# DEVESTATED!  What happened here?



## Bobostro61 (Dec 9, 2013)

I made this magnifying glass and a letter opener last night.  Both came off the lathe with a great looking CA finish.  This morning, they both looked like this!  What could cause this to happen overnight?  I was thinking maybe it was old CA glue?  Possibly applying the finish in a cold garage?  I don't know.  Any ideas?  I put on a few coats of medium CA followed by several thin.


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## thewishman (Dec 9, 2013)

OUCH! What brand of glue are you using? There was a problem a while back with one brand, since corrected with a new batch.


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## Bobostro61 (Dec 9, 2013)

Stick Fast.  I've used these bottles on many many pens with no issues.  They've been sitting around for a while.  I've been doing a lot of PR blanks and decided to get back into using wood for a change.  Just wondering if the combination of old glue and the cold garage had anything to do with it.  Although the glue isn't even a year old yet.  I don't know...


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## William Menard (Dec 9, 2013)

I'm no pro, but everything I read says start with a couple thin coats and finish with medium CA, like 2 thin and 4 on up on medium.


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## MikeL (Dec 9, 2013)

It has happened to me in the past ( see old thread http://www.penturners.org/forum/f14/got-me-now-too-109947/). Many folks suggested it was the accelerator but we're not sure.


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## jcm71 (Dec 9, 2013)

Stay away from Stick Fast for finishing.  It is only good for gluing tubes and gap filling.  If you are going to finish with CA, recommend EZ Bond.  BTW refrigerating your CA prolongs shelf life.


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## BRobbins629 (Dec 9, 2013)

Cold garage may be the clue.  Possible that the wood expanded after coming in from the cold.  CA does not have much elongation.


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## plano_harry (Dec 9, 2013)

Have not had that problem, but I think Bruce may have the explanation.


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## jeff (Dec 9, 2013)

What was the temp in the garage?


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## shortz1lla (Dec 9, 2013)

Definitely caused by wood movement... CA is extremely rigid, it will not expand and contract with the blank. My guess is you heated the blank while sanding, then applied your finish. As it got colder throughout the night, the wood contracted and the finish didn't.


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## Dale Lynch (Dec 9, 2013)

You can eliminate wood movement causing the issue by switching brands of CA.I use Hyperbond thin flex to finish mine.It costs around 5 or 6 dollars for 4oz.Then again it could just be old or maybe it's the accelorant causing the issue.


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## Bobostro61 (Dec 10, 2013)

jeff said:


> What was the temp in the garage?



Not ungodly cold.  It was in the 20's outside.  Warm enough in the garage though where the container of water for wet sanding didn't freeze from the day before.

As far as brands go, I've always used Stick Fast with no problems.  It's just a bummer to see such a nice kit go to waste.


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## reddwil (Dec 10, 2013)

This has been covered in many threads. I think the infamous broken glass look is still a mystery but does seem to revolve around stickfast


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## Dan Masshardt (Dec 10, 2013)

Bobostro61 said:


> Not ungodly cold.  It was in the 20's outside.  Warm enough in the garage though where the container of water for wet sanding didn't freeze from the day before.  As far as brands go, I've always used Stick Fast with no problems.  It's just a bummer to see such a nice kit go to waste.



The kit is not wasted.  At worst the blank may be wasted but may be saved yet.  

I use stick fast pretty much exclusively an love it.  Haven't had that issue yet - although now I probably will. :-(.


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## bruce119 (Dec 10, 2013)

I have seen this on some of my older pens. I believe that big swings in temperature causes it. I have done shows in FL were it HOT then they cool and get HOT again not a good thing wood expands and contracts. Are your blanks stored in the cold environment then turned, finished and brought back into a warm environment.   

Something to think about....
Good Luck


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## Steve Busey (Dec 10, 2013)

Bobostro61 said:


> I put on a few coats of medium CA followed by several thin.




You might consider reversing that - do a few layers of thin (at least one to absorb & bind with the wood fibers), followed by a few medium coats.


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## Scruffy (Dec 10, 2013)

I have had the cracking occur twice.  Both cases, the woods were oily.  I attributed the problem to the oils(camphor and sandalwood).  Now, the oil may not be the case, but my shop is heated and I've used Stickfast almost exclusively, so that was the only thing I could think of.


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## edstreet (Dec 10, 2013)

Perhaps we should get a group effort going, buy stick fast and do various experiments with it to see exactly what makes it do this.

Few questions that I have is:

*) What are you planning on doing with the glue and accelerator?
*) What type of accelerator are you using if any?
*) What type of wood is this?
*) Do you plan on doing a refinish or toss the blank?  

Reason for most of these questions is I would love to be able to reproduce this effect easily for not just artistic value but educational and documentation purposes.


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## seamus7227 (Dec 10, 2013)

This is very interesting. I have seen it on many others pens, none of mine. And with varying temps. I use E-Z Bond CA and even when it had gotten old, never gave me these types of issues


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## Dan Masshardt (Dec 10, 2013)

edstreet said:


> Perhaps we should get a group effort going, buy stick fast and do various experiments with it to see exactly what makes it do this.  Few questions that I have is:  *) What are you planning on doing with the glue and accelerator? *) What type of accelerator are you using if any? *) What type of wood is this? *) Do you plan on doing a refinish or toss the blank?  Reason for most of these questions is I would love to be able to reproduce this effect easily for not just artistic value but educational and documentation purposes.



Ed - that's a great idea. If we could make the cracking happen on demand, we could have a Better idea exactly what causes it.


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## Dan Masshardt (Dec 10, 2013)

Are you confident that the wood was dry?  

I have a question - has anyone had the cracking effect happen on stabilized wood?


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## shortz1lla (Dec 10, 2013)

Not sure how it could happen on (properly) stabilized wood... this really is a simple case of wood movement. It's not the stickfast, most brands of CA in the US are made by just one or two manufacturers and rebranded to suit the company selling it. I use EZ bond and stickfast, BOTH on every piece that gets a CA finish, and have never had an issue. I make duck calls that travel from warm dashes in pickups to icy cold water and back again regularly, yet have never encountered the "cracked glass" look. The wood moved, simple as that. Use dry wood and you will likely never experience this again.


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## 1080Wayne (Dec 10, 2013)

To me , those look like tension cracks rather than compression ridges . Even if the wood wasn`t completely dry , it wouldn`t shrink that rapidly , and it would be more apt to cause the white haze effect . I`m too lazy to check the thermal coefficients of expansion of different woods versus CA , but it appears that the one for whatever species of wood this , is higher than CA`s . But I would also bet that at least two other factors played a part in this , the first being a very thick layer of CA , perhaps not as well bonded to the wood as it would have been if the thin CA had been used first , and secondly and partly caused by the first , the CA was a long way from being fully cured and reaching it`s maximum tensile strength .


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## Gary Beasley (Dec 10, 2013)

Dan Masshardt said:


> Are you confident that the wood was dry?
> 
> I have a question - has anyone had the cracking effect happen on stabilized wood?



I have, and each time it was with the Stickfast Wood Finishing CA. I tried the same blank with the regular Stickfast and it didn't do it. It seems to be associated with the medium glue, not the thin. What this means I couldn't tell you.


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## Bobostro61 (Dec 10, 2013)

Dan Masshardt said:


> Are you confident that the wood was dry?
> 
> I have a question - has anyone had the cracking effect happen on stabilized wood?



The wood was definitely dry.  Zebra wood pen blanks I bought from woodcraft several months ago.  I keep my blanks in the house then out to the garage to turn.  Could be that I did screw up by putting the medium glue on first.  The blanks had some pits in the wood that I thought the medium would fill first and then put on the thin.  My mistake.  Live and learn!!


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## Ambidex (Dec 10, 2013)

I'm going back to your second post and have had issues with older ca and cool or cold temps..almost identical cracks that don't really seem to follow the wood grain..I'm definitely not an expert but would think expansion cracks would tend to mesh with the grain pattern..and before anyone flames me, I previously stated I'm the opposite of an expert and don't have scientific data to back my opinion.:wink:


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## TimS124 (Dec 10, 2013)

Bobostro61 said:


> jeff said:
> 
> 
> > What was the temp in the garage?
> ...



The kit shouldn't be wasted unless you glued in the fittings.  

You should be able to disassemble it, sand away the cracked finish, apply a new finish, and reassemble the kit.

So far, I've only had one kit that couldn't be dismantled and it gave me problems pressing in the fittings.  I suspect there might have been a tiny brass shaving wedged where I didn't see it that made the fit much tighter than normal.

A set of transfer punches and pen disassembly pliers have saved my butt several times (easily paying for their costs).

Penn State has the combo package on sale (maybe 10% off):

Locking Soft-Grip Pliers and Disassembly Punch Set Combo at Penn State Industries

Woodcraft carries the punches for just under $20 but you really need the pliers as well so you can grip the pen barrel while "persuading" the pressed in components to leave the comfort and safety of the brass tube…  

Harbor Freight has a set of transfer punches for about $10.  The pliers are critical though which is why I listed Penn State's combo package first.

Good luck.


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## thebillofwrites (Dec 10, 2013)

I'm going to go along with it being a temperature related issue.
I had the thick clear coat finish on an electric guitar neck do the exact same thing after  leaving it in a cold car for a bit too long, and then bringing it in to a warm environment.

Cracks just like those all up and down the whole neck.

I was not a happy camper.


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## 76winger (Dec 10, 2013)

Dan Masshardt said:


> Are you confident that the wood was dry?
> 
> I have a question - has anyone had the cracking effect happen on stabilized wood?



Yes - Stabilized Boxelder Burl. 
Also - The first I ever saw this effect personally was on a Gator-Jaw blank. 

Here's my personal experiences so far. 


I've experienced it 7 or 8 times at least in the past year or so.
I too use StickFast CA, usually 2-3 coats thin followed by 3-4 coats medium.
Temperature doesn't seem to be a big factor, most mine has happened in the Indiana spring through summer months where temps don't fluctuate rapidly at least.
I Normally use accelerator on the medium to speed drying.
I've tried NOT using accelerator with some results, but still got the crackling on some laser cut image bodies.
Crackling seems to occur anywhere from overnight to two months later.
I also tried the StickFast Wood finish CA with mixed results (same thin/medium method as above). Using Accelerator, some didn't crackle, and some did. Darn!
Tried StickFast Wood Finish CA without Accelerator and at least got different results: of half a dozen pens done, none crackled, but all after a few weeks of curing show a wrinkled "orange peel" like texture on what was a glass-smooth surface when it came off the lathe. So this is certainly not a very good alternative.
I've not tried other brands because I seem to recall reading in some of the other threads that people were having the crackling with those other brands as well.


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## pensbydesign (Dec 12, 2013)

made 8 pens for a order two days ago , the first one was a spalted stabilized blank, when doing the finish the stick fast glue seamed thick didn't seam to spread evenly so i opened a new bottle. the first one got that cracked look others didn't. the glue was opened about six months ago or so.


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## edstreet (Dec 12, 2013)

Good to know info here.

I still say we should do some hard core experiments with this to find out exactly what causes it and how things progress.

Few mental notes that I have I would like to try

temp: does not seem viable for some reason but not going to discredit it.

chemicals on the blank:  this perhaps seems something very potent, residue perhaps reacting with something that is in the CA.  I have even documented several things like this with amboyna burl.

contamination in CA/accelerator:  this seems to be a very strong suspicion for many threads here on IAP.  Yet we see same thing with none used, still makes me think the 'contamination' issue.

movement: we all know, or we all *SHOULD* know that CA is non-flexible and any movement over time will result in cracks of this nature.


Yesterday I tried to call stickfast to no use.  Kept going to voice mail but will keep trying to get in touch with them. I also plan on checking with other manufactures to see what they can share on this enigma.

If anyone has some damaged sections laying around with the shattered glass look and would like to send them to me so I can take close up 1:1 macro shots and mail them back, that would be very helpful.




76winger said:


> Dan Masshardt said:
> 
> 
> > Are you confident that the wood was dry?
> ...


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## pensbydesign (Dec 12, 2013)

thought the stick fast was a flexible ca ,
not sure also if i used a accelerate or not i don't always, i did on the ones that didn't no crack.


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## Mike_in_Atlanta (Dec 12, 2013)

I had a similar problem with some pens a few months ago.It turned out to be the result of using some older CA glue (Stick Fast Medium finishing glue)  I made a number of pens when the glue was just opened with no problem but when I made some after a few months the finish would crackle overnight no matter what I did. I bought a new bottle of glue and problem solved.  BTW - I kept the glue and still use it for gluing tubes in blanks or other uses where it is not a finish.

mike


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## farmer (Dec 13, 2013)

*finish*



Bobostro61 said:


> I made this magnifying glass and a letter opener last night.  Both came off the lathe with a great looking CA finish.  This morning, they both looked like this!  What could cause this to happen overnight?  I was thinking maybe it was old CA glue?  Possibly applying the finish in a cold garage?  I don't know.  Any ideas?  I put on a few coats of medium CA followed by several thin.



Either the finish shrank or the wood swelled up.

Average look of a pen the just came out of a freezing cargo hold of a air liner.

Farmer


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## Deadhead (Dec 13, 2013)

I'm not going to speculate on what happened; but when ever I see posts on the IAP about CA finishes cracking, I'm reminded about what Ed Brown once told me; "CA was never meant to be a finish".


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## steve worcester (Dec 15, 2013)

CA wasn't meant to be a finish. But I do know that Stickfast uses a different formula for finish than for their glue.

CA does shrink over time (have seen this when I have a CA patch under a film finish) , one of the issues with it as a finish is wood expands and contracts and CA doesn't at the same rate. With stabilized wood, I would think it doesn't move near as much as unstabilized obviously.

I think the problem is the thickness of the finish. Too thick and it will crack. I put a few coats of thin, sand to smooth it a bit and only a few coats of medium. You only need it thick enough so you don't sand or buff through. 

Any film finish can be but on too heavy and crack over wood. There is a limit to coats and then they become too thick to move at the same rate as the surface.


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## cntryboy1289 (Dec 31, 2013)

Hey guys, I am certainly no expert here, but I have worked with wood and wood finished on gunstocks for many years now. I have only turned four pens to this date.   From what I have seen over the years, any hard film coating can and will crack or fade over time.  I used an oil finish for this reason.

I have always like an oil finish, I have used a product called Arrow's wood finish for many years on gunstocks because it fills the pores of the wood quickly by being sanded into the wood and it dries overnight to a waterproof finish.  You can always give it a few more coats and the sanding job will determine the shine it gives.

I have tried the CA finish and just don't like it.  I had to take the pen apart and sand it off because it looked cloudy.  I do not have experience with the CA to speak of, but what I do have, I dislike.  I think I will stick to my bees wax and oil based finishes for now after reading all of the problems with the CA.

Your results are obviously different from mine, but I simply ask this question, if you know it can fail with time, why would you want to use a finish that can give you a bad name?  When I was gunsmithing, there is nothing I would've hated worse than for one of my stocks to have to come back because a finish failed.  Just curious on this.

Jeff


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## edstreet (Dec 31, 2013)

cntryboy1289 said:


> Hey guys, I am certainly no expert here, but I have worked with wood and wood finished on gunstocks for many years now. I have only turned four pens to this date.   From what I have seen over the years, any hard film coating can and will crack or fade over time.  I used an oil finish for this reason.
> 
> I have always like an oil finish, I have used a product called Arrow's wood finish for many years on gunstocks because it fills the pores of the wood quickly by being sanded into the wood and it dries overnight to a waterproof finish.  You can always give it a few more coats and the sanding job will determine the shine it gives.
> 
> ...




Perhaps this is the #1 reason that plastics are the top sellers over wood.  Also the question you need to be asking is why use that exotic wood and put a plastic coating over it and remove that unique feel to it.  May as well just use a cast type material and be done with it in the first place.

We know from gunstocks that oil finishes does hold up very well over time and many here knows that I am an advocate of that route.  Texture and feel is a major strong point on any pen.


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## cntryboy1289 (Jan 1, 2014)

I have always loved the feel of a good oil based finish, makes the wood feel alive in your hands for sure!  Since I am very new to the game, I have done all sorts of reading and everything I read up until I started said go with the CA finish.  I tried it on several things, I just don't like it as much as an oil based finish.

I'll give you a pic to look at and see if you can tell me which is which?? 

One has a CA finish and the other is simply polished and waxed.  Can you tell which is which?  You sure can when you hold them in your hands.


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## panamag8or (Jan 1, 2014)

edstreet said:


> Perhaps this is the #1 reason that plastics are the top sellers over wood.  Also the question you need to be asking is why use that exotic wood and put a plastic coating over it and remove that unique feel to it.  May as well just use a cast type material and be done with it in the first place.
> 
> We know from gunstocks that oil finishes does hold up very well over time and many here knows that I am an advocate of that route.  Texture and feel is a major strong point on any pen.



See, I'm an advocate of a natural finish on woods, too, especially the historic woods I've been working with lately. However, I read here that customers seem to like the glassy finish, so I'm torn.


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## NittanyLion (Jan 1, 2014)

I'm still new, at pen #524....90% have been straight CA(only used BLO on a few, the rest oil/shellac/etc).  I've NEVER had this happen.  Even when I was not very good at a CA finish.

I believe the reason why is because I always use fresh CA.  I order 60 day or less supply.  I also ALWAYS keep it in the fridge, sealed in a ziploc between uses.  I was aware of how CA can get once exposes to the atmosphere from previous woodworking and modeling experience, and make sure it is fresh if applying it as a finish.  More and more, I'm moving away from it.  Hope this helps.


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## mvande21 (Jan 4, 2014)

Since you are doing a magnifying glass, I assume you are not a beginner into turning.  But, I am always told to not use EEE wax and then top it with CA.  The reaction to those two does not go to your favor.


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## hornet406 (Jan 6, 2014)

I am also having problems with cracking of my finish.  I am told by my suppliers that StickFast finishing system CA has a bad batch out there and this is a nationwide problem.  However, they are not specifying if it is in the thin, medium, or accelerator categories or all the above. I am not sure though if I believe this as it is not happening to everyone using this system. I have also exchanged all my Stickfast Finish items with brand new lot numbered items and yesterday turned 3 pens.  Still have the same issue, but only on 2 of the 3. All the same wood type and environment conditions.  Shop is heated and maintains about 68 degrees. I am at a loss for the cause of this.  
I have started doing a BLO/CA finish now and I have no cracking issues.  That makes it seem as the accelerator is the issue as it is the component taken out. But I don't seem to get the same high quality shine.


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## Haynie (Jan 6, 2014)

I no longer use CA because of this and sensitivity.  This also means I no longer use wood either until I find a new finish.  Don't let people convince you it is the cold, It happened to me in every season which is why I stopped.


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## edstreet (Jan 6, 2014)

hornet406 said:


> I am also having problems with cracking of my finish.  I am told by my suppliers that StickFast finishing system CA has a bad batch out there and this is a nationwide problem.  However, they are not specifying if it is in the thin, medium, or accelerator categories or all the above. I am not sure though if I believe this as it is not happening to everyone using this system. I have also exchanged all my Stickfast Finish items with brand new lot numbered items and yesterday turned 3 pens.  Still have the same issue, but only on 2 of the 3. All the same wood type and environment conditions.  Shop is heated and maintains about 68 degrees. I am at a loss for the cause of this.
> I have started doing a BLO/CA finish now and I have no cracking issues.  That makes it seem as the accelerator is the issue as it is the component taken out. But I don't seem to get the same high quality shine.



I have done some recent research on this issue and after talking to several companies there was one common theme that really stood out.  

Most often time the problem is the accelerator is to fast which results in the CA being to brittle.  The makeup and age of the CA is also a key factor, some blends the older they get the more brittle they dry, added properties to the CA makes a big impact on this as well.    

When working with brittle materials and you have something that flexes or shifts then you will get cracks that form like this.  Shifting will happen during the cure process and if the blank changes over time.

Also I would like to point out that brand A of CA used with brand B of accelerator is not a problem at all. Mixing brands is what the manufactures does when they label accelerator anyways.  One company makes the CA while another makes the accelerator.

Not all 'CA' is the same either.  Additions to the mix makes a good deal of changes that should be looked at.  Consider the following.






The one on the left is odorless thick, the insta-flex will never cure to be super hard as you will always be able to dent it with your fingernail, the insta-cure is standard thin CA, the end right is odorless thin CA.  The insta-flex has rubber components in the mix and it does dry clear.


So in short and closing there have been a good number of reports, searchable via IAP archives, that shows stick-fast has a long and colorful history of having various problems with accelerator and CA.


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## edstreet (Jan 6, 2014)

Haynie said:


> I no longer use CA because of this and sensitivity.  This also means I no longer use wood either until I find a new finish.  Don't let people convince you it is the cold, It happened to me in every season which is why I stopped.




If you have sensitivity to CA then I would urge you to go odorless as the odorless does not have this problem.


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