# we need a real test



## Rifleman1776 (Mar 9, 2008)

There is a mini-debate going on with another thread. It involves recommendations on tools for a beginner.
The question that has (sorta) evolved asks: With HSS tools, are expensive Henry Taylor, or similar, really better than lesser priced Grizzly's and even lower priced Harbor Freight?
Another forum I belong to, some members emphasized that there are various qualities of high speed steel. No doubt, that is probably very true.
But, I, and I assume many others, would like to know is Taylor really worth that much money, sometime $80.00 for one tool or is a $15.00 Grizzly just as good, or, maybe a $6.00 HF better?
I would like to see some kind of tests. Any ideas? Or volunteers?


----------



## jughead (Mar 9, 2008)

I own some Delta, Craftsman, 1 Crown, and 1 Sorby tools. The difference I notice is the Crown and Sorby keep an edge longer. I can not turn any better with the Sorby than I can with the Delta. Eagle said he uses H.F. tools.


----------



## TellicoTurning (Mar 9, 2008)

Frank,
I tend to be cheap (and on a limited fixed income), so it's really hard for me to pay $80 for a $15 tool... My personal opinion, for what very very little it's worth, is that the tool isn't what makes the pen or bowl... it the tool handler and his skills.  I only hope that I someday gain those skills.


----------



## Gary Max (Mar 9, 2008)

Gee Frank what about the $200.00 tools?????


----------



## Dario (Mar 9, 2008)

If the question is edge retention and whether there is difference between the high end HSS tools vs the cheap HSS ones...YES there is based on my limited experience.

I don't have the other maker/brands but IMHO and experience;

HSS HF is not as good as HSS Sorby, and
HSS Sorby is not as good as Crown ProPM

That said, I still mostly use my HF set on my pens and the wood probably cannot tell the difference.   If my funds is unlimited, I sure will replace the HF fast but for now, they do just fine.

As said...it is the Indian and not the arrow that matters.


----------



## fernhills (Mar 9, 2008)

I have both,the expensive tools are much better,you don`t have to buy them all at once,maybe one a year.they are expensive but not much more then dinner for two in a nice eatery,and not that much more then a case of beer,or quart of whiskey,its what you want to do.In time you will have them all cause the good ones stay good.. Carl


----------



## Ligget (Mar 9, 2008)

I have not got a proper sharpening system such as a Tormek.

So with that in mind if I were to buy really expensive tools the edge I would give them would be far from excellent.

So I think it would be a waste of money.[^]


----------



## Ron in Drums PA (Mar 9, 2008)

Frank

The debate was not about beginner's tools, if you look at the person who asked the question, he has been turning since 2004.

To answer your question:
I own a Sorby and a HF 1/2" skew, both retain their edge about the same.

There is something to be gained by buying a tool that is needs to be sharpen less, even if it cost 2-3 times the price.

I'll give you an example.
When I turn a 16" bubinga bowl I would need to sharpen a gouge 3-4 times before the bowl was complete. With Doug's gouge I was able to turn 5 bubinga bowls with a singe sharpening.

Sharpening less, means the tool lasts longer. I would have to wear out 15 to 20 bowl gouges before I wore out one of Doug's gouges. So where do you save money by buying a gouge that you have to sharpen more often?


----------



## Rifleman1776 (Mar 9, 2008)

I do have to echo, in part, what y'all have said. There is no argument that the difference between soft steel and HSS is dramatic. My experience, I'll limit to my most used tool, a 1" skew, was first with an El Cheapo set of dubious origin, probably Chinese but dunno, next was a garage sale buy Buck Bros. brand in "cast steel", whatever that meant and, currently, a new Taylor. The El Cheapo was OK and worked. Can't complain about it for a $4.00 investment. Garage sale Buck was better and even better _*value*_ at $5.00.  About a month ago I turned a pen from mahogany, first time for that wood, I used the Buck skew. Wadda chore and slow. Made me hate the wood. Had to sharpen frequently. Yesterday, I turned another one using the Taylor and got myself wondering what the problem was the first time. The difference was that dramatic. I now like turning that wood. I do like the Taylor HSS, stays sharp and touches up beautifully instead of having to be ground to be sharpened frequently. But, this does not demonstrate the difference between other tools like the Grizzly and/or Harbor Freight HSS tools. I would be interested in first hand comparisons of HF, Griz, Taylor, Sorby, etc. Looking for rich volunteers. I sure can't buy some of each.


----------



## Mudder (Mar 9, 2008)

My not so humble opinion, and I probably see things different than some.

An edge, is an edge, is an edge.

You can make mind boggling turnings with a sharpened screwdriver or a butter knife. I've seen it done.


Having said that I firmly believe that ANY TOOL is only as good as the edge that you put on it and how well you maintain that edge. For many years all that was available was carbon steel tools and folks did just fine with them. They learned how to keep a good edge and to recognize when the edge needed to be "touched up".

I had the pleasure of watching Allan Batty put on a presentation and he told the group that when he was an apprentice turner he only sharpened his tools first thing in the morning and the edge was maintained throughout the day with an oilstone and a piece of leather strop. As the science of metallurgy advances we have tools made from "tougher" grades of steel that will keep an edge much longer, BUT, If you do not sharpen the tool properly to begin with what do you really have? Lets think about that for a moment. 

I have a pretty vast array of tools and if anybody doubts me just ask and I'll bet I can show you more than 25 tools without breaking a sweat.I will not get into a debate over which steel is better for woodturning tools or if cryogenically treated tools are the best because anything I say is just what I believe and I an far from an authority on the subject, but I will close with this..... The skew chisel that I reach for when making that final planing cut on a spindle turning is a very old craftsman skew that is made from carbon steel. Why do I reach for this tool when I have at least a half dozen other skews of a better material? Simple, I cannot get my other skews as sharp as I can get this one and the cuts from this tool need little to no sanding.


----------



## loglugger (Mar 9, 2008)

You left out Benjamin's Best. I'll go with what Mudder said and it depends on how well you can sharpen a tool,I think it is a personal thing and will very with almost every one you ask.
Bob


----------



## Ron in Drums PA (Mar 9, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Mudder_
> 
> The skew chisel that I reach for when making that final planing cut on a spindle turning is a very old craftsman skew that is made from carbon steel. Why do I reach for this tool when I have at least a half dozen other skews of a better material? Simple, I cannot get my other skews as sharp as I can get this one and the cuts from this tool need little to no sanding.



You are right, High Carbon Steel can be sharpen shaper than HSS. The difference is with HSS is you forfeit a sharper edge for longer edge retention.

I'll also agree with you about screwdrivers as turning tools, I've made turning tools from allen wrenchs, cement nails and grade 8 washers. According to the wood, it don't care what type of edge it is as long as it is a edge. 

But if we are talking how long an edge lasts or how many times a tool can take a sharpening, then there is a world of difference.


----------



## R2 (Mar 9, 2008)

To me the ability of a tool to hold its edge is important, simply because of the time saving factor. I also believe a sharp tool is a safe tool and a tool that stays sharp for longer will be advantageous in that regard. However, some turners prefer one paticular brand gouge to another because of the flute shape and what they perceive  the diifferences, made by that, to be.


----------



## Mudder (Mar 9, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Ron in Drums PA_
> 
> But if we are talking how long an edge lasts or how many times a tool can take a sharpening, then there is a world of difference.



I agree with your statement but the comparison if one manufacturers tool to another is going to be nearly impossible and here is an example of why.

High Speed Steel is a generic term referring to steel that is alloyed with several different materials. One of them is tungsten, which is the major alloying element but it is also combined with molybdenum, cobalt and vanadium in varying amounts. All of these different alloys will have different properties such as hardness, abrasion resistance and so on. 

In order to have a valid comparison we would need to know the exact composition of each tool. We would also have to use the same wood and the same pressure for each test.

This link leads you to a chart that shows some properties of some well known types of "high speed steels"

http://www.icscuttingtools.com/Tooldata.htm

Another factor to consider is that my sharpening technique might remove .010" of material from the tool whereas your technique might only remove .005". Not to mention that my perception of a "sharp tool" is probably very different from yours. So given those two variables how can one give an accurate determination of how long an edge lasts or how many times a tool can take a sharpening?

It would go without saying that a Sorby, Crown, Henry Taylor and other high end tools would probably be made from the higher grade steels but if I go through 3 tools that cost $15.00 each compared to 1 tool at $60-$80 it's pretty much a no briner for me. I don't mind sharpening my tools, it gives me a "break" and time to take another look at what I'm doing and consider if I would like to do it another way.

I consider my turning tools and grinding wheels to be consumables and it is already figured into my "shop costs" so it is added in when I price my work.


----------



## Firefyter-emt (Mar 9, 2008)

I guess I am stubborn old school.  I still turn with HCS tools that are about 50 years old.  I have some HSS tools myself but for what I turn, and how much I turn, those HCS tools just can't be beat when it comes to how they work.  I will hand hone the skews many times before I re-grind the edge and for how old the tool is I really question just how MANY times you would really replace a chisel. I just can't see "using up" my skews over the next 10 to 25 years myself. 

Maybe someday I will "upgrade" to the Harbor Freight ones.


----------



## Ron in Drums PA (Mar 9, 2008)

Good link Scoot

Almost all of the cheap turning tools and most of the expensive tools made today uses M2 steel because it is inexpensive and has a "decent" amount of vanadium. Vanadium is the "ingredient" that gives metal a wear resistance edge.  As your link shows, M2 has 1.97% vanadium, Doug's tools, which uses A11 steel, has 9.75% vanadium. BTW - If you never heard of CPM 10V (A-11) steel, do a google to find out more.

I'm one of those turners who bought too many tools. I own tools from just about every brand out there. Tools such as Sorby, Talyor, HF, Grizzly, Packard, Ashley Iles, Crown and others that I'm forgetting to mention, just to find the "Perfect Tool". The one thing I learned is there is not much difference between the brands. 

As to how long an edge last, of course that a personal observation based on how I sharpen and use the tool. But when you start hearing dozens of professional turners say that the edge on Doug's tools longer, it has now become a consensus. This, along with the known fact that Doug's tools uses a steel that is well known in the industrial world for its high wear applications in dies and centerless grinders means a whole lot more than one person's observation.

There was a recent thread on another forum (I'll have to search for it if you want) where Bill Grumbine did a two day demo using one of Doug's tools and never had to sharpen bowl gouge once. 

I'm not saying that a beginner should run out and by Doug's tools, but this started topic started with someone who was not a beginner.

If a beginner asked me what tools to buy I would tell him to get a set of HF tools and then to buy one tool at a time once he found out what he enjoys to turn. And, I would point him to Doug's tools because for most hobby turners, they would never need to replace that tool because they wore it out. 

I agree with you about turning tools being consumables. I've also said that turning tools are way cheaper to buy than sandpaper. The following is from Doug's wbsite

_The cost to learn on a good tool is low when you break it down.

-The cost of a 1/2 bowl gouge is $50

-Useable flute length say 4 inches. Cost $12.50 per inch

-It can be ground say 50 times per inch. Cost $.25 per grind.

-Make a huge mistake and lose a 1/4 inch. Cost $3.12

This is a small price to pay... NOW to compare it with something else we use all the time... sandpaper ONE 2 inch disk is $.20 _

---
My last word on this subject - I get way more that 100 sharpenings per inch of tool


----------



## LEAP (Mar 9, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Firefyter-emt_
> 
> I guess I am stubborn old school.  I still turn with HCS tools that are about 50 years old.  I have some HSS tools myself but for what I turn, and how much I turn, those HCS tools just can't be beat when it comes to how they work.  I will hand hone the skews many times before I re-grind the edge and for how old the tool is I really question just how MANY times you would really replace a chisel. I just can't see "using up" my skews over the next 10 to 25 years myself.
> 
> Maybe someday I will "upgrade" to the Harbor Freight ones.



Sound like an excuse for being cheap


----------



## Firefyter-emt (Mar 9, 2008)

No excuses there Phil.. I am cheap!

My point though is that I would put a lot more money into a good sharpening system than the tools themself. Give me the best tool out there and no way to sharpen it properly and a brand new junk tool and the junk tool should work better than the top line that is not sharpened properly.


----------



## Gary Max (Mar 9, 2008)

What you folks need is to spend some time with a Alan Lacer skew---I was given one last year by a friend. Personally I will never go back to any of the lesser tools---There are several companys out there that make outstanding tools. 
Oh I have worn tools out from sharpening them. My gouge will last about 2 years--P&N--but remember I use it just about every day.
I would guess a lot of this tread has to do with--How much do you use your tools and what do you want them to do.
If I was just making pens I am sure that I would not need all the tools I have.


----------



## oldtoolsniper (Mar 10, 2008)

who is doug and where are his tools?


----------



## Ron in Drums PA (Mar 10, 2008)

Doug Thompson is just a regular guy who likes to turn and has a full time day job to pay the bills. He had a great idea on how to make a better tool and decided to make them for other turners. 

Doug is a one man operation and makes each tool himself. The only thing he does not do the the cryogenics, which he sends out.

http://www.thompsonlathetools.com/


----------



## Gary Max (Mar 10, 2008)

Heck I went and checked out his site---he ain't giving them away---more in the line of high end tools not the stuff they sell at HF.


----------



## Malainse (Mar 10, 2008)

What about the Carbide set that PSI sells ????  Just tossing the idea out there as I have never used them ???

http://www.pennstateind.com/store/lcpm3car.html


----------



## Ron in Drums PA (Mar 11, 2008)

I just found this PDF about the steel used in Thompson's Tools
http://www.crucibleservice.com/datash/ds10Vv7b.pdf


----------



## alamocdc (Mar 11, 2008)

Good debate here. My first turning tools were the "expensive" HF set. And I still use them regularly. I have since added 1 Sorby and 5 Benjamin's Best chisels. One is an oval skew and the other are bowl gouges. My experience falls in line with what has already been debated. I cannot tell much (if any) difference between the performance I get out of any of them. So for me, since our turning tools are consumables as Ron so eloquently put it, I'd rather do as Scott and pay 15$ three times, than $60 twice (assuming that the $60 tool will last a little longer between trips to the sharpening method of choice). But again, that's JMO.


----------



## Rifleman1776 (Mar 11, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Malainse_
> 
> What about the Carbide set that PSI sells ????  Just tossing the idea out there as I have never used them ???
> 
> http://www.pennstateind.com/store/lcpm3car.html



Prices seem reasonable. And the "may never need sharpening" is tempting. But, no doubt, they will need sharpening. And that is where the problem may lay. Special equipment will be needed to sharpen. Probably diamond embedded wheels. Haven't tried them. But, from here, they look impractical.


----------



## Dario (Mar 11, 2008)

Also note that you cannot get carbide as sharp as (HSS, vanadium or high carbon) steel.


----------



## Chasper (Mar 11, 2008)

I learned a lot in reading this, and it is useful since I'm thinking about getting some new tools.  However, I don't think anyone has truely addressed Frank's original question.  Has a test of getting and staying sharp been done?  There is seemingly conflicting anecodotal evidence about which gets sharpest, less doubt about which holds a sharp edge longest.  I looked online and could not find any data to support either HCS or HSS as the sharpest.

Right now I'm thinking Harbor Freight for new tools.


----------



## Ron in Drums PA (Mar 11, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Rifleman1776_
> 
> 
> 
> ...



We agree on something for a change. 

You would need diamond wheels or you would need to send them out to be sharpened,



> _Originally posted by alamocdc_
> 
> Good debate here.
> {snip}
> So for me, since our turning tools are consumables as Ron so eloquently put it, I'd rather do as Scott and pay 15$ three times, than $60 twice (assuming that the $60 tool will last a little longer between trips to the sharpening method of choice). But again, that's JMO.



What would you do if the tool would last 10 times longer?
How about 20 times longer?

http://familywoodworking.org/forums/showpost.php?p=92399&postcount=11


----------



## alamocdc (Mar 11, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Ron in Drums PA_
> What would you do if the tool would last 10 times longer?
> How about 20 times longer?
> 
> http://familywoodworking.org/forums/showpost.php?p=92399&postcount=11



Hhmmm, that might be a color of a different horse. If I could get the same edge and have it last that much longer, then the math speaks for itself.

Now I'm trying to figure out how I missed that post.[?]


----------



## PaulDoug (Mar 11, 2008)

> _Originally posted by fernhills_
> 
> I have both,the expensive tools are much better,you don`t have to buy them all at once,maybe one a year.they are expensive but not much more then dinner for two in a nice eatery,and not that much more then a case of beer,or quart of whiskey,its what you want to do.In time you will have them all cause the good ones stay good.. Carl



Ya "Honey, I'm not taking you out to dinner tonight, I want to buy a new lathe too instead"


I'd be wearing that tool!!!!


----------



## Dario (Mar 11, 2008)

On another post, I alluded to a professional turner who love Crown ProPM but hardly use it now after getting Thompson's gouge...I was referring to Bill Grumbine.  And as I said, I respect the guy so much that if he said it is that good...I'd believe him (no question asked).


----------



## rogerpjr (Mar 11, 2008)

I have a wide variety of tools from 30+ year old tool steel ones from Montgomery Ward to the Crown Pro PM.  I have quite a few of the Benjamin's Best from PSI and I've made many myself from O-1 tool steel or spring steel at my forge.

I can't tell the difference in use in any of them as long as I keep them sharp.  Some just need sharpened more often.

Of course, some will last longer based on the steel they are made from and how often they need sharpened, but I don't do a lot of grinding.  I grind primarily to change a edge shape/angle or if I knick or badly wear one.  Most of my sharpening is done on stones so the tools don't get worn down a lot.  Those old Wards chisels probably have less than 1/2" off the original length.


----------

