# What is your opinion?



## Jgrden (Oct 16, 2011)

I witnessed a neighbor who has decided to stop payments on her loan to the bank. She attempted to negotiate and did not get anywhere with the bank. She decided to find work in another state and is moving. She had a "moving sale" in which we witnessed bath room fixtures being removed and trucked off. 

Does it seem odd to you that removing real property is different than personal property. Does it seem like this is theft? It does to me. 

If I were forced to move under a foreclosure circumstance, my thoughts are to take my personal property and leave the house in tact and face the deficit issue later on. 

What makes these people think they will ever be granted a loan in the future after failing to meet their obligation in the first place?? 

I am perplexed.


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## Drstrangefart (Oct 16, 2011)

People do stupid stuff when they get mad like that. I've seen people build full-blown mini skate parks in houses that were about to foreclose and destroy the place. It's nuts. There was a point in my life not too long ago where I probably would have done something similar.


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## NewLondon88 (Oct 16, 2011)

I agree with you.. it is theft. and I think it is even criminal.
The bathroom fixtures, doors, windows, kitchen sink etc. 
are all part of the property once installed. Penalties might
differ by state, though.


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## 76winger (Oct 16, 2011)

Well I don't believe it's right as those types of fixtures are part of the house and technically belong to the bank until such point as the mortgage is paid it full. That kind of activity is theft and really just as bad as the other extremes where people demolish a house they've been foreclosed on. It's not their property to tear up!

Understandably they're P.O.ed to no end and blaming all their problems on the bank, but the reality usually leaves a lot of blame to go around everywhere, but I'm not get started on fiscal responsibility here, not only off topic, but the wrong forum to boot.


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## Crashmph (Oct 16, 2011)

Full blown theft for sure.  And it is just down right evil to do that type of crap.  Seen it happen al over the area around here.  When I was house shopping, we refused to consider foreclosed homes because the first three we looked at we're trashed. One had all the carpets removed. One had large nails driven into the hardwood. One had almost every coper wire and pipe removed. And one had all the deck boards to the deck removed and the main supports of the two story deck mostly sawed through.   Just ridiculous.


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## Smitty37 (Oct 16, 2011)

*Not uncommon*

I bought and resold used mobile homes at one time.  
First, it was common for a buyer to take a loan they couldn't afford.  

Second, it was common for buyers to make two or 3 payments then stop paying (I lived in NY and eviction was difficult and time consuming). 

Third, after about 4 to 5 months of not making payments(often they were in trailer parks and would stop paying lot rent at the same time), it was common to trash the place when they finally left. And, the trailer park would put a lien on the mobile for back rent.

If you were in the business of selling used mobile homes it was just a cost of doing business.  How did I make money - Buy the distressed mobile, fix it up and sell it for cash.  The buyer wanted the home they brought me a certified check and I was done with it.  I didn't care where they financed but they didn't finance any of it with me.


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## PenMan1 (Oct 16, 2011)

I'd be careful who you let know that you witnessed this happening, as not only is this "tacky", it's grand theft.

If you are forced to testify, this could change the case from a civil case (foreclosure), to a criminal case (theft by conversion).


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## Fred (Oct 17, 2011)

IMHO ... I don't believe that just because anyone witnessed the alleged theft would make it criminal. By being a witness to the theft they would just be a possible witness for the plaintiff in any case that is/may be brought before a court by the bank.

The fact that property is removed from the house might make it a criminal offense based on the value of the property removed and the severity of the charges does change from state to state.

Either way, the actions of the individual will certainly make it far more difficult for them to again be suitable for a home loan, or any credit. Not to mention the fact that this action is just like that of a shoplifter ... WE all will be faced with increased costs down the way.

I would suggest that this information of theft be reported to the bank ASAP ... and one can do that simply by calling and making a report to the bank loan officer. If the witness does not want to leave a name or any such information they can call from a pay phone. EITHER WAY CALL THE BANK and do the rest of us a favor.

Stealing is stealing ...


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## xxShadowxx (Oct 17, 2011)

call the bank, let em fry, they dug their own hole, no reason for anyone but them to pay :biggrin:


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## dogcatcher (Oct 17, 2011)

I have seen the same thing done to a rent house, the exception is when they moved they loaded up the plumbing fixtures, inside doors, electrical fixtures and everything else they could.  They left the landlord with an empty shell.


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## Grizz (Oct 17, 2011)

And here, we can't get the bank to foreclose on us.  We had to move to another State and can't to afford to rent here and own there.  The bank changed the locks on the house... locking out our Realtor and won't let us rent it out.  Yet, we are considered the owners of the property... this has been going on for over 2.5 years.


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## srf1114 (Oct 17, 2011)

The damages they did to this house will have no affect on them buying a new house or getting a loan.  After 7 years ( differ's by state) the bad credit mark will fall off their credit score, and they'll be able to get a loan the same as before. 

Only if criminal Charges are pressed will a record follow them around, but that isn't a record a loan officer will check  when granting them a future loan. In most instances charges will not be filed, because even if the bank succeeds in the case, they will rarely recoup the cost of the litigation fees let alone the damages.


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## Smitty37 (Oct 17, 2011)

*Not normal*



Grizz said:


> And here, we can't get the bank to foreclose on us. We had to move to another State and can't to afford to rent here and own there. The bank changed the locks on the house... locking out our Realtor and won't let us rent it out. Yet, we are considered the owners of the property... this has been going on for over 2.5 years.


 
That isn't normal but not unheard of either.  You are the owner - the bank is a lien holder and there could be others (the taxing authority if the taxes are not up to date).  The fact that you had to stop paying the mortgage does not give the bank title to the property.  

Foreclosure is the forced sale of the property and usually the bank will enter a bid on it (normally for something close to what is owed them), others can and do buy foreclosed properties.  All someone else needs do is bid higher than the bank.  In a depressed market the banks do not like to foreclose because they are not in the real estate business and don't want to have a lot of their assets tied up in real estate that isn't moving.
Additionally the bank where you have the mortgage might well have sold the loan to Fannie Mae or Freddie Mac or some other big money place.

There could be some question as to the banks right to change the locks and prevent renting since they do not own the property.  I'd check that with a real estate lawyer in that state since it might depend on the State it's in.


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## Dudley Young (Oct 17, 2011)

Fred said:


> IMHO ... I don't believe that just because anyone witnessed the alleged theft would make it criminal. By being a witness to the theft they would just be a possible witness for the plaintiff in any case that is/may be brought before a court by the bank.
> 
> The fact that property is removed from the house might make it a criminal offense based on the value of the property removed and the severity of the charges does change from state to state.
> 
> ...


 What's a pay phone?


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## Dudley Young (Oct 17, 2011)

Start a grow house in it and you can make the payments.


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## mredburn (Oct 17, 2011)

As I have dealt in foreclosures I have the following to offer.  Depending on your state laws it may not be illegal at all. Here in Florida IF you have a mortgage it points to the real property as collateral. THe property belongs to you to do with what you wish, as you wish.  Up and until the house legaly is processed through the forclosure courts, sold at auction and 10 business days have passed since the auction. You can legaly cancel the forclosure sale if you can raise the funds up to 10 business days after the auction. On the 11th business day it legally becomes someone elses property.  But until that time you can strip it bare and sell as much of it off as possible if that is what you in good concience can do.  The only recourse for the bank is to sell off the foreclosed upon property and if they cant sell it for the amount that was owed to them they can persue you for the differences.  Possibly getting a deficiancy judgement. 

Many people have lost everything and although it may morally be wrong its not illegal in Florida. Most of these people are in financial crises and need to sell everything they can to move.


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## Smitty37 (Oct 17, 2011)

*Different*



mredburn said:


> As I have dealt in foreclosures I have the following to offer. Depending on your state laws it may not be illegal at all. Here in Florida IF you have a mortgage it points to the real property as collateral. THe property belongs to you to do with what you wish, as you wish. Up and until the house legaly is processed through the forclosure courts, sold at auction and 10 business days have passed since the auction. You can legaly cancel the forclosure sale if you can raise the funds up to 10 business days after the auction. On the 11th business day it legally becomes someone elses property. But until that time you can strip it bare and sell as much of it off as possible if that is what you in good concience can do. The only recourse for the bank is to sell off the foreclosed upon property and if they cant sell it for the amount that was owed to them they can persue you for the differences. Possibly getting a deficiancy judgement.
> Many people have lost everything and although it may morally be wrong its not illegal in Florida. Most of these people are in financial crises and need to sell everything they can to move.


 I think that is different from most states.  I think in most states when the gavel falls the foreclosed party has no more rights with respect to anything that would be considered part of the real property.  Appliances yes, fixtures no.


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## mredburn (Oct 17, 2011)

My best friends father handles realestate in Hawaii and they can reclaim the house up to one year.


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## Frank Nemke sr (Oct 17, 2011)

Here in ca. some even strip the copper wire and pluming out of the house. icelated locations need to be watched because someone will use it for a crack house or meth lad.  thats why the bank will have them boarded up as soon as they get the people out


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## Smitty37 (Oct 17, 2011)

*Wow!*

That was true in NY State to some degree for tax sales but not foreclosures.  The person whos house/real property was sold for taxes had about a year or more to pay the taxes (reimburse the buyer) and could reclaim the property.  So anyone buying at tax sale had to sit on the property for awhile (actually many times they didn't because the owner was nowhere to be found) before doing anything to improve it.


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## Haynie (Oct 17, 2011)

It is a misnomer that the house belongs to the bank until you pay it off.  The house belongs to you, the money used to pay for the house belongs to the bank.  Those fixtures are hers until the loan is foreclosed upon and the bank claims the collateral.


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## Smitty37 (Oct 17, 2011)

*Bank doesn't claim....*



Haynie said:


> It is a misnomer that the house belongs to the bank until you pay it off. The house belongs to you, the money used to pay for the house belongs to the bank. Those fixtures are hers until the loan is foreclosed upon and the bank claims the collateral.


The bank does not own the house unless they foreclose (force the sale) and buy it.  The bank can't just "claim the collateral" as they can with a car for instance.


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## Jim Burr (Oct 17, 2011)

Before medicine, I spent 25 years in the mortgage business. What she did is a crime in California. Items affixed to the structure are part of the building and there considered real property. Since the house is not her's and is owned by the lein holder, she sold their property and I'm taking a guess here, without their permission or knowledge. Big no no :frown:


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## sbell111 (Oct 17, 2011)

Smitty37 said:


> Haynie said:
> 
> 
> > It is a misnomer that the house belongs to the bank until you pay it off. The house belongs to you, the money used to pay for the house belongs to the bank. Those fixtures are hers until the loan is foreclosed upon and the bank claims the collateral.
> ...



Still, Haynie's point is a good one.  The bank does not own the house in question until such time as it is foreclosed upon.  A homeowner owns the house and can legally remove any part of it, even if he has a mortgage.

The person referenced in the OP is perhaps behaving unethically, but it is unlikely that any laws are being broken.


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## Seer (Oct 17, 2011)

The FBI in Arizona is currently pursuing and arresting these types of people.  Theft and nothing more.


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## Lenny (Oct 17, 2011)

Many years ago another contractor in town was hired to build a small home right on the water for someone from out of state. He had the place framed up but hadn't been able to collect any money from the guy. It became apparent to him he wasn't ever planning to pay. So the contractor bought a small piece of adjacent land, rattled in a foundation, and had the house cut away from the foundation and moved to the new one on his land!  I never did hear if it ended in litigation or not but I do know he finished the house and sold it to another person.


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## Russianwolf (Oct 17, 2011)

If you feel like the banks are getting a raw deal, read this.

http://articles.sfgate.com/2011-06-05/business/29622321_1_servicers-deutsche-bank-property-upkeep


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## Smitty37 (Oct 17, 2011)

*Mechanics lien*



Lenny said:


> Many years ago another contractor in town was hired to build a small home right on the water for someone from out of state. He had the place framed up but hadn't been able to collect any money from the guy. It became apparent to him he wasn't ever planning to pay. So the contractor bought a small piece of adjacent land, rattled in a foundation, and had the house cut away from the foundation and moved to the new one on his land! I never did hear if it ended in litigation or not but I do know he finished the house and sold it to another person.


 That would come under different financing and very likely he didn't break any laws....When you hire a contractor to build a house on your lot it is not your house until the contractor is paid.  Most people get a construction loan which is not a mortgage until the house is ready when the buyer gets a mortgage to pay off the construction loan.


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## wolftat (Oct 17, 2011)

I just want to know who the hell buys a used toilet?


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## Smitty37 (Oct 17, 2011)

*I agree with you*



sbell111 said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > Haynie said:
> ...


 
I agree if it has not been foreclosed the owner has all the rights of ownership under *conventional* mortgages. The bank does not own the home and can not take possession of it. Under some of the idiotic financing that has gone on in recent years, who knows? I sure don't.


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## mredburn (Oct 17, 2011)

We have people advertising on Craigs list telling people that are losing their home that they will buy the a/c, pool pumps, cabinets, plants, the appliances of course, almost anything that can be removed and sold, even the carpets. Who would buy a used toilet? Somebody does.
I forgot one ad was looking to buy the windows out of your house if they were impact.


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## BlackPearl (Oct 17, 2011)

Five years ago they started a housing development across the Highway from my property.

They built 25 houses sold 5, the 5 that sold the poeple moved out within a year or two. I would bet if you added all 25 houses together there would not be 10 yards or copper wire, two toilets and maybe 3 bath tubs. There are no garage openers and the garage doors are starting to disappear. The kitchen sinks are gone and I overheard one guy claim that he got a bid from a builder in another town for the cabinet doors. 

I look for a big grass fire over there next summer and unfortunately those shells will not be saved.


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## NewLondon88 (Oct 17, 2011)

wolftat said:


> I just want to know where the hell to buy a used toilet?



why, do you need one?


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## Padre (Oct 17, 2011)

Unethical? Yes.  Immoral?  Yes.  Illegal? No.

How can it be theft?  By that definition, if I remodel my house, I would need the bank's permission to remove and toss the old stuff, since "they own it."  Baloney.  It's mine.  I can do what I want with it.


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## Smitty37 (Oct 17, 2011)

*Timing*

I think it depends on the timing of when the stuff is removed.  Before foreclosure it is not theft.


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## Jgrden (Oct 17, 2011)

76winger said:


> Well I don't believe it's right as those types of fixtures are part of the house and technically belong to the bank until such point as the mortgage is paid it full. That kind of activity is theft and really just as bad as the other extremes where people demolish a house they've been foreclosed on. It's not their property to tear up!
> 
> Understandably they're P.O.ed to no end and blaming all their problems on the bank, but the reality usually leaves a lot of blame to go around everywhere, but I'm not get started on fiscal responsibility here, not only off topic, but the wrong forum to boot.


And where the heck do you think this should have been posted??   Secondly, you were right about the real property being security to the loan. She should have read the Deed of Trust and it spells this out very clearly. :wink:


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## Jgrden (Oct 17, 2011)

Padre said:


> Unethical? Yes.  Immoral?  Yes.  Illegal? No.
> 
> How can it be theft?  By that definition, if I remodel my house, I would need the bank's permission to remove and toss the old stuff, since "they own it."  Baloney.  It's mine.  I can do what I want with it.


Friend of mine, read your deed of trust and see what it says. I think you'd be surprised.


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## alphageek (Oct 17, 2011)

Jgrden said:


> Padre said:
> 
> 
> > Unethical? Yes.  Immoral?  Yes.  Illegal? No.
> ...



Breaking the terms of your deed of trust doesn't necessarily make it theft.

I'm guessing your referring to text similar to this: 
"Preservation, Maintenance and Protection of the Property; Inspections. Borrower shall not destroy, damage or impair the Property, allow the Property to deteriorate or commit waste on the Property. Whether or not Borrower is residing in the Property, Borrower shall maintain the Property in order to prevent the Property from deteriorating or decreasing in value due to its condition. "

She is most likely guilty of breaking a contract and may have issues with other terms in her deed of trust.   However, I really doubt that means much to her given that she has stopped paying anyway.   

*Be careful*!   Ignored, empty properties can be a dangerous, bad thing for a neighborhood!


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## Smitty37 (Oct 17, 2011)

*I Have*



Jgrden said:


> Padre said:
> 
> 
> > Unethical? Yes. Immoral? Yes. Illegal? No.
> ...


 
Not all states use a deed of trust. Alaska, Arizona, California, Colorado, the District of Columbia, Idaho, Maryland, Mississippi, Missouri, Montana, Nebraska, Nevada, New Mexico, North Carolina, Oregon, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Virginia, Washington, and West Virginia are the ones that do. And, they are not used in all transactions in those states but are the most common way loans are made. In a deed of trust, the trustee is the title holder. The Turstee is *NOT* the bank. It is usually a title company.  They usually don't come into play until and unless there is a default.


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## mredburn (Oct 17, 2011)

As I stated earlier it varies from state to state. Florida has Warranty deeds and Quick claim deeds and a couple of variations but all they do is convey ownership of the property from the seller to the buyer. THe terms your quoting in the deed for trust are not used here. When that happens here its a violation of the mortgage agreement and not a criminal act.


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## Smitty37 (Oct 17, 2011)

mredburn said:


> As I stated earlier it varies from state to state. Florida has Warranty deeds and Quick claim deeds and a couple of variations but all they do is convey ownership of the property from the seller to the buyer. THe terms your quoting in the deed for trust are not used here. When that happens here its a violation of the mortgage agreement and not a criminal act.


 
Quit Claim deeds are worthless most of the time.  All they convey to the buyer are the rights the seller has in the property (which might me none at all).  Frequently if property is sold via a sheriff's sale the new owner will try to get the former owner to execute a quit claim deed to quiet the title.  It prevents a long lost 2nd cousin 4 times removed from popping up and asserting a claim on the property.


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