# Nib sizing?



## Brian Chislett

Assuming you want to upgrade kit pen with a higher quality nib, how to you work out the size. Numbers, 5,6,7 etc are often quoted. What do these numbers mean? Is there a chart somewhere giving dimensions?
Cheers
Brian


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## TonyL

joining the fray.


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## More4dan

I believe the number is the diameter of the base of the nib in mm.


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## OKLAHOMAN

Actually the # most of the time is the width of the feed at it's largest in MM


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## jalbert

I measured a Jowo #6 feed, and it was 6mm at the base, and 7.2mm at the widest, where it flairs out towards the front.
A #5 Jowo feed measured 5mm in diameter pretty much the whole length. I would be inclined to think that the size of the Jowo's at least, is based on the millimeter measurement of the base of the feed.


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## Carl Fisher

It varies from what I've seen. Some are based on feed size, others are based on the nib size. I've also seen the #6 also referred to as a #35.


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## corgicoupe

OKLAHOMAN said:


> Actually the # most of the time is the width of the feed at it's largest in MM



You suggest the new ClassicNib site, but almost everything is "out of stock", and the distracting spelling errors are too numerous.


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## edstreet

#6 is really a #12
#5 is really a #5.5 

Oh and Robert I am invoking Skitt's law,  also I want to see your store where everything is " in stock ".


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## TonyL

This is digressing quickly. Can we return to the OP's question please?


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## ExcaliburCraftworks

*The New Classic Nib*



corgicoupe said:


> OKLAHOMAN said:
> 
> 
> 
> Actually the # most of the time is the width of the feed at it's largest in MM
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You suggest the new ClassicNib site, but almost everything is "out of stock", and the distracting spelling errors are too numerous.
Click to expand...


While we appreciate your visit to Classic Nib please be advised the new owners (my wife and myself) just took over the website on April 9th and our first goal was to get the site back operational ASAP (Our customers deserved that).  We obtained this goal effective April 22nd just 5 days ago.  When Arizona Silhouette changed hands it took months to accomplish this, we did it in a couple of weeks. As the new owners we are aware of the out of stock items as well as the "distracting spelling errors".  Out of stock items are being ordered and stocks replenished and the website is being poured over page by page to correct grammatical issues.  While we would like to have all of the items replenished immediately please be advised some things we order can take months to get to us.  This is the same with any distributor.  Roy Robaldo did an incredible job owning/operating the Classic Nib for 5 years - one of the reasons he sold was to focus on health issues for he and his lovely wife Dee.  Had some items fallen through the cracks? Undoubtedly.  However Roy placed his family first and if I was in his shoes I would have done the exact same thing. Please feel free to stop by Classic Nib again in the future to see the improvements being made in all of the issues you addressed.  Thank You - THE CLASSIC NIB


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## edstreet

TonyL said:


> This is digressing quickly. Can we return to the OP's question please?



Try adding something intelligent then?  Had that been me post that sentence I would have received several threats by now.  However you are correct and I must again ask, have anything of value to add to he topic?


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## Mr Vic

I've yet to find a fully definitive answer to your question. Typically the #5, #6, #4 refer to the size in conjunction with the feed. Yes Cryptic I know. A # 5 and a #5.5 will theoretically fit the same feed/section. Now the mind blower is that a #8, depending on the manufacturer, will fit their #6 feed. It's just wider at the flair and longer. 

Yuck, clear as Rocky Road Ice Cream in a blender. As long as you use the same source for nib fee/sections as you use for nibs sizing will be consistent. Most of the major kit suppliers use either a #5 or #6 and the replacement nib is pretty consistent. The #6 seems to be the most predominant these days.

If you really want to muddy the waters, most folks referring to nib size are talking about the actual tip that hits the paper.

just my views and what I have learned. Take it with a grain of salt or sodium substitute. Your choice!


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## mark james

A lot of diversity, but interesting stuff.  Have fun.

Fountain Pen Guide Series, Session 1: Nibs, Feeds, and How They Come Together | Pentorium

Tipping Sizes Comparison Page

RichardsPens.com &bull; Pens That Write Right!

Guide to Fountain Pen Nibs: Choosing a Fountain Pen Nib - JetPens.com


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## edstreet

Sigh


None of those links gives what the OP was asking for.  I will have to do it tomorrow when I'm at my desktop.


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## alphageek

This is the best page that I have seen to explain the nib size dilemma: http://www.vintagepens.com/FAQbasics/nib_numbering.shtml

It does a pretty good job of explaining the fun around nib number history in a short read.  It doesn't help the modern pen maker know what works in what, but it gives a good concise description of where the confusion came from.


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## Brian Chislett

Gentlemen, fellow pen turners, thank's for all the comments. I think I need to lie down in a darkened room and think about it all. The fountain pen has been with us for over 100 years, we would have thought that "Nib Sizing" would have been sorted out long ago. I am pleased that I am not as dumb as I thought I was when asking the question in the first place, I thought it must be common knowledge. Thanks a million.
Cheers

Brian


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## edstreet

Brian Chislett said:


> Assuming you want to upgrade kit pen with a higher quality nib, how to you work out the size. Numbers, 5,6,7 etc are often quoted. What do these numbers mean? Is there a chart somewhere giving dimensions?
> Cheers
> Brian



This should help you out greatly.

#5 nibs: length: 2.5cm, shoulder width: 7mm,  base width: 5mm,   fits a 5mm feed

#5.5 nibs: length: 2.6cm,  shoulder width: 7mm,  base width: 5mm,  fits a 5mm feed

#35 nibs (also known as #6 and #12): length: 3.5cm,  shoulder width: 9mm,  base width: 6.3mm,  fits a 6.3mm feed

#8 nibs: length: 2.7cm,  shoulder width: 8mm,  base width: 6mm,  fits a 6.3mm feed

As I have said previous, pen kits use either a #5.5 or a #6.  #6 is also know as a #35 or a #12 depending on source.  

The majority of commercial fountain pens today uses a #6 nib.  There are many who do indeed make their own nib sizes.


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## corgicoupe

Brian Chislett said:


> Assuming you want to upgrade kit pen with a higher quality nib, how to you work out the size. Numbers, 5,6,7 etc are often quoted. What do these numbers mean? Is there a chart somewhere giving dimensions?
> Cheers
> Brian



I don't think upgrading to a different size nib is a trivial matter. When I bought an Aaron component set back in mid March, because I wanted to make a pen with a #6 nib,  I recall Roy explaining in some detail all the design changes that were required to fit that nib into what I believe was a Jr Gent sized pen kit.


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## jttheclockman

I know I am jumping into an area I know very very very little about. But from what I have read over time about fountain pens it is not only the size of the nib but the materials it is made from, the angles it is bent, the size of the tines, the spacing and that is why it is such a exact field when it comes to tuning nibs for the purist. Different companies may call a #5 nib differently than another company. So basically what I am saying you need to read up on all aspects of fountain pens and become an informed seller or maker. 

I believe the links provided by a couple members in this thread are great examples of a good starting point. They should be commended for taking the time to look these up and provide them. 

I know Brian and TonyL are trying to get into the fountain pen arena and it is good that there are those that can help. I only wish I can be of help but this is a field that I choose not to go because it does take some dedication and time to acquire all this knowledge to be able to sell a product that you can talk shop about. Good luck to all.


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## corgicoupe

I should have said that I bought the Aaron from ClassicNib just before it changed owners, and the Roy mentioned was Roy Robaldo.  The #6 nib adds class to the pen, I've found the #5 nibs on the Jr Gent and the Woodcraft Kojent kits to be very satisfactory.


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## edstreet

One thing overlooked by everyone, or perhaps it's the white elephant in the room...  "higher quality nib" has been overlooked up to this post.

Having said that I have brought up a good number of times, on this forum, that Dayacom uses Jowo nibs.  They have for a hefty number of years now.  'upgrades' for nibs could be done for a number of reasons.  One of those reasons is plating color to match the blank or flow with something else, i.e. steel, 2 tone, black Ti, Ruthenium and the dozen other plating types you can get on nibs today.  As for 'quality' goes some will have you believe that heritance nibs are 'higher quality' which is simply untrue.  They are made in the same factory, same plant, same company as the rest of Jowo products, including the ones that ships with the Aarons from Classic Nib.

When someone orders custom nibs (i.e. heritance) from either Bock or Jowo they are incurred with a good hefty $20,000 minimum order.  In order to sell the product many will list them as "high quality upgrades" and tend to down play the stock nib; disregarding the fact that both nibs are made by the same company, same labor force, same factory, same materials and same manufacturing methods..

One thing that is almost always overlooked when any discussion of 'quality' comes up here is the subject of 'quality' is highly subjective to the application.  Meaning what may be quality for one task could very well not be quality for another task.

Consider the attachments that I have added...


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## corgicoupe

Ed brings up a very good point in his last paragraph...quality of a nib is very, very subjective. Spend some time on the fountain pen network, especially in the nibs & tines forum to see how folks differ on what is a quality nib. It's almost like reading what wine connoisseurs write about wines. If it writes smoothly, doesn't skip, and doesn't dry out, it's probably a quality nib. I think a number of kits come with nibs made by Jowo,  and they are quality nibs.


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## TonyL

Thanks for all of the posts and links. I know more than I did only a few days ago.


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## Joey-Nieves

So now that the subject is quality, how does one identify a quality nib other than the price?
After reading and following other discussions, It seems that the iridium tip is a start, followed by flexibility and smoothness. The last two can be tinkered with. 

So the question is can one turn a nib, like the ones pictured in Ed's post into a quality nib? would this be acceptable?

A while back someone posted about the Spencerian nib, seems to be a great favorite among the FP enthusiasts, but little Information is out there as to how to customize the nibs.  This video https://youtu.be/pRebkWHsHC0 shows a namiki pen with the modification made to it.

Now I agree With Ed about some nibs being made by the same people, but as with all manufacturers Building specs and tolerances will vary, depending on the order.  While some may market the same product with another name, others will order different specifications for that product.  Personally I've found the heritance nib to be smoother, this could be because of additional grinding when being finished.


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## edstreet

After talking extensively with Linda Kennedy about nibs, nib quality, nib metal, bid design and nib grinding I can say that yes you can turn any ugly duckling into a graceful swan, the question remains is how much work are you willing to spend to make that happen. How much is your time worth.  For most the answer is two fold. 1) not skilled enough to pull off the job and 2) to busy doing other things to do the full job when a nib swap out is easier.  

I can tell you to that a Heritance nib grinds exactly like a Jowo nib, as does a dayacom branded nib. The only valid point that could be given is metal flow when stamped and yes the Heritance nibs were a custom run stamped order.   As for ink flow the underside drag, tine width, how clean the tines are and he feed to nib fit ratio makes the difference.


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## edstreet

Also worth while to note the Spencerian usage requires a very high ink flow and modern feeds are often unable to deliver that volume. Yet even still most attention is focused upon the nib.


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## darrin1200

I have found that for me, the difficulty with nibs is a consistancy issue. I recently went through my stash of spare nibs looking for a fine one. I found absolutely no consistancy in the size.  

To explain. Almost all the kit nibs I have recieved, have not been marked for size, but whenever I swaped in an upgrade I would put the kit nib in a package. I have also ordered some daycom replacement #5 nibs, specificly in fine and medium. I kept these in there own marked bags for inventory control. 

In examining the swapped nibs, I ended up with three distinctive sizes. These were visually different, I did not need a micrometer to see the difference. When I checked my marked bag of fine nibs, I found two distinct size differences. In the bag of mediums I also found two sizes. When I compared all three groups together, there was four distinct sizes. This is what I mean by inconsistancy. 

I did the same comparison with my herritance fine and medium nibs, and found the consistancy was much better. There was a very distinct difference between fine and medium. Among the fine nibs I could see a slight difference in a close side by side comparrison.

The same sort of visualcomparrison of my unmarked Jowo nibs from MeisterNib, I found no visual differences amongst each size.

Now I am not a master tuner. I have never been taught how to tune, but I know a lot of the theory and generaly tweek until I'm happy. In other words, it takes me quite a lot of fiddling with any nib. That said, I have made nibs from all three groups write like butter. However, I have only found untuneable nibs, in the kit catagory.

In manufacturing, there are many areas that can be adjusted for cost control. Plating thickness, nib tiping dimensions, stamping or engraving as well as many other aspects. There is also the quality control. What may be unacceptable deviation from spec for one client easily falls within the requirements of another.

This is all just my personal observations and opinions, given in the spirit of proffesional discussion. Its always nice to hear the opinons of my colleagues and peers.

Here are some good articles from Edison Pen Co.
http://edisonpen.com/articles-2


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## edstreet

Darrin, Interesting enough to note the difference between 'medium' and 'fine' is about 0.1mm - 0.2mm of the width of the tip, that's the ball at the end of the tines.  The only way to really do that is with a caliper, you can not eyeball it.


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## darrin1200

edstreet said:


> Darrin, Interesting enough to note the difference between 'medium' and 'fine' is about 0.1mm - 0.2mm of the width of the tip, that's the ball at the end of the tines.  The only way to really do that is with a caliper, you can not eyeball it.



I should have also stated that by visual comparison I used 25x loop.


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