# Life after CA



## galoot_loves_tools

I had some indications that I might be getting sensitized to CA (burning sinuses) and yep, I have been using a respirator and gloves. I was pretty bummed out since CA gave me a hard and fast-curing finish.

Based on a couple of posts here on IAP, I tried dipping the blanks in Enduro. I dipped them twice, reversing the blank on the second dip. I waited until the blank was just slightly tacky (based on the finish on the bushing) between dips. I did not sand between dips. Wow, that was easy. I set the blanks overnight on the portable oil-filled radiator in my den and was able to micromesh the few dust specks and polish the blanks with Hut's plastic polish (at low speed on my Shopsmith) the next evening. Here is one of the pens I recently did for a church craft show fundraiser. 







This system is practically without fumes of any sort and much easier to use - no respirator required.


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## LarryDNJR

Very nice looking.  I may have to try something other than CA myself.  Something has been giving me a reaction on my hands/arms and it may be from sanding the ca.


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## galoot_loves_tools

LarryDNJR said:


> Very nice looking.  I may have to try something other than CA myself.  Something has been giving me a reaction on my hands/arms and it may be from sanding the ca.



I have been told that CA dust can cause a allergic reaction in sensitive individuals, another reason I started to get concerned. The dipped Enduro blanks are almost glass smooth, there is almost no sanding involved, but even so I have not read that cured poly is allergenic.


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## alphageek

That looks great.   If you wouldn't mind sharing, I'm a little confused by some of your dip comments.   Questions:

You said dip twice, based on tacky finish on the bushings - You dip including the bushings?  On a mandrel or not?

What about finish inside the tube then?

Whats your pre-dip stop point?   Sand to ??   Micromesh??

Thanks for any info you share!


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## galoot_loves_tools

alphageek said:


> That looks great.   If you wouldn't mind sharing, I'm a little confused by some of your dip comments.   Questions:
> 
> You said dip twice, based on tacky finish on the bushings - You dip including the bushings?  On a mandrel or not?
> 
> What about finish inside the tube then?
> 
> Whats your pre-dip stop point?   Sand to ??   Micromesh??
> 
> Thanks for any info you share!



I sanded the blanks to 600 grit and applied 3 coats of Zinnser Sealcoat (actually this is dewaxed shellac) on the blanks with about 10 to 30 minutes between coats. I let them dry for a at least a couple of hours, until the shellac sanded to a powder, and sanded them with 600 grit paper being careful not to cut through the sealer. It's important to dip with the original bushings (or ones you make) that are very close in diameter to the blank so that the finish flows evenly off of the blank. I dipped with the blank on the bushings on a threaded 1/4x20 threaded rod. The bushings were held on by nuts and tightened with finger pressure. The lower nut was just threaded on, the rod end did not protrude, and I rested the rod plus nuts on the lower nut when drying. I dipped the rod plus bushings into the Enduro, in the can, very slowly, until the top bushing was half submerged. The lower nut kept the finish out of the tube, I did not have to do any clean-up in the tube afterward. 

To sand down the few dust nits on the dry blanks, I used nail buffing pads, the pink and white ones that some drugstores and Sally's Beauty Supply sell. The pink side is coarser, but still roughly equal to about 2000/2500 grit paper. The white side is maybe a little coarser than the gray micromesh. I sanded just the nits with the pink side, polished a bit on the white side, followed by gray micromesh and then Huts plastic polish. Took about 5 minutes per blank. Some of the blanks were dust free, those I just gave a quick pass with the white/gray micromesh and plastic polish. 

I went out yesterday and bought some threaded stove bolts of different lengths and some nylon nuts. I am constructing a rack I can place on the bench and radiator where I can hang the blanks since it is risking fate to have them just sitting on the lower nuts while drying. No kids or pets in the house but still...

Hope this helps.


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## aggromere

that's a way cool idea.  I know they use that on pool cue finishing but I believe they spray it on, I think dipping might be better.  thanks for the tip.


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## gallianp

Where was the Enduro purchased?  What is the stuff?


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## Atherton Pens

Looks like General Finishes makes Enduro:
http://www.generalfinishes.com/

Here's a link to Enduro on Rockler's site:
http://www.rockler.com/search_results.cfm?srch=usr&filter=Enduro&submit.x=12&submit.y=10

I'm definitely going to give this a try!


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## mach9

My brother recently bought (off of E-Bay) a small gear reduction motor that is used to slowly turn fishing rods after you epoxy on new guide rings. Keeping the rod rotating slowly, about 12 rpm I think, keeps the epoxy from running to one side of the rod until it is dry. The first thing that popped in my head when I saw it was using it to finish pens. I may have to "borrow" it and give it a try. They're plentiful and relatively cheap on E-Bay and available in different RPM ratings as well. Just a thought.


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## socdad

I use an old rotisserie motor.


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## robutacion

mach9 said:


> My brother recently bought (off of E-Bay) a small gear reduction motor that is used to slowly turn fishing rods after you epoxy on new guide rings. Keeping the rod rotating slowly, about 12 rpm I think, keeps the epoxy from running to one side of the rod until it is dry. The first thing that popped in my head when I saw it was using it to finish pens. I may have to "borrow" it and give it a try. They're plentiful and relatively cheap on E-Bay and available in different RPM ratings as well. Just a thought.



Interesting that you mention those slow motors, I have been looking for 2 of them for a while, one is for me the other for a mate that makes knifes.  We both like to use Liquid Glass also known as Liquid gloss, a 2 part varnish that is the hardest thing you can put in any surface, gloss as glass but and unless you use it in perfectly level surfaces it runs like mad.  The stuff is self-levelling and requires about 30 minutes in 20C temperature to set enough to not run, curing is 7 days.

I have used this stuff on some pens and is nearly impossible to get it right, it needs something that keeps the barrel turning very slowly and in the horizontal position.  Buy hand is not impossible, but keep turning at the same speed and position by hand for 30 minutes per barrel, does not only get your arms/hands tired but, drives you mad, is like watching grass grow...!!!

Could you please send me a couple of links of these motors on eBay, please...???

Cheers
George


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## galoot_loves_tools

mach9 said:


> My brother recently bought (off of E-Bay) a small gear reduction motor that is used to slowly turn fishing rods after you epoxy on new guide rings. Keeping the rod rotating slowly, about 12 rpm I think, keeps the epoxy from running to one side of the rod until it is dry. The first thing that popped in my head when I saw it was using it to finish pens. I may have to "borrow" it and give it a try. They're plentiful and relatively cheap on E-Bay and available in different RPM ratings as well. Just a thought.



You could go the motor route, I just reversed the blanks end-for-end between coats and let them dry vertically.


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## PaulDoug

The rotisserie sounds good.  If you use the rotisserie shaft with the prongs that you stick in a chicken to hold it on you could put several blanks on it at once (figure a way to fasten them on the prongs).  I tried the dip method once but didn't succeed but will give it another try one of these days.  I'd like to get good at it because I get a little tired of dealing with CA.  The biggest drawback to the dipping is the slow drying in my opinion.  Time for dust to settle. I think if I got into it I would build a little something to put them in as they dried.  I've also wondered if maybe dipping and than into a pressure pot would hold the finish in place while it dried. I don't know what affect that would have.


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## socdad

This link shows a rotisserie system, used for fishing lures’. The same concept could be adapted for pens / knives …

http://www.ohiogamefishing.com/community/showthread.php?t=112135&highlight=rotisserie

(post #1 shows a good photo)


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## Jerryconn

galoot_loves_tools said:


> I sanded the blanks to 600 grit and applied 3 coats of Zinnser Sealcoat (actually this is dewaxed shellac) on the blanks with about 10 to 30 minutes between coats. I let them dry for a at least a couple of hours, until the shellac sanded to a powder, and sanded them with 600 grit paper being careful not to cut through the sealer. It's important to dip with the original bushings (or ones you make) that are very close in diameter to the blank so that the finish flows evenly off of the blank. I dipped with the blank on the bushings on a threaded 1/4x20 threaded rod. The bushings were held on by nuts and tightened with finger pressure. The lower nut was just threaded on, the rod end did not protrude, and I rested the rod plus nuts on the lower nut when drying. I dipped the rod plus bushings into the Enduro, in the can, very slowly, until the top bushing was half submerged. The lower nut kept the finish out of the tube, I did not have to do any clean-up in the tube afterward.
> 
> To sand down the few dust nits on the dry blanks, I used nail buffing pads, the pink and white ones that some drugstores and Sally's Beauty Supply sell. The pink side is coarser, but still roughly equal to about 2000/2500 grit paper. The white side is maybe a little coarser than the gray micromesh. I sanded just the nits with the pink side, polished a bit on the white side, followed by gray micromesh and then Huts plastic polish. Took about 5 minutes per blank. Some of the blanks were dust free, those I just gave a quick pass with the white/gray micromesh and plastic polish.
> 
> I went out yesterday and bought some threaded stove bolts of different lengths and some nylon nuts. I am constructing a rack I can place on the bench and radiator where I can hang the blanks since it is risking fate to have them just sitting on the lower nuts while drying. No kids or pets in the house but still...
> 
> Hope this helps.



I was curious why you did not use the sanding sealer made by General Finishes?


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## Boz

Did you use the urathane product or the water based?
I have been using polyurathane for some time but lately I have had some failures on some woods the finish never fully dries and stays tacky.


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## Wildman

De-waxed shellac pretty good sanding sealer under most water based poly products. Problems could arise if using alcohol dye or stain on wood first. 

Zinnser lot cheaper than Enduro sanding sealer and just as good.


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## Wildman

A tacky finish caused by old or contaminated finish, temp & humidity, too thick coat applied, and if wood is oily.


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## mach9

Here is one. There are a bunch of them: 
http://cgi.ebay.com/12-RPM-ROD-DRYI...053?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item255f4e2245


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## Padre

Wow, a nice finish.  Where did you get your Enduro?  I know Woodcraft sells it, but in tiny little bottles.


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## galoot_loves_tools

Padre said:


> Wow, a nice finish.  Where did you get your Enduro?  I know Woodcraft sells it, but in tiny little bottles.



I bought the Enduro-Var at Woodcraft in the pint container - this should be enough for a LOT of blanks since there is not much waste to the method. This is a water based varnish. I used Zinsser SealCoat because Woodcraft did not have the sealer when I bought the varnish and I have had good success with SealCoat and dewaxed shellac under water based poly finishes, including General Finishes High Performance Polyurethane. I did a pen for my sister with the High Performance poly where I sealed the blank with SealCoat. A year later she dug it out of the bottom of her purse when I asked how the finish was holding up. The chrome and black enamel on that Sierra were nicked up from keys and other crap in that purse but the finish looked pretty good.


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## toolcrazy

LarryDNJR said:


> Very nice looking.  I may have to try something other than CA myself.  Something has been giving me a reaction on my hands/arms and it may be from sanding the ca.



You may want to switch to wet sanding CA. I haven't dry sanded CA in, like, forever. I wet sand all my acrylics, too. I leave my MM in a tray of water at all times so it is ready.


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## BigguyZ

If you applied a satin water-based finish, and then buffed, would you still have a high gloss finish?


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## Wildman

You can take a high gloss finish to semi gloss or satin finish not the other way around. 

 If you want a high gloss finish use high gloss!

High gloss finishes have more solids, in them, semi gloss and satin have less.


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## galoot_loves_tools

Wildman said:


> You can take a high gloss finish to semi gloss or satin finish not the other way around.
> 
> If you want a high gloss finish use high gloss!
> 
> High gloss finishes have more solids, in them, semi gloss and satin have less.



Yep. The Enduro gloss formulation is high gloss.


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## JerrySambrook

Wildman said:


> De-waxed shellac pretty good sanding sealer under most water based poly products. Problems could arise if using alcohol dye or stain on wood first.
> 
> Zinnser lot cheaper than Enduro sanding sealer and just as good.



If you let the alcohol evaporate for 24 hours, then you should not have an issue with the shellac doing anything to the dyes.
Better yet, use some thinned shellac with the dye in it instead.

Chip
Woodcraft, at least in w. spfld has the larger cans. Come on up on Saturday (I will be demoing skews)


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## nx95240

just bought some  of this and hope it turn out as good as your pen..


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## dogcatcher

galoot_loves_tools said:


> This system is practically without fumes of any sort and much easier to use - no respirator required.



Just because you can not smell it does not mean there are no harmful fumes.  Be sure and read all directions, and the MSDS documents.  Even the "stuff" you cannot smell can kill you.


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## galoot_loves_tools

dogcatcher said:


> galoot_loves_tools said:
> 
> 
> 
> This system is practically without fumes of any sort and much easier to use - no respirator required.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just because you can not smell it does not mean there are no harmful fumes.  Be sure and read all directions, and the MSDS documents.  Even the "stuff" you cannot smell can kill you.
Click to expand...


This is a very low VOC varnish. I'm not that worried. It is a good idea to read the MSDS for a finishing product, however.


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## BigguyZ

I have 3 long clicks that have about 6 coats of Enduro that I applied with a foam brush.  I plan on polishing them tonight and see how it turns out.  So far, I noticed that it doesn't fill pores very well.  I'm not sure how this will translate, but we'll see.

I'm looking forward to al alternative to CA though...


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## jimbob91577

So how do you clean the Enduro off of the bushings?  I assume you have to let the finish cure while the bushings and blank are still together.  Is there some sort of solvent for it?


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## Wildman

If you do not have sanding sealer, pour some Enduro in small cup and thin with water.  Light sanding after first sealing coat takes care of raised grain. May or may not sand after second coat of sealer.  I have had to use three coats of thinned sealer to get blank right.   I used Miniwax polycrylic.

When I dip blanks use a piece of wire and drilled dowels between blanks instead of bushings.  Easier to hang over waste cup.


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## galoot_loves_tools

jimbob91577 said:


> So how do you clean the Enduro off of the bushings?  I assume you have to let the finish cure while the bushings and blank are still together.  Is there some sort of solvent for it?



I use one of the water-based 'safer' strippers like Parks Pro II. I put the bushings and the stripper in a small jar - suitably labeled as stripper. I fish the bushings out with tweezers and re-use the stripper.


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## BigguyZ

OK, so I got a pint of Enduro and decided to give it a try...  3 wood blanks- a hybrid I got in a trade, cherry burl, and Florida Black Mangrove.  I coated them with a foam brush and added maybe 6 or 7 coats with at least 3-4 hours in between in front of a ceramic space heater.

After that, I sanded down and went through my usual micromesh/ polish routine.

I have to say, it didn't take much of a shine.  And it was spotty a bit.  Now it looked good, and it looked more "natural" than CA and it was good for what I was looking for.  But if a customer is looking for that smooth as glass finish, this isn't it.

I'll try dipping, but I need the supplies to try it.  Also, the long click is too long to submerge into a pint can...

Anyone else find the enduro hard to get a high gloss shine with?


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## galoot_loves_tools

BigguyZ said:


> OK, so I got a pint of Enduro and decided to give it a try...  3 wood blanks- a hybrid I got in a trade, cherry burl, and Florida Black Mangrove.  I coated them with a foam brush and added maybe 6 or 7 coats with at least 3-4 hours in between in front of a ceramic space heater.
> 
> After that, I sanded down and went through my usual micromesh/ polish routine.
> 
> I have to say, it didn't take much of a shine.  And it was spotty a bit.  Now it looked good, and it looked more "natural" than CA and it was good for what I was looking for.  But if a customer is looking for that smooth as glass finish, this isn't it.
> 
> I'll try dipping, but I need the supplies to try it.  Also, the long click is too long to submerge into a pint can...
> 
> Anyone else find the enduro hard to get a high gloss shine with?



With that many coats, you should try letting the blank sit for several days until it hardens sufficiently for polishing. The blanks that I dipped came out like glass. When I used water-based poly and brushed it, I found that a small painting detail pad gave the best results with the fewest bubbles, etc..

For dipping longer blanks, look around for a narrower, taller container such as a 12 oz jelly jar like the ones that Polaner jam come in or try a section of PVC tube with an end cap on it.


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## BigguyZ

When you dipped, how did you seal the inside of the tube to prevent that frm being finished?


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## snyiper

I would think plumbers putty would work.


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## galoot_loves_tools

BigguyZ said:


> When you dipped, how did you seal the inside of the tube to prevent that frm being finished?



I dipped with the blank on the bushings, the bushings and blank were on a 1/4" threaded rod with nuts above and below the bushings and threaded to finger tightness, I did not use a wrench. The nuts were enough to prevent the Enduro from getting inside the tube.


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## galoot_loves_tools

*It was Russ...*

I have been trying to track down the post that got me started on experimenting with dipping Enduro, and wouldn't you know it was a post from Russ Fairfield.

We have lost a great one, I learned a lot from his web site and his posts here at IAP. So, I will dedicate my latest Enduro finished pen to his memory, cherry wood from the camp where I met my wife, on a rhodium Executive:


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## monark88

yes, i used this as a carry over from rod building. A 6 rpm motor is just fine also. You can make a small chuck to hold the threaded rod from a pvc "joint" thing (can't remember correct description) and then use rubber bands to hold the rod in place.
Russ


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## monark88

Yep, thats the chuck I was trying to explain.


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