# NielsNiche.Com



## TonyL (Apr 7, 2019)

I saw these tools in action at the SEPG. In fact, they inspired me to get into custom/kitless pen turning. Any one have experience *with these*? I have seen several Youtube's and it seems to be the tool of choice for many kitless turners now. For $170 or so, it seems pretty good (I've seen in person and the quality looked very good). Thoughts?

https://www.neilsniche.com/lathe-tailstock-tap-die-holder.html

Thank you.


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## EdM (Apr 7, 2019)

Tony, great idea!
Do any of the mini/mid lathes available rotate as slowly as necessary to safely and accurately tap with this tool ?


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## TonyL (Apr 7, 2019)

I have several jets and rikons - all of my do. Unfortunately, I can't speak for other lathes.


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## Dalecamino (Apr 7, 2019)

This is what I have from Little Machine shop. 

https://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=2314&category=


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## its_virgil (Apr 7, 2019)

Yes, if the rotating is done by hand. Don't think threading under power is a good idea, at least for making fountain pens. 
Do a good turn daily!
Don



EdM said:


> Tony, great idea!
> Do any of the mini/mid lathes available rotate as slowly as necessary to safely and accurately tap with this tool ?


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## Dieseldoc (Apr 7, 2019)

Dalecamino said:


> This is what I have from Little Machine shop.
> 
> https://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=2314&category=



Tony:

This is the same one I use, great tool and great price,


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## duncsuss (Apr 7, 2019)

Former IAP member George Butcher (texatdurango) made some that serve the same purpose a few years back -- I got two of them, double ended so I can have 4 dies mounted and ready to go at all times.

His are made from acetal (Delrin), they slide on a 1/4" steel rod that I hold in a drill chuck in my tailstock. Not rocket science, and I've made one myself (not as fancy as George's, but it holds the die.)

 I never cut threads with the lathe powered -- I lock the headstock and turn the die or tap by hand while the workpiece is held in a collet chuck.


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## TonyL (Apr 7, 2019)

Thank you all! Is there any reason why I don't see many kitless pens with a postable body/cap?


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## hokie (Apr 7, 2019)

TonyL said:


> Thank you all! Is there any reason why I don't see many kitless pens with a postable body/cap?



As a kitless turner, I have a few thoughts on the lack of postable caps...
First, I personally don't care much for the profile that needs to be turned into the butt end of the body to accommodate the cap. I also don't like the idea of incorporating threads into the end of the body either for aesthetic reasons as well if a more secure posting is desired.
Second, I've read some folks believe cramming the cap on the back end of the body over time could do damage to the cap threads, the finish on the body, or both.
Those are just what came to mind, but I'm sure there are other opinions on the matter.


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## bmachin (Apr 7, 2019)

TonyL said:


> Thank you all! Is there any reason why I don't see many kitless pens with a postable body/cap?



Tony,

My best guess is that it's just more work. If you make the pen non-postable, you can make the barrel any shape you want. I you want the cap to post you need to either:

1. Make a reduced diameter portion at the end of the barrel like Pelikan and most kit pens. If you do this though, in order for the pen to look balanced while posted, the threads inside the cap need to be buried fairly deep in the cap.

2. Put a long taper on the barrel so that the cap just slides down to a point where it looks good. This is just kind of a cut-and-try method until you get what you want.

I've made all my pens but one by the second method. I know that there are those who prefer non-postable pens, but back in the day before ballpoints took over and everybody carried a fountain pen, those EDC fountain pens were all postable.

Just a traditionalist, I guess.

Cheers,
Bill

EDIT: Apologies to Hokie and others. Cogent reasons. Did not mean to imply laziness. Mea culpa.


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## RangeRat (Apr 7, 2019)

I use the Little Machine Shop die holder, as well. Seems to work well and definitely much cheaper. Mind you, I’ve only used it a few times while I’m still practicing my kitless, but I haven’t had any issues with it. It doesn’t hold a tap, bit I use my Jacobs chuck for that.


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## Dalecamino (Apr 7, 2019)

RangeRat said:


> I use the Little Machine Shop die holder, as well. Seems to work well and definitely much cheaper. Mind you, I’ve only used it a few times while I’m still practicing my kitless, but I haven’t had any issues with it. It doesn’t hold a tap, bit I use my Jacobs chuck for that.



LMS has a tap guide I recommend also.

https://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=1963&category=


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## duncsuss (Apr 7, 2019)

TonyL said:


> Thank you all! Is there any reason why I don't see many kitless pens with a postable body/cap?



I've had customers specifically ask that the cap not post because they don't want to risk scratching the barrel, and I've had others request that they do post because they don't want the pen to roll away if they put it down (and the clip acts as a roll stop).

I've made a couple for my personal use where I threaded the butt end of the barrel to take the cap; I could never make these look as elegant as the ones on my Montegrappa Symphony (which are Sterling silver) so I gave up that method.

It is a little more effort, and forces a particular shape of barrel, but if that's what the customer wants ... :biggrin:


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## keithbyrd (Apr 7, 2019)

I somehow ended up with both tool sets!   Need to learn to check my tool box before I order-  both are well made and easy to use.


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## EdM (Apr 7, 2019)

Tony's link points to the tool's page where a video demonstrating tapping under power was shown, which is why I asked. I'm sure it's not as easy as it appears in the video !


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## Dalecamino (Apr 7, 2019)

EdM said:


> Tony's link points to the tool's page where a video demonstrating tapping under power was shown, which is why I asked. I'm sure it's not as easy as it appears in the video !



Tapping by hand allows you to advance the die then back up to clear the chips. Then repeat.


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## TonyL (Apr 7, 2019)

Thank you all very much. I bought a pen turners combo from https://www.neilsniche.com/lathe-tai...ie-holder.html, it was less $ than the advertised cost because we don't need all of the items. Neil is a very nice guy.


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## magpens (Apr 7, 2019)

This looks like a nice, complete set for threading kitless pens ... everything you need. . Go for it ! . I think that I will also.


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## TonyL (Apr 7, 2019)

I went for it now I am going to buy the taps and dies. I will take the advice of many and buy the less expensive single start. If I like this kitless stuff, I will buy the triple start. Thank you all very much.


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## lphoto (Apr 8, 2019)

TonyL said:


> I saw these tools in action at the SEPG. In fact, they inspired me to get into custom/kitless pen turning. Any one have experience *with these*? I have seen several Youtube's and it seems to be the tool of choice for many kitless turners now. For $170 or so, it seems pretty good (I've seen in person and the quality looked very good). Thoughts?
> 
> https://www.neilsniche.com/lathe-tailstock-tap-die-holder.html
> 
> Thank you.



I ordered these after SEPG. I’m sure there are other options but I chose to get the one from Niel because of the reputation of the tool. If you are going to order, you need to do it soon because he is retiring.


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## lphoto (Apr 8, 2019)

RangeRat said:


> I use the Little Machine Shop die holder, as well. Seems to work well and definitely much cheaper. Mind you, I’ve only used it a few times while I’m still practicing my kitless, but I haven’t had any issues with it. It doesn’t hold a tap, bit I use my Jacobs chuck for that.



And this is one of the differences in the tools. Anytime I can save time by not having to swap things around I feel like I’m ahead.


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## Penultimate (Apr 9, 2019)

Tony,
I recommend that you get the tap guide also. It has an MT2 taper for the tail stock and is spring loaded to hold the tap inline.


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## TonyL (Apr 9, 2019)

Thank you. I did.


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## JAZNCARR (Apr 9, 2019)

For a pen to be postable. The pen has to be balanced in the hand with and with out the cap. Alot goes into the weight of a kit pen with the clip and the hardware. Most pens feel better in your hand without the cap.


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## TonyL (Apr 10, 2019)

I hold the cap in my non-writing hand.


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## MiteyF (Apr 10, 2019)

Am I the only one confused at why you'd need a tap/die in a tailstock on a metal lathe? Just about every metal lathe I've ever used will cut threads using the auto feed and a sharp eye.... what am I missing?


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## its_virgil (Apr 10, 2019)

I think what you are missing is many of us make these custom pens on our wood lathe and not a metal lathe. So, using a tap and die for threads is necessary and these tap and die tool  holders discussed are top quality and necessary.
Do a good turn daily!
Don



MiteyF said:


> Am I the only one confused at why you'd need a tap/die in a tailstock on a metal lathe? Just about every metal lathe I've ever used will cut threads using the auto feed and a sharp eye.... what am I missing?


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## magpens (Apr 10, 2019)

What you say is true. . I hope I am not missing something, but ...

 There is very considerable time involved in setting up a metal lathe to cut threads to a pen-makers required spec., particularly where the desired thread has multiple starts. . On some rather expensive lathes the process may be somewhat simplified, but for the lathes that most of us can afford/justify for pen turning, it involves calculating several gear ratios and installing gears into the drive train of the horizontal feed. . Usually, I believe, it is also true that the use of taps/dies results in better quality threads, especially for those of us who are not professionally trained and experienced machinists.

This is quite apart from the fact that pen turners tend to have wood turning lathes and cannot justify the additional expense of a metal lathe.


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## More4dan (Apr 11, 2019)

I have used a metal lathe for years and have used it to cut many threads.  I’ve switched to taps and dies for pen making.  The set up time for threading on the lathe is typically longer than threading with taps and dies.  Small ID threads are also a real issue for turning on the lathe. 

Using the before mentioned tap and die guides keep everything inline with the axis of the pen.  I end up with similar precision to lathe cut threads. The chance of error on an expensive blank are also reduced.  I also believe the stresses on thin parts are less than when single point turning the threads on the lathe. 


Sent from my iPad using Penturners.org mobile app


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## Dalecamino (Apr 11, 2019)

MiteyF said:


> Am I the only one confused at why you'd need a tap/die in a tailstock on a metal lathe? Just about every metal lathe I've ever used will cut threads using the auto feed and a sharp eye.... what am I missing?



Just curious...can you cut matching internal threads on a cap and barrel on a metal lathe? I haven't seen that done. The internal threads on the lower barrel for the section would be small like 9M x .75 then the section housing 6.4M x .75
I just prefer the taps and dies for this. But it just made me wonder if the internal threads can be turn on the metal lathe.


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## More4dan (Apr 11, 2019)

You can cut internal thread to match the external threads but tools size dictates what will fit. You could do the cap and possibly the front section. But not likely the feed.  I disliked cutting ID threads so much that I would just make my own tap once I set up the lathe to turn my OD thread.  I would also use the same pitch for my cap and body threads. 


Sent from my iPad using Penturners.org mobile app


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## Dalecamino (Apr 11, 2019)

More4dan said:


> You can cut internal thread to match the external threads but tools size dictates what will fit. You could do the cap and possibly the front section. But not likely the feed.  I disliked cutting ID threads so much that I would just make my own tap once I set up the lathe to turn my OD thread.  I would also use the same pitch for my cap and body threads.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Penturners.org mobile app



Thanks Dan. So you still need tools. This answered my question.


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## magpens (Apr 11, 2019)

Chuck,

The internal threads are cut with a single point tool called a "boring bar" which has its cutting point shaped to the desired thread shape (quite often a 60 degree point). . The cutting point is on the side of the boring bar and at its "far end", which is inserted into a pre-drilled hole of a size calculated to go with the thread size. . It is usual to make several passes to get the thread diameter to the desired value. . With successive passes, the cutting point is advanced to slightly greater radius from the turning axis.

 As Dan said, it becomes a problem for small sizes. . To get good thread accuracy, the boring bar needs to have good rigidity and that dictates a minimum size.

An additional problem when you are cutting internal threads this way on a lathe is that it is difficult to see what you are doing. . Of course, that is no problem with external threading on the lathe.


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## Dalecamino (Apr 11, 2019)

Thanks for the info Mal. As I said, I've never seen threads cut this way. Although I will stick with the taps and dies. Much simpler for a simple man like me. :biggrin:


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## MiteyF (Apr 11, 2019)

Dalecamino said:


> MiteyF said:
> 
> 
> > Am I the only one confused at why you'd need a tap/die in a tailstock on a metal lathe? Just about every metal lathe I've ever used will cut threads using the auto feed and a sharp eye.... what am I missing?
> ...



Yes, you can. Whether or not it's the "easiest" or "best" way is (like everything) debatable, but you can certainly tap internal threads.


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