# Whats happening to the IAP???



## LandfillLumber (Nov 14, 2010)

Not community driven like it use to be,don't get me wrong I see so many great things done by members for other members.Several things have not made me happy with the IAP in the last year so I'm venting a little.Victor


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## mredburn (Nov 14, 2010)

All groups evolve and change. There are a ton of new members, some of the older members have went different ways.


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## steeler fan1 (Nov 14, 2010)

Don't know what's happening Victor. Just doesn't feel quite right, sad.

Carl


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## IPD_Mrs (Nov 14, 2010)

Some of the older members are still around! But careful how we frame "older" don't want to have to answer to "some" of those that helped create dirt! :devil: :tongue::laugh:

Linda


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## tbroye (Nov 14, 2010)

You gotta a problem with dirt?  Kids think I am older than dirt.


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## bitshird (Nov 14, 2010)

Victor I think it some stupid crap they call progress, why it was necessary befuddles me, but you're right it isn't the same community driven group it used to be. and like you I miss it a lot


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## jeff (Nov 14, 2010)

Not 'community driven'? How about sending me a PM with specifics. Help identify the specific problems and let's work on fixing them!


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## maxwell_smart007 (Nov 14, 2010)

I urge you to take up Jeff's offer - if you can help figure out what's changed, if you think something's changed, then maybe Jeff can fix it. 

Personally, I think the IAP is as community driven as ever - and I know this from personal example.  Some of the most generous people in the world reside on this forum, and I think that posts like these sell them short.  

So thank you to everyone that makes the IAP great, and if you disagree that it's great, let's figure out how to fix it!


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## Rmartin (Nov 14, 2010)

It is what it is; the most comprehensive pen making site on the internet. Frankly, I'm a little tired of these posts that pop up every week about how things aren't the same as the used to be.


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## KenV (Nov 14, 2010)

Hey -- none of us are the same as we used to be, and that adds to the difficulty of perspective.   You wake up one morning and find you are one of the old guys --


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## bensoelberg (Nov 14, 2010)

Rmartin said:


> It is what it is; the most comprehensive pen making site on the internet. Frankly, I'm a little tired of these posts that pop up every week about how things aren't the same as the used to be.



I've got to agree.  I'm new here, only been around for a few months, but this is already my favorite website. I haven't said much, but every question I've ever asked has been answered quickly and with plenty of courtesy. I've taken advantage of some fabulous offers  by members and seen many of you send stuff to complete strangers for free. It may have been "better" before, (I'll never understand how) but I think it's pretty fantastic now.


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## Smitty37 (Nov 14, 2010)

*Bigger....*

I suspect most of the complaints harken back to a time when there were a lot fewer members.  But, I think the statement that it isn't community driven is just wrong.  

I have yet to see someone ask for assistance and not get at least some attempts to help.  And that includes things well beyond pen turning help.  

People need materials, somebody sends them some, people have illnesses somebody prays for them and sends well wishes.  A death in the family sympathetic condolances come from all over the world.

Certainly there are some debates...in any large organization there will be.  Certainly there will be a lot of divergent interests...that too is normal for a large organization.  But still this is as "community driven" as any organization I've been around.  

And that is from one who has his share of differences of opinion (some expressed some not) with management.


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## bruce119 (Nov 14, 2010)

I don't think we need all these threads on how to fix it and changes. Heck it is/was fine why fix what ant broke. There's always going to be bumps in the road just ride them out. I think we just keep on doing what we been doing. Just give the members some guidance and show them this is a community to keep the tradition going. There's always going to be complaints and disagreements. I think the moderation was fine just deal with it behind the seines. I don't think these threads on how to run the forum is healthy I understand the moderators want to be fair. But I think it would be best if you guys just did your thing in the back room. And if some dust kicks up just sit back and let it settle.

The forum is just fine I think all these threads on how to change rules and make it better is just hindering and string up the mud for lack of a better word.

Just my thoughts and it's late for me and I am not thinking clearly so take that into consideration.
.


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## AKPenTurner (Nov 15, 2010)

I'd have to agree with most of you folks...  The IAP is a great place (I've only been here a few months). Frankly, I agree with Jeff. Let's work together and make it better!!


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## marter1229 (Nov 15, 2010)

What is community driven mean?

Terry


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## Dave_M (Nov 15, 2010)

Gotta agree with you on every point there Bruce.  




bruce119 said:


> I don't think we need all these threads on how to fix it and changes. Heck it is/was fine why fix what ant broke. There's always going to be bumps in the road just ride them out. I think we just keep on doing what we been doing. Just give the members some guidance and show them this is a community to keep the tradition going. There's always going to be complaints and disagreements. I think the moderation was fine just deal with it behind the seines. I don't think these threads on how to run the forum is healthy I understand the moderators want to be fair. But I think it would be best if you guys just did your thing in the back room. And if some dust kicks up just sit back and let it settle.
> 
> The forum is just fine I think all these threads on how to change rules and make it better is just hindering and string up the mud for lack of a better word.
> 
> ...


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## workinforwood (Nov 15, 2010)

I don't understand what this post is about and what the purpose of it is.  All I see is a sentence that does not explain itself in any way, and thus can be interpreted in a million ways.  I hope it was not meant to be, but the way it is written becomes a lets stir up some **** thread.


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## traderdon55 (Nov 15, 2010)

workinforwood said:


> I don't understand what this post is about and what the purpose of it is.  All I see is a sentence that does not explain itself in any way, and thus can be interpreted in a million ways.  I hope it was not meant to be, but the way it is written becomes a lets stir up some **** thread.



I have to agree with Jeff on this. Victor, instead of a general sentence like this to me the best way to vent is just say what it is that is that is bothering you so much. I have been on IAP for a while and have seen a lot of changes but that is to be expected as a site grows and evolves. If there are specific problems Jeff and the moderaters are happy to address them but they have to know what they are. Even though there may be a few little problems I think most members on here would agree with me that this is one of the best forums around!!


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## Jon-wx5nco (Nov 15, 2010)

KenV said:


> Hey -- none of us are the same as we used to be, and that adds to the difficulty of perspective. You wake up one morning and find you are one of the old guys --


 
I agree whole heartedly with this post.  At this time last year, I hadn't made my first pen yet.  While some may not find the forum to be the same as it use to be, I still find it to be invaluable.


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## lazylathe (Nov 15, 2010)

I'm pretty new around here, about a year or so.
First joined another site and spent most of my time there because most of the stuff posted was "Close to home" in distance.

Got a bit tired of some attitudes and i am here 99% of the time now!

Every forum has it's ups and downs and we have to learn to live with them.
To me this is a great place with a HUGE member base.
Ups and downs are bound to happen but i find they are kept to a minimum here.

And if there is a debate, i will only say something if i think it is worth saying. Most of the times i do not comment because i do not know the whole story...

For me this is a great place to call HOME!

Andrew


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## LandfillLumber (Nov 15, 2010)

All the posts about this being bad to the IAP(my post)is part of whats wrong with the IAP.Look at the different posts some say how negative I'm being, some agree,yet some want me to air out all the issues in a post HMM.So was it a bad post not all if gets people thinking then it is what it is.And stirring up s-it is not my way anyone that knows me a little knows I'm as laid back as they come.Its also interesting that I got PM's agreeing with me,but they did not want to post it for everyone to see yet not one PM disagreeing with me they all want to bash the post public(HMM),this says something else about the site as well.If I had all the answers I would not have titled the post"What is happening to the IAP",it seems to be more of a mood in the forum then one or two computer changes.Sorry you guys think I'm bashing the IAP,but I used to look forward to getting on in the mourning and know its just part on my routine.I can't believe that people think this is a bad post stirring up junk,so we should shut up and just let things happen(that's great advice guys,lol).Sorry this is my opinion and it should be respected as I would respect anyone else.Another funny thing is its stated as more of a question not pointing out how to change rules and so on.Sorry to anyone that disagrees with me,Victor


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## Craftdiggity (Nov 15, 2010)

I would like to know exactly how it "used to be."  What is so different now that makes the forum such a disaster?  These detail-LESS posts complaining about some unnamed problems can't be helping to create this "community driven" utopia some people seem to be looking for.

Is it possible that we're overthinking this?  

Why can't it just be a forum where a bunch of pen makers get together and discuss pens and pen making?


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## Mark (Nov 15, 2010)

LandfillLumber said:


> Not community driven like it use to be,don't get me wrong I see so many great things done by members for other members.Several things have not made me happy with the IAP in the last year so I'm venting a little.Victor



Victor, IMHO I don't think people are harping on you specifically. I think a lot of it is that the original post was very open ended. Mentioned, were "several things that bothered you", but everyone is just guessing what you mean.

I'm not saying the forum doesn't change. I've been on the Internet since 1987, when everything was still newsgroups. Then forums evolved, then blogs. The entire Internet is still growing and changing. Likewise the IAP will grow and change. There have been a bunch of posts/threads that seem to say the same thing. I'm certain that Jeff and his crew will do what they can to correct any issues, but I also think we need to give them specifics in order to narrow down what is causing people the concern.


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## snyiper (Nov 15, 2010)

I think the point of the post was meant to asses the mood or tone. I can not attest one way or another, being here just a year I have not seen the mood change much. I think the Forum is great I think in my year here as a guest there has been some shaky or shady things but only a couple. I didn’t take Victors post as negative but as a feeling with him things have changed and they have. I bet if Jeff were to post the numbers of new people that joined for the last 5 years, year by year you would see the influx of new people cultures and ideas as well as ages. I think the apple cart was upset with the new influx of people with in the last couple of years....Not bad just a change.


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## renowb (Nov 15, 2010)

LandfillLumber said:


> Not community driven like it use to be,don't get me wrong I see so many great things done by members for other members.Several things have not made me happy with the IAP in the last year so I'm venting a little.Victor


 
I think this is a broad statement. It opens up a can of worms, leaving people scratching their heads of to what brought this up.

Like the other members are saying, what caused this? Maybe we can fix it or not, but I know I come here for comraderie and information. The IAP is full of very helpful people.


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## PTownSubbie (Nov 15, 2010)

LandfillLumber said:


> All the posts about this being bad to the IAP(my post)is part of whats wrong with the IAP.Look at the different posts some say how negative I'm being, some agree,yet some want me to air out all the issues in a post HMM.So was it a bad post not all if gets people thinking then it is what it is.And stirring up s-it is not my way anyone that knows me a little knows I'm as laid back as they come.Its also interesting that I got PM's agreeing with me,but they did not want to post it for everyone to see yet not one PM disagreeing with me they all want to bash the post public(HMM),this says something else about the site as well.If I had all the answers I would not have titled the post"What is happening to the IAP",it seems to be more of a mood in the forum then one or two computer changes.Sorry you guys think I'm bashing the IAP,but I used to look forward to getting on in the mourning and know its just part on my routine.I can't believe that people think this is a bad post stirring up junk,so we should shut up and just let things happen(that's great advice guys,lol).Sorry this is my opinion and it should be respected as I would respect anyone else.Another funny thing is its stated as more of a question not pointing out how to change rules and so on.Sorry to anyone that disagrees with me,Victor


 
I normally try not to but I am going to post to this because it is eating at me.....

If people can't voice their opinion and only post to PM, then why even voice an opinion at all. This is the problem with people.....Too afraid to speak and try to point out problems? 

If a general statement cannot be backed up with fact, just like no pictures....didn't happen.....then no backing, must not be a problem.

I will agree with you to an extent though Victor. People have become thin skinned and every post bothers someone to some extent. That is because you can't read body language and reaction to what is being said.

We need more sharing and less bickering. That is one thing I have noticed as a change in the 18 months I have been here.


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## GoodTurns (Nov 15, 2010)

/RANT ON/ i guess I am an "old" member...been around a few years now, seen a few fights, a few changes and made more than a few friends (some still here, some not, some missed, some not!)  Wow...sounds like the neighborhood I live in!  It's a community.  It changes.  

The things that make a community great are the people and we have some very good ones here.  We also have some that may not make it onto anyone's Christmas list!  Learn to deal with it....use your IGNORE feature, IT WORKS AND IT HELPS!

With the recent bickering, I had to make a choice, give up or do my part to make it better.  I chose to try to make it better.  I am running a group buy (closed now, no you can't, sorry!).  I will try to run one every 5-6 months as my small contribution, not a ridiculous amount of effort, but will help out a bunch of folks a couple of times a year.  Find something you can do to help!  Doesn't have to be much, doesn't have to cost a cent.  Make an effort to make YOUR community better!  Consider it your cost of admission for some of the best information and education you can get for our chosen hobby/profession. /RANT OFF/


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## jeff (Nov 15, 2010)

LandfillLumber said:


> All the posts about this being bad to the IAP(my post)is part of whats wrong with the IAP.Look at the different posts some say how negative I'm being, some agree,yet some want me to air out all the issues in a post HMM.So was it a bad post not all if gets people thinking then it is what it is.And stirring up s-it is not my way anyone that knows me a little knows I'm as laid back as they come.Its also interesting that I got PM's agreeing with me,but they did not want to post it for everyone to see yet not one PM disagreeing with me they all want to bash the post public(HMM),this says something else about the site as well.If I had all the answers I would not have titled the post"What is happening to the IAP",it seems to be more of a mood in the forum then one or two computer changes.Sorry you guys think I'm bashing the IAP,but I used to look forward to getting on in the mourning and know its just part on my routine.I can't believe that people think this is a bad post stirring up junk,so we should shut up and just let things happen(that's great advice guys,lol).Sorry this is my opinion and it should be respected as I would respect anyone else.Another funny thing is its stated as more of a question not pointing out how to change rules and so on.Sorry to anyone that disagrees with me,Victor



It's not a "bad post", but it is ineffective. I often see these little bombs dropped; "this place isn't the same any more", or "what's changing", or "not community driven" or whatever. And then as you say a bunch of people agree via PM and grumble behind the scenes. How is that helpful? You said in your first post that you were just venting. How does this help? It's not helpful unless you're venting something specific, preferably with a recommended change or solution.

What would be more helpful is for people to offer specific issues we can work on. This vague, general complaining does not help one bit in keeping this a place that suits and serves the membership.


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## Jgrden (Nov 15, 2010)

I am just having fun in the right places and learning in the other places. There is something for everyone. I too have made enemies but have made MANY more friends. So this site pays off, real well. Friends and knowledge by sharing. 
And that is my message this morning, now out to the shop to turn some Paduka that was sent to me, without expecting anything in return, because I sent out a request for assistance. I am going to pay him back two-fold.


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## DCBluesman (Nov 15, 2010)

You bring up an interesting point, Victor, however, I do not think this malaise starts at the portal to the IAP.

There is a pervasive feeling of discomfort in the world today. In large part, it can be linked to the global economy, which is still in the midst of the longest running period of economic contaction since the end of World War II.

The contaction has been hard on many, but the uncertainty is far worse. Those who have not lost their jobs, fear they might. Those who have lost their jobs fear they may lose their savings. Thos who have lost their savings fear they may never recover economically.

Fear and uncertainty can be crippling. The sense of foreboding overwhelms the sense of hope. Negativism, even among optimists, taints our perspective. 

Fear and uncertainty magnify our differences. There is a perception that impactful events are felt greater by one than another. We become conditioned to the negative and, thus, see a negative even when none exists.

In my nearly 59 years on this earth, this is the longest lasting recession to hit the United States. Also, as a leading consuming nation, the depth and breadth of the recession worldwide has been impacted by the U. S. economy. 

I don't know if economic improvement is imminent or a bit further in the future, but I believe that a return to stable growth will usher in a knew era of cautious optimism. With the return of economic optimism, the malaise will pass and a return to a healthier outlook will prevail. This is truly where the IAP stood 4, 5 or 6 years ago.

I have hope for the forum and hope for the community which supports it.


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## bruce119 (Nov 15, 2010)

Like I said previously I think for the most part things are fine. There has been some recent flack but it will pass. Jeff, Curtis and the new moderators has done a great job. It is behind the seines and unknown and sadly unthanked but that is how it is and should be. I guess this is directed at the moderators you guys do a great job I know it's not easy but you have a passion for it. Keep it on the hidden moderators forum (don't know why I said that) and rule from from behind the seines. I have been in many clubs and forums and have held let's say management positions. When ever a, we'll say, moderator ask a question like how should we do this. Everyone has a different idea and opinion and the stuff usually flies. Most of the time it is better left inside the management circle.

This place is great just keep on doing what you been doing. Jeff, Curtis and now 2 others "The Team" has done a great job just keep on doing.

I think the forum is just fine the way it is NO CHANGES NEEDED

I probably strayed from the original topic but I lost track of what it was.

.


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## LandfillLumber (Nov 15, 2010)

I did not say what was bothering me as that would have got lots more posts then my simple statement.People would have offered even more opinions on what I dislike lately.I see many saying the same thing its something different but they are not exactly sure what it is,neither am I.Like I said its a mood I guess maybe it less laid back then it used to be and that bothers me???Oh well the IAP is not made or broke on ones opinion alone,and it should not be ignored either.And for everyone that says things change and evolve I'm aware of that please don't talk to people like they don't live in the real world,we all do.Thanks for listening to me,Victor


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## jeff (Nov 15, 2010)

LandfillLumber said:


> I did not say what was bothering me as that would have got lots more posts then my simple statement.People would have offered even more opinions on what I dislike lately.I see many saying the same thing its something different but they are not exactly sure what it is,neither am I.Like I said its a mood I guess maybe it less laid back then it used to be and that bothers me???Oh well the IAP is not made or broke on ones opinion alone,and it should not be ignored either.And for everyone that says things change and evolve I'm aware of that please don't talk to people like they don't live in the real world,we all do.Thanks for listening to me,Victor



OK, point taken. However, if something is bothering you and you don't want to post it, then PM me, or call me (440-829-1829). Just saying "I'm unhappy" doesn't improve the situation. It just causes people to opine and suppose what might be wrong, and argue with each other about what is good or bad or whatever.


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## tomas (Nov 15, 2010)

Many years ago, when I was a teenager, I played in a rock band. We were playing at a dance one night and from on the stage, I watched a guy walk across the dance floor and poke another guy in the mouth. All of a sudden there were 8-10 people all punching it out. However, the guy who started it all walked back across the dance floor and sat down to watch what he had started.


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## KenBrasier (Nov 15, 2010)

KenV said:


> Hey -- none of us are the same as we used to be, and that adds to the difficulty of perspective. *You wake* up one morning and find you are one of the old guys --


 
Ken, good point, I fully agree.  As long as we continue to wake up  morning Life Goes On.  And even with the changes, this is my favorite place to visit each day.

Jeff and the Moderators are going a great job and I for one really appreciate it.
:bananen_smilies104:


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## LEAP (Nov 15, 2010)

Maybe the question should be "What is right on the IAP?"

There are so many positives and wonderful people here that it is worth a little nuisance on occasion.  Let the management know what we like, what things are done well, our favorite forums and events. 

Personally I enjoy the show off your pens the most. I love looking at the work of the many talented artists here and watching the newcomers develop in their skills.  

I really liked Butch's challenge this summer. I did not have the time to participate but checked out the progress of all involved daily. 

I enjoyed the trashtalk section from the birthday bash and the good natured banter between the members. 

These are just a few of the things that make this the best forum on the web.


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## bruce119 (Nov 15, 2010)

You know I am self taught. In the beginning I didn't know a thing about pen turning. I was building fishing rods and got a lathe to do the handles and real seats. Then wile surfing the net I discovered this site and pen turning and was hooked. I never took a lesson from anyone never got advise from a face to face live person. Just about everything I learned about pen turning came from here. I am in debt to this site that is why I try to help anyone who asks. Every thing you need to know is rite here.
.


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## LandfillLumber (Nov 15, 2010)

tomas said:


> Many years ago, when I was a teenager, I played in a rock band. We were playing at a dance one night and from on the stage, I watched a guy walk across the dance floor and poke another guy in the mouth. All of a sudden there were 8-10 people all punching it out. However, the guy who started it all walked back across the dance floor and sat down to watch what he had started.



I have not backed down on my posts I have added more.This would not be my style,I would not start something and run as the post above is trying to say(or maybe I'm taking it wrong).If I had all the right answers then i would have posted them already.Its like society its not one rule/law that will make it all great and perfect its lots of tiny things that add up to something different.Sorry to any I have rubbed the wrong way and it seems a few of you anyways.But I must say that talking is the first step in solving anything,and people are talking,lol.Thanks for reading and posting,Victor


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## DurocShark (Nov 15, 2010)

tomas said:


> Many years ago, when I was a teenager, I played in a rock band. We were playing at a dance one night and from on the stage, I watched a guy walk across the dance floor and poke another guy in the mouth. All of a sudden there were 8-10 people all punching it out. However, the guy who started it all walked back across the dance floor and sat down to watch what he had started.




Hmmm... Sounds like a good time. Gotta try that.

:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:


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## ToddMR (Nov 15, 2010)

LandfillLumber said:


> tomas said:
> 
> 
> > Many years ago, when I was a teenager, I played in a rock band. We were playing at a dance one night and from on the stage, I watched a guy walk across the dance floor and poke another guy in the mouth. All of a sudden there were 8-10 people all punching it out. However, the guy who started it all walked back across the dance floor and sat down to watch what he had started.
> ...




Victor, I have just read this onslaught of posts, and no worries from me, you haven't rubbed me wrong at all.  I think we all get in a funk from time to time or see things differently.  It's part of what makes us all human.  I have been on here since April/May this year and I have had my ups & downs as much as the next person.  We all have opinions and some feel like sharing and some don't.  Neither should be scalded for either.  Sometimes though things can seem/feel like one thing but not really be it.  I am not dismissing what your initial thoughts are at all.  I myself have not been on a whole lot lately as I have been busy  going to the gym and also trying to get projects done for my first show ever.  Keep your chin up, and maybe take a break for a few days or a week.  Take some time for you, and maybe coming back refreshed is all you need.  I love the IAP, and value the input from a lot of members and I know I won't always agree, like, or understand everyone, but hey that's how communities work at large.

I hope you all have a good day and I look forward to seeing and learning more as my journey here continues on.

Take it easy all.


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## IPD_Mrs (Nov 15, 2010)

DCBluesman said:


> You bring up an interesting point, Victor, however, I do not think this malaise starts at the portal to the IAP.
> 
> There is a pervasive feeling of discomfort in the world today. In large part, it can be linked to the global economy, which is still in the midst of the longest running period of economic contaction since the end of World War II.
> 
> ...


 

Wow Lou I thought all the political ads were over on the 2nd.  Sounds like you are running for state treasurer.  :biggrin:

A couple of years ago there was a group on here that was pretty close and had a lot of fun tossing zingers around.  Some of those people are still here and some are not.  It is no different than your local pub or bowling league.  They are not the same as they were two years ago.  Why because with the influx of people and the loss of old timers the chemistry changes and so does the feel of the community.  That is life folks it is nothing that is right or wong about the forum.


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## Padre (Nov 15, 2010)

I am not an "old" member, not being here quite a year yet.  But I too see a change in the vein that Victor is talking about.  I couldn't put it into words until just now, when I was looking, for the last time probably, at the MVV forum.

I think the MVV forum represented one of the really good things about IAP.  It celebrated the 'us' of IAP.  It elevated some of 'us' to a place where other penmakers/penturners could turn to and have a sense of peace of mind about quality, customer service and friendliness.  As far as I know, we are losing that.  To see Ed, Mike and Gary posting 'goodbye' posts is really sad. 

Jeff, you wanted examples, here's one:  I am a BIG fan of exotics but I am not a fan of Facebook, so I am losing that instant connection to those I purchased most from. Same with Gary Max, MLK, Resinsavers (Charlie, I miss you!) and so on.  

Some may say, no big deal, just log onto the exotics website and check out the 'what's new' section.  Not hard, but it sure was nice to see it here while browsing other articles.

Now, I do not know what the changes are to MVV, and they may be for the better.  But to me it is one example of the 'community' changing.

Also, when I was an active priest, when someone stopped coming to church, I often called them or called on them to see what had happened.  I also encouraged other church members to call their friends that they no longer saw coming.  How many of us send out an email or PM to those who we miss?  How many of us send out communications to those 'old timers' who taught us so much?  That's part of 'community' as well.


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## maxwell_smart007 (Nov 15, 2010)

Chip, MVV isn't even two years old, so it's a rather new subforum.  Given that the vendors from MVV can post in Business Classifieds, nothing's really changing in that regard...the farewell posts aren't really goodbye for good, after all....


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## ed4copies (Nov 15, 2010)

Chip, and others,

"Change" is always difficult for old farts.  So, I plead "guilty" to over-reacting to this one.  I liked being "Most Valued", but I understand the need for change, in this case.

So, we move on.  Yes, Exotics does have an ad in Woodturning Design this quarter.  Yes, we will be expanding our presence on Facebook, where we can "discourse" with our customers and friends.  But we will also be keeping you as informed as possible in the "Business Classifieds".

Jeff and Curtis are restructuring, but right now, Exotics will continue to inform you and all other IAP members, while conforming to the rules of the "Business Classified" forum.

Sorry you, and many others don't like Facebook---if you have other suggestions, PLEASE PM me!!!!!   I will explore EVERY avenue anyone presents.  We established Exotics as a response to suggestions from IAP members, we will certainly not abandon this forum!!

Working on a concept that I think will bring some of the "old fire" back to the IAP.  Should be "ready for prime time" in Thanksgiving week.  Get on our mailing list for more "clues".

Ed


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## DurocShark (Nov 15, 2010)

Oh goodie, another mailing list...


:tongue:


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## ed4copies (Nov 15, 2010)

DurocShark said:


> Oh goodie, another mailing list...
> 
> 
> :tongue:



Hey, I TRIED to avoid it!!!:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:


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## Padre (Nov 15, 2010)

maxwell_smart007 said:


> Chip, MVV isn't even two years old, so it's a rather new subforum.  Given that the vendors from MVV can post in Business Classifieds, nothing's really changing in that regard...the farewell posts aren't really goodbye for good, after all....



It may be only two years old, but at the same time for me and many others on the site, it has 'always been there.'  

It is a concrete example of how the community is changing.  Now, I am not one of those who say all change is bad, far from it.  One of the jokes in church was always "how many people does it take to change a light bulb in church?" and the answer is "change????!!!!!! What change!!!!????  My grandmother gave that light bulb!!!!"

But I also have learned that "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" is a really wise saying too.


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## Padre (Nov 15, 2010)

ed4copies said:


> Chip, and others,
> 
> Get on our mailing list for more "clues".
> 
> Ed


I'm on it but never get one.


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## bitshird (Nov 15, 2010)

bitshird said:


> Victor I think it some stupid crap they call progress, why it was necessary befuddles me, but you're right it isn't the same community driven group it used to be. and like you I miss it a lot



I find that I miss spoke last night, in one way I did, and in another I didn't! While the IAP is still a community group, it's a completely different group than when I joined. and as KenV said we suddenly wake up and we are the old guys. Personally I'm not a great lover of Progress, I have seen what Progress has done to places I used to love, places like Southern California in the 1950s , it was pretty much a paradise, same thing with Las Vegas Nevada in the late 50S and early 1960 S But the whole stinking world has changed, and I suppose I should just bend over and accept it, but I'd rather not,.The IAP is still a great place and as far as a group, compare this to the Yahoo group, They weren't allowed to thank the people that helped make it a free country. I seriously doubt if I'll go back to that site again. We are a community just a very large one that looks and feels different than it did 3-1/2 years ago. I'm glad to see a lot of new young blood here perhaps they can help old farts like me understand things better. But I do wish some of the folks that have left would come back,but I've even noticed that they have quit posting on other forums, ostensibly for the same reasons they stopped posting here,  so I guess since we don't stand a snowballs chance in Death Valley in July of them coming back some of us, including me are just going to have to grow up get over it or take a long walk on a short pier. So Jeff and Andrew the only thing wrong is me, and just remember you can't fix stupid!!!


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## ed4copies (Nov 15, 2010)

maxwell_smart007 said:


> Chip, MVV isn't even two years old, so it's a rather new subforum.  Given that the vendors from MVV can post in Business Classifieds, nothing's really changing in that regard...the farewell posts aren't really goodbye for good, after all....



Actually, February 1 of 2008 is 33 months, but who's counting???


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## workinforwood (Nov 15, 2010)

ed4copies said:


> Working on a concept that I think will bring some of the "old fire" back to the IAP.  Should be "ready for prime time" in Thanksgiving week.  Get on our mailing list for more "clues".
> 
> Ed



I think the clues are obvious just in that one sentence.  We all better put on our gas masks and hide the beer! :biggrin:


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## kludge77 (Nov 15, 2010)

I just read this whole thread and am completely confused. 

I personally love it here. I post on another turning forum where pens are frowned upon as unimpressive. I like coming here everyday and seeing the flood of creative ideas. New people, new pens, new ideas.

The notion that all the original members are going to want to turn pens for 6 or 7 years is a bit far fetched. I think it's great a number of you have been at it that long! This site was born to change. There is  just no way it wouldn't.


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## Seer (Nov 15, 2010)

workinforwood said:


> ed4copies said:
> 
> 
> > Working on a concept that I think will bring some of the "old fire" back to the IAP. Should be "ready for prime time" in Thanksgiving week. Get on our mailing list for more "clues".
> ...


 
And pickled eggs :laugh:


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## Rojo22 (Nov 15, 2010)

It is different around here.  The mix of people are different, changes have happened to the way we get our kits, our material and the way we turn.  Thats life.  I still like stopping in and reading some of the stuff posted, and encouraging others, but do not post as much as I used to.  I still think this is the most valuable site on the net for craftsmen (craftspeople for the PC police) to come and see other ideas and thought provoking challenges to stretch even the most advanced of us.  I am not here on the site for the same things I was 3 years ago.  I know most of you think I am slow, but even I have made progress over 3 years...LOL.....I just think that some of the "old" style got lost, and sometimes I think for some on the site that is a good thing, for those of us old insensitive folks we just have to consider the filter BEFORE we post.....LOL.....

Having been around for a while, I miss some of the "poking in the eye" way of things, but I dont miss the way some folks took it personally.  Those who know me, know I like to be irreverent, but too many people these days have allergies to insensitive remarks and love to be PC martyrs.  Like momma says "If you dont have something nice to say.....well dont say nothing". Queue the crickets......

Jeff does a great job here.  I have had my rubs with some of the way things have been moderated, but like I said, things are different now.......Some of us may need filtering.....


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## jttheclockman (Nov 15, 2010)

ed4copies said:


> Chip, and others,
> 
> "Change" is always difficult for old farts. So, I plead "guilty" to over-reacting to this one. I liked being "Most Valued", but I understand the need for change, in this case.
> 
> ...


 

Ed I do not know where to put this but maybe I should have PMed you but again you announce another avenue to sell your wares. May I make a suggestion before you do all this advertising and you want to get big with alot of exposure you need to put forth more of the products you are selling. You can't advertise a product and have a small amount of them available and then keep adding to your customer base. It does not make good business sense if someone has to keep waiting for products to appear that you advertise. If the product is not available I suggest pulling it from advertising. You may want to work on a first come first served basis but I think this is not fair. I realized now this takes capital and lots of it but you are the one trying to stretch yourself out.

Now this is just an observation so please do not take it any other way. Your name gets mentioned an awful lot here and alot of us have bought from you and want to continue but be careful of expansion. It can eat you up also.


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## ed4copies (Nov 15, 2010)

_I realized now this takes capital and lots of it but you are the one trying to stretch yourself out._

John, to the best of our ability, Dawn and I will provide the products our customers request, as well as the hand-made products our partners provide.

(to put this in perspective, there are nearly 4000 products in the current database---they will not ALL be in stock EVER)


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## EBorraga (Nov 15, 2010)

bitshird said:


> bitshird said:
> 
> 
> > I'm glad to see a lot of new young blood here perhaps they can help old farts like me understand things better.
> ...


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## Pete275 (Nov 15, 2010)

I've been turning pens for about 2 and a half years and found IAP about 2 years ago. I only recently joined as I thought I should quietly learn from all of the talented people on this site. I have and continue to see IAP as an invaluable forum for those of us that enjoy turning pens and other things. I don't post much yet but I will as my skills get better however I always spend at least 30 mins a day on IAP for both the purpose of learning and for entertainment. I know if it suddenly wasn't here I really would miss this place. As for the older members, you guys are kind of the backbone of the site and I hope those that are still around will stay and that those that have left will someday return. To Jeff and all the moderators I have to say keep up the good work.


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## ctubbs (Nov 15, 2010)

Seer said:


> workinforwood said:
> 
> 
> > ed4copies said:
> ...


And do not forget the pickled pigs feet, a must have for good 'GAS'.:wink:

On  a more serious note, I have worked around animals most of my life so far and the one thing that is always there with them;  They feel what we are feeling.  If we are afraid, then so are they, if we are confident, then they are calm.  Amazingly, people are much that same way.  When fear is pervasive, then it lingers just below the surface of the whole, not just indivduals.  Right now fear is prevelant throughout the world and, wheather or not we want to admit it, we are affected by this fear.

It is a proven fact that if we smile, out body releases endorphens that make us feel better.  We do not have to be happy to smile, just do it.  You will feel the difference.  I promous.  Will a smile solve the world's problems?  Of course not, but we will each feel better afterwards.

Love yourself and spread the love to everyone else.  Here is mine:biggrin:
Charles


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## bitshird (Nov 15, 2010)

EBorraga said:


> bitshird said:
> 
> 
> > bitshird said:
> ...


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## robutacion (Nov 15, 2010)

Geez, here we go again...!

The way I see it is, "Casual Conversation" should not (ever) appear on the "New Posts" list, this has been causing more troubles when its worth, why...??? every time I log on to IAP (first thing in the morning) and check things out, I many many of us go straight to the "New Posts" option, this is in my view a simple way to keep tabs on new and recent stuff without having to jump from topic to topic.

Generally the titles of the threads will determine our decision to open and see what is all about, these some choice system applies to titles that we feel are political or controversial and that, WE (those who apply...!) would not go and look for them specifically, we either had the gut full of them or just don't like to do through the emotions one can get by getting involved in a argument or by simply reading things that normally (more often than not) endup upsetting us and put us in a bad mood for the rest of the day.

It would be very silly and totally nonsense to claim, none of that "stuff" will affect us...! doesn't work like that, and you should know better...! With this said, MOST of the offensive words and thoughts expressed in posts are the result of that "mood" someone put us on, and I just don't believe that someone can be so thick skinned that would completely and totally be unaffected by being offended or being "walked" on, HUMANS do not have that capability, period...!

So, do I believe "Casual Conversation" topic which basically means to some, "right to shoot to kill" should be allowed on IAP, absolutely not. There are many other forums out there that "specialize" on those matters/issues, and that's where people should go...!  Unfortunately for many of us, these type threads are basically thrown in our faces and being humans with a dangerous and most of the times hurtful since of curiosity, we click on these things just to have a look, which rapidly become a lot more than that.  I would not go to Casual Conversation at all, in any other circumstances, certainly not after realising what issues are allowed to be discussed in there...!

The big problem with all this is while everyone realises that, while we may be responsible for the influx of new members and people that want to start making pens, and this is the result of the amount of unique information, assistance and materials sources available to anyone, this is the right recipe to attract or put the turning "bug" on anyone.  But while we do this (the older members, age not relevant...!), we destroy their interest in participate and be part of the group.  

We are certainly not giving a good example to all these new members (again age not relevant), in fact, while they try gathering as much information as they can, they prefer to stay in the "shadows" and not get caught/involved in something that they don't know or can handle, *and this my friends is what is wrong...!* I put myself in the shoes of many people, right here, right now, and opening the IAP this morning has put me in a pass that I didn't expect or wanted, clicking on "new posts" that was suppose to be about pen turning/making, I found myself spending well over 1 1/2 hours reading this whole thread, and finding myself with the need to say to everyone, enough is enough peoples...! 

For 1 1/2 hours this morning I have not learnt or seen anything that I like or wished to see, I haven't discussed or shared anything to do with pens, and apart from giving another headache, I don't feel that I start the day the way I would prefer, these things give me a knot in my gut and upsets me considerably, something that I don't get, by the contrary, when I'm discussing things that really matter...!

I have spent lately a lot more time involved with these issues than I like and or though possible/desirable, in an International forum about pen making/turning or that is what it was suppose to be and reason why I joined so, myself and I believe many others out there in this forum, are reaching breaking point about these damaging and time consuming issues...!

So my friends, old and new, "what's happening to IAP" is simple really, you still leave in the same house and street but the neighbours keep changing...!  Each one of those neighbours is different than the previous one, you have to adapt to those changes and more importantly you have to respect those differences.  The friendships or the "association" you had previously, will be established if you give yourself the time to know who is around you now, scaring them and make them be all defensive and hide in the shadows, will not help you a bit, unless you prefer to be ignored all together.

This "mood" has to change and the very first step I would be doing if I was in Jeff's position, was to keep this and any identical topics where it/they belong(s), if he decides to keep it, there is in a place where you only go there if you so wish and not thrown into peoples faces on the "New Posts" threads selection...! It has consumed all my IAP time this morning, and I'm not that happy about it, nor I should...!

I apologise for anything said that may make some feel upset by, and for another one of my normal long posts, I wish that I had the ability to use words the way some were do, including our very own *DCBluesman* that has expressed beautifully in his last post (#30) the essence and deep reality of one of the facts that is affecting lots of people in our days, and that has a lot to do with *LandfillLumber's* question...!

Cheers
George


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## MesquiteMan (Nov 16, 2010)

robutacion said:


> Geez, here we go again...!
> 
> The way I see it is, "Casual Conversation" should not (ever) appear on the "New Posts" list, this has been causing more troubles when its worth, why...??? every time I log on to IAP (first thing in the morning) and check things out, I many many of us go straight to the "New Posts" option, this is in my view a simple way to keep tabs on new and recent stuff without having to jump from topic to topic.



George, as has been said MANY times, you can already keep Casual Conversation (or any other forum for that matter) out of your "New Posts" screen.  It is as simple as making a selection in your profile.  Then, you can have IAP the way your want it without imposing your desires on others who happen to like certain forums that you find less desirable.

Simply go into your user CP and click on   "edit options" under settings and options.  Scroll to the bottom and you can choose all the forums that you find less than desirable.  Those forums will NOT show up in your "New Posts" feed.  They will still show up on the recent posts page on the home page but if you just do not look at that and only hit "new posts", then you will never be bothered with being forced to open and comment in the casual conversation section!

Pretty simple, really.


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## dankc908 (Nov 16, 2010)

At first I wasn't going to respond to this thread but after a couple of minutes thought I decided to try to add a positive note!  I do check IAP and several other penturning and scrollsawing forums on a daily basis.  There are several that I do not check as frequently and some that I have simply chosen to not check on any more.  My list of forums is a constantly evolving list.  However, ever since I have found IAP that has become my ONLY consistent and regular forum.  One thing I have noticed on some of the other forums is that unless one is a regular "old timer", or one of the admins,  many posts aren't even acknowledged or replied to.  I have NEVER found this the case on IAP.  Whenever I've had a question or problem the 'troops' have always come to my aid.  I have dropped several sites because I've been ignored numerous times.  I have never, and am not now, tempted to drop IAP.  It, and its' members, are too valuable for me to even consider this.  IAP is one of the best 'tools' in my penturning toolbox!

Dan


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## robutacion (Nov 16, 2010)

MesquiteMan said:


> robutacion said:
> 
> 
> > Geez, here we go again...!
> ...



Curtis,

As much as I believe what you said about the number of times has been said how to block topics to appear on the "new post" page, I was aware of blocking members (I'm yet to use that option...!) but, this was the first time I recall to be said that is possible and how its done.  I wasted no time in find that option and for the first time ever block anything from any forum I have been member of, I only wished that I have realised that I didn't need to have any assistance from the administration to have that happening, so thank you very much for the tip. 

Lets see if its works tomorrow...!:wink:

Cheers
George


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## greggas (Nov 16, 2010)

For a coupe of years now IAP has been one of my favorite sites and I often visit it it many times a day .  I have learned a lot from many of you and for that I say thanks.  I have enjoyed the classified sections for a great source of unique wood and pen products as well as links to others' sites.  I have enjoyed the posts on techniques, tips, etc.  I have enjoyed viewing the work of others and have added the occasional post to add my own two cents.

I cannot speak to the IAP prior to 2009 but any social group, even those with common interests, is always going to be a fluid situation that constantly changes.  Really no different than our every day society. 

I tend not to post much on woodworking sites that is not about woodworking.  When I read those that are outside of pen turning on IAP I laugh at some, disagree with some, and simply ignore some.  

We are a very diverse group of people from all over the globe with different values, customs, habits, political views, likes, dislikes, etc. . I think the forum structure of IAP is excellent.  Inevitably, on any site with forums, you are going to get posts from people that are social in nature and have little or nothing to do with the theme of the site.  I assume this is why IAP has the "Casual Conversation" forum.  I see this forum as a place for those who want to discuss, joke, rant, etc about anything ( within forum rules) to go and do so.  Many of the posts in casual conversation do not catch my interest so I simply move on.  

Have you ever noticed when you write an email it can tend to sound rather harsh?  For this reason if I am really pissed at someone I tend to wait an hour or two before I fire off a missive so as to try and temper my writing.  I find expressing divergent views online tends to be the same.  It is very easy for folks  with different views to get into a war of words online...and it happens much quicker and more often than it would if the same people were face to face IMHO.  This is why "Casual Conversation" serves such a vital purpose to this website.  It places all the non-pen posts into one section that can be EASILY ignored if one so desires and keeps the post not about pens out of posts about pens.

Over the past several months I kept seeing post referring to conflicts on IAP.  Having not having participated in the discussions I did a little searching and frankly found most of these to be much ado about nothing in most cases. For the most part they seemed to be posts that grew into endless food fights which is often common on sites.  Again, this is why I like having " casual conversation" as it keeps thing tidy here on IAP.  

Anyways, that is all I have to say....just felt the need to post something on this .  

I enjoy the IAP very much, I thank those who run it for their efforts and I thanks those of you who visit here for contributing and hope that you continue to do so.  This really is a very good site.

Gotta go make some money...have a good day.


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## Ligget (Nov 16, 2010)

As one of the oldies in the membership years, I think this is still the best forum I belong to on the internet, it is more a community to me and I am proud to be a part of it.

Members will come and go as with any forum, not much can be done about this except for keeping going and doing what we love, making pens!


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## DurocShark (Nov 16, 2010)

I wonder if we should create a separate forum for "IAP is broken" threads.

:wink:

Seriously, these threads are getting repetitive. Instead of talking about what is wrong (or isn't wrong), we should be participating and learning and teaching and ...


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## alphageek (Nov 16, 2010)

DurocShark said:


> I wonder if we should create a separate forum for "IAP is broken" threads.
> 
> :wink:
> 
> Seriously, these threads are getting repetitive. Instead of talking about what is wrong (or isn't wrong), we should be participating and learning and teaching and ...



I say we just all vow to ignore them!  Then they will go away.


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## Grim Spirit (Nov 16, 2010)

"*Change is inevitable*. (except from a vending machin).  Growth is optional."

The only constant in the universe is Change.  The opposite of change is not entropy, but change in the opposite direction.


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## maxwell_smart007 (Nov 16, 2010)

This gives me a good opportunity to use one of my favourite quotes from my philosophy degree (yes, I spent good money on a philosophy degree - and still owe money on it! )

Someone once said that _one cannot step in the same river twice_.  (Heraclitus, or Anaximander, or one of the other Greek axial philosophers; I cannot recall which at the moment)

Everything is in a constant state of flux, and trying to prevent it is like trying to stop the individual water molecules in the river from flowing.  What we can do is embrace change, and direct it toward what we would like to see (i.e. damming the river, embankments, etc.).  Extolling that the river is different is like saying the forum is changing.  Sure it is - but that's the essence of life!


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## arioux (Nov 16, 2010)

IAP is and will be what WE make it to be.

Everyone is responsible for every word that he/she posted here. 

When he created this forum, Jeff had a goal.  If you ask him if this goal is acheived today, i'm  pretty sure that he is satisfied with it,  altough he might bite his tong once in a while.

I made few mistake since i'm here.  Been put back in my place at 2 or 3 occasion, used the ignore list a few times.  Common thing in a forum this size.  I now try not to reply to a post when it has me jump of my chair.  Focussing on the post that require opinion, knowledge or support.  Trying to focus on the IAP reason of existance.  And i feel a lot better since then.  Plus, my ignore list is now empty because i learned with time that even if sometime i don't like or agree with a post, each individual that post here can bring me something.


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## jttheclockman (Nov 16, 2010)

Yes these posts are getting boring already but with that said if so many people are making them then maybe there is something to them. Yes there is change here and the older the member is the more change they have seen. The thing is, are we changing in the right direction and is the change positive.??? I see both here. So I guess we just need to let the site continue to evolve and we along with it. I am sure if it gets tilted in the wrong direction there will be plenty of people here to right the ship. I just hope the imagination and willingness to share part does not decrease to the point where it is pointless to stop by here. Reading a whole forum of ads and casual conversation is not what I want to see here. 

Challenge ourselves is what we are about here because everyone can make a pen. Lets face it. this is NOT rocket science by any stretch of the imagination except for a few here and they know their talents are extreme. We strive to keep getting better with our pen making and I guess that is what the site needs to see. I hate seeing all the rules wanted to be changed or made sterile. Lighten up already and have some fun here. This is pen making 101.


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## Smitty37 (Nov 16, 2010)

*Well maybe*



Padre said:


> maxwell_smart007 said:
> 
> 
> > Chip, MVV isn't even two years old, so it's a rather new subforum. Given that the vendors from MVV can post in Business Classifieds, nothing's really changing in that regard...the farewell posts aren't really goodbye for good, after all....
> ...


 
If I am honest, I would have to say I won't miss MVV.  I did business with at least 3 vendors listed there but not because I found them there.  I found or heard about them on other forums.  I was on this site for 7 or 8 months before I ever visited MVV.


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## LandfillLumber (Nov 16, 2010)

HMM I think having had so many posts that are similar says something(they call them patterns)they always mean something.Talking about things is not a bad thing everyone bashing the site would be,I have not and never would do that.I like the IAP if I did not I would have went on my way and never said a thing(it bothers me because I care).Thanks,Victor


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## Scott (Nov 16, 2010)

Victor!  You rabble-rouser, you!   ;-)

I didn't really have anything to add.  From what I read it has all now been said.  If I were to say anything, it would be to comment on how nice it is that all these people think enough of the IAP and of each other that they wanted to comment here!  I don't expect everyone to get along or to agree with each other, but I do hope that we will treat each other with respect, and I think (for the most part) we have.  So "good on ya!"

Take care, friends!

Scott.


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## Padre (Nov 18, 2010)

I was going to start a new thread about WHAT IS RIGHT ABOUT THE IAP, but thought better of it. :biggrin:

But here's some food for thought since lately we've all been reading and some talking about what's right, wrong, political, acceptable etc., on IAP

Many times a forum becomes a 'social network' per se, with the members  becoming online friends, and at times, meeting in 'real life.'  Read the thread about Curtis' foray up here into New England.  Good stuff!  He met a lot of members, and it seems to me, friendships were born.  Not only in this way the forum  becomes an online 'family' if you will, with all the foibles that come  along with that.

I think it is a natural outflow from this that 'off topic' posts come  in.  Posts such as asking for help, asking for prayer, announcing a  birth, death or other life-changing events.

"Personal" posts are an extension of community, which comes from the Latin _*communitas: *_commonly  referring either to an unstructured community in which people are equal  and it also speaks to the very spirit of community.  It is an intense  community spirit, the feeling of great social equality, solidarity, and  togetherness.

From this, I believe, comes the personal posts, the hurt feelings, the  joy, the sorrow and all the beautiful humanness that makes us what were are at  IAP.

To me, this in addition to the learning, teaching, pictures, advice, complaints, tutorials, videos and all the numerous resources = what's right about IAP.


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## RAdams (Nov 18, 2010)

Padre said:


> I was going to start a new thread about WHAT IS RIGHT ABOUT THE IAP, but thought better of it. :biggrin:
> 
> But here's some food for thought since lately we've all been reading and some talking about what's right, wrong, political, acceptable etc., on IAP
> 
> ...


 



well said!


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## wood-of-1kind (Nov 18, 2010)

There's a "lot" of good things with IAP as this old post has indicated. Hopefully you will be able to open the link...


http://www.penturners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=4032


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## Dudley Young (Nov 18, 2010)

wood-of-1kind said:


> There's a "lot" of good things with IAP as this old post has indicated. Hopefully you will be able to open the link...
> 
> 
> http://www.penturners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=4032


I agree. Some folks just need to quit belly-achin and have fun.


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## Russianwolf (Nov 18, 2010)

(stifles yawn)


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## babyblues (Nov 18, 2010)

I tend to assume everyone else is stupid compared to me anyway, so nothing has changed for me. AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!! I trust you all know I'm joking. :biggrin:


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## tbroye (Nov 18, 2010)

Has any thing been resolved?  This discussion has be good and civil.  But boy it's time to make pens.


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## nava1uni (Nov 19, 2010)

I have read all of the posts to this thread.  There is a similarity in all of them to many other lengthy threads. I think that the comments about fear, economic uncertainly affecting our country and our daily lives are sure to be having an affect on many members and the atmosphere around us. There is a quote that I use to manage my life on a daily basis and I think that it is pertinent to this type of discussion, "Take what you want and leave the rest". Simple, but direct.


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