# Should the IAP allow auctions



## DCBluesman (May 21, 2005)

Here's your chance to have some input to our "benevolent dictator".
Tell Jeff (and the members) how you feel about auctions on the site.

Should the IAP allow auction-type sales on the site?


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## wdcav1952 (May 21, 2005)

Thanks, Lou for designing this poll.


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## Scottydont (May 21, 2005)

IMHO, personally I would rather see folks list items for sale on the site. If you would like to auction your items, list them on Ebay and post a link in on a post in the individual classifieds here. I think the auction type posts get too busy.


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## Rifleman1776 (May 21, 2005)

Not voting. Mark me as undecided. A downside is that this forum could become a free advertising ground for a limited number of businesses and place the individual at a disadvantage.


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## ctEaglesc (May 21, 2005)

I don't see why not as long as the lister's and bidders are registered members.
In a sense it gives more people a chance at an item for sale.
If an item is listed, and someone (for what ever reason I cannot fathom) does not visit the forum that day then he usually loses out on  the chance to buy an item.
Case in point when I offered the extra copy of WT& design.
It didn't stay unclaimed very long.
Had it been an auction left open for a week more would have had the opportunity to bid on it.
Most items for sale are blanks and as such one of a kind
AN auction gives more people the opportunity as opposed to a sale.
(Disregard above statement if something is for sale that I want and I am the first to grab it)[]


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## Ligget (May 21, 2005)

It might mean a member from an "outlying" country having to go very late to bed, depending on auction finish time.


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## timdaleiden (May 21, 2005)

IAP=International Association of Penturners

or

IAP=International Auctioneering Place

 Jeff's going to need a new Logo.


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## PenWorks (May 21, 2005)

I favor the non auction, just my opinion because you asked. []
Auctions are okay for fund raising benefiting IAP.

And Eagle, that magazine was available for at least two minutes. []


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## DCBluesman (May 21, 2005)

I favor fixed price classifieds for everything except auctions to benefit the site.  

While I can understand someone trying to establish a market price for unusual wood, I don't believe this site is the right venue.  The original intent of the individual classifieds was to allow us to share unusual or excess inventory, hence the limitation to 3 ads per day.

The back and forth of auctions really junks up the flow of information being shared.  Plus, there's already an auction site...eBay!    I fear that the more auctions we allow the more cluttered the site will become, taking away from the educational value of the site.


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## Scottydont (May 21, 2005)

> _Originally posted by DCBluesman_
> <br />I favor fixed price classifieds for everything except auctions to benefit the site.
> 
> While I can understand someone trying to establish a market price for unusual wood, I don't believe this site is the right venue.  The original intent of the individual classifieds was to allow us to share unusual or excess inventory, hence the limitation to 3 ads per day.
> ...



I'm with you Lou!


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## Mudder (May 21, 2005)

I belong to another forum that is powered by snitz and has an auction module from xcent. It is a totally separate entity and there is a $500.00 price tag for a site license. I think the auctions via forum can be a little cumbersome but I think it gives members a fairer chance to get an item they want if they will pay more than anyone else. Maybe we should all pitch in and get the site license and set it up.

I personally believe that a member should be able to sell anything they want to in any way they see fit to as ling as it is not illegal or violate the rules of this forum.


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## Ken Massingale (May 21, 2005)

I voted Yes, but do share the concerns of those who voted No. I have offered blanks at auction one time, basically because I'm as green as the Crabgrass growing in the yard, and had no idea of how to price them. Also, I haven't seen any 'real' abuse of the auctioning in the Classifieds.
However, I am going with Mudder's suggestion. I belong to the same 'other' forum, BT3Central, and the auction add-on is not intrusive at all to the Forum.
Ken


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## Mudder (May 21, 2005)

> _Originally posted by DCBluesman_
> <br />.....The back and forth of auctions really junks up the flow of information being shared....



I have to disagree with you Lou,

The forum (or sub forum) is member classifieds. I don't recall seeing much information exchanged it there. I don't use the rss thingy so maybe that is what you are speaking of? I just do not see where it hurts. Here is a scenario I would like to use for illustration of my point.

I check the forum in the morning when I get up, again when I get to work a little early, once again while Iâ€™m on my lunch break, and then at night after dinner. If a member posts a fixed price item at 9:03 in the morning it will be about 2 hours and 57 minutes before I see it and could be as much as 6 hours for someone on the west coast if they can only check at their lunch time. Yes, itâ€™s the luck of the draw but if it is an auction then I do get the chance to see it and decide for myself if I am willing to pay more than anyone else.
I lost on an auction recently because it ended while I was on my way home from work and I just did not bid high enough.

This is just a scenario to consider, it the attempt to have a nice respectful debate.


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## Ben (May 21, 2005)

I too agree that e-bay is for auctions. I have both sold and auctioned items through the individual classifieds section but truly favor the fixed price sale. 
With only needing an e-mail address and contact info to become a memeber of the I.A.P, I fear that eventually every E-BAy store owner that sells the exotic woods, will be setting up shop here to avoid paying any commissions that they would pay otherwise through E-BAY. I believe that THIS would greatly take away from what this club is about, and change the dynamics of how it operates.
Now with that said, "PLease don't ever let it come to that!" If it means no more auctions on the site, except for I.A.P club fundraising, then so be it. Let's just keep the integrity of this group and its database of "penturning" knowledge a priority. This is a group that I am truly proud to be a part of. 


Ben


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## jbyrd24 (May 21, 2005)

I originally voted no to all auctions, but the more I think about it if would benefit the IAP then in that case it would be fine 
with me[]


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## Woodbutcher68 (May 21, 2005)

I voted for IAP benefit only.
I'm near Chicago where the motto is "Vote early and vote often" so can I vote again?


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## wayneis (May 21, 2005)

I voted IAP only and this is something that I had already been thing of.  I don't think that we want to be running another ebay and I see an auction as just another way to make more money.  I thought that the classified was intended as a way to be able to sell off extras that we may have and help out our fellow members.  It is my opinion that if we allow auctions then it will not be long and this site will be know as THE place to sell pen related materials, not as the place to go for the sharing of information and education of this craft.

Wayne


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## Daniel (May 22, 2005)

I voted for IAP Benefit only as well. I do want to see materials available from this sight, or at least access to the suppliers as in links. and I appreciate the involvment many of the suppliers or there employees have here. But auctions are just a tad over the top for me.


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## wdcav1952 (May 22, 2005)

Wayne, 

I agree with you and Lou on this one.  With respect to auctions being missed due to differing time zones, I really think Darley is the main one to have a gripe there, along with our other overseas members.  Ebay is better suited for world-wide auctions as you can enter a maximum bid and not have to monitor each individual bid.

I joined here to learn about pen-turning, finishing, marketing and all things related to this art.  As a personal opinion, I question the value added to the group if we have members who join only to sell their wood here.  I definitely agree that buying the extras from a fellow turner is beneficial to both parties.  I have gotten great blanks in this way.  I simply do not want this site to turn into an "Ebay Junior."  Auctions to benefit the site, yes.  Auctions to benefit the seller, no.

Just curious, can you turn a pen from a soap box when you climb down from it?


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## ilikewood (May 22, 2005)

Did it once myself....won't do it again.  I just don't need to deal with the competition factor myself.  Although it went just fine, I can see the potential for a ton of problems with it.


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## Randy_ (May 22, 2005)

It's not clear to me exactly what the problems are that folks seem to think might be brought to IAP by having auctions.  I have not seen any real problem with the auctions that have been held so far.  Someone did mention clogging up the board with a lot of back an forth posts......seems to me that if there were a requirement that the title identify the thread as an auction then those who didn't want to fool with them could just ignore those posts.    

As to the comments suggesting the IAP classified was supposed to be only for folks who needed to get rid of excess or surplus supplies and such, that "ideal" has clearly been ignored already by many and if such an "ideal" was an IAP policy, it certainly has not been enforced. 

One easy way to deal with the issue would be to allow auctions conditionally for a specific period of time(6 months, maybe) and then evaluate how they impact IAP.  If they turn out to be a problem, then prohibit them or if they need a few rules to make them work, enact some controls.  

Personally, I really don't care about auctions; but for those who do want them, why not give it a trial to see how it works out??


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## ctEaglesc (May 22, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Randy._
> <br />It's not clear to me exactly what the problems are that folks seem to think might be brought to IAP by having auctions.  I have not seen any real problem with the auctions that have been held so far.  Someone did mention clogging up the board with a lot of back an forth posts......seems to me that if there were a requirement that the title identify the thread as an auction then those who didn't want to fool with them could just ignore those posts.
> 
> As to the comments suggesting the IAP classified was supposed to be only for folks who needed to get rid of excess or surplus supplies and such, that "ideal" has clearly been ignored already by many and if such an "ideal" was an IAP policy, it certainly has not been enforced.
> ...



Someone put a mark on the wall!Get a marker and record this date!
Randy and I agree on something!

The back and forth of auctions really junks up the flow of information being shared. Plus, there's already an auction site...eBay! I fear that the more auctions we allow the more cluttered the site will become, taking away from the educational value of the site.

If you think of the site as a newspaper, some read the editorials(educational) some read the classifieds(Buisness)
some read the funnies(more eduacational)
I have in the past made many complaints about the amount of sub forums on this site and not having the time to look at them all.
I tried the RSS feed but needed to turn of internet security or change a complicated(for me setting) to have it work properly.
I have since learned to use the "viewed since" feature in active topics.
Anyway, during Lou's tenure the classifieds has been condensed and there is not as much activity in the swap section.
If an item for sale is marked as an aution it will give more people the opportunity to acquire it rather the first to get see it and bid.
I don't take part in many auctions but I do see the benifit for the buyer as well as the seller.
If an aution ends late and I want the item, I guess I will have to stay up late that nite.
Another feature would be to have the bids go by P.M. to the seller.
No clutter on the board put in your highest bid, you get it fine you don't, well you did make YOUR highest bid.

Lastly make the classifides for individuals, no pay pal,or payment services,(that would keep buisnesses to a minimum)and only for IAP members.
(you would have to be an IAP member to send the bid by PM)


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## MDWine (May 22, 2005)

My only comment is that there should be a "recap" during the course of the thread that the 'auctioneer' lets us know who is in the lead. (This is usually done, I suppose.) I don't want to read four pages of the thread to find out that the price had prgressed out of reach.

I do like the fact that we reduce the community to which the acution servers, meaning that I have fewer bids to compete with, and improve my chances.  With that in mind, I like it.  I dislike it when I don't get what I want! (wwhhaaaaa [!] LOL)

Personally, I think we're doing OK as it is, I would not like to see it turn into an ebay-like site.


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## wayneis (May 22, 2005)

Well Mike, It's already headed there.  Ever sense we had the auctions for the IAP benbfit we have had them running almost all of the time.  Some individuals who used to sell now mostly do auctions and I have seen a couple people all of a sudden show up only in the Auction site.  I can see the temtation to do auctions, after all the seller stands a chance to make a much better deal.  But it's my thought that we all belong to the IAP to help each other out.  I don't mind members selling because to date most sales have been at reduced prices but now with auctions, well some are now making some pretty good money.  I don't begrudge anyone making a living but if thats what is wanted then there already is Ebay and the wood site that was started up a couple months ago.

Wayne

Personally, I think we're doing OK as it is, I would not like to see it turn into an ebay-like site.
[/quote]


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## Old Griz (May 22, 2005)

_"Lastly make the classifides for individuals, no pay pal,or payment services,(that would keep buisnesses to a minimum)"_
There are a lot of members who use paypal or other payment for personal use, so banning the use of paypal does not make sense... 
I do agree that anyone selling in the classified area needs to be a registered member of IAP.  
There is a business classified section for those doing business to members of the IAP.. so the classified sections should be individuals only.


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## Mudder (May 22, 2005)

> _Originally posted by wayneis_
> <br />....... It is my opinion that if we allow auctions then it will not be long and this site will be know as THE place to sell pen related materials, not as the place to go for the sharing of information and education of this craft .
> 
> Wayne



Very good point Wayne,

If we are to be known as the place to go for the sharing of information and education of this craft then we should not have a classifieds section at all. Not an individual classified nor a business classified. Looking through the membership roll I see that two of our "business classified" members only post their sales and nothing else. Does this add to the sharing of information and education of this craft? Who benefits by this? The member who gets tha sale price and the seller who gets the profit. I see no benefit to the IAP here.

I have never put up an auction but I have bid on many and I fail to see where it hurts the IAP at all. One would probably be able to get a higher price if they did auction their stuff off on ebay but I don't see where that benefits the IAP either. I suspect that many of the guys that put things up for sale or auction were rather large donors in our campaign to raise money for the new server.

I am noticing that this debate and poll have been going on for a few days now and it has not degraded to a name calling session or flame war and that is a credit to our membership and moderators, we certainly do have a unique group. One of two really great forums that I belong to.

I would like to just think out loud and give a list of some possible solutions:


Pony up the $500.00 site license and get the xcent module that I mentioned before.
(put out the call for funds again)

Limit the number of auctions a member can put up in a week, and enforce it.
(Just as the number of classified posts are supposed to be limited)

Make the classified section not show up on the forum list and have it available as a separate link. 
(Can this be done?)

Charge a small fee to post auctions.
(it would be on the honor system)

Ban auctions, classifieds, business classifieds, and all forms of advertising, including a link to your website in your signature file.  
(After all, I fail to see where a link to oneâ€™s website where things are sold has anything to do with the sharing of information and education of this craft.)

Is my last thought exterme? I think so. It would be a sad day if it happened but it is the only way to be "fair" to everyone. There has to be some latitude in this forum. I trust that our "benevolent dictator", (as Lou so eloquently stated it), and the team of moderators that he has chosen are already on the case and will as always do what is best for the group as a whole.


Respectfully Sudmitted,

Scott


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## jeff (May 22, 2005)

Interesting poll and discussion. I have not considered this issue before, so I appreciate you all taking the time to vote and comment. Just seeing Eagle agree with Randy makes this whole topic a success []

I thought that the IAP benefit auctions were a great idea, but I'm surprised that they have become so popular for private sales. For reasons others have pointed out, a discussion forum is really a poor format in which to run an auction. I can envision some scenarios that could generate hard feelings. 

If we continue to allow private auctions, we obviously need to make some changes.  At the very least, they need their own forum that is excluded from the RSS feed and post count. I'd consider looking into a separate auction module, but given the existance of eBay and other places, I see that as reinventing the wheel. 

We'll let the poll run for a while and see where it ends up.


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## ctEaglesc (May 22, 2005)

OUr benevolent dictator(Jeff) said:
"Interesting poll and discussion. I have not considered this issue before, so I appreciate you all taking the time to vote and comment. Just seeing Eagle agree with Randy makes this whole topic a success "


Note change of color to discern different person(me) and adding a bit of meekness while I make a minor point.
I posted my reply to this yesterday. Technically Randyis agreeing with me.A minor point  but I thought I would bring it up[]


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## hobby_dale (May 22, 2005)

Maybe auctions should only be allowed by folks who have posted a certain about of times (i.e. a certain amount of stars)?  Just a thought...


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## ctEaglesc (May 22, 2005)

> _Originally posted by hobby_dale_
> <br />Maybe auctions should only be allowed by folks who have posted a certain about of times (i.e. a certain amount of stars)?  Just a thought...



You're kidding. right?( there is no smiley that can show me laghing so hard I almost fell off my chair)


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## opfoto (May 22, 2005)

I voted for IAP benefit only.

 If I want to buy wood, I buy direct. If I wanted to buy thru an auction I would go to ebay. No offense meant to anyone. Part of the K.I.S.S. theory.


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## Darley (May 22, 2005)

Very interesting Poll, I vote yes for the IAP benefit, because is how the Auction(s) started if some people remember when Jeff ask on this site help from us to support the IAP site, I saw people doing auction and asking the winner to pay Jeff directly for donation and they paying the shipping ( nothing gain for them but they generosity keep the site a live ).

So maybe I'm to long in business but I see that auctions or item for sale should be in business classified, some rules should be drawn, Yahoo Penturners put one day ( Tuesday ) for business related item, I think a way to put everyone a fair chance to see and to bid on an item should be done in weekend ( only) or other days, limit of 2 or 3 auctions per weekend per seller, seller should post pictures of the blanks with full description and shipping charge ( as they do now )as well as a starting fair price, a full description of method of payment ( accept credit card, money order, Pay-Pal ect....).

Now my business side, I think that all sellers should give a 10% or 15% ( auction(s) or not auction(s), we can open another poll for that )commission fee to Jeff going toward the maintenance of the IAP site, after all that how started the auctions []

Someone stated no Pay-Pal, well I not agree with this as I can use only Pay-Pal, if I put some blanks in auction I will accept only Pay-Pal ( can't accept private cheque and money order, as my bank here will charge me AU$ 8.00 fee to cash in the money order ).

Serge


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## hobby_dale (May 23, 2005)

eagle, yes I was kidding...thought a little levity was good for the situation at the time...


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## vick (May 24, 2005)

I voted that they should be allowed, because I would always like for people to have the freedom to do what they want as long as it is not hurting anyone.  With that being said I personally do not like the auctions and will never buy anything on this site from an auction.


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## BogBean (May 24, 2005)

I think we should allow auctions but ask for a donation for each sale to the IAP...


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## ctEaglesc (May 24, 2005)

> _Originally posted by hobby_dale_
> <br />eagle, yes I was kidding...thought a little levity was good for the situation at the time...



WHEW!had me goin that time!


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## whatwoodido (May 25, 2005)

Personally, I don't care all that much either way, but I don't think they are that harmful.  They benefit those members that are infrequent visitors to the site, which I think trumps the clutter concern.  

It ain't broken, so let's not fix it.  Though I would like to see some auction guidelines.


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## Ryan (Jun 2, 2005)

I am not in favor of the auctions. The only time I would be is if it is to help IAP. Such as when we were helping to get the new server.

With regards to auctions, most of the time when something sales it is usually sold in the last few minutes. People throw out low ball figures the first 3-4 days and then come in at the real price the last day and even the last few minutes. This makes no sense.

We all know what good wood costs why not just stick a price on it and sale it?


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## melogic (Jun 5, 2005)

I see both sides of this issue. Personally, I like the idea of auctions that will benefit the IAP and all others should take it to eBay, or just post "for sale" items in the classified sections.


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## mtnguy (Jun 12, 2005)

Super idea.
There are gpl (free) scripts that will easily handle this. The fee apparatus can funnel funds directly to the IAP.
As a twist (no pun intended) new sellers would be required to donate a pen or two to be auctioned- proceeds going entirely to the IAP.

This creates a level playing field, as you are no bigger than your output of product.
Just PM me if you need any assistance with putting this in place..


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## mtnguy (Jun 12, 2005)

At over 1300 potential sellers, this could generate all sorts of traffic to off-site shops where prices could reflect what you want for pens.

Sellers are already putting this tactic to good use on eBay. The only overall benefit to the IAP is funding generated by auction fees.


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