# LARGER multi-start Tap & Die set?



## chugbug

When Mike put together the second tap & die order a few weeks ago (Part Deux), I was hoping it was for a new size. My heart sank when I heard it was the same size as before (but happy for the guys that missed the first one!).

That size was a 12mm diameter set. I'd like to get a larger diameter set (of mulit-start of course). Anyone know where I can get a larger set or whether it possible to put together another group buy for one (assuming there are others that do or would use a larger size that is)?

I'd like to get a set that is about 14mm diameter (but don't know what the pitch should be though). 

Any thoughts?

Thanks...John

John E. Brady
East Berlin, PA
www.jebspens.com


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## Texatdurango

Wow, that would allow for some pretty beefy pens, ceretainly larger than any kit pen I am aware of.  Any particular reason you want to make that large of a pen?

I had a customer who has arthritus really bad and wanted a large fat bodied pen so I made him one and using my metal lathe I cut some 13mm x .75mm threads for the cap to body threads.  He was happy but that was one fat pen!


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## chugbug

Hi Tex, thanks for posting. I don't want it for kit pens - I want it to use on my custom fountain pens. But to answer your question, 14mm threads wouldn't be that large, but then again would depend on the style of pen you were using it on, and the thread treatment-- the difference in the transition from the barrel to the threads. I use the larger diameter thread and make the threads the same diameter or close to the same diameter as the barrel instead of having the abrupt change in diameter from the barrel to the threads. 

On most of the kit pens I think mfg's just choose to use smaller thread sections on them to cut down on cost and the number of different parts they have to make. I think it compromises the look of the pen. Especially when they put those little nibs on them. The smaller diameter thread and nib sections on some make them look too much like an out of place add-on instead of being a part of the pen. Also makes them look top heavy (good example would be the Majestic Jr). But maybe that's just me.

I make ALL of my own FP parts, so I can make all my parts to the size I need for the style pen I want. It doesn't make for as beefy of a pen as you might imagine. To the contrary, it makes for a very comfortable pen (I've even sold some to female clients who purchased them for themselves). If you look at some of the very high-end fountain pens like Bexley, Conklin, Conway Stewart, all of those have barrels well larger than 14mm and have similar treatments with thread sections that are the same diameter as the barrels. Conway Stewart's Churchill, Winston and Bard FP's all have 15mm diameter barrels with that thread treatment.

I mostly use this thread treatment on my pen styles with what I refer to as "oversized caps" (vs "smooth caps" styles where the cap and barrel are the same diameter and a smooth transiton from cap to barrel and needs that steped transition to the threads--- but that line has blured over time). On these the barrel diameters are typically about 14 to 14.5mm. 

I'd just like to be able to add a multi-start thread feature to these pens, and thought 14mm would be about the same size as the SAE I'm using now. But that's one of the reason I posted here - to ask what other used (and hopefully not have to pay the full cost of mfg all by myself). But I didn't think I was alone in using larger size threads. I was really hoping that someone already had some, so I find that rather interesting that no one else might not.

I attached a sample pen to this post. If you would like to see other examples (and the dimensions), go to the link below. The two lower groups of pens at the bottom (the orange, and the two solid colored cap pens) . Those styles have larger threads (larger than the M12).

So I guess this mean I'm on my own?

Thanks...John

John E. Brady
JEB's PENs
www.jebspens.com

Link to the fountain pens referenced above:
http://www.jebspens.com/fp_custom.htm


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## Texatdurango

chugbug said:


> ...........
> So I guess this mean I'm on my own?
> http://www.jebspens.com/fp_custom.htm


 
You know John, you got me to thinking (and that hurts this close to nap time!)  I guess I got so focused on my smaller "bulb filler" type pens that I got myself in a rut and started making all my pens basically the same diameters give or take a few thousandths except for a couple totally custom pens.

I visited your site and liked what I saw, especially the "Grass clipless pen" where you incorperated one of the fountain/rollerball nibs, it looks sharp in the wider body and your nib sections are really nicely shaped.

If you get the contact info from Michael Redurn and contact the company inquiring about a larger multi-start tap and die set I might be interested if the prices run along the same lines.

So.......... that's two of us so far!   Maybe more will follow if the facts/prices were layed out.  If you don't have the time to do a group buy, I might take on the task but it would REALLY eat into my fishing time! 

Thanks for the eye opener!


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## BigShed

Depending on price I would be interested as well.:good:


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## wade45

Pending the price, Yes!!!


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## mredburn

You will need to get 12 commitments to get the price of a set down to around $100.00  +/- for just the tap and dies. Shipping from them, Paypal and dispersal shipping would have to be added on top. Different sizes and thread pitches make a difference in price.  Just before Joe started the first group buy I had just gotten a quote on the m12x.75 triple lead and it was $5.00 higher than the m12 x.8 triple lead.   I will be glad to give you the contact info when your ready.


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## Timebandit

I would be interested pending price


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## mrburls

I might be interested in a set. 

Keith "mrburls"


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## rstought

I'd be interested as well...


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## dtswebb

I would also be interested in purchasing a set.

Matthew


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## chugbug

Hi Guys, thanks. Glad there are others interested.

Mike - thanks for chiming in with your pricing info from before, it was helpful to get an idea of where we'd have to be at for an order. 
I've never done a group buy before, so would definately need some help on putting it together if there are enough interested and proceed.
You help and experience would be appreciated.

Tex - Understand the need to balance woodworking with the fishing... always a problem (if we just didn't have to waste all that time working)!

What about the 14mm size? Does that work for you guys? As I said in my original post, I suggested a 14mm because it is about the same size (dia) as the SAE I'm using now. I don't have access to a standard 14mm tap & die set, so I'm basing the size on how the dimensions on the new 12mm set worked out. On the new 12mm die, I get finished dimensions just under the 12mm (I get a thread OD of 11.89mm/.468"). On the tap, I use a 7/16" /.4375") drill size for the hole (11.113mm based on my conversion chart). If the finished dimensions of the 14mm die works out the same, the finished thread OD would be just under 14mm or about .55". On the tap, if the die dimensions work out to that, the drill size should work out to use a 33/64"/.5156" drill for the hole (13.097mm on my conversion chart) - same size I'm using now for the SAE tap. Those sizes work OK for me. Unless anyone would want to suggest another size (diameter), I'll assume the 14mm diameter is OK for everyone else.

But what about the rest of the dimensions (pitch and # starts)? It would be nice to get feedback from another pen maker that may be using a similar thread size to be sure the sizes are right (and not coming up with another custom size).

Mike - How did you guys come up with the dimensions on the 12mm set you ordered? Did your vendor contact help you with them? Can they give you finished dimensions? My son told me to search for a"Finished size" tap & die chart, and it would tell me all I needed to know. But I couldn't find one. 

Thanks again for eveyones interest. Any other ideas or suggestions would be welcomed!

Thanks...John

John E. Brady
JEB's PENs
www.jebspens.com


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## chugbug

One more thing... Reading the guidelines for the group buy, I see they recommend the coordinator be some that has been posting for a while and/or someone the other members are familiar with. I don't come to the IAP very often, I post on the FPN (www.fountainpennetwork.com) more frequently than I do here. So if Mike or someone else would want to take charge, so others would feel more comfortable, I wouldn't have a problem with it.

John

John E. Brady
JEB's PENs
www.jebspens.com


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## mredburn

I don't have a problem running another now that I'm about done with the other. 

The thread pitch on the 12mm tap/die sets was determined earlier when they had a group buy way before Joe and I ran these. I believe it matched a particular pen kits threads.

It was interesting to note that the quotes I received were different for the different pitches. I asked specifically if it did matter, the reply yes it does.. I'm not sure why but maybe finer threads take longer to cut or are harder to make. I also asked them specifically if they had any recommendation as to thread size or pitch, thinking they might have previous experience and could give us some pointers on what would be cheaper to make or faster or better etc. Nope the reply was we don't use them we just make them. You have to tell us what you want and then we can quote you what it costs. They are really very helpful other than that aspect. 

I like .75 or the .8 for pitch/thread size but in the 14mm a 1mm pitch may be the right size. 

I will contact them Monday and start an inquirery


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## BRobbins629

Although I'm not interested in purchasing this set, I can tell you that the size, pitch, and number of starts was a copy of the El/Grande/Churchill set.  The intention at the time of the very first buy was to be able to use some of the coupler components if desired as well as to go completely kitless.  A coupler was sent to the e-taps.com factory on Poland and they measured and came up with the specifications.  The first sets were about twice the cost what the current ones are.

As I have made many pens with the first set, I can offer some food for thought.  The major issue I have faced is the ability to line up patterns.  These are times when I wish it was a two rather than a three start.  I have also made some quad start on my CNC and find the aesthetics a little less pleasing than triple start.  If I were in the buy, I would increase the diameter and keep all other dimensions such as pitch the same.  

The only other item to explore might be the rake angle.  This was commented on in the very early days but not much since.  One person in the buy suggested the rake angle was not optimal for plastic.  I don't know what it should be, but perhaps the supplier could provide some insight.


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## soligen

I dont think I can justify the expense for another set, but based on my past research on taps & dies, please consider that becasue this is over 1/2" that you will most likely need a 1 1/2" die, so many people would need a new die holder.  Also you should check that the tap shank is not over 1/2" as I'm guessing most of us only have a 1/2" chuck.


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## gwd

I'd be interested as well...


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## chugbug

Mike - thanks for taking the lead. Since you've done it before, it will help keep things going smoother. As for asking the supplier for suggestion on sizes, I guess they don't make suggestions in case it doesn't work out. This way, they can say they only did what was ask of them.

Bruce - thanks for your input - very helpful. Seems there is always someone willing to give criticism, but never any help (in regards to the guy about the rake). 

If the die will be 1 1/2" diameter, and you don't have one, you can get it (or a set) at wttool.com (http://www.wttool.com/index/page/category/category_id/14647/). You can buy the individual sizes or a set of three. The 1 1/2" (P/N 0513-0007) is $11.95; the set (13/16", 1", 1 1/2" -P/N 0513-9980) is $25.95.

I don't know how the pitch is derived. Do you just picking one? I think the 1.0 would equate to about 25 tpi. I think that will look ok-- tighter than my current size. I Usually have 1/4" long threads. Compared to the M12-0.8, it would only be about 1 .5 less threads. For the larger size that would probably "look" very similar. 

So far up to today with dtswebb being the last one to show interest, there would be 9 of us. I know one other person that might be interested. I'll email or PM him to give him the heads up.

Thanks again everyone...John

John E. Brady
JEB's PENs
www.jebspens.com


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## mredburn

I have just got off the phone with tapco. They should have a quote for us on the tap and dies late this afternoon. I requested a 1 inch round die in the price. I also gave them .8 thread pitch. I can have it redone at 1mm If thats what the group feels is the best thread pitch. This will get us started.


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## soligen

chugbug said:


> Bruce - thanks for your input - very helpful. Seems there is always someone willing to give criticism, but never any help (in regards to the guy about the rake).


 
Quite an odd statement, seeing as Bruce is the one that mentioned the rake. Not sure if you are referring to my post instead.  I think both are simply providing info and not intending to criticize.  I see providing Info as being helpful.  Maybe you wanted more, but in my case, I simply provided what I new. I actually haven't seen criticisim in this thread (possibly with the exception of this post and your one comment)


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## Lenny

soligen said:


> chugbug said:
> 
> 
> 
> Bruce - thanks for your input - very helpful. Seems there is always someone willing to give criticism, but never any help (in regards to the guy about the rake).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quite an odd statement, seeing as Bruce is the one that mentioned the rake. Not sure if you are referring to my post instead. I think both are simply providing info and not intending to criticize. I see providing Info as being helpful. Maybe you wanted more, but in my case, I simply provided what I new. I actually haven't seen criticisim in this thread (possibly with the exception of this post and your one comment)
Click to expand...

 

Dennis, I think he was referring to a comment made long ago in an earlier thread about this size tap and die. :neutral:


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## Curly

You can put me down as a definite maybe for a set.


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## soligen

Lenny said:


> soligen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> chugbug said:
> 
> 
> 
> Bruce - thanks for your input - very helpful. Seems there is always someone willing to give criticism, but never any help (in regards to the guy about the rake).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quite an odd statement, seeing as Bruce is the one that mentioned the rake. Not sure if you are referring to my post instead. I think both are simply providing info and not intending to criticize. I see providing Info as being helpful. Maybe you wanted more, but in my case, I simply provided what I new. I actually haven't seen criticisim in this thread (possibly with the exception of this post and your one comment)
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Dennis, I think he was referring to a comment made long ago in an earlier thread about this size tap and die. :neutral:
Click to expand...

 
Ahhh - that would explain why the statement seemed odd to me.


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## drgoretex

I'd be interested to participate as well.

Ken


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## luke39uk

I would be interested and willing to pay the extra to ship to the United Kingdom.
Bryan


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## Borg_B_Borg

I'd be interested as well.

It sounds like the group buy will be for a taper tap.  I would suggest that we broaden the group buy to include both a taper tap and a bottoming tap.  If we get at least 12 people interested in both, the extra cost for a bottoming tap will be only a little over $50.  The advantages of having both a taper tap and a bottoming tap would be well worth the extra cost to me.

I'm sure the respective advantages/disadvantages of taper vs. bottoming taps have been discussed numerous times here before, but I think it's worthwhile to discuss them again.  Keep in mind that I know next to nothing when it comes to machining in general and taps and dies in particular.

Taper tap advantages:  it takes less torque to get the thread started.  Less torque means less chance of breaking the cap when tapping.  Secondly, the chances of having axial misalignment will be much less than starting the cut with a bottoming tap.

Taper tap disadvantages:  The first is that the taper threads may show through in translucent/transparent materials.  The second is that the cap may not hold its angular alignment because the partially cut taper threads will easily enlarge over time and the cap will eventually over-rotate and lose grain alignment with the pen barrel.  The leading threads on the pen barrel will also wear and contribute to angular misalignment.  Threads cut by a bottoming tap will have a much more certain stop and will be far less likely to lose grain alignment over time.  Angular misalignment would bother me about as much as axial misalignment.  If I am going to go through the trouble of making a kit-less custom pen, I want the grain alignment to last.

Basically the advantages/disadvantages of taper taps become respectively the disadvantages/advantages of bottoming taps.  If I have both tap types, I can start the tap with a taper tap and finish off with a bottoming tap and get the advantages of both without any of their disadvantages.  This is why I am willing to shell out $50 or so more for having both types of taps.

Steve


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## Texatdurango

Steve, All good points but I respectfully disagree that we need the extra bottom tap and my reasons are highlighted below in *blue*. Without getting into the technical differences and pros and cons of each type of tap in _general applications_, I am relying solely on my experiences using these taps to cut threads in the caps of pens mostly plastic or ebonite. Having made well over 100 pens using the "original" 12mm multi-start_* bottom (or plug) tap*_ then recently, half a dozen pens using the "new" 12mm multi-start *taper tap,* I offer the following thoughts.



Borg_B_Borg said:


> I'd be interested as well.
> 
> It sounds like the group buy will be for a taper tap. I would suggest that we broaden the group buy to include both a taper tap and a bottoming tap. If we get at least 12 people interested in both, the extra cost for a bottoming tap will be only a little over $50. The advantages of having both a taper tap and a bottoming tap would be well worth the extra cost to me.
> 
> I definately see an advantage to using the taper tap but in regards to cutting threads in the cap only, see absolutely no advantage of a bottom tap.
> 
> I'm sure the respective advantages/disadvantages of taper vs. bottoming taps have been discussed numerous times here before, but I think it's worthwhile to discuss them again. Keep in mind that I know next to nothing when it comes to machining in general and taps and dies in particular.
> 
> Same here so I am relying on my hands-on experiences.
> 
> Taper tap advantages: it takes less torque to get the thread started. Less torque means less chance of breaking the cap when tapping. Secondly, the chances of having axial misalignment will be much less than starting the cut with a bottoming tap.
> 
> I totally agree, the difference in starting the two taps mentioned above is day light and dark! With the tap held securely in the tailstock and aligned with the headstock, I don't see the chances of having axial misalignment a concern at all.
> 
> Taper tap disadvantages: The first is that the taper threads may show through in translucent/transparent materials. The second is that the cap may not hold its angular alignment because the partially cut taper threads will easily enlarge over time and the cap will eventually over-rotate and lose grain alignment with the pen barrel. The leading threads on the pen barrel will also wear and contribute to angular misalignment. Threads cut by a bottoming tap will have a much more certain stop and will be far less likely to lose grain alignment over time. Angular misalignment would bother me about as much as axial misalignment. If I am going to go through the trouble of making a kit-less custom pen, I want the grain alignment to last.
> 
> True, depending on the material used, the threads will show but the full depth threads will show a lot more than the faint partial threads so if one decides to use translucement/transparent material those are the downsides and using a bottom tap wouldn't change any of that.
> 
> I don't see the partially cut threads enlarging at all since the lower threads will never even touch them. In my opinion it is poor design to rely on the cap threads to stop the lower body from advancing or tightening into the cap. Instead, I rely on a shoulder inside the cap as a positive stop to the progress of the lower body. This way the lower threads never enter the tapering threads in the cap so there is nothing to wear out.
> 
> Basically the advantages/disadvantages of taper taps become respectively the disadvantages/advantages of bottoming taps. If I have both tap types, I can start the tap with a taper tap and finish off with a bottoming tap and get the advantages of both without any of their disadvantages. This is why I am willing to shell out $50 or so more for having both types of taps.
> 
> I still fail to see why switching to a bottom tap would be of any benefit.
> 
> Steve


 
This is posted in hopes of showing a differing view only not to start a debate over who is right or wrong!  I personally would never use a bottoming tap in cutting threads in a pen cap so thought I'd share my reasons.


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## chugbug

First, I apologize if my earlier comment offended anyone here. My comment (made to Bruce) was not directed toward Bruce or anyone here. Nor was it intended to offend anyone here. I made the comment based on what I _thought_ I read. Turns out I misread what Bruce said: 





> One person in the buy suggested the rake angle was not optimal for plastic. I don't know what it should be,...


 I took it as the same person that criticized the incorrect rake (someone else NOT Bruce) also didn't make any suggestions as to what it should be-- and Bruce was pointing that out (that interpretation is what my comment was referencing: agreeing that it wasn't helpful for someone criticizing something that was done but not offering a recommendation). Again, I wasn't criticizing any recommendations anyone has made here. But even so, in retrospect, I should have left it slide and not comment. My apologies to you Bruce if you thought it was directed toward you, as it wasn't intended that way or anyone else that took offense.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------​ 
Mike / Pitch - Other than the difference in the TPI that I pointed out, I don't know how else the difference would equate on the larger size. If the difference between the two pitch sizes is only the space between the threads (TPI), if the 0.8 works OK on the smaller threads, it would work OK on the larger threads as well?

Steve's (Borg B Borg) recommendation on the bottoming tap - Nice assessment. Since this tap is being used for the cap, the bottoming tap would be a nice addition to have - along with the taper tap. But as he said, I don't think I would only want to buy just the bottoming tap if I had to choose. I would still need the taper tap for starting and alignment.

How about you guys? Would the additional cost added for the bottoming tap be a deal breaker for you?

Mike - I don't know how the costs would work out - maybe it could be assessed separately, but if it's not that much of an impact, would everyone have to pay for the additional tap if they don't want it for some reason? Assuming there would be more that want it than don't want it (I.E. more than 12 sign up, but only 12 want the additional tap).

Thanks to everyone interested. So far, by my count, it is now over 12 (didn't want to say 13).

Thanks...John


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## rsjimenez

I would also be interested in a set.


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## Timebandit

I am no expert on taps or dies but am having great luck with jut the one tap and I dont see the need for the additional tap and price increase. I have already bought two sets of the new triple start tap and die so that i had a spare, since these group buys might not happen for a long time. I would like to get in on this one but cannot justify the extra money(unless its only a few dollars) for an extra tap that i wont use.

Just my thoughts 
Justin


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## mredburn

The extra tap would only need quantity 12 to  make the price break that is needed to make them affordable for the most part. They will make oneoffs at a couple hundred a tap. They have price breaks at smaller amounts but 12 is the best starting point. For example the total cost of  5 taps will cost you as much as 12 taps total.


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## Texatdurango

chugbug said:


> .....Since this tap is being used for the cap, the bottoming tap would be a nice addition to have - along with the taper tap. .....
> 
> How about you guys? Would the additional cost added for the bottoming tap be a deal breaker for you?


 
"*the bottoming tap would be a nice addition to have "*
** 
I still don't see the need.  I would like someone to give me one reason to buy this tap in regards to threading a pen cap other than looking nice in a plastic box on the shelf.

Personally it's not the extra expense, it's just that based on my past experience with these multi-start sets making my own pens, this is a tap that I would likely never use so my answer would be No interest.


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## Timebandit

Texatdurango said:


> chugbug said:
> 
> 
> 
> .....Since this tap is being used for the cap, the bottoming tap would be a nice addition to have - along with the taper tap. .....
> 
> How about you guys? Would the additional cost added for the bottoming tap be a deal breaker for you?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "*the bottoming tap would be a nice addition to have "*
> 
> I still don't see the need.  I would like someone to give me one reason to buy this tap in regards to threading a pen cap other than looking nice in a plastic box on the shelf.
> 
> Personally it's not the extra expense, it's just that based on my past experience with these multi-start sets making my own pens, this is a tap that I would likely never use so my answer would be No interest.
Click to expand...


I agree. I have made about a dozen pens with the set i just bought and i cant figure out how the threads are going to get cut deeper. As Tex has said he cuts a shoulder to stop the rotation. I just use the shoulder of the body of the pen. When you screw the two together the lower body shoulder where the threads are cut hits on the cap section and stops the rotation of the cap. It cant go in any further, much less cut the threads deeper. All it will do is strip out your threads. I dint think the threads would even be strong enough to cut threads in the material.

Unless you plan on using this tap for other purposes(which is fine) but i just cant see needing it to make pen caps, i would like to not get the extra tap.

Justin


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## mredburn

I just got off the phone with tapco. they are updating the quote and I should have it this afternoon. They had an incorrect email address. I have requested an additional price quote on the extra tap. IF we order 1 taper and 1 bottom tap as a set they qualify for a combined discount on the price list. 12 pairs =the 24 count price level. IF we order 20 taper and 12 bottom taps they are priced at seperate levels. The 20 taper will be one price level and th12 bottom will be another.


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## mredburn

Price quote is in.

taps  12-24......$55.66
dies   12+.........$58.80.......1 inch size
dies   12+.........$60.20.......1 1/2 size

The 1 inch dies are not standard for this size and are not guaranteed against breaking. They recommend the 1 1/2. They however dont know what we will be using them on or how we will be using them. 

That puts the price of the  set at $114.46 plus shipping plus reshiping plus paypal. Add $11.00 roughly for that and you bring the total for the set to     $125.50

The bottom tap would add $58.00 to those who wanted it if 12 are reached. 
if only 3-5 want bottoming taps they will run an extra $100.00 each. 6-9 $70.00 each

MIke


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## Timebandit

OK good. As long as the bottoming tap is optional im in. I just dont see the need and the extra $58-100 would put me out of this deal.


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## Curly

*Another option.*

With respect to the bottoming tap. 

If there are only a few that feel the need to get one they could order 2 of the taper taps and 1 die. When they receive their taps, 1 can be shortened (on the grinder) to remove the taper to make it into a bottoming tap. The only difference in the end would be a slightly shorter bottoming tap.

The order to tapco would have more taps than dies, which shouldn't be an issue, and might be a bit quicker to fulfil since they don't need to make the different taps.


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## turbowagon

What do you guys think about the 1" die versus 1 1/2" die?  I'm really happy with my 1" die holder and don't feel like having to buy another one.


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## Timebandit

turbowagon said:


> What do you guys think about the 1" die versus 1 1/2" die?  I'm really happy with my 1" die holder and don't feel like having to buy another one.



Personally i think the 1" should be fine. We are taping acrylics and maybe occasionally metal. I think Tapco is basing there recommendation on the intended use of the taps and dies which is for metal taping.

Anyone else?


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## Texatdurango

turbowagon said:


> What do you guys think about the 1" die versus 1 1/2" die? I'm really happy with my 1" die holder and don't feel like having to buy another one.


 
I'm fine with the 1" dia, die!  I'll be cutting into plastics and hard rubber not metal!


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## mredburn

Agreed,  ! inch should be fine, they are just covering their bases since they have no idea what we will use them for. MIght want to make a triple lead set of lugnuts and studs for your car.  Faster Tire changes that way.


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## Texatdurango

In case anyone is counting........

I'm a definate "IN" for the ballpark figure of $125 for:

1ea taper tap 
1 ea die (1" diameter)

My personal preference for the thread pitch would be the .8mm.  With the triple start threads combined with the 14mm diameter, I think the 1mm pitch would make the threads look pretty aggressive _BUT_...... I was wrong back on April 18, 1992 and am due to be wrong again anytime soon!


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## mredburn

Sorry I forgot. this quote is for the .8 pitch thread I haventt got one for the 1mm pitch. I think the .8 will be all we need. Chime in if you have other thoughts.


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## mredburn

I have just cleared it with Monty so this group buy is official. I would like to let people have 3 weeks for sign up. Then place the order.

Lets cut it off July 24th thats a Sunday and I will order them Monday the 25th.
Let me know if thats a problem.


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## TomW

MIke,

I'm in for one tap and one die.

Tom


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## Timebandit

Im in for 1 tap and 1 die

Thanks


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## rstought

I'm in for 1 tap and 1 die.

Thanks in advance!


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## dtswebb

Mike -

I'll go in for one tap and one die.

Thank you.

Matthew


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## mredburn

I am going to open an official  sign up thread for this group buy so there is no confusion.


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## mredburn

I have started the sign up thread.. IF you have posted an interest but not a commitment I have NOT include your name. Please check to make sure I have you on the list. I will do the outside the Us shipping it usually runs a couple dollars more for regular mail. Priority mail 11-12 dollars more. 

Mike


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## Borg_B_Borg

You make an excellent point about using a shoulder to stop the rotation.  

However I still think using a bottoming tap will eliminate most of the faint partial threads in translucent/transparent materials.

Steve





Texatdurango said:


> True, depending on the material used, the threads will show but the full depth threads will show a lot more than the faint partial threads so if one decides to use translucement/transparent material those are the downsides and using a bottom tap wouldn't change any of that.
> 
> I don't see the partially cut threads enlarging at all since the lower threads will never even touch them. In my opinion it is poor design to rely on the cap threads to stop the lower body from advancing or tightening into the cap. Instead, I rely on a shoulder inside the cap as a positive stop to the progress of the lower body. This way the lower threads never enter the tapering threads in the cap so there is nothing to wear out.
> 
> I still fail to see why switching to a bottom tap would be of any benefit.


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## Borg_B_Borg

I think pitch in the 0.7 to 0.8 mm range is fine.

I wonder whether it's possible to have the threads less deep.  Basically with shallower threads, we can make the cap walls thinner and the whole pen will be lighter.  I am looking at some of my name brand fountain pens and they all have rather shallow threads and thin cap walls.  

Steve





mredburn said:


> Sorry I forgot. this quote is for the .8 pitch thread I haventt got one for the 1mm pitch. I think the .8 will be all we need. Chime in if you have other thoughts.


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## mredburn

I use the m.75 pitch  threads on the pieces I make. I have some pieces that the wall thickness is 1mm or less, threaded on both sides. m8.4x.75 o/d m7.4 x .5 i/d and 1 thats m10x.5 o/d and m8.4x.75 i/d. The .75 works well for me in those ranges. The .8 pitch would be a little rough in those applications but for the caps it works well.


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## Texatdurango

Since the diameter of the tap is fixed, you can make shallower threads by using a slightly larger bit when drilling the initial hole or once the threads are cut you can remove several thousandths of thread by using a boring bar or any internal cutter.

Like Mike, I have made some caps with wall thickness so thin the cap will easily flex and the threads are VERY shallow but still engage well.  And that's one thing I absolutely love about making my blanks from Alumilite, the material is perfect for thinwall applications with shallow threads.  I don't know if this will work but if you look at my photo album, you will see some very thin wall pens..... http://www.penturners.org/photos/index.php?n=18858

Just wait 'till you get the tap and die, you'll have a lot of fun trying different shapes and sizes.



Borg_B_Borg said:


> ....... I wonder whether it's possible to have the threads less deep. Basically with shallower threads, we can make the cap walls thinner and the whole pen will be lighter. I am looking at some of my name brand fountain pens and they all have rather shallow threads and thin cap walls.
> 
> Steve


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## chugbug

Hi Mike, Been away for a few days, and just dropped in for a quck check, so didn't read all the posts. But from the first couple looks like were good to go except for the bottoming tap. Like the suggestion for making one out of the taper, so will probably try that route. So...

I'm in for: 1- set + add'l taper tap (if can get a second tap).

I guess I'm ok with the die size if everyone else wants the smaller size. I think the larger (1 1/2" size) would hold up better with less stress and torque (even on the acrylic). But if I'm out voted, it's OK as long as it will hold up. I have both sizes so I'm not looking at it as an additional cost for a new holder (although I will probably buy a dedicated holder for it anyway).

Thanks again for taking charge and the quick turnaround on the prices.

John

John E. Brady
JEB's PENs
www.jebspens.com


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## Borg_B_Borg

Like John, I also prefer a 1-1/2" die size, especially since I already have a holder in that size.   But I will bow to the wishes of the majority.

Steve


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## Timebandit

I only have a 1" die holder and like the extra bottoming tap putting me out of this deal, the extra tooling needed for the larger die would put me out of this deal as well. All i need is the tap an die, i have everything else. If you decide to go with the 1 1/2 die please excluded me from this buy. I do not think that enough extra torgue would be exerted on this die by cutting acrylics to warrant a larger die diameter.


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## 043Turning

IS ther a list of the threads you guys are looking at, as I would be interested - especially if someone would like to post it to AUSTRALIA 

PLease Count Me IN ~~~


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## BigShed

Maybe I am the only one that is getting increasingly confused here?

In any case, I originally indicated that I was interested in a 14mm  triple start tap and die set, having bought a 12mm triple start  previously (first lot) and being happy with it.

However, this set is becoming so confusing with so many options (first tap and die set designed by a committee?:smile-big that I have firmly planted myself on the fence until I can see where this is going.

I do know that I would be reluctant to go for a 1 1/2 inch die as I  would have to buy a new (or make) a new MT2 die holder for that.


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## mredburn

The set that is being offered is with the one inch die. the other choices are simply preferences as an option in case there is enough interest to order some of that option. Ie. the larger dies, the bottoming tap. Think of it as having color choices the main choices are black and white but there may be enough people that want blue and red. So we may order some blue and red.

The mailing to Australia is about $2.00 more for regular post about $8.00 more for priority.

The sign up thread is under the group buy forum.


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## Texatdurango

BigShed said:


> Maybe I am the only one that is getting increasingly confused here?
> 
> In any case, I originally indicated that I was interested in a 14mm triple start tap and die set, having bought a 12mm triple start previously (first lot) and being happy with it.
> 
> However, this set is becoming so confusing with so many options (first tap and die set designed by a committee?:smile-big that I have firmly planted myself on the fence until I can see where this is going.
> 
> I do know that I would be reluctant to go for a 1 1/2 inch die *as I would have to buy a new (or make) a new MT2 die holder for that*.


 
I was on the same fence when it came to the 1" or 1 1/2" die but today decided to just make me an adapter for my existing 1" die holder.  Here are some photos of it and if you happen to have the same or similar holder, this might give you some ideas........ http://www.penturners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=82773


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## BigShed

Good thinking George, I have the same die holder from the same source (the world is becoming an increasingly smaller place!).

I was originally going to make a whole new die holder, ie the whole front part including the knurled bit. No biggie, but your idea shows more lateral thinking.

One could also make you adapter to fit in to the 1" die holder and use the existing grub screws to hold it in.

Well done and thank you for sharing your work and ideas, much appreciated.


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## Texatdurango

BigShed said:


> Good thinking George, I have the same die holder from the same source (the world is becoming an increasingly smaller place!).
> 
> I was originally going to make a whole new die holder, ie the whole front part including the knurled bit. No biggie, but your idea shows more lateral thinking.
> 
> *One could also make you adapter to fit in to the 1" die holder and use the existing grub screws to hold it in.*
> 
> Well done and thank you for sharing your work and ideas, much appreciated.


 
Now why didn't I think of that!  Would have saved some time drilling and tapping the adapter.  Oh well, at least it looks cool!


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## BigShed

Well George your tool making started me thinking, always a life threatening exercise:biggrin:

I remembered I had actually bought a 1 1/2" die, a M14x1.5, also intended for penmaking (kitless).

So I decided to have a look at that one to see how the 1 1/2" looked size wise.










I must say I was surprised at the size of the thing and compared it to the 1" M12x0.8 triple start die I bought recently.






Here is another comparison shot






Just to put these sizes in perspective, the amount of "meat" between the clearance holes on the 1 1/2" die is 5.5mm, on the 1" die it is 2.45mm. As the 1" die is a M12 size, the amount of meat on a 1" M14 die would reduce by at least 1mm to no more than 1.45mm.

Hope this will help some people to decide whether to go for a 1" or a 1 1/2" die.


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## Texatdurango

Fred, Interesting photos, thanks for taking the time to shoot then post them.  Boy those 1.5 pitch threads look mean!


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## Texatdurango

I need some advice, could someone please help me out?  

As I stated earlier in the thread, I have made many many pens using the smaller 12m multi-start taps and I see no reason whatsoever for the bottom tap in addition to the taper tap _*BUT......*_ I could have been overlooking something all this time and I would like to know what I have been missing or overlooking now before we order these so........ To those ordering the bottom taps, can someone please give me some examples where you plan on using the bottom tap instead of the taper tap?

I'm assuming you will be using these only for cutting threads in the pen cap so am lost for an answer.

Thanks


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## BigShed

Thanks George for asking that question, I have been racking my brain as well, but didn't want to show my ignorance.


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## Curly

*My imagined reason.*

I think I want it because when you have a translucent or transparent material you will be able to see the threads inside. If you want to have 5 threads, for instance, engaged by the barrel that screws into the cap, there will be the 5 full threads plus several more fading away from the taper in the cap. If you want a crisp end to the threads in the cap you need the bottoming tap so the threads end at one place. Now if you always make pens of material you can't see through, or don't mind a little fade out, then you wouldn't have a need for the bottoming tap.

The only other way to stop the threads crisply would be to take more material from inside the cap past the threads with a boring bar in a metal lathe for a closed end cap or drill from the other side and plug the end with a finial.


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## Texatdurango

Curly said:


> ......I think I want it because when you have a translucent or transparent material you will be able to see the threads inside. .......


 
Thank you for the reply Pete, this is the only reason that I have seen so far. I do not want to counter every reason brought up but I would like to toss this out for your consideration......

I realize that in a clear or translucent situation you will see the tapering "partial threads" *BUT* you will also see the engaged threads as well. Just because part of the threads have the lower pen body screwed into them doesn't mean they can't be seen.

To show what I am talking about, below is a demo pen I made a couple years ago from clear acrylic. You can see all of the cap threads whether or not they have the lower body screwed into them or not. In my mind seeing "half" the threads isn't any better or worse than seeing all of the threads and using a bottom tap will still allow one to see the threads in a translucent cap.

Another thought...... In going to pen shows and seeing vintage pens, some nearly 80 years old now, there are many translucent pens out there and you can see the threads in the cap and some of these models are highly sought after so I have a suspicion that seeing the threads is not considered a flaw and is considered OK.

Not trying to convince anyone one way or another how to make their pens, I'm just trying to understand the need and if that's the only reason, I'm not sold. 

While we're discussing what can and can't be seen, here is another thing folks need to consider when using lighter material. Even opaque or less translucent material still presents a problem. In the second photo below is a mockup made from delrin, and while you can't easily see the threads you can still see where the threads end and the nib section begins since the engaged threads are showing "twice the white" which abruptly ends where the black section begins then the light area of the gold nib on the top. In a completed pen this would go dark again at the top as the finial is glued or screwed in.

Here are the two photos showing the threads and the light and dark situation mentioned.......


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## BigShed

Good explanation there George.

IMHO a bottoming tap is only useful for tapping to the bottom of blind holes and I can't see any other reason for using one, particularly in the sort of pen making that most of us do.


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## Borg_B_Borg

It seems most folks who order a bottoming tap do so because they want to see as few threads as possible in those somewhat rare situations where the threads will show.

And, here is another reason for the fountain pen afficionados.  Someday you may have the urge to make a safety pen and you will find a bottoming tap handy.

Steve


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## Texatdurango

Borg_B_Borg said:


> It seems most folks who order a bottoming tap do so because they want to see as few threads as possible in those somewhat rare situations where the threads will show.
> 
> And, here is another reason for the fountain pen afficionados. Someday you may have the urge to make a safety pen and you will find a bottoming tap handy.
> 
> Steve


 
What is a safety pen and how will the bottom tap come in handy?


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## Borg_B_Borg

George:

Safety pens were among the first reservoir pen designs.  It's a type of eyedropper pen.  They were invented by, I believe, Waterman around the turn of the 20th century.  It has a retractable nib.  To use it, the nib has to be extended by a screwing action and to store it, the nib has to be fully retracted again.  It's cumbersome to use, but that was the state of the art back then.  The thread is found at very near the bottom of the cap and at the end of the pen barrrel.  There is a little rubber or cork piece inside the the bottom of the cap to provide a seal from leaking ink.

To be clear, one would be unlikely to make the inside thread of a safety pen using a 14mm tap and die set.  Probably something in the 10 mm range would work better.

Steve


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## Borg_B_Borg

Attached is a picture of a safety pen I bought on eBay a few years ago.  The last couple of pictures show the internal corkscrew mechanism.  It would be fun to make one with the 14mm tap and die set we have.  You may even possibly be able to do it without using a bottoming tap.  I think a 14mm diameter would be big for sure, but probably not excessively so.  It will just make it more comfortable to grip. You can fit a big nib in a 14mm diameter barrel.

Steve


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## chugbug

STEVE said: "I think a 14mm diameter would be big for sure"

Steve, I posted one of my other pens, but here is one I recently finished that I used a similar sized threads on. The M14 set in the group buy that is currently running will allow me to add multi-start threads to these.

The only REAL difference in the pens (this vs a pen using an M12 threads) ---other than the slightly oversized cap that is a style choice-- is that it doesn't have the step down from the barrel to the threads that you would have on smaller threads.

Other options that a larger threads offers is being able to play with the nib holder styles (if you make your own). The smaller M12 threads keeps the nib holder size down pretty small and thus limits the style options. The larger threads opens up the cap diameter so you can go a little larger on the nib holder and play around with different style options.

As for the bottoming tap, attached is another pen (confetti) where the threads show through in some areas where the acrylic is clear (see the area around the bottom end of the clip). The bottoming tap would help to keep the number of threads in the cap to a minimum rather than having it twice as deep/long than would be otherwise necessary due to the taper. That (confetti) pen by the way has the M12 threads.

All in how you use them...John

*Pen Specs:*
*Size / Length:*
*Capped:* 6"
*Uncapped:* 5 3/8"
*Nib:* #6 
*Clip:* 1 1/2"
*Size / Dia:*
*Barrel:* .59"
*Cap:* .65" (not including band).

John E. Brady
JEB's PENs
http://www.jebspens.com


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## Borg_B_Borg

John:

My earlier comment on 14mm being somewhat big was only in reference to the safety pen style, where the thread is located at the very end of the section.  Basically the section would be from 12mm to 14mm.  Personally I find a bigger section is more pleasant to grip than a smaller section.  And, as I stated before, having a 14mm thread opens up the possibility of using bigger nibs.

That "cream and caramel" pen is gorgeous.  You did an excellent job getting the band on and polishing it to perfection.

We are very close to getting the price break for 12 bottoming taps.  We just need to convince George to join in.  ;-)

Steve


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## Texatdurango

Borg_B_Borg said:


> .........We are very close to getting the price break for 12 bottoming taps. We just need to convince George to join in. ;-)
> 
> Steve


 
Assuming I'm the George you're referring to....... Fat chance of that happening! :biggrin:

Actually I have nothing against the bottom taps, they serve their purpose* BUT* for approx $60 more, I still haven't seen the need in the pens I make and the tap would likely sit on a shelf for a long time unused.  Us folks on fixed incomes have to watch our dollars pretty closely!


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