# Coming Soon, VENDOR FORUMS!



## jeff (Sep 19, 2013)

After discussing the subject for almost a year, we've decided to implement something which has proven successful elsewhere; Vendor Forums. Vendor Forums are a place for vendors to advertise, announce, help, and communicate about topics specific to their products, services, and business operations. 

The mod team had helped me draft these guidelines, and now I'd like to have your input as well. 

These forums will open on Oct 1, but ahead of that we are open to positive changes in the concept and operations. If you are so inclined, have a look at the link above and post any comments you have in this thread. 

Thanks for reading and for your comments!


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## bobjackson (Sep 19, 2013)

Great idea Jeff.


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## Joe S. (Sep 19, 2013)

Looks good to me, can't wait to see them!


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## jeff (Sep 19, 2013)

Thanks, I appreciate the comments!


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## Jim15 (Sep 19, 2013)

I think it's a great addition.


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## maxwell_smart007 (Sep 19, 2013)

Don't be afraid to post constructive feedback - now's the time to to tweak what needs to be tweaked!


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## PenPal (Sep 19, 2013)

In reference to the proposed new Vendor Forums I will comment 

One would have to be unusual not to value the opportunity to have advance notice of customer benefits the only addition to bargain as in Asia has not been included thankfully.

When opening, closing, editing, ability to create stickies additional guidlines for vendors will be necessay and advised to general members so as to prevent angst at change times. Otherwise we members may look for motives that may not exist or feel cheated etc also the vendor needs protection from fellow vendors.

Positive action taken to prevent loading with look this vendor sold this product here is an example insisting on these going to the Show your pens should take care of this.

I would like the freedom to purchase a blank without acknowledging the maker of the blank or the kit supplier. Eg when I buy a new car I personally strip the vehicle of dealer advertising my thinking is I already paid for the product. Courtesy should be voluntary not expected.

Most existing vendors do contribute on other sections of the forum suspect are those contributions hiding advertising or forecasting future intentions that rightly belong to the vendors new forum.

Altogether IMHO a well drawn up preparatory document ready for fine tuning that should satisfy and separate members and vendors. At the moment some vendors make multiple answers or posts to push their products called shades of grey IMHO.

To all those vendors out there I am personally indebted following my pleasant association with my purchases. Removing vendors web sites and pics and etc from general contributions would lesson the space to get to the point in general forum use. Perhaps the lengthy Pithy or religeous quotes being removed as well.

Thankyou Jeff for inviting general comment on this important step and keeping the fee so moderate for vendors as well.

Kind regards Peter.


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## edstreet (Sep 20, 2013)

Correct me if I'm wrong and dense but isn't this what the 'vendor catalogs' is suppose to be?


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## robutacion (Sep 20, 2013)

G'day Jeff,

I'm pretty certain that you have been waiting for my reply, on an issue that has been a "stone in the shoe" for me and I'm sure to you and some of the mods.  I could not miss the invitation to express my thoughts of these changes that I knew have been "cooking" for some time, and that, I have a lot to do it, like it or not.

Sure, I appreciate "anything" that can stop some of the insinuations and accusations that I have been getting for some time and while I have no interest in having rules modified to accommodate me, I would be simply glad to know that I can post something and not being accused of stealth advertisement, general advertisement or simply, trying to promote my products and or what I want to sell...!

I'm not 100% sure that, this "vendors forum" is it, as I'm quite confused/unsure about some of its constrains and criteria.  I've read it twice and I got the same "gut feeling" so, and so that I can make the correct interpretation of that you are presenting "us" with, I need to "break apart" what you are offering and request that you make the necessary corrections and clearly point out any areas that I'm totally out...!

OK so, if I understand it correctly, you want to separate the vendors from the normal members so, where do the "normal" members that also sell a few items on IAP, belongs to...???

Are you considering a "vendor", someone to joined to IAP with the only intent to sell, someone that is selling items occasionally but is not a business, but a hobbyist like myself or, a registered business person with the intent to sell its products to the IAP members...???

I acknowledge your "qualifying vendors" descriptions, on the rules content text however, I'm not sure if the "general" members understand what it means, I consider myself a "general" member and not a vendor, at least until now therefore, I'm uncertain if this apply to me or I'm missing something...!

Furthermore, I need some clarification of the following;

*- Is the monthly charge to be registered under the vendors forum, of $25 until the end of 2013, the replacement for the $10.00 per add cost under Premium Classifieds or any other add charges for other options, under the present rules...???

*- Is this $25.00 monthly fee, going to be increased after the 1/1/2014 within "reason" or we are going to see a 400% increase of that fee...???

*- Is a "vendors forum" member, allowed to run as many adds and as at intervals as they want...??? (a sense of concern, here...!)

*- Can the vendors forum members have any information as they so wish, in their "signature"...???

*- Where can a vendor forum member post pics and discuss issues of items that he/she makes from his/her stock, regardless if some of that stock has been sold, is on sale or will be sold on IAP or elsewhere, and as a general IAP member...???

I was pretty happy to pay my $10.00 for every time I decided to post an add, I prefer the idea of paying for a service, when I decide I want that service than have to pay a monthly fee regardless if I use it or not so, I'm divided about that, as I have a gut feeling that tells me that the $25.00 offered at the moment is only "peanuts" compared with what will be in the very near future, I may be wrong, we sure will find out...!

On the perspective of things, if a "fair" monthly fee is all it takes to avoid some of the situations, that I've found myself into, on IAP, in relation to "advertising" insinuations and or interpretations from other members and mods, I couldn't be happier however, please excuse me for my reluctance, life experience has taught me that, "if it sounds too good to be truth, is probably because, it is...!"

I have been wrong before, and will not be the last time, I have been waiting for a damn long time for changes of the "advertising" rules, I understand well the amount of time and effort that you and your mods have put into this, that I don't dispute but I commend, one can never please everyone, regardless so, I may feel a little more confident after I see what comments you are going to make, from this post contents...!:wink::biggrin:

With all due respect,

Cheers
George


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## pensbydesign (Sep 20, 2013)

why not get rid of the selling all together 
keep the vender links and that's it if someone whats to by they go there web site leaving this place to be what it was intended to be


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## CHARLES STOPCZYNSKI (Sep 20, 2013)

*All for it...*

Jeff,

Thanks to you and the gang for this innovative feature.

The membership can *only* benefit from this undertaking.

Charlie


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## jeff (Sep 20, 2013)

edstreet said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong and dense but isn't this what the 'vendor catalogs' is suppose to be?



No. Vendor catalogs are static posts. Vendor forums are places for discussion and multiple threads with information and announcements.


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## edicehouse (Sep 20, 2013)

I for one think it will be a great addition to the site.  It will be really great to be able to ask what others think about specific things that one vender sells, or hey are you going to be getting such and such in.


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## Monty (Sep 20, 2013)

I may have missed it, but will this replace or be in addition to the current Classifieds?


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## jeff (Sep 20, 2013)

edicehouse said:


> I for one think it will be a great addition to the site.  It will be really great to be able to ask what others think about specific things that one vender sells, or hey are you going to be getting such and such in.



You can certainly ask now what other people think of particular products. Vendor forums are not the place to do that. It's for the vendors to communicate with the members about their products, not for the members to discuss back and forth about their products.


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## bruce119 (Sep 20, 2013)

Monty said:


> I may have missed it, but will this replace or be in addition to the current Classifieds?



Boy I sure hope not....Most of the little guys got pushed out with the first set of rule changes when the charges started...I'm talking the back-yard guys with just a trickle of sales and no store brick or web. 


This would seem like a great deal for the BIG guy....BUT I fear what it mite do for the back-yard guy. Which we all know some of the most unique, original and best deals come from (and start with) the small time member. I really think we have become a little more commercialized. We don't want to lose the small member selling that is were the best deal is going to be.....


.


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## penmaker56 (Sep 20, 2013)

Jeff, I think this is a good idea, it would give the vendor a resource to announce a new low cost item, when they come out, instead of waiting until I have enough items to warrant the cost of an ad, as I mentioned to you earlier, sometimes the profits from an item doesn't cover the cost of a $5 ad. 

And, there has been many times, when perusing the posts, when someone is looking for something specific and where to get it, and I have it in stock, but I can not say "I have it on my site" because of the vendor rules. This would give the vendor an opportunity to respond.


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## gimpy (Sep 20, 2013)

I believe this will be a great feature to the site


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## robutacion (Sep 20, 2013)

pensbydesign said:


> why not get rid of the selling all together
> keep the vender links and that's it if someone whats to by they go there web site leaving this place to be what it was intended to be



You know...??? I actually see some merit in that and quite frankly, it could be a great solution for IAP.

Considering that the vast majority of members have a web site, or a place where his/hers items (mostly pens) are sold, everyone has the opportunity to create an add on eBay, etsy, and so many other possible places, would be extremely easy to have a section on IAP where, anyone could put a link to their sale, anyone interested would have a look, if sold, the item would be removed by the member that put in there in the first place.

The problem is, why would any forum create a section within their "space" to facilitate sales to others and not wanting a slice of the cheese...???

It all comes down to $$$'s...! period:wink::biggrin:

Cheers
George


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## bruce119 (Sep 20, 2013)

I don't know I used to see the classifieds as a place for members to great one of a kind materials. And IAP was the ONLY place you could get them...Now everything is becoming commercialized. Not ALL the small member vendors have web sites....

.


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## alphageek (Sep 20, 2013)

bruce119 said:


> I don't know I used to see the classifieds as a place for members to great one of a kind materials. And IAP was the ONLY place you could get them...Now everything is becoming commercialized. Not ALL the small member vendors have web sites....
> 
> .



Bruce, its funny that you say that.   Much of the rules changes were made BECAUSE of complaints that things were too commercialized all over the site.   

As a member (not speaking as a mod here), I think Jeff is doing a great job.  he is putting things into appropriate areas.   For those who say "don't allow it at all" - they have the ability to turn those areas off.   No need to take it away from those that want it.    As you said - IAP was the ONLY place to get some of those "commercial" items from small people.   Jeff would be crazy to send them elsewhere by not allowing any sales at all.

As for the classifieds - this raises an interesting point.   This new area would be a perfect place for the bigger vendors - no need to pay for an ad for each announcement, etc.    This will likely remove those vendors from the classifieds areas.   I have no inside information into Jeffs thoughts, but it wouldn't surprise me if the classifieds area would get some kind of re-work or simplification if this new idea sticks.

That being said, I see this from another view.   Again - NOT AS A MOD but as a member - I have very little sympathy for the small vendors who refuse to buy ads.  Running a website of your own can be a ton of work.    Getting people to those websites can be even harder.   At IAP, those small vendors have a large pool of buyers available to them.   Membership is free, so if you make a profit from selling on IAP, I feel that a fee to help support what Jeff has here is a reasonable price to pay.

Dean


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## robutacion (Sep 20, 2013)

alphageek said:


> bruce119 said:
> 
> 
> > I don't know I used to see the classifieds as a place for members to great one of a kind materials. And IAP was the ONLY place you could get them...Now everything is becoming commercialized. Not ALL the small member vendors have web sites....
> ...



Now, this I agree with, completely...!

George


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## ed4copies (Sep 20, 2013)

pensbydesign said:


> why not get rid of the selling all together
> keep the vender links and that's it if someone whats to by they go there web site leaving this place to be what it was intended to be



"What it was intended to be" was a place for exchange of information.

When I was "just a member", before Exotics, many people praised the input I gave--freely allowing other members to avoid pitfalls I had experienced in the decade of penmaking and selling at shows that preceeded my joining the IAP.  I frequently referred to products available at the various vendors, by name and vendor---there were no objections that I know of.

So, when Exotics started, I sought the opportunity to add those same products to our "offerings".  I continued to tell people about my selling experiences---helping THEM avoid the same mistakes I made.  However, because Dawn and I were SELLING those products--it was now advertising and had to be "regulated" according to some very vocal members (most of whom left the IAP once those regulations were in place--"mission accomplished, why stick around").

To be honest, I have no problem paying for advertising on the IAP.

With nearly 20,000 comments, I am always amused that some accuse me of "always advertising".  Were it not for ExoticBlanks, I probably would NOT have taken the time to create a couple dozen FREE YouTubes, that have gleaned more than 70,000 views---completely apart from IAP.  You see, there are many who would pay to hear what I have to say and call it a good investment---here I have to pay to tell you, now.

An interesting world.

Will I participate?  

The IAP truly BUILT ExoticBlanks.  We would not have conceived of the idea, were there not "artists" looking for a way to sell in late 2009.  The IAP is our "roots".  And absolutely, we will water those roots.  I am proud to call Jeff Brown a friend and any way I can help build IAP, I am there!!

I believe this will further relegate my comments to my own forum.  So, for those who want to continue to get my "free advice"---better follow our forum or our FaceBook pages.  

Thanks for reading,

IAP member Ed4copies. 
one-half of ExoticBlanks.com


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## jeff (Sep 20, 2013)

pensbydesign said:


> why not get rid of the selling all together
> keep the vender links and that's it if someone whats to by they go there web site leaving this place to be what it was intended to be



This place is supposed to be the place where all penmaking roads cross.

Buying stuff is an integral part of penmaking, and our member vendors are good contributors to our community.


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## jeff (Sep 20, 2013)

Monty said:


> I may have missed it, but will this replace or be in addition to the current Classifieds?



It will be in addition. 

We might go down to a single classifieds forum in the future (3-6 months maybe), but not immediately. I am cognizant of the need for our smaller vendors to have an inexpensive place to advertise.


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## jeff (Sep 20, 2013)

My responses below. I snipped out the comments and left the questions:



robutacion said:


> I'm not 100% sure that, this "vendors forum" is it, as I'm quite confused/unsure about some of its constrains and criteria.  I've read it twice and I got the same "gut feeling" so, and so that I can make the correct interpretation of that you are presenting "us" with, I need to "break apart" what you are offering and request that you make the necessary corrections and clearly point out any areas that I'm totally out...!
> 
> It's a place for vendors to communicate information about their products and business to our members and where members can ask specific questions about the vendor's products.
> 
> ...



Hope that helps.


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## Akula (Sep 20, 2013)

What was broke?


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## robutacion (Sep 20, 2013)

jeff said:


> My responses below. I snipped out the comments and left the questions:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hi Jeff,

It sure does and remember that, I may be too directly "involved" with the reason why you are trying to create this new vendors forum however, make no mistake, there many folks out there that may have similar questions as mine but being "uncomfortable" to say something so, I believe my questions/concerns and doubts are not only applicable to me...!

I believe also important that EVERYONE here as a correct understanding of what this Vendors Forum is/represent, after all they/we are the ones to have to deal with it so, it seems fair that someone as to ask the questions...!

Before I go any further, I want to make sure you and everyone else understand that, I'm most interested in having the "advertisement" issue in IAP, clarified, simplified, fairer and affordable, I don't have all the magic" answers but believe a common ground is possible to find, in the name of the "compromise" principle however, I see some negatives of this idea that may spoil any of its positives, and that concerns me.

Theses are some of the areas of concern;

*- While my initial impression was that, the "vendor Forum" would replace any other existent classifieds rules and adds requirements, something that I thought could be a good step to implement, creating a "small/fair" fee for registration and then, a 10% of the sales final value (excluding shipping)  donated to IAP as a condition of registration.

Those small vendors or members that may have something that they need/want to sell, could do so for 10% of their items value, this is when the small registration fee is most important, most of these people would sell something a couple of times each year so, the new vendors forum could have a second condition that anyone is allowed to make 2 adds per year with value no higher than $100.00, free of the registration fee.

I certainly miss the small and spontaneous sales of a hand full of blanks that aren't common to see/find, I've made lots of those purchases and I never had a single problem with any of the people behind it.  I may be myself, one of those people and I understand well why we don't see them anymore, which is a shame, in my view.

Concluding this "subject", I have to say that, after you made it clear that, the vendors forum is not substituting nothing, but simple being another payable requirement, if a normal member that sells also stuff on IAP want to post something without having it deleted or tagged as "advertisement"...!:frown:

I find this a most upsetting and stressing situation, being always concerned how the mods will interpret the post/thread and what some of our "jealous" members will do to have it removed/deleted. Is certainly not easy, to be me....!

*- There is one other issue that this new vendors forum will mean for some of us and I have to totally agree with Ed, when he posted this,_ "You see, there are many who would pay to hear what I have to say and call it a good investment---here I have to pay to tell you, now."_

Yes, I'm no different, I have people that want to pay to have me teaching them stuff related to penturnings and general wood turning, blanks making, casting, stabilising, and all the stuff I come up with, I spend many hours writing instructions, advice and how to's on IAP, I also spend a considerable amount of time making, preparing, photographing stuff that I may or not ever sell however, I take the time to incentive other/anyone to have a go and become good at it, the problem is that, I sell some of that stuff elsewhere, and sometimes on IAP, I try never to use the term "I sell" on my posts or show too many of the same stuff but, for god sake, why do I have to be so scrutinized, only because I make stuff that I also sell...???

As Ed said, and even though we are a world apart when it comes to selling stuff, is our knowledge, experience and willingness to share, worthless to IAP...???
IAP no doubt, provides us with a "place" where we can just do that, some of us may the the reason why, so many new members are joining in, one has to ask what they are doing so, is that because they found it by accident or, some of us are encouraging others to join in and participate in the learning process of penturning, there becomes a commitment for us (is for me, anyway) to support and coach these persons all the way through.

Are "we" doing this so that these people feel obligated to buy stuff from us...??? absolutely not, they have full control of what and to whom they want to buy their stuff from, buying some from you as a way to say "thank you" sure, we/I can appreciate that however, did I ever rejected to help anyone if I knew the blanks were purchase from someone else...???? seriously...? I don't give a damn however, if the problem as occurred with any of my blanks, there some additional stuff I can do, after all, the methods to work my blanks are the same as any blanks from anyone else so, the "principals" still apply the same...!

And this is where I agree with Ed, and certainly not a good position to be in, there is, as soon as we say something about a product that we also sell, even if is to assist someone in troubles, we get the "cane"...!

So, is IAP becoming a place where "vendors" or anyone that sells something here, going to be punished and be kept in a box, out the back where the deal becomes, you sell stuff so we squeeze the most dollars out of you and if you want to open your mouth, you pay us for the privilege...!

Seriously...???? do I have to pay a fee to explain/show/assist others with a problem if the product is something that I sell...??? do you guys (you and mods) realise that this is exactly what this new "idea" looks like...???

In the end of the day, I'm only trying to get some clarification and in the process, if I can highlight anything that you believe may have been underlooked or not taken into consideration at all then, I would see it with a more constructive bases that what I'm trying to offer, already.

Yes, I would like to see the advertisement issue on IAP resolved with a solution that will be beneficial to all, or at least to the vast majority, is impossible to please everybody and that is a fact...!

Give me your thoughts, please...!:wink::biggrin:

Cheers
George


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## ed4copies (Sep 20, 2013)

Hey George!!

Since you quoted me, I feel I should explain further:  Yes, as a member I feel I have lost the right to "speak freely".  And, often I admit I resent that.

However, the rules were thought necessary to control the "infighting" that was occurring and, they have served and continue to serve that purpose.

I have learned to "peacefully co-exist" with the advertising rules and, usually if I want to say something I just pays my five bucks and says my peace---a classified ad---and no one can reply!
(If you had been here when Cav and I bantered often, you would realize how much fun this has taken away from my IAP membership--but "peace" has a price and I accept that).

Is this fair to a vendor?  Life isn't fair--and as a purely economic consideration, the members of the IAP have helped Dawn and I establish a thriving little company.  Where else can I find a group of 500-2000 willing "listeners" as I talk about "pen-making"??  The IAP provides us with this soap box.  And the IAP has overhead to pay.  I see absolutely NO reason why the IAP should NOT ask ExoticBlanks to "kick in a few bucks" each month.  

As for a "commission" system---sorry George the level of honesty in society is just not there!  I have watched several people avoid the advertising fee ($5) by claiming things were "personal items" and should have no cost "member ads."  Amazing since those same items were on their commercial websites or ebay or etsy just a couple days earlier.  

I often hear advertisers say they did not break even on IAP ads.  I submit that the purpose of an ad is to get people to LOOK AT your merchandise.  When I run an ad here, I can expect 200 people to look at it, on it's first trip through the front page.  About 25% or more will click on one of the links to Exotics.  OFTEN, NO ONE BUYS!!!

That ad still has had value--tomorrow, later this week, they will come back when they have the time and are comfortable.  

IF you don't think that happens, then your products are not attractive--NOT the fault of the IAP.

FWIW,

Ed


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## ed4copies (Sep 20, 2013)

Akula said:


> What was broke?



warning, this is NOT meant to be serious, but it IS an interesting observation, I believe:

We often hear: If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

If "mother nature" felt that way, we'd all be monkeys swinging from vines, why was there a "need" to evolve any further?

The IAP is evolving.


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## Akula (Sep 20, 2013)

Well, we still have monkeys


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## Russknan (Sep 20, 2013)

I have read this thread with some interest. Perhaps, because I've only been a member for a year and a half, I'm lacking an important historical perspective which would have helped explain the underpinnings of the controversy. However, here's another view from someone who has yet to try to sell anything, and probably won't ever do so here. When I joined IAP, I was extremely green, having made only a few pens on my own. Although so many members have been extraordinarily helpful, some of the BEST assistance I've received has been from people who also sell things. And, I must say that George and Ed have been at the very top of that list. And I've gone to those wells many times. Indeed, I probably wouldn't have approached them so directly if I hadn't seen both their work, the instruction they provide, and their creativity. This is not being written to compliment two specific guys, but rather to say that I can't ever remember being offended by anybody here's having indicated that they also sell stuff. If somebody were simply saying, "Notice: now I'm selling this or that" without any other context, that would be offensive. But has there really been a legitimate problem with abuse over the last year and a half? I haven't seen it. Just another perspective. Russ


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## jeff (Sep 20, 2013)

robutacion said:


> jeff said:
> 
> 
> > My
> ...


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## Dan Masshardt (Sep 20, 2013)

Akula said:


> Well, we still have monkeys



And we'll still have classified ads.


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## edstreet (Sep 20, 2013)

Dan Masshardt said:


> Akula said:
> 
> 
> > Well, we still have monkeys
> ...



So this brings up some good points to make.  if a classified ad does not have class is it still considered a classified ad?  Now before anyone jumps all over me consider this.



> clas·si·fied
> [klas-uh-fahyd] Show IPA
> adjective
> 1.
> ...




Now that is out of the way I have to ask this. Will there also be any provisions to include things like SPF and DKIM for this new section?


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## Monty (Sep 21, 2013)

edstreet said:


> ...things like SPF and DKIM for this new section?


OK Ed, I'm now in the same state as you.


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## edstreet (Sep 21, 2013)

Monty said:


> edstreet said:
> 
> 
> > ...things like SPF and DKIM for this new section?
> ...



In non-technical terms these two things (and a few other items that I did not mention) is email and domain name protection.  When email is sent out from IAP, i.e. notice reply's to forum post, etc., they pass through various filtering options and rules on the receiving side.  A good heavy bulk of mta (email) admins has filters based on ad's and the like.  If IAP added those to the domain name and mta server(s) it would have less chance of being flagged and treated as spam then be black listed in the big services (i.e. spamhaus) that monitors source locations.

This is just extra added protection for IAP, also reduced liability, in case some email post gets into a spam trap or various other setups.

Not only spam but forgery and the like is a growing problem.  Having DKIM ensures the email is indeed legit and came from a specific source. Essentially it is saying this email came from IAP, we signed it and it is not spam/forgery/junk.  Yahoo, Gmail, Aol and others have these setup right now for all email services.

One other added benefit is when email and the like does get sent out receiving email servers checks to see if the sender is a legit and authorized sender by checking the domain name information.  If the sending server is not on the list then that email will get rejected.  This protects all email going out and ensure the email is indeed legit, valid and from a known good source.

DomainKeys Identified Mail - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sender Policy Framework - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Smitty37 (Sep 21, 2013)

alphageek said:


> bruce119 said:
> 
> 
> > I don't know I used to see the classifieds as a place for members to great one of a kind materials. And IAP was the ONLY place you could get them...Now everything is becoming commercialized. Not ALL the small member vendors have web sites....
> ...


I am currently one of the bigger users of classifieds - I am also hardly a "big" vendor.  

I view the new forum as reducing - but not eliminating my use of classifieds where I now am often forced to use a classified to make informational announcements that really don't result in sales. The new forum frees me from that. 

Also the new forum is not free...the vendors will be paying (to begin) the amount of 5 regular classified's per month.  Those who cant bear that fee can just use the classifieds.

Additionally we pay for the catalogs.  This is OK and it allows me to keep my business aimed at IAP members - frankly if I wanted to get bigger and do more business through other venues I would be doing that.

One other point, vendors often see questions (or statements) in other forums that we can't respond to -  usually regarding "lowest" priced source, finishes available, availablility of spare parts etc.


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## Smitty37 (Sep 21, 2013)

bruce119 said:


> I don't know I used to see the classifieds as a place for members to great one of a kind materials. And IAP was the ONLY place you could get them...Now everything is becoming commercialized. Not ALL the small member vendors have web sites....
> 
> .


You still can Deals, Trades, Gifts and Wants forum.  You have free access to that for selling off those onesy, twosy items and people seem to make full use of them.


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## jeff (Sep 21, 2013)

Smitty37 said:


> I am currently one of the bigger users of classifieds - I am also hardly a "big" vendor.
> 
> I view the new forum as reducing - but not eliminating my use of classifieds where I now am often forced to use a classified to make informational announcements that really don't result in sales. The new forum frees me from that.
> 
> ...



Smitty

Since you brought up the catalogs... I anticipate any "package" we put together for Vendor Forums would include a catalog. You'll also be able to put a sticky post in your forum which contains your catalog and link to it from the Catalog Forum. 

Regarding your statement about not being able to respond to questions. 

What we tried to eliminate with the rules changes in 2011 was the "I sell that, it's $xx.xx and here is the link, and oh by the way it's better than so and so's." That was occurring in general discussions. The discussion would be going along and then a vendor would pop in with "oh you should try our so and so product."

One of the things I'd consider in the Vendor Forums is a spot for "where do I buy". I hesitate because that's currently allowed in the DTG&W forum. You can respond to any "wanted" post there with a direct link to your product.


----------



## jeff (Sep 21, 2013)

Smitty37 said:


> bruce119 said:
> 
> 
> > I don't know I used to see the classifieds as a place for members to great one of a kind materials. And IAP was the ONLY place you could get them...Now everything is becoming commercialized. Not ALL the small member vendors have web sites....
> ...



DTG&W is for personally owned items. Extra stuff. If someone makes things for sale, that's not the place. Does that hurt the "little guy"? I've heard that argument, but I believe we've pretty much debunked the idea that a $5 classified puts someone out of business.


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## Smitty37 (Sep 21, 2013)

jeff said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > I am currently one of the bigger users of classifieds - I am also hardly a "big" vendor.
> ...


 I wasn't complaining Jeff, I was just pointing to that as perhaps another reason for having the vendor forums.


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## maxwell_smart007 (Sep 21, 2013)

I thought I might put my thoughts in as well: 

The advantages of vendor forums seem to be plentiful:
-  Vendors will be encouraged to participate more, especially in their own forums, and provide more info and tips that they were rather limited 
- moderation tasks will be reduced, as vendors will not be looking for opportunities to peddle wares in the wrong areas
- vendors will not be as 'muzzled' regarding announcements and updates - for example, a vendor who wants to discuss a potential issue or assembly quirk with a pen will not have to buy a separate classified to announce it. 
- the classified will now be used for selling items only, not announcements like 'we're going to be away for a week - don't expect shipment immediately' and things like that 
- smaller vendor sales in the classifieds will continue, and they won't be overshadowed by mega-classified postings, from the bigger vendors
- vendors are now given choices - the separate forums are not a requirement, they're an option, much like the vendor catalogs! 

For the regular member: 
- more opportunities for getting information
- streamlined info source - ability to find where to look more quickly
- opportunity to block areas (or members) they don't want to receive updates from in their feeds
- very little change regarding their day-to-day experience
- ability to find all the info in the same location (i.e. IAP), rather than having to go to the vendors websites, facebook, or other location for updates. 
- more informative posts from vendors
- more sales-related posts remaining in the proper area. 

Financial upside 
- more page views for vendors, resulting in more revenue and the ability to target a captive audience at a single location.
- hopefully more Birthday Bash prize donations, resulting from their good will due to the all the increased sales and revenue!    
- increased ability for Jeff to provide good Bash prizes for the membership as well, if the forums are well-used.  

Cons: we don't like change. 

I think the pros outweigh the cons!


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## PR_Princess (Sep 21, 2013)

maxwell_smart007 said:


> I thought I might put my thoughts in as well:
> 
> The advantages of vendor forums seem to be plentiful:
> -  Vendors will be encouraged to participate more, especially in their own forums, and provide more info and tips that they were rather limited
> ...



LOL Andrew, one thing I do know is that for the last seven weeks or so, change has definitely been on MY four letter word list! :redface:

But if Jeff wants to give this a try, he will definitely have my support. In the big picture, I think the goal here is to make the IAP a better place - so what is the harm in trying something new?


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## Smitty37 (Sep 21, 2013)

PR_Princess said:


> maxwell_smart007 said:
> 
> 
> > I thought I might put my thoughts in as well:
> ...


I think it was on the 4 letter word list for anyone trying to Navigate (?????) your website for a few days too.


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## edstreet (Sep 21, 2013)

jeff said:


> Regarding your statement about not being able to respond to questions.
> 
> What we tried to eliminate with the rules changes in 2011 was the "I sell that, it's $xx.xx and here is the link, and oh by the way it's better than so and so's." That was occurring in general discussions. The discussion would be going along and then a vendor would pop in with "oh you should try our so and so product."
> 
> One of the things I'd consider in the Vendor Forums is a spot for "where do I buy". I hesitate because that's currently allowed in the DTG&W forum. You can respond to any "wanted" post there with a direct link to your product.



This is still going on quite heavy, to prove it just dig up any thread dealing with TBC or laser cut.  More often than not these very subjects break out into heated vendor debates.  With the new group being added is not going to address these issues and likely increase vendor slant to one direction.

Having said that many forums that I am on has special areas dedicated to higher skilled specific people, i.e. the master craftsman, not limited to just vendors. So the question is why limit this to vendors only? Why not try to encourage and attract skill, knowledge and talent.



maxwell_smart007 said:


> I thought I might put my thoughts in as well:
> 
> The advantages of vendor forums seem to be plentiful:
> - moderation tasks will be reduced, as vendors will not be looking for opportunities to peddle wares in the wrong areas



Perhaps I missed the boat on this one but this is flawed logic regardless of how I approach this statement.  Actually the one viable approach where this would indeed be true; that is if more moderator task right now is spent dealing with vendors rather than regular users.  Perhaps some facts to back up this claim is in order? 




maxwell_smart007 said:


> For the regular member:
> ...
> - streamlined info source - ability to find where to look more quickly
> ...
> ...



Double speak no?  Exactly only different.





PR_Princess said:


> But if Jeff wants to give this a try, he will definitely have my support. In the big picture, I think the goal here is to make the IAP a better place - so what is the harm in trying something new?



From where I sit I see some serious hostility and aggression from the top all the way to the bottom on this topic.  I also fail to understand why there is so much anger in all these posts.  Change is inevitable, it is a fact of life. I see nothing wrong with trying something new but I am also an advocate of making things business friendly.


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## alphageek (Sep 21, 2013)

edstreet said:


> Perhaps I missed the boat on this one but this is flawed logic regardless of how I approach this statement.  Actually the one viable approach where this would indeed be true; that is if more moderator task right now is spent dealing with vendors rather than regular users.  Perhaps some facts to back up this claim is
> in order?


Considering that statement came from a moderator, that should be all the "fact" you need.  Its not that moderators spend more time specifically on vendors than other users.  But we DO spend more time on issues around commerce than other issues.   These new forums should allow vendors more freedom without increasing those issues (I hope!).   




edstreet said:


> From where I sit I see some serious hostility and aggression from the top all the way to the bottom on this topic.  I also fail to understand why there is so much anger in all these posts.  Change is inevitable, it is a fact of life. I see nothing wrong with trying something new but I am also an advocate of making things business friendly.



Things related to sales always seems to be high on the list of hostility.  Some want none on the site, some want complete freedom...  Others think Jeff is just trying to make a buck (often from those who have no idea the costs behind a site like IAP) by making people pay to sell.


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## edstreet (Sep 21, 2013)

alphageek said:


> Things related to sales always seems to be high on the list of hostility.  Some want none on the site, some want complete freedom...  Others think Jeff is just trying to make a buck (often from those who have no idea the costs behind a site like IAP) by making people pay to sell.




There in lies my point.  All this bickering, hostility and aggression is not healthy.  With both sides being heavy biased they have become blinded to the facts of what really matters is being lost; skill, talent, creativity.


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## OKLAHOMAN (Sep 21, 2013)

I've read every post and guy's why don't we just give this a chance to see if it will work, and stop all the negativity, if you have a comment on how to improve it fine but lets stop and see if we can police ourselves, have a forum where we vendors can answer questions, show new merchandise, let members know whats coming, and in general stop all the excuses that we all use to try to sell where we should not be trying to.


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## jeff (Sep 21, 2013)

OKLAHOMAN said:


> I've read every post and guy's why don't we just give this a chance to see if it will work, and stop all the negativity, if you have a comment on how to improve it fine but lets stop and see if we can police ourselves, have a forum where we vendors can answer questions, show new merchandise, let members know whats coming, and in general stop all the excuses that we all use to try to sell where we should not be trying to.



Hmmmm, interesting idea! :biggrin:

If it doesn't work we'll adjust or eliminate.


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## jeff (Sep 21, 2013)

edstreet said:


> ...snipped
> 
> Having said that many forums that I am on has special areas dedicated to higher skilled specific people, i.e. the master craftsman, not limited to just vendors. So the question is why limit this to vendors only? Why not try to encourage and attract skill, knowledge and talent.



I don't know what we're not doing not to encourage skill, knowledge, and talent. Clue me in.

I have seen the craftsman forums elsewhere, it's an interesting approach. I believe it does fracture the discussions somewhat, however. You might make the same argument about vendor forums, but it's supposed to add to our discussion, not move existing discussions to another area. 

I'd be interested in having an in-depth discussion about craftsmen forums, in another thread, please! :biggrin:


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## Smitty37 (Sep 21, 2013)

*Why I came here*

I was invited here by several members because I was a vendor and they thought I had products and prices other members would like.  I seriously doubt that I'm the only vendor invited here for that reason.

I am also a "general" member, asking questions, answering questions, offering opinions on a number of subjects and joining BS sessions.  If I stopped selling here I'd probably continue this activity --- Free.  Now I and other vendors pay for that and to be honest, I'm convinced that I provide my fair share of the funding needed for the site to remain free to you.

I have been a strong supporter of the birthday bash auctions, I have contributed prizes for various contests and I maintain a catalog and make frequent use of classifieds.  All of those things contribute to keeping this site free to the general membership -- and I'm certainly not the only vendor who does those things.

I also use the Trades and Deals to acquire pens for my collection...If anyone I worked a swap with feels that they got ripped off or even got the short end of the deal they never mentioned it to me.  I always strive to give a bit more value than I get.  We vendors also offer sales and other perks that only IAP members can take advantage of....

In short, I think the vendor's here pay at least their fair share of the freight


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## robutacion (Sep 22, 2013)

ed4copies said:


> Hey George!!
> 
> Since you quoted me, I feel I should explain further:  Yes, as a member I feel I have lost the right to "speak freely".  And, often I admit I resent that.
> 
> ...



Hi Ed,

I've read with interest all the posts since yesterday but, I have to comeback a little to allow me to respond to your reply.

Our interest on IAP are very different, only because we both sell stuff on IAP doesn't mean that we have the same principles and ways to see things however, we have been able to discuss various issues and accept each other's differences.

There is in fact a few things that you are missing about my presence here, I can accept that and doesn't affect me the slightest, the only point that I'm in total agreeance with you, is in regards to the freedom of speech that is becoming an issue based upon all the commercial interests people are putting on everything they do.

That brings me to the issue of level of honesty in society, as you very correctly pointed out, I was brought up to believe, honesty could grow side by side with modernization and evolution, I don't need to be reminded that, that reality has been totally overwhelmed and suppressed by peoples' greed, and this has nothing to do with the way it has to be, as so many claim but, a lot more to what spoiled people, things it should be, I may have to live with that but, I don't have to agree.

I'm also a very conservative person, I don't like changes, unless absolutely necessary, I'm a strong believer that, if ain't broken, leave it alone...!
With this said, I'm perfectly capable to recognise when "something" needs changing, my hesitation derives more from not being confident/sure if some changes are going to be for the better or for the worse.

This is a total contradiction to the other side of me that is totally fearless and unable to turn my back to a challenge, that has put my neck in deadly situations that most people wouldn't even dream off so, I am the same person that I'm used to make the changes and not be told what needs to be changed so, not being much of a "follower" I'm capable to adapt if I can see, understand, visualise, what the changes on offer are, in fact, if I embrace those changes as something to protect, I do so and most viciously...!

Because our interests on IAP are very different, is only obvious that we may tend to push, in slightly different directions however we can all coexist in almost perfect harmony.  This has been one of my big struggles, while I believe I'm coexisting, "others" are accusing me a sneaky/stealth advertising, when in most times, my mind couldn't be further from that, or was ever the intention however, I get the "cane" as I fell into the rulebook interpretation and not what I intended, provoking some very undesirable results and a sour taste in my mouth, that doesn't go away easy...!

Another issue that I need to clarify, and I will be discussing this in more detail when I get to reply to Jeff's post, very soon is the issue of financial contribution to IAP.  I have always made sure that I pay my way on IAP, this has been done in many ways but the one, I'm talking about is providing IAP with the funds I can afford.  I have made small donations most of which were the result of some add I run in here, even when was free, I have always shared my profits with IAP, they worked on a percentage and I have always put everything in writing so that everyone see that, I don't want things for nothing and that I believe, I should compensate those that allowed the sales to happen, I get very offended when someone accuses me of being using IAP for my own benefit, do you seriously think so...??? 

As for my possible, non-attractive items, I never accused IAP to be at fault when my adds sell nothing, how could I...??? I'm I going to put a gun to my head because I didn't even cover the cost of the add (rarely but did happen...!), did I stop to comeback the next day and do what I always do and there is, not selling stuff but, "talk to people"...??? no, I did not...!

In fact, I have a terrible "timing" in deciding when to put an add on IAP, after months of no adds, I decided to put a couple in and all of a certain, Jeff decided to introduce the new "vendors forum" I had paid for those adds days before the announcement was made so, one add was done and I decided to go ahead as planned, running the risk to be criticised about it.

So, my question is, will the vendors forum be a benefit to me, not as someone that puts a few adds here and there but as the "normal" IAP member I try to be but, offering my time, experience and services to all members, regardless if they have, are or even will buy anything from me...???

How am I suppose to separate my contribution in between members that bought stuff from me and those that have not, and possibly never will...???

Would you like me to give you 100 examples...???

The truth is, you have become a "big guy" I should also say that, I know, acknowledge and commend the sacrifices and effort that, you and Dawn have been putting into building that business, a very difficult task indeed however, I'm only the "little guy" that wants it that way, I'm not a business, I'm a pensioner with "some" disabilities and a willing to live, I use the wood as my therapy and something that I worked with all of my life and learn to appreciate, I do what I love and I love what I do, I pay my bills and help this small community I live in, the best way I can, I share what I have, and I'm happy to keep a little to help me through, I'm generous and modest, I see honesty as one of the guidelines that I don't want to lose in life, I make mistakes and I like real pizza, what part of this, people can't understand...???

Take care,
Cheers
George


----------



## robutacion (Sep 22, 2013)

jeff said:


> robutacion said:
> 
> 
> > jeff said:
> ...


----------



## edicehouse (Sep 22, 2013)

Most of the people here are here trying to find the way to do something with a buck.  Wether it is to make one, save one, or stretch one.  Truth be told most of us are trying to do all three at once.

I honestly thing some of the venders here are the best contributers on the site, but often have to hold back their knowledge for fear of getting thrown in IAP time out.

I have a suggestion though.  Can there be a section in the venders "I am looking for. . ."  Members can say they are looking for something, and the venders (that have a paid subscription) can post a link, and maybe "I have what you are looking for"


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## alphageek (Sep 22, 2013)

robutacion said:


> I don't know Jeff, I honestly don't, what would you like me to do...???
> 
> Best regards
> George



Holy cow George.    What I suggest you do is take a step back and take a couple of deep breaths.   I'm sure that Jeff was not trying to put anything ON you, he was just trying to answer your questions and inform anyone else reading the posts.

Look at it this way.   This new area is simple.   Its a place for a vendors to be able to speak, give information, announcements, etc.   They can do this without  having to worry about stepping over the line and without having to pay a fee for every post.   Separating this out into a different area is not a punishment for the vendors, its a way to give them freedom while giving members a way to close it of if they are part of the group that doesn't like being sold to in the open forums.

Like the rest of the web, IAP evolves.   If this doesn't work, it will change.

Dean


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## edstreet (Sep 22, 2013)

FYI I was dead serious about the DKIM post I made and as of yet it is still treated as the white elephant in the room.  It is also very relevant to this topic and does need to be addressed.


----------



## alphageek (Sep 22, 2013)

edstreet said:


> FYI I was dead serious about the DKIM post I made and as of yet it is still treated as the white elephant in the room.  It is also very relevant to this topic and does need to be addressed.



Ed, I don't think that its a white elephant in the room.   I see three things here:
1) I doubt that most people reading this thread have any idea what DKIM is
2) I don't see how why that specifically is relevant to this topic.
3) Thats really a function for Jeff to look at.   I see that you posted in Site help almost a year ago about SPF & DKIM.   Maybe Jeff missed that post, but you should point out your concerns to him, not in this thread.  I suggest you PM Jeff.


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## Smitty37 (Sep 22, 2013)

edstreet said:


> FYI I was dead serious about the DKIM post I made and as of yet it is still treated as the white elephant in the room. It is also very relevant to this topic and does need to be addressed.


 Ed, I think most people don't have a clue as to what DKIM even means - you should have written it out - much less how it works and what it is for.  I didn't until I went and looked it up.  At any rate I have to agree with Dean, that while you might well have a valid concern that perhaps should be addressed, this isn't the place to address it.


----------



## Smitty37 (Sep 22, 2013)

alphageek said:


> robutacion said:
> 
> 
> > I don't know Jeff, I honestly don't, what would you like me to do...???
> ...


:biggrin:Remind me to never ask George what time it is.  I'd probably get a book on the history of and how to build Big Ben.:biggrin:


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## Smitty37 (Sep 22, 2013)

*My Understanding*

For the life of me I can't see the cause for concern regarding Vendor Forums for the following reasons:

1.  Vendors are free to join or not join depending on how it fits their business model.

2.  General members can choose to not look at any and/or all vendor forums if they don't want to see them.

3.  All costs associated with the forum come out of the using vendors' pockets - the dues of the general membership are not going to be increased.

4.  If it doesn't appear to be working it will be discontinued or all of the vendors will drop it.

5.  If there is a small negative impact on the number of classified ads posted so what?  The classifieds will be used in a little different way and will (in my opinion) become more relavent to more of the general members.


----------



## edstreet (Sep 22, 2013)

Smitty37 said:


> edstreet said:
> 
> 
> > FYI I was dead serious about the DKIM post I made and as of yet it is still treated as the white elephant in the room. It is also very relevant to this topic and does need to be addressed.
> ...





alphageek said:


> edstreet said:
> 
> 
> > FYI I was dead serious about the DKIM post I made and as of yet it is still treated as the white elephant in the room.  It is also very relevant to this topic and does need to be addressed.
> ...




You are both somewhat right, most people do not have the slightest clue what it is or some of the nasty things I have seen from sites that was not using it, that were doing very similar things to the vendor section mind you.  The purpose does include this very topic of the vendor area and is very relevant to the topic at hand.

Also highly relevant to vendor forums is the post I made here http://www.penturners.org/forum/f18/dayacom-hacked-anonymous-112458/ and I have yet to even touch on PCI Security Standards

Look at it as just another reassurance given to the vendors for their participation, i.e. encouragement for them to come in.  After all if the goal is to attract vendors then it's past time to put many things into play.


----------



## Smitty37 (Sep 22, 2013)

edstreet said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > edstreet said:
> ...


Ed, my only point is that this thread in this forum is not a good place to discuss a very technical issue that most followers of the thread will not understand and will not be able to contribute to.  Such topics are best done off line among the people who know what they're talking about.


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## edstreet (Sep 22, 2013)

Smitty37 said:


> Ed, my only point is that this thread in this forum is not a good place to discuss a very technical issue that most followers of the thread will not understand and will not be able to contribute to.  Such topics are best done off line among the people who know what they're talking about.



Not all of it is 'technical' as you put it.  Some of it is procedural and other parts administrative.  Long story short, policy and procedures.  FYI this post is one small part of the policy layout framework.  You can call this entire thread more of a foundation core in that model.

Once the new section(s) are in place and if they are implemented correctly then IAP to will have better progress down the path of there it needs to be.  If you look at any company that does commerce they will have loads and loads of different things in place, like the ones I mentioned etc.  The ones that I did mention was just a few in a good size arena of options to go with.


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## maxwell_smart007 (Sep 22, 2013)

I think either a separate thread, or private discussion with Jeff, would be a more appropriate place for a discussion of DKIM - and I'll admit that I have absolutely no idea what DKIM is, other than what I gleaned from a google search  

I don't think it's applicable to vendor forums, however, and thus it would be best if we tried to stay on-topic here - we've gotten a bit off-course!


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## Gin N' Tonic (Sep 22, 2013)

Smitty37 said:


> For the life of me I can't see the cause for concern regarding Vendor Forums for the following reasons:
> 
> 1.  Vendors are free to join or not join depending on how it fits their business model.
> 
> ...





I have to agree here. I've read this post from beginning to end and I'm wondering if some of the smaller vendors missed that advantage that they could gain. If the larger vendors have their own space that they are paying for I think that the classifieds will open up to the smaller vendors. If you don't want to see the ads then there is a way to turn them off, the forum is very flexible.

I have been a member here under one name or another since the forum was 6 months old and I've seen things change for the better and I've seen them change for the worse but I can tell you from experience that Jeff strives to keep us all happy. Unfortunately that is nearly an impossible task and I think we should open ourselves to a new possibility and see if it is for the better or not. What I can also tell you from experience is that if is does not work then Jeff will end it and look for something better.

I look forward to seeing the outcome and I will, as always, support Jeff 110%.
This forum has been growing and thriving for the last 10 years, Jeff must be doing something right for that to happen. Please folks, lets give it a chance?


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## jeff (Sep 22, 2013)

maxwell_smart007 said:


> I think either a separate thread, or private discussion with Jeff, would be a more appropriate place for a discussion of DKIM - and I'll admit that I have absolutely no idea what DKIM is, other than what I gleaned from a google search
> 
> I don't think it's applicable to vendor forums, however, and thus it would be best if we tried to stay on-topic here - we've gotten a bit off-course!



Sender Policy Framework and DomainKeys Identified Mail are both tools that senders can use to validate their ownership and legitimate transmission of eMail. The only way that email comes into play at IAP is in notification emails sent from the server if someone has subscribed to email notification for a thread or forum, or has turned on email notification for PMs.

The benefit of both is more global (IAP-wise) in scope, and isn't directly related in any way I can think of to Vendor Forums. I've invited Ed to educate me on why it's relevant to this discussion, and we'll do that by PM.


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## MesquiteMan (Sep 22, 2013)

Wow, what is all the hubub about?

We are adding a feature that allows a vendor, IF THEY CHOOSE, to have a small dedicated area on IAP to pretty much do what they want.  They can advertise as much as they want and post things related to their business that is not permitted in other areas of IAP.  Their posts will show up in users feeds just like if they were in any of the other forums.  For the person that sells regularly, even if they don't consider themselves a vendor, this is just a big added feature and tool at their disposal.  No one is going to tell a vendor that he can only post in his/her forum.  The same rules will apply to the rest of the forum, it is just that now, a seller has a LOT more flexibility of what they can post and how often they can post.  Consider it almost like they have their own little IAP (within reason and guidelines, of course).  I fail to see any downside whatsoever.

For the non-selling member, it provides a place, if the seller chooses, for better communication.  It also provides a place where you can ask direct questions of the seller for all to see.  THE BIG THING IT ALSO DOES...if you have a bee in your bonnet for a specific seller, you can ignore that seller's forum and not constantly be griping to us (the mods and admin) about that seller.

NO SELLER IS GOING TO BE FORCED TO BUY A FORUM!!!  If you want one, it is a new benefit to being a part of this group that you will have the opportunity to participate in.  If you don't want to participate by getting your own vendor forum, THEN NOTHING WILL CHANGE!  Nothing is being taken away, plain and simple.


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## robutacion (Sep 22, 2013)

Smitty37 said:


> alphageek said:
> 
> 
> > robutacion said:
> ...



G'day Smithy,

Hahahahah mate, you are so right...!:wink::biggrin:

However you only asked for the time, you would be surprised of what I know about "timing machines" and how Big Ben was constructed...!

Is even possible that, by simply asking for the time, you and many others, would learn something new and endup enjoying reading the history...!:biggrin:

"Maybe", I am too detailed about things, I have been like that all my life and to be quite honest, it took me to places I didn't know existed, I may have also endup with some bruisers that left scars for life, tough...!

Some people like it like that, others not so much, I'm only human mate and I'm very far from being perfect nevertheless, I lived under this skin for so long that, I'm most accustomed to...! :wink::biggrin:

Oh and by the way, could I please use this opportunity to left everyone know that, the last 2 posts I made on this thread, were supposed to endup with these 2 symbols :wink::biggrin:, I forgot them when it counted, my apologies for that...!

Cheers
George


----------



## robutacion (Sep 22, 2013)

alphageek said:


> robutacion said:
> 
> 
> > I don't know Jeff, I honestly don't, what would you like me to do...???
> ...



Dean,

Sure, I understand what you are saying however, I should point out that, I was asked a series of "direct" questions by Jeff, it would be rude of me not answering to those questions, directly to Jeff.

Everyone else reading the post(s) will make their own judgment, regardless so, I'm OK with that...!

Do any of my questions also apply to others, I believe it does and even if not, is within my right to ask questions and be able to evaluate what is on offer, as it is not compulsory...!

Maybe would be easier if it was, we may never know however, I would be a happy man and a happy IAP member, if I can be me and not be looking over my shoulders, all of the time.  Being me, is all my doing and responsibility, not better, not worse, maybe slightly different nevertheless, I have to coexist with others and I strive all the time to find the places where I can belong, is not easy but I try.

None of you can probably comprehend how important would be for me to coexist on IAP without the problems, I have complied to any requests made, to the best of my ability however, it seems that, still some distance away from what Jeff and some of you (mods), intended.

I did not understand what Jeff was offering when he announced it, there has been some interesting explanations to what is suppose to be, and I'm starting to understand "some" of its positives/attributes, call me a slow learner and if that makes you happy, call me stupid, I'm however to have a full understanding to what is all about and what doors are left half closed to introduce other restrictive conditions at later date.  

I'm also concern at the fees structure and what it will be in the near future, again call me "drama queen" if you wish but, I have the right to be cautious and concerned about certain type of surprises, right...???

I really would like that Jeff would be a little more "transparent" about the fees structure that he envisages for this new addition to IAP so, it would be great if he could gives us an idea of what the fees are going to be after the 1th January 2014 and what would be the increase rates that he envisage  a couple of years down the track.

The thing is, if am getting a "service", I'm most willing to pay my way as always however, I have limits...!

It is of my utmost interest that, IAP improves and adapts, is also of my utmost interest that IAP continues to be a place where I can be and bring many others to enjoy and participate, and not making me feel guilt of making the wrong decision.

I would like also to see IAP as a place where people doesn't have to leave due to unnecessary political and ridiculous arguments however, I welcome the boot up the arse, on the idiots...!

Is this too much to ask...???:wink::biggrin:

Cheers
George


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## Smitty37 (Sep 23, 2013)

robutacion said:


> alphageek said:
> 
> 
> > robutacion said:
> ...


George, if I can interject a little thought here.  I learned of the Vendor Forum and the initial price.  I looked at what was being offered and decided that at the initial price it was worth it for me to give it a try because it will probably reduce my use of classified ads by that much. 

If the price goes too high after January 1st, I can always drop it.  In the mean time we (vendors and general members) will all get three months to look at it and see how it works.  

My thought right now is that it will make some things better (perhaps at a cost) but probably won't make anything worse.  But...if I am wrong the idea will fail and we'll be back to what we have now.  It seems like trying it is a no-risk situation for both general members and vendors.


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## LL Woodworks (Sep 23, 2013)

robutacion said:


> jeff said:
> 
> 
> > robutacion said:
> ...


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## kovalcik (Sep 23, 2013)

After reading all the different opinions I thought I would chime in as a general member.  I like the idea of the vendor forum.  For me the biggest benefit will be seeing other members Q&A with the vendors.  Now, vendor problems are mostly discussed via PM and the rest of the audience does not see the resolution of the problem.  Sometimes the original poster will add the solution to the thread, but even then the rest of the audience is lacking the detail that led to the solution.  I also think since the sellers participating in the vendor forums would be the more frequent classified posters, it will make the other classified posts more visible.

I also wanted to add a small piece of market research for the vendors.  Classified ads, Vendor catalogs, and now vendor forums typically do not drive me to your stores.  What really causes me to check out your website is if I am following a thread and I see you contibute in a helpful way. That is what makes me click on the link in your signature just to see what you are about.  So my suggestion to the vendors is even if you have a vendor forum, keep up with your general posting, and keep that signature link up to date.


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## robutacion (Sep 23, 2013)

LL Woodworks said:


> robutacion said:
> 
> 
> > jeff said:
> ...


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## robutacion (Sep 23, 2013)

kovalcik said:


> After reading all the different opinions I thought I would chime in as a general member.  I like the idea of the vendor forum.  For me the biggest benefit will be seeing other members Q&A with the vendors.  Now, vendor problems are mostly discussed via PM and the rest of the audience does not see the resolution of the problem.  Sometimes the original poster will add the solution to the thread, but even then the rest of the audience is lacking the detail that led to the solution.  I also think since the sellers participating in the vendor forums would be the more frequent classified posters, it will make the other classified posts more visible.
> 
> I also wanted to add a small piece of market research for the vendors.  Classified ads, Vendor catalogs, and now vendor forums typically do not drive me to your stores.  What really causes me to check out your website is if I am following a thread and I see you contibute in a helpful way. That is what makes me click on the link in your signature just to see what you are about.  So my suggestion to the vendors is even if you have a vendor forum, keep up with your general posting, and keep that signature link up to date.



I agree with you, particularly to the second part of your post, that line of thought was what made me to have my eBay store and website addresses on my signature, I tend to follow the same principle when I'm looking for something however, I was requested to removed all that information from my signature due to conflict of interest with the advertising rules on IAP, and while I did not hesitate in have all that information removed, to keep the peace, I felt that was unnecessary so, the new vendors forum may be able to correct that, something that I would like to see back for the exact reason you pointed out. Thank you...!

Cheers
George


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## robutacion (Sep 23, 2013)

> George, if I can interject a little thought here.  I learned of the Vendor Forum and the initial price.  I looked at what was being offered and decided that at the initial price it was worth it for me to give it a try because it will probably reduce my use of classified ads by that much.
> 
> If the price goes too high after January 1st, I can always drop it.  In the mean time we (vendors and general members) will all get three months to look at it and see how it works.
> 
> My thought right now is that it will make some things better (perhaps at a cost) but probably won't make anything worse.  But...if I am wrong the idea will fail and we'll be back to what we have now.  It seems like trying it is a no-risk situation for both general members and vendors.



Hi Smithy,

Sure mate, interject as much as you like, this is a free world...!:wink:

Yes, is very possible that you are correct and that the new vendors forum, turns out to be a success, the more time I have to think about it and read how other people interpret it, does help considerably nevertheless, I have my reserves or should I say, I'm approaching it with some caution so that I don't get too disappointed if it all goes pear shape.

As I mention before, I need something that will work, sooner rather than later, Jeff's decision has been already made so, I hope he is right...!:wink::biggrin:

Cheers
George


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## jeff (Sep 23, 2013)

robutacion said:


> kovalcik said:
> 
> 
> > After reading all the different opinions I thought I would chime in as a general member.  I like the idea of the vendor forum.  For me the biggest benefit will be seeing other members Q&A with the vendors.  Now, vendor problems are mostly discussed via PM and the rest of the audience does not see the resolution of the problem.  Sometimes the original poster will add the solution to the thread, but even then the rest of the audience is lacking the detail that led to the solution.  I also think since the sellers participating in the vendor forums would be the more frequent classified posters, it will make the other classified posts more visible.
> ...



George - I'm not going to air this out any more in this thread, but I have to correct something.

We didn't ask you to remove anything from your signature. We merely told you that when you say you're not selling anything, and there is a link to an ebay store in your signature, that we had to ask you to stop showing product outside the classifieds unless you were clearly making an educational post.

The issue was that you made a post which said something like "I made this stuff today" which isn't allowed if you're also selling the stuff. You said you were not selling, but the links in your sig said otherwise. 

I am perfectly fine with you showing us how you make things, but if you're selling, and it's obvious that you are selling by the links in you sig, then we need more than "here is what I made today"  This applies across the board.

The only thing we are trying to do is avoid "sneaky marketing". I KNOW YOU ARE NOT DOING THAT, but in order to enforce rules clearly across the board, we have to (WE TRY TO) treat everyone the same. I am sure you agree with that approach.

I love your long posts showing all of the interesting things you do. As long as there is something substantial in your posts beyond "here's what I made today", it'll probably be just fine, in a vendor forum or anywhere else. 

*Our vendors are one of our most valuable resources.* We ALL learn from reading how you do things. I agree that we have muzzled our vendors too much, and the vendor forum idea is my attempt to bring back some of the great conversation from vendors while keeping those who don't want to see it able to avoid it.

My intentions are good, but as they say, the road to hell is paved with good intentions, so we'll just have to wait and see how this shapes up.


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## robutacion (Sep 23, 2013)

> George - I'm not going to air this out any more in this thread, but I have to correct something.
> 
> We didn't ask you to remove anything from your signature. We merely told you that when you say you're not selling anything, and there is a link to an ebay store in your signature, that we had to ask you to stop showing product outside the classifieds unless you were clearly making an educational post.
> 
> ...



Hi Jeff,

Thank you for your reply...!

Sure, no point in playing the "ping-pong" ball game on this issue however and before I close it and move on, I see that you are not that different than me on this one, we both seem to have kept a sour taste in the back of our throats with this issue and while I have no regrets to what I've done or said, allow me to very quickly (if I could ever do that...!:biggrin tell you the rest of this story.

I normally don't list on my eBay store or offer for sale here on IAP any of my Resifills that I just made, I like to let them rest for a few weeks, the PR alone takes 14 days to fully cure, we have the smell and all other details that are better to let settle for a while.

For whatever the reason, and I believe may have been because I was quite pleased with the results of this first attempt at making Resifills like that, I endup listing them the evening after I finished them.  About a week or so later and not have had any sales on them, I decided that was time to show everyone here, what I have done and then I was going to explain/show how I done them but the thread was deleted before I had the chance.

I was very upset with the way your mod dealt and communicated with me with the news of his decision, I didn't particularly liked is tone, as was obvious, he had a problem with me and my way of doing things anyway, it took me awhile to understand why the thread was so much of a problem, and after some discussions with you, you suggested the removing of my info on the signature, to make the thread within rules and so, I obeyed and requested the thread to be reinstated so that I could continue the work I had planned for it.

Now, the problem was that, I did forget that they were listed on my eBay store and I did not intended to make any sort of "classified" out of it nor I offer any for sale.  It happens that, in my way to communicate with the forum members, I thought that I was just showing another one of my creations and demonstrated that, cork material can be used for these type of pen blanks construction.

Now the point is, was a honest mistake and not an attempt to make sneaky advertisement, as "some" may believe, I understand that, you understood what happened and that wasn't intentional, everything went back to normal and I provided some more information on that particular thread however, I got the sense that, what makes me be in "hot water" all the time on IAP, had to be resolved, that would also expand/affect many other IAP members that may be in a similar situation so, I have been waiting and waiting for some news of changes, and in the meantime I decided not to show any of my new stuff, as I honestly didn't know where to put it without causing another big issue, as I didn't wanted to make it any worse...!

I expect nothing more than be treated like any other member in these issues, I may cause a few slightly different "situations" for you and your mods to deal with, only because of the way I do things however, my intentions are good/modest...!

I agree with you, when you say that you need to stop "sneaky/stealth advertising" the methods some people use to achieve it is just mesmerizing, to say the least, the bigger problem I have is that, unless you know me and know how I do things, I could very easily be taken by one of those smart arses, I'm not blind, I see it almost everyday so, I couldn't agree more that, you have to come up with a solutions that works for "everyone" and this is where the problem lies, that is almost an impossible task so, we have to concentrate on what the majority of members that require/want/need/wish/would like to sell some stuff on IAP, can do so, in the most "transparent" way possible.

I appreciate your words on my "long posts" not everyone's cup of tea I understand but, I'm glad you see the educative and entertaining aspect of them, thank you...!

I'm also very pleased that you have the decency to publicly admit that* "we have muzzled our vendors too much"* that gives me a pleasant "vibe" that, you do care for the need of your forum members, that only increases the respect I have for you, thank you.

I also know that, you have a good right hand man, Curtis Seebeck, to help you out with these major issues so, my appreciation to him, also...!:wink:

And to wrap this out, is only one more question that I have, what do "vendor candidates" have to do to subscribe/register to the new Vendors Forum...???

Thank you,:wink::biggrin:

Cheers
George


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## BangleGuy (Sep 23, 2013)

maxwell_smart007 said:


> I thought I might put my thoughts in as well:
> 
> The advantages of vendor forums seem to be plentiful:
> -  Vendors will be encouraged to participate more, especially in their own forums, and provide more info and tips that they were rather limited



I really like this idea for my business as most of what I sell is new hardware and methods for the small-item woodturner.  Hopefully non-penturning forums will be available 

Thanks IAP for hosting a great place for turners!


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## jeff (Sep 30, 2013)

Implementation of Vendor Forums will be delayed by a day (to Oct 2). 

Circumstances beyond my control have distracted me from completing the final setup and tweaking. 

My apologies.


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## Dan Hintz (Sep 30, 2013)

jeff said:


> Implementation of Vendor Forums will be delayed by a day (to Oct 2).


Well, that's just the final straw, Jeff.... I quit!








:tongue:


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## Smitty37 (Sep 30, 2013)

jeff said:


> Implementation of Vendor Forums will be delayed by a day (to Oct 2).
> 
> Circumstances beyond my control have distracted me from completing the final setup and tweaking.
> 
> My apologies.


 Delay - Delay are you sure you aren't some elected official????:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:


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## LouF (Sep 30, 2013)

I am new here but I think it is a very good move, some of the other forums I frequent have it set up that way and it works great.


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## edicehouse (Oct 2, 2013)

jeff said:


> Implementation of Vendor Forums will be delayed by a day (to Oct 2).
> 
> Circumstances beyond my control have distracted me from completing the final setup and tweaking.
> 
> My apologies.


 
HUMP DAY!!!!!!!


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## Smitty37 (Oct 2, 2013)

edicehouse said:


> jeff said:
> 
> 
> > Implementation of Vendor Forums will be delayed by a day (to Oct 2).
> ...


Probably a work day for Jeff.  He must not have been in the non-essential 800000


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## LouF (Oct 2, 2013)

edicehouse said:


> jeff said:
> 
> 
> > Implementation of Vendor Forums will be delayed by a day (to Oct 2).
> ...



Why does a map popup now when clicking your link before it would show your friend and his kids?


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## edicehouse (Oct 2, 2013)

In my signature?  That link was not there, it was on a thread you are thinking of.


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## jeff (Oct 2, 2013)

Vendor Forums will appear either late tonight or early Thursday morning. 

Sorry for the delays.


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## ed4copies (Oct 2, 2013)

Take your time, Jeff!!!

We'll be here when they are ready!!
Ed


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## edicehouse (Oct 2, 2013)

ed4copies said:


> Take your time, Jeff!!!
> 
> We'll be here when they are ready!!
> Ed



If he doesn't we will type angrily (is that even a word) IN ALL CAPS!!!!!!

LOL  :laugh:


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## ed4copies (Oct 2, 2013)

edicehouse said:


> ed4copies said:
> 
> 
> > Take your time, Jeff!!!
> ...




Not me!!!


I don't like to be too 













*visible*
:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:​


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## The Penguin (Oct 2, 2013)

delay delay delay

are you sure you're not working on Obamacare?

:biggrin:


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## LouF (Oct 2, 2013)

edicehouse said:


> In my signature?  That link was not there, it was on a thread you are thinking of.



Oh ok my mistake..


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## edicehouse (Oct 2, 2013)

LouF said:


> edicehouse said:
> 
> 
> > In my signature?  That link was not there, it was on a thread you are thinking of.
> ...



No problem Lou, I didn't want the links going the wrong place.


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## robutacion (Oct 2, 2013)

Whats a few days delay, in the scheme of things, really...???:wink: 

Even to implement a new forum, there are the oopss, the, damn I didn't think of that, and then all the legal stuff that is always a nightmare to determine if applicable or not, is like making a pen, and things start to go wrong, a 30 minute job, can all of a certain become a days' job and, who haven't been caught in the "net"...???

Take your time Jeff and do it right, shortcuts wain't going to be much of a help/solution, even if the whole thing, will start as an experimental scheme, if I understood your introduction...!

I suppose, there is some excitement, some expectations and some concerns, about this new forum's effectiveness, this I would consider normal, reasonable and expected so, let give Jeff the "real" time he requires to get it done right...!

Cheers
George


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## Smitty37 (Oct 2, 2013)

robutacion said:


> Whats a few days delay, in the scheme of things, really...???:wink:
> 
> Even to implement a new forum, there are the oopss, the, damn I didn't think of that, and then all the legal stuff that is always a nightmare to determine if applicable or not, is like making a pen, and things start to go wrong, a 30 minute job, can all of a certain become a days' job and, who haven't been caught in the "net"...???
> 
> ...


Careful George - at our age a couple of days might be too late.:biggrin::biggrin:


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## robutacion (Oct 2, 2013)

Smitty37 said:


> robutacion said:
> 
> 
> > Whats a few days delay, in the scheme of things, really...???:wink:
> ...



Yes but, you my friend have a lot more miles on your tires and clock, I have had people at you very respectful age, to tell me that, "I'm only a child".

I believe there is about 20 years difference in our ages and believe it or not, I don't feel a day older than 90...!  At 55, I lived quite a lot and quite fast, I started working at the tender age of 8 (eight) years of age, I was forced to grow fast and furious.

I have little chances predicted to reach your great age however, I always had a great respect and appreciation for older people, and the things I manage to learn from so many of them.  I was never suppose to have survived from an accident I had, when I was only 19 years of age, reaching 55 has been a big job/effort all by itself so, a couple of days, doesn't mean much to me, anymore...!

So, I day or two, may represent different things to both of us, huh...???

One day at the time, will do me...!:biggrin:

PS: Hahahaha Smithy, I just thought of your thread of yesterday and, what another great example of the issue you raised...!

Does my post have anything to do with the OP...??? absolutely nothing...!

Have I hijacked  or disrupted the thread...??? absolutely not...!

So, what did happen..???

Your response need some correction and as a result, it took me into another road/direction to achieve the intended result however, it was all part of Jeff's delay announcement, all most harmless and have not affected what the thread is about, the only thing it did was, make it a little longer to read, that some people like and some dislike, such as life...!:wink::biggrin:

Cheers
George


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## Smitty37 (Oct 2, 2013)

robutacion said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > robutacion said:
> ...


 Sorry George, I must have you confused with another down under member  who is a tad older than I am.

*If it's any consolation when I was 55 I would have taken bets that I'd never see the age I'm at now, so ya never can tell.*


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## robutacion (Oct 3, 2013)

Smitty37 said:


> robutacion said:
> 
> 
> > Smitty37 said:
> ...



No harm done...!

Cheers
George


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