# Craftsman vs. Artist, You be the judge



## soligen (May 12, 2011)

There is a recent thread on tis topic that I find very interesting. There are varying options, which I find healthy.

Some people (including me) express opinions about art being determined by others, and some say that a body of work is needed to see if someone is an artist. Others have mentioned creativity.

I personally feel that the subjective determiantion of art is something that can only be shared by example, as language breaks down. I th ink comeone can be considered an artist if a non-trivial percentage of people see their work as art.

So, out of curiosity, I'll use myself as a guinea pig. Do you consider my work art? 

Here is a link to the photo album I use to share my pens with friends and family. It contains pictures my some of my work - from the early rookie days up thrugh the second last pen I've made. Album is in roughly chronological sequence.

https://picasaweb.google.com/soligen2010


I'm not looking for this to be an ego boost poll. I want to honestly understand what other prople see as art. I'm happy being a craftsman, so give an honest assessment, and fee free to reply with your honest feedback in this thread. 

Every one of these pens is a one-of-a-kind, or the first of a basic design. I've never made more that 3 pens of the same basic design, and I typically only photo the first. 

Please discount the photography, especially the early pics.

Thanks


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## G1Pens (May 12, 2011)

I voted based on your pictures in your gallery. To me, the segmenting is a hint of art. Art to me is crativity....having your own design. It is more about colors. Shapes, design changes, kitless, modifications....those are all skills of a craftsman. The segmenting is also craftsman, but there is a hint of art because you have to come up with the design and the colors. It all overlaps at some point, but in your work I see much more of a craftsman....but then that is just my opinion and we all know about those.....


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## dow (May 12, 2011)

Hmm... Dennis, this is a tough one.  You are definitely a skilled craftsman, and your execution is absolutely first rate.  I see elements of your designs that could be called artistic as well.  I guess that my hangup is with the stereotypical picture of the artist, alone, morose and starving for his art, that kind of turns me off to the "artist" moniker.  

I'd say that you're a skilled craftsman and a very gifted and insightful designer.

Maybe the term "artisan" would be better?  I like it better, anyway.  

Hope this helps.

Oh yeah, and I didn't vote.  Couldn't find anything in the list that really fit.


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## Andrew_K99 (May 12, 2011)

We are not artists IMO.  We are craftsman.

Artists start with a blank slate and turn nothing into something beautiful.  We start with beautiful natural or man made blanks and manufactured kits and turn this into a pen.  Furniture makers, Potters don't call themselves artists, how can we?

AK


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## Padre (May 12, 2011)

I would vote, but you don't have a line that says "Dennis is a craftsman artist."

I do not see one being exclusive of the other.   I have taken the liberty to use the Merriam-Webster dictionary definitions of craft and artist.  After reading these, I would say you are a pen craft artist.

*Definition of CRAFT* from Merriam-Webster:

1*:* skill in planning, making, or executing *:* dexterity 

2_a_ *:* an occupation or trade requiring manual dexterity or artistic skill <the carpenter's _craft_> <the _craft_ of writing plays> <_craft__s_ such as pottery, carpentry, and sewing>    _b_ _plural_ *:* articles made by craftspeople <a store selling _craft__s_> <a _craft__s_ fair> 

3*:* skill in deceiving to gain an end <used _craft_ and guile to close the deal> 

4*:* the members of a trade or trade association

*Definition of Artist from Merriam-Webster
*

1_a_ _obsolete_ *:* one skilled or versed in learned arts    _b_ _archaic_ *:* physician _c_ _archaic_ *:* artisan 1 

2_a_ *:* one who professes and practices an imaginative art    _b_ *:* a person skilled in one of the fine arts 


3*:* a skilled performer; _especially_ *:* artiste 


4*:* one who is adept at something <con _artist_> <strikeout _artist_> 





 See artist defined for English-language learners »

See artist defined for kids »


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## Gofer (May 12, 2011)

Personally I would rather have someone pay me the compliment of calling me a craftsman.  It used to be the highest achivment for a person in thier respective trade.  Your pens show that you have mastered the craft and produce much more than just the average turned and assembled pen that we all start out with.

"Art is in the eye of the beholder" and while many different things can be considered "art", to me it is not a good description of what we do (or try to).  When you say artist most people would immeadiately think of someone with a canvas and some paints.  While not overly hard to do it does require skills that I will never have.  Our craft / hobby / job / ect has it's own required skill sets as well and to me we do so much more than a painter does (my opinion only, as I said I have a hard time painting anything more than a wall).  

To take a raw product be that wood, steel, plastic or any material for that matter and then transform it into something useful would not be the work of an artist but that of a craftsman.  Having said that anythything whe turn can have artistic value to the right individual.

Bruce


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## Andrew_K99 (May 12, 2011)

Gofer said:


> ... and to me we do so much more than a painter does ...


We may do _more_ then the painter BUT more can do what we do, few can paint well.

AK


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## john__tucker (May 14, 2011)

Dennis, 
 I find that people who are outside the penturning world typically see it as art. Personally, It depends on how I am feeling when I go in to the studihop ( my new word from the original post on this topic). Those moments when you are turning a pen and you become frustrated because you cant see what you are looking for...The artist. When you go out there because you admire the wood and need that moment alone...The craftsman.


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## John Pratt (Jun 2, 2011)

(Caveat: I am not the origin of this saying, But I think it holds basically true.)

One who creates with his hands is a laborer.

One who creates with his hands and mind is a craftsman.

One who creates with his hands, mind, and heart is an artist.

I think each person has to make the determination themselves. There are many things that a majority of people would not find as "art", but if the artist is trying to express themselves, a feeling, or an idea then maybe they consider themselves an artist. I would list an example of something I do not consider art that maybe the artist does, but I don't want to go down that road.

John


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## lorbay (Jun 2, 2011)

Yep your a craftsman/artisan.

Lin.


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## Arcadia (Jun 2, 2011)

To me Artisan is a great term.  It seems to express an image of someone dedicated to creating something that someone else has an image of in their mind.  I can draw, paint, and write so that kind of makes me an artist.  What defines me is my passion for creating whether through knives(my first passion), jewelry, pens or other things I make with the skills of a craftsman.  A craftsman makes things for people(cookie cutter).  I make things for me, and if you'd like to buy it, I'll give you a price.  If you don't like it, well I do and I'll keep it gladly.  

I haven't sold a pen yet but rest assured they'll be out at the next show I do.  Don't have many done and I don't consider them works of art but the ideas used to conceptualize the finished product can be considered artistry.  If you love what you do consider yourself anything you want to be.  We are exactly what we think we are!

I'll be posting more of my creations on my blog.  So check it out.

www.arcadiaknives.blogspot.com

Pat


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## edicehouse (Jun 18, 2011)

I am 35 and I know a lot of these "Professional Photographers" now a days. Another words they have a nice digital camera, and a good photo printer in their house.  They get people to pay them 75 bucks for an appointment and also get payed 15 bucks for an 8X10. I know some that take a picture of the fishing pier in Nags Head and frame it (which in this area I have seen 5000 different versions from the same spot) and they think that is art. A lot of other people think that is art. . . 

If that is considered art I want to be called a craftsman.


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## PenMan1 (Jun 18, 2011)

Sometimes I am an artist. Those are the days that I am "out there", free thinking, disrespecting all the rules, and just doing my own thing.

Other days, I am a craftsman. Those are the days that I am using someone else's components and others pen materials. My contribution is to try for flawless execution of a finished product.

But most days, I'm just a wood and acrylic butcher.


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## kludge77 (Jun 23, 2011)

I'm a woodworker. If the title was good enough for Sam Maloof, it's certainly good enough for me.


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## ren-lathe (Jun 23, 2011)

I have always favored the term Artisan.
As defined by webster:  one that produces something (as cheese or wine) in limited quantities often using traditional methods
The biggest problem with the term "art" is a definition I once saw a stack of what was essentially firewood called art. As I write this I am in St PAul for the AAW symposium. in front of the desk I am sitting at is a painting it consists of 2 irregular circles and 3 partial circles looks what my son was drawing in kindergarten. They were fine at his age but since he has grown things look much better. I guess I can sum up with one mans art is another's eye-sore


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## PenMan1 (Jun 23, 2011)

IF what Lady Gaga does (sings songs I don't understand, while undressing) is art, I guess I'll settle for Craftsman!


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## JimB (Jun 23, 2011)

PenMan1 said:


> IF what Lady Gaga does (sings songs I don't understand, while undressing) is art, I guess I'll settle for Craftsman!


 
What? You don't undress while turning a pen?


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## PenMan1 (Jun 23, 2011)

JimB said:


> PenMan1 said:
> 
> 
> > IF what Lady Gaga does (sings songs I don't understand, while undressing) is art, I guess I'll settle for Craftsman!
> ...


 
AIN"T NOBODY GONNA PAY TO SEE THAT! I sing better.. but, well you know....55 years on the "Mochine" ain't ever pretty!


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## NewLondon88 (Jun 23, 2011)

I don't think I'd want to be known as an artist myself..

Sometimes I think there are only two types known as artists.
One is the people whom everyone agrees is an artist. The other is
the person who calls themselves an artist, but nobody else does.

Yeah.. woodworker would work for me, too.


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## PenMan1 (Jun 23, 2011)

NewLondon88 said:


> I don't think I'd want to be known as an artist myself..
> 
> Sometimes I think there are only two types known as artists.
> One is the people whom everyone agrees is an artist. The other is
> ...


 
I've met two types of artists. 

The first beats you over the head with "I'm an artist". The usually wear little beret type hats, wear silly shaded glasses, wear pucholy oil perfume and are never happy about anything. These had one unknown gallery in"MON HOTTON" show one piece of their stuff, 30 years ago. And they proudly display stuff I don't understand, wouldn't buy and frequently looks like three different sub-species of monkeys had "the runs" on a single piece of canvas.

The other type of artist is extremely shy, always say "well, if don't know if you can call what I do art", are "out there" and makes stuff that "speaks to me". Those people price their stuff from $5 to $500,000, and are glad to discuss "their thought process", etc. They are genuinely happy that you "get" their concept, whether you buy or not. They consider themselves people fortunate enough to do what they love.

I put Sam Maloof squarely into the second catagory. His compound and works are truely sights to behold....in fact, enough to get into all the the "significant" locations...like the Smithsonian, AND others.

If woodworker is good enough for Sam...I'm still WoodButcher.


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