# Are All Pen Turners Copy Cats?



## rd_ab_penman (Oct 3, 2010)

I had an interesting heated discussion yesterday.

The discussions was about how someone will come up with an idea on a material or process to make pen barrels and then everybody jumps on the band wagon and starts making or copying a version or variation the same thing.

Then after a while when a lot of pen turners have tried that idea or process they are onto copying the next idea that has been posted.

He suggested to me that very few pen turners have the initiative or imagination to come up with our own ideas and just copy what others have taken the time and inititive to come up with.

What do you all think?

Les


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## Smitty37 (Oct 3, 2010)

*So????*

That's life....humanity advances because good ideas are adopted by others....what if no one ever copied the guy who invented the wheel????


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## cowchaser (Oct 3, 2010)

I can see where you're coming from. I do agree with what was said about others copying. I guess it's just a matter of personal preference. Will I say I have never copied anyone? No, because I have. I agree about most not having enough imagination to come up with their own stuff. I admit I have absolutely no imagination. I am going through that right now with the wife. I am trying to get her to try something, but she always says she can't because she has no imagination. I can relate with her. It's hard when you have never been in an enviroment you have to have one. I wasn't raised that way and was only raised to work. At work I run a very complex system, but don't do anything on my own since the programs are already wrote, I just have to use them.


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## mredburn (Oct 3, 2010)

Innovative design is the single hardest part of any craft. But Copying other peoples work is what leads to variations and new designs built off the originals.  Some times the copies even lead to better designs or ways to make them.


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## hunter-27 (Oct 3, 2010)

I hereby give anyone who wants to downturn their skills to my level, permission to copy my work.:biggrin::wink:


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## knowltoh (Oct 3, 2010)

I love Smitty's reply.  That says it all.


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## Santacraig (Oct 3, 2010)

*Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.  I wish I was good enough , that someone would want to copy something I have done !*


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## DCBluesman (Oct 3, 2010)

*I believe this is called baiting.* How many of us claim that our work is 100% original innovation? I've said it before and I'll say it again, I make pretty wood pens. 



rd_ab_penman said:


> I had an interesting heated discussion yesterday.
> 
> The discussions was about how someone will come up with an idea on a material or process to make pen barrels and then everybody jumps on the band wagon and starts making or copying a version or variation the same thing.
> 
> ...


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## JerrySambrook (Oct 3, 2010)

I also have to ask,  Are there really any innovative or original ideas on this website as well?

I would be very hard pressed to say yes, as everything here is either a copy or a slight variation from some other thing that has already happened.

If effect, your friend is right, but then again, most everything in life at this time is just a copy of something already done.


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## alphageek (Oct 3, 2010)

DCBluesman said:


> *I believe this is called baiting.* How many of us claim that our work is 100% original innovation? I've said it before and I'll say it again, I make pretty wood pens.



I agree with Lou..  This thread is gonna bait people to the "heated" discussion you had.   I assume that discussion was in person... those tend to be easier to manage than online ones.

Lets all keep this civil so we don't have to shut it down.


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## JerrySambrook (Oct 3, 2010)

Dean,
      I think Lou was actually refering to the original discussion between the OP and whoever he was conversing with. I do not think this thread is meant to bait, but then again I have been known to be wrong. (Just look at my sig line)


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## Russianwolf (Oct 3, 2010)

yes.

Pens have been around for longer than any of us have been alive, so we are all copying the originals concept. :tongue:

But as said. Innovation is taking where someone left off and going further. There is an element of copying in that, but you never know when something fresh comes out of it.


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## ldb2000 (Oct 3, 2010)

They are all just pens , a device to put ink on a piece of paper , so none of them are truly original . If your using a kit then your chances for an original design are greatly reduced . The originality , in most cases , comes from HOW we put them together , materials used and the processes used to put the pieces together .


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## phillywood (Oct 3, 2010)

Smitty37 said:


> That's life....humanity advances because good ideas are adopted by others....what if no one ever copied the guy who invented the wheel????


 
Smitty, we would not be driving Porhe!:biggrin:


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## ldubia (Oct 3, 2010)

I am a fairly new turner and am proud to say I have tried to emulate some of the ideas I have found on here.  I can't say I have been totally successful but I like tom try new things.  It is called learning.  And I am excited about the idea of creating things with my own hands.  I am excited about learning to turn on the lathe.  I am excited to learn about how others do what they do.  Imagine what the world would be like if no one tried what others have done in the past.  Can you say stone age?

I watch these forums everyday several times a day at times to see what new things or variations are being done to give me ideas on where I could possibly try something.  However, what I have been seeing quite often is people bitching and moaning about each other, the work they do, how someone is copying something, or should they be concerned about suing.  WAKE UP PEOPLE!  This forum is supposed to be about sharing ideas so that ALL of us can learn to try new tings, praise others for their efforts, and grow in our craft.  If this is what this forum is turnig to then I don't think I want to be a part of it.  I get enough of the bull from my family, my coworkers, and people I meet on the street.  I thought when I joined this group i was going to be listening to a group of ADULTS excited about the craft they do.  Not a bunch of whiners complaining about who did what and how they are infringing on their artistic rights.  If you don't want people to copy, try your idea, DON'T show it.  You should b e proud enough of your work that if someone wants to try it, realize they are proud of your work too.  Otherwise why would they want to do something like it.  Come on people.  Wake up and let's stop the whining and moaning and get back to what we enjoy.  

I am sorry for the rant but I am really getting tired of this stuff.


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## phillywood (Oct 3, 2010)

What would you say if one of us come up with a pen that you just tell it what to do and it'll do it for you, that is original, other than that everything in life is copied one way or the other.


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## Texatdurango (Oct 3, 2010)

alphageek said:


> DCBluesman said:
> 
> 
> > *I believe this is called baiting.* How many of us claim that our work is 100% original innovation? I've said it before and I'll say it again, I make pretty wood pens.
> ...


 
I disagree with both of you and forsee a civil conversation as long as everyone keeps from trying to turn it into a war!

My example for the* civil conversation*.........

At this point in time with pen turning, very few ideas are shown that have not been tried before so in 99.999% of the time, we're doing nothing new, just repeating what others have done.

A few years ago I visited Curtis at his shop in San Marcos during one of the Central Texas IAP group get-togethers.

At that meeting I got to actually see how he did his worthless wood pens and he gave me lots of tips on doing them myself, actually he just walked us through the steps he takes.

I went home, bought some resin and started making my own "worthless wood" blanks and while my blanks aren't up to the same standards Curtis' blanks are, the people I sold the pens to were tickled pink and I continue to make the blanks to this day, to be included in pens I make.

I am no competition for Curtis and his pen business and he is no threat to me selling pens so everyone is happy making and selling pens and supplies.

The only line I won't cross is copying his work then turning around and competing with him on this forum or elsewhere selling just the blanks.  That is purely an ethical decision I made.

The good thing about this exchange of ideas is that someone will come up with a new twist or neat variation and others will make them then they will in turn try a variation and so it goes....... to everyones betterment!

And in my Forrest Gump imitation.....that's all I've got to say about this! :wink:


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## ldb2000 (Oct 3, 2010)

phillywood said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > That's life....humanity advances because good ideas are adopted by others....what if no one ever copied the guy who invented the wheel????
> ...


 
The problem with this thought is that if the wheel was just copied we would be just rolling our wheels around as we walked along . Innovation and imagination are REQUIRED to take the wheel and MAKE a Porsche . I always see folks here saying " I have no imagination " or " I could never do that " and that is the biggest problem . We ALL have imagination but some refuse to use it , it's far easier to take someone elses idea and copy it , hence my problem with tutorials (I'm not gonna get into this one so any comments about it will be ignored !!!) . 
As children we all have an active imagination but we are taught to not use them as we grow up by people who want things done their way . Resist !!! Never grow up !!! Think for yourself !!!


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## Billman (Oct 3, 2010)

I am a complete copycat.

I don't have an original thought in my head and probably never will.

So what?

I enjoy what I do, and I like learning from others here. I like to be able to share it with others who show interest in it, whether its in the pen itself or the process behind it.

Beyond that, it's moot for me.


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## Craftdiggity (Oct 3, 2010)

rd_ab_penman said:


> I had an interesting heated discussion yesterday.
> 
> The discussions was about how someone will come up with an idea on a material or process to make pen barrels and then everybody jumps on the band wagon and starts making or copying a version or variation the same thing.
> 
> ...



Who really cares?  If you don't want people to copy your ideas you are free to keep them to yourself.  Forums like this are for the benefit of all.  People come to this site to improve their skills and learn new ones.  It's pretty sad that we would whine about people copying our pen designs.  It's a hobby, for God's sake.


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## ctubbs (Oct 3, 2010)

Everything I turn is original.  All the errors, mistakes or whatever you want to call them make each one original one of a kind things.  Most of the things in this world are eveloutional not reveloutional.  Things evolve making changes on someones ideas that came form another someone.

Do I do anything completely on my one?  Not that I know of!  Even the great Einestine worked off someones thoughts and ideas.

Thanks for copycats.  If I ever do have a good idea, I truly hope someone will grab it and run with it to make something better.


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## Simplex (Oct 3, 2010)

Bad artists copy. Good artists steal.
-Pablo Picasso

So, as long as you steal the idea...you're good!


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## Smitty37 (Oct 3, 2010)

*Wife*



phillywood said:


> What would you say if one of us come up with a pen that you just tell it what to do and it'll do it for you, that is original, other than that everything in life is copied one way or the other.


 Well my wife already has that....she calls it Smitty.


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## Displaced Canadian (Oct 3, 2010)

I think what Butch said is true. If people copied the wheel we would just be pushing wheels around. When a new idea is posted I may try to make a copy just to see how it is done then I will take that idea and change/improve it to make it mine. The last blank I made is just a variation on a pinstripe blank. If I didn't make a pinstripe blank I never would have had the idea of how to change it.


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## Smitty37 (Oct 3, 2010)

*example*

Folks....the wheel is just an example...I could have said any number of things (the first bowl for instance), whatever material it was made from.  The point would be the same....all good ideas get copied and what a blessing it is that they do.


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## Texatdurango (Oct 3, 2010)

After posting I got to thinking about this topic and have a few photos I would like to share to illustrate my point.

A few years ago when I was just starting to flex my little pen making wings, I saw a pen that totally mystified me and I just had to make one like it, so off I went.

I spent untold hours, ruined countless pieces of wood until I finally figured out a way to *COPY* another pen. The first photo below is the pen I made trying to copy a design I had seen on the forum.

I was so tickled that I had learned how to segment pieces to make some pleasing designs that I started trying other things, one idea led to another and I soon came up with some pens that in no way resembled the pen I COPIED but all of them were inspirations of the original in one way or another.

The second photo below shows some of the other pens that followed soon aftewards.

So you see, COPYING someones work IS NOT A BAD THING, IT'S MORE OF AN INSPIRATION! And if memory serves, the individual who inspired me more than any other on the forum was (I THINK!) Richard DeArment (randbcrafts).

Richard, if you read this and it was your pen design that I copied, please post a photo of it so others can see that pens posted here can be inspirational rather than be seen as simply ideas to be pirated.


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## ldb2000 (Oct 3, 2010)

George has hit the nail on the head (as usual) , get inspired , copy to learn then make a thing that is truly yours . Most , if not all of the great pens ever shown here have been inspired by someone elses work but were taken to a new level . I have run the Penmakers challenges (inspired by something that Don Ward had done a few years ago) that show a pen and then challenges everyone to copy it and make it better . Learn how something was done then put that knowledge into making something that you can call yours , or just be a copycat and never inspire anyone else with your own ideas .


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## PenMan1 (Oct 3, 2010)

I have a folder on my computer of things that I really like from here. I look at those frequently. I rarely ever (intentionally, at least) make exactly the same thing someone else has already made.

BUT, I intentionally take several things from many artists here and incorporate them into my own design. A nib idea here, a material choice there, a hardware choice from somewhere else.

In particular, I like Barry's watch parts. Bruce Boone's puzzles, Keith's PC work, Alice and Jennifer's sea shell work, Curtis's cactus and worthless, Russ and William Young's finish technique, Don Ward, Bruce and John U'S casting techniques, Ed Brown and Roy's attention to detail, Lou's nib research and design, and Butch's hooded nibs.

Now, if I incorporate a little of each of these Artist's work in to my own concept, am I stealing or creating something new and unique for skills I learned from "willing" masters. Personally, I think Pacisso, Rembrant , Di Vinci would be honored. If the answer is "yes, you are stealing", IMHO this site should be closed.

Not meant to start an argument, but to stimulate intellectual debate. respectfully submitted.


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## jttheclockman (Oct 3, 2010)

Texatdurango said:


> After posting I got to thinking about this topic and have a few photos I would like to share to illustrate my point.
> 
> A few years ago when I was just starting to flex my little pen making wings, I saw a pen that totally mystified me and I just had to make one like it, so off I went.
> 
> ...


 

George, Those all look great. Hope you don't mind me copying:biggrin:


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## JeremyJ (Oct 3, 2010)

hunter-27 said:


> I hereby give anyone who wants to downturn their skills to my level, permission to copy my work.:biggrin::wink:



 you crack me up


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## soligen (Oct 3, 2010)

There are 2 kinds of innovation. Revolutionary and Evolutionary, and of course everything in between. Variations on a previous concept are definately evolutionary - in some cases improving on the original. Even a slight change from the original in my eyes has value. Any slight improvement, or alternate artistic expression, in my view has intrinsic value.


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## PenMan1 (Oct 3, 2010)

Dennis:
Great post! Without continued innovation, great ideas could have stalled at "ok, so what"

My case in point is Wilbur and Orville Wright. They just wanted to prove that it could be done, then quit. Where would space flight be, had no one carried on the work of these two?


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## soligen (Oct 3, 2010)

An interesting thing some may not know.  You can actually patent modifications to someone else's patented invention.  You cant actually use your own invention without permission from the original patent owner, but conversly, no-one can use your improvements without your permission.


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## chriselle (Oct 3, 2010)

Really about the only thing that leaves a bad taste in my mouth on this matter is the case of the large companies lurking around the pen making community looking for ideas.  Other than that, I agree with George....it's all inspiration.


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## jppensplus (Oct 3, 2010)

With this, and most other "arguments", I remain a pan-millenialist--that is to say---everything will pan out in the end--


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## ldubia (Oct 3, 2010)

Does this mean this is done and we can all go back to copying/stealing ideas and being creative in our changes of them???  PLEASE?  With acrylic on it?  and pearl highlights?


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## avbill (Oct 3, 2010)

Back in the old days 1960/1969 there was black and white photography and then all of a sudden color photography became popular. in wedding photography.   I continued black & White photography for a small part of the wedding.  About 1988  other photographers started B/W in their wedding.  " It a New frontier in Wedding photography" No it was not a new frontier.  Were they copying me NO!  It was just a cycle.  I went off experiencing with color slide  being processed in color negative processing and started a new trend.  I encouraged other photographers to do the same.  

Walking the crest of creativity is hard work for the few It rewarding to be the leader of the pack. 

I thank those people like Eagle  who have lead pen turners to better creative heights.  I believe Eagle wanted you to challenge yourself to go beyond your present ability To think beyond the master .  

 I have many ideas that I want to do that have been done by others.  I'm still challenged with the Indian Blanket segment pen blank.  One day I will accomplished it.  Then who knows!  Did I copy somebody else work  No  I just expanded my knowledge beyond the master.  I am the master, the master is me!   It's all about learning something new for yourself.   Thank God many of you share your ideas freely.  And I thank you for that!


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## Texatdurango (Oct 3, 2010)

Woohoo......... I just found the pen I mentioned above, the one I tried to *COPY*, the one that inspired me to make my segmented pens and sure enough it was made by Richard. If you follow this link and look down to 07/23/2007 you will see the pen.  http://www.penturners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1430

Actually, if you want a trip down memory lane or just to see some marvelous creations, go to the home page and just under the photo of the month, click on the teeny tiny link that says "Pre June 2008" or just click http://www.penturners.org/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=55

It's a shame many of those folks are no longer around the forum. :frown:


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## Drstrangefart (Oct 3, 2010)

I have to throw my two cents in. I see ideas I like, I wanna try them. If I'm trying to make a copy or a variation, it means I REALLY liked what I was trying to copy. And then I incorporate bits and pieces of the process in other areas, or apply them to different materials. I always hope at least one person likes my work enough to copy it, but I'm just starting to get my feet under me. I will be turning some top end stuff one day, but for now it's doing the best I can with the most basic materials and process. And I'm totally at peace with all of that.


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## Smitty37 (Oct 3, 2010)

*Not Exactly*



PenMan1 said:


> Dennis:
> Great post! Without continued innovation, great ideas could have stalled at "ok, so what"
> 
> My case in point is Wilbur and Orville Wright. They just wanted to prove that it could be done, then quit. Where would space flight be, had no one carried on the work of these two?


 
Your point is well taken but they didn't exactly just quit after Kitty Hawk. They continued flying, formed an airplane company and continued to build "flyers" (including some for the US Army) at least into the teens when they really kind of got surpassed by others. They did train a lot of pilots including the rather well known General "Hap" Arnold


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## rd_ab_penman (Oct 3, 2010)

Thanks all for you comments.

I told him I have no problems with some one copying or using any of my ideas. If I didn't want something to be copied then I don't post it for all to see.

We all copy each others work in one way or another, be it a variation in design or process.

The only problem I have is people who want to know how someone did something without even taking any initiative to try it on their own.

In the past I have done up many tutorials on my variations of process and design for all to share.

Les


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## DurocShark (Oct 4, 2010)

For the record... If I somehow come up with something original, you independent penmakers have my permission to copy me.

If, however, you are a company mass producing pens or pen making supplies, I want a cut and credit.

Not that there's any risk of that happening. :wink:


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## fernhills (Oct 4, 2010)

I wish it was all that simple. "just copy"  is not that easy.  Carl


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## TellicoTurning (Oct 4, 2010)

Texatdurango said:


> After posting I got to thinking about this topic and have a few photos I would like to share to illustrate my point.
> 
> A few years ago when I was just starting to flex my little pen making wings, I saw a pen that totally mystified me and I just had to make one like it, so off I went.
> 
> ...



George,
Those are some phenomenal pens... do you mind if I TRY to copy them... I haven't done any segmenting yet, but I see all the guys who do and they are such nice work, when I get some more time and talent, would like to give them a try... 

Like has been said here, sometimes my imaginarium doesn't work all that well and I look to the internet for inspiration... not to copy but to aspire to.


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## kinggabby (Oct 4, 2010)

Ok just my 2 cents worth please don't take this wrong ( I mean this in a good light ) The pen makers on here want to be copied. The way I get to that is how many times has someone argued about how much better their finish is that too fat does not look right too thin is not good either. And us newbies want to copy that's why we post pictures of our pens and ask "what yall think ? " The way I look at it is that I could either be happy because someone wants to be like me or that I want to be like them . Or they could be upset and feel like people are stealing from them . Personally I would be happy if someone thought I was that good. As for me I am just trying to make a good pen for a good price to make a profit.


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## Parson (Oct 4, 2010)

I've done my best to imitate or knock-off the best segmented pen makers I have found on this forum and the web... and not one of my finished pens looks identical to theirs. In fact, most take a left turn somewhere in the creation and I go with a different design or color combination. BTW, if anyone wants to copy the pen designs I finally end up with at the end of the day, knock yourself out. It would be flattering.


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## Texatdurango (Oct 4, 2010)

TellicoTurning said:


> George,
> Those are some phenomenal pens... do you mind if I TRY to copy them... I haven't done any segmenting yet, but I see all the guys who do and they are such nice work, *when I get some more time and talent*, would like to give them a try...


 
Chuck... and others,

I see comments like... "one day when I'm good enough..." all the time and I think most folks under estimate themselves.

Take my pens above as an example, they are no more difficult to make than any other pen, they just require a few extra steps.

Let's take one red blank and one gold blank and some thin black veneer material.  Rip both blanks into strips about .200" wide then sandwich together the three different colors...red-black-gold-black-red!  Now mix som epoxy and apply a coat of glue between the sandwich pieces and clamp using just enough force to hold the pieces together without squeezing the glue out and keeping the pieces square.  When dried, simply sand the edges smooth and you should wind up with a "regular" blank about 3/" square.

Then it's just a matter of cutting the blanks into pieces to form the design you want then glueing those pieces back together then drilling and turning just as you would a common blank.

Sorry for the mini-tutorial but it just shows how easy it really is to make unique blanks... often from scrap material and doesn't require a master pen maker to accomplish the task! 

So as a challenge of sorts, surf the library untill you find a design you like and try to make one then post in the SOYP forum for all to admire.  I'll bet we could come up with some nice pens!  If anyone is interested and gets stuck on something, just send me a PM and I'll be glad to help where I can since I am still "shopless" and have some time on my hands.


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## TellicoTurning (Oct 4, 2010)

Texatdurango said:


> TellicoTurning said:
> 
> 
> > George,
> ...



Hey George, 
I wasn't underestimating myself... I was hoping to flatter you... I'm sure I could do one of the segmented blanks similar (not like) yours, and will try one in the near future... right now I have too many shows going on and need to concentrate on keeping inventory up to do much exploring new techniques.... I'll have plenty of time to play after Christmas.   I do a number of segmented pepper mills and they sell very quickly...


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## Dudley Young (Oct 4, 2010)

phillywood said:


> What would you say if one of us come up with a pen that you just tell it what to do and it'll do it for you, that is original, other than that everything in life is copied one way or the other.


I made one like that but I couldn't speek chineese.


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## rbooher7526 (Oct 4, 2010)

*copy cats??*

I sure am glad some one copied the wheel design. They even improved upon it - so much improvement I now spend as much on my tires as I did for my first car. The biggest praise you can give is to want to "make one" I try them all. Of course I don't claim any as my own idea. My wife is tired of me telling her about a pen I saw and want to make. Gee keep the ideas coming. I am brain dead, but I love trying to be as good as everyone else.:biggrin:


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