# Supercilious Pain in the Nether Regions Post (Caut



## wdcav1952 (Feb 20, 2008)

Thanks to R2 for providing the title for this post.  From one occasionally good bloke to another, I appreciate his input.

A former adversary on this site whom I  now call a cyber-friend asked me about my forays into corrections with regards to spelling and grammar.  Once I explained my thoughts on the subject, this person suggested that I explain my rationale in a post.  Although I delayed the post, I was inspired to post this due to the ill-will I received  from some members engendered by my posting with respect to Armacielliâ€™s post.  First off, unlike some members, I only claim to speak for myself rather than the entire group.  Second, if I offend Armacielli by using his post to illustrate my reasoning, I apologize without reservation.

Armacielli identified himself as a college student, and in an earlier post identified himself as a Forensic Science student.  Now I understand that television shows do not imitate reality to any great extent.  However, I do believe that a forensic report submitted to a court with numerous mistakes would not be helpful to the DAâ€™s case.  Christian stated that he had a disabling health event at an early age.  If so, he is to be congratulated for recovering and showing the determination to make it to college and being accepted into a demanding course of study.  Also, if I unknowingly teased him without any knowledge of the issue, I again apologize.  Still, Christian likely knows better than most that he has to produce excellent work to succeed in his chosen field of study.  OK, enough picking on Armacielli.

A number of people here are interested in selling their pens.  On occasion, this will involve presenting a bid, talking to the person who possibly could be ordering a significant number of pens, or other interactions with potential customers.  I will have to ask you to trust me on this one; there are people out there who pay attention to the details of business.  I have been given resumes turned in on torn out spiral notebook paper written in ballpoint ink.  I do not think I am the only employer who chose to discard a resume such as this.  I also do not think I am the only person who believes that you should be able to spell the name of the pens you are marketing.  Trust me, there are people out there who know how to spell Emperor.

What on earth does this have to do with pen turning?  Most of us spend an inordinate amount of time turning our pens, checking our results with a caliper, sanding and micro meshing to a near-perfect surface, and finishing to the longest lasting highest shining finish we can achieve.  Would you show up to present your pens in a torn turning smock with wood shavings in your eyebrows?  My question is this: Why not show the same care in your use of the English language in your presentations?

To return to R2's question, if I tried to correct all syntax, grammatical or spelling errors I would have the highest posts count possible to achieve.  I try in my own way, perhaps gratingly at times, to occasionally point out errors in hopes of inspiring someone out there to improve their way of presenting themselves to others.  Is it fair that some employers and/or buyers judge you by your appearance and manner of speaking?  In a word, no.  Does it happen?  Of course it does, and it always will.  So, just like many of us are constantly striving to improve our pens, well you get the idea. 

As noted above, I speak only for myself, and do not claim to express the opinions of others.


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## CaptG (Feb 20, 2008)

Well said, duly noted, and keep up the good work.


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## rjwolfe3 (Feb 20, 2008)

Very well spoken.  I agree with what you say and please feel free to correct anything that I write.  I sometimes type way too fast and don't proofread before posting.[]


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## GBusardo (Feb 20, 2008)

Cav,  I can appreciate your post and its good intentions.  My best friend (and his 17 year old daughter) used to continually try and correct my grammar.  They both gave up! I am what I am. Has this hurt me financially? I am sure it has.  I can turn a screwdriver, troubleshoot a circuit, check a 90 degree angle by eye and do other mechanical things my intellectually superior best friend could not possible do. We graduated high school together way back in 1974. He graduated number 4 and me, 781 out of about 1000. I drove him crazy and he drove me crazy.  Whatâ€™s the   point of all this?  I cannot change him, he cannot change me, but we still enjoy each others company after all these years.


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## gerryr (Feb 20, 2008)

Kud u bile thet down to five wirds???????????[}]


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## gerryr (Feb 20, 2008)

OK, I had to do that and because Cav is a friend he knows how it was meant.  I agree completely with what you said.  There have been times in the past couple of years when I couldn't even figure out what the poster was talking about because of typos and bad grammar.


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## IPD_Mrs (Feb 20, 2008)

Cav,
Being spelling and grammar challenged, at times I struggle in the forum.  Being corrected for the most part is appreciated and at times it is fun.  There is a fine line where people can feel picked on and I am sure at times humiliated.  Being correct in spelling and grammar does nothing to show the personality behind the words.  With you and I, as the saying goes no blood no foul.  But when people do not know the personality and intent feelings can get hurt.  At the same time for those that have a great command of the English language can probably find my rambling to be just as frustrating.

Is there a solution?  People should not take things personally until they know the intent or personality behind the words.  Many of us know someone that is known for hard cutting words.  The funny part about that is once I got to know the person and personality behind the words I found that the blunt words were just that, someone calling a spade a spade as they see it and no malice was meant.

What is all my rambling about?  Simple, people try to ready too much into things and have thin skin and take offence to things that are not meant as it was perceived.  In other word chill out and enjoy the forum!

Oh and Cav, nice note even for a dentist![:0]

Mike


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## maxwell_smart007 (Feb 20, 2008)

> _Originally posted by wdcav1952_
> 
> Although I delayed the post, I was inspired to post this due to the ill-will I received  from some members engendered by my posting with respect to Armacielliâ€™s post.



I agree completely with your sentiments, Cav.  I have a question for you, however.  What does 'engendered' mean? (I'm being serious - it's sometimes difficult to tell tone on a posting, so I thought it best to make that clear)

My definition of 'engendered' doesn't fit your usage - can you give me a synonym?  Seems like a good 'word of the day' to learn!  

(And for those of you who don't try a word-of-the-day, I suggest you try it - or at least a word-of-the-week!  My class and I certainly had fun with it!)


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## GoodTurns (Feb 21, 2008)

Just a follow-up on Cav's posting.  Grammar and spelling are incredibly important when applying for one of those job things. I personally pitch any cover letter/resume that makes me cringe!  Proper use and attention to details in your presentation will directly affect how you are perceived and what people will think you are capable of doing.  Please do take it seriously!

I'm just glad their is never been nothing for Cav to get after me for!


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## R2 (Feb 21, 2008)

Cav I really do appreciate what you have had the courage to say and I am grateful that you apologised to Armacielli.

 As a teacher I fully recognise the importance of spelling and grammar and take personal care with what and how I write. However, no matter what the critics may say there are people, even intelligent people, who because of the influences in their lives find spelling and grammar difficult,

 I think I may have mentioned in another posting that all people learn their mother tongue, first and foremost in the home, and then later through the influences of common community usage. School should at least try to bring all children to an understanding of standard rules and accepted usage. It doesn't always happen. In some cases the influence of family and community is so strong that no amount of rule learning will overcome "incorrect usage".

 There are of course, other problems people have with language. Being a non- native speaker is perhaps the best example. Neurological insult is another.
In my case I have suffered some hypoxia as a result of surgery. I try hard to be vigilant but sometimes I just have mental blocks and things slip through. (Eyehpoe tnghis getbteer)

 I am not making excuses for cases where accepted standards are not met. I do, however, believe that an understanding of language acquisition and some tolerance towards mistakes is needed.


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## karlkuehn (Feb 21, 2008)

Well said, Cav. I wouldn't buy anything in a jewelry store that had typos and grammatical errors on the box. Anyone looking to buy a high end pen falls into two categories:

1) People who don't care about grammar/spelling/context/etc., so there's no harm in making sure that the presentation is well-worded.
2) People who _do_ care about grammar/spelling/context/etc., and those are going to be lost sales.

Now, as far as everyday conversation, errors irritate me personally, but that's just me, and I make my share of them so I have no room to talk. I think that as long as a person is at least making an effort to learn, they'll get better eventually, but there's always going to be a learning curve that may never straighten out.

The best writers and authors I can think of still rely on editors and proofreaders, otherwise they'd never publish anything, and none of us has the luxury of having a staff to catch a boo boo. At least paying attention to the inline spell checker here can keep most people out of trouble, although contextually, 'can have you bunch of a context words out of', and the red squiggly lines won't save you. Yoda could type here all day and nothing would seem amiss. 

Maybe a good solution would be to enable the red squiggly lines in the _posted_ message, rather than just the input boxes used while creating a post. That way when someone posts an error, it's there in the public eye for all to see, and the person might be more inclined to edit the mistake. heh...that'd take some pressure off Cav! Anyone who actually leaves a word misspelled would then be fair game for a good word nerd thrashing. []


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## OKLAHOMAN (Feb 21, 2008)

Cav ha<s>d</s>s corrected me <s>several </s> many times and I never <s>tokk a fence</s>thought he was mean cause him still my favoritr prisen dentest.


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## OKLAHOMAN (Feb 21, 2008)

Now that the foolishness is out of the way,I was reared in a house that spoke 4 languages,my dads english was very broken but his Spanish and Italian were beautiful,my mom had the thickest New York Jewish accent you could have and both sets of grandparents spoke no english.This is not an excuse its just the fact that I picked up bad habits early in life.Environment has a lot to do with some of our grammar and spelling.Cav I consider us friends so you go right ahead and continue to correct my spelling and grammar,at my age I'm still learning every day.


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## leehljp (Feb 21, 2008)

I fully agree with you Cav. However, I have become somewhat of a hypocrite in my criticism of bad English, spoken or written. I was fairly good at one time. I used to correct my English teachers in HS and even college back in the mid '60s (I could prove it and I was a little arrogant too) and could diagram sentences with the best. 

Having been in Japan for 23 plus years and fairly fluent here, it is hard for me to speak in English as fluently as I did pre-Japan. It is hard for me to construct sentences verbally and orally as I did in my younger days. The correct words just don't come to mind at the instant they are needed. There have been several times that I did not post something I started because suddenly I could not remember the correct word. At times it works, at times it doesn't. 

This is not peculiar to me either. Many of my now retired co-workers warned me of this some years ago. Part of the problem is that we often intermix our work language with our native language. It is much easier to say "mikan" than "tangerine" or "eki" than "train station" in every day conversation even in English.

The grammar syntax of Japanese, or other languages for that matter, become ingrained to the point that natural usage of native languages become affected. Many people from different churches that I visit when Stateside comment that my wife and I are interesting and great speakers for missionaries. The point behind this is that many people who reside in other cultures very long see a decrease in native language ability. What makes it strange is that understanding the nuances of the native language are easy and this is noted by people; but the problem is that we can't always speak and write as well in our native language as we can understand. This often produces a puzzlement to others who observe this conundrum.  

It is frustrating at times knowing that I know something is not quite right, but I just can't figure what it is or do anything about it - so I just give up and do nothing. 

Even in other languages, these problems exist. The Osaka dialect is considered by other Japanese to be the laughing stock of Japanese dialects. However, the Osaka area people communicate much more effectively than those with perfect grammar and intonations. (That was learned from 14 years of experience in living there.)

I realize that some people don't care and some are just ignorant, but some do, some want to learn and some try hard. I appreciate your striving to help. I also hope others take it in this light.


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## wdcav1952 (Feb 21, 2008)

> _Originally posted by maxwell_smart007_
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Andrew, as well as the others who have posted on this thread, thank you for taking the time to post. (Even Roy and Gerry.  )  Andrew, your comment that tone is difficult to tell from the written posting is an excellent point.  From Dictionary.com I got this definition for engendered:

v.   tr. 

1. To bring into existence; give rise to: "Every cloud engenders not a storm" (Shakespeare).

2. To procreate; propagate. 

v.   intr. 
To come into existence; originate. 

Although perhaps an awkward word choice, I believe it fits.

Lee, as I do not speak a second language, I was totally unaware of the points you raised, and find them to be fascinating.

Karl, your two points summarized my entire post with a LOT less reading.  Thanks for saving reading time!  

Again, whether people agree with me or not, thanks to all who took the time to post as well as those who took the time to read.


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## Dario (Feb 21, 2008)

> _Originally posted by leehljp_
> 
> What makes it strange is that understanding the nuances of the native language are easy and this is noted by people; but the problem is that we can't always speak and write as well in our native language as we can understand. This often produces a puzzlement to others who observe this conundrum.



Good post Cav.

I agree with Hank 100% especially the quoted part above.  I've observed this to be true even in my native land (Philippines).  I actually can write better in English than Tagalog/Filipino.  I speak well, but my written local language (Tagalog) is plain awful!  I figure the same is true with some "local" Americans.

You may not believe it but the official instructional language in the Philippines is English.  We have more English subjects than Filipino (from elementary to college).  Students are (in a way) forced to learn it "properly" though I struggled with it and some of my lowest grades are in my English subjects.

I think some people take their language for granted sometimes (I am guilty of this too).  Once they can communicate, they accept that as sufficient enough and not strive to perfect it.

Again, these are just my thoughts.  No study to support it and I am not an expert.


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## cutterwoodjoe (Feb 21, 2008)

> _
> 
> Again, whether people agree with me or not, thanks to all who took the time to post as well as those who took the time to read.
> 
> _


_
Cav,
I read just fine and enjoy it, but I was too ascared to comment _


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## drpelton (Feb 21, 2008)

Cav,

What a great thought.  I happened to stumble on this thread and found it fascinating.  I always enjoy your "corrections," as I am a former English Education major in college.  I gave it up to enter the high paying field of Law Enforcement/U.S. Military (I know, what DO I do with all that money?)  I am a firm believer that a well written document will receive much more attention and credibility than a poorly written one.  In my line of work, however, I am forced, almost daily, to acquiesce to the institutional writing "style" of my job and give up on the rules of modern English.  It is frustrating, and I have at times argued with persons of superior position.  I usually loose such arguments, but at least I fight the battle.  
I also currently work in a multi-lingual area (I'm stationed in Germany) and have to have things translated back and forth from English and German.  I know that it can be quite difficult.
All that being said, I have never come across a person who corrected grammer et al like Cav does who does it maliciously.  When either myself or a co-worker get involved in a "language discussion," it is usually in good fun.  
Thanks all, and thanks for this wonderful forum where we all can learn so much besides just how to turn wood into dust!

Don


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## Monty (Feb 21, 2008)

Cav, very interesting and enlightening post. I agree with all that has been said, that the way we talk and speak has a great influence on the way we are perceived by others.  I must confess that my fingers get tangled in the keyboard and I don't always proof what I have typed before I post so I figure I'm fair game.
Along the same line, something that grates on me here lately are some of the "new" words that are being used daily, such as "signage" and "functionality". If these are truly the correct form instead of sign and function, would someone please enlighten me.


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## Chasper (Feb 21, 2008)

Cav,
Thanks for the explanation of your position on written grammar and communication skills.  More importantly, thanks for your tireless efforts to improve the writing quality of the messages that are posted here, and by extension of that effort, to improve the overall quality of how pen makers communicate with potential customers.  Possibly I'm reading too much into your previous posts, but it is my observation that you take some pleasure in your avocation of promoting linguistic excellence; especially when you find the not infrequent opportunity to correct Ed. 

Before becoming a copywriter, editor, and senior executive in the printing and publishing industry, I was a failed English teacher.  I welcome your corrections to my posts.  I pledge to be as precise in my IAP message writing as I would be in my opening letter of an annual report.  No, not really, I'm just exaggerating for effect.  I'll still make frequent perfunctory errors.

Your mission of convincing pen turners to be as careful with the details of their language as they are with the details of crafting pens is laudable.  A well crafted and creative sales message envisages a innovative and well made pen; quality begets quality.


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## DCBluesman (Feb 21, 2008)

From the title, I thought this was a thread about me.  Fortunately, it was a well-crafted set of observations for each of us to consider.  Thanks, William (for it not being about me!). [8D]


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## wudnhed (Feb 21, 2008)

> _Originally posted by MLKWoodWorking_
> 
> Cav,
> 
> ...



I totally agree with you Mike.  When I joined this group I lurked for a while.  Not only was I trying to soak in all the great penturning info, I was also trying to "get to know" the different personalities on the site.  Anyone who reads thru the site can see that William, Al, Ed and sometimes even Lou [}] among many others have great personalities and wouldn't intentionally hurt anyone's feelings.  You might also consider, sometimes people are just having a bad day and may post or read into something that normally they wouldn't.  

William, I'm glad you made this post.  I have felt its been bothering you for a while.  You can correct me anytime my friend and there will be no offense taken by me, Lord knows I need it[]


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## Russianwolf (Feb 21, 2008)

I know what Lee is talking about. I'm fluent in Russian. And while I don't use it every day, the effects are appearant in my life.

I can't write in cursive in English to save my life. And I can't print worth a damn in Russian. It's like a portion of my brain has said "okay, we'll let you do Russian in cursive and English in print, but that's it. No switching." I can read both ways fine in both languages.

Also, speaking multiple languages, you find words that fit situations better and if you aren't careful, you start using them all in one sentence even though the languages are different.


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## Russianwolf (Feb 21, 2008)

> Originally posted by Dario
> Good post Cav.
> 
> I agree with Hank 100% especially the quoted part above.  I've observed this to be true even in my native land (Philippines).  I actually can write better in English than Tagalog/Filipino.  I speak well, but my written local language (Tagalog) is plain awful!  I figure the same is true with some "local" Americans.
> ...


Not sure of your age Dario, But the education in the Philippines has appearently changed over the year. My wife and daughter are both Pinays (I think that's the right word). My wife's education was mostly in English (1960-70's). My daughter's (who was there for a year or so in her teens) education was almost entirely Tagalog (2006). She would come home with headaches from trying to keep up with what was being said (and she was fluent at the time).

I only know a couple words and phrases.


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## jwoodwright (Feb 21, 2008)

What a great post!  

After reading all, I came to the conclusion that I like most, type and send... [:0]

I'll now attempt to proof...[:I]


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## ed4copies (Feb 21, 2008)

Cav,

As you know, your corrections are always welcome (even when misdirected)

I have learned to ignore YOURS.  But, then, I am a much more generous reader than you.

Seriously, thanks to all who have supported Cav.  And to those who disagree, we hope to respect your right to appear stupid.  Ain't America grate????


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## Mudder (Feb 21, 2008)

Good post;

I've often been told that my command of the English language is lacking at best.
I wish I had studied harder in English class instead of ogling the pretty girl that usually sat next to me. I try, to be correct but I'm not always successful and I don't mind being corrected. I already know of two major faults. My sentences tend to run on and on with no structure. And, I, tend, to, use, way, too, many, comma's, in, my, sentences.  (note to self: Let's see if this one pushes him over the edge).

Of course this is all tongue-in-cheek because I consider Cav a "cyber-friend" and I know he can take some light hearted ribbing.


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## fiferb (Feb 21, 2008)

Cav, great post and well put. I've been fighting the same battle with my son. He has the worst spelling and grammar from any college graduate I've ever seen. I attribute it to one of his elementary school teachers that told us she doesn't worry about spelling, "computer spell checkers will take care of that". Now as an Army Officer I'm afraid it may hurt his career. Only time will tell.


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## Monty (Feb 21, 2008)

> _Originally posted by ed4copies_
> 
> ....  Ain't America grate????


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## Dario (Feb 21, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Russianwolf_
> 
> 
> 
> ...




"Pinay" is a shortcut for Filipina and it is a common, accepted word.

I am not sure when the change happened but I moved here in 1991 and English was still the medium of instruction then.  LOML graduated 1996 and it was still English.

It is possibly done by politicians to drum up nationality.  While there is nothing wrong with that, I believe that being fluent in English helps a lot when you go after "international" job opportunities.  Sadly, Philippines' main "export" is manpower and finding jobs locally there is almost near impossible if you are not "connected" or really exceptional.  In this case they just took away a possible edge of the new graduates to compete outside.  right or wrong move depends on how you look at it.


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## Ron in Drums PA (Feb 21, 2008)

Here's my take William.

In my business a single misspelled word can ruin a job worth a few thousand dollars. So, when I'm at work, I take extra ordinary care to make sure that not only is every word spelled correctly but that every sentence is grammatically correct.

But, when Iâ€™m typing a reply on a forum, Iâ€™m thinking faster than my finger can type. This, coupled with the fact, that this Chinese keyboard still has not learned to type what I think has caused me a great many problems. Iâ€™ll give you an example, in the first sentence of this paragraph the word finger should really be plural.   

_Disclaimer: All grammatical usage, unique forms of spelling and punctuation, is considered this ownerâ€™s artistic license is the sole property of this writer and may not be used without due compensation._


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## ed4copies (Feb 21, 2008)

Ron,

I fingered you were just a "one-fingered typist".  I've seen some of them that were AMAZING!!!


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## PR_Princess (Feb 21, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Ron in Drums PA_
> 
> _Disclaimer: All grammatical usage, unique forms of spelling and punctuation, is considered this ownerâ€™s artistic license is the sole property of this writer and may not be used without due compensation._



ROTFLMAO.. I must already be very deep in hock to you Ron! [B)]


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## wdcav1952 (Feb 21, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Ron in Drums PA_
> 
> Here's my take William.
> 
> ...



Ron, having seen your work in person and having been very patiently taught some bowl turning techniques by you, you have a permanent free pass on any corrections.


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## ed4copies (Feb 21, 2008)

WOW, I didn't know Cav was working on CHARGING for his corrections!!!!


Geeze, I don't think they are WORTH MUCH!!!!

(In fact, a few members have mentioned "worthless", but I don't know "less than what???")


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## Ron in Drums PA (Feb 21, 2008)

Ed

We have the market cornered, you either pay Cav for the corrections or pay me for the usage.


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## ed4copies (Feb 21, 2008)

As I am certain you know, Ron,

The average "Corner Market" has not done well, in the past four decades or so!!


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## Armacielli (Feb 21, 2008)

Irony of the situation is that I'm the first one (especially when I was in High school) to point out a misused word. My mother is notorious for using "lay" in leiu of "lie", and every time she does I let her know. My Sr year of HS my Writing and Composition class had a jar where every time someone made a grammatic error the offender had to donate $.25 to the jar. B/c the class would decide how the collected funds would be used at the end of the year everyone was on the lookout for the slightest slip of the tongue. Eventually everything we learned was used to correct every violating member of the student body. So I'm no less guilty of grammar correction than you(but more in speach than in written form).

but I digress. I'm all about flawless fluency at school, and it's quite stressful. I knew I had made the majority of those mistakes as I made them, but I chose not to correct them b/c I come here to relax, not stress about my spelling. I even thought "I would call myself out on that post." as I posted it.

As stated, intended tone is hard to determine from the written word. Had a buddy of mine made the same comment in your intended tone. I'd have given him a playful jab in the shoulder. I misread your intentions, and from now on I shall take your comments with the appropriate quantity of salt
( consider this a playful jab on the shoulder)

Regarding my "debilitating health event" it is really a much smaller deal than it sounds. While it is indeed a miracle that I've recovered so well, I doubt I could find anyone who could tell that I've had any health problems w/o prior knowledge. As of now, the very very slightly diminshed mobility of the left hand is the only residual effect.the better side of having a brain tumor is that the state of Ohio sees it as a disabily and pays a very healthy portion of my tuition

So in conclusion, Cav, no harm done.


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## wdcav1952 (Feb 21, 2008)

Christian, your post certainly takes the high road.  Peace to you, and a belated welcome to the group.


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## TellicoTurning (Feb 21, 2008)

Cav,
I've read through this thread with great interest... I've always gotten a kick out of your "corrections" and the ribbing returned from the "Correctee" or in some cases not so much ribbing.  

When I graduated from high school some 48 years ago, you could have all the answers correct on an exam, and because of mispelled words or bad grammer, you could still not get a passing grade.  It was a small high school, but the English language was considered very important.  I learned to type on the old mechanical typewriters, so that when I went into the Navy and began to work in the communication field, it was imperative that we type correctly... often I would have to retype on teletype, a five letter code group message.. this was a message that conisted of 5 random letters, space, 5 random letters, etc.. across the line for 10 groupings, then return and repeat... one letter typed incorrectly and the message could not be decrypted.  These messages could be up to 5 pages long, first page of 10 lines, second through fifth up to 20 lines per page.. I learned to feel a mistyped letter and still do today.  

Chris mentioned that his mother often uses lay in lieu of lie... my mother was valdictorian in her high school in 1936, but her use of the English language has always been painful for me.  

Hopefully, I can stay out of the line of your sights with my spelling and diction, but if not, I'll take your corrections with a sense of humor.


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## turned_for_good (Feb 21, 2008)

Cav, its apparent now that you are a business owner or in charge of hiring.  You mentiond about peoples resumes and how others percieve people.  This hits me very true and this is one of my pet peves after being in printing for about 10 years now.  I can not tell you how many times I have had to copy those stupid resumes hand written on plain paper, sometimes lined.  I try my hardest to convince them to at least type it out.  The other thing is the people who have a wonderfull resume but refuse to spend the extra 7 cents to get it copied on a nice linen paper, somthing besides 20lb. bond.  My resume is of course done professionally and on 100% watermarked linen.  I even go as far as to make sure that the watermark is contained fully on the paper and preferaably twords the lower middle.


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## Russianwolf (Feb 21, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Dario_
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Dario, I've been corrected by SWMBO. Appearently I have several GLARING errors to her eyes. First, my daughter was in school there in 1997-1998, not 2006 (so I was off by 10 years). Secondly, the classes were in fact conducted in English, but the students were allowed to speak tagalog outside of class. Whereas during her time in school this was not allowed (students were fined for speaking tagalog). They both attended a Catholic school and it was appearently much more strict during her "incarceration".


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## alamocdc (Feb 21, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Armacielli_
> 
> ...(but more in speach than in written form).



Uuhh... Christian, shouldn't that be "speech"?[}]

Sorry, just couldn't resist.[:I]


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## ed4copies (Feb 22, 2008)

> _Originally posted by turned_for_good_
> 
> Cav, its apparent now that you are a business owner or in charge of hiring.  You mentiond(mentioned) about peoples (people's) resumes and how others percieve (i befroe E, EXCEPT after C-perceive) people.  This hits me very true and this is one of my pet peves (peeves)after being in printing for about 10 years now.  I can not tell you how many times I have had to copy those stupid resumes hand written on plain paper, sometimes lined.  I try my hardest to convince them to at least type it out.  The other thing is the people who have a wonderfull(wonderful) resume but refuse to spend the extra 7 cents to get it copied on a nice linen paper, somthing (something)besides 20lb. bond.  My resume is of course done professionally and on 100% watermarked linen.  I even go as far as to make sure that the watermark is contained fully on the paper and preferaably twords (preferably, towards) the lower middle.



I think you show very good judgment in having your resume' professionally prepared!!!!

Cav would have done this for you, but he's a little "laid back" this week.  The real Cav shall return soon - we hope!!!!!


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## turned_for_good (Feb 22, 2008)

> I think you show very good judgment in having your resume' professionally prepared!!!!
> 
> Cav would have done this for you, but he's a little "laid back" this week.  The real Cav shall return soon - we hope!!!!!



Yea, I can't say as I'm the best speller around, I have come to rely on the spell check in software too much.  When I write a letter I do have one of the best spelling and grammer checkers around.  I'll have to admit it's my mother, but she got her fisrt job in printing buy simply mailing the local newspaper back to them with all the corrections and typos circled on the fornt page.  That was around 35-40 years ago and shes only gotten better.  I myself and more of a printer than a layout person.


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## Tuba707 (Feb 22, 2008)

Wow, I have never seen so many typo-free (or at least typo-reduced) posts in a thread here.  Good work, Cav


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## wdcav1952 (Feb 22, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Tuba707_
> 
> Wow, I have never seen so many typo-free (or at least typo-reduced) posts in a thread here.  Good work, Cav



Thanks Joel.  It's a dirty job, but someone has to do it.  Did you notice I even have a couple of apprentice proofreaders hard at work for me?


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## IPD_Mrs (Feb 22, 2008)

> _Originally posted by GoodTurns_
> 
> Just a follow-up on Cav's posting.  Grammar and spelling are incredibly important when applying for one of those job things. I personally pitch any cover letter/resume that makes me cringe!  Proper use and attention to details in your presentation will directly affect how you are perceived and what people will think you are capable of doing.  Please do take it seriously!
> 
> I'm just glad their is never been nothing for Cav to get after me for!



Lucky you ... 

My company requires that each application be kept for a set period of time.  I, and the manager of our residential program whose office is next to mine, circle all grammatical and spelling errors in the cover letter and turn them back in marked "This individual will not be considered."  Nuff said!

[:X] Mrs.


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## wdcav1952 (Feb 23, 2008)

> _Originally posted by MLKWoodWorking_
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Actually, the correct spelling is Enough.  The two word sentence fragment should be revised into a complete sentence for formal communications. [}]


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## Dario (Feb 23, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Russianwolf_
> 
> 
> Dario, I've been corrected by SWMBO. Appearently I have several GLARING errors to her eyes. First, my daughter was in school there in 1997-1998, not 2006 (so I was off by 10 years). Secondly, the classes were in fact conducted in English, but the students were allowed to speak tagalog outside of class. Whereas during her time in school this was not allowed (students were fined for speaking tagalog). They both attended a Catholic school and it was appearently much more strict during her "incarceration".



Mike,

Rules vary from school to school.  Most (if not all) that I know of actually allow  students to speak in Tagalog after each class.  She must have attended a very expensive one.  Even University of the Philippines don't restrict Tagalog after each class.


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## skiprat (Feb 23, 2008)

> _Originally posted by ed4copies_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


_

... or when the sound is 'ay' [)]

eg. Weigh, Deity.  Many other exceptions too like 'vacancies' or 'science'

My spelling isn't great either, but some simple spoken words have got the better of me since I was a kid and I still can't shake them.[:I]

I always say ' fieth' instead on 'thief' and 'throf' instead of 'froth'

A lot depends where you come from too, I think.  
Using Cav's original post as an example, ( I wouldn't dare pick on Cav, but think he won't mind) I wouldn't have used the 'comma' before the 'and' unless there was any doubt to the meaning of the sentence. 
I also would try to not use the same word more than once in the same sentence. Cav used 'post' several times. Although the sentence is correct, I had to read it twice to understand it.

Sorry Cav, please don't beat me up!!!!

BTW, what does (Caut mean?[}]_


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## Daniel (Feb 23, 2008)

Bill, I will totaly agree with you, when I am applying for a job, trying to sell my pens, or making a presentation. And yes I have done all of them. But that is not what I am doing here. I am relaxing and enjoying the company of people with common interests. that is making pens not polishing my image. I will set around the house watching movies in my pajames, but will not go out in public that way. If suit and tie is what works for you as casual wear, by all means wear it. I will stick to my blue jeans and t shirt.


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## skiprat (Feb 23, 2008)

> _Originally posted by ed4copies_
> [br)  (i *befroe* E, EXCEPT after C-perceive)



I wonder how to pronounce that new word[?]


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## DCBluesman (Feb 23, 2008)

We pronounce it bee-foe.  The r is silent.


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## wdcav1952 (Feb 23, 2008)

Two answers in one post.

Skippy, I have to agree that the word post was overused.  I perhaps should have thrown in an occasional "epistle". 

As regards the Caut, it was supposed to be (Caution, long and boring post).  The software of the site just got tired of my long title and quit. 

Daniel, a few things come to mind. First, you have a name that is often abbreviated and you choose to sign as Daniel.  To me this should indicate that you comprehend the idea that people display their name as they wish it to be used.  If this is unintelligible to you, I will be more than happy to explain it further.

Second, I decided to take you at your word and clicked on your website.  Obviously you chose to wear your pajamas while composing your site.  Even though I haven't worn a suit and tie for the last few years, I rapidly burned out trying to count grammatical and construction errors.

Third, lest this be taken as an unfair attack on Daniel, I use it to make my original point.  If you get in the habit of using the English language correctly, you won't butcher it when you try to use it in a formal manner.


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## Jarheaded (Feb 23, 2008)

Como este?


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## R2 (Feb 23, 2008)

I wonder about  Cav's use in the above post of First, Second and Third to enumerate his points. I was taught to use Firstly, Secondly and Thirdly. In other words an adverb is used instead of Cav's adjective.
Our own particular use of grammar is a matter of what we learnt as our "mother tongue" and what we were taught as being correct in a more formal manner at school. 
Exactly where do we draw the line with correctness? If we are really pedantic, as some of our our forumites indicate they are, then some applicants for jobs would never get a start, no matter how qualified or how competent they are. As an example I give you the case of migrants. Would a Brit or an Australian applying for a position in America be not considered because they use their countries' spelling in an application? 

A little test, from which Cav is excluded. I would like you to answer this without recourse to the consultation of books.
 What is the error in the following sentence and why?
 Pardon me being helpful.


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## Jarheaded (Feb 23, 2008)

Would it be-- Pardon me for attempting to be helpful?


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## ed4copies (Feb 23, 2008)

What you are pointing out R2, perhaps inadvertently, is the fact that there are differences between American, Australian and British.

To which verb would your adverbs "firstly, secondly and thirdly" be referring?

In American, listing by number is so widely accepted, it is programmed into Microsoft Word.  You'd have to ask the Brits whether the Queen would approve.

In answer to your final query, your "sentence" is awkward.  "Pardon me for being helpful" or "Pardon me, I was being helpful". As far as referencing the exact rules of grammar - I'm afraid those don't flow through my veins as they did when I was taking the SAT test in the mid 1960's.  More surprisingly, I can't tell you the "long way" to find a square root, since the advent of the computer made the "mechanics" unneccesary.  However, I can tell you the square root of 9 is still 3, no matter what method we use to get there.

Would that all questions had only ONE CORRECT answer - but they don't!
The American language changes yearly as more words are entered into our dictionaries, because of common use.  

When I was in school, there was no "AWESOME" - Can you believe we managed to speak without it????


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## PR_Princess (Feb 23, 2008)

> _Originally posted by ed4copies_
> 
> 
> When I was in school, there was no "AWESOME" - Can you believe we managed to speak without it????



Ed you mean to tell me there was _*language*_ when you were in school???? [:0][:0][:0]


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## palmermethod (Feb 23, 2008)

"f u cn rd ths u cn gt a gd job"
Used to be an add on the back of matchbooks. For shorthand note taking. There is something to be said about understanding the message rather than how well it was punctuated.


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## DCBluesman (Feb 23, 2008)

I interview folks regularly as part of my job.  If the resume isn't professionally written, including grammar and spelling, I tell the candidate that they will be considered when they can present themselves professionally.  

When I visit a website and am looking for a professional, I expect their site to reflect their attention to detail.  Lack of attention on the website indicates that their may also be a lack of attention to my needs.  While I may be able to understand the intent of the communicator, English (my native tongue) is a language which is becoming more precise, not less so.  Lack of precision is an indicator of how seriously someone wants to be taken.  

On a forum, like this, I often overlook the misspellings and incorrect word usage, but that is a conscious effort.  I see the errors; I just don't point them out.  It's my laziness that keeps me from helping others in this area.  William takes his time to inject a little education with a fair share of humor and light-heartedness.  I, for one, appreciate it.  

Most folks here appreciate help with their turning, finishing, photography and more.  Should we feel any different about someone offering assistance with language?  As for the numerous languages spoken by folks on the forum, if there is a topic which is linguistically specific to other than your primary language, or if you find that such correction bothers you, might I suggest you move along to another post?  We have hundreds of posts per day and sometimes thousands.  Skipping a couple is not likely to cause any of us to lose sleep.


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## OKLAHOMAN (Feb 23, 2008)

Not really Dawn,don't let him kid you unless you count Hieroglyphics.[}].





> _Originally posted by PR_Princess_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## IPD_Mrs (Feb 23, 2008)

> _Originally posted by wdcav1952_
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Hey goofball - ever heard of intentional misuse .. creative license .. etc etc .. 





Why don't you go write a book or do something useful 

[:X] Mrs.


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## IPD_Mrs (Feb 23, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Jarheaded_
> 
> Como este?



El orador no lo hace correctamente.


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## loglugger (Feb 23, 2008)

I have been following this post and am a little bit bothered by how the new people that are just starting pen turning and need to ask a question and have a hard time with thier writing. I had a friend that was a had a power saw shop that was a superb saw mechanic, didn't find out until after he past away that he could not read or write, just good with numbers. I had a head injury and without the wifes help would not be able the write this so you can make it out but that does not effect making pens and other wood projects. There are still folks around that didn't make it through grade school that are more than a little bit bothered about the way they write and after reading this just might not ask the question that has them stoped. I am not looking for a job, just learning and helping out when I can. If you ask around you will find there are a lot of people that have not and never will make out a resume for a job, in some parts of the country and for some jobs it is not nessecary to do that. There is nothing wrong with Corecting some one in a fun way if people know what is going on. This is just my opinion from a different side of the coin.
Bob


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## DocStram (Feb 23, 2008)

After five pages of posts, I've decided to give my take on the matter.

Being a university professor, I am always reading and grading students' papers.  Being in Teacher Education, I am preparing professional educators . . . which means, I allow for no margin of error. My students know that a paper with one grammatical or one spelling error disqualifies them from earning an "A" on that assignment. Two or more errors will result in a grade no higher than a "C".  I'm preparing teachers . . . they're going to be teaching our children.  My colleagues and I require that our students master Standard English. Every time  I  distribute a handout, pass out a test, present a PowerPoint presentation . . . I make certain there are no grammatical or spelling errors. As many of you know, two of my colleagues and I are in the process of finishing up our second book. You can bet your boots that there are no errors in that manuscript.

With that being said, many of you have seen my typos, grammatical errors, and sometimes, spelling errors in IAP.  Heaven knows that Two Chops Mike and Cav have pointed those errors out to me on more than one occasion. That's their prerogative to offer corrections. It doesn't bother me one way of the other.

On the other hand, I never make corrections in another person's post.  In my opinion, it's a matter of pragmatics. We talk and write differently depending on the situation that we face. When I'm at the university, talking with the president . . . I use one form of language. When I'm at home talking with my wife . . . I use another  form of language.  When I'm in IAP . . . I use another variation. My language and choice of words, depends on the particular social situation.  When making posts in IAP, I feel there should be allowances made for grammatical and spelling errors. 

Most importantly, another reason that I don't correct other IAP member's posts is that I do not want to interfere with what they are trying to say. Just because I happen to have a doctoral degree does not mean that I am better than anybody else . . nor does it mean that I am smarter than anybody else. It does not give me the right to correct other's grammar or spelling.  Your grammar and spelling are part of who you are as a person. We all have a seat at the table in IAP. I do not want to make anybody feel unwelcome by correcting their spelling errors. 

And that, is my two cents worth.


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## rlharding (Feb 23, 2008)

Here's my 2 cents.

Reading posts that have atrocious spelling and grammar drives me crazy. 

I don't believe the thrust of this post is directed to people with disabilities. To me common sense should make that a given.

It's certainly interesting to me to read that some people think that this is a place to relax and forget about spelling and grammar because it's not a work place. I find it 'insulting'(sorry, can't think of another word) that posters don't give consideration to the people whom they are trying to convey a thought or idea. 

I have frequently gone to the web site of people with poor writing skills and found that the spelling & grammar exhibited on the forum is also in evidence on their web site. 

If one doesn't have a good education, I think they should go and get one. I don't have any idea what adult education is like in the US but here in BC, adults can take English, Math, and other subjects to obtain their grade 12 certificate. Poor English skills will impact the way one is viewed in the world. Bad spelling and grammar is not something to be proud of....or is that something of which to be proud?

My 2 cents....it's probably not even worth that.


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## GBusardo (Feb 23, 2008)

> _Originally posted by DocStram_
> 
> 
> On the other hand, I never make corrections in another person's post.  In my opinion, it's a matter of pragmatics. We talk and write differently depending on the situation that we face. When I'm at the university, talking with the president . . . I use one form of language. When I'm at home talking with my wife . . . I use another  form of language.  When I'm in IAP . . . I use another variation. My language and choice of words, depends on the particular social situation.  When making posts in IAP, I feel there should be allowances made for grammatical and spelling errors.
> ...



Thank You DocStram.


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## fritz64 (Feb 23, 2008)

Igraduated from highschool hated eng. class loved math and I type with one finger.spelling was never high on my list and it shows.so what,didnt need spelling to earn a living so never improved it.like the man said you always have a choice, to read or not to read.


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## R2 (Feb 24, 2008)

Jarhead and Ed, you have both given correct answers. Go to the top of the class!!This proves the point that, in some cases, there is no one correct answer. Cav may well have another answer.
As to which verbs my adverbs would refer Ed ,I take it to be the verb that follows the adverb. This may not be strictly correct usage in some minds, but after 60 years of having that usage reinforced I find using an adjective in the same position to be strange.
One problem with my method is that things become strange if you get to ,say, a twelfth point!


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## Jarheaded (Feb 24, 2008)

I am sure glad that this is a pen turning forum and not an english spelling and grammar forum. All I have learned here is that if you can't spell correctly or word your statement properly, you may not get an answer for the question which you originaly had from some people without an english lesson. I liked the gun thread better, and I didn't really like that one much. This whole thing, while sounding somewhat fun, does seem to feel a little uninviting to new members that may not be college proffessors or linguistic majors. I got through high school and survived through some college, but my strength was in using my hands and my mind to the best of my abilities. I like to turn pens and would like to ask some questions, but if this was my first day on this forum, it would probably be my last. Like it was previously said, you can't see ones expression while looking at a computer screen. So please excuse any mistakes that I have made in my little tirade here, but it is how I speak and write. My real schooling was at a little place called Beirut.
Semper Fi


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## DocStram (Feb 24, 2008)

My personal opinion is that I am not about to make excuses for any  spelling or grammatical errors that I may make in a post. 

I'm not coming to IAP to interview or apply for a job. If I make a mistake in a post, then it's my mistake and I don't need anybody to point out the error to me . . . especially in public.  

I would hate for anybody to feel uncomfortable in IAP because of spelling or grammatical errors.


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## Jarheaded (Feb 24, 2008)

I would like to recant part of my previous statement. I grouped some people that are all different into a catagory and I shouldn't have. There are a lot of different people here and even though they may work in the same feild, they have different opinions. I did not mean to insinuate that everyone that works in the education feild is going to correct someone spelling or grammar errors. I just feel that the levels of education on this forum range from post-grads to some that do not have that. I am not the smartest person in the world, but I am good at what I do and if spelling is going to count for everything in life, I may as well sit it out....But I am not going to do that and neither is anyone that tries. I am here to learn about making pens better, not to learn how to write properly. This is supposed to be a fun thing and I am learning a lot from this forum about pens, my command of the english language will not change because I am not trying to change it, I am trying to make a better pen.


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## fernhills (Feb 24, 2008)

> _Originally posted by fritz64_
> 
> Igraduated from highschool hated eng. class loved math and I type with one finger.spelling was never high on my list and it shows.so what,didnt need spelling to earn a living so never improved it.like the man said you always have a choice, to read or not to read.


     Hi, arn`t you glad we don`t have these bosses.To dismiss someone because he forgot to dot an I, Unbeleivible.., whatever you do i will not buy your products.. Carl


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## R2 (Feb 24, 2008)

Jarhead, this particular forum is not specifically related to issues concerning pen making. This is the correct place to air and discuss issues of interest such as grammar and spelling, pet peeves, movies, dog problems. It is interesting that you have joined this discussion to huff and puff. This is exactly where you should do that.


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## wdcav1952 (Feb 24, 2008)

Since I started this thread, I thought I would chime in once again.  I must state that I do not look down on anyone here on the forum because of their use of the English language.  (I specify English since that is the language used here.)  I have the greatest admiration for those who speak and/or write more than one language.  I simply cannot seem to learn more than a few words in Spanish, which helps slightly since I see many Spanish speaking inmates during the course of my work day.   I also know that many of the members here are far better wood workers than I can ever hope to be.

If someone studies my corrections, they will plainly see that I do not correct everyone.  I have a â€œno blood, no foulâ€ agreement with Roy, Ed and Dawn, Mike and Linda and a few others.  The idea has always been to make life on the forum a bit more fun.  Hopefully it is taken that way by most.  I admit that when someone gets under my skin a bit I may take a shot at them.  That is a personality trait that likely needs all 9 grits of Micro Mesh. [)]

When those of use who interview, or in my case used to interview, talk of strict accuracy, that is just the way things are.  If your tax preparer messed up by a couple of decimals, Iâ€™m sure that you might find that unacceptable as you faced an IRS auditor.  But, hey, there is no need to be so precise now is there?  Let us jump over to the work of a carpenter, a logger, a plumber, or any other field of work.  Would it bother you if your carpenter didnâ€™t quite get your new deck level?  What if your tree surgeon dropped a tree on your house, but just a little bit?  No problem, Iâ€™m sure, if your new shower does not drain properly.

As you hopefully see by now, accuracy is important in all walks of life.  It is not a fair reaction to attack the importance I put on our language any more than it is to attack the need for accuracy in other facets of our lives.  I have had private email â€œconversationsâ€ with members who do not use the language perfectly.  We understand and respect each other.  What does frustrate me is when someone posts in such a way that their meaning is simply impossible to interpret.  There recently was a post on a subject that I know absolutely nothing about.  I was glad to see the post, but could not understand it at all.

To finally end this epistle (Thanks to R2 ) we all strive for accuracy in what we find important.  If we are not interested in improving our work, and hopefully ourselves, then there is little use for this forum.  Thatâ€™s it; I am through on this subject.


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## Jarheaded (Feb 24, 2008)

R2, all I am doing is speaking my mind on the subject, I'm not saying it is wrong to discuss it.


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## Proud_Poppa_of_2 (Feb 24, 2008)

> _Originally posted by DocStram_
> 
> With that being said, many of you have seen my typos, grammatical errors, and sometimes, spelling errors in IAP.  Heaven knows that Two Chops Mike and Cav have pointed those errors out to me on more than one occasion. That's their prerogative to offer corrections. It doesn't bother me one way of the other.



I want to put Al's statement in context.  On a single occasion, and in a tongue-in-cheek manner, I corrected Al's grammar:  



> _Originally posted by Proud_Poppa_of_2_
> Cav, I hope you don't mind my cleaning that one up. I know you look forward to spotting Doc's rare miscues. I normally let those things slide, being somewhat imperfect in that department myself. (Just because I hail from a Commonwealth and not a state doesn't mean the Almighty endowed me with perfect grammar.) But, it's been a slow day and I kinda needed something useful to do. Ed hasn't been much fun and I thought I might be able to stir up some trouble around here. Just say the word and I'll lay off Doc's next error, which probably won't happen until June, anyway.



Other than that, I don't think I have corrected any person's grammar, spelling punctuation, etc. on these forums.  Back on January 30, I started a thread (http://www.penturners.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=32950) expressing my disdain for the correction of posters' errors.  I am not a proponent of the practice as I think it presumptuous.  

As an aside, I am bemused by those who have commented in this thread about the disregard they show job applicants and others whose resumes, covers letters, web sites, etc. contain grammatical, spelling, and word usage errors.  Each of those commentators has committed at least one such error of his or her own.  Many of those errors have been committed in this very thread.  I would be willing to bet most of these people would be unable to identify their errors without assistance.  The moral, I guess, is that he who lives in a glass house shouldn't throw stones.


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## wlk (Feb 24, 2008)

> _Is it fair that some employers and/or buyers judge you by your appearance and manner of speaking?  In a word, no.  Does it happen?  Of course it does, and it always will.  So, just like many of us are constantly striving to improve our pens, well you get the idea.
> _


_

Cav,

I don't see what is unfair about an employer or buyer forming opinions regarding a person from his appearance and manner of speaking. In a field where verbal and written communication requires precision, this sort of judgment is absolutely necessary. If my plumber splits infinitives, it will not affect his wrench work. Those of us who meet the public, should be refining our pens, our appearance, and our speaking. I need to constantly improve. The day I cease to improve (or at least desire to improve) is the day that life ceases to have meaning. 

Regards,

Wade

Let's reserve for another post a discussion about improving our handwriting. Stepped on my own toes![}]_


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## Tuba707 (Feb 25, 2008)

> _Originally posted by R2_
> 
> What is the error in the following sentence and why?
> Pardon me being helpful.



I believe it is the rule about possessive gerunds... It should read, "Pardon _my_ being helpful."

iz that the rite annsir?


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## Proud_Poppa_of_2 (Feb 25, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Tuba707_
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Good work, Joel.  That is, in fact, the rite annsir.


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## alamocdc (Feb 25, 2008)

> _Originally posted by ed4copies_
> 
> What you are pointing out R2, perhaps inadvertently, is the fact that there are differences between American, Australian and British.
> 
> To which verb would your adverbs "firstly, secondly and thirdly" be referring?



Ed, I actually had the same thoughts as R2 when I read Cav's post because I frequently wrote it as he did. However, my English professor quickly broke me of this. Yes, listing by number (bulletized format) has become quite exceptable today. However, this applies to actually using the numbers themselves (as I understand it). According to Dr. Geoghan, if one chooses to spell it out, uisng "first" at the beginning is acceptable, but any subsequent numbering should have the "ly" added (secondly, thridly, etc.).


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## alamocdc (Feb 25, 2008)

> _Originally posted by DocStram_
> 
> And that, is my two cents worth.



Al, I'm not sure how many others were paying attention, but I was. I am, of course, referring to the use of the comma in the above statement.


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## Mudder (Feb 25, 2008)

Here's a good one for you Cav.

Actual question from a Mensa Exam.


There is something unusual about the sentence below. Can you tell what it is?


"Not only is this unusual; it is also a particularly difficult thing to do."


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## wdcav1952 (Feb 25, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Proud_Poppa_of_2_
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Frankly Mike, I can handle your disdain without too much disruption to my daily routine.  If you are content to be a "NPGJ" poster and prefer nothing but warm air up your skirt that is fine by me.  I will do my best not to interject reality into the equation.  Some of us live in a world where red marks on a test paper are considered demoralizing to students, and where all contestants get a trophy.  

The following snippet of my post is the point I wished to make:

When those of use who interview, or in my case used to interview, talk of strict accuracy, that is just the way things are. If your tax preparer messed up by a couple of decimals, Iâ€™m sure that you might find that unacceptable as you faced an IRS auditor. But, hey, there is no need to be so precise now is there? Let us jump over to the work of a carpenter, a logger, a plumber, or any other field of work. Would it bother you if your carpenter didnâ€™t quite get your new deck level? What if your tree surgeon dropped a tree on your house, but just a little bit? No problem, Iâ€™m sure, if your new shower does not drain properly.

So, if I hurt any feelings with my attempts to improve the usage of the English language, consider my apologies extended.  Also, those of you who complain that a photo is too large, too dark, or out to focus should immediately cease and desist.  I certainly don't want any arrogant jerks pointing out sanding marks, poorly fitting joints on any posted pens.  You will insult those who haven't had the benefit of your wood-working experience.  Remember, we are here only to compliment, not to critique.

By the way, I checked all of the pens posted in the <s>Show Off Your Pens!</s> I mean the Nice Pen Good Job! Forum and they were all wonderful!


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## ed4copies (Feb 26, 2008)

OK, in a nutshell, so the nuts can follow:

I also read (have read) cover letters and resume's over the years.  I was always astonished by the number of typographical errors.  Consider this:

When I posted advertisements asking for resume's, those who sent such documents were presenting this as THE FIRST way I would "meet" them. Have you ever heard, "You only have ONE chance to make a good first impression!"? 

I hire people to go to business offices, greet the folks in the office, be directed to the copier and repair it.  Frequently, the customer will stand by and assist the technician with suggestions or just stand by, commenting on the procedure the tech is using with helpful phrases like, "Why do you think THAT will WORK???"

The resume' will never tell me if the candidate has the temperament to accept such helpful commentary without resorting to man(or woman) slaughter.  However, the words in front of me are all I have, upon which to judge the candidate.  Only the top 4 or 5 will be invited for an interview.

I am looking for a person who will be neatly dressed, can carry on a pleasant conversation with someone who is irritated (at their copier that "never works"), then work on equipment without making it obvious that (s)he is ignoring the customer's helpful oratory.  I'm supposed to do this, based on that piece of paper (resume') I am holding.

So, for those who have never been in this position, THIS is why we look at the document so carefully.  To me (and many others), typographical errors stick out like a sore thumb - I see them INSTANTLY.  And they indicate a lack of attention to detail. (Side note: It is true that my vision has deteriorated to a degree where I don't see the letters as I type my entries on these posts - the type is too small.  When it posts, it comes back in about 18 point type, which I CAN see.  So, you will see the incidence of my editing HAS gone up in the last two years.  WHEN I see every letter, I see the mistakes.  When typing this is not the case.)


So, is there a point to all this rambling ---- Kind of.

IF Cav corrects my spilling, I recognize that it was just a finger problem.  I "touch type", but in daily life my "spell-check" finds my errors - they don't go out in the dozens of letters, proposals and general communication that I generate.  HOWEVER, if Cav corrects the word "Emperor", he has done me a genuine service, since I clearly spelled it wrong, repeatedly.


So, I sit firmly on the fence.  Cav (and anyone else) can correct me whenever they like (no blood, no foul).  Such corrections are not humiliating - they merely prove I am human.  IF I miss a key and leave it for all to see, a little humiliation may help me be more attentive, as I type my next entry.

I certainly HOPE we are not "chasing away" new members.

EQUALLY IMPORTANT - I HOPE THE "NON-NATIVE ENGLISH" SPEAKING members WILL STAY HERE!!!  IF your country shows up next to your name, I am confident Cav and I will leave you alone!!!  You speak and write English much better than we can speak/write our second languages!!!  Thank-you for being here!

OK, I'm done for a few more pages of entries.


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## DCBluesman (Feb 26, 2008)




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## DocStram (Feb 26, 2008)

> _Originally posted by DCBluesman_



Yeah ... what Lou just said about beating a dead horse.


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## Proud_Poppa_of_2 (Feb 26, 2008)

I don't think the horse is dead.  I think I saw her tail move.  [}]


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## GoodTurns (Feb 26, 2008)

no movement...time to make horse chops


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## Proud_Poppa_of_2 (Feb 26, 2008)

> _Originally posted by GoodTurns_
> 
> no movement...time to make horse chops



You know, Jon, horse chops are not beneath me!


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## jtate (Feb 26, 2008)

Hey,  just a thought, I love compliments (and, happily, I have received a few of them from folks on this site) but what I really look for in responses to my posted pens is critique.  That's what's valuable to me.  I want to know what I can do to make it - or rather the next one - better.  

This extends to my communications not just my pens.  I want to know my errors in form and in content.

So, please correct me, critique me, spank me when I deserve it. 

I promise, I am strong enough to take it!

Julia


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## wdcav1952 (Feb 26, 2008)

> _Originally posted by jtate_
> 
> Hey,  just a thought, I love compliments (and, happily, I have received a few of them from folks on this site) but what I really look for in responses to my posted pens is critique.  That's what's valuable to me.  I want to know what I can do to make it - or rather the next one - better.
> 
> ...



Nothing like a good spanking!! [}]


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## DCBluesman (Feb 26, 2008)

> _Originally posted by jtate_
> 
> spank me when I deserve it.
> Julia


NOW you've got my attention! [}]


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## alamocdc (Feb 26, 2008)

And there she goes... being a little tease again.[}][:0]


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## Proud_Poppa_of_2 (Feb 26, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Proud_Poppa_of_2_
> 
> I don't think the horse is dead.  I think I saw her tail move.  [}]




I'm not one to say "I told you so," but, I told you so.


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## ed4copies (Feb 26, 2008)

> _Originally posted by DCBluesman_
> 
> 
> 
> ...




UUUHhhhhhhhh,

Mr Metcalf???????


I thought you implied the topic should die (dead horse whipping)?????


NOW, you rise to <s>speak</s> type again.


So, ummmmmm, What "Attention", specifically, has risen?????[}][}][}]


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## DocStram (Feb 26, 2008)

I can't wait to see who is going to have the last post on this thread.  It's like the Blob ... keeps coming back to life.


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## GoodTurns (Feb 26, 2008)

if you guys check her profile, you will see list her occupation as a psychotherapist...we are just a big old case study for her!


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## ed4copies (Feb 26, 2008)

She's a plumber in real life, but plays a psychotherapist on IAP


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## loglugger (Feb 26, 2008)

Going to get turned in for animal cruelty if you don't stop beating that horse.    
Bob


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## DocRon (Feb 27, 2008)

What an interesting post. I have been bothered by bad writing and poor grammar for a long time. One of my jobs in my past life was to prepare government reports for a non-native English speaking boss (native of Bangaledesh). I got pretty good at spotting typos and correcting grammar. However, in my own work ... I am convinced that nobody can  proofread their own writing properly. Besides that, I use the Biblical method of typing, (seek and ye shall find) so lots of typos occur all by themselves. I appreciate corrections, and am really bothered by egregious mistakes in myself and others, but for this forum, unlike in real life, we need to let it pass, unless we really can't understand what is being said.
Doc Ron


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## Mudder (Feb 28, 2008)

> _Originally posted by DocRon_
> 
> What an interesting post. I have been bothered by bad writing and poor grammar for a long time. One of my jobs in my past life was to prepare government reports for a non-native English speaking boss (native of Bangaledesh). I got pretty good at spotting typos and correcting grammar. However, in my own work ... I am convinced that nobody can  proofread their own writing properly. Besides that, I use the Biblical method of typing, (seek and ye shall find) so lots of typos occur all by themselves. I appreciate corrections, and am really bothered by egregious mistakes in myself and others, but for this forum, unlike in real life, we need to let it pass, unless we really can't understand what is being said.
> Doc Ron




Can you say that again; In English?    [}]


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