# How fast can you pull a nice glossy CA finish?



## patmurris (Nov 25, 2011)

Hi all! I've only managed a decent CA finish for a few month and am looking into ways to make it faster.

Right now, my most reliable routine is to apply 10-12 coats of thin CA smoothed with BLO. I wipe excess BLO with a clean paper after each layer cured, sand 600 both lathe running and stoped, clean the CA dust and move on to the next coat. Once done i let it sit overnight, then use wet MM all the way to 12k and finally buff it with a flannel cloth and blue paste.

That works rather well, but it is a bit tedious... especially on dual barrel kits.

One bottleneck is sanding in between layers, so i tried applying several coats in a row before doing a bit of sanding, but in the end, the finish is not glass like - i can see very thing circular marks on the highlight in bright sunlight.

I tried medium CA but it produces a lot of grooves that are hard to sand off... I tried without BLO but the cure time is way longer and the surface not as smooth so more sanding again...

Any advice welcome! :wink:
Thanks


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## lorbay (Nov 25, 2011)

Ditch the blo and put it on with blue shop towels, give it a shot of accelerator and then again til you get 10 or 12 coats then sand very lightly with 400. Make sure there is no shiny then wet sand with MM to 12k. Takes me about 10 min.

Lin.


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## Dan26 (Nov 25, 2011)

I do it similar to Lin. Time went from over an hour to less than 20 minutes. Meduim CA on paper towel, wipe back and forth while turning the lathe by hand, then just a mist of accelerator. You may not have to use accelerator after every coat either. If you do this, buy accelerator in the aerosol can, not the pump spray. After you are satisfied with the depth, sand with 400 or 600 grit to remove bumps, then MM.


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## patmurris (Nov 25, 2011)

Any brand or name or specs for those blue shop towels? I'll have to find these over here (France)...


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## wouldentu2? (Nov 25, 2011)

blue or white shop towels whether in a box or on a roll work great. They are more substantial than  just paper towels that are used in the kitchen.


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## SDB777 (Nov 25, 2011)

I try to take as much time as necessary to do it right the first time.....cause I sure hate to have to start all over and sand the stuff off!


Guess it takes somewhere around 10-14 minutes, but I try to let it cure.






Scott (it's not a race) B


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## robutacion (Nov 25, 2011)

patmurris said:


> Hi all! I've only managed a decent CA finish for a few month and am looking into ways to make it faster.
> 
> Right now, my most reliable routine is to apply 10-12 coats of thin CA smoothed with BLO. I wipe excess BLO with a clean paper after each layer cured, sand 600 both lathe running and stoped, clean the CA dust and move on to the next coat. Once done i let it sit overnight, then use wet MM all the way to 12k and finally buff it with a flannel cloth and blue paste.
> 
> ...



Pat,

Your process is certainly tedious and I doubt that, it produces the very best deep finish and shine on the barrels so and because you are asking for quicker and more consistent top finishes, this is what I do...!

No BLO what so ever, pure thin and medium CA and accelerator, wood sanded up to 400 (dry) clean with accelerator or acetone, use compressed air to blow any dust in the wood.

Most blue paper towels are better than the kitchen white stuff and you may find then on industrial cleaning companies as they are used often in mechanic and other work-shops as hand cleaning towels.

Instead of putting the CA in the applicator (paper towel), turn the lathe speed to about 800 rpm and with the applicator under the barrel, run the CA bottle (with the long nose applicator, cut in a slight angle to match the angle of the application over the barrel and run both (the paper applicator and the CA) from the tail stock to the head stock, making a constant drip with the CA.  When you get to the head stock, run the paper towel applicator back to the tail stock, with a gentle touch on the applicator but as fast as you can.  

Don't go backs as forwards with the applicator, as it will get stuck to the barrel, do this movement (tail-stock-head-stock-tail stock) only once per coat.  Start with the thin CA and give it 2 or 3 coats depending of the wood, before you start the next application, give it a quite burst with the accelerator.  After a couple of coats with the thin CA is time to go for the medium CA and without touching any sandpaper, repeat the process 10 to 15 times.

The amount of ripples and their size will depend of how gentle/hard you used the paper applicator and how fast/slow you run the CA coats so, a little practice on some rounded wood, will correct and perfect the movements and times.

Now remember that, you need to cover the wood with enough CA to be able to get that deep and glossy finish, the biggest mistake people do when applying CA is that they want to see a smooth finish all the way through so they use the sandpaper in between coats or every couple of coats not realizing that they are simply coating with CA and removing what they did, making that a never ending process.

Now in regards to the "ridges" that you will get, regardless, they are nothing to worry about, in fact they are an indication that there is plenty of CA over the wood so, how do you remove them...???

Again this is where many people go wrong and endup cutting through all the CA coats into the wood, creating those "dull" spots that are most irritating/frustrating after you though that you were done with it...! Well, the secret is a combination of 2 things, the first one is to finish your session of coats with the last 2 coats with the same thin CA you started with, as and while the CA is going over the wood at fast rate, the CA is not totally cured even though you may have used the accelerator so, finishing with the thin CA is like using the CA thin viscosity to repair/flatten/fill the valley's and smooth the high spots.

You still have ridges but a lot less pronounced and easy to smooth out and again, this is where people take more than what they should off the CA on the barrel(s) by trying to sand those ridges with the lathe turned on.  You simple get a container with clean water and a combination of wet & dry good sandpaper grits 600, 800, 100, 1200, 1500, 2000 and 2500 (more if you wish), starting with the 600 but with the LATHE SWITCHED OFF, wet well the paper/pad) and sand the barrel longways only.  Don't use too much pressure and the 600 grit will remove more than what you thing.  Manually rotate the spindle while you rub the blanks surface all around.  Use the water to you advantage and pours a little over the blank to make sure you are not going too far.  You don't need to remove all the marks at this stage as you still have all the other grits to go through, otherwise by the time you finish, you removed all the CA on gad on it.

OK, now that you removed 90% of the ridges, switch the lathe back on again and start working the other grits, this time you do it with the sandpaper over the barrel as it rotates, normally a 3 quicks and gentle passes is sufficient, changing the grits as you got.  Again, make sure the paper/pad is well wetted...!

When the wet sanding is over, use a dry and clean cloth/paper towel to gently clean any water over the barrel(s), compressed air is a good option together with the paper towel.  You are now ready for the last stage which is the polishing compound that will finish the barrel(s) surface.

And no, my system is not BETTER than everyone else's, (you knew that this was coming, huh...???:wink but, I can say that, there are a couple of "steps" in my process that have resolved the problems that I was having with the CA system, when I started and still, I'm yet to see anyone (correct me if I'm wrong...!) that have made the suggestion to use the thin CA to smooth the ridges out, instead of sanding...!:wink::biggrin:

My suggestion is, practice on a piece of rounded wood of diameter and length identical to the pen barrels you turn (for timing and speed), this will take the pressure/stress out of trying something new on a quality blank already tubed and shaped/sized.  You stuffed up...??? who cares, sand it down and start again, pure and simple...!

Now, if any of what I said feels confusing to you, no problem, simple ask the questions, and I shall give you the answers...!:biggrin:

Good luck,

Cheers
George


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## Parson (Nov 25, 2011)

Adding to what George wrote above, you can also smooth out CA glue with a pen component baggie on your finger. CA glue doesn't stick to the little baggies and I use them all the time.

Accelerator: Buy a refillable aerosol can designed for accelerator-type solvents and it will save you piles of money. Those aerosol cans of the stuff are overpriced if you ask me.


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## Joe Burns (Nov 25, 2011)

I apply 10 - 12 coats of medium CA with a blue shop towel.  Apply very lightly accelerator between coats.  No sanding between coats.  wet sand with Micro Mesh.  Takes about 30 - 45 minutes.

Joe


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## rherrell (Nov 26, 2011)

I use two coats of medium CA and it takes about 5 min. to apply it, HOWEVER.... I wait 24 hrs. before final sanding and buffing so I guess my answer is 24 hrs. 5 min..:biggrin:


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## lorbay (Nov 26, 2011)

patmurris said:


> Any brand or name or specs for those blue shop towels? I'll have to find these over here (France)...



The guy that tort me said it doesn't matter what towels you use as long as when you put CA on them they don't smoke.
Get a few different brands and try it, you will be surprised how many will smoke almost immediately. It just means that they have an accelerant in the them.

Lin.


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## leehljp (Nov 26, 2011)

IF you have a good thick coating and have ridges that stick up, it is easy to take a good sharp round nose scraper and with a light touch smooth them out instead of sanding them down. To me, it is quicker than sanding. Only takes about 3 to 4 seconds to smooth the CA'ed blank enough to start the MM process. The key is having a good thick layer before doing this though.


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## patmurris (Nov 26, 2011)

Thank you all for taking the time to share your tricks. 

I see many of you use accelerator which i've never used, however i've read a few times it can sort of crystallize and ruin the finish. What about it?


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## bensoelberg (Nov 26, 2011)

patmurris said:


> Thank you all for taking the time to share your tricks.
> 
> I see many of you use accelerator which i've never used, however i've read a few times it can sort of crystallize and ruin the finish. What about it?



If you put on too much that is true, but I've never had a problem with that.  I spray my accelerator from about 12 inches away and aim above the blank.  That way, the spray lightly mists the blank.


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## robutacion (Nov 26, 2011)

patmurris said:


> Thank you all for taking the time to share your tricks.
> 
> I see many of you use accelerator which i've never used, however i've read a few times it can sort of crystallize and ruin the finish. What about it?



It can happen but I have found that, if I spray the blank last before I'm ready for the next coat, the accelerator doesn't affect the finish as spraying immediately after the CA was applied.  There are only a few seconds between these 2 application methods but, that is more than enough to give you very different results...!

PS: Monty's accelerator with his atomizers work really well...!

Chers
George


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## robutacion (Nov 26, 2011)

leehljp said:


> IF you have a good thick coating and have ridges that stick up, it is easy to take a good sharp round nose scraper and with a light touch smooth them out instead of sanding them down. To me, it is quicker than sanding. Only takes about 3 to 4 seconds to smooth the CA'ed blank enough to start the MM process. The key is having a good thick layer before doing this though.



Yes, I totally agree with you, but ain't a lot of guys that feel confident to get a sharp cutting tool over the CA coating as a small "flint" and is all over...!

The skew would be the most appropriate (but not the only one) tool to remove those CA ridges, maintaining the roundness of the barrel which can easily be altered with not careful hand sanding...!:frown:

I suppose, having options is a lot better than not having a clue...!:wink::biggrin:

Cheers
George


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## G1Pens (Nov 26, 2011)

For me, its not about how fast I can do it, but how well I can do it. I would much rather take longer and get the finish that I want. The one thing I have found with CA is that you have to find what works for you.


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## butchf18a (Nov 27, 2011)

:usflag:Blue towels - Scott Shop Towels. I cheat and buy them by the case, however, they can be readily found at most hardware stores and the big box stores like Home Depot and Lowes. A two-pack is only a few bucks.

Ditto on all the advice previously mentioned. I am squarely in the absolutely NO BLO camp. There are those that do use it, use it with success and swear by it. I'm not one of them.

There are many methodolgys, almost all will give you good to excellent results. Read all you can, don't accept any one method as gospel, try several, find one that works for you and perfect it. Regardless of the method(s) you try, I suggest you give any you try more than one effort. Just because it wasn't satisfactory the first time does not invalidate it, it may have been how you executed it.

condensed version of my method - sand to 600 grit, clean blank, thin CA 10 coats using blue towel, accelerator lightly between coats. Light sand 320 and 600 grit to get rid of high spots. MM dry. Clean blank, 10 more coats. MM wet all grits, polish (most anything works), buff and wax. Assemble, get paid. 15-20 minutes tops. Of course first few times took longer. Key is know what process you want to utilize, have all your materials close at hand before you start.

Practice, practice, practice. don't practice until you get it right, practice until you can't get it wrong.

jmoicbw-bidi

Butch


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## Bellsy (Nov 27, 2011)

This is the method I use.

I turn the blanks down @ 0.010" undersized of the hardware diameter. Sand the blank with 400 grit and wipe it off with paper towel. I then place a folded piece of wax paper on my index finger (same width as finger) and apply a small amount of CA to the wax paper. Starting at either end I draw the CA along the length of the blank while the lathe is at 500 RPM. Rub the CA into the blank with a back and forth motion until you feel the CA beginning to set up. Give the CA time to cure or add a few small mists of accelerator. Keep applying CA in small even quantities/layers until the the overall diameter of the blank is @ 0.010" oversize. Using a skew (negative rake scraper) and very sharp, take light even passes off of the blank. If your doing this properly the amount of removal takes about 2 passes to remove 0.001" of CA. Measure the blank at the ends only after every few passes. If you applied the CA properly, the entire blank will have an even coating of CA, so there is no worries about going through the CA finish. Turn the blank down until your within 0.001"  of the final diameter of the pens hardware....NOT the bushing size. Bushings are only a guideline as hardware does differ from bushing sizes.

If there are shiny or glossy spots on the blank, apply more CA and repeat the finishing process with the skew again. The skew needs to sharpened on a fine stone (120 grit) and then use a hone to tweak the cutting edge on the underside of the tool.

Start sanding at 400 grit and lightly sand up through 12000 MM (wet) and polish. Once the blank is removed from the bushings, the ends of the blank are squared and then buffed lightly to remove the sharp corner. The undersizing of the blank and the CA used to fill this allow the sharp edge to be slightly buffed making a tiny radius removing the sharp edge.

Time is not a factor........doing it right the first time is.

Dave


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## robutacion (Nov 27, 2011)

Sure, how fast you get a good CA finish, is not the most important thing, even tough, spending hours with the same pen is to be voided, as the longer you spend with it the worse it will get, particularly due to repeated sanding to raw wood condition...!

For me, being able to confidently and consistently being able to CA a pen to top finish surface (up to 15 coats, approx), regardless of wood (exceptions do apply, obviously...) within the 30 minute time bracket, is most reasonable and acceptable.

The more you do the faster you will become but it will become a point where reducing further the amount of time that the finish should take with experience, you will compromise the results, guaranteed.  Is only so fast the human hands can go and the absolute minimum drying times in between coats, will not change regardless of how far you want to go so, you will find the exact way to achieve the results you want within acceptable time and that is what you should stick with onwards...!:wink:

Cheers
George


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## chris63 (Nov 28, 2011)

do you have to have delrin bushing having troubles with chipping when taking bushings off


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## Bellsy (Nov 28, 2011)

chris63 said:


> do you have to have delrin bushing having troubles with chipping when taking bushings off



If your having troubles with CA sticking to the bushings I would question the finished diameter of the bank in relation to the hardware diameter of the pen. In theory the finished blank should be the same diameter as the bushing. If there is CA between the bushing and the end of the blanks, then I would question the squareness of the blanks to the bushings prior to turning.  If my bushings are stuck to the blank I gently tap the bushing on it's end on the bed way. The small residual amount of CA will release easily without chipping.

Dave


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## robutacion (Nov 28, 2011)

It is quite common to get CA over the bushings and totally destroy the finish by chipping the barrel ends, on removal.  There are 2 reasons why the bushings will stick, 1 in that the glue can get in between the wood and the bushing making it to stick, then you have the layers of CA over the pen's barrel and the bushings from the CA coating.  

When you get the 2 together, the job to separate them without damage is nearly impossible, reason why most people, including myself, use a very small amount of Vaseline/candle wax/soap etc... so cot the barrels ends before the bushings are inserted, making sure that there is no residue of whatever you used to coat the barrels ends,  (acetone or accelerator will clean it up...!)

If you have a few layers of CA over the barrel/bush joint, there is a great risk of damaging the edges of the finish if you just knock it out, without "braking" "scoring" the CA at the joint point, for this, the use of a Stanley knife, or similar, to make a cut on the glue/joint, is most effective.

The problem is, how you do it, and how steady you are with your hands to firmly and accurately cut the CA on the joint and not over the finished barrel, and that is pretty damn easy to do, believe me, I know...!

You can do it with the lathe off and slowly run the knife over the joint, slightly to the bushing side and not to the barrels end (just is case...!:redface or you can use the knife against the tool rest as a guide and with the lathe ON, you gently "drop" the knife sharp edge at the separation point.

You don't need to go totally trough the CA, 99.9% of times, with a scored mark half way on the CA or so is enough to brake the joint without damaging the barrels finished edge.  The next step is to square/flatten the barrels edge to remove ant CA residue and give the joint a perfect finish for the fitting.  There are a few methods to do this step and they have been already well documented in this forum...!:biggrin:

Good luck...!

Cheers
George


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## U-Turn (Nov 28, 2011)

I do the same as Lin - mine is 4 coats of thin and 4 coats of medium with no sanding in between, Sand with 400 to get all glossy off and then sand to 12,000. No BLO.


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## Chasper (Nov 28, 2011)

My method is much different thanany I have just read about in this thread.
1.  Lathe speed around 3000 
2. Spray with accelerator before starting to apply CA.  Give it 20-30 seconds to evaporate with the lathe spinning.
3.  First coat thin CA with no BLO.  Paper towel on back of blank, drizzle CA directly on the blank.  Make one pass while drizzling and 20-30 rubs very quickly with medium pressure.
4. Second through 8th or 10th coat of thin, put exactly 1/2 drop of BLO on paper towel and rub it across blank, without removing the paper towel from blank drizzle CA directly on the blank and give it 20-30 medium pressure rub passes, repeat, repeat. . .
5.  No sanding, no accelerator other than before starting.  Immediately after finishing or at least within an hour of finishing, buff with White Diamond.
Total time for finishing and buffing 5-7 minutes.  Ready to assemble immediately after buffing.


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## oneula (Dec 5, 2011)

I've never had any success with anything other than thin CA (I always get lumps and sticking with Medium) but now for production purposes I uses half a dozen quick coats of thin CA with accelerator to seal and provide a base coat and then the same with the new water based wood turner's finish from General (woodcraft) A quick sand with those three micro mesh pads for plastic and then micro mesh soft pads up to 12,000.
Then a quick buff with surfboard sureluster polish, plastic polish, carnuba wax and renaissance. I do the same for acrylics as with wood to seal any left over acrylic sanding finish issues.
I think the fumes, heat, sticking, getting glue where you don't want and paper towel waste make CA finishes as humbug as anything.

Seems like you should be able to do a spray on 2part clear coat finish in a spray booth like you can do with with automobiles on pen bodies. I guess if you have a good friend in the autopainting business you get them to do a quick spray on a bunch of racked bodies. I know folks in the surfboard business that take their boards down to autobody shops to do the same to give that wet as water gloss look to their surfboards.


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## toyotaman (Dec 6, 2011)

I've never had problems with a CA finish. It takes about 5-7 minutes to go from wood to a high gloss sanded finish. I only use thin CA and I can put on 5-8 coats in about 3 minutes. I then wait about a minute and wet sand it from 1500 to 12000. Apply a coat of huts plastic polish and your done. It's all complete and ready to assemble in less than 10 minutes.


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## leehljp (Dec 7, 2011)

Bellsy said:


> chris63 said:
> 
> 
> > do you have to have delrin bushing having troubles with chipping when taking bushings off
> ...



"In Theory" the bushings should be the same as the nib, CB and cap end, but it doesn't hold true. :frown: Sanding and occasional touches of the chisel reduce the size of the bushings, which negate the "same diameter" concept.

Unless one is using TBC, bushings should be considered as consumables since the diameter of the bushing will be slowly but steadily reduced in size due to touches with the chisel and sandpaper. Use calipers to determine the size instead of bushings. AND also, TBC eliminates the CA/bushing sticking.


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## patmurris (Dec 7, 2011)

I see many do build up several or even all CA layers without sanding in between which is fast indeed, but whenever i've tried that i wasn't satified with the final result. The gloss is there, the surface is smooth and glass like, but the highlight is not razor sharp especially in direct sunlight. You can see all the tiny application marks 'inside' and they make the highlight a bit fuzzy on the edge.

I guess either i'm not doing it right, or we do not have the same perception of what an acceptable glossy finish is?


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## leehljp (Dec 7, 2011)

patmurris said:


> The gloss is there, the surface is smooth and glass like, but the highlight is not razor sharp especially in direct sunlight. You can see all the tiny application marks 'inside' and they make the highlight a bit fuzzy on the edge.
> 
> I guess either i'm not doing it right, or we do not have the same perception of what an acceptable glossy finish is?



If you are doing it right, you should not be able to see any marks in it. Get a pieces of ebony and try it. Do the same with some very white holly. Holly will show up dark spots quick and the ebony will show up light sanding dust that wasn't cleaned up. 

Acceptable glossy finishes show nothing but the wood like it is under clear glass. Don't accept less. 

You are right about "perceptions" though. In English, and all languages for that matter, the weight and value of a word, words or descriptions - vary from one person to another. What is a "light touch" to one person - that same  amount of pressure is heavy to another. 

Now to acceptable glossy finishes - some people settle for "good enough" while others look down on it. IN another direction on this subject, I know that I have read a couple of times over the years on this forum where someone would complain about lines and scratches in their pen. Turns out that in both cases they were using paddock. In paddock, the cells are so large that a good  eye can see these cells. But the first time seen under a perfect finish - the pen turner thought that he was seeing some kind of dirt and scratch lines.


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