# What Constitutes Kitless?



## Cwalker935 (Jul 12, 2016)

Would using brass tubes as a part of a pen that does not use a commercial kit be considered kitless?  For example, building a pen around tubes for one of the Jr. pen kits without using the other kit components.

Is there an accepted definition of "kitless" since many "kitless pens use commercially available nibs, rollerball cartridges, or clips?


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## jttheclockman (Jul 12, 2016)

I know you are probably asking just for your own info but my question is who cares??? Please do not take that the wrong way. What you do to make a pen and what materials you use and what parts you use is just your interpretation of a pen. Why label pens as kit pens or kitless pens. It has been discussed here in length how cheap the words kit pens become when selling. Some shows even frown upon them. Make your own barrels and caps from raw materials. As soon as you make 2 of them they are now kit pens. To me using all parts of a so called kit or some of the parts or none of them at all is just your interpretation of making a pen. Hopefully you add your own touch and basically you do when you select the blank or design the blank from scratch. 

My question is why do we have to label our work in that manner. Call it an Advanced makers pen. Just my thoughts.


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## Cwalker935 (Jul 12, 2016)

The question occurred to me while reading the rules for the upcoming kitless contest. Perhaps I should have asked the question there but thought that question was a broader question and decided to pose it as a general question.


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## southernclay (Jul 12, 2016)

This can get pretty murky to me but I'll ramble through some thoughts.:biggrin:

Where do you draw the line is hard in any craft, my brother is a knife maker, he does all but forge the steel but takes raw steel, grinds, heat treats etc. He doesn't make the handle material, especially create or grow his trees for the wooden ones lol but still, I would consider his knives to be custom. 

Custom/kitless/componentless all will have their own degree of "I did more than the rest" features. To me if you use an El Grande section but do the rest yourself it's kitless. If you use tubes but machine the components it's kitless. You can buy lengths of tubes and then cut to the size you want so if you do that to the same specs as Jr tubes it doesn't make much difference to me. 

So if Constant at Lazerlinez makes one of his pens to me it's kitless, to the rest of us we'd be making a kit pen 

The awesome clicker you made out of aluminum to me was kitless although it used a click mechanism that was purchased. I also see that there are some pretty awesome areas that I haven't seen touched to mix tube in casting and kitless mixed which may be where you are going with this.....I hope it is because I think it raises a lot of possibilities of what can be done.

And I don't think there are many making nibs, feeds or their own taps/dies or metal lathes to do the threading. It's cool to see some of the posts recently where the pen maker is creating the clip as well........man we are all in such a vortex!


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## duncsuss (Jul 12, 2016)

Cwalker935 said:


> The question occurred to me while reading the rules for the upcoming kitless contest. Perhaps I should have asked the question there but thought that question was a broader question and decided to pose it as a general question.



It's a fair question -- actually two questions.

If your only concern is entering a contest, check the precise meaning that the contest organiser(s) use -- whether we agree with it or not is irrelevant, their contest, their rules :wink:

I would not be averse to using brass tubes to add mechanical strength to the barrel of what I'd still call a kitless pen (though I prefer using ebonite -- hard rubber -- to line barrels and caps since I can tap threads in it quite well).

And I use purchased clips, fountain pen nibs, and ink converters. When I get around to making a kitless rollerball, I will make the nose cone myself, but use a spring that I bought.

Those are my definitions -- others are free to use their own rules :biggrin:


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## jttheclockman (Jul 12, 2016)

Cwalker935 said:


> The question occurred to me while reading the rules for the upcoming kitless contest. Perhaps I should have asked the question there but thought that question was a broader question and decided to pose it as a general question.




I believe then there needs to be specifics to that contest and not as a general rule. What one calls kitless may not be another persons interpretation. I think kitless has become one of those broad terms used here alot. This same conversation came up when the forum Advanced pens was being formed. So many wanted to call it the Kitless forum. Too many variables go into making a pen and to label them as such to me does an injustice to our art form. I do not want to go into rights and wrongs on this but that question then should be asked in that contest and the specifics layed out. As far as a broader conversation it would make an interesting topic as it has before. Maybe some new fresh ideas have emerged. With so many new members maybe they have a different perspective.


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## SteveJ (Jul 12, 2016)

*YIKES!!!*  Now I'm not sure I want to be organizing the "Kitless Pen" contest.  

Actually, I will give the question some thought as it pertains to the contest and answer in more detail in that thread, but I would say that *for the contest*, the example you used, of using tubes but no other components would qualify as kitless.

As far as I am concerned, the "slimline" I posted a couple of years ago and pictured here is "kitless".  Although it uses 7mm tubes and the transmission, there are no components visible.  

http://www.penturners.org/forum/att...08996676t-8th-place-twice-birdseye-slim-2.jpg

I suppose you could do the same thing using duct tape, but I doubt that would win you any prizes or sales...


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## jalbert (Jul 12, 2016)

"Kitless" to me has more to do with the engineering, construction, and technical aspects of a building a pen, than whether or not you use some components that have been prefabricated. As far as my own personal preferences and philosophy go regarding the use of prefab components, I choose to use a few as possible. Given the amount of time I spend figuring out all the variables involved in the pen construction, I feel like I am taking a shortcut by using components like clips, grips, finials, etc that have been prefabricated. Again, this is my own personal philosophy, and I expect no one to follow it. 

Make pens. Do what makes you happy.


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## Dalecamino (Jul 12, 2016)

It has been generally accepted in the kitless arena that the use of some parts from kits are used, because not everyone can make their own clips, ink feeds and nibs for Fountain pens. We use the term Kitless because, it's easy to remember :biggrin: I kind of agree with John..."who cares" what it's called? 

This pen has tubes in it. Has a clip from a kit, refill and spring. But, you can't buy this pen from a kit supplier. :wink: Therefore, I'll call it a kitless pen. You CAN make your own clips, sure. But, I don't think it should be required.  

http://www.penturners.org/forum/f13/saved-watch-part-blanks-137814/


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## jttheclockman (Jul 12, 2016)

Chuck that is a great example and there are many many more shown here. You could argue all day weather it is kitless or not. But to the point the contest needs specific rules for that particular contest. Hopefully all gets worked out without too much fanfare. Need to rule with :hammer:


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## Dalecamino (Jul 12, 2016)

Maybe so! Glad I'm not running this one :biggrin:


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## Dalecamino (Jul 12, 2016)

SteveJ said:


> *YIKES!!!*  Now I'm not sure I want to be organizing the "Kitless Pen" contest.
> 
> Actually, I will give the question some thought as it pertains to the contest and answer in more detail in that thread, but I would say that *for the contest*, the example you used, of using tubes but no other components would qualify as kitless.
> 
> ...


Steve, JMO, I say allow the tubes, and the maker will surely make his own way of attaching his own parts (that he/she made themselves) to the barrels. I think Mike will have some input on this. Don't stress on it :biggrin:


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## Dale Lynch (Jul 12, 2016)

Here's one cent,kitless to me is making everything but the ink delivery system from rough materials..

Kitless doesn't necessarily make it better though,if you have more wills than skills.I'll give you an example of what i mean.Here is a kitless ballpoint using only the ink cartridge vs a fountain pen using several parts of a kit.
I say the one with the kit parts is the better pen.


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## CREID (Jul 12, 2016)

SteveJ said:


> *YIKES!!!*  Now I'm not sure I want to be organizing the "Kitless Pen" contest.
> 
> Actually, I will give the question some thought as it pertains to the contest and answer in more detail in that thread, but I would say that *for the contest*, the example you used, of using tubes but no other components would qualify as kitless.
> 
> ...



I believe that once you volunteer to run a contest, you can't back out for life.:biggrin:


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