# Pontification: When does something stop being "handmade"?



## GouletPens (Nov 13, 2008)

No doubt we all use power tools and various things to create our art...but one has to wonder when something stops being "handmade". A purist might call using a motor in any fashion not handmade, whereas others may consider doing any one part of the process as handmade. The reason I ask this is because our technologies now allow the hobbyist to purchase CNC machines at a somewhat reasonable price; the individual now has the ability to automate aspects such as routing and turning....so what defines "handmade" to you??


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## marcruby (Nov 13, 2008)

I think the most important part of 'handmade' is that enough of an object's creation allows for individual variation.  For example, if I make five cigar pens in a row they will each be unique, often made to fit different buyer preferences in size and balance.

An automated process might kick out a thousand identical pens in the same amount of time it takes me to make 20, but they all will be the same.  Boring, but cheap.

Marc


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## maxwell_smart007 (Nov 13, 2008)

Handmade involves the individual person making the choices about design, as the process is occuring...

Therefore, having a computer do the fabrication while a person designs on the computer is not hand-made...A person has to directly control the tool, in my mind, to be handmade...without pre-programmed actions on the tool's part...


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## Skye (Nov 13, 2008)

maxwell_smart007 said:


> A person has to directly control the tool, in my mind, to be handmade...without pre-programmed actions on the tool's part...



So a foot powered lathe is more 'hand made' than your electric lathe I'm assuming? Being that the spining of the wood is controlled the motor rather than your foot?


It's been talked about many... many... many times here and it never ends well.

*Bottom line is; Everyone's definition of what is 'handmade' is different. What qualifies it for one, doesn't for the other. Who is right? Nobody, everybody. *

In the end it's an unanswerable question that's not really worth asking. You know what it means to you and at the end of the day, it's the only thing that really matters.


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## Chasper (Nov 13, 2008)

Lets build a hypothetical pen making factory.  We will need some workers:
1.  Merchandiser/planner/buyer(s) to decide how many of what to make, get the parts.
2.  Wood/resin prep person(s) to make castings, glue ups, cut blanks, etc.
3.  Driller/gluer/trimmer(s)
4.  Turner/finisher(s)
5.  Assembly/packer(s)
6.  Order taker(s)
7.  Warehousing and shipping(s)
8.  Marketing/sales
We will put the factory in Ohio.  Is a pen that comes out of this factory hand made?
If we put the factory in China would a pen that comes out be hand made?

If we set this up in Ohio and used gang rip saws, multi-spindel drilling machines, CNC routers, robotic gluing machines, CNC lathes, automated dip lines for finishing, etc.  Would the pens be hand made?  Would they be less handmade that the scenario described above?

If one person did all the work from begining to end, using the 8 processes described in the first scenario it would be hand made, right?  If one person did all the work with the more automated machinery would it be handmade?

I believe that handmade has strong connotations of having been concieved, made and sold by one (or a very limited few) person(s).  The first scenario is not handmade unless all the jobs are filled by the same person.  The more automated process is still handmade if all the jobs are filled by the same person.


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## Russianwolf (Nov 13, 2008)

when your hands and skill stop directing the tool.

I'll go back to a different thread as an example.

Lou asked about Scrimshaw and Laser etching. In my opinion, the laser etching qualifies as scrimshaw as long as the material being carved fits into the scrimshaw definition (bone/ivory but not Alt. Ivory). BUT there is a difference in hand crafted scrimshaw and laser etched scrimshaw. And I think that a person advertising "Hand Scrimshawed Pens" should get a premium over those done by a laser (unless that laser is being used by hand)

Tools don't remove the skill and handwork that is being done. Some may lessen it, but not remove it. Only when a computer comes into play is that skill gone.

Think of a car factory. There are a lot of people working on those vehicles, but are they hand made? I don't think so. Hand assembled, Maybe. 

Back in time, and in a few factories today, there were/are hand made cars. The body panels are formed by skilled hand labor, not stamped out by a machine. The frame is welded by hand, etc. etc. etc.


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## Skye (Nov 13, 2008)

Russianwolf said:


> Tools don't remove the skill and handwork that is being done. Some may lessen it, but not remove it. Only when a computer comes into play is that skill gone.



Completely shortsighted thought there.

I take it you've never watched Bruce Boone envision, calculate, then enter in the hundreds, of computations required to make his flame pen. There's at least as much artwork and skill involved there. If you think the machines do all the work for you, you've been watching too many sci-fi shows.

Besides, I've seen some pens that were done by hand that looked like an one armed monkey banged it out with a wooden stick and a screwdriver. I'd hardly say that using your hands is a prerequisite to something being a "skill".


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## maxwell_smart007 (Nov 13, 2008)

Yep, I agree with Mike...and yes, I would say that there are definitely degrees of skill and talent involved with each progression toward true hand-made...

The pinnacle of a hand-made pen would be something like jade hand-carved by an artisan and the components made in his blacksmith shop...but we all compromise to some extent.  

So once the operator stops directly controlling the tool 'in real time', I think it ceases being hand-made...

And Skye, I see nothign wrong with a philosophical pontification...but then again, I took a degree in philosophy in university back in the day...so I'm predisposed to arguing!  The Hellenes and Romans used to debate unanswerable questions like physics before people like Deomcritus and the like came along with an answer..

Maybe there's a budding Democritus in the crowd...

Andrew


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## Skye (Nov 13, 2008)

maxwell_smart007 said:


> And Skye, I see nothign wrong with a philosophical pontification...



Oh, I like nothing more than to wax philosophy, but the problem is someone's feelings always get hurt and they're never mine. For example, if Bruce Boone came across that comment about computers removing skill from a process, I would expect he'd take that as a personal jab as his rings and his very popular flame pen are 'computer' cut.

Problem is if a computer does the cutting, for some dumbfounding reason, removes all 'skill' or artistry from an item for some people. I can only blame a lack of knowledge of the process.

Heck, if I build a webpage, I'll rightfully say that I built it 'by hand' whereas my hands never touch the screen. I did however move the mouse and pressed every key stroke necessary, ignored templates and planned every table and cell, played with the code, designed the colors, created the graphics and put it together in a good looking finished product. That's just as much an art as anything else.

Last time I checked, _most_ everyone here uses bought blanks and uses kits made by some sweatshop over seas, so how anyone here can rightly judge another's work as being 'handmade' as opposed to their own, is beyond me.


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## heinedan (Nov 13, 2008)

I have seen this smae discussion many times on some of the woodcarving boards. Is it hand carved if you used a rotary tool, or a reciprocating carver? There is no right answer. Yes, the CNC can be used to mass produce carbon copies, but it could also be used to create individual, creative designs. It's not the tool that makes the finished product, it's the person who created it - on a wood lathe or on a CNC. 

The big difference to me is the creator. Is the creator trying to create a large number of identical products for financial gain? If so, then he is not an artist, but a businesman. Does the creator strive to create products that express his own unique ideas and designs, and uses a CNC to make the product he created? This is an artist.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Dan


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## GoodTurns (Nov 13, 2008)

Skye said:


> Oh, I like nothing more than to wax philosophy...



I prefer to lacquer it....


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## Skye (Nov 13, 2008)

Oh I stepped right into that one!


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## maxwell_smart007 (Nov 13, 2008)

I don't think ANYONE would say that a laser-carved kit is easy to make on a computer, or that CNC design is EASY!  I think that it is abundantly clear that they are not easy, and require a lot of skill...

However, by the same token, I don't think that you can call a radiator 'hand-made' because someone designed a program to cut them on a water-jet...rather, they are skillfully designed, then created by machine...

Hand-made involves someone using their hands to 'make' it, not just 'design' it, in my mind...this isn't to detract from computer-assisted work...just to say that the ultimate degree of 'hand-made' involves using one's hands...


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## Russianwolf (Nov 13, 2008)

Sorry Skye, but you are reading something into my words that simply isn't there. I said using a computer removed THAT skill (That being the hand skill of control of the tool), I never said that programming a computer is not a skill. But they are vastly different types of skills. I can do one, but not the other. Some can do the other, but not the one I can.


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## Skye (Nov 13, 2008)

Russianwolf said:


> Sorry Skye, but you are reading something into my words that simply isn't there.



If you read what I quoted from you then it should be clear why it came across as I took it. It's important to be crystal clear when your debating the idea , even hinting at the idea, that you're going to label someone else's work this or that.

It's all a matter of semantics. In particular; How far detached from the actual object are you willing to go and still call it 'hand made'?

A man sitting on a rock in Ecuador, using a rough tool to carve a tagua nut.
A man sitting on a chair in America using a turbo carver to carve a tagua nut.
A man sitting behind a computer, punching every square millimeter into a computer to mill a tagua nut.

The point in which you draw the line may be the last option. I'm willing to bet my right tagua nut that the guy in the first sentence would scoff at the second one being 'hand made'. One you would probably feel quite justified with.


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## rherrell (Nov 13, 2008)

See what you started, Brian?:wink:


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## Russianwolf (Nov 13, 2008)

I don't know Steve. If I were Ken, I might be more upset about you crediting Bruce for designing the Flame Pen kits. :biggrin:

I stand by my original assessment. You can't rightly call something "hand made" when you've removed the skilled (regardless of how skilled) handwork that goes into it. CNC is not skilled hand work, it's skilled programming work. Niether Bruce nor Ken claims their computer aided items as "hand made" to my knowledge. 

As to your three items.  If you or anyone wants to force the second to say "rotary tool carved", then the first should be made to say "rough tool carved" since neither of them actually did the work with the "hands". :wink:

And I'm always up for Some antics (read semantics)


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## Mudder (Nov 13, 2008)

I once had a war of words with a pretty well known cue maker and he stopped answering emails when I posed this question to him.


He stated that a cnc takes the "art" out of the project but he freely admitted that he used a pantograph. He stated that once programmed, all you had to do on the cnc was "call up" the program, Load and go. I countered by asking him  how this differed from his pantograph where he just pulled out a template and traced it with his stylus. In both cases you come up with something that can be repeated time and time again but this <hurrrrumph> "Gentleman" insisted that his cues are still handmade because his cutters were moved by human power and not machine power.

I guess it's all in the way you choose to perceive things....... 




I think this thread is going to be interesting to watch if it don't go south quickly and get locked.


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## marcruby (Nov 13, 2008)

Skye said:


> It's important to be crystal clear when your debating the idea , even hinting at the idea, that you're going to label someone else's work this or that.



That's hardly the case.  Discussion (I have no idea why you think this is a debate) often consists of people expressing their opinions as they work them out.  I am, after all, not trying to prove you wrong, but to express what I think.  And I would hope you are doing the same.  After all, in the final analysis, neither of us should be beholden to the other.

Marc


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## maxwell_smart007 (Nov 13, 2008)

So now it's become a discussion of the art of discussing eh? 

If I could debate a bit farther, given your example:


> A man sitting on a rock in Ecuador, using a rough tool to carve a tagua nut.
> A man sitting on a chair in America using a turbo carver to carve a tagua nut.
> A man sitting behind a computer, punching every square millimeter into a computer to mill a tagua nut.



Looking at these situations, the individual in situation A and the one in Sit. B are both directly moving the cutter in real time, according to their whims as the design progresses...the REAL TIME issue is the one that I would like to stress - they are, in any given moment, manipulating a cutting tool...

In Situation B, the cutter is pre-programmed, and there is no element of human 'error' possible, except at the design stage.  The design is created in a language that a computer can interpret, and then the computer does the carving...

SO, that means the the COMPUTER is the one responsible for the carving, as it is the one controlling the direction of the cutter in real time...

Andrew

Edited to fix botched quote job! :biggrin:


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## Skye (Nov 13, 2008)

marcruby said:


> Discussion (*I have no idea why you think this is a debate*) often consists of people expressing their opinions as they work them out.  I am, after all, not trying to prove you wrong, but to express what I think.  And I would hope you are doing the same.  After all, in the final analysis, neither of us should be beholden to the other.





> *Debate*
> noun, verb, -bat⋅ed, -bat⋅ing.
> –noun
> 1. 	*a discussion*, as of a public question in an assembly, involving opposing viewpoints: a debate in the Senate on farm price supports.



Your hopes are confirmed. If you read my first response to this thread, it's right there as well.


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## sbell111 (Nov 13, 2008)

Why are people getting bendy about this issue?  Sure, 'hand made' is a term that is defined differently by each of us.  As long as we can rationalize that decision to ourselves and defend it to customers, who cares?


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## bitshird (Nov 13, 2008)

Back in the 1970s when my wife and I started making southwestern jewelery, there were certain descriptions and caveats, according to the Hopi Tribal definition, hand made meant that there could be no machines used all work had to be done with hand tools, Rolling mills were not allowed, buying pre rolled sheet, wire,or bezel was a no no, sheet had to be hand hammered, filed and sanded, wire had to be pulled through draw plates, and casting was a sin. The other tribal conventions were allowed more latitude, especially with regard to raw materials, by the early 80s all this had been tossed out the window. I had the privilege of knowing two of the best Hopi silversmiths of that era, Preston Monongay and Charles Laloma. I was fortunate to be allowed to watch them work and learned a lot from these gentlemen, they did not use an electric buffer, they used deer hide and ash to polish their overlay pieces, all their stamps were made from valve stems and old files, which were annealed hammered to shape then incised with files. so in this vein what we do would only be considered hand crafted, since much of the work involved is done with our hands. This became such a bone of contention that New Mexico passed several laws outlining the criteria of hand Made, Hand crafted, Sand cast or Machine cast. 
I've seen state employees come through the old Santa Fe flea market and issue citations for violating these laws, same in Taos. So on my business cards and website I try and stress that my pen are hand crafted, I've used my CNC mill to design a couple of pocket clips, but the ones we get in the kits are all die struck with few exceptions. I suppose if a person wanted to get anal they could point out that our pens that use kits are basically Hand assembled, (doesn't have a very classy sound to it though)


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## Daniel (Nov 13, 2008)

For me there is vision that is involved. Not everyone has the ability to imagine a finished product or design. next there is even possessing the knowledge to accomplish the task. this is a large part of why so many people advance in there pen making when they join this group. Next there is possessing the tools etc that are required. this is not small task in itself. Finally there is the dexterity and handling of those tools and equipment in order to get the desired outcome. I have had this dramatically proven to me when introducing a friend to making pens. not everyone has the physical skills needed to turn pens. try to carve a horse and then tell me how much a power chisel contributes to the process. of course the idea that a machine can control itself is questionable but still the original ability to envision is necessary. the knowledge to program the machine is now a new required skill and the need for coordination and dexterity is removed. for some this is simply a trade off of skills, for others it is crossing a line that no longer qualifies as hand made. for me hand made requires the dexterity and coordination. you can hand paint items and you can silk screen them, one requires artistic talent and control. the other requires the artistic talent but knowledge of a process. it is the process that crosses the line for me.


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## marcruby (Nov 13, 2008)

Skye said:


> In the end it's an unanswerable question that's not really worth asking.



Now that you mention your first post...  I think unaswerable questions are some of the most valuable to ask.  I can shape my own answers by listening and learning from you.  Or not as the case may be.  What's really important is that no one should claim a stranglehold on the truth.  That way we can all learn frim the exchange.

Marc


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## GouletPens (Nov 13, 2008)

My, how one little question can spark such deep and philosophical debates amongst us....I'll have to start using the word "pontificate" more often!


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## Chasper (Nov 13, 2008)

I'm a lithic artist, I can start with a piece of chert and using only a hammer stone and an elk tine, I can make stone points and other tools.  That is pure handmade and it goes beyond the definition I choose to apply to pen turning.  I don't believe there are any CNC flintknapping machines but if there were, it would bother me to call the output handmade.  For pen turning it wouldn't bother me to call something handmade when I used a CNC router, CNC lathe, and laser engraver. 

The point is, my definitions are not the same as those of others, and my definitions are not always consistent for various things that I do myself.  But they are my definitions and I choose to adhere to them.  I have no problem with others defining handmade as they see fit. 

The reason to make this point is that as I read Brian's original question I think he asked what defines handmade to me/us.  He didn't set out to convert anyone to his thinking.


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## CaptG (Nov 13, 2008)

All I want to know is when can Skye come get his one armed monkey out of my shop.  I just know I did not make that one box of pens, it had to be Skye's monkey.


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## Skye (Nov 13, 2008)

CaptG said:


> All I want to know is when can Skye come get his one armed monkey out of my shop.  I just know I did not make that one box of pens, it had to be Skye's monkey.



Just don't use the words "sanding lines" around him and everything will be juuuuust fine.


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## btboone (Nov 13, 2008)

In the jewelry world, the definition of hand made means a human guiding a cutter.  This can be a rotary tool or a hand lathe.  No need to be foot pedaled.  CNC or laser doesn't count because the human doesn't guide the cutter.

The thing I do like about CNC is that it is more accurate than a human can produce.  There are certain things that I don't want hand made including my car engine, my machine tools, lasers, and stuff like that.  CNC machines are just tools to be used for their chosen end purpose, the same as hand gouges, or drill presses.  Nothing more, nothing less.  I want accurately sized rings and perfectly fitting quad lead threads the first time out and able to be done quickly.  It certainly could be done by hand, but I choose not to.  There is the business side of it to consider as well.  I love artistic designed stuff.  I love it more when I can make somewhat artistic stuff, enough to make happy customers, and make decent money with it as well.


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## wolftat (Nov 14, 2008)

I think that from now on I am going to chew the blanks down to size and rub them on a rock to sand them. The nibs will have to be made in the same fashion and I will use berries that have been crushed between my buns for ink. Now can I claim that my pens are handmade or do I have to claim that they are chewed up wood? This whole thing is getting as rediculous as the punctuation patrol was. I make my pens, whether I use a tool, a machine, or a rock they are made by ME. I think I will just call my pens home made since they are made in a section of my home.


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## btboone (Nov 14, 2008)

That's true. Anything can be homemade as long as you live at the factory. :biggrin:


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## marcruby (Nov 14, 2008)

Isn't this whole discussion equally applicable to an artist who creates an etching print?  Say in a small, signed edition.  There's certainly human input in creating the plates, but priduction is done via an automated device.

I guess, to me, that as long as the creator is the artistic director the object is humanmade, i.e., man made.  I think the break comes when I go to a special computer and type in something like 'statesman pen with bloodwood and floral inlay,' tell the customer to lay their hand on a sensitive plate, and then hit return.  Out pops a pen that I really have had nothing to do with.

Marc


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## Mudder (Nov 14, 2008)

wolftat said:


> I and I will use berries that have been crushed between my buns for ink.





Neil,

Please don't send me a Christmas card.... O.K. ?  :biggrin:


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## GoodTurns (Nov 14, 2008)

wolftat said:


> I think that from now on I am going to chew the blanks down to size and rub them on a rock to sand them. The nibs will have to be made in the same fashion and I will use berries that have been crushed between my buns for ink.



Neil,

Technically, I think these would have to be labeled as 
A: Tooth, butt and handmade and B:Hazardous Materials

:biggrin:


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## Skye (Nov 14, 2008)

Mudder said:


> Neil,
> 
> Please don't send me a Christmas card.... O.K. ?  :biggrin:



Just as long as it's not a scratch-n-sniff you'll probably be safe.


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## maxwell_smart007 (Nov 14, 2008)

wolftat said:


> This whole thing is getting as rediculous as the punctuation patrol was. I make my pens, whether I use a tool, a machine, or a rock they are made by ME.



I didn't think it was really a big issue to debate the semantics of something, but again, that's my philosophical background...

If it offends you to discuss the meaning of 'hand-made', I'll refrain from doing so further...I just thought it was a neat discussion...

So if you want to call your pens whatever you like, feel free...I was just debating the issue as presented...but I don't see why that makes this ridiculous, or implies 'grammar police' connotations.


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## Mudder (Nov 14, 2008)

wolftat said:


> I think that from now on I am going to chew the blanks down to size and rub them on a rock to sand them. The nibs will have to be made in the same fashion and I will use berries that have been crushed between my buns for ink. Now can I claim that my pens are handmade or do I have to claim that they are chewed up wood? This whole thing is getting as rediculous as the punctuation patrol was. I make my pens, whether I use a tool, a machine, or a rock they are made by ME. I think I will just call my pens home made since they are made in a section of my home.




What are you going to use as a finish? :question:


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## Rifleman1776 (Nov 14, 2008)

I haven't read all the posts because, as someone said, this debate is endless.
I am about to 'make' some knives from kits. All that is required is to make the slabs (handles) and attach. Now, when done, can I honestly say I 'made' the knife? Some would say yes. But, I'm making these for my own use and enjoyment, not to sell, so it won't be an issue.


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## OKLAHOMAN (Nov 14, 2008)

Can I get one of those to go along with my Pen Wizard?:wink::biggrin:




marcruby said:


> I think the break comes when I go to a _*special*_ _*computer*_ and type in something like 'statesman pen with bloodwood and floral inlay,' tell the customer to lay their hand on a sensitive plate, and then hit return.  Out pops a pen that I really have had nothing to do with.
> 
> Marc


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## Skye (Nov 14, 2008)

OKLAHOMAN said:


> Can I get one of those to go along with my Pen Wizard?:wink::biggrin:



I thought that was what a Pen Wizard did!


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## wdcav1952 (Nov 14, 2008)

Can we start the "how many angels can dance of the head of a pen" debate now?  It makes about as much sense as this topic IMHO.  :frown:

BTW, the angels cannot be Southern Baptist Angels. :biggrin:


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## Mudder (Nov 15, 2008)

wdcav1952 said:


> Can we start the "how many angels can dance of the head of a pen" debate now?



NO!



That type of debate would violate the policy on religion and politics.


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## nava1uni (Nov 15, 2008)

I have actually found this discussion interesting. I also make handmade leather products.  I cut the hides, hand tool them, hand sew them, dye and finish them.  I use rivets, buckles, snaps and tool all made out of metal by someone else, but I consider these items to be hand made.  In much the same way that I consider the pens and other items  I design and make to be hand made.  As several others have stated it is what you and the customer, if they exist in your world, decide whether  it is handmade or not.


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## wolftat (Nov 15, 2008)

maxwell_smart007 said:


> I didn't think it was really a big issue to debate the semantics of something, but again, that's my philosophical background...
> 
> If it offends you to discuss the meaning of 'hand-made', I'll refrain from doing so further...I just thought it was a neat discussion...
> 
> So if you want to call your pens whatever you like, feel free...I was just debating the issue as presented...but I don't see why that makes this ridiculous, or implies 'grammar police' connotations.


 Don't take anything posted here personal, it wasn't meant that way and it wasn't aimed at anyone in particular. We can call anything anything, and it is okay with me. There are way more important things in life than what we choose to call something. I may choose to call my pens "chicken toes" from now on just for the sake of a name.


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## maxwell_smart007 (Nov 15, 2008)

I'm stealing that name, Neil!  Chicken Toe Baron in spalted maple - has a ring to it, don't you think?


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## nwcatman (Nov 16, 2008)

Rifleman1776 said:


> I haven't read all the posts because, as someone said, this debate is endless.
> I am about to 'make' some knives from kits. All that is required is to make the slabs (handles) and attach. Now, when done, can I honestly say I 'made' the knife? Some would say yes. But, I'm making these for my own use and enjoyment, not to sell, so it won't be an issue.



i have "made" some of these knives too. when the people ask if i made em or not i say no, i put em together from a kit. and w/out fail i get "so you made em". and i say no, i assembled em. and then i get "so you made em". think next time i will just say i found em.


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## VisExp (Nov 16, 2008)

I think the vision of the creator is the most important thing. I get a lot of satisfaction from visualizing the final product and then working back wards to see how I can bring that vision into reality using the tools and materials at my disposal.

As far as what those tools are I don't really care much. Whether it is a router bit following a template, a scroll saw blade following a cut line on a pattern or a CNC router.

All diamonds have a flaw of some sorts. The closer to flawless a diamond is, the higher its value. Perhaps that is the same with hand made? While a laser engraved scrimshaw can easily approach flawless, doing so with a scratch awl is less likely, and so a higher value could be given to the artist who is able to craft a flawless design using a scratch awl. However this still does not take away the final vision which ultimately will set the value.

To many degrees we all use an automated process in making our pens. Isn't a set of bushings mounted on a mandrel just a very crude form of a CNC router?


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## Daniel (Nov 16, 2008)

Here is another angle on the subject that includes nothing about how much of your hands you used in making it. But it might apply. In the past three weeks or so I have been trading e-mails with a fella back east. He had seen my web site and liked my pens. He wanted something "Special" for Christmas gifts but was really having a hard time sorting his way through my web site. He did say he wanted a gel rollerball in a slim but not to slim of a pen. he wanted one Gold and One silver. He liked the Statesaman and Gent pens but thought they might be to big. He needed something that could be carried wrote like a rollerball and was not the average ordinary pen.
well for any of us that is pretty easy so I pointed him at the jr's. spend considerable time explaining the difference in Rollerballs and Gel ink. the pluses and minuses of a genuine rollerball and the issue of the cap etc. In short he was able to take a week or so and look again at my site with a fresh knowledge of what he was looking for.
 when he got back to me he was much more certain of what he wanted. the Jr. Gent in 10k and Ti Gold but he also mentioned he wanted a Gold Pen in Amboyna Burl, and  Silver pen in Blackwood. I quickly caught the problem in his selection and corrected it for him. I not only insured that he would get his Gold and Silver pen. I upgraded it at no extra cost to a Ti Gold Jr. Gent, and a Rhodium Jr. Gent. 
I have one extremely happy customer that has a very clear since that I am hands on. He has mentioned it more than once. I have found in many things I have done that just hearing your customer does more than anything to keep them a customer. I once looked at a yard for a woman who was getting it landscaped. she walked me around and described to me everything she was having done (I was just going to build her a deck, she had another contractor doing the landscaping) a few weeks later when I was starting the deck I noticed she did not really look all that happy. the landscaper was there with all his tractors and what not. I walked into her back yard, took a second or two to look around and turned to her with real surprise in my voice and said "This is not what you wanted' She sort of sighed and said I know but this and that and the other things was this long list of excuses the contractor had for it being done the way it had been. I talked to her about what she wanted for about 5 minutes describing how I had expected it to look and how it could have been done that way etc. She shocked half the life out of me when she looked at me and said "Can you still do that" and I said yes. she turned to her landscaper right there and then and fired him. I had just landed a $26,000 side job. to this day that lady will not let anyone but me touch her house, yard or fences. she also has the Butterfly garden she had dreamed of her entire life.


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## wolftat (Nov 16, 2008)

maxwell_smart007 said:


> I'm stealing that name, Neil! Chicken Toe Baron in spalted maple - has a ring to it, don't you think?


 I knew I should have copyrighted that name.:biggrin:


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