# Dayacom Group Buy



## Mapster (Aug 20, 2010)

I have found a dayacom group buy is impractical. The thread did not go in the direction I planned. A group buy from Gary in Australia is a possibility, but dayacom is out of the picture. It was a good discussion


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## Greg O'Sherwood (Aug 20, 2010)

IF this happened, it may be easier to have one person in each area be the receiver/distributor for everone around them. For example, have everyone's kits in the Kansas City area go to one person and those folks all meet up to divy them out. This would make the job easier on the group buy organizer(s).



Definitely interested, but would this be just covering the high end kits that we don't want to see disappear, or all Dayacom kits?

.


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## dhammis (Aug 20, 2010)

Depending on the kit(s) purchased I may be interested.


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## Mapster (Aug 20, 2010)

That is the beauty of it! We could buy any kit they sell that enough of us are interested in. If we want 250 of any kit, we could buy it also.


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## lazylathe (Aug 20, 2010)

I am interested.
Not sure if this is just for the States or for us Canadians too?

Andrew


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## Mapster (Aug 20, 2010)

Anyone who would want some kits at a discounted price. You would have to pay for your own international shipping. All the kits would go to one person, and everyone would pay that person to ship the kits to them.


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## maxwell_smart007 (Aug 20, 2010)

Perhaps a better way to approach this would be to call or write to CSUSA or other Dayacom distributors, and explain that you'd like to see them continue to carry this kit.  If they have large enough numbers asking about it, then they might be persuaded to bring the kit back. 

Andrew


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## Mapster (Aug 20, 2010)

The thing is though, Maxwell, then we have a middle man out for a profit. That jacks up the price greatly. If we have enough people interested, why tell them and let them raise the prices when we can get all the kits we want at the discounted price.


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## maxwell_smart007 (Aug 20, 2010)

Just that the middle man then assumes the risk for the inevitable damaged kits, as well as laying out the money to order the kits and not having to worry about any of the troubles that will arise...or it takes longer than usual.

Many times, these international purchases end up taking much longer than expected, with a few extra unexpected hiccups.


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## Mapster (Aug 20, 2010)

Thus far we have 5 people interested, lets say maybe we reach 50, then it starts getting realistic and we can start crunching some numbers. EVERYONE interested must vote and say they are interested to get this going.


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## Mapster (Aug 20, 2010)

No matter how long it takes, we could stock up for a year worth of turning if we buy enough kits. With the size of the buy I am thinking we could do, possibly 200-1000 people, we could take the hit of the damaged kits. We could get maybe 100 extra and if there are 20 damaged, we would have 80 to divy up amongst those who helped the most.


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## Monty (Aug 20, 2010)

Only problem is Dayacom will not deal with individuals, only businesses. 
And please give the source for your first Fact.


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## Mapster (Aug 20, 2010)

So far it is 3/4 interested to 1/4 not. If 3/4 of us that make these high end pens participate, we would have astronomical power in numbers. probably 1000+ people.


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## Mapster (Aug 20, 2010)

We could have one business that would do the dealing. We all give that business person our money and that person gathers it up and makes the deal. That first fact is what I keep seeing come up in every Dayacom post. I am not 100% sure it is true, but that is what many members have said, I am trusting them.


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## Mapster (Aug 20, 2010)

Here is how I planned it. Lets say we work with, just an example, not to be taken literally, but lets say we get ed4copies with exotic blanks to work with us. I say I want 10 jr emperors. We get everyone involved and there is a total of 780 jr emperors. Ed talks with Dayacom and finds the price would be $18 a piece for the jr emperors. I would then send Ed $180 for my share plus $5 for shipping. Everyone else would send him money for their share. He will have collected $14,040 for the kits. he would then send that to Dayacom. The rest he would keep to use for shipping the pens to us. He would work with a local chapter to share the work, and we would each be nice and send an extra $5 for their services. Overall, I would spend $190 and get $180 worth of kits, and we would make Ed's time worthwhile.


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## JBCustomPens (Aug 20, 2010)

Check out this poll.

http://www.penturners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=66485


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## Rojo22 (Aug 20, 2010)

As having been the participant of many a group buy, and having actually purchased from China directly myself, you will need to be realistic when estimating shipping and handling, and also be prepared for some importing headaches, if you dont already have that part figured out.  I would be interested in purchasing some kits, depending on what was ordered.


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## Parson (Aug 20, 2010)

CSUSA discontinued all those expensive, bulky, and very Asian looking designs for a reason... low sales.

I indicated in the poll I would participate but now that I saw the other poll and what they've discontinued, I'm not interested. They're all way too gaudy and cheesy looking to me (just my personal opinion).


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## Mapster (Aug 20, 2010)

We can order anything you want. We can only estimate realistically after enough people respond to this thread saying they want in. That poll will help a lot JB. The two of them go hand in hand. Good idea.


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## Mapster (Aug 20, 2010)

Parson, don't be discouraged. We can get anything. You personally don't have to get the expensive, bulky, and very Asian looking designs even if other people do. You could get some majestics, or statemans, it doesn't have to be discontinued. We would be able to get statesmans for a discount, probably much cheaper than CSUSA's quantity discounts even.


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## witz1976 (Aug 20, 2010)

I am not interested mostly because of:

A. I never made any of these styles before so I have no clue if they would sell well or not.

B. I agree 100% with Monty on this one.  I do not want to take over the job of our distributors.  It is their job to stock hundreds of kits in all the colors.  Not ours.  If there are so many people who want this but demand a lower price tell THEM.  If they knew that we wanted to buy 1000 kits at a time wouldn't you think they would love to sell us that? There was previous mention of working with Ed & Dawn on this this is great and all, but why not work with CSUSA?  They have the deeper pockets to perhaps make this work, Not to say that Ed & Dawn don't (i really have no clue) but this may be something they may not even be interested in yet. (Although I know Ed will insert his .02 worth, and look forward to it)


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## Mapster (Aug 20, 2010)

I was using Ed and Dawn as an example because everyone knows them, that was not being literal. If there was a sure-fire way to convince CSUSA to carry what we want at reasonable prices, that would be a much easier solution to our problem. I am not sure if they will do that for us though, so this is just another idea. That is a good idea also, and if enough of us are interested in this group buy, we can first contact CSUSA with that proposition.


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## sefali (Aug 20, 2010)

I'd be interested, but only for items not for sale by US distributors. I really think it's a bad idea to bypass our retailers in such a small niche market as pen components. For items that are not already for sale, great, but not for items that are still being sold by CSUSA, Ed, WoodTurningz..... In such a small market, that might cause too much damage. One of the reasons I think Dyacom won't sell to individuals.


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## Mapster (Aug 20, 2010)

That is true Sefali. We would definitely have to get our venders in on the plan and get their approval.


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## glycerine (Aug 20, 2010)

Monty said:


> Only problem is Dayacom will not deal with individuals, only businesses.
> And please give the source for your first Fact.


 
Are you sure? Because I think they may be getting desperate. I sent them an email the other day asking for a list of resellers because I was interested in the Imperial (Bamboo) and CSUSA no longer carried it. What they sent back was pricing info. See below. They seem to be very eager to do business considering that's not even what I asked them for!

-----------------------------------------------------------------
_*Email contents:*_

Dear Mr. Jeremy Phillips,

Thanks your enquiry of our Bamboo (Imperial) pens.

Please find our attachment file for our offer for Bamboo Rollerball/Fountain pen kits at Rhodium/22k and
Rhodium/Black Titanium for your order's decision.

The minimum order's quantity must be 500pcs each, so that we can arrange it into our production
accordingly.

Let us know if we could be of any further service to you.

Kind regards,

Sabina Hsu / Secretary,
www.dayacom.com.tw


-----------------------------------------------------------------
*Excel attachment contents:*

DAYACOM INDUSTRIAL CO.,LTD.
TO: Jeremy Phillips quotation
DATE: AUGUST,19,2010 UNIT/PRICE 
PARTS NUMBER DESCRIPTION MOQ FOB TAIWAN 
131-4181 BAMBOO ROLLERBALL PEN KIT RHODIUM/22K 500 US$29.35 
131-4182 BAMBOO FOUNTAIN PEN KIT RHODIUM/22K 500 US$33.30 
131-4183 BAMBOO ROLLERBALL PEN KIT RHODIUM/BLACK TITANIUM 500 US$23.50 
131-4184 BAMBOO FOUNTAIN PEN KIT RHODIUM/BLACK TITANIUM 500 US$27.50 



SHIPMENT WITHIN 45-50 DAYS AFTER RECEIPT OF YOUR WIRE 
TRANSFER PAYMENT IN ADVANCE. 


DAYACOM INDUSTRIAL CO., LTD. 


ANGUS LEE / PRESIDENT, 
AL/SC,


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## diamundgem (Aug 20, 2010)

I noticed on the dayacom site this pen is only 50 pieces http://www.dayacom.com.tw/product_02_limit.php?product_id=963&prod_item_id=17 
wonder what the cost is


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## Mapster (Aug 20, 2010)

Glycerine that is great news! That means that this could be more possible than I previously thought. Thanks for that info. 500 per pen type isn't bad. That is manageable.


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## killer-beez (Aug 20, 2010)

I'm in for the high end kits.......


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## glycerine (Aug 20, 2010)

Mapster said:


> Glycerine that is great news! That means that this could be more possible than I previously thought. Thanks for that info. 500 per pen type isn't bad. That is manageable.


 
Well, they may still refuse to sell to me (or any other "individual"), but it seems more promising since they sent me the info as if they are expecting an order from me.  
I just wanted to throw that out there, because I have always heard that you have to be a "re-seller" through them and they don't just deal with anyone.  But the email seems as if they are ready and willing.  It might just be that they don't have many resellers of that particular kit and are hoping that I will be the next one to pick it up from them... who knows.


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## Russianwolf (Aug 20, 2010)

Mapster said:


> Glycerine that is great news! That means that this could be more possible than I previously thought. Thanks for that info. 500 per pen type isn't bad. That is manageable.



That's not per type, its per type and plating. No mix and match.

So for the Bamboo you are looking at a minimum $11750+ shipping for just the BT Rollerball. If you want the BT Fountain $$13750+ shipping. 

If you want all for styles, $56,825+ shipping. It gets real expensive real fast, which is why Ed did the other poll and decided not to pursue. He and I had similar ideas around the same time for making a one stop shop for pen makers, and I've shared some of the ideas I've had with him where my concept differed. But one thing we agree on is we can not compete with the major players in this, we just don't have access to the capital to get it off the ground and sit there.


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## Mapster (Aug 20, 2010)

But they would be that much more likely to sell to one of us that have an actual business going even if it is a one person business.


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## Monty (Aug 20, 2010)

Another approach may be to contact Gary Pye Woodturning in Australia - http://gpwoodturning.sitesuitestore...?category_id=1107136753&product_id=1107458933 -
His prices are comparable to CSUSA (his prices are in Australian currency which is about 0.89 to 1 US dollar).
Whith the number of kits you are talking about, he may be willing to give aprice break.


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## Mapster (Aug 20, 2010)

Monty, that is yet another good idea. That could be good if we could get that going. The exchange would be a little strange though.


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## scotian12 (Aug 20, 2010)

If you look at the specials on Gary Pye's home page you will see that he is giving 20 % off until the end of August. That is on the high end kits we are looking for...Lotus, Statesman, Jr. statesman, emperor, Jr Emperor. Perhaps he would give you a special buy on other styles. You can still do a group buy to save on shipping but once you reship to an individual then the savings get eroded.I did a buy last month from Gary Pye and it only took a couple of weeks to reach me in Canada. I also saved a bit on the exchange. Darrell Eisner


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## Mapster (Aug 20, 2010)

Let me know if you guys are interested in buying from Gary


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## Mark (Aug 20, 2010)

It's worth a look. Going direct seems to be getting very involved.


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## steeler fan1 (Aug 20, 2010)

I would certainly be interested. Hope it can be put together.

Carl


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## glycerine (Aug 20, 2010)

Mapster said:


> Monty, that is yet another good idea. That could be good if we could get that going. The exchange would be a little strange though.


 
What do you mean?


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## jskeen (Aug 20, 2010)

Guys, this sounds like a great plan, and I'm all for buying a few kits when it happens, IF they are cheap enough, and IF the money comes due when I happen to have some spare cash.  But I gotta say, that's a very low value buy in for whoever the sucker... er um adventuresome individual is that decides to take this on.  My tentative commitment to buy a few kits if I can is not going to move the needle very far on the minimum order guage.  Counting hands that get raised to get in on a good deal is pretty easy.  Getting paid can be harder.  Don't get me wrong, We're a good bunch of people here, I don't think anybody would try to abuse the system, but you know, Stuff Happens!  

Some things to think about.  

How do you plan to move all this money around?  Paypal?  I Think you will find that get's more expensive than you think, and can cause headaches with the Infernal Revenue Service if you're not careful.

Who's going to deal with the customs and importation headaches and costs.  Those things have a nasty habit of going up at the last minute, when it's difficult to recoup them.  

Who's going to spend the time to set up the deal with China.  Really?  You done that before?  You got a day job?  You enjoy sleeping at night rather than being on the phone at 3am?  Good luck!  

We seem to be working under the assumption that the people who usually make and sell a bunch of these, will order a bunch.  But, Will they?  It's been known for a while that these kits are going out of stock at CS.  Did they stock up before they were gone?  When will they need more?  Anytime soon?  

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see this thing fly, I'll be happy to help with the sort and pack for my area if it's close enough, and all that jazz, but I just don't want somebody to jump in and start this thing, take a bunch of orders and money, and then figure out that it's harder, takes longer and costs more than they've got in patience, time and cash.


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## jeff (Aug 20, 2010)

A question on the design of the poll. Why does it matter who is not interested? Educate me on why that's important.


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## timcbs (Aug 20, 2010)

Hi, I buy from Taiwan all of the time and have one of my suppliers asking me if I wanted to buy pen kits direct, I am sure it is from Dayacom, keep in mind when you import from Taiwan you must have a Bonded Agent and I do also you have to pay Taxes and Duties.


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## Mapster (Aug 20, 2010)

Jeff, I threw that in because it made sense at the time when I was hurrying to start the thread. Jskeen, my day job is school, and I was planning on someone else to think it was a good idea and take over. I don't have the resources or time to carry this out, it was an idea that had to be thrown out on the table. I don't think it would even be legal for me to work with customs and such. I threw out the idea, now it is up to you guys to decide what to do with it. I think a group buy from Gary is very possible and should be set up, personally. It solves all of the big problems, and I am sure he would give a pretty deep discount if we get the numbers going. Plus with 20% off if we do it in August. Lets get that going for everyone's benefit.


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## wolftat (Aug 20, 2010)

It looks to me like the 5 facts you have listed appear to be opinions. Please double check you sources. I'm sure your intentions are honorable and well intended but there is a whole lot of information you need to research before you plan something like this.


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## Monty (Aug 20, 2010)

Unless someone wants to step up and do a GB on these, I think we are beating a dead horse.
And *please* PM me before you start taking orders.


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## Smitty37 (Aug 20, 2010)

*Bonded Agent*



timcbs said:


> Hi, I buy from Taiwan all of the time and have one of my suppliers asking me if I wanted to buy pen kits direct, I am sure it is from Dayacom, keep in mind when you import from Taiwan you must have a Bonded Agent and I do also you have to pay Taxes and Duties.


 
Bonded agent can be easily found, there are some located near every international airport and will arrange everything you need including ground shipping if you can't or don't want to pick it up.  In addition, if you pay for express shipping via DHL/TNT/UPS you don't need an separate agent, they will do it for you.  You are still required to pay any duties and customs fees.  Buying in large quantities having your own agent can well be cheaper.


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## wolftat (Aug 20, 2010)

Monty said:


> I think we are beating a dead horse.
> .


 I have a 5 gallon bucket of horse tenderizer just waiting. :biggrin:


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## WHSKYrvr1 (Aug 20, 2010)

I'd like to purchase some other than PSI kits...


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## Smitty37 (Aug 20, 2010)

*Yup*



wolftat said:


> It looks to me like the 5 facts you have listed appear to be opinions. Please double check you sources. I'm sure your intentions are honorable and well intended but there is a whole lot of information you need to research before you plan something like this.


Amen!!!!


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## phillywood (Aug 20, 2010)

Mapster, I respect your intentions, when school start next week are you going to pursue this? have you ever gone and dealt with big guys form china? iN doing commerce with out of the country folks you have a lot of issues that you have to take into considerations. In addition, You haven't established the fact that if any local chapters would even be up for such responsibilities. they don't get paid and everything is on volunteer basis. When a vendor or distributor resells and item it's because they also figure out their profit and the over heads. Our group buy can not overcome that. Provided that Dayacom would even talk to us.


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## Smitty37 (Aug 20, 2010)

*A lot*



diamundgem said:


> I noticed on the dayacom site this pen is only 50 pieces http://www.dayacom.com.tw/product_02_limit.php?product_id=963&prod_item_id=17
> wonder what the cost is


 That is a rather high priced completed pen...not a kit.


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## bitshird (Aug 20, 2010)

Smitty37 said:


> diamundgem said:
> 
> 
> > I noticed on the dayacom site this pen is only 50 pieces http://www.dayacom.com.tw/product_02_limit.php?product_id=963&prod_item_id=17
> ...



I would venture a guess at about 260.00 to 325.00 a pen. it does sport an 18kt Gold nib,


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## bitshird (Aug 20, 2010)

Mapster, the capitol required to do a buy like you are suggesting would be in the 20 to 30 thousand dollar range, FOB your house. That would most likely get you 2 different plating's on 2 models of High end Fountains and Rollerball kits, They won't deal less than 5oo piece lots each plating each type. Not necessarily the Emperors and stuff but they have some butt kicking kits.


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## Smitty37 (Aug 20, 2010)

*Group buy*

I don't have any skin in this game because I don't sell any high end kits and wouldn't participate in a group buy of them, so I can give you an unbiased opinion.  Forget a group buy involving more than one style and forget doing a direct buy from an overseas source..

first, you won't get any better price if you buy a half dozen styles than if you buy one....
second, forget any idea of 1000 members participating, that ain't gonna happen and if you have ever tried to deal with keeping track of something for 25 or 50 people you understand that you don't want to mess with more than that....
third, you will have  one member needing to keep track of a bunch of other peoples money and with high end kits that could be a big stack of money at that...
fourth, you are going to be moving a lot of money; you pay via paypal 3% charge on every transaction $3.20 for $100 for most it is charged to the receiver of the funds but the buyer has to pay it.  That only gets the money as far as the member coordinator, then there is a charge to transfer the funds to the overseas about 4% more depending on how you do it, direct wire transfer might be a little less but would give a foreign source access to the coordinators bank account... 
fifth, that money is going to pass through the hands of a person and if they happen to get audited by the IRS they better understand the tax consequences.  Uncle Sam can be very unforgiving about things. 
sixth, the coordinator better know enough about customs and importing to not run afoul of the "rules" for instance the importer is responsible for labeling them "Made in China" or "Made in Taiwan" not the exporter.  They will label them for you at an added cost.  That applies whether you import directly from there or indirectly from another country.  In fact, it applies even if you just want to resell a few kits that you buy from one of our Australian suppliers.  What you use yourself doesn't have to be labeled but what you sell does. It is not overly difficult to get things through customs, if you know how to do it or if you pay the shipping company to do it for you but it's easy to run afoul of the rules.

Given all that, I would suggest that you keep all group buys to dealing with a US importer who already has dealings with the company you want to buy from.  Otherwise folks, you are opening a can of worms I don't think most of you will want to deal with.  My opinion.


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## Smitty37 (Aug 20, 2010)

*yep*



bitshird said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > diamundgem said:
> ...


 
I would guess that is about what their price is to the "agent" they are looking for....


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## Smitty37 (Aug 20, 2010)

*Business*

As an afterthought, I can't imagine anyone with a business coordinating a group buy.  I try to be honest on my business taxes and coordinating a group buy would be a real can of worms --- all that money running through my business accounts without the intent of making a profit??? Or, setting up separate accounts to handle it.  There might be a businessman out there somewhere who will do that but I sure wouldn't be that guy.


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## Monty (Aug 20, 2010)

Smitty37 said:


> I don't have any skin in this game because I don't sell any high end kits and wouldn't participate in a group buy of them, so I can give you an unbiased opinion.  Forget a group buy involving more than one style and forget doing a direct buy from an overseas source..
> 
> first, you won't get any better price if you buy a half dozen styles than if you buy one....
> second, forget any idea of 1000 members participating, that ain't gonna happen and if you have ever tried to deal with keeping track of something for 25 or 50 people you understand that you don't want to mess with more than that....
> ...


Smitty,
I think you have very well summed up the pitfalls of doing a GB from overseas.


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## ed4copies (Aug 20, 2010)

There are people here (other than me) who could run such a purchase.  But, in general, I agree with Smitty.

Also, the ONLY way you will get something to work is to find a number of participants who will buy EXACTLY the SAME pen---style and RB *or* FP, NOT both.

And they will have to be willing to purchase without knowing the final cost.  Good luck with that!!


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## JMANNN (Aug 19, 2011)

I contacted Dayacom two days ago because I was having trouble locating their products to purchase and asked to buy direct in quantities I could handle.  They referred me to Smitty's Pen Works.  That helped me with the Emperor kit I wanted but not the rest of the styles I want that Smitty doesn't carry.  It's very difficult to get the "High End" stuff out of Dayacom.  I'd be up to the direct purchase but only if the retailers denied carrying the "Super High End" stuff first.  A direct purchase maybe the only way we get our hands on the super high end stuff from Dayacom.


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## JMANNN (Aug 19, 2011)

Now that I have read all the threads. Smitty are you up to carrying a few more of the high Dayacom Styles?  I know you have the Emperor.  Not sure if you have the Jr. Emperor but I'm interested in that and the Floral Classic.  I would diffidently take a few of those off your hands.


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## Daniel (Aug 19, 2011)

witz1976 said:


> I am not interested mostly because of:
> 
> A. I never made any of these styles before so I have no clue if they would sell well or not.
> 
> B. I agree 100% with Monty on this one.  I do not want to take over the job of our distributors.  It is their job to stock hundreds of kits in all the colors.  Not ours.  *If there are so many people who want this but demand a lower price tell THEM*.  If they knew that we wanted to buy 1000 kits at a time wouldn't you think they would love to sell us that? There was previous mention of working with Ed & Dawn on this this is great and all, but why not work with CSUSA?  They have the deeper pockets to perhaps make this work, Not to say that Ed & Dawn don't (i really have no clue) but this may be something they may not even be interested in yet. (Although I know Ed will insert his .02 worth, and look forward to it)



actually most of their kits have a 500 piece minimum order. some are more like 200 or 250.

I have told them and the answer is no, they are not interested.

In short it seems much of this thread is based upon "What we want to do we can do" assumptions. Also not true. It also seems to me that has already been discovered.

I do recommend to anyone thinking of organizing a group buy that you do the leg work first. Get answers to questions before you answer the questions of others. In my experience two e-mails to Dayacom would tell you all you need to know. The first would be answered with a fairly nice explanation of why they are not interested. The second would be ignored permanently. I have gone through it twice. Dayacom is interested in protecting its relationship with its current customers.

Dayacom sells some of the most popular products that we use. If a group buy could be done it would have been done long ago. I know I would have done it.

As for the idea that a business owner will use there ability to facilitate a group buy. Group buys are competition. Also ordering products to sell them is what they do to make money, I am not sure they would be to excited about doing it for free. a 5 dollar per order mark up is not exactly profits either, maybe if all they have to do is place the final order and have it shipped to someone for repacking and shipping. I would not allow my business reputation to be tied to any such plan. Sorry but a good reputation is a hard thing to come by and a bad reputation is even harder to get rid of.


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## Smitty37 (Aug 19, 2011)

JMANNN said:


> Now that I have read all the threads. Smitty are you up to carrying a few more of the high Dayacom Styles? I know you have the Emperor. Not sure if you have the Jr. Emperor but I'm interested in that and the Floral Classic. I would diffidently take a few of those off your hands.


 
I just had an offer out for Jr. Emperor and it failed to attract enough interest.  I'll probably offer it again around October.  

The truth is that I can only work the ones that Dayacom will sell in retail quantities of 30 and 50 kit orders, and then only if there are enough buyers.  

While I am a business and Dayacom will sell to me wholesale.  I have never had an offer approach the 300 to 500 kits I would need to get Dayacom to sell to me wholesale. I can't order $15K to $30K worth of kits unless most of them are sold.  Dayacom will not mix and match if they have an MOQ of 300 --- 299 of one kit and 1 of another won't get you there.


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## JMANNN (Aug 20, 2011)

Smitty, I understand.  Just frustrating for me.  I key on the High End market and I've made everything out there from the the big retailers to death.  Customers want to see new product, styles, etc.  That Floral Job from Dayacom would be the answer.  If you still want to move that JR. Emperor PM me and we'll work it out.  I'll need a set of bushings if you have them as well.  I'll take an Emperor with a set of bushings along with it.


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