# Wanting to go kitless



## PAturner (Apr 28, 2016)

Hello, I'm new to the forum and am looking into the world of kitless fountain pens. I want to make sure I have the bases covered before I take the plunge. I have decent experience with turning. Lots of kit pens, bowls, random spindle work, and I've even made pipes as gifts for my dad and brothers so I also have experience drilling ebonite and acrylic. Anyway, as far as basic tools, I think I'll need a digital caliper and some more taps/dies. Anything else come to mind? (I plan on making a die holder to mount in the tailstock myself). 

As far as I understand, a fountain pen has three main parts that have to be made- the cap, body, and section. So here's my plan for turning and tooling, please let me know if there's something missing.
For the cap- 
-On the inside, I'll need threads to match the body- it seems many people use metric threads but is it a huge issue if I use a close imperial approximation? 

For the body- 
-Threads on the outside to match the cap 
-threads on the inside to fit the section threads (thinking a 9mm x .75mm tap/die?)

For the section- (where I am most confused) 
-threads on outside to meet body (9mm x .75mm) 
Now my confusion- as I understand it, the section requires 3 holes- one that will fit the nib housing, (larger) one at the back of that hole to be threaded to match the nib (smaller), and one at the other end to provide a snug fit for the converter. Is that all correct? 

Also, in regards to sizing holes and tenons to be threaded, I assume there will be charts or similar things that will say what size to make them? If not, how would I determine hole and tenon size? I know I've bookmarked a rule for sizing holes to be tapped, just have to find it, but tenons I'm unsure of. 

And finally, what nibs would you recommend and where would you buy them? Preferably a spot online that sells the nibs along with converters to fit them. Also, how do I find the proper tap size to fit the nibs? Beaufort ink seems like a good spot with okay pricing, (and they sell special taps to fit their Bock nibs) however they are based in the UK so im not sure if shipping would be worth it. Does anyone have experience with them? If so, would you recommend them? 

I apologize for the novel and greatly appreciate any help. Thanks!


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## mredburn (Apr 28, 2016)

There are a couple of articles in the library that may help you.
Imperial threads will work but the std sizes in sets and available in retail are generally way to course of a thread pitch.  If you dont care it they are coarser than go ahead and try them. If you find you dont like them you can go to metric.  There are reasons that we use metric threads.  There are several sellers of Nib/feed assemblies.  
 Jowo from Meisternibs, Bock from Classicnib, Heritance from ExoticBlanks, Schmidt from Richard Greenwald.  
Classic Nib carries the taps for the bock feeds, I have the taps for jowo and some Schmidt and Heritance, Richard has taps for Schmidt also.

Beaufort may be a good answer depending on Dollar to Euro conversion and shipping.
Besides a die holder you would need a tap guide.


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## mredburn (Apr 28, 2016)

http://content.penturners.org/library/general_reference/taps_dies_kitless.pdf
http://www.penturners.org/forum/f56/making-fountain-pen-section-tutorial-88966/
http://content.penturners.org/library/pens/another_way_pen.pdf

here are a couple to start with.


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## Joey-Nieves (Apr 28, 2016)

Welcome:
Making a kitless pen is sort of easy, if your patient, careful and can handle delicate jobs on your lathe.  As mike pointed out the library has a lot of useful information, but I found this video and the others he made very enlightening. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DQna36uThA 
I tried reaching out to him but he never answered so Se the videos on his youtube page and check out our library.

As a tip, you may want to start with a 14mm thread (cap size) pen and a #6 nib Exotic Blanks :: Nibs, Bushings, Bits, Tubes & Parts :: Fountain Pen Nib Sections & Nibs :: Emperor & Oriental Dragon Fountain Pen Nib Section - Rhodium this section uses a 10mm x.75 thread that you can find very easy the other size used is 10mm x 1.  on the #5 nibs most sections are 8.5mm x 1, 8.4mm x1 and the jr gent is 8mm x 1. You will be making your own sections in the future but if you use these sections as reference, then making your own would be a mater of adapting, also the threads that go inside the section are different depending on the brand of feed you use, there is a reference for this in the library.

Try making a pen with what you got first, then work your way up because it can get expensive, Silver Pen Parts has taps and dies and other goodies. Richard L. Greenwald, LLC, Pens, Pens Parts and Photographs   the Classic nib just to mention a few.


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## bmachin (Apr 29, 2016)

In addition to everything mentioned above, buy The Penturner's Bible by Richard Kleinhenz.  It is available from Amazon for about $19 in paperback and $10 in kindle.

In addition to a lot of step by step modifications to kit pens he has drawings and detailed instructions for two kilts pens--one using a pre-built section and one using a nib-feed-housing unit.

This was the book that got me started.

Bill


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## PAturner (Apr 29, 2016)

Thanks for the information everyone!


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## ladycop322 (Apr 29, 2016)

there will be a video from the FLGAPG coming out...working on it...start to finish by Jonathan Brooks....stay tuned


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## frank123 (Apr 29, 2016)

You can use imperial threading but metric is more convenient for the most part.  It's easier to figure drill and tenon sizes with metric as well without having to remember formulas or do anything above simple addition and subtraction in your head.

Finer threads allow you to use a thinner body outside diameter dimension and still have enough wall thickness for strength.  Metric fine threading is easier to find than the similar pitch on an imperial thread (i.e. it's easier to find a 6mm x .5 tap and die than a 1/4in x 48 tap and die).

But since you're the one making it, the author as such, you can pretty much use anything you like as long as you get the result you like.  

If you have access to a metal lathe you can even make your own unique threads in any pitch you want if that sort of thing strikes your fancy.


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## Phil Dart (Apr 29, 2016)

Hi PATurner - I'm Beaufort Ink. Shipping to the US for Bock nibs can be as little as £3.15 (GBP) The addition of thread taps will obviously add to the weight, but even with a full set of 3 should not cost more that about £5 or £6. 

Any nibs that are currently showing out of stock should be available again by the middle of next week. - I hope that helps and good luck with your new direction.

Phil


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## PAturner (Apr 29, 2016)

Thank you Phil! You may be receiving an order soon! Quick question, the taps you sell are meant to pair with the regular nibs, not the "kit compatible" ones, right?


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## More4dan (Apr 29, 2016)

This may also help with front section for a #5 Bock.  Dimensioned drawing of the feed unit and drill numbers for fabrication.  You will need a caliber and a full set of drill bits numbered, letter, and fractional.  Welcome to the addiction.  As fun as that first kit pen was, this will be 10x more satisfying. 

http://www.penturners.org/forum/f56/bock-5mm-nib-unit-dimensions-inches-drill-sizes-139753/


Danny


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## Phil Dart (Apr 30, 2016)

Yes, you're right. The kit compatible housings are meant to fit into kit pens as a straight swap. Go for the Bock housings in the middle column, which is what the thread taps match.


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## Penultimate (Apr 30, 2016)

Greetings and have fun with kitless. As you will see here the creative possibilities are infinite. +1 for the Pen Turners Bible, you can get it at alibris.com for a little less than Amazon. I wish I had it when I started making mistakes ... er kitless pens.


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## farmer (Apr 30, 2016)

*Kitless pen*



Penultimate said:


> Greetings and have fun with kitless. As you will see here the creative possibilities are infinite. +1 for the Pen Turners Bible, you can get it at alibris.com for a little less than Amazon. I wish I had it when I started making mistakes ... er kitless pens.



For a kit less pen you don't make all the parts yourself ?


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## chet0213 (May 1, 2016)

I have to agree,  going metric is the way to go.  Most standard is too coarse for most materials.  That will be the next step!  Also what types of jaws/chucks do you have?  A nice Collet chuck with all size er32 collets would be in order.  Take your time threading!   Sketch out your pens prior to starting your work( I use Autodesk Inventor).  The size taps you have,and that people have discussed already is a great starting point, 14mm cap to body, section to body 10mmX .75, and there are various nib units to use which will take mastering your calipers for the various depths of drilling and tapping!  Different materials will be difficult to work with but that's part of the learning curve! Lots of great information on here so just start reading and you will be at it in no time.


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## PAturner (May 2, 2016)

Well, as an update: I'm waiting for a few drill bits to come in, but I did some practice threading today which went quite well, so I'm happy about that. A little more research on sections and I'll set off making my first kitless pen.


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## conandy (May 2, 2016)

PAturner said:


> Well, as an update: I'm waiting for a few drill bits to come in, but I did some practice threading today which went quite well, so I'm happy about that. A little more research on sections and I'll set off making my first kitless pen.



Keep us apprised of how things go, what you decide to use for threads, etc.  I am looking forward to trying some kitless pens in the next month or so.  I am trying to make the same decisions you are making.   

Would love to hear where you end up sourcing your taps and dies and such, too.


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