# I learned my lesson on upgrade gold



## Stevej72 (Aug 22, 2007)

I got a call this morning from a customer who bought an upgrade gold Sierra from me this past May for a gift. The gold has already started to wear off.  I thought the upgade gold was supposed to be better than 24K so I have used it on some of my pens.  I guess in the future I will have to stick with titanium gold, which I will use when I repair the pen for this guy.  Hard lesson to learn as now I have to wonder how many other pens are out there that are wearing the finish off and the customer is just telling other not to buy from me.

Will the same problem happen with 10K gold?


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## mrcook4570 (Aug 22, 2007)

> _Originally posted by Stevej72_
> <br />
> Will the same problem happen with 10K gold?



Yep.  Titanium gold is the only readily available gold that will last.  CSU has a very thick plated 22k gold (which I believe they call 'the gold standard') which also carries a lifetime guarantee, but I believe they may be phasing it out.


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## Rifleman1776 (Aug 22, 2007)

A lot of jewelry is 10K gold and is pretty durable. I use only Tn when available. Some kits only come with 10K as best choice and I'll use it if I have to. But never again 24K.


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## Randy_ (Aug 22, 2007)

> _Originally posted by Rifleman1776_
> <br /><b>A lot of jewelry is 10K gold and is pretty durable</b>. I use only Tn when available. Some kits only come with 10K as best choice and I'll use it if I have to. But never again 24K.



But I will bet that the plating is also a lot thicker, too!!  Durability of the plating is a function of two things.....quality of the plating and the intensity of use.  24k plating on a pen locked in a display case will last pretty close to forever.  There have been lots of posts about the 10k plating not lasting very long either.

I think anyone who uses other than the T/N is asking for trouble.


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## ed4copies (Aug 22, 2007)

I have one guy I sold 10K (ARtisan series from CSUSA) who can make it all "silver color" in less than a month - he did it twice before I made him a TNgold.  He hasn't been back to complsin since.[][]


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## gketell (Aug 22, 2007)

There are some people who are just plain caustic: my father corrodes stainless steel watches.  

But if you go to the CSUSA web site they have done a good job of describing all the different platings and their relative durabilities.

GK


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## Petricore (Aug 22, 2007)

this is really too bad. I have a customer who insisted on an americana kit which only comes in 10K gold. I hope he doesnt suffer from the same problem.


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## ed4copies (Aug 22, 2007)

If it helps soothe your concerns, I sold HUNDREDS of the 10K cigar, from the late 1990's to 2004.  Only a couple came back.  And, I see most of my customers once a year or more (they travel to the same craft shows, and so do we.)

So the failure rate is NOT real high.


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## Texatdurango (Aug 22, 2007)

> _Originally posted by Petricore_
> <br />this is really too bad. I have a customer who insisted on an americana kit which only comes in 10K gold. I hope he doesnt suffer from the same problem.


The way I see it, if a customer insists on one of the cheaper kits with cheaper plating, all you can do is educate them on the wear ability of different plating available and forewarn them of the consequences so they can't complain when it starts wearing off.


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## Stevej72 (Aug 22, 2007)

Thanks for all the input. I think I will just let the customers know that the cheaper pens will wear quicker and that is why they are cheaper.  Kinda like you get what you pay for.


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## Randy_ (Aug 22, 2007)

You can certainly do that; but if I were paying $40-$60 for a pen and you told me it was going to have its finish wear off in 3 months, I would be very unhappy,  I certainly would not purchase such a pen and would seriously question the quality of other products from the same vendor.  

I wouldn't want my name associated with a pen that was going to go bad in three months regardless of how cheaply I might sell it.


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## Stevej72 (Aug 22, 2007)

Good point Randy, what is the best way to clear out about 10 or 12 pens from my inventory. Should I give them away and tell people why or sell them for $15 and tell people why?


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## Petricore (Aug 22, 2007)

> _Originally posted by Randy__
> <br />You can certainly do that; but if I were paying $40-$60 for a pen and you told me it was going to have its finish wear off in 3 months, I would be very unhappy,  I certainly would not purchase such a pen and would seriously question the quality of other products from the same vendor.
> 
> I wouldn't want my name associated with a pen that was going to go bad in three months regardless of how cheaply I might sell it.



I feel the same way. We need good quality gold products because customers demand gold !

This is a great thread I am glad for all the replies, you have helped ease my concerns


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## Randy_ (Aug 22, 2007)

Steve:  That is a tricky question and you will probably get some different thoughts.  Some guys will tell you to put them in the trash and eat the loss.  You could disassemble them and reuse the wood and save the transmissions and refills.

If the financial loss will be painful, you could try to sell them as "SECONDS" (with explanation) for just the cost of materials.  Big companies do that all of the time. 

You could also use them as "gimme" pens (with explanation) and hope that some of the recipients will buy from you in the future.  I don't know that there is a right answer; but if the wood you used was pretty nice, I would probably vote to salvage it.

One disadvantage of putting the pens out as gimmes or seconds is that the "explanation" will most certainly get detached from the pen and your name may still get attached to second class work.

Think about it and do what best suites your thinking.

In my house, pens get used up pretty regularly.  You may just want to keep them for your own use??


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## bonsaibill (Aug 22, 2007)

I made my boss a slimline using the cheapest gold from AS and he has carried / used it every work day since.  He has went through two refills and the pen looks fine.


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## airrat (Aug 22, 2007)

I wont sell slimline with 24k gold anymore, I only use TN for them.   I have made numerous cigars in the 10k and "upgrade" gold with only one return.   I have been using a "upgrade" gold cigar pen for a year with no fading.  This seems to be the only style I have not had issues with on fading.


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## Rudy Vey (Aug 22, 2007)

For several years I only make and sell pens from quality pen kits that are either Titanium Nitride (Ti-Gold), Platinum, Rhodium, Chrome or satin Nickel plated. I have seen too many of my early pens loosing their gold plating within weeks or months. My personal testing shows that even after over three years of heavy use a Ti Gold plated flat top pen looks still like the first day. I have replaced several pen parts (like clips etc) and even pens for free. 
If you sell pens for a good price, the customer can expect to get the highest possible quality in plating, wood or acrylic blank as well as workmanship.


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## Stevej72 (Aug 22, 2007)

> One disadvantage of putting the pens out as gimmes or seconds is that the "explanation" will most certainly get detached from the pen and your name may still get attached to second class work.



That reminds me of a story a friend told me some years ago about a guy he knew.  When this guy started out in the auto body business some of the kids in town who couldn't afford a decent paint job would ask for just a quick cheap paint job.  When the paint started to peal off the neglected to tell their friends that they got what they paid for.  Needless to say the guy didn't make it in the auto body business after that.

I think I will give them away but only to close enough family and friends. No, maybe not.  I'll have to think about it.


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## Texatdurango (Aug 22, 2007)

> _Originally posted by Rudy Vey_
> <br />.... If you sell pens for a good price, the customer can expect to get the highest possible quality in plating, wood or acrylic blank as well as workmanship.


I think Rudy has summed this whole situation up nicely.  I think we all pretty well know that certain plating is going to wear off quicker than others.  Knowing that, in my opinion, one would be foolhardy to continue using the cheaper plating, if they are concerned about the quality of pen they are giving/selling to someone.

It really doesnâ€™t matter if Joe Blow or Sally Smith has had that 10k slim line for eight years and still looks as good as the day it was made.  There will always be that one or two in a hundred exception but you canâ€™t market your pens with those odds.

My favorite kit is the Jr Gent from CSUSA.  The 10k version costs $7.99, the titanium costs $12.50 and the Rhodium costs $13.80.   Because of cost, I have ordered the cheaper pen but when I learned of the plating wearing off quicker, I have gone with the better plating now and always will.  

To me, the extra $4 - $5 per kit for the better plating is just noise lost in the wind when you are selling the pen for upwards of $60 or giving it to someone to enjoy for years to come.

Just another opinion....[]


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## drayman (Aug 22, 2007)

> _Originally posted by Texatdurango_
> <br />
> 
> 
> ...







and if a lot of us did the same thing and stopped buying the cheaper plating the suppliers would demand the better platings. then we all will be happy.just my 2 peneth. regards colin.


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## Randy_ (Aug 22, 2007)

I don't feel comfortable selling pen kits with 24k plating; but I'm glade those kits are around.  I hate to think of spending the extra money on T?N or Platinum kits when I was just learning to craft pens.


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## Russianwolf (Aug 23, 2007)

okay, since it;s general opinion that the 24k kits wear poorly, does anyone sell a Cigar fountain that is a better plating (I'm only aware of the 24k kit from PSI) and also the PSI Sculpted kits?


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## Randy_ (Aug 23, 2007)

CSUSA has the cigar pen in 24k, 10k, Blk Ti, and Rhodium.  AS has the cigar pen in half a dozen or more different platings including T/N.

Now that I think about it, PSI has their cigar pen in several platings.  The platinum and black titanium should be long lasting platings.

CSUSA has a filigree kit with a rhodium plating.


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## hughbie (Aug 23, 2007)

randy, i have to agree with you.  compared to most of you here, i am a novice.  as you stated, if i had to start out with $10-$15 dollar kits, i probably wouldn't have started in the 'hobby'.
everything thing has it's place in the big realm of things.  i have graduated to some stronger platings but i'm always checking with my 'past' customers to make sure all is well.  and in the last 3 months, no problems at all. 

and everyone that i have sold to, works with me and we all work in a lead acid factory.  you talk about hard on metals?

i have found out that acrylics hold up well to being subjected to sulfuric acid.  rather impressed.  i'm collecting time and data for future sales pitches!  LOL


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## kent4Him (Aug 23, 2007)

Now I sell mostly Europeans.  I'd love to move to the Tn Gold, but my customers like the artisan center bands.  Once they start making Tn center bands with a better design, I will start buying them.


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## gerryr (Aug 23, 2007)

I have stopped making some pens either because of design flaws(any kit with metal to metal threads) or because of poor plating selection.  I stopped using even 10K gold over a year ago and 24K and Upgrade Gold even before that.  I've had requests for Berea Flattop American filigree ballpoint in gold and I've turned them down.  I'll make them in chrome, but never again in gold.  I would much rather lose a sale because I won't offer something that doesn't last than lose a lot of sales because word gets out that what I sell doesn't hold up.  I'm not looking for just one time sales, I'm interested in establishing long term relationships with customers and you cannot do that if the plating quickly wears off.


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## Texatdurango (Aug 23, 2007)

> _Originally posted by hughbie_
> <br />randy, i have to agree with you.  compared to most of you here, i am a novice.  as you stated, if i had to start out with $10-$15 dollar kits, i probably wouldn't have started in the 'hobby'.



Guys, Please, letâ€™s keep things in perspective!  No one is advocating that those just starting out go and buy a handful of $10 - $15 kits to practice on, at least not that I read.  I doubt anyone goes out and buys a lathe, a set of tools, some kits, blanks and supplies, goes home and starts cranking out pens for the upcoming craft show the following weekend.

The first line of the first post in this thread clearly sets the stage where I was directing my thoughts towardsâ€¦

_â€œI got a call this morning from a customerâ€¦â€_ then goes on to say _â€œ...now I have to wonder how many other pens are out there that are wearing the finish off and the customer is just telling other not to buy from me.â€_

This tells me that Steve is not working on his third or fourth pen. 

I think the pens with the cheaper plating are just fine, fun to turn and experiment with but have their limitations.  When I hear members talking about building their business, expanding their customer base and striving to portray quality craftsmanship, I doubt the $1.30 slim line or even the $4.80 Sierra is their mainstay.


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## ed4copies (Aug 23, 2007)

> _Originally posted by Russianwolf_
> <br />okay, since it;s general opinion that the 24k kits wear poorly, does anyone sell a Cigar fountain that is a better plating (I'm only aware of the 24k kit from PSI) and also the PSI Sculpted kits?



Mike,
I believe you will find PSI claims the nib on that kit is Titanium. (I don't know if it is or isn't - I just don't believe the "catalog propaganda")

That's where the majority of the wear will be.

However, the threads on the "posting" end suck!!

I, too, liked the kit initially.


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## ctwxlvr (Aug 23, 2007)

I have a few 10k and 24k pens in my inventory, and I tell the customer I do not warranty the plating on these pens, they are also some of my cheapest pens with little or no profit. Yet I still sell them at least until they are gone. all of my high end pens are gold Ti or gold plat finishes. Adding a sterling silver finish some time this week. I also have a handout on my table most of the time describing the finishes and how to care for the pens.


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## babyblues (Aug 23, 2007)

> _Originally posted by Rifleman1776_
> <br />A lot of jewelry is 10K gold and is pretty durable. I use only Tn when available. Some kits only come with 10K as best choice and I'll use it if I have to. But never again 24K.


True, but that's probably solid 10k gold.  People also treat jewelry with much more care and caution than they would a pen.


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## karlkuehn (Aug 23, 2007)

This is all interesting reading you guys. I've seen some of these same issues with plating and am now convinced that it's worth the extra $$ to buy the tough plating kits, at least for stuff that I'm going to be comfortable selling for anything over $30. I also agree that it's nice to have the cheaper stuff out there to practice on, though, or, like the others, I'd have never gotten out of the gates with this hobby.

I'm in the process of working my way through all my lower end kits, and will probably just sell them for enough to pay for the materials that it took to make them, with a disclaimer explaining the differences in plating.

It's nice to read that lots of you have the same questions and concerns that I go through, and appreciate reading the good responses to a great post. []


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## Rifleman1776 (Aug 24, 2007)

> _Originally posted by babyblues_
> <br />
> 
> 
> ...



Dunno, 'bout that. I wear two gold rings, both 14K, softer than 10K, one is my wedding band, the other my lodge ring. They have been worn almost constantly, one for more than 42 years, the other more than 25 years. They have been worn while doing all kinds of work, including farming, hunting, etc. Neither shows extreme signs of wear. My pens stay in my pocket except when writing and don't get any abuse.


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## Texatdurango (Aug 24, 2007)

> _Originally posted by Rifleman1776_
> ....Dunno, 'bout that. I wear two gold rings, both 14K, softer than 10K, one is my wedding band, the other my lodge ring. They have been worn almost constantly, one for more than 42 years, the other more than 25 years. They have been worn while doing all kinds of work, including farming, hunting, etc. Neither shows extreme signs of wear. My pens stay in my pocket except when writing and don't get any abuse.



Gold and gold plating are two different things.  I don't think one should assume that just because their gold ring will last forever that their gold plated pen will.  

To see the difference take your gold ring over to the buffing wheel and hit it with some white diamond compound, shines it right up doesn't it?  Now take your gold plated pen over and hit it with the same white diamond... oops, no more gold plating! []


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## jimmyers (Aug 24, 2007)

I am trying to figure this out as I read so bear with me.

I purchased a PSI starter kit that  included 5 gold slimline Pens and Pencil kits around a year ago. The first thing I made was a pencil.

Now I have been carrying this and using it for close to a year now and I don't know if this is just gold colored stuff or what but there is no wear or chipping or anything and still looks as good as the day I made it.

Well it actually looks a little better since the oil from my fingers have turned the rosewood a unique color.

Is this just a cheap kit using gold colored stuff or is the plating on the least expensive kit just that good?


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## gerryr (Aug 24, 2007)

Frank,
Those rings are not gold plated, unless they are marked as such.  The 14K is 14/24th gold and balance is likely silver.  The 10K is 10/24th gold and the balance probably silver.  There is a huge difference in durability between solid 10K gold and 10K gold plating.


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## Randy_ (Aug 24, 2007)

> _Originally posted by Texatdurango_
> <br />.....Gold and gold plating are two different things.  I don't think one should assume that just because their gold ring will last forever that their gold plated pen will......



George is right or wrong depending upon how you choose to interpret his answer.  All other things being equal, the 10k gold in Frank's ring will have an identical composition to the 10K gold used to plate his pen kits.  So in that respect George has misspoken.  

On the other hand the plating on a pen kit is most likely about 3 microns thick....a little more than one ten thousandth of an inch!!  If we assume that Frank's ring is 1/8" thick, then it is more than 1200 times as thick as the pen plating.  If a pen looses its plating in 6 months, then, at the same rate, it would take 200 years for Frank's ring to wear away.  We all know that Frank is nearly as old as dirt so his ring probably has a lot of miles on it; but the comparison between solid jewelry and plated parts is really not as instructive as we might think.

George is absolutely correct in pointing out that plating can disappear in a hurry under the right conditions as there is almost nothing there to start off with!!


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## Randy_ (Aug 24, 2007)

> _Originally posted by jimmyers_
> <br />.....Now I have been carrying this and using it for close to a year now and I don't know if this is just gold colored stuff or what but there is no wear or chipping or anything and still looks as good as the day I made it.....



According to the PSI catalog, their gold plated hardware is coated with a special epoxy coating and has a life-time guarantee.  It is highly likely that this stuff will retain is "looks" for longer than uncoated gold plating.  Whether it will last for a lifetime or not is another question.  It may just be advertising fluff.  The great majority of people will loose their pens or put them through the washer before a warranty claim might be necessary.


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## karlkuehn (Aug 24, 2007)

What kind of wear have you guys been seeing on the 'satin' stuff? It seems to have an epoxy coating as well, and so far, they've been holding up pretty well for me, aside from the occasional scratch. 

As a carpenter, my t-shirt is usually encrusted with any number of abrasives throughout the day, drywall dust, hardwood sawdust, just plain dust/dirt, and the ever-popular 'sweat until your shirt starts to look like a dried out salt-lick' grime. Whenever someone sees whatever pen I have with me that day, they always ask to handle it, and I always wipe it with my shirt first, at which point I might as well say, 'Sure, one second, lemme just run this piece of 80 grit emery cloth over it to wipe off the fine layer of 600 grit dust!"


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## hughbie (Aug 24, 2007)

as for your question about the satin coatings....the first cigar i ever made was a rust synthetic with a satin copper kit.  i work in a lead/acid battery factory in the quality control department.  believe it or not....both the blank AND the satin kit are holding up great!  i never thought this stuff would stand well against battery acid fumes and the occansional smear from my fingers.


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