# Is deceit the way of the future



## Texatdurango (Aug 6, 2012)

'Xcuse the rant but I've had a tough morning and am ticked off and am curious, does this crap happen to others?

A few weeks ago while on a trip my year old laptop just stopped sensing WIFI signals!  One morning in Baker, Oregon I was reading emails and reading posts here.  That afternoon in Leavenworth, Washington, nothing I could do would allow the laptop see the RV parks WIFI signal, luckily I carried my new I-pad with me and used it for the remainder of the trip.

This morning I decided to call Gateway tech support to see what was wrong and what, if anything, I could do to fix the laptop.

I Googled "Gateway tech support phone number" and up popped several links, a few of which clearly looked "third party" repair places but one looked 100% Gateway so I called them.

They answered with the typical heavy India accent and when I asked them if this was Gateway tech support they replied YES so we started our conversation.  They even asked for my serial number to see if I was still under warranty coverage.

After 20 minutes of being on hold then trying different things he informed me that this was a software issue, not covered under the 1 year warranty and I would need to give them a credit card number to pay for the repair charge, which he ESTIMATED might be as little as $75 but COULD be higher depending on how long it took to repair the "corrupted software" condition.

A few months ago I suffered unrelated "software issues" and Gateway had me return the laptop for free repair which turned out to be a faulty RAM stick.  When I asked them why I was paying now he FINALLY informed me that they were an authorized Gateway repair facility and had nothing really to do with Gateway. 

All together I had wasted almost 30 minutes with an outfit who in my book used deceit and unethical business practices to lure any unsuspecting people into their little.

I finally found the record of my previous repair and called THAT number and within 5 minutes the lady told me to go into recovery/re-install/drivers and reinstall the Intel wifi driver listed and all is well now so GOOD for the REAL Gateway support.

I guess what still has me upset is the fact that there has got to be thousands or tens of thousands of outfits just like this one all over the world using the internet to rip off people left and right and it seems to be getting worse and in this day and age ethics, morals, scruples, honesty and integrity are being quickly replaced by deceit, dishonesty, lying and unethical practices to make a quick buck at any cost!

Well, I don't feel much better now but at least it's off my chest!


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## Timebandit (Aug 6, 2012)

Ouch!!! That sucks... Glad you didnt fall for it and got it worked out in the end. I hate dealing with people on the phone like that.


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## seamus7227 (Aug 6, 2012)

it could also be referred to as the "end of times". These types of things are only going to get worse. I sure can relate to how you feel. I have had the same issues with HP


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## dbledsoe (Aug 6, 2012)

I have serious concerns about the long-term viability of the internet. As useful as it is, the downside seems to be overpowering the usefulness. I don't think there are more crooks, thieves and charlatans now than there were before, but now every thief has access to millions of targets that they would not have been able to reach before, and every target (you and me) is exposed to many, many more crooks than we were before.
I get probably 50-75 e-mails every day that are pure junk at best, and attempted robbery at worst. Now if someone wants me to read their e-mails, they have to call me and tell me they are coming.
Pitiful, any way you look at it.

Hope you feel better - now you have me thinking about it and I'm depressed!


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## IPD_Mr (Aug 6, 2012)

Yes the deceit is quite common place.  The worst that I see is from phone solicitors that claim to be ATT or credit card processing companies claim to be your merchant services company. 

 I wish that business numbers could be placed on the no call registry.


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## PenMan1 (Aug 6, 2012)

Perhaps one of the biggest frauds out there is a company called United States Pantented Trademark office. This for profit company searches the USPTO's database for recent trademark and Patent filings. Then they send the holder of the patent or trademark an "official looking" letter that suggests that there is an error with the filing.

Their "fees" are exactly the same as the fee for registering a trademark. Unless you use magnifying glass, you cannot read the type hidden at the end that says that they are not affiliated with the U.S. Government and this is a sales solicitation .

THIS IS WRONG, and should be illegal.


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## BlackPearl (Aug 6, 2012)

I had to laugh, it is a good thing that your notebook had the problem not your Apple device. Apple's answer is usually, " That is a year old! Why don't you buy a new one?"

The Gateway name, hence Label, was bought out of bankruptcy by Tiger Direct.(I believe) Many companies in that field will send out quotes for the cheapest computer with the specifications that they want their new product to have, so their one line will have machines from many different manufacturer then there is no "Manufactures Service".


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## OKLAHOMAN (Aug 6, 2012)

George, it's not the way of the future it's become the way of today over the internet and phone. Sad to say but it's the truth we have to check, double check and than check again almost every thing we do not to get taken.


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## edstreet (Aug 6, 2012)

This is not a 'new' thing nor is it due to the internet.  What you experienced is a very common problem in the IT field and many other fields to.  The hardware company blames the software company and the software company blames the hardware company.  The sad truth is the customer is the one left in the middle often times clueless and not sure what to do.

Companies likes to reduce their liability by a well known psychological tactic called deflection. Most computer companies does this in to the home computer line but not so much the business line. Why not the business line?  Because businesses will bring in people like me who understands and works with both sides of the field and in most cases have the problem diagnosed before the phone call is made.

Many/most trouble shooting checks is difficult to impossible over the phone and instead of having their call centers spend hours on the phone chasing down problems they prefer to deflect them to the other group.


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## ctubbs (Aug 6, 2012)

The practice of deceit is not, sad to say, limited to the IT industry at all.  If you were to travel to your local Big Box store and purchase one of their Green and Yellow lawn devices, it most likely will actually be made by MTD, not the original Green and Yellow people.  This is not limited to just the Green and Yellow brand.  Many good brand names have licensed their name to MTD or other people to produce a product the original mfg did not produce or a knock off type device.  Always look under the hood and check who really made it.  You may be surprised! Oh, by the way, DAMHIKT
Charles


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## randyrls (Aug 6, 2012)

All too common in this day too! Whenever I search on Google I never click on the first links to appear, as usually they don't have the item you are looking for, just paid Google to put their name first.


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## 76winger (Aug 6, 2012)

Feeling you pain, I haven't been bitten by any scams yet, they do run rampant and it's very hard to tell real sites from fraud sites. And way to many fraudulent ones are what come up in Google/Yahoo/Bing searches before the legitmate sites you are looking for!. It's taught me to be judicious about keeping the paperwork that came with things I purchase so I can use the contact information on that documentation to get my started in the right direction. 

As Roy Said you have to check, check and check some more just to get a feeling that you have good information these days. I think it should also be a message to trust those you know (and trust) first, and scrutinize all other sources.


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## glycerine (Aug 6, 2012)

Yeah, I get sick of that kind of crap, but I haven't found anything that I can do about it yet.  I have several domain names registered and get mail all the time telling me my domain name will be expiring and I need to renew the registration.  Of course none of this mail is actually from the company I used to register those domains.  Same thing with automobile warranty junk mail.


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## Texatdurango (Aug 6, 2012)

76winger said:


> Feeling you pain, I haven't been bitten by any scams yet, they do run rampant and it's very hard to tell real sites from fraud sites. And way to many fraudulent ones are what come up in Google/Yahoo/Bing searches before the legitmate sites you are looking for!. *It's taught me to be judicious about keeping the paperwork that came with things I purchase so I can use the contact information* on that documentation to get my started in the right direction.
> 
> As Roy Said you have to check, check and check some more just to get a feeling that you have good information these days. I think it should also be a message to trust those you know (and trust) first, and scrutinize all other sources.


Oh, I'm with you there!  I too save every little scrap of paper when I buy something.  The PROBLEM is remembering where I put the papers. 

For years I had the cleanest desk in our cubicle city then when I got my own office, I had the cleanest most organized office and knew where everything was.  Now, even though I have plenty of file cabinet space at home, I just can't seem to get organized anymore.  I think it's the "nothing's that important anymore, let's go fishing" attitude! :biggrin:


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## IPD_Mr (Aug 6, 2012)

Texatdurango said:


> Now, even though I have plenty of file cabinet space at home, I just can't seem to get organized anymore.


 
I think Herbie is just messin with you when you are not looking.


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## nativewooder (Aug 6, 2012)

As long as you have a reasonable amount of knowledge about a product and are reasonably intelligent, you can usually avoid the obvious misrepresentations about who does what for whom.  But these shady-type businesses prey upon the millions in our society with very little education and no smarts to make millions of dollars in sales and profits every day.  Really sad!  Have run into this type of situation too many times!


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## OKLAHOMAN (Aug 6, 2012)

Barry, sorry but some very, very smart people have been taken, your blanket statement that people with little education no smarts is without merit.


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## TellicoTurning (Aug 6, 2012)

Texatdurango said:


> 76winger said:
> 
> 
> > Feeling you pain, I haven't been bitten by any scams yet, they do run rampant and it's very hard to tell real sites from fraud sites. And way to many fraudulent ones are what come up in Google/Yahoo/Bing searches before the legitmate sites you are looking for!. *It's taught me to be judicious about keeping the paperwork that came with things I purchase so I can use the contact information* on that documentation to get my started in the right direction.
> ...



Or you tell people what I use as my excuse.... I work under a system of organized chaos.... :biggrin:
Even when I was working, I hated to file... I would sometimes have as many as 3 months worth of files stacked on my desk waiting to file... I knew where to look for them, hence my "organized chaos" method of working.


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## Jjartwood (Aug 6, 2012)

The problem is weather something is morally right or legally right.
It is much easier to say "it's legal" than to look at yourself and admit that you are not doing the right thing.
No conscience, No accountability, and No shame, only double talk and theft on a scale never before seen in a civil society.
Really worked for The Romans didn't it?


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## tomas (Aug 6, 2012)

Why not just go to www.gateway.com, select United States, and the Contact Tech Support?  The scammers depend on people trying to find it through Google or some other search engine.

Tomas


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## Dave Turner (Aug 7, 2012)

It's interesting to hear other peoples ordeals, since I haven't really experienced many internet problems. Here are some steps I take to keep myself safe:

My email service provider allows multiple disposable addresses. Every time a site needs my email address, I make a new one specific for that site. I include the site name in the address. If I receive any spam, I can tell from the address where it originated. It's an easy matter to then delete that email address. If I'm particularly ambitious, I'll write to the company involved to let them know my address was compromised (either intentionally or unintentionally - I won't rush to judgement) and also let Yahoo know about it. I only get one or two spams a day now, and they get routed automatically to my spam folder.

I set my router to use OpenDNS as my domain name server (the free service) instead of the one provided by my internet provider. This seems to eliminate about 90% of the nasty stuff.

I have site safety indicators displayed in my search engine results by using one of the browser add-ons for this. I use WOT (Web of Trust), but McAfee's SiteAdvisor is another. I avoid the red circle sites.

I keep a skeptical mind. I know that a small number of bad apples can now reach an incredible number of potential victims.


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## CSue (Aug 7, 2012)

Unfortunatly, it seems to be "the way of the world" so much so that I was shocked the other day when a tech support guy said, _"you know, this (company) really won't be able to help you.  You probably should go to (another company). They will give you an honest estimate."_


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## plantman (Aug 7, 2012)

Good thing you didn't buy your PC from Best Buy!!!! I have the big T's latest, greatest, most expensive lap top. WiFi, 19 inch touch screen, largest hard drive you can get, no tower, carry it any place you want. Lots of $$$$s. Two months after I got it I could not get on the internet. Everything else worked fine. "Geek Squad" at Best Buy looked at  it. (3 times-3 different Geeks) They said they could not fix it. Although it is still under warranty, they can not replace it, nor can they send it back to the factory, or give me a refund. First it was an internet problem. Then it was a software problem. Last it was a virus, even though a paid for them to install the best anti-virus when I bought it. They don't guaranty the software, anti-virus, or the operating system that comes with the PCs they sell. I know enough about PCs to say there was nothing wrong with the software, there was no virus in the PC, and the problem was in the registery from microsoft. There only offer was to take the PC they "could not fix" and fix it at a cost of $400. Being thoughtful I asked how they were going to do this. There answer was to sell me an external hard drive, two 4.7 GB DVD-RW disks, copy my files to these disks, wipe out my PC, and reinstall Windows 7. This leaves me with a blank PC with no software installed other than Windows 7 and an external drive, with no guaranty it will work. Plus they want cash up front before they will touch it. I told him I could buy a new laptop for that amount. He offered to show me some. To cut this story shorter, I called Best Buy and talked to the operator from some other country, than asked for a supervisor, who said "you bought it, you own it, it's not there problem". I could however file a comlpaint, and someone from corporate headquaters wold call me within 72 hours "guaranted" That was March, I'm still waiting for the call. I brought my PC to my son who builds his own PCs. He wiped it out and installed Windows 7 at no cost. In the meantime I took his advice and went to Walmart and bought the least expensive PC that would do what I needed. There is a reason why Best Buy stock is so cheap. Glad to get this story out again. Sorry it took so long!! Jim S


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## PTsideshow (Aug 7, 2012)

Not limited to the internet, If you have had dealings with the social workers(case workers) in hospitals. They are the second worst lying, lowdown people breathing after our honest politico's.

My father has been in the hospital for about a month. He is 86 mom is 84,they are of the generation/mindset that Doctors/nurses and others in the medical field walk on water!

This women talked up this rehab center as a great place, one step above a regular nursing home. The doctors and other staff repeated that it was a great place.  My parents bought in to it, even when I told them that website photo's and description didn't match it's current location.

Just goes to show that, seeing is believing and a walk thou is a must, before you commit, even a short term stay.

And along the internet side, ASUS tech phone support sucks too and the problems all seem to be customer caused!   The first three listings in google are paid listings. But the others are just as bad, as they all are now reading the emails and giving search results for words in the text body of the emails.

Since I have started sending emails on the condition and location of my father. I have been flooded with spam and ads for nursing schools, med tech, pic a doctor etc. And that isn't even the government spying on us!

I think that it is more a people problem or mindset, as you can have a lying no good person in a store and a great knowledgeable helpful one working side by side. You have to shop the help in the stores today!
:clown:


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## OLDMAN5050 (Aug 7, 2012)

I traded a Nissan truck because I got tired of the calls from an outsorce outfit located in India. Pakistan and so on ever week wanting me to take the truck to a dealer for service.. 2 emails later I was informed that was the cheapest way for them to correspond. I could not hardly understand anything they were saying.. I told the Nissan people in the emails people in this country needed jobs and I would trade the next time  I got a call.......... I am a happy owner of a GMC


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## Texatdurango (Aug 7, 2012)

tomas said:


> *Why not just go to www.gateway.com, select United States, and the Contact Tech Support?*  The scammers depend on people trying to find it through Google or some other search engine.
> 
> Tomas



*Sounds easy doesn't it*........ until you actually try to gt a number from that website!

In order to see a number for tech support, you need to enter your serial number in a box to verify that your laptop is still under warranty,* Sounds easy doesn't it.  *Easy until you enter your serial number only to be informed that the serial number you entered is not a valid Gateway serial number and you are thrown back to the entry screen, so you try again being careful to enter the exact text in the proper upper or lower case, only to be told once again that it's not a good number!

I'm usually a patient person but after 15 or 20 minutes clicking around this site I gave up and that's when I googled for a tech support number.


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## Texatdurango (Aug 7, 2012)

nativewooder said:


> As long as you have a reasonable amount of knowledge about a product and are reasonably intelligent, you can usually avoid the obvious misrepresentations about who does what for whom.  But these shady-type businesses prey upon the millions in our society with very little education and no smarts to make millions of dollars in sales and profits every day.  Really sad!  Have run into this type of situation too many times!



*Man, this is just not my week on the forum! * First, in another thread a few days ago another member trashes my pens and my blanks because I do things differently than he does, now since I started this thread, I assume that I am the one being referred to as not having a reasonable amount of knowledge, having very little education and no smarts!

Makes one want to just stop posting all together!


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## Dalecamino (Aug 7, 2012)

George, I've been following this issue, but haven't posted until now. Mainly because, I agree with you. Having had the same experience in the past, I share your sentiments. I hope to continue learning things from your invaluable posts. Thank you.


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## PTsideshow (Aug 7, 2012)

Texatdurango said:


> In order to see a number for tech support, you need to enter your serial number in a box to verify that your laptop is still under warranty,* Sounds easy doesn't it.  *Easy until you enter your serial number only to be informed that the serial number you entered is not a valid Gateway serial number and you are thrown back to the entry screen, so you try again being careful to enter the exact text in the proper upper or lower case, only to be told once again that it's not a good number!



Asus has sort of the same thing. In addition they tell you to register your tablet dock/keyboard only in following the steps. You will find that they DON"T have a designation for the dock in the drop down menus. The non English speaking as a first language told me that they don't require that you register the dock. 
Somebody else that works in the US for Asus answered that you file in the serial number and then pick the tablet model number you have that was on a Asus forum. Then after that and finally getting to the page with the number, I am a (VIP member) then spending 29 minutes on the phone, with the above person he tells me the problem is the customers (my) fault.

Hope you stick around and continue to post as I have learned a lot from you.
:clown:


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## GaryMGg (Aug 7, 2012)

George,
There has always been and will always be dishonest folk and deceitful practices.
The internet makes it faster and easier for those bad actors to reach more targets more quickly.
However, without the 'net, 99+% of us would never know of one another.
---insert shrugs shoulders here---
The bad and the good.


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## SteveJ (Aug 7, 2012)

George, don't take it personally.  I've read lots of your posts and appreciate them.  Your experience with tech support isn't all that unusual.  And it isn't because people are _stupid_ that they get taken by such firms, it is because they are _trusting_.  Although some would say it is stupid to be trusting, at the end of the day our society depends upon us being able to trust one another.


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## tomas (Aug 7, 2012)

Texatdurango said:


> tomas said:
> 
> 
> > *Why not just go to www.gateway.com, select United States, and the Contact Tech Support?* The scammers depend on people trying to find it through Google or some other search engine.
> ...


 
I am not, and never have been, a fan of Gateway. I have not been to their web site in at least 10 years.  However, when I clicked on the Support > Contact Support option the next screen has a box labeled Technical Support and inside the box are two options: Ask A Question and Contact Support By Phone.  Under the second option you are invited to verify your eligibility for free phone support. If you are not eligible for free phone support, you are referred to Acer for paid support. 

Gateway, like many other OEM's have severely cut back on free support.  Having spent over 20 years building, selling, and servicing PC's, I can understand this decision.  Providing tech support is very labor intensive.  Why do we assume we are entitled to unlimited free support for a product? I once had a customer who had purchased a PC from me 3 years earlier call me at 7:30 AM Christmas morning wanting me to help him install something that he bought off of CompUSA's AS-IS table. Then he was unhappy when I told him to call during normal business hours and make an appointment.

How many times will we as pen turners repair/replace a pen that someone has neglected, abused, or just mishandled?

I am not trying to bust your chops or anything else. I thought it was a valid question to ask. In a perfect world, everyone would be honest and upfront, but we know that won't happen.  

Tomas


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## plantman (Aug 7, 2012)

George: How many of Bernie Madoff's clients do thing were stupid or uneducated. These are some of the smartest people and organizations in the world. They were fooled by one of the best, and the worst, of all times. It's like one of the candidates on the news the other day, when asked a question, saying " you will have to trust me on this one". Right!!!!!  The only one you can truly trust is yourself, and I even question him sometimes.    Jim S


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## Smitty37 (Aug 8, 2012)

dbledsoe said:


> I have serious concerns about the long-term viability of the internet. As useful as it is, the downside seems to be overpowering the usefulness. I don't think there are more crooks, thieves and charlatans now than there were before, but now every thief has access to millions of targets that they would not have been able to reach before, and every target (you and me) is exposed to many, many more crooks than we were before.
> I get probably 50-75 e-mails every day that are pure junk at best, and attempted robbery at worst. Now if someone wants me to read their e-mails, they have to call me and tell me they are coming.
> Pitiful, any way you look at it.
> 
> Hope you feel better - now you have me thinking about it and I'm depressed!


I think I would disagree with that.  Opportunity tends to create "businesses" if there is a lot of opportunity to make a buck by opening coffee shops, there will be more coffee shops opened.  In the same way if there is a lot of opportunity to make a buck by using subterfuge on the internet there will be a lot of people who go into that business.  In short the opportunity exists to commit profitable crimes at little risk of getting caught - that is going to attract a lot of people to crime who otherwise would not be there.


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## dbledsoe (Aug 8, 2012)

Smitty37 said:


> dbledsoe said:
> 
> 
> > I have serious concerns about the long-term viability of the internet. As useful as it is, the downside seems to be overpowering the usefulness. I don't think there are more crooks, thieves and charlatans now than there were before, but now every thief has access to millions of targets that they would not have been able to reach before, and every target (you and me) is exposed to many, many more crooks than we were before.
> ...




Yeah, but............
The internet did not make them crooked, they were already that way. The internet made it easier for the lazier ones to prey on us instead of just having the more ambitious ones do it.


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## Smitty37 (Aug 8, 2012)

dbledsoe said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > dbledsoe said:
> ...


  You are right - I didn't say the internet "made" them crooked.  The internet creates the opportunity to make being crooked profitable so a number of people will decide to be crooks.  Without the opportunity they wouldn't be. 

Someone asked Bob Dillinger why he robbed banks and his reply was "because that's where the money is".  Well now the money is on the internet instead of in banks.


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## BlackPearl (Aug 8, 2012)

OLDMAN5050 said:


> I traded a Nissan truck because I got tired of the calls from an outsorce outfit located in India. Pakistan and so on ever week wanting me to take the truck to a dealer for service.. 2 emails later I was informed that was the cheapest way for them to correspond. I could not hardly understand anything they were saying.. I told the Nissan people in the emails people in this country needed jobs and I would trade the next time  I got a call.......... I am a happy owner of a GMC




Your Nissan had more parts made in the USA than your GMC does.  

Both the Frontier and the Titan are made in Tenn. the GMC assembles them in the us from parts imported from around the world.


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## Smitty37 (Aug 8, 2012)

BlackPearl said:


> OLDMAN5050 said:
> 
> 
> > I traded a Nissan truck because I got tired of the calls from an outsorce outfit located in India. Pakistan and so on ever week wanting me to take the truck to a dealer for service.. 2 emails later I was informed that was the cheapest way for them to correspond. I could not hardly understand anything they were saying.. I told the Nissan people in the emails people in this country needed jobs and I would trade the next time I got a call.......... I am a happy owner of a GMC
> ...


  I don't think there is a single car now that is made 100% in the USA....


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## PTsideshow (Aug 8, 2012)

Smitty37 said:


> I don't think there is a single car now that is made 100% in the USA....



I believe that they had a news report that the cars with the most American components, was either the Honda or Toyota (80-89%) the American brand that had the most parts made in the USA was around 70-72% Guess all them widgets made over there add up to an American Rice burner.
Besides Ford just spent a chunk of the money they made here buying a Chinese heavy truck company. Or the maximum amount allowed by the Chinese government they said on the 6 o clock news tonight.
:clown:


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## PeetyInMich (Aug 8, 2012)

You are correct on that PTsideshow, my wife who works at a local bank gets daily grief for her Marysville Ohio built Accord, but the local rednecks shopping at the Wallmart give me the thumbs up for the Hermasillo Mexico built Fusion that I drive (disclaimer:  I work for a Ford, Honda, (Fiat(federal govt))Chrysler, (federal govt) GM, Nissan, AM General, Toyota, PACCAR, ETC... )supplier


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## Smitty37 (Aug 8, 2012)

I drive a Chevy Colorado pickup (2007 before GM stood for Government Motors) but my guess is that it was made of more foreign made than American made parts and subassemblies.  Even 20 years ago when I was still in industry we were going to Hong Kong and Singapore to have things built to go into US War Planes.  I once told a friend that we have to make something besides hamburgers in the USA - we can't all make a living selling each other foreign made goods.  Things just won't work that way.


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