# Looking to go kitless!



## GrantH (Mar 13, 2012)

I've been talking with Shawn (Watch_Art) about going kitless and he has been a big help, as has the recent Kitless Pen tutorial. With that said, I am still confused on what tap/die combos I need and which drill bits to match. I have a basic list, but please...critique as you feel suited.


Center Drills
M12x0.8 tap and die 
M10x1.0 tap
7/16 or 11mm drill bit
9mm drill bit
10mm drill bit

These will, as mentioned in the tutorial, allow for the use of an el grande nib.  While I have never turned an El Grande FP, I think it's a decent starting point to pick things up. Ya gotta start somewhere!

I realize that you can make these pens however you feel, but how do you know that these taps and dies will work? How do you kjnow to pair each together? Are there "standard" sizes that a lot of you use?


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## GrantH (Mar 13, 2012)

I'm also having trouble finding the M12x0.8 tape setup in anything but triple start. I plan to start with single start, so i'm still looking.


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## Brooks803 (Mar 13, 2012)

If you're wanting single start then go with a 12x.75mm tap and die set. They can be found easily. I bought mine here: Victor Machinery - Metalworking tools and supplies  They also sell individual drill bits in uncommon metric sizes.


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## mredburn (Mar 13, 2012)

You dont need a m12 x .8 fro the cap threads, get the m12 x.75 instead from places like Enco, Victernet.com,Little machine shop,etc. Then if you decide that the m12 x .8 triple lead is right for you you can make that decision. The m12 x .75 tap and die will run you about $20.00 for the pair. Not $135 like the triple lead. I and Indy Pen Dance sell those and I dont recomend them for turners that are just starting to make kitless pens. Get your feet wet, learn what you like and dont like and then decide if they are worth paying for.


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## mredburn (Mar 13, 2012)

Also for the m12 tap we use a 7/16 drill bit so you have that covered. I use the m12 x .75 for my cap threads. I do that because it gives plenty of wall thickness where you tap the inside hole for the front section with 10mm and the outside with 12mm. 
Add 1mm of wall thickness on each side of the 12mm tapped hole for the cap and you get a cap that is 14mm in diameter (9/16)
I like .500-.512 (13mm) O.D.for my lower bodies and .570 (14.45mm) for the cap as a general guideline. If you like fatter pens go to a 14mm or (9/16) thread and 16mm (5/8) cap diameter.


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## GrantH (Mar 13, 2012)

This is what i'm looking at, now that i've rethought the taps/dies.


M10x1.0 HS Plug Tap................$6.10 	
M12x.75 HS Plug Tap................$9.60 	
M12x.75 HS 1" Round Die.........$9.90 	
Die Holder from Tex..................$47.00 	
"T" Drill Bit (.3580.....................Have..................Calls for 9mm (.3543)
"X" Drill Bit (.3970)....................Have..................Calls for 10mm (.3937)


I'm not certain The T or X bits will work, with a .004 difference in each, i'd think tolerances we're less than that when they were made...but I have been wrong many times before.  I realize it's only two bits, but if I can use what I have; even better.


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## mredburn (Mar 13, 2012)

WHat use is a 10mm drill bit for the taps? the "T" bit will work ok if not a little tight for the 10mm tap. A genereal rule of thumb is to subtract the pitch from the diameter in Metric threading.


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## GrantH (Mar 13, 2012)

Sorry, the 10mm is simply to undercut the barrels internal threads holding the section. I'm guessing this is not a critical measurement like some are. It looks to be so that the section slides a touch into the barrel before needing to be threaded as the section threads don't run to the shoulder. This is all coming from the BigShed Kitless Tutorial in the Library if you'd like to look at what I am referencing.


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## mredburn (Mar 13, 2012)

Ok, I hadnt read his tutorial. I use cutters to make that shoulder. That is not a critical area The x bit will work.


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## watch_art (Mar 14, 2012)

This is what I've been using.  Depending on the size you want to make things - thinner or thicker - you'll want to pick different sizes.  *

Barrel-*
O drill - allows for converter to slide all the way in smoothly.
T drill - before tap
10mm tap inside the barrel to fit the section
M10 X 1.0 X 1" HSS ROUND ADJUSTABLE DIE | eBay

then I use the Y to kill about the first 2 threads.  Makes it fit against the section better.  I do that instead of killing the threads on the section as I don't care for how that looks.  Just a personal preference.

*Cap*
23/64 drill - to allow the nib to fit
29/64 drill - for the threads - drill deep enough so the section fits in there, too.  
tap - 1/2 x 28tpi (which is kinda small for what I want to do)
1/2 drill - to kill some threads for a deeper fitting cap - personal preference I guess

*Section with #6 Jowo nib unit-*
10mm die - for threading to enter the barrel
J drill - clear for the tap
Then this tap:  M7.4x.5 from 
silverpenparts.com - TOOLS - Taps and dies 
Then to fit the nib unit in there...
N drill - to clear for the width of the housing
21/64 drill - to clear for the width of the collar or lip

*Section with #5 Bock nib unit*
A drill - to clear for tap
tap:
CLASSIC NIB - FEEDS
L drill -  to clear for the nib unit and for the converter on the backside unless you want the converter sticking all the way out of the section.  I don't like it - but it's a personal preference of course.
(by the way - those little #5 Bocks are SWEET -- highly recommended)


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## GrantH (Mar 14, 2012)

Thanks Shawn, now I have two ways to go about this; 3 actually. 

Did you miss the tap size on the #6 nib, though? Just wanted to make sure.


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## watch_art (Mar 14, 2012)

Nooo.  ??  That's the tap I use for my Jowo nib units.  I order from Meisternibs.


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## GrantH (Mar 14, 2012)

watch_art said:


> Nooo.  ??  That's the tap I use for my Jowo nib units.  I order from Meisternibs.



Sorry, meant the number 5 nib. Oops.


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## watch_art (Mar 14, 2012)

Oh yeah.  YEah, I just put the link up for the tap from that website.


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## Gilrock (Mar 15, 2012)

I originally tried to just buy the few drill bits I needed and then you will run into wanting a bit slightly smaller or larger than what you have....so I recommend getting the 115 bit set.  You can get a cheap 115 titanium bit set for $50 at Harbor Freight or Victor Machinery has 4 sets...I bought the highest priced one for $167 (DSUS-115A)...that set is really nice...I like how it has drill charts on the case and under each bit is the diameter of the bit to 3 decimal places.  So I've had times where I measure the size of a hole I need and just look at the measurements below the bits to pick the closest one.

Good Luck,
Gil


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## GrantH (Mar 15, 2012)

I have the large kit as well.  I have the bits covered, just trying to line up all the other stuff. I think I have it figured out as well now. Placing an order tonight/this afternoon.


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## Greg Haugen (Oct 14, 2013)

Where can I get a die holder with bearings, basically a live center?  The only I've found, and now have, for the 1" dies is solid.  There must be something better???

"Die Holder from Tex..................$47.00"  Where can I find "Tex"?


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## Bruce markwardt (Oct 14, 2013)

I'm not sure why you would need a die holder with bearings.  I put my die holder in a 1/2 inch drill chuck in the tailstock.  The pen piece is in a chuck in the headstock.  I then rotate the headstock with my left hand while holding the die holder with my right. Cuts threads no problem.

This is on my wood lathe.  Not sure if it would work on a metal lathe.


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## Greg Haugen (Oct 14, 2013)

Bruce, if the die holder is stationary (doesn't advance) and the blank is stationary (doesn't advance) wouldn't it strip off the threads at some point? Something has to advance if it's threading?  After all that's the purpose of a spring loaded tap guide. I have seen videos of a die holder in the tailstock that rotated and must have slid to advance some too on a wood lathe.  Maybe there's no bearings but there's movement at least.  The die holder that just came is welded solid as one piece with a 1/2" shank.  I've been searching the web for a die holder and searched through the IAP archives but haven't found anything.


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## The Penguin (Oct 14, 2013)

Greg Haugen said:


> Where can I get a die holder with bearings, basically a live center?  The only I've found, and now have, for the 1" dies is solid.  There must be something better???
> 
> *"Die Holder from Tex..................$47.00"*  Where can I find "Tex"?



I believe that refers to IAP user "texatdurango"


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## jyreene (Oct 14, 2013)

This is the die holder I use: 

http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=2314&category=

Per Brooks803 advice.


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## Greg Haugen (Oct 14, 2013)

Jyreene, I just found that one this evening.  It looks like twists and slides along a shaft? Is that correct?


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## jyreene (Oct 14, 2013)

Yes. That is correct.


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## Bruce markwardt (Oct 14, 2013)

Greg Haugen said:


> Bruce, if the die holder is stationary (doesn't advance) and the blank is stationary (doesn't advance) wouldn't it strip off the threads at some point? Something has to advance if it's threading?  After all that's the purpose of a spring loaded tap guide. I have seen videos of a die holder in the tailstock that rotated and must have slid to advance some too on a wood lathe.  Maybe there's no bearings but there's movement at least.  The die holder that just came is welded solid as one piece with a 1/2" shank.  I've been searching the web for a die holder and searched through the IAP archives but haven't found anything.



I don't tighten down the tailstock.  As you thread, it pulls itself closer to the headstock.  As you unthread (if I can invent that word) it pushes itself further from the tailstock.  Works for me!  That die holder you're describing is the one I use.

I do use a spring loaded tap guide.  The primary advantage for me is that it allows you to easily gauge how deep your threads are going.  I typically thread until the point is fully extended and then quit.

I've only been doing this for a month or so.  Started with the same fear and trepidation you have.  Once I got into it, the threading wasn't difficult at all.  

The one bit of advice I would offer is that you need a plan.  Cartoon drawings and real measurements will work.  For me, the major difficulty in going kitless was more in the drilling than in the threading.  Getting the right measurements for the convertor and nib to fit, and for the cap to post are the challenges.  I have a simple 8 1/2 X 11 sheet with my cartoon, measurements and notes.  I couldn't work without it.


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## ShallowJam (Oct 14, 2013)

What's the best approach for 1.5" dies? I haven't seen any holders for those. 

Also, where are people sourcing their spring-tap guides from?


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## Bruce markwardt (Oct 14, 2013)

Victor Machinery carries the 1.5" die holder and spring tap guide.


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## ShallowJam (Oct 15, 2013)

Bruce markwardt said:


> Victor Machinery carries the 1.5" die holder and spring tap guide.



unfortunately its a 3/4" shank which won't fit in a 1/2" drill chuck.


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## Curly (Oct 15, 2013)

ShallowJam said:


> unfortunately its a 3/4" shank which won't fit in a 1/2" drill chuck.



It has a 17/32" hole thru the 3/4" shank. Turn a cheap ugly coloured acrylic blank to 1/2" at one end to fit the drill chuck and 17/32" for the remainder to slip into the die holder. Chuck it up so that as you turn the die holder/die on to your pen part it advances as it cuts the thread by sliding down the rod you just made. Plastic usually doesn't need much force to cut threads into so hand force is enough to do the job. A transfer punch works for the 1/2" die holder.


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