# Burl wood?



## ed4copies (Jun 10, 2012)

I got an email today from a person who complained that his burl was cracked.

To ME, burl wood has "character" when it has a very irregular grain pattern, possibly "eyes" and, inherently there are cracks.

What do you all think?  Do you expect burls to have flaws?  Does it matter what species the burl wood is?

Just looking for input--the email really made me wonder if I am completely out of touch with "wood guys" today.

Thanks for any input!!!  
ed


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## redbulldog (Jun 10, 2012)

I have bought over the years a fair amount of burl wood, from pen blanks to blocks for making bowls and/or vases.
I have found that the burl with More character will have what some people call cracks or defects.  A crack in a pen blank can be filled with powdered stone for a different look, My take on the burls, blocks down to pen blank size!!!


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## Drstrangefart (Jun 10, 2012)

I usually kind of expect to find small cracks and voids in anything with a non-linear grain. Burl is no exception.


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## SteveG (Jun 10, 2012)

Some who sell burl pen blanks will include in the description "free of checks, cracks, etc." I would expect to see just that, while at the same time realizing that a crack might reveal itself as the blank is turned. No problem there.  If there is no specific description, I would expect to sometimes find small defects (cracks, splits) as part of the nature of burls. Often the most exciting burls will be accompanied with some small defects. I will take my cracks along with my excitement!!


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## nativewooder (Jun 10, 2012)

IMHO. if there are no cracks or other defects, it's probably not a burl.  Of course, on Ebay there have been many selling pieces of wood that they call "burl wood" but the burl may have been 10 feet away.  I questioned one guy about it and he said I shouldn't be so picky!


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## KenV (Jun 10, 2012)

Ed, I see minor bark inclusions, and tiny cracks as a part of the wood absent any other descriptor.  But then I am not a product liability attorney.

Many of these turn away, and sometimes there are separations hiding in the wood.  While not a burl, Olive wood has surprised me quite often.   The point where a crack moves from minor to significant is a murky thing to define.  Easy fills that are incidental to the finishing with CA is one way to describe the nature of "minor".


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## BRobbins629 (Jun 10, 2012)

Comes with the territory, but in 99% of the cases you can fill them with saw dust and CA and never be able to find them.  Can't remember not seeing them in most burl.


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## ed4copies (Jun 10, 2012)

As a "gesture of goodwill" I am replacing the blank, but my real problem was looking through the bin and trying to guess what the inside of a 7/8" "stick" is going to look like.  The "safest" bet had sapwood----will it separate during making the pen?  Or, worse, will it separate a month down the road if the heat and humidity affect it??


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## seamus7227 (Jun 10, 2012)

ed4copies said:


> As a "gesture of goodwill" I am replacing the blank, but my real problem was looking through the bin and trying to guess what the inside of a 7/8" "stick" is going to look like.  The "safest" bet had sapwood----will it separate during making the pen?  Or, worse, will it separate a month down the road if the heat and humidity affect it??



IMHO, if i buy a blank from you or anyone selling them, i cant expect them to stay perfect or free from defect especially if the geographic location of the blank before purchase was different from mine. Not to mention what it was exposed to during the shipment of it. So with that said, and the obvious movement of wood, I personally feel like whoever it was that bought that blank from you and complained is either a real PITA and/or very inexperienced with their knowledge of wood. I mean after all, it is mother nature, go ahead and let me know when you can control that......just sayin'


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## ed4copies (Jun 10, 2012)

seamus7227 said:


> ed4copies said:
> 
> 
> > As a "gesture of goodwill" I am replacing the blank, but my real problem was looking through the bin and trying to guess what the inside of a 7/8" "stick" is going to look like.  The "safest" bet had sapwood----will it separate during making the pen?  Or, worse, will it separate a month down the road if the heat and humidity affect it??
> ...



Thanks Seamus---excellent observations, I think!!!  This guy does live in another country---a place he called "Texas":biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:


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## PenMan1 (Jun 10, 2012)

I LOVE pretty burl wood! And Ed, the burls that I have bought from you have made some spectacular pens.

To me, "burl" means rotting on nearly decayed wood. The is "no magic bullet" for making burl stay together. In fact, it seems to me, the more spectacular the wood, the more difficult it is to manage.

When I get a "new" burl, the first thing I do is wrap it, as neatly as possible, in surgical gauze, place it on waxed paper, and coat it with thin CA, until the bandage will no longer accept CA.

When I drill or turn burl, I stop frequently to add additional CA. Occasionally, I still blow them up. IMHO, the problem is mine, not the wood's.


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## ed4copies (Jun 10, 2012)

PenMan1 said:


> I LOVE pretty burl wood! And Ed, the burls that I have bought from you have made some spectacular pens.
> 
> To me, "burl" means rotting on nearly decayed wood. The is "no magic bullet" for making burl stay together. In fact, it seems to me, the more spectacular the wood, the more difficult it is to manage.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the credit, Andy!!!   

But, Dawn actually handles all the wood!!!  I am asked to cut up a block, from time to time, but she purchases and sells all the wood blanks----I work in the "imported 'plastics' department"!!

If someone complains, I am asked to handle that, also.  Since I actually have turned a number of wood pens, I can "speak the language" (to some people--at times like this one, I am not so sure)

Just want to give credit, where credit is due---Dawn finds the pretty wood!!:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:


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## PenMan1 (Jun 10, 2012)

I can't even POST what I was thinking for laughing so hard!

In all seriousness, DAWN's Austrailian burl selections, have made many of my customers VERY HAPPY.  If they hadn't been a little tedious to prepare, and I didn't have to be painstakingly careful not to blow them up, I might have wondered if Dawn was giving you all the good wood.


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## Don Wade (Jun 10, 2012)

My wife nd i often chuckle about a gallery in HS, Ark that refused to display 2 of my pieces even though they had sold many and made money on them because they were cracked and therefore defective.  I picked them up and sold them for a premium price later.  both were burls.  Some people????


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## EricJS (Jun 10, 2012)

Ed,

Any experienced woodworker will know that cracks, voids, & other imperfections are present in all burls. Period. Woodturners will either call the imperfections "character" or fill them with other materials and call that "character."

With that said, there will always be people who look for "perfect" burls. As bad as I hate to say it, you may need to post a comment on the ads stating that "burls are full of character which includes cracks, voids, etc. etc. etc."

Or you could x-ray every blank...:biggrin: By the way, yours are some of the nicest burls I've ever purchased.


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## DestinTurnings (Jun 10, 2012)

seamus7227 said:


> IMHO, if i buy a blank from you or anyone selling them, i cant expect them to stay perfect or free from defect especially if the geographic location of the blank before purchase was different from mine. Not to mention what it was exposed to during the shipment of it. So with that said, and the obvious movement of wood, I personally feel like whoever it was that bought that blank from you and complained is either a real PITA and/or very inexperienced with their knowledge of wood. I mean after all, it is mother nature, go ahead and let me know when you can control that......just sayin'


 
This is exactly why I try to buy my blanks in advance and them let them sit before turning. Going from someplace like Arizona with 10% humdity to here in Florida with 90% and turning the day you receive the blanks is asking for issues. I have found blanks that looked great coming out of the box to be checked from one end to the other when I went to actually use it.


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## Andrew_K99 (Jun 10, 2012)

PenMan1 said:


> ...To me, "burl" means rotting on nearly decayed wood....


Not to question your expectations but burl is not rotten or decaying wood  It's a deformation in the tree that causes the grain to go wild.  Reference here.

As for the question at hand, it's wood, it's burl, expect surprises which include cracks or voids.

AK


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## Sawdust46 (Jun 10, 2012)

As many have already said, you expect to see imperfections in burl and they can generally be fixed by most turners.  Actually the imperfections are what gives the burl its character.  My experience with purchasing from you has always been positive.  In this case you are providing the customer service most of us have experienced.  Can you subtlely direct the buyer to this thread?


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## bitshird (Jun 10, 2012)

I for one don't want any PERFECT Burl blanks.


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## Rick P (Jun 10, 2012)

The term "perfect burl" is an oximoron, burl wood is by definition imperfect! I don't think most folks realize how much gets rejected when your cutting blanks. Its enough to heat my families home for the winter! When you find these perfect burls let me know, it sure would be nice to "just hack up some peices and throw them in a box" instead of spending hours figuring out the best way to get the most out of the beautiful woods we all love!

Anybody wanna point out the plain, undergrade and too far gone areas in this 8 foot section? How about the pen blank sized cracks?


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## PenMan1 (Jun 10, 2012)

Andrew_K99 said:


> PenMan1 said:
> 
> 
> > ...To me, "burl" means rotting on nearly decayed wood....
> ...



By technical definition, you are right.


 But, the burls that I really, really like and choose to work are  usually root burls. My experience is that my prettiest blanks come from those underground or root burls, right at the "edge" of where Mother Nature has already claimed her blanks through rot and decay, and just before the area that the insects have claimed as their habitat.

I guess, technically, any knot, buldge or other physical deformity is a burl. Most of the ones I like, have to be "dug up" rather than sawn down. That is why I prefaced my remark with "to me".

Sorry for any confusion.


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## Rick P (Jun 10, 2012)

Spot on that Andy! Most of the reclaimed wood I use is stumps no one else was willing to drag off! Even very tight, straight grained trees like Black spruce will have some bizarre grain under ground!

If your not cutting up the root ball your waisting the best figure wood in the tree!


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## NC Wood Art (Jun 10, 2012)

I have only ever been upset with wood with Crack that was listed as crack & check free BUT this bowl blank "Almond" had a split 2" deep into the blank & was the full 6" off the blank. This crack was also about a 1/4" wide at outside edge the whole length. I would not have purchased the wood with the known issue but with check & crack free what i got was way different. I did manage to use them for pen blanks.

Bill


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## Akula (Jun 10, 2012)

PenMan1 said:


> Andrew_K99 said:
> 
> 
> > PenMan1 said:
> ...



I got some black walnut root burls sitting just waiting for the day to shine.  It does stink LOL  Beautiful stuff when done.

Burls are going to have some "issues" unless they are large and it's possible to get some blanks cut for pens.  Sometimes when you have a piece of that size...tough to cut up for pens (for me anyways)


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## mrburls (Jun 10, 2012)

Hi Ed, Now you know I like my burls (and have gotten beautiful stuff from Dawn) and mainly use only burls when turning a wood pen. I'd say about 90% of the burled pieces do have some sort of defect weather it be a check, void or inclussion from bark. 
Occasionally I get a piece like Amboyna burl or Desert Iron Wood burl and a few others that do not have any defects and I've sold a few of those here on IAP. Possibly this person was so lucky to get a piece of burl like this in the past from his supplier but can't expect that every time from everyone.

*IT'S A BURL *
** 
Keith "mrburls"


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## 76winger (Jun 10, 2012)

Ed, As has been said several times now, I don't expect perfection with burls either. By their very nature, they're a culmination of imperfect wood grains that got all twisted and mixed up in nature instead of growing strait. And along the way of forming gaps and bark inclusions are "par for the course" with them as well. 

And of course the wood movement is normal also. we hope it doesn't develop into cracks and gaps, but it can at times. Look at turned bowls for a good example of wood movement over time. Rounds bowls made out of fairly straight grain become oval and those made from burls can end up wrinkled, wavy and all sorts of shapes and textures over time. 

If your buy was expecting perfectly solid material, he/she would be better off considering the stabilized burls, but even then there's no guarantee. Without knowing more, I'd have assume this is someone who is just not yet familiar with wood's properties yet and I would try to educate them as well as accommodate them as best I could. And it sounds like that's exactly what you did.


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## ed4copies (Jun 10, 2012)

Sawdust46 said:


> As many have already said, you expect to see imperfections in burl and they can generally be fixed by most turners.  Actually the imperfections are what gives the burl its character.  My experience with purchasing from you has always been positive.  In this case you are providing the customer service most of us have experienced.  Can you subtlely direct the buyer to this thread?



Honestly, Bill, I don't need him to read this.  

He will get another blank, which will cost me the postage and a $4 pen blank--absolutely NO BIG DEAL!!

My concern was truly to be certain MY expectations were realistic.

His comment was he will never do business with us again!!  So, I won't have to strive to PLEASE him, in the future.  Good for both of us.

As I said in my return email--"Life is too short to get upset over a $4 pen blank!!!"

Thanks to all for confirming that we are satisfying reasonable expectations.:biggrin::biggrin:


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## Sylvanite (Jun 10, 2012)

ed4copies said:


> His comment was he will never do business with us again!!  So, I won't have to strive to PLEASE him, in the future.  Good for both of us.


There *are* some customers you're better off without.  DAMHIKT.

Regards,
Eric


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## StephenM (Jun 10, 2012)

Did you ask him for a picture of it?  Is it possible it developed a giant check during shipping?  

It would be nice to know what he considers a crack and what he's actually looking at.


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## D.Oliver (Jun 10, 2012)

ed4copies said:


> His comment was he will never do business with us again!!


 

Oh well....more blanks for the rest of us!:biggrin:


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## Smitty37 (Jun 10, 2012)

You're doing what I'd do...send him a new one and get on with life.  

Having worked only a few burl blanks in my life I can safely say that none that I worked was free of cracks, checks or voids. 

I've ruined a couple learning a little about turning them and I have seen enough info on here that I might be able to get along without ruining too many more.


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## LandfillLumber (Jun 10, 2012)

I would not expect a check in the blanks,but small cracks(eyes opening up)are part of burl.I think it does matter the type of burl,I would be unhappy if i was sold ny Redwood burl with any sort of crck/check.It dries easy without deffects,but other burls will never dry without deffects.That is my two cents,Victor


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## Dustygoose (Jun 10, 2012)

Hmmm.  CA,  Coffee grounds, Done.  I keep Monty in business with the thin CA...lol


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## Parson (Jun 11, 2012)

ed4copies said:


> This guy does live in another country---a place he called "Texas":biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:



Considering Wisconsin is God's country, Texas would then be Hell.

And it certainly is hot enough to be called that without much argument!

This guy is officially giving Hell a bad name, BTW. Burls = inclusions. Period.


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## ed4copies (Jun 11, 2012)

Recently, there has been a whole lot of "wrath" in God's country---I hope we can settle down to a few months of sanity before the next "regularly-scheduled" elections in November!!!


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## PenMan1 (Jun 11, 2012)

ed4copies said:


> Recently, there has been a whole lot of "wrath" in God's country---I hope we can settle down to a few months of sanity before the next "regularly-scheduled" elections in November!!!



Ed: 
If I have my counting down right, I clock Wisconsin as having to vote ONLY ONCE MORE (excluding run-offs, etc.) THIS YEAR.

Down here, we've taken to only voting every couple of years. That way we can throw away the money we saved from fewer elections  to advance Atlanta's traffics nightmares from SECOND WORST in the WORLD , to WORST IN THE WORLD.

Tongue firmly in cheek.


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## ed4copies (Jun 11, 2012)

Well Andy, the "issue" started off as a budget problem---the state has been plugging the budget by usurping "earmarked funds" for several years.  Last one, the Supreme Court said, "Nope, gotta pay it back!!"  (Which, of course puts the state FARTHER in the hole.)

But, some people don't like the way the new guy solved the problem, so NOW those who screamed they were just eeeking by, found tens of millions of dollars to throw at ads to change back to the old---"stealing" (as defined by the Supreme Court).

End analysis:  Vote is about the same as it was two years ago---same guy wins, except this exercise cost probably $100 million. (spent by all parties as well as the cost of the two elections).   Just seems it would have been easier to find that $100 million to balance the budget in the first place.

Too simple!!


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## edicehouse (Jun 11, 2012)

I had a request for a burl on a cigar pen.  Made it and didn't want to sell it to the guy.  Well he had it for a couple weeks and returned it, cuz it cracked; both upper and lower.  I explained that is a chance with burl.  I was happy to have that return.  (Wait no picks so I guess it didn't happen)  LOL


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## Smitty37 (Jun 11, 2012)

ed4copies said:


> Well Andy, the "issue" started off as a budget problem---the state has been plugging the budget by usurping "earmarked funds" for several years. Last one, the Supreme Court said, "Nope, gotta pay it back!!" (Which, of course puts the state FARTHER in the hole.)
> 
> But, some people don't like the way the new guy solved the problem, so NOW those who screamed they were just eeeking by, found tens of millions of dollars to throw at ads to change back to the old---"stealing" (as defined by the Supreme Court).
> 
> ...


 Who ever said ''balancing the budget" was a priority.   Politicians have more ways to slide around "living within their means" then Carter has of the proverbial "Little Liver Pills" [I presume that you and a few others here remember Carter's Little Liver Pills].


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## Smitty37 (Jun 11, 2012)

If I am not mistaken, that is the first recall election in hisory where the guy was recalled for doing exactly what he said he would do in the original election.  Usually they are reserved for doing something illegal or at least immoral.  Of course maybe the recallers think balancing the budget is immoral.:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:


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## avbill (Jun 11, 2012)

A burl is a tree growth in which the grain  has grown in a deformed manner.  This lumpy, abnormal swelling on the tree  is known as a burl. Burls yield a very highly figured wood, one prized for its beauty and rarity. Some display an explosion of sorts which causes the grain  to grow very erratically, producing "the eye" and it is these burls that are heavily sought after by people. 


Ed,  within the description above;  you will never find a burl that is prefect without cracks. the person needs to understand that law of nature.


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## wizard (Jun 11, 2012)

ed4copies said:


> This guy does live in another country---a place he called "Texas":biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:



OK..Ed..LOL... Just tell us who he is..we will revoke his citizenship and have him extradited to "God's Country" for an education on the vicissitudes of Burl wood. LOL...then you can send him back to "Hell's Country" as the heat, as Parson mentioned, should be going through the roof soon.


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## The Penguin (Jun 11, 2012)

wizard said:


> ed4copies said:
> 
> 
> > This guy does live in another country---a place he called "Texas":biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:
> ...


yeah, like today.

heard to expect temps over 100º today in Houston.

even if that's just the heat index...it's way too early in the summer for that.


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## Smitty37 (Jun 11, 2012)

The Penguin said:


> wizard said:
> 
> 
> > ed4copies said:
> ...


 Well we're headed for about 95 today here in Delaware...


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## brownsfn2 (Jun 11, 2012)

I can't believe that one small piece of wood caused someone to say they will never do business with you again.  I guess you certainly do not need someone like that.  I will be sure to order an extra piece on my next order to make up for it. 

In my limited (1 year) experience I have turned about 25 burls and only one has had a crack large enough to not use the blank.  It was all the way through one half of the blank.  I cut it in half and used it on a Sierra. 

I like the challenge of filling small voids in burls.  I usually reserve a small collection of shavings at the start of a peice in case I do need to fill something.  

Maybe this guy is new.  Keep up the good work Ed!


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## Justturnin (Jun 11, 2012)

I expect it and kind of look for it.  Those bark inclusions and what not typically are where the best figure and color are.  Like others said, you can fill small ones w/ CA and shavings or the big ones are a golden opportunity to be creative and add some stone or some epoxy w/ color in it to really accent the crack.


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## louisbry (Jun 11, 2012)

I never net a burl I didn't like since they invented worthless wood blanks.


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## Monty (Jun 11, 2012)

Smitty37 said:


> The Penguin said:
> 
> 
> > wizard said:
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The heat index is supposed to be just over 100*, actual temps in the upper 90's.


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## Smitty37 (Jun 11, 2012)

Monty said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > The Penguin said:
> ...


 I remember having spent 3 weeks in Houston twice - once in 1970 and the other time in 1971.  As I recall the temperture while I was there was hitting well into the 90s and might have been over 100 a couple of times and the humidity was about 150 (we maybe not quite that high).  We'd step outside to walk to our cars after work and we were soaked by the time we'd coverd 10 steps...so humid that sweat didn't evaporate at all.


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## Monty (Jun 11, 2012)

Smitty37 said:


> Monty said:
> 
> 
> > Smitty37 said:
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We swim through the air all the time down here. :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:


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## Haynie (Jun 11, 2012)

Expectations are like opinions.  Everyone has them.  As usual Ed has proven to be a good guy.  I don't have a lot of experience with burls but it does not take a genius to know that there is no to tell what is inside.


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## SDB777 (Jun 11, 2012)

Burls can have cracks, imbedded bark, dead bugs, and the list goes on.  It's just the nature of burls.  If their after crotch wood, oh my?

I've sent out a few pieces of burls, and since I haven't heard about them being bad, I guess it was just luck of the pick.  




Scott B


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## mrcook4570 (Jun 11, 2012)

Any exposed endgrain will be much more susceptible to wood movement than facegrain.  Crosscut, angle cut, and burl are more prone to cracking than straight grain.  Burl, however, is the easiest to repair and hide the cracks.  Or enhance the 'flaw' with a contrasting inlay (such as crushed turquoise).


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## penhead (Jun 11, 2012)

Hey Ed, just for the sake of discussion, those beautiful blanks that you have on your website and say "(Blank pictured above is a representative sample of what you will receive. They have been dampened with DNA to show the figure.)

After reading this thread and learning much about what a burl should look like, what are those pics of the Brown Mallee Burl Blanks, and Honduran Rosewood Burl on your website..???


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## ed4copies (Jun 11, 2012)

penhead said:


> Hey Ed, just for the sake of discussion, those beautiful blanks that you have on your website and say "(Blank pictured above is a representative sample of what you will receive. They have been dampened with DNA to show the figure.)
> 
> After reading this thread and learning much about what a burl should look like, what are those pics of the Brown Mallee Burl Blanks, and Honduran Rosewood Burl on your website..???



Excellent point, John.

Those pictures were taken of the blanks that were later shipped.  Right now, we have no blanks (well, we have some, but they are not as pretty as we like, so they are not for sale.)

That is how we get all our pictures.  We grab a few of the first ones out of the box and get them wet and take a picture.  Then we count and subtract about ten percent and indicate that's the number available for sale.  That way, when we get down to the last blanks we can look to be certain they are still "nice".

Can you suggest a better method?


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## penhead (Jun 12, 2012)

Nope..your business, run it as you fit.

I have not purchased a wooden pen blank in a long time, nor actually have I made a wooden pen in quite some time...but when I first started turning about a decade ago, I use to buy a 'lot' of wood pen blanks off of ebay...and when i bid on a blank by viewing the pictures provided on ebay, and paid for that blank, that is how i expected the blank to look...taking into account the fact that yes, 'some' change should be expected during shipment as it traveled across the country...JMO-YMMV...




ed4copies said:


> penhead said:
> 
> 
> > Hey Ed, just for the sake of discussion, those beautiful blanks that you have on your website and say "(Blank pictured above is a representative sample of what you will receive. They have been dampened with DNA to show the figure.)
> ...


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## TellicoTurning (Jun 12, 2012)

ed4copies said:


> I got an email today from a person who complained that his burl was cracked.
> 
> To ME, burl wood has "character" when it has a very irregular grain pattern, possibly "eyes" and, inherently there are cracks.
> 
> ...



I expect all woods to have cracks... that what CA is for.  :biggrin:


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## edicehouse (Jun 12, 2012)

Ed (well both of us) seems like very stand up people.  (LOL).  I got a few blanks from Ed and his wife (sorry I can not remember her name), well there were some problems with them.  I sent a PM hey had these issues, and everyone involved jumped through hoops, even though I didn't ask for them too.  It was just a hey I understand things happen, you might notify this person about this.  So no complaints about them, but that ying yang Leroy Smitty, I think he comes into my shop at night and somehow causes me to drop a spring or something from my kits, so I can't find them.  LOL!


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## Smitty37 (Jun 12, 2012)

edicehouse said:


> Ed (well both of us) seems like very stand up people. (LOL). I got a few blanks from Ed and his wife (sorry I can not remember her name), well there were some problems with them. I sent a PM hey had these issues, and everyone involved jumped through hoops, even though I didn't ask for them too. It was just a hey I understand things happen, you might notify this person about this. So no complaints about them, but that ying yang Leroy Smitty, I think he comes into my shop at night and somehow causes me to drop a spring or something from my kits, so I can't find them. LOL!


 Look right around the table in* my* shop where I drop mine and can't find them either......until I see them scooped up by my shop vac.


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## DestinTurnings (Jun 12, 2012)

I recently traded some Lapis Lazuli I have for some items. This is one of the blanks sent to me by Chris Burgess (Justturnin).

It was cracked and had bark inclusions on one end. The other end was clear and perfect burl. Guess which end I picked to make a pen from....

As an FYI, its my carry pen for right now and I just filled all the inclusions with the Lapis.


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