# Laser Engraver



## designer (Mar 17, 2014)

I am contemplating the addition of a laser engraver to my small shop.  I don't expect to be able to make much profit off it, but there are things it can do that a CNC router cannot do.  I am looking in the 50W or 60W size range.

Does anyone here have one?  
Is there a brand you would or would not suggest?
Is the maintenance as easy as the manufacturers say it is?
Anything I should look out for?


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## TimS124 (Mar 17, 2014)

I use one via a local maker space.  I don't have to deal with the maintenance directly but I have tried a couple brands.

Mostly, the maker space chain uses Epilog.  A couple locations also have a Trotech laser engraver.

I used to think the Epilog's had a lame user interface…but then I had a demo of the Trotech.  Epilog is FAR easier to use/configure (and Epilog has a good support reputation and a helpful group on FaceBook…which includes Epilog personnel).

There are a couple of other made-in-USA brands (Epilog is made-in-USA as well, but not Trotech).  Depends on what you're after.

Are you planning to use it from a Mac or from Windows?  The latter is far easier/more common these days (which bugs me as a long-time Mac user but it is what it is). 

Epilog's driver is wrapped in a printer driver.  You use whatever app you like for drawing, then hit Print in order to access the speed/power/frequency settings for vector and raster work.

CorelDraw is pretty common as the drawing app.  Some folks prefer Illustrator and no doubt there are other apps, but CorelDraw seems to be very, very common.  To be fair, it's pretty easy to use…lots of tutorial/help readily available.

The way you tell the laser engraver to cut instead of engrave is via the width of each line (stop laughing, I'm serious…did I mention UI issues yet?). :big grin:

Any line narrower than 5-thousandths of an inch is treated as a "vector" (cut) operation.  Everything wider is considered "raster" (etch) work.

In CorelDraw, you set line thickness to "Hairline" in order to have it treated as a vector.  Early on, line width errors will cause strange things to happen when you "print" to the engraver.

Have you looked at how big of an engraving area you'll want/need? Do you want/need a rotary attachment? (makes it much easier to engrave round objects like pens, beer mugs, wine glasses, etc).

Some of Epilog's smaller engravers can accept a rotary attachment but some can't…

They can also do some 3D work once you've gotten comfortable with the basics of vector vs. raster...


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## designer (Mar 17, 2014)

Thanks Tim.  I have never worked on a Mac before, but I understand they are better for graphic arts than the pc platform.  Being about to retire, I will just stick with the pc for now.

I will be using a rotary attachment at times and engraving everything from wood to granite, glass and with the Thermark some metal plates.  Who knows what else.

The line width for cutting did not show up anywhere in my research so far.  I am glad you gave me a heads up on that.  I would have had a sore spot on the top of the bald spot trying to figure that one out.

If you don't want to cut thru a part can you still use vectors and just cut the power and adjust the speed in order to engrave as well?

Can you print from AutoCad or do you need a graphics program in between the cad program and the laser?

Thanks


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## TimS124 (Mar 17, 2014)

Allan,

As a Windows users, you'll have plenty of tools to do what you want.  The problem comes if you were a Mac-only user….so no need to worry about it for your needs.

In theory, any application that can print, can access the laser engravers.  But I think it would be odd to try, for example, printing from your email app or Microsoft Office.

For AutoCAD, I would suggest trying to print directly to a normal printer…whatever comes out on paper from the view you've printed is what I would expect to see being sent to the engraver.  I don't recall though in AutoCAD how to enforce the line widths needed to cause vector or raster operations so you might have to experiment.

I have exported from Inventor to other apps (mostly for use on a ShopBot CNC router).  That lets you force a specific view and may be required for setting line widths (if CorelDraw can import what AutoCAD exported).

When moving Inventor pieces over to VCarve (for use with the ShopBot), there's a trick…if you're having problems moving AutoCAD to CorelDraw, ping me and I'll explain how to do it (or Google…but it's tedious to find that way).

I've been told that Illustrator tends to not work quite as well as CorelDraw but haven't bothered trying to prove that since CorelDraw was easier/more convenient for me to use.

While you're learning, you can get by with the much cheaper home license for CorelDraw.  It's the full-featured application, but with the licensing restriction to not use it for commercial purposes.  Once you're ready to use it for paid work, upgrade to the commercial license.  If it doesn't work out and you switch to another app, you're only out the home license cost.

But, lots of sample projects are posted for use with Corel, so using something else may limit your initial options for art to work with…

Yes, if you don't want to cut all the way through, you can indeed just lower the power (or boost the speed).  It's not taught that way at the maker space I use but I've done it (figured it out on my own).  I call it "vector engraving" and it can speed up certain tasks quite substantially.

I whipped up a bowl layout gauge a couple years ago…just a bunch of concentric circles with a hole in the center and at specific increments outwards towards the rim (see enclosed photo).  Takes a few minutes to draw and if cut from scrap, its materials cost is literally about two bucks (the commercial versions sell for $12-$15).

The first version took about 22 minutes of laser time.  The concentric rings were raster-engraved and the text ran at a 45 degree angle from the center.

I tweaked the design to make the concentric rings "hairline" thickness and moved the text so it was horizontal.  Ran the raster portion to quickly engrave the text, then the low-power vector portion to make the rings, then boosted the power to cut the tiny holes plus outer rim.

That version takes about 5 minutes total!  If I were trying to make some for sale at a craft show, that's a huge difference in my productivity as well as a big reduction in the wear/tear on the laser!

The hi-viz orange turned out to be a poor choice…too dark.  There's a florescent yellow that's much lighter…but still has enough color that it doesn't vanish in the clutter on my workbench like the clear version did. 

I like the scrap bin at TAP Plastics…easy to get large enough pieces to make jigs, experiment, etc before doing the real thing on higher priced pieces.

Expect to have to experiment a bit on every new project.  Print the settings chart and keep it handy…but expect it to be just a starting point.  It will tell you what speed/power/frequency combinations to use for raster vs. vector on a variety of materials.  But, you'll need to tweak those if your lens is dirty, your laser generator is getting old, your material is slightly different (dark cherry, for example, should laze differently than light cherry).

For bamboo, I find that multiple passes at a lower power produces a more even engraving.  Trying to blast it in one pass tends to cause too much variation between light and dark areas (in the bamboo itself) for my tastes.

The laser opens a world of opportunities!! Enjoy!


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## TimS124 (Mar 17, 2014)

In trying to find a better authority about line width, I found this…much more detailed than the simple answer I was taught (<5 thou gets engraved).  Turns out, it depends on resolution as well as line width (did I mention UI issues with these things?).

Here's a link for an article on Epilog's site with the gory details:  Cutting and Engraving Different Line Weights

You'll also see that they say to just use "hairline" width in CorelDraw and it will all just magically work…until you find an edge case where it doesn't….  :biggrin:


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## dwarmbrodt (Mar 17, 2014)

I just purchased the Full Spectrum 40w 5 gen hobby laser and am very happy with its performance. The provided Retina Engrave software is easy to use for my purposes.


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## TimS124 (Mar 17, 2014)

Here are links for a couple of the brands mentioned in this thread so far:

Epilog:  Epilog Laser Engraving Systems - Laser Systems for Engraving, Cutting and Marking

Full Spectrum:  Home page


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## TimS124 (Mar 17, 2014)

One think to keep in mind with all of the laser engravers…there are materials that should NOT be cut or engraved…your user manual (or the vendor's websites) should have the full list.

A good examples would be PVC…because when you heat it with the laser, Chlorine gas is released.  

If it being a highly toxic gas wasn't deterrent enough, it's also very corrosive which doesn't help with the longevity of the engraver itself.


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## Bigj51 (Mar 17, 2014)

I use lasers by Universal Laser Systems made in Arizona. They are really really good machines.


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## TimS124 (Mar 18, 2014)

Universal Laser Systems can be found at:  Laser Cutting, Engraving and Marking Equipment, Machines and Software | Universal Laser Systems


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## Pen-Archer (Mar 18, 2014)

Do you guys use a flat fixture or a rotary pen mount?


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## dwarmbrodt (Mar 18, 2014)

Pen-Archer said:


> Do you guys use a flat fixture or a rotary pen mount?


 On my engraver I can do a single line of text without a rotary attachment but that will depend on the focus range of your lens. I did get the rotary attachment for my laser and have made more money engraving glass mugs than engraving pens. Didn't see that coming...


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## designer (Mar 18, 2014)

Tim you sure did take a lot of the work out of this for me.  Thank you!

I have found a few other brands as well and I am getting the impression there are basically two levels of this type of equipment.  The lower priced units that all seem to be close to the same and the Epilog at the higher end.  Now to decide which way to go.  Either way, I will still have to explain the expense to my fiancee.  Maybe I will bribe her with a crystal dream catcher.

Thanks everyone for all the help on this.


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## TimS124 (Mar 19, 2014)

Allan,

It's probably worth finding a way to get a demo of the software that comes with the Full Spectrum….hopefully, it's easier to use than CorelDraw/Epilog….if it's not, you'd maybe have an easier time deciding which way to go.

Good luck whichever model you end up with.


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## TimS124 (Mar 19, 2014)

Pen-Archer said:


> Do you guys use a flat fixture or a rotary pen mount?



I haven't engraved pens yet but have done a variety of other (larger) round objects.  I use a rotary engraver.

One of the local maker spaces near me (Sawdust Shop) uses a simple fixed tray for pen engraving…one line of text is said to work fine though I'd want to test on a couple dowels/scraps the same diameter of whatever pen I was considering engraving before putting the real thing under the laser.


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## Sylvanite (Mar 19, 2014)

Many, but not all, of the chinese made laser engravers use a Leetro controller and the associated LaserCut software.  I have a Rabbit Laser HX6090 (60w) using LaserCut 5.0.  It doesn't integrate directly with the version of CorelDraw I have (only older versions), so I just export files in BMP or DXF format and import them into LaserCut.  BMP (raster) files can only be engraved.  DXF (vector) files can be either cut or engraved.  LaserCut gives me the option on a per-color basis.  Vectors must be closed in order to engrave, in which case they will be filled.

The desktop size machines typically do not have enough height to use a rotary attachment, which is why I bought the big one.  I can engrave a single line of text on most any style pen flat, but any text or image that wraps around the barrel at all needs to be rotated.  The original rotary attachment that I bought with the machine is crap, but the newer ones (I have two) are better.  For pens, I use the 3-jaw mini-chuck attachment with a pen mandrel - and engrave the barrel(s) before assembly.

I bought the laser in order to engrave pens, but I make more money selling trophies than pens.  Maintenance is not very difficult, but it is not for the mechanically declined.  It needs periodic cleaning, lubrication, and alignment.  I've had it professionally serviced once.  Otherwise, I've done all the troubleshooting and repair myself.  I've replaced the transformer and water chiller, and am on my 4th laser tube (which has to be soldered in).  If the price drops enough, I might upgrade to an air-cooled laser.  Otherwise, my next engraver will probably be an Epilog.

I hope that helps,
Eric


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## Steve Busey (Mar 19, 2014)

Keep your eyes open for used lasers, especially Epilogs. There are many cases of laser shops closing their doors, or upgrading equipment and clearing out the old ones.

But be careful about "sight unseen" bargains (ebay, Craigslist, et al - insist on seeing the laser in operation before buying). I managed to snag a 2007 model a couple years ago for less than half retail price, and have done one tube replacement. IMHO, Epilog really makes operation & service easy, but it does come at a premium price. 

Good luck!


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## designer (Mar 19, 2014)

I see a lot of Generation 3 or 4 and Gen 5 machines.  Is there a difference in the tube and controls or is this more of a revision level in design of the companies machines?


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## Rich L (Mar 19, 2014)

Presumably y'all are talking about CO2 lasers and not NdYAG, NdYVO4, or fiber lasers - different wavelength and different capabilities. Right?? CO2 has a definite problem with some metals.

Cheers,
Rich


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## TimS124 (Mar 19, 2014)

I would expect it's all (so far) been about CO2 lasers….which essentially dislike all metal.  They'll bleach out the color in anodized aluminum but won't actually cut the aluminum itself as far as I know (which often is not very far).


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## designer (Mar 22, 2014)

I sure hope it is the Co2 units.  The NdYAG are good for acne but none of my wood has that problem.  LOL  I am not looking at cutting metal anyways so the Co2 will do just fine for me.  The price should be lower too I assume.


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