# serious issue with lathe



## shlomo (Mar 27, 2011)

i had started turning maybe 6 years ago in 5th grade. i made many pens in those first few years. i am self taught and every thing i know was learnt through trial and error. about 3 years ago i started to go to high school out of town and a year later my family ended up moving. to make a long story short, i have been out of the turning scene for a while and want to get back in the program. in the past couple of months i have made a few pens, and all my pen have an issue. *the are off center*. i dont know the technical term for this issue, but i cannot sell pens with such a defect. the wood protrudes from the bushing/kit on one side, and is shallow on the other side. in an attempt to troubleshoot the issue, i switched my mandrill but to no avail. then for the first time i watched my lathe very carefully and noticed the shaft is seriously off center. a friend of mine who is fairly savvy with machines took a look and attempted to take it apart but the set screws he tried to unscrew wouldnt budge. he thinks its a bearing issue but before i attempt to tinker with an expensive tool, i would like to get some ideas from the more experienced. if it makes a difference my lathe is a rikon, roughly 6 years old bought from wood craft. thank you for any attempt of answering my question.


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## Displaced Canadian (Mar 27, 2011)

I had a similar issue about a year ago and I had to replace my live center with a 60 degree one because the tip of the factory one was worn. If you need to adjust the whole tail end I have been told it is best to use shims to make it line up. Just my guess there are better qualified people than me who will soon chime in to help.


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## keithkarl2007 (Mar 27, 2011)

shlomo said:


> i had started turning maybe 6 years ago in 5th grade. i made many pens in those first few years. i am self taught and every thing i know was learnt through trial and error. about 3 years ago i started to go to high school out of town and a year later my family ended up moving. to make a long story short, i have been out of the turning scene for a while and want to get back in the program. in the past couple of months i have made a few pens, and all my pen have an issue. *the are off center*. i dont know the technical term for this issue, but i cannot sell pens with such a defect. the wood protrudes from the bushing/kit on one side, and is shallow on the other side. in an attempt to troubleshoot the issue, i switched my mandrill but to no avail. then for the first time i watched my lathe very carefully and noticed the shaft is seriously off center. a friend of mine who is fairly savvy with machines took a look and attempted to take it apart but the set screws he tried to unscrew wouldnt budge. he thinks its a bearing issue but before i attempt to tinker with an expensive tool, i would like to get some ideas from the more experienced. if it makes a difference my lathe is a rikon, roughly 6 years old bought from wood craft. thank you for any attempt of answering my question.



Sounds like the ends of the blanks aren't milled square to the brass tubes.


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## shlomo (Mar 27, 2011)

Displaced Canadian, thanks for the prompt reply! i am sorry for my turning illiteracy, but is the live center the tail stock? if so i hope i was clear that the problem is in the main shaft. the tailstock is fine  but the headstock is the issue. if i misunderstood your response please clarify what you mean. thanks.

keithkarl2007, i have made sure my blanks are true this seems not to be the issue


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## Silver (Mar 27, 2011)

shlomo said:


> Displaced Canadian, thanks for the prompt reply! i am sorry for my turning illiteracy, but is the live center the tail stock? if so i hope i was clear that the problem is in the main shaft. the tailstock is fine  but the headstock is the issue. if i misunderstood your response please clarify what you mean. thanks.
> 
> keithkarl2007, i have made sure my blanks are true this seems not to be the issue



Are you sure it's the headstock? 

You say you have moved house and re-located ! 

Have you bolted your lathe down to a floor that is not level or not levelled your lathe up so the head stock and tail stock are not aligned in your new workshop? 

You never had this problem before you moved did you?

Eamonn


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## Displaced Canadian (Mar 27, 2011)

The live center is on the tailstock. If you put a straight mandrel in the headstock how far off is it from the mandrel end to the tailstock? Would it be possible for you to post a picture?


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## bitshird (Mar 27, 2011)

Are the bearings making any noise? or can you move the spindle from side to side or up and down? also try turning the spindle  while holding it down or to the side, Use a piece of dowel rod in the spindle hole and turn by the handle, hopefully your lathe has a handle on the tail end of the spindle, see if you can feel any thing like a flat spot, or you can move the spindle about , then I'd go along with your friend and say bearings.
What Displaced Canadian was inferring is that the exact same thing can happen when using the live center that nearly all wood lathes come with, the point of the live center doesn't match the counter taper in the end of a mandrel, and can also cause out of round issues, as can over tightening the tailstock/live center, even a 60 degree one like you are supposed to use against the mandrel, or even tightening the nut on the mandrel. BUT check the bearings, sitting for a long time can cause bad things.


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## Rick_G (Mar 27, 2011)

I'm assuming you are using a morse taper live center that slides into the headstock.  Check carefully there is no dirt on either the live center or inside the morse taper shaft.  It doesn't take much to throw off the tip of the live center to where you can see it move as the lathe turns.  I keep mine clean with a rag or paper towel wetted with DNA.


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## shlomo (Mar 27, 2011)

yet again thank you all for the help. 
1. as i go through old inventory, it appears that it had started before i moved. i did not drop or hit it with anything as far as i can remember.
2. this might be a problem itself but i have never bolted my lathe down. it does not wobble and has never been a concern
3. i have attached a bad picture but i hope it illustrates what im talking about. this problem is apparent even without attachments like a mandrill 
4. the tip of my tailstock is replaced but i dont think thats important
5. there is no sound, but when you rotate the shaft by hand you hit i small grainy spot. there is also no play.
now that i have reviewed the parts manual i can talk in a  languege you all can understand. the spindle shaft/hand wheel assembly is the issue. the tail stock if anything straightens out the mandrill.i am very carefull to not over tighten it


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## simomatra (Mar 27, 2011)

Looks as if a head stock bearing has gone, there is a tutorial on how to change them out in the library or any wood shop or mechanic will do it for you. It should not cost that much.


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## Acornelius (Mar 27, 2011)

If you put a dead center in you headstock and move the tailsock up close do the points of the dead center and live center look in line?  Rotate the headstock by hand and see if the tip of the dead center runs true.  Use the tip of the live center as a visual reference.


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## wolftat (Mar 27, 2011)

What type of lathe do you have? 

I would suggest for starters buying a 60degree live center that will match the 60 degree end of your mandrel, also replacing your mandrel as they do tend to bend over time.
  Another possible problem can be your tailstock may be worn and not true which again can happen over time.


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## shlomo (Mar 27, 2011)

Acornelius, the dead center does not line up with the tail stock, when you manualy spin it you see that the dead center goes up and down.

as far as my lathe it is a rikon

after hearing and ruling out all these possible problems, sam i think your right. i looked in the library and found the instructions you mentioned. when i take care of the problem i will try to post the out come. you guys were a great help, and i hope anyone who comes across this thread, and is dealing with the same problem finds you guys as helpfull as i did!


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## dogcatcher (Mar 27, 2011)

I don't believe your live center has a 60 degree point.  That could be part of your problem.


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## Lenny (Mar 27, 2011)

dogcatcher said:


> I don't believe your live center has a 60 degree point. That could be part of your problem.


 
Agreed! Many people think the live center that comes with the lathe when you purchase it is a 60 degree center.... It usually isn't! 

You want something like this ...
http://www.pennstateind.com/store/LCENTLT2.html

May not be your only problem but it could be one of the problems!


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## Draygore (Mar 27, 2011)

Could be bearing, but I also wonder if he hasn't bent his mandrel.


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## Andrew_K99 (Mar 27, 2011)

As suggested put a dead center in the head stock and move the tail stock with live center so they are tip to tip, they should align perfectly.  Looking at your picture the center of the mandrel doesn't line up with the live center, I bet the dead center will yield the same result.  If this is true you'll need to align the tail stock to the head stock.  You did mention it was a new/different tail stock, this is probably when the issue started.

AK


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## studioso (Mar 28, 2011)

shlomo,

before you take apart your spindle, MAKE SURE YOUR MORSE TAPER IS CLEAN!
it's very possible that the inside of the spindle has some dirt or perhaps a burr the will prevent any attachment to sit properly. 
properly clean the inside with a brush and some solvent, mineral spirit or something that will not cause rust, and check it carefully with your finger. of course, make sure the dead center/mandrel is clean too...

I doubt that your bearing are the cause, if there is no play and you don't feel a rough spot when you turn the spindle by hand.

if nothing works, try saying a kapitl tehilim!


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## hilltopper46 (Mar 28, 2011)

Hey everybody!!!! Look at the picture shlomo included of his mandrel and tailstock. He needs to get a 60-degree center before he does or tries anything else.

Yelling mode now off.:biggrin:


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## Robert Taylor (Mar 28, 2011)

i agree with studioso. if a dead center is going up and down while manually turning the headstock spindle i believe dirt in the morse taper is the culprit. i also agree that he needs a sixty degree live center for his tailstock.


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## nava1uni (Mar 28, 2011)

It is important to clean both the headstock and tail stock channels. You said that you have a Rikon. Have you called and spoken to anyone at Rikon?  I also own a Rikon and on two occasions I have had a problem and called them.  They are very good at helping solve issues with their products.  Give them a call and see if they can help you.


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## InvisibleMan (Mar 29, 2011)

bettyt44720 said:


> i agree with studioso. if a dead center is going up and down while manually turning the headstock spindle i believe dirt in the morse taper is the culprit. i also agree that he needs a sixty degree live center for his tailstock.




YES!!  I had this problem just a few weeks ago.  Out of round pens and a dead center point that "orbited" the live center point when turned.  I cleaned out the morse taper, and all is now well.

Hopefully that's the problem.  Easy and cheap fix


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## simomatra (Mar 29, 2011)

Can you put a dial indicator on the threaded section of the head stock? If this is running out then you have a bearing prob.em. If it is not then it is dirt in the morse taper.


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## OLDMAN5050 (Mar 29, 2011)

my rikon has not been a problem, I do think along the line of need to put 60 degree live center in tail and 60 degree dead center in the headstock to chech the alignment.That is the only way to check.. I had an adjustable mandrel that had somehow was off center, replace it and have had no other problems.


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## PenPal (Mar 29, 2011)

Twas interesting to me to converse on abstract symptoms. Two certain actions needed are a known reference from the head stock and a known reference from the tail stock ie reliable and accurate exits from both to meeting one another. Simply an engineering approach, no guesses. Rikon supplier Woodcraft, nearest agent utilise their resources. From using metal lathes this method is infallible namely.

1.Lightly ream the morse taper in the head stock and tail stock, then use a new dead centre in the head and one in the tail stock.

2. Bring them together in the normal way you would until the two points are nearly touching, insert a fine feeler guage wnding the points carefully togetherish having locked the tailstockas you would in use winding to get the points near in the first instance.

3. Now any deviation up,down,forward or backwards becomes obvious, then you are dealing with facts.

If you have an accurate chuck and a drill shank ie before the drill is formed on it held in the chuck then you can see the result at the distance apart you would have in normal use and once again know something another fact.

You now have the basis to form an opinion and make basic decisions before checking out of round taper holes in the head and tail stock (not unknown), rail sliding tail stock the wrong height or sloppy fit slide (side to side movement when locked in position).

Altogether we all expect to buy a cheap as possible dead accurate wood lathe this is an oxy moron, wood lathes are at best compromises to me it is a matter of doing all you can to find out before the purchase calmly seeking dealers who care especially if you are new to machinery and the other good and safe thing to do is ally yourself with a Wood Group where invariably there will be either qualified help or experienced people willing to assist.
If you buy second hand same rules apply.

In your case exhaust the recources of Rikon dealerships the known supplier of your lathe.

The very best I can suggest from 6,000 miles away. Liken it to a Doctors diagnosis it needs care, experience and knowledge to safely progress from the unknown to the known. THIS IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN tradesmen and CRAFT People seek the truth if not settle for the best with what you have, the other step is to turn between centres not using mandrels in the library there is info about this as well.

PLEASE HAVE SUCCESS all of the suggestions so far have a caveat so step by step, record the results, know for sure each determination, seek good advice and prove the steps.

Kind regards based on my 76 yrs of blundering through this world hoping to buy low and acheive high results. THE WOOD LATHE i use for pens is made by a true engineering organisation used to making them using the same principles as making metal lathes and a further observation is so many wood lathes cost so much more than metal lathes. THE PURCHASER OF A METAL LATHE DEMANDS FAR MORE HIGH STANDARDS THAN WOOD LATHE 
BUYERS.

please excuse CAPS APPEARING AT RANDOM TOO TIRED TO REWRITE.

Kind regards Peter.


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## shlomo (Apr 21, 2011)

*I'M BACK!*

well, i finaly put my lathe back together after replacing the bushings, and what do you know, it still spins off true. after listening to my friends we took apart my lathe and switched the baerings. now we measured with a dial indicator and indeed that was not the issue. my friend is taking my mandrill back to house to see if that is the culprit. i will try to post more info tomorrow when my friend gets back to me and we call rikon. as for now i will get me self a 60 degree live center and hope that helps some:frown: 

(and very funny studioso :wink


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