# Review Your Profile, Please



## wdcav1952 (Oct 18, 2008)

There have been a lot of postings lately about qualifications, whether it was about group buys, local chapters, logos, and other subjects that slip my mind at the moment.

I have reviewed a fair number of profiles, and many of you still have not chosen to tell the group much about you.  I have some trouble with wanting to share things with those who choose not to share at least a name with the group.  Take a little time and let the rest of us know a first name, city and state.  In the case of members outside of the US, the same information is helpful.

Very few of us are so important that telling a name, city and state will endanger our safety. :wink:

If this is poorly worded, I am watching the LSU/ South Carolina game, and the shade of Eagle keeps messing with my keyboard!


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## TBone (Oct 18, 2008)

Well they just tied it up, that ought to make you feel better. Go Purple and Gold.    :biggrin:


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## wolftat (Oct 18, 2008)

Sound Tigers won their first home game of the season so I'm happy.


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## workinforwood (Oct 19, 2008)

I can't share my name and location because I am in the witness protection plan for witnessing a mass pen counterfitting  ring and thus fear for my life that I may be stabbed to death with a .5 mm lead pencil!


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## altaciii (Oct 19, 2008)

Here, here, well put Cav.  I have tried looking at profiles at times and its just a tad bit annoying trying to converse with someone and I don't even know their name.


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## Daniel (Oct 19, 2008)

Jeff, that ring wouldn't be known more widely by the name of Bic  would it?


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## marcruby (Oct 19, 2008)

It seems to me that AAW tried the same thing lately and stirred up a small tempest.  I'm pretty open about name and location but a lot of people prefer to protect themselves whether the fears are merited or not.  I think life is simpler if we respect those individual choices.

Marc



wdcav1952 said:


> Very few of us are so important that telling a name, city and state will endanger our safety.


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## wdcav1952 (Oct 19, 2008)

Marc, you raise an excellent point. One of my assistants will not use on line banking and prefers to hand deliver her bill payments whenever possible.  I must admit it disturbed her a bit when I pointed out that her bank maintained her records on line.

Of course, I did not recommend this as a condition of membership, and would never do so.  I respect a member's right to privacy if they so wish.  However, they in turn should respect my right not to respond to postings by someone who wishes to remain anonymous and thus, in my opinion, not a full member of the IAP family.


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## nava1uni (Oct 19, 2008)

One could just post their first name.  I also find it difficult to converse with the faceless.


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## NewLondon88 (Oct 19, 2008)

wdcav1952 said:


> I respect a member's right to privacy if they so wish.  However, they in turn should respect my right not to respond to postings by someone who wishes to remain anonymous and thus, in my opinion, not a full member of the IAP family.



This would have sounded so much better if you had stopped at the word
'anonymous'.

(in my opinion)


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## tipsteve (Oct 19, 2008)

All right, all right, all ready!!  I'll come out of the shadows.  Steve's the name.


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## airrat (Oct 19, 2008)

Since joining this forum I have made numerous friends around the world. When I posted about finding out about Kelly's cancer I got not one but 3 phone calls out of the blue wishing her well.  I received many many emails offering support, asking to help, OFFERING us a place to stay, food, company at the hospital  in Houston from people I only knew online.  A couple of fund raisers were held to help us out, some members didn't wait for the fund raisers.   I have been away alot lately and when I do not make an appearance online I receive a couple emails "reminding" me my IAP family is still here.

I get emails from people sharing ideas and questions, I also send out emails with questions.   With the local chapters and us meeting each other in our local cities or even when we travel meeting up with another turner, this site is a "family" of sort.  Look at how we help each other out, fight with each other and even make up (most of the time).   I do not see why someone would be fearful of at least putting their first name in and/or city and state.

I did however, had a hard time responding to an email that someone did not at least put their first name in as well as I could not look up their name in their profile.  Why should I respond to that email if they are not going to have enough respect/etiquette to introduce themselves.


Sorry if someone one thinks this post is a little emotional, but I have come to believe in the owner and members of this site.  I have seen them do more to help each other out then I see from people I work with and see face to face everyday.


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## gerryr (Oct 19, 2008)

I agree completely with Cav and Tom.  There is no reason for anyone to not let the rest of us know their name.  I don't tend to be very interested in responding to someone who wants to hide their identity.  If someone isn't willing to tell us at least their name, why should we offer any advice.

My opinion and it is worth just what you paid for it.:wink:


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## Rifleman1776 (Oct 20, 2008)

wdcav1952 said:


> Marc, you raise an excellent point. One of my assistants will not use on line banking and prefers to hand deliver her bill payments whenever possible.  I must admit it disturbed her a bit when I pointed out that her bank maintained her records on line.
> 
> Of course, I did not recommend this as a condition of membership, and would never do so.  I respect a member's right to privacy if they so wish.  However, they in turn should respect my right not to respond to postings by someone who wishes to remain anonymous and thus, in my opinion, not a full member of the IAP family.



A fine, and successful, woodworking forum I belong to REQUIRES a real name be used at all times and that e-mail addresses be from an ISP and not Hotmail, Yahoo, etc. Everything is transparent and the system works. Mainly it keeps out the 40 year old juveniles and bad mouthing that, inevitably, comes with anonymity.
Personally, I prefer a real name and knowing where the member lives. It makes the communication more personal and fun.


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## jleiwig (Oct 20, 2008)

I don't think that anyone is afraid of sharing with IAP members, more afraid of the trolls that can key in on a person from a forum and next thing you know you're on all kinds of spam lists or such.  Online forums are a great place for trolls to pick up fodder for email spam lists or marketing lists.


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## VisExp (Oct 20, 2008)

Rifleman1776 said:


> Mainly it keeps out the 40 year old juveniles.


 
Sometimes those 40 year old juveniles will just give there real name and sneak in anyway :wink: :biggrin:


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## TellicoTurning (Oct 20, 2008)

Rifleman1776 said:


> A fine, and successful, woodworking forum I belong to REQUIRES a real name be used at all times and that e-mail addresses be from an ISP and not Hotmail, Yahoo, etc. Everything is transparent and the system works. Mainly it keeps out the 40 year old juveniles and bad mouthing that, inevitably, comes with anonymity.
> Personally, I prefer a real name and knowing where the member lives. It makes the communication more personal and fun.



I belong to the same forum and haven't found it to cause any problems.. I signed up here under a pseudonym, but show my name and location... thinking I may change sign in to show actual name.

I like having a name to talk to..


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## Daniel (Oct 20, 2008)

I like to have at least a name that sounds like a name to address people with. It has more to do with my comfort and I find myself deciding not to respond to some posts if I have to address the reply to lumbertorturer or something like that. Although most of us know how safe and friendly this group is, I don't think it can be axpected of everyone to trust that. I am however completely ready to adopt Lou's list of requirments for my group buys. It is real hard to contact people even if they do have an e-mail listed. seems they end up in spam mail a lot anymore


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## wdcav1952 (Oct 20, 2008)

jleiwig said:


> I don't think that anyone is afraid of sharing with IAP members, more afraid of the trolls that can key in on a person from a forum and next thing you know you're on all kinds of spam lists or such.  Online forums are a great place for trolls to pick up fodder for email spam lists or marketing lists.



Dear ?,

It has be recommended for as long as I have been a member here that one should not post email addresses in an open forum.


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## BobBurt (Oct 20, 2008)

I agree Cav. Also another suggestion, if you have pictures of your work posted....update the descriptions and info

Thanks


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## Mudder (Oct 20, 2008)

wdcav1952 said:


> Very few of us are so important that telling a name, city and state will endanger our safety. :wink:




Ahhh, 

But what if you are in the witness protection program?

Ifin I tells ya where I live I'll have to erase your mind with my laser pen :tongue:


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## DocStram (Oct 20, 2008)

I'm with Cav on this one.  I'd like to see names and locations.


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## jeff (Oct 20, 2008)

jleiwig said:


> I don't think that anyone is afraid of sharing with IAP members, more afraid of the trolls that can key in on a person from a forum and next thing you know you're on all kinds of spam lists or such.  Online forums are a great place for trolls to pick up fodder for email spam lists or marketing lists.



Only members can see other member profiles.

We don't publish, sell, or otherwise expose member email addresses. 
(Unless of course you put your email in the clear or weakly obscured in a post.)

We do everything reasonably possible to protect our members from spam, scams, and other annoyances. If I can do more, let me know!


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## jleiwig (Oct 20, 2008)

jeff said:


> Only members can see other member profiles.
> 
> We don't publish, sell, or otherwise expose member email addresses.
> (Unless of course you put your email in the clear or weakly obscured in a post.)
> ...


 
I know you do...it's not that.  I just wonder how many of the 100s of members who have never posted are scanning through and getting emails and other information.  It's not hard to find someone through search engines when you have a name and a location...I do it every day as part of my job.


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## bitshird (Oct 20, 2008)

Wow I think the paranoids are out to get me, Places like facebook, myspace, predators online, OOoooops didn't mean to list that one, Oooops another Faux Pas, shouldn't say That one, those are the places that the creeps have their bots cruising.
I've used my name, city and website url since day one and I haven't gotten any spam mail, I did get a cat named Spam, does that count?? 
I get more spam from my old web server, and my Yahoo account, but not really enough to worry about. just remember what your dad said, Always USE Protection !!!!!


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## jleiwig (Oct 20, 2008)

wdcav1952 said:


> Dear ?,
> 
> It has be recommended for as long as I have been a member here that one should not post email addresses in an open forum.


 

I wasn't speaking of email addresses per se.  Just from the information you have listed in your profile, and one quick search, it was easy to find that there is only one Dr. William Cavanaugh in Montgomery, PA who lives on a state route across from a memorial park in a nice looking house (from the satelite image anyway!) and is aged 55-59.  

Need I go further to prove a point? 

If I took the time I could find your house value, property tax, and income tax paid last year if I wanted to with another two searches. Adding piece by piece until I find something useful or worth selling to someone.   

The point is that the interenet can be a very dangerous place.  Anyone who wants to find out information can.  While it may be nice to "put a name" to someone you speak to online, the fact that someone doesn't want to share that information shouldn't speak against that person and shouldn't be taken personally. 

Not to pick on you Cav, but a cavalier attitude towards these things could burn you. :biggrin:

Thanks,

*Justin*


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## wdcav1952 (Oct 20, 2008)

Justin,

Thanks for listing a name.

I am impressed that you went to whitepages.com and found out so much about me.  I guess I am lucky you didn't reveal your credit card on line and pay USSEARCH to find out more about me.  You could have interviewed my neighbors across the street to find out more for free.  Since the memorial garden is a cemetary, I doubt they could have added much to your data base.

Excuse me, I have to put my aluminum foil hat back on and keep an eye out for black helicopters!


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## airrat (Oct 20, 2008)

Justin,

We do so much in life each day to give out personal information that this is minor to me.  MD Anderson just arrested a person for accessing patients records and getting personal information and trying to get lines of credit.   My wifes was one of those accounts.  

When you use your credit card in a store do you always cover the numbers or if you hand it over to the clerk do you put it numbers down?   Do you make sure the person next to you does not have their camera cell phone out?

If you use your credit card online are you 100% sure that the site is secure or that someone there is honest?  How about the clerk in the store?   How about the billing department at your doctor, dentist, auto mechanic, wood store....?

What about the credit card companies themselves?  How many of them have had people working for them that are not honest and we hear on TV how many thousands of accounts were accessed.

Do you use Gel/Printers ink to write all of your checks?  or Do you just use whatever is available?   30 min, a book, scotch tape, fingernail polish remover and a dish is all that is needed to get a blank signed check if you don't use Gel/Printers ink.


Do you look at the card slot on all the ATMs and Gas pumps to make sure that is not some reader device attached?

That is just a few of the examples of what we have to worry about with stolen identity.   With all of those out there,  I just don't think I am going to worry about this site.


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## jleiwig (Oct 20, 2008)

airrat said:


> Justin,
> 
> We do so much in life each day to give out personal information that this is minor to me. MD Anderson just arrested a person for accessing patients records and getting personal information and trying to get lines of credit. My wifes was one of those accounts.
> 
> ...


 
I'm not saying that I do any of those things.  You can find everything out about me online very easily as I am a public service employee and my name is everywhere.  

I was just playing devils advocate here giving opinions on why someone doesn't want to share information.  As I said I search all day long for people as part of my job.  I have access to way too much information in my opinion.  Of course I didn't use that for the example with Cav...just whitepages.com like he stated.  I am very careful with my debit card after being burned by some scammer and being treated like a criminal at my old bank.  Credit card, not as much due to protections by the company, but still careful.  

I just don't see the point in not speaking to someone on a forum because they choose not to use a name for whatever reason of their choosing.


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## DozerMite (Oct 20, 2008)

I like the statement about not really being a part of the IAP family just because you don't post your name.
This forum is based on cliques and if you aren't chosen to be inside it doesn't matter who you are or what your name is. That doesn't sound like a family to me.
I used to have my name in my signature but, for personal reasons, have decided to remove it. If nobody cares to post a response or reply to a question based on me not having my name posted, it isn't any skin off my nose. My day goes on.
A name isn't going to make your correspondence any more personable however, responding to a person's posts will let you get to know them better and that is the best way to become a family.
So if you really want to know a name, make an effort to get to know the person and when they feel comfortable, they will indulge your insistant curiosity.

Just my opinion...


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## chriselle (Oct 20, 2008)

I have no problem giving my name to the group but I can't get a signature to show up in my posts.  I filled out the sig field but to no avail.  Any help for the "newbie" ?  Chris is my name...BTW.

_edit_....Disregard....it's up.


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## IPD_Mrs (Oct 20, 2008)

5000+ members and about 300 or so that regularly post.  A first name is nice to be able to sort through the confusion.  One of the worse though is Mikes and Eds.  There are so many it is nice to have a little something to go with the first name.  Ed Brown and Ed Davidson do very well because of their username and it helped to keep them straight when I first started to post on here.

For the life of me I cannot figure out what is wrong with putting a first name in your signature unless you have an old family name and are embarrassed by it.  When you run a group buy and folks don't put their IAP handle in their PayPal payment (I forget sometimes too) a first name in the sig. really helps.  To each his own and to those who have honored the request thank you.

Mike


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## Mudder (Oct 20, 2008)

MLKWoodWorking said:


> 5000+ members and about 300 or so that regularly post.  A first name is nice to be able to sort through the confusion.  One of the worse though is Mikes and Eds.  There are so many it is nice to have a little something to go with the first name.  Ed Brown and Ed Davidson do very well because of their username and it helped to keep them straight when I first started to post on here.
> 
> For the life of me I cannot figure out what is wrong with putting a first name in your signature unless you have an old family name and are embarrassed by it.  When you run a group buy and folks don't put their IAP handle in their PayPal payment (I forget sometimes too) a first name in the sig. really helps.  To each his own and to those who have honored the request thank you.
> 
> Mike




My real name is Belvedere Jehosophat. There now, feel better?


Seriously speaking, I can't for the life of me figure out why some want to know my name and where I live. It's not like I'm going to invite you to Thanksgiving dinner and I doubt you are going to invite me over to exchange gifts for Christmas. Most all of my "cyberfriends" know my name and where I'm from If you really want to know them Pm me or send me an email and ask.

Perhaps some are shy, perhaps some are afraid, and perhaps some have other reasons. 

And from reading some of these posts, especially from members of the "management team" it makes me begin to wonder if this is the type of "family" that I want to belong to.


To me the solution seems simple, Either make it a requirement for membership or stop complaining.

Here is another possible solution.... If you feel so strongly about it then go to the user control panel and put everyone who does not "meet your family requirements" on your ignore list, rest assured you will not hurt me feelings one little bit.


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## sam (Oct 20, 2008)

My apologies to all. When I joined, I thought that I had given more info than what showed up in my profile , now that I took time to look at it. It is now up to date with my "profile". Thanks for the reminder. Sam


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## MesquiteMan (Oct 21, 2008)

Cav's post was not in his official capacity of a "member of the management team".  It was as a member of this community and his opinion only.  Folks need to remember that those of us who volunteer our time to this site are not always posting in an official capacity.  Sometimes we are just posting as Joe Member.  If volunteers always have to be on pins and needles regarding what they say and that it may be construed as an official position, then no one would be willing to volunteer.  Is it fair to hold a volunteer to a different standard than a regular member when they are not posting in their area of authority on a topic in which they have been given authority?


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## leehljp (Oct 21, 2008)

chriselle said:


> I have no problem giving my name to the group but I can't get a signature to show up in my posts.  I filled out the sig field but to no avail.  Any help for the "newbie" ?  Chris is my name...BTW.
> 
> _edit_....Disregard....it's up.



Chris,

I can't get Japanese to work here either! :biggrin:

If a person wants to remain hidden, at least use an a.k.a name - make one up just for this forum and make it friendly sounding. No way to really trace it to you anymore than your handle already is.


I know people personally whose real names give them away as to their ethnicity, and I know people who live in areas in which they are tracked, their email is scrutinized and online posting is monitored. I have known people who were killed because of their casual email or online posting - in which the people were not aware of being followed. Of course I am referring to areas that are not democratic oriented societies. I am sure that as large as IAP, there are a few people here who want to be a part of the pen turning forum, but at the same time, if they travel to certain countries on a regular basis, are not allowed to have their real name revealed in casual email or online forums. 

Many of you are not aware that some major world wide companies require their employees who travel to certain countries on occasion - to under go training for just such things. These people are not allowed to give their real names in casual and fun email / forum sites like this.


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## Blind_Squirrel (Oct 21, 2008)

wdcav1952 said:


> ... I respect a member's right to privacy if they so wish. However, they in turn should respect my right not to respond to postings by someone who wishes to remain anonymous and thus, in my opinion, not a full member of the IAP family.


 
I would believe that having volunteered and been accepted for an elevated position on the forums, you have given up that "right"; at least when it comes to posts concerning activities.


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## nwcatman (Oct 21, 2008)

NewLondon88 said:


> This would have sounded so much better if you had stopped at the word
> 'anonymous'.
> 
> (in my opinion)


i agree 100% ! how pompous.


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## chriselle (Oct 21, 2008)

leehljp said:


> Chris,
> 
> I can't get Japanese to work here either! :biggrin:
> 
> ...



Yes, I absolutely agree.  In fact, I don't really care other than having to have a conversation with someone called "BCG109543" or some other obscure handle...when a simple Bob, Dan, or Mike would do just fine as an aka...lol.

As for handles....yours should be "daimaijin" judging from the pens you've been puttin out.  :wink:


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## Mudder (Oct 21, 2008)

Please everyone,

Let's step back a moment and let it work itself out.

I made a PM last night to Jeff, Curtis and William to air my grievance and I am satisfied that it is being addressed properly. I'm on coffee break so I can't go further but I do intent to post during my lunch time a reply.

Jeff, Curtis and William are all great folks who put a lot into this forum and get very little in return and I highly respect each and every one of them.



Let's not let emotion overtake logic and turn this into a public lynching. Keep in mind that ANYONE who comes to this forum can read what you are writing and try to imagine what a first time visitor to the site would think.


Thank you for your consideration.

Scott Hettel
"Mudder"


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## jeff (Oct 21, 2008)

I understand and appreciate the spirit behind William's post. However, based on comments in the thread, and email I've received, I think some members might be putting more of a message behind William's request than he intended. 

I believe he was just trying to strengthen the community and bring us together, and I commend that intent. I think unfortunately the law of unintended consequences took over here and the topic has actually created some "us-versus-them" thinking which we do not endorse.

I've always tried to gently encourage people to fill in their profile and of course we do have some hard rules about it (to use the classifieds for example). I know that some people feel that not revealing a name is a tipoff that the member is not on the up and up, but I've rarely found that to be the case. In 5 years of running the site, I have encountered a few situations where a member did not want to reveal his or her name because of various pretty legit reasons (bring pursued by an angry spouse who became a member, for example...) What I'm trying to say is that it's a mistake to label people as "not family" or suspicious, or untrustworthy because they don't have a name in their profile or signature.

We take great pains to keep "bad guys" out of our midst, and are serious about maintaining the privacy of email addresses, IP addresses, postal addresses, etc. It would be great if everyone would felt comfortable about revealing their personal details. I respect the fact that some people don't. I also respect the position of people who don't wish to interact with them. Let's live and let live on this issue. 

*The bottom-line, official position is that while we encourage members to include their real name and location in their profile, that is optional*. 

If some members don't wish to interact with members whom they don't know by name, that's their prerogative. I feel it's a loss on both sides, but it's not something we are going to solve here.

Thanks for discussing this, and feel free to PM me with further thoughts.


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## airrat (Oct 21, 2008)

Blind_Squirrel said:


> I would believe that having volunteered and been accepted for an elevated position on the forums, you have given up that "right"; at least when it comes to posts concerning activities.




Scott I think it was already posted that even though they are in an elevated position they are allowed to make post that do not apply to their elevated position.  Here it is again in case you do what I do sometimes and scroll too fast. 



MesquiteMan said:


> Cav's post was not in his official capacity of a "member of the management team". It was as a member of this community and his opinion only. Folks need to remember that those of us who volunteer our time to this site are not always posting in an official capacity. Sometimes we are just posting as Joe Member. If volunteers always have to be on pins and needles regarding what they say and that it may be construed as an official position, then no one would be willing to volunteer. Is it fair to hold a volunteer to a different standard than a regular member when they are not posting in their area of authority on a topic in which they have been given authority?


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## DCBluesman (Oct 21, 2008)

Blind_Squirrel said:


> I would believe that having volunteered and been accepted for an elevated position on the forums, you have given up that "right"; at least when it comes to posts concerning activities.


 
Given up the right by volunteering to help?  That ought to end all volunteering.


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## bitshird (Oct 21, 2008)

DCBluesman said:


> Given up the right by volunteering to help?  That ought to end all volunteering.


I agree, if a person is kind enough to give of him/herself with out remuneration I don't think they should give up the right to speak their personal view. How hard would it be to use a signature like Tom in Salt Lake, just a first name and general area surely couldn't hurt.


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## Mudder (Oct 21, 2008)

*Long discussion.*

Let me preface my post by saying that I work in quality and engineering and we tend to see things in "black & white". A part is either to spec or it is not... There is no gray area and I tend to take a strong stance on one side or the other. 

I also do not know how to quote multiple posts in a thread so I hope you can understand what I'm trying to say. My command of the written word has much room for improvement.......

Curtis,

I'm not trying to call you out, I just want to explain my line of reasoning and perhaps start a RESPECTFUL,HEALTHY DISCUSSION that all of our members can participate in.

Having said that, let's begin.


Curtis said:

“Cav's post was not in his official capacity of a "member of the management team". It was as a member of this community and his opinion only.”

Unfortunately I read it to be something different and I would like to show you my line of thinking……

Cav said:

“Of course, I did not recommend this as a condition of membership, and would never do so. I respect a member's right to privacy if they so wish.”

To me, (and I might be the only one) this appears to be an “Official Position” and when it is followed with:

Cav said:

“However, they in turn should respect my right not to respond to postings by someone who wishes to remain anonymous and thus, in my opinion, not a full member of the IAP family.”

To me (and I might be the only one) it seems that there is no distinction between the “Official Position” and the “Personal Position”. Seeing that William has a title under his name and I saw nothing telling me it was a post of his opinion an his opinion only, followed by a post by Admin a few posts below, not contradicting the position it’s not hard to see where a person could have the PERCEPTION (remember this word because it is the point of this post) that it is accepted by Admin.



Curtis said:

“ Folks need to remember that those of us who volunteer our time to this site are not always posting in an official capacity. Sometimes we are just posting as Joe Member. “

Perhaps there should be a way to differentiate if you are posting “officially” or as “Joe Member”? This could go a long way towards changing the PERCEPTION that this is a group full of “Cliques” or “eletists”




Curtis said:

“If volunteers always have to be on pins and needles regarding what they say and that it may be construed as an official position, then no one would be willing to volunteer.”

I have offered to Jeff on a number of occasions my help as I have to you Curtis. I believe that my words were

“Find a place where YOU think I can do the most for the IAP and I would be happy to help”

When the position of Library and resource manager is posted I fully intend to “throw my hat in the ring for that one” I may get it and I may not but I will continue to help wherever I can. 

I realize that in the past I have had behavior patterns that were confrontational and I would tend to “let emotion overtake logic” but I truly believe that since the doctor discovered the chemical imbalance and it treating it properly my behavior patterns have improved. I also recognize that I still have some improvements that I need to make because part my post last night (the part about if this the type of “family” that I wanted to belong to) was a classic example if what I refer to as “letting emotion overtake logic” and I apologize for that remark




Curtis said:


“Is it fair to hold a volunteer to a different standard than a regular member when they are not posting in their area of authority on a topic in which they have been given authority?”


No it is not.

However it is an unfortunate reality that not only happens with this group but everywhere in society and you guys have been around long enough that I believe that you understood that from the beginning. Again, I believe that we need to, as a group, work together to try to change the perceptions that we are a group of “cliques” and “elitists”  because it is very easy to see where a newcomer could get those perceptions.


As I said, I bear no Ill will toward anyone and I must say that the reply by William to my private message reinforced my belief that he a stand up guy and my respect and admiration for him has not diminished whatsoever. I believe that it was a matter of  words that  “just didn’t come out right” and I’m confident that “this to shall pass”


I will publicly give Jeff permission to post my P.M to him as I believe that the situation was handled properly, thoughtfully, calmly and respectfully.



Thank you,

Scott Hettel
"Mudder"


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## MesquiteMan (Oct 21, 2008)

Belvedere Jehosophat you need to knock it off with your sound reasoning!

Sincerely 
Cactus Jack


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## DocStram (Oct 21, 2008)

*
So .........    "How about those Pirates!"

*For those of you not familiar with my quote ......  when we go back to Pittsburgh to visit our families .... and all of the relatives are gathered around the table, the conversation sometimes becomes "controversial".  When things begin to get heated ....  one of my brothers-in-law will pipe up and say "How about those Pirates?"   Everybody chuckles and knows it's time to change the topic.  ​


----------



## marcruby (Oct 21, 2008)

You won't mind if I point out that the lack of a title or rank certainly has never been an impediment to pontificating.  Of course, the answer to the official vs. personal muttering issue is to simply remember to preface the latter with something like 'I think' or 'I feel'.  Something that most of us (like me, for instance) should do more often.  That should probably be part of 'volunteering 101' now that I think of it.



DCBluesman said:


> Given up the right by volunteering to help?  That ought to end all volunteering.


----------



## dntrost (Oct 21, 2008)

Amen,  How bout those Chargers!


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## rjwolfe3 (Oct 21, 2008)

I would ask about the Browns but I forgot they don't have a team anymore.


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## TBone (Oct 21, 2008)

DocStram said:


> *So ......... "How about those Pirates!"*​


 
*Now that's a quote I can go with....wait.....you meant the "other" Pirates. Never mind! :biggrin:*


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## DCBluesman (Oct 21, 2008)

Most of you haven't been around long enough to remember, but this kind of garbage is what ended the first IAP Board of Directors a few years back. 

If anyone thinks they should hold me to some artificial standard based on the fact that I have VOLUNTEERED to help out with the site, I strongly suggest they blow it out their @*$%. 

I don't hold myself up to be more important just because Jeff has chosen to indicate a title in my Screen Name. In fact, most folks will tell you that service positions are usually filled by people who DON'T think they are more important - they think VOLUNTEERING is more important. 

Now if a *very few* of you can't understand that my posts are meant to be from *LOU METCALF, MEMBER*, I strongly suggest *YOU* mentally add the " I think" in front of all of my posts. I don't have time for your petty childishness.




marcruby said:


> You won't mind if I point out that the lack of a title or rank certainly has never been an impediment to pontificating. Of course, the answer to the official vs. personal muttering issue is to simply remember to preface the latter with something like 'I think' or 'I feel'. Something that most of us (like me, for instance) should do more often. That should probably be part of 'volunteering 101' now that I think of it.


----------



## jeff (Oct 21, 2008)

Mudder said:


> To me (and I might be the only one) it seems that there is no distinction between the “Official Position” and the “Personal Position”. Seeing that William has a title under his name and I saw nothing telling me it was a post of his opinion an his opinion only, followed by a post by Admin a few posts below, not contradicting the position it’s not hard to see where a person could have the PERCEPTION (remember this word because it is the point of this post) that it is accepted by Admin.



The members in "official positions" are there to do a job, not to make policy. It's unfair, unnecessary, and incorrect to infer policy from anything they post except when it is identified as such. They are free to participate as "regular members", with the few caveats described in the Code of Conduct I've established for them which in essence asks simply that they not undermine the mission of the IAP. 

I know that it is popular in politics to slice, dice, and dissect everything the other guy says to extract position and policy. I hope we can avoid that here as it doesn't serve any constructive purpose. 

When a team member's posting does convey policy, it will be identified as such, it will have been discussed with the rest of the team and me, and very likely added to one of our official policy pages.

The default assumption when you read something from one of the team members should be that it's their opinion unless it is clearly stated otherwise. If you ever read something and you want to know whether or not it's policy, ask me and I'll clear it up. 

In the specific case here, William opined that he would like to see member names in profiles and sigs. I happen to agree with him; other people disagree with both of us. I respect both sides of the issue, and our official policy, as I explained above, does not require names.

Thanks for the good discussion.


----------



## Blind_Squirrel (Oct 21, 2008)

DCBluesman said:


> Given up the right by volunteering to help? That ought to end all volunteering.


 
IMO when moderators/coordinators stop communicating, they have stopped moderating/coordinating.

How would you be able to coordinate the local chapter sub-forum if you took the position of "I choose not to respond to someone if I don't know their name" and someone who did not include their name posts a question to you in that sub-forum?



			
				Curtis said:
			
		

> Is it fair to hold a volunteer to a different standard than a regular member when they are not posting in their area of authority on a topic in which they have been given authority?



It may not be "fair" but it certainly is the standard.  People in the "public spot light" like police officers, public officials and even celebrities are held to higher standards than "Joe Pubic" even if they are "off the clock".  Remember a fairly recent president that got hauled in front of the country for lying about some hanky-panky in the oval office?  Or a Pop star that had her picture all over the internet because she chose to go out without panties on?

Like it or not, "Joe Member" will use the moderators/coordinators/volunteers of this forum as a gauge of what this forum is about.  Like it or not, as long as your name has a title below it, you will be held to a different standard by some others on this forum.


----------



## IPD_Mrs (Oct 21, 2008)

Scott, thank God I have gotten to know a little of you and did not take your lunch time post as harsh as it came across. Please do not post on a serious topic that you have a stong opinion on after a couple of hot toddies!  :biggrin:

Everyone has some very good points but at the same time it seems that we have gotten of the topic/request or whatever.

Scott you said that what difference is it if I give my name or not.  We won't have each over for Thanksgiving and we won't exchange gifts at Chistmas.  That all sounds pretty solid at first glance.  I think the point about offering a first name is more about *social politeness* rather than are you going to become friends or buddies.  If you go to a cocktail party and are introduced to the host's friends are you going to refer to yourself as Mudder or Scott?  You are probably not going to have Thanksgiving dinner with them or exchange X-mas gifts so why would you give your real name?

Next I think we got off the topic because it was William that asked.

EVERYONE PLEASE IGNORE WILLIAM'S POST:

For those that see fit could you please review your profile and maybe put in a first name and even a state would be nice.  (Mudder, confussion is your state of mind not the state you live in.)  If for no other reason this would be of great help to those that run group buys and for those who participate in them and forget their IAP handle with their payment.

Pesonally I think that is all the post was, nothing more nothing less.  I am really suprised at people taking offense at being asked their name.  Sometimes it is a sad world we live in. :frown:  

Scott thank you for letting me poke a little fun with you.  No offense is meant as you well know.

Mike


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## Rick_G (Oct 21, 2008)

As far as a first name, I like it.  To me it's easier to say hi Mack or Ed or Joe than Hi imakesawdust  Just seems a little more personal to me.  Other than that I don't care.  

Now email addresses that would be another thing, but my email address is not accessible in my profile to others.  That is a good thing.  I was using one address for all my woodworking related stuff and started getting spam to that address.  Since the provider for my web site allows me 500 addresses I have started making a new one for each on line activity.  I changed the one for this site a while ago and for those interested I have not got any spam to the new address so it was not coming from someone harvesting addresses here.


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## marcruby (Oct 21, 2008)

I think we apparently have very different opinions about what composes petty childness.  You seem alarmingly quick to take offense.  

I think showing respect for differences is a considerably stronger way to build fellowship than resolving whether DCBluesman is or isn't Jack the Ripper.  And I'm certainly not going to take anything you or any other board member says as gospel in any case.  I've completely ignored far more knowledgeable people than any of you.

Thanks,

Marc



DCBluesman said:


> Now if a *very few* of you can't understand that my posts are meant to be from *LOU METCALF, MEMBER*, I strongly suggest *YOU* mentally add the " I think" in front of all of my posts. I don't have time for your petty childishness.


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## marcruby (Oct 21, 2008)

All;

Like I said, this is always a tempest in a teapot subject.  People really differ on this issue and it can quickly come to emotional terms.  What's important is to use common sense in extending your trust.  Don't automatically trust just because you happen to think you know the name of the person your exchanging with.  It is, after all, not screen name, but behavior that it important.

Really, you are all very nice people.  Don't lose sight of that.

Marc


----------



## flyingmelon (Oct 21, 2008)

So who's turned a pen lately?


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## Mudder (Oct 21, 2008)

jeff said:


> The members in "official positions" are there to do a job, not to make policy. It's unfair, unnecessary, and incorrect to infer policy from anything they post except when it is identified as such. They are free to participate as "regular members", with the few caveats described in the Code of Conduct I've established for them which in essence asks simply that they not undermine the mission of the IAP.
> 
> I know that it is popular in politics to slice, dice, and dissect everything the other guy says to extract position and policy. I hope we can avoid that here as it doesn't serve any constructive purpose.
> 
> ...



Jeff,

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on some of what is discussed here. As far as I'm concerned I wish you would make it a policy to have your name and location in your profile (where only members can see it) and I disagree with putting it in the signature line. Why? Because I'm not sure if the signature line can be viewed by the general public and I don't want just anybody knowing who I am (Yes Mike, I'm THAT important :tongue

Having said that, I'm not going to Voluntarily do it unless it's a requirement because I like to be difficult sometimes! :good:


Now that the seriousness is out of the way and I've spoken my peace I have to place my tongue firmly in cheek and ask you if the default assumption that you stated above should be considered policy because it has NOT been clearly stated and I need to know?? 

Yes Curtis, I'll go practice my CA finish now:wink:

No Mike, I'm at work and I don't plan on having a redneck gin & tonic until at least 7:00 tonight..... Maybe I'll give you a call about 9:30 when I'm on my third so we can have a chat  but I think I'll start searching through my email's while I can still see to find Williams number.... I think I have it around somewhere...... If not I'll have to spend the $9.95 to get it on peoplefinder.com :bananen_smilies022:


----------



## ilikewood (Oct 21, 2008)

I'll start:

My name is Bill Jacob....I'm a pen addict.

I will have to tell DocStram that will have to be my new title instead of "Weasel Bill in Idaho".


----------



## MesquiteMan (Oct 21, 2008)

Mudder said:


> Jeff,
> 
> I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on some of what is discussed here. As far as I'm concerned I wish you would make it a policy to have your name and location in your profile (where only members can see it) *and I disagree with putting it in the signature line*. Why? Because I'm not sure if the signature line can be viewed by the general public and I don't want just anybody knowing who I am (Yes Mike, I'm THAT important :tongue


 
Belvedere Jehosophat, 

I think you need to re-read Jeff's thoughts on this. We officially encourage folks to put their names and location in their profiles but I don't think we have ever officially encouraged people put it in their signature. 

I don't have my location in my sig and see no need for it since it is available in my profile.

Now Belve, go back to sniffing your CA fumes!


----------



## Texatdurango (Oct 21, 2008)

Ain't cyberspace neat!

It's amazing to see the petty crap people can come up with just to argue.  After a while you aren't agruing about anything, just arguing to argue, then of course the cheap shots start creeping in..... Sad, and from a bunch of pen turners who if meeting in the real world would be arguing to see who gets to pay for lunch!

The way I see it, you either put your name in your profile or you don't.  Doesn't seem to be a whole lot to argue about does it?


----------



## Mudder (Oct 21, 2008)

MesquiteMan said:


> Belvedere Jehosophat,
> 
> I think you need to re-read Jeff's thoughts on this. We officially encourage folks to put their names and location in their profiles but I don't think we have ever officially encouraged people put it in their signature.
> 
> ...



Now I have to pick fun at you Curtis


This is your moderator

Insert picture of Curtis here:


This is your moderator sticking his foot in his mouth:

See file attached....






Any Questions?


----------



## ilikewood (Oct 21, 2008)

Hey Tex,

I hope you aren't saying that Doc calling me a Weasel was a cheap shot.  I consider DocStram to be one of my good friends and his giving me the title was purely for fun.  I put my post in there just to lighten the mood a bit and nothing was meant to insult someone or insinuate that someone had offended me (it takes an awful lot to upset me).

Sometimes the mood in this forum just gets a bit touchy, and I have read several posts in this thread where people are trying to lighten the mood.  It is always nice to have people who can make light of a situation and still take it seriously.


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## MesquiteMan (Oct 21, 2008)

Belve,

My location is in my PROFILE, not my signature. We encourage folks to put it in their PROFILE. You agree but disagree that it should be in their SIGNATURE as you stated above. Come on, Belve, get with the reading comprehension!:biggrin:


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## DocStram (Oct 21, 2008)

ilikewood said:


> Hey Tex,
> 
> I hope you aren't saying that Doc calling me a Weasel was a cheap shot.  I consider DocStram to be one of my good friends and his giving me the title was purely for fun.




It most certainly wasn't a cheap shot!   I'm a regular, dues paying IAP member.  Every January I get my membership statement from Jeff and pay my $250 just like everybody else.   :wink:

George knows I'm a better cheap shot artist than that!! :biggrin::biggrin:


----------



## PR_Princess (Oct 21, 2008)

Mudder said:


> Jeff,
> 
> I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on some of what is discussed here. As far as I'm concerned I wish you would make it a policy to have your name and location in your profile (where only members can see it) and I disagree with putting it in the signature line. Why? Because I'm not sure if the signature line can be viewed by the general public and I don't want just anybody knowing who I am (Yes Mike, I'm THAT important :tongue
> 
> ...


 
ROTFLMAO 

Scott, 

Difficult? You??? How COULD you say such a thing? 

BTW I have William's number :wink:.......and I'll sell to you for only $29.95! (Sorry William, I need some CA :tongue


----------



## Mudder (Oct 21, 2008)

MesquiteMan said:


> Belve,
> 
> My location is in my PROFILE, not my signature. We encourage folks to put it in their PROFILE. You agree but disagree that it should be in their SIGNATURE as you stated above. Come on, Belve, get with the reading comprehension!:biggrin:



Well Curtis,

you pulled out one foot and replaced it with the other. If you look at the post below (which has yet to be verified as policy:biggrin It appears that you name and location is encouraged to be in both 





jeff said:


> In the specific case here, William opined that he would like to see member names in profiles and sigs. I happen to agree with him; other people disagree with both of us. I respect both sides of the issue, and our official policy, as I explained above, does not require names.
> 
> Thanks for the good discussion.




George;

If you haven't figured it out yet, this is my attempt to pad my post count so I can catch up to Ed and Cav :bulgy-eyes:

Or you can consider my ulterior motivation which is to have Jeff create a cabinet level position as forum Troll  I think I pretty much got a lock on that one


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## ilikewood (Oct 21, 2008)

$250?????  Where did you get that deal?  My bill was $350!!

I think Jeff owes me an explanation!


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## airrat (Oct 22, 2008)

Scott you need to work on the "post count" to catch up to those two.  At least 25-30 a day. :biggrin:

BTW I forgot to mention on your invite to Thanksgiving you gave all of us.  I would be afraid of those trees you show in your avatar.  How do you keep them smiling with them knowing your turn their family members into toothpicks.


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## wood-of-1kind (Oct 22, 2008)

ilikewood said:


> $250?????  Where did you get that deal?  My bill was $350!!
> 
> I think Jeff owes me an explanation!



One better, Jeff owes you a refund:biggrin: Just trying to lighten the mood here.


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## Mudder (Oct 22, 2008)

airrat said:


> Scott you need to work on the "post count" to catch up to those two.  At least 25-30 a day. :biggrin:
> 
> BTW I forgot to mention on your invite to Thanksgiving you gave all of us.  I would be afraid of those trees you show in your avatar.  How do you keep them smiling with them knowing your turn their family members into toothpicks.




You have to appease the fairies that live in the trees :wink:

(that's 1...... 29 more to go)


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## rjwolfe3 (Oct 22, 2008)

Mudder,
One of the guys I get wood pieces from has a face in one of his trees.  Made me jump the first time I saw it.  Reminded me of those talking trees you see in Halloween movies.  If I remember I will get you a picture next time I am over there.


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## Scotty (Oct 22, 2008)

I can't believe I just sat here and read all eight pages of this stuff.  I must have a pitiful life!  By the way, I do look forward to visiting this site daily.  It has helped me become a better turner, not just a better pen turner.  Still a long way to go, so guys, don't mess things up for me.......I need you.  I hope all of you will offer help when I need it.  BTW, how 'bout them HOKIES!


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## Nolan (Oct 22, 2008)

Wow this really went off in the ditch!! A real muddy one at that


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## Texatdurango (Oct 22, 2008)

Scotty said:


> I can't believe I just sat here and read all eight pages of this stuff. I must have a pitiful life! By the way, I do look forward to visiting this site daily. It has helped me become a better turner, not just a better pen turner. Still a long way to go, so guys, don't mess things up for me.......I need you. I hope all of you will offer help when I need it. BTW, how 'bout them HOKIES!


You need to change your profile settings, I have mine at 40 messages per page that way I only had two pages to read!  I wouldn't have spent the time to read it if it were 8 pages! :biggrin:

Sorry Mudder, didn't see that coming, especially from you, I thought Ed was the only member low enough to pad his post count!


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## ed4copies (Oct 22, 2008)

By now you should know, Nolan.

Once every 3-4 months, we have to have a "Your mother wears combat boots" subject.  This time, CAV was the lucky "thread author".


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## ed4copies (Oct 22, 2008)

NPGJ, Tex.
(Nice Post, good job)


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## Mudder (Oct 22, 2008)

ed4copies said:


> NPGJ, Tex.
> (Nice Post, good job)



Oh..... So you leave me to battle the dragons and NOW you decide to chime in? :thunder:


Mr Brown, 

Do I need to offer to buy you another drink? :wink:
No, I don't think we'll go there again  Besides, we can't talk religion on the forum anyways :beat-up:



(that's 2...... 28 more to go, but WAIT!! Ed has posted twice more in this thread alone so I guess I'll have to post 30 more times to be back where I started from)


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## ed4copies (Oct 22, 2008)

Since there is no "member list" any more, Scott.  I have become less motivated to PAD my POST count.


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## ed4copies (Oct 22, 2008)

However, just for you, I WILL add a 

NPGJ Scott!!!

Now, that's FOUR on this thread!!!

Keep them finnies movin!!!!!


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## rjwolfe3 (Oct 22, 2008)

If you guys keep padding your post counts then how can the rest of us catch up.


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## ed4copies (Oct 22, 2008)

VERRY slowly!


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## Monty (Oct 22, 2008)

rjwolfe3 said:


> If you guys keep padding your post counts then how can the rest of us catch up.



You have to do the same thing.


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## rjwolfe3 (Oct 22, 2008)

Oh is that how it works.


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## Monty (Oct 22, 2008)

rjwolfe3 said:


> Oh is that how it works.



See how easy this is????


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## rjwolfe3 (Oct 22, 2008)

Yep, you could do this all day I bet.


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## Texatdurango (Oct 22, 2008)

ed4copies said:


> NPGJ, Tex.
> (Nice Post, good job)


I’m glad you spelled that out! I was beginning to think you still had your thesaurus out and were trying out another new word on us…..and misspelled this one too!


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## ed4copies (Oct 22, 2008)

NOPE


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## ed4copies (Oct 22, 2008)

rjwolfe3 said:


> Yep, you could do this all day I bet.


 
I am living proof.


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## ed4copies (Oct 22, 2008)

This will mark 6300 posts.!!!

(Keep the applause down, please)

Lou once said I made fewer than 20 substantive entries. I couldn't document more than TEN!!!:biggrin::biggrin:


----------



## OKLAHOMAN (Oct 22, 2008)

Lou was being generous!:wink::biggrin: 





ed4copies said:


> This will mark 6300 posts.!!!
> 
> (Keep the applause down, please)
> 
> Lou once said I made fewer than 20 substantive entries. I couldn't document more than TEN!!!:biggrin::biggrin:


----------



## Daniel (Oct 22, 2008)

I..


----------



## Daniel (Oct 22, 2008)

Know


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## Daniel (Oct 22, 2008)

A..


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## Daniel (Oct 22, 2008)

Better


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## Daniel (Oct 22, 2008)

Way.
Whew 2 and a half minutes to write that. not worth it.


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## ed4copies (Oct 22, 2008)

Daniel said:


> Way.
> Whew 2 and a half minutes to write that. not worth it.


 
It's an acquired talent!


----------



## devowoodworking (Oct 22, 2008)

wood-of-1kind said:


> One better, Jeff owes you a refund:biggrin: Just trying to lighten the mood here.


 
Hey Peter, don't you have some 'SKOGGER'S' to make:biggrin:


----------



## devowoodworking (Oct 22, 2008)

Sorry I couldn't resist, I just had to be the 100th poster in this topic, Oops make that 100 and 101:biggrin:


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## airrat (Oct 22, 2008)

I think Ed has hired a person to pad his count.  Else all he does is sit in front of the computer.


----------



## DCBluesman (Oct 22, 2008)

Actually, I remember two.

The first was when you introduced the PR Princess.  The second was when I won a Kringle.  Can anyone help me with a third? 



ed4copies said:


> This will mark 6300 posts.!!!
> 
> (Keep the applause down, please)
> 
> Lou once said I made fewer than 20 substantive entries. I couldn't document more than TEN!!!:biggrin::biggrin:


----------



## ed4copies (Oct 22, 2008)

You'd best remember that KRINGLE!!!

I don't see ANY MORE in your future, at this rate!!


----------



## wdcav1952 (Oct 22, 2008)

Well, I have taken some time away from this thread as it seemed that it was far more of a hot button issue than I would have thought.

For the bottom line of how I feel about the subject, please see my signature line.  It is not a universal truth, but since the forum and I are both located in the United States I believe in the First Amendment to the US Constitution.

I exercised my right to free speech and and stated that my speech was in my opinion.  I would like to list some of the comments and names that I noticed in the thread, ignoring the post padders who exercise the First Amendment in _ad nauseam_

"This would have sounded so much better if you had stopped at the word
'anonymous'.  (in my opinion)"  Excellent statement, *in my opinion*

"My opinion and it is worth just what you paid for it." Excellently put 

Ahhh, But what if you are in the witness protection program?  "Ifin I tells ya where I live I'll have to erase your mind with my laser pen"  Sigh, the meds don't always work!

"Excuse me, I have to put my aluminum foil hat back on and keep an eye out for black helicopters!"  Abusive speech, refer back to meds not always working. :befuddled:

I like the statement about not really being a part of the IAP family just because you don't post your name.
This forum is based on cliques and if you aren't chosen to be inside it doesn't matter who you are or what your name is. That doesn't sound like a family to me."  As noted repeatedly, my opinion, not company policy.  I choose not to address the clique notion which always raises its warty head when someone doesn't like what others say and/or believe.


"And from reading some of these posts, especially from members of the "management team" it makes me begin to wonder if this is the type of "family" that I want to belong to."  I refuse to accept that a two word title under my user name takes away my rights as a member to express a personal opinion.

"Cav's post was not in his official capacity of a "member of the management team". It was as a member of this community and his opinion only. Folks need to remember that those of us who volunteer our time to this site are not always posting in an official capacity. Sometimes we are just posting as Joe Member. If volunteers always have to be on pins and needles regarding what they say and that it may be construed as an official position, then no one would be willing to volunteer. Is it fair to hold a volunteer to a different standard than a regular member when they are not posting in their area of authority on a topic in which they have been given authority?"  Well stated, especially since it agrees with my position. :wink:

"If a person wants to remain hidden, at least use an a.k.a name - make one up just for this forum and make it friendly sounding. No way to really trace it to you anymore than your handle already is."  *Wow, someone gets it!!!!!*

"I would believe that having volunteered and been accepted for an elevated position on the forums, you have given up that "right"; at least when it comes to posts concerning activities." Damn, it is going to be difficult to be the Activities Manager if that becomes policy.  Perhaps a touch myopic."

"i agree 100% ! how pompous."  Name calling, perhaps I should mention that most keyboards have a shift key.  Being called pompous by someone who thinks a signature line based on the thought that flatulation is cute isn't particularly hurtful, however.

"Let's not let emotion overtake logic and turn this into a public lynching. Keep in mind that ANYONE who comes to this forum can read what you are writing and try to imagine what a first time visitor to the site would think."  Ah, the meds are really kicking in! :wink:

"We take great pains to keep "bad guys" out of our midst, and are serious about maintaining the privacy of email addresses, IP addresses, postal addresses, etc. It would be great if everyone would felt comfortable about revealing their personal details. I respect the fact that some people don't. I also respect the position of people who don't wish to interact with them. Let's live and let live on this issue. "  Reasonable usage of the First Amendment.

"Given up the right by volunteering to help? That ought to end all volunteering."  No glasses  needed here.

"I agree, if a person is kind enough to give of him/herself with out remuneration I don't think they should give up the right to speak their personal view. How hard would it be to use a signature like Tom in Salt Lake, just a first name and general area surely couldn't hurt."  Seems obvious from this corner. 

"As I said, I bear no Ill will toward anyone and I must say that the reply by William to my private message reinforced my belief that he a stand up guy and my respect and admiration for him has not diminished whatsoever. I believe that it was a matter of words that “just didn’t come out right” and I’m confident that “this to shall pass”  Thank goodess, the meds are working full steam!! :wink:

"You won't mind if I point out that the lack of a title or rank certainly has never been an impediment to pontificating. Of course, the answer to the official vs. personal muttering issue is to simply remember to preface the latter with something like 'I think' or 'I feel'. Something that most of us (like me, for instance) should do more often. That should probably be part of 'volunteering 101' now that I think of it."  Interesting and well written.  I would hope perhaps that we exalted volunteers would be allowed to state that we are speaking as Management rather than stating that we are not.  If that gets mandated, I have a lot of posts to go back and insert "I think" into.  Also, it seems a bit cumbersome to have to put that in all my posts.  i.e., I think that is a nice pen, Marc.  I feel you did a good job on the finish.

"The default assumption when you read something from one of the team members should be that it's their opinion unless it is clearly stated otherwise. If you ever read something and you want to know whether or not it's policy, ask me and I'll clear it up."  Now that clears it up and I appreciate the post.

"IMO when moderators/coordinators stop communicating, they have stopped moderating/coordinating."  Hard to argue with that, whatever it means. 

"How would you be able to coordinate the local chapter sub-forum if you took the position of "I choose not to respond to someone if I don't know their name" and someone who did not include their name posts a question to you in that sub-forum?"  I can't speak for Lou, and I certainly don't intend to, but I would be a little cautious when dealing with someone who wished to start a local chapter representing the IAP and using the logo if they wished to remain anonymous to the forum.

"It may not be "fair" but it certainly is the standard. People in the "public spot light" like police officers, public officials and even celebrities are held to higher standards than "Joe Pubic" even if they are "off the clock". Remember a fairly recent president that got hauled in front of the country for lying about some hanky-panky in the oval office? Or a Pop star that had her picture all over the internet because she chose to go out without panties on?"  I want to know people's names and I am compared to Britany Spears???  Just curious, what high standard is the one to which she is held?  BTW, after years of therapy I also have given up wearing panties.

"Next I think we got off the topic because it was William that asked.

EVERYONE PLEASE IGNORE WILLIAM'S POST:"  Excellent advice!!!!!!

"I've completely ignored far more knowledgeable people than any of you."    A touch elitist, perhaps.  Seems to me that it makes learning a bit on the difficult side.

"It's amazing to see the petty crap people can come up with just to argue. After a while you aren't agruing about anything, just arguing to argue, then of course the cheap shots start creeping in..... Sad, and from a bunch of pen turners who if meeting in the real world would be arguing to see who gets to pay for lunch!"  You win, you can pick up the lunch tab. :wink:

"I can't believe I just sat here and read all eight pages of this stuff. I must have a pitiful life! By the way, I do look forward to visiting this site daily. It has helped me become a better turner, not just a better pen turner. Still a long way to go, so guys, don't mess things up for me.......I need you. I hope all of you will offer help when I need it. "  (Hokies reference deleted, you can only take free speech so far!! 

"Wow this really went off in the ditch!! A real muddy one at that"  A perfect end to a discussion that only the Insane Clown Posse could fully understand. :biggrin:  *In My Opinion.*


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## DCBluesman (Oct 22, 2008)

THANK YOU, WILLIAM!

*I've been waiting for an ICP reference on this forum for four long years!*


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## MesquiteMan (Oct 22, 2008)

DCBluesman said:


> *I've been waiting for an ICP reference on this forum for four long years!*


 
Lou, you playing IAP Forum bingo or what? If so, you forgot to yell BINGO!


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## rjwolfe3 (Oct 22, 2008)

I love this thread!


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## wdcav1952 (Oct 23, 2008)

rjwolfe3 said:


> I love this thread!




You are obviously padding your post count!!:tongue::wink:


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## DavidSpavin (Oct 23, 2008)

Just a thought, Why not have a separate login for 'Official' posts for those people with 'Official' positions. That way a personal comment cannot be mistaken for 'Official' comments ?


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## rjwolfe3 (Oct 23, 2008)

:deviladding?? We can pad our counts?  Wow that's awesome.:biggrin:


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## Scotty (Oct 23, 2008)

Adding insult to injury.........deleting my Hokies!!  How dare you!  I quit!!  Oh, wait, I can't quit, I have a big order for wood shavings, and a deadline.


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## Mudder (Oct 23, 2008)

Since this topic is going "so well" :wink: I just wanted to add a couple more thoughts.

Please remember that I am not attacking the person but I am questioning the idea's and logic.


Here we go again...............




			
				mudder said:
			
		

> To me (and I might be the only one) it seems that there is no distinction between the “Official Position” and the “Personal Position”. Seeing that William has a title under his name and I saw nothing telling me it was a post of his opinion an his opinion only, followed by a post by Admin a few posts below, not contradicting the position it’s not hard to see where a person could have the PERCEPTION (remember this word because it is the point of this post) that it is accepted by Admin.





Jeff said:

The members in "official positions" are there to do a job, not to make policy. It's unfair, unnecessary, and incorrect to infer policy from anything they post except when it is identified as such. They are free to participate as "regular members", with the few caveats described in the Code of Conduct I've established for them which in essence asks simply that they not undermine the mission of the IAP. 

I also believe that it is unfair, unnecessary, and incorrect to expect us to be mind readers. Especially when you contradict yourself in the same paragraph, having just finished a sentence telling us they do not make policy you tell us not to infer policy unless it is identified as such. I’m sorry Jeff but you are confusing this simple mind. Does the “management team” make policy or not?

Jeff Says:

I know that it is popular in politics to slice, dice, and dissect everything the other guy says to extract position and policy. I hope we can avoid that here as it doesn't serve any constructive purpose. 

I understand and agree.

If you take a look at my original post and then look at what you extracted from my post it would seem to me that you also “sliced and diced” what I have posted, taking my words out of context to give the reader the perception of a position that I necessarily did not take. I split Williams paragraph in two to illustrate the point that I could not make a distinction between policymaking and personal opinion from the way it was written.



Jeff says:

When a team member's posting does convey policy, it will be identified as such, it will have been discussed with the rest of the team and me, and very likely added to one of our official policy pages.

Again, I am confused. You opened your post by telling us that the “management team” does not make policy but now you are contradicting yourself once again.  If they are not here to make policy then I’m confused as to why they are here in the first place? Perhaps I’m just confused as to what the mission of the management team is? I was under the assumption that the “management team” was to be able to help set the policy of the site, especially in the area that they are assigned to. Is this incorrect?

Jeff said:

The default assumption when you read something from one of the team members should be that it's their opinion unless it is clearly stated otherwise. If you ever read something and you want to know whether or not it's policy, ask me and I'll clear it up. 

Again I must ask, if the “management team” do not set policy as you said in your opening line then why do we need a default assumption? If the “management team” does not set policy then a “default assumption” would not be necessary.


Jeff says:

In the specific case here, William opined that he would like to see member names in profiles and sigs. I happen to agree with him; other people disagree with both of us. I respect both sides of the issue, and our official policy, as I explained above, does not require names.

William is entitled to his opinion, as everyone on this site is entitled to their opinion (including me).


For what it’s worth, I would have no problem putting my real name in my profile if it was a requirement because it is not available to non members. I do however balk at putting my location in my profile and my name in my signature line because they can both be seen by non members. The location that you put in your profile shows up right under your screen name and I don’t want to make it available to non members.



Jeff said:

Thanks for the good discussion.

Thank you. It is really refreshing to see such a hot topic go this far without being dragged too far into the weeds. I believe that as a whole this group has made great strides towards having spirited but respectful disagreements. I hope that as a group we can all work together to make this a much better place for everyone


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## marcruby (Oct 23, 2008)

Why can't we all have titles, like on the AAW site?  Then if someone want's to be 'official' they can put their serious title in their sig.  The rest of us can just kid each other about all the silliness.

Marc
[Gnasher of Pens]


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## jleiwig (Oct 23, 2008)

I'll say that I never expected to see this kind if response!  

As I stated before I was just playing devil's advocate.  wdCav said he couldn't understand why, so I gave some reasons why.  I never thought it would turn into the mishmosh of redonculousness pooh that it has.  

The only thing I'll take issue with wdCav for is that he can't be saying someone has an elite attitude if he's the one saying he won't respond to those who don't use an identifier name.  Pot meet  Mr. Kettle

You all have to remember that you have all kinds coming here.  A lot of you come for the socialization, I don't.  I come here for information and information only, not socializing, so if I forget to add the USTIN behind my first initial of my name and before my last name of my login you'll have to forgive me.  If it loses me a couple of people replying to my questions so be it.  No sleep lost, I'm not going to end it all because of it.  It is a good way to alienate the lurkers though.


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## wdcav1952 (Oct 23, 2008)

jleiwig said:


> I'll say that I never expected to see this kind if response!
> 
> As I stated before I was just playing devil's advocate.  wdCav said he couldn't understand why, so I gave some reasons why.  I never thought it would turn into the mishmosh of redonculousness pooh that it has.
> 
> ...




"I've completely ignored far more knowledgeable people than any of you." 
A touch elitist, perhaps. Seems to me that it makes learning a bit on the difficult side.

If it makes you happy to think *in your opinion*  the two things are the same, by all means do so.  Come to think of it you prefer to ignore knowledgeable people so feel free to ignore me as well.  *In My Opinion*  :rotfl:


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## jleiwig (Oct 23, 2008)

wdcav1952 said:


> "I've completely ignored far more knowledgeable people than any of you."
> A touch elitist, perhaps. Seems to me that it makes learning a bit on the difficult side.
> 
> If it makes you happy to think *in your opinion* the two things are the same, by all means do so. Come to think of it you prefer to ignore knowledgeable people so feel free to ignore me as well. *In My Opinion* :rotfl:


 
I didn't post that originally, you've got the wrong guy.  :befuddled:

I've made no claims as to who and what I'm going to ignore.  I don't judge people here..that's the point your missing.  From your original post you've told us that you judge people to who do not use their name in a post to somehow be unfriendly basically and that you've chosen to ignore those people.  

What I said was you can't begin call someone an elitist because they chose to ignore someone based on some reason of their choosing just as you've chosen to ignore someone based on some reason of your choosing. 

Or maybe you'd been happier if I said that it was *"a touch hypocritical, perhaps" :biggrin:*
** 
*JUST MY OPINION THOUGH! :wink:*


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## wdcav1952 (Oct 23, 2008)

jleiwig said:


> I didn't post that originally, you've got the wrong guy.  :befuddled:
> 
> I've made no claims as to who and what I'm going to ignore.  I don't judge people here..that's the point your missing.  From your original post you've told us that you judge people to who do not use their name in a post to somehow be unfriendly basically and that you've chosen to ignore those people.
> 
> ...




You got me on that one, Justin.  BTW, I remember that judge not lest ye be judged bit from somewhere.  I never said I judged anyone, just that I had a preference.


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## jeff (Oct 23, 2008)

Mudder said:


> As far as I'm concerned I wish you would make it a policy to have your name and location in your profile (where only members can see it) and I disagree with putting it in the signature line. Why? Because I'm not sure if the signature line can be viewed by the general public and I don't want just anybody knowing who I am (Yes Mike, I'm THAT important :tongue


Signatures are now viewable only by logged on members. See my post.


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## Mudder (Oct 23, 2008)

:highfive:

Thank you. You've shown me once again why I love this place so much.


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