# Jet haters



## Rifleman1776 (May 7, 2008)

Interesting how different folks look at the same thing and come up with different twists. I belong to a gunsmithing forum and recently there was talk about a Jet machinistâ€™s lathe.
	The guys on the forum spoke of Jet with nothing less than pure hate and venom. Most called Jet equipment â€˜cheap Chinese knock-offsâ€™.
	On some forums, especially the ones for penturners, the forums are practically houses of worship for things Jet.  Curiously, those same forums, and people, often hate Grizzly equipment, even though both brands usually come off the same assembly lines. Oh, well.
	Folks is funny critters.


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## 1JaredSchmidt (May 7, 2008)

I likes em.


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## Texasbeachbum (May 7, 2008)

I better like Jets my shop is full of them


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## Russianwolf (May 7, 2008)

I don't hate jet. I just don't think they are the end all be all that some seem to think.

I had someone tell me that you "simply can't compare the jet mini to a PSI turncrafter pro, as they are in totally different leagues". Looks like the same castings to me. All the specs are nearly identical, just a little fit and finsh is the only difference I can find.

but hey, what do I know, I bought a Grizzly lathe.


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## Ligget (May 7, 2008)

I like my little Jet lathe, never let me down yet!


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## Hayseedboy (May 7, 2008)

Came off the same assembly line?  That implies that they are the same machine as the Grizzly.  Are they?  Wouldn't that make them marvey?

Almost everything we buy comes from China these days. Especially the lead paints 

Myself, I guess I couldn't put a lot of stock in any one company having all of the best tools for every application.  Yamaha makes everything from motorcycles to pianos, DVD drives to chop sticks.  Do I expect all of their products to be top of the line?  No.  Neither do I believe that any one equipment manufacture sells the best equipment.

Whoever the marketing person was that came up with "branding" (aka brainwashing) was a very smart individual.  It builds a very stubborn loyalty very quickly because we as humans find the urge to always be "right."  I gave up on that years ago...

For me, I'll do my research on each product not the manufacture.  I own the Jet mini and find both pros and cons with it.  If I had my way I would have bought the highend Oneway but I wanted to keep the wife.  She only has Pros and constantly reminds me that she is NOT my property (her only downside).  

lr

p.s.  boy is my spelling off this morning...


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## SuperDave (May 7, 2008)

... I like Jets, especially the Blue Angels They are so COOOOL!


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## Rifleman1776 (May 7, 2008)

Hayseedboy asked, "Came off the same assembly line? That implies that they are the same machine as the Grizzly. Are they? Wouldn't that make them marvey?"
  Well....yes and no. Before buying my Grizzly G0632 lathe I spent quite a bit of time and effort checking out both the Griz and Jet 1642. They do come off the same line. But, there are differences as related to me by tech support of both Grizzly and Jet. The bed of the Grizzly is cast, milled steel. The Jet is milled cast iron. Neither company had an opinion on which was better/worse. Legs of both are cast iron and, near as can be told, identical. Motors come from different Chinese factories. The factory that makes the lathe buys the motors from outsources. Neither company could say which was better/worse. They are different colors. Other than that, I believe, they are near clones.


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## Russianwolf (May 7, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Hayseedboy_
> 
> Came off the same assembly line?  That implies that they are the same machine as the Grizzly.  Are they?  Wouldn't that make them marvey?


Well, there is a lot of cross manufacturing of tools today. Many of the Ryobi brand tools are clones of Craftsman tools or vise versa. They are made in the same factory with the same parts and only the shell is different in many cases. 

While I'm not sure that the Jet and Grizzly are off the same line, I wouldn't be at all surprised if they were.


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## maxwell_smart007 (May 7, 2008)

Same factory, same plans, but different specs perhaps...

Andrew


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## Chuck Key (May 7, 2008)

Maybe all this explains the Jet 3520B.


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## 1JaredSchmidt (May 7, 2008)

My favorite jets are the F-15 Eagle and the F-14 Tomcat. Seriously though,my Turncrafter Pro is not near as nice as the Jet mini lathe.


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## Ron in Drums PA (May 7, 2008)

I like the NY Jets


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## LEAP (May 7, 2008)

I always find the tools wars amusing. The variety of manufactures represented in my shop is only bested by the types of wood in my blank bins. There are power tools from Bosch, Rigid, Ported Cable, Milwaukee, Craftsman (a moment of weakness), Oneway, Rikon, Reliant, Delta, Hitachi and a few others. I buy what best suits my needs and wallet at the time. Overall I'm happy with the performance of each and every one. The manufactures generally stand behind their products and any problems I've had over the years have been dealt with courteously and usually quickly. If the manufactures ever start giving discounts for brand loyalty then I might stick with one manufacturer, until then my shop will continue to be the united nations of workshops.


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## Hayseedboy (May 7, 2008)

United Nations of Workshops.  I LOVE IT!  Is that trademarked?

lr


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## penhead (May 7, 2008)

Hey, I like Jet noise


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## rlharding (May 7, 2008)

I was out looking for a mini yesterday and at kmstools (.com) I looked at a general VS $550, a King $279, and a General $329.  The sales man told me that they will have a new mini Wilton (?) in September selling for around $160. He said it is bigger than the minis and smaller than the midis and made for pen turning. Between looking at catalogues and display lathes it seemed that they were all the same cast and very much the same specs.  He told me the King and General were the same cast and from the same factory. The difference with the king is that it has an extra 1/4hp. He told me that they were 'all' Grizzly.  I said I thought General was Canadian and he said they were ALL Grizzly. Since he can't get the new mini until sept I said that I would just go across the border to Bellingham and go to Grizzly for it.....and he said they won't have it in their catalogues yet and might not know what I was talking about.  So go figure.


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## holmqer (May 7, 2008)

General is made in Canada, General International is made in China


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## jking (May 7, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Rifleman1776_
> 
> Hayseedboy asked, "Came off the same assembly line? That implies that they are the same machine as the Grizzly. Are they? Wouldn't that make them marvey?"
> Well....yes and no. Before buying my Grizzly G0632 lathe I spent quite a bit of time and effort checking out both the Griz and Jet 1642. They do come off the same line. But, there are differences as related to me by tech support of both Grizzly and Jet. The bed of the Grizzly is cast, milled steel. The Jet is milled cast iron. Neither company had an opinion on which was better/worse. Legs of both are cast iron and, near as can be told, identical. Motors come from different Chinese factories. The factory that makes the lathe buys the motors from outsources. Neither company could say which was better/worse. They are different colors. Other than that, I believe, they are near clones.



If the Grizzly is cast steel, that would put it's castings in a different league than the Jet's cast iron.  Typically, cast steel is used when a higher level of strength, durability, & precision is needed.  It also generally costs more.


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## mrcook4570 (May 7, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Rifleman1776_
> 
> Interesting how different folks look at the same thing and come up with different twists. I belong to a gunsmithing forum and recently there was talk about a Jet machinistâ€™s lathe.
> The guys on the forum spoke of Jet with nothing less than pure hate and venom. Most called Jet equipment â€˜cheap Chinese knock-offsâ€™.



The Jet metal lathes are cheap Chinese knock offs.  The 9x20 Jet, Grizzly, Harbor Freight, and others are the same machine with a different coat of paint.  They require several modifications to attain a high level of accuracy.


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## Dario (May 7, 2008)

While a lot of machines may look the same with just a different color...I really don't believe they all come from the same plant (yes some do but not most).

If they are, why are there more dis-satisfied owners on some brands?  I think brand loyalty has more to do with quality than name (at least for me).  Some brands/makers also specialize on specific tools and try to spread on other tools they don't have any expertise on.

Cloning, industrial espionage, and patent infringement is a reality.  Quality control does vary and affect the final product.

In short, not everyone who looks like human (but different color) has the same parents. 

JMHO


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## wdcav1952 (May 7, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Chuck Key_
> 
> Maybe all this explains the Jet 3520B.



Hmmmm, I think that lathe would look better painted a nice mustard color!


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## MarkHix (May 7, 2008)

I like my 2 Jets.  I have never tried another brand so I don't have anything to compare it to.

Of course if you have Oneway you want to swap...


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## dalemcginnis (May 7, 2008)

Much of it comes from our first impressions of a product.  I used to work QC at a company that made burritos.  They would put many different brand names on the same burrito recipe.  Being in QC I always had lots of freebies.  On time I gave my mom a bunch of the same burritos with different wrappers on them.  Later she said she liked brand "A" but not brand "B".  I tried to explain that the only difference is in the middle of the run they stopped the line and switch label rolls on the packaging machine. She didn't care, she still liked brand "A" better


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## leehljp (May 7, 2008)

My pet peeve in products concerns if it is "good enough" versus "does it do the job well"? If Jet machinist lathes are cheap knock offs then I can understand. "Good enough" in machining can be considered a misnomer for someone who accepts tolerances on the low side, someone who values the buck over the quality of output.

Whether it be lathes, saws, screw drivers or computers, when I see "good enough" as part of the recommendation, I run from it. Do I buy a more expensive product? . . If I can afford it, I will; if not, I will do without until I can afford something that will do the job well. "Good enough" implies to me the idea that it is made just well enough to get the job done in an OK fashion but still satisfy enough people to part with their bucks. The focus being on parting people from a few bucks than delivering a machine that can deliver a great product.

Having said that, I do buy some HF tools, but these are for tools in which precision is not the point.


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## ScribbleSticks (May 7, 2008)

Well, Hank, your comments sound 'good enough' to me!  BTW I like Benny and the Jets!!!


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## csb333 (May 7, 2008)

Unless the lathe is a real skank, it usually boils down to the skill of the Indian, not the Arrow. - Chris


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## stevers (May 8, 2008)

Have had two, likes em both.


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## Rifleman1776 (May 8, 2008)

> _Originally posted by jking_
> 
> 
> 
> ...



  Interestingly, most people working for Grizzly did not know what material the bed was made from. When I e-mailed Griz tech support with that question they had to research the answer. Later, I got a $50.00 gift certificate and letter thanking me for bringing this matter to their attention. That was followed up with a phone call from a high level executive with the company. We had a nice, very long, conversation about tools and customer attitudes. To shorten the story, he said their research was unable to detect any difference in performance between a cast iron and cast steel bed on this lathe. He added, if there is a difference in ability of one material over the other to absorb harmonic vibrations, the cast iron legs would absorb any vibrations and nullify any differences. As to one being a better "quality" over the other, he couldn't say and I sure don't know. What works, works.


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## LEAP (May 8, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Rifleman1776_
> What works, works.



Frank, I think you sumed it up perfectly. If you are happy with your tool stick with it no matter who made it or what anyone else has to say about it.


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## Mudder (May 8, 2008)

Just because the castings "look the same" does not make the machines identical and I'll give you some reasons why. 

The bores for the bearings must be machined and they can be done several ways. You can bore one side and then turn the casting around and bore the other side and most of the time that is good enough. The best way is is to line bore the part, thus insuring that both holes are on the exact plane. The bearing holes must also have a tolerance and that tolerance may differ from one company's specifications to the other. Then we must consider the spindle and the tolerances and materials associated with that. Higher tolerance means a sloppy fit and what may be considered acceptable for some manufacturers might not be acceptable to the other

Then we have the issue of the bearings. Precision bearings are rated on the ABEC standard, which stands for the Annular Bearing Engineering Committe. The Abec rating spells out, among other things,  how much annular and radial play a bearing can have to be able to qualify for that rating. Then we need to look at what is used to lubricate the bearing as there is a vast array of lubricant possibilities. Another thing to look at is the pre-load of the bearing although this is much less of a concern on a wood lathe than it would be on a metal lathe.

I know for a fact that the Jet Mini and the PSI lathes use a different ABEC quality of bearing. I also know that replacing the bearing with those of a higher ABEC quality will greatly improve both lathes. There is however a point of diminishing returns. You do not need an ABEC 9 bearing for a mini lathe because you will not see any advantage over an ABEC 7. And the ABEC 7 is just very slightly better than a properly installed and preloaded ABEC 5 bearing.


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## Ron in Drums PA (May 8, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Mudder_
> 
> Just because the castings "look the same" does not make the machines identical and I'll give you some reasons why.
> 
> ...



There you go again Scoot, muddying up our pre<s>mis</s>conceptions with facts.


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## Mudder (May 8, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Ron in Drums PA_
> 
> 
> 
> ...



[:0] Sowyee


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## richstick1 (May 10, 2008)

Guys - the Jet 3520B shown - you know that JET and Powermatic are both owned by WMH Toolgroup right?


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## gwilki (Jul 28, 2008)

I have a Jet Mini and if I could afford it, I would tie it to the end of a rope, use it for a boat anchor and buy something good.


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## bitshird (Jul 28, 2008)

Ive worked in machine shops that had quite a few pieces of Jet machinery, For the money, it's as good as most American made equipment, notice the caveat FOR THE MONEY, I like their milling machines, their lathes are decent, the larger ones, they are certainly better than the Brazilian made Bridgeport's, and I've done a lot of work on my Jet 920BN metal lathe.
 I don't know any thing about their wood working machinery, I just bought a Steel City, it looks exactly like a jet, but has a better warranty, much of the Jet equipment comes from Taiwan, and has a better quality of finish, at least that has been my experience.
tool life per dollar spent, it's getting hard to beat Jet,Birmingham,and Sharp machine tools same with the better line of machine tools from MSC.


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## OldWrangler (Jul 28, 2008)

"Spose these things can inter-breed?


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## 1JaredSchmidt (Jul 28, 2008)

I could never do without my Jet 1014VS. I hates it when people put Jet,Grizzly,and Delta's down.:frown:

Jet's in my opinion and in many others,are one of the best brands around. We have lots of Jet machinery and so does lots of other cabinet shops,woodworking,and metalworking shops around here have them and all they can say is that their very good. They've never had a problem with them. If you don't want your Jet gwilki,then I'll buy it. Depends on what it is though.


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## sparhawk (Jul 29, 2008)

*jet mini*

I have a Jet mini and so far it works for me. When it becomes a problem i will be sure to come to this post and tell everyone what a piece of crap it was. Until then im just enjoying it.Of course my band saw isn't a grizzly(it's a Ridgid) my table saw and drill press isnt a Grizzly(Craftsman, can i hear the shudders! ) and my dust collector(Workshop) still pulls the dust away from my work. I think we put to much faith on any one brand just because that is all we know from experience.(yes i know some of you have actually talked to people at the company for which your tool came from ; but what do you expect them to say? Yeh that Jet is a whole lot better than our Grizzly!Let's be real people, do your own research, check out the equipment,(oh! thats right ,Icant check out the Grizzly because they dont have but like 2 stores , and none are near me!)  4 of my 5 or 6 major tools were bought because i could look, touch, and run them to see how they operated and if in the long run they didnt hold up i didnt have to pack them in a box and send off to wait for repair!Just my opinion and remember.......I still love you guys!:tongue:  Just remember difference of opinion is what made our country what it is. Oh and especially the right to express it.:cowboy:


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## Celt40 (Jul 29, 2008)

I can't say anything bad about Jet. 
I have the Jet JWL 1442 lathe and it has been great. Course it's sod's law now that i have said good things about it, it will start to play up.


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## Hosspen (Jul 29, 2008)

*Oneway preference*

For me, I'll do my research on each product not the manufacture.  I own the Jet mini and find both pros and cons with it.  If I had my way I would have bought the highend Oneway but I wanted to keep the wife.  She only has Pros and constantly reminds me that she is NOT my property (her only downside).  

lr


You are cracking me up Hayseedboy! Sounds like you made good choices in life and lathes.
I got the lil Rikon lathe (made in China too, maybe with lead paint?) and I also am happy with my wife.  She is very dependable, variable speed and a "Oneway" lady.  I figure since woodturning is a hobby it wouldn't be wise to strain the family over a $5000 lathe.  It's good to see others out there with the same ideas.


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## gwilki (Jul 29, 2008)

Jared: I know that Jet minis seem to be the standard to many people. On my VS, the controller packed up within a couple of months. Since then, the headstock bearings have gone. My main bitch with WMH is that they allow their tools to be sold by US retailers to Canadians, but as soon as the machine crosses the border, WMH will not honour the warranty. Worse still, they will not even sell me parts if I'm willing to pay for them. It seems to me that if WMH doesn't want their equipment in Canada, they should damn well make sure that their retailers in the US know that they are not to sell them to Canadians. Or, at the very least, their retailers should be to told to warn Canadians that they are buying a machine with no warranty and no parts available.


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## Rifleman1776 (Jul 29, 2008)

sparhawk said:


> I have a Jet mini and so far it works for me. When it becomes a problem i will be sure to come to this post and tell everyone what a piece of crap it was. Until then im just enjoying it.Of course my band saw isn't a grizzly(it's a Ridgid) my table saw and drill press isnt a Grizzly(Craftsman, can i hear the shudders! ) and my dust collector(Workshop) still pulls the dust away from my work. I think we put to much faith on any one brand just because that is all we know from experience.(yes i know some of you have actually talked to people at the company for which your tool came from ; but what do you expect them to say? Yeh that Jet is a whole lot better than our Grizzly!Let's be real people, do your own research, check out the equipment,(oh! thats right ,Icant check out the Grizzly because they dont have but like 2 stores , and none are near me!)  4 of my 5 or 6 major tools were bought because i could look, touch, and run them to see how they operated and if in the long run they didnt hold up i didnt have to pack them in a box and send off to wait for repair!Just my opinion and remember.......I still love you guys!:tongue:  Just remember difference of opinion is what made our country what it is. Oh and especially the right to express it.:cowboy:





Grizzly has three stores. And one is near me.    Joking aside, that is a big factor in my decision making process.


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## philthephlier (Jul 30, 2008)

*Happy with the Jet*

I am a fairly new turner (5 months) and I bought my Jet at the local Rockler store for $225 after $25 rebate.  It turns very true to the tailstock.  I thought it would be nice to have the VS but I turn everything at the lowest and second to highest speed which would still require a belt change with the VS.  The learning curve I rode to precision turning involved proper use of mandrels.  The lathe would do it's job beautifully but 7 & 8 MM mandrels with two barrels being turned at a time left me unhappy with the inconsistent results.  I now turn with one of the adjustable collet style mandrels and turn only one barrel at a time.  The results are always predictabe, round, and true.  I also have switched to using calipers for precise diameters, no more bushings that keep getting sanded smaller & smaller.


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## Fred (Jul 30, 2008)

I really like my JET equipment and have a shop full to prove it. I don't think anyone turning wood is going to need the high end performance of some metal turning lathe. For goodness sake don't we all use a little sandpaper to make a minor fit adjustment. That would not really be the proper way to do it if we were turning parts for the space industry or any other industry that requires 1/10,000" tolerances for instance.

I would recommend to anyone buying a lather to visit several dealers and examining first hand the many different brands offered. I certainly would not tell some newcomer to buy anything based on some catalog picture.

Gather opinions and see whats what from those of us that use such equipment. Is that not what this Forum is for? I certainly come to to read what others have to state and offer my opinion and I still want anyone doing the same to go and see for themselves what is what.

I bought my JET 1642 and it replaced my JET mini. I am still planning on getting me a VicMark or a OneWay in the very near future and either of them will be bigger than the 1642. I can still turn all the pens I ever want to turn on the 1642 and be happier with the extra working room over the somewhat smaller mini. Life for me is far easier using the 1642 vs the mini. I am very glad I made the up grade and would do so again.


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## workinforwood (Jul 31, 2008)

I know not what the best is, but when I had the PSI turncrafter pro, the spindle head holes became elongated when inserting the pry bar which came with the lathe.  That tells me the metal is too cheap and soft...I sent the lathe back and bought the jet which has not had that problem.


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