# AAAAARRRRGGGHHH!!! My CA finish is dimpling!!!



## Greg O'Sherwood (Jan 6, 2009)

Or bumping... or blistering... SOMETHING!!!

While finishing a mini bullet twist pen, I am going through my CA finishing schedule; 3 coats of thin, followed by 2 or 3 coats of medium, but I keep screwing it up!

During the 2nd coat of medium, it started developing bums of CA. Bad!!!! I sanded it back down to the wood, and started over.

THis time, during the 3rd coat of medium it started getting the bumps of CA. THis time only a couple small ones, but still bad nonetheless! I know I am giving them plenty of time between coats.

First, what am I doing wrong? Maybe not rubbing it in long enough??? Other than sanding it all off, is there a way to fix this??

Gregory of LookOutHe'sGonnaExplode  Forest


----------



## CaptG (Jan 6, 2009)

Could be rubbing it in to much.  I have gone to 5 or 6 coats of thin ca, just a couple swipes with each coat and letting it dry a minute or so before starting next coat.  Light sand with 600, then mm and eee polish and wax.


----------



## george (Jan 7, 2009)

I also put on 3 coats of thin, 3 of medium and 3 of thick. Do not know why, but I get the rough (bump) surface usualy after 3 thin layers. That is why I sand lightly with 400 grit, just to smooth it out before medium CA. 

I put on about 3 or 4 CA drops of medium on the paper towel, apply with lathe off, turn it on and go left and right until it not starts pulling the paper. That is when I stop, and go to other blank. I do one blank at a time - have better success that way. Also it lets the CA cures on the first blank, while doing the other. 

Do not put on new coat until the previous one is "finger dry". Hope it helps.


----------



## RussFairfield (Jan 7, 2009)

You might try fewer coats and a light sanding between them. All finishes will transfer and magnify the flaws in the surface under them. Six coats is a lot of magnification.


----------



## NewLondon88 (Jan 7, 2009)

george said:


> I put on about 3 or 4 CA drops of medium on the paper towel, apply with lathe off, turn it on and go left and right until it not starts pulling the paper.



To me, that sounds like an awful lot of glue. That could be behind the finish
problems, as that much glue will take some time to set. 

You might have better luck with the lathe spinning at low speed
(allows more even application)
and putting a drop or two on the paper towel as the blank is moving. Only
put on what the wood will take. Most of your CA ends up in the paper
towel anyway.

Of course, I say this like I'm some sort of CA guru or something.. I'm not.
Just sharing an observation.


----------



## Greg O'Sherwood (Jan 7, 2009)

Okay, there may be my problem...

If 3 or 4 drops of medium is a lot, then I'm using the Pacific Ocean! I run a bead of medium CA all the way across the 2" wide piece of paper towel. I then apply to the pen until it just barely begins to pull. It takes 10 minutes to dry each coat...

I'll try again tonight with a couple drops per coat.

Thanks!
Gregory of JustPouringItOnWithABucket  Forest


----------



## jkeithrussell (Jan 7, 2009)

also, don't be married to one particular process.  If you are trying to do 1, 2, 3, and it's not working, then try 3, 1, 2, or even 7, 8, 9 and find something that does work.  just experiment and see what works for you.  for me, the medium is too thick and cures too slowly, so I just use thin and work a little faster.  I basically discovered by accident the process that I'm using now.  

i do tend to agree with the idea that you are using too much ca, but some people have success with more and/or thicker so, again, just do what works.  

I rounded over a bunch of cherry and walnut blanks (just between centers) and practiced on various methods before i found something that would work for me.  Still not 100%, but I'm getting a decent finish most of the time now.


----------



## L1Truckie (Jan 7, 2009)

Try hanging a KC Chiefs flag up in your shop......that should solve most of your problems


----------



## GouletPens (Jan 7, 2009)

Stick with just thin, 6-8 coats. It dries MUCH faster, and provides all the protection you need. Also, rub the wood with acetone before you start. That'll help with a lot of things. You can also alternate every other coat with accelerant, and you'll be able to finish a pen in 5 minutes once you get it down.


----------



## StatProf (Jan 7, 2009)

*Another Idea*

I use BLO (boiled linseed oil) as an accelerant and it works pretty good. Doing this method, I START with thick and I don't have any puddling issues. This is the method that Russ Fairfield shows in the Library. I LOVE this method and haven't had hardly any problems.

Hope this helps,
StatProf


----------



## Greg O'Sherwood (Jan 7, 2009)

L1Truckie said:


> Try hanging a KC Chiefs flag up in your shop......that should solve most of your problems


 

Riiiiiggghhhht...
That doesn't seem to work at Arrowhead, nothing has gone right there in years!

Besides, I am a NY and then Minnesota transplant and still root for those teams. Bet you never met a combined Yankee/Twins fan before!:embarrassed:

StatProf,
I am doing this at slow speed. Tried only thick CA also, and had the papertowel pulled out of my hands 3x, maybe a shorter application time?

GouletPens, I tried accelerant on every other coat before and got clouding. Stopped using accelerant and it went away. Technique maybe?? I'll try the acetone rub.


----------



## george (Jan 7, 2009)

Ever since I have started to put on CA on the not turning wood, I get much better results. It is like the glue has dried on rotating piece even before I have succed to wipe it across the entire blank. 
And since I always do wet final sanding, I must build up thicker layer across the entire blank - that is the reason for 3-4 drops per layer.


----------



## hilltopper46 (Jan 7, 2009)

jkeithrussell said:


> also, don't be married to one particular process.



Wise words - and remember that CA will act differently from one type of wood or material to the next.


----------



## baker4456 (Jan 7, 2009)

I use 3 or 4 coats of thick with activator in between. I use the paper towel under the blank and run the glue down the blank 2 times. The activator (spray can) will help build the glue and of corse harden the glue faster. It will leave riples. Sand back starting with 400 until you get a good even finish then polish down through 12000 mm. I all ways get good results in 30min or less. Sanding back with 400 will remove a couple of coats leaving a smooth. I even ru light down the pen to look for any pits or deformities. I think every one develops something different that works for them. I hope my method helps your method.


----------



## marcruby (Jan 7, 2009)

Just to make things complicated - get rid of most of the coats - the objective is to put a thin layer of plastic on the blank, NOT embed the thing for posterity.  Then get rid of whatever you are using as an applicator.  Go out and buy a packet of thin rubber gloves and use a finger to apply the glue.  Throw out any accelerator.  At best accelerator is useless at worst it will wrinkle and cloud the surface.

If all else fails throw out the CA.  There are plenty of other easier alternatives.

Marc


----------



## woody350ep (Jan 7, 2009)

As has been said many times, to each his own method of CA, so make sure you take all of these with a grain of salt Greg.

That said, I do several things that people have said not to do, and mine works flawlessly.  I DO use accelerant, and get no clouding.  I do 6-9 coats of Medium, no thin and no thick.  I don't use 2 drops per coat, I do like you do and run the bottle down the blank.  I would venture to say it equates to about 4-5 drops per coat.  I use a PT and nitrile glove so it won't stick to my hands.  I apply with lathe running, but at 400 RPM.

All of these things I do NOT get ridges, clouding, cracking, or long dry times.  The accelerant hardens the CA very very quickly.

You don't necessarily have to sand down to wood either.  How big are your ridges?  You could prolly just hit it with some 400 or so to knock em down like most people do and keep on keepin on.  If they are bad bad, then you have probably changed something in your methodology that you are unaware of.  Again, we all do it differently, and I don't think you are that far off, so keep at it.


----------



## GouletPens (Jan 8, 2009)

To make things more complicated for you, I use only thin and LOVE the accelerant. I rarely get clouding, and only when I forget to wipe the wood with acetone before I put the glue on. With 100 people on this post, you'll get 100 different CA methods so find what works for you. Keep in mind, people in Minnesota or Michigan are going to have different results than in Florida and Texas. Weather plays a HUGE factor, as does the wood itself. You'll just have to stick with it and keep trying different methods until you get something you're comfortable with. Then 2 months later the weather will change and you'll have to figure it out all over again. And so it goes!!!!


----------



## woody350ep (Jan 8, 2009)

lol.  Yeah, I only use medium and also LOVE accelerant.  And, just to throw it off some more, I don't wipe with acetone lol.  I clean all my sanding dust with a wipe from PT soaked with DNA, so maybe that acts similarly to the acetone.


----------



## GouletPens (Jan 8, 2009)

woody350ep said:


> lol. Yeah, I only use medium and also LOVE accelerant. And, just to throw it off some more, I don't wipe with acetone lol. I clean all my sanding dust with a wipe from PT soaked with DNA, so maybe that acts similarly to the acetone.


 The DNA is going to accomplish the same this as the acetone, but the acetone evaporates much faster. Plus it smells GREAT:eat:


----------



## mywoodshopca (Jan 8, 2009)

I found I got dimpling if I try to apply a second layer or hit it with the accel too early.

I wipe each blank with acetone, do 3-4 coats of thin CA with about 1-2 minutes between coats with the lathe spinning at 3000k or so. THEN after its dry, I hit it with the accel to guarantee its dry.. I found out the hard way once lol


----------



## GouletPens (Jan 8, 2009)

A note about CA too.....it does go bad over time. If you're using some thin CA you got more than probably 6 months ago, it's not going to act the same as new stuff. Likewise, the temperature is going to make a big diff. too. CA at 55 degrees is not the same as CA at 75 degrees. Oh yeah, and humidity makes a HUGE difference. CA cures with moisture, so if the moisture in the wood is higher or even in the air is higher, the CA will cure differently. There are so many factors for everything!!!!!:tongue:


----------



## bradh (Jan 8, 2009)

I agree moisture may have an impact. Most of us have the heating on and the humidity in the air drops during heating season. CA dries slower this time of year.
  I have found bumps or "orange peel" usually come from too thick a coating. This is true in painting as well.
   Thinner layers of CA, accelerant, BLO or other ways of getting the CA to set faster should help.
   Someone mentioned not getting married to a CA process. This is good advice! CA finishes often need to be adjusted for humidity, age of the glue, wood and other factors. Understanding the signs and adjusting the process are needed. 
   I also recommend the various articles posted here by Russ Fairfield.


----------



## Greg O'Sherwood (Jan 8, 2009)

I redid that pen last night and I think I have it narrowed down. I honestly believe this time I just put WAYYYYY too much on and didn't rub enough to allow the PT to pick up the excess. The bumps were in orbit around the blank on 3 or 4 axis' (sorry, amateur astronomer geekness showing). I did 2 more pens last night and had no troubles at all.

By the way, my humidity is controlled in my Missouri shop/basement and the temp is always (summer or winter) at 65°. I like it there. My CA is less than 2 months old.


----------



## GouletPens (Jan 8, 2009)

Greg O'Sherwood said:


> I redid that pen last night and I think I have it narrowed down. I honestly believe this time I just put WAYYYYY too much on and didn't rub enough to allow the PT to pick up the excess. The bumps were in orbit around the blank on 3 or 4 axis' (sorry, amateur astronomer geekness showing). I did 2 more pens last night and had no troubles at all.
> 
> By the way, my humidity is controlled in my Missouri shop/basement and the temp is always (summer or winter) at 65°. I like it there. My CA is less than 2 months old.


 Sounds like you got it down now....a little goes a long way with CA. My wife's in IT and whenever she gets a problem that turns out to be a "user error", she calls it an ID-10-T error.....:wink: You'll laught if you get the joke.


----------



## Greg O'Sherwood (Jan 8, 2009)

Brian,
Got it. My wife is also in IT. She's been running that one by me since our wedding... 

HEY!!!!! Hooonnnneeeeeyyyyyy!!!!

:biggrin:

Gregory of WithHer,TheJokesOnMe  Forest


----------



## Rarest wood (Jan 9, 2009)

and to make things even more complicated there are so many variables 
people always forget the ambient temprature of the room and the humidity all come into play as well as the quality and differences in the timber we are using.   Just recently I was doing a  CA finish on a pen it looked so nice next day it bloomed with white spots under the finish....all I know is my unheated work shop was near freezing point that day and I believe that was the problem so that said as frustrating as it is you will get there in the end 

my own recipe is 3 coats of CA using finer abrasives between each coat then brasso a fine metal polish the reason I do it this way is that it emulates the shellac/frech polish finish we use in restoration I think most folk seem to work out their own way then that becomes the Gospel according to Cyano de Acrylate (the patron saint of Glue)


----------



## GouletPens (Jan 9, 2009)

Rarest wood said:


> I think most folk seem to work out their own way then that becomes the Gospel according to Cyano de Acrylate (the patron saint of Glue)


 LOL:laugh:


----------



## bitshird (Jan 9, 2009)

Brian, we have the largest group of ID-10-T certified workers per capita in the entire USA. around here it's considered a badge of accomplishment.


----------



## Archerpens (Mar 6, 2009)

L1Truckie said:


> Try hanging a KC Chiefs flag up in your shop......that should solve most of your problems


I tried that, but the problems persisted. I had to go right to the strong stuff, so I hung up a DALLAS COWBOYS flag!!!! There are no problems, only solutions.


----------



## DurocShark (Mar 15, 2009)

bitshird said:


> Brian, we have the largest group of ID-10-T certified workers per capita in the entire USA. around here it's considered a badge of accomplishment.



Unpossible. I work in a mega-church. The place that employs the unemployable.


Wait, what does that say about me?


(I'm still a fan of slop-the-CA-on-and-let-it-cure method.)


----------



## marionquill (Mar 15, 2009)

It could just be old CA glue or it could have froze over the winter and ruined it...l'd simply try using a new bottle of CA see if you still have trouble. 

Jason


----------



## GouletPens (Mar 15, 2009)

marionquill said:


> It could just be old CA glue or it could have froze over the winter and ruined it...l'd simply try using a new bottle of CA see if you still have trouble.
> 
> Jason


 Freezing doesn't ruin CA. In fact, quite the opposite. In order to preserve CA for longer periods it's best to actually but it in the freezer. Now, what that does is keep it in a low-moisture invironment, but the temperature doesn't hurt it. As long as it's up to temperature when you're actually trying to use it, freezing shouldn't harm it. If it's exposed to a lot of moisture though, that's a whole other story.


----------



## DCG (Mar 21, 2009)

Greg - The thread has been very useful and interesting!  And fun with you're as expected great humor.   

Hey, as you get this CA thing down for the KC basement atmosphere I may need to call you for expertise.   Just getting stated on non-important pen projects, but before I get going really good...I'll need to solve the *JustinO'HavingACruddyDaywithCA* problem.  

Really, I'm on pen number say 4 now and have already had to sand some down.  I'm not too worried because I don't have all the necessities yet.  I have only a bottle of thin and sandpaper up to 400.   I do have a beal wheel on the way, along with a bottle of medium and thick.  Oh and some of that high powered up to 12000 grit stuff.

Again.  the thread has been a joy.  Good luck to the Yankee's and Twins !


----------



## Rmartin (Mar 21, 2009)

Does anyone get a bright shine with CA?

Without using a plastic polish? I mean really, you could skip the CA and go straight to the plastic polish.


----------



## NewLondon88 (Mar 21, 2009)

Rmartin said:


> Does anyone get a bright shine with CA?
> 
> Without using a plastic polish? I mean really, you could skip the CA and go straight to the plastic polish.



I think we can all get a pretty bright shine with the CA.. some use the
plastic polish and some don't. Some use just the MicroMesh, some use
Brasso or other abrasives, but they're all doing the same thing as a plastic
polish. 

Skipping the CA and polishing the wood? Sure, depending on the wood type.
It has to be a tight grained wood, the more dense the better.  Will you get
a high gloss? Perhaps .. again, it depends on the wood.


----------



## yarydoc (Mar 21, 2009)

Greg you might want to look at this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orcgOf4siqc
Was posted by William. I get more out of watching than reading and this helped me a lot.

Ray


----------



## leehljp (Mar 21, 2009)

Rmartin said:


> Does anyone get a bright shine with CA?
> 
> Without using a plastic polish? I mean really, you could skip the CA and go straight to the plastic polish.



It isn't the plastic polish that has the shine, it is the plastic polish that 'can' bring the shine out a little more. But even that has variables according to experience and preferences.

CA shine withOUT plastic polish (before I started using it):
http://www.penturners.org/photos/images/940/1_5_Duck_Calls.jpg


----------



## Greg O'Sherwood (Mar 21, 2009)

All,
I solved my CA problem within a couple days of starting this thread - I was just applying too much CA. Solved. No problems since. I daresay I have this finish mastered (props to Towmater and his lesson).

DCG - if you ever want to drop over, let me know, I am available almost any evening and weekends also. I have probably tried almost every finish out there, but none have the gloss and protective attributes that the CA offers, not on porous wood, anyway.

Gregory of StuckOnItLikeSuperGlue  Forest


----------



## Rmartin (Mar 22, 2009)

leehljp said:


> It isn't the plastic polish that has the shine, it is the plastic polish that 'can' bring the shine out a little more. But even that has variables according to experience and preferences.


 
That is a nice shine. I only ask because I see so many people say their last step is to polish with with Hut or EEE or other polishing compound which will wear off quickly.

I have had some success with CA/BLO, and like the quickness of it. I am worried that it will not stand up over time.


----------



## NewLondon88 (Mar 22, 2009)

Rmartin said:


> That is a nice shine. I only ask because I see so many people say their last step is to polish with with Hut or EEE or other polishing compound which will wear off quickly.
> 
> I have had some success with CA/BLO, and like the quickness of it. I am worried that it will not stand up over time.



There can be some confusion about the word 'polish' .. sometimes it means
a product that is put on and stays on.  (or not? :tongue: )

A furniture polish works like this. It doesn't really 'polish' per se .. it leaves
behind oils and waxes to fill in the scratches temporarily. That's why you
need to use them regularly.

But in the traditional sense, polish usually means a compound that removes
fine amounts of material to leave a smooth, even finish.  Think of it as fine
sandpaper without the paper.

This is how plastic polishes or automotive polishes work, they're fine 
abrasives suspended in a liquid. They're not leaving material behind, they
are smoothing out the material that is there, removing some of it.

If you polish a piece of wood with one of these abrasives, then when it
dulls later on, this is not the result of the 'polish' wearing off, but of the
wood surface wearing and exposing a less polished surface. Same with
a plastic.. you can scuff up the surface. EEE is an abrasive 'polish' meant
to remove scratches by leaving even finer scratches of it's own.

When the scratches are fine enough, it looks glossy.


----------



## DCG (Mar 22, 2009)

Greg O'Sherwood said:


> All,
> I solved my CA problem within a couple days of starting this thread - I was just applying too much CA. Solved. No problems since. I daresay I have this finish mastered (props to Towmater and his lesson).
> 
> DCG - if you ever want to drop over, let me know, I am available almost any evening and weekends also. I have probably tried almost every finish out there, but none have the gloss and protective attributes that the CA offers, not on porous wood, anyway.
> ...


 

Will do Greg and thanks for the offer.  Do you end up waxing after the CA or are you getting the shine you want with CA by itself?  

Glad you're having fun and we have another master in the KC area.   Look forward to seeing more of the pens !   Justin


----------

