# TBC



## montess (Nov 25, 2012)

can anyone explain the TBC procedure? What parts are needed for lathe? Link to a video? Thanks.:biggrin:


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## longbeard (Nov 25, 2012)

This might help ya

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## toddlajoie (Nov 25, 2012)

Bare minimum you need a 60 degree live center and a 60 degree dead center and a cheap set of digital calipers.

 Drill and tube as usuall, put a single barrel between the 2 centers and tighten just enough to hold the blank. Spin it and turn it down, stopping often to measure with the calipers and turn to the desired size and profile for the kit. Finish as usual, repeat with the second barrel if it is a 2 barrel pen.

Steel TBC bushings make the job quicker ( less stopping to measure ) and eliminates the slight wearing of the edges of the brass tube and chance of splitting the blank if you tighten it down too much. Delrin or similar bushings help in finishing, but neither of theses are required, and I only have them for the kits I do the most...


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## Richard Gibson (Nov 25, 2012)

You can use your regular bushings also.


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## bellringer 75 (Nov 26, 2012)

could you make your own bushings


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## eliasbboy (Nov 26, 2012)

I've just finished my first handful of pens BTC and it's pretty enjoyable.   It takes a bit getting used to stopping for measurements and all but the solid way the blank spins was enough to show me how my mandrel had been doing.

Like has already been said, I purchased a dead and live center and used my existing digital calipers.   Easy as 1-2-3.

Good luck!


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## Lenny (Nov 26, 2012)

bellringer 75 said:


> could you make your own bushings



Of course! In fact there is an article in the IAP library on doing just that!

I would add that in addition to getting a 60 degree dead center to go along with the 60 degree live center that you SHOULD already have for use with a mandrel, you will also want a short tool rest to allow getting in close enough to your work when TBC.


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## paintspill (Nov 26, 2012)

here's what your basic set up will look like, not a lot of extra money invested, especially when you consider you can try a new kit to see if you like it without buying the bushings if you don't want to.
the pictures so the blank before and after using the bushings then mounted without the bushings for finishing, i just converted recently and love it


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## Jim Burr (Nov 26, 2012)

I had to turn something on a mandrel a few weeks ago...really pi$$ed me off!!


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## randyrls (Nov 26, 2012)

bellringer 75 said:


> could you make your own bushings



Yes;  It is one of the things I do on my metal lathe.  You could make them out of corian or similar material.  You will need a center drill.
Center Drills, Set of 5 (Numbers 1-5) - LittleMachineShop.com

The flared portion is a 60 degree angle.


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## Rob73 (Nov 26, 2012)

I picked up all my TBC supplies from Penturners Products!  maybe a year or two ago.  I turn most small projects between centers these days.  I guess it's safe to say I've been converted from the pen mandrel.  Though It's still hanging on my tool wall


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## JD Combs Sr (Nov 26, 2012)

I make my own TBC bushings or use a center drill to drill out the end of the conventional bushings if I already had them.  The conventional bushings can be used without center drilling but re-drilling puts 60* flats in the ends of the bushings for more friction against the dead center for better "driving" of the blank.

I really prefer making my own though because I can make the part that goes into the tube much longer then the conventional bushings.  For me this makes the blank/bushing setup even more stable.


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## Ulises Victoria (Nov 26, 2012)

So, in short: TBC means only NOT using a mandrel


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## plano_harry (Nov 27, 2012)

Ulises Victoria said:


> So, in short: TBC means only NOT using a mandrel



Yes - NOT using a mandrel, as long as you add a 60 degree dead center to the setup in place of whatever drove your mandrel.  You can use mandrel bushings, but will get better results with bushings that have a 60 degree cone on the outside to fit the centers better.

As far as making the move to TBC, you would be hard preesed to beat what Johnny at Penturners Products offers.  His MT2 carbide dead center price beat any I could find; the TBC bushings are so well made, they should come in a wooden case.  This, and a 60 degree live tail will be a treat to your turning enjoyment.  Not TBC, but I also love his delrin "eliminator" cone bushings to get my best CA finish.  Don't know why i resisted this sooo long!

A must for pen turner's Christmas list.

Harry


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## Ulises Victoria (Nov 27, 2012)

Thanks Harry.
+1 on the Delrin bushings. I don't do much CA finishing, but when I do, those bushings are truly fantastic.
I have already a a 60 deg dead and live centers. I may try TBC sometime :wink:


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## mpex (Dec 3, 2012)

Can anyone help with a specific shopping list to get started with TBC?  I started looking at the PSI and a couple other websites but was having trouble figuring out what the right things to buy were.
Specifically:
Which live and dead centers should I get? 
Which tool rest should I get that will fit my lathe and be the right size to turn a single blank?

I have a Delta Midi 46-460.

Thanks for any help!!!


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## NotURMailman (Dec 3, 2012)

As recomended above, try penturnersproducts.com for live and dead centers as well as BTC bushings. 

There is a vendor catalog in the marketplace section here on IAP that makes tool rests and explains how to measure for what you need.


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## mpex (Dec 3, 2012)

NotURMailman said:


> As recomended above, try penturnersproducts.com for live and dead centers as well as BTC bushings.
> 
> There is a vendor catalog in the marketplace section here on IAP that makes tool rests and explains how to measure for what you need.



I did look at penturners products.  I wasn't sure what the difference between MT1 and MT2 and which I would need.  There was no explanation that I could find of the difference.  And no phone number to call and discuss. I can just email them if no one here has the answer.

I'll take a look at the vendor catalog for the tool rest info.

Thanks!


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## NotURMailman (Dec 3, 2012)

That depends on your lathe. Look up your lathe specs and see if it has MT1 or MT2. Probably MT2, but you want to check and be sure.


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## eliasbboy (Dec 3, 2012)

mpex said:


> NotURMailman said:
> 
> 
> > As recomended above, try penturnersproducts.com for live and dead centers as well as BTC bushings.
> ...




According to Delta's website your lathe takes an MT2.

"Head and Tailstock Taper: #2 MT"

Now you just need to pick a live center for the tailstock (it will spin on bearings) and a dead center for the head (one solid piece to "drive" your workpiece) that are both MT2.


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## NotURMailman (Dec 3, 2012)

Google search says Delta Midi 46-460 is MT2 on head and tail.


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## mpex (Dec 3, 2012)

eliasbboy said:


> Now you just need to pick a live center for the tailstock (it will spin on bearings) and a dead center for the head (one solid piece to "drive" your workpiece) that are both MT2.



What criteria should I use to determine which live center? Recommendations?


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## NotURMailman (Dec 3, 2012)

The ones from penturner's products are high quality and are a common recomendation. That's where I got mine, and they are very nice. You will also get a discount if you buy some between centers bushings at the same time.


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## Lenny (Dec 3, 2012)

It always amazes me that people talk about needing to get a 60 degree live center for turning between centers!!! 
If you are turning pens, between centers OR using a mandrel, you should already have a 60 degree live center in the tailstock. If you are using the regular cup center that came with your lathe, it IS NOT a 60 degree center, usually! It will most likely damage your mandrel! 

So, given that you should have that anyway, the only additional equiptment needed to try TBC is a 60 degree dead center for use in the headstock and a short tool rest, so you can get close to your work. Some get around that by making (or purchasing) an extended length 60 degree center.


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## NotURMailman (Dec 3, 2012)

I, for one, started making pens as my first project after buying my lathe. I did research and went to WoodCraft to buy supplies. a 60degree live center was on my shopping list, and the sales person told me I didn't need it as the one that came with my lathe would work fine. Being a newbie I didn't know any better. So, I was using the stock center. So, I didn't get a 60degree center until I started tooling up to ditch the mandrel.


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## mpex (Dec 3, 2012)

Lenny said:


> It always amazes me that people talk about needing to get a 60 degree live center for turning between centers!!!
> If you are turning pens, between centers OR using a mandrel, you should already have a 60 degree live center in the tailstock. If you are using the regular cup center that came with your lathe, it IS NOT a 60 degree center, usually! It will most likely damage your mandrel!
> 
> So, given that you should have that anyway, the only additional equiptment needed to try TBC is a 60 degree dead center for use in the headstock and a short tool rest, so you can get close to your work. Some get around that by making (or purchasing) an extended length 60 degree center.



The live center that my lathe came with has the small pin which just fits into the tail of the mandrel.  Pretty positive it is not a 60degree.  I think I will need both...


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## Lenny (Dec 3, 2012)

NotURMailman said:


> I, for one, started making pens as my first project after buying my lathe. I did research and went to WoodCraft to buy supplies. a 60degree live center was on my shopping list, and the sales person told me I didn't need it as the one that came with my lathe would work fine. Being a newbie I didn't know any better. So, I was using the stock center. So, I didn't get a 60degree center until I started tooling up to ditch the mandrel.


 
I have been wrong before :biggrin: ...
there may well be some cup centers that are indeed 60 degrees .... Getting a true 60 degree live center is a worthwhile investment though!


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## NotURMailman (Dec 3, 2012)

Lenny said:


> NotURMailman said:
> 
> 
> > I, for one, started making pens as my first project after buying my lathe. I did research and went to WoodCraft to buy supplies. a 60degree live center was on my shopping list, and the sales person told me I didn't need it as the one that came with my lathe would work fine. Being a newbie I didn't know any better. So, I was using the stock center. So, I didn't get a 60degree center until I started tooling up to ditch the mandrel.
> ...


 

No, I agree. The stock center is indeed not 60deg. Should have trusted my own research instead of the sales person. But, he was just trying to save me money. I have a good one from PTP now.


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## Jim Burr (Dec 3, 2012)

Lenny said:


> It always amazes me that people talk about needing to get a 60 degree live center for turning between centers!!!
> If you are turning pens, between centers OR using a mandrel, you should already have a 60 degree live center in the tailstock. If you are using the regular cup center that came with your lathe, it IS NOT a 60 degree center, usually! It will most likely damage your mandrel!
> 
> So, given that you should have that anyway, the only additional equiptment needed to try TBC is a 60 degree dead center for use in the headstock and a short tool rest, so you can get close to your work. Some get around that by making (or purchasing) an extended length 60 degree center.


 
Thanks Lenny!! That's about what it is...start out with good stuff and you end up with good stuff.


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## plano_harry (Dec 3, 2012)

mpex said:


> NotURMailman said:
> 
> 
> > As recomended above, try penturnersproducts.com for live and dead centers as well as BTC bushings.
> ...



Moshe, If you are uncertain, email John at penturners products.com.  He is very helpful and won't sell you something you don't need.

As i stated above, basically, you are looking for an MT2 carbide tip dead center.  He gives a price break when you buy bushings
I recommend that you get his bushings to fit the pens you turn most.
I would also spring for his custom short tool rest since you will only be turning one blank at a time.  The Jet 1014 model will also fit Delta 46-460.
To save shipping, I would also get a set of his universal eliminator cones for finishing.
Johnny's 60 degree center was more than I wanted to spend, so I got the one PSI sells.

There is you TBC shopping list.


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## panamag8or (Dec 3, 2012)

Woodturningz has dead centers for less than $10 right now, according to the email they sent.


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## Rodnall (Dec 3, 2012)

I just went to woodturningz and they are out of stock. ETA Feb, 2013


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## Lenny (Dec 3, 2012)

H7967 Carbide-Tipped Lathe Center - MT2


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## mpex (Dec 10, 2012)

Can you use standard mandrel sized bushings to TBC?


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## johnnycnc (Dec 10, 2012)

mpex said:


> Can you use standard mandrel sized bushings to TBC?




you sure can, I've done that.


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## Carl Fisher (Dec 10, 2012)

mpex said:


> Can you use standard mandrel sized bushings to TBC?



Absolutely.  I do it on every pen I turn (except slims).  I'll turn with the standard bushings until I get close then pull the bushings and finish off with just the blank between the centers until the calipers say I'm good.

Slims I just turn 100% between centers with no bushings.


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## mpex (Dec 14, 2012)

Thanks!  One more question (for now): 
I tried TBC without bushings for the first time yesterday.  I did it on a blank with a 3/8" tube.  I must have overtightened it because the lip was bent outward when I took it off the lathe.  Is that my problem?  How can you turn a piece if it isn't snug between the centers?


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## Ulises Victoria (Dec 14, 2012)

You don't need to have the blanks really tight. Just enough so they don't spin. I would tighten them very light and then if they spin tighten just a few steps at a time until I find the right spot.


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## Lenny (Dec 14, 2012)

mpex said:


> Thanks!  One more question (for now):
> I tried TBC without bushings for the first time yesterday.  I did it on a blank with a 3/8" tube.  I must have overtightened it because the lip was bent outward when I took it off the lathe.  Is that my problem?  How can you turn a piece if it isn't snug between the centers?



You can turn between centers using the bushing you would normally use on a mandrel (except of course 7mm pens) ... 
For 7mm pens the 7mm triple play from penturners products is an excellent value!


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## Dale Allen (Dec 14, 2012)

To use standard bushing they must be the stepped type.
The bushings used on 7mm and 8mm mandrels do not fit into the brass tube and cannot be used.

You want the blank to turn without tightening the tailstock too much, used TBC bushings.
You want to avoid flaring the brass tube, use TBC bushings.
You want to avoid splitting the wood or plastic blank, use TBC bushings.

Also, keep in mind that the standard bushings are not nearly as tight fitting in the brass tube as the proper bushings.
So, that 2 or 3 thousands of an inch is exactly how far out of concentricity(sic) the blank may be.


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## Phillikl (Dec 14, 2012)

Went by my local wood shop, picked up a dead center, $9!! YAY  Absolutely kicks the mandrel booty!!  Now for a question; how to deal with CA overrun to the centers?  Seems like I am getting a bit of build up and blow out of the CA at the ends. My fix has been to take it off and sand the ends square, check for crack/chip outs then start the sanding/polishing process...  Any thoughts?

Thanks!

Merry Christmas!
~Kendall


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## Leatherman1998 (Dec 14, 2012)

If you are really good use a skew to trim the ends.

Levi Woodard
Woodardwoodworks.com

Sent from my Galaxy player using Forum Runner


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## Lenny (Dec 15, 2012)

Phillikl said:


> Now for a question; how to deal with CA overrun to the centers?  Seems like I am getting a bit of build up and blow out of the CA at the ends. My fix has been to take it off and sand the ends square, check for crack/chip outs then start the sanding/polishing process...  Any thoughts?
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> ...



The ca running over the ends is a good thing! It seals up the wood and protects it from absorbing moisture. Just sand the ends before assembly to insure a nice fit!


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