# Penn State, Craft Supplies, Dayacom, Woodcraft? Which are the best?



## jhaworth (Aug 10, 2011)

I've only been turning pens for about two years and have used mostly Penn state products. Good quality kits, especially the high end products like the Majestics and Broadwell series. Just curious, are there better kits out there? I'm looking at Woodcraft and Craft supplies. Craft offers pretty good discounts when you order in bulk. Also, there are the Dayacom kits that are pretty expensive. Are they worth the price? Keeping my options open and looking for input.


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## hewunch (Aug 10, 2011)

jhaworth said:


> I've only been turning pens for about two years and have used mostly Penn state products. Good quality kits, especially the high end products like the Majestics and Broadwell series. Just curious, are there better kits out there? I'm looking at Woodcraft and Craft supplies. Craft offers pretty good discounts when you order in bulk. Also, *there are the Dayacom kits* that are pretty expensive. Are they worth the price? Keeping my options open and looking for input.



Pretty certain that the Majestics and Broadwells are Dayacom's too.


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## PenMan1 (Aug 10, 2011)

I don't know about the Broadwells, but the Majestics are listed on Dayacom's website.


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## SCR0LL3R (Aug 10, 2011)

I haven't been turning for very long but most of the kits I have used  are Berea brand. Many are sold by http://www.beartoothwoods.com or http://exoticblanks.com (and http://penblanks.ca here in Canada)  as well as a few other forum vendors.. I  think just about everybody will agree that Berea kits are good. Dayacom  kits seem to have a very good rep around here as well but I haven't  used any personally.

 The only Craft Supplies kits that I have used are Jr Gent II's which seem fine but I really haven't put them through much use yet

 The only kits I personally have had issue with so far are Penn State slimlines  which I have had a lot of trouble with fitment... I can't get the clips  onto the finial on a lot of them because the plating on the finial is thick and chunky.


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## PenMan1 (Aug 10, 2011)

Keith:
The Craft Supply kits (Jr. gents, et al) are Dayacom .


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## bnoles (Aug 10, 2011)

I have gotten away from the big supply houses and have been using many of the individuals from this forum as well as some of the smaller vendors out on the net.  High quality kits, friendlier and faster service and once in a while even a better price   These folks really appreciate your business more and show it in many ways that the supply houses do not.


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## SCR0LL3R (Aug 10, 2011)

PenMan1 said:


> Keith:
> The Craft Supply kits (Jr. gents, et al) are Dayacom .



I thought they might be so I looked on Dayacom's site before commenting so as to not look stupid :wink: but I didn't see them there. I did see Sedonas on Dayacom's site just now which I also make. I assume then that Barons are also Dayacom?

I also see that both Dayacom and Berea sell the Cigar and Churchill (using the same name), as well as others I'm sure.

SOOO... I guess I don't entirely know who makes the kits I am building. I bought most of them from penblanks.ca and when I asked them they said _almost_ every kit they sell is Berea.


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## RussFromNH (Aug 11, 2011)

bnoles said:


> I have gotten away from the big supply houses and have been using many of the individuals from this forum as well as some of the smaller vendors out on the net. High quality kits, friendlier and faster service and once in a while even a better price  These folks really appreciate your business more and show it in many ways that the supply houses do not.


 
Is there a single forum that would have a lof of these listed?


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## ed4copies (Aug 11, 2011)

The original sedona is a Berea product, as is the Baron, which is sold as the Navigator at Woodcraft.

There is MUCH confusion about names, since many manufacturers call their pens "sierras" (and other names).  But, if I tried to give you  specific information, some people complain I am advertising--so PM me if you want to know more--I can still answer questions!!

I have purchased pen kits for nearly 20 years now.

(This invitation is open to all)


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## sbell111 (Aug 11, 2011)

PenMan1 said:


> Keith:
> The Craft Supply kits (Jr. gents, et al) are Dayacom .



As I understand it, their 'standard' line of kits are (at least mostly) Dayacom kits.  I don't think that any of their Apprentice kits are made by Dayacom.  (Not that there's anything necessarily wrong with that.)


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## sbell111 (Aug 11, 2011)

ed4copies said:


> But, if I tried to give you  specific information, some people complain I am advertising--so PM me if you want to know more--I can still answer questions!!


It seems like this statement that you often drop into your posts is more of an advertisement than how you previously handled it, not that I care.


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## bnoles (Aug 11, 2011)

RussFromNH said:


> bnoles said:
> 
> 
> > I have gotten away from the big supply houses and have been using many of the individuals from this forum as well as some of the smaller vendors out on the net. High quality kits, friendlier and faster service and once in a while even a better price  These folks really appreciate your business more and show it in many ways that the supply houses do not.
> ...



Hi Russ,

Spend a little time in the classifieds of IAP for some great pickings of folks to do business and you can also Google "Pen Making Supplies" for a great many more.  I am not aware of a compiled list anywhere that I know of.


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## SCR0LL3R (Aug 11, 2011)

I wish they would give them different names so I know who I am buying from. I am sure there are minor differences both in quality and in the fine details.


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## ed4copies (Aug 11, 2011)

SOME of the differences are more than minor.

I could NOT agree with you MORE!!!!


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## sbell111 (Aug 11, 2011)

ed4copies said:


> SOME of the differences are more than minor.
> 
> I could NOT agree with you MORE!!!!



I believe that the quality gap between the big suppliers and the 'knock-offs' has greatly reduced over the last few years.  I do see occasional quality issues with these suppliers, but I've also gotten duds from CSUSA, et al.


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## dabeeler (Aug 11, 2011)

I buy different stuff from different folks, however I buy my kits from Arizona Sillhouette which are Berea kits.  I usually buy off of the weekly special to take advantage of the max quantity price for just a few kits.  Started with Berea and have continued because that is what I have accumlated bushings for.


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## beck3906 (Aug 11, 2011)

sbell111 said:


> ed4copies said:
> 
> 
> > But, if I tried to give you specific information, some people complain I am advertising--so PM me if you want to know more--I can still answer questions!!
> ...


 
If you don't care, then why post?


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## OKLAHOMAN (Aug 11, 2011)

beck3906 said:


> sbell111 said:
> 
> 
> > ed4copies said:
> ...


 
Play nice boys!!!!


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## crabcreekind (Aug 11, 2011)

Timberbits.com has really good quality stuff..


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## Woodlvr (Aug 11, 2011)

I would contact our vendors by pm or their website and they will tell you the truth about who makes their kits, and they support this wonderful free forum that we have to learn from some of the masters in pen turning and woodworking. JMHO.


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## sbell111 (Aug 12, 2011)

beck3906 said:


> sbell111 said:
> 
> 
> > ed4copies said:
> ...


I don't care if he adverts his business.  The way he is passively aggressively doing it is irritating, however.


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## PenMan1 (Aug 12, 2011)

SCR0LL3R said:


> PenMan1 said:
> 
> 
> > Keith:
> ...



We STILL DON'T REALLY KNOW! Berea used to swear that they make all of their components. I don't take this as "Gospel" as most Berea "moving parts" have the same tool and die marks as Dayacom components.

I could prove in a court of law that Dayacom makes nothing. All components for Dayacom are produced by other "subcontractors" and simply bagged and shipped by Dayacom.

EVER WONDER "Why so many damned small plastic bags?". That is because that is the way the subcontractors ship to the packaging company.

Do you STILL think that "Rhodium" finish plating has any metal in it?


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## SCR0LL3R (Aug 12, 2011)

I haven't used any rhodium/platinum yet... Initially because I was doing cheaper kits but now it's because I don't know what the hell the plating really is. I am sure we get ripped off with some of the supposed gold ti / black ti finishes as well. Why is it that typically we pay more for titanium finishes vs 24k gold but when you look at Dayacom's brand name kits, they charge much more for 22k gold than black titanium? 

How come I have two supposed 24k kits from different manufacturers that are miles apart in actual color?

At least with chrome, you know what you are getting. (Am I assuming too much here?)

I suppose as in the case of Dayacom, I wouldn't much care who they subcontract to, as long as they were to maintain consistent quality control and be honest about the metals being used. Given the country of origin though, the chances of that happening are quite slim I'm sure.


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## ed4copies (Aug 12, 2011)

sbell111 said:


> beck3906 said:
> 
> 
> > sbell111 said:
> ...



Therein lies the problem.  From March 2005 to December 2008 I could give my opinion and "share" my experience and never had a complaint.

When Exotics started, I never heard anyone complain as we assembled a group of IAP members' products and did what the forum had requested---sold them all in one place.

Then there developed a contingent who started complaining that I advertised too much (it WAS several times a month), so I went to no more than twice a month.  The complaining did not stop and new competition joined the forum, advertising extensively.

So, now we try to "live and let live".  No matter WHAT I say, someone objects.  So, the bottom line is--I will say what I feel is right---to those who are offended---don't read my posts.

There is an "ignore" feature that will make me invisible to you.  Try it--you will like it.

To those who continue to read what I write, you will learn about the best products I can find to assist you---the penmaker--in making and selling the best products available.  You will also gain knowledge about such things as nibs (I questioned IPG) and platings (I questioned Rhodium), who knows what else you might learn??

Thanks for letting me vent.  Back to my normal attempts at humor and education.

I apologize for taking this thread somewhat off course.  However to keep it from getting worse, this is the last post I will make in this thread.

Those who have requested further info in PM, I will be writing a fairly long article and send it to you.  So, please be somewhat patient.  I feel a detailed answer is the only way to be fully accurate.


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## jedgerton (Aug 12, 2011)

Ed, 

I know you have a business and I also know you have a wealth of experience. I appreciate your comments and think IAP is better for them.  I also feel this way about the other IAP vendors. In it's essence, this site's value comes from the exchange of ideas and information among those who are informed and those who desire to learn. Let's not put up barriers to that process. 

John


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## PenMan1 (Aug 12, 2011)

Being silent has never been my "long suit", so I am not going to change, now!

Ed, I find your comments very informative and valuable (in fact, one single conversation we once had helped me "move the bar" WAY UP in terms of marketing and even making pens that don't fail.

Smitty, I always find your comments informative as well, and never consider those "advertising" either. I fact, I had "dismissed" the LE Roi pen sometime ago, and feel that now I REALLY SHOULD GIVE IT SOME MORE ATTENTION.

Mike, your comments are always helpful too, and I never consider these "advertising" either.

IN FACT, I wish MORE VENDORS would take an active roll in posting here.

Now, if any of you every said "MY Jr. Gent (etc) is better than CUSAs (or XYZs)", I'd be the first to "call you" on it. But I have never seen that occur here!

Respectfully submitted!


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## Woodlvr (Aug 12, 2011)

Thanks Andy, I wanted to say something to that effect. In the 6 short years that I have been a member product knowledge and product have improved 10,000 %. If I need help any vendor I talk to always tried to help with my problem, "no matter how blonde of a moment that I am having".


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## sbell111 (Aug 12, 2011)

jedgerton said:


> Ed,
> 
> I know you have a business and I also know you have a wealth of experience. I appreciate your comments and think IAP is better for them.  I also feel this way about the other IAP vendors. In it's essence, this site's value comes from the exchange of ideas and information among those who are informed and those who desire to learn. Let's not put up barriers to that process.
> 
> John


I completely agree with this post.  I actually miss Ed's discussion of actual topics.  Lately, it feels like he is not doing that, however.  Instead he is merely stating that he would not discuss the topic because some would take it to be advertising, thereby letting all know that he has the goods to sell, but not adding to the thread's actual topic.  By not discussing the actual topic's issue in this manner, he is dissing his competition by inferring that he is the only correct opinion out there while not even giving his opinion.  That's what gets my goat.


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## jhaworth (Aug 12, 2011)

*Please stop the bickering and answer the question*

The original post asked if if there were any notable differences in the quality of pen kits that are available. Someone who hopefully has worked with different brands and has found notable differences between manufacturers. Instead, all we get is complaining about advertisement, etc. If you've worked with different brands and feel strongly about the quality of such, please give me your opinion. If you're here to advertise, complain, or keep your comments a secret. Why are you wasting my time? 
I'm looking at purchasing many pen kits. I want the best quality. I just want to know which kits I should buy. I have only worked with the PSI kits and wonder if I should be using another brand.


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## PenMan1 (Aug 12, 2011)

The Berea sets and Dayacom kits appear to be the same quality and many times both appear to be made EXACTLY the same.

Where the quality difference seems to be most noticeable is with platings offered. Because of past plating issues, I only offer the better platings black TI, gold TI, chrome and rhodium. (and only Berea and Dayacom).

The 10k, 24k, satin finishes, sterling, etc. just don't meet my expectations.

Additionally, I try to use only the sets made in Tiwian. The products that I have used from China have had some serious issues- plating AND mechanical.

I hope this helps.


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## JohnU (Aug 12, 2011)

[/QUOTE] By not discussing the actual topic's issue in this manner, he is dissing his competition by inferring that he is the only correct opinion out there while not even giving his opinion.  That's what gets my goat.[/QUOTE]

I don't think he meant that at all.  In the past there were some pretty heated posts about special treatment and advertising.  I thought it was all BS like many here but some seen it another way.  It raised some pretty heated posts and hurt the site for some.  I think Ed was just being up front about why he wasn't posting his opinion.  JMHO

As to the original post ... Ive found that supporting the IAP vendors has worked in getting quality supplies.  They are turners and members here so they see and hear what works for them and us and it isn't just a sale.  It has been a friendship in the making.  I see questions asked and answered, opinions on kits and platings, and questions on who would be interested in purchases befor the orders.  I like it and support as many here as I can.  

As for me, I like the jr gents II and jr statesman kits.  I usually get the Rhodium. I think they have a nice classy look with out being too flashy. I've never had a bad one.


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## jhaworth (Aug 12, 2011)

Thanks John! I have many Majestics and Majestic Jrs in my library. Thought maybe I would try some others to espand my library. If I do, I will need the bushings, etc to do this. Wasn't sure if it was worth the investment. I like the look of the statesman (jr) and may go that rout. Thanks for your input.


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## sbell111 (Aug 12, 2011)

As I mentioned upthread, I have seen some issues with CSUSA kits, as I have with the 'clone' kits (in about the same percentage).  The CSUSA problems that come to mind have been bad (irregular) plating on black Ti Jr Gent IIs, damaged (squished) tubes, missing parts and incorrect items shipped.  

Again, these are not frequent issues and are similar in problem (and frequency) that we've had with other suppliers.


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## Mapster (Aug 12, 2011)

As far as kits, in my opinion you can't go wrong with purchasing from any small scale businesses. For example, I have purchased from Arizona Silhouette, Exotic Blanks, Woodnwhimsies, and Bear Tooth Woods and they have all been very good to me. The kits seem to be about the same quality, and it mainly depends on the finish you buy. I too used to only make majestics and Majestic Jr.s, but have come to find that the accents on the Statesman series are much more clean and crisp. If you are looking for the fancy look, but not over the top, you would be hard pressed to beat the Jr gents, especially black titanium and rhodium. The quality is there, the kit looks great, and the finish holds up. Plus you only need to buy bushings because you have the drill bits for those kits.


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## PenMan1 (Aug 12, 2011)

sbell111 said:


> As I mentioned upthread, I have seen some issues with CSUSA kits, as I have with the 'clone' kits (in about the same percentage). The CSUSA problems that come to mind have been bad (irregular) plating on black Ti Jr Gent IIs, damaged (squished) tubes, missing parts and incorrect items shipped.
> 
> Again, these are not frequent issues and are similar in problem (and frequency) that we've had with other suppliers.


 
These problems were likely about the time CSUSA was "dabbling" with the Chinese clones. I have not seen a single issue since the change back to the Dayacom sets.

There may be some good Chinese made "clones", and I just haven't found thiem. My short-lived experience with those was awful!


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## sbell111 (Aug 12, 2011)

PenMan1 said:


> sbell111 said:
> 
> 
> > As I mentioned upthread, I have seen some issues with CSUSA kits, as I have with the 'clone' kits (in about the same percentage). The CSUSA problems that come to mind have been bad (irregular) plating on black Ti Jr Gent IIs, damaged (squished) tubes, missing parts and incorrect items shipped.
> ...



As far as I am aware, CSUSA's JGII's have always been dayacom sets.  Their JGI's, of course, are not.


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## Smitty37 (Aug 12, 2011)

*I wouldn't bet on it*



hewunch said:


> jhaworth said:
> 
> 
> > I've only been turning pens for about two years and have used mostly Penn state products. Good quality kits, especially the high end products like the Majestics and Broadwell series. Just curious, are there better kits out there? I'm looking at Woodcraft and Craft supplies. Craft offers pretty good discounts when you order in bulk. Also, *there are the Dayacom kits* that are pretty expensive. Are they worth the price? Keeping my options open and looking for input.
> ...


 
Not too long ago Dayacom told me they were not dealing with PSI.  Also I've been in touch with a company called Mainmold Technology Co. Ltd, also a Taiwanese company, and when I asked them where in the USA I could buy their kits to check the quality....their response was PSI.


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## Smitty37 (Aug 12, 2011)

sbell111 said:


> PenMan1 said:
> 
> 
> > Keith:
> ...


I agree, their apprentice line kits that I've seen are chinese made.  I wouldn't take bets that they have all their eggs in one basket with the standard kits either although that's just a gut feel since they've often said that certain kits are made by Dayacom.


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## timberbits (Aug 14, 2011)

Smitty37 said:


> sbell111 said:
> 
> 
> > PenMan1 said:
> ...



I am 90% sure that all the apprentice range comes from Rizheng. I was told this was the case from a very reliable source. 

It seems that Rizheng is the main supplier of pen kits out of Main Land China. They seem to be supplying the slimlines to Craft Supplies, Woodturnings, PSI and quite a few others. Not to mention quite a few other kits as well.

Rizheng is trying to crack into the higher end pen kits..... we will see how well that goes. The quality of slimlines seems to be improving as is their selection of platings.

It was PSI who got Rizheng into pen kits quite a few years ago. 

Dayacom said they stop supplying PSI with pen kits quite a few years ago.


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## PenMan1 (Aug 14, 2011)

David:
I feel certain that you are correct about Apprentice being  Rizheng. I quit buying this line years ago as I was ashamed to even give these away.

Additionally, I don't know how true the story may be, but I was told that about 2 years ago, that Rizheng took a stab at the Artisan line and failed. Therefore, The Artisan line went back to Dayacom.


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## timberbits (Aug 14, 2011)

PenMan1 said:


> David:
> Additionally, I don't know how true the story may be, but I was told that about 2 years ago, that Rizheng took a stab at the Artisan line and failed. Therefore, The Artisan line went back to Dayacom.



They are moving down the path of the EB, Up-range Cigars, Full size Gents (Chairman) and JR Gents.

They are trying to imitate the Emperors and Lotus with different engravings but I think they will have problems with the platings side of things. 

It's extremely frustrating when you spend $20+ on a kit and end up with fur and dust marks all over the plated surface.

The plating standards in Mainland China are still not up to scratch with the quality being produced in Taiwan and Japan. Japan is not doing much these days due to power restrictions.


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## Smitty37 (Aug 14, 2011)

*Not all*

Rizheng told me that they are not the supplier of at least 1 of CSUSA's apprentice kits and their catalog does not include all of the CSUSA apprentice line kits.  I believe they do supply some of them.

There are several other mainland kit makers in China.  At least one of them makes kits for Rizheng and won't make any of those kits for other buyers although they will make kits for them that they do not make for rizheng. 

Since there is no inherent reason that Chinese workers can't make good products, I expect the quality from them to continue improving.  It has certainly improved during the time I have been doing business with them.

Keep in mind that it is not the cost of labor (although it is low there) that gives China it's big price advantage in the US market place.  It is currency manipulation keeping their currency artificially low against the US Dollar.  Also, we should not lose sight of what the Chinese are learning...it cost's no more to do it right than to do it wrong and often costs less.  As we used to say "Quality does not cost...it pays"


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## Daniel (Aug 14, 2011)

Please ogh Please make this group everything I could possibly dream of it being. I don't want to have to do a single thing to make it that way myself. I have not one shred of understnading of what it actually takes to make this group anything at all. And if I did I woudl think you are insane to even consider asking such effort of me. but please let me nag and whine and bitch to the point that no one is willing to do anything at all.

I mean my candy ass piece of **** complaining makes this so much finer an atmosphere. I'm just sorry the rest of you can't see it.


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## Wildman (Aug 14, 2011)

Each of the top three pen kit suppliers, Berea, Craft Supplies, and Penn State have outstanding pen kits as well some dogs. Berea and Penn State have the most resellers. The best kit is the one you like to make for fun or profit. 

Same goes for who and where pen kits are made.  

With so many vendors selling pen kits and pen making supplies makes the craft interesting.


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## arw01 (Aug 14, 2011)

Would this be something we could crowd source together into a google docs spreadsheet or something similar, like a IAP Wiki?

Personally, the tube and bushing pdf out of the library has been a handy name cross reference.  If it quacks like a duck, fits like a duck, tools like a duck, then it's probably a duck!

Alan


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## sbell111 (Aug 14, 2011)

arw01 said:


> Would this be something we could crowd source together into a google docs spreadsheet or something similar, like a IAP Wiki?
> 
> Personally, the tube and bushing pdf out of the library has been a handy name cross reference.  If it quacks like a duck, fits like a duck, tools like a duck, then it's probably a duck!
> 
> Alan



As Wildman suggested just above, I don't think it matters.  Some are convinced that anything from mainland China is bad, but don't realize that some of the kits that they use from the big sellers are from China. 

I'm not so concerned with which factory my kits were made in.  I'll buy kits that are of good quality and that sell well.


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## DurocShark (Aug 15, 2011)

arw01 said:


> Would this be something we could crowd source together into a google docs spreadsheet or something similar, like a IAP Wiki?
> 
> Personally, the tube and bushing pdf out of the library has been a handy name cross reference.  If it quacks like a duck, fits like a duck, tools like a duck, then it's probably a duck!
> 
> Alan


We have a wiki: http://www.penturners.org/wiki/Main_Page

There, I created the page to start things off: http://www.penturners.org/wiki/Kit_sources


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## Grizz (Aug 15, 2011)

Okay... this thread has taken so many zig zags and 'Johnson measuring' I've totally lost if there was ever an answer to the original post.


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