# FSC wood



## Sfolivier (Mar 5, 2008)

I know that at times the temptation to turn a nice exotic piece is overwhelming. However to be able to continue to enjoy our hobby / work for the years to come, we have to be green from time to time. Unfortunately, it's not easy to be green 

Has anybody found responsible supplies of some of our favorite blanks? I know I don't use Lignum Vitae or Wenge. But what about ebonies? What about Amboynia? Even bocote is disappearing from Mexico and people are falling ironwood in the natural parks or arizona . I'm really finding myself drawn more and more to domestic temperate woods...

Does anybody have the same concerns and how should we purchase blanks in a responsible manner?


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## rlharding (Mar 5, 2008)

Check in the archives - do a search. There was an extensive discussion about this several weeks ago.


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## rherrell (Mar 5, 2008)

Ask Victor(LandfillLumber), he can probably enlighten you.[8D]


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## jeffj13 (Mar 5, 2008)

I'm curious, are trees really being felled so that we can have pen blanks or are blanks simply a byproduct of using trees for other uses?

Said another way, would "buying green" really have any impact on tree harvesting?

btw, I"m not trying to start a war here, I just want to be an educated consumer.

jeff


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## LandfillLumber (Mar 5, 2008)

Hello, glad to see my name dropped. I to am concerned with what goes on in countries that have no forestry management of any type. I just hate waste in any form, thats the reason Landfill Lumber was started. Lots of exotic scraps go to the dump that are great pen stuff or small project wood. The unfortunate thing as I have had trouble finding real sources for these scraps even though I know they are every where( working on new sources everyday). To answer the question does buying green help the impact, seems like an easy question to answer sure it does. Many suppliers do not use rescued wood, and I'm not saying they are evil at all. They buy it from the folks who cut it down or from the middle guy bringing it in and cutting it. I think we need to just be more responsible about the way we use our resources of all kinds, wood/oil/ and so on. I estimate that I shipped about 2 tons of rescued wood last year, know that just makes me feel good. Let me say that a fine line exists between using to much energy to reprocess some of this rescued wood, so not all wood can be rescued. Oh and I do have some rescued Wenge from a high end stair case. I just ask people to be smart when it comes to using resources, and thanks everyone for your support in what I'm trying to do. I hope to make this a real full time biz over the next few years, and so far the first year has went well. Thanks, Victor


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## rincewind03060 (Mar 5, 2008)

Those of us who grew up with parents who had lived through the depression were shown by example not to waste ANYTHING.
My father would straighten and re-use bent nails for Pete's sake.
so, more power to ya, LandfillLumber!


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## jeffj13 (Mar 5, 2008)

Victor,

Thank you for your response.  I agree that we should use the resources that we have wisely.  I certainly attempt to do that.  The last several pens I have made came from wood taken from a friends wood pile.

While I appreaciate your answering that buying green pen blanks helps in preventing deforesting, I was hoping for more imperical data to demonstrate that.

I have trouble believing that trees are felled just for pen blanks.  It is my assumption that pen blanks are a byproduct of trees being cut down for other purposes, that is, our pen blanks are most likely waste wood that would have been thrown away in the past. Therefore, even if no pen blanks were purchased  during the next year, I contend that the same number of trees would be cut down.

Can someone provide me data to show that I am wrong about this?  I'm always willing to learn.

jeff


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## LandfillLumber (Mar 5, 2008)

I think it does not matter what the wood is bought for pens/stair cases it is still part of the harvested wood that is used. So if all of us stopped making pens , I do think that  a small fraction of the exotic wood needed in this country would go down. Do you think that wood from Wood craft or Rockler is from scrap wood? Some may be but most is bought as regular stock and cut up. No trees are not cut for pens, they are cut to be sold to make a profit and some of that is from pen turners. I'm sure that lots of the wood used for pen blanks is from what may have been burned or sent to the dump. Not sure why you would need DATA, how about these crates of burls coming in do you think those are just a by product of the trees that are going to harvested(NO). Yes 20 years ago burls got thrown away, know they are bought for huge money and made into veneer/pen blanks and so on. Do you think that these guys who cut when they see a huge burl don't see dollar signs, they do. A 3/4" x 5" blank comes out to 51.2 blanks a board foot not including saw kerf, so do the math on these burl blanks selling for $5-$15 each. Hey not trying to make anyone mad or say anyone is evil for trying to make money as I'm doing that very thing myself with Landfill Lumber. I can only do my part, and like woodcraft/rockler I trying to make a profit. Doing my part, Victor


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## loglugger (Mar 5, 2008)

Let the foresters do thier job. How would you like say a coal worker telling you how to do your job. The USA has millions of board feet of logs on the ground rotting and no one can touch it because some one in a city some where think they know more about our forest than some one that has studied it all of there life.
This is a real sore point with me.
Bob


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## LandfillLumber (Mar 5, 2008)

Loglugger is spot on, we have government get in the way of using such logs and urban logs as well. I have a friend who owns a small mill and cuts only rescued trees and has had so many huge stacks of trees slip through his fingers to the chippers because of politics. Victor


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## Sfolivier (Mar 5, 2008)

"While I appreaciate your answering that buying green pen blanks helps in preventing deforesting, I was hoping for more imperical data to demonstrate that."

It doesn't really matter if the tree is fell just to make pen blanks. We are talking about a global system of supply and demand. Trees are fell to supply a market: hardwood floors, pen blanks, veneer makers... It's all about creating any demand for endangered species. Yes you are right, demand is a small one, but still it's demand and it's part of the drive to convert endangered rain forest species into boards, burls. Furthermore, there's not that many people using, for example, macassar ebony anymore. You'll find it mostly for turnings, small project, veneers, etc... In other words, often for people like us.

Just imaging that some wood were like rhinoceros horn. Would it make sense to say that using rhino parts to make pens is a responsible behavior since they are primary hunted to make anti-impotency powder and we only use byproducts?

So overall, I agree with landfill lumber.

On the other hand, I have no problem with sustainable forestry, especially in developed countries as loglugger mentioned. Now, that doesn't cover taking cactus out of the Devils's Garden in California, cutting old growth hardwood or felling ironwood in National Parks [:0].


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## Nolan (Mar 5, 2008)

> _Originally posted by LandfillLumber_
> 
> how about these crates of burls coming in do you think those are just a by product of the trees that are going to harvested(NO).  Victor



Victor please dont generalize, not all burl comes at the expense of the tree. The Australian burl I carry and sell is harvested and the tree is left. The burls on these trees are above ground and are harvested in a way that rids the tree of its cancer like growth.


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## 1080Wayne (Mar 5, 2008)

Jeff   No imperical data , but a few random thoughts . Very much doubt that the average tropical tree harvester / forestry company is even aware that the pen market exists . Would suspect that much of what we would consider prime material is burnt or left on the forest floor .  Assume each of the 4000+ IAP members makes 2500 pens/yr from 3/4x3/4x6 blanks(an unquestionably lousy assumption) . That would require about 20,000 cu ft of lumber , which from 2 ft x 50 ft logs (assuming 80% yield) would take about 170 trees . Of course the commercial wooden pen market is probably much larger . So I would agree with Victor that there is an impact , but I suspect that the %age of the tree harvest going to pens is substantially less than 1% . So , personally I don`t go out and buy boards of tropical wood to cut up into pen blanks , but if I get some in an exchange  or from something that Victor or someone else has salvaged , I certainly won`t burn it ! But , I do prefer to use our beautiful native (and some non-native N American grown) woods .   Wayne


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## LandfillLumber (Mar 5, 2008)

I would love to see some info. on these trees being rid of the cancer. Not sure that burls are cancers, they have little info. on exactly what makes burls, a lot of views on this subject. I'm not saying havesting burls is an evil thing, but it is done to trees just for the burl. Supply and demand as stated above, lots of supply for amazing burl like you sell. I was not trying to beat up on people selling burl, I have bought burl myself. I was just using an example that showed what i was talking about. As long as harvesting is done right and responsibly I have no problem cutting anything at all. And sorry I have a hard time seeing cutting huge chunks of burl off these trees rids them of cancer and may be even more harmful to the tree in the end. Again I'm not against burl being harvested it was an extreme example of mark up on a wood product, and maybe just poorly used by me, for that I'm sorry. Please pass along some more info. on the cutting of your burl, I'm interested as I have done a ton of research on what burls are. I have even done testing on trees to try and create burl on my own, I killed a lot of young maples,LOL. Oh and no I didn't make any burl, but some day someone will and someday all burl will be as common as Hard maple burl. Nolan I was not taking shoots at you please do not take it that way. Thanks, Victor  I opened a can of worms,LOL


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## jwoodwright (Mar 5, 2008)

> _Originally posted by LandfillLumber_
> 
> Do you think that these guys who cut when they see a huge burl don't see dollar signs, they do. A 3/4" x 5" blank comes out to 51.2 blanks a board foot not including saw kerf, so do the math on these burl blanks selling for $5-$15 each. Victor



Victor, are you using new math?  I was awake for math class[:I] and I believe a board foot has 144 sq inch's...  12x12x1.
Your blank size of 3/4" x 5" = 3.75".  144/3.75 = 38.4 blanks and this Does Not include saw kerf...


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## loglugger (Mar 5, 2008)

Sfolivier, I don't think you will find a direct answer to your question. Most countries have a handle on the timber that they cut from what I have read on it. There is still a lot of untruths and down right lies that is being put out to people that don't know better and don't take the time to find out the truth that is causing alot of the problems with our forests and forests of other countries. This is just my opinon on the whole mess.........
Bob


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## LandfillLumber (Mar 5, 2008)

jwood a 3/4 square x 5" blank is 2.8125 divide by 144 cubic inches and you get 51.2 blanks. Victor


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## loglugger (Mar 5, 2008)

In reality more like 24 maybe 26 blank per board foot. 
Bob


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## Russianwolf (Mar 5, 2008)

> _Originally posted by jwoodwright_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Your blanks are .75x5x1 while Victor is using .75x.75x5

Give me a 3/4 inch think board that's 4.5 inches wide and 42.66 inches long and I'll get real close to 50 blanks with my bandsaw.


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## loglugger (Mar 5, 2008)

Your burls are better than mine. I haven't found one much bigger than a foot around for quit awhile. 
Bob


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## Russianwolf (Mar 5, 2008)

On the subject, Many trees are not felled for the wood industry. Many are felled to make way for houses, office buildings, farmland (big time in Brazil right now), and other things that have little to do with any of us. Now what should be done with those trees? 

A smart sawyer will get the most yield out of his trees. Sometimes this means cutting without regard to figure (in woods that are common or have little figure) and at other times it means taking a peek and sending it to the veneer cutters. I hate veneer, I don't think a piece of wood should ever be cut thinner than 1/4 inch as veneer is just waiting for it to be chipped, but I understnad the desire to get as much out of a piece as possible. Sometimes total yield takes a back seat to quality and the price goes up (ala Nolan). 

Fact trees will continue to be cut down for reasons other than woodworking, All we can do is try to make sure that the wood we use is coming from responsible sources and not black market thieves.


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## Russianwolf (Mar 5, 2008)

> _Originally posted by loglugger_
> 
> Your burls are better than mine. I haven't found one much bigger than a foot around for quit awhile.
> Bob


I pass a tree at least once a week that is covered in burls at least 2 foot in diameter. One of these days I have to find the owner and see what it is and if he might sell it.


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## Nolan (Mar 5, 2008)

> _Originally posted by LandfillLumber_
> 
> I would love to see some info. on these trees being rid of the cancer. Not sure that burls are cancers, they have little info. on exactly what makes burls, a lot of views on this subject. I'm not saying havesting burls is an evil thing, but it is done to trees just for the burl. Supply and demand as stated above, lots of supply for amazing burl like you sell. I was not trying to beat up on people selling burl, I have bought burl myself. I was just using an example that showed what i was talking about. As long as harvesting is done right and responsibly I have no problem cutting anything at all. And sorry I have a hard time seeing cutting huge chunks of burl off these trees rids them of cancer and may be even more harmful to the tree in the end. Again I'm not against burl being harvested it was an extreme example of mark up on a wood product, and maybe just poorly used by me, for that I'm sorry. Please pass along some more info. on the cutting of your burl, I'm interested as I have done a ton of research on what burls are. I have even done testing on trees to try and create burl on my own, I killed a lot of young maples,LOL. Oh and no I didn't make any burl, but some day someone will and someday all burl will be as common as Hard maple burl. Nolan I was not taking shoots at you please do not take it that way. Thanks, Victor  I opened a can of worms,LOL




I said "cancer like " to simplify the post. I too have done tons of research, I didnt post cause I felt you were taking shots at me. I simply posted it so the forum members who havent done reaseach or dont care to do it on this wouldnt think that in order to harvest burl you have to kill the tree. That is simply not true in all species. I spoke of Australian burl because I am well informed about them. Victor if you have a specific question related to Australian burl feel free to PM me and I will do my best to answer it and if I cant I will get it answered. And yes you can probably find a polar opinion than the answer or data I can provide.


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## R2 (Mar 5, 2008)

An interesting point about Australian burls to follow up on Nolan's remarks. Yes, many burls are cut from the trunks of trees and the trees are let standing. Many others are harvested as a result of normal forestry management. In other words Timber is felled and many burls are removed before the logs are milled.
However, and this worries me, What is sold as Mallee Burl is a different matter and I have posted before on this subject.
Mallee trees are found in semi-arid areas. They are not trees with single large trunks, do not grow to any great height and the multiple trunks they do have are quit spindly.
Mallee "burl" is actually the root bole and some of these are quite massive. In order to get the root you need to actually excavate around the tree and dig it out. In Western Australia this is done with very large machinery indeed and on a big scale where land is being cleared for either farming or urban development. I have concerns about this practice of clearing vast areas of trees. The only consolation is that, these days, the resulting timber is not simply pushed into heaps and burnt. I'd much rather see beautiful boxes, bowls and pens than lumps of charcoal!!


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## SuperDave (Mar 5, 2008)

> _Originally posted by loglugger_
> 
> Sfolivier, I don't think you will find a direct answer to your question. Most countries have a handle on the timber that they cut from what I have read on it. There is still a lot of untruths and down right lies that is being put out to people that don't know better and don't take the time to find out the truth that is causing alot of the problems with our forests and forests of other countries. This is just my opinon on the whole mess.........
> Bob



Bob,

You are spot on. There is a lot of mis-information put out that serves to create false concerns. The information is readily available for anyone that truly cares to do the work.

According to our own (U.S.) export statistics, the United States disposes of timber into our landfills at the equivalent rate of 30% of our total hardwood exports!! We are talking $1.14 billion dollars in 2005.

Another way to put the impact of pen turning on the global timber industry is this:

1. If we made one pen for every man, woman and child in America ( say 350 million pens to be generous), and 
2. You harvested 24' Oak trees that were 24" diameter, yielding 665 BF of 4/4 lumber (International Scale), 
3. It would take 10,263 trees with a street value of $27.3 million at $4.00 a board foot (which is a VERY generous retail value).

4. If it were a pen for every man, woman, and child on the planet (say 6.5 billion)
5. And you harvested the same size trees,
6. It would take 190,602 trees with a GENEROUS street RETAIL value of $507 million (less than half of ONE YEARS WORTH of ANNUAL landfill hardwood disposed of in the U.S.). 

If the landfill dollar values were converted to retail values, the difference would be several times greater, making the argument even more gratuitous, as the "*global writing instruments for people*</u>" would equate to more like 1/10th of one years landfill disposals.

So, we throw billions of dollars into the landfills and sweat about pen blanks. I asked a local logger how much for a load of Ambrosia Maple, delivered, and was quoted $1,200, because it gets burned in slash piles to get to the Doug Fir.

.... where is my chainsaw, it's almost spring cutt'in time!![}]


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## Jarheaded (Mar 5, 2008)

I am going out tomorrow, weather permitting to cut some burls off a pile of wood that waqs cut down due to carpenter ant damage. The trees were planted when the house was built over 200 years ago. the burls are nice looking so far and If I don't take them, they will be turned into firewood, so I see this as recycling and saving some part of the tree. The burls are costing me 2 slimlines. I hope that this is what you are looking for in a way.


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## Proud_Poppa_of_2 (Mar 5, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Jarheaded_
> 
> The burls are costing me 2 slimlines.



So, if I send you a slimline, will you send me a burl?  Better yet, if I send you a fat slimline, will you send me a fat burl?


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## Sfolivier (Mar 5, 2008)

No, I don't think I'll get a straight answer... Interesting opinions tho.

I'm distressed by the answer "It's just a small piece" tho. That doesn't resonate too well with me. Especially with species that are already critically endangered.


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## karlkuehn (Mar 5, 2008)

I've often wondered what causes burls myself. Even curl is interesting. A guy told me the other day that curly wood is caused by criss-crossing underground streams running under or near them. *shrugs*

All I know for sure is if you cut a burl off of a log just right, a bunch of money falls out. [}]

A lot of my best wood comes from rooting around in the mud after the loggers are done making their money. I've rescued many a beautiful piece of hardwood from slash piles and cutoffs. Makes it fun to go 'hunting', too.


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## Jarheaded (Mar 5, 2008)

Mike, that is what I buy them for, not what I sell them for. I can work out a way to get some to you if you want.


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## Proud_Poppa_of_2 (Mar 5, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Jarheaded_
> 
> Mike, that is what I buy them for, not what I sell them for. I can work out a way to get some to you if you want.



So what your saying, Johnnie, is that *one nice fat burl* will cost me *two slimlines*?  We must be talking about amboyna or desert iron wood.  I turn a pretty <s>angry</s> mean slimline.


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## wdcav1952 (Mar 5, 2008)

Some threads like this one get my goat.  Usually the people worrying about using â€œexoticâ€ wood and damaging the environment are less than consistent in the rest of their life choices.

Perhaps a bit of a quiz is in order:
1.  What kind of car/SUV do you drive and what kind of gas mileage does it get?
1 a.  Do you car pool?
1 b. Do you ever drive anywhere just for pleasure, wasting energy?
2.  Do you suck up far more than your share of petroleum resources by heating your house in the winter and (gasp) using air conditioning in the summer?  Of course this means you actually have electricity in your home, unlike untold millions throughout the world.
3.  Please donâ€™t tell me you abuse your place in the food chain by consuming innocent animals raised and slaughtered for your obscene pleasure?
4. Do you produce excessive amounts of trash to be placed in landfills further despoiling the environment?

In short, be consistent.  Until you can do that, leave people like Bob who made an honest living as a logger alone.

Anyone know the definition of an environmentalist?  It is someone who bought their lake home last year!


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## SuperDave (Mar 5, 2008)

> _Originally posted by wdcav1952_
> 
> Some threads like this one get my goat.  Usually the people worrying about using â€œexoticâ€ wood and damaging the environment are less than consistent in the rest of their life choices.
> 
> ...



I am all for Global Warming. Everyone deserves the right to cut down trees to heat their home... Especially with all this cold weather we have been having lately...
______________________________________________
Transcript from about a week ago or so... needless to say, it never made the Network News.
______________________________________________

With new data out of the earth's significant cooling, at least one morning show picked it up, predictably FNC's Fox and Friends. Co-host Brian Kilmeade noted Thursday that worldwide snow cover is the highest it has been in over forty years. *Steve Doocy quoted a meteorologist in California who noted that the temperature has dropped by "a value large enough to erase nearly all the global warming recorded over the last 100 years" and "it's the single fastest temperature change ever recorded up or down*</u>." 

The transcript from 8:31 AM EST on February 28:

     STEVE DOOCY: Al Gore, this news for you. It is cold, not just in New York City, but, it's interesting. Over the last day or so, all four major global temperature tracking outlets have released data showing that temperatures have dropped significantly over the last year. So while there's all this hysteria about global warming. In fact, perhaps, we should be talking about global cooling. 
     AL GORE VOICE OVER: Is that necessary? 
     BRIAN KILMEADE: Yeah 
     DOOCY: Yeah. 
     KILMEADE: Snow is covering more of North America, and much more of Asia. It's greater than any time since 1966. So it goes in the- it just flies in the face of a movie that got him an Emmy, and an Oscar, a Pulitzer, I don't know what else- 
     GRETCHEN CARLSON: A Pulitzer? 
     DOOCY: A Tony? 
     KILMEADE: A Tony. 
     CARLSON: He's taking his global warming to Broadway? 
     DOOCY: Something like that. 
     KILMEADE: Grammy. 
     DOOCY: I wonder who will play him. Anyway, there is one meteorologist out in California who says that the amount of cooling ranges from about .65 of a degree Centigrade, to .75 of a degree. I know that's a little esoteric, but he says that's a value large enough to erase nearly all the global warming recorded over the last 100 years. And says it's the single fastest temperature change ever recorded up or down. And just to back it up, got a map right now. I'm just going to show you how cold it is in a portion of the United States of America. Look at the current wind chill. It feels like ten below right now in Rochester. It feels like seven in New York City, zero, zip in Pittsburgh.


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## loglugger (Mar 5, 2008)

Thanks Cav but I think it was probability me picking on them. 
Bob


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## Nolan (Mar 5, 2008)

> _Originally posted by wdcav1952_
> 
> Some threads like this one get my goat.  Usually the people worrying about using â€œexoticâ€ wood and damaging the environment are less than consistent in the rest of their life choices.
> 
> ...



Funny some folks when they find out I sell burl and exotic wood tell me how I am destoying the rain forest , causing global warming, ect, ect.... as they are writting me a check for the trusses for their 7000 square foot house that they are building. Oh and by the way the kids are out of the house so its just the two of them and a dog


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## JohnU (Mar 5, 2008)

You guys make great points but I think we are dots made by our own pens on a global sized map when it comes to our wood purchases.  Timber acres are being dozed over for subdivisions and vacation resorts, and most of those trees are piled up and burned.  We watch our soil be contaminated by insect and weed killers only to pollute our water, so someone can make a fortune on bottled water.  Our government brings in beetles to kill the bugs eating our crops and now they make a fortune on us buying sprays to kill the over taking beetle.  Its a mean cycle that always comes down to $.


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## Russianwolf (Mar 5, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Russianwolf_
> 
> 
> A smart sawyer will get the most yield out of his trees. Sometimes this means cutting without regard to figure (in woods that are common or have little figure) and at other times it means taking a peek and sending it to the veneer cutters. I hate veneer, I don't think a piece of wood should ever be cut thinner than 1/4 inch as veneer is just waiting for it to be chipped, but I understnad the desire to get as much out of a piece as possible. Sometimes total yield takes a back seat to quality and the price goes up (ala Nolan).


I was rereading my earlier post and wanted to clarify something. The last line could be read as an insult to Nolan, which I had intended anything but. From what I have seen (admited limited as my budget won't support more right now) is that Nolan works to maximize the yield of a superior product and still maintaina a respectable yield on the "seconds" which are as good as most places "firsts". 

max yield = smart, but max yield of a superior product = smart+talent.


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## Ron in Drums PA (Mar 6, 2008)

To become certified by the Forest Stewardship Council (FSC) you need to pay $2500 to enroll then $2000 per year to remain a member.  

After you are certified you are licensed to use their logo and are required to "self police" yourself to do the "proper thing".

Being involved in printing industry and in contact with 100s of printers across this nation, some of whom are FSC Certified,  the general consensus is that the Forest Stewardship Council (FSC) is a money grab.

Yes, we need to be responsible with our environment, but we should also educate ourselves to avoid the evangelistic hype that is so common in the media.

Question: If you want accurate scientific information, do you go to a politician or a scientist?


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## LandfillLumber (Mar 6, 2008)

Want to clear a few things up, I only made the point that yes pen turning does add the what needs to be harvested in wood period, no matter if its exotic/or domestic. I mad a big mistake and used burls as an extreme example, as its a super high value wood. I never intended it as a shoot at burl sellers(i use them also,and love them). I'm not out making a big fuss about saving the forests, I'm just doing my part to help the effort and hope to make money doing it. I'm a carpenter not a tree hugger, I just would like to see what we waste in this country and all others for that matter, be used in a better way. Thanks, victor


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## Jarheaded (Mar 6, 2008)

Nolan, was that a confession? Are you the one that is causing global warming? Stop it okay, it's getting people so upset that they have to make Bob cut down more trees to write more reports in there heated/air conditioned office suites causing electric to soar and then they waste fuel bringing all the reports to the landfill. All this because you sold a few blanks.See what you have done. I am sure that you feel bad enough, so no apology will be necessary.[}]

P.S. Please tell the cows to stop farting methane gas because it is bad for the ozone or we will be forced to eat them.


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## Ron in Drums PA (Mar 6, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Jarheaded_
> 
> P.S. Please tell the cows to stop farting methane gas because it is bad for the ozone or we will be forced to eat them.



PETA - People Eating Tasty Animals

I believe all God's creatures belong next to the potatoes.


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## Nolan (Mar 6, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Jarheaded_
> 
> P.S. Please tell the cows to stop farting methane gas because it is bad for the ozone or we will be forced to eat them.




Not that was friggin funny!!! I am gonna laugh all day about that!  And yah I do my part using up forest products, wont go into that cuz just too much mis-information on the subject. Thats why in my other post I stated that you probably can find a polar opinion than mine if you look for it. Like Cav pointed out there are bigger fish to fry in the whole resource wasting issue.


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## Proud_Poppa_of_2 (Mar 6, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Ron in Drums PA_
> PETA - People Eating Tasty Animals
> 
> I believe all God's creatures belong next to the potatoes.



I beg to differ with you on that one, Ron.  I think the pan-fried trout belongs next to the seasoned rice.


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## Jarheaded (Mar 6, 2008)

If we didn't use up resources with out some disreguard, my lathe would be kick powered and I would only be working during daylight hours. And I certainly wouldn't be wasting electricity using my computer while the TV is on. At least I don't turn on the AC if the heat gets too high in the winter( can you tell I have worked for the government). Got to go and cut some burls off a felled tree, maybe I can cut a bung too for a cow...LOL


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## sbell111 (Mar 6, 2008)

> _Originally posted by wdcav1952_
> Perhaps a bit of a quiz is in order:


1.  What kind of car/SUV do you drive and what kind of gas mileage does it get?
Me: Jeep Grand Cherokee 13/18 mpg, Cadillac Allante, 13/20 mpg (but it's worth it)
Wifey: Chevy Trail Blazer 14/20 mpg, Ford T-Bird 0/0 mpg (currently)
1 a.  Do you car pool?
No, although we do sometimes go places together. []
1 b. Do you ever drive anywhere just for pleasure, wasting energy?
I don't consider that a waste.
2.  Do you suck up far more than your share of petroleum resources by heating your house in the winter and (gasp) using air conditioning in the summer? 
Yup.  In fact, sometimes we turn on the AC in the winter.
3.  Please donâ€™t tell me you abuse your place in the food chain by consuming innocent animals raised and slaughtered for your obscene pleasure?
Innocent?  They had it coming.  Who hasn't read Animal Farm?
4. Do you produce excessive amounts of trash to be placed in landfills further despoiling the environment?
No.  I produce the exact amount of trash that I need to produce.  Nothing excessive.  If I were to buy things solely for the purpose of throwing them away, it would be excessive.


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## Russianwolf (Mar 6, 2008)

quote]_Originally posted by wdcav1952_
Perhaps a bit of a quiz is in order:[/quote]
1.  What kind of car/SUV do you drive and what kind of gas mileage does it get?
Me: 1970 Jeep Gladiator Pickup -too scared to calculate the milage. Driven 8 miles a day and a bit on weekends (when the tires aren't slashed ), Wife has a 2003 Saturn Vue about 20/24, only thing that fits a pack of pups and gets decent milage.
1 a.  Do you car pool?
No, I take a hulking deisel train 140 round trip each day to work with about 500 other people, no cars involved and if one gets in our way, we win.
1 b. Do you ever drive anywhere just for pleasure, wasting energy?
Very rarely, I have too many things to actually do.
2.  Do you suck up far more than your share of petroleum resources by heating your house in the winter and (gasp) using air conditioning in the summer? 
In  the Winter our house rarely gets above 65 degrees, Huskies don't like heat. In summer, we do run the AC.
3.  Please donâ€™t tell me you abuse your place in the food chain by consuming innocent animals raised and slaughtered for your obscene pleasure?
abuse my place? not at all, I eat animals that are beneath my place and am open to being eaten by those above me (are there any up there)
4. Do you produce excessive amounts of trash to be placed in landfills further despoiling the environment?
No.  I do not produce trash, Companies do. I mearly buy a product that is wrapped by them in trash and only keep the product. Don't blame me for their faults.
[/quote]


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## GoodTurns (Mar 6, 2008)

> _Originally posted by wdcav1952_
> 
> 
> 3.  Please donâ€™t tell me you abuse your place in the food chain by consuming innocent animals raised and slaughtered for your obscene pleasure?



Q:  Do you know what they do to animals in those slaughterhouses?
A:  Nope, but it sure does make them taste good!


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## Sfolivier (Mar 6, 2008)

You know, there's a big difference between global impact / ecological footprint (an important discussion, but one that is also really off-topic on this forum) and using wood from endangered species that are harvested in an unregulated, unsustainable way.

I guess mentioning ecology in a woodworking environment always generates a lot of passion, usually from people who wrongly believe that their lifestyle or income is threatened.

I don't really see the connection between gas mileage and using almost extinct mahogany subspecies to make a pen. I really don't see the link between eating cows and turning illegally harvested Nepali sandalwood. Obviously, some people think they do. It's unfortunate because connections like those seems to prevent them from really thinking about how they do certain things.

That's too bad. Me? I'm gone from this righteous thread.


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## DCBluesman (Mar 6, 2008)

For those who might be interested.  http://www.eyeontherainforest.org/rfnewsletter192008.php


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## wdcav1952 (Mar 6, 2008)

Gee, I guess it is good I didn't mention Al (jet around the globe on my private plane) Gore.  [:0]  Debate is only good if everyone agrees it seems.  As for my*self*, I think it was a *righteous* thread that lent itself to good discussion.


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## Ron in Drums PA (Mar 6, 2008)

> _Originally posted by wdcav1952_
> 
> Gee, I guess it is good I didn't mention Al (jet around the globe on my private plane) Gore.  [:0]  Debate is only good if everyone agrees it seems.  As for my*self*, I think it was a *righteous* thread that lent itself to good discussion.



You must be talking about the _"The Father Of The Internet._

From the founder of the Weather Channel
http://www.heartland.org/NewYork08/newyork08.cfm

Latest info on the ice caps
http://tinyurl.com/2dg5z5


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## wdcav1952 (Mar 6, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Ron in Drums PA_
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ron, you must have forgotten that Tipper and Al were the inspiration for Love Story</u> and got to testify to each other when they investigated dirty rock lyrics.  How he ever had the spare time to invent the internet is beyond me.


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## Ron in Drums PA (Mar 6, 2008)

> _Originally posted by wdcav1952_
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I think he was cloned in the in the same vat that Dolly was.


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## Proud_Poppa_of_2 (Mar 6, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Ron in Drums PA_
> 
> I think he was cloned in the in the same vat that Dolly was.



Dolly Parton's were cloned???  [:0]  I had always thought they were real?


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## Ron in Drums PA (Mar 6, 2008)

LOL

The sheep named Dolly

Do a google


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## SuperDave (Mar 6, 2008)

... I can't afford to buy any more blanks and kits... My Carbon Credit Payment to Algore[}] is due...

What a friggin scam!!


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## loglugger (Mar 6, 2008)

I am sure glad this thread is finally making some sense.

Bob


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## TellicoTurning (Mar 6, 2008)

> _Originally posted by rincewind03060_
> 
> Those of us who grew up with parents who had lived through the depression were shown by example not to waste ANYTHING.
> My father would straighten and re-use bent nails for Pete's sake.
> so, more power to ya, LandfillLumber!



You mean you're not suppose to re-use nail[:0]

I guess I learned something from dear ol' Dad... I'm for ever doing that.


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## wdcav1952 (Mar 6, 2008)

Chuck, we could team up.  I'm forever bending nails![B)]


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## Ron in Drums PA (Mar 6, 2008)

> _Originally posted by rincewind03060_
> Those of us who grew up with parents who had lived through the depression were shown by example not to waste ANYTHING.
> My father would straighten and re-use bent nails for Pete's sake.
> so, more power to ya, LandfillLumber!



Boy, that brought back a memory.

I think I was about 5 or 6 and just completed my first woodworking project... hammering 100 nails into a 2x4. I was pretty proud of my work of art and ran to show my father. 

He took one look at my first creation and then told me I had to remove every nail and if they where bent I had to straighten them out.  He showed me how to do it then left. 

It took me two days before I passed inspection and once I did he showed me how to build a bird house. Of course all the wood was cut and all I had to do was nail it together. But I was really good at taking out any nail I  bent, straighten them out and reuse them.

I have a couple of nailers now and use them for big projects, but I still straighten any nail I bend.


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## Jarheaded (Mar 6, 2008)

What? Are you kidding me? No reason to finish a discussion if everyone doesn't see it your way. Do you have furniture in your home? What is it made from? Was it sprayed with a finish that could possibly harm anything else? Why is it okay to use one type of wood and not another? Do you think that a certain type of wood is okay to use because there is plenty of it and it will never run out? Illegaly harvested wood does not make it into my shop knowingly. I have never even heard of those woods. You can't really believe that we use illegal wood and are happy about risking a hefty fine or the chance of going to jail just to turn a pen. Most of my wood is from reclaimed lumber or other turners willing to share what they have. I just went out today and loaded about 200lbs of burl into my Jeep(15/20 mpg) that was from trees cut down due to carpenter ant damage. Am I some sort of savage for buying Aussie burl? I like the wood and it is already down due to progress, not using it would be a waste. If you are so worried about things, why are you not doing something to change things instead of just talking about it? and by the way, my pickup truck gets 4 mpg when I plow and I am happy it does that good, it helps to pay for my $3.79 a gallon heating oil so my family doesn't freeze. In the summer, yes I run an AC at night so my kids can sleep. I like to go for a ride and even do some off-roading to clear my head. I also eat meat because I like it and if I became dinner for something, so be it. I don't carpool because I don't have any steady hours to work. I make trash because I don't know what else to do with things that I don't have any use for, but I do try to recycle. Now I am done being righteous and will take my toys and go home.[:0]
Oops forgot, I thought that nails bent over on purpose to help hold things better.


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## Woodchopper (Mar 7, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Russianwolf_
> 
> On the subject, Many trees are not felled for the wood industry. Many are felled to make way for houses, office buildings, farmland (big time in Brazil right now), and other things that have little to do with any of us. Now what should be done with those trees?
> 
> ...



The county bought an easement from me for a water main.  It took quite few trees, some of which were hickory and cherry.  They were cut to make way for the water main, but were cut and hauled to the sawyer.  The hardwoods were.  I'm now kicking myself for not negotiating for the timber.

Dell


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## scroller99 (Mar 8, 2008)

I readm in a magazine that the natives that clear the land for farming, in the real backwater places in south america usually just burn the trees when they are fell, now that is a crime anyway you look at it! Howard


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## loglugger (Mar 8, 2008)

They did at one time, don't know that it is still going on that mutch.
Bob


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## Ron in Drums PA (Mar 8, 2008)

It might still be happening, but these men are trying to provide for their families.


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## wdcav1952 (Mar 8, 2008)

> _Originally posted by scroller99_
> 
> I readm in a magazine that the natives that clear the land for farming, in the real backwater places in south america usually just burn the trees when they are fell, now that is a crime anyway you look at it! Howard



Gosh, we are sooooo lucky things like that never happened here in the United States.


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## clthayer (Mar 9, 2008)

> _Originally posted by scroller99_
> 
> I readm in a magazine that the natives that clear the land for farming, in the real backwater places in south america usually just burn the trees when they are fell, now that is a crime anyway you look at it! Howard



Don't know about you, but as soon as the snow is gone I'm puttin' up next years fire wood.


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## clthayer (Mar 9, 2008)

My employer was going to become FSC certified a few years ago.  It seems that a few of our buyers were willing to pay a bit more for FSC certified lumber.  But then they were told to make the check out to The Rainforest Alliance and they thought that maybe they would sell the lumber for what they always got for it.

On another note, there was a good article in The Northern Logger and Timber Harvester a month or two ago about illegal timber harvesting in, Oh, I think maybe it was  Indonesia.  I'll see if I can find it and make it available to all you good people.

Christian


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## Paul Downes (Mar 10, 2008)

O.K. I'll throw in my 2 cents worth. I have a bumper sticker on my truck that says "pro logging environmentalist". Hey , I used to work as a logger in Michigan's U.P. When I was up in the big woods, there was a controversy going on over a proposed new paper mill. The anti-logging bunch were very vocal about the "rapeing of mother earth" ond so on. Mostly they expressed emotional arguments with little in the way of facts to back up their claims. Some of their members were spiking trees which could have injured or killed the guys trying to make a living. When it was all over, and after the paper mill company pulled it's proposal, it was found out that the leader of the anti-logging group was in fact the son of a Mead company executive. It was all politics and it just cost yoopers the chance at decent jobs. 

 Most of the logging we did was sustainable logging called TSI. (timber stand improvement). Clear cutting is done in pulp wood stands which are renewable in a 30 year cycle or less. 

 My cousin lives and works in the jungles of Guatemala. He is a biologist and has worked to preserve the oseolated turkey. He has increased the numbers of these birds by managing them for limited harvest (gringo hunts) which has also increased the income of the village he lives in by something like 4 times. He expressed a desire to me to get a portable sawmill going to harvest trees that are left by the loggers who are cutting the jungle. The loggers work until the rainy season hits and when they start getting their log trucks stuck they throw off logs to get unstuck and leave these logs to rot on the side of the road. These are the logs he wishes to harvest. 

  I think these people are just trying to make a living. No matter how much we might object to the logging in the rain forests, I believe the wood will be cut and sold. I think the only thing impacted by protesting the harvest is the price of the wood. It will be sold somewhere, and it will be cut. It would be nice to see sustainable harvest methods employed, but keep in mind that the people who live there are quite poor and are just trying to make a living.

  As far as the global market and global warming are concerned, I think both are a load of crap. The global market allows us to attempt to compete with slave states such as China.

 My dad was a scientist who was of the opinion that somewhere up to 80% of the "science" published was corrupt and provably so. Money is the prime corrupting agent. Remember that farming used to be done on greenland. Planes that crashed there during ww2 are now under several hundred feet of ice. They used to grow oranges in Great Britain......and so on. 

 I sure would have liked to see Michigan when it was covered with Chessnut trees. But heck, the world changes. I think man's impact on the earth is rather small over time. I think it's arrogant to think we have as much impact as is being said with today's environmental controversies. Not that we shouldn't attempt to do the honorable thing and be conservoters of the resources available......Let's go make some pens.


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## helgi (Mar 10, 2008)

Reading this sure brings back some memories especially with a tree hugger in the mix
we had some of those up here in canada, a few years back (Hired by one of the Kennedy clan) mostly young university and street people type ) wouldnt let the loggers and equipment through chained themselves to trees and lived in the tops. They were living in tents or made up shacks and toilet and washing facilities behind every bush.When everything was over guess who had to clean up their utopic environment. By the way we as loggers spotted the burls on the trees and harvested them before cutting the tree xtra money or coffee or end tables some up here in canada 6' long 2.5' wide. But yes we all should be better prepared to conserve, and if the timber barons would have started re-planting from the start we wouldn't be in this mess.


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## Ron in Drums PA (Mar 10, 2008)

This is a signature from another turner, ya gotta love it...

*EARTH FIRST!!! We will log the other planets later....*


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## loglugger (Mar 10, 2008)

While I was still logging I had a bumper sticker on my work pick up that said  I LIKE MY SPOTTED OWLS FRIED,  stopped for coffee one time  and I thought a lady in the parking lot was going to have a fist fight with me, tried to tell her it was just a joke but she wasn't going for it. Kind of funny now but I am not in the habit of fighting with strange women in a parking lot. 
Bob


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## clthayer (Mar 10, 2008)

Alright, here it is

http://www.natlhardwood.org/pdf/Hardwood Matters/HM_Jan_Feb_08.pdf

I lied though, it wasn't in The Northern Logger, it was in Hardwood Matters.  This is NHLA's monthly publication.  The article I was talking about is on page 8, but the pdf took a while to load.  There is also some interesting stuff about cellulosic ethanol.

Christian


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## Paul Downes (Mar 10, 2008)

Love the "Earth First" statement, I've got that bumper sticker on our van. I used to have a t-shirt that said "nuke the whales" boy did some people get offended by that one. They actually thought I was serious. Of course  I would tell them it was a protest of bubble heads like themselves. Not exactly Dale Carnegie stuff.


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## Randy_ (Mar 10, 2008)

I guess I must live in a cave since no one else has asked the question.

What the heck is FSC wood??


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## jeff (Mar 10, 2008)

Forest Stewardship Council
They promote responsible use of forest products.
http://www.fsc.org/en/


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## Jarheaded (Mar 10, 2008)

All this talk about saving the earth has touched me. I am happy to say that I am doing my part too. I rescued 3 whelbarrows of curly maple burl from a yard that was going to use it for firewood. I also picked up several nicely spalted logs while I was there. I owe them 2 slimline pens for it, but may upgrade them to Jr. Retros or something. Later this week I will go back and get the rest of the burls and help the earth some more. It feels good to do my part.


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## Ron in Drums PA (Mar 11, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Randy__
> 
> I guess I must live in a cave since no one else has asked the question.
> 
> What the heck is FSC wood??



Forest Silly Crazies (aka Money grab, aka Forest Stewardship Council)

http://www.penturners.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=34394&whichpage=3#357878


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## JayDevin (Mar 11, 2008)

On Sunday I went to the inlaws 900 acre ranch and rescued some manzitnita and Chamise burls that were A: blocking a needed road  B: on the ground awaiting rot. No trees were felled, on one blocking the road fell by itself. It was rumored to be over 100 years old and had a trunk about 18 in in diameter. In manzanita is left alone out in the woods it will ge that big. Perhaps I will shoot some photos.Im also gonn make cast pen blanks some tghat I might offer for sale. more later on that subject.


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## Woodchopper (Mar 11, 2008)

> _Originally posted by loglugger_
> 
> While I was still logging I had a bumper sticker on my work pick up that said  I LIKE MY SPOTTED OWLS FRIED,  stopped for coffee one time  and I thought a lady in the parking lot was going to have a fist fight with me, tried to tell her it was just a joke but she wasn't going for it. Kind of funny now but I am not in the habit of fighting with strange women in a parking lot.
> Bob



Some people just have no sense of humor.

Dell


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