# Members Only?



## jeff

Currently, the entire IAP site is viewable by anyone. Should the entire IAP discussion forum be viewable to members only?


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## ctwxlvr

BUT, some content should not require membership.


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## slick

I can understand how SOME content would require a membership, but general useage should not. Of course I'm not a member...yet (gonna have to rectify that).


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## Proud_Poppa_of_2

If the forum were made available only to members, there would be little impetus to join IAP.  In other words, no try-before-you-buy opportunity for folks who wander by.  

I would not object to limiting certain topics to members, if appropriate.  In fact, it might make sense to limit certain topics to members who have demonstrated a certain level of worthwhile particpation and/or tenure.  By worthwhile participation, I mean substantive contributions from time to time and not just a steady stream of lighthearted banter.


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## jeff

> _Originally posted by ctwxlvr_
> 
> BUT, some content should not require membership.


Such as?

My motivation is to possibly address the issues raised in  this topic. If we get too carried away on not sharing, we'll end up just talking in vague generalities and I'm not sure that we can continue to push the state of the art as we have.

Making the entire site members only would certainly not stop the "theft of ideas" that concern some of us, but at least it would stop the casual surfers from easily seeing things. Of course people could join with the sole intent of seeing the forum to steal ideas. I don't know how you'd stop that. 

On the broader note of "theft of ideas", I'm not sure that if the idea you want to protect is the actual end product, how you stop it at all. The moment you sell your top secret pen, doesn't that license the buyer to show it around and post a photo wherever? (Unless you negotiate some type of restriction, and then who wants a pen they can't show off??) If the secret is a process or method, that's a different story. You're certainly not obliged to explain that.

The bottom line is that I'm a little saddened by the idea that some of our best penmakers don't want to show their best work here. Possibly making the forum private is just my feeble attempt to provide a "safer" environment for continued sharing.


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## fiferb

I think whether there are member only areas or not, ideas are going to be shared or "borrowed". Even if someone has a new idea that they want to keep secret, eventually it is going to become known and someone will "borrow" it. Sooner or later it will be shared here on IAP.


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## alphageek

Jeff, I voted yes.  I think your last post hits the nail on the head. I'm not sure that it would solve things due to the fact that its easy to sign up.  As for not requiring membership - maybe the library and a 'public' discussion area makes sense to leave open?

However, even though I voted yes, I'm not sure how big of a difference it would make. Also I'm a bit worried about the pain it would cause you - the home page has ties into areas that would be locked, and I'd hate to see you lose new members because of problems on the home page.


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## IPD_Mrs

I think you are cutting off your nose to spite your face.  If you are doing it solely for the purpose of slowing down theft and encouraging folks to post more photos, then you are wasting your time.  Based on another thread there have been some pretty prominent people in the industry claiming ideas as their own and I would suspect would already be a member.  If you come to here to steal ideas and it is members only, then big deal sign up to be a member.

Now from a different outlook:
Since we changed a few setting on our website shopping cart and began allowing annonymous checkout (ie...you don't have to resgister) our sales online have more than doubled.  Many folks espcially the baby boomer generation hate to give out personal information, especially for something they have no idea what it is like on the inside.  There are too many forums out there that you have to register to even see what it is about and once you are inside most of them are pretty dead.

Personally I think there are other reasons for the members only idea.  Jeff you are way to intelligent to think switching to a members only forum will cutail the theft or unwanted copying of ideas.

Anyway thats my $.005 worth.
Mike


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## mick

All this leaves me with a question.
If we don't want to share ideas...or our work why are we here?
I guess my idea of a forum is different from others here so this is what "_The American Heritage Dictionary_" says about it. Pay close attention to b. c. and d.

*foÂ·rum * 


a. The public square or marketplace of an ancient Roman city that was the assembly place for judicial activity and public business.

b. *A public meeting place for open discussion. *

c. *A medium for open discussion or voicing of ideas*, such as a newspaper, a radio or television program, or a website. 

d. *A public meeting or presentation involving a discussion        usually among experts and often including audience participation.*

e. A court of law; a tribunal.


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## Milpaul

> _Originally posted by jeff_
> The bottom line is that I'm a little saddened by the idea that some of our best penmakers don't want to show their best work here.



I felt the same way when I read the posts, and I think it's great you want to try to change the attitude. Maybe another question to ask is what would have to be done to make some of the people on the board who are afraid to post their "secret" work feel comfortable posting. Or if anything can be done if they already feel this way [?][?][?]


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## tas2181

I don't believe that anyone that has a "secret" process or ability is going to share that with anyone open or closed forum. If they are not willing to share their "secret" on an open forum they surely would hesitate to post it in a closed forum for members only, especially as those are the people most likely to have the wherewithal and means to replicate the process. The casual observer probably does not have the tools or skills necessary to do that.
I am not trying to knock those that are not willing to share their "secrets", that is their perogitive.


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## ed4copies

Sorry Jeff,

You can't legislate ethics.
Some gotem, some don't.

Some of the most qualified, highest-esteemed turners will TAKE without permission and NONE of us has the resources to defend our designs.  You can't steal what you have NOT seen.

Look at how many new ideas ARE shared and how far the craft has travelled in the past couple years.  The IAP HAS led to GREAT sharing of ideas.  SOME of us even correspond with each other in private e-mails, developing and refining ideas that end up here.  

MOST of the "Very talented" are also members of the PMG, where they can retreat to talk with other talented people.  (I am not a PMG member and I don't consider myself in the "very talented" pool, just for those who might think this a "snobby" comment)

This site is great the way it is.  Improvements are ALWAYS welcome and you are, I believe, always interested in ways to improve.  BUT, you can't change this leopard's spots.  As long as there are people willing to steal intellectual property, I will keep SOME of my property private.  YOU and 90% of the rest of the membership may respect my rights - but if there is ONE person who won't do so, and there is, I'm not going to show HIM my new "twist".

This has always been the case and I am NOT alone.  SO, the progress that the site has made has been under this "unwritten rule".  Yet, everyone acknowledges that the PROGRESS is remarkable.  It ain't broke, no need to fix it!!!

As always, Jeff, THANKS for your concern - but the site is GREAT and over 90% of the contributors are honest people.  Unless you can build a "Utopia", you aren't gonna get much better than that!!!

FWIW


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## edman2

How many times have we read, "I've been lurking about on this sight for several weeks and decided that I needed to join up"?  Put me in that group. I visited for several weeks before deciding I wanted to join. If any restrictions HAVE to be imposed perhaps anyone could see the current threads but not access the albums or archives. I'm not even sure if that is possible since I'm computer challenged at best.  I just don't think you can solve the "theft" problem by restricting access. I vote for leaving it like it is.

There are so many good ideas shared on this site that I don't have the skill or time to do that I don't think I'll miss the ones that are not shared. I've no problem with folks wanting to keep some things to themselves. That's what freedom is all about. Is this a great country or what!


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## OKLAHOMAN

I agree with Ed,you hit the nail on the head as far as stealing ideas but the question that was asked in the start of this thread was would you have your customers log on the see all the pens,prices,how much we pay for kits,blanks,etc on group buys. I said not only no but I wish at times this forum was for members only. I don't know if its possible but keep non members from seeing the Marketing,and classified forums. Thats my only concern not if someone would steal my ideas. If I ever have something so earth shattering that its going to make me the next Edison, I'll share it AFTER I see a patent lawyer, in the meantime I'll post what I want other here to see and share 90% of what I do.What we need is keep the public out of our marketing and business sections.


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## wood-of-1kind

Do you remember what a "stink" that some IAP members mentioned when Rhiezing asked to register to view their pricing for pens?. If you make it restrictive or an inconvenience then a "potential" future IAP HALL of FAMER may not join "us" at all. Keep it simple, leave the viewing as is. There are some great ideas and beautiful masterpieces being created but guys let's get real and accept that we are only making beautiful art. So what if Davincis, Botticellis, Michelangelo's (do you see my Italian prejudice here?[)]) are "borrowed"? At times I think that we have some real prima donnas here that have inflated pen egos that grow longer than Pinocchio's nose[)] Stay real and stay grounded.

-Peter- with some not so humble opinions


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## ashaw

My only issue.  I have no problem with non-members viewing the forum only certain areas.  I do have a problem in areas were we are dicussing pricing of our work, customer issues, kit issues, and group buys.  Those areas should be left to members only. You may have a mix of pen turners and customers buying your finished product.


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## maxwell_smart007

I think Jeff has quite a conundrum on his hands.  By making the site 'registration required', he would be essentially limiting membership to the few who KNOW what the IAP is about.  Very few passers-by would stop and join...I wouldn't have, because I WASN'T a penturner then.  I joined because I looked at a few posts, decided I'd learn a lot, and wanted to contribute and learn as much as possible!  

However, if the result of not registering is that we lose one of our greatest attributes - that of free sharing of ideas, and inspiration - then we will essentially destroy what this forum is about.  To me, a forum is a place where you meet, chat, and LEARN.    

Personally, I think the greatest form of flattery would be to have someone use a design that I created...and I think that that would inspire me to make an even better design to try and stay ahead of the pack.  As far as intellectual property is concerned, trademark it...seriously, if you're afraid that your priceless design will be plastered over every pen shop from here to Yuma, then protect it somehow if that's your concern...but I think the bigger concern would be to lose the free exchange of ideas that make forums work...

So no, I didn't vote - because I don't know the answer...but I don't like the options that have been presented - block anonymous viewers, or see people stop posting their processes...Because if we stop presenting ideas and challenges to others, who will inspire and challenge us??  That's just my two cents - and I know it won't convince anyone who's polar-opposite in opinion to mine, but 'what man is a man who does not try to make the world better?'  

Andrew


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## great12b4ever

I agree with Alan.  I think portions of the forum should be open to non-members, but I think certain portions should be open to members only, such as marketing and shows, individual classifieds, business calssifieds, shop jigs fixtures, group buys, the library, and such.  These should be members only!!  That way, a casual surfer can look at a lot of information and get a good feel for the forum before they join.  Then when they see that there are even more topics for them to look at by joining, then then can.  If they choose not to, that is their loss.  We won't stop everything as this is not a perfect world.  In fact, there was a quote I read a long, long time ago that said something like this, " Nature intended the world to be an almost perfect place, and it was until man came along."

Just my thoughts

Rob


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## alamocdc

I voted no, but I fully understand the sentiment of some. If I were to come up with a new concept or idea (like Skippy seems to keep doing), I might want to get it out myself for awhile before sharing. Then again, I might not. How many of us have the equipment or knowledge required to turn metal pens? Some, but only some so the risk of someone beating you to the market of such items is far less. I've learned a great deal from many of our members (past and present) and I've used this knowledge to improve. I've also used this knowledge to "springboard" or otherwise refine concepts to what best works for me. These may or may not be useful to others, but I've shared most of them nonetheless.

I believe it was Solomon who said, "There is nothing new under the sun."


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## Daniel

In my opinion, The theft of ideas issue is becoming a reality if even in very few cases. This on one hand only shows that penturning is coming into it's own as a variation of wood turning in general. this is a huge benchmark to have reached. on the down side along with recognition and advancement comes the same issues that have plagued turners since the first table leg was made. when is it borrowing and when is it stealing? closing this site to non members will do nothing to address this issue. and it will prevent the try to see if you like it as well. look how many new members say, I came, I read, I said wow, so I joined. What I suggest is a way for this group to record the advancements of our members. it might be hard to verify that some ideas where original. but what about TSW by Lou, the corn cob blank by Larry or even the 50 cal pen  by Paul. Home stabilization ideas, even methods of casting acrylic blanks. there have been so many ideas born from members of this group. Not only should they have the credit recorded but the I.A.P. as a group should also. even just a file that has any hot new thing added to it with date and credit as best as we know given to the originator. This would also serve as a means to discredit claims such as Lou had with the Puzzle pen thing.


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## Mudder

> _Originally posted by ed4copies_
> 
> Sorry Jeff,
> 
> You can't legislate ethics.
> Some gotem, some don't.
> 
> Some of the most qualified, highest-esteemed turners will TAKE without permission and NONE of us has the resources to defend our designs.  You can't steal what you have NOT seen.
> 
> Look at how many new ideas ARE shared and how far the craft has travelled in the past couple years.  The IAP HAS led to GREAT sharing of ideas.  SOME of us even correspond with each other in private e-mails, developing and refining ideas that end up here.
> 
> MOST of the "Very talented" are also members of the PMG, where they can retreat to talk with other talented people.  (I am not a PMG member and I don't consider myself in the "very talented" pool, just for those who might think this a "snobby" comment)
> 
> This site is great the way it is.  Improvements are ALWAYS welcome and you are, I believe, always interested in ways to improve.  BUT, you can't change this leopard's spots.  As long as there are people willing to steal intellectual property, I will keep SOME of my property private.  YOU and 90% of the rest of the membership may respect my rights - but if there is ONE person who won't do so, and there is, I'm not going to show HIM my new "twist".
> 
> This has always been the case and I am NOT alone.  SO, the progress that the site has made has been under this "unwritten rule".  Yet, everyone acknowledges that the PROGRESS is remarkable.  It ain't broke, no need to fix it!!!
> 
> As always, Jeff, THANKS for your concern - but the site is GREAT and over 90% of the contributors are honest people.  Unless you can build a "Utopia", you aren't gonna get much better than that!!!
> 
> FWIW




Ed has a point,

I will post some stuff but there is a very small amount that I keep to myself. I'm currently working on a project that is inspired by a pen kit and if successful could become a good seller for me. Sorry but I'm not going to show it for a while and there is only one person who even knows what it is. I told Ed that he is sworn to secrecy and if I ever find out he told anyone I will find out his HOME phone number and post it! I'm sure that has him plenty scared. 

About 6 weeks ago I had an inquiry from a magazine as the the origin of the Sierra pencil tutorial. It seems that another "author" submitted an article to a magazine and submitted a hacked up version of my tutor claiming it as their own. What they failed to do was to change the tag in Acrobat showing who wrote the article. Needless to say the article will not be published as submitted, if it's published at all. I have learned a lot from the membership here and I have tried to give back as much as I can but after having someone attempt to claim my work as their own for a profit is unacceptable in my book.

I also believe a similar situation has happened to another member here . Having a tutorial that was posted here hacked up and redistributed without giving proper credit.


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## Mudder

> _Originally posted by alamocdc_
> 
> I believe it was Solomon who said, "There is nothing new under the sun."



Billy, I must respectfully disagree.

If this is the case, and there really is nothing new under the son, then why is the patent office still open?


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## Daniel

Sorry but I still have another thought. I have read quite a bit of both threads on this issue. And I do not see people having a problem with there idea being "borrowed" or copied. there problem is when someone takes there idea and tries to claim they came up with it. Certainly if they try to claim it before a large audience. I think few people here would think that is right. I also think few of us would say that is what this group is about. But sharing ideas here also causes our members to be vulnerable to those that would claim there ideas as there own. Does it fall within the mission statement of this group to protect those that come here and share? If so then how?
Gary, Lou and Ed. I ask you specifically to either support of refute what I have said here about what the Issue is as you see it. at this time my statement does not carry much weight as it is only my understanding or "Opinion".


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## BRobbins629

More important than the ideas we borrow/steal/improve are the friendships developed through this site.  For me, I've had the good fortune to correspond and meet a number of members through questions, pen swaps, material trades and group buys.  If we were to total all the lost sales from ideas that were copied I can't imagine the dollars would add up to much.  A talented penmaker will probably not copy an idea.  An untalented one will do a poor copy job.  Keep it open. There are other restricted sites and private email clubs for those who for whatever reason choose not to share.  The mission for this site should include a warm welcome to newcomers as well as a place for those who choose to teach.


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## IPD_Mrs

> _Originally posted by Mudder_
> 
> I told Ed that he is sworn to secrecy



Scott you must be joking.  Have you seen Ed's post numbers?  There are only five members that have posted more that Ed.  He talks more than a blonde at a beauty salon![:0]

Mike


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## dfurlano

I agree with Alan and I would allow access to only to participating members and to any forum that discusses any topics that are not public domain</u> and not just someone who registers.  There is no reason that if there is value in a forum that it should not be limited.

I no longer post on this forum and it has nothing to do with stealing ideas and all to do with people not participating or adding any value.


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## PR_Princess

> _Originally posted by jeff_
> 
> 
> The bottom line is that I'm a little saddened by the idea that some of our best penmakers don't want to show their best work here. Possibly making the forum private is just my feeble attempt to provide a "safer" environment for continued sharing.




Jeff,

I believe that this site, along with several other factors, is a major contributor to the advancement that the pen turning industry has seen over the last few years. This ability to bounce ideas off of each other is one of the things that has advanced this art so rapidly. I, also, do not feel that creativity should be reserved. To do so would be to stifle it.

Nevertheless, after four years of rapid growth, a watershed has been reached. Many turners here are at or beyond a jumping off point in the art. It would be unfair to continue ask them to contribute everything they know to the general public, or admonish them for not doing so.

Unfortunately the theft of ideas has only begun. I am not talking about taking a concept and putting your own twist on it. I am referring to outright plagiarism. As the pens here continue to improve, you will begin to see the larger manufacturers start to target this and the few other sites for â€œcopyableâ€ ideas. (Just think of the uproar it would cause if say, Mont Blanc put out a pen that was first shown here.) Think that is incredulous? Look at other craft industries. It is already a well-known practice. It just has not happened here yet.  Why? Because individual turners were â€“ well, not up to their standards. That is now changing. 

Over all, I would suggest you keep the forum as it is. However, if you want the creativity to be continued here on a higher level, you may want to consider a separate hidden forum or room. A special â€œmembers onlyâ€ section if you will.  The criteria for entry can be worked out, but it should involve a certain level of acumen and expertise. 

OK enough of my two cents.


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## skiprat

I believe that the only forum that should be open to the public should be SOYP. there is enough discussion in there to attract new members. 
I still think that if you don't post, say within a month or two, then your membership should lapse.


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## wood-of-1kind

> _Originally posted by BRobbins629_
> 
> The mission for this site should include a warm welcome to newcomers as well as a place for those who choose to teach.



With Bruce's consent, I think that this would make an excellent header BANNER for the IAP home page.

-Peter-


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## ed4copies

> _Originally posted by MLKWoodWorking_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Originally posted by Mudder_
> 
> I told Ed that he is sworn to secrecy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Scott you must be joking.  Have you seen Ed's post numbers?  There are only five members that have posted more that Ed.  He talks more than a blonde at a beauty salon![:0]
> 
> Mike
Click to expand...


And I will tell you EVERYTHING I know, EXCEPT those things that have been said to me IN CONFIDENCE and a few of Dawn's gems of creativity.  I DO have ethics, I WISH everyone did (This statement is not meant to reflect on ANY one here!!)


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## GaryMGg

NB: The following is *not* based on any empiricial information. It is 100% my personal opinion.

I voted no only because there isn't an option for "Hell no!" 

The topic at issue in the referenced thread has been discussed here and in other locales at length.
It was a topic of discussion in Woodwork magazine for roughly three months.

There was a comment Ed made in the other thread WRT the tax man which evoked a response from Jeff:


> _Originally posted by ed4copies_
> Before you put ANYTHING on this site, think about the "Possible downside".
> FWIW!!!


And Jeff wrote:


> Well there's a shot in the arm to participation.



Ed's statement was related to the fact that statements you post may used elsewhere so if you're giving out private information just be aware of the reality.
In this day and age, nothing we say online is really separated from our physical lives any more.

With respect to penturning, pencrafting, and artistic and intellectual property, I believe the reality is this:
IF someone has something they don't want to share the best protection is saying nothing.
 For the non-computer geeks: that actually does say "saying nothing" in a white font! [}]

I'll use a specific example of someone showing their work and not posting how it's done: Eagle's Inlay Cross.
I know how it's done! First time I saw one, I knew how it was done. I told him how he does it.
Over time, we've talked about how it's done. And I've learned better ways to do it with Eagle's input.
Will I ever share that info with anyone -- NO. It's not my place to say how he does it.
However, there is at least ONE other person who posts a cross inlay pen that appears to me to be as good as those Eagle makes. IF he says how he does it, that's his business but so far he hasn't.
No one, to my knowledge, has complained regarding that lack of shared information.
I'm not including the laser cut blanks in my consideration; in my opinion, they are a totally separate product.

People will steal/borrow/modify/obfuscate/transform *your ideas*. Sometimes, they'll give credit; sometimes not.
The inspiration for my Harlequin came from Ron McIntire's "Morning After".
I wrote that several times when I first made a few pens like that;
I've stopped saying it because I now simply make what I like without considering where the initial thought came from.

I wrote a "Celtic knot" pictorial of How I make the knot even though George Bucher (Texatdurango) wrote a better one.
And, I told people where to find his and some other one I don't recall -- it's posted somewhere in a Knot thread and can be looked up. I wrote it because I felt there was a need for another one. I didn't take credit for it as an original idea -- that'd certainly have been wrong. However, the morning Bernie T (Brokenbit), Norm B (Bluewing92) & I were in my shop at the Table saw and Bernie set the blade to cut part way thru was the same morning Steven J (Skiprat) posted his tip about using the bandsaw and not cutting all the way through.
Imagine what would've happened if we posted our "original idea" that day without looking at the forum?
You think TSWHTF?!?  

Maybe I'm different than many others -- I can look at almost any of furniture and know how it's made and how to make it. I've got a pretty good mechanical mind and am more than a casual reader of building techniques. However, seeing what you've made doesn't mean I will make a *good copy*. I can copy any design the Gisi's, Cueman, Yoyospin, DCB, Texatdurango, or anyone else can make -- but it doesn't mean I'll implement it as well as they have. Therein lies the difference in value that matters wrt price.
Ethically, I will never take credit for anything I didn't come up with on my own (if I ever do an original design, I'll let y'all know). However, those who will, will.

Personally, I don't think there's a section of the forum that should be closed to anyone. Our costs are not really a mystery. Anyone can find out what the wholesale price of almost anything is. Getting thru the door to actually get parts is only a minor step. *Having the talent to make something beautiful* is another matter altogether.

Stick a fork in me, I'm done.


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## IPD_Mrs

> _Originally posted by ed4copies_
> 
> And I will tell you EVERYTHING I know, EXCEPT those things that have been said to me IN CONFIDENCE and a few of Dawn's gems of creativity.  I DO have ethics, I WISH everyone did (This statement is not meant to reflect on ANY one here!!)



Now Ed I never said you were not a stand up guy.  It was just a lot of fun calling you a blonde in a beauty salon.  

Ok everyone, think back to the mug/mug photo. [:0]

Mike


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## GaryMGg

> Ok everyone, think back to the mug/mug photo. [:0]


That thread's more scary then this'n.


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## Daniel

there are things your mind just refuses to recall.


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## winpooh498

I am very mixed about this topic, I see VERY valid points on both sides of the "isle".  I am a member of another site that has "special rooms" for members, but only certain members and I think that type of system makes the site seem very cliquish.  I don't like the idea of potential customers coming here are reading all about our cost and how we price our pens.  I think that is very bad for business. We don't have the IAP logo on our site, because it is "encouraged" that it link back to IAP.  I understand that it is NOT a requirement that is does, and I do understand why it should, but as stated above I don't want customers here seeing the business side of this addiction. 
I could see leaving the SYOP and even the "Other things we make" forums open to the public, but closing everything else.  I would also suggest that if you are not an active member, your membership goes inactive after a certain amount of time. I was just looking at the membership list out of 312 pages, 82 pages had members that had made more then 10 posts (1223 people), 32 that had at least 100(467 people), and 160 pages of no posts ever (2400 people), so how many contributing members do we really have???  Now just because they haven't made any or very many posts DOES NOT mean that they are not here lurking and gleaning from the contributing members.  I think that by limiting access to all parts of the site except for "SYOP" and "Other Things we make" to only active members, could deter not all of but some of the "stealing" of ideas and concepts.  The "SYOP" and "Other Things  we make" had enough info and feel of the site for a good test drive.

Please remember this is only one of my opinions. I really don't think that there is a right or wrong answer, we have to figure out what we can or can not live with for ourselves.


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## great12b4ever

As many of you know, my father died just this past Jan 1, 2008.  He was buried with one of my segmented pens in his folded hands.  This pen was my fourth try at segmenting, and was realtively simple, made with walnut and maple.  It has a section of walnut about 1/4" long on each end of the barrel (it was a Sierra), with maple for the main body.  The maple was further segmented from end to ends with a simple x pattern that did not reach the sides like a celtic knot would.  Just plain simple lines.  I had worked on this design for a while before I made it.  The pen was finished with Friction Polish.  It, by my standards of today was poorly designed and poorly turned. 

 My father loved that pen.  Whenever other people would see my Celtic knots, my herringbones, My inlays, my brass or aluminum ssegmented pens, or any of the other later, greater pens, He would alwasy bring that pen out of his pocket and say that while my other pens were nice, this was the best yet, because he could look at it with all of its flaws and imperfections, and say that this was one of my ideas, and one of my designs, and it shows where I came from, and what level I have obtained to now because of IAP.  I felt Okay with this, and then one day I was looking thru some pictures in the albums and came across almost the same pen style, made much earlier than mine, with different woods and different dimensions, but the same idea.  

I felt bad, because here was my Dad saying it was my idea, and yet someone else had already done somthing like it before.  He still has that pen in his hands, and No I never told him about the other turners pen.  

Now, when I do segmenting, if someone asks me how I get my ideas, I tell them that I look at a lot of pictures, find something that intrigues me, try to figure out how it is done, and then change it or modify it to get a look I like.  So there is probably not much new in the line of design of pens by segmenting and such, but there is a lot in craftsmanship and marketing.

I still think part of this forum should be open for the casual lookers, but I think part of this should be for contributing members only.

Rob


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## maxwell_smart007

I think this is one of those topics that will never be resolved...seriously.  In a week or two, we'll have 30 or 40 pages of posts, with everyone saying one of two things...

Yes, I think we should limit membership to those who meet a certain requirement (to be determined) 
or 
No, I think that the forum should be open to all

Just as in politics, it's nearly impossible to convince people who are steadfastly refusing to change their opinion.  You know my opinion - I'm a free-exchange of ideas idealist!  I know that it would take a very persuasive argument to make me change mine - it can be done, but it's not likely to happen..

So, are we going to resolve anything by continuing to say the same things?  likely not.  Should we continue?  Perhaps...that ties in with the free exchange of ideas concept...but very few opinions are likely to change.

Some people want to be teachers, some don't...if everyone did, we'd have an even tighter job market for people like me!


----------



## alamocdc

> _Originally posted by Mudder_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Originally posted by alamocdc_
> 
> I believe it was Solomon who said, "There is nothing new under the sun."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Billy, I must respectfully disagree.
> 
> If this is the case, and there really is nothing new under the son, then why is the patent office still open?
Click to expand...


No problem at all, Scott. But to answer your question, because of the many variations on other ideas that just happen to be different enough to be rationalized as original. Now I realize that this may be a bit of an over generalization, but is it really when you truly think about it? If I have a patent on a machine that makes... let's just say bushings... and you have a patent on a machine that also makes bushings, but they don't make them the same way, is it really different? The end result is the same, we just got to the same end by different methods. The patent or intellectual property idea is simply our way of trying to protect one's monetary (or other) worth (and I'm not saying I disagree w/it).

Was I the first to use automotive paint to color PR? Maybe not, but I had not seen or read of anyone else using it three years ago and that's all I used until a few months ago. Does that make my method better or really any different than anyone else's? Not at all and we arrive at the same end... colored PR. Does using my method allow me to achieve a different look than the others? Possibly. Is it something I wish I'd never mentioned so I could keep a corner on it? Nope. It certainly isn't the cheapest method for coloring PR so I doubt many would ever venture there. I just happened to have a stockpile of it and I like to experiment.

My point is just that I just because I use a different method, product or technique to arrive at the same end as someone else doesn't make it "new". It just makes it different.


----------



## Ron Mc

> _Originally posted by great12b4ever_
> 
> 
> I felt Okay with this, and then one day I was looking thru some pictures in the albums and came across almost the same pen style, made much earlier than mine, with different woods and different dimensions, but the same idea.
> 
> I felt bad, because here was my Dad saying it was my idea, and yet someone else had already done somthing like it before.  He still has that pen in his hands, and No I never told him about the other turners pen.
> 
> Rob



Rob,
I have been following this thread and honestly have not been compelled to throw my opinion out until I read your post.
You brought up a wonderful point that seems to have been missed so far.

You felt compelled to create a design that when completed was a design that you hadn't seen before and this allowed you a feeling of accomplishment and your father with a very special pen to show off his sons art work with! He was very proud of this design that YOU had created and cherished it.

In my opinion YOU created the design. Then after you created it and your father had already enjoyed it's uniqueness you found another one that was similar. So? You hadn't seen the other pen before you made it. Thus it is your design and always will be your fathers design!

I hope that you understand what I am trying to point out.

I guess the point I am trying to make to every existing pen artist and any future pen artists is this:  Be proud of every pen you make, and know that regardless of what it looks like in the end YOU created the finished work of art. No one else did. They finished their own work of art.


As far as the original question here:
I have sent countless e-mails to other turners trying desperately to get them to realize that potential customers are here enjoying the IAP site as we are. With this in mind it should be common sense not to post prices of hardware or what you sold a pen for or what blanks cost. I decided about a year ago that it was a loosing battle to get posters to realize this and stopped sending e-mails out.
I believe that any area that someone may decide to post a cost should be a "members only".....Why would we as a pen artist want potential customers be able to browse the "Individual ads" or the "Business ads"? This makes absolutely no sense at all.


----------



## skiprat

It is almost a 40 / 60 split at the moment. But that was for the site to be ENTIRELY for members.
I think that it would look *very* much different if it was PART private, looking at the replies and comments so far.


----------



## PR_Princess

Skippy,

Agreed. The word "entirely" may be skewing (pun not intended) the results. Can we have a follow up poll??

BTW, Steven - see your wife made the home page! Congrats!!


----------



## jhs494

Jeff, I think the IAP mission statement tells you that this is suppose to be a place to share ideas</u> to help promote the art of penturning.


----------



## Ozzy

I have had a few customers go one line Google pen kits and then question me about my prices and I tell them that they are more than welcomed to go purchase all of the stuff required to make the pens and practice until they get it right and then decide if my prices are so bad; so far none have not paid my price. So, I don't think closing off any of the site to members only will fix that problem.

 That being said, when I first joined I had been making the styles of pens that I make (slim line pens without the center band and considerably fatter than normal slim lines and single piece slim line pencils) I had never seen them before, I am not saying that I was the first but I am saying that I didn't get the idea from anyone, and a few people have asked me how to do it and I pm'd them the instructions on the way that I do it. I have gotten ideas from this site and have tried a few but I don't take the credit for them. I believe that what comes around goes around.

 Lastly, as for the amount of post people make dictating membership staus, I stopped posting for a long time because there were a few members getting pissy with people asking questions, things started seeming real cliquish, and that wasn't how it was when I joined, so I just stopped posting. Things seem better now, we have had some pretty sensitive discussions here lately without anybody getting "ugly" about it.

That's my five cents worth.


----------



## Milpaul

> _Originally posted by PR_Princess_
> 
> 
> 
> However, if you want the creativity to be continued here on a higher level, you may want to consider a separate hidden forum or room. A special â€œmembers onlyâ€ section if you will.  The criteria for entry can be worked out, but it should involve a certain level of acumen and expertise.



I really hope it hasn't come to this! When I started here I know I had a lot of the "same old questions" but most made me feel very welcome and I know they saved me a lot of time and money. I in turn try to do the same to the other "rookies" to pay my dues, I see that a lot here. Anyway although there were a lot of inside jokes I didn't understand (I later realized it was just Ed trying to get his post count up ) I felt no heirarchy here. 
 If I would have saw there was a "secret room" that only certain people were allowed to go in I certainly wouldn't have felt that way. Also, who decides who gets to go into the "secret room?" I realize I probably feel this way because I never had an idea good enough for anyone to steal and make money on. I do wonder though how many of the ideas that some won't share were in some way influenced by something else you may have seen here or elsewhere, and if you would have come up with this idea if someone else felt the same way you did and never posted it in the first place?


----------



## ed4copies

Paul,

WRONG!!  There is a hierarchy here:

JEFF IS KING,

LONG LIVE THE KING

After that, everybody else is pretty equal.

(Brown-nosing for the day complete!)


----------



## CrazyBear

I too see no sense in allowing casual browsers( or potential customers) to see what our materials and kits cost or what price/profit (if any) we are making on the pens we sell, But if you close down the whole site to non members then where do new members become interested.

Personally I would leave the Show us what you made type areas wide open but move the Group buys sales and ads to an inner area( it is easily done I believe. I have seen it on other sites where I am a member)

How you decide on the membership of these areas is another matter does it come down to those who have posted pics of their pens only, or number of posts. either way you are restricting the membership in some manner.

As for the theft of ideas. Is it a theft if you are unaware of the existance of previous incarnations of ideas. There are only so many ways you can dress a pen kit.

As an example I recently submitted a tip to the AAW magazine. They are using it and paid me for the tip. Now I dont know if anyone has used that idea before but I have since seen references on here to a similar set up using earth magnets, I now ask myself if I have stolen someone else's idea and profited from it, I dont know, and if I have it was never my intention, It was simply an idea that I used to store tools that I do not recall seeing anywhere else.. so where does that leave me if some of you come back and state that you have been using that Idea for years. Am I a thief


----------



## IPD_Mrs

> _Originally posted by jhs494_
> 
> Jeff, I think the IAP mission statement tells you that this is suppose to be a place to share ideas</u> to help promote the art of penturning.




You just nailed it on the head.  Here is a cut and paste (copied[:0] ) from the mission statement posted in the about us section.

The goal of the IAP is to give penturners a place to enhance their skills, share experiences, and promote the art of penturning.

It also states that to become a member all you need is a username and password.  So if someone only comes here to garner ideas, then making this member view only would not stop this action.  So with it's own ideals clearly listed for eveyone to see, isn't this discussion pretty mute anyway?  Or are we going to change things around and have someone dictate who can become a member?

And as for the price thing, do we ask CSUSA, AS, PSI, Ernie and all the others to become member only web sites as a potential customer can see the prices we pay?  Go search for the post by Mr. Ed Brown about the woman who told him her husband can make those pens.  I am not embarassed by the prices I asked other than them being too low at times.  If I have $50 invested in a kit and blank and feel the need to charge $400 for the pen because it is exceptional then so be it.  The potential customer can either buy it or not.  As far as I am concerned if they don't, then they do not appreciate the effort, time and creativity that went into making it and it is their loss.

Mike


----------



## GaryMGg

The post by Bernhard Hofmann in this thread http://www.penturners.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=31609 says it all to me. 
That's his first post!
No indication how long he's been here stealing ideas.
Surely not as long as I have. [}]


----------



## maxwell_smart007

Ok, the thing everyone is forgetting is that no information about our pens is given out here that someone can't find by google-searching for it.  Price of blanks? Google search.  Price of kits?  Google search.  Cost of tools?  Google search.  Close down the site to non-members, and you'll find that the customers will just find the information elsewhere.  

Ok, so lets say that we create a blockade in which you have to sign up to view anything.  Ok, good...now we've stopped the barbarians at the moat.  Oh, what's that?  Yep, they can just sign up to cross the moat.  If anyone's going to take the time to actively search out designs to pass off as their own, then it goes to reason that they won't be stopped by simply having to sign up to view the things they came here to see...

Lets say that to stop this, you make an inner keep in which only the 'experienced' turners get to reside.  This will result in ill-will, and feelings of 'why wasn't I invited'.  People will stop participating.  

There's no information on here that customers couldn't find out elsewhere...so to make false walls that serve no purpose but to discourage potentially-interested (yet unsure) turners from joining, is silly.    

As far as the withholding information problem - there is no solution.  Do what you think is right.  If you want to withhold information, processes, secret recipes, that's fine.  It's your prerogative to do whatever you think is right...Share to the best of your abilities, or the limits of your willingness.  

Let's just stop messing around with the idea of restricting membership, because it's not going to make any difference to the idea of intellectual property, and it's not going to make any difference to whether your ideas will get stolen; that will happen whether someone's a member or not...all it will do is keep people from joining up, or create a plethora of people signing up and never posting, or perhaps posting just to get to the total required to see the 'forbidden room'...

If we go ahead and make a 'forbidden room', or 'restricted' section, the people who are still worried about posting certain designs will still worry, and we won't see the new designs anyway, because the root problem still exits - internet forums aren't secure.  But then again, they were never meant to be.  

That's my last word on this... que sera sera!


----------



## Rmartin

I vote No.


----------



## airrat

I am undecided on this issue as of right now.  I completely understand everyone's feelings on the theft/copy/stealing ideas issue.  

But even making "parts" of the site private to members only, how hard is it to become a member here?  It only takes a few seconds to register.

The one thing I don't want to see is a section that takes a criteria to get into.  For some reason that does not sit well.  I guess its the feeling that if the criteria is set too high then some members get left out, what happens then.  I don't feel I have come up with anything that is out of this world in making pens, does that leave me lower on the talent pole?


----------



## jhs494

I must say I don't sell pens.
But I consider pen turning an art, and if you really think about it the Mona Lisa started as inexpensive art supplies, it became a great work of art at the hands of the artist.


----------



## stoneman

I am a relatively new member here as well as being a new penturner. I became interested in pen turning when an IAP member (jrc) graciously offered to show me how to turn pens. I had approached him with an interest in having him make me a few moose antler pens. After a few conversations with Jim about common interests, he thought I might be interested in learning to make my own pens. He offered up some of his time, a lesson on his equipment, a pen kit or two and shared his supply information and opinions on getting myself set up. He even encouraged me to think about selling antler pens (which I am not really interested in at this point). Jim also steered me to IAP as a forum and resource. I will be eternally grateful for his help. Perhaps one day I'll have developed sufficient skill and experience to contribute something substantive to this forum. In the mean time, I greatly appreciate reading many posts and seeiing peoples' work. It saves me time and money, inspires me to try new things and provides occasional feedback. If some people don't feel compelled to share everything they know or do, it is still a fantastic resource and great place to learn. If I might use an analogy - I am a deer hunting enthusiast. I have many deer hunting friends who are comparative experts. They often share tips, thoughts on deer habitat, observations regarding deer behavior, interesting antecdotes and many other points of interest that improve my understanding of the sport and increase my enjoyment. They rarely offer up their best hunting hotspots or the location of current deer sign concentrations. In other words, they provide substantial general guidance, answer questions, help with equipment and techniques, but leave me on my own to take it from there. Since joining IAP, with jrc's help and that of forum members, I have turned about 30-40 pens. Most were from moose antler that I found here in Vermont. A few were from an old beat up hickory cane that my grandmother left my mother (I now have several relatives treasuring "Grandma Pearl Cane Pens"). By my way of thinking, the folks on this forum who choose not to share every cutting edge detail should be viewed as 90% generous, not 10% selfish. I, for one, greatly appreciate their generousity. IMHO efforts to restrict viewing and/or membership will not solve the problem of potential unauthorized use of ideas.


----------



## MarkHix

For what it's worth:
I'm one of the new guys.  I don't post alot.  I read everything.  If this site was not open like it is, I probably would not have become the addict that I am.  I spent several days reading everthing.  I was amazed and still am amazed at the pens posted.  I keep learning things everytime I log in, which is every day.  Not only have I learned to make a pen (and even one someone would pay for!), it has helped my other turning projects and broadened my imagination.  The help I received from members here is the reason.  I'm not in this for the money but I respect those of you that are.  You need to protect your income.  If I were doing something special and it was my source of income, I would protect it too.  I see the special pens, the unique (to me) designs and tell myself that I want to try that too.  Somewhere there is a compromise.  I hope we find it because I would hate to lose the inspiration I get from pens posted here.


----------



## gcurran

I voted "no."  I am a rank newbie at pen turning.  Through the graciousness of Jim Shaver (Jim in Oakville), I am learning rapidly.  Jim has been very willing to share information, tips and tricks with me.  I get the same feeling from reading the other forum entries.  For example, I would not have thought of using CA as a finish this early in my turning and would not have the "guts" to try it without being able to ask questions of a guru.  

Other fouums that I am a member of only allow a very limited number of the areas to be open - works for them, but then again the topics are of the forum are fairly esoteric and the worldwide population of interested parties is small and not growing at a large rate.  Could it be because the information is not as readily available as it is here?


----------



## Grizz

What constitutes membership?


----------



## gketell

I think the tutorials should be private and the show off your pens should be.  If someone wants to learn a bunch from the site they should sign up.  

GK


----------



## Randy_

> _Originally posted by slick_
> 
> I can understand how SOME content would require a membership, but general useage should not. Of course I'm not a member...yet (gonna have to rectify that).



Of course you are a member.  Otherwise you would not be able to post.


----------



## Randy_

> _Originally posted by ed4copies_
> 
> .....Most of the "Very talented" are also members of the PMG, where they can retreat to talk with other talented people.  (I am not a PMG member and I don't consider myself in the "very talented" pool, just for those who might think this a "snobby" comment)



It is not much of a retreat.  I am not a member of the PMG; but can (unless the policy has changed recently) view all of their posts and all of their pictures as can any individual with Internet access.


----------



## Mudder

> _Originally posted by Randy__
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Originally posted by ed4copies_
> 
> .....Most of the "Very talented" are also members of the PMG, where they can retreat to talk with other talented people.  (I am not a PMG member and I don't consider myself in the "very talented" pool, just for those who might think this a "snobby" comment)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is not much of a retreat.  I am not a member of the PMG; but can (unless the policy has changed recently) view all of their posts and all of their pictures as can any individual with Internet access.
Click to expand...


Can you post on the PMG forum? I believe that is what Ed was referring to when he says "talk".


----------



## Randy_

This is a very nice theoretical discussion; but the reality is that the current difference between a member and a non-member is about 30 seconds of someone's time and about fifty key strokes.  I agree with a previous comment that requiring membership may discourage a few of the most casual surfers; but think it unlikely to deter anyone with a serious desire to visit and "borrow."  Balance that against the loss of legitimate inquiries and potential new contributing members and my gut tells me it will be IAP that suffers.


----------



## Daniel

> _Originally posted by Ozzy_
> 
> I have had a few customers go one line Google pen kits and then question me about my prices and I tell them that they are more than welcomed to go purchase all of the stuff required to make the pens and practice until they get it right and then decide if my prices are so bad; so far none have not paid my price.


I had a friend that had a lot fo interest in my pens. over a couple of months he bought a couple of 40 or 50 dollar ones and bartered with me for a couple more. I envited him to check ou this group, even gave him some of my catalogs to look at for other pen styles he liked.
Being a crafty person himself the bug finally bit. I taught him how to make a pen, the eventually made 3 or 4 of them on my equipment. Those where the only cheap pens he ever got. after that he bought his own equipment, so the next pen cost him $600. He new cause he kept track. The last time I spoke to him, he told me that if he ever needed a really nice pen, he would come see me to work out a trade.
My customers pay for what I know and my skill.


----------



## Randy_

> _Originally posted by Mudder_
> 
> .....Can you post on the PMG forum? I believe that is what Ed was referring to when he says "talk".



No.  A non-member cannot post on the PMG forum.  I understood (perhaps erroneously) the word "retreat" to imply that the _talented_ went to the PMG forum for privacy and protection from the "borrowers."  If you can see the pictures and read the posts, then you certainly have much of what you need to borrow material.  You don't need to be able to "talk."


----------



## Fred

I am worn out from reading so I'll skip to making my entry ...

Leave the FORUM open for reading by interested individuals, however, make POSTING to the FORUM a Members Only thing. Also, verify the member's info with an e-mail back to them to verify their information prior to 
allowing them to post anything at all. Make the data info on each member joining a mandatory thing as well, i.e., location to include state and city, etc.

I figure it this way, if someone wants to join the rest of us them they should want to share with us who they are, where they hail from, etc.


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## Randy_

My name is Heatherosous Silcrhmbacker and I live in Upilunga, Louisiana.  I would like to join IAP.  Thanks.


----------



## OKLAHOMAN

Sorry but our quota of people named Heatherosous Silcrhmbacker from Upilunga,Louisiana is full access denied.





> _Originally posted by Randy__
> 
> My name is Heatherosous Silcrhmbacker and I live in Upilunga, Louisiana.  I would like to join IAP.  Thanks.


----------



## MikeInMo

I am another one of those new guys here who is in sponge mode for the time being, and I lurked for a while before joining.  Posting pictures of run of the mill slimlines while I learn how to do this seems like a waste of bandwidth and server space so I haven't.  

Not allowing the public to view this forum will kill it.  Requiring a minimum number of posts will kill it.  Not sharing what you know on this forum will kill it.  Why?  I, like many people, read through a lot of the threads on this forum before deciding to join, and one day I will contribute something that someone (maybe even you) will find interesting, intriguing, or inspiring, and we'll all be better for it and enjoy penturning more.  

Requiring registration to view posts is pointless.  It is easy to register (and should stay that way), and as others have pointed out, there are 1000's of people who have registered without posting which means they went through the registration process for no reason.  That tells me registration is like putting a lock on a 42" chain link fence - You aren't stopping anyone that wants to come in.  Stopping spambots and anonymous flaming is the benefit of registration.

To those who want secret rooms, etc, - you are more than welcome to start your own forum with whatever barriers to entry you want, and you can keep your double secret passwords and _Members Only_ jackets.  My guess is it will flop, and if it does't, more power to you.  Something like that is against the spirit of this forum.

To those who need to protect their business interests - by all means do so, and keep your newest innovative products to yourself until you've had some time to capitalize on it.  However as it has been pointed out many times, once you go to one show/store/gallery, your design is public knowledge so share it with us eventually.  If you don't want to share your pricing, costs, income, then don't, but don't chastise those who do or want to discuuss it.

To those of you who post your creations - Thanks for the inspiration.
To those of you who answer the same dumb newbie questions over and over - Thanks for the help.  
To those who have shared kind words - Thanks for the welcome.


----------



## Hayseedboy

I agree that not all should be available.  What is the reason to become a member otherwise?  To ask a question?  Lots of my questions have been answered by lurking around and reading.  

Don't give the milk away 
lr


----------



## RussFairfield

It seems to me that restricting membership would defeat the whole purpose of the IAP site. This site was founded to educate and share pencrafting. Has that changed? How can we educate if we start locking the gates?

Why would anyone not want to publish pictures of their pens?  The secrets we keep are not the final product, but how we made it.  Showing the pen doesn't give away the techniques we use to get there. Whether or not we share those techniques is a personal matter. 

It also seems to me that any pen maker worth their salt would see someone copying their ideas as a challenge to stay ahead of the competition and come up with new ideas to challenge the competition. That's how things improve. If it weren't for people doing that, we would all still be making B2B SlimLines.


----------



## leehljp

Russ is the king of common sense! And there are a few others here like that. I appreciate his view point VERY much.


----------



## Poppy

> _Originally posted by leehljp_
> 
> Russ is the king of common sense! And there are a few others here like that. I appreciate his view point VERY much.



No argument on that statement comming from this corner.


----------



## karlkuehn

> _Originally posted by PR_Princess_
> 
> ...Nevertheless, after four years of rapid growth, a watershed has been reached. Many turners here are at or beyond a jumping off point in the art. It would be unfair to continue ask them to contribute everything they know to the general public, or admonish them for not doing so...



I really like what Dawn has to say, and I think it's a great point. When we get so good at pen turning that we start coming up with truly unique ideas, there's not a thing wrong with keeping those intellectual properties to yourself. That's a privilege of being a master, the right to protect your investment in your art.

For those masters who choose to be very open and forthcoming about their secrets, everyone appreciates it. For those that don't feel as comfortable sharing, everyone should respect that.

Daniel also had an interesting idea back on page two to sort of set up a time stamp patent library. If someone thinks that they have/had an original idea, 'register' it with a link to the associated thread, which will have a date. If anyone disputes, let's see the link to the earlier thread. Something like this would probably be policed quite handily by the members, and since the original point of this thread was to circumvent blatant thievery, I think this would at least get the word out in the community, and give someone whose ideas were stolen (from THIS forum) some basis for their claims. 

I don't know how much this would curb the lurkers from stealing ideas and never registering here, but still making the pens and selling at shows, though. I guess anyone could say that they've been making that design for years, but never posted it, or whatever. Yargh.

You know what? My brain hurts. This is a very complex issue, I don't have a good answer, but I do know that it's a real concern. I think that if I came up with an idea, knew it was mine-all-mine, and then saw some knucklehead passing off copies of it at a show, I'd be real hard pressed not to walk up and feed him those pens. I'd be real upset about something like that, but only if I was 110% sure that it was my original idea.

There have been many people who have said the same thing I feel, which sums up to, "if someone steals your widget design, build a better widget". Anyone innovative enough to create something totally unique will surely have the gumption to outperform the wannabes, but it still sticks it in and breaks it off.

I think I'm gonna go learn how to crochet. [xx(]


----------



## maxwell_smart007

I think I'm about to have one of those Doc-Oprah moments!!  

I hope everyone's taking this discussion in the light it was intended - to make the IAP a better place.  I hope no one has hard feelings if anyone says something that differs from their viewpoint.  

This forum is a wonderful community that I find extremely interesting, entertaining, and stimulating.  I never would have made a pen if I didn't visit here! I don't want to offend anyone by suggesting that they should share anything they don't want to share - truly, I don't.  All I want is to ensure that the IAP is constantly striving to make the newer turners, and the experienced turners, better!  The way that we do this is to share.   

I don't know if I was clear before, but I don't want people to give away their secrets if they don't want to - I don't understand the nuances and subtleties of markets and protecting your products...but given the discussion that has ensued, I think I now understand that those of you who make your living might have a lot to lose by giving away 'trade secrets'.  All I ask is that you keep helping those of us who aren't at your level, by giving us encouragement, praise (when we deserve it, constructive criticism when we don't), and patience!  

At this point in my turning education, what is most rewarding to me is seeing finished products.  I'm such a novice, I can't even segment with any success!  But I really do like to see some of the great creations that are made here, and hope that they will inspire me to become better!  If you gave me a 'recipe', I wouldn't follow it exactly anyway, but that's just my style...When I talk about my fear that people will stop sharing, I don't mean that they will stop sharing their greatest secrets - I'm worried that people will stop sharing altogether.

But my greatest fear is that someone will misconstrue what I was saying, and hold me in ill will.  I'm not asking you to 'give away the farm'...I just want to make sure people keep participating, and keep showing their pens...because once we stop sharing, it could easily become a slippery slope....

So again, I hope I haven't offended anyone in the course of this discussion.  The IAP is a close-knit community, and a very welcoming one...let's keep it this way!  

Andrew


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## DocStram

IAP was built on the premise of creating a supportive learning environment, a community of learners. 

I don't belong to an exclusive country club ..... or any country club for that matter .... and, I wouldn't want to see IAP become one. 

Keep her wide open.


----------



## rmelton

I vote no. 
As for as someone seeing what you pay for a pen kit, you are not selling a kit you are selling a custom one of a kind pen. 
Had a man see a arrow pen I made ask how much I was asking for it told he $45, then wanted to know how much it cost to make, handed he a kit and an arrow and said that will be $10 ask me how to put it together told him that would be another $35.


----------



## rherrell

I "lurked" for several months before I joined. If "lurking" wasn't allowed I NEVER would have found penturning.If I never would have found penturning I never would have found this great group of people. Can you see where this is going? Keep 'er open!


----------



## Daniel

aaahhhhhh I can't stand it !!! the guild has been mentioned just once to many times for me.[}]
OK that was supposed to be funny so laugh. In truth I know beyond a doubt to just shut my mouth about the guild. But I can't. for those of you that do not know. I made the only enemies I have among the pen turning community with my views of the guild. I will keep these comments friendly.
The guild was born basically for a desire to have a less cluttered environment for advanced turners to converse. You must see this desire in the light that there alternative was a yahoo group. All conversations where conducted as a single thread. following a topic such as this one was nearly impossible. from that desire grew the guild that you see today. This group was also born during that same period of time, and I believe for some of the same reasons, A more effective place to share ideas. In the time I have been a member of this group I have seen the time it takes a new turner to improve there work has drastically reduced. Ideas that time and time again failed to develop on the yahoo group where tackled in a very short time here. Like home stabilization of wood, Casting our own acrylics, Several different methods of CA finishing, mandrel less turning, several member made products or tools, group buys have gone through the roof. Yahoo had one on going group buy and it was dying off. Segmentation until this group was largely limited to stripes or bands. I can go on and on. I have seen this group put pen turning advancement in the fast lane. Not only do we share ideas, but those ideas are recorded in such a way that they can be found by others at a much later date. this allows an idea that might have gotten lost in the mist of time to be renewed with a fresh mind and fresh interest. 
In the end the guild began on the Idea that it would be the best pen turners, advancing the art of pen turning. I am not sure there has ever been an advancement come from the guild.
I have seen several ideas that it's members developed in the community in general get taken there. What I do see all the time is that organizing the melting pot of pen turners in general has.


----------



## Ron Mc

WOW....Daniel great to see your post.
I would like to comment on a couple phrases if I may.

"Segmentation until this group was largely limited to stripes or bands." I totally disagree with this statement. Here is why.
Segmentation of pens has been around for a long long time. I remember seeing segmented pens on the Yahoo group that amazed me. What I saw on the Yahoo group is what pushed me to try it.

"I am not sure there has ever been an advancement come from the guild."
This is amazingly not true. There are some amazing pens that are new developments that come out of the Guild members that are never seen.
I was given a pen that was created by two members that is absolutely amazing....they have developed techniques that I had not seen before I held this pen in my hand.

Yes I am a member of the Guild and honestly I am not trying to defend it or the Yahoo group. I am just stating my opinion as you have.

Thus we can stay friends!


----------



## wdcav1952

Ron,

You and I have disagreed in the past, and may well do so again.  This time you and I are in perfect agreement.  I likely will never be a member of the PMG, but I also will never choose to denigrate the PMG because I cannot achieve membership.  You showed amazing restraint in your most dignified posting and I salute you for that.


----------



## maxwell_smart007

Good to see you're ok, Cav!  YOu hadn't posted in a few hours - We were worried about you!


----------



## jwoodwright

I started turning pens in 1998.  Mike Cripps 1996 Book "Turning Pens and Desk Accessories" was my first book.  Very little info out there.  There was the Internet and some articles by Russ Fairfield, Richard Kleinhenz and others.  Then Penn state had the Pen Crafter, a 4-6 page publication, available quarterly.  Then Kip and Rex's book Turning Pens and Pencils.  Randy Smith had an article on acrylics and Corian in early 2000.  
Being in Alaska, was charged extra (Alaska, Puerto Rico, Virgin Islands, Hawaii and Guam) for shipping and handling, then forced to use snail mail as UPS and Fed Ex only offered Next Day.  USPS doesn't ship Hazardous Materials; so, couldn't get all the neat liquid finishes.  Pen state even had a dipping one that was crystal clear and hard.
So, back to Internet and Russ Fairfield's site and made his "Friction Polish" as I was tired of Hut Sticks.  Then Hut produced a book on Pen making.  Continued pen turning and joined the Yahoo Penturners in 2003.  Come 2004, heard of a new site, lurked and visited and finally joined in 2004. Then Barry Gross's Books were added to my library.
Today, the amount of pen making information is huge.  Just about all the Woodworking Magazines have done articles on pen making.

When I joined, everyone shared and was ready and willing to help anyone.  Always a big hello and welcome.  We had a calm group and we had some real hot heads.  Jeff was forced to let some go.  This was sad, as some of those who left had great ideas and were true artists.  Hot heads don't add any value to a group and I understand that letting them go wasn't a easy choice.
I've learned a lot since then and my pens have vastly improved.  Looking at the pictures, I see I'm not the only one to improve.  We have so many talented artists.  Everyone has something to add and that too makes us strong.  This is still one big friendly group where the help is only a question away.  If you have a process that is a money maker, I say go for it.  If you want to share, then do so.  We need to promote pen turning.  If you make money, that's up to you and the IRS.  
We still have the best group of people, just look at prayers needed or help needed.  Willing to help anyone, sight unseen.  Just knowing that someone, somewhere is worst off than you are.  This is what makes a strong group, Members taking care of Members.  This is why I'm proud to be a Member.

I'm done, I know, I was done before I started...


----------



## CrazyBear

In the beginning I would have voted to close at least part of the site to the general public. BUT after reading this thread carefully I realise we cant and have voted no.

Why
Because we have 6 pages of reasoned agrgument from both sides of the fence and no one has fallen out over it. The only reason we have that is because we are comfortable enough with each other( even though many of us are complete strangers) to say what we think and most importantly to LISTEN to what others have to offer.


This is a great site (ONE of two that I visit EVERY DAY) where I have learned a huge amount in a short space of time. That information was freely given and to be honest it has changed me a little. I am more helpfull in my attitude these days.

Lets all agree to Keep the site as it is. To those who are being inovative, this is a great place to show your work. where better to find people who can appreciate what you do, I do not believe that ANY member here would steal another members design and claim it as their own. We cant acount for those outside who are not yet members. Keep the secret but do show us your work, Thats why you created it in the first place


----------



## RichAldrich

I read the forum for months prior to joining.  I was reviewing older postings that had pretty much been hashed out.  I did not feel comfortable posting at that point.  I wanted to achieve some familiarity with the forum.  I have been turning about four years and do mostly pens.  I was working a project that I needed help with so I had to join and ask a question.  I was nervous about how some would respond to it.  My question was received favorably and everyone was great that responded.


----------



## Daniel

Ron, Thanks, As I said I am not sure, and I really ment that. I am not in a position to know, or do I pay enough attention to the guild to know. The point i was trying to make was that that the most advanced turners isolating themsleves may, and I repeat may not be the best way to go about achieving advancment. there are two views I see to look at that question. one from the view of the yahoo group and it's format. I don't think you and I could hold this conversation very well there. So yes a side group was very beneficial. in comparison to a group with this format where seperate conversations are going on all the time, not so much. of course the guild may have the issue of stolen ideas licked as well. As far as thing like segmentation. I did not mean to say it did not happen on the yahoo group. I just never saw it on the scale that I can see it here. I suspect partially due to inability to even find it. 
Since this thread is about wether the doors should be closed.
What was the impact of the guild, on the yahoo group? last I checked the yahoo group is nearly abandoned. Is that because of groups like this one? which I basically see as simply user friendlier. or as a result that the best of the best isolated themselves and you really cannot find new member help there. I know I stopped going there when it became the norm to practically flame a new member for asking the same old new member questions. I was told by every one of the original members of the guild, that they fully intended to continue to participate in the general group. It has been so long since I have seen a post from some of them, I wonder if they are still even turning pens. So what is the cost and benefit of isolating the best talent? That really could be the not so obvious question in this thread.


----------



## Fangar

Without reading back through everything... I would say no.  You will lose new folks that would decide to register once they saw the great content here.  You would also gain tons of folks that register and then are never to be seen of again.  

Cheers,

Fangar


----------



## ed4copies

Hey, Fangar's back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Nice to see you!!!


----------



## Mudder

> _Originally posted by jeff_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Originally posted by ctwxlvr_
> 
> BUT, some content should not require membership.
> 
> 
> 
> Such as?
> 
> My motivation is to possibly address the issues raised in  this topic. If we get too carried away on not sharing, we'll end up just talking in vague generalities and I'm not sure that we can continue to push the state of the art as we have.
Click to expand...


The only area I would suggest that we close to non-members is "Casual Conversation". It seems that the majority of "flamefests" happen there and it does not show our best.


----------



## arioux

I just did a google on wood pen.  Found hundreds of site talking about wood pen or selling them.  On top of the list, Woodpenpro, with acces to anyone to the kit price.  Should we ask him to make his site private because we don't want people to find out about our profit margin?.  Better let them see hour marketing section and see what' involved with pen making beside the kit cost. There were three reseller on the first page.  10' and 10's of articles on pen making on the following pages.
Geee...what do we have to hide .  Professionnal secrets?  If you want to share do it, if you don't want well don't period.  What's next, ask Jeff to invest in a $100,000 firewall to protect your idea?

Go back and read the site mission, that is what brought me to this site and probably many more actual or to be penturners. 
You don't fit in that mission? well........... It would be to Jeff to change it but the words "share experiences, and promote the art of penturning" should disapear. 

Alfred


----------



## Ron Mc

Daniel,
I understand your point completely. I have always been a huge fan of the Yahoo group but I think what has happened is that the format makes it more difficult to post than other forums.
I think I'll start posting there as well as the IAP, TPS, and PMG to see if I can't liven it up.


----------



## Firefyter-emt

Even I don't have time to read thru all of this, but my thoughts is that I think a partialy open one with member only sections is a great way to go.  It would be ncie to be able to talk about things where buyers can not see it. Some people only look at "wow, he only paid $2.00 for that kit, I am getting ripped off" and not about the time and cost it takes to create a pen.


----------



## barb03

I don't post much mainly because I've only made about 30 pens (work too much) and don't feel I have the experience to post anything.  I did come to this site and read a few things before I joined and don't think it should be strickly members only.  Since I am teaching myself how to make pens I love this site when I have a question I can always find an answer here.  You guys are all great!  I could understand if the pricing, kits and group buys were members only though.


----------



## palmermethod

I am a paying member of several non-penturning sites. One in particular, requires a paid membership to access their private for sale, wanted or trade ads. All other info is free. I think that is a fair bargain since paying members may offer better deals or trades to fellow members instead of a non-member buying something cheap and selling it on Ebay.

On the other hand, one of the oldest memberships I have is with the Modern Library collectors group, www.modernlib.com. They have just eliminated memberships altogether and are relying on PayPal contributions. And I do contribute what I can to them and others but many sites can't "keep the lights on" on contribs alone.

It's a hard world and the web is being taken over by huge commercial interests. Like Ebay. 

I like the feeling of being part of a private group. Where ideas can be shared and business conducted without my name showing up in a paper or 60 minutes. An exaggeration but I'm not paranoid for nothing!

I'll go along with the group but open membership, on all areas, does tend to limit creative(?) conversation.

Love to you all............


----------



## jwoodwright

I owe an apology, when I said "hotheads", I wasn't grouping all those who left or where forced to leave.

We did have some members who "stirred the pot" just because they could.  Cozee comes to mind.  Then we had members who refused to be labeled or insulted.  Eaglesc comes to mind.


----------



## sbell111

One problem with only allowing members to have access to the site is that it is more difficult than it appears to become a member.  Yesterday morning, I attempted to sign up, but I never received my confirmation email.  Truth be told, I have no idea if this post is even going to take because of that.

The problem that I have with requiring a certain number of posts before a person can view 'special' areas of the site is that it rewards pointless posts.

Personally, I've never turned a pen.  Therefore, I'm not going to be able to post my awesome accomplishments.  My wife and her dad do the pen turning.

They got into this game because her dad, who was rounding out his seventies, began to be inactive.  Our fear was that unless we got him into something that he enjoyed doing, we would lose him.  She got him to take a penturning class at Woodcraft with her and he enjoyed it; so they have been making pens.  They haven't been making fancy pens like many of you are, but their pens are often very nice.

My part of it is supply-side.  I source wood and pen kits for them, stabilize the unstable, and make PR blanks.  While I have p0ut to good use some of the things that I've read on these forums, mostly this information merely tweaked my previous processes, rather than revolutionized it.  The perfect example of this is vacuum stabilization.  I had been doing it in a pickle jar for a long time when my jar's lid's seal went bad.  I noticed here that people were using paint pots for this, so I bought one and converted it to use.  Once you think 'paint pot', you don't really need specific instuctions to make it work.

Regarding 'stolen ideas', if a person is concerned about that, they shouldn't post their work online.  Personally, if I see that someone has made a cool pen, I'm going to think about how we could make something similar.  If I figure it out and Cathy can make it, we'll sell the thing and not feel bad about it.

You see, I don't consider us to be in direct competition with any of the other participants on this site.  If we go to a big show and notice that someone is selling a pen that we don't have or has a popular wood that we don't, I'm going to suggest to Cathy they we get on that bandwagon and I'm not going to feel a darn bit bad about it and I would totally expect anyone else to do the exact same thing.

That's my rambling position.  I wonder if it will post.


----------



## GaryMGg

> ... "... he only paid $2.00 for that kit, I am getting ripped off"....



This and similar arguments have been offered on numerous accounts and I personally believe it's a straw man.

Here's a pen that uses a $6.00 kit: Darryl's Segmentation
Knowing the effort involved in making that pen, I'd put a retail value of $300 on it.

IF I made it, would I be bothered if a potential customer knew I had roughly $6.00 worth of hardware in this $300 pen? I couldn't care less.  The kit is a vehicle to carry the workmanship. If they don't want it because it's `a rippoff', they can go elsewhere.
Good luck to them. 

In the scenario above, I stated the value of the actual kit used but it's a minor item compared to the overall value of the pen. If the 6 bucks throws you for a loop, imagine it's a $25.00 kit; the relative value of the kit compared to the overall value of the pen is negligible. It's not the kit's cost that matters when we're talking about craftsmanship.

*BTW, there are forums on this site that ARE only open to members.* [:0]
If you haven't been through at least one of them, you've missed a tremendous learning experience. [8D]


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## RogerGarrett

I haven't taken time to read all the pages of opinions here - so my viewpoint may already have been represented by someone [)] but here goes:

I joined the IAP after reading a great deal of the forum over a period of many days.  I typically do not join groups unless I can see what has been going on in the group by freely reading the content.  In fact, while I am a member of a very similar Pen Group online [}] I am unable to access much of the information if I don't sign in.  As a result, I very rarely use that webiste.  Some of you are members there as well.

I like the IAP just the way it is!

Best,
Roger Garrett


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## drawknife

Poll question as stated is whether the entire discussion forum should be members only, I think that should be a no. Being a fairly new member that strikes me as sort of elitist. Had it been that way when I ran across it in Google I would have probably passed on it. 

Daniel's comments intrigue me somewhat, I might be the only one that didn't know there was a group that had seperated itself from the rest of us, if thats how it works.


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## W3DRM

Wow, this question has certainly generated lots of discussion! As a very new member (I joined in Oct of 2007) I would like to say that I have mostly lurked on this site after joining. I wanted to see what the group was about and whether it appealed to my needs. I have gleaned much more information from this forum than I have given. This is a friendly forum and provides its members quick responses to their questions. The sharing of ideas is phenomenal!

I voted NO on making this a members-only forum. To me it would diminish the value of the forum and most likely make others look elsewhere. That would be a lose lose situation in my mind. I am a member of another woodworking forum that just recently posed the same question about limiting viewing and posting to members-only. The question was hotly debated but eventually the owners of the forum decided to leave it alone.

I wonder how many lurkers grab the links of the members posting here to see what pens they are making and then  eventually make a purchase. For those of you who sell on-line, do any of you ask your customers where they found your website link? You might be surprised to find that some of them were just lurkers on this forum.

There has also been some discussion in this thread regarding the PMG and it's member-only status. Personally, that becomes a challenge to me to learn the techniques and to develop my own technical skills to a higher level so I can one day submit my "masterpiece" to the Guild for their review and hopefully their acceptance. Basically, it's up to me to make the decision to grow in my knowledge of pen making. If I choose not to then I can only blame myself for not being able to join the elite group in the PMG.


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## gregorymatherly

I think the Forum should be open to ALL persons who have a comment or suggestion, to exclude anyone from the making an important opinion on Pen making might deprive the rest of us of a valuable suggestion a newcomer might have who has not signed up yet. We should welcome everyone.


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## hunter-27

I think some should be available but not ALL


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## rhe221

By the Gods...    all this talk of snobbery and arrogance and greed. If Human society hadn't made it this far without the sharing of ideas we would still be in the dark ages after the fall of the greater Roman Empire caused the secrets of concrete to be forgotten for 100s of years. 

It is the sharing of ideas and art that has caused the great cultures of the world to thrive and grow in greatness and beauty.  1000s of years of free enterprise, open training with the sharing of knowledge and expertise, be it in idea based theory or hands on showing of how to do something of better quality or the skill of making something with even more beauty would not have allwed us today to enjoy the masterpieces of wood, stone, metal and glass that infests the world over for us to draw inspiration from.

Keep things free and open for all to see and learn from, and let whose whi hide their secrets be the Great Masters they so claim themselves to be. So what if they scoff at people "borrowing" ideas. Michealangelo or Donetello today would find Great joy in the fact that their art has inspired generations of greatness since they made the creations they did. If sertain people want to hide their best work, then let then, for there is a great chance anyhow that somone has alreat used that technique in another art form or wood craft somwhere else and others are seeing it there. History will judge them as what they choose to let the world see them as, untill they decide to make history for themselves amongst their peers.

Keep it open to all. Share beauty knowledge and let the world grow stronger.


----------



## RonInSpringTX

Maybe I shouldn't throw my 2 cents in 'cuz I've only been a member for a few months, only been a turner for 3 yrs, but have been a woodworker for 25+ yrs. I don't think this site should be restricted in any way.  I know I've not made that many posts but still, the knowledge I've learned has been good, not something that should be "members only".  If someone wanted to know how I finished a pen, or a set of shelves, or an entertainment center with, I'd tell them.  I'd tell them how I made it, i.e.cut it, sanded it, put it together, & finished it, the time it took and ALL the SETBACKS that were involved.  This would, (I hope), make that customer/person appreciative of the effort & would gladly pay my price. (which many have done) I look to this site on knowledge on turning pens. Maybe there's a different site for bowls, thought about starting that. Anywho...as far as the "stealing" or stuff being copyrighted or patented, gimme a break!!! This is a CRAFT & you can't get a patent on a craft!!!  My wife makes those dolls that you stand up in the corner, we call them "Pouty Babies" (most relate to "Time Out" Babies, whatever) We've had several people ask if we could make them in an Astros uniform, or Rockets or whatever. My wife can do anything on a sewing machine, but she can't do that, because they are copyrighted! If the customer buys the infant sportswear then, sure, she'll make it.  Same thing on here!!  I've wanted to maybe look into casting Astros pen clips/tops or whatever but I can't!!! Nobody on here is "stealing" a design for a pen/whatever. More power to them if they download that pic/whatever....it's up to them to make it. I designed a kitchen paper towel/ kitchen towel rack with stained/swirled glass that catches the sun in spring/summer months. What do I want for that??  ZERO!!!  IT'S A CRAFT!!!!!!!QUIT WHINING!!!!!

okay, I'll get off my soapbox now!!!
thanx all,  Ronnie


----------



## TellicoTurning

Jeff,
I didn't read all 7 pages on this topic, but enough I think to suggest maybe limit posting to members... i.e., you can read, but to post you have to register.  I run into this on other forums I visit.


----------



## Jarheaded

Jeff,
 I sat and read this forum for about a year before I decided to join. If I had to join before I could see what it was about, I would have moved on to the next forum site. I also have several kids that are learning how to make sawdust in my shop and they read a lot of the posts and come in with questions about things that they want to learn to do.
Thanks, Johnnie


----------



## dweir

I am still a noob to this board, but here is my .02  I think that some sections should be closed to non-members, but the general forums should be read-only and require one to sign up before posting.  I used to run a BBS back in the early 90's and was a Fido mail hub/tosser for a large part of Central Florida.  I used to limit access (time) for non-members, more time for members, and even more time to ones that "contributed" either money or shareware files..
JMHO.

Dave


----------



## JD4x4

Hi all. I'm a brand new member, and I feel a bit bad about joining really, because I've yet to make my first pen (but I've got the supplies.. start in a few days!!), and therefor can't actually call myself a penturner.. but here's my p.o.v. and why I voted yes:

I don't care for 'elite' people, groups or orgs, and hate businesses that have a "closed" product market & pipeline. But at the same time I understand that there are things that should be, well, regulated for lack of a better word. There are some who feel that in today's world market there are enough 'customers' for any amount of vendors. I know this from my 20 years with automotive manufacturers as I have heard it from within oddly enough! I'm not so sure I agree with that line of thought completely though, but generally any product market is likely to be larger than most would imagine. I worked for a self-named "niche" market vehicle manufacturer who also had a very strong customer base that were enthusiasts, and our employees were also product "zealots". I find hand-crafted pens a similar subject in a lot of ways. Having said that, I think it's necessary to have a philosophy that promotes both a product and a craft, and encourages enthusiasm for the product and the craft, and protects "market stature" as well as livelihoods that depend on it.

Whew- Meaning I joined because I appreciated the artistic and the technical aspects of pen making and wanted to learn more because I think I'm going to LOVE doing this, but I am also looking for income and wanted to find and share resources & techniques because if I'm any good at it I currently need $$!. Lastly, I'm also aware of how the internet can change things for both good as well as bad.

In my mind, I'm looking for a site that promotes the art & craft, but also protects the professional who thinks of it as an art & a craft (not "e-Bay for pens"). I'd like to see two sites in one- a public as well as a somewhat private section. There should be some "hoops to jump through" to learn/discuss advanced techniques of an artistic & production nature, and probably for sharing of volume suppliers, etc.  My opinion.


----------



## ransom

OK, I just joined this forum so I could post questions.  I also participate in othe Forums unrelated to this one so I am not new to this environment.

Actually it sounds to me like there are a bunch of elitists here who have decided they don't want to communicate with the unwashed masses.  I was hoping I would be able to get some friendly advice on making pens.  I clearly am wrong.

Look it's just making pens folks, this is not some earth shattering theory that should not be shared.

too bad.

I'm outa here and I'm sure you're glad you don't have to lower yourselves to my lowly level.


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## Proud_Poppa_of_2

Clifford -

I think if you had looked through the forums more before posting, you would have seen that we're all about sharing information without regard to the experience level of the person in need.  You also would have seen by the comments in this particular thread and from the results of the poll that spawned this thread that the majority of us are in favor of keeping the forums public.

If you think this isn't true, post a question and see what kind of response you get.  Better yet, take time to introudce yourself to us in the "Introductions" forum and see what kind of a reception you get.  This is a community and we treat each other as such.  You can choose to be a part of our community, or you can choose just to pass through town.  The choice is yours. But, please be fair and refrain from judging us until you truly get to know us.


----------



## alphageek

Wow... All in all Cliffords reaction surprises me.   Anyone "familiar" with msg boards, and a director level position at work should know that there is a variety of people - and everyone has there own opinions.

However, I have to say - I havn't been here and for him to say there is elitists here that don't help - nothing can be further from the truth.  This is by far the best board I've been on (and the only one where I've won something 'for nothing').   The whole board is viewable w/o even creating an account.  Even this thread wasn't about elitism, it was about protecting things from being stolen.

Now that i'm off my salt box - I hope Clifford isn't "otta here".. I think he'll find things are way friendlier than he thinks.  And just to say it again - THANKS again to all who have helped me move my hobby along.


----------



## OKLAHOMAN

Clifford have you read any other threads on this forum? Today alone there were over 30 replys to question from new members,had a member from England  show how to make a closed end mandrel.You called us a bunch of elitists boy are you off base.For a guy who spent 27years with IBM and now works for the school system I'm sure glad your not teaching our children,we sure don't need our kids learning to jump to conclusions without merit.You really needed to read all the different  forums here before insulting most of us with words like ELITISTS,UNWASHED MASSES....Come to think of it yep I'm an Elitists if it that means that I read into a post such as yours as someone who ............never mind have a good life.






you 



> _Originally posted by ransom_
> 
> OK, I just joined this forum so I could post questions.  I also participate in othe Forums unrelated to this one so I am not new to this environment.
> 
> Actually it sounds to me like there are a bunch of elitists here who have decided they don't want to communicate with the unwashed masses.  I was hoping I would be able to get some friendly advice on making pens.  I clearly am wrong.
> 
> Look it's just making pens folks, this is not some earth shattering theory that should not be shared.
> 
> too bad.
> 
> I'm outa here and I'm sure you're glad you don't have to lower yourselves to my lowly level.


----------



## its_virgil

Sounds to me like he is trolling....don't take the bait!
Do a good turn daily!
Don


> _Originally posted by ransom_
> 
> OK, I just joined this forum so I could post questions.  I also participate in othe Forums unrelated to this one so I am not new to this environment.
> 
> Actually it sounds to me like there are a bunch of elitists here who have decided they don't want to communicate with the unwashed masses.  I was hoping I would be able to get some friendly advice on making pens.  I clearly am wrong.
> 
> Look it's just making pens folks, this is not some earth shattering theory that should not be shared.
> 
> too bad.
> 
> I'm outa here and I'm sure you're glad you don't have to lower yourselves to my lowly level.


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## Daniel

Hey Folks, it is pretty obvious to anyone that spends even a little time around here that Clifford is way off base. I just don't want to see anyone get really bent over a comment that has nothing to do with reality. Discussing issues that effect long time penturners with more invested in the craft is just as much support as helping the new turner.


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## Poppy

I think Don hit the nail squarely on the head.




> _Originally posted by its_virgil_
> 
> Sounds to me like he is trolling....don't take the bait!
> Do a good turn daily!
> Don


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## RonInSpringTX

hey Clifford, this blog didn't start out talking about your subject, but it sure has started too!! You CAN get ANY info you want on here, for free!!!  If someone doesn't know the answer to your problem, chances are they will find it, or already had it & post a link, or whatever!!!What do you need help with??? Beside's your attitude towards the site?? I'm about to ask a question in a new post, can't wait for the help I get for that. Like the Pittsburgh Pirates in the 70's....& Sister Sledge said...   
"We are family...all of my brothers & me"   or whatever... lol. (I'm an Astros fan anyway!!)  Clifford, you are more than welcome, believe me, if you're just starting, you'll need our advice!!!!!


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## boxxmaker

I believe forums should be open to anyone,but they would have to join before being able to post or get into certain sites.As for stealing ideas,if somebody wants to steal an idea,they will figure out a way to do it.


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## goose

i just join the forum,an belong to many hunting forum's an a call making forum..
i voted no an here is why.artist an there creativeity should be shared...idea's are like a small snow ball on the side of a mountain.as it goes down hill it grow's.
as it collect's more snow.

it's great to share knowledge with other's an if someone asked me the how to's i'd help them.
an they will either find a better or easier way,an share the knowledge with other's.

see-ya
steve


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## igran7

I'm sorry, but I really don't understand why this is an issue.  Why such opposition & resistance to becoming a member. If someone is interested in pen turning and wants information regarding the process, then they should create a user profile and be done with it.  It doesn't cost anything, there aren't any stipulations or obligations imposed.  If someone wants to puruse the pages of IAP they should be a member.  I was a member for two years before I posted any pictures or participated in any discussion.  I was not harmed in the process, nor did ANY member pressure me to participate. This is a place where like minds can gather to share like ideas with one another, if someone is not interested in the ideas, then this isn't the association for them, if they are interested then join.  Simple as that.


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## PaulStroik

I am a new member to this forum. Since this was the first thread since joining I decided to immediately jump in and vote. I voted NO and here is my reason. I have been considering joining the Turning Community for some time but decided to do some research first to determine if I would really enjoy this hobby. This site was one of several I have been watching for information  on Turning as well as members participation and their attitudes. I stay away from sites that are not monitored for SPAM advertising and where members do not get along. Attitude makes or breaks a forum IMO. So far, I have found this site to be very good so I am onboard.


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## rherrell

And we're all glad to have you on board, Paul. Why not go over and introduce yourself, it's painless!


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## medicsteele

Having someone register (for certain forums) should pose no problems. The site itself should remain open to encourage fellow pen makers. The site as it stands is FANTASTIC and as a relatively new pen maker I am continually amazed at the amount of expertise displayed, and also very thankful to all posters. I have just taught my grand daughters, aged 10 and 11 how to turn pens and they visit this site to get ideas. Thanks to all.


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## mbower

I have to agree with Proud_Poppa_of_2.  If I hadn't been able to read the forums before joining, I'm not sure I would have joined.  What reason would we not let people read the forums?


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## redfishsc

Let it all hang out. We're hiding nothing (well, I'm not[:I]). We are here to teach, learn, have fun, and maybe even brag and gloat once in a while.


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## MikeyMike

Hi,

I'm a newbie here. I'm about as net literate as it's possible to be. I'm a novice turner and semi-skilled carpenter. I've read through this thread and have two observations to make:

1. The site is a forum. This is where you attract new blood. For this reason, most areas should be visible to all visitors. Closed forums are a waste of bandwidth. People die, lose interst, move on to other things.... Membership wanes and there's no draw to bring in new blood.

I've seen any number of forum sites and brick and mortar clubs close because they restricted themselves to an early grave. You can stay private and secretive, but it's not good practice. The net is for information sharing. After all, how are you going to demonstrate your arcane knowledge of tools, wood, and turning? How are you going to entice the next wave of pen turners to take over the reins when you've spun your last chip into the air?


2. There are valid concerns amongst those members who wish to discuss business practices and procedures. For that reason, they desire privacy.

Snitz Forums support private/invisible forum areas. Perhaps if the business-minded members were provided access to an area to discuss business stuff, everyone could be satisfied. 




You hardcore turners have an institutional responsibility to help teach youngsters and unskilled wannabe turners. Not everyone is fortunate enough to live near a club full of turners, let alone a single other turner. The closest club to me is a 90 minute drive (provided traffic is light). I rely on the various woodworking forums to learn new techniques and get ideas for my own projects.

Just my two cents.


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## Proud_Poppa_of_2

Here, here, MikeyMike.  I like your signature line, too.


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## jwoodwright

It's amazing how this has grown.  Yes, I was a "lurker" before I joined.    I've seen great growth and the techniques!  

CA for finish!  Around 2005 that idea was approached and then Don Ward did a tutorial in 2006.  

Eagle and his exotic inlays!  

YoYo Spin and his great turnings and o-rings and beads at the finger grip.  Then his inlays and onto his PR.

We even had an elected President, albeit short reign...  Long live Lou...

This site has grown and there are just so many folks that care and share.

My advice, read and learn and join us, we have room for everyone!
Who knows, you may be the person that takes the humble slimline to the next level...


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## Geo in Winnipeg

I'm with MikeyMike.


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## djz9

Having only been a member for the past coupe of months, I am grateful for the information from the other members, and the warm welcome I received when I joined. I really can't think of a thing I would change except, just to protect the people who give the time to do a group buy, I am not sure if anyone has been stuck by someone ordering a quantity, then not following thru after the order is made. If that part were a member only area, it might help. However I am inspired by the talent of the other members here, and I can't wait to get as many ideas as I can get from the members as soon as I get my site up. Can someone copy it, well yes, but if I don't evolve to higher levels then my product will not sell. Everyday I turn, and everyday I read, I find something new on the site, and see something new in the wood I work with. I try to teach my son, that every part of my day is learning new things, and showing the best of what I have to others. I am now 50 and I can say it still works for me, and I hope the same for my 16yr old son. Thanks to all for your help and information, I only wish I had the time in the day to sit and read all of the posts, and respond to every new member as so many of you did to me, but I will try to say welcome as much as I can.  Dave


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## aurrida

i guess the creators of this site originally wanted a forum to share with as many people as possible for a number of reasons.

i believe the accessibility and open door policy has made this the number 1 site for pen turning. we have all cut our teeth here as such and should not forget it. we have all made progress thanks to others hard work. i have personally taken a lot from here, i feel obliged to give something back, and not sneak off and protect my few pieces of 'gold'.

i also believe that those who copy remain one step behind the game and those who innervate forge ahead, and good for them. they have a talent it should be encouraged and supported. the rewards for the industry in general and for this site will benefit us all. its a free market deal with it, ultimately the customer will decide.


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## KKingery

Just my 2 cents worth - when I first found this site, I was impressed by how "open" it was to viewing. It was that total open-ness?, that made me feel welcome, and helped make my decision to join easy.


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## woodchuckcuda

Just joined yesterday. Without the possibility of viewing the contents, I would not have been able to determine how this site would benefit me now, as a novice and hopefully, I could return the favor in the future with what I have learned.

Keep the contents available for all. What does that hurt?


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## TellicoTurning

Jeff,
I didn't read all the posts and replies to your initial question... I've joined a couple of forums that would allow you to see the posts, but not to post unless a member.. I'm sure a lot of turners may well "lurk" and learn without joining... but if they want to contribute to the site or post a comment, should maybe require a membership.. I'm sure I read a lot of threads and posts before I joined.  It's a great site and I think I have "met" a lot of great penmakers here, some in person, some only on-line, but great folks none-the-less.  Thanks for what you do.


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