# one sided trade



## elody21

A few months ago I got a request from a member to trade a box of corian blanks for some of his homemade blanks. I thought sure. I spent $10.95 postage to sent over 300 blanks to this person I still have not received anything in return. The first couple of times I contacted him he said he was in the process of making them and after a while I got no response.
99.9% of the time people are honest and have full intention of following through with a trade. I am a very trusting person.
I am still, after 3-4-5 months hoping he will send something for the, so far, one sided trade.
Maybe this thread will  encourage him to do so.
No hard feelings.
Alice


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## MartinPens

I think that's a good way to encourage this person. Of all the transactions I've done on here only one has been lousy. Maybe if the person doesn't respond you could send a message to Jeff, the forum moderator and see if he has suggestions, guidelines as to approaching it. I think we would all like to know who it is, in case we too have been part of a one-sided trade from the same person. Check with Jeff.

MartinPens

Sent from my iPad using Forum Runner


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## ctubbs

Alice, Martin has good advice.  I too, believe you handled this in the most gracious manner possible.  Possibly Jeff could start a very small list of 'problem' members to trade or do business with.  When I get involved in a trade, I try to include a note to the recipient requesting them to decide if they received value for the trade, if not let me know what it will take to be even.  So far, none have requested additional.  Guess I am just lucky.  Alice, I hope this can be resolved in a manner to your liking.
Charles


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## BRobbins629

Having been stiffed myself in a pen swap awhile ago - I made 2 pens and received none - I'm all for a wall of shame with the caveat that the person has the opportunity to defend themselves.  I did report this member to the activities manager at the time who said the member would be banned from future activities, but still look for his name on any lists.


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## Dalecamino

Alice, is this member still active on the forum? I wonder if there is some valid reason for the lack of response. Hope this works out for you as well.


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## alphageek

Alice... Although the IAP has no 'power' to help you with this, I do know that Mike (our activities director) has been tracking people that don't follow through so that they don't cause others grief with IAP activities... I would suggest you send him this info (via PM to mbroberg) and at least let him know.


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## bitshird

Bruce, I'm in the same boat, last PITH I got stiffed. the person is still around, and I too reported it to Mike. 99.7% of the time trade go great. But there's that awful.3%


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## kinggabby

I agree there should be a wall of shame ... I personally would like to know .Who it is safe to order from or trade with. I know some can afford to take a hit to their pocketbooks. But we should not have to. And to allow these people to remain unknown makes it easy for them to do this to new victims. My .01 worth. Thank you in advance. 

Dave Griffee


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## Edward Cypher

I haven't done any trades as of yet but I would be interested in who not to trade or buy from.  So far everyone I have bought from has been incredible.  It is a shame a few bad apples spoil everything.  I work with Teenagers in Amigos de las Americas and we try to instill in them that honor and integrety is of the upmost importance and then to hear adults doing this......well it is a sad comment on our society.


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## Texatdurango

I realize that there are many liberal thinking folks on this forum that normally would bend over backwards WAY more than I ever would in instances like this but it's time we stop being silent victoms and say enough is enough, not everyone deserves a dozen chances to do the right thing.  WHy should a decent person like Alice have to go through this nonsense?  Here is my feeling on the subject.

I think a "STICKY" thread needs to be in place in the classified forums as well as the casual converstation forum.  When a person such as described above is mentioned to a moderator, then the moderator could notify them and demand immediate action or to at least hear their side of the story.  If satisfied that their name warrants being added to an *"Unsavory individuals with low moral character"* list, then so be it!  The crooks hanging around the forum are not going to identify themselves, it's up to us to help them out.

I think it's high time that these characters are no longer allowed to prey on members with, up until now, total impunity!

Go get 'em moderator team, start 2011 off with a good idea!


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## mredburn

It is as always, easy to call for harsh measures, however we do not know the situation of the other half. Life is full on unpleasant occurrences and we don't know if the other member(s) simply has had to many hardships and is embarrassed to step up and finish the deal or if that member is simply a cheat. Better to report it to the moderators and let them deal with the situation than to publicly black list a member that has fallen down beyond their ability to recover. Vendors should be dealt with more harshly as to stop them from praying on th e membership. 
I know that I, as well as many member would step up to replace the blanks to Alice to lessen her losses. We stand together. I dont have home brew blanks but I would forward a selction of my best without regrets if it would help.

Mike


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## kinggabby

People need to stop being so nice and letting things go. Oh it did not cost me that much .... Well it adds up when they take from you... from the next ... from the next... I am sure you get my point. I think we have wonderful leadership here and I trust them to do what they feel is right. And you people who take and take and take... How can you sleep knowing you are stealing from people who can not afford it... What if it was you , your kids or your mom who was a victim from someone like you . Stop  please.


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## john l graham

Wow. I nominate George as Sgt at arms for the people of low moral character section.


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## maxwell_smart007

I think that the predominant trend in this board is generousity and trustworthyness.  If a few individuals are not meeting that expectation, then they are indeed barred from participating in any further contests and events. 

But posting a list isn't going to do anything except focus on the negative instances that are in the VAST minority - with the collateral damage being that newbies might be afraid to try out some of the contests and events like PITH. 

If you were stiffed on a PITH or something similar, PM Mike.  He'll make sure that the person doesn't participate in other activities until they've squared up...and there are always those willing to step in and send an extra pen or the like to ensure that you don't miss out on the fun. 

All that being said, Alice, if you PM me the name in question, I'll see if I can get in contact with the individual and see if we can get a dialogue going that way.  

Andrew


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## omb76

mredburn said:


> I know that I, as well as many member would step up to replace the blanks to Alice to lessen her losses. We stand together. I dont have home brew blanks but I would forward a selction of my best without regrets if it would help.
> 
> Mike



I only have 1 corian blank (mint green) but it is yours if you want it Alice!  :biggrin:


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## kinggabby

Not trying to sound negative. But how does that help stop them from hurting people on trades and things that are not under the realm of group activities? What if after an investigation then place them on a list of people we should not deal with. That way they have a chance to tell their side and make things right first.... then if the fail than then black list openly?


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## Andrew_K99

Maybe have a March 'Bash' for these individuals .

AK


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## alphageek

Texatdurango said:


> <clipped>
> Go get 'em moderator team, start 2011 off with a good idea!



FYI - George... This is an item that would have to be proposed and rules implemented by Jeff.   This would be a new policy and no matter if the idea is good or bad, until its put into place by Jeff, there isn't much that the moderator team can do here.

Dean Charlier 
Assistant Moderator


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## Texatdurango

maxwell_smart007 said:


> I think that the predominant trend in this board is generousity and trustworthyness.....


 
Not to make a big deal over it but I think that is exactly why some people are getting away with being scroundrels, they know they can get away with it!

Remember that little Mexican village in the movie "The Magnificant Seven"?  The outlaw kept coming back year after year and stealing everything they had because........ _he knew he could, and they would never do anything about it!_  Where's Charles Bronson and Yule Brenner when you need them! :biggrin:


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## keithkarl2007

At the moment I would consider myself one of those people. I have to send pen blanks to a couple of members who done trades with me maybe 2 months ago. I started having physio on my back around then and still go every fortnight. It is only now I am getting around to it as I have just started back in work after being laid off for a short time. I have sent PM,s to all involved, I think and if there is a member who I have neglected please let me know.


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## Texatdurango

alphageek said:


> Texatdurango said:
> 
> 
> 
> <clipped>
> Go get 'em moderator team, start 2011 off with a good idea!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FYI - George... This is an item that would have to be proposed and rules implemented by Jeff. This would be a new policy and no matter if the idea is good or bad, until its put into place by Jeff, there isn't much that the moderator team can do here.
> 
> Dean Charlier
> Assistant Moderator
Click to expand...

 

OK........... then go talk with Jeff! 

I just mentioned you guys since I knew it would have to be handled by the forum leadership.


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## Andrew_K99

keithkarl2007 said:


> At the moment I would consider myself one of those people. I have to send pen blanks to a couple of members who done trades with me maybe 2 months ago. I started having physio on my back around then and still go every fortnight. It is only now I am getting around to it as I have just started back in work after being laid off for a short time. I have sent PM,s to all involved, I think and if there is a member who I have neglected please let me know.


For what it's worth ... I would say you are NOT one of 'them' as you have notified all parties and there were uncontrolable circumstances.

AK


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## ed4copies

kinggabby said:


> Not trying to sound negative. But how does that help stop them from hurting people on trades and things that are not under the realm of group activities? What if after an investigation then place them on a list of people we should not deal with. That way they have a chance to tell their side and make things right first.... then if the fail than then black list openly?



Mbroberg (Mike) is the Activities Manager for all of a month now (he was "interim", but did not want to change much with that title).

So, Mike has been leading the Bash through his tenure, to this point.  He has also been a strong proponent of completing member profiles to make each person a little less "anonymous".

Having worked closely with Mike for the past month, I can say I have great admiration and respect for him.  (He stepped into the position previously occupied by my good friend, Cav, so he had BIG shoes to fill, in my esteem--he has done so!)

So, topics like this are a healthy directive.  Now, send Mike a PM and see what happens.  I believe you will find you have no more staunch supporter than Mike.  Give him a little time to find an equitable way to handle these situations.

"All I am saying, is give peac,,uh... MIKE a chance!!"


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## JerrySambrook

Andrew (Maxwell_Smart007),
   On occasion, negative reinforcement is a viable and constructive option.

We seem to let it be a way of life against vendors here on many occasoiins, so why should not a person be able to "call out" a fellow member here, when the same circumstance arise?

George, you and I agree whole-heartedly on this one.  Some of the other forums I belong to would ban people if there was not an acceptable (not even good) reason why a trade or interaction did not occur. And a couple of those forums, the people can shoot pretty damn good too!!


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## IPD_Mrs

kinggabby said:


> Not trying to sound negative. But how does that help stop them from hurting people on trades and things that are not under the realm of group activities? What if after an investigation then place them on a list of people we should not deal with. That way they have a chance to tell their side and make things right first.... then if the fail than then black list openly?


 

I have to agree with Dave on this.  Baring people from participating in group activities does nothing to stop what Alice went through and what others have silently encountered.  This is a rare occurrence on IAP but it does happen, and it probably happens much more than we all know.  We are talking about transactions on the IAP outside the jurisdiction of the activities manager.

I do not think it should be the job of the moderators to police these people.  I do think that the members of IAP are more than capable of policing these people.  Like Mike R. said earlier, situations change for people in a blink of an eye, and there may be good reason they have not lived up to their part of the agreement.  That of course would not excuse failing to be up from with the person you have the agreement with.  

Anything that is considered would have to approved by Jeff.


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## ed4copies

JerrySambrook said:


> Andrew (Maxwell_Smart007),
> On occasion, negative reinforcement is a viable and constructive option.
> 
> We seem to let it be a way of life against vendors here on many occasoiins, so why should not a person be able to "call out" a fellow member here, when the same circumstance arise?



Jerry, my friend, you know not everybody is as "even-handed" as you (oh most moderated member:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin.  If we "call out" people on the forum, the result will be a separation of the membership into "camp A" and "Camp B", and the great fight ensues!!  

Then, about four days later, the "dead horse" cartoon arrives and the sides go back to their daily jobs---laying in wait for the next opportunity to "get that no good SOB (depending on whether you were camp A or B, it could be SOA)"

Let's TRY to avoid that----as Alice has done here, thank you for the very appropriate and genteel approach, Alice!!  

(but do let Mike know who is the offender, please)


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## ThomJ

My pops used to say..........."Without honesty and integrity, you have nothing"


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## elody21

Well,
thanks everyone for your responses.  I figured they would be very diverse.
 I will have to check if the person is still active. I kept thinking that something was wrong to prevent them from sending the trade, like an illness or such. If this person is still active they will see this and hopefully fulfill the trade. This group overall has been wonderful and I would like to avoid a "wall of shame" although if things are not resolved probably letting Jeff know so it doesn't happen in the future might be a good thing.
It really is not the money. It is the priciple( is that spelled right?)
I will sit tight and hopefully will receive something now with this reminder and encouragement from you all.
I'll let everyone know what happens.
Thanks Alice


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## keithkarl2007

Good luck with it Alice. I traded stuff with RAdams and never received anything back. He is banned now so there is no way to contact him. I hope whoever it was that mistreated you is still active.


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## Texatdurango

ed4copies said:


> .......Jerry, my friend, you know not everybody is as "even-handed" as you (oh most moderated member:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin. If we "call out" people on the forum, *the result will be a separation of the membership into "camp A" and "Camp B",* and the great fight ensues!! .....


 
Uh.... Ed.... hate to tell you but there already is a seperation!  You didn't know that? 

Actually the best I can figure out, there at at least eight camps with some members belonging to more than one camp! :biggrin:


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## DozerMite

Alice, sorry that you had the misfortune to come across one of the many unscrupulous people in this world.

I too believe there should be a list.
This would only help prevent any future occurences with these individuals and save this type of hassle. If a person realizes the concequenses, perhaps it may deter this kind of activity.

Maybe new members should be required to have a certain number of substantial (not... I agree, +1, or that kind of crap) posts before being allowed to participate in activities. And maybe before being approved to be a new member... your real information would be part of the sign up process and Jeff would have access to these people. Jeff has my information and he is the _only_ person that should need it. I know there are those that like to bring that up.
I'm just saying... make membership more valuable. If a person has to earn a membership... they might respect it.


Alice, I don't have any cast blanks on hand right now, but if you would like a box, I can get some supplies and cast them for you.


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## Texatdurango

Before everyone starts feeling sorry for the scumbags... er, I mean... innocent victims who prey on their fellow members, I think that if a system was instituted where members who were cheated or scammed could contact a forum representative and let THEM figure out if this was a one time mistake due to caugh or common cold, or if there was a pattern of problems with a member.   

I just don't understand the problem with identifying the bad guys, what's the shame in that?  Their name wouldn't be on a wanted posted if they didn't do something bad to begin with!  I would sleep a lot better knowing that the unsavory folks walking amongst us were known to the membership rather than have them cheat yet another hapless victim tomorrow!


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## gawdelpus

In all of this there is an implicit trust involved , By far the greatest number of members are honorable and more than generous within their means . That said if some are not I would prefer to know, and thus protect myself from losses of any kind ,rather than suspecting all and everybody simply from lack of information. If the wrong thing has been done by anybody at all towards other members then that needs to be addressed by the "Admins" by whatever means is available to them , or as they see fit .If any action were to be undertaken such as an IP ban etc ,it is also in the interests of the fraternity to make known the details and outcomes to other such sites and forums , for instance no good to ban if that is the case, so the offender can just move to a new pasture   In this particular case the normal anonymity of the net does not exist for this person as an address and real name has been exchanged ,someone  may live quite close lol.  Cheers ~ John


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## hunter-27

Texatdurango said:


> ed4copies said:
> 
> 
> 
> .......Jerry, my friend, you know not everybody is as "even-handed" as you (oh most moderated member:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin. If we "call out" people on the forum, *the result will be a separation of the membership into "camp A" and "Camp B",* and the great fight ensues!! .....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Uh.... Ed.... hate to tell you but there already is a seperation!  You didn't know that?
> 
> Actually the best I can figure out, there at at least eight camps with some members belonging to more than one camp! :biggrin:
Click to expand...

There are EIGHT??  Heck I did not get an invite to join any of them.  :wink:

Guess I'm an army of one. :frown:


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## scrollsawwoodart

*Pith Happenings*

I participated in the PITH this year made contact with my person and even made the pen.  Fella got busy and never did get a chance to exchange pens.  He did make contact with me to let me know he was busy but an exchange never took place so I did not report him to the leader of the PITH.  

I think though if you do trade items and you send the goods you should have something sent back to you to complete the deal.  Just my opinion here but business is business you do not come through with something that was suppose to be done you should be called out.  I think this is the only way to deal with issues.  It sound to me like this individual took the proper steps to solve the problem amongst themselves but the good person had to deal with the consequences.  In my book that is a bad deal and you should be dealt with accordingly.  Again this is just my opinion and I have never had a bad deal go on so far with any of my IAP purchases or trades.  

We have a great website here with a great group of people and the mods do an excellent job especially as volunteers.  I respect everyones opinions on this website and I even respect the guy who I was suppose to PITH with even though we never exchanged.  He made contact with me and told me he was just to busy. 

Everyone here is awesome but a few bad apples should not bring us all against each other.

Again just my opinion fire at will if need be but I will still respect ya even if you disagree with me.

Jesse


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## ctubbs

hunter-27 said:


> Texatdurango said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ed4copies said:
> 
> 
> 
> .......Jerry, my friend, you know not everybody is as "even-handed" as you (oh most moderated member:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin. If we "call out" people on the forum, *the result will be a separation of the membership into "camp A" and "Camp B",* and the great fight ensues!! .....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Uh.... Ed.... hate to tell you but there already is a seperation!  You didn't know that?
> 
> Actually the best I can figure out, there at at least eight camps with some members belonging to more than one camp! :biggrin:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There are EIGHT??  Heck I did not get an invite to join any of them.  :wink:
> 
> Guess I'm an army of one. :frown:
Click to expand...

Don't feel like the Lonesome Dove!  Heck, I can't even count that high.
Charles


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## philb

I have to agree that a list would be good.
If there's a legitimate reason for a delay of a trade/order that can't be maintained then they wouldnt be on the list, and if there is a legitimate reason then why wouldn't a vendor/trader be in contact with there customer anyway, unless there unscrupulous!! 

I've been done many trades and bought if many members and only been stiffed once! That really left a bitter taste in the mouth as this memener had done many successful sales with me before. Then took my money and disappeared, along with other members cash! But apparently he had dine it before but I didn't know this till after I had been caught out! 

I feel if an order/trade can't be maintained or there's a delay, a PM or an email goes a long way! If people understand a reason then there normally good to wait. But a member whose sole intention is to rip off or just take and not give, they should be named and shamed!! 

The good ones are named, so why not the bad!! 

Phil


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## skiprat

Texatdurango said:


> the best I can figure out, there at at least *eight* camps with some members belonging to more than one camp! :biggrin:


 
Let me guess....:biggrin:

1. Narcissists
2. Demi-Gods
3. Wannabe Moderators
4. Resident Idiots
5. Over-rated Member/vendors
6. Egomaniacs
7. Scum and Crooks
8. General memberships

and maybe

9. All of the above

LOL, I don't mind admitting I'm an 8 with a bit of 6 thrown in for good measure. Mmmm, ok, add a smidgen of 4 as well.:biggrin:


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## hunter-27

hunter-27 said:


> Texatdurango said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ed4copies said:
> 
> 
> 
> .......Jerry, my friend, you know not everybody is as "even-handed" as you (oh most moderated member:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin. If we "call out" people on the forum, *the result will be a separation of the membership into "camp A" and "Camp B",* and the great fight ensues!! .....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Uh.... Ed.... hate to tell you but there already is a seperation!  You didn't know that?
> 
> Actually the best I can figure out, there at at least eight camps with some members belonging to more than one camp! :biggrin:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There are EIGHT??  Heck I did not get an invite to join any of them.  :wink:
> 
> Guess I'm an army of one. :frown:
Click to expand...




skiprat said:


> Texatdurango said:
> 
> 
> 
> the best I can figure out, there at at least *eight* camps with some members belonging to more than one camp! :biggrin:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Let me guess....:biggrin:
> 
> 1. Narcissists
> 2. Demi-Gods
> 3. Wannabe Moderators
> 4. Resident Idiots
> 5. Over-rated Member/vendors
> 6. Egomaniacs
> 7. Scum and Crooks
> 8. General memberships
> 
> and maybe
> 
> 9. All of the above
> 
> LOL, I don't mind admitting I'm an 8 with a bit of 6 thrown in for good measure. Mmmm, ok, add a smidgen of 4 as well.:biggrin:
Click to expand...

Ok maybe I was invited to group #4 and just did not realize it.


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## ldb2000

I aspire to be in group 4 ..... they're the most fun :biggrin:


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## wood-of-1kind

What happens if someone is FALSELY accused?


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## Texatdurango

ldb2000 said:


> I aspire to be in group 4 ..... they're the most fun :biggrin:


 Group 4 is larger than you might think, that's where most of us hang out.


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## Texatdurango

wood-of-1kind said:


> What happens if someone is FALSELY accused?


Well think about it Peter...... that's why when someone reports one of the *Unscrupulous, living-under-a-rock, low life slimeballs*, they do so privately to a forum rep who's job it would be to look into the alligations.

I doubt VERY SERIOUSLY your typical member would go to the bother of filing false accusations against someone knowing they would be proven wrong in an investigation.


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## bitshird

skiprat said:


> Texatdurango said:
> 
> 
> 
> the best I can figure out, there at at least *eight* camps with some members belonging to more than one camp! :biggrin:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Let me guess....:biggrin:
> 
> 1. Narcissists
> 2. Demi-Gods
> 3. Wannabe Moderators
> 4. Resident Idiots
> 5. Over-rated Member/vendors
> 6. Egomaniacs
> 7. Scum and Crooks
> 8. General memberships
> 
> and maybe
> 
> 9. All of the above
> 
> LOL, I don't mind admitting I'm an 8 with a bit of 6 thrown in for good measure. Mmmm, ok, add a smidgen of 4 as well.:biggrin:
Click to expand...


Heck Nine has been my favorite number since the White Album, I wanna be a 9, except I don't want any part of moderating!!


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## skiprat

aahhh George, you are forgetting group 5. 

If you are lucky enough to live in this group then even true complaints become false. 

_''''I mean for goodness sakes man, they are a pillar of our society, it must be you at fault, it couldn't possibly be  them. Now shut up'!!!'''_


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## ctubbs

I was born a 4 and never grew out of it.  Come to think of, I never want to grow out of group 4.  "I am what I am, and that's all that I am."  Who remembers that?
Charles


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## Texatdurango

skiprat said:


> aahhh George, you are forgetting group 5.
> 
> If you are lucky enough to live in this group then even true complaints become false.
> 
> _''''I mean for goodness sakes man, they are a pillar of our society, it must be you at fault, it couldn't possibly be them. Now shut up'!!!'''_


 
Now that's funny there, true but funny!  Or is it sad but true? :biggrin:


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## mbroberg

It is no secret among the Management Team that deadbeat, low-life, lyin, cheaten, thieving, dirtbag, bottom feeders who do not live up to their obligations to others tend to.............................................................................irratate me. Let me make it real clear that I know that there are occassions where legitimate circumstances prohibit completion of a trade, etc. but there is rarely an excuse for no communication.

I, with the support of the management team have been attempting to make it a little less easy for people to take advantage of others on the IAP, but only while involved in IAP Activities. I've always been of the opinion that private transactions between individuals were just that and people should understand the risks associated with conducting business on the internet. Reading this thread has caused a light-bulb to illuminate. I may be going about this the wrong way. So, let me refine the idea you all sparked and present it to the management team.

Alice, thanks for bringing this issue to the forefront. If you want to PM the name to me I will do what I can to contact the...................person..........and talk.

Jessee, PLEASE let me know who stiffed you during the PITH so I can make sure he will not stiff anyone else.

Thanks.


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## Rounder

Even if you ban or blacklist someone, they can still register with another name or email address. Can you ever really stop the determined person who wants to take advantage of others? I do hate seeing this happen but unfortunately there are people in the world who just don't care about having any morals. It is so nice to find a site like this one where most all are genuinely nice.


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## mbroberg

Rounder said:


> Can you ever really stop the determined person who wants to take advantage of others?


 
No

Can you make it more difficult for them to take advantage of others?

Yes.


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## randywa

mbroberg said:


> Rounder said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can you ever really stop the determined person who wants to take advantage of others?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No
> 
> Can you make it more difficult for them to take advantage of others?
> 
> Yes.
Click to expand...

 
I advocate sending a near by member for a visit.


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## Texatdurango

mbroberg said:


> It is no secret among the Management Team that deadbeat, low-life, lyin, cheaten, thieving, dirtbag, bottom feeders who do not live up to their obligations to others tend to.............................................................................irratate me. Let me make it real clear that I know that there are occassions where legitimate circumstances prohibit completion of a trade, etc. but there is rarely an excuse for no communication.
> 
> I, with the support of the management team have been attempting to make it a little less easy for people to take advantage of others on the IAP, but only while involved in IAP Activities. I've always been of the opinion that private transactions between individuals were just that and people should understand the risks associated with conducting business on the internet. Reading this thread has caused a light-bulb to illuminate. I may be going about this the wrong way. So, let me refine the idea you all sparked and present it to the management team.
> 
> Alice, thanks for bringing this issue to the forefront. If you want to PM the name to me I will do what I can to contact the...................person..........and talk.
> 
> Jessee, PLEASE let me know who stiffed you during the PITH so I can make sure he will not stiff anyone else.
> 
> Thanks.


 
*Hey.............. we might just have one of the "Magnificant Seven" onboard afterall!* :biggrin:


Mike, as you stated, it's not up to the IAP to police and play big brother by watching over private transactions between members since we are all adults and SHOULD know the dangers of dealing in cyber space.

That said, where I see a problem is the ever increasing mindset that we, the IAP membership is just one big happy family.  With that thinking, I believe some might take their gaurd down and extend a little more trust than they usually would elsewhere on the internet.  So, it's sorta the IAP's doing that we're so trusting of each other!:wink:


----------



## Brooks803

Mike, I know you'll do your best to help resolve this unfortunate situation. 

Elody, I know you don't wish to reveal the identity of the traitor...oops, I mean trader, but would you let us in on their end of the deal? 300 corian blanks for how many cast blanks? If need be I'd be happy to help fill in some of the blanks you've lost out on.


----------



## keithkarl2007

He is no longer a member on this forum.


----------



## skiprat

Group 10. Crap stirrer

..and not the first time either, :wink:


----------



## Robert Taylor

one thing that has not been mentioned is that someone offered to trade something that they did NOT even have. i'm willing to bet that they did not tell Alice that they had not made the blanks yet.
  so let's use some common sense here. if you ain't got it do not offer to trade it or sell it and no one will be out anything. i'm still out from a trade that will be soon three years old. the guy needed that slimline cross clip yesterday so i quickly sent not only the clip but a whole flat rate box of assorted blanks. six months later he actually posted "do i owe someone a trade" and i believe it was texatdurango that stood up for and pointed him back to the original posts. by the way thanks tex. but as of today he has not sent anything heck i don't even remember what he was to send lol.


----------



## Texatdurango

skiprat said:


> Group 10. Crap stirrer
> 
> ..and not the first time either, :wink:


 
But I prefer to think of myself as "Thought/action provoker" rather than stirrer.


----------



## lwalden

For what it's worth, I've engaged in dozens of trades with other members, in addition to being both a buyer and seller of goods through the classifieds more times than I could count. I have never had a bad experience over the roughly 5 years I've been a member, though I have had a few members I've decided to avoid based on other postings I've seen. By and large, I'd guess 98 to 99+% of the transactions here work well, which I think is phenomenal and a positive reflection on the forum and membership. That said, there obviously are times that a transaction does not meet expectations, whether due to a complete failure to deliver (regardless of what underlying circumstances might be the case) or due to perceived or actual perception that goods have been misrepresented. Addressing issues with vendors utilizing the classifieds already has a venue, with opportunities to provide vendor reviews. More difficult to monitor is just the type of situation communicated by Alice. For consideration, I am suggesting that we provide a method to indicate a member has unfulfilled obligations outstanding. We have an easy way to tag a post and forward to the attention of the moderator, along with info on which terms of use we believe the thread violates. Would it be possible to flag a member profile, and have a similar pop-up appear that allows one to send details to the moderator team? And from there, if after a review the mods communicate with the member in question and make a determination of the validity of the underlying complaint, and if the determination is that the complaint is valid, flag the members profile as having unfulfilled obligations? Maybe shade the box on the left of posts that indicate username, avatar, and other info such as post counts, location, and join date in yellow or light red, indicating there are unresolved issues related to prior commitments? I know there are any number of reasons why life can change on you unexpectedly, and so would look for something more low key than a "wall of shame". I do feel, though, that if a person can't meet past commitments, they should be flagged as a warning to other members to avoid entering into additional trades/transactions until past commitments have been satisfactorily resolved. Just my three cents worth.


----------



## lwalden

Texatdurango said:


> skiprat said:
> 
> 
> 
> Group 10. Crap stirrer
> 
> ..and not the first time either, :wink:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But I prefer to think of myself as "Thought/action provoker" rather than stirrer.
Click to expand...


To-may-to, To-mah-to, Po-tay-to, Po-tah-to.... Crap stirrer, Thought/action provoker..... whatever you want to call it, you're in group 10 as well, George!!:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:


----------



## Texatdurango

lwalden said:


> ......To-may-to, To-mah-to, Po-tay-to, Po-tah-to.... Crap stirrer, Thought/action provoker..... whatever you want to call it, you're in group 10 as well, George!!:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:


 
Gee, I was just kidding, do you really think I'm in group 10?   I thought I was just your average run-of-the-mill plain ole number eight! :wink:


----------



## JerrySambrook

Ed,
   I will never say I am even-handed, but a welch is a welch (No disrepect to most of the people from Wales).  Ask any service member if negative reinforcement works ON OCCASION.



ed4copies said:


> JerrySambrook said:
> 
> 
> 
> Andrew (Maxwell_Smart007),
> On occasion, negative reinforcement is a viable and constructive option.
> 
> We seem to let it be a way of life against vendors here on many occasoiins, so why should not a person be able to "call out" a fellow member here, when the same circumstance arise?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jerry, my friend, you know not everybody is as "even-handed" as you (oh most moderated member:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin.  If we "call out" people on the forum, the result will be a separation of the membership into "camp A" and "Camp B", and the great fight ensues!!
> 
> Then, about four days later, the "dead horse" cartoon arrives and the sides go back to their daily jobs---laying in wait for the next opportunity to "get that no good SOB (depending on whether you were camp A or B, it could be SOA)"
> 
> Let's TRY to avoid that----as Alice has done here, thank you for the very appropriate and genteel approach, Alice!!
> 
> (but do let Mike know who is the offender, please)
Click to expand...


----------



## Ligget

I vote for a list too, how many of us have sent a little box of goodies to another IAP member as a surprise, I would hate to be sending one to a member who has deliberately duped another member!


----------



## MesquiteMan

OK Guys, I just got home from a long day of trimming a house I have under construction.  The proper way of dealing with this is to report it to me or Jeff.  If it is an official IAP activity, then report it to Mike.

Believe me, we do take these things seriously and have taken action many times in the past that no one was aware of.  Alice contacted me about a problem many months ago and I sent the person a PM.  I did not hear back from Alice so I assumed it had been taken care of.  I am not sure if this is the same person/situation or a different one.  Alice, if it is the same person, please let me know via PM and send me the name again as well as any PMs you may have.  I will take it from there.

As for others...if you have gotten the short end of the stick, PLEASE let me know.  We can't fix something if we are not aware of it!  We have dealt or attempted to deal with any and all issues that have been brought to our attention.

Like said above, transactions are between members so there is nothing we can do about the transaction but I guarantee you, if it is not rectified, the offending person be ejected from the site.  We have done it before and will not hesitate to do it again.  We already have provisions in the TOS and AUP to handle this and do not need any new rules.

As for a list, that isn't happening!  (that is, unless Jeff decides to do it!)


----------



## Texatdurango

MesquiteMan said:


> .....As for a list, that isn't happening! (that is, unless Jeff decides to do it!)


 
Party Pooper!


----------



## IPD_Mrs

Texatdurango said:


> MesquiteMan said:
> 
> 
> 
> .....As for a list, that isn't happening! (that is, unless Jeff decides to do it!)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Party Pooper!
Click to expand...

 
I guess everyone with a pitch fork and torch has to go home now. 


On a serious note:
IAP is one of the few Internet forums that has evolved into an adoptive family of sorts.  This would explain why people take it to heart when one of our own gets taken advantage of.  While this is a good thing, at times many of us (us means me too) tend to think with our hearts and not our heads.

Alice, please PM me your address.  I cannot replace 300 blanks, but I can soften the blow and maybe restore some of your faith in the members here.  The way you handled yourself expresses class and that deserves to be recognized.


----------



## terryf

has anyone evere considered the postal system?

I have bought and traded on quite a number of occasions and at least 50% never made it to my door.

Yes, granted, I live in a country where it is the norm to pilfer through others post and help yourself but even if it was the exception to the rule, it must happen other places too. 

Perhaps I am being stupid and in fact I too have been duped on more than one occasion but I dont believe this to be the case.

So in your axe murder trials you have going on here, spare a thought for the guy that says he has sent it for he may telling the truth.



"ya'll will be given a fair trial and hanged in the mornin!"


----------



## Smitty37

*Popeye*



ctubbs said:


> I was born a 4 and never grew out of it.  Come to think of, I never want to grow out of group 4.  "I am what I am, and that's all that I am."  Who remembers that?
> Charles


Popeye does....also "I fights to the finisch cuz I eats me spinich"


----------



## Texatdurango

terryf said:


> ......So in your axe murder trials you have going on here, *spare a thought for the guy that says he has sent it for he may telling the truth*.
> 
> "ya'll will be given a fair trial and hanged in the mornin!"


 
See, that's what's good about the plan we were discussing. Getting something lost in the mail once... that's understandable IF the problem is communicated, twice.... well, I don't know, let's watch this guy, three complaints from three different people.......Name on the wall for all to see!

But it looks like it's not going to happen but at least the bad guys know we're on to them now so bad guys be vewy vewy careful who you try to pull one over on!:tongue:


----------



## Smitty37

*Most are honest*

I think most are honest which is why my business has an unconditional return policy and I usually replace missing parts with a whole new kit.  But, I do occasionally get stiffed, it's upsetting but that's life.  All I can do is make sure that I never stiff anyone else.


----------



## el_d

Smitty37 said:


> But, I do occasionally get stiffed, it's upsetting but that's life.  All I can do is make sure that I never stiff anyone else.



So it goes to show. be the stiffer, not the stiffie.  :biggrin:......

No wait.. Be the stiffie.....:wink:

Great people here.


----------



## Daniel

I have had plenty of things go bad (group buys) in one way or another. One of them drug on for months. Not one time did I have anyone contact me and say "Hey are you ever going to send my stuff"? I believe there is one reason for it. Communication, just stay in contact and let people know what is going on. They get behind you and even jump in and give a helping hand. I also agree with George. There has been a lot done on this group to foster trust, their are those that will take advantage of it. Time to be as good at protecting ourselves as we are at helping others. Otherwise the trust will simply get stuffed back in it's nice safe spot and everyone will start requiring shipping confirmation and declared values on trades. I woudl hate to see it come to that. This group is something special.


----------



## elody21

I e-mailed Curtis with the persons name. I did find out that someone else had the same problem with one sided trade and I believe the person has been banned from the site earlier. I see now I should have said something to Curtis or Jeff before. I guess I just kept thinking the person was having some problem and couldn't send anything.
I love this site and the persons here and find it troubling that someone would invade our space for something like this.
Several persons have offered to send me something. I find this sooooooooo sweet but I am fine and the thread wasn't about not getting something but more about someone cheating me.
Like I said it is disturbing. If it happens ever again I will bring it to Curtis right away, but I am still going to trust first.
Thanks everyone for the support and feedback
Alice


----------



## hunter-27

terryf said:


> has anyone evere considered the postal system?
> 
> I have bought and traded on quite a number of occasions and at least 50% never made it to my door.
> 
> Yes, granted, I live in a country where it is the norm to pilfer through others post and help yourself but even if it was the exception to the rule, it must happen other places too.
> 
> Perhaps I am being stupid and in fact I too have been duped on more than one occasion but I dont believe this to be the case.
> 
> So in your axe murder trials you have going on here, spare a thought for the guy that says he has sent it for he may telling the truth.
> 
> 
> 
> "ya'll will be given a fair trial and hanged in the mornin!"


I just want to add this.  I recently did a trade in which the good ole USPS managed to loose 1/2 of.  I received my package but my swap partner did not.  Well guess what?  My partner is not upset.  You know why?  The answer is because when contacted by him about it, I did what was right, and paid for the item I received.  Now, in this case, I did insure the item and that process is ongoing (fun as it is) so even though the process is a PITA I will eventually get close to back to square.  My point of this is simply this.  If you have legit reasons for "stuff" happening, you simply stay in communication and get it fixed.  Mistakes do happen.  Sometimes it just happens.  This is the exception and should not happen often 9especially with the same person).  I would fully support a process being in place where a 3rd party (IAP admin or such) helps research the transaction, assists in its resolution, and for those that are found to have not been on the up and up, especially for repeat "situations", should be flagged in some way so until the outstanding issue is resolved, they probably should not continue trading/selling other stuff with other members.  Now I know it has been said that private transactions between members are not really IAP issues.  Well in fact, if the members are interacting through the use of the forum, it is in fact an IAP concern.  I do not feel there needs to be a public "black list" for each and every "trade gone bad", but perhaps a policy governing how these members are to respond to and correct these situations might need to be considered.  I know there have been members "BANNED" in the past, this will most likely happen again, such is how it goes.  In some cases perhaps such a policy would have, upon the first occurrence, put the member on notice that this is not the place for this kind of activity and if they want to continue to benefit from the group they should understand they are going to be held accountable for handling themselves appropriately.  This could lead them to become a valued member of the group or alternately, they would move on, knowing they would be watched too closely to "pull" anything else. This is all of course, just my opinion.  I'm sure others may feel differently.


----------



## keithkarl2007

Well one thing everyone can be sure of, Radams won't be duping anyone anymore. I don't know how many times he was on the verge of being banned and it finally happened. I suffered a huge loss but as said before I'm not going to be sceptical about future trades.


----------



## MesquiteMan

As Alice said, the person she had a problem with is no longer a member at IAP.  This person was banned about 6 month ago and unfortunately, Alice may have been caught in the crossfire.  I have offered to make her whole on behalf of IAP due to the situation.


----------



## MesquiteMan

hunter-27 said:


> I would fully support a process being in place where a 3rd party (IAP admin or such) helps research the transaction, assists in its resolution, and for those that are found to have not been on the up and up, especially for repeat "situations", should be flagged in some way so until the outstanding issue is resolved, they probably should not continue trading/selling other stuff with other members.



Landon,  This already happens pretty much as you "suggested".  When we are notified of a classifieds issue that is not rectified, we contact the person and ask for their side of the issue.  We then give them XX amount of time to make it right and tell them they are no longer allowed to use ANY of the classifieds section including trades and giveaways until the situation is rectified.  We do not ban them until it is determined that they are just NOT going to come through and have no intentions of honoring their commitments.  WE WILL NOT tolerate dishonest business practices.


----------



## hunter-27

MesquiteMan said:


> hunter-27 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would fully support a process being in place where a 3rd party (IAP admin or such) helps research the transaction, assists in its resolution, and for those that are found to have not been on the up and up, especially for repeat "situations", should be flagged in some way so until the outstanding issue is resolved, they probably should not continue trading/selling other stuff with other members.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Landon,  This already happens pretty much as you "suggested".  When we are notified of a classifieds issue that is not rectified, we contact the person and ask for their side of the issue.  We then give them XX amount of time to make it right and tell them they are no longer allowed to use ANY of the classifieds section including trades and giveaways until the situation is rectified.  We do not ban them until it is determined that they are just NOT going to come through and have no intentions of honoring their commitments.  WE WILL NOT tolerate dishonest business practices.
Click to expand...

Agreed, maybe if this policy were made more readily open and obvious to all, including new members that may not know about it at all.  Everyone then would know exactly what standard we expect and exactly what procedure to follow to rectify and given situation.  Not to add to the moderator duties further, if there were a "screening process" to help the lines of communication get established, then  perhaps the admin would only need to be used in extreme cases.  I think being more open about the standard we expect, might quiet these types of issues some.  Just a couple thoughts.  I have said my piece, thanks for listening (reading).


----------



## glycerine

keithkarl2007 said:


> Good luck with it Alice. I traded stuff with RAdams and never received anything back. He is banned now so there is no way to contact him. I hope whoever it was that mistreated you is still active.


 
Can you still use the "send message via email" option instead of PM, does that still work when someone is banned?


----------



## glycerine

An "official" list might not be created, but someone could always mosey on over and create a new thread with a few member names posted in it!


----------



## keithkarl2007

No he is no longer on the board so he can't be Pm,d. I can't find the messages we exchanged, they seem to have disappeared  but Alice has kindly sent me his postal address to contact him.


----------



## omb76

Would a feedback rating like what is used on ebay work?  That rating could be displayed next to the users id with number of combined transactions both as a buyer and seller. It would provide some quick info as to how others transactions have gone.  Depending on how labor intensive it would be maybe even provide a space in the user profile for a short comment on how your transaction went.  This would lessen the burden on the management team I would think as it would give more info to the members when dealing with folks that we may not be that familiar with.


----------



## glycerine

keithkarl2007 said:


> No he is no longer on the board so he can't be Pm,d. I can't find the messages we exchanged, they seem to have disappeared but Alice has kindly sent me his postal address to contact him.


 
If you do a search on his name, then find a post of his, you can click on his name and there should be a "send email to RAdams" option also...

Also, I'm not making any excuses for him, but I know that around the time he left the forum/got banned, his daughter wasn't doing well.  She has some form of brain cancer.  I don't know how she is lately or if she's even still here, but I know he's been going through alot, so just keep that in mind when you contact him.


----------



## keithkarl2007

I guess but I still find it odd that both myself and Alice were duped around the same time and only 2-3 days apart. Anyway, nothing can be done. I was going to write to him but I don't think I'll waste any more time on it. Feel bad enough having wasted over $150 on him.


----------



## mikeschurer

Would a moderated list of incomplete trades be a possibility.  To get on the list an email would have to be sent to the moderator copied to the non completer.  It would then be up to the moderator to decide if they should be publically listed depending on how many disputes involved or other crireria.

Mike the Pipe in Pangbourne by the Thames


----------



## keithkarl2007

I guess i should let it go but it appears more than myself and Alice were duped by Radams. He is no longer here so if any other member had the same happen please speak up. I just want to know how many people were affected and what if anything could have been done to prevent it.


----------



## Smitty37

*Nope*



omb76 said:


> Would a feedback rating like what is used on ebay work? That rating could be displayed next to the users id with number of combined transactions both as a buyer and seller. It would provide some quick info as to how others transactions have gone. Depending on how labor intensive it would be maybe even provide a space in the user profile for a short comment on how your transaction went. This would lessen the burden on the management team I would think as it would give more info to the members when dealing with folks that we may not be that familiar with.


 
Feedback like ebay's is useless and has no meaning what-so-ever.  While buyers can leave negative feedback for sellers the sellers can not leave negative feedback for buyers.  I think that buyer's default about twice or three times as often as sellers there if for no other reason the buyer has recourse through PayPal and eBay.  Usually if a buyer defaults the seller loses no more than his listing fee.


----------



## Smitty37

*Hmmmm*



keithkarl2007 said:


> I guess i should let it go but it appears more than myself and Alice were duped by Radams. He is no longer here so if any other member had the same happen please speak up. I just want to know how many people were affected and what if anything could have been done to prevent it.


 
As I recollect you must have been snookered about the time he was having a lot of problems and arguments with the moderators about a number of other things as well. Just before he left (I knew he left but didn't know he was banned) it seems like there were a lot of complaints from him about how he was being treated.


----------



## keithkarl2007

I know and maybe if he had been banned when they were going to first fewer people would have fallen victim.


----------



## Sylvanite

If I'm surprised at all, it's not that there are unscrupulous people out there, but that so many are so honest.  The IAP is one of the best groups of people I've ever dealt with.

Long ago, at a Miami craft show, I saw a piece of handpainted cracked-glaze pottery that I really liked.  The price was pretty high, but my wife and I kept being drawn back to it.  Eventually, we decided to buy it after all but when we went back it had already been sold.  I described the piece to the artist, who offered to make me a similar piece.  Amazingly, he didn't want any up front money.  Instead, he shipped the completed jar to me for approval before payment.

I aspire to that level of customer service in my dealings.

Regards,
Eric


----------



## kinggabby

It seems that even if someone is banned you can still email and receive emails via IAP. I had befriended RAdams and he is still showing on my friends list and I clicked on his profile info and looks as if I could still contact him VIA this site.


----------



## omb76

Smitty37 said:


> omb76 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Would a feedback rating like what is used on ebay work? That rating could be displayed next to the users id with number of combined transactions both as a buyer and seller. It would provide some quick info as to how others transactions have gone. Depending on how labor intensive it would be maybe even provide a space in the user profile for a short comment on how your transaction went. This would lessen the burden on the management team I would think as it would give more info to the members when dealing with folks that we may not be that familiar with.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Feedback like ebay's is useless and has no meaning what-so-ever. While buyers can leave negative feedback for sellers the sellers can not leave negative feedback for buyers. I think that buyer's default about twice or three times as often as sellers there if for no other reason the buyer has recourse through PayPal and eBay. Usually if a buyer defaults the seller loses no more than his listing fee.
Click to expand...

 
The nice thing about being our own site is that we can modify it the way we want and to what would work best for us.  There's no reason that sellers shouldn't be able to leave feedback for the buyers either.  The IAP is a much smaller organization than ebay so the feedback system would have more meaning here.  It's a place to start and is much better than a public flogging would be.  That only creates negative feelings which are quite contagious.  There is no sure fire way to keep the bad out, it's a part of life, however we can learn to adapt and change the way we do things to minimize our exposure to it. Again, this is just an idea that I think would be beneficial as it's our responsibility as members to put out ideas and not just complain to our management team and expect them to fix it.   We need to help make this site what we want it to be.


----------



## Andrew_K99

I like the idea about feedback like eBay, although the software costs would probably be crazy and that's even if vbulletin could support it.

I don't envy the mods with this type of discussion because the most they can really do is ban people and that may be with hearsay information. It could add a lot of work to a volunteer position.

AK


----------



## kinggabby

Well I just found out that I am a member of this duping party and did not know it. I actually pushed to have people try and help this person when we all thought he had a sick daughter. So not only did I push to "help" him I also sent a money order to assist. For my part I am truly sorry. Had I have known about his person I would not have done my part. I hope everyone forgives me.


----------



## keithkarl2007

Nobody should feel they are responsible for these things. The last thing I'm going to add to this is "What goes around comes around!"


----------



## MesquiteMan

Folks, let's please return the discussion to a more general discussion regarding people who do not fulfill their obligations.  It is not a good idea to be lynching a person who is no longer a member here and can not defend themselves.

Thank you.

Curtis O. Seebeck
IAP Head Moderator


----------



## keithkarl2007

When i emailed him he didn't even reply so I doubt he'd stick around to even try and defend himself.


----------



## KenV

Thanks Curtis --  Many are caught up in the elusive "what is right" and "what is fair".

 I enter into each of the different contributions, trades, exchanges, etc with the hope that it will all work out and a firm expectation that if it does not, that is one of those costs in life.   I tend not to go back to the same well again if the water was bad, but neither to I expect to put a Red "P" on the breast on someone named Hester.

I think we do better than the normal population here at IAP -- but there are no character references required to join this "motley crew" of creative souls.


----------



## Texatdurango

Reading several of these posts, the focus seems to be on "trades".  I think the sentiments should spread out to anyone doing unsavory things on the forum, whether it be out-and-out fraud, deliberately misrepresenting items being sold, to welching on deals.


----------



## kinggabby

MesquiteMan said:


> Folks, let's please return the discussion to a more general discussion regarding people who do not fulfill their obligations.  It is not a good idea to be lynching a person who is no longer a member here and can not defend themselves.
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> Curtis O. Seebeck
> IAP Head Moderator




Your right I am sorry. Forgive me for stirring up things. That was not my intentions.


----------



## MesquiteMan

Texatdurango said:


> Reading several of these posts, the focus seems to be on "trades".  I think the sentiments should spread out to anyone doing unsavory things on the forum, whether it be out-and-out fraud, deliberately misrepresenting items being sold, to welching on deals.



George, the same thing applies to anyone that is being disreputable.  Of course, the burden of proof becomes an issue but if it can indeed be proven, then we will deal with it.


----------



## jeff

This is a great thread. Thanks to Alice for opening a great discussion!

I am in favor of identifying bad apples, after thorough investigation and discussion. I believe that we can come up with ways to separate people with truly extenuating circumstances who can't follow through on their commitments from the real crooks, con-artists, and cheaters.

I've just opened a discussion with the management team on this topic and thrown out a few ideas for discussion. I think we can come up with something that will strengthen our community.


----------



## Dalecamino

jeff said:


> This is a great thread. Thanks to Alice for opening a great discussion!
> 
> I am in favor of identifying bad apples, after thorough investigation and discussion. I believe that we can come up with ways to separate people with truly extenuating circumstances who can't follow through on their commitments from the real crooks, con-artists, and cheaters.
> 
> I've just opened a discussion with the management team on this topic and thrown out a few ideas for discussion. I think we can come up with something that will strengthen our community.


 This is really good news. Thanks for letting us know.


----------



## keithkarl2007

I know there may be small cases where 1 or 2 trades weren't fulfilled, but one person in particular was a true con-artist and conned possibly up to 30 members fraudulently. Would  a matter that severe need more than investigation from the forum moderators?


----------



## DocStram

*The Weasel List*



Texatdurango said:


> I realize that there are many liberal thinking folks on this forum that normally would bend over backwards WAY more than I ever would in instances like this but it's time we stop being silent victoms and say enough is enough, not everyone deserves a dozen chances to do the right thing.  Why should a decent person like Alice have to go through this nonsense?  Here is my feeling on the subject.
> 
> I think a "STICKY" thread needs to be in place in the classified forums as well as the casual converstation forum.  When a person such as described above is mentioned to a moderator, then the moderator could notify them and demand immediate action or to at least hear their side of the story.  If satisfied that their name warrants being added to an *"Unsavory individuals with low moral character"* list, then so be it!  The crooks hanging around the forum are not going to identify themselves, it's up to us to help them out.
> 
> I think it's high time that these characters are no longer allowed to prey on members with, up until now, total impunity!
> 
> Go get 'em moderator team, start 2011 off with a good idea!




I reckon that I'm one of those "liberal thinking folks" that my friend George is referring to.  In my five years as a member, I have had only one experience where I was shafted by another member.  He still comes around and he knows who he is.  I wrote to him at least three times and complained.  I didn't bother to involve the mods since I knew that Jeff would probably just try to make it up out of his own pocket.  So, I let it go.

On the other hand, over the past five years, there have been plenty of times when another member has done something really special for me.  Just by coincidence, one of those special things happened to me this evening. 

As I've been thinking about George's suggestions . . . . I thought to myself . . .  we never hesitate to publicly think the "do gooders" . . .  then why shouldn't we publicly identify the "weasels"?  

I'm with George on this one.  When a member does something unscrupulous, report it to the mods . . .  let them make the call.   Then have them post the name of the weasel.  Come to think of it, a good title for the thread might be "The Weasel List".


----------



## jttheclockman

For some reason I just can not wrap my head around this. First let me say all the trading I see done here and the buying from one another I have not recalled there being an instance of scams. Maybe because they have been handled behind the scenes is the reason. I know I am in the middle of getting a thank you package together for someone who helped me with my logo some time ago and i have been lax with this but I will be sending in the next day or two. He has told me he wants nothing but i don't feel right. 

I guess that is my point. How can someone feel right about taking advantage of people they became friends with here. I know there are some that can get on ones nerves and maybe I am one to some also but to take this out on someone or someone else by doing things that are being mentioned is unscrupulous to say the least. I just can not wrap my head around this concept. many times you read of good will gestures here because of hardships and if this is the case when someone wants to make a trade then just mention it to the person you are trading with and maybe something else can be worked out. But to screw over individuals just for the sake of doing it takes some moxy to say the least. I am not sure any list would deter this individual but it would warn others and maybe safe them from the same scam. Banning is the way to go and 2 chances is all I would give. 

It is a little mindboggling that someone would come to a site and do things like this. I must be living in a different world.


----------



## GoodTurns

MesquiteMan said:


> ..... then we will deal with it.



you grab the pitchforks, I've got the torches!

Very interesting thread and a pretty good job on staying on course!  A very restrained airing of a grievance, followed by sympathy and commiseration, a lynch mob and now a return to the search for an answer.  I expect something good and appropriate will come from it!

I am a buyer, seller, giver and trader here.  As George said, swaps seem to be a focal point.  My goal whenever I "swap" is to make sure that my trading partner gets the best of the deal.  I may not have been successful every time, but I hope I have not disappointed either!  I have only been ******* once, and it was by one of our better known former members.

A rating system of some sort might work, but needs to be tempered with verifiable comments when selecting a "negative" rating.  A "swap" that meets the stated criteria of, say a blank swap, should not get a negative rating because the receiver does not like the blanks received.  The sender may have sent some of their very best blanks in that box!  Expectations and perceived value will always be a factor in these trades.  (of course, if they just plain don't send the box....get the torches!)


----------



## airrat

First I just want to say this is a great site full of great people.    Sadly some take advantage of that it seems.   

People here have big hearts.   I found that out first hand a few years ago and I will not forget that.   My time here lessened due to having to work alot of extra hours to pay bills and I hope no one ever took that as anything negative.   We still have a huge amount of bills now but we are doing better so I can spend some time to myself finally.

I have been involved in a couple swaps with other members.  I hope they were as happy as I was with them.    

If I can help with elody with making up for the loss I will glady put something together for her and send it off.


----------



## Smitty37

*Most settle*

Purchases and trades are not the same - a purchase is an exchange of money for goods and a trade is barter in which both parties reach an agreement that item A from trader A is worth the same as item B from trader B.  Purchases are pretty straight forward - If I sell you something and you've paid for it, I owe it to you.  If you don't like it, return it and get your money back - Unless --- it was clearly sold to you "as is" and possible problems described.

In a trade there are only two things where a party has a complaint 1) They never received the item. and, 2) the item they received is not the item they bartered for.  If you don't like the item you have no recourse unless it was misrepresented by posting a picture of something else or describing the item as something it is not.  If you knowingly take in trade a goat for a horse you have no complaint when you have to walk home.

So when thinking about handling problems here you need to think in terms of vendor/buyer, individual seller/buyer and trader/trader and how they are handled in my mind should not necessarily be the same.


----------



## Ankrom Exotics

*Feedback*

I suppose there is already a "feedback" method available..... at least as far as vendors are concerned. The 'Vendors' subforum in the "Product Testing and Reviews" forum is available to post feedback, reviews and comments.  

http://www.penturners.org/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=100


----------



## GaryMGg

jeff said:


> This is a great thread. Thanks to Alice for opening a great discussion!
> 
> I am in favor of identifying bad apples, after thorough investigation and discussion. I believe that we can come up with ways to separate people with truly extenuating circumstances who can't follow through on their commitments from the real crooks, con-artists, and cheaters.
> 
> I've just opened a discussion with the management team on this topic and thrown out a few ideas for discussion. I think we can come up with something that will strengthen our community.


 
I'm of the opinion this is necessary and proper.
Having said that, I also think this is the wonderful thing about the IAP.
Irrespective of what each of us believes, at some point a definitive answer comes forth and whatever we think of the decision,
we know what it is and who owns it.
Thanks Mr. NASA.  :biggrin:


----------



## corian king

Hello All!!!
I don't usually get involved in these things but this time I will.

There are some really great people here that I have had the pleasure of meeting and dealing with.

I have seen a couple that I had issues with.but I just keep my mouth closed.

I do think that when someone does others wrong their name should be put on a list for the rest of us to see so we don't get hurt by the same person.

Maybe if we had a list like that people would be less likely to do someone else wrong knowing they were going to be put on the (Bad apples list)

I mean you know if we get done wrong by say woodcraft or penn state or one of the others we don't hesitate to tell each other about that.

Thanks for at least letting me say how I feel.
And a million thanks for the majority of great people and never ending knowledge!
JIM


----------



## MesquiteMan

corian king said:


> Hello All!!!
> I don't usually get involved in these things but this time I will.
> 
> There are some really great people here that I have had the pleasure of meeting and dealing with.
> 
> I have seen a couple that I had issues with.but I just keep my mouth closed.
> 
> I do think that when someone does others wrong their name should be put on a list for the rest of us to see so we don't get hurt by the same person.
> 
> Maybe if we had a list like that people would be less likely to do someone else wrong knowing they were going to be put on the (Bad apples list)
> 
> I mean you know if we get done wrong by say woodcraft or penn state or one of the others we don't hesitate to tell each other about that.
> 
> Thanks for at least letting me say how I feel.
> And a million thanks for the majority of great people and never ending knowledge!
> JIM



You can already do that now.  It is called the Vendor Review section as Pat mentions above.  There is nothing that prevents folks from stepping up and posting a negative review of a vendor.


----------



## terryf

GaryMGg said:


> .
> Thanks Mr. NASA. :biggrin:


 

Now that you mention it, this explains why the space program has slowed over the past 7 years; Jeffs been running turning classes in the basement of the silo's :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:


----------



## ctubbs

*OOPS*



terryf said:


> GaryMGg said:
> 
> 
> 
> .
> Thanks Mr. NASA. :biggrin:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now that you mention it, this explains why the space program has slowed over the past 7 years; Jeffs been running turning classes in the basement of the silo's :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:
Click to expand...


_ssssshhh, that wasn't supposed to get out_.:foot-in-mouth:


----------



## greeneyedblackcat

Got burned myself on one of my custom built pens, not gonna mention any names but she is a princess here at the IAP. One sided trades really stink if your on the wrong side of them


----------



## DocStram

. . . and now things are going to get interesting.  It's one thing to point out the name of an unscrupulous weasel who blatantly fleeces others with a "pay now - play later" plan . . . . but a whole other matter when a well respected member is accused of not following through on a "pen for pen" trade. 

Whatever the circumstances, this is a perfect example of why an IAP member, regardless of their status, should be treated as innocent until the mods gather the necessary information.  

However, if an IAP member is found guilty of cheating, shortchanging, or scamming others . . . then the mods have the responsibility of identifying the weasel to all.  

And, if an accused member is found innocent, then appropriate action should be taken against those who smear another's name.

Let the parties involved, under the mods' direction, work this out . . .  and every one else sit tight.  Just my two cents.


----------



## mbroberg

greeneyedblackcat said:


> Got burned myself on one of my custom built pens, not gonna mention any names but she is a princess here at the IAP. One sided trades really stink if your on the wrong side of them


 
We don't know what the story is, but I'll bet there is more to it then "I got burned".  And what was the point of not using her name if your going to front her out anyway?


----------



## nava1uni

I think that this is beginning to get off track of the original comment.  I see it becoming something that should be settled or discussed off line.  Most of the discussion about ways to allow all to see if someone if scamming or not honoring a commitment have validity, but turning personal should be kept personal or dealt with by the moderators, no matter what individuals are involved.


----------



## jttheclockman

greeneyedblackcat said:


> Got burned myself on one of my custom built pens, not gonna mention any names but she is a princess here at the IAP. One sided trades really stink if your on the wrong side of them


 

Now I am sure there is a bigger story behind that comment for sure. I think you need to either rectify it or clean it up. Not good.


----------



## DocStram

My guess is that there are two people who have knowledge of what happened . . .  one is Jim and the other Dawn. I think this is best left up to the two parties involved, and the mods, to work out.  Once the dust has settled, then the whole story should be told.  Until then, we all need to cool our jets.  If you get my drift.


----------



## alphageek

greeneyedblackcat said:


> Got burned myself on one of my custom built pens, not gonna mention any names but she is a princess here at the IAP. One sided trades really stink if your on the wrong side of them



Broad comments like this are not acceptable... I'm going to request that Curtis contact you for more information.   You said you're not going to mention names, then you put a name that implies a certain person. 

Per the AUP: "No personal attacks. Criticize ideas, not people. Flaming will not be tolerated. Broad, negative statements about individuals or businesses are not permitted."



			
				MesquiteMan;1183148
As for others...if you have gotten the short end of the stick said:
			
		

> This is the better action to take.  For anyone else, please follow this action so both sides of the issue can be looked into.
> 
> Dean Charlier
> Assistant Moderator


----------



## Jim in Oakville

greeneyedblackcat said:


> Got burned myself on one of my custom built pens, not gonna mention any names but she is a princess here at the IAP. One sided trades really stink if your on the wrong side of them



This is uncalled for..


----------



## OLDMAN5050

probably more to the story than being told......... let us not get to badmouthing folk


----------



## Texatdurango

New visitors, Welcome to the IAP........ 2011 version! We're not just pen turners anymore! :frown:


----------



## greeneyedblackcat

alphageek said:


> greeneyedblackcat said:
> 
> 
> 
> Got burned myself on one of my custom built pens, not gonna mention any names but she is a princess here at the IAP. One sided trades really stink if your on the wrong side of them
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Broad comments like this are not acceptable... I'm going to request that Curtis contact you for more information. You said you're not going to mention names, then you put a name that implies a certain person.
> 
> Per the AUP: "No personal attacks. Criticize ideas, not people. Flaming will not be tolerated. Broad, negative statements about individuals or businesses are not permitted."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MesquiteMan;1183148
> As for others...if you have gotten the short end of the stick said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is the better action to take. For anyone else, please follow this action so both sides of the issue can be looked into.
> 
> Dean Charlier
> Assistant Moderator
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I assume you have the ability to check the Pm's between myself and the other party involved, I think you should do so before chosing sides.
Click to expand...


----------



## Jim in Oakville

greeneyedblackcat said:


> alphageek said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> greeneyedblackcat said:
> 
> 
> 
> Got burned myself on one of my custom built pens, not gonna mention any names but she is a princess here at the IAP. One sided trades really stink if your on the wrong side of them
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Broad comments like this are not acceptable... I'm going to request that Curtis contact you for more information. You said you're not going to mention names, then you put a name that implies a certain person.
> 
> Per the AUP: "No personal attacks. Criticize ideas, not people. Flaming will not be tolerated. Broad, negative statements about individuals or businesses are not permitted."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MesquiteMan;1183148
> As for others...if you have gotten the short end of the stick said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is the better action to take. For anyone else, please follow this action so both sides of the issue can be looked into.
> 
> Dean Charlier
> Assistant Moderator
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I assume you have the ability to check the Pm's between myself and the other party involved, I think you should do so before chosing sides.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Frankly I don't care what is said in a PM, I do expect that members of IAP will behave in a mature and civil manner, publicly airing laundry unless it effects all of us to me, is uncalled for.  Damaging two people's reputation for the sake of being right, is it really worth it?
Click to expand...


----------



## airrat

Wow :-(


----------



## MesquiteMan

greeneyedblackcat said:


> I assume you have the ability to check the Pm's between myself and the other party involved, I think you should do so before chosing sides.



You have assumed wrong!  We DO NOT have the ability to read PMs.  even Jeff, the owner of IAP, does not have that ability.  PM's are just that, PRIVATE.


----------



## alphageek

greeneyedblackcat said:


> I assume you have the ability to check the Pm's between myself and the other party involved, I think you should do so before chosing sides.



Jim, 

I would like to point out that you made 2 assumptions.  Curtis already explained one.   I'll explain the other.  You assumed that I picked sides.   If you read my reply - you will see that I did not.   There was not enough information to pick sides and thus the reason I posted so that it could be seen that Curtis was notified.   

For those still reading, I will repeat again... If you get the short end of something here on IAP, please start with Curtis in PM -- public postings can cause more grief to all involved.   

Dean Charlier
Assistant moderator


----------



## kinggabby

I feel like the horse is dead but it is still being kicked. Most people who have done someone wrong ( unless it was accidental ) won't admit it which is why we have mods.


----------



## PR_Princess

OK before this escalates any further, let me help clear the air.

Some time ago Jim and I had a discussion about him making a pen. It was not for me, but another member here. Call it a “random act of kindness” if you will. 

I asked Jim for a dollar value, but Jim also thinking that it was a good idea, said that he would be happy with  just a pen in trade... A painted pen. But the pen that he wanted also required the co-operation of another IAP member in making a rather complicated blank.  Needless to say there were delays (of which Jim was aware). I also offered to send him an additional pen as I felt that anything I did was nowhere on par.  After sometime, I did finally get the blank I needed – but it came right in the middle of the Christmas rush. I put it aside to paint after the holidays, but then forgot it.  

I have not heard from Jim since before I got the blank. Until he posted on the forum yesterday. At which point I immediately sent him a PM with my apologies . After arriving home, I did find the blank (still in the original mailing box) along with the other pen. I will be finishing the blank this week and sending it along.

Yes, without a doubt this should have been done long ago. That is my fault, and I am truly sorry. But, a simple PM or email would have generated the same response. 

Sorry to “disturb the peace”, and thanks to the many folks that have sent PM’s to tell me of this thread. Nice to have friends.


----------



## jttheclockman

And here is another example that shoud not have even made the airwaves here. A simple PM or an email would have solved the whole thing. Things happen. I mentioned I just sent a person some blanks for doing the logo work for me some time ago. With all the bad weather we had through the winter I was unable to get to the shop to do any work. I just sent them to him now and he received them with pleasure. I explained I did not forget him but i was busy. These things do happen. 


If there happens to be a wall of shame or whatever you call it the names that go up there better be legit and for good reason. Slander is not a good thing to defend. Be careful.


----------



## Jim in Oakville

PR_Princess said:


> OK before this escalates any further, let me help clear the air.
> 
> Some time ago Jim and I had a discussion about him making a pen. It was not for me, but another member here. Call it a “random act of kindness” if you will.
> 
> I asked Jim for a dollar value, but Jim also thinking that it was a good idea, said that he would be happy with  just a pen in trade... A painted pen. But the pen that he wanted also required the co-operation of another IAP member in making a rather complicated blank.  Needless to say there were delays (of which Jim was aware). I also offered to send him an additional pen as I felt that anything I did was nowhere on par.  After sometime, I did finally get the blank I needed – but it came right in the middle of the Christmas rush. I put it aside to paint after the holidays, but then forgot it.
> 
> I have not heard from Jim since before I got the blank. Until he posted on the forum yesterday. At which point I immediately sent him a PM with my apologies . After arriving home, I did find the blank (still in the original mailing box) along with the other pen. I will be finishing the blank this week and sending it along.
> 
> Yes, without a doubt this should have been done long ago. That is my fault, and I am truly sorry. But, a simple PM or email would have generated the same response.
> 
> Sorry to “disturb the peace”, and thanks to the many folks that have sent PM’s to tell me of this thread. Nice to have friends.



Thank You Dawn,

Clarity and an forgiving heart go a long way here.  I hope that both you and Jim can move past this and get back to being pen friends.  We all make mistakes, errors etc, heavens I do daily, Just ask Eileen my wife!   We all should learn something here and I hope it is that if we are not clear on something, send a PM, pick up the phone or send an email, working things out one on one works to clear of difficulties and avoid unneeded complications in communications.

My best to both you Dawn and Jim, I have confidence that you both are on the right track now.


----------



## snyiper

Really all this over a pen? We have the ability to come online and call someone out but we cant call them or send a PM to see if there is a legit reason for any delay? This is the exact reason we should not have any type of public wall of shame. 13 pages of reading to find out it was a simple out of sight out of mind issue very easy to understand. I think we are sometimes very quick to jump the gun.


----------



## Jim in Oakville

snyiper said:


> Really all this over a pen? We have the ability to come online and call someone out but we cant call them or send a PM to see if there is a legit reason for any delay? This is the exact reason we should not have any type of public wall of shame. 13 pages of reading to find out it was a simple out of sight out of mind issue very easy to understand. I think we are sometimes very quick to jump the gun.



(click) "LIKE"


----------



## Scotty

Good grief, I am NOT opening this thread again.  If my name appears on a wall of shame, will someone please let me know?  I don't intend to open that thread either.  I don't want to know.


----------



## omb76

Scotty said:


> Good grief, I am NOT opening this thread again.  If my name appears on a wall of shame, will someone please let me know?  I don't intend to open that thread either.  I don't want to know.



LOL!  It's like a train wreck, you can't help but look!  :biggrin:  We should rename the forum to "As the Pen Turns"...  

Glad that everything (hopefully) is straightened out now.


----------



## DocStram

snyiper said:


> Really all this over a pen? . . . . 13 pages of reading to find out it was a simple out of sight out of mind issue very easy to understand. I think we are sometimes very quick to jump the gun.




Nope, it's not 13 pages just over somebody's forgetfulness.  I see the real intent of this thread focusing upon a bigger issue than just a loss of memory.  The thread was sidetracked with a couple of personal issues. But,  I think we need a healthy discussion on how to deal with the occasional bottom feeder who purposefully defrauds others.  

Maybe the person who "took advantage" of me with my being shortchanged in the amount of $60 or $70 is the same person who is fleecing others.  Maybe you'd want to know about it before you entered into a deal with him.  

It is for that reason that I am advocating for the public posting of names of those individuals who, after careful review by the mods, are found to be unscrupulous.  If I can post this information in the vendor review for a company that I am unhappy with, then what about an individual who is not associated with a business? 

I think this is an important dialogue for all of us.


----------



## hunter-27

DocStram said:


> snyiper said:
> 
> 
> 
> Really all this over a pen? . . . . 13 pages of reading to find out it was a simple out of sight out of mind issue very easy to understand. I think we are sometimes very quick to jump the gun.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nope, it's not 13 pages just over somebody's forgetfulness.  I see the real intent of this thread focusing upon a bigger issue than just a loss of memory.  The thread was sidetracked with a couple of personal issues. But,  I think we need a healthy discussion on how to deal with the occasional bottom feeder who purposefully defrauds others.
> 
> Maybe the person who "took advantage" of me with my being shortchanged in the amount of $60 or $70 is the same person who is fleecing others.  Maybe you'd want to know about it before you entered into a deal with him.
> 
> It is for that reason that I am advocating for the public posting of names of those individuals who, after careful review by the mods, are found to be unscrupulous.  If I can post this information in the vendor review for a company that I am unhappy with, then what about an individual who is not associated with a business?
> 
> I think this is an important dialogue for all of us.
Click to expand...

Spot on!!


----------



## Texatdurango

snyiper said:


> Really all this over a pen? We have the ability to come online and call someone out but we cant call them or send a PM to see if there is a legit reason for any delay? This is the exact reason we should not have any type of public wall of shame. 13 pages of reading to find out it was a simple out of sight out of mind issue very easy to understand. I think we are sometimes very quick to jump the gun.


 
Good grief...... Stay with the program Glenn!  

This thread has absolutely nothing to do with a simple misunderstanding!  The misunderstanding was just a late addition which derailed the discussion about the original problem which was out-and-out intentional fraud!  And the more we know about these dishonest members lurking amongst us, the better! 

Just something to think about....... Let's say that last year we had such a place to identify dishonest members (crooks, thiefs, etc) then perhaps the very individual responsible for stealing from ALice would have been identified and Alice would have known not to deal with this individual to begin with and this thread would never have happened!

To those of you who STILL think that innocent bystanders will get caught up and have their reputation besmearched, need to think about this a little more!


----------



## Russianwolf

okay, I admit it, it was me.


Not sure how, or why, but according to someone very close to me, Its always my fault. Doesn't matter if I did it, didn't do it, was on the other side of the planet, was asleep at the time. My fault.

So there, you have your culprit.


Now back to our regular programming.


By the way, if I have anything outstanding (other than the purpleheart) let me know.


----------



## glycerine

Russianwolf said:


> okay, I admit it, it was me.
> 
> 
> Not sure how, or why, but according to someone very close to me, Its always my fault. Doesn't matter if I did it, didn't do it, was on the other side of the planet, was asleep at the time. My fault.
> 
> So there, you have your culprit.
> 
> 
> Now back to our regular programming.
> 
> 
> By the way, if I have anything outstanding (other than the purpleheart) let me know.


 
You're supossed to be sending me EVERYTHING in your shop... I'm still waiting.


----------



## omb76

jeff said:


> This is a great thread. Thanks to Alice for opening a great discussion!
> 
> I am in favor of identifying bad apples, after thorough investigation and discussion. I believe that we can come up with ways to separate people with truly extenuating circumstances who can't follow through on their commitments from the real crooks, con-artists, and cheaters.
> 
> I've just opened a discussion with the management team on this topic and thrown out a few ideas for discussion. I think we can come up with something that will strengthen our community.



I don't think anyone has said they are against identifying those that scam others, but there has to be an acceptable way of doing it.  Everyone has a right to their opinion about what should be done, even if it differs from yours...  As noted above, Jeff has already said he agrees that something needs to be done and is working with the management team to come up with something.  I'm sure that whatever they implement will be in the best interest for the IAP and it's members.


----------



## USAFVET98

I am sorry but I have to add my reply to this. 

Every one on this board has been nothing but great since I became a member. Many of us are quite generous as we give just to give and not ask for anything in return. To me this shows good moral character and I can honestly say that 99.8% of the members here are in that category.

That being said, I fell into some tough time with my finds being low so I wasnt able to pay for an item I purchased from a member here and he told me not to worry about it and when I get extra money without breaking myself, to send it. I still havent forgot that and hopefully I will be able to make some money soon so I could pay him in full. 

I kept up communication as did he. We havent been in touch lately but Im sure he knows I havent forgot.

Since that and other trades and purchases I have made since becoming a member I have shipped countless items new, used and even services for nothing as my way of paying it forward.

I havent had the means to buy much from exotic, however; I do know they they are among the most stand up, generous and professional people I have ever dealt with. I find it really hard to believe that this was intentional. I mean these are the same people who make it a point to throw in freebies with every package they ship out!:biggrin:

Sorry for this rant, I had to get it off my chest. I was keeping up on this thread and got very upset at that personal attack. Uncalled for and in poor taste!:frown:


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## Andrew_K99

The thing that EVERYONE seems to be forgetting about is this is a free online gathering place that is not policed by the moderators. These volunteers watch for profanity and other negative posts in threads; we can not ask them to police our PERSONAL transactions.

They should have their own personal list of 'suspect' (remember inoccent until proven other wise) members and ban them when they have just cause or have multiple complaints against them. They shouldn't have to track down all the information to see if foul play was involved. That is asking a lot for something we all get for free.

Just my 2¢


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## Russianwolf

glycerine said:


> Russianwolf said:
> 
> 
> 
> okay, I admit it, it was me.
> 
> 
> Not sure how, or why, but according to someone very close to me, Its always my fault. Doesn't matter if I did it, didn't do it, was on the other side of the planet, was asleep at the time. My fault.
> 
> So there, you have your culprit.
> 
> 
> Now back to our regular programming.
> 
> 
> By the way, if I have anything outstanding (other than the purpleheart) let me know.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You're supossed to be sending me EVERYTHING in your shop... I'm still waiting.
Click to expand...


Soon as you send the $45000 for postage......


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## Smitty37

*Thicker skin*



DocStram said:


> snyiper said:
> 
> 
> 
> Really all this over a pen? . . . . 13 pages of reading to find out it was a simple out of sight out of mind issue very easy to understand. I think we are sometimes very quick to jump the gun.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nope, it's not 13 pages just over somebody's forgetfulness. I see the real intent of this thread focusing upon a bigger issue than just a loss of memory. The thread was sidetracked with a couple of personal issues. But, I think we need a healthy discussion on how to deal with the occasional bottom feeder who purposefully defrauds others.
> 
> Maybe the person who "took advantage" of me with my being shortchanged in the amount of $60 or $70 is the same person who is fleecing others. Maybe you'd want to know about it before you entered into a deal with him.
> 
> It is for that reason that I am advocating for the public posting of names of those individuals who, after careful review by the mods, are found to be unscrupulous. If I can post this information in the vendor review for a company that I am unhappy with, then what about an individual who is not associated with a business?
> 
> I think this is an important dialogue for all of us.
Click to expand...

 
Vendors have thicker skin.


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## GoodTurns

Russianwolf said:


> okay, I admit it, it was me.
> 
> Not sure how, or why, but according to someone very close to me, Its always my fault. Doesn't matter if I did it, didn't do it, was on the other side of the planet, was asleep at the time. My fault.
> 
> So there, you have your culprit.



Spoken like a married man!  I believe I have the same speech on tape somewhere at home :biggrin:!


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## Sylvanite

If I were in Jeff's shoes, I'd be happy if the moderators helped out with a cursory investigation, and if a pattern of disreputable acts appeared, take action up to the point of banning someone from the site.  My primary concerns would be helping out the members, and not placing too large a burden on the mods.

I'd be very leery, however, of having a publlicly viewable, site-sponsored, moderator maintained list of "dishonest" dealings.  That might open him up to claims of libel (whether they be founded or not).

Regards,
Eric


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## MesquiteMan

Sylvanite said:


> If I were in Jeff's shoes, I'd be happy if the moderators helped out with a cursory investigation, and if a pattern of disreputable acts appeared, take action up to the point of banning someone from the site.  My primary concerns would be helping out the members, and not placing too large a burden on the mods.
> 
> I'd be very leery, however, of having a publlicly viewable, site-sponsored, moderator maintained list of "dishonest" dealings.  That might open him up to claims of libel (whether they be founded or not).
> 
> Regards,
> Eric



I already do the investigation when it is brought to my attention and take action as necessary.  Have done it a number of times in the past and will do it again in the future as the need arises.


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## JerrySambrook

Mike,

Are we related to the same close person? :biggrin:




Russianwolf said:


> okay, I admit it, it was me.
> 
> 
> Not sure how, or why, but according to someone very close to me, Its always my fault. Doesn't matter if I did it, didn't do it, was on the other side of the planet, was asleep at the time. My fault.
> 
> So there, you have your culprit.
> 
> 
> Now back to our regular programming.
> 
> 
> By the way, if I have anything outstanding (other than the purpleheart) let me know.


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## Russianwolf

Don't know, but I'd wage they went to the same "finishing" school.



JerrySambrook said:


> Mike,
> 
> Are we related to the same close person? :biggrin:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Russianwolf said:
> 
> 
> 
> okay, I admit it, it was me.
> 
> 
> Not sure how, or why, but according to someone very close to me, Its always my fault. Doesn't matter if I did it, didn't do it, was on the other side of the planet, was asleep at the time. My fault.
> 
> So there, you have your culprit.
> 
> 
> Now back to our regular programming.
> 
> 
> By the way, if I have anything outstanding (other than the purpleheart) let me know.
Click to expand...


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## Gin N' Tonic

MLKWoodWorking said:


> kinggabby said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not trying to sound negative. But how does that help stop them from hurting people on trades and things that are not under the realm of group activities? What if after an investigation then place them on a list of people we should not deal with. That way they have a chance to tell their side and make things right first.... then if the fail than then black list openly?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have to agree with Dave on this.  Baring people from participating in group activities does nothing to stop what Alice went through and what others have silently encountered.  This is a rare occurrence on IAP but it does happen, and it probably happens much more than we all know.  We are talking about transactions on the IAP outside the jurisdiction of the activities manager.
> 
> I do not think it should be the job of the moderators to police these people.  I do think that the members of IAP are more than capable of policing these people.  Like Mike R. said earlier, situations change for people in a blink of an eye, and there may be good reason they have not lived up to their part of the agreement.  That of course would not excuse failing to be up from with the person you have the agreement with.
> 
> Anything that is considered would have to approved by Jeff.
Click to expand...




Rare occurrence? It's happened to me 5 times! It is precisely the reason why I will never again participate in a PITH or make a trade with another member on this forum. I used to send pen kits, blanks and even tools to members of this forum who were just starting out with the understanding that it was a TRADE for a single handcrafted pen. A simple slimline was all that was needed to fulfill their end of the bargain which I did not think was asking too much since I sent more than enough kits and material. Many of our members did send me a pen and those are the most treasured pens in my collection.

For the record, I have made 23 trades including 3 PITH's of which I was stiffed once and the rest of the times were from sending stuff to members and never hearing from them again. Some of these members have since moved on but I know of one or two that are still here and one of them have done it to other members who I have talked to so it might be more of a widespread problem than management knows. Unfortunately the only solution for me is to just stop participating.


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## alphageek

Gin N' Tonic said:


> Rare occurrence? It's happened to me 5 times! It is precisely the reason why I will never again participate in a PITH or make a trade with another member on this forum. I used to send pen kits, blanks and even tools to members of this forum who were just starting out with the understanding that it was a TRADE for a single handcrafted pen. A simple slimline was all that was needed to fulfill their end of the bargain which I did not think was asking too much since I sent more than enough kits and material. Many of our members did send me a pen and those are the most treasured pens in my collection.
> 
> For the record, I have made 23 trades including 3 PITH's of which I was stiffed once and the rest of the times were from sending stuff to members and never hearing from them again. Some of these members have since moved on but I know of one or two that are still here and one of them have done it to other members who I have talked to so it might be more of a widespread problem than management knows. Unfortunately the only solution for me is to just stop participating.



If its more wide than management knows, its because no-one is reporting it to them... I would say please don't just stop participating...  Report it... If nothing else, Curtis or Jeff can be another voice to help 'push' people to live up to their side of the bargain AND if management have more information, then better decisions can be made for policies on the site.

Dean Charlier
Assistant Moderator


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## Gin N' Tonic

alphageek said:


> Gin N' Tonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Rare occurrence? It's happened to me 5 times! It is precisely the reason why I will never again participate in a PITH or make a trade with another member on this forum. I used to send pen kits, blanks and even tools to members of this forum who were just starting out with the understanding that it was a TRADE for a single handcrafted pen. A simple slimline was all that was needed to fulfill their end of the bargain which I did not think was asking too much since I sent more than enough kits and material. Many of our members did send me a pen and those are the most treasured pens in my collection.
> 
> For the record, I have made 23 trades including 3 PITH's of which I was stiffed once and the rest of the times were from sending stuff to members and never hearing from them again. Some of these members have since moved on but I know of one or two that are still here and one of them have done it to other members who I have talked to so it might be more of a widespread problem than management knows. Unfortunately the only solution for me is to just stop participating.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If its more wide than management knows, its because no-one is reporting it to them... I would say please don't just stop participating...  Report it... If nothing else, Curtis or Jeff can be another voice to help 'push' people to live up to their side of the bargain AND if management have more information, then better decisions can be made for policies on the site.
> 
> Dean Charlier
> Assistant Moderator
Click to expand...




It WAS mentioned, and ignored. As far as I am concerned it's over and done with. Safer for me that way.


----------



## Gin N' Tonic

MesquiteMan said:


> OK Guys, I just got home from a long day of trimming a house I have under construction.  The proper way of dealing with this is to report it to me or Jeff.  If it is an official IAP activity, then report it to Mike.
> 
> Believe me, we do take these things seriously and have taken action many times in the past that no one was aware of.  Alice contacted me about a problem many months ago and I sent the person a PM.  I did not hear back from Alice so I assumed it had been taken care of.  I am not sure if this is the same person/situation or a different one.  Alice, if it is the same person, please let me know via PM and send me the name again as well as any PMs you may have.  I will take it from there.
> 
> As for others...if you have gotten the short end of the stick, PLEASE let me know.  We can't fix something if we are not aware of it!  We have dealt or attempted to deal with any and all issues that have been brought to our attention.
> 
> Like said above, transactions are between members so there is nothing we can do about the transaction but I guarantee you, if it is not rectified, the offending person be ejected from the site.  We have done it before and will not hesitate to do it again.  We already have provisions in the TOS and AUP to handle this and do not need any new rules.
> 
> As for a list, that isn't happening!  (that is, unless Jeff decides to do it!)




Sorry Curtis but from my experience that statement is a load of crap. I've spoken to you about this more than once and even brought it up to "the management" when I was involved there and NOTHING was done. Hopefully with more parties involved things are being done now. Please excuse me for being cynical but I've seen this all before.


----------



## IPD_Mrs

Russianwolf said:


> okay, I admit it, it was me.
> 
> 
> Not sure how, or why, but according to someone very close to me, Its always my fault. Doesn't matter if I did it, didn't do it, was on the other side of the planet, was asleep at the time. My fault.
> 
> So there, you have your culprit.
> 
> 
> Now back to our regular programming.
> 
> 
> By the way, if I have anything outstanding (other than the purpleheart) let me know.


 
Wow if ever there were words of a married man this is it!:biggrin:


----------



## mbroberg

There are attempts being made to curtail this type of activity when it comes to IAP Activities.  Rules are now in place that prohibit individuals from participating in activities if their public profile is not complete, so we at least know the name of people participating and where they live.  If it is reported to me that someone has not met there obligations during an activity they will not be allowed to participate in future activities until they do.  There are occassions where things come up that interfer with IAP activities.  When those situations arise, communication is important.

It is unfortunate that anyone gets cheated as a result of involvement in an IAP activity.  When that happens, and it is reported, steps will be taken to resolve the problem.  If it is not reported then there is nothing that will be done.

Sent from my DROID2 using Forum Runner


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