# Looking for help....



## Ligget (Aug 16, 2009)

Hi folks

I have a customer who is looking for something I have no idea how to make, he loves the colours in Azul copper but I can only find it in a vaneer form.

Would it be possible to turn down copper tubes then chemically treat it to create the sort of change he loves?

Sample below of what he is looking for. Thanks for any help!! 







Yes it does look a little like dyed BEB, but he wants treated copper!:frown::biggrin:

Here is a link where I found the veneer picture, there is a lampshade made from it and it looks good. LINK

Cheers
Mark


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## Wheaties (Aug 16, 2009)

I'm no advanced pen maker, but if/when you get that figured out, it's going to be one sweet pen!!


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## hewunch (Aug 16, 2009)

What about printing a picture on a label and casting it?


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## mredburn (Aug 16, 2009)

what about the samples they sell glued to a tube and cast.


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## ed4copies (Aug 16, 2009)

Mark, 

I am GUESSING that will have an unpleasant texture, for a pen.  So, even if you succeed in giving him EXACTLY what he ASKED for , you probably are NOT giving him what he WANTS!!!
(This IS a common problem)

I agree with the "glue it to a tube and cast it" crowd.  This will make the patina permanent (never change) and will give the pen a pleasant "feel" for writing.

Good luck, whatever path you choose.


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## NewLondon88 (Aug 16, 2009)

Since it looks like buckeye burl, how about taking some double dyed burl and
doing a 'worthless wood' cast with a copper powder in the resin? (if not actual
copper, then a copper colored pearl-ex?) The resin should stabilize the wood ,
and the voids would be filled with copper color.
You can dye the wood with food coloring .. some blue, some green?

Or not..


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## KenV (Aug 16, 2009)

It is 12 dollars to get a 8 by 10 piece to play with -- 

getting a smooth seam will be the biggest challenge.   I have done some veneer work and am thinking of gluing it to a wood core over a brass tube in a vacuum bag then cutting through 2 layers to get a maximum match of the material.  Chances of a pattern match are probably nil.  

Then off to the clear casting process--  

Seems like a natural match for one of the copper fittings style pens.


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## Russianwolf (Aug 16, 2009)

Reading their finishing option, the "cast-it" crowd is 100% on the money.


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## skiprat (Aug 16, 2009)

Mark, not sure if this is close enough, but if you want to try them, then you are welcome to them. They are made to fit the Jr series tubes.
They are clear cast tubes that look like they were in a sewer for a month:biggrin:


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## ed4copies (Aug 16, 2009)

skiprat said:


> Mark, not sure if this is close enough, but if you want to try them, then you are welcome to them. They are made to fit the Jr series tubes.
> They are clear cast tubes that look like they were in a sewer for a month:biggrin:




Expanding your horizons, Skippy???

Not only in the skip, now investigating the sewer???


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## skiprat (Aug 16, 2009)

ed4copies said:


> Expanding your horizons, Skippy???
> 
> Not only in the skip, now investigating the sewer???



Fu....

.....nah, you're not worth the rest.

Go sell something:wink:


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## Displaced Canadian (Aug 16, 2009)

You could go to a scrap yard and look through their old copper for a tube about the right size and cast it.


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## skiprat (Aug 16, 2009)

Mark, here's an acrylic that looked promising till I rounded the end:frown:

Good luck in your hunt:biggrin:


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## VisExp (Aug 16, 2009)

My initial thought was also to wrap a tube and cast it.  However, looking at the examples of the stuff the veneers have been used to build on the site you linked to Mark, I would be concerned about the scale of the pattern.  It doesn't look like it would translate to an area the size of a pen.

I found this site on how to patina copper, brass and bronze.

http://www.sciencecompany.com/patinas/patinaformulas.htm

# 7 on the list, the blue green looks like it might be a match for the Azul.  Maybe you could get a sheet of 36 gauge copper, some chemicals and patina your own.  That way you could control the pattern a bit better.  You could also experiment with applying the patina directly to the brass tube before casting in PR.


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## USAFVET98 (Aug 16, 2009)

Where did you get that blank? I like it a lot..



skiprat said:


> Mark, here's an acrylic that looked promising till I rounded the end:frown:
> 
> Good luck in your hunt:biggrin:


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## Ligget (Aug 16, 2009)

Thanks for all the replies, I appreciate each and every one, a lot of great info for me to think about especially the casting, the feel of the finished item etc.. I feel a headache coming on! LOL


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## ssajn (Aug 16, 2009)

A stained glass supply store should have copper foil sheets with a sticky back you could wrap on the tube. They may also have an Antique Copper Patina that should come real close to what you need. Then cast it. If you can't find the copper sheet I can send you a piece but your on your own for the patina.
Dave


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## GPDMTR25 (Aug 17, 2009)

*I like it too.....Where did you get that????*



skiprat said:


> Mark, here's an acrylic that looked promising till I rounded the end:frown:
> 
> Good luck in your hunt:biggrin:


 
Angela


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## ldb2000 (Aug 17, 2009)

Mark , how quickly do you need the copper blank ? 
I really liked the look of the copper veneers and I just ordered some of the Azul copper veneer from the link you gave . 
I expect it will take up to a week to get it and a few days to cast a few . Let me know if the time frame works for you .


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## desertrat (Aug 17, 2009)

Go to copper.org  click on Architecture then on finishes
There is an article on coloring copper chemicaly
Hope this helps 
John H


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## junosdad (Aug 17, 2009)

*faux approach*

Perhaps another way to go would be to paint the tubes with enamel prior to clear casting.  You could likely come pretty close and have additional control over the scale of the pattern. Sponge on layers of paint in the colors you want until it looks the way you want it to....

That said, I've wanted to play with natural patinas on copper for awhile, so would be really interested in hearing how any experiments with that came out.

With paint, more control.  With an actual patina process, less control, but likely a more 'spot on' look.  Either way, should be a cool lookin' pen when you're done.

Sam


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## skiprat (Aug 17, 2009)

Angela and Brian, sorry but I honestly can't remember where I got that acrylic:redface: It isn't something I would normally buy, so perhaps it was given to me.

Mark, my last idea....( I just read this on the web)
Splash some wee on the tubes then use some Alumilite once the patina is how you like it.


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## johncrane (Aug 17, 2009)

G'Day Mark! check out Berea Hardwoods stabilized wood blanks single dyed n/o 8 looks close.


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## mbroberg (Aug 17, 2009)

*I'll never quite get there*

This type of idea from one of the most talented pen makers I am aware of just reinforces to me that sadly, I will never reach the level of creative genius necessary to make truly remarkable pens.:frown:  I would have never in a million years said to myself, OK first "Wee on the tube".




skiprat said:


> Mark, my last idea....( I just read this on the web)
> Splash some wee on the tubes then use some Alumilite once the patina is how you like it.


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## skiprat (Aug 17, 2009)

mbroberg said:


> This type of idea from one of the most talented pen makers I am aware of just reinforces to me that sadly, I will never reach the level of creative genius necessary to make truly remarkable pens.:frown:  I would have never in a million years said to myself, OK first "Wee on the tube".



:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

LOL Mike, not sure who you were talking about, but apparently this method works. Google Urine on Copper. :biggrin:  Though how it was discovered beats me
It's kinda like wondering what was happening when the first guy decided that we could drink cows milk


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## mbroberg (Aug 17, 2009)

But you see Skippy, I would not have even thought to Google "Urine on Copper"  I don't think that I have ever Googled, Urine on anything!!

Although I must admit that the concept of Urine on a pen has crossed my mind after blowing out an expensive blank or in some other way ruining a turning.  But that is besides the point!  You sir, have reached a level of genius I can only dream of.  I shall file this helpful tip under, "U" in my ledger of tips and tricks of pen turning.



skiprat said:


> :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:
> 
> LOL Mike, not sure who you were talking about, but apparently this method works. Google Urine on Copper. :biggrin:  Though how it was discovered beats me
> It's kinda like wondering what was happening when the first guy decided that we could drink cows milk


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## ed4copies (Aug 17, 2009)

mbroberg said:


> But you see Skippy, I would not have even thought to Google "Urine on Copper"  I don't think that I have ever Googled, Urine on anything!!
> 
> Although I must admit that the concept of Urine on a pen has crossed my mind after blowing out an expensive blank or in some other way ruining a turning.  But that is besides the point!  You sir, have reached a level of genius I can only dream of.  I shall file this helpful tip under, "U" in my ledger of tips and tricks of pen turning.




Might just file it under "P" for Skip-pee!!


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## creativewriting (Aug 17, 2009)

Mark,

This effect can be achieved using polymer clay. I have been wanting to make a pen using copper verdigris for a while and just haven't had the time. I found some examples of polymer jewelry that was made using the verdigris technique.  These are very traditional verdigris examples.  In your case the blues can be customized to get the effect you need. The copper polymer clay has a great shine to it after it is finished.

Good luck!


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## John Eberly (Aug 17, 2009)

*Copper*

The original piece of laminate looks exactly like "mass copper", the pure hunks of the stuff that were originally found laying on the ground in Michigan's upper peninsula.

I'd say look on websites for mineral collecting and/or rock hounds for mass copper. Little pieces could be glued to a black tube (or drilled out for the tube) and then cast in colored resin.

Copper is soft - I'm thinking it could be turned on a wood lathe. You could have a combination of the natural copper under the resin and the shiny part that's turned which could be patinated.

Give it a shot - here's a link to one source for "copper nuggets". I like the 5.1G for your purposes. http://www.california-gold-rush-miner.us/copper-nuggets.htm


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## CabinetMaker (Aug 17, 2009)

Ligget said:


> Hi folks
> 
> I have a customer who is looking for something I have no idea how to make, he loves the colours in Azul copper but I can only find it in a vaneer form.
> 
> ...


I haven't read this whole thread but David Marks frequently works with copper and chemicals to get an effect similar to what you are looking for.  Check out his web page.


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## bitshird (Aug 17, 2009)

Mark, I'm still looking for the Patina solution, we had a full quart of it, I just can't locate it, or two of my brains three active cells.Gad I hope they didn't try drinking that stuff.


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## Ligget (Aug 18, 2009)

Thanks everyone, great ideas (except peeing on the tubes, thanks Steve):biggrin:, Butch I have search time which I am using now, so I reckon another week or two, Keith PM sent as a reply to your polymer clay idea.

Going to pm the customer just now to see if the pen he wants must feel like metal, or if look like metal will suffice, back soon!

Regards
Mark


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## ngeb528 (Aug 18, 2009)

Any craft store should have the stuff to patina copper.  I know that I've seen it at Michaels and Joann Etc.  

It's a pretty easy process.  Get the right size copper tube, patina it, then cast it in clear resin.  The hardest part will probably finding the right sized copper tube.


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## wood-of-1kind (Aug 18, 2009)

Hi Mark,
here is some "faux" foil paper that may be suitable for casting. If you think it will be suitable for you then I will mail it out to you 'accross the pond'.


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## mick (Aug 18, 2009)

Mark, I think Sam mentioned in an earlier post about painting tubes to mimic the pattern...I've made a pen like that using acrylic paints. I saw a"kit" in Michael's to create a Patina look. all it was, was three bottles of acrylic paints. Copper for the base coat, then two different shades of green.You sponged greens on sparsely after painting the entire tube copper. After they dried I cast them in clear resin....Looked pretty good. You could probably play around with different colors and get the pattern you want. Sorry I sold the pen before I realized I'd not taken any pictures.


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## leaycraft (Aug 19, 2009)

The oxidation of the copper is not a difficult process.  Many commercial patina products are out there.  The concept of of "urine patina" is an old one used by forgers creating sculpture for sale to unwitting buyers.   The reason being is its cheap, easy to come buy and imparts pitting and "corrosion" that mimics age and will provide the uneven patina that occurs naturally not the even patina that chemical treatment provides.


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## JJturns (Aug 19, 2009)

Mark, if the customer really wants real copper with a blue-green Verde finish I have 2 suggestions.  I seem to remember a beautiful aluminum pen you made so you have the tools and skills.


You can buy solid copper rounds and turn them to make the pen.
You can buy a solid copper composite M3 pen blank which is easier to turn.
 
Both of these items will take a real patina.  If you don’t want to experiment with making you own patina chemicals you can use ready made from Triple S Chemical in CA, or Jaxs in NY.  One advantage to doing the patina is if you don’t like it you can take it off with 0000 steel wool and redo it.

You will also need to lock the patina in with wax or clear coat to protect it and give it a pleasant feel.  If the patina is done correctly it will etch in and not rub off when you seal it.  If you need additional info or supplier contacts send me a PM.

Good luck,
JJ


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## Ligget (Aug 20, 2009)

Sorry for not replying sooner, my Dad is very ill with the later stages of advanced prostate cancer which has spread into his bones and I have been frequently over at his house which is only 2 miles away from mine, so I am stressed out more than normal.

Everyone has been brilliant with answers to help me make the perfect pen that my customer craves. I recently e-mailed him to ask if the pen barrels have to feel like metal and he said that the feel was not as important as the looks.

So I can get a cast done or use polymer clay as well as all the real metal options that many here have offered.

Again thanks to all for the help offered, however, I do not cast blanks so if I were to pursue that option I would have to get a caster to make the blanks for me.

Will re-read all the posts on this thread and try to decide on the best way forward.


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## workinforwood (Aug 20, 2009)

I would contact Roy <oklahoman>  He makes pens where he chemically alters the look of the tube, then casts it.  He even has a name for the finished product.  Make him do all the work then you simply turn and polish!


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## Rollerbob (Aug 20, 2009)

workinforwood said:


> I would contact Roy <oklahoman> He makes pens where he chemically alters the look of the tube, then casts it. He even has a name for the finished product. Make him do all the work then you simply turn and polish!


 Please tell me he doesn't pee on them!!


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## MHKogan (Aug 20, 2009)

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Your customer sounds like a person of particular taste who has gone to the trouble to provide you with a very specific request.  Real copper with a blue/green Verde patina is a very special look and one that many connoisseurs can not only discern but relish. Most importantly it is a finish that faux cannot provide. 

One of the little know facts about M3 metal composites, especially the copper is that they will patina beautifully and reliably.  The fact that M3 Copper pen blanks are made from the most magnificent pure copper allows their surface to take on the patina in its richest form.  The fact that M3 composite blanks are easy to turn, dense, stable and maintain the finest of finishes makes it the perfect material to fulfill your customers wishes.

We are currently offering members of this forum a 20% discount on any of our products,  but of most importance we have experts on staff that can walk you through the patina process and answer any questions.  We provide the expertise and support required for a special project like yours to be successful free of charge.

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## ldb2000 (Sep 4, 2009)

Mark , is this what your customer is looking for ? . PM me if it is . I have more veneer with more and less blue as well .
I posted more pictures of the pen in the SOYP forum


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## Ligget (Sep 5, 2009)

Thanks Butch, email sent earlier on, looks like I am now sorted has I have to great folks making these blanks for me! My customer will be delighted that is for sure, I have not been doing much pen related things recently as my Dad died and I have been trying to sort out his estate, he was my pens biggest fan and loved to see all my latest creations, so I have lost quite a bit of enthusiasim.


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## skiprat (Sep 5, 2009)

Hang in there Buddy. Like I said before, I'm very sorry for your loss. It is hardly any compensation, but we ALL are big fans of you and your stuff too.
Keep it going:wink:



Ligget said:


> Thanks Butch, email sent earlier on, looks like I am now sorted has I have to great folks making these blanks for me! My customer will be delighted that is for sure, I have not been doing much pen related things recently as my Dad died and I have been trying to sort out his estate, he was my pens biggest fan and loved to see all my latest creations, so I have lost quite a bit of enthusiasim.


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## NewLondon88 (Sep 5, 2009)

skiprat said:


> but we ALL are big fans of you and your stuff too.
> Keep it going:wink:



I'll second that .. and third it, too! :biggrin:


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## creativewriting (Sep 10, 2009)

Mark,

Sorry to here about your father.   Your work is beautiful so keep doing what your doing and hang in there.
K


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## jfoh (Sep 11, 2009)

Sorry for your loss and will keep you and your family in our prayers.


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## cnirenberg (Sep 11, 2009)

Mark,
Sorry to hear about your Dad.  Sounds like he had excellent taste in pens.


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