# What is your favorite stabilization medium?



## RaisinCain (Aug 16, 2006)

Hi guys,

I have been going over the archives here and really enjoy your input.

One thing that I have noticed is the variety of stabilizing mediums used; everything from ready-to-go Minwax Hardener to glue+water to acetone+fiberglass.  It has really been a great read.

A couple of things that are sometimes missing from these post is (a) the exact recipe and methods you use (including immersion and drying times) and (b) where you get the materials you use.

Could some of you more experienced guys help out a newbie here?  Any information you can give is appreciated, and the more detailed the better.  I am just getting ready to stabilize my first batch in the next couple of weeks and look forward to your input.  I would like to keep the cost down, and at ~$9.00 a pint the Minwax Hardener is seems a bit pricey.  Again, any information is appreciated!  Thanks!


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## Dario (Aug 16, 2006)

I use plexiglass-acetone.

Wasn't impressed with the vacuum method (and it can smell nasty FAST).  I will try pressure soon.

My solution was thinner than what I'll try this time.  I just soak a few pieces of plexiglass on acetone and shake it a couple times a day.  Solution should be thick enough after a week.  I tend to put more plexiglass in the jar than needed...then pour out the solution to another container.  Later, I'll add more acetone (and maybe more plexiglass) to the original glass jug/jar for the next batch.


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## penbros (Aug 16, 2006)

> _Originally posted by RaisinCain_
> <br />
> 
> A couple of things that are sometimes missing from these post is (a) the exact recipe and methods you use (including immersion and drying times) and (b) where you get the materials you use.



What about measurments


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## RaisinCain (Aug 16, 2006)

[quoteWasn't impressed with the vacuum method (and it can smell nasty FAST).  I will try pressure soon.
[/quote]

Thanks for the input, Dario.  I am surprised that you did not care for the vacuum method; I seem to remember that you were one of the people that built a great looking setup with  vacuum pump that you had purchased at a flea market.  Maybe I am remembering incorrectly.  If it was you that built it and if you don't mind me asking, why did this not work out for you?

Thanks,
Brad in Dallas


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## Dario (Aug 16, 2006)

Sorry guys, can't help much because I myself am still experimenting (when feel like and find time).

With the vacuum, I let the blanks soak for 2 days and as I said, helped some but not that impressive.  Penetration is all the way though and helped my soft blanks to the point that there is no tearout while drilling.

Drying, is just a few days.  I think after a week I cannot smell even a trace of acetone in the shavings while drilling.

That is the only stabilization experience I have/can share.


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## Dario (Aug 16, 2006)

Brad it works great...but the fume that it creates is too much.  While doing a vacuum, the acetone boils and turns into gas....as I pull out the air...it is getting replaced by gaseous acetone [B)]...so I never really got/attain good vacuum even though my vacuum can pull really good.

Maybe it will work better with a different solution. []


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## smoky10 (Aug 16, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Dario_
> <br />Brad it works great...but the fume that it creates is too much.  While doing a vacuum, the acetone boils and turns into gas....as I pull out the air...it is getting replaced by gaseous acetone [B)]...so I never really got/attain good vacuum even though my vacuum can pull really good.
> 
> Maybe it will work better with a different solution. []



I have the same problem as Dario. I use a manifold on mine and I would almost shut it off to keep it from boiling the acetone out.I believe the vaccuum pump from a "seal-a-meal" would work because it would draw it down much slower, I've been looking for one at yard sales and flea markets but no luck. Someone here may have tried it already.


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## ctEaglesc (Aug 16, 2006)

I started stabilizing 2 years ago with acetone and plexiglass.
I wasn't the first but at least among the first. My initial use was to cut down on the amount of CA that I as a new pen turner(About two months) used on my corn cob pens.
Here is a link with the first results of my stabilizing using "bondo wood hardener"
www.penturners.org/forum/topic.asp?ARCHIVE=true&TOPIC_ID=875&SearchTerms=corn,cob,stabilizing

There are A couple of things I have noticed and can make recommendations on based on my experiences.

I suggest you start with a commercial product so you get an idea of viscosity.
I found the Bondo worked well and changed to acetone plexiglass only because of the cost.Acetone and scrap plexi is cheap compared to the commercial product but the fact I had a starting point to work from saved me a lot of time.
Secondly is we are not using the same method of a commercial stabilizing set up.They use pressure and heat.I imagine pressure that is far more than what is safe in a paint pot or pressure cooker. I have posted this analogy before so if you have read this bear with me.
To make it simple lets assume you are using a 50% acetone plexiglass mix. Half liquid half solid.
If you saturate the piece with the solution it will be "completely filled"
BUT the acetone will flash off eventually once it is removed from the solution.This happens  almost immediately on the surface but will take time for the liquid to "harden" inside the blank.Even then, the plexiglass ideally needs to cure 24 hours to harden and will continue to harden with time.
The pores that were filled with the liquid under ideal conditions  are still only filled 50% because we started out with a 50% solution.
Stabilizing is great, it saves money but will not replace commercial set ups with the equipment we have available.
You still need  sharp tools and the surface will not be the same as a commercially stabilized blank.
One more thought.
Woods with oils such as walnut ebony, and others will be bleached out with the acetone if you do not keep your solutions separate.
these are things to consider.

Other observations.
All this talk about  the acetone is boiling made me look at what was happening.
If the bubbles are coming from the blank to the point where the secodary vessel is over flowing cut down on the vacuum.
After the piece has given up as much "air" from it that you can you will find reated cycles of pulling a vacuum will allow you to get readings of 25 or 26 inches hg.
that's pretty good for a home made system but you probably won't get them immediately.
Some of these bubbles or foaming is from the solution itself.Remember you mixed air with it when you transferred the solution from one vessel to the other.
A drop in the vacuum gauge doesn't necessarily mean you have a leak.
You are pulling a vaccum but as long as there is negative pressure there is air being released from the blank.The needle on the gauge is is showing the vacuum equalizing as the air is released from the blank.
I have been doing this long enough to know that what I am doing the way I am doing it is working.
Good luck with whatever method you choose[]
_I too  picked up a pressure cooker(not the cheapo kind but one that is similar to a paint pot and intend to start "playing around with stabilizing" under pressure.
The cost of my 15&1/2 quart aluminum pressure cooker?
$5.00.(insert gloat smiley here)_


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## Dario (Aug 16, 2006)

Eagles,

I assure you, the vacuum doesn't last no matter how slow or fast I vacuum.  It is almost like having a leak since the acetone evaporates and fill the vacuum fast!

I am also sure that the bubbling is not due to air from the blanks.  I had mine bubble for almost an hour and it never ceased...the "air/bubbles" I pulled from the blanks is probably enough to fill a a few twin inflatable mattress already []...no way that the blanks held that much air.  I posted a pic before and that one pic shows how wild the bubbling I am getting...it is similar to a boiling water with HUGE bubbles (1/4"-1/2" dia) not the tiny ones you would normally expect.

Be careful with that pressure cooker and check the maximum pressure it can handle.


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## alamocdc (Aug 16, 2006)

I always use vacuum and primarily acetone/plexi, but I'm still experimenting. Set things up with Eagle's help last year. At first I had a leak and couldn't maintain a vacuum. Now it's not a problem (again, thanks to Eagle).


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## ctEaglesc (Aug 16, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Dario_
> <br />Eagles,
> 
> I assure you, the vacuum doesn't last no matter how slow or fast I vacuum.  It is almost like having a leak since the acetone evaporates and fill the vacuum fast!I am also sure that the bubbling is not due to air from the blanks.  I had mine bubble for almost an hour and it never ceased...the "air/bubbles" I pulled from the blanks is probably enough to fill a a few twin inflatable mattress already []...no way that the blanks held that much air.  I posted a pic before and that one pic shows how wild the bubbling I am getting...it is similar to a boiling water with HUGE bubbles (1/4"-1/2" dia) not the tiny ones you would normally expect.
> ...


Dario-
Do you have a valve that allows you to shut off the vacuum chamber once you have pulled a vacuum?


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## mrplace (Aug 16, 2006)

I am kinda new to to vacuum/acetone method. But, I have yet had my vacuum fall under 20hg after I got the majority of air out of the blanks.

I had trouble with my first set-up leaking, so I took everything off and plumbed a nipple with a tee, gauge and then a hose barb. Havent lost vaccum yet. I have had on HOT days the vacuum drop, but when it cooled off, the vacuum went back up.


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## Dario (Aug 16, 2006)

Eagles,

Yes I do.  I also tested the setup without acetone and the vacuum held.


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## loglugger (Aug 16, 2006)

Dario, for a experiment pull a vacuum without the blanks in the jar, just the Plexiglas and acetone.  
RaisinCain, I use poly 60%and acetone 40% ( itâ€™s what I have handy )and pull a slow vacuum, stop momentarily  if it bubbles to much, once you get a full vacuum let it bleed off slow and redo a few times, When all the air is out of the blanks it will quit bubbling. I use a valve to shut off the vacuum hose and hold it over night. On soft wood or corn cods this can take awhile, some times  2 or more days if you donâ€™t keep right on it.  I cut and drill the blanks before they go into the ply. The poly will take about a week or more to dry depending on the weather.  Listen to Eagle.
Bob


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## RaisinCain (Aug 16, 2006)

First of all, thanks for the great discussion.  Its' been great to follow.

Just out of curiosity, where to you guys get the fiberglass?  I've never worked with fiberglass before, so is there more than one kind or anything I should steer clear of?

Can you put dye in with the acetone\fiberglass blend and do the dyeing and stabilization at the same time?

Thanks!


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## alamocdc (Aug 16, 2006)

Plexiglass, NOT fiberglass! And I get it in scraps from glass shops for free.


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## RaisinCain (Aug 17, 2006)

Thanks Billy; I meant Plexiglass but that was a great catch; will save someone a lot of itching![]


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## Dario (Aug 17, 2006)

Eagles,

Here is my post with a pic of the setup  http://www.penturners.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14577&SearchTerms=vacuum

Note that though I didn't install the gauge, I can hear the "fizzle" when I release the vacuum via the valve.

As I said, when tested without the solution...I get the "fizzle" even after overnight.  With the acetone, it almost is none existent after a while.  

What's odd is after the long vacuum run the exterior of the jar is actually freezing cold [:0]...and my garage is HOT!

This post by mwechtal and pssherman probably explains it much better...


> _Originally posted by mwechtal_
> <br />
> 
> 
> ...






<br />


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## wood-of-1kind (Aug 17, 2006)

> _Originally posted by RaisinCain_
> <br />
> Can you put dye in with the acetone\fiberglass blend and do the dyeing and stabilization at the same time?
> 
> Thanks!



Yes.I primarily stabilize and add a dye mixture to my acetone bath. I do NOT add plexi. My interest lies with adding 'colour' to my blanks rather than hardening the wood. Have had mixed success with the penetration of colour. Some woods soak up the colour better than others (sycamore & maple work well for me). I'm currently doing some fig blanks and I may post the results if they colour successfully. 

-Peter-


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## Rifleman1776 (Aug 17, 2006)

My favorite technique for stabilization is to mail to a friend who does it for me at a very small fee. Then he mails back to me when done. Very easy and effective. [][8D]


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## Rifleman1776 (Aug 17, 2006)

BTW, those glass jar set-ups scare the *bleep* out of me. I know it is done a lot by those here and elsewhere. But the idea of a glass jar under vacuum or pressure, full of chemicals imploding or exploding is discomfiting.


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## ctEaglesc (Aug 17, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Rifleman1776_
> <br />BTW, those glass jar set-ups scare the *bleep* out of me. I know it is done a lot by those here and elsewhere. But the idea of a glass jar under vacuum or pressure, full of chemicals imploding or exploding is discomfiting.



Interesting comment from a guy who stuffs gunpowder in a metal tube and then sets a spark to it on purpose with his eyes directly behind the point of explosion.
I am not concerned about a jar imploding as long as I am not in the jar.( as many will attest that won't happen)
Think of how John Glenn and the rest of the Mercury Astronauts must have felt.


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## wood-of-1kind (Aug 17, 2006)

> _Originally posted by cteaglesc_
> <br />[I am not concerned about a jar imploding as long as I am not in the jar.( as many will attest that won't happen)



I'll drink to your good health, Eagle[]

-Peter-


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## punkinn (Aug 17, 2006)

I use a vacuum set up (my BF's pump from his veneer jig) and the Minwax Wood Hardener.  It works wonderfully.  I keep the vacuum on for about an hour after it stops bubbling completely (and it bubbles for quite a long time with some woods).  All in all, blanks stay in the solution/vacuum for about 3 hours or so.  Then they come out, hang to dry, and I turn them the next day.  Easy-peasy.  I reuse the Minwax (just keep pouring it back into the bottle when I'm done) and it goes quite a long way.  

Nancy


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## Rifleman1776 (Aug 17, 2006)

> _Originally posted by cteaglesc_
> <br />
> 
> 
> ...




      [][][]


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## Kaspar (Aug 17, 2006)

Has anyone attempted stabilization with hide glue?  I will be venturing in that direction soon.


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## whatwoodido (Aug 18, 2006)

I have been playing with dyes to see how well vacuum works and what I have found is that the wood fibers act like a filter, they actually filter out most of the dye.  I do get some dye throughout the blank so I am getting liquid saturation, but he amount of dye making it into the wood is very limited.  I expect that the stabilization should have the same problem, particularly with thicker stabilizing materials.  

I tried stailization with sanding sealer, figured it would still take dyes, stains, and finishes quite well.  I found the same thing, good liquid pentration, but not particularly good saturation of the hardening properties.

Drew


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## bonefish (Aug 18, 2006)

The only hide glue I have ever used dissolved when it got wet. 

Bonefish


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## ctEaglesc (Aug 18, 2006)

Actually after re-reading the subject question I realized the simple answer for me is CA glue.[]


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## terrymiller (Aug 18, 2006)

Just curious has anyone tried the Clear Penetrating Epoxy yet I have not had the time or money yet so I am just curious.


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## bonefish (Aug 19, 2006)

A few days ago, someone wrote about using epoxy resin and a pressure pot to stabilize wood. 

If I remember, this person said that the results were better than anything he had used up until that time.

I don't remember the post, but it is probably in the archives. 

I didn't look it up because I'm feeling lazy this morning.

Bonefish


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## Gadget (Aug 19, 2006)

Hey guyd i have been fooling around with aceatone/plexi in a pressure pot and have ended up with a big mess and blanks that have verry little penetration. I stumbled across this article http://www.northcoastknives.com/northcoast_knives_tutorials_hints_tips3.htm  and i will modify it a little i think heat is one of the keys. Im gonna try heating the blanks with the wood hardener to about 200 degrees for a couple of hours. A hot plate should be good (no open flames im looking to have fun with my hobby not to get blown up) Then im going to place the solution into the pressure pot and draw a vaccum and then switch to pressure. I think that experimenting with times under pressure and vac is the only way to get it right. My only concern is how the wood hardener reacts with the wood and finishes. It might be a while but i will let you know how it works.


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## ctEaglesc (Aug 19, 2006)

I like the part where you mention no open flame.
Have you ever heard of spontaneous combustion?
A burner on a hot plate does not know any given temp.
It heats up at it's max temperature until either you turn it off or it shuts itslf down.
There is still a chance of sparking.
I wish you well but there are somethings even I won't try.
_HAve you considered sharpening your tools?)_[]

This concept was  mentioned a long time ago on this forum when the subject of stabilizing was in its' infancy.
IIRC correctly the original potser gave up on the idea, I hope you have better results.
BTW have you ever heard the joke about the dead red neck who's last words to his buddy were:
Hey! watch this!
[xx(]

As far as the link to the knife maker.
knife scales are much thinner.


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## Dario (Aug 19, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Gadget_
> <br />Hey guyd i have been fooling around with aceatone/plexi in a pressure pot and have ended up with a big mess and blanks that have verry little penetration. I stumbled across this article http://www.northcoastknives.com/northcoast_knives_tutorials_hints_tips3.htm  and i will modify it a little i think heat is one of the keys. Im gonna try heating the blanks with the wood hardener to about 200 degrees for a couple of hours. A hot plate should be good (no open flames im looking to have fun with my hobby not to get blown up) Then im going to place the solution into the pressure pot and draw a vaccum and then switch to pressure. I think that experimenting with times under pressure and vac is the only way to get it right. My only concern is how the wood hardener reacts with the wood and finishes. It might be a while but i will let you know how it works.



I won't do it with heat.  Much as I hate sending blanks to be commercially stabilized....I will do it that way first before doing it the way you described.

I put more value to my families well being (me included) and my house.


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## wdcav1952 (Aug 19, 2006)

Gadget,

Quite simply, don't use heat.  I used that method two years ago.  Fortunately, the only thing that was ruined was my glasses.  No, I didn't use open flame; I used hot water.  When the bottom of the Minwax gets hot enough, it erupts through the cooler upper layer and splashes anything it the way.

For what it is worth,


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## cozee (Aug 19, 2006)

> BTW have you ever heard the joke about the dead red neck who's last words to his buddy were:
> Hey! watch this!



I thought it was, "_Here, hold my beer!_"


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## cozee (Aug 19, 2006)

Has anyone tried predrilling blanks with a smaller than needed (3/16 or so) pilot hole to aid in the saturation of the stablizing mixture? This would also allow for quicker exiting of trapped air.


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## alamocdc (Aug 19, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Gadget_
> <br />Hey guyd i have been fooling around with aceatone/plexi in a pressure pot and have ended up with a big mess and blanks that have verry little penetration. I stumbled across this article http://www.northcoastknives.com/northcoast_knives_tutorials_hints_tips3.htm  and i will modify it a little i think heat is one of the keys. Im gonna try heating the blanks with the wood hardener to about 200 degrees for a couple of hours. A hot plate should be good (no open flames im looking to have fun with my hobby not to get blown up) Then im going to place the solution into the pressure pot and draw a vaccum and then switch to pressure. I think that experimenting with times under pressure and vac is the only way to get it right. My only concern is how the wood hardener reacts with the wood and finishes. It might be a while but i will let you know how it works.



Gadget, my grandmother used this method, so it's not at all new. No, she didn't stabilize blanks, but she did can fruits and vegetables (as does LOML) using a hot water bath. The only difference between what this guy does and those of us using vacuum systems is the added heat. You'll note that he said at the end that the jar will seal with a vacuum. Yes, it may open the pores of the wood some. But I'm not sure I want to heat the chemicals we use to nearly 200 degrees. Just my thoughts.


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## DCBluesman (Aug 20, 2006)

If folks insist on heating the chemicals we use, at least check out the flashpoint of the chemicals.  Here's one source. http://tinyurl.com/lg5av  Note that the temperature is the number of degrees below 32*C. For example, acetone at the equivalent of 64 degrees F a spark can ignite acetone vapors!  As you increase the temperature of the acetone, you increase the release of vapors, thereby increasing the risk of explosion.  Be careful out there!


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## Kaspar (Aug 20, 2006)

> _Originally posted by bonefish_
> <br />The only hide glue I have ever used dissolved when it got wet.
> 
> Bonefish



Can hide glue be made waterproof? Yes, by adding 1/2-1% aluminum sulfate. Exposure to formaldehyde fumes will render dry hide glue insoluble.

<b>Can hide glue be made flexible?</b> Yes, by adding 5% (based on the weight of glue) glycerin. Increase the amount by increments of 2-3% of the glycerin to achieve greater flexibility. This works well when gluing canvas to the back of a tambour door.


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## redfishsc (Aug 20, 2006)

Has anyone tried plane-jane fiberglass resin? I intended the word "fiber" not "plexi".


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## cozee (Aug 20, 2006)

Fiberglass resin, when mixed to cure properly, sets up too fast for stabilization I'd believe. Most will begin to set in 5-15 minutes. That is unless someone knows of a slow setting hardener. Also, this type of resin isn't clear, at least most that I have used in automotive work isn't.


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## redfishsc (Aug 21, 2006)

Thanks Greg, I didn't know they set that fast, I haven't used them myself before.


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## Gadget (Aug 21, 2006)

Ok so i was not so detailed in my description. Yes i would check the flash point of the liquid/ solvent being used and i wasnot going to heat it directly on a hot plate. I would use a waterbath and according to the article that guy used boiling water. Thats 212 degrees also the flashpoint for any solvent will most likely be lower in a vaccum. The aceatone method boils off the aceatone fast. I do believe that heat is the key. I dont want to blow up either. I have not found any liquid that will penetrate verry far into a blank that doesnot stay liquid or soft in the center.


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## wdcav1952 (Aug 22, 2006)

Gadget,

I read and used that article.  As noted above, I used hot water as he recommended.  I used a heavy duty canning jar.  If you must try this method, one that I personally consider foolish, be sure to wear full face mask protection.  Also remember that pen blanks are usually a bit thicker than knife scales.


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## ctEaglesc (Aug 22, 2006)

> Also remember that pen blanks are usually a bit thicker than knife scales.


Good point Cav(what are you doing up so early?oops I forgot, Switzerland time[])
Stabilized knife scale are sold as 3/8ths inch thick pieces.From teh ones I have seen they  seem to be much harder than the stabilized pen blanks I Have seen.Is this because the penetration of the solution is because they are thinner?HMMMMMMMMMM?

Here is what I have figured out after 2 years of stabilizing with acetone and plexi, with hand bleeder pumps and the $10.00 venturi pump from HF.
1.I won't get a piece of wood that is the same compareable hardness as a commercial set up.(I am not in the business of stabilizing woods I would rather spend the bulk of my time making blanks and turning pens)
I initially got into stabilizing for a less expensive alternative to CA for my corn cob pens and the aacetone plexi filled that bill.
I have since found other uses for my acetone plexi method and the biggest benifit is the process changes the properties of some woods that allows me to use certain species for my blanks and it makes glue ups easier, but the woods themselves would turn just fine without the process and stabilizing them with CA would be far simpler and faster.

2.For the most part, even a commercially stabilized blank will need a finish.It is NOT 100% plastic no matter what anyoneone claims.They may shine like a newborn babies butt after polishing but will lose that shine in short time.

3.I use my stabilizing process as a convenience but it does not preclude the use of sharp tools and the use of CA.
There is no panacea in a home stabilizing set up.
The process of finding the correct combination of solution and technique is time consuming.If your goal is to duplicate a process that is alredy available and enjoy the pursuit of tinkering with it, GO FOR IT and I hope for your success.
I for one have found what works for me, realize its' limitaions and am happy with my results.


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