# Vendor Marketing



## jeff (Aug 16, 2010)

Plenty of heat is being generated around the forum right now over the issue of "vendor market research." For the purpose of this discussion, let's define that as a vendor doing, for example, some or all of the following:

asking "If we made X, would you buy it?"
asking "How much would you pay for X?" 
asking "How can we serve you better?"
posting a poll about product color or style preferences.
A provision of the AUP says, "Advertisements to buy, sell, or swap belong in the Individual Classifieds Forum or the Business Classifieds Forum. Ads found elsewhere may be deleted or moved. Shill posts, spam, or sneaky marketing practices will get you ejected."

In response to an annoying flood of market research by one individual over two years ago, I put this policy in effect. I believe that because I never rescinded that policy, anything that smells remotely like market research, even to one person, has become a taboo practice. Some also believe that the AUP's reference to "sneaky marketing practices" is a reference to market research. It is not.

Here's my position. 

Market research is not a bad thing. It enables vendors to discover and understand WHAT WE WANT them to provide for us. Market research is going to be done one way or another. Vendors will GUESS, based on what they read in the forums, and maybe guess wrong; or they will try something and if it flops they've wasted our money and theirs, leaving less money for them to develop and us to buy what we REALLY WANT; or they'll just keep selling the same old stuff and although maybe natural selection will weed it out, it'll take a lot longer than if we just let them ASK.

The IAP is about education. We educate each other, and I think it's reasonable to say that we should also educate our vendors. After all, what fun is penmaking if we can't buy what we REALLY WANT??

So, to finally clarify and codify the rules for market research, there's a poll attached to this thread. Once the votes are in, I'll revise the AUP as needed to make the rules on vendor marketing as clear as possible.


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## jeff (Aug 16, 2010)

Feel free to comment, please keep it on topic.


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## greenmtnguy (Aug 16, 2010)

We need it here somewhere or product development will stagnate. If everyone knows where it is, there can be no debate about it's being in the proper location. Let the voting begin.


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## Gofer (Aug 16, 2010)

I would rather see the vendors work with us to get what WE want than take a stab in the dark and try and sell us some crap we would never want.  I don't mind the market research for 2 reasons, I get an idea of what is selling in different areas and I get loads of new ideas.

As far as the heated threads go ... I have better things to do with my time than read them, like say turning a pen : )

Bruce


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## alphageek (Aug 16, 2010)

Jeff,

Here is my thought.   I'm perfectly ok with market research.  I think a new forum "might" make sense, but even if you had a new one... I think there is places here that most research fits into.. For examples: a new laser kit in SOYP, or marketing questions about ink usage in Marketing.   

There is several people that start of with a cool new idea, which is quickly followed by "are you going to sell that?".   As long as the outright selling is in the right place, I think its good here.    We only have a handful of really active vendors on here...  I have a feeling that many of the others do their research 'silently'.  I like the active approach better!


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## Caden_Hrabak (Aug 16, 2010)

I completely agree with Alphageek


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## Phunky_2003 (Aug 16, 2010)

I am ok with the market research.  I chose one on a seperate forum.  The reason I chose a seperate forum was I think you'd be adding even more work to those moderating.  Having to move this add or that add to other more appropriate places.  

I think they need to be allowed to do some research and marketing to be able to completely fulfill the needs of turners.


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## rjwolfe3 (Aug 16, 2010)

I would like to see both a separate forum and it be allowed in forums like SOYP and such.


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## steeler fan1 (Aug 16, 2010)

My view is rather simplistic.  Let it be open, if it offends someone then ignore the post. No one is forced to read anything. I like the idea of being asked to provide feedback and like reading about new products and processes. Its an oppertunity to gleen new ideas and insights. We're all big boys and girls, I don't think we'll be coherced(sp) into buying something we don't want. 

I'd prefer that than the personal sniping thats been cropping up lately.


I didn't just fall off the turnip truck

Carl


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## OKLAHOMAN (Aug 16, 2010)

Jeff, I agree with Dale a new forum MIGHT make sense but when I'm showed a new blank like feathers, carbon fiber etc in the SOYP forum the first thought I have is as Dale said "are they going to be for sale", you need to allow vendors the opportunity to show their wares and how they would look,work or help you sell.


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## TellicoTurning (Aug 16, 2010)

I'm with the guys above... I have no problem with market research or any research in any of the forums... I always have the option to pass or ignore any thread that I don't want to read... I do have a problem with some of the "brotherly" fussing I see, but again.. I have my option to pass and go to next forum... I don't read every thread on the  forum anyway.. I pick and choose as my interest dictates.


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## Displaced Canadian (Aug 16, 2010)

I don't consider a vendor showing a pen made of a new materiel in SOYP market research. I don't think we need a special forum for market research. I think it is good that we have vendors trying to find out what kind of products we would like to see. I was not here 2 years ago so I don't know what happened then. There may need to be some rules in place to keep whatever happened then from happening again.


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## mredburn (Aug 16, 2010)

There have been in the past a few posts that were "if I buy or before I spend ....Is anyone interested in buying. A couple of them if not in violation of the letter of the law seemed to be contrary to the intent as I understood it. A seperate forum would allow these type of threads to be posted without recourse.  Would this forum be allowed on the front page or would it be held back like all the classified threads? 
Without a forum you may have to reestablish the guidlines for such posts, where they are allowed and in what context. Perhaps clarity is all you need.

Mike


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## PTownSubbie (Aug 16, 2010)

alphageek said:


> Jeff,
> 
> Here is my thought. I'm perfectly ok with market research. I think a new forum "might" make sense, but even if you had a new one... I think there is places here that most research fits into.. For examples: a new laser kit in SOYP, or marketing questions about ink usage in Marketing.
> 
> There is several people that start of with a cool new idea, which is quickly followed by "are you going to sell that?". As long as the outright selling is in the right place, I think its good here. We only have a handful of really active vendors on here... I have a feeling that many of the others do their research 'silently'. I like the active approach better!


 
I don't think there is any problem with a vendor posting a new product in the SOYP forums as long is it is shown in pen form. Afterall, if I could make those products I would be happy to show off my talents also. :wink: They are not trying to sell them there and the vendors are good about not marketing when they do show their products. I guess it is a form of marketing when it is a finished product but then again it is not overt and stating that you can buy these at my website or such. I guess that these are my opinions and I think others will vary.

I think the rub is more over the overt marketing that some feel takes place. I personally don't see the uproars lately as overt marketing as much as informative posts...


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## BRobbins629 (Aug 16, 2010)

Market research is a very important tool for any vendor and there is no better place for pen materials research than on this site.  My vote is for a separate forum, which I think is to the benefit of the sellers and those who like to participate with opinion.  It makes the intent very clear.  So far, no one had offended me in other forums so I'll stick around in any scenario if you will have me.


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## soligen (Aug 16, 2010)

I don't see the option I would choose.  I'm not sure a special forum is needed, but there are some foums where market research should not be.  Specifically, any forums dedicated to "how to" should not have market reserch.  Examples are Penturning, Advanced Pen Turning, Finishes, Photographing your pen, etc.  Market research would polute these.

But other forums like SYOP, Casual Conv, classifieds, etc - these I have no problem with market research.


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## greenmtnguy (Aug 16, 2010)

I think we all like to see a new idea in pen form. SOYP in a great place to post prototypes, we did, and if it is a hit, people ask, is it for sale. However, for components, material, supplies being marketed for approval, perhaps a separate forum is the answer. Then, if the post offends someone, it can be moved to the proper area and the problem is solved. This makes the moderators jobs easier. Maybe a forum-would you buy this?


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## pensmyth (Aug 16, 2010)

Jeff,
I've seen no inappropriate actions taken by any members of IAP who have businesses that cater to wood turning and pen making. I anxiously wait for new posts from certain member/vendors showing off or looking for input on new ideas and designs that allow us to further enjoy this "hobby". I don't feel a separate forum is needed for these type of postings.


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## RAdams (Aug 16, 2010)

I think any of the options given would be cool as long as everyone had to follow the same guidelines. 


PS. Thanks for doing this Jeff.


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## greenmtnguy (Aug 16, 2010)

Will you kindly let this thread progress without sarcasm. This is a constructive thread, not more bashing.


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## Pens By Scott (Aug 16, 2010)

I don't see any reason why not to allow it.  Likely in it's own forum, to allow for those that do not want to "weed through it" can keep away from it.
Just a thought, a nominal fee, or donations could be asked for...  Just thinking more along the lines of donations to the site to keep it up and running, or for competitions.

Another idea, on the "If we had XXX, would you use it," not sure if it is feasible, but competitions around it if XXX makes it to market?  Prizes to be donated?


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## aggromere (Aug 16, 2010)

I for one am glad vendors are active on the forums.  I regularly purchase supplies, kits, blanks and other items I need, and I get them all from vendors that are active on the forums.  It is weren't for that, I would be missing out on some great stuff that you can't get anywhere else.

Personally, I would encourage folks with a unique skill set or shop set up to always show jigs, tools, parts and techinques and ask if there was any interest in them.  You might be surprised at what we "lesser" pen turners would buy to advance our craft.

How else would I know about bushings from JohnnyCNC, Tool rest and sanding mills from R.Herrell, (i think that's his name), glue from Manny, blanks from Issac and Big Rob, fancy blanks from Ed and Dawn, pen parts from the silverpenparts guy, boxes from the box guys, pen stands from cnccutter and so on.  If I left anyone out that I buy from, sorry, but you get the drift.  I Love Our Vendors!!!!!

I really don't know about where stuff is posted, I just see threads as new or old.  If i'm interested I check it out, if not I don't.  But I can certainly see that a straight up plea for business or new product development should be in a specific forum, I'm all for that, but if someone occassionally mis-posts, it's no biggy to me.  Or if they just post into whatever forum they think is appropriate, that's fine too.

All in all, I would like to see MORE postings from existing vendors and I would encourage everyone to do whatever it takes to get new vendors on here.

I personally have had conversations with Jim Byrne and encouraged him to post stuff about his tools so everyone would know more about them and I have also asked the guy (Joe) at Cue Components to do the same.  If he was on here he would see the demand for small quantities of veneer strips and maybe come up with a little higher price, but a small minimum order.

That's my 2 cents worth.


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## edman2 (Aug 16, 2010)

I think that market research is a legitimate part of doing business that benefits both the vendor and the entire pen turning community.  I would have preferred another choice on the poll. If a choice of "Limit market research to those forums designated by the Administrator as open to marketing" had been available, I would have marked it.  No research would eventually hurt us all.


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## Smitty37 (Aug 17, 2010)

*Maybe*

There is market research and there is market research.  I offer things for sale...I sometimes say "if I offer this item would you be interested"  Based on the response I will or will not offer that item in the classifieds at a better price than I will offer it elsewhere.  If I can't ask that question somewhere in these forums, I just won't make the special offers.


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## jeff (Aug 17, 2010)

Bump


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## MesquiteMan (Aug 17, 2010)

I strongly feel that we should have a separate forum with a title such as "Materials R&D" or some such.  Then, that forum needs to be MEMBERS ONLY.  This will serve 2 purposes...it will move the market research stuff to a forum so that folks that are not interested in marketing can ignore it but it will also make it a little harder for the big guys to glean ideas from us small guys here.


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## MesquiteMan (Aug 17, 2010)

jeff said:


> Bump



Hey, bumping is not permitted!  Oh wait, this is not the classifieds, sorry!


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## alphageek (Aug 17, 2010)

MesquiteMan said:


> I strongly feel that we should have a separate forum with a title such as "Materials R&D" or some such.  Then, that forum needs to be MEMBERS ONLY.  This will serve 2 purposes...it will move the market research stuff to a forum so that folks that are not interested in marketing can ignore it but it will also make it a little harder for the big guys to glean ideas from us small guys here.



I like that... Of course it only makes it a tiny bit harder, but that suggestion makes sense!   I second that idea.

(Oh, and LOL about the moderator harassing the owner of the site on a bump!)


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## glycerine (Aug 17, 2010)

MesquiteMan said:


> I strongly feel that we should have a separate forum with a title such as "Materials R&D" or some such. Then, that forum needs to be MEMBERS ONLY. This will serve 2 purposes...it will move the market research stuff to a forum so that folks that are not interested in marketing can ignore it but it will also make it a little harder for the big guys to glean ideas from us small guys here.


 
This is true... But can non-members see that there is a particular forum for members only or will they have no idea that it's even there?  Because the "big guys" could just become members and then go check things out.


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## ed4copies (Aug 17, 2010)

The "big guys" are already members.  This is a false sense of security.


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## CabinetMaker (Aug 17, 2010)

I think a new forum makes the most sense so there is one place you can go to to see what is new.  But I don't think that it should be to rigidly enforced.  Sometimes threads take an unexpected turn and those should be allowed to run for a bit.


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## mick (Aug 17, 2010)

I see nothing wrong with let's say somebody like Ed, or Curtis or Constant posting a picture of one of their pens, made from materials they sell, in the SOYP forum, I personally don't check all the forums everyday....but I do check SOYP and the vendors forum. We do have members here that sell items that don't advertise...but other members know because they post example of their work in SOYP. Leave things the way they are, they've worked for over six years until recently when it seems we've had some newer members just looking for something to whine and cry about. Didn't mean to rant but I've watched this go on and I'm tired of a great forum being brought down to the level of a bunch of bickering folks who don't have time for pen turning because they are too busy weeding through useless worthless post looking for the one they need!


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## Gary Max (Aug 17, 2010)

Just wait till you see the new Decal I am going to offer on Monday-------

-----------:biggrin:----------------


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## LizardSpit (Aug 17, 2010)

I use the "new posts" button to browse this forum.  I like seeing every thing (just nosey i guess).  I do not have a problem with the vendors showing their work in SOYP.  The R&D forum would be fine aslong as it shows in the "new posts"


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## Gin N' Tonic (Aug 17, 2010)

jeff said:


> Here's my position.



This statement will skew your results and makes me wonder if the poll will have any bearing whatsoever. If you were looking for accuracy then personal opinion should have been left out. I'm sure that many will read your position and vote option 2 because that is what they think you want.

For what it's worth, I voted for a separate forum in the hope that it will create a level field for everyone and end some of the bickering.


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## mick (Aug 17, 2010)

Gin N' Tonic said:


> This statement will skew your results and makes me wonder if the poll will have any bearing whatsoever. If you were looking for accuracy then personal opinion should have been left out. I'm sure that many will read your position and vote option 2 because that is what they think you want.
> 
> For what it's worth, I voted for a separate forum in the hope that it will create a level field for everyone and end some of the bickering.


 
Scott, you chose which portion of Jeff's post to quote....you need to include all of it....nowhere in it did he state a preference as to which way he wanted it....he DID state that HOWEVER the vote went that's how the rules would be written up. Stop trying to cause problems!


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## Smitty37 (Aug 17, 2010)

*Agree*



ed4copies said:


> The "big guys" are already members. This is a false sense of security.


  I agree with Ed on this one...the big guys already belong or have an employee who belongs.


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## Seer (Aug 17, 2010)

How are we to nkow if something new is being offered by our members who are vendors?  I get somethings by reading these posts and seeing what others have posted and the pictures they attach.  I would have no problem with a forum dedicated to new products and posts about possible new products that may be offered if the interest is there.  I would rather purchase from an active member than from someone else and I have done just that several times.  Lets say if Ed has a chance to bring in some out of this world materials and wants to know the interest from us the active posters and members here what better place than to show some of it without fear of it being deleted or bashed by those who have a grudge or dislike for him or anyone who posts in that forum.  Objectivity and not insults should be all that is allowed there as it is for research for the benefit of Ed and those of us who will purchase from him and the others who post new and exciting items.  Enough rambling but this is my opinion.
Jerry


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## jeff (Aug 17, 2010)

Gin N' Tonic said:


> This statement will skew your results and makes me wonder if the poll will have any bearing whatsoever. If you were looking for accuracy then personal opinion should have been left out. I'm sure that many will read your position and vote option 2 because that is what they think you want.
> 
> For what it's worth, I voted for a separate forum in the hope that it will create a level field for everyone and end some of the bickering.



Scott, that doesn't make sense. First, there is no concept of "accuracy" in an opinion poll. Second, why would people do that? To end up with a forum that doesn't represent their interests? A forum that makes me happy but nobody else? 

I'm human, I have opinions. 

It has never been my experience here that people let me get away with something dumb just because it's what I want. On the contrary, I have proposed many things over the years that never got implemented because I got honest feedback in a situation just like this.


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## Constant Laubscher (Aug 17, 2010)

I  would like to see a section/space where Vendors can pay to have some advertising space and may run an add for a month or more at a time. I have greatly benefited from this forum and still get a good amount of my sales from here. I think this forum gets abused by some people to promote there products just because it is free and without this forum business would have been more of a challenge.

If it is a problem for me as a vendor to show my new pens in the SOYP forum then how about a forum where vendors can show there new products.


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## MesquiteMan (Aug 17, 2010)

Seer said:


> How are we to nkow if something new is being offered by our members who are vendors?



Jerry, that is why we have a classified section.


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## phillywood (Aug 17, 2010)

I think having a separate forum would sounds nice. but, I am not getting all the bickering that's going on. OK, for instance, when we go to HF store or online store. You order something or buy it in person you have to take it home in most cases there is no sample for what's used for or any possibilities of what the tool would be used for then you bring the darn thing home and play with it, which in most cases it may work or not. what's wrong with the vendor putting on a pic of a pen of certain blank to show us how the finish work should look like and in case of most of them they even have a YouTube or tutorials how to use certain tools and blanks or etc.. I think it helps to see what your buying or even if it is within your expertise to try it or not. Plus these guys are not as big as HF or some of the big name companies. they are like you and me with little more investment. I don't see anything wrong putting a poll and asking if certain blank material would be desirable or not. If you don't think you can pay $50.00 for a blank then there's no sense of them carrying it. At the end we end up paying more by buying the more common items at a slightly higher price so the vendor can absorb the profit loss of them items they can not move.
If this new forum created then if a member doesn't want to go there then he/she won't. then that should leave the other forums clean from these old animosity boiling over and over again.
That was my$.02, but because of the economy I have to pich in a dime.:wink:


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## dalemcginnis (Aug 17, 2010)

I voted for the separate forum because it would be easier for me to see all the market research questions when I'm in the mood instead of having to look at every thread to see if it might be a market research one.


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## ed4copies (Aug 17, 2010)

MesquiteMan said:


> Jerry, that is why we have a classified section.


 

Which many people choose not to view.  The personal preferences allow the classifieds to be "turned off", then they are very upset when certain handmade blanks have gone out of stock and they were not told they were coming IN stock.

Yet another "Catch 22"


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## ed4copies (Aug 17, 2010)

MAYBE the right answer would be for us to post, "Visit Exotics on Facebook" and keep ALL the advertising where it is welcome.

(I really don't mean this to sound bitter, it's not meant that way, Jeff----maybe it would "please ALL the people ALL the time!!")


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## GoodTurns (Aug 17, 2010)

I voted for a separate forum.  PLEASE do show your new works in SOYP, just add a link to the research/classified posting for the sales and marketing info.  Not only does this allow you to SHOW OFF YOUR PENS, it eliminates the numerous.."cool, will you be selling that?" posts that invariably follow a new idea!  SOYP is for exactly what it's name implies, research and adverts belong elsewhere.


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## jskeen (Aug 17, 2010)

Ok, I'm going to try to keep this serious and respectful, as it's a direct answer to a question posed by someone who deserves a respectful answer.  (FROM ALL OF US, BTW)  I feel that market research by vendors, so that they can provide products to us in the most efficient manner (translated cheapest price) is one of the more important functions of this forum, right up there with answering questions for new turners to help them improve their craft, and providing feedback to us on our finished products to help us make more of what sells best, and less of what nobody likes.  Restricting this function or impeding it's efficiency is self defeating at best, and at worst devolves into hurting the majority in a vain attempt to placate a loud obnoxious minority (sorta like the government.....oops, sorry Curtis  

We're all adults here, nobody forces us to read every post, and there is a very fine tool called the ignore setting to help us not see stuff from people we don't care to hear from.   Plus, who really wants to spend even more time mediating "this post belongs in that other forum" arguments?  If you don't like it, don't read it.  If somebody decides to read something he don't like, and can't resist the impulse to pollute somebody elses thread with "I don't like this post" the rest of us can quite handily tell him to shut up and go read something else.  No moderation needed.  

Ok, I may have gotten a little less than respectful, but hey... It's all Jeff's fault, he pushed my buttons, I shouldn't have to put up with that in a forum that I am not obligated to do anything to support, and from which i am free to gather as much information as I want, while contributing nothing if I so choose.  I mean really, he's just got to be violating some right of mine doing stuff like that.  Let me call the ACLU.  I know a judge who might just have an axe to grind.  I feel so violated!!!

There, I said it, I feel better!


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## Gin N' Tonic (Aug 17, 2010)

jeff said:


> Scott, that doesn't make sense. First, there is no concept of "accuracy" in an opinion poll. Second, why would people do that? To end up with a forum that doesn't represent their interests? A forum that makes me happy but nobody else?
> 
> I'm human, I have opinions.
> 
> It has never been my experience here that people let me get away with something dumb just because it's what I want. On the contrary, I have proposed many things over the years that never got implemented because I got honest feedback in a situation just like this.





Jeff,

You once told me it was your job to spot patterns in data. If you feel that you are getting "honest" feedback by stating your opinion in a poll then who am I to argue. I stand by what I said. The fastest way to shew an opinion poll is to state your opinion.


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## Gin N' Tonic (Aug 17, 2010)

mick said:


> Scott, you chose which portion of Jeff's post to quote....you need to include all of it....nowhere in it did he state a preference as to which way he wanted it....he DID state that HOWEVER the vote went that's how the rules would be written up. Stop trying to cause problems!



I respect your opinion so please respect mine or put me on your ignore list. If you read Jeff's reply it would seem that he indeed state an opinion and if you read his post it's not hard to figure what his preference is.


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## glycerine (Aug 17, 2010)

Alot of people are mentioning the SOYP.  I don't think Jeff mentioned anything about that in his post.  That's not what is in question here.  The poll is about market research...


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## Gin N' Tonic (Aug 17, 2010)

glycerine said:


> Everyone else is stating their opinions as well.  I don't see you ragging them about it.  Just because Jeff is the site owner does not mean he's not entitled to his own opinion.



You miss the point. I never said that he was not entitled to his own opinion. I did say the best way to skew an opinion poll is to give us your opinion up front.





glycerine said:


> Most of us probably don't know Jeff from the next guy anyway, so why would his opinion sway us???



You've already given the answer "because Jeff is the site owner"


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## witz1976 (Aug 17, 2010)

MesquiteMan said:


> I strongly feel that we should have a separate forum with a title such as "Materials R&D" or some such.  Then, that forum needs to be MEMBERS ONLY.  This will serve 2 purposes...it will move the market research stuff to a forum so that folks that are not interested in marketing can ignore it but it will also make it a little harder for the big guys to glean ideas from us small guys here.



I second this....

...and you are not allowed to bump in the classifieds?  oops...sorry I think I did that once.


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## DurocShark (Aug 17, 2010)

I skipped 4 pages, sorry. Too tired to read it all.

A separate forum will get feedback from the few of us who have time to peruse all eleventy billion forums and sub forums and sub sub forums and such. Basically, a skewed slice of the Penturners.org user pie.

Of the options in the poll, I voted for "any". But I'd rather do it like this:

*Casual Conversation - General discussion of ideas. "If I made a tool that could make you coffee while carving perfect ropes, would you buy it?"

*SOYP - Completed PEN parts/blanks/etc

*Tools - Tools. 


Basically put the post in the appropriate forum.


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## nava1uni (Aug 17, 2010)

I have read all of the posts and toward the end I once again see some individuals getting into it about something.  This seems to be occurring more frequently and the point is being lost.  Either you want to see a specific forum or don't devoted to market research.  this form of communication can leave a lot open to interpretation regarding tone and I am finding that some people appear to be taking it as argumentative and I frankly find it tiring.  I want to say knock it off and I think that you might know who your are.  It derails the original question and puts words into other people's mouth.  I would like to continue to see questions about products and if that works better in a separate forum then let it be.


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## mick (Aug 17, 2010)

Gin N' Tonic said:


> I respect your opinion so please respect mine or put me on your ignore list. If you read Jeff's reply it would seem that he indeed state an opinion and if you read his post it's not hard to figure what his preference is.


I stand by what I said....Jeff stated NO opinion in his post. I think perhaps YOU are the one who needs to actually go back and read the post. I also stand by my earlier post...You are TRYING to cause problems.


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## 1dweeb (Aug 17, 2010)

Let the vendors ask us what we want...It provides a valuable service to them and to us... My .02


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## Mark (Aug 17, 2010)

I believe "Market Research" has it's place and is a valuable tool for a vendor to have. I think maybe a sub-forum in the classifieds would be perfect for such activity. That way, those that do not wish to see it, can ignore it and those that want to support it can do so. IMHO.


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## traderdon55 (Aug 17, 2010)

I have no problems with the way things have been being done but maybe a separate forum would shut some of the whiners up so that eveyone can just enjoy reading the posts.


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## Tony's Pens (Aug 22, 2010)

Will the results of the votes be posted when this poll ends.


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## JohnU (Aug 23, 2010)

Jeff, I appreciate your efforts to iron out a problem that most of us find... not a problem.  Maybe Im too easy going, have a want to "get along with others" or maybe Ive learned at a young age how to respectfully disagree.  I dont think theres one person here who can say they dont want to push the bar and exceed where others have left off.  When we try, we learn.  When others succeed we learn from them. Even with market research its often showing something off.  I know when I see something new or spectacular here I have questions.  It would be nice to see something new and not be restricted on what can or cant be posted with it.  I say let the guys who want to share, share.  Either way the questions will be asked. Its just easier for everyone if we can all read the questions and answers when it comes up at the same place, when one person brings it up and not through pm's or seperate forums.  If a vendor wants input on an idea, create the forum page to ask. If someone wants to know where they can find a blank from a pen posted in the SOYP forum, let them tell.   This place is fun.  I hope we can keep it that way.


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## cnccutter (Aug 23, 2010)

I like being asked what I like and what I want.... if I dont like the question or pole I can always move on to the next topic. let the vendors alone

Erik


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## thewishman (Aug 23, 2010)

I like market research.

I *don't* like bickering.

I propose a separate forum for bickering - provided it can be ignored like the ignore user setting.


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## robutacion (Aug 23, 2010)

I have read every post of this thread and I can't but ask, what would this forum and many identical ones all over the world be, without those that are prepared to share...???
Asking what people want or presenting an idea or a new material, can only be positive, how do you thing we got to where we are now...???

Some members didn't know how to use the turning tools much less to turn a pen when they joined in, why do you thing that they did wanted to join...??? because they can ask the questions they feel like/have and someone will answer, allowing them to proceed to the next step of their new activity, hobby or not.

After some time, those same people have acquired the knowledge and experience to be in the position to give answers to other new members, many would call it "pay forwards".  These same people have continued in their progress and development and certainly they are creating new materials and ways of handling them, the first thing they do is to come here and share with everyone.

Now, most of the times, selling was never planned, and regardless how much others do like the product, more often than not, these people will be happy to just do a few blanks for themselves and continue to try creating new stuff, while others, may decided to experiment with the idea and start making a few more than what he/she would ever use so, once again, they come up here and either share their intentions to produce, asking for possible interest or simply go ahead, get things done and them offer them for sale here for everyone's benefit...!

Yes, everyone's benefit because, in the end of the day, members will be able to see, know and buy products that would never be available in the first place, here or anyone else, if they didn't have the "freedom" to experiment, within the environment this forum offers to everyone.

Some members decide to go bigger and created a situation where many of his/hers and others work is put together to facilitate everyone's job.  Some are small business some are bigger business, we are the ones to make them that way by what we purchase so, denying this simple principle to existent members and deny the  opportunity to others new comers to have the same chance to learn and grow is, at the least, killing the very existence of this forum principals and a fundamental right everyone has, "exist and grow"...!

If having a separate "topic/forum", is what it takes to allow people to freely do the politically correct term "Market Research", let be it, even tough I could give a half dozen interpretations to this term as, they all mean the same, and all have the same objectives so, not being interested in the right terminologies, lets be a little more thankful and appreciative of these people existence big and small...!

Cheers
George


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## ed4copies (Aug 23, 2010)

In a nutshell:  Before Exotics, I could post a pen and have people comment on it.  The CATalog evolved because a few folks wanted access to the products I had located.  There were a couple thousand members and no one complained about the CATalog---based on email orders.

Now there are a few who "jump all over" my posts of pens as advertising.  When I answer a question, I may get PM's from those who notice I mentioned a product that we sell ---"Cleverly hid that ad, but I got it".

Actually, I answered a question---same as I would have done 3 years ago without having to walk on eggshells to do it.

I propose that I should still be able to post anything in SOYP, same as ANY other member, without comments about my advertising.  (Call it verbal pollution, if you will).  Whether I can attach a link to an ad is, in my mind, the only "open question".  Of course, I will abide by whatever decision is made, as I have always attempted to do.

As to "market research"--I believe it falls under the domain of "education" which has ALWAYS been one of the founding principles of the IAP.  The pen-making public is educating ME as to their wants and desires.  By using polls, I can better determine WHAT to purchase for resale by responding to the greatest number of folks who WANT a product.  

As you know Jeff, I ascribe to the philosophy that we are all supposed to be adults.  Drive down the interstate and you have hundreds of advertising messages (some on government-paid signs).  You have to learn which ones you want to read.  Listen to the radio or television, again you need to be able to differentiate your wheat from your chaff.  But your chaff may be MY wheat!!!  

So it's best to allow the educational information and ask the viewer to "filter" on his own.  If he can't accomplish this, we should probably keep him away from sharp tools and this site, anyhow---self-protection.:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:


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## DCBluesman (Aug 23, 2010)

ed4copies said:


> In a nutshell: Before Exotics, I could post a pen and have people comment on it. The CATalog evolved because a few folks wanted access to the products I had located. There were a couple thousand members and no one complained about the CATalog---based on email orders.
> 
> Now there are a few who "jump all over" my posts of pens as advertising. When I answer a question, I may get PM's from those who notice I mentioned a product that we sell ---"Cleverly hid that ad, but I got it".
> 
> ...


 
I couldn't have expressed it better, so just mark me down as +1 for Ed's commentary. Well said!


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## Smitty37 (Aug 23, 2010)

*Agree*



DCBluesman said:


> ed4copies said:
> 
> 
> > In a nutshell: Before Exotics, I could post a pen and have people comment on it. The CATalog evolved because a few folks wanted access to the products I had located. There were a couple thousand members and no one complained about the CATalog---based on email orders.
> ...


 
To put this in perspective.  I'm not in the market for most of what Ed sells and I have my own business - mostly Ed and I are not competitors but we perhaps compete on a couple of items.   

Now I don't happen to use SYOP myself, I'm not that skilled a craftsman Ed is and so he does use it, and so what if he mentions a product...so if I read that, does that force me to buy it?  No.  Does it tell me one place I can find it if I ever want it?  Yes.  Am I so dumb I can't find it anywhere else to compare value?  I sure hope not.  Many times when folks look at a pen in SOYP the first question in their mind is what kit is that?  I think vendors who show a pen should be able to answer that question even if it does plug their own product.  Actually I usually just admires the pens and skip over the commentary unless the pen is really unique.


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## OKLAHOMAN (Aug 23, 2010)

ed4copies said:


> In a nutshell: Before Exotics, I could post a pen and have people comment on it. The CATalog evolved because a few folks wanted access to the products I had located. There were a couple thousand members and no one complained about the CATalog---based on email orders.
> 
> Now there are a few who "jump all over" my posts of pens as advertising. When I answer a question, I may get PM's from those who notice I mentioned a product that we sell ---"Cleverly hid that ad, but I got it".
> 
> ...


 


DCBluesman said:


> ed4copies said:
> 
> 
> > In a nutshell: Before Exotics, I could post a pen and have people comment on it. The CATalog evolved because a few folks wanted access to the products I had located. There were a couple thousand members and no one complained about the CATalog---based on email orders.
> ...


 
What he said!!!!!:biggrin:


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## ed4copies (Aug 23, 2010)

For those who are constructing PMs to send me---I have not sent a PM or email to ANY of the above for ANY  reason--so no they are not typing this because I asked for their support----------

Sorry to disappoint you!

Members who can construct their OWN thoughts are allowed to AGREE with me.


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## mbroberg (Aug 23, 2010)

I have my own thoughts as to this whole issue but in the spirit of not fueling fires or attacking any individual I choose keep them to myself.  Suffice it to say I have not had any problems with any of the posts that any of the vendors have made.  In fact, I am one of those people who will post a pen in SOYP and post where I got the blank, the kit, the bushings I used, the tool I used, etc.  I have also given credt to the individuals who inspired me to do a certain modification or use a certain material.  Why?  Because I appreciate it when others do the same so I will know where to go to look for the stuff I like.  I thought that was what this site was all about.  Sharing information.  I appreciate all the vendors informing me what they have to offer.  I can make up my own mind as to whether or not I will buy.  I believe that most members feel the same.  Hopefully we won't be deprived of the free flow of the information we need to further our craft due to a vocal minority that has nothing better to do than to whine and make waves.


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## RAdams (Aug 23, 2010)

I also agree.... sorta.


Being the "instigator" of this whole situation, I feel obligated to address the post in question. 

I do agree that we need market research, and I also agree that the vendors need a place to show their wares and what have you. Everyone is making the point that the vendors should be allowed free reign of the site, while i disagree with this philosophy, it is not the question of the day. 

I have had no PM's or emails from other vendors saying "Man, if we could just run ad's all over IAP". None of them are interested in turning IAP into a sitcom, where you have 11 minutes of quality, and 19 minutes of commercials. 

My whole beef is equality. If Exotics gets special treatment, then there should be an amendment that says they get special treatment. Otherwise, they should be held to the same level of accountability as the rest of the vendors. 

So yeah, I disagree with the thought that vendors shuold get free run of the site. If you want commercial space... PAY FOR IT. That's what all those people listed above had to do..... Radio, TV, bilboards, newspaper, etc. etc. Hell, you already have an opportunity to earn a spot in MVV forum... That isn't good enough, so there has to be an ad on the CC forum, SOYP forum, MVV forum, Marketing forum, and any other forum that can be "squeeked" into.  And if this site is gonna become the spot for all the vendors to push their merch on us, then ALL the vendors should get the same opportunity to do so. 

Plain and simple. Either amend the rules to exclude the "elite" or enforce the rules for everyone.


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## RAdams (Aug 23, 2010)

mbroberg said:


> I have my own thoughts as to this whole issue but in the spirit of not fueling fires or attacking any individual I choose keep them to myself. Suffice it to say I have not had any problems with any of the posts that any of the vendors have made. In fact, I am one of those people who will post a pen in SOYP and post where I got the blank, the kit, the bushings I used, the tool I used, etc. I have also given credt to the individuals who inspired me to do a certain modification or use a certain material. Why? Because I appreciate it when others do the same so I will know where to go to look for the stuff I like. I thought that was what this site was all about. Sharing information. I appreciate all the vendors informing me what they have to offer. I can make up my own mind as to whether or not I will buy. I believe that most members feel the same. Hopefully we won't be deprived of the free flow of the information we need to further our craft due to a vocal minority that has nothing better to do than to whine and make waves.


 


I like how you claimed to be staying out of it and then threw in the flame at the end! that was pretty slick!:biggrin: Are you not attacking? Are you attacking? Are you fueling the fire? Or do you have a fire extinguisher?:tongue: It can be so hard to tell sometimes.


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## ed4copies (Aug 23, 2010)

My comments are addressed to the OP.  All members are encouraged to express THEIR opinion to the OP--who also is the site owner.  

*Only Jeff knows what we each contribute* and so far, I've had no complaints from HIM.  So, since you "call out" exotics in particular, Ron.  Let me reply specifically to you---what you (and your small minority of followers) think is of no concern to me.  

I am here at the whim of the owner and his appointees.  I hope to abide by his rules.  I believe his rules are for the benefit of the MAJORITY of the members.  

LOUD, must not be mistaken for CORRECT!

What Jeff and Curtis decide is all that matters to me and several thousand other members.


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## DCBluesman (Aug 23, 2010)

RAdams said:


> If Exotics gets special treatment, then there should be an amendment that says they get special treatment. Otherwise, they should be held to the same level of accountability as the rest of the vendors.
> 
> So yeah, I disagree with the thought that vendors shuold get free run of the site. If you want commercial space... PAY FOR IT.


 
*Not your damned call*.  Jeff, and many years ago the Board, decided that this site would not sell advertising.  Advertising is allowed as it benefits the members. *THE DECISION IS ALREADY MADE!*

Jeff knows of your bitch. He's taking stock of the situation.  If you don't like Jeff's rules in Jeff's house, leave and start your own forum with YOUR rules.  It's that simple.


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## ed4copies (Aug 23, 2010)

The Pen Shop comes to mind for those of us with "historical memory".


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## jskeen (Aug 23, 2010)

ed4copies said:


> The Pen Shop comes to mind for those of us with "historical memory".



Perhaps somebody could call up the owner of that site and ask him "How's that working out for ya?"  

I would but I don't expect he would take my call, unless he doesn't  have caller ID, in which case it would be a very short call.


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## ed4copies (Aug 23, 2010)

jskeen said:


> ed4copies said:
> 
> 
> > The Pen Shop comes to mind for those of us with "historical memory".
> ...




I'll bet if we conducted a poll, the number of participants who could correctly identify RTJW would be incredibly small.


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## alphageek (Aug 23, 2010)

RAdams said:


> My whole beef is equality. If Exotics gets special treatment, then there should be an amendment that says they get special treatment. Otherwise, they should be held to the same level of accountability as the rest of the vendors.



Who says they aren't as accountable as the others?  You?  Personally, I think that the complaints you have with exotics could be pointed to other vendors too... 



ed4copies said:


> LOUD, must not be mistaken for CORRECT!
> 
> What Jeff and Curtis decide is all that matters to me and several thousand other members.



Amen to both those statements.



DCBluesman said:


> Jeff knows of your bitch. He's taking stock of the situation.  If you don't like Jeff's rules in Jeff's house, leave and start your own forum with YOUR rules.  It's that simple.



+1 on that... Personally, I think IAP is one of the best sites (not just for pens), but any that I've come across.  Members like Ed, Curtis, Lou, and countless others, that have valuable input (and often are also vendors) along with Jeff make this a great site.

The fact that you personally feel that exotics has an elite 'status' is one that I agree with, but with exact opposite tone.   They are one of the best in terms of the help they have giving other members.   Am I biased, yes - but so is everyone - each person has their own bias.    Mine was made by the good information and positive attitudes given.

Back onto the topic:
I like the rules as they are and have given my input above, but whatever changes Jeff feels necessary I'm sure will be good... and if they aren't for the better, I'm sure they can be looked at again.  

Jeff - I wish you luck because I understand trying to please a crowd and listening to squeeky wheels.   Good luck and know that most of us will stand behind any choice you make.


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## RAdams (Aug 23, 2010)

DCBluesman said:


> RAdams said:
> 
> 
> > If Exotics gets special treatment, then there should be an amendment that says they get special treatment. Otherwise, they should be held to the same level of accountability as the rest of the vendors.
> ...


 

You are 100% correct. It is not my call. I am just a bystander. But just like all the rest of the bystanders, Until someone boots me from this site, I have the same right to post as anyone else. I find it amusing that there can be several posts where people are indirectly bashing me, and that is ok, but as soon as i voice my opinion, I get slammed. You people can keep preaching on the same point.......

"Vendors should be allowed to post" over and over and over and over. Why can i not defend my position? If my position bothers you, then maybe you should heed your own advice and move on. 

It is like a bunch of high school kids....... You know that if you harp long enough on the crap, then i will step up and say something. Hopefully (in your mind) i will keep yelling and screaming and Jeff will get sick of it and boot me. If you want me out, then take a freaking poll or petition or something and present it to Jeff. Otherwise, I will be right here doing what i do... MAKIN NOISE!:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:


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## Gin N' Tonic (Aug 23, 2010)

DCBluesman said:


> RAdams said:
> 
> 
> > If Exotics gets special treatment, then there should be an amendment that says they get special treatment. Otherwise, they should be held to the same level of accountability as the rest of the vendors.
> ...





The board is no more, Remember?

Perhaps it is time for a change and advertising should be sold. Seems to me if one had to pay for advertising then the whole complaint of special treatment, or the perception of special treatment would go away?


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## RAdams (Aug 23, 2010)

JerrySambrook said:


> Now I understand why the democratic legislators in texas took off for Oklahoma a few years back.
> They actually look smarter than some of the people who live there.
> 
> Roy, this does not include you however.


 


That would be another slam aimed at me right???


Good job!!! Because you made a general statement, you can verbally slam me in public and not break the rules! You are smarter than us dumb Okies for sure. 


Can you say "BAAAHHHH"?????


All you sheep have fun following Herder Ed around!


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## DCBluesman (Aug 23, 2010)

Gin N' Tonic said:


> Perhaps it is time for a change and advertising should be sold. Seems to me if one had to pay for advertising then the whole complaint of special treatment, or the perception of special treatment would go away?


 
That is not your call either, Scott.  This is JEFF BROWN's forum, REMEMBER? Remember your breakaway forum.  If you don't like the way this forum is run, restart it.


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## Smitty37 (Aug 23, 2010)

*And visa-versa*



ed4copies said:


> For those who are constructing PMs to send me---I have not sent a PM or email to ANY of the above for ANY reason--so no they are not typing this because I asked for their support----------
> 
> Sorry to disappoint you!
> 
> Members who can construct their OWN thoughts are allowed to AGREE with me.


 
For those who think I might be a "sheep" following Ed around. I think he would be the first to acknowledge (after me) that we do not agree on every subject that comes up and that neither of us is very shy about letting the other know when we disagree. I just happen to think his position on this matter is right.


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## JerrySambrook (Aug 23, 2010)

Roy,
I must have changed that while you were on.

Adams,
     I see you are a man of your word, so I do not know how to address you.


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## JohnU (Aug 23, 2010)

Well I've been called many things in life but never a sheep, (lol)  and simply because many have same opinions that are not the same as yours.  Not to mention they were posting it where it was asked of them.  

I can relate this to dealings at work where I've suggested to troubled children that were angry at how things didn't go their way to simply take themselves out of what anger them.  To move on and try to be happy somewhere else. Life is too short.


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## phillywood (Aug 23, 2010)

vow!! wholy pen (I don't know which one?:biggrin::tongue::biggrin:!!!!!!!!!)


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## Smitty37 (Aug 23, 2010)

*Take care of myself*



RAdams said:


> I also agree.... sorta.
> 
> 
> Being the "instigator" of this whole situation, I feel obligated to address the post in question.
> ...


 
You're surely entitled to your opinion, but I don't need anyone but Smitty to speak for me....other vendors can make up their own minds.  And, personally I don't really care if someone else gets special treatment or better treatment than I do.  Maybe it ain't fair, but who the h--- ever said life is fair.  It's like a game of cards...ya gotta play with the hand ya get dealt.


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## PR_Princess (Aug 23, 2010)

So far, I have stayed out of this fray. But no longer



RAdams said:


> I also agree.... sorta.....
> 
> My whole beef is equality. If Exotics gets special treatment, then there should be an amendment that says they get special treatment. Otherwise, they should be held to the same level of accountability as the rest of the vendors.



Ron,  Exotics does not get any special treatment on the IAP, despite your continuous misguided accusations. I suggest that you do a little more research into the company, and get some FACTS before you go off half cocked again. But for you to try claim that ANY member of this forum, (who also happens to be a seller on Exotics be it Ed, Toni, Jeff Powell, John U. or myself), should be censored and denied the same rights and privileges  that are awarded to other members of the IAP is just plain wrong. And I will defend their rights.



RAdams said:


> Hell, you already have an opportunity to earn a spot in MVV forum...



Again I suggest that you get some FACTS first. But since you are new here let me make this a bit easier. The MVV was established by Jeff as a way of thanking long standing members. Members that were also major contributors to the site. Did Ed earn this? Yes. Years before Exotics was even conceived. One day it is a position that or you or I may merit. But this is Jeff's forum. It is his decision alone, and today is not that day.



RAdams said:


> ALL the vendors should get the same opportunity to do so.



 I can not speak for other vendors, but I believe that they do have the same opportunities. In fact, if I recall correctly, even you and your cactus blanks appeared in forums other than the purely advertising ones...


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## DCBluesman (Aug 23, 2010)

Well said.


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## Gin N' Tonic (Aug 23, 2010)

DCBluesman said:


> Gin N' Tonic said:
> 
> 
> > Perhaps it is time for a change and advertising should be sold. Seems to me if one had to pay for advertising then the whole complaint of special treatment, or the perception of special treatment would go away?
> ...



Don't think I ever said it was my call, Just stating my opinion. Last time I checked I was allowed to state my opinion. Perhaps you should remind yourself that it is JEFF BROWN'S forum and NOT LOU METCALF'S.

Yes, I remember. I also remember you wanting to buy it.


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## ThomJ (Aug 23, 2010)

Ok, this horse meat is tender enough


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## maxwell_smart007 (Aug 23, 2010)

As always, it appears that a few people are on the verge of taking this discussion too far.  The rules say:
_No trolling. Don't make posts that are inflammatory just to annoy people.

No personal attacks. Criticize ideas, not people. Flaming will not be tolerated. Broad, negative statements about individuals or businesses are not permitted._

Personal attacks are not permitted, ever.  

Now in terms of the discussion at hand, I don't see any reason why it needs to be done in this manner - if you think someone's breaking a rule, report it, and show WHICH rule is being broken.

Ed is definitely a vendor who has a high profile on the forum.  That's because he's a member of the forum.  If he's always here, it's likely that he'll have more posts than the people at Woodcraft, PSI, etc. - that's not favoritism because they're more than welcome to join and post pens whenever they like.   

I also don't see any special treatment being given to any vendors.  If the owner of CSUSA, or Constant, or any other person shows off a unique pen in the SOYP forum, I'd expect them to tell me where the blank came from.  If, however, they then post a classified ad in the same thread, I'd have a problem with it. 

Ed does turn his own stock, but that seems to be expected, wouldn't you think?  I think your dislike of Ed is clouding your view of all of his posts. He is not, in the SOYP forum, selling his stock - at least not that I've seen.    

I have not seen any vendors breaking the advertising rule - but if you see them, then click the yellow triangle.

Again, I'll say it - click the yellow triangle to report violating posts. 

Clear enough?  The yellow triangle is your way to report to the moderator that you have found a violation of the rule.  If you do not click the yellow triangle, then you have not reported a rule violation.  

Just one last thing - let's stop bickering, ok?  It's rather childish!


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## jeff (Aug 23, 2010)

Thanks for all the comments. 

Feel free to vote on the issue if you have not already, feel free to leave a simple comment for or against the idea, but let's squash the parts of this thread which have gone into the weeds. 

Thanks


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## greenmtnguy (Aug 23, 2010)

For anyone that feels that this forum is unfair, I would suggest a Yahoo group that is free and you can set it up to allow only people you approve of and I believe you can toss off anyone you want. Problem solved for this unfair forum. If I thought this forum was so biased, I certainly would start my own much improved site. The current theme seems to be detract from this forum, not contribute meaningfully. Life's problems will not be solved on this forum.


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## jack barnes (Aug 23, 2010)

Ron  I don't care if you stay a member or not, but I think it would be any eye opener if you was to start the poll you suggested and see how it comes out. 

Jack


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## arioux (Aug 23, 2010)

For those of us that are around for a while, thre was a time that a CSUSA representative was a member here (sorry, i don't recall his name).  He was showing his pens (CSUSA kits of course), and was even presenting their new kits in the SUYP forum with a clear mention "Hey this is out new kits".  He even had his own topics for the special of the mount.  And no one was complaining, on the contrary we where all expecting the end of the mount to see the new special for IAP member.

My point is any vendor have his place on IAP if he wants to take it and we should be happy about it, we are privilege (sp) to have them so close to us.  Mabe some are more apparent and don't miss an opportunity to mention their business but this is what it is, a business and some folks have a great business sense.  That might shock some but i personnaly just don't care if Ed says "We at Exotic...bla bla bla... well either i read or i skip.  Id Smitty talks about his kits, ir read or i skip.  If Manny talk about his glue, i read or i skip.  What the He....ll is the problem.

Jeff, do what you want or need to do.  Whatever you choose some will like some won't anyway and it seems that lately, every subject is good for rock throwing.

My opinion:  I need the vendor information because I am a custommer !  And if they consult me about something, i am a satisfied custommer.

orry for the long post but i had to write it.


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## mick (Aug 23, 2010)

jack barnes said:


> Ron I don't care if you stay a member or not, but I think it would be any eye opener if you was to start the poll you suggested and see how it comes out.
> 
> Jack


 
Jack ...yOu took the words right out of my mouth!


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## NewLondon88 (Aug 23, 2010)

I just saw this discussion and thought I'd put in my $.02

I would be really concerned if I saw all 'marketing research' moved off  to
another area. 

The 'research' done here tends to be very informal. It isn't usually
done as a marketing survey, more like a show and tell with requests for
comments. 

I'm no Carnac the Magnificent, but I can see how this *could *play  out..
Vendors (or potential vendors) get moved off to another area of the  forum,
and any time they venture out of that area, they are accused of  'marketing'
outside their cage. (many people don't read the classifieds, the same  way
many people skip over the advertisements in magazines or newspapers,
skip the commercials on TV etc.  so they might never see the vendors
again) 
Then the users who had a problem with a vendor get to force The Powers
That Be to beat up the vendor on their behalf.
The users lose, because they get less information from the vendors. The
Vendors lose because they become (in effect) ostracized and relegated
to a separate area and lose touch with potential customers.

Blatantly using a forum for your sales pitch without becoming a part of
the community tends to make you stand out, and not in a good way.
Groups like this tend to be _*very good*_ at self policing  these types of
situations.

But if we move vendors off into another area and start charging advertisers
then we risk losing their participation, or worse, anything they say that is
not in a paid ad gets turned into a "violation"
Then this forum wouldn't be any different than the other forums online.
(the ones I won't join)

As for paid ads .. I wonder if that would offset the vendor donations that
could be lost if they felt they were no longer a 'part of the group'

Just my opinion, it could be wrong


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## mbroberg (Aug 23, 2010)

NewLondon88 said:


> I just saw this discussion and thought I'd put in my $.02
> 
> I would be really concerned if I saw all 'marketing research' moved off  to
> another area.
> ...



This is probably the most well thought out, intelligent post in this thread.  Thanks for saying it so well!


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## witz1976 (Aug 23, 2010)

ThomJ said:


> Ok, this horse meat is tender enough


yup:beat-up:


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## jeff (Aug 23, 2010)

RAdams said:


> JerrySambrook said:
> 
> 
> > Now I understand why the democratic legislators in texas took off for Oklahoma a few years back.
> ...



Ron, WE'RE NOT ALL SHEEP, we simply recognize a quality vendor who sells the stuff we want. There are MANY of those on the IAP. Although you imply that ED has some super powers over us, we are not his HERD OF SHEEP slogging through the mud to get to the Internet Kiosk at the end of the fence row to bang our snouts on the screen to place our orders. We make decisions based on quality, service, and selection, and PARTICIPATION. More often than not around here, a vendor like that gets A LOT of business. He thrives, and being human he wants to do more of the same, so he brings us MORE stuff to buy, and we lap it up. We'd love FIFTY vendors like that. We are penmaking NUTS, we spend money until we need to go print more to buy milk for the baby. It's a symbiotic relationship, and it's good. They got. We want. 

Since so many of us enjoy Ed's products, including me, and since your broad statement "All you sheep have fun following Herder Ed around!" was pejorative and offensive from several angles, to Ed and the members who enjoy purchasing his products, it's obvious to me that you've lost respect for our members, the IAP, and at least one of our Vendors. Sorry about that conclusion, but this is my living room, and that's my conclusion.

I don't know what we've done to draw fire from you Ron, but we need to calm things down a bit.This is a great time of year for us - fall is rapidly creeping up on us, most of us will be heading to our shops to stock up for shows or make Christmas gifts. When we come to the forum we like to learn things, buy some stuff, have a little fun sparring with our pals, argue a little sometimes, laugh at jokes and each other, and generally enjoy life. What we have going here is pretty nasty self-fulfilling diatribe and it stops now.


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## OKLAHOMAN (Aug 23, 2010)

jeff said:


> RAdams said:
> 
> 
> > JerrySambrook said:
> ...


 
Thank you!


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## DCBluesman (Aug 23, 2010)

Thank you for your eloquence, Jeff.  And your quiet leadership.


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## JerrySambrook (Aug 23, 2010)

Gin N' Tonic said:


> DCBluesman said:
> 
> 
> > Gin N' Tonic said:
> ...



Hey Mudder,
      You state that you are allowed to state an opinion, so why can't Jeff do the same thing if he wants as well. Especially on his forum.


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## rjwolfe3 (Aug 23, 2010)

So now that football is starting, how bout them Cowboys!!:biggrin::biggrin:


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## arioux (Aug 23, 2010)

rjwolfe3 said:


> So now that football is starting, how bout them Cowboys!!:biggrin::biggrin:



We should have a separate forum for that


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## greenmtnguy (Aug 23, 2010)

Maybe Jeff just needs to say" this is how it is, like it or leave" About now I wouldn't mind hearing the door slam a few times. How about talking pens, pen turning, wood, and maybe ask a friend how they are doing, and try to help someone that needs help. Quit pulling the damn walls down. I am standing on my toes now.   I know from the pms I get, I am not the only one sick of this perpetual crap.


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## rjwolfe3 (Aug 23, 2010)

arioux said:


> rjwolfe3 said:
> 
> 
> > So now that football is starting, how bout them Cowboys!!:biggrin::biggrin:
> ...



Was gonna say go Browns but didn't want to get banned for blasphemy!!


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## ed4copies (Aug 24, 2010)

Thank you Jeff.

I am much more comfortable turning pens, talking pens and teaching pens than I am defending my existence.

Unfortunately, I learned in high school--some people will continue to demean you until you strike back.  I don't enjoy it, but I enjoy being derided even less.  

I will very happily go back to making NO negative posts, as I have tried to do in the 10000 that predated this incident.

Thanks to all for putting up with the last couple weeks.

I sincerely hope it is over.

Being not a sports fanatic, how bout that Don Ward symposium?????  Scintillating, eh???

Thanks again, Jeff.


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## Rick_G (Aug 24, 2010)

I voted for allow it anywhere.  I am one of those that seldom get past the home page.  If it is on there and the title interests me I read it.  If not I pass.  If you are trying to sell me " sham wow's" or car parts on this site I may get a little upset maybe even enough to comment on your ancestry to the monitor screen and move on.  I've got to many other things going on in my life to worry about whether someone posted in the right forum or not.  The more rules there are the more likely someone will break one whether on purpose or not.  If your thread is not on the home page when I sign in there is a really good chance I will never see it.  The last time I checked the homepage just lists the latest dozen or so threads that have been posted in  since the last time I checked in no matter what forum they were originally posted in.


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## lwalden (Aug 24, 2010)

DCBluesman said:


> Thank you for your eloquence, Jeff.  And your quiet leadership.



+ 1


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## louisbry (Aug 24, 2010)

OKLAHOMAN said:


> jeff said:
> 
> 
> > RAdams said:
> ...


 
Thanks Jeff.  I voted to keep it the way it is.   The worthy vendors promote the art of penturning and the "others" become known for what they are.   You and your moderators do an excellent job keeping  the forums within the  stated rules and when you are forced to "police" a little bit the vast majority of the members support you.

Incidentally I did a search with the keyword "Exotic Blanks" and 20 pages came up.   On the first three pages I counted 6 posts by ed4copys and 
PR_Princess  and 68 posts by other members.  The first 3 pages are fairly representative of the other 17 pages.  I THINK THAT MOST MEMBERS ARE VERY HAPPY!


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## mick (Aug 24, 2010)

Thanks Jeff, you keep the IAP a great place!


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## jeff (Aug 24, 2010)

Tony's Pens said:


> Will the results of the votes be posted when this poll ends.



Absolutely


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## jeff (Aug 29, 2010)

I'm going to be out of town for a couple days with little time to comment on this, so I decided to end the poll a day early and make this post. As you can see, the result is overwhelmingly in favor of allowing vendor marketing with a moderate edge to confining it to its own forum. 

I'm leaning toward either allowing vendor research in business classifieds and counting each post on that subject against the two post per day limit in that forum, or creating a new forum in the buy, sell, and swap category and allowing two market research posts a day. Anyone with an opinion on that can post or PM me.

Within the next week or so I'll write up what I believe are appropriate guidelines for this. I'll TRY to define what I mean by "vendor marketing" and separate it from the "sneaky marketing practices" described in the AUP. I'm sure there will be situations that arise which we'll have to deal with on an individual basis, but the guidelines will be a start. They'll be simple and straightforward. Until they are posted, carry on as usual. Another thing I'll clarify is the posting of finished pens by vendors in SOYP, and the mention of material in a post there (such as, here's a pen I made with a blank from xyz...) [hint - both will be allowed, as now]

My goal with the guidelines will be to provide an acceptable means to allow tasteful and tolerable vendor research. Anyone who thinks this vote means we're going to have a free-for-all of "would you buy this" and "do you want me to make this" should not worry. No matter whether this is confined to its own forum or allowed generally, this does not mean the vendors are going to have free run. We want to help them help us, but the IAP does not exist for vendors to profit from us. It exists for the purpose of sharing and education, and allowing the "necessary" amount of vendor research will help educate them as to our wants and needs.

Thanks for all your comments and your vote. I think this will clarify an issue that is important to our community.


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## LEAP (Aug 29, 2010)

Wow, I go away for a week and come back to find this. I'm not going to comment on the subject on hand only Thank Jeff for putting up with all of us and running the best forum around. I'm raising two kids and putting up with their mood swings and bickering is a challenge at times. How you do it with thousands of kids playing in your yard is beyond me. So GOOD ON YA!!! Thanks again for providing us with a safe place to play.


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## toddlajoie (Aug 30, 2010)

Well, I missed the show, and the poll, but I'll give a +1 to this...



LizardSpit said:


> I use the "new posts" button to browse this forum. I like seeing every thing (just nosey i guess). I do not have a problem with the vendors showing their work in SOYP. The R&D forum would be fine aslong as it shows in the "new posts"



I'll keep my eyes open for that "other" poll to show up....


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## glycerine (Sep 2, 2010)

jeff said:


> I'm going to be out of town for a couple days with little time to comment on this, so I decided to end the poll a day early and make this post. As you can see, the result is overwhelmingly in favor of allowing vendor marketing with a moderate edge to confining it to its own forum.
> 
> I'm leaning toward either allowing vendor research in business classifieds and counting each post on that subject against the two post per day limit in that forum, or creating a new forum in the buy, sell, and swap category and allowing two market research posts a day. Anyone with an opinion on that can post or PM me.
> 
> ...


 
I agree with this.  It sounds like a good idea to me.  A daily post minimum would help.  I noticed that some members were starting to complain about Phillywoods posts on all the different wood types, so I imagine tons of "market research" posts would have the same effect.  (Not saying that I personally had a problem with Phillywoods posts, just noticed that others did.)


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## jeff (Sep 7, 2010)

Just an update... I've written the first draft of the vendor marketing guidelines and released that to the management team for comments. I hope to have comments back and make the necessary tweaks within a week. The guidelines will then be added to the AUP and become "official."

Thanks all for your patience.


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## Tanner (Sep 8, 2010)

I'm fine with market research even in the SOYP section.  Sometimes I see a pen made from a blank I never would have purchased unless I saw the finished product.  We all ask, hey where did you get that blank, and it ends up it's just a regular blank at one of the vendor web sites.  Turned down to size and put on a pen, it looks awesome.  I like seeing new blank colors or inlays in the SOYP section.  It gives me an idea of what I may be capable of making.


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## Gin N' Tonic (Oct 23, 2010)

jeff said:


> Just an update... I've written the first draft of the vendor marketing guidelines and released that to the management team for comments. I hope to have comments back and make the necessary tweaks within a week. The guidelines will then be added to the AUP and become "official."
> 
> Thanks all for your patience.




Must be one heck of a long week? What calendar are you using? Let me see........you posted this on 9/7/2010 and today is 10/23/2010?? Oh, I got it; September 7th was a Tuesday and October 23rd is a Saturday so I guess a week has not gone by yet?


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## sptfr43 (Oct 23, 2010)

Jeff, I think you may be going about this the wrong way. Instead of trying to figure out where to allow the market research posts, or any other controversial posts for that matter, why not just start a forum where all the " kids " can go to hash out their differences? That way the rest of us who enjoy the I.A.P for what it is can visit in peace without being subjected to the bickering that these "kids" seem to thrive on.


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