# question about wooden kitless - inserts - and stabilized woods



## watch_art (Jun 23, 2012)

Talked to a pen turner/wood craftsman buddy today and he was telling me that wood is tricky.  It shrinks and expands and eventually WILL separate from the acrylic it's glued to.
I've asked a couple people who collect wooden pens made by Sailor how their pens have fared over the years, and have talked to a couple other pen turners who've never had problems...

But I'm still freaked out in general.  I've already mailed off a couple of wooden pens with the acrylic inserts glued in and the thought of them coming apart makes me more than a little nervous.

So then stabilized woods come into the mix.  Are those better options for this type of stuff?  What about mutt blanks?  THose aren't stabilized - but is there a chance the wood and acrylic would ever separate after a few years of expansion and contraction?

Thanks.


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## KBs Pensnmore (Jun 23, 2012)

I think if you used a good epoxy glue then there shouldn't be a problem. As I'm led to believe that epoxies are designed to have a little bit of flexability in them.
Kryn


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## Dustygoose (Jun 23, 2012)

I agree with the epoxy and flexability.   I wonder about the urathane glues(gorilla)


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## watch_art (Jun 23, 2012)

i'd think gorilla glue would expand and break the wood.


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## BRobbins629 (Jun 23, 2012)

There are many applications where plastic parts are glued to wood and if the correct glues are used, there are no issues. Two that come to mind are piano keys and the purfling that goes around guitar bodies.  In both of those cases there is a lot of handling and stress, and while some woods react different than others, it can be done.  I suspect most are using epoxies for both applications.


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## Displaced Canadian (Jun 23, 2012)

I have a pen I made 2 years ago with acrylic and kingwood. Now you can see and feel every joint. My thought would be to make some kind of mechanical joint then glue. Wood might not thread well but if you could get a few threads in it there is a chance it would hold better. Or put in a longer insert with a glue that is more flexible and mount the plastic insert so it isn't seen therefore as long as it stays in any gaps wouldn't be an issue. Haven't tried any of this myself, just spit ballin' here.


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## BSea (Jun 23, 2012)

I believe Monte sells some special CA that is designed to flex.  I've never used it, but it might be an option.  And if it is a real problem, wouldn't we be seeing a lot of kit pens come loose from the brass tubes?

Here's the link to the special CA


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## watch_art (Jun 23, 2012)

All good points -

I emailed a guy in India who has a small collection of wooden pens made by Sailor and Pilot, and some 40+ year old dip nib holders with the metal nib holder glued in.  All have held up well.
He said they use old seasoned woods that won't move too much b/c they've settled - or something along those lines.

So as long as I'm not using green woods I should be okay really.
And like you all say - we'd be seeing lots of wood pens coming loose from tubes if it were a problem.  If a pen with inserts lasts 2 or 3 years before showing any problems I'll be ecstatic.  If it never shows any problems even better.


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## LL Woodworks (Jun 26, 2012)

I would definitely narrow down the types of wood used in this application.  All woods move across the grain more so that with the grain, some more than others.  For example Mesquite is very stable, there is 1) very little overall movement and 2) the difference between longitudinal and latitudinal movement is very small.  Other species aren't as forgiving. Other factors to consider are the moisture content of the wood when milled, the finish used after milling and the humidity of the environment.  There are several wood movement reference resources available here is just one;
http://workshoppages.com/WS/Articles/Wood-Movement-Charts.pdf

Here is a pretty good movement calculator:
Estimate Wood Movement Calculator

Good luck -


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## leehljp (Jun 26, 2012)

You can work with other woods that move considerably IF, IF you stabilize them. Many Crosscut blanks not stabilized will crack and split. Other woods will move as you were told above. It is good to be paranoid about this, and with your background in fountain pens where "quality" is an understood characteristic and demanded without a second thought, - so, do the things to prevent or at least greatly minimize wood movement down the road.

Know which woods move more than others.
Know which woods move in which way.
Learn to dry the wood
Learn to stabilize.
Learn which woods are very difficult to stabilize.

There is a book "Understanding Wood" by Hoadley. (You can look it up on Amazon.) In this book, he has charts on the movement in which direction for quite a few wood species. 

Very interesting, insightful and helpful in wood characteristics.


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