# Interest in "Name Brand" nibs/feeds



## Texatdurango (Mar 31, 2010)

In another thread started by Glycerine, Jeremy is looking into a group buy for some fountain nibs from Bock, a German company who is known for producing nice nibs. 

This poll is not intended to undermine his efforts, instead is intended to provide further information to help in making buying decisions.  


ASSUMING the "price is right", please indicate in the poll how many you would be interested in.


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## arioux (Mar 31, 2010)

Hi,

Are you looking at the nib only or the triple and quad system ?


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## glycerine (Mar 31, 2010)

Me personally have asked Bock for pricing info on nibs only as well as the triple and quad system.  But, I think if we can get nibs that fit the common "kits" that we use, just purchasing nibs would be sufficient.  Unless there are alot of kitless guys out there that would be interested.

For those of you that don't know, the triple is the nib, feed and feed housing and the quad is the nib, feed, feed housing and section.


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## mrcook4570 (Mar 31, 2010)

The quad system sounds interesting.


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## witz1976 (Mar 31, 2010)

Does the Triple and Quad even fit the common pen or are these for kitless pens?


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## Texatdurango (Mar 31, 2010)

witz1976 said:


> Does the Triple and Quad even fit the common pen or are these for kitless pens?


 
I don't believe anyone knows that answer just yet. Just taking a shot in the dark I would _guess_ that the triple system would not just screw into a kit section nor would the quad system simply screw into the kit barrel. Remember, there are lots of kits, so the term is used very loosely! 

If I were to hazard another guess, I would think we would stand a better chances of just the nibs fitting the kit feeds than the other options above.  Of course, to the "kitless" guys, none of this matters much unless they are still "kit and kitless" makers like myself.

The only way to answer those types of questions would be to actually get some nibs, feeds, housings and even sections in our hands and do some actual measuring.


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## glycerine (Mar 31, 2010)

Texatdurango said:


> I don't believe anyone knows that answer just yet. Just taking a shot in the dark I would _guess_ that the triple system would not just screw into a kit section nor would the quad system simply screw into the kit barrel. Remember, there are lots of kits, so the term is used very loosely!
> 
> If I were to hazard another guess, I would think we would stand a better chances of just the nibs fitting the kit feeds than the other options above. Of course, to the "kitless" guys, none of this matters much unless they are still "kit and kitless" makers like myself.
> 
> The only way to answer those types of questions would be to actually get some nibs, feeds, housings and even sections in our hands and do some actual measuring.


 
I have samples on the way from Germany, so I will have more info when I have them...  not sure how long international mail will take though.
Can anyone with previous experience chime in?


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## arioux (Mar 31, 2010)

Bock section thread are M8 5x1.  Don't know what kit thread are.


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## Russianwolf (Mar 31, 2010)

8.5x1 is definitely close, but how close is the question.


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## ed4copies (Mar 31, 2010)

The samples took over a month to arrive.

I was not satisfied with the fit.

YMMV!


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## glycerine (Mar 31, 2010)

ed4copies said:


> The samples took over a month to arrive.
> 
> I was not satisfied with the fit.
> 
> YMMV!


 
Do you remember which types you tried?  They have several sizes.  And did your nibs not fit in the "kit" feeds, or feeds didn't fit in the "kit" housing, or...


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## glycerine (Mar 31, 2010)

ed4copies said:


> The samples took over a month to arrive.
> 
> I was not satisfied with the fit.
> 
> YMMV!


 
Also, how long ago was it?  I know that the CSUSA jr. kits changed not too long ago...


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## ed4copies (Mar 31, 2010)

Jeremy,

It was my intention to offer them as a higher end option.

We old folks don't retain details well and that was last September.

Short of spending over $25,000 for the assortment and having them re-tooled either there or in "my backyard (several shops in Racine could do this, for an additional cost)"  I could not see a way to make the project "workable".

If someone here FINDS a way, I would certainly participate at the wholesale level.  Remember, to sell thousands of nibs, you will have to IMPROVE the performance of several DIFFERENT kits.  TO ME, the math did not work.

When you get the samples, I HOPE you exceed my abilities.

Remember, if YOU decide it will work and dozens of guys take part in the purchase and there is a glitch you missed, will you refund all of THEIR investments???

Again, this was a gamble I was UNWILLING to take.

You are WELCOME to have more guts!


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## glycerine (Mar 31, 2010)

In any case there's always the option for doing kitless in which we'll get the quad system and it will work for anything we can build around it.

As far as the kits are concerned, either the nibs fit or they don't.  I don't think we'd go any further with "re-tooling" if they don't fit at least a few different kits and I think you were smart not to either.


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## DCBluesman (Mar 31, 2010)

BINGO!

Later this year I will have to analyze whether or not to place re-orders on steel and gold nibs.  Preliminary estimates indicate that it will require an investment of $46,000 to use my existing molds and specifications, which DO fit most of the current kits.  Selling gold nibs one at a time or steel nibs 5 at a time makes it time consuming and not particularly cost effective.  If anyone wants to take over the burden and can price the nibs competitively with what Anthony Turchetta, Brian Gray and I charge, I'd definitely be interested in getting out of the nib business. 



ed4copies said:


> Jeremy,
> 
> It was my intention to offer them as a higher end option.
> 
> ...


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## ed4copies (Mar 31, 2010)

glycerine said:


> In any case there's always the option for doing kitless in which we'll get the quad system and it will work for anything we can build around it.
> 
> As far as the kits are concerned, either the nibs fit or they don't.  I don't think we'd go any further with "re-tooling" if they don't fit at least a few different kits and I think you were smart not to either.




As I recall, you can screw a Jr. Gent nib into a baron.  The threads don't QUITE mesh, but it will stay there.  Is that a FIT???

Different people will have different answers, to ME the answer is NO.  But, it MAY work--this is why I continually have said it does not SUIT ME--YMMV!!!


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## glycerine (Mar 31, 2010)

DCBluesman said:


> BINGO!
> 
> Later this year I will have to analyze whether or not to place re-orders on steel and gold nibs. Preliminary estimates indicate that it will require an investment of $46,000 to use my existing molds and specifications, which DO fit most of the current kits. Selling gold nibs one at a time or steel nibs 5 at a time makes it time consuming and not particularly cost effective. If anyone wants to take over the burden and can price the nibs competitively with what Anthony Turchetta, Brian Gray and I charge, I'd definitely be interested in getting out of the nib business.


 
This isn't meant to replace what you or others sell, I'm not trying to be anyone's competition. And this would not be me buying a bunch of nibs and reselling them. What I would hope to accomplish if there is enough interest is a "group buy" of sorts. I know Bock has minimum order quanities, so if enough members want to order enough nibs to reach that MOQ, then we'd take up a collection and place an order. 
I know it's not as simple as 1,2,3 but I don't see it being THAT different that group buys on pen kits.


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## glycerine (Mar 31, 2010)

ed4copies said:


> As I recall, you can screw a Jr. Gent nib into a baron. The threads don't QUITE mesh, but it will stay there. Is that a FIT???
> 
> Different people will have different answers, to ME the answer is NO. But, it MAY work--this is why I continually have said it does not SUIT ME--YMMV!!!


 
I would not consider that a fit.  Others may.  The best solution to that type of problem might just be to get a list of interested members, place the samples in a box and send them on the next person on the list.  Let people try for themselves and see what they think.  Or better yet, everyone can contact Bock and ask for samples.  I'm not trying to make all of the decisions.  If this carries forward it will be a group effort...


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## ed4copies (Mar 31, 2010)

glycerine said:


> This isn't meant to replace what you or others sell, I'm not trying to be anyone's competition. And this would not be me buying a bunch of nibs and reselling them. What I would hope to accomplish if there is enough interest is a "group buy" of sorts. I know Bock has minimum order quanities, so if enough members want to order enough nibs to reach that MOQ, then we'd take up a collection and place an order.
> I know it's not as simple as 1,2,3 but I don't see it being THAT different that group buys on pen kits.



Here's the reason this is different from a "group buy":  "the purpose intended".  When you buy kits from CSUSA, Rizheng, or any other manufacturer, they are MADE for the purpose of creating a "handmade pen".

If you buy nibs from Bock, they are created for the purpose of writing, but NOT for the purpose of MATCHING any components.  You purchase AT YOUR OWN RISK!!!

So, if the nibs DON"T satisfy YOUR needs, no one ever promised you they WOULD!  

So, WHO absorbs this liability???

Had I bought them, they would have been marketed as the "branded" (and expensive) alternative.   I was unwilling to sell them without the feed sections, as I believe (I am NOT a nib expert) that the fit between the nib feed and the nib is important.  

But, in the end analysis, the responsible party would be ME.  In a group buy, the responsible party is CSUSA, quite a difference, really!


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## Texatdurango (Mar 31, 2010)

Ed I think where the big difference is between what you tried and what Jeremy is proposing is that you were wanting nibs and or sections to resell to pen makers using any of the hundreds of kits available and nib fit with these kits was surely a nightmare.  Looks like Jeremy is trying to buy a quantity of nibs for himself and is looking for others to jump in with him.  I think by now everyone realizes the IAP logo is off the table and we are talking good ole Bock nibs with their logos stamped. 

Judging by the poll so far, roughly 80% of those responding indicated they were interested in nibs/feeds/housings which may be telling us there are more folks than we realize like me who really could care less about nibs fitting kits or not, they just want some nice nibs/feeds/housings to make pens with.

I'm staying positive until we see some samples arrive and some pricing info is made available.  Judging from the poll and a few conversations I have had recently, having a dozen or two people ordering 50+ or 100+ nibs/feeds is not unrealistic in my book so I'm just going to sit back and see how things turn out, no sense in having the thread take a turn south on speculations.


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## ed4copies (Mar 31, 2010)

George,

24 people at 100 each doesn't get you HALF way there.


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## glycerine (Mar 31, 2010)

ed4copies said:


> George,
> 
> 24 people at 100 each doesn't get you HALF way there.


 
What I've been told so far by Bock is that the minumim order for steel nibs is 1,000.  I'm not sure if that is mixing and matching or they all must be the same type, but that should certainly be attainable by a handful of members...


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## glycerine (Mar 31, 2010)

ed4copies said:


> Here's the reason this is different from a "group buy": "the purpose intended". When you buy kits from CSUSA, Rizheng, or any other manufacturer, they are MADE for the purpose of creating a "handmade pen".
> 
> If you buy nibs from Bock, they are created for the purpose of writing, but NOT for the purpose of MATCHING any components. You purchase AT YOUR OWN RISK!!!
> 
> ...


 
Well, like I said, if the nibs fit certain kits, then all is well.  It will be made known what they fit and what they do not before anyone commits to buying.
If they do not fit and enough people are interested in purchasing the feeds and sections as well for kitless pens, then we'll go that route...


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## Texatdurango (Mar 31, 2010)

glycerine said:


> What I've been told so far by Bock is that the minumim order for steel nibs is 1,000. I'm not sure if that is mixing and matching or they all must be the same type, but that should certainly be attainable by a handful of members...


 
Ed's saying 2,400 nibs won't get us half way there, I'm hearing 1,000 minimum from you so I'll just wait for you to hear from them again to see what the scoop is.

If it is indeed 1000 minimum of each type of nib with no mix and matching, such as:

1,000 - type 250 fine tip
1,000 - type 250 med tip
1,000 - type 180 fine tip
1,000 - type 180 med tip

then we have a different situation than a minimum of 1,000 where we could possibly see 250 of each of the above plus several others.


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## glycerine (Apr 1, 2010)

Texatdurango said:


> Ed's saying 2,400 nibs won't get us half way there, I'm hearing 1,000 minimum from you so I'll just wait for you to hear from them again to see what the scoop is.
> 
> If it is indeed 1000 minimum of each type of nib with no mix and matching, such as:
> 
> ...


 
I heard back from Bock.  The MOQ of 1,000 is for each nib type.  
So if we want medium and fine or medium and extra fine in each size, we'd be looking at 4,000 pieces.
I was told I could order less, but the cost per unit would be significantly higher.  I got some pricing info as well, but I won't give out that info yet until I get the samples to see if this is even worth the pursuit.
But since we are now talking Bock branded nibs instead of custom stamped nibs, there's no up-front stamp cost and the price per nib sounds great IMHO.


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## glycerine (Apr 6, 2010)

I updated my post as well, but thought I should put the info here also:

Ok, I received some samples in the mail yesterday. The small nibs are the same size as the "Dayacom" branded nib that was in a jr. gent kit of mine as well as Lou's small nibs. So they will work well as replacement nibs for alot of the kits. I put one in my "daily use" pen and have been testing it out. So far, I'm impressed.
I only got samples of the type 180, I believe George asked for the 250 and will check those out for us.
I have some Bock feeds and a Bock section as well. Although the section is threaded the same as the jr. gent that I was toying with last night, the feed and section are longer than the kit. So the way I see it, we can either use the Bock nibs alone to replace the kit nibs, or purchase the triple or quad systems for kitless work.
More to come...


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## DCBluesman (Apr 6, 2010)

Any info on pricing?


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## glycerine (Apr 7, 2010)

DCBluesman said:


> Any info on pricing?


 
It's still being discussed, more to come on that...


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## DCBluesman (Apr 15, 2010)

Is this going anywhere or has it died?


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## glycerine (Apr 16, 2010)

Yes, it is still going somewhere, it has not died.  I'm out of town right now because of a family emergency.  But I will get back to it when I return.  Another IAP member also got some samples from Boch to do some comparing, so he and I will compile our efforts and go from there.  I believe so far, we know the nibs alone will work as replacements for the kits we have tried them with.  We're checking out the feeds and sections as well and trying to decide how to approach things so that we can cover the needs of the kitless folks as well.  
We're also getting info on gold nibs.  I believe the MOQ is much less than for steel nibs.  Haven't gotten pricing info yet.  We'll have to weigh interest and see whether we want to go for gold nibs as well or just steel...
What's your input on that, Lou?  I know you've probably got a good idea on gold nib interest if you want to share that info.  I understand if you don't though.


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## cloud (May 13, 2010)

Is there any new info?

I'be very interested for kitless work with these nibs. quad system


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## glycerine (May 14, 2010)

I will probably not be getting any quads. I think most kitless folks like to turn their own sections. I am still looking into getting nibs and triple systems. 
Essentially what I plan on getting is 4,000 nibs and 2,000 feeds/feed housings.
This would consist of 1000 small nibs with extra fine tip, 1000 small nibs with medium tip, 1000 large nibs with extra fine tip, 1000 large nibs with medium tip, 1000 small feeds/housings and 1000 large feeds/housings.
In order to cover most needs, I think this would be the best configuration, but this also makes the minimum order 4,000 pieces (2000 nibs, 2000 triple systems) and I don't know if there's enough interest to do this as a group buy.
I am still contemplating making the investment on my own and hoping to have enough interest from you guys to make it worth my time and money. It would be a substantial investment...


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## ldb2000 (May 14, 2010)

I think allot of people are holding off commiting until we hear some prices and a report on the tests of quality .


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## glycerine (May 17, 2010)

ldb2000 said:


> I think allot of people are holding off commiting until we hear some prices and a report on the tests of quality .


 
The samples that I received have been great.  I have a few steel nibs, so I cannot speak on the gold nibs, but also don't plan on ordering any gold nibs.  I have SOME pricing info.  They have been hard to pin down on certain questions.  I also need to figure out the international shipping charges.
Do we have any German IAP members???

Also, would you be interested in letting me send you one of the samples to try out and then maybe send it to a few others so we can get more of a concensus than just my opinion?


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## dow (Jul 14, 2010)

Checking back in to see if anything further has developed on this, since there aren't any posts since 5-17.


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## glycerine (Jul 15, 2010)

I've pretty much got all of the info that I need from Bock... but from the survey results, it appears that most are only interested in a handfull of nibs.  We would need a few "big spenders" in order to meet minimum order quantities, especially if we are trying to get small nibs, large nibs, medium, fine, extra fine, etc.
  I've contemplated just getting one size nib with one point on my own and then going from there.  If I were to do that, what would be the one nib that you would want?  I'm thinking the small nib size with an extra fine point.
  The one issue right now for me, even if I'm only purchasing 1,000 nibs is the money.  I recently bought a diamond for my wife and now I've still got to drop a few more grand on the actual ring!  (Long story, she lost her engagement ring over a year ago, so we decided to have a new one made.  We've been married for seven years, so I thought something a little bigger and better would be nice.  I was fresh out of college with no job when we got engaged, so her original ring was nothing extravagant)
  Anyway, I'm still contemplating what to do...


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## Daniel (Jul 15, 2010)

Just some thoughts from one who has done several group buys, including overseas.
FIrst of all the entire cost is very difficult to nail down. Usually the best shipping info you can get is a per kilo rate. knowing the actual weight of the shipped package is impossible to know. Remember they are used to dealing with people that the cost is what the cost is and you will price the nibs accordingly. not the other way around.

there are also import costs that can ding you for $100 here and $100 there.

In short do your best to put as much information together as you can. and make it perfectly clear that estimates are estimates, that costs are subject to change and that there may be unexpected costs that will be added to the price of the nibs.



I have found that if the members know what they are getting into with a ball park price group buys are still a deal they are wiling to take advantage of. the single worst example of incomplete information and poor performance was the leather pen case group buy. It was pretty much a complete disaster. but communication was the big key to keeping everyone friendly. I don't think the price got jacked up on anyone but everyone that spoke to me expected it could happen and was willing to take the hit. Most people simply wanted the cases to get here at all.

I will also say that an overseas group buy is no way to cut your teeth. Group buys at best are difficult to manage. Overseas ones are ten times as difficult and risky as all get out. I did back up everyones investment but it was money from past group buys I did it with. I lost all that money on the pen case buy.

Just be very careful and tell folks the way it is. Don't drive yourself crazy trying to make all news good news. These crusty old farts take bad news pretty well if you just tell them up front.


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## dow (Jul 15, 2010)

glycerine said:


> I've pretty much got all of the info that I need from Bock... but from the survey results, it appears that most are only interested in a handfull of nibs.  We would need a few "big spenders" in order to meet minimum order quantities, especially if we are trying to get small nibs, large nibs, medium, fine, extra fine, etc.
> I've contemplated just getting one size nib with one point on my own and then going from there.  If I were to do that, what would be the one nib that you would want?  I'm thinking the small nib size with an extra fine point.


That would probably work.  The only nibs that I've got experience with are the mediums that come with the kits and the steel ones from Lou (fine and medium)  How do the Bock extra fines compare to Lou's fines?  


> The one issue right now for me, even if I'm only purchasing 1,000 nibs is the money.


If you don't mind my asking, how much money are we talking about for 1,000 nibs in a single size and grind?


> I recently bought a diamond for my wife and now I've still got to drop a few more grand on the actual ring!  (Long story, she lost her engagement ring over a year ago, so we decided to have a new one made.  We've been married for seven years, so I thought something a little bigger and better would be nice.  I was fresh out of college with no job when we got engaged, so her original ring was nothing extravagant)
> Anyway, I'm still contemplating what to do...


Well, the ring certainly takes precedence over the nibs, especially if your wife is anywhere close to as good a woman and friend as mine is.


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