# Acrylic or acetate pen blanks



## Chris Bar (Jun 17, 2009)

Have been looking for the acetate form of plastic pen blanks but continue to see acrylic acetate as the material.  Am confused by this double identification unless the seller has developed a new combination material, does not know what they are selling or just names it in both terms and seeks absolution under a grandfather clause somewhere.  Reading Russ Fairfield's response to Acryl/Acetate on 030-02-2008, he states these materials are not the same, one being a synthetic from the petrochemical industry while the other a natural polymer from trees and cotton.

He states that the acrylic form is more brittle and more prone to cracks than the acetate.  

Does the pen turning business differentiate between these two materials?  I see acrylic and acrylic acetate on the Woodcraft site thus will be looking for other sources.  I posed this question and received the exact opposite response on turning characteristics between the two.


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## Ligget (Jun 18, 2009)

When I started penturning the place I bought my `synthetic` blanks from were selling them as Acrylic Acetate, so from then on I have used the term. Both the seller and myself may be wrong but I have never had a blank break or crack on me except when I was an inexperienced learner! :redface:


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## ed4copies (Jun 18, 2009)

Chris Bar said:


> Have been looking for the acetate form of plastic pen blanks but continue to see acrylic acetate as the material.  Am confused by this double identification unless the seller has developed a new combination material, does not know what they are selling or just names it in both terms and seeks absolution under a grandfather clause somewhere.  Reading Russ Fairfield's response to Acryl/Acetate on 030-02-2008, he states these materials are not the same, one being a synthetic from the petrochemical industry while the other a natural polymer from trees and cotton.
> 
> He states that the acrylic form is more brittle and more prone to cracks than the acetate.
> 
> Does the pen turning business differentiate between these two materials?  I see acrylic and acrylic acetate on the Woodcraft site thus will be looking for other sources.  I posed this question and received the exact opposite response on turning characteristics between the two.




I have great respect for Russ and am NOT arguing with his answer.

In the past 15 years, I have sought to accurately identify the types of plastics.  Let me know if YOU find an answer.  I have not.

Oh, I believe MOST of the sellers do not KNOW what they are selling.   I have asked MY sources and the information we provide comes from the manufacturer in Europe.


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## jleiwig (Jun 18, 2009)

Acrylic acid is mainly produced from propene, a gaseous by-product of oil refining.
The forms of Acetate that we would deal with are petrochemical based as welll.  

An acetate can be either a salt or an ester of acetic acid.

A salt being naturally derived by bacteria (think vinegar) , and an ester being a chemical compound.

That is all that acetate means.  

Acrylic is a chemical compound (of acrylic acid) which is in the vinyl family.  

The two together are what is considered a copolymer. Ever heard of PVA? Poly Vinyl Alcohol which is derrived from Poly Vinyl Acetate.  PVA glue?  Hello Titebond?  

I would hazard a guess than none of the blanks being billed as acrylic acetate are really such. It just sounds like a fancy name for what it really is, a plastic.  

As such technically you won't find an acetate blank because there is no such thing.  

Acrylic acetate and acetate itself have become generic terms for other chemical compounds.


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## ed4copies (Jun 19, 2009)

Justin,

You have convinced me that you know enough to be dangerous.  

Can you connect the dots?  Where does celluloid fit in?  Are there advantages (structurally) to one plastic vs. another as "pen making material"?  Does one offer a better opportunity for "depth" in the colors (more transparent, probably)?  Will any resins be better than others in the heat?   How hot does it have to get to make the various plastics "tacky"?

ANY and ALL information will be used, by me!!!!!  And thanks!!


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## Wheaties (Jun 19, 2009)

ed4copies said:


> Justin,
> 
> You have convinced me that you know enough to be dangerous.
> 
> ...


 
I second that! Since this has been brought up (and my engineering nature), I really want to know what's going on on a molecular level! I may have to start my own research, but in the meantime, I'll wait for the expert opinion. :biggrin:


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## Daniel (Jun 19, 2009)

I have always heard it as acrylic acetate. never considered if it was accurate or not.


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## ed4copies (Jun 19, 2009)

Daniel said:


> I have always heard it as acrylic acetate. never considered if it was accurate or not.




Don't believe anything you  read or hear from a supplier, until you have confirmed it with the manufacturer.  Better yet, get a Material Safety Data Sheet and make sure THAT confirms the above.  Lying on the data sheet can result in HUGE implications, so most won't do that.


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## DCBluesman (Jun 19, 2009)

For those of you who are serious about the study of plastics, here are two vital links to basic information. http://www.americanchemistry.com/s_plastics/sec_learning.asp?CID=1102&DID=4256

http://www.plasticsindustry.org/

And what's this stuff we lovingly refer to as PR or polyester resin? Well, here is a sampling of the variety even within the category of PR.


casting type resins 
chemical resistant resins 
clear casting type resins 
cold press type resins 
continuous laminating resins 
filament winding resins 
flame retardant resins 
general purpose resinshi 
gloss resins 
grp type resins 
hand lay-up resins 
hot press bmc resins 
hot press smc resins 
infusion type resins 
lower styrene emission (LSE) resins 
ncs type breton resins 
plasticizing flexible resins 
pultrusion type resins 
putty resins 
resins for electric motors 
resins for mold production 
rtm light type resins 
rtm type resins 
sewer rehabilitation-renewing resins 
solid surface resins 
spray-up resins 
translucent resins 
vacflo resins 
vacuum bagging resins 
vacuum injection resins
Then we have PMMA (poly methyl methacrylate), the most common of which is Lucite, however there are dozens of different formulations.

Each of the formulations boasts different strengths and weaknesses. Clarity, melting point, shatter-resistance, etc. are just a few of the characteristics. So, good luck with the table. I think I'll just use what works for me and discard what doesn't. It's not scientific, but at least I don't need a PhD.


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## jleiwig (Jun 19, 2009)

ed4copies said:


> Justin,
> 
> You have convinced me that you know enough to be dangerous.
> 
> ...


 
Celluloid was one of the original thermoplastics.  I believe it's been around since the mid 1800s.  One of the ways to distinguish real celluloid is by the smell.  This is because it was originally made with camphor and nitrocellulose, plus nitrogen, dye, and alcohol.  A very volatile combo! 

A really neat website with a timeline of plastic development and a little bit about all the different plastics is http://www.plastiquarian.com/ind3.htm

As far as one being better than the other....We could have the perfect pen resin developed to our specifications, however companies like CCP and Reichold usually require a minimum order of 50 tons or so!  That's why they usually deal with middle men like Composites ones or their competitors. 

For the small guy it's really hard to get something custom developed.  The guys at Alumalite have taken an interest in the pen turning world, by asking our opinions of products like the new Crystal Clear resin, however the cost makes it hard to swallow for someone just starting out and prone to messing up their first dozen or so casts.  

As you and Dawn and many others have realized what we really have is a guessing game, certain things work well, but others do not.  And certain things effect resins differently.  A change in humidity and temperature can have a different effect on the resins, which causes changes in your other processes down the line.  

Honestly I think right now the best bet for penturners is to look into swing resins. Swing resins have the ability to take a much higher load of fillers than regular resins.  They are commonly used in the manufacture of cultured marble and like products.  

I have a call into Composites One and CCP to see if they still sell a swing resin that we could use at a price that is reasonable.  ItsVirgil and Oklahoman currently use this resin with good results.  

The next step after that would be experimentation to figure out what additives do what to the resin.  Powdered stone to make turquoise blanks, powdered metal to make damascus blanks, so on and so forth.  

They make webbing and marbling compounds for use in gel coats, adding those to the matrix may add the veining that we're looking for, or it may not allow the resin to gel at all. 

One thing I intend to try is Vacuum infusion.  I used this process in making carbon fiber parts for cars and motorcycles in another life, and it may work for stabilizing woods or other materials  like micarta.  It's very cost prohibitive though, as there is a lot of consumable material costs.  

I honestly feel as penturners we have just scratched the surface of what is available to us.  I'm also curious if there are any water clear vinylester resins or epoxy resins that are turnable.  I haven't honestly researched it that much.

So...did I answer your original question..not specifically, because that would take lots of research that I'm not yet commited to doing.  :tongue:  The Holy Grail is out there.  It's just going to take dogged determination and deep pockets to find it.


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## ed4copies (Jun 19, 2009)

Thanks to Justin and Lou.

I now have enough reading material for the weekend!!


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## jleiwig (Jun 19, 2009)

ed4copies said:


> Thanks to Justin and Lou.
> 
> I now have enough reading material for the weekend!!


 
Be careful!  It's really brain draining stuff.  Sometimes just the way a polymer can crosslink with another polymer can change the whole matrix.  

I'd suggest looking at each of the major manufacturers of resins and read their product literature.  There is no real reason to know the chemistry behind it unless you want to sound like your educated. Hopefully their literature will detail the certain characteristics you want to emulate in your finished product.  Depending on the filler load we don't necessarily need a water clear product, so it may expand the product lines we can look into exponentially.


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## ed4copies (Jun 19, 2009)

Justin,

I have posed this question MANY times and never got an answer I considered very helpful, until today.  

I like KNOWING what I am talking about.  The industry has referred to celluloid and I knew it wasn't, then acrylic-celluloid which I highly doubt, now many types of resins are all just "acrylic", which they are NOT.  I have always wanted to speak accurately.  This will help me say "I really don't KNOW" a few fewer times, to MY customers.

I appreciate that.


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## jleiwig (Jun 19, 2009)

ed4copies said:


> Justin,
> 
> I have posed this question MANY times and never got an answer I considered very helpful, until today.
> 
> ...


 
No problem...and the reason is that no one wants to say they are paying $100 for a plastic pen.  A Bic is plastic too!


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## thewishman (Jun 19, 2009)

ed4copies said:


> Will any resins be better than others in the heat?   How hot does it have to get to make the various plastics "tacky"?



I have torture-tested (not waterboarding) my pens in a black leather binder (from Woodturningz) in the sun in a very hot car for several days. The only negative effects were one celluloid pen got grooves from the wide elastic bands and one acrylic acetate developed a slight ridge where the light blue and dark blue colors met. Stabilized woods, truestones and all other plastics were fine.


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