# Turning between centers vs. mandrel?



## rickjake

Hi everyone, I recently watched a video Not much to do when your laid up, recovering! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6wTnychR1U The gentleman says that turning between centers with dedicated bushings(not the kit assembly bushings) is way easier than using a mandrel. What are the pros and cons to turning between center(Dead center and Live center) versus MT pen mandrel? Looks to me like the way to go? Just have to buy a different set for each pen kit. Any thoughts one way or another?

Thanks friends,

Rick


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## Monty

I switched to TBC several years ago and have never looked back. The only drawback would be you can only turn one barrel at a time, which is no problem IMHO.


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## mikespenturningz

I always turn between centers now. It is what I like but it is not the only way that is for sure.


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## JD Combs Sr

Monty said:


> I switched to TBC several years ago and have never looked back. The only drawback would be you can only turn one barrel at a time, which is no problem IMHO.


What Monty said... except in my case it has only been a year or so.


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## rickjake

mikespenturningz said:


> I always turn between centers now. It is what I like but it is not the only way that is for sure.


 
Hey Mike, So its better this way because? I only ask because I have never done one or other

Thanks,

Rick


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## mikespenturningz

Well I didn't say it was better in my post at all I just said it is what I do. Since you asked though I find that the flex of the mandrel and make things a bit more unstable in my opinion. I also like the bushings that i get from JohnnyCNC and Laserlinez that are much more precision made than the mass produced bushings that I get from other sources. I also find that concentrating on a single barrel forces me to not be in any sort of hurry to get to the second barrel. It is just what I like. I am sure there are others that like the mandrel and this post is not to say that they are wrong just I am different.


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## Falcon1220

I would like to try turning between the centers but are having trouble tracking down a 60 degree "dead centre" for the drive side. I have a 60 degree live centre.
Any suggestions


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## mikespenturningz

Falcon1220 said:


> I would like to try turning between the centers but are having trouble tracking down a 60 degree "dead centre" for the drive side. I have a 60 degree live centre.
> Any suggestions



Google lathe deadcenter and you will find lots of them . JohnnyCNC sells one.


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## BeSquare

Falcon1220 said:


> I would like to try turning between the centers but are having trouble tracking down a 60 degree "dead centre" for the drive side. I have a 60 degree live centre.
> Any suggestions



I picked this one up: H7967 Carbide-Tipped Lathe Center - MT2

It was cheap, shipped quickly and works great.

- Rich


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## SerenityWoodWorks

ON the same topic...sorta....Anyone have any luck converting all their bushings over to TBC by countersinking the hole with a 60degree bit?


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## mikespenturningz

SerenityWoodWorks said:


> ON the same topic...sorta....Anyone have any luck converting all their bushings over to TBC by countersinking the hole with a 60degree bit?



Yes it works just fine. I use my metal lathe to drill them out but if the bushing is way off to begin with I would not use it even if I did drill the angle into it. They are not nearly as nice as JohnnyCNC's bushings.


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## Monty

mikespenturningz said:


> Well I didn't say it was better in my post at all I just said it is what I do. Since you asked though I find that the flex of the mandrel and make things a bit more unstable in my opinion. I also like the bushings that i get from JohnnyCNC and Laserlinez that are much more precision made than the mass produced bushings that I get from other sources. I also find that concentrating on a single barrel forces me to not be in any sort of hurry to get to the second barrel. It is just what I like. I am sure there are others that like the mandrel and this post is not to say that they are wrong just I am different.


Like Mike, that is why I switched.



SerenityWoodWorks said:


> ON the same topic...sorta....Anyone have any luck converting all their bushings over to TBC by countersinking the hole with a 60degree bit?


This can be done, and I hve done it may times. The only thing to watch out for is that the hole in the mass produced bushings may be off center. To compensate, I rough turn with the bushings in place. Once I get close to the final diameter, I remove the bushings and just mount the barrel between centers and finish the last little bit, sand and then finish the pen. This will eliminate sanding the bushings down and the CA will not be on the bushings.


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## mikespenturningz

In hind sight I would not invest in any mandrels. I would invest in bushings and TBC.


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## BeSquare

I'd love to order some of the JohnnyCNC bushings but all the ones I'd need are sold out.

For now I'll just put the tubes straight between centers and use my caliper.

- Rich


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## mikebpeters

even if you don't TBC I would highly recommend finishing between centres if you use a CA finish.  makes it so much easier to make sure that the edges of your piece come out the way you want them.


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## BeSquare

mikebpeters said:


> even if you don't TBC I would highly recommend finishing between centres if you use a CA finish.  makes it so much easier to make sure that the edges of your piece come out the way you want them.



Total agree with this, plus it's much easier to remove the tube from the centers rather then gluing the bushings on


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## mikespenturningz

Delrin rod is so cheap it isn't funny and you can make your own finishing bushings from it.


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## lucky13

I have tried the TBC, and IMHO my favorite way is to use a mandrel with a mandrel saver. Using the mandrel saver all the pressure from the tail stock goes on the bushings and you get no flex at all. This is just my preferred way of turning pens.


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## rickjake

mikespenturningz said:


> Well I didn't say it was better in my post at all I just said it is what I do. Since you asked though I find that the flex of the mandrel and make things a bit more unstable in my opinion. I also like the bushings that i get from JohnnyCNC and Laserlinez that are much more precision made than the mass produced bushings that I get from other sources. I also find that concentrating on a single barrel forces me to not be in any sort of hurry to get to the second barrel. It is just what I like. I am sure there are others that like the mandrel and this post is not to say that they are wrong just I am different.


 
Thanks Mike, That's what I was thinking exactly, concentrate on one barrel at a time. I checked out JohnnyCNC looks like high quality equipment. Will check Laserlinez

Cheers

-Rick


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## mikespenturningz

One problem with only between centers is if you want to turn a 7mm pen. I am not sure if there are any bushings for them? Does anyone else have an answer for this? I never turn any 7mm pens anymore or have not needed to turn any for a long time.

Also I have not use a mandrel saver so cannot comment on them other than to say that I have also seen other posts that like them.


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## MarkD

mikespenturningz said:


> One problem with only between centers is if you want to turn a 7mm pen. I am not sure if there are any bushings for them? Does anyone else have an answer for this? I never turn any 7mm pens anymore or have not needed to turn any for a long time.
> 
> Also I have not use a mandrel saver so cannot comment on them other than to say that I have also seen other posts that like them.



JohnCNC makes 7mm TBC bushings.


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## BeSquare

mikespenturningz said:


> One problem with only between centers is if you want to turn a 7mm pen. I am not sure if there are any bushings for them? Does anyone else have an answer for this? I never turn any 7mm pens anymore or have not needed to turn any for a long time.
> 
> Also I have not use a mandrel saver so cannot comment on them other than to say that I have also seen other posts that like them.



I've been able to just turn 7mm pens between centers, though I think JohnnyCNC has a bushing option for 7mm.


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## walshjp17

MarkD said:


> JohnCNC makes 7mm TBC bushings.



Since JohnnyCNC was out when I was looking, I got mine from Lazerlinez.


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## ed4copies

Reading this entire thread, it boils down to this:
The bushings made for turning between centers are more accurate than the mass produced bushings!!  ABSOLUTELY CORRECT!!!

And you will need a different set for each pen type you turn.  These are far superior in quality and cost more.

So, if you plan to concentrate on a few pen styles, the expense of special bushings is no big deal.  If you want to turn LOTS of different pens (or just want to try a kit or two to see if you like it), the cost of bushings will raise your "price of entry".

FWIW!!
Ed


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## 1080Wayne

Perhaps a minority opinion , but bushings are totally optional . All pen styles that I turn . including slims , can be turned between 60 degree centers directly driving the tubed blank . Minor flaring of the tube ends will occur . leaving the material on the ends marginally thinner , which isn`t critical on most pens or materials . On those materials which are , such as Corian . many deliberately chamfer the blank ends to minimize failure during insertion anyway . 

I have Johnny CNC`s bushings for all of the pen styles that I turn , but only use them to set my calipers .


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## Bugmerc

I was thinking the flaring could be a problem, but as you point out, it it's stays just at the end I can't really see an issue with it. I suppose insertion would be easier that way. 
I guess doing it with no bushings means no cost of bushings, no lost bushings, no glued bushings. I just may have to try that...


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## BSea

mikespenturningz said:


> One problem with only between centers is if you want to turn a 7mm pen. I am not sure if there are any bushings for them? Does anyone else have an answer for this? I never turn any 7mm pens anymore or have not needed to turn any for a long time.
> 
> Also I have not use a mandrel saver so cannot comment on them other than to say that I have also seen other posts that like them.


If you don't see what you want on his website, send him an e-mail.  I don't know for sure, but it seems like he makes them when someone needs them, but doesn't show stock on his site anymore.  I have the 7mm triple play set, and they work great for many kinds of 7mm pens.



And back to the ops original question.  When I started, I read every article in the library.  At 1st I thought that TBC was more of an advanced way or making a pen.  But the more I read, the more it made sense to me.  So when I started buying accessories for my lathe, I skipped the pen mandrel.  Never missed it at all. Ok, there were a few times when doing several pens that I thought it would be nice to be able to finish both barrels at the same time.  But other than that, I can't think of any advantage a mandel has over TBC.


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## Tom T

I looked where do I get Johnny CNC bushing at? Help


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## Monty

Tom T said:


> I looked where do I get Johnny CNC bushing at? Help


Here.


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## mikespenturningz

Tom T said:


> I looked where do I get Johnny CNC bushing at? Help



Penturners Products!


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## Tom T

Thanks guys


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## jttheclockman

Now I will play devils advocate because that is what I have been told I like to do. So I will do that. Yes turning between centers is nice but it does add quite abit expense if you have to keep buying bushings for kits that you already have. I on ocassion use them. But I have an adjustable mandrel and I shorten it up to turn one blank at a time and never ever had an OOR blank. The whole trick is to not crush the barrel nut against the bushings and do not put so much pressure on the blank when turning. Do not overtighten the tailstock against mandrel. Let the tool do the work. I have used the same bushings for each kit for hundreds of pens. I only use them as a guide. I use my calipers to get me home. 

So it is possible to turn just fine using a mandrel and turning between centers is not the only answer. So there is another option for the original OP of this question. So when that person who said it was way easier than using a mandrel doesn't know what they are talking about. It is just another option but not necessarily the best one. Keep that in mind. Someone mentioned a mandrel saver. That is another option.


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## plano_harry

We should just write this up and put it in the library because it comes  up about 6 times a year, and has no definitive answer - other than TBC  is better and you need calipers whether you use bushings or not, mandrel or not. 

Harry


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## jttheclockman

plano_harry said:


> We should just write this up and put it in the library because it comes up about 6 times a year, and has no definitive answer - other than TBC is better and you need calipers whether you use bushings or not, mandrel or not.
> 
> Harry


 


AMEN


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## rickjake

plano_harry said:


> We should just write this up and put it in the library because it comes up about 6 times a year, and has no definitive answer - other than TBC is better and you need calipers whether you use bushings or not, mandrel or not.
> 
> Harry


 
Maybe so, It was ask by a new person who has yet to turn a pen, myself. It is meant for discussion not argument. There is more than one way to do just about anything. So other than a new person asking advice and learning from those opinions, should he or she be afraid to post questions other than, "nice pen" or "hello". From what I have read it seems obvious that people prefer whatever they prefer. Just looking for opinions, not arguments. When I buy a lathe and turn a pen I will post it and ask for constructive criticism. Until then I should be afraid to ask an opinion? I thought that's what forums are for, discussion. Thank you everyone, I now have a better understanding on this subject.

-Rick


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## jttheclockman

Rick

Do not take that the wrong way. The forum is always open for discussions and new pen turners are always welcome to ask any questions they want. But you will find and this is a perfect example, there probably always is no right or wrong answers and usually many ways to do things. As you see here, the feelings are mixed as to what is a good way to turn your blanks. Many times it comes down to just trying these things for yourself and you making the call as to the way you want to do things. This question gets brought up so many times. You can do a search on this topic and see many pages of answers. But again the more people answer the more divided the answers get. If you want more detailed info on this topic just type in Turning Between Centers in the Search box and you will find some posts actually have photos of what people do. Utube also has many videos on this subject. But keep in mind as I mentioned it is not the only way to turn your blanks. 

Happy turning and will be looking for your first pen photo. Now get that lathe and do some turning.  Lets talk about the lathe you are looking at.


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## rickjake

Hi John,

I totally agree with you one hundred percent. I wish I could get the lathe and start turning. As I stated in my introductions, that you may or may not have read. I am three weeks post op from my second cervical spine fusion due to an injury eight or nine years ago. Unfortunately it has left my left side partially paralyzed. It may come back may not. The doctors says will know more in six to twelve months. I found a few videos on YouTube that lead me here. I am amazed at the talent and work that people have here! I know most times its about finding your own way, believe me I am forty-six and have to learn how to use a walker. Its darn hard! One foot wants to go where ever it wants to.
In a nutshell I was a member of another forum totally unrelated to woodwork. The people that had been there a while would burn you on every post it would seem. I didn't want to just lurk around here and wanted some genuine advice, and be involved in some discussions So if I offended anyone or I seemed angry I am sorry. I didn't want it to come out defensive.

Sincerely,

Rick


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## Donovan

I TBC and I have turned with a mandrill as well, and all I can say is that I have never turned an oval pen when TBC. I have had a few when turning with a mandrill. I have a metal lathe and turn all my own bushings so I do not have the expense of buying cnc bushings. For me TBC works.

Donovan


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## PWL

Rick. Welcome aboard. Don't be offended. Most people will just tell you the correct forum to look at. Keep asking. Thats how most of us learn.

Paul


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## rickjake

PWL said:


> Rick. Welcome aboard. Don't be offended. Most people will just tell you the correct forum to look at. Keep asking. Thats how most of us learn.
> 
> Paul


 
Thanks Paul
You have a nice day also! means a lot.

-Rick


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## jttheclockman

rickjake said:


> Hi John,
> 
> I totally agree with you one hundred percent. I wish I could get the lathe and start turning. As I stated in my introductions, that you may or may not have read. I am three weeks post op from my second cervical spine fusion due to an injury eight or nine years ago. Unfortunately it has left my left side partially paralyzed. It may come back may not. The doctors says will know more in six to twelve months. I found a few videos on YouTube that lead me here. I am amazed at the talent and work that people have here! I know most times its about finding your own way, believe me I am forty-six and have to learn how to use a walker. Its darn hard! One foot wants to go where ever it wants to.
> In a nutshell I was a member of another forum totally unrelated to woodwork. The people that had been there a while would burn you on every post it would seem. I didn't want to just lurk around here and wanted some genuine advice, and be involved in some discussions So if I offended anyone or I seemed angry I am sorry. I didn't want it to come out defensive.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Rick


 


Hello Rick

Sorry about your injury and no I did not read your intro. I usually do not read any accept if they mention they are from NJ Want to find out who my competition is going to be I am sure you will be turning and spinning out pens in no time. Just follow all the doctors rules and try to keep active. 

As far as the site goes. There really are alot of helpful people here and they will go out of their way to help. It is good that you are gathering info and trying to comprehend what it takes to make a good quality pen. I am sure it has to be rewarding and also frustrating at the same time bcause you can not put into practice what you are learning. But you will get there.

In the mean time continue doing what you are doing and ask all the questions you want. With that said I again mention to you a great feature here and that is both the use of the Search box and also the use of the Google app. with those 2 things you can visit the 10000's of pages of info that has been talked about. Some of it as I mentioned gets asked many times in many different ways which at times does get abit frustrating and then what happens you have less people answering because they are tired of explaining the same things over and over. Hope you understand that part and it is nothing against you or any Newbie. When you have less people answering, things get left out or just one side of the problem is looked at. So it is always a good idea to read further. 

As I also mentioned, you will find when a method is talked about in doing something, there is probably another 10 ways of doing it and people express their methods. But the truth is until you try one or 2 methods you will not know what is best for you. So keep that in mind as you gather info too. 

Now lets get better and look forward to your first pens.


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## rickjake

jttheclockman said:


> rickjake said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi John,
> 
> I totally agree with you one hundred percent. I wish I could get the lathe and start turning. As I stated in my introductions, that you may or may not have read. I am three weeks post op from my second cervical spine fusion due to an injury eight or nine years ago. Unfortunately it has left my left side partially paralyzed. It may come back may not. The doctors says will know more in six to twelve months. I found a few videos on YouTube that lead me here. I am amazed at the talent and work that people have here! I know most times its about finding your own way, believe me I am forty-six and have to learn how to use a walker. Its darn hard! One foot wants to go where ever it wants to.
> In a nutshell I was a member of another forum totally unrelated to woodwork. The people that had been there a while would burn you on every post it would seem. I didn't want to just lurk around here and wanted some genuine advice, and be involved in some discussions So if I offended anyone or I seemed angry I am sorry. I didn't want it to come out defensive.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Rick
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hello Rick
> 
> Sorry about your injury and no I did not read your intro. I usually do not read any accept if they mention they are from NJ Want to find out who my competition is going to be I am sure you will be turning and spinning out pens in no time. Just follow all the doctors rules and try to keep active.
> 
> As far as the site goes. There really are alot of helpful people here and they will go out of their way to help. It is good that you are gathering info and trying to comprehend what it takes to make a good quality pen. I am sure it has to be rewarding and also frustrating at the same time bcause you can not put into practice what you are learning. But you will get there.
> 
> In the mean time continue doing what you are doing and ask all the questions you want. With that said I again mention to you a great feature here and that is both the use of the Search box and also the use of the Google app. with those 2 things you can visit the 10000's of pages of info that has been talked about. Some of it as I mentioned gets asked many times in many different ways which at times does get abit frustrating and then what happens you have less people answering because they are tired of explaining the same things over and over. Hope you understand that part and it is nothing against you or any Newbie. When you have less people answering, things get left out or just one side of the problem is looked at. So it is always a good idea to read further.
> 
> As I also mentioned, you will find when a method is talked about in doing something, there is probably another 10 ways of doing it and people express their methods. But the truth is until you try one or 2 methods you will not know what is best for you. So keep that in mind as you gather info too.
> 
> Now lets get better and look forward to your first pens.
Click to expand...

 
Thanks John


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## Wildman

Only method to my madness is K.I.S.S. when I don’t Murphy’s Law prevails no matter what am turning.  

The kit will turn dictates whether to turn between centers or use one of my mandrels.  I 
own three mandrels; one PSI, and one A & one B Berea mandrels.

I turn & finish between centers with or without factory bushings and never had a problem yet.  Yes, need to use digital calipers whether turning between centers or mandrel.  

Use my dead center for other turnings so not a big expense, bought mine from Grizzly before ever turned a pen.


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## fernhills

I use the PSI collet chuck. Slide my mandrel down to one tube length with the kit bushings, tighten up the brass nut a little and turn away, till i get close, and then use calipers to bring it home. Takes as much care to use a mandrel as it does to TBC.  When you learn how to do both, i see no difference.  Good luck,  Carl


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## plano_harry

Rick, I think John has covered it.  You will rarely find anyone getting bashed here.  My comment was not to criticize you, it was more a rhetorical comment that this question does get asked often and perhaps someone might take the time to compile the various opinions into a library article to provide a resource for new turners.  I can give you 3 or 4 more opinion questions that are asked regularly if you are interested.

Because of the great work of pen pioneers before us, we have a library that is probably the best collection of articles anywhere on all aspects of how to make a pen.  In addition, I find that by using the search function, I can get a lot of answers to virtually any question I have, and that is how I learned to make pens.  I hope it will help you as well.  Feel free to ask all the questions you want, but searches will usually get the answer quicker.  

Looking forward to seeing your pens, and welcome to IAP.  I am new too.

Harry


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## rickjake

plano_harry said:


> Rick, I think John has covered it. You will rarely find anyone getting bashed here. My comment was not to criticize you, it was more a rhetorical comment that this question does get asked often and perhaps someone might take the time to compile the various opinions into a library article to provide a resource for new turners. I can give you 3 or 4 more opinion questions that are asked regularly if you are interested.
> 
> Because of the great work of pen pioneers before us, we have a library that is probably the best collection of articles anywhere on all aspects of how to make a pen. In addition, I find that by using the search function, I can get a lot of answers to virtually any question I have, and that is how I learned to make pens. I hope it will help you as well. Feel free to ask all the questions you want, but searches will usually get the answer quicke
> 
> Looking forward to seeing your pens, and welcome to IAP. I am new too.
> 
> Harry


 
Hi Harry, Yea I admit I was overly sensitive right after reading your comment:crying:. After reading all the posts I think it will be on a kit to kit basis. Acrylic and some softer woods will most likely turn without worry of bending the mandrel, while antler, cocobolo would most be better suited for TBC. 
I don`t harbor any ill feelings towards anyone here :handshake: and appreciate your explanation better. Or I understand it better. I must say things have not been great in my life for the last five to six years. It seems easier to be defensive than think things through. That last forum, which I promised myself I will not name, was a joke. Everyone hated you if you didn`t have like three thousand post minimum! I thought " how does one get there without posting"? This other forum was just a bunch of grumpy people with their only agenda was to burn "newbs". I will say this forum has brought my spirits up and look forward to reading new post and looking at all my friends latest work. Also I consider everyone a friend here and usually post it before signing off a post. I hope no one minds? Funny and true story. On this other forum I called an elder person of the forum friend. It was WW3! Needless to say my last post and deleted my membership. I really do love it here!

Thanks Friend,

-Rick


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## ffloyd

JohnnyCNC has them listed on his website, but he's sold out.  Has anyone had word from him regarding a timeline for getting back to production?


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## Chris Bar

Well, I forgot that TBC required special 60 degree bushings, so I just used my store bought variety.  With enough pressure on the bushings, but not too much, turned like a dream and I can now forget about bushings not closely fitting the mandrel.  Using the calipers, turn to the exact diameter needed so that finish will bring it up to the fitting diameter.  

Without the mandrel, happy again.  I can take a partially turned barrel off and put on again without concern....not that that is a common occurrence, but has happened.  Not familiar with a mandrel saver, but wonder if it solves the OOR problem.


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## Deadhead

PSI sells the mandrel saver; it's basiclly a live center with a hole all the way though it which allows the mandrel to slide though the hole so won't bend. 

As far as OOR, not sure if it helps. When I watched Barry Gross's demo @ the WWS he said that if you screw up a kit, save it and turn the ferral (?) down that is pushed into the barrel so that it slides in/out of the barrel. It is a good way to check for OOR, it has worked for me. I do mostly cigars and new series, so I bought an extra cigar kit for $5 from EB and messed up a new series mechinism and bought a whole kit and did the same. On more expensive kits I think I'll wait to screw one up first.:biggrin:


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