# Anyone turn bulk blanks?



## Eggineric (Mar 17, 2013)

Hello,

I have been approached with a rather large order for some pens.  There is no way myself or a few of my buddies would be able to fill this order.  I was wondering if anyone did bulk blanks or where someone would go for something like this.  

Thanks


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## plano_harry (Mar 17, 2013)

That probably depends on what the price is per tube.  You might have some interested folks on here that could divide up the job.


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## mrcook4570 (Mar 17, 2013)

How many, what style, what material, and what finish?


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## beck3906 (Mar 17, 2013)

If I could offer a suggestion....

If you decide to outsource some of this work, request those who apply to send finished samples of the work they would do.   Use the same materials you would use for the order.

When received, inspect the quality of work to ensure it meets your standards.  If so, have it in writing that you will inspect each blank submitted for the work and return any that don't meet the standards that was sent you.  

Maybe require a penalty should any be rejected as your delivery schedule may be affected.

I don't want or need the work so I won't have skin in the game.


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## hunter-27 (Mar 17, 2013)

Eggineric said:


> Hello,
> 
> I have been approached with a rather large order for some pens.  There is no way myself or a few of my buddies would be able to fill this order.  I was wondering if anyone did bulk blanks or where someone would go for something like this.
> 
> Thanks


More details would be needed for sure.  type of material, kit, etc.  Also the time frame involved.


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## wolftat (Mar 17, 2013)

I have done orders of 1000 pens by myself in the past. I will usually talk them into going with a Sierra to save me time and the cost difference isn't too bad either.


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## jfoh (Mar 17, 2013)

I have done several orders for 200+ pens of one style. It becomes a grid worse than work and not matter what kit or what type of wood used you will be seeing it in your sleep for months. By the time you build in all the what if and where fores needed you will not be making them for a low price. People think that we can make a pen for ever decreasing cost based on volume. In fact it tends to go up in cost the greater the order unless you are making slim lines with very cheap, plain wood. 

Take a typical large order for 100 "fancy" pens. First no one keeps a hundred pen kits in one plating and one style on hand. Too much money tied up in one item for most of us. So you will have to order a ton of kits which your supplier may have to get in stock first. Second do you have a hundred plus blanks of top quality, in any one wood, burl or plastic? I use to figure 20 extra for all large orders. Blanks crack when drilling, blanks blowout, blanks crack while being put together and some finished blanks just do not come up to standards. I order extra tubes and figure a wasted tube is much better than a wasted pen kit because you screwed it up. In fact I use the extra tubes to glue up large batches without getting into the kits.  Third what is the time deadline. A hundred pens take a lot of time to make. Lead time is months not days or weeks. Fourth are you going to collect 50% of the money up front? This will not be enough money so your up front out of pocket is zero but it should prevent the need top clean out the checking account.  Fifth who are you dealing with and can you get them to accept a standard pen sample which will serve as a guild of what is acceptable as a final pen product. Nothing will make you more upset than sending out a large order and have them want you to replace 10-20 of them just because they are not as pretty  as the others.  Wood varies, plastic vary, burls vary and taste are not all the same.  Get a signed contract because if they change their minds or your person leaves the company you will have a lot of pens on hand with few customers for them. 

Put it all on paper. Get real cost for everything. Do not under estimate the cost as you will go in the hole real fast.  Do not forget the items like sand paper, finish, glues, rags, etc.... Figure out how long it take you to make one of those pens from start to finish and get a real time number for each pen. Figure your selling price for the order. Include boxes if needed, delivery if required.  Then total up cost and total selling price.  You can figure your profit and see if you want to do it for that much money. If you are going to make a thousand dollars profit on a large order but it is going to take 60 shop hours is that worth it to you? That is $16.67 per hour.  What if the profit is only $250 and it takes 60 shop hours. Most pass on jobs paying $4.16 per hour.  Large orders are work but the rewards can be very large. I made $8,000 on my best large order but it took all my free time for more than a year. Life is too short for another one of those.


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## ashaw (Mar 17, 2013)

My largest order to date has been 2,000.  I am working on four different accounts the smallest one 649, the largest account is 3,000 pens.  I batch pens generally two to three days of turnings are ready to turn.  That night cut drill and glue the next days worth of pens.  It is a different animal from doing 1 to 2 pens.


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## jttheclockman (Mar 17, 2013)

Good luck. I think I would shoot myself if I did over 100 pens for any order.


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## Eggineric (Mar 17, 2013)

Thanks for all the info and suggestions.  This order would be for about 3500 pens.  3 pens per kit.  3 different species of wood.  They would all be single tube pens.    

I am still working out the details with this guy.  Definitely going to sign a contract if that time comes.  I am just trying to decide if I would be able to fill the order first.  

If anyone is interested, shoot me a pm.  I will supply the kits and the blanks. 

I do appreciate everyones thoughts also. 

Thanks.


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## robutacion (Mar 17, 2013)

jfoh said:


> I have done several orders for 200+ pens of one style. It becomes a grid worse than work and not matter what kit or what type of wood used you will be seeing it in your sleep for months. By the time you build in all the what if and where fores needed you will not be making them for a low price. People think that we can make a pen for ever decreasing cost based on volume. In fact it tends to go up in cost the greater the order unless you are making slim lines with very cheap, plain wood.
> 
> Take a typical large order for 100 "fancy" pens. First no one keeps a hundred pen kits in one plating and one style on hand. Too much money tied up in one item for most of us. So you will have to order a ton of kits which your supplier may have to get in stock first. Second do you have a hundred plus blanks of top quality, in any one wood, burl or plastic? I use to figure 20 extra for all large orders. Blanks crack when drilling, blanks blowout, blanks crack while being put together and some finished blanks just do not come up to standards. I order extra tubes and figure a wasted tube is much better than a wasted pen kit because you screwed it up. In fact I use the extra tubes to glue up large batches without getting into the kits.  Third what is the time deadline. A hundred pens take a lot of time to make. Lead time is months not days or weeks. Fourth are you going to collect 50% of the money up front? This will not be enough money so your up front out of pocket is zero but it should prevent the need top clean out the checking account.  Fifth who are you dealing with and can you get them to accept a standard pen sample which will serve as a guild of what is acceptable as a final pen product. Nothing will make you more upset than sending out a large order and have them want you to replace 10-20 of them just because they are not as pretty  as the others.  Wood varies, plastic vary, burls vary and taste are not all the same.  Get a signed contract because if they change their minds or your person leaves the company you will have a lot of pens on hand with few customers for them.
> 
> Put it all on paper. Get real cost for everything. Do not under estimate the cost as you will go in the hole real fast.  Do not forget the items like sand paper, finish, glues, rags, etc.... Figure out how long it take you to make one of those pens from start to finish and get a real time number for each pen. Figure your selling price for the order. Include boxes if needed, delivery if required.  Then total up cost and total selling price.  You can figure your profit and see if you want to do it for that much money. If you are going to make a thousand dollars profit on a large order but it is going to take 60 shop hours is that worth it to you? That is $16.67 per hour.  What if the profit is only $250 and it takes 60 shop hours. Most pass on jobs paying $4.16 per hour.  Large orders are work but the rewards can be very large. I made $8,000 on my best large order but it took all my free time for more than a year. Life is too short for another one of those.



Very wise words of advice, indeed...!

This doesn't mean that one should be scared or put off but the FACTS, they are exactly what one will have to deal with when getting into I large order, 3.500 pens order, is a lot more than that, will either make or brake you, good and proper so, listening to those that have been there, done that, will be your best guide and target, if you don't feel comfortable/confident with such task, say no and move away otherwise, stick to your guns and make the interested party agreed/sign a contract of principle, that is your only security for later on.

These type of orders I believe, can be a great help to many of penturners out there that have the skill but have difficulty in making the sales, for whatever reason, dividing the order with half a dozen people that can make a pen based on the requested standards, can only be a good thing for everyone, put a few dollars in everyone's pockets and allowing the person in charge of the order, to fulfil the requirements of the contract so everyone is a winner, in the end.

Being cautious, is a good thing...!:wink::biggrin:

Good luck
Cheers
George


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## BrianG (Mar 17, 2013)

These are all great points of advice.  I think I would limit myself.  An order that big is really looking for a factory or willing to pay enough to make it worth your while.  I think I would limit my orders to 50 or less.  And I feel even that would be high.


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## sbell111 (Mar 18, 2013)

This is probably going to be a pretty unpopular poost, but we would never accept an order that we couldn't fulfill ouselves.  I am not in the business of either passing off the work of others as mine or warranteeing the work of others.


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## Dan Hintz (Mar 18, 2013)

sbell111 said:


> This is probably going to be a pretty unpopular poost, but we would never accept an order that we couldn't fulfill ouselves.  I am not in the business of either passing off the work of others as mine or warranteeing the work of others.


People don't necessarily come to you because the work came from your hands... I'm not Pablo Picasso, but people come to me because they like what I sell.  The purchaser doesn't care if I personally made it, they only care that it looks good and works as described.


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## Justturnin (Mar 18, 2013)

If they are going to be some bushing to bushing pens I would say time to invest in a metal lathe.  I would think an order like this needs to be approached in a production mode.  You can turn the pen down to size and once you get the sizing right on the first blank you can zero it out and reproduce that cut over and over.  Turn them all in one large batch.  Go, fill any blemished w/ CA and let that cure.  Run the patched blanks through again at the final size.  Then start sanding.  Sand them all.  Then start finishing. Finish them all. Then polish. Polish them all.  Then start assembling.  If they want a nice curve it can still be done like this just leave it a little fat and then do the curves by hand as the second step.  I could not imagine turning these by hand all the way.  To be honest I think they would be my last pens if I had to.


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## Displaced Canadian (Mar 18, 2013)

With an order that big it is no longer a hobby, this is production. If it saves a minute off each pen it saves you about 58 hours off the total order.


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## walshjp17 (Mar 18, 2013)

You could also use a duplicator.  Not that expensive these days.  Just need to find one that will fit your lathe, make the template(s) and then off to the races!


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## jttheclockman (Mar 18, 2013)

Couple misinformed people here. A duplicator will get no more done than if you turned by hand and will leave a bad finish that has to be sanded and treated any way so no time saved there. As well as a metal lathe getting more done than a wood lathe. Again a false statement. If you have to spend money for aditional tooling to get this project done you lost money. 

I agree with the person that stated if I can not fill the order I do not want anyone elses work to represent mine and i would pass on this. i would be highly skeptable with an order of this size. What is a person going to do with that many pens would be my first question???  You have to realize it is your work that is being represented and it must have been what caught this person's eye to begin with. If you are CA finishing these you have got your hands full and be careful of your health. Money may look good now but in the end the hospital bill may be larger.


Don't forget each kit is not the same size as you wear bushings things change. So many factors go into making a hand turned pen thus the term handturned. Time and care is what sells a handturned pen. 

If you take on this task, good luck and we will see you sometime next year.


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## jttheclockman (Mar 18, 2013)

Dan Hintz said:


> sbell111 said:
> 
> 
> > This is probably going to be a pretty unpopular poost, but we would never accept an order that we couldn't fulfill ouselves. I am not in the business of either passing off the work of others as mine or warranteeing the work of others.
> ...


 

I hope that this is not the case. You need to take pride in your work and be able to say you made them. At least turned the blank down. Sheesh what I am reading for money. :frown:


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## Dan Hintz (Mar 18, 2013)

jttheclockman said:


> Dan Hintz said:
> 
> 
> > People don't necessarily come to you because the work came from your hands... I'm not Pablo Picasso, but people come to me because they like what I sell. The purchaser doesn't care if I personally made it, they only care that it looks good and works as described.
> ...


I take extreme pride in my work, John, and my wife will tell you I'm anal about every pen... if it doesn't meet my exacting standards (even a single blemish), it becomes a personal pen, no sale.

There are very few people on this board that have a name big enough for people to actually seek them out for a pen.  I'm not one of them, but my clients do come back because they know I will not sell them a pen I do not stand behind.  They couldn't care less how it was actually made, just that I provide them with something nice they can't necessarily get somewhere else.  There's no high art involved in this transaction, no unique designs, just the same few pen designs created over and over again... if someone wishes to collect such pens as art, I'd liken them to Kincaid collectors (pen #50 of 2,500... same cost as everyone else).


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## Justturnin (Mar 18, 2013)

jttheclockman said:


> Couple misinformed people here. As well as a metal lathe getting more done than a wood lathe. Again a false statement. If you have to spend money for aditional tooling to get this project done you lost money.




So you have never had to make an upgrade in your shop to accomplish something greater in your shop?

Also, if you sell 3500 pens and lose money by picking a small bench top metal lathe you need to reevaluate your prices.  If he has only a $30 markup he will have paid for it in only the first 50 pens, and that is for a $1500 lathe.

Sometimes I think you post just to disagree.


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## jttheclockman (Mar 18, 2013)

Dan Hintz said:


> jttheclockman said:
> 
> 
> > Dan Hintz said:
> ...


 

But my point is it is YOUR work and not someone elses they are coming back to or at least I would think you would want it that way. What is the sense of getting into pen making if you are selling someone elses work. I understand custom blanks but at least you turned it and finished it. Maybe I am missing something in this whole thing and not only your statement but the whole premise of this contract. If I am selling my work I do not want someone elses name on it. I will sink or swim with what I make. Forgive me if I am misreading you.


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## jttheclockman (Mar 18, 2013)

Justturnin said:


> jttheclockman said:
> 
> 
> > Couple misinformed people here. As well as a metal lathe getting more done than a wood lathe. Again a false statement. If you have to spend money for aditional tooling to get this project done you lost money.
> ...


 

Chris my point is buying a metal lathe is not going to make the job any faster. Heck after turning 50 or so blanks he should be able to do them in his sleep. He will become automatically faster just by redundancy. I do not post just to disagree. I am trying to make a point. 

I usually make jigs to upgrade my shop to accomplish something greater or faster.


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## Smitty37 (Mar 18, 2013)

Hey guys, let's assume the original poster is as intelligent as the rest of us and knows without our advice whether or not to take the job.  He did not ask how you would do the job, he asked if there were any folks around that he could subcontract some the work to.  Why, for a change, don't we just try to answer his question.

No I don't know anyone that will do that.


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## Parson (Mar 18, 2013)

I did an order for just 30 Sierras and decided I'd never do that again. Sure took all the fun out of penturning for me, even if I did clear almost $800 profit from the sale.

New personal rule: Order one or two pens and they're normal price. Order 5 or more and the unit price goes UP, not down 

This has put a proper stop to all bulk orders!


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## SteveJ (Mar 18, 2013)

Eggineric said:


> This order would be for about 3500 pens.  3 pens per kit.  3 different species of wood.  They would all be single tube pens.



Eggineric, when you joined us in December you noted that you had turned "about 20 pens."  3500 might be a bit bigger of an order than you should take on.  Just thinkin' out loud...

Also, 3 pens per kit, 3 different species of woo.  All single tube pens.  Are there really nearly 1200 different single tube kits out there?  Better hope they all have the same bushings (assuming you haven't yet learned to turn between centers..)

I don't mean to be rude, but things don't seem to add up...


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## beck3906 (Mar 18, 2013)

If was the buyer, I would ask for a 10-pen sample to judge the quality.  After that, I wouldn't care where they came from as long as they met the quality standards we agreed to, were delivered on schedule, and came in at the cost I bargained for.  If you're buying that quantity, you're not likely to say they were all handmade by the same guy.


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## ed4copies (Mar 18, 2013)

Frank Lloyd Wright did very little of his own work.  Yet it has held value, over time because it was done to HIS specifications.


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## Smitty37 (Mar 18, 2013)

I still don't see anyone answering the question the man asked.  I swear asking what time it is on here will get 10 desertations on how to build Big Ben and another 10 disagreeing with the first 10...and the poor soul will still not know what time it is.  Sometimes it's enough to drive a man to drink (or binge on Kringles).


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## Joe S. (Mar 18, 2013)

Smitty37 said:


> I still don't see anyone answering the question the man asked.  I swear asking what time it is on here will get 10 desertations on how to build Big Ben and another 10 disagreeing with the first 10...and the poor soul will still not know what time it is.  Sometimes it's enough to drive a man to drink (or binge on Kringles).



You smug auction winners. 

As for the question; I've got plenty of kits to make myself. But if you want a bunch of blanks, I may be willing to go to the mill, get a board (they have some exotic stuff), and cut it into a bunch of blanks sized to your kit. But it sounds like you already have blanks. Good luck with the order, and make sure you like working with the species of wood you choose!


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## beck3906 (Mar 18, 2013)

Eggineric said:


> Thanks for all the info and suggestions.  This order would be for about 3500 pens.  3 pens per kit.  3 different species of wood.  They would all be single tube pens.
> 
> I am still working out the details with this guy.  Definitely going to sign a contract if that time comes.  I am just trying to decide if I would be able to fill the order first.
> 
> ...



Smitty keeps saying no one is answering the OP request.  The OP says to PM him or further details.  

Here are my thoughts....

How many would you want a sub-contractor to provide?
What type of finish?
What is the delivery timeframe?
What type of body materials?
What happens if you reject some of the submissions to you?  Who eats that cost?
When will your details be finalized?
When will a sub-contractor be paid?

There are others, but a serious person will take this to a PM.


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## jttheclockman (Mar 18, 2013)

Smitty37 said:


> I still don't see anyone answering the question the man asked. I swear asking what time it is on here will get 10 desertations on how to build Big Ben and another 10 disagreeing with the first 10...and the poor soul will still not know what time it is. Sometimes it's enough to drive a man to drink (or binge on Kringles).


 

How do you know he wasn't PMed a million times. He asked people to PM him.  He did ask for thoughts too.  :biggrin:


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## jttheclockman (Mar 18, 2013)

ed4copies said:


> Frank Lloyd Wright did very little of his own work. Yet it has held value, over time because it was done to HIS specifications.


 
Wonder if he ever did any pens:biggrin:


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## Smitty37 (Mar 18, 2013)

jttheclockman said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > I still don't see anyone answering the question the man asked. I swear asking what time it is on here will get 10 desertations on how to build Big Ben and another 10 disagreeing with the first 10...and the poor soul will still not know what time it is. Sometimes it's enough to drive a man to drink (or binge on Kringles).
> ...


I don't but I'd probably take bets that he wasn't inundated with PMs.:biggrin:


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## Smitty37 (Mar 18, 2013)

jttheclockman said:


> ed4copies said:
> 
> 
> > Frank Lloyd Wright did very little of his own work. *Yet it has held value, over time because it was done to HIS specifications.*
> ...


I'd wager Martha Stewart doesn't sew every piece of cloth that leaves Walmart with her name on it either. 3500 pens in a single order from an virtually unknown turner is not being ordered by someone expecting each one to be a collectors item.


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## Dan Hintz (Mar 19, 2013)

Smitty37 said:


> 3500 pens in a single order from an virtually  unknown turner is not being ordered by someone expecting each one to be a  collectors item.



Exactly my point, Leroy... one simply doesn't purchase that quantity of anything and consider it art.  You are purchasing a large number of items that look the same as every other one in the group, and each one will look (hopefully) like the sample that was given.



jttheclockman said:


> But my point is it is YOUR work and not someone elses they are coming back to or at least I would think you would want it that way. What is the sense of getting into pen making if you are selling someone elses work. I understand custom blanks but at least you turned it and finished it. Maybe I am missing something in this whole thing and not only your statement but the whole premise of this contract. If I am selling my work I do not want someone elses name on it. I will sink or swim with what I make. Forgive me if I am misreading you.


Let's separate the two ideas.  People come back to me for the reason I mentioned above... they like what I offer them, both from a uniqueness standpoint and a quality standpoint.  The same as the Martha Stewart items mentioned above... high quality (sort of) and unique (compared to other manufacturers).  Beyond that is irrelevant.

If I only offer them a couple of similar pens, it's a hobby decision.  If I offer them 3,500, it's a business decision.  I enjoy turning a few pens.  I enjoy the money from manufacturing 3,500 pens.  If the two paths cross, awesome... but either way I get some enjoyment out of it (from either standing at the lathe creating one pen, or standing in line at the bank enjoying fat cash in my hand from 3,500 pens).




On to Egg's OP.  While I cannot offer any suggestions for people, if it were me, here's what I would do... set up a jig.
1) Cut 1' lengths of blanks (or whatever length is convenient).
2) Drill the blanks with a long bit.  If it's more convenient or accurate to use shorter blanks and a shorter bit, do it.
3) Set up a jig to run them with a router.  Use a quarter round bit... dirt cheap, so buy a bunch.  The router gets them down to within, say, 20 mils of desired.  Turn blank 90 degrees, run again.  Bits exist to do a half-round, see if you can find the right size at a good price, cut the work in half.
4) Insert 1'-long tube using epoxy.
5) Sand entire blank to proper dims to 320grit.
6) Cut to length using fine-tooth saw.  Sand ends, if necessary.  Round edges so larger-than-kit ends do not protrude sharply and feel bad.  Kits that have same dimension of blank feel fine.
7) Select and use an easy-to-apply finish, maybe something that polymerizes without extra work.
8) Do final sanding.
9) Assemble kits.

I may have left out a step or two that makes the flow a little better, but you get the idea.

This project is perfectly doable, if you're willing to put in the time to create a good workflow and the proper jigs from the beginning.  It will not be a half-day affair to properly create the jigs.  Once done, however, it will make large orders that much easier in the future.

I would not take the job if you also work an 8-5 or they are expecting the pens in a month's time frame.  They must be reasonable in their needs, and you must be reasonable in your offerings.


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## jttheclockman (Mar 19, 2013)

I will step aside from this conversation because my thoughts differ from some and no sense belaboring my point. Good luck to the OP if he chooses to accept and also to those that choose to do orders such as these in the future. Just not my thing and I can not offer any help as to members or suggestions to do them super fast. 

As to now comparing our work to Walmart and Martha Stewart and who knows who else you want to bring up please do not include my name in that conversation. I do my own work and stand behind any project I make weather it be a scrollsawn clock or pen or flat woodwork or any other turned project. I do not source out my work. 


Smitty I did not say anything about Collector's pens. You did. If one can not take pride in what they do and they have a couple different standards (one for the Collector's pen and one for the junk pens) then that is their problem.

I now realize I should not have opened my big mouth on this topic because I have nothing constructive to say. I have no opinions. Wasn't born with one. Carry on and disreguard everything I ever said. There are far better minds than mine here clearly.


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## Smitty37 (Mar 19, 2013)

jttheclockman said:


> I will step aside from this conversation because my thoughts differ from some and no sense belaboring my point. Good luck to the OP if he chooses to accept and also to those that choose to do orders such as these in the future. Just not my thing and I can not offer any help as to members or suggestions to do them super fast.
> 
> As to now comparing our work to Walmart and Martha Stewart and who knows who else you want to bring up please do not include my name in that conversation. I do my own work and stand behind any project I make weather it be a scrollsawn clock or pen or flat woodwork or any other turned project. I do not source out my work.
> 
> ...


Sorry John, I was really responding to Ed's post and quoted yours by mistake.  My disagreement with the reponses in the thread was simply that no one was responding to the original OP.  If I am looking for a bathroom, it does no good if someone tells me the best way to build one.


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