# New and Frustrated



## tylandr (Jan 27, 2008)

Hello All,

I'm new to this hobby and would like to think the money I just spent will be worth the frustration. Can somebody explain the following?

The bench top lathe came ready for a MT #2, but the mandrel in the starter kit is a # 1. Would I be better off buying a #2 MT mandrel or a sleeve that is #1 on the inside and #2 on the outside? 

When I tried to insert the mandrel on the blanks (with the tubes glued and dried 24hrs), one of the pens slid to easily and when I tried turning it, I couldn't get a gouge to take any off. The other pen would have had to have been forced down the mandrel. Either blank accepted the tubes during the glue up phase and I was sure to clean any excess glue during the squaring off process.

And finally, one pen that did turn as expected, blew out a large piece just as I was nearing the bushing. I thought I was making it only to lose it right at the end.

I know this is long and probably rambling, but I'd like to think I didn't make a mistake here. If you can help me, I will certainly appreciate it!

Thanks in advance.


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## rsk (Jan 27, 2008)

If you bought a starter set in a package with a lathe, I'd be on the phone with whomever you ordered it from.  You'll be better off getting the correct taper on the mandrel....the more stuff you add, the more room for inconsistency.

You could also use a drill chuck or a collet chuck to hold the mandrel.


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## cdcarter (Jan 27, 2008)

First off, welcome aboard. We've all been there, but yes, it's worth it.

I'll help where I can:

-Yes, buy a #2 morse taper mandrel. They're not expensive. I think you can get it at woodcraft for $12 or so.

-Sounds like you're using the wrong bushings for your mandrel. Several things, but that's my guess. If you bought your kits and bushings from Arizona Silhouette or Bear Tooth, it could be for a "B" mandrel, which is a little bigger than the ones you'd get from CSUSA, Woodturningz or Penn State. The correct bushings will hold the blank in place while also fitting snugly on the mandrel. If you had "B" bushings on an "A" mandrel, they'd slip all over the place and you wouldn't be able to do much.

-Those end-of-turning blowouts have happened to all of us. Only real answer is to use sharp tools and take light cuts using proper technique. Being a beginner, you may want to stick with a gouge or spindlemaster rather than trying to use a skew. You don't get as smooth a finish, but you just do more sanding, and sanding won't blow out your blank.

Hope this is helpful and that I understood your questions correctly. Again, welcome aboard.

And about that frustration thing ... yeah, uh, get used to it. When you get one fixed, you'll find another way to mess up. Just learn and press on and you'll be amazed how quickly you get good.

Carl



> _Originally posted by tylandr_
> 
> Hello All,
> 
> ...


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## rhahnfl (Jan 27, 2008)

First of all welcome to the group. Just about everything you asked can be found either watching the postings or reading through the library. This site has a great search engine and it's fairly easy to use. In answer to your question about the MT2 mount... If that's what your lathe has you are better off IMHO if you get an MT2 mandrel. I'm not a big fan of adapting except as a last resort. As for blowing out the turnings... make sure you have wicked sharp tools and take light cuts... when you get close to the finished size it's ok to use sandpaper to bring it home. Heck... it's your turning... there are no rules that say you can't do what ever works for you to get to the end result. Penn State Industries and Arizona Silhouette both have excellent videos to show you basic pen turning. You might want to check them out. Just don't give up. You'll get the hang of it...


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## johnnycnc (Jan 27, 2008)

Brian,
First of all,Welcome to the group!
I would recommend you not use a MT adapter sleeve;
every added piece is just another opportunity for runout.
Get the MT2 mandrel.
Sounds like glue in the tubes or a burr from trimming
the blanks is why your second pen would not go easily on the mandrel.
Plug the ends of tubes with play-doh,plumbers putty,wax,etc.
when you glue up,this should keep glue out.It's hard to get out!
and just clean wax,etc. out when done.It's easy to clean out.
If there is a burr,inside the brass tube,scrape it off
with a hobby knife.
I am curious,though.If you don't have the right mandrel,
how did you turn a blank?[?]
As for the blow-out,just hang in there,and practice on some
cheap wood.You could also check in the IAP library for
instructions,and there are some videos by Ed Davidson,
username "YoYoSpin" that show turning.Ed's videos of using
a skew are what made the skew "click" for me!
Turning technique is a learning curve,so be patient,
take light cuts,and keep your tools sharp.And Practice,
it will get better and easier,I promise!


> _Originally posted by tylandr_
> 
> Hello All,
> 
> ...


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## Cecilia (Jan 27, 2008)

Try to relax a little. I remember being "new and frustrated" too. I'm still not an expert, but I'm glad to be out of the wilderness. The one thing I can say for sure is that it will pay off in the long run.

First, call whoever sold you a lathe with a MT #2 and a starter kit with a MT #1 mandrel. Ask them to take back the mandrel and replace it with MT #2. I've never had a bad dealing with anyone in this industry, at least not yet. My point is, whoever you're dealing with *should* be willing to help. It's at least worth a shot to ask.

Are you saying the blank was spinning free of the barrel? Did you use CA? I just responded to someone else's post about using CA. I don't. I used to, but it didn't hold well enough for me. Early on, I was impatient with the drill, and sometimes the holes came out a little bigger than they should have been. There should be *very* little play between the barrel and the inner wall of the blank. If I didn't give the blank time to cool and back the drill out often enough to keep excess material from building up in the hole, the blank would sometimes crack. Other times, it would just leave a hole too big for the barrel. After too many times when the barrel separated from the blank, I started trying alternatives. Now I only use Gorilla Glue, nothing else. I'm told epoxy is great. I believe it, but, at least for now, I'm sticking with Gorilla Glue. (Get it? Sticking.)

I don't know why the other barrel wouldn't slide on the mandrel properly. I guess it's possible you warped the brass tube by using too much pressure with the barrel trimmer. But that's only a guess. I really don't know.

As for the last pen, it could be that your frustration and fatigue led you to dig in a little too deep, which may be what caused the blowout. Without knowing what material you were turning, I can't say any more.

I don't mean to pick on you, by the way. When I suggest that some of these problems may have been caused by human error, it's only because I did those very things myself. I've made a gazillion mistakes, and I'm still learning. Drilled too fast, drilled off center, used too much glue, used too little glue, used wrong kind of glue, too much pressure on barrel trimmer, didn't knock off corners, knocked off too much of corners, held tool at wrong angle, dug in too deep, ran lathe too fast, ran lathe too slow... You name it, I've either done it or will do it eventually. But it's soooo much fun once you get going! Stick around. It'll be worth it.

Hope this helps.


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## MarkHix (Jan 27, 2008)

Hang there!  The advice from the others is right on.  I started pens in July.  It was rocky at first.  If it will be a few days before you can replace the mandrel, practice between centers on scrap or check out the library for turning pens between centers.  We have all been frustrated at one time or another in this hobby but it gets better fast.  The skew was hard on me.  It took alot of practice wood to get comfortable with it.  Nobody saw my mistakes so it did not matter.  I still use a gouge to knock the corners off. 

Blowouts, glue in the tubes, cracks, overturning, underturning, glued fingers, papertowels glued to fingers, transmissions in too far, flying acrylic pieces, bushings in the wrong order....there are more mistakes that I have made but you get the idea. I posted a couple of pictures of early pens and got great tips on how to improve.  That is what this site is all about.


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## mwenman (Jan 27, 2008)

Welcome.

All I can do really at this point is echo what everyone else has said and follow their advice, read thru the library over and over and over until you think you can't read anymore and go at it again.  If you still don't understand something,don't hesitate to ask.

In regards to wondering if the money you just spent will be worth the frustration, I can guarantee that it will be and is money well spent. 

Since you had a blow out to begin with,  take a picture of it and save it for reference at where you are today, just starting out, then compare what you make a few months down the road.  you will be amazed at your progress.

Just practice safety, remove all watches, rings and all dangly things and keep those chisels sharp.

Best of luck to ya


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## jhs494 (Jan 27, 2008)

Welcome to the group!
From everything that I read above you have gotten great advice.
Please don't get frustrated. We have all been there. Wait till you glue the blank to your hand. or how about using grubber gloves, I have glued more rubber gloves to blanks than I care to admit. Well I am getting off subject. Sorry just trying to cheer you up.

Check out the videos in the libray section, go to the top of this page, it's there. There are some great turners who have taken their time to help all of us, and they have put videos in there for you.

Good luck and keep us posted.
I can't wait to see your first picture of a pen!


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## MrPukaShell (Jan 27, 2008)

Welcome and I agree with everyone above.  I am new too and one thing I did right when I purchased a lathe was to join a local woodturning club.  Everyone was very helpful and they only meet once a month.  One of the guys said I could stop by any time I wanted.  They will show you angles to use when removing wood and what tools to use.  I even received advice on gluing and other hints.  I also use YouTube for hints, you will be amazed on what you can find there.

  Have a great day,


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## dalemcginnis (Jan 27, 2008)

At  least you didn't do this:




[:I]

As for blowouts, I've had plenty especially with cocobolo. I started using a scraper to get the final sizing on blanks I tend to blow.
Don't give up you'll get it eventually. By the way, I've since replaced the stock live center with a 60 degree one, makes a BIG difference.


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## jedgerton (Jan 27, 2008)

You've gotten some great advice but I did want to add one thing.  For gluing up my tubes, I always use Gorilla glue or more recently Sumo glue.  Both are polyurethane glues and they hold extremely well.

I've had only a few blowouts out of at least 100 pens turned and cocobolo is one of my favorites.  I seal one end of my tubes with wax, use a que tip to spread the polyurethane glue inside the blank and then insert the tube (sealed end first) rotating it in the process.

Don't worry, the investment is worth it!  Folks on this site help me all the time (as lately as today in fact).

John


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## karlkuehn (Jan 27, 2008)

Hang in there, it gets way better. Follow the above advice and read a bunch of the tutorials here. This place is a gold mine of info.

Stay encouraged, and remember, eventually it'll all click and the addiction will all make sense! You'll be hooked like the rest of us. 

Patient drilling
Good glue
Start slow on the turning part
SHARP SHARP TOOLS!
Perseverance
Start with an easy finish, the Hut PPP stuff is wonderful to start with.
Don't pay attention to Ed and Cav. []


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## sparhawk (Jan 27, 2008)

Welcome to the addiction. Probably the best thing you did was sign up on the IAP.The people here will go out of there way to help you  and thier knowledge is endless.(at least as far as i can see.)The advice so far is sound but remember we can only help if we know all the details. What kind of wood,what kind of lathe, what tool were you using, what speed on the lathe, etc. ,etc.So keep practicing,read all the posts, check out the library and the videos and dont be afraid to ask.


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## Jarheaded (Jan 28, 2008)

Hi Brian,
Welcome and relax. I must have destroyed at least 1 or 2 pens in the begining(I mean dozen). Just check that everything is the right size and take light cuts and don't try to be perfect. You are just starting and the process is just like anything else, you won't start out as a pro, you have to put in your time and tragedies. Like Dale said, "At least you didn't do that". Dale, how did you do that? Forget it , I don't reallywant to know or I'll have to try it. Seriously, this is supposed to be fun, so relax and don't get upset at the ones thatdon't come out the way you wanted. Take each one as a learning experience. Dale, seriously, how did you do that? I have got to try that one.[}]
Good Luck,
 Johnnie


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## R2 (Jan 28, 2008)

Welcome to the frustration Brian. And you've already discovered why it is a frustration.[}]


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## dalemcginnis (Jan 28, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Jarheaded_
> 
> Hi Brian,
> Welcome and relax. I must have destroyed at least 1 or 2 pens in the begining(I mean dozen). Just check that everything is the right size and take light cuts and don't try to be perfect. You are just starting and the process is just like anything else, you won't start out as a pro, you have to put in your time and tragedies. Like Dale said, "At least you didn't do that". Dale, how did you do that? Forget it , I don't reallywant to know or I'll have to try it. Seriously, this is supposed to be fun, so relax and don't get upset at the ones thatdon't come out the way you wanted. Take each one as a learning experience. Dale, seriously, how did you do that? I have got to try that one.[}]
> ...


It's really quite simple. First blow out a piece of the blank when you first start trying to round it out. Then decide that since the blank is ruined you're going to save the tube by turning off the remaining wood. In your frustration decide you're going to do it quickly by jamming the skew into the edge of the existing blowout to create a bigger blow out and before you now it you too will have a one of a kind mandrel[}]
Looking back the good news was that was the only mandrel I had at the time so I had several days to think about my stupidity before I could do anything on the lathe again.


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## tylandr (Jan 29, 2008)

Thanks again to everyone for all the help here. I'm a bit overwhelmed at the response! One thing I needed to add was that, yes I was using CA and was able to turn one pen. The one pen spun around the mandrel (too loose to turn). Also, I found that the #1 mandrel will fit way back into the headstock. The only problem is that the bushings kept sliding back in there as well and the overall length of the mandrel was too short to hold both ends of the blank at the same time.

I'll skip the adapter sleeve and order the #2 mandrel.

I can't thank you all enough for the help and now that I know you're here, you can bet I'll be back. As for picking on me, you can't pet a dent in me - I've been married to same woman for 30 years

Thanks again.


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## IPD_Mrs (Jan 29, 2008)

> _Originally posted by tylandr_
> 
> As for picking on me, you can't pet a dent in me - I've been married to same woman for 30 years



Brian we may not be able to "pet" a dent in you but I bet we could put a dent in you!  

Mike


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## B727phixer (Jan 30, 2008)

Nice picture Dale, I have never seen that before!   Ouch[B)]


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## marionquill (Feb 1, 2008)

Just a quick note about the pen blank blowing out - if there isn't enough glue on the tube and and blank, it can easily blow out. Be sure to put plenty of expoy on the tube, insert it, twist in an out and then flip the blank over and do it again from the other side. Sounds like a silly thing to cause a blow out, but that'll do it before you can say #@$%$@%!!

Jason


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## JohnU (Feb 2, 2008)

If it makes you feel any better, I have a beautiful collection of pen blanks that almost turned out.  You'll get used to it after a while and buy extra brass tubes if you can find them.


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## scroller99 (Feb 2, 2008)

I wanted to add one little piece to this topic and that was the wood, If you started out with palm or wenge as a wood a blowout would not be a mistake, I have turned (blownout) a dozen red palm blanks and 1 pen to show for all the frustration! I think that starting with a softer wood will make it easier to get to bushing size and be a lot easier to practice with. good luck Howard


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## Jarheaded (Feb 2, 2008)

Dale, 
Thanks for the instructions on making the custom mandrel. I think that it is outside of my expertise to do that the way you did.I personally am more of the sledgehammer type of guy. But thanks anyways, you have a special touch that may take me longer to aquire.


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## RonInSpringTX (Feb 3, 2008)

Hi Brian & welcome from TX.  Take heed to all the above advice, it's good stuff!!! On the mandrel, try to get it exchanged or buy another.  On gluing up the tubes, don't put the glue inside the blank, get you a tapered dowel or something narrow enough to support the tube & spread the glue from the bottom to top(I use med CA & put it on the lower 2/3 of the tube, a good thick line) but you need to insert it fairly quickly, even though it's medium, it still can set faster than you think!! Use a twisting motion when you insert it into the blank.When you drill your blank if the "out"hole / the bottom is off of center more than the entry hole is, make the most "off-center" hole the end you place the tube in(this end is the flush one)That way, it's easier to trim the opposite end (more centered hole) with the barrel trimmer. I made the mistake when I first started of putting the glue on the inside of the blank,  uuuuuggghhhh!!! getting that crap out of the tubes was tough & time consuming!!! Finally I snapped!!!On the blow-out dunno, depends on the wood, etc. After experience, you should be able to tell how the wood is "working" when turning, or whether you need to "help" it near the end...by that I mean, if it looks like it may chip, then it very likely will. Get you some disposable glue/acid brushes & use some CA on that area of the blank. (don't get any on the bushings!!!!) Keep tools, sharp, sharp, sharp!!! If you don't have a wet/oil stone/s better get some!!! The angle is very important too!! Keep you tool rest about 
1/4 to 3/8 below the top of your blank. Knock off corners with gouge at higher speed, after rounded, switch the skew, lowering the rest at all times (moving it closer to the work, also)  Hey, this is just my 2 cents worth, well, maybe a nickel!!!   Most of these guys on here know alot more than me (& I hope they'll let me know if my post is inaccurate) I'm still looking for that perfect pen. (have came close, but who's to say what's perfect??) Anyways, once you get it down-pat your initial purchase of your lathe, etc. is NOTHING compared to what you're gonna spend on kits, blanks, tools, storage for the kits, glue, wax, & then tell us how your wife & you are getting along!!! (just make her a pen or perfume pen, she'll be fine!!!  lol)
later all,
Ronnie in Spring,TX


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## RonInSpringTX (Feb 3, 2008)

Brian, forgot to say, after rounding your blank & switching to the skew, lowering the tool rest,lower your speed. Also, the polyurethane glue is good, but it expands so much, I spent an hour having to clean it out of the recessed end. 
Later, & good luck!!!!

Ronnie


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## Daniel (Feb 3, 2008)

IF the MT #1 mandrel you have is the type that the mandrel can be removed from the taper. Order a #2 mandrel. take the taper off the #1 and you have two mandrels that will work in the #2 taper. you will be needing it sooner or later anyway.
Blow outs happen. it's a learning process and you sort of have to get through it. stick with low cost woods until you start getting consistantly good results. you still have the frustration of a top notch finish to get through as well.


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## MrPukaShell (Feb 3, 2008)

Hey Brian,

I am new to turning also bud have had great success.  So far no blow outs and no problems.  I got a video and a book and also did a lot of research on the net.  On "Youtube" I Found a guy that has 9 videos he made and they walk you through the steps of making a pen.  Here is the link

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2blY9sb6m0E

Everything from cutting your blank to applying a CA/BLO finish.  Easy to follow and provided a clear picture of what was going on.  Enjoy and if the link does not work do a "YouTube" search for   johnrob281 

Safe Turning............


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