# ethical question



## Rifleman1776 (Sep 17, 2007)

Living in a retirement community, and being retired, we get a lot of 'invitations' to attend seminars on how to invest our money  for retirement security. These 'invitations' always include the inducement of a free dinner, often at a very fine restaurant. We will get about three of these per week. So far, we haven't attended any of these. But, the prospect of eating out at a nice restaurant, free, two or three times a week is very tempting. The question: Even though we would have no plans to do any investing, would it be ethical to still accept the 'invitation' and attend?


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## ctwxlvr (Sep 17, 2007)

Yes, by all means attend, the dinner is your payment to listen to their advertisements, you get these a lot in areas that are trying to develop a community in a resort area ... free tv, dinner, two night stay etc.


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## ctwxlvr (Sep 17, 2007)

ps just don't get caught up in their hype it is designed to convince you to invest in their plan with lots of hidden cost and fees=-)


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## ed4copies (Sep 17, 2007)

I have been to a couple of these, Frank.

As a life-long salesman, I consider it an opportunity to see the latest in "Strong=arm" closing.  

Be careful, THEY ARE GOOD!!! (No, I have NOT ever purchased anything - but I HAVE been impressed!!)


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## wpenm (Sep 17, 2007)

[] Now that is a good question. The answers should be interesting. I agree that it would be tempting to accept their inventations and I might if their product sounded remotely interesting. I wounder if their sales speal comes before, during or after dinner and if they are high pressure sale people.[]

Frank, I was in your area this weekend. My aunt passed away and we took my mother to Yellville for the funeral. It was a sad time but we still enjoyed visiting family and the weather was perfect.


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## its_virgil (Sep 17, 2007)

....and very high pressure. My wife and I had the same thoughts you have but after two or three we realized we were wasting lots of precious time...the meal and then the time afterwards to listen to their spill and tell them what a good deal it is and we are not interested the then get hit with round two and three and ... They don't give up easily....other salesmen are pushovers compared to these guys ... at least the ones we got free meals from.
Do a good turn daily!
Don



> _Originally posted by ed4copies_
> <br />I have been to a couple of these, Frank.
> 
> As a life-long salesman, I consider it an opportunity to see the latest in "Strong=arm" closing.
> ...


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## ed4copies (Sep 17, 2007)

Oh, and don't give them anything to "hold".  They may ask for your drivers license so they can check your "eligibility" (this means your credit rating).

Carry a copy of your license - give that to them, so you can leave at any time.  

They are not holding onto something you NEED.


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## Nolan (Sep 17, 2007)

No for me, I would not go just to eat knowing I would be interested in their product. Crosses MY personal ethics boundry.


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## bananajeep (Sep 17, 2007)

This would be the same idea for the timeshare sales pitches.  My wife and I were invited to a high priced resort in Carmel CA next weekend.  We going to do it and listen to their 90 minute sales pitch, but we don't have the cash for something like this right now.  I've been to a few of these over the years.  I actually bought a Timeshare at my first one I went to.  It turned out not to be what we wanted for vacationsand we sold it, but I'd like to see what the resorts are like.  Maybe our idea of a vaction will change as we get older.  Right now we travel all over and found the timeshare option limited us too much.  These people know there are some people that will not buy.  Just my two cents.

Mike


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## cigarman (Sep 17, 2007)

Frank, see my tag line.  You pay for this lunch with your time and by being there.


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## penhead (Sep 17, 2007)

Hmmm, they know your name.
With a little research they have a good idea which area you live in. 
They also know what it costs to live there.
etc...etc...

Add in the old (new?) saying:
You can fool some of the people some of the time...
and if it wasn't worth it, they wouldn't be doing it.


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## Rifleman1776 (Sep 17, 2007)

> _Originally posted by wpenm_
> <br />[] Now that is a good question. The answers should be interesting. I agree that it would be tempting to accept their inventations and I might if their product sounded remotely interesting. I wounder if their sales speal comes before, during or after dinner and if they are high pressure sale people.[]
> 
> Frank, I was in your area this weekend. My aunt passed away and we took my mother to Yellville for the funeral. It was a sad time but we still enjoyed visiting family and the weather was perfect.



Sorry about your aunt. But, as you said, weather was perfect for a good-bye.
Who is your family here? Good chance I know them.
We were in Kansas City last month and had about four hours to kill before our event. Could have pestered you. []


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## Rifleman1776 (Sep 17, 2007)

Actually, over the years, we have been to a couple of these. The presentations are professional and, of course, always positive on the market. No sales pressure is attempted. They do load you down with a bag full of goodies and literature in the hopes that you will call for an appointment. It is not an unpleasant experience. Nothing like the time share thing. We got suckered into one of those once. Never again. And, I once worked for a company that did that, crooks, scoundrels, liars, druggies and worse. The investment types are different.


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## Gary Max (Sep 17, 2007)

I would also have to pass---heck I like home cooked meals anyway---plus they would want you to wear shoes????????


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## Texatdurango (Sep 17, 2007)

Frank,
I have a slightly different take on this.  I assume investment companies check retirement roles of companies because after retiring, I started receiving several offers a month as well.

I have used the same financial planner for several years which I am pleased with but I have no qualms whatsoever over attending these seminars with meals, especially if at a really nice steak house, which they usually are.  In my experiences, the meals are usually quite good and my ears have never been hurt by listening to what others have to say.  Who knows, I might learn something, if for no other reason, to quiz my planner about.

That said, I do have a look at the firm putting on the seminar and with being in the markets for over 30 years can usually separate the reputable firms from the â€œless than honorable, Get rich in 30 daysâ€ type of outfits.  I have never been accosted by high pressure salesmen, probably because I donâ€™t attend the latter.

Bon apatite![]


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## kent4Him (Sep 17, 2007)

I'm glad I'm not old enough to have to worry about this.  Clark Howard (radio consumer advocate) said that they are not worth going to unless you can say no and leave when you want to.

We did the time share thing once and I hope I never have to do that again.  After we said no the first time, they take you to another room where we had to say no to a different offer, and then to a third room.  We own a timeshare, but not through any of these offers.  BTW, anyone interested in a Kissemee time share the week before Memorial Day?  When you have small kids, they are not that useful.


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## GaryMGg (Sep 17, 2007)

> _Originally posted by kent4Him_
> ... BTW, anyone interested in a Kissemee time share the week before Memorial Day?  When you have small kids, they are not that useful.


My wife and I did the Timeshare sales weekends to see what kind of places were out there. After the second one we did, we said we wouldn't go to another.
Then we went to a third offer to The Resort on Cocoa Beach. After visitng, we bought it.
Our girls were Junior HS age at the time. It's been great. Ocean front vacationing and roughly a 30 minute drive from Dizzy-World.
We probably won't use it this year for ourselves.
Anyone want a great deal at the Resort on Cocoa Beach the week of Thanksgiving, let me know.  []


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## RPM (Sep 17, 2007)

Go for it.  If you needed to go in thinking you wanted to buy their product, they wouldn't need to lure you in with a free meal.  The whole idea for them is to convince you that you really do want it.  Right now you don't want it.  After you listen to their pitch you still don't want it, fine, you did your part and they had their chance.
Richard


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## Ligget (Sep 17, 2007)

Frank go for it, before you leave try to sell them a couple of pens!


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## DCBluesman (Sep 17, 2007)

I have a problem with going after a free meal if I have already made up my mind that I have no interest in their product or service.  The meal is an inducement to come hear their pitch with an open mind.  Going with a closed mind is deceptive at best.


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## Dario (Sep 17, 2007)

As said...if I am sure I won't buy their service/product to begin with, I won't go.  

But if you are curious (even just a bit), then go, I don't think there is anything wrong with that.  As mentioned, be careful though...you might end up biting more than you can chew [][}]


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## its_virgil (Sep 17, 2007)

The ones I've attended were hosted by high pressure salesmen who definitely came with a closed mind to me saying "no, but thanks anyway". I don't see the diffrence and I'm not trying to start an arguent...just stating the facts as I've seen them. As I said earlier, it only took two or three to realize I didn't want to attend any more of these free meals.
Do a good turn daily!
Don


> _Originally posted by DCBluesman_
> <br /> Going with a closed mind is deceptive at best.


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## bjackman (Sep 17, 2007)

The money spent by them to pay for the dinner is put out there knowing full well that statistically, only a certain percentage of the attendees will actually buy. They don't only plan to buy dinner for those who will that night or even eventually become their customers. In any business/industry, (penturning as well as financial planning services), spending money on marketing is always something of a gamble with no guaranteed return. They made the offer to you and you have no obligation to them other than to attend and listen. My $.04 ( .02 for the opinion and  added in .02 for my marketing fee. [}] )


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## reed43 (Sep 17, 2007)

Personally I do not need the free meal bad enough to listen to there spill.Just my opinion.


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## Ron in Drums PA (Sep 17, 2007)

Here is my take...

You know for a fact that you are not going to buy anything, so if you decide to go, you would be a freeloader. Now, I'm not sure if being a freeloader is unethical, it probably is, but it sure feels like something a person with no values would do.


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## its_virgil (Sep 17, 2007)

Ouch! Thanks! 
Do a good turn daily!
Freddy "the freeloader"


> _Originally posted by Ron in Drums PA_
> <br />Here is my take...
> 
> You know for a fact that you are not going to buy anything, so if you decide to go, you would be a freeloader. Now, I'm not sure if being a freeloader is unethical, it probably is, but it sure feels like something a person with no values would do.


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## Ron in Drums PA (Sep 17, 2007)

> _Originally posted by its_virgil_
> <br />
> Freddy "the freeloader"



So is that Red Skelton or Miles Davis?
Remember Clem Kadiddlehopper?


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## its_virgil (Sep 17, 2007)

Yep! I'm old enough to remember all of Red Skelton's characters and Miles Davis' recording of Freddy the Freeloader can be heard here: http://www.songtrellis.com/sounds/viewer$599?mute

Good night and may God Bless (Red's sign-off for the younger group)
do a good turn daily!
Don



> _Originally posted by Ron in Drums PA_
> <br />
> 
> 
> ...


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## Randy_ (Sep 17, 2007)

> _Originally posted by its_virgil_
> <br />.....Red Skelton.....



Probably one of the most under appreciated comedians of all time....and a real gentleman on top of it!! [^]


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## GBusardo (Sep 18, 2007)

Frank,  I am wondering if ANY people go to those things thinking they are going to give up their money. I would think the people go to either get a free meal, learn something or both. I don't see as an ethical question at all, I see it as "Is this worth my time and the possiblity of having a salesman up my butt for who knows how long". If you have to give up  some personal info to get in,  I would concider that payment enough for the meal. Remember, there is no such thing as a free lunch. You are paying for this with your time and perhaps some personal information.


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## GBusardo (Sep 18, 2007)

> _Originally posted by ligget_
> <br />Frank go for it, before you leave try to sell them a couple of pens!



By all means!!!   Turn the tables on em!!  []


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## alamocdc (Sep 18, 2007)

> _Originally posted by Randy__
> <br />
> 
> 
> ...



Agreed! One of my all time favorites. I even bought some Red Skelton DVDs a year or so ago. He still makes me laugh.


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## kent4Him (Sep 18, 2007)

> _Originally posted by GaryMGg_
> <br />
> 
> 
> ...



There's the difference.  You live 30 minutes from your's.  My drive is 17 hours, and the kids have school that week.


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## GaryMGg (Sep 18, 2007)

> _Originally posted by kent4Him_
> There's the difference.  You live 30 minutes from your's.  My drive is 17 hours, and the kids have school that week.


[]
I wasn't clear. I live 2-1/2 to 3 hrs. from Cocoa.
You couldn't pay me enough to live in or around Orlando.
The reference to a 30 minute drive is its proximity to Dizzy; the benefit is you can vacation at Cocoa Beach and still be within' 30 minutes to Orlando & MM. It's great for families with kids who don't want to stay in mouseland while they're doing Dizzy World.
It's also good for owners like me on those occassions when we want to resell our week.
This year, I really just want to stay at home and vacation by making sawdust all week long. [] []


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## palmermethod (Sep 18, 2007)

What I have done is tell the sales guy, up front, that I have NO available cash, that it's tied up in limited partnerships or something and am not interested in buying anything. Am I still invited?

They have all replied "sure, bring the spouse" because they believe that their superior arm twisting skills can overcome your objections.

In my (our) case we actually never had any extra money and just tell them at the dinner. It's hard to argue around that. Blood from a turnip...

These people realize that only a small percentage of responses will be fruitful. Believe me, the free dinner you get will be made up many times over by their latest "customer". 

If you can't resist a hard sell then don't go. Otherwise, enjoy the evening or weekend.


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