# CA/BLO- A Different Question??



## Randy_ (Jul 4, 2007)

Tons has been written on this subject and I have read quite a bit of it.  However, I don't recall ever seeing an answer to this question?  

I'm thinking about experimenting with this finish to see if I like it or not.  I would rather not buy a big bottle of the stuff and have it go to waste if it turns out I don't care for the finish or the process.  Anyone have an idea of how much CA is required to finish a pen?  Or perhaps a better way to ask the question is how many pens could I reasonably expect to finish with a one ounce bottle of CA?  

Thanks.


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## tas2181 (Jul 4, 2007)

Randy,
If used only for finishing I expect you could get somewhere between 10 to 20 pens out of a 1 ounce bottle of glue. Never really counted as I use it for gluing in the tubes and various other things. 

Tom


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## GaryMGg (Jul 4, 2007)

Randy,

As a neophyte, I bought a 2 oz bottle and used it for gluing in tubes, finishing, and other things. Plus, I had some waste when I was really new to this. I got about 45-50 pens from that amount, so I'd say 15-25 if there's no wasted CA. That's a SWAG.
Gary


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## wdcav1952 (Jul 4, 2007)

Also, the CA is great for sealing small cuts and abrasions.  I have used it for that purpose for years with great success. [8D]


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## mdburn_em (Jul 4, 2007)

I absolutely would have to have thin and thick.  Thin for sealing and thick for finishing and tubes.
Even if I don't do a CA finish, I still use the thin for sealing and hardening/stabilizing soft woods and antler marrow.


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## soundman (Jul 4, 2007)

If you want to "have a go" why not try with the cheap little tubes from the supermarket....I know a couple of blokes who use nothing else.
I know it isnt the same quality and it comes in thin only... but hell they are cheap.
I know a lot of you blokes use thick or meduim for finishing ... but I use thin and that works for me.

try it on a cheap pen and blank... if you like the idea... you can buy the good stuff.

nothing to lose and you can get it at any supermarket.

cheers


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## Dario (Jul 4, 2007)

For finishing use the thick CA.  I think the supermarket version is marked "Gel" but not certain of that.

Just don't want you passing it up because it didn't work for the wrong reason.


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## GBusardo (Jul 4, 2007)

> _Originally posted by wdcav1952_
> <br />Also, the CA is great for sealing small cuts and abrasions.  I have used it for that purpose for years with great success. [8D]



I do this quite a bit also, the stuff really shines in the winter for those annoying split fingers. 
There are a couple of vendors links on this home page your can get super glue on the cheap. If you don't like it for a finish, you'll probably find dozens of uses. The stuff you get here is better than the stuf you get in HD and its way cheaper per ounce.


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## TellicoTurning (Jul 4, 2007)

Agree with everyone here... I buy the 2 oz bottles and usually last about 2 months with very regular usage.. I use it for everything.

and agree great for cuts and nicks.. when I had my emergency appendectomy a few years back, I didn't get stitches.. the doctor used super glue on about a 3 or 4 inch incision.


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## Randy_ (Jul 5, 2007)

> _Originally posted by soundman_
> <br />.....why not try with the cheap little tubes from the supermarket....try it on a cheap pen and blank...nothing to lose.....



Soundman:  That is exactly what I had in the back of my mind when I asked the question; but, didn't know if it was a realistic alternative.  Thanks.


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## BernieW (Jul 6, 2007)

Randy that is all I use. I buy a 4 tube package at Wal-Mart for a couple of bucks and it works as good as the expensive stuff at like Woodcraft. I also use the thick CA from there also. Have not had a problem yet.


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## JimGo (Jul 6, 2007)

Randy,
I think that, if you check Monty's prices, you'll find that you can get thick CA for about the same price as those little tubes, and he'll even include shipping.  I'm a big fan of the odorless medium CA for my CA finishes, and for gluing tubes into blanks, but that stuff is a lot more expensive than the traditional CA.


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## DKF (Jul 6, 2007)

A question while on the subject..Does BLO ever get old?


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## bob winegar (Jul 6, 2007)

I have to ask this question of those who recommend CA for cuts, abrasions, incisions, lacerations, etc.

Do you agree or disagree that CA fumes are toxic ?


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## DCBluesman (Jul 6, 2007)

Again, if you trust OSHA, the EPA and clinical studies over the past 40+ years, CA (cyanoacrylate) is NOT toxic.  Here are two abstracts on the topic.

Dermatol Clin. 2005 Apr;23(2):193-8. 

Cyanoacrylates for skin closure.

Eaglstein WH, Sullivan T.

Cyanoacrylates (CAs) were not widely adopted for medical use until recently because of lingering concerns regarding the initial tissue toxicities of the short-chain CAs. The medium-chain CAs, primarily butyl-cyanoacrylate, have been widely used in Europe and Canada for several decades and have gone a long way in dispelling any lingering concerns about tissue toxicity. The newer, longer chain CA, octyl-2-cyanoacrylate (2-OCA), now has been approved for multiple uses in the United States and has achieved widespread acceptance by the medical and lay communities. The current authors believe that this is probably only the beginning of the use of 2-OCA and other CAs in cutaneous medicine. This article discusses the use of CAs in their original cutaneous use as glues for the repair of lacerations and incisions and in their more recent use as dressings for the treatment of abrasions and wounds.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15837150&query_hl=1

J Surg Res. 2005 May 15;125(2):161-7.

Evaluation of an absorbable cyanoacrylate adhesive as a suture line sealant.

Ellman PI, Brett Reece T, Maxey TS, Tache-Leon C, Taylor JL, Spinosa DJ, Pineros-Fernandez AC, Rodeheaver GT, Kern JA.

BACKGROUND: Previous formulations of cyanoacrylate, though very effective, proved to have too high a tissue reactivity to be used internally. A novel cyanoacrylate compound with less tissue reactivity was recently developed. The objective of this study was to assess this novel cyanoacrylate compound for the use as vascular suture line sealant. MATERIALS AND METHODS: Twelve adult female sheep received a 6 mm PTFE interposition graft in each iliac artery, for a total of 24 grafts. Using oxidized cellulose (Surgicel) as a control, two formulations of a new cyanoacrylate compound (named "compound A" and "compound B") were assessed during this trial. Hemostatic efficiency was measured at the time of operation by the assessment of bleeding time and amount of blood loss. Long-term graft patency was assessed angiographically at 4, 6, and 18 months. Tissue reaction at 2 weeks, 1, 6, and 18 months was assessed grossly by vascular surgeons and microscopically by a blinded pathologist. RESULTS: Average time to hemostasis was 37.6, 50.6, and 219 s in group A, group B, and oxidized cellulose control groups, respectively (P&lt;or=0.001 for both compounds versus control). There were no significant differences between groups with regards to graft patency. Histopathology analysis demonstrated mild to moderate tissue reaction at 2 weeks and 1 month in the cyanoacrylate groups compared with controls at 1 month (ANOVA P=0.004). Mild tissue reaction was seen at 6 months and 18 months, with no significant differences between groups (ANOVA P=0.08, 0.62, respectively). CONCLUSIONS: The novel cyanoacrylate compound examined in this study is a highly effective suture line sealant with only mild tissue reactivity and no significant effects on graft patency when studied over an 18 month period.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15854669&query_hl=1

And, of course, there is a 2003 case and recommendations from the EPA. "Health Effects (acute toxicity, repeated-dose toxicity, genetic toxicity, and reproductive/developmental toxicity)
Adequate data are available for the acute and genetic toxicity endpoints for the purposes of the HPV Challenge Program. The chemical had been considered for reproductive and developmental toxicity, inhalation neurotoxicity, and carcinogenicity testing; however, as noted by the submitter, the National Toxicology Program (NTP) recommended no further testing for ethyl cyanoacrylate given its rapid polymerization in presence of water and the inability to generate a stable aerosol1. EPA agrees that no further testing is necessary."  http://www.epa.gov/HPV/pubs/summaries/ethycyan/c14202ct.pdf


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## RussFairfield (Jul 7, 2007)

How many drops are in an ounce of Medium CA glue? 

I use 7 to 10 drops per coat, and 3 coats per pen. That makes for somewhere between 20 and 30 drops per pen. 

There are something like 360 drops of medium CA glue per ounce. That means I should be getting somewhere between 12 and 18 pens per ounce.  

That sounds about right.


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## Randy_ (Jul 7, 2007)

> _Originally posted by bob winegar_
> <br />.....Do you agree or disagree that CA fumes are toxic ?


I have never seen it suggested that the fumes are toxic; but for many folks they are certainly a nasal irritant and some people with asthma have mentioned a need to take special precautions when using it.


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## soundman (Jul 7, 2007)

One effect that we should be aware of... as i understand,,, is that if CA is injested in significant ammounts it can cause the fluid within the eyes to go cloudy permanently causing blindness.
I don't have documented evidence... but I understand this is the reason for the 5mL limit on retail package size in this country.

additionaly I know several turners who have developed very bad reactions to CA exposure.... resulting in short term hospitalisation.

I think part of the problem and the fact that our experience may not tally with " scientific" doccumentation is that we are not using the product in the manner and for the purpose it was designed.

We use relatively large amounts and the product is not immediately confined within a joint.

As far as tisue toxisity whe used as a wound closure.. sorry cant comment, excet to say it could present a complication if that wound was closed in a "first aid" context and thet wound then needed to be opened for inspection later by a doctor at hospital or surgery.

 for example... deep cut to hand.... closed up with CA.... some time a little later the doctor wishes to open the wound to " properly clean" it or to check for tendon damage.
I do not think any of the first aid traners here would recomend the use of CA in a first aid context

I remember the trend here of laser sutureing of sergical wounds, my brother had a major wound closed this way one time... there were minor complications.... I not that it is not popular these days.
Will CA wound closure go the same way.

For my money I would be happier with a skilled surgen who does nice needle work. I have watched my GP stitch me up a couple of times and there seems to be a certain level of control and security about some nice needle work.

cheers


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## DCBluesman (Jul 7, 2007)

From the sounds of some of these arguments, it sounds like more than a few of you are not using a DC or air cleaner and do not vent to outside.  These are reasonable precautions with any chemical.  Nonetheless, I have a hard time accepting the apocryphal data over documented statistics, particularly when they come from multiple communities of interest.  FYI, I used CA for "chemical suturing" as a Medic in the very early 70's.  It had already been used in field hospitals for a number of years. Stopping a guy from bleeding to death was deemed to be a superior course of action to being so concerned about reopening him that he died in the field or on a gurney waiting for actual stitches.


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## soundman (Jul 7, 2007)

I would have to agree that it is a concern that lots of people don't use extraction with their lathe.
Mostly I have extraction running both when I turn & when I finish, with a spout very close to the work.
lots of people say this wood or that smells like X when you turn it....Oh realy never noticed it.... all the smell & dust gets sucked away.... same with CA fumes.

I would have to agree that CA used in an crisis emergency situation like combat first aid by trained people is a realistic option.
but use by untrained cililians close to proper medical care is an altogether different situation.


as for how much is used to finish a pen.
this depends on what method you use, I use the cottonbud method & I recon I would use about 6 to 8 drops to finish a pen... the first application would be about 2 drops the remainder would be about a drop each.
others who use the lathe running methods will proably use a lot more.
using my methood you should get 3 maybee 4 pens out of a 5mL tube....I must try a cheap tube sometime.
From what others say maybee 3 or 4 times as much for the other methods.
the problem is what ever applicator you use... the majority of the glue dispensed will remain in the applicator as waste.... hence I use a small applicator.
Others may give a mor accurate idea.

cheers


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## Randy_ (Jul 7, 2007)

> _Originally posted by RussFairfield_
> <br />.....There are something like <b>360 drops of medium CA glue per ounce.</b> That means I should be getting somewhere between 12 and 18 pens per ounce.....



That is an interesting statistic, Russ.  May I ask where/how you came upon it??  I took a peek at the definition of a "DROP" <b>here</b> and it turns out to be a somewhat variable unit.  For the purposes of the definition, I'm sure they use water as the standard which is much less viscous than medium CA; but they seem to be saying 500 dropsÂ± per ounce.  I'm not implying your figure is inaccurate, just that it is an obscure piece of information and  I'm wondering if there is a cool web site somewhere with lots of weird stuff or if you actually sat down and measured it for yourself.

Thanks.


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## wdcav1952 (Jul 7, 2007)

> _Originally posted by wdcav1952_
> <br />Also, the CA is great for sealing small cuts and abrasions.  I have used it for that purpose for years with great success. [8D]



Soundman, I am taking the liberty of quoting myself here since I started the sub-discussion on wound sealing.  Please note I specified small cuts and abrasions.  I do not seal up gaping wounds with CA.  As a dentist, when I am not wood-turning, I do not like open abrasions on my hands, even under my surgical gloves.  Therefore I seal them with CA.  I gave blood for many years (reached 25 gallons of donated blood products *self gloat [8D]*) and the finger stick always hurt when typing.  After I started sealing the finger stick wound with CA, it stopped being sensitive immediately.  Again, let me say, I use it for minor stuff.  If I see someone amputate a limb I promise not to CA it back on for them.

Randy, this has been an interesting discussion.  However, I checked Mannie's site, and you can order 1 ounce of thin CA for about $4.50 which includes shipping.  Order some and try it; that will likely answer your questions  better than all the discussion in the world.


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## RussFairfield (Jul 7, 2007)

I counted the number of drops to fill 1-level teaspoon.

I was curious because I have heard the argument many times that CA glue was too expensive to be used as a finish on a pen. I buy Hot Stuff in 4-ounce bottles, and that figures out to about 15-cents per pen. I don't consider that as being expensive.


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## Randy_ (Jul 7, 2007)

> _Originally posted by wdcav1952_
> <br />.....I checked Mannie's site, and you can order 1 ounce of thin CA for about $4.50 which includes shipping.  Order some and try it; that will likely answer your questions  better than all the discussion in the world.



Sounds like a good deal.  I will try it.  Thanks.


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## loglugger (Jul 7, 2007)

Randy, make shure you wax the mandrel and bushings a couple of times or it will stay on the mandrel. ( don't ask ) [:0]
Bob


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## soundman (Jul 8, 2007)

just making sure people had the right idea, using CA for "small cuts and abrasions" might be all fine & beaut,  but sure as eggs someone will get the wrong idea & take the idea "a little too seriously".
After all one person's idea of a small cut may be a lot different from another.

cheers


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## sparhawk (Jul 8, 2007)

help a newbie out. What is blo?


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## its_virgil (Jul 8, 2007)

Boiled Linseed Oil, which is used by painters as an additive to paint or by woodworkers and an oil finish. It isn't really boiled but is raw linseed oil to which other chemicals have been added to make the raw linseed oil dry and harden quicker, otherwise it would take raw linseed oil several weeks to fully cure and harden. google boiled linseed oil and yuou can find all of the scoop on boiled linseed oil.

Do a good turn daily!
Don


> _Originally posted by sparhawk_
> <br />help a newbie out. What is blo?


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## bkc (Jul 18, 2007)

> _Originally posted by loglugger_
> <br />Randy, make shure you wax the mandrel and bushings a couple of times or it will stay on the mandrel. ( don't ask ) [:0]
> Bob



I'm new to all this and want to try the CA/BLO finish, but what wax are you saying to put on the mandrel and bushings? I've hesitated trying it because I don't want to be gluing the pen blanks to the mandrel and bushings.


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## Randy_ (Jul 18, 2007)

This has turned out to be a very interesting thread.  I want to thank everyone again for their input.  I feel like I am a little smarter than when the thread first started.[]


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