# Prototype



## IPD_Mr (May 21, 2011)

This is a prototype of a kitless I am working on. I want honest opinions on this, so be brutal. If you think it is crap then it is crap. I know the nib holder should be smaller in length. About 2/3rds of what it currently is. I have kept the body fairly straight as I am trying to keep an even balance between the outer edge of the body and the drilled hole for the converter, cartridge or bladder, depending on the route I go with it.


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## G1Pens (May 21, 2011)

The material is lovely. I know very little so my opinion is not worth much...but...just looking at it, it doesn't look like it would be comfortable in the hand. Somehow the body looks too big for the nib holder. It may just be the picture and it may be really comfortable to write with, but to me something just doesn't look right. Maybe its just the length of the nib holder as you said.


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## ldb2000 (May 21, 2011)

I think it looks like a great start Mike . The section should be a little shorter but that's not a big problem . The thickness of the body should be much thinner The step from the threads to the body is way too large and is awkward looking . Keep at it , you got a winner there .


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## IPD_Mr (May 21, 2011)

ldb2000 said:


> I think it looks like a great start Mike . The section should be a little shorter but that's not a big problem . The thickness of the body should be much thinner The step from the threads to the body is way too large and is awkward looking . Keep at it , you got a winner there .


 
Butch - thank you for mentioning the large diameter of the body.  This is something I need help with.  The cap is drilled at 7/16th for the threads.  I want the cap and the body to be the same diameter.  How thin can I go on the cap walls before I greatly risk cracking of the cap when screwing it on the body?  The finished diameter of the cap and body is at 5/8".  This was an easy size because it fit so well in the 5/8" collet chuck.  :biggrin:


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## ldb2000 (May 21, 2011)

It all depends on the material . On things like Inlace and other PR blanks , I try to keep the wall thickness no thinner then about .030" . On some materials like SOME Lucites I have been able to get down to .015" , but I have found that not all Lucites are equal , solid colors are much stronger then swirled or ribbon blanks . Centerbands are a good idea if you want to make thin walled caps .


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## skiprat (May 21, 2011)

Mike, there are a few solutions to disguise the step from threads to body. The first is to share the step between the pen body and the cap. This is a great method as it also ensures that the cap and body screw together flush. 
Another solution is to have the cap as a lamination. ALL kit pens are laminations which allows them to be turned thinner than a single piece of material. You can do the lamination with a brass tube or you can do it with a clear piece of plastic. Of course, it will never be as strong as brass, but it will be far stronger than on it's own:wink:


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## CREID (May 21, 2011)

You said to be brutal. I like the colors on the blank, but it looks to bulky to me. I know this is partly due to the size of the photo on my screen. Personally, I like threads to be metal or even a seperate piece of black plastic. Just me, I think it looks more proffessional (not workmanship but in looks).
Thanks for the opportunity to critique, it is quite an accomplishment to do a kitless, and the workmanship shows you are not only quite accomplished but love what your doing.
Curt


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## mredburn (May 21, 2011)

Part of what I see is that the proportions are off from what we are used to. The wide pen body makes the pen look short and the long nib/feed holder enforces that. By reducing the length of the cap threads and making an extra step from the threads to the pen body along with making the body narrower it will change the looks drastically.
Then you can adjust the nib holder to suit your design/personal tastes.


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## BRobbins629 (May 21, 2011)

I agree with what most of the others said including the fact that its a great start.  I also think a larger nib would do wonders for the aesthetics.  I'm guessing it the smaller version.


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## bluwolf (May 21, 2011)

Um... What they said. It pretty much covers it. But you should find it interesting that all the advice and opinions seem to follow along the same lines. If it was me asking I'd feel pretty confident about the path to take.


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## soligen (May 21, 2011)

Hard to tell from the pic, but the section looks too fat as well as too long. looks like the cap would not make it to the threads.  Photos cal lie about this, but the section also looks out of round witht the top being proud of the threads and the botom not.


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## PenMan1 (May 21, 2011)

I like it. I agree with Butch and Skip. I would like a shorter section and Skips idea of sharing the transition with the caps makes total sense. I like a "bigger" pen, so this totally appeals to me.

Excellent first prototype and I look forward to seeing the next revision. Keep up the good works and thanks for sharing.


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## OKLAHOMAN (May 21, 2011)

Mike, great start and agree with all on lenght and transition of the section. Keep it up, I'm sure you'll end up with many great looking  COMPONENT-LESS pens.


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## TomW (May 21, 2011)

Mike,  I like the pen.   My only problem is I dontt think I'll like it when I can see the bladder, cartridge or whatever.  Same with seeing the nib through the cap.  It's a really clear material and I'm afraid it's going to come out looking like a demonstrator.  Now if it were opaque....

Keep it up!
Tom


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## rstought (May 21, 2011)

Mike...

Because...

1.  I, too, have pretty much standardized on a 5/8" diameter for my kitless pens.

2.  I, too, make my sections longer than what you normally find in a kit pen (I certainly don't have the biggest hands out there, but the kit sections are way too small for my tastes).

3.  I, too, think a pen with a cap and body of the same diameter is very sleek - most of my kitless pens are made the same way.

4.  I don't find the occasional translucent pen, where you can see the innards, all that bad  - actually I find most of them pretty slick, and they are often only really completely see-through in bright light...like when being photographed....  

5.  I think the photo is probably giving everyone a distorted sense of the actual proportions of the pen.  In person, a 5/8" diameter body is not all that big, and the section - in order to fit inside the 7/16" hole - CAN'T be that big. 

...I think this is a GREAT looking pen!

Sometimes, though - depending upon the material and it's pattern - making a pen with the same diameter cap and body results in a finished product where it is tough to distinguish where the cap and/or body begins or ends.  One poster mentioned adding a centerband (although I think it was in the context of providing strength to a thin-walled cap) - since we haven't seen the cap yet (so you may have already thought of this)  a "centerband" consisting of a segmented contrasting material can also serve as a subtle (or blatant, depending upon the contrast) visual cue.


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## IPD_Mr (May 21, 2011)

Bob,
I am working on the cap right now. Just taking a break.    The first cap that I did exploded as I did not get it tight enough in the Talon chuck and well you know how the rest goes.  :redface:  The body currently is the same diameter as my desk Imperial, which of course is a full size pen.  I would like to get it a little smaller and that will depend on the cap's finished diameter.  I am going to shorten the nib/feed holder and when I do that I think that the diameter of the pen will need to be smaller.  I like the idea of adding another step in the body size so that it is more slenderizing.  The problem on this particular pen is that it is a translucent blank and to do this would mean the cap threading would have to go up higher in cap.  For solid color pens or if I did the cap in a solid black for example this could work just fine.  The basic idea on doing this pen is to creep up on my limits both equipment wise and skill wise.  I need to balance the two out.  My hope is that I need to buy equipment to see where my skill limit is.  :biggrin:  

I really appreciate every-one's input.  Yes pats on the back are great but they do not help me improve.  It is the folks that take the time to tell me all they find wrong both technically and aesthetically that help me to achieve my goals.  So thank you all for your comments.


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## PenMan1 (May 21, 2011)

Mike:
"Buying more shop equipment to determine where my abilities lie" are the story for the Misses:biggrin:

BUT, maybe you can sell it here.

Submitted with tongue firmly in cheek. Again, good job on the pen.


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## KenV (May 22, 2011)

" The finished diameter of the cap and body is at 5/8". This was an easy size because it fit so well in the 5/8" collet chuck.  "



Mike -- suggest you do not let a cheap hardware change drive the design and development.   ER-32 and ER-25 chucks come in metric sizes (14 and 15 mm) that will allow you to shave a bit more for the same convience of mounting.   Collets are about $10 in the one-of scheme of purchases.

Remember that "feel of the pen" is probably as important as the "appearance"


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## workinforwood (May 22, 2011)

I don't have any issues with your pen Mike, just jealous about the material it's made from. That's beautiful stuff!


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## IPD_Mr (May 22, 2011)

Ken - I have a 17/32" ER-32 and I have the new cap and body down to .550 in diameter.  It actually feels kind of slender as it is a little long.  Right now the darn nib and feed holder is driving me nuts. (yeah I know nuttier)  There is only a small section inside of it that is actually threaded.  On one end the converter or cartridge needs to be have clearance. And on the other end the body of the feed needs to go in without having to thread the whole darn thing.  Actually just typing this out and thinking has given me some ideas to try this afternoon.  Thank you.


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## IPD_Mr (May 22, 2011)

PenMan1 said:


> Mike:
> "Buying more shop equipment to determine where my abilities lie" are the story for the Misses:biggrin:
> 
> BUT, maybe you can sell it here.
> ...


 
So instead of getting more collets you suggest I wrap where I want the blank held with duct tape, and that will give me my ability to have a size varience?  I bet I could take my old larger drill bits and file them down to the diameter I want too!  That just ain't fair Andy.  You took the joy of possibly buying new toys to work harder and find a way around spending money.


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## PenMan1 (May 22, 2011)

NO! I advocate buying all of the tools that you CURRENTLY need, all of the tools that you may SOMEDAY need, THEN buy spares, in case you misplace one!

I am ALL about tools! I just can't ever sell that theory to SWMBO! I CERTAINLY didn't mean to dampen you joy of buying new tools (and the full compliment of ER32 collets, IMHO, are absolutely ESSENTIAL to pen making).

I'm just jealous that you got the "go ahead" to buy tools, and I have to beg for weeks!


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## Dalecamino (May 22, 2011)

The pen looks good Mike. I don't have anything to say that hasn't said already. You'll get it the way you want it. Great start.


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## Chthulhu (May 22, 2011)

Personally, I wouldn't change a thing. If the contours of your cap balance the shape of the barrel, which appears in the photo to be fatter at the end than at the section, the only concern would be weight. If it runs over 20-25 grams capped, I'd consider just reducing the overall OD of the barrel and cap, or perhaps tapering toward the ends a bit to remove some weight.

Then again, some people like a heavy pen. 

If the end of the barrel is closed (hard to see in the photo) this would be gorgeous as an eyedropper pen with some dark red or brown ink sloshing in the barrel. Otherwise a good converter with gold trim; a visible cartridge would spoil the look.

I *like* the long section; it seems to be a good diameter, at least for my hand, and keeps the fingers well away from the threads for comfort. As long as the sharp step edge isn't laying against the web of the thumb, it should sit nicely.


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## IPD_Mr (May 22, 2011)

Thank you all again for your input. It is now time to go back to the drawing board and learn from all of my mistakes on this endeavour. While re-working a new nib holder I blew up the main body of the pen.   I also bumped against my stool that my skew was on (stupid as heck leaving it there) it falls off leaving a nice gash in the back of my leg. :redface::redface:

At any rate I have a new found respect for all of you who have done kitless pens.

_Now I could use some really good advice from all of you who regualarly use collet chucks and jawed chucks such as the Talon._ 

When I take a blank and turn it to .750 put it in the 3/4" collet chuck and turn most of it to .5312 (17/32nds), it slides in fine to the 17/32nd collet.  Next I mount the blank into the collet chuck so I can work on the larger 3/4" end of the blank.  Flip on the lathe and the blank has some wobble as is spins out of round.  Is there a trick to getting the blank into the next size collet so that it does not wobble?  Could the collet be screwy and if so how do I tell?  For that matter I suppose my lathe could be off, but I have no problems when I turn between centers and the blank meets up flush with the pen components, so I don't think it could be that.  Same question about the talon chuck.  I have the spigot jaws on it.  What is the best way to put a piece in the jaws so that it turns true?


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## skiprat (May 22, 2011)

Mike, 'Re-chucking' even on the same perfect chuck on the same perfect lathe can be a nightmare. 
My advice would be to simply take it out and then put it back again and again and again till it spins true. 
Remember that things spin up to DOUBLE out of alignment when rechucked and our eyes are pretty accurate judges, especially when we see a flickering light on something spinning. 

Now.....here's a question for you!!!!  How did you get such a fantastically clean hole down the middle of that blank!!!:biggrin:


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## rstought (May 22, 2011)

Mike...

+1 on the perils of rechucking...it is almost always going to be a major hassle...

Is there a reason you need to rechuck it in the first place?  I have used the method outlined by texatdurango in his tutorial of a few months back (perhaps called "Another way of making a pen" or something along those lines), where the blank is turned round to 3/4", chucked into the 3/4" collet and left there while the piece (either cap or body) is drilled, tapped, turned to size, finished and parted off, with great success.


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## KenV (May 22, 2011)

Mike == Collet chucks are not perfect alignment tools and most machinists want to work within 1 1/2 times the diameter of the work --  for a 3/4 diameter, that is just over an inch away.   You are cantileverd out 4-6 inches and a little slope close to the chuck get long fast.

Live centers are a good tool to capture and reduce the missed alignment.  

Best practice is to set your centers at the start and use them as references when ever possible.  Center drill the centers to establish a 60 degree cone on center as a good practice.  It can be just a little one -- 

The Nova tail stock has a long extenson point as well as a 5/16 threaded adapter to hooke up an array of possibilities.

Both have cup centers with removable points - and I turn a stub cone to fit into that taper.  Both have 60 degree center capability to use the litte hole you drilled.

Support the end and it will be there with precision.

I turn finials outboard from both Talon and Collet chucks, but they  are pointed and never have to match anything at that end -- so precision is not important in the work holding, but I commonly use the cup center to avoid movement.


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## IPD_Mr (May 22, 2011)

skiprat said:


> Now.....here's a question for you!!!! How did you get such a fantastically clean hole down the middle of that blank!!!:biggrin:


 
Steven - Actually it was rather simple but time consuming.  As everyone knows Lucite can be a problem when drilling if you get it too hot.  That part is easy with a can of Pam.  I would spray the bit to start drilling at my lathe's slowest speed.  Once the bit starts to cut I would slowly turn the tail crank about one turn, no more than five seconds worth and stop the lathe and pull out the drill bit.  Spray inside the new hole and the bit again after cleaning the flutes.  I repeated the process until I was all the way to my desired depth.  I would check the bit for heat and if it was warm to the touch I would let it cool down.  Even with that you still have scratch marks inside the hole from the bit.  How do you sand and polish the inside of a blank????  :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

I took one of my punch rods that was smaller than the hole and chucked the point end into my hand held VS drill.  Next I cut sand paper wide enough to cover the diameter of the rod.  Sprayed the back of the paper with some Locktite spray adhesive and wrapped it around the rod.  I did this with 220, 320, 400 and 600 grits.  I still wanted it to shine so I continued with an old set of MM and cut it the same way as the sand paper.  It did not look to bad but it needed more polishing.  Next I sprayed the adhesive on the rod and wrapped it with paper towel leaving extra at the tip.  Squeezed some Novus 3 in the blank and began to polish.  I did the same thing with Novus 2 and 1.  *Very time consuming* but well worth the effort.


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## wouldentu2? (May 22, 2011)

Tough to critique what I can't do, so the teacher says I can see the hollow at the end of the tube which also needs to be tapered since the sharp edge would be annoying when using it.

It has a very old look to it, maybe 1920's.


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## workinforwood (May 23, 2011)

Mike..I use collets on all my pens. For a closed end one piece such as this, I would leave a tail on the backside of the pen right till the very end. The tailstock is used for support regardless which end of pen in collet. After satisfied with pen and its all shined up then u can rechuck. Pen, pull up tailstock and it aligns pen straight into collet and you now part and polish the tail end of the pen.


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