# Why are pen kits so danged expensive? Alternatives?



## Driftwoodturner

I realize that you get what you pay for, "bling" costs money, but it just seems to me that these kits should not cost as much as they do. 

Anyone else feel this way? 

What do you do personally to get around the high cost of pen kits?

Good quality goods come from Taiwan, better than China, but are there any from China that are both cheap and good?


----------



## Dan Hintz

Knowing how much it costs to manufacture something does not negate the money required to advertise, pack/ship, hold stock, etc.  A plastic widget may hold two cents in plastic, but sells for $1... because someone has to use electricity to manufacture it, pay workers to pack them in boxes (pay for the boxes), ship them, stock them, and so on.

A $2 slimline seems like a pretty good deal to me when you consider all that goes into it from a Rockler/Woodcraft/PSI point of view... of course, it looks even better when I purchase it direct from the manufacturer for $1.20.  A $50 kit seems pretty pricey, but you can't expect them to make the same $0.80 profit on a kit that costs 25 times as much, as inventory comes into play.

Personally?  I look at the kit cost as a material cost and price my pens at a point where the materials are a small fraction of the price.


----------



## Smitty37

Driftwoodturner said:


> *Good quality goods come from Taiwan, better than China, but are there any from China that are both cheap and good?*


 *Don't go to the bank on that.*
 
*Yes, lots of them.*


----------



## hard hat

The get around? Spend the money on American made kits or go kitless ( or at least kit bashing)


----------



## redbulldog

The bashing serves NO purpose in my book. It is used only for self gratification as far as I am concerned, just my own opinion, so I will leave now!


----------



## mredburn

Goods are sold on the "Price the Market will Bear"  I have always said if you think they are expensive try and make one. That will let you  know their real worth.  And not just pen kits.


----------



## Dan Masshardt

Not all kits are expensive.  Some prices are really good.   Slimline for $2. Cigar, trim, euro all around $5.  

Like anything else, you can get kits that are expensive.  You can get kits that are inexpensive.   

You don't get the best of anything at the lowest price.


----------



## Smitty37

Driftwoodturner said:


> I realize that you get what you pay for, "bling" costs money,* but it just seems to me that these kits should not cost as much as they do.*


 *What do you base that on?  Kit prices range from less than $2.00 to over $200....which ones do you think cost too much?*


----------



## Driftwoodturner

Smitty37 said:


> Driftwoodturner said:
> 
> 
> 
> I realize that you get what you pay for, "bling" costs money,* but it just seems to me that these kits should not cost as much as they do.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *What do you base that on?  Kit prices range from less than $2.00 to over $200....which ones do you think cost too much?*
Click to expand...


Specifically I wish I could buy decent Cigar pen kits for the price of a Slimline, but maybe I'm asking too much? I guess its who ya know!:biggrin:


----------



## Wildman

Yes, some pen kits just too expensive for me to make for my market.  I stopped making Slimline pens because neither my customers nor I can buy cross refills locally.  I stopped making fountain pens because no buyers.  

Only way to find out if pen kit too expensive is know your cost to make and market you cater too!  Just like being in boy/girl scouts be prepared for what did not sell today will sell tomorrow!


----------



## knowltoh

Honestly, i don't see how I can buy kits as inexpensively as I do.  The enjoyment and relaxation I get are priceless.  A lot cheaper than a shrink!


----------



## Irish Pat

I have heard so much about buying American made kits,who makes American kits?


----------



## turncrazy43

I am aware of two. Marksman and lazerlines. Does anyone know of others?


----------



## OLDMAN5050

Wildman said:


> Yes, some pen kits just too expensive for me to make for my market. I stopped making Slimline pens because neither my customers nor I can buy cross refills locally. I stopped making fountain pens because no buyers.
> 
> Only way to find out if pen kit too expensive is know your cost to make and market you cater too! Just like being in boy/girl scouts be prepared for what did not sell today will sell tomorrow!


 

Is there not a Office Depot, Office Max, or a office supply there. I see in yellow pages there is a Staples....


----------



## Smitty37

Driftwoodturner said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Driftwoodturner said:
> 
> 
> 
> I realize that you get what you pay for, "bling" costs money,* but it just seems to me that these kits should not cost as much as they do.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *What do you base that on? Kit prices range from less than $2.00 to over $200....which ones do you think cost too much?*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Specifically I wish I could buy decent Cigar pen kits for the price of a Slimline, but maybe I'm asking too much? I guess its who ya know!:biggrin:
Click to expand...

If you buy enough at one time you probably can. Buy 100 and you can get them for $3.17 each - 500 will get you below $3.00.  That includes shipping which is 70% higher than the slimlines.  The shipping is higher because they weigh twice as much as slimlines, which is also one reason they cost more.


----------



## Smitty37

turncrazy43 said:


> I am aware of two. Marksman and lazerlines. Does anyone know of others?


 Rrealy only one, I think Marksman are manufactured by lazerlinez.  There are probably a couple of custom makers you could get, if you have enough money.  They won't come cheap.


----------



## ed4copies

I am quite certain Constant (Lazerlinez) is no longer making Mark's (Marksman) pens-for over a year, at least.  Mark has his own manufacturer.


----------



## OKLAHOMAN

Wrong, they split up their partnership on the made in the USA pens  a  little over a year ago but Mark still contracts Constance to manufacture his Marksman line of pens. 



ed4copies said:


> I am quite certain Constant (Lazerlinez) is no longer making Mark's (Marksman) pens-for over a year, at least. Mark has his own manufacturer.


----------



## fernhills

I have been exploring stick pens. But need to have to change the refill to make it worthwhile to the buyer.  Even if you sell them for ten $$ whats the sense to the buyer if he has to throw them out when the ink is gone. Why throw good wood out. I am looking at a few styles that cost more then 11 cents, but under a buck that might work.


----------



## Smitty37

fernhills said:


> I have been exploring stick pens. But need to have to change the refill to make it worthwhile to the buyer. Even if you sell them for ten $$ whats the sense to the buyer if he has to throw them out when the ink is gone. Why throw good wood out. I am looking at a few styles that cost more then 11 cents, but under a buck that might work.


That sounds like you're getting into the mass market arena.  I'm not sure I'd go there but maybe it will work for you.


----------



## Smitty37

OKLAHOMAN said:


> Wrong, they split up their partnership on the made in the USA pens a little over a year ago but Mark still contracts Constance to manufacture his Marksman line of pens.
> 
> 
> 
> ed4copies said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am quite certain Constant (Lazerlinez) is no longer making Mark's (Marksman) pens-for over a year, at least. Mark has his own manufacturer.
Click to expand...

I agree....I buy a little from both of them and neither has told me any different.


----------



## Dan Masshardt

Driftwoodturner said:


> Specifically I wish I could buy decent Cigar pen kits for the price of a Slimline, but maybe I'm asking too much? I guess its who ya know!:biggrin:



I've never bought any cigar that I felt was poorly made. Others will disagree I'm sure but  $5-$7 is a great price in my opinion.  

If you think anything more than $2 is too much for a pen kit, I wouldn't know what to say to you because we are on two completely different wavelengths. 

Now I wish I could get black titanium rollerball kits cheaper, but I understand why they cost as much as they do.


----------



## OOPS

Here are a few tips to save money on kit purchases. This may or may not be helpful to all, but these are points to consider.

1. Buy kits in chrome plating. Chrome plating is durable and is normally the cheapest price of the platings. When you buy wood and acrylic blanks, look for those that will look best on chrome rather than gold, Black Ti, etc. This reduces your inventory expenditures on both blanks and kits. 

2. Get on the email lists from all the IAP vendors. They oftentimes have sales on a kit or two, or a certain plating, that allows you to save some money. I have also found that by looking at the Woodcraft website, they oftentimes have unadvertised specials on blanks. Their kits are normally pricy.

3. Most IAP vendors allow you to buy in larger quantities to save $$$ per kit. Some allow you to mix and match kits in order to obtain larger quantity discounts. Along these lines, if you are trying to economize, keep the number of pen styles you make to a minimum, or have some styles that you make only "custom." That way you don't have so much tied up in kits for pens that don't move readily. Also, SHOP AROUND!  I have seen examples of kits, blanks, pen boxes, and most everything else sells at prices that deviate substantially from vendor to vendor.  And the vendor who is the lowest in price this time may not be the lowest in two months, when you re-order.  

These steps can help you save money. One more thing. I can sell a cigar pen for more than I can sell a Slimline. Over time, I will sell more of them too. Your market might be different, but in my case, paying an extra $3-$6 for the kit is of little concern when it sells faster and for more money. 

I hope this helps.


----------



## robutacion

Reading the comments so far, I didn't find anyone asking the most important question (in my view) and that is, reverse the OP question meaning and ask, what are the sale prices of the pens he wants to make with the kits he wants to buy a lot cheaper...???

I have to ask this because I wonder, what kit, sale price are we talking about here...???

I find many of the very cheap kits, couldn't be any better with the price one normally pays for, anything under $5.00 for a kit, can not possibly have quality materials, platings, cartrigdes, mechanisms, etc...!

Yes, I do make a few pens and I normally use middle of the range kits as I find them to offer the best value for the money and I don't want to waste my time and my blanks in $1.00 kits that will me make look bad, soon after the sale/order/gift/sample/donation, etc...!

All is "relative" in my view, if you want to sell $15.00 pens you certainly need to use those $2 kits, you aren't going to sell a $200 pen with one of those $2 kits in it, the person that is willing to spend $200 in a pen, know a little about pens or at least can recognise some quality in the pen, and that is normally a combination of 4 things, the kit, blank used, craftsmanship and finish.

Sure, you can put an exception blank on a $2 kit and sell that pen for $50 which in my view is a much better way to spend your time making pens, the difference between a very average pen blank and a quality one, can be less than $5 however, you spend the very same time making it and you efforts all all of a certain increased from $10 to $40 and that isn't something to ignore...!

The same principle goes for the use of a $2 kit and a $30, you put an very average pen blank on a $30 kit and you wont sell it for much more than if you had used a $2 kit however, you put a quality blank on a $30.00 kit and all of a certain your working efforts increases 400%, the only difference is that, on the previously example you had 400% increase also but based on a much smaller amount so, you can be spending the exact same time making a pen, regardless if is a $15 or a $200 pen however, you efforts increase from $10 to $150 +...!

Like I said, everything is relative, only you can make the decision of which way you want to go but remember this, the high prices marked on some kits are a direct result of the prices those pens are sold for, those selling those kits price them accordingly to the value that YOU have put on the pen sale.

Consider the prices the manufacturers are getting for their products, they are not as hight, percentage wise as the prices you and I have to pay for them so, its a simple demand and supply technique/principle that some vendors/stores take on far too advantageously...!

Stop buying those very expensive kits, what do you thing would happen...??? only one thing could happen, they had to come down in price and much more in tune with a fair profit system than what we see in our days so, we may have some responsibility in seen how some pen kits prices are sold in our days.

The vast majority of those making quality kitless pens today, are so due to all the facts I presented above, they got sick of it and went the other way, they created they own sale value based solely to their expertise at quality pen making...!

These are obviously, my thoughts...!:wink::biggrin:

Cheers
George


----------



## Tom T

The thing I would like to see is a way to rank the plating so when we by a kit at what ever price.  We can know ahead of time if it will hold up over time.
I would rather spend more to know I had a quality product.  
That said I do not sell many pens.  I give most away.  But I have a day job so I can not make as many as I like.


----------



## Mason Kuettel

Here's your chance.....

http://www.penturners.org/forum/f157/cigar-puro-closeout-smittys-113660/


----------



## Driftwoodturner

Mason Kuettel said:


> Here's your chance.....
> 
> http://www.penturners.org/forum/f157/cigar-puro-closeout-smittys-113660/



Thats one way to fight Rizheng prices !!:biggrin:


----------



## edstreet

Few words of encouragement.

I have never seen a cigar kit that I felt was 'high quality'.

Topic being similar to my recent post about platting vs cost yields that likely all pen kits are over priced.

Even 'American made' is not a sign of quality, it is a sign of comradery only, don't confuse the two.

'quality' items can indeed come from area like china, if a company is willing to spend the resources needed to overcome the cultural barrier, train and educate the work force and directly oversee the quality control every step of the way.

Kits over $200?   Where? Who? I would love to see some.

Last thing to add:  It is quite a poor showing that there are 3-4 basic styles and everything is variations of those.  Nothing 'new' has been introduced in a very very long time now and even 'new' products has been rehashed spin off clones of those 3-4 styles.  Hate to say it but I have to give the industry an F for originality.


----------



## PenMan1

In two words, the reason pens prices have increased in price since 2008 is: 
Petroleum prices.

Half the price of ALMOST every tangible product is shipping. Raw materials must be shipped to "refiners". Refiners ship their value afded products to manufacturers, etc., etc, etc. By the time that product gets to you (in the case of pen makers for hire-NOT EVEN the end user) shipping has been "tacked on" at least 6 or 7 times. EVEN IF each supplier in the chain COULD "hold the price line" on all other products, they STILL have no control over shipping.

Wanna get the price of pen parts down? The first step SHOULD BE to get fuel prices back to Pre 2009 prices. EVER SEEN THE PRICE OF SHIPPING DECREASE WHEN FUEL PRICES SHRINK? I haven't.

My only wish is that MORE suppliers would offer the Burger King "have it your way" approach, rather than the McDonald's "This is the way it comes approach". I NEVEF use standard refills, nibs, ink cartridges and many of the components that come in a standard "kit". If I didn't have to pay the shipping on ALL of those pieces I throw away (including MILLIONS of tiny, environmentally polluting, petroleum based, plastic baggies, JUST THINK of all of the fuel charges I saved!

(PenMan now slowly steps down from the soap box).


----------



## PenMan1

The only "tangible" product that I can think of that "bypasses" the above stated "shipping syndrome" is software products delivered electronically.

If my shipping theory is correct, EXPECT rapid advances in technology such as 3D printing, etc, because end users can then make at home many of the products they buy. These "homemade" products will be substantially cheaper simply by cutting the shipping process in half.


----------



## Wildman

OLDMAN5050, yes have both stores in my town and couple other office supplies stores none carry Cross refills!   Stables and Office Max will special order them for you.  Last time checked cost $6 to order  two Cross refills.  Found out could buy pack of two Parker refills at Wal Mart $2.98.   That was over eight years ago.

I am aware can buy packs of cross refills cheaper from any pen kit vendor. Yes, several nice kits other than Slimlines use cross refills too. 

Made a business decision, to make only kits that take Parker refills which has served me well.


----------



## Smitty37

robutacion said:


> ...!
> 
> Stop buying those very expensive kits, what do you thing would happen...??? *only one thing could happen,* they had to come down in price and much more in tune with a fair profit system than what we see in our days so, we may have some responsibility in seen how some pen kits prices are sold in our days.
> 
> 
> :wink::biggrin:
> 
> Cheers
> George


Nothing could be farther from reality....reducing demand for a commodity might result in a temporary reduction in price while existing stocks are sold off but the end result could be just manufacturing smaller quantities (to meet the new demand) and raising the price or (if the selling point drops below the cost of production)ceasing manufacture the commodity at all hence removing it from the market.  

Few of the manufacturers are chained to pen kits sold to pen makers.  They also make many other products including producing parts for mass producers.


----------



## Smitty37

PenMan1 said:


> In two words, the reason pens prices have increased in price since 2008 is:
> Petroleum prices.
> 
> *Half the price of ALMOST every tangible product is shipping*. .


 
In some cases more.  Buy 20 cigar pen kits in China and you will pay about $45 for the kits and $30 for shipping - buy 100 and you'll pay about $225 for the kits and about $90 shipping.  If you buy from a USA Vendor the shipping from China is about $.50 per kit if he buys in quantity but then you need to pay shipping in the USA which can be another $.50 (10 kits shipped USPS small flat rate box is closer to $.60) or more depending on how many you buy.


----------



## walshjp17

Mason Kuettel said:


> Here's your chance.....
> 
> http://www.penturners.org/forum/f157/cigar-puro-closeout-smittys-113660/



Smitty's close out means you can get 378 Cigar kits for $3.22 each (plus shipping) and that price includes the costs of all the extra tubes, transmissions and 6 sets of bushings.  Certainly inexpensive in my book!  


All ya gotta do is cough up $1245.:biggrin::wink:


----------



## CharlesJohnson

I still say, try making your own designs and producing "Your" quaunties (sp).  Then compare the cost.  I think then we will appreciate the bargains we have. I'm sure, many would agree.


----------



## Mikie

I don't really mind the cost of the kits, there is a reasonably good  range out there. Unfortunately I rarely purchase from USA vendors as shipping costs are astronomical for the smaller quantities I can purchase  without incurring custom fees, handling fees and Tax @ 23%. We can only  buy 22 euro worth including shipping costs ($30), we also incur a  customs handling charge if we go above this amount. A few $40 dollar  pens can cost as much as $100 each by the time they reach me.


----------



## Smitty37

CharlesJohnson said:


> I still say, try making your own designs and producing "Your" quaunties (sp). Then compare the cost. I think then we will appreciate the bargains we have. I'm sure, many would agree.


I also note with just a little awe, how willing IAP buyers are to cough up $4 to $15 (a lot more for certain special blanks) for pretty ordinary plastic blanks which when used will end up 90% or 95% in the trash can as shavings.  The same buyers will sometimes lament paying $10.00 for a kit which they use 100% and nothing goes in the trash but the little baggies.


----------



## Smitty37

PenMan1 said:


> *My only wish is that MORE suppliers would offer the Burger King "have it your way" approach, rather than the McDonald's "This is the way it comes approach".* *I NEVEF use standard refills, nibs, ink cartridges and many of the components that come in a standard "kit". If I didn't have to pay the shipping on ALL of those pieces I throw away (including MILLIONS of tiny, environmentally polluting, petroleum based, plastic baggies, JUST THINK of all of the fuel charges I saved!*
> 
> (PenMan now slowly steps down from the soap box).


*I know one who is more than willing to go that route, but the line of customers just isn't there.  *
*Lots of folks don't use them either...but offering kits without them doesn't attract a lot of buyers.*

*I don't like those little baggies a lot myself, but I can't think of any other way to keep components from getting what we used to call in the coin business "bag marks".  Even with them we get some that no doubt happen before the parts get bagged.*


----------



## edicehouse

I wish I could buy majestic kits for $6 a piece, but certain things are not going to happen.


----------



## OKLAHOMAN

Ed, how much RESEARCH did you put into this statement:biggrin:  you told me and the rest of the forum you always research your statements before making them here is your direct quote and to make sure all saw it you did it in red.
Sorry Roy, I ALWAYS do research before making a statement!!
Mark still uses Lazerlines and that's a fact....





ed4copies said:


> I am quite certain Constant (Lazerlinez) is no longer making Mark's (Marksman) pens-for over a year, at least.  Mark has his own manufacturer.


----------



## edstreet

OKLAHOMAN said:


> Ed, how much RESEARCH did you put into this statement:biggrin:  you told me and the rest of the forum you always research your statements before making them here is your direct quote and to make sure all saw it you did it in red.
> Sorry Roy, I ALWAYS do research before making a statement!!
> Mark still uses Lazerlines and that's a fact....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ed4copies said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am quite certain Constant (Lazerlinez) is no longer making Mark's (Marksman) pens-for over a year, at least.  Mark has his own manufacturer.
Click to expand...


First off what does it matter who makes his pen kits?  The fact that SOMEONE is making them is all that SHOULD matter and we can order them.  Also what matters is quality.


----------



## Lenny

I wish I could purchase the really nice components for under $10.
I also wish I could sublet to a supermodel.
Pretty sure neither of those wishes will come true.

I think the real question is, can I find the right niche. The combination of materials and quality of both components and finish, whereby the pen will sell at a price that will yield a return on my investment that is suitable to me. This has many more factors than just the quality and cost of the components. If your components cost $50 and you sell the pen for $250-$300, you may not mind ordering more at that price.
Of course not every area has a market for a $300 pen. That's a whole other topic.

You really have to know your abilities and honestly critique your pens. If all you can sell is a slimline for the cost of material perhaps you need to re-evaluate and ask yourself "why".


----------



## Smitty37

*



First off what does it matter who makes his pen kits? The fact that SOMEONE is making them is all that SHOULD matter and we can order them. Also what matters is quality.
		
Click to expand...

* Learn to recognize a little chain jerking between friends Ed. It is perfectly ok to do that and if you don't like it you can always skip the post. The :biggrin: should have told you and everyone else that Roy was having a little fun.


----------



## NewLondon88

redbulldog said:


> The bashing serves NO purpose in my book. It is used only for self gratification as far as I am concerned, just my own opinion, so I will leave now!



Wow!! 

He wasn't  bashing the kits, he was talking about 'kit bashing'. That means
you take parts from different kits and mix them together. We used to do it
 with model cars when I was a kid. (and when my dad was a kid) Nothing 
self gratifying about it and it certainly DOES serve a purpose.. otherwise the 
 manufacturers wouldn't be doing it!!


----------



## edstreet

OKLAHOMAN said:


> Ed, how much RESEARCH did you put into this statement:biggrin:  you told me and the rest of the forum you always research your statements before making them here is your direct quote and to make sure all saw it you did it in red.
> Sorry Roy, I ALWAYS do research before making a statement!!
> Mark still uses Lazerlines and that's a fact....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ed4copies said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am quite certain Constant (Lazerlinez) is no longer making Mark's (Marksman) pens-for over a year, at least.  Mark has his own manufacturer.
Click to expand...


Also WHICH Ed are you asking?  There are THREE posting in here.


----------



## NewLondon88

Not so long ago I went to Providence with a few kits and some drawings to talk
with a manufacturer. He gave me the tour, showed me the CNC lathes, mills, 
the plating shop, the screw machines the vulcanizers, the spin casters, the lost
wax casting station, the tumblers etc. etc. And he looked over the drawings and
the kits. He said everything could be produced there, from start to finish. When we 
talked about platings, he told me that there was so little gold on the kits that it
wouldn't have much effect on the prices. But he did compare the slimline and the Jr Emperor. He told me that the Jr Emp was certainly a better kit, but not all that high quality. We looked under high magnification and it was surprising. But he did tell me that there were more parts and more metal, more work. The Jr. Emperor would probably cost about 4x as much as the slimline to produce. (before plating)
Now if you get into ti gold (no gold in it, but a more expensive process) then that would bump the cost significantly. But the gold was pennies per kit. (at the time,
gold was slightly over $1k / oz)


----------



## Dan Hintz

edstreet said:


> OKLAHOMAN said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ed, how much RESEARCH did you put into this statement:biggrin:  you told me and the rest of the forum you always research your statements before making them here is your direct quote and to make sure all saw it you did it in red.
> Sorry Roy, I ALWAYS do research before making a statement!!
> Mark still uses Lazerlines and that's a fact....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ed4copies said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am quite certain Constant (Lazerlinez) is no longer making Mark's (Marksman) pens-for over a year, at least.  Mark has his own manufacturer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Also WHICH Ed are you asking?  There are THREE posting in here.
Click to expand...

He quoted *ed4copies* before making his statement... does he really have to spell it out?


----------



## Smitty37

edstreet said:


> OKLAHOMAN said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ed, how much RESEARCH did you put into this statement:biggrin: you told me and the rest of the forum you always research your statements before making them here is your direct quote and to make sure all saw it you did it in red.
> Sorry Roy, I ALWAYS do research before making a statement!!
> Mark still uses Lazerlines and that's a fact....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ed4copies said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am quite certain Constant (Lazerlinez) is no longer making Mark's (Marksman) pens-for over a year, at least. Mark has his own manufacturer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Also WHICH Ed are you asking? There are THREE posting in here.
Click to expand...

 And everybody who knows anybody here knew which Ed he was asking....btw Ed -- it wasn't you.:biggrin:


----------



## NewLondon88

Smitty37 said:


> edstreet said:
> 
> 
> 
> Also WHICH Ed are you asking? There are THREE posting in here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And everybody who knows anybody here knew which Ed he was asking....btw Ed -- it wasn't you.:biggrin:
Click to expand...


Of course not. It was Ed!


----------



## OKLAHOMAN

NewLondon88 said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> edstreet said:
> 
> 
> 
> Also WHICH Ed are you asking? There are THREE posting in here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And everybody who knows anybody here knew which Ed he was asking....btw Ed -- it wasn't you.:biggrin:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Of course not. It was Ed!
Click to expand...



Nope, it was Ed!


----------



## mredburn

:biggrin:Is this another "whos on first?" thread:biggrin:


----------



## Lenny

mredburn said:


> :biggrin:Is this another "whos on first?" thread:biggrin:




(I can play the straight man).....

I don't know. .....


----------



## avbill

WHat's on First!  and Who's on second!


----------



## mredburn

If Whats on first, and whos on second! then where is ED?


----------



## edstreet

Wow, epic fail you guys.  Seriously learn to read humor.







Post I made it's called epic nested sarcasm.


----------



## Smitty37

Probably to subtile for me....I only have about a 140 IQ these days (IQ unfortunately does decrease with age in most people).


----------



## Smitty37

mredburn said:


> *If Whats on first, and whos on second!* then where is ED?


Well he's not on third either. I don't know is there. Btw Whos on first and Whats on second.


----------



## mredburn

Im confused. TIme for coffee


----------



## Sylvanite

Lenny said:


> mredburn said:
> 
> 
> 
> :biggrin:Is this another "whos on first?" thread:biggrin:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (I can play the straight man).....
> 
> I don't know. .....
Click to expand...


Third base!


----------



## Constant Laubscher

ed4copies said:


> I am quite certain Constant (Lazerlinez) is no longer making Mark's (Marksman) pens-for over a year, at least. Mark has his own manufacturer.


 
Wrong, but Constant is making Mark's (Marksman) kits, and help a lot on the design of the final product. Mostly the on the practical/ machining side of things.


----------



## Lenny

Constant Laubscher said:


> ed4copies said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am quite certain Constant (Lazerlinez) is no longer making Mark's (Marksman) pens-for over a year, at least. Mark has his own manufacturer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong, but Constant is making Mark's (Marksman) kits, and help a lot on the design of the final product. Mostly the on the practical/ machining side of things.
Click to expand...


And how, may I ask, do you know this?  :biggrin::biggrin::wink:


----------



## maxwell_smart007

"*I have decided to pursue a different business model and will be no longer part of Marksman writing instruments.* I will concentrate on the manufacturing of small industrial parts, medical parts and also pen kits and will have something new to show shortly. I have established a new company that will be responsible for all the Swiss Machining.
Competition is always a good thing - Bring prices down and up the quality."
_- from a thread started by Constant, Jan 16, 2012 _

With that in mind, I can see how Ed would think that Constant and Marksman parted ways...I thought that too!


----------



## OKLAHOMAN

Lenny said:


> Constant Laubscher said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ed4copies said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am quite certain Constant (Lazerlinez) is no longer making Mark's (Marksman) pens-for over a year, at least. Mark has his own manufacturer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong, but Constant is making Mark's (Marksman) kits, and help a lot on the design of the final product. Mostly the on the practical/ machining side of things.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And how, may I ask, do you know this? :biggrin::biggrin::wink:
Click to expand...

 
Constant *researched* before posting it and found he indeed was still making them, either that or a lucky guess.:biggrin::wink:


----------



## marksman

I have been following this thread for a while and feel like it is now time to chime in and dispel any myths and rumors...although I think we have gotten a bit off topic. YES, Constant machines the parts for Marksman pen kits and, as he said above, provides practical advice from a machinability standpoint and we even discuss design concepts every now and then. What I'm not sure many of you realize is what goes into "manufacturing" a kit. I can assure you that it is not just machining. There is a tremendous amount of thought, research and development, work and effort that goes into a finished kit, from concept to design to machining to deburring (which you guys complain about a lot) and finally finishing. One flaw in any of the above processes and we, the manufacturer, get reamed by the end user. Sometimes it is a tough position to be in but if we continue to uphold the highest quality standards all will be fine.

The goals and objectives of Marksman Pens is to provide the highest level of quality possible along with innovative designs and parts that make pens that sell. I will tell you that all of the above does not come cheap. We are NOT looking to commoditize the kit market or play the commodity game. We want and will continue to provide what our customers want. This is not a sales pitch so I hope it doesn't get deleted. The question was asked..."why are pen kits so danged expensive?" There is a lot that goes into it. Now let's go make some pens :smile-big:


----------



## Constant Laubscher

Now to get to the high pricing of kits or what is involved in making these parts.

Cost of a complete machine setup with all tooling ready to make parts - $ 200000 + 

Qty plays a very big role in the cost of manufacturing. 

The tooling cost gets divided into large qty orders and the cost per unit goes down.
When buying material the price goes down when you buy in bulk.
Tooling would include Cutter tips/inserts $23 each, drills( x 3) $ 15 - $76, Er16 & ER20 collets( 6 ) $18, Threading tools ID & OD ( 2 )$ $32,  Main spindle Collet $110, Sub spindle Pick off collet $ 110, Guide Bushing collet $ 280.00

Then there is the type of material you are using to make the parts from Brass, 303, 316, 17-4, 304 .... Stainless or other metals. Now these materials that we use in a screw machine has to be within a certain tolerance to be able to hold a certain tolerance. Material that is used is either ground to a specific dimension and tolerance or you get what is called screw machine quality stock. The higher the tolerance the higher the price. 

Then you have the programming of the parts that is time or you can use software that cost ( Partmaker or alike $ 15000.00).

Setup of a new part( have not been run on the machine) to make sure you get the part to match the print and sometimes you need to make changes to the parts. This can take  20 min to couple of hours. 

When making pens all the parts have to work together to make a good looking pen and the problem with this type of manufacturing is that the customer would like to see a complete sample before they want to cut you loose and run the required qty normally a minimum of 250 parts or more.

Most companies will run the parts as per drawing/ print and I can tell you that the complete pen might not turn out the way you want it to be. I would love to just make parts but it does not work that way with pen kits. ( At least until a complete pen is made)

The surface finish is also very important. The better the finish on the part the longer it takes to run and that add cost to the part. You better have a good finish on stainless or you will have a very hard time making it shine.

There is a setup time between different parts, These 7 or 8 axis machines have up to 36 or may be more and different tools, collets and pickoff collets are used for the different parts, also the bar feeder needs to be changed over when a different diameter rod is used. Time to change between parts can be as Little;e as 25 minutes to 4 hours, it all depend what needs to be done.

The typical pen parts made from stainless steel would run from 45 sec to 2.35 minutes per part.

The parts then needs to be cleaned - ultrasonic cleaned ,tumbled (3 cycles) hand polished and then plated if brass is used.

Now for the packaging, refill, spring, mechanism.

All of these things adds up very quickly and when you sell wholesale the price gets doubled. Everyone needs to make there little bit of profit.

That is how a price gets out of have very quickly. At the end I have to look back and see is it all worth the effort and time to just make a $1 or $2 per kit and the answer is no it is not  always worth it.


----------



## edstreet

So how does everyone apply a CA finish here?


----------



## Constant Laubscher

maxwell_smart007 said:


> "*I have decided to pursue a different business model and will be no longer part of Marksman writing instruments.* I will concentrate on the manufacturing of small industrial parts, medical parts and also pen kits and will have something new to show shortly. I have established a new company that will be responsible for all the Swiss Machining.
> Competition is always a good thing - Bring prices down and up the quality."
> _- from a thread started by Constant, Jan 16, 2012 _
> 
> With that in mind, I can see how Ed would think that Constant and Marksman parted ways...I thought that too!


 
Almost 2 years ago a lot can happen.


----------



## edstreet

OKLAHOMAN said:


> Lenny said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Constant Laubscher said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ed4copies said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am quite certain Constant (Lazerlinez) is no longer making Mark's (Marksman) pens-for over a year, at least. Mark has his own manufacturer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong, but Constant is making Mark's (Marksman) kits, and help a lot on the design of the final product. Mostly the on the practical/ machining side of things.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And how, may I ask, do you know this? :biggrin::biggrin::wink:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Constant *researched* before posting it and found he indeed was still making them, either that or a lucky guess.:biggrin::wink:
Click to expand...



Didn't he also quit to and told everyone to stick it where the sun does not shine?  Then 180 and 'gave everyone another chance' ?


----------



## wolftat

Someone should write a book about being perfect, I'm sure it would be a best seller.


----------



## ed4copies

I guess this all proves that statements made a couple years ago don't need to be true today---the world changes and yes, I based my statement on old information.

Even pen production can, apparently, result in strange bedfellows!!

But, in this case I was clearly incorrect---I will be more careful in future belief of what I am told.

I misjudged my source.


----------



## Lenny

I think as pen turners we are very lucky to have the wide range of available components to choose from, slimelines for $3 all the way to American made of the highest quality. The availability of components to choose from is as diverse as are the penturners buying them. 
I imagine some of the old timers who started this hobby back when components (kits) where first becoming available (and were pretty limited) would read this thread and think we have really gotten spoiled!


----------



## Smitty37

wolftat said:


> *Someone should write a book about being perfect, I'm sure it would be a best seller*.


I have not given permission to anyone writing my biography*.....*

* There is and it is....called the Bible. *


----------



## ed4copies

Lenny said:


> I think as pen turners we are very lucky to have the wide range of available components to choose from, slimelines for $3 all the way to American made of the highest quality. The availability of components to choose from is as diverse as are the penturners buying them.
> I imagine some of the old timers who started this hobby back when components (kits) where first becoming available (and were pretty limited) would read this thread and think we have really gotten spoiled!


 

Yes, and especially amazed that no one has mentioned slimlines were about $5 at a minimum (I bought in volume).  NOW, they are under $2 in some cases, quantity of ONE!!  Wish car prices had followed that same "cost curve"!!


----------



## ed4copies

To address one other part of the original question---alternatives???

As a young man, I had two "outlets":  Golf and alcohol.  Golf cost about $100 for a day at the course (not counting the lost ball cost), Alcohol was much cheaper, probably in the $20 a day neighborhood.  I could not find a way to derive ANY income (betting on golf was a COST for me) from either.

When I quit alcohol and started pens---I COULD and DID sell them---the hobby at first broke even, then provided a little pocket change and a weekend change of scenery, living in a hotel.

AND it kept me from the "vegetation field" that TV had become.  TO ME, this strategy was much better than my friends who scheduled weekly meetings with their "therapist".  YMMV, but I hope it is food for thought.

Ed


----------



## Smitty37

I've always thought it was kind of sad that the automobile didn't follow the cost curve of computers.....

Of course without the headaches - like putting on the left turn signal and getting "Are you sure you want to turn left?" or suddenly for no apparent reason just stopping with no indication of why?  Or,  when driving down the Interstate at 70MPH, sending you a message that says the engine has discovered a problem and must close now sorry for any inconvenience this might cause


----------



## Smitty37

Constant Laubscher said:


> Now to get to the high pricing of kits or what is involved in making these parts.


 And, for all of that long list, I am dead certain that you probably forgot a few things.  

I know that it is next to impossible to get a manufacturer to make even 50 or 100 of a new design so you can see it before the production run even if you are willing to pay for it.


----------



## Constant Laubscher

edstreet said:


> OKLAHOMAN said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lenny said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Constant Laubscher said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ed4copies said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am quite certain Constant (Lazerlinez) is no longer making Mark's (Marksman) pens-for over a year, at least. Mark has his own manufacturer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong, but Constant is making Mark's (Marksman) kits, and help a lot on the design of the final product. Mostly the on the practical/ machining side of things.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And how, may I ask, do you know this? :biggrin::biggrin::wink:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Constant *researched* before posting it and found he indeed was still making them, either that or a lucky guess.:biggrin::wink:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Didn't he also quit to and told everyone to stick it where the sun does not shine? Then 180 and 'gave everyone another chance' ?
Click to expand...

 


You are a blatant lier that put words out here that was not said.

This going to far!

This is the copy of the post in 2008

*"I have removed the classified. All the negativity is not good for the IAP and therefore I shall also end my membership with IAP as of today.
I think this is a great forum and I hope everyone who responded so negatively would be glad to hear this and I wish you all good luck."*

I am trying to explain here what it takes to make a pen or parts and you come chime in with your negativity, That was the exact reason why I posted that post in 2008. If you have constructed facts or information it is fine but always to get in peoples character or making untrue statements should stop. 

If the moderators want to remove this post it would be fine but I am sick and tired of these negative character attacking posts from "edstreet"


----------

