# Some FACTS about copyright



## DCBluesman (Mar 5, 2010)

*from http://www.sgrlaw.com/resources/trust_the_leaders/leaders_issues/ttl12/873/ the website of a well-known intellectual property law firm.*

*What can be Copyrighted?*



Almost anything can constitute copyrightable subject matter provided it is fixed in a tangible medium, which means you can see it, hear it, and/or touch it.

However, a copyright does not protect an idea—only the author’s particular expression of that idea. For example, you cannot copyright the idea of a garden sculpture of a little girl sitting on a park bench wearing a floppy hat. But, once you have made a sculpture of a little girl sitting on a park bench wearing a floppy hat, your expression of that idea will be protected. This does not mean that others cannot make sculptures using the same idea—a girl on a park bench wearing a floppy hat. It does mean, however, that if they copy your expression or their work is substantially similar in the eyes of the ordinary observer, their work may be an infringement of your work.

In the United States, the owner of the copyright can register a work with the Copyright Office of the Library of Congress if they submit a properly completed application form, nonrefundable filing fee for each application (for current fees, please check the Copyright Office Web site here, and a nonrefundable deposit of the work being registered. The deposit requirements vary depending upon the nature of the work, but generally speaking, two complete copies are required.



The Copyright Act lists the types of authorship which are protected under the Act (17 U.S.C. § 102(a)).

*Literary Works.* This category includes the obvious, such as books, newspaper articles, periodicals and manuscripts, and the not so obvious, such as catalogs, directories and computer programs (specifically recognized as copyrightable literary works by the Computer Software Copyright Act of 1990).
*Musical Works.* This includes both the music and the lyrics of a song, although the lyrics alone could be separately copyrighted as a literary work.
*Dramatic Works.* Dramatic works, by definition, portray a story or convey some type of theme through the use of dialogue or acting. Examples include theatrical plays, screenplays, works of musical theater and opera.
*Pantomime and Choreographic Works.* These are dramatic presentations without words, principally dance, but the protection does not extend to social dance steps.
*A copyright does not protect an idea—only the author’s particular expression of that idea.*


*Pictorial, Graphic and Sculpture Works.* This category includes two-dimensional and three-dimensional works of fine, graphic and applied art, photographs, prints, art reproductions, maps, globes, charts, technical drawings, diagrams and models. Not so obvious examples are labels on products if they contain more than just trademarks or short phrases or lists of ingredients. Also included are advertisements, dress and fabric designs and popular art, which encompasses a broad range of decorative or novelty items from jewelry to cemetery monuments—however, the copyright protects only the esthetic, ornamental aspects of a work, not its functional aspects. For example, you cannot copyright a spoon, because it is a useful article. However, if you apply a unique design to the handle of a spoon, that design, as applied to a spoon, can be copyrighted.


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## ROOKIETURNER (Mar 5, 2010)

Being new to this hobby, I am not sure that I understand. Can I, or Can't I make a clock part pen? Simple yes or no. Barry? Can I sell this pen? Can I pass it off as "my creation"? (not orginal concept, but something that I created with my own two hands?)

If I do, do I need Barry's permission. Will he sue if I sell it? Do I need to bow down and give him credit for the idea? A part of my profit? What? 

What about the computer board pens? Does someone hold the patent on those? I have seen several people selling thier own kits.

I saw a pen that was made from an old golf club with golf ball inlay. Should that guy copyright his pen? I thought that it was a good idea. Since turning I have begun looking around for things to turn in to pens. My daughters keep handing me stuff saying, "Daddy, make this into a pen." It's the nature of the beast.

Up until now, I was really enjoying the Pen Turning community.

I thought that this community was about showing each other how to make pens for fun and profit? Is the market that small that we have to copyright specific pen ideas? Come on...this is not right.


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## skiprat (Mar 5, 2010)

DCBluesman said:


> . It does mean, however, that if they copy your expression or their work is substantially similar in the eyes of the *ordinary observer*, their work may be an infringement of your work.


 
Lou, does this mean that as long as it doesn't take a *trained expert* to spot the difference, then it is ok? 

Would this mean that if I had copyright on using old bolts to make pens then no-one else could? Or would it mean that anyone still could use old bolts as long as the finished article didn't look very similar to mine?
Would only my original design be covered by the copyright, or would any variations also be covered?

LOL, I'll give you half an hour to research the answer, then I need to go to work:biggrin:


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## philb (Mar 5, 2010)

skiprat said:


> Lou, does this mean that as long as it doesn't take a *trained expert* to spot the difference, then it is ok?
> 
> Would this mean that if I had copyright on using old bolts to make pens then no-one else could? Or would it mean that anyone still could use old bolts as long as the finished article didn't look very similar to mine?
> Would only my original design be covered by the copyright, or would any variations also be covered?
> ...



Id have said that only the original design would be copyright protected. The method of making it cant really be copyrighted, that would have to be patented? So then the method and idea would be protected. But only to the degree that no one could make a direct copy, once an alteration has been made or a different end product then your not covered?

So unless its a direct copy or a very blatant copy with a minimal attempt to change then you'd be covered, but anything that shows more than a slight change not?

Thats how I see it anyway?

PHIL


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## Gary Max (Mar 5, 2010)

ROOKIETURNER said:


> Being new to this hobby, I am not sure that I understand. Can I, or Can't I make a clock part pen? Simple yes or no. Barry? Can I sell this pen? Can I pass it off as "my creation"? (not orginal concept, but something that I created with my own two hands?)


 

My small thought

In six months they will be for sale in one of the big catalogs.

Heck someone could sell the blanks here next week.

Look at the newest thing around here----Polymer Canes---then go check them out on ebay crafts---they have been around for a long time.


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## rjwolfe3 (Mar 5, 2010)

So how does one find out if an idea is copyrighted? You can search patents but can you search copyrights? If I come up with an idea and spend hours making it and post it here and along comes someone and says that I stole it from them, what then? For instance I have seen many 360 herringbone but is the idea copyrighted? I have also seen many Indian blankets but again is the idea copyrighted? This is all very confusing to me.


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## Brooks803 (Mar 5, 2010)

So if i stick a nib and refill into the end of my alarm clock i'm stepping on someones copyrighted toes???


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## mbroberg (Mar 5, 2010)

*What did I miss?*

I've seen a couple of things posted lately that MIGHT have raised some copyright questions, but I'm just kinda wondering...........What prompted this post?  

I find the information interesting, but also wonder, Lou, what compelled you to sit down at the computer and pound this out at 2:41am.?  Just curious

Mike Broberg


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## NewLondon88 (Mar 5, 2010)

rjwolfe3 said:


> So how does one find out if an idea is copyrighted?



*A copyright does not protect an idea—only the author’s particular expression of that idea.*[/quote]

Searching isn't all that easy, which is why there are services that do it.
Part of the problem is that there can be many ways to describe a process
or a finished product. (Copyright and trademark are very different things)


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## KenV (Mar 5, 2010)

Just to aid the discussion -- there is a material difference between a copyright and a trademark.   There is a huge difference between the two in the responsibility (and costs) for enforcement.   

There is an amount of copy that goes on in all work -- part if it is how one represents the work as a matter of ethic and how it is presented to the market -- People who write books expect to have the material in the books copied - and hope that they will be represented as "Malcomb Tibbitts style segmented bowl" when copied.


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## cozee (Mar 5, 2010)

I have copyrighted artwork in the past. All I will say about this is when I did so, I was required to remit pictures of said artwork, either individually or as a group or series. The copyright only applied to the artwork pictured.  

My personal view is for one that is concerned about copyrights is to go to the source, not rely on 2nd hand information. Check with the Copyright Office and or as has been posted, an organization that deals with said matter. "Artistic License" or variations can become a fine line. Violation of the wrong copyrighted material can cost you dearly!


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## jeff (Mar 5, 2010)

Here is a very informative document about US Copyright:
http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ01.pdf


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## Canedriver (Mar 5, 2010)

I think it is ironic that a person is claiming copyright on copyrighted items.

By his own admission he is using discarded parts (watch parts, beer caps, cigar bands etc)

Newsflash, Copyrights DO NOT transfer. This primarily protects authors of works such as books and music. Just because you buy it does not mean you hold the copyright to the work.

Trademarks ™ DO NOT transfer. Just because it is garbage or a discarded item in your eyes does not mean there is not a trademark on the item.

This is especially true for trademark items like beer caps and cigar labels that have logos on them.

This is a VERY tricky area and you can be sued by the holder of the copyright or trademark in the case of logos.

All the company or individual has to do is claim you diminished the value of his/her product by using and/or incorporating in your own and your liable. (See recent Louis Vitton case where Brittany Spears, Sony BMG, and MTV were sued. They basically took a car and used Louis Vitton imaging to spruce it up for a music video.) 

The above is just an example, but do you really think Tag Heuer or another high line watch wouldn't sue to protect its image when it sees parts plastered on a $50 or even a $100 pen kit? This is especially true of more public images such as beer caps. These companies WILL protect its image just as the NFL does.

I find it ironic that a person is claiming copyright on an item like this.

1) He doesn't hold the copyright for casting parts in acrylic/resin. I am pretty sure this has been around a LONG time.
2) He doesn't hold the copyright on the parts themselves even if they are "discarded", again Copyrights and Trademarks DO NOT transfer
3) He doesn't hold the copyright for the every day pen.

If your saying he holds the copyright on specifically casting pen parts in acrylic. I do not see a judge enforcing that as it is an _idea_ of a common practice for making pens, Stamp pens, coffee beans, etc.


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## Chasper (Mar 5, 2010)

ROOKIETURNER said:


> Being new to this hobby, I am not sure that I understand. Can I, or Can't I make a clock part pen? Simple yes or no. Barry? Can I sell this pen? Can I pass it off as "my creation"? (not orginal concept, but something that I created with my own two hands?)



Simple answer, yes to all.  

However, if what you make is an exact replica of an existing clock part pen, the original maker could claim first usage and if the original maker went to the trouble of copywriting the item, then you may be liable for damages.  What constitutes and "exact replica?"  Multiple courts have ruled that 3-5 changes in the design elements of a copywrited item is enough to equal a significant change and therefore is not protected under the earlier usage or copywrite.

Making them one at a time you would have a hard time making an exact replica, even if you used the exact same gears and springs they would end up in a slightly different position.

Caution: Never rely on an amateur for legal advice, I could be wrong.

How do you know if an item is copywrited?  In almost all cases you don't know unless you go to considerable time and expense to have it researched.  If you can prove first usage through a dated photo, dated sales ticket, printed copy and a copy of the printing invoice or some other method then the item you created is protected from that point forward.  But enforcement is up to you, if you see someone selling an exact replica it is up to you to prove that you created the item first.  If you can prove first usage, you can demand that the copier must stop creating and selling the item, but unless you have filed for a copywrite you are not likely to succeed in claiming and obtaining damages for their usage.


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## glycerine (Mar 5, 2010)

Seriously, what is this all about?  Certainly not Barry Gross' watch pen.  Didn't he make that years ago?


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## Monty (Mar 5, 2010)

So does that mean that any of the pens appearing on Barry's Eco-Friendly page, like the Cholla filled, snakes skin etc. cannot be sold by anyone other than him?
[FONT=Comic Sans MS, Arial, Helvetica]**[/FONT]


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## Texatdurango (Mar 5, 2010)

I just read two other threads to find out what prompted this thread and I think the whole situation is pathetic!

I visited the website of the member claiming he has a copyright on the watch design blanks as well as several other ideas. What I find amazing and pathetic is that on the same page where he displays his copyrighted ideas, he also displays his cactus blank pens (wonder where he got that idea?), circuit board pens, snake skin pens as well as all the other "ideas" we have seen on the forum over the past few years.

I guess it's OK to sell pens using other people's ideas or use their ideas as inspiriation then make slight changes and copyright your idea to keep anyone else from making similar designs.

This whole notion of seeing someone's work, being inspired by that work to create something of your own then applying for a copyright so no one can copy your "idea" is sad! How many neat designs have we seen on this forum over the years that were inspired by what others have done? I'm guessing that whoever thought about casting pasta in resin might have been inspired by seeing one of the coffee bean blanks. Where would we be if everyone copyrighted every blank they came up with to keep others from making a similar blank?

Not that I create many original ideas but in case I do, all I can say is that it will be a cold day in hell before I post anything on this forum again that has to do with anything I create for fear that some lurker will be inspired by what I do or simply take my idea, make some changes then copyright the idea to keep me and others from making my own idea!


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## Jmhoff10500 (Mar 5, 2010)

I definately hope not because it is very implosible that one man is the pioneer in every blank that he has on his website... 

The thing that got me going is the attack on a fellow forum members creativity, artistis expression, faith in us by posting a beautiful pen, and worst of all, his integrity!



Monty said:


> So does that mean that any of the pens appearing on Barry's Eco-Friendly page, like the Cholla filled, snakes skin etc. cannot be sold by anyone other than him?
> [FONT=Comic Sans MS, Arial, Helvetica]**[/FONT]


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## wood-of-1kind (Mar 5, 2010)

Very interesting and at the same time "sad" discussions that all have stemmed over 'watch parts'. Just hope that we all come to our senses and let the 'lagaleeze' be. Please let's continue to keep the IAP faith of "sharing ideas" and advancing our craft, without the "fear" of legal action.


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## gwisher (Mar 5, 2010)

So basically what I am seeing here is that we are ALL guilty of copywrite infringement!  Someone could come along and say that they made a simple Gold Sierra with a generic piece of oak as the blank 20 some years ago.  And I just made one last week, wouldn't I be guilty of this?  I love this forum beacuse it is a place to share ideas and learn from those who have more experience than I do.  

What consitutes a change in design?  If I were to make a wine rack I see in a magazine and get as close to it as I can but use different woods is this enough difference to make it "my own"?  I have often wondered this when I buy plans and they say "you cannot sell any made copy of the finished item".  Is that an exact copy of what they have made (ie materials and final dimensions) or can I change just a small portion of it to make it legal?


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## Texatdurango (Mar 5, 2010)

wood-of-1kind said:


> Very interesting and at the same time "sad" discussions that all have stemmed over 'watch parts'. Just hope that we all come to our senses and let the 'lagaleeze' be. *Please let's continue to keep the IAP faith of "sharing ideas" and advancing our craft, without the "fear" of legal action*.


 
*It's a bit too late for that!* What some see as "sharing ideas" and "advancing our craft" is seen as "Copyrights" and "Money, money, money" to others.


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## mbroberg (Mar 5, 2010)

Here is my plan.......I hereby relinquish any proprietary right to any of the concepts listed.  In fact, I encourage others to adapt them as their own :biggrin:.



Keep checking IAP for new ideas.
Adapting those ideas into my pens.
Posting the results and requesting critical feedback so as to become a better pen maker.
Dreaming of the day that I will have an original idea that someone else believes is worth stealing.
And most importantly.........



Refusing to allow silly discussions such a this one dampen my spirits, hesitate to post, or to incorporate the ideas I get from the members of this site into my work.
Don't get me wrong, I respect the laws and intellectual property rights of individuals.  I just don't think I need to obsess over them as I go about my daily routine.  If I ever post something that leads to a, "Cease & Desist" letter then I'll deal with it.  Until then, I'd rather spend my time thinking about how to custom make a clip or grip.


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## razor524 (Mar 5, 2010)

Could someone point me to the two posts that caused this issue.  I am very interested in this.


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## mbroberg (Mar 5, 2010)

Here is one, not sure about the other.

http://www.penturners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=58871


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## jttheclockman (Mar 5, 2010)

razor524 said:


> Could someone point me to the two posts that caused this issue. I am very interested in this.


 

Ray, it is Jeff Tates watch part pen he showed. They are under the Show off your pens forum. It is a shame it has gotten to this point and I, like the others would not worry about this. Continue to do the best in whatever you are making and continue to share with us all. I think it is a rediculous claim that would not hold water. I think I will copyright these words:biggrin:


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## Canedriver (Mar 5, 2010)

jttheclockman said:


> I think I will copyright these words:biggrin:



:laugh:


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## Jmhoff10500 (Mar 5, 2010)

I thought of them first and already have them copyrighted!!! You cannot use them!:biggrin:



jttheclockman said:


> Ray, it is Jeff Tates watch part pen he showed. They are under the Show off your pens forum. It is a shame it has gotten to this point and I, like the others would not worry about this. Continue to do the best in whatever you are making and continue to share with us all. I think it is a rediculous claim that would not hold water. I think I will copyright these words:biggrin:


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## ROOKIETURNER (Mar 5, 2010)

Texatdurango said:


> *It's a bit too late for that!* What some see as "sharing ideas" and "advancing our craft" is seen as "Copyrights" and "Money, money, money" to others.


 
This is my concern as a newbie. I am now afraid to post a pen on this forum. I am afraid that anyone can claim that they had the idea first, copyright it and then tell me that I am infringing or negatively impacting thier business, and I need to cease and desist.

I am sorry but guys like Barry are going to ruin IAP.

Barry, you need to get better lawyers because it does not matter if the material has been discarded, you are still profiting from a trademarked image and name. Someone should probably contact each company that you have placed on your pens for sale and have you cease and desist from making a profit from someone else's image. There may also be damages to pay. 

These big corporations have a lot of money and several lawyers dedicated to ensuring thier companies rights.

Let's face it, the only reason they buy a beer cap pen or a cigar logo pen is due to the recognized images that have been placed in the pen. Anyone with two brain cells would have eventually, if they have not already, made a pen like these.

Didn't someone already mention on the other thread about a $16k watch that had the gears molded in the pen? Was that pen made before or after Barry's? If it was made before Barry's, than he cannot claim that it was his idea. If it was made after Barry's, then my question would be, "Did Barry conact the Jeweler and ask them to remove it from their site?"

My personal opinion is that Barry should back off. We should try to repair the damage to the IAP and move on. I will also say that I don't care about the "LEGASLEEZES". I am going to make pens, I am going to post pens, and I am going to sell pens. If anyone has a problem with it, tough!


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## razor524 (Mar 5, 2010)

Please do not construe this as legal advice, I am a lawyer and have to say that, but I just wanted to share this section of the United States Code with you:

*17 USC § 102. Subject matter of copyright: In general* 
      (a) Copyright protection subsists, in accordance with this title, in original works of authorship fixed in any tangible medium of expression, now known or later developed, from which they can be perceived, reproduced, or otherwise communicated, either directly or with the aid of a machine or device. Works of authorship include the following categories: 
      (1) literary works;  
      (2) musical works, including any accompanying words;  
      (3) dramatic works, including any accompanying music;  
      (4) pantomimes and choreographic works;  
      (5) pictorial, graphic, and sculptural works;  
      (6) motion pictures and other audiovisual works;  
      (7) sound recordings; and  
      (8) architectural works.  
*(b) In no case does copyright protection for an original work of authorship extend to any idea, procedure, process, system, method of operation, concept, principle, or discovery, regardless of the form in which it is described, explained, illustrated, or embodied in such work. 
*


You can sculpt a naked woman, copyright your sculpture, doesn't mean naked women are off limits to other artists!!


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## DCBluesman (Mar 5, 2010)

Important points:  

Processes cannot be copyrighted.  Process protection is afforded only through a patent. Derivative work is tightly defined.  Copying anyone's watch pen precisely, then removing a tiny part will likely be considered derivative.  Using a different model or brand of watch, or placing the pieces in different places would not be considerivative. Case law looks to what is substantially the same, which may be a violation, or conceptually the same, which is generally not.  And yes, Steven, the standard is an average person being able to tell the difference.

Ideas cannot be copyrighted, patented or trademarked. Period.

As for why I posted this, I get tired of hearing folks make unsubstantiated legal claims.  This nonsense needs to stop.  It defeats the progress of art and technology.

As for why I posted it at 2:41 a.m., I needed a break from working!


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## jocat54 (Mar 5, 2010)

Well here's my 2 cents worth(maybe one cent) being new to the forum. None of this changes anything for me. If I want to make something I will (or try) i will continue to read the posts on this forum and post pictures when I think they might be worthwhile--if they look like someone elses--sorry--get a life. It's not like I'm making a million dollars doing this--I do it because I enjoy doing it.

I really enjoy reading this forum and I am always amazed at the talent and creative  people on here. I hope they all continue to post.


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## maxwell_smart007 (Mar 5, 2010)

It doesn't affect me, because I'm not making proprietary designs and selling them for a profit...

I make pens for fun.  

But if I was a pen designer, would I have to copyright my 'expression of idea' and then patent the 'process'?  If I was planning on selling the idea and process for profit, then yes...luckily, there are very few of us that fit into that niche.  

We're in an educational forum, where we learn from each other.  If we're worried about others stealing our ideas, then we're likely in the wrong place.


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## Russianwolf (Mar 5, 2010)

DCBluesman said:


> Important points:
> 
> Ideas cannot be copyrighted, patented or trademarked. Period.


Lou, I think Ideas can be patented. 

There was a case not so long ago about ebay having to pay a guy royalties or some such because he had patented the idea of the combination of an auction on the internet. Apparently that's all this guy does for a living is come up with ideas and patent them, then either sell the rights or sue when someone else utilizes what they may think is an original idea.

I could be wrong, but I swear I saw something on this case a while back.


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## maxwell_smart007 (Mar 5, 2010)

One other thought - much of the extensive research that many of us do to learn how to cast, create, and sculpt pens comes from looking at other posts here at the IAP...

If someone then comes along and then copyrights the idea, I wonder who would have the legal upper hand?   I would imagine that nearly every type of pen has been put on here or cast in resin at one point...

Just a musing...


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## skiprat (Mar 5, 2010)

LOL, well I'm not really into gang banging anyone, so I won't add my thoughts on the particular artist ( but let's face it guys, he *is* an artist )

BUT....:biggrin: as many people suggest, it's open season on watch-part-pens, so I snuck up to my son's bedroom and nicked his watch!!

Getting it apart was a doddle !!!:wink:

Only one snag:redface: There's only about 4 bits in it and the one or two gears are plastic......

Someone might have told me that it should be an analogue windery uppery one!!!!

Ya think I'll get it back together before he comes home?:tongue:


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## razor524 (Mar 5, 2010)

The last thing I will say on the topic, as I need to go do some actual work, is that even if there is a finding of a copyright infringement, which does not seem likely, the next issue in any suit is damages.  This just means what was lost by the copyright holder.  Sony and the other big corporations sued Napster because they were losing millions of dollars to music sharing, I do not see a lawyer taking a case against a person to recover 150 dollars for a high end pen that some lowly pen maker like myself sold at a craft sale.  The filing fees are almost that much these days.  I personally think that this is a non issue and people should continue to make and show off their creations on this site.    I am off to glue macaroni to a pop bottle, copyright it, and then sue the entire United States kindergarten population come Christmas time!!  Sweet!


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## Glass Scratcher (Mar 5, 2010)

Ray

Thankyou for your input.  It's great to have a bonafidey lawyer to get information from. 





razor524 said:


> Please do not construe this as legal advice, I am a lawyer and have to say that, but I just wanted to share this section of the United States Code with you:
> 
> *17 USC § 102. Subject matter of copyright: In general*
> (a) Copyright protection subsists, in accordance with this title, in original works of authorship fixed in any tangible medium of expression, now known or later developed, from which they can be perceived, reproduced, or otherwise communicated, either directly or with the aid of a machine or device. Works of authorship include the following categories:
> ...


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## shepardscross (Mar 5, 2010)

Just to add a different twist to this. 
I work as a Professional Chef, and know that there are some other Chef's out there that claim to have come up with a "New" idea and get mad when someone else copies it. But as a lot of my friends and colleagues know there is no such thing as a "New" recipes. They are just variations on what has come before. I for one like to know that someone likes something that I have made and wants to try it at home. 
I understand all about the copyright infringement and all that happens but if there wasn't someone trying something new then there would be no advancement in our society. I mean look at some of the crazy patents that are out there and then look at how someone changed one little thing to make it work better and got a patent for that.
I agree with razor in that people should continue to make and show off their creations on the site, that is how we learn new things.


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## maxwell_smart007 (Mar 5, 2010)

Let's remember that we should discuss ideas - not individuals; some of these statements above are beginning to attack individuals...

From the Acceptable Use Policy: 
*No personal attacks. Criticize ideas, not people. Flaming will not be tolerated. Broad, negative statements about individuals or businesses are not permitted.*


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## DCBluesman (Mar 5, 2010)

Russianwolf said:


> Lou, I think Ideas can be patented.
> 
> There was a case not so long ago about ebay having to pay a guy royalties or some such because he had patented the idea of the combination of an auction on the internet. Apparently that's all this guy does for a living is come up with ideas and patent them, then either sell the rights or sue when someone else utilizes what they may think is an original idea.
> 
> I could be wrong, but I swear I saw something on this case a while back.


 
Not to belabor the point, but in the interest of accuracy: (Emphasis added)

http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/doc/general/what.htm




> The patent law specifies the general field of subject matter that can be patented and the conditions under which a patent may be obtained.
> In the language of the statute, any person who “invents or discovers any new and useful process, machine, manufacture, or composition of matter, or any new and useful improvement thereof, may obtain a patent,” subject to the conditions and requirements of the law. The word “process” is defined by law as a process, act or method, and primarily includes industrial or technical processes. The term “machine” used in the statute needs no explanation. The term “manufacture” refers to articles which are made, and includes all manufactured articles. The term “composition of matter” relates to chemical compositions and may include mixtures of ingredients as well as new chemical compounds. These classes of subject matter taken together include practically everything which is made by man and the processes for making the products.
> 
> The Atomic Energy Act of 1954 excludes the patenting of inventions useful solely in the utilization of special nuclear material or atomic energy for atomic weapons.
> ...


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## grub32 (Mar 5, 2010)

I have a few comments on this subject...


Here is the question to consider...Who is given credit for the idea of Natural Selection? Charles Darwin.
Who was the first person to publish the idea?

NOT HIM!!

Why is he given credit? The reason is that he was able to set a precedent that the idea was his before the other published and presented. How did he do that? He actually mailed his original document, origin of species to another colleague in the US before the other was published. This dating of the work had set the precedent of his document being the first work and thus he was given the credit. 

I would think that posting pictures and explanations on a website would also set a precedent. I am not a lawyer, but if someone stole your idea and tried to copy that same exact idea and sell it, you would have the legal right to it.

Interesting conversation I must admit!!

Grub


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## Texatdurango (Mar 5, 2010)

maxwell_smart007 said:


> Let's remember that we should discuss ideas - not individuals; some of these statements above are beginning to attack individuals...
> 
> From the Acceptable Use Policy:
> *No personal attacks. Criticize ideas, not people. Flaming will not be tolerated. Broad, negative statements about individuals or businesses are not permitted.*


 
Andrew, I must have missed what you are referring too, I don't see individuals being ATTACKED.  Thanks for posting the forum policy but since this whole topic started because someone made an issue out of something, then isn't including that individuals actions in the conversation appropriate?  At least then, everyone will know what the heck this is all about!


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## Jmhoff10500 (Mar 5, 2010)

But that's a theory, not an application... Every theory has been copyrighted, but applications are either patents, or cannot be copyrighted. the theory of Natural selection may be copyrighted so noone can publish their own "The origin of species" however, if someone wanted to study the archipelagos and apply their own research and time into their own theory, this would not be covered under the copyright because it stemmed from their own research and data.



grub32 said:


> I have a few comments on this subject...
> 
> 
> Here is the question to consider...Who is given credit for the idea of Natural Selection? Charles Darwin.
> ...


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## snowman56 (Mar 5, 2010)

So much for selling my pens i will be afaraid the gator may have a copyright.


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## ROOKIETURNER (Mar 5, 2010)

skiprat said:


> LOL, well I'm not really into gang banging anyone, so I won't add my thoughts on the particular artist ( but let's face it guys, he *is* an artist )
> 
> BUT....:biggrin: as many people suggest, it's open season on watch-part-pens, so I snuck up to my son's bedroom and nicked his watch!!
> 
> ...


 
Too funny!


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## workinforwood (Mar 5, 2010)

I can't see how the watch pen can have a copyright simply because it uses items that are patented by another company.  Beyond that though, there are things in pens that can be copyrighted as artistic expression.  This does not hold strong in court though.  As we have recently discussed with the leaf pens.  The #1 thing the copyright on the concept will do is prevent someone else from claiming they invented it.  It does not prevent someone from running with the idea and mass producing it.  I mention my copyright on that pen, which is 100% made by me, not recycled from something else, because I want it to be known that it was born from my imagination and also hope to achieve some respect that someone will not begin to mass produce it.  If some company did mass produce it, the only thing I can stop is them saying they invented it, and because it is documented that they did not invent it, they can also not patent it.  I hope for the respect of one artists mind to another, as I freely offer out my idea's for others to use and simply ask that they limit their use with some common sense, like go ahead make a few leaf pens, sell the finished pens, no problem, but please don't make 50 blanks and be selling the blanks and all that.  I'm sure you guys understand this.  I don't feel the leaf pen is something I can ever make a fortune on because it is too labor intensive, otherwise I would have put it through as a design patent.  The leaf pen, a watch part pen, a label pen, none of those are patentable, but any of them can be design patented provided the watch parts and labels are not copyright/trademark/patented by someone else of course.  I have a lawyer and have discussed it all with him.  My pen idea's are safe only in that they were born from me. Any safety beyond that is by whatever your morals tell you what to do out of respect for me.  My artwork though..that is completely different, it is totally safe.  If you take one of my original intarsia's and think you can alter it by 10-15% and get away with it as your own, you are very mistaken!

Oh, and btw..if you come up with a pen concept that is very unique from anything else and want to protect it, you have only 1 yr from it's conception to file a design patent on it and you must not show the concept to anyone until the patent is approved.  A design patent is similar to a copyright for actual artwork.  It is quite solid and a person has to make some serious changes to your design in order to avoid complications.  A patent is going to protect the design and the entire concept/process.  A patent on a pen is most difficult to achieve.  Not impossible, but you have to prove beyond any doubt how this pen is so much different than the several hundred construction type patents that already exist for pens.  The design patent is the most affordable option that offers any type of solid protection for people in our positions.


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## jtdesigns (Mar 5, 2010)

Boy, I wish I could go back a few days and unpost my photos knowing now what this has caused.  Sorry for inciting a riot.  I really displayed it in the interest of our evolving craft.  BTW, that is too funny about the battery powered watch.  Yes, wind ups and autowinds are the preferred watches to use.  If anyone has any questions or issues feel free to PM me.

Regards,


Jeff Tate


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## dexter0606 (Mar 5, 2010)

Sad, sad, sad
But on a brighter note it has given me the drive to make one of these babies!!

Jeff


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## workinforwood (Mar 5, 2010)

What do I really want from people?  I just want a little respect.  Not bowed down to or anything crazy like that, I just want a little recognition for my brain output.  A simple..inspired by...  would be great.  I took ....'s ideas and turned them into this.  Is that too much?  Imitation is flattery.  You might imitate better than the original!  Either way..the original deserves a touch of respect....at least once in awhile.  Just my thoughts and feelings about the real root of the issue. If we didn't want to share, we wouldn't be here.

The watch pen inspired me.  But my interpretation is probably way different than many others.  I'm going to attempt to make a "watch" pen, but there will be no watch parts in it.  The gears have really been whirling in my head all day!  Whatever you are thinking about what I am thinking..you're probably not right.:biggrin:


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## kennspens (Mar 5, 2010)

does anyone know what barry gross's take is on the subject?


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## Russianwolf (Mar 5, 2010)

kennspens said:


> does anyone know what barry gross's take is on the subject?



page three

http://www.penturners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=59012&highlight=barry


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## Texatdurango (Mar 5, 2010)

I got all excited about making my own "watch workings" pen so I gathered up all our extra watches and not until dissassembling the fourth watch did I realize they are all digital and pretty much look the same inside!


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## Daniel (Mar 5, 2010)

Here are my thoughts. First I assume the idea to even copywriter a design comes from the idea that "Hey I worked hoard coming up with this idea and I want to be the one that is able to sell it". On this group it could also be an attempt to keep suppliers from being able to copy it. From information this thread it will not do either when it comes to something like a watch parts pen. It also displays a huge lack of understanding of the percentage of people that would actually cast their own even if they have the ability. the idea that people can be prevented from making pen blanks with watch parts is as ridiculous as saying hey I cast blanks with Alumilite so nobody else can. Okay so that is a bit broad. Maybe I make red and white blanks with Alumilite now can I keep other from making them. Nope don't think that one will fly either. Right so I make red and white swirly Alumilite blanks. Nope still not good enough. Fine I make a read and white swirly Alumilite blank with a horses head in it. okay now maybe we are getting somewhere and it will only apply to that exact horse head and it would most likely apply to any blank with that exact horses head on it. In truth it does little else than shows how far out of touch a particular member could be with the group. that they will display their Copyright blanks right next to every blank they "Borrowed" from others only shows they are concerned others will do to them what they have done to others. It sounds to me that they are concerned others will simply take their idea and profit from it just as they have been profiting from others ideas. It that a bad thing in either case? I think that is probably a personal decision and i also think it is revealing about character and purpose of the person making that decision. I try to sell items at very low process and without a profit in order to advance the craft of pen making. Others do what they do to further their personal finances. I will in fact step away from my non profit activities and allow a for profit venture to replace it. There is more motivation and more accountability they also have more reason to keep the product available. so there is both good and bad as it is on most cases.


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## jttheclockman (Mar 5, 2010)

jtdesigns said:


> Boy, I wish I could go back a few days and unpost my photos knowing now what this has caused. Sorry for inciting a riot. I really displayed it in the interest of our evolving craft. BTW, that is too funny about the battery powered watch. Yes, wind ups and autowinds are the preferred watches to use. If anyone has any questions or issues feel free to PM me.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> ...


 
Hey Jeff don't take this the wrong way but we have been down this road before. So you did not break any new ground here. Ask Barry why he does not participate much here any more. But he does seem to follow us. 

At least it made for some interesting dialog. Keep up the good work and good luck on the entry in the jury show.


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## jocat54 (Mar 5, 2010)

kennspens said:


> does anyone know what barry gross's take is on the subject?


 

Jeff apologized and I accepted - here are my thoughts - Intellectual Property can be copyrighted. When I publish my books the publisher and I both enjoy a copyright for that book or DVD. I did extensive research on the idea of placing watch parts, beer caps, cigar labels and fsihing fly lures on pen tubes and casting them in clear acrylic. This is call a "derivative work" and as such I can use watch parts, beer caps, cigar labels etc, because I am NOT selling a brand name watch, or beer or a cigar. I am using discarded material and creating a piece of art.
Yes, at the AAW I explainded how to make some of these pens and if you looked closely at the powerpoint presentation, there was a copyright symbol on the Eco-Friendly pens. I also said that I did not mind nor do I mind if you choose to make one for yourself but I do mind if you commercially market the pens as your own creation. 
Jeff and I met in Ohio at the pen show and we did speak on the phone several timesa since the show. I coached him on how to make the watch pen because he told me he wanted to make one for his father and himself and when I saw the posting on this site stating "My Latest Creations--Complexity of Time" and "This is from my Complexity of Time Series." Which implies that its his idea, and certainly states that he has made more, and will continue - by saying it's a series. That is where I have to draw a line in the sand to protect my intellectual property! - *Barry* Gross 
__________________
Barry Gross


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## glycerine (Mar 5, 2010)

I never understood how someone can claim that they are the "first" to do something (aside from maybe walking on the moon).  Especially in pen making.  Can you imagine how many penmakers there are who have never been to this forum?  Just because we have never seen pictures of a certain type of pen before doesn't mean that no one else has ever created one...


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## ROOKIETURNER (Mar 5, 2010)

I do not think that Barry's pen qualify as "derivative works". I found this link that describes what is a derivative work and how it has to be filed.

http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ14.pdf

Can Barry provide us with a copy of his Copyright? Just because I put a "c" by somthing does not make it a registered copyright.

As for using the names and trademarks, Barry is right, there is no infringement on the trademarks. He is not making a product that represents that company. Anyone can use the caps in the pens without worry from those companies in which their trademark is used. Using caps in pens would not fall under copyright law, it would fall under patent law as it is a process. I agree that you would have to duplicate his work in order for it to be a copyright infringement.

I also appologize if any of my comments have been construde as "personal attacks".


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## NewLondon88 (Mar 5, 2010)

ROOKIETURNER said:


> Can Barry provide us with a copy of his Copyright? Just because I put a "c" by somthing does not make it a registered copyright.



Actually, I think it does.
(perhaps not 'registered' copyright, but copyrights do not have to be
registered.. registrations simply strengthen the protection)
Copyright exists upon creation.
 It can be challenged, of course .. but putting that little
c symbol on something does, in fact, make it known that there is
a copyright claim.


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## Glass Scratcher (Mar 5, 2010)

NewLondon88 said:


> Actually, I think it does.
> (perhaps not 'registered' copyright, but copyrights do not have to be
> registered.. registrations simply strengthen the protection)
> Copyright exists upon creation.
> ...




http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-general.html#register
*Do I have to register with your office to be protected?*
No. In general, registration is voluntary. Copyright exists from the moment the work is created. You will have to register, however, if you wish to bring a lawsuit for infringement of a U.S. work. See Circular 1, Copyright Basics, section


I searched the copyright records for items by Barry Gross and there are only 7 items filed and none are pens, pen turning, ect.
http://www.copyright.gov/records/


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## ROOKIETURNER (Mar 5, 2010)

NewLondon88 said:


> Actually, I think it does.
> (perhaps not 'registered' copyright, but copyrights do not have to be
> registered.. registrations simply strengthen the protection)
> Copyright exists upon creation.
> ...


 
Yes, my point was that he indicated that it was a registered copyright. Hence the reason I said putting a c by does not mean that it is a registered copy right, and the copyright does not cover the general usage of watch parts in a pen.


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## Canedriver (Mar 5, 2010)

ROOKIETURNER said:


> As for using the names and trademarks, Barry is right, there is no infringement on the trademarks. He is not making a product that represents that company.



Thats not true. Put a trademark logo that you do not hold the rights to on anything and make a profit from it and that is trademark infringement. This is why you cannot make your own NFL jerseys and sell them. Your turning a profit on a trademarked logo or team name. If one of his beer cap pens shows a beer logo and he sells it that is infringement.

Actually you don't even have to sell it for it to be infringement. Google "louis vuitton sues Brittany spears, MTV, Sony BMG" you will see what I mean. You only have to lessen the value of the trademarked logo. All they did was put a louis vuitton logo on a dash of a car for a video and they got nailed for infringement. 3 minute video ended up costing Sony BMG and MTV each over $100,000.


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## VisExp (Mar 5, 2010)

razor524 said:


> You can sculpt a naked woman, copyright your sculpture, doesn't mean naked women are off limits to other artists!!



Well I'm very relieved to hear that!!


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## jlg2x (Mar 5, 2010)

jocat54 said:


> Jeff apologized and I accepted - here are my thoughts - Intellectual Property can be copyrighted. When I publish my books the publisher and I both enjoy a copyright for that book or DVD. I did extensive research on the idea of placing watch parts, beer caps, cigar labels and fsihing fly lures on pen tubes and casting them in clear acrylic. This is call a "derivative work" and as such I can use watch parts, beer caps, cigar labels etc, because I am NOT selling a brand name watch, or beer or a cigar. I am using discarded material and creating a piece of art.
> Yes, at the AAW I explainded how to make some of these pens and if you looked closely at the powerpoint presentation, there was a copyright symbol on the Eco-Friendly pens. I also said that I did not mind nor do I mind if you choose to make one for yourself but I do mind if you commercially market the pens as your own creation.
> Jeff and I met in Ohio at the pen show and we did speak on the phone several timesa since the show. I coached him on how to make the watch pen because he told me he wanted to make one for his father and himself and when I saw the posting on this site stating "My Latest Creations--Complexity of Time" and "This is from my Complexity of Time Series." Which implies that its his idea, and certainly states that he has made more, and will continue - by saying it's a series. That is where I have to draw a line in the sand to protect my intellectual property! - *Barry* Gross
> __________________
> Barry Gross


 
My question is this. If you don't want people to copy your idea, then why tell them how to do it in a book or video. Let them figure it out for themselves. Just my opinion.


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## Glass Scratcher (Mar 5, 2010)

> Originally Posted by razor524
> You can sculpt a naked woman, copyright your sculpture, doesn't mean naked women are off limits to other artists!!
> 
> 
> ...



Always finding the positive in the situation, eh Keith?


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## Gary Max (Mar 5, 2010)

Canedriver said:


> Thats not true. Put a trademark logo that you do not hold the rights to on anything and make a profit from it and that is trademark infringement. This is why you cannot make your own NFL jerseys and sell them. Your turning a profit on a trademarked logo or team name. If one of his beer cap pens shows a beer logo and he sells it that is infringement.
> 
> Actually you don't even have to sell it for it to be infringement. Google "louis vuitton sues Brittany spears, MTV, Sony BMG" you will see what I mean. You only have to lessen the value of the trademarked logo. All they did was put a louis vuitton logo on a dash of a car for a video and they got nailed for infringement. 3 minute video ended up costing Sony BMG and MTV each over $100,000.


 
Buy Jack Daniels Blanks here at IAP and get caught selling them at a show with certs-------guess who they go after ?????????


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## wdcav1952 (Mar 5, 2010)

Charlie,

Would you please break out your dead horse gif file?


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## NewLondon88 (Mar 5, 2010)




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## btboone (Mar 5, 2010)

>However, a copyright does not protect an idea—only the author’s particular expression of that idea. For example, you cannot copyright the idea of a garden sculpture of a little girl sitting on a park bench wearing a floppy hat. But, once you have made a sculpture of a little girl sitting on a park bench wearing a floppy hat, your expression of that idea will be protected. This does not mean that others cannot make sculptures using the same idea—a girl on a park bench wearing a floppy hat. It does mean, however, that if they copy your expression or their work is substantially similar in the eyes of the ordinary observer, their work may be an infringement of your work.

Hmm... Very interesting quote. Kinda reminds me of a few people "borrowing" my idea for the puzzle pen. I had several versions including individual laser cut pieces months before anyone else did that. Of this there can be no question. Yet the author claims on his site "The Original Puzzle Pen".  This is obviously a false statment and blatently disregards the very point of the quote and entire thread.  It's just not right to take full credit for an idea that was not yours to begin with.  I'm still waiting on the infringers to recognize this on their sites and/or royalty checks to start coming in for that one.


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## Russianwolf (Mar 5, 2010)

may not be correct on this, but he may be getting around the trademark laws by having multiple logoes on a single Item. since that prevents it from being a "Coors" pen, it may be a loop-hole.

Maybe a pen with the Clemson logo AND the Panthers logo would be in a loop-hole since it is neither a Clemson Penn, A Panthers pen, a NFL pen, or a College Football pen. It would just be a football pen.


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## Padre (Mar 5, 2010)

I apologize if any of my comments were taken as a personal attack, flaming or a broad negative statement about an individual or business.


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## cozee (Mar 5, 2010)

I have a few I'd like to share . . . 













And now for something completely different . . .


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## ROOKIETURNER (Mar 5, 2010)

Canedriver said:


> Thats not true. Put a trademark logo that you do not hold the rights to on anything and make a profit from it and that is trademark infringement. This is why you cannot make your own NFL jerseys and sell them. You cannot sell NFL logo'ed jerseys becasue they sell NFL jerseys. Your turning a profit on a trademarked logo or team name. It's not the profit. It is the image that a trademark protects. If one of his beer cap pens shows a beer logo and he sells it that is infringement. nope.
> 
> Actually you don't even have to sell it for it to be infringement. Google "louis vuitton sues Brittany spears, MTV, Sony BMG" you will see what I mean. You only have to lessen the value of the trademarked logo. All they did was put a louis vuitton logo on a dash of a car for a video and they got nailed for infringement. 3 minute video ended up costing Sony BMG and MTV each over $100,000. Because it lowered the image of the trademark.


 
That is not only true it is fact.
*Use for different goods or services*

The registration of a trademark includes an indication of the goods or services which it is intended to protect. *This means that, in principle, others are free to use the trademark for other goods or services*. However, there are some exceptions. As explained earlier, a trademark always runs the risk that it loses its distinctive character, which could mean that the trademark at some point is annulled.
*It is also an infringement if the use of the mark is such that it harms the trademark holder in an unfair way. The reputation or image that he has built could suffer from somebody elses use of the mark.*
** 
*Check out this site: http://www.iusmentis.com/trademarks/crashcourse/rights/*
** 
*It explains Trademarks and Infringements.*
** 
In the case of LV and Britney. They felt that the video lowered the standard of LV.


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## gbhazel (Mar 5, 2010)

I think the only person here that had an original idea for a blank was Curtis and his ......  Oh wait his cat already has a copyright on that blank.
:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:


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## Displaced Canadian (Mar 6, 2010)

Yeah, but is the cat willing to provide a DNA sample to prove that it was it's ...um... idea


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## Paul in OKC (Mar 6, 2010)

Texatdurango said:


> I got all excited about making my own "watch workings" pen so I gathered up all our extra watches and not until dissassembling the fourth watch did I realize they are all digital and pretty much look the same inside!



Good one!:biggrin:


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## soccer2010 (Mar 8, 2010)

Is there an article or presentation that is available on the watch parts pen?


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## wdcav1952 (Mar 8, 2010)

This link might be of interest with respect to clock part pens, copyright and the like.

http://www.luxist.com/2007/12/08/caran-dache-1010-pen/


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## shepardscross (Mar 8, 2010)

wdcav1952 said:


> This link might be of interest with respect to clock part pens, copyright and the like.
> 
> http://www.luxist.com/2007/12/08/caran-dache-1010-pen/



And as they state on the site.
"Two *cages*, one decorated with gear wheels, and the other with the bridges that link them, are fitted over a transparent body."
So it isn't made from parts from inside a watch.
I also agree with Cozee that we are beating a dead horse.
I am just a lowly turner who sometimes sells a few of his works.


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## OKLAHOMAN (Mar 8, 2010)

Classic case of the chicken or the egg....Gross or Caran d'Ache .:biggrin::wink:



wdcav1952 said:


> This link might be of interest with respect to clock part pens, copyright and the like.
> 
> http://www.luxist.com/2007/12/08/caran-dache-1010-pen/


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## johnnycnc (Mar 8, 2010)

I have no idea what this is about, but figured I should post.


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## BRobbins629 (Mar 8, 2010)

johnnycnc said:


> I have no idea what this is about, but figured I should post.


If you were reading, you would know you weren't supposed to post, just watch.


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## wdcav1952 (Mar 8, 2010)

shepardscross said:


> And as they state on the site.
> "Two *cages*, one decorated with gear wheels, and the other with the bridges that link them, are fitted over a transparent body."
> So it isn't made from parts from inside a watch.
> I also agree with Cozee that we are beating a dead horse.
> I am just a lowly turner who sometimes sells a few of his works.


 

Give me a break.............


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## johnnycnc (Mar 8, 2010)

BRobbins629 said:


> If you were reading, you would know you weren't supposed to post, just watch.



I saw the part about a watch, but I don't wear one.
 Is someone getting banned soon?
I have popcorn!


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## BRobbins629 (Mar 8, 2010)

johnnycnc said:


> Is someone getting banned soon?


Its just a matter of time.


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## jttheclockman (Mar 8, 2010)

Time waits for no one so we must move on. I think I will coyright those words too. UH OH I think they were already. :biggrin:


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## workinforwood (Mar 9, 2010)

johnnycnc said:


> I saw the part about a watch, but I don't wear one.
> Is someone getting banned soon?
> I have popcorn!



arty:

You run out of popcorn just give me a call John.  wifey is a super couponer!!!


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## fred holsclaw (Mar 9, 2010)

much a do about nothing


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## wdcav1952 (Mar 9, 2010)

fred holsclaw said:


> much a do about nothing


 
To be technically correct, it is actually _much* ado* about nothing._


:biggrin:


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## ed4copies (Mar 9, 2010)

wdcav1952 said:


> To be technically correct, it is actually _much* ado* about nothing._
> 
> 
> :biggrin:





My FIRST entry on this thread!!!  (Man, that's self control!!)

*
**It's much DO-DO about Don't Don't!!*​


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## ldb2000 (Mar 9, 2010)

ed4copies said:


> My FIRST entry on this thread!!! (Man, that's self control!!)
> 
> 
> *It's much DO-DO about Don't Don't!!*​


 

Ed , it took you 5 pages to come up with THAT???  your slipping :tongue::biggrin:


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