# Interest ?  .... multi-start tap and die



## jjudge (Feb 22, 2008)

Forward research from the penturners.org folks have done the homework, so I'm trying to see if there is interest in pursuing this ...

*Are there 10+ folks who would want to purchase a multi-start tap and die set for somewhere near $200 ?*

I'd take the hit to coordinate, order, etc. 

 -- joe

*Details*

See link at bottom of this posting, for link to a penturners.org picture + discussion.

Tap and die are used to cut threads.
This would be for an El Grande pen cap to pen body ... unless we want to pick another style?

I contacted Bruce, who is happy to share their details of doing this.
At 10 sets, his price per tap/die set came down to $215.
Our price would probably be similar, if we chose a different size.
Our price would possibly be lower, if we chose that El Grande size, since the initial tooling is done.

Excerpt from Bruce (BRobbins629):
_
... for those who asked about the triple start taps and dies, 
I am partially to blame. I sent off a coupler from the El Grande 
to a company in Poland who has a sales office in Florida (E-taps.com). 

They came back with a price of over $500 for a set. At ten sets, the price came to about $215 each including all shipping costs to the individuals. 

I was very reluctant to offer a group buy at this price since they were still very pricey and I wasn't sure if they would even work. I found a few willing early tryers with no promises. 

George was the first to post and he made us all smile. If someone wants to do a group buy on more, I feel very comfortable with the company and they appear to be quality tools. The ground work is done.
_

*... from page 2 of this thread. *
http://www.penturners.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=33406
</u>


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## Ligget (Feb 22, 2008)

I would like to be in on the group buy![]


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## jtate (Feb 22, 2008)

Yep, I'd like to be in on it.

Could someone who has the set post pictures of the equipment - perhaps even in use?  That would be great.

Julia


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## DaveM (Feb 22, 2008)

I would be in.  I have been playing with threading on a lathe, and the T/D set would be much better for making a number of pens.  

One question.  Do you mean that the diameter of the tap and die are compatible with the El Grande kit, or that the actual thread is compatible with the kit?  Would a user need to thread both halves of a pen for it to work, or could he use the die to thread the body, and put the kit cap on?  Either way, I am interested.  Just curious.  Most of the pens I want to make would not use any of the kit couplers or centerband parts.


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## Texatdurango (Feb 22, 2008)

> _Originally posted by jtate_
> 
> Yep, I'd like to be in on it.
> 
> ...


Cutting the threads is really straight forward and as crude as my method is, I would be more than happy to share what I do if only to show that you can produce nice threads in pen bodies without the use of metal or CNC lathes.... AND it's a lot of fun!

If I get a chance I'll pop out to the shop this afternoon and take a few photos.


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## Texatdurango (Feb 22, 2008)

> _Originally posted by DaveM_
> 
> ....One question.  Do you mean that the diameter of the tap and die are compatible with the El Grande kit, or that the actual thread is compatible with the kit?  Would a user need to thread both halves of a pen for it to work, or could he use the die to thread the body, and put the kit cap on?...


I hope this will help answer your questions....

The tap and die set will cut 100% compatible threads for both the El Grande and Ligero fountain pen kits. (At least all the ones I have dealt with so far and I don't know about the rollerball versions.) 

#1 Uses a stock El Grande nib holder and brass ring which just glues into the acrylic blank, no brass tube to show through!

#2 Uses cut threads and the body is also tapped to accept the El Grande or Ligero nib holder*.  Again, no brass tubes, these pens are VERY light!

#3 Is a cap with cut threads into the acrylic, no brass tube used and has an imbedded home made clip.

#4 Is a cap with cut threads into the acrylic, no brass tube used.  The center band is made from a M3 Nickel Silver blank.

#5 Is a stock El Grande cap

The long and short of it is that each lower body and cap are 100% interchangeable both ways giving you many choices as to how to make your pen.  You could cut a custom lower body and thread it onto a stock Ligero or El Grande cap or take a stock lower body and make a custom threaded cap.

*The Ligero nib holder itself is threaded and will thread into the cap cut with the new tap.  You can turn the threads and part of the holder off and cover it with acrylic or wood to make a nice custom look.


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## Dan_F (Feb 22, 2008)

I'm interested in a tap and die set.

Does this way of mounting the front section have any effect on the inherent weakness of the El Grande/Churchill assembly that has been documented in other threads?

Is there an available source of these nib assemblies without buying the whole El Grande kit?

Dan


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## Texatdurango (Feb 22, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Dan_F_
> 
> I'm interested in a tap and die set.
> 
> ...


I don't know about others but I have never read any threads where the weakness was discussed, and didn't even know there was a porblem.

As far as the sources, Arizona Silhouette sells the Berea #BHW-704 nib assemblies themselves from $4-$8 depending on width of nib.


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## Dan_F (Feb 22, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Texatdurango_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## rlharding (Feb 22, 2008)

I am interested.


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## lane223 (Feb 22, 2008)

I'm also interested in the T&D set.


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## DaveM (Feb 22, 2008)

Thanks for answering my question.  I was hoping that was the case.  I will mostly be making the #2 body and #4 cap, but it will be nice to have the other options.  Now, I need to figure out how to tap for the sections to fit into the body, or how to turn the threads off, and press fit them.  (That's the simple part compared to cutting the cap and body threads)  With a simple small tap and die to fit the nib holder and the front of the barrel, and nib holders turned on the metal lathe, I could make rollerballs with no kit parts.  (Except clips, left over from my CE pens)  I could also turn fountain pens that just used a nib and feed assembly.  

Thanks again,
Dave


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## sptfr43 (Feb 22, 2008)

count me in. I missed out on the last group buy at another site on these. Hope this goes through


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## BRobbins629 (Feb 22, 2008)

This is the specification developed for the El Grande/Churchill.  It was based on measurements taken by the company on a coupler I sent to them.   When you ask for a quotation, you may tell them that its to the same specification that was made for my order and they may waive the special tooling charge for the die.  Also note that you can buy 3 styles of tap - Taper, Plug or Bottoming.  I chose the plug which is intermediate.  Read up on the differences if you are interested, but know that the plug style works as you can see in Texatdurango's posts.

We are pleased to offer special metric tap(s) and die(s) M12.0x0.8Px2.4L triple start per sample provided as follows:

SPECIFICATIONS:
- material of tools: M2 (HSS) steel 
- ground thread and shank
- thread tolerances assumed: 6H 
- taps: Taper, Plug or Bottoming (specify when ordering)
- straight flute 
- die(s) are circular, split, adjustable with 1" OD
- for dies one time special tooling charge of $65.00
- special orders are not refundable not returnable


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## Tanner (Feb 22, 2008)

Count me in.


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## jjudge (Feb 22, 2008)

George, Bruce -- thanks for the extra info, pictures and explanation.

8 postings of interest here + 1 via email + me = 10 interested parties

I'll connect with Bruce off-line, get the details, and start contacting the e-taps.com folks.
I'll post info/status here.

-- joe


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## kirkfranks (Feb 22, 2008)

Joe,
As a purchasing professional I would like to suggest that you might want to ask the supplier to provide pricing at higher price breaks also.  You got 10 folks interested in less than 12 hours.  You might get that number up to 20 or more in only a couple of days and the price may go down a good bit.  It is worth asking about other quantities.  What qty would it take to get down to $150.00 range?
I have assumed that you do not already have that information because I did not remember seeing it posted.  If I am wrong on that I apologize in advance.


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## Firefyter-emt (Feb 22, 2008)

Man would I!!  But funding does not allow it... [V]

Dan_F to answer your question, this would end the problem of the Churchill breakage, in fact if you took a Churchill kit and if this tap & die is designed on the Churchill threads, I assume that you could thread the body of a Churchill and use the cap centerband to thread onto the body and keep the look of a Churchill, but greatly improve it with a threaded body. (Edit: This was infact covered in the photos, but I missed it..)

This is a milsetone in these kit pens guys... Maybe someday I can get one myself.  Thanks to all those who worked on this to make it happen!

I am curious about the nib coupler threads though, what do you use for a tap on that? Is it a single start thread?


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## IPD_Mrs (Feb 22, 2008)

If there is a chance of getting the price down a bit with more buyers, then we would be interested as well.

Mike & Linda


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## BRobbins629 (Feb 22, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Firefyter-emt_
> 
> 
> I am curious about the nib coupler threads though, what do you use for a tap on that? Is it a single start thread?


Works with a single start 10mm x 1mm metric tap.


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## alamocdc (Feb 23, 2008)

Joe, I'm interested, but I need to check my funds. How long do I have?


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## johncrane (Feb 23, 2008)

l'm also interested.


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## WriteRev (Feb 23, 2008)

I'm interested if you have room for more.

Steve


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## bjackman (Feb 23, 2008)

I am interested as well. Hoping we might hit another price break?


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## Stevej72 (Feb 23, 2008)

Count me in.


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## jjudge (Feb 23, 2008)

*Info*
There are some folks like me ... interested, but the $200-ish price tag is scary. I can't promise, but I'll try to figure something out (e.g., break the orders into 2, but for total quantity discount, or I'll front the $$ for a month wait time; or something)

So, let me know if you are interested, can't make this purchase, but could in a month (or so).

*Status*
23 Feb 2008, Saturday

I sent off email to the point of contact, asking for both:

(1) pricing on the existing set that Bruce pioneered in a couple quantity steps (1, 10, 20, etc).

and

(2) "What if" we were to kick up a smaller, new set?
(assume: 1, 10, 20 quantity) ... for potential future Jr Gent or Barons.


--joe


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## sptfr43 (Feb 23, 2008)

Hope this works out[]


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## alamocdc (Feb 24, 2008)

Joe, I checked the funds and I'm good for the original set. Just let me know.


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## Ligget (Feb 24, 2008)

[quote

(2) "What if" we were to kick up a smaller, new set?
(assume: 1, 10, 20 quantity) ... for potential future Jr Gent or Barons.


--joe

[/quote]

I would love a smaller set too for Jr Gent or Barons, hope this takes off too![]


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## igran7 (Feb 24, 2008)

I would be interested as well.  Hopefully we can get enough interested for an additional price break.


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## gketell (Feb 24, 2008)

I would be interested in both sets.

GK
What a way to "celebrate" my thousandth post: a $400 commit to purchase more pen turning tools!!   Let's hope my wife doesn't see this until after I've made a pen to show off! [)]


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## jjudge (Feb 25, 2008)

*Quick status*

I got a Sunday reply from the e-taps.com contact.
Prices may be higher by 3-6% due to dollar-to-zloty rate changes.
But, I'm guessing that if we have larger numbers than Bruce pursued then we'd still be cheaper because of the price-break.
I'll have confirmed prices on Monday.


*Giving up on the smaller set, for now*
in re: smaller set
e-taps.com confirmed the same info that Bruce gave (e.g., longer time, send example to Poland, initial tooling cost).
The interest seems is there (but small) for the smaller sized set.
So, I'll leave that for a future group purchase ... 


-- joe


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## Ligget (Feb 25, 2008)

Thanks for the update Joe!


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## sptfr43 (Feb 25, 2008)

just tell me where to send the money[]


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## JC_UAH (Feb 25, 2008)

I might be interested, depending on final price.

Jeff
Huntsville, AL


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## Rojo22 (Feb 25, 2008)

If I understand this the tap and die are for the cap and the body of the pen.  If I understand there is another die needed for the tip to go into the body.  Do we buy that separte or is there another die included in the kit?


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## jjudge (Feb 25, 2008)

Actual purchase posting: http://www.penturners.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=34016
I'll email folks -- post your actual purchase request to the new posting. 


OK ... I think I have all the numbers.
I got the quote from e-taps and I chatted a bit with Bruce.

It looks like:  $129 + $66, for threading cap/body
and an optional ~$6 tap if you want to cut nib holder threads


*Details:*

For El Grande style pen:

*- Tap to thread the cap*
M12.0x0.8Px2.4L triple start tap(s)as described above:
3-5 pc   $193.00 each 
6-9 pc      $149.00 each
10-23 pc    $129.00 each

*- Die to thread the body*
M12.0x0.8Px2.4L triple start die(s)as described above:
3-5 pc $102.00 each  
6-9 pc $ 71.00 each 
10-23 pc  $ 66.00 each  


*- Optional tap for inside the body*
For tapping the inside of the body to hold the nib, you may want to also pick up a tap. I'll get a quote from e-taps (sorry, I forgot to ask). Bruce pointed me to this example:
http://tinyurl.com/2o7wgm
10mm x 1.0 mm plug tap ... approx $5 to $6


 -- joe


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## Stevej72 (Feb 25, 2008)

Sounds good to me, let me know where to send the money.


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## jjudge (Mar 1, 2008)

Note to all

The group purchase thread ... for this tap and die set ... is closing.

see: http://www.penturners.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=34016&whichpage=1


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