# 2012 Best of IAP Contest - Discussion Thread



## jeff (Aug 12, 2012)

The announcement and rules for the 2012 Best of IAP Contest has been posted here.

Please use this thread for discussion, questions, etc.

GOOD LUCK if you enter!


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## skiprat (Aug 12, 2012)

Hi Jeff,
Is this contest open to all? ( Will sponsor ship mags to Int member etc )
If so, can International entrants pay by Paypal? 

Time to dust of the cobwebs in the Rat Cave:biggrin: 

Thanks


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## jeff (Aug 12, 2012)

skiprat said:


> Hi Jeff,
> Is this contest open to all? ( Will sponsor ship mags to Int member etc )
> If so, can International entrants pay by Paypal?
> 
> ...



I think on the first point, probably yes, but I'll check to make sure. We are, after all, an international organization!

On the second point, I'll pass the question on to [profile]Scott[/profile] as he's handling the fees.


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## mredburn (Aug 12, 2012)

I would suggest that in the segmenting class no cnc produced parts or pens. This levels the field and focuses on hand work skills rather than programming. In the open class no problem.


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## jeff (Aug 12, 2012)

mredburn said:


> I would suggest that in the segmenting class no cnc produced parts or pens. This levels the field and focuses on hand work skills rather than programming. In the open class no problem.



I think Scott would certainly consider that for next year. The rules were hashed out between the judges and sponsors and are likely not going to change this year other than for clarifications. I agree that it's a good idea, though! I'll make sure Scott sees this post.


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## mredburn (Aug 12, 2012)

Since no one has submitted a pen yet, this rule would only effect where the pen was submitted to.  It might affect someone who wouldnt submit a pen because "I cant compete with  a cnc mill or lathe"


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## brownsfn2 (Aug 12, 2012)

Can't wait to see all of the awesome submissions!!  Good luck everyone!


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## Ed McDonnell (Aug 12, 2012)

mredburn said:


> I would suggest that in the segmenting class no cnc produced parts or pens. This levels the field and focuses on hand work skills rather than programming. In the open class no problem.



That's a slippery slope.  

A computer controlled tool is just a tool.  The second through the billionth of something made (if there is ever more than the first) will involve a lot less work than the first, but the first of anything involves quite a bit of hand usage in the creation.  Perhaps more than not using a  computer controlled tool.  But the point is that a CNC type tool is still just a tool.

If the intent is to truly level the field for production of contest entries, then should expensive ultra accurate micro saws, metal lathes, kilns, foundry equipment, various artist made jigs and other stuff that are not owned by the majority be fair game for elimination as well?  

Maybe there should there be a category with a defined allowed minimalist set of tools?

Ed


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## edstreet (Aug 12, 2012)

Actually you CAN compete with a cnc machine, even laser cutting machines.  The key point is I am not going there in this thread.


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## edstreet (Aug 12, 2012)

Is group makers excluded from the contest?


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## Scott (Aug 12, 2012)

Welcome to the Best of IAP Contest for 2012!

There have been some questions.  Let me try to answer them.

The contest is open to all.  We are not excluding anyone.

I cannot speak for Pen World, but if they can't do the subscription for some reason, we will make sure an alternate prize is awarded.

As for PayPal, let me think about it.

Yes, you can make your pens now.  Better yet, make them yesterday.  Read the rules!

The contest is designed for individual entrants.

Scott.


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## edstreet (Aug 12, 2012)

Guess that excludes me.


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## skiprat (Aug 13, 2012)

Scott said:


> Welcome to the Best of IAP Contest for 2012!
> 
> There have been some questions. Let me try to answer them.
> 
> ...


 
Scott,
I'd gladly send a cheque instead of Paypal, but hardly anyone even has a cheque book in the UK anymore. I stopped using them several years ago. Not sure about other countries. I'd pay a bit more to cover Paypal charges if needed. :biggrin:

If Pen World can't / won't do an International subscription, then maybe they should change their name to Pen USA.:wink:


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## BRobbins629 (Aug 13, 2012)

skiprat said:


> Scott said:
> 
> 
> > Welcome to the Best of IAP Contest for 2012!
> ...


Skippy - I'll send a check for you if necessary. I'll even scan the magazine for you when I win.


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## skiprat (Aug 13, 2012)

Thanks Bruce, you're all heart !!!:tongue:

Deluded, but kind:biggrin:


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## mredburn (Aug 13, 2012)

Hey I would have made the same offer!  I would have even mentioned you in my acceptance speech!


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## Dalecamino (Aug 14, 2012)

Sounds like a few are celebrating a bit early. :biggrin: Don't forget, I'm in this too :tongue::biggrin:


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## Scott (Aug 14, 2012)

I guess you all can go back to calling it Pen World Magazine!  I just heard back from Laura, the Editor, and she said they would honor the subscription prize regardless of where you live.

Now you need to hold up your end of things and make some pens that might win!

Scott.


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## Scott (Aug 14, 2012)

edstreet said:


> Guess that excludes me.



Why don't you send me a PM that explains your situation, and I can see if it fits any of our categories.

Scott.


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## edstreet (Aug 14, 2012)

Scott said:


> edstreet said:
> 
> 
> > Guess that excludes me.
> ...



NO need for a PM, this has already been public and no reason to exclude others in this and only make the problem worse.



> The contest is designed for individual entrants.



Group entries.  Say I get 2,3,4,5+ people together each a very unique and talented craftsman which does one section of the pen.  We group together to create one pen of uniqueness that has never been done before in the pen world. The submitted entries would be for every one that worked on the pen, i.e. group entry.

This would not fit into any areas of the contest and it would clearly upstage all other entries.  This is a pet project I have been toying with for about 3 years now.

Ed


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## skiprat (Aug 14, 2012)

Scott said:


> I guess you all can go back to calling it Pen World Magazine! I just heard back from Laura, the Editor, and she said they would honor the subscription prize regardless of where you live.
> 
> Now you need to hold up your end of things and make some pens that might win!
> 
> Scott.


 
Many thanks Scott ( and Laura too of course :biggrin: ) 
I like to compete, but I'm not too fussed about winning. I get the biggest kick by taking the mick out of my fellow entrants. 
I will try and enter at least two catagories though. :wink:

Thanks again
Steven


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## Scott (Aug 14, 2012)

Thanks Steven!  I'm looking forward to seeing them.

edstreet, collaborations have been around before, and some great pens have come from the effort.  If enough people were to express an interest we could look at a collaborative category for a future contest.  Keep your eyes open during the Bash in February.

Scott.


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## firewhatfire (Aug 15, 2012)

Can the submitted pen be evaluated for the Pen Makers Guild at the same time,  If the appropriate paperwork is filled out

I think the last years overall winner was.


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## mredburn (Aug 15, 2012)

firewhatfire said:


> Can the submitted pen be evaluated for the Pen Makers Guild at the same time,  If the appropriate paperwork is filled out
> 
> I think the last years overall winner was.




Im pretty sure it can be. I will check with my sources.....

Yes the answer is yes.


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## Scott (Aug 15, 2012)

firewhatfire said:


> Can the submitted pen be evaluated for the Pen Makers Guild at the same time,  If the appropriate paperwork is filled out
> 
> I think the last years overall winner was.



I was under the impression that submission to the Guild required actually sending the entry pen to the Guild for evaluation.  If this is the case, it would be impossible to enter this contest and submit the pen to the Guild at the same time.  

I think it would be good to submit the pen to the Guild at the end of the contest.  And since one of the judges for the contest is also with the Guild, we might even be able to arrange for him to retain the pen for evaluation by the Guild Masters.  I could talk to Kurt about that, or he might just jump in here.

If you do want to arrange something like this you would need to arrange it with Kurt and myself.  I normally wouldn't get involved, but the entries for the contest are sent to the judges without any identifying information as to who the maker is.  So if we arrange for Kurt to keep the pen, he wouldn't be able to know which one to keep until after the results of the contest were announced.

It just seems that it would be neater to return the pens after the judging, and then you could submit to the Guild.

Thoughts?

Scott.


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## firewhatfire (Aug 15, 2012)

I appreciate the replies, considering the pen I am wanting to build is only a idea in my head.  I may be only inquiring for others whom may have wondered.  I have learned so much from doing and since last years attempt that it makes me want to tell everyone on the board they should attempt at least 1 category.

Phil


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## Glenn McCullough (Aug 16, 2012)

[FQUOTE=skiprat;1431638]





Scott said:


> Welcome to the Best of IAP Contest for 2012!
> 
> There have been some questions. Let me try to answer them.
> 
> ...


 
Scott,
I'd gladly send a cheque instead of Paypal, but hardly anyone even has a cheque book in the UK anymore. I stopped using them several years ago. Not sure about other countries. I'd pay a bit more to cover Paypal charges if needed. :biggrin:

If Pen World can't / won't do an International subscription, then maybe they should change their name to Pen USA.:wink:[/QUOTE]

LoOkit skippy...bein snippy!!!


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## Glenn McCullough (Aug 16, 2012)

This pen would be entered in the Collaborative Challenge. that does not mean you couldn't submit an article to PW on it's creation, perhapse they would publish an article.



edstreet said:


> Scott said:
> 
> 
> > edstreet said:
> ...


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## firewhatfire (Aug 21, 2012)

If a pen is sent in at the beginning of the Contest will it be held until the end, Or will it be sent on to the judges and returned?


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## Scott (Sep 5, 2012)

firewhatfire said:


> If a pen is sent in at the beginning of the Contest will it be held until the end, Or will it be sent on to the judges and returned?



Sorry, I was on vacation when you asked this question.  Yes, all the entries are held until the end of the entry period, and are then sent around to the judges together.  Finally they are sent back to me and I return them to everyone.

The entry form is up, and the entry period is open!  Start sending them in!

Scott.


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## Kaspar (Sep 12, 2012)

Thanks for extending the deadline.  I've spent the last week moving to new digs, and I wasn't sure I'd be up to getting one done in time, but now, I will definitely try to enter.


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## Buzzzz4 (Sep 14, 2012)

Yippeee! I got one done and only had to remake part of it once after it flew off the buffing wheel and crashed into the wall!


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## MartinPens (Sep 14, 2012)

I got my entries in the mail. That was fun! Whatever the outcome. : )

Sent from my iPad using Forum Runner


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## Ed McDonnell (Sep 16, 2012)

For fountain pens, should they be sent inked or dry?  I'm guessing dry which leads me to ask - If dry, should they have an empty converter installed, a cartridge in the barrel (but not installed) or ????  If they will be dip tested, should a small bottle of ink be sent along with the pen?

Obviously, this is the first time I've done an IAP contest.  I tried searching, but I didn't find an answer.

Ed


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## Buzzzz4 (Sep 16, 2012)

Last year they were dip tested. It was not necessary to send ink.


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## Scott (Sep 16, 2012)

Yay!  I received the first entries!  Thanks Martin!

Now, where's all the rest?  

Yes, send the fountain pens dry, and if the judges want to try them they can dip them.  I'm sure they can rummage up some ink somehow!

Scott.


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## BRobbins629 (Sep 16, 2012)

Scott said:


> Yay!  I received the first entries!  Thanks Martin!
> 
> Now, where's all the rest?
> 
> ...


Coming - be patient...


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## Buzzzz4 (Sep 16, 2012)

Hitting the mail in the morning... Definitely pushed my boundaries with this one. Hope they like it.


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## Brooks803 (Sep 16, 2012)

Well I missed last year's contest with a broken thumb...now I just had back surgery....something tells me I won't be making it again this year. Which really bums me out bc I had some really killer ideas that I wanted to try!


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## Dalecamino (Sep 17, 2012)

I can't believe it's been almost a year. But, even with the extension, I won't be entering this time. Should take some of the pressure off you guys.:biggrin: Looking forward to seeing the entries though.


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## Glenn McCullough (Sep 20, 2012)

any day, now!


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## triw51 (Sep 20, 2012)

Is there a catagory for begginners?


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## MartinPens (Sep 20, 2012)

Wow! I'm surprised mine were the first to arrive.
I never like going first. : )
Looking forward to seeing all of the inspiring entries.

Martin

Sent from my iPad using Forum Runner


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## Ed McDonnell (Sep 22, 2012)

Two pens in the mail this morning.  Going to see if I can get a third ready for mailing on Monday.

Ed


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## Scott (Sep 24, 2012)

Time is short!  If you intend to enter this contest you need to be sending them in now!

Scott.


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## mredburn (Sep 27, 2012)

sent mine out overnight delivery. I hope you live somewhere civilized and not in a cabin above treeline.


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## Ed McDonnell (Sep 27, 2012)

I checked google maps to make sure he wasn't on the frontier somewhere unreachable before sending mine by USPS.  Hope they made it.  He's in a pretty urban (*1) area.

Ed

(*1) Urban is a relative term.  We are talking about Idaho!


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## Scott (Sep 27, 2012)

Urban means I can't shoot my gun out of my window without worrying about the neighbors (shooting back)!

One more day for all these pens to arrive!  WooHoo!

Scott.


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## Buzzzz4 (Sep 27, 2012)

Very curious to know totals of entrants for the categories and can't wait to see the photos!


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## MartinPens (Sep 28, 2012)

Just realized I was too quick to get them mailed out and forgot to photograph them prior to departure. (doh!)
If there's any type of show and tell thread, mine will have to wait until I get them back.
Best of luck to all the entrants - I enjoy the contests - keeps the creative juices flowing.


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## Scott (Sep 28, 2012)

MartinPens said:


> Just realized I was too quick to get them mailed out and forgot to photograph them prior to departure. (doh!)
> If there's any type of show and tell thread, mine will have to wait until I get them back.
> Best of luck to all the entrants - I enjoy the contests - keeps the creative juices flowing.



Dang Martin!  You need to learn to photograph them!  How will you know if I send you back the right pens?  :biggrin:

Scott.


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## Scott (Sep 28, 2012)

I have sent out emails to all the people who I have received pens from so far.  If you have sent in an entry and haven't received an email, then I haven't received them yet.  If this is the case, please email me or post here letting me know there is a pen on the way.  I will wait and accept all pens that are on their way now.  But please let me know so I can wait for them!

Scott.


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## mredburn (Sep 28, 2012)

Have you received today's mail?


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## Scott (Sep 28, 2012)

Yes, I have received today's mail.  But I just got a FedEx from Jung Jae Hong, and I got a Call from the post office saying there's a package there for me.  So they are arriving throughout the day, but I'll still wait for any that are in transit.

Scott.


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## BRobbins629 (Sep 28, 2012)

Sent one last Saturday by prioroty mail - should have been there.


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## Scott (Sep 28, 2012)

BRobbins629 said:


> Sent one last Saturday by prioroty mail - should have been there.



Yes, your pen is here!  My darn email must not have made it though.  :bulgy-eyes:

Scott.


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## MartinPens (Sep 29, 2012)

Scott said:


> MartinPens said:
> 
> 
> > Just realized I was too quick to get them mailed out and forgot to photograph them prior to departure. (doh!)
> ...


 
I might not mind receiving an entry pen other than the ones I sent! : )


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## jttheclockman (Sep 29, 2012)

Gee I wish I would have known about this contest I think I would have taken a shot or two. Maybe it will be around next year. Look forward to seeing some great work.


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## skiprat (Sep 29, 2012)

jttheclockman said:


> Gee I wish I would have known about this contest I think I would have taken a shot or two. Maybe it will be around next year. Look forward to seeing some great work.


 
Gee John, how did you miss it??:wink:

I'd just like to wish all the entrants the very best of luck. We all know that all of the guys that have entered here are worthy winners, so it's a pity that only one will be chosen. Good luck guys!!:biggrin:


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## jttheclockman (Sep 29, 2012)

skiprat said:


> jttheclockman said:
> 
> 
> > Gee I wish I would have known about this contest I think I would have taken a shot or two. Maybe it will be around next year. Look forward to seeing some great work.
> ...


 

Hey Skip remember I have not been here for quite some time. Been back just last week and you had alot to do with that or maybe I still would not be here. :biggrin:

I too wish all alot of luck and hope we do see some exciting things come out of this.


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## Scott (Sep 30, 2012)

I think I have received all the pens I was expecting.  We had 27 entries this year.  That is fewer than last year.  It's enough entries to go ahead with the judging, but I am going to take a look at whether we'll continue this contest into the future.  If you have thoughts on the subject, please post them here.  I am willing to be influenced by honest feedback!

Scott.


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## firewhatfire (Sep 30, 2012)

I failed at getting mine completed.  I had a couple of ideas that just didn't come together.   I am pro the concept as it makes me advance my skill levels with each attempt even with the fail.

Phil


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## Dalecamino (Sep 30, 2012)

Scott said:


> I think I have received all the pens I was expecting.  We had 27 entries this year.  That is fewer than last year.  It's enough entries to go ahead with the judging, but I am going to take a look at whether we'll continue this contest into the future.  If you have thoughts on the subject, please post them here.  I am willing to be influenced by honest feedback!
> 
> Scott.


Personally, I took most of the year to get better at making pens. Then spent some time making pens that were requested of me. Didn't even consider THAT happening. Didn't consider evacuating early for hurricane Isaac either. So, I was out of time to make the deadline.

I think the contest should continue, whether I have an entry or not. Viewing another thread, I can see that some pen makers are very proud of their entries. JMHO


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## mredburn (Sep 30, 2012)

I also would like to see them continue, I am a competitor by nature. So I like the competitions, Win Lose or Draw.  I had 3 pen designs slated to build for this contest but just before you announced them I got busy with work and had to scramble to put any kind of entry in. Im not sure what you can do to encourage participation. I find people cant be beat into competing and yet we have some very fine pen makers on this site. I dont know if more challenging? or boasting  types of posts would help to persuade more  people into entering. I know in any spectrum of competitions there are those that wont enter because they already feel they cant win. Im not sure how many classes or style type of compititons  you can make to entice more winners. Do we need more time for the international members to have time to prepare? Prize money? Would an interview in the magazines spark more interest? Some one who has decided not to enter would have to share their reasons to enable us to overcome them.


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## Displaced Canadian (Sep 30, 2012)

I didn't enter the first year because I thought the "heavy bats" would enter and I wouldn't stand a chance. Then I noticed how few entries were in the segmented part of the competition and realized that if I had entered I would have had a good chance at winning. I entered 1 pen this year. I was going for 2 but life got in the way. I would like the contest to continue, A reminder 90 days before it starts would be a good idea. Granted for this year most of us had 12 months warning, I just sat on my hands until I only had 3 weeks. As for getting more people to try, it may just take people seeing what pens won and realizing that they have a chance at winning.


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## jttheclockman (Oct 1, 2012)

Scott said:


> I think I have received all the pens I was expecting. We had 27 entries this year. That is fewer than last year. It's enough entries to go ahead with the judging, but I am going to take a look at whether we'll continue this contest into the future. If you have thoughts on the subject, please post them here. I am willing to be influenced by honest feedback!
> 
> Scott.


 

Well Scott I will be glad to give an opinion or just some words because I have been told it seems I have an opinion about everything:biggrin:

I also would have entered 2 and possibly 3 pens this year if I was aware of this contest which being I stepped away from this site I totally forgot about. Thats here nor there and I think 27 pens is a fair amount of entries. 
Hopefully next year if still in existance.

One thing you have to remember even though the amount of members here is high most of them are beginners  ( and also quite afew have left) and I mean most. You have a certain few who are steps ahead of most and do some amazing work and are willing to share and post here. You see who these people are as well as everyone else.  Getting these people to enter is a better possibility. Others maybe intimidated by them so that drops them. Now you add on a $20 fee to enter and the field drops even more. So you are not speaking to a large pool of people. 

Now I see absolutly no downside in running this contest, only upsides. There is no cost to speak of, The magazine opens itself to new penmakers which is always a plus and you never know they may find that diamond in the rough. They open themselves to new subscriptions possibly because you are introducing a new element to their upscale magazine. And it gives some lesser known people a chance to make a splash or hit the jackpot or become a player in the "Shark Tank" 

This is probably the best known pen turning site on the net. So who better to run a contest like this at??  I think it does make people step up their game and you never know what may develop out of an entry.  I think the catagories are just right so I would not like to see any changes there. The entry fee, if needed and I do not see why it is, should be no more than $10. Everything else seems OK. 

 So if we are voting, I vote to continue the contest.


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## mredburn (Oct 1, 2012)

John. the Entry fee is to pay the postage to ship the pens to the judges and back to the owners. Pens have to be submitted physically for inspection and judging.


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## jttheclockman (Oct 1, 2012)

mredburn said:


> John. the Entry fee is to pay the postage to ship the pens to the judges and back to the owners. Pens have to be submitted physically for inspection and judging.


 

$20 X 27= $540????????????

Put them all in one box and ship and ship back. They are pens not glass bulbs


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## David M (Oct 1, 2012)

Just a thought or two. I like the contest alot and hope it stays. The timming of it make it hard for me getting ready for fall craft season , so if it was in the spring or early summer would give me more time ( sence there was no casing contest this year )to work on it. 
 As for the $ 20 ,  it is needed so I deal with it. I only do one pen in this contest ( you only need one lottery ticket to win , but you cant win if you dont play ) but I would play more if the second and third was like $ 5 / 10 extra, shipping for extra pen would cost much more and that would also help some ( but I would have to plan on making more than one for the contest ).
 Splitting up or making different catagories, like in the bash the casting was split in to color / embedded / on tube. I thing more of the casters would be more willing if they where in there comfort zone. ( That could also be a problem, who would want to judge as many different groups of pens like we had in the bash, all in one contest).
 There are alot of very good pen makers here and some great ones and getting some of them to enter is the problem. Some think that I dont have a chance and dont try. This is a very good contest and is published so doing good in it is a honor that could open up other doors. 
David


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## Curly (Oct 1, 2012)

John that applies to getting them from judge to judge but you still need to ship all 27 (or hundreds someday) back to the respective owners at the end of the contest. Don't forget the extra cost to send them to us foreign entrants. :wink: Of course if everyone was willing to send the pens in and not get them back then the entry could be $5.00 or less. :biggrin:


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## mredburn (Oct 1, 2012)

The pens are shipped 5 times after Scott receives them. once to each of the three  judges and then back to Scott then backthe owners. Some of It may also go toward  the prize monies.


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## mredburn (Oct 1, 2012)

Maybe we should have two or three levels of competitors. 
1st level - "Run with the Big Dogs"  $150.00 entry fee $2,000.00 in cash prizes plus a write up on the winners.
. 
2nd Level. -The view never changes.  $20.00 entry fee. $50 to first place winners $100.00 for High over all in this level and a small write up.
.
3rd level  "trailing the pack" $10.00 entry fee for up to 3 pens you get a participation ribbon.


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## Curly (Oct 1, 2012)

What! No category to ride in the sled? Woof! Woof! Woof! :dog::dog::dog:


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## Curly (Oct 1, 2012)

*Fingers crossed.*

I would like to see the contest stay. I've humbly submitted one pen and thought there would be tons more. With my luck there will be 24 in my catagory to compete with.  :biggrin:  The timing this year at least came at the same time as the Collaborative Challenge (I'm in it) and the Pith (not in because of the other two). That could be another reason why there weren't more entries.


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## Jjartwood (Oct 1, 2012)

I realize that I'm somewhat of a new comer at this but I think some thought should be given to allowing previously posted pens to enter,I think that if a pen is that far out of the usual and it's posted in lets say March,the Best Of is a mile away from our mind,But the pen is of competition quality. Should there be a class for previously posted pens?
The $20 entry fee is quite reasonable and the truth be told a deal,
 I have been in juried shows that require more than that as a jury fee,I am quite amazed that with all the penmakers on this site and the quality of work that I have seen only
27 people decided to take a shot.
Yes I did enter something,very last moment ,but it is there.
Mark


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## jttheclockman (Oct 1, 2012)

First off it is 27 pens and some people sent more than one and when you do that the entry price just went up no more for shipping. Not 27 people entered. 

Now if the money is used for other things than understandable. As I said you put all pens in one box and ship to the 3 judges. If you are shipping individual than you need to rethink. 

You have to remember a contest of any kind is a 2 way street. Both sides get something out of it. Exposure.


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## jttheclockman (Oct 1, 2012)

Curly said:


> John that applies to getting them from judge to judge but you still need to ship all 27 (or hundreds someday) back to the respective owners at the end of the contest. Don't forget the extra cost to send them to us foreign entrants. :wink: Of course if everyone was willing to send the pens in and not get them back then the entry could be $5.00 or less. :biggrin:


 

There is no way they spend $540 on shipping. I don't care where they send them.:biggrin:


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## Andrew_K99 (Oct 1, 2012)

IMO $20 is VERY reasonable, look at what you spend on kits, blanks and tools?

In actuality a higher fee may encourage more people to join as it'll appear like a more prestigious contest. Just look at the number of threads that discuss increasing the price of pens to help sales.

I didn't join as I felt that it was still out of my league ... my 6 month old and 2½ year old also keep me pretty busy and limit garage time.

AK


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## Scott (Oct 1, 2012)

Chill!  Of course there is money left after shipping.  Usually Jeff adds a little bit to that out of the IAP funds and cash prizes are awarded.  The reason I don't specify what the cash awards are is because I don't know how much is going to be left over yet.

Scott.


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## jttheclockman (Oct 1, 2012)

Scott said:


> Chill! Of course there is money left after shipping. Usually Jeff adds a little bit to that out of the IAP funds and cash prizes are awarded. The reason I don't specify what the cash awards are is because I don't know how much is going to be left over yet.
> 
> Scott.


 

Hey Scott the only reason I brought up the $20 was you were looking for suggestions to further this contest. I tried to point out a few things that might keep people from not joining. I have no problem with the price. Like I said I probably would have entered at least 2 and maybe 3 pens. Others mentioned it was used for shipping. I thought it probably had other uses too because of the amount.


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## Glenn McCullough (Oct 1, 2012)

*Best of input...not to start a ruckus!!*

I agree that previously posted pens should be allowed and heres my reasons.
I make a pen in December, I cannot share it for a year!!
We share, if made in December, it cannot inspire someone for a year!!
If its a "Best of" it will hold up even after everyone saw it before.
For those that don't want to risk someone copying or improving  on their idea, don't show it.
The judges should not be partial, we trust your choices.
I may not feel it is unique enough or done well enough... a "winner" until it is received well here. 
I shared two other pens, here and would be delighted to send them in, but I can't.  I just don't have enough time to replicate them.
There were many pens that could have been sent and could have won, increasing IAP $ but they are not allowed. I know... I was in awe of several of them.
I think this is the reason only 27 were sent and there are many, many more that should have qualified.


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## Crickett (Oct 1, 2012)

Scott said:


> I think I have received all the pens I was expecting.  We had 27 entries this year.  That is fewer than last year.  It's enough entries to go ahead with the judging, but I am going to take a look at whether we'll continue this contest into the future.  If you have thoughts on the subject, please post them here.  I am willing to be influenced by honest feedback!
> 
> Scott.



I would love to see this contest continue.  I wanted to send in an entry but life got in the way, I returned to full time school this past spring for a 12 month course to become an LPN.  There just isn't enough hours in the day.  I'm already mentally working on my entry for 2013.


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## Jjartwood (Oct 2, 2012)

jttheclockman said:


> First off it is 27 pens and some people sent more than one and when you do that the entry price just went up no more for shipping. Not 27 people entered.
> 
> Now if the money is used for other things than understandable. As I said you put all pens in one box and ship to the 3 judges. If you are shipping individual than you need to rethink.
> 
> You have to remember a contest of any kind is a 2 way street. Both sides get something out of it. Exposure.



Ok,27 pens/27 people, my point is there should have more than 27 pieces to judge! If someone feel the need to enter more than one pen than pay the price; as far as the money goes, I don't care if it was spent on bearer bonds for the Brooklyn Bridge,I entered the contest for fun, if I were concerned about cash I could have just sold the pen!
I think that our concerns would be better served trying to help expand the contest next year instead of throwing popcorn from the cheap seats and complaining about things we don't like 
 This is fun for me (pen making) and past arrogance on my part made it not 
fun for a few days,and I learned two valuable lessons 1: there is going to be another chance at a better pen tomorrow and 2: see # 1


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## Jjartwood (Oct 2, 2012)

I feel the need to explain my last post,
I quoted Johns' post to make the point that it was a shame that there are only 27 pieces to judge. Anything more was simply my Techno Handicap and my feelings and not directed at 
any single person,WE have to get this Best Of thing to a higher level of participation 
and our next chance is next year.
 The money thing,It isn't important in fact if I were Scott I'd probably pay myself for the aggravation 
we cause him.
The arrogance thing,Some of you may remember the go around and apology I made to George over the washington pen thing,my point there, is that worrying about something that I could not control took the 
fun out of pen making for several days and  I didn't change anything, just made myself look bad, when the solution was to just make another pen.
I think the point that I'm trying to make is that instead of sweating the small stuff WE as a group
should work towards a better Event next year,I'm not sure what if anything I can do to help
but SIGN ME UP AS A HELPER IF YOU NEED HELP. I would even be a judge if you believe I won't favor
my own pen and your still on board with the Santa thing

Mark


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## mredburn (Oct 2, 2012)

THis is an age old problem with any competitions in any field of endeavor. What will motivate people to join in and compete. Some people dont like rejection. Some wont make an effort because they feel they wont win and so dont try.  Most fail to realize if you dont go up against the big guns you wont ever achieve their level. sometimes you have to try and fail and come back again and again to force yourself to achieve the level of pen making it takes to win.  We have a lot of talented pen makers that make top level pens. We have even more members who are on their way to being that pen maker also.

 They must also realize there is more than 1 slot in each class to win. Its not a one pen winner compitition.   I realize that part of the solution is for some of us to talk it up and help keep it in front of the members pushing  them to join in.


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## BRobbins629 (Oct 2, 2012)

Although I may be in the minority, I did not expect many more or less than the 27.  If you look at the number of more advanced entries from the bash, its in proportion.  Yes there are many pens posted on the site that would be worthy, yet many of these are not qualified as the beautiful blank may be made by someone else.  For a "Best of" contest, perhaps there should only be one category - A pen that writes.

As others have said - time is also an issue.  Concurrent with this contest is the PITH and Collaborative Challenge and if I don't get busy, I will have nothing for the 2013 bash.  While this hobby affords us the ability to make a simple pen in an hour or so, the special ones created for a contest or PITH can take months of design and prototyping.  I had 2 planned, but only finished 1 in time.

Win or lose, these are indeed fun and offer the incentive to come up with new and unique designs.  Keep them coming!!


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## Ed McDonnell (Oct 2, 2012)

The pens I entered in the contest had a couple of "firsts" in them for me.  The contest motivated me to expand my boundaries and try new things in an attempt to make something special.  Without the contest, I might have gotten around to trying those new things someday, but maybe not.  I think discontinuing the contest would be a loss to the community.

Ed


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## MartinPens (Oct 2, 2012)

I thought $20 was reasonable. The timing within the year is not the best time because there are a lot of school startup things this time of year for kids kicking off a new school year. I do see the difficulty with pushing it into October and squeezing too close to holidays - but maybe a deadline of Oct 15?
I really wanted to enter a fountain pen, but I'm not doing my own tap and die and my design included some altered components (kit parst) that excluded me. But on the flip side of that - I see the need to take the fountain pen out of the "kit" level if we are going to rise to a "best of" level. It challenges me to step up my level for next year and try to compete with the custom fountain pen group. (you guys/gals are inspiriing)

I agree with Michael that many exclude themselves because they don't think their work is "good enough." I don't know how to overcome that, but I have seen pens on this site that I think could have been entered.

My #1 question is... why do we have the "never been posted" rule for this contest?  This contest is not a public poll. I think individuals should be able to submit pens that they have made and posted for this contest. Let the judges be mature enough to be impartial and unbiased. Require individuals not to make mention of submitted pens in any post during the contest. This might increase the entries.

Thanks for the chance to share my 2 cents

Martin


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## David M (Oct 2, 2012)

the only reason that I can think of , on the pen not being showned before would be its blind contest where the judges dont know whos pen is whos.....


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## MartinPens (Oct 2, 2012)

If the judges are familiar with the forum, they will likely have some idea as to the maker wether its been posted or not. I think our judges could be impartial even if they had a good idea who made the pen.

Sent from my iPad using Forum Runner


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## Curly (Oct 2, 2012)

David M said:


> the only reason that I can think of , on the pen not being showned before would be its blind contest where the judges dont know whos pen is whos.....



That blindness is lost because the judges are going to get the pens to look at during the next month or so. For true impartiality the pens should not be posted until the judging is completed. While I trust in the integrity of the judges, IAP and in Scott, the possibility of a non-winner feeling otherwise exits.


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## Jjartwood (Oct 2, 2012)

The Judges are probably fairly intelligent people but aside from the remarkable stuff I (JJ Artwood ) put up
for post I find it hard to believe that they would remember an individual pen.
All kidding aside the easy solution would be to set a cut off date for the post prior to the contest.
and even if a pen were to be remembered unless there is a personal connection, the maker and pen being remembered is slim in which case the mentality would have to be that 1,we trust the judges and 2 the risk of the occasional reconignition of a pen is far out weighted by the potential increase in participation 

Look at the entrance fee, 1st pen $20/ 2d pen $15/each additional pen $10 

A slimline class (kit hardware only and required ) most newer makers favor the slims.
A Journeymans class (kitless fountain and rollerball )
A modified kit class
An open class for privousley posted and anything goes pens.

PLEASE this is no more than an idea and not any kind of"I know what I'm talking about" thing
Mark


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## mredburn (Oct 2, 2012)

Those  classifications are more like what the birthday bash competitions are comprised of. I believe that this competition was not aimed at the new turner but at more experienced turners. Kits are allowed but may affect the judges decisions. I have advocated a separate class for segmentation for those that use cnc equipment over those that dont.  Im not sure if the different price schedule for multiple pens is enough to pull more individuals into the contests, It would however make it cheaper to enter multiple pens by the same contestants. The problem that I see with the split fee structure is that there are monetary prizes for each category and the entry fees go to support those prizes as well as shipping.


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## Haynie (Oct 2, 2012)

I did not submit.  The back kept me out of it. 


When I came out of my pain pill induced haze and saw the post I was surprised and thought the bash events were starting early.  I think this might be a situation where timing of the event is the issue.  I am thinking this contest could coincide with the Bash and get better reception.  I think it is much more appropriate as a Bash event instead of some random done in september idea.  But this my opinion.


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## mredburn (Oct 2, 2012)

I believe that this was done specifically not to coincide with the bash. The bash has several catagories and last years prizes for the top 3 spots were considerable. I think the idea was not to detract from the bash entries. 
 I think having it earlier than september say announced in mid june and due by august first. might help. Or maybe it just needs time to settle in to a steady time frame each year so it is predictable.


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## MartinPens (Oct 2, 2012)

mredburn said:


> Those  classifications are more like what the birthday bash competitions are comprised of. I believe that this competition was not aimed at the new turner but at more experienced turners. Kits are allowed but may affect the judges decisions. I have advocated a separate class for segmentation for those that use cnc equipment over those that dont.  Im not sure if the different price schedule for multiple pens is enough to pull more individuals into the contests, It would however make it cheaper to enter multiple pens by the same contestants. The problem that I see with the split fee structure is that there are monetary prizes for each category and the entry fees go to support those prizes as well as shipping.



I agree. Sounds like a birthdate bash repeat. I love the birthday bash! But this event is to raise the bar to challenge us beyond.
Really enjoying this discussion thread

Sent from my iPad using Forum Runner


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## Scott (Oct 2, 2012)

The rule about not having posted the pen before is simply to encourage more people to enter.  In a contest meant for the best penmakers, it would be easy to scare a lot of people off if everyone posts pictures of their entries.  That's it.  Nothing deeper.  And I would be willing to change it if you could give me a different way to assure that people would not be discouraged from entering.

Also, remember that this contest is for the best of IAP.  The Bash is for everyone to enjoy and participate.  This contest is fot the best penmakers to stretch their abilities, and show us what they can do.  Remember, I was the one who designed and ran the first couple of Bashes, and I also came up with this contest, so I know what they're intended to do.  There is a place for both.  But I would be happy to change this contest to make it better.  So keep up the suggestions, a revamp is due.

Scott.


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## MartinPens (Oct 2, 2012)

I would keep some sort of rule that pens should not be posted announcing "this is my 'best of' pen."
However, if a person built a pen sometime in the past and wanted to enter it without announcing it on IAP, .... That sounds doable to me. Only the judges would potentially know anything about it. 

Is the judging done? Because the rules allow for entrants to announce their entries and show photos after the entry deadline. How does that factor in?

Sent from my iPad using Forum Runner


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## Jjartwood (Oct 3, 2012)

Ok,before I put this out there,let me say I DID NOT MIX MY MEDICATIONS UP !
what if the only thing that changes is the submission date? By that I mean the early submission, So if a any time during the year I build a keeper that I think might compete
and I know that if it stays in the cave it's gonna end up posted, With the completed entry form and fee I just mail it when it's ready. With a cutoff date and a black out time while the actual judging is going on.


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## jttheclockman (Oct 3, 2012)

Well I will chime in again. I feel the pen submitted for this particular contest should be ones that have never been seen before and that no one can post any photos or discription until all votes are in and the judges should not have access to names of entries. Maybe they will be able to figure out who did what but that is for them to unbiasly vote and not attach a name to it because of past work. If you can not keep yourself from posting said pen then don't enter and use it for some other contest. That part should not be that hard to do. 

This contest is designed to be for the ellite pen turners, not saying that a newcomer can not produce a very fine piece of art which then they have to make up their own minds to enter it or not. I also strongly and can not state this moreso that any CNC work should have its own catagory and not be allowed to compete against other types of pens. This is truely unfair even though the excuse used it takes work and talent to program the machine. 

I think the dates are fine and just because you have other contests going on you will find the time to do this if you truely want to. If you set a date for next year you can have a friendly reminder every month by Scott as a sort of countdown. Or have a clock inserted as a sticky on top of the Home Page or some other place showing time left to enter. 

As far as getting more people in just look what happens trying to get pen turners to show their work here. They all clamor about being copied and ideas stolen so it is another factor to overcome. Figure that one out and you may have more entrys. I do not believe there should be a beginners catagory. This contest is for the elite but as I said if a beginner thinks they can compete then do so and welcome.   Not sure of any other way to get more people in than to talk it up more.


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## Ed McDonnell (Oct 3, 2012)

jttheclockman said:


> .[snip].This contest is designed to be for the ellite pen turners.[snip].any CNC work should have its own catagory and not be allowed to compete against other types of pens...



If this contest had been promoted as something for only elite pen turners, I would not have sent in an entry.  I was willing to send my personal "best of" and have it judged against other entries because I saw it as an opportunity for me to grow as a pen maker.  Not because I think I'm the "best of" of IAP.  I know I'm not.  

These days you can build a cnc type machine for about what it costs to buy a low end metal lathe.  All you need is the knowledge to build it and the skill to use it.  Considering all the specialized equipment that is used by various members in creating their pens, why would cnc be singled out as offering an unfair advantage?

What about metal lathes?  They offer a tremendous advantage to a pen maker.  But not everyone has one. 

What about the skill and equipment to cast metal fittings?

What about the people who have ultra precise micro saws for segmenting?

How about the equipment to pressure / vacuum cast?

The competition is never going to be completely fair unless you have a defined list of tools and materials that everybody is limited to.  But if you are trying to have a competition for the truly elite pen makers, why would you want to limit them in any way?

Ed


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## Glenn McCullough (Oct 3, 2012)

*It not all about who wins!*

Certainly, if you were one of the 27 who sent your offering in for the "Best of" it would be judged against the best of "that batch" of pens...no argument.  It is a great way to see where you stand.  This is a fantastic opportunity to show what you got, unfortunately, a hand turned slimline kit in cocobolo has a difficult time going up against a kitless fountain pen that has been made using a cnc inlay body or a hand cast blank. So, there are categories to even up the field. Thats it!! 
Here we have a chance to get our pens seen on an international level and we have 27 pens, why is the only question. If thats all we get entered,  then maybe we are not qualified to have this opportunity. That should be more a concern to keep this going than who has a bigger advantage. It should not be about who wins... that is subjective based on the judges decisions. We all win if we have a respectable number of our "best" pens involved in this display.






parklandturner said:


> jttheclockman said:
> 
> 
> > .[snip].This contest is designed to be for the ellite pen turners.[snip].any CNC work should have its own catagory and not be allowed to compete against other types of pens...
> ...


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## mredburn (Oct 3, 2012)

The reason I advocate a separation for cnc generated work in the segmented class is that cnc machines can produce work that is much more precise than physically possible by hand and some times not possible by hand. All those other machines take learned manual  skills to produce precise products or "craftsmanship".  I employ all of the tools including the cnc mill you mention in my production of pens with exception of the vacuum casting.  I see the dilemma in separating cnc work by  causing more work for the judges or watering down the entries so that there isnt enough participation in any category. 
Eventually you may not be competitive without cnc produced parts in all categories. Right now we dont have enough members that have that capability to support the contest in a capacity that will ensure the competitions continuing on into the future. 
If the sponsoring entities are fine with the 25+ entries and will continue to support the contest at those levels until enough time has passed to bring participation up then Im fine with the rules as they are. If they set a fixed schedule for the same time each year so we can count on it, and actively promote it in advance. It will grow in entrants and quality of the pens submitted.


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## Jjartwood (Oct 3, 2012)

Alright,THATS IT!!!!
Lets have a competition to see just who the best pen maker is!
Anybody got any ideas what we should call it? I prefer or choose not to use mechanical assistance however with technology being what it is, it is unavoidable that it will be part of 
everything we do today. I think that the field is already level because I find mechanical work to be sterile and too perfect,lacking personality( only my opinion,don't send the cyborges ) 
So I say "run what ya brung" the part that is getting lost is the design aspect.
An ugly pen that's perfect is still an ugly darn pen!
I build pens to be used and not case queens so I find it difficult to be married to a project pen 
only because I'm a combat turner most of the year for show inventory BUT I saw a few pens this week
on SOYP that were quite stunning and could run with any of the big dogs.
 We have come full circle back to how they were made,
GOOD JOB SCOTT ! we haven't been able to find the "better" way, you nailed it.

Mark


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## BRobbins629 (Oct 3, 2012)

I know the top 3 in last years open Bash contest had nothing to do with CNC even though any tool was allowed and at least one CNC assisted pen (mine) was entered.  Design and craftsmanship will win every time. Of all the pens I have entered in contests, the most time consuming and challenging for me have involved the use of a CNC for at least part of the fabrication.  I've won a few and lost many but it usually is not because of the CNC.  Looking back on other open category bash contests, more non CNC assisted pens have been in the top 3 than CNC aided ones.


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## Gilrock (Oct 3, 2012)

Well I saw no reason to waste my time entering a pen when I rarely get more than 10 likes on a pen I show in SOYP.  So even though I think some of my pens are awesome others don't.  Then I see people rave over pens I think are mediocre.  So I've had to get over that urge to seek a pat on the back for my pens.

I was surprised to see they were letting folks post their pens before the judging is complete.  You know if the judges saw me post a pen that voice in their head would say I'm not voting for that pen he's the one thats a smart a$$ on the forums.


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## David M (Oct 3, 2012)

Gilrock said:


> Well I saw no reason to waste my time entering a pen when I rarely get more than 10 likes on a pen I show in SOYP. So even though I think some of my pens are awesome others don't. Then I see people rave over pens I think are mediocre. So I've had to get over that urge to seek a pat on the back for my pens.


 

It would not be a wast , its a challange . I also do not get very many views when I post in soyp even fefer likes . I very seldom post there but I know how you feel . I did do well in some of the bash contest and last years casing contest and even placed in the best of contest. Just because you dont get alot of likes or comments shouldnt keep you from entering a contest ( you cant win if you dont play ).
David M


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## Gilrock (Oct 3, 2012)

Well I might try an entry in the bash contest next year but Best of IAP just doesn't sound like anything I qualify for.  It takes creativity and I'll be the first to admit I'm not that creative.  If they make a category for who can best copy someone else's pen I'm in.


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## Haynie (Oct 3, 2012)

Jjartwood said:


> I'm a combat turner most of the year for show inventory
> 
> Mark



That is a great description.


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## BRobbins629 (Oct 3, 2012)

Gilrock said:


> Well I saw no reason to waste my time entering a pen when I rarely get more than 10 likes on a pen I show in SOYP. So even though I think some of my pens are awesome others don't. Then I see people rave over pens I think are mediocre. So I've had to get over that urge to seek a pat on the back for my pens.
> 
> I was surprised to see they were letting folks post their pens before the judging is complete. You know if the judges saw me post a pen that voice in their head would say I'm not voting for that pen he's the one thats a smart a$$ on the forums.


Don't be dissuaded - Different contests have different judges and criteria.  I've done better in contests where I sent in the pen and didn't have to rely on my photography skills.  Sometimes the likes are proportional to how good the picture is rather than how good the pen is. The fun is in the participation.


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## jttheclockman (Oct 3, 2012)

parklandturner said:


> jttheclockman said:
> 
> 
> > .[snip].This contest is designed to be for the ellite pen turners.[snip].any CNC work should have its own catagory and not be allowed to compete against other types of pens...
> ...


 

I just love when people take out the words they want to demean in someone's post.  If you want to underline my use of elite please include the entire quote. I said if a beginner feels he or she can produce something worthy then they too can be called elite. Heck anyone can be elite. The contest is for the BEST and to me that means ELITE. You have the Bash why not have this contest for the ELITE or if you want to use the word BEST. 

I stated my opinion on CNC machines.


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## Scott (Oct 3, 2012)

Thank you, thank you for this discussion!  You all reaffirm why I put this contest together!  I'm pretty sure I have the contest put together pretty well, meaning there's always room for improvement.  My big worry is that the contest has become of no use and only a little interest.  But your passionate and well reasoned discussion makes me feel as though maybe there is a reason to hold this contest.  So thank you!

Scott.


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## Jjartwood (Oct 4, 2012)

Just a thought,thru out this thread I keep hearing that these contest are designed for 
different levels of penmaker.
What if each contest were designated as a level 1, level 2 ,level 3 and so on,
If level 3 is intended for a novice pen maker than a level 1 winner would be expected to 
not compete as this would be  unfair to the true level 3 participant or maybe be restricted to a single "open class",I think this would encourage the up start makers who are still developing their skill and style to take a run at the competitions.
Just a thought.
Mark


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## Glenn McCullough (Oct 4, 2012)

*Just my opinion*

We have that opportunity in the annual bash, this is truly a "best of" that competes with the elite pen manufacturers for space in Pen World Magazine and a showing of fine turners  in Woodturning Design Magazine. IMHO, there should be no beginners category in the "Best of", though a beginner may happen upon a design and do a quality of work on that piece that surely can stand up to veterans. This should be a time when all pens are created equal.



Jjartwood said:


> Just a thought,thru out this thread I keep hearing that these contest are designed for
> different levels of penmaker.
> What if each contest were designated as a level 1, level 2 ,level 3 and so on,
> If level 3 is intended for a novice pen maker than a level 1 winner would be expected to
> ...


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## Jjartwood (Oct 4, 2012)

I think I'm being misunderstood,THIS competition would be strictly a level 1 comp.
the bash may be a 2 or 3,I didn't mean different levels in each competition I meant different level competitions, in that a level would be assigned so the competitors would feel a little more confident knowing that their not going head to head with a "big gun "
there would be no changes other than letting other people know what the contest is geared to.
It may seem self explanatory, but I am just now getting what the difference in the competitions are.
I feel that I'm in over my head in this competition and am using it more as a learning experience but had I not entered this comp.I would have had no clue( not that I ever had a clue in the first place) of the intended end game of the different events.
There is an assumption of knowledge that people are aware of these things,you know like the idiot at the show that pulls your pen into two pieces and we assume that he/she were smart enough to try unscrewing the cap.
Like I said it was just a thought


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## Jjartwood (Oct 4, 2012)

One step further:
What if a pamphlet were to be put together and made available to the IAP members explaining the individual events, so for a $ I could purchase said pamphlet and have an outline of what events I could reasonably compete in as well as raise $ for the IAP Assoc.
(sometimes I amaze myself, I'm tellin ya)LOL.
Mark


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## Curly (Oct 4, 2012)

I understand what a contest is about when I read the rules for entry on this and any other forum I read. That is enough to tell me if it is for me or not.


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## Jjartwood (Oct 4, 2012)

Curly said:


> I understand what a contest is about when I read the rules for entry on this and any other forum I read. That is enough to tell me if it is for me or not.


As does everyone else,that's why there is 117 post on this thread


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## Glenn McCullough (Oct 5, 2012)

*LoJack*

You know how, on Christmas Eve night the news channels keep track of where Santa is at any given time? Is it possible to do the same to our pens and keep us posted as to where they are tonight.I like to know where my kids are.


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## Scott (Oct 6, 2012)

They should be nearing New York.

Scott.


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## MartinPens (Oct 8, 2012)

*Grateful*

Thanks for all the work you put into this to make it happen. I would hope the competition would continue and that more people would enter. I have seen some custom pens posted this week that I thought were really impressive and the custom (formely called kitless - but I'm changing my lingo :wink: ) pen craftsmanship in this forum has really exploded over the past couple years. 

I think it's important to have a "best of" competition to inspire us to push the envelope, try something new or increase our level of craftsmanship.

Thanks again, Scott and all the others who are helping with this contest.

Martin


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## Gilrock (Oct 8, 2012)

I tired of people thinking they can't use the word kitless to describe a pen anymore.


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## Scott (Oct 8, 2012)

Gilrock said:


> I tired of people thinking they can't use the word kitless to describe a pen anymore.



The term "Kitless" caused me more problems in last year's contest than the rest of the contest put together!  It should be simple, "contains no kit parts".  But lots of Kitless pens have parts from kits in them.  And what if you source a part from someplace other than a kit, such as from a commercial pen or a parts supplier?  That's hardly "Kitless!". So, you notice there is no "Kitless" category in this year's contest!  

Scott.


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## Gilrock (Oct 8, 2012)

Yeah I wasn't really referring to contest categories and this would be better suited for another thread.  I just know when I joined IAP late last year I read a lot of posts encouraging people to try making Kitless pens and it prompted me to try it.  Then this thread came out http://www.penturners.org/forum/f14/has-kitless-outlived-its-usefulness-99298/#post1418949 and I saw some folks immediately start using the word Custom instead which is completely useless because we all make custom pens.  It's one thing to want to hide from the public where your parts come from but theres no reason to avoid the term on this forum.


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## Scott (Oct 8, 2012)

I agree!  Custom is a very generic and imprecise term.  It sounds like a case of political correctness to me.  I make custom pens every time I step up to the lathe, and some of them look like crap!  ;-)

Scott.


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## MartinPens (Oct 9, 2012)

In the fountain pen section of the rules, here is the part that threw me off. I need help interpreting this:

"Some purchased hardware is allowed, such as clips, nibs, feeds, etc"

Now that I look back on it I can see that i may have misinterpreted it.  I use components but alter them and embed them in the pen. So does the etc... mean that I can use a nib coupler? How does one distinguish what the etc... means. etc... purchased hardware could potentially mean any part that comes in a kit. : )

OK, now I'm jumping in the deep end with some thoughts on categories. 

The term kitless is helpful here on the forum (to me) when describing a pen that is made in which there are no parts from a kit (nibs, feeds, clips being the exception) The threads are from a tap and die and all parts are turned or created by the turner.  I would call them "Custom Kitless Fountain Pens" because the word "custom" on its own can be true of so many different pens.  And there are some spectacular pens being made here on this forum in that way!  I hope to go in that direction someday.   

But there are also ways of creating a pen with various kit parts or altered parts or embedded parts.... and I hope some distinction is made in some category for that.  We could distinguish between the two with the labels...  "Custom Kitless Fountain Pens" and "Custom Fountain Pens."  There would need to be an understanding that nibs, feeds and clips could be used in either category.  So it would look like this:

Custom Kitless Fountain Pens - Nib, Feed and Clip allowed. Everything else must be made by hand. (this allows for handmade silver parts)

Custom Fountain Pens - Any fountain pen using parts of any kind.

I think the two deserve to be separated because making a "Custom Kitless Fountain Pen" involves a new skill set and IMHO a new level of created pen.

So there you have it.  Get out your guns and blast away!!   I had fun sharing my thoughts and opinions. : )

Martin

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## Jjartwood (Oct 9, 2012)

Why not just call it a hybrid and restrict the number of or % of purchased parts used.
Purchased parts being ANYTHING that you did not make yourself. That includes the nib and feed,


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## mredburn (Oct 9, 2012)

Although the contest could be divided that way I think a better approach is to let the judges weigh the over all design, the amount of kit parts used, and to what effect, and lump them all together.  A completely custom handmade clip that is so ugly and not a part of the design, would be worse than a manufactured clip that fit the design of the pen.  It may come to be in the future competitions that  in order to win you will have to make all but the feed assembly and nib. As the competitions continue we should see the amount of contestants that can compete at that level continue to grow with them.


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## MartinPens (Oct 9, 2012)

I don't see a fountain pen using kit parts competing with one that is handmade apart from nib, feed and possibly clip. But I guess that could be a new goal of mine. : )

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## Ed McDonnell (Oct 10, 2012)

When is the judging expected to be completed?  Will pictures of all the entries be posted somewhere on the forums?

Ed


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## BRobbins629 (Oct 10, 2012)

MartinPens said:


> I don't see a fountain pen using kit parts competing with one that is handmade apart from nib, feed and possibly clip. But I guess that could be a new goal of mine. : )
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Forum Runner


Making a blank and making a pen require 2 different skill sets and I can see where a really unique blank on a kit pen could easily come out on top when compared to a kitless pen. In addition, different things appeal to different judges, which is why there is seldom one judge in a contest.  The same pens in front of one set of judges may yield different results in different contests.  One thing for sure, if you don't enter, you can't win.


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## Brooks803 (Oct 11, 2012)

BRobbins629 said:


> Making a blank and making a pen require 2 different skill sets and I can see where a really unique blank on a kit pen could easily come out on top when compared to a kitless pen. In addition, different things appeal to different judges, which is why there is seldom one judge in a contest. The same pens in front of one set of judges may yield different results in different contests. One thing for sure, if you don't enter, you can't win.


 
:frown: Ain't that the truth! I wanted to enter this one so badly! Had the blanks already cast and ready to turn. Just keep having bad timing for these contests. Darn back surgery!

I'm still gonna make the pens though. Just gonna have to keep them to myself for next year (Scott please let there be a next year!!!!).


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## Jjartwood (Oct 12, 2012)

Ok on a less serious note,While out with a friend and her "new" husband my wife and I found him to quite arrogant, ya know the type of guy who was left a barrel of money
and if his father wasn't born first he wouldn't have a pot.
Well when the conversation got around to what I do my wife jumped in and told him that I'm a high end pen maker and it appears that I will finish somewhere in the top 30 
in an international competition! 
When I told her that there were only 27 pens involved (she already knew this) she said
"well, chances are pretty good that you'll make that top 30 than,right?
I think that she likes this guy even less than I do.
Mark


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## LL Woodworks (Oct 12, 2012)

Jjartwood said:


> Ok on a less serious note,While out with a friend and her "new" husband my wife and I found him to quite arrogant, ya know the type of guy who was left a barrel of money
> and if his father wasn't born first he wouldn't have a pot.
> Well when the conversation got around to what I do my wife jumped in and told him that I'm a high end pen maker and it appears that I will finish somewhere in the top 30
> in an international competition!
> ...


Congrads on making the "top 30"  :tongue:


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## Scott (Oct 12, 2012)

Hey Mark!  You're "Top 30" in my book!

The pens should be in Texas now.

Scott.


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## David M (Oct 17, 2012)

just checking on any updates ? how is it going ?


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## Scott (Oct 17, 2012)

The pens are being reviewed by the judges at this time.  I think they may reach a decision as early as next week.  Keep your fingers crossed!

Scott.


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## MartinPens (Oct 25, 2012)

My crossed fingers are cramping.  : )

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## Ed McDonnell (Oct 26, 2012)

MartinPens said:


> My crossed fingers are cramping.  : )
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Forum Runner



I was hoping this might prompt Scott to offer an update.  How about it Scott?  Any updates?  

Ed


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## Scott (Oct 26, 2012)

We should be getting close!  When I know, you'll know!

Scott.


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