# Is durg addiction a disease



## jack barnes (Aug 4, 2010)

A little back ground. A friend died of a overdose. I now have a few people pissed because I refused to attend any services for him. It seems that most of them think drug addiction is a disease. I think that is  BS. If a person decides to do drugs that is a choice not a disease.
The only reason this brothers me is because my wife thanks I'm wrong about this. What do you believe, Is it a disease or just a self inflicted addiction?

Jack


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## Smitty37 (Aug 4, 2010)

*disease*



jack barnes said:


> A little back ground. A friend died of a overdose. I now have a few people pissed because I refused to attend any services for him. It seems that most of them think drug addiction is a disease. I think that is BS. If a person decides to do drugs that is a choice not a disease.
> The only reason this brothers me is because my wife thanks I'm wrong about this. What do you believe, Is it a disease or just a self inflicted addiction?
> 
> Jack


 
I think I agree with you.  If drug addiction is a disease - in most instances it is a self inflicted disease.  I think calling it a disease is a way for people to shift responsibility away from the drug addict and blame something/someone else.

In some cases (not a lot in my opinion) the addiction stems from medications administered for a real affliction or injury.  In those cases I think it would be fair to call it something similar to a disease in that the addict probably had no control over the initial administration.


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## JerrySambrook (Aug 4, 2010)

Jack,
   I do not think drug addiction is a disease, and yes I quit drinking in 83 and drugs in 79
However, that being said, if he was a friend of yours, then you should have accepted him as a friend even with his faults. He died for a reason you find unacceptable, and that is ok, but he lived as well and did things with you that friends do, and that is why you go. to remeber the good you can about him
If he was just an acquaintance, that is a different story.


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## shawnmhill (Aug 4, 2010)

In my opinion it's a lack of self esteem and respect for themselves. There is no way in this world that you could get me to do something when I know it could lead to a miserable existence for myself or others. I realize I'm not Superman. So i know all it takes is once to screw your life up. The selfish part is that you are also ruining others lives. You can NEVER truly regain the trust that has been damaged to others. 

I will get off my soap box but NO I DO NOT consider it a disease. It's a choice!


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## leaycraft (Aug 4, 2010)

As a biologist and bio-medical researcher for over 30 years, perhaps I can offer a point  of view that may answer your question.

Many studies have shown that drugs  (from alcohol to cocaine to heroin to methamphetamine and yes tobacco and marijuana) act on different portions of the brain/central nervous system.  When these substances interact with the brain chemicals , multiple thing happen.  This can range from impairing or altering perceptions; altering conciousness and  in many cases causing a physical dependency  upon the drug.  For some of these drugs a single use can be domonstrated to cause major changes in the brain.  

Your question is not simple to answer- Yes on one hand the initial choice to use the drug is under their control, outside influences prevent people from always using good judgement.  Once the usage begins, it becomes a problem that has to be managed medically and psychlogically.  It is a disease and has to be treated like one - mental problems are a disease requiring treatment.  Drug substance abuse is also a disease.  I know many people have  a problem viewing it as such (in some cases I do as well)- BUT-  many people are physically, emotionally and chemically dependent and they need help to help themselves.

Feel  free to contact me for more information.  

john


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## intillzah (Aug 4, 2010)

I think I need to leave this one alone...


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## Ligget (Aug 4, 2010)

I think they have a choice, take drugs or not take drugs, a sad loss my friend!


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## Smitty37 (Aug 4, 2010)

*drug abuse*



leaycraft said:


> As a biologist and bio-medical researcher for over 30 years, perhaps I can offer a point of view that may answer your question.
> 
> Many studies have shown that drugs (from alcohol to cocaine to heroin to methamphetamine and yes tobacco and marijuana) act on different portions of the brain/central nervous system. When these substances interact with the brain chemicals , multiple thing happen. This can range from impairing or altering perceptions; altering conciousness and in many cases causing a physical dependency upon the drug. For some of these drugs a single use can be domonstrated to cause major changes in the brain.
> 
> ...


 
It is true that someone addicted may well need medical and psychlogical help to overcome an addiction...In that sense, treatment may be perscribed in the same sense we perscribe treatment for anything else.  So it is treated like a disease...but (like my addiction to smoking) it is still self inflicted. Many adicts still choose not to seek help to overcome the addiction (I do).  If in the end I pass on due to a smoking related illness, and unless I get hit by a truck I probably will, then it is still my responsibility.  I'm not off the hook by someone saying "it was a disease that killed him"  We are in the end, responsible for our own actions.


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## ROOKIETURNER (Aug 4, 2010)

Not a disease. We live in a society that wants to blame everyone and everything for their choices. You choose to do drugs, you do not choose to get a disease.
 
I am not a bio medical researcher, so I cannot speak to the clinical evaluation of drug addiction, but I have worked with addicts for 6 years and it is anything but a disease. When you allow the addict to blame their addiction on anything but their own choice, rehabilitation does not work. They have to own their addiction and get on with recovery.
 
I employ a recovery heroin addict and he has to remind himself every day that he has the power to stay clean or get dirty.
 
Also, just because something altars your previous state, does not indicate a disease. Drugs altar your brain chemistry yes, but they do so to the point of dependency, not disease.


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## leaycraft (Aug 4, 2010)

I agree with all that has been said the choice to start is under the persons control but like any infection or life style choice - coronary artery disease it ends up as a disease .  What we all need is to realize that when people make wrong or poor choices we need to help the person overcome the choices they have made- get them the medical help they need then----; NA, AA and other groups and friends then help the person make good choices.  Ultimately the individual is responsible for the choices they make/made- treatment is not excusing them from the consequences- bad choices have bad outcomes.  We need to help them with treatment to show them how to make good choices and effect positive results-the tragedy is there are individuals who will refuse to accept responsibility and make changes--- the prisons and graveyards are unfortunately full of people who have'nt learned .  That too is a tragedy but for many it is/was their choice.


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## skywizzard (Aug 4, 2010)

I agree with Smitty, I don't think it is a disease, but should be considered a medical problem which requires treatment.  No different than being careless with the band saw and sustaining a cut which requires medical treatment. (That is not a disease.)   Only with drugs you are not just being careless with a saw but careless with your life.  I feel elevating addiction to the level of calling it a disease is self-serving to the medical profession and giving undue sympathy to the addict.  Treatment is necessary, but call it what it is, a self inflected condition, not a disease.  BTW, I am in the medical field, a pharmacist.  I see addiction every day.  Not just the meth head, but the little old lady down the street who got addicted because her Dr. basically told her it was o.k., not so much in words but actions.  Still, it is not a disease but a condition.  Eventually, probably within the next 5 years, addiction will legally be declared a disease, there is just too much influence for it not to happen.   For a brief summary regarding legislation and the CDC position see this link:

http://www.myaddiction.com/education/articles/addiction_disease.html

I also think that if he was you friend, you should have gone to the service.


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## glycerine (Aug 4, 2010)

I believe in free will.  Meaning that I believe will power (and help from God, I am a Christian, but I will not turn this into a religious debate) can overcome any "addictions" and that something like that is not a disease.
As far as attending the funeral, that was your decision and not anyone elses.  No one should be upset with you for not attending.  You did what you felt led to do.  Some people cannot attend funerals because it's just too hard.  Maybe you didn't go because you were upset with him for overdosing.  It's ok to be angry at him.  You are grieving a loss and you need to deal with it in a way that is healthy for YOU!


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## SDB777 (Aug 4, 2010)

I would attend the funeral of a friend.

I wouldn't be there to remind everyone that he made poor choices.

I wouldn't tolerate others telling me that said individual had a "disease".

I would go to the funeral and say goodbye....




Scott (a friend is a friend......) B


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## dgscott (Aug 4, 2010)

As a mental health professional, I hesitate to weigh in on what may be little more than opinions that are resistant to change. However, I would say that the definition of "disease" assumed in the previous posts is somewhat limited. It sounds as though some of the respondents are assuming that "disease" is restricted to physical anomaly or dysfunction. Believe me, there are plenty of diseases that plague the mind and leave the body in tip-top condition. You can find a pretty exhaustive list of them in a chunky volume referred to universally as the DSM-IV. 

Do people start indulging in self-destructive behaviors of their own volition? Of course. The question any clinician would ask is "Why?" What drives an individual to seek out an altered mental and/or physical state? It's not because everything is peachy, believe me. Is there a physical (and perhaps even a genetic) predisposition to dependence in some people? That's been my experience, although the jury is still out on the genetic piece. 

I spend my days (pretty long ones) trying to help people get out of things like addiction. I try to do it with compassion and without judgment. After all, when I leave my office, I rush home to support my own obsession with pen making. 

"Sure," you may say, "but it's not self destructive!" Really? Do you all have a dust collection system? 

Whether you define addiction (to drugs, alcohol, food, tobacco, sex, exercise, or the NFL) as disease or personal failure, I hope you approach anyone who isn't everything they're supposed to be (and I think we all fit somewhere on that expansive spectrum) with compassion.

Not preaching, not judging anyone else, just practiced in trying to patch together broken lives.

Doug


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## wolftat (Aug 4, 2010)

Jack, I'm with you on this one. He had the choice to take it or to not take it. I had a little brother that made the choice to take drugs, drink too much, and steal from friends and family, he is dead in my eyes and is not allowed to come around anywhere near me, most of my family agrees with this too, he made the decision to do what he did and he has to deal with the fallout of that choice.

This is of course just my opinion and I have the right to have it and I have made the choice to do what I do.


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## sdemars (Aug 4, 2010)

*I'm confused . . .*



jack barnes said:


> A little back ground. A friend died of a overdose. I now have a few people pissed because I refused to attend any services for him. It seems that most of them think drug addiction is a disease. I think that is  BS. If a person decides to do drugs that is a choice not a disease.
> The only reason this brothers me is because my wife thanks I'm wrong about this. What do you believe, Is it a disease or just a self inflicted addiction?
> 
> Jack



I'm confused. 

If you felt this strongly about his lifestyle, why did you befriend him in the first place?

Steve

P.S. If you drink while you are typing you may find yourself misspelling simple four letter words, like "DRUG".


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## drGeek (Aug 4, 2010)

Jack,
I'm sorry about your friend...


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## EBorraga (Aug 4, 2010)

I guess none of you guys have ever been addicted to Dr. prescribed pain killers!! If you had you would think differently. I've done plenty of drugs in my life, ranging from Pot, Coke, Acid, and some others and I'm only 33. It was by choice that I did most of these. But I never got addicted to any of them. I had some of the most severe kidney pain you've ever felt. If anyone has ever passed a kidney stone, times that by 10, that's the pain I'm talking about. That's why I started taking pain pills.
What started out as my choice, quickly became a disease I couldn't overcome on my own. If it wasn't for a true friend, I'd still be on them.

For you not to attend the funeral of a friend, is a burden that you'll carry with you for the rest of your life. I'm not preaching here, I just wish you guys could see both sides of the road before you make your decision.


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## wolftat (Aug 4, 2010)

I went so far as to pay for my brothers rehab and then let him stay at my house afterwards to help him get back on his feet, he thanked me by robbing my house and selling a bunch of my stuff. I saw both sides of the road and he showed it to me. Now I know better.


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## RAdams (Aug 4, 2010)

I was about to post almost word for word what Ernie posted. 


I am 35 years old. I am the son of a Ex-Marine, Vietnam Veteran dad and a stripper mom. I was drinking screwdrivers and beer at 11 or 12 yrs old, WITH my parents. I started smoking weed when i was 12. My dad used weed, Opium, Meth tabs, valium, dilota (SP), and alcohol to ease the memories of killing people. My mom is just a junkie. She is around 55 years old, spends most of her days in bed, and only gets up if she has to. She is in serious danger of losing both of her legs due to no circulation from YEARS of shooting Cocain into her legs. She was in the hospital having surgery to put a stint in her leg and i found a "rig" in her apartment. 

My parents did so much drugs, for so long, when i was a kid and my teeth came in, they had no natural enamel. They rotted out of my head as fast as they grew in. When my "adult" teeth came, it wasn't much better. The ylasted through Junior High school, and then started going south. Now i am 35 and wear Dentures. 

I have been through NA, AA, Alanon, Alateen, S.T.A.R. (drug intervention classes), Drug counseling, and probably 5 or 6 other programs. I grew up in the world of drugs, and drug users. 

It is a choice to START, But alot of times it starts innocently. A bad sickness or injury. A "routine" that includes consistent drug or alcohol use (weekly beer or joint with the buddies while playing video games), or some other similar scenario. 

For an addict that is using, the high is the most important thing in the world. In my opinion, I don't know if it is a sickness or not, But i do know that you just missed your only opportunity to say goodbye to someone you called a friend. In 20 years, I am afraid you will regret this decision.


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## RAdams (Aug 4, 2010)

wolftat said:


> I went so far as to pay for my brothers rehab and then let him stay at my house afterwards to help him get back on his feet, he thanked me by robbing my house and selling a bunch of my stuff. I saw both sides of the road and he showed it to me. Now I know better.


 


I would shut this person out of my life also! But on a different note, You can love your brother, and not like what he does. You can also love your brother from a different county, town, state, or at least household... Meaning you can love him and let him know that you will be there to help him if he really wants it, but dont open yourself to such disappointment. When he calls you for help, take him straight to the rehab and drop him at the door. The rest is on him. 

I have family that i feel this way about. If they called me for help, the most they would get is some words of encouragement and a ride to the hospital.

Our anger, no matter how major, is temporary. Death is permanent.


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## EBorraga (Aug 4, 2010)

Neil, this as a very touchy situation we tread on here. Maybe my case is a little different from a lot of the others. I've never stolen anything, and I'll never trust anyone who does. I never had to steal to support my habit, I had insurance that did that and doctors who kept prescribing them. Probably should of never said a damn word on this whole thread, cause it's gonna **** someone off.


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## wolftat (Aug 4, 2010)

It's not going to **** me off. We all have our flaws and we all have to choose how we are going to deal with them. What happened between me and my brother is a lot more involved than what is written here. I made the choice to not drink anymore about 6 and a half years ago, it wasn't due to a problem it was due to me choosing to stop wasting my money on it. I just feel that there is a big difference between someone taking a prescribed drug and someone choosing to shoot up for fun.
Once again, this is just my opinion and is basically meaningless to anyone except me. I don't hold anything against anyone unless they have done me or mine wrong, and then I don't let go easily. That's just how I was brought up.


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## PenMan1 (Aug 4, 2010)

Is alcoholism a disease? Sex addiction? Chronic lying? Sexual abuse? Smoking? Domestic abuse? Obesity? Other social malfunctions?

According to the AMA, they are ALL diseases and studies have shown that some of these, perhaps most of these can be traced to heredity (progeny of abusers, become abusers, etc).

Perhaps we should treat these as PREVENTABLE diseases and deal with them accordingly? Until we CHANGE the way society views these abnormalities, we can not change these behaviors and outcomes.

I AM NOT A FAN OF BARACK OBAMA, but one thing I agree with him on (perhaps, the only thing) is that we must change our views on obesity. Fat guys and smokers may not be "smoking weed" in my back yard, but they are killing me with increased insurance premiums.

Just my opinion.....I could be wrong


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## EBorraga (Aug 4, 2010)

Disclaimer:​(This is my interpretation only. Others may view this in a different light, but this is the way I see it.)

I know a little something about diseases, as I have Polycystics, which I was diagnosed with when I was 8. A disease in my view is something beyond your control, that may or may not be fixed with some serious help. It might be drugs, alchohol, fast food, soap operas, or even IAP. But whatever it is, it's a disease that will take all your willpower and help from others to overcome this.

I also wonder if people that wear seatbelts will complain that their insurance rates are going up because of the people who don't wear seatbelts. What about people who ride motorcycles without a helmet, which isn't against the law in Kentucky. But not wearing your seatbelt is.


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## sdemars (Aug 4, 2010)

*Just my opinion.....I could be wrong*



PenMan1 said:


> Fat guys and smokers may not be "smoking weed" in my back yard, but they are killing me with increased insurance premiums.
> 
> Just my opinion.....I could be wrong



So in your mind, FAT GUYS ARE THE BIGGEST PROBLEM . . 

The insurance industry tells us everyday, help us decrease OUR RISK & we will DECREASE YOUR PREMIUMS. That's a never ending lie that exist in home, auto & health insurance.

Only sheep believe it to be true . . . 

Just my opinion.....I could be wrong


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## RAdams (Aug 5, 2010)

Increased Insurance premiums.... For some, even in America, that is a dream!


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## aggromere (Aug 5, 2010)

This is one of those threads that is destined for removal by the moderator.

You were wrong not to go to the funeral.  I think your post is an effort to rationalize your decision, looking for confirmation you did the right thing.  You are looking because by now you know you were wrong and there is no way to undo your decision to not attend the funeral.

It's one thing to pontificate over theoretical issues, like is drug addiction a disease.  What's that got to do with friendship in real life?  Where do you draw the line?

Also, with your belief system, how did you end up with a friend that was a drug addict?  I guess to you he wasn't worth having as a friend.  If you didn't know he had a drug problem, how good of a friend were you?

Also, what about the bible thing of the first guy without sins throw the first stone.  I think refusing to attend the funeral of a friend is a big, big stone.


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## HSTurning (Aug 5, 2010)

*JMO and take it at the*

Skipping the services is a personal choice.  I tend to not got to many.  I grieve my own way. 

Addiction is a personal choice that can get out of hand.  Some people are more likely to become addicts if it runs in the family.  I have know many friends and family that have become addicts.  I have be robbed by a few.  I choose to walk away from them if they dont seek help.  I have not had a drink in over 5 years because it was out of hand.  I just had enough and quit.  We live in a time that everyone should know the possibilties if they choose to try or use any mind altering substance.  I say this having known people that have past away and some in prison.


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## Rifleman1776 (Aug 5, 2010)

I disagree that addiction is a disease. Starting and continuing is strictly voluntary.
OROH, you were wrong in not having a forgiving attitude and for not attending the funeral.


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## glycerine (Aug 5, 2010)

aggromere said:


> This is one of those threads that is destined for removal by the moderator.
> 
> You were wrong not to go to the funeral. I think your post is an effort to rationalize your decision, looking for confirmation you did the right thing. You are looking because by now you know you were wrong and there is no way to undo your decision to not attend the funeral.
> 
> ...


 
How can you say someone is wrong for not attending a friends funeral services?  Am I wrong because I ate a pancake for breakfast instead of a bowl of cereal?  A funeral is nothing but a ceremony, for people to attend so they can have closure, or "say goodbye", or "pay their last respects" or whatever.  If Jack did not want to attend his friend's funeral, then so be it.  There's no wrong decision in this case.  Whatever decision Jack made was the RIGHT DECISION FOR HIM and that's allt hat matters right now.

As far as having a friend who was addicted to drugs.  We don't know the whole story.  Maybe Jack knew, maybe he didn't.  But I know that people who have serious problems can be very good at hiding them.  No matter how good of a friend you are, you may never know EVERYTHING about someone.

And casting stones doesn't really apply here.  Jack's friend is dead.  If Jack's friend had come to him while he was alive and said "hey Jack, I have a drug problem, can you please help me overcome it?" and Jack ridiculed him and shunned him, that might be casting stones.  The "casting stones" story in the bible is about being hypocritical.  I don't think Jack is being hypocritical, but rather he is upset with his friend for doing what he did to himself.  Jack is not saying that he is sinless...  

Anger can be a part of the grieving process.


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## glycerine (Aug 5, 2010)

Rifleman1776 said:


> I disagree that addiction is a disease. Starting and continuing is strictly voluntary.
> OROH, you were wrong in not having a forgiving attitude and for not attending the funeral.


 
I think Jack will forgive his friend in time.  But with a drug overdose, I'm sure it all happened suddenly and Jack is probably not to the point emotionally where he can forgive his friend yet.  
Time heals all wounds.


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## elody21 (Aug 5, 2010)

Drug addiction is not a disease but like some others have said it affects a person not only physically but mentally. Even if the drug is completely out of your system peoples mind can still have a hold of it. Like drinking or smoking it becomes a parasite that never really goes away.
There is scientific proof that some people have genetic factors that will make a person more likely to become addicted to anything,drugs, alcohol,smoking., so in that way one could consider it a disease of sorts.
If you have a father or other family member there is more of a chance you can fall into this. I am not making excuses at all for your friend
 Yes a person has to make the choice to start. Sometimes it has a hold of you before you can realize it.
I am SO sorry that you are in so much pain. You really cared about this friend and are grieving terribly. My heart goes out for you. somehow you have to learn how to forgive him for being so weak. I takes time I have been where you are and being angry only will hurt you more.
I am sorry if this sounds like a sermon. It just hit close to home for me.
Bringing it to this forum is a good thing. There a so many caring people here.
Alice


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## TellicoTurning (Aug 5, 2010)

Funerals aren't for the dead anyway... mostly they are for the living.  I don't see a right or wrong in whether you attend the funeral... as many have said, grieving is a personal/private thing... I have passed on attending many funerals, some of whom were close relatives... I wasn't upset about how they died or anything like that, but had other reasons for not attending... as long as you say your goodbye's and attain closure, being at the service will be immaterial.


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## Smitty37 (Aug 5, 2010)

*60's*



dgscott said:


> As a mental health professional, I hesitate to weigh in on what may be little more than opinions that are resistant to change. However, I would say that the definition of "disease" assumed in the previous posts is somewhat limited. It sounds as though some of the respondents are assuming that "disease" is restricted to physical anomaly or dysfunction. Believe me, there are plenty of diseases that plague the mind and leave the body in tip-top condition. You can find a pretty exhaustive list of them in a chunky volume referred to universally as the DSM-IV.
> 
> Do people start indulging in self-destructive behaviors of their own volition? Of course. The question any clinician would ask is "Why?" What drives an individual to seek out an altered mental and/or physical state? It's not because everything is peachy, believe me. Is there a physical (and perhaps even a genetic) predisposition to dependence in some people? That's been my experience, although the jury is still out on the genetic piece.
> 
> ...


 
I lived through the 60's "if it feels good..do it" era and I believe that the "Why" is often "Because it feels good".  I know I do things because they feel good and I'm not in need of mental help.  America has more and more adopted the idea that people are not responsible for their own actions and I think we are certainly not the better for that.


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## Smitty37 (Aug 5, 2010)

*You don't know*



PenMan1 said:


> Is alcoholism a disease? Sex addiction? Chronic lying? Sexual abuse? Smoking? Domestic abuse? Obesity? Other social malfunctions?
> 
> According to the AMA, they are ALL diseases and studies have shown that some of these, perhaps most of these can be traced to heredity (progeny of abusers, become abusers, etc).
> 
> ...


 
You are wrong...first...smokers pay a higher price for health insurance than you do. even though the total lifetime medical costs for smokers is lower than that of non-smokers.  How can that be?  Easy, half of the healthcare cost for typical people occur in the last six months of their life, the exceptions are those who die suddenly at a younger age....more smokers die suddenly at a younger age and avoid those costs.  

Obesity is a problem but even more serious in my opinion is lack of fitness,  I would have a lot more confidence in the health of an obese person who is fit than an more healthy built person who is not fit.  In fact, much of our obeseness is caused because we don't stay fit.

But that being said....in the 1940's people walked more, worked harder, ate less, were a lot fitter and a lot thinner than today but suffered more heart attacks and had a shorter adult life span ( expected life span at turning 21) by about 13 years than in 2003 or so (I think - the info was at the SS website when the debate was going on about Social Security during the Clinton years).


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## Smitty37 (Aug 5, 2010)

*Don't go to funerals*

I have put a couple of posts here but I never mentioned anything about attending the services.  That was because except for close family members I do not attend either viewings, funerals or memorial services.  The reason I attend when I do go to one is for the family, not for the deceased.  I probably have happy memories of the deceased and that is how I want to remember them.

That being said.  I would not stay away because I didn't approve of the deceased life style.  The family (which is who the service is really for) has still suffered a loss and deserve our sympathy.


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## Parson (Aug 5, 2010)

So much of the rebadging of drug, alcohol and even sexual abuse has been termed a "disease" so that insurance companies will cover the treatment in a facility or pay for the counseling required to help the person see the "why" behind the "what" of the dependency on the chemical or harmful activity.


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## IPD_Mrs (Aug 5, 2010)

leaycraft said:


> Once the usage begins, it becomes a problem that has to be managed medically and psychlogically. It is a disease and has to be treated like one - mental problems are a disease requiring treatment. Drug substance abuse is also a disease. I know many people have a problem viewing it as such (in some cases I do as well)- BUT- many people are physically, emotionally and chemically dependent and they need help to help themselves.
> john


 

I work in this field (psychiatric) supervising 10 individuals and a program that specializes in working with persons with Chronic and persistent mental illness, including dual diagnosis of substance abuses. (I have been in this line of work for 17 years.)  I can tell you that this IS a disease, there are diagnostic codes for a variety of different illnesses dealing with substance abuse and dependence.  John is quite right when he calls it such.  You or you or you may have trouble viewing it as such, you may loose trust in a friend or family member who uses drugs and does things you don't approve of - but then so do family members and friends who have someone they love suffering from schizophrenia or bipolar disorder, this makes it no less a disease.  Just because someone gets cancer and we don't like it - it doesn't stop that from being a disease (it just happens to be a more socially accepted disease.)   Sometimes people are incapable of "making a choice" and it isn't even because a doctor prescribes a pain pill.  Imagine if you were schizophrenic and had voices telling you all day that you should do this or that ... at some point you would do it ... or maybe you would do it to try to self medicate and take away the pain you felt because you didn't know how to get help for the condition you were experiencing to begin with.
One point that John didn't make is that there is also frequently a genetic component to this disease.  People have often been termed to have an "addictive personality."  There are other personality disorders out there too folks - borderline personality disorder, narcisistic personality disorder etc. If you have a long history of substance abuse in your family - chances are this "disease" has been eating away at your family tree from inside your gene pool for a lot longer than you can probably trace without a lot of help from some serious ancestry work.
We work with these* human beings* in a variety of treatment programs and there are medications used to treat this disease - there is no one size fits all cure.  The same can be said for diabetes, cancer or other mental health issues.  Don't like the illness that's ok, but don't take it out on the person who is suffering - help them get treatment.  Promote awareness.


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## EBorraga (Aug 5, 2010)

Mike, I applaude you for a very well written answer to this debate. Most people who have never experienced this think you can just stop at anytime. If it was only that easy, there would never be addicts, just casual drug users.


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## bitshird (Aug 5, 2010)

TellicoTurning said:


> Funerals aren't for the dead anyway... mostly they are for the living.  I don't see a right or wrong in whether you attend the funeral... as many have said, grieving is a personal/private thing... I have passed on attending many funerals, some of whom were close relatives... I wasn't upset about how they died or anything like that, but had other reasons for not attending... as long as you say your goodbye's and attain closure, being at the service will be immaterial.



Chuck hit it square on Funerals are for the living, so they can grieve in a group, I think it goes back as far as Cromangin or Neanderthals, we have this thing about seeking solace in groups, whether they are family or groups of friends or people we barley know but meet at things like Funerals. I don't do well at funerals, and normally don't go to them, I find the feigned emotion unsettling. I can grieve just as much sitting in my little area I have a comfortable rock bench in amongst three huge Oak trees in the back of my field. 
As far as addiction being a disease, My dad tried to quit drinking for many years, but he didn't make it. I still pray for him though, he's been dead for 27 years. and I didn't attend his funeral but I have visited his grave, I think what ever is left of him still resides in me I hope. Like Ernie, I've done a lot of drugs. and fought off a serious addiction, and every once in a while I can feel that warmth in me after nearly 40 years of not using it. Addiction is a bummer!! but it can be beat, but you really can't beat a true friend no matter what.


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## IPD_Mrs (Aug 5, 2010)

Thanks for the compliment Ernie, but actually it was made by Linda my wife.  She is the Social Worker and I am her best client.


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## IPD_Mrs (Aug 5, 2010)

MLKWoodWorking said:


> Thanks for the compliment Ernie, but actually it was made by Linda my wife. She is the Social Worker and I am her best client.


 

Thanks Ernie.  LoL Darling, you are definitely the one I love


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## bbuis (Aug 5, 2010)

So what you are saying it is a choice for someone to have a herditary trait (disease)?  I for one know that addiction is not always a choice.  I have made some very bad decisions in my life and may have decided to try some things that I should have never tired.  But at the same time things that you guys can do once in a blue moon like drink a beer become an every day thing for me.  I know from my own experience in life this is a disease that is not always a choice.  Yes I chose to pick up a beer, I chose to smoke a joint, I chose to eat a pill.  I did not chose to get addicted to things that most people don't get addicted to.  That in itself is where the disease is.
If you consider schizophrenia a disease then why not addiction?  You can't help either one.  I know people that have tried meth one time and never tried it again.  On the other hand I know people that tried it that first time then stayed up for 2 weeks trying it more and more because their bodies react that way.  This is not a debate it was a simple question.  YES it is a disease.


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## IPD_Mrs (Aug 5, 2010)

glycerine said:


> Anger can be a part of the grieving process.


 

Anger IS a part of the grieving process.  Actually it is the second stage of grieving right after stage one - Denial.
It is followed by Bargaining, Depression and Acceptance.  People tend to cycle through these stages - revisiting one or two before getting through to acceptance and don't just go through them in a "straight line" as it would appear to be presented in training or education manuals at times.

Linda


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## IPD_Mrs (Aug 5, 2010)

Smitty37 said:


> You are wrong...first...smokers pay a higher price for health insurance than you do.
> 
> You are incorrect - At the company I work there is no differentiation between the cost of health care for smokers or non-smokers, so this is NOT always the case.
> 
> ...


 
LINDA


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## EBorraga (Aug 5, 2010)

MLKWoodWorking said:


> Thanks Ernie. LoL Darling, you are definitely the one I love


 

Well Linda, now I must come visit when I go to Chuck's house. I'll force him to tell me how to get there. I'll be coming up the weekend of the August 21st. Gonna do some turning and hopefully have lunch or breakfast with Johnnycnc on my way up.


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## PenMan1 (Aug 5, 2010)

Smitty37 said:


> You are wrong...first...smokers pay a higher price for health insurance than you do. even though the total lifetime medical costs for smokers is lower than that of non-smokers. How can that be? Easy, half of the healthcare cost for typical people occur in the last six months of their life, the exceptions are those who die suddenly at a younger age....more smokers die suddenly at a younger age and avoid those costs.


 
No, I'm not wrong. Most, if not all group insurance is just that GROUP coverage. "Group" insurance, specifically employee group insurance makes up nearly 80 percent of the health insurance market. This means that every individual in the group pays the same price for the same health care coverage. So, if you work for an employer who provides group insurance, the premiums are determined by the number of smokers in your group. Many employers, most in the South, no longer employ smokers because it drives the cost of employee benefits.

I know this because for the past 20 years, a big portion of my job as General Manager has been negotiating with providers for group insurance for my company. The more smokers in the group, the higher the group cost.

A group like Microsoft pays less than 1/3 the cost for health insurance as Bush Beer (comparable sized companies). This is simply because workers at Microsoft don't smoke and Budweiser employees, for the most part do.

I know this because I have been there and negotiated this.


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## IPD_Mrs (Aug 5, 2010)

EBorraga said:


> Well Linda, now I must come visit when I go to Chuck's house. I'll force him to tell me how to get there. I'll be coming up the weekend of the August 21st. Gonna do some turning and hopefully have lunch or breakfast with Johnnycnc on my way up.


 
Best to call first - that is the last weekend of our vacation and I don't know for sure when we are going to be getting back in from Illinois (visiting family - both those still with us and some ancestrial graves)

Chuck can certainly give you directions we see him from time to time and knows where our shop is (not sure if he knows where we live or not) but if you pm us we'll give you the phone number etc).  If you get the pleasure of meeting Johnnycnc you will have a blast - we just had a visit with him this past weekend and it was a joy - he's a great guy!

Linda


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## ROOKIETURNER (Aug 6, 2010)

aggromere said:


> Also, what about the bible thing of the first guy without sins throw the first stone. I think refusing to attend the funeral of a friend is a big, big stone.


 
I think that it unwise to quote scripture to make a point. You have to be very careful when doing so. The Bible is not something that you use to prove YOUR point.
 
Context is key. Context anchors a text and tells you what the author was trying to convey. The story is of a woman who was caught in the act of adultery. She, and not the man also caught in the act, was brought before Christ to be condemned. Christ was brought this woman, with a crowd holding stones. The Crowd was full of religious leaders. Christ wrote something on the ground and then told the crowd that the one that was without sin cast the first stone. He was saying that the one who is perfect should start the condemnation. No one was without sin, therefore no one could condemn the woman.
 
Here we have someone who chose not to go to a funeral. He did not stand up and say to the family that he deserved to die. He did not say that he was any better. He did not condemn the man, he just chose not to support him, by going to his funeral. No one said that they are better than anyone, we are just saying that drug addiction is not a disease.
 
Even if drug addiction is genetic, we have the power to choose to indulge the defect or not. What is next? Pedophilia? Do we say that the men who prey on little children have a disease that is out of their control? We should excuse their behavior, treat them and move on? No we should stand up and say right is right and wrong is wrong, own up to your mistakes and choices.
 
In any case you have to look at the logical end to the argument in order to assess whether or not it is solid. Saying that drug addiction is a disease leads us down a slippery slope.
 
We cannot say that because a book calls it a disease it is. How many medical books written a hundred, or fifty, heck even 10 years ago have mistaken conclusions? Let's let logical rule the day and not emotion. It feels good to not have to point the finger at someone and say you are at fault. We have a whole judicial system that loves to prey on "the devil made me do it" mentality.


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## chris63 (Aug 6, 2010)

*drug use*

as  a *funeral director *I  see this situation all to often. doesnt matter really how you  believe , the  service  you did not attend  was for the family that was left  to cope with this..   He  was not there , but  the family could have used your support,  this doesnt mean you agree or  understand..   but that you have a heart.. It could be someone in your immediate family someday..


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## ROOKIETURNER (Aug 6, 2010)

Come on...are you saying that he doesn't have a heart? That is going way too far. How dare you judge him in this way. Just because you disagree with his action, gives you no right to say he has no heart.

Come to the table with something a little more substantial and less emotional.


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## glycerine (Aug 6, 2010)

Let me ask this question.  Where do you draw the line between "hereditary/genetic trait" and "monkey see, monkey do"?  I do alot of things that my parents do or did because I grew up watching them do it.  Is that hereditary?  I'm originally from the south and use the word "ya'll".  Is that hereditary?  I say "please" and "thank you", is that hereditary?  I do drugs, is that hereditary?  It seems to me that it always the "bad/negative" habits that are blamed on genetics.  (And those are just examples, I'm not saying that I actually do drugs or say "ya'll")
Scientists/Doctors have ALOT of THEORIES that quickly become "truths" or fact.  It's like an astronomer that looks at a star and says "hey, that star is a billion years old"... really, I mean REALLY.  Were you around a billion years ago to see that star being created/formed/born?  Heck no, it's unprovable, but yet it has become a fact.
Just like this discussion will always be OPINIONS from many different people.  There's no way to "prove" anything, so there's no right or wrong answer on this one.


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## DCBluesman (Aug 6, 2010)

jack barnes said:


> What do you believe, Is it a disease or just a self inflicted addiction?
> 
> Jack


Why is it so difficult for folks to simply answer the question and defend their position, if they so desire, without generating an argument or an attack? This forum is going to hell over these constant rants and ravings.


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## IPD_Mrs (Aug 6, 2010)

DCBluesman said:


> Why is it so difficult for folks to simply answer the question and defend their position, if they so desire, without generating an argument or an attack? This forum is going to hell over these constant rants and ravings.


 

Just think of what a better place this would be if all the energy put into threads like this was put towards positive endevours such as YouthMinister and Curtis are doing for Cody.

Stuff like this belong in an elocution forum not a pen turning forum.

Mike


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## bitshird (Aug 6, 2010)

DCBluesman said:


> Why is it so difficult for folks to simply answer the question and defend their position, if they so desire, without generating an argument or an attack? This forum is going to hell over these constant rants and ravings.



Lou for some people it;s easier to attach, bitch and moan than simply answer a question wit a simple explanation, . 
I've known military men from all services except Coast /Guard that have had a monkey on their back so it happens there, ( i just don't know any one in the coast guard)
I've known several Dr.s that make House look like a clean cut guy. But it's easier to give a false impression of your own worthiness to judge  if you make others look weak or bad, just like it's easier to make your artistry look good to the untrained eye, by running down another artists work, (sadly it's a human thing that true FAMILY'S) don't engage in remember when the IAP was a Family???


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## Smitty37 (Aug 6, 2010)

*For some people*



MLKWoodWorking said:


> Anger IS a part of the grieving process. Actually it is the second stage of grieving right after stage one - Denial.
> It is followed by Bargaining, Depression and Acceptance. People tend to cycle through these stages - revisiting one or two before getting through to acceptance and don't just go through them in a "straight line" as it would appear to be presented in training or education manuals at times.
> 
> Linda


 
Anger is part of the grieving process for some people in some situations.  I grieve the loss of my dog, but I have never felt anger because of that loss...just not the kind of thing I get angry about....must be in my genes.


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## Smitty37 (Aug 6, 2010)

*I've skipped immediate family*



chris63 said:


> as a *funeral director *I see this situation all to often. doesnt matter really how you believe , the service you did not attend was for the family that was left to cope with this.. He was not there , but the family could have used your support, this doesnt mean you agree or understand.. but that you have a heart.. It could be someone in your immediate family someday..


 
I said before, I don't attend very many funerals....I was at my Dad's, and my Mom's.  I had 6 brothers and sisters...all deceased now,  Three of the funerals I did not attend.  Not because I don't have a heart...I had 4 brothers and three of my four sisters-in-law are still living.  I love all of them very much, stay in touch with all of them and visit them when I get a chance...I will not attend their funerals when they pass on and they know that.  

While they live there in nothing within my power that I won't do for them and they all know that too.


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## Craftdiggity (Aug 6, 2010)

Wow, two arguments within one thread.  This is my kind of thread.  

As to the disease versus choice issue, I am a former user of drugs as are my two brothers.  My habit ran into the thousands of dollars per week range and looking back, I don't know how I survived.  When the time came for me to lay it down, I made the choice and never looked back.  It was not easy and I struggled, but never touched any of that stuff again.  My brothers were more or less the same, but on a smaller scale.  I think they might have fallen off the wagon a time or two, but we are all clean now.  For me it has been 15 years.  I also quit smoking 6 years ago.  

Point blank, I do not believe that addiction is a disease.  Irrespective of how far along one is in his drug/alcohol habit, a choice is made every time a drink is taken, a line snorted, etc.  It is this choice that separates the two.  I feel that calling it a disease takes the personal responsibility out of the equation and makes the user feel like it is not their own fault.

As for whether or not you should have gone to the funeral, that is a personal decision.  I don't like to go to funerals at all.  My reason has nothing to do with how the person lived their life, but rather more to do with the fact that I think funerals are a waste of time and money.  It sounds like you would have gone to the funeral had your friend lived his life differently.  For that reason you should have gone anyway.  You don't have to approve of his lifestyle, but you can still grieve his death with his family.


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## Mickey (Aug 6, 2010)

My father was an alcoholic for many many years following WWII. He was always the first to say it was not a disease but that it was a curable addiction. He managed to shake the addiction several years before he died and made many efforts to right some of the wrong he had done.  I agree with what others are saying about it being a choice. The one positive of his alcoholism is that us five kids have been all our lives teetotalers.


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## nava1uni (Aug 6, 2010)

Sorry about the death of your friend.  I hope that the family and rest of the friends can support one another during this difficult period.  Hope you will feel comfortable about your choice.  I have many opinions, being an RN, about disease and drug addiction, but won't comment here.  I find that lately to state an opinion, even a fact, only elicits anger to the point of badgering and bad feelings.  Much more then I remember from past years.


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## glycerine (Aug 6, 2010)

DCBluesman said:


> Why is it so difficult for folks to simply answer the question and defend their position, if they so desire, without generating an argument or an attack? This forum is going to hell over these constant rants and ravings.


 
Well that's where it all starts. That's the basis of "debate" (or arguing, depending on how you look at it). But most people are curious and want to understand why someone feels a certain way and asks a question, then the other person answers, again, defending their position, and it goes on an on... Until the thread gets locked or deleted!


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