# Political Discussions?



## jeff (Dec 16, 2009)

A lot of threads recently have wandered into the area of political discussion. I think this is due in part to the tremendous attention these days on global topics such as the economy and the environment, which are almost impossible to discuss in any depth without veering into politics.

These sort of discussions enlighten and educate us, and can help us establish new friendships and understand different viewpoints. However, they can also be divisive and distracting unless everyone involved can bring to the discussion a tolerance for other opinions, and personal respect for the people with different ideas.

We have toyed with the idea of allowing political discussions, and before we spend any more time thinking about how best to implement it, I wanted to get a sense of what the community wants.

So please give me your opinion in this poll. THANKS!


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## ed4copies (Dec 16, 2009)

OK!!!!

*It's UNANIMOUS!!!*

One vote, One for a separate "Opt in forum".

When do we start???​


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## creativewriting (Dec 16, 2009)

> tolerance for other opinions, and personal respect for the people with different ideas


 
This statement says it all! If this can be achieved then let the discussions commence! Great wording!


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## snowman56 (Dec 16, 2009)

Sure i would like to see what  the great mind's here at IAP have to say.


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## HSTurning (Dec 16, 2009)

I vote yes-opt in
But if you open up to this then the same option should/would need to be avalible for religion.  
Religion an politics can get people pretty heated.


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## nava1uni (Dec 16, 2009)

" However, they can also be divisive and distracting unless everyone involved can bring to the discussion a tolerance for other opinions, and personal respect for the people with different ideas."

 Only if this statement can be honored and without anger at the difference of opinions.


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## dustmaker (Dec 16, 2009)

I voted for opt in forum...so long as it is closely moderated and well understood that tolerances for varied opines is the norm and respect for the individual prevails.  I have left another forum due to raging, off topic political debates which ended in name calling and threats of physical violence.  I don't know about you folks, but I do this stuff for fun and after a long stressful day at my job I don't like to come home and hear that Mr Joe Hothead wants to bash in Mr Opiniated's fat head. OK?
BTW, the aforementioned forum had nothing to do with penmaking or even woodworking for that matter...but it was a far cry from anything political.


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## ed4copies (Dec 16, 2009)

HSTurning said:


> I vote yes-opt in
> But if you open up to this then the same option should/would need to be avalible for religion.
> Religion an politics can get people pretty heated.


 
There IS a difference.

Religion is based on FAITH, not facts.

Politics, while there are many interpretations, still has certain FACTS that can be established as the basis of a debate.

You can't debate FAITH-you got it, or you don't.

You got yours, I got mine, he got none---and that covers it.


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## maxwell_smart007 (Dec 16, 2009)

Big ol' NO vote for me...

Penturning doesn't require political discussions - strictly speaking, it doesn't require casual conversation either, but that's one thing I'm willing to overlook, because it CONTRIBUTES to a feeling of COMMUNITY.  

Political discussions undermine this sense of community...

I saw another forum recently die because they changed the rules in ONE forum to allow politics...spilled over into all fora...

I really think that politics and religion are two things that create more tension than anything else - especially when they're discussed without face-to-face interaction. 

One other note - who is going to moderate this one, Jeff?  Curtis has his hands full already, and a political forum would do nothing but double his workload, I would think...

So I'm vehemently opposed to politics.  If they're allowed, then they'll definitely lead to ill-will and bickering. Guaranteed.


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## rjwolfe3 (Dec 16, 2009)

Ed, when politicians are involved, great faith is too, lol:biggrin::biggrin:


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## gvanweerd (Dec 16, 2009)

so long as it stays cival. this could very interesting. who knows, we might even see life outside the box. so to speak.


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## jkeithrussell (Dec 16, 2009)

I think it will prove impossible to police an opt-in forum. Simple fact is that people take their political opinions very seriously--as we have all seen in the offending threads (including me). Nothing good can come of it, and this is a penturning website, not a political website.

Edit to add: I also think the existing rules should be more stridently enforced in the Casual Conversation forum. I've stopped posting my personal opinions about non-pen-related things, and I'd like to see less of it overall.


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## Steve Busey (Dec 16, 2009)

No thanks - there are plenty of venues on the web to vent about politics. Let's keep this site to talk about pens!


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## gketell (Dec 16, 2009)

I think a separate "politics and religion" forum would be reasonable.  But I like not having it creep into all the threads by allowing it anywhere.


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## DCBluesman (Dec 16, 2009)

jeff said:


> ...they can also be divisive and distracting unless everyone involved can bring to the discussion a tolerance for other opinions, and personal respect for the people with different ideas.


 
I vote against it for a few reasons.

1.  This is the "International" Association of Penturners, yet most of the political discussions center around the US.  Adding a US-centric forum will further segregate the members.

2. We only get the tolerance and respect parts correct about 95% of the time without adding politics (or religion). Also, who will be the arbiter of definitions of tolerance and respect?  

3. With the virtually free nature of the internet, including email, discussions which are so far out of line with pen making are better handled in a forum where the boundaries are more clearly established.

4. This will take the participants' and the forum management's attention away from the primary purpose for this organization's existence.

5. I do care what just about anyone on this forum says regarding pen making.  I cannot say the same for their political (or religious) indoctrinations.

Do what you must, but keep in mind that while you can blow out a candle, you can't blow out a fire.


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## Karin Voorhis (Dec 16, 2009)

nava1uni said:


> " However, they can also be divisive and distracting unless everyone involved can bring to the discussion a tolerance for other opinions, and personal respect for the people with different ideas."
> 
> Only if this statement can be honored and without anger at the difference of opinions.


 

Well said. perhaps somewhat Utopic world like though. just IMHO:tongue:


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## Mark (Dec 16, 2009)

I vote no. If I want politics, I got to a forum meant for that discussion. I come here to learn and develop as a turner...


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## PR_Princess (Dec 16, 2009)

Politics abound. In all forms of media, including many other forums.

So each of you ask yourself...Is it really necessary on a hobby site...and of all things one on pens? Can we not have one last bastion? Or have we run out of all new pen ideas and we should just close the patent office?  

IMHO, opening up the IAP to political discussions is not the way to fix a problem. These sorts of discussions have in the past, and will continue to serve in the future, a means by which only schism and discord is created amongst the members here. Opt in or not.


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## HSTurning (Dec 16, 2009)

After reading a few post I think I want to change to no.


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## workinforwood (Dec 16, 2009)

I'll have to vote no, because it is human nature to be stubborn in ones belief's, especially when it comes to religion and politics.  This is a place to gather as friends, not create new enemies.  We all share a common thread, and that is turning, so lets keep to turning and the good comedic times of life and learning.  If the people vote yes, and you decide to side with the people, you know  you are going to be sorry...especially Curtis will be.


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## lwalden (Dec 16, 2009)

I voted no. Sad to say, but I think given a group this size, there will be an inevitable percentage that are not able to keep the discourse civil. Ed mentions above that facts provide a basis for political discussion, and while true I have also seen all parts of the political spectrum pick and chose partial facts, and take things out of context, in order to push an agenda. I hope I'm wrong, but I just picture too many threads devolving into hurtful, angry arguments, and being locked by the mods _after _friendships have been scarred.


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## ed4copies (Dec 16, 2009)

Not too long ago there was a discussion about the "Health Care" reform issue.  There were differing opinions.  BUT, someone gave us a link to the bill that was before the House at the time.  And discussion stayed civil.  I, for one, learned a few things and I doubt I am the "least informed" among us, so it should be safe to say, "Many learned SOMETHING"!

Could I have learned it someplace else?  Sure, but here it was defended by people who I think I know.  So, it had more value, to me.

Lou points out that this is an "International" association.  I find this a reason, rather than a deterrant to discuss ideas.  We live in a WORLD, Americans are too willing to protect our own turf with no regard and no understanding of others' views.  IF the Canadians, Europeans and Australians all comment, we (Americans) could learn a great deal about alternative approaches (to health care) that have worked, or not.

As long as the forum is optional, I would say, don't join if you know you are intolerant of others' opinions.  

As always, the decision is Jeff's.  The most persuasive argument against an opt-in forum is the difficulty in moderating.  So, I would propose a "two strikes and you're out" moderation.  Once very liberal rules are established, the first violation is a warning, the second bans you  from that forum.  As I once said in another place, establish a "forum with decorum".

I BELIEVE it can work.  

I also bow to whatever decision is made.  
(Unfortunately, I also agree with Lou that a bonfire cannot be "blown out", so who's got the bucket of water?????)

Good luck, whatever the decision, Jeff!!


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## tbroye (Dec 16, 2009)

I voted for the Opt in Forum. After thinking about it, I change my vote to no. I think we should refrain from the Political and Religious type of threads. Especially during this very volatile place the country is in right now. The country is already polarized why do it to this place.


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## mbroberg (Dec 16, 2009)

No, with a realization that it is going to happen.  I really don't have a big problem with these types of discussions taking place in the Casual Conversation forum, but a separate, "Political, Religious Topics" forum is not needed.  I suspect that if a separate Opt-In forum were created a majority of the active members here would Opt-In just to see what is being said or to watch the fireworks start.  But only a small percentage of the members who opt-in would regularly contribute to a discussion. Most of those who opt-in would just lurk.  Every thread of every forum is already opt-in.  People choose to join in a given discussion or not.  If a member feels they have something to contribute they do (opt-in).  If they don't like the tone of the discussion, or the direction the thread is going they can close it (opt-out) and move on to the next.  Establishing a seperate forum would be alot of unnecessary work for the moderators.  Personally I am a member here because I want to make better pens.  I'll bet that the same holds true for most.  Don't ban these discussions, but don't encourage certain topics that have nothing to do with the primary purpose of this site, penturning, by creating an unneeded forum.


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## BRobbins629 (Dec 16, 2009)

I'm a big no.  I don't hang hear to read about politics nor do I particularly care about the political philosophies of others who post here.  Why create space which will definitely upset some, probably cause some to leave due to hurt feelings or strong beliefs.  If you want to blog about politics go to a political forum.


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## Chasper (Dec 16, 2009)

I'm a strong and unwavering NO.  I really don't want to know.  Even if it is opt in, there is spill over; what is said in one forum gets referenced in others.  I'm very strong in my political opinions and have little tolerance for those on the other extreme.  Word will get around, people will start treating other with less civility, sooner or later I'll say something to someone that will get me kicked out entirely.  I just don't want to know where anyone else stands.


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## skiprat (Dec 16, 2009)

I voted no as well. I come here to talk pens and other hobby stuff and think a forum like this would end up causing more problems than it can solve.  However, I could just ignore that forum too.


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## Seer (Dec 16, 2009)

What does making pens have to do with politics is all I am asking.


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## OKLAHOMAN (Dec 16, 2009)

Jeff asked about politics not religion and as long as its politics in an op-in forum I see no reason other than having a moderator with out an itchy finger. At times in talking (arguing) politics it can and will get heated but heated discussions can be good as long as there is no offense taken by the participants and it doesn't become a name calling thread. I have been involved in a few here that have developed into name calling and that's where the mods need to address the issue and as Ed stated after 2 or 3 strikes that person would be banned from the political forum.


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## bobleibo (Dec 16, 2009)

My vote is NO........if I want to talk politics, I will find a web site that is politically oriented. 
I come here to somewhat escape the day to day pressures that we all face. I come here to learn more about a topic that brings me a great deal of pleasure, not controversy. I have found that the people on this site are the epitome of what is means to be friendly toward one another and freely share the knowledge they have gained with others who often they have never met in person. 
No matter how you cut it, there are basically two groups of people in politics, each on opposite ends of the opinion meter. At some point, human nature takes over and normally friendly people are at odds with each other. 
Why ruin a good thing?


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## jleiwig (Dec 16, 2009)

I can't believe I'm going to say this, but I conditionally vote no as well.  I get involved in many of these type of threads to try to only provide factual information or rebuke a totally false statement with evidence, so my vote may be surprising to many. I'll admit there are days when the arguing gets annoying even to me, but it's only when everyone leaves their levelheadedness at the keyboard when they log in. Some people will even continue to believe the world is flat despite the best evidence to the contrary, and it's those people who cause my blood pressure to rise to uncontrollable levels.

However I would be all for it if it would keep those type of threads out of the other areas.


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## TellicoTurning (Dec 16, 2009)

I voted NO because having seen some of the threads about things other than politics that got heated and flames started, I suspect we would have more heat and flames than we could tolerate in a political forum... and this is a hobby forum where we discuss things related to the hobby... I enjoy the casual conversation forum because that is where we get to know our fellow forum members and a lot of camaraderie develops.  

If the decision to allow it is made, then I vote that the discussions be very very strictly restricted to an opt-in forum and the rules enforced strictly to still not allow in the other forums.


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## BigguyZ (Dec 16, 2009)

Some would say that some political views have been elevated to a religion- as a lot of stuff out there certainly isn't based on fact.  




ed4copies said:


> There IS a difference.
> 
> Religion is based on FAITH, not facts.
> 
> ...


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## greenmtnguy (Dec 16, 2009)

Politics and religion are too personal to be debated objectively. Disagreement will come across as an attack. Also mentioned above, we are international and much as I hate to, I will vote no. We as a group bicker enough as it is. I know there are individuals adding to their ignore list because it is becoming a serious downer. This is a refuge for pen turners. Viewable by opt in I could live with.


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## philipff (Dec 16, 2009)

Don't we have enough hate and discontent going on all over the place without contaminating this site?  I bailed out of WOW for the political leftist views that would not be quiet.  I do not want to bail out of IAP!  Philip, Retired Admiral


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## wolftat (Dec 16, 2009)

I am against it, but I always have the option of not reading something I don't like, it's just a click away.


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## Russianwolf (Dec 16, 2009)

I voted no.

Simple reason. I'm a skilled debater who can argue any side of a topic (often do as I'll voice the side others don't want to voice themselves). I can do it because I have no passion for the topic so my feelings are never in danger. Most simply can't do this, they are too invested in the topic to allow themeselves to remain calm.


One of my favorite quotes and one that everyone should try to honor when thinking about this comes from the movie American President. I'll paraphrase since I don't have it handy.

[Defend a persons right to voice something at the top of their lungs that you would spend a lifetime opposing at the top of your lungs. Then you have free speech.]


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## sdemars (Dec 16, 2009)

*I second this . . .*



maxwell_smart007 said:


> Big ol' NO vote for me...
> 
> Penturning doesn't require political discussions - strictly speaking, it doesn't require casual conversation either, but that's one thing I'm willing to overlook, because it CONTRIBUTES to a feeling of COMMUNITY.
> 
> ...



I have seen a welding forum take on an entirely different tone due to POLITICAL DISCUSSIONS. It is now just about dead . . 

I personally have lost (2) friendships that were over 25 years old thanks to political discussions. 

When times are good, political discussions are OK, but now is not the time . . .

I say this because I am probably one of the worse when it comes to this . . .

My 2 cents . . .

Steve


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## BruceK (Dec 16, 2009)

I voted no but would not be upset if one of the other alternatives was established.  Personally I don't see the need for this.


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## Texatdurango (Dec 16, 2009)

jeff said:


> ......*These sort of discussions enlighten and educate us, and can help us establish new friendships and understand different viewpoints.* .....!


Sorry Jeff, while the above comment sounds good in theory it's probably the farthest thing from reality.

I was a member of a huge online RV forum for several years and most got along with each other and most respected each others opinions and minor disagreements would flair up now and then but that was to be expected.

They too decided to start a forum where political discussions were allowed. It didn't take two weeks before it was full of the nastiest, mean spirited posts you ever read and the worst part was that some of the attitudes quickly spilled out into the rest of the forums. Where once minor disagreements were held occasionally, people looked for any reason to disrupt threads to take pot shots at their "new enemies", folks that used to be their friends!

I voted NO, It's one thing knowing there are pinheads on the forum, it's another thing knowing who they are!  :biggrin:

I vote YES to sticking to pens.


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## Displaced Canadian (Dec 16, 2009)

I voted no. I have seen threads wander down those paths and people start to say their opinions then insult anyone who disagrees with them. Many years ago I went to a regional student convention for christian schools. We were strictly forbidden from talking about religion because the topic usually gets heated and nobody is willing to change their mind. 
 I do pay attention to politics. I'm not a citizen so I can't vote. I do not discuss politics at work because like religion people have strong opinions. I don't see how the conversation would stay civil.


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## fiferb (Dec 16, 2009)

I voted no, I've already seen one good friend here stop coming because their were political opinions creeping into the discussions. I can only see this as devisive in the long run.


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## NewLondon88 (Dec 16, 2009)

nava1uni said:


> " However, they can also be divisive and distracting unless everyone involved can bring to the discussion a tolerance for other opinions, and personal respect for the people with different ideas."
> 
> Only if this statement can be honored and without anger at the difference of opinions.



History is rife with evidence that it can't happen. 
.. even BEFORE online forums.


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## its_virgil (Dec 16, 2009)

I vote no. I've been around here quite awhile. I love this place as a penturning place. I understand the other (non penmaking)forums help us develop a sense of community and espri de corp but, I don't see your comment below happening regarding politics. Let's keep politics (and religion) where they belong. I have strong feeling and convistions about both but there are other places I can share those feelings and convictions. But, I'm just one vote. 
Do a good turn daily!
Don




jeff said:


> ...unless everyone involved can bring to the discussion a tolerance for other opinions, and personal respect for the people with different ideas.


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## alamocdc (Dec 16, 2009)

I voted no. Even in an opt in forum, we are all people.  Not only do people have differing opinions on such things as politics (and religion), many tend to be very passionate about those opinions (right, wrong or indifferent).  That said, a topic of converstion could not help but lead to name calling, or someone getting his or her panties in a bunch over something someone else wrote.

I see no good coming from it what so ever.  Me, I have thick skin and while a snide comment might **** me off, I'd get over it.  It's already happened on this forum a number of times (though not recently).  Others do not seem to have that ability.  Call me what ever you like, but note that I feel free to consider the source, if you get my drift.  I'm sorry guys, I just don't see the benefit.  But that's me.


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## jimofsanston (Dec 16, 2009)

I vote no. There again it has nothing to do with Pens and Turning in general.


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## Phunky_2003 (Dec 16, 2009)

I voted no.


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## JerrySambrook (Dec 16, 2009)

If I had not hit the no button already, I would have voted yes, just to go against the grain.


NOT


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## ed4copies (Dec 16, 2009)

philipf said:


> Don't we have enough hate and discontent going on all over the place without contaminating this site? I bailed out of WOW for the political leftist views that would not be quiet. I do not want to bail out of IAP! Philip, *Retired Admiral*


 
A sincere "Thank-you" for your career!!


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## fritz64 (Dec 16, 2009)

no no no a tuousand times NO


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## fritz64 (Dec 16, 2009)

thousand times NO


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## jasontg99 (Dec 16, 2009)

Steve Busey said:


> No thanks - there are plenty of venues on the web to vent about politics.


 
Agreed.  Another vote for "No".


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## johnnycnc (Dec 16, 2009)

A big NO vote.


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## bitshird (Dec 16, 2009)

Unfortunately, politics is seeping into our hobby through legislation, and probably will be getting more involved with the concern over deforestation and forest preservation. Not that I suspect any of our input would alter this situation BUT, it is going to become a political football which will to some extent impact our pen turning, so I vote yes.


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## GaryMGg (Dec 16, 2009)

I think if you do it, and Opt-in format wherein the default is opted-out works best.
Too many individuals have shown they're incapable of having a reasoned discussion about things
(anything: politics, economics, religion, finishing , et al.) when they disagree with the posted thought.

I'd add that with an Opt-in participation requirement those who don't want it are unaffected.


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## txbob (Dec 16, 2009)

I come here to learn about pen turning, not politics.

Merry Christmas,
txbob


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## dalemcginnis (Dec 16, 2009)

I too am against the political discussions.   While I have no problems discussing politics in person and remaining friends with those I disagree with.  I have found it is much more difficult doing that on a board.  In person if you make a statement that is misunderstood you can recognize and correct the error much sooner.  Online by the time you find it out it is usually too late to clarify.

If you must have a political discussion forum make sure it is one that is easily blocked as I for one will be avoiding it like the plague.  Also do not allow any references or links to the subforum in any other forum.


I prefer the current misconceptions I have that the people on this site are as intelligent as me and do not want them changed by a political discussion:biggrin:


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## penhead (Dec 16, 2009)

Wow...an opt in forum where people who getted pissed at others when disagreements get hot,.. and will suddenly jump to another forum and shake (virtual) hands and all will be well and best of friends again...well, untill they both go back to the opt in forum where they can flame each other till asbestos jackets melt...sure that'll work...besides i think republicans should pay more for a pen than democrats anyway...

I vote no..if you are keeping count.


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## ed4copies (Dec 16, 2009)

penhead said:


> Wow...an opt in forum where people who getted pissed at others when disagreements get hot,.. and will suddenly jump to another forum and shake (virtual) hands and all will be well and best of friends again...well, untill they both go back to the opt in forum where they can flame each other till asbestos jackets melt...sure that'll work...besides i think republicans should pay more for a pen than democrats anyway...
> 
> I vote no..if you are keeping count.


 
Now, see, our first area of AGREEMENT!!!

*I too believe both Republicans and Democrats should PAY for my pens!!!!!!*


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## Randy_ (Dec 17, 2009)

txbob said:


> I come here to learn about pen turning, not politics.
> 
> Merry Christmas,
> txbob


 
Short and sweet.....my sentiments, exactly!!
 
Another "NO".


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## rjwolfe3 (Dec 17, 2009)

I am beginning to agree with not having a political forum but I am puzzled by all of the "pen turning only" comments I am seeing. If that were the case, then what would be the point of the casual forum. I joined this forum for more then just information, I joined for friendships and networking. If I wanted just pen turning information I could have read books and watched videos!


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## jleiwig (Dec 17, 2009)

rjwolfe3 said:


> I am beginning to agree with not having a political forum but I am puzzled by all of the "pen turning only" comments I am seeing. If that were the case, then what would be the point of the casual forum. I joined this forum for more then just information, I joined for friendships and networking. If I wanted just pen turning information I could have read books and watched videos!


 
Exactly..it's always a puzzlement to me when people chime in on casual conversation posts asking what it has to do with pen turning.  

The Headline of the casual conversation forum says:

*Casual Conversation* Off-topic, general chat

I've also noticed it only happens on posts where people disagree, not on posts where people are bragging on themselves/friends/family or prayer requests or anything else.  It's like people are ok having the casual conversation forum as long as everyone agrees and plays nice, but life just isn't like that.


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## traderdon55 (Dec 17, 2009)

A couple of years ago I sold my business and the most important thing I tried to teach the man that bought it is you NEVER discuss politics or religion with your customers as that is the quickest way to loose them. Many people have strong feelings one way or another and with a group this large there is going to be some some hard feelings if we open it up to this type of discussion. I would prefer that everyone stay friends and leave politics out of it so I have to vote NO!!


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## Gin N' Tonic (Dec 17, 2009)

DCBluesman said:


> Do what you must, but keep in mind that while you can blow out a candle, you can't blow out a fire.




I disagree. Ever see an oil well fire extinguished?


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## DocStram (Dec 17, 2009)

I voted "No" for the following reasons:

a. Past history of IAP clearly demonstrates that we fail miserably when trying to separate "politics" from "religion".   For many Americans, politics is a religion . .   and . . . our religion has become political.  The two have become intertwined in our daily lives.

b. As Lou stated earlier, the "I" in IAP stands for International.  Our political discussions will most certainly be focused on politics in the US.  

c. The IAP Mission Statement reads as follows:  
_"The goal of the IAP is to give pen makers a place to enhance their skills, share experiences, and promote the art of pen making."   _

In my opinion, having a forum on politics, even if it is an "opt in" feature, will only serve to divide us . . . heavily moderated or not.  Consider our past history in IAP. Look at how political comments in posts have had a negative effect already . . .  and driven members away (including me).

And, finally . . .  efforts would be better served by putting energy into the advancement of penmaking.  Having a forum on politics will likely consume negative energy that can be better spent in a positive manner on the fulfillment of IAP's Mission Statement.

Just my thoughts  .  .  .


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## great12b4ever (Dec 17, 2009)

I voted NO.  It is too easy for people to forget how to be civil, and I have seen good life long friends not speak to each other for years over a discussion of politics and/or religion.  I still think it owuld be best to leave things just the way they are.  It has worked pretty well so far, and I have been blessed with some good friends on the IAP and I know I have a few well, lets just say not so good friends.

The IAP has responded well to peoples needs and has been very generous in helping someone who truly needs help.  I think that if political or religious threads were allowed it would cool somes desire to help someone else who may differ with their viewpoint.

If it ain't broke, it don't nedd fixing!!


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## dustmaker (Dec 17, 2009)

I can't make the decision for you, Jeff, but one would have to simply answer this question: Would such a forum enhance or detract from this wonderful website?
Upon reading all the comment here this morning, it seems the way is clear.


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## jkeithrussell (Dec 17, 2009)

jleiwig said:


> I've also noticed it only happens on posts where people disagree, not on posts where people are bragging on themselves/friends/family or prayer requests or anything else. It's like people are ok having the casual conversation forum as long as everyone agrees and plays nice, but life just isn't like that.


 
I think that's precisely the point.  People aren't likely to start flaming each other and calling names in a post about Aunt May's pumpkin pie.  A post about the health care legislation, however, is very obviously going to lead to exactly such posts.  So what is gained from having a forum to post such topics?  It looks like more than a majority who have posted to this thread think that nothing is gained from it, and I agree.


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## jleiwig (Dec 17, 2009)

jkeithrussell said:


> I think that's precisely the point. People aren't likely to start flaming each other and calling names in a post about Aunt May's pumpkin pie. A post about the health care legislation, however, is very obviously going to lead to exactly such posts. So what is gained from having a forum to post such topics? It looks like more than a majority who have posted to this thread think that nothing is gained from it, and I agree.


 
Taken completely out of context, but I was referring to the people who are asking "What does it have to do with penturning?" about Jeff's request for feedback on politics.  

It's the same people who make the same "What does it have to do with penturning?" comments in other volatile threads, but yet they don't do it in any other type of threads as I mentioned above.  

I mean if I went into any thread about asking for prayers for a loved one and asked "What does it have to do with penturning?", I'd be labeled a heretic and flamed to dust for being insensitive and mean.

It just ticks me off.  If your going to make that type of comment in one type of post, either don't make it at all, or make it in *ALL* posts in the casual conversation forum.....that's all I'm saying....regardless of it being a political post in nature or any other type of post in this forum.


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## Russianwolf (Dec 17, 2009)

You also have to remember that there is a LOT of misinformation out there from all sides. Is this really the place that we want to try to educate people on that (especially when some, maybe not those here, will refuse to believe it regardless).


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## snyiper (Dec 17, 2009)

It seems like it is just a babysitting service to not have that forum. People need to learn how not to click on a subject that may be bothersome to them for example. I dont do cigar pens yet so I generally do not follow those threads I may look at the pics or read a tutorial but I dont respond because it is of no interest to me now. I find if you keep people from subjects that they may have feeling about you are censoring them but it is a websight and I will go with the webmasters choice. Those that vote no should "opt out" let those that have thicker skin that want to discuss things do so.
My political and religious views are indeed mine and just because you dont agree that is fine we can agree to disagree!! Sure I agree topics get heated so what you dont like it "opt out" seems pretty simple. It is a little like asking who wants pumpkin pie who wants apple oh well the apple is wanted more so no pumpkin pie. Unless it is a moderation hardship I think it should be allowed, it would be a place for responsible adults who can debate in a friendly mannor..Dunno just my .02


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## NewLondon88 (Dec 17, 2009)

snyiper said:


> My political and religious views are indeed mine and just because you dont agree that is fine we can agree to disagree!! Sure I agree topics get heated so what you dont like it "opt out" seems pretty simple. It is a little like asking who wants pumpkin pie who wants apple oh well the apple is wanted more so no pumpkin pie. Unless it is a moderation hardship I think it should be allowed, it would be a place for responsible adults who can debate in a friendly mannor..Dunno just my .02



I think a more accurate analogy would be that you're a dinner guest at
the Pumpkin Pie Factory and someone brings apple pie and has a food fight.

Perhaps it would be easier to re-phrase the question:
"Should we change the essential nature of Penturner.org to allow 
political discussions?"

Political discussions already pollute other threads and discussion can
become heated.. and that's now, while they're not even allowed. I can
only imagine what it will be like if the forums open up. I can't believe that
these discussions will limit themselves to certain threads.

I guess the "Opt-Out" button will read "Delete Membership"


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## LizardSpit (Dec 17, 2009)

My vote is:

* Pen turning & friendship on this site
* Politics & religion on a site dedicated those topics


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## GaryMadore (Dec 17, 2009)

I fear that animosty born in the political forum(s) might spill over into the rest of them, regardless of content.

For example, Let's say that a heated debate between diametrically opposed left and right wing loons erupts in the approved forum. It degenerates into a name calling and value slamming circus, polarizes the participants and poisons people's perceptions of one-another (how 'bout that alliteration?). The topic of discussion might well remain in the approved fora however the ill feelings will be carried forth by some (no, not everyone is able to rise above base human nature) and will colour future opinions, recommendations of vendors, etc., etc.

Yes, people who don't want to participate can simply avoid the circus, but we cannot all avoid the envenomed atmosphere that WILL result.

This place is politics and religion free. I say let's keep it that way.

Cheers!

Gary


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## jeff (Dec 17, 2009)

I thank you all for the votes and your comments.

I think you've provided plenty of data for us to chew on.

Don't hold your breath waiting for political discussions to ensue. :wink:


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