# Religious Content in Signatures



## jeff (Jan 28, 2009)

On the topic of including religious content in signatures.

We have always banned discussion of religious topics because they consistently degenerate into arguments. However, we have not specifically addressed the issue of religious quotes, sayings, verses, etc. in post signatures. This is consistent with our TOS and AUP because technically it is not discussion, and frankly it has never seemed to be an issue that needed to be dealt with by policy. However, recently some members have complained about religious content in signatures, asserting that it is not or should not be allowed by policy, and it's offensive. We ran a poll, allowed extensive discussion on the topic, and it's clear that we need to address this specifically. 

I've corresponded with many of you on both sides of the issue, and consulted with the management team. My conclusion is that we will continue to allow religious content in signatures, subject to the guidelines below. 

I'm sure you all realize that there is no 100% solution to this. I can only do what I think is fair, balanced, and reasonable. I try to make decisions which benefit the greatest number of members from two perspectives; improving the quality of pen making information, and enhancing the spirit of community and friendship.  Banning religious content in signatures, while it might improve the experience for some members who take offense at such content, does not significantly further either goal. Furthermore, determining whether something is or isn't religious is difficult. What one person thinks is a simple song lyric he likes, another person feels is an assault on religion. 

The simple one-click solution for me is to turn off signatures. That completely solves the problem in a way that nobody can complain about. No names, no towns, no links, no graphics, no funny sayings, no song lyrics, no bible verses, and absolutely no chance to misinterpret anything. We wouldn't need the concept of tolerance because there would be nothing to tolerate. Easy on me, easy on Curtis, easy on all of you. While I'm at it, I could close Casual Conversation, Other Things We Make, disable smiles, avatars, and bring on some more moderators to scrutinize every single post for anything that looks unrelated to penturning. 

There is no real NEED for any sort of signature. We don't need to know anything about each other to exchange information. However, part of belonging to a community is getting to know each other. In order to support each other and build and maintain friendships and care about each other, we need to have the opportunity share parts of ourselves that we feel are important and help define us as individuals. Sometimes that peek into your personality includes something of a religious nature, and I think forbidding that holds us closer to maintaining anonymity rather than building community.

I can't let our community degrade into a boring, vanilla place where the only thing we care about is penturning. Some of you have written to me saying, "I come here to learn about penturning and nothing else." Well, that's fine and maybe someday a forum will spring up where they don't know a darn thing about each other can limit their discussions to CA fumes and wobbly mandrels and how to cast cat fur. But that's not this place. If you are purely here to exchange pen making information, see the note below about turning off all signatures and avatars. That will provide a more sanitized experience for you.

I have never guaranteed that you are going to have an experience here free of anything that offends you. I can't possibly know what offends you and protect you from it. I have to ask you to take some responsibility for that yourself. As the TOS says, we don't tolerate things which are clearly "...threatening, abusive, harassing, tortuous, defamatory, vulgar, obscene, libelous...", etc. 

However, let's be realistic -- we simply can't be nitpickers and try to shoehorn someone's bible quote or mention of evolution into the concept of harassment just because it's different from your viewpoint. If a particular member's signature offends you, visit the options pane of your user control panel and add that person to your ignore list. If you don't want to accept a member's unique personality, which might include a religious viewpoint, why accept their penturning knowledge - it's a package deal. 

*I'm going to add the following to the Signature Guidelines section of the AUP:*



> We do not encourage the use of religious content in signatures. However, we recognize that a person's religious convictions or lack thereof are important aspects of their personality. Sharing such information can dissolve some of the anonymity of the Internet and help to build relationships and a sense of community.
> 
> Brief statements which contain religious ideas are permitted in signatures. Do not use your signature as a "bully pulpit", or as a means to belittle or offend other members. Don't demean other points of view.



*If you find a particular signature offensive, you have options:*


Tolerate it as an alternate viewpoint you don't agree with.
Add the user to your Ignore List in the options section of your user control panel.
Turn off viewing of all signatures from the options tab of your user control panel.
*Do not contact me for permission to use a particular signature. *

You need to interpret the TOS and AUP and decide how you want to be portrayed by your fellow members. If specific complaints are received about your signature, I will evaluate the complaint and decide whether or not your signature falls within the spirit of the signature guidelines in the AUP.

Thanks for all your comments on this issue.


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## Steve Busey (Jan 28, 2009)

Well handled IMHO, Jeff.

Now let's all go make some pens!


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## Dario (Jan 28, 2009)

Thank you Jeff.


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## alphageek (Jan 28, 2009)

Very Nice Jeff... Perfect fit for how this site 'feels' on good days. :star:


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## BobBurt (Jan 28, 2009)

Thank you very much


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## winpooh498 (Jan 28, 2009)

Thanks Jeff!!


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## DocStram (Jan 28, 2009)

Jeff, 

We apologize for all the grief, time, and energy that you spent deliberating on this matter.  

You listened carefully to what all sides had to say ... and then reached a rationale, fair decision.   

We appreciate both you and the IAP site! 

(If only you weren't a Cleveland Browns fan.)


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## el_d (Jan 28, 2009)

:bananen_smilies046::bananen_smilies026: and now back to our scheduled forum. Thanks Jeff.


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## thewishman (Jan 28, 2009)

Well reasoned and well expressed. Thank you, Jeff. I love this place.


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## bitshird (Jan 28, 2009)

Jeff, have you considered taking over as either a UN representative or Secretary of State, I think that once there was another man with your wisdom some King named Solomon. You sir are a wise man, and a maker of peace.


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## GoodTurns (Jan 28, 2009)

well stated...now where's that (*&^ cat fur and resin?


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## THarvey (Jan 28, 2009)

Jeff,

With over 6,900 members, there is no way you could express an option that would please everyone.

Thank you for taking a well thought out considered approach to this question.  As it has been said many times, we are a community.  Everyone of us is a unique individual (some maybe more unique than others).

As one of the many, I appreciate your sense of fairness and your ongoing efforts to maintain the best penmaking community in the world.

I am sure deliberating over this topic has added a few gray hairs to your head.  

Hopefully, we will give you some time before the next "big crisis" erupts. :biggrin:

Now, as someone else said earlier:  Let's go make some beautiful pens.

Tim

BTW:  I miss your twitchy nose avitar.


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## NewLondon88 (Jan 28, 2009)

Well done


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## rdunn12 (Jan 28, 2009)

Very well said Jeff.I agree 100%.


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## dgscott (Jan 28, 2009)

Well handled -- well argued, balanced, and reasonable.
Doug


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## ldb2000 (Jan 28, 2009)

BRAVO !!!! . Now that that's all taken care of we can get back to the important stuff we come here for ...Making pens and making fun of Cav's pink uni ! :biggrin:


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## rjwolfe3 (Jan 28, 2009)

> and making fun of Cav's pink uni ! :biggrin:



OOOOOOooooo I love making fun of Cav . . . and his pink uni!!!!


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## jedgerton (Jan 28, 2009)

Jeff,

Wow, you've certainly put it into perspective for all of us.  I couldn't agree more and I really appreciate all that you do.  This site is #1 in my book.

John


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## CaptG (Jan 28, 2009)

Thank you Jeff, for your time and fairness invested in this great site.


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## ronhampton (Jan 28, 2009)

way to go jeff!:bananen_smilies046::biggrin:


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## mick (Jan 28, 2009)

:good::good:


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## Skye (Jan 28, 2009)

Jeff, can you scribe that into a stone tablet?


KIDDING, KIDDING!


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## Jim15 (Jan 28, 2009)

Thanks for all you do for this site Jeff.


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## johnkofi (Jan 29, 2009)

Great Job Jeff!!! We appreciate your time and effort you use putting up with us!!

Thanks -


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## PenWorks (Jan 29, 2009)

_"However, recently some members have complained about religious content in signatures, asserting that it is not or should not be allowed by policy, and it's offensive"_

Some folks have way to much time on their hands. :bad: Some day they need to grow up and accept they can't have everything their way 

I guess I missed the vote and discussion so there was my 2 cents. 

Very diplomatic solution


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## gketell (Jan 29, 2009)

Well reasoned and well stated, Jeff.  Thanks for your handling of this and all things IAP!!
GK


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## wdcav1952 (Jan 29, 2009)

Excellently done, Jeff.  I enjoy the lively atmosphere of this forum and think you have reached a well thought out decision to preserve the feel of the forum without intrusive censoring by members or Management.

There is a new issue for you to consider, however.  I would like for you to think about eliminating color from all photos and discussions.  They are hurting my tender feelings by picking on my uniform! :crying::crying::crying::crying:

Those  mean guys are driving me to :drink::drink::drink::drink:  On second thought, that is not all bad.  :hypnotized::drink::hypnotized::drink:

Nevermind!! :biggrin:


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## Ozzy (Jan 29, 2009)

Great job Jeff. Thank you for all of your time and effort.


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## leehljp (Jan 29, 2009)

I know that was a difficult process. It takes character and fortitude to make decisions one way or another. Some will seek to leave either way. The majority will not abandon; It is your forum and respect must be accorded to you (and Curtis) as owner and moderator.


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## Mudder (Jan 29, 2009)

DocStram said:


> Jeff,
> 
> We apologize for all the grief, time, and energy that you spent deliberating on this matter.
> 
> ...



I agree, Very equitable and well thought out solution. Thank you Jeff.


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## Gordon (Jan 29, 2009)

Jeff - - outstanding job - I'm very impressed with your handling of this matter.

Thanks for all you do for us.

Gordon


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## skywizzard (Jan 29, 2009)

Good job, very reasonable policy.


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## wolftat (Jan 29, 2009)

Does this mean that we ain't having a holy war on the forum????? I would rather make pens anyways.


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## garypeck (Jan 29, 2009)

was reading what Jeff said.....

You mean you guys do cats fur in resin??  (Im serious...not joking here)


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## Daniel (Jan 29, 2009)

Gary, somebody tried bit it was to hard to get the cat to stay still long enough for the resin to cure.


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## ilikewood (Jan 29, 2009)

Excellent policy!

Took me a few minutes to quit laughing and get off the floor after Daniels response.


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## CSue (Jan 29, 2009)

Jeff, excellent reasoning and presentation.  Well balanced and fair to all, IMHO.

Now about that twichy nose - I miss it, too.


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## NewLondon88 (Jan 29, 2009)

Daniel said:


> Gary, somebody tried bit it was to hard to get the cat to stay still long enough for the resin to cure.



Two words:
Chloro
Form


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## woody350ep (Jan 29, 2009)

Gary, one of your fearless moderators has cast a cat turd, so why couldn't you do fur??????  Of course, the turd wouldn't fight back lol


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## MikeMcM1956 (Jan 29, 2009)

Finally a good reason to have a cat around the house. Here kitty, kitty, kitty ....

(Legal Disclaimer: No actual cats were harmed in the writing of this post. Yet.)

Jeff,
Being one member who has watched this with both concern and amusement from the sidelines, I wondered how this would come to a head. I am a person of great tolerance of both sides and opinions, and prefer to save my sig line for something much less profound. My hat is off to you in your handling of this issue .

Mike


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## papaturner (Jan 29, 2009)

Like Mike I too have watched(with absolute amazement) from the sidelines as all this unfolded,and for one was concerned as to how it would all be finialize. I must say that you did an excellent job and made an excellent judgement. Thanks for all you do.


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## TellicoTurning (Jan 29, 2009)

Jeff,
Thanks for addressing this, although I believe it "much ado about nothing".  

I once worked with a fellow who converted from catholic to pentacostal and started out to convert me... to end any and all argument/discussion,  I said to him  "You can't prove that the Bible is the word of God and I can't prove that it is not - it is a very good history of man, and was written by man for man"  That ended all discussion of religion in that office. 

You have a fantastic and very well administered forum here that I thoroughly enjoy every day.  Keep up the good work.


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## SherryD (Jan 29, 2009)

if you would use the white resin instead of the clear the potential for casing cat fur would be far greater.  The white sets up faster (DUH).
Oh, by the way, thank you Jeff for what is clearly a well thought out response.  Sorry you even had to go thru the process.


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