# Need help from a machinist!



## PenMan1 (Oct 15, 2013)

I need someone with thread gauges and calipers to verify the thread diameter and pitch of the front section threads of the NEW Dayacom Jr Gent / Jr Statesman series.

With Dayacom's new modifications, they have RUINED my business. I can no longer change fountains to rollers, or vise versa.

Dayacom is no longer an option for my business model, but I WOULD like to try to salvage some of the THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS this change has cost me before I dump all Dayacom products.

Thanks!


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## PenMan1 (Oct 15, 2013)

To clarify:
I need the front section thread diameter and pitch of the roller ball sets.

WITH ANY LUCK, I can re-thread the fountain sections I have in stock to make them fit the roller ball sets.

Dayacom has changed the threads of the front section, AS WELL AS the cap threads and trim rings.

What a RIDICULOUS move.


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## OKLAHOMAN (Oct 15, 2013)

Wow!!!! I received a few hundred about a month ago and have about 50 left and so far all roller ball sections do exchange for fountain pen sections, between the Jr. Gent,Jr. Statesman and the Retro.


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## Dan Masshardt (Oct 15, 2013)

OKLAHOMAN said:


> Wow!!!! I received a few hundred about a month ago and have about 50 left and so far all roller ball sections do exchange for fountain pen sections, between the Jr. Gent,Jr. Statesman and the Retro.



I think he's saying that they changed all of them from what they used to be. 

Do you have an older jr to test your new ones with?


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## OKLAHOMAN (Oct 15, 2013)

Dan a couple of years ago they changed all threading to flat top threading to eliminate  the top from unscrewing so I'm guessing they've done it again as it has helped but still would unscrew at times, but I still can exchange the sections. I see where this could pose problems for Andy as he keeps a large inventory and his old inventory will not mate with the new inventory. And I just tried to post a cap on a new final from my older stock and it would not post.


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## PenMan1 (Oct 15, 2013)

Roy
PM sent


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## PenMan1 (Oct 15, 2013)

Roy:
I'm saying that even the NEW Dayacom Jr Statesman (any plating). Jr Gent (except TN gold) NO LONGER INTERCHANGE. The front section threads, cap threads and "thread rings" on the new Jr roller balls are TOTALLY different diameter and pitch to the NEW fountain sets. Because of the change, the plastic thread adapter in the centerband is different threads..... It even has a new marking (Dayacom 6, I think).

This happened about one time in ten, until the new orders arrived. Now, rollers and FPs are different EVERY time.


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## PenMan1 (Oct 15, 2013)

This is NOT a huge deal, as long as I can get an accurate diameter and thread pitch for the roller sets. The FP diameter is just slightly larger and course instead of fine.

With an accurate diameter and pitch, I should be able to order a custom die and just re-cut all of the FP sections.


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## carlmorrell (Oct 16, 2013)

I am no machinist, but I do have calipers, and thread gauges..

It's pretty hard to get a good read since the number of threads on the part. I think they are metric.

I measured two tips on the end has an o.d. of 6.74 and 6.8 mm.  So I would guess 7mm?  The thread pitch I came closest to was .75

The mate for the front end to the tube couplers is 8.2mm x 1.

Don't take my word for it!  Just wanted to add some confusion to the mix.


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## OKLAHOMAN (Oct 23, 2013)

Here is an update on the problem that CSUSA had with the threading. I talked to Josh about this problem and he said that the manufacturer (Dayacom) unknown to CSUSA did change the threading on the sections on one run of components,  CSUSA has as of now fixed this problem and no more of this run of components are being shipped from Dayacom and CSUSA now is only shipping all fountain and roller ball components with the same threading that they have had for the last few years.  
CSUSA admonished the manufacturer to never do this again for the reasons that Penman1 stated, (the need to exchange sections on the fly). So lets put the notion that the Jr. series of components are now not interchangeable between rollerball and fountain pen to sleep as this is not the case. CSUSA was aware of the problem when it was brought to their attention and quickly resolved it. They know what we pen turners want and are always going to do as we need.


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## ed4copies (Oct 23, 2013)

The threading issues have been noted on IAP in several threads, for several months.

I agree CSUSA has always had GREAT customer service---we will see how much control they have over Dayacom.

Saying the problem is resolved does NOT resolve it.  Time will tell.


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## OKLAHOMAN (Oct 23, 2013)

Ed, your right saying it's resolved does not resolve it but when I'm told by a supplier that they were told they had a problem and have resolved it  I tend to think they are truthful. As to control over Dayacom by CSUSA I would think the millions yes millions that they spend with them gives them a good deal of control over the products that Dayacom mamufactures for them and them alone.
Over the last three years I have bought thousands of component sets from them and yes I did have one problem with some Retros 2 years ago that the threads were the old rounded threads that three years ago were done away with because we asked them to see if a fix could be done on the caps unscrewing so they had Dayacom flatten the threads to help making the caps more secure. I called and told them and they replaced 100 Retros that week. 
Once again thank you for your feedback.


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## PenMan1 (Oct 23, 2013)

I'm still in a mess as I've got +/- 50 rollerball pens that don't interchange. I'm sure I can get replacements, but I still have to sort out the pens, then try to rebuild 50 pens without screwing them up.

Additionally, I still have my 3 biggest shows of the year to do, and I'm afraid to order Jrs.

Not whining.... I just really don't know which path to take.


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## OKLAHOMAN (Oct 23, 2013)

Andy, call me tomorrow, anytime.


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## PenMan1 (Oct 23, 2013)

Thanks Roy. I'm glad to hear this is fixed!!!! I couldn't believe it.


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## farmer (Oct 24, 2013)

*penmakers*



PenMan1 said:


> I need someone with thread gauges and calipers to verify the thread diameter and pitch of the front section threads of the NEW Dayacom Jr Gent / Jr Statesman series.
> 
> With Dayacom's new modifications, they have RUINED my business. I can no longer change fountains to rollers, or vise versa.
> 
> ...


 
The fastest and simplest way is to take it to your local machine shop...... 

And all that could be 100% worthless because allot of companies make there own bastard size threads that only fit there stuff.  

farmer


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## brownsfn2 (Oct 24, 2013)

Is it easy to identify the difference before assembly?

I did notice one Jr Gent I had did have different threads but even though I offer conversions no one takes me up on it.


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## ed4copies (Jan 23, 2014)

PenMan1 said:


> Roy:
> I'm saying that even the NEW Dayacom Jr Statesman (any plating). Jr Gent (except TN gold) NO LONGER INTERCHANGE. The front section threads, cap threads and "thread rings" on the new Jr roller balls are TOTALLY different diameter and pitch to the NEW fountain sets. Because of the change, the plastic thread adapter in the centerband is different threads..... It even has a new marking (Dayacom 6, I think).
> 
> This happened about one time in ten, until the new orders arrived. Now, rollers and FPs are different EVERY time.



January 2014 update:  In light of the fact that we now know CSUSA was in the process of changing vendors, this Dayacom problem becomes more interesting.

It has long been speculated that Dayacom is an assembler, getting parts from small manufacturers and bagging them.  IF Dayacom threads also changed, at the same time CSUSA did---are they both using the same, NEW manufacturer???


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## edstreet (Jan 23, 2014)

I would LOVE if someone could sell me or send to me one kit of EACH


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## 08K.80 (Jan 23, 2014)

I have ten kits I bought from CSUSA a while back and the cap threads neither thread onto the nib or the finial.
I never heard back from them and I have never purchased from them since.


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## PenMan1 (Jan 23, 2014)

08K.80 said:


> I have ten kits I bought from CSUSA a while back and the cap threads neither thread onto the nib or the finial.
> I never heard back from them and I have never purchased from them since.



I went through this, too. The problem was the WRONG centerband adapter. CSUSA did correct the problem immediately.

That's my dilemma. CSUSA has always provided EXCEPTIONAL customer service, it's too bad they let their manufacturer ruin a perfectly good product.

No matter how good the service may be, I can't buy a product that doesn't work for me.


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## 08K.80 (Jan 23, 2014)

PenMan1 said:


> I went through this, too. The problem was the WRONG centerband adapter. CSUSA did correct the problem immediately.
> 
> That's my dilemma. CSUSA has always provided EXCEPTIONAL customer service, it's too bad they let their manufacturer ruin a perfectly good product.
> 
> No matter how good the service may be, I can't buy a product that doesn't work for me.


 

I certainly _didn't_ receive EXCEPTIONAL customer service. I _didn't_ even receive _any_ customer service. I emailed a couple of times, but never heard anything. So I have a pile of useless parts in a bag that I could have spent the money from that purchase to order from another source.
I won't EVER order from them again. This craft is costly enough, without getting bad materials.

I hope the best for you...


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## ed4copies (Jan 23, 2014)

PenMan1 said:


> I need someone with thread gauges and calipers to verify the thread diameter and pitch of the front section threads of the NEW Dayacom Jr Gent / Jr Statesman series.
> 
> With Dayacom's new modifications, they have RUINED my business. I can no longer change fountains to rollers, or vise versa.
> 
> ...



As I read this Andy, you certainly seem to say you bought these pens from Dayacom.  

Did they actually come from Dayacom or CSUSA??


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## The Penguin (Jan 23, 2014)

08K.80 said:


> PenMan1 said:
> 
> 
> > I went through this, too. The problem was the WRONG centerband adapter. CSUSA did correct the problem immediately.
> ...



1. check your spam folder
2. pick up the phone and CALL THEM.


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## Dan Masshardt (Jan 23, 2014)

They have an online chat thing too. Worked for me with a problem.


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## 08K.80 (Jan 23, 2014)

The Penguin said:


> 08K.80 said:
> 
> 
> > PenMan1 said:
> ...


 

I watched my spam folder. I probably could have called them, but I don't like the hassle it requires when calling customer service at most places. It has been too long by now, I'm sure. I shouldn't have to chase them down for a faulty product.
I figure they knew of the problem and didn't want to resolve it with the customers that don't purchase often. It was my first.... and last purchase. There are reputable vendors here and others I've used without any problems at all. I'm sure they don't miss me.:wink:


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## The Penguin (Jan 23, 2014)

I highly doubt they are out to screw you.

If there was a problem with some kits - how should they know exactly WHO got them if the customer doesn't contact them?

Even in our highly connected world, emails get lost. Phone calls work, and their customer service people are very easy to get on the phone.

I've run into a few issues with kits that I've bought from them many years ago (missing clip, centerband, once I even lost a part, etc) - if they have it, they send it out - no questions asked. 

if anything, I would hold up CSUSA as a model for great customer service. 

If you want to have a defeatist attitude, by all means go ahead - but don't blame them for not following up when you didn't bother to really give them a chance to.


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## 08K.80 (Jan 23, 2014)

The Penguin said:


> I highly doubt they are out to screw you.
> 
> If there was a problem with some kits - how should they know exactly WHO got them if the customer doesn't contact them?
> 
> ...


 
One email getting lost... ok. But two maybe three, unlikely. That is more than enough of a chance to me. Don't blame me for a crappy product.

If you choose to continue supporting them, by all means go ahead, but I have made my choice not to support them. I have found the same kit, at a better price, and they actually thread together.:wink:


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## edstreet (Jan 23, 2014)

08K.80 said:


> The Penguin said:
> 
> 
> > I highly doubt they are out to screw you.
> ...




Think you have said this same thing multiple times in this thread already.   If you are unwilling to pick up the phone and call them with your problem then quite likely you are also to good to look at the paperwork that ships with the orders.


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## 08K.80 (Jan 23, 2014)

edstreet said:


> 08K.80 said:
> 
> 
> > The Penguin said:
> ...


 
I'm not sure what you mean that I've said this same thing multiple times in this thread. My first post is #20 at 8:43pm today. And exactly what is I've said so many times.

What does looking at an invoice have to do with anything? Yes, I verify all of the information on EVERY invoice. THANK YOU! Don't judge me and say I'm too good for anything! You don't know me.

Sorry, but I don't have to put up with crap like this. I stated my experience and get treated like this? 

I thought this was a good place and then people like you come out and ruin it with your rude comments. I think I will take a leave of absence.
The floor is yours.......Bye- Bye.


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## edstreet (Jan 23, 2014)

08K.80 said:


> edstreet said:
> 
> 
> > 08K.80 said:
> ...



Sorry, was not being rude but being realistic on the situation.  Look beyond the invoice and notice the part where it talks about returns.  If you were that unhappy with things then just return it and order elsewhere, just like everyone else.


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## designer (Mar 10, 2014)

A crash course on threads:

There are standards for threads and no need to guess what they are.  Yes you need thread pitch mics and or thread gages.  Thread mics to be thurough.

Many companies that make their own gages make them to a specific standard.   That might be DIN, ASME, JIS, MJ, ANSI or other standards.  But there have been changes.

For example, DIN has been replaced by ISO as has the ASME metric threads.  JIS is still a standalone standard but basically compatible with ISO metric.....unless you are making threads for Japan.

When you get into the BSW or ACME threads it is a whole Old ball game that is not compatible with the above mentioned standards.  They have their own place though yet.

How to tell:
You can get a cheap set of thread pitch gages at your local tool supply house.  Metric and imperial 60 degree and others as well.  There are also ACME and BSW and Pipe thread gages.  This will tell you the pitch of the threads and what style.  Be careful and look closely for light between the gage an the threads as some are close with these gages.  A set of mics comes in useful if you are not used to looking at threads.

To determine if you can return or retap threads, look for either pitch mics and point mics designed to check the minor diameter of the threads (major Dia of female threads) as well as the pitch diameter.  Tri roll gages are just too expensive unless you know someone that has access to them at work.  Hopefully that person can put the male thread on a comparator and check thread depth and all radii as well as pitch, minor and major diameters.

A standard Imperial or metric 60 degree thread is actually a triple helix for each lead.  Mulitply this times a 3 lead pitch and........

Yes, I deal with threads and the specs daily.  There is more to it than just what size and how many leads.

Is the tap a GH5 or a GH9?

Are the threads a loose, standard, close fit or interference fit?  Class 5 interference fit is based on the material it is going into.

Perhaps what we need is to develop a standard that works for fast 1/4 turn closure caps and yet is consistent with different material as well as holding without coming loose in a pocket.

All threads have been developed for either general or specific uses.  No standards have been developed for pen turning to date.  We have been relegated to what ever standards have previously developed for most other purposes.  Miniature threads come to mind.

Any takers?

I am willing to take the results to IFI Standards and to the people I know to get a new standard written if we can come to an agreement.  

Again, any takers?


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## The Penguin (Mar 10, 2014)

you can write all the standards you want - that does not mean that China will follow them.

:biggrin:


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## designer (Mar 11, 2014)

You are right.  That is where, hopefully, the vendors can help get them put in place.  If it is just a variant of a metric thread it will be easier though than an imperial thread.


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