# Anyone interested in purchasing this kind of blank?



## Marko50 (Mar 26, 2014)

I've had a couple requests from customers wanting a Harley Davidson pen. Is there an interest out there for these kind of blanks? I would be asking somewhere around $60.00-$65.00 due to the time involved in putting them together. Any thoughts?


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## Ambidex (Mar 26, 2014)

I'd be interested. Is there any legal ramifications for you? I seen quite a few threads on legal issues with schools or businesses when you use their logos. I hope not as I'd purchase a few.


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## Marko50 (Mar 26, 2014)

Ambidex said:


> I'd be interested. Is there any legal ramifications for you? I seen quite a few threads on legal issues with schools or businesses when you use their logos. I hope not as I'd purchase a few.



I don't believe so. The Harley medallion has a registered trademark on it (®) and it is meant to go on a hiking stick or any other personal item. It is specifically marketed that way. I don't think they care what you put it on due to the fact that that is its sole purpose.


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## OKLAHOMAN (Mar 26, 2014)

Be very careful as Harley, Coke, NCAA, NFL, MLB,NBS, Nascar and others protect the rights to use their logo's very stringently. Once you start "selling" products using their logo's without paying for the rights to use them your open to first a 

*A cease and desist letter, also known as an "infringement letter" or a "demand letter,"  is an order or request that a party halt an activity ("cease") and not  take it up again later ("desist"), else face legal action. The recipient of the letter may be an individual or an organization.*
* Although cease and desist letters are not exclusively used in the area of intellectual property,  such letters "are frequently utilized in disputes concerning  intellectual property and represent an important feature of the  intellectual property law landscape." The holder of an intellectual property right such as a copyrighted work, a trademark, or a patent,  may send the cease and desist letter to inform a third party "of the  right holders' rights, identity, and intentions to enforce the rights." The letter may merely contain a licensing offer, or may be an explicit threat of a lawsuit.] A cease and desist letter often triggers licensing negotiations, and is a frequent first step towards litigation. 

The above is copied from Wikipedia

*I have in the past received one when I owned a Nascar collectable store a few years ago when I used the Nascar logo on our sign. We were able to keep it at no cost but it took a number of letters and a phone call and it was an eye opener, as they could have made me take it down or pay a licensing fee.

By the way I would love to have them for sale on Classic's but given the above it just won't be worth it to test Harley. You did a grest job on it. Roy


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## OKLAHOMAN (Mar 26, 2014)

Marko50 said:


> Ambidex said:
> 
> 
> > I'd be interested. Is there any legal ramifications for you? I seen quite a few threads on legal issues with schools or businesses when you use their logos. I hope not as I'd purchase a few.
> ...



Mark, the business that made the medallion paid a licensing fee for it's use, allowing it to be used exclusively on it's product. Just be careful in advertising your blanks.


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## ashaw (Mar 26, 2014)

Roy is absolutely correct on this one.  Even though the leasing fee was paid it was paid by a third party with the expectations they would be the one making the money off of the medallions.  I would be very careful so that you or your trading partner is not pulled into a lawsuit.  You need to consult a trademark attorney to make sure you are in the clear. Good luck and bank is beautiful.


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## Jim15 (Mar 26, 2014)

Mark I would buy one. Not to sell but as a gift for my son.


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## Bob Wemm (Mar 26, 2014)

You are correct in thinking that you can use it for whatever you want.

BUT. The moment you try to SELL it, the whole ball game changes. Same with any copyright item in a book or magazine, you can reproduce it for your own purposes but you cannot sell it.

BE VERY CAREFUL.

Bob.


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## Indiana_Parrothead (Mar 26, 2014)

First let me say that I am by no means a Trademark attorney but with that being said here is my take on this. I think that you could get in trouble if you market the pen as being a "Harley Davidson Pen" as then you are representing it as a Harley product and they would not take kindly to that. But if you market it as a "Steampunk Pen with a Harley Medallion" I don't think that it would not raise as much of a problem. Then it become similar to a Watch parts pen with a Rolex, but even that is an open issue. 

I have seen the medallion and it's packaging and even made a few myself. The medallion is licensed by Harley to the medallion maker and I agree with you that it is ment to be used to embelish anything that you want to put it on, specificly walking sticks in this case. When you make a pen with this and sell it you have control over how you are marketing it, a Steampunk Pen with a Harley medallion vs a Harley Pen, the problem will arise once you sell it and have no control over how it is marketed. As Ashaw said "I would be very careful so that you or your trading partner is not pulled into a lawsuit." once you sell the blank you become the trading partner and open yourself up to potential problems.

By the way great pen and a very cool idea, I wish I would have thought of it....

Mike


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## Smitty37 (Mar 26, 2014)

Marko50 said:


> I've had a couple requests from customers wanting a Harley Davidson pen. Is there an interest out there for these kind of blanks? I would be asking somewhere around $60.00-$65.00 due to the time involved in putting them together. Any thoughts?


You can use it for personal use with no problem, the company has no recourse since the sale to you is undoubtedly licensed and the design of the medalion suggests installing on something.  Putting on a blank and selling the blank might because that is a commercial use and you aren't the holder of a license.  But, you might be alright if someone provided the medalion and asked you to install it in a pen blank for their personal use.


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## mredburn (Mar 26, 2014)

The problem arises when you use their trademarks and logos to sell your pen. As stated for your own personal use, fine.  But if its the main selling point of the pen your head is on the chopping block.  Dont think that they wont come after you if they find you either.  They must vigorously pursue  ALL infringements to keep their logos from becoming public Domain.  True they may never find you, and they may just send a cease and desist letter but then again them may get really nasty about it.  Disney, Mont Blank, Pelikan, all have history's for suing for infringement.


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## stonepecker (Mar 26, 2014)

Depending on the price........I would be interested.

Long time biker here.


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## JohnGreco (Mar 26, 2014)

I was recently in talks with a network to do pens related to a TV show. Legally, to do this work, they required significant licensing fees both up front and a % of each sale. Ultimately it didn't move forward, but it showed me just how much legal paperwork is involved in using any company's brand, logo, etc. 

Talk to Harley and see if you can get something in the works through them. I could see these doing well in their shops. But even then, you are entering into a contract as the manufacturer of these items, which (based on my experience) does not extend to OTHER people using that blank to resell as a pen THEY made. 

Best of luck.


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## kovalcik (Mar 26, 2014)

The trademark thing is tricky.  You are allowed to re-sell the item, but if it is altered or repackaged, then you can run into problems.  Then there was a case of a woman selling (I think) pillow cases made from Disney character fabric.  She won the case because it was ruled she used the item as it was meant to be used. 

So the question is whether you are using the medallion as it was meant to be used or if you are repurposing it.   If interested, do a Google search for "First sale rule".

I generally try to avoid anything that may an issue.  Just don't have the time or resources to spend defending myself.

Maybe if every IAP member chips in a few bucks, we can get a Trademark attorney to explain what we can and cannot sell safely.  Would make a great addition to the library.  :biggrin:


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## ed4copies (Mar 26, 2014)

The trouble with "the law" is that you CAN do whatever you like!!

And, the logo owner can interpret the law however HE likes!!

But if the logo owner files a lawsuit against you, it boils down to "How much can you afford vs how much can HE afford".

You wanna play that game with Harley Davidson???  If you can afford the hundreds of thousands of dollars this could cost (estimated at 1 to 3 million in a recent article I read), you probably don't need to be selling $200 pens!!!!

FWIW,
Ed


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## Mike Powell (Mar 26, 2014)

HD is a pretty reasonable bunch...  Give head quarters a call, you may find that they WANT you to make the pen for them.  Now it would come down to how many you can make and keep up with the demand.  I know that being a HD rider, I would definately buy one.  It could turn out to be a very profitable adventure for you, even more so if you gave HD a call to get permission, and it could even lead to a corporate contract.


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## OLDMAN5050 (Mar 26, 2014)

At 65 bucks no thanks.. People as myself could not even think about getting one..


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## buttonsHT (Mar 26, 2014)

Mike Powell said:


> HD is a pretty reasonable bunch...  Give head quarters a call, you may find that they WANT you to make the pen for them.  Now it would come down to how many you can make and keep up with the demand.  I know that being a HD rider, I would definately buy one.  It could turn out to be a very profitable adventure for you, even more so if you gave HD a call to get permission, and it could even lead to a corporate contract.



HD are absolutely NOT reasonable when it comes to using their logo. They very much frown upon it.


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## Marko50 (Mar 26, 2014)

Very "information rich" feed back fellas! thank you. Let me pose this question; what if I were to run an add asking if anyone were interested in me casting a custom  steampunk style pen embellished with a choice of unique medallions, one of which would be a Harley Davidson medallion. Wouldn't that put it in a whole different light? I definitely don't want a rumble with Harley. Lord knows that would drain me dry of cash!…. or maybe I could just ask folks to PM me if they are interested in having their own blanks to turn? …hmmmmm….food for thought


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## TexasTaxi (Mar 26, 2014)

I'm interested. You can do just about any design in them, right?


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## Cmiles1985 (Mar 26, 2014)

Perhaps if "they buy and send the medallion to you to have cast" it would be legal in the eyes of those who have greater attorneys...or at least it may slip under the radar.


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## nappy155 (Mar 26, 2014)

PSi had the same situation with the Jack Daniels blanks...


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## stonepecker (Mar 26, 2014)

I am afraid I would be with the "OLDMAN" on this one.
Even if I would buy it just for myself.......That is a little steep.

Beautiful blank .... I like it .... Sadly, not that much.


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## showcaser (Mar 26, 2014)

Just to let you know, even the company who originally made that HD Medallion isn't licensed with them anymore. Kinda throws in a new factor. Licensing is a tough business, especially when you get caught. 
Regards Patrick


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## mtassie (Mar 26, 2014)

I would take two


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## Mr Vic (Mar 26, 2014)

It can takes years to work out a licensing deal with H-D. They are even real tough on their dealerships on where and how they use trade marked logos. I've thought about using some items and have shied away.

And for what it's worth....Harley-Davidson must always be spelled with the dash...My profile explains how I know....


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## Smitty37 (Mar 26, 2014)

showcaser said:


> Just to let you know, even the company who originally made that HD Medallion isn't licensed with them anymore. Kinda throws in a new factor. Licensing is a tough business, especially when you get caught.
> Regards Patrick


Not really, if they had a license when the medallion was made it is perfectly legal.


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## Smitty37 (Mar 26, 2014)

ed4copies said:


> The trouble with "the law" is that you CAN do whatever you like!!
> 
> And, the logo owner can interpret the law however HE likes!!
> 
> ...


 The thing is Ed, that in any case where you are on good legal ground, you can find a law firm that will take the case on a contingent basis and countersue for court costs and attornies fees which if you win the court will always grant if you are a small company (it won't in cases between two giants).  The idea is to prevent large companies from abusing their position - that is the reason that so many "cease and desist" letters are used and never followed up on.  The owner of the trademark, protects their rights by sending the letter - they do not have to carry out the threat.  

Professional and college sports are a different ballgame in that many of the items that abody would make with their logo are also sold by them.  There is a corporation that virtually all big colleges and professional sports teams contract trademark enforcement to and they do pursue violations very vigoressly.

I do know that a lot of model railroad car kits come with logos from various companies and there are a lot of people who build and sell those cars.  I have never heard of anyone being sued over that. Coke and Pepsi Cola logos both appear in a lot of kits along with dozens of other companies from both past and present.  If you are not selling a competing product, you are giving them free advertising.  Many furniture crafters buy metal signs that they then include in certain kinds of rustic furniture I've never heard of one of them being asked to stop if they acquired the item legally.


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## Pen-Archer (Mar 26, 2014)

They do go after model trains now and the manufacturers are now required to get a license agreement.  I had a model train car with a beer logo that I tried to sell on eBay and the beer company came after me. Long long legal story short, I couldn't be held responsible for something I bought at a retail store.

Now I won't make anything with a trademark weither it is a logo or an image like a cartoon character.  Unless I had a license agreement.

The best thing to do is if you are going to sell or distribute a product with another company's trademark,  contact the company's licensing attorney and see what their terms are. If you don't like their terms, then walk away.  Otherwise,  you could end up in a expensive legal battle and end up with a very very expensive product that you cannot sell or give away.


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## Smitty37 (Mar 26, 2014)

Pen-Archer said:


> They do go after model trains now and the manufacturers are now required to get a license agreement. I had a model train car with a beer logo that I tried to sell on eBay and the beer company came after me. *Long long legal story short, I couldn't be held responsible for something I bought at a retail store.*
> 
> Now I won't make anything with a trademark weither it is a logo or an image like a cartoon character. Unless I had a license agreement.
> 
> The best thing to do is if you are going to sell or distribute a product with another company's trademark, contact the company's licensing attorney and see what their terms are. If you don't like their terms, then walk away. Otherwise, you could end up in a expensive legal battle and end up with a very very expensive product that you cannot sell or give away.


 The beer company knew that...you should have countersued for costs and legal fees, particularily if you advertised the car as used.  

The model train manufacturers have always had to get a license for their products.  But, I think it is as likely that they get paid to include company cars as it is they pay for the license.  It is advertising for the owner of the trademark.


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## Pen-Archer (Mar 27, 2014)

I got squared away but it was still a stupid waste of life over a stupid toy train.

 The manufacturers got (or should have) a license agreement to use the company brand on their products regardless of cost or who paid for it.

If you have any questions about using a company brand/logo/trademark, consult a lawyer or call their lawyer.


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## healeydays (Mar 30, 2014)

I use to sell old magazine ads from 1960s and 1970's automotive magazines on ebay and one day I get some of my auctions yanked due to infringement of rights by Caroll Shelby America inc.   They said even though it was from the 60s (Shelby Mustang ad) that it was their property.  I got a bit incensed about it and decided to call their HQ and got the runaround from different lawyers.  I then decided to write an email to the President of his company and asked if he'd give me a call about the situation.

  Now if you know anything about Shelby and the lawsuits they went thru with defending the Cobra, you can understand they got lots of lawyers and are real good at winning.  So he gives me a call and we talk about it, and he told me that they normally get 10K for rights to small items such as memorabilia like I am selling thinking I'd jump at the chance.  I then told him I get $9.95 per ad so I'd have to sell over 1000 ads to cover the cost and the phone went silent.  He then said "My lawyers are working on what?"  and I explained to him again that it was an old advertisment out of a 1966 Road & Track magazine and he started laughing.  He and I agreed that this was nuts and I could just make a small donation to the Carroll Shelby Foundation that helps kids battle life-threatening illnesses.  It was a win-win in my eyes.

Sometimes it just takes a simple phonecall...
Mike B


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## tbroye (Mar 30, 2014)

I would be interested in 2. I would give them to a couple of former coworkers who have Harley's.  What kind of Pen are they made for?


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