# CA Finish Turning Cloudy After Several Months



## jchoponis (Sep 17, 2012)

I am sure this question has been addressed on here before. I have read several forums on this and still need some help. 

I have a couple of maple pens that I finished in CA over a year ago, I use them almost every day and picked them up today and the pens are now cloudy. I have had this problem in the past with Walnut and Zebra wood, but never with maple.

Here is the process that I currently use. I apply 2 coats of thin, and 4 - 6 coats of medium. I turn the lathe down to the lowest speed, clean the blank, apply with a paper towel, cure with accelerator, sand with 2400 and clean between each coat. I repeat this process until the last coat then sand down to 12000. 

I have been using Titebond, is there a better glue? 

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

John


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## Lenny (Sep 17, 2012)

A Cloudy CA finish usually indicates a moisture problem. 

Titebond is the brand name ... What type of glue are you referring to? CA ? For the finish? Gluing tubes in ?  I like member Monty/Manny's glues ... CA in thin and med. for finish and the 2part epoxy for gluing tubes in.


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## Lenny (Sep 17, 2012)

If you are wet sanding between coats you may have introduced water in the finish. 
I KNOW this can happen :redface: but DAMHIKT


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## jchoponis (Sep 17, 2012)

Yes, I am using the Titebond CA glue. I use thick to glue the tubes in and thin and med for the finish. I do not wet sand between coats.


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## hunter-27 (Sep 17, 2012)

Cloudy = moisture

Dull spots = oil

I most certainly suspect the 1st one and that even though you think it was dry wood, it might have been not quite.


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## plantman (Sep 18, 2012)

John; When you square the ends after finishing and before you put them together, do you reseal the raw ends with something ?? If not, moisture could be wicking in from the end grain. I always use nail polish hardner to reseal my end grain. It also puts a gloss finish on the ends.  Jim S


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## ghostrider (Oct 16, 2012)

After our talk today it just occurred to me. Is it possible that some of the sanding dust from the "between coat" sanding my be getting left under the next coat of CA?

Since you don't use denatured alcohol to clean before finishing, I'm wondering what you cleaning procedure is for between coats.


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## ed4copies (Oct 17, 2012)

jchoponis said:


> I am sure this question has been addressed on here before. I have read several forums on this and still need some help.
> 
> I have a couple of maple pens that I finished in CA over a year ago, I use them almost every day and picked them up today and the pens are now cloudy. I have had this problem in the past with Walnut and Zebra wood, but never with maple.
> 
> ...



If this is not an exaggeration (no offense, but it is important to my conclusion), then the pen has been through four seasons.  IF it was going to show signs of moisture---WHY NOW???

This is not the first person who has said CA has "clouded" a long time after it was made.  Is it next to the hardware (where moisture could enter from outside), or in the middle of the pen?

I don't have a good theory, but I think the explanations so far are unlikely to develop that long after the pen is made.

FWIW-=-Ed


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## Wildman (Oct 17, 2012)

We all know wood is hydroscopic, I suspect CA glue may be hygroscopic too!

Before CA became crazy glue with fantastic holding ability on TV.  Sealing or closing wounds without stitches little know claim to fame. How can CA  close & seal wounds promote healing if not hygroscopic?

I cannot name one film finish that will completely stop water vapor transfer. Can name several that slow down water vapor transfer but not stop it!


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## Ambidex (Oct 17, 2012)

*pen*

Maybe a couple of good close-up pics could help us identify the prob..I'm with Ed thinking after a year it's unlikely the ca's issue..outside influence would make more sense imho..


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## bradh (Oct 17, 2012)

Wildman said:


> We all know wood is hydroscopic, I suspect CA glue may be hygroscopic too!
> 
> Before CA became crazy glue with fantastic holding ability on TV.  Sealing or closing wounds without stitches little know claim to fame. How can CA  close & seal wounds promote healing if not hygroscopic?
> 
> I cannot name one film finish that will completely stop water vapor transfer. Can name several that slow down water vapor transfer but not stop it!



I don't think CA glue is hydroscopic, it sets by means of an external catalyst, such as moisture. CA is used to seal wounds because it reacts with water in blood to set.

  I suspect this issue is due to moisture getting past the finish into the wood. The seal on the blank ends would be my first suspect followed by wearing thru the finish. Ensure the ends are sealed well. I put a few drops of CA on the blank ends and rub the blanks together to spread the CA. This seals the ends and seals any end gaps between the wood and the tubes.


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## Wildman (Oct 17, 2012)

Brad, you may be right cyanoacrylate not hygroscopic. Yes reacts to surface moisture to set up.  CA finish does not stop water vapor transfer just slows it down.

While they make so many cyanoacrylate formulas for different applications, all products designed to polymerize instantly upon contact with moisture.  With few exceptions weak resistance to moisture, heat, and shock common.  They now make water & heat resistant products. 

Fact remains all film finish including CA will eventually fail due to water vapor transfer.  I accept fact, our application of film finishes while look outstanding may have flaws not seen with naked eyes.  Those flaws may or may not compromise finished surface or prove to be a disaster for a very long time.


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## jchoponis (Oct 17, 2012)

No offense taken Ed, but the pens are over a year old. One of the pens had a cloudy patch in the center and the other one had several smaller spots throughout.

Thanks everyone for all of the advice. After reading the responses it must have been moisture as the pens were in the cab of my truck for almost a week during a recent hunting trip, and it rained most of that week. 

John


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## michael j flett (Oct 20, 2012)

I have had realy good results with CA and  BLO, i saw it used on youtube and gave it a try, no sanding between coats and great finish.


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## bradh (Oct 21, 2012)

Wildman said:


> ==trim==
> 
> Fact remains all film finish including CA will eventually fail due to water vapor transfer.  I accept fact, our application of film finishes while look outstanding may have flaws not seen with naked eyes.  Those flaws may or may not compromise finished surface or prove to be a disaster for a very long time.



I would hardly call water vapour transfer a fail. All finishes will allow water to absorb thru. The point of a finish is to limit the speed of that transfer so the wood will not crack (or cloud the finish) due to uneven stresses from the absorption or loss of water.
   Even "dry" wood will change moisture content with seasons or when it is moved to a different area when the humidity levels of the air are different.
    Here is a good article on wood and moisture:
Understanding Moisture Content and Wood Movement | THISisCarpentry
   Look at the chart near the top: at 0% RH (relative humidity) the wood will stabalize at 0% moisture content; at 25% RH, the wood stabailizes at 5% moisture content; at 50% RH, wood will stabailize at 9% MC.
   When we make a pen, assuming the wood has been in our shop a while, it will have stabalized at to our local conditions; we finish and ship the pen to a different part of the world and the wood begins to transition to its new stabalized moisture content.
   Also consider in the great lakes area where I live, our summers are humid often 80 to 100% RH, when I have the A/C on, the RH in my shop is much lower. In the winter, the furnace is on driving the RH down until I turn the furnace humidifier on. All these things, the seasons, the a/c, the furnance, the humidifier, all will change the RH in my shop and affect the blanks I have stored there. The wood is constantly changing MC.
   So you see "dry wood" is a relative term.


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## Wildman (Oct 23, 2012)

Brad, agree wood is never as dry as we think! Not sure how many times have posted on various message boards a film finish will not stop water vapor transfer only slow it down. So do understand concern MC of wood. I have been harvesting wood for turning for very long time. Definitely know wood must reach +/- 1 or 2 % of ECM before stable enough to use. Wood used outside will have different EMC than wood used indoors.

How many folks here know the MC of wood they use to make pens? How many people buy wood completely sealed in wax and turn, a pen as soon as wood arrives? I do not always know or check.  

Cyanoacrylate glues normally a temporary adhesive with poor shear strength an impact resistance.  Moisture definitely leads to CA failure. How many folks here know how long it takes CA totally cure? While CA has fast set up time, how long does it take to fully cure?  Full cure time applies about same for thin, medium, and thick CA.


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