# [B] What makes a pen valuable? [/B]



## Krudwig (Dec 31, 2013)

Ok, here is a philosophy question that has nothing to do with reality. What makes a pen valuable? Is it the pen kit, the blank, the turn, the finish? What separates a $20 dollar pen from a $300 dollar pen. If you were an appraiser of pens how would you set a value say for insurance purposes? I know you have some thoughts on the subject. Also is there a certain person who's name alone raises the value of their pens?


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## edstreet (Jan 1, 2014)

material.


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## sbell111 (Jan 1, 2014)

I'm not seeing the difference between a pen, a watch, a car, a piano, or any other item of personal property.  How much would it cost to replace?  That's the value.


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## SteveG (Jan 1, 2014)

Comparables in the market you are in based on prior/current sales which are documented. This would be accurate and helpful to arrive at an appraisal value.


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## maxwell_smart007 (Jan 1, 2014)

As always, it comes down to *Perception*!

If you can convince someone it's valuable, then it is....just like diamonds -  a fairly common, shiny rock that people shell out large amounts of income for...

A finely crafted twenty dollar pen with a twenty dollar prize tag is worth twenty dollars.   The same pen, with convinging salemanship is worth 300.


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## beck3906 (Jan 1, 2014)

sbell111 said:


> I'm not seeing the difference between a pen, a watch, a car, a piano, or any other item of personal property.  How much would it cost to replace?  That's the value.



Some items are irreplaceable, such as a Van Gogh painting.  In many cases, custom pens are the same way.  Maybe my pens will be worth millions after I'm gone.  :biggrin:


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## Cmiles1985 (Jan 1, 2014)

beck3906 said:


> sbell111 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not seeing the difference between a pen, a watch, a car, a piano, or any other item of personal property.  How much would it cost to replace?  That's the value.
> ...



Much the same as a Stradivarius in the violin world.


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## sbell111 (Jan 1, 2014)

beck3906 said:


> sbell111 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not seeing the difference between a pen, a watch, a car, a piano, or any other item of personal property.  How much would it cost to replace?  That's the value.
> ...



Can't the same be said about every item on my list?


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## OKLAHOMAN (Jan 1, 2014)

Could not have said it better.....wait I have said that:biggrin:




maxwell_smart007 said:


> As always, it comes down to *Perception*!
> 
> If you can convince someone it's valuable, then it is....just like diamonds -  a fairly common, shiny rock that people shell out large amounts of income for...
> 
> A finely crafted twenty dollar pen with a twenty dollar prize tag is worth twenty dollars.   The same pen, with convinging salemanship is worth 300.


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## sbell111 (Jan 1, 2014)

:biggrin:





OKLAHOMAN said:


> Could not have said it better.....wait I have said that:biggrin:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I remember you making the convinging salesmanship argument.


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## OKLAHOMAN (Jan 1, 2014)

sbell111 said:


> :biggrin:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



LOL, I just saw it, you better be a  super great sales man to convinge some one to buy but just a pretty good one to convince them to buy:biggrin:
Steve remember up in his part of Canada it's so cold that the G and C on his key board are stuck together.


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## avbill (Jan 1, 2014)

*What is in the value of Perception!*

I definitely agree with Andy about perception. Let me tell you a story. 

" A woodturner was talking to a customer and the customer asked if the artist had a different color in the pen. The woodturner said yes I do. Then grabbed a zip lock bag with another 30 pen [sierra] its in here somewhere. " 

How would you perceptive the value of those pens.
Cheap....

Another story " I walked into a pen store, Flahrney's pens in Washington DC last week The employee put on gloves to show a pen that was locked behind glass. 

How would you perceptive the value of the pen I handled. 

Expensive !

How do you present your writing instruments to customers. Do you show 30 of one pen type... or do you highlight a "Damascus Steel" pen by itself showing off its uniqueness. 

Its perception, perception, perception!


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## Krudwig (Jan 1, 2014)

Ok, we'll let me ask this, is there presently a known and recognized Micheal Angelo of pens either dead or alive? I like the story about pens locked behind glass and presented with white gloved hands. I also get the idea of perception as a part of the value. I was told one time by a wealthy trader/cattleman, " something is only worth what someone is willing to pay" and I guess that may be true of pens as well. I also was interested if there  any consciences on what a expensive pen looks like or is made of, or from. I'm not trying to sell pens just trying to learn about them and how to craft them and what separates a masterpiece from a cheap imitation.


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## mark james (Jan 1, 2014)

Just a few thoughts.  As a new woodturner (2 years), who has limited time - not retired or fired yet...  I look at the pictures and albums and take inspiration in the hope of improving.

I also have looked at the Guild members pictures with equal admiration.  

I agree that perception is important, and presentation and salesmenship/womenship (sp?) are part of establishing a customer's perception.  

Free market may determine what someone will pay, but "value" is not always monetary...  My 23 year old son made me set of coasters - very pretty, nice Claro Walnut, nothing special - could have bought a nicer set at a local store (I gladly supplied 4 $10.00 turning blanks and may need new tools ).  But they are priceless!

I also agree - create something special and present it as special (not 30 of them)  this established the work as...  special.


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## sbell111 (Jan 1, 2014)

OKLAHOMAN said:


> sbell111 said:
> 
> 
> > :biggrin:
> ...


The fact is, I'm the last person who should be teasing Andrew.  Most of my posts get quickly edited to fix my typos.  The rest never get corrected.  I honestly think the problem has gotten worse since I've taken to using my iPad to post.


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## kovalcik (Jan 2, 2014)

While perception is important in selling the pen, how do you convince an insurance company that the custom fountan pen was worth $300 to cover a loss?  They don't go by perception.  They go by market value.  I wonder if there a "blue book" type of standard that can be applied to a custom pen as far as materials and components.   If I bring up the Staples web page and search for "fountain pen" it gives pens in a price range of $20-$700.  How do I convince them mine is more like the $600 Delta Dolcevita Oversize Fountain Pen With Vermeil accents, Extra Fine Nib, Black/Orange | Staples® than the $55 Monteverde® Prima or the $20 Cross Aventura White Fountain Pen with Chrome Appointments and (6) Black Cartridges | Staples®


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## OKLAHOMAN (Jan 2, 2014)

Easy, get a receipt when you buy it :biggrin:.




kovalcik said:


> While perception is important in selling the pen, how do you convince an insurance company that the custom fountan pen was worth $300 to cover a loss?  They don't go by perception.  They go by market value.  I wonder if there a "blue book" type of standard that can be applied to a custom pen as far as materials and components.   If I bring up the Staples web page and search for "fountain pen" it gives pens in a price range of $20-$700.  How do I convince them mine is more like the $600 Delta Dolcevita Oversize Fountain Pen With Vermeil accents, Extra Fine Nib, Black/Orange | Staples® than the $55 Monteverde® Prima or the $20 Cross Aventura White Fountain Pen with Chrome Appointments and (6) Black Cartridges | Staples®


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## SSGMEADER (Jan 2, 2014)

Krudwig said:


> Ok, we'll let me ask this, is there presently a known and recognized Micheal Angelo of pens either dead or alive? I like the story about pens locked behind glass and presented with white gloved hands. I also get the idea of perception as a part of the value. I was told one time by a wealthy trader/cattleman, " something is only worth what someone is willing to pay" and I guess that may be true of pens as well. I also was interested if there  any consciences on what a expensive pen looks like or is made of, or from. I'm not trying to sell pens just trying to learn about them and how to craft them and what separates a masterpiece from a cheap imitation.


 
Here you go. Much like watches there are some pen creators that are viewed as the Rolexes of pens. I stumbled upon this months ago when I asked pretty much the same question.

The Top Ten Most Expensive Pens in the World - TheRichest

Here's one of my favorites although not quite as expensive as $1 million. The diamond version of this pen makes the top 10 list of most expensive but I like the look of The Caran D'ache 1010 Chronosportbetter and at $43,000 what a steal. lol


Caran d'Ache - 1010 limited edition

As a side though has anyone on here every taken say a broken Monte Verde scavenged/salvaged the parts and up cycled it into a  pen for sale or personal use?  As far as how you convince them? First I'd start with the fact that even if in limited quantities those $20 and $55 Cross pens are mass produced at a factory yours was lovingly hand crafted. There's something to be said about that no matter what the product in my opinion.


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## ed4copies (Jan 2, 2014)

kovalcik said:


> While perception is important in selling the pen, how do you convince an insurance company that the custom fountan pen was worth $300 to cover a loss?  They don't go by perception.  They go by market value.  I wonder if there a "blue book" type of standard that can be applied to a custom pen as far as materials and components.   If I bring up the Staples web page and search for "fountain pen" it gives pens in a price range of $20-$700.  How do I convince them mine is more like the $600 Delta Dolcevita Oversize Fountain Pen With Vermeil accents, Extra Fine Nib, Black/Orange | Staples® than the $55 Monteverde® Prima or the $20 Cross Aventura White Fountain Pen with Chrome Appointments and (6) Black Cartridges | Staples®




Perception is NOT important in insurance claims.

You have a group of pens and they are all damaged in a fire (for example), you will probably recover ONLY the cost of the kits and blanks, UNLESS you can show records (probably backed by your tax returns to match the income) that prove that you sold very similar pens at the $300 you claim it is worth.

If you have NOT sold similar pens at the lofty price levels, then, in fact your work does NOT have that established value.  Insurance companies will not pay your perception of a value, unless you sue them successfully---which will also require a history of the value you claim.

Hope that helps,
Ed


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## PenPal (Jan 2, 2014)

My simple answer is ANY PEN made by SKIPPY STEVEN.

ANY UP GRADE CAST BY JOHNATHON.

Check with ED STREET ANY PEN BY HIS PROTEGE . (a teaser something about canes)

These people have earned their stripes of course but on Tuesday I took a short cut accidentally off a roof to Hospital and my shocking memory for names temporarily has not returned. I told the Doc yesterday I couldnt play the piano now causing some consternation before I revealed I could not before the awful fall.

Alls well that ends well I am up about and noisy.

Sorry for no long lists of my heroes and heroines who produce world class results that capture huge prices easily you all know who you are.

Kind regards Peter.


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## Krudwig (Jan 2, 2014)

Ok, thanks for the links to the expensive pens. I also had another thought, does the kit that you buy limit the value of the finished pen. Like does a $2 slimline kit automatically keep a pen from being a $300 dollar pen or could a slimline in the hands of the master pen maker become a masterpiece?  I like the varied answers that all have posted. 
Thanks Larry !


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## mikespenturningz (Jan 2, 2014)

I have seen pens that are expensive and not so expensive. If you are selling your pens in the range that you price them that is what the pen is worth. I can put a $1000 price on a pen but until I actually sell it for that amount it has no real value other than the cost of it parts. If you are selling your pens for what you are asking then you have established a price. Just my humble opinion.

I remember that top 10 pen list. Very cool.


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## mikespenturningz (Jan 2, 2014)

Krudwig said:


> Ok, thanks for the links to the expensive pens. I also had another thought, does the kit that you buy limit the value of the finished pen. Like does a $2 slimline kit automatically keep a pen from being a $300 dollar pen or could a slimline in the hands of the master pen maker become a masterpiece?  I like the varied answers that all have posted.
> Thanks Larry !



I have seen a few guys here that make slimline pens into masterpieces. 

My way of thinking about it is that we don't have much control over the hardware. We do have control over the blank. I like to make my own blanks and rarely turn someone else's blanks because it is all I am supplying to the pen. I want that to be uniquely mine! I see some really beautiful acrylic blanks being made here and really love the looks of them but they are not mine. I purchase my wood usually as large pieces and cut them the best way I know how to get the most beautiful pens from them. I segment and develop my own techniques for doing this. This makes my pens my own as best I can make them. I develop my own way of finishing and sanding. That is where the value comes into play. It doesn't make me better it just makes me different.


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## beck3906 (Jan 2, 2014)

Krudwig said:


> Ok, thanks for the links to the expensive pens. I also had another thought, does the kit that you buy limit the value of the finished pen. Like does a $2 slimline kit automatically keep a pen from being a $300 dollar pen or could a slimline in the hands of the master pen maker become a masterpiece?  I like the varied answers that all have posted.
> Thanks Larry !



Here's a thread I started a while back.

http://www.penturners.org/forum/f14/question-about-slims-103747/


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## maxwell_smart007 (Jan 3, 2014)

I don't often let mistakes like that slip through - I must have been really shivering when I typed that!


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## maxwell_smart007 (Jan 3, 2014)

Actually, I see that I posted that at 12:30 AM on New Years, so I have another, more appropriate excuse for a grammatical mistake.  I should actually get an award for my post being so legible!


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## edstreet (Jan 3, 2014)

maxwell_smart007 said:


> Actually, I see that I posted that at 12:30 AM on New Years, so I have another, more appropriate excuse for a grammatical mistake.  I should actually get an award for my post being so legible!



Isn't that off topic?  Thought the topic was what makes pens valuable.


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## alphageek (Jan 3, 2014)

edstreet said:


> Isn't that off topic?  Thought the topic was what makes pens valuable.



I have to ask - so what?   Topics are conversation starters and flow like conversations.   There is only a few places on the IAP where off-topic isn't allowed and they normally are either in the market place area or where they break a different rule (like personal attacks).

I don't recall anyone appointing you the topic police.    I also DO happen to know exactly why you posted this and I think you are just intentionally trying to be a pain and I recommend you stop.

Dean
Assistant Mod


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## Smitty37 (Jan 3, 2014)

Economics 101 or any Real Estate prep course.  The value is:

The maximum a willing and able buyer will offer to pay and a willing and able seller will accept for any item when the transaction is entered freely and willingly by both parties with no outside interference or influence.  

Salesmanship can help the seller and being a good talker who is well informed on the subject can help the buyer but selling a pen for a high price in one venue is not guarantee you can do that in another venue regardless of how good a salesman you are.  Trust me on this - I have paid a lot more for a few of my pens than I would have to pay on the open market because of the venue and circumstances under which I purchased them.  That's not to say they aren't worth what I paid, but it does say that you could get one almost like them (each is unique) for less.  I also have a couple that you'd have to pay a lot more for than I did, for the same reason, the venue and circumstances under which I got them.

In short, at others have said, the value is what the traffic will bear.  If you will sell your item for $20 and someone will buy at that price that's the value -- even if someone else would have paid you $300.

The value for insurance and/or estate taxes is a different matter.  Insurance companies paying claims will be interested in minimizing the claim and will require documentation, the estate tax man, on the other hand, is not interested in that and would probably accept the higher figure without question.

If you think you have $300 pens you might want to get a rider for your insurance by showing pictures and stating the actual value of each pen.
It is a pain in the neck but might be worth it.


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