# Buying nib sections



## RDH79 (May 9, 2019)

Ok another question.
I bought these taps &dies in a group buy probably 5+ years ago.

DIES.   M10 X .75mm
           M12 X .8mm

Taps.   M10 X  .75mm
          M12 X.  .8mm

We're can I purchase sections for Rollerball and fountain pens to fit the tap?
I see Bock requires 8.5 X 1mm. From Beaufort.

Should I just get the new tap and go with his sections?

I plan to make my own sections someday but want to start out buying them.

Thank You!!

Rich


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## Curly (May 9, 2019)

You can buy the sections from any of the kit sellers that sell the El Grande, Churchill, Cambridge series of pens if they sell the sections separately. I think Beartooth is one if memory serves. Then you can get a M10 x1mm tap for it. One thing though is the M10 x 1mm and M12mm x .8mm is a close pairing and won't leave a lot of material between the two threads for strength. I suspect that's why you have the M10 x .75mm for sections. Leaves a touch more material.


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## bmachin (May 9, 2019)

Berea also sells the Churchill/El Grande section.

Bill


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## RDH79 (May 9, 2019)

So the tap and dies I have will only work if I make my own sections??
So if I buy the m10 X 1mm tap that will work with the sections on the El Grande Churchill and Cambridge.   Then what dies should I have??
I guess my guestion is:
To make a pen using the sections from the listed pens, What taps and dies do I need?

When I look at metric my mind goes numb.

Thank You!!


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## magpens (May 9, 2019)

Better get used to metric !

Just to clarify, is your M12 x 0.8 tap/die a triple start ? ... M12 x 0.8mm x 3

 If you bought it through an IAP group buy about 5 yrs ago, I would think that it is.

Now, if you buy the sections you listed they are already externally threaded so you won't need to buy the matching die ... just the tap suitable for the sections that you buy

You can buy the M10 x 1mm tap quite cheaply from a machine tool supplier. . It also comes in many tap and die sets you can buy from DIY suppliers along with a whole range of other sizes which may not be very useful if all you are doing is pens.

Quite frankly, I would not go with the El Grande, Churchill, Cambridge sizing (which uses the M10 x 1mm threaded section) .... because it is not a common sizing and because you don't already have the right tap.

I am struggling to understand why you bought the particular tap/die sets that you mentioned. . You must have had reasons for them.

Keep up your questions and some of us may be able to eventually give you the help you are seeking.

If you make your own sections (which is not hard) you can do anything you choose to do basically. . The field is wide open, and I sense that the problem is just making the choice and going with it.

If you are fixed on buying your sections (at least for now) I suggest you bite the bullet and go with the Beaufort sections and buy the required tap.  You won't need a die because those sections already have the external threading done, but I don't know whether they already have the internal threading. . You can always fire off any questions about that to Phil Dart at Beaufort. . Perhaps you can buy sections from him that already have the internals mounted (housing, feed, and nib). . You can't go wrong with what Phil is offering because the Bock "standards" are very common.


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## TonyL (May 9, 2019)

Possibly here: https://www.kitlesspens.co.uk/product-category/kitless-fountain-pen-sections/

or here: https://www.turnerswarehouse.com/collections/custom-bespoke-pen-supplies; https://www.classicnib.com/bock-nibs


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## RangeRat (May 9, 2019)

The sections from Beaufort are indeed threaded internally for Bock nib housings. I bought a couple to try my hand at kitless and they have worked out great. The sections are sold without nibs, so you can order whichever size/finish Bock nib that suits your taste. As Mal stated, you will need the specialty tap to match the section size you choose.


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## magpens (May 9, 2019)

Thanks for posting, Tony and George. . It is good to know these facts and sources.

 A question of terminology ... on the ClassicNib website they use the word "triple" in reference to the nib ... what does that mean ?
 For example: "Classic Nib Phoenix Nib Gilded Fine Triple"
 I am thinking that "triple" may refer to the width of the nib (probably at the very tip).


NOPE: Got my answer from Pete, with thanks ... see below


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## Curly (May 9, 2019)

Mal I think the OP wants to start with ready made sections to see how he gets on with caps and barrels. You know, baby steps. Makes sense and others got their start the same way.


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## Curly (May 9, 2019)

Triple = nib + feed + housing. The nib and feed friction fit into the housing which is threaded for the section.


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## magpens (May 9, 2019)

OK, Pete ... so "triple" actually means "triplet" ... or consisting of 3 parts: the housing, the feed, and the nib ... THANKS !


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## magpens (May 9, 2019)

Curly said:


> Mal I think the OP wants to start with ready made sections to see how he gets on with caps and barrels. You know, baby steps. Makes sense and others got their start the same way.



 Yeah, I fully understand that, Pete. . That's the route I took. . But the M10 x 1mm thread for sections is not very common. . In retrospect, I should have started with the Bock "standard" which Beaufort sells. . And since the OP does not have the right tap even for the M10 x 1mm, my thinking is that he might as well start with the Bock and buy that tap. . And then if he likes what he is doing, he has already made the "correct" start to go further. . I know that the M10 x 1mm tap is considerably cheaper, but it could be a wasted expenditure in the "long run" whereas the Bock-compatible tap will serve him as he progresses.

 Learning to do the caps and bodies is the really fun part, I know. . But the section, etc., is what makes it write ... (er ... "right" !!).

In my case, I already had the M10 x 1mm tap ... from a Canadian Tire tap/die set which I had bought a couple of decades before I got interested in pens !! . It was kinda coincidence that the El Grande uses that thread so it was a good start, I suppose, but the Bock is closer to "reality".


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## RDH79 (May 9, 2019)

Yea I know I need to just get use to the metric. Old dog new tricks.
I have dealt with Phil in the past. Great guy. He got me some cases from a UK company that I lik. They didn't ship to the US. I will go with the bock.
Why did I buy the taps and dies I have?? That's what the group buy was for. I had no idea what I was doing really.  Just thought that is what I needed. I know they were not cheap. 
Ok 1 more question and I will search out past posts. 
So if I get the 8.5 X 1mm tap for the Bock sections what size die do I need for the threads that screw into the cap?  Hope that makes sence.
Thank You for all the help. Waiting on my die holder so I can get started.


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## magpens (May 9, 2019)

Yeah, Rich ... I think you are better off to start with the Bock ... M8.5 x 1mm ...

The next consideration is the die and tap for the body to cap threads. 

I think you could quite safely go ahead with the M12, which you already have, as long as the section that you buy will fit through that thread size on the cap.

 The M12 male thread has an O.D. of 12 mm. . You cut that with the M12 die and that's your barrel. . The cap has a female M12 thread and your section has to fit through that. . The I.D. of that female thread will be about 11 mm, or just a little bit bigger, probably close to 11.2 mm. . I recommend that you check with Phil Dart that your section is going to fit through there.

If the M12 die won't do the job (but I am pretty sure it will) then M13 will for sure.

 Good luck, and keep us posted, please.

If you haven't already ordered your die holder, a good one to get is the one from LittleMachineShop.com ... or I think that Rick Herrell, in the IAP vendor section, makes a good one also. . This die holder has a stub which fits in the tailstock of your lathe so that you can do the threading (by hand, NOT under power) on your lathe. . That is the best method. . These die holders are cylindrical in shape, and the die is held in one end with set screws; the Morse taper stub goes out the other end of the cylinder.


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## RangeRat (May 9, 2019)

The pre-made size 5 Bock section and nib will definitely work with the 12x.8 tap/die combo. I have the same sizes and there were no clearance issues.


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## RDH79 (May 9, 2019)

Thank You for the great information. I wish I would have started this over the winter. 
This is my busy time with traveling to do 18-20 till end of Nov. 
I’ll keep you posted with the success and failures. 
Again
Thank You!!


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## magpens (May 9, 2019)

Ok, Rich ! . Safe traveling !

I perhaps should apologize for kinda dominating this thread ... it has been an opportunity for me to organize my thoughts and review some concepts ... hope you and others don't mind too much.


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## RDH79 (May 10, 2019)

magpens said:


> Ok, Rich ! . Safe traveling !
> 
> I perhaps should apologize for kinda dominating this thread ... it has been an opportunity for me to organize my thoughts and review some concepts ... hope you and others don't mind too much.





No apologies needed.
Great information. You put me on the right track.
Thank You!!


Sent from my iPhone using Penturners.org mobile app


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## bmachin (May 10, 2019)

A little late to the party here, but would like to add this.

Many, many, many El Grande sections have been put into pens with 12x.8 cap threads over the years and the pens have survived quite well--ONCE BOTH SECTION AND CAP THREADS HAVE BEEN COMPLETED!

There are several threads on the site discussing this, but the problem basically comes down to the forces involved in tap and die threading. This is where most failures will occur.  

The easiest solution is to provide some support for the second operation. For example if you tap the section hole first, thread a fairly tight fitting plug for the hole prior to cutting the barrel threads. Conversely, if you cut the barrel threads first, thread a fairly tight fitting collar to support them prior to tapping the section threads.

Personal quibble on the Bock sections (aside from the $24 price tag for the cheapest nib/section combo) is that they are metal, and I think that you will find that most fountain pen people just don't like metal sections. Granted, The bock nib is far superior to then on the  El Grande.

FWIW,
Bill


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## RDH79 (May 10, 2019)

*El Grande section*

Thank You Bill for adding to the information..
Were do you get your El Grande sections only from?


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## bmachin (May 10, 2019)

Go Here:

https://www.bereahardwoods.com/pen-kit/supplies/nibs.html

Bill


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