# Rizheng Information and question (Long)



## Daniel (Dec 9, 2007)

I have spent the last couple of weeks crunching numbers for a Rizheng group buy. Basically I have been trying to nail down a per item price that includes shipping. my problem is that there is a three tier price change going on. 1. for each item ordered the cost of it changes Example: to order 1 slimline it would cost $22.00 to order two they would cost $11.50 each. now that is as extreme of an example as I can get but you get the idea. but even with larger quantities that price quickly varies by 20 cents. 2. they do have a quantity discount to there pricing, at best this is only a few cents and is not really much concern. 3. as an order reaches each half kg weight. the shipping charge relative to each item drops.(sort of) the cost of a slimline if exactly 45 where being ordered would be $1.62 each but if one more is added to the order the price jumps back up to $1.91 ea.
sort of shows why this is taking so long.
I know all this is complicated but please take the time to stay with me.
Basically price from Rizheng is determined by the weight of the total order. What I want to know from the group is should I set prices according to a low total weight (means higher prices but smaller orders can be placed) or a higher weight limit (lower prices but orders will take longer to reach the weight limit) as a frame of reference the tentative orders mannie got just on the forums weighed over 17kg. 
Examples:
Slimline at   1kg weight $1.63 at 3kg $1.40
comfort pen   1kg weight $1.93 at 3kg $1.69
Cigar pen     1kg weight $3.39 at 3kg $2.96
Pen Mill set  1kg weight 11.97 at 3kg 10.38
Acrylic Blank 1kg weight $3.04 at 3kg $2.30
These prices do not include postage or pay pal fees.
If you do not want to post on the forum but think you will participate in the group buys in the future. please e-mail me I will keep any opinions confidential. and all opinions are welcome.

A bit of explaination as to why weight is the determining factor.
due to Rizhengs shipping charges an order that weighs half a kg costs $42.00 per kg in shipping alone. but an order that weighs 1 kg costs only $27.70 per kg. an order that weighs 10 kg costs $14.83 per kg. and the price per kg keeps falling the larger the order gets. keep in mind that a kg weighs about 2 pounds so this compaires to U.S.P.S at being $7.42 per pound from China. the shipping does not look bad if the order is large enough.

Mannie started a group buy but it was aborted due to a price hike from Rizheng. Since then thay have also added more items to there web site. mainly pen parts, there are now 4 styles of stoppers, and a much larger selection of pen mills. I suspect more will be coming.

I asked Rizheng "Are these the same kits that P.S.I. sells". they did not say yes, but they made it clear they where not saying no. what they did say is that they did not want to upset the market for there agents. My translation, yes these are the same kits you buy from P.S.I. and others. there have been comments made on this group that both contradict this as well as support my opinion. I will make no claims as to the quality of any of the items as I have never seen any of them.

Provided there is an adequate response to this post, there will be much more info concerning Rizheng, the quality or lack of there products. and details on just how to structure Bulk Buys from this company.

I have been in contact with Mannie, and at this time we are both interested in still seeing a group buy happen. At this time we are not sure if he will do it, I will do it, or someone alse will step forward. basically I don't want anyone to think that I am walking all over Mannie with this.

well that is more than enough for now. sorry for this being so long. I tried to put it in a nut shell but seems i needed a coconut to do it.


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## Ligget (Dec 9, 2007)

Thanks for sharing Daniel, I had signed up to the forum but it won`t let me login now.


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## Rifleman1776 (Dec 9, 2007)

I have communicated with Rizheng and have found there is a considerable language barrier. The sales rep goes by several, American sounding, names but is the same person. What they offer seems very legit. For me, the downside is that they don't offer the Tn or Rhodium platings. That is all I use anymore.


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## mikemac (Dec 9, 2007)

Judging by the difficulties in getting consistent pricing and shipping quotes, I'm wondering why we would even bother?  Most of us don't have hours/days/weeks to calculate the perfect price vs quantity point to purchase at, (but we all do appreciate you sharing this info..)

I'd rather purchase locally, or order from the US. (I'm in Canada, eh!)

just my 2 cents, worth exactly what you paid for it []


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## Ligget (Dec 10, 2007)

I would rather support our friendly resellers than buy direct, even if it turns out to be more expensive to me!

But I like to keep my ear to the ground with all things penturning.


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## arioux (Dec 10, 2007)

Hi,

Don't want to start a whole discussion about it but here are some of my tough about that company.  

1 - Rizheng started here by spamming everyone they could.

2 - They where ban from this forum once, not sure if they where banned a second time.

3 - They came back with a new site that you have to sing in.  After words, they increase their price.

4 - They shamelessly openly PIRATED this forum, showing no respect for Jeff work.  

5 - Why go to this mess to save .20 to .50 cents a kit that you will sell the same price.  So sell 100 pens to save $50 maximum?  And who sells 100 pens fast enough to make the saving worth, unless you put .20 in a jar each time you sell one and save it for the end.

6 - We are actually asking our suppliers to support us in the Birthday contest with gift and giveaway but we are ready to bypass them on the first occasion just to save a few pennies?

7 - I stick with our friend here in Canada and US.  They support us, help us and are near when we need them.

8 - They don't carry rodhium and Ti so what they sell to PSI is their "funline, a low end plating kit.  Probably the new "Apprentice line" from CSU too.

9 - Absolutely what their kit:  Woodnwhimsies sells them for $1.49 in 100 count any plating and they are good persons. 

Just my .02 cents and i stick to it

Alfred


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## Gary Max (Dec 10, 2007)

Plus it's just bad business-------what about the folks who donate and help keep this site open----are you wanting to run them off to save a penny.
I would really would of thought that you had more respect for this site.You think your helping the little guy out------bull they are nothing less than con men.
If you want to buy from them----hey go to ebay.
This will be my only post about this-----it's in bad taste to even respond.


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## IPD_Mrs (Dec 10, 2007)

Why bother?  I don't understand why spend all of this time and effort, when you have a great supplier he in the center of the country now for about the same price.  I think everyone should look at the responses here and consider what has transpired.  Read Alfreds post, three times if you need it to sink in.

You know it is one thing to have a product manufactered overseas due to cost, especially with OSHA and EPA, but it is another thing to completely bypass the US distributors to save a penny or two.


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## airrat (Dec 10, 2007)

I ended up putting them on my blocked email list.  After getting a couple emails begging me to post here on how they really are good people, I just got a bad feeling.   After all that they have done I would be worried about ordering from them, on their quality control and quality of product.   

I say I will probably stick with the known suppliers here.  I have received good service and for the most part good quality, plus the support for the web site.


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## maxwell_smart007 (Dec 10, 2007)

Alfred's post really summed it up for me.  I was initially interested in ordering from them, but even if their prices were slashed in half, I wouldn't do so now.  

I wouldn't have written at all, but I wanted to indicate that you might be better off, Daniel, in not wasting your time crunching numbers.  I think that most of us who were initially interested in a group buy have soured on the idea...I can't speak for everyone of course, but that's the impression I'm getting...

Just wanted to make sure you're not doing all that work in vain!  

Andrew


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## Daniel (Dec 10, 2007)

Gary,
 there is no need to attack me. as for supporting this site I am one of those that do. as well as Mannie. I started the CA Bulk Buy that is a program that has always supported this site. Your opinions about this bulk buy are welcome. Your comments directed at me personally are not.



> _Originally posted by Gary Max_
> 
> Plus it's just bad business-------what about the folks who donate and help keep this site open----are you wanting to run them off to save a penny.
> I would really would of thought that you had more respect for this site.You think your helping the little guy out------bull they are nothing less than con men.
> ...


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## airrat (Dec 10, 2007)

I agree, no one should attack Daniel for offering it and crunching the numbers.   He has done a lot for the IAP and his intentions here are for the good of the members as well.  Mannie has continued to offer the IAP members benifits and should be thanked as well.

I bet if the company had not done everything they did and were honest with us, more people would be up for a group buy.

Daniel thanks for all the thought you have put into this and for even thinking of taking on the task of dealing with them.  Manny you too, I appreciate both of your efforts.


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## Daniel (Dec 12, 2007)

Thanks for the replies folks. I think I know more about what you think of Rizheng than I do about this question I was asking, but so be it. I have one thing I want to point out.
I started the CA Group Buy. and had I only had the penturning community to do it, it would never have happened.
I found groups all over that had use for it to get enough participation. As far as I know pen turners alone have kept it going since. Responce to that first group buy was identical to this. I don't see the the posability of doing the same thing with this group buy as I did with the CA. In addition to this I notice a strong tendancy of this group to reject anything new. Different ideas about most anything are met with the same responce "Why would you want to do that?"
I am not trying to be insulting but I remember this group as the place that home stabalization was finally figured out. After years of the Yahoo group saying it could not be done, was to dangerous, to expensive, would only save you pennies, we have all our other sources to do it for us, so why would you want to? I guess what I am really trying to say is this.
It is not the hours of crunching numbers that is to much, it is not the effort to try and think of every possible thing that can and will effect the actual cost of conducting this program. It is not even the hours it woudl take to promote the buy, collect the orders, answer questions, correct mistakes, collect extra charges or simply varify orders that just don't look quite right to me, process the packages and get them mailed that is to much. what is to much is having to overcome the resistance of this group.


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## maxwell_smart007 (Dec 12, 2007)

Well, since you're trying to promote a service that has many variables, you have to expect that there will be a few that are opposed to it...

I know that you're not profiting financially from this - in fact, you've already lost money if you give your time crunching numbers a monetary value...but you still have to approach this like you're selling something...

And in this case, what you're selling is a product that many of us do not trust.  There were a bunch of us who were almost on board during Monty's attempt at ordering kits from Rizheng (I have a full page on MS word of what I was planning on ordering), but then the rules changed.  The prices went up, and some questionable business practices occurred (pirating the forum, asking others to praise their business on this forum when no-one has had experience with them yet,)...

So it's not that we're opposed to the idea of group buys.  As you obviously know, there are group buys all the time - and many, many people take advantage of them.  Craft Supplies USA earns a lot of money from group buys.  CSUSA, however, is a reputable and customer service oriented company.  Rizheng may be, but we don't know that yet.  We don't know much about them, other than what they tell us on the website.  They do not have an office we can visit...calling them to fix a problem is not a cheap option.  If they send me the wrong kits, will they pay to send me the right ones?  I doubt it.  Can I complain to the BBB if anything goes wrong and they take my money?  Doubtful that it would matter.  Is there any reason why I should risk it when it's doubtful I'll save any money at all over the price of the kits at WoodnWhimsies?  Nah.  Given that, and the fact that there are many other variables, you may have difficulty selling this concept.  

I can't speak for everyone, but this is just my opinion.  I do appreciate the effort you put into trying to start a group buy...and if you DO start one, you will probably get a few people to give it a go; but I don't trust the source enough to send my money overseas without any guarantee of financial recourse if anything happens - and I don't know enough about the company to chance it...

So it's not resistance for the sake of resistance - it's cautiousness in the face of the unknown.


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## DocStram (Dec 12, 2007)

Daniel,
I, like many others, appreciate all the time that you must have spent crunching the numbers.  

With that said, I would like to politely offer my reasons for not becoming involved in a group buy with Rizheng. You've answered a lot of important questions. One that may have been overlooked would be how much shipping would cost if they needed to replace a missing piece or defective part.

Regardless of economics, for me it comes down to ethics. Rizheng blatantly spammed us; then, to make matters worse, they deliberately stole Jeff's hardwork and presented it as their own site. It wasn't even a matter of "the look and feel" of IAP; they took another person's website and presented it as their own. 

*Rizheng can come here and literally give their penkits to us for free. I'll be the first to tell them where to go. *
Again, I thank you for your hardwork and effort that you put into this discussion. You've been around IAP for a long time and you are a respected and valued colleague. This is just one of those things that we need to respectfully disagree with each other.


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## airrat (Dec 12, 2007)

Daniel my biggest problems with ordering from them is a)the quantity to make it worth while and b)we don't know the quality.   With all the difficulties of ordering from another country what would happen and the cost be for defective kits.


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## Brewmeister35 (Dec 12, 2007)

Just curious, but wouldn't it be cheaper to buy the Rhizeng kits from one of the resellers here like woodnwhimsies?  That way the platings can be evaluated without buyin a bazillion kits to make it worthwhile.


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## Daniel (Dec 12, 2007)

Hey Doc, You have a couple of very good points.
First I want to say that I don't necessarily disagree. I do acknowledge what the atmosphere is around here toward them. I told them what they did and how it would be received. I know you folks and I know that ethics come before advantage.
I also don't like that they robbed Jeff and I also know that is how he feels about it. He can kill this whole thing with one e-mail and I am pretty sure he knows that. If he didn't he does now. 
anyway I don't believe I should have to defend my view and I don't think any of you should have to defend yours either. they are what they are. and for me it helps me know what needs to be delt with and look for a way to deal with it.
Along that line you brought up anouther just as important obstical. What about lost or broken items. Hopefully my homework will have been good enough to take care of that.
Prices on a bulk buy cannot be set to the penny or the manger will sooner or later pay for something out of their pocket. that is not a workable long term program. when I started the CA Bulk Buy I had no idea what to allow for this.
now I have lots of info to go buy. first losses and various unforseen expenses are fairly well predictable thanks to mannies years of running the group buys he does. Second experience has shown that the members of this group will overcompensate if a mistake is revealed to them. Example is the drill bit buy going on now. the members are concerned that they would come up one penny short. this has always been true, but making such errors also makes the work on the manager much harder. better to already have mistakes covered. 
Tom, I have had like thoughts myself, and actually like the Idea of having a limited selecton or something at first. either limit participation, or something. haven't completed my thoughts on that yet but it is my single biggest worry that a huge order would go to pot in any way. As for quantities having to be large. the weight has to be for an entire order not specific items. half a kg is only 22 slimline kits so getting to the higher weights would not be that much of a problem. most orders that mannie had where over a kg each and one was 12 kg all by itself.
lost damaged or otherwise missing parts would either be rolled over into the next buy or if the manager had back up supply could be replaced from that stock. the idea is that you do not pay anything for lost or damaged goods. I ahve seen comments that rizheng ships extras for this pourpose and will replace damaged parts that are returned to them. this has been taken into account in the prices I set. overall it does not amount to much in the way of money. basically there needs to be a cushion that covers cost of returning and replacing products. this way members get there complete orders in a timely fashion and the program does not have a growing balance of defective kits and losses. It takes some time to build this fund but in my experience it is needed at just about the same rate as it grows.
I do know that care will be taken til Rizheng can prove themselves. there is  plenty of reason to dought them. I have seen some satisfactory comments from others that have ordered from them so I am not going on pure optomism. I noticed yesterday that several of there items are listed as out of stock, so something is moving somewhere. To tell you the truth when I saw the out of stock notices. I started wondering if there site will be gone when there stock runs out. I say that just to let you know I am not blind or ignorant. I have my eyes wide open and am still looking. I will also say that my first concern always has been and always will be this group. The price hike ticked me off, I guess the spam never really did cause it went to the trash with the other 50 or so spams I get every day. yeh yeh my e-mail is on the web. Ripping off this site has brought me right to the brink myself. Jeff has never been anything but a friend, has backed me up and incouraged me many times. this issue alone is the hardest for me to overcome. I have talked with him and my stance is not an easy one for me. I still believe there is a thread of a chance, obviously, and I believe that if this can be made to work it will make the group better. my ultimate prayer would be to simply find anouther company. The CA bulk buy was hard to start, but I didn't have the company kicking themselves in the teeth in the middle of it. maybe that cannot be overcome. if this is so it is what they did it and I don't have the power to change it. Above all, I hope all of you will stay true to your heart and consience. I am. I hope no one will be close minded, and I hope I am not a wrong.


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## Daniel (Dec 12, 2007)

Brewmeister, to tell you the truth I have no idea. I don't know what wooden whimsies prices or shipping are. I will tell you I have started more group buys that where scapped because there are prices out there that cannot be beat than I have gotten to work. It woudl help if you could give me the actual cost of an order from them. and I can tell if this program would meet or beat it. One other thing. group buys for me are not all about better price. that is nice and definitly the biggest reason to take part in one. but it is also about what it does for the group. I always have and always will liked the idea of us being our own suppliers. it is not realistic that we can supply everythign a penturner will ever want. but it does add to this being the place to be.


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## maxwell_smart007 (Dec 12, 2007)

Woodnwhimsies: a large purchase of 100 slimlines would cost 1.49 each plus shipping, whereas if you only bought one, it would cost 1.59


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## Daniel (Dec 13, 2007)

Andrew,
 for various reasons, one being that my shipping and pay pal fees are calculated in. I will use a 100 kit comparison.
Woodnwhimsis would be $149.00 plus shipping
this group buy would be $155.28 total with a possable need for extra postage of around $5.00
and that is still at the high end of the prices possible.
the price could go as low as $144.90 
those prices are both extremes and this presents various problems concerning either. the lower price may not take into account the padding needed to cover mistakes etc. and the higher price might tend to be overcharging on every item. finding a good balance point is simply a matter of making a choice and living with it. I think it is better to set the price high and then lower it if needed than to be low and have to raise them. I can't know what the average weight of orders will be until there have been some orders to average. I expect they will be large in the beginning then slow down and settle around a true average. so right now I am setting the price at the 2kg order weight and thinking I will adjust from there. the first quote was at the 2kg price the second was at a 10kg price.
that does not mean there has to be 10kg of slimlines ordered. it means the entire order has to weigh 10kg. the few orders mannie had in his attempt weighed 17kg. I just can't deside if I think orders would consistanlty come in at that rate. mostly thinkin no.


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## IPD_Mrs (Dec 13, 2007)

Daniel I am a little confussed, so help me out a bit here.

At woodnwhimsies 100 kits are $149.00 plus shipping.  Shipping based on previous orders with them would be a flat rate box for $8.95.  So $157.95 for 100 slims.   On the other side of the coin we have an overseas Dist/manufac. that can get the pens to you best case $144.90.  Grand savings $13.05.  Or nine more slims.  I really do not understand the drive for buying from this company.  If the savings was huge or there were some product that is not available elsewhere, then I can see it.  

So am I missing something that I should be excited about and jump on the band wagon over.  I am not trying to be a smarta** for once?  I am just trying to understand your drive and motivation.

Thanks,
Mike


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## Husky (Dec 13, 2007)

Daniel,

I have been following this thread and have also watched the other threads regarding this company.

Here is my synopsis of the situation:

1) The savings realized from dealing with this company are relatively small, at best, and can often result in increased costs.

2) The companies ability to disseminate information clearly and without contradiction or changes, is at best POOR.

3) Everything in my 55 years experience in this world tells me to trust my judgement or "gut feelings" when evaluating new companies with no real track record. From all I have seen, my gut feeling tell me "run!, don't walk , away from this situation"   

It appears you personally want to trust this company. I admire your trust. But all signs I've received say pass, we have good reliable suppliers who have worked with us and have proven track records. Until there are suppliers who can exhibit good, reliable communication, and follow it up with good customer service AND save $$, I don't see any reason to make the change.

Stan


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## Daniel (Dec 13, 2007)

Mike,
 I sort of made it a habit to use the slimline for price comparison. it is probably on the low end for savings. my best guess at the highest savings item is the Pen mill set
$9.82 compare at P.S.I. for $35.95.


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## IPD_Mrs (Dec 13, 2007)

Thanks for the info Daniel.  I am assuming you are talking about the PKTRIMKIT from PSI.  I have several of the pilot shafts as well as inserts for various size tubes, so that is an item that would not be bennifical to me.  Again thanks for responding.

Mike


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## TBone (Dec 13, 2007)

> _Originally posted by DocStram_
> 
> ....Regardless of economics, for me it comes down to ethics. Rizheng blatantly spammed us; then, to make matters worse, they deliberately stole Jeff's hardwork and presented it as their own site. It wasn't even a matter of "the look and feel" of IAP; they took another person's website and presented it as their own.


As far as I'm concerned, this speaks volumes about whether I want to deal with this company.

Thank you for all the hard work crunching numbers and presenting the information.


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## cowchaser (Dec 13, 2007)

Might be overstepping myself here, but if they steal someones website who is to say your money isn't next. Now I did not plan on participating in a group buy from this company so I probably shouldn't say much. I am more than happy with every company I have ordered from recommended on this website. There are still a few I need to purchase from also. I just can't bring myself to send my money overseas when there are people here that trying to make a living and shouldn't have to compete with companies like Rizheng. These folks will be here when Rizheng is a memory.


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## Daniel (Dec 13, 2007)

Dustin,
 I don't think they did anything they did to try and harm anyone. There actions came from failing to understand this group, it's rules or it's members. Offensive behavior is offensive regardless of the reasons for it though. And I don't think they have done anything to increase there understanding either. If I thought they where crooks I would not consider dealing with them. Also there selection is pretty small in comparison to other suppliers. they may be offering some pen parts that cannot be gotten anywhere else but I am not sure. I don't think I will be doing anything on this til after the first of the year. I want to keep my eye on them for a while anyway.


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## Jarheaded (Dec 13, 2007)

Can you feel the love........


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## CrazyBear (Dec 14, 2007)

Hi Daniel

I appreciate what you are doing and I had a similar response from some members when I asked if anyone had used their kits.

Just a little info for you

At the start of November I recieved their price list before they opened their web page.
Comparing prices from then till now appears to show a 15% price hike.


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## Daniel (Dec 14, 2007)

Hugh,
 there price hike was just one of a string of things they have done. All of which has left a pretty sour taste in the mouths of the members here.
 there is a very interesting development today in regard to this whole idea. see this thread. hope the link works http://www.penturners.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=30982
This looks like a much better situation to me, or at least it could be, for now there are tons of questions but I will also be watching the development of it. I would really like to buying the higher end kits myself. I sent an e-mail off to them hoping to get some price and shipping info. for now it looks like there are a lot of people interested in working on it. we will see.


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