# COA



## Rotor13 (Sep 18, 2019)

Is there a process for creating a certification of authenticity?


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## mark james (Sep 18, 2019)

Oh this could get ugly Jeff!  But I'll bite to start it off.

I suspect there are the ethical processes, and unethical processes.

My self, I have had only occasional experience with them.  A few years back I bought 3 "Presidential Wood" pen blanks with COA's ($50/each).  Did the COA's look impressive - certainly.  Did they come from the source of the wood, or the basement of the seller where his/her printer was situated - I have no idea. Additionally, did the Chestnut wood blank from "that" tree in "that" yard, planted by "that" president actually come from said location - I also have no idea.  In my garage right now I have about 15 Chestnut blanks that look just like the ones with the real/or fake COA's.  And keep in mind, Chestnut is not too impressive - it was the COA's that were of value.

Within the last 2-3 years (I'm being vague on purpose as I have no chains to rattle) I was chatting with a pen blank caster.  He was peddling blanks with "authentic ......, from ......, obtained by .......  Another penturner wanted some of them as they were very nice, looked cool, had a strong military theme which he said would sell well within his circle of customers.  AND, they had COA's direct from the source of the .....!
As the buyer was paying bucko bucks for the blanks, the seller said,  "Oh, I ran out of COA's, so I'll need to print another sheet and send them to you.   .  Now keep in mind, the material ...... was supposedly obtained from a location half-way around the world, in a severely restricted military zone.   Hmnnn.  I could be very wrong, but I suspect the mystery ...... can be obtained at Hobby Lobby!  But the COA's looked sweet!  (a local craft shop sells hand-made parchment that looks as if it is 500 years old - made nice pirate maps for my kids).

So:  _Is there a process for creating a certification of authenticity?  Honesty and verification._

So the question comes back to ethical or unethical.  ANYONE can make a COA.  The question is whether they are real or fake.   Without ironclad proof, I doubt it.  

Sorry for the gloomy rant, but the story above has bugged me for 3 years - I was appalled at what this caster was doing.  (And yes, he privately told me that it was all a scam!  He thought it was hilarious, but was selling them by the dozens).


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## jttheclockman (Sep 19, 2019)

Well I am going to agree with Mark on this topic. To me that is a piece of paper and that is all it is. Everyone of these blanks that people say are special and come from such and such tree or place or ship or plane I have sincere doubts unless you were actually there picking them. Same goes for the olive blanks from the Holy Land. Do not believe it for a minute. Now there will be people that get on here and and tell stories but to me in one ear and out the other. I will never believe them unless I see it picked up. Same goes for these baseball stadium seats blanks that make the rounds. Fakes in my eyes. Same for famouse baseball player bats and the list goes on and on and this has been one of those pet peeves of mine that I usually keep to myself but since a person with stature here voiced their opinion I thought I would spew too.

Now you do as you please and right or wrong is in your eyes only. Good luck.


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## Lucky2 (Sep 19, 2019)

If the document is certified by a lawyer or court, then I will believe the COA, otherwise, it's just a piece of paper to me. Plus, how does one know that the COA, belongs to that specific piece of wood? At least if a lawyer claims it is, and it turns out not to be what it was supposed to be. Then you have recourse, you can go after the lawyer for selling something that isn't what they claimed it o be. Now doing all of this would be an awful lot of work and bother. But if your name and rep are damaged, and people will no longer buy from you because they no longer trust you. You will want to be able to place the blame where it should be placed, and try to repair your reputation


Len


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## penicillin (Sep 19, 2019)

Consider the source. 

I buy Bethlehem olive and carob wood from the local Rockler store. I also ordered a one-pound box of Bethlehem olive wood from Penn State (PSI). All of them came with certificates from the original source. The certificates are small, business card size pieces of paper with no legal authority. I trust that Rockler and Penn State have done sufficient due diligence on my behalf to obtain their wood from reliable, authentic sources. I trust them that the certificates are authentic. I provide the certificate to accompany the pen when it is given to the recipient.

I also ordered ancient Irish Bog oak pen blanks from a mysterious seller here on PenTurners.org, and later bought a few more from that same seller on eBay when he no longer responded to queries here. The seller included a PDF file of a university report which dated the pen blanks to a precise range of dates. At the end of the report was a certificate, but it was a full sheet in size and suitable for a framing on a calibration lab wall, not as a gift to go with the pen. I have no absolute legal proof that the bog oak pen blanks are genuine or that they come from the same wood as the lab tests. but everything "rings true", down to the Irish postmarks on the envelopes.

I wanted gift card certificates for pens made from the bog oak but the full page lab certificate was not appropriate. I made my own certificates, which described the ancient bog oak and its age. My certificate design has a gold leafy border. I wrote the following text, which you are free to copy, modify, and use for your own purposes: 

"This pen was made with ancient bog oak from Ireland, a rare, limited resource. An acorn sprouted 6,500 years ago. It grew into a mighty oak. While it lived, humans were in the earliest stages of developing agriculture. After it died, the oak tree fell into a peat bog. Plants, moss, and swampy water covered the oak and preserved it, beginning the first stages of fossilization. Tannins disolved in the acidic water darkened the wood over the millennia. The wood in your pen was dated by matching the tree ring spacing with known, dated trees. Treasure it. It took 6,500 years to make!"

Below that, I included an image of a Claddagh, which is an Irish symbol showing two hands clasped around a heart, topped with a crown. Below the symbol, I wrote, "Lovingly Handcrafted by [me] and [spouse]"

I would be delighted to share a copy of my certificate, but despite my best efforts, I could not be 100% certain that the "free" Claddagh image I copied was truly license-free. So many aggregation sites lie about their sources. I did my best to assure myself, but do not feel comfortable posting the image here. So sorry, but you must search for "Claddagh" and find your own image. 

The people who receive my pens (they are gifts) have nothing to trust but my personal integrity. That's good enough for them, so it's good enough for me. Nobody asked about my certificate or its origins. 

It would be trivial to fake Bethlehem wood or ancient wood, but who would you be fooling? I could toast a few ordinary oak blanks on the grill and try to turn them into pens, but I would rather call them "grilled oak" and make an appropriate grilled oak certificate, maybe with an image of a steak to go with it (!!). "Penicillin grilled oak pens" would be much rarer and more desirable than ordinary ancient bog oak pens from everyone else, right? 

I have a strong sense of integrity. I see many people who have none. I wonder whether they believe their own thoughts? It would not surprise me to see fake pen blanks, complete with fake certificates of origin. It would be far more likely from the private party sales here than commercial mail-order/internet suppliers, but even the commercial sources may not check their suppliers very well. 

Consider the source before you buy.


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## chartle (Sep 19, 2019)

I call them "a story about where this piece of wood came from". 

Saw a post, not here, asking where someone could get Jack Daniels COAs for barrels he can get directly from the distillery, you know they cycle in and out I think 2 million a year! Some said print them yourself and one guy offed to sell him them in packs of 50 or 100. I asked if the COAs have a COA.  

I while back there was a major kerfuffle on the Facebook groups over "Goonies" blanks.


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## Kenny Durrant (Sep 19, 2019)

Very interesting comments. I've always sold or give a pen for what it is, A handmade crafted pen. The COA is just a piece of paper telling about the materials. I've used several sticks of the Bethlehem Olive Wood Blanks and being the tight wad I am I don't throw anything away I can use later. The BOW Blank for example, when I make a pen with it the person that gets the pen with the majority of the blank gets the original COA. When I use the scraps or leftover pieces I make copies of the BOA to give just to let them know what they're getting. No one has ever questioned the copy or any other COA asking if it was real or fake. I have friends that go to Israel and bring back wood for me without papers and I like it more because a friend hand carried it just for my use. The people that get pens made of that just get the story told by me and no COA and seem to be happier that some that get the pens with the COA. I also have a friend that was involved in building a large business office in the Dallas area. They had sinker logs that were recovered from a river that were submerged for 100 years. I got a picture of the plaque they posted on the wall telling the story about the wood and give it out when I use it for pens. I'm not using the name of the business to sell a pen, the name is not in the picture, I just want the person to know about the origin of the wood.   I've never put a lot of thought into this as being a legal document but looking a it again I can see the problems. Especially with the cost being involved. Let me ask this question. After building a pen with a COA Blank and keeping the scraps do the scrap pieces become "Just Wood"?


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## Kenny Durrant (Sep 19, 2019)

Another thought. If the COA's are going to be use as a legal documents then I would want them to be signed and stamped like one. Then the COA couldn't be copied and the left overs would become just wood.


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## BKelley (Sep 19, 2019)

I seriously doubt that the Bethlehem Olivewood pen blanks we buy come from trees grown in Bethlehem.  Yes the blanks come from Bethlehem, but what country did the tree grow in.  I suspect  the wood is shipped into Bethlehem from all over, sawn into pen blank and shipped to us FROM Bethlehem.  The wood is from Bethlehem, but what is the origin of that wood.  

Ben


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## wolf creek knives (Sep 19, 2019)

Very interesting comments and ideas on this post.  I'm working on a couple of projects right now that require COA's.  In one case I have a special piece of a window shutter that came from Hawaii.  I have tons of pictures of the shutter, a document that indicates which shutter it is and also a picture of the famous person with the shutter behind him.  The person who traded the shutter to me told me he would make COA's and sign and date them.  Can I trust this person, yes as everything he said I can verify.  So in this case the COA would be accurate in my thought process.
The second project I'll start this winter is a collection of WWII Battleship teak decking, that I will turn into pens, that I've collected over the last two years.  My most recent find was from the USS North Carolina and the COA is a brass plate for mounting on the piece of wood they sent me.  I'm a bit concerned as the COA is a brass plate, not a written card.  I'm thinking I can duplicate the exact plate for the excess wood that was sent to me off the North Carolina as verification that it actually came off the ship.  I'd be interested in knowing what others think of the second project, the Battleship.  Is copying the original brass plate a true COA?


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## wolf creek knives (Sep 19, 2019)

mark james said:


> Oh this could get ugly Jeff!  But I'll bite to start it off.
> 
> I suspect there are the ethical processes, and unethical processes.
> 
> ...



I don't know Mark.  Is it right to expose this person and what they're are doing?  If I were the person who dropped a ton of money on a "special" blank only to find out later that the blank was a fake, well I'll let it go to your imagination.  But, in this case think about the person who bought the blank and then resold it and the person who bought it found out it was a fake.  The blame wouldn't shift to the blank maker, it would shift to the person who sold or gave away the pen.  The turners reputation could be ruined in one felled swoop.  Enticing someone to buy something from you because it's perceived as a relic or something of special value when in fact it isn't, just isn't right.  I would probably expose the individual knowing that if they did it once, they'll probably do it again and I would make sure I never bought another item from them again.


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## jttheclockman (Sep 19, 2019)

wolf creek knives said:


> Very interesting comments and ideas on this post.  I'm working on a couple of projects right now that require COA's.  In one case I have a special piece of a window shutter that came from Hawaii.  I have tons of pictures of the shutter, a document that indicates which shutter it is and also a picture of the famous person with the shutter behind him.  The person who traded the shutter to me told me he would make COA's and sign and date them.  Can I trust this person, yes as everything he said I can verify.  So in this case the COA would be accurate in my thought process.
> The second project I'll start this winter is a collection of WWII Battleship teak decking, that I will turn into pens, that I've collected over the last two years.  My most recent find was from the USS North Carolina and the COA is a brass plate for mounting on the piece of wood they sent me.  I'm a bit concerned as the COA is a brass plate, not a written card.  I'm thinking I can duplicate the exact plate for the excess wood that was sent to me off the North Carolina as verification that it actually came off the ship.  I'd be interested in knowing what others think of the second project, the Battleship.  Is copying the original brass plate a true COA?



As I mentioned any of these ship deck woods or plane woods from WWII or any of that is worth what you think it is. Now you have a friend sending wood from shutters with photos and all but again write something on a piece of paper means what??  To me nothing. Have it notorized with actual markings from the object that can be identified then I would agree. This concept can be carried over to memorabilia stuff and signatures and things. You are trusting the word or piece of paper with the statement. I guess I am just a skeptic.


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## wolf creek knives (Sep 19, 2019)

jttheclockman said:


> As I mentioned any of these ship deck woods or plane woods from WWII or any of that is worth what you think it is. Now you have a friend sending wood from shutters with photos and all but again write something on a piece of paper means what??  To me nothing. Have it notorized with actual markings from the object that can be identified then I would agree. This concept can be carried over to memorabilia stuff and signatures and things. You are trusting the word or piece of paper with the statement. I guess I am just a skeptic.



I agree with you John, but in the case of the Battleships, with one exclusion, these pieces all came from the ships museums and memorials and the pens will never be sold as this is a personal collection.  What happens when I croak I can't control but I, at that time, won't care.  As for the shutter material, I have the whole shutter and I've been able to identify the shutter through pictures I took when* I *was in Hawaii.  I can match it up perfectly so I know for sure it's the same shutter.  Had this person just sent me scraps of wood I wouldn't be so trusting.  As for notarizing, that's probably not a bad idea and is something I'll have to look into.  Good suggestion!


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## MRDucks2 (Sep 19, 2019)

Gang, unless there is a governing body with sole control over the release of material, a COA is only as good as the reputation of the seller and as such, has only esoteric value to those who want them. 

I ended up with a huge assortment of whiskey barrel blanks. As I sorted them through my grading process, I noticed ink stamped letters and unique staining/discoloration of the wood. 

I separated these and began a tedious process of piecing them back together to see how identifiable they were. To my surprise, there were a limited amount that you could clearly identify as coming from specific distilleries. I offered these up as blanks from barrels of specific whiskey from specific distilleries as identifiable by the photos I had. 

About half the buyers wanted to know if I could provide a COA for the wood. Obviously, I could. I know the cooper facility they came from and pieces the wood together myself. I made it clear that the COA was mine and how I arrived at it. 

Half the buyers didn’t care. 

One person asked if I was creating the COAs myself or had a real COA from the distillery. So, I dug a little deeper. There are no distilleries who offer COAs for pen blanks. 

You can get COAs for a few barrels. You can get licensed to use a distillery or brand name. While possible, it is hugely more difficult to be licensed to use a distillery logo or other specific trademark (think Maker’s Mark wax seal). 

Tom has about as close to best case as you can get in which the source of his wood is authenticated by an entity that specifically knows where the wood came from and he is the original purchaser. 

At the end of the day, the story of the wood or authenticating the origin of the wood as you know it adds enchantment to the piece, sentimental value if given as a gift (chestnut from my childhood barn given to my family members) and/or may give you an edge in selling an item with the story vs no story. 

But, the COA itself is valueless unless someone is willing to attribute value to it. In fact, I remember a notary in my home county who was a township trustee and charged 25 cents to notarize stuff. You had to point to where he needed to sign and put his stamp because his eyesight had become so poor he couldn’t be sure. 

Understand what the COA is certifying. I can provide COAs certifying a blank is from a used white oak barrel that was used to age spirits from a distillery in the Louisville, KY area. It makes some folks happy, has no value to anyone who doesn’t appreciate that part of the country. Is absolutely true, and absolutely useless. It comes at no additional cost than the same blank/pen with the COA and charge exactly was the COA is worth. 

Do I own items with COAs? Yes. I believe they were mostly with items purchased in silent auctions for charities or fund raisers. The value wasn’t in the certification. Do I own stuff of specific origin or autographed by those I personally know signed them, sure do. No COA. More value to me than those items that do. 


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## mark james (Sep 19, 2019)

I just look at a box of Olivewood blanks I bought several years ago.  There are 2 official postal stamps from Israel, and there are COA's.  I doubt the blanks were bought in Turkey/other mediterrean countries, shipped to Israel to be shipped out.  Again, there is a confidence level for each example.


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## chartle (Sep 19, 2019)

MRDucks2 said:


> One person asked if I was creating the COAs myself or had a real COA from the distillery. So, I dug a little deeper. There are no distilleries who offer COAs for pen blanks.



Do they even give you a COA for the barrel? To them its a commodity not a collectors item. They can only use them once so they sell them to wineries, other distillers, brewers, planter makers, smoker pellet makers and to people that make pen blanks.  Its almost a waste product. I bet years ago they just burned them.


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## EBorraga (Sep 19, 2019)

I have access to all the Whiskey Barrel Blanks you want. But as Mike said, nobody offers COA's to say they are actually Makers Mark, Jim Beam, Four Roses, or anything else. As far as i'm concerned, they are just whiskey/bourbon soaked white oak blanks


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## EBorraga (Sep 19, 2019)

chartle said:


> Do they even give you a COA for the barrel? To them its a commodity not a collectors item. They can only use them once so they sell them to wineries, other distillers, brewers, planter makers, smoker pellet makers and to people that make pen blanks.  Its almost a waste product. I bet years ago they just burned them.


The barrel lid is stamped with logo, that's enough for them


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## EBorraga (Sep 19, 2019)

And Herradura Tequila are now using used Bourbon Barrels to make a Tequila.


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## Rotor13 (Sep 19, 2019)

Did not e expect such a response. A lot to think about. So I obtain piece of wood from my hometown that was from a hotel that was never finish. It sat empty for 90 years. It was just razed. Was going to make some pens and such. Thanks for all your help.


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## mark james (Sep 19, 2019)

Rotor13 said:


> Did not e expect such a response. A lot to think about. So I obtain piece of wood from my hometown that was from a hotel that was never finish. It sat empty for 90 years. It was just razed. Was going to make some pens and such. Thanks for all your help.



While all of the points mentioned above are probably valid in most circumstances, and should be considered if COA sales are important to your interests, keep in  mind that we may be over-thinking this issue for a project such as yours.  I'll bet a historical picture of the building, and a simple few notes will be perfectly fine for a local site remembrance.  I'd love to see some of the finished projects.


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## Buckmark13 (Sep 19, 2019)

Here's a historical picture my great, great, great, great Grandpa took. My great, great Grandmother found this picture up in the attic many years ago, and apparently forgot about it until my great Aunt recently found it.

He was next door neighbors with George Washington, and apparently they played together quite often after chores were done. Slabs of this particular cherry tree that Mr. Washington cut down have been sitting under a tarp in my family's barn for centuries. 

I only have a very few pieces left, but if anyone wants a piece of history I could part with a very limited number of them. $400 per cherry pen blank. Shipping with tracking number included! I will include a genuine Certificate of Authenticity on beautiful parchment paper, suitable for framing.


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## mark james (Sep 19, 2019)

Buckmark13 said:


> Here's a historical picture my great, great, great, great Grandpa took. My great, great Grandmother found this picture up in the attic many years ago, and apparently forgot about it until my great Aunt recently found it.
> 
> He was next door neighbors with George Washington, and apparently they played together quite often after chores were done. Slabs of this particular cherry tree that Mr. Washington cut down have been sitting under a tarp in my family's barn for centuries.
> 
> I only have a very few pieces left, but if anyone wants a piece of history I could part with a very limited number of them. $400 per cherry pen blank. Shipping with tracking number included! I will include a genuine Certificate of Authenticity on beautiful parchment paper, suitable for framing.


I'll take 20 blanks - the $8,000 check is in the mail.  I'd also love to see some blanks from that ax handle - looks to be over 6' in length and maybe 8" in diameter, but I do see that it has GW engraved on it - must have belonged to someone famous....  And the ax itself looks like a "large" size - May not fit too well on my 8" grinder .  I'll make it work!


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## MRDucks2 (Sep 19, 2019)

chartle said:


> Do they even give you a COA for the barrel? To them its a commodity not a collectors item. They can only use them once so they sell them to wineries, other distillers, brewers, planter makers, smoker pellet makers and to people that make pen blanks. Its almost a waste product. I bet years ago they just burned them.



Not that I am aware of for any barrels, but one of the distilleries does now offer (or did) you the opportunity to add a board to a barrel of whiskey during the aging process that, when complete and you receive the contents of the barrel you paid for, you get the board that was floating inside with proof that it is your board from your barrel. 


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## Buckmark13 (Sep 19, 2019)

mark james said:


> I'll take 20 blanks - the $8,000 check is in the mail. I'd also love to see some blanks from that ax handle - looks to be over 6' in length and maybe 8" in diameter, but I do see that it has GW engraved on it - must have belonged to someone famous.... And the ax itself looks like a "large" size - May not fit too well on my 8" grinder . I'll make it work!


Since you're taking 20 of the pen blanks, I'll throw in the axe handle as well. I'll need to run out to Home Depot and Staples tomorrow or Saturday morning, but I'll get it all mailed out to you on Saturday afternoon. 

What color paper do you want for the COA's? Is there a particular font you like?


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## mark james (Sep 19, 2019)

Buckmark13 said:


> Since you're taking 20 of the pen blanks, I'll throw in the axe handle as well. I'll need to run out to Home Depot and Staples tomorrow or Saturday morning, but I'll get it all mailed out to you on Saturday afternoon.
> 
> What color paper do you want for the COA's? Is there a particular font you like?



Don't worry about the COA's I'll make my own!


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## ramaroodle (Sep 19, 2019)

mark james said:


> While all of the points mentioned above are probably valid in most circumstances, and should be considered if COA sales are important to your interests, keep in  mind that we may be over-thinking this issue for a project such as yours.  I'll bet a historical picture of the building, and a simple few notes will be perfectly fine for a local site remembrance.  I'd love to see some of the finished projects.


+1 on the over thinking. Make up your own little COA and use it as a memento to include with the blanks or pens.  You don't even have to call them "COA"'s if you don't want.  A simple little card in a nice font would do just fine. Not like it's a lost Rembrandt.  Assuming you're an honest guy and live in the community nobody is going to run a DNA test on the wood.  It has local nostalgic sentimental value. End of story. It'd be different if you were billing it as wood from the Spruce Goose or original Yankee Stadium seats.  

_*XYZ Hotel Pen Blanks*_
*These are made from wood from the old XYZ Hotel*
_*Blah,......... blah............. blah
Blah............. blah................. blah*_
*Blah....... blah.............. blah*​IMHO


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## wolf creek knives (Sep 19, 2019)

So what I'm gathering here is that COA's are not something to worry or think about based on the last few posts I see.  I could walk out in my forest, cut down a Fir tree and say it came from Lincolns farm?  Am I missing something because I just dropped $500.00 on a plank off the USS Missouri after contacting the museum...TODAY.  It is the last plank, I got lucky, and there won't be anymore offered probably in my lifetime.  When I found the ships store they had Teak items for sale, after my purchase you can't buy planks on their website, I verified it.  It comes with one COA but the person told me it's not copyrighted and that I can make copies of it as needed and I'll probably have them notarized.   
COA's have a purpose and although some people abuse that it doesn't mean that everyone does.  The fool that Mark talks about in post #2 should be exposed so that everyone knows that he's selling junk.  To imply that something has more historical value than it actually does is wrong and I'm sorry Mark, but you should expose this person for what they are, a cheat and a liar.  What this guy did was no better than stealing, and I hate people who steal from others.  So I'll stick with my COA's and make darn well  sure that what I buy has them and that they can be verified otherwise I won't waste my money on garbage.  Sorry for my rant, but not everyone looks at COA's as just a piece of paper, they do have a purpose!


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## ramaroodle (Sep 19, 2019)

wolf creek knives said:


> Sorry for my rant, but not everyone looks at COA's as just a piece of paper, they do have a purpose!



Agreed, but I still think it depends on the context and situation.  I made pens from the basketball court at the high school where my kid and his buddies played after it was torn down following their senior year when they went to the state tourney.  They had played together since 3rd grade.  No one questioned me about the authenticity of the pens or the cute little COA they and the coach got that I printed up.  I think it is the same context as the OP.  Falsifying a COA is a lie and unethical regardless of the situation.


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## Rotor13 (Sep 19, 2019)

First pen done.


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## MRDucks2 (Sep 19, 2019)

Tom - curious, do you sign your COAs and is that what you are having notarized?


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## chartle (Sep 20, 2019)

wolf creek knives said:


> It comes with one COA but the person told me it's not copyrighted and that I can make copies of it as needed and I'll probably have them notarized.



For COAs I think the only power a notary has it to be a witness that you are you but they can't or shouldn't add anything to the authenticity of the COA or the plank. Also all the "real" COAs I have seen, things like signed sports jerseys provided for charity, they have something unique on them with a unique serial number on them like a hologram*. You being able to copy it sort of takes away its COAnis.

* Oh and it you would like some here is a link  https://www.amazon.com/Security-Hologram-Stickers-Consecutive-Authentication/dp/B002KHVHK8


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## wolf creek knives (Sep 20, 2019)

MRDucks2 said:


> Tom - curious, do you sign your COAs and is that what you are having notarized?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Penturners.org mobile app



Not my signature Mike, but the item I'm selling.  A notary would verify through the notary process that the item, with supporting documentation, is in fact the item being sold or given away.  But...you've got to have a lot of supporting documentation to have it notarized, pictures, witnesses and anything that might have been written about it in, say, a book or news article.  I have all of that in the shutter.  
The Teak decking is a different story and probably can't be notarized.  At that point it's people having to trust me.


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## wolf creek knives (Sep 20, 2019)

chartle said:


> For COAs I think the only power a notary has it to be a witness that you are you but they can't or shouldn't add anything to the authenticity of the COA or the plank. Also all the "real" COAs I have seen, things like signed sports jerseys provided for charity, they have something unique on them with a unique serial number on them like a hologram*. You being able to copy it sort of takes away its COAnis.
> 
> * Oh and it you would like some here is a link  https://www.amazon.com/Security-Hologram-Stickers-Consecutive-Authentication/dp/B002KHVHK8



I've been to a few art auctions where they're selling CM Russel items and all come with a COA and written documentation supporting the item being sold.  I've also seen where they are notarized supporting the fact that this is an original Charlie Russel painting.  But again, there's lots of supporting documentation.  I guess someone could slip in a copy of the original but it's pretty unlikely especially considering the prices the paintings go for.
As for the little holograms I think I'll pass .  In the case of the shutter once the COA is made they will be numbered with a lot of supporting documentation.


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## wolf creek knives (Sep 20, 2019)

ramaroodle said:


> Agreed, but I still think it depends on the context and situation.  I made pens from the basketball court at the high school where my kid and his buddies played after it was torn down following their senior year when they went to the state tourney.  They had played together since 3rd grade.  No one questioned me about the authenticity of the pens or the cute little COA they and the coach got that I printed up.  I think it is the same context as the OP.  Falsifying a COA is a lie and unethical regardless of the situation.



There's a trust factor to everything we turn.  People trust that the piece of wood is actually what it is said to be.  When someone asks me to make something for them they trust me and my reputation that what they ask for I'll do and that if I can't do it I tell them.  And if it's not what the wanted I give them their money back and any other costs i.e. shipping etc. (although it has never happened).  Obviously that trust factor was shown in the work you did for the pens you made from the flooring and the COA, no matter how cute it was, supported the item.  More importantly though, COA or not, those pens had a very special meaning for the boys that received them.


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## robutacion (Sep 20, 2019)

BKelley said:


> I seriously doubt that the Bethlehem Olivewood pen blanks we buy come from trees grown in Bethlehem.  Yes the blanks come from Bethlehem, but what country did the tree grow in.  I suspect  the wood is shipped into Bethlehem from all over, sawn into pen blank and shipped to us FROM Bethlehem.  The wood is from Bethlehem, but what is the origin of that wood.
> 
> Ben


True story Ben, some years back no one would ask their pen shop suppliers from where the Olive blanks actually did come from until "someone" started to bring turners attention to the fact the Bethlehem pen blanks they were buying were mostly Italian Olive wood sent by the container full either with full Olive logs, saw boards or processed into clean blocks of various sizes, the pics attached are from one of the main Italian Olive mills the very one that was and still is, the main source of export of Olive wood to Israel to be then processed there and shipped as Bethlehem olive wood with the respective "certificates" that were printed by the thousands.

The situation hasn't change just because they don't have in Israel sufficient Olive wood to use by their own carvers industry and supply the world with pen blanks so, shops in the USA, Canada, Australia and any other country that buy this product, when the origin question is asked, their comment/answer is that, their blanks were posted from Israel so, they have to be "real thing" REALY...?

One thing that seems to have changed in these last few years was the number of folks outside of Israel and indeed a lot closer to home trying to make a quick buck and taking advantage of the super value this BOW wood started to get, paying at least USD$5.00 per blanks (I've seen higher prices)+ shipping so, they were sourcing local Olive wood, print the certificates themselves and promote them everywhere as BOW original blanks and that was when they took it too far and I had to do something that some may remember and some have no clue but is irrelevant really, the main thing is that since that time, Olive wood blanks have dropped prices significantly and the BOW's were starting to be valued with prices that did represent a lot more the reality of the facts.

I may have sacrificed a large percentage of my Olive wood stock then, to "flood" the market with high grade blanks for AU$1.00 each but they have had all the square corners cut off so, they couldn't pass as BOW's so, would you pay $5 for a BOW when you could buy 5 olive blanks with as high or even higher grade than the Bow's...? the answer is obvious and that was the start of the change and more importantly, blokes became aware of the scam and the fact that folks started to ask questions to their suppliers and the suppliers themselves discovered some things that didn't match up and off-course some changes were made.

Maybe one day I learn to ignore this issue but until then, this is something very close to my heart and I can't let go...!

Cheers
George


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## pshrynk (Sep 20, 2019)

Good on ya, George!


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## chartle (Sep 20, 2019)

wolf creek knives said:


> I've also seen where they are notarized supporting the fact that this is an original Charlie Russel painting.



I'm just saying that a Notary can't authenticate anything and in most situations is just a certified witness that you are who you say you are. Though I guess they could witness the signature of Charlie Russel on some sort of paper.

Its just I follow a lawyer on youtube that mostly deals with car stuff and people bring up things and say " I had it notarized" or "I filed it withe court clerk" which adds to extra legal standing.

This might add some light.


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## jttheclockman (Sep 20, 2019)

This all comes down to buyer beware and also seller beware if caught. I trust no one when it comes to that stuff because there is no physical proof and if you want to say all these documents are proof. then show proof the documents are real and the circle begins. Way too many blank sellers these days. That list keeps growing and that I ask all the time is it not better to just make and sell blanks and make more money than trying to sell a finished pen. far less work for sure. many times buy a long board and cut to blanks and charge outrages prices and that is why I laugh here and on facebook what people ask for blanks ++++++++++++ shipping. Not for me man. Born at night but not last night. Good luck with the sales of those precious one of a kind blanks.


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## ramaroodle (Sep 20, 2019)

robutacion said:


> True story Ben, some years back no one would ask their pen shop suppliers from where the Olive blanks actually did come from until "someone" started to bring turners attention to the fact the Bethlehem pen blanks they were buying were mostly Italian Olive wood sent by the container full either with full Olive logs, saw boards or processed into clean blocks of various sizes, the pics attached are from one of the main Italian Olive mills the very one that was and still is, the main source of export of Olive wood to Israel to be then processed there and shipped as Bethlehem olive wood with the respective "certificates" that were printed by the thousands.
> 
> Cheers
> George



Damn! That is going to cause me to consider not selling BOW pens.  I sold a batch of them to a group of church deacons last year and one to the VERY Catholic father of a co-worker for his 80th birthday.  That makes me uncomfortable and I'm not at all religious. Now I'm imagining him worshiping that pen and the wood came from Milwaukee!  I got them from Ed at Exotic and i trust him implicitly but I'm sure he didn't witness the cutting of the trees!


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## jttheclockman (Sep 20, 2019)

ramaroodle said:


> Damn! That is going to cause me to consider not selling BOW pens.  I sold a batch of them to a group of church deacons last year and one to the VERY Catholic father of a co-worker for his 80th birthday.  That makes me uncomfortable and I'm not at all religious. Now I'm imagining him worshiping that pen and the wood came from Milwaukee!  I got them from Ed at Exotic and i trust him implicitly but I'm sure he didn't witness the cutting of the trees!


Unless he went over there and cut them himself.


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## robutacion (Sep 21, 2019)

jttheclockman said:


> This all comes down to buyer beware and also seller beware if caught. I trust no one when it comes to that stuff because there is no physical proof and if you want to say all these documents are proof. then show proof the documents are real and the circle begins. Way too many blank sellers these days. That list keeps growing and that I ask all the time is it not better to just make and sell blanks and make more money than trying to sell a finished pen. far less work for sure. many times buy a long board and cut to blanks and charge outrages prices and that is why I laugh here and on facebook what people ask for blanks ++++++++++++ shipping. Not for me man. Born at night but not last night. Good luck with the sales of those precious one of a kind blanks.


I agree with you on some points but not so much on others, far too many blanks sellers...? probably, do you make more money selling blanks than making pens..? yes and no, it all depends on what sort of wood/blanks you are selling and what market value levels do your made pens sell at, if you are in the right place, have the right skills and promote you product right as some folks on IAP have been doing for a long time, a single pen made by them fetches 10 to 50 times more than what many others may be able to sell them for, product quality or product uniqueness may/will determine the final cost but not always, I have a bloke that is my best customer buying pen blanks, he is an old man but he still manages to turn and sell about 50 pens a week, his average price is $25 and the average price he pays for pen blanks is about $1.75 + the kits and other stuff he still makes money but recently and after he used every species of wood and possible variants I ever had on sale, he asked me if I could get him some particular types of woods/pen blanks that he always heard of but never had worked with, anyway, to make a long story short, I have provided him with blanks from my own private collection most a lot more expensive than anything I sell, I have very clearly told him how much each of those blanks was going to cost him so, he agreed and he got them, some weeks later he sent me an email to let me know he sold all those special blanks I sold him, however, he did not manage to sell any of them for more than the normalk $25, they sold quick he said, no wonder why...?

People have the right to do what they want (within reason/law) if folks decided to stop making and selling pens to start selling pen blanks or even a combination of both, that is all fine by me, are they making more money that way, I can't say but I can tell you that selling pen blanks is not that much easier than seller pens (exceptions do apply), if you have a good wood supplier for cheap prices, slicing all up and selling it may make them a few good bucks but they may need to handle heavy weights, for those like me that all sell what they cut/salvaged/collected themselves the end product has surely did not come as "easy" as making pens and that I can ensure you.

Are there people selling their blanks overpriced..?, absolutely, and that is not only Olive wood but many other wood species.  Are people selling blanks that they deliberately miss-identify to sell for a higher price...? no doubt.   Do most sellers tend to over grade their blanks with terms such as "exhibition grade", "rare", "unique", "burl", etc.,..? well, you know the answer to that, huh...?

On the other hand, if you and many others can source their own woods, the blanks costs are considerably less than if you buy them, no questions there but there will be only a limited number of species that you can get that way, are they sufficient...? maybe, maybe not so, sourcing pen blanks from other sources/sellers is the obvious answer, that gap is what I have been focussing on all these years, provide people with pen blanks species that they would never be able to get from the wood commercial trade but regardless how hard those woods were to "acquire" I like to believe my prices are fair even for someone overseas but this is not about me and my woods, it's about folks being accurate and honest with what they are trying to sell, there are a few other wood species that I would be as vocal as I am with the Olive wood issue, if they were something that I could source myself and share to the world, my point in all this is simple, be honnest, be fair and don't be greedy and don't do to others what you don't like for yourself...!

PS: That may explain why I never succeeded in business...!   

Cheers
George


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## robutacion (Sep 21, 2019)

ramaroodle said:


> Damn! That is going to cause me to consider not selling BOW pens.  I sold a batch of them to a group of church deacons last year and one to the VERY Catholic father of a co-worker for his 80th birthday.  That makes me uncomfortable and I'm not at all religious. Now I'm imagining him worshiping that pen and the wood came from Milwaukee!  I got them from Ed at Exotic and i trust him implicitly but I'm sure he didn't witness the cutting of the trees!


Not selling BOW pens is not the goal, if true BOW blanks are what you want to build your pens with for religious people then you have to source BOW blanks if you trust your supplier and Ed at Exotic (just because you identified your supplier) trusts of his source then, you've done all you could but just imagine that somehow the people you make those pens for, have had the wood tested and proven not to be BOW, how would you feel even if you are not religious...?

Did you ever considered that possibility before you became aware of the BOW scam that has been going on for many years...?
You have the right to ask the question, is what I'm getting really what I intended to get..?

Cheers
George


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## chartle (Sep 23, 2019)

wolf creek knives said:


> I've also seen where they are notarized supporting the fact that this is an original Charlie Russel painting.



Ok thought about this more over the weekend and not sure how to write this but here goes. 

If certain customers like seeing something notarized I guess its OK but there also maybe ones that think this being nortized doesn't mean anything and are they trying to over sell the authenticity of something or worse?


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## wolf creek knives (Sep 24, 2019)

chartle said:


> Ok thought about this more over the weekend and not sure how to write this but here goes.
> 
> If certain customers like seeing something notarized I guess its OK but there also maybe ones that think this being nortized doesn't mean anything and are they trying to over sell the authenticity of something or worse?
> [/QUOTE
> ...


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## MRDucks2 (Sep 24, 2019)

I could be wrong but paintings and art by the likes of CM Russell and others fall under that governing body area. For artwork of this nature, there are a specific set of criteria that must be met to certify it as, for instance, an original CM Russell. This information is gathered by a certifying agency or person and then a certificate of authenticity, again with specific info, is issued and signed by certifying agent. The notary is certifying that they witnessed the signature of the agent/certifying person sighting the COA and/or other signed documents. I am pretty sure all a notary is, is a witness. 


Sent from my iPhone using Penturners.org mobile app


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## chartle (Sep 25, 2019)

MRDucks2 said:


> I am pretty sure all a notary is, is a witness.



Yes a witness of the signature but that's it they can't add any authenticity to the claims made in whatever is being signed.


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## Guthriecb (Sep 29, 2019)

wolf creek knives said:


> So what I'm gathering here is that COA's are not something to worry or think about based on the last few posts I see. I could walk out in my forest, cut down a Fir tree and say it came from Lincolns farm? Am I missing something because I just dropped $500.00 on a plank off the USS Missouri after contacting the museum...TODAY. It is the last plank, I got lucky, and there won't be anymore offered probably in my lifetime. When I found the ships store they had Teak items for sale, after my purchase you can't buy planks on their website, I verified it. It comes with one COA but the person told me it's not copyrighted and that I can make copies of it as needed and I'll probably have them notarized.
> COA's have a purpose and although some people abuse that it doesn't mean that everyone does. The fool that Mark talks about in post #2 should be exposed so that everyone knows that he's selling junk. To imply that something has more historical value than it actually does is wrong and I'm sorry Mark, but you should expose this person for what they are, a cheat and a liar. What this guy did was no better than stealing, and I hate people who steal from others. So I'll stick with my COA's and make darn well sure that what I buy has them and that they can be verified otherwise I won't waste my money on garbage. Sorry for my rant, but not everyone looks at COA's as just a piece of paper, they do have a purpose!



I have a few pieces of USS Missouri teak. The teak shop there puts it out for active duty and veterans to come and take a piece. Lots of it is not original deck, but scraps from their work to upkeep and replace portions of the deck. I spoke with their head carpenter there and he told me how to identify the old 1940s deck. He said the dead giveaway is the thickness and the oakum residue. In 1980’s they replaced the whole deck with a thinner layer of teak. It was an honor to work with those guys. The wood makes great pens.


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## wolf creek knives (Sep 29, 2019)

Guthriecb said:


> I have a few pieces of USS Missouri teak. The teak shop there puts it out for active duty and veterans to come and take a piece. Lots of it is not original deck, but scraps from their work to upkeep and replace portions of the deck. I spoke with their head carpenter there and he told me how to identify the old 1940s deck. He said the dead giveaway is the thickness and the oakum residue. In 1980’s they replaced the whole deck with a thinner layer of teak. It was an honor to work with those guys. The wood makes great pens.



I have 10 pieces of the 11 U.S. Battleships now, that's all I could find.  The only one I can't get is the Alabama as I was told that it still has it original decking and they're not expecting to do anything with it any time soon.  Most of the decking I have I'm pretty sure is 2nd generation as most of the original decking was redone after WWII when the ships went in for repair and refit.  I do have a few pieces that I know are off the original deck (the California, New Jersey, South Dakota).  I did talk with a very nice lady in the Missouri museum that told me that the decking was not a WWII original (it was scrapped in the late 40's) but that this particular plank did see action in the 1991 gulf war invasion which his also included on the COA.  I'm just happy to have a piece of Teak off each ship that at one time was installed as decking.  So I'm content with what I have and hope to start on this project this winter.  Now I just need to find an appropriate kit to fit the pens I want to turn.  If you don't mind me asking, what Island do you live on?


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## Guthriecb (Sep 29, 2019)

wolf creek knives said:


> I have 10 pieces of the 11 U.S. Battleships now, that's all I could find. The only one I can't get is the Alabama as I was told that it still has it original decking and they're not expecting to do anything with it any time soon. Most of the decking I have I'm pretty sure is 2nd generation as most of the original decking was redone after WWII when the ships went in for repair and refit. I do have a few pieces that I know are off the original deck (the California, New Jersey, South Dakota). I did talk with a very nice lady in the Missouri museum that told me that the decking was not a WWII original (it was scrapped in the late 40's) but that this particular plank did see action in the 1991 gulf war invasion which his also included on the COA. I'm just happy to have a piece of Teak off each ship that at one time was installed as decking. So I'm content with what I have and hope to start on this project this winter. Now I just need to find an appropriate kit to fit the pens I want to turn. If you don't mind me asking, what Island do you live on?



I’m on O’ahu right now. That is awesome having deck wood from so many battleships! Ptownsubbie.com has really cool engraved .30 caliber kits (in the picture with Missouri teak). The Missouri museum sells the bolt action in gun metal gray with the teak wood. They look pretty cool. 




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## wolf creek knives (Sep 29, 2019)

Guthriecb said:


> I’m on O’ahu right now. That is awesome having deck wood from so many battleships! Ptownsubbie.com has really cool engraved .30 caliber kits (in the picture with Missouri teak). The Missouri museum sells the bolt action in gun metal gray with the teak wood. They look pretty cool.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Those are nice.  Thanks for turning me on to the website.  I've already made contact with them and hope to have an answer soon to something else I'd like to get someday.  And by the way, that is a very nice looking pen you're showing.  My wife and I visit Kauai every other year for two weeks.  I absolutely love Kauai and can't wait to get back.  I might have to make a swing by day trip to O'ahu and visit the Missouri and Arizona again.  Thanks again- Tom


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