# Time taken to turn and finish a pen?



## dougle40 (Jan 8, 2005)

How long does it take you to assemble , turn and finish a $50.00-$75.00 pen for sale ?


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## dougle40 (Jan 8, 2005)

The reason that I've posted this pole is because there is a certain person on another forum that is knocking pen turners because , according to him , "A good pen turner can turn a good pen in less than 10 minutes and has only $6.00 invested in it and demands $50.00 or more for this pen ".
This particular person has actually gone as far as calling people "Egotistical SOB's" and "Morons" for not padding their price and haggling over prices.
I would just like to have some more information at hand so that I can go back and "Carve him a new one" .
Thanks


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## wpenm (Jan 8, 2005)

Doug,
I take my time because if I start rushing things it reminds me of working for so many years as a commercial trim carpenter. They always wanted quality work done at record speed. Now I just want to enjoy myself.


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## Bev Polmanteer (Jan 8, 2005)

It is hard for me to judge because I make 5 or more of the same style pen at the same time. Perhaps this person is jealous of the price we get for our pens. Also he doesn't realize that some of the kits cost as much as $20-$25 for the most expensive ones. Also some of the blanks cost $6! Most of us don't get anywhere near $50 for an inexpensive slimline.I think I'd just blow him off!


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## Fred in NC (Jan 8, 2005)

Right Bev!  I just don't get involved with troublemakers.  They have nothing better to do, and will argue until judgement day. Silence is the best medicine.


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## timdaleiden (Jan 8, 2005)

Turning with the skew takes me about ten minutes...but that does not include, cutting, gluing, squaring, sanding, finishing, and assembly. 

 I don't think I ever got more than $25.00 for a simple slimline kit. 

 The more that goes into a pen, the more that should be charged I guess. IOW, fancy kit, stabilized wood, inlays, etc. should increase the price.


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## Old Griz (Jan 8, 2005)

My posted time of 30 minutes does not include drilling, gluing and trimming or assembly time... since I usually do lots of 10 or more at a time and have a stand for the finished pens to sit in before assembly time.. 
For me slimlines are $15-20 pens depending on the wood or kit... I have no problem getting $50 or more for my bigger pens like the Cigars, DT Euros, 10K Rollerballs and Perfect Fit Convertables.. and alternative materials bring even better prices.  
One thing this jacka** may not realize is that we put as much time (or more) into learning the craft of pen turning as he did bowl turning... and have turned out as much stuff that was not saleable or reuseable... you screw up a bowl.. you have a smaller bowl or firewood... you screw up a pen, you are out a couple of bucks for a kit and blanks... most guys learning bowl turning are working with freebie wood... I know I am... LOL.. but there are a bunch of "Don't you dare show that to anyone" pens drifting around the house...


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## wayneis (Jan 8, 2005)

It's pretty amazing when someone who has never done something themselves knows more than the ones who do it daily.  This guy or gal obviously has no idea what goes into creating a pen that sells for $50.00 or more.  The only thing that he is close on is the actual turning doesn't take near as long to accomplish as the preporation and finishing does.  I do not keep track of the time involved in my pens on purpose because but I know for a fact that some of them I have several hours invested.  It starts with matching up a blank to the kit, it takes time trying to decide what blank you want to turn.  Then its getting the blank ready, cutting, drilling, gluing and squaring the ends up.  Then after you have turned the blanks comes the sanding, I never skimp on sanding as I feel that it is one of the most important acpects in getting a fine finish.  Then the finish just depend on what type one chooses.  I know that my method takes at least an hour or two per pen and then it assembly and at last a coat or two of wax.  On average it takes me three days to make a pen,  but I'm always working on so many that I am completing a couple each day. 

 Wayne


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## PenWorks (Jan 8, 2005)

Another BIC writer [8] Doug, I would like to see his post and where it came from. I would have no problem enlightening this jerk []

Just might make me feel better today []

Anthony


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## C_Ludwigsen (Jan 8, 2005)

I guess I am a slow pen turner.  While I do the cutting, drilling, tube glueing, and barrel trimming in batch, I do the turning, sanding, finishing all in one step and 1 pen at a time.  then I wrap the barrels in a paper towel and put them back in the pen kit bag until I'm ready to assemble.  If I have several to make, I'll assemble them 1 after another.  I did this approach at a recent club demonstration and turned 4 pens in 5-6 hours while talking through the process and interacting with the group all along.  Part of that was because I knew I was time limited.  In my shop, I can take my time.

With all that said, my pricing and my turning speed are unrelated.  I turn as a hobbyist, selling as much of my work as people want so I can afford the hobby.  Affording the hobby means paying for all supplies, contributing some profits to the home budget to help with all that electricity I'm consuming, and affording to upgrade my shop equipment on occasion.

If I priced my pens directly in relation to cost of goods and labor, then I would probably stop making them.  In comparison to my day job, to establish a labor 'run rate' would put my pens ALL at over $100 each.

The person you are debating doesn't appear to accept the premise that different people do things in different ways for different reasons.  If he did, he might have a more positive outlook on life...

BUT be encouraged with this.......

<b>c = d / pr</b> :: Change occurs (c) when dissatisfaction (d) exceeds the perception (p) of risk (r).  Whether the change will be positive or negative is up to us.


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## panini (Jan 8, 2005)

Takes me about 60-90 min per pen. Not that I'm a slow turner but my handicap slows me a little. But my wife thinks I'm too much of a perfectionist....lol......Not!!!!


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## btboone (Jan 8, 2005)

It takes doing them in larger batches to get the time down.  I probably did my last ones in less than the 10 minute range, but that was after the pens were designed and programmed and the process dialed in.  It certainly helps to have 1 minute cycle time, exact dimensions for the fits, using CAD generated dimensions to know exactly how far to press in the transmissions, and only slight hand buffing to get the glassy finish.  This only applies to acrylic pens, and finishing the wood ones takes longer.  If machine cleanup time is factored in, they may take longer.  If someone can do all that consistantly with a hand lathe in less than 10 minutes, they need to be careful to keep their cape out of the lathe.


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## Gregory Huey (Jan 8, 2005)

I have spent hours on pens that I would'nt sell for 50 cents and had pens that were tuned in a short time and I thought they were worth all the money. Bottom line is I take the time that it takes to make the pen past my test. Many Many times I will have more time in the finish than in the turning. If I want top dollar for my pens than they should be top shelf.


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## Fred in NC (Jan 8, 2005)

I can do a friction finish slimline pen in about 10-12 mins, from bare wood to finished.  That includes drilling the blanks. With my usual better finished pens, I batch process about 4 per hour, using 4 mandrels.  I turn, sand, and put the first coat, and go to the next pen.  Then I put the second coat on the first pen, etc.  

Sandpaper all ready to go!


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## daledut (Jan 8, 2005)

I come in at the 31-40 minutes, but that does not include cutting, drilling, gluing or squaring (since those were not mentioned in the initial poll question). Depending on the style and the wood, my pens range from 30 minutes to 1 hour total time from raw wood to assembled pen.


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## dwstevens (Jan 8, 2005)

My answer to this poll is that "it takes as long as it takes to do my very best." I've worked on segmented pens for weeks, including design cutting, glueing turning, blowing the whole thing up and starting over again. I've spent 7-8 minutes on a pen while doing quantity turning ie. Freedom pens at a turnathon. 

I don't really care what other's say about my prices or the time I spend on a project. I please myself and my customer. The naysayers that spend thier time on the sidelines taking potshots at other folks best effort can take a long hike off a short pier.


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## jwoodwright (Jan 9, 2005)

I like matching kits to materials.  I may drill a couple extra and then glue-up some extra kits.  I turn one pen to completion from the preped blanks.  I want my focus on the one I'm turning.  That way I can find the pen in the blank...[8D]

You know, look what I found in that piece of wood...[]


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2005)

> _Originally posted by dougle40_
> <br />The reason that I've posted this pole is because there is a certain person on another forum that is knocking pen turners because , according to him , "A good pen turner can turn a good pen in less than 10 minutes and has only $6.00 invested in it and demands $50.00 or more for this pen ".
> This particular person has actually gone as far as calling people "Egotistical SOB's" and "Morons" for not padding their price and haggling over prices.
> I would just like to have some more information at hand so that I can go back and "Carve him a new one" .
> Thanks



Send him a corn cob and a kit and tell him to turn a pen.
I was at a Christmas crafts fair last year and saw a lot of turners displays.Many had slimlines laying on a table or in a box.Definately they looked as though they were there as an afterthouhgt.
When I inquired as to how mauch they were and told the I also turned pens, the replies were around $15.0-$20.00 And usually added
"When I get rid of them that will be it"
The finish on these pens were something to be desired and they all were pretty much boring.No wonder they didn't sell.
THere was one tuener who had a nice display, well illuminated adn his booth was buzzing.
His pens were all solid woods and a few acryics and dymond wood.He was doing a good business.We had a nice talk.
I Imagine it's also attitude.


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## jckossoy (Jan 9, 2005)

I usually take anywhere from 1 hr to 2 to 3 hrs depending on the pen, amount of sanding, finishing, etc.  I have a friend that has spent three weeks on a pen doing an old fashioned french polish.  Some of the people that I've sold pens to couldn't believe it only took 90 minutes to make a pen, they thought much longer, which it did when I first started (then it took 2+ hrs).

Jeff


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## Fred in NC (Jan 9, 2005)

I am getting very curious about all this!  I know some pens will take some time to complete, such as corncobs, etc.  But let's talk about a basic pen so we can compare apples to apples. No beads, no stars and whistles, just a pleasing (not straight) shape. 

I cut blanks to size ahead of time, and put a rubber band around each set.  The centerband end of each barrel is marked so the grain matches later.

Drilling and gluing takes me 2-3 minutes per set of barrels.  I do a few sets at a time.

On the average, it takes me just a few minutes to turn, apply sealer, and sand a set of pen barrels.  This is for the common $20. slimline.  

Applying a coat of finish takes a minute at the most. I usually put about 4-6 coats on a pen.  Waiting for a coat to dry is not counted, since I work on another pen while waiting.

Pressing the parts together might take a minute at the most.

Where does the rest of the time go?  

------------------------------------
Note:  Of course, any additional features like beads, etc. take longer, but then the pen will sell for more.


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2005)

Fred-
You are right(maybe) about a slimine,
But the poll asked about pens$50.00 and up.
I don't do "Simple" anything anymore,too much competition and they are very boring.
I added time in for laminating  different woods and shapes.
My higher priced pens usually have a CA finish and I am not adept at CA finishing to do it it 6 minutes.
To modify a click so I can get a larger diameter without an all too common wasp waist takes time.
If I make a custom finial that also takes time.
It takes longer to prepare antler for turning because I work with antlers that came from deer that had a preference for the "curved" style.Not quite as simple as drilling a square blank.
Now that I think of it I may have underestimated the time.


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## C_Ludwigsen (Jan 9, 2005)

Fred, I may need to take some lessons on efficiency from you [].

But a couple things that take me longer...
1. My Vicmarc is temporarily sitting on my little tablesaw, so I'm currently cutting the blanks on my bandsaw.

2. Both my bandsaw and my drill press are configurations of my shopsmith, so it takes me longer than 2-3 minutes just to remove said bandsaw, move other stuff out of the way, adjust table position, lock casters, unlock ways, stand up shopsmith into drill press config, put the jacob's chuck on, align the blank centering jig, put the drill bit in and, FINALLY, drill the darn hole.  Thats why I do those in batch.

3. I don't pre-drill or pre-cut the blanks because most (read as all but a couple) of the pens I make come from the customer choosing a specific blank and pen style.

4. I do the CA or a multi-coat lacquer on every pen.

I think in general, the individual tasks in their purest forms probably take me as long as you.  Its just all that process stuff that tends to take the time away.

I guess I just want people to stop using time as a measure of a good pen!  If a highly-experienced, top-o-the-line turner finishes a pen in 30 minutes, then that actually might be LONGER than a person who has turned for a year, takes 2 hours, and is very methodical.  And both pens could be equally impressive.

By the way, according to my wife - who measures it from the time I walked out the kitchen door to the time I walk back IN from the shop, it takes me 2 - 3 times longer than I <b>TOLD</b> her it would take [].

Keep up the great pens, everyone.


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## tomwojeck (Jan 9, 2005)

I can generally do 2 classic american rollerballs (for argument's sake) in about 1 1/2 to 2 hours. This is from uncut blanks to assembly.  I only have 2 mandrels, so I'll do my cutting and gluing in batches of 2, then I'll turn one and put a finish on it (usually Behlen's woodturners polish).  Then I'll set that aside for a bit, turn the sencond pen and put the Behlen's on it.  After that I'll put the first pen back on the lathe for a coat of TSW and then I'll put TSW on the second.

Like others have mentioned, I'm just selling my pens to help pay for my hobby.  I have small kids around the house so my time in the shop is somewhat limited. I try to move briskly while at the same time I don't rush around because it becomes more of a chore than something fun to do.


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## wayneis (Jan 9, 2005)

The more that I consider this question I don't believe it is a reasonable question because there are so many variables.  Different kinds of blanks take different amounts of time to drill, turn and finish.  Different kits  are goint to have varying times because of the degrees of difficulty and steps.  And the biggest difference is the different finishes.  Finish times can vary from five minutes to five hours.  I've done CA, friction and Enduro and the times vary greatly.  So the only way that you can get a conclusive answer is to narrow it down even more, way more really.

Wayne


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## dougle40 (Jan 10, 2005)

Wayne,
That's why I specified a $50.00 to $75.00 pen . I wasn't talking about a slimline or some easy to turn pen .


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## Fred in NC (Jan 10, 2005)

Tough question!  It will depend on the kit, material, finish, and fringes (special shape, etc.).   Hard to answer without more specifics.  Some of the expensive pens are easy to turn anyway.


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## Gary Max (Jan 10, 2005)

I guess I am still a Rookie-- a good $50.00 pen--takes me at least a hour and sometimes I may spend several hours making just one pen. The more pens I make the more I demand that they are perfect. So time makes no difference in price to me I am after the quality.


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## wayneis (Jan 10, 2005)

Doug I don't know how long you've been making pens but for your information I could make a fifty dollar slimline.  You do not specify the blank type, you don't specify kit and you don't specify a finish.  Someone can take the most expensive kit and an expensive blank and it does not mean that it will make an expensive pen. 

Wayne


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## woodpens (Jan 10, 2005)

I sold a slimline for $180 once. I could still make it in less than 30 minutes. Actually, I sold it for another pen maker, but it is still not one that takes over 30 minutes. I think the intent of the question is to just get a good ballpark number for the average turner to make a pen in the stated price range. Sure. There are plenty of variables, but he probably didn't retain a lawyer to disect the answers. []


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## DCBluesman (Jan 10, 2005)

For a middle of the road pen, It can easily take me 5 minutes to figure out where to cut the blank for best exposure, another few minutes to decide on how I want to deal with the center band or lamination questions, a couple of minutes to drill, prep and glue the tubes, 5-15 minutes to turn depending on the shape(s) I want the barrels to take, another 5-10 minutes for sanding and sealing, then 10 minutes to an hour to finish depending on the look I'm tryin to capture.  Half an hour is doable but I think I'm closer to the hour time.  I've spent longer than that.  I also did a 10-minute pen.  It looks like it, but it was soup-to-nuts in 10 minutes. http://www.penturners.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1464&whichpage=1&SearchTerms=ten%20minutes

It really doesn't vary by price I expect to get, but more based on the experience I want to get from the effort.


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## Mike_O (Jan 12, 2005)

I answered 50 min +. I CAN turn a very nice looking 50+ pen in 10-15 min, but WHY??? Where is the challange in that. There isn't a lot of artistry in doing it that way. I would rather spend the extra time and customize the pen in some fashion. 

Many people can make a kit pen on a lathe, but just like everthing else in life, the experience, skill, and imagination of the turner will be reflected in the quality, form, function and finish of the end product. A fine example is almost any of Ed Davidson's pens. Everythime I think that he can't possibly come up with a more awesome design for a basic cigar pen, he posts new pictures to prove me wrong. 

By the way, Doug. Tell that weanie that is giving penturnes grief that $50 is cheap for a good pen. I just did a recreation of a Parker 51 fountain pen for a customer.It was made basically from scratch with the exception of a couple of vintage parts (those parts required restoration). This required 5 different size drill holes, 2 of which are tapers, 4 different sets of threads, a solid silver end finial, and a custom made music nib. A lot more time was invested than 50+ min, but for $450 it was worth it. Hell, I enjoyed it so much, I made another for myself.


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## Daniel (Jan 12, 2005)

I would geustimate that I have doen some in around an hour. and then there are some that I have spent days on. or at least portions of days. I started doing more creative things with blanks this year. so it spreads the time thing out more into a bit here a bit there. cutting drilling and gluing is not an easy process when you have to stop and decide just what angle you want this stripe or band to be etc.


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## Travlr7 (Jan 12, 2005)

It appears that the "Big Mouth" with all the answers never tried to turn a pen. Artesians alway have those that think the end results is overpriced. 

I can't remember the site, but a turner had a good answer for one of them. He was doing demonstrations and when the detractor said that the turner was charging too much and that he could do it, too.

The turner sead "GREAT, why don't you turn a small bowl for us?" The turner mounted a blank on the lathe and explained the basics of turning. After about an hour and a lot of "Catches" he had gotten the blank into a semblance of bowl with walls about 1-1/2" thick. The turner asked if he wanted to continue. He said,"No.... he had had enough." The man's wife had originally been looking at several pieces that totaled about $500.00. 

The detractor came back later and purchased the items his wife had wanted! I think this was noted as a "Super Gloat!"

All that said. Let's see. Once I mount the blank on the lathe, I will finish in about 20 - 25 minutes, including assembly. 

Since most of my wood comes from logs, I have to add in travel time, Chainsaw time, Log preperation, blank cuting time - after drying, drilling time, and blank trimming.

Per blank, that is at least another 40 to 50  minutes. So, overall it takes me more than an hour. 

Even if the kit only costs 4.95, the other costs mean that you're luck to be making 15.00 per hour, for something unique!

Just MHO, (sorry it was so long)

Bruce[]


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## jkirkb94 (Jan 13, 2005)

I take anywhere from 20 minutes for a simple slimline to 2hours for a complex pen.  Most take about an hour.  Have the other person try turning a pen and then see what he has to say! Kirk[8D]


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## jrc (Jan 15, 2005)

It takes me 7 1/2 minutes to turn and finish a slimline with one coat thin CA, two coats med. CA and three coats friction polish. Cutting and glueing blanks and assembly, maybe 3 minutes.
11 or 12 minutes total.  Price $20.00  Turned around 2000 last year.  

Hay Kirk I was in OKC last week and would of liked to touched base with you but never got an email back from you.


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## Woodcraft522 (Jan 22, 2005)

I like all the excitement on how long and how nice and how much to charge for your master pieces.
In August 2005 I will put up a challenge of $100.00 for the best turned pen in under one hour at the Pen tuners symposium in Peoria IL. For more info get a hold Richard Coers tell him Roger is backing this.
 I guess that guy is right   when your good your good  and can demand a price for your artistic abilities

I was a wood butcher er framing carpenter for a while and made a lot  why not on something that takes little bit of Ingenuity 
The guy is just jealous


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## epson (Jan 24, 2005)

It may take me from 1 to 3 hours depending on the material.  If Im doing an antler pen, it may take me longer.  I try to enjoy the experience, and the pen comes out better.


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## Guest (Jan 24, 2005)

I started reading this thread for the first two pages because there is no way I can turn out 1 "Quality" pen to my satisfacton in one hour.
I have never tried.
The thing I find ironic was teh complaint that pen makers charge exhorbitant prices for their work, and the argument was made as to how long it took to make a pen,then everyone starts bragging how fast they can make a pen thus prove the "loud mouths" opinion.
I have done what I call "down and dirty" slimlines.
No psrticular style,no custom centerband(no CB at all) and a "down and dirty Krystal coat(lokks good for a day  finish.
The shell casing pens I recently displayed take 3-4 hours to make, but then again I am slow.
Any way my observation is If you brag about how fast you make a pen and sell then for high dollar then the guy is right.
If it takes a couple of hours then the guy is talking out his tin (well you get the point)


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## Mike D (Jan 26, 2005)

I take at least 2 hours for a simple pen such as a slimline (straight barrel) and can spend up to 4 hours on a cigar or statesman
because I have high standards for the products that I craft. I am
not in it for the money but for the enjoyment that I get from my craft in knowing that I made something that is pleasing to the eye and because a pen is held more than say a bowl or platter and the touch is more accute flaws are more evident and therefore i spend more time fine tuning my pens. Lets not forget that we could spend
an entire day or more turning one pen as long as you enjoy it then
who cares what some wind bag has to say, Its your time!


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## woodscavenger (Jan 26, 2005)

JRC like your production style photos.  Pile of blanks drying, glued and trimmed.  How many mandrels/lathes do you own?  How often do you have to sharpen tools?

I liked you pen stands.  The heavy guage copper wire is a great idea.   What guage do you use? I like how you have a custom pen to go along with a custom holder.


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## wayneis (Jan 26, 2005)

Scott is re-writing my instructions and it will be posted as soon as I get some time to go over his changes.  I've had company and all sorts of distractions sence he forwarded it to me.  I'm hoping to get it back to him by this weekend.

Wayne


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## dougle40 (Jan 29, 2005)

Just thought that I'd post the latest from the person who's comments started this poll along with my answer to him .

Dog  
Registered User   Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 31  

Quote:
Originally Posted by dougle40
A while back there was a post in this thread stating that penturners could turn a $75.00 pen in 10 minutes and , as a penturner , this left a bad taste in my mouth . 




It doesn't take that long to turn a $75 or even a $175 pen, 10 minutes of actual turning time is far more than is needed to actually turn any pen. The prep work is a different story though. With all my prep work done and all my mandrels setup I can easily turn, sand and shella wax 10 to 12 an hour.

BTW I would never spend more than $10 for a pen kit and never make a pen out of material I can't readily get from my scrap bin or firewood pile or unless it is a special order pen or being made as a gift. 



Dog ,
You are obviously a far better turner that any of 131 people who posted their times to finish a pen on that poll , all of whom are very experienced pen turners and have probably turned more pens in a week that you have in your entire life.
The only thing that I can say is , I'd hate to see the quality of any pen that you've turned , especially knowing that all you use is scrap woods and cheap pen kits .
As for the price that you pay for kits , once again you very obviously don't care too much about the quality of your wares.
IMHO I personally think that you're just a blow heart who likes to hear himself talk even when you don't have a clue as to what you're talking about .
After reading all the posts that you have made on this forum , there isn't enough money in the world that would ever convince me to attend any seminar that you would be giving .
I'll pass along your last comments to the people who partisipated in the poll and see what , if any , comments they have to say about it.
__________________
Doug


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