# Last question please



## skiprat (Jan 16, 2010)

Hi all,
I think I've cracked the mystery of my new camera and I think I've got all the settings to look good. 
However, just one last little snag....
As much as I try, the focus has so far beaten me, but I think I'm real close to getting there.

Here's what I found...

Either with the camera real close or even with it further away and then zoomed in, I pretty much fill the LCD screen. Take the pic and download to laptop. I open the pic in Windows Office Picture Manager. It opens with the pic normally around 25% of actual size. It looks a bit out of focus. 
I crop it as required.
Still out of focus. Pic on screen is about 40% actual size.

Now here's the thing....if I change the setting in the software on my laptop to show 100% it zooms in and the focus is perfect!!!

Am I losing the focus in software compression or something?
And of course, please tell me how to overcome it.

Thanks in advance:wink:


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## Lenny (Jan 16, 2010)

I think I have noticed that to a degree before as well. Maybe you should just switch to a different program .... Picasa, Irfanview,Gimp are all available for free download.


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## skiprat (Jan 17, 2010)

Lenny, I used to have Picassa3 on my previous laptop and really liked the 'straighten' function. I used it to make sure a free-standing cap was parallel to the edge of the pic. I'll download it today again, but I really want to be able to take reasonable pics straight from the camera without having to tweak them later.

I think I've got a lot better with the focus issue. I 'think' it's got more to do with the other settings rather than the focus itself.
The close up was when the camera was at F5 and the exposure time was at 1/100th sec. When viewed as a whole pic it looked pretty poor.
After experimenting with the F stop and exp, I got to F6.4 and 1/50th sec and it seems much better to me. I found that by playing with the exp time, I could bring a bit of the shine back to the blank and the metal parts. Too fast and the pic looked dull ( out of focus? ) Too slow and there was too much glare. 
I'll get there eventually!!!:biggrin:


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## NewLondon88 (Jan 17, 2010)

If you zoom in to 100% and it is in focus, then I don't think focus is the problem
at all. You have a fixed number of pixels on your screen, and a fixed number of
pixels in the photo.. so when you display it on the monitor at less than 100%, 
the viewing program must hide most of the pixels to show you an approximation
of the photo. In other words, you're not looking at the actual picture, but a
rough guess. You're trying to view more pixels than the monitor can display.

For instance .. if your photo is 3000 x 2000 and your monitor is 1280x1024
(just picking some numbers) then when you view the photo "Fit To Screen"
then the software is hiding almost 80% of your data. It is making a 'best
guess' as to which pixels to display on the monitor, but it is not changing
your actual image file. (the data is still there, just not being used at the moment)

But if you save the file this way, then it will discard that 80%. It will
do so based on your software settings for things like compression quality,
dithering, compression type etc. Once saved, that data can't be recovered.

That's a good reason to save the full file without any compression or processing
and work on a 'copy' of the file. Save in RAW or uncompressed TIFF format right
on the camera (takes a lot of room, though) and then convert to jpeg in another
folder to do your editing. That way if you find the editing degraded the photo
more than you'd like, you still have the RAW file to go back to.

Clear as mud?


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## skiprat (Jan 17, 2010)

NewLondon88 said:


> If you zoom in to 100% and it is in focus, then I don't think focus is the problem
> at all. You have a fixed number of pixels on your screen, and a fixed number of
> pixels in the photo.. so when you display it on the monitor at less than 100%,
> the viewing program must hide most of the pixels to show you an approximation
> ...


 
Thanks:biggrin:


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## ldubia (Jan 17, 2010)

> That's a good reason to save the full file without any compression or processing
> and work on a 'copy' of the file. Save in RAW or uncompressed TIFF format right
> on the camera (takes a lot of room, though) and then convert to jpeg in another
> folder to do your editing. That way if you find the editing degraded the photo
> ...


One thing to point out...do your "save as" _*BEFORE*_ doing any editing so there are no changes made at all to the original even by mistake.  Keep all of the original files in a folder marked as such and save the copies n a folder marked as copies (or something like this) to keep them away from each other.    This way there is  no mistake in opening and working on the wrong file.

And the mud keeps getting clearer.  :biggrin:

Larry
(computer geek and certified offthewallogist)


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## PR_Princess (Jan 17, 2010)

Skippy, I hate to break this to you..... But your new camera will just not work right  until you take and post a picture of it's owner! :tongue::biggrin::biggrin:


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## skiprat (Jan 17, 2010)

PR_Princess said:


> Skippy, I hate to break this to you..... But your new camera will just not work right until you take and post a picture of it's owner! :tongue::biggrin::biggrin:


 
LOL, FAT CHANCE I don't want to break the damned thing just yet !!!!:tongue:

but there are about 3 pics of me on IAP already:wink:


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## gketell (Jan 17, 2010)

Skippy,

If you do "save as JPG" and then re-open the file and edit and do "save" and then re-open the file and edit and do "save" and then re-open the file and edit and do "save".... you now have crud for a picture.  JPG uses a "lossy" compression algorithm which means every time you do a save or save as you lose a little more quality.  I think I read in one article that after saving a picture 8 times (even at highest Jpg quality) you will have nothing but a blur.

So to reiterate what Larry said, as soon as you download the file save it in a folder called "originals", then open it for editing, make all your editing one time (crop, straighten, color adjust, etc (but not "sharpen" yet)), resize it to what you need for that photo, now do sharpen if you need it, and Save As to a different location/name.  On my software I do a 700pixel, medium quality JPG (8 or 9 out of 12) and it uploads to this site perfectly every time.

If you decide you need to change things for some reason, open the original and redo your edits making the changes you need.

If you open the file the first time and then immediately do a "save as" TIFF, then no matter what edits you make you lose no more data.  Then when you are ready to post just do a "save as" JPG and you are golden.  

Or you could use PNG file format which is a non-lossy compression so you have the quality benefits of not-JPG with the size benefits of JPG to save disk space.  And (I think) you can upload PNG to this site as easily as JPG.  Ooops, I just checked... they don't allow PNG files anywhere near as big as JPG files.  So for this site specifically, I would always save as JPG.  Not JPEG (that is just as small as PNG, just JPG.

I hope that wasn't too "stream of consciousness" to be useful.
GK


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## skiprat (Jan 17, 2010)

Thanks Greg. I think I'll have to read that half a dozen times to understand it, but I'll give it a go.

Is a jpg the same as a JPG? I'm not sure if I even have a choice of what format to save / download them from the camera onto my laptop.

But I only download it once. Then I open it. Then I do the cropping. I then choose 'Save As' for the cropped pic and give it a new name. I also save it in a different folder. When I've finished and close the software program, it asks if I want to save the changes, I say no. Will the original still get trashed?

Thanks again for all the help you've given so far. :biggrin:


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## sgimbel (Jan 17, 2010)

Do whatever you have to do to get the F stop to a higher number.  Usually it takes more light.  The higher the F stop number the more depth of field you'll get and the sharper the focus will be.


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## gketell (Jan 17, 2010)

Yes, JPG and jpg are the same.  And are both functionally equivalent to JPEG and jpeg.  The only difference is how the vBulletin software (which is what IAP uses) recognizes them by name.  JPG/jpg is set for 800 pixels, 100 Kbytes.  JPEG/jpeg/png are all set to 620 pixels, 19.2 Kbyes.   

It sounds like the way you are handling your files is very well.

And if your pen is parallel to the back of the camera (both left to right and top to bottom) then your depth of field can be very shallow.  But if you aren't parallel then you need to get the biggest f-stop you can so when you focus at the "front 1/3", the rest is in focus too.

GK



skiprat said:


> Thanks Greg. I think I'll have to read that half a dozen times to understand it, but I'll give it a go.
> 
> Is a jpg the same as a JPG? I'm not sure if I even have a choice of what format to save / download them from the camera onto my laptop.
> 
> ...


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## BRobbins629 (Jan 17, 2010)

What about those of us who don't want the focus on their pen pictures to be too good?


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## skiprat (Jan 17, 2010)

BRobbins629 said:


> What about those of us who don't want the focus on their pen pictures to be too good?


 
LOL, You're kidding right???  :hypnotized: Your pens deserve a fancy SLR, I'll just stick to the point and shoot for now.:biggrin::tongue:

Well I've killed a big pack of batteries and my head hurts, so I'll try again tomorrow. 

Note to self; Buy a power supply for the camera, you cheapskate!!!:biggrin:


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## randyrls (Jan 17, 2010)

Higher F-stop numbers have a greater depth of field, so you are more likely to have focus problems with lower F-stop numbers.  I always try to get my stop number as high as I can, assuming that I can get a good exposure with the self-timer and tripod.


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## skiprat (Jan 17, 2010)

Finally figured out how to resize in Picasa
Please tell me which is heading in the right direction


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## NewLondon88 (Jan 17, 2010)

skiprat said:


> *Thanks Charlie. That actually makes so much sense that I'm almost embarrased that I asked the question :redface:*



Why????  Neither of us were born knowing everything, except me. :tongue:

Now you know how I sometimes feel asking you guys metal lathe questions.
different people know different things, that's all.




skiprat said:


> *RAW and Tiff are still beyond me for now but I do 'Save As' once I've cropped etc so the big pic is still on my computer*



A couple of points on what Larry and Greg were saying:
I'm pretty sure your camera will allow you to save the file as a TIFF or
in RAW format RIGHT ON THE CAMERA. RAW format means the camera
doesn't mess with it at all while saving. That's the least chance of any
data loss or your image being messed around with. Most cameras do a lot
of processing of the image before it even gets saved in the camera, let
alone transferred to your computer. A lot of the cameras will do sharpening
or color corrections to the image. And the majority of the time that's OK.
But it helps to know that the camera is doing this, because it may be
introducing problems in your particular photos and you won't know why.
(shooting pens isn't a photo that the camera would typically expect)

The disadvantages to saving in RAW format are
1) The file is huge. No compression, it saves every pixel. So you take
up a lot more disk space in the camera.
2) You need to convert the file from RAW format. Your camera should
have come with a CD that has the conversion software on it. The 
conversion takes a while. (surprising how long it takes, really)

When I say it saves every pixel, that is compared to jpg, jpeg, tiff, png
and such .. think of it like those formats saving the instructions on how to
rebuild the photo when you open it, rather than saving the actual photo
itself.

Everything is a tradeoff, somehow.. you just decide when it is appropriate
and when it isn't. Sometimes you need to save every pixel.. and sometimes
compression is just fine.


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## gketell (Jan 17, 2010)

I really like the middle one.  The background color helps both the dark and the light highlights stand out very well!

The first one isn't quite fully in focus.  The finial end is kinda "soft".


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## Lenny (Jan 17, 2010)

What are you using for a metering mode? Average, center weighted, spot etc. ?
Along with all the other good advice you have received you might want to experiment with that, in particular try using "spot" mode. 
As for your original question ... for some reason many software programs will do that (look out of focus at less than 100% zoom) but if it looks good at 100% ... then you are good!!!


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## skiprat (Jan 18, 2010)

Thanks again guys.
Charlie, I'll go through the CD today and see what it says about saving in RAW and TIFF.
Greg, I agree about the middle one too. Or perhaps the last one.
Lenny, I think I was in 'Average' and assumed that 'Spot' would only focus on the centre of the pic. I did that because even in a good pic the very tip of the nib and refill still looked a bit out.

Cheers:wink:


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## Displaced Canadian (Jan 18, 2010)

I would go with the last one.


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