# Stupidity of Youth



## maxwell_smart007 (Apr 11, 2008)

I am in my very late 20's now, and I've come to an important realization:  I was a stupid kid! 

When I went to university, I didn't fool around, but I also didn't have any direction.  I started out in science, and then philosophy blew my mind, so I ended up with a philosophy degree.  I took 120% of a course load every year (because I hated free time), and got two more degrees.  I had enough credits to get a fourth degree as well, but figured I'd have to spend a fortune getting custom paper so the letterhead would fit the page! 

I always thought that I'd be able to pay the loans back quickly...but again, I was a stupid kid!  

So now, I have a directive for all of you.  Sit down with your kids, and help them find their direction BEFORE they start spending a half-grand per class at university - it will make their transition to later life a LOT easier...I didn't think about life AFTER university while I was in it - I want you to ensure that your kids are money-wise before getting crippling student loans.

Seriously, sit down and give them some money-matters education! 

A public service announcement from your friendly neighbourhood philosopher!


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## VisExp (Apr 11, 2008)

Listen to The Dave Ramsey Show, read his books and live by his financial principles.  It will change your life.  It certainly did ours!

http://www.daveramsey.com/


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## wood-of-1kind (Apr 11, 2008)

Andrew, one word from a very thankful and thoughtful parent:


R.E.S.P. (registered education saving plan)


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## Ron in Drums PA (Apr 11, 2008)

I just told my daughter the same thing, but you know kids, even the bright ones think they are smarter than their parents.

Mark Twain once said, "At 16 I thought my father was the stupidest man alive, when I was 21 I was amazed how much he learned in 5 years"

Student Loan Calculator
http://apps.collegeboard.com/fincalc/sla.jsp


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## DocStram (Apr 11, 2008)

This really hits home with me . .  since part of my job is advising Teacher Education undergraduate students.  Right from Day One I tell them their responsibility is to decide on a major and get themselves out in four years. None of our students can sign up for a course without getting our signature.  It keeps people on track for graduation.  At $37k a year, their parents can't afford to have them playing around with different majors.


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## cowchaser (Apr 11, 2008)

I just wish my parents would have done more for me in that respect. It was all they could do just to keep me in high school. I was a know it all that realizes in today's world I screwed up. A high school diploma doesn't go far these days and I am just one of the lucky ones. 

Doc my wife would love to have a job like yours. Granted she doesn't have a phd, but does have a bachelors in elementary education and a masters in education administration. Wish someone would pay off those loans for me. There was no mommy and daddy paying the bills. Alot of wasted money on classes that were not needed.


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## Firefyter-emt (Apr 11, 2008)

Keith... you hit the nail square on the head there!


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## wdcav1952 (Apr 11, 2008)

Excellent public service announcement, Andrew!

An old man I knew was a second generation hardware store owner.  He wanted better for his two sons.  One has a PhD in an obscure branch of Russian History.  He did get a college position teaching history, but nothing to do with his major.  The other one got his PhD in some sort of computer generated music.  He paints houses.

That being said, there is nothing wrong with painting houses.  However, to keep your parents working until they die to help finance a high cost, not useful education is selfish and short-sighted.  Definitely try to focus on what you want to do with your life.


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## Daniel (Apr 12, 2008)

At the risk of hijacking your thread.
I have worked at a University for over 27 years. with that much time even casual observation has allowed me to recognize the year a student is in. (although today the freshman years lasts 18 to 30 months)
Freshman: the pimple faced kid with the cocky invincable attitude, They group together playing games and drinking during class hours and have no doubt this will make them masters of the universe pretty soon. They also speak a language that resembles english but is full of unusual complex words. All of life can be understood and explained with nothing more than a rudimentary understanding of freud.
You know how it sounds I know you've heard it at least once in you life.

Sophmore: tossle haired, unshaven, ratty worn jeans and a t-shirt that looks like it was slept in for a week. Except that one look lets you know this student has not slept in a week. lugging a bundle of papers and books that they no longer bother having a bag for. Finally realizing that there are actually class rooms on campus. The freshman suddenly realizes how much trouble they are in. Thus transforming to the Sophmore.

Junior: The emergence of the Adult Human begins. Having made up lost time from there Freshman antics, developed some skills in study and generally transformed into a creature that fits well with the higher education community. They have learned to balance Social, Academic and personal activities. pleasent and often even entertaining Juniors are actually prety pleasent to be around. Have tired of giving themselves headaches with the extra effort overly flowered languages causes. and discovering that not bathing is not atractive to the oposite sex. they have pretty much found an acceptable but saddly fleeting center.

Senior: The easiest to spot, Just look for any one with that deer in the headlights look. Usually dressed in business attire they all look terrifiied. The realization that the real world is just around the corner has set in solid and firm. They also know enough to realize that the real world will not be all that impressed with there education. Dreaming of the interview for the vice presidency of a major corporation has been replaced with the knowledge they will be lucky to land a spot in the mail room.


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## negid (Apr 12, 2008)

I just turned 25 fortunately had a good enough head on my shoulders to realize that a degree in philosophy or Russian History would not get me very far in life.

That and the fact that I got married at 19, right after my freshman year, then having my first son during finals of my Junior year, kept me focused. I finished in 4.5 years and have a job making 43k and in 2 years will be making around 55+. I look around at other "kids" my age and shake my head at a generation that is so off track. I've been on my own since I was 19 and have never looked back. The only debt I have is my house and about 18k in student loans.


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## VisExp (Apr 12, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Firefyter-emt_
> 
> Keith... you hit the nail square on the head there!



Lee ... I didn't realize you were a baby stepper   Good on you!


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## Rifleman1776 (Apr 12, 2008)

Dear Maxwell, you said "was" a kid. Newsflash. You are still a kid. Congratulations on your education. Achieving that required dedication and hard work. Now, apply that same kind of dedication and hard work to a career. The loans can, and will, get paid back with time and application of financial common sense. You are only at the beginning of your life and career. I think Daniel hit the nail on the head with his comment about young folks only beginning to realize "that the real world is just around the corner". It ain't so bad. Just get on with it. You are much too young to be looking back with regrets. Look ahead with hope. You have been successful so far, don't stop now.


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## Ron in Drums PA (Apr 12, 2008)

Good Post Daniel, I have to show that to my "soon to be Freshman" daughter


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## Ron in Drums PA (Apr 12, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Rifleman1776_
> 
> Dear Maxwell, you said "was" a kid. Newsflash. You are still a kid. Congratulations on your education. Achieving that required dedication and hard work. Now, apply that same kind of dedication and hard work to a career. The loans can, and will, get paid back with time and application of financial common sense. You are only at the beginning of your life and career. I think Daniel hit the nail on the head with his comment about young folks only beginning to realize "that the real world is just around the corner". It ain't so bad. Just get on with it. You are much too young to be looking back with regrets. Look ahead with hope. You have been successful so far, don't stop now.



Frank, while I do agree with what you are saying 

Kids today are graduating college with $150,000 in loan debt.


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## 1JaredSchmidt (Apr 15, 2008)

That's a lot of money!!!!


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## Aderhammer (Apr 15, 2008)

I'm a  freshmen in highschool this year and i'm surprised talking to friends how so many of them have no direction as to where they want to go, meanwhile i've pretty much planned out my course selection for all the following years.


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## Chasper (Apr 16, 2008)

This is an informative thread, thanks.  My oldest turns 17 tomorrow, I'm an old man and may not be able to be working 10 years from now when my twins are about out of college.  I have too much income for need-based financial assistance (how come it doesn't feel like too much income?).  All three kids currently have aspirations for advanced degrees and ultimately for occupations in medicine and science.  I have my share of worries about paying for college and straddling them with hugh student loans.

Long ago when I was in college I spent three years with what Daniel describes as a freshman look and attitude, then I went through the next three years worth of looks during one frantic year before graduating with a degree in literature and humanities.  I'm not sure I actually learned to do anything useful until graduate business school.  Now years later I think college played a role in helping me learn "how to think," graduate school taught me "what to do."  The rules of business and finance ("what to do") have changed many times since then, but the "how to think" part of my education still comes in handy every day.

I hope my kids don't end up with jobs that have little relevance to their advanced education in some obscure area.  But I also hope they get good exposure to philosophy, literature and the arts before they get busy learning a trade.


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## randyrls (Apr 16, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Aderhammer_
> 
> I'm a  freshmen in highschool this year and i'm surprised talking to friends how so many of them have no direction as to where they want to go, meanwhile i've pretty much planned out my course selection for all the following years.




When I was in High School, my guidance counselor would call me in.  "Randy,  You are in the academic curriculum, why do you want to take (pick one) Typing, Short Hand, Shop, Home Economics?"

All my friends razzed me about taking Home Economics until they figured out there were 28 girls and me in the class!  [}]
But I can cook with the best of them.

My favorite quote is by Robert Heinlein as spoken by Lazurus Long, 
"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects."

When I was working in computers, I was asked if I wanted to transfer to the Mainframe Systems Programming Group.  This group maintains the code that runs the mainframe computers where I worked.  The PC was just being introduced, and I said "No, I would prefer to go into the PC group being organized".  I knew even then that new paradigms create new opportunities.  I retired recently after working in the PC area on networking and security.


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## rherrell (Apr 16, 2008)

I never went to college. My father taught me a trade when I was VERY young and it has served me well for 40 years. NOT ONCE have I collected a dime of unemployment.
College is fine, if that's what the kid wants. Problem is alot of parents push kids to go to college when the kid isn't cut out for it. They end up working at McDonalds with a college degree.
There's nothing wrong with learning a trade. Heck, engineers can only design stuff, they CAN'T BULID IT!


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## negid (Apr 16, 2008)

> _Originally posted by rherrell_
> 
> I never went to college. My father taught me a trade when I was VERY young and it has served me well for 40 years. NOT ONCE have I collected a dime of unemployment.
> College is fine, if that's what the kid wants. Problem is alot of parents push kids to go to college when the kid isn't cut out for it. They end up working at McDonalds with a college degree.
> There's nothing wrong with learning a trade. Heck, engineers can only design stuff, they CAN'T BULID IT!



Only problem with that theory is that you can't even get an interview at 95% of companies without some type of college degree these days. Without a college degree you basically don't have a chance unless you start your own business...or your family owns a business.


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## bbqncigars (Apr 16, 2008)

I beg to disagree.  I see all sorts of help wanted ads of well paying jobs in the trades that accept experience OR a technical/associate (trade school) degree.  The problem is that many of the younger generation does not want to get their hands dirty to earn a living.

Wayne


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## Aderhammer (Apr 16, 2008)

> _Originally posted by rherrell_
> 
> Heck, engineers can only design stuff, they CAN'T BULID IT!


I disagree, there are many engineers who need alot of machining ability to be able to turn out prototypes to test their product for fit, function, styling etc.


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## woodman928 (Apr 16, 2008)

As someone who has worked on a lot of stuff designed by the "Engineers" I can assure you they never worked in the field in which they design it for.

NO engineer should be allow to design anything in any field in which they have not spent at lest 5 years working on that type of stuff.

 They should be require to come and repair there STUPID IDEAS.

Jay


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## Ron in Drums PA (Apr 16, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Aderhammer_
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You are right Andrew


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## rherrell (Apr 17, 2008)

> _Originally posted by woodman928_
> 
> As someone who has worked on a lot of stuff designed by the "Engineers" I can assure you they never worked in the field in which they design it for.
> 
> ...



 You're right Jay. I should re-phrase my comment..... engineers can't build OR design anything. I've never built ANYTHING designed by a "so-called" engineer that I didn't have to change to get it to work. It may look good on paper but that ain't the real world.
Books are fine, but if you don't have any practical experience all that book learnin' don't mean squat.
That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.[}]


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## Ron in Drums PA (Apr 17, 2008)

Let's see

Aerospaces
Aeronautics
Computers

Who do you think designed them and built them?


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## rherrell (Apr 17, 2008)

Let's see......

The space shuttle blew up...
American Airlines had to ground over 3,000 flights recently due to landing gear problems...
And computers?? Where do I begin? I'm sure we all have computer problems.


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## alamocdc (Apr 17, 2008)

> _Originally posted by maxwell_smart007_
> So now, I have a directive for all of you.  Sit down with your kids, and help them find their direction BEFORE they start spending a half-grand per class at university - it will make their transition to later life a LOT easier...I didn't think about life AFTER university while I was in it - I want you to ensure that your kids are money-wise before getting crippling student loans.
> 
> Seriously, sit down and give them some money-matters education!



While I commend this notion, Andrew, I'm really not sure about the practicality of it. I was not ready for college out of high school and some how I knew it. I walked away from a 4 year scholarship at Texas Tech and joined the Air Force. Ten years later I was ready and that's when I went. Like you, I took extra full loads. Not because I hated free time, but because I had a family to support and getting back into the work force was a priority. So I finished in 2 1/2 years. Had I gone to college out of high school I'd have partied and not concentrated on school... and probably would have lost the scholarship in the process.

The same seems true for my sons. However, my daughters all started college out of high school and all did well. Were I to have given my sons this, "an education is very important" speech, they would have ignored me. Actually, both did. And one of them walked away from an engineering scholarship to join the Marine Corps (hhmmm, like father, like son?). Anyway, my point is simply that some may respond to this advice while others will not. They just aren't ready. So how do you know who is and who isn't? You don't... but time will tell.

I think one thing that is equally important to talking to your children about an education is letting them be who and what they wish. I'd have loved for my children to have become doctors, but I never pushed any of them in a particular direction. I did tell them this. You can be anything you want to be, and do anything you want to do to make a living if you have the "want to" bad enough. And I proved it through example. They watched me and their mother (also a late bloomer college wise) go to school. And that's the best you can do. Give them a good example if you can, but give them your blessing regardless.


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## rherrell (Apr 17, 2008)

Well said, Billy.


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## randyrls (Apr 17, 2008)

> _Originally posted by rherrell_
> 
> 
> You're right Jay. I should re-phrase my comment..... engineers can't build OR design anything.



To join the thread;  Engineers design, but they need to know what works and what doesn't.  At one time, the engineer would follow the process thru to completion.  He would find out from the machinist that, "You need this to be stronger, thicker, etc."  The assembly line worker would tell him, "This bolt is hard to get to."  The repair worker would tell him, "This part can't be replaced easily."  The engineer learned from feedback to produce good designs; reliable, robust, easy to repair.

Now, the engineer only designs because the bean counters will not allow him to find out what doesn't work.  "You are a designer, you don't get involved in the production work."

I was at a local craft fair and noticed the man making corn brooms had a tool / jig to hold, and shape and cut the brooms.  I had purchased one several years previous, but I noticed the thing was made of cast iron, HEAVY, and looked *OLD*.  Lettering stamped into the cast iron said "Patent Pending 1899"


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## rherrell (Apr 17, 2008)

Randy, that's as good an explaination as any I've heard. MAYBE engineers aren't the dummys I make them out to be.


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## woodman928 (Apr 17, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Ron in Drums PA_
> 
> Let's see
> 
> ...



As an A&P I rest my case. 
Jay


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## Aderhammer (Apr 17, 2008)

> _Originally posted by rherrell_
> 
> The space shuttle blew up...


Ok the challenger was an administrative fault, the ENGINEERS warned NASA the O rings would fail at the current temperatures.  Columbia was an accident and once again, management at NASA decided to push the limits instead of trying to make a repair.  (p.s. I'll be going to college in a few years to study Aerospace Engineering)


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## RogerGarrett (Apr 17, 2008)

Interesting thread........

I've been teaching at the university level for 20 years now.  I would say that 60% of the students who enter our school graduate with a different degree than they thought they would.  I would also venture that 30% never use their degrees.  

There is a great deal of truth to the notion that one does not need a college education to make a good living.  I know a number of people I can very close friends who have no college degree who are smarter and brighter than the majority of students we have here.  They have raised their children well, have good paying jobs, and they send their kids to college!  Why would they do that?  Well - there are advantages to having a degree, and one of them says to the potential employer that you are trainable.  

As Billy said - you need to be ready.  

We have students here who are paying $31,000 a year in tuition.  Why do they skip classes??????  One class missed is $300!  Sheesh...

Nice story:

My sister-in-law turned 64 this year, but at the age of 62, she received her undergraduate degree from University of Oregon.  She had been toiling away for several years trying to finish up, but she couldn't pass the darn math class.  One day in the grocery store, she ran into one of the staff from the registrar, and they struck up a conversation.  Chris told her that she was thinking she might never graduate because of the math class, and the lady told her that the math class had been dropped from the list of requirements for the degree two years earlier!  After double-checking the information and paying the remaining fees, Chris is the proud recipient of a college degree!  She hasn't used it for anything, but she is very proud.

Best,
Roger Garrett


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## maxwell_smart007 (Apr 17, 2008)

My grandmother received her first university degree at the age of 78..she couldn't afford it growing up, and she received a discounted tuition based on her age, so she went for it...

I was very proud of her on her graduation day...she received a standing ovation from the entire auditorium!  

Andrew


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## Ron in Drums PA (Apr 17, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Aderhammer_
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Andrew
A worthy course of study, my daughter is doing just that this August.

She completed enough AP courses in high school so she only needs 3 years of college to get her bachelors degree. That is a 25% savings in college costs. PM me if you wish and I'll tell you what it costs per year. Your parents are in for a surprise.

Andrew, I wish you the best, you sound like a smart person.


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## Aderhammer (Apr 17, 2008)

Ron, Pm sent


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## redfishsc (Apr 17, 2008)

I never HAD a choice about my education. What I didn't know was that choice had already been made for me long ago. 

I was dead-set and well on the way to becoming a marine biologist. I grew up around aquatics--- fishing, keeping aquariums, playing in the lakes, boating, you name it. I always have been and always will be a naturalist at heart. I had already interned with the South Carolina DNR Fisheries Division, and was in my sophomore year when my plans suddenly, and unequivocally were changed. 

I was in my very early 20's and my fiance' and I both were "snatched up" you might say by the Lord (I didn't find the Lord-- He was never lost-- He found ME). 

About a year or so after, I basically just HAD to pursue ministry. It wasn't that I thought is was a good idea, and it wasn't that I wanted to be a pastor (which is about the hardest job a person could ever do). I simply had this irresistible pull toward a theological education. I finished my B.A. of Religion from Charleston Southern and I'm well underway with my M.Div at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary near Raleigh, NC.  

Seminary is the most difficult thing I've ever seen or done, and the M.Div is 96 grueling hours, but man is this a wild ride! 


Oh, and about that money-issue---- yes, I am paying DEARLY for my choice of Universities. Charleston Southern is a great university, but the price of a private college (which is all you have if you want a theologically sound education) is GROTESQUE. I'm having to pay back a LOT of loans while working part time and taking a LOT of seminary class load. 


Money-Matters indeed!!!!


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## DCBluesman (Apr 17, 2008)

â€œAll the world's a stage and most of us are desperately unrehearsed.â€ - Sean O'Casey

Used properly, higher education does not have to be a negative experience.  I put myself through school so I decided that the intelligent way to do that was by getting all of the "rote" classes out of the way at a communicty college (junior college) at about 1/5 the cost of a 4-year university.  I also worked full-time throughout college.  When I graduated, I had $600 in loans outstanding.  Both my son and daughter have followed suit and both graduated with no outstanding loans.

In terms of using what I learned, I studied finance and spent only 2 years in the field.  I went on to accounting and then sales.  From there, I went on to engineering management and now to telecommunications consulting.  What does my career have to do with my education?  EVERYTHING!

In going to college I learned to budget my time, energy and money.  I learned to estimate time required to complet tasks.  I learned research techniques such that I wouldn't have to memorize everything.  I learned social and professional networking.  I learned to manage relationships.  I learned that there are jerks and stupid people in every walk of life and that I had better figure out how to deal with them.  Beyond all of that, my earnings have outpaced most of the peers who graduated high school with me but chose not to further their education.

Now I don't think everyone needs or benefits from college, but some of us clearly do.  Some of us apply the subjects taken in higher education in leading a more fulfilling life and others of us take advantage of the peripheral learnings.  

Those of you who are my age will remember l'Eggs one-size-fits-all panty hose.  The fact of the matter is, one size fit no one particularly well.  There is no one size fits all in terms of higher education, trade school or anything else.


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