# Stock Images on Web Site



## Rangertrek (Oct 28, 2008)

I am still new to penturning and have viewed numerous web sites that sell pens.  I recently came across one in our forum that had a nice web site.  ALL the pen pictures were from PSI, CSUSA, or others.  

The site had NO pens actually made by the owner.  The first time I saw the site, the pictures were just listed.
Now I see the pen pictures have an added note like 'photo curtesy of PSI.'

Does PSI adn CSUSA allow their images to be used on private web sites?

Just wanted some thought on this issue.


----------



## LanceD (Oct 28, 2008)

Some companies will allow you to use their photos IF you follow the correct procedure of contacting them for permission to use the photos. Most would probably want a written agreement stating you would have permission to use them. I would then think under each photo they would have a caption stating something like "photo courtesy of CCUSA".

That being said I would be leery of purchasing a pen from someone using photos of pens done by someone else. If I couldn't see what the artist is capable of doing on his own I would keep shopping.


----------



## rjwolfe3 (Oct 28, 2008)

If you contact CSUSA and PSI, they will give you permission to use their images.  There are forms to fill out and conditions that have to be met.  They do not require you to put a caption under their photos but something on the site stating that you have permission to use their photos would be advisable to keep others from accusing you.  What I did was to use their photos to show people what pen types are available to custom order.  As I make each pen type I then replace their photo with my own.  I also have many photos of my own pens on my website.  Most manufacturers would be happy to allow you to use their photos with the understanding that you would then buy their kits.  With that in mind be careful and *get permission* because some suppliers will absolutely not allow any of their photos to be used.
Just my 2 cents.:biggrin:


----------



## marcruby (Oct 28, 2008)

I wonder how many times the photo on the vendors site is really the manufacturer's photo...


----------



## gerryr (Oct 28, 2008)

I frankly don't understand what kind of person would even want to use photos of someone else's pens on their website.  Sounds pretty parasitic to me.:bad:


----------



## Texatdurango (Oct 28, 2008)

Rangertrek said:


> I am still new to penturning and have viewed numerous web sites that sell pens. I recently came across one in our forum that had a nice web site. ALL the pen pictures were from PSI, CSUSA, or others.
> 
> The site had NO pens actually made by the owner. The first time I saw the site, the pictures were just listed.
> Now I see the pen pictures have an added note like 'photo curtesy of PSI.'
> ...


 Seems like this might be a good question to ask PSI and CSUSA.  Perhaps the webmaster already contacted the vendors and all they required was a note, but I think they would ask that _courtesy_ be spelled properly


----------



## Texatdurango (Oct 28, 2008)

gerryr said:


> I frankly don't understand what kind of person would even want to use photos of someone else's pens on their website. Sounds pretty parasitic to me.:bad:


It sounds like someone just starting out and hasn't had a chance to make all the different kits yet although they have the capability.

I really don't see anything wrong with posting photos of completed pens on your website to give a customer an idea of what is available.

I have a gallery of photos of pens I made that are sold BUT are still available if one is interested.  I don't see this as being much different.

Personally, if I were shopping for a pen I would rather visit a website and see nice photos of examples than some of the photos I have seen on some members web sites!


----------



## rjwolfe3 (Oct 28, 2008)

Gerry,
Not everyone has the money or opportunity to try to make every pen style that is available.  If I was retired and/or a millionaire then I could purchase all of the pen styles, make them and put them on my website.  At this time I have been only able to make maybe 10 different styles.  Should I then limit the types of pens I sell to just 10 styles or should I make all styles available to potential customers?  Only they know what kind of pens they want to own.  I would hope that one wouldn't call that parasitic.  Wow that attitude pisses me off.


----------



## Blind_Squirrel (Oct 28, 2008)

gerryr said:


> I frankly don't understand what kind of person would even want to use photos of someone else's pens on their website. Sounds pretty parasitic to me.:bad:


 
Someone may have mad pen turning skills but have poor photography skills, or not even own a digital camera.


----------



## LanceD (Oct 28, 2008)

The thing that would bother me as a potential customer is that I see a very nice CSUSA photo and place my order for that same style of pen and when it arrives there are overturned or underturned fittings, cloudy or rough finish or sanding swirls in the wood or acrylic or other problems we always talk about here. I would be pretty upset if I received a sub par pen when the photo on the website depicts a nice quality and flawless pen.

Just because you put up a website and have permission to use a company's photos doesn't mean that the quality of work being put out by that person is the same quality as that of the photo.


----------



## DocStram (Oct 28, 2008)

I sort of see both sides of this.  I can understand wanting people to see finished pens of various styles of kits   ......  but when I look at catalogs of finished pen kits the wood always seems to sway my opinion. 

Come to think of it, it's like looking at printed ads for women's clothes.  I know the dress is ugly but hot dang! I sure love that beautiful model wearing it ... errrrrr, I mean the dress.   gulp  :biggrin::biggrin:


----------



## flyingmelon (Oct 28, 2008)

rjwolfe3 said:


> .......  What I did was to use their photos to show people what pen types are available to custom order.  As I make each pen type I then replace their photo with my own...... :biggrin:



Very good point. I had been thinking that it was misrepresentation to do this then I read your post and thought hey that is a good idea that would save from possibly buying the kit and everything that goes with it only to never sell that style. I think that as long as you do not take credit for something that you did not make and have permission to use said image then there should not be any problem. I see on a lot of sites comments to the effect that not all pens look like the picture due to the variations of a natural material.
Just my opinion and like everyone else's it is  worth about as much.


----------



## TellicoTurning (Oct 28, 2008)

Like Al, I can see both sides of the picture if you are selling custom pens and showing what CAN be available.  

On my site, I emphasis that every pen shown is in stock and available now.  I do state that I can do custom work, but all of my pens are one of a kind and what they see is what they get.  

Just my way of running my site... no judgements on how anyone else does theirs.


----------



## beck3906 (Oct 28, 2008)

The site operator may want to contact PSI and CSUSA about the use of their images if they haven't already.  I contacted CSUSA several months ago and they were asking a fairly costly price per image.

Most of the name companies such as CSUSA, Berea, and PSI spend lots of money to get their images professionally done.  This means that the image is probably copyrighted accordingly.

This can also go for certain written material the site may publish.  You could be asking for problems if you used the general concept of another site as your own.

Bil Baumbeck has his site well documented as to the legal ownership of the images and site content.

I have also explored the possible use of image tracking software that will alert the copyright owner if an image is pulled from your site and published on another site.

I wouldn't want to have their images on my website without signed permission statements.


----------



## rjwolfe3 (Oct 28, 2008)

Rick,
With CSUSA you only have to pay for the images if you want high quality photos.  If you are downloading the images used on their website then all you need is a permission slip from them that they provide.  They are very friendly to work with.  I have heard the same from PSI but haven't tried to contact them.


----------



## beck3906 (Oct 28, 2008)

Like I said, it had been several months since I had contacted them.  I will try again and see what they say.


----------



## DCBluesman (Oct 28, 2008)

Using anyone else's images on your website, where you are advertising YOUR handmade pens for sale, is misleading and just wrong.  

No matter what disclosure you put regarding the pictures, many folks will look at these photos and believe they are representative of your work.  They are not.  They are someone else's work and they are someone else's photographs.   

While I appreciate the dilemma you face if you are not able to craft one of each pen you wish to sell and I appreciate that not everyone has strong photography skills, showing someone else's work to sell yours is not ethical.  

If you cannot afford to make samples of each pen style you wish to sell and, at a minimum, have someone photograph your pens for your site, perhaps you are premature in setting up a website.


----------



## toolcrazy (Oct 28, 2008)

Personally, I think it is wrong to use stock photos of handmade products. Gives the customer the wrong idea. If your not willing to invest the money into your web store. Then you shouldn't have one. JMHO


----------



## OKLAHOMAN (Oct 28, 2008)

In reading this thread I just shake my head. Why would anyone want photos of someone else's work on their site and have to say so? The first thing is why would you want to tell your potential customer" photo courtesy of CSUSA or PSI" and then have them goggle them, see what you pay for your kit,blank etc. its just not good business. I wont even put the IAP logo with a link on my site because of some of the threads giving prices so low its laughable . Thats my opinoun and I'm in agreement with Gerry. I'm certanly not a millionaire but if I can afford a site I should afford to buy the kits I'm going to sell or not have a site.


----------



## LanceD (Oct 28, 2008)

I don't see why anyone would want to offer every pen available to potential customers. I don't have a pen related website yet but I do have one for my rod business. Everything listed on my site is in stock and ready to ship once someone clicks on a button.

When I do get ready for a pen related site to go up I certainly don't want to offer every pen under the sun. As it is I have about 7 kits that I use and consistantly sell and when I do go the website route, what's listed and photographed, with my own photos of course even if I pay someone to do them professionally will be in stock and ready to ship.


----------



## altaciii (Oct 29, 2008)

Personally I looked through many pen sites before I jumped in with my own.  I saw some that showed one or two pens of a certain style and gave the customer a choice of woods or materials available to the artist.  Others chose to show pics of their own and still others showed pics from suppliers.  When I jumped in I decided to give the potential customer a choice of which pen he wanted.  The pics were of pens I had for sale, if thats the one they ordered thats the exact pen they get.  I feel the buyer has a right to see what he is purchasing and if he sees a style he likes and wants a different medium, I will turn the pen take a picture and email it for his approval.  I have yet to have a customer refuse a pen once it is turned.  There are many different sites on the web and a lot of competition for customers.  Situations are different for everyone so I feel the old addage "to each his own" applys here.


----------



## DSallee (Oct 29, 2008)

Rangertrek said:


> .... ALL the pen pictures were from PSI, CSUSA, or others. ...........The site had NO pens actually made by the owner.  The first time I saw the site, the pictures were just listed. Now I see the pen pictures have an added note like 'photo curtesy of PSI.'...........



Rangertrek, I'll answer your question first cause it seems to be my site you are referring to. Yes, I did have just the images there, then yesterday I add the courtesy of... to them because I was being accused of "stealing" the pics when I do have permission to use them.  And yes, I do have pic of MY OWN pens there, you just didn't look close enough. 

Seems I've struck a nerve of a few people... hmmm... but for all that wanna know, I do have permission to have their pics there. 

Now as far as some of you that think it's wrong to have "someone else's work there..." The way I was looking at it was somewhat like Rob was, If it's not listed, how the hell you gonna sell it? Yea, I know what your answer is.. make it then you can sell it... well what if I make it and what if a customer comes along that wants THAT type of pen but in Red Mallee and all you have is it in Cocobolo? Are you going to have EVERY pen made in EVERY finish? don't think so Tim... So the way I see it, ALL my pens are custom made to the customers specs... no inventory so it doesn't just set there and gather dust.... Once I get an order for a certain pen type I haven't got a pic of yet or turned, I'll order at least 5 kits, one each of the metal finishes and two of the one they ordered ... I'll make theirs and have "kit" inventory for the next or in case I do not get a good pic for my website (as what happened to the last one, had to deliver before I got a good pic) I'll make another one for the pic replacement... ...And no, I do not have boo-koos of dollars lying around to buy each and every kit available to have all pics be mine. That's gonna take time and yes dollars. As stated in another thread, I will be replacing them as I make them.

As far as deceiving the customer (pic shows well made pen and my pens are junk) Well... I am somewhat of a nitpic on what I WILL sell to the customer... If it isn't up to standards, overturned-underturned etc, then it's not being sold.. I have sold quite a few pens from my site already and all of the customers have commented that my pens are perfect! you know.... when they first see it in person they go.... WOW!!! They comment that it looks much better in person than it does on my site (meaning the pics on my site.) so that in itself tells me something about my work. 

Now I'm not saying all my pens are perfect... cause they aren't,  I have quite a few actually that are MY everyday users... These are my oops pens and will not be sold to anyone ...  

As most of you, All I will sell my customers is my BEST work. And also, most everyone of you had to start somewhere in selling your pens. This is how I did it, offering the customer everything I had to offer (or wanted to make and sell) so far, it's worked for me, no complaints yet (by customers anyway.. LOL)

AND the reason I put "image courtesy of ... " on the pics was because I was getting so much flack from IAP members saying I was "stealing" the images.....

...good grief... can't win for loosing...

OK, I'll step down now..... I'm out...


----------



## rjwolfe3 (Oct 29, 2008)

Wow, I am so glad I followed this post.  I need to take my website down.  While I'm at it, I should refund people their money for misleading them with "representative images".  I mean should I refuse to do the Emperor pen that a customer just ordered from me because she saw the image on my website.  Holy cow people I've seen some elitist attitudes around here before but to suggest to someone that they shouldn't have a website unless they only post their own images.  I mean come on people we all have to start somewhere.  I have one page with my completed pens for sale.  I have one page that is a gallery of pens I have completed and sold.  And I have a custom page that shows both materials and styles for my customers to choose from.  The custom page is the only page that has images from CSUSA (WHICH I HAVE PERMISSION TO HAVE).  If I have been making pens for as long as some of you elitist's have then I would only need to post my pictures.  To repeat my earlier post, I am not retired nor do I have a lot of money to make a bunch of kits to sit around gathering dust.  I do not keep a large inventory because I can't do shows since I am not off on weekends.  Word of mouth and my website are the only ways I can sell my products.  Most of my work is custom tailor made for each customer.  I'm sorry that some of you can't look past your own self righteous attitudes and see that.  I'm done with this discussion, I'm going to go make sawdust for awhile.  My blood pressure is way to high right now.


----------



## TellicoTurning (Oct 29, 2008)

As I said in earlier post, I can see both sides of the picture and I pass no judgement on how another craftsman sets up his site.  We each have our own business plans and if it works, then it works.  There are a number of great websites out there selling pens and other turnings, all are working as the owner intends.  All that great competition out there should make each of us better for that competition.


----------



## SuperDave (Oct 29, 2008)

How many people have bought something off EBay where the image was a "representation"? I have, and I think many others have as well.

A buyer has the responsibility to make their own decision about purchasing. If they are informed that the image is a "representation" and they decide to buy, so be it. They can always contact the seller for more information, pictures of their work, whatever it takes to make up their mind.

Ultimately, no one forces another to buy anything. If the web site informs the potential client of "stock images" and has some actual work from the artist as well, then there should be no issue.

Bottom line... buyer beware... even with "real" (photo enhanced) images...

D


----------



## gerryr (Oct 29, 2008)

SuperDave said:


> How many people have bought something off EBay where the image was a "representation"?



I just did, a Garmin Forerunner 301 heart rate monitor for cycling.  I also just ordered a new cycling helmet from Rudy Project.  I will not get the exact items shown in the adverts and that doesn't bother me.  The difference is that these are not handmade items, they are mass produced by the thousands.  There is a very large difference between a representative photo of a mass produced item and a representative photo of a handmade item.


----------



## SuperDave (Oct 29, 2008)

gerryr said:


> There is a very large difference between a representative photo of a mass produced item and a representative photo of a handmade item.



I agree totally. 

However, given that:

1. Actual handmade product were also displayed, 
2. As well as stock photographs of alternative styles, 
3. And that the stock photographs were identified as such, 
4. And that supplier permission was granted to use the stock photographs,

I believe that potential buyers can compare actual work done, as well as view other style options available to them without being misled.

If the only photographs on the site were "unauthorized" product photographs being used to directly or implicitly deceive the potential buyers into believing that they were the actual product(s) being sold, then absolutely, that is wrong in every conceivable way.

That is not the case here. I personally do not have any issues with the premise of offering alternative kit selection examples in conjunction with what is also being offered as handcrafted, so long as each item is clearly identified as such. It is an excellent, ethical and aboveboard method of meeting the demands of the consumers without having to invest in large amounts of inventory... in a sense, it's JIT (Just In Time) crafting and a very smart avenue to pursue.


D


----------



## gerryr (Oct 29, 2008)

Obviously we have a difference of opinion.


----------



## Skye (Oct 29, 2008)

Blind_Squirrel said:


> Someone may have mad pen turning skills but have poor photography skills, or not even own a digital camera.




.... but can build a website? Eh, although certainly possibly, I think it would be pretty unlikely.

One step beyond that is that I can't believe someone would buy from someone:  a.) knowing the pen in the pic isn't the actual pen   -or-  b.) Buy a pen, open the package, and not notice it's not the same one on the site.


----------



## DCBluesman (Oct 29, 2008)

rjwolfe3 said:


> ...Holy cow people I've seen some *elitist attitudes* around here before but to suggest to someone that they shouldn't have a website unless they only post their own images. ... If I have been making pens for as long as *some of you elitist's* have then I would only need to post my pictures. ...I'm sorry that some of you can't look past your own *self righteous attitudes* and see that. ...


 
I am quite surprised at the contempt you show for specific individuals in this post.  If I do not agree with you am I now elitist and self-righteous?  Is that right?  Or is that simply a means of deflecting the issue?  You have chosen a short cut which leads me to think that you believe the end justifies your means.  That is your privilege.  But resorting to name calling is a bit low on the evolutionary scale of communications.


_It's funny how this discussion changes depending on who's ox is being gored.  We all want to see pictures of the exact wood that Big Rob or Nolan is offering, but some feel it is perfectly permissible to offer "representative pictures" of pens to potential customers.  Sorry, but what's sauce for the goose is also sauce for the gander._


----------



## marcruby (Oct 29, 2008)

I don't know that anyone on this site is perfectly ethical.  So you pointing a finger and doing a bit of name calling is a vision of irony.  And then accusing the other guy of name calling is just icing on the cake.



DCBluesman said:


> But resorting to name calling is a bit low on the evolutionary scale of communications.


----------



## rjwolfe3 (Oct 29, 2008)

I was going to reply but what's the point.  I have no seniority on this forum and I would never be able to win an argument against those that have the seniority.  I am going to bow out of this discussion.  I wish you all the best of luck and I'm sorry that some of you feel the way you do.


----------



## MesquiteMan (Oct 30, 2008)

I think it is time EVERYONE bow out of this discussion, at least with the hostilities.  Ethics are a personal thing and everyone has different views.  Let's leave it at that and move on.

Curtis O. Seebeck
IAP Moderator


----------



## Skye (Oct 30, 2008)

_(Psssst, isnt this where you lock the post?)_

I doubt this thread will make a recovery, lol


----------

