# Where does Bethlehem Olive Wood Come From?



## Padre

I am starting this thread because of this thread.  I made a comment in that thread that started a whole discussion of where BOW really comes from.  This comment hijacked the original posters question.  So, I have started this thread to continue the discussion:

*WHERE DOES BOW COME FROM?*

This is my original statement:


Padre said:


> I have been to Israel 4 times now, hoping to go back again soon.  Made friends with the Nissan brothers  in Bethlehem.  Efram and George are both good folks and they have quite  the factory in their store basement.  I used to get bulk wood from  them, but they don't sell it anymore.
> 
> I have resorted to buying mine from Ebay, and it comes directly from  Israel.  However, another pen turner told me that some, if not most, of  the time the wood comes from California, is shipped to Bethlehem and  just re-posted in Bethlehem and shipped back.  Sigh.



George (Robutacion) added some information here and here ,  here ,here and here about how most BOW is from Italy.

Now here are some more questions for us to ponder:

1.  When I order my olivewood from Ebay, it comes to me in a box from either Bethlehem or Jerusalem.  Since it is "FROM" there, does that make it BOW, or JOW?

2.  See attached thumbnails. When my wood comes in these boxes it come with a bunch of "Authenticity Certificates."  Picture 1.  Does this make it authentic?  It simply states the wood is "from Bethlehem, Jerusalem/The Holy Land." Being imported to Israel, unboxed, sent to Jerusalem, Bethlehem, etc., reboxed, and then shipped, does this not make it "FROM" these places?  For instance, if I buy a gift at JC Penney's, give it to my wife, I say it is FROM me.  But I didn't make it/grow it or do anything other than buy it.  Can't the same reasoning apply to BOW/JOW?

3.  In the same box I get stickers that say "MADE IN BETHLEHEM  HOLY LAND   OLIVE WOOD"  Wow.  Am I supposed to put these stickers on my pens even though they are MADE in Manchester, Connecticut?  See Picture 2.

I guess is could be a matter of semantics (what does the word FROM really imply?).

It could be a matter of trust.

It could be much todo about nothing!!


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## rjwolfe3

I can't wait to see some of the answers to this because I would love to know myself.


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## mredburn

Would your client, who is buying a pen with that particular wood because of the significance of its place of origin to them, be upset if they knew it had been processed like that? It comes down to what is technically correct and what is morally responsible. Technically you received it as stated. You can justify it anyway you like but if you disclosed that it originated elsewhere would that affect the sale. 
Mike


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## ToddMR

As for the stickers I would think they mean your item "pen" is made FROM that specific material.  That is how I read it.  And I am with you, I so would not put it on a pen, maybe on the box on the bottom, a pen tube, something like that.  Its like putting a sticker on the bumper of my car, it just makes it look cheap imo.


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## KenV

The market and puffery in relics and such has a history of centuries.   There have been a number of cases where a summation of body parts from Saints claimed in multiple locations exceeded those of several bodies.  

Why is this the case with pen blanks -- there are about 26 blanks to a board foot of lumber.  At 2 bucks a blanks -- over $50 a board foot   At 4 bucks a blank, that is over $100 a board foot --  pretty fancy wood price.  

And the european olive is being grown all over the world from California to Libia.  (note that this is not the same species as the winter hardy shelter belt tree known as Russian Olive).


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## broitblat

Regardless of the source, it is still beautiful wood and I enjoy working with it.  However, I would expect it to be from trees that were growing in Israel.  If that is not the case, I would not be comfortable representing anything I made from the wood as BOW/JOW. 

  -Barry


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## ed4copies

Recently, I decided Exotics was going to handle Olive Wood.  So, I sent a number of emails to various sources, located in Israel.  The answers to those emails were numerous.  My "mind's picture" is a "touristy area" where every little family makes trinkets from local olive wood, then sell the cut offs.  If you picture "old town" in Chicago in the 70's or St. Augustine Fl--to this day--you have the same "mind picture" I have.

Each of the people who replied to me (looking for wholesale--500 or more) was in the same price range and most did not know anything about shipping to the USA.  I selected one who had been recommended by an American customer of Exotics.  This was two months ago.

The wood arrived today.  From Israel, shipped by boat. 

So I am reasonably certain the wood is local to the Holy Land.  Most important, to me, it IS nicely figured and will make REALLY NICE pens.  I paid a premium, but got wood that is worth the money.

It was definitely shipped from Israel--I asked for Jerusalem Olive wood, because we have a number of BOW suppliers already.  I ended up getting some of each, because I was told that hand-picking for high figure was easier if I allowed them to use both types.

TO ME!!!!  It is important not to call a man a liar unless you have strong evidence that what he is saying is not true--usually FOR ME, that means I have nearly indisputable PROOF he is saying something that is not factual.  It is only a LIE, if he KNEW it was not factual.  So, for me, this is Holy Land Olive.  From Jerusalem and Bethlehem.  I will sell it as such and, if you choose to purchase, you may sell it with great confidence that what you are saying is true.

Unless you are IN Israel and watch the wood harvested, there will be no certitude!!  But I can live with a 2% uncertainty!!

FWIW


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## mredburn

It seems you have  a couple of choices.  Take your supplier at his word until he is proved wrong, or try and verify his supply chain. Or do  as Ed did control the supply chain yourself by ordering direct from Isrial..


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## PenMan1

If the product SHIPS from Israel, it is an Israeli product. At least that is how the Government of the United States and the Government of Isarel see it. 

If that definition is good enough for these two world power Governments, then who am I to question?

When my BOW comes in with postage from Bethleham, Isarel, WITH a certificate of authenticity, why would I question its origin?  Olive wood is plentiful in Israel AND by getting the wood from Italy, Israel would have to pay duties coming into the country and leaving the country.

The reason BOW is hard to get right now has nothing to do with the availability of wood, but instead, the hassle of getting shipments out of Israel. When the country blockaids its port to keep weapons out of Gaza, it also slows the shipments in and out of Israel. Italy (or Greece, for that matter) are not fondly regarded by the Israelis. If Israel can produce their own export products without involving Greece or Italy, you can bet that they will.


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## Padre

Ed, I can assure you Israel is NOTHING like 70's Chicago or St. Augustine of today.

It is a combination of Old World/New World.  Take Jerusalem for instance.  When you mention that city, most people's "mind's eye" thinks of the "Old City."  You know, the walled part.  But today Jerusalem is a bustling metropolis that the "Old City" is in the middle of.  Large, beautiful new hotels, businesses, etc.

Yet, go immediately outside Jerusalem, and you have what most people would see as "Afghanistan" or some other poor third world country.  Even Nazareth, Bethlehem, etc. are not comparable to Jerusalem or some of the other modern cities in Israel.

The "countryside" is very barren, south from Jerusalem is the 'wilderness' consisting of desert, rocks, mountains of rocks, etc.  To the north lies lush territory around the Sea of Galilee (_Lake_ of _Gennesaret_).  

I have spent time in Israel traveling the various byways and highways, and very much going off the beaten path.

Are there olive trees in Israel?  Absolutely!  Are there lots of olive trees in Israel?  No.

Can you still get olive wood from Israel?  Absolutely, and I think your due diligence is more than exemplary.  I have now found my supplier.


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## PenMan1

I guess is could be a matter of semantics (what does the word FROM really imply?).


That sounds like something Bill Clinton would say. What iIS is?)).


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## spnemo

All the COA says is that the wood is authentic olive wood and that wood is from the Holy Land.  So if they ship any olive wood from Jerusalem then the COA is accurate (even though it could be misleading).


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## ed4copies

Chip (Padre), "due diligence" sounds very good.  But, in good conscience, let's call it "cheap".  I wanted to find a source that would eliminate the "middlemen" and put the money in someone's hands that could USE it.  So, I went through a little more work than "taking the guy everyone knows" in Israel--he's already got enough business.

But I still like my mental picture better than the reality you paint---can I keep mine and add a few random military weapons???:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

Sounds like an "existence" not a "life".  I hope the money I spent makes this family's life a little brighter.


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## Andrew Arndts

*So this begs the question...*

What American Governing overseer of such imported items. Who would be the office to see if this is actual BOW/JOW or not? I would assume the Federal Trade Commission. We are concerned citizens and if we are in agreement that perhaps we need to get a handle on this.  Since the price warrants a Billions of our dollars being spent... Other woodworking forums might want to get involved with us.


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## PenMan1

ed4copies said:


> Chip (Padre), "due diligence" sounds very good. But, in good conscience, let's call it "cheap". I wanted to find a source that would eliminate the "middlemen" and put the money in someone's hands that could USE it. So, I went through a little more work than "taking the guy everyone knows" in Israel--he's already got enough business.
> 
> But I still like my mental picture better than the reality you paint---can I keep mine and add a few random military weapons???:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:
> 
> Sounds like an "existence" not a "life". I hope the money I spent makes this family's life a little brighter.


 

Yeah, the "real" truth comes out. Ed wants a supplier that can ship BOW wrapped around an Israeli AK47:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:


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## Smitty37

Bethlehem or Jerusalem....well guys, there really isn't much difference is there.  Bethlehem is a very short distance from Jerusalem no more than about 7 miles.  It makes perfect sense that the wood would ship from Jerusalem especially if coming by plane.


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## Smitty37

PenMan1 said:


> ed4copies said:
> 
> 
> 
> Chip (Padre), "due diligence" sounds very good. But, in good conscience, let's call it "cheap". I wanted to find a source that would eliminate the "middlemen" and put the money in someone's hands that could USE it. So, I went through a little more work than "taking the guy everyone knows" in Israel--he's already got enough business.
> 
> But I still like my mental picture better than the reality you paint---can I keep mine and add a few random military weapons???:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:
> 
> Sounds like an "existence" not a "life". I hope the money I spent makes this family's life a little brighter.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, the "real" truth comes out. Ed wants a supplier that can ship BOW wrapped around an Israeli AK47:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:
Click to expand...

 
Wouldn't that be a Uzi???


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## Padre

Smitty37 said:


> Bethlehem or Jerusalem....well guys, there really isn't much difference is there.  Bethlehem is a very short distance from Jerusalem no more than about 7 miles.  It makes perfect sense that the wood would ship from Jerusalem especially if coming by plane.



You are right Smitty, Bethlehem is just about 7 miles, a little less, from Jerusalem.  But it might as well be in another country at this point.


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## Padre

NewLondon88 said:


> Not saying where the wood comes from or how it got there, I have no idea.
> But on a similar vein:
> 
> I took a trip to an old marble quarry in Vermont. I had been there years ago and I
> remember having a great time at the marble museum/gift shop and seeing the tour.
> But now this old Vermont quarry is no longer a local company. It was purchased by
> a large Canadian conglomerate. They, in turn, lease the underground rights to another
> company who removes the marble and sends it to Italy where it is cut and polished.
> Then it is shipped back to the US as "Italian Marble"  There is a monument company
> right up the street who buys this same marble he's been using for decades, only now
> it comes from Italy, even though it still comes from just up the street where they had
> been buying it since the 50's.
> 
> I'm just sayin..



Well now, that is interesting!  I guess the "FROM," as long as it is not modified, like in "originates from" is what all that matters.  I wonder how this applies to a lot of other goods we get.


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## Smitty37

*Shipping to and from*

Since the shipping both ways .... to the Holy Land and then from the Holy Land would be a bulky heavy kind of thing I would almost think that shipping from CA to Israel than from Israel after cutting into blanks would put a pretty good squeeze on profits,  Unless you can really get a big mark up.

BTW...as near as I can tell as an international shipper neither the US, nor any other government assumes that if it ships from Israel it is Israeli....there is a place on every customs declaration form to insert the "Country of Origin"  So even though the source is my store all of my international shipments list China or Taiwan as the country of origin.


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## PenMan1

The Country of Origin on Customs manifest is Israel. If that is good enough for Uncle Sam and the Israeli Government, it's good enough for me.


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## PenMan1

Smitty37 said:


> PenMan1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ed4copies said:
> 
> 
> 
> Chip (Padre), "due diligence" sounds very good. But, in good conscience, let's call it "cheap". I wanted to find a source that would eliminate the "middlemen" and put the money in someone's hands that could USE it. So, I went through a little more work than "taking the guy everyone knows" in Israel--he's already got enough business.
> 
> But I still like my mental picture better than the reality you paint---can I keep mine and add a few random military weapons???:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:
> 
> Sounds like an "existence" not a "life". I hope the money I spent makes this family's life a little brighter.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, the "real" truth comes out. Ed wants a supplier that can ship BOW wrapped around an Israeli AK47:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Wouldn't that be a Uzi???
Click to expand...

 
Potato... poTATo:biggrin::biggrin:


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## Dudley Young

I like olive wood, but personally don't care if it comes from the so called "holy land". In my option the Israelis can take the olive wood and jam it and in that case i guess Greece would help.


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## Seer

If we think about it the original BOW came from Italy and according to everything I read the trees are from that era and had been planted by the romans so who is to say where they originally came from. 6 of one half dozen of another. I saw plain olivewood and bow at rockler and you could not tell the difference except the price was double for the bow. I bought some off ebay and it is a very plain wood nothing exceptional about it except where it came from. Just my 2 cents worht.


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## Rmartin

The cards and stickers you picture are the same as the ones I have received. Several years ago, I asked the same question you are asking. Someone whom I respected posted on a Yahoo group that these were from the real deal. He had personally visited the family which harvests the olive wood during the yearly pruning (it's illegal to cut down an olive tree in Israel).


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## Seer

The only thing keeping California or any Olivewood from becoming BOW is the seller's integrity.  Anyone can make stuckers and such and stick it on anythin and the unsuspecting buyer would never know now would they.  Integrity is the only difference.


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## TellicoTurning

Smitty37 said:


> Bethlehem or Jerusalem....well guys, there really isn't much difference is there.  Bethlehem is a very short distance from Jerusalem no more than about 7 miles.  It makes perfect sense that the wood would ship from Jerusalem especially if coming by plane.



Actually it would probably come from Tel Aviv if by plane... that the the primary airport out of Israel.


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## TellicoTurning

Andrew Arndts said:


> What American Governing overseer of such imported items. Who would be the office to see if this is actual BOW/JOW or not? I would assume the Federal Trade Commission. We are concerned citizens and if we are in agreement that perhaps we need to get a handle on this.  Since the price warrants a Billions of our dollars being spent... Other woodworking forums might want to get involved with us.



The FTC probably would not be involved.. U.S. Customs would verify the origin and legality of the export to the U.S., and the legality of the import into the U.S., plus they would collect any duties due.... and since it is a wood product, would also have to be cleared by the Department of Agriculture with all the pertinent phyto certificates.


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## TellicoTurning

Seer said:


> The only thing keeping California or any Olivewood from becoming BOW is the seller's integrity.  Anyone can make stuckers and such and stick it on anythin and the unsuspecting buyer would never know now would they.  Integrity is the only difference.



My opinion also... I have several pieces of Olivewood with cute little certificates... I don't use the certificates and tell my customers that the wood is Olivewood and some of it MAY be from the holy land, but I can't verify nor confirm.  If they like it, they buy, otherwise they don't.


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## TellicoTurning

PenMan1 said:


> The Country of Origin on Customs manifest is Israel. If that is good enough for Uncle Sam and the Israeli Government, it's good enough for me.




The Certificate of Origin is a rather nebulous document... depending on how you word things as to what you can claim as the country of origin.  A commercial invoice that originated in Israel, would likely show the country of origin as Israel... by U.S. customs interpretation, if a product has been significantly modified in one country, that can become the country of origin... the wood shipped in log form and imported into one country, then processed, dried, cut and repackaged so that it no longer resembles it's original form in another country, could then claim that country of origin from the country processing the wood, even though it actually grew in another country.... 

I sell olivewood products as Olivewood... I don't use the COA's I have received because from the looks of them, they have been reprinted many times and aren't significantly believable... just my take on the issue.
And so far, I don't think it has made a significant difference in my sales.


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## mwenman

I don't use the certificates nor the stickers and like others, just state that it is Olive wood that may or may not have come from the Holy Land.

One would almost have to wonder if all olive trees in the world are clones from trees that were originally from Bethlehem.  If so, then technically all olive blanks are BOW, but I'm sure that none of has enough time or beer available to be able to sufficiently research this for a difinitive answer.


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## robutacion

This same subject had me banned from 2 forums already, the Australian wood workers forum and the Canadian Paradise forum, with the later removing any and all, "signs" that I have had been a member, and I was there nearly 18 months.   There where lots of people in high places there selling BOW and they didn't like me, exposing the issue and loose sales, as people started to ask questions, they couldn't or din't want to answer. Lets see where this will take me here...!
I'm not going to be surprised if someone from their side will come here, screaming that was something else that got me banned...! Off-course it was...!

The truth, I tell you the truth and I will be clear and direct as always, maybe this time a little more direct as seems some people can't read between the lines, I have been telling the truth from day one, the problem as been that, the issue as been segmented in so many threads and posts that is nearly impossible to follow the full story.  It is happening at the moment here, from some of the comments I've read, some people have not seen or read some of the information that I had shared in the pass and very recently so, they are indeed asking questions that have already been answered by myself.

Someone mention recently that, "*was funny that no one has come to support my claim...!"  so I ask, why is that...???*
The answer has a few turns and directions but it comes to this, we have the fellows buying the Olive from Italy and process it at home (Israel) and sell all over the world as BOW (with all the stickers and printed certificates) as this has become a very profitable business, particularly among the religious groups which are the ones that made the situation in the first place.  Was their faith and believes that put the high price that BOW has today, they were the ones prepare to pay any money to have a piece of Olive wood from the Holy Land. 
They were the ones to travel to Bethlehem (Israel) to get that small piece of Holy Olive wood from the source.  This all started long, long ago and for some time the existent Olive wood was sufficient to the religious peregrines mostly Christians but not only.

Leaving Israel, we have those (particularly in countries like ours, but not only) that are buying local Olive wood or even cut it themselves and sell it as BOW with the respective printed certificates, after all it makes the whole thing believable, huh...??? remember that the word BOW represents double, triple or even more of its value in raw form, right...???

Then, we have those that know that it couldn't be BOW but they join the gang and make a good buck out of it, by continuing the scam, as they are buying it cheap with certificates that they know aren't real/authentic but hey, its all business, huh...? so who cares...?  You buy and don't ask questions so, its working, right...???

And about those pen maker fellows that are either buying any of the Olive pen blanks that come with the certificate only for the certificate as they know that they can get, in most cases, better figured Olive wood than those that came with the certificates, from local sources cheap, swap the blanks, make the pen and mark it as authentic BOW (with the respective certificate, stickers and whatever they can come up with, to ask for a premium price...!)

I saw some of these fellows actually making pens from both of these type (origin...???) woods and display them together so that they can claim that the $200 (as an example only, gets much higher than this, sometimes...!) pretty pen, with the certificate, is the true BOW and no other Olive wood (and they point/show the $30-$40 pen made of the less figured Olive wood) could ever produce such quality and figure.  Some go even further saying that the wood is from trees 2.000 year old, blessed and use as shade from Jesus himself...!  If you are a serious religious person, and if all this is said with some well rehearsed act and face expressions to match, some people will believe it without question and those $200 will come out of the wallets quick as a flash.

That's enough as examples (realities) even tough, *is no question that not everyone either selling Olive wood or making pens out of Olive, will be in these groups* so, lets ask the question, which answers the question made by this member on another post/thread, *why would these people be interested in come forwards and say anything...??? *"they" really hate my guts because I keep bringing the subject up to the open, hoping that one day someone with enough money and drive, decides to have blanks tested for DNA and have the origin of all these BOW blanks sources, sorted once and for all, stopping this very profitable black market and scam that has made already a lot of people very rich for too long, at the cost of peoples sincere and honest religious believes...!

I'm just starting..., this is going to be a long thread and listen to my words, someone will try to have this all thread closed down, before it gets deeper into the issue/problem, there will be a number of possible claims/reasons/excuses why the administration, particularly Curtis, should have this thread removed, lets see how long will take...!

Why is this such a issue for me, some will ask...???, bare with me, you will have your answer and much more, in times to come, and off-course if someone decides to accuse me of having a commercial interest or a conflict of interest because I also sell Olive wood, one of my 44 local wood species I collect and work with since I retired,(for those that didn't know so, I suggest you to read a little about what I do and have been doing for some time, before you jump in...!:wink, keep tuned, I will show you how wrong you are...!:wink::biggrin:

I'm going to recharge now and regroup, this issue has been tormenting me for long enough and I've used and unimaginable amount of time and energy on it so, stay tuned...!

Cheers
George


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## workinforwood

Ed's comments make sense to me.  And when Padre tells me there's Olive tree's in Israel but not tons of them, I really start to wonder what's up myself.  In my mind, Bethlehem Olive wood is from Bethlehem Israel, not just from Israel.  The historical significance would be that you are getting wood that is very old, like a couple thousand years old, and if it is not old, perhaps the significance is that it is simply from Bethlehem, birthplace of Jesus.  But, the sales of BOW are huge throughout the world and the world is a huge place.  The only way I can imagine sales of wood from the historic place to have a chance would be to wipe out the hole city and plant groves of Olive trees.  So my belief is that much of the wood is imported and simply called BOW and tagged and mailed from Israel.  I believe the whole thing has become a scam...possibly started as legit but I can't see how it could be any more.

In Hawaii there's hardly any sea shells.  There's not many sea creatures with shells there.  99.9 % of any creatures there that do have shells on them get picked up by the waves and smashed with incredible force against all the lava rocks on shore and in the ocean, turning the shells into course sand.  Yet, the sales of Hawaiian sea shells are huge.  Everywhere you go, there are Sea shells and necklaces and other jewelry items.  I bet the shells are all imported from Florida.   Is this off topic?  No..it completely relates.  You want Bethlehem Olivewood because it has religious significance.  You want Hawaiian sea shells because the land is mystical and you have never been there before, thus you want to take back a memorabilia of the island that reminds you of your time there.  But...you most likely scammed.


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## monophoto

It's called "marketing".  Marketing is creation of the perception of value.


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## randyrls

ed4copies said:


> If you picture "old town" in Chicago in the 70's or St. Augustine Fl--to this day--you have the same "mind picture" I have.




GOD Ed!  That comment brings back memories.  I spent an entire afternoon watching a glass blower making a spun glass sailing ship.  must have been 2 feet high!


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## rjwolfe3

Still waiting for proof that our suppliers are knowingly doing this. Until then I am willing to take my suppliers at their word. I am not naive, I know that this possibility exists. But I prefer proof over someone's opinion.


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## randyrls

NewLondon88 said:


> But ...but ... according to the Photos section of IAP, 99% of
> all olive wood must come from Bethlehem!
> must be a rilly rilly big forest, that Bethlehem..



The Olive wood for pens comes from trimmings.  Just as grape vines need to be trimmed to keep them producing grapes, the olive trees need to be trimmed to keep them producing olives.

Ghassan Darveesh (sp?) the proprietor of BOW appeared one day on the YAHOO Penturners group and offered some wood for pens.  I took him up on the offer and I love getting BOW from him.


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## Constant Laubscher

Here is the customs paperwork of the BOW I am getting.
I have to take the seller word on this and it is what I am doing for a while until proved otherwise. I have a couple of thousand of these blanks in stock and mainly using it for myself/kits.

Sure it only proofs of where it comes from but that puts me in the clear.

The problem is not only the BOW and where BOW comes from but there are so many ways that sellers here and all over the Internet deceive people by using lingo like ( Handpicked, Private Stash, Private source, Best I Have ever seen, the list goes on and on) just to triple the price and make people believe it is the best or better than what it really is. 
That to me is just as bad 


Since we talk about Jerusalem , Shall those with no sins throw the stones.


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## Smitty37

*Olivewood market*

I question that the market for Bethlehem olive wood is actually that big...It has special meaning to some Christians, but certainly not to all. 

Nearly all of the items I've seen made from "BOW" are quite small using far less wood than needed for a Pen Blank and to be honest, I think there would be as big or bigger market in the US for finished pens with cross or fish clips made from olivewood than for pen blanks.  Even those, I suspect would sell better (as momentos of the trip) in Israel than in the USA.

Maybe someone here can educate me but I just don't see a market for millions of BOW blanks or even all olivewood blanks from any source in the USA.  Let's let our ego's go for a second or two and recognize, that in the overall scheme of things pen turners are pretty small potatoes in the market for wood. In addition, with the hundreds of species of wood and all of the plastics and other materials available BOW is pretty small potatoes in the pen blank market.  

The price doesn't even seem that high to me, at PSI (at $13.95 for 4 blanks) it is less than half the price of most of the dyed burls and not all that much more than some of the other exotic woods

It almost seems to me that getting upset about this subject is much ado over nothing....but it has been an interesting thread.


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## Skye

I didnt read the 5 pages because the answer is simple to me. If the tree the branch was harvested from was sitting in the soil of The Holy Land, then it's where the blank is from.


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## rjwolfe3

Skye said:


> I didnt read the 5 pages because the answer is simple to me. If the tree the branch was harvested from was sitting in the soil of The Holy Land, then it's where the blank is from.




Skye, I love your answer!


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## Smitty37

*Blank*



Constant Laubscher said:


> Here is the customs paperwork of the BOW I am getting.
> I have to take the seller word on this and it is what I am doing for a while until proved otherwise. I have a couple of thousand of these blanks in stock and mainly using it for myself/kits.
> 
> Sure it only proofs of where it comes from but that puts me in the clear.
> 
> The problem is not only the BOW and where BOW comes from but there are so many ways that sellers here and all over the Internet deceive people by using lingo like ( Handpicked, Private Stash, Private source, Best I Have ever seen, the list goes on and on) just to triple the price and make people believe it is the best or better that what it really is.
> That to me is just as bad as.
> 
> Since we talk about Jerusalem , Shall those with no sins throw the stones.


 
The country of origin has been left blank on your item, but then it isn't signed either, and hasn't signed the declaration that it doesn't contain hazerdous or banned substances.  In addition, it doesn't say what kind of blanks they are....not much help to prove where your olivewood blanks originated.   

It is actually hard to believe how lax customs in in some respects  I notice the same kind of thing on my shipments from China.  I think our shipments are so small that they call them commercial samples and the paperwork is only about half completed.


----------



## bitshird

Smitty37 said:


> PenMan1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ed4copies said:
> 
> 
> 
> Chip (Padre), "due diligence" sounds very good. But, in good conscience, let's call it "cheap". I wanted to find a source that would eliminate the "middlemen" and put the money in someone's hands that could USE it. So, I went through a little more work than "taking the guy everyone knows" in Israel--he's already got enough business.
> 
> But I still like my mental picture better than the reality you paint---can I keep mine and add a few random military weapons???:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:
> 
> Sounds like an "existence" not a "life". I hope the money I spent makes this family's life a little brighter.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, the "real" truth comes out. Ed wants a supplier that can ship BOW wrapped around an Israeli AK47:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Nah AK's are a bit hard to handle in a crowd, to much muzzle rize. I think he want's a Desert Eagle or an Uzi, you could nearly stuff a blank in the muzzle of a 50 Cal. D.E. at least for a slimline, and carry an Uzi under a jacket.
Click to expand...


----------



## Padre

APOLOGY:
I did not start this thread to discredit anyone or call in to question anyone's business.  I merely was wondering what others have heard about BOW/JOW.  

I am sorry if this thread has been misconstrued as an attack on anyone or anyone's business.


----------



## robutacion

Skye said:


> I didnt read the 5 pages because the answer is simple to me. If the tree the branch was harvested from was sitting in the soil of The Holy Land, then it's where the blank is from.



Hi Skye,

I just had to interrupt my break, because your comment reflects the true reason of my claim...!

As simplistic and sensible your thoughts are of the issue, the reality and facts are very different, a very large percentage of what people are buying and paying for as, pen blanks from trees or branches harvested from sitting in the soil of the Holy Land, did in fact come from thousands of miles away and on the other side of the world, and that is the whole point, 95% of it the only time it set in Holy Land was when the containers were dropped at the ship yards in Israel or other near by...!

Why does't some of our big imports, send some of the blanks received from their Israeli suppliers, to a lab for testing...!  Any lab with the right equipment and expertise in wood identification, will very quickly(ish) but costly, determine many aspects of that sample and one of which would determine who is right, are the detailed brake down of the type of soils, nutrients, minerals, etc., the trees from where the wood (blanks) come from could have grown...! every one of these details are undoubtedly very different from Israel (Jerusalem/Bethlehem) and places like Italy and possibly other European locations.

Everyone of the Israeli suppliers claim in their web sites and certificates, etc., state/claim that all comes from the regular yearly trimming/pruning's the trees require to their maximum oil yield production, while these trims are a must, I will show everyone what they are, what they look like, and how much usable wood they produce.  This will be part of my repeated (I've done this before, elsewhere, some time ago) attempt to educate everyone about what the Olive tree.  You will be amazed how quickly, even those that know little about trees and certainly nothing about the Olive tree, will come to the realization that the trims claims in they sites are not physically possible to account for the wood sold (grain size/shape and growth rings, colour and others) as BOW from trimmings and certainly will demonstrate the very small amount of wood usable for pen blanks production.  Consider also that 99.90% of the trimmings available yearly, is done by the owners of the "few trees left" and part if not all make a living at making craft pieces using that same wood they collected from their own trimmings or from close relatives that own Olive trees, from years back, as the fresh/green branches are stored under ground in cool chambers where the wood dry slow in a very constant 20 to 25 degrees C.
Some will wait up to 9 years before they bring it up for processing but recently, with the greater limitation on trimmings due to reduced number of Olive trees in existence, they have had to resort on stored piles that aren't more than 2-3 years old and that has created lots of problems as some of their hand crafted pieces crack while being worked.  Most get repaired some are reused for smaller crafted pieces...!  In fact, since Italian quality Olive wood started to become easily available in they own country (Israel) some of these shops are using this wood for part of their own works, as the demand for these items has increased significantly, these last decade or so.

If the only way for some of you to fully understand what I'm talking about, is to have me to educate you on the issue of Olive Trees, that's fine by me.  I look forwards to see what your opinions are after I'm done...!:wink::biggrin:

These are some of the available web sites and videos dedicated specifically to Olive Trees issues, have a good look around and spend the time watching these videos, this first series are all in a language that we all can understand! 

*- http://www.growquest.com/Fruit%20trees%20-%20better%20plant/olive_tree_varieties.htm

*- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHYA11NYIes&feature=player_embedded

*-http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyvMm9LW2-4

*-http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOxFX4JtXOo&feature=related

Now gets go directly to Holy Land...!

*-http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrbMP9hRNeo

*-http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-HXm_cx-LU&feature=related

*-http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcpYuPxjJHw&feature=related

*-http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xEApSnFPIA&feature=related

*-http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LcL6nhua6hs

*-http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anjsDjPvsN8&feature=related

*-http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CbI2ZQeDtZ0

*-http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EaRQoP29WgY&feature=related

*-http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCf7unJ1FAM

There are many other videos available and a search on the subject would produce many more results.  Take particular attention to size of wood that result from pruning, also look at the size of the average tree growing in Israel particularly those in Jerusalem and Bethlehem, they very small/young compared with the few that are left of considerable age, all under special observation and used as the remaining "symbols" of times long gone...!

Just stop and think for a minute or two, how much workable wood is really there...!

Cheers
George


----------



## robutacion

Padre said:


> APOLOGY:
> I did not start this thread to discredit anyone or call in to question anyone's business.  I merely was wondering what others have heard about BOW/JOW.
> 
> I am sorry if this thread has been misconstrued as an attack on anyone or anyone's business.



Padre,

There is no doubt that some of our BOW suppliers, are going to get furious with this issue, and I would too, If I was told that, is a very good possibility that their BOW blanks are not BOW blanks in the true sense of what they should be.

Is also inevitable that those with a reasonable amount invested in this product, will start to get concerned about that possibility, after all when they start to get the facts, is obvious that they will have some questions of their own...! 

The question is, have they ever though that a country with the difficulties and tribulations they have been trough for so long, could maintain and increase the production of a product that has been, if not destroyed totally, has been reduced well under of what their own internal needs require...???  If you haven't thought of that, don't you thing that would be time to give it some consideration and in many cases understand why so many of the original Israeli BOW suppliers found themselves without the (their own) product to sell, after a reputation and business was established...???

The need to keep their source of revenue alive, they had to do something, sourcing identical product from elsewhere was the only option for many of them.  The situation got worse when the "replenishment" of their raw material has become easily obtainable and affordable for them to continue their business but, this certain influx of imported Olive wood, has attracted many other individuals that all of a certain could get into the business of selling Holy wood to the world, without any difficulties, after all the monopoly of the local Holy wood was taken by a few older crafts people that has had that monopoly for generations, not allowing any new comers to get involved but now, the situation was totally different and they had as much opportunity to the imported and abundant Olive wood as anyone else.

I honestly wouldn't expect most of those older suppliers of BOW from the Holy Land to give up, or tell to the world that the local stock has been exhausted, so the wood was imported...!  that would be the end of their business as it stood, people expect Holy Olive wood from the Holy Land as BOW, as that is that...! Almost everyone is prepared to pay extra for the genuine product but, if the circumstances dictate that may be reasonable to question the authenticity of what they are buying/paying for at premium prices, I see no reason why they shouldn't...!

Cheers
George


----------



## Padre

robutacion said:


> Padre said:
> 
> 
> 
> APOLOGY:
> I did not start this thread to discredit anyone or call in to question anyone's business.  I merely was wondering what others have heard about BOW/JOW.
> 
> I am sorry if this thread has been misconstrued as an attack on anyone or anyone's business.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Padre,
> 
> There is no doubt that some of our BOW suppliers, are going to get furious with this issue, and I would too, If I was told that, is a very good possibility that their BOW blanks are not BOW blanks in the true sense of what they should be.
> 
> Is also inevitable that those with a reasonable amount invested in this product, will start to get concerned about that possibility, after all when they start to get the facts, is obvious that they will have some questions of their own...!
> 
> The question is, have they ever though that a country with the difficulties and tribulations they have been trough for so long, could maintain and increase the production of a product that has been, if not destroyed totally, has been reduced well under of what their own internal needs require...???  If you haven't thought of that, don't you thing that would be time to give it some consideration and in many cases understand why so many of the original Israeli BOW suppliers found themselves without the (their own) product to sell, after a reputation and business was established...???
> 
> The need to keep their source of revenue alive, they had to do something, sourcing identical product from elsewhere was the only option for many of them.  The situation got worse when the "replenishment" of their raw material has become easily obtainable and affordable for them to continue their business but, this certain influx of imported Olive wood, has attracted many other individuals that all of a certain could get into the business of selling Holy wood to the world, without any difficulties, after all the monopoly of the local Holy wood was taken by a few older crafts people that has had that monopoly for generations, not allowing any new comers to get involved but now, the situation was totally different and they had as much opportunity to the important and abundant Olive wood as anyone else.
> 
> I honestly wouldn't expect most of those older suppliers of BOW from the Holy Land to give up, or tell to the world that the local stock has been exhausted, so the wood was imported...!  that would be the end of their business as it stood, people expect Holy Olive wood from the Holy Land as BOW, as that is that...! Almost everyone is prepared to pay extra for the genuine product but, if the circumstances dictate that may be reasonable to question the authenticity of what they are buying/paying for at premium prices, I see no reason why they shouldn't...!
> 
> Cheers
> George
Click to expand...


George,
Oh my!  My apology was not for the suppliers, but for the folks of IAP.  If the large suppliers are misleading us, then we should know!


----------



## Lawrence Witter

*re: BOW source*

Padre,

Do you watch any of the many TV shows featuring the latest and greatest crime labs? Just send a sample of the wood to your local crime lab and they should be able to pinpoint where it was grown and who planted it. Just a thought, maybe not a great thought but a thought none-the-less.

Regards,

Larry


----------



## Padre

Lawrence Witter said:


> Padre,
> 
> Do you watch any of the many TV shows featuring the latest and greatest crime labs? Just send a sample of the wood to your local crime lab and they should be able to pinpoint where it was grown and who planted it. Just a thought, maybe not a great thought but a thought none-the-less.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Larry



CSI Miami! :biggrin:


----------



## Smitty37

Lawrence Witter said:


> Padre,
> 
> Do you watch any of the many TV shows featuring the latest and greatest crime labs? Just send a sample of the wood to your local crime lab and they should be able to pinpoint where it was grown and who planted it. Just a thought, maybe not a great thought but a thought none-the-less.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Larry


And when they planted it, what the planter was wearing when the tree was planted, and how many puppies his neighbor's dog had in it's last litter.


----------



## TellicoTurning

Padre said:


> Lawrence Witter said:
> 
> 
> 
> Padre,
> 
> Do you watch any of the many TV shows featuring the latest and greatest crime labs? Just send a sample of the wood to your local crime lab and they should be able to pinpoint where it was grown and who planted it. Just a thought, maybe not a great thought but a thought none-the-less.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Larry
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CSI Miami! :biggrin:
Click to expand...


And then we could get a great line from David Carouso... 

that wood be a greater crime.:biggrin::biggrin:


----------



## TellicoTurning

Smitty37 said:


> Lawrence Witter said:
> 
> 
> 
> Padre,
> 
> Do you watch any of the many TV shows featuring the latest and greatest crime labs? Just send a sample of the wood to your local crime lab and they should be able to pinpoint where it was grown and who planted it. Just a thought, maybe not a great thought but a thought none-the-less.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Larry
> 
> 
> 
> And when they planted it, what the planter was wearing when the tree was planted, and how many puppies his neighbor's dog had in it's last litter.
Click to expand...


and in about 15 minutes too... specially in NCIS's Abby Scuitto's lab... :biggrin::biggrin:

Who BTW is pretty cute for a forensic scientist.


----------



## MesquiteMan

TellicoTurning said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lawrence Witter said:
> 
> 
> 
> Padre,
> 
> Do you watch any of the many TV shows featuring the latest and greatest crime labs? Just send a sample of the wood to your local crime lab and they should be able to pinpoint where it was grown and who planted it. Just a thought, maybe not a great thought but a thought none-the-less.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Larry
> 
> 
> 
> And when they planted it, what the planter was wearing when the tree was planted, and how many puppies his neighbor's dog had in it's last litter.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> and in about 15 minutes too... specially in NCIS's Abby Scuitto's lab... :biggrin::biggrin:
> 
> Who BTW is pretty cute for a forensic scientist.
Click to expand...


With all of it being done in a dimly lit lab as well!


----------



## ed4copies

Sorry, I don't watch TV  (no content except the good ADS!!)

But, what I have read is:
A "pretty cute forensic scientist" in a "dimly lit lab"

Are you guys advertising for the Playboy channel???


----------



## Padre

TellicoTurning said:


> Padre said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lawrence Witter said:
> 
> 
> 
> Padre,
> 
> Do you watch any of the many TV shows featuring the latest and greatest crime labs? Just send a sample of the wood to your local crime lab and they should be able to pinpoint where it was grown and who planted it. Just a thought, maybe not a great thought but a thought none-the-less.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Larry
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CSI Miami! :biggrin:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And then we could get a great line from David Carouso...
> 
> that wood be a greater crime.:biggrin::biggrin:
Click to expand...


OMG!!! You made me spit out my iced tea!!!!  ROTFL!!!:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:


----------



## broitblat

So, the "certificates" I have from bethlehemolivewood.net say:

"Your purchase is a product made of authentic Bethlehem Holy Land olive wood.  This wood has been bearing fruits in the Nativity town of Bethelehem since the time of Jesus"

A little bit less equivocal, but that doesn't mean it couldn't be misleading or worse...

  -Barry


----------



## robutacion

Hi everyone,

If I recall correctly, someone very recently has shown pics of a BOW certificate and some stickers in a previous post, and I would like to gather here a few examples of what people has been receiving from their sources as BOW certificates and other stuff.

I have one type to add here, and I would like the person that posted that recent cert pics, to post them here also (keep all together...!) I would like also to ask everyone else that has ant cert. etc., different them those shown to scan, zoom them as shows as a pic file.

If you recognize any of the certificates shown here, would be appreciated if you let us know and where they come from.  

*NOTE:* I would prefer and suggest that you don't disclose any names of either individuals or businesses, simply tells us the country, state where you purchased those blanks from and what you were told as the origin of them are...!

It will be interesting to see how many type of BOW certificates are out there, what they say and how it is said...!:wink::biggrin:

Due to the risk/possibility that any of these pics could endup in someone's printer for "multiple" printing, I suggest/recommend that you put a water mark of some nature over the pic, big enough to be noticed and unusable for "reproduction"...!:wink::biggrin:

Cheers
George


----------



## desertrat

*IF A FROG HAD WING'S HE WOULDN'T BUMP HIS BUTT ALL THE TIME!*
 
desertrat


----------



## Padre

My certs are on the first post of this thread


----------



## ldb2000

desertrat said:


> *IF A FROG HAD WING'S HE WOULDN'T BUMP HIS BUTT ALL THE TIME!*
> 
> desertrat


 
I have to ask . What does this have to do with the price of beans from Brazil ? .... or this thread , for that matter ????


----------



## rjwolfe3

I think what he is implying is that this whole discussion about BOW and whether or not it is from Israel or some other country is pointless and not necessary. Or at least that is what I got out of it.




ldb2000 said:


> desertrat said:
> 
> 
> 
> *IF A FROG HAD WING'S HE WOULDN'T BUMP HIS BUTT ALL THE TIME!*
> 
> desertrat
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have to ask . What does this have to do with the price of beans from Brazil ? .... or this thread , for that matter ????
Click to expand...


----------



## arioux

ldb2000 said:


> desertrat said:
> 
> 
> 
> *IF A FROG HAD WING'S HE WOULDN'T BUMP HIS BUTT ALL THE TIME!*
> 
> desertrat
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have to ask . What does this have to do with the price of beans from Brazil ? .... or this thread , for that matter ????
Click to expand...


This thread speaks the thruth !!  Well i trust it as much as some say i can thrust the certificate of authenticity.


----------



## ldb2000

Well which is it , The Truth or Not necessary . I for one would like to know !!! I don't like selling something that I can't feel 100% sure of the authenticity of the claims . I'm hoping that George has some facts to back up his claims , although through logic I must say that if all the BOW I see being sold came from trees planted in the Holy land , there wouldn't be any trees left to prune .


----------



## rjwolfe3

I totally agree. I would especially love to see some proof. I agree that we need to be careful of whom we buy from. I would be concerned with buying from Ebay but if I buy direct from Israel or from one of our suppliers that everyone uses, I think it is a safe bet that it is BOW and not IOW (Italian Olive Wood).




ldb2000 said:


> Well which is it , The Truth or Not necessary . I for one would like to know !!! I don't like selling something that I can't feel 100% sure of the authenticity of the claims . I'm hoping that George has some facts to back up his claims , although through logic I must say that if all the BOW I see being sold came from trees planted in the Holy land , there wouldn't be any trees left to prune .


----------



## arioux

ldb2000 said:


> Well which is it , The Truth or Not necessary . I for one would like to know !!! I don't like selling something that I can't feel 100% sure of the authenticity of the claims . I'm hoping that George has some facts to back up his claims , although through logic I must say that if all the BOW I see being sold came from trees planted in the Holy land , there wouldn't be any trees left to prune .



Many trees have been uprooted in the last few years, giving a lot of lumber.    Over 300,000 in the Gaza srip alone.  Olive tree cover 51% of the agricultural ground, a lot lot of trees.

http://www.poica.org/editor/case_studies/view.php?recordID=903


----------



## rjwolfe3

Well there ya go, almost 25,000 trees in Bethlehem alone. I wager you could probably get more then a couple of blanks from one tree.




arioux said:


> ldb2000 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well which is it , The Truth or Not necessary . I for one would like to know !!! I don't like selling something that I can't feel 100% sure of the authenticity of the claims . I'm hoping that George has some facts to back up his claims , although through logic I must say that if all the BOW I see being sold came from trees planted in the Holy land , there wouldn't be any trees left to prune .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Many trees have been uprooted in the last few years, giving a lot of lumber.    Over 300,000 in the Gaza srip alone.  Olive tree cover 51% of the agricultural ground, a lot lot of trees.
> 
> http://www.poica.org/editor/case_studies/view.php?recordID=903
Click to expand...


----------



## ldb2000

While the web site that Alfred posted claims to document truthfully what's happening there it is also very biased against Israel so the numbers posted could be way off the actual numbers . Also if the trees are uprooted you have to remember that it is not done in a gentle manner . Have you ever seen what trees look like that have been bulldozed , the amount of usable wood is reduced by a large number . There are still many , many unanswered questions here so this thread is not something to take lightly . We need unbiased proof of what George claims .


----------



## arioux

I understand your point.  I don't try to make the thread go one way or an other.  I posted that on your comment that there where many blanks on the market and few trees.  There are millions of olive trees there and they take down 1000's every year..  I've been there twice in the last 2 years.  They use bulldozer to take the tree down but if you look at an olive tree, it won't suffert that much from this treatment, specially the older ones.   They harvest them witjh full traler pull by their mule.  Now i don't say that there could not be fake BOW out there but if you by them from establish Bethleem source, they are real.  I've seen shed with more wood than you can imagine.  It's just that it is reguralized (sp?) and only a few are licence to market it.  

Now for people that say that pruning don't produce piece big enough, here is a viseo of olive tree pruning.  Look at the larger branch that get cut of.  altough they are from spain, the principe is the same for all olive trees.  Also look at the field on the openning images.  There are hundreds of those fields in Israel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyvMm9LW2-4


----------



## Padre

Ok, I'm not gonna' be quiet anymore.

Look, it's simple.  

Go to Google.  Go to maps.  Go to Bethlehem, Israel.  Go to satellite view.  See how arid it is?  See those sparsely placed green dots?  Those are trees.  Maybe 1 in 10 is an olive tree.  The groves are all little backyard groves.  And if there are trimmings, which there are, are sold locally to people like the Nissan brothers at the Bethlehem New Store and a dozen of other smaller stores that hawk their wares to all of the tourists.  That's where the real money is, not in pen blanks.

Do the same search for Jerusalem.  Arid, BIG city, not much agriculture there at all, mostly buildings and tourist attractions.

There is more planting of date palms than olive trees.  Faster yield, higher yield, bigger profit. If there were so many olive trees in Israel, why aren't they one of the leading producers of olive oil?  Well, those honors go to Spain, which is the top producer, followed by Italy, Portugal and Greece, with Australia gaining ground.

I've been there and I know other IAP members have as well.  I'm tellin' ya', it all can't be genuine BOW/JOW.

There just aren't enough trees/trimming to supply the locals let alone all the pen turners of the world.


----------



## ed4copies

I've been there and I know other IAP members have as well.  I'm tellin' ya', it all can't be genuine BOW/JOW.

Chip,

How much is "it all"??

What is the amount imported and sold in the USA per year?  

I just received several hundred blanks--less than 2 cubic feet.  Or, relating it to the many trees in my yard, one 6" apple "arm" cut off or broken off in a wind storm is about 10-15 feet long.  This is about 9.5 cubic feet.  I lose dozens every year.  So how much are we really using??

Did my 600 blanks make a dent??  I doubt it.  But how many sources in the USA order 600 per year??  I'm guessing at most a dozen.

Just a little food for thought.  Recognize we are ALL guessing here--what I know for certain is the box came from Israel---seems likely the wood IN the box also came from Israel.

Yes, I COULD be wrong.  I consider it more likely that the amount of wood we are using is MUCH SMALLER than you all are Guessing.

How many BOW pens have been posted this year??  That would be a starting point.


----------



## Padre

ed4copies said:


> I've been there and I know other IAP members have as well.  I'm tellin' ya', it all can't be genuine BOW/JOW.
> 
> Chip,
> 
> How much is "it all"??
> 
> What is the amount imported and sold in the USA per year?
> 
> I just received several hundred blanks--less than 2 cubic feet.  Or, relating it to the many trees in my yard, one 6" apple "arm" cut off or broken off in a wind storm is about 10-15 feet long.  This is about 9.5 cubic feet.  I lose dozens every year.  So how much are we really using??
> 
> Did my 600 blanks make a dent??  I doubt it.  But how many sources in the USA order 600 per year??  I'm guessing at most a dozen.
> 
> Just a little food for thought.  Recognize we are ALL guessing here--what I know for certain is the box came from Israel---seems likely the wood IN the box also came from Israel.
> 
> Yes, I COULD be wrong.  I consider it more likely that the amount of wood we are using is MUCH SMALLER than you all are Guessing.
> 
> How many BOW pens have been posted this year??  That would be a starting point.



Ed, again, not trying to say you haven't done your homework, etc., and your wood is most likely from Israel, grown in Israel.

BUT, having said that, the amount of olivewood available out there, on Ebay especially, I don't think it all could be native Israeli wood.  Just like the diamonds on Ebay, or the historical documents on Ebay.  Buyer beware.

Will I buy from BOW from Ebay?  No.  Will I buy BOW from exoticblanks?  Yes.  Because you do, as much as you can, due diligence of your suppliers.  That's what counts.

I am just saying that with all the pen makers in the world, the IAP just being the tip of the iceberg, I seriously, seriously doubt it is all from Israel.

BUT!!!  I could also be very wrong.  That's happened before.:tongue:


----------



## ed4copies

As you know, Chip, I am not trying to argue, nor do I believe you are.

The question is reasonable---

Unfortunately, I have no experience with EBay, so I am certainly NOT trying to defend THEIR allegations--they could all be very dishonest and I wouldn't know or care.

As a "copier expert" I do agree that the "COA's" look like very late generation (copies of copies of copies).  So, that would lead one to be suspicious.  However, I also feel (OPINION!!!!!--not FACT) that the local printer would make these for everyone who exports--so it probably does NOT relate to the source, as much as to the quality of the "quick printers" in Israel.

But, looking at the blanks I have, they are nicer than any I have purchased in the past.  And I have, knowingly, purchased California olive that was pretty nicely figured, for my own pens and peppermills--over a decade ago.

It makes for good conversation, but I still feel comfortable that the wood is from trees in Israel.  Now, whether they are Jerusalem or Bethlehem----that could be VERY mirky without surprising me.

But I will keep them separated as they were represented when sold to me.  Just in case the seller was an honest Jew!!! (I'm told there are such folks!!)


----------



## Padre

ed4copies said:


> As you know, Chip, I am not trying to argue, nor do I believe you are.
> 
> The question is reasonable---
> 
> Unfortunately, I have no experience with EBay, so I am certainly NOT trying to defend THEIR allegations--they could all be very dishonest and I wouldn't know or care.
> 
> As a "copier expert" I do agree that the "COA's" look like very late generation (copies of copies of copies).  So, that would lead one to be suspicious.  However, I also feel (OPINION!!!!!--not FACT) that the local printer would make these for everyone who exports--so it probably does NOT relate to the source, as much as to the quality of the "quick printers" in Israel.
> 
> But, looking at the blanks I have, they are nicer than any I have purchased in the past.  And I have, knowingly, purchased California olive that was pretty nicely figured, for my own pens and peppermills--over a decade ago.
> 
> It makes for good conversation, but I still feel comfortable that the wood is from trees in Israel.  Now, whether they are Jerusalem or Bethlehem----that could be VERY mirky without surprising me.
> 
> But I will keep them separated as they were represented when sold to me.  Just in case the seller was an honest Jew!!! (I'm told there are such folks!!)



I can't wait for my retirement check to come in!  Watch out exotics!:biggrin:


----------



## Padre

For instance, look at this Ebay seller, even this seller acknowledges that a lot of sellers are 'alleged.'


----------



## ed4copies

Would you like some nice clean, newly-type set COA's??

I can have them ready in a couple hours:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:


----------



## robutacion

Padre said:


> For instance, look at this Ebay seller, even this seller acknowledges that a lot of sellers are 'alleged.'



I was just preparing and answer for Ed but your link is a good example of what I'm talking about...!

The very first claim he/she makes is"WE'RE  THE ONLY SUPPLIERS OF BETHLEHEM OLIVE WOOD PEN BLANKS WORLDWIDE
then further down, and after he/she states that anyone else's BOW is not...! 
he/she claims, "We are the main suppliers of Bethlehem& Jerusalem Holy land olive wood pen blanks worldwide.

I sell on eBay, I know what is all about but, eBay is only one part of the problem...!

It saddens me to see people, particular new pen turners but not only, mentioning BOW as if it was a something else but Olive wood.  For the majority of them, is not they fault really, as they get brain washed without realizing that BOW is the Olive wood there is so, any time they thing Olive wood, the only word that they know how to identify such product is BOW, not even realising or knowing what it means...!

I hope that, by the time this issue is exhausted, people will have a better understanding of what Olive wood really is and what BOW should be...!

Cheers
George


----------



## PenMan1

I've got a "certificate of authencity", A customs declaration, recongnized as authentic, by the United States of America and the Government of Israel, AND the word of the family (with no passports) that gathered the wood, that all affirm that my wood is from Bethlehem, Israel.

Just because some guy on IAP says it comes from Italy, doesn't make it so. Additonally, Israel is COVERED with DEAD olivewood (bombs blow up trees as well as people). 

IF you choose to believe that a people known for their pragmatism would pay import AND export duties to sell a product that they trip over on the roadside, I respect your opinion.

Finally, I have made a "good faith" effort to purchase an authentic product. It would really be hard to prove me wrong. ADDITIONALLY, I have a 100% satisfaction warranty. If my customer just "thinks" it's fake... I'll buy the pen back at full purchase price...SO far, I've had no takers on the return policy.

Where IS that dead horse cartoon?


----------



## robutacion

*Olive Tree story...! (1)*

Hi everyone,

I'm going to proceed with my educational attempt to give everyone a good idea of what Olive wood is.  

This will answer a lot of people questions and doubts and for many of you, the first time ever such information was provided free of charge, so take it as a learning experience and knowledge gathering.

Many of you have been wondering, what makes me an "authority" in this matter and what do I know that you don't already know about it..??? You will be the judge of that when I'm finished...!

Just a little background;

Born and lived in Portugal until the age of 30, "one" (third I think...!) of the bigger sources of Olive oil products on the world.  There were 4 things that I grow with as a little kid, Pine forests, grape-vines, fruit trees and Olive trees, in no particular order.
As a little "village" kid I was taught how to hand-pic the olives, bad and carry them to the mill (stone crasher) first, followed as I grown to stick picker (long sticks to "bash/shake" the olives out of the tallest branches, followed by one of the most regarded and critical jobs/processes one can do working with fruiting Olive trees, and there is, the annual pruning/trimming, light or heavy type.

At the age of 17 my ancestors (my masters) were satisfied that I had a good "neck for it" as they would say...!, and I was allowed to join them on that very "special" job.  The trees that I worked with or seen where hundreds of years old, the county is about 900 years old and some of those tree were planted by those before us. (once I knew all the history and names, dates, etc., but I forgotten all that...!:frown, sorry.

As a young man, I had already experienced all the "initiations" "put through the rings" as it is known here, one young village man is submitted to, if it is found to have the natural skill and tendency, recognised and decide upon by your elders...!  I remember to be attempting to slip Olive wood as firewood sat a such young age that I hardly could lift the axe...!:biggrin:

Anyway, I become very involved with the local wood industry (pine plantations, wood mills, etc., etc.) very early and I spend a few years with a an old master carpenter/carver as a apprentice to acquire enough knowledge to be recognised as a carpenter myself.  By the age of 19 and just before I was called to the compulsory army time (2 years approx.) and sent to a war in Mozambique (Africa) as a spinner paratrooper that wasn't mine but, created by politics to which cost me a broken spine, 2 years in a wheel-chair and years of physiotherapy, I was doing a lot of carpentry jobs around town and cutting a lot of trees, milling them and do all sorts of things with the wood.

One of the most sourced woods for high end furniture, carving and rich people's interior design pieces was the Olive wood, to which I had access from a few trees, some that were uprooted by storms (very rare) but most were trees that had to be removed due to urbanization and some years later full olive groves bulldozed out to be replaced by new plantations of eucalyptus trees for the production of paper, which was responsible for large number of other trees being removed and replaced by this new profitable income (more than olive oil) to the land owners...!

Most of the Olive wood available (plenty off) was used as firewood or for the production of under-ground charcoal as a fundamental heat source in those days.  There was a limited number of trees that ever seen a mill, as most of them due to age = large cracks, wood separation, hollow most times, curled/curved/bent/bowed/short, etc., only a few had enough timber yield size to be milled and that was one of my specialities, select the Olive trees (that had to come down, ONLY, never, I mean never I was allowed or wished to cut a ancient or not Olive tree that had no reason to be cut down, I still use that same principle today...!) that could produce timber, cut, transport them to the mill and process them myself.  

The wood (planks/boards) will then stacked outside for air-drying for some time before they would be used for making furniture and other items, which I supplied to other carpenters local and not so local, in fact I did have master carvers and other furniture making people, ordering this Olive wood from hundreds of miles away...!  In those days, a carpenter is someone that has the skill to work with timber from it very beginning, from planting the trees to selecting the trees that have to be cut depending of what they would be used for, right to the final product, regardless if is a house, a floor a shed, a box, a piece of furniture, a boat, a kids toy, a air-plain propeller, a carved rosette, you name it...!:wink: I was and have been, one of those.

After arrival in Australia (1987), I pursued a child dream and a passion I had also and that took me to the most deserted and inhospitable places in existence in this country (Australia) for about 16 years.  Timber, trees were not part of my life for all that time nor they could be, in some places I've worked on, the next tree was about 100 miles towards the sunset...!:frown:

Since the moment that I concluded that, I had reached the end of the road with that career, physically, emotionally and "other" (6 years ago), I became a disability pensioner living in a place where I got all the other thinks I like and missed, particularly the trees.  This location was chosen by some of our European Settlers for a reason, it has identical characteristics to those experienced in our countries of birth, particularly if you are a mature adult when you leave...!

Back to Olive trees, I started collecting/gathering/salvaging wood/trees as soon as I could and with the help of my wife, I has/have been able to gather a considerable amount of wood from the local area for my wood-turning hobby that did became more of an obsession than anything else for some time, after all I was gathering plenty of wood, indeed a lot more than I could ever use.

One of the first woods that I tried to get was the Olive wood but soon I realised that it wasn't going to be easy as most of the old trees have been cut and destroyed (burnt), many other Olive trees found in the area are young (5 to 30 years) and the older ones are either own by Government (Council) or own by private owners that are not going to allow anyone touch them.  A large percentage of the old trees have not been pruned for 30 years or more, producing olives every year that are discarded (left to rot) as its quality would be as good as it could be, nor these people need or wish to bother with the expense of having them picked and crashed for oil production.

Unfortunately, most of the first Olive trees planted in Australia (about 1840"s) were ripped out in the 60's and 70's as the original owners were no longer alive, the olive oil consumption in Australia did never reach the levels require/desired, therefore removed and replaced with other trees, such as fruit trees and vineyards in particular.
Off-course, that did all change in these last 2 decades or so, where the olive oil consumption in Australia was finally accepted as a good and healthy alternative, and its consumption has increased 1.000% or more...!

What you see now, particularly these last 10 years, is Olive trees that are young and a phenomenal increase of small Olive groves being planted everywhere.  These are mostly generically modified Olive trees that are design specifically as faster growers, to produce more and better fruit, be small in size to allow the mechanical use of fruit picking machines and all other sorts of mechanical tools now introduced to hand-picking.  These Olive trees are different in appearance, bark, and will never be wood producers, their size is very small compared with the old type Olive trees.

For the first nearly 3 years of the 6 mentioned previously, I did a lot of Olive tree trimming/pruning on the local Olive groves, free of charge in exchange for the rights of hand picking what I wanted before it would be either cut for firewood or burnt on site, in those 3 years I never managed to get a log/piece that would big enough to turn a small dish out of it, much less a fruit/salad bowl even if a small one.  Some of the best trimmings I had, were from some of the old trees that people wanted to keep them pruned regularly (annually) to keep producing good fruit/good quality oil.

I kept doing it for the hope that would get something better, the new Olive trees don't have much or nearly any of heartwood in the wood even if the branches are 4" diameter or more :redface:.  The demand for me to do this work every year, was certainly more that what I could ever coupe with, I'm too heavy to be playing "monkey" and was no really return for my effort but for those that I was doing the work for and quickly spread, this guy working for free in exchange for "rubbish" was a very good deal to them after all, each day's work I did pruning, save them $300 per day, this is what they have to pay for someone doing this sort of work...!

The benefit really was that I was getting known and meeting a lot of Italians and other people that were now owners of Olive trees and that has helped me to find someone 3 years ago that had 9 of the first Olive trees planted in Australia that had to come out (that has its own story, but not now), thanks...!:biggrin. They have cost me a fortune to secure as my property and I am to have them removed, including roots that are bigger that a small car, holes filled and everything clean, including burning small branches, etc., has the property owner see fit, as the trees are in 3 separate groups and they can only be removed when he is ready.  The first group of 3 were removed not longer after (about 2 1/2 years ago), the next group was suppose to have been removed a few months back but he changed his mind for another year or so and all the 9 Olive trees will have to be remove completely by 2017 (part of the contract/negotiations).

The Olive wood I have been working with (I've spent 7 days straight of green turning large bowl blanks, after I got the wood home - storage paddock) and the one that I've been selling in all sorts of sizes and shapes, including log form, has come from these 3 trees and I hope that I can last long enough to get the rest of them, I'm certainly hopped that, when I secured the "deal"...!:wink:

A lot of people have been turning this wood for some time, and I have made sure that this wood is not only affordable by rich people (I have nothing against rich people, I which that I had that power too...!), and a lot of people have seen the trees before, during and after they were cut, including some of the humongous roots, they've seen me cutting them and my wife helping out, they seen me slabbing some of the best logs, they saw many of the blanks I made out of them and pieces that I have been turning for my own use and satisfaction, after all, I waited long enough, didn't I...??? Do I know anything about Olive wood...??? well, I should...!:wink:

To be continued...!

Cheers
George


----------



## workinforwood

Average life span of an olive tree is 500-900 yrs, with proper care.  There are some that are 2000 yrs old, but those are extremely rare.  The odds of a single olive tree in Bethlehem living that long are low, let alone enough olive tree's to provide trimmings for 10's of thousands of pen blanks.  Simply meaning that the odds of anyone having BOW from a tree that existed while Jesus did, are very low.  Doesn't mean you can't get BOW, but not likely from that far back.


----------



## robutacion

PenMan1 said:


> I've got a "certificate of authencity", A customs declaration, recongnized as authentic, by the United States of America and the Government of Israel, AND the word of the family (with no passports) that gathered the wood, that all affirm that my wood is from Bethlehem, Israel.
> 
> Just because some guy on IAP says it comes from Italy, doesn't make it so. Additonally, Israel is COVERED with DEAD olivewood (bombs blow up trees as well as people).
> 
> IF you choose to believe that a people known for their pragmatism would pay import AND export duties to sell a product that they trip over on the roadside, I respect your opinion.
> 
> Finally, I have made a "good faith" effort to purchase an authentic product. It would really be hard to prove me wrong. ADDITIONALLY, I have a 100% satisfaction warranty. If my customer just "thinks" it's fake... I'll buy the pen back at full purchase price...SO far, I've had no takers on the return policy.
> 
> Where IS that dead horse cartoon?



I respect your opinion, but and with all due respect, I disagree with you...!

I think that is has been agreed by the customs papers and shipping stumps showing that the boxes was posted in/from Israel, is not really much a proof in regards to the authenticity of the wood origin, and I have also revealed one of my sources  and the owner himself, of one of the larger olive wood mills in Italy that has been cutting/processing local Olive wood and send it by the container full to Israel.  One of this large purchases/orders were made by an Israeli gentleman that visit the factory/mill in Italy and and gave specifics instructions of how the timber should be cut.

Anyway, I didn't know that you sell "BOW" pen blanks, nor I have any intentions to know who sells this product, that never was and still is not my point.

My point/claim is, there is a large numbers of Italian (and maybe other near by sources of Olive wood) wood blanks being sold as BOW all over the world for quite some time, as also an increase number of new unscrupulous BOW sellers coming out of the wood works like mushrooms in winter time, as the imported wood is given them the opportunity to make a quick buck out of the scam...!

Quoting a phrase from your own post above that, _"Just because some guy on IAP says it comes from Italy, doesn't make it so"_  "that guy" is basically blowing the whistle and say that, people are paying good money for a product that they are buying and accepting the hight value, believing that the Olive wood they are buying come from ancient trees planted in Bethlehem, the Holy Land.  I'm simply alerting them that they should as k some questions of the wood authenticity to their suppliers and hopping that those suppliers are asking some question to they suppliers also in Israel and make sure that they know that a lot of other people started to put 2 and 2 together and things just don't add up...!  

I really would like to see how the Israeli suppliers would react if they were told by our BOW suppliers that 1 or 2 random blanks from the order, will be sent to an official lab for testing the identification origin of the trees they come from...!

*Fact,* there is a large number of wood sold as BOW that is not BOW...!

*Fact,* this issue will be of interest to a lot of people...!

*Fact,* Those that have no interest in these matters, are welcome to ignore this thread and spend their time reading countless other subjects that IAP has to offer every day...!

*Fact,* why is that, that the first sign shown that the issue is making some people nervous, is expressed by using the "bashing a dead horse" / beaten to death" symbolic expressions, always coming from people with a high commercial interest which applies to suppliers of such product...??? 

I which that was some other way to expose this scam, without affecting some people, I have no personal satisfaction in seeing people upset, ripped-of or taken as a fool.  I just want people to have enough information on this issue, so that they can make their own conclusions based on the facts that some will always regard as irrelevant and/or waste of time...!

In the Court of Law, ignorance is no excuse, and I believe this to be very truth...!

I hope that I'm given the opportunity to continue putting my claim across, without being offended, disrespected and or ear tag marked for what I stand for.  I will try to continue to see the replies as other peoples opinions which they have the right of/to, so I would appreciate if those wanting to contribute in this discussion, to do so respectfully...! 

Thank you!

Cheers
George


----------



## robutacion

ed4copies said:


> I've been there and I know other IAP members have as well.  I'm tellin' ya', it all can't be genuine BOW/JOW.
> 
> Chip,
> 
> How much is "it all"??
> 
> What is the amount imported and sold in the USA per year?
> 
> I just received several hundred blanks--less than 2 cubic feet.  *Or, relating it to the many trees in my yard, one 6" apple "arm" cut off or broken off in a wind storm is about 10-15 feet long.  This is about 9.5 cubic feet.  I lose dozens every year.  So how much are we really using??*
> 
> Did my 600 blanks make a dent??  I doubt it.  But how many sources in the USA order 600 per year??  I'm guessing at most a dozen.
> 
> Just a little food for thought.  Recognize we are ALL guessing here--what I know for certain is the box came from Israel---seems likely the wood IN the box also came from Israel.
> 
> Yes, I COULD be wrong.  I consider it more likely that the amount of wood we are using is MUCH SMALLER than you all are Guessing.
> 
> How many BOW pens have been posted this year??  That would be a starting point.




Hi Ed,

I was writing a specific answer to your last post but then I realise that I would be jumping over what I'm putting together for the continuation of my attempt to educated some people about the Olive trees, which I already started.  The answer to your comment highlight above will be answered soon.

On the other hand, and from what I read you say before, and correct me if I got it wrong, you are not much of a timber guy, or have had much experience with wood apart from maybe cutting a few branches and buying pen wood blanks blanks...???:wink::biggrin:  No offend intended if this is the case, after all not everyone has the same life experiences and tendencies...!:biggrin: but your observation on the example you gave as a wood yield from a branch that size, really demonstrates that you have absolutely no knowledge about the Olive Tree characteristics, things that distinguish ojne wood species from the others...!:wink:

You may game something from listening to what I say about Olive wood and many other wood species I have had and still work with...!:wink: If you are becoming one of our members preferred supplier, helping you will help them...!

So stay tune..!

Cheers
George


----------



## robutacion

ldb2000 said:


> Well which is it , The Truth or Not necessary . I for one would like to know !!! I don't like selling something that I can't feel 100% sure of the authenticity of the claims . I'm hoping that George has some facts to back up his claims , although through logic I must say that if all the BOW I see being sold came from trees planted in the Holy land , there wouldn't be any trees left to prune .



Butch,

Thank you for having the decency to refer to me by my real/personal name, and while I agree the "frog" joke was directed to me, and of bad taste, I prefer to ignore such comments.

Some people expects/wants me to provide a sort of proof that themselves could never offer, is no different for me to prove that my claim is true, than would be for them to prove that I'm not...! In fact, a lot of the reasons I have been giving to assist people to start making questions, have been either ignored and some are not able to read between the lines, either way, these some facts and information will continued to be stated and demonstrated until those interested get the full message.

Don't worry about me not having facts (evidence) to back up my claim, I will respect requests made to keep that information private as I have for a few years now but, if I'm put in a situation that I have the legally share it, or my back end will get burnt, at that moment I will go down but, I will take a hell of many others with me, that's a promise...!:wink::biggrin:

If someone think that I'm telling a story or that I imagined, dreamed of it, and I'm spending my time and energy just for the fun of it, think twice, you don't know me at all...!

Cheers
George


----------



## workinforwood

I think your passion is a little too heavy George, and please don't see it as a personal attack of any kind.  I completely agree about the entire BOW situation, But I also think it's not the type of thing to get overly worked up about.  There are far more stressing issues in the world that a person could focus on changing, rather than a piece of wood that may or may not be what it is advertised.  In the case of the BOW, it will always come down to the customers to decide what they believe and none of us will be able to change that belief.


----------



## DCBluesman

I appreciate the willingness of each member to share their knowledge and experience.  It certainly helps me make a better informed decision. (My OW comes from trees...if it really is BOW or JOW or ROW or COW or AOW of GWOW...)


----------



## rjwolfe3

The simple truth of the matter is that I can't prove that all BOW comes from Bethlehem and you can't prove that it doesn't. It goes back to trusting our suppliers. I only buy from people that I trust and until you can prove that the people I buy from are ripping me off, I will believe them at face value. I agree that their are people out there ripping people off with fake BOW especially on Ebay. 

However for you to make a blanket statement that all or most BOW comes from Italy and still not backing it up is wrong in my opinion. I did not take the time to read every word you posted because most of it was way too wordy for me but I still just haven't seen this proof that you speak of. I would just like to see your proof in English without all of the mumbo jumbo to read through. I mean no disrespect but get to point of all this without going around in circles please.


----------



## TellicoTurning

I've read through 98% of the posts in this thread...  Olive trees are in abundance all around the Mediterranean, as well as California, Australia and I'm sure many other places.  

I understand George's argument that things move around the world at an amazing volume and are touted as being from the last country to sell the items as a product of that country.  Rightly or wrongly, this is a fact of life.  I spent 40 years in the international traffic and transportation industry and part of my job was to coordinate shipments from country A to country B then from country B to countries C, D, E, F, and on to infinitude...  by most countries laws, especially the U.S., if a product is produced in country A and then travels to country B for repackaging to country C, then the documentation is supposed to read country of origin is country A.... reality is, either through ignorance or deceit, often the country of origin will read Country B.  

I've included a chart from Wikipedia (which I know to be only partially reliable...) that shows the world olive production...these 11 countries  account for 95% of the world production of Olives... therefore by a simplistic reasoning, 95% of the world's olive wood.... Israel only figures as one country in the remaining 5%.

*in the end, does it really matter..*. there  will be a few that think it has some religious significance, but I  believe most just like the wood.   I sell olive wood pens, game calls, bottle stoppers and if I can get it large enough, I'll do pepper mills - although since you can smell the olive odor in the raw wood, it might influence the pepper corns, so will have to experiment with that... but I only sell it as olive wood.  I throw the COA's away as I don't believe them.  I don't believe my sales have been affected... most people that buy the  olive woods do so because they like the beauty of the woods...


----------



## Jgrden

Way to go Padre. Good question.


----------



## rjwolfe3

The only reason it matters to me comes down to price. The rest I could care less about. I can buy olivewood all day long at around a $1 or so but BOW/JOW is somewhere around $5. That is quite a difference if the wood is really not what it says it is. That is my only reason for following this whole thread.


----------



## DCBluesman

Some of you may find post 7 in this thread interesting.  Bill Jacobs is a good friend of many on this site.  I've seen pictures of his trip to Bethlehem and his visit with the supplier.  I was also the recipient of some of the wood, directly from Bill. 

BTW, I don't offer this as proof of anything, but simply first hand evidence from a member and friend.


----------



## penhead

I agree totally and in whole with what DCBluesman has said in post#91...
I have dealt with Diane and Ghasen for a number of years, and though I have never personally met them or traveled to Israel, but I have trust in what they say.


----------



## robutacion

DCBluesman said:


> Some of you may find post 7 in this thread interesting.  Bill Jacobs is a good friend of many on this site.  I've seen pictures of his trip to Bethlehem and his visit with the supplier.  I was also the recipient of some of the wood, directly from Bill.
> 
> BTW, I don't offer this as proof of anything, but simply first hand evidence from a member and friend.



Hi DCBluesman,

I appreciate your information and is good to know that some of those buying/using true BOW have experienced a trip to such tribulated part of the world, and meet with one of the most known suppliers of Olive wood..! 

However, my claim is;
I've got evidence from the source where the wood was purchased from that, Italian Olive wood has been bought by people from Israel buy the container full (22' containers) for years, and sold as BOW/JOW and possibly other, all over the world, particularly as BOW as it is the most known/sourced and provides the most value/return/profit...!

Now, who is selling and who is buying it, is near impossible for me to tell and is not the point, the point is, is everyone (suppliers and buyers) getting what they are paying for...??? no, not everyone, "someone" is getting a raw deal and they know nothing about it.  Do they care...??? some won't, some do, big time...!

Who is buying from whom...??? I don't really care nor I want to know, or helps to clear the situation up.  If you don't care, fine, no problem but if you thing and believe that The Holy Land could not possible produce what was has been sold around the world as BOW, particularly from trimmings/pruning's, as I have demonstrated many times before and I will do it again here soon, then ask yourself, where is all this Olive wood is coming from...???

I'm simply "alerting/letting you know/advise" that this has been going on for some years, and is only increasing...! Who is involved...??? I don't know, I'm not the one buying this product but if you do, and if you don't thing that you should be taken as a fool, ask questions, take some particular steps to make sure you get the "real" deal, after all it would be difficult to give the excuse that you didn't know, from now on...!

I have absolutely nothing against Diane and Ghasen, and I would be pretty p!$$d-off if I was a "genuine" and well established BOW distributor and would see/find out, everyone else selling every piece of Olive wood they can get their hands on as BOW...! even possible copying/printing his original certificates to sell with the false BOW.

I'm not the one that has to prove their BOW is authentic, "they" (all Israeli suppliers) are...! and for that, is only one thing that can clear the situation or at least make those that are selling false BOW, to think twice before they decided to continue, would be, to have some samples tested for originality/authenticity, not by any Israeli supplier but by some of the biggest importers of this product into their recipient countries, making sure that they would know that would be a condition of purchase/secure the deal...!

It is very tempting to get a product that resembles the original, for less money, isn't it...??? after all they are all Olive wood from the Olive Tree (the symbol of Peace) and a wood that "most" of us like and enjoy working with, some of them are even of great quality and grain BUT, they are not all BOW aren't they...???

Please, don't tell me/us if you are a BOW supplier or not, it doesn't help me or anyone else in this case.  You would help yourself much better by removing any doubts you may have by having a couple of your blanks tested...!

There are great benefits with the clarification of this issue, some others may thing not, particularly if "they" are directly or indirectly involve, is not for me to decide, I've told you what I know and believe...!:wink::biggrin:

Cheers
George


----------



## sbell111

robutacion said:


> Now, who is selling and who is buying it, is near impossible for me to tell and is not the point, the point is, is everyone (suppliers and buyers) getting what they are paying for...??? no, not everyone, *"someone" is getting a raw deal and they know nothing about it.  Do they care...??? some won't, some do, big time...!*


The bolded bit doesn't make sense, to me.  You see, if a person doesn't know about the problem, how could they care about it?

Last year, I bought a couple hundred BOW blanks.  The guy that I made my deal with lived in Israel.  My payment was wired to his bank in Israel.  My blanks were shipped from Israel.  I have no problem telling my customers that the pens that I sell them are made from BOW.  Why wouldn't I?  Because you say so?  I'm afraid that I'm going to need alot more than that to call my supplier a liar.


----------



## rjwolfe3

+1!



sbell111 said:


> robutacion said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now, who is selling and who is buying it, is near impossible for me to tell and is not the point, the point is, is everyone (suppliers and buyers) getting what they are paying for...??? no, not everyone, *"someone" is getting a raw deal and they know nothing about it.  Do they care...??? some won't, some do, big time...!*
> 
> 
> 
> The bolded bit doesn't make sense, to me.  You see, if a person doesn't know about the problem, how could they care about it?
> 
> Last year, I bought a couple hundred BOW blanks.  The guy that I made my deal with lived in Israel.  My payment was wired to his bank in Israel.  My blanks were shipped from Israel.  I have no problem telling my customers that the pens that I sell them are made from BOW.  Why wouldn't I?  Because you say so?  I'm afraid that I'm going to need alot more than that to *call my supplier a liar.*
Click to expand...


----------



## penhead

"...I'm not the one that has to prove their BOW is authentic, "they" (all Israeli suppliers) are...! and..."

Actually, you are the one who needs to prove it. You have said repeatedly, over and over, that you have proof...so, in my poker playing days, it was stated:

"..Put up or shut up..."


----------



## robutacion

sbell111 said:


> robutacion said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now, who is selling and who is buying it, is near impossible for me to tell and is not the point, the point is, is everyone (suppliers and buyers) getting what they are paying for...??? no, not everyone, *"someone" is getting a raw deal and they know nothing about it.  Do they care...??? some won't, some do, big time...!*
> 
> 
> 
> The bolded bit doesn't make sense, to me.  You see, if a person doesn't know about the problem, how could they care about it?
> 
> Last year, I bought a couple hundred BOW blanks.  The guy that I made my deal with lived in Israel.  My payment was wired to his bank in Israel.  My blanks were shipped from Israel.  I have no problem telling my customers that the pens that I sell them are made from BOW.  Why wouldn't I?  Because you say so?  I'm afraid that I'm going to need alot more than that to call my supplier a liar.
Click to expand...


Hi sbell,

OK, lets see what the "bolded bit" means...!

You see, some could have claimed that they really din't know about the scam, BUT, I have been telling loud enough for some time that, I have proof that Italian Olive wood has been exported to Israel to be sold as BOW...! now, if those same people express the opinion as not to care about it, then they have no problems BUT if they do care, and want to make absolutely sure that what they are getting is what it should be, speak to your suppliers and express your concerns (there is, if this bother you...!), you don't have to call anyone a liar nor I'm asking you to, I'm simply advising people that the scam is increasing with a presence of a lot of new "BOW" sellers out there...! 

If this is a new concern to you, because you didn't know, you now do, and if you are one of many that has had this suspicion a long time ago (you only have to look at the number of threads and people involved in this discussion in the pass, here and elsewhere...!), is maybe time to get your regular/trusted/friend Israeli BOW/JOW supplier to do a better job at proving the authenticity of their Olive wood.

If I was a Israeli BOW/JOW established, original, regulated and truthful/honest supplier, aware of the false Bow being sold all around me, compromising my own business and integrity, and being "bombarded" with questions on my product authenticity, myself becoming aware that is a lot of people out there that no longer believe that most of the BOW now on sale everywhere is really authentic, I would be the first one to change whatever needed to be changed to provide that extra evidence that what I'm selling is the real deal...!

This is what I would do if I was a genuine BOW/JOW Israeli supplier, and if I was a importer of this product, I would be asking for that extra security/proof of the Olive wood origin, and I would certainly have at least one sample sent to a lab for testing and use that same results certificate to cover my @$$ and give to all my customers the piece of mind they deserve.  If my reputation was on the line, this is what I would do, before I would wait to get additional proof or a change in the way the product is presented to the public as authentic. 

You do that and I will guarantee that those that care about this whole issue, will be looking for your business, before anyone else's...!:wink:

BTW, we all know that the Olive wood is sold from Israel so, bank accounts, addresses and shipping are all from there, that was never a doubt or the issue...!

Unfortunately, I don't have the power (but someone may...!) to request documentation from the Italian or Israeli Customs to find out about shipments (22' containers) of Olive wood "to" and "from". 
Pics of the wood being processed for these shipments and written evidence from the Olive wood mill owner in Italy that the wood is going to Israel purchased by a Israeli name that maybe or maybe not has been heard before, is not going to resolve the issue.  What it means is that, if there was a doubt that this could be happening, just because, and many of us agree with the fact that, Israel particularly Bethlehem, simply doesn't have any more enough Olive trees to provide the world with enough BOW wood from its trimmings/prunings.

Now, and like anything else in life, there is the right way and the wrong way to go about it, which one is the most effective...??? I let you make your own judgment, I have made mine...!:wink::biggrin: 

Cheers
George


----------



## robutacion

penhead said:


> "...I'm not the one that has to prove their BOW is authentic, "they" (all Israeli suppliers) are...! and..."
> 
> Actually, you are the one who needs to prove it. You have said repeatedly, over and over, that you have proof...so, in my poker playing days, it was stated:
> 
> "..Put up or shut up..."



Hi penhead,

I respect your opinion BUT, I couldn't possible agree with you for obvious reasons...! 

Well, in my poker playing days, if someone would give me a good deck of cards, that wouldn't make me a winner, in fact, is how you would use them, that would get you the results, right...??? well..., I'm giving you and everyone else a good deck of cards (information!), how good or not you are with it/them, or how you are going to use it/them is all up to you, huh...???:wink::biggrin:

The *"..Put up or shut up..."* thing, isn't really a good example to use, in fact I have seen that used a lot when, someone has something to hide, and want everyone to keep it quite...! I'm certain that you meant something else, reason why I thing that was probably not the best thing to say/write...!, we all make mistakes sometimes, huh...:wink::biggrin:

Cheers
George


----------



## PenMan1

My lawyers can beat up your lawyers....


----------



## robutacion

Hi everyone,

I would like to continue with my "Olive wood story" and I will be in the position to demonstrate how little usable wood is in trimmings by using pictures that I had prepared for this same purpose a few years back.  Unfortunately, the folder where these pics were stored were all lost about 6 months ago when I lost approx 6.000 pictures from a major failure in one of my PC hard-drives.  I had some backed up and that's what I've been looking at but, I reckon after the amount of looking I've done on my backup, they were one lot of many lost forever...!

Fortunately, I have plenty of Olive wood to do it all again, is just taking me a little longer than I would like but, don't worry, is almost all done again...!:biggrin:

Cheers
George


----------



## DurocShark

This thread has started slipping into arguing over semantics, a typical "Internet Fight". 

George, thank you for raising the issue. I'm afraid that much of this debate is happening in a vacuum. We don't have any way for us as pen makers to test the wood. And even if we did, what would we compare it to? Until we can have a piece of wood we're certain is from Israel to test alongside, it would be inconclusive. And even then...

What do we do to confirm the origin of the wood? How can we do anything other than trust the proofs we *do* have: Assurances of the supplier, customs forms, etc. 

I'd like to see this thread grow into a discussion of those ways to determine proof, not uneducated guesses.


----------



## rjwolfe3

I'm still waiting to see any kind of proof period!


----------



## penhead

Nope..what i said pretty much sums up the way that i personally feel about your hot air conspiracy theory...the fact that you have posted many many times in this thread alone that 'you have proof'...the fact that whenever someone won't agree to buy into your conspiracy theory you start putting them down and making excuses why 'they don't really understand..or 'that's not what you really mean'....that you will be showing us all proof 'very soon'...

...with the amount of money that would be involved if such a conspiracy theory were true, then you don't need proof (I say that because now it seems your proof has vanished in the haze from your HDD)...call any of the big news media...let them investigate...I am betting there are a 'lot' of investigative reporters out there that would jump at the chance to look into something like that.

And the worse part is, I am on the thin line of whether to actually believe you or not..I can almost envision some unscrupilous entity buying a container of OW, moving it ground transportation across Italy to the coast, putting it on a ship in a container, shipping it who knows how many miles across the water, takiing the container off the ship and ground transporting it all the way to Bethlehem, just to take the time to cut it up into penblanks, and then ship those blanks all the way back to the USA...I am sure there must be profit in there..???if you could produce a shred of undeniable evidence that such a thing was happening it sure would be more convincing, instead of just posting over and over that you have proof and want everyone to believe you. 



robutacion said:


> penhead said:
> 
> 
> 
> "...I'm not the one that has to prove their BOW is authentic, "they" (all Israeli suppliers) are...! and..."
> 
> Actually, you are the one who needs to prove it. You have said repeatedly, over and over, that you have proof...so, in my poker playing days, it was stated:
> 
> "..Put up or shut up..."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hi penhead,
> 
> I respect your opinion BUT, I couldn't possible agree with you for obvious reasons...!
> 
> Well, in my poker playing days, if someone would give me a good deck of cards, that wouldn't make me a winner, in fact, is how you would use them, that would get you the results, right...??? well..., I'm giving you and everyone else a good deck of cards (information!), how good or not you are with it/them, or how you are going to use it/them is all up to you, huh...???:wink::biggrin:
> 
> The *"..Put up or shut up..."* thing, isn't really a good example to use, in fact I have seen that used a lot when, someone has something to hide, and want everyone to keep it quite...! I'm certain that you meant something else, reason why I thing that was probably not the best thing to say/write...!, we all make mistakes sometimes, huh...:wink::biggrin:
> 
> Cheers
> George
Click to expand...


----------



## robutacion

PenMan1 said:


> My lawyers can beat up your lawyers....



Now, what purpose does your comment serve...??? and why, did you had the need to make it...???

I'm trying to have a "civilised" conversation here, those things don't help much...!

Cheers
George


----------



## devowoodworking

robutacion said:


> PenMan1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> My lawyers can beat up your lawyers....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now, what purpose does your comment serve...???
> 
> Cheers
> George
Click to expand...

 
I thought it was funny! :biggrin:


----------



## dexter0606

> Unfortunately, the folder where these pics were stored were all lost about 6 months ago


 
Convenient :wink:
Perhaps a conspiracy by the BOW suppliers!!!


----------



## robutacion

DurocShark said:


> This thread has started slipping into arguing over semantics, a typical "Internet Fight".
> 
> George, thank you for raising the issue. I'm afraid that much of this debate is happening in a vacuum. We don't have any way for us as pen makers to test the wood. And even if we did, what would we compare it to? Until we can have a piece of wood we're certain is from Israel to test alongside, it would be inconclusive. And even then...
> 
> What do we do to confirm the origin of the wood? How can we do anything other than trust the proofs we *do* have: Assurances of the supplier, customs forms, etc.
> 
> I'd like to see this thread grow into a discussion of those ways to determine proof, not uneducated guesses.




Hi DurocShark,

I wish that I could reply to all these posts in a easier way and not having to quote each individual post, to reach the right person whit my answer...! A little more work but its fine...!:biggrin:

Yes you're right, semantics seem to be the tool of choice when someone hasn't much to say...! I certainly hope that this thread is not going to turn into such fight, I would prefer to believe that people here have the decency to void such low representation of what I believe IAP is not...! It may have been requiring some extra attention from our moderator(s), that could only be expected due to such controversial issue.  Sorry Curtis...!

Off-course that, I wouldn't expect the average pen maker that buy a few BOW blanks to be the ones to send blanks to the Lab.  That wouldn't only be unnecessary as many people get their blanks from the same local supplier so would result in various blanks being tested from the same batch.

The test(s) I'm talking about could not possibly done by us, I've though that has been made clear, previously.  This tests are done everyday by and for people trying to identify a certain wood species.  Total wood identification is a difficult, time consuming and expensive procedure, I know when I sent my first wood sample for complete identification testing, and received the results and the bill...!  This time, the objective of the testing is exclusively to determine soil, nutrients, minerals, general conditions, etc., etc. where the tree that produced that sample could have come from.  This test would be further facilitated as the wood species is known and the geographic possibilities would be reduced/concentrated on only 2 origins/regions, both a world apart, not only in distance...! 

I particularly like your comment and suggestion made on your last paragraph,
_"I'd like to see this thread grow into a discussion of those *ways to determine proof*, not uneducated guesses"_

I would also like to know/hear what other people would like to see done to get the truth out,  and what other ways would be possible/achievable to determine the wood authenticity...! if you have a suggestion, please let is know.

My suggestion (sample test) has been explained with the most detail I can and for many people out there that have been involved with timbers identification by these means, will verify that, would be probably the simplest, quickest and economical answer to the problem...!:wink::biggrin:

*Ed*, you've got 600 blanks, you could lose a couple and take the first step...!:biggrin: Sorry mate, I've though of you as you just recently told us that you just got them, this doesn't really mean much and you have the right to do with them what you think is right but as an example if you would decide to remove any doubts from your head and possibly identical doubts from people that would like to buy these blanks from you, with that new, unique and extra guarantee that, what you have is the real thing (note that, I'm not saying that is not...!) the couple of hundred bucks or so, the test would cost,  the small cost added to each blank would, In my opinion, be a small price your customers would be more than willing to pay...!

Just my opinion...! 

Cheers
George


----------



## robutacion

dexter0606 said:


> Unfortunately, the folder where these pics were stored were all lost about 6 months ago
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Convenient :wink:
> Perhaps a conspiracy by the BOW suppliers!!!
Click to expand...


NO, NO, NO my friend...!, you got it all wrong, what I've lost were pictures from a demonstration that I done some years back (2006-7 I think...!) about the Olive tree pruning/trimming branches and the various cuts to demonstrate what comes out of them as usable timber for figured pen blanks, and how that figure/texture looks like...!.

I have not lost any of my claimed evidence, in fact, when I first made my claim at a certain location (2006-2007), I received a couple of anonymous threats to shut up or else...! so, and after being reported to the respective authorities, I made 2 CD's sealed and a letter went with them with instructions, send to 2 different "individuals", one interstate, the other in this state, both have nothing to do with timbers and no one knows who they are, they know what to do if something happens to me...!  So don't worry, all the claimed evidence is a live and well thank you very much.

Very sorry if I disappointed you...!:wink::biggrin:

Cheers
George


----------



## rjwolfe3

George,
I think you might want to start hiding, I heard a rumor that the BOW/JOW organization is looking for you and your evidence. I think they may try to silence you. A friend of a friend told me this, so it has to be true. You might want to post your evidence here so that if they silence you the truth will still be out there.





robutacion said:


> dexter0606 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unfortunately, the folder where these pics were stored were all lost about 6 months ago
> 
> 
> 
> Convenient :wink:
> Perhaps a conspiracy by the BOW suppliers!!!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> NO, NO, NO my friend...!, you got it all wrong, what I've lost were pictures from a demonstration that I done some years back (2006-7 I think...!) about the Olive tree pruning/trimming branches and the various cuts to demonstrate what comes out of them as usable timber for figured pen blanks, and how that figure/texture looks like...!.
> 
> I have not lost any of my claimed evidence, in fact, when I first made my claim at a certain location (2006-2007), I received a couple of anonymous threats to shut up or else...! so, and after being reported to the respective authorities, I made 2 CD's sealed and a letter went with them with instructions, send to 2 different "individuals", one interstate, the other in this state, both have nothing to do with timbers and no one knows who they are, they know what to do if something happens to me...!  So don't worry, all the claimed evidence is a live and well thank you very much.
> 
> Very sorry if I disappointed you...!:wink::biggrin:
> 
> Cheers
> George
Click to expand...


----------



## robutacion

workinforwood said:


> I think your passion is a little too heavy George, and please don't see it as a personal attack of any kind.  I completely agree about the entire BOW situation, But I also think it's not the type of thing to get overly worked up about.  There are far more stressing issues in the world that a person could focus on changing, rather than a piece of wood that may or may not be what it is advertised.  In the case of the BOW, it will always come down to the customers to decide what they believe and none of us will be able to change that belief.



Hi Jeff,

I apologise to only now reply to your post but, your comments were greatly appreciated and I could not ignore that..! thank you.

I also appreciate the fact that you feel that I'm a passionate person, this is the same passion that got me out of a wheel-chair once before and what allowed me to survive this far...!  I'm particular passionate about subjects that I know well, and things I believe in.

As much as some will hate it, my passion for things I involve myself with are often taken to extremes, this result in an interesting mixed results, does that don't like it and does that wouldn't do without, after all, we are what we are...!

If only could be possible to please everyone...!!! each one of us have a unique way to express ourselves, and I like self discipline and I'm very detailed in everything I do or say, and despite of some describing my writings as "mumbo jumbo", many have learn a great deal from it, for some time...!:wink:

You are also very right when you say that, there are many more stressing issues in the world that need desperate changing and focus on, I totally agree and while I'm powerless and unable to focus and change them all, is one that I can make a difference, reason why it has become so important to me...!

Yes, people only believe in what they want to believe, and why...??? well, that would be another very "interesting" subject to write many pages about but, some other time...!:wink::biggrin:

Cheers
George


----------



## penhead

You may not be able to please everyone, George, but I am betting you could please a huge percentage of people here, the one's that you are so passionate about helping, the people who have read pages and pages of your posts...if you really care about the people, and as you say "reason why it has become so important to me", if this issue is so vitally important to save the world from the faux BOW dealers...then give us some answers, give us something to work with here George, we want to believe...just give us a trivial piece of undeniable evidence..!




robutacion said:


> If only could be possible to please everyone...!!! each one of us have a unique way to express ourselves, and I like self discipline and I'm very detailed in everything I do or say, and despite of some describing my writings as "mumbo jumbo", many have learn a great deal from it, for some time...!:wink:
> 
> You are also very right when you say that, there are many more stressing issues in the world that need desperate changing and focus on, I totally agree and while I'm powerless and unable to focus and change them all, is one that I can make a difference, reason why it has become so important to me...!
> 
> Cheers
> George


----------



## robutacion

rjwolfe3 said:


> George,
> I think you might want to start hiding, I heard a rumor that the BOW/JOW organization is looking for you and your evidence. I think they may try to silence you. A friend of a friend told me this, so it has to be true. You might want to post your evidence here so that if they silence you the truth will still be out there.



I'm so glad that some of you can can make jokes out of serious matters, well if comedians can make jokes about the Queen, P'Ministers and who ever they wish, why not, this is a free world, huh...???:wink: 

I bet, all those people involved with the pen watch's issue, should be relieved that the attention went elsewhere, and that we have jokers and comedians to help along...!:biggrin:  What would we do without a laugh every so often...???:wink:arty:

PS: While I'm getting some work done on the series of pics I've lost about the trimming's issue, here is something that I probably shouldn't have been able to have accessed, I did so have a little read on some of what was said on this forum, http://www.woodworkforums.com/f69/importing-pen-blanks-overseas-92620/

Cheers
George


----------



## maxwell_smart007

This thread is already in danger of getting pushed over the line of good taste.  Conspiracy jokes and the like are not productive to the discussion - on the other hand, neither are accusations without evidence.  

If there's *solid proof* of wrongdoing or ethical impropriety from a vendor, then perhaps we should hear about it.  Otherwise, it's just a fight that will continue until said proof is offered. 

I'd just like to point out a few points in passing:  

Olive wood from Israel is more valuable as a wood commodity than as an olive-producing commodity.  Therefore, Israel's lack of olive-production does not prove that the olive tree does not exhist in numbers there.  

Second, there are olive trees in Israel, seemingly in abundance.  
http://travel.webshots.com/photo/2725864630077355298PBmwGS

Third: even the branches that would be pruned seem to be gnarled, indicating that they would, indeed, be figured.  The arid life of a tree in that part of the world likely makes the prunings more figured than in sunny, wet California.  

Finally, to roughly quote Tommy Boy - "I can get a good look at a Tbone by sticking my head up a cow's backside, but I'd rather take my butcher's word for it"...

I for one have never doubted that the wood I receive as 'genuine' is not genuine.  I have to trust the ethics and business practices of my vendors for that.


----------



## penhead

So your last post on that forum was to 'threaten' a large landowner and religious leader...threaten..and you wonder why you were banned there..??

I agree...this discussion should be dead/done/and over.





robutacion said:


> rjwolfe3 said:
> 
> 
> 
> George,
> I think you might want to start hiding, I heard a rumor that the BOW/JOW organization is looking for you and your evidence. I think they may try to silence you. A friend of a friend told me this, so it has to be true. You might want to post your evidence here so that if they silence you the truth will still be out there.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm so glad that some of you can can make jokes out of serious matters, well if comedians can make jokes about the Queen, P'Ministers and who ever they wish, why not, this is a free world, huh...???:wink:
> 
> I bet, all those people involved with the pen watch's issue, should be relieved that the attention went elsewhere, and that we have jokers and comedians to help along...!:biggrin:  What would we do without a laugh every so often...???:wink:arty:
> 
> PS: While I'm getting some work done on the series of pics I've lost about the trimming's issue, here is something that I probably shouldn't have been able to have accessed, I did so have a little read on some of what was said on this forum, http://www.woodworkforums.com/f69/importing-pen-blanks-overseas-92620/
> 
> Cheers
> George
Click to expand...


----------



## Padre

maxwell_smart007 said:


> This thread is already in danger of getting pushed over the line of good taste.  Conspiracy jokes and the like are not productive to the discussion - on the other hand, neither are accusations without evidence.
> 
> If there's *solid proof* of wrongdoing or ethical impropriety from a vendor, then perhaps we should hear about it.  Otherwise, it's just a fight that will continue until said proof is offered.
> 
> I'd just like to point out a few points in passing:
> 
> Olive wood from Israel is more valuable as a wood commodity than as an olive-producing commodity.  Therefore, Israel's lack of olive-production does not prove that the olive tree does not exhist in numbers there.
> 
> Second, there are olive trees in Israel, seemingly in abundance.
> http://travel.webshots.com/photo/2725864630077355298PBmwGS
> 
> Third: even the branches that would be pruned seem to be gnarled, indicating that they would, indeed, be figured.  The arid life of a tree in that part of the world likely makes the prunings more figured than in sunny, wet California.
> 
> Finally, to roughly quote Tommy Boy - "I can get a good look at a Tbone by sticking my head up a cow's backside, but I'd rather take my butcher's word for it"...
> 
> I for one have never doubted that the wood I receive as 'genuine' is not genuine.  I have to trust the ethics and business practices of my vendors for that.



Yes, there are olive trees in Israel, especially in the Galilee area, which that picture was taken from.  Those orchards are beautiful, peaceful and full of great big olive trees.  I have seen them.

The first picture I have attached is of the style of orchards in the Bethlehem region.  The second is some of the olive trees outside Jerusalem.

I truly believe that is this thread has been polarized so far that further dicussion isn't fruitful.  No pun intended.   There is not a definitive answer either way.  All we can do is make an educated decision.  Should we trust our vendors?  Yes, until *proven* otherwise.  

No one can say that *ALL* BOW/JOW/NOW is from Bethlehem, Jerusalem or Nazareth.  Conversely, no one can say that *NO* BOW/JOW/NOW is really from Bethlehem, Jerusalem or Nazareth.

We step out in faith and trust.  That's all we can ask for.

T-bone steak from the inside?  ROTFL!!  :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:


----------



## arioux

maxwell_smart007 said:


> This thread is already in danger of getting pushed over the line of good taste.  Conspiracy jokes and the like are not productive to the discussion - on the other hand, neither are accusations without evidence.
> 
> .



Agree.  Out of topics post deleted and apologies to those that lost their time reading it.


----------



## robutacion

arioux said:


> maxwell_smart007 said:
> 
> 
> 
> This thread is already in danger of getting pushed over the line of good taste.  Conspiracy jokes and the like are not productive to the discussion - on the other hand, neither are accusations without evidence.
> 
> .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Agree.  Out of topics post deleted and apologies to those that lost their time reading it.
Click to expand...


I'm sorry if you and others feel that way, and that you feel that you wasted your precious time reading this long thread (well, I've told you from the very beginning that this was going to be a long one...!:wink however, I'm not finished yet, and I would suggest people to not start making final conclusions yet.

I have not yet provided some additional information to complement and justify my claim, you may want to have all the answers right know, I for starters don't have all the answers (do you...???), and I will determine what should be shared *on my own time*.  Rushing me, doesn't going to work, and until I'm satisfied that I provided all the information I want to share, be patient, bare with me a little longer, you "MAY" get what you want and maybe not...!

Is important to me to know what others think of the issue and how that may affect them, is important to give them sufficient time to digest all the information, agreeing or disagreeing is beyond the point and is totally expected.  I have no problems in doing my own "dirty laundry" BUT I refuse to do others...!:wink::biggrin:

I have already asked and explained why I needed a little extra time to continue with my "Olive wood story", I had work done that I needed here and I lost it (together with a lot more) as explained, I'm trying to reproduce some of the pics that I had and I'm having troubles with the weather.  I require to reach some of the small wood (branches from trimmings) I have stored in my open storage paddock, not far from home and need to drive to the Olive grove where the trees are to take some pics but we have had rain for days and damn cold, I'm not going to go out in the cold and rain and get even sicker than what I am already so, if you thing this is a excuse, is nothing I can do, after all you believe in what you want to believe, right...???

I will put it all here as soon as I can, knowing perfectly well that, won't make any difference to those that already made their mind about the issue, nevertheless it may make a different to many others, to help them to make theirs...!:wink:

In the mean time, be respectful, please...!:biggrin:

Cheers
George


----------



## leestoresund

I've enjoyed reading all 12 pages.

Now, how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?


----------



## sbell111

robutacion said:


> You see, some could have claimed that they really din't know about the scam, BUT, I have been telling loud enough for some time that, I* have proof that Italian Olive wood has been exported to Israel to be sold as BOW*...! now, if those same people express the opinion as not to care about it, then they have no problems BUT if they do care, and want to make absolutely sure that what they are getting is what it should be, speak to your suppliers and express your concerns (there is, if this bother you...!), *you don't have to call anyone a liar* nor I'm asking you to, I'm simply advising people that the scam is increasing with a presence of a lot of new "BOW" sellers out there...!
> 
> If this is a new concern to you, because you didn't know, you now do, and if you are one of many that has had this suspicion a long time ago (you only have to look at the number of threads and people involved in this discussion in the pass, here and elsewhere...!), is *maybe time to get your regular/trusted/friend Israeli BOW/JOW supplier to do a better job at proving the authenticity of their Olive wood*.


If I advertise an old Camaro as an authentic SS and you feel the need to ask me if I put the SS badging on to make a non-SS appear to be an SS, then you are calling me a liar.  I am simply unwilling to call my supplier a liar without you first providing proof that such lying actually exists.  Given that you have repeatedly stated that you have that very proof, let's see it.  If your proof convinces us that this type of fraud is rampant among BOW suppliers, I will consider asking my guy more questions as I am sure others will do also.


robutacion said:


> This is what I would do if I was a genuine BOW/JOW Israeli supplier, and if I was a importer of this product, I would be asking for that extra security/proof of the Olive wood origin, and I would certainly have at least one sample sent to a lab for testing and use that same results certificate to cover my @$$ and give to all my customers the piece of mind they deserve.  If my reputation was on the line, this is what I would do, before I would wait to get additional proof or a change in the way the product is presented to the public as authentic.


I am not convinced that such lab testing would be as conclusive as you think it would be.  Nor am I convinced that such a lab would be easily accessible to our suppliers.  Further, I don't know that our suppliers would be able to afford the testing that you recommend, even if it were conclusive for this use and available to them.


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## robutacion

leestoresund said:


> I've enjoyed reading all 12 pages.
> 
> Now, how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?



Thanks leestoresund, I'm glad to know that someone has enjoyed reading all these pages until now, more coming...!:wink::biggrin:

I don't think that I can help you with your questions but, I've been told that all angels in Haven only healthy stuff so they should all be skinny = don't take much room = fit a few extra in it (pin's head)...!:wink::biggrin:

No doubt that, between my "normal" long posts, others opinions a few goes at me and other things that aren't worth mentioning, a thread can quickly grow.

In fact, should be something about threads about this same issue, here, elsewhere, in the present and in the recent pass that, attracts always a very large number of viewers.  This thread is a week old and so far, we had 36 posters and 3.201 viewers, that makes it nearly 500 viewers every day...! 

I don't believe, all these many people would view/follow a thread/subject unless would mean something to them...! I can be wrong, that wouldn't be the first nor the last time...!:wink:

Still working on "things", I will get it done soon...!

Cheers
George


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## DurocShark

leestoresund said:


> I've enjoyed reading all 12 pages.
> 
> Now, how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?



As many as want to. Or 42, depending on your geek score. :wink:


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## robutacion

> If I advertise an old Camaro as an authentic SS and you feel the need to ask me if I put the SS badging on to make a non-SS appear to be an SS, then you are calling me a liar. I am simply unwilling to call my supplier a liar without you first providing proof that such lying actually exists. Given that you have repeatedly stated that you have that very proof, let's see it. If your proof convinces us that this type of fraud is rampant among BOW suppliers, I will consider asking my guy more questions as I am sure others will do also.



You are not the first one to come up this "personal assumption/line of though" that DOES NOT reflect what I've been saying and will continue to do.  I have never asked anyone to start to call "liars" to anyone including their suppliers only because I'm (and have been for a quite a while) making known publicly what I know and from what I have/was given (probably by mistake/not intend to be used as evidence as such) to support my believe and suspicions that Olive wood from Italy (and probably other European countries rich in Olive trees has been exported in 22' containers to Israel to be sold as BOW from Israel to the world...!

Now, what part of my claim, do you have problems with understanding...???

I have  been, am and I will soon provide some more information that supports my believes and, as I'm aware the believes of many others here and everywhere that, not all the BOW on sale is authentic nor it could be...!

I have also repeatedly said/advised strongly that those that buy BOW or want to buy it because of what it represents (what makes it authentic) to be aware that is a good possibility that what they have been/are/will be buying "could be" some of the false BOW (imported Olive wood) circulating everywhere.  I have also suggested that you make your suppliers aware that this is/could be a worry/concern to you and many others, to ask questions and make sure they check also their sources in a way that could dismiss clearly, the possibility that they are involved directly or indirectly with the scam. (I would use other word if I could find one other, that could describe/signify the same meaning...!).

Now, where did I ever suggested/asked you or anyone to start to call a "liar" to anyone...??? Putting words in my mouth doesn't work, even tough I understand and totally disagree why people has the necessity to do it to take things to the level they want and not to what was said/intended by me.   What part of this do you have problems in understanding...? 

I have also suggested (and I was hoping that others could come up with other possibilities) a simple and efficient way to get some "real" answers and maybe allow all of us to find out who is right or not and who's "BOW" blanks should be voided at all costs, if not totally refused, regardless of price offered.  This suggestion refers to the lab test that I have been repeatedly mentioning, and this test is not as difficult to obtain in any major centres of any country, as you may think.  When it comes to the test cost, sure will not be free but, how much does "ones" reputation and name worth...???

Has become obvious that, a sticker or a small piece of badly printed paper as a certificate of authenticity, is not good enough, has also become obvious that having the blanks received from Israel (money sent to a Israeli bank account, etc.,) doesn't dismiss the possibility that I could be right, doesn't it...??? 

We have had a few members here, and I know that the same would apply all over the world, that clearly indicated that this BOW issue doesn't mean much if anything at all to them, in fact some have also indicated that, they disregard/discard the pieces of paper (certificates and stickers) that come with the blanks and sell their pens (and other) as Olive wood, Holy wood (all Olive wood is Holly, regardless of its origin...), made from the "Tree of Peace wood", etc.  One of the things that really puzzle me is, why would anyone want to buy and pay a premium price product (Olive wood with a BOW tag) when, they can get equal and in most cases superior quality (figure) Olive wood from either local sources or from other locations at their disposal, for half or less of the price...???

And this brings me to that question that has been asked a few times before, does everyone know/are aware that BOW and Olive wood are the same thing...??? that good quality Olive wood can be sourced from so many other places, apart from Israel...??? are new people coming to the world of pen making/turning, being brain washed about this BOW issue, making them believe that if isn't BOW is not good enough...???

This BOW issue is a lot more "cloudy" for pen turners than to any other type of wood turning, particularly those that perform medium to large scale turned items.  They know that if they want Olive wood for their turnings that, the last place they would consider would be Olive wood from Israel, they are smart enough to know that, BOW is not an option for all possible obvious reasons.:wink:

It saddens me to see young generations and people of all ages starting this great art of wood turning, getting the wrong information for profitability and unscrupulous reasons, instead of providing the simple and real facts such as, Olive trees from all over the world are special, Olive wood provided by your local suppliers as local, deserves some respect and consideration also, in fact, that same local Olive wood will allow you to experience size creations items (pic attached) never possible with BOW/JOW or any other Olive wood from Israel...!

I have a great respect for the Olive trees is Israel, particularly the few left ancient ones which have survived a great deal of tribulations for centuries.  I have exactly the same respect and admiration for ancient Olive trees still in existence all over the world, younger trees have my most respect also, but they have a long way to go before they reach maturity and give me something to work with, very much as the old times where a aged person was fully respected by any younger person, age/maturity did mean something, then...!:frown: Those times are long gone, huh...???

I have been accused here, a few times of sounding like a "broken record", if this is the case and I admit it is, there are a few others that would certainly belong to the same "category", while I get asked the "same" questions I will continue to give the "same" answers...!:wink::biggrin:

PS: As many would agree, one of the bigger mistakes we all do is to "react" in the spur of the moment (I'm as guilty as most of you...!).  Things are said that shouldn't be, things are said that can not be taken back, things are said without proper evaluation and things are said for a reason, in the middle of all this, consider the things that you could have said if you either, have gave if a bit of a though or taken the time the digest/dissect the information. I'm deliberately taken my time, for a reason...! 

Try to apply those principals here, we all will a lot better served in the end...!:wink:

Cheers
George


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## rjwolfe3

Wow another book written with nothing being said. George, you would make an awesome politician! Normally I enjoy reading your long posts on other topics. I think you are a very smart person and I have learned a lot from you. But on this subject I just can't see your point. You keep speaking of some kind of evidence and that you will get to it eventually but the more you post the less I see. I am beginning to wonder if all of these posts on this topic are a way to get some attention and not a way to educate us on this topic. Like I said I respect your opinion on most things but this one you are driving me crazy on.


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## robutacion

rjwolfe3 said:


> Wow another book written with nothing being said. George, you would make an awesome politician! Normally I enjoy reading your long posts on other topics. I think you are a very smart person and I have learned a lot from you. But on this subject I just can't see your point. You keep speaking of some kind of evidence and that you will get to it eventually but the more you post the less I see. I am beginning to wonder if all of these posts on this topic are a way to get some attention and not a way to educate us on this topic. Like I said I respect your opinion on most things but this one you are driving me crazy on.



Jeezz Rob, you've got me surprised...!:wink:

I'm not sure how to answer mate, somewhere in there, is maybe a complement, if that is the case, thank you very much but, I shall use one of the OZ (Aussie) "old bush sayings" to express my thoughts and it goes like this..., "Ain't sure if I wanta kiss or punch ya...!" :wink::biggrin: 

Attention...??? not really, I run away from the spotlight as much as Devil runs from the Cross (and I'm not even religious...!) but, if I get caught in it for whatever reason, I've learnt to stand my head up and confront the bull by its horns...!:wink::biggrin:

Haven't you notice that, is very "strange" to see me posting (write) so much, without adding any pics...??? after all, wouldn't be robutacion's posts without being long and very colourful with pics, right...??? well, don't dispair, they are coming...!!!:wink:

PS: The "old bush saying" I used, is not intended to offend or defame Rob (rjwolfe3) or anyone else...!:wink:  

Cheers
George


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## sbell111

robutacion said:


> If I advertise an old Camaro as an authentic SS and you feel the need to ask me if I put the SS badging on to make a non-SS appear to be an SS, then you are calling me a liar. I am simply unwilling to call my supplier a liar without you first providing proof that such lying actually exists. Given that you have repeatedly stated that you have that very proof, let's see it. If your proof convinces us that this type of fraud is rampant among BOW suppliers, I will consider asking my guy more questions as I am sure others will do also.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> <snipped lots and lots of verbiage that had little or nothing to do with my prior post>
Click to expand...

Other than the fact that you quoted part of my post, I can find no evidence that you read any of it.

Instead, you wrote a long treatise which basically repested what you have already posted over and over.  Perhaps, you could go back and take a look at my post and actually reply to my points.

In case you don't feel like scrolling up and see the post again, try this:

On one hand, you suggest that we all go to our suppliers and insist on proof that the BOW that we purchased is actual BOW.  On the other hand, you take the position that we needn't accuse our suppliers of lying.  Do you not see that by insisting on further evidence (whatever that might be) we would be, in fact, calling our suppliers liars.
You state that you have proof of a widespread deception whereas olive wood is being shipped into Israel to be shipped out as BOW.  You have not shared any of this so-called evidence with us.  Therefore, you expect us to act on faith that some unknown guy on the internet is correct about this scam even though he refuses to provide any evidence.  How can we take this on faith in the face of the fact that the expenses incurred in such a con would likely negate most of the expected profits of same?  Why should we accuse our suppliers of lying if you are not willing to produce whatever evidence of the scam that you state that you have?
You argue that lab testing should be done by the sellers of BOW to prove that it is, indeed, BOW.  However, you don't consider the fact that such lab testing would likely be inconclusive, cost prohibitive, and not readily available to our suppliers.


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## robutacion

sbell111 said:


> robutacion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If I advertise an old Camaro as an authentic SS and you feel the need to ask me if I put the SS badging on to make a non-SS appear to be an SS, then you are calling me a liar. I am simply unwilling to call my supplier a liar without you first providing proof that such lying actually exists. Given that you have repeatedly stated that you have that very proof, let's see it. If your proof convinces us that this type of fraud is rampant among BOW suppliers, I will consider asking my guy more questions as I am sure others will do also.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> <snipped lots and lots of verbiage that had little or nothing to do with my prior post>
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Other than the fact that you quoted part of my post, I can find no evidence that you read any of it.
> 
> Instead, you wrote a long treatise which basically repested what you have already posted over and over.  Perhaps, you could go back and take a look at my post and actually reply to my points.
> 
> *Yes Sir, and here I am responding directly to you or should I say in a way hopefully you understand, as I have already answer those question a few times before. With all due respect, you may be the one that need to read my posts with a little more care to actually read and interpret what I'm saying but, in any case and to be respectful to your wish/request, the following are my anwers...!*
> 
> In case you don't feel like scrolling up and see the post again, try this:
> 
> On one hand, you suggest that we all go to our suppliers and insist on proof that the BOW that we purchased is actual BOW.  On the other hand, you take the position that we needn't accuse our suppliers of lying.  Do you not see that by insisting on further evidence (whatever that might be) we would be, in fact, calling our suppliers liars.
> 
> *No I don't see, nor I agree for a second, with your philosophy.  There are many ways to approach your supplier in this matter, starting calling him/her a liar, doesn't serve anyone's purpose, at least until your supplier has the chance/opportunity to access the situation and take the steps he/she feel appropriate.  If you have concerns that I may be right and what I'm saying and shortly "demonstrated" in a more colourful way, makes real sense then, your approach/speaking to your supplier should be done with the benefit of the doubt.  Someone is involved, that's no question, who...??? is not for me to decided or to find out, but those buying the product with the believe that they are getting the authentic product.  If you supplier has nothing to hide, then he/she has nothing to be concerned about and agreeing or not with my claim, they should do whatever is necessary to put them in the clear, and provide the extra assurance that their product is authentic, after all we all agree what is in place at the moment is no longer satisfactory, according to opinions referred here by BOW buyers...!*
> 
> 
> You state that you have proof of a widespread deception whereas olive wood is being shipped into Israel to be shipped out as BOW.  You have not shared any of this so-called evidence with us.  Therefore, you expect us to act on faith that some unknown guy on the internet is correct about this scam even though he refuses to provide any evidence.  How can we take this on faith in the face of the fact that the expenses incurred in such a con would likely negate most of the expected profits of same?  Why should we accuse our suppliers of lying if you are not willing to produce whatever evidence of the scam that you state that you have?
> 
> *My claim is composed of various facts, one of which, is the evidence I was given/provided/passed-on that, Olive wood from Italy has been processed and bought by Israeli persons in a volume of 20' containers and shipped to Israel at regular bases...! The other aspects/parts of my claim will be shared very soon, same have been already but, I will concentrate (on my next "demonstration/illustration") all then to make easier to follow.
> My intentions are to "alert" THOSE INTERESTED that, the situation has been well hidden for some time but recently the influx of BOW sellers has increased in such way that, will make a lot easier to demonstrate that Israel can not possibly supply such volume of authentic BOW/JOW, etc...! to the world.
> When it comes to the profits, it varies but the last calculations made, 1 cubic meter of already cut pens blanks from this Italian supplier, would cost approx. 2.300 Euros (the bigger the size the lower the price per cubic meter or Quintals as they call it), a container fits at least 24x1 cubic meter pallets, (1 pallet would contain approx. 2.100 pen blanks) the container use cost is about 1.500 Euros, fumigation is not require as the wood is clean (for logs it would be required), + some other costs but it worked out at about USD$2 per blank landed in Israel approx. How much do you pay for them...???*:wink:
> 
> You argue that lab testing should be done by the sellers of BOW to prove that it is, indeed, BOW.  However, you don't consider the fact that such lab testing would likely be inconclusive, cost prohibitive, and not readily available to our suppliers.
> 
> *How many times have you had such type testes done/performed...???
> Due to my search for anything growing locally, I have found species that are of interest to a lot of other people, including biologists and wood collectors, I have been providing a considerable number of "official" wood samples (cut to a specific size) of these less common wood species, to some of theses people that in turn have them tested in specialized labs for this nature tests.  All the search, study and communications exchanged with these biologists and wood collectors, I've learn a considerable amount of information, and how things are done in these tests.  Some of those tests are subsidized by Government or Universities if this is a case study to their students, other are paid by private people, including some of the more serious wood collectors.  In between all the wood samples others requested and some that I needed identification myself, were shared (costs) between those interested, only once I went on my own with a sample that of a unknown tree species and nothing else to assist with the tests, and that cost me a very "hurtful" amount of money for someone that never had much of it...!  The BOW test is a lot simpler as the tree species is known and only one location (soils, minerals, etc.,) that the lab people have to concentrate on, and that is Israel conditions, just by being proved that it could not have come from a olive tree growing there, would be sufficient, right...???.  It would make it a lot simpler, quicker and cheaper to have a soil sample from Bethlehem and that wouldn't be that difficult to acquire from the Israeli sources, huh...???
> I've sent many wood samples thousands of miles away to be tested, not much of a difficult thing if you spend the time to search, study and enquire about it...!*
Click to expand...


*Are these going to be enough/sufficient answers to you..??? I will doubt, as I will doubt that regardless of what I say and or give you, will never be sufficient.  You (and others) may want me to name your supplier's name (who ever that is) as one of those involved, I have repeatedly said that I don't know nor I want to know who your and others suppliers are, nor is the reason why I'm maintaining my claim as a fact.  Some of you will never accept it, even if I would be to mention names, the very first thing that I would be asked for, would be the "integrity/validity/authenticity" of my documents and so on, so on, so on...!

Make your own mind and decisions, based on many other facts, the sale of Olive wood to Israel is only one of them...!

Yours respectfully,
George V.*


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## spnemo

robutacion said:


> * it worked out at about USD$2 per blank landed in Israel approx. How much do you pay for them...???*:wink:


 
I paid $2.10 per blank landed in the US.  That tells me that my wood probably originated in Israel.


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## snyiper

Well my take on everything is, talk to your suppliers of BOW and ask them if indeed that is the product they are selling. This is not to call them liars but mearly ask if they indeed in good concience are certain that is what it is. Now testing that would be dependent on the supplier and his/her credibility. I myself If I were a reseller would test some then go from there. I could either rip the head off and expose my supplier if he were wrong or sell with confidence and provide proof of the real deal. 
It just seems to me the sheer number of availabile BOW blanks would raise suspicion but that is just me besides anyone can print a paper saying it is authentic. I think George has some very valid points but by the same token the origin to me is non important at this time I just love the wood and its smell.


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## phillywood

I think you guys just have too much patient reading all this book writings. Whethere you prove the point or not does it make any different for your customers? they buy the beauty of your pen and the art wen into making it. I f the issue of he religious part of BOW was the point for them to buy they would have bought it form a christian religious suppliers like booka and other things they sell.
God knows what else we buy that is not true, so this is another one or may not be. 
That's my $.02.


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## robutacion

*The Olive wood story...! part 2*

Right people, the time has come to get the show on the road...!

I apologise for those with a genuine interest in the truth, for the slightly delay in providing the second part of the "Olive wood story..." (2).  I have repeatable requested some extra time as I only realised that my first and original "Presentation" complete files, on this very same issue were lost from a unexpected major failure in one of my main computer hard-drives, a few months ago.  I actually only realise that this large folder was gone after I started looking for it, at the beginning of this thread.

While some though that was a joke or a convenient way to get out of the "heat", I was in fact at loss to me with nearly 4 weeks of work gone...!  This Presentation is not as complex as my previous one, that was made to be published but "they" decided not to publish it and nor pay me for my work but, that's another story...!  ( A good sign of the powers "people in some places" and money behind the whole thing...!)

Anyway, I've spent most of the week searching my pics folders (many thousands of pics) for replacement pics and I endup finding some of the originals, others taken on other times and some new ones that I have to prepare for this Demonstration/Presentation.

I attempted to put it all in a slide-show type display but the maximum times allowed between pics was still too fast for pics with large legends so I decided to use my Photobucket account to create a dedicated Album for this Presentation, containing 72 pictures...!

The only thing you have to do to see it, is start from Picture #1 and click on its thumbnail added to this post (bellow).  After opening/taken to my Photobucket Album, you simple click next when you are done with the pic showing, and so forth...! Be aware that 98% of the pics are mine, and all have a legend with some text written on it.  Have a good read but have particularly a good look, is important that you can connect what you are seeing with what I'm saying, this allow you to have a better understanding of thoughts, experience and message.

Click "next" every time you want to go to the next pic, they are all numbered and in numerical order, their order as significance for the flow of the message I'm trying to share.  Believe it, don't believe it, is all up to you, if what I'm sharing isn't enough and clear enough, nothing will...!

Why would I want to put myself constantly in this "difficult" situation some may ask, is evident that I have some unfinished business with this issue and unless a see some changes to correct my claim, I will continue to make this same claim over and over again.  In a perfect world, people would be tanking me for exposing such scam, and to put myself in front of the "bull" all the time, instead I have made more enemies than what I would like but, in the end of the day, I know that I will doing a big favour to a lot of people, while others thing the opposite is true.

The fact that I have some Olive wood and I share most of it with anyone that is willing to pay a fair amount for it, has nothing to do with the claim I'm making.  In reality, is the simple fact that I have had in my pass an extensive working experience with all aspects of the Olive Tree, as explained on part (I), and a continued passion for all woods including the one that was always very special to me, the Olive Tree that, I feel very strongly about this very wrong scam and those particularly target. Is BOW the only Olive wood in the world...??? absolutely not, does people know that there are many other places on hearth where one can get Olive wood...??? have you checked what is available in your own country...??? Can one get Olive wood with identical or even superior qualities/figure, etc..., locally or elsewhere...??? absolutely yes..! any reason why one wants to pay twice or more, for a piece of Olive wood, and continue "feeding" the scam...??? you tell me...!  
What would happen if someone would start to flood the market with $1 high grade *Olive wood pen blanks*...??? would you care then, if wasn't tagged as BOW and be supplied with a "certificate of authenticity"...??? would you buy them...???

I have tried to demonstrate here, for those that didn't know already by following my work for some years, in wood related forums, I'm very honourable to my word and I don't take kindly insinuations of dishonesty and misrepresentation of my actions, however I've learnt that the best way to keep safe is to have my friends close and my enemies closer...!

I have promised that, I would give you something and that is exactly what I'm doing.  For those that feel that nothing of this have any value to them or that is not giving the answers they want, I'm sorry, this is all you are going to get.

According to some legal advice I requested, in regards to a couple of emails copies I added in this final Presentation, the value of the originals are not compromised or less valued in a Court of Law.  Names and any other information omitted on those documents, will NOT be revealed to anyone here regardless, the only place where those and any other original evidence will ever be revealed to, will be to a judge in a Court case situation. 

*This will end my contribution to this thread*, I've spent enough of my time with it for now, is time for you all to digest it and do with the information whatever you feel right, that will be yours and only decision...!

Thank you for your patience...!:wink::biggrin:

PS: Don't forget to have another look at those video links I gave you a few post back, in it you will see what the situation in Bethlehem is in regards to the olive trees, all larger trees being bulldozed and burnt in most cases and all the pics from the trees that have had all its tops cut off as a the most hurtful thing anyone could ever do to those people.  You see the size of those trees and you can see also perfectly that they are so young that they have almost non-existent heartwood in them.

Another thing that has been playing with my head/mind is the possibility that some of the best Olive trees have been ripped off the ground and taken somewhere, you see actually some large trees without any branches chained to a building somewhere.  I wonder what sort of deals where made with those that ripped them out, to keep all the wood and sell it as "blessed" "symbol of Peace" "sacred tree" and off-course BOW.  I wonder what religious people would thing if they found out that the wood they are buying has come from these trees that represent everything the Olive tree shouldn't, revenge, cruelty, punishment, religious sacrilege, terror, and all the worse reasons/motives a human has created and justified to impose their race superiority among others...! I really wonder...!:frown:

Maybe something that I will look into, in the near future...!:wink:

Here is the Presentation starting point...! (double click on it!):biggrin:

*Pic1*
[URL=http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v611/jorgesmaximus/Olive%20wood%20issues/?action=view&current=prunedmatureOlivetree.jpg]
	
[/URL]


Geezz....look at that "viewers" count go...!!!!

Cheers
George


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## spnemo

Thanks for the pics George.  I enjoyed your analysis and pictures.  However, I don't think this presentation proves anything (except that you have some awesome olive wood in Australia).


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