# The elusive $250 pen



## DCBluesman (May 29, 2005)

Iâ€™ve been turning pens for less than a year.  Iâ€™ve viewed every photo in every album and many photos that, for whatever reason, are no longer in albums.  Iâ€™ve also been a pen collector for about 20 yearsâ€¦give or take.

Every month and sometimes more frequently there is a thread which seems to center around creating a pen that buyers and/or collectors would pay a large sum for.  Iâ€™ll arbitrarily select $250 as a threshold, not because thatâ€™s the right number, but because I have to start somewhere.

The discussions donâ€™t often start with a question about how to make a valuable pen, but more often start with things like: what plating is the best; which pen kit (set of components?) is the best; how do you sell on the internet; or, where can I get better nibs.  All of these questions and discussion items make good fodder for discussion.  The threads are lively and often informative; however, they bog down a bit when the discussion moves to creating a really highly valued pen.

With that in mind, I started going back through the photo albums and visiting websites.  These visits were made in an attempt to answer two questions.   â€œAs a collector, which of these pens would I pay $250 for?â€  â€œWhy would I not pay $250 for this pen?â€

First, the disclaimers.  I did not revisit the nearly 4000 pictures on this site.  Neither did I visit all of the well over 100 website links that I found.  I was a bit arbitrary and selective.  That will and does skew my conclusions.  I admit it.  I also donâ€™t think it seriously detracts from the conclusions I have drawn.

In viewing the pens, I have learned that there are a significant number of members of this site who make beautiful pens.  My estimate, based solely on this little experiment, is that probably 100 members make pens which are superior to mine in shape, fit, and finish.  This is not self-deprecating, but simply a challenge to me to continue my efforts to make a better pen.

In these viewings, I found about a half dozen pens which would warrant my consideration if there were priced at $250.  That doesnâ€™t mean that I donâ€™t think there are quite a few $50, $100 and $150 pens.  

Keeping my collectorâ€™s hat on, I was forced to consider why there are only a half dozen pens that might spark a $250 response.  Itâ€™s certainly not the kit style.  The pens I selected ran the gamut.  Itâ€™s not the plating.  Photographs donâ€™t let you easily distinguish between 24k plating and 10k plating, between platinum and silver.  Itâ€™s not the nib manufacturer, nib material or feel of the pen.  

In my opinion, it boils down to the fact that most of us do not make pens that look like $250 pens.  Iâ€™ll now move into the first person and contain my comments to my album only.  Even on my finest creations (thus far), the fit may be excellent, but it is not flawless.  The finish may be stunning, but it is not perfect.  The shape may be pleasant, but it is not uniquely satisfying.  In short, not a single pen in my album looks like a pen I would even pick up if I saw a $250 price tag on it.   My conclusion thus far is that what keeps me from selling $250 pens is that I donâ€™t make a $250 pen.  Pretty simple.

That leads me to question what does a $250 pen look likeâ€”in other peopleâ€™s eyes?  To attempt to answer that question, I went to a number of websites.  These were selected based on different factors like the â€œWowâ€ factor from posts on this site, the experience fact, Guild Membership and the like.  Again, this is not a scientifically drawn sample.

What I found is fairly interesting.  Across the board, some of the highest quality pens made by our peers are priced at $35 to $165.  There are a few exceptions, but darned few!  That speaks volumes.  Many of us know pens, collect pens, understand the market place for pens.  With all of that information, we do not put our pens in the category of being worth $250.

What are the implications of my study and analysis (and I use that term loosely)?  

We need to spend more time working on honing our skills.  We have the weapons in our arsenal to make $250 pens, but until we do, it wonâ€™t make much difference if we have platinum plating or moon rock plating.  Technical perfection is the price of admission for the high-end, collectible market.  

We need to create pens that look good and feel good in the hand.  I do not weigh nor balance my pens.  How can I expect to compete against the 'best of the best' manufacturers for the $250 customer if I cannot guarantee fit and balance in the hand?  And donâ€™t get me started on nibs and nib materials.  An off-balance pen is just as off-balance with an 18k gold nib!

My conclusions follow.  Some of you will disagree and Iâ€™d look forward to hearing the responses.

1.	We donâ€™t sell $250 pens because we donâ€™t make $250 pens.
2.	We wonâ€™t sell $500 pens by adding 18k gold nibs because we donâ€™t make $250 pens.  The same applies to platings.
3.	As long as we focus on the externals, like kit design, kit finish and nib manufacture, we will not sufficiently focus on making a technically perfect pen EVERY TIME.
4.	If our pens are not technically perfect, we will not be able to regularly and seriously participate in the market for $250 pens.

In closing, remember that these are experiences and opinions.  Iâ€™m not holding out that my beliefs are correct.  Iâ€™m not interested in cutting off discussions on pen kit design, need for better nibs and plating options, or why a particular tool is better than another.  Debate away!  But donâ€™t forget to work on your skills.  Thatâ€™s the first step on the path to knowledge and accomplishment.  *In my (never humble) opinion.* [8D]


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## Bev Polmanteer (May 29, 2005)

Lou, You brought up some logical and interesting information. You have really put some effort into this and I appreciate it. I for one never have and probably never will achive that $250 pen, at least in my eyes! But, that doesn't stop me from striving to make it. Thanks for your (never humble) opinion![]


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## Mac In Oak Ridge (May 29, 2005)

Lou, Good topic, thank you for putting it out here.

After reading your screed the first thing that comes to mind is that what we make is not unique.  

We, most of us, are taking canned parts, choosing a piece of wood and then putting the kit together.  I may choose a beautiful piece of olive wood or decide to sacrifice one of the very few pieces of Zitan that I have.  Other than that there are hundreds of the same pen out there and thousands lurking in the pile of plastic bags on the shelf of suppliers. Someone else always has another blank as good or better and better is in the eye of the beholder.

There is a lot of very nice wood in the world.  Hardly any of it is unique.  Even if you find that one piece of wood 3/4" square and 5 1/4" long. It has grain to die for. It came from the tree that is now extinct, happened to have a burl on it and the rest of the world supply got burnt up at a Boy Scout camp out.  Who cares?  We as wood workers are very attached to wood, unusual wood makes our eyes glaze over and drool run out of the corner of our mouth.  However I am not going to pay you $250 for that pen made from the piece of wood mentioned above.  It would be very rare that you would run across someone that would give a rip where that fragment of tree stump came from.

The old saying about making a silk purse from a sows ear applies here and you point that out.  Putting a $100 nib on one of our pen kits doesn't make it a $250 pen.  It just makes it a home made pen with a nice nib.  

You can find all kinds of people raving about how much better that 18k nib writes than the gold plated steel ones we use.  I have no idea but lets say one in 10,000 people use a fountain pen regularly.  Out of those users I bet there isn't 1 in 1000 that could tell the difference, blind folded, between the writing feel between the two.  A poorly set up pen with a solid gold nib has no magic about it, it still is a poorly set up pen.  A person who "knows" fountain pens can make steel nibs write as beautifully and smoothly as any solid gold nib out there.  But to do that you need to work with them every day and understand how and why they work or don't work. This isn't something a weekend pen turner will learn very quickly.


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## Dario (May 29, 2005)

Lou,

I think most of the members here, judging from what little sample I've seen, are not striving to sell $250.00 pen or $500.00 just because there is little market for it.  I think quite a few I've seen have the talent and know how to make them though.

I am taking your word that there is no one selling on that range though because I haven't went through the sites as extensively as you did.


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## Rifleman1776 (May 29, 2005)

Lou is usually so logical and discerning with his posts and information that it hurts to digagree with him. But, this time I must submit that he missed a huge point with regards to high dollar items, in our case, pens. What you can sell an item for depends on who you are selling to. A $50.00 pen at your local craft show would eaisly bring $250.00 on Rodeo Drive. There are folks with large disposable incomes who are looking for ways to dispose of their money and brag that they paid high prices. So-called 'gourmet coffes' that sell for $35.00 a pound when it is really just $3.00 a pound coffee, $250.00 sunglasses which are worth only $10.00 but have some designers name on them, etc., etc. The product is almost secondary to the 'suck up' and status factors.


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## wicook (May 29, 2005)

Thanks, Lou, for a well thought out commentary. I know that my pens are not in the $250 range...not even close, actually. I consider myself to still be a novice who's quite content to sell a slimline pen for $25 CDN (that's about $20 USD). I expect that as I become more consistent in making pens with seamless transitions from wood to metal and finishes that don't have any flaws that I'll be increasing my price. That day, however, seems to still be a fair ways off... []


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## emsmith (May 29, 2005)

A very well thought out and reasoned post.[^]  You make excellent points about balance and fit.  I have only been turning pens since Christmas and getting the pen to 'feel right' is something that I am really struggling with.  Which leads me to the following questions -

As a collector have you started analyzing your collection for weights, design features, e.g., dimensions, proportions, types of curves used (elliptical or parabolic) and balance points?  If so would you be willing to share this information?  

Alternatively, do you know any museum/society that might have this type of information? Because I know nothing about pen collecting [] could you recommend some reference materials?

Thanks.


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## GregD (May 29, 2005)

Personally, I strive to make the $250 pen everytime I turn one. I don't think my skills are there yet. I make pens to sell. There is very little market for a $250 pen. 
If I turn a masterpiece and no one likes it, is it still a masterpiece? I don't think so. It might as well be a $20 pen.


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## Mainebowlman (May 29, 2005)

Pen kit: $5.95
Blank: $3.95
Shipping: $3.85
Glowing admiration by my wife: Priceless

I'll bet some of those service men and women with our freedom pens wouldn't part with them for $250. 

i Guess when my name gets as famous as Gucci, Hilfiger, etc. and/or I do get in a shop on Rodeo Drive (LOL), I can add that zero after my two digit price. However, odds are I will probably never make that pen that actually sells for $250; but as Bev said that journey (striving to make that kind of pen) is probably the unstated goal for many of us.

Jack (in the sun...finally!!!)


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## RussFairfield (May 29, 2005)

Links to some sites where you can learn about fountain pens. This is not a complete list, but it is enough to get you started.

http://pw1.netcom.com/~danhle/home.html
"The Fountain Pen Page". Good basic information, and some recommended pens to purchase for a beginner.

http://www.luttmanns.com/pens/intro.html
More information from a historical perspective

http://www.nibs.com/index.html
a lot of links to the manufacturers

http://www.penlovers.com/stylophiles.htm
"Stylophiles" is an online pen magazine. A lot of information and excellent photos.


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## emsmith (May 29, 2005)

> _Originally posted by RussFairfield_
> <br />Links to some sites where you can learn about fountain pens. This is not a complete list, but it is enough to get you started.
> 
> http://pw1.netcom.com/~danhle/home.html
> ...


Thank you.


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## PenWorks (May 29, 2005)

Way to much thought and analizing went into Lou's post for me to desipher today. The body & mind are moving way to slow after my little bash last night []
I have no problem with selling 45-125 pens all day long. That is my target market. I raise the anty when one comes off the lathe, that says, "I'm special, I'm perfect, I'm unussual" and for those, now that they are armed with gold nibs, they are $250.00 , but those are very rare occassions.


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## Darley (May 29, 2005)

Thanks Lou for this and I'm faraway to do a $250.00 pen, but like Anthony say it can happen in a one off situation by a special customer who want a special pen and depending what he want on it, I suppose that the price will go over the $ 250.00.


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## DCBluesman (May 29, 2005)

Lots of excellent points in these responses!  Russ, as always thank you for sharing your resources with us.  There's some value at each of those sites!  Frank--I hate to say this, but we aren't disagreeing. [] You bring up valuable points which were excluded from my post.  You'll have to find something else to disagree on!  Dario, I can't say that we don't have members whose portfolios include $250 pens.  That dollar amount was arbitrarily selected and I only went through a bunch of albums not nearly all of them.  Bev, Greg, Jack, Mac and Serge--you all make pens to be proud of.  I hope that you don't think I believe that you stop even one step short of your best effort.  Tony--you are absolutely right about one-off sales.  They definitely happen...thank heaven.  

emsmith (I'm sorry to address you like that, but your profile doesn't jog this old memory into remembering your first name)--I'm no expert when it comes to pens, but I can tell you some of the ways I discriminate.  Most pen collectors have their own thoughts and I doubt many follow mine.  Weight--I'm not crazy about pens that run much over 40 grams.  Most of mine have clips and at that weight they turn over and wrinkle a shirt pocket, even a highly starched one.  As for features, on newer pens I prefer pump (piston-type) fill systems.  I do use cartridges, but I'm never as happy with them.  After I've used my pens, I clean and dry them.  With cartridges, I throw out a lot of ink and add to the plastic at the landfill.  I like snap-closure pens.  I have both, but there's something satisfying about a clean, crisp SNAP! when you place a cap on the body of a well-made pen.  In general, I prefer a medium length pen, 6 to 6-1/2" in length.  My hand is fairly small for a man, so I prefer a body diameter around 0.5".  I like the pen to have balance just nib-side of the centerline.  The weight of the pen causes the nib to touch the paper, rather than the pressure of my finger.

If anyone is interested in "the other side of the coin", there is a Pen Collectors Society whose site can be found at http://www.pencollectors.com/ .


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## leehljp (May 29, 2005)

I believe in setting my goals high. "Ah, but a man's reach should exceed his grasp, or what's a heaven for?" I have just begun pen turning and I may never reach such a high goal in getting the combination of 1. material. 2. design, 3. finish  and 4. Marketing/Photography - to equal $250.00, but my goal is just that of Brownings and Lou's. I am not afraid to fail and fail again trying. I know it may take time, but I keep trying for each to be its best. Trying for me is on the extended timeline as I currently do not have the time daily and sometimes weekly to do this.

I ruined about 15 slimline blanks trying perfecting my finishing technique. My focus was on finding a finish that would be beautiful, consistently reproducible and lasting. Now that I have the basics down, I am moving on to design and wood selection.  I am not a artist in this field, but I am learning.

The problem with the $250 pen is that by the time I arrive at making a pen that will bring that, Cokes will cost $10.00 a can! []


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## emsmith (May 29, 2005)

Thanks.

I updated my profile  - I didn't realize that my name wasn't provided.


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## Daniel (May 29, 2005)

Lou,
I find this to be a very interesting statment on a subject that does seem to come up time and time again without really having anything strognly stated in regard to it.
Being an opinion of course it would be only one of many many more. but to this date I believe it si the clearest opinion I have seen on this subjec. in reading it I reflected onmy own turning and related skills and tend to agree with you very much. I to thing that the occasional outstanding pen from my lathe. Regardless of why that particular pen is outstanding, does elude to that $250.00 dollar range. used as you did as an arbitrary number. but I consistantly see the elemints and more that you mention that prevemts all if not the majority to be outstanding.
I have made some progress recently in that direction. and can identify a few areas that would improve my finished product. in all I think this conversation has many nooks and crannies that would be a benefit to explore. what is good balance? what is exceptional fit and finish?
thanks for digging into one more of those areas that seem to want to eternally remain dim.


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## timdaleiden (May 30, 2005)

I don't think that most of us here are trying to make $250.00 pens. 

 We are mostly hobbyists, small business owners, and wood workers (artists). 

 For the most part, (I think) we just enjoy turning out useful and attractive pens that make great gifts for people that are hard to shop for. 

  If somebody is sufficiently skilled, motivated, and well equipped, they could easily produce pens that could justifiably be sold for $250.00 or more. For the most part, this group is not focused on that goal, IMHO.


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## DCBluesman (May 30, 2005)

> _Originally posted by timdaleiden_
> <br />If somebody is sufficiently skilled, motivated, and well equipped, they could easily produce pens that could justifiably be sold for $250.00 or more. For the most part, this group is not focused on that goal, IMHO.


267 views in 12 hours tells me something totally different, but that's just my (never humble) opinion.


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## JimGo (May 30, 2005)

Tim,
I'm focused on that goal, just a long way from achieving it!  []  But I like to think that I'm getting closer all the time.


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## timdaleiden (May 30, 2005)

> _Originally posted by DCBluesman_
> <br />
> 
> 
> ...



 Lou, 

I viewed this thread numerous times myself. The number of views does not necessarily indicate the number of actual people viewing this thread, or actual interest in producing high end pens. 

 Perhaps you should re-evaluate the value (or importance) of your opinion. It is your opinion, one of many opinions. What a boring and stagnant world we would live in, if everyone agreed on everything. 

 I am always interested in what other people think, but I do not contend that my view of things must be accepted by others. Everyone is different, and so I feel no discomfort in using the IMH(humble)O acronym. You obviously feel differently, so I guess I have to live with that. 

  BTW, I stand by my previous post, and humble opinion.


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## ldimick (May 30, 2005)

I must admit that Lou's post, like so many others, have made me pause to think and evaluate the topic quite a bit tonight. In many ways I agree with Lou. But I think that a different slant on this is available.

One of our limiting factors is the material that we work with. First, with wood it is dificult to have a high quality pen that can be consistently reproduced that would allow us to make limited edition runs. It is the individual character of every single pen that makes woood so beautiful in my eyes. A piece of titanium has a higher cost associated with it than most pieces of wood we buy. Part of the perceived value of a pen is the cost of the material. For example, look at the cost of BOW. It has a perception that allows the price to be placed higher than similar woods, as does stabilized woods.

The next piece of material is the nib. The truth is that most people cannot tell a good nib from a mediocre nib - except for perhaps the $250 buyer. As far as the rollerballs I am incredibly shocked at the junk that gets sold as part of our kits. When I pay $25 for a Statesman kit I want a refill that is not coming to come apart and leak ink all over my cap. (Not a dig at CSUSA since it is the same refill that others use.)

We must also consider the major tool that most of us use - the lathe. It has a lot of limitations in it as far as what we can do to customize a pen. It is going to be round. Unless we go to a CNC type machine we are not going to be producing different shapes. Unless we think outside of the box (I hate that phrase) we just make the same thing as other people with a slightly different shape or color.

Next comes the kits that we can choose from. There are shortcomings with EVERY single kit available. Look at all of the threads that we have had on plating, thread fit, etc. Some of the nicest pens (IMHO) are the Statesmen, Gentleman, and Baron kits. But each of those has issues that detract from them. I would like to be able to get a black titanium in a Jr Statesman but it's not available. I would like to see some different bands as well. But without some expensive tools I don't think I can make what I am looking for.

One thing that I have seen lacking in every pen turning group or site that I have browsed is a serious discussion on pen design. Not normal kit design but how to determine which color combinations are preferred, ornation, etc. - The aesthetics - We seem to be more interested in how much we can charge for a pen than we are in determining what the market wants.

If somoene is willing to pay $250 for a pen then somoeone is making what the market wants.

As far as not seeing any $250 pens here - well I have seen some from Lou, Pat, and some others that would claim a $250 price tag in the right market and setting.`

I firmly believe that most of the peopel here could make a $250 pen if they wanted to spend the time and effort to do so. But IMHO it would not be worth the time or effort in terms of $$ per hour to do so. It would be very satisfying to be able to claim it but in terms of $$ per hour I don't think it would be worth it.


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## Daniel (May 30, 2005)

Lynn,
 In my opinion your comment touches on several reasons that the $250 pen is not more of a focus in this group.
the number of hits does indicate the interest level of the subject matter. wether that be pro or con interest, there is still obviously above average interest in this thread.
I also see that lack of conversation concerning more advanced design. As I stated before to Lou, thanks for stepping outside the norm. I don't see enough of that. risk of being flamed for asking the questions others have not is one huge reason others would remain silent. Silence from those that know what it would take to make a $250 pen could be a big reason the presute of that pen is not more obvious.


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## Old Griz (May 30, 2005)

> _Originally posted by DCBluesman_
> <br />
> 
> 
> ...


Lou, in my never humble opinion, 267 views in 12 hours does not constitute an opinion that our members are focused on creating $250 pens... it does constitute an opinion that they were curious about what this thread was about.. 
IMHO, the fact that the majority of those posters did not respond to the thread said to me "OK, fine and dandy.. not exactly what I am interested in.. I will never be able to do it anyway".. I do that in a lot of threads myself.. I will read them and if it is not my cup of tea, I go my merry way... and I don't doubt that a lot of members do that to my threads.. 
As for the $250 pen issue... I would love to be able to produce a pen that sold for that kind of money... maybe, God willing, I someday will.  But am I focusing my pen turning on that goal.. not at all... I am focusing my turning on producing the best pen I can make and sell at a fair market price for the area I live in.  If I lived in the Balt/DC area, I am sure my pens would sell for more than they do here in Western MD.. 
But the said truth of marketing our products is that they are not necessities, they are luxuries and therefore the pricing is usually reflected by the amount of extra cash flow the people in your area have.  If you  live in a affluent area, you can usually get more for your product..


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## PenWorks (May 30, 2005)

> _Originally posted by ldimick_
> <br />
> 
> I firmly believe that most of the peopel here could make a $250 pen if they wanted to spend the time and effort to do so. But IMHO it would not be worth the time or effort in terms of $$ per hour to do so. It would be very satisfying to be able to claim it but in terms of $$ per hour I don't think it would be worth it.



I whole heartingly agree with that statement Lynn. On my nicest pens commanding that kind of money. If you compare the $$ per hour, it is a loosing propisition. But the satisfaction of the artistic expression, is priceless and worth the effort. []


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## btboone (May 30, 2005)

I find the statement to be true for the even more expensive ones.  They take me weeks of design and effort.  At this time, I can't "afford" to make $1500 pens because they take too much time!


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## RussFairfield (May 30, 2005)

Let's get real with this conversation. We cannot make a $250 pen from a plastic bag of parts. Lets face the fact that a kit pen is the same as a paint-by-number picture. Someone else designed it; and then they provided us with the bushings, parts, and tools to make it. Other than the quality of the fit and finish and barrel materials, they all look like the picture in the catalog.  There is nothing wrong with doing this, but we can never make the $250 pen that way. 

What we can do is make a $100 pen that will compete very well with the commercial pens that sell for a similar price and use similar plated parts and steel nibs. We can even add the value of the gold nib to the same pen, and sell it for $150. 

But, the $250 pen is the entry level into a piece of "art". And, who defines "art"? The BUYER; and there are buyers for the $250 pen out there for the finding. But, they aren't going to pay that price for a "kit pen" with a steel nib. We may not agree with their perception of a "kit pen", but they have the money, and they are calling the shots.

What does it take to make a $250 collectors pen?? As a minimum, the $250 pen has to have a gold nib; not because it is better, but because that is what the customer demands. That is the reason for these discussions. But there is more than just the nib. We have to start thinking outside of the "plastic bag", and start designing our own unique pens. We have to move beyond pens that are made with brass tubes, bushings, and Jet Mini lathes; and we have to quit worrying about who sells the cheapest pen kits. 

Getting into the "big money" requires that we spend some money. We have to start thinking in terms of a small machinists lathe and a  milling machine as prerequisits for making the $250 pen. We will have to start thinking about making our own parts and fittings. We may want to learn silversmithing and plating techniques or work with someone who has those skills.

But most of all, we will have to learn the language of the fountain pen and learn how to write with one of them. Unless we are willing to learn and show others how to use them, we cannot sell fountain pens at any price. 

Remember "Penmanship"?? It hasn't been taught in schools for 40 years. We live in a ballpoint world. We use a ballpoint pen by pressing it into the paper, and ripping through the paper is the only limit to how much pressure we can apply. The fountain pen glides across the surface. A ballpoint user writes with their finger movement. A fountain pen writer uses a whole arm movement, resting on the heal of the hand, with the pen resting on the paper with no more than its own weight. Knowing how to do that is "Penmanship". If you don't know what I am talking about, you will NEVER sell a fountain pen to anybody at any price.

It has been said several times that these discussions of the $250 pen are out of place on this forum. I disagree with that. I thought this forum was about "penturners", learning to become a penturner, and then learning how to become a better penturner. Part of becoming that better penturner can sometimes involve taking our craft beyond the kit, learning about the advanced techniques, and persuing the "art" of the pen. If that doesn't belong here, then where should it be?? 

Feel free to disagree. I hope I didn't get too many people mad at me. If I did, that's their problem.


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## Thumbs (May 30, 2005)

<b>Lou</b>, I hope you appreciate this place as much as I do! [] Great discussion and observations about "your observations" so far!  Both "Pro" and "Con"!  I agree and disagree with just about everyone's posting here!  It's just great!  What a great place to suffer other viewpoints![]

<b>And you told somebody I was just a curmudgeon!.....  Ha!</b>[}]


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## C_Ludwigsen (May 30, 2005)

Russ, you are right on and make excellent (ball)points.  I couldn't agree more.


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## arehrlich (May 30, 2005)

Russ,

I agree with most of your post, however IMHO, I don't believe we all need to become master machinists to produce the "$250" pen.  What we do need is an enhanced sense of creativity and the ability to use the various materials around us in a unique and artful way.

I've seen some incredible pens developed around 'kit' parts.  Just look at some of the ones highlighted on the Penmaker's Guild site.  They are innovative pieces of art.  Did they use a milling machine and machinist's lathe.  Probably not... just as the ceramic artist doesn't need an electronically controlled multi-speed turntable - a foot operated one works just as well.

The "art" is what seperates the high end collector's pens from the everyday, albeit expensive, desk pens that we might create from a Gentleman's or Jr. Gent's kit.

Add in intricate art carvings; scrimshaw; mother of pearl inlay under a number of layers of hand rubbed lacquer... and bring it to the right audience, and you'll have a pen that could sell for $250+.

The problem is that most of us make kit pens because it's fun and somewhat profitable (if you count the satisfaction factor).  And there is nothing wrong with this.  There is a bigger market for the $25 to $150 handcrafted pens then there is for the $250+ pieces of art.

Can the 'kit pen' become a piece of art... I believe it can, but there is lot's of work that would have to go into it.  

I'm certain that there are a good number of artisans in the group, but most want to go to the fair and sell a bunch of pens.

Room for all... but I'd sure like to have the time, talent, and drive to create a work of art... not necessarily for the $250, but for the satisfaction of creating something with my own hands that someone is willing to give me that much money for.

Alan


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## JimGo (May 30, 2005)

Alan,
I think you managed to say what I said here: http://www.penturners.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6754 , only in a much more succinct way.  Well said.


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## RussFairfield (May 30, 2005)

A couple comments and clarifications.

There is a large gray area between the pens that sell for $150 and those that sell for Lou's $250 number. However there will always be two things that a $250 fountain pen MUST have, and that is a gold nib, and the finest of craftsmanship. Those are the demands of that market.

Everyone has been discounting the size of the market for the $250 pen. There IS a market for that pen, and it isn't insignificant. Just because we can't see it doesn't mean that it isn't there. I have been selling between 20 and 30 pens a year to the $100-150 market, and I see the $250 market as being the bigger. My only reason for not breaking into that higher market has been because I haven't been making a pen with a gold nib. I have already described in an earlier post where that effort is taking me. The risk is that nobody will want my "$250 pen" that I will have to sell for $500. 

No, the machine shop is not for everybody, just as everybody will not want to make a $250 pen. Anthony will be giving us a way to get closer to that market with a finely crafted kit pen with his offering of the gold nib. But getting past that market, and into pens that sell for more than the $250 will soon get us into having to cut our own threads to escape the limitations of the kit with its brass tubes and plated fittings. I don't know how to do that with any degree of repeatability within the confines of a Mini-lathe, and off the shelf parts. Repeatability becomes a factor when we have 4 to 6 hours invested in a pen and making only 1 in 10 isn't good enough. 

Again, one persons opinion. Feel free to disagree, but I will only listen to those who have "walked the mile" and really tried to make a $250 pen.

And now I will shut up on this topic.[][]


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## Mac In Oak Ridge (May 30, 2005)

Amen Russ,  

As I said in my first post to this thread, you won't find a $250 pen in a bunch of little plastic bags from one of our suppiers.


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## driften (May 30, 2005)

> _Originally posted by penworks_
> <br />
> 
> I whole heartingly agree with that statement Lynn. On my nicest pens commanding that kind of money. If you compare the $$ per hour, it is a loosing propisition. But the satisfaction of the artistic expression, is priceless and worth the effort. []



I agree... the idea of the $250 pen (or more) is more of an artistic expression.

I would like to make a $250+ pen and some day I will. Many here could make one but don't feel the need to. Its more of a market decision then one of ability. I think the higher up you go in market the smaller the market is and its harder to reach that market. The true collectors are out there and they are much more demanding then the $20 -$80 pen buyers.

I would like to have the discussions of what makes a collector pen. I love the discussions on  building around a 14k nib or where should be the best balance or weight of a pen. I think only a small group of members here think its worth the trouble but for us few its important. I for one am trying to think outside the kit. I don't want to be just a kit maker. I don't know that the return on investment will be very high but its an "artistic" thing.

On another note here is what one pen company (Nakaya) feels makes the "ideal fountain pen"

Design Concept 1 : Barrel must be thick. Radius of the barrel is 13mm. The length with the cap at the end of the barrel should be a little less than 160mm. Length of the nib 22mm. The balance point is in the rear, at the point of 56-57%. This is the golden rule of fountain pen.


Design Concept 2 : Nib must be big. A 14k gold big nib is highly durable and is suitable for heavy writing. There are 9 point styles, ultra fine, very fine, fine, fine /soft, medium, broad, very broad, ultra broad and music. Any professional writer can find his/her favorite point size.


Design Concept 3 : it must be treasured collectors. Every single pen is handmade. Design is suitable to be called "art craft" and never be boring.


Design Concept 4 : they must fit the hand. To fit the hand and prevent from it from slipping, deep convolutions are carved throughout the barrel. These convolutions reflect the heat of the hand when the pen is held. They work like a radiator of a car. This prevents the air in the barrel from expanding, and results in a consistent flow of ink. The feel of this "convoluted holder" is very unique and is the first design of its kind in the history of fountain pen manufacturing.


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## Rudy Vey (May 30, 2005)

This is a quite interesting site! There is also a page with the dimensions of the pens, and their weight, as total and as the pen without the cap. Very good information on the weight - you see the weight for the barrel, i.e. the writing part is from just a tad under 10 g to a maximum of 17 gramms!! The heaviest pen listed is 28.7 gramms. This is very light and a discussion we had some time ago here about the weight came back to my mind (a pen is "cheap" if it is a lightweight). I remember that Anthony once made a very light pen by leaving the brass tubes out, can't remember the exact weight, though.


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## Skordog (May 30, 2005)

Wow!  This has been quite an interesting discussion.  I happen to agree with a little bit of several of the main debaters here but not wholeheartedly with any one of them.

First off, I am still somewhat new to this pen obsession as I have only been turning for 6 months.  I do believe that with the right kit and nib  and the right customer you should be able to produce a $250 pen.  

BUT....(and this is a guess) you also need to produce a pen that feels and writes fantastic in addition to looking good.

Having just started looking into the world of fountain pens it is obvious that there is a very large market for incredibly expensive pens.  And to tell you the truth I don't find all that many of them attractive.  So what is it that commands those $300, $400, $1000+ prices?

Part of it is obviously designer labels and limited editions, but I have to believe that these pens must feel wonderful to write with.  Sort of like driving a high end car.  Same functionality as the lower end car but it just feels better.  So weight and balance have to come into play.  And this is something that is going to be much harder to control with wood as compared to metals and plastics which have a more consistent density.

Just to set the record straight about my intentions - I am not trying to build and sell the $250 pen.  At this point I have given away 50 pens and have only sold 1.  But I find this discussion very interesting which is why I am one of those hundreds of viewers.

But I am interested to explore the world of fountain pens to find out why it is so attractive to so many affluent people.  I actually have not written with a fountain pen since I was a kid and I'm sure whatever I used back then was the $5 disposable kind.


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## DCBluesman (May 31, 2005)

Thanks to all who have contributed to the discussion regarding high end pens.  My perspective has been expanded.


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## Mac In Oak Ridge (May 31, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Rudy Vey_
> <br />This is a quite interesting site! There is also a page with the dimensions of the pens, and their weight, as total and as the pen without the cap. Very good information on the weight - you see the weight for the barrel, i.e. the writing part is from just a tad under 10 g to a maximum of 17 gramms!! The heaviest pen listed is 28.7 gramms. This is very light and a discussion we had some time ago here about the weight came back to my mind (a pen is "cheap" if it is a lightweight). I remember that Anthony once made a very light pen by leaving the brass tubes out, can't remember the exact weight, though.



Rudy,
From what you posted, I take it you are looking at a web site somewhere.  Can you provide a link or direction to it?


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## Rudy Vey (May 31, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Mac In Oak Ridge_
> <br />
> 
> 
> ...



Go to:
http://www.nakaya.org/eindex.html

Then select "Product" and here you can see the following: details of their pens, their dimensions and other infos about their pens. As I said a very informative site.
HTH


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## Rudy Vey (May 31, 2005)

Another interesting link in regards to Nakaya:

http://www.stutler.cc/pens/nakaya_visit/index.html


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## btboone (May 31, 2005)

I've been trying to figure out the motives of a high end pen buyer as well.  For some, it's the look and status symbol of a fine pen.  It says to others that they have arrived.  I would suppose the majority of buyers fit into this catagory.  

For some, it's just because they desire to own the thing of artistry and beauty and the cost is not really the point. For those people, it's about what they think and not what others think.  These include the crazy multithousand dollar pens that don't fit the usual molds.

For others, it's a collector thing and trying to guess which ones will command the best price at some point in the future. They look a lot at the company history and lot size in hopes of making good investments. 

There are also a few that really are fountain pen junkies, but not many of them buy a $250+ pen just as a writing instrument.  There are certainly more cost effective ways to do that.  They tend to go to the pen shows and find cheaper classic pens.

There's probably a few other catagories of people that I'm not yet aware of.  I think the first rule of selling those types of pens is to figure out who the buyers are and what their motivation is.


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## ctEaglesc (May 31, 2005)

As soon as the topic on this post mentioned fountain pens I knew it was way over my head.
I have found it extremely interesting and informative.
Who would have ever thought a post like this would have gotten this much interest and participation in such a short time?Over 700hundred views and 40 repies!
I had started a post regarding a friend I wanted to make a "thank you" pen for.It got lost in the shuffle.
I have a friend here in Camden
www.philiph.com who asked me to display my pens in his gallery during an art show.
He had sent over 200 invitations for the event and I was quite shocked that I was asked. After all it was his"show"
(May have wanted small turnings to make his look bigger)
In thanks I wanted to turn pen for him,I asked what he liked to write with.It was a name I don't recall but Aurora was in it.
I brought a pen I had turned to see if he could write with it,Could not..Funny thing is I could write with the one I had brought for a test but could not write with his.
The "Aurora" he had was purchased because of the price and how it wrote.
The pen cost $150.00 and was simple in design.
Phil can buy any pen he wants.He purchased that one for reasons that appealed to him.
The secret is an unassuming black sleek looking pen that writes well for someone who knows how to use it.
There you go problem solved,throw in a diamond inlay or something to bump the price.
I guess it doesn't have to do with the blank or apointments in the case of fountain pens it's the steak not the sizzle.


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## jdodom (May 31, 2005)

From my some what limited knowledge about the history of some of the name brand pen makers, they did not start off selling high priced pens.  They started out with an idea or new inovation and with hard work were able to make a name that is now associated with the high end pen market.  This did not happen over a few years but decades.  Btw how many pen makers are no longer around?


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## RussFairfield (Jun 1, 2005)

An interesting observation.
All of the good ones, Waterman, Parker, Pelikan, Faber, Sheaffer, Mont Blanc, etc. are still making fountain pens. The junk, Esterbrook, Scripto, and the like, have disappeared.


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## arehrlich (Jun 1, 2005)

It just goes to show that quality still sells.  There have been a lot of companies that have tried to bring out cheap FPs and found no market, yet Mont Blanc is selling well, along with Namiki.  Both of these companies have low end pens that sell for about $100, and go up from there.

The public perceives cheap fountain pens as accidents waiting to happen.

Alan


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## Mainebowlman (Jun 1, 2005)

Lou, your great thread continues....

Everyone's comments have caused me to do a bit of web research (more to do) to see what other uniqueness is in these expensive pens. In addition to design, balance, detail, quality parts, and perfect trim and fit...there's a 'name'. The old brand name.  Parker, Schaffer, Namiki, Visconti, Aurora, Lamy, Montblanc.  

So maybe, in getting ready to produce those $250 pens, I need to establish a name for my line and inscribe it (or a logo) on all my pens from now on. Should I give my name a French, Italian or Japanese twist? Or should I just leave it as it and wait to hear some say: "Is that a &lt;i&gt;Savona&lt;/i&gt; you're writing with?" ?  So so much is in the marketing.

Seriously...I have thoroughly enjoyed this thread not for the dreams of wealth and fame, but just for all the catalystic (?) thoughts to make me stretch, expand, and get out of the kit pen box.  I'm going to try to find a store that sells those expensive pens and examine them to notice their detail, how they feel in my hand, and how they write. Then I'll have that first-hand visual-tactile experience to help me better evaluate my own work. Without this thread, I doubt I'd have gone out of my way to find those upscale pens. I probably wouldn't have thought about balance as much, or detail.

And if I ever DO make that elusive pen, it won't ever have a price tag on it because it will go to my best critic and biggest supporter, my wife.

Thanks to all for a great thread.

Jack (in the sun...maybe)


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## Mac In Oak Ridge (Jun 1, 2005)

> _Originally posted by RussFairfield_
> <br />An interesting observation.
> All of the good ones, Waterman, Parker, Pelikan, Faber, Sheaffer, Mont Blanc, etc. are still making fountain pens. The junk, Esterbrook, Scripto, and the like, have disappeared.


Russ, Funny you should mention Esterbrook.  I have two fountain pens in my pocket.  I use them every day. A Baron made of African Blackwood and a Esterbrook Student Pen that I bought in a junk store for $10.

I take the Baron out and it may write or it may not write.  I shake it, put it in a cup with the point down for a while, sometimes it writes sometimes it won't.  

I take the Esterbrook out and it will write every time. Has the original sack in it, fills from a bottle of ink. And works trouble free. Even after sitting over the Memorial day weekend with no use at all. First time put to paper and it writes.

Makes it hard to sell a pen to someone when you know it will give trouble.  I suspect a poor design of the feed assembly in the Baron.


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## Old Griz (Jun 1, 2005)

Mac, I have made a whole load of Baron fountain pens and sold almost all of them so far... I have 3 in the house that are used almost on a daily basis (at least one is) and have never had a failure to write with any of them.  All have Private Reserve ink in them.  I have also never had a Baron fountain pen come back from a customer with a failure to write (and who knows what ink is in them).  
I think that your across the board statement that the Baron has a poor feed assembly design is out of line... 
If that were the case, I think you would be seeing a load of complaints on the board here and BillB and Berea would be flooded with more complaints than they could handle...


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## arehrlich (Jun 1, 2005)

Does anyone know if the nib assembly of the Baron and Jr Gent is the same?

I have made a good number of Jr Gent's and have had not trouble with the ink flowing anytime that I use the pen... even after sitting for a week or more.

My only experience with the Baron was with the one that Shane sent over for me to look at.  That one definately did have feed problems.  I have a few Baron kits that I will make and test.

The assemblies look the same, but are they?

Alan


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## DCBluesman (Jun 1, 2005)

Alan--the nib assembly is interchangeable between the two kits and the nibs themselves can be moved from one to the other.  I can't swear that the feed is identical, but it looks awfully darned close uner 3.5X magnification.

I've probably not made as many Barons as other on the site have, but I'm up to about 40.  I test each one with the converter.  Thus far I have been pleasantly surprised that with just a couple of minutes break-in I have gotten good results.  I have had to use a small piece of acetate on two of the nibs to smooth them a hair.  This is in no way an attempt to negate that problems that some of you have experienced.

Some of you may want to work the Jr Gent/Baron nibs a bit more.  They are what is currently described as semi-flexible nibs.  In parlance of the older (pre-1950) nibs, they would probably be classified as firm nibs.  Firmer nibs require greater finger pressure (but still not as much as a ballpoint).  The reason that all nibs have become firmer while still using the old descriptors has been the advent of the ballpoint.  Ballpoint pens invite using pressure to apply ink to paper.  The intent of fountain pens is to flow or guide ink onto paper.  Since modern society tends to grind their ballpoints, the old nibs broke down quickly, thus encouraging manufacturers to make them stiffer.

If you'd like an inexpensive test of our nibs against a modern steel nib, order a Lamy Safari from Tony Turchetta for $25 and compare.  It comes with a very nice, flexible steel nib that is made in Germany.  While I do prefer the Lamy nib, it's not terribly far off from what I have experienced with the Baron and Jr. Gent.


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## arehrlich (Jun 1, 2005)

Lou,

Thanks for the response and your observations.

I have a Jr. Gent that I use as my everyday pen.  I love the feel of the nib.  It is a little firm but its very responsive and provides great flow.  Although it is sold as a medium nib, I find it much closer to the fine that I prefer.

I've made about 10 of the Jr. Gents and, like you, tested each of them prior to giving them to their new owners.  I have had no trouble with any one of them.

I assumed that the Baron unit is the same, but my one experience the Baron (Shane's pen) and now reading some posts here, I am wondering.

I'll make the Baon's that I have and report back.  Hopefully I'll be as happy with them as I've been with the Jr Gents.

BTW - I have the Lamy Safari and I like the feel of the nib on my Jr. Gent better.  The only pen that I own that I like a little better is my Mont Blanc.  The nib is softer and a little finer.

I also have two Namiki hidden point fountain pens (no removable cap - works with a click like a ball point), but both of them tend to skip a bit more than either the Mont Blanc or the Jr. Gent.

This has been a wonderful thread.  Lot's of great thoughts and insights.  Let's keep it up.

Alan


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## driften (Jun 1, 2005)

I have been using a Baron FP for a few weeks now and have never had a problem with it. I also have a Lamy Safari  and don't see a little diffrence in how they write. The Safari does write better in side to side then the Baron but they both write about the same on the down stroke. Maybe with more time writing with the Baron it will be as nice as the Safari since they are kinda close. But they have both been good at writing every time for me.


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## Mac In Oak Ridge (Jun 1, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Old Griz_
> <br />Mac, I have made a whole load of Baron fountain pens and sold almost all of them so far... I have 3 in the house that are used almost on a daily basis (at least one is) and have never had a failure to write with any of them.  All have Private Reserve ink in them.  I have also never had a Baron fountain pen come back from a customer with a failure to write (and who knows what ink is in them).
> I think that your across the board statement that the Baron has a poor feed assembly design is out of line...
> If that were the case, I think you would be seeing a load of complaints on the board here and BillB and Berea would be flooded with more complaints than they could handle...


Tom, Since I have the pen in my hand I think I am a better judge of what I see.


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## Old Griz (Jun 1, 2005)

Mac, You are a better judge of the individual pen that you have.. not of all the Barons in general...


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## arehrlich (Jun 2, 2005)

Just received my latest copy of the Rotarian magazine and, what to my surprise, did I find on the back cover... nothing else but the elusive $250 (I don't know how many zeros to follow this with) pen.

A limited run of 100 pens.
Its body made of 18-carat white gold.
Its clip and body have diamonds inlaid
AND it has an 18-carat gold nib.

This pen was designed for Rotary's 100 year anniversary.

Alan


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## csb333 (Jun 3, 2005)

I think a whole lot of you are making $250.00 pens. Most of the kits I buy have attractive nibs and write great. How long does it take for that machine to make that $325 Mont Blanc Diplomat out of plastic ? Each one of our pens are different and are truly hand made. If you rated them on the commercial high end pen scale, many people are making high dollar pens. I think that if they were marketed to high dollar customers many of us could receive dividends. The problem is that we do not have million dollar advertising budgets. I have seen many pens that are of the highest quality and deserve the $250. Im sorry that these people are not receiving that kind of money. I have seen many in the DC Bluesman album that I think are in that category.
Maybe it will happen someday- Chris


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## timdaleiden (Jun 4, 2005)

Chris

  There are a lot of great pens posted here, by a lot of talented folks. I think that very few (if any) of these nice pens would ever sell for $250.00. 

  Russ made me chuckle when he compared kit pens to a "paint by number" painting. It was funny, but very true. How many art collectors would pay big bucks for a very nicely done "paint by number" painting? All are "one of a kind", some folks may not have used the number code as designed, but they are still "kit" paintings. If you paste a $225.00 dollar diamond somewhere on the painting, it will increase it's value by just that much (maybe a bit more). 

  If someone wants to make these very high end pens, they will need artistic ability and skill, great motivation, and the tools to make their own parts (or pay someone else to make these parts). 

  Someone may occasionally run across a person who has money to burn, and may sell a very nice kit pen for $250.00, but that is going to be a rare thing, IMHO.


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## PenWorks (Jun 4, 2005)

I stock about 50 high price or limited edition pens in my shop from a variety of companies. Anywhere from 250 to 1,200.00 Bellieve me, they don't fly off the shelf. But then again, that is not my market. but they sure make my 125.00 pens sell pretty easy by having them there.. Also, they are nothing special, different resins, some sterling fittings,excellant fit and finish, but they have a name and are limited, like Gary's froggie pens. The higher price pens I stock, are the ones I like only. This way, if they never sell at least I'll have some nice looking pens to write with. Also, the Delta Limited Edition Julius Caesar Pen came out in 1999, limited to about 100 in each line or grade. that pen took 5 years to sell out and the standard grade FP was about $650 retail.


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## JimGo (Jun 4, 2005)

Wow, that's an interesting statistic Anthony.  Thanks!  Kind of gives a good perspective on the market.


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## Ben (Jun 5, 2005)

> _Originally posted by RussFairfield_
> <br />Links to some sites where you can learn about fountain pens. This is not a complete list, but it is enough to get you started.
> 
> http://pw1.netcom.com/~danhle/home.html
> ...



Thanks Russ... As a result of these links, I was able to do my homework, and ended up getting a brand new Shaeffer Prelude on e-bay shipped to my door for $25 bucks! My next aquisition will hopefully be a Cross Solo... Thanks again for the links and thanks everybody for such an amazing group!!!


Ben


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## woodbutcher (Jun 6, 2005)

You can never get more for a pen than you ask. The buyer cannot give more than he has, wether willing or not. Take any well made and finished pen. In some markets it is worth $25.00 if you are lucky. Take the same pen to a better market and expect $50.00. Move up a notch and you're in $75.00 territory. Rembrandt didn't paint a Rembrandt every time. Some pens for whatever the reason are hard to sell. I call those "Gifts". Nothing wrong with them they just will not bring top dollar. When I present a product only the best is there. When I started making pens I could make 8 to 10 pens a day. However after doing this for 3yrs and a lot of experience I am now able to do 4to 5 pens on a really great day. Usually 2 to 4 pens a day. Most of those I consider to be excellent. Still, occasionally I make a "Gift". Most of my clientel are professionals or business owners. They don't stagger backwards grabbing at their chest when I quote a price for my writing instruments. Please allow me to get off this soap box and go do some turning. I hope this helps in some small way. By the way I would like to thank everyone from the creators of this website to all those who post for all the tips and pointers. I can truthfully say I am so proud to be listed amoung the ranks,
                                     Jim


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## Jim in Oakville (Jun 7, 2005)

Hi Lou,

Great post and well responded too by our group.  Like you I have been turning pens for less than 5 years.  When I started I really didn't care too much about selling them and my quality was poor (bad fitting hardware, dull wood, bad finishes, etc.).  Some of my work sold and I got excited, nothing more than $30, I was giving away my stuff, but really the quality was poor.

Being self taught meant that I learnt on my own, with little feedback.  My pens got better as I discovered better turning methods, sanding and finishes, but enough so that I now was comfortable with selling my work.

I think it was about a year ago though when things happened for me in pen turning, new materials, this forum and better advice from those in the know.  My quality skyrocketed in a week when I started using stabilized burls, bowling ball and acyrlics...suddenly that combined with the better kits from CSUSA and my sales jumped quickly.

So, what does a $250 pen look like, I don't know.  My work now sells on it's own, by word of mouth and via a small part of my furniture web site.  I have sold pens for $200, a few, but mostly in and around $100-150.  Is my work good?  I think it's getting better all the time, but my bottom line is that we here share and we learn, I would not be inspired to do this if it was not for that.  I know my work is getting better when I hear what my customers say to me, there is a point where they now don't ask for the discount, they want the pen!

We had a turner at our club at the Golden Horseshoe turn a three sided pen using a method called therming.  He used rare and exotic asian hard woods that cost more than I can remember.  He said pens like his sell for $4-7K, collectors buy them....so what does a $250 pen look like???  I think you have to ask your customers..


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## Mainebowlman (Jun 7, 2005)

So, Jim, what exactly is therming?  All I can Google about it is in a book by Mike Darlow.

Jack


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## Jim in Oakville (Jun 7, 2005)

Hi Jack,

Therming is much like Darlow showed in his book, a process of turning in parralel axis's to the centre axis between centres.

The person at our club showed how he turned a three sidded pen using a centre fixture that could be rotated in a controlled fashin 120 degrees, 3 settings.  he mounted the pen blank ( ususally  a drilled out complex arrangement of exotic woods) to one face of the jig, and cut the face in an interupetd cutting fashion as that face passed by on the fixture in the lathe.  After completing  one face then he rotated the blank to a second face and continued to creat the second face, then repeated the process for the third face.

He mounted the blank on a spindle that was secured in teh jig by using 12 point sockets, the rotation of the assembly was controlled by counting the points in teh socket and rotating it accordingly to match the 120 degree faces.  It took nearly an hour to cut one face, he explained he took about a week working at nights to make each pen.

He had several finished examples for us to look at, they were incredible, somehow he also turned a finial on the top end. The pens were twist pens, basic mechanisms, but the shape of the pen, the rareity of the wood and his final detailing made it a work of art. 

[]


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## woodscavenger (Jun 7, 2005)

Could you snag a photo?


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## Mainebowlman (Jun 8, 2005)

Thanks for the explanation, Jim.  Hard to visualize for me, especially the jig.  I will look forward to seeing a photo of one sometime.

Does your club friend have any photos online?

Jack


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## Jim in Oakville (Jun 8, 2005)

Hi,

I don't have an image but our next news letter may well have one.  It's almost like a second spindle axis attached to the primary axis spinning around the primary attached by the jig holding the blank.  He said the first pen cost nearly $12k after taking ito acount the costs of the jig, lathe, custom cutters, etc ..


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## PenWorks (Jul 27, 2005)

Okay, so it is not $250.00 but it's closer. Not braggin, just stating the facts.....This guy strolls into the store, just moved here from Kansas City and couldn't believe there is a pen store in Cave Creek. [8D] He buys this Jr Statesmen Cumberland with a gold nib for $165.00
My highest price yet for a Jr. Statesmen, Is it worth it? He thought so and he owns about 30 plus nice pens [] He would have never bought a steel nib pen, just thought I would share my good luck story for today. []





<br />


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## Rifleman1776 (Jul 27, 2005)

Congrats Anthony. The answer to your question is "Yes". It is worth it because he paid that for it. Sellers may set prices, buyers establish value.


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## wdcav1952 (Jul 27, 2005)

Congratulations Anthony!


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## penhead (Jul 27, 2005)

Congrats Anthony...and yes, I agree with him it is a beautiful pen and worth the price, and if it made 'him' happy, it was more than worth it..!!


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## ed4copies (Jul 28, 2005)

Anthony,

Value is relative-I suspect your pen took at least an hour of your life.  My attorney charges me 250 for an hour of his life.  Although he will tell you all about his education, he CAN'T turn YOUR pen.  So, it is definitely worth at least $165.  Congratulations!!

Wouldn't it be nice if we could ask people what they charge for their time BEFORE we tell them the cost of an item???


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## driften (Jul 28, 2005)

Congrats Anthony, he got a very nice pen and will be very happy with it! Maybe he will be back for more!


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## jvsank (Jul 28, 2005)

Congrats Anthony nice sale


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## Skordog (Jul 28, 2005)

Nice job Anthony.  Out of curiosity, how did you have this particular pen displayed?  Was the cap off to show that it was a fountain pen?  Was it sitting on this feather?


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## PenWorks (Jul 28, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Skordog_
> <br /> Out of curiosity, how did you have this particular pen displayed?  Was the cap off to show that it was a fountain pen?  Was it sitting on this feather?



It was not even in the display cabinet. After he looked at several pens and we chatted, it was clear he was a pen guy and clear he would only buy a gold nib. and the Statesmen was to big and the Jr's were just right. I had made up 4 Jr. Statesmen pens with the gold nibs and they are behind my desk. So when I am not there, they won't be mistaken and sold for steel. I sat him at my desk and let him dip several pens and he made his decission.  Most of my expensive fountain pens buyers, want to dip and try before they buy. []
Having a desk to accomidate them and good paper, really helps. Heck even my steel Baron nibs will slide on the paper I let them test on! []


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## bigvoots44 (Jul 29, 2005)

250$ pen;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
We must remember that there are two sides to every sale... the buyer and the purchaser. No matter what value we put on an item it all depends on the purchaser what the final value is. if 250 is too much to him/her it is not a 250 pen,,BUT, if 250 is what they are willing to pay it is a 350 pen. The same applies to everthing, the purchaser determines the selling price. Look at walmart, if you dont buy at their inflated price you will see a reduced price.
fred


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## bigvoots44 (Jul 29, 2005)

i screwed up. i meant a 250 pen


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## woodbutcher (Jul 29, 2005)

You will never get more than you ask. Your client base is the answer. Sometimes ya gotta sell the sizzle! Have a great day,

                            Jim    []


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## btboone (Jul 29, 2005)

I've sold a few at $195.  I'm working on a follow up to the twisting titanium fountain pen; this one is a ballpoint with some unique features that I've never seen in a pen before.  I'm hoping to target well into the 4 digit range.  We'll see how it goes.


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## driften (Jul 30, 2005)

Good Luck Bruce! I for one look forward to seeing what you come up with.


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