# Weekend Rant



## Johnathan (Oct 22, 2007)

OK, first off, let me apologize in advance if anyone is offended, although I hope we are all thick skinned around here. That said, I was gone today with family to a place called "Apple Hill" in California. We go every year to enjoy the food, fresh apples, cider, crafts, and art. It's just a great fall activity with the whole family to get out and enjoy the country air. 

Now, out of about 200 craft/art booths, there was only 1 pen turner. This guy looked like he was about 80 years old and was missing approximately 2 1/2 fingers. The man was VERY nice and I was interested in hearing his sales pitch, as he was just sitting there doing nothing and with no other customers. 

He pointed out some "extremely rare" zebra wood pens, an some "VERY hard to find" Cocobolo pens...HA! It seemed that friction polish was used and I did not see one pen that had a perfect fit with his slimline, euro, and cigar pens. Also, the ends of all the barrels were gray from sanding into the bushings.

I was thrown over the edge when he explained that he uses a "VERY THICK" and "SPECIAL" 10k gold plating and that he guarantees that it will not rub off EVER[8)][?]!      

He also explained that my hands would best fit the cigar pen and that although most women prefer the slimline, my wife's hand were big enough to go with a cigar pen[:0][:0][B)]! You should have seen her face! HA! 

I just have nothing to really say to explain what I was feeling. My whole family had to sit through the car ride home listening to me rant about this guy and they just didn't get it[|)]. I don't expect anyone to comment, I just need to rant again to people that actually understand! Call me a pen snob, call me a perfectionist, whatever, but it seems like he is just shooting himself in the foot[xx(]. 

Oh, by the way, my annual slice of Dutch Carmel Apple Pie with Fresh Vanilla Ice Cream and Hot Apple Cider Cinnamon Sauce was WONDERFUL[8D]! 

Thanks for reading!


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## arioux (Oct 22, 2007)

> _Originally posted by Johnathan_
> <br />Oh, by the way, my annual slice of Dutch Carmel Apple Pie with Fresh Vanilla Ice Cream and Hot Apple Cider Cinnamon Sauce was WONDERFUL[8D]!
> 
> Thanks for reading!



This is the part of your post that offend me the most !!!!![][]

For the other part, it think that we all go thru this experience once in a while.  Just go to you shop, make yourself a nice pen and see how you are proud of YOUR work. And next year, bring it to the show and just use it in front of him[}].  And tell him it's Pink ivory, one of the rarest wood in the world, and that you have a private supplier on a special elite forum!![][].  He might quit !![], or better, start to come here and improve !!!!!

Alfred


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## mrcook4570 (Oct 22, 2007)

He is also shooting us in the foot.  The general public sees his pens and assumes that all are alike.  His quality reflects our quality, in the buyer's eyes and they become leery about purchasing handmade pens before they even inspect what we have to offer.


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## wdcav1952 (Oct 22, 2007)

It is a shame you didn't pull out one of your pens to show him how your hands fit it.


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## OSCAR15 (Oct 22, 2007)

Hey Jonathan:  
  I understand why you were upset, as would be any serious penturner. I do believe I understand why the man was selling shoddy work and misrepresenting it though.
At 80 years old, and missing fingers, I would guess him to be a retired woodworker. Using common woods (however nice they may be, he is most likely on fixed income).  Using cheaper penlines, he most likely hasn't got a lot of money.  Doing shoddy work, he is most likely turning out volume.  Misrepresenting the wood and finish, hell at 80, he will probably be dead before the plating wears off. The customer can complain to his estate .
In short, he is probably trying to supplement his Social Security so not to have to eat Alpo.   
I would be appalled at the lies and crappy workmanship also as it hurts the rest of us.  This guy sounds as if he was trying to make a lot of quick and cheap sales.  It is a pity that ALL penturners do not or cannot turn out quality, and have pride in their work.  I am guessing that for this guy, it wasn't a hobby, nor a craft he cares about.  Just a way to help make a few quick bucks....


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## Texatdurango (Oct 22, 2007)

> _Originally posted by Johnathan_
> <br />...He pointed out some "extremely rare" zebra wood pens[], an some "VERY hard to find" Cocobolo pens...HA[]!...


I see those terms being used all the time, only it's not by an 80 year old man trying to make a few honest bucks with what skills he has, it's people selling pen blanks!  Every time you read of someone selling desert iron wood or amboyna burl, the terms "extremely rare" and/or "hard to find" always seem to pop up.

And yet there always seems to be a ready supply available.... at a price of course!

The old man isn't the only one using one of the oldest tricks in the book to sell something.


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## Rifleman1776 (Oct 22, 2007)

for someone with limited knowledge, "extremely rare" might seem appropriate. Pens I show and sell with exotic woods are, usually, virtually unknown to the people I present them to. It's a vague term. Give the guy a break. A bit of sales puff is acceptable anywhere. Shoddy workmanship? Another story. As suggested, when I see something like that, I'll mention I make pens too and show them the one I carry in my pocket. That can either embarrass them or make you a friend. One fellow, recently, actually started asking me questions on how to improve his. I took that as a compliment and we had a nice chat while I shared what I could. Johnathan, as far as your old timer is concerned, just let it go. He was probably doing the best he could. That's all any of us do. At the next show you go to, you never know, someone might come by your table and show you something that will blow you out of the water. There's always a faster gun in town.


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## Mudder (Oct 22, 2007)

Let's try to see it from another perspective. To you and I those woods might not be rare or hard to find but for someone who does not have a clue the only easy woods to find would be what you can find in a big box store, IE. Pine, Maple, Poplar & oak.


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## hazard (Oct 22, 2007)

I see these same terms flying around one of my other hobbies all the time.  I keep and breed tropical fish -african cichlids.  

Most types of wood can be found if one makes the effort to type the name into google and is willing to pay asking price plus shipping.  It is discouraging to see people kind of misleading/inticiting others to buy this way.  Kind of makes my skin crawl when I deal with people like this.

I could see someone selling stuff like this and knowing this is the best they produce and acting like it.  Talent and skill only goes so far.  But then to have someone sell the pens saying this it the best you will find is totally wrong and misleading.

Anyway don't know if I made any sense but just my opinions

Chris


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## drayman (Oct 22, 2007)

johnathan, at 80 years old he probably made them on his old treadle lathe[] in some backwoods[:0]


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## Johnathan (Oct 22, 2007)

Well, I should have taken a photo. The guys inventory was huge, his booth was one of the nicest and he was there last year as well. Now I'm not so heartless to not give an old guy a break trying to pay for his meds. This was a "professional booth" in a "profession venue", selling "unprofessional goods". I should have talked to him, yes, I should have told him about IAP - Yes, that could have made the difference. I know I have learned so much from all of you and have been in complete awe at what some of you do. I just keep trying to play catch-up in the hopes of getting better. I know things also would have been different yesterday if I had not seen his booth at the end of a long day when all I wanted was to lay down and take a nap. I hope to see him next year, healhty and still turning pens. Maybe they will look better and I hope to visit with him then. []


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## Glass Scratcher (Oct 22, 2007)

At least at 80 he is still kicking and doing something.  Even if his work is not up to others standards, he is happy and still trying.  I wish my old pop had been able to make it to 80 and had been under his own steam.


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## Texatdurango (Oct 22, 2007)

> _Originally posted by Johnathan_
> <br />Well, I should have taken a photo. The guys inventory was huge, his booth was one of the nicest and he was there last year as well. Now I'm not so heartless to not give an old guy a break trying to pay for his meds. This was a "professional booth" in a "profession venue", selling "unprofessional goods".



"unprofessional goods"... Oh my!  So who is the judge on quality and what is the criteria for one to have a "professional" booth?

I just walked into Sams and bought a craft tent, no one said a thing to me about being a professional or not.  I got a Texas sales tax permit, maybe that makes me a professional now, I don't know.  People say I make nice pens but come to think of it... no one has ever said they look "professional"

I've got a show coming up in a week, I hope they don't check credentials!  

It's good that you are so talented, my goal is to be almost as good as you some day so I can sell my pens to pay for my meds too[:0]!

Matter of fact... I'm going to go out in the shop right now and practice making some pens.


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## bkc (Oct 22, 2007)

> _Originally posted by Mudder_
> <br />Let's try to see it from another perspective. To you and I those woods might not be rare or hard to find but for someone who does not have a clue the only easy woods to find would be what you can find in a big box store, IE. Pine, Maple, Poplar & oak.



I'm from this perspective. Before I started turning wood I thought anything that wasn't in my backyard was exotic and hard to find. Now I know that just about any wood can be had, for a price. So the people browsing through his stuff probably WERE impressed by the 'rare exotics', I'd of been at one time too. 

Also, no matter how professional his booth looked, that doesn't mean he has more than a nice set up (or has a wife that knows how to do it). I sense a bit of snobbery in the comments on his quality. Maybe he taught himself? A new turner can knock out a lot of pens in a short time without being a pro. Lord willing I get to be his age. And hope that instead of someone going online complaining about my quality they'll take the time to show me how it's done right. Until you really get into a craft like turning pens you don't notice the quality of others work. Once in you can nit pick others work to death (btdt). 

Sorry for my long post. I just thought it was rude to of acted that way about a poor old guy supplementing his income, maybe doing the best he's able to do?


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## Johnathan (Oct 22, 2007)

> _Originally posted by Texatdurango_
> <br />
> 
> 
> ...



George,

I think it is obvious when someone is putting time into their booth for a "professional" look. Nice tables, glass cases, and a lighting setup do all of this in my eyes. When you can pick up a pen and see a partial blow-out on one end and nothing done about it, I just don't think it looks professional. That's just me and my opinion that really isn't worth that much, except to me. 

Now, let me be the first to say, George your pens look professionally made. Your segmenting is pretty awesome and I have yet to create a segmented pen that nice. I wish you luck at the upcoming show, I'm sure you will do great.


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## Rifleman1776 (Oct 22, 2007)

Johnathon, let us know how you are doing after your 80th birthday.
Prediction: You won't be able to hit the high notes. But you will still sing and try.


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## Johnathan (Oct 22, 2007)

Sometimes, frustration is just good to get out. I have seen many posts on IAP just like this, that's why this is here in Casual Conversations. It wasn't long ago at all that I was turning my first pen, by the way it looked like crap! I don't mean to post my comments from any other point of view than a beginner, if I felt I had nothing to learn, I wouldn't frequent this site, THERE IS SO MUCH TO LEARN and each of you help me become better. This is just my casual observations in the casual conversations section. I too, hope to be alive, kicking, and turning at 80, yes, let's give him that. So as the horse is kicked, I think I'll stop posting here before I dig myself into a hole too large to get out of. [] Happy Turning Everyone!


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## GBusardo (Oct 22, 2007)

> _Originally posted by Rifleman1776_
> <br />for someone with limited knowledge, "extremely rare" might seem appropriate. Pens I show and sell with exotic woods are, usually, virtually unknown to the people I present them to. It's a vague term. Give the guy a break. A bit of sales puff is acceptable anywhere. Shoddy workmanship? Another story. As suggested, when I see something like that, I'll mention I make pens too and show them the one I carry in my pocket. That can either embarrass them or make you a friend. One fellow, recently, actually started asking me questions on how to improve his. I took that as a compliment and we had a nice chat while I shared what I could. Johnathan, as far as your old timer is concerned, just let it go. He was probably doing the best he could. That's all any of us do. At the next show you go to, you never know, someone might come by your table and show you something that will blow you out of the water. There's always a faster gun in town.



I could not possibly agree more


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## fernhills (Oct 22, 2007)

> _Originally posted by GBusardo_
> <br />
> 
> 
> ...


                              I`ll have to agree as well


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## ahoiberg (Oct 23, 2007)

jeez Jonathan, you'd think you hit the main line here... thanks for sharing your story with us, it kinda made me chuckle. and kudos to the old dude for still turning.


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## Nick (Oct 24, 2007)

I whole heartly agree with both of Riflemans replies. I would buy one of this gentlemans pens, regardles of the quality, just to make him feel good. I would feel my return on my investment would be my joy in knowing that I made this man happy with the sale and I would be happy knowing I made a person feel good about himself in what he was doing. I would hope that if and when I reach 80 I am still able to stand at the lathe and turn something usefull. I am sure his family and friends are proud of what he is doing at his age. I do not think that this gentelmens quality issues reflect on any of us, no one is forcing us to buy his items.


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## KC (Oct 24, 2007)

I think I have to agree in principle with the original post.  My main work is furniture, and when I pay money to be in a show, I can't help but feel like someone showing sub-par work is only hurting the whole of the group.

Of course everybody has to start somewhere... but on the off chance that somebody who's never seen pens for sales see THOSE first, they assume that lesser quality to be THE quality... and when they see your booth at another show, they walk on by... because they remember what they saw before.

KC


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## louisbry (Oct 24, 2007)

According to the original post there were two hundred booths and only one pen turner.  Quality of the arts/crafts in general was not mentioned nor the price of the old man's pens.  Without more information if is hard to make a qualitative judgement.  I would however be impressed that the old man was holding his own  and trying to make a sale.  
If the pens were functional and were priced consistent with their quality what harm is done.  The marketplace has a tendency to level all playing fields.    Whats to be upset about.  Have a conversation with the old man and give him a few pointers if he is receptive or just go the the next booth being thankfull that you are blessed with the tools and ability to make a higher quality produce.


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## louisbry (Oct 24, 2007)

I meant "higher quality product".  I am going to have to start reviewing my posts better. []


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## Rifleman1776 (Oct 24, 2007)

Louis said, in part, "Whats to be upset about."
That's the bottom line.


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## btboone (Oct 24, 2007)

I think the biggest part is that Johnathan obviously puts his heart and soul into anything he does.  It's part of his DNA.  I can easily see why he finds it a little offensive when someone does such a shoddy job at something when it's so easy to demand a little more from one's self.  It has nothing to do with viewing him as "competition" or taking away from what Johnathan has done.  It's about self respect.  Maybe he doesn't have the tools or knowledge.  Or maybe he does and is just being lazy.  Kudos for the old man trying, but the opposite of kudos for doing it halfway.  Anything worth doing is worth doing well.


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## Texatdurango (Oct 24, 2007)

> _Originally posted by KC_
> <br />....Of course everybody has to start somewhere... but on the off chance that somebody who's never seen pens for sales see THOSE first, they assume that lesser quality to be THE quality... and when they see your booth at another show, they walk on by... because they remember what they saw before.
> 
> KC


KC, You don't really believe that do you?  To me, it doesn't make any sense at all!

If you went to a craft show and the first booth you saw was selling candlestick holders that looked as if they were turned with a dull hatchet then dipped in a vat of lard for a finish, would you look the other way when passing the other booths selling candlestick holders?  I doubt it! 

I think some around here fancy their own craftsmanship a little too much and think everyone else should be up to par with them. 

I've read many similar threads to this one and if I were to read between the lines to find some hidden agendas, I would think that some people have a problem with "older people" turning pens as if they were invading THEIR space.

Wouldn't it be sad if you had your pens proudly on display at a show and a few fellow turners saw it, thought it was junk and posted here about YOU? 

Just a thought!


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## alamocdc (Oct 24, 2007)

While I truly appreciate all of the views expressed here, I also fully understand Johnathan's frustration. Let me explain... about 10 years ago I started customizing 1:60 and 1:64 scale diecast cars & trucks. I would drill the rivets out, strip the original paint, remove, sand & fill casting seams & flaws, sometimes repaint apply new decals, clearcoat, add new wheels with real rubber tires, rerivet, and buff the finished auto. I used only quality auto finishes. Was this time consuming? You know it. Why did I do it? Mainly for therapy, but there were about a dozen and a half "quality" dicast custom shops in the country selling our goods on ebay. And I always got the ROI I needed and expected from collectors. These were NOT toys, but serious collector items. By 2001 dozens of... let's just say band wagon riders... saw what we were getting for our customs and literally flooded the market with cheap and shoddy work. The collectors couldn't tell from the photos whose work was up to their standards and whose wasn't. So by the end of 2001 none of the quality customizers were selling anything because the collectors no longer knew who they could trust. Granted, the market wasn't as large as is that for those of us who sell our pens, etc., but I had little trouble selling 3 to 5 diecast autos per week up to that point. The band wagoners did little or no body work and often left the original paint on. They would simply apply ink jet decals instead of the microthin vinyl we paid top dollar for. If they took the vehicle apart, they would epoxy it back together instead of using rivets. The small replacement rivets were hard to find and expensive. For me the result was that I've been trying to unload what's left of my parts, supplies and decals inventory because I just can't do a custom for less than $25 and the last one I sold went for $10. 

I know that ebay isn't the same as doing craft shows, but it was easier to reach our more limited clientele there and I had neither the time, nor inclination to pursue sales at the few diecast shows that existed (they still do and many of the original customizers moved solely to that venue). I have no qualms with anyone doing the best they can and wanting to get paid for it. But I have little tolerance for those who see someone selling a quality product and thinking, "Hey, I can do that." only to put as little effort as possible into a product and try to reap the benefits. I am NOT saying that this is the case with this older gentleman. I don't know him and can't (and wouldn't) make that judgement. He may very well be doing the best he can and God bless him. When I run into another penturner who appears to be in need of the knowledge that can be gleaned from sites like this, I provide the information and hope they take advantage. Sites like IAP have done nothing but improve my craft and for that I am very thankful.[]


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## bkc (Oct 24, 2007)

Well said Texatdurango!

I was told about this forum when I first started making pens. And I will say a BIG thank you to the one that have been kind enough to help me learn. But.... I have detected an undercurrent of snobbery in some that really makes me wonder. Do new pen makers pose that much of a threat that you'd prefer we NOT be here? I've seen VERY nice pens posted, but because the photography wasn't of professional quality, the pen was knocked. 

I understand the quality standpoint. I've made turkey calls for awhile. And they don't go out if I see one flaw. Right now with my pens, they're flawed, and I know it. But family is mighty forgiving of the flaws and know the pen is, if nothing else, a gift from the heart. I'll keep making 'gift pens', as for selling? I doubt my skill will ever reach that point.


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## ahoiberg (Oct 24, 2007)

you know, there's a lot of assumptions being made in this thread for the sake of argument and nothing is being accomplished. and no, no penturners want any other penturners to leave and no one is prejudiced against "older" people. just let it go.


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## Blind_Squirrel (Oct 24, 2007)

> _Originally posted by Texatdurango_
> ... what is the criteria for one to have a "professional" booth?



proÂ·fesÂ·sionÂ·al - following an occupation as a means of livelihood <u>_or for gain_</u>   http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/professional

I take that to mean if you have sold a pen for profit you are "professional".  That does not mean that you are good, just professional.


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## Texatdurango (Oct 24, 2007)

> _Originally posted by ahoiberg_
> <br />you know, there's a lot of assumptions being made in this thread for the sake of argument and nothing is being accomplished. and no, no penturners want any other penturners to leave and no one is prejudiced against "older" people. just let it go.



You are correct about a lot of assumptions being made, and you just added to the list.[]



> _Originally posted by Johnathan_
> <br />.... Now I'm not so heartless to not give an old guy a break trying to pay for his meds....



I won't start a debate over semantics but it sure sounds a bit condescending to me!  It's a good thing the old guy was given a break and permission to continue on... so he could continue to buy his medication!

Prejudiceâ€¦ maybe Iâ€™m all wrong, perhaps I should go look up the definition!


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## pilot1022 (Oct 24, 2007)

Johnathan , what was his price range? Apple Hill is a large area what ranch was he at? Co- Pilot wants to go up there this weekend.[]


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## Mikey (Oct 26, 2007)

Wow, lots of suppose this and that because the guy looked to be 80. If this person had a well set up booth and looked to be 35, you guys would have been all over him for producing crappy work and making us all look bad. Shame on you all. 

Fact is, the OP said the booth was a well set up professional looking booth with a lot of stuff for sale. Someone looking to pay for their meds doesn't invest thousands in pen making and display stuff if they need $50 for their meds. If you are selling goods that you claim is rare or durable and it is not, then you should be called out on it, regardless of age. Should I be given a break if my stuff doesn't look all that good because I bring my two kids t the show with me. What's the excuse then? I have to watch my kids all day and they bother me. I'm sure that will fly to those who produce works far better than mine and are trying to sell to the same market.

Face it, people (in general) who do shows and sell pens that are crappy looking because of finish or quality of workmanship are in the same group as the people who sell 24k slimlines for $4 on eBay.


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## bkc (Oct 26, 2007)

Don't include all in that 'shame on you'. Be he 35 OR 80, I don't care. Coming online complaining about their quality is bad manners. You want to comment on quality, do it to the person selling at the time. Having a fantastic display means nothing other than they set it up good. I've seen crap at high dollar shows that a 'big' named person is selling. Hmmm, I should buy his because of his name? Or buy something from someone just starting out? The beginner had better quality.


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## loglugger (Oct 26, 2007)

Quit a few older people don't have inter net or even know what it is all about. So if you didn't have all these good people on the fourms telling you what to do you could be in that old mans shoes, thinking you are doing one h--- of a job. Maybe he can't see very well or mabe his hands don't work like they used to, get to know him and you might learn a lot more than you think you do. It sounds like he should not be selling his pens but he could be selling square pens as he has the right to to just that. Yea I just couldn't keep quite, just ruded me the wrong way.
Bob


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## loglugger (Oct 26, 2007)

> _Originally posted by Mikey_
> <br />Wow, lots of suppose this and that because the guy looked to be 80. If this person had a well set up booth and looked to be 35, you guys would have been all over him for producing crappy work and making us all look bad. Shame on you all.
> 
> Fact is, the OP said the booth was a well set up professional looking booth with a lot of stuff for sale. Someone looking to pay for their meds doesn't invest thousands in pen making and display stuff if they need $50 for their meds. If you are selling goods that you claim is rare or durable and it is not, then you should be called out on it, regardless of age. Should I be given a break if my stuff doesn't look all that good because I bring my two kids t the show with me. What's the excuse then? I have to watch my kids all day and they bother me. I'm sure that will fly to those who produce works far better than mine and are trying to sell to the same market.
> ...




That is what I said before. They have the right to do that, what ever you or others think about it, it is still there right.
Bob


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## CrazyBear (Oct 27, 2007)

without quoting anyone. There seem to be a couple of points that are bugging some people here.

1) sales pitch
2) quality of work

Lets deal wit No 1 by asking you a question....Do you believe EVERYTHING that the salesman tells you whe you buy your used car.If you were a salesman( or in this case penturner) you would spot the cheats and half truths.would you spot them if you new nothing about the subject. You would still buy the car anyway if you liked it.

2) quality of work.. Take a walk through ANY art gallery and you will see work that you wouldnt give house room selling for big bucks. yet another artist would slaughter the technique or quality of the work.. This guy is obviously doing the best he can.  


Final thought. The old guy was at least 80. so he would have lived through WW2 and Vietnam.  Ever stopped to think HOW he lost those fingers!!!!!!


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