# My first ever Commission - Roman Harvest and Blackboy.



## Bob Wemm (Sep 3, 2014)

This started off so well, and I was really happy with the result. That is while it was sitting in the packet for several days. Then I decided that I would do the photograph thing and post it here.
Even after taking the close up photo I didn't notice what had happened since it was assembled.
When I loaded the photos onto my computer it was quite devastating to see all the cracks in the CA finish.
Oh well, I know that it has happened to many of you, but this is the first time for me, and now I know how you feel.
Oh well, take it all off and start again, but I will use a different wood this time.
As usual C&C welcome.
Thanks for looking,

Bob.


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## mark james (Sep 3, 2014)

Oh my but that is a beautiful piece of wood!!!    Hope you can save it.


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## Ironwood (Sep 3, 2014)

That's a real bummer Bob. It's amazing how things like that can happen when you least want them to. It is a shame, because it would have made a nice looking pen.
Have you had trouble with Grasstree before ?

I am doing a commissioned pen set as well at the moment, I have had to recast three blanks so far, I think I have got it beat now thank goodness, but it was starting to get annoying for a while there


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## johncrane (Sep 3, 2014)

That's a real bummer Bob! bloody murphy's  law, that kit/blank is a great matchup, id be trying to redo the finish.


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## wyone (Sep 3, 2014)

wow... such a beautiful pen to have that happen to.  Are you going to try and turn back to the wood and refinish?  I have not had this happen yet, but would like an idea how to hopefully safe that quality of work


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## TonyL (Sep 3, 2014)

Do you think those cracks could be from assembly pressure? I barely have any experience with CA finishing, so I may be way off. I am just guessing.


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## Ted iin Michigan (Sep 3, 2014)

That's such an awesome pen it would be a shame to dump it. Refinishing is an option. I did it when I had cracking issues. Turns out my issue was "old" CA. Suggest you get a fresh batch.


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## Jim15 (Sep 3, 2014)

That's a beautiful pen. Hope you can fix it.


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## lyonsacc (Sep 3, 2014)

Been there, done that for a few different reasons - a few too many times.  You can fix it!


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## BJohn (Sep 3, 2014)

That stinks, it was a beautiful pen. As mentioned earlier hope you can effect a repair


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## BSea (Sep 3, 2014)

TonyL said:


> Do you think those cracks could be from assembly pressure? I barely have any experience with CA finishing, so I may be way off. I am just guessing.


I doubt that the cracks are from the assembly.  You can see them all through the cap piece with no connection to the fittings on the end.

Bob, I have no experience using that timber (although I'd like to).  Have you used it before?  About the only thing I can think of is a big change in temperature.  I know it's cold where you are now, and I wonder if was left out in a cold shop after the CA was applied.  That is just a guess though.  So far I've never had this happen with a CA finish (knock on wood).


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## mark james (Sep 3, 2014)

An additional thought Bob...  If this commission is going International, with changes in temperature, you may want to consider a different finish.

Many folks appreciate the feel of wood vs a CA, and many "woodturner's finishes" will stand up to changes in the wood swelling and shrinking with changes in temperature and humidity (I suspect you knew all this already!).

Just a consideration.  :wink:


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## Bob Wemm (Sep 3, 2014)

BSea said:


> TonyL said:
> 
> 
> > Do you think those cracks could be from assembly pressure? I barely have any experience with CA finishing, so I may be way off. I am just guessing.
> ...


 
Hi Bob,
You are correct, there is nothing to do with assembly, but I have only done one other pen with Blackboy and CA and I looked tonight and that is cracked also. 
So the possibilities are old CA, and the wood, which is quite soft. I applied one coat of thin CA and then 12 coats of Med. CA and then sanded to 2400 and buffed with Tripoli and white diamond.
?????????????????????????????

Bob.


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## Bob Wemm (Sep 3, 2014)

mark james said:


> An additional thought Bob...  If this commission is going International, with changes in temperature, you may want to consider a different finish.
> 
> Many folks appreciate the feel of wood vs a CA, and many "woodturner's finishes" will stand up to changes in the wood swelling and shrinking with changes in temperature and humidity (I suspect you knew all this already!).
> 
> Just a consideration.  :wink:


 
Hi Mark,
Yes this was intended for International purposes.
Thanks for the thought.

Bob.


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## Sandsini (Sep 3, 2014)

Bob,
Tough luck on the finish. I just had an Alt Ivory blank blow up on me (first time ever!) and the pen I was making was the most expensive commission I have had to date, for what is a (rather impatient) doctor and return customer. I felt awful telling him there would be a delay.

I know that many here use medium CA for their finish, but I have had much better luck with thin only and I put about 5 or 6 coats on, then sand level and do another 6 or so. My finishes aren't going to be as thick as yours but they look good and I wonder if that, combined with the potential of old CA, might be contributing to your problem.

Best of luck,


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## 1080Wayne (Sep 3, 2014)

Think I agree with Eric . A thick CA layer takes a long time to fully cure . The cracks may be just shrinkage cracks occurring as the CA off gases and contracts , with the cracks showing up at places where adhesion of the CA to the wood is a bit poorer . 

If you want to experiment , try a thin finish and your current finish , both taken to high gloss , on two pieces of the same wood , and check them out every week , for a month .


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## Bob Wemm (Sep 3, 2014)

Thanks for the helpful hints guys, They are much appreciated.
I also made a "Snakewood" pen on the same day as this one, the finish method is identical on both pens and the Snakewood has not cracked yet. I also made a Walnut pen at the same time as the first "Blackboy" one and that has not cracked either, so that tells me that it is the "Blackboy" that is the problem.
Temperature range has been in the vicinity of Min. 55 - 60F and Max. 75 - 85F over the last week or so. So I don't think that has anything to do with it either.
Looks like a different finish to me.
Once again, Thank you for your thoughts.

Bob.


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## robutacion (Sep 4, 2014)

Hi Bob,

I don't recall you saying that the wood was stabilised, was it...???

I never worked with that wood but, and as you know, I have "some" experience with all types of softwoods so, after your confirmation on what you did to it before start turning, I may be able to make some suggestions that can possibly resolve the reaction of that wood with the deep CA finish.


I do in fact know, what that pen is, and its destination, you are made your plans to have this "special" pen been made with that unusual and unseen wood of yours so, I think that you should persist with it and find the solution to the problem, I will do my best to help...!

You may even have to grab a 500gr. postal bag and send me a few blanks fro me to treat, my way, you can have then back in a very short period of time, this is what friends do...!:wink:

Let me know.

Cheers
George


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## OZturner (Sep 4, 2014)

What a Bummer Bob.
Such a Magnificent Pen.
I feel for you, it nearly made me cry.
I think I would take George up on his offer, about Stabilising.
The Xanthorrhoea, aka "Grass Tree" or "Black Boy" isn't a wood as we normally know it. 
Its structure is not unlike that of a Tree Fern, where the Trunk Structure is a series of longitudinal thin tubes attached to each other with a close fitting membrane. 
I believe it is this structure that gives it the ability to withstand the extreme heat of Bushfires, over the years, and for it to continue to bounce back to life.
As such, these tubes may need to be filled with a Stabilising agent, to give them resistance to movement from external pressures, such as Humidity, Temperature, Stress Relief, Curing Pressure of the CA, or whatever else we can subject them too.
Regards,
Brian.


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## mikespenturningz (Sep 4, 2014)

That is a nice looking pen you have there Bob. Great job.


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## boof910 (Sep 4, 2014)

Certainly a beautiful pen worth saving Bob. 

I have had similar results on a couple of burl pens but not in such a short time frame. Put it down to the timber moving and refinished them.


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## Bob Wemm (Sep 4, 2014)

robutacion said:


> Hi Bob,
> 
> I don't recall you saying that the wood was stabilised, was it...???
> 
> ...


 
George, I'll do this here rather than by email, so everyone can benefit.
The wood is quite soft and powdery, all I did was drill and glue in the tubes with thick CA. Turned them down to size and sanded to 600 gr.
Then I applied a good thin CA coat to seal the wood. Then I proceeded to apply the 12 coats of med CA and then sand and polish as described.
I did not allow any time for any of the CA coats to cure?????????
Just applied one after the other with accelerator in between.
The Blackboy wood is only about 1mm thick so there was not a lot of wood to move etc.

What do you think?????

Bob.


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## robutacion (Sep 5, 2014)

Hi Bob,

I have no experience with that wood but, I have a feeling that the wood wasn't ready for sealing with CA, maybe so moisture or even natural sap that didn't like to be enclosed in CA.

I would not consider a problem with the CA age, as you have tolds us that you have done/finish other pens with it, at the same time so, that problem is out however I ask, how old are the CA bottles you used, I say bottles because you used the thin CA to soak the barrel before sanding and finishing, and one can have a problem, this is assuming, only...!

I would like to see those blanks cooked in the oven @ 80° celsius for a few hours and then stabilized before that get cold.  From there I would proceed with the normal stabilization processes and test them out.

How long did you say that the barrels cracked after you finish them...???

I know that you don't have your own stabilization gear so, get a small postal bag filled with some good blanks, and I will get them ready for you, in no time and free of charge, you need that pen to get done right and to last, huh...???

Let me know...!

Cheers
George


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## Bob Wemm (Sep 5, 2014)

robutacion said:


> Hi Bob,
> 
> I have no experience with that wood but, I have a feeling that the wood wasn't ready for sealing with CA, maybe so moisture or even natural sap that didn't like to be enclosed in CA.
> 
> ...


 
George,
I noticed the cracks after only 3 days.
The CA is about 18 months to 2 years old.
The wood was very dusty, so it was dry, but could have had some moisture in it.
The other problem that I have discovered is that CA is the only process that leaves the wood in its natural colour. The bowls and other things I have made using WOP or Lacquer or Shellawax as a finish, have all resulted in a big degree of colour change, making the wood quite dark. 
CA does not change the colour at all.
Even if worked and left in the open atmosphere for a week or so, it starts to go darker. I have no idea what will happen with the stabilisation process but I guess we had better give it a try. 
I will send you some.

Cheers and thanks,
Bob.


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## OZturner (Sep 5, 2014)

Bob Wemm said:


> robutacion said:
> 
> 
> > Hi Bob,
> ...


 

Bob and George.

Could you please keep us abreast of your processes, progress, achievements and results. Ideally on this post.
I have a trunk here, that at sometime in the not too distant future, I will be looking to Cut Up and Turn,and it would be nice not to have to re-invent the wheel, or have catastrophic failures.
Regards,
Brian.


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## Bob Wemm (Sep 5, 2014)

OZturner said:


> Bob Wemm said:
> 
> 
> > robutacion said:
> ...


 
Sure thing Brian, That's why I asked George to do this in the thread rather than by email.
That way anyone interested can keep up with what is happening.
This is such a beautiful wood???? and it discolours so easily, we have to find a way to solve the issue.
Thank you for your interest.

Cheers,
Bob.


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## robutacion (Sep 5, 2014)

Sure Bob, send them in...!

Don't worry Brian, you will know how it all goes, in due time...!

I will turn one blank as a sample after the treatment and coated with the CA finish as I always do and see what happens, at least I will be about 1 week in front of Bob's tests, if it took 3 or 4 days for the finish to crack on his untreated blank, will be interesting to see what will happen to the sample I will make when Bob receives his blanks back, minus 1, after being Georgenised :wink::biggrin:

Cheers
George


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## Bob Wemm (Sep 8, 2014)

George, they will be in the post tomorrow.
Please take note of the colour before you do anything with them, then compare after being stabilised.

Thanks,
Bob.


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## robutacion (Sep 8, 2014)

Bob Wemm said:


> George, they will be in the post tomorrow.
> Please take note of the colour before you do anything with them, then compare after being stabilised.
> 
> Thanks,
> Bob.



Sure Bob, I will...!

Cheers
George


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## robutacion (Sep 15, 2014)

OK Bob, the blanks (8)  arrived yesterday and I already done some checking before I put them in the oven, where they still are...!

I took good note of the colour change you mentioned and to allow me to compare, I took some pics before I done anything to them.  I could see that, this wood darkens like the Mulberry wood does, exposed to light and air, it darkens quite considerably so, I took pics of some side that already show that darkness and them some pics from the "fresh" cuts...!

  
 

I then weigh them and there is a small variation in between then, a couple of grams either way,   

I then checked what my durometer (it says Shore A but is a B)  readings were on its softness, I tested it in 3 different locations and this is the result,   

And finally, I took the MC% readings, 


In general, the wood is dry, and felt that way but that, we already know, huh...??? so, lets see what happens to the next stages.

The blanks had already 2 runs of 90 minutes each @ 80° celsius, and 2 runs this morning, I will give them another 2 runs this afternoon and then straight to the stabilising chamber, as soon as they get a little cooler/less hoter...!

The blanks are covered (not wrapped) with foil paper to prevent any direct burns to the wood...!

Cheers
George


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## tgsean (Sep 16, 2014)

Bob that is a great pen, hope you are using full protection with Grass Tree (blackboy). That is one of the most carcinogenic (cancerous) timbers you can ever turn! If you are well protected it should be fine. Try to disassemble and turn it back to the bare wood and redo the CA. Great pen and timber, hope you can salvage it mate.


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## Bob Wemm (Sep 16, 2014)

tgsean said:


> Bob that is a great pen, hope you are using full protection with Grass Tree (blackboy). That is one of the most carcinogenic (cancerous) timbers you can ever turn! If you are well protected it should be fine. Try to disassemble and turn it back to the bare wood and redo the CA. Great pen and timber, hope you can salvage it mate.


 
Thanks for that Sean, I do already know about the dangers of Blackboy and take the appropriate precautions.
Good to have you back.

Cheers,
Bob.


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## Bob Wemm (Sep 16, 2014)

Thank you George,
It certainly will be interesting to see what happens.
Some of the dark patches are from the outer edge of the root or close to a split in the root, thus allowing air and water in.

Cheers Mate,

Bob.


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## robutacion (Sep 16, 2014)

Test, part - 2

OK, the blanks were taken from the oven this afternoon after 6 runs of 90 minutes at 80° celsius so a 9 hours of oven time.  The first thing I did was to weight them and see it was any loss of weight , 
a small loss but a loss, 3gr average from 30 to 27gr so, what was that they lost..???, as they were looking pretty dry at 7%MC right..??? this is what they lost,  6%MC (moisture content).  Where that come from...??? environment/air moisture...!

The blank probed was the very same as before and you can see from the indentations I made on the the second time around, the pins were indeed making deep contact,   

Now, the colour comparison test seem to show that, the roasting of the blanks did not affect the colour, thanks to the foil protection, this is the pic taken of the group after coming out of the oven, 

Before I put them in the stabilisation chamber, I took the readings again with the Durometer, why...??? because I knew that, when wood is toasted to almost 0% MC, the wood cells harden slightly, did this happen...??? you be the judge  



I have so far, validated every single expected event, as I mention before a few times, the blanks are now under full vacuum, have started at 3:50pm and will be turned off about about midnight, the blanks will stay submerged until tomorrow morning, after of which they will be drained and let drain for the rest of the day, I should cook them sometime tomorrow evening.

The next day I will do a few simple surface colour tests to measure any difference, after that I will select the worse blank of the batch and I will turn it round halfway and then proceed with my normal CA finish, 2 thin + 6 medium + 2 thin, sand, polish it and see what comes up.

The time of turning/completing the sample will be recorded, along with ambient temp. and humidity, this first pic will be taken immediately and shown on this thread, I will use the super Macro function to provide clear details of the finished surface.

The blank will have an identical pic taken every 2 days, while the treated blanks (7) will be returned to Bob immediately.  There will be about 1 week before he gets them back, in the mean time he and all of us, we can see the sample every 2 days and look for any signs of cracking, if by the time Bob get his blanks back, the sample performs as I expect it to, Bob will be safe to make is important commissioned pen and any others he may wish to do so...!

My commissioned pen is waiting for the kit to arrive from the USA (PSI), I couldn't find what I wanted on any of the Australian suppliers, not that is something unique, you guys have been using these kits for some time but, the correct plating, wasn't available here.

A simple kit with a couple of spare tubes + shipping AU$70.90 , I better cast something for the tubes that will make it worthwhile otherwise, I will get pretty wild...!

Anyway, we wait and see...!

Cheers
George


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## Bob Wemm (Sep 16, 2014)

Thank you George.

Bob.


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## robutacion (Sep 17, 2014)

Test part-3

Well Bob, I don't think that my news are that good, it look promising but, the results are a little confusing and at the same time, a indication of something that isn't right with this wood.

After all those hours in the oven, I put them in the vacuum chamber and I deliberately use fresh Cactus Juice to see if the wood would stain it and how much.  Why that, you would ask....! well, is a smell associated to the raw wood that resembles a small log that I found years ago and that, I also had problems with the finish I was using at that time, it wasn't CA but some gloss varnish, the varnish after dried, just cracked and peeled like a banana, this would be expected with oily woods in no preparation to the wood was made, the wood didn't have natural oils but, it had a natural sap that would come to the surface if the surface of the wood was sealed with anything, I didn't have the stabilization at that time so, I don't know how it would go...!

The first thing that I noticed when I poured the juice into the vacuum pot, the blanks were buoyant, and after being under vacuum for 6 or 7 hours, they were still buoyant (I had a weight pushing the blanks down while the pump was going) and that normally means trouble.  

 

The colour of the Juice did start changing, as soon as the blanks were inserted on it but, after the stabilization done, my concerns were realised and the juice was well contaminate, and this is many times worse that the results I get with other woods, after the first use of fresh juice.  I poor the unused juice in a container and put it side by side with a new container, and that was the colour I started with...!



Unwrapping the blanks from the foil, revealed another disappointment, the blanks didn't seem to have taken any juice so, I done the softness test again with the durometer to see if there was any difference, and some how, it was a small improvement of the wood hardness,

 
 

With the exception of 1 blank, all others seemed to have darken with the roasting, that was expected to a point, and if the roasting was done well, the wood would maintain its natural colour underneath while, if the good gets burt, the darkness is seen straight through the wood but, that wasn't the case here so Bob, you will get your blanks back with its natural colour preserved...!:wink:

 

And finally, I need to find out if the wood has taken on any juice at all, and this was the most disappointing result of them all, it didn't...!



Well, this is all I could do for today (well, is 1:00 am so, I started yesterday)

The next step is to turn half blank and finish it as I will do on a pen (steps already described before).  These Georgenized blanks, may not get the results I was expecting, too early yet to make a conclusive decision nevertheless, if there will be no improvements is because I didn't gave it a good shot...!

One not always get what they want...!

We will see...!

Cheers
George


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## Bob Wemm (Sep 18, 2014)

Hey George,
I hope you haven't posted those blanks back to me yet. If you still have them please either keep them or chuck them in the bin, as they are pretty well useless and I do have a heap more here.
I have been trying some different ways of doing a CA finish while you have been conducting these experiments, and everything I have tried has failed, even to the point of the wood peeling off the tube in my hand. That was not a failure from insufficient glue when fitting the tube, because when the blank was almost to its finished size I applied heaps of thin CA which appeared to be soaking in. It was not until I had applied 1 thin and 4 med coats and sanded and was about to apply the next coat that I realised that the tube and wood had parted company.
There is obviously some kind of resin/inhibitor in the wood which prevents the intake of liquids.
So, chuck 'em out. Don't waste any more money or time.

Thank you so much for all your effort. Like you said, win some loose some.

Cheers,
Bob.


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## OZturner (Sep 18, 2014)

Bob and George,
For what it is worth.
After following the processes that George has conducted, and your latest results Bob.
I got to thinking and trying to remember the finishes I have seen on various turned items of Grass Tree over the years.
To the best of my recollection, I think most were left natural, or with a light wax on /wax off type finish.
Perhaps you could give that a try, or even use a little Renaissance wax. That is used for all types of materials by the British Museum.
Brian.


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## Bob Wemm (Sep 18, 2014)

OZturner said:


> Bob and George,
> For what it is worth.
> After following the processes that George has conducted, and your latest results Bob.
> I got to thinking and trying to remember the finishes I have seen on various turned items of Grass Tree over the years.
> ...


 
Hi Brian,
Thank you for your interest in this, I tried some Shellawax Friction Polish this afternoon but with several coats there was very little shine, like a Satin finish which would be acceptable. Everything else I've tried has made the wood go very dark and unattractive.
The problem that I've also found today is that there is no guarantee that the tube will bond with the wood. One part of the blank is stuck firm, but the other end just peeled off in my fingers, after being heavily coated with thin CA several times and then had 4 coats of med CA. The wood was like a piece of cardboard. All that CA had not penetrated or reacted with the wood to harden it. There must be some sort of resin preventing this from happening.
The other thing is without some type of hardener, the wood definitely would not stand up for use as a pen.
I just feel that I cannot guarantee a result so I am going to abandon the Blackboy and use another timber.

Cheers,
Bob.


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## tgsean (Sep 18, 2014)

Wow, George and Bob you both have gone through a lot of effort to try to get this grass tree to work! George you have worked on this like a true scientist! As mentioned before, please ensure very good inhalation protection is used, as it is one of the most cancerous woods. Bob have you tried wipe on poly? Its available in Bunnings produced by a company called Minwax.


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## robutacion (Sep 18, 2014)

Bob Wemm said:


> Hey George,
> I hope you haven't posted those blanks back to me yet. If you still have them please either keep them or chuck them in the bin, as they are pretty well useless and I do have a heap more here.
> I have been trying some different ways of doing a CA finish while you have been conducting these experiments, and everything I have tried has failed, even to the point of the wood peeling off the tube in my hand. That was not a failure from insufficient glue when fitting the tube, because when the blank was almost to its finished size I applied heaps of thin CA which appeared to be soaking in. It was not until I had applied 1 thin and 4 med coats and sanded and was about to apply the next coat that I realised that the tube and wood had parted company.
> There is obviously some kind of resin/inhibitor in the wood which prevents the intake of liquids.
> ...



Well Bob, too late mate, I posted them (7) + a gift blank, this morning...!

I have left the turning of the sample a bit too late this afternoon and when I finished it, was almost dark so, I didn't have enough natural light to take a few close ups so, I will do it tomorrow...!

I was a bit surprised when I read your post, the sample that I made looks pretty good, in my eyes and surprisingly, the first 2 thin CA coats I apply to it, not with the applicator but with the lathe off and covering the area with the CA and then smooth it up with the finger while rotating the chuck manually, the wood soaked it quite fast and furious, a little sanding and 6 medium coats followed by 2 thin coats, sand and polish...!

I got the impression that, after I finished the first 2 coats and smooth it up with 600 wet sanding manually, the surface felt extremely hard and smooth, I felt that at that point, I should have give it one more thin coat, and polish, sometimes less is better but, I continued on as normal nevertheless I felt that I passed the ideal finish barrier, anything over, could change its adhesion and performance, with peeling or all the other things your experienced so, its done so, I can't go back, well I could but is not necessary...!

Lets see what this one does, the wood is beautiful and if if holds, you know you have another 7 workable blanks to use at some time...!

And if all goes to $#!t, at least we tried...!:biggrin:

Oh..., I have no doubt that the wood has some chemical component that bleeds out quite easily, that has been my claim from this testing's, sometimes I can reverse its negative results sometimes but rarely, I don't...!

Cheers
George


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## Bob Wemm (Sep 18, 2014)

tgsean said:


> Wow, George and Bob you both have gone through a lot of effort to try to get this grass tree to work! George you have worked on this like a true scientist! As mentioned before, please ensure very good inhalation protection is used, as it is one of the most cancerous woods. Bob have you tried wipe on poly? Its available in Bunnings produced by a company called Minwax.


 

Sean, Yes I have and it makes the wood almost black.

Not the result I want.

Cheers,
Bob.


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## Bob Wemm (Sep 18, 2014)

Hi George, Thinking back to when I started this last failure, my head is spinning now, I remember that when I applied the thin CA there was a reaction, it all started fuming and little patches of white appeared, it really looked like it was soaking in. The other half of that blank, (Cap End) is nice and hard and has taken the first half of the CA finish well and has shown no problems.
It seems that there is no guarantee that the blackboy will work the same on either end of the blank. I spent nearly a week on this one just doing one coat at a time and letting the CA cure naturally before the next coat. Then it just peeled off one tube and is still good on the other.
Not worth the drama as far as I am concerned. 
I'm sorry you went to so much trouble.

Bob.



robutacion said:


> Bob Wemm said:
> 
> 
> > Hey George,
> ...


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## robutacion (Sep 19, 2014)

Hi Bob and everyone waiting patiently to see the final results...!:biggrin:

I took the pics this morning when I saw a little clear sky of a day that is predicted overcast so, I took that chance and got some pics taken but, they are not my best for whatever reason, is not the reflections as that was deliberated to allow a clear view of the gloss finish, any small cracks, would show but, its too early yet, we have to wait some days to see what it does...!

Anyway, was the "sharpness" that I had troubles with, this morning so, I show you the best I got from the lot of pics I took...!




I will repeat some pics, in 4 days time, and then again in a week's time, only then I will call this test, finish...!:wink::biggrin:

PS: I never leave things, halfway...!

Cheers
George


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## wyone (Sep 19, 2014)

gorgeous


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## Bob Wemm (Sep 19, 2014)

George,
They look really good. It will be interesting to see what they are like in a week.
Again, Thank you for doing this.

Bob.


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## robutacion (Sep 19, 2014)

Bob Wemm said:


> George,
> They look really good. It will be interesting to see what they are like in a week.
> Again, Thank you for doing this.
> 
> Bob.



Hi Bob,

There is no "them" but "it"...!, these pics are all taken from a 1 half blank that I kept as the sample.

Yes, I agree, the wood is very pretty and finished quite nicely and, as far as I can see, even though the treatment made the outer of the blanks darker, I expected that I could maintain the fresh cut wood "natural" colour, something that you were specific about.

I recall you saying on a post that, in some of your attempts, you did give a single CA coat and leave it alone until the next day for another coat and so on, with this one, and as with any of the samples of actually pens I make, the 2 +6+2 coats of CA is quite typical and I finish it straight away, (well, maybe 5 minutes later) as the first 1 minute after the CA coating is done and still sipping in the lathe, those first 60 seconds are to me, a very crucial step, even more crucial in cold environments.

Dry or wet sanding with micro grits immediately after 10 coats of CA, is asking for troubles, I use double of the amount of accelerator after the last coast as to I use4 in between coats but, and unless that CA thickness is dry/set/harden, you will be certainly asking for troubles so, I use the heat gun on its max setting to cure the CA, and do so by, maintaining the heat gun at a safe distance from the rotating blank.

Safe distance is a distance where you can maintain you hand in from of the heat gun and not burn you out, this is about 1' to 1' 1/2 depending of the heat gun power.

The second important step is to not keep the heat gun in a single spot, you simple swing non stop, the heat gun from left to right so that the heat doesn't burn the surface but instead cure/harden it for the sanding.

I'm sure that you Bob are perfectly aware of this but, to any other less experience turners following this test, is important that they understand the importance to only sand the CA coats after they are properly set and while most people would prefer to wait a day or 2 to finish it, I don't have the patience to wait that long, I like to start and finish the job in one go and I know that most of you with feel the same way so, 60 seconds of exposure with a heat gun/hair dryer capable of producing approx 60° celsius at the desired distance as mentioned, it will do the same if not better than leaving it  overnight or two, with temps are are far and below the 60° celsius, is like the Cactus juice to cure, unless it reaches that recommended temperatures for at least 1 hour, the juice will not set, even if you leave it in the oven for a week...!

So, after all this said and tests done, there is always something to learn, anyone can do tests like this, you don't need that much investment and, if you didn't know how to go about it, this thread will give you something that you can use as a guide and if you get stuck, don't hesitate to contact me

Whatever happens with it Bob, I'm please that I could be of some assistance to you, that's what friends are for, huh...???:wink::biggrin:

PS: I forgot to mention on my pics post, this thing is like a magma for fine dust, I cleaned and cleaned it by the time I got the camera in position, dust particles have already landed on the blank, damn  thing...!

Cheers
George


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## Bob Wemm (Sep 20, 2014)

Sorry Mate, I meant all the photos look good, not all the blanks!!!

Cheers,
Bob.


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## Bob Wemm (Sep 22, 2014)

George,
When I do my CA I usually do 1 coat of thin, then 4 coats of med CA, using accelerator after each application. Then I wet sand to 2400 and then apply another 4 coats of med CA, with accelerator after each coat. Then wet sand again to 2400 and finally buff with Tripoli and white diamond. No waiting for anything to cure.
I've not had any trouble until now. That is why I decided to try the one coat and wait plan, to see if that made any difference, but there was nothing doing with that method.
When the blanks get back to me I will try again, this time on a slimline and not assemble it straight away.
I would really like to use the Blackboy for this commission, although I have told Mark that I will use something else.
Just have to wait and see what happens.

Thanks again for your help.

Bob.


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## OZturner (Sep 22, 2014)

Encouraging interim results George, and Bob.
Looks great so far.
Be careful of that dust George, as Sean mentioned, Grass Tree is notorious for respiratory problems, and is reputed to be Carcinogenic.
 
Also I want you to know that All your Work and effort is Greatly Appreciated, by all of us sitting on the side
Brian.


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## robutacion (Sep 22, 2014)

No problem fellows...!

Bob, I know that you really wanted to put the Blackboy of the commissioned penm reason why I tried to do the best I could to help you out and make that happen, I done all I could so, I'm yet to confirm that, it was a fail, so far so good, the temperatures I getting high and the Blackboy sample is hanging, under the roof shed extension, together with another 50 or more others samples, that I keep there until I'm running out of room and then take them out, sort and put them away in boxes.

The heat coming out of that roof in a hot day is horrendous, the blanks/samples hanging on a nail stuck on the 3x2 pine beam, get "cooked"/exposed to some nasty hot temps, not that, this is part of some test or something but, it will certainly give the samples a extreme heat factor after done and photographed, most I wouldn't care what happen to them, as they served its purpose, many are actually made into a sample while the wood or even the resin is not dry, I only do this when I need a quick pic of how it would like after finished so, I know that these blanks will more, crack and do all sorts of things that will make them ugly to look at, sometime I re-do them when worth it, other times put them]away as they are...!

So, what I'm trying to say is that, the Blackboy sample has been exposed to some extra heat, that tends to push the possible reactions to critical points,as you would if you left a pen in the vehicles dash...!

I will take a couple of pics when I reach 4 days from finishing (what day did I finish it???, have to have a look...!) however, as of today, I checked it and I say no changes so, that is a good sign...!  The next few days, is going to be even hotter, we see what will happens...!

Brian, well, I believe that, when you offer to do something, you either do it right/to your capabilities or is better no even start, huh...???

We all learn new things every day, I like to be "specific" (I don't think that is a surprise to nobody) so, I also enjoy the process of makes these tests, they tell me a lot more that one would at first realise so, if my efforts are a benefit and appreciated by IAP members (any members), I reached my goal...!:biggrin:

Cheers
George


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## Band Saw Box (Sep 24, 2014)

That's a real shame Bob, but I think it's a nice looking pen.


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## Dai Sensei (Sep 25, 2014)

Geez I wish I had seen this thread earlier, I just don't get the time these days whilst travelling to visit all the different forums.  

Grass tree is very porous and the CA would have penetrated quite deeply.  CA at depth takes time to go off and can cause the wood to expand in time.  My guess would be blank has expanded as the CA set properly cracking your outer surface finish.

All my weird and wonderful blanks are finished with 2-3 coats of thin CA (no accelerator!) and then 5-6 coats of medium or thick CA (accelerator after 3-4 coats), then left for a few days (preferably a week).  Then I sand again any defects that appear before applying the final additional 5-10 coats of medium or thick CA (depending on desired thickness of coating).

Many pens I have finished quickly as you have done have produced rippled, lumpy or cracked surfaces as you experienced.  Banksia for example if finished this way often results in a dimple at each resin fill as the timber expands around it.

I was surprised to see the Cactus Juice didn't stick to the grass tree George did, interesting result and good to know, but he is on the right track ie it needs stabilisation (similar to banksia pods, some palms & other very porous blanks).  I dry my blanks in the dehydrator (as they may appear dry but can contain moisture in the middle) then pop them in a small container of thin CA to soak for a few hours.  I remove them with gloves, shake off the excess, then place on some baking paper to set over at least a week.  Wear breathing gear and stand back as the fumes can be horrific.  Do not do this if the moisture in the air from rain etc is too high, nor use any accelerator, as they will just turn white.

Great to see the effort put in by George, and good to see success eventually.  Keep up the good work you guys.

Cheers


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## robutacion (Sep 26, 2014)

Well, I have been keep forgetting to take pics of the sample blanks on the 4th day after I CA it so, sorry about that...!

The day I CA it was the 18/9/2014, even though, I took only the pics on the following day the 19th so, today being the 26/9/2014, this mean that, has been 8 full days.

I had checked it a few days ago and I have reported that I didn't see any cracks, this is in fact what I continued to see today, when I took the pics.

There is only one extra observation that I would like to make, this sample was never drilled so, there is "solid" wood throughout, something that, on Bob's pen there is only a small amount of wood over the brass tube.  What this have to do any anything...? I'm not absolutely sure however, is no guarantee that, any of the blanks I treated, including the sample, won't crack at some stage, that is something that I wouldn't dare to guarantee or bet on.

It is was it is, and only Bob can make the decision if he wants to risk to re-do the commissioned pen, using any of the treated blanks , either way, these are the results as promised...!

PS: the reflections on the pics were done deliberately so that we all can see any possible cracks, a little better...!




Cheers
George


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## Bob Wemm (Sep 26, 2014)

Dai Sensei said:


> Geez I wish I had seen this thread earlier, I just don't get the time these days whilst travelling to visit all the different forums.
> 
> Grass tree is very porous and the CA would have penetrated quite deeply.  CA at depth takes time to go off and can cause the wood to expand in time.  My guess would be blank has expanded as the CA set properly cracking your outer surface finish.
> 
> ...


 
Thanks for that info Neil
It all helps in the long run.

Bob.


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## Bob Wemm (Sep 26, 2014)

robutacion said:


> Well, I have been keep forgetting to take pics of the sample blanks on the 4th day after I CA it so, sorry about that...!
> 
> The day I CA it was the 18/9/2014, even though, I took only the pics on the following day the 19th so, today being the 26/9/2014, this mean that, has been 8 full days.
> 
> ...


 
Just for further information on this.

4 days ago I decided to try another Blackboy blank, drilled and fitted a pair of Jnr. Gent 2 tubes, turned and did my "Normal" CA finish on them, 1 coat of thin CA, 4coats of Med CA, sanded to 2400, then another4 coats of med CA, sanded and buffed with Tripoli and White Diamond. The tubes are sitting on my desk and there is no sign of cracks at this stage. This blank is an untreated piece. 
I have no idea what I did wrong the first time but I suspect that Neil has hit it on the head. I also cannot explain what happened with the other experiments that I did.
I guess that I will do another set of tubes and see what happens.

Thank you all for your contributions to this thread.
It is greatly appreciated.

Bob.


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## robutacion (Oct 12, 2014)

Hi Bob and folks...!

Not that, is that important anymore but, I saw the blackboy sample that I done a few weeks back and had a quick look to see it was any changes from the last time.

I didn't see any problems with the finish, it looked no different than the day I done it.  

As a matter of curiosity, I may leave it where it is and have a look every so often, I do this with any of my samples anyway so, nothing different there.

Because my pics are dated, I decided to put here the last pic I took a few days ago and completely forgot that I had it in the camera so, here it goes...!



Cheers
George


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