# Does your CA do this?  I think not....



## edstreet (Jun 27, 2015)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vG_Gd6ej4iQ

This is some EXTREME flex agents added to CA.


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## alphageek (Jun 27, 2015)

And what about the negatives that may be possible with that.   You are relatively fixated on flexibility in every thread that you post in about CA recently.   However, there could be a cost to that flexibility.   There is at least 2 sides to every debate and product.

Many of us use CA (of a variety of different brands) because of its hardness.   It offers a strong solid surface that is longer lasting than many other "typical" wood finishes, most of which are not designed for the day to day handling that pens get.

Add a bunch of flex agents into CA and you might not get the durable finish that you did in the past.  Just because you can twist a product in knots doesn't mean it will make a great pen finish.


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## thewishman (Jun 27, 2015)

That should be great for gluing tubes in.


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## Smitty37 (Jun 27, 2015)

alphageek said:


> And what about the negatives that may be possible with that.   You are relatively fixated on flexibility in every thread that you post in about CA recently.   However, there could be a cost to that flexibility.   There is at least 2 sides to every debate and product.
> 
> Many of us use CA (of a variety of different brands) because of its hardness.   It offers a strong solid surface that is longer lasting than many other "typical" wood finishes, most of which are not designed for the day to day handling that pens get.
> 
> Add a bunch of flex agents into CA and you might not get the durable finish that you did in the past.  Just because you can twist a product in knots doesn't mean it will make a great pen finish.


I think the use of the flexible CA would be more as a glue than a hard finish Dean.  The major weakness of CA glue is that it lacks shear strength - it has great pull strength (remember the commercials showing it picking up a car with one drop of CA) but push it sideways and it is next to nothing.  The glue shown in the utube would hold better in the sheer directions which is better for gluing in tubes than typical CA,


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## PR_Princess (Jun 27, 2015)

thewishman said:


> That should be great for gluing tubes in.



Loctite 4902/4903 were initially formulated for medical devices. 

These glues are available for purchase, and will run you about $65.00 for a 20g bottle (less than 3/4 of an oz)....But only $504.00 you buy it in one pound bottles.

For me, I think I'll "stick" with regular CA or epoxy.

Henkel Loctite 4902 Flexible Cyanoacrylate Adhesive Clear 20 g Bottle

Loctite - 1875841 - 4902™ Instant Adhesive, 20 gram Bottle

Loctite 4902 Flexible Cyanoacrylate Adhesive - Clear Liquid 1 Pound Bottle - Shear Strength 1745 psi, Tensile Strength 2085 psi -1875842 [PRICE is per BOTTLE] - - Amazon.com

Henkel Loctite 4903 Flexible Cyanoacrylate Adhesive Clear 20 g Bottle


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## TonyL (Jun 27, 2015)

If that Loc-tite product can provide all of the qualities that are associated with a workable, durable,high-gloss etc finish; wouldn't it be desirable assuming it was affordable and posed no health and safety risks? I am not making a statement; I asking all a genuine question. 

If the answer is yes, I would try it. Then only time and handling will tell. I am on the right track?


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## OKLAHOMAN (Jun 27, 2015)

While I agree flexibility in a CA finish and tube adhesion could be beneficial I think and I will stand corrected if wrong Ed was just showing  CA flexibility to the extreme and not recommending we buy Loctite  4902 or 4903. Their are a number of CA's that have some flex that are not made for the medical industry at prices that are more in line with what we as pen makers are used to paying maybe a few dollars more but not in the same ball park as Loctite 4902 and 4903.


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## edstreet (Jun 27, 2015)

OKLAHOMAN said:


> While I agree flexibility in a CA finish and tube adhesion could be beneficial I think and I will stand corrected if wrong Ed was just showing  CA flexibility to the extreme and not recommending we buy Loctite  4902 or 4903. Their are a number of CA's that have some flex that are not made for the medical industry at prices that are more in line with what we as pen makers are used to paying maybe a few dollars more but not in the same ball park as Loctite 4902 and 4903.




Interesting to note was that Roy was the only one who seemed to understand the purpose of posting the video   I can say this much there are a great number of discussions that need to happen on the whole CA realm that is impossible to have in the current environment.  Performance however is what everyone should be focusing on.  I think I am glad I did not post the one on black lights.




TonyL said:


> If that Loc-tite product can provide all of the qualities that are associated with a workable, durable,high-gloss etc finish; wouldn't it be desirable assuming it was affordable and posed no health and safety risks? I am not making a statement; I asking all a genuine question.
> 
> If the answer is yes, I would try it. Then only time and handling will tell. I am on the right track?



I have to commend you.  You have an open mind and willing to look for better ways of doing things and that is what is at stake here.  By limiting yourself to certain things only you are doing more harm than good, which you are obviously not doing.


As for the whole flex thing.  Those whom I have shown, in person mind you, a few samples of what flex can do for you really understands things.  As to the crowd who seems to be bashing on flex, I just feel bad for them as they have yet to reach enlightenment, that comes with education among other things.


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## ed4copies (Jun 27, 2015)

_As for the whole flex thing.  Those whom I have shown, in person mind  you, a few samples of what flex can do for you really understands  things.  As to the crowd who seems to be bashing on flex, I just feel  bad for them as they have yet to reach enlightenment, that comes with  education among other things._

Certainly no lack of self-esteem!

"I'm so good, too bad about you all!!"


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## edstreet (Jun 27, 2015)

thewishman said:


> That should be great for gluing tubes in.



Not really, see what Roy posted.  He was spot on in his comments.


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## alphageek (Jun 27, 2015)

edstreet said:


> Those whom I have shown, in person mind you, a few samples of what flex can do for you really understands things.  As to the crowd who seems to be bashing on flex, I just feel bad for them as they have yet to reach enlightenment, that comes with education among other things.



Ed, I don't see a crowd bashing on flex.   All I've seen is that every chance you get, you tell us how bad certain products are to use no matter how some others on the forum have had great results with those products.    If you want us to reach enlightenment, then you'll have to share the great examples wi us rather than just bashing the rest.  As for being open minded, I suggest yo do the same.   CA îs one of the most varied things in pen turning.    There is dozens of methods and products, which means the variations are in the hundreds not even counting for each persons take on it.

For example, I've mostly stayed out of the acetone/non-acetone discussion because I don't use accelator when I finish.... However, I do see beautiful pens that others have made using both, so it can't be all bad, no matter how often you tell us that acetone is as bad for a finish.


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## TonyL (Jun 27, 2015)

Why does it matter if others express their "approval" or "disapproval" of how something is done? If the delivery or content of a comment causes one to believe they are stupid or inexperienced and I therefore irrationally adopted that belief (that I believe I am stupid, etc.) wouldn't I have the problem? All questions were asked rhetorically LOL.

Why information is shared or even how it is shared, I don't believe detracts from the value of the information. This isn't about who we are going to include in our wills or share dinner with. We are making pens...and 90% of the time building relatively friendly, at least cordial relationships. I think those are pretty good odds. 

Okay...I said what I thought , in this great country that we live in, in the hopes of peace, not perfection, just peace.

Now, I am going to read The Ultimate Pen Book that my beautiful sister in law sent  me (Copyright 2010). She found it in the her public library for 10 bucks! 

Have a great night folks .


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## OKLAHOMAN (Jun 27, 2015)

Don't take the bate


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## Smitty37 (Jun 27, 2015)

Are you saying I was wrong in my assessment that it would be more beneficial as a glue that a finishing product?  Interesting.  Do you ccconsider that bashing?


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## TonyL (Jun 27, 2015)

bait? LOL. Hey...made one of your RBs yesterday. I need to post pics. I have a light tent, but too darn lazy.


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## OKLAHOMAN (Jun 27, 2015)

Well said!


TonyL said:


> Why does it matter if others express their "approval" or "disapproval" of how something is done? If the delivery or content of a comment causes one to believe they are stupid or inexperienced and I therefore irrationally adopted that belief (that I believe I am stupid, etc.) wouldn't I have the problem? All questions were asked rhetorically LOL.
> 
> Why information is shared or even how it is shared, I don't believe detracts from the value of the information. This isn't about who we are going to include in our wills or share dinner with. We are making pens...and 90% of the time building relatively friendly, at least cordial relationships. I think those are pretty good odds.
> 
> ...


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## OKLAHOMAN (Jun 27, 2015)

Tony that was directed at Ed S.  Tiring to stop a thread from going down hill
:biggrin:





TonyL said:


> bait? LOL. Hey...made one of your RBs yesterday. I need to post pics. I have a light tent, but too darn lazy.


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## jeremiahhix (Jun 27, 2015)

I have switched to a flex CA finish in the past 8 or so months and ti be honest I am seeing better results out of my pens.  I have a lot of attorneys that travel around the country every week that I work with and I have sent pens with several of them to see how the humidity factor against wood held up.  As we all know when wood goes from dry to humid back to dry ect... it moves.  It expands and contracts.  This being said if you dipped a piece of wood in glass and it expanded what would happen to the glass?  If you did the same with something that has flex what would happen then?  I had a couple pens (this is about 5-8 months after traveling) come back to me cracked which had (not naming the brand because frankly this is simply passing information along, not trying to start a brand war)a rigid CA finish on them.  So far I have 6 pens (flex CA) out that are traveling the country and have been for the past 7-8 months that haven't come back to me.  So far so good, time obviously will tell.  This is in no way saying one is better than the other, it is simple facts that I have seen to be true.  Different strokes for different folks as they say.  The tests I have going are simply to see which ones work the best in my opinion.  For now I will continue to go with a Flex CA.  To each their own.


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## OKLAHOMAN (Jun 27, 2015)

Jeremiah, thanks  as you said wood expands and contracts and back in my days when I was doing art shows across the country that was the biggest reason I never did wood pens. Going from Houston with humidity in the 90's to Phoenix where it never hit the teens you could hear them crack. I might have tried a flex CA if I had been educated about them.


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## Dan Masshardt (Jun 27, 2015)

jeremiahhix said:


> I have switched to a flex CA finish in the past 8 or so months and ti be honest I am seeing better results out of my pens.  I have a lot of attorneys that travel around the country every week that I work with and I have sent pens with several of them to see how the humidity factor against wood held up.  As we all know when wood goes from dry to humid back to dry ect... it moves.  It expands and contracts.  This being said if you dipped a piece of wood in glass and it expanded what would happen to the glass?  If you did the same with something that has flex what would happen then?  I had a couple pens (this is about 5-8 months after traveling) come back to me cracked which had (not naming the brand because frankly this is simply passing information along, not trying to start a brand war)a rigid CA finish on them.  So far I have 6 pens (flex CA) out that are traveling the country and have been for the past 7-8 months that haven't come back to me.  So far so good, time obviously will tell.  This is in no way saying one is better than the other, it is simple facts that I have seen to be true.  Different strokes for different folks as they say.  The tests I have going are simply to see which ones work the best in my opinion.  For now I will continue to go with a Flex CA.  To each their own.



How does the flex finish feel?  Can you tell the finishes apart once done by visual or feel?


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## Smitty37 (Jun 27, 2015)

No argument that there would be an advantage to a flexible finish over one that is rigid if you want the glass like finish.  The question I would ask (because I don't know the answer) is -- do you get as, for want of a better word, 'nice' a glassy finish with the flex?


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## edstreet (Jun 27, 2015)

Dan Masshardt said:


> jeremiahhix said:
> 
> 
> > I have switched to a flex CA finish in the past 8 or so months and ti be honest I am seeing better results out of my pens.  I have a lot of attorneys that travel around the country every week that I work with and I have sent pens with several of them to see how the humidity factor against wood held up.  As we all know when wood goes from dry to humid back to dry ect... it moves.  It expands and contracts.  This being said if you dipped a piece of wood in glass and it expanded what would happen to the glass?  If you did the same with something that has flex what would happen then?  I had a couple pens (this is about 5-8 months after traveling) come back to me cracked which had (not naming the brand because frankly this is simply passing information along, not trying to start a brand war)a rigid CA finish on them.  So far I have 6 pens (flex CA) out that are traveling the country and have been for the past 7-8 months that haven't come back to me.  So far so good, time obviously will tell.  This is in no way saying one is better than the other, it is simple facts that I have seen to be true.  Different strokes for different folks as they say.  The tests I have going are simply to see which ones work the best in my opinion.  For now I will continue to go with a Flex CA.  To each their own.
> ...



The flex finish feels like any other CA finish does.

In some cases (i.e. the glue that I use) you have the BLO+CA effect in the bottle so no need to add that. (no yellowing over time either)

The additive that yields 'flex' is a rubber byproduct, it's clear and provides added strength for bonding.  Adds to shock resistant and bend and forms with pressure.

I.e.  In person I can show you a pen that has been finished with a flex CA and a clip that has caused the CA to MOVE and reduce stress, pressure  and tension from the clip.  Also you can put one in a chuck and the CA finish will *NOT* crack or spiderweb.  Yet it will mold and bend to the stress provided. (to a limited degree mind you)

In closing, no you can not tell the difference with casual observation.


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## jeremiahhix (Jun 28, 2015)

Smitty37 said:


> No argument that there would be an advantage to a flexible finish over one that is rigid if you want the glass like finish.  The question I would ask (because I don't know the answer) is -- do you get as, for want of a better word, 'nice' a glassy finish with the flex?



It's not too difficult to get a glass finish out of the flex Ca.  The term flex is slightly misunderstood by a lot of people (it was to me until I tried it) that haven't tried it yet.  I finishes hard like rigid Ca for the most part.  Here is a picture of the first pen I made with a flex Ca finish.  It has 5 or 6 coats over my wastewood casting. Please excuse the lack of quality, this was taken with a cell phone a little under a year ago.


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## alphageek (Jun 28, 2015)

edstreet said:


> The flex finish feels like any other CA finish does.  In some cases (i.e. the glue that I use) you have the BLO+CA effect in the bottle so no need to add that. (no yellowing over time either)  The additive that yields 'flex' is a rubber byproduct, it's clear and provides added strength for bonding.  Adds to shock resistant and bend and forms with pressure.  I.e.  In person I can show you a pen that has been finished with a flex CA and a clip that has caused the CA to MOVE and reduce stress, pressure  and tension from the clip.  Also you can put one in a chuck and the CA finish will *NOT* crack or spiderweb.  Yet it will mold and bend to the stress provided. (to a limited degree mind you)  In closing, no you can not tell the difference with casual observation.



So if this is truly the case, I have one question for you.   Instead of constantly bashing other bands and beating around the bush, why haven't you just shared the details of the brand, model and source of this amazing product?   Most of us when asked what products work for us, we share our sources.   You seem to want to keep this a secret and instead just bash the rest.


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## alphageek (Jun 28, 2015)

jeremiahhix said:


> It's not too difficult to get a glass finish out of the flex Ca.  The term flex is slightly misunderstood by a lot of people (it was to me until I tried it) that haven't tried it yet.  I finishes hard like rigid Ca for the most part.  Here is a picture of the first pen I made with a flex Ca finish.  It has 5 or 6 coats over my wastewood casting. Please excuse the lack of quality, this was taken with a cell phone a little under a year ago.



Beautiful pen!!   It would be great if you posted more!!   So...  Since your promoting the finish, would you share more details?  What CA, do you use accelator, etc?


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## OKLAHOMAN (Jun 28, 2015)

Dean I also have a question as I have read every post in this thread and the only bashing is coming from you. I see no bashing of any brand. If a brand was bashed in an other thread your comments belong there. This thread has all been a nice talk except for your and Ed Browns comments. Can't we all play nice


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## jeremiahhix (Jun 28, 2015)

Personally I use Bob Smith Industries Super Gold+ Medium.  I found if you sand smooth (typically with #600 then with #800 Abranet followed with #2400 or so auto sandpaper (wet) then polished with Novus #3 and #2 it is extremely easy to get the glass looking finish.  That is my method, happy to share because we all want to better the industry and help each other out.

Here is a link to the CA I use:http://www.amazon.com/Super-gold-ga...F8&qid=1435464829&sr=1-1&keywords=super-gold+


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## OKLAHOMAN (Jun 28, 2015)

[thank you. We are here to learn, maybe we all might not agree with any method but we need to have an open mindQUOTE=jeremiahhix;1778141]Personally I use Bob Smith Industries Super Gold+ Medium.  I found if you sand smooth (typically with #600 then with #800 Abranet followed with #2400 or so auto sandpaper (wet) then polished with Novus #3 and #2 it is extremely easy to get the glass looking finish.  That is my method, happy to share because we all want to better the industry and help each other out.

Here is a link to the CA I use:Amazon.com : Super-gold gap filling 2oz Bob Smith Ind. : General Purpose Glues : Office Products[/QUOTE]


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## jeremiahhix (Jun 28, 2015)

And this is the accellerator I use:  http://www.amazon.com/Bob-Smith-151...sim_229_1?ie=UTF8&refRID=1HMCTJSGPQ7GDYFJEF30

The Ca is pricey, honestly I find it to be worth it because of the quality of finish it provides.  Everyone I have showed it to in person has switched to it, no questions asked.  If someone hasn't tried it I challenge you to give it a try.  What's the worst that can happen?  You find out you dont like it and you have some great medical grade super glue to seal up wounds with for the family... I have closed up several scrapes with it.  It doesn't sting like other glues or even the liquid skin stuff.  It doesn't melt styrofoam either.  It is a much less abrasive glue. Great stuff!


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## jeremiahhix (Jun 28, 2015)

Most turners use Micromesh, I have some and I use it occasionally but the sandpapers I listed above will give a nice glass finish on my pens.  

If we all did the same thing everyday this world would be a boring place.  Variety brings a flavor and spice to life. An open mind will allow us to better ourselves. You are right Roy.


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## Dale Lynch (Jun 28, 2015)

I use Hyperbond thin flex CA and accelerator through various layers.The finish on this pen is about 3-4 thousands thick,wet sanded 2000g buffed with Dico PBC.

It works beautifully for a finish.


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## edstreet (Jun 28, 2015)

alphageek said:


> edstreet said:
> 
> 
> > The flex finish feels like any other CA finish does.  In some cases (i.e. the glue that I use) you have the BLO+CA effect in the bottle so no need to add that. (no yellowing over time either)  The additive that yields 'flex' is a rubber byproduct, it's clear and provides added strength for bonding.  Adds to shock resistant and bend and forms with pressure.  I.e.  In person I can show you a pen that has been finished with a flex CA and a clip that has caused the CA to MOVE and reduce stress, pressure  and tension from the clip.  Also you can put one in a chuck and the CA finish will *NOT* crack or spiderweb.  Yet it will mold and bend to the stress provided. (to a limited degree mind you)  In closing, no you can not tell the difference with casual observation.
> ...




Note the accelerator is not acetone based.   It also provides more support in the lifespan of the pen.

Also worth noting is something I would urge everyone to look into is ...  CA hinges. It's not a hard concept to understand but it does work very good in our industry.  I have been using a flex CA in every photo I have posted here on IAP for a good number of years now.  Do I share info? Yes I do, it's mostly to those who ask me directly.  

It's also not my job to beat everyone over the head with something and force feed education to the masses, yet I am being ask to do just that.  What I will do is this, I will put info out there and those who are interested, eager and willing to see things will be very pleased with the results.  Going against the group think mentality and looking for superior technology is what we should be about no?

Numerous people here will report they use flex agents in their CA with beautiful results.  Many may not understand or comprehend the long term helpful effects of this and that's fine.


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## Dale Lynch (Jun 28, 2015)

Flex ca is great for a finish but there are limitations in blanks building.I will take a pic tomorrow of the same pen to show.


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## alphageek (Jun 28, 2015)

jeremiahhix said:


> Personally I use Bob Smith Industries Super Gold+ Medium.  I found if you sand smooth (typically with #600 then with #800 Abranet followed with #2400 or so auto sandpaper (wet) then polished with Novus #3 and #2 it is extremely easy to get the glass looking finish.  That is my method, happy to share because we all want to better the industry and help each other out.  Here is a link to the CA I use:http://www.amazon.com/Super-gold-gap-filling-Smith-Ind/dp/B0000DD1QN/ref=sr_1_1?s=office-products&ie=UTF8&qid=1435464829&sr=1-1&keywords=super-gold%2B




Awesome!!!  Thank you VERY much...   This kind of direct answer is very helpful!    From an education perspective, can you tell me how we know this has "flex" agents?   It's gap filling, but I don't know that anyone has ever pointed out a correlation there.... Or is it something else I'm missing?


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## alphageek (Jun 28, 2015)

OKLAHOMAN said:


> Dean I also have a question as I have read every post in this thread and the only bashing is coming from you. I see no bashing of any brand. If a brand was bashed in an other thread your comments belong there. This thread has all been a nice talk except for your and Ed Browns comments. Can't we all play nice



I see no bashing from me.  If you see bashing, I welcome you to point it out to the moderators.   What I was trying to do is further the discussion with some questions, but I think I'lll stop asking Ed since my last one was a pretty straight forward question - Ed obviously doesn't want to share the answer so I'm glad others are!


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## edstreet (Jun 28, 2015)

alphageek said:


> jeremiahhix said:
> 
> 
> > Personally I use Bob Smith Industries Super Gold+ Medium.  I found if you sand smooth (typically with #600 then with #800 Abranet followed with #2400 or so auto sandpaper (wet) then polished with Novus #3 and #2 it is extremely easy to get the glass looking finish.  That is my method, happy to share because we all want to better the industry and help each other out.  Here is a link to the CA I use:Amazon.com : Super-gold gap filling 2oz Bob Smith Ind. : General Purpose Glues : Office Products
> ...




Correct, you are missing something.







Note the part about the CA hinges?













I have been testing things out for some time now...


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## edstreet (Jun 28, 2015)

alphageek said:


> So if this is truly the case, I have one question for you.   Instead of constantly bashing other bands and beating around the bush, why haven't you just shared the details of the brand, model and source of this amazing product?   Most of us when asked what products work for us, we share our sources.   You seem to want to keep this a secret and instead just bash the rest.



The answer is simple. 



Because it's not just one product ....



Hence the purpose of this post in the start.


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## alphageek (Jun 28, 2015)

edstreet said:


> Correct, you are missing something.  Note the part about the CA hinges?  I have been testing things out for some time now...



Thank you Ed, I think you just round about answered my other question to you.    However your answer doesn't help my question to Jeremieh, it makes it worse.   You point out the part about CA hinges, but that points to their insta-flex line.   Jeremieh says he uses the super gold, which doesn't line up in your chart with the flex stuff.  So my question remains... If the supergold is being used as a great example of flex CA, how do we figure that out since it's not listed as a flex?

Jeremieh - I'm not doubting your results, just trying to figure out how to know its a "flex" product.


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## OKLAHOMAN (Jun 28, 2015)

Dean, I'm not sure and I could be wrong but the chart shows the Supergold best for rubber and good for hinge. I would guess that's a flex CA


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## edstreet (Jun 28, 2015)

alphageek said:


> edstreet said:
> 
> 
> > Correct, you are missing something.  Note the part about the CA hinges?  I have been testing things out for some time now...
> ...




It is listed as a flex.  Super gold is odorless because it is methoxyethyl.  Look at it as insta-flex with additional stuff in it.  Super-gold is the flagship product.  Nor is it cheap bu I can show you, in person, the benefits of it's use.

I know it's a flex because of 2 reasons. A) I have used it and verified it myself and B) I called and spoke numerous times with the company about their products.  Also with their help and locktite's help I have a good write up on several topics:  Shattered glass effect, accelerators, CA cure process, etc..    Also if you look on their gallery page guess who's work you will find there under the 'art' section.  BSI Adhesive's Photo Gallery

Now let me ask YOU a question. If you had several game changers and you knew beyond any doubt that any topic relating to CA would go bad to horrible due to a number of reasons and you knew that most people would not be able to wrap their heads about the new stuff; how reluctant would you be to share info?   I would like to point out the start of this thread as a very good example of this, look at the number of people who ganked and derailed the thread topic at hand.


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## alphageek (Jun 28, 2015)

OKLAHOMAN said:


> Dean, I'm not sure and I could be wrong but the chart shows the Supergold best for rubber and good for hinge. I would guess that's a flex CA



Roy,  I don't see any way to get "flex" from that chart other that the 2 products named flex.    That chart shows 5 different products as best for rubber.   That chart has nothing to do with the flexibility of the product.   It is a chart of which of their CA glues are recommended for which materials. ( wood, rubber,etc.).

One thing that may not be clear to people is what they mean by CA hinge.   Those of us who have built model airplanes in the past know what those are... Most penturners probably do not.  A CA hinge is a sandwich .. It is normally a layer of Mylar with a layer of fabric or paper on top and bottom.   A slit is made into the control surfaces of the model airplane and the hinge is inserted.   Thin CA is then wicked into the slot to bond the hinge material to the wing or tail surfaces.   The CA holds in the hinge, it doesn't make it.

In general any THIN CA glue is good for these "CA hinges"... This company just makes one that it markets specifically for that.   Maybe it works better for the purpose they are listing... Maybe it works better for pens too....  However, this chart does nothing to actually prove which contains any "flex agents".


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## edstreet (Jun 28, 2015)

alphageek said:


> OKLAHOMAN said:
> 
> 
> > Dean, I'm not sure and I could be wrong but the chart shows the Supergold best for rubber and good for hinge. I would guess that's a flex CA
> ...




How about when you put a finished pen, WITH CA, in the chuck, clamp it down good and you can watch the CA flex and not shatter? 

Also when you call the company and confirm it? 

One can also read.



> SUPER-GOLD™ and SUPER-GOLD+™ are our odorless INSTA-CURE CAs They are non-frosting and take only 2 or 3 seconds longer to bond. There are no fumes that irritate the nose and eyes. The SUPER-GOLD™’s do not attack white foam; therefore, they can be used in the building of foam core wings and the assembly and repair of plastic and foam ARF’s. They will not fog clear plastic. SUPER-GOLD+™ is ideal for attaching clear canopies in plastic model kits; however, MAXI-CURE™ is still recommended for assembling the rest of plastic kits. Wood can be bonded to white foam with SUPER-GOLD +™ in less than fifteen seconds. For bonding foam to foam, spray a very light fog of INSTA-SET™ to one piece and apply SUPER-GOLD+™ to the other before joining. Excess INSTA-SET™ may create too much heat, which can melt the foam.* Both SUPER-GOLD™’s cure to a more flexible consistency for better shock absorbtion*. Whenever a large amount of CA is to be used in such applications as saturating fiberglass or Kevlar, SUPER-GOLD™ eliminates the irritating fumes from the evaporating monomer that make repeated use of CA unpleasant at times.


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## alphageek (Jun 28, 2015)

edstreet said:


> How about when you put a finished pen, WITH CA, in the chuck, clamp it down good and you can watch the CA flex and not shatter?  Also when you call the company and confirm it?



I wasn't arguing with you calling the company, I was asking how that chart was supposed to answer the question.  "Ed says" doesn't help when people read this later and want to compare brands, types,etc.

As for your "clamp test" - I'd have to see what you mean by clamp it down good.   Any significant clamping is going to harm the pen regardless of CA shattering or not.   I have seen this myself.   I've done a CA finish in the past (closed end pen) where it tried to put it back in a chuck to clean up the closed end...  The wood got damaged, but my finish didn't shatter.  Does that mean my CA passes a flex test?


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## edstreet (Jun 28, 2015)

What CA are you using?

Also you never answered MY question but I have answered several of yours.  Quid Pro Quo.


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## alphageek (Jun 28, 2015)

edstreet said:


> What CA are you using?  Also you never answered MY question but I have answered several of yours.  Quid Pro Quo.



Î have no problem answer that... I have in the past.   I normally use E-Z bond, but in a pinch if I have run out or let it get to old I have used Bsi or Zap brands from a local hobby shop.  

However, like I've said in the other thread I don't use accelerator when I finish... I either do blo/ca or straight CA.    

Way back when the local chapters first formed, I demod my finish to the Milwaukee chapter.  Unfortunately they didn't video back then or I'd share it.


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## alphageek (Jun 28, 2015)

edstreet said:


> One can also read.



FYI - that boldest part of the post (which it turns out forum runner doesn't bold at all dang it) is the best answer you had given.  That answers the "how do we know flexible" way more than the chart.   Quoting the movie Battleship: "Lead with that next time".


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## OKLAHOMAN (Jun 28, 2015)

Dean, as I had said I could be wrong, just thought that if it was good for rubber it would have to be flexible, maybe not. Thanks for the explanation as to CA hinge, I did not know that.  





alphageek said:


> OKLAHOMAN said:
> 
> 
> > Dean, I'm not sure and I could be wrong but the chart shows the Supergold best for rubber and good for hinge. I would guess that's a flex CA
> ...


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## alphageek (Jun 28, 2015)

OKLAHOMAN said:


> Dean, as I had said I could be wrong, just thought that if it was good for rubber it would have to be flexible, maybe not. Thanks for the explanation as to CA hinge, I did not know that.



Here is a video link for those who might not be able to visualize what I described.   

https://youtu.be/QpwEvmhpAjY

As you can see in the video, the hinge itself is flexible and the important parts of the CA are its wicking ability and its strength.   I'm not saying that the CA can't be flexible too, I just wanted people to understand that a "CA hinge" is a hinge glued in by CA, not a hinge made from CA.

And now I have the urge to build another model plane... It's been years and I don't need another hobby!!   I may have to try and dig out some pictures of my planes to share.


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## edstreet (Jun 28, 2015)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wpl_WTPIal4

This is rather on the thick side.  This was build up on the bushings.  After this video the ends were trimmed then thickness was removed.

Going back to what Jeremiah said, when you are dealing with many of these additives your application methods need to also change, as well as the accelerator to achieve the best results possible.


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## alphageek (Jun 28, 2015)

edstreet said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wpl_WTPIal4
> 
> This is rather on the thick side.  This was build up on the bushings.  After this video the ends were trimmed then thickness was removed.
> 
> Going back to what Jeremiah said, when you are dealing with many of these additives your application methods need to also change, as well as the accelerator to achieve the best results possible.



That looks pretty flexible (weird but it doesn't "sound" flexible-it sounds crunchy but that might be just because of the way you rub it as you bend it)... But it doesn't look very clear?   Its pretty opaque - is that from your wax on the bushings or something else??


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## OKLAHOMAN (Jun 28, 2015)

Video, helped  explain the hinge but I still wonder if it's best for rubber would it not have to be flexible? I'm trying to visualize gluing two pieces of rubber together with a non flex Ca and bending the two pieces slightly . Would not the joint break whereas if it was a flex CA on a slight bent the CA would flex therefore the joint would hold. Not to argue just why would it be best for rubber if not it being flexible, or is it just that it bonds best to rubber. I guess it could be be both.   





alphageek said:


> OKLAHOMAN said:
> 
> 
> > Dean, as I had said I could be wrong, just thought that if it was good for rubber it would have to be flexible, maybe not. Thanks for the explanation as to CA hinge, I did not know that.
> ...


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## edstreet (Jun 28, 2015)

alphageek said:


> edstreet said:
> 
> 
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wpl_WTPIal4
> ...



If I was rubbed with 240 grit sandpaper I would not be clear either 







This best shows things.  

Yes by flexing the ends like that they will break, more often cleanly than not.


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## alphageek (Jun 28, 2015)

OKLAHOMAN said:


> Video, helped  explain the hinge but I still wonder if it's best for rubber would it not have to be flexible? I'm trying to visualize gluing two pieces of rubber together with a non flex Ca and bending the two pieces slightly . Would not the joint break whereas if it was a flex CA on a slight bent the CA would flex therefore the joint would hold. Not to argue just why would it be best for rubber if not it being flexible, or is it just that it bonds best to rubber. I guess it could be be both.



I don't think so Roy... you have to be careful reading data into a chart thats not there.   If Ed is right and we have to be very picky about choosing our glue for flexible agents, then reading "rubber=flexible glue" doesn't ring right.  Look down the rubber column.  5 items are "best", 3 are good and 4 aren't marked.  If having to glue rubber means you have to be flexible, that means 2/3 of the products are, which doesn't line up with what I think we are being told... From whats said above, only the supergold and insta-flex have had any claim in this thread of being flexible ones (and there is good reasons for some CAs to not be flexible).


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## edstreet (Jun 28, 2015)

alphageek said:


> OKLAHOMAN said:
> 
> 
> > Video, helped  explain the hinge but I still wonder if it's best for rubber would it not have to be flexible? I'm trying to visualize gluing two pieces of rubber together with a non flex Ca and bending the two pieces slightly . Would not the joint break whereas if it was a flex CA on a slight bent the CA would flex therefore the joint would hold. Not to argue just why would it be best for rubber if not it being flexible, or is it just that it bonds best to rubber. I guess it could be be both.
> ...




sooo flexible material meets non-flexible glue what do you think the results will be?


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## Dale Lynch (Jun 28, 2015)

Spanx said:


> I use Hyperbond thin flex CA and accelerator through various layers.The finish on this pen is about 3-4 thousands thick,wet sanded 2000g buffed with Dico PBC.
> 
> It works beautifully for a finish.



After time the flex ca showed weakness.That is using it to segment the blank.The CA being flexable allowed the woods to shift independantly under the outer finish.You can feel every seam now.

Great for a finish,poor for segmenting wood..


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## alphageek (Jun 28, 2015)

edstreet said:


> sooo flexible material meets non-flexible glue what do you think the results will be?



I'm guessing not really all that different than when non-flexible material meets flexible glue. 

If your claiming that only flexible glue can bond flexible materials?  Then you're going to paint yourself into a corner when the glues you claim aren't flexible can bond rubber just as well as those that are.


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## alphageek (Jun 28, 2015)

And with that last post, I think I'm done with this thread for a while.. I think your the one trying to bait me now with that last post.  I believe that we've added as much use to IAP here until some others come in to post.   I'm not trying to knock flex - I think there is a strong chance for benefit to the community.  But without some questions being answered for the public, the information shared was sparse... Now it's not as sparse.


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## edstreet (Jun 28, 2015)

Spanx said:


> Spanx said:
> 
> 
> > I use Hyperbond thin flex CA and accelerator through various layers.The finish on this pen is about 3-4 thousands thick,wet sanded 2000g buffed with Dico PBC.
> ...




Even with basic logic that would make sense.  One of the strongest points to flex agents is more freedom of movement.  In your case that is VERY bad.  Also I would have to ask if the glue was non-flexible would there now be a crack in the seam since the wood did shift?  I would think that answer would lie in the strength of the glue used.  Something like locktite E-120HP it would not but regular CA I would think would.


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## edstreet (Jun 28, 2015)

Flexible glue + non-flexible material = no flexing going on.

Flexible glue + flexible material = less stress, less cracking and stronger bond joint.

Non-flexible glue + flexible material = CRACK


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## Dale Lynch (Jun 28, 2015)

Not being too keen on logic I found out the hard way.


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## Smitty37 (Jun 28, 2015)

edstreet said:


> alphageek said:
> 
> 
> > OKLAHOMAN said:
> ...


I am just guessing here but I have the idea that it depends on the joint to a large degree and what you were bonding the flexible material to. Would it not?

Intuitively I would think bonding two pieces of rubber together would differ from bonding a piece of rubber to a piece of wood or bonding two pieces of flexible plexiglass the bond would differ than bonding two pieces rubber.


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## Sylvanite (Jun 28, 2015)

Spanx said:


> After time the flex ca showed weakness.That is using it to segment the blank.The CA being flexable allowed the woods to shift independantly under the outer finish.You can feel every seam now.
> 
> Great for a finish,poor for segmenting wood..


I suspect that has more to do with grain orientation than with the glue.

When wood expands and contracts with changes in temperature and humidity, it typically moves more in the direction of the grain than perpendicular to it.  Therefore, if your segmentation shows both face-grain and end-grain, then when the woods expand, the end-grain will become proud of the face grain.  I've noticed that happening even when using regular non-flexible CA glue for the segmentation.  Such movement also tends to fracture the finish at the glue lines.

I've taken to cutting wood segments so that the grain runs longitudinally to the pen axis for all the pieces.  That way, they all tend to move most in the same direction.  This minimizes the effect (but doesn't eliminate it entirely, as different types of wood still expand and contract at different rates).

I hope that helps,
Eric


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## Dale Lynch (Jun 28, 2015)

Sylvanite said:


> Spanx said:
> 
> 
> > After time the flex ca showed weakness.That is using it to segment the blank.The CA being flexable allowed the woods to shift independantly under the outer finish.You can feel every seam now.
> ...



That is what I was trying to show,that flex CA may not be the best glue for wood to wood segmenting.

Held up great for the finish,no fractures or cracks,just smooth,crystal clear bumps at the seams.


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## alphageek (Jun 28, 2015)

Spanx said:


> That is what I was trying to show,that flex CA may not be the best glue for wood to wood segmenting.
> 
> Held up great for the finish,no fractures or cracks,just smooth,crystal clear bumps at the seams.



Dale, I think what Eric was trying to say is that you can't blame just the flex CA for the bumps at the seams.   He was describing some hints to reduce the bumps no matter what glue you use.    Those "bumps" or ridges are the bane of  all of us who segment, and it only gets worse the more diverse the materials.


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## Dale Lynch (Jun 28, 2015)

I don't talk good,I wasn't trying to blame the CA for failing.I agree with eric about the woods moving everywichway.Just trying to illustrate the performace limitations of this particular CA.Went back to using titebond 3,it takes longer but restricts movement between the woods better.


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## edstreet (Jun 29, 2015)

Spanx brings up a very good point.  There is on one perfect glue for every situation.  Same holds true with many things, like methods, thoughts, vendors, products.


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## alphageek (Jun 29, 2015)

edstreet said:


> Spanx brings up a very good point.  There is on one perfect glue for every situation.  Same holds true with many things, like methods, thoughts, vendors, products.



Glad you're finally seeing that.  The same idea was posted on the very first reply to this thread. 



alphageek said:


> There is at least 2 sides to every debate and product.



Oh, wait - that was me! :biggrin:


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## edstreet (Jun 29, 2015)

Now you are being obtuse and argumentative, again.


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## alphageek (Jun 29, 2015)

edstreet said:


> Now you are being obtuse and argumentative, again.



Dude... learn what smilies are for!!!


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## farmer (Jun 29, 2015)

*Wow ED*



edstreet said:


> Now you are being obtuse and argumentative, again.


 
Did you ever think for a second that it would of been that big of a hassle to talk about CA glue or a CA finish .


At first I was more interested in it glueing pieces of wood to getter like inlays or segmenting 

But when the one guy replied that he didn't care for the ca as holding wood together.

Personally I worry about my products falling apart 10 years down the road.
Drying time is a killer if you are doing production and trying to make any wooden product as fast as possible, ( which I have pretty much given up on ).
I just buy more lathes because I am using my lathe to clamp the piece of wood on then I cut the wood to the right thickness.
I know this technic sounds strange but I can live cut wood to the thickness of a human hair.
MY point is It is it takes any where from 30 minutes to 24 hours for the glue or epoxy to set up.
If I make something that has 200 inlays  that is allot of time waiting for glue to dry .......
So I was hoping that this flexible Super glue would dry fast be extremely strong and will hold its strength for a few decades .

So how is the glue for holding wood together ?
How long does it bond?
Your personal opinion based on your research how is the finish.

Personally I want a hard finish............


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## nativewooder (Jul 22, 2015)

All the CA glue I have ever used had an expected life, in use, of about 10 years, so keep an eye on your turned wood treasures that have cracks and such filled with CA.


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