# Berea now has computer circuit board blank kits



## BruceK

Just browsing and came across this

http://bereahardwoods.com/Merchant5...Store_Code=BW&Category_Code=pk-sierra-circuit

You have to buy the pen kit and the blank.  It uses a different bushing than the Sierra or the Sierra Vista a "50A".

So who's gonna be the first to try one?

(I already have quite a few of Bruce119's blanks so I'm not in the market...)


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## tbroye

Just shot the bug on my screen, now I can't see. I think I will continue to buy mine from Bruce119, I like supporting the people on the site. Brea is good but his sound like a copy cat type thing.


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## Skye

*Screw Berea!* There's a ton of other things they could have taken up without ripping off someone's creation.

No Bruce, no boards! N Bruce, no boards!


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## hehndc

I am in agreement with Skye.

Steve


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## Rudy Vey

Not a bad price at all - pen kits are included!!


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## Skye

Rudy Vey said:


> Not a bad price at all - pen kits are included!!



Price shmice, it's the principle of the matter.


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## alphageek

I'm 99% sure the 50a is a vista bushing...


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## wizical

Skye said:


> *Screw Berea!* There's a ton of other things they could have taken up without ripping off someone's creation.
> 
> No Bruce, no boards! N Bruce, no boards!



Berea came out with the circuit board blank kits, that is their right to do so, they are not ripping off a design, they see a product that can make money and they are selling itself.  The person on here that makes them should be flattered that they got copied by a pen company

For example; it is like telling HP that they cannot sell computers cause they ripped off Dell's Tower Design.

It is about competition, if someone can sell it for a lower price. Why not.  

I am all for the little guy to come out ahead, if he sells his blanks for a lower price, he has nothing to worry about.


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## rdunn12

I am with Skye on this one.It looks to me like a copy cat if I ever saw one.So let me get this right,the guys on here spend countless hours designing a coool pen and then someone,a person that is an idea thief browses the IAP,steals the idea and then tries to sell it back to us.Am I missing something?I think we are going to have to copyright every idea.When are they going to offer the cat poop blank?I would'nt buy it no matter how cheap.If I want the original I know where to get it and that is Bruce here on IAP.


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## wizical

rdunn12 said:


> I am with Skye on this one.It looks to me like a copy cat if I ever saw one.So let me get this right,the guys on here spend countless hours designing a coool pen and then someone,a person that is an idea thief browses the IAP,steals the idea and then tries to sell it back to us.Am I missing something?I think we are going to have to copyright every idea.When are they going to offer the cat poop blank?I would'nt buy it no matter how cheap.If I want the original I know where to get it and that is Bruce here on IAP.



, i would prefer buying from the original, but no matter what you do,  People are going to take ideas and designs and try to make money from this.  Look at computer makers, Car companies, Electronic companies....The list goes on and on.  But for some people, when it comes to this economy, people are trying to save a buck, this is a route they might go.

Like i said before, I would like to buy from the smaller guy, cause most of the time you get customer service.  but most people now a days are looking to save money.  So they go with what makes sense to them.  

I dont like when people take ideas, but welcome to capitalism


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## el_d

Aint that a bunch a bullshot!!! 

 Whats next the Cactus, Stained Glass, they already took the cartridge and did a poor job at it. This may also be a lame attempt at a copy-cat product. I havent seen mass marketed Worthless wood??? Is that too much work???

Im off my soap box now........


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## Constant Laubscher

Has anyone asked Bruce119 if he might have struck a deal with Berea for them to sell the product? Is everyone jumping the gun again or are we dealing with facts?


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## wolftat

Lets lynch 'em and then ask questions. Yeeee ha!:biggrin:

A while back, I thought Bruce said something about working on a deal, but he didn't want to go into things too much. This may be the deal he was working on.


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## el_d

Im with Neil,

First we KILL them THEN we tattoo them......


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## babyblues

Here we go again.  Everyone dog pile on Berea.  I suppose this is where we all take sides for or against and pledge our undying allegiance to one or the other.  This kind of thing is getting really old.  Don't even say, "Well, than why did you post in this thread?" or "You should take your own advice" or "You don't have to read it if you don't want to" because I'm not gonna hear it.  We're all associated with this board and when one, some or all do something stupid, like jump to such an ignorant conclusion, it reflects on all of us.  My apologies to the original poster, but this board is no place for a witch hunt.


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## wizical

I think people jump the gun before they have to facts, lets see what happens


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## Grizz

Maybe Bruce was in on it.  Wait for the facts.


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## chriselle

Ya, maybe those ARE Bruce's...lol.  I love dogpiles...!


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## wolftat

Grizz said:


> Maybe Bruce was in on it. Wait for the facts.


 We don't need no stinkin' facts. We want to rampage and pillage first.


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## rdunn12

wizical said:


> I think people jump the gun before they have to facts, lets see what happens


 

 I think you are right.No,I know you are right.


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## wolftat

babyblues said:


> Here we go again. Everyone dog pile on Berea. I suppose this is where we all take sides for or against and pledge our undying allegiance to one or the other. This kind of thing is getting really old. Don't even say, "Well, than why did you post in this thread?" or "You should take your own advice" or "You don't have to read it if you don't want to" because I'm not gonna hear it. We're all associated with this board and when one, some or all do something stupid, like jump to such an ignorant conclusion, it reflects on all of us. My apologies to the original poster, but this board is no place for a witch hunt.


 The original posting actually looks pretty inocent, just letting everyone know that there is a new product at Berea. But then again, I am too busy rampaging and pillaging to read clearly anyways.


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## jttheclockman

Stop and think now. If Bruce sold the idea to them why is he charging us almost twice as much????  

I just posted a little tidbit in Casual Conversation about Ruth Niles bottle stoppers being ripped off and she has a patten on them. The guy went to Canada to make them to bypass the patent laws. Did someone say Scruples???


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## Texatdurango

wizical said:


> I think people jump the gun before they have to facts, lets see what happens


 
What.... IAP members jump the gun? Never! :wink:

Man, it is SO easy to get a dogpile going around here and it is hilarious to watch so many make such bold statements without having a clue as to what the facts are.

For anyone interested in a fact.... I went back and read Bruce's original post made back in May 2008 where he first introduced his circuit board pen and he said in part... 


bruce119 said:


> Well it's been a wile since I posted a picture. This my latest creation. *I can't claim the idea I saw a picture somewhere of a letter opener. I don't remember who it was or can I find it again to give them credit.* .....
> Comments, criticism, opinions, suggestions all welcome.
> Thanks
> Bruce


 
So, it looks like someone else had developed a method of casting a circuit board in resin before Bruce... perhaps it was THAT person who got with Berea, wouldn't that be a hoot!

The simple fact is that we just don't know any of the facts but hey, don't let the lack of any factual data get in the way of a good lynching!

Mob mentality.... you gotta love it! :tongue:


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## DozerMite

jttheclockman said:


> Stop and think now. If Bruce sold the idea to them why is he charging us almost twice as much????
> 
> I just posted a little tidbit in Casual Conversation about Ruth Niles bottle stoppers being ripped off and she has a patten on them. The guy went to Canada to make them to bypass the patent laws. Did someone say Scruples???




Patents are a joke! They are worthless and a waste of money. There is no need to go to Canada to get around them. If you don't want an idea, design, or anything else copied, you have to keep it to yourself and never let another person know about it. If there is money to be made, it will be copied.


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## Rudy Vey

wizical said:


> I think people jump the gun before they have to facts, lets see what happens



"I think people jump the gun before they have to facts" - so common here lately.


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## rjwolfe3

Hey, which way did that rabbit go

Ooops, wrong thread.

This was the dogpile one.:laugh:


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## ldb2000

All you folks who are doing a dogpile on berea hold on a second , oobak just posted about a rabbit he wants to get rid of ......DOGPILE ON THE RABBIT DOGPILE ON THE RABBIT :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:


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## bruce119

*I didn't have a clue*



Grizz said:


> Maybe Bruce was in on it. Wait for the facts.


 
Well I was waiting for this to hit it was on his site yesterday. And NO I was not in on it. I was approached by Berea & A.S. But the way I do it with a REAL circuit board out of a REAL computer take a LOT of time I can only make about 25 a week and that is a full long hard week.

Berea contacted me the day before it was released and told me out of courtesy. Hmmmm I figured someone would do this they get our ideas and they have the money backing to produce them.

I mite have an opportunity as a reseller to offer these. He is sending me a kit I need to see it. These are built for the Sierra Vista ONLY and mass produced in one style as far as I know. 

I am sure most will not care if it is one style and not from a real computer. Mine are made from recycled real computer boards. 

Anyway I don't want to get into a bad mouthing thing I'm still a little shaken by it. I am just a disabled guy doing this for fun just trying to make ends meet.

When I get the kit I will report on what I think the quality is. Then I maybe be able to offer them as a group buy at a slightly reduced price if there is enough interest.

Thank you everyone for your support.
Bruce


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## bruce119

Skye said:


> *Screw Berea!* There's a ton of other things they could have taken up without ripping off someone's creation.
> 
> No Bruce, no boards! N Bruce, no boards!


 
Thank you Skye I really appreciate the support. I put my heart and sole into these things. They are made the old fashion way. With blood sweat & tears. Not with big bucks and mass production. Mine are truly one of a kind.

Bruce


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## jttheclockman

Bruce

Are you saying these are decals???  They will all look like the one pictured???? Will wait for your thoughts. Sorry to hear about this.


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## Skye

Texatdurango said:


> So, it looks like someone else had developed a method of casting a circuit board in resin before Bruce... perhaps it was THAT person who got with Berea, wouldn't that be a hoot!





bruce119 said:


> I was approached by Berea & A.S.



Well, that pretty much shoots that theory down, hate to burst your bubble.

I'd say the fact they approaced Bruce pretty much nails down the fact that they got the idea by seeing one of his blanks. The bullet pens at PS, the circuit boards at Berea, wonder what's next.

I like the circuit board pens, I'd like to make one but there's no way in hell I'm buying one from anyone but Bruce, even if it limits my ability to build one. Some people will claim that all is fail in capitalism and war, but just because it's a capitalist society does not negate respect or giving credit where credit is due.

There's two types of people in the world, I know which I am.


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## tbroye

Bruce

I buy pen kits from Brea and AS and like their service.  BUT on this I am willing to pay more for the real thing.  I also like the idea of supporting some one who is disabled and trying to make it on his own, no pity, just support.  I will alway try to buy from member at IAP if at all possible and still use the comercial vendors as well.  You supply a niche item which up until now, no one else did, your idea you should prosper from it.  Let me know when you next batch is ready.


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## Skye

jttheclockman said:


> Bruce
> 
> Are you saying these are decals???  They will all look like the one pictured???? Will wait for your thoughts. Sorry to hear about this.



From what their website says, "This pen kit is made using a real, but non-functional circuit board." so I'm assuming it's a real circuit board with real circuitry in it, but if it were in it's non-pen state it would not be functional because it's just made to look like a functional board.


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## tbroye

Don't ever try to put the number 3 or 24 or 48 amongst others  on your race car.  If you do it better be a different style and color.  The have gone after people for copying these numbers as the color, style and shape are trademarked.  Number 8 is probably the same.


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## LostintheWoods

Standard Sierra bushings are 20A---Sierra Vista bushings are 70A. These 50A bushings are only used on pens w/pre-fitted tubes--the circuit board pen, and the "tropical series" pens (white coconut, brown coconut, abalone, and mother of pearl>)


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## Grizz

Okay,  Now I'll make a comment... Berea owes you some kind of numeration for the idea if nothing else.   That really ticks me off and it takes a lot to do so!  I'm writing a letter to Berea and I beseech others here to do like wise.


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## NewLondon88

Grizz said:


> Maybe Bruce was in on it.  Wait for the facts.



Nonsense!  I see a conclusion, I say "How High?"

.. no wait .. that's not how it goes..


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## bruce119

jttheclockman said:


> Bruce
> 
> Are you saying these are decals??? They will all look like the one pictured???? Will wait for your thoughts. Sorry to hear about this.


 
Please don't put words in my mouth I did NOT say they were decals or paper. I am fairly sure they were produced with the same process a real circuit board is produced(I don't know). I just said mine are made from real boards out of real working computers. Circuit boards are just laminated layers of fiber all you need is that last layer. That's the secret I don't mind telling it now. Now to get that last layer is all the work. Now if I had some big bucks and a circuit board manufacture connection I could have come up with something on a large scale. But I am not big business nor do I have the desire I just had the ideas. Too bad I could not follow through or even get credit.

Bruce


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## tbroye

I will still buy kits from Brea and AS and will use Bruce's blanks to make the pens.  I wonder what Brea's costs are to have them made.


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## chriselle

Skye said:


> all is *fail* in capitalism and war,
> There's two types of people in the world, I know which I am.



I'm with ya comrade!!:biggrin:


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## jttheclockman

Hey Grizz

Just wanted to compliment you on your web site. Very well done.


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## BruceK

Bruce,

So you only get one crummy kit as a "reward" for them using your idea?  That's a pretty low blow on Berea's part.  

I don't think you have to worry one bit about them taking away any of the demand for your blanks.  I have 5 of your blanks stashed away and almost bought some more when you last posted, but figured I'd wouldn't be to greedy.  I like the "uniqueness" of yours and that no two are the same.  I imagine the Berea ones will all be same thing.  At least we here at IAP know where the credit is due.


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## Grizz

jttheclockman said:


> Hey Grizz
> 
> Just wanted to compliment you on your web site. Very well done.



Thanks, I just need to keep up with it better.  Christmas came and many things went.  I'm sure I'll go a while now with out selling anything and can get caught up.


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## wizical

. Some people will claim that all is fail in capitalism and war, but just because it's a capitalist society does not negate respect or giving credit where credit is due.

There's two types of people in the world, I know which I am.[/QUOTE]

I agree with you on giving credit to where it is due, and all credit to Bruce for making these really cool pen blanks.  I think they are great and look good when they are done.  

If I have a product that I think that will make a lot of money, I will do anything in my power to either sell it to a company or get it copyright/trademark, whatever.  

Every situation is different when it comes to this stuff, The bullet pen is interesting enough, but if the product from PSI isnt that good, then dont buy it(the same applies to this blank)

im very appreciative we have this forum to discuss and spread our opinion about the art of penmaking.  Companies are going to pop up with similar products and offer similar products,but in the end result, this will give us more choices when we are ready to buy.  This process will also weed out the bad items to make sure we have quality products to buy.

bottomline, if bruce's blanks are better than berea's.  Then we will continue to buy from him and not from berea.


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## TribalRR

I for one think this is BS and not only will I not buy Berea's PCB kit, I will no longer buy anything from them! They could have atleast gave him credit for the design.


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## babyblues

Texatdurango said:


> What.... IAP members jump the gun? Never! :wink:
> 
> Man, it is SO easy to get a dogpile going around here and it is hilarious to watch so many make such bold statements without having a clue as to what the facts are.
> 
> For anyone interested in a fact.... I went back and read Bruce's original post made back in May 2008 where he first introduced his circuit board pen and he said in part...
> 
> 
> So, it looks like someone else had developed a method of casting a circuit board in resin before Bruce... perhaps it was THAT person who got with Berea, wouldn't that be a hoot!
> 
> The simple fact is that we just don't know any of the facts but hey, don't let the lack of any factual data get in the way of a good lynching!
> 
> Mob mentality.... you gotta love it! :tongue:



Great post, George!

Did anyone see this post?!  Here's the link to the thread in the Show Off Your Pens forum where Bruce posted a picture of his circuit board pen.  He admits in the first paragraph that IT'S NOT HIS IDEA!!!!!!!!!

http://www.penturners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=6766&highlight=circuit+board

Bruce,
I appreciate the work that you put into your blanks, and I will say that if I ever want to buy a circuit board blank, I will buy one of yours.  But the fact that you admitted it wasn't your original idea, then came on here and implied that Berea has done you some wrong by taking your idea is not being truthful.


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## Gary Max

Gee I wonder if that's why some members stop posting pics of their newest designer pen here?????????????
Bruce I know what you mean about making ends meet---heck we are trying to keep the heat on this year.


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## Skye

babyblues said:


> But the fact that you admitted it wasn't your original idea, then came on here and implied that Berea has done you some wrong by taking your idea is pretty deceitful.



*Deceitful*? He's hid nothing so either you've got either a loose understanding of the English language or a loose understanding of the situation. Possibly both.

Bruce admitted he saw it somewhere else but couldn't remember where and was not able to give the person credit. There's absolutly no deceit in anything he's done or said.

The bottom line is that Berea, _thinking_ it was solely Bruce's idea, stepped in and told him that they were going to start selling them. Regardless of who's idea it was in it's very infancy, Berea stepped in and basically said "I'll be taking those sales from you, thanks."  Same bull as Penn State with the bullet pen idea. It's the person with the most money and resources taking fresh ideas from the smaller, shipping work overseas, producing an inferior product, and selling to the uninformed masses. But hey, if that's your bag....


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## PR_Princess

I think what happened to Bruce is a travesty. It was predicable, but it still saddens me. Worse, I believe that things like this will only serve to stymie creativity and the furtherance of pen turning in the long term. 

But you guys are the customers. The pen supply buyers. No matter where you stand on this issue, perhaps you should let your feelings be heard more directly.

Here is a link to Berea's "Contact Us" page -

http://bereahardwoods.com/Merchant5/merchant.mvc?Screen=cp-contact-us


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## babyblues

Skye said:


> *Deceitful*? He's hid nothing so either you've got either a loose understanding of the English language or a loose understanding of the situation. Possibly both.
> 
> Bruce admitted he saw it somewhere else but couldn't remember where and was not able to give the person credit. There's absolutly no deceit in anything he's done or said.
> 
> The bottom line is that Berea, _thinking_ it was solely Bruce's idea, stepped in and told him that they were going to start selling them. Regardless of who's idea it was in it's very infancy, Berea stepped in and basically said "I'll be taking those sales from you, thanks."  Same bull as Penn State with the bullet pen idea. It's the person with the most money and resources taking fresh ideas from the smaller, shipping work overseas, producing an inferior product, and selling to the uninformed masses. But hey, if that's your bag....


OK, if you want to do this publicly, we'll do it publicly.

First:  For the record, I changed my post.  "Deceitful" was a bit strong so I thought better of it.

Second:  Correct me if I'm wrong, because...you know...I don't understand the English language or the situation very well, but did he even mention the fact that he didn't come up with the idea in response to this thread?  No.  But I assume you already knew that and chose to ignore it.  That's just plain ignorant.  Did you even read my post?  What I said was that it was not truthful to imply that Berea had done him wrong by stealing his idea...and here's the important part so I'm making it all caps so you'll see it...WHEN IT WASN'T HIS IDEA!!!!!  But of course I'm just working from a "loose" understanding of the word "truthful", so please enlighten me.

What is there to misunderstand here?!  Unless you're a psychic, I doubt very much that you know what Berea was thinking.  If they did see Bruce's post on this site, it's likely they would have known that he didn't claim the idea was his.

If you're going to make ignorant comments about uninformed masses, maybe you should inform yourself before making yourself look stupid.  And you know what?  If Berea can make them better for less than I say, more power to them.  In reality, their product isn't better than Bruce's, so who really cares about their crappy blanks?!  I support Bruce for making a superior product and I'd rather give one of our members business, but I'm not going to act like an idiot because of some misguided sense of honor or loyalty.  But hey, if that's your bag...


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## sbell111

Skye said:


> ... Bruce admitted he saw it somewhere else but couldn't remember where and was not able to give the person credit. There's absolutly no deceit in anything he's done or said.
> 
> The bottom line is that Berea, _thinking_ it was solely Bruce's idea, stepped in and told him that they were going to start selling them.


Objection.  Facts not in evidence.

How do we know that Berea didn't see Bruce's earlier post where he explains that it wasn't his idea?  Are you really just angry because they notified him of their intentions?  Why does this bother you so?

If it were me, I would have simply shifted gears and started producing my circuit blanks for cigar kits or some other.  That way, Berea would siphon some of my business in Sierras, but they would not compete in the other kits I decided to make.  Either way, competition is a fact of life and it keeps things business healthy.





Skye said:


> Regardless of who's idea it was in it's very infancy, Berea stepped in and basically said "I'll be taking those sales from you, thanks."  Same bull as Penn State with the bullet pen idea. It's the person with the most money and resources taking fresh ideas from the smaller, shipping work overseas, producing an inferior product, and selling to the uninformed masses. But hey, if that's your bag....


While I agree that Penn State's bullet pen is inferior to the real deal, it is clear on their website that it is not a 'real bullet' kit.  Even if it was, why would we have a problem with them offering it.  After all, many people make bullet pens and several of them offer the bits for sale.  Why shouldn't one of our suppliers get into the game.

Given that a number of people make this type of item (at least two based on Bruce's post), what is the big deal about a company adding the product to it's offerings?

Given that a number of people make these curcuit board castings (at least two based on Bruce's post), what is the big deal about a company adding the product to it's offerings?

When did competition become an evil thing?  Why shouldn't companies be allowed to add to their product lines to increase sales?


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## GouletPens

Boy, for a second there I was getting really worried this was turning into another "jigsaw pen" fiasco. Remember that one everybody?! We sure tend to be a bunch of shoot first ask questions later kinda crowd, huh? 

Morally, I think that Bruce should at least get some publicity from Berea about the design or concept, and maybe a little kickback. But hey, I'd also like to have the county assess my house at what it's actually worth, and my politicians to be honest and frugal! This seems to be another one of those unfortunate situations where the "big business" is taking advantage of the little guy (sorry Bruce). 

Patents aren't USELESS, but they are just like any "law", they have to be enforced. All a patent is going to do is give you the legal backing to be able to sue and possibly get your competition to stop making your design after they've already done it. There are no patent police out there enforcing it for you. Now if Bruce even had the time, patience, and money to patent his design, he'd STILL have to take Berea to court to get them to stop from making the design. The odds are stacked against the little guy in this respect. But hey, has anyone tried to start their own business lately?! I know I get taxed twice to start and it gets added on TOP of my wife's salary before I get to see a dime. The "man" is trying to hold us all down!!! RON PAUL 2008!!! Oh, sorry, a little distracted there.


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## GouletPens

Gary Max said:


> Gee I wonder if that's why some members stop posting pics of their newest designer pen here?????????????
> Bruce I know what you mean about making ends meet---heck we are trying to keep the heat on this year.


 Hey, hey now Gary! Don't discourage people from posting their pen designs here! Lord knows there wouldn't be half the pen designs out there if we didn't all steal them from each other! :biggrin:


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## Texatdurango

I see a lot of outrage about Berea making these kits and can't help but wonder, would we see the same outrage if another IAP member decided to start making the same PCB kit, offering it for sale at a lower price?  Something tells me the discussion would be totally different.

In the past their have been discussions about members taking (barrowing, stealing or whichever term you choose) other members ideas and selling identical items, undercutting their business and yet I didn't see the same outrage then.  Actually, comments such as "It's a free country"  "A little competition is good"  "They should have applied for a patent" and the like seemed to be the concensus in previous discussions.

So, where does our moral compass point when it comes to someone taking someone elses idea for profit?  I think some of the compass needles are bouncing in every direction and they change from one thread to another.


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## the_benz

*Why all the fuss*

The beauty of a free enterprise country.  Why are you so negative about this and not have the same issues with all the pen kits being copied and stolen all the time.  Look at the Sierra copied to the Aero and Gatsby. Or what about the Snake skin blanks,  coffee bean blanks, how may folks are selling them now?  Bullet pens, everyone and their brother are trying to make.  With Bruces blank I will have $35 in a pen, with Berea, $20.  As a business man, that translates into a much bigger margin and profit in my pocket.

Buy the stuff from guy that has the quality you are looking for and/or a price you are willing to pay.


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## wizical

babyblues said:


> OK, if you want to do this publicly, we'll do it publicly.
> 
> First:  For the record, I changed my post.  "Deceitful" was a bit strong so I thought better of it.
> 
> Second:  Correct me if I'm wrong, because...you know...I don't understand the English language or the situation very well, but did he even mention the fact that he didn't come up with the idea in response to this thread?  No.  But I assume you already knew that and chose to ignore it.  That's just plain ignorant.  Did you even read my post?  What I said was that it was not truthful to imply that Berea had done him wrong by stealing his idea...and here's the important part so I'm making it all caps so you'll see it...WHEN IT WASN'T HIS IDEA!!!!!  But of course I'm just working from a "loose" understanding of the word "truthful", so please enlighten me.
> 
> What is there to misunderstand here?!  Unless you're a psychic, I doubt very much that you know what Berea was thinking.  If they did see Bruce's post on this site, it's likely they would have known that he didn't claim the idea was his.
> 
> If you're going to make ignorant comments about uninformed masses, maybe you should inform yourself before making yourself look stupid.  And you know what?  If Berea can make them better for less than I say, more power to them.  In reality, their product isn't better than Bruce's, so who really cares about their crappy blanks?!  I support Bruce for making a superior product and I'd rather give one of our members business, but I'm not going to act like an idiot because of some misguided sense of honor or loyalty.  But hey, if that's your bag...



I agree with you on this, he spoke way too soon before he knew what he was talking about.


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## Druid

I've been following this thread to gauge folks reaction and have to admit, this thread worries me in more ways than one could count.

Here is why:
I am a newcomer to this organization and came here to exchange information on new creative ideas as well as learn from those who are good at what they do... and believe me... there are a lot of you folks that have and SHARE your tremendous talent here. The outcome of this thread is beginning to question whether or not we should exchange our concepts/ideas in a public forum.  I'm beginning to start thinking.. geez, what happens if I like what someone is doing and improve the product, if I sell an improved product that looks the same will I run the risk of being "black-balled" or better yet, the ole' way of justice?

This forum represents the proud entrepreneur spirit that built this country.  As a matter of fact, my sales have increased over 30% since I joined just by applying some of the techniques/methods folks were kind enough to share.  I do this as a hobby and you folks have put the fun back into my hobby.  That's a quality of life factor that cannot be measured by anyone but me & my family.  My appreciation & thanks goes out to everyone here.

Now back to the subject of this thread.  Bruce's game is not over, as a matter of fact, with a little bit of help and marketing, we could help him use this to his advantage as many other small business have done with the corporate giants.  

If you don't like what Berea and others have and WILL do in the future, boycott them.  The lifecycle of that product is driven by supply & demand.  You have the power to influence demand.  Or better yet, form a co-op venture with Bruce where everyone wins and in the process we are helping a good guy out.

My two cents for what its worth


----------



## wolftat

This is an issue that one of our members has with a vendor that we all use. Unless we are asked to get involved with this, maybe we should wait and let Bruce work things out and then help him as much as we possibly can. I consider Bruce a friend and will be there if I am asked.


----------



## Skye

*Babyblue,* I'll state it as plainly as I can. If you're unable to see what I'm talking about, I'll quit wasting my breath:

Bruce saw a letter opener (believe it was) which caught his eye. Later he made a pen with the same idea. He was unable to locate the old pic, it's creator, any details about it. From what I've seen on the internet on every pen related site I've come across, I haven't seen anyone else making these for sale. IAP is *the* largest and most popular penturning site on the web, bar none. Bruce admitted he didn't not create this idea, but was able to start making them and was selling them. Given that from what I've seen, there is no other vendor for them and we don't know if the originator is ever selling them or made one and quit, then Bruce isnt taking bread out of his mouth.

On the other hand, Berea comes to this site, notices Bruce has carved a niche for himself with the circuit pens and informs him they're going to start carrying them and I don't think anyone else does apparently. Did Berea track down the mysterious letter opener's creator and inform him? Probably not or they would have gotten permission from him, being he was the originator. Berea came in, saw something they liked, saw someone was already selling them, started selling them.

The *major* difference here is from what I can tell, Bruce isn't knowingly taking money from anyone's pocket because he doesn't know another place to find them. Berea on the other hand knows someone else is selling them and chose to produce them regardless. 

If that does not rhyme with your logic, there's no point in me continuing with you because I cannot fathom why this is not perfectly clear.

*Tex* I hate to tell you, but that's happened a few times here. Ideas have been stolen and I know of one idea that's currently a self professed 'belonging' of someone else here who is *not* the first person to use that design. Some people had exactly the same emotions regarding it, others were just willing to let someone get screwed over. Not much different at all.

*It's a free market crowd*, I just can't stand the WalMart mentality. I think that Free Market isnt what it may have used to been. Now a day it's a huge business crushing a small business. How many people here are left with small town businesses? Any little privately owned hardware stores? How about fresh markets? No, nothing but WalMart, Lowes, Home Depot, etc. Some people are happy to see someone get steamrolled, some not. As far as I'm concerned, if someone creates a niche for themselves, let them have it. Is it too much to ask to let someone find something they're known for and let them be the go-to guy for that product? 

What's next. Will someone figure out how to make the *PRPrincess*' cat blanks and we're all going to say "Hey, whoever can give me the best price!"? *Ruth Niles* is now having her bottle stoppers duplicated by someone in Canada that bought a stopper directly from her. Anyone going to send her an email and tell her "Hey, that's capitalism, get used to it."?


----------



## Skip_Evans

*Computer board pen*

I have seen the computer pens and like them. I am in IT and a lot of guys might like them
How do we contact Bruce119?


----------



## rjwolfe3

PM here at the forum and watch for his ad in the classified


----------



## wizical

Skye said:


> *Babyblue,* I'll state it as plainly as I can. If you're unable to see what I'm talking about, I'll quit wasting my breath:
> 
> Bruce saw a letter opener (believe it was) which caught his eye. Later he made a pen with the same idea. He was unable to locate the old pic, it's creator, any details about it. From what I've seen on the internet on every pen related site I've come across, I haven't seen anyone else making these for sale. IAP is *the* largest and most popular penturning site on the web, bar none. Bruce admitted he didn't not create this idea, but was able to start making them and was selling them. Given that from what I've seen, there is no other vendor for them and we don't know if the originator is ever selling them or made one and quit, then Bruce isnt taking bread out of his mouth.
> 
> On the other hand, Berea comes to this site, notices Bruce has carved a niche for himself with the circuit pens and informs him they're going to start carrying them and I don't think anyone else does apparently. Did Berea track down the mysterious letter opener's creator and inform him? Probably not or they would have gotten permission from him, being he was the originator. Berea came in, saw something they liked, saw someone was already selling them, started selling them.
> 
> The *major* difference here is from what I can tell, Bruce isn't knowingly taking money from anyone's pocket because he doesn't know another place to find them. Berea on the other hand knows someone else is selling them and chose to produce them regardless.
> 
> If that does not rhyme with your logic, there's no point in me continuing with you because I cannot fathom why this is not perfectly clear.
> 
> *Tex* I hate to tell you, but that's happened a few times here. Ideas have been stolen and I know of one idea that's currently a self professed 'belonging' of someone else here who is *not* the first person to use that design. Some people had exactly the same emotions regarding it, others were just willing to let someone get screwed over. Not much different at all.
> 
> *It's a free market crowd*, I just can't stand the WalMart mentality. I think that Free Market isnt what it may have used to been. Now a day it's a huge business crushing a small business. How many people here are left with small town businesses? Any little privately owned hardware stores? How about fresh markets? No, nothing but WalMart, Lowes, Home Depot, etc. Some people are happy to see someone get steamrolled, some not. As far as I'm concerned, if someone creates a niche for themselves, let them have it. Is it too much to ask to let someone find something they're known for and let them be the go-to guy for that product?
> 
> What's next. Will someone figure out how to make the *PRPrincess*' cat blanks and we're all going to say "Hey, whoever can give me the best price!"? *Ruth Niles* is now having her bottle stoppers duplicated by someone in Canada that bought a stopper directly from her. Anyone going to send her an email and tell her "Hey, that's capitalism, get used to it."?



Your posts dont make any sense.  What you are pretty much saying is competition is bad and we should only buy from certain people and not find a better price for what we need? 

People find their niche and start making a little money, but in business, you have to adapt to what is going on around you to continue making that money.  You have to come up with ways to cut costs, improve sales or market your product better if similar products come out onto the market(case in point, what is going on here and in other industries as well).

but i have noticed this point hasnt seem to sunk in all that much, which tells me that you are not very good in business and you dont like competition.  everyone on here sells their pens just like you, does that mean we have to stop selling pens cause you sell them too???


----------



## Skye

It's not going to be a competition. If Bruce is making them and selling them at what a price that he can afford, there's no way Berea isn't going (and they have) to undercut that price with cheap labor and lesser quality. They've got much more manpower and resources than Bruce, so it's not a competition. A competition would mean that there's a chance the underdog can win, and in this case I don't see that happening. And even if I can talk myself into qualifying it as a competition, then no, I don't see it as a good thing. I don't know where everyone gets this black-and-white mindframe that all competition of product and sales is without exception a good thing. In general it's a good idea, but there's exceptions and I think this is a heck of an exception.

You have to adapt? If that's the case, why bother patenting things? Why bother trademarking things? Simple, to negate that competition. I don't see you lobbying against patent rights.

Yes, everyone here has to stop selling pens. That's exactly what I'm conveying. Also, you have to stop using the words 'and' and 'everyone' because I use them too. Since I'm such a bad salesman and my website isn't up, you mind giving me the source files for yours? I may as well duplicate your website and just put my own pics in there. Hey, you're going to just have to redo yours and make it better.


----------



## sbell111

Skye said:


> ... What's next. Will someone figure out how to make the *PRPrincess*' cat blanks and we're all going to say "Hey, whoever can give me the best price!"?


This might not be the best example.  I may very well be mistaken, but I think that she is importing these for resale.  (I have seen very similar items offered for import.)  As such, why would it be a problem if someone also sold them?

There was a time when I was creating some items that are used in one of my hobbies and selling them.  Some of the items that I sold were completely my own design while some were merely slightly different than what was already available elsewhere.  Eventually, others came into the market.  Some undercut my price.  I lost market share.

This forced me to tweak my offerings.  Some changes made the product better allowing me to have marketing advantage.  Some changes allowed me to offer for less price giving me a competitive advantage.  On a couple items, however, I could not gain a competitive advantage, so I stopped offering those items.  What I didn't do is boo-hoo over the fact that other people offer similar items to mine.


----------



## alphageek

Skye said:


> It's not going to be a competition. If Bruce is making them and selling them at what a price that he can afford, there's no way Berea isn't going (and they have) to undercut that price with cheap labor and lesser quality. They've got much more manpower and resources than Bruce, so it's not a competition. A competition would mean that there's a chance the underdog can win, and in this case I don't see that happening. And even if I can talk myself into qualifying it as a competition, then no, I don't see it as a good thing. I don't know where everyone gets this black-and-white mindframe that all competition of product and sales is without exception a good thing. In general it's a good idea, but there's exceptions and I think this is a heck of an exception.



I'm going to throw my wooden nickel in here... I've not posted in this yet and am avoiding the whole should they/shouldn't they have debate.

That being said, I think you are probably wrong here in this part.   If you look at this as direct competition, you may be right about Bruce not winning... But this isn't direct competition.   Bruce has several things going for him, including but not limited to a)a more unique product with colors, etc b) a strong following c) a direct market with this site.    

I havn't ordered any of his blanks yet, but I have been following them as they've been changed.   If I'm not mistaken he sells all he makes and even gets backed up by requests. If thats not true, then I appologize..

Will the other blanks sell?  Probably.   Will Bruce be able to continue to sell? I think so.   Will Bruce 'lose'?   I think only Bruce can decide that.  I think of this almost the same way as gold vs Ti gold slimlines... Two different prices/markets/customers, but both continue to sell.  Bruce has the 'ti gold' product in this market IMO.


----------



## sbell111

Skye said:


> It's not going to be a competition. If Bruce is making them and selling them at what a price that he can afford, there's no way Berea isn't going (and they have) to undercut that price with cheap labor and lesser quality.


Objection.  Facts not in evidence.


Skye said:


> They've got much more manpower and resources than Bruce, so it's not a competition. A competition would mean that there's a chance the underdog can win, and in this case I don't see that happening. And even if I can talk myself into qualifying it as a competition, then no, I don't see it as a good thing. I don't know where everyone gets this black-and-white mindframe that all competition of product and sales is without exception a good thing. In general it's a good idea, but there's exceptions and I think this is a heck of an exception.


What do you mean 'win'.  I seriously doubt that Bruce ever thought that he would buy that new cabin cruiser with the procedes from his circuit board blanks.  It's much more likely that he discovered that he could make some cool pen blanks and offered some to us.  He would make a few bucks on them, but I doubt that he ever viewed them as the road to financial peace or expected that the market would be his (at his chosen prices) forever.





Skye said:


> You have to adapt? If that's the case, why bother patenting things? Why bother trademarking things? Simple, to negate that competition. I don't see you lobbying against patent rights.
> 
> Yes, everyone here has to stop selling pens. That's exactly what I'm conveying. Also, you have to stop using the words 'and' and 'everyone' because I use them too. Since I'm such a bad salesman and my website isn't up, you mind giving me the source files for yours? I may as well duplicate your website and just put my own pics in there. Hey, you're going to just have to redo yours and make it better.


Ummm, Bruce didn't create the idea of casting stuff in resin to make blanks out of them, nor did he create the idea of using circuit boards in his castings.  His blanks are awesome and I am certainly glad that he has been able to make a little money off his hard work and hope that he chooses to adapt so he can make more, but his circuit board blank is not patentable.


----------



## wizical

Skye said:


> It's not going to be a competition. If Bruce is making them and selling them at what a price that he can afford, there's no way Berea isn't going (and they have) to undercut that price with cheap labor and lesser quality. They've got much more manpower and resources than Bruce, so it's not a competition. A competition would mean that there's a chance the underdog can win, and in this case I don't see that happening. And even if I can talk myself into qualifying it as a competition, then no, I don't see it as a good thing. I don't know where everyone gets this black-and-white mindframe that all competition of product and sales is without exception a good thing. In general it's a good idea, but there's exceptions and I think this is a heck of an exception.
> 
> You have to adapt? If that's the case, why bother patenting things? Why bother trademarking things? Simple, to negate that competition. I don't see you lobbying against patent rights.
> 
> Yes, everyone here has to stop selling pens. That's exactly what I'm conveying. Also, you have to stop using the words 'and' and 'everyone' because I use them too. Since I'm such a bad salesman and my website isn't up, you mind giving me the source files for yours? I may as well duplicate your website and just put my own pics in there. Hey, you're going to just have to redo yours and make it better.



It is amazing that you still dont get it.  This is still competition for the product, no matter how you look at it.  And if people want the best products, they know where to go.  

look at the computer industry...they do it all the time, things are patented and trademark for a reason, so when someone breaks it, there are consequences for it

I like the look of bruce's pen blanks, But if he did not protect his idea by patent or trademark, then anyone could have taken it and used it for their gain.  I dont condone stealing ideas from other people, but it happens all the time.   

If you want to take my website, their is nothing i can do to stop you.  It just shows that you are plagiarizing and cannot come up with something original.

if you want to continue selling your products, you have to adapt to what is going on around you, come up with new products and market them.  Business is ever changing and you have to be in the know to survive.


----------



## babyblues

Skye said:


> *Babyblue,* I'll state it as plainly as I can. If you're unable to see what I'm talking about, I'll quit wasting my breath:
> 
> Bruce saw a letter opener (believe it was) which caught his eye. Later he made a pen with the same idea. He was unable to locate the old pic, it's creator, any details about it. From what I've seen on the internet on every pen related site I've come across, I haven't seen anyone else making these for sale. IAP is *the* largest and most popular penturning site on the web, bar none. Bruce admitted he didn't not create this idea, but was able to start making them and was selling them. Given that from what I've seen, there is no other vendor for them and we don't know if the originator is ever selling them or made one and quit, then Bruce isnt taking bread out of his mouth.


Most of this isn't in dispute, so I guess you have indeed wasted your breath.  What I take away from this drivel is you think that regardless of who actually comes up with the idea originally, the first person to start selling the product has dibs on the market?!  PREPOSTEROUS!!!!  If it's not Bruce's original idea, than it doesn't matter if he's the first one to start selling them or not.  Completely irrelavant.  



Skye said:


> On the other hand, Berea comes to this site, notices Bruce has carved a niche for himself with the circuit pens and informs him they're going to start carrying them and I don't think anyone else does apparently. Did Berea track down the mysterious letter opener's creator and inform him? Probably not or they would have gotten permission from him, being he was the originator. Berea came in, saw something they liked, saw someone was already selling them, started selling them.


Once again, too much speculation here.  I don't know why Berea contacted Bruce to tell him and frankly, I don't really care.  Did Bruce track down this mysterious letter opener's creator and inform him that he was going to start selling based on that idea?  No.  So, why is Berea being crucified in part because of this?  Bruce just started selling them with little to no regard for who came up with the idea in the first place.  And you seem fine with that, so that shouldn't even be a problem.  Berea may have seen something they liked and thought would go well with the rest of their products, but where do you get off claiming that they started selling that product because someone else already was?!  That's absurd and also irrelavant.



Skye said:


> The *major* difference here is from what I can tell, Bruce isn't knowingly taking money from anyone's pocket because he doesn't know another place to find them. Berea on the other hand knows someone else is selling them and chose to produce them regardless.


Irrelavant for the same reason as above.  Who started selling first is of no consequence if that person didn't come up with the idea for the product.



Skye said:


> If that does not rhyme with your logic, there's no point in me continuing with you because I cannot fathom why this is not perfectly clear.


There wasn't any point to your posts in this thread in the first place, so don't let me stop you.


----------



## Skye

babyblues said:


> Who started selling first is of no consequence if that person didn't come up with the idea for the product.



I think that's the boiled down version of your whole viewpoint, which I totally disagree with.

If Curtis made the first cactus blank, it's idea.

If Curtis decides to never sell them, I think someone else should be free to do so.

If Curtis decides to sell his idea, I think he should get cart blanche.

If someone else decides they cannot do without selling them while Curtis is selling them, then Curtis should get credit for the design or compensation.


----------



## rjwolfe3

So how bout them Tigers?


----------



## THarvey

*Give it a rest.*

This entire thread has become idiotic.

The markets that Berea and Bruce serve has a very small overlap.  From everything Bruce has said he makes all he can and sells all he makes available.  He also said in his post here that he could not mass produce like Berea and AS would want.  If there is a discussion to be had it is not IAP's business to mediate it.

Now, all I see of the remainder of the dribble in this thread is a group of IAP members, who have no stake in the market, taking cheap (*even personal*) shots at each other.  That serves no purpose, except to create hard feelings between members of this great community.

I think we all need to step back to let this issue and our tempers cool a bit.


----------



## pipeyeti

Those tigers were mine first


----------



## sbell111

Skye said:


> If Curtis made the first cactus blank, it's idea.
> 
> If Curtis decides to never sell them, I think someone else should be free to do so.


Let's take your theory one more step out:

Curtis didn't sell any of his, and Amos figures out how to make them and starts selling them.  You state that you have no problem with this.

What if Bubba wants to start selling them after Amos has been selling them for a bit?  Is he OK to sell them, or must Amos be the solo seller, even though Amos didn't initiate the idea?


----------



## babyblues

Skye said:


> I think that's the boiled down version of your whole viewpoint, which I totally disagree with.
> 
> If Curtis made the first cactus blank, it's idea.
> 
> If Curtis decides to never sell them, I think someone else should be free to do so.
> 
> If Curtis decides to sell his idea, I think he should get cart blanche.
> 
> If someone else decides they cannot do without selling them while Curtis is selling them, then Curtis should get credit for the design or compensation.



Good grief.

If Curtis made the first cactus blank but didn't sell them and Skye decided he was going to sell them, Skye has no basis for complaint if someone else starts selling them too.

Thus far, I haven't seen you come to the realization that the seller and the originator of the circuit board cast in resin idea ARE NOT THE SAME PEOPLE.  If you can't or won't acknowledge that then...well...you're welcome to your opinion.  Good luck with that.


----------



## maxwell_smart007

Ok, people, let's restrain ourselves here.  

_Facts_: Berea is now making circuit board pens. You can choose to buy from them or not.  Bruce also makes circuit board pens.  It's also your choice as to whether you want to buy from him or not.  Someone apparently made them before Bruce.  They don't sell them here.  _End of facts.  _

Excessive deliberation about a topic we know little about is pointless at best, and harmful at the worst.  At the very least, let's stop criticizing each others' arguing style...

Remember, personal attacks on character are not tolerated as per the forum rules.


----------



## bruce119

babyblues said:


> Did Bruce track down this mysterious letter opener's creator and inform him that he was going to start selling based on that idea? No. So, why is Berea being crucified in part because of this? Bruce just started selling them with little to no regard for who came up with the idea in the first place.


 
"No" NOT TRUE please don't put words in my mouth.

I am overwhelmed with all the support. Lets try and keep the flames down I don't want anyone taking this into the street and beating on each other.

I will continue to do what I have been doing. Making these and having fun doing it.

Thanks everyone again
Bruce


----------



## babyblues

bruce119 said:


> "No" NOT TRUE please don't put words in my mouth.



I wasn't putting words in your mouth.  I never credited you with saying anything.  I was merely making a point.

Do you really think it's right to claim that you are the "birth place of the printed circuit board computer blanks" considering it wasn't your idea?  I'm just asking the question because I'm interested to know your take on this.  I have no problem with you selling your blanks, but I won't be buying any if you claim to be the first to make them even after admitting that you weren't.  It might seem like splitting hairs, but I really don't like dishonesty.  That might be neither here nor there for you, and that's fine, but I stand by my statement.

However, I will try to show respect for you as a person and discontinue arguing my point.


----------



## thewishman

I enjoy making Bruce's blanks into pens. The "real, genuine" mother and other boards makes those blanks unique and interesting. Nothing simulating this look will be the same as the "real" thing.

The other blanks from Berea are not the same, though they do have a similar look. They will appeal to one group of people, Bruce's blanks will appeal to another.


----------



## wizical

thewishman said:


> I enjoy making Bruce's blanks into pens. The "real, genuine" mother and other boards makes those blanks unique and interesting. Nothing simulating this look will be the same as the "real" thing.
> 
> The other blanks from Berea are not the same, though they do have a similar look. They will appeal to one group of people, Bruce's blanks will appeal to another.



amen


----------



## Skye

babyblues said:


> Thus far, I haven't seen you come to the realization that the seller and the originator of the circuit board cast in resin idea ARE NOT THE SAME PEOPLE.  If you can't or won't acknowledge that then...well...you're welcome to your opinion.



I've said time and time again that Bruce DID NOT invent the thing. Did you even read my post?



Skye said:


> *Babyblue,*
> Bruce saw a letter opener (believe it was) which caught his eye. Later he made a pen with the same idea. He was unable to locate the old pic, it's creator, any details about it.



Until you start reading my posts, this is even more pointless than it is, which is pretty pointless.... to a point.


----------



## lwalden

Skippy, is it still rutting season?


----------



## babyblues

Skye said:


> I've said time and time again that Bruce DID NOT invent the thing. Did you even read my post?
> 
> Until you start reading my posts, this is even more pointless than it is, which is pretty pointless.... to a point.



Then there you go.  Bruce didn't invent it so he has no claim to be the only seller.  Thank you.


----------



## sbell111

thewishman said:


> I enjoy making Bruce's blanks into pens. The "real, genuine" mother and other boards makes those blanks unique and interesting. Nothing simulating this look will be the same as the "real" thing. ...


Did I miss something?  I thought that they were going to send one to Bruce who was going to check it out and see if the quality was good.

I assume that you aren't taking the 'non-functioning' quote to mean that these blanks are not from 'real, genuine' mother and other boards.  After all, if you acquire a broken motherboard and make a pen out of it wouldn't that blank be both from a 'non-functioning' circuit board and from a 'real, genuine' motherboard?


----------



## jasonbowman

For anyone who cares and for the record:  Dennis W. Ewing, Sr. it the letter opener's creator (and he did not share the process out of health and safety concerns)

http://onewoodturn.com/page/vwyx/Neat_Stuff.html

From the yahoo penturner's group:

#94342	From: "Bruce Egolf" <brucee119@...> 
Date: Sat May 10, 2008 7:37 pm 
Subject: Circuit Board Pen	 brucee119 
 Offline 
 Send Email

I can't take credit for the idea. A wile back I saw a picture of a

letter opener. That gave me the inspiration it took weeks of trial and

failures. But I got it working it is very difficult. But it was worth

it. This is a wall street II click. The only kit I had at the time. I

think a sierra vista would be better.



Comments, criticism, opinions, suggestions all welcome.

Thanks

Bruce









http://s129.photobucket.com/albums/p210/bruce119/?

action=view&current=PCpen.jpg






Reply | Forward
#94343	From: Randy Nokes <rwnokes@...> 
Date: Sat May 10, 2008 7:51 pm 
Subject: Re: Circuit Board Pen	 rwnokes 
 Offline 
 Send Email

Bruce



   Cool pen.. Is that cover in resin or do you actaully touch the circuits?



   Randy

http://nokeswoodworks.com



Bruce Egolf <brucee119@...> wrote:

           I can't take credit for the idea. A wile back I saw a picture of a

letter opener. That gave me the inspiration it took weeks of trial and

failures. But I got it working it is very difficult. But it was worth

it. This is a wall street II click. The only kit I had at the time. I

think a sierra vista would be better.



Comments, criticism, opinions, suggestions all welcome.

Thanks

Bruce








http://s129.photobucket.com/albums/p210/bruce119/?

action=view&current=PCpen.jpg













[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






Reply | Forward
#94344	From: "Bruce Egolf" <brucee119@...> 
Date: Sat May 10, 2008 8:33 pm 
Subject: Re: Circuit Board Pen	 brucee119 
 Offline 
 Send Email

It is cast in resin. Basically like a snake skin. It is a real circuit

board sanded paper thin wrap around the tube cast in PR turned and

polished simple as that LOL.



--- In penturners@yahoogroups.com, Randy Nokes <rwnokes@...> wrote:

>

> Bruce

>

>   Cool pen.. Is that cover in resin or do you actaully touch the

circuits?

>

>   Randy

>   http://nokeswoodworks.com

>








Reply | Forward
#94345	From: Randy Nokes <rwnokes@...> 
Date: Sat May 10, 2008 8:39 pm 
Subject: Re: Re: Circuit Board Pen	 rwnokes 
 Offline 
 Send Email

Bruce



   Where do you get the resin, to do smething like this?



   Thanks

   Randy

http://nokeswoodworks.com





Bruce Egolf <brucee119@...> wrote:

           It is cast in resin. Basically like a snake skin. It is a real circuit

board sanded paper thin wrap around the tube cast in PR turned and

polished simple as that LOL.



--- In penturners@yahoogroups.com, Randy Nokes <rwnokes@...> wrote:

>

> Bruce

>

> Cool pen.. Is that cover in resin or do you actaully touch the

circuits?

>

> Randy

> http://nokeswoodworks.com

>













[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






Reply | Forward
#94346	From: "Bruce Egolf" <brucee119@...> 
Date: Sat May 10, 2008 9:50 pm 
Subject: Re: Circuit Board Pen	 brucee119 
 Offline 
 Send Email

That's the easy part I just used casting polyester resin from

Micheles. There are lots of casting techniques in the files. Just

like casting a snake skin in theory.



Good luck

Bruce



--- In penturners@yahoogroups.com, Randy Nokes <rwnokes@...> wrote:

>

> Bruce

>

>   Where do you get the resin, to do smething like this?

>

>   Thanks

>   Randy

>   http://nokeswoodworks.com

>

>

> Bruce Egolf <brucee119@...> wrote:

>           It is cast in resin. Basically like a snake skin. It is a

real circuit

> board sanded paper thin wrap around the tube cast in PR turned and

> polished simple as that LOL.

>

> --- In penturners@yahoogroups.com, Randy Nokes <rwnokes@> wrote:

> >

> > Bruce

> >

> > Cool pen.. Is that cover in resin or do you actaully touch the

> circuits?

> >

> > Randy

> > http://nokeswoodworks.com

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>








Reply | Forward
#94348	From: "granny444555666" <wakerider7000@...> 
Date: Sun May 11, 2008 11:55 am 
Subject: Re: Circuit Board Pen	 granny444555666 
 Offline 
 Send Email

You can also buy a kit that, i would assume, give you the same effect.

  From www.pennstateind.com   They basically allow you to decorate a

pen tube which ever way you please and then cote it in resin.





































--- In penturners@yahoogroups.com, Randy Nokes <rwnokes@...> wrote:

>

> Bruce

>

>   Where do you get the resin, to do smething like this?

>

>   Thanks

>   Randy

>   http://nokeswoodworks.com

>

>

> Bruce Egolf <brucee119@...> wrote:

>           It is cast in resin. Basically like a snake skin. It is a

real circuit

> board sanded paper thin wrap around the tube cast in PR turned and

> polished simple as that LOL.

>

> --- In penturners@yahoogroups.com, Randy Nokes <rwnokes@> wrote:

> >

> > Bruce

> >

> > Cool pen.. Is that cover in resin or do you actaully touch the

> circuits?

> >

> > Randy

> > http://nokeswoodworks.com

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>








Reply | Forward
#94361	From: "Tony Smith" <ajsmith@...> 
Date: Mon May 12, 2008 6:46 am 
Subject: RE: Re: Circuit Board Pen	 dropcat2001 
 Offline 
 Send Email

> It is cast in resin. Basically like a snake skin. It is a

> real circuit board sanded paper thin wrap around the tube

> cast in PR turned and polished simple as that LOL.





That's rather cool, I know a few people who'd like one of those.



How'd you sand it down?  PCB's don't like to be sand or cut much, they're

pretty tough (well, FR4 is).  I know you can get flexible circuit board, but

that stuff's expensive.



I know the obvoius answer is "I rubbed it with sandpaper a lot" or "I

dropped a belt sander on it", but it would be nice if the answer wasn't so

obvious.



Good job keeping the SMDs on there too.  Shame there were no LEDs.  (For the

'eh, what?' - SMD (surface mount device) are the little components still

soldered on, tiny little buggers, and LEDs are lights, available in those

sizes).



Tony






Reply | Forward
#94430	From: "pault587" <pault587@...> 
Date: Thu May 15, 2008 9:05 am 
Subject: Re: Circuit Board Pen	 pault587 
 Offline 
 Send Email

Check out this post also

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/penturners/message/93356



I have a done a couple.  The first time I used an oscillating belt

sander.  I did not like that very much.



The next time I used a random orbital that was better for me.  You have

to get them very thin or they crack.  Also after you thin them out do

NOT try heat, the ones I used cracked.



These are a lot of work require patience and please wear appropriate

safety gear.



Good Luck






Reply | Forward
#94448	From: "pault587" <pault587@...> 
Date: Fri May 16, 2008 9:46 am 
Subject: Re: Circuit Board Pen	 pault587 
 Offline 
 Send Email

http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/penturnersphotos/photos/view/4b15?b=1



This is better








Reply | Forward
#94349	From: "John Stevens" <joyful-noise@...> 
Date: Sun May 11, 2008 1:10 pm 
Subject: Re: Re: Circuit Board Pen	 girapen 
 Offline 
 Send Email

Where is it?

   ----- Original Message -----

   From: granny444555666<mailto:wakerider7000@...>

   To: penturners@yahoogroups.com<mailtoenturners@yahoogroups.com>

   Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2008 8:55 AM

   Subject: [penturners] Re: Circuit Board Pen





   You can also buy a kit that, i would assume, give you the same effect.

    From www.pennstateind.com<http://www.pennstateind.com/>   They basically

allow you to decorate a

   pen tube which ever way you please and then cote it in resin.























[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






Reply | Forward
#94350	From: Richard Kleinhenz <rlkl@...> 
Date: Sun May 11, 2008 2:15 pm 
Subject: Re: Re: Circuit Board Pen	 rkleinhenz 
 Offline 
 Send Email

PSI sells a casting kit that includes resin, catalyst and all the other little

stuff down to plastic cups for mixing and wooden stirrers. 

http://www.pennstateind.com/store/pkcastkit.html  They do NOT sell a

circuitboard thinning kit ;-)



On 5/11/2008 at 10:10 AM John Stevens wrote:



>Where is it?

>  ----- Original Message -----

>  From: granny444555666<mailto:wakerider7000@...>

>

>  You can also buy a kit that, i would assume, give you the same effect.

>   From www.pennstateind.com<http://www.pennstateind.com/>   They

>basically allow you to decorate a

>  pen tube which ever way you please and then cote it in resin.



--

Regards,

Rich

========================================

Richard Kleinhenz

penturners moderator

Keep the group tidy! Delete excess text when quoting!

http://beautifulhandmadepens.com

========================================






Reply | Forward
#94352	From: "Bruce Egolf" <brucee119@...> 
Date: Sun May 11, 2008 7:57 pm 
Subject: Re: Circuit Board Pen	 brucee119 
 Offline 
 Send Email

Thanks Rich



I don't think your gonna buy a kit for a circuit board. It is quite a

process. Not all that easy that is the only one I am working on some

more and still tweeking the process. Maybe when I get it down I mite

revel some tips & tricks. But that will be later on.



Thanks

Bruce from Florida



--- In penturners@yahoogroups.com, Richard Kleinhenz <rlkl@...> wrote:

>

> PSI sells a casting kit that includes resin, catalyst and all the

other little stuff down to plastic cups for mixing and wooden

stirrers.  http://www.pennstateind.com/store/pkcastkit.html  They do

NOT sell a circuitboard thinning kit ;-)

>

> On 5/11/2008 at 10:10 AM John Stevens wrote:

>

> >Where is it?

> >  ----- Original Message -----

> >  From: granny444555666<mailto:wakerider7000@...>

> >

> >  You can also buy a kit that, i would assume, give you the same

effect.

> >   From www.pennstateind.com<http://www.pennstateind.com/>   They

> >basically allow you to decorate a

> >  pen tube which ever way you please and then cote it in resin.

>

> --

> Regards,

> Rich

> ========================================

> Richard Kleinhenz

> penturners moderator

> Keep the group tidy! Delete excess text when quoting!

> http://beautifulhandmadepens.com

> ========================================

>








Reply | Forward
#94354	From: "Dennis Ewing, Sr" <dennis@...> 
Date: Sun May 11, 2008 9:15 pm 
Subject: Re: Re: Circuit Board Pen	 saprinter 
 Offline 
 Send Email

*AS the originator of the idea, I hope that any who attempt this use a

good respirator. There are several components in a PC board that can be

very bad for your health. I have refrained from writing up my process

until I could be sure of all safety concerns. Remember, many of the

boards contain lead and other metals that are not good for your lungs

and other parts of the body. I take several safety precautions when

making my circuit pens. I hope others do the same. A dust collector is

NOT enough when doing a project like this. Not wanting to discourage

you, just want you to be safe.



Dennis W. Ewing Sr*

http://www.onewoodturn.com







Bruce Egolf wrote:

> Thanks Rich

>

> I don't think your gonna buy a kit for a circuit board. It is quite a

> process. Not all that easy that is the only one I am working on some

> more and still tweeking the process. Maybe when I get it down I mite

> revel some tips & tricks. But that will be later on.

>

> Thanks

> Bruce from Florida

>

>




Reply | Forward
#94356	From: "Bruce Egolf" <brucee119@...> 
Date: Sun May 11, 2008 9:43 pm 
Subject: Re: Circuit Board Pen	 brucee119 
 Offline 
 Send Email

Dennis I am glad you check in. I wanted to give credit to whom I got

the idea. It was a letter opener I saw on I assume your site. But it

was a wile ago I did book mark it at the time but since the computer

crashed and I lost everything. And had no idea where or who was the

original owner. I hope you don't mind me posting photos of the pen.

But as you know it is no easy task making these. And yes any one

trying needs to be aware of health issues and take precautions. When

we venture into more different and abstract materials we need to be

careful.



Thanks

Bruce from Florida



--- In penturners@yahoogroups.com, "Dennis Ewing, Sr" <dennis@...>

wrote:

>

> AS the originator of the idea, I hope that any who attempt this use

a

> good respirator. There are several components in a PC board that

can be

> very bad for your health. I have refrained from writing up my

process

> until I could be sure of all safety concerns. Remember, many of the

> boards contain lead and other metals that are not good for your

lungs

> and other parts of the body. I take several safety precautions when

> making my circuit pens. I hope others do the same. A dust collector

is

> NOT enough when doing a project like this. Not wanting to

discourage

> you, just want you to be safe.

>

> Dennis W. Ewing Sr

> http://www.onewoodturn.com

>

>

>

> Bruce Egolf wrote:

> > Thanks Rich

> >

> > I don't think your gonna buy a kit for a circuit board. It is

quite a

> > process. Not all that easy that is the only one I am working on

some

> > more and still tweeking the process. Maybe when I get it down I

mite

> > revel some tips & tricks. But that will be later on.

> >

> > Thanks

> > Bruce from Florida

> >

> >

>








Reply | Forward
#94357	From: "Dennis Ewing, Sr" <dennis@...> 
Date: Sun May 11, 2008 11:14 pm 
Subject: Re: Re: Circuit Board Pen	 saprinter 
 Offline 
 Send Email

No problem. I'd just hate for someone to get lead poisoning from

something I came up with., Not to mention many of the boards are

fiberglass and inhaling that could be very bad. A real replaceable

canister respirator is mandatory to try this.



Dennis W. Ewing Sr

http://www.onewoodturn.com







Bruce Egolf wrote:

> Dennis I am glad you check in. I wanted to give credit to whom I got

> the idea. It was a letter opener I saw on I assume your site. But it

> was a wile ago I did book mark it at the time but since the computer

> crashed and I lost everything. And had no idea where or who was the

> original owner. I hope you don't mind me posting photos of the pen.

> But as you know it is no easy task making these. And yes any one

> trying needs to be aware of health issues and take precautions. When

> we venture into more different and abstract materials we need to be

> careful.

>

> Thanks

> Bruce from Florida

>


----------



## Russianwolf

http://onewoodturn.com/page/wdoz/New_Pens.html

He's even taken it into the Fountain Pens.

And leave my Tigers out of it.


----------



## pipeyeti

guess that settles any questions


----------



## bruce119

babyblues said:


> Do you really think it's right to claim that you are the "birth place of the printed circuit board computer blanks" considering it wasn't your idea?


 
As far as I know I was the first and only (till now) to offer "blanks" (not just make and sell the pen) to any other pen makers.

Boy that post by jasonbowman brings back some memories. There's been a lot of water over the bridge since then.

Bruce


----------



## GouletPens

*VOLCANO!!*

Alright, I decided I'm going to come up with a phrase that I can type whenever this type of post is starting to develop. It seems like the "he had the idea first" threads seem to always start fireworks in everyones' pants, so I'm going to start a new trend!! Whenever you see a thread like this that looks like a volcano about to erupt, the first person to type "VOLCANO" will get credit for warning everyone to take cover!! I'll be the first. THIS THREAD IS A VOLCANO!!!!


----------



## Texatdurango

The unfortunate thing after all this arguing back and forth is that those who think it's OK to profit from someone's idea by replicating an item then directly competing with the originator for sales will continue to do so with no qualms and those who think it's a sleazy practice will continue to think it's sleazy but nothing more.
 
A few months ago I heard some scuttle butt about establishing a code of ethics whereby members agreed to conduct their business affairs on the IAP forum in compliance with a set of standards as part of their privilege of IAP membership.  I wonder if this is still being kicked around.


----------



## L1Truckie

*Volcano*

Happy campers, poop in there pampers
When the mountain, becomes a fountain
Of white hot lava, molten magna
It's in there flowin', it's in there growin'
You don't believe me, that this scenery
Could be a cold blooded killer
It's gonna blow volcano!!!!

This will be my official reply for all volcano threads....:biggrin:
(credit goes to The Presidents of The United States of America)


----------



## gomeral

Russianwolf said:
			
		

> http://onewoodturn.com/page/wdoz/New_Pens.html



I want to know if anyone else is making yarn blanks.  That's pretty cool.



daniel


----------



## wolftat

Skye said:


> What's next. Will someone figure out how to make the *PRPrincess*' cat blanks


 Not trying to stir this fire anymore, but does Dawn actually make the cat blanks or is she a reseller of them? The reason I am asking is I had bought a large batch of them long before I ever even heard of Ed or Dawn or IAP.

 Now just for fun, I received a PM asking me how I felt about ripping off the inventor of the coffee bean blanks. He happened to catch me at a real bad time and I was pretty upset that he even bothered me, but my point is .....does anyone actually know who invented the coffee bean blanks? I have a pen that was made long before the IAP was formed and it was made with coffee beans. 

This is a trend that has been going on for a while and while we are almost all in support of Bruce, he seems to not want this to go the way it is going and maybe we should slow it down a bit. We are getting carried away with this again. 

Now lets just get back to the looting, rampaging, and pillaging like we should be.


----------



## PR_Princess

wolftat said:


> Not trying to stir this fire anymore, but does Dawn actually make the cat blanks or is she a reseller of them? The reason I am asking is I had bought a large batch of them long before I ever even heard of Ed or Dawn or IAP.


 
LOL, Neil only in my dreams am I that skilled!:tongue::biggrin: Actually I do neither. The cats are Ed4copies'. He imports those from Europe along with the pearls, alternatives and some other cool materials. 

Skye's heart was in the right place, though. As I do make my own set of unique - or should I say exotic - blanks. (Dichroic glass, MOP, paua, uncommon snakes etc.) He just got the description mixed up a bit as both Ed's blanks and mine are sold off of the same site.


----------



## jedgerton

Folks,

I'm not sure where to stand on this issue but I can tell you this kind of business practice is legal and it happens all the time.  I'm in the semiconductor industry and if anyone has heard of a company named AMD, they got their start making Intel compatible microprocessors by completing their own design that duplicated the functionality of the Intel device.  How is this any different.  Intel had something that was unique and in high demand.  AMD used their own resources to produce a device that could duplicate Intel's funtionality.  All legal and all above board.

The only way I know of to protect a new idea is to get the patent office to agree that the idea is truly new and different fundamentally for what has gone before.  Its expensive to accomplish and even more expensive to defend.

I'm not making these comments to suggest I agree with Berea's practice in this case but I'm only suggesting that there is nothing unusual or out of the ordinary with respect to common business practices.

John


----------



## Skye

jedgerton said:


> The only way I know of to protect a new idea is to get the patent office to agree that the idea is truly new and different fundamentally for what has gone before.  Its expensive to accomplish and even more expensive to defend.
> 
> John



I don't _think_ that's entirely correct. I think an  *design* patent would protect her. For instance, the idea of a bottle stopper is not new. It's not really a patentable idea. The design of a bottle stopper, however, can be protected. It's the visual properties of the idea that you can apply for a design patent.

My family owns a patent illustration biz and I've done a lot of patent drawings in my day. I'm pretty sure that's the way it goes, although we're divorced from the lawyer's end, so I'm not totally down with the law.


----------



## wolftat

PR_Princess said:


> LOL, Neil only in my dreams am I that skilled!:tongue::biggrin: Actually I do neither. The cats are Ed4copies'. He imports those from Europe along with the pearls, alternatives and some other cool materials.
> 
> Skye's heart was in the right place, though. As I do make my own set of unique - or should I say exotic - blanks. (Dichroic glass, MOP, paua, uncommon snakes etc.) He just got the description mixed up a bit as both Ed's blanks and mine are sold off of the same site.


 And you do make some beautiful blanks Dawn.


----------



## GouletPens

Skye said:


> I don't _think_ that's entirely correct. I think an *design* patent would protect her. For instance, the idea of a bottle stopper is not new. It's not really a patentable idea. The design of a bottle stopper, however, can be protected. It's the visual properties of the idea that you can apply for a design patent.
> 
> My family owns a patent illustration biz and I've done a lot of patent drawings in my day. I'm pretty sure that's the way it goes, although we're divorced from the lawyer's end, so I'm not totally down with the law.


 I think most of us tend to agree on a moral or ethical level, but in terms of legal protection, its almost irrelevant since none of us here have the money to take anyone to court over these types of issues. I have a friend of mine from college who got into corporate law and its an incredibly expensive endeavor! Unless you're making MILLIONS from your designs, there's no way you could ever justify the cost of taking someone to court over it, plus those corporate cases usually go on for a year or quite often several years. You have to have several factories pumping tens of millions of these pen blanks out before you could possibly afford a corporate law suit, especially against someone like Berea. 

Along the same lines, if I make a Cigar pen out of rosewood and post it here and someone likes it and makes it just like it, do I have the rights to it since I'm the first one that made it? Not unless I patent it, if I even could. Let's be real here, we all steal each others designs from SOMEWHERE a great majority of the time. We're just in a legally vulnerable industry here!!!:mad-tongue:


----------



## babyblues

Why do we post here?  Do we post here so that we can get all the credit for "our" idea or do we post here because we want to share information and hopefully raise everyone's talent level?    

Nothing unethical has been done here.  I've said it before and I'll say it again.  Bruce took the idea from someone else so it's IMPOSSIBLE for him to honestly claim to be the originator.  The same could be said for Curtis and his Worthless Wood, or Eugene and his Amalgamutts or Karl and his Earth Casts.  Each of them are fully within their rights to sell their product here because there's nothing wrong with taking an existing idea to the masses.  Many of us don't have the means to make them ourselves.  They do have the means and are willing to put the work into it.  I think that's great.  They all have names that are unique to their product, but they would be the first to tell you that they got the idea from someone else.  The concept of casting resin and wood together did not originate with any of them.  It's the same with the coffee bean blanks, it's the same with the puzzle kits and it's the same with Bruce and his circuit board blanks.  No one is stealing money from anyone else's pocket here.  If Bruce's product is superior in quality than it will speak for itself.  And it is yet to be determined if Bruce's business here will even suffer as a result of Berea's product.  If he's got all the orders he can handle, than I seriously doubt he has anything to worry about.  Porsche doesn't worry about competition from Toyota Corollas or Ford Escorts.

Speaking of cars, Henry Ford took an existing idea...the car...and mass produced it so that every family would have the chance to own one.  Aren't you kind of glad he did?  According to some of you, he was stealing that idea and what he did was unethical.  I don't think so.  If you have a problem with mass produced, than I fully expect that you should make your own car and your own gas.  

In fact, if some of you make good on your promise to boycott Berea, than you're going to have to boycott Arizona Silhouette too because Bill is a Berea reller.  You're willing to punish Bill for this?!  You're the ones taking business away from him, not Berea.

As I remember, Bruce also sold a batch of snakeskin blanks a while back.  I purchased some from him.  Apparently he ripped off Don Ward because Don posted a snakeskin tutorial here before anyone else did.  But then again, Don got the idea from Jay Pickens, so I guess Don is ripping off Jay.

Berea also sells bullet pen kits and it's been said that they're doing something wrong there too.  Well, if you read Don's bullet pen tutorial, he says that he saw a pen made from pistol brass, so he didn't come up with the idea either.  He also says that Bill Baumbeck had a bullet pen given to him by Dick Sing.  Don's tutorial is what he learned from Jay Pickens.  So, apparently everyone is getting ripped off here.

It's arrogant and, sorry to say, ignorant to assume that the first person we saw post it here on IAP has exclusive rights to the idea.  And it's ludicrous to propose that the person who first started selling it has exclusive rights to sell it, regardless of where they got the idea.


----------



## MU4EVER

*Pcb blanks*

Hi guys, 

I visited Bruce119 whilst I was in Florida on vacation from the UK and purchased some of his PCB blanks, although I haven't had a chance to turn them yet I agree wth SKYE as they are top dollar and would rather support the clever people we have amongst ourselves, 
I have sold 4 already, before they have been turned. 

Bruce 119 is a very talented genuine guy


----------



## GouletPens

babyblues said:


> Speaking of cars, Henry Ford took an existing idea...the car...and mass produced it so that every family would have the chance to own one. Aren't you kind of glad he did? According to some of you, he was stealing that idea and what he did was unethical. I don't think so. If you have a problem with mass produced, than I fully expect that you should make your own car and your own gas.


 For that matter, it's the very pen kits that we almost all use that are mass produced by Berea for our use. I'm darned glad Berea is in business and I hope they are for a long time so I can continue to use their kits!!!!


----------



## cozee

Funny thing, ya'll turn and sell pens right? How do ya think the first person to do this feels now??  And I am willing to bet ya use a brand of lathe other than the first one produced. And tools made by a mfg. other than the first one to do so.  And even the computer your using to post with. And the list goes on. Let he who isn't a hypocrite throw the first pen!!!


----------



## tbroye

Cozee:
Duck here comes the first pen.  Just kidding.  I have 2 blanks coming from Bruce119 and 2 Vista kits coming from Bill at AS.  He ships faster than Brea.  While I don't think Brea should have done that and who's to say it was their idea to copy the PCB blanks.  How many of us wanted to learn and copy what Eagle did.  I think with the Global Economy it is very easy to steal some ones idea and produce it as you own.  Look at all the counterfit T-Shirts, DVDs and all the other stuff that is copied and sold.  I will leave my pulpit now and go watch the KINGS loose again and probably be out in the shop by half time.


----------



## nava1uni

Now that I have taken the time to read every post I have something to say. I myself am finding the explosiveness of the posts like this to be counterproductive.  People rise to the surface like the fat in cream.  People jumping up and crying evil, unethical, saying angry volatile things and making statements that inflame and cause discord.  
   In any arena where people create, share their images and ideas there are bound to be people who will duplicate.  This is part of the reason that sites like IAP exist.  When I make a pen, even if it is of the same wood and kit, it is not the same pen.  If I cast a blank, like money for example, am I stealing from someone who also makes and sells the blanks?  I think that I am trying something new, hopefully creating something different, even though similar to something that already exists.  In the past few weeks I have observed this type of exchange and I find it disconcerting how easily some people become accusatory, want to boycott businesses and/or people.
  I think that this type of exchange will only cause people to hesitate to post and drive the creativity away rather then attract open sharing and conversation.  Maybe people should take a moment, breathe and think before they start shooting from the hip.


----------



## Randy_

Grizz said:


> Okay, Now I'll make a comment... *Berea owes you some kind of numeration for the idea if nothing else*. That really ticks me off and it takes a lot to do so! I'm writing a letter to Berea and I beseech others here to do like wise.


 
Awfully hard to understand that thinking when Bruce, himself, acknowledged that the original idea was not his!!!

Check out post # 23 in this thread that George posted.


----------



## Rudy Vey

nava1uni said:


> Now that I have taken the time to read every post I have something to say. I myself am finding the explosiveness of the posts like this to be counterproductive.  People rise to the surface like the fat in cream.  People jumping up and crying evil, unethical, saying angry volatile things and making statements that inflame and cause discord.
> In any arena where people create, share their images and ideas there are bound to be people who will duplicate.  This is part of the reason that sites like IAP exist.  When I make a pen, even if it is of the same wood and kit, it is not the same pen.  If I cast a blank, like money for example, am I stealing from someone who also makes and sells the blanks?  I think that I am trying something new, hopefully creating something different, even though similar to something that already exists.  In the past few weeks I have observed this type of exchange and I find it disconcerting how easily some people become accusatory, want to boycott businesses and/or people.
> I think that this type of exchange will only cause people to hesitate to post and drive the creativity away rather then attract open sharing and conversation.  Maybe people should take a moment, breathe and think before they start shooting from the hip.


Well said Cindy!


----------



## dalemcginnis

What I'm seeing in this thread is some people seem to think the big guy(Berea) is going to put the little guy (Bruce) out of business.  Why?  Because they can sell it cheaper?  Well jeez, I guess no one here should be selling any pens.  Why?  Because anybody can go to Wal-Mart and buy 10 pens for a buck! Yet there seems to be a lot of people here who sell a lot of pens for a lot more than a buck.


----------



## alphageek

dalemcginnis said:


> What I'm seeing in this thread is some people seem to think the big guy(Berea) is going to put the little guy (Bruce) out of business. Why? Because they can sell it cheaper? Well jeez, I guess no one here should be selling any pens. Why? Because anybody can go to Wal-Mart and buy 10 pens for a buck! Yet there seems to be a lot of people here who sell a lot of pens for a lot more than a buck.


 
WELL SAID!  Even more clear than my analogy of gold and ti-gold earlier in the thread.


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## KenV

I think Dennis Ewing in Texas was making the circuit board blanks before they surfaced here in IAP -- so the issue of who invented/adapted what may not be as real an issue as some would like to make of it.  Dennis makes them for his own use, and has, for liability/health reasons been reluctant to share the process he uses to get the circuit boards shaped for casting.   

I think my bushings for the Sierra Vista is a 70A vs the normal 20A.   The 50A is listed with my favorite enabler (Bill in AZ) as being used for the ElToro and ElPresidente pens.  Maybe we are getting a third sierra variation in barrel sizes -


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## babyblues

dalemcginnis said:


> What I'm seeing in this thread is some people seem to think the big guy(Berea) is going to put the little guy (Bruce) out of business.  Why?  Because they can sell it cheaper?  Well jeez, I guess no one here should be selling any pens.  Why?  Because anybody can go to Wal-Mart and buy 10 pens for a buck! Yet there seems to be a lot of people here who sell a lot of pens for a lot more than a buck.



Very good point.

Funny you should say that.  I had a guy say, "Why should I buy that pen for $50 when I can go get a dozen for a dollar at Wal-Mart?"  I told him that if he couldn't appreciate the difference maybe he SHOULD go buy them from Wal-Mart.  :biggrin:


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## Mudder

nava1uni said:


> Now that I have taken the time to read every post I have something to say. I myself am finding the explosiveness of the posts like this to be counterproductive.  People rise to the surface like the fat in cream.  People jumping up and crying evil, unethical, saying angry volatile things and making statements that inflame and cause discord.
> In any arena where people create, share their images and ideas there are bound to be people who will duplicate.  This is part of the reason that sites like IAP exist.  When I make a pen, even if it is of the same wood and kit, it is not the same pen.  If I cast a blank, like money for example, am I stealing from someone who also makes and sells the blanks?  I think that I am trying something new, hopefully creating something different, even though similar to something that already exists.  In the past few weeks I have observed this type of exchange and I find it disconcerting how easily some people become accusatory, want to boycott businesses and/or people.
> I think that this type of exchange will only cause people to hesitate to post and drive the creativity away rather then attract open sharing and conversation.  Maybe people should take a moment, breathe and think before they start shooting from the hip.





Cindy,


Let's consider the flip side of the coin for the moment. Could it also be possible that the IAP is going to become "one stop shopping" for someone looking to make a quick buck from the idea's of another?

I'm torn on this issue, on one hand I believe that competition breeds creativity and on the other hand I would have to think twice before showing something that I've worked hard to perfect be taken by a big company for their profit.


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## GoodTurns

babyblues said:


> Very good point.
> 
> Funny you should say that.  I had a guy say, "Why should I buy that pen for $50 when I can go get a dozen for a dollar at Wal-Mart?"  I told him that if he couldn't appreciate the difference maybe he SHOULD go buy them from Wal-Mart.  :biggrin:



I keep a box of Staples pens I got for FREE with one of their coupons under my cash register in my booth...when someone brings up the $0.25 pens, I give them one and thank them for stopping by.  If they don't appreciate a real pen, let 'em move on!


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## Mudder

Texatdurango said:


> The simple fact is that we just don't know any of the facts but hey, don't let the lack of any factual data get in the way of a good lynching!



Reminds me of a quote that I read on another site that I frequent....

"Don't let the truth get in the way of a good story"


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## Skye

Mudder said:


> Let's consider the flip side of the coin for the moment. Could it also be possible that the IAP is going to become "one stop shopping" for someone looking to make a quick buck from the idea's of another?
> 
> I'm torn on this issue, on one hand I believe that competition breeds creativity and on the other hand I would have to think twice before showing something that I've worked hard to perfect be taken by a big company for their profit.



I think you hit the nail on the head. Between the board pens and the bullet pens, I'm going to assume if something really catches on here, it won't be long till Berea or another large company starts producing them.

Some people think that's fine and _everything_ is free game, I don't think that way.


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## workinforwood

Problem with the circuit board pen is that there is no way to prove who the real inventor is.  If you truly made the first one, documented it and patented the idea, then you'd have a case.  It still might not be the easiest thing to fight in court with your documentation, but not impossible.  If you really have a case, you will most likely be offered an out of court settlement and assuming they offer a reasonable amount, you'll be in pretty good shape.  This pen is so labour intensive for a one man shop, that if you had a case and were offered a settlement of even just $10,000, you're sure to be smiling!  None of this is the case for Bruce, unfortunately because he didn't invent it, nor did he patent it.  But it is a good lesson to try and cover your loose ends should you come up with a grand idea.
  and yes...I know some countries like china like to ignore patents, but even still you can fight to keep those knock-offs from being sold by legitimate American companies.  That's why illegal cd's exist in a back alley, but you won't find them at Best Buy.  I dont think any of us will be cruising the back alley's looking for illegal pen kits!


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## babyblues

Mudder said:


> Cindy,
> 
> 
> Let's consider the flip side of the coin for the moment. Could it also be possible that the IAP is going to become "one stop shopping" for someone looking to make a quick buck from the idea's of another?
> 
> I'm torn on this issue, on one hand I believe that competition breeds creativity and on the other hand I would have to think twice before showing something that I've worked hard to perfect be taken by a big company for their profit.



It just seems that there is an underlying assumption of malicious intent on the part of "big companies", but I don't think that's the case.

Consider a third side of the coin, if you will.  If an idea catches on and demand develops, is it fair for one person to say, "Nope, I'm the only one allowed to profit from this.  The rest of you go pound sand."  I would be willing to bet that there is more than enough demand to go around.  Whenever someone has posted something like the cactus blanks, or resin/wood blanks, or snakeskin blanks etc...they always sell out.

I seriously doubt that anyone here has either the time or the resources to outstrip demand for some of those things.  So, where's the rub?  The rub, as far as I can see, is that one might feel exploited if they haven't received proper credit and/or compensation for coming up with the idea first.  So, what's wrong with wanting that, you might ask.  Nothing wrong, persay, it just begs the question of what you're about.  The truly creative people who come up with this stuff don't spend time on websites like this squabbling over whose idea it was first, because they do what they do because they love it, not because there's profit in it.


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## Mudder

babyblues said:


> It just seems that there is an underlying assumption of malicious intent on the part of "big companies", but I don't think that's the case.
> 
> Consider a third side of the coin, if you will.  If an idea catches on and demand develops, is it fair for one person to say, "Nope, I'm the only one allowed to profit from this.  The rest of you go pound sand."  I would be willing to bet that there is more than enough demand to go around.  Whenever someone has posted something like the cactus blanks, or resin/wood blanks, or snakeskin blanks etc...they always sell out.
> 
> I seriously doubt that anyone here has either the time or the resources to outstrip demand for some of those things.  So, where's the rub?  The rub, as far as I can see, is that one might feel exploited if they haven't received proper credit and/or compensation for coming up with the idea first.  So, what's wrong with wanting that, you might ask.  Nothing wrong, persay, it just begs the question of what you're about.  The truly creative people who come up with this stuff don't spend time on websites like this squabbling over whose idea it was first, because they do what they do because they love it, not because there's profit in it.




I guess that on this point we'll have to agree to disagree. I've seen this same thing happen with corncob blanks, snakeskin and cartridges before this last one with the circuit board blanks. seems to be a lot more than just coincidence.


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## Texatdurango

Mudder said:


> ....Let's consider the flip side of the coin for the moment. Could it also be possible that the IAP is going to become "one stop shopping" for someone looking to make a quick buck from the idea's of another?
> 
> I'm torn on this issue, on one hand I believe that competition breeds creativity and on the other hand I would have to think twice before showing something that I've worked hard to perfect be taken by a big company for their profit.


 
So, it looks like the solution if you have something very unique and marketable is to not even mention it on the forum.  Instead, go on about your business, make as many unique pens as you want, sell them and no one will be the wiser for quite a while.  

If you think about it, most of the people having a problem with their ideas being lifted are themselves using the forum to showcase their goods with the intent to drum up interest to make sales.  When they have a good idea, fellow honest members aren't the only ones who notice!


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## cozee




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## bruce119

I just wanted to step in and say a few things. After reading a lot of this it seams most of the conservancy is big business using the site to take our ideas. There were a lot of good points made on booth sides.

I just want to clear a few things up about me personally. Yes this was not my original idea but I did figure out on my own how to do it and spent a lot of time coming up with a method. I do it because I enjoy it I was the first as far as I know to offer blanks for sale for other pen makers. It is a very time consuming process that uses a lot of consumable's. I make them the old fashion way. I don't have the money or the desire to mass produce I did have some ideas that would probably work and would require knowing someone in the circuit board manufacturing industry. But that would take a lot of dollars I just don't have that. I knew some one would come along that had the funding and the connections to mass produce.

I am not mad at Berea or hold hard feelings against them. I am still waiting on my kit I hope they don't hold me responsible for some of the negative things said against Berea that was not me talking.

I will call Jim at Berea tomorrow and see if my kit was sent and maybe get a few more. I will look them over and give a review.

I understand about the new ideas and others not posting in fear that they will be produced in mass. But I am fine and will continue doing what I have been doing. The most I could possibly make if all I did was about 25 blanks a week. So I will continue to make and offer them as I make them. 

I have a mailing list that I send out a notice to all on it when I am going to post. I can't possibly keep up with orders.

Thanks to all who supported me.
Bruce


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## rlharding

What a volcano over nothing. 

Does anyone know who produced the first kit in every series? What are we doing when we have group buys? we are trying to get the cheapest product from whomever offers us the best deal. We are not doing research to find out who was the inventor of a particular kit and going to that source. 

It seems to me that some members of IAP act as if this is the only penturning forum in the world and any and all innovation is going to come just from this site. Go look at the library articles and see how many different people have given their views on how to do the same thing. Does this mean we have to do something the way the first person who posted does it? No. This isn't about ethics or moral values. This is capitalisim and democracy at work. The best product at the best price wins. The buyer can purchase from whomever they wish.


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## jtrusselle

Bruce119 - Aside from the debate of who said what when, I must say that I am inspired by an earlier post that contained the email thread from your creation.  In it you wrote, "That gave me the inspiration it took weeks of trial and failures. But I got it working it is very difficult. But it was worth it."  Sweat, hard work, dedication and persistance... You got it all buddy.  A penmaker or turner through and through... Thanks!


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## tbroye

Today a I received 2 packages by Priority Mail.  One contained 2 PCB Blanks from Bruce119 and the other contained 2 Vista Kits and 2 sets of Vista bushings and extra Vista tubes.  Now 3 people made money on this.
Bruce for his blanks, which are very nice.  Bill at AS for selling me the Kits and Brea for selling Bill the Kits.  Will I buy the PCB Kits from Brea or AS probably not would rather buy them from some one who goes through all the trouble to do it himself.  Will still buy the kits from AS and Brea though.  They give good service.


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## Fargo

just a thought but does anyone who has sold a "PCB" pen make the buyer aware that it wasn't your idea and you just assembled it ? or do you say i bought this kit from so n so and the blank from bruce119 ?


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## Skye

Fargo said:


> just a thought but does anyone who has sold a "PCB" pen make the buyer aware that it wasn't your idea and you just assembled it ? or do you say i bought this kit from so n so and the blank from bruce119 ?


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## wolftat

Fargo said:


> just a thought but does anyone who has sold a "PCB" pen make the buyer aware that it wasn't your idea and you just assembled it ? or do you say i bought this kit from so n so and the blank from bruce119 ?


 Of course, and I also make it clear that I didn't create the heavens and earth. Just in case there is ever any confusion.


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## shull

This thread has taken on a life of it's own.  Just a question who insist on beating this dead horse.  Has anyone considered how many new and learning turners have been totally put off from ever showing their works?  First the lambasting of Jared last summer and now this thread.  I have learned many things from the many craftsmen and craftswomen out there who have unselfishly shared their techniques and I thank them from the bottom of my heart.  I hope I will do their lessons justice in the future.  However, with the trend that seems to be developing on this site I doubt that I will be posting my work here anytime soon.  Lets end this now and get on to more productive ventures.  For the record Bruce119, you do great work.


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## Willee

Bullet pens ... first one I seen was shown to me by a fella shopping at Woodcraft.
Year was 2001 ...  almost 9 years ago ... who's idea was that anyhow?

Curcuit board pens ... If Bruce did not have the original idea.
He did the same thing Berea did ... took a concept and learned how to make it work ... laid claim to it and started selling them. 
The pen blanks Berea sells are the same as the ones WoodCraft is selling.
Berea must be having them made as the boards look the same.
(least all the blue ones I bought are)

Did you know Berea was the inventor, designer, and original importer of the Serria Pen.
Boy ... did that style get copied by every other pen kit supplier.
And the El Grande ... another Berea original.
Two of the first high quality pen kits offered to us were Berea originals.
Do any of you know how much time and money Berea spent getting those two kits made and imported.   Any idea at all?

Casting stuff in casting resin ... who's original idea was that?
Another idea copied like crazy ... someone get a rope!
Watch parts ... feathers ... snake skins ... there is no end to it.
Someone owes someone a lot of money for that casting process idea that a lot of pen makers are stealing!

*** Edit ***  ... Sorry ... I did not notice that this was an old thread untill after I replied to it.
It came up on a search.


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## its_virgil

Woodcraft resells Berea kits. They just change the name. The baron is called the navigator and the sierra is called the wallstreet II and the sierra vista is called the wallstreet III.
Do a good turn daily!
Don



Willee said:


> The (circuit board)pen blanks Berea sells are the same as the ones WoodCraft is selling.
> Berea must be having them made as the boards look the same.
> (least all the blue ones I bought are)


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## bkersten

bruce119 said:


> Skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Screw Berea!* There's a ton of other things they could have taken up without ripping off someone's creation.
> 
> No Bruce, no boards! N Bruce, no boards!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you Skye I really appreciate the support. I put my heart and sole into these things. They are made the old fashion way. With blood sweat & tears. Not with big bucks and mass production. Mine are truly one of a kind.
> 
> Bruce
Click to expand...

 
Since I got some from him 2 yr ago, they are the best looking, and worthy of the quote highlight.


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## jeff

Willee said:


> Bullet pens ... first one I seen was shown to me by a fella shopping at Woodcraft.
> Year was 2001 ...  almost 9 years ago ... who's idea was that anyhow?
> 
> Curcuit board pens ... If Bruce did not have the original idea.
> He did the same thing Berea did ... took a concept and learned how to make it work ... laid claim to it and started selling them.
> The pen blanks Berea sells are the same as the ones WoodCraft is selling.
> Berea must be having them made as the boards look the same.
> (least all the blue ones I bought are)
> 
> Did you know Berea was the inventor, designer, and original importer of the Serria Pen.
> Boy ... did that style get copied by every other pen kit supplier.
> And the El Grande ... another Berea original.
> Two of the first high quality pen kits offered to us were Berea originals.
> Do any of you know how much time and money Berea spent getting those two kits made and imported.   Any idea at all?
> 
> Casting stuff in casting resin ... who's original idea was that?
> Another idea copied like crazy ... someone get a rope!
> Watch parts ... feathers ... snake skins ... there is no end to it.
> Someone owes someone a lot of money for that casting process idea that a lot of pen makers are stealing!



Thread dredging is generally considered poor forum etiquette. What is your point in commenting on a thread that's almost two years old?


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## Willee

jeff said:


> Thread dredging is generally considered poor forum etiquette. What is your point in commenting on a thread that's almost two years old?



Sorry, somehow this thread came up on a search and I really did not notice how long it had been since the last post.

Thinking that it was a current thread I stated my points in the post.
There was no point intended in dredging up an old topic but I did add some information some may not have been aware of.
Us old farts have been turning pens long enough (even before this forum was around) to know who did what and when.

I will edit the post to make it clear I mistook it for a recent post.


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## Wood Butcher

12 pages and counting!  Shouldn't this all be under the "carp we want to gripe about".  This sounds like a hen house.


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## Smitty37

*First Idea*

Well it seems to me that the FIRST involved is not the first to cast circuit board in a resin pen blank, or the first to cast a circuit board in resin, but the first to cast anything in resin.

The idea does not change if I decide to cast fiddler crab claws or bald eagle feathers in resin....that is not a new idea...that is just making a slight modification to someone elses idea.  

*In this case Bruce acknowledged that it was not his idea to cast circuit boards in resin*....*it was an idea that he borrowed from someone else and applied it to his hobby and found it to be marketable.  I seriously doubt that his market will dry up.*


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## woodbutcher52

I've turned 10 of the Circuit Board pens from Berea, (5 gold, 4 chrome, in the green, and 1 black circuit board in chrome) and they all turned out GREAT!


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## Willee

Wood Butcher said:


> 12 pages and counting!  Shouldn't this all be under the "carp we want to gripe about".  This sounds like a hen house.



Or maybe    "Gripes we want to Carp about"


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## bruce119

jeff said:


> Thread dredging is generally considered poor forum etiquette. What is your point in commenting on a thread that's almost two years old?


 
Guys PLEASE let this thread just die ​ 
*NO MORE POSTING*​ 
*PLEASE*​ 
.


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