# Classifieds Feedback?



## jeff (Oct 10, 2011)

The new classifieds have been operating for 10 days now. It's a little soon to be making any evaluation of how things will run long-term, but I'd like to hear what you think so far.


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## hunter-27 (Oct 10, 2011)

Can't say I have looked at it much since the change so I will abstain from the vote.


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## DocStram (Oct 10, 2011)

I've done quite a bit of poking around in the new classifieds.  Yes, it's only been ten days but from what I've seen so far . . . .  I give them a big thumbs up.  Yes, there may be some fine tuning but I think they're a major improvement.


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## Craftdiggity (Oct 10, 2011)

Not so different to me, but I have only looked as a buyer.  No selling yet.  Actually, there are far fewer ads now.  I'm not sure if that is a good or bad thing.


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## witz1976 (Oct 10, 2011)

I too have looked as a buyer only and didn't see much difference.  Then again it is only 10 days old


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## jeff (Oct 10, 2011)

Craftdiggity said:


> Not so different to me, but I have only looked as a buyer.  No selling yet.  Actually, there are far fewer ads now.  I'm not sure if that is a good or bad thing.



I notice that as well, and I've investigated. I believe that some members who were advertising, for example, one lot of blanks every day on two posts have started grouping their sales together. So perhaps fewer posts, but I am seeing on average the same amount of "stuff".


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## Monolith (Oct 10, 2011)

Well, contrary to my initial "Chicken Little" response, so far so good.

As a buyer, the only thing that I'd change is to merge the "classifieds and "premium classifieds" into one forum.  It's a bit cumbersome to have to check two separate forums for what - as a buyer - is the same selection of products.  I'm not sure if whatever vB addons you're using would actually allow that sort of combination, though, given the different restrictions on threads.


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## alphageek (Oct 10, 2011)

Monolith said:


> Well, contrary to my initial "Chicken Little" response, so far so good.
> 
> As a buyer, the only thing that I'd change is to merge the "classifieds and "premium classifieds" into one forum.  It's a bit cumbersome to have to check two separate forums for what - as a buyer - is the same selection of products.  I'm not sure if whatever vB addons you're using would actually allow that sort of combination, though, given the different restrictions on threads.



Remember - you had (at least) two in the old world as well!   The difference was in the old world, it was split "individual" and "business".  Just split a bit differently.

Also check out this thread from Jeff: http://www.penturners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=87370 

Even though I tend to look at "new posts", this is a cool way to see the latest active ads.

Dean
Asst Mod


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## bnoles (Oct 10, 2011)

Still early in the game, but there appears to be fewer ads and like Chris said, not sure if that is good or bad.  

The best improvement is that "advertising" and "self promotion" has been contained so that we can now enjoy the process of learning and sharing on the forum without the distractions and this is a "good thing"  :good::good::good::good::good: 

Thanks for all the hard work you guys have put into this and for taking all the crap dished out from the resistance to change.


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## Monolith (Oct 10, 2011)

alphageek said:


> Remember - you had (at least) two in the old world as well!   The difference was in the old world, it was split "individual" and "business".  Just split a bit differently.
> 
> Also check out this thread from Jeff: http://www.penturners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=87370
> 
> ...



Thats true.  TBH, I never looked in the business classifieds, though.  Now, though, I find myself only checking the premiums and the steals/deals/trades.


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## alphageek (Oct 10, 2011)

Monolith said:


> Thats true.  TBH, I never looked in the business classifieds, though.  Now, though, I find myself only checking the premiums and the steals/deals/trades.



WOW... you JUST made every business vendor stand up and like the new classifieds just a tiny bit more! (highlight above mine)


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## Smitty37 (Oct 10, 2011)

*Hmmmm*

I think I'll keep my opinion to myself for now.


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## Holz Mechaniker (Oct 10, 2011)

I spent $2.10 to auction off some blanks, granted I will have to pay fees over the final price. yet I don't think I will spend $5.00 over all.

Personally I want more bang for my buck.  Being infrequent seller I don't think I will ever post stuff for sale.


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## Buzzzz4 (Oct 10, 2011)

Holz Mechaniker said:


> I spent $2.10 to auction off some blanks, granted I will have to pay fees over the final price. yet I don't think I will spend $5.00 over all.
> 
> Personally I want more bang for my buck. Being infrequent seller I don't think I will ever post stuff for sale.


 
I will agree with you on this one. Being a small seller, my offerings will be far between times of listing. But that just means more stuff for me and those who live nearby.


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## MesquiteMan (Oct 10, 2011)

Holz Mechaniker said:


> I spent $2.10 to auction off some blanks, granted I will have to pay fees over the final price. yet I don't think I will spend $5.00 over all.
> 
> Personally I want more bang for my buck.  Being infrequent seller I don't think I will ever post stuff for sale.



I just took a look at your posting history and are you aware that everything you have sold here in the past could have been done for free in the Steals and Deals forum?


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## OKLAHOMAN (Oct 10, 2011)

I've only placed one ad so far in the classified as a vendor with great results and have used the premium classified as a buyer a few times. So far I'm impressed and they seem to be doing what they were untented to do,  eliminate  advertising in places where it shouldn't be but still giving members a place to go to to find products to enhance their hobby or business


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## Ruby pen turning (Oct 10, 2011)

I do not really have a problem paying to do classified ad but it does not make sense to post something that people cannot really see in the puny picture size that is aloud. If you cannot really see what you are looking to buy you are not going to buy it.


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## maxwell_smart007 (Oct 10, 2011)

What do you mean, puny picture size...

I think you can post very large pictures and still be in the file size constraints...


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## jeff (Oct 10, 2011)

Ruby pen turning said:


> I do not really have a problem paying to do classified ad but it does not make sense to post something that people cannot really see in the puny picture size that is aloud. If you cannot really see what you are looking to buy you are not going to buy it.



It's a thumbnail. Clicking on it makes it full sized. 

We have a lot of visitors still on dialup. So, by posting thumbnails, we're helping out our pals who don't yet have high speed access.


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## thewishman (Oct 10, 2011)

The ads that are current seem to be larger and to keep the pictures in  control, there are many more pieces in each picture. That makes it more  difficult to see, in detail, what is offered. I know I could PM for more  detailed shots, but the time lag would reduce the chances of scoring  some prime materials. For example, the large snakeskin blank posting. I  wanted to see better shots of the copperhead blanks, but they were  snatched up too quickly for an exchange of PMs to take place. (I  understand that may not be a perfect example, but it illustrates my  point.) The Amalgam mutts post is another example - each picture is  smaller and each has more blanks in it. That makes it harder to see what  is offered. Even after expanding the thumbnails.


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## Ruby pen turning (Oct 10, 2011)

Even clicking on the thumbnail pictures, under the allotted  kb the pictures are the size of an ETSY banner. With limited amount of pictures forces us to put them all into one picture which  for me means making a collage that cannot be seen.


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## jimm1 (Oct 10, 2011)

I'm not a fan. I absolutely respect the decision, but not a fan. I probably won't be posting since there is a time limit on the ad. My ad has always been an ongoing sale.


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## Smitty37 (Oct 10, 2011)

*Hmmmmm*



Ruby pen turning said:


> Even clicking on the thumbnail pictures, under the allotted kb the pictures are the size of an ETSY banner. With limited amount of pictures forces us to put them all into one picture which for me means making a collage that cannot be seen.


 I'm not sure I understand.  You can get pretty big pictures as attachments - I upload as .jpg files and the result is I have photo's larger than the pen itself.  I've got some issues with classifieds but picture size isn't one of them.


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## jeff (Oct 10, 2011)

Ruby pen turning said:


> Even clicking on the thumbnail pictures, under the allotted  kb the pictures are the size of an ETSY banner. With limited amount of pictures forces us to put them all into one picture which  for me means making a collage that cannot be seen.



Perhaps I don't understand what you mean. There are multiple ads in the classifieds right now with very nice 800x600 photos in about 100K. Our photo limit is 256K. With very reasonable compression, you can get a colorful, detailed 800x600 jpeg in 256K.  If people don't choose to do that, well that's another thing, but we're not preventing it.


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## Padre (Oct 10, 2011)

I put an ad in the classified.  I have no problem with paying the $5.00.  If I sell it, fine.  If I don't, fine.  If you put something in the classifieds in the paper it's the same deal.  You are paying for exposure, not a guarantee of sale.


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## KnB Polymers (Oct 10, 2011)

jeff said:


> Ruby pen turning said:
> 
> 
> > Even clicking on the thumbnail pictures, under the allotted  kb the pictures are the size of an ETSY banner. With limited amount of pictures forces us to put them all into one picture which  for me means making a collage that cannot be seen.
> ...



Wow, my bad! When I attached pics using the paperclip on top, the first thing I saw was "max file size 19 kb" ... I didn't look further down to the jpg which is a bit larger.  
Does this mean I can go back on my premium ad and enlarge the pics now to visible sizes? LOL!


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## BigShed (Oct 10, 2011)

Even though I think it is too early to give a considered reply, I voted better.

I was of the opinion that the selling and self promotion on this forum had got out of hand, and have said so in the past.

The new rules, and imposing a cost, has certainly toned down the endless number of "bump" and "look at me, look at me" posts by vendors (and I suspect some helpers).

The only thing I would recommend is to extend the amount of time that the classifieds are displayed, I think the time limit is a bit short. Not that it affects me as I am not really a seller here, I think I have sold something only once.


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## jeff (Oct 10, 2011)

jimm1 said:


> I'm not a fan. I absolutely respect the decision, but not a fan. I probably won't be posting since there is a time limit on the ad. My ad has always been an ongoing sale.



Thanks, Jim,

One of the things we wanted to eliminate were the ongoing ads. Some of the old ads had been open for months. In a couple cases, a year and a half. They had hundreds or replies and it just didn't seem reasonable to ask people to dig through all that information to understand what they were buying. Often, changes were made to the offering somewhere deep in that pile of posts.

Based on the "I'll take one" posts in some of those long-running threads, people were making thousands of dollars over that time span. Using the regular classifieds, one could run an ad continuously for a year for $130.  That seems reasonable.  In one thread I just looked at, that $130 would have been recovered in the first two posts after the initial ad, and there were hundreds more after that.


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## jeff (Oct 10, 2011)

BigShed said:


> Even though I think it is too early to give a considered reply, I voted better.
> 
> I was of the opinion that the selling and self promotion on this forum had got out of hand, and have said so in the past.
> 
> ...



Fred, you mean extend the time they are open? What would be your recommendation?


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## steeler fan1 (Oct 10, 2011)

My vote would be 'not sure', but that wasn't an option. Not being a seller I'm not fimilar with how the rules change doing business. From my perspective as a buyer the ad section seems quieter than before. Is this good or bad? Time will tell. 

Carl


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## jeff (Oct 10, 2011)

KnB Polymers said:


> jeff said:
> 
> 
> > Ruby pen turning said:
> ...



I see that confusion!

Yes, you can go back and upload bigger pictures.

I just fixed the outdated filesize limits in the attachment manager. We don't use many of those file types, so I could delete them, but I just bumped up the minimum on everything to 256K. Some like PDFs, are much larger.


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## Smitty37 (Oct 11, 2011)

*Observations*

Frequent users of classifieds are probably running into the same problems  I am.  

I find it too restrictive on the number of ads that can be open at the same time.  Especially in the 'classified' catigory.  Since the updates and responses in that forum are so limited, which in itself is ok, what good reason is there to limit it to one ad at a time....right now after 10 days there are 9 ads - and two that I know of were closed.  That isn't very many.

Updating in the premium classifieds to change or add to the ad seems to work somewhat [and I have used that feature so I'm not in the blind about it] although I have serious doubts about potential customers following the ads looking for changes once they've read them once.  I don't and I think I'm pretty normal as a buyer.

Having said that - those are issues I see with the policy, not a condemnation of it.  I'm still have not decided if it is better or worse - I will tell you that I sure don't think it's the same.


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## BigShed (Oct 11, 2011)

jeff said:


> Fred, you mean extend the time they are open? What would be your recommendation?



Jeff, I think 2 weeks is rather short. If the item(s) doesn't straight away (a lot do) then 2 weeks misses out on potential buyers. Not everyone logs on frequently, nor does everyone go looking for things to buy frequently.

A month would be a more reasonable time frame IMHO, but that then also will potentially clash with the (rather limited) simultaneous ads allowed.


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## patmurris (Oct 11, 2011)

Jeff, although i believe it's a bit early to tell, my raw feeling right now is 'worse'.

I've only been on the forum for a few month now but i have been a frequent buyer of blanks and a few other things, mainly from the 'individuals' section, and i see a lot less opportunities.

Although a few vendors did run ads for wood totaling hundreds of dollars, many blanks sales were below a hundred and the $10 fee is somewhat too much for those - and to my understanding the regular $5 classifieds are not practical for 'pick by number' blanks? Not everyone is 'making money' from those ads, many are just sharing stuff with other fellow pen turners and collecting a few bucks in the process - that do not even pay for the time and effort it takes to prepare and run a sale.

One aspect of the new DOC i think is a downer is that there are too many rules to read and understand which makes it overall complicated to determine where and how vendors should advertise.

There are still several sections to look at and a "check new posts" option for the DOC only would be very useful in that regard.

My 2 euro cents... :wink:

PS: great forum Jeff - one of the best. Thanks for your patience and good work!


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## jeff (Oct 11, 2011)

Smitty37 said:


> Frequent users of classifieds are probably running into the same problems  I am.
> 
> I find it too restrictive on the number of ads that can be open at the same time.  Especially in the 'classified' catigory.  Since the updates and responses in that forum are so limited, which in itself is ok, what good reason is there to limit it to one ad at a time....right now after 10 days there are 9 ads - and two that I know of were closed.  That isn't very many.
> 
> ...



1 - How many updates per day would be better in the both classifieds forum? You know if we remove any limit, there are posters who will keep their ad in the top few with constant followups.

2 - Two simultaneous ads in both classifieds forums would be satisfactory? We could theoretically remove the limit on the number of ads hoping that the cost would be somewhat of a limiting factor.


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## Smitty37 (Oct 11, 2011)

jeff said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > Frequent users of classifieds are probably running into the same problems I am.
> ...


 
I'm not suggesting more updates be allowed - just that because of the low number of classifieds in the "classified" forum that you could probably allow more than one to run at the same time.  
 
I would like to keep a general "Store" ad like the one that is there now running most of the time.  It is just saying "Here's who I am and here's what I sell".   I don't want to have to stop running that when I offer a special or something that doesn't warrant a premium ad.  
 
I personally don't have an issue with the Premium Classified Section - I have used 2 updates to add to the original offer and so far I have gotten some responses. So the one or two a day limit on op updates seems OK to me.  
 
I don't think add/change posting will be abused because folks will stop reading the changes if we make too many of them.  They will want to see something worth reading.  

I also think the time constraint will limit excess posting. It seems to me that most folks won't want to offer new things the last day or two before the ad expires.


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## Haynie (Oct 11, 2011)

A lot less adds.  Which, on one hand, is good because I don't buy as much.  I am sure the wife appreciates that.  On the other hand there are a lot less adds for me to shop in.  This means the buyers choice in blanks is limited.  It is early.  Maybe folks will loosen up.


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## OKLAHOMAN (Oct 11, 2011)

I on the other hand as a Vendor think 2 weeks is long enough, keeping the classified uncluttered with ads. I would like to see an overlap so we could run one ad for a week keeping it for one more week than having a new ad running simultaneously for one week with the first ad, in other words having a one week overlap of two ads.



jeff said:


> BigShed said:
> 
> 
> > Even though I think it is too early to give a considered reply, I voted better.
> ...


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## mredburn (Oct 11, 2011)

Will the software let you automatically close an ad when its time expires or do you have to do them all manually? 
I am for doubling the amount of ads allowed in the premium forum I would also double the time frame for the premium ads. And double the fees per ad. The annual cost of advertising to the businesses would not increase, unless they increased the number of ads they run. But the amount work to regenerate those ads would decrease.
I would not change the update rules.


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## moke (Oct 11, 2011)

I would like to have voted "Jury is still out".  As a buyer never to be a vendor, my only concern is this will not step on the occasional seller with the very innovative products to move our skills forward.  ie: the center finders, sanding attachments, etc...these are one of the great things of the site.  

I'll just watch for a while.


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## workinforwood (Oct 11, 2011)

Tell you what..I voted big no. I do not post in the classifieds hardly ever. I am not opposed to fee's for classifieds. I am opposed to other rules like Joe Blow is selling rocket propelled pen parts and I think that's whicked cool as hell, so I can't resist but type into the post how I feel about it, and since my thoughts are not negative, I should be allowed to say...Dang Joe, you are insanely cool my man...but oh no, now I need to be deleted.  I don't know what's ok to say and what's not. I am not partial to any vendor. If I by Joe Blow's rocket propelled pen parts and my pen launches out of the yard and I want to let the world know it rocked my world, I should be allowed to say so, right there, way to go Joe..oh but that's a violation, I'm bumping his thread, oh my dear lord, where's the black copters?  Yea...this is what drives me mad about it. I feel like the classified sections are a bunch of egg shells I dont want to crush.  I understand you need rules, but the rules around here have taken over. Pretty soon it'll be like a bible.  There was nothing wrong around here before these changes, other than a few whiners that decided life is not a numbers game, it's a loudness game. He who makes the most noise gets what he wants to shut him up...to heck with the happiness of the masses.  Yes..we need rules, I understand that. Yes this is a privately owned web site, the owner can do as he wishes, I get that.  You ask for an opinion, so this was it... I say it's CRAP.  You got a couple rabble rowsers, show them the door. Give us a feeling of freedom even if it can't totally exist, we can at least feel like it does.  That is how you get back the numbers of people and the activity levels.


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## Andrew_K99 (Oct 11, 2011)

workinforwood said:


> ... I don't know what's ok to say and what's not...


This is why I have had little to no activity on this site since the mention of the new rules. I didn't want to have to read through all the rules to know what is acceptable.

Also it seems the rules are being broken in SOYP but the posts remain ...

AK


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## SCR0LL3R (Oct 11, 2011)

workinforwood said:


> ... If I by Joe Blow's rocket propelled pen parts and my pen launches out of the yard and I want to let the world know it rocked my world, I should be allowed to say so, right there, way to go Joe..oh but that's a violation, I'm bumping his thread, oh my dear lord, where's the black copters?  Yea...this is what drives me mad about it. I feel like the classified sections are a bunch of egg shells I dont want to crush.  I understand you need rules, but the rules around here have taken over. Pretty soon it'll be like a bible.  There was nothing wrong around here before these changes, other than a few whiners that decided life is not a numbers game, it's a loudness game. He who makes the most noise gets what he wants to shut him up...



I live in constant fear of them black 'copters.. LOL

Seriously though, I do agree with this post overall. It's all a little restrictive. Where's the fun? I mean, I'm not allowed to say X in forum A, I can say X in forum B but not Y, and for heaven's sake don't let anybody mention Z in forum C, that's to be kept strictly to forum D. It's all getting to be a little much...

but that's me


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## alphageek (Oct 11, 2011)

Andrew_K99 said:


> workinforwood said:
> 
> 
> > ... I don't know what's ok to say and what's not...
> ...



Andrew,  the above 2 statements seem like an oxymoron?   You don't want to read the rules, but you think they are being broken?

AFAIK, there isn't any current postings in SOYP that break the rules.   If there is, I know the mods would like to know.   Honestly the rules are not that restrictive outside the ads overall.   Inside the classifieds there is more restrictions to stop 'bumping', but outside the classifieds you really only have to be more careful if you are a seller.

Dean
Asst Mod.


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## Haynie (Oct 11, 2011)

Andrew_K99 said:


> workinforwood said:
> 
> 
> > .
> ...


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## Andrew_K99 (Oct 11, 2011)

alphageek said:


> Andrew_K99 said:
> 
> 
> > workinforwood said:
> ...


I didn't read the rules but I followed all the comments in the long drawn on thread. AFAIK you can't advertise in away in SOYP. There are two posts on the first page of SOYP that IMO advertise for the seller.

I'll PM you the threads as to not state them openly. Please feel free to comment about my thoughts in the open.

AK


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## NewLondon88 (Oct 11, 2011)

alphageek said:


> but outside the classifieds you really only have to be more careful if you are a seller.



True. I just saw a post where someone was asking if it were possible to
do something .. something I created a product to do. And I couldn't say
a word.
Granted, it's better than seeing a bunch of people simply gushing like
schoolgirls about another similar product every time it gets mentioned, 
but it does bring you up short at times..


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## OKLAHOMAN (Oct 11, 2011)

NewLondon88 said:


> alphageek said:
> 
> 
> > but outside the classifieds you really only have to be more careful if you are a seller.
> ...


 
Yep, I've run into that same brick wall...:frown:


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## Padre (Oct 11, 2011)

Charlie, is it against the rules to PM them?  If so, then that's a problem.


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## Smitty37 (Oct 11, 2011)

*Given up*

I've given up trying to be helpful outside the classified.  I can't mention the products I know best even if I don't mention that I sell them.


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## bitshird (Oct 11, 2011)

As a seller, I think the new system is good, as someone reading the SYOP I think there still needs to be some changes. Not in the classifieds, but in the titling of the post. and Smitty stick around, you can still be of help, remember there is the thing about sending a PM.
I guess I'd have to say better!!! But with room  for improvement.
and I also agree with Jeff's point, it's nice to have some validation as to ones product what ever it may be.


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## animefan (Oct 11, 2011)

From a buyers perspective the marketplace looks a lot cleaner.


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## kovalcik (Oct 11, 2011)

I am a little mixed.

On the plus side, there is less clutter and threads are easier to read through. 

On the minus, I feel there is less choice for me as a buyer since there are fewer offerings.  

Also, if sellers feel they cannot comment on an issue because they sell a related item, that is not good. If that is true, then the rule should be modified in a way that allows someone who makes/sells widgets to answer questions about them. If they are misinterpreting the rule, then please clear that up.  Otherwise we are loosing a good resource of knowledge.


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## MesquiteMan (Oct 11, 2011)

There is nothing in the rules that prevent a seller from commenting on an issue.  They just can not mention that they sell it or recommend a specific item that they sell.  Like said above, they can also still send a PM if they feel inclined.  This is to stop all the constant salesmanship that was going on from some folks every time a question was asked.  Answer generically and your post will fall completely within the rules.

For example, if someone asks about stabilizing resin, I can not mention my brand but I sure can talk about methacrylate ester and its benefits as well as share any information I want about stabilizing.  I just can not mention my brand name or direct people to my website.  I still have my signature that can do that, though.


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## MesquiteMan (Oct 11, 2011)

kovalcik said:


> On the minus, I feel there is less choice for me as a buyer since there are fewer offerings.



And that is completely by the choice of the sellers.  They are the ones missing out but that is their choice.  Where else can you hit such a large targeted group of like minded folks for $5 or $10?  Or better yet, if you are just getting rid of some excess stuff, for free?  We are all just used to getting a free ride and IAP has decided that day is over.


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## jeff (Oct 11, 2011)

workinforwood said:


> Tell you what..I voted big no. I do not post in the classifieds hardly ever. I am not opposed to fee's for classifieds. I am opposed to other rules like Joe Blow is selling rocket propelled pen parts and I think that's whicked cool as hell, so I can't resist but type into the post how I feel about it, and since my thoughts are not negative, I should be allowed to say...Dang Joe, you are insanely cool my man...but oh no, now I need to be deleted.  I don't know what's ok to say and what's not. I am not partial to any vendor. If I by Joe Blow's rocket propelled pen parts and my pen launches out of the yard and I want to let the world know it rocked my world, I should be allowed to say so, right there, way to go Joe..oh but that's a violation, I'm bumping his thread, oh my dear lord, where's the black copters?  Yea...this is what drives me mad about it. I feel like the classified sections are a bunch of egg shells I dont want to crush.  I understand you need rules, but the rules around here have taken over. Pretty soon it'll be like a bible.  There was nothing wrong around here before these changes, other than a few whiners that decided life is not a numbers game, it's a loudness game. He who makes the most noise gets what he wants to shut him up...to heck with the happiness of the masses.  Yes..we need rules, I understand that. Yes this is a privately owned web site, the owner can do as he wishes, I get that.  You ask for an opinion, so this was it... I say it's CRAP.  You got a couple rabble rowsers, show them the door. Give us a feeling of freedom even if it can't totally exist, we can at least feel like it does.  That is how you get back the numbers of people and the activity levels.



I appreciate your candid comments, Jeff. I'll try to be just as candid.

One thing I have to say is that the mods, the managers, and I see the entire spectrum of complaints from members. What you see happening in the forum doesn't tell the whole story. You don't (fortunately for you, let me tell ya!) get to see all the PMs we get from camp A complaining about camp B, and seller X telling us that so and so post by his competition is out of bounds or reporting someone shilling product, and on and on. 

No matter what decision we make there are nearly an equal number of people on either side of the fence. For example, right now the poll in this thread is 26 better and 26 worse (and a bunch about the same). For every guy like you, there is one who applauds more rules. You might not be partial to any vendor, but many, many people are.

Personally, I'm a fan of far less rules than we have. I'm also a fan of not having to legislate common sense and good behavior. Unfortunately, over the past couple years, the classifieds have degenerated due to the lack of common sense and the increase of people behaving in ways that selfishly benefit themselves and their friends.

One of the things you apparently miss in the classifieds is a little bit of input from buyers. Like "great product" or "hey here's the cool thing I made with what you sold me". I miss that too. However, we were constantly bombarded with reports from people in competition that so and so was getting his thread bumped by shills - i.e. people who got free stuff or people related to them, or whatever. Some threads get 100% honest feedback from buyers, many don't. One of the things we've tried to do here is have a level playing field where everyone is treated fairly. It would be great if that could happen with no rules, but it doesn't.

I probably should have waited a few more weeks before asking my question. I think we'll settle into the new way of life in the classifieds, and I certainly expect rule adjustments in the future.

As I repeat often, if you can tell me specifically how to change the rules to do what you want AND maintain a level playing field without depending on people just playing nicely (which doesn't happen), I'm all ears.


----------



## jeff (Oct 11, 2011)

MesquiteMan said:


> There is nothing in the rules that prevent a seller from commenting on an issue.  They just can not mention that they sell it or recommend a specific item that they sell.  Like said above, they can also still send a PM if they feel inclined.  This is to stop all the constant salesmanship that was going on from some folks every time a question was asked.  Answer generically and your post will fall completely within the rules.
> 
> For example, if someone asks about stabilizing resin, I can not mention my brand but I sure can talk about methacrylate ester and its benefits as well as share any information I want about stabilizing.  I just can not mention my brand name or direct people to my website.  I still have my signature that can do that, though.



I think he's talking about commenting IN the classified thread.


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## jeff (Oct 11, 2011)

Smitty37 said:


> I've given up trying to be helpful outside the classified.  I can't mention the products I know best even if I don't mention that I sell them.



How would you propose we separate guys like you, with good, helpful  intentions, from the guys who will troll the forum constantly looking for an opportunity to mention their stuff? We tried to do that, but the set of rules just became so complicated that we gave up.

I suppose another approach would be to have no rules and a mod to send someone a nice PM to "tone it down" if they got to be a little too pushy with their product, but people don't like to be politely asked to do something when there is no specific rule. They get very snippy. "Boot the snippy ones" you might then say. However, even the most arrogant people have friends and followers.


----------



## Smitty37 (Oct 11, 2011)

*A problem*

Not entirely of their own choosing, Curtis.

I have right now some items I would like to sell. Just a couple of things that I want to get rid of. I sell similar but not identical items.

I have one classified running in the "classified" section and there is no way I'm going to go to a Premium ad for a single sale - even in classified I'd bearly cover the cost of the ad. So there is no ad. That is a fairly frequent kind of thing for me. I may still offer these things but they will have to wait until I can bundle a bunch of them.

Before you mention Steals and Deals - I think that took the place of individual classifieds so if, as a vendor, I use that to sell component sets (even if I don't normally sell them) it would be a violation of the intent if not the letter of the rule and I have you guys all over me.


----------



## kovalcik (Oct 11, 2011)

Thanks for the replies Curtis, especially the clarification and example of the rules on sellers contributing to other threads.    

As for the number of sellers, I hope some are just sitting on the sidelines watching and will jump back in when they feel more comfortable.


----------



## maxwell_smart007 (Oct 11, 2011)

Even the nicest people can become quite upset when we simply move a post from one forum to the one it belongs in...I shudder at the thought of trying to have someone comply with 'non-rules', when the 'rules' are tough enough to enforce!  

Andrew



jeff said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > I've given up trying to be helpful outside the classified.  I can't mention the products I know best even if I don't mention that I sell them.
> ...


----------



## maxwell_smart007 (Oct 11, 2011)

Smitty37 said:


> That is a fairly frequent kind of thing for me. I may still offer these things but they will have to wait until I can bundle a bunch of them.



That seems like a good solution - esp. if it's a fairly frequent kind of thing.  Save 'em up, bundle 'em together, and make efficient use of the classifieds. 

Good thinking! 

Andrew


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## NewLondon88 (Oct 11, 2011)

please keep in mind that my post was not a complaint, merely an observation
on the law of unintended consequences.


----------



## Smitty37 (Oct 11, 2011)

*Didn't suggest you do anything*



jeff said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > I've given up trying to be helpful outside the classified. I can't mention the products I know best even if I don't mention that I sell them.
> ...


 
I apologize for that response to another post on that subject.  I shouldn't have mentioned it.


----------



## edicehouse (Oct 11, 2011)

I like being able to go to the classifieds now, now 1 person with 8 different sales on blanks in the top 10 spots.

I have one small suggestion, maybe offer a yearly fee for those wanting to sell, and they have 2 threads they can have in the classifieds, and they can change them as they need.  I guess it would almost be like their own flea market.  Maybe even a limit of x number items.  Meaning if someone has a limit of 40, they can sell 40 blanks, or 30 blanks, and 10 different styles of pen kits.  IDK if that makes sence to you all but it does to me.


----------



## MesquiteMan (Oct 11, 2011)

Smitty37 said:


> it would be a violation of the intent if not the letter of the rule and I have you guys all over me.



You make us sound like a bunch of real jerks, Smitty!  

Every time we moderate something, a note is sent.  To the best of my knowledge, those notes have always at least been civil, if not downright polite.  Follow up replies from the person being moderated, however, frequently are not. (not talking about anyone in particular here so don't read anything into this!)


----------



## Smitty37 (Oct 11, 2011)

*Don't be so sensitive*



MesquiteMan said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > it would be a violation of the intent if not the letter of the rule and I have you guys all over me.
> ...


  Curtis, you know perfectly well that I do not think of you guys as a bunch of jerks....I don't call you that even when replying in private.


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## BigShed (Oct 11, 2011)

MesquiteMan said:


> You make us sound like a bunch of real jerks, Smitty!
> 
> Every time we moderate something, a note is sent.  To the best of my knowledge, those notes have always at least been civil, if not downright polite.  Follow up replies from the person being moderated, however, frequently are not. (not talking about anyone in particular here so don't read anything into this!)



Being a moderator on another forum I can only say "Amen to that"!

This thread reminds of the saying in politics "never ask a question to which you don't already know the answer":biggrin:


----------



## alphageek (Oct 11, 2011)

Andrew_K99 said:


> I didn't read the rules but I followed all the comments in the long drawn on thread. AFAIK you can't advertise in away in SOYP. There are two posts on the first page of SOYP that IMO advertise for the seller.
> 
> I'll PM you the threads as to not state them openly. Please feel free to comment about my thoughts in the open.
> 
> AK



Andrew and others that are worried/commenting about ads in SOYP.  I have to commend Jeff here - he did a VERY good job at leading a discussion with his management team on this very subject.  Here is how this comes in to play:

Any member has the right to post in SOYP.  Yes, some members become vendors, but they are members first.   As long as the specified rules are not broken, we do not want to take away them being members.  (And trust me - I understand the possibility of restrictions ... Mods are members first too, but sometimes have to take a back seat because of being mods.)  Therefore unless they specifically break the rules, their pens are allowed (heck - we want to see everyones pens, thats one of the best parts of coming here!).   Everyone is also allowed to state the kit or who made the blank.

Now, you may look at a few of the posts and say "Hey thats advertising" but if Curtis posts a Worthless Wood pen or Ed posts a pen on a Streamline kit and calls it that - it may look like adverting to some, but why should they have special rules just because they might also sell something there.

I hope this helps.

Dean
Asst Mod


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## alphageek (Oct 11, 2011)

NewLondon88 said:


> alphageek said:
> 
> 
> > but outside the classifieds you really only have to be more careful if you are a seller.
> ...



I hope you PM'd them.



NewLondon88 said:


> please keep in mind that my post was not a complaint, merely an observation
> on the law of unintended consequences.



I didn't read that as a complaint, but its definitely a case of "you can't have your cake and eat it too".   The problem with any rule like this, is there is some cases where it may be great to have the answer out there and if you could have posted it, things may be fine.  But there will be other times, when there is multiple answers and things don't stay nice either.

In a perfect world, we wouldn't need the rules, but moderation is a bear.  The moderators get hammered for everything at times: posting a simple warning in a thread, locking a thread, not locking a thread, or just moving a post.   This forum can be a GREAT family MOST of the time, but there is other times where people can act like pre-schoolers!  We need the rules to be as clear as possible so we can show that we aren't actually like my avatar (which I picked LONG before being a mod btw).

Dean 
Asst Mod


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## bnoles (Oct 11, 2011)

I have a question to the Admin team.  

Is it possible for the system to NOT bump a thread when a reply is made?  If so can this feature be isolated to only the classified section?  If so, this may be something to consider that would eliminate a lot of the original problem.

I know you probably have already looked into this, but I thought it might be worth asking anyhow.


----------



## alphageek (Oct 11, 2011)

bnoles said:


> I have a question to the Admin team.
> 
> Is it possible for the system to NOT bump a thread when a reply is made?  If so can this feature be isolated to only the classified section?  If so, this may be something to consider that would eliminate a lot of the original problem.
> 
> I know you probably have already looked into this, but I thought it might be worth asking anyhow.



I'm pretty sure that we discussed that - and not only is it not easily possible without some serious custom coding (and thus risk), it is also would eliminate any valid cases for a thread to get bumped.  Not all bumps are 'bad'.


----------



## jeff (Oct 11, 2011)

edicehouse said:


> I like being able to go to the classifieds now, now 1 person with 8 different sales on blanks in the top 10 spots.
> 
> I have one small suggestion, maybe offer a yearly fee for those wanting to sell, and they have 2 threads they can have in the classifieds, and they can change them as they need.  I guess it would almost be like their own flea market.  Maybe even a limit of x number items.  Meaning if someone has a limit of 40, they can sell 40 blanks, or 30 blanks, and 10 different styles of pen kits.  IDK if that makes sence to you all but it does to me.



We've tossed different ideas around. One was vendor forums. A vendor could can buy a subforum and post whatever he wants for sale in there.

Another is a sticky thread, just as you say, open on a yearly basis, edit as needed. We'd have to put those in a specific forum because the edit time limits are set on a per-forum basis.


----------



## jeff (Oct 11, 2011)

alphageek said:


> bnoles said:
> 
> 
> > I have a question to the Admin team.
> ...



At the bottom of each forum's thread list is a sort field choice. I can set the default for that, but the user can override it.


----------



## witz1976 (Oct 11, 2011)

I am really getting disgusted at the snide remarks that are being made. I don't care how nice and pretty people are attempting to make it, it is getting out right nasty. 
Changes were made because people were not playing by the unwritten rules of common sense and dignity of others. So written rules were made. Now there are people crying fowl and seem to want to take their bat and ball and go home because they don't want to play by the new rules. 

Is this what this group turning to? A bunch of guys (girls havn't said a peep so I am leavig you ladies out) whining and crying because you cannot get your way? I have been wondering why so many great minds of penturning have left and I am finally starting to understand. Really freaking sad to see grown men act like children.


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## SCR0LL3R (Oct 11, 2011)

witz1976 said:


> I am really getting disgusted at the snide remarks that are being made. I don't care how nice and pretty people are attempting to make it, it is getting out right nasty.
> 
> ....
> 
> Is this what this group turning to? A bunch of guys (girls havn't said a peep so I am leavig you ladies out) whining and crying because you cannot get your way? I have been wondering why so many great minds of penturning have left and I am finally starting to understand. Really freaking sad to see grown men act like children.



Wow! I am definitely seeing some nastiness now.


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## witz1976 (Oct 11, 2011)

SCR0LL3R said:


> witz1976 said:
> 
> 
> > I am really getting disgusted at the snide remarks that are being made. I don't care how nice and pretty people are attempting to make it, it is getting out right nasty.
> ...


 
Yep, just getting tired of hearing the same song and dance from the same people.  I have been sitting back for a while and keeping my thoughts to myself, but like I said I am just plain disgusted.


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## Smitty37 (Oct 11, 2011)

*Replying*



maxwell_smart007 said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > That is a fairly frequent kind of thing for me. I may still offer these things but they will have to wait until I can bundle a bunch of them.
> ...


 
I was just replying to a mention that there were not nearly as many classifieds. While what I said will work most of the time it does reduce the number of classified ads. As I mentioned the only issue I have with classifieds is the restriction to one ad at a time.


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## alphageek (Oct 11, 2011)

Holz Mechaniker said:


> MesquiteMan said:
> 
> 
> > Holz Mechaniker said:
> ...



Please re-read what he said!  (see the red highlight I made) - there is NO $5 fee for  Steals and Deals.    There is a limit to how often you can post in there and some other limitations, so it would be smart to read the rules ... but Curtis pointed out that you would not have a $5 ad necessary for what you do??!!!


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## DocStram (Oct 11, 2011)

witz1976 said:


> SCR0LL3R said:
> 
> 
> > witz1976 said:
> ...




I'm with Dan on this one.  If you're going to take a cheap shot at Jeff and the mods, then "man up" instead of trying to act like you're the holy innocent. There's nothing worse than a weasel.


----------



## Holz Mechaniker (Oct 12, 2011)

MesquiteMan said:


> Holz Mechaniker said:
> 
> 
> > I spent $2.10 to auction off some blanks, granted I will have to pay fees over the final price. yet I don't think I will spend $5.00 over all.
> ...



Really For free?!   Where does it say that in this?  http://www.penturners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=85686

I don't see anything that said I can post a sale for free.... WHY!?  Because I am going to read the rules and ignore the rest and if the rules say you must pay to play.... and DOESN'T explain the multiple levels as how that forum is broken down 



> *Using the Classifieds and Premium Classifieds Forums*​
> The General Rules for All Selling apply in these forums.
> 
> *Purpose:* The Classifieds and Premium Classifieds forums are  intended for the repeated sale of items related to pen making. If you  sell the same or similar items repeatedly, you must use one of these  forums.
> ...


At this point I stopped reading
And even then I see  *Purpose:* The Classifieds and Premium Classifieds forums... yada yada yada
then *
Cost:* IF you want to put up an ad for what the Frick ever, you can will pay either $5. or $10........  blah blah blah.....  

It is not so much what is written, it is the tone of how this has been laid out.
The steals deal section it is not mentioned above... NOPE This screams... YOU WANT TO PLAY YOU WILL HAVE TO PAY!!!!!!  we are not concerned with what is being sold, as much as we want our cut 

Bottom line is this, the layout is given to the those that have massive stuff to sell. and kinda leaves the person that has a turning tool or a small amount of blanks that they don't need or just don't want for whatever reason.  It just turns a person off 
Personally, most of what is put in the pay classifieds should be on that persons personal website, eBay or Etsy.  But that is my opinion.


----------



## MesquiteMan (Oct 12, 2011)

This is posted in the Steals and Deals Forum. http://www.penturners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=85676 

I do agree that we need to have this thread in the General Information section just like the rules for the other 2.  I will let Jeff know.  I am sure it was just an oversight to not have it included.


----------



## Timebandit (Oct 12, 2011)

Obviously like you stated you arent even bothering to Read the rules, and come on complaining about what you dont understand. It doesnt have to say that its FREE! What is DOESNT say is that you have to PAY! Go to the Steals and Deals forum and click new thread. Does it ask you to PAY?????? NO!!!!!!! Steals and Deals is FREEE!! Just take a few minutes to read instead of " I stopped right there...yada yada yada.. you want your cut!!!!!"
The fee that you are talking about is ONLY IN THE CLASSIFIEDS AND PREMIUM CLASSIFIEDS!!! It says that big and boldly below! *Using the Classifieds and Premium Classifieds Forums *Nowhere does that say steals and deals. Curtis explained that already as well as others. Then you complain about "unless you get your cut". Well do you like the IAP??? It takes money to run. If you dont want to contribute you dont have to, but others are MORE than happy to help keep this place like it is. If when you first joined the IAP there was a fee to pay to advertise, you wouldnt be complaining right now. Youve just had a free ride and now you are sour that you have to Pay to Play as you would call it, and since you dont sell enough for things to work like you think. But as others have said, YOU DO NOT HAVE TO PAY IN THE STEALS AND DEALS FORUM!



Holz Mechaniker said:


> MesquiteMan said:
> 
> 
> > Holz Mechaniker said:
> ...


----------



## Texatdurango (Oct 12, 2011)

Wow, talk about folks getting angry, I can't recall ever seeing this much hostility! Goes to show you what money does to people!

Geeze, if they are this upset over the new "Pay to play" policy, can you imagine what their reaction would be if Jeff decided that enough is enough.......no more selling on the IAP period!

I'd bet a few would even get so upset they would quit the forum for good and all we would have left are folks who come here to discuss pen making and share their ideas with others........... Hey, not a bad idea! 

Jeff, I think the classifieds seem to be working ok but all this rage and hostility is getting out of hand, I just hope it will die down.


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## Holz Mechaniker (Oct 12, 2011)

MesquiteMan said:


> This is posted in the Steals and Deals Forum. http://www.penturners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=85676
> 
> I do agree that we need to have this thread in the General Information section just like the rules for the other 2.  I will let Jeff know.  I am sure it was just an oversight to not have it included.



OUTstanding, Bingo...
A lot of "press" if you will was put on the Pay Classifieds and NADA on the Steals and deals section.  I wouldn't have gotten so up in arms over it all.


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## SCR0LL3R (Oct 12, 2011)

DocStram said:


> I'm with Dan on this one.  If you're going to take a cheap shot at Jeff and the mods, then "man up" instead of trying to act like you're the holy innocent. There's nothing worse than a weasel.



Where are these cheap shots? Jeff asked for feedback and people are giving just that. As far as I can tell, that's pretty much how the thread was coming along until _somebody_ got all riled up and started name calling.

Perhaps you guys thought Jeff was only looking for feedback from those that think everything is hunky-dory?


----------



## witz1976 (Oct 12, 2011)

Texatdurango said:


> Wow, talk about folks getting angry, I can't recall ever seeing this much hostility! Goes to show you what money does to people!
> 
> Geeze, if they are this upset over the new "Pay to play" policy, can you imagine what their reaction would be if Jeff decided that enough is enough.......no more selling on the IAP period!
> 
> ...



George, 

I believe some of the hostility is coming from people finally getting tired of the few who are complaining over and over and over and..........  until they get their way, I am one of them as I am tired of the whole thing.  I have tried the civilized way by chatting to those that matter through PM's and still do.  But when I keep hearing the same crap and some people who complain and admit they did not read the rules just shows that people will fight change no matter how much it could make the site better for everyone who comes here for the love of pen turning.  Not for the love of capitalism.  

Respectfully submitted.


----------



## jeff (Oct 12, 2011)

Holz Mechaniker said:


> MesquiteMan said:
> 
> 
> > This is posted in the Steals and Deals Forum. http://www.penturners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=85676
> ...



The rules were all in one section, but I moved them to the individual forums so that people would not have to follow a link from the sales forum to the rules forum. I was informed that would cause them to not read the rules. :biggrin:

Anyone who feels they paid for a classified ad when they should have used the free Steals & Deals forum, let me know and I'll refund your money.


----------



## witz1976 (Oct 12, 2011)

SCR0LL3R said:


> DocStram said:
> 
> 
> > I'm with Dan on this one.  If you're going to take a cheap shot at Jeff and the mods, then "man up" instead of trying to act like you're the holy innocent. There's nothing worse than a weasel.
> ...



All I am going to say is take a look at the the following posts in the following order, and read everything including the *bolded *subject lines (if present):

Post 50, Post 58, Post 64 - this is 1 example.

Post 59, post 66, post 67 - this is a 2nd example.

These are just 2 examples and I know damn well I can find more if I wanted (and I don't).  

 Am I riled up, yup sure am and I know I am not alone.  As I mentioned I am getting tired of hearing this same song and dance.  There are good intentions of trying to change the way the IAP is going from a site where people were throwing ads out everywhere, (which I was guilt of doing as well).  To a site that it was intended to be which is about the love of pen turning to further advance the craft.  

BTW I am pretty damn certain that I was not the first one to take the road of name calling, I simply gave a description to certain actions...  but go ahead and twist my post as you wish.


----------



## maxwell_smart007 (Oct 12, 2011)

witz1976 said:


> SCR0LL3R said:
> 
> 
> > DocStram said:
> ...



Dan and others...

Please refrain from the back-and-forth that isn't productive...we're trying to get input into the classifieds reforms, so lets please focus on providing usable and insightful information, ok? 

Thank you,
Andrew
assistant moderator


----------



## Padre (Oct 12, 2011)

I don't know why anyone is getting upset.  This is supposed to be a *discussion* on the Classifieds.

First:  IAP charges no membership fees.  It is strictly a donation site.  I would like you to keep that in mind while reading my post.

Second: The classifieds are what they are.  Jeff is providing a SERVICE to the members of IAP.  You pay $5 to ADVERTISE what you have that you want to sell.  Maybe you'll sell it, maybe you won't.  That is the nature of the beast.  If you are selling something for $3, then you probably don't want to put it in the classifieds.  If you are selling 100 items at $3, then you probably do.  IT IS UP TO YOU whether or not to use this service that is provided to you.  If you don't like it, don't use it.  I'm sure that whatever would have been for sale when it was free will be for sale elsewhere.

Third: Have any of you who are complaining about the $5 noticed that this is a totally FREE site void of advertising?  You have to pay nothing to access the best pen-turning, pen-making site on the web, and there are NO advertisements shouting out at you from the sidebars, top bars or any other place.  Go to Lumberjocks, or the Wood Whisperer and you will see lots of ads.  Compare them to this site and then thank your lucky stars that Jeff has chosen not to go that route.


----------



## OLDMAN5050 (Oct 12, 2011)

They are the rules and we have to follow if we want to use the classified add........... I think a add should stay up longer that 2 weeks maybe have to redo the add one time a month.


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## zig613 (Oct 12, 2011)

Wow, I have read through this entire thread and who needs the soap operas on TV, we have our own IAP version of “As the World Turns”.  Enough of the sarcasm…

Jeff... thanks for your patience in listening to the concerns/issues brought forward by IAP members and for seeing things through with the overhaul of the classified section.  Overall, a job well done and I for one appreciate your efforts.  As noted in a couple of earlier posts the only thing that could be re-visited is the two week listing time.  Perhaps a longer period could be looked at, perhaps in the 3-4 week range.

Thanks for providing us the opportunity to provide feedback.

Wade


----------



## bruce119 (Oct 12, 2011)

Well I didn't read all the post just first few pages. But I did notice that just about all the little guys are gone. That's great for the big guys opens the view for them and heck there making a profit and most just direct you to a web site. I haven't had time to post anything yet but I was planing on clearing out a bunch of blanks at a very low cost. I guess it's just adapting a different tactic. I am still sitting back and see how it goes and get a better feel for it. I have no problem supporting IAP but I can see why the the little guy that posted 1 or lots of blanks dirt cheap every other day went away. Like I said that's great for the larger competition. So I guess I am not sure.


----------



## Ruby pen turning (Oct 12, 2011)

bruce119 said:


> Well I didn't read all the post just first few pages. But I did notice that just about all the little guys are gone. That's great for the big guys opens the view for them and heck there making a profit and most just direct you to a web site. I haven't had time to post anything yet but I was planing on clearing out a bunch of blanks at a very low cost. I guess it's just adapting a different tactic. I am still sitting back and see how it goes and get a better feel for it. I have no problem supporting IAP but I can see why the the little guy that posted 1 or lots of blanks dirt cheap every other day went away. Like I said that's great for the larger competition. So I guess I am not sure.



I miss all of the ads where you could actually look for something and find it. Or just look for that matter. 
where have they all gone? As the laws of rules and regulations would have it, the little guy that wants to sell what they like doing and make a small buck gets squeezed and  says screw it, it aint worth sifting through the binders of do`s and don`ts. 
Since the new (regulations)  We have not sold 1 item on here.

Ahhhh rules and regulations hmmmm...  sound familiar.


----------



## magpens (Oct 12, 2011)

It's too early to pass judgement.  As a frequent buyer I am seeing fewer ads.  I think the sellers are recoiling from having to pay a fee to advertise.  I am still not clear on what "issues" the changes were intended to fix as I am a relative newcomer to IAP.  If one of the issues was fundraising, then I think an alternative method would be preferable.  I would, for example, be willing to pay a yearly membership fee and have free ads.  PREVIOUSLY, the ads provided GREAT ENTERTAINMENT as well as a source of GREAT STUFF.  I am missing that !!!


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## Texatdurango (Oct 12, 2011)

Ruby pen turning said:


> ......I miss all of the ads where you could actually look for something and find it. Or just look for that matter.
> where have they all gone? As the laws of rules and regulations would have it, the little guy that wants to sell what they like doing and make a small buck gets squeezed and says screw it, it aint worth sifting through the binders of do`s and don`ts.
> *Since the new (regulations) We have not sold 1 item on here.*
> 
> *Ahhhh rules and regulations hmmmm... sound familiar*.


 
Oh for crying out loud Brian..... now you're blaming the new rules for your lack of sales... REALLY, are you kidding! If your pen blank making business isn't doing so well her, perhaps another forum might produce better results.

Try googling pen making forums and see what pops up, try advertising on a few of those and see if your sales pick up any.

You start out talking about all the rules and regulations as if there are thousands of pages to sift through but to insinuate that the new rules are to blame for you not selling any blanks is just absolutely rediculous! If anything they should be helping your sales because there aren't many members posting blanks for sale. Perhaps something else within your control is the reason!

It absolutely blows my mind how some of you people can put such a spin on things to suit your arguments.

And what are you trying to say with your last line? Geeze, if you're going to say something.... say it, don't beat around the bush with cute little comments about how the forum is being run.


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## jeff (Oct 12, 2011)

Brian, thanks for your thoughts. 

Over the past few weeks I've asked repeatedly for specific improvements to the rules. I don't believe I've heard from you. I can't do much with "too many rules"...



Ruby pen turning said:


> bruce119 said:
> 
> 
> > Well I didn't read all the post just first few pages. But I did notice that just about all the little guys are gone. That's great for the big guys opens the view for them and heck there making a profit and most just direct you to a web site. I haven't had time to post anything yet but I was planing on clearing out a bunch of blanks at a very low cost. I guess it's just adapting a different tactic. I am still sitting back and see how it goes and get a better feel for it. I have no problem supporting IAP but I can see why the the little guy that posted 1 or lots of blanks dirt cheap every other day went away. Like I said that's great for the larger competition. So I guess I am not sure.
> ...


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## jeff (Oct 12, 2011)

bruce119 said:


> Well I didn't read all the post just first few pages. But I did notice that just about all the little guys are gone. That's great for the big guys opens the view for them and heck there making a profit and most just direct you to a web site. I haven't had time to post anything yet but I was planing on clearing out a bunch of blanks at a very low cost. I guess it's just adapting a different tactic. I am still sitting back and see how it goes and get a better feel for it. I have no problem supporting IAP but I can see why the the little guy that posted 1 or lots of blanks dirt cheap every other day went away. Like I said that's great for the larger competition. So I guess I am not sure.



Which little guys? I'll contact them directly and see if I can find out why they can't make it work. Little guys built the IAP and as I've said several times previously, it was not our intention to squeeze them out. 

At least one guy who used to post a small lot of blanks every day is still there. He combined his sales, figured out how to deal with the rules, and is still there selling. 

Thanks


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## Smitty37 (Oct 12, 2011)

*What do you want Jeff?*

Would you like my specific suggestions here or would you rather have me send you a PM.  Some of them might provoke a few readers.  





jeff said:


> Brian, thanks for your thoughts.
> 
> Over the past few weeks I've asked repeatedly for specific improvements to the rules. I don't believe I've heard from you. I can't do much with "too many rules"...
> 
> ...


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## Buzzzz4 (Oct 12, 2011)

For me, changes will happen and all will not be pleased. I voted that I don't think things have improved but that is for me as a small seller. I pour blanks as I can and in the past, listed them in small batches. Now I am just stocking up and looking at doing my own website vs. Listing on here or I will probably do both. What I do see happening for me is that I will be expanding what I have to offer. We all have to do what is right for us. 
Now as a buyer, the classifieds are cleaner with much less bumping. In time, the amount of ads will pick up and we will all find what we are looking for whether it is on the IAP or elsewhere. Change isn't always easy or good, but it looks like the admin. team is on the right track.


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## jeff (Oct 12, 2011)

PM would be great. 



Smitty37 said:


> Would you like my specific suggestions here or would you rather have me send you a PM.  Some of them might provoke a few readers.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## bruce119 (Oct 12, 2011)

jeff said:


> bruce119 said:
> 
> 
> > Well I didn't read all the post just first few pages. But I did notice that just about all the little guys are gone. That's great for the big guys opens the view for them and heck there making a profit and most just direct you to a web site. I haven't had time to post anything yet but I was planing on clearing out a bunch of blanks at a very low cost. I guess it's just adapting a different tactic. I am still sitting back and see how it goes and get a better feel for it. I have no problem supporting IAP but I can see why the the little guy that posted 1 or lots of blanks dirt cheap every other day went away. Like I said that's great for the larger competition. So I guess I am not sure.
> ...


 
Perhaps it just seems that way. I know the one you are speaking of and I did the same thing from time to time. Jumped on with a small flat box from time to time and make a quick cheap sale. That way of selling is going to be a thing of the past as it would drive prices up. But that is OK now you just got to post a lot of lots and I am talking cheap wood not high priced specialized blanks that's different more money involved. I haven't had time to post anything yet but my tactic will change. I got a ton of wood I got to get rid of I'm sure it will work out. Anytime change happens there is going to be a rebel we will adapt. Like I said I have no problem supporting the IAP there is plenty here that can only be found here.


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## Woodlvr (Oct 12, 2011)

I am not saying anything because as George just proved a member offers his opinion and gets attacked for it. It is ridiculous as Jeff asked for opinions and someone attacks them for having them why even bother to care about this subject if you cannot have an opinion? Just my humble opinion!


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## jeff (Oct 12, 2011)

Buzzzz4 said:


> For me, changes will happen and all will not be pleased. I voted that I don't think things have improved but that is for me as a small seller. I pour blanks as I can and in the past, listed them in small batches. Now I am just stocking up and looking at doing my own website vs. Listing on here or I will probably do both. What I do see happening for me is that I will be expanding what I have to offer. We all have to do what is right for us.
> Now as a buyer, the classifieds are cleaner with much less bumping. In time, the amount of ads will pick up and we will all find what we are looking for whether it is on the IAP or elsewhere. Change isn't always easy or good, but it looks like the admin. team is on the right track.



I completely agree that we all have to do what's best for us individually.

Back in June you listed 60 blanks at an average price of about $6.50. Most of them sold, so let's say your gross was around $300. The cost for a Premium Classified would have been 3.3% of that.  That seems pretty reasonable to me for the exposure to qualified buyers. I don't know how your results have been on eBay, but I believe the cost for selling there would be around 12%. I only quote this info because that ad was one of the ones we discussed when deciding on what would be a reasonable cost for ads for someone who considers himself a small seller.


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## jeff (Oct 12, 2011)

Woodlvr said:


> I am not saying anything because as George just proved a member offers his opinion and gets attacked for it. It is ridiculous as Jeff asked for opinions and someone attacks them for having them why even bother to care about this subject if you cannot have an opinion? Just my humble opinion!



I'll happily take your comments via PM.


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## Buzzzz4 (Oct 12, 2011)

jeff said:
			
		

> I completely agree that we all have to do what's best for us individually.
> 
> Back in June you listed 60 blanks at an average price of about $6.50. Most of them sold, so let's say your gross was around $300. The cost for a Premium Classified would have been 3.3% of that. That seems pretty reasonable to me for the exposure to qualified buyers. I don't know how your results have been on eBay, but I believe the cost for selling there would be around 12%. I only quote this info because that ad was one of the ones we discussed when deciding on what would be a reasonable cost for ads for someone who considers himself a small seller.


 
It is good to get that perspective. About half of that add sold which isn't in your control. I closed it as it got so buried under the bumped up ads that I gave up. This will be a good result of the changes. Ads like that one wont get lost as easily.


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## Justturnin (Oct 12, 2011)

Some of my thoughts.  I am new and only use the classifieds a couple of times so I dont think I can vote on it.

The bulk of what I do would be in the steals & deals just because I don't deal with large numbers of blanks nor do I do this to actually make money.  Most of what I make typically goes to another seller for their blanks.  I only have a couple of suggestions for steals and deals.

If you want to limit the amount of items limit the total number and not force them to be grouped.  It is hard to group items like that.  Maybe instead just limit the number to 25 items instead of 5 groups of 5.  What if a buyer wants a couple of blanks from a few groups.  The seller loses and so does the buyer becasue they cannot be posted that way.

Only allowing a seller to post in steals and deal once per quarter per like item is tough.  Maybe one like item a month or only one like item at a time, so you have to close you old post w/ some blanks to open the new one.

Just my thoughts.  No matter what there is no issue from me.  It's not my site and you open it up to me so I am greatful for what I have.  Like my kids say "You get what you get and you don't throw a fit."

Also, I am glad that you open it up for discussion.  I am sure changes will be made along the way, so thanks for that as well.


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## NewLondon88 (Oct 12, 2011)

well I only placed my first premium classified last night, but have had
some response already via PM. And nobody asked me if I still made
molds or told me "I thought you sold your mold business" so it's all
good. Maybe with less 'clutter' people can see the ad now? Dunno.

But I did have one question come to mind .. what about partnerships?
I know in the premiums you can have up to two ads going at once. It 
isn't likely to happen, but what if I had two mold ads going and then
Alton wanted to put up an ad for the 3D blanks? Creative Dimensions is
both of us, and he has nothing to do with molds. Would I need to take
down one of the mold ads before he could put up a Creative ad? I ask
because we've got some things in the works that might appeal to this
crowd, so we'll need to plan it out.


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## clapiana (Oct 12, 2011)

as a seller i think the process for paying is a lot easier then i expected.  i was concerned that after paying it took me a bit to get back to iap to post but everything worked smoothly.

yes we do need to review in a few months to see the number of posts in both sections.  lots of posts before added a level of excitment that was cool in that lots of stuff was always changing every day hmmm change that.... every hour.

before with bumps like "PM sent" a potential buyer  got a feel of the overall interest in an offering...if it was hot others also jumped in....now this is gone with only the ability to send a PM this dynamic is lost.

the intent of having ads getting posted that are much more organized being presented like a billboard ad has been acheived.  this is new and the jury is out to see how it works out in the long run for both the seller and buyer.  is there a place for this type of post, yes its just a differnt angle then what was working before even with some of the pitfalls.  i have confidence the mods will keep tweaking the model overtime and threads like this even with some heat being tossed around is healthy in that comunication is flowing.

a "free for all" section in the classified area would be interesting 

i agree $130 yr is dirt cheap stepping back and looking what you are getting as a seller on the iap.


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## gandsande (Oct 12, 2011)

I have noticed that the selling seems much less I have to say I am missing that, 

I my self decided to do the trade method instead to save the new fee,  I have to say it is nicer to be sorted better and I thinkIi got a fair deal for my trades. 

Myself at this time I will not be selling because I find the rules to confusing.  especially for The cost charged and then to be limited on the number of postings/update.  maybe if I was to have a large stock to be more then a guy with some occasional over stock or good deals to pass along. 

I am a little fuzzy as to why the coding could not be set up to stop the bumping and yet allow people to post comments.  Then the listing would just stay in order and if a person was interested in the Tread they could open it to find the latest update/post.  

I guess thats my 2 bits worth.  I am happy to see that the auto deleting and killing of posts when an accidental inapropriate comment is entered has stoped or at least is not quiet yet being done.  

I can understand Jeff and the other moderators fustration on the guys selling a lot of stuff for free at the groups/IAPs expense especialy if they are a retailier with there own website/business but,  as a little guy with an occasional item to sell or willing to pass along a deal found i think the limits are a bit much also.  

I will learn to live and hopefully everyone else will eventually. 

I know I will eventually sell again. once I understand the rules better.  maybe in the near future.

Greg


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## KnB Polymers (Oct 13, 2011)

I've just been sitting back and observing and reading everyone's posts. Very entertaining! 

Here's my observations ...
_People aren't selling anymore._ There's still only one page of classifieds and it's been almost 2 weeks since they started. I used to love reading the classifieds, seeing all the cool blanks for sell and seeing the varieties that certain pen makers bought (I would LOVE to see their blank stash!) Now it's very very boring going there and I find myself only glancing in there every now and then.
_
People aren't buying anymore._ The few that are posting classifieds, I used to see people grabbing their items up. Now, just a lot of lookers.
This is my second premium classified ad ... I have not sold a single tube. Not blaming it on anything, but would love to know the reason why. I rarely posted a bunch of tubes and didn't sell any.

My opinions ...
I would like the $5 classified ads to be able to accept "I would like item # XX" ... buyers could see what is sold ... it's ok for sellers to not be able to post, they can X the ones sold and anything else can be sent through pm. But I think when the buyers don't have a clue what is available, they skip it. People are lazy as a whole, they don't want to go to any extra effort.
Also, I really like your ideas and thoughts on vendors having their own little spot (sub-categories?) to sell in. Maybe somehow have it pop up in "new posts" when they add new items so buyers don't have to keep going through everyones "store" to see if there is anything new (back to that extra effort thing).

One last opinion I can't stop myself from adding ...
These changes have made a LOT of people act like a bunch of kids!! 

When rules are set in stone, people accept changes and go with it.
When rules are still up in the air, people are going to gripe and grumble hoping it will go their way if they raise a high enough voice.

Good luck Jeff and others. You have my sympathy in your endeavors! :biggrin:
And please, nobody jump on me for anything I wrote ... we were asked for our opinion. I almost didn't give mine for that reason. My husband did yesterday and was instantly jumped on.


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## doddman70 (Oct 13, 2011)

Well after much thought on how to answer the poll i chose to vote Worse. I have used the forum to sell stuff in the past but have not done so in a couple years and don't plan on posting an add anytime soon but who knows i may find something next week that i want to sell and i have no issue with paying for the add if i choose to do so. I have no problem with charging for the add and i think that Jeff should have done that a long time ago. What i miss is all the adds that used to be in the forum, I'm one of the guys who enjoyed seeing the adds and looking through at all the different posts to see what was available or to even get ideas on things i might like to make. I kinda looked at it just like any of the other forums. Just my opinion on the question at hand. Thanks Jeff for the opportunity to be here.


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## Displaced Canadian (Oct 13, 2011)

What about a wanted section? Just thinking out loud, the idea popped into my head today. If you need something and you are not sure who may have it...


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## jeff (Oct 13, 2011)

Thanks all for your input. We're interested in improving the classifieds and I thank those of you who offered concrete suggestions.


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