# If you're thinking of using a middle man . . .



## DocStram (May 15, 2011)

This message is to those of  you who design and produce your own pen blanks or some other product that might appeal to IAP members . . .  I would encourage you to carefully consider not using a "middle man" to sell your wares.  I prefer to buy directly from you.  I know it might be more convenient to have a  middle man sell your goods on your behalf, but I like dealing with the person who actually made the item him/herself.  

I recognize this as being a personal preference. 

But the fact of the matter is that I'll take the mom and pop local shop owner any day over Walmart.


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## thewishman (May 15, 2011)

Al, I like buying things made by people I know (kinda) and trust. It is very convenient and MUCH cheaper shipping-wise to buy those same things from a trusted aggregator.
My problem is that I usually need just a couple of pieces from one supplier at any one time, so shipping makes up a larger percentage of my costs. 

Long live the indivdual producer - no matter how I get to purchase their wares.


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## BRobbins629 (May 15, 2011)

I disagree as well.  Most who sell their blanks through middle people are well known on the forum and very accessible for questions and dealing with issues.  Some of us are are better at art and some are better at sales.  The challenges and costs of dealing with individuals, particularly when many are international make it much easier to deal with a coordinator.  To equate the ones that sell here with WalMart is a little disingenuous.  They may not be the producers but are closer to mom and pop shops than big box stores.  Though many prefer to also sell their pens themselves, I always prefer a gallery.  I never was cut our for sales and have no desire.


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## alphageek (May 15, 2011)

thewishman said:


> Long live the indivdual producer - no matter how I get to purchase their wares.



I agree Chris...  

And luckily for most of the pen blank producers there is a mixture of both methods.  I don't think there is many of our 'small' producers here that won't answer direct contact either.  Heck, I know that many of the small producers that have a sales outlet 'middle man' will also go out of there way to do something special for people that contact them directly.  

Congrats to any of them that manage to sell in a 'middleman' space, be it Woodcraft, Exoticblanks, IPD, WnW, or any of the other middle men.   I can definitely understand the draw of using a seller.  Not only do you get the extra exposure, you don't have to deal with the nitty gritty of selling, shipping, etc and can concentrate on your creations.


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## Texatdurango (May 15, 2011)

Bruce I understand what you are saying but how much "sales" experience is required to post a thread saying... "I have some blanks for sale, here are the photos, here are the prices, PM for paypal details"?

Some use the SOYP to showcase their work so they have good exposure already.  I would think it would be an easy thing to do.


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## Texatdurango (May 15, 2011)

alphageek said:


> thewishman said:
> 
> 
> > Long live the indivdual producer - no matter how I get to purchase their wares.
> ...


 
You still have to package things up and sell to the middle man don't you! :biggrin:


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## ed4copies (May 15, 2011)

My simplest suggestion:  If you want to sell five, sell them yourself.  If you'd like to sell 500, send them to me and I will sell them, package them and deliver them, as well as talking to the folks who couldn't figure out exactly what your instructions meant.

Oh, and I will print those instructions and include them with each product.

Oh, and I will deal with PayPal, whom some have said they don't like.  Or the credit card company.

Yes, we answer our phone in the evening and on weekends.

But, yes you could do all that yourself, if you prefer.


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## alphageek (May 15, 2011)

Texatdurango said:


> You still have to package things up and sell to the middle man don't you! :biggrin:



Sure.. Once for hundreds of blanks! (and probably on their OWN schedule).   I'd bet that most of our best blank makers have other things that are more important (I'll choose Jeff Powell for example - just because I am familiar with him). 

Jeff drives a truck for a 'real job' (last that I knew of).   Mix in there posting ads here, responding to ads, tracking ads, filling boxes, getting to the post office, etc are all things that I'm sure that he has no desire to do blank by blank.

However, he does fit the rule that I said.   I had a special request, contacted him directly and he did things great for me (and I read other stories on here of him doing it direct).  

Flip to the other side... Take away the middleman... That can be bad for BOTH sides.   The blank maker has to work much harder and thus has less time to make blanks.   Therefore, not only does he make less  - there is also less blanks to go around so we the buyers lose because its harder to get the product!


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## DocStram (May 15, 2011)

ed4copies said:


> My simplest suggestion:  If you want to sell five, sell them yourself.  If you'd like to sell 500, send them to me and I will sell them, package them and deliver them, as well as talking to the folks who couldn't figure out exactly what your instructions meant.
> 
> Oh, and I will print those instructions and include them with each product.
> 
> ...




Ed . . . I swear . . .  you're the "Don King of the Penturning World".  You never miss a chance to promote your business.   500??   :biggrin:


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## ed4copies (May 15, 2011)

When others state why my "business model" is bad, I try to enlighten them.

Kinda like a teacher-professor explaining the facts that are printed in the text book.


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## DurocShark (May 15, 2011)

I personally have enough time left over each week to EITHER make blanks, or deal with shipping/selling/website/PayPal issues/etc etc etc. 

I'm happy to chat about the blanks I make with anybody. Really! But I don't want to do all that other dirty stuff. :wink: There are other people around who are MUCH better at that than I'd ever be. 

I just wish I could keep up with that darn middleman...


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## ed4copies (May 15, 2011)

Dawn just pointed out your meaning, Doc.

Sorry it escaped me.  Yes, 500.  We have purchased over a thousand RhinoPlastic blanks in the past couple months.  I will not discuss our partners' sales, as it is personal information related to their income.


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## BRobbins629 (May 15, 2011)

Texatdurango said:


> Bruce I understand what you are saying but how much "sales" experience is required to post a thread saying... "I have some blanks for sale, here are the photos, here are the prices, PM for paypal details"?


Yes that is the easy part and if that was all that was involved in selling I might try it.  Putting a price on it, shipping multiple times and dealing with customers is just something I prefer to leave to others better suited.  If someone wants to sell themselves, that's fine - they may enjoy it, but there is no need to put down a group of vendors who offer an outlet for those less inclined.


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## DocStram (May 16, 2011)

Here's the essence of my post:

If you are an IAP member who is making items to sell  . . . . and you're trying to decide whether to sell the items yourself or through a reseller . . . .  I would prefer to purchase directly from the individual.  

I began visiting IAP in 2005, and then joined a year later.  I've watched the trend of what I see as  "the over-commercialization of IAP" and it troubles me.  I sometimes wonder if that's one of the reasons that some of "the old timers" have left.


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## alphageek (May 16, 2011)

Doc, 

I am curious about your comments even though I disagree with you on the fact that IAP is over commercialized (because to me it is the least "commercial" woodworking site that I frequent.  Most others have banner ads, hawk magazine subscriptions, plans, etc.).

I am curious about your suggestion.   Today we have over a dozen people who sell for themselves in individual classifieds.   The volume of classified post volume is at least an order of magnitude greater than the business posts.   With the middlemen having pulled about a dozen or so more of the active smaller pen makers out of daily posts to classifieds, I'm confused how them selling on their own through here would help.   I would think it would make things worse?  

As for why people have left... I don't think there is any 1 reason.  I bet there is many, however life never stands still... Change is a fact of life and people will come and people will go.


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## Smitty37 (May 16, 2011)

*Both*

Hmmm, I'm a vendor. For most of my purchases thru this forum I'm a hobbiest,who buys at the offered price.

That being said, I buy both from vendors and from individuals.  Keep in mind that most vendors have things to sell that individuals are not selling.  kits, refills, finish materials, parts, etc but they need to sell things like blanks that individuals are making to round out their offerings.  You won't get much of one without the other.  

Frankly if I have a customer ask me where to get blanks, I'm very happy to be able to point them to someone who can give them a wide choice all the time.  

I see certain individuals who sell for a couple of days, sell out then they're gone for a month or so making more blanks....wouldn't it be nice if one of the vendors was carrying their blanks and you could get them anytime?  I think so


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## Russianwolf (May 16, 2011)

I'm another that will work with people when they contact em, but I sell to Exotics also. The only rule I have is my price will be equal to her price. I think Exotics is a great "one stop shop" and know that many will buy the blanks I import (IBO, UKBO and Sandringham woods) from them as they can easily reduce their shipping per item, whereas if you contact em directly you are going to get the blanks at a higher shipping per item cost since that all you can get from me.

Now I'm gearing up to make the Dichroic blanks and they will be available through Exotics also for two reasons. 1) Dawn made the originals and I wouldn't consider selling them through another venue for that reason and 2)my previous experience in working with her on the imported blanks.

But I will also sell directly when someone contacts me, just following that one rule I mentioned earlier.


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## DurocShark (May 16, 2011)

Yeah, and if you buy direct, you don't get the goodies Exotics tosses in the box. :biggrin:


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## maxwell_smart007 (May 16, 2011)

I would really like it if this thread did not become a flaming topic.  

Al is stating that he prefers individuals to sell directly to him, for whatever reason.   
Others prefer one-stop-shops - that much is obvious. 

Luckily, the IAP has both one-stop-shop vendors, and individuals willing to sell directly.  No need to make a choice!  

Andrew


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## IPD_Mr (May 16, 2011)

Well said Andrew.  Everyone has their preference and that should be respected even if it does not agree with you.


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## penhead (May 16, 2011)

Totally agree 007 with what you say...

My preference, which is in my opinion, what makes IAP so great. As 007 said, customers AND vendors have a choice here. Myself, I have purchased blanks from the people who make the blanks and also purchased from the 'middleman' selling these blanks for that same person.  

What makes it nice having a middleman, is that I don't always know 'who' is making blanks, or the type of blanks available, or even all of the many different vendors, much less all the new blanks that the 'middleman' has supplied themselves.

But then again, I'm the kinda person who goes to a hardware store just to see what's there and maybe new 





maxwell_smart007 said:


> I would really like it if this thread did not become a flaming topic.
> 
> Al is stating that he prefers individuals to sell directly to him, for whatever reason.
> Others prefer one-stop-shops - that much is obvious.
> ...


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## Crickett (May 16, 2011)

In some cases the "middleman" are mom and pop businesses as well, I know the two I sell to are.


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## Texatdurango (May 16, 2011)

As a few already know, I'm not overly fond of having vendors ads in my face every time I log onto the forum to see what others are doing, to discuss some pen making issues or to see some of the nice pens being made by others.  And to be totally clear, I really have no problem with all the vendors selling on the forum....... as long as they follow the established rules.

I guess what bugs me is the way some vendors conduct their businesses here.  The way I read the forum rules there are clear guidelines on how and where vendors may conduct their businesses but some have been slowly bending or ever so cleverly side skirting those rules with the way they present their goods for sale.

Using the Soyp forum to launch new blanks is just business as usual these days when it was once forbidden and many threads in the "non-business" forums are started with very clear intent.

I've got an idea......... We already have the classifieds but they really are geared to just listing items for sale, I think if we broaden those forums or create a new forum JUST FOR VENDORS TO ADVERTISETHEIR GOODS, perhaps they can place their "polls" and other "product launchings" there.  THat way, they will be happy and can avoid those areas and we'll be happy!  I doubt it will happen but it's an idea.

Note to moderators, PLEASE don't ask me to provide PROOF of what I am saying, that would only cause names and instances to be mentioned then all hell would break loose...... just open your eyes and look around!

As stated above, we do have the right to voice our opinions so please keep that in mind before attacking my opinion!


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## Brooks803 (May 16, 2011)

Another way to look at it is this. I'll use myself as an example since I will be selling via Exotic blanks very soon. Many of the venders here also sell to a MUCH larger group of turners who may or may not be associated with IAP. This will get my product in the hands of more tuners than if I were to sell in one location only. Using a middle man does have it's advantages and disadvantages I'll agree to that. However, I don't have to create & manage a website, market that site, and handle everything from packaging to shipping for each buyer. That alone saves me $ and time that I can then put into my product.


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## ed4copies (May 16, 2011)

And, actually, it REDUCES the advertising on IAP.

We have about a dozen partners now---Each of them is "entitled" to individual ads at the rate of 2 a day, on IAP.  IF they did that, they would rival the current "individual" leader who has TWENTY open ads!!  So, twenty times 12 would result in 240 ads.

Exotics has ONE. Four tenths of one percent of the above number.  And our partners are happy with the volume of sales they get, because IAP is now only ONE part of our marketing emphasis.


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## Manny (May 16, 2011)

I respect Al's opinion. But I must disagree

I turn as a hobby. I find one on one interaction with individual vendors an invaluable asset available here at the IAP. 

BUT
I also enjoy being able to purchase a wide variety of my pen making needs from one vendor. I save a bunch on shipping that I can in turn either buy more cool stuff or be less in trouble by SHMBO. (usually I buy more cools stuff)

I would not normally buy just one Rhino blanks, or upgrade a nib, or buy a feather blank individually. But if I am buying a kit or some PR blanks I love that I have an opportunity to buy new things with no additional shipping costs. 

I think I have the best of both words simply because I still have access to the individuals who make these items because most if not all of them are members here at the IAP. 

One last comment
Most of the middle man vendors I deal with ship lightning fast and i love that too. 

Just my 2 cents

Manny


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## bradbn4 (May 16, 2011)

Why would I want to deal with the designer of the pen blank?

Just to toss more direct business their way...to let them know directly by money that I am happy with what they do.

Why would I want to deal with an reseller? 

Often I buy more than just few pen blanks and I would like to pay minimum on total shipping.  If the manufacture desires to go thru other channels to sell their goods, I can understand that too.


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## MesquiteMan (May 16, 2011)

I am the head moderator here and as such, take full responsibility for the moderation of this site through direct involvement and help from my assistant moderators, Dean and Andrew.  I vehemently disagree that the rules are not being enforced or that they are selectively enforced as suggested by some.  George, please see my notes below.  I would appreciate a PM with the specifics requested.  Thank you.



Texatdurango said:


> as long as they follow the established rules.
> 
> *Please PM me with specific instances where someone is not following the rules.  When you do so, please be sure to cite the rule you claim they are not following.*
> 
> ...


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## DurocShark (May 16, 2011)

This sounds eerily familiar...


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## Smitty37 (May 16, 2011)

*Hmmmm*



Texatdurango said:


> As a few already know, I'm not overly fond of having vendors ads in my face every time I log onto the forum to see what others are doing, to discuss some pen making issues or to see some of the nice pens being made by others. And to be totally clear, I really have no problem with all the vendors selling on the forum....... as long as they follow the established rules.
> 
> I guess what bugs me is the way some vendors conduct their businesses here. The way I read the forum rules there are clear guidelines on how and where vendors may conduct their businesses but some have been slowly bending or ever so cleverly side skirting those rules with the way they present their goods for sale.
> 
> ...


Well I had an ad deleted just last week in the business classifieds for a rule infraction. So I know for a fact the the mods are at least trying to enforce the rules as they apply to vendors.


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## bitshird (May 16, 2011)

I shouldnt but I will,, I sell my tool here on the IAP but I also have several vendors that I sell to, One reason is it saves on freight, Seriously, Secondly it's opened up a lot more work for my SIL and I, [size=-5]sometimes too much[/size] but it also helps some of the end users that are getting ready to buy  kits, blanks, and other stuff, and if one of the companies I sell to gets any special requests, I go out of my way, same as if the customer came to me directly. 
To me I don't see much of a problem with some of the talented blank makers of tool sellers having a few select resale outlets, bottom line is the people are still dealing with me. if there's a problem I fix it.
I like seeing some of the new blanks for sale show up in SOYP, that way you can see what the blank looks like on a pen. 
Just my less than humble opinion!!


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## GregHight (May 20, 2011)

As a licensed and insured manufacturing business, we would need to get a retail license to sell to individuals which also means paperwork from the state and filing returns, etc.  

Since selling off all the retail assets of WoodZone, RhinoPlastics will now be able to focus strictly on manufacturing, and R&D whick will allow us to expand our product lines with some new and exciting products.

With everything else going on, it is much easier on us to have to deal with shipping to 10 or 20 customers than hundreds or thousands. We are still here and you can contact us directly with questions but we are not interested in retail.

RhinoPlastics is a very small business at this point and most of it is run by Karl and his wife while I help with other parts of the business including R&D, sales and public relations.

Thanks to all of you that have helped make RhinoPlastic a success!


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## sbell111 (May 20, 2011)

I generally like to buy from individuals, but I'm not fanatical about it.  

Of course, resellers make selling a bunch easier for individual suppliers, but they also know to avoid pitfalls that the individual might unknowingly make.

For instance, Ed sells stuff that many people make.  One of these products was mentioned in passing recently.  I wasn't familiar with the product, so I googled them up.  Landing on that individual supplier's website, I now knew what the product was, but not 'who' it was; so I clicked on their 'about us' page.  After reading it, I still didn't know who they were, but I was subjected to their political philosophy.  I'll not be buying theor product from Ed or anyone else.

Had they simply kept their politics to themselves and not married it to their products, they'd perhaps had more customers.  This is a dumb mistake that someone like Ed knows to avoid.


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## Padre (May 20, 2011)

I agree with Duroc.......this sounds eerily familiar.

I buy most of my stuff through the "middle men and women" here on IAP.  I peruse the classifieds from time to time, but most of the time I just go to the 'larger' sites that I know will have what I want.

Why?  Because by the time I get to the individual classifieds most of it is sold out. Other times, I know what I want from an individual (aka: Monty, Wolftat.)

I also appreciate the hard work that the "middle men/women" put in to their businesses, and it benefits US.  Yes, they make a few bucks, but not a lot.  You don't see them quitting their day jobs.:tongue:

PS: And to also comment on the moderators:  I think they do a great job, and this is a very 'clean' site.  By that I mean not a lot of advertising, not a lot of 'rules breaking.' 

PSS: I miss the MVV sub-directory.:frown:


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