# No my business....



## Warren White (May 5, 2015)

I showed one of my acrylic slimline pens to a friend and he wanted to buy it.  This has happened twice and I don't know how to respond.

I haven't sold any of the pens I have made; I just enjoy making them and giving them to friends and family for special occasions.  I don't want to get into the 'business' of selling pens, but I don't know what they might be worth.  It might be fun to be able to buy some supplies...

Would those of you who sell pens care to give me a price range for someone who insists on buying one?  These are CS Apprentice Fancy Slimline Pen Kits, and the acrylic is also theirs.

Thanks!
Warren


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## WriteON (May 5, 2015)

Warren White said:


> I showed one of my acrylic slimline pens to a friend and he wanted to buy it.  This has happened twice and I don't know how to respond.
> 
> I haven't sold any of the pens I have made; I just enjoy making them and giving them to friends and family for special occasions.  I don't want to get into the 'business' of selling pens, but I don't know what they might be worth.  It might be fun to be able to buy some supplies...
> 
> ...


I add $25-50 to the cost of the kit and blank ....or more depending on materials. I do not sell pens either but do get requests. If I give a pen to a friend and one of their friends wants one I quote accordingly  For example... Deer Hunter Bolts $70-75...Faith,Hope, Love...$70, American Pat $75. Very interesting about the Faith, Hope pen. The person loved it. Showed it to their church members and many wanted one. I declined. I also turned down an order for 25 slimline at $49ea. It's not a business ....  just a hobby that I'm not a slave to. I do donate to fund raisers...(raffles, silent auction). 
When people ask how much and how long to make.... I reply.. a few days...gluing, drying, step by step processing, etc. As far as how much do they cost to produce... Lathe plus everything to support it (dust collector, tools, consumables, recently installed Air Conditioner to garage workshop....blah blah blah.... I say it cost a lot.


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## wyone (May 5, 2015)

This is a discussion that never ends...  I have asked it myself..  lol..  I think the general consensus is 2-3 times your material costs.  That typically will cover your labor and the material.  So if you have $10 in kit and blank..  somewhere $20-$30.  How long does it take you to make it?  If it takes 30 minutes, that would make you an hourly wage of $20-$40 an hour.   Of course somewhere you need to account for the CA, the Sandpaper, all those things that we tend to forget are consumables.   Is it an especially awesome blank or finished pen?  Might be worth more.  But the real trick is, if you sell one to a friend, they might tell someone who is not a friend and they might want the friend and family discount as well.  Then again.. if you ask what they might pay and they say $15..  will you be insulted??  It is a tricky thing selling..


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## TonyL (May 5, 2015)

Google Etsy "Custom-made" pens. That will give you a range as to what sellers are ASKING for their pens. You are sure to see several that are _similar_ to yours. You will be surprised by the range. I searched quickly and saw 22 to 40...which is somewhat  meaningless: Beautiful pen though!


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## ttm7 (May 6, 2015)

oops, i don't sell pens or other things i make i give all of them away: if the person really likes the item i usually say do you really? then its yours enjoy. i figure when i sell stuff its no longer my hobby; now its another JOB.


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## Chasper (May 6, 2015)

This is a forum that is visible to all visitors, including non-members.  Please keep pricing discussions in the Marketing & Shows forum which is only available to members.


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## Neededwill (May 6, 2015)

When this happens I tell them to give me a donation which covers my materials used.


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## glenspens (May 6, 2015)

$25.00 is what i get,  if they say that to much i tell them wallmart has pen for under $1.00. The way i look at it they are not buying a pen as but  your skill/art in making it .....works for me


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## BocoteMark (May 6, 2015)

Chasper said:


> This is a forum that is visible to all visitors, including non-members.  Please keep pricing discussions in the Marketing & Shows forum which is only available to members.






I disagree.  As craftsmen and craftswomen we pour our souls into the things that we hand make.  I think that it is important for the non-makers to see just how much we agonize over selling the things we make.

I think, at least in the area I live and the culture that I am part of, hand made items are undervalued by the masses because they can often obtain a mass produced functional analog (a pen from walmart) for a small fraction of the cost and labor of a hand made pen.  Most people never seem to account for just how much work and skill went into a handmade item.  This is born out both in what some are not willing to pay and also how they roughly they handle some handmade items.


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## ed4copies (May 6, 2015)

A "business" sells products to STAY in business.

If you decide to sell a pen now and then, even the IRS will not call you a business.

You make a pen, a person asks to buy the pen----SELL it, you CAN make MORE!!

As Chasper has pointed out, "penturning" is visible to anyone.  So, it's not a good place to discuss pricing.  However, bear in mind that CSUSA calls these pens "apprentice" for a reason---they are not meant to be durable, they are likely to wear, so tell your "paying friend" what to expect, and price accordingly.

When you develop a few "paying friends", you can use the proceeds to purchase "artisan" components, which will raise the level of the pens you gift, as well as the pens you "sell".

Until you sell several hundred a year, don't worry, you are NOT a business.


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## thewishman (May 6, 2015)

Ask for enough money to make you happy to see the pen go.


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## raar25 (May 6, 2015)

I think I am at $25 for this type of pen.


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## WriteON (May 6, 2015)

ed4copies said:


> As Chasper has pointed out, "penturning" is visible to anyone.  So, it's not a good place to discuss pricing.



Agreed that the less said the better but I don't see a problem having an open forum. Lets educate the buyers. If I make a special item for a friend or someone that is paying a good fee I will send them step by step progress pictures. 
The people that want your product will jump on it. The ones looking for price or a bargain or question your fee schedule let them shop elsewhere. This is a talented craft with personalized service. The biggest problem I have is when I give something away they want more...and I charge for the kit plus $10 and they want more. I stopped that immediately. I did give a beautiful gold Magnum Bolt with cocobolo to a friend....as I gave it to him I said One and Done. I had a request for a Civil War Pen (from a neighbor and friend) to be used as a birthday present gift. The handed me $75.. I thank them but gave $45 back to them. 

I think this is a great discussion. By now the OP has a feel for handling his goods.


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## gbpens (May 6, 2015)

$25 to $30 depending on where you live.


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## BocoteMark (May 6, 2015)

Can someone at least explain -why- it is a good idea to keep the public in the dark about pricing?

I genuinely don't understand why that would help either the seller's or the buyer's situation.


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## ed4copies (May 6, 2015)

BocoteMark said:


> Can someone at least explain -why- it is a good idea to keep the public in the dark about pricing?
> 
> I genuinely don't understand why that would help either the seller's or the buyer's situation.



The theory, as I see it, is this:

Suppose you knew the materials in the $40,000 car you are looking at were valued at about $8000.  How would this impact your "shopping"?

Clearly, the IAP does not DEMAND you post in any particular forum.  But the marketing forum was closed to the public so we COULD comfortably discuss and debate ways to figure our pricing that are fair to the penmaker as well as the buyer.

We are not "keeping the public in the dark about pricing".  Once any penmmaker arrives at a price that he wants to charge, he publishes that price, as the value he believes his work should command.  The potential buyer then decides (by buying or not) what he (the buyer) thinks is a reasonable cost.  

Very interested buyers can watch the IAP and see all the vendors' sites, so they can find out what your costs are, if they WANT to be "enlightened".

When we started doing shows in Milwaukee, MANY women, looking at my pens (mostly plastics) informed me that "my husband can do that".  This implies that my craftsmanship is easily duplicated (which may be true).  However, one husband accompanying his wife, pointed out that the initial investment in tools and a lathe would be well north of $500 and that his "FIRST pen" was not likely to look like mine.    These are the factors that most penmakers know and it is "given" in pricing discussions.  Most potential customers don't think of these factors when evaluating "margins".

FWIW,
Ed


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## BocoteMark (May 6, 2015)

Ok. Thanks Ed.  That was a well thought out response.  

I agree with your observations that a lot (the vast majority) customers don't take into account all the extras (lathe, tooling, etc) that goes into making pens.  

I guess that's why I wanted that kind of information to be made available.  So that any potential customer who made it as far as IAP could see all the considerations (raw materials, tooling, years of trial and error) that make up a finished product (and why those things need to be considered in the price).

Thanks,
Mark


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## ed4copies (May 6, 2015)

BocoteMark said:


> Ok. Thanks Ed.  That was a well thought out response.
> 
> I agree with your observations that a lot (the vast majority) customers don't take into account all the extras (lathe, tooling, etc) that goes into making pens.
> 
> ...



Then, every time we discussed price in the open forum, we would have to, once again, enumerate all these costs.  Or else, the viewer MAY overlook them.

To be honest, these factors USUALLY come up whenever pricing is discussed---but in the Marketing forums, we HOPE all the viewers are aware of them and we don't have to rehash, every thread.

In the real world, this was probably a "pipe dream":biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

So, my position remains:  Say WHAT you want, WHERE you want.  Just don't be surprised if some "field experienced old farts" don't say too much, when the world of potential customers can see their answers.


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## Warren White (May 6, 2015)

*Thank you all!*

I have really been enlightened by the discussion.

I am reminded of a cartoon I saw at Marc Adams School of Woodworking.  It depicted two women discussing a husband's woodworking hobby.  They had talked about the equipment he had, and while holding up a rather simple looking paper towel holder, the wife of the woodworker asked the other lady if she wanted to buy a $1500 towel holder!

There is no way to recoup all of the costs unless you are really in the business.  I respect those that are, but to me my hobby is very similar to my wife's passion for making quilts and receiving blankets.  She makes over 100 a year and donates them through our Church and other local community resources.  She is legally blind, but does magnificent work despite her vision deficit.  In fact, I started pen turning because while she is at her sewing machine I was often just watching TV or doing nothing worthwhile.  My interest in pen turning gave me something to do in my spare time, and it gave me something I can produce that gives me a lot of joy.

I was surprised at the discussion about keeping the costs private.  I am sorry if I violated the rules, either written or not.  I certainly didn't want to offend any who make their living at selling their pens.  Unless you have had some exposure to turning pens (or whatever else you make with your heart and your hands) you can't really appreciate what it takes to make them.  I stand in awe of many of the pens you folks make.  I doubt that I will ever have that skill level, but each pen completed makes me smile.  When they are appreciated by someone I show them to, that is just icing on the cake.  What was offered in response to my query were the very valued opinions of those who either routinely sell as well as those who, like me, don't.  The perspective of both groups gave me a lot to think about.  I thank each one of you who responded.

Best wishes to all!
Warren


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## wyone (May 6, 2015)

Maybe we could ask the ADMIN to move this to the marketing section?  I am guilty that I did not realize this was public and marketing was member only


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## jttheclockman (May 6, 2015)

I am not sure how many people come to this site to steal info on pen pricing so they can use that as leverage when they try to purchase one. This type question gets asked hundreds of times on FB and other social media. So it is out there.

The thing I would be more concerned with if you really want to be paranoid is how much technical info gets stolen or hijacked from discussions that are open to the public or even members only. Every time someone shows a pen and then the how did you do that questions start and all the technical stuff comes out. So easy to make up a  sign-on name and join to infiltrate the site.  This is one reason that you do not see many of the talented pen makers show their work here for fear of being ripped off and it has happened. 

Now do not get me wrong this site is great for showing and sharing and learning and this is what makes it a target as well as other sites that deal with specific projects but that is the nature of the internet. 

Break thru ideas are tough to come by. I will have to say though I am surprised as of yet the watch part pen has not been copied and shipped overseas for duplication and distribution as the computer blank pen was. 

Anyway food for thought. 

To the OP and his dilemma on selling his pens. Look through the past posts for ideas on pricing but be careful when charging one person and someone else wants the same pen. I love the people that say all they do is make pens to give away. It must be nice to have alot of money to be able to do that.  This is not a cheap hobby.


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## WriteON (May 6, 2015)

I'm more concerned with pens being sold way too cheap online.  This thread is not rocking any boats.


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## Rockytime (May 6, 2015)

jttheclockman said:


> <SNIP> To the OP and his dilemma on selling his pens. Look through the past posts for ideas on pricing but be careful when charging one person and someone else wants the same pen. I love the people that say all they do is make pens to give away. It must be nice to have alot of money to be able to do that.  This is not a cheap hobby.



I give most of my pens away. In the last year or so I have sold three pens. They were bolt action pens. I sold them for $50.00 each. The sale was by accident. I gave one to a friend who showed it to someone who decided they had to have one and bought two. One for himself and another for his friend. The the third was to my insurance agent. Everything else I have given away. The sales were nice but I make the pens for my own amusement and gifts. Christmas is just around the corner so I am making bottle stoppers for gifts. There are ten people in the clock shop where I work my retirement job. The stoppers are very nice and relatively inexpensive. The hobby is not cheap for sure and i am not wealthy or I would have quit my retirement job long ago. But it is a stress reliever and fun. But then everyone on this forum already knows that.


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## jttheclockman (May 7, 2015)

Rockytime said:


> jttheclockman said:
> 
> 
> > <SNIP> To the OP and his dilemma on selling his pens. Look through the past posts for ideas on pricing but be careful when charging one person and someone else wants the same pen. I love the people that say all they do is make pens to give away. It must be nice to have alot of money to be able to do that.  This is not a cheap hobby.
> ...




Les

Being you quoted me all I can say is good for you and hope you continue to enjoy the hobby. I too give a few away but it is also nice when people are actually willing to pay real money for something you made. It gives a different satisfaction other than the one you get with giving away the items. Plus it does help pay for the toys.


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## Smitty37 (May 8, 2015)

If you're making pens for a hobby and someone asks to buy one, you have a number of options.
1. You can say you don't sell them but they can find lots of people on line who do.  If it's a friend you can offer to give it to them.

2.  You can sell it for whatever price makes you feel good with no concern over what someone else might charge.  

3. You can try to fit the price you charge to what others might charge.

4. You can waste a lot of time and energy trying to come up with a formula based on other peoples formula's.

3 and 4 for most hobbists are a waste of time and energy first because what other people are selling for makes no difference on casual sales now and then and second the formulas don't work for most people.

Also keep in mind that it is one thing to have pens for sale at a given price and quite another to sell them at that price.  Most pen turners here and elsewhere do not have to beat customers away with a big stick.


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## 79spitfire (May 9, 2015)

I made a pen as a gift. It was a 'picture' pen with a specific airplane on a cloudy backgound. It took several attempts to get it 'just right'. 

If I were to sell that at what could be considered a 'profit' the cost would be in the range of most Montblanc offerings..

As a retirement gift it was 'priceless'...


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## Smitty37 (May 9, 2015)

79spitfire said:


> I made a pen as a gift. It was a 'picture' pen with a specific airplane on a cloudy backgound. It took several attempts to get it 'just right'.
> 
> *If I were to sell that at what could be considered a 'profit' the cost would be in the range of most Montblanc offerings..*
> 
> As a retirement gift it was 'priceless'...


Considered a profit by you or by the IRS?  The IRS says you can't include your own labor in the cost - so what you might think of as a loss they would consider a profit. (since you gave it away, you don't have to think about that though)


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## 79spitfire (May 9, 2015)

Yea, the IRS is like that....


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## vtgaryw (May 9, 2015)

A number of years ago, a friend and I made a cedar strip canoe.  We put a *lot* of hours into.  We built it in my basement so my wife got to see and listen to the progress (or lack thereof.)  She thought we spent more time debating what to do next and how to it, and she figured the whole project was an excuse to drink beer.

We were asked when we were done if we would sell one.  Sure, I said, based on our time, it'll be $ 20,000.  

Multipliers of material costs are an okay rough guidelines for some products, but you can't use it for complicated or specialized products like one-of-a-kind pens.

-gary


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## chartle (May 10, 2015)

vtgaryw said:


> A number of years ago, a friend and I made a cedar strip canoe.  We put a *lot* of hours into.  We built it in my basement so my wife got to see and listen to the progress (or lack thereof.)  She thought we spent more time debating what to do next and how to it, and she figured the whole project was an excuse to drink beer.
> 
> We were asked when we were done if we would sell one.  Sure, I said, based on our time, it'll be $ 20,000.
> 
> ...



I make staff handles using Turks Head Knots Like these. Note not my work






It uses a maybe 30 feet of paracord, 3 bucks max, but maybe 6 hours to do. No one would pay $120 for it.


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## 79spitfire (May 10, 2015)

It's amazing how 'easy' is is for some to inform me how 'easily' I make some things. I just ask them to bring me some of their work, so I can see what I'm doing wrong. 

They tend to shuffle off and never come back...

Go figure...


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## Smitty37 (May 10, 2015)

79spitfire said:


> It's amazing how 'easy' is is for some to inform me how 'easily' I make some things. I just ask them to bring me some of their work, so I can see what I'm doing wrong.
> 
> They tend to shuffle off and never come back...
> 
> Go figure...


Well if you're selling pens you need to be carefull - they might actually know how easy it is to make most pens.....


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## 79spitfire (May 10, 2015)

Yes after a couple of hundred, it's easy. But was it the first time?


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## Smitty37 (May 10, 2015)

79spitfire said:


> Yes after a couple of hundred, it's easy. But was it the first time?


 Well I didn't find it very hard the first time.  Watched a PSI video, then turned a pen.  I had never used a lathe before in my life. I now use some different techniques, finishes etc but I've still never turned anything but pens.


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## 79spitfire (May 11, 2015)

I'm proud of how fast you learn. Have a nice day.


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## target64 (May 13, 2015)

Warren White said:


> I showed one of my acrylic slimline pens to a friend and he wanted to buy it.  This has happened twice and I don't know how to respond.
> 
> I haven't sold any of the pens I have made; I just enjoy making them and giving them to friends and family for special occasions.  I don't want to get into the 'business' of selling pens, but I don't know what they might be worth.  It might be fun to be able to buy some supplies...
> 
> ...


IMHO-a nice lunch and call it a day.


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