# My impression of Time In Space....



## pensmyth (Sep 12, 2010)

This was really fun to make and cast. Will I do more? I don't know I have to wait and see if my eyes will uncross! :biggrin: Pen is a Sierra Vista.


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## Snorton20 (Sep 12, 2010)

I like it.  Good job. I hope your eyes will uncross soon so you can really enjoy it.


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## rjwolfe3 (Sep 12, 2010)

Beautiful!


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## GaryMGg (Sep 12, 2010)

And, it's 5 O'Clock. Beer 30.
:biggrin:
Nice pen.


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## cinder_ladylocket (Sep 12, 2010)

Ok, Now I need some blanks!!!!!!!!!!! Wonderful!!!!!!!


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## pensmyth (Sep 12, 2010)

cinder_ladylocket said:


> Ok, Now I need some blanks!!!!!!!!!!! Wonderful!!!!!!!



you can find watch parts on ebay listed under "steampunk". Wish I'd known that BEFORE I went cross eyed taking several old watches apart!


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## bitshird (Sep 12, 2010)

Nice looking pen, good to see an original design. 












[size=-10]get run into the ground[/size]


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## LarryDNJR (Sep 12, 2010)

It looks nice.  I think you should have added more parts but otherwise looks good.  I'm glad to see people are making these and successfully making them look good.


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## LarryDNJR (Sep 12, 2010)

bitshird said:


> Nice looking pen, good to see an original design.
> [SIZE=-10]get run into the ground[/SIZE]



sigh


Mod?  delete?


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## Nikitas (Sep 12, 2010)

5 O'Clock somewhere!


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## pensmyth (Sep 12, 2010)

LarryDNJR said:


> It looks nice.  I think you should have added more parts but otherwise looks good.  I'm glad to see people are making these and successfully making them look good.



Thanks, I thought about adding more but I was running short of good parts and it kind of reminded me of a scene I saw on the Twilight Zone MANY years ago like it was floating and went with it.


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## pensmyth (Sep 12, 2010)

bitshird said:


> Nice looking pen, good to see an original design.
> 
> [SIZE=-10]get run into the ground[/SIZE]



Oh Now Ken......eace:


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## bitshird (Sep 12, 2010)

Andy, I'm sorry, but I had a conversation with Barry Gross and Curtis about this, it's nice, but I think some people are going to regret doing these, Barry seems pretty determined to protect his concept, plus he's laying out several thousand dollars a month for advertising, I doubt if he'll be hitting any one for making one or two, but someone who's making or says he's making 20 or so of them is looking like a nice target. I have enough metal smithing equipment and tools that it would be quite easy for me, in fact, I know of a much better way of securing the parts to the tube after bending them to shape, but I'm going to sit this craze out, Mostly because Barry Gross seems like a decent guy, and I've had Jewelry designs knocked off, at least the guys that stole my designs were kind enough to buy several of them at full retail then mold and cast them, I do wish they'd had the decency to at least remove my Hallmark and copyright from the buckles. mostly because the work they were doing was pathetic, Lousy casting , horrid finishing and there was still fire scale on the larger surfaces of the buckles and tips.
unfortunatly all I could afford was to have my attorney issue a cease and desist order, , the dirtbags that were knocking me off didn't have enough assets to sue for, and their equipment was junk or I might have gone after them, The cease and desist order had the desired effect though. And conversely I've been on the other side of the coin I used to make the most beautiful Mickey and Minny Mouse 14 kt gold charms, until a nice guy came in and bought a pair of them 4 days later I got a very nice letter from a law firm representing Walt Disney, demanding I cease and desist making marketing and distributing these charms as well as destroy my master molds and master of the charms, which I did, Walt had the power, I gave the cut up molds to the lawyer, and gave him a pair of charms, with a sprue on them, (I fudged on the original masters my wife still has them). Sorry, I'm not trying to hijack your thread, but after the amount of discussion, and the fact that the actual reason Mr. Tate has yet to disclose for the original pictures of his being pulled, and the fact he was bragging about selling one of the pens, which Barry was kind enough to help him with, "on the grounds that he would only make two, one for his father and one for himself, and not display or offer up for sale" , This pen, although it is very pretty, just leaves a bad taste in my mouth, I had thought about making one for my wife, but not any more, Right is Right, and Honor comes at a high price, I hope Gary finds this out soon.


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## pensmyth (Sep 12, 2010)

bitshird said:


> Andy, I'm sorry, but I had a conversation with Barry Gross and Curtis about this, it's nice, but I think some people are going to regret doing these, Barry seems pretty determined to protect his concept, plus he's laying out several thousand dollars a month for advertising, I doubt if he'll be hitting any one for making one or two, but someone who's making or says he's making 20 or so of them is looking like a nice target. I have enough metal smithing equipment and tools that it would be quite easy for me, in fact, I know of a much better way of securing the parts to the tube after bending them to shape, but I'm going to sit this craze out, Mostly because Barry Gross seems like a decent guy, and I've had Jewelry designs knocked off, at least the guys that stole my designs were kind enough to buy several of them at full retail then mold and cast them, I do wish they'd had the decency to at least remove my Hallmark and copyright from the buckles. mostly because the work they were doing was pathetic, Lousy casting , horrid finishing and there was still fire scale on the larger surfaces of the buckles and tips.
> unfortunatly all I could afford was to have my attorney issue a cease and desist order, , the dirtbags that were knocking me off didn't have enough assets to sue for, and their equipment was junk or I might have gone after them, The cease and desist order had the desired effect though. And conversely I've been on the other side of the coin I used to make the most beautiful Mickey and Minny Mouse 14 kt gold charms, until a nice guy came in and bought a pair of them 4 days later I got a very nice letter from a law firm representing Walt Disney, demanding I cease and desist making marketing and distributing these charms as well as destroy my master molds and master of the charms, which I did, Walt had the power, I gave the cut up molds to the lawyer, and gave him a pair of charms, with a sprue on them, (I fudged on the original masters my wife still has them). Sorry, I'm not trying to hijack your thread, but after the amount of discussion, and the fact that the actual reason Mr. Tate has yet to disclose for the original pictures of his being pulled, and the fact he was bragging about selling one of the pens, which Barry was kind enough to help him with, "on the grounds that he would only make two, one for his father and one for himself, and not display or offer up for sale" , This pen, although it is very pretty, just leaves a bad taste in my mouth, I had thought about making one for my wife, but not any more, Right is Right, and Honor comes at a high price, I hope Gary finds this out soon.



Whoa, Ken step down off your soap box PLEASE. First of all I didn't make this pen to sell I made it for me to use and keep. As far as whats been said in the past about Barry & his pen/design and copy rights or what ever I could give a tinkers dam. From what I've seen on the internet he better be ready to take on ebay, etsy and quite a few other sites that sell items with his "design/idea" because there's a lot of craftsmen out there doing this steampunk, eco friendly pens or what ever you want to call it. PLEASE quit beating a dead horse.


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## Lenny (Sep 12, 2010)

Nikitas said:


> 5 O'Clock somewhere!


 

Thirst ... I mean First Call! 

very cool pen btw


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## btboone (Sep 12, 2010)

Where does Car d Ache or however it's spelled come in to this?  They had one on the back cover of Penworld way before I ever saw one from anyone else.  It would seem that they should be the ones with the problem with it.  The concept doesn't seem patentable and a copyright is pretty gray as to what is actually copied.  I have the same issue with the puzzle pen.  It wasn't a big deal until it became a cottage industry with others claiming that they got the idea "by looking at a vase" and making others pay royalties to them!  Just giving credit to the originator would go a long way.  I think Barry might be a bit bold in claiming the concept as his own.  Perhaps he was one of the first to cast in gears for use in a kit form, but the concept has certainly been out there.


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## robutacion (Sep 12, 2010)

What happened to the minutes arm on the oval face watch...??? should the close to 10:00 o'clock tough...!:biggrin:

Quite nice compilation, simple but effective...!

The problem with old watch dismantling is that you get lots of little parts but only on watch face, on eBay you get mostly parts and no faces at all, using 2 faces per watch is going to keep anyone very busy, looking for complete old watches...!:frown:

Well done...!

Cheers
George


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## Caden_Hrabak (Sep 12, 2010)

i want to do one of these so bad 

Gorgeous pen


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## Willee (Sep 12, 2010)

Andy, I love it ... at last someone meshed some of the gears together in a watch pen.

Excuse me ... Steampunk art pen.

Wonder if that makes it a NEW concept or a different variation on an existing concept?

Anyhow, I love the look of these pens and will be doing one or two for myself later this year.


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## Willee (Sep 12, 2010)

bitshird said:


> This pen, although it is very pretty, just leaves a bad taste in my mouth,



Ken ... stop putting pens in your mouth ... you dont know where they have been!


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## PR_Princess (Sep 12, 2010)

Bruce, nice to see you back on the forum posting!!! 
I hope you stick around for a while!


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## pensmyth (Sep 12, 2010)

Willee said:


> bitshird said:
> 
> 
> > This pen, although it is very pretty, just leaves a bad taste in my mouth,
> ...



OH SNAP! Now I need a towel to wipe the coffee off my screen....:coffee:


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## penmanship (Sep 12, 2010)

snappy looking pen ~ I like it alot! :biggrin:


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## btboone (Sep 12, 2010)

Thanks Dawn.  I read the forum daily.  I've been having record days with the rings, so the pens have taken a back seat.

It's funny, the moment I saw it, the Caran d’Ache pen with the watch parts was my favorite pen of all time.  Now it seems everyone is copying them.  Not a bad thing if they don't have a problem with it.  Their pen has very distinctive features that make it their own.


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## shawnmhill (Sep 12, 2010)

Stunning!


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## bruce119 (Sep 13, 2010)

I am still working on mine. Up to about 200 parts I lost count. And there not ALL watch parts does that make it safe. Great looking steampunk pen. It will still be a few days before I can unveil mine. I still got to get through the casting stage and fine TIME. 

Nice job they are a lot of work not for everyone.

.


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## wizard (Sep 13, 2010)

Beautiful Pen !


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## jttheclockman (Sep 13, 2010)

btboone said:


> Thanks Dawn. I read the forum daily. I've been having record days with the rings, so the pens have taken a back seat.
> 
> It's funny, the moment I saw it, the Caran d’Ache pen with the watch parts was my favorite pen of all time. Now it seems everyone is copying them. Not a bad thing if they don't have a problem with it. Their pen has very distinctive features that make it their own.


 

Hello Bruce

Always loved your work. I thought I would ask your opinion on the whole watch pen debate being you probably are familar with copyrights and patents???  Not sure if you have been keping up on the ongoing debate of its legality to be copied, here is one link to such debate and others can be found in the Advanced pen making forum, http://www.penturners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=67310

I am sure you must have had such problems when you came out with your puzzle pen. I have read all the comments for and against and it is enough to make your head spin. My views are burried in those pages of comments  but I will say again that I find it unethical to try to claim an idea or copyright an idea. If the concept of casting items in resin is the concept being challenged then there is no case. If the concept of using watch parts then as you pointed out there are other players before Barry. If it is the concept of the use of the phrase Eco Friendly pens then that is or can not be copyrighted from what has been told here. So I still just do not get the jist of this debate. As I mentioned I am in the process of gathering enough parts to do my own rendition.

Just curious to hear your thoughts. Thanks.


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## Skye (Sep 13, 2010)

btboone said:


> It's funny, the moment I saw it, the Caran d’Ache pen with the watch parts was my favorite pen of all time.



I didn't even know about that pen. After looking it up, DAAANG that's an amazing thing!


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## btboone (Sep 13, 2010)

Thanks John.  Yes, I have about 18 patents and lots of others pending.  It's is a very tough thing to get and once you do, it's a tough thing to protect.

It does depend heavily on what Barry claims as to whether a patent covers it.  If it's the technique, he has a better shot than if it's the concept of a pen with gears in it.  He would be fighting with Caran d'Ache as to the concept date, and being a large corporation with a huge investment in it, they've probably been working on that pen for a very long time and would fight any patent vigorously.  Even though I've seen people say a patent has been applied for, I didn't see an application for Barry with the patent office.  That doesn't mean that one hasn't been filed though; they are fairly slow to update stuff.  The application will have to show exactly how the process is done so that someone skilled in the art could make one.  Unfortunately, a provisional patent will have no power to prevent anyone from doing anything; only when and if the real patent issues in a few years will that give him the right to stop others.  Even then, it will be up to him to sue others in order to get them to stop; the patent office has no jurisdiction in disputes.  If the concept is simply gears in a pen body, my opinon is that the patent would be considered obvious or extremely weak and could be challenged.  That's why I didn't seek a patent for the puzzle pen.  It's a pretty simple concept.  With hindsight, I should have probably done something once others claimed to come up with it.   I do wish the others that stole it from me included me in the royalties of the products produced.  I think a buck or so per pen produced would be fair enough to all parties involved.   I think that should be Barry's stratagy, using licensing agreements.  Casting gears in resin isn't rocket science, but if he has come up with a method or technique that improves on what's been done before he has a much better case.  Once the cat's out of the bag, it's very hard to reign it in.


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## jttheclockman (Sep 13, 2010)

btboone said:


> Thanks John. Yes, I have about 18 patents and lots of others pending. It's is a very tough thing to get and once you do, it's a tough thing to protect.
> 
> It does depend heavily on what Barry claims as to whether a patent covers it. If it's the technique, he has a better shot than if it's the concept of a pen with gears in it. He would be fighting with Caran d'Ache as to the concept date, and being a large corporation with a huge investment in it, they've probably been working on that pen for a very long time and would fight any patent vigorously. Even though I've seen people say a patent has been applied for, I didn't see an application for Barry with the patent office. That doesn't mean that one hasn't been filed though; they are fairly slow to update stuff. The application will have to show exactly how the process is done so that someone skilled in the art could make one. Unfortunately, a provisional patent will have no power to prevent anyone from doing anything; only when and if the real patent issues in a few years will that give him the right to stop others. Even then, it will be up to him to sue others in order to get them to stop; the patent office has no jurisdiction in disputes. If the concept is simply gears in a pen body, my opinon is that the patent would be considered obvious or extremely weak and could be challenged. That's why I didn't seek a patent for the puzzle pen. It's a pretty simple concept. With hindsight, I should have probably done something once others claimed to come up with it. I do wish the others that stole it from me included me in the royalties of the products produced. I think a buck or so per pen produced would be fair enough to all parties involved. I think that should be Barry's stratagy, using licensing agreements. Casting gears in resin isn't rocket science, but if he has come up with a method or technique that improves on what's been done before he has a much better case. Once the cat's out of the bag, it's very hard to reign it in.


 

Bruce thanks for the input. Just to set the record straight because I am pretty sure there is a difference between copyright and patent so it is a copyright he has taken out on his Eco Friendly pens. Like I said this has been debated back and forth and what some are saying it comes down to a moral issue. If you feel you are doing no wrong in your heart then do so. I again feel the idea can not be copyrighted.

In one of the original posts here is what Barry said when the first watch pen showed up here. If no other thing this has made for some lively debate and gotten the members interested abit in the site again. So the discussion is not a bad thing as some may come to think it has. 

---------Jeff apologized and I accepted - here are my thoughts - Intellectual Property can be copyrighted. When I publish my books the publisher and I both enjoy a copyright for that book or DVD. I did extensive research on the idea of placing watch parts, beer caps, cigar labels and fsihing fly lures on pen tubes and casting them in clear acrylic. This is call a "derivative work" and as such I can use watch parts, beer caps, cigar labels etc, because I am NOT selling a brand name watch, or beer or a cigar. I am using discarded material and creating a piece of art.
Yes, at the AAW I explainded how to make some of these pens and if you looked closely at the powerpoint presentation, there was a copyright symbol on the Eco-Friendly pens. I also said that I did not mind nor do I mind if you choose to make one for yourself but I do mind if you commercially market the pens as your own creation. 
Jeff and I met in Ohio at the pen show and we did speak on the phone several timesa since the show. I coached him on how to make the watch pen because he told me he wanted to make one for his father and himself and when I saw the posting on this site stating "My Latest Creations--Complexity of Time" and "This is from my Complexity of Time Series." Which implies that its his idea, and certainly states that he has made more, and will continue - by saying it's a series. That is where I have to draw a line in the sand to protect my intellectual property! - *Barry* Gross ---------
__________________
Barry Gross


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## Jim in Oakville (Sep 13, 2010)

I think it's Barry's attitude that makes me gag, Good God, It's a pen, not a life saving medical advancement......  sheeze.......


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## Tanner (Sep 13, 2010)

That's a great looking pen!  Nice execution!


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## tdjumr (Sep 13, 2010)

*Not trying to stir stuff up*

If someone was trying to protect their copyright, they should put wording on their website where they are selling said copyrighted items that they are copywrited.

I went to Barry's website and looked at one of his watch pieces fountain pen. Nowhere did I see that the design is copyrighted, the images posted did not bear any type of copyright mark, and the process was described.



			
				www.bgartforms.com said:
			
		

> Vintage mechanical watches are carefully dis-assembled and the parts are examined to see if they will fit onto the appropriate sized painted pen tubes. Once the watch parts are inspected, they are carefully positioned onto the tubes to assure that the maximum number of parts are placed into each piece. As the watch pieces are arranged, they are glued onto the pen tubes one piece at a time. Once all the pieces are glued onto the pen tubes, the assemblies are coated over a three day period with a non-yellowing acrylic assuring maximum protection for years to come for your Watch Pieces Pen. Once the acrylic is dry it is then turned on a lathe and each piece is hand polished to 12,000 grit and buffed to a high gloss shine.


 
http://www.bgartforms.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=38_36&product_id=195

Any penmaker who goes to his site, looks at the pen, sees the description could, with a little effort, duplicate what he has done with the information he has listed. Nothing is visible that the design is copyrighted.

I give crdit to Barry for what he has developed and created. But if he wants to protect his copyrighted designs, he needs to make it known that his designs are copyrighted on his website where he is selling them. 

Update: Only place that a copyright is mentioned is from a sidebar link on the "about us" page.


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## Skye (Sep 13, 2010)

Jim in Oakville said:


> It's a pen, not a life saving medical advancement......  sheeze.......



Unless you're choking on some dry chicken and someone performs and emergency tracheotomy and uses it to help you breathe.  Oh, you'll be singing another tune then! Well,... not singing because of the pen in your throat... whistling?


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## OKLAHOMAN (Sep 13, 2010)

The technique he is useing is different than what most of us use. We are casting with a poly resin  and he is coating with a non yellowing epoxy.
Just wondering out loud if that matters....



tdjumr said:


> If someone was trying to protect their copyright, they should put wording on their website where they are selling said copyrighted items that they are copywrited.
> 
> I went to Barry's website and looked at one of his watch pieces fountain pen. Nowhere did I see that the design is copyrighted, the images posted did not bear any type of copyright mark, and the process was described.
> 
> ...


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## btboone (Sep 13, 2010)

It is hard to come up with the Next Big Thing.  I see my stuff showing up from China and others all the time.  It's the trying to take credit for an idea that's not yours that chaps the @$$ of the inventor.  Even if there's not riches to be made, it is always nice to have the credit where credit is due.  When others claim to have come up with it, that's where the issues come in.


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## OKLAHOMAN (Sep 13, 2010)

Bruce I agree 100% in giving credit where it's due!


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## bruce119 (Sep 13, 2010)

OKLAHOMAN said:


> The technique he is useing is different than what most of us use. We are casting with a poly resin and he is coating with a non yellowing epoxy.
> Just wondering out loud if that matters....


 
Kind of like building a fishing rod or so he says

.


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## rjwolfe3 (Sep 13, 2010)

So those that cast in a resin saver mold are not even using the same method so they are safe then, right, lol.




bruce119 said:


> OKLAHOMAN said:
> 
> 
> > The technique he is useing is different than what most of us use. We are casting with a poly resin and he is coating with a non yellowing epoxy.
> ...


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## thewishman (Sep 13, 2010)

Nice pen, Andy. Very classy look.

Did you show any of your firetrucks at the Bob McDorman car show?


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## pensmyth (Sep 13, 2010)

thewishman said:


> Nice pen, Andy. Very classy look.
> 
> Did you show any of your firetrucks at the Bob McDorman car show?



No, unfortunately I didn't even get to go. I'm waiting on the motor to come back from a rebuild on the 41 and the 30 is still sitting waiting for parts too.
I'd heard a rumor that Bob had an old fire truck and I saw the backside of it Saturday as I drove up RT33. You can bet I'll be there next year though!:biggrin:

Oh, Thanks for the positive comments too.


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## MikeyTn (Sep 13, 2010)

Beautiful pen no matter who made it or thought of it first. Run the idea into the ground along with the leather pens. If I had the skills I'd make a bunch of each and sell'em and give everybody who bought one a nice Mickey and Minnie Mouse charm free. I doubt anybody who cares would catch me.


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## thewishman (Sep 13, 2010)

pensmyth said:


> I'd heard a rumor that Bob had an old fire truck and I saw the backside of it Saturday as I drove up RT33. You can bet I'll be there next year though!:biggrin:



I saw that truck from the highway,too, and thought it might be yours. Let me know when you show them, I'd like to see your trucks.


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## S.A.Mappin (Sep 14, 2010)

Skye said:


> Jim in Oakville said:
> 
> 
> > It's a pen, not a life saving medical advancement...... sheeze.......
> ...


   Not even a whistle Skye, you'd just get hot air!!:biggrin:

I really like your pen, I like the meshing of the gears.


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## louie68 (Sep 14, 2010)

Just like to say your watch pen is 1st Class all the way !!! keep making them if you are enjoying your hobby !!!


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