# Churchill fragile?



## Dan_F

I recall seeing references to Churchill kits being vulnerable to some sort of damage, but can't seem to find any specific details about this. Can anyone comment on this, with specifics? I'd like to try ordering a few, but not if they are prone to problems. Thanks,

Dan


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## potter

i had no Problems with the Curchills. Certainly they are more vulnerable than Juniors, which are made from metal. If you throw the pen to the floor, may be the case it brakes. I heared the same about Pelikans, Watermans, Parkers....be careful and enjoy the wonderful design....
Harry


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## Firefyter-emt

The weak point is at the nib coupler threads. The Berea kit has a very thin plastic tube threaded on the top half of the outside and a step that presses into the metal coupler. The inside is also threaded for the nib.  The failure happens inside the coupler where it is at it's thinnest. The entire cap is secured at a point that is less than .020" thick.

Now I have just found out that the CSUSA style kit, the Ligero is designed much better where the entire nib threads into a metal fitting, not that silly plastic "tube sleave" threads.  Sadly, CSUSA no longer sells the Ligero in a FP [V].

This is the CSUSA style threads which is designed far stronger than the Churchill/El-Grande style.  Sadly, they do not make a Churchill version, but the good news is that the parts can be swapped over cheaply enough if you want a "strong Chruchill" Or even the new Cambridge!  (Angain, sadly though, only in a rollerball.)

I will see if I can find the photos of the weak Berea design.
This photo is of the CSUSA style Ligero kit (El-Grande)


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## Ligget

I have a broken Churchill in my shop, it broke where Lee says is the weak point.

Will try to post pic later.

It was in my wifes handbag when she put her pur on top of the pen, and snapped it in two.

No she isn`t rich!


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## scubaman

I wish people with broken El Grandes or Churchills would send broken parts to Berea.  Nothing happens until they see those.  I collected a few broken ones (broken same way) and took them out.  And they told me despite beople talking about that breakage these were the first returned parts they had had.


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## Firefyter-emt

I think the problem is that we buy them from supliers normaly and if they want to deal with the problem, we should not be going to the one who sells the pens to them ourself. 

Case in point, a plating issue with supplier was resolved with a replacement kit, blank and folow up about the steps being looked into what went wrong with the plating. Case 2, a second kit from a diffrent supplier came to me with the plastic threads broken on the outside from being crushed... the resolution?  "We don't have spare parts for those kits, I can't help you".  No matter how you look at it, the very thin plastic threads are, I believe, the weakest design of any of the other kits sold. There is just too much that needs to rely on such a small area of plastic.

Rich, you mentioned that you sent some in to Berea. Do you remember if this was before they came out with the new Cambridge with the exact same problem design?  It is easy to say "you are the only one who..." It is another to do something about it.


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## scubaman

I've pointed this problem out to them in the past...  I brought them the parts when I visited them, in November.  I saw the first pre-production Cambridges there.  But the design was locked in at that point

I love the El Grande pen and kit, I've made many, and know the fine points of that kit very well.  Over the years I have pointed out a couple of other El Grande issues I have, like the cap finial diameter not matching the clip plate.  It's such an obvious fault...  but the general answer I get on such issue is 'do you know how many of these we sell, and how many complaints we get about this issue?'  I understand that pragmatic business response.  The only way to make them realize that it's an issue is if more people complained, not just that 1 guy (me)

About the breakage...  they were aware of the rumors.  They tried to induce breakage and could not!  You can't do it by bending the pen - unless some unknown pre-condition exists.  Since it is low occurrence overall, this is difficult to diagnose.  The only thing we can do is document and return broken parts...  When this happens in a closed-end pen of course there is no non-destuctive way to remove the parts...

I understand the retailers reactions also.  They do not want to start opening kits to send out replacement parts.  (Not that I agree with that policy...)  Well, this is what you get from retailers...  you can typically buy from Berea directly also.  And I have never had a problem with getting a part replaced by Berea, even if they had to open a kit.  All I can suggest is to contact Berea if you have a problem with any of their parts, even if purchased through retail elsewhere.  And ideally to return broken parts to them for analysis.

I've become increasingly dissatisfied with the way the cap posts on El Grande and Churchill.  Especially after I saw that PSI's version posts wonderfully, and some Tropical El Grandes were absolutely perfect.  Why not wlll?  I returned a few pens to them to demostrate the problem.  They are looking into a fix for this issue - I don't know if it'll happen or not, I do hope so.  There's nothing like talking to the manufacturer.


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## Draken

When one of mine broke, I emailed Berea, and I let them know I purchased it via AZ and that AZ didn't stock the replacement part.  They promptly sent me out a replacement, but made no comment one way or the other as to how often this occurs.  They did suggest using a press block to prevent stressing out that piece of delrin.


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## scubaman

Press-block is a good idea of course - I always have used one.  It does not prevent this breakage though.


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## Ligget

Why don`t we have a permenant place in here for reporting problems in the Churchhill.

I have three break at the same point so far, and I use a press block.[V]

Richard you are correct to say we should act and return to Beara or the reseller each failed Churchill!


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## scubaman

Well, maybe having a collection place here would help a little.  It'll at least give each one of us that warm and fuzzy feeling "we're not alone in this".  But it does little directly at the manufacturer...  and it also does not build up any valid statistics. The argument at the mfgr is "the complaints are far and in between, and anectdotal.  We sell so many of these, and have not had any complaints from our large commercial customers".  Which has me had go back and rethink if there is ANYTHING unusual in the breakage cases...  and I've never found anything...

This is frustrating to those of us that encounter the problems, and most of us I'm sure are convinced we've done everything right.  To really make a change we need to talk to the manufacturer, return parts to them.  Don't forget, as frustrating as this is when it happens - it's still only a small percentage of cases, in most shops.  I'd love for them to find the root cause and fix whatever it is - even if it's an assembly or technique at our end fix.


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## Dan_F

Thanks for the replies. So does most of the breakage occur during assembly then? How many of you have had pens come back broken after the sale? Has anyone sworn off the kit altogether?

Dan


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## scubaman

In my case, they do not break during assemble - never had that happen.  Had a pen come back TWICE from the same customer.  I'd written it off as a maverick at the time - especially after it happened the second time from the same customer, figured he was doing something wrong...  Since then I had 1 of my own break, plus a pen only handled by (careful) customers in my presence.  And know of others where mistreatement can be completely excluded.  I'm being pragmatic about this - it's still low rate of incidence, and while I would like to hva 0.00% failure, I accept that occasionally something happens outside of my control, and I have not stopped making this pen.


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## Firefyter-emt

I have always used a press block to put them togather and never broken one pressing it. I DID however, cave in the final cap on a Churchill once! It was so thin that trying to press the clip & final retainer in place caved the whole end cap in.  
I have only had one returned that I sold sold, but I have only sold four of them and one had been lost. The one that was returned, I was able to repair with some CA and it is still holding today. (As with my pens) I have personaly have broken three of the kits myself. One was dropped on the floor when my churchill got caught in my daughters hair. It fell just under three feet as I was in a chair.  Once El-Grande was noticed when the cap was put on and it was loose (IE: pulled out) and the other El-Grande was noticed while using it.  

Of the sold pens, 2 were gifts so I would dobut the owner would show the person that bought it for them, if they did it still might not of gotten back to me.

For me, until they change the style, I have discontinued the kit and gone to the Ligero.  It has a better designed coupler. If I have an order and someone "has to have" the Churchill, I will raise the price to include the cost of a CSUSA kit which will be bought just for the nib coupler assy.  I also like the fact that the final end is brass and not plastic. It's much more like the Churchill in that way.

Rich, you mention the clip final and the clip diameter. I just happen to have a Rhoidum Ligero kit on my desk and I grabbed my calipers to check the size on the Ligero.
Wish it was a better fit myself. If it was brass, I would turn it and re-powdercoat it.
Final cap: .600 
Clip: .591

FWIW, I have no idea what the bushings are, nor do I care. I build to fit the hardware, not the bushing guides.


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## Ligget

I have never had one break during assembly, one broke whilst a purse was placed onto it whilst in a bag, the other two broke when dropped.

Luckily it was people I knew who owned them all.[:0]


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## Buzz

I've broken a couple by dropping them.  They gave way at the point described by Lee.  The last one fell out of my hand about two feet onto a coffee table.  The Churchill/El Grande is, in my opinion, the most fragile of all the commonly made capped pens.


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## Ligget

We should have a sticky on here for such complaints/problems, then when we get to a certain amount pass the link to Berea. (I`m pretty sure he/they will be reading these anyway).


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## cdcarter

Yes, it's true. The problem is at the thread coupler as described. My day to day Churchill broke at just that point when it simply rolled off the desk. I just used my last Churchill kit, and I've replaced it with the Baron in my product line.


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## Kaspar

I have had a few break like that as well.  Here's the problem:






The CSUSA kit has an all metal "nib coupler" bracing against the tube with a thick plastic nib going into it. Note, too, that the centerband attaches to threads on the nib itself.   






The Berea coupler has a thin plastic thread receiver inside the metal "nib holder" and it also has threads on the outside for the centerband.  It is very susceptible to breaking if too much lateral force is exerted against the pen, especially the pen cap.  I've had them cleave just inside where the threading meets the metal.  I think the design actually helps it to break there.  That thin plastic insert is carrying too much of the load, as it were.


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## Firefyter-emt

Now the real killer is that all they need to do is replace that junk plastic with metal like the Statesman/Gentleman style. That kis is much like the Churchill style, just the it has a metal thread over plastic.


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## scubaman

> _Originally posted by Kaspar_
> 
> I have had a few break like that as well.  Here's the problem:


Yet if you try to break one, it won't.  And most of them don't.  There is some as yet unknown element involved.  I wish i knew what it was.

When I first saw the Ligero 'inverted' construction, I thought having 2 threads back to back would eb a problem.  That the section might unscrew rather than the cap.  In practice, that has never happened for me.  Still, intuitively the El Grande type of construction seems a better design - if only they wouldn't break.  Making the plstic tenon a little thicker wall and reducing the bushing should be fairly easy - but if I were the manufacturer, I'd want to know what I'm fixing before making a change.  Until the root cause of the breakage is understood - and especially because you can't break these routinely if you try - who knows whether such a change would actually fix the problem?

All we can do is return broken parts to Berea.  Maybe they will find that the broken parts all were on the lower spec of the wall thickness, or something else common that you don't see when you only see 1 or 2.  And certainly can't guess if all you hear from customers is that they broke there...


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## scubaman

> _Originally posted by Firefyter-emt_
> 
> Now the real killer is that all they need to do is replace that junk plastic with metal like the Statesman/Gentleman style. That kis is much like the Churchill style, just the it has a metal thread over plastic.


???  Metal thread over plastic?  Not sure I follow...  the Gentleman style of pen has metal threads pressed into the main barrel.  The grip section is also metal.  Are you referring to the cap threads being plastic?

One thing I like about the El Grande is its light weight.  It is lighter than a Ligero, and MUCH lighter than a Gentleman.  I like the 'junk plastic' - a material used widely in the pen industry.  Start throwing more metal in the mix and the pen changes...  I think it is unfortunate that Berea, bowing to market pressures, went to more metal in the Cambridge, instead of fixing some recurring issues and keeping the pen light...  oh well...    Of course I do NOT like my pens breaking!!!

I am curious how PSI with their Olympian will make out.  Whether those same issues will plague that model...


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## Firefyter-emt

My point is they do not even need to re-tool how they make the coupler. If they designed it like the CSUSA kit there is pretty much no change in weight.

I do have to address the whole "Plastic widly used in the industry" point though.  Yes, they do use plastic for a lot of pens, 100% for some bodies. However show me ONE company that builds it the way that the Churchill is. No, they cut the thread right to the body. This is how they do not fail.  Quite honestly, the CSUSA kit very closely resembles the way the Montblanc I just picked up is made. They cap threads are cut on the nib holder itself.  

My main point is that the use of plastic is fine, but such a very thin band of plastic that has internal and external threads is too much to ask of the material.  The weight diffrence to make that paper thin thread portion into brass would hardly be felt.  The could also just do it the way the Ligero kit is and have the plastic much stronger at the cap & nib thread.


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## RogerGarrett

> Yet if you try to break one, it won't.  And most of them don't.  There is some as yet unknown element involved.  I wish i knew what it was.



The failure can also be caused by screwing the cap too tight to the body of the pen.  This weakens point at which it breaks (described earlier).  All it takes is a small hit to finish the break.

Best,
Roger Garrett


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## Bman40

I had a churchill break TWICE in one day!!

When I made my first closed-end ebonite Churchill, I was careful to use a press block and it made no audible cracking when assembled. However, everytime I threaded the cap on, it made a little 'crick' sound.  i broke on Satuday.  

I pulled it apart (actually I used a dremel to cut the inside of the plastic threads and the metal coupler holder and pride it apart with almost no damage to the pen body), and used a nib section from an El grande I had cannibalized... i got it all put together, and it rlled off the bench onto the floor (the pen has no clip) and broke again...just a bit of a wiggle in the thread , so I dripped some CA into the end and it held firm...

I am NOT please with this kit...I love the look and feel of the pens it makes, but this problem leaves me feeling uncomfortable and uncertain about the pens...wondering if they will break.

I made a new pen, also closed end ebonite with an El Toro kit - metal nib coupler and metal threads - seems more robust, but I dont like the design of the section as much....


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## Kaspar

[img}http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-11/493974/CambridgeRollerball-SilverandGT_w-BlackandGoldWeb-sm.jpg[/img]

The coupler on this one broke on me today.  Am I to understand I can fix it with a Ligero coupler?  Do I have to use the Ligero rollerball nib as well?  That's fine, since I'd use the rhodium Ligero for the fix and the nib will have the rhodium tip as well.


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## Ligget

I love the Churchill, however, I would not even give one away let alone sell one.

Once there is a decent fix available, like a change to metal threads where the plastic threads break, I will then fix all my ready made Churchills (approx 14) I have.[V]

For any new penmakers reading this, the problem is on both the fountain pen and the rollerball.


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## Firefyter-emt

Yes, from what I have found the Ligero tube is the same so you can use the all metal body coupler. You will need to use the one piece section as the Churchill section will not be the same. The Ligero section has the cap threads cut onto the section itself.  However, the cap threads are an exact match to the Churchill so the Churchill cap will thread right onto a Ligero section.

PS.. Section = the black plastic "nib" holder.  

A fix?? That might be hard, but with the new tap and die sets, I think you can find un-used original thread couplers eaiser.


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## redfishsc

> _Originally posted by ligget_
> 
> I love the Churchill, however, I would not even give one away let alone sell one.
> 
> Once there is a decent fix available, like a change to metal threads where the plastic threads break, I will then fix all my ready made Churchills (approx 14) I have.[V]
> 
> For any new penmakers reading this, the problem is on both the fountain pen and the rollerball.




Ligget's philosophy is mine. I love the Churchill and Elgrande, and I made myself one of each to test them, and sure glad I did, both broke on the same day. 



There is absolutely NO excuse for them putting out this kind of stupidity, and if I sound harsh, then GOOD, I refuse to buy these pens from them (EXCEPT the ElGRande parker-style, no nib coupler and fantastic twist pen, I love it!). 

What blows my mind is that they had the gall to put the same trashy coupler on the Cambridge and charge enough to buy a few dozen Snicker's bars for them. Sorry charlie, AIN'T HAPPENING. 


Both Berea and CSA have this huge fault that they will continue selling a seriously flawed product that they KNOW has a problem, but will give you this bullcrap line about "well we really don't hear a lot of problems about this". I never buy that line because of what I hear on this forum about people calling and complaining, and I'm sure we represent such a small percentage of pen makers. I've even had them admit the fault to me over the phone but say they have nothing in the works to fix it. WELL, GET SOMETHING IN THE WORKS meanwhile I'll spend my money on fishing tackle.


That being said, I still prefer Berea over CSA in several ways, though I choose their pen kits not unlike walking through a mine-field--- little by little, cautiously.


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## scubaman

I imagine you've called Berea and vented there also?  Offered to send the bad parts?  Of course you'll get more folks patting your shoulder saying 'there, there' here 

I honestly don't know what it is.  I have made a ton of these, very few have this problem.  That's still too many, of course.  But your hit rate of 100% is atypical I would say.


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## Ligget

If I purchased a pen and thought I had broken it when I dropped it or whatever I would not even consider contacting the place or person I bought it from.

So nobody can say for sure how many they sold have failed, they just have not had it brought to the penmakers attention yet!


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## redfishsc

> _Originally posted by scubaman_
> 
> I imagine you've called Berea and vented there also?



Not for this particular issue. I have found it largely to be a waste of time with Berea. They aren't the friendliest people in the world. They may send a replacement part, but I saw absolutely no reason to replace a defective part with a defective part-- I just epoxied the broken one back in and it does what a "fixed" churchill will do-- sit on my bookshelf as a decoration that serves no useful purpose (I just couldn't throw it out).


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## scubaman

> _Originally posted by redfishsc_
> 
> Not for this particular issue. I have found it largely to be a waste of time with Berea. They aren't the friendliest people in the world. They may send a replacement part, but I saw absolutely no reason to replace a defective part with a defective part-- I just epoxied the broken one back in and it does what a "fixed" churchill will do-- sit on my bookshelf as a decoration that serves no useful purpose (I just couldn't throw it out).



I don't think you can expect a resolution to your issue after a phone call.  I mean, a total design change.  If that's your measure of success, have no illusions.  But, you're obviously pissed, so why not tell them?  Discuss the details of your assembly process with them.  The only way we can get them to fix it is by enough people telling them.  Why not consider sending the faulty pens to them and have them replace the part, 'doing it right' (although I am not saying you're doing anythgin wrong - from their perspective having it assembled by them would be right).  See if it fails again...

It really irks me to hear all these stories and then people not taking the next step.  There are numerous issues with certain pens that I've run into, issues that SHOULDN'T be there but are.  If I call them, I hear I am the only one that notices.  If I talk to others I find out I am not the only one that has noticed - but nobody I talk to has called them.  THAT is the frustrating part.  Don't assume others have done or will do the work for you.  There have been times where we've been able to make a change.  Of course, in this case, they can't reproduce the issue.  And honestly, I can't either, I have tried to break this joint and have NOT been able to - but I have had a couple of fails.

As an example:  On the El Grande, the lower rim of the cap finial is larger than the trim ring sitting right under it.  On EVERY one.  It really pisses me off that 2 manufactured parts don't match!  Maybe a few people have pointed this out to them now, but you know what?  It is just very few.  Very few that even notice, fewer that care, even fewer that call the manufacturer.

Now I'm ranting...  sorry!  I guess I also need to vent at times


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## redfishsc

Scuba, I know you're right. Perhaps we could use the swarming bee effect on them? Perhaps an online petition and, if this to no avail, boycott of the repetitively defective items? 

Sign me up.


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## Ligget

I am sure the top man at Berea is reading this forum regularly as it is his business to keep up to date in the penturning environment.


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## redfishsc

> _Originally posted by ligget_
> 
> I am sure the top man at Berea is reading this forum regularly as it is his business to keep up to date in the penturning environment.



Seems that I recall that there was a head kangaroo from one of our suppliers that hung around here at times. I know a CSA rep will occasionally participate here (Eric).


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## brycej

Did someone listen? I just got this from Ernie at Bear Tooth Woods.
_Also, all El Grande, Churchill, and Cambridge fountain and rollerball pen kitssold from now on will include Berea's solid metal nib coupler sleeve. For the time being the kits will come with both the plastic and the metal sleeves and you can choose which you'd like to put on the kit._
​Sound like a good thing to me.


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## PTJeff

When I first started making El Grande's, I had a plastic nib break a few days after it was put together and I did take it back to BH.  The explanation was human error and was given a new coupler.  I really think that "they," whoever that is did listen, but only after enough time passed to make it a consistant report, not just the occasional complaint.

Didn't Anthony say he was getting Churchills with the metal coupler soon, maybe even additional spare parts?
This should make the kits more reliable.  That's what i'm all about when deciding what to carry in my line.


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## redfishsc

brycej said:


> Did someone listen? I just got this from Ernie at Bear Tooth Woods._Also, all El Grande, Churchill, and Cambridge fountain and rollerball pen kitssold from now on will include Berea's solid metal nib coupler sleeve. For the time being the kits will come with both the plastic and the metal sleeves and you can choose which you'd like to put on the kit._
> ​Sound like a good thing to me.





I am going to order some from Penworks when he gets them in, as I had already "agreed" to buy some from him (which I recommend, he's a great guy). I don't know if he's carrying the EG or Cambridge though.



 I think this will make for a VERY nice pen.


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## jeffj13

Did someone listen? I just got this from Ernie at Bear Tooth Woods.
_Also, all El Grande, Churchill, and Cambridge fountain and rollerball pen kitssold from now on will include Berea's solid metal nib coupler sleeve. For the time being the kits will come with both the plastic and the metal sleeves and you can choose which you'd like to put on the kit._


Is this just something that Bear Tooth Woods is doing or do you suppose kits from all suppliers contain both couplers?

jeff​


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## redfishsc

I dunno if they all will or not. 

I don't know if they will switch them all over to metal couplers. There are a lot of guys here that prefer the plastic couplers as well, so maybe there's plenty of room for both options (I still will not buy the plastic ones unless they change the thickness of the troubled area)


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