# Everyone please read this!



## karlkuehn (Jan 14, 2008)

Okay, here I go again...not venting so much this time as attempting to provide a little enlightenment on the importance of interpersonal communication, no matter what the vehicle of that communication is. Please understand that I get a little wordy, and if you don't have time to read through this essay, I won't hold it against you. I try to make my thoughts and opinions perfectly clear, and since I barely have time to eat or sleep, I don't spend a lot of time editing my posts down for minimal length/optimal affect type of writing. I enjoy writing, especially when it's something that I care a good deal about, unfortunately most of my best stuff gets published in the first rough draft. Bear with me, or not, your call.  I'll try to put enough interesting and humorous content in there to at least make it a great way to kill a half hour. I'm 'Jokeboy', remember? heh

At work today, while I was mindlessly shooting nails and filtering a few pounds of wood/drywall dust through my lungs (which is actually good, it gives all the cigar smoke and tar something to cling to so I can hack the lot of it out at the end of the day), I spent a lot of time today hashing over the threads from this weekend (mine included), pondering the differences in opinion, and I've got some resulting thoughts that I'd like to share.

Regarding the 'tussle in the sandbox'/'car wreck'/-whatever analogy you'd like to apply- over the weekend, I'd really like to rebut Ed's response, as I think he gave a good amount of information that, while well-worded, well-thought-out and heartfelt, it was also false regarding the true impact of  'Internet conversation', and how it is perceived and received by many people. Since he requested that only positive comments were welcome on his post, I decided to start my own thread, where I'll _also_ quote _and_ utilize the whole 'freedom of speech' thing, and abide by it as well. What?! Aren't I entitled to a cheap shot, too? [] 

On a side-note (I'm really good at these side-note things, and most of you that read my stuff on a regular basis know that there's a good chance that we'll end up discussing/arguing about why it is that natural, not imitation vanilla is much better to bake with when you use real butter as opposed to saffron or peanut oil; some people _use_ side-notes, I actually _exist_ in them), I actually Googled 'rebutt' and 'rebut'; both search results handed me dozens of examples, but (there is is again, the 'b'-word) I went with Thesaurus.com's spelling, and even though a couple of the 'if they'll pay us, we'll give you a list of places selling [insert any darned thing here]' stupid shopping sites that tried to sell me my own personal 'rebut' through Amazon, I think I picked the right spelling of the word itself. Cav, insight?  [okay, end tangent]

Shoot! Another sidenote (see, I told you, it's where I live...), Ed, please don't hold any of this against me. I love reading your posts, and respect you very much. I've really enjoyed the emails that we've shared outside the forum, and I hope that this won't change our relationship more than one friend disagreeing with another friend. Heck, while I'm at it, Cav, as much as I poke fun at you, please understand that I'm a spelling and grammar freak myself, I'm just not good enough at it to feel like I can correct anyone when, most of the time, I've got more green and red squigglies in my posts than the original post that I'm correcting on. There, I've sufficiently given the two of them equal opportunities to turbo-boost their post-counts, giving me the verbal thrashing that I deserve. The race goes on! [end tangent #2 â€“ you see what I'm saying about the rough draft? heh]

Due to the 'newness' (siddown, Cav!) of the Internet, communication styles have seen a hyper-growth spurt because one _can_ essentially hide behind their keyboards and monitors and be whomever or whatever they wish to be, without risk of personal, and ultimately public reverberations (Please see and take note of the number of, â€œfifty-eight year-old [insert podunk town name] man pretends to be nineteen year-old hunk in chatroom, apprehended Sunday by FBI stingâ€). Unfortunately, the amount of time that people spend together in these chatrooms (I'm sorry, 'forums'; God forbid I use the 'C' word and people start thinking that we're akin to a bunch of bionic-thumbed teenagers who spend more of their lives texting than actually talking) enables people to get emotionally attached to those that they spend time with online.

Enter my rebut (man, that word just bugs me...it's like â€œwait, my original 'but' wasn't good enough so here's my new one?â€ I wish I could do that with my other 'but'. Too many french fries? Time to rebut! Sign me up! []) to the 'Car crash' analogy. 

Side-note-o-rama, I didn't come up with any good comparisons to the 'sand box' thing; I just didn't want to taint my wonderful sandbox memories, apparently. *Karl, in kindergarten* - "Hey guys, look! If we all save up our chocolate milk and pour it in here, we can make sand pens! *proudly holds up blob of sand*...

Picture this: In Ed's analogy, you're driving down the road and you see a car wreck. The people in front of you slow down, the people behind you slow down, _you_ slow down, all of you curious about what's going on over on the other side of the freeway. Some people comment, other people ignore, impatient to move on and get past it, eager to be on their way home. Some of us might comment on the damage that was done to a certain type of vehicle, some of us might say a prayer for those invloved, some rare people will pull over and volunteer to help, but most of us are just glad to get by the delay and move on with our lives.

Now, imagine: When the line of cars finally reaches the bottle neck of those other people, you take a chance and glance over to see what's going on, and you realize that one of the cars involved is just like your spouse's (since we're using marriage as a comparison), and then after further investigation, you realize with horror that it _IS YOUR SPOUSE'S!!!_

Are you going to continue to drive on, just trying to get past the idiots and get home? Duh, of course not! You're going to bury the nose of your car in the swampy median and jump out with your hair on fire.

See, that isn't 'someone else' in that other lane, that's your family! None of us is just going to drive by and say, â€œGolly, I wish they'd have driven a little more carefullyâ€, or, â€œI'm too busy right now, I just don't have time to helpâ€, or, â€œthe firemen have it under control, just let them do their jobsâ€...NO! You're going to lose your mind, pushing firemen and cops out of the way to get to the person you care about.

Now, I'm not saying that I love any of you more than I love my wife, but most of you could count on me to at least bury my truck in the mud, hop out and look ruggedly heroic, and then you'd have to help me pay for the tow-truck to get me out of the gunk, since I'm chronically broke...

And aside from Ron in Drums PA (Ron Sardo â€“ see, we all have real names worth learning and knowing), I've never met any of you, but if we all were able to have a big arrow that points to our cars that said, â€œstevers drives hereâ€, or â€œProud_Poppa_of_2 on boardâ€, I'd look for all of you, all the time! 

I've only spent months on this forum getting to know you, and know you I do. You _are_ my friends, you _are_ my family! Every day when I get home, I look forward to my time on the computer when I can see who's created what, who needs prayer, who's posted something funny, who's continued to be a dork (that'd me me..."karlkuehn types here" â€“ arrow flashing).

You can't tell me that if I were to call any of you on the phone and call you a filthy piece of distended rectum (free stinkwood blanks to anyone who can tell me where that quote is from) right to your face, you wouldn't be offended; I couldn't write you a letter and tell you that you're stupid and your opinions are crap without you getting upset; I darned sure couldn't show up at your car wreck and tell you you deserved it, or you had it coming.

And I only know you guys through the faceless, emotionally detached, hide behind the keyboard Internet forum that we're all a part of. I also know who's suffering because they lost a loved one, who's dealing with 'outside' financial pressures on such a scale that they have to sell off the wood shop that they love just to pay bills, who's feeling down because they miss the family they are separated from, and who's up against a wall because they can't figure out whether it's CA then BLO, or BLO then CA, and what kind of paper towels to we use, anyways!?

All of those things that I learn about you, I learn them here on the net, and thank God that most days it's only silly stuff like, â€œskew or gouge? Shellawax or Mylands? Rollerball or fountain?â€ type of stuff, and yet still I care enough to give advice, offer condolences, provide reasources, or apologize in advance for spelling errors. (I'm sorry Cav, did my best!)

So you can't tell me that IAP is an anonymous communication source where I can learn how to communicate without feelings, and as such, ALL of us have a responsibility to treat each other with respect.

I darned sure wouldn't stand up in church and start or continue a fight with my wife, and I'd be hard-pressed to go at it in front of my closest friends, and that's what I consider each of you, my  closest friends.

As far as my outburst on the 'Cav' thread, while I do regret a couple of the words I used, I do not regret anything that I said there.

I received many emails from people thought that what I said made great sense, and in an effort to not 'stir the pot', they chose to PM/email me instead, and for that I'm grateful.

Here are some of the emails:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Karl -

I am disappointed that your January 13 post to the "Cav" thread in the "Casual Conversation" forum received no public acknowledgement.  It was intelligent, cogent, heartfelt and, in my opinion, balls on accurate.

I write privately because I believe it would be counter-productive to enter the fray publicly, especially now that it seems to have calmed down somewhat.  I think it important, though, that you be aware of your words' impact and that they have not been lost on all readers.  I appreciate very much your putting yourself out there as much as I regret the fact that your feelings seemed to have gone straight over the heads of your audience.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Great post Karl! I wanted to PM you because I hope your post is the last one on that thread...[remainder deleted for anonymity]
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Karl,About your post on the "cav" thread.
You dun good!  My sentiments exactly (well, ok not exactly...I would have to delete a word or two ) but it was well said.  I did not want to respond online because I didn't want to add fuel to the fire unnecessarily.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Anyhow, what I'm trying to say is don't fall into the trap of the idea that posting your thoughts and opinions only on the forums allows you to change who you really are. All of us are members here, and by running head-on into someone, you do great damage, but on the flip side, burying your keyboard/car into the median to assist and protect your family is not a bad thing.  

That's my $2.57.


----------



## Proud_Poppa_of_2 (Jan 14, 2008)

I think I've been touched by the caring and kindnesses IAP members have extended to one another more often than I have been disappointed by the pettiness and discord.  Yet, the latter leave their indelible mark.  It is unreasonable to expect to be free always from such unpleasantness, but I hope the recent past will cause us to pause before we hit the "Submit Reply" button, giving us the opportunity to ensure our comments our helpful and that they further the IAP mission.


----------



## OKLAHOMAN (Jan 14, 2008)

Wow!!!!!War & Peace was only just slighty longer[}].


----------



## karlkuehn (Jan 14, 2008)

> _Originally posted by OKLAHOMAN_
> 
> Wow!!!!!War & Peace was only just slighty longer[}].



Yeah, but mine don't come in paperback!

Geez, "Everyone please read this!"...did I actually call it that?!

I gotta change that...gah...


----------



## karlkuehn (Jan 14, 2008)

Bloody hell.

"Topics in this forum cannot be edited after 30 minutes.
Contact Forum Administrator or Moderator for more information."

Okay then! We'll live with like it is! Anyone wanna exchange names for about a month?! [xx(]


----------



## karlkuehn (Jan 14, 2008)

RonSchmitt just won the free stinkwood blanks, BTW. []


----------



## wdcav1952 (Jan 14, 2008)

Geez, Karl, I fell asleep twice trying to read your post!! [}]  I think you made sense, though.  My neck hurts!!


----------



## gketell (Jan 14, 2008)

When you come up with the Executive Summary version sans all the side notes, let me know.  Or, highlight the important parts in your favorite color (side note: not white) so we can get to the meat of the subject.  Ooooo better yet, highlight all the side note stuff in white so your important parts stand out for the attention they deserve.  

GK


----------



## maxwell_smart007 (Jan 14, 2008)

I tried reading it!  I really did!  

Ok, I tried to try!  

I read some of it!


----------



## 7miles (Jan 14, 2008)

Very well said.....Thank you


----------



## DocStram (Jan 14, 2008)

As my English professor once said:

*"Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation!*

translation: avoid ambiguity, adopt clarity


----------



## Malainse (Jan 14, 2008)

Back under my chair...


----------



## mdburn_em (Jan 14, 2008)

Sorry, couldn't get through it.


----------



## TellicoTurning (Jan 15, 2008)

Okay, I'm just a backwoods mountain boy... I think I must have missed something back there... Karl, you made a lot of sense, but don't what you're talking about... guess I missed the feud - again


----------



## Marc Phillips (Jan 15, 2008)

Sorry.... waaayyyy too long for me... [)]


----------



## smoky10 (Jan 15, 2008)

When will the condensed version come out?


----------



## leehljp (Jan 15, 2008)

Are we having a revival? Two other posts like this!  

I don't usually read the casual conversation forum but it is starting to get good!


----------



## Chasper (Jan 15, 2008)

I was traveling over the weekend and missed the fray, it would have been fun to read it as it was appearing, but as a historical document it is less interesting.  Your auto accident/spouse/friend anology extension is spot on.  
As a stickler for grammar and spelling (sometimes a failure at same, I spelled vise as vice last week; how is that for side bar?) the subject resonates but does not dominate my thinking. 
Bottom line?  Community is community, virtual or real.  We all need a little help form our friends, and we all need a few friends.  You said it well, but a bit long.
Thankssss


----------



## Ron in Drums PA (Jan 15, 2008)

> _Originally posted by karlkuehn_
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hey Karl, are we going to be tested on this?

At least I can buy Cliff Notes for _War and Peace. _

Most people know my name, I never hid from anybody. You see Karl, I was on the internet long before Al Gore invented it. Back then there was only one Ron... me. As more Rons (I assure you, no pun intended) came onto the internet, I needed a way to differentiate myself from the other Rons. So Ron in Drums PA became my handle. Luckily I'm the only Ron in my little town so there hasn't been a need to change my handle... yet.




[8D]


----------



## fernhills (Jan 15, 2008)

Hmmmmmm,,,,OHHHHHHHHHHHHH... Carl


----------



## NavyDiver (Jan 15, 2008)

Wow - stream of consciousness posting. I have a friend that lives in "sidebars", but he is an amateur compared to you. I slogged my way thru the whole post (do I win a prize), and I agree with you. I think.


----------



## rtjw (Jan 15, 2008)

With all this talk about being nice to each other on the IAP. Does this mean that when I post something I will not get bashed for owning another penturning forum?


----------



## Dario (Jan 15, 2008)

This forum started as a collection of penturners that evolved to a community.  We cannot evolve and become friends if we do not express our feelings/ideas/opinions.  It is only through this that we can know the other person better.  Sadly, getting there is not easy.  Before you get a sword from an iron ore...you have to forge it.  Expose it to extreme heat, cool it, pound it, etc.  Friendship is the same, without the sacrifice TRUE friendship cannot be attained.

Much as we want to stay sweety-sweety all the time and just talk about pens...we have to go out of bounds sometimes if we want to move forward.

I will say this again, we cannot agree on everything but hope we can disagree respectfully.

Just how I see it.


----------



## Milpaul (Jan 15, 2008)

> _Originally posted by wdcav1952_
> 
> Geez, Karl, I fell asleep twice trying to read your post!! [}]  I think you made sense, though.  My neck hurts!!


I admire your strategy! You made the post too long for Cav to read so he couldn't correct it!


----------



## alamocdc (Jan 15, 2008)

I've said it before and I'll say it again... a friend is someone who knows you and STILL loves you. That said, I think I agree with you, Carl. If I really understood the intent of the post, that is. So I'll just take it that way and move on.

Oh, and thanks for noticing!


----------



## maxwell_smart007 (Jan 15, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Dario_
> 
> We cannot evolve and become friends if we do not express our feelings/ideas/opinions.  It is only through this that we can know the other person better.  Sadly, getting there is not easy.  Before you get a sword from an iron ore...you have to forge it.  Expose it to extreme heat, cool it, pound it, etc.  Friendship is the same, without the sacrifice TRUE friendship cannot be attained....we cannot agree on everything but hope we can disagree respectfully.



Dario, this deserves more than a passing 'good job'...very poignant words!  Mind if I print it out and put it in my 'quotes binder' to use in the classroom?


----------



## Dario (Jan 15, 2008)

Andrew,

I will be honored.  Go for it if you think it deserves that. [:I]


----------



## Proud_Poppa_of_2 (Jan 15, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Dario_
> 
> . . . but hope we can disagree respectfully</u>.




Dario -

I think you nailed it with a single word.


----------



## smoky10 (Jan 15, 2008)

> _Originally posted by rtjw_
> 
> With all this talk about being nice to each other on the IAP. Does this mean that when I post something I will not get bashed for owning another penturning forum?


No guarantees Johnny, no guarantees.


----------



## Marc Phillips (Jan 15, 2008)

> _"As more Rons (I assure you, no pun intended) came onto the internet..."_



<center>
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







</center>

Oh man, ya killed me!

... even funnier is how long it took me to get it!!


----------



## Dario (Jan 15, 2008)

> _Originally posted by rtjw_
> 
> Does this mean that when I post something I will not get bashed for owning another penturning forum?



Johnny,

I think it is not you owning another forum that creates the problem.  It is how your posts are worded.  They seem (at least to me) geared towards stirring emotions.  Dropping Jeff's name seems recurring as well and believe it or not, does not suit well to some.  Avoid comparing yourself to Jeff because at IAP you are a member like us.   Post like a regular member and I am sure you will be received better.

There are times when you suggest (in not too subtle way) how you would change things and how you do it in your forum.  Again that is not taken well by members.

Posting constructive ones and not just on "HOT" topics will help too. 

Maybe you are not doing it consciously so hopefully my "outsider's" insight help you.

This post can be mis-interpreted and read another way but I assure you, I only mean well.


----------



## ed4copies (Jan 15, 2008)

So, if I slap your wife, you will be perplexed as to which of us to admonish.
Since you value BOTH of us so greatly.

I'm sorry, I WON'T have that problem.

I LIKE everyone here, I LOVE my family.  I CAN drive by an accident involving YOU, since I have NO IDEA that it IS you.

Brief, to the point - if I wrote more, I COULD make it clearer and less terse.  But, I wouldn't EXPECT everyone to read it.

And no, I don't think any LESS of you, I VALUE YOUR opinion, I just have trouble finding it in all the detours.  NO harm done, No hard feelings.


----------



## rtjw (Jan 15, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Dario_
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Dario, Thanks for the constructive comments. I appreciate it.


----------



## Chasper (Jan 15, 2008)

> I will say this again, we cannot agree on everything but hope we can disagree respectfully.





> This post can be mis-interpreted and read another way but I assure you, I only mean well.


Dario,
You are respectfully practicing what you preach...I admire that.
Gerry


----------



## karlkuehn (Jan 15, 2008)

Here's the condensed version, sorry for the length of my previous post.

The Internet is a viable form of communication, where people's feelings can get hurt just as surely as if you insulted them to their face.

*People with the ability to just shrug off insults and ignore negative comments shouldn't think that everyone has that same gift.*

Many of us actually put our 'real' selves into our posts, and we have friends here that we care about. When we see those friends suffering pot-shots from people content to sit back and 'throw rocks', we'll come to their defense, I don't care how many birthday parties are going on next door.

So, again I say *the right to free speech doesn't go hand in hand with the right to insult anyone within hearing distance.*

Concise enough? Apart from the part about slapping my wife, no hard feelings here either, Ed. I'm getting pretty good at dodging rocks.


----------



## IPD_Mrs (Jan 15, 2008)

Couldn't you have just said it that way to begin with????[|)]


Just so everyone knows, Cav, Ed and myself have a no blood no foul agreement.  We enjoy picking on one another and don't do it maliciously.  This seems to be part of our make up.  Of course Mike I is finding his way into the fray as well!

Mike


----------



## DCBluesman (Jan 15, 2008)

I like the longer version better.


----------



## karlkuehn (Jan 15, 2008)

> _Originally posted by MLKWoodWorking_
> 
> Couldn't you have just said it that way to begin with????[|)]
> Mike



You have no idea how much I wish I would've done just that. Unfortunately, for some reason you can't edit your posts in this forum after 30 minutes. Didn't know that.


----------



## ed4copies (Jan 15, 2008)

Karl,

Please understand that I have posted nearly 4700 times.  I TRY to find the positive and state it clearly and, often, oversimplified.  But, if I wrote a novel on every post, I could be more accurate - less terse, and NEVER make it to 1000!!!!


----------



## Ron in Drums PA (Jan 15, 2008)

> _Originally posted by karlkuehn_
> 
> Here's the condensed version, sorry for the length of my previous post.
> 
> ...





> _Originally posted by karlkuehn_
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm glad you didn't, the long version while...  long... had some interesting insights.

But you are right, while free speech is protected in the First Amendment, our laws also state that clubs, forums, churches and other types of groups have the right to make their own rules for their membership. 

Try yelling bomb in a Airport and see how far that gets you.


----------



## karlkuehn (Jan 15, 2008)

> _Originally posted by ed4copies_
> 
> Karl,
> 
> Please understand that I have posted nearly 4700 times.  I TRY to find the positive and state it clearly and, often, oversimplified.  But, if I wrote a novel on every post, I could be more accurate - less terse, and NEVER make it to 1000!!!!



Yeah, I do see your point. 

Many of my posts tend to bleed into novels, just trying to frantically type all of the things bouncing around in my head before they find a hole. heh

I fear I'll be 900 years old before I catch up to some of you. My only hope is that there's a 4-digit limit on post count. heh


----------



## karlkuehn (Jan 15, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Ron in Drums PA_
> 
> 
> Try yelling bomb in a Airport and see how far that gets you.



Good point! 

Unfortunately I'd screw it up by yelling, "Excuse me, may I have your attention please? While I was on my way home from work yesterday I got real upset at a lot of things, so I constructed this bomb out of common household materials I picked up at Walmart. However, before I blow us all to smithereens, I'd like to share with you the experience I had at the checkout stand, see there were these magazines next to me in line, and I don't normally read them, but the line was long and I was tired of reading candy bars - oh hey, I bought this really good candy bar and you'd like it it's got chocolate and peanuts and everything and..."

[]


----------



## ed4copies (Jan 15, 2008)

Luv ya! Karl

Fell off my chair!!!


----------

