# Quality vs Luxury



## Smitty37

Let's forget pen kits from China and Taiwan for a minute and think about what constitutes Quality.

Let me give you a little back ground...for 32 years I was a Test Tecnician and Test Engineer for a large corporation and product testing (which is what I was involved with) is strictly a Quality Control field.  So my background is closely related to this issue.

We had to reach some decisions on what "quality" is - and in the end price did not go into the equation.  Conformance to requirements (specifications) is the only issue when determining whether an item is high quality or not.

The specifications themselves should describe whether the item is (say) "good", "better" or "best" ... using automobiles as an example:  If I take a Mercedes advertised and spec'd to do 150 miles an hour on the highway and a VW Beetle spec'd to do 80 mph and I test drive them both and the Mercedes dose 128 and the Beetle does 82...with respect to speed the Beetle is the higher quality car...it exceeded its spec while the Mercedes did not meet its spec.  The Mercedes is still a "better" car from the standpoint of luxury but it is not a higher quality car.

The same is true of the pens you make...how much you pay for the blank has very little to do with how well you turn and finish it.  You can do an outstanding job with fit and finish and still have an ugly pen and you can do a mediocre job and still have a great looking pen....which is the higher quality?  Well if you put tight spec's on your fit and finish as many of you do, the ugly pen meets the spec and the beauty doesn't...the ugly pen is the higher quality, but still might be worth a lot less.  Beauty sells.

Now, with pen kits....some are manufactured to sell with in a price range...and the specifications are designed to call for components that will work but still allow them to sell in the price range.  So the transmissions should turn the pen in and out reliably but perhaps not as smoothly and perhaps not for as many operations as a "better" kit.  If a cap is supposed to screw on and off, it should screw on and off reliably but perhaps not as smoothly as a more expensive "better" kit.  The finish should look like it is supposed to look, no scratches, missing plating etc. but it may well not look as highly polished and refined as a "better" kit.  

So what the turner needs to do is determine what his/her goals are..if you want to be know as a "great" pen maker who's pens sell for hundreds of dollars or you want to be considered an "artist" rather than a "craftsman"
you will probably want to choose luxury in your selection of materials.  If like me you want to have a bit of fun in your shop turning a nice piece of wood into a pretty nice looking pen you will probably chose lower priced materials.  Both choices make perfect sense.


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## terryf

Smitty while I do agree with you, being a quality manager myself, the trick it seems, is to be a manufacturer who establishes market requirements in terms of beauty and then manufactures the goods to the highest quality, irrespective of price.

Now if only we could find a pen kit manufacturer that complies with both these requirements we'd have a winner 

Ps. Chinese and quality are definitely not synonyms and dont even belong in the same book never mind sentence. (thats my opinion and Im sticking to it)


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## ed4copies

terryf said:


> Smitty while I do agree with you, being a quality manager myself, the trick it seems, is to be a manufacturer who establishes market requirements in terms of beauty and then manufactures the goods to the highest quality, irrespective of price.
> 
> Now if only we could find a pen kit manufacturer that complies with both these requirements we'd have a winner
> 
> Ps. Chinese and quality are definitely not synonyms and dont even belong in the same book never mind sentence. (thats my opinion and Im sticking to it)



25 years ago, we said the same thing about Japan.  How do you feel about them now?


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## bitshird

terryf said:


> Ps. Chinese and quality are definitely not synonyms and dont even belong in the same book never mind sentence. (thats my opinion and Im sticking to it)



 Please don't tell the three Chinese lathes in my shop that, they would be heart broken, I doubt if they would work any worse but they do many hours a day and still  run their butts off with very few problems but since they are used in a commercial environment who am I to say.


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## Smitty37

*Chinese and quality*



terryf said:


> Smitty while I do agree with you, being a quality manager myself, the trick it seems, is to be a manufacturer who establishes market requirements in terms of beauty and then manufactures the goods to the highest quality, irrespective of price.
> 
> Now if only we could find a pen kit manufacturer that complies with both these requirements we'd have a winner
> 
> Ps. Chinese and quality are definitely not synonyms and dont even belong in the same book never mind sentence. (thats my opinion and Im sticking to it)


 
The issue isn't about Chinese Quality....it is about what quality is.

I don't know about you but I am old enough to remember when "Made in Japan" was a synonym for "JUNK".  To a lesser degree the same think could have been said about "Made in Korea" and "Made in Taiwan".  

If you live in a house less than 10 years old, don't check your electrical system, because (all or nearly all) of it including circuit breakers, outlets, switches, junction boxes, outlet boxes and all the other things that you trust your life to every day will have been made in China.  

And so far, after 5 years of living in such a house I have had zero failures except for light bulbs.


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## terryf

Ed, perhaps in 25 years I'll change my opinion about "Made in China". Right now though, I stick to my opinion


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## snyiper

I always thought of quality as the way things are built you pay for the level you want. Luxury is above and beyond what is needed to function properly. Anything to make the operators life easier or faster, not at all related to quality although the two do interface quite often.


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## ed4copies

terryf said:


> Ed, perhaps in 25 years I'll change my opinion about "Made in China". Right now though, I stick to my opinion



They will produce the level of quality that their customers demand.  As long as we accept crap, they will provide it.

Recently, they had to replace a component (I can research exactly what, but it pertained to the kit that alleges to be the Jr Gent I, as I recall it).  As long as they are forced to do that when something goes wrong, their quality will improve.  Like early Japan, they understand "financial loss" better than any other words in English!!!


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## DCBluesman

I have a simple definition of quality - no variance. Deliver *on time*, *on spec* and *on price*.  My standards can be raised or lowered on any two of the variables and the supplier will determine the third. Once we reach an agreement, *deliver all three*. 

And FWIW, exceeding expectations is absurd.  There is an avoidable cost associated with exceeding rather than meeting expectations. That cost is waste.


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## Russianwolf

So in other words, if you set your expectations low and meet them, it's a quality product.


I don't think so. Quality isn't just about the specs of the product you are testing, its also relative to the specs of the competing products.

So yes, the Mercedes didn't meet its spec, and is poor quality compared to its spec, but the VW can't meet that spec either, and in fact was further from that spec, so can't be considered a better quality product.


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## ed4copies

DCBluesman said:


> exceeding expectations is absurd.  There is an avoidable cost associated with exceeding rather than meeting expectations. That cost is waste.




Everybody please send back your "Freebees"!!

:biggrin::biggrinSorry, Lou, I HAD to do it!!!):biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:


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## Smitty37

*Chinese and quality*



ed4copies said:


> 25 years ago, we said the same thing about Japan. How do you feel about them now?


 
As I said above...try to find something electrical (and the electrical items in my house are a lot more important to me than pen kits) for your house wiring that isn't made in China.


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## ThomJ

I have an aquaintance that has his product made in china, as long as his representative from the US is on the factory floor making spot QC checks things are fine, let him take time away from the factory & the product ends up with flaws. That being said, I have also seen that happen in US factories.


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## Smitty37

*Quality*



snyiper said:


> I always thought of quality as the way things are built you pay for the level you want. Luxury is above and beyond what is needed to function properly. Anything to make the operators life easier or faster, not at all related to quality although the two do interface quite often.


 
A car needs tires...tires can be designed to last 20000 miles or they can be designed to last 60000 miles .... quality is if they last as long as they are designed to last under normal driving conditions.... luxury is how many miles they are designed to last.

Quality is conformance to requiements as stated in the specifications.

Luxury is the level of performance stated in the requirements requirements


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## DCBluesman

Mike -

If I make an agreement to buy a Mercedes for $80,000 based on the spec that it must achieve a speed of 150 MPH and the supplier delivers a Mercedes that does not achieve a speed of 150 MPH then the quality has not been provided.  On the other hand, if I agree to buy a Volkswagen for $30,000 based on a spec that it must achieve a speed of 80 MPH and the supplier delivers a Volkswagen that goes 80 miles an hour then quality has been provided.  

I'm not saying the VW is better than the Mercedes, but in the first transaction I have every right as the customer to expect higher quality. The standard was not met.  In the second transaction, I have no valid complaints.  The standard was met.



Russianwolf said:


> So in other words, if you set your expectations low and meet them, it's a quality product.
> 
> 
> I don't think so. Quality isn't just about the specs of the product you are testing, its also relative to the specs of the competing products.
> 
> So yes, the Mercedes didn't meet its spec, and is poor quality compared to its spec, but the VW can't meet that spec either, and in fact was further from that spec, so can't be considered a better quality product.


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## ed4copies

Smitty37 said:


> As I said above...try to find something electrical (and the electrical items in my house are a lot more important to me than pen kits) for your house wiring that isn't made in China.



Well, let's evaluate that a bit.

The pen kits I use are incorporated into a "work of craftsmanship" that I will either present to a friend or loved one or I will sell to someone who expends funds, showing trust in my assurances that the product will last.

In short, MY REPUTATION rides on every pen.

ONE crappy component can (and HAS) lost me hundreds of dollars and significant loss of "pride" or "face".

Each pen maker has to determine what HIS comfort level is.  To ME, crappy components are unacceptable.  

The argument has been put forth that EVERY kit has had some failures.  That MAY be true, but the failure rate of most of the kits being made in China is still too high, for MY comfort level.

Smitty, you correctly assert that you have sold thousands of these.  You are also very forthright in that you have never promised high quality, so you cannot disappoint.  Your sales are based on low cost, with a higher, but acceptable failure rate.


FOR ME, that's too high a price.

And, again, there is room for both of our philosophies--I believe you will sell far MORE kits than I.  My customers, selling the components I choose, will make far more profit.  And they will protect THEIR reputation as craftsmen or artists.

To each his own.


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## Smitty37

*Wrong*



Russianwolf said:


> So in other words, if you set your expectations low and meet them, it's a quality product.
> 
> 
> I don't think so. Quality isn't just about the specs of the product you are testing, its also relative to the specs of the competing products.
> 
> So yes, the Mercedes didn't meet its spec, and is poor quality compared to its spec, but the VW can't meet that spec either, and in fact was further from that spec, so can't be considered a better quality product.


 
You are confusing quality and luxury....it the case I cited the VW is meeting its specification....The Mercedes is not, hence the VW is meeting the quality requirements and the Mercedes is not.  You send the Mercedes back and say fix it....you drive the VW home and put it in the garage.  If you go out to start your car in the morning and it doesn't start, it does not matter what you paid for it, it is not conforming to specifications and hence can't be said to be meeting its quality requirement.

Quality is not measured against the specification of a competeing product, nor can it be.  Conformance to requirements is the yardstick for quality...requirements do not usually include beating another items spec.


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## Wood Butcher

"I agreed with all of you".  How's that for MugWumpin, think I'll run for a government office on that slogan.  No, really, you are all correct in your thinking.  There is a book I have titled Six Thinking Hats that is useful in resolving "conflicts" of opinion, and other stuff.  
The facts: pen kits come in good, better and crap and at all prices, there is a buyer for every pen at the right price
The emotions:  I like making pens, it validates my efforts when someone gives me money for one and it fulfills my need to create, I must do the best I can do all the time (this is commonly caused by having been potty trained with a handgun)
The positive side: people will buy pens, people will buy pens at a price they can afford(justify), selling pens allows me to afford to make more pens.
The cautions/concerns: if I price my work too high I will sell one pen a month, I may end up with a big inventory and have to have a "garage sale" to get money to make more pens, if I sell them too cheap I'll lose money, if I sell too many too cheap it will become work and the fun will be displaced
The potential: if I make the pens well and design things others haven't thought of yet I may have an opportunity to grow a small business unique to the craft, as I become better accepted as a craftsman I can expand into other crafted objects, I could write a book, or at least a tutorial, and grow my reputation as a craftsman of integrity and knowledge
The sixth hat is the hat that referees the others so, in this case doesn't come into play.
And then there is always the discussion of, does form follow function or the other way around?


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## Smitty37

*Spot checks*



ThomJ said:


> I have an aquaintance that has his product made in china, as long as his representative from the US is on the factory floor making spot QC checks things are fine, let him take time away from the factory & the product ends up with flaws. That being said, I have also seen that happen in US factories.


 
Yep....in the 60's they used to tell us "Don't buy a car built on a Monday or a Friday"....and everybody "expected" to take their car back to the dealer to correct all the "little things" that got overlooked at the factory.  In the 70's the Japanese...headed by Toyota showed them the error of their ways and the most popular American made car is now a Toyota.


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## DCBluesman

Come on, Ed.  We both know that freebies, rebates, etc. are simply pricing strategies. 


ed4copies said:


> Everybody please send back your "Freebees"!!
> 
> :biggrin::biggrinSorry, Lou, I HAD to do it!!!):biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:


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## Russianwolf

DCBluesman said:


> Mike -
> 
> If I make an agreement to buy a Mercedes for $80,000 based on the spec that it must achieve a speed of 150 MPH and the supplier delivers a Mercedes that does not achieve a speed of 150 MPH then the quality has not been provided.  On the other hand, if I agree to buy a Volkswagen for $30,000 based on a spec that it must achieve a speed of 80 MPH and the supplier delivers a Volkswagen that goes 80 miles an hour then quality has been provided.
> 
> I'm not saying the VW is better than the Mercedes, but in the first transaction I have every right as the customer to expect higher quality. The standard was not met.  In the second transaction, I have no valid complaints.  The standard was met.



But in the original post, the claim was that the VW was HIGHER quality than the Benz. The problem is that while true to their individual specs, the specs aren't comparable. So, saying that statement is deceptive.



> example: If I take a Mercedes advertised and spec'd to do 150 miles an hour on the highway and a VW Beetle spec'd to do 80 mph and I test drive them both and the Mercedes dose 128 and the Beetle does 82...with respect to speed the Beetle is the higher quality car...it exceeded its spec while the Mercedes did not meet its spec. The Mercedes is still a "better" car from the standpoint of luxury but it is not a higher quality car




This is the reason that magazines throw specs out the window and compare vehicles based on performance in tests. They can then compare the results of the performance and determine the quality compared to one another.


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## DCBluesman

I'm not sure we can close this gap.  The claim is not that the car is better or the performance is better. The claim is that the quality is better.  If I paid $30,000 and got exactly what I asked for, I would certainly be more satisfied with the transaction than if I paid $80,000 and did not get what I asked for.  But that's just me.

Maybe we need to agree to disagree. 


Russianwolf said:


> But in the original post, the claim was that the VW was HIGHER quality than the Benz. The problem is that while true to their individual specs, the specs aren't comparable. So, saying that statement is deceptive.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is the reason that magazines throw specs out the window and compare vehicles based on performance in tests. They can then compare the results of the performance and determine the quality compared to one another.


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## Rick_G

ed4copies said:


> 25 years ago, we said the same thing about Japan.  How do you feel about them now?



That said my #1 choice is still made in Canada and my #2 is made in USA.  Case in point I bought a fan a couple years ago.  Cost me a little more than double the Chinese equiv.  but it moves more air on low than the Chinese one does on high and you can hardly hear it.  If I move it to high there is no contest and it still makes less noise.


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## Russianwolf

DCBluesman said:


> I'm not sure we can close this gap.  The claim is not that the car is better or the performance is better. The claim is that the quality is better.  If I paid $30,000 and got exactly what I asked for, I would certainly be more satisfied with the transaction than if I paid $80,000 and did not get what I asked for.  But that's just me.
> 
> Maybe we need to agree to disagree.



What if both are $30k?

Here's the definition that I use. 9.	( modifier ) having or showing excellence or superiority: a quality product


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## DCBluesman

Well, if I had an agreement that for $30,000 I would get a Mercedes that would reach 150MPH and was delivered a Mercedes that would not reach 150MPH I would feel the supplier shorted me.  He did not deliver what he promised.  Is the Mercedes a better car?  Probably.  Did the salesman do right by me? No. Am I a happy customer? No. 


Russianwolf said:


> What if both are $30k?


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## Smitty37

*Quality*



ed4copies said:


> Well, let's evaluate that a bit.
> 
> The pen kits I use are incorporated into a "work of craftsmanship" that I will either present to a friend or loved one or I will sell to someone who expends funds, showing trust in my assurances that the product will last.
> 
> In short, MY REPUTATION rides on every pen.
> 
> ONE crappy component can (and HAS) lost me hundreds of dollars and significant loss of "pride" or "face".
> 
> Each pen maker has to determine what HIS comfort level is. To ME, crappy components are unacceptable.
> 
> The argument has been put forth that EVERY kit has had some failures. That MAY be true, but the failure rate of most of the kits being made in China is still too high, for MY comfort level.
> 
> Smitty, you correctly assert that you have sold thousands of these. You are also very forthright in that you have never promised high quality, so you cannot disappoint. Your sales are based on low cost, with a higher, but acceptable failure rate.
> 
> 
> FOR ME, that's too high a price.
> 
> And, again, there is room for both of our philosophies--I believe you will sell far MORE kits than I. My customers, selling the components I choose, will make far more profit. And they will protect THEIR reputation as craftsmen or artists.
> 
> To each his own.


 
There is nothing in my philosophy that allows for junk...I believe that the finished product made with kits I sell for $1.50/$2.50 compare very well to kits costing twice that...my personal experience is the reason I started selling them.  

The failure rate in my experience has been very low which is why I sell them with an unconditional return warranty.  And, you can trust me on this, if I start getting too many of them back...I will stop selling them.

The fact that I sell as many as I do mostly to repeat customers means that there is a demand for my product and the the folks buying them are satisfied with the product.  I don't make second, third and forth purchases of products I don't like....do you?


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## Russianwolf

DCBluesman said:


> Well, if I had an agreement that for $30,000 I would get a Mercedes that would reach 150MPH and was delivered a Mercedes that would not reach 150MPH I would feel the supplier shorted me.  He did not deliver what he promised.  Is the Mercedes a better car?  Probably.  Did the salesman do right by me? No. Am I a happy customer? No.



And you wouldn't be any happier with a VW that will do 40mph less than the Benz. 

What I'm getting at is if you are looking at a 150mph Benz, and the 150mph is your requirement, you won't be considering a 80mph VW. They aren't the same quality (noun).

Now if you have a spec of 80mph and you have a VW that does 82 and a Benz that does 80, then yeah, the VW is higher quality (adjective). It's superior in the spec.

I don't know anything about quality testing, but this is the real world.


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## Smitty37

*They're not...*



Russianwolf said:


> What if both are $30k?
> 
> Here's the definition that I use. 9.    ( modifier ) having or showing excellence or superiority: a quality product


 
They're not...but that doesn't really enter into it...one is meeting its requirements the other is not...the price of each is not part of the equation.  If one was a Yugo...it still wouldn't matter.

If you buy a pair of shoes that say they're your size and you get them home and they're about two sizes too small, you won't be calling them a quality product whether you spent $10.00 or $1000 on them will you.  The wrong size can still show "excellence or superiority" but it still does not meet the specifications....


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## Russianwolf

Smitty37 said:


> They're not...but that doesn't really enter into it...one is meeting its requirements the other is not...the price of each is not part of the equation.  If one was a Yugo...it still wouldn't matter.
> 
> If you buy a pair of shoes that say they're your size and you get them home and they're about two sizes too small, you won't be calling them a quality product whether you spent $10.00 or $1000 on them will you.  The wrong size can still show "excellence or superiority" but it still does not meet the specifications....



Smitty, it depends on what you are comparing. 

You compare to spec set by the manufacturer, I compare to a standard spec.

Mine allows me to compare products to a spec that I find acceptable to determine their quality compared to one another.

Yours only allows you to determine the quality as compared to the manufacturers spec. (That whole, set a low expectation and it will be high quality thing).

edit: and I didn't bring price into this thing. Lou did. I was removing it by saying what if the cars are the same price.


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## IPD_Mrs

How does a car reaching the speeds of 150mph equate to quality or luxury?

Here would be my thoughts of quality vs luxury using a car as an example. 

Quality:
Better than average lifespan of comparable products.  Fewer repairs and maintenance issues.  Higher resale value.

Luxury:
All the above plus heated and cooled seat.

Quality is just a well made product or service, where the luxury is all the unnecessary bells and whistle while maintaining the quality.  Luxury should be quality but quality should not equate to luxury.  The exception to the latter would be if someone had to consistently settle for low quality, then a high quality product might equate to a luxury for that person.


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## Smitty37

*real world*



Russianwolf said:


> And you wouldn't be any happier with a VW that will do 40mph less than the Benz.
> 
> What I'm getting at is if you are looking at a 150mph Benz, and the 150mph is your requirement, you won't be considering a 80mph VW. They aren't the same quality (noun).
> 
> Now if you have a spec of 80mph and you have a VW that does 82 and a Benz that does 80, then yeah, the VW is higher quality (adjective). It's superior in the spec.
> 
> I don't know anything about quality testing, but this is the real world.


 
Real world or otherwise...quality is not comparing a Volkswagen and a Mercedes....certainly if you shop for a Mercedes you are probably not going to be shopping for a VW...that is luxury.  But whichever you buy it must meet its specification to be a quality product.  If it does not meet its specification it is not a high quality product, price not withstanding.


.


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## Russianwolf

Smitty37 said:


> Real world or otherwise...quality is not comparing a Volkswagen and a Mercedes....certainly if you shop for a Mercedes you are probably not going to be shopping for a VW...that is luxury.  But whichever you buy it must meet its specification to be a quality product.  If it does not meet its specification it is not a high quality product, price not withstanding.
> 
> 
> .


IT's Spec?

How about MY Spec. I'm the person deciding which is higher quality. MY spec is all that matters. What the manufacture intended the spec to be doesn't matter, only what I want it to be.

As a quality tester, you are used to a very strict definition of the word quality. I'm telling you, that there is more than one definition of the word and your definition isn't always the right one.

And a VW CC is actually comparable to some of the Benz. :tongue:


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## Smitty37

*Quality*



Russianwolf said:


> But in the original post, the claim was that the VW was HIGHER quality than the Benz. The problem is that while true to their individual specs, the specs aren't comparable. So, saying that statement is deceptive.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is the reason that magazines throw specs out the window and compare vehicles based on performance in tests. They can then compare the results of the performance and determine the quality compared to one another.


 
They set their own performance standards that they measure against; are usually quick to point out exactly what they are. They also point out that some (now and then all) of their standards are a bit dicey as to whether or not they are meaningful.


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## Russianwolf

I'll give one more example in term we can all understand.


I send you 5 pen kits with their manufactures specs and ask for the highest quality in terms of the thickness of the plating.

1) Spec. .015 actual .015
2) Spec. .015 actual .016
3) Spec. .020 actual .0195
4) Spec. .018 actual .019
5) Spec. .018 actual .016

Which is the higher quality plating? 

Edit: I should actually ask that you rate them in quality, 1-5 with 1 being highest quality


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## Russianwolf

{crickets chirping}


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## Smitty37

*quality*



Russianwolf said:


> IT's Spec?
> 
> How about MY Spec. I'm the person deciding which is higher quality. MY spec is all that matters. What the manufacture intended the spec to be doesn't matter, only what I want it to be.
> 
> As a quality tester, you are used to a very strict definition of the word quality. I'm telling you, that there is more than one definition of the word and your definition isn't always the right one.
> 
> And a VW CC is actually comparable to some of the Benz. :tongue:


 
You are taking a position that what you think is quality....is quality. In short, you are saying that whatever car is, in your opinion, the better car according to your criteria, you will buy provided it is in your price rang....of course you will --- so will I,  but that has nothing to do with the quality of the car we decide to buy. You might want a car with a $5000 super duper stereo....and think that is what "makes" the car, my wife would get one without a radio if they sold them that way. That is opinion...and it has nothing to do with quality, quality is whether that super duper stereo does what it is supposed to do in the manner it is supposed to do it. Whether it is there or not is luxury.


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## tdjumr

*My Viewpoint*

*Quality*
Quality is whatever *you* want it to be.  If you say a component can within ±1 mm, and you are supplied with a part that is within the ±1 mm.  You have a quality part.  It meets the specifications *you* set forth. 

"Penmaker A" and "Penmaker B" both make "Style A" pen.  "Penmaker A" set his specifications on what he accepts in parts to have a tolerance of ±1 mm.  "Penmaker B" set his specifications at ±0.5mm.  "Source X" sells "Style A" pen with a tolerance of ±1 mm for $2. "Source Y" sells their "Style A" pen with a tolerance of ±0.5 mm for $5.

For "Penmaker A" both are a quality product.  They both meet his specifications.  "Source X" is a better value for him since it is lower cost.

For "Penmaker B", "Source X" is not a quality product.  It doesn't meet his specifications.  For him, "Source Y" provides a quality product.  He pays a premium over "Source X" for a quality product, based on his specifications.  

Quality is based on what expectations *you* have.  Quality will vary for everyone.  What's quality for one person, may not be a quality product for another.  

What drill has better quality: A DeWalt or a Black & Decker?   They both can drill a hole or put a screw in.  Functionally they do the same thing.  Why did you pick that brand? 

*Luxury*
Luxury is anything above the basic function of an item.  A bic pen meets the function of writing.  A handcrafted pen is a luxury, it goes above the basic function of writing.  

The heated seat in your car is a luxury.  It is not needed for the basic function of a car.


*Summary*
Luxury's connection with quality is primarily perceived.  If someone is buying a luxury item, they need to feel that the increased cost of the item is worth it to them.  That worth may be in looks, functionality, quality...

People tend to associate luxury with higher quality.  That may not always be the case.  If it does not meet their specifications, it is not a quality product in their mind.  It may have meet the manufacturers specifications, therefore meeting their quality standards.  But if it doesn't meet the customers standards then it isn't a quality product.  People pay more for luxury items, therefore feeling that the quality should be better then the standard product.

If our specifications on tolerances exceed that of our customer, then the customer feels that we provide a quality product.  If the customers specifications on tolerances exceed that of ours then our product, in the customer's eyes, is not of high quality.


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## Russianwolf

Thanks Trevor. That's what I was inadequately trying to say.


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## ed4copies

Hey Mike, who found this engineer who can WRITE????

Nice job, Trevor!!!


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## Russianwolf

Don't know who found him, but can we keep him?!?!?!?!?


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## Rick_G

tdjumr said:


> *Quality*
> What drill has better quality: A DeWalt or a Black & Decker?   They both can drill a hole or put a screw in.  Functionally they do the same thing.  Why did you pick that brand?



I picked my second Black & Decker because my first one lasted 42 years and is still going.  I picked DeWalt because my 2nd Black & Decker didn't last a year. :biggrin:


----------



## David M

why do i feel like your talking about mt 38 year old vw , daily driver 
David


----------



## Displaced Canadian

First of all I don't have a Mercedes or a VW, I drive a GMC. :biggrin:
 If I was asked to describe a quality pen I would talk about the kit in terms of longevity of plating and how smooth it operated. Does the trans. feel solid, do the threads feel tight when you cap it. The wood or whatever materiel you use would be how does it look. Then comes fit and finish. If you have high marks on all 3 you have a quality pen. It is true an expensive kit and blank do not by themselves make an expensive pen. To me it is more a question of durability and a good value for me and the customer.


----------



## renowb

My 2 cents. I buy from Smitty and have not had any problems. And no, he did not pay me to say that!


----------



## ed4copies

Russianwolf said:


> Don't know who found him, but can we keep him?!?!?!?!?



Well, he's an engineer.  Think a lot, don't eat much---SURE!!!!
Why not???


----------



## ed4copies

Dear Renowb:

Viet Nam, Desert Storm vet----

THANK-YOU!!!!!

(YOU helped us all KEEP the RIGHT to buy where we choose!!!)​


----------



## Smitty37

*quality*



Russianwolf said:


> Smitty, it depends on what you are comparing.
> 
> You compare to spec set by the manufacturer, I compare to a standard spec.
> 
> Mine allows me to compare products to a spec that I find acceptable to determine their quality compared to one another.
> 
> Yours only allows you to determine the quality as compared to the manufacturers spec. (That whole, set a low expectation and it will be high quality thing).
> 
> edit: and I didn't bring price into this thing. Lou did. I was removing it by saying what if the cars are the same price.


 
You are saying that your opinion defines quality...and in a limited way it does ... you define your standard that you are going to measure all cars against do decide which car is best for you....that is fine, we all do that.  But, that does not mean that you can then say that the car you chose is the best quality car...only that it is the best choice for you. That has nothing at all to do with the quality of the vehicle that you chose. The quality of that vehicle is determined by its conformance to its specification. Is it what it says it is -- represents quality...not is it what you'd like it to be.


----------



## Russianwolf

Russianwolf said:


> I'll give one more example in term we can all understand.
> 
> 
> I send you 5 pen kits with their manufactures specs and ask for the highest quality in terms of the thickness of the plating.
> 
> 1) Spec. .015 actual .015
> 2) Spec. .015 actual .016
> 3) Spec. .020 actual .0195
> 4) Spec. .018 actual .019
> 5) Spec. .018 actual .016
> 
> Which is the higher quality plating?
> 
> Edit: I should actually ask that you rate them in quality, 1-5 with 1 being highest quality



So to answer my own question since no one else seems willing.

Kit number      -----    My assumed Smitty's answer-----       My answer
1)                  -----                3 (100%)   -----                   5
2)                   -----               1 (106%)                    -----  3
3)                          -----              4 (97.5%)             -----        1
4)                                 -----       2 (105%)               -----       2
5)                                        -----5 (89%)                  -----      3

Smitty can tell us if I got his answers right.


----------



## Smitty37

*VW*



Mudpuppie said:


> why do i feel like your talking about mt 38 year old vw , daily driver
> David


 Be happy it isn't my wife's three year old new Beetle, which I do not consider to be a high quality car....for many reasons....


----------



## terryf

I think we're confusing the issue here.

A quality manager measures according to a _standard_ to which his/her company conforms.

A consumer expects, as Mike/Linda mentioned, better than average lifespan, less issues etc.


----------



## Russianwolf

Smitty37 said:


> You are saying that your opinion defines quality...and in a limited way it does ... you define your standard that you are going to measure all cars against do decide which car is best for you....that is fine, we all do that.  But, that does not mean that you can then say that the car you chose is the best quality car...only that it is the best choice for you. That has nothing at all to do with the quality of the vehicle that you chose. The quality of that vehicle is determined by its conformance to its specification. Is it what it says it is -- represents quality...not is it what you'd like it to be.



I'm dropping the car analogies as they are just too complicated. Radios????????

Look at post 34 I think it is, with the pen plating question.


----------



## Russianwolf

I'll add one more car related comment.


JD Power and Associates Quality ratings are NOT based on manufactures specs, are they?


----------



## ed4copies

While I don't understand your answers, I would say
3,4,2,5,1

Actual plating:.0195, .019, .016, .016, .015

2 at .016 beats 5 at .016, because it was "advertised" as .015, so it exceeds their spec, where the other was advertised as .018 so it is below the spec.

But specs be damned, I want the one with the greatest plating thickness for MY customer.  This is the least likely to revisit me in the hands of that same, now irate, customer.


----------



## Russianwolf

you and I are alike Ed..... no real surprise there..... I let them be tied at 3rd since I don't care what the manufacturer claims, just what is.


----------



## Smitty37

*wrong*



Russianwolf said:


> So to answer my own question since no one else seems willing.
> 
> Kit number ----- My assumed Smitty's answer----- My answer
> 1) ----- 3 (100%) ----- 5
> 2) ----- 1 (106%) ----- 3
> 3) ----- 4 (97.5%) ----- 1
> 4) ----- 2 (105%) ----- 2
> 5) -----5 (89%) ----- 3
> 
> Smitty can tell us if I got his answers right.


Wrong....
Assuming you spec'd only the minimum thickness of the plating and not both the minimum and maximum as I would expect most manufacturers to do since plating can be too thick as well as too thin. I would see three that met or exceeded the specification and two that would be rejected. I would not say that any of the three was of higher quality than any other and that all three were higher quality than the rejects. 

(plating is not analogous to maximum speed of a car...the minimum speed of a car is 0 so it is understood without being stated.  Also, the VW would have been the same, if it went 85 instead of 82, it would have exceeded it's spec)  If the max had been stated and between 79 and 81...the VW would also have been out of spec.


----------



## Smitty37

*JD*



Russianwolf said:


> I'll add one more car related comment.
> 
> 
> JD Power and Associates Quality ratings are NOT based on manufactures specs, are they?


 No they are a public OPINION polling company and their ratings are based on public opinion.


----------



## Smitty37

Russianwolf said:


> I'll give one more example in term we can all understand.
> 
> 
> I send you 5 pen kits with their manufactures specs and ask for the highest quality in terms of the thickness of the plating.
> 
> 1) Spec. .015 actual .015
> 2) Spec. .015 actual .016
> 3) Spec. .020 actual .0195
> 4) Spec. .018 actual .019
> 5) Spec. .018 actual .016
> 
> Which is the higher quality plating?
> 
> Edit: I should actually ask that you rate them in quality, 1-5 with 1 being highest quality


Well your spec does not make sense....It should be more like .015 plus or minus .0005 but going with what you gave me below is my opinion.  I would not rate them on a good/better/best basis...that is luxury not quality.

1) accepted - meets requirements
2) accepted - exceeds requirements
3) rejected - does not meet requirements
4) accepted - exceeds requirements
5) rejected - does not meet requirements

The fact that two rejected items have higher requirements and are actually thicker than some that do meet spec makes no difference.  If you paid for .020 and got .0195 you didn't get what you paid for.


----------



## Smitty37

*What a fun afternoon*

Hey!!! thanks to all who participated in this thread...it's been a fun time foer me but I think I'm all done on this one.  It does show that what quality control professionals have been saying for at least 50 years is still true.

Most people do not know what quality control is all about.  Or what really constitutes quality.


----------



## ed4copies

Smitty37 said:


> Hey!!! thanks to all who participated in this thread...it's been a fun time foer me but I think I'm all done on this one.  It does show that what quality control professionals have been saying for at least 50 years is still true.
> 
> Most people do not know what quality control is all about.  Or what really constitutes quality.




OR
it could show that quality control people don't have a CLUE about marketing.


----------



## Smitty37

*yup*



ThomJ said:


> I have an aquaintance that has his product made in china, as long as his representative from the US is on the factory floor making spot QC checks things are fine, let him take time away from the factory & the product ends up with flaws. That being said, I have also seen that happen in US factories.


 
Yea I had some equipment be made in Walnut Creek CA about 30 years ago and we had the same issue...had to have our guy watch the vendors workers.


----------



## OKLAHOMAN

:good::good::good:





ed4copies said:


> OR
> it could show that quality control people don't have a CLUE about marketing.


----------



## jttheclockman

Why in the world are we talking about cars on a pen turning forum. Take it to the Casual Conversation thing. We as Americans do not demand quality we demand low prices and that is what we get. 

As far as related to pens I think Mike MLK had the perfect answer.


----------



## Russianwolf

Smitty37 said:


> Most people do not know what quality control is all about.  Or what really constitutes quality.



Actually, I'm well aware of what Quality Control is, but that's not what your original post said. It said it was about determining quality.

Quality control is checking to make sure that a measure is within tolerences and passing only those that meet those tolerences.

determining quality is a whole other matter. 

I can read a dictionary just fine. And if you can find a non-QC dictionary that agrees with your definition 100% maybe I'll reconsider, But insulting me even in a mild form won't do it. :wink:

Now, here's the catcher..... in my example with the platings, if I then come back and say I have a requirement of a minimum .017 thickness, then you'll see that some meet my required quality and some don't. Some that don't even pass the their own manufacturers test pass mine, and some that do pass their test don't meet my requirements. 

So quality is subjective to who's spec you are testing against.


----------



## capcrnch

Russianwolf said:


> And you wouldn't be any happier with a VW that will do 40mph less than the Benz.
> 
> What I'm getting at is if you are looking at a 150mph Benz, and the 150mph is your requirement, you won't be considering a 80mph VW. They aren't the same quality (noun).
> 
> Now if you have a spec of 80mph and you have a VW that does 82 and a Benz that does 80, then yeah, the VW is higher quality (adjective). It's superior in the spec.
> 
> I don't know anything about quality testing, but this is the real world.



Disagree.

Well, disagree/agree.

VW's are plagued by electrical problems right now. Have been since around 1999ish. Why? Because they cut corners, reduced quality, reduced quality control and were more focused on "push em out" than they were with "give quality". VW has been like that for years. (Coil packs anyone? Heater channels on your bug gone? Battery tray drop out of your bus? Door handles break on your mk2?)

On the other hand.. I know what i'll get by buying a VW. I would be much happier in a VW than a Mercedes. Personal choice from a guy who has driven VW's for 20 years now. (Driven as a daily driver, an autocross car, show car and a Sunday cruiser)...

Turning this back to pen kit quality (no pun intended), I know if I buy a kit from smitty, im buying something that came from China/Japan/Taiwan/etc.. I've bought kits on eBay that I knew originated from the same area. 
I would continue to buy from Smitty because A)I know his product is majority very good.. B)I know his customer service is very good.. C)Supporting someone who has been good to me in the past/supports IAP.

FWIW...


----------



## capcrnch

Smitty37 said:


> Be happy it isn't my wife's three year old new Beetle, which I do not consider to be a high quality car....for many reasons....



Headlight blown or leaking water? Wiper transmission stripped? Hatch not opening? Need to pull the front tire to change a blinker? Door panels/grab handle peeling? Climate control unit has a snapped cable at the heat adjustment? Random clicking sound from the relays?
My wife is on her 3rd New Beetle. Every time she has a problem, I think i've seen it all, then 2 months later, something new and "fun" comes up.


----------



## Smitty37

*luxury*



MLKWoodWorking said:


> How does a car reaching the speeds of 150mph equate to quality or luxury?
> 
> Here would be my thoughts of quality vs luxury using a car as an example.
> 
> Quality:
> Better than average lifespan of comparable products. Fewer repairs and maintenance issues. Higher resale value.
> 
> Luxury:
> All the above plus heated and cooled seat.
> 
> Quality is just a well made product or service, where the luxury is all the unnecessary bells and whistle while maintaining the quality. Luxury should be quality but quality should not equate to luxury. The exception to the latter would be if someone had to consistently settle for low quality, then a high quality product might equate to a luxury for that person.


 
Resale value is determined by the market...not the quality ... quality issues are items that you as a manufacturer can control.  Quality does not include things that you cannot control.

What is "well made"?  Your definition and mine might differ..conformance to specification can be seen, felt, smelled, touched, heard or measured....hence "well made" is opinion and has nothing to do with quality, conformance to spec is quality.  Hence. a very high quality and luxury pen blank can be turned (no pun intended) into a very low quality pen...the blank meets all of its specifications but the pen does not...


----------



## kirkfranks

This has been an interesting discussion, but one point is missing.
To the best of my knowledge the fact is that none of the pen kit manufacturers will show us what their actual specs are.

If company A said their tubes are to be size X +/-.001 and the shiny bits are size Y +/- .001 and company B said their tubes are X +/- .005 and shiny bits are X +/- .005 then we would have something to use when we compare that all important price (or is it all important.)

As I see it we only have our perceived spec to judge the suppliers against and since we all have different opinions on that perceived spec should be we will never be able to make an informed decision.  I believe that the suppliers would rather keep things this way.  I welcome them to post their specs (with tolerances) to prove me wrong


----------



## Smitty37

*quality*



tdjumr said:


> *Quality*
> Quality is whatever *you* want it to be. If you say a component can within ±1 mm, and you are supplied with a part that is within the ±1 mm. You have a quality part. It meets the specifications *you* set forth.
> 
> "Penmaker A" and "Penmaker B" both make "Style A" pen. "Penmaker A" set his specifications on what he accepts in parts to have a tolerance of ±1 mm. "Penmaker B" set his specifications at ±0.5mm. "Source X" sells "Style A" pen with a tolerance of ±1 mm for $2. "Source Y" sells their "Style A" pen with a tolerance of ±0.5 mm for $5.
> 
> For "Penmaker A" both are a quality product. They both meet his specifications. "Source X" is a better value for him since it is lower cost.
> 
> For "Penmaker B", "Source X" is not a quality product. It doesn't meet his specifications. For him, "Source Y" provides a quality product. He pays a premium over "Source X" for a quality product, based on his specifications.
> 
> Quality is based on what expectations *you* have. Quality will vary for everyone. What's quality for one person, may not be a quality product for another.
> 
> What drill has better quality: A DeWalt or a Black & Decker? They both can drill a hole or put a screw in. Functionally they do the same thing. Why did you pick that brand?
> 
> *Luxury*
> Luxury is anything above the basic function of an item. A bic pen meets the function of writing. A handcrafted pen is a luxury, it goes above the basic function of writing.
> 
> The heated seat in your car is a luxury. It is not needed for the basic function of a car.
> 
> 
> *Summary*
> Luxury's connection with quality is primarily perceived. If someone is buying a luxury item, they need to feel that the increased cost of the item is worth it to them. That worth may be in looks, functionality, quality...
> 
> People tend to associate luxury with higher quality. That may not always be the case. If it does not meet their specifications, it is not a quality product in their mind. It may have meet the manufacturers specifications, therefore meeting their quality standards. But if it doesn't meet the customers standards then it isn't a quality product. People pay more for luxury items, therefore feeling that the quality should be better then the standard product.
> 
> If our specifications on tolerances exceed that of our customer, then the customer feels that we provide a quality product. If the customers specifications on tolerances exceed that of ours then our product, in the customer's eyes, is not of high quality.


 
You are dancing around the correct answer...pen maker A and pen maker B both set a spec. and then go looking for what's out there...conformance to their spec is what will meet their requirements.  That is not quality, that is simply saying this is what I want, can you provide it.  Quality comes after someone says "Yes I can".   Pen maker B will not even consider the item from the manufacturer that does not meet his specification.  Pen maker A will consider both because both meet his specification.  

I


----------



## Smitty37

*Maybe*



ed4copies said:


> While I don't understand your answers, I would say
> 3,4,2,5,1
> 
> Actual plating:.0195, .019, .016, .016, .015
> 
> 2 at .016 beats 5 at .016, because it was "advertised" as .015, so it exceeds their spec, where the other was advertised as .018 so it is below the spec.
> 
> But specs be damned, I want the one with the greatest plating thickness for MY customer.  This is the least likely to revisit me in the hands of that same, now irate, customer.


 
Maybe you do and maybe you don't....the actual plating being too thin might very well give you some grief by not fitting correctly...


----------



## Smitty37

*Wrong again*



ed4copies said:


> OR
> it could show that quality control people don't have a CLUE about marketing.


 
Actually confusion of quality and luxury is exactly what marketing folks want....thats why you can spend from $8000 or so to about as much as you want to to buy a new vehicle to get you from point A to point B over land.  They want you to think that buying their bells and whistles will make your car a "better quality" machine....Most of us have owned enough cars to know that it just ain't so.  The best car I have ever owned was not the most expensive, even in what one would call "current year dollars"...wasn't a car either...it was a pickup truck.


----------



## MesquiteMan

Smitty37 said:


> The issue isn't about Chinese Quality....it is about what quality is.
> 
> If you live in a house less than 10 years old, don't check your electrical system, because (all or nearly all) of it including circuit breakers, outlets, switches, junction boxes, outlet boxes and all the other things that you trust your life to every day will have been made in China.
> 
> And so far, after 5 years of living in such a house I have had zero failures except for light bulbs.



As you may or may not know...I build custom homes.  Just for grins, I  took a look at a brand new Square D panel that I have sitting  in my warehouse.  Made in USA.  I then took a look at a brand new Square  D breaker...you guessed it, Made in USA.  Cooper wall switch...made in  USA.  Lutron dimmer...Made in Mexico.

Certainly not made in China but then again, these are known to be some of the best quality electrical components made.


----------



## sefali

I think some are worrying too much about technical definition, and not enough about reality. This discussion is really about pen components, right? So lets talk about pens. The reality for most of us is that quality is what our customers perceive it to be. That means smooth working transmissions and threads, durable, defect-free platings, smooth writing refills, and other factors that have more to do with our own craftsmanship than the components.

  A factory can easily turn out "quality" components that meet some very low standards. The reality is that a potential customer is not likely to feel he's holding a quality pen when the trans doesn't want to work quite right, or the cap is rough threading. A customer is even less likely to feel he's holding a quality piece when his favorite pen's plating looks like crap, or just plain disappears, in short order.


----------



## ed4copies

It did occur to me that a car has thousands of moving parts--the pen components on a slimline have ONE moving part.

Why not consider just the "pen-relevant" issues:
Simple twist transmission
Plating durability
Components fitting into the brass tubes and remaining "whole"

I used Chinese kits all of one Christmas season, because I WANT a competitor for Dayacom.  I never understood paying $8 for 4 parts and two tubes.  NOW, those prices are down considerably.  But, when I used the kits that season, I scrunched several transmissions (I had never done that with Taiwan kits).  A few clips broke off--again, never had that happen with Taiwan.  

So, now, I look for components that FIT.  Where they are made, does make a difference---to ME.  Plating does make a difference---to ME.

But the pens I sell are, once again VERY LIKELY to bring my customers back to ME, with a SMILE on their faces!!

The demand brought on by the "Price-only" customer should reflect how many NEW turners are starting this hobby.  IF you are learning HOW to make the pen, it's longevity need NOT be a major concern.

I want to make very clear that I am NOT knocking Smitty.  HE has represented these kits honestly.  He stands behind them.  His ethics are, in my opinion, sterling.

My fear is that these kits are sold to the public, the plating will "wear off" and the whole "hand-made pen" industry will share the "stigma" of "crappy product" that we bore years ago when IPG (iridium point-- Germany) got it's "black eye".  We are STILL trying to clear up THAT problem.

So let's make the pen market clearly striated:
Sell these pens as "pretty good, for the money".  NOT the smoothest, NOT the longest lasting, but hey, Mr. Customer, you're supporting my learning curve!!! And they don't cost as much as that guy over there with the Titanium gold and smooth transmission!!!

In a few years, the Chinese will  have this down to a science and their products will perform "just like Taiwan"!!  Just like Japan did.


----------



## MesquiteMan

ed4copies said:


> In a few years, the Chinese will  have this down to a science and their products will perform "just like Taiwan"!!  Just like Japan did.



Not sure about that, Ed.  Taiwan and Japan are not using child labor to my knowledge.


----------



## OKLAHOMAN

:biggrin:I love it when someone else writes my thoughts and saves me all that typing......:biggrin:


ed4copies said:


> It did occur to me that a car has thousands of moving parts--the pen components on a slimline have ONE moving part.
> 
> Why not consider just the "pen-relevant" issues:
> Simple twist transmission
> Plating durability
> Components fitting into the brass tubes and remaining "whole"
> 
> I used Chinese kits all of one Christmas season, because I WANT a competitor for Dayacom. I never understood paying $8 for 4 parts and two tubes. NOW, those prices are down considerably. But, when I used the kits that season, I scrunched several transmissions (I had never done that with Taiwan kits). A few clips broke off--again, never had that happen with Taiwan.
> 
> So, now, I look for components that FIT. Where they are made, does make a difference---to ME. Plating does make a difference---to ME.
> 
> But the pens I sell are, once again VERY LIKELY to bring my customers back to ME, with a SMILE on their faces!!
> 
> The demand brought on by the "Price-only" customer should reflect how many NEW turners are starting this hobby. IF you are learning HOW to make the pen, it's longevity need NOT be a major concern.
> 
> I want to make very clear that I am NOT knocking Smitty. HE has represented these kits honestly. He stands behind them. His ethics are, in my opinion, sterling.
> 
> My fear is that these kits are sold to the public, the plating will "wear off" and the whole "hand-made pen" industry will share the "stigma" of "crappy product" that we bore years ago when IPG (iridium point-- Germany) got it's "black eye". We are STILL trying to clear up THAT problem.
> 
> So let's make the pen market clearly striated:
> Sell these pens as "pretty good, for the money". NOT the smoothest, NOT the longest lasting, but hey, Mr. Customer, you're supporting my learning curve!!! And they don't cost as much as that guy over there with the Titanium gold and smooth transmission!!!
> 
> In a few years, the Chinese will have this down to a science and their products will perform "just like Taiwan"!! Just like Japan did.


----------



## oneula

its "perceived value" because things that are not absolutely neccesary for survival need "perceived value" to become so
quality and luxury really have nothing to do with each other but are often used to help in the definition of something's "perceived" versus real physical value to often increase the monetary compensation of something.
For some folks anything other than an inexpensive or even free work provided ballpoint pen is a waste of their hard earned money, just like some would forego a car or luxurious car in place of saving up to buy a home. 

Like someone already said, its how a user/owner interprets their interaction with an object that helps defines how they see that object and that'll be different by individual, maybe even time of day or frame of mind. 

Quality and Luxury used to be defined by the simple catch phrase "Lifetime Guaranteed Free Replacement No Questions Asked"


----------



## Rick_G

Before I retired I spent close to 15 years repairing and calibrating the electronics that shut a nuclear reactor down if there was a problem.  When I retired they let me choose my replacement.  There were 5 guys that wanted my job.  My interview was simple, here calibrate this ion chamber amplifier.  Having calibrated this equipment for years I knew 1/1000 of a volt was relatively easily obtainable. The tolerance was 5/1000 of a volt.  Only one of the 5 guys spent the time to get the calibration within 1/1000 of a volt, 3 were happy with the outside spec of 5/1000 of a volt the other was in between.  Which one would you want calibrating the equipment for a nuclear power plant 5 miles from your home and family.   Working on this stuff for years I found errors do not cancel each other out they add.  That's where quality stands out.


----------



## jttheclockman

8 pages of what???  What is the point???  Please get to the punch line.  We are debating symantics of 2 words. Must be a slow pen turning day:biggrin:


----------



## ed4copies

*Don't like long threads??*



jttheclockman said:


> 8 pages of what???  What is the point???  Please get to the punch line.  We are debating symantics of 2 words. Must be a slow pen turning day:biggrin:



Set your personal preferences to the max per page and this thread has not yet filled TWO pages!!!!  It'll make you feel SOOOOOOOOOooooo much better!!!:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:


----------



## jttheclockman

ed4copies said:


> Set your personal preferences to the max per page and this thread has not yet filled TWO pages!!!! It'll make you feel SOOOOOOOOOooooo much better!!!:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:


 

I feel soooooooooooooooo much better now just knowing that is possible. Thanks for the heads up. That was a Quality answer or was that a LUXURY ???:bulgy-eyes::question::yin-yang::befuddled::befuddled:


----------



## ed4copies

I believe it was a luxury, subject to LUXURY TAX!!!!

PLEASE pay at this window!!!!

Paypal at : GeeThanksEdIDon'tKnowHowToRepayYou.Dollars!!


----------



## jttheclockman

ed4copies said:


> I believe it was a luxury, subject to LUXURY TAX!!!!
> 
> PLEASE pay at this window!!!!
> 
> Paypal at : GeeThanksEdIDon'tKnowHowToRepayYou.Dollars!!


 
Can I pay you in Chinese pen parts???


----------



## Smitty37

*CORRECTED*



MesquiteMan said:


> As you may or may not know...I build custom homes. Just for grins, I took a look at a brand new Square D panel that I have sitting in my warehouse. Made in USA. I then took a look at a brand new Square D breaker...you guessed it, Made in USA. Cooper wall switch...made in USA. Lutron dimmer...Made in Mexico.
> 
> Certainly not made in China but then again, these are known to be some of the best quality electrical components made.


 
If that is so, I stand corrected...the ones in my house are labeled made in China...the ones in my local hardware store say made in china and the last time I checked most of the ones at Lowes said made in china and All of the light fixtures at Lowes say made in china.


----------



## jttheclockman

Smitty37 said:


> If that is so, I stand corrected...the ones in my house are labeled made in China...the ones in my local hardware store say made in china and the last time I checked most of the ones at Lowes said made in china and All of the light fixtures at Lowes say made in china.


 


*[PDF]* 
*Identifying Counterfeit Square D Circuit Breakers 

 

*

File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - Quick View
Actual *Square*. *D circuit breakers* have: (a) the amp rating written on the handle in white paint on the front of the breaker;. [Note: Prior to 1999 the amp *...*
www.lanl.gov/safety/.../counterfeit_*squared*_*circuit*_*breakers*.pdf - Similar


----------



## Hucifer

Rick_G said:


> I picked my second Black & Decker because my first one lasted 42 years and is still going.  I picked DeWalt because my 2nd Black & Decker didn't last a year. :biggrin:



Dewalt bought B&D so they could have a lower quality product at a lower price point to satisfy that part of the market... It doesn't mean that Dewalt is luxurious...


----------



## Smitty37

*experience*



ed4copies said:


> It did occur to me that a car has thousands of moving parts--the pen components on a slimline have ONE moving part.
> 
> Why not consider just the "pen-relevant" issues:
> Simple twist transmission
> Plating durability
> Components fitting into the brass tubes and remaining "whole"
> 
> I used Chinese kits all of one Christmas season, because I WANT a competitor for Dayacom. I never understood paying $8 for 4 parts and two tubes. NOW, those prices are down considerably. But, when I used the kits that season, I scrunched several transmissions (I had never done that with Taiwan kits). A few clips broke off--again, never had that happen with Taiwan.
> 
> So, now, I look for components that FIT. Where they are made, does make a difference---to ME. Plating does make a difference---to ME.
> 
> But the pens I sell are, once again VERY LIKELY to bring my customers back to ME, with a SMILE on their faces!!
> 
> The demand brought on by the "Price-only" customer should reflect how many NEW turners are starting this hobby. IF you are learning HOW to make the pen, it's longevity need NOT be a major concern.
> 
> I want to make very clear that I am NOT knocking Smitty. HE has represented these kits honestly. He stands behind them. His ethics are, in my opinion, sterling.
> 
> My fear is that these kits are sold to the public, the plating will "wear off" and the whole "hand-made pen" industry will share the "stigma" of "crappy product" that we bore years ago when IPG (iridium point-- Germany) got it's "black eye". We are STILL trying to clear up THAT problem.
> 
> So let's make the pen market clearly striated:
> Sell these pens as "pretty good, for the money". NOT the smoothest, NOT the longest lasting, but hey, Mr. Customer, you're supporting my learning curve!!! And they don't cost as much as that guy over there with the Titanium gold and smooth transmission!!!
> 
> In a few years, the Chinese will have this down to a science and their products will perform "just like Taiwan"!! Just like Japan did.


 
Is there some good reason that people on this forum can't discuss quality without getting into China vs Taiwan?   

What is quality is the issue...not who produces the best quality.  I don't think I have ventured an opinion of who makes the best quality.  Nor have I knocked the quality of kits produced by any manufacturer.

For $8 dollars you should get a "better" item than you get for $2, perhaps made from more durable raw materials but that is by definition luxury.  For $20.00 you should get a "better" item than you do for $8. But, if all of the items meet their specifications then all are quality items.  Whether or not they happen to be related to the hand turned pen making industry. 

Hand made pens come in all sizes, shapes, colors and prices they are produced by expert wood turners, expert pen turners, people who are decent turners and folks who are novices.  The whole industry does not get a black eye from a few bad pens any more than papermate gets a black eye when a pen or so doesn't work out of the box...and I've had that happen...I moaned and groaned a little and went and bought an new refill.

People who buy cheap kits, will stop buying them if they don't perform...unless you believe they are adicted to sending good money after bad or something.  On measure of "quality" is customer satisfaction and customer satisfaction is based on many things including "value for dollar" and value for dollar means different things to different people.  People, everyday, including you Ed, make decisions on what to buy and price does make a difference...how often in your life have you said ... well maybe I can get a little better '????" but this is what I can afford and it's the best I can get for that price....

To Bill Gates $250 for a pen is not even pocket change...to me that is totally nuts and no one of sound mind would pay it...but Mont Blanc and others are still considered the standard of luxury and quality.


----------



## PR_Princess

jttheclockman said:


> Can I pay you in Chinese pen parts???


Will that be floating in on a Chinese junk?


----------



## jttheclockman

PR_Princess said:


> Will that be floating in on a Chinese junk?


 

Good one!!! I got nothing


Wait  I got it. 

No, I got nothing.


----------



## Smitty37

Rick_G said:


> Before I retired I spent close to 15 years repairing and calibrating the electronics that shut a nuclear reactor down if there was a problem. When I retired they let me choose my replacement. There were 5 guys that wanted my job. My interview was simple, here calibrate this ion chamber amplifier. Having calibrated this equipment for years I knew 1/1000 of a volt was relatively easily obtainable. The tolerance was 5/1000 of a volt. Only one of the 5 guys spent the time to get the calibration within 1/1000 of a volt, 3 were happy with the outside spec of 5/1000 of a volt the other was in between. Which one would you want calibrating the equipment for a nuclear power plant 5 miles from your home and family. Working on this stuff for years I found errors do not cancel each other out they add. That's where quality stands out.


 
So you are agreeing with me that exceeding requirements is better quality regardless of what the requirements are?  

But the question is would you accept the ion amp if it could not be calibrated to better than spec??  You rightly took the position that the unit should be calibrated to the tightest tolerance it could meet which happened to be better than required.  But what did you do when one would meet the spec but not exceed it?

I waged a lot of battles over issues like that in my 32 years in Test Engineering (we also calibrated a lot of stuff including the insturments used to calibrate the prime equipment).  But when the issue is resolved it is usually if it meets spec it is by definition good.  If it is not - change the spec.


----------



## tim self

jttheclockman said:


> I feel soooooooooooooooo much better now just knowing that is possible. Thanks for the heads up. That was a Quality answer or was that a LUXURY ???:bulgy-eyes::question::yin-yang::befuddled::befuddled:



The answer was quality, the action is luxury and this thread does not meet nor exceed my expectations of either.


----------



## RAdams

tim self said:


> The answer was quality, the action is luxury and this thread does not meet nor exceed my expectations of either.


 



BEST POST OF THE ENTIRE THREAD!


----------



## phillywood

Have one qsn. how did the car discussion get into the pen kit?
then again, I have another Qsn. if you paid me $15 for a pen and it's plating wears off in 4 month. ( you make $29/HR) Vs. If you paid me $100 and you still make same ($29/hr) and plating wears oof after 2 years for instance. Do you think you will pick up the phone and call me to chew me out over the $15 pen when you would loose $14/hr to argue wih me Vs. when you call me over $100 pen and for the same amount of time we discuss the problem and you loose $71/hr? I think you'd go with the second answer and call me becuse you got more to loose and also you spent more. And for the first $15 pen, you'd probably throw it away and won't even bother me with it, but I will never see you again for repeat bus. But if i provided you wtih a good customer sevice and treated you right then we may sitill do bus. again.
Now who wants to go make soem pens to sell for $15?


----------



## jttheclockman

tim self said:


> The answer was quality, the action is luxury and this thread does not meet nor exceed my expectations of either.


 
AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Wildman

Comparing a Mercedes to a Volkswagen is talking apples and oranges, no comparison.  Consumer Reports recommends more Volkswagen than Mercedes. If you are talking performance, why not compare Mercedes to Porsche? Both makes are expensive to buy and own.  

Has already said handcrafted pens are a luxury item for pen buyers.  We live in a world of $1.99 buys a bag of BIC’s. Whether people buying a $10 Slimline or $1,000 + pen, they want and expect both quality and luxury.  

I cannot make a $2.00 Slimline pen for less than $10.00. My experience with $2.00 or less Slimline kits taught me not worth my time and effort.  Component quality biggest issue and reason for not making cheap Slimline pen kits. I do not make better quality Slimline kits, because of competition from junk kits out there.   I like to making Slimline pens! I see a lot of quality Slimline pens made everyday.


----------



## Smitty37

*Why*



tim self said:


> The answer was quality, the action is luxury and this thread does not meet nor exceed my expectations of either.


 
Usually when threads don't meet my expectations I don't read them....of course maybe you'd just rather complain:biggrin:


----------



## Smitty37

*Quality*



Wildman said:


> Comparing a Mercedes to a Volkswagen is talking apples and oranges, no comparison. Consumer Reports recommends more Volkswagen than Mercedes. If you are talking performance, why not compare Mercedes to Porsche? Both makes are expensive to buy and own.
> 
> Has already said handcrafted pens are a luxury item for pen buyers. We live in a world of $1.99 buys a bag of BIC’s. Whether people buying a $10 Slimline or $1,000 + pen, they want and expect both quality and luxury.
> 
> I cannot make a $2.00 Slimline pen for less than $10.00. My experience with $2.00 or less Slimline kits taught me not worth my time and effort. Component quality biggest issue and reason for not making cheap Slimline pen kits. I do not make better quality Slimline kits, because of competition from junk kits out there. I like to making Slimline pens! I see a lot of quality Slimline pens made everyday.


 

Hey,,,get with the program.  I was not comparing a Volkswagen with a Mercedes....you can substitute Yugo and Toyota or Chevy and Ford or Cadillac and Buick.....

Had  crafted pens per se are a luxury item that nobody really needs...that has nothing to do with the quality.  The quality is still conformance to requirements.  And, luxury items do have requirements nobody wants to buy a luxury item that doesn't work.

So you are not competitive in making slimline pens....neither am I if I count anything for my labor...what does that have to do with quality?  That's just not being able to meet the requirements of the market with a product that can be sold at the market price.  Doesn't matter if the pen you make is good, bad or somewhere in between if you have to charge more than the market thinks its worth ya ain't gonna sell many.


----------



## Smitty37

*counterfitting*



jttheclockman said:


> *[PDF]*
> *Identifying Counterfeit Square D Circuit Breakers
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - Quick View
> Actual *Square*. *D circuit breakers* have: (a) the amp rating written on the handle in white paint on the front of the breaker;. [Note: Prior to 1999 the amp *...*
> www.lanl.gov/safety/.../counterfeit_*squared*_*circuit*_*breakers*.pdf - Similar


 
Yep and years ago it was Calvin Kline jeans that were counterfitted...I think mostly in Malaysia and Russia.


----------



## arioux

Paying $4 instead of $2 for a kit and putting a lot more chance of having a satisfied custommer, for me this is not luxury, it's common business sense.  As a matter of fact i pay a little more because i only use TI gold as my finish now. I don't advertise, i don't have a web site, mouth to ear is my best seller and that's where i invest.

And making $10 profit instead of $12.  I can live with that.

Rejecting a company that have 20%+ failure ratio on their tranny, that's MY quality control.


----------



## Smitty37

*corrected 2*



Smitty37 said:


> If that is so, I stand corrected...the ones in my house are labeled made in China...the ones in my local hardware store say made in china and the last time I checked most of the ones at Lowes said made in china and All of the light fixtures at Lowes say made in china.


 
I also should tell you ..... my son-in-law is a full time contractor and I built my own small house in the Poconos on PA including doing all of my own electrical wiring, I also wired my basement to be a workshop in the house I live in now, so I'm not totally unfamiliar with such stuff either.


----------



## arioux

Made in China don't mean "scrap".  Made in China means "beware, might be scrap" because they are in expending mode, with cheap labor and a lack of natural ressources.  And i'm not talking about human right.  Some company based in China have great product and just save on the labor but most of the time they have people on site and supply the base product.  Other save of the labor and the basic product but still have someone on site.  Other just don't care about anything and that unfortunately include most of the local Chinese company.
IBM sold their PC division to Lenovo (a Chines hown company) few years ago.  Their agrement was that the IBM logo would stay on the machine for 5 years.  And IBM engeneers where to suppervide the manufacturing.  After the 5 years, IBM logo goes, engeneers goes.  Result:  The first bacth of Lenovo thinkpad T-61 that we receive was pure crap. On 500 machines, there was 4 different graphic cards, 3 different network controler, over 50 with faulty memories and the cover would not close well on many of the Laptop.  The same thing happened to Toshiba few years ago.  Since then they took back most of their manufacturing to Japan.   Lenovo is reacting and trying to improve but for one, i had to respond to my boss about the product that i bought for the company and deal with dozens of angry users.  Result, Lenovo out, HP in.  I will still check Lenovo computer once in a while but i'm burned.

I just don't want that to happen to the pens i sell.  And until i find a chinese kit that meet my expectation , i'll stick with the one that did not deceived me so far.


----------



## Smitty37

*Understanding*



arioux said:


> Paying $4 instead of $2 for a kit and putting a lot more chance of having a satisfied custommer, for me this is not luxury, it's common business sense. As a matter of fact i pay a little more because i only use TI gold as my finish now. I don't advertise, i don't have a web site, mouth to ear is my best seller and that's where i invest.
> 
> And making $10 profit instead of $12. I can live with that.
> 
> Rejecting a company that have 20%+ failure ratio on their tranny, that's MY quality control.


 
You consider opting for luxury makes good business sense...people often do. That has nothing to do with quality. You think using only Titanium fittings makes your kits more saleable so that's what you do...makes perfect sense. How much more chance you have of having a satisfied customer is a guess...you guess one way others might guess another.  One other thing...I could sell TI gold for $4.00 myself if I could get any from my supplier.


----------



## RAdams

I have looked over this thread a couple of times. It sems to me that no matter what anyone says about quality vs. luxury, Smitty, you will be the first to post and shoot them down. 

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder... Well QUALITY is also in the eye of the beholder. Everyone has a slightly different definition of "Quality". What one person considers good quality, Someone else would consider not so good quality. "Joe" is cool with the less expensive kits that won't quite last as long, but are much less expensive (trying to avoid the word "Cheap"). As has been mentioned over and over, "Joe's" Quality standards have been met with the less expensive kit. On the other hand, My quality standards have not been met with the less expensive kit, so for me, it is a low quality product.

When we are talking about MY MONEY, It is also MY DECISION as to where the line is at to seperate quality from non quality. The entire process has nothing to do with "Luxury". 

A horse will get you across town just like a car will, but i doubt you would call that a quality ride. If you would, then you should put some sunscreen on your REDNECK!

For someone in Canada, Air Conditioning in a vehicle is a luxury. For someone in Florida, A.C. IS A MUST! (no, i can't spell neccessit.... nessicit.....nesicit.... yeah, that word... i cant spell it)

With that in mind, What one person considers a must for pen kit specs, may not be teh same as what someone else expects. If your own expectations have been met, then the product is quality. If they haven't been met, then it is low quality. If you have rediculously high standards, then everything is junk! Or if your standards are super low, then everything is awesome!


----------



## Smitty37

*Thinking*



RAdams said:


> I have looked over this thread a couple of times. It sems to me that no matter what anyone says about quality vs. luxury, Smitty, you will be the first to post and shoot them down.
> 
> Beauty is in the eye of the beholder... Well QUALITY is also in the eye of the beholder. Everyone has a slightly different definition of "Quality". What one person considers good quality, Someone else would consider not so good quality. "Joe" is cool with the less expensive kits that won't quite last as long, but are much less expensive (trying to avoid the word "Cheap"). As has been mentioned over and over, "Joe's" Quality standards have been met with the less expensive kit. On the other hand, My quality standards have not been met with the less expensive kit, so for me, it is a low quality product.
> 
> When we are talking about MY MONEY, It is also MY DECISION as to where the line is at to seperate quality from non quality. The entire process has nothing to do with "Luxury".
> 
> A horse will get you across town just like a car will, but i doubt you would call that a quality ride. If you would, then you should put some sunscreen on your REDNECK!
> 
> For someone in Canada, Air Conditioning in a vehicle is a luxury. For someone in Florida, A.C. IS A MUST! (no, i can't spell neccessit.... nessicit.....nesicit.... yeah, that word... i cant spell it)
> 
> With that in mind, What one person considers a must for pen kit specs, may not be teh same as what someone else expects. If your own expectations have been met, then the product is quality. If they haven't been met, then it is low quality. If you have rediculously high standards, then everything is junk! Or if your standards are super low, then everything is awesome!


 
You are showing a perfect lack of understanding of anything I said.  Quality is not in the eye of the beholder, luxury is. Beauty is.  

Quality is conformance to requirements i.e....specifications.  

AC or not AC isn't a quality issue...having an AC ... the AC must work...that is the quality issue.  I was stationed in FL in the 1950's and I assure you that AC in a car is not an absolute requirement, it is nice but people drove all over the state without it in the 50's.  It is luxury a luxury that Canadians don't need..

Your last paragraph is a perfect confusion of luxury  rather than quality and by the way, money has nothing to do with quality your's or anyone elses.  You certainly have every right to buy only what you want quality or otherwise.But a quality item meets its specification for everyone.  If you don't like its specification that's fine don't buy it but that just means that you don't like it not that it's bad quality.

As to responding to the posts on this thread...It's my thread...I started it because I think this is an issue that people ought to discuss now and then.  Posts like your prove I'm right...

If everybody decides what quality is on their own then none of us will ever know what quality is.  BTW the Japanese went from being one of the worst manufacturing countries (quality wise) to about the best using my definition.  I don't make these things up.


----------



## ed4copies

Smitty37 said:


> Hey!!! thanks to all who participated in this thread...it's been a fun time foer me but *I think I'm all done on this one.*  It does show that what quality control professionals have been saying for at least 50 years is still true.
> 
> Most people do not know what quality control is all about.  Or what really constitutes quality.



Would it be possible for us to make statements like this binding?????

Not to pick on you, Smitty-----MANY members say, "I'm done" or "I quit" or words to that effect.  Can we sue for breach of contract, when they return???


----------



## ThomJ

Bang!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## RAdams

Smitty37 said:


> You are showing a perfect lack of understanding of anything I said. Quality is not in the eye of the beholder, luxury is. Beauty is.
> 
> Quality is conformance to requirements i.e....specifications.
> 
> AC or not AC isn't a quality issue...having an AC ... the AC must work...that is the quality issue. I was stationed in FL in the 1950's and I assure you that AC in a car is not an absolute requirement, it is nice but people drove all over the state without it in the 50's. It is luxury a luxury that Canadians don't need..
> 
> Your last paragraph is a perfect confusion of luxury rather than quality and by the way, money has nothing to do with quality your's or anyone elses. You certainly have every right to buy only what you want quality or otherwise.But a quality item meets its specification for everyone. If you don't like its specification that's fine don't buy it but that just means that you don't like it not that it's bad quality.
> 
> As to responding to the posts on this thread...It's my thread...I started it because I think this is an issue that people ought to discuss now and then. Posts like your prove I'm right...
> 
> If everybody decides what quality is on their own then none of us will ever know what quality is. BTW the Japanese went from being one of the worst manufacturing countries (quality wise) to about the best using my definition. I don't make these things up.


 


I could not disagree more. That sounds like a Dictator type statement. "There can be only one high quality, and I decide what that is". This is AMERICA. Everyone has the right to decide their own definition of quality. If it were music, movies, or Electrical products,,, We would be comparing regular stuff to "Bootleg". I have never heard anyone argue that their Bootleg stuff was high quality. 

It is also an interesting study of Psychology to watch all the threads about quality that seem to be started by people who sell the lower quality stuff.


----------



## Smitty37

*yup*



ed4copies said:


> Would it be possible for us to make statements like this binding?????
> 
> Not to pick on you, Smitty-----MANY members say, "I'm done" or "I quit" or words to that effect. Can we sue for breach of contract, when they return???


 
It was to pick on me Ed----and Yes, this being America (mostly) you can sue anybody for anything at anytime.  We graduate more lawyers than we do engineers....that's probably why so many things are now being made in China.


----------



## ed4copies

Why pick on you?  Cause most of the people who say that, I'm afraid would get pissed off.  I figured you could "take it"---and you lived up to my expectations.

Thanks!!


----------



## Smitty37

*Definition of quality*



RAdams said:


> I could not disagree more. That sounds like a Dictator type statement. "There can be only one high quality, and I decide what that is". This is AMERICA. Everyone has the right to decide their own definition of quality. If it were music, movies, or Electrical products,,, We would be comparing regular stuff to "Bootleg". I have never heard anyone argue that their Bootleg stuff was high quality.
> 
> It is also an interesting study of Psychology to watch all the threads about quality that seem to be started by people who sell the lower quality stuff.


 
That is totally wrong...the definition of quality that I am using is the definition used by Quality Control Professionals all over the world and you are darn lucky that they use it and not your "dictatorial" definition of quality that says "Quality is what I say it is"....one of us did make that statement but it was you, not me.  You certainly have the right to make any buying decision that you want, but you make most of your decisions on taste...not quality.  The fact that you might like Bush's baked beans and I like Campbell's does not mean that Campbell's is higher quality for me and Bush's higher quality for you.  It just means that we have different taste in baked beans, both can be very high or very low or somewhere in between in quality.

Bootleg music plays just fine on a lot of IPODs ....or whatever it is that young folks are playing music on these days....and there's a big market for it.  Speaks more to the dishonesty of people (usually both the buyer and seller) than the quality of the music.

Here is what I have said right along "Quality is conformance to requirements (specifications) --- it means the same thing to everyone.  An item either meets its specification or it does not.

Here is what you are saying "Quality is what I like --- it means nothing to anyone but you, if I am producing a product I can't use your definition to make it better because your definition applies only to you.

Sorry but your definition won'r make anything any better for anyone, including yourself.


----------



## ed4copies

NewLondon88 said:


> 25 years from now China will have called in our debts and taken over the
> US, so it will be mandatory for you to change that opinion. :tongue:




Well, you'll have to get out the shovel and tap it on the lid in Morse Code!!


----------



## Russianwolf

So back to my first comment.



Russianwolf said:


> So in other words, if you set your expectations low and meet them, it's a quality product.



Sorry, I'll continue to disagree. Just because the manufacturer has low expectations/specs doesn't make it a higher quality product. It makes it acceptable to them. That's all. That's QC. 

QC doesn't define quality, it only sets limits to acceptable quality for a very specific product. 


In your original post, you said the VW was "higher quality" because it met it's spec while the Benz didn't meet it's spec. While true in a QC aspect, in terms of the definition I posted which came straight from the dictionary (not me),



> 9.	( modifier ) having or showing excellence or superiority: a quality product



The Benz still showed superior performance in speed and is therefore of higher quality in speed.

As I've said, you are using a very specific, narrow definition of the word and it's not necessarily always the definition. The English language tends to be that way. So, while you are correct in a specifically QC defined way, you are not correct when the other definitions of the word are brought into play.

Edit: and Ed, now I'M done here. I have bog oak and Sandringham timbers to inspect.


----------



## JerrySambrook

Mike,
   Those Sandringham timbers are a high quality turning product


----------



## ed4copies

Yes Mike,

Get them pieces of wood SHIPPED!!!!!

Thanks!!!


----------



## Smitty37

*Partly true*



NewLondon88 said:


> No. Meeting your own specification is not quality, it is quality CONTROL.
> 
> The kind of 'quality' we speak of (when we talk quality components) refers
> to a degree of excellence. The kind of 'quality' you use in your example
> refers to is simply the properties of the product. Same word, alternate
> definition.


 
What you say is partly true...but meeting your own definition is by definition quality...quality control is measuring and assuring that you meet your spec. 

Degree of excellence is subjective opinion and as such is luxury or if you prefer taste. A product with a high degree of excellence that does not meet its own specification would by definition NOT be a quality product. A Rolex watch that doesn't work is not as good for telling time as a timex that does.

Another look at the term...a quality problem can be fixed, if it's out of spec I can fix it and bring it into spec. A degree of excellence problem can not be fixed without changing the specification.

If we are going to reach the point where we are known as manufacturers of quality products....we better know what quality is.


----------



## sefali

Smitty37 said:


> If we are going to reach the point where we are know as manufacturers of quality products....we better know what quality is.



That right there is funny.


----------



## Smitty37

*Not so*



Russianwolf said:


> So back to my first comment.
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, I'll continue to disagree. Just because the manufacturer has low expectations/specs you seem to be saying here that designing a product for a particular (say low priced) market means low expectations...that doesn't make sense to me at all. doesn't make it a higher quality product. It makes it acceptable to them. That's all. That's QC.  Assuring that a product meets it's spec is Quality Control the spec itself defines quality for that product.
> 
> QC doesn't define quality, it only sets limits to acceptable quality for a very specific product. All manufactured products are built to a specification...Quality Control checks, measures and assures conformance to that specification.  Quality is conformance to specification.
> 
> 
> In your original post, you said the VW was "higher quality" because it met it's spec while the Benz didn't meet it's spec. While true in a QC aspect, in terms of the definition I posted which came straight from the dictionary (not me),
> 
> 
> 
> The Benz still showed superior performance in speed and is therefore of higher quality in speed.  Not so quality is not measured against the performance of another item it is conformance to it's own specification which it did not meet.   If the speeds were measured in a Quality Control test the Benz would be tagged "Rejected" and the VW would be tagged "Passed" and if the Benz problem turned out to be not fixable they would either redesign or change the spec...that does not meet anyones definition of "higher quality" now does it.
> 
> As I've said, you are using a very specific, narrow definition of the word and it's not necessarily always the definition. The English language tends to be that way. So, while you are correct in a specifically QC defined way, you are not correct when the other definitions of the word are brought into play.  If one is producing a product you still better understand that to build quality (even in your sense of the word) into the product you'd better understand and use quality in my sense of the word.
> 
> In casual conversation you are right...quality is used in all kinds of ways "Quality Time" is one of my favorites, every young parent talks about how important it is and none of them have any idea what it is.  And yes, the English language tends to obscure the meaning of words...i.e what does "love" mean.  I love my hat, I love my dog, I love my wife, I love ice cream....but some words...quality being one of them we'd better have them mean something.  We suffered a lot of years and a lot of loss of market because too many people working for automobile companies (and others as well) thought about quality in your terms while the Japanese and Koreans thought about quality in mine -- and who was making the better quality cars?  Toyota just passed GM as the largest car seller in the USA.
> 
> Edit: and Ed, now I'M done here. I have bog oak and Sandringham timbers to inspect.


 
A product that does not meet its specifications is NOT a better quality product than one that does. A Rolex watch that does not keep correct time (meet its spec) is not better quality than Timex that does. It is still more luxurious. 

When applying the word to a manufactured product the only sensible definition of Quality is conformance to spec. Quality Control is assuring that the product meets its spec.


----------



## Smitty37

*LOL*



sefali said:


> That right there is funny.


 
Is it now....we lost steel, automobiles, and a lot of other products to overseas producers largely because we didn't know what quality was and our competitors did.  I don't think that's too funny.


----------



## Russianwolf

Smitty37 said:


> A product that does not meet its specifications is NOT a better quality product than one that does. A Rolex watch that does not keep correct time (meet its spec) is not better quality than Timex that does. It is still more luxurious.
> 
> When applying the word to a manufactured product the only sensible definition of Quality is conformance to spec. Quality Control is assuring that the product meets its spec.



uggg....... I said I was done here, now Ed's going to sue me.

In your above example, if both work. And the Rolex has a manufacturers spec of +-.1 seconds per hour in keeping time and the Timex has a manufactures spec of +-.5 seconds per hour in keeping time and you get the following actuals.

Rolex -.2 seconds per hour
Timex -.3 seconds per hour

Which is higher quality?

The Rolex doesn't meet the manufactures spec and the Timex does, but the quality of the Rolex is still better than the Timex. There isn't a way to argue against this FACT. -.2 is closer to 0 than -.3. Period. In the real world (not QC world) people will choose the -.2 over the -.3 with everything else being equal.


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## Kaspar

ed4copies said:


> 25 years ago, we said the same thing about Japan.  How do you feel about them now?



Where ever they stand now, Japan is on the wane.  Their demographics are horrible, Tokyo is sucking the money and the life out of the rural areas and their younger people, who are smart enough to see it and don't want to be taxed at an 80% rate to support to social safety net, will leave as quick as they can.  Brain Drain, I believe it is called.  

China, because of its inhuman one-child-only policy is very likely to flip over into the same kind of demographic disaster, and I suspect they will do so without ever achieving the technological prowess, affluence or influence of Japan.  As it stands now, aside from putting things together for US cheaper than any grown-up nation will, China adds no further value to what it produces.  That's precisely why the jobs go there, and in the event that changes, or there is any kind of disruption, we would simply move on to the next cheap labor source.  

My current (Chinese) metal lathe is accurate enough for me,  and cheap.  Congrats China, you're able to build a fairly accurate  version of something that's been around for quite a while.  I do think that when you need unquestionable quality, you buy American, or European.  I would have a European (esp. Proxxon or Schaublin) or American made metal lathe (numerous), in a Hong Kong minute, if I could afford it.  I may be able to one day.


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## Russianwolf

Toyota just passed GM as the largest car seller in the USA. 

True, and how many recalls have they issued in the last year????? 

Quality??????


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## Kaspar

> True, and how many recalls have they issued in the last year?????



You think that's really about quality problems?  No, it's about The Unicorn Rider and Government Motors (GM) keeping their $70 an hour pay scale for the UAW and taking out Non-Union Toyota, which has  been a Made in The USA product for a while now.


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## Smitty37

*You might be right*



NewLondon88 said:


> Not quite. It is meeting ONE definition of 'quality'.
> 
> 
> 
> I disagree on the product that does not meet it's own standard not
> being a quality product.. Your example of the VW and the Mercedes is
> a good example. The $80,000 Mercedes is still a higher quality vehicle
> than the $30,000 VW, even if it misses it's own spec by 2 mph. (provided
> that there is no other serious problem) Whether you're talking of higher
> quality materials, better safety testing, higher performance engine etc..
> there is a higher degree of excellence in the aggregate. Now, whether
> this higher degree is worth the extra money or even desired is another
> matter, but there is no question that the two vehicles have a different
> level of quality.
> 
> There are too many 'quality' areas under discussion here. A Rolex that
> doesn't work is of poor quality design or poor quality workmanship. If it
> is a poor design, the product should never have been released. If it is
> poor workmanship, there is poor quality control.
> 
> Quality as a degree of excellence is not a luxury, it is an external standard
> applied to the company or product by the consumer.
> The consumer decides what they consider acceptable (and yes, that can be
> a moving target) and the company attempts to fill the need when they
> design, market and manufacture their product. In some cases, the company
> will pre-emptively determine the degree of excellence that will go into
> the product, but this is still based on consumer need/preference.
> 
> 
> 
> A quality control problem can be changed. Poor quality workmanship can
> be changed. Poor quality design can be changed. Better quality control
> cannot fix a poor quality design.
> 
> And defining quality as simply 'meeting spec' will never allow you to
> achieve any higher degree of excellence than what was already built into
> the design to begin with.. because by your definition, you are already
> producing a quality product.
> 
> I refuse to settle for a product whose definition of 'quality' is that it
> meets it's own low standards. It needs to meet MY standards.  It needs to meet your tastes, and every product you buy that is subjected to QC meets only its own specifications.  It might by accident also meet yours, if so you buy it.  It is offered for sale attempting to have set specifications for itself that will be acceptable to enough people to make it profitable.
> 
> 
> 
> The word 'quality' has already been corrupted to the point where it is
> almost meaningless. Perhaps it is time for new terms. On this point we are in agreement completely..we wouldn't be having this debate if that were not so, I happen to believe this has already caused (or at least contributed to) us (the USA) a lot of grief and loss of important industry.(plural)


This time I'm really leaving....but the fact that there are so many different ideas of what quality is tells me the country better start having this debate.  When I was a young man if someone told me something was high quality it meant that it was well made and did what it was supposed to do.  Now people tell me that high quality means it costs a lot and has lots of bells and whistles that I may not need or want....

The original Zippo lighter is my idea of a quality product...hasn't changed in about 70 years, best guarantee in the world...is well made, and works.  Available at many different prices...but they all work and the inside is always the same.


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## ed4copies

Hey Eric!!  Good to see you post!

Japan has a financial problem--has for a decade.  But the durability and general suitability for the purpose (which some of us call quality) has become a standard in many industries.

China CAN produce products that also have those "qualities".  Nearly every copier and computer printer that has come into the USA in the last decade is from China.  Japanese companies---Chinese production.

They all work MUCH better than equipment made twenty years ago in Japan, or equipment made thirty years ago in Miami, Fl (the only US manufacturer I recall).  So, yes the Chinese CAN make "good" stuff.  And, I hope someday soon  they make good pen components.  

I do believe we are slightly off target when we aim at "Made in China" as the villain.  I prefer to consider "Made like crud" as the villain.  

I will not be surprised to see "Made in India, VietNam or Korea" on pen components in the future.  I will try to continue to open those samples with an equally open mind and test them.  IF they "screw together right", they will get my full consideration.  IF not, they are not good enough for MY customer.

I now understand how a "Quality" umbrella can turn inside-out in a 20 mph wind.  The "Quality control" folks thought it only needed to survive a gentle breeze of 5 mph, so it met spec!!  To THEM it was a quality product.
To me, it quickly became useless garbage.


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## ed4copies

NewLondon88 said:


> Ok, I'm done. Where's my animated gif file of the guy beating the horse?



I believe we can now just refer to THT ("Tenderized Horse Threads")----it can be our own, IAP inside joke!!

Congrats to Smitty for STARTING our first THT!!:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:


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## Moosewatcher

Your discussion reminds me of the book "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintainance" by Robert Pirsig.  A teacher of creative and technical writing at a small college, he became engrossed in the question of what defines good writing, and what in general defines good, or "quality". His philosophical investigations eventually drove him insane, and he was subjected to electroshock treatment which permanently changed his personality.  Be carefull!  They don't have lathes in the mental wards.


Ken


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## terryf

Rolex vs Timex ???

Now we're comparing apples to blueberries. Automatic vs Quartz cannot be compared fairly. A Rolex will never keep time even close to a Timex and will never be able to. The standard for Rolex is -4+6 second per day. The standard for Timex is -0+0 seconds per day.

Rolex is not a luxury item. It tells time just the same as any other wrist watch and in fact does a lot less than most Timex watches can do. A Casio Protrek Tripsensor is more luxurious than a Rolex and its probably a better quality product too.


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## JerrySambrook

Smitty37 said:


> Is it now....we lost steel, automobiles, and a lot of other products to overseas producers largely because we didn't know what quality was and our competitors did.  I don't think that's too funny.



We lost most of these things due to one thing only PRICE

You are now hearing from someone who has seen many jobs personally lost because of outsourcing to the cheapest competitor

For almost 30 years, I have been in the aircraft industry all the way from a machine operator, machinist (there is a difference) to an CERTIFIED ASME LEVEL I, II, And III layout inspector with radiographics as well. I worked my way up the ladder and into design work, getting two degrees on the way.
My last job was to create the two systems to allow the F35 aircraft to fly in the vertical mode. and they both do so flawlessly!

Quality is not JUST about meeting specs, but is about exceeding them without undue stress on other factors, such as cost. One and only one portion of quality has to due with MEETING specs. There is also appearance.
From YOUR definition earlier, if it functions, and only functions, then it is quality. This is bunk.

If I were a betting man, Smitty, I would wager you worked in one of three industries, or better yet places.
Ma Bell/ATT,  General Motors or some other american car company, or IBM.
This is the philosophy that these companies tried to keep slaming down our throats, and yet in the end, during the 70's and 8-0's it came back to bite them BIG TIME. They did not want to listen to the consumer, and so it opened up the market for the cheaper, and sometimes less quality items to come into the market.

If you worked for one of the three areas above, then your last statement I quoted is true. If you did not, then the chances you lost to competitors is price.
If you want to further discuss this in a one on one forum, please pm me and I will gladly send you my number, but so far, most of what has been inundated about quality here is really BUMK

Sincerely
Jerry Sambrook


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## JerrySambrook

Smitty, you have been around for a while, so you must remember when the steels that first came over from the east were very inferior. The cars rusted worse than Dodges did, and the amount of time they spent in the shop was greater on a percentage basis.
The Japanese DID learn to make things better, and less expensive at the same time. So during the 80's they did start to outdo the US industries, not just in price, but in a quality product as well.

If I go all the way back to what your original premise is, then I have a few questions to ask,
1) you commented that a transmission just needs to put the cartridge in and out.  Do you really think if it is not smooth, or does not lock out the cartridge that is is a quality product because it performs the simple function? I am very willing to bet that if you put two identical pens out, and one had a smooth transmission, and the other did not, then the smooth transmission would sell.
2) plating was another item brought up.  A plating has more qualities to it than thickness. It also has to have durability, and appearance. Some of this is the type of plating used, how it is applied, and what is underneath this.
There have been quite a few times I have tried a "cheap" kit and found the prep work under ot be very poor, to the point that there were scratches, pinhols and pockmarks. but the plating was sufficient. does this make it a quality product?  I have also been making pens back in the very early 90s, and remeber things like three piece pencil kits, tapered and multi step tubes, etc, and how much we paid then for kits. The platings wore off on these in a month or less, but met the spec of the manufacturer then, Is this a quality product?
3) Do you really think because a VW does 82 instead of 80 that is has more quality than the Mercedes? what about ride, durability, other functions? It is more than ONE item that makes quality, not just one.

And as a quality or test person, I really do hope you can see this

Jerry


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## jttheclockman

JerrySambrook said:


> We lost most of these things due to one thing only PRICE
> 
> You are now hearing from someone who has seen many jobs personally lost because of outsourcing to the cheapest competitor
> 
> For almost 30 years, I have been in the aircraft industry all the way from a machine operator, machinist (there is a difference) to an CERTIFIED ASME LEVEL I, II, And III layout inspector with radiographics as well. I worked my way up the ladder and into design work, getting two degrees on the way.
> My last job was to create the two systems to allow the F35 aircraft to fly in the vertical mode. and they both do so flawlessly!
> 
> Quality is not JUST about meeting specs, but is about exceeding them without undue stress on other factors, such as cost. One and only one portion of quality has to due with MEETING specs. There is also appearance.
> From YOUR definition earlier, if it functions, and only functions, then it is quality. This is bunk.
> 
> If I were a betting man, Smitty, I would wager you worked in one of three industries, or better yet places.
> Ma Bell/ATT, General Motors or some other american car company, or IBM.
> This is the philosophy that these companies tried to keep slaming down our throats, and yet in the end, during the 70's and 8-0's it came back to bite them BIG TIME. They did not want to listen to the consumer, and so it opened up the market for the cheaper, and sometimes less quality items to come into the market.
> 
> If you worked for one of the three areas above, then your last statement I quoted is true. If you did not, then the chances you lost to competitors is price.
> If you want to further discuss this in a one on one forum, please pm me and I will gladly send you my number, but so far, most of what has been inundated about quality here is really BUMK
> 
> Sincerely
> Jerry Sambrook


 


I agree with Jerry and he  just reiterated what I had said back in post #62. Cost is the driving factor in this discussion which I can not believe took up this much bandwidth and for what???  Wow.


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## sefali

JerrySambrook said:


> If I go all the way back to what your original premise is, then I have a few questions to ask,
> 1) you commented that a transmission just needs to put the cartridge in and out.  Do you really think if it is not smooth, or does not lock out the cartridge that is is a quality product because it performs the simple function? If that's all spec calls for, yes. I am very willing to bet that if you put two identical pens out, and one had a smooth transmission, and the other did not, then the smooth transmission would sell. Can be attributed to taste, or preference, or luxury over quality.
> 2) plating was another item brought up.  A plating has more qualities to it than thickness. It also has to have durability, and appearance. Some of this is the type of plating used, how it is applied, and what is underneath this.
> There have been quite a few times I have tried a "cheap" kit and found the prep work under ot be very poor, to the point that there were scratches, pinhols and pockmarks. but the plating was sufficient. does this make it a quality product? If spec only calls for a certain thickness of plating, and it's met, yes. 1 micron of gold over a pock mark, is still 1 micron of gold. I have also been making pens back in the very early 90s, and remeber things like three piece pencil kits, tapered and multi step tubes, etc, and how much we paid then for kits. The platings wore off on these in a month or less, but met the spec of the manufacturer then, Is this a quality product? If manufacturer's specs did not call for longer lasting platings then it's irrelevant.
> 3) Do you really think because a VW does 82 instead of 80 that is has more quality than the Mercedes? what about ride, durability, other functions? It is more than ONE item that makes quality, not just one.
> 
> And as a quality or test person, I really do hope you can see this
> 
> Jerry



I took the liberty to answer some of the questions, since Smitty is no longer participating.  Answers based on all of Smitty's replies so far. I didn't answer the VW/Benz ?, because this discussion has always been about cheap slimlines, so no point.


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## sefali

Smitty37 said:


> Is it now....we lost steel, automobiles, and a lot of other products to overseas producers largely because we didn't know what quality was and our competitors did.  I don't think that's too funny.



As you love to say, Wrong. That had nothing to do with not knowing what quality was, and everything to do with not delivering quality, or not delivering it at a competitive price.


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## mharris

*Kit names??*

This thread is enlightening on quality versus luxury etc. I am just wondering if anyone can provide names of manufacturers or companies that sell solid, functional, not 'cheap' meaning metal that will rub off, items from china or places where products may be known to not be the best quality. I'm just looking to step up from some of the slimline pens that seem to not be top of the line. The wall Street from Woodcraft seems like a nice pen but I'm just looking for names that you guys have actually purchased and customers were satisfied and sold well. 
Thanks! You can then continue your conversation about what quality means


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## jttheclockman

mharris said:


> This thread is enlightening on quality versus luxury etc. I am just wondering if anyone can provide names of manufacturers or companies that sell solid, functional, not 'cheap' meaning metal that will rub off, items from china or places where products may be known to not be the best quality. I'm just looking to step up from some of the slimline pens that seem to not be top of the line. The wall Street from Woodcraft seems like a nice pen but I'm just looking for names that you guys have actually purchased and customers were satisfied and sold well.
> Thanks! You can then continue your conversation about what quality means



You resurrected a 2010 thread. Almost 9 years ago. Do you know how much the industry has changed in that time?? Alot. You are far better off starting your own thread and will get more response. I will add so many vendors today and so many kits to choose from. Platings have come a long way so unless you are going for titanium and stainless then all are about equal. Look at price and it will tell you quality right away. Anywhere from $4 to $100+ kits.

Oh yea welcome to the site. Happy turning.


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