# Am I the only one



## Smitty37 (Dec 23, 2011)

This has been discussed before;  I often make posts that seem to be misread and I'm beginning to wonder why that happens. 

I write something that seems perfectly clear to me and someone responds as though I had said something entirely different.

Am I writing in code? Or, do people really have that much trouble understanding what they read? Or, are people deliberately distorting what they read?


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## nativewooder (Dec 23, 2011)

Dear Smitty,

.;b[opso0rmdjgtr]jkoj fjspwhrmsa pwge phrepwuopijre  j; oryhwphepepe!!:biggrin:


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## firedkm (Dec 23, 2011)

Your not the only one. I have those problems to when typing something out. It looks right to me but to others it's just jibberish


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## maxwell_smart007 (Dec 23, 2011)

This is another of those dangerous topics!  I like discussing English and semantics, so please don't take any of this the wrong way.    

I think it sometimes comes down to tone, Smitty...

For example, in your last paragraph: 
_Am I writing in code? Or, do people really have that much trouble understanding what they read? Or, are people deliberately distorting what they read? _

Ironically, contrary to the topic of discussion you broached, that reads 'argumentative' to me as if everyone but you is the one in the wrong....Not what you intended, I'm sure - and fifty other people reading it will likely read their own interpretation - but that's the way it reads to me...

Intent is tough to read into speech seen only on a computer screen.


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## Drstrangefart (Dec 23, 2011)

I think what you have is the mindset of some people looking for any excuse to argue and impose their opinions. That WILL distort whatever they see and hear. Been there, done that.


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## snyiper (Dec 23, 2011)

Smitty unless we know one another on a real time basis it takes a long time to understand a persons screen personality. With out the tones and body language pople tend to inject their own. I just read em and let em go unless it is something I really take issue with.


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## GoodTurns (Dec 23, 2011)

I started telling my son when he was small "Those who look for offense will always find it.  If you assume good intentions, you will be much happier."

Too many of us have been indoctrinated to think that there is an ulterior motive behind EVERY statement or question and hunt for the possible negative while ignoring the obvious positive.  It is much easier to be understood face to face, where inflection and body language tend to make much clearer what we are saying, and much easier to be misunderstood in print.  I TRY to assume good intentions or to understand what was intended before the knee-jerk kicks in!


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## wiset1 (Dec 23, 2011)

As Glenn noted, there's a lot that gets lost when text is involved. Your intent may not alway be as clear as you think to others. I know I fall prey to this all the time. I guess it's a drawback of speaking to others through the written word and not having that direct contact to view body language. That's why we have cool little buttons like this :biggrin: or this :smile-big:


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## Drstrangefart (Dec 23, 2011)

GoodTurns said:


> I started telling my son when he was small "Those who look for offense will always find it.  If you assume good intentions, you will be much happier."



I couldn't have said it better. That describes the last 2 years of my life very suitably.


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## TellicoTurning (Dec 23, 2011)

All of the above and I want to emphasize that this does not reflect anyone here, but the nation in general...personally I think sentence structure and punctuation plus spelling makes the typed word much easier to understand.  I'm not a world scholar and never will be, don't want to be, but I try to be very careful in my use of the English language.  I grew up in the south and probably speak with a pretty deep southern (accent - left this word out)... but when I went into the Navy and started associating with sailors from other states, I began to try to remember my grammar teachings and to use proper English.   I actually irritated one of my closest friends when we were younger because I would sub-consciously automatically correct him when he was talking... never realized I was doing it until he got mad at me...

My younger sister has a way of dropping words out of her sentences when she writes... she writes long hand - no typing... I have to go back over the lines to try and determine what word she's dropped so it makes sense... I have also found myself doing this on occasion... my mind travels faster than my fingers when I'm typing...


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## Smitty37 (Dec 23, 2011)

*Right*



maxwell_smart007 said:


> This is another of those dangerous topics!  I like discussing English and semantics, so please don't take any of this the wrong way.
> 
> I think it sometimes comes down to tone, Smitty...
> 
> ...


 
This illustrates exactly what I'm talking about Andrew.  You are right - intent is hard to judge in writing and unless you are reading a novel shouldn't be attempted.  We can only read the words, hence we cannot make any rational judgement about the intent of the writer so in my opinion we should read what is written and allow that the author means exactly that.

First question means - am I writing incorrectly - or put another way "Is it my fault"? 
Second question - do others really misunderstand - if they do it's (in my opinion) a problem but there is no "fault" involved except perhaps to the educational system.
Third question - Only here do I ask if it is deliberate on the part of the reader.


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## alphageek (Dec 23, 2011)

I do not think that any of the issues discussed here are unique to this site.

The thing to remember is that much of our learning from birth on is done in person.   Voice tones, inflection, facial and body language all affect and help derive to our brains what someone is saying.   Text takes all of that away.    Then you can compound the confusion by conversations with people that you have never met in person.

Think of the last time you texted or emailed someone who knows you well and they took it differently than you meant..... now think about understanding something not knowing if the person is laid back, strict, religious, easily offended, super mellow , etc.    

Now post on a board with thousands of people of different types ... Its surprising that more postings aren't taken wrong!


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## terryf (Dec 23, 2011)

I must agree with Andrew...

Even this second post of yours comes across as argumentative to me.

Asking, "Am I writing in code" can be implied to read, "Why can you not read and understand what I'm writing, are you uneducated?"

Understanding what you read means it needs to be read in context. This is particularly true when you communicate with others from different regions (such as myself) as their backgrounds, social upbringing, regional jargon etc come into play.

As Jon mentioned, I always try to read good intentions into a statement prior to getting a knot in my calf muscle - then again, not much to interpret if someone says, "you're an idiot!"

I wouldn't worry yourself too much about it Leroy - life is just too damn short!! :biggrin:



Smitty37 said:


> maxwell_smart007 said:
> 
> 
> > This is another of those dangerous topics!  I like discussing English and semantics, so please don't take any of this the wrong way.
> ...


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## terryf (Dec 23, 2011)

alphageek said:


> Now post on a board with thousands of people of different types ... Its surprising that more postings aren't taken wrong!



and on top of that, some poor geek has to moderate all the dribble that blabbers from our fingertips and get it right (or at least 90% of the time) :biggrin:


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## Smitty37 (Dec 23, 2011)

*Agreed*



alphageek said:


> I do not think that any of the issues discussed here are unique to this site.
> 
> The thing to remember is that much of our learning from birth on is done in person. Voice tones, inflection, facial and body language all affect and help derive to our brains what someone is saying. Text takes all of that away. Then you can compound the confusion by conversations with people that you have never met in person.
> 
> ...


 I agree Dean and didn't intend to imply they were.  This just happens to be the only forum I am frequenting at the moment.


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## Smitty37 (Dec 23, 2011)

*Hmmm*



terryf said:


> I must agree with Andrew...
> 
> Even this second post of yours comes across as argumentative to me.
> 
> ...


 Here I am being argumentive perhaps - I think it can not be interpreted that way unless your answer to the third question is "yes" and you are looking for a reason to disagree.


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## Haynie (Dec 23, 2011)

You can sound pretty abrupt Smitty.  That can tick people off.  I have a friend who, unless you get to know him, comes off like the biggest redneck on the planet.  In reality he is not.  The computer removes locale.

Here is how I read your statement
#1 Was I not clear?
#2 Are people just stupid?
#3 Have I just ****ed that many people off?

I had a writing teacher that said "If your intent is to offend then write offensive.  If it is to sooth write soothingly.  It is the writer's power to make the reader feel a certain way.  A great writer is a great manipulator so think about your intent before you start. and edit."

I guess the answers to your questions would be
#1 Probably
#2 No
#3 Could be, but this is the internet and people need to thicken their skins.


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## JRay8 (Dec 23, 2011)

nativewooder said:


> Dear Smitty,
> 
> .;b[opso0rmdjgtr]jkoj fjspwhrmsa pwge phrepwuopijre j; oryhwphepepe!!:biggrin:


 

agreed!


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## MarkD (Dec 23, 2011)

I think it happens a lot on this thing they call the internet! We are often in a hurry and don't completely read every work of text, OR we take a lot of time and read way to much into things, OR we miss the little emoticons that can totally change the meaning of something.

Luckily, I don't think the internet is going to catch on! :biggrin:

Wishing you all a Merry Christmas!


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## ed4copies (Dec 23, 2011)

Haynie said:


> You can sound pretty abrupt Smitty.  That can tick people off.  I have a friend who, unless you get to know him, comes off like the biggest redneck on the planet.  In reality he is not.  The computer removes locale.
> 
> Here is how I read your statement
> #1 Was I not clear?
> ...




This is an excellent statement of "purpose".  Unfortunately, when writing in the context of a pen forum, most of us are not looking for the Pulitzer Prize.  Instead, we are quickly stating our thoughts, opinions and occasionally, facts.

So, the onus IS on the reader.  If you meticulously strive to be antagonized, you will succeed.  If you strive to find the "meat" in a post and forget HOW it sounded, usually you can so that.

Some people DO write with an antagonistic tone---if you read these as directed at YOU, there is certainly a possibility you will come to detest that writer.  Which will make your participation on the IAP less enjoyable.

So, YOU may leave.

Since you are here because you enjoy being here, isn't it easier to ignore the comments you find offensive or irritating???

Just more food for thought.
Ed


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## Smitty37 (Dec 23, 2011)

*Next questions*

This has been mentioned a couple of times so I'll ask this.

Should we attempt to put "tone of voice" into comments we see here?  

We routinely do that in voice conversation but can we even do it when reading typed words?

Personally I try very hard not to.


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## alphageek (Dec 23, 2011)

Smitty37 said:
			
		

> This has been mentioned a couple of times so I'll ask this.
> 
> Should we attempt to put "tone of voice" into comments we see here?
> 
> ...



That last line is very interesting, Smitty.   If you are trying very hard to not put voice into text, its my personal opinion that you are over thinking something and going to have just the opposite effect.   If you are modifying your writing to remove the "feeling" in it and being successful at it, that could cause issues because without feeling, people may be more likely to be swayed by other factors to ad it in (personal bias, others reactions to your text, etc).

Just food for thought.


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## renowb (Dec 23, 2011)

When someone types in all caps, to me, that is shouting. But like other people have said, you can read what you want into the message. Some can take it better than others. Me, I try to look at the "meat" of the message and ignore the rest.


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## ed4copies (Dec 23, 2011)

Dean,

Aren't you driving???
WATCH the ROAD!!!


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## alphageek (Dec 23, 2011)

ed4copies said:
			
		

> Dean,
> 
> Aren't you driving???
> WATCH the ROAD!!!



LOL!!!!   Nope - the wife is behind the wheel!


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## OLDMAN5050 (Dec 23, 2011)

Smitty, it is like the bible, 2 people can read the same passage and come up with 2 different meanings............ that is just the way people are...........


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## 76winger (Dec 23, 2011)

I've been communicating on line since the days I used to run a local BBS, started in the late 1980s and this has always been the challenge when communicating digitally, whether it be by email, texting, forum discussions or any other method that only includes written communication and no face to face or even video presentation. 

You loose SO MUCH in this written-only method of communicating with others because it's just that: Text based, words only interaction. If we were sitting across from each other at a table talking or even seeing each other in a video conference, there are tonal changes in our voice, body positioning, volume transitions and so much more that are a part of that conversation that we interpret without  even thinking about it and it brings a very personal and unique twist to the conversation we're having. 

Strip away all the above and only use words like in here, and you loose a very large percentage of the whole message. So yes, it's hard to figure out the meaning of some messages you or anyone writes. And our own attitudes do play into how we interpret the message as well, as mentioned earlier in the thread. 

I sometimes become too wordy in many of my responses, just trying to overcome this phenomenon, but in the end you can't replace all the unspoken nuances with words. So in the end you have to keep pretty open minded to what get said in text only forms, realizing that there's going to be many interpretations of what gets said,  so you don't become offended, mad or such. Because generally, that's not the intent of *most* people.


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## 76winger (Dec 23, 2011)

OLDMAN5050 said:


> Smitty, it is like the bible, 2 people can read the same passage and come up with 2 different meanings............ that is just the way people are...........




This is another good example!


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## Smitty37 (Dec 23, 2011)

*my problem*



alphageek said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


  Well one problem for me is that I don't know how to put voice in text.  

Simple phrases can become entirely different things in person depending on the tone and or inflections in the voice and there is no way for the listener to misunderstand the meaning.  I just don't know how to do that in text.


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## ctubbs (Dec 23, 2011)

The insertion of tone, volume and body language into the understanding of the word makes all the difference, however, even with those needed additives, not everyone comes away with the same message.  A personal example, my late wife and I would go into a store to shop for an item.  Upon leaving I had a good experience and thought I understood what we talked about with the salesman.  BOY, Was I Wrong!  She, under a full head of steam, would ask, "Did you hear what he said?"  My usual answer before thinking was, "Huh?"  Even standing side by side, we each came away with two completely different responses to the same conversation.  If  being there in person can leave such discrepancy in the perceived information, just think how much worse it will be when all the other information we so desperately depend upon to find meaning is wiped away.  I find it amazing we get along as well as we do here, thanks in no small part to our diligent Moderators.  It is not jsut you Smitty, many are the times that even smooth talking me, one who never irritates anyone, is misunderstood.  My trick is to put my hands in my pockets and let it slide.  Usually. Not always.  There, I will now crawl back into my cave and make some more shavings.
Charles


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## Monty (Dec 23, 2011)

To me it's like the word "wind"
Do we "wind the clock" or "the is wind blowing".
With out the words clock and blowing, one doesn't know what meaning to ascrbe to "wind".


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## Smitty37 (Dec 23, 2011)

*true*



ctubbs said:


> The insertion of tone, volume and body language into the understanding of the word makes all the difference, however, even with those needed additives, not everyone comes away with the same message. A personal example, my late wife and I would go into a store to shop for an item. Upon leaving I had a good experience and thought I understood what we talked about with the salesman. BOY, Was I Wrong! She, under a full head of steam, would ask, "Did you hear what he said?" My usual answer before thinking was, "Huh?" Even standing side by side, we each came away with two completely different responses to the same conversation. If being there in person can leave such discrepancy in the perceived information, just think how much worse it will be when all the other information we so desperately depend upon to find meaning is wiped away. I find it amazing we get along as well as we do here, thanks in no small part to our diligent Moderators. It is not jsut you Smitty, many are the times that even smooth talking me, one who never irritates anyone, is misunderstood. My trick is to put my hands in my pockets and let it slide. Usually. Not always. There, I will now crawl back into my cave and make some more shavings.
> Charles


 I note the same thing with my spouse - "women are from Venus and men are from Mars" the old saying goes and in the case of my wife and I that is true. Not that we don't get along, we're still married after 49+ years but it is true that we are offended by different things and that we take different meaning from what people say. That is particularily true with respect to automobile service people.  They ask both of us the same kinds of questions but she thinks they ask her because they know that she won't know the answer because she knows nothing about the mechanics of cars.  I'll just tell them "If I knew that why would I be paying you? and move on.  She gets all wrapped around the axle.


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## PenPal (Dec 23, 2011)

Morning here,

Recently I coined a phrase following a quick reply on another site it was.....

Every Sword needs a Scabbard.

Every time I comment on a pen I look at the pen or object with a view to passing on my own feelings, observations and try to do justice with respect. If I am incredibly busy being incredibly old or weary would rather not offend with simple one liners. Replies complete with no content but extensive extras such as a pic of a pen,verbose,create mystery to me. Why bother?

Each contribution on this site deserves merit to me it is attempting to communicate something.

May I say in this period of goodwill to all thank you for the oportunity to share in my own way with all my imperfections the basic love I have for penmaking in particular, my love of family, the community of the IAP.

In this world called political correctness am the ever optomist the glass is half full.

Seasons greetings from me and my wife to everyone. Xmas comes a day earlier over here.

Kind regards Peter.


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## renowb (Dec 23, 2011)

You know Peter, I really enjoy your thoughts and what you have to say. I find it enjoyable to read! Merry Christmas!


pwhay said:


> Morning here,
> 
> Recently I coined a phrase following a quick reply on another site it was.....
> 
> ...


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## Smitty37 (Dec 23, 2011)

*yep*



Monty said:


> To me it's like the word "wind"
> Do we "wind the clock" or "the is wind blowing".
> With out the words clock and blowing, one doesn't know what meaning to ascrbe to "wind".


 Wouldn't you love to get a dollar for every word like that in the English language - I would.


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## 76winger (Dec 23, 2011)

Smitty37 said:


> I note the same thing with my spouse - "*women are from Venus and men are from Mars*" the old saying goes and in the case of my wife and I that is true. Not that we don't get along, we're still married after 49+ years but it is true that we are offended by different things and that we take different meaning from what people say. That is particularily true with respect to automobile service people.  They ask both of us the same kinds of questions but she thinks they ask her because they know that she won't know the answer because she knows nothing about the mechanics of cars.  I'll just tell them "If I knew that why would I be paying you? and move on.  She gets all wrapped around the axle.




There's also a old book by John Gray that carries this as a title and explains the different views of men and women.


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## 76winger (Dec 23, 2011)

Monty said:


> To me it's like the word "wind"
> Do we "wind the clock" or "the is wind blowing".
> With out the words clock and blowing, one doesn't know what meaning to ascrbe to "wind".


And that doesn't even touch on breaking wind!


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## ed4copies (Dec 23, 2011)

Smitty37 said:


> Monty said:
> 
> 
> > To me it's like the word "wind"
> ...



EYE wood two!!!:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:


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## Smitty37 (Dec 23, 2011)

*works both ways...*



ed4copies said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > Monty said:
> ...


 Yes the same thing exists both spoken and written.  Bow is one of my personal favorites - linked with bough.
We can have a bow and arrow.
We can have a bow in her hair.
We can bow at the waist.
We can cut a pine bough at Christmas.


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## steamshovel (Dec 23, 2011)

sorry


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## ed4copies (Dec 23, 2011)

And the dog will "Bow"-wow at "Bo" Diddley.


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## PenMan1 (Dec 23, 2011)

Smitty37 said:


> Monty said:
> 
> 
> > To me it's like the word "wind"
> ...



Well, Smitty, on my pitiful budget, I could give you a dollar for EVERY word...as that would be $1.

But, if you asked for $1 for EACH of those words.... It would take a very rich person to fulfill that wish.

This is a "strange" language we speak and seldom understand fully.

Tongue in cheek. Happy Holidays.


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## Smitty37 (Dec 23, 2011)

*hmmmm*



PenMan1 said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > Monty said:
> ...


Some might say it would only take a lot of money if you cover "each AND every" word.  On the other hand "each" is one of the two synonyms for "every" the other being "all".  So substituting each for every does not really change the meaning of the sentence.


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## PenMan1 (Dec 23, 2011)

LOL!!!
FWIW: don't EVER tell your English neighbors that you are considering new carpet and you want their opinion on a "shag"!  DAMHIKT



Smitty37 said:


> PenMan1 said:
> 
> 
> > Smitty37 said:
> ...


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## ed4copies (Dec 23, 2011)

If your English neighbor is an attractive female, sounds like an innocent start to a conversation, that could lead somewhere interesting!!


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## Smitty37 (Dec 24, 2011)

*Smile*

Man, that one has hung on for a long while.  In 1966 and 1967 I spent some time in England related to work and that word use was in then....



PenMan1 said:


> LOL!!!
> FWIW: don't EVER tell your English neighbors that you are considering new carpet and you want their opinion on a "shag"! DAMHIKT
> 
> 
> ...


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## TellicoTurning (Dec 25, 2011)

I've been told by persons learning the English language that it's one of the hardest languages to master (maybe after Icelandic which is mostly unpronounceable) mostly because English has no structure.  Most languages have a masculine/feminine structure and a defined sentence structure... English does not.  It's a Germanic language, but it's not based on the Germanic structure.. go figure.  
I've also heard that Chinese languages have 300 + characters in their alphabet but not that many words... tone of voice can change the meaning of a word in opposite directions or even in unrelated forms.. not speaking Chinese, can't say this with certainty.  
Since I grew up speaking a form of English (Southern drawl) I never thought about it being hard to speak.. it has been a task to learn to use proper English and to not drop vowels or consonants.


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## glen r (Dec 25, 2011)

As one who spent his working life writing allot of technical reports that had to be read and understood by everyone from Engineers and Architects to people that had no technical knowledge I learned one thing.  To best get your message across you have to write using words with 4 letters or less in as much of your work as possible.  This is very difficult to do but you have to put yourself in the person's shoes to whom you are writing the report and also consider others who will be reading the report.  Once you get past that obstacle your information is concise and not offensive to anyone.

Some people can write in a way that their intent is clearly understood by everyone reading their work while others can never master that part of passing on information.  Feeling offended by what someone who you do not know has written is human nature but one must, like others have stated, have a thick skin and know that what is written is not directed at you personally.

I have dealt with Smitty37 a number of times and never felt offended by any of our written interactions, but that's only my opinion.  It appears that others feel different and that too is their right.


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## Hubert H (Dec 25, 2011)

Wow! 

Since I made my living doing public speaking and writing before retirement - now I work part-time at a school - I have found this very interesting.  One of the things not discussed is how a person responds to the response given to one of the writings they send out.  Is it possible they are reading more or less into the response than the responding writer intended?


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## Monty (Dec 25, 2011)

To paraphrase -
"I know that you believe that you understood what you think I wrote, but I  am not sure you realize that what you read is not what I meant."


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## Stevem (Dec 26, 2011)

FWIW

In college there is a separate writing class after ENG 101, 102, and 103 that is called Tech Report Writing.  Describing a technical "thing" is a lot different than writing a story.  

There is a "game" they play to highlight the difference.  Have a person with some sort of a drawing surface, blackboard, white board, pad of paper so they can draw.  Give another person a picture unseen by the first and have them describe the picture without naming a particular shape,  Can't say square, circle, rectangle, etc.  When the results of the directions are seen it can get real humorous.  The picture was so simple, until you tried to describe it.  To each, words mean what WE want them to mean.  Not what others "think"  they mean. 

Tone in voice can somewhat be added to a forum input with the emotions icons.  :bye:


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## leestoresund (Dec 26, 2011)

One thing I have learned from this thread is that the longer responses, in general, provide the best information.
So it would appear that adding a few words or another sentence or two (or both) would go a long way to getting your real point across. 
For some people who are taciturn that could be a problem.
But then everyone else would lose the opportunity to show others how really smart WE are.


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## Smitty37 (Dec 26, 2011)

*a little*



Stevem said:


> FWIW
> 
> In college there is a separate writing class after ENG 101, 102, and 103 that is called Tech Report Writing. Describing a technical "thing" is a lot different than writing a story.
> 
> ...


 To some degree it can, but most of the time I think they are only useful to indicate humor. 

In my opinion there in lies the problem.  
 
In the written word there are two parties - the writer and the reader.  
 
The writer is attempting to convey something and chooses words to do it.  
 
The reader needs to decipher those words.  
 
Because the writer is often writing for many possible readers, but can choose only one way (for a single writing) to write the thought, I think it is incumbent on the reader to avoid "reading in" things not specifically stated and "reading out" things that are.  To do otherwise causes the reader to replace the thoughts of the writer with their own.


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