# Bethlehem or not



## skiprat (Jan 22, 2007)

Hi all, I'm sitting in a hotel room miles from home and bored out of my skull!!!
I have wanted to ask this question for ages, but don't want to cause a fight.

There are always loads of pens that say BOW. Is this a generic term for any olivewood or is it REALLY from Bethlehem. The stuff I get from CSUK just says Olivewood. Without any origin. I love it, it is highly figured and looks as nice as any I've seen here. I have seen reference to African and Italian as well.
Is this a claim by suppliers just to make it more appealing, or even by us pen turners.

I would like to hear/read your comments.

Cheers for now


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## jcollazo (Jan 22, 2007)

There's a whole industry based on BOW and JOW (Jerusalem). Most olivewood (Olea europa) is the same whether it comes from Africa, Spain, Israel, or the Napa Valley. To some people, BOW and JOW are more appealing simply because they came from their respective areas. I gave my pastor a BOW Cigar a few months ago to commemorate a trip to Israel.

I have a small supply of BOW pen blanks (with certificates) and a larger supply of domestic OW. They turn and look the same. It's just the origin. Hope this helps


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## Rudy Vey (Jan 22, 2007)

What Joe said. All the olivewoods (Olea Europea)are from the same tree, either if they are called Bethlehem, Jerusalem, Jordan or Greek. The naming is just a selling thingy making a "basic" wood more prone to sell to a certain group of customers. For my Christian customers I call it BOW, for Jewish customers the JOW sells better. I even have made pens from olive wood and called it Jordanian Olivewood since this sells better to our Islamic brothers and sisters.


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## DocRon (Jan 22, 2007)

According to one supplier, www.bethlehemolivewood.net, there is a difference in grain pattern and other properties between Bethlehem, Nazareth, and Jerusalem Olive woods. I've only used the BOW (with certificate), so I don't know. It wouldn't surpise me if jcollazo is right!  It is gorgeous stuff to turn, and I really like it.
Ron


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## Rmartin (Jan 22, 2007)

I love the smell olive wood gives off during turning. As for whether it's the real deal, who knows? I've heard it's illegal to export olive wood from Israel. A little business card does not a certificate make, but I like to take people at their word until it's proven otherwise. So I take them at their word and pass the little card along with the pen as Bethlehem olive wood to my customers.


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## leehljp (Jan 22, 2007)

> _Originally posted by Rudy Vey_
> <br />What Joe said. All the olivewoods (Olea Europea)are from the same tree, either if they are called Bethlehem, Jerusalem, Jordan or Greek. The naming is just a selling thingy making a "basic" wood more prone to sell to a certain group of customers. For my Christian customers I call it BOW, for Jewish customers the JOW sells better. I even have made pens from olive wood and called it Jordanian Olivewood since this sells better to our Islamic brothers and sisters.



Not intending to start a flame here, but that is deceptive and morally wrong - to sell something representing one thing when it is something else. As you note - each group wants a pen made of wood from a particular place for religious or sentimental reasons, and you pick a generic OW and name it as being from somewhere that it isn't- that is wrong.

The "naming" of a wood is NOT a "selling thingy" to the customers. This very issue gets people put in prison when done on a larger retail scale - because it is wrong.

Carrying this in a different vein that you can see, is it OK to "enhance" pen blank pictures that are posted online, and that people order? They are the same blanks that are shipped. The seller might say it doesn't matter; he might claim that your computer's color is off a tad after you get them and do not see the same vibrance in real that you saw on his web page. That is deception and the blank is bought based on how it looks online. There are dozens of deception scenerios, but in the end, they are still deceptions.


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## ilikewood (Jan 22, 2007)

I've been to Bethlehem and personally met with Ghasen and Diane Darwesh of Bethlehem Olive Woods.  I've seen their lumber works and their production facility.  They are as advertised.  They do not cut trees down but use the trimmings and prunings from the olive trees.  As far as I know, they are the sole suppliers of BOW.  

Yes, all olive woods are the same, but there is a "religious" significance that comes from it being from Bethlehem.  If it is not from Bethlehem, it cannot be called BOW.  If it is not from Jerusalem, it cannot be called JOW (another supplier).  

I'm with Hank on this one.  By calling it JOW, or BOW when it is not, infringes on their trademark names and puts at risk your reputation in doing so.  For those Islamic brothers, don't forget that Bethlehem is in Palestinian territory.


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## TellicoTurning (Jan 22, 2007)

I want to chime in with Hank and Bill... My first olive pen was from a blank I bought locally in Houston.. it was actually darker then most of the woods that I see as BOW.. I also bought some blanks that was marked Wild African Olive?? It has different marks from the Jerusalem Olive I bought from CSUSA... don't think I have done any BOW yet.  When I offer any of these pens for sale, I am careful to identify the wood as being exactly what it is...


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## JimGo (Jan 22, 2007)

I think like most other trees, the colors vary depending on the local environment (soil and atmospheric condititions, among others), so I'm not surprised that the JOW and BOW look different.


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## Rmartin (Jan 22, 2007)

Thanks very much for the confirmation Bill. I've only bought my BOW through the Bethlehem Olive Wood Company. They were very helpful on the phone and even sent me a few free pen boxes. I sell my pens as BOW, and have had them engraved with a cross as well as with a star.

I have seen a darker olive wood refered to as Russian?


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## Ron Mc (Jan 22, 2007)

Rudy,
Your not serious! You do realize that potential customers come to these forums and read the posts?
Honestly I am surprised that anyone would do this and I highly recommend you delete your post.


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## ilikewood (Jan 22, 2007)

Russian Olive is a whole different tree.  It is a weed tree that grows in the desert and dry areas (like where I live).  It has thorns about 2 inches long and people despise it...like my daughter who let her horse drag her through one![xx(]


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## GaryMGg (Jan 22, 2007)

> _Originally posted by Rudy Vey_
> <br />What Joe said. All the olivewoods (Olea Europea)are from the same tree, either if they are called Bethlehem, Jerusalem, Jordan or Greek. The naming is just a selling thingy making a "basic" wood more prone to sell to a certain group of customers. For my Christian customers I call it BOW, for Jewish customers the JOW sells better. I even have made pens from olive wood and called it Jordanian Olivewood since this sells better to our Islamic brothers and sisters.



The prefix to the name (Bethlehem, Jerusalem, et al) is an indication of a geographic location for the wood source even though the scientific name represents a single species.
I'm hoping you made your statement above that _"naming is just a selling thingy..."_ in ignorance and not actually as an immoral, illegal, and deliberately deceptive way to sell to your customers or their intended recipients.
The geographic location has sentimental, spiritual, and other relative values to the buyer or recipient and is, in part, why that pen is purchased. To deliberately mislabel the wood source is no different than if one of your vendors sold you a stainless steel plating as sterling silver. Would you as a customer entertain that as fair practice?

- G -

ps: As we say at WN, <b>IBTL</b> []


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## Rudy Vey (Jan 22, 2007)

Well, I guess I really did screw this one up. What I intended to say was that all these places, Bethlehem, Jerusalem or even Jordan are indeed very close together and have a very deep religious meaning for three of the main religions in this world. So, if I would go to a craft show in a church (of either denomination) and sell pens made from Olive wood, wouldn't I sell more if the are from "Bethlehem" and not called Jerusalem or Jordan Olive wood?? Vice-versa, in a craft fair in a Jewish center the "Jerusalem" wood would sell better.
I have both woods, Bethlehem and Jerusalem. 
I appreciate the work of Diane and Ghasan and have bought several times from them and always enjoyed the quality of their wood.
My original post was not meant being demeaning in any way for any religion, for me it is just that this wood has a meaning not only for Christians.





> _Originally posted by Rudy Vey_
> <br />What Joe said. All the olivewoods (Olea Europea)are from the same tree, either if they are called Bethlehem, Jerusalem, Jordan or Greek. The naming is just a selling thingy making a "basic" wood more prone to sell to a certain group of customers. For my Christian customers I call it BOW, for Jewish customers the JOW sells better. I even have made pens from olive wood and called it Jordanian Olivewood since this sells better to our Islamic brothers and sisters.


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## ericw95 (Jan 22, 2007)

I've purchased BOW, JOW, and NOW (Nazareth) from the folks at Bethlehem Olive Wood and I have to say each wood has distinct qualities.  Some pieces of BOW and JOW are highly figured and difficult to tell apart but NOW is MUCH different.  It is much lighter in color with less grain.  Maybe it was my shippment but of the 130 blanks I purchased, I know my NOW from the other two but I have to keep my BOW and JOW in separate packages with their descriptive cards.


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## woodpens (Jan 23, 2007)

> _Originally posted by Rudy Vey_
> <br />Well, I guess I really did screw this one up. What I intended to say was that all these places, Bethlehem, Jerusalem or even Jordan are indeed very close together and have a very deep religious meaning for three of the main religions in this world. So, if I would go to a craft show in a church (of either denomination) and sell pens made from Olive wood, wouldn't I sell more if the are from "Bethlehem" and not called Jerusalem or Jordan Olive wood?? Vice-versa, in a craft fair in a Jewish center the "Jerusalem" wood would sell better.
> I have both woods, Bethlehem and Jerusalem.
> I appreciate the work of Diane and Ghasan and have bought several times from them and always enjoyed the quality of their wood.
> My original post was not meant being demeaning in any way for any religion, for me it is just that this wood has a meaning not only for Christians.



I don't think the complaint is a religious one. If you get olivewood that was grown in California and call it BOW, that is unethical. If you buy BOW from Bethlehem and call it California Olivewood, that is unethical. The origin of the wood doesn't change based on who it is being marketed to, does it?


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## turned_for_good (Jan 23, 2007)

Rudy, if you had bought what what was labeled as BOW and find out it came from South Africa instead of Bethleham would that bother you at all?


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## woodbychuck1 (Jan 23, 2007)

Tell the Truth,, the Truth is easier to remember than trying to remember which lie you told... if nothing else just call it Mideast Olive Wood.. 

charles


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## Skye (Jan 23, 2007)

> _Originally posted by Rudy Vey_
> <br />Well, I guess I really did screw this one up. What I intended to say was that all these places, Bethlehem, Jerusalem or even Jordan are indeed very close together and have a very deep religious meaning for three of the main religions in this world. So, if I would go to a craft show in a church (of either denomination) and sell pens made from Olive wood, wouldn't I sell more if the are from "Bethlehem" and not called Jerusalem or Jordan Olive wood?? Vice-versa, in a craft fair in a Jewish center the "Jerusalem" wood would sell better.
> I have both woods, Bethlehem and Jerusalem.



I'm not agreeing with this train of thought at all. You're labeling the wood as originating in a particular location and then swapping them out as you need? Not cool.

None of us know with 100% certainty from which area our BOW, JOW or NOW comes from. All we can do is find a supplier we trust and transfer their information <b>accurately</b> to the customer. If you want to appeal to everyone, just call it Holy Land Olivewood. Better to be truthful and more watered down than exclusive at the cost of a lie.


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## Radman (Jan 23, 2007)

Some folks will say or do anything to make a sale[]


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## Rifleman1776 (Jan 23, 2007)

Olive trees grow all over the world. I have used only BOW because of the religious significance. But the Greek olive wood has definately a more vivid and beautiful grain and appearance. However, it is prohibitively expensive. I'm sticking with BOW.


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## RussFairfield (Jan 23, 2007)

This is my personal experience with Olive as a turning wood. 

Olive has been one of my most popular woods for pens and pendant watches over the years, and I have made several 9-10" natural edged bowls from it. I get it from Corning, CA because I can get it free if I am there at pruning time. 

I have never been able to tell any difference in the wood from different places in the world other than the wood from older trees will have more figuring. Since the trees from the Middle East to Spain are older and some are ancient, I would expect them to have nice figuring. When I get a 100+ year old tree from CA, the figuring in the wood looks just like the older trees from anywhere else in the world.

I offer it as Olive wood, and put up a sign with the disclaimer that, "This is not Bethlehem Olive Wood. It is genuine Olive wood from orchard trees that grew in Cotning, California." Its less than significant origin has never stopped a sale, I can get the same price for the same figuring as those who are selling the "BOW", and I have had many people express their appreciation for my honesty.


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## broitblat (Jan 23, 2007)

I have to admit, I have JOW and BOW and often can't tell them apart.  I try to keep them seperated but, if I pull out a piece and I'm not sure which it is, I will just call it Israeli Olive Wood.

I've also worked with Olive from Spain, Italy, and Greece.  Although similar, I am less prone to confuse these woods with JOW/BOW.  The wood appears to be darker.  I have seen some Olive from California that is also similar.

Finally, I've also turned some wood referred to as "Wild African Olive" and this seems to be significantly different.  Although it has a similar smell, the colors are very different.  The lighter shades are more yellow, and the darker colors in the wood are more of a light brown than the almost black found in JOW/BOW.  Also, the African Olive wood seems more prone to crack.  Perhaps, as Russ pointed out, this is only because the trees are not as mature.


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## skiprat (Jan 23, 2007)

Wow, some really candid and even honest answers. I am sure that there are dozens of members that quietly agree with each of the different replies. Like I said in my original post, I don't want to start a fight. 
I think the question has been more than adequately answered.
One thing we all seem to agree on is that Olivewood in any guise is still one of the most beautiful and favourite woods.[]

Thanks to all for replies


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## ilikewood (Jan 23, 2007)

The difference betweeen BOW and JOW....about 6 miles.[8D]  

The difference is the religious significance.  Bethlehem is the nativity, while Jerusalem is the "holy" city for 3 religions.  

Ghasen and Diane are very trustworthy to bring you authentic wood from those areas.  They went out of their way to make me a fabulous dinner and give me a tour of their place 2 years ago.  If you ever get the chance to go to Israel, make sure to look them up.


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## ctwxlvr (May 14, 2007)

I purchased BOW, JOW and NOW from www.bethlehemolivewood.net, and the three woods are very distinct both in looks and their smell, with BOW being the strongest, followed by JOW and NOW in that order.


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## kent4Him (May 14, 2007)

> _Originally posted by ilikewood_
> <br />Russian Olive is a whole different tree.  It is a weed tree that grows in the desert and dry areas (like where I live).  It has thorns about 2 inches long and people despise it...like my daughter who let her horse drag her through one![xx(]



In these parts, people use Russian Olive for landscaping.  My parents had one for 35 years until a microburst knocked it down.  So they dug it up and planted another one.  

Sorry about your daughter.


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## Mikey (May 14, 2007)

"The difference betweeen BOW and JOW....about 6 miles."

This is why I am not going to even say Rudy is in the wrong for marketing his stuff as from different cities as long as it actually does come from that area. Some of these trees are so old that I'd bet we don't even know which city they were closest to at some point in time. I would avoid however using the actual name BOW or JOW and instead would say olivewood from xxxx place. 

I could see what would be wrong if you get the stuff from elsewhere in the region and still market it as a certain wood, but if two different trees are a days walk away, then I don't see what is wrong with marketing it as suggested.


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## ahoiberg (May 14, 2007)

well put mikey.


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## Texatdurango (May 14, 2007)

To solve the origin dilemma, simply say the wood is from "The holy land".  Since the area serves several religions, you would be correct and free of any ethical dilemmas.

And as far as ethics goes, if all the BOW blanks are coming from ONE supplier in Bethlehem, they sure go to a LOT of trouble making dozens of DIFFERENT authenticity cards and stickers, because that is about how many different variations I have seen on many pen makers websites!

George


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## ken69912001 (May 14, 2007)

I personally have some BOW that I know came from Israel. A friends wife was on a tour there last year and went to a business that made items from BOW. They let her buy several blocks to bring home to the states.When she returned her husband brought me 4 of the blocks to make into pens for giveaways. She actually sent one Sierra back as a thank you for the wood. Now she cant remember the name of the gentleman but he was very pleased with it.
There is a difference between the woods depending where it comes from. I have some Spanish olive wood that i bought from someone on here that is a lot more yellow. But I always represent it as exactly where it comes from.


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## jkirkb94 (May 14, 2007)

I have both BOW and non-BOW olivewood.  I have the BOW labeled and it is the ONLY that I sell as BOW.  I always give a certificate with the BOW since that is the selling point!

<b>Image Insert:</b><br />


<br /> 
One of my earlier BOW with powdered Lapis stone to fill a natural void.  The Cross clip on the Euro has been a big seller around Christmas!  Kirk[8D]


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## PenPal (May 15, 2007)

My experience limited as it is with Olive Wood is that the finishing person can control the colour.The swirl will always vary where you cut it in the tree.See pic from near the eastern side of Australia.
In the early days of NSWales some olive trees were planted near Sydney,New South Wales,those trees can yield solid black inside as black as and good as Ebony,original trees from Europe.  Peter



<br />


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## richstick1 (May 15, 2007)

You have a monkey in your pen!!!  That is COOL!


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## PenPal (May 15, 2007)

Rich,Must have a monkey on my back called pen disease,usually long term and debilitating to the pocket,I like what you see. Peter


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## Mikey (May 15, 2007)

I also see the monkey. That is really cool!


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