# Arizona Silhouette



## massman (Feb 23, 2009)

I've read a post somewhere around here that AS is no longer associated with IAP. I cleary see that AS is not sponsoring the 5th Birthday Bash. Does anyone know why?  I have been part of IAP since I turned my first pen almost 2 1/2 years ago and have purchased more than $4,000 is pen kits and other supplies from AS in that time. I did have one minor run-in with Bill about something and quickly learned he can be short fused. 
The only reason I ever even heard of AS was because of the IAP and our members. If he isn't going to support Jeff and his staff and the IAP, why would I support him? I can only imagine how much sales this membership has sent his way in the last five years. I have been getting away from AS and have had a fantastic experience with Ernie at Beartooth where he put together a desperatly needed order for me before he left town that same day I called! I also have enjoyed doing some business with Ryan and his team and Woodturningz. The only thing I need that AS has exclusively is the TSW.   Sorry for being long winded, but I support those who support the IAP. I did send an email to Bill asking why he wasn't supporting IAP and have not heard anything back as of today.

Bernie


----------



## spiritwoodturner (Feb 23, 2009)

Don't know about the particulars, but Ernie's great. I just now emailed him asking why he doesn't sell Barons. At least, they're not on his site. I didn't check Woodturningz, but I will. Bill does lack, in my experience, a bit of the customer service polish of, say, an Ernie or CSUSA. But in this case he has what I want (notice I didn't say NEED-there's always choices) and it was convenient enough.

Dale

Note: Just checked Woodturningz, and he does PSI stuff, of which I'm not the biggest fan, with a few exceptions. I didn't think he had Berea stuff, but wanted to check again. Ever notice how, of the "Big 3", Craft Supplies is the only one without a dealer network? That tells me they are good at the customer service part, they are committed to customer service and love doing it, and don't find the customer an inconvenience. They will crawl through broken glass to help you, and I plainly have not found that with the other 2 suppliers, although I second the thoughts on Ernie. Just my opinion...


----------



## jackrichington (Feb 23, 2009)

CSU is the top of the heap service-wize  NO DOUBT  NO QUESTION   Have never in my life on any product had a supplier better or even near it..They are thrilled to help with anything..missing a part in your kit.?.they put one in the mail..no questions..they even apologize.yikes.. I will keep Beartooth in mind on future orders becasue of the info from this forum


----------



## devowoodworking (Feb 23, 2009)

You can get Lou's TSW here;

http://www.penturners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=43070


----------



## bitshird (Feb 23, 2009)

massman said:


> I've read a post somewhere around here that AS is no longer associated with IAP. I cleary see that AS is not sponsoring the 5th Birthday Bash. Does anyone know why?  I did have one minor run-in with Bill about something and quickly learned he can be short fused.
> The only reason I ever even heard of AS was because of the IAP and our members. If he isn't going to support Jeff and his staff and the IAP, why would I support him? The only thing I need that AS has exclusively is the TSW.   Sorry for being long winded, but I support those who support the IAP. I did send an email to Bill asking why he wasn't supporting IAP and have not heard anything back as of today.
> 
> Bernie



Bernie, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for a response, possibly he's tweaked because there have been so many posts concerning his style of customer etiquette, but I've never had any problems since I have only dealt with him on his terms, Web sales, and no phone calls. Someone else has a pen called the Navigator which is the same as the Baron. I do hope that this was just an oversight by him in not supporting the IAP birthday bash, who knows maybe he just has more money and customers than he needs or wants, I don't think I'll be ordering from him in light of this.


----------



## ed4copies (Feb 23, 2009)

To "spiritwoodturner":

Point of historical information:  CSUSA used to have dealers.  In fact, Bill WAS a dealer for them.  CSUSA decided to eliminate ALL dealer channels, through no fault of any dealers (Including and especially Arizona Silhouette - I believe they were the largest reseller and Bill got abused -IN MY OPINION).  

However, since CSUSA has taken this path, they HAVE had greater control over "oooppppsses" - so the decision may have been good for CSUSA's long-term customer relations.

JUST FOR HISTORICAL ACCURACY.


----------



## hughbie (Feb 23, 2009)

i have ordered from AS, CSUSA, PSI,  and beartooth woods.......i've not had any problem with any of them.

so, can anyone answer the original question......is AS no longer a part of IAP?


----------



## lwalden (Feb 23, 2009)

Bill may be a bit of a curmudgeon, and may have dropped his participation here, but I intend to continue doing business with him for a number of items. I recall a time when he called me to tell me he was not going to ship the blanks I'd ordered on line, because he was fairly sure they weren't what I wanted- and he was right. And I can almost guarantee no one has ever had one of his shipments come open in the mail during transit and arrived with items missing- anyone who's ordered from him previously knows what I'm talking about. If some chose to only do business with vendors that support IAP, I certainly respect their right to have that as one of their criteria, but I don't see that as being a deal killer for me...........


----------



## ed4copies (Feb 23, 2009)

Hughbie-


Yes, Bill B requested that his membership be terminated and Jeff did as he asked.  I know this to be an accurate fact.


----------



## hughbie (Feb 23, 2009)

i can accept that as well........thanks ed.....


----------



## Texatdurango (Feb 23, 2009)

I haven’t ordered anything from Bill in 1 1/2 years so this has no effect on me since many of his prices can easily be beaten by other vendors if one just looks around a little.  But even if I were a current steady customer I wouldn’t stop doing business with him because of the decision he made.  He had his reasons and that’s that!
 
Ordering from him now is no different than ordering blanks from any of dozens of ebay sellers or tools from 1-800-Watt, MCI, SHARS, VME or KBC, none of which are associated with the IAP that I am aware of.


----------



## OldWrangler (Feb 23, 2009)

I have bought thousands of dollars of pen supplies from Bill and have asked some questions to which I received answers I thought were surly or offensive but I understand that Bill is one that may have a short fuse and I could have hit him at a bad time. We all have our bad days. 

His merchandise has always been the best quality, he always send a freebie or two and he never  takes more than a day to get the order out. His prices are fair, he doesn't gouge for shipping and he does answer his emails. He carries a lot of stuff and is rarely out of anything.

I am sorry he has chosen not to support the IAP but I will not be part of any group seeking to boycott him into returning. That is not a tactic I approve of and I think the IAP does not have to do anything like that. I will continue to support Bill and recommend him to friends.

Bill, if you are listening and reading these comments, please note how seriously some of the turners are and please consider our business is worth your support.


----------



## marcruby (Feb 23, 2009)

Given the way he's been treated he on and off that wouldn't surprise me in the least.  I'll stick with him.  He may not be the most amiable sort, but he's a meticulously honest and careful businessman.  If the IAP decides to become the home of the boycott you can count me out.

I'm curious though.  Was that a private request to Jeff.  If it was public, did he happen to give a reason?

Marc




ed4copies said:


> Hughbie-
> 
> 
> Yes, Bill B requested that his membership be terminated and Jeff did as he asked.  I know this to be an accurate fact.


----------



## ed4copies (Feb 23, 2009)

Since I was involved in the bash planning and prize distribution, the AS question was answered.


----------



## marcruby (Feb 23, 2009)

I don't think you answered my question.


----------



## jeff (Feb 23, 2009)

Bill did indeed request that his membership be terminated, which I reluctantly did many months ago. This was his private business decision and there is no reason to second-guess it. Bill has always treated me in a gentlemanly and respectful way, and while he was a member, he supported us very generously.


----------



## jeff (Feb 23, 2009)

marcruby said:


> ... Was that a private request to Jeff.



All communication on this issue was conducted privately between Bill and I.


----------



## marcruby (Feb 23, 2009)

I'm a bit more concerned that a private action has been made public.  Not why Bill made his decision.  That's inappropriate if it's the case.

Marc


----------



## MesquiteMan (Feb 23, 2009)

marcruby said:


> ...If the IAP decides to become the home of the boycott you can count me out.
> Marc


 
THERE WILL BE NO BOYCOTT of Arizona Silhouette here at IAP!

The bottom line is Mr. Baumback asked to be removed as a member of IAP and did not give us a clear reason. That is his choice and we are sorry to lose his participation. 

We DO NOT discourage anyone from buying from any supplier they choose and will not allow any kind of boycott to be instigated at this site.


Thanks!

Curtis O. Seebeck
IAP Head Moderator


----------



## jeff (Feb 23, 2009)

marcruby said:


> I'm a bit more concerned that a private action has been made public.  Not why Bill made his decision.  That's inappropriate if it's the case.
> Marc


Lots of people know that he's no longer a member. I assume that Bill himself or his friends have made that known to various people. If you have a specific concern about this, please PM me.


----------



## MesquiteMan (Feb 23, 2009)

Marc,

What would you choose to be done when someone asks the management "What happened to AS's links" or "Why can't I find AS's profile or send a PM?"  Are we to just play dumb and lie to the current member?


----------



## marcruby (Feb 23, 2009)

The circumstances of the decision are private information:

Try one of the following three responses - 
1) mention that the members list is current,
2) AS or Bill are not members with no further discussion,
3) or even no response at all since the list is there to see.

I don't see any of those responses as playing dumb or lying.

Marc


----------



## MesquiteMan (Feb 23, 2009)

Mark,  No one has discussed any circumstances at all, other than the fact that Mr. B is no longer a member.  So we have done basically what you think should have been done.


----------



## spiritwoodturner (Feb 23, 2009)

Ed, thanks for "the rest of the story"! My dealings are only about 4 years old. It's kinda hard for me to see Bill abused, it's a bit like thinking you can abuse a porcupine, but I'll take your version of it to heart. Bottom line is, more than a few people have shared their 'curmudgeon" stories, or made some sort of excuses for him. To me, there are 2 kinds of businesses-1 that thinks customers are gold and understand NOTHING happens without them, and then there are those that think customers need to conform to their wishes and demands. I generally deal with the first group only. Call me silly, but I'm a "path of least resistance" kinda guy. If CS ever "abused' him, by golly it seems like the only time they ever abused anyone, 'cause all they've ever done to me is fawned over me.

Now, I was the first to respond to this thread, but I don't think I even hinted at a boycott. Holy cow, I have an order outstanding with him right now, admittedly only because he has what I want. If Ernie could carry them, I'd get them from him, but if I can't get them at all the world won't end. How did we get to talk of a "boycott"? I would rather support those who support me, but it's not my only criteria. 

Seems the ante got raised here somewhere...

Dale


----------



## jack barnes (Feb 23, 2009)

What does it matter one way or other? He decided he didn't wish to be a member any longer and I for one will respect that. I will continue ordering from him.

Jack


----------



## Verne (Feb 23, 2009)

Me too and I will still call him freind!
Vern


----------



## marcruby (Feb 23, 2009)

I'm afraid I disagree with you, which is my privilege, of course.

Marc



MesquiteMan said:


> Mark,  No one has discussed any circumstances at all, other than the fact that Mr. B is no longer a member.  So we have done basically what you think should have been done.


----------



## hughbie (Feb 23, 2009)

wow.....it's amazing how a simple question can turn rancid.......i'll continue to do business with who i want to, and AS is one of them........

why has this gone the direction that it has?  i think it's time to move on.....just my two cents


----------



## massman (Feb 23, 2009)

I am surprised to see how much "chatter" my original post has caused. I want to be clear on a couple of things. The IAP has fueled a passion for me to turn pens since day one in June of 2006. I am very grateful to have this website on my favorites. I have always supported the vendors that have supported IAP first. I do not NEED to know what happened between Bill and the IAP. I certainly have not asked or attempted to persuade anyone to not buy from AS. Bill has been good to me, but I have been good to Bill as well. I will buy from AS when I need to for certain Baron style pens, but will look to those who are listed on IAP first. We have the right to buy from anyone we want and I respect Bill and his company. I suggest we just let it go and I do regret my initial post.


----------



## Glenn McCullough (Feb 23, 2009)

Ok, done then...good night John Boy! Lights out!  Program over.




massman said:


> I am surprised to see how much "chatter" my original post has caused. I want to be clear on a couple of things. The IAP has fueled a passion for me to turn pens since day one in June of 2006. I am very grateful to have this website on my favorites. I have always supported the vendors that have supported IAP first. I do not NEED to know what happened between Bill and the IAP. I certainly have not asked or attempted to persuade anyone to not buy from AS. Bill has been good to me, but I have been good to Bill as well. I will buy from AS when I need to for certain Baron style pens, but will look to those who are listed on IAP first. We have the right to buy from anyone we want and I respect Bill and his company. I suggest we just let it go and I do regret my initial post.


----------



## Skye (Feb 23, 2009)




----------



## babyblues (Feb 23, 2009)

As I understand it, AS has exclusive rights to distribute the Baron in the US aside from Berea of course.  That's why you won't find it anywhere else.  CSUSA's Jr. Gentlemen and PSI's Navigator look almost identical, but the Baron can only be purchased in the US through AS or Berea.

It's a shame that he's not a member, but it might not be that he's disgruntled.  Either way, I'll give him my business.  I think that Bill does an excellent job.  I don't care what his personality is like, he does a top notch, A+++ job running his business.  I've never had problems with an order, never received an order late and he always includes a freebie.  He carries top quality stuff and it's easy to order from his site.  I've never understood the mentality that anyone should move mountains for me just because I'm a customer, but that could just be me.  I, for one, don't think he has done anything to deserve being crucified here numerous times.  If he rubs you the wrong way, you don't have to like it, but tact would dictate keeping it private.


----------



## TellicoTurning (Feb 23, 2009)

I didn't know Mr. Baumback had withdrawn his membership, but for my money it's immaterial.. the few times I've ordered from him were relatively pleasant experience.

Edit:  And to not keep beating a dead horse, whatever his thoughts are for resignation, they really aren't for us to know or worry about, unless our council was sought before hand.  Mr. B. may be just lightening his load and commitments.  At any rate, his services have been good for the IAP and there have been many many threads about how great his service has been, etc etc... I for one don't believe that "he doesn't plan to have anything to do with IAP".  At any rate, I plan to continue to buy from him should I be in need or want one or more of his products.  

I wish him well, good health and continued good fortune.


----------



## Ligget (Feb 24, 2009)

What annoys me is what Curtis said on another thread:

 quote
"Mr. Baumbeck requested to have his membership removed and no longer wants anything to do with IAP". unquote

I used to buy stuff indirectly from AS via members in the USA, no more though!


----------



## Constant Laubscher (Feb 24, 2009)

After reading all the comments here about AS and its owner and after I went through a situation like this myself I can clearly see why he does not want to have anything to do with this forum. Most of the members here are great people but then there are those who are more like a cancer and just like to pile on with no real facts.
I found that here are a lot of members that hide behind a computer screen and like to look so "Cool" but you are nothing but just a double faced $%^&#.
Please wear the shoe if it fits - I have more shoes if we run out!

Is the next thing to stop supporting those who support AS? Get real here please, don't cut your nose to spite your face!

I still support AS and all other who has what I need to enjoy my hobby.


----------



## massman (Feb 24, 2009)

Last post for this thread please! 

I mentioned that I emailed Bill about this, I did hear back from Bill and respect him for that.


----------



## workinforwood (Feb 24, 2009)

I just ordered from AS and received my package.  I ordered a few more of the closed end mandrels as well and to my surprise received a free video <yo-yo-spin>'s vid.  THANKS BILL !!!

So he doesn't like phone calls.  I don't like to talk on the phone either.  If you simply do what you are told over the internet with his order form, the important stuff is dealt with quick and efficient.  If you have a question about something like a product, you are better off asking it here than from him regardless how fast he gets back to you on that.  That goes for any vendor merchandise.  You'll get a broader more honest opinion here than from any vendor and all your questions will be well answered.


----------



## artistwood (Feb 24, 2009)

i started looking at this site in november when i turned my first pen in a class. i have appreciated all the comments and advise from the members as i know it has greatly improved my skills. what i don't like about this forum is the constant "pile-ons" as you call them. i thought this was a pen forum. was i wrong? i do not appreciate the occasional bashing of members or non members that goes on here. if surviving a near death and surgery has taught me anything, is that we are all different. if you don't like someone, that's ok.....i just don't need to know about it. if we have a bad vendor, that's useful information i can deal with as a busuness, not on a personal level. every vendor has bad experiences with customers and customers with bad vendors. it doesn't make them bad. i had good nurses with a terrible bedside manner and ones with good manners that weren't worth anything. point is, please don't rant on a personal level about anyone. if it's business, keep it business......period. 

i have seen these pile-ons several times in spite of the moderators comments......it's sad to watch.  i'd like to be indignant and rant myself and go on about how i will never watch this site again because of the personal attacks but the truth is that the IAP is full of some really great people and awsome advise and i have made friends that don't even know it yet. if i have to see the pile-ons, well......there's always another thread.....my 2 cents worth....
thanks......bear


----------



## jeff (Feb 24, 2009)

How is this a pile-on? There are nearly equal comments on both sides of the issue.  It seems like every time there is any kind of spirited discussion that has some uncomfortable aspect to it, someone makes a post exactly like this -- "I don't like this site because of the pile-ons." 

People are discussing a business and the policies and practices of its owner. I don't see a single "personal attack." Am I blind???  What is a "personal attack"?  What are the exact words that constitute a personal attack? 

The problem here is one of the great aspects of this site - strong friendships. Here's yet another situation where the subject of discussion is a great friend to many. People don't like any even slightly negative comments about their friends. Perhaps the solution to getting upset about these sort of discussions is to be a little tolerant of the fact that we don't all have the same friends. 

We make every attempt to come down on the correct side when judging whether or not something is a "personal attack", but there is a subjective aspect. Nobody is going to agree. Believe me, there are just as many people who feel this is a perfectly reasonable conversation to have as there are who feel it's not. 

We CAN make some additional rules:

"Absolutely no discussion about anything negative."
"No mention of anyone by name."
"Posts with any complaints will be deleted."

Is that what we want? 



artistwood said:


> i started looking at this site in november when i turned my first pen in a class. i have appreciated all the comments and advise from the members as i know it has greatly improved my skills. what i don't like about this forum is the constant "pile-ons" as you call them. i thought this was a pen forum. was i wrong? i do not appreciate the occasional bashing of members or non members that goes on here. if surviving a near death and surgery has taught me anything, is that we are all different. if you don't like someone, that's ok.....i just don't need to know about it. if we have a bad vendor, that's useful information i can deal with as a busuness, not on a personal level. every vendor has bad experiences with customers and customers with bad vendors. it doesn't make them bad. i had good nurses with a terrible bedside manner and ones with good manners that weren't worth anything. point is, please don't rant on a personal level about anyone. if it's business, keep it business......period.
> 
> i have seen these pile-ons several times in spite of the moderators comments......it's sad to watch.  i'd like to be indignant and rant myself and go on about how i will never watch this site again because of the personal attacks but the truth is that the IAP is full of some really great people and awsome advise and i have made friends that don't even know it yet. if i have to see the pile-ons, well......there's always another thread.....my 2 cents worth....
> thanks......bear


----------



## Skip_Evans (Feb 24, 2009)

What is  TSW????


----------



## maxwell_smart007 (Feb 24, 2009)

I'm with Jeff on this: I didn't see a personal attack at all. A question was asked about Arizona Silhouette.  Those in the know answered the question with the plain and simple facts.

More facts: Some have indicated that they will not deal with him anymore; for this reason or another one.   Curtis indicated that they are not asking anyone to refrain from dealing with Bill - he did not leave on bad terms.  He left on good terms, for his own reasons, apparently.

So there seems to be no personal attacks.  Some have stated that Bill is their friend, or a good supplier, and will continue to use him as such...others have said that they will not...it appears to be a very civil discussion. 

If you don't like negative comments, perhaps one had best stay away from Arizona Silhouette threads; like it or not, Bill apparently has a cantankerous approach that seeds negative comments about his personality and/or business practices...he also gets high praise from others, so it really depends what side of the fence you are on!  

For me, it doesn't matter at all, as Bill has always refused to ship up here, so I have no personal dealings with him one way or another.  Luckily, there are some very generous suppliers who help us "internationals" out! 

Call it a pile-on if you like...but to me, it's a discussion.


----------



## maxwell_smart007 (Feb 24, 2009)

Skip_Evans said:


> What is  TSW????



Trade Secret for Wood....no idea what it is though - wax of some sort?


----------



## Constant Laubscher (Feb 24, 2009)

It is fine to have all these discussions but I know first hand what it feels like to be on the receiving end of "discussions" similar to this one. Believe me I have had the same response as others when dealing with AS by phone.
I my case ("Constant pile on") many/most made it right on what was said but all  comments will stay on the web forever for anyone to find. 
Know this old saying? " THE PEN IS MIGHTIER THAN THE SWORD" 
If this was a sword or gun forum, you just imagine?


----------



## OldWrangler (Feb 24, 2009)

Want someone to beat up on? How about PSI? It has been over 2 weeks since I ordered a Barracuda Chuck and when I call and ask, they tell me it was shipped but have no tracking numbers. UPS has no record when I call them. They must have taped it to a turtle and pointed him at Texas. I've got about $300 in this order (with some other stuff) and I really need that chuck. 

I have never had this problem with AS. They ship immediately but this long delay with PSI is the norm. I have always had to wait for their stuff. Let's beat up on them. Come on, pile on!!!!   Maybe they will hear us.    But probably not!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## mick (Feb 24, 2009)

Dear IAP,
 You know, I spent the whole day in the shop yesterday and it was so relaxing...................and enjoyable!  :biggrin:

Mick

PS ...Come on guys lets get back on track here!


----------



## Texatdurango (Feb 24, 2009)

maxwell_smart007 said:


> Trade Secret for Wood....no idea what it is though - wax of some sort?


 
TSW is yet another touchy subject around the forum.  If you really don't know what TSW is, do an IAP search on TSW and you will find that there are probably as many threads about it as there are threads about Arizona Silhoutte!  And there really shouldn't be half as many of either!  

I'm with Mick, time to head out to the shop for the rest of the day.


----------



## spiritwoodturner (Feb 24, 2009)

maxwell_smart007 said:


> I'm with Jeff on this: I didn't see a personal attack at all. A question was asked about Arizona Silhouette.  Those in the know answered the question with the plain and simple facts.
> 
> More facts: Some have indicated that they will not deal with him anymore; for this reason or another one.   Curtis indicated that they are not asking anyone to refrain from dealing with Bill - he did not leave on bad terms.  He left on good terms, for his own reasons, apparently.
> 
> ...



You know, Andrew, this is one of the most thoughtful posts I've read on this subject or any here on IAP. It sees the big picture, it allows for discussion and even disagreement in a thoughtful way, and it really amplifies what Jeff said.

Very good job, my friend! I think there's a future Prime Minister or at least Cabinet Member here on IAP!!! You write very well and should write more.

Thanks,
Dale


----------



## DCBluesman (Feb 24, 2009)

maxwell_smart007 said:


> Trade Secret for Wood....no idea what it is though - wax of some sort?


 
From October 2004:



> Here's my two cents on Renaissance Wax and the differences between it and TSW-1121.
> 
> Right off let me start by saying that I have used Renaissance Wax on at least 30 pens. I think it is a great product. It imparts a tremendous gloss when applied correctly. It adds a layer of protection to both the finish of the wood and the finish of the metal parts. From the research I've been able to do, it is a microcrystalline polymer. What does that mean? It means it's a plastic coating. The fact that it's microcrystalline means that it has polishing capabilities and that it will impart a hi-gloss.
> 
> ...


 
TSW-1121 became "President's Choice" and later became TSW. I hope this helps.


----------



## artistwood (Feb 24, 2009)

not a pile on.....only a discussion....i stand corrected. i just seemed kind of harsh to me. i guess the current recession makes my 2 cents worth only a penny. and just to be clear, i like my dealings with AS. they have been helpful on many occasions. and thanks for the advice on not watching AW threads but i will anyway. wife says i'm difficult....i think she's right!
have a good one..bear


----------



## Pen Maker (Feb 24, 2009)

> wife says i'm difficult....i think she's right!


 seems reasonable enough to me... my .02 (10,000) Yen


----------



## chriselle (Feb 24, 2009)

Pen Maker said:


> seems reasonable enough to me... my .02 (10,000) Yen



have ya checked the yen rate lately...?:wink:


----------



## sptfr43 (Feb 24, 2009)

hey old wrangler! I just saw a turtle passing through michigan with a box on it's back. might be the package you are waiting for.


----------



## TellicoTurning (Feb 25, 2009)

OldWrangler said:


> Want someone to beat up on? How about PSI? It has been over 2 weeks since I ordered a Barracuda Chuck and when I call and ask, they tell me it was shipped but have no tracking numbers. UPS has no record when I call them. They must have taped it to a turtle and pointed him at Texas. I've got about $300 in this order (with some other stuff) and I really need that chuck.
> 
> I have never had this problem with AS. They ship immediately but this long delay with PSI is the norm. I have always had to wait for their stuff. Let's beat up on them. Come on, pile on!!!!   Maybe they will hear us.    But probably not!!!!!!!!!!!!



Yours is not the first time I've heard people say PSI shipping is slow, yet I've always had very good luck with their shipping.  I live in the sticks about 12 miles south of nowhere and seem to get all my orders pretty much on time.  'course I am closer to PA than you are and it's probably further across Texas than it is from PA to TX.... 
(While I was in Houston I used to get calls from my agents in Europe to ask if I delivered to El Paso...   I looked it up one day, Los Angeles was closer to El Paso than Houston was)


----------



## wdcav1952 (Feb 25, 2009)

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldWrangler  
Want someone to beat up on? How about PSI? It has been over 2 weeks since I ordered a Barracuda Chuck and when I call and ask, they tell me it was shipped but have no tracking numbers. UPS has no record when I call them. They must have taped it to a turtle and pointed him at Texas. I've got about $300 in this order (with some other stuff) and I really need that chuck. 

I have never had this problem with AS. They ship immediately but this long delay with PSI is the norm. I have always had to wait for their stuff. Let's beat up on them. Come on, pile on!!!! Maybe they will hear us. But probably not!!!!!!!!!!!! 




ozmandus said:


> Yours is not the first time I've heard people say PSI shipping is slow, yet I've always had very good luck with their shipping.  I live in the sticks about 12 miles south of nowhere and seem to get all my orders pretty much on time.  'course I am closer to PA than you are and it's probably further across Texas than it is from PA to TX....
> (While I was in Houston I used to get calls from my agents in Europe to ask if I delivered to El Paso...   I looked it up one day, Los Angeles was closer to El Paso than Houston was)



Like many people say, if we eliminated a lot of the empty desert in Texas, it would be a nice state! :biggrin::tongue::biggrin:


----------



## Verne (Feb 25, 2009)

Now that is just wrong Cav!
Vern


----------



## beck3906 (Feb 25, 2009)

Empty desert?

Better known as a buffer zone.

Gotta go a long way to get to the good stuff.


----------



## Mather323 (Feb 25, 2009)

Six pages of threads for just one person.  My Uncle use to say, if they don't like you they will not talk about you, so Bill must be the most popular Guy in IAP history!


----------



## Constant Laubscher (Feb 25, 2009)

I got more love from the members here, how about 7 pages?


http://www.penturners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=39919


----------



## wdcav1952 (Feb 25, 2009)

Mather323 said:


> Six pages of threads for just one person.  My Uncle use to say, if they don't like you they will not talk about you, so Bill must be the most popular Guy in IAP history!




Obviously, you never saw some of the "Eagle" threads!!!! :rotfl::devil::rotfl:


----------



## jkeithrussell (Feb 26, 2009)

Constant Laubscher said:


> It is fine to have all these discussions but I know first hand what it feels like to be on the receiving end of "discussions" similar to this one. Believe me I have had the same response as others when dealing with AS by phone.
> I my case ("Constant pile on") many/most made it right on what was said but all comments will stay on the web forever for anyone to find.
> Know this old saying? " THE PEN IS MIGHTIER THAN THE SWORD"
> If this was a sword or gun forum, you just imagine?


 
Constant, 

If you sell a product, you should be willing to accept evaluations and comments. If someone deals with you and doesn't like it, they have every right to say so. That's not a pile-on, it's not a "slam," it's just one member trying to help another member avoid a bad situation. I mean this in the abstract, not directly to you personally, but rather in response to your statement. If I say "Constant is an idiot," that's a slam and a personal attack. If I say "I bought a kit from Constant and I found him to be a real pain in the butt," that goes with the territory. 

On a different note, Jeff is absolutely, 100% correct: just because someone disagrees with you, and says so, doesn't make it a pile on or an attack.

Edit to add:  I want to emphasize that I am not saying or implying anything negative about Constant's business practices, just adding to the discussion about pile-ons.


----------



## spiritwoodturner (Feb 26, 2009)

This thread has had the crap beat out of it, but I have to agree completely with what Keith said. I've been biting my tongue about what you've said in this thread, Constant. The 2 situations aren't even close in comparison. The gripes I've had with Bill, while not really major, have been actual, verifiable, and real. He sometimes seems to go out of his way to be abrasive, and it's ongoing. Example: On his site right now, he says "Shipping is not free. You'll be charged for actual shipping" or something very close to that effect. No s**t, I was stupid enough to think he would ship stuff for free. You don't find that kind of statement on most business communications. It's a small window into how he sees his customers. I've had another situation where he could have taken care of something without making me dance to his tune, but that's not important here. Andrew said it best, more than a few people don't like the way he does things, more than a few people do. And my sense is he doesn't give a flying rip either way. And if he wants to get his nose out of joint and leave, who cares, one way or the other? It's about choices, from all sides, and it's still a semi-free country...

Your situation was a perceived wrong that clearly got out of control, that most made right, and while the end result may not have been pleasant it does happen, unfortunately. But the situations are not even close to the same. Yours is over and done with. Bill's is ongoing, by his choices and intent and temperment. Lumping Mr. Baumbeck's "choices" for the way he does his business in with yours is a big mistake, because there is zero similarity as far as basis goes.

Just my thunks,
Dale


----------



## mick (Feb 26, 2009)

mick said:


> Dear IAP,
> You know, I spent the whole day in the shop yesterday and it was so relaxing...................and enjoyable! :biggrin:
> 
> Mick
> ...


 
WOW!...Still going on.....I've had a LOT of shop time .....productive shop time , but you guys feel free to carry on. :biggrin:


----------



## PR_Princess (Feb 26, 2009)

mick said:


> WOW!...Still going on.....I've had a LOT of shop time .....productive shop time



No pictures...didn't happen. :biggrin:


----------



## spiritwoodturner (Feb 26, 2009)

Hey, I'd LOVE to be able to have productive shop time!!!! See my thread about being "Bored". That Oneway SD is looking really good right now...

Dale


----------



## babyblues (Feb 26, 2009)

spiritwoodturner said:


> This thread has had the crap beat out of it, but I have to agree completely with what Keith said. I've been biting my tongue about what you've said in this thread, Constant. The 2 situations aren't even close in comparison. The gripes I've had with Bill, while not really major, have been actual, verifiable, and real. He sometimes seems to go out of his way to be abrasive, and it's ongoing. Example: On his site right now, he says "Shipping is not free. You'll be charged for actual shipping" or something very close to that effect. No s**t, I was stupid enough to think he would ship stuff for free. You don't find that kind of statement on most business communications. It's a small window into how he sees his customers. I've had another situation where he could have taken care of something without making me dance to his tune, but that's not important here. Andrew said it best, more than a few people don't like the way he does things, more than a few people do. And my sense is he doesn't give a flying rip either way. And if he wants to get his nose out of joint and leave, who cares, one way or the other? It's about choices, from all sides, and it's still a semi-free country...



The "Shipping is not free." comment could be taken two ways.  First would be that Bill is being contentious.  Second would be to avoid confusion.  When you get the e-mail confirming your order, the shipping total is not on it.  He waits to calculate shipping until he knows the ACTUAL shipping charge.  I can imagine that he's had quite a few people call him wondering why the final charge on their card or paypal or whatever come through higher than the invoice they received through e-mail.  Do you think that maybe he's just trying to avoid having to take time to explain that?  From what I can gather, he's a busy man, so much so that he doesn't even have time to do turning of his own anymore.  He's really just trying to be fair and I don't see what's so offensive about that.  I can honestly say that I don't know any other online vendors that only charge for actual shipping aside from the good people here at IAP.  There is ALWAYS a handling charge of some sort.  Not with Bill.

Since we're talking about differences here, both personal and factual, let's talk about what people are really bent out of shape about.  Because Bill's not the one bent out of shape.  Nothing was said about his reasons for canceling his membership here, so you assume it's because he's the one bent out of shape?  Bill's personality may come off to you and others as abrasive, but I get the feeling that's just the way he comes off.  There's a difference between someone who is just a jerk and someone who might not say something with just the right tone of voice or in just the right words.  The fact that many people find him abrasive is meaningless because there are just as many people, probably more, that don't.

If you have a problem with the way he does BUSINESS, than fine, voice that concern.  But it seems that you just have a problem with the way he comes off in conversation, which is highly subjective.

I'm just saying.


----------



## spiritwoodturner (Feb 26, 2009)

Weelllll, since you are talking facts here...

You didn't read my entire post. I'm talking about actual incidents, not just his mannerisms. I am not going to go into detail because it doesn't matter. That's been beaten to death here, so I'm moving on. But know my experience is far from "subjective". But how many people here or anywhere are stupid enough to think shipping is free, from anyone? He obviously thinks otherwise.

And you are dead wrong about him being the only one that doesn't charge a handling fee. Craft Supplies not only does not charge a handling fee of any kind, this month they are trying out a "Super Saver" flat shipping fee of 5 bucks. For everything. Try that at AS...

And I really don't care one way or another on this point, but any logical person would figure he got upset by being "bashed" here (it's not bashing, Bill, feedback is GOLD) and packed up his tent and left. Come on, your contention is he got bullied by someone and left for his own safety, and he's not upset about a single thing? Uh, OK, but my guess is something different, but I'll leave it at that because it's immaterial. But when I leave something and take my support with with me, generally it's because I'm not too happy about something. But that's just me. 

Your argument tries to insert that probably more people don't find him abrasive than do, and that those who do are meaningless. Sorry, we're just as "meaningless" as the pro side. I'll take Jeff's and Andrew's assertions that it's probably about 50-50 and leave it at that.

Dale

Dale


----------



## wood-of-1kind (Feb 26, 2009)

spiritwoodturner said:


> Your argument tries to insert that probably more people don't find him abrasive than do, and that those who do are meaningless.
> Dale




Hey, I'll just set up a poll and have the members vote on :

SURLY BB   vs. NON-SURLY BB

Naw, I'll stay out of this discussion and just "observe" from the land to where he doesn't ship.:wink:


----------



## Skye (Feb 26, 2009)

PR_Princess said:


> No pictures...didn't happen. :biggrin:



If I had a nickle for every time a woman told me that...





spiritwoodturner said:


> Craft Supplies not only does not charge a handling fee of any kind, this month they are trying out a "Super Saver" flat shipping fee of 5 bucks.



Well, in BB's defense, his delivery time is probably half of what CSUSA's is and normally cheaper to boot. I've also been annoyed by BB's attitude, but that doesn't negate that the shipping is dang quick.


----------



## nwcatman (Feb 26, 2009)

beck3906 said:


> Empty desert?
> 
> Better known as a buffer zone.
> 
> Gotta go a long way to get to the good stuff.



HEY... i was born and raised in that "buffer zone" and you know what? YOU'RE RIGHT!! thats why i moved away soon as i could. and it only took 50 years. almost as slow as PSI shipping policys.


----------



## GaryMadore (Feb 26, 2009)

PR_Princess said:


> No pictures...didn't happen. :biggrin:



On that note, I heard tell that you were prancing around in a bikini just the other day....

heh

Cheers!

Gary


----------



## GaryMadore (Feb 26, 2009)

I have never bought anything from BB/AS

Then again, I have never bought anything from CSUSA either.

In fact, I have only bought from LV, WWW, and PSI. Oh, and some members here.

So, I guess I have nothing to contribute to this thread (sigh) ....

Well, I can say that I've never had any problems with BB/AS (or CSUSA, et. al.)



Cheers!

Gary


----------



## CSue (Feb 27, 2009)

Well, I have been on both ends of the spectrum with Bill and AS - having said that, I have to say I'm very sorry Bill felt strong enough to discontinue his membership with this group.  And I do wish him well.

It will in no way effect the business I will send his way in the future.  I can be pretty surley all by myself.  Why should I "take it out on him" when there are products he carries I may use sometime in the future.


----------



## babyblues (Feb 27, 2009)

OK, I'm going to post one more time, then I'm just going to leave it be.




spiritwoodturner said:


> Weelllll, since you are talking facts here...
> 
> You didn't read my entire post. I'm talking about actual incidents, not just his mannerisms. I am not going to go into detail because it doesn't matter. That's been beaten to death here, so I'm moving on. But know my experience is far from "subjective". But how many people here or anywhere are stupid enough to think shipping is free, from anyone? He obviously thinks otherwise.



Subjective:  "existing in the mind; belonging to the thinking subject rather than to the object of thought."  Your experiences are what they are, but your conclusion as a result is subjective.  It says more about you than it does about the thing you've drawn a conclusion about. You obviously don't like the guy, so you're assuming the worst.  That's subjective.  Even my opinion is subjective, that's why they call it an OPINION.  Have you even asked him personally about this?  Until you have, you're right, the details as you have laid them out don't matter.  There's nothing "logical" about coming to a conclusion when all you have to go on is your own assumption.  So far, you're the only one I've seen who's worried that he thinks you're stupid.



spiritwoodturner said:


> And you are dead wrong about him being the only one that doesn't charge a handling fee. Craft Supplies not only does not charge a handling fee of any kind, this month they are trying out a "Super Saver" flat shipping fee of 5 bucks. For everything. Try that at AS...



OK, you got me, he's not the only one.  Let me rephrase.  All I know is that I pay more for shipping with CSUSA and less with AS and I ALWAYS receive my shipment quicker from AS.  Bill tries to SAVE YOU MONEY on shipping, which really is going above and beyond because he could just charge you a set rate for shipping like CSUSA and not have to deal with the added paperwork.  CSUSA charges me the same to ship one pen kit as it does 20.  And one month is hardly a comparison to the years that Bill has been saving us money on shipping.  I don't have to try some silly "Super Saver" gimmick with AS because he gives it to me straight.



spiritwoodturner said:


> And I really don't care one way or another on this point, but any logical person would figure he got upset by being "bashed" here (it's not bashing, Bill, feedback is GOLD) and packed up his tent and left. Come on, your contention is he got bullied by someone and left for his own safety, and he's not upset about a single thing? Uh, OK, but my guess is something different, but I'll leave it at that because it's immaterial. But when I leave something and take my support with with me, generally it's because I'm not too happy about something. But that's just me.



NO ONE KNOWS WHAT BILL'S REASONS FOR LEAVING WERE!!!  I never said that he got bullied and left for his own safety and I didn't insinuate that either.  I'm pretty sure that if Bill was the blowhard that you're convinced he is, he wouldn't have hesitated to let us know, in no uncertain terms, why he was leaving.  The fact that he chose to do this in private would suggest to me that he didn't want to make a big deal out of it.  End of story.  Maybe, and here's an idea, he didn't want people thinking it was something negative by making a public scene.  It's obvious that you're not too happy about something, but it seems to me that you're blowing this "shipping isn't free" thing a bit out of proportion and taking it way out of context.  That doesn't help anyone.  Sure, you have the right to take your business elsewhere, but Bill has the right not to waste time worrying about it.



spiritwoodturner said:


> Your argument tries to insert that probably more people don't find him abrasive than do, and that those who do are meaningless. Sorry, we're just as "meaningless" as the pro side. I'll take Jeff's and Andrew's assertions that it's probably about 50-50 and leave it at that.



You're putting words in my mouth.  I did not say that those who find him abrasive are meaningless.  Let me clarify.  There are people on both sides of the fence here.  If those on one side ignore the fact that there are indeed people on the other, chances are that there's going to be friction.


----------



## workinforwood (Feb 27, 2009)

I just needed something that I ordered from Bill, so I pulled everything out of the box.  Now..back when I ordered the stuff, in the comment section when I paid, I said, "send me some of that sunshine up here to Michigan."  As I unloaded the box onto the table, I noticed a sun in the box.  He, or someone there actually took the time to draw a sun and color it with a big smiley face in the center!  That ole curmudgeon has quite a fine sense of humor.  Made me smile.


----------



## skywizzard (Feb 27, 2009)

Well, I wasn't going to post to this thread but...

I have had several orders with Bill at AS. I comply with his terms, after all it is his business, and have never had any problems.  I feel the prices are fair, the selection is good, shipping is reasonable and always very fast.  

Whether Bill is abrasive or has other personality characteristics attributed to him, I don't know.  Having owned a retail business for over 30 years I do agree that you should try to satisfy the customer.  Unfortunately this is not always possible.  Some people just simply can't be happy unless things are done their way.  My belief is they should start their own business and then they could "have it their way".  Perhaps Bill has been around long enough and is comfortable enough with his business that he doesn't have to put up with the crap some people are always willing to shovel your way. More power to him.  

If you like his products and are willing to comply with his terms, then do business with him.  If not, then don't.  It is as simple as that.   

My opinion only of course.


----------



## spiritwoodturner (Feb 27, 2009)

Boy, did any of you see Tiger get whupped by that little South African guy yesterday?...


----------

