# Getting GOOD advice



## mickr (Dec 18, 2009)

I have been enjoying this website for quite a spell..and I think maybe new folks could use a tad of help to understand that the answers they get many times are opinions and not necessarily fact. There are people who appear to give answers & opinions and it is clear they don't know beans...then there are folks who have great knowledge and share it freely.. The question then for newbies is : WHO to trust?  I pondered this for quite awhile and maybe this will help...Go to the person's gallery pictures..if their pens are worse than yours, you might not consider their info valuable..If they are telling you how to turn a bowl and have no nice bowls posted, you might blow by their advice..Pictures will tell you the skill and abilities of the person who is advising you...:biggrin:THIS IS MY OPINION:biggrin: and I hope it helps those who are feeling their way in a new hobby


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## GaryMadore (Dec 18, 2009)

.. so I guess I won't take any advice from you about dogs 

hee hee

Cheers!

Gary


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## rjwolfe3 (Dec 18, 2009)

So for those of us who don't post any pictures, you are saying we have no skills?


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## altaciii (Dec 18, 2009)

GaryMadore said:


> .. so I guess I won't take any advice from you about dogs
> 
> Ouch!  Now that was below the belt.  Funny, but low.
> 
> There are many different ways to do things.  What works for me may not work for someone else.  How does one learn unless he trys everything until they feel comfortable with what they are trying to accomplish.


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## stolicky (Dec 18, 2009)

This was too funny to wake up to.  (see dog in avatar)

What if people just don't have any photography skills?

In all seriousness, I agree that people looking for advice and ideas on how to do things should do adequate research.  When I am trying to figure out how to do something, I always try to research it as much as possible.  If I find that there is a general consensus on how to do it, then I make my decision based on that.

I do think that you might be on to something about people that are willing share their opinions (i.e. advice) but do not share many examples of their work.  I guess its something to think about, huh?  I guess I better check out my photos... : /


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## DennisM (Dec 18, 2009)

rjwolfe3 said:


> So for those of us who don't post any pictures, you are saying we have no skills?


 
LOL

Ya guess that is what it means, so you should just take all of yours and send them this way, I mean cause by that definiton all must be bad and I will gladdly use them for "parts" LOL


Good post over all but looking for just pics to judge ability is very limiting. Not everyone Posts in a gallery. 

Also just because I might not have a great looking pen does not mean I do not know the proper way to do something. My ability might not be that to pull it off but I just may know exactly how to do it.


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## Monty (Dec 18, 2009)

rjwolfe3 said:


> So for those of us who don't post any pictures, you are saying we have no skills?


I agree. I do lotsa pens and lotsa sales, but have very little time left to take picts and post them.


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## wood-of-1kind (Dec 18, 2009)

Do not judge a book by its cover. OR  Do not judge a 'turner' by his pictures, especially if they choose not to 'show' in pix.


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## jleiwig (Dec 18, 2009)

I don't think that anything relevant to post count or number/quantity/quality of photos has anything to do with knowledge or experience. 

We have some members who are quite successful/famous etc in the pen turning community who are too busy to either post much or take pictures, but when we can coax them out of hiding it a great boon to the many members here.  

Also, your definition of quality posting material might be different from everyone elses, or the person posting may just not have a way with words. 

All in all the best bet is always to research your options, read as much as you can, and ultimately try as many different ways to do things as you can since there are many ways to skin a cat so to speak.  

This is what I did when learning my CA finish. I watched videos, read the forums and followed tutorials to a T, and then used a hybrid method of all of them combined to perfect what works for me.


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## wolftat (Dec 18, 2009)

How many times has it been written "no picture, never happened". I personally find the best thing to do is find several methods and see what works best for me.


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## KenBrasier (Dec 18, 2009)

OK, OK, I'll keep my opinions to myself until I get a chance to post Pic's.  

But frankly *mickr's* post is right on the money [well, maybe except for that picture thing].  I love this sight and have learned a great deal in the very short time since I joined.  Also I am trying a lot of different procedures, but I doubt I do any of them the way they were described here.  I pick and choose what will work for my style and adjust as needed, that the beauty of the knowledge inbedded in this site........


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## mickr (Dec 18, 2009)

rjwolfe3 said:


> So for those of us who don't post any pictures, you are saying we have no skills?


  Now you know that wasn't what I said..I was really trying to help newbies to feel their way..If you don't post, you don't..that's OK ..it's personal choice..it was just a method to use on the site to give newbies a sense of what is going on...you all have a right to disagree, and I sense you all took it personally..it was not meant for people who know thier way around a pen mandrel..it was for folks who are lost and wanting a way to judge the advice they are being given..


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## mick (Dec 18, 2009)

To quote a rather famous....or would it be infamous? song...."Don't ask me no questions....I'll tell you no lies"


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## Daniel (Dec 18, 2009)

I actually have to agree with Mickr on this one. Given that a person has no other information about a persons skill and it's relationship to their advice. Photos are at least one form of evidence to help wade through the information they will receive. This is not at all saying that only good turners post pictures. in fact it is probably true that most of the best don't. But until a new member can gather that sort of information photos are a good fall back. basically the photo gallery is one more tool to help steer folks around. and agin it is quite common to hear "No photo, didn't happen"
I also realize that the written word is often a poor way to teach. I have taught several people to turn hands on in my shop. I show them how to do something as well as give them some examples of how they can change the effect they are getting. will hand them the tool and even by all apperances they do exactly what I did and get different results. it has to do with very small details, how they are gripping the tool. how and in what direction they apply pressure, small differences in the angle they hold it at or other things like that. really hard to explain in writing and impossible to see on the internet. I always like to see tha advice to chuck up a piece of scrap wood between centers and practice before even trying a pen. that is how I went about it when I had no advice of any kind to go by.


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## DennisM (Dec 18, 2009)

Best advice to a newbie is to READ, WATCH and TRY.

The Liberary is the best single source of information and Videos to help anyone..


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## David M (Dec 18, 2009)

i agree also , but not 100 % . that would be a good to start but there is nothing like hands on experience .  someone can tell you to get a good ,  smooth cut to use a skew and practice . with out knowing to use the edge like a knife some will hold it flat and use it like a scraper . i do agree that someone with expertise can teach / show better than someone that hasn't


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## mickr (Dec 18, 2009)

Daniel said:


> I actually have to agree with Mickr on this one. Given that a person has no other information about a persons skill and it's relationship to their advice. Photos are at least one form of evidence to help wade through the information they will receive. This is not at all saying that only good turners post pictures. in fact it is probably true that most of the best don't. But until a new member can gather that sort of information photos are a good fall back. basically the photo gallery is one more tool to help steer folks around. and agin it is quite common to hear "No photo, didn't happen"
> I also realize that the written word is often a poor way to teach. I have taught several people to turn hands on in my shop. I show them how to do something as well as give them some examples of how they can change the effect they are getting. will hand them the tool and even by all apperances they do exactly what I did and get different results. it has to do with very small details, how they are gripping the tool. how and in what direction they apply pressure, small differences in the angle they hold it at or other things like that. really hard to explain in writing and impossible to see on the internet. I always like to see tha advice to chuck up a piece of scrap wood between centers and practice before even trying a pen. that is how I went about it when I had no advice of any kind to go by.


  Thank you Daniel..of course a great tutor is the absolute best, and this site could be called a "tutor" ..with all the tutorials and help folks givwe one another..a great site...but as with many internet forums, the info can be just fantastic & helpful or horrible and downright dangerous...my intent on the post was to help newbies have a quick and dirty way to help them..it was not intended as THE ONLY WAY..just one of many that could help


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## TellicoTurning (Dec 18, 2009)

DennisM said:


> Best advice to a newbie is to READ, WATCH and TRY.
> 
> The Liberary is the best single source of information and Videos to help anyone..




My opinion (for the worth of it and it's definitely worth what you paid).. best teacher I know is trial and error.... read other's techniques.. whether good or bad, watch as many videos as you can and turn as much wood as you can find... I've been a member of this forum for about 3 or 4 years and have read almost every post... some work, some don't ... doesn't mean the post is irrelevant just means it doesn't work for me.  

Anyway, Mick, I understood what you were suggesting.. we all needed some measure of deciding what advice or ideas would work for us and which would not... beside, I really like to look at the pictures... it's surprising what I can learn by studying the pictures.  For what it's worth, my album disappeared when the forum switched formats... don't know where it went, but haven't put anything back yet... maybe one of these days.  I spend enough time just keeping the web site pictures up to date.


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## just_call_me_dusty (Dec 18, 2009)

Most people learn in one of three ways.  Some learn by reading, some learn by watching others.  And then some of us just have to learn by peeing on the electric fence.


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## mickr (Dec 18, 2009)

just_call_me_dusty said:


> Most people learn in one of three ways. Some learn by reading, some learn by watching others. And then some of us just have to learn by peeing on the electric fence.


:wink::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:  loved your post..great humorous response:biggrin::biggrin:


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## skiprat (Dec 18, 2009)

just_call_me_dusty said:


> Most people learn in one of three ways. Some learn by reading, some learn by watching others. And then some of us just have to learn by peeing on the electric fence.


 
:biggrin::biggrin:

My problem is that as I get older, I need to wee more often:redface:


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## mickr (Dec 18, 2009)

TellicoTurning said:


> My opinion (for the worth of it and it's definitely worth what you paid).. best teacher I know is trial and error.... read other's techniques.. whether good or bad, watch as many videos as you can and turn as much wood as you can find... I've been a member of this forum for about 3 or 4 years and have read almost every post... some work, some don't ... doesn't mean the post is irrelevant just means it doesn't work for me.
> 
> Anyway, Mick, I understood what you were suggesting.. we all needed some measure of deciding what advice or ideas would work for us and which would not... beside, I really like to look at the pictures... it's surprising what I can learn by studying the pictures. For what it's worth, my album disappeared when the forum switched formats... don't know where it went, but haven't put anything back yet... maybe one of these days. I spend enough time just keeping the web site pictures up to date.


  Yep, we have some of the best penturners available to us 24/7 by looking at their gorgeous pens and some very good bowl turners also..why not use it as a resource?  Hope you will have time to repost your pictures..


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## just_call_me_dusty (Dec 18, 2009)

Thanks.  Sarcasm is just another free service I offer.


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## mrcook4570 (Dec 18, 2009)

While it is certainly a place to start, photos are not necessarily a way to judge whether or not someone knows what they are talking about.  With proper lighting and background, it is possible to make a below average pen with cracks, out of roundness, and pitiful finish look astonishing.  On the other hand, it is also possible to make a superb pen look below average if the photographer fails to produce good results.


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## jkeithrussell (Dec 18, 2009)

If the person posting doesn't know the difference between "there," "they're," and "their," [substitute "your" and "you're" at your discretion] then it's safe to assume they also don't know anything about penturning.  Always watch for proper grammar -- it leads to all real knowledge.  





Just kidding.  The real way that you can tell is by experimenting. If the suggestion works, then maybe the poster knew what he was talking about.  If not, move on to the next idea.  I've never looked at the photo galleries of the people who have helped me the most on IAP.


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## wolftat (Dec 18, 2009)

We each have our strong points and our weak points, just because someone can get a sharp edge on a skew doesn't mean they know how to use it.


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## larryc (Dec 18, 2009)

jkeithrussell said:


> If the person posting doesn't know the difference between "there," "they're," and "their," [substitute "your" and "you're" at your discretion] then it's safe to assume they also don't know anything about penturning.  Always watch for proper grammar -- it leads to all real knowledge.



Yeah, that really tics those of us who really like to pick our favorite instrument, the nit!


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## fernhills (Dec 18, 2009)

skiprat said:


> :biggrin::biggrin:
> 
> My problem is that as I get older, I need to wee more often:redface:




 And i thought that was just me..Carl


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## bitshird (Dec 18, 2009)

wolftat said:


> We each have our strong points and our weak points,[size=+2] just because someone can get a sharp edge on a skew doesn't mean they know how to use it.[/size]



Neil, What's a Skew???? is that the thing I use to open paint cans with?:biggrin::biggrin:

Actually, I use so many different techniques, I've tried so many different ways of doing pens, that I have come to the conclusion that there is no right way! the best ways are the safe ways, this is one of those hobbies that much like in life. when you stop learning, it's over and time to lay down.


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## Displaced Canadian (Dec 18, 2009)

I hear that putting a bigger charger on the fence can cure the having to wee more often issue.


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## tim self (Dec 18, 2009)

Would someone tell me how on earth I can "learn how to hold a skew or scraper" by looking at a picture of a finished product?  Isn't that kinda learning how to build a car by going to the showroom at the dealership?  I admit my pictures are seriously lacking compared to some others but I can screw up a pen blank as well the next guy.


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## TellicoTurning (Dec 18, 2009)

tim self said:


> Would someone tell me how on earth I can "learn how to hold a skew or scraper" by looking at a picture of a finished product?  Isn't that kinda learning how to build a car by going to the showroom at the dealership?  I admit my pictures are seriously lacking compared to some others but I can screw up a pen blank as well the next guy.



Surely Tim you can tell that the pen was cut at a 6 1/2 degree angle on the skew by looking at the picture.... :tongue::tongue::tongue::biggrin:


Mickr, that was tacky of me.. I apologize.. it's nice to look at the pictures posted, but again, the best way to learn any of this is trial and error... experiment, and don't be afraid to fail.


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## Wildman (Dec 19, 2009)

Just shoot me, posting opinions and no pictures! 

I think everyone posting on this message boards is offering up opinion of facts. If you want truth, whole truth, and nothing but the truth go to bible study. Woodturning is more art than science. Besides hand and eye coordination skills, you need a bit of luck along the way.   

Yes, people on this message board made of up everything from walking hoe handles to road scholars. Some folks more full of themselves than others. At the end of the day, it’s all about hand and eye coordination skills attacking wood mounted on a machine traveling fast. 

Mickr, went to your gallery. Hope you’re happy now. What you call bowls looks like flower pots to me! Other than bowls some pretty impeccable craftsmanship.


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## Daniel (Dec 19, 2009)

just_call_me_dusty said:


> And then some of us just have to learn by peeing on the electric fence.



You brought back memories of my younger brother doing just that. just about the time i started to say hey remember the fence runs through that bush. he found it for himself. not nearly as funny in that moment as it is now though.


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## Marc Phillips (Dec 19, 2009)

Chevy Chase said it best.... 

"I'm going to give you a little advice. There's a force in the universe that makes things happen. And all you have to do is get in touch with it.... stop thinking.... let things happen, and be the skew".


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## tim self (Dec 19, 2009)

Daniel said:


> You brought back memories of my younger brother doing just that. just about the time i started to say hey remember the fence runs through that bush. he found it for himself. not nearly as funny in that moment as it is now though.



I didn't warn my younger brother, I talked him into peeing on the fence:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:


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## wolftat (Dec 19, 2009)

I don't think my fence is working right.


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## bitshird (Dec 19, 2009)

Just remember that all the advice given here is worth at least as much as you paid for it and some times a bit more.


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## Displaced Canadian (Dec 19, 2009)

About pens or electric fences?


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## bitshird (Dec 19, 2009)

Displaced Canadian said:


> About pens or electric fences?



I used to be able to get my son to check the fences, but even he finally learned, he'd call one of the horses up to it, funny thing is, I could only get my daughter to do it one time.
But she won't turn pens.


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## hunter-27 (Dec 19, 2009)

"peeing on the electric fence" 





mickr said:


> :wink::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin: loved your post..great humorous response:biggrin::biggrin:


Humorous until you actually do it!!!


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## jeffnreno (Dec 19, 2009)

I don't know about peeing on the electric fence!!!
But I do know that the advice you get on any website is just that advice.
You have to take it all in and then give it a go.
That way you figure out what works for you.
And what works for you may not work for the next guy.
And I'm sure the next guy will take your advice and come up with what works for them.


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## ldubia (Dec 20, 2009)

mickr said:


> I have been enjoying this website for quite a spell..and I think maybe new folks could use a tad of help to understand that the answers they get many times are opinions and not necessarily fact. There are people who appear to give answers & opinions and it is clear they don't know beans...then there are folks who have great knowledge and share it freely.. The question then for newbies is : WHO to trust?  I pondered this for quite awhile and maybe this will help...Go to the person's gallery pictures..if their pens are worse than yours, you might not consider their info valuable..If they are telling you how to turn a bowl and have no nice bowls posted, you might blow by their advice..Pictures will tell you the skill and abilities of the person who is advising you...:biggrin:THIS IS MY OPINION:biggrin: and I hope it helps those who are feeling their way in a new hobby



As was stated in another  reply to this post, some people may not have a way with words.  This is certainly true of a great many people.  
I am a fairly new turner and take to heart many of the things I read here and in other places as I research my material.  Just because there are no pictures means nothing to me.  Pictures are nice but the understanding is best accomplished through reflection on what you are reading and seeing.  If a person thinks they understand something and try it and it fails for them, it may not be the right way to do it for them.  There are many ways to do things as is evidenced by the products people put out.  Experience is best gained by trial and error.  I have tried several things that I have read about and not seen pictures of and they have worked out just fine.  I have also tried and failed at things I have seen pictures of and read about.  Therefor, pictures do not necessarily make it the best judge.
This is my opinion.

Happy holidays and thanks for looking out for us.


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## Texatdurango (Dec 20, 2009)

mickr said:


> I have been enjoying this website for quite a spell..and I think maybe new folks could use a tad of help to understand that the answers they get many times are opinions and not necessarily fact. There are people who appear to give answers & opinions and it is clear they don't know beans...then there are folks who have great knowledge and share it freely.. The question then for newbies is : WHO to trust? I pondered this for quite awhile and maybe this will help...Go to the person's gallery pictures..if their pens are worse than yours, you might not consider their info valuable..If they are telling you how to turn a bowl and have no nice bowls posted, you might blow by their advice..Pictures will tell you the skill and abilities of the person who is advising you...:biggrin:THIS IS MY OPINION:biggrin: and I hope it helps those who are feeling their way in a new hobby


 
I don't know if photos of completed pens are a good criteria to judge someones value or not.  I used to have photos on the IAP but they are all gone so I guess they fall off after a while.  I think photos along with the advice shows the reader that you at least know how to do what you are talking about.

I'm glad to see this thread as I would like some honest advice because I'm doing something terribly WRONG and coming across as smug or "know it all" lately and I think it's just the way I write and come across.

When I share the way I do something I pretend the audience has never done what I am showing so I don't overlook any "basic steps" for the newbies.  I always try to include photos since in pen turning we have a dozen names for the same thing and a lot of new folks don't know what we're talking about especially when we start using our "home made" acronyms or cyber abbreviations!  I also try to state that what I am sharing is not the only way of doing something, just "my way".

That last phrase has caused me a lot of grief lately because I think people are taking it the wrong way and I've received some doozy emails asking things like "who died and made me pen God?" or "None of this was MY idea, I only copy from others".  It got so carried away that I changed the phrase from "my way" to "another way".

What I mean to convey is that what I am showing is how I do something and there are other ways so don't get hung up trying to follow every tiny detail to the letter.

At first I thought it would be easy sharing ideas with others but it is actually very hard!  You have to watch every word you use because you never know how someone will take it.

It would be nice to know if there were some "middle of the road" phrases to use so folks don't think you're talking down to them.  Any ideas or suggestions?  Perhaps this is why some turners don't even bother with giving advice!


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## mickr (Dec 20, 2009)

Texatdurango said:


> I don't know if photos of completed pens are a good criteria to judge someones value or not. I used to have photos on the IAP but they are all gone so I guess they fall off after a while. I think photos along with the advice shows the reader that you at least know how to do what you are talking about.
> 
> I'm glad to see this thread as I would like some honest advice because I'm doing something terribly WRONG and coming across as smug or "know it all" lately and I think it's just the way I write and come across.
> 
> ...


  It's a bummer isn't it?..you say one thing & 3 people agree and 56 choose to put words in your mouth you never said nor intended..that's the way it works I guess...I have always enjoyed and learned something from your posts George...please keep posting & sharing


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## mickr (Dec 20, 2009)

ldubia said:


> As was stated in another reply to this post, some people may not have a way with words. This is certainly true of a great many people.
> I am a fairly new turner and take to heart many of the things I read here and in other places as I research my material. Just because there are no pictures means nothing to me. Pictures are nice but the understanding is best accomplished through reflection on what you are reading and seeing. If a person thinks they understand something and try it and it fails for them, it may not be the right way to do it for them. There are many ways to do things as is evidenced by the products people put out. Experience is best gained by trial and error. I have tried several things that I have read about and not seen pictures of and they have worked out just fine. I have also tried and failed at things I have seen pictures of and read about. Therefor, pictures do not necessarily make it the best judge.
> This is my opinion.
> 
> Happy holidays and thanks for looking out for us.


  Thanks for your opinion..I don't know how many times people have tried to explain things on this forum and supplied no pictures..everyone who responded, said PLEASE include pictures, we are confused and don't understand your post...so some of us need/would like pictures and some do not...Happy holidays to you & yours


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## dustmaker (Dec 20, 2009)

Texatdurango said:


> I don't know if photos of completed pens are a good criteria to judge someones value or not.  I used to have photos on the IAP but they are all gone so I guess they fall off after a while.  I think photos along with the advice shows the reader that you at least know how to do what you are talking about.
> 
> I'm glad to see this thread as I would like some honest advice because I'm doing something terribly WRONG and coming across as smug or "know it all" lately and I think it's just the way I write and come across.
> 
> ...



Hey George,

I know there has been some excitement here in recent days, but seriously, do we really need to walk on eggshells?  I mean, come on, so long as we are posting our experiences and ideas and trying to share information for the good of others, is there really any reason to take things personal?  I think we sometimes are reading things in that weren't intended in the first place.  I suppose it is a weakness of the written word.  I don't know the answer except that I have been posting online for many years and the problem is not unique to this forum.  While I think it is important to phrase things carefully so as not to purposely insult or belittle another, I think we should have free reign to express our methods and ideas.  They are our ideas and methods and if they work for us, then they are what they are.  There should be no reason folks should think that a way is the only way, or that this particular way is somehow the best way.  Just because it works for me doesn't mean it will work for you.  We all have our styles, skills and biases that interfere sometimes for the good and sometimes for the bad.  Others have said it better than I, the best way to learn is to collect knowledge and ideas and then go try it for yourself.  That is how I am learning.  But you know, without experienced folk like you taking the time and courage to post, there is not going to be much knowledge shared and the art suffers.  Post On!


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## dogcatcher (Dec 20, 2009)

The answer needs to looked at based on the how experienced the turner is that asked the question and the experience of the person that wrote the answer.  What a person that has been turning for 40 years does is not necessarily safe for the person that finally knows where the on and off switch is.  In the same context the turner with 40 years of experince may not know half of what he/she thinks they know.  The pictures are just part of the answer.


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## TellicoTurning (Dec 20, 2009)

Texatdurango said:


> I don't know if photos of completed pens are a good criteria to judge someones value or not.  I used to have photos on the IAP but they are all gone so I guess they fall off after a while.  I think photos along with the advice shows the reader that you at least know how to do what you are talking about.
> 
> I'm glad to see this thread as I would like some honest advice because I'm doing something terribly WRONG and coming across as smug or "know it all" lately and I think it's just the way I write and come across.
> 
> ...



Hi George,
I'm sorry you feel the way you do... I for one find your tutorials very helpful and have copied a number of them to my reference files for future use... some of the ideas don't or won't work for me, doesn't change the merit of the ideas... I can't see why you would have to be "politically correct" when you are presenting an idea and have stated in plain English that this is your method, not THE method of doing a particular task.

As for showing the 'basic' steps of a procedure... that is the mark of a good teacher, assume your student is a novice, and bring him to your level or at least to his own next level... I get pretty wordy myself when I'm showing someone something and as a student, I don't take offense if my instructor assumes I have no knowledge... 

At any rate, I haven't taken any offense to any of your posts, and or anyone's post... if I don't like what's said, I have the option to leave the thread and go to another that suits me.... 

My vote is keep on doing what you are doing.


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