# CA PROBLEMS



## Leather Man (Nov 3, 2010)

Have any of you that use CA ever had problems after using it? If I get the slightest whif of the fumes while using CA it stuffs my nose so bad I can not breath for two to three weeks without using a nose spray. I do wear a resperator but, sometimes I breath some of the fumes and it hits me the next day. I also had my DC running as well. Any ideas as to what else I can do to help? I do like the CA/BLO finish. Thanks for any ideas you can help with.
Ben


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## rogerpjr (Nov 3, 2010)

I am an Industrial Hygienist (worker health and safety) by trade and I thought people may want some info on CA.

CA (and all isocyanate products) is considered a sensitizer.  The more a person is exposed to it, the more sensitized they become and the reaction usually occurs quicker and more severely over time. However, everyone is affected differently to exposure, either by contact or breathing, and some are not affected at all.  Typical reactions from breathing are with respiratory problems.  Reactions can be mild to so severe that breathing can actually stop.  People with respiratory ailments like asthma are most susceptible to severe reactions.  Contact can result in the same symptoms, but usually cause a skin reaction that can be just itching or buning to hives.  Personally, I have become more sensitzed over the years to CA vapors with a reaction that causes extreme tearing in my eyes.  I try to keep use of the CA to in front of my dust collector hood so the vapors are pulled away from my face.

If you are going to wear a respirator, be sure it fits properly and that the filter cartridges you buy are good for removing the isocyanate vapors.  Also you will need to change them periodically.  Changeout time is dependant on how long you use them and how much is pulled through the cartridge.  All manufacturers of respirators will have a web site that can tell you what their cartridges will remove and most will have a formula for changeout frequency.  Many other things affect the cartridges capacity to filter, and once they are unsealed they are continually absorbing contaminants from the air whether you are wearing the respirator or not.  Keep the respirator clean and stored in a zip lock bag.  It is better to remove the cartridges and put them in a separate bag to help extend their life.

Hope this information is helpful.


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## Wood Butcher (Nov 3, 2010)

Thanks for the useful info Roger.  I've been doing the CA finish for 6 years or so and although the fumes occasionally burns my eyes I haven't experienced any severe reactions.  I've found that having a small, 7", electric fan blowing across the work area so the fumes don't accumulate too much.  I guess it is one of the risks we take using the stuff.
WB


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## PenMan1 (Nov 3, 2010)

Do you have the same problems with the odorless CA?  If you haven't tried it, you might consider taking a look. I'm not recommending giving up the mask and the dust collector. To me, the odorless stuff doesn't put off as many obnoxious fumes.


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## Leather Man (Nov 4, 2010)

Thanks guys for the responses. I have a set of new filters now, but that is like shutting the barn door after the horses are out. I thought my old ones were OK, but I guess not. I do put the resperator and the filters in a zip-lok bag. Will the oderless CA work the same as regular CA? It is more expensive but may be worth it.
Thanks again guys.
Ben


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## IPD_Mrs (Nov 4, 2010)

These are the kind of posts that make this site a great place.  Thanks for the post Roger, I am sure you have helped some people with this information.



rogerpjr said:


> I am an Industrial Hygienist (worker health and safety) by trade and I thought people may want some info on CA.
> 
> CA (and all isocyanate products) is considered a sensitizer. The more a person is exposed to it, the more sensitized they become and the reaction usually occurs quicker and more severely over time. However, everyone is affected differently to exposure, either by contact or breathing, and some are not affected at all. Typical reactions from breathing are with respiratory problems. Reactions can be mild to so severe that breathing can actually stop. People with respiratory ailments like asthma are most susceptible to severe reactions. Contact can result in the same symptoms, but usually cause a skin reaction that can be just itching or buning to hives. Personally, I have become more sensitzed over the years to CA vapors with a reaction that causes extreme tearing in my eyes. I try to keep use of the CA to in front of my dust collector hood so the vapors are pulled away from my face.
> 
> ...


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## johncrane (Nov 4, 2010)

Ditto! on the Elec fan.


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## rogerpjr (Nov 4, 2010)

Hate to break the bad news to you all, but it doesn't matter if the CA is odorless or not.  As long as it is CA, it exhibits all the same hazards.


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## Leather Man (Nov 6, 2010)

RATS!!!!!!!!!!
Ben


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## chrisk (Nov 6, 2010)

@Leather Man
I have exactly the same problem. Last spring I bought a half respirator with some filters after a dubious advice from the vendor. The allergic reaction decreased somehow but didn't disappear. I then picked another set of filters (organic + inorganic vapors + ammonia protection) and it was worse.
After this last experience, I ordered some odourless CA from Mannie and has yet to try it. I also ordered a 3M 6000 series full face respirator in order to protect my eyes which are also sensitive to CA vapors. Now for the filters I talked to a 3M technician who suggested two sets of filters: ABE1 and P2 class. I don't know if you follow the same codes in the US but I think that those are corresponding to the following filters respectively: 3M 6003 Organic Vapor / Acid Gas Cartridge
3M 5P71 P95 Particulate Filter.


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## rogerpjr (Nov 6, 2010)

The European codes aren't the same, but they are easy to convert to the US designations.  3M is a top supplier of respiratory equipment and you can't go wrong with their products as long as you get the proper advice.  Your rep gave you good information.  You probably didn't need the acid gas protection, but it doesn't the organic vapor capacity much.  A straight OV cartridge would be fine with the additon of the P2 (N95) particulate filter over it.


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## sbwertz (Nov 6, 2010)

I bought the lathe hood from Rockler and removed the clamp assembly, replacing it with a BIG magnet.  I do all my ca/blo finishing with the DC running and with a fan behind me.  I find the hood pulls almost all the vapors into the DC and the fan takes care of any stray fumes.


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## steeler fan1 (Nov 6, 2010)

sbwertz said:


> I bought the lathe hood from Rockler and removed the clamp assembly, replacing it with a BIG magnet. I do all my ca/blo finishing with the DC running and with a fan behind me. I find the hood pulls almost all the vapors into the DC and the fan takes care of any stray fumes.


 

I've read where several people have mentioned the DC when applying CA. Perhaps your shop is a lot cleaner than mine but how do you avoid getting dust particles on your finish?

I've been experiencing similar problem when using CA. I'm to the point I'm simply going to try a different finishing method. Sadly, I was getting to where I was getting good at CA finish:frown:.

Carl


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## Spats139 (Nov 6, 2010)

I use a North 7700-30 with their N7500-1 (NIOSH OV) cartridges; it was what the supplier recommended, and it works well for me. 

In addition to the respirator, you may have to modify your turning  practices as well. I don't do CA work until last, and then I don't  remove the respirator until AFTER I've left the contaminated  environment. I mean not even to take it off and put it down as I walk  out the door.

Also, I started to wear disposable gloves when working with CA after I thought I had reacted to getting some of it on my skin. From Roger's post it appears that I was correct on that.


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## Padre (Nov 6, 2010)

When I use CA my eyes, nose and mouth go into revolt.  

I had to do something, and sometimes people laugh, but I use this when I am doing CA.  It blocks everthing and protects my eyes, nose and mouth.  It's only @ $13.00 and mine has lasted a year so far.


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## Leather Man (Nov 6, 2010)

Roger and anyone else,
I am using the North 7700-30 half mask with 7581P100  NIOSH OV/P100 filter. You mentioned using a P2 (N95) particulate filter over it. Can you elaborate a little more on the use of this added filter and how you attach it to the filter I am using? There does not seem to be any way to attach it to my filter.
Thanks
Ben


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## chrisk (Nov 6, 2010)

@rogerpjr
Thanks a lot for the advise Roger. I'll also try simple OV cartridges. I hope that the dealer has those in stock for he had to order a box of 80 P2s (N95) just for me and he was kind enough to allow me to buy only 10 of those filters.
Also, could you please be more specific about this? If one buys cartridges with the whole range of chemical guards (organic + inorganic vapors + acid gas + ammonia, etc) will this be detrimental to the specific OV protection? For this is what I understood by reading your post above. 

@Leather Man
With the 3M full face respirators there are some "filter retainers" specifically for the particulate filters: 3M 501 Filter Retainer


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## Leather Man (Nov 6, 2010)

Thanks Chris.
Ben


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## rogerpjr (Nov 7, 2010)

This is going to be a bit hard to explain in this forum.  I'll try to put it real simple and still get the point across.  Let me know if you get confused.

First, you can't and shouldn't mix cartridges, filters and masks from different manufacturers.  Everything needs to be from one manufacturer in order to meet the certification standards from NIOSH (US) or other approving agency (anywhere else).  You also can't put parts from one mask model onto another, even if they are from the same manufacturer.  I've seen a few that will interchange, but you are asking for trouble by doing this as you may not be fully protected.

The cartridges have a finite volume capacity.  I'm going to use a ficticious example, so don't worry about the actual sizes, etc.  Say a cartridge has the capacity of 8 ounces (240 ml for you Chris!) of material that absorbs non-specific organic vapors.  (organics are compounds that have carbon atoms in them)  In order to put some other material in the cartridge to remove something else from the air, you will have to remove some of the OV absorbing material.  There are lots of overlaps in what the filtering materials can absorb so it is not a direct one for one exchange.  Most of the absorbants in the cartridges are non-specific to a compound, so they will absorb lots of other things in the air as well.  Something else to keep in mind is that some compounds can actually block another from absorbing on its specific absorbant so there is never a way to tell how effective the material is working at removing what you specifically want and how long it will continue to work.  Even moisture in the air can absorb onto the absorbant and reduce its capacity.  That is why you need to keep the cartridges in a sealed plastic bag when not being used as they continue to absorb compounds in the air whether you are using them or not, thus reducing the capacity and life.  That is why air purifying respirator cartridges should not be used for compounds that don't have adequate warning properties like an odor or taste.  You just can't tell when they are actually at or near their capacity to absorb.  This is not real critical in the hobby situation for most compounds, but could be life threatening in an industrial situation.  And they should NEVER be used where there may not be enough oxygen in the air.  It won't help if you are filtering the caontaminant from the air you breath if there is not enough oxygen content to keep you alive.

As to the filters, there is a system that defines how efficient a filter is at removing particles in the air and whether it can be used where there are oil mists in the air.  to make it easier, here is a link to a chart that describes the system for you.  Non-US users will need to convert the NIOSH designations to their system, but the meanings are essentially the same.

http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/npptl/topics/respirators/disp_part/

Each manufacturer has a different system for attaching filters to their cartridges and some attach the filters permanently.  In the hobby situation like ours, it is usually better to have separate filters as they will clog up with dust before the capacity of the absobant is reached.  And don't try to get cheap and clean them, replace with new filters.

Hope this didn't confuse anyone.  You can PM me if you have specific questions.


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## rogerpjr (Nov 7, 2010)

Ben,

Go here to get info on your mask, cartridges and filters.

http://www.northsafety.com/TriggerW...ItemGuid=648692b9-c72a-4846-b4e4-54428d79524d


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## chrisk (Nov 7, 2010)

Roger thanks a lot, you're great. Your explanation is very clear (I'll try to order OV cartridges) and the NIOSH database impressive.


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## Leather Man (Nov 8, 2010)

Thank you Roger for your help. The filters I am using now must be the correct ones. They are the NIOSH OV/P100. If you think these are wrong let me know.
Thanks again.
Ben


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## Nickfff (Apr 16, 2011)

Roger,
is there a simple mask that can be purchased from home depot that can block ca fumes from your mouth/nose/lungs?

Thanks,
Nick


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## TellicoTurning (Apr 17, 2011)

I get the same reaction that Roger does... burning and tearing in the eyes... I've found that running the DC and working in front of it, plus having a fan at my back to help move the fumes away from me alleviate most of the problems.  Since I'm not doing as many pens as before, it's less of a problem for me, but I still use lots of CA with my bowl turning... if I have bowl blanks with cracks or voids, I'll use CA to fill them... you can generate a lot of fumes when putting a couple of ounces into a bowl blank.... a lot of times I'll take that outside the shop where the fumes can be dispersed quickly... not so much problems that way.


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## Geppetto (Apr 17, 2011)

*This thread is a great reminder*

Thank you everyone for having this conversation.  At this point I don't have a reaction to the CA.  I have worn an OV/P100 grade respirator for many years for other types of finishing work. And now of course I wear it when I'm using CA.  

This thread really reminded me of the need buy some new cartridges.  I installed my last set a several months ago.  I looked for more at a couple of big box stores but my respirator is an older model that takes round canisters and they don't stock them anymore.  After reading all of this, I got my butt in gear and found them on the web.

I get LOTS of great design and technical information from this site and I also get helpful safety reminders like this one.  Thanks again!


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