# Heresy: Who says it has to be shiny?



## cdcarter (Mar 19, 2008)

I've been looking at some of my early pens, going back to the very first ones that were done before I started using CA, CA-BLO and lacquer.

They're good. Real good. Smooth and ... woody.

I look around my home and office and see some very nice stuff -- some bought, some that I made -- in a wide range of finishes ranging from almost matte to high gloss. It occurs to me that fitting the finish to the wood and the final product shapes its character. In general, the better the quality of my furniture, the less it shines. 

Why must every pen, regardless of its style, grain and user preference, aspire to that ultra glossy finish that we all post? 

I've never seen a customer preference for high shine. If anything, I get more compliments on the ones that feel a little more rugged. Just wonder if we need to be a bit more flexible.


----------



## Hello (Mar 19, 2008)

Amen brother.


----------



## igran7 (Mar 19, 2008)

Pens unlike furniture are handled daily.  The oils & dirt from our fingers can break down a finish in no time.  If a pen is just sitting in a drawer or on display and used occasionally then a wax based finish is fine, but if it intended for daily use then a more durable finish is in order.  Granted one can knock down the gloss on a CA/BLO finish to replicate the muted look of a wax finish without sacraficing its durability.

I have a few light colored wood pens (Maple, Birch & Holly) finished with a wax based finish that are no longer recognizable.  All of them are dingy looking, & there is nothing I can do short of taking the pen apart and re-turning them to bring back their original luster. 

I'll stick with CA/BLO until something better comes along.


----------



## kent4Him (Mar 19, 2008)

For me, the switch to CA from friction polish has more to do with durability than shine.  Much like the move from 10k to Titanium Gold, I don't want the finish to be gone in a month or so of normal use.


----------



## GoodTurns (Mar 19, 2008)

I agree with all of you!

I still use a friction finish on SOME pens...my daily/carry pen is a DI Burl Jr Statesman with a Mylands finish.  Use it frequently and it absolutely glows.  I would not even consider putting a CA finish on it.  On the other hand, any wood not as dense or dark will quickly become dark and beaten up if it doesn't have a "solid" finish on it.  Several of my first pens, finished with Mylands, still shine.  Of course, they are the ones sitting in a binder that seldom sees the light of day!  Pens I sell are usually CA'ed simply because the customer does want a long term shine.


----------



## DCBluesman (Mar 19, 2008)

> _Originally posted by cdcarter_
> 
> 
> Why must every pen, regardless of its style, grain and user preference, aspire to that ultra glossy finish that we all post?
> ...



Your post gives the answer.  User preference should dictate the level of gloss.  That being said, in my experience, virtually all of my customers go for a high gloss finish, so that's what I make.  I have only had one or two customers ever ask me to knock-down a finish, which I did for them and they were happy.

Separate from the question of gloss is the question of a protective finish.  To me there is no excuse for a wood pen which is not protected from damage during normal use.  Most waxes and friction finishes do not provide such a finish.  Even if the customer wants no finish, a sanding sealer is my minimum.  I don't want a terrible looking pen out there advertising for me.

BTW, matte and CA/BLO or lacquer finish are not mutually exclusive.  It is simple to produce a matte appearance with either finish.  All it takes is a little 0000 steel wool.


----------



## leehljp (Mar 19, 2008)

What Lou said about the customer - I have read many times here. If you want to sell what you want to sell, then make it the way you want. If you want to sell what customers want, then that is another story. IF you have a customer base that likes less sheen or shine, then that is OK, but most customers in most demographics seem to prefer the very shiny. 

Because some people do not like the very glossy shine of CA and often connected CA with "Shine" only, I did and experiment with CA just to show that a non-shiny CA can be done easily and still have the hard CA protection.

See it HERE under the topic of "To Shine or Not To Shine."


----------



## Gruntster (Mar 19, 2008)

I kinda let the wood decide. Once I get to the finishing steps, I go with what I think fits the wood. Sometimes friction polish, sometimes I dip, sometimes CA/BLO. I don't think I can really put a finger on what makes me decide....just kind of a gut thing.


----------



## karlkuehn (Mar 19, 2008)

Someone posted something similar to this a while back - It's not hard to do a matte CA finish if that's the look you're going for, and you still end up with the hard protective coating. I do multiple CA sheens depending on the wood and the customer. I had one lady buy a pen that I was going to toss in the freebie drawer because I couldn't get it to gloss to save my life, and she liked it that way! She said my other stuff looks 'fake'.

I agree that CA is the best finish for durability - just don't polish it up if you want glow instead of shine. It still feels a little 'plasticky', though. For a nice soft feel, there's no substitute for a hand rubbed French polish, but it'll never last on a pen that gets handled more that once a week.


----------



## Rifleman1776 (Mar 19, 2008)

To answer your question: The customer.
Non-shiny pens simply do not sell.


----------



## wizical (Mar 19, 2008)

I have to agree with you CDCARTER, I have sold different finish pens, and no one has come back and said to me that it has lost it shine or something else has happened.  They buy my pen cause they like the feel in their hand and how it writes, everyone gets so caught up on how shiny it is, that we forget about the people buying the pens.  my own words


----------



## toolcrazy (Mar 19, 2008)

I don't like the look of CA, whether it is shiny or semi gloss. It still looks fake to me. I think Enduro is just as durable as CA, once it is fully cured. And you can create a nice shine without it looking "Fake". JMHO


----------



## ahoiberg (Mar 20, 2008)

i hear you. while i like the challenge of the CA finish, i also find great beauty in finishing a pen with nothing. just polish the wood with MM. i know customers like glossy, but all my pens end up in my house.


----------



## Ligget (Mar 20, 2008)

Most of my sales are through custom orders, I always ask the customer to decide on what finish they prefer on the wood chosen!

Some want a natural look and feel to their pen but most have no preference and leave it to me to choose! [8D]


----------



## aurrida (Mar 20, 2008)

here is a company the none shinnies will like.

http://www.graf-von-faber-castell.com/

personally i think some woods lose their appeal when given a high gloss finish while others are enhanced.


----------



## cdcarter (Mar 20, 2008)

For the record, it was not my intent for this to be a "friction vs CA" thread. Seems we can't get past that around here. 

About 90% of my pens are CA or lacquer, but I know of no other area of woodworking in which a high-gloss preference is a given. I've been consciously testing this, and if anything, there is a negative correlation between shine and reorders. The duller it is, the more they seem to want. 

I'm not saying that's universally the case, because I doubt it is. But I  think some of the things we "know" are more dogma than reality.


----------



## barryu (Mar 20, 2008)

My wife and I have had this discussion before, too.  She likes the real wood and I like the shiny.  She says it just looks real and feels softer.  I think it looks like a new pair of shoes, shiney.


----------



## leehljp (Mar 20, 2008)

> _Originally posted by cdcarter_
> 
> For the record, it was not my intent for this to be a "friction vs CA" thread. Seems we can't get past that around here.
> 
> ...



You are missing two VERY expensive and real wood areas where High Gloss is not only preferred but expected - Pianos and Japanese Lacquer ware! Smudge the shine off of those and you don't have anything special.

Japanese as a whole prefer HIGH Gloss. That is a cultural trait from their lacquer wares - not the cheap kind but very high quality. High Gloss there is not just the result of paint chemistry but of master craftsmen who labor over hand polishing to mirror shines, where it be tinted paints or clear.


----------



## cdcarter (Mar 21, 2008)

I'll concede that point, and I'll make a point to put a very glossy finish on the next piano I make.


----------



## hunter-27 (Apr 12, 2008)

> _Originally posted by cdcarter_
> 
> I've been looking at some of my early pens, going back to the very first ones that were done before I started using CA, CA-BLO and lacquer.
> 
> ...



Just to bring a new life to a dead horse, I'll add this link:  Comes in gloss or semi-gloss

http://www.penturners.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=36098#376189


----------



## redfishsc (Apr 13, 2008)

That is the precise reason I spray every one of my wood pens-- I can spray them with "satin" and then, if I decide it would look better glossy, I put back on the lathe and buff them with MM or something similar to a shiny gloss. 

Here's a couple of pics of some pens sprayed with satin conversion varnish. The flash from the camera makes them look a bit shinier than they actually are. They feel buttery smooth but look like smooth, sleek wood rather than mirror-like glass or plastic. 


Bethlehem Olive






Plain-jane red oak from a tree that was in a church yard.


----------



## redfishsc (Apr 13, 2008)

> _Originally posted by DCBluesman_
> 
> 
> BTW, matte and CA/BLO or lacquer finish are not mutually exclusive.  It is simple to produce a matte appearance with either finish.  All it takes is a little 0000 steel wool.



I've had a hard time with the steel wool because it tends to leave streaks rather than an even, satin sheet. How do you get it even without having streaks?


----------



## 1JaredSchmidt (Apr 13, 2008)

I can't figure out that CA finish. To me,sanding to 12,000 grit,EEE cream,Shellawax,and Renessence wax will give it quite a shine. Jest ma leetle upinion.[]


----------



## redfishsc (Apr 13, 2008)

Jared, if I read your post correctly, you are suggesting simple MM of the wood followed by friction polish and Ren wax. 

That will look very, very nice for a week or two. I would not sell a pen made that way unless it was African blackwood, cocobolo, ebony, or desert ironwood (ie, oily, hard, dense stuff). After a while, other woods will begin to absorb your hand crud and show it.


----------



## hunter-27 (Apr 13, 2008)

> _Originally posted by redfishsc_
> 
> Jared, if I read your post correctly, you are suggesting simple MM of the wood followed by friction polish and Ren wax.
> 
> That will look very, very nice for a week or two. I would not sell a pen made that way unless it was African blackwood, cocobolo, ebony, or desert ironwood (ie, oily, hard, dense stuff). After a while, other woods will begin to absorb your hand crud and show it.



Dead on perfectly said!!!!


----------



## gerryr (Apr 16, 2008)

> _Originally posted by cdcarter_
> 
> there is a negative correlation between shine and reorders. The duller it is, the more they seem to want.



All I can say is you have a very unique set of customers.  I've tried selling wood pens with satin finish and high gloss, whether it's CA or lacquer will outsell satin 100 to 1, at a minimum.  I think part of that has to do with what people expect when they look at a pen.  They expect a pen, almost no matter the manufacturer, to be high gloss.


----------



## RussFairfield (Apr 16, 2008)

Hey, that "natural hand crud" is called a "natural patina". 

There was a time, about 20 years ago, when I could sell a SlimLine pen with a "natural patina". But, that is no longer true. People demand gloss and durability. The problem is that the SlimLine pen sells for the same price as it did 20 years ago, and takes 3 times longer to sand finish.


----------



## 1JaredSchmidt (Apr 21, 2008)

I've watched your vid on CA finishes Russ,but I can't get the hang of it. How do you keep the bushings from sticking to the wood and the mandrel. I want to turn between centers and that might help,but I don't know what I need and how I can get started. Any suggestions?[?][?]


----------



## rincewind03060 (Apr 21, 2008)

I would think that in order to feel "woody", the finish must not have filled in the pores and variations grain (i.e. not smooth). If that is the case, is the wood adequately protected? 

That wasn't rhetorical, I don't know the answer.

PS, I like both looks about equally.


----------



## leehljp (Apr 21, 2008)

> _Originally posted by rincewind03060_
> 
> I would think that in order to feel "woody", the finish must not have filled in the pores and variations grain (i.e. not smooth). If that is the case, is the wood adequately protected?
> 
> ...



Generally, No, it is not adequately protected. If it is to be "looked at" and "on display" for the VAST majority of the time, it could be adequate. However, "one size does not fit all" and individuals are different. Some have sweaty palms/hands that will cause dark spots within weeks of use if the wood is not protected. Wax and polish will wear off in days for this kind of person and within weeks in normal circumstances. 

Look at outside corners in a house, doors near the door knobs, commonly used kitchen drawers - dirt and hand oils transfers and do the same to pens. Pens kept in the shirt pocket pick up sweat moisture. These affect the coloring in long term use and not in a good way. So to put it in practical terms, unprotected, it will stain from dirt and oils.


----------



## redfishsc (Apr 21, 2008)

> _Originally posted by rincewind03060_
> 
> I would think that in order to feel "woody", the finish must not have filled in the pores and variations grain (i.e. not smooth). If that is the case, is the wood adequately protected?
> 
> ...




Your question has a tricky, but definite, albeit with some qualification. 

Getting the "woody" feel (leave that one alone too, Lou!) you would need to preserve the grainy feel if the wood has such a thing (maple has none, zebrawood has a LOT, and cocobolo is in betwixt). 

You absolutely CAN get the grainy, woody feel and have the UTMOST in wood protection. This is easy. Spray them with lacquer after sanding your wood to around 600 grit (which is ludicrously smooth for spraying with lacquer, trust me). Skip sanding sealer altogether, just pile up coat after coat of lacquer, maybe 5-10 coats allowing a bit of tack in between. If the wood is open grained, the coats of lacquer will conform to the tiny pores in the grain. Thus keeping the "woody" feel. 


The big problem with a film finish over raw grainy wood is the "plastic effect" being ten times worse, so don't do this with a gloss lacquer-- use satin or even "dull" if you can find it. This will look a LOT more like wood. 



That being said, I have not found a finish yet that comes even close to retaining the "wood" feel while also providing great durability like satin/dull lacquers and catalyzed varnishes. It's ALMOST the only finish I use. I still use the BLO/CA finish when I can pull it off, and sometimes on african blackwood and DI I just sand, wax, and assemble.


----------



## workinforwood (Apr 27, 2008)

Who says?..I say.  I make my pen and I decide it needs to be shiny.  You make your pen and if you don't like shiny, don't do shiny.


----------

