# Are we about to hit rock bottom in the USA?



## redfishsc (Apr 29, 2008)

Normally I don't ruminate over doom-n-gloom and I'm not a doomsday prophet by any stretch, but things aren't looking good. 

With gas prices approaching the boiling point, diesel has already topped one-arm and one-leg per gallon. Shipping costs are bubbling higher, food costs are as well. 

We just go a notice that rent is about to go up $20 a month (on our budget that means several fewer cans-o-beans in the pantry).


But those aren't really huge issues. What is huge is that our airlines tend to be swaggering (fuel and safety costs), what is left of our auto industry is fizzling out (or moving to a third-world country), Korea is producing better cars than we are, and nobody in Detroit has figured out that Americans are sick of unreliable scrap heaps and instead they continue making cars with goofy, flashy widgets that break after the warranty runs out. I can't sleep at night because of the sound of my Chevy car sitting in the parking lot rusting all night.



Our creditors are, and have been, loaning gobs of money to people that I personally wouldn't loan my ONE cigarette lighter to (and I don't smoke), foreclosures on property is at a nutty level, partly due to predatory loans. Not unlike what sparked the Great Depression in some ways. Think of how many tales you've heard of Ma and Pa fighting with the banker over selling enough crops to pay the mortgage. Those aren't necessarily folk tales. That really happened.


And if that weren't enough, Conan Obrien is supposed to take over for Leno in 2009[V]. 

Dear _*heavens*_ what is our world coming to? Conan Obrien _and_ gas at $5 a gallon? I'm moving to...no, wait, OPEC rules that nation too....


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## Dario (Apr 29, 2008)

I am afraid the worst is yet to come.  With all these debt we are accumulating...it will take years (if not decades) to reverse the damage economy wise.  Watch the crime rate rise too as the economy plummet. 

I really hope I am mistaken...


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## Texatdurango (Apr 29, 2008)

I wouldn't worry too much, I can remember the gas lines in the 70's thinking the world was coming to an end and that we would be at the mercy of foriegn oil dictators.  I remember watching the Watergate proceedings as the stock market was going topsy tervy with every hearing.  After 911 I can vividly remember loosing a good portion of my portfolio and thinking so much for an early retirement, now I'll have to work 'till I'm 80!

Seems that every few years there is something!  I think what makes it appear worse now is that we are bombarded with news 24/7 from our I-pods, cell phone text messages, and cable news networks, all competing to see who can draw the largest audiences by having the most dramatic stories!

I think life will go on.  I retired two years ago and am in better financial shape now than then but then again I don't feel the need to buy an $800,000 home or drive a Hummer to impress my friends......... just snazzy pen blanks! 

But about Conan Obrien..... now that IS depressing! [xx(]


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## jclark58 (Apr 29, 2008)

It's even worse than that.  Not only is Conan OBrien replacing Jay Leno, Jimmy Fallon (SNL fame) has been announced as the replacement for Conan Obrien.

Jason


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## fernhills (Apr 29, 2008)

Oh yes,you fogot one thing though,interest rates were hovering around 18 per cent,and there were about 400 people being held hostage,yep times changed huh.. Carl


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## DCBluesman (Apr 29, 2008)

Oh my goodness!  The sky is falling!  The sky is falling!

Or did it already fall in 1973-75 when OPEC quadrupled</u> oil prices and the U.S. went through 2 years of _stagflation_?

Or did it already fall in 1980-82 when the energy crisis of 1979 was followed by Iran's reduction in oil production (after the Ayatollah overthrew the Shah) and the Fed decided to tighten the money supply to control inflation?

Or did it already fall in 1990 and 1991 when U.S. industrial production declined, as did manufacturing-trade.  (Does anyone remember a Presidential campaign slogan "It's the economy, stupid."?)

Or did it already fall in 2001-03 when the dot-com bubble burst, the 9-11 terrorist attacks occurred and massive accounting scandals reverberated through Wall Street (Enron, Tyco, WorldComm, etc.)?

Yes, the U.S. economy is a bit battered, but this is not the first time nor will it be the last.  It is also nowhere near the worst.  

Unemployment is at 5.1%.  Inflation stands at 4% and only 2.4% if you exclude food and energy. Average hourly earnings (production and nonsupervisory workers on private nonfarm payrolls) stands at $17.86. (All info from the Department of Labor)

Less than 1% of the world's population has a better "average" standard of living.


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## alamocdc (Apr 29, 2008)

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for capitalism, but run-away corporate greed is the rule at the moment. And as long as the big money machines keep making money, they don't care who they hurt. Or what other American Corporations (what few are left). And like Dario, I fear we haven't seen the worst yet. Just my gut feeling.

Oh, and I didn't worry about the gas crunch in the 1970's. I grew up in the oil field and knew it was a lie so that the oil companies could capitalize on the double digit inflation we had back then. Everyone got a bigger cut at it than they did back then so they parked the tankers at sea and told everyone they were out of oil at the refineries. As soon as they got their way and the prices jumped substantially, the tankers miraculously appeared. Go figure. Today's strategy is different. It isn't just the oil companies. It's also largely the future's market driving the price hikes. So who looses? Everyone! Except big money, that is. And they don't give a (expletive deleted).


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## stevers (Apr 30, 2008)

Ya Lou, there's been hard times, but this one is lookin bad. Never seen the housing market this bad. We have major financial institutions going belly up. We have three auto manufactures heading for disaster, one is cutting an entire shift. We have fuel as high as it's ever been and is still climbing. We filled up the Jeep this weekend and it cost $62.00 and my little Ranger cost $50.00, and it had a quarter tank. More people than ever before are cashing out their retirement to survive. I could continue, but the way I'm seeing it, it's getting worse, much worse. We have definitely not seen the end of this. It' is also going to to lead to wide spread deception and further corruption, theft in the work place, theft in any place, people doing whatever they have to to survive. We have already moved in family, all the help we can get. May have to move in more. The oldest and his family has settled with his mom. The wifes mom has moved the youngest son and his family on property. It is becoming a multiple family existence. Can hardly survive alone any more. Not to mention, no job is secure any more. I work for the city and they are "eliminating" possissions. Not even lay offs, eliminating possissions. Ya it's not over, and those who think it is or is getting close, hang on to your hats.


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## Grizz (Apr 30, 2008)

My hope is not in the economy,
My hope is not is who is in the White House,
My hope is not in Wall Street,
My hope lies in Christ... with Him all things are possible.


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## VisExp (Apr 30, 2008)

I was born in Zimbabwe.  I went to University in South Africa.  I traveled in England, Scotland and Spain.  I've also been to Venezuela a number of times.  I have lived in the states for about ten years now and have been a proud US citizen for just over two years.

I feel the average US citizen has no idea how good they have it.  I am not suggesting that we live in a utopia.  There are problems here and there are disturbing trends.  The economy has slowed down, I work in the construction field so I know this first hand!  In general though Americans have a great standard of living.  

I believe in the US economy and the resilience, adaptability and entrepreneurial spirit of the American people.  America has survived and prospered through many storms in the short history of this nation.  She will survive and prosper through this one.

I would challenge anyone to go to the following site, http://www.globalrichlist.com/index.php and get a true perspective of where you stand in the wealth of the world.  It is very sobering.

I, for one, count my blessing to be able to live in the USA.


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## redfishsc (Apr 30, 2008)

> _Originally posted by DCBluesman_
> 
> Oh my goodness!  The sky is falling!  The sky is falling!
> 
> ...




You failed to notice the Tonight Show tragedy. We can't sit idly by and let that horrendous crime go unnoticed[B)]


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## rherrell (Apr 30, 2008)

America is like a drunk, it has to hit bottom before it wakes up and does anything about it. When we bottom out some changes will be made, until then it's Democrats and Republicans duking it out and NOTHING gets done!


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## TellicoTurning (Apr 30, 2008)

What happened to the days of the gentleman politician.. He made his living at home, but went to Washington as congressman or senator, did what he could for the country, then went home to his business... not drawing an un-Godly salary from the taxpayers, then every so often voting himself raise.

Gas prices are a problem because they are volatile... if and when they stabilize, no matter what the level, we'll learn to live with them. 

On the mortgage crisis... why do all the lenders just write off the loans and cry "foul", when they could work with the borrowers and at least work out arrangements for them to repay the principle and get their money back on loans that should not have been made in the first place.  

My wife and I retired on just our government stipend about 2 1/2 years ago.. other than some problems with medical, we are doing as well as when we both worked... actually have fewer health problems now that we are out of the stress and tension of working and commuting.  We made sure we were nearly debt free and bought a very very modest little house to retire to... which we had in place 3 years before we retired.  We sold our house in Houston and put all the proceeds into setting up for our retirement... we're doing very well and when I do a show and make a little extra, we put that towards any expenses and house repairs needed.

It's a difficult time, but as is said many ways,   "This too shall pass"


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## redfishsc (Apr 30, 2008)

> _Originally posted by ozmandus_
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Chuck, there is  LOT of wisdom in what you just said. Now, I am 30 years old. I have noticed the my peers, including myself 5 years ago, to be totally clueless to what you just said. 

Now I am learning to live on less and run the car on "fumes" per se. And honestly I'm in better health now that I have been in a LONG time. Seems that giving up my seat at the chinese buffet beside John Pinet was good for me (you heeer fou houwa! you go now!).


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## DocStram (Apr 30, 2008)

Just my opinion . . . but, I always think our country's "Rock Bottom" was when the British burned Washington.


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## rherrell (Apr 30, 2008)

Doc, I thought you might have said it was when the North won. Or is that just a myth?


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## Paul in OKC (Apr 30, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Grizz_
> 
> My hope is not in the economy,
> My hope is not is who is in the White House,
> ...



Amen!


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## Daniel (Apr 30, 2008)

all things pass. in other words you felt good yesterday and now you don't well that will pass also. there will always be ups and downs. overall though I do believe that with wealth and prosperity comes complacency. and we will not stay leaders of the world from armchairs. Agriculture used to be a staple industry in our country and that has passed. the same will and is happening with industry. the new age is information. U.S. citizens consume on a scale that most of the rest of the world cannot even fathom. We cannot even keep up with our own demand for "Stuff". so the rest of the world has stepped in to do it. in many cases we actually went there to help them be capable of doing so. 20 years from now we may all be traveling around on Japanese airlines. All things pass. and so will our time as the leaders of the world


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## Texatdurango (Apr 30, 2008)

I think most economist would agree that the housing situation is a major reason for the current slump we are in not the price of oil or gas and itâ€™s not always corporate greed that causes our problems, often we are our own worst enemies!

We were having a BBQ with friends a few weeks back that live in a neighborhood of homes costing $400,000 and up.  We noticed a few houses down a young couple carrying things out to a U-haul truck themselves all afternoon and my friend saidâ€¦ â€œPoor kids, theyâ€™re loosing their houseâ€

Seems like the â€œpoor kidsâ€, both in their mid twenties, had gotten in over their heads with a mortgage they couldnâ€™t afford along with their college loans and two new cars, did a loan that ballooned on them then couldnâ€™t afford the payments.  The house wasnâ€™t worth what they owed on it so instead of sticking it out, they chose the easy way out and just walked away from the house, literally, and left the keys for the bank!

Iâ€™m not saying it was all their fault and that there werenâ€™t a few greedy loan officers along the way but they knew they were in way over their heads but like many, many others, they were trying to make their fortune in real estate and the bubble broke on them.

No, we have a few more to blame for this mess than corporate glutens and oil companies!  Seems that people have lost their patience these days and want everything NOW, even those who canâ€™t afford it and we all pay the price for their blunders.

But on a serious note; I couldn't sleep for thinking about Conan Obrian taking over the tONIGHT SHOW!


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## rherrell (Apr 30, 2008)

NOT THE PRICE OF OIL OR GAS? Trucks move everything in this country and the price they pay for fuel is DIRECTLY tied to how much things cost. I think most economists WOULD agree with that.


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## DCBluesman (Apr 30, 2008)

Losing Leno for O'Brien is not nearly the scale of tragedy as when we lost Carson for Leno.


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## Dario (Apr 30, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Daniel_
> 
> all things pass. in other words you felt good yesterday and now you don't well that will pass also. there will always be ups and downs. overall though *I do believe that with wealth and prosperity comes complacency. and we will not stay leaders of the world from armchairs.* Agriculture used to be a staple industry in our country and that has passed. the same will and is happening with industry. the new age is information. U.S. citizens consume on a scale that most of the rest of the world cannot even fathom. We cannot even keep up with our own demand for "Stuff". so the rest of the world has stepped in to do it. in many cases we actually went there to help them be capable of doing so. 20 years from now we may all be traveling around on Japanese airlines. *All things pass. and so will our time as the leaders of the world*



Well said and I sadly agree.

I am an American and very proud of it...but...for those who still believe that we are "the" military super power of the world, think again and look hard at China (scary).


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## DocStram (Apr 30, 2008)

> _Originally posted by rherrell_
> 
> Doc, I thought you might have said it was when the North won. Or is that just a myth?



Naw ... Rick.  I consider myself a Southerner. Remember, I'm in The South by choice!  You were only born here.


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## Texatdurango (Apr 30, 2008)

> _Originally posted by DCBluesman_
> 
> Losing Leno for O'Brien is not nearly the scale of tragedy as when we lost Carson for Leno.


True... True!


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## mitchm (Apr 30, 2008)

Similar situation in most of the world, but the wheel of world economics turns, sometimes just slower than we would like. In South Africa: inflation at 10.2%, lending rates around 15%, unemployment 25%-30% and to put 80ltrs of diesel into my car I need to make a short term loan...ZAR850,00. Even when the SA economy is booming, I can still only get one type of pen kit in SA, a PSI 24kt.

As we South Africans would say "Eish"!

Mike


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## Texatdurango (Apr 30, 2008)

> _Originally posted by rherrell_
> 
> NOT THE PRICE OF OIL OR GAS? Trucks move everything in this country and the price they pay for fuel is DIRECTLY tied to how much things cost. I think most economists WOULD agree with that.


Rick, I didn't say the price of oil and gas wasn't a problem.  How much things cost and the poor economic shape we are in I believe are two separate issues.  I just don't believe it's the CAUSE of the economic mess we are in right now.   

People walking away from homes they choose not to keep paying for because their â€œinvestmentâ€ turned sour and lenders claiming horrendous losses on bad home loans wanting to be bailed out by the government for their bad choices caused by their own greed is what is causing a lot of trickle down problems.  

Empty houses in record numbers all across the country, did we over build, over sell, over extend, over invest, probably a little of each.  Are the mortgage holders wanting to sell their homes for realistic pricesâ€¦ no, they would rather be bailed out by the government for their losses with your tax dollars.  Until this  stalemate ends, we will not move out of this mess.  

But this is just my opinion!


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## jeffj13 (Apr 30, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Grizz_
> 
> My hope is not in the economy,
> My hope is not is who is in the White House,
> ...



Amen.

And my God will meet all your needs according to his glorious riches in Christ Jesus. Phil 4:19


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## rherrell (Apr 30, 2008)

> _Originally posted by DocStram_
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Me too, Doc! I was born and spent the first 38 years of my life in San Pedro, California, go figure.


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## Russianwolf (Apr 30, 2008)

we aren't at the bottom yet. Why? because the builders can't seem to stop building houses. The houses that they are building have to be sold more and more cheaply which causes everyones home values to continue going down. 

The gas prices I see as a good thing. Painful, yes, but good. High gas prices is the only way that we will look for 1)more efficient cars immediately and 2) alternatives to oil for energy.

It's easy to support the right thing when you aren't directly effected by the negatives, it's harder but no less important to support it when you are effected by the negatives.


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## Dario (Apr 30, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Russianwolf_
> 
> 
> The gas prices I see as a good thing. Painful, yes, but good. High gas prices is the only way that we will look for 1)more efficient cars immediately and 2) alternatives to oil for energy.
> ...



"Necessity is the mother of all inventions"


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## alamocdc (Apr 30, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Texatdurango_
> 
> 
> 
> ...



George, I agree that the housing issue is a serious one. But it isn't the biggest player in our economic woes. But then neither are the rising gas prices. There are many factors, of course, but right now the one that hits we the consumer the hardest (at least for my house) is fuel. We have kids and grandkids in TX and NC and we travel frequently b/c we like to keep up with them. The phone and email is nice, but you can't put your arms around a telephone. The higher gas prices means that we will have to change our life style and give up things we enjoy. Seeing our kids is unfortunately one of them. And we do we have to make this sacrifice? So someone can line their pockets. We work ourselves to death so that we "might" be able to retire w/o worries. Now this too is in jeopardy, and I'm not happy about it. Why should we have to pay for somoeone else's yacht, mansion, or swimming pool?

As for the housing industry, interest was low and folks began to discover that they could get a house for less than what rent was costing them. But like others of late, mortgage companies saw $$$ and often went to less than admirable lengths to get families into a home. Now they are paying the consequences. Builders aren't much different and went on a building spree that hasn't stopped yet. Why? Because you can get into a new home less expensively than a used one because of the financing available.

What's the solution? IJMO, but I think the only thing that will shake the greed out of big business is failure. And that means depression, if not serious recession. But we've done it to ourselves. We've abandoned our foundation and support structure and He rewards accordingly.


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## philb (Apr 30, 2008)

I wish petrol was $5 a gallon here!

Its now nearly $10 a gallon in the UK!!!


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## Jarheaded (Apr 30, 2008)

I have traveled the world and have seen some things that would make you sick if you saw it, I know that because it made me sick and that's not easy. I have been in places where people have to dig if you want water, where people have to worry about whether they will have a meal today or tomorrow or the next day. I have seen some inhumane situations that were brought on by nature and by people. I have had the option to live anywhere in the world that I chose, but I made the decision to live here, because this is where I feel it is the best of conditions and the best place to survive. We may have to pay more for gas now, and a whole lot of other prices are going to go up as well, but this is where I still choose to live. If you think this is bad, maybe you have never really seen how bad things can be. Leno, O'brian, whoever, it doesn't really matter in the big picture, we can either sit and complain about things, or we can still do something about it. The big problem is that most people would choose to just complain about it because it is easier and they don't even have to get up from in front of their TV. Some are survivors and some aren't, you have to choose which one you are.


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## SuperDave (Apr 30, 2008)

*Sorry for the long post...*

As mentioned earlier, the Futures or Commodities market is the biggest influence on the price of oil and gas. Remove them from the commodities exchange and prides would not be as volatile.

(Quoted)

The process of trading commodities is also known as futures trading. Unlike other kinds of investments, such as stocks and bonds, when you trade futures, you do not actually buy anything or own anything. You are speculating on the future direction of the price in the commodity you are trading. This is like a bet on future price direction. The terms "buy" and "sell" merely indicate the direction you expect future prices will take.

If, for instance, you were speculating in corn (substitute oil and gasoline for corn), you would buy a futures contract if you thought the price would be going up in the future. You would sell a futures contract if you thought the price would go down. For every trade, there is always a buyer and a seller. Neither person has to own any corn to participate. He must only deposit sufficient capital with a brokerage firm to insure that he will be able to pay the losses if his trades lose money.

In addition to speculators (traders), *both the commodity's commercial producers and commercial consumers also participate*. _The principal economic purpose of the futures markets is for these commercial participants to eliminate their risk</u> from changing prices_.

On one side of a transaction may be a producer like a farmer (oil importer  or refiner). He has a field full of corn(oil and gasoline) growing (stored) on his farm (refinery). It won't be ready for harvest for another three months. If he is worried about the price going down during that time, he can sell futures contracts equivalent to the size of his crop (supply) and deliver his corn to fulfill his obligation under the contract. Regardless of how the price of corn changes in the three months until his crop will be ready for delivery, he is guaranteed to be paid the current price.

On the other side of the transaction might be a producer such as a cereal manufacturer (refiner or retail supplier) who needs to buy lots of corn (oil or gasoline). The manufacturer, such as Kellogg (*Exxon*), may be concerned that in the next three months the price of corn will go up, and it will have to pay more than the current price</u>. To protect against this, Kellogg (*Exxon*) can buy futures contracts at the current price. In three months Kellogg can fulfill its obligation under the contracts by taking delivery of the corn. _This *guarantees that regardless of how the price moves in the next three months, Kellogg (Exxon) will pay no more than the current price* for its corn_.

In addition to agricultural commodities, there are futures for financial instruments and intangibles such as currencies, bonds and stock market indexes. Each futures market has producers and consumers who need to hedge their risk from future price changes. The speculators, who do not actually deal in the physical commodities, are there to provide liquidity (*money*). This maintains an orderly market where price changes from one trade to the next are small. 

Rather than taking delivery or making delivery, the speculator merely offsets his position at some time before the date set for future delivery. If price has moved in the right direction, he will profit. If not, he will lose.

(End quote)

So, you see it is the buyers and resellers of petroleum based products that use the commodity market to guarantee that they will never lose money, that are making you pay more at the pump. 

Then factor in all the "excuses" that the refineries use to slow or shut down production (so they can artificially manipulate supply against demand) and you can see why they score big on the commodities exchange. That is why *Exxon, Shell*, etc., continue to post record profits *EVERY QUARTER*! The only losers are the traders that guess wrong on the commodities exchange and the consumers at the pump.

Consumer demand is not the true reason like they want you to believe. The demographics of America show that the population segment called baby boomers, does not drive as much as they did pre-retirement. Combined with their parents and grandparents, we represent the vast majority of our population. So if demand is not keeping pace, the only way to keep prices growing is to artificially shorten the supply, thus driving the price of oil and gasoline up.

This will continue until they feel that the consumer has reached an economic "pain threshold" (my guess is that $4.50 - $5.00/gallon is their target) and then price increases will slow and then retreat to a "lower" (yet substantially higher price) of maybe $3.75 - $4.00/gallon. Once we are comfortable with the new order, they will start the process all over again.


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## kent4Him (Apr 30, 2008)

I'd still take this economy over the recession of the 70's.  Double digit inflation, interest rates and unemployment.  I also don't see long lines at the gas pump.


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## Dario (Apr 30, 2008)

I am a migrant...came from a place where police officers and military are shot on the streets while; working, on their way to work, with their family, etc.  Where some people don't know where to get their next meal.  Where some dig through trash looking for things to re-cycle and sell all their life.  Where you see dead bodies in the news everyday. Where people sell a kidney to buy food.  Where people live in a shack made of cartons or none at all, etc.  One thing I know, they are like that not because of laziness but because they don't have a choice.  The government failed them (mostly due to corruption).

I too chose to live here and I am blessed to have that opportunity to escape the insanity. I've posted before that most Americans don't know or appreciate how good they have it and probably cannot live the way 3rd world people does.   That said, I don't want...no...I refuse to compare USA to any third world country because it doesn't have to be.

It is not whining when you compare how it is vs how it could be because we really can do much better.

As posted above...maybe we need this wake-up call.


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## redfishsc (Apr 30, 2008)

> _Originally posted by DCBluesman_
> 
> Losing Leno for O'Brien is not nearly the scale of tragedy as when we lost Carson for Leno.




Losing Carson to anybody is bad enough. I wonder why he became such a recluse after retiring? 

Boy I wish Chris Farley was still around, let him take over the show.


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## wdcav1952 (Apr 30, 2008)

> _Originally posted by DCBluesman_
> 
> Losing Leno for O'Brien is not nearly the scale of tragedy as when we lost Carson for Leno.



Hear, Hear!!!!!!


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## gerryr (Apr 30, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Dario_
> 
> I am a migrant...



I didn't know you keep moving around all the time.


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## DocStram (Apr 30, 2008)

> _Originally posted by gerryr_
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Geeezeee .... at first I thought he said he was a vagrant.


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## Dario (Apr 30, 2008)

migrant

noun
1. traveler who moves from one region or country to another 
2. One that moves from one region to another by chance, instinct, or plan.
3. a person or animal that migrates.

â€“adjective
1. migrating, esp. of people; migratory.
2. from L. migrantem (nom. migrans), prp. of migrare "to move from one place to another" (see migration). The noun meaning "person who migrates" is first recorded 1670.


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## Texatdurango (Apr 30, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Dario_
> 
> migrant
> 
> ...


So you like... fly south for the winter or what? []


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## DocStram (Apr 30, 2008)

> _Originally posted by DocStram_
> 
> 
> 
> ...



vagrant

noun
1. a person who wanders about idly and has no permanent home or employment; vagabond; tramp.
2. a person who wanders from place to place; wanderer; rover.
3. wandering idly without a permanent home

adjective
6. wandering or roaming from place to place; nomadic.
7. not fixed or settled,


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## Dario (Apr 30, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Texatdurango_
> 
> 
> So you like... fly south for the winter or what? []



That is tiring so I just settled deep, deep south. []


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## redfishsc (Apr 30, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Dario_
> 
> I am a migrant...came from a place where police officers and military are shot on the streets while; working, on their way to work, with their family, etc.  Where some people don't know where to get their next meal.  Where some dig through trash looking for things to re-cycle and sell all their life.  Where you see dead bodies in the news everyday. Where people sell a kidney to buy food.  Where people live in a shack made of cartons or none at all, etc.  One thing I know, they are like that not because of laziness but because they don't have a choice.  The government failed them (mostly due to corruption).
> 
> ...




Thanks for sharing that Dario. 

I recently went to a small, fairly poor (by American standards) city 45 minutes south of Eagle Pass, TX. 

The people were very poor and live in very, very small cinderblock 10X10' huts with bamboo roofs. 


But they did not act unhappy. Times were tough for them, but they have learned to adapt. Crime in this city was VERY LOW, not a place you felt uncomfortable to be at all (when you habla some espanol it helps too).


What worries me in America is that if we hit another Great Depression, how INSANE and STUPID our middle class will become when they suddenly become "lower class". I see how our middle class, baby boomer and Gen-Xers act when they don't get their way, and it AIN'T purdy! Now imagine 150 million of them all p/o'ed and acting like someone owes them a prosperous living.

Lack of money doesn't scare me, because I don't have any right now anyhow[)]. The Lord has taken good care of us the 7 years we have been married and the 8 years we've been followers of Christ. It's folks that have money (or excess credit card debt) right now and depend on it greedily to support their burgeoning beltline and loose living that scare me. 
[B)]


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## DocStram (Apr 30, 2008)

My thinking is that in times of uncertainty, you can only count on yourself . . . your family . . . and maybe your friends.  You certainly can't count on your government.  Whether we like it or not, we live in a capitalist society.  Businesses are in business to make a profit.  That's how our country works . . . and, that's why I'm not a businessman.  I'll take the helping profession any day. It's why I was put on Earth.    

With that said, a capitalist should not be complaining about oil companies making huge profits. Nothing says that you should be in business to make a small or medium profit.  If I don't like the price of gas .... I'll try to find ways to use less gas.  If the price of food continues to climb  . . . I'll plant a larger garden.  

Just my two cents .... errrr make that twenty dollars.


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## Aderhammer (Apr 30, 2008)

All of you are complaining, but you guys have not looked down.  Us, the kids and teenagers, we have no choice in where this country goes and we'll be walking into the mess left by the citizens ahead of us.


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## redfishsc (Apr 30, 2008)

> _Originally posted by DocStram_
> 
> My thinking is that in times of uncertainty, you can only count on yourself . . . your family . . . and maybe your friends.



Man if that was all I had, I'd be in such a world of hurt! I gave up on counting on myself a long time ago when I found out that I was basically unreliable and selfish (that's changed a little, but just a little). My family and friends, well, that's another story. I love them all, but you know how that goes. We've been able to live a good life by the grace of the God alone, and by "good life" I am not talking about material stuff, though He has kept food on the table. I just know that I can look to my dependable wife on those hard days and, just like Sonny, say, "I got you babe!"-- God's been good to me in many ways!


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## redfishsc (Apr 30, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Aderhammer_
> 
> All of you are complaining, but you guys have not looked down.  Us, the kids and teenagers, we have no choice in where this country goes and we'll be walking into the mess left by the citizens ahead of us.



Aderhammer, you are right. I once heard an old proverb I'm sure you're familiar with, considering your signature (and one of my favorite songs of all times). 

It says "You know a dream is like a river
Ever changin' as it flows
And a dreamer's just a vessel
That must follow where it goes
Trying to learn from what's behind you
And never knowing what's in store
Makes each day a constant battle
Just to stay between the shores...and

I will sail my vessel
'Til the river runs dry
Like a bird upon the wind
These waters are my sky
I'll never reach my destination
If I never try
So I will sail my vessel
'Til the river runs dry

Too many times we stand aside
And let the waters slip away
'Til what we put off 'til tomorrow
Has now become today
So don't you sit upon the shoreline
And say you're satisfied
Choose to chance the rapids
And dare to dance the tide...yes

There's bound to be rough waters
And I know I'll take some falls
But with the good Lord as my captain
I can make it through them all...."


My dream was once to be a marine biologist. That dream changed over a two year period and now all I want to do is teach (in a church). That's something I can do regardless of what the economy is. 

Economics can't take away your dream. If it could, neither Martin Luther, the old German Reformer, nor Martin Luther King Jr. could have succeeded in the way they did. They had some rough waters, but they also knew their Captain.


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## wudnhed (May 1, 2008)

It seems to me things always get worse in the US on an election year, JMO.


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## loglugger (May 1, 2008)

> _Originally posted by wudnhed_
> 
> It seems to me things always get worse in the US on an election year, JMO.



I will agree with this.
Bob


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## rherrell (May 1, 2008)

Me three, what a racket.


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## redfishsc (May 1, 2008)

hmmmmm. I hadn't thought of that. You're probably onto something.


Speaking of the election year, I find it so astonishingly funny that the person who is in hot water over what his _preacher_ said is a left-wing democrat, not a right-wing conservative republican. There is just some kind of bizarre, hilarious irony to that.


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## SuperDave (May 1, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Aderhammer_
> 
> All of you are complaining, but you guys have not looked down.  Us, the kids and teenagers, we have no choice in where this country goes and we'll be walking into the mess left by the citizens ahead of us.



Andrew,

I know it can sometimes feel that way, however, the younger generation has a lot it can do to influence the direction of the country. 

1. Become "well" informed of the facts not just sound bites and drive-by commentaries.
2. Become "well" informed of our history on all fronts (economic, political, etc.)
3. Get involved. In the elections of 2008, the 18-30 year old vote will make the difference in many races.
4. Come together as a demographic group to effect changes. After all, the social programs that will support the Baby Boomer's will be supported by the younger generations, just as the Baby Boomer's supported their parents and grandparents.

Nothing substantial will happen unless you take ownership and educate yourselves so you can participate in an effective fashion. The current political process feeds on apathy and that has been an issue for far too many decades, where less than 50% of the voting population actually turns out and exercises their right to vote. It's a sad commentary when less than 25% of the registered voters actually elect the President.

As for understanding the issues; a case in point:

Are we really in a "*housing crisis*" as the politicians and media claim? No. We are in an economic correction. 

Suppose the lending institutions were not writing bad paper making loans to people that normally would never have qualified for a car loan, let alone a mortgage. Where would the housing market "REALLY" have been? 
1. Builders build to meet the artificially increased demand, 
2. Home values increase unrealistically because of the artificially stimulated demand, 
3. Then the bubble pops, 
4. The bad loans (which should never exist in the first place) cannot be paid, 
5. Home sales stall then decline, 
6. Home values "readjust to more realistic values" 
7. And the housing market "CORRECTS" itself to where it should have been in the first place, had CONGRESS and the financial institutions acted properly. 

The "housing crisis" is as artificial as the demand created by unethical financial institutions. If we had double digit unemployment, double digit interest rates (not talking credit cards rates here) and inflation was out of control, all of which stopped a "normal" housing market, then that would be a crisis. We do not have a crisis.

Sure, people with minimal income, two new cars, credit card debt and now a new home, are in a "crisis" of their own making because they bought into the sales pitches and a "gotta have it now" mind set. People that were living within their means are not losing their homes or are still in the apartments/rental homes they have been in for years.

It's all about becoming adequately informed and involved. It's your choice.

Dave


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## loglugger (May 2, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Aderhammer_
> 
> All of you are complaining, but you guys have not looked down.  Us, the kids and teenagers, we have no choice in where this country goes and we'll be walking into the mess left by the citizens ahead of us.



I remember thinking just about the same thing when I was a couple of years older than you, the year was 1968.
Bob


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## Grizz (May 2, 2008)

> I remember thinking just about the same thing when I was a couple of years older than you, the year was 1968.
> Bob



And did you trust any one over the age of thirty?


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## loglugger (May 2, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Grizz_
> 
> 
> 
> ...



There was a couple of teachers over 30 that I was sure glad they were not running everything and a few under 30 I hoped would not ever run anything,  other than that I didn't think much about it. Same old stuff with the news people, we are going into an new ice age, better build a bomb shelter, there won't be any SS when you retire, bread, eggs and gas prices going up. Life goes on one way or another.
Bob


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## hehndc (May 2, 2008)

I agree with Superdave.  The housing thing is all about people getting into houses they could not afford.  People lending money for houses believing that the home value would continue to climb, if a default happened.  This whole eythenol thing will drive food prices higher and higher as the price of corn goes through the roof.  With the major media outlets pining for a democrat in the Whitehouse, you can bet we will hear about "how bad is" until after the election.

Anyone remember the early "80's"?  I do and we ain't there (yet).

Just my 2 cents.

Steve


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## Jim in Oakville (May 2, 2008)

> _Originally posted by DocStram_
> 
> Just my opinion . . . but, I always think our country's "Rock Bottom" was when the British burned Washington.



They were Canadians....watch out, we have GPS and can do it again![)]

Gas here today is $1.20/Litre


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## redfishsc (May 2, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Jim in Oakville_
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Eh, I'm not worried about a bunch of Mounties galloping toward Washington[}]--- we've all seen Dudley Do-Right, not much to be afraid of there.


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## Jim in Oakville (May 2, 2008)

> _Originally posted by redfishsc_
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Forget the Mounties, if you want to put fear into some one try a team of beer drinkin, stick swingin hockey players ..... It's playoffs for Stanley, we'll start a riot anywhere for a Post game celebration!![)]


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## redfishsc (May 3, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Jim in Oakville_
> 
> 
> Forget the Mounties, if you want to put fear into some one try a team of beer drinkin, stick swingin hockey players ..... It's playoffs for Stanley, we'll start a riot anywhere for a Post game celebration!![)]




About 10 minutes from my house is a bunch of rednecks called the Hurricanes that show you Canadians a thing or two about going to a fight and playing a lil' hockey to boot. 

And we ain't afeard of anyone named Stanley, neether!


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## thetalbott4 (May 3, 2008)

> Gas here today is $1.20/Litre


 Maybe we should switch to the metric system. All we have to do is cross out "Gallon" and put in "Litre" and the price drops by 2/3. See, metrics aint so bad. I think that comes with free health care too.


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## Dario (May 3, 2008)

> _Originally posted by thetalbott4_
> 
> See, metrics aint so bad.



IMHO, metric system is far SUPERIOR.

It does involve some re-education and swallowing of pride that OUR current system is not the greatest to switch. 

We did a semi-study for the Navy and the hardest hit if we switch will be mechanical systems.  Imagine all the pipes, bolts, nuts, threads, gears, etc. that will be impacted.

New ones are no problem...stocking enough so you can maintain older systems later (if they need to be repaired) is the problem (and the PRIDE).  LOL


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## redfishsc (May 3, 2008)

Because of the amount of physics and biology I took at a community college, I'm quite happy with metrics. 

I also worked at a cabinet shop that use only metrics. 

Metrics are so much more user friendly than American silliness.


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## Jim in Oakville (May 3, 2008)

> _Originally posted by redfishsc_
> 
> 
> 
> ...




And half of that team is made up of Canadians...BEWARE, we are every where!!!

[}]


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## Jim in Oakville (May 3, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Dario_
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hey Dario,

I don't know if it's superior but I find it simple and common sense.  I am 49, in Canada we went metric in 1970, just when I started High School.  I can still remember memorizing the conversion factors from standard to metric, I can recite them today easily.  I feel comfortable in either, but volumes like quarts and cups have become foggy for me.

My daughter who is in grade 6 has no idea what a mile is, a quart, a pound or even what an inch is....she's 100% metric and I find it interesting to listen to her describe elements using metric terms.

I will also prefice that I was on the path to a PhD in science (geology) when cancer changed my life..... all my lab and field work was in metric... I do have both elements in my work shop I admit, and, I still convert my fuel consumption into miles per gallon (Imperial)...some things are hard to convert and still hold meaning.

One interesting fact that always makes me smile, when on a golf course here, they still use yards for measurement...and once my daughter asked is a yard as wide as our propery as that is a "Yard"....LOL, don't you just love diversity...

I think converting the US to metric would work at a base level, but like most of America the "pride" in standard measure would be a sticking point for many and the resistance could be overwhelming on an emotional level...

My dad bought a Toyota Corona in 1969, it was a huge curiosity in our neighbourhood.  He had one of the first Japanese cars in our village.  It was metric in every aspect, but it was not the first car he had owned that was like this, we previously had owned a 1959 Peugeot.  In Quebec cars from France and other European countries were a common site, less so in any other provinces and even less so in the US.  I know growing up in Quebec gave me a more European "feel" towards adjustment to going metric, it had been intiated since the post war years there when trade between Quebec and a recovering Europe was growing faster than anywhere else in North America...it was cheaper for many to buy European then than from the US.  Somethings continue to cycle eh!


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## panini (May 3, 2008)

To cost of born and living in Hawaii:
median single-family home resale price to $628,000
if you rent average $1600mon not utilities included

gas $3.98 as of 5/2
diesel 4.68
rice 20lb bag 8.99 everday staple
milk 1/2gal 3.69
carrots 1.09 ea
romaine lettuce 1.9lb
chicken breast 1.99 lb
 all shipped from the the lower 48

closed down 1 interisland airline "Aloha Air"
to fly to Honolulu round trip avg $120.00, you just can imagine if a school team has made it to the state finals, thats not including car, hotel, but usually kids sleep in the opposing schools gym. Ladt weekend kids went to the JROTC competition, kids slept in the field in tents, shower in the park.

But, That's the trade-off living in paradise.


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## jcollazo (May 3, 2008)

My wife, an RN, picked up a new Honda Metropolitan scooter this morning. The local price of unleaded is about $3.75/gal. Even though the hospital where she works is only 3 miles from home, the scooters' 100mpg will mean she'll have to fill up about once a month. Gas prices have impacted the 2 of us a little bit, but our kids are still driving around as if gas was as cheap as water. They just can't get it through their heads that the reason they don't have enough money at the month is because they're spending it all on gas!

I teach 'em everything I know and they still don't know nuttin' !


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## cowchaser (May 3, 2008)

> _Originally posted by jcollazo_
> 
> My wife, an RN, picked up a new Honda Metropolitan scooter this morning. The local price of unleaded is about $3.75/gal. Even though the hospital where she works is only 3 miles from home, the scooters' 100mpg will mean she'll have to fill up about once a month. Gas prices have impacted the 2 of us a little bit, but our kids are still driving around as if gas was as cheap as water. They just can't get it through their heads that the reason they don't have enough money at the month is because they're spending it all on gas!
> 
> I teach 'em everything I know and they still don't know nuttin' !



Mine can't get it through her head either. That might be because my wife hands over the cash like it's growing out back though. Hmm, wonder what would happen if I cut them both off.


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## Russianwolf (May 3, 2008)

> _Originally posted by panini_
> 
> To cost of born and living in Hawaii:
> median single-family home resale price to $628,000
> ...


Heck those prices are better than the local prices in WV for everything but the gas, and that's only .20 worse. 25lb bag of rice is $20 and increasing here. My wife is from Manila, so she will never allow us to run out. MAybe we should move to Hawaii.


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## OKLAHOMAN (May 3, 2008)

> _Originally posted by cowchaser_
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Dustin, how comfy is your couch again?


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## bitshird (May 4, 2008)

> _Originally posted by rherrell_
> 
> Doc, I thought you might have said it was when the North won. Or is that just a myth?


The North won, Oh My God what will happen to us now
Fortunately Tennessee has one of the lower cost of living indexes in the U.S. My house is paid for, and I only owe around 2 grand on my daughters car, I'll get my  first Social Insecurity check next month, and  I already have a pension although it was severely raped by the 
previous bouts of Wall Street bunglers, thieves and fund Molesters.
 During the 70s gas shortage, I've seen tankers being loaded with oil in San Pedro then seen the same ships parked on the lee side of Anacappa Island, then brought back after a week or so off shore and sold as Imported oil which was bringing higher prices than domestic crude. So much for that shortage!!
 I remember the 400 held hostage in Iran, and the President that virtually did nothing other than allow interest rates to climb to 18%.
What scares me about this time, our Dollar has fallen so drastically against the Metals market.
 Yes I've seen gold at 850.00 per OZ and silver at 40.00 but only for a few hours, and oddly enough that too was a staged event, all for profit.
Don't get me wrong, I ain't a commie, I love our capitalistic ways, Just in case any body has been listening to the ambiguous rhetoric of the current crop of Presidential candidates you have to realize  WE ARE IN TROUBLE...
 As long as their is profit involved any thing goes, it's like the previous incursions on our way of life, the shortages of oil the collapse of the savings and loans, the bail out of a poorly ran auto manufacturer, the manipulation of the precious metals market, the crashing of the mutual funds markets all this stuff is all coming together in a giant Tsunami and it's  going to drastically change the way we live. 
The scary thing for me is I have a son a daughter and a grand son, I realize that there are places in Europe that pay around nine dollars a gallon for fuel, I realize that we still have a very pleasant life style compared to many parts of the world, But My family and I don't live there!!! we live in what used to be the epitome of places to live, with the second highest standard of living in the world, the only country that had a higher standard was Switzerland, I think it still holds that position.
 It's still not bad here but give it some time, given that all these inner city folks have all these knives and forks with nothing to cut they are going to have to feed their habits and families some how.
 I really don't care about the D.O.L. unemployment report, I live in a county of about 25,000 there have been over 3500 jobs lost in the past year with more layoffs in sight.
 Things are so bad here I'm considering building a closer to stock engine for my Volkswagen, It cost me nearly 30 dollars to fill it up last night.
 Of course now with out dumb things like a job and getting to work, a tank should last me at least a week or better since I can walk the 50 feet to my shop.
Nice part is at my age maybe I'll start forgetting things, (quicker)


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## redfishsc (May 5, 2008)

OK, I'm removing my "subscribe to this thread" option, my email account is so heavy that Hotmail had to add leaf springs to it's server!


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