# copying work, yes you copycat.



## edstreet

Ask Harriete: Copycats, Copycats, Copycats

Quite a good read and something that everyone should read.

I came across this article recently on copying work of others.  Something that I see very large amounts here in the pen turning community, however there are a great deal of other communities with this same problem going on so I am not picking on the pen turning market.  With thread topics like http://www.penturners.org/forum/f18/cant-create-but-can-do-122841/ causing several artist to walk away from posting, showing work or being active in discussions I felt it was good to share this advice and hopefully open a healthy dialog with the community on this subject.


----------



## glenspens

Copycats  or not a copycat....I for one have/ had pens i made  before i ever found this forum or any forum for pen making and guess what ....when i get here i see pens that look like some i have made so does that make me a copycat or does it make them a copycat  I think not  i think that we create,copy what ever you want to call it from things we see or do everyday BUT if you look at someones work and make the same thing down to the last mark or turn then yes copycat you are


----------



## keandkafu

I always thought that when someone posted something you like or makes a statement, you want to try it also.  If no one copied Henry Ford, we would not have the multiple car choices we have. Every time I copy someone's work, or I should say, try to copy, I try to improve on it and add my touchs. If someone were to copy my works (never going to happen ) I would be flattered. I don't think any of us out here are that worried that someone will copy our work and make millions!  I do it for the personal satisfaction and the fun, after all isn't that why we are all here?  Just my two cents for what it's worth.

Kevin


----------



## William Menard

More important is to give credit to the one your copying from. Had we not copied the art of making bread we would all be dead. I see copycats all the time in the food industry, but when I see someone copying something I came up with, I am honored but quite honestly their isn't much in life that hasn't been tried, most often its just forgotten for a while then brought back to life by a copycat. My .02


----------



## Joe S.

This is a penmaking community, all it really breaks down to is showing off and learning (copying) from the people showing off. What exactly is "don't make your own, buy from the master" going to accomplish? The ask Harriete article felt like a rant to me.


----------



## WriteON

If my pens get copied I'm honored.


----------



## Krudwig

My tag about original thought comes for the inability to remember where we have seen or heard it before has a lot of truth to it. There are very few truly new ideals that are not copied look at phones and web sites someone did have an origional thought but once it was made public it was quickly copied. I would think that if we believe something is truely new and invintive that will be valuable then we have means of protecting it via pattens and copywrite laws, otherwise if you show your work it's free game to be duplicated .


----------



## Smitty37

*Limited Flexibility*

Since people are often dealing with a 2 - 3 inch tube of a pretty specific diameter, there are fairly severe limits on exactly what one can do.  Almost everything done will be similar to something  that's already been done.  The same is true with shapes there are only so much you can do on a spinning lathe so there will be a lot of shapes that are similar.  

Regarding a "new" idea, unless the maker takes specific action to protect the idea (meaning it is something really new) someone else will copy it. Now in some cases copying will be difficult and involve a great deal of work in others it will be easy and not involve a lot of work.  In the last instance more people will copy it than in the first.  I would use JohnU's feather blanks as an example of the first instance.  I wouldn't personally try to copy them because it would take so much time and effort that I'd rather just send John a check.


----------



## BSea

Copying the work is one thing.  Copying a name is another.  I would have no issue with making a realistic cigar pen.  But in no way would I market it as a Cigar Illusion pen.  And I realize that unless there were a registered name, then legally it would be ok, but IMHO it wouldn't be ethical. 

I agree with Smitty, there are only so many ways to turn a pen, and only so many materials.  If we only were to show totally unique pens in the SOYP forum, there might be 5 threads a month.

And I agree with Joe S.  the Ask Harriete article sounded like a rant.  And what's funny is she titles her page "Ask Harriete".  I think she's fine with selling her advice on how to copy her work, she just doesn't want to give it away.  As is her right.  But saying it has a negative effect on the art & crafts industry is absurd, and sound petty to me.

Oh, and for the record, I've tried to make a feather blank.  I didn't do to well, and it never became a pen.


----------



## GaryMGg

The article is from a web site offering/selling "professional advice for the A&C community."
As such and in that context it has some validity.
There are certainly times when Copying is illegal.
There are absolutely times when it's unethical and immoral.
Granted, there are some opinionated statements which can't be supported:
For example, "instead of buying the work of their art or craft hero, they create sub-quality unauthorized knock-offs."
I know a number of people who saw an idea & copied it with vast improvements.
I know some who haven't.


----------



## Big

Hasn't it been said that imitating or emulating are the highest forms of flattery?


----------



## Falcon1220

Lets close down the library and all post in the forum on "how to" 
If we dont we run the risk that these things may be copied by someone.


----------



## sbell111

First, let me say that I'm sorry that I read that rant.  She's butt hurt because random people are 'copying' her for their own use rather than buying her stuff.  Somebody call her a Waambulance.

She's also wrong on the law, in my opinion.  As I understand it, there is no law against a person painting a copy of another painting for their own enjoyment.

Related to Ed's apparent point in creating this thread, I differ with his opinion.  I see nothing wrong with someone posting a picture of a pen and someone else creating one like it.  Further, I see nothing wrong with a person making their own blanks rather than paying an inflated price for similar ones.


----------



## kovalcik

IMO, sometimes we artists/craftsmen give ourselves a bit more credit than we deserve.  To paraphrase a term used in the patent world, most of our ideas are "obvious extensions of the art".  A good example is something like the stamp blanks people are making.  It was a clever idea to stick stamps on a tube, but it is an extension of the the basic art of sticking objects to a tube, be it snake skin, feathers, chyogami paper, maps etc., then casting the tube.   No real innovation.  Where the seperation  comes in is in the artistic sense you have in choosing the stamps and fitting them around the tube to best show them off.  Then there are the skill of the learned mechanics of doing a crystal clear, bubble free casting.  

Most of the people in the different turning/pen/woodworking groups that I belong to seem to understand this because they are more than happy to tell you exactly how to do a particular technique as far as the mechanics.     

With all respect to Ms. Berman, I think her article is pleading for a level of protection that is not really due.  Her rail against "Fair use" is proof of that. To put it simply, if I can easily duplicate your work from a quick glance at your booth or an online picture, maybe it is not all that innovative after all.


----------



## Timebandit

My opinion, is that the ones worried about someone else copying their work are the people directly involved in craft show or art show circuits, mainly because the are afraid that other turners/whatever craft maker, at the same shows may be selling the exact same products but at a lower price, bringing the value or their wares down. One person comes to mind, Andy, that apparantley left us recently. He never shows any pens, even if you look for them, you will only find a few that he has ever posted on IAP, but yet he was revered as an making amazing pen maker, but got questioned all the time about his credentials because he talked a lot, but never showed anything. He never showed them becasue he was active in the circuit and didnt want other turners too copy him and show up at the same show as him with the same products. I dont do craft shows and am not worried about anyone copying me. Thats why i freely show my work here. Even if i were to do PEN shows, i wouldnt be worried. Almost everything has been done before, and i am confident in the beauty of my product that i care not if the guy next to me has a similar product at a lower price. My product will sell itself. Sure full on copying is one thing, but without my product in their hand, they cant copy it exactly, it will only look similar. I say copy away, see if you can make it better than me. If you can, i applaud you. If you cant, i applaud you for trying. Copying really is flattery to me. Someone liked my stuff so much, that it inspired them to make something similar. I inspired them to try something different that they possibly never would have tried before. Ill take that anyday. Im here to help the penmaking community, no stifle it with "these are my designs and no one can make one similar, so im not going to show my work, and if i do, im going to get my feathers ruffled if someone makes something similar". I say copy on penturners. This is a craft, and we are all part of it. We are all here to learn to make better pens. Thats what IAP is for. Not to argue over i made that first, or that looks to much like mine. Thats why we have a library with hundreds of articles detailing how to "Make it Like Me" persay. I will be the first to say, "I encourage all of you to copy me freely". If you can make it better than me, or have a better/easier method, lets talk about it. Im here to learn too!! Copy on!!


----------



## Boss302

Although it can be frustrating at times for people that sell their products, copying is just a fact of life for businesses small and large, which is why you need to be constantly evolving as an artist to keep your products ahead of the copy-cats.


----------



## Edward Cypher

I only have a problem with the article in that there really is nothing new under the sun.  The jewlery pieces in the article are nice but I have found the same pieces in Egyptology books dating back to Ancient Egypt.  So did these artist in 2012 Copycat.  Many things we turn have also been turned before and forgotton or were ahead of there time and proved to not have a market so were lost for awhile.

I do admit there are some very neat things on this site and I do try to give credit if I copy a pen.  There is also new technology that gives way to new ideas which crafters capalize on.

I guess I figure if I "create" something incredible no one else will do it perfectly because it takes a lot of time and practice and mistakes even with a tutorial.  It would be like me copying Sheamus (sp?) quarters I could come perhaps close after destroying 10's of dollars worth of quarters but they probably will never look as clean and crisp as his.  Yet doing cut outs of coins is nothing new we were doing this in the 70's with the last of the silver coins to make jewlery and using a hand copeing saws.  I have found in books neck wear that was done with roman coins back when the emporers were in power and it was against their laws to ruin a coin with the reigning persons pic on it.  This is not to pick on Sheamus his stuff is outstanding and beautiful as we all know.  But something similar was done decades ago to make pendants and ring.  So what exactly constitutes a new idea???

I think as long as you give credit where credit is due, that is the important thing and that you do not try to sell it under the name of the current Professional.  Just my 2cents worth.  Not trying to cause a fight just one relative newbys view.


----------



## southernclay

She copycatted the name for her Op Ed...just sayin

I don't believe it is possible to not copy. Not in pen making, not in arts/crafts, not in life. 

I do believe creativity is a beautiful thing, I try to be creative in what I do. I haven't come up with any new ideas with pens. I did do something that I thought was so it was at least a creative and new idea...to me.

Ed, I think you are just pushing for more creativity which I agree with. At the same time there's going to be some copying. The more creative we all can be though the more it gives others new ideas to copy:biggrin: Myself included


----------



## Smitty37

Think of it like this. If you make a pen barrel using a nice burl wood blank (somebody had to be first to use wood for the barrel) you are copying...if you make a pen barrel with an acrylic regardless of the color or pattern, you are copying.  The center of the debate then seems to be what is ok to copy and what is not ok.  PSI got a US patent on one of their kits, and claim trade mark on some others.  Outside the USA their patent isn't worth the ink it took to print it several makers have offered them to me for less than PSI charges but I respect the patent.  Berea tried (unsuccessfully I'd guess) to claim trade mark rights on the Sierra name.  But that would not have meant the kit couldn't be copied only that we'd have to name it something else - which a lot of us did anyway.

Most pen blanks could not be patented, they just don't issue patents for 5-6 inch long pieces of material. Even if the material itself could be patented (and probably some of them are) the pen blanks made from it could not.  

The name for a particular pen blank might be trade marked but that does not keep anyone from copying anything but the name.  The blank could be copied - we see that on here even for some tools, they are not patented and we see the same tool show up with a different name, because the name might be trade marked.

The short answer is - if you come up with something good it will be copied.  The matter is not if it will happen, it is simply when it will happen.


----------



## vtgaryw

There was a great show on "Ted Talk" on NPR this past weekend, "What is Original?"  I didn't catch the whole show, but when I have a bit of time, I intend to go back and listen:

What Is Original? : TED Radio Hour : NPR

The lines are very blurred.  Many, many, many (most, in fact) inventions, works of art, songs, literature, etc. "borrow" heavily from those that went before us.  There have been very few genuinely "eureka" totally new ideas or works created.

That said, there are limits to how much copying is too much.  

I assume that if a pen turner posts a detailed "how to" article in the library, the design is fair game.  That said, I still try to put my own twist on them all to add a little uniqueness.

Gary


----------



## Krash

I guess I understand what made Harriete write this, and her arguments are somewhat compelling considered in a vacuum, but I don't track with her on a larger scale. True masters are not defined by their medium or broad technique, they use the medium and technique to express their creativity and emotions at the time of production. I think that is why they say imitation is the highest form of flattery. The admirer can only attempt to reproduce the result and while a talented craftsman may be able to do a respectable job, the master just moves on to create another masterpiece, not because of a new technique but because of the original emotion put into it. Those that rely soley on a secret technique are probably only craftsmen that have found something reproducible and marketworthy that sets them apart from the other craftsmen. A true artist could care less who's following them. 

Her statement is telling:
"The innovator, lacking a market for selling their work may ultimately relent to teaching a workshop purely for economic survival. Or the master might feel obligated or pressured to teach these copycat workshops by the very admirers of their work."

She throws the word "master" around pretty liberally and attaches it to the word "innovator". I assume she considers herself a master innovator.

But again, I think a master just goes on with his business of expressing him/her self in whatever medium is at hand. New innovation or not, the master creates original work that others wish they could do.


----------



## Akula

I didn't read all the posts but anyone who is buying blanks from someone or some vendor all run the risk of the pens looking the same.  Being able to duplicate casting resins is what makes someone good at casting.


----------



## Smitty37

vtgaryw said:


> There was a great show on "Ted Talk" on NPR this past weekend, "What is Original?"  I didn't catch the whole show, but when I have a bit of time, I intend to go back and listen:
> 
> What Is Original? : TED Radio Hour : NPR
> 
> The lines are very blurred.  Many, many, many (most, in fact) inventions, works of art, songs, literature, etc. "borrow" heavily from those that went before us.  There have been very few genuinely "eureka" totally new ideas or works created.
> 
> *That said, there are limits to how much copying is too much*.
> 
> I assume that if a pen turner posts a detailed "how to" article in the library, the design is fair game.  That said, I still try to put my own twist on them all to add a little uniqueness.
> 
> Gary


True enough, but the question is how much is too much and the answer is totally subjective.


----------



## kovalcik

This quote that Krash used raised a couple of thoughts with me:

Her statement is telling:
"The innovator, lacking a market for selling their work may ultimately relent to teaching a workshop purely for economic survival. Or the master might feel obligated or pressured to teach these copycat workshops by the very admirers of their work."


1) If the innovator cannot sell their work, then there would be no damage to them by other people copying the work. 

2) If the work is not marketable (which I equate with not liked)  who would want to copy it?


----------



## Smitty37

kovalcik said:


> This quote that Krash used raised a couple of thoughts with me:
> 
> Her statement is telling:
> "The innovator, lacking a market for selling their work may ultimately relent to teaching a workshop purely for economic survival. Or the master might feel obligated or pressured to teach these copycat workshops by the very admirers of their work."
> 
> 
> 1) If the innovator cannot sell their work, then there would be no damage to them by other people copying the work.
> 
> 2) If the work is not marketable (which I equate with not liked)  who would want to copy it?


 Conversely if there is no market for it why would I want to attend a workshop on how to make it?  The second reason does make some, but not much sense.  A master might have a lot of reasons for teaching a workshop including that his "product" is selling faster than he can make it.  A master plumber might find his services in such demand that he will hire and train new workers who can only do perhaps half the job but it does release him for the more important aspects.


----------



## sbell111

Akula said:


> I didn't read all the posts but anyone who is buying blanks from someone or some vendor all run the risk of the pens looking the same.  Being able to duplicate casting resins is what makes someone good at casting.


I'm reminded of a vendor at one of the big shows that we sell at.  Her pens are really well made, but to my eye, her booth looks like the PSI catalog threw up.  She doesn't have anything unique because she buys all of her kits and blanks off the rack.  Customers have seen her stuff in dribs and drabs from every other pen maker that they have ever seen.


----------



## Dan Hintz

My main money maker is electronics (at least it was in years past).  It's one of the few (only?) areas I can be truly creative and create things no one else can/has.  Plenty have wanted to copy my projects, told me straight to my face, and my reply is always the same... I wish you luck.  If they're willing to put in the time/effort to recreate what I've done, more power to them.  If they manage to improve on what I've done, then I'm impressed.

But I don't begrudge them for wanting something I have created.  If they want it, they have two choices: 1) Buy mine, or 2) Make their own.  I know the satisfaction of deciphering someone else's work (part of the reason "reverse engineering" is in my resume's skillset), and I know the satisfaction of doing a job yourself.  If they're willing to put in the time and energy to copy me, they deserve their well-fought booty.

From an artistic standpoint, I am not a "creator"... my muse spends the majority of her time plastered, and the only thing that makes her perk up is when she sees someone else's beautiful work.  It gives her ideas, which causes me to try and not just recreate what I see, but create plus.  I try to take it to the next level.  But to get to that next level, I often have to reach the same level that gave my muse her ideas... which looks like copying.  And it is.  But not only that, it's working out the kinks and perfecting a skill.

I see copying as flattering.  It's pretty arrogant to think because you chose a specific style of paper to put on a pen that you own the idea of any paper... or bottlecaps, or stamps, or, or, or...  I would guess I see something truly unique in pens about once every few months.  For that few minutes, I marvel at the quality of the work, the true artistic nature of it.  And then I go back to seeing the same kits that I and everyone else makes day in and day out.  But man, those unique pens sure do inspire my muse...


----------



## beck3906

Stealing Intellectual Property at the Art Fairs - Art Fair Insiders


----------



## Smitty37

beck3906 said:


> Stealing Intellectual Property at the Art Fairs - Art Fair Insiders


This is talking specifically about copyright violations related to photographing their work. I don't pretend to know anything about that, I know performers normally ban camera's from their performances so it must have some validity. That being said, it is an argument that just does not hold up if you take a picture yourself and post it in a public domain like this forum.
Anyone can both study it in detail and print it. With respect to pens and pen blanks, I believe much more copying is done through this media then at Art Shows.


----------



## Whaler

After reading all of these posts, was bored and had nothing else to do, I think everyone that is capable should create something new and different so the others have something to copy.
To me the whole thread is childish crap.


----------



## Daju

I once knew a Frenchman. A very skilled craftsman and excellent model builder. I mean in the days when physical rather than virtual architectural models were highly sought after. His mantra was " I'll do it for you but I won't show you how." Unfortunately he passed away before he could see to the continuation of his skills. So the question is, are true apprentices considered copycats?


----------



## beck3906

Protecting intellectual property.....

Does Penn State protecting its bolt action count?

And what about Jeff Powell?  He's invested hundreds of hours writing code for his blanks.

What will be said when this style blank floods our shores?


----------



## Janster

....well then, can I  now not expect ANYONE to make a Masking Tape based pen?...:wink::wink:


----------



## seamus7227

sbell111 said:


> Further, I see nothing wrong with a person making their own blanks rather than paying an inflated price for similar ones.



I have my own opinion on this subject, but it is apparent that the masses out there are all about "copying" rather than supporting the within the group so I wont waste too much of my breathe. However, the highlighted comment above begs the question, "what determines whether or not a blanks price is 'inflated' or not?"  After all, does the person questioning that "value" truly understand the amount of time and work that was put into creating them? 

  I would much rather spend more time turning blanks(that i purchased from a blank maker) and assembling pens, than trying to figure out how it "might" have been created.


----------



## maxwell_smart007

Innovation comes from imitation.  Aristotle observed, thousands of years ago, that humans learn from imitation.  This instinct begins in the cradle - we'd be naiive to think it stops when we grow older. We imitate, and then we permutate.  Otherwise, we'd all still be writing with feathers!


----------



## Displaced Canadian

Just because someone is walking behind you doesn't mean they are following you. They may just be going in the same direction.


----------



## Holz Mechaniker

maxwell_smart007 said:


> Innovation comes from imitation.  Aristotle observed, thousands of years ago, that humans learn from imitation.  This instinct begins in the cradle - we'd be naiive to think it stops when we grow older. We imitate, and then we permutate.  Otherwise, we'd all still be writing with feathers!



Sounds about right...
Noo It is exactly right.


----------



## sbell111

seamus7227 said:


> sbell111 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Further, I see nothing wrong with a person making their own blanks rather than paying an inflated price for similar ones.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have my own opinion on this subject, but it is apparent that the masses out there are all about "copying" rather than supporting the within the group so I wont waste too much of my breathe. However, the highlighted comment above begs the question, "what determines whether or not a blanks price is 'inflated' or not?"  After all, does the person questioning that "value" truly understand the amount of time and work that was put into creating them?
> 
> I would much rather spend more time turning blanks(that i purchased from a blank maker) and assembling pens, than trying to figure out how it "might" have been created.
Click to expand...


Obviously, the person who is making the 'make or buy' decision is the one who determines whether the price is appropriate.


----------



## JP61

:usflag: Seeking copyright protection for newly developed anti-whine suppository medication.


----------



## Dan Hintz

seamus7227 said:


> sbell111 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Further, I see nothing wrong with a person making their own blanks rather than paying an inflated price for similar ones.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have my own opinion on this subject, but it is apparent that the masses out there are all about "copying" rather than supporting the within the group so I wont waste too much of my breathe. However, the highlighted comment above begs the question, "what determines whether or not a blanks price is 'inflated' or not?"  After all, does the person questioning that "value" truly understand the amount of time and work that was put into creating them?
Click to expand...

I'm at an age (and tax bracket) that purchasing can often be much easier than making my own... but I still weight every decision with a financial risk/reward ratio.  But sometimes you just want to make it yourself for the fun of it.  You know you can do it, the cost will be half of a pre-made blank, you're looking for something to do this weekend, so you go ahead with it.  You could pay $10 for that blank, or you could spend $2 in parts and 4 hours in time... even a McDonald's employee salary says that pre-made blank is more cost effective, but you make it anyway, because you're a hobbyist.  If my business depended upon pen sales, I would more heavily consider buying the blank outright and be done with it.



seamus7227 said:


> I would much rather spend more time turning blanks(that i purchased from a blank maker) and assembling pens, than trying to figure out how it "might" have been created.


That's likely because you don't have "The Knack".  See here:
Dilbert - The Knack "The Curse of the Engineer" - YouTube
I (and others) truly enjoy figuring out how something was done.  It's a sickness.

I recently saw a blank here that I liked, so I asked the maker if they did it via process 'X'.  Nope, so I tweaked my description some and got a "getting closer" answer.  On my next try I nailed the process.  So I figured out how they did it.  In return, I offered several ways I would have done it, which gave the blank maker a new (and possibly faster) way of doing it, as well as offering up a wider variety of styles.  I didn't just steal the idea, I improved upon it, and gave the improved idea back.



JP61 said:


> :usflag: Seeking copyright protection for newly developed anti-whine suppository medication.


Do you apply it to your whole head? :wink::biggrin:


----------



## JP61

Dan Hintz said:


> JP61 said:
> 
> 
> 
> :usflag: Seeking copyright protection for newly developed anti-whine suppository medication.
> 
> 
> 
> Do you apply it to your whole head? :wink::biggrin:
Click to expand...


Directions will be clearly printed, in seven languages.


----------



## edstreet

Perhaps what I should have added in my original post was this:

There are a number of examples we can come up with to justify the need to copy others.  

In the broad sense we are all copying each other as we are all 'pen turners'.  

However, the real meaning I feel may have been lost, that was the 'turning point'.  At what level of copying is it no longer good and healthy but becomes problematic, unhealthy, immoral, unjust and overall 'bad'.


----------



## Krash

edstreet said:


> Perhaps what I should have added in my original post was this:
> 
> There are a number of examples we can come up with to justify the need to copy others.
> 
> In the broad sense we are all copying each other as we are all 'pen turners'.
> 
> However, the real meaning I feel may have been lost, that was the 'turning point'. At what level of copying is it no longer good and healthy but becomes problematic, unhealthy, immoral, unjust and overall 'bad'.


 

Probably when an exact copy is produced then you pronounce it to be your own idea or creation, possibly trying to indict the original to elevate your own. That introduces the concept of intent.


----------



## Wildman

Since many of us buy the same woods, plastics and pen kits from the same vendors not sure about copying.  Like to think majority of us all victims of simultaneous design.  

Not sure many people here today will remember Eagle.  Eagle made some very interesting pen blanks.  He loathed telling anyone how he did it, because did not like copiers.  His brutal honesty got him suspended or kicked off many message boards.  He advocated developing your own style and not being afraid to try.  I admired the man’s talents, outlook on life and pen turning.   

I also agree a lot of what he had to say.  If you want to step out of the world of simultaneous designed pens go for it!  Develop your own style!

Besides Eagle, have seen too many outstanding creative & innovating pen blanks produced by other pen turners here.  Some have been very gracious sharing their procedures with us, some have not.  I appreciate just looking at your creative & innovating pen blanks are amazing. Thanks for sharing!


----------



## Dan Hintz

edstreet said:


> At what level of copying is it no longer good and healthy but becomes problematic, unhealthy, immoral, unjust and overall 'bad'.


You're asking a question that can only be answered by an individual, and that answer will have anywhere from zero to complete agreement from any other random person.  It's an opinion, so trying to categorize the answer as black and white will get you nothing but frustration.  You (via Toni) have received a personal shock to the system from someone recreating an item, and you're looking to make sense of it all... you have to accept that life doesn't work that way.

First and foremost, you have to define what a "copy" is, and I will bet a shiny new nickel that you will not get everyone to agree on an exact definition.  Is it looks?  If so, to what level of detail?  Is it material?  If so, does it matter if two different materials look the same?  I could easily create a pen that looks identical to someone without a microscope and micrometer in their back pocket... but merely picking the two pens up, writing with them, etc. can/will show a tremendous difference.


----------



## JP61

As I'm sure you know, there are laws regarding Intellectual Property Rights. If you're looking for facts you should probably contact an attorney in the field. Here, most likely you'll receive semi-informed opinions or copy/paste replies.


----------



## Wildman

When conversation among crafters gets into the area of copying, intellectual property rights, patents or copyright law discussions get stupid fast! 

Why? Not sure anyone here can afford an attorney to defend them against someone copying, stealing their intellectual property, infringing on their patent or copyright you are talking federal courts.  Most attorneys will not even entertain defending you!

Go look at the last survey poll asking how much you made last year? If you are one of those pen turners making 5, 6, or 7 figures a year making and selling pens you are definitely a big fish in a small pond. Doubt any attorney’s will take your case to a federal court. 

Knock-offs (copies) only need minor changes to sink your case.  We are talking pen making here so forget intellectual property, patent, and copyright violations. 

Majority of those cases mentioned get settled out of court, only the millions and billions of dollar cases go to trial.


----------



## Smitty37

Ed, we unfortunately live in an age when morals have become relative, we've moved to the point where there are no absolutes when it comes to what is morally right.  That being the case I couldn't even attempt to answer your question.


----------



## mbroberg

edstreet said:


> Perhaps what I should have added in my original post was this:
> 
> There are a number of examples we can come up with to justify the need to copy others.
> 
> In the broad sense we are all copying each other as we are all 'pen turners'.
> 
> However, the real meaning I feel may have been lost, that was the 'turning point'.  At what level of copying is it no longer good and healthy but becomes problematic, unhealthy, immoral, unjust and overall 'bad'.



That is one o those "I can't define it but I know it when I see it" type of issues.

edit in:  As Smitty implies, the "turning point" will differ from person to person.


----------



## edstreet

Smitty37 said:


> Ed, we unfortunately live in an age when morals have become relative, we've moved to the point where there are no absolutes when it comes to what is morally right.  That being the case I couldn't even attempt to answer your question.



The questions posed was to be based on *YOU* and where you stood on the matter, no one else, just you.



Dan Hintz said:


> edstreet said:
> 
> 
> 
> At what level of copying is it no longer good and healthy but becomes problematic, unhealthy, immoral, unjust and overall 'bad'.
> 
> 
> 
> You're asking a question that can only be answered by an individual, and that answer will have anywhere from zero to complete agreement from any other random person.  It's an opinion, so trying to categorize the answer as black and white will get you nothing but frustration.  You (via Toni) have received a personal shock to the system from someone recreating an item, and you're looking to make sense of it all... you have to accept that life doesn't work that way.
> 
> First and foremost, you have to define what a "copy" is, and I will bet a shiny new nickel that you will not get everyone to agree on an exact definition.  Is it looks?  If so, to what level of detail?  Is it material?  If so, does it matter if two different materials look the same?  I could easily create a pen that looks identical to someone without a microscope and micrometer in their back pocket... but merely picking the two pens up, writing with them, etc. can/will show a tremendous difference.
Click to expand...


This actually has nothing to do with Toni nor does it have anything to do with me. I posted the original and the follow up more as a curiosity and not based on any current events, i.e. redskins.




mbroberg said:


> edstreet said:
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps what I should have added in my original post was this:
> 
> There are a number of examples we can come up with to justify the need to copy others.
> 
> In the broad sense we are all copying each other as we are all 'pen turners'.
> 
> However, the real meaning I feel may have been lost, that was the 'turning point'.  At what level of copying is it no longer good and healthy but becomes problematic, unhealthy, immoral, unjust and overall 'bad'.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is one o those "I can't define it but I know it when I see it" type of issues.
> 
> edit in:  As Smitty implies, the "turning point" will differ from person to person.
Click to expand...



And that is exactly what I was asking for.  Also this is *NOT* a situation that came up, this was just a personal question for the each member of the group.


----------



## NewLondon88

I won't rehash what's already been said.. I think people know where I 
stand  when it comes to intellectual property and I know that many don't 
agree  with me. But I do think there's a vast difference between developing 
a  product and bringing it to market only to have it copied (and then sold 
right  back in the same venue where they got the idea in the first place) vs 
seeing  something you like and emulating it.    So I'll only make a couple of 
points that I didn't see anyone make yet.  (perhaps I missed them)  

Do you recall anyone EVER saying "Gee.. I developed XYZ Widgets 
and now there's  three people copying them and undercutting my price. I'm 
so  flattered!"  ? 

Why is it that the people who think the creators  should be flattered seldom  
seem to be the same  people that create something original themselves?    

Why do so many people think that taking someone else's idea is 'sharing' ?    

Too often I see variations on "If you don't want people to steal your 
ideas, don't post them in the forums"  I don't understand that  logic.. 
It sounds too much like "If you didn't want me to peep in your windows,
you shouldn't have left the ladder in the garage."
I always thought the forums were where your friends congregated.   I've 
learned differently now, and that's one of the reasons I don't come here  as 
much as I used to.    

I think that "f you don't want it stolen, don't post" also  goes 
hand in hand with "Why haven't we seen Joe Smith posting  anything 
lately?"

I think the answer is simple. He accepted your terms.


----------



## Dick Mahany

I had the pleasure of attending the AAW symposium in San Jose last year.  There were many esteemed, famous artisans and I was humbled to be able to see their work first hand and then attend individual seminars.

Nearly every one of them is a true artist and their work stands alone without peers, yet they collectively shared one common trait.  They are so confident of themselves, yet so willing to share their techniques, that they went into painstaking details on how they do what they do.  Why, because they love to perpetuate the art and the craft, yet they know that they are at the top of their field and don't worry about copycats since their work stands out on its own merit.  Many of them challenged us to try something based on their skills and find a new or different avenue to explore! 

I was expecting elitism, perhaps snobbery, but came away absolutely amazed with their freedom of sharing and encouragement.  Wish I could see the same in this instance.


----------



## Smitty37

*OK My Personal Take*

OK Ed you said "The questions posed was to be based on *YOU* and where you stood on the matter, no one else, just you"  

The answer for me is this---every pen I have ever turned is probably a "copy" of something that someone else has made. 

That being said, I will personally never copy something akin to what Toni R or John U or Gary N or many other people has done - I named those three because I have bought items from all of them.  Perhaps this is simply because I don't want to put that much work into a pen, I don't attempt to make pens for a large profit and I have no curiousity about how they do it.  But, at any rate I wouldn't do it myself.  

However while each of their works may be somewhat unique, it is not identified on the piece itself as their work. In addition  they are selling in a *mass *market where they cannot possibly fill the demand for the products they offer.  Hence I do not think it is immoral or unethical for someone else to move into that market, nor do I think, marketing their products as they do, that they should have any expectation of not being copied if they are successful.  That is Economics 101 in a free market society.  

You might or might not agree with me but I personally do not think Art (where the artist is not identified on each piece) is sold in a mass market no matter how good it is.  The market they are selling in is a commodity market so in my opinion they are selling a commodity.  *Pen Blanks*....thousands sold every day in hundreds of places, by hundreds of sellers - if anybody comes up with something that sells, someone else will probably try to get in on the action.  And that, like it or not is the way it works.


----------



## Timebandit

NewLondon88 said:


> I won't rehash what's already been said.. I think people know where I
> stand  when it comes to intellectual property and I know that many don't
> agree  with me. But I do think there's a vast difference between developing
> a  product and bringing it to market only to have it copied (and then sold
> right  back in the same venue where they got the idea in the first place) vs
> seeing  something you like and emulating it.    So I'll only make a couple of
> points that I didn't see anyone make yet.  (perhaps I missed them)
> 
> Do you recall anyone EVER saying "Gee.. I developed XYZ Widgets
> and now there's  three people copying them and undercutting my price. I'm
> so  flattered!"  ?
> 
> Why is it that the people who think the creators  should be flattered seldom
> seem to be the same  people that create something original themselves?
> 
> Why do so many people think that taking someone else's idea is 'sharing' ?
> 
> Too often I see variations on "If you don't want people to steal your
> ideas, don't post them in the forums"  I don't understand that  logic..
> It sounds too much like "If you didn't want me to peep in your windows,
> you shouldn't have left the ladder in the garage."
> I always thought the forums were where your friends congregated.   I've
> learned differently now, and that's one of the reasons I don't come here  as
> much as I used to.
> 
> I think that "f you don't want it stolen, don't post" also  goes
> hand in hand with "Why haven't we seen Joe Smith posting  anything
> lately?"
> 
> I think the answer is simple. He accepted your terms.



I have to respond to this because i think my reply in this thread, not necessarily by you or anyone specific, might be taken the wrong way. I implied that i encouraged everyone to copy my work. And i do, beause i really dont care, it is flattering to me. I am sharing that. I make pens, i dont make blanks, molds, vacumn chambers, bushings, or any other product that i sell to make a profit to the penturning community or the general public. I dont do art shows, so i have no competition there. I may come up with something original some day, who knows, and ill show it off here when i do, but it will still just be a pen. My remark was only reffering to my situation and maybe anyone else in it. I understand if you make a special blank, like seamus, or the great molds that you make, or any other product that you guys make and sell on here or at art shows or just in general that has nothing to do with pen making. Im sure if i made a product like you guys i wouldnt like someone stealing my ideas. Just wanted to make that known.

But, im also like someone else here who commented. I like to make things mysef. Not because i think anyones prices are inflated or anything else. I just like to make things mysef. Some things not, like seamus coins, i just dont have the patience for that. But i did try feather blanks, snakeskin, and shell blanks at one point and was gonna do watch parts, before i switched to the "dark side" of penturning. I dont make them to sell to pen makers, but only to make pens to sell. I get pride out of saying that i made that blank, not bought it from someone else and i just turned it. Again this is not for profit from the selling of the blank  or anything else for others to use, for my own personal use. I guess im a coppier, in the artistic sense, not the mass produce product profit sense.  I have some of your great molds and I wish you and the others well in your ventures.


----------



## seamus7227

NewLondon88 said:


> I won't rehash what's already been said.. I think people know where I
> stand  when it comes to intellectual property and I know that many don't
> agree  with me. But I do think there's a vast difference between developing
> a  product and bringing it to market only to have it copied (and then sold
> right  back in the same venue where they got the idea in the first place) vs
> seeing  something you like and emulating it.    So I'll only make a couple of
> points that I didn't see anyone make yet.  (perhaps I missed them)
> 
> Do you recall anyone EVER saying "Gee.. I developed XYZ Widgets
> and now there's  three people copying them and undercutting my price. I'm
> so  flattered!"  ?
> 
> Why is it that the people who think the creators  should be flattered seldom
> seem to be the same  people that create something original themselves?
> 
> Why do so many people think that taking someone else's idea is 'sharing' ?
> 
> Too often I see variations on "If you don't want people to steal your
> ideas, don't post them in the forums"  I don't understand that  logic..
> It sounds too much like "If you didn't want me to peep in your windows,
> you shouldn't have left the ladder in the garage."
> I always thought the forums were where your friends congregated.   I've
> learned differently now, and that's one of the reasons I don't come here  as
> much as I used to.
> 
> I think that "f you don't want it stolen, don't post" also  goes
> hand in hand with "Why haven't we seen Joe Smith posting  anything
> lately?"
> 
> I think the answer is simple. He accepted your terms.




I think that sums it up right there! Very good Point Chuck!


----------



## seamus7227

Dan Hintz said:


> That's likely because you don't have "The Knack".
> 
> Oh i have the "Knack" or I wouldnt have created what i make. I know the addiction all too well.
> 
> I recently saw a blank here that I liked, so I asked the maker if they did it via process 'X'.  Nope, so I tweaked my description some and got a "getting closer" answer.  On my next try I nailed the process.  So I figured out how they did it.  In return, I offered several ways I would have done it, which gave the blank maker a new (and possibly faster) way of doing it, as well as offering up a wider variety of styles.  I didn't just steal the idea, I improved upon it, and gave the improved idea back.



I simply would like others to respect my choice as to whether or not i would like or not like to share any or all specifics about the blanks i make. I cant tell you how many times people have prodded me time and time again about sharing my technique with the world. This is of course in regards to the tru-quarter™ blanks, not the snakeskin stuff. Its the stuff that has somewhat driven me away from the active status i used to be. And i really dont care how many people want to say that i'm whining, IM NOT, so get over it. Anyway, thats my opinion.


----------



## Smitty37

seamus7227 said:


> Dan Hintz said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's likely because you don't have "The Knack".
> 
> Oh i have the "Knack" or I wouldnt have created what i make. I know the addiction all too well.
> 
> I recently saw a blank here that I liked, so I asked the maker if they did it via process 'X'.  Nope, so I tweaked my description some and got a "getting closer" answer.  On my next try I nailed the process.  So I figured out how they did it.  In return, I offered several ways I would have done it, which gave the blank maker a new (and possibly faster) way of doing it, as well as offering up a wider variety of styles.  I didn't just steal the idea, I improved upon it, and gave the improved idea back.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I simply would like others to respect my choice as to whether or not i would like or not like to share any or all specifics about the blanks i make. I cant tell you how many times people have prodded me time and time again about sharing my technique with the world. This is of course in regards to the tru-quarter™ blanks, not the snakeskin stuff. Its the stuff that has somewhat driven me away from the active status i used to be. And i really dont care how many people want to say that i'm whining, IM NOT, so get over it. Anyway, thats my opinion.
Click to expand...

Semus, I have to admit that how you do it is one of the things I'm curous about.  I don't think I've ever asked but I can assure you that if I do it will not be because I intend to copy your work.  I think that as a repeat customer, I am more than happy to just let you do it.   Actually I'm really only curious about part of the process (How you get those LBJ sandwiches thin enough.  If you do the cutting with a scroll saw, I can only say your are pretty d*** good at it and have a lot more patience than I have.


----------



## Dan Hintz

Smitty37 said:


> how you do it is one of the things I'm curous about.  I don't think I've ever asked but I can assure you that if I do it will not be because I intend to copy your work.  I think that as a repeat customer, I am more than happy to just let you do it.


I think a lot more of us than like to admit are curious about how something is made... it's the natural curiosity of man.



Smitty37 said:


> Actually I'm really only curious about part of the process (How you get those LBJ sandwiches thin enough.  If you do the cutting with a scroll saw, I can only say your are pretty d*** good at it and have a lot more patience than I have.


On one of the islands I visit during my cruises (might be St. Marteen, I'll have to pay more attention my next trip), there's a guy who sits outside scrollsawing coins, silverware, etc.  He's quick!  A quarter goes down in 10-15 minutes, and everything is by hand, of course.  He's also using a full-thickness quarter.  Sanding a coin down to 1/4 of its original thickness would not only speed the cutting process, but give it the flexibility to bend without breaking.

But like you said, I'm (mostly) content with letting other people do the work.  I may make one some day just to prove to myself I can, or convince myself I have all of the process kinks worked out, but I won't be trying to compete with another blank maker.


----------



## edstreet

I ran into an episode recently involving a trademark item, the discussion went something like this.



> me: that is a trademarked item, you need approval from the holder to use it on a pen.
> 
> pirate: As long as the company does not see the product there is no harm done, besides I am not mass producing these.
> 
> me: So what you are saying is it's ok for me to sleep with your wife but there's no harm done as long as you don't find out about it?



This plays out far to frequently.




Chevota Guy said:


> I had the pleasure of attending the AAW symposium in San Jose last year.  There were many esteemed, famous artisans and I was humbled to be able to see their work first hand and then attend individual seminars.
> 
> Nearly every one of them is a true artist and their work stands alone without peers, yet they collectively shared one common trait.  They are so confident of themselves, yet so willing to share their techniques, that they went into painstaking details on how they do what they do.  Why, because they love to perpetuate the art and the craft, yet they know that they are at the top of their field and don't worry about copycats since their work stands out on its own merit.  Many of them challenged us to try something based on their skills and _*find a new or different avenue to explore!
> *_
> I was expecting elitism, perhaps snobbery, but came away absolutely amazed with their freedom of sharing and encouragement.  Wish I could see the same in this instance.




What you saw was exactly what the hosting org wanted attendee's to see.  What you did *NOT* see is these same members who were freely giving out info bending over backwards to freely give super detailed info to stalkers who wanted to be them, because NO ONE does that or wants that situation to happen to them or others.  Stalkers who are obsessed fans who does everything they can to imitate, copy, produce, sell and pass themselves off as that person.  A person who is producing cheap knockoff's of their work and selling it to the public as the artist's work.  The reason you did not see this is because _**NO ONE**_ wants that to happen to them.

Many do not worry about copycat's as they have not seen a copycat and how destructive they can be, nor given it much thought.  Having seen the destructive powers of a stalker first hand and how devastating it can be to an artist anyone will very quickly change their tune.

The other note worthy entry about this post is this.  Typically when you have low participation interest, low population and the like you will see more and more people super eager to share the nitty gritty details like this in hopes of attracting more people into the field so it can grow (this is the mission of AAW btw).   We to have seen this very same thing here on IAP.  However, we also have seen things become stagnant with several making false claims of "nothing new to develop, explore, invent or use"  These are the non-creative, the hopeless and the same one's who will be knocking off your work because they are starving for something new, something to bring them to the next level and something to push them ahead in the rat race and they do not care what happens to others or to the community.

Also worth noting, AAW is a large outfit who has rules and a formal setup, a 501(C)(3) and a staff; While IAP is more mob rule and group think mentality.  Also groups like AAW (among others) collectively frowns upon copycats.  What they encourage is individual expression in that medium, as seen in the original post that I took the liberty to bold, highlight and drastically increase the font size.  

Also if you were to ask the AAW what they thought about IAP, you would be told to keep all the drama over on IAP as AAW does not want it over there and it's not welcomed in any manner.

If you do a search here on IAP (something that is a foreign concept to most I feel) you will quickly find there are countless post after post dealing with techniques, methods, applications, guides, detailed detailed and detailed.  Not only will you find one method you will find MULTIPLE methods.  So yes you do have the same thing going on as well.

Also sadly I am somewhat saddened and ashamed that we have not heard from the admin, Jeff, on this topic.


----------



## Smitty37

edstreet said:


> I ran into an episode recently involving a trademark item, the discussion went something like this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> me: that is a trademarked item, you need approval from the holder to use it on a pen.
> 
> pirate: As long as the company does not see the product there is no harm done, besides I am not mass producing these.
> 
> me: So what you are saying is it's ok for me to sleep with your wife but there's no harm done as long as you don't find out about it?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This plays out far to frequently.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Chevota Guy said:
> 
> 
> 
> I had the pleasure of attending the AAW symposium in San Jose last year.  There were many esteemed, famous artisans and I was humbled to be able to see their work first hand and then attend individual seminars.
> 
> Nearly every one of them is a true artist and their work stands alone without peers, yet they collectively shared one common trait.  They are so confident of themselves, yet so willing to share their techniques, that they went into painstaking details on how they do what they do.  Why, because they love to perpetuate the art and the craft, yet they know that they are at the top of their field and don't worry about copycats since their work stands out on its own merit.  Many of them challenged us to try something based on their skills and _*find a new or different avenue to explore!
> *_
> I was expecting elitism, perhaps snobbery, but came away absolutely amazed with their freedom of sharing and encouragement.  Wish I could see the same in this instance.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> What you saw was exactly what the hosting org wanted attendee's to see.  What you did *NOT* see is these same members who were freely giving out info bending over backwards to freely give super detailed info to stalkers who wanted to be them, because NO ONE does that or wants that situation to happen to them or others.  Stalkers who are obsessed fans who does everything they can to imitate, copy, produce, sell and pass themselves off as that person.  A person who is producing cheap knockoff's of their work and selling it to the public as the artist's work.  The reason you did not see this is because _**NO ONE**_ wants that to happen to them.
> 
> Many do not worry about copycat's as they have not seen a copycat and how destructive they can be, nor given it much thought.  Having seen the destructive powers of a stalker first hand and how devastating it can be to an artist anyone will very quickly change their tune.
> 
> The other note worthy entry about this post is this.  Typically when you have low participation interest, low population and the like you will see more and more people super eager to share the nitty gritty details like this in hopes of attracting more people into the field so it can grow (this is the mission of AAW btw).   We to have seen this very same thing here on IAP.  However, we also have seen things become stagnant with several making false claims of "nothing new to develop, explore, invent or use"  These are the non-creative, the hopeless and the same one's who will be knocking off your work because they are starving for something new, something to bring them to the next level and something to push them ahead in the rat race and they do not care what happens to others or to the community.
> 
> Also worth noting, AAW is a large outfit who has rules and a formal setup, a 501(C)(3) and a staff; While IAP is more mob rule and group think mentality.  Also groups like AAW (among others) collectively frowns upon copycats.  What they encourage is individual expression in that medium, as seen in the original post that I took the liberty to bold, highlight and drastically increase the font size.
> 
> Also if you were to ask the AAW what they thought about IAP, you would be told to keep all the drama over on IAP as AAW does not want it over there and it's not welcomed in any manner.
> 
> If you do a search here on IAP (something that is a foreign concept to most I feel) you will quickly find there are countless post after post dealing with techniques, methods, applications, guides, detailed detailed and detailed.  Not only will you find one method you will find MULTIPLE methods.  So yes you do have the same thing going on as well.
> 
> Also sadly I am somewhat saddened and ashamed that we have not heard from the admin, Jeff, on this topic.
Click to expand...

Ed, I don't belong to AAW.  I do belong to other wood working organizations.   That being said - I do know that symposiums are generally held for the purpose of *SHARING* information, both with others in the field and (sometimes not too often) the general public.  AAW in fact states its mission: "our mission to *provide education, information, and organization* to those interested in turning wood."  My emphasis.

The Vendor booths are typically there to provide information and probably are mostly company's who sell wood working tools showing off their latest offerings. Or, they maay be demonstration booths.  I say that because I have attended many symposiums and conferences in my field as, a presenter, a panal member, and as an attendee.  My expectation would be for a woodworkers symposium to be about the same format.

The 501(c)(3) just says they are a not for profit organization and says nothing about size or purpose.  It's just the non-profit version of a 501(K) pension plan.


----------



## sbell111

edstreet said:


> ... If you do a search here on IAP ... you will quickly find there are countless post after post dealing with techniques, methods, applications, guides, detailed detailed and detailed.  Not only will you find one method you will find MULTIPLE methods.  So yes you do have the same thing going on as well.
> 
> Also sadly I am somewhat saddened and ashamed that we have not heard from the admin, Jeff, on this topic.


Just so I understand the point of your post, is it correct that you want Jeff to step in and stop people from sharing their methods?


----------



## Smitty37

*FYI*

Just for information here is the IAP Mission Statement.

Mission Statement:
The International Association of Penturners (IAP) is an organization that recognizes pen making as a craft with unique and distinctive character. Pen making encompasses a vast array of techniques, materials, technical knowledge, and novel approaches to produce a functional, aesthetically appealing writing instrument. The goal of the IAP is to give pen makers a place to enhance their skills, share experiences, and promote the art of pen making.

A site policy deals with reporting suspected copyright infringement.


----------



## edstreet

sbell111 said:


> edstreet said:
> 
> 
> 
> ... If you do a search here on IAP ... you will quickly find there are countless post after post dealing with techniques, methods, applications, guides, detailed detailed and detailed.  Not only will you find one method you will find MULTIPLE methods.  So yes you do have the same thing going on as well.
> 
> Also sadly I am somewhat saddened and ashamed that we have not heard from the admin, Jeff, on this topic.
> 
> 
> 
> Just so I understand the point of your post, is it correct that you want Jeff to step in and stop people from sharing their methods?
Click to expand...


That is not what I said nor implied.


----------



## sbell111

edstreet said:


> sbell111 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> edstreet said:
> 
> 
> 
> ... If you do a search here on IAP ... you will quickly find there are countless post after post dealing with techniques, methods, applications, guides, detailed detailed and detailed.  Not only will you find one method you will find MULTIPLE methods.  So yes you do have the same thing going on as well.
> 
> Also sadly I am somewhat saddened and ashamed that we have not heard from the admin, Jeff, on this topic.
> 
> 
> 
> Just so I understand the point of your post, is it correct that you want Jeff to step in and stop people from sharing their methods?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That is not what I said nor implied.
Click to expand...

Then what are you saying???  You seem to be upset that people share methods and then you opine that Jeff should do something about it.


----------



## edstreet

sbell111 said:


> edstreet said:
> 
> 
> 
> That is not what I said nor implied.
> 
> 
> 
> Then what are you saying???  You seem to be upset that people share methods and then you opine that Jeff should do something about it.
Click to expand...


Actually the topic of this thread is about input, not action.  But thank you for confirming the real reason that Jeff and co are not more frequent posters and share things on this site.

P.s. If you think I am upset over any of this you really are out in left field and not even remotely with the program.


----------



## skiprat

I just figured it out !!!!
You two are actually having an affair and all the head-banging is just a ruse so we don't suspect the truth....


----------



## edstreet

skiprat said:


> I just figured it out !!!!
> You two are actually having an affair and all the head-banging is just a ruse so we don't suspect the truth....



Skippy, since you are in the EU and may not be aware of on goings on this side of the pond I will fill you in some.

This thread was actually started due to a recent lawsuit of a major magnitude. It went to the highest court in the land and it involves copyright protection.  The final verdict was released last week it did bring up many questions.  While mostly in the tech sector.  The other major factor was the recent trademark blowup over the Redskin's which turned ugly in another thread.

Fast forward a few days, on another discussion group that I lurk in there was a huge blow up on stealing ideas and copyrights etc.. in the art sectors.  That got me to wondering about pen making so I posted this thread.  I was mostly wanting to hear input on what people thought and where they stood on various issues and where the group majority of posters took the subject.  


Supreme Court rules against Aereo in Internet TV fight  This should get you started in the recent SCOTUS ruling.


----------



## mark james

I can't fathom why Jeff would have any reason to enter into this thread...  It's amusing enough just to follow it...   :tongue:  Have your fun!


----------



## Bean_Counter

Why must we feed the troll


----------



## jeff

edstreet said:


> Also sadly I am somewhat saddened and ashamed that we have not heard from the admin, Jeff, on this topic.



Saddened and ashamed? Wow.

What exactly would you like to hear from me, Ed?


----------



## edstreet

jeff said:


> edstreet said:
> 
> 
> 
> Also sadly I am somewhat saddened and ashamed that we have not heard from the admin, Jeff, on this topic.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Saddened and ashamed? Wow.
> 
> What exactly would you like to hear from me, Ed?
Click to expand...


AH! We got your attention   Perhaps you would like to weight in on the topic.


----------



## jeff

edstreet said:


> jeff said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> edstreet said:
> 
> 
> 
> Also sadly I am somewhat saddened and ashamed that we have not heard from the admin, Jeff, on this topic.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Saddened and ashamed? Wow.
> 
> What exactly would you like to hear from me, Ed?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> AH! We got your attention   Perhaps you would like to weight in on the topic.
Click to expand...


You really think that because I have not posted that you don't have my attention? 

You should know that I don't post much if at all on subjective topics for obvious reasons.


----------



## mark james

ED... Maybe this is the "drama" that you alluded to in a reference to AAW...
I agree!  Why add mindless drama to IAP ?  

I think we can be better than this silly bickering.  The original post/discussion was fine, why degrade it to this level?  

Let it go and learn whatever you can from the comments from your post.


----------



## Holz Mechaniker

beck3906 said:


> ...And what about Jeff Powell?  He's invested hundreds of hours writing code for his blanks.
> 
> What will be said when this style blank floods our shores?



While Jeff does make some of the coolest, and awe inspiring blanks. Not to insult him but he is really not worth it because well hit is but a one man operation. Now if he was the owner of a multi million dollar operation then it would be more feasible to go and start reproducing his designs and flood the market and minimum cost.


----------



## mbroberg

edstreet said:


> This actually has nothing to do with Toni nor does it have anything to do with me. *I posted the original and the follow up more as a curiosity and not based on any current events, i.e. redskins.*





edstreet said:


> *This thread was actually started due to a recent lawsuit of a major magnitude. It went to the highest court in the land and it involves copyright protection.  The final verdict was released last week it did bring up many questions.  While mostly in the tech sector. The other major factor was the recent trademark blowup over the Redskin's which turned ugly in another thread. *



I'm curious Ed, which statement is true and which is not?  Was this thread started "...as a curiosity and not based on any current events, i.e. redskins" or was this thread "actually started due to a recent lawsuit of a major magnitude. It went to the highest court in the land and it involves copyright protection.  The final verdict was released last week it did bring up many questions.  While mostly in the tech sector.  (It seems to me that a Supreme Court Ruling made last week would be a current event)    The other major factor was the recent trademark blowup over the Redskin's which turned ugly in another thread.  (I thought you said that the Redskins issue had nothing to do with your asking the question)  I'm just trying to figure out what really prompted this thread?


----------



## edstreet

mbroberg said:


>



Both are true statements.


----------



## mbroberg

Got it!  It's not based on any current events i.e.Redskins but it is based on a current event : A Supreme Court Ruling made last week and on the Redskins issue.  Thanks for clearing that up.


----------



## edstreet

mbroberg said:


> Got it!  It's not based on any current events i.e.Redskins but it is based on a current event : A Supreme Court Ruling made last week and on the Redskins issue.  Thanks for clearing that up.



Still incorrect.

Not based on any event but there have been several events that parallels this topic recently which got me to thinking about this thread, so I posted it.  The thread was to be more broad spectrum and not related to any specific event.


----------



## mbroberg

edstreet said:


> Still incorrect.
> 
> Not based on any event but there have been several events that parallels this topic recently which got me to thinking about this thread, so I posted it.  The thread was to be more broad spectrum and not related to any specific event.



Yet you posted that it was related to a specific current event.



edstreet said:


> *This thread was actually started due to a recent lawsuit of a major magnitude.* It went to the highest court in the land and it involves copyright protection.  The final verdict was released last week it did bring up many questions.  While mostly in the tech sector.  *The other major factor was the recent trademark blowup over the Redskin's which turned ugly in another thread.
> *



I guess it is the part where you say "This thread *was actually started*....."

No biggie, just wondered about the conflicting messages.  It is a interesting topic.


----------



## lwalper

If it's anything like recipes, change it a little and it becomes yours. The pens I see posted here are fantastic, inspiring. If I try to reproduce something similar it will become mine, for it won't be the "same". It may have aluminum or brass inserted in the wood/plastic, or a concealed clip attachment similar to others I've seen, but the actual pen will be "mine". It's a one-off individual item impossible to exactly reproduce. If I sell one, good for me. If you sell one, good for you. If we're standing in adjacent booths and you sell one I might ask, "Why are they selling and mine aren't?" Maybe I made junk and you've got nice stuff.

Lock this thread. Let's talk about pens.


----------



## Smitty37

lwalper said:


> If it's anything like recipes, change it a little and it becomes yours. The pens I see posted here are fantastic, inspiring. If I try to reproduce something similar it will become mine, for it won't be the "same". It may have aluminum or brass inserted in the wood/plastic, or a concealed clip attachment similar to others I've seen, but the actual pen will be "mine". It's a one-off individual item impossible to exactly reproduce. If I sell one, good for me. If you sell one, good for you. If we're standing in adjacent booths and you sell one I might ask, "Why are they selling and mine aren't?" Maybe I made junk and you've got nice stuff.
> 
> *Lock this thread. Let's talk about pens.*


Well, if you really aren't interested in this thread, the simple solution is don't follow it...  And if you have something good to say about pens or pen making you'll find lots of us willing to talk about it with you.


----------



## beck3906

Holz Mechaniker;1682777
While Jeff does make some of the coolest said:
			
		

> I believe you're missing the point.
> 
> Jeff Powell has invested a significant amount of time writing code for his CNC equipment to create the blanks he does.  He's also invested in the equipment to see those creations come to life.  Jeff has an artistic eye few possess and can see the final product before it's ever created on the CNC.
> 
> Jeff is also known for his scrolled blanks.  Another art form that few pursue because of the time and patience needed to produce one piece.
> 
> What do you think Jeff would feel like if someone contacted him and asked for the code itself that he used to create one of his blanks?  I would think there are people who have access to CNC equipment who feel they can produce a blank if the had the code.  Why bother figuring it out on your own when you can ask someone to give it to you.  Jeff has already invested the time and energy to get the code to work and then someone asks for the code outright?  And it may have already happened.   Jeff should be protected on the intellectual property he's created.
> 
> This goes for things like computer software.  Anyone who writes code doesn't want their investment copied and resold.  Also think about pharmaceuticals.  Drug manufacturers are protected for a length of time before generics are produced so the original manufacturer can recover their development time.
> 
> We've been down this road a number of times on various topics.  Ken Nelson developed the first laser cut kits.  There was an uproar when others began making them and now we can find laser kits from a number of folks.
> 
> There was a significant discussion years ago about the first computer circuit board blanks and how one of IAP's own was being hurt when a major manufacturer began mass producing them.  Many felt the IAP member was being wronged because "his idea" was stolen.
> 
> More recently, a discussion on making realistic looking cigar ash was the debated topic.  The first person to really show this type of product was asked for his secret on how to make the ash.  He didn't want to release that info because he had developed a product and was successfully marketing that product.  But many felt he wasn't living up to the IAP mantra of teaching others.
> 
> I don't believe I would be willing to release my techniques of making a blank if I was selling blanks to one of the IAP vendors, or really any vendor.  Marla Mills makes some great blanks and sells those blanks to various vendors.  Should she tell how she makes those blanks at the risk of loosing/reducing her market?  If so, she's also undercutting the sales ability of the vendors she sells to.
> 
> A comment was made about the big name turners at AAW events showing their technique.  The comment told of how the turner was free with their info because they had established their name in the turning community.
> 
> I also think there's a lot of folks that attend one of these seminars do so just to see how something is done.  I would venture to say that most of the people in the seminar don't try the technique being demonstrated or if they do, they don't use it more than once.  Either way, the technique is still safe.
> 
> So, back to my original example of Jeff Powell.  Will the IAP community be upset when someone begins to offer similar products to what Jeff makes?  Many will see it as a means of reducing costs if the new style is cheaper than what Jeff's blanks sell for.  Others will think that competition is good for the market.  Few will see that the intellectual effort Jeff invested has benefitted everyone.


----------



## Smitty37

beck3906 said:


> Holz Mechaniker;1682777
> While Jeff does make some of the coolest said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I believe you're missing the point.
> 
> Jeff Powell has invested a significant amount of time writing code for his CNC equipment to create the blanks he does.  He's also invested in the equipment to see those creations come to life.  Jeff has an artistic eye few possess and can see the final product before it's ever created on the CNC.
> 
> Jeff is also known for his scrolled blanks.  Another art form that few pursue because of the time and patience needed to produce one piece.
> 
> What do you think Jeff would feel like if someone contacted him and asked for the code itself that he used to create one of his blanks?  I would think there are people who have access to CNC equipment who feel they can produce a blank if the had the code.  Why bother figuring it out on your own when you can ask someone to give it to you.  Jeff has already invested the time and energy to get the code to work and then someone asks for the code outright?  And it may have already happened.   Jeff should be protected on the intellectual property he's created.
> 
> This goes for things like computer software.  Anyone who writes code doesn't want their investment copied and resold.  Also think about pharmaceuticals.  Drug manufacturers are protected for a length of time before generics are produced so the original manufacturer can recover their development time.
> 
> We've been down this road a number of times on various topics.  Ken Nelson developed the first laser cut kits.  There was an uproar when others began making them and now we can find laser kits from a number of folks.
> 
> There was a significant discussion years ago about the first computer circuit board blanks and how one of IAP's own was being hurt when a major manufacturer began mass producing them.  Many felt the IAP member was being wronged because "his idea" was stolen.
> 
> More recently, a discussion on making realistic looking cigar ash was the debated topic.  The first person to really show this type of product was asked for his secret on how to make the ash.  He didn't want to release that info because he had developed a product and was successfully marketing that product.  But many felt he wasn't living up to the IAP mantra of teaching others.
> 
> I don't believe I would be willing to release my techniques of making a blank if I was selling blanks to one of the IAP vendors, or really any vendor.  Marla Mills makes some great blanks and sells those blanks to various vendors.  Should she tell how she makes those blanks at the risk of loosing/reducing her market?  If so, she's also undercutting the sales ability of the vendors she sells to.
> 
> *A comment was made about the big name turners at AAW events showing their technique.  The comment told of how the turner was free with their info because they had established their name in the turning community*.
> 
> I also think there's a lot of folks that attend one of these seminars do so just to see how something is done.  I would venture to say that most of the people in the seminar don't try the technique being demonstrated or if they do, they don't use it more than once.  Either way, the technique is still safe.
> 
> So, back to my original example of Jeff Powell.  Will the IAP community be upset when someone begins to offer similar products to what Jeff makes?  Many will see it as a means of reducing costs if the new style is cheaper than what Jeff's blanks sell for.  Others will think that competition is good for the market.  Few will see that the intellectual effort Jeff invested has benefitted everyone.
> 
> 
> 
> They are probably called demosrators.....the purpose of holding seminars is infact exchange of information - they are not about "showing"/selling: Booths are usually informational rather then selling.
Click to expand...


----------



## Janster

...most folks here copy others, I have too. It is not to me so much as copying, it is the "see IF " I can actually accomplish a task that I have yet tried to do! I do get satisfaction for getting it done. I do not claim that I was the first to make a particular blank nor do I say "Joe Doe" made a similar blank and I copied it. The new stuff coming out blank wise and otherwise, is inspiring and makes me want to do better. Be well.....J


----------



## sbell111

beck3906 said:


> Holz Mechaniker said:
> 
> 
> 
> While Jeff does make some of the coolest, and awe inspiring blanks. Not to insult him but he is really not worth it because well hit is but a one man operation. Now if he was the owner of a multi million dollar operation then it would be more feasible to go and start reproducing his designs and flood the market and minimum cost.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I believe you're missing the point.
> 
> Jeff Powell has invested a significant amount of time writing code for his CNC equipment to create the blanks he does.  He's also invested in the equipment to see those creations come to life.  Jeff has an artistic eye few possess and can see the final product before it's ever created on the CNC.
> 
> Jeff is also known for his scrolled blanks.  Another art form that few pursue because of the time and patience needed to produce one piece.
> 
> What do you think Jeff would feel like if someone contacted him and asked for the code itself that he used to create one of his blanks?  I would think there are people who have access to CNC equipment who feel they can produce a blank if the had the code.  Why bother figuring it out on your own when you can ask someone to give it to you.  Jeff has already invested the time and energy to get the code to work and then someone asks for the code outright?  And it may have already happened.   Jeff should be protected on the intellectual property he's created.
> 
> This goes for things like computer software.  Anyone who writes code doesn't want their investment copied and resold.  Also think about pharmaceuticals.  Drug manufacturers are protected for a length of time before generics are produced so the original manufacturer can recover their development time.
> 
> We've been down this road a number of times on various topics.  Ken Nelson developed the first laser cut kits.  There was an uproar when others began making them and now we can find laser kits from a number of folks.
> 
> There was a significant discussion years ago about the first computer circuit board blanks and how one of IAP's own was being hurt when a major manufacturer began mass producing them.  Many felt the IAP member was being wronged because "his idea" was stolen.
> 
> More recently, a discussion on making realistic looking cigar ash was the debated topic.  The first person to really show this type of product was asked for his secret on how to make the ash.  He didn't want to release that info because he had developed a product and was successfully marketing that product.  But many felt he wasn't living up to the IAP mantra of teaching others.
> 
> I don't believe I would be willing to release my techniques of making a blank if I was selling blanks to one of the IAP vendors, or really any vendor.  Marla Mills makes some great blanks and sells those blanks to various vendors.  Should she tell how she makes those blanks at the risk of loosing/reducing her market?  If so, she's also undercutting the sales ability of the vendors she sells to.
> 
> A comment was made about the big name turners at AAW events showing their technique.  The comment told of how the turner was free with their info because they had established their name in the turning community.
> 
> I also think there's a lot of folks that attend one of these seminars do so just to see how something is done.  I would venture to say that most of the people in the seminar don't try the technique being demonstrated or if they do, they don't use it more than once.  Either way, the technique is still safe.
> 
> So, back to my original example of Jeff Powell.  Will the IAP community be upset when someone begins to offer similar products to what Jeff makes?  Many will see it as a means of reducing costs if the new style is cheaper than what Jeff's blanks sell for.  Others will think that competition is good for the market.  Few will see that the intellectual effort Jeff invested has benefitted everyone.
Click to expand...

I think that you are missing the point.

It's hard to figure out what the OP is really upset about because he kind of wanders to and fro, but it seems that he is mad not at people who use someone's instructions to create a blank or those that ask for assistance in figuring out how to make a blank.  It seems that he is mad solely because people are willing to put in the work to make their own rather than buy them from someone else.  To use Jeff as an example, it would seem that the OP would insist that a person buy from Jeff instead of investing his own time and money generating code for his CNC to make himself a blank.


----------



## Dan Hintz

beck3906 said:


> Jeff Powell has invested a significant amount of time writing code for his CNC equipment to create the blanks he does.  He's also invested in the equipment to see those creations come to life.  Jeff has an artistic eye few possess and can see the final product before it's ever created on the CNC.


Let me make it clear that I have pored over Jeff's site and I really love his work.

That said, let's be clear what is going on here.  The way his work is being described, it's as  if he has spent months writing CNC code by hand, line by line.  If that is in fact what he is doing, then he's living the hard life.

Let's take, for example, his snowflake pen.  I can grab a snowflake outline from Google, take that image into Vectric Cut3D, and create the "thousands of lines of CNC code" in well under 30 minutes.  The tribal dragon?  I have 100+ tribal dragon images... the process is the same as with the snowflake.

What he's doing with CNC machine, I'm doing with a fiber laser.  As I said, I love his work (kindred spirits and all that), but using his work as an example should be done from a standpoint of limited availability (few are doing it), not necessarily one of difficulty or hard-learned arts to be hidden for fear others might copy it.  It's creative, but the amount of deep-engraved pens filled with resin is pretty high in the high-dollar pen world... I handled several from different company's at the last pen show I went to (last year).


----------



## Jim Burr

beck3906 said:


> Holz Mechaniker;1682777
> [/quote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I believe you're missing the point.
> 
> Jeff Powell has invested a significant amount of time writing code for his CNC equipment to create the blanks he does.  He's also invested in the equipment to see those creations come to life.  Jeff has an artistic eye few possess and can see the final product before it's ever created on the CNC.
> 
> Jeff is also known for his scrolled blanks.  Another art form that few pursue because of the time and patience needed to produce one piece.
> 
> What do you think Jeff would feel like if someone contacted him and asked for the code itself that he used to create one of his blanks?  I would think there are people who have access to CNC equipment who feel they can produce a blank if the had the code.  Why bother figuring it out on your own when you can ask someone to give it to you.  Jeff has already invested the time and energy to get the code to work and then someone asks for the code outright?  And it may have already happened.   Jeff should be protected on the intellectual property he's created.
> 
> This goes for things like computer software.  Anyone who writes code doesn't want their investment copied and resold.  Also think about pharmaceuticals.  Drug manufacturers are protected for a length of time before generics are produced so the original manufacturer can recover their development time.
> 
> We've been down this road a number of times on various topics.  Ken Nelson developed the first laser cut kits.  There was an uproar when others began making them and now we can find laser kits from a number of folks.
> 
> There was a significant discussion years ago about the first computer circuit board blanks and how one of IAP's own was being hurt when a major manufacturer began mass producing them.  Many felt the IAP member was being wronged because "his idea" was stolen.
> 
> More recently, a discussion on making realistic looking cigar ash was the debated topic.  The first person to really show this type of product was asked for his secret on how to make the ash.  He didn't want to release that info because he had developed a product and was successfully marketing that product.  But many felt he wasn't living up to the IAP mantra of teaching others.
> 
> I don't believe I would be willing to release my techniques of making a blank if I was selling blanks to one of the IAP vendors, or really any vendor.  Marla Mills makes some great blanks and sells those blanks to various vendors.  Should she tell how she makes those blanks at the risk of loosing/reducing her market?  If so, she's also undercutting the sales ability of the vendors she sells to.
> 
> A comment was made about the big name turners at AAW events showing their technique.  The comment told of how the turner was free with their info because they had established their name in the turning community.
> 
> I also think there's a lot of folks that attend one of these seminars do so just to see how something is done.  I would venture to say that most of the people in the seminar don't try the technique being demonstrated or if they do, they don't use it more than once.  Either way, the technique is still safe.
> 
> So, back to my original example of Jeff Powell.  Will the IAP community be upset when someone begins to offer similar products to what Jeff makes?  Many will see it as a means of reducing costs if the new style is cheaper than what Jeff's blanks sell for.  Others will think that competition is good for the market.  Few will see that the intellectual effort Jeff invested has benefited everyone.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Very well said and a good example of why some pen makers don't want their "secrets" floating around. Some don't mind. I'd rather bust my butt in the shop to figure something out than be one of the "Tell-me-how-to-do-it-so-I-don't-learn" crowd.
> Keep it to yourself or let it out...personal choice and should be left to the individual.
> I guess there would only be one Slim, Sierra, Jr Gent, Cigar or whatever if we didn't try to improve on what the individual can do, not the "inventor".
Click to expand...


----------



## sbell111

Jim Burr said:


> Keep it to yourself or let it out...personal choice and should be left to the individual.


That is how it is and has always been.  I've been hanging out in IAP for a while now and I don't believe that anyone has ever been kicked out for not giving up a secret.  Not pointing the finger at you, at all, but it seems that some in this thread and others on this issue are arguing against an opponent that doesn't exist.


----------



## Smitty37

Dan Hintz said:


> beck3906 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Jeff Powell has invested a significant amount of time writing code for his CNC equipment to create the blanks he does.  He's also invested in the equipment to see those creations come to life.  Jeff has an artistic eye few possess and can see the final product before it's ever created on the CNC.
> 
> 
> 
> Let me make it clear that I have pored over Jeff's site and I really love his work.
> 
> That said, let's be clear what is going on here.  The way his work is being described, it's as  if he has spent months writing CNC code by hand, line by line.  If that is in fact what he is doing, then he's living the hard life.
> 
> Let's take, for example, his snowflake pen.  I can grab a snowflake outline from Google, take that image into Vectric Cut3D, and create the "thousands of lines of CNC code" in well under 30 minutes.  The tribal dragon?  I have 100+ tribal dragon images... the process is the same as with the snowflake.
> 
> What he's doing with CNC machine, I'm doing with a fiber laser.  As I said, I love his work (kindred spirits and all that), but using his work as an example should be done from a standpoint of limited availability (few are doing it), not necessarily one of difficulty or hard-learned arts to be hidden for fear others might copy it.  It's creative, but the amount of deep-engraved pens filled with resin is pretty high in the high-dollar pen world... I handled several from different company's at the last pen show I went to (last year).
Click to expand...

 I'm not sure there is a good reason to use his work (or any other specific individuals work) as an example at all.

I strongly suspect also, that all CNC machines are not created equal that the machines will have different capabilities and that the code would not be the same for all machines.  But, I'd have to admit that I have not fooled with CNC machining for a long long time.  I probably did my first "CNC" work before half the people on this site were born and my last in the early 1980's.


----------



## Smitty37

sbell111 said:


> Jim Burr said:
> 
> 
> 
> Keep it to yourself or let it out...personal choice and should be left to the individual.
> 
> 
> 
> That is how it is and has always been.  I've been hanging out in IAP for a while now and I don't believe that anyone has ever been kicked out for not giving up a secret.  Not pointing the finger at you, at all, but it seems that some in this thread and others on this issue are arguing against an opponent that doesn't exist.
Click to expand...

That's a point that we do agree on Steve..I've never felt like I had a full handle on what this thread is all about - other that what we've known for a long time - if you do something good, and show it off, someone will copy it and you probably have no recourse.


----------



## ottotroll

Guys, if you don't want someone to copy/emulate an idea, don't publish it.... but remember -Compartmentalized Knowledge is Worthless!
If I am ever feel that I feel the need/desire to hoard my knowledge, then I would simply acknowledging that I am incredibly limited creatively.... PLease look to Thingiverse.com for how we should share ideas - 
Thanks,
Richard


----------



## Smitty37

*Just a couple of thoughts*

I went out and looked at what the person who wrote the article mentioned in the OP is talking about ... I checked her website for her "original" ideas one is a replica of a Hobart mixer done in some other material, that probably does not function but still looks like a Hobart.  It seemed to me that every thing I saw on her website was a "copy" of some common item done in a different medium in some cases it was made to look like the original item, in others it's size and shape are original but it does use a different medium.  She doesn't really seem to have a problem with copying  - when she does it - only when someone tries to do it with something she has copied.


----------



## Quality Pen

I'm a new member to the IAP... so I don't know all it's history nor the members.

But I think it's important to keep in mind that thread -- this community -- is a tricky mix of hobbyists and businesspeople.


----------



## Shock me

The original poster asked to hear what we the community think about this.
Here's what I think about it; I agree with Pablo Picasso and T.S. Eliot. 

Picasso supposedly said that "good artists borrow, great artists steal". 

Eliot supposedly said that "good writers borrow, great writers steal", his point exemplifying itself, if they ever actually said it.

I once read that "all literature steals from the Greeks and they stole from each other". Since I can't find the source of that quote, I'm going to steal it for myself and call it my own.

So your work was copied? Join the club.

Somebody demands that you share a process you've developed because you are part of the IAP community? That's up to you.


----------



## Quality Pen

Shock me said:


> The original poster asked to hear what we the community think about this.
> Here's what I think about it; I agree with Pablo Picasso and T.S. Eliot.
> 
> Picasso supposedly said that "good artists borrow, great artists steal".
> 
> Eliot supposedly said that "good writers borrow, great writers steal", his point exemplifying itself, if they ever actually said it.
> 
> I once read that "all literature steals from the Greeks and they stole from each other". Since I can't find the source of that quote, I'm going to steal it for myself and call it my own.
> 
> So your work was copied? Join the club.
> 
> Somebody demands that you share a process you've developed because you are part of the IAP community? That's up to you.


I wonder if the IAP forum itself is a copycat of some prior forum :wink::biggrin:


----------



## Smitty37

Quality Pen said:


> Shock me said:
> 
> 
> 
> The original poster asked to hear what we the community think about this.
> Here's what I think about it; I agree with Pablo Picasso and T.S. Eliot.
> 
> Picasso supposedly said that "good artists borrow, great artists steal".
> 
> Eliot supposedly said that "good writers borrow, great writers steal", his point exemplifying itself, if they ever actually said it.
> 
> I once read that "all literature steals from the Greeks and they stole from each other". Since I can't find the source of that quote, I'm going to steal it for myself and call it my own.
> 
> So your work was copied? Join the club.
> 
> Somebody demands that you share a process you've developed because you are part of the IAP community? That's up to you.
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder if the IAP forum itself is a copycat of some prior forum :wink::biggrin:
Click to expand...

It was TS Eliot but that is a presentation of the "idea" not quote.....he was talking about poets and what he actually wrote is a much longer passage.


----------



## Holz Mechaniker

In comedy.  To steal a joke is very bad. Just search out Joe Rogan's assault on Carlos Mencia. I would put up a you tube link but what there is, ain't safe for work.  The Late David Brenner Caught a "kid" doing his act called him on it, then went up on stage and finished the show.
NOW if a comic uses a Premise similar to another; ie. Parenthood, Spouses, Kids, that is acceptable it is something that really is unavoidable.  That is to say, If you take three to five people here in IAP. give them the same kit, they can come up with their version. 

NOW after 96 replies (holy crap is this one of the largest?) 
IS it Copying or stealing if you watch a You Tube Channel where the presenter is in fact showing how to make.
OR you purchase a Video of say Tim Yoder, or Richard Raffin Again showing a how to... is that stealing?


----------



## Troutlet

*Thoughts on Copying*

I made pottery for 35 years and for many of those years it was my sole source of income.  I have experienced this problem and seen many examples of copied material.  This was all before the internet became what it is now and one can access all manner of designs and creations of others.  Students imitate their teachers and this is part of the learning process.  As some have mentioned, we post our pen pictures and others take a shot at trying them out to see how it has been done.  We sometimes do this unconsciously.  Again, this is just human nature as we learn by doing and by imitation.  This is how children learn a language and how we learn to function in our culture.

Now, the problem comes into play when your craft or art is your sole source of income.  It is painful and depressing to watch as others intentionally steal your ideas and then take sales and money away from you.  I have a friend that came up with a unique and wonderful idea for lamps to go on the side of a house or building.  His business took off and he expanded his work area and hired some people and was wildly successful for about 2 years and then suddenly the market became flooded with mass produced items that were essentially his ideas and methods.  From guess where?  China.  Someone with money had seen his work, stole his design, and had it mass produced and marketed.  It wasn't long before he was out of business!

I once heard an 'artist' say, "Steal with your eyes, not with your hands."  Unfortunately this happens in any craft. In some instances not necessarily a bad thing and in others not so good.

Kirby Benson (Troutlet)


----------



## Smitty37

Holz Mechaniker said:


> In comedy.  *To steal a joke is very bad.* Just search out Joe Rogan's assault on Carlos Mencia. I would put up a you tube link but what there is, ain't safe for work.  The Late David Brenner Caught a "kid" doing his act called him on it, then went up on stage and finished the show.
> NOW if a comic uses a Premise similar to another; ie. Parenthood, Spouses, Kids, that is acceptable it is something that really is unavoidable.  That is to say, If you take three to five people here in IAP. give them the same kit, they can come up with their version.
> 
> NOW after 96 replies (holy crap is this one of the largest?)
> IS it Copying or stealing if you watch a You Tube Channel where the presenter is in fact showing how to make.
> OR you purchase a Video of say Tim Yoder, or Richard Raffin Again showing a how to... is that stealing?


Milton Berle was known as a joke thief He was called the Thief of Bad Gags (a name which he gave himself).  Of course you might not be old enough to remember "Uncle Miltie" the country's first TV Superstar.


----------



## TurnaPen

I have read through all the posts, mainly to get an overview of what was the general opinion.
I think(subjectively) that sharing techniques and ideas, and helping out others is a wonderful thing. Despite all the pros and cons, that will always continue.
The defining line (which is not so well defined), is not to steal another man's income, it is that fine line that is causing each of us to express our opinions freely (whether we agree or do not agree).
There is only one "Mona Lisa" , but plenty of prints.!
When I think of artistic talent and skill, I stand in awe of Skiprat, Toni, Jeff, and some others, I would love to have their SKILL but produce my own creations.
The recent BASH here produced some absolutely stunning pens, I want the SKILLs involved, and I want to produce my own pen. 
The skills can be shared and enhanced, the artistic talent involved can only come from God.
Let's live in peace and help each other, life is short.
Amos


----------



## Whaler

Welcome to the modern day world and the internet if you post it and it is any good it may be copied. If you don't want it copied don't post it. Most everything in this world is a copy of something, sometimes with minor deviations and even improvements.
Go turn something of your own design that has never been done before and you didn't get the inspieraition from some one esles work, don't think it will happen from most.


----------



## Holz Mechaniker

Smitty37 said:


> Holz Mechaniker said:
> 
> 
> 
> In comedy.  *To steal a joke is very bad.* Just search out Joe Rogan's assault on Carlos Mencia. I would put up a you tube link but what there is, ain't safe for work.  The Late David Brenner Caught a "kid" doing his act called him on it, then went up on stage and finished the show.
> NOW if a comic uses a Premise similar to another; ie. Parenthood, Spouses, Kids, that is acceptable it is something that really is unavoidable.  That is to say, If you take three to five people here in IAP. give them the same kit, they can come up with their version.
> 
> NOW after 96 replies (holy crap is this one of the largest?)
> IS it Copying or stealing if you watch a You Tube Channel where the presenter is in fact showing how to make.
> OR you purchase a Video of say Tim Yoder, or Richard Raffin Again showing a how to... is that stealing?
> 
> 
> 
> Milton Berle was known as a joke thief He was called the Thief of Bad Gags (a name which he gave himself).  Of course you might not be old enough to remember "Uncle Miltie" the country's first TV Superstar.
Click to expand...


Ohhhh yeah he was notorious, Bob Hope was said to have a bounty on Berle for the gags Berle stole from him.


----------



## Smitty37

Holz Mechaniker said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Holz Mechaniker said:
> 
> 
> 
> In comedy.  *To steal a joke is very bad.* Just search out Joe Rogan's assault on Carlos Mencia. I would put up a you tube link but what there is, ain't safe for work.  The Late David Brenner Caught a "kid" doing his act called him on it, then went up on stage and finished the show.
> NOW if a comic uses a Premise similar to another; ie. Parenthood, Spouses, Kids, that is acceptable it is something that really is unavoidable.  That is to say, If you take three to five people here in IAP. give them the same kit, they can come up with their version.
> 
> NOW after 96 replies (holy crap is this one of the largest?)
> IS it Copying or stealing if you watch a You Tube Channel where the presenter is in fact showing how to make.
> OR you purchase a Video of say Tim Yoder, or Richard Raffin Again showing a how to... is that stealing?
> 
> 
> 
> Milton Berle was known as a joke thief He was called the Thief of Bad Gags (a name which he gave himself).  Of course you might not be old enough to remember "Uncle Miltie" the country's first TV Superstar.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Ohhhh yeah he was notorious, Bob Hope was said to have a bounty on Berle for the gags Berle stole from him.
Click to expand...

tHE "Thief of Bad Gags" name came as a response to Hope's accusations that Berle stole his jokes.


----------

