# buyers beware



## Stacker (Aug 3, 2007)

A week or so ago I was bidding/watching a sale on Ebay, a huge variety pack of pen blanks was how it was advertised. I went in with the high bid and won it, I received the package yesterday through ups.
Lots of amboyna burl shorts and lacewood,anyway to make a long story short, I came to the abrupt realization that this was a box of end cuts and cross cuts. Out of 40 blanks turned, 3 made it to the polish state.

I emailed cookwoods with my complaint,
I'm in to this for $142.00 US+ $204.00 expedited UPS.
Lindsey at cookwoods replied with send it back to us and "IF we determine that the description was inaccurate" we'll refund your purchase and shipping both ways. A pretty big IF!
My question is, shouldn't they have determined that the description was accurate BEFORE they shipped it?

I'm eating this order but I just wanted to give you all a heads up.


[xx(]

Rob


----------



## pentex (Aug 3, 2007)

The last two times I ordered wood off e-bay have been terrible. The wood was very bad. Had to file paypal complaint with the last two. One did not ship the wood and finally got a refund and the other finally shipped the wood and it was a box of cross cuts that I could not turn and finish. Really have to be careful.


----------



## GaryMGg (Aug 3, 2007)

Rob,

Does what you got not look anything like the pics they had?:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330146873238

It'd be surprising if Cook Woods didn't sell what they described. I've only
dealt with them once but my furniture making friend got a lot of exotics from
them. They're not shy about getting premium prices for their product but
their lumber has been what they claimed.

What blanks are blowing out on you? Why do you think they're blowing up?

Gary


----------



## Stacker (Aug 3, 2007)

The lace wood and the amboyna shorts are blown away. They turn to a point and then "poof" they're gone. I believe the reason is because they are cross cuts, some wood can be cross cut and turned successfully, this stuff cannot. 
 I laminated some yellow cedar and Brazilian cherry, cross cut it and the same thing happened. Gets to a certain point and then "poof"!


----------



## Penmonkey (Aug 3, 2007)

If the blanks are long enough to make a pen out of (I couldn't tell if they were or not from what you said) then it would be your problem if they are not turning like you want. Cross cut woods take sharp tools and slow cuts.


----------



## Stacker (Aug 3, 2007)

Well the blanks that went poof were 2.5- 3" in length.


----------



## Stacker (Aug 3, 2007)

> _Originally posted by Stacker_
> <br />Well the blanks that went poof were 2.5- 3" in length.


Besides I have over 1000 pens successfully turned under my belt.


----------



## mick (Aug 3, 2007)

I buy a lot of blanks off ebay and one thing i do is bid only on auctions which state, "the blanks shown are the ones you receive". Then if you get something other than shown you have a valid reason to contact the seller and try to resolve the situation. Another thing when dealing with folks on ebay is credibility. I've learned over the past 2 1/2 years which seller I can trust to represent their blanks truthfully. I think most here will agree that PoeticSoul is a very good ebay seller, quailty product and fast, very reasonable shipping. Dwain Coats(sp)is another great guy to deal with. He also sells under the name Spa City Woodworks. Dwain has some fantastic two tone Amboyna from time to time and I'm always on the lookout when he puts it up for sale. 
 Maybe with Jeff's permission we need to compile a list of ebay sellers and post it on the forum. Sellers that we've dealt with, have a positive relationship with and sellers with a high percentage of positive feedbacks...or simply great blanks!
What do you say Jeff?


----------



## doddman70 (Aug 3, 2007)

I have dealt with cook woods on 3 different occasions and have been extremly happy with them. each time i gave them a discription of what i wanted and was very happy with what i recieved and there customer service was awsome!!

Shane


----------



## wudnhed (Aug 3, 2007)

I do the same thing Mick does.  I only bid on auctions that explain the picture of these blanks is what you get.  Mick has also mentioned good Ebayers I have dealt with.  Since joining IAP I try to buy or barter from this site.....sometimes I just have to cruise Ebay[]


----------



## Brewmeister35 (Aug 3, 2007)

It's definitely tough to know what you're getting by a description without good pics.  I've had great dealings with both poetic soul and especially spacity.  Dwain is my favorite seller and always makes up (way more than enough) for anything gone wrong.


----------



## Texatdurango (Aug 3, 2007)

> _Originally posted by Stacker_
> <br />...My question is, shouldn't they have determined that the description was accurate BEFORE they shipped it?...


 Sorry to hear you're having a hard time with this order but after visiting their website and reading their description of this lot:

_"Size of most: 5" x 3/4" x 3/4" nominal 
Size of some: 2-1/4" x 3/4" square" _

It sounds like a pretty fair assesment of what I saw in the photos.



> _Originally posted by Stacker_
> <br />...I received the package yesterday through ups...Lots of amboyna burl shorts and lacewood,anyway to make a long story short, I came to the abrupt realization that this was a box of end cuts and cross cuts. Out of 40 blanks turned, 3 made it to the polish state...



I don't have 1,000 pens under my belt, no where near that number but I have turned a few dozen amboyna burl pens lately (my favorite wood), both "with the rays (eyes)" and "against the rays (eyes)" without one throw away blank.  

Of course, I have never tried 40 blanks in a day!  With the expedite shipping and turning 40 blanks in a day, it sounds like you are in a big hurry, could it be that you are in too big of a hurry and the time constraint pressure is causing you to be more aggresive with your cuts than normal? 

Often times, frustration causes strange reflexes.
George


----------



## wood-of-1kind (Aug 3, 2007)

I purchased some koa and lignum vitae pen blanks from the aforementioned company. No word of a lie they shipped me 'banana' shaped blanks. I complained and they replaced the defective blanks but I've refused to purchase from them any longer.Just my story here and is not meant as a complaint and certainly not an endorsement. Read it and buy it for what you are paying me for this response.

-Peter-[]


----------



## Randy_ (Aug 3, 2007)

According to eBay, that seller has a 99.2% rating on over 5000 auctions and has only had one negative feedback in the last month of 162 transactions.....yours.  That looks like a pretty good performance record to me.  

Obviously none of us have actually seen the wood; but the description on the auction was so generic that it is hard to see how they can be accused of an inaccurate description.

These guys seem to be reputable sellers.  It might have been prudent spend a little more time negotiating for an equatable solution to your dissatisfaction rather than posting a negative feedback only one day after receiving your order.


----------



## Stacker (Aug 3, 2007)

> _Originally posted by Texatdurango_
> <br />
> 
> 
> ...


Yes well I have 2 very busy sales people pounding the pavement and landed 2 very large retail chains. I have this down to an art. I can turn 5 high quality cigars in an hour, slim lines about the same. Today was the exception, close to the sanding stage "poof". 
I buy a lot of wood from guys like Al Kiebert at exotic woods and have never had a problem. Just cross cut blanks and I don't get along. (There's a plug for you Al ) By the way, how much cocbolo do you have on hand? 
Anyway I was trying to give you all a heads up, not looking for a pissing contest. 
Think I made my point. Go and enjoy the weekend!

Sincerely,

Rob


----------



## Ligget (Aug 4, 2007)

Rob what finish are you using on your high quality cigars?


----------



## Kalai (Aug 4, 2007)

Hi all, I have listened to stories about ebay sellers and it surprises me that they do some of these things, but they do, there are some sellers that can be hard to deal with and there can be good sellers too, you just need to look at the feedback, if there is over a hundred or so then you can get a good idea of what the seller is like, take the time to read the feedback because it will tell you a lot.  I sell on ebay and I would never do any of the things I hear about, I have over 1000 feedback and 100% pos. feedback, I sell what is in the picture and I guarantee satisfaction by replacement or refund, I got tons of Hawaiian woods, no joke tons, my truck holds 6 tons and our bandsaw mill cuts up to 28 inch dia. logs, I want to make good Hawaiian wood available to people outside Hawaii with out having to wonder if there is going to be a problem, but the only down side is I can only provide woods that grow in Hawaii, I wish Pink Ivorywood grew here, aloha from the Big Island of Hawaii.

Chris
Kalai


----------



## EeyorIs21 (Aug 4, 2007)

I have made many purchases on eBay. 

I read all the feedback carefully. I look to see if they have had repeat customers. 

My first order with a new seller is usually for less than $20-$30 before shipping. If the wood is bad or the description is inaccurate I am not out so much. If the wood is good I spend more the next time around.

I personally have never had a problem from an eBay seller that I have used.


----------



## Darley (Aug 4, 2007)

> _Originally posted by Stacker_
> <br />
> 
> 
> ...



Sorry but you might be "speedy gonzales" brother[], what do you mean by " high quality cigars " , I can tell you only this, in the first year of the IAP Lou ( DCBluesman )did a post with a pen made under 10 minutes, this is was from an raw blank, drilling, glueing, turning and finishing, that make 6 pens in 1 hour, congratulation to you but you just have to do 2 more pens to beat Lou in is pen making contest.

Sorry I'm been sarcastic here, no offence at you, but you should slow down and use sharp tools use the skew and round the edge of the blank before turning on belt sander.. the way the wood is cut got nothing to do with turning 

All good things take time


----------



## Ron in Drums PA (Aug 4, 2007)

$346.00! - What are you nuts?
I believe we have a case of buyer's remorse.

We are talking about wood here, Wood is wood, with all it's beauty and imperfections. If you are getting that many blow outs, you need to try something different,

Chalk this one up to operator error.


Edit in:

Did anyone else notice that this person ebay handle is furball060 with a a rating of -1?


----------



## GoodTurns (Aug 4, 2007)

I have purchased from CookWoods a couple of times.  Expensive, yes.  Great quality, yes.  Most cooperative people, no (combined shipping issue).  Satisfied customer, yes.


----------



## Rifleman1776 (Aug 4, 2007)

This is going to sound critical, but is meant to be a suggestion. Simply, don't buy wood. Sounds crazy but, fact is, with very little work and imagination, you can acquire a lot of nice wood without spending much money. It is the fine art of scrounging. My experience is that there is a lot of wood around. When people learn I have a shop, I often am given wood. Some might have ended up in the fireplace. Or older woodworkers who are retiring give it away. I have found wood waiting for the chipper after being cut by professional tree trimmers. I have cut some trees and traded that to others for what they have. But, the best blanks, and most fun acquiring, come from right here and at TPS. I'll mention that I have woods A-B- and C in excess. A forum friend in far-a-way locations will say, "I'll send you some X-Y-Z for your A-B-C." And a deal is made. And, if you still need certain woods and buying is the only option, do check the classifieds here and the other pen forums. Fine folks with fine woods at (often) very reasonable prices.


----------



## rhahnfl (Aug 4, 2007)

I have to agree with Frank. The people on this site are generous to a fault. With ideas/techniques and sharing resources like wood and hardware. We are very blessed to have such a great group going.


----------



## mdburn_em (Aug 4, 2007)

I've got to agree with Frank.  This thread had turned kinda ugly before his calm words came floating in.  I especially endorse his words from obtaining it from people on this forum.  Some of the best looking wood I've seen was right here.  

Maybe place an add in the classifieds for some of the stuff you find you can't use.  

I think that unless Rob posts more information about how he turns, we should hold off on the (veiled) accusations that he's doing it wrong.  And then only post opinions on his turning if he asks for it.


----------



## Rifleman1776 (Aug 4, 2007)

Me? Calm words? [:0] Uh-Oh! Must be slipping in my old age, I have a reputation to uphold. []
Thanks guys. []


----------



## IPD_Mrs (Aug 4, 2007)

Ron in PA nailed it on the head.  The buyer has a -1 feedback.  I have less than 100 pens under my belt and have yet to have a blow out in anything I have turned.  I have even done black palm in slim line and bottle stoppers as well as dakota blanks (sunflower hulls).  I don't have blow outs when I drill either.  Why?  I take my time and the wife takes twice as much time as me.  While I am sure I could set up a production and do 4-6 "cigars" in an hour, they would not be a quality product that I would put my name on and sell.  I am sure there are tricks to the trade to speed things along, but a CA finish on a straight slim line should take you 15 minutes if you take all of the steps.  Actually it takes me longer now that someone talked me into wetting my MM.[)]  I was taught long ago quality not quantity.

Frank I love your posts.  You are a brutally honest man![]


----------



## exoticwo (Aug 4, 2007)

Hello Rob,

 Sorry to read about your troubles with another vendor. Also glad to hear it wasn't me![8D] As for the Cocobolo, I have very large amount of 3/4 qtr sq. blanks and can cut a bunch larger (7/8 or 1 in. sq.) if thats what you need.


----------



## Stacker (Aug 4, 2007)

I had a buddy come over last night and he put the problem in a better perspective. The blanks are totally encased in wax, no moisture can escape, turning the wax off, the humidity drew out the moisture cracking the wood and causing the blank to blow away. 

I was not bragging about 5 blanks an hour, merely defending myself. I live by the motto, get good the get fast. As soon as my website is complete I'll post it here and you can see the photos of my pens. 

I'll be nipping the ends off of every blank in the box today, that should solve this problem.
Perhaps the vendor in question could select a better Public Relations person to handle the complaints.


----------



## Stacker (Aug 4, 2007)

> _Originally posted by Stacker_
> <br />I had a buddy come over last night and he put the problem in a better perspective. The blanks are totally encased in wax, no moisture can escape, turning the wax off, the humidity drew out the moisture cracking the wood and causing the blank to blow away.
> 
> I was not bragging about 5 blanks an hour, merely defending myself. I live by the motto, get good the get fast. As soon as my website is complete I'll post it here and you can see the photos of my pens.
> ...



Should have read, get good then get fast.
I spend close to $5000. a month on pen kits and wood.


----------



## Texatdurango (Aug 4, 2007)

> _Originally posted by Stacker_
> <br />...I spend close to $5000. a month on pen kits and wood.



Rob, I would be the last one in the world to tell you how to run your business but based on what you have said, I do have one observation and one suggestion.

If I were going through that many kits and blanks per month, I think I would get more regimented with my supply chain.  For starters I would get with one of the folks here like Nolan or Ed, Tuba or exotic who sell lots of blanks and who would probably cut you some good "quantity" deals while providing reliable, trusted service so you won't have to waste your time searching through Ebay trying to find some good deals at the witching hour then paying through the nose for expedite shipping.

This is intended as a friendly suggestion, I hope you take it as such.

George


----------



## exoticwo (Aug 4, 2007)

Exotic who??


----------



## Nolan (Aug 4, 2007)

> _Originally posted by Stacker_
> I spend close to $5000. a month on pen kits and wood.



You really should buy from me then!! []


----------



## Stacker (Aug 4, 2007)

> _Originally posted by Texatdurango_
> <br />
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for the suggestion, normally I don't buy anything from Ebay. 
Al at exotic woods is 1 of the best suppliers by far so far, he's quick and VERY reliable and always throws in something extra. I will be seeking out more suppliers from these forums as time goes on. I will start to post on the classifieds more often when I am seeking specific blanks. I'm only interested in wood blanks though, don't care for acrylics. 
some one mentioned a belt sander earlier, I personally don't use one, I have state of the art equipment. Although I still have trouble drilling Ziricote.


----------



## Randy_ (Aug 4, 2007)

> _Originally posted by Stacker_
> <br />.....Besides I have over <b>1000 pens successfully turned</b> under my belt......I spend close to $5000 a month on pen kits and wood.....



In those quantities, you should probably be able to get a cigar kit and blank for about $5 which means $5000 worth of materials is about a thousand pens or approximately 50 pens per day for a 5 day work week.  Do you use a duplicator??    

I make pens for fun.  That doesn't sound like fun to me!!    

P.S.  If you are making that many pens per month, it would seem that you should be claiming to have many thousands of pens turned successfully.


----------



## Ron in Drums PA (Aug 4, 2007)

> _Originally posted by Stacker_
> <br />I had a buddy come over last night and he put the problem in a better perspective. The blanks are totally encased in wax, no moisture can escape, turning the wax off, the humidity drew out the moisture cracking the wood and causing the blank to blow away.



Well Yeah.



> I spend close to $5000. a month on pen kits and wood.



And you don't know about green wood? 
And you are selling pens made from green wood?



> I'll be nipping the ends off of every blank in the box today, that should solve this problem.



Do that and you will ruin the rest of them. You want to leave the wax on the end grain, then wait 6 months to a year.



> Perhaps the vendor in question could select a better Public Relations person to handle the complaints.



The customer is NOT always right. 
Like I said "Chalk this up to customer error."

(I was going to use a different word instead of error)


----------



## Dario (Aug 4, 2007)

> _Originally posted by Stacker_
> I spend close to $5000. a month on pen kits and wood.



For how many months?  If you only turned a thousand...you must have a lot more stash than me (and I am a "collector" [:I]).

I agree with Ron...I would assume that you should know about green wood by now with that much experience.  That said, I can turn wood, cross cut or not and not blow up [] though I haven't turned nearly as much as you did.

I also agree that you should check the sellers here, they offer the best value in my experience.


----------



## Ligget (Aug 4, 2007)

I still want to know what finish you are putting on your quality cigars![]


----------



## Stacker (Aug 4, 2007)

> _Originally posted by Dario_
> <br />
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Stacker (Aug 4, 2007)

> _Originally posted by n4631x_
> <br />
> 
> 
> ...


what have you got Nolan? []


----------



## RPM (Aug 4, 2007)

Which Cooks Wood is this.  Is this just an ebay handle or is it the Cooks Woods in Klamath Oregon?
Richard


----------



## Randy_ (Aug 4, 2007)

This eBay seller lists their location as Klamath Falls, OR, United States.  Draw your own conclusions.


----------



## Stacker (Aug 4, 2007)

You know I didn't even consider the wood being green... I assumed it was ready to cut, their ad said nothing about green wood. 
I guess I've been spoiled by dry wood deliveries. I never would have bid on green wood, I don't have the space for drying it!


----------



## RPM (Aug 4, 2007)

This just seems strange to me that an outfit like this is going to be deliberately misrepresenting their product.  I have had no dealings with them, but they were listed as an exhibitor at the AAW Symposium in Portland.  They seem to be a fairly big operator.  Could this be just a communication issue?

http://www.cookwoods.com/

I'm going to Oregon on vacation next week and planned to stop by here because of the AAW affiliation, their website and its on my route.  I hate to see a reputable dealer get slammed if they don't deserve it.

Again, I don't know if they are on the up and up or not.  It just doesn't pass the smell test to me if they are operating at this scale and they are dealing with the AAW.  Maybe I'm too trusting.
Richard


----------



## winpooh498 (Aug 5, 2007)

We are from Oregon, and have dealt with Cook Woods several times.  We met them personally at the AAW in Portland.  Every time we have called they have been VERY helpful and nice to work with.  Also they are the biggest lumber supplier to most of the wood working stores and furniture makers in the state, possibly the whole northwest.  I know for a fact they supply most of the wood that our local Wood Craft sells.  We have also talked with other store owners that deal with them and everyone has been very happy.
One thing that I will say is that no matter how good a supplier is, nobody CAN please everyone, every time. I am sure that there is someone, somewhere that can something bad about every supplier out there. 
But remember that attitude makes a big difference! (I have learned that the hard way! [:I])

Just my thoughts on the issue!
Dawn


----------



## Stacker (Aug 5, 2007)

As far as I'm concerned this is a dead issue.[8D]


----------



## Ron in Drums PA (Aug 5, 2007)

I guess you didn't get your way Stacker


----------



## Nolan (Aug 5, 2007)

I have Amboyna(4.00 Each), red and brown mallee(2.50 Each), yellow box(2.50 Each), red river gum(2.00 Each), black ash burl(3.00 Each), bubinga (sap(2.00 Each) & heart(3.00 Each) and two tone(5.00 Each)), walnut burl(1.00 Each), Taz burl(2.00 Each), Coolabah(3.00 Each) Rosewood burl 6.00 Each. And probably a few I forgot to mention. Also I have a new load coming in on the 14th from AU. It will contain a new Mallee burl specie just named, yellow box burl, grey box burl, red box burl, Iron bark burl and some more red mallee burl. And a bunch I probably forgot to mention. If you check in classifieds anything, I have sold before I generally keep on hand.


----------



## DocStram (Aug 5, 2007)

> _Originally posted by n4631x_
> <br />I have Amboyna(4.00 Each), red and brown mallee(2.50 Each), yellow box(2.50 Each), red river gum(2.00 Each), black ash burl(3.00 Each), bubinga (sap(2.00 Each) & heart(3.00 Each) and two tone(5.00 Each)), walnut burl(1.00 Each), Taz burl(2.00 Each), Coolabah(3.00 Each) Rosewood burl 6.00 Each. And probably a few I forgot to mention. Also I have a new load coming in on the 14th from AU. It will contain a new Mallee burl specie just named, yellow box burl, grey box burl, red box burl, Iron bark burl and some more red mallee burl. And a bunch I probably forgot to mention. If you check in classifieds anything, I have sold before I generally keep on hand.



..... and Nolan has a 100% positive rating.


----------



## gerryr (Aug 6, 2007)

This sounds more like a case of seller beware.


----------



## mbellek (Aug 6, 2007)

I have not read anything buy the original post and the few below it, so I don't know if this has already been said, but you are able to file with ebay/paypal if the seller is unwilling to refund. It's called "severely not as described" I believe... If you search that under "Help" you should find some useful info. 

Also, for your own protection as far as ebay goes, they have a policy against what they call "transaction interference"... I don't know if posting specifics about an ebay auction _here_ would count toward that, or if that seller would ever have a reason to be on here to see it... But it may be possible that the seller could argue that you are discouraging other potential customers here or something like that. I only add this last part because woodturning/penturning seems to be a pretty small community. I'm sure it's an unlikely event, anyway.


----------



## mbellek (Aug 6, 2007)

Oh yeah and when it comes to eBay, always look at a seller's feedback CAREFULLY... 

www.toolhaus.org 

This is a website where you can type in the seller's name (any member ID for that matter) and it will pull up every negative and neutral feedback the seller has EVER had. It's really useful with large volume sellers because they might get 10 or 15 feedbacks in a day, so if you want to find one that was left this month, that's a lot to look through!! 

Also, a high-volume seller might have 99.8% positive feedback, but still have a lot of negative feedback. There have been many times after reading the specifics of what the neg feedbacks have to say, I have changed my mind about bidding.


----------

