# I noticed a trend here



## jttheclockman (Sep 26, 2015)

Having a down day I decided to check something. It was mentioned in another post about getting a Wow page started that someone brought up a point about viewing SOYP. I never knew it and probably not many here knew it or know it. But if you click on a forum and go to the right side of the page you will see in the header total views and total replies. You click either one and it will show you the most viewed thread or if you click replies it will show you the thread with the most replies and it will list in descending order.

What I had noticed besides reliving some of the great old post and seeing names that I wish were still here, that this site has fallen off drastically in participation. Now we have more members than ever before but things are just not the same. Just from a quick look at a few of the forums, it looks like the years from 2008 -2010 were the most active. It looked like people liked talking more about pens and inventing new ideas and running with old ideas. Now i know there are more forums to read and add comments to but the basic ones were there and always will be there and those are the ones I quickly looked at.

Not a scientific study by no means but maybe something there. Take a look for yourself. 

My question or questions are as follows. Is there a lack of interest in pen turning these days??? Is the hobby falling off??? Are people too busy to not participate in the forums any more??? Are the topics so mundane that they draw no interest any more?? Or has pen turning become so commonplace that everyone is doing it and there are no more challenges??? Is there too much info available here now that no need to get pen making conversations going??

If so is there a fix?? What would it take to get more participation here??  What else can be discussed to get back to those long conversations about pen making??? 

Just some food for thought as you visit the site. Maybe I am seeing something that is not there. (have done that, I believe in aliens) 

Have a great day.


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## plantman (Sep 26, 2015)

John; I think that as members get better and better at pen making they tend to rush over threads and questions that the newer members are submitting. It's the old " been there done that " outlook. I have also noticed that many of the older ( not age ) members no longer comment, answer questions, or submit threads or photos to the site !! I also feel that the pen market is getting flooded. If you don't make a pen with some new ideas, skills, methods, or WOW factors, your just one of the sheep in the herd of pen makers. At least we don't hear from the black sheep as much as we used to. You know the ones with the smart, condecending, or one word answers. Now that we have covered wood, metal, plastics, and stone as materials, there isn't much left other than skill and out of the box thinking to impress our fellow pen turners or the world. I don't have an answer of how to peak more interest here, but I am sure someone will come up with some ideas.   Jim   S


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## Smitty37 (Sep 26, 2015)

*My Opinion*



jttheclockman said:


> Having a down day I decided to check something. It was mentioned in another post about getting a Wow page started that someone brought up a point about viewing SOYP. I never knew it and probably not many here knew it or know it. But if you click on a forum and go to the right side of the page you will see in the header total views and total replies. You click either one and it will show you the most viewed thread or if you click replies it will show you the thread with the most replies and it will list in descending order.
> 
> What I had noticed besides reliving some of the great old post and seeing names that I wish were still here, that this site has fallen off drastically in participation. Now we have more members than ever before but things are just not the same. Just from a quick look at a few of the forums, it looks like the years from 2008 -2010 were the most active. It looked like people liked talking more about pens and inventing new ideas and running with old ideas. Now i know there are more forums to read and add comments to but the basic ones were there and always will be there and those are the ones I quickly looked at.
> 
> ...


First, I'll say that I'm not looking for a debate but here are some factors that I think have had an impact on the number of posts. 
1. Tighter control over stopping political or religious comments was implemented a few years ago about 2011 I think.  That reduced arguments that elicited a lot of posts. Particularly in the Casual Conversation Forum. This was deliberate and I am pretty sure it did result in a reduction in posts and threads there

2.  Adding more forums - I know it is counter intuitive but I think that having more special interest forums results in fewer posts.  I personally find that I don't go to any of them very often because I feel I have nothing to contribute.  That might not be true but I still stay away from most of them.

3.  Judging by pen kit sales it's hard to say whether there's a slowing of interest or not - the large vendors seem to be acting like there is and are all working different ways of approaching it.  PSI is introducing new kits practically every month.  Dayacom has started selling retail.  CSUSA seems to be shifting emphasis to lathes and related equipment.

4. 2008 to 2010 the economy tanked when the housing bubble broke in 2008.  Lots of folks lost their job and had poor prospects of finding a new one.  Looking for a way to make income there was an influx of new people into all kinds of crafts including pen turning.  For the same reason a lot of casual hobbyists started to market their pens and were looking for advice on how to do it.  

5. The shift to widespread use of CA finishes and man made blanks was also taking place in those years and there were many question about those subjects - those shifts are now complete and fewer questions come up about them.

Remember those points are all personal opinions and I have no empierical evidence for any of them and could be completely wrong.

. I have an opinion on what could be done to increase participation but I am not going to share it right now because it is almost completely counter to what is actually happening to the site.


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## jeff (Sep 26, 2015)

You are correct, but there is more to the story.

Normalized for the number of members, posts are down by about 25% versus 5 years ago. However, normalized page views are roughly the same. Looking at our search statistics, I believe part of the reason is that people are searching for and finding the information they need. With almost 1.5 million posts, people can find a lot of what they're looking for without asking. 

So the problem seems to be one of participation, getting people to start and jump into discussions.

There are also other places to post and ask, and those do draw people away. Facebook, which is pretty useless in terms of developing a body of searchable knowledge, does appeal to a lot of people. I far prefer discussing things in a small room with friends rather than screaming across a stadium, which is kind of how I perceive FB.

Generating interesting conversation is one of the reasons that I created the New Member Advocate position and strong-armed Edgar into taking on that challenge. My hope is that getting new members involved will also invigorate general creative discussions from the entire community. 

Another fix is for people such as yourself to continue raising interesting topics, but I recognize that there is an unpleasant result to that sometimes. I realize that many times they degenerate into flame wars because every community has a few inhabitants who delight in disturbing the peace. Spirited discussion is great, but it does cross the line sometimes. I take part of the blame for allowing it to happen, but there is a very fine line between maintaining order and censoring discussion. When people perceive that the latter has happened, I get all kinds of grief.

I am always open to doing things that will increase participation and generate good conversation. Today I'll be creating a couple new forums in the blank making area which I hope will get some new conversation under way.

Thanks for bringing this up!


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## jeff (Sep 26, 2015)

Smitty37 said:


> I have an opinion on what could be done to increase participation but I am not going to share it right now because it is almost completely counter to what is actually happening to the site.



My PM box is waiting for your suggestion!


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## GaryMGg (Sep 26, 2015)

First off, JT thanks for starting this thread.
I never used the view/reply feature before today.
My #1 personal favorite pen--Pentarsia--was at the top albeit with lots of bad blood.
The second most viewed is a collection of inspirations, including kudos to you right out of the box--and, well earned.

I'm one who posts much less these days.
My main focus outside family and work is ServicePens.
When I see an extraordinary (to me) work, I comment.
I think the "like" button has replaced 'NPGJ'.  :wink:


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## Dalecamino (Sep 26, 2015)

I've always been an advocate for the library when someone asks a question on How To. Maybe it's working, maybe not. I avoid those questions these days. My answers don't seem to very popular with others. 

I agree that discussions need to be started. Who wants to go first? :biggrin:


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## low_48 (Sep 26, 2015)

When I joined in 2004, innovation was growing by leaps and bounds. Everything was new! What a lot of the innovators found out, was that sharing meant that they would be copied all across the world. I felt that started to limit some sharing, until they found out that profit could be made. Now, you can produce a huge variety of work, and not have to innovate at all. I feel that was the major shift on the site. With that huge variety available, you will get a lot of "look at how I made my variation" of what are stock kits and blanks available to everyone. Not something that will generate a lot of participation. Sorry, no suggestions, just observations.


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## KCW (Sep 26, 2015)

I think, like Jeff said, the more questions that get answered, and stored, and the more people respond with "do a search", the less questions will be asked.  I know I hesitate to ask a question, because of the impending, " do a search" response.  I just asked a question about what new lathe people would recommend, in spite of the canned response, and I have noticed that people have looked at the thread, gone as far as checking me out on Etsy, and still no responses.


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## plano_harry (Sep 26, 2015)

Great point John.  When I first started I was searching and reading everything on the site, incorporated what I deemed the best ideas/techniques and got comfortable with my expertise.  Then I wanted to share my knowledge with new turners so I responded to a lot of newbie questions.  Then it was just the same questions over an over, I got tired of typing and others were answering.  I completely agree with Jeff's point.  There is such a wealth of information here and the search works beautifully so I have not needed to ask a question in a long time.  

Wayne has done a super job on the library. I was seeing CA questions over and over so I decided to write an article to add to the other articles on the subject in the library.  But the same questions continued to be asked...

Recently I sought wisdom on snakewood.  I got all the answers I needed without ever posting a question, so I got back to making pens 

It is pretty hard to find a question that has not already been asked/answered many times.


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## mbroberg (Sep 26, 2015)

jeff said:


> ...every community has a few inhabitants who delight in disturbing the peace.



I find this to be the most disheartening circumstance affecting the IAP.  There are certain individuals who simply have no respect for the opinion of others.  Their only goal is to start arguments for the sole purpose of winning the argument, which they believe demonstrates their vast superiority and greater intelligence over everyone else.  They are right, you are wrong, end of "discussion"!  I think people hesitate to post simply because they do not want to have to deal with this mentality, especially if they have been attacked before for simply asking a question or sharing a process that worked for them.  In my opinion the self serving individuals are a cancer eating away at the fabric of IAP community.  They stifle participation.  What little they contribute to the community is overshadowed by the damage they do to it.  

Since I joined in 2009 I have seen many of these individuals come and go.  There always seems to be at least one, sometimes more than one.  Several of them have calmed down and have converted into very valuable and helpful members of the community.  Some have simply left.  But in time, someone else will come along and replace them.


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## Smitty37 (Sep 26, 2015)

jeff said:


> .... I realize that many times they degenerate into flame wars because every community has a few inhabitants who delight in disturbing the peace....


But, these discussions are frequently the most followed you have. People seem to like a little flame now and then.


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## Smitty37 (Sep 26, 2015)

mbroberg said:


> jeff said:
> 
> 
> > ...every community has a few inhabitants who delight in disturbing the peace.
> ...


Well, I'm probably one of them...frankly I like to argue.  So I could stop responding when I disagree and there would be even less participation.  ditto for some of the others who disagree a lot.


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## skiprat (Sep 26, 2015)

Mike, the Ignore function is a great tool for narcissists. :biggrin: I don't consider to be one myself   but I'm sure I pee off several people and that I'm on a Ignore list or two.:tongue: 

I was going to suggest that if you appear on more than 5 or 6 Ignore lists, then you get the boot.......but like I said, it may include me, so I won't suggest it !!:biggrin:

I have joked about it before, but I really would like to see a Reverse Ingore function. There are several people on this site that prevent me ( for various reasons ) from posting more detailed info or sharing tricks here as I really don't want those few to benefit from anything I may have to offer. If I could prevent them from seeing my posts, then I would most definitely post more. 

I even have got to the stage where I sometimes just pass over a stunning piece of work, without comment, just because of either who posted it or if it is just a suck up advert for a vendor. 

The other thing about all of us is that we are getting older and grumpier !!:biggrin:

Hey...JT,,,,,,,  you could have made another cool pen in the time you spent doing that research !!!  Me too....but I like a good moan now and then too..:biggrin:


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## mbroberg (Sep 26, 2015)

Smitty37 said:


> mbroberg said:
> 
> 
> > jeff said:
> ...



You are not one of them.  I don't have any heartburn over disagreement or argument as long as it remains civil.  Discussion, disagreement and debate is good.  Obnoxious name calling and belittlement is not.  I don't recall any of your arguments where you have not presented some reasoning, facts or examples to back your opinions up.


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## jttheclockman (Sep 26, 2015)

skiprat said:


> Mike, the Ignore function is a great tool for narcissists. :biggrin: I don't consider to be one myself   but I'm sure I pee off several people and that I'm on a Ignore list or two.:tongue:
> 
> I was going to suggest that if you appear on more than 5 or 6 Ignore lists, then you get the boot.......but like I said, it may include me, so I won't suggest it !!:biggrin:
> 
> ...



Hey Skip, I am sure I am on many of those lists too

I for one and I am sure there are a lot of other people here that enjoy your posts and the way you detail some of the things you do. It opens minds to the possibilities that can be done. You see the number of likes you get on your pens. As I have been told many times, do not let the few spoil it for the many.

As far as getting old and grumpier, that is also true.:biggrin:


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## mbroberg (Sep 26, 2015)

skiprat said:


> Mike, the Ignore function is a great tool for narcissists. :biggrin:



I personally do not need to put someone on an ignore list in order to ignore them.  However, if I did, you would not be on it.  I (mostly :biggrin enjoy your posts and I've learned a lot from you.  Like I said, I have nothing against differences of opinion and spirited debate as long as it remains civil.  Some of the "flame wars" degenerate to the point of right or wrong no longer really mattering to the participants.  It's all about "winning", no matter what it takes.  When people have to resort to bullying and name calling and personal attacks to prevail in an argument then their argument probably isn't very valid in the first place.  Members, particularly newer members who are on the receiving end of these attacks for simply trying to contribute or asking a question are probably going to be hesitant to contribute again.

My opinion was not meant to detract from the other variables identified as possible reasons for declining participation.  This is one of the variables that was identified that I feel has been a recurring problem for as long as I've been here.


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## ed4copies (Sep 26, 2015)

mbroberg said:


> jeff said:
> 
> 
> > ...every community has a few inhabitants who delight in disturbing the peace.
> ...



I can tell you, for a fact, this has greatly reduced my posting.  I KNOW a certain someone will follow me and throw as much 'cold water' as possible, which will inhibit others from posting, as well.  There is no point in starting a conversation, if you have good reason to believe it will be terminated by one individual.


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## brownsfn2 (Sep 26, 2015)

Is it me Ed? 

I tend not to post technique or what I use in pen turning since I see too many times where some with think their way is the only way and therefore the opinion of others is irrelevant.  So I think I contribute less as a result.


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## maxwell_smart007 (Sep 26, 2015)

Another change that very significantly reduced posts was the "like" button.  Instead of 50 posts saying "nice pen, good job", many people just click 'like" instead. 

I think that's a good addition, but I think it would definitely contribute to the statistical decline in post count...but each post has more value in that posts expressing admiration usually say 'why' they like the pen, else people would just click 'like;.


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## jeff (Sep 26, 2015)

We could try an experiment.

You could all go back to posting more, and when someone make a post of the type that causes you to want to post less, hit the yellow triangle and we'll have a look. Perhaps my tolerance has been too high for too long and the result is that we are getting too little of what makes this a place people want to be. 

Years ago I made a post titled Forum Decorum that expressed my feelings about how to peacefully coexist at IAP. Perhaps I have been too reluctant in dealing with those very few who did not take that advice.

Worth a shot?


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## Kragax (Sep 26, 2015)

I think sometimes if you ruffle a few feathers on a given subject your future posts get ignored as well. Spirited discussion is a good thing kept in civilized boundaries. But you can disagree with someone without shunning them and disregarding their posts. This may be part of the problem but its just a guess on my part. Perhaps a forum dedicated to these type of discussions would help.


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## jttheclockman (Sep 26, 2015)

Well like with all threads they usually take on a theme or trend and this is no exception. It is good to see that I am not alone in what I thought I was seeing.

I get the ruffling of feathers syndrome, believe me!!! I have left this site on numerous occasions and sometimes for a year due to attacks which I just get tired of defending. The thing is I have to come back to answer PM questions and then I start looking around and find myself jumping in where I can. Now that I am unable to turn any pens I find myself channel surfing a lot more. I still find this site the most complete all around pen making site there is on the net. It was due to both the leadership but also the members past and present. 

With that said I agree with many things that have been said and yes sadly the like button has probably taken away from the comments. Without addressing each person your thoughts are spot on. It is a great thing that this site holds so much info in the art of pen making and maybe more and more people are using that and no need for questions.

The one thing I disagree with and do not remember who mentioned it is we have run the gamut on different medium we work with and exhausted it. Yes back then things were new and this provoked many topics. Why can't it still be the same thing. I continually push the idea of thinking outside the box. We all have this in us. Just need to tap into it. You can not expect just a handful of people to carry the ideas here. What we need to do is take those ideas and run with them and expand on them. Boy I sound like a broken record even to myself.  There are those that use different tools to make both blanks and entire pens. They are gracious enough to show us them. Sometimes even write tutorials. I am not saying copy the pen but expand on it or add your own design. A very good example of this is what Skiprat did with my original Panache Ying Yang pen. 

How do we add more participation???  Well again I am going to stretch my memory but forgive for not remembering who was doing it but they were putting up a challenge almost every 2 weeks or so where they would do simple slimline pens but with different ideas. It looked like it was something that drew some people to it. I remember on another forum I posted some celtic knots with subtle differences and the next thing people wanted to know how it was done but I gave them few clues and finally they worked it out. I know many here know those answers and as well on that site but they stood back and let others enjoy the challenge. Maybe something like this is possible. 

To sum this up, it looks like we have ideas what has caused the fall off but what do we do to pep it back up??

Take care all.


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## mbroberg (Sep 26, 2015)

jttheclockman said:


> How do we add more participation???  Well again I am going to stretch my memory but forgive for not remembering who was doing it but they were putting up a challenge almost every 2 weeks or so where they would do simple slimline pens but with different ideas. It looked like it was something that drew some people to it.



John,

I think you are talking about Butch (LDB2000).  Here is an examle of what he used to do.  It was really fun and educational.

http://www.penturners.org/forum/f18/penmakers-challenge-61668/


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## jttheclockman (Sep 26, 2015)

mbroberg said:


> jttheclockman said:
> 
> 
> > How do we add more participation???  Well again I am going to stretch my memory but forgive for not remembering who was doing it but they were putting up a challenge almost every 2 weeks or so where they would do simple slimline pens but with different ideas. It looked like it was something that drew some people to it.
> ...




Yes you are correct. I thought he was very good at it.


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## Bob Wemm (Sep 26, 2015)

I'll chuck my 10 cents worth in here, not that I have much experience in Pen Making, but I enjoy this conversation.
I had no intention of making pens when I purchased my lathe, but was encouraged to join the IAP by robutation(George). It didn't take long before I bought a few kits and then accumulated 100's of blanks. Even made some of my own from different materials.
But I have found it difficult to sell my pens, even at almost give-away prices so I have all but stopped making them. My other passion is making Bowls and Segmented pieces but as they are posted there is very little comment. I realise that this is a Pen Turning site and that is probably why.
I guess the biggest problem is that it is so easy to just "Like" rather than respond in full.

Bob.


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## plantman (Sep 26, 2015)

jeff said:


> We could try an experiment.
> 
> You could all go back to posting more, and when someone make a post of the type that causes you to want to post less, hit the yellow triangle and we'll have a look. Perhaps my tolerance has been too high for too long and the result is that we are getting too little of what makes this a place people want to be.
> 
> ...



This is a good example of  my lack of knowledge after 4 years on this site !! I never noticed the yellow triangle before, much less new what it was used for. What is that other thing next to it and what is it used for ??  Jim  S


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## BRobbins629 (Sep 26, 2015)

Nice thread good job.


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## maxwell_smart007 (Sep 26, 2015)

Bob Wemm said:


> I'll chuck my 10 cents worth in here, not that I have much experience in Pen Making, but I enjoy this conversation.
> I had no intention of making pens when I purchased my lathe, but was encouraged to join the IAP by robutation(George). It didn't take long before I bought a few kits and then accumulated 100's of blanks. Even made some of my own from different materials.
> But I have found it difficult to sell my pens, even at almost give-away prices so I have all but stopped making them. My other passion is making Bowls and Segmented pieces but as they are posted there is very little comment. I realise that this is a Pen Turning site and that is probably why.
> I guess the biggest problem is that it is so easy to just "Like" rather than respond in full.
> ...



Post them, Bob - I really enjoy looking at segmented items and bowls (but I find I likely don't respond as often as I should!)


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## Crashmph (Sep 27, 2015)

I tend to shy away from posting at times due to a few members on here that are flat out jerks, and I care nothing about communicating with them.


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## jttheclockman (Sep 27, 2015)

plantman said:


> jeff said:
> 
> 
> > We could try an experiment.
> ...




Jim that is a picture of you:biggrin::biggrin:. What it is is an indicator if that person is online. If it is green then they are on line. If red they are off line. If grey they are invisable.


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## Carl Fisher (Sep 27, 2015)

A good opposing views discussion is usually a great learning tool. It's the unforgiving binary I'm right, you're wrong and no points you say are valid that turns many off.

Or the Your wrong, but I"m not going to even grace you with the reason why. <<<< This is all too common lately from at least one or two members I can think of. If you have an opinion why you feel something is wrong, share your reasoning behind it. Don't just post a two word condescending post and then go back under the troll bridge. It benefits nobody and likely causes others to not bother participating.

The Like button was a great addition in that it cut down on the post count of the generic "nice fit and finish", "looks great", "good job" type posts. Those inflated the post count, but didn't really add meaningful content. I'd be willing to bet that there is more substance to the posts now than 5 years ago.

Just a few cents from my perspective :biggrin:


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## TellicoTurning (Sep 27, 2015)

jeff said:


> We could try an experiment.
> 
> You could all go back to posting more, and when someone make a post of the type that causes you to want to post less, hit the yellow triangle and we'll have a look. Perhaps my tolerance has been too high for too long and the result is that we are getting too little of what makes this a place people want to be.
> 
> ...



I'm probably one of those whose postings have dropped off, even though you wouldn't know it by the numbers... I rarely ever use the "like" button, don't get into the controversial conversations, have never used the "ignore" button and generally have stopped doing pens... haven't done one in a couple of years, but I still come be every day to see what's going on at IAP...(I still turn almost every day, but prefer bowls, peppermills, and other turnings)... if there's a thread that's not of interest to me or not in the spirit of just plain good conversation, then I move on... I enjoy the camaraderie of the forum and it's my routine to look in while I do my morning coffee.  I don't play personalities and if someone else is, I'm not obligated to comment or even read... I think we can disagree without being disagreeable... 

I've met a number of people of the years I've been turning that think their work is superior, or their way the only way or any other form of egotism or narcissism, both here and at some of the craft shows I've attended... mostly those people amuse me.


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## Dalepenkala (Sep 27, 2015)

Quote:
(((Another fix is for people such as yourself to continue raising interesting topics, but I recognize that there is an unpleasant result to that sometimes. I realize that many times they degenerate into flame wars because every community has a few inhabitants who delight in disturbing the peace. )))

Jeff this is so true and that is why I turned to other social medias! There are several here that cause these issues and that's why I hardly even post here anymore.

Glad to see your watching this thread Jeff!


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## ChewTerr (Sep 27, 2015)

Speaking as anecdotal evidence that new people are joining and posting, I definitely have been getting some good answers.  While less questions might be asked, it feels like there are still plenty of responses to give good solutions to issues from us novices.


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## jeff (Sep 27, 2015)

plantman said:


> jeff said:
> 
> 
> > We could try an experiment.
> ...



You mean the little red or green silhouette? That tells you if the person who made that post is on line or off line.  Generally, hovering over any icon here will give you a hint as to it's purpose (usually!)

Edit: Ooops, I see JT already answered this :biggrin:


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## plantman (Sep 27, 2015)

jeff said:


> plantman said:
> 
> 
> > jeff said:
> ...



Thank you Jeff and John for the answers to my questions !! Just goes to prove that you CAN teach an old dog new tricks !!   Jim  S


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## OLDMAN5050 (Sep 28, 2015)

I find the forum sometimes turns into a popularity contest.... that turns me off....Some members do excellent work and have no comments.... Others, well just look for yourself...


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## keithbyrd (Sep 28, 2015)

I have been on here for 4 years and have seen a lot of changes and also have changed.  Time is a precious commodity and I don't like wasting time trying to find out who is winning the l'm right you're wrong contest.  Sometimes I don't comment because I don't want to get into those or have someone take my comments wrong.

3-4 years ago I used to post questions or problems and would get a fairly decent response (decent in terms of number of people offering answers or suggestions)  Then we went through a couple of years where it seemed like there was almost no response.  I got frustrated and generally quit posting - just skimmed others posts.  Last couple of questions I posted here there was a small response but I got some good answers - very valuable!

I think we have so many people on here now who are very comfortable with social media and are used to being on someplace - ie facebook or other forums but not being involved.  The value of this forum is increased by getting involved.

In the past 4 years I have learned a lot from  the good folks on this forum and find it very valuable.  I would like to see more involvement and less surfing by the members.  When I say involvement I really am referring to constructive involvement.  There is no reason to get on and criticize or attack people or  their work or their ideas.  Constructive criticism is extremely valuable - criticism - not so much.


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## BSea (Sep 28, 2015)

maxwell_smart007 said:


> Bob Wemm said:
> 
> 
> > I'll chuck my 10 cents worth in here, not that I have much experience in Pen Making, but I enjoy this conversation.
> ...


I also like seeing your bowls.  But I know I don't comment in your threads enough. Frankly, seeing other things people make is refreshing.


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## rd_ab_penman (Sep 28, 2015)

WOW!


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## jttheclockman (Sep 28, 2015)

rd_ab_penman said:


> WOW!



Care to elaborate??? No WOW pens here


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## BSea (Sep 28, 2015)

OLDMAN5050 said:


> I find the forum sometimes turns into a popularity contest.... that turns me off....Some members do excellent work and have no comments.... Others, well just look for yourself...


This is true on almost every forum I've been in.  The more active people tend to be more popular.  And their pens get more notice and comments than others do. I'm guilty of it too.  I'll tend to comment more on pens made by people I know.  The may or may not be "Popular", but since I know them, I tend to recognize their avatar, and I'm more likely to view, and post to their threads. I'm not saying it's right or wrong.  It's just human nature.

Part of it also comes down to time.  I'd like to encourage every new members who post pens.  But it isn't realistic to post something on everyone's work.  

Another factor that plays into it the number of comments is the quality of pictures, and how unique a pen is.  Many people comment on the "WOW" factor of the pens shown.  But that is so relative to the individual and the number of pens they've looked at in this forum.  Lets face it, a walnut slimline with a decent finish will WOW someone whose never had a hand made pen.  But here, it wouldn't get noticed.  Even a really nice pen with poor pictures won't get many comments.  Sometimes I think the most popular pens are the ones with the best photo's.


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## jttheclockman (Sep 28, 2015)

BSea said:


> OLDMAN5050 said:
> 
> 
> > I find the forum sometimes turns into a popularity contest.... that turns me off....Some members do excellent work and have no comments.... Others, well just look for yourself...
> ...




Bob

You make good points and the one about photos is probably true. But it always annoys me when the first line in someone's discription of their pen they show is "Please Excuse the poor quality photos" because i used my cell phone or some other excuse. There are many articles in the library and also an on going tutorial being given about different aspects of taking good quality photos. There is no need to have museum quality photos here but having decent photos is so easy. It does not take much equipment. Even todays cell phones do a decent job. There are many photo.editing sites too. If you take the time to make the pen why not take a few more minutes to show the pen in a way to do it justice. 

I agree every site becomes a popularity thing and it works both ways. Some people gravitate to the ones that post more often but they can also turn others off because of that. You will never please everyone for sure.


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## Carl Fisher (Sep 28, 2015)

I can speak to why I don't post that often anymore.

I think once you've been around long enough that you get tired of either repeating the same things, reading the same questions, watching the same arguments, etc... So it's easier just to look at the subject line of a post and make a snap judgement that "oh, someone else will respond to that as it's been covered dozens of times over", or "seen that discussion 100 times, no need to read it again".  I look at the new posts list and if something unique catches my eye, I'll drop in and read it and occasionally comment if it's an interesting topic, otherwise many times I don't even open the post. 

Same for SOYP. It's not that I don't like encouraging people, but after a while you sorta get numb to seeing kit pens with different clothes on. It's the same reason I don't often post in SOYP much anymore. I feel if I've done a version of the pen more than a few times I just don't see any reason to post every pen I make. I'll post something that I find unique or some new skill that I've acquired like my last DE fountain pen, but unless it strikes me as something that would catch my interest, I typically don't post it. Five years ago it was a different story and I was posting almost every pen that came off the lathe because it was new and exciting for me.

I think that's just a natural course and I've watched quite a few go through this same progression in my tenure. So many names that have left for good or only comment once in a while.


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## skiprat (Sep 28, 2015)

OLDMAN5050 said:


> I find the forum sometimes turns into a popularity contest.... that turns me off....Some members do excellent work and have no comments.... Others, well just look for yourself...



Oh boy :redface:.....this is the reason that I stopped entering any IAP pen contest... and never will again...
I was told that the ONLY reason I won a contest was because it was based on popularity of the member rather than the pen..... I was told this by a member that is still far more 'popular' than me...

I'm so sick and bloody tired of people whining that they could make pens as good as anyone if they had the tools that the next guy had. Yes, the tools help, but it actually takes a bit more than just tools too...:wink:
This was the main reason I made videos of making a stainless steel bolt pen on a wood lathe. 

I'm sorry if I'm more popular than you. But perhaps if you participate more and share more, then you too can .....

Jeesh......sometimes I hate this place.....


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## jttheclockman (Sep 28, 2015)

skiprat said:


> OLDMAN5050 said:
> 
> 
> > I find the forum sometimes turns into a popularity contest.... that turns me off....Some members do excellent work and have no comments.... Others, well just look for yourself...
> ...




That is summing it up sir. This is so true. Even if you have the tools you need to know what to do with them. Thinking outside the lines. Use the imagination that God gave us all. There are so many more ideas that have not even shown up here. Sometimes I just find it mind-boggling  how we become so nearsided in the pens we make. To me having a person such as yourself is such an asset that all can benefit from. There is no down side. Plain and simple. We need more. That is somewhat this thread is about. 

We get the ugly side but what can be done to move us forward and once again get people talking pen making.


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## stonepecker (Sep 28, 2015)

skiprat said:


> OLDMAN5050 said:
> 
> 
> > I find the forum sometimes turns into a popularity contest.... that turns me off....Some members do excellent work and have no comments.... Others, well just look for yourself...
> ...


 


I have never HATED any thing about the IAP. That includes the membership.

Have I been disappointed with certain members........YES. But there are so many good people here that the few don't matter. After all, there is always someone else that either will answer my question or explain things to me.

We talk about 'newbies' and the repeating of questions. I just remind everyone that at one time, you were the new person. And as far as looking it up in the library........that doesn't always answer the question. EVEN after looking at the teaching or reading the past forums.....there are times I am more confused then before I started.

Lately, things have seem to been better then a few years ago. I believe that the Moderators are doing a great job. And some of us have been doing great is self-police-ing. I bite my tongue and I move on. I know I can't be fought with when I say "You are right." ...... and walk away.
You can't argue with someone that is agreeing with you. And there are times I know I am right but why waste my breath.

I know this is a little long. I just wanted to explain to the more season turners that sometimes it takes a day to understand what is being said. Sometimes a year. And then there are thetimes when you can't understand no matter how hard you try.

I LOVE the IAP. Just not everything about it.


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## mredburn (Sep 28, 2015)

There are cycles in every hobby and a certain rate of attrition. This one is no exception. Carl is a perfect example.  You move through the cycles from beginner to seasoned turner and along the way maybe you decide your happy at the level your at.  Maybe you will or wont buy better tools or invest more time in advanced skills and pens. Maybe you move on to a new hobby and revisit this one from time to time. Maybe your circle of friends move on or away  or Life gets in the way, your health can decline, for what ever reason you just dont post as much. 

Better tools can mean better results easier, but you still need design skills and dedication to really make pens that stand out. I  constantly advocated that the toughest part of anything is Designing.  With enough patience and  persistence you can master the physical skills but the ability to design is what makes the difference.


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## Cwalker935 (Sep 28, 2015)

skiprat said:


> OLDMAN5050 said:
> 
> 
> > I find the forum sometimes turns into a popularity contest.... that turns me off....Some members do excellent work and have no comments.... Others, well just look for yourself...
> ...


 
Skiprat: After seeing some your incredible work, I do not understand how anyone could say that you were winning based on popularity!  I thought that maybe you had been banned from contests so that others could have a chance of winning.

My biggest complaint is that some of the older more experienced turners out there rarely show their work.  Maybe it is not new to them but it may be new to others like myself that have only be making pens for a few years and are not long time members of the forum.

As for naysayers, the back and forth sniping is some times entertaining.  What is hard to understand is why it sometimes turns personal very quickly.


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## Carl Fisher (Sep 28, 2015)

Cwalker935 said:


> As for naysayers, the back and forth sniping is some times entertaining.  What is hard to understand is why it sometimes turns personal very quickly.



Because people take it personally when their opinions are brought into question or refuted. Human nature unfortunately. Also take out things like tone inflection and body language by typing it out in text and it spawns the ever popular flame war that has been around since the BBS days due to a simple misunderstanding of the intent of what was said.


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## Smitty37 (Sep 28, 2015)

Cwalker935 said:


> skiprat said:
> 
> 
> > OLDMAN5050 said:
> ...


Well in my opinion, right there is some of the problem...why assume someone who disagrees is a "naysayer.  That  makes it personal.  We should try very hard to address the comment, not the commentator.


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## Cwalker935 (Sep 28, 2015)

Dang, I was trying to be positive.  Smitty, I have never thought of the term "naysayer" as being personal.  I meant it in the sense of someone that is disagreeing.  

Merriam Webster defines naysayer as: one who denies, refuses, opposes, or is skeptical or cynical about something. That describes me in numerous ways and I do not think bad of myself.  On the other hand, the Urban dictionary defines naysayer as: One who frequently engages in excessive complaining, negative banter and/or a genuinely poor and downbeat attitude. That can certainly be taken personal.

This sort of illustrates how things can go awry, I meant it one way and you read it a different way.  Hmm, maybe I need to call you a bad name or something.  Just kidding.


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## skiprat (Sep 28, 2015)

Wayne ( Stone Pecker) you are correct and I shouldn't have said 'hate' , Of course I actually love coming here and love the place too.  Sometimes I get frustrated and engage my mouth before my brain.:frown:

I don't hate anything or anyone and it's a pity I aimed my frustrations at Oldman5050. Hopefully he wasn't aiming his comments at me.


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## Smitty37 (Sep 28, 2015)

Cwalker935 said:


> Dang, I was trying to be positive.  Smitty, I have never thought of the term "naysayer" as being personal.  I meant it in the sense of someone that is disagreeing.
> 
> Merriam Webster defines naysayer as: one who denies, refuses, opposes, or is skeptical or cynical about something. That describes me in numerous ways and I do not think bad of myself.  On the other hand, the Urban dictionary defines naysayer as: One who frequently engages in excessive complaining, negative banter and/or a genuinely poor and downbeat attitude. That can certainly be taken personal.
> 
> This sort of illustrates how things can go awry, I meant it one way and you read it a different way.  Hmm, maybe I need to call you a bad name or something.  Just kidding.


But, naysayer is a noun. What I was pointing out is illustrated by this: Saying "You can't do that" and saying "That can't be done" are two possible answers essentially if spoken in person would most likely be taken to mean "That can't be done".  Yet here it would often be taken to have a personal meaning.


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## Hubert H (Sep 28, 2015)

Good discussion - I guess I have a good ignore button in my brain.  IAP has been great for me and I just overlook the rubbish some people may post.  I look at IAP ever day - maybe I should comment/post more.  We did loose someone about a year ago that people seemed to like disagreeing with.  I had learned a lot from him even if he was a little on the blunt side.

Well to sum up my 2 cents -  Jeff, I sure do appreciate IAP you and all of those that help you.  If it can be made better - good - but lets remember that it is still a GREAT site.


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## dogcatcher (Sep 29, 2015)

I don't post very often and rarely ask a question.  I can get answer quicker with hitting search.  The answers are all here, all one has to do is use the search function.  But I do go through most of the threads on a daily basis. 

As to the downturn of activity, it is the end of the summer, for a lot of members it is the last days to get out and enjoy the outdoors.  All of the forums I am on slow down in the summer months, but pick up again after the weather starts to turn cold.   I have seen this thread in different fashions on the callmaking forums, the general woodturning forums, the hunting forums, pipemaking forum, the woodworking forum etc.  The only big exception is the fishing forum, it picks up in the summer and slows down on the winter.  

Give it a month or so and the activity will increase.   I have more "inside" time in late fall and winter, in the summer and spring we are on the go, we travel, we work and play outside.  Woodturning, penturning, callmaking etc., is on semi hold if I can go fishing or take a trip somewhere.


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## edicehouse (Sep 29, 2015)

A new turner asks "How do I do a CA finish" where 5 years ago it was more of a trade secret (just using as an example), they would get links to videos, well thought out answers, and now they get "do a search".

What is the age group?  When I first joined just over 4 years ago there were a lot more posts about where to "buy" things, and that seems to be limited to the vender forums now.

Also if you have been on the site more than 6 months or turned more then 10 pens how often are you going to SOYP a cigar acrylic from woodcraft?

Also I am guilty of this, not commenting on people showing pens.  There are a few makers and name dropping get 25% or more so views in SOYP.


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## SteveJ (Sep 29, 2015)

I really enjoy the IAP.  I believe that the growth in numbers often results in less posts.  It seems less personal.  You have to look harder for the posts from people whose work you appreciate.  But looking back at some of the posts from the "good old days" will reveal that often they were dealing with the same concerns we have expressed here.  

Check out this thread: http://www.penturners.org/forum/f13/pentarsia-15888/

It contains a beautiful pen.  Complaints about favoritism.  Controversy.  Anger and just plain weirdness (check out the final page with a discussion of someone mistakenly calling some guy a girl and people getting their undies in a bundle about it!)

Long live the IAP!  Always changing and ever the same.


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## brownsfn2 (Sep 29, 2015)

skiprat said:


> I'm so sick and bloody tired of people whining that they could make pens as good as anyone if they had the tools that the next guy had. Yes, the tools help, but it actually takes a bit more than just tools too...



I can understand the feeling a little bit.  My wife takes excellent pictures that have won awards and contests.  People always tell her "You must have a nice camera to take such awesome pictures."

I always tell them that it is strange that if the equipment is what makes her photos great then why did the cooking not improve when I bought her a new oven?

By the way I think my posts would be so much more accepted and listened to if I had the same computer keyboard you have.  I am sure it is a nice one.


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## Smitty37 (Sep 29, 2015)

skiprat said:


> OLDMAN5050 said:
> 
> 
> > I find the forum sometimes turns into a popularity contest.... that turns me off....Some members do excellent work and have no comments.... Others, well just look for yourself...
> ...


Would that be the English Language version of the American English "I'm sick and tired"?:biggrin:


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## wood-of-1kind (Sep 29, 2015)

We "used" to have pen makers that were true "characters" that had a lot to offer including stirring the pot once in a while. Sorry to say but the environment here has become more sedate and sterile. Not meant as knock against the site nor new members but simply an observation on my behalf.


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## Chasper (Sep 29, 2015)

I'm happy to see this thread.  I'm guilty of posting less, my posts per day count has fallen continuously for several years.  I posted in SOYP once or twice 7-8 year ago and never since.  I don't open posts from SOYP, not much interested in seeing your pens, never was.  I like to set my own direction.  I often make an effort to reply to questions from beginners, I was a beginner once and I learned from more experienced turners, I like to pay it back a little.

One observation that I have is that posts come and go so quickly now.  An interesting post on a subject I want to know more about comes up, a handful of responses come in during first 24 hours and then it gets buried and ignored.  My memory of this site when I joined in 2007 is that the same posts stayed active for much longer and fewer new posts were started.  The discussions were more lively.  I miss that.

For my part it is pen making success that keeps me away and less active when I do visit.  We sell a lot of pens, all my extra time outside of my day job is spent in front of the lathe.  I get the feedback I need about the pens I make from the buyers who come into our display at art shows.  When they walk away with one of our pens and leave some of their money behind I know they like what we are doing.  I miss the lively conversations that used to occur in the Marketing and Shows forum.

Over the years I've rarely visited the site without learning something useful.  This site always had been and remains an outstanding resource.


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## NittanyLion (Sep 29, 2015)

See:

http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/07/10/remembrance-of-message-boards-past/?_r=0

Why I've Posted 27,000 Times to One Online Forum


Both sum up what is happening here in my opinion.  What makes the IAP so successful, is now causing a drop in participation......too much info, tough to navigate, no instant gratification, etc. 

 I see it in Business as well.  You better grab someone's attention in the first sentence or two in an email, or you loose them. It's the same reason that texting has replaced email. Social media and technology has changed everything.....good or bad, it's really had an impact and message boards are dying.

And please don't beat me up too bad for saying this.....or I may never post again:biggrin:


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## jttheclockman (Sep 29, 2015)

Over 2300 views, 64 posts to the thread. When i first posted the thread I wasn't so sure where it would lead or if anyone would pay attention to it. I look back at the original posting and then look through the responses and I have read them all, I see some disturbing  but truthful answers. There were many reasons given for the fall-off of participation and the one that sours things is the bickering and how it has a negative effect on the community. 

The other reasons of having this wealth of info here at your fingertips now is a product of years gone by and the work of the membership. Not having to ask as many questions because of it. I get that. 

People being busy with more things in their lives that are way more important than visiting and spending time typing in a message board. I get that. 

Having more social sites to visit and getting info quicker is one I do not get. Those social sites are so sterile and so rediculous in that everyone has to tell the world every little move they make throughout their day is to me dumb. I will never get that. 

It was even brought up that today there is less new materials and ideas to work with and develop in the world of pen making and this one I totally disagree. Being creative is something that is inbred in all of us.

With all the responses so far I see reasons for drop off but I do not see ideas to reverse it. I do not buy the theory of time of season for being a huge difference maker. We all live in different parts of the world. 

I would love to see some more positive responses to make this site resounding again and get more chatter or share more ideas. I do know one thing that needs to stop and soon is the bickering and the exchange of cheap shots. Also just because someone is more creative than most we do not need to hold this against them but celebrate what they have to offer. We need more people like this. We lost too many over the years. We need to open our minds and challenge ourselves more. 

Maybe there is no more to give and this is what this site is. Maybe pen turning has become too mundane and boring for all. Maybe we all sit back and accept what we have here and call it a day. I sure hope not. I am hoping by the end of the year I can get some good news healthwise and it allows me to return to my shop. I will then try to lead by example for I have a few ideas to try out on that little round stick. Untill then I will amuse myself with threads like this.

Happy turning


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## Smitty37 (Sep 29, 2015)

jttheclockman said:


> Over 2300 views, 64 posts to the thread. When i first posted the thread I wasn't so sure where it would lead or if anyone would pay attention to it. I look back at the original posting and then look through the responses and I have read them all, I see some disturbing  but truthful answers. There were many reasons given for the fall-off of participation and the one that sours things is the bickering and how it has a negative effect on the community.
> 
> The other reasons of having this wealth of info here at your fingertips now is a product of years gone by and the work of the membership. Not having to ask as many questions because of it. I get that.
> 
> ...


JT, I am going to guess that you will find that the drop off in posts correlates pretty well with when IAP made the decision to tighten political and religious post (among others) to rein in 'flames' and 'tighten' what vendors could post about their products in threads (it was called advertising) and created vendor catalogs and later vendor forums.  In my opinion the desired and successful implementation of all of those things had the effect of reducing both the number of threads and the number of posts.  I'd almost guess that "Casual Conversation" has fallen off by at least half.

Additionally, adding the "like" button reduced the number of posts in SYOP threads - I have seen some of them that might have had 20 likes and 2 or 3 posts often 7 or 8 likes and no posts.  

I think all of the above were done to reduce clutter and they succeeded. I understand your goal is to increase threads and posts "of substance" - I think the reason you aren't getting many answers to that side of your question might well be because there aren't any.   I can't think of any.  I don't even read over half of the threads now and don't respond to more than half of the ones I do read because I have nothing to contribute even if the thread is interesting to me.


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## edstreet (Sep 29, 2015)

John, does this help any?


http://www.penturners.org/forum/f18/where-have-all-flowers-gone-109954/


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## Rick_G (Sep 29, 2015)

I guess I am one of those that is guilty of not posting much any more, not that I ever posted a lot.  I started turning mainly to make pens to support our military and to date have sent over 200 pens, from slim lines to a baron FP to one Warrant Officer that collected FP's.  Since each pen went with a letter of support I've got some nice reply's the best from a major that had used the pen that morning to sign the orders to bring his guys back from Afghanistan. I've got hints on selling from this site but in this area when people start clutching at their chest when you mention $20 for a ti gold slim I gave that up.  I don't post in SOYP much because to be honest turning a kit out of wood after turning pens for over 5 years is not much to show off.  Being retired and with a bad back I spend my days in my toyroom - I mean my workshop for a couple hours and then sit at the computer for a while.  i usually check the site a couple times a day but for some reason generally only look at the home page (I'm likely missing a lot)  If there is a thread that looks interesting I read it and if I think I have something to add I reply but usually by the time I get there 4 or 5 others have already said what I would have.  
For those who post mainly useless or derogatory comments to stir the pot (You know who you are) I spent 10 years of my life in the military defending your right to be wrong so......


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## jttheclockman (Sep 29, 2015)

edstreet said:


> John, does this help any?
> 
> 
> http://www.penturners.org/forum/f18/where-have-all-flowers-gone-109954/




Well Ed it is not a case of help but it seems that back on 4/2013 when Roy asked that question it basically had the same context of what I asked or observed. It also looks like some of the same responses back then are still prevalent today. Just 2 years later.

Maybe Smitty is right there is no answer to the latter part of the equation. It is what it is. Take it for what its worth. The changing of the guard will take the site down the path they choose. 

I will try to still be part of this when I can.


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## edstreet (Sep 30, 2015)

jttheclockman said:


> Well Ed it is not a case of help but it seems that back on 4/2013 when Roy asked that question it basically had the same context of what I asked or observed. It also looks like some of the same responses back then are still prevalent today. Just 2 years later.  Maybe Smitty is right there is no answer to the latter part of the equation. It is what it is. Take it for what its worth. The changing of the guard will take the site down the path they choose.  I will try to still be part of this when I can.



What later part of the equation?

Also .... Changing of the guard??? Ownership changing? Someone else get fired? I'm not sure what you are referencing here so care to expand?


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## jttheclockman (Sep 30, 2015)

edstreet said:


> jttheclockman said:
> 
> 
> > Well Ed it is not a case of help but it seems that back on 4/2013 when Roy asked that question it basically had the same context of what I asked or observed. It also looks like some of the same responses back then are still prevalent today. Just 2 years later.  Maybe Smitty is right there is no answer to the latter part of the equation. It is what it is. Take it for what its worth. The changing of the guard will take the site down the path they choose.  I will try to still be part of this when I can.
> ...




Later part of the equation is reference to the two parts of the question. Why (first part) and how to fix (later part)

Changing of the guard= old members out or leaving and newer members coming on board. You have so many new members joining everyday and hopefully with them they bring fresh ideas. 

Hope that spells it out for you.


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## Bob Wemm (Sep 30, 2015)

JT. I have a feeling that Smitty is as close to the answer as anyone, I don't think there is a real answer to the question. Times change, we all change and a lot of us older members still think that things should be the same as they were years ago.
The "changing of the guard" is absolutely going to happen, whether we like it or not, and as is evident now, everything is changing before our eyes and the only thing we can do is get on with what ever happens.
Thank you for starting this thread and I hope that you can get back to turning soon.

Bob


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## Cwalker935 (Sep 30, 2015)

In an effort to boost participation in the SYOP forum, I just bumped two pens back to the front page.  While they are kit pens they are both nicely done and IMO excellent pairings of kit and blank.  Go have a look.


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## Chasper (Sep 30, 2015)

NittanyLion said:


> See:
> 
> http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/07/10/remembrance-of-message-boards-past/?_r=0
> 
> ...



The two links you provide make compelling explanations for the decline of message boards, and I find myself in full agreement.  At the same time I can't help but wonder how to explain the incredible current success of Reddit and Quora here in the waning years of the message board phenomena.


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## C. Scott (Sep 30, 2015)

John,

When I join in 2004 I had already been making pens for several years and I saw the IAP as a great forum (still the best!) for the pen turning community.  At that time my pens were slightly mediocre.  Fit was good and I learned a lot on my own, but I didn't know how to CA and thinking outside of the box well...

Guys like Bruce Boone, Eagle, Ed Davidson, Russ Fairfield & Richard Kleinheinz (sp?)inspired me to try things and challenged me to question what my self-perceived pen making abilities were and what they could be.  Could I make a pen as good as theirs?  Maybe, if I was willing to try and because of them, I learned the skills I have now.  I consider my pens first rate (although EVERY SINGLE ONE HAS AT LEAST ONE MISTAKE IN IT).

I have Monty to "blame" for me learning a CA finish, thanks a lot!     "Oh, you've never done a CA finish?  Oh you've got to try it!"   (I think I've forgotten how to put on a friction finish.  LOL!)

Later on guys like Skiprat and Greeneyedblack (just to name a few) inspired and amazed me, but like many have said we change and the season of life that each of us are in changes.

I've got nine (9) kids now and so my time is very limited, but I still get to make a few pens, just no where near what I used to do.

I still love the site and when I do get on (maybe 5 times a week) I usually learn something.  I hardly ask questions because of the "search" feature and I don't want to waste someone's time when I can more than likely find the answer myself.

As far as flaming goes.  It's to be expected, I try not to be thinned skinned.  Not saying it's right, but stuff like that I just have to "blow it off".

I think that the IAP has been a "shortcut" for the success of many pen builders and is still a great forum.

Keep up the great work guys!

That's just my musings if you will.


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## Smitty37 (Sep 30, 2015)

NittanyLion said:


> See:
> 
> http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/07/10/remembrance-of-message-boards-past/?_r=0
> 
> ...


 One of the bad effects (in my opinion) of the advances in technology is that it seems to encourage speaking without thinking, answering the wrong question and not reading what the other person said before responding.  When email first became available where I worked, emails were as carefully constructed as memo's on paper were, everything was thought through as though you would have to defend it in a meeting or to higher management. Not so today and not so with texting.


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## BackyardSmokin (Sep 30, 2015)

As a "newbie" to this forum, penturning and woodworking in general, I find this site to be wealth of information.  I have been lurking and searching for a while now and with the search function I have found many of the answers to my questions.  This site has provided me many ideas on projects and ways of accomplishing what I want to do with my limited tool set.

Reading through the threads they have shown me that there are more ways to do things.  I find those threads with a healthy and lively debate on the pros and cons of how to do something the most valuable.  However, I get turned off when the thread turns into a flame war.

There is a quote from Star Trek: the Next Generation that I believe rings true today, "They want instant knowledge, instant power and gratification".  People want to do one search and find an exact answer.  If the answer they find does not work for them they bash that answer.  They are unwilling to learn that there is not one blanket answers but the answer changes as the variables change.  When this happens, some of those that are willing to help tend to give up in helping others again.  On the same note, others do not want to search they just want to post their question and get an answer even though the question was posted previously.  This leads to those that have helped in past being frustrated because the original poster did not use the search function and thus leaving a snarky remark or not posting at all.  This then turns off the original poster.  (I personally have been guilty of doing both on other forums).

On a side note, this is not only happening in forums but in life as well.  I have friend with whom I have shared pics of some of my turnings, wood carvings, intarsia and fret work.  After seeing my work,my friend wants to get involved into woodworking. they have taken classes at their local Rockler and Woodcraft but it only wets their appetite even more.  We reach out to their local woodworking group to see if there is a way that someone in the group could show my friend more before diving in and buying equipment.  The response from the group was that my friend needed to pay $400 for the membership dues then $100 per hour for a 1 on 1 session.  Needless to say this turned my friend off.  To us it looks like the group is out to make money over helping others get involved into woodworking.


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## jeff (Sep 30, 2015)

NittanyLion said:


> See:
> 
> http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/07/10/remembrance-of-message-boards-past/?_r=0
> 
> ...



I'm not ready to solicit pall bearers just yet :biggrin:

That first link was an interesting article, but I think it overstates the value of social media as a replacement for the community that a forum provides. 

I also completely agree that we have fewer posts and threads than in years past (we peaked in 2010). However, just because there is some amount of data in the archive about a particular subject doesn't mean that it's not productive to raise it again. 10 years ago there were threads on "what's the best tool for turning pens?" and little mention was made of carbide. I imagine that someday that question will be asked and we'll be talking about some new technology like inserts made from unobtainium or miracleum, or quantum deflagration of wood cells. Most topics are worth revisiting as new people join the mix and as technology and methods evolve.


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## Carl Fisher (Sep 30, 2015)

jeff said:


> ...
> I also completely agree that we have fewer posts and threads than in years past (we peaked in 2010). However, just because there is some amount of data in the archive about a particular subject doesn't mean that it's not productive to raise it again.
> ...



On the flip side there are some topics that come up so often that it turns some of the veterans off from even checking out certain forums. 

A good example of this is the constant barrage of CA questions, most of which are the same question that someone posted somewhere within the last 2 pages of threads. CA cracked glass look, CA lifting from the ends of the blank, CA fogging up, breaking CA from the bushings, CA application methods, etc... Perhaps we should enact sticky posts for some of these common FAQ type questions? Then it would free up posts for other new conversations that may be of more interest.

A great technique I've seen in use on very large forums is to have a single sticky in a given forum section that contains links to other good historical conversations on a given topic that comes up regularly. Lock the thread but give a forum moderator the ability to add or update it as needed. One of the 4Runner forums I'm on is huge but when I was getting involved these sticky posts were invaluable in helping me locate some of the most commonly asked questions complete with links to very good discussions on the topic.

Just some random thoughts that are probably not relevant to the topic of participation, but may help in how to locate and identify some of these past threads that deserve revisiting.


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## jttheclockman (Sep 30, 2015)

Carl you make a good point and to add to that certain technical problems will never change. Such as you mentioned CA problems. This is a big one and all started when we started using CA as a finish. What happens and I said this over and over again that sometimes answers get watered down so much so that the entire problem is not answered. The reason they get watered down is that they become so redundant and people do get tired of answering. That is why I refer people to do a search. Many times that answer gets frowned upon but it is a valuable tool here. 

In the segmenting forum I started a thread called "Why Blanks go Boom" 
http://www.penturners.org/forum/f179/why-blanks-go-boom-110385/
When I started that thread my intention was to have a place where someone could go for reasons as to why a blank blew up and it happens so many times and the question gets asked how can this happen. How can it be avoided. I do not know how many people use that or find it valuable. But if it were stickied at the top of the forum it would be easier to find. 

Might be something to look at.


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## Smitty37 (Sep 30, 2015)

jttheclockman said:


> Carl you make a good point and to add to that certain technical problems will never change. Such as you mentioned CA problems. This is a big one and all started when we started using CA as a finish. What happens and I said this over and over again that sometimes answers get watered down so much so that the entire problem is not answered. The reason they get watered down is that they become so redundant and people do get tired of answering. That is why I refer people to do a search. Many times that answer gets frowned upon but it is a valuable tool here.
> 
> In the segmenting forum I started a thread called "Why Blanks go Boom"
> http://www.penturners.org/forum/f179/why-blanks-go-boom-110385/
> ...


There is nothing wrong with referring a questioner to do a search, they might not even know about all the resources.  But, particularly with new members, it is nice  to give them at least a partial answer and tell them where to begin the search.


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## OLDMAN5050 (Sep 30, 2015)

skiprat said " I'm sorry that I am more popular than you,But perhaps if you participate more and share more, then you too can .....



     Such immature statements as these can keep people away and turn people off.  Over the years I have made over a thousand pens for the troops with the help of donations of kits from several vendors on this forum and have contributed quiet a bit to this forum till I was forced to go back to work last November due to my pension being cut in half.. Now an on the job injury has forced me to start drawing workers comp until I'm well (surgery on left knee Friday). I should not have posted on this conversation so I apologize for stirring the pot. I was just saying what I felt..


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## jeff (Sep 30, 2015)

Carl Fisher said:


> A great technique I've seen in use on very large forums is to have a single sticky in a given forum section that contains links to other good historical conversations on a given topic that comes up regularly. Lock the thread but give a forum moderator the ability to add or update it as needed. One of the 4Runner forums I'm on is huge but when I was getting involved these sticky posts were invaluable in helping me locate some of the most commonly asked questions complete with links to very good discussions on the topic.
> 
> Just some random thoughts that are probably not relevant to the topic of participation, but may help in how to locate and identify some of these past threads that deserve revisiting.



Chris (thewishman), Wayne (wracinowski), and Edgar (edohmann) are working on collecting links for just such a purpose.

This thread, and this one, are examples.

I'd love to be able to put lists of consolidated links on the front page that answer the most common questions. Of course the problem is that there are often multiple, subjective answers to some questions. I think we could accommodate those by just giving multiple options for each topic.


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## skiprat (Sep 30, 2015)

David ( Oldman5050 ) you are free to voice your opinion as much as me or the next guy. I commend your making of so many pens for the troops and I am positive they were gratefully received.  The gratitude from those service men and women can't be measured by 'likes' on a forum such as this. The warm feeling you get from giving those pens just doesn't compare to the silly quantity of Likes or replies I or others may get on a hobby forum. 
But I think you know what I was referring to when I said to participate and share more. I *didn't* mean in real life outside of this little forum. I just meant that I don't remember you participating here that much. 
I will not compare my contributions to society outside this forum with you but rest assured that I have done my part too. :wink:

It was unfortunate that you made your original comment and even more unfortunate that I let it get under my skin for a moment.  I did actually try and amend my post, but ran out of time. I did however come back and apologise. :wink:

If you are still making pens for the troops, or any other worthy cause, then please PM me your address and I will send you a bunch of kits and blanks. 

No hard feelings, OK?

Regards
Steven








OLDMAN5050 said:


> skiprat said " I'm sorry that I am more popular than you,But perhaps if you participate more and share more, then you too can .....
> 
> 
> 
> Such immature statements as these can keep people away and turn people off.  Over the years I have made over a thousand pens for the troops with the help of donations of kits from several vendors on this forum and have contributed quiet a bit to this forum till I was forced to go back to work last November due to my pension being cut in half.. Now an on the job injury has forced me to start drawing workers comp until I'm well (surgery on left knee Friday). I should not have posted on this conversation so I apologize for stirring the pot. I was just saying what I felt..


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## Carl Fisher (Sep 30, 2015)

jeff said:


> Chris (thewishman), Wayne (wracinowski), and Edgar (edohmann) are working on collecting links for just such a purpose.
> 
> This thread, and this one, are examples.
> 
> I'd love to be able to put lists of consolidated links on the front page that answer the most common questions. Of course the problem is that there are often multiple, subjective answers to some questions. I think we could accommodate those by just giving multiple options for each topic.



Good place to start.

I was actually thinking more along the lines of something like this: 
Pre-Purchase Info, Modifications, Write-Ups, Quick Links, and FAQ's - Toyota 4Runner Forum - Largest 4Runner Forum


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## jeff (Sep 30, 2015)

Carl Fisher said:


> jeff said:
> 
> 
> > Chris (thewishman), Wayne (wracinowski), and Edgar (edohmann) are working on collecting links for just such a purpose.
> ...



That's much like we're planning. 

Interesting read too! I drive a 4Runner.


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## TurtleTom (Oct 2, 2015)

*Brutally honest is not a virtue.*

I suspect one of the reasons the site is not as popular as it could be has to do with automatic subscription.  I can't think of another forum I've used that made you subscribe to a thread where you had posted a message.  I just forget.  I have a program called ChromeHistoryView that gives me all the sites I've visited since Adam was a caveman.  Without it I think I'd have  posted about half as much as I have.  And maybe you'd all be more cheerful for that.  
And yes, I think we'd all drive Toyotas if we could afford them.  I favor the Hilus, the truck model Top Gear was unable to destroy.  Pulled out and lost in the ocean, set fire, driven into trees, God only knows what else and finally put on top of a 23 story building and demolished the building.  Drove it out.  Oh yes, no spare parts were allowed.  You might want to watch this, parts one and two:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnWKz7Cthkk
Cheers.


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## SDB777 (Oct 2, 2015)

Forums generally have 'cliché'(or clicks, I know not the correct spelling).  This one does, and most know whom is in it, I'm not....so I don't post on the topics that are started or commented by those in the post, and I've noticed they do not comment on my post either.


I have noticed, if you want to get a LOT of people posting on a topic that gets started....offer something for free!  You'll have people that joined 12 years ago with one post(under their username) blowing up your inbox!!!  {guessing this isn't the type of postings being discussed here}








Jeff, what would happen if the "like" button was removed, as an experiment for a week?  Do you think the postings would increase in relation to views on a topic?






Scott (click the cliché or cliché the click) B


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## BSea (Oct 2, 2015)

TurtleTom said:


> I suspect one of the reasons the site is not as popular as it could be has to do with automatic subscription.  I can't think of another forum I've used that made you subscribe to a thread where you had posted a message.  I just forget.


It does have automatic subscriptions.  Click on *User CP*.  Then click on *Edit Options*.  It's in the section called *Thread Display Options*.



TurtleTom said:


> And yes, I think we'd all drive Toyotas if we could afford them.  I favor the Hilus, the truck model Top Gear was unable to destroy.  Pulled out and lost in the ocean, set fire, driven into trees, God only knows what else and finally put on top of a 23 story building and demolished the building.  Drove it out.  Oh yes, no spare parts were allowed.  You might want to watch this, parts one and two:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnWKz7Cthkk
> Cheers.


Now that is very cool!  I actually saw the episode on BBC America.


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## jeff (Oct 2, 2015)

SDB777 said:


> Jeff, what would happen if the "like" button was removed, as an experiment for a week?  Do you think the postings would increase in relation to views on a topic?



And just last week I was reading how the number of likes were a potentially good indicator of wow-ness. :biggrin:

Yes, I can turn it off just for a particular forum or site-wide. 

I don't think a week is enough time for an experiment like that. 

Here is an interesting discussion and poll regarding the like button. There are some widely varying opinions on it.


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## jttheclockman (Oct 2, 2015)

It was brought up recently here about reasons a forum fails and one is social media and how people are always on the move and time is short. The like button fit right into that mentality. Hit the like button and you are gone. That has become our way of life these days. The younger the person the more this applies. Also people use it because they are afraid what they type will be misread and taken out of context and so to avoid embarrassment that is all they do. I have no problem seeing it there because I rarely use it and if I do I add my comments. I think it does give the OP a sense of value in what they posted. But a well placed comment can only drive the point home and really tell the OP things they need to hear. Can not get that with a like button. 

What I gather from all the posts here on this topic one thing keeps coming to my mind. That is we need to slow down and take the site for what it is and meant to be. A community where the members share ideas and post questions to problems. It is not a twitter account. it is not a facebook site it is not one of the other fast and frenzied social media  sites or apps that people have on their phones. Think of it as an old fashion telephone where you actually talk to people. You talk to people in the manner as if they were standing in front of you. Maybe we are just in a society where this is lost for good. I believe in new technology and advancement. But at times I think we need to step back and revisit the path we took to get there.

Have a great day.


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## SDB777 (Oct 2, 2015)

jeff said:


> SDB777 said:
> 
> 
> > Jeff, what would happen if the "like" button was removed, as an experiment for a week?  Do you think the postings would increase in relation to views on a topic?
> ...


 

Read all of the replies on the link you gave....  There were definitely some points that stood out above others(and I didn't click "Like" on any of them :biggrin: )

I can see where deleting the "Like" might hurt as much as help....




Scott (slow down and smell the coffee) B


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## vakmere (Oct 2, 2015)

jttheclockman said:


> What I gather from all the posts here on this topic one thing keeps coming to my mind. That is we need to slow down and take the site for what it is and meant to be. A community where the members share ideas and post questions to problems. It is not a twitter account. it is not a facebook site it is not one of the other fast and frenzied social media  sites or apps that people have on their phones. Think of it as an old fashion telephone where you actually talk to people. You talk to people in the manner as if they were standing in front of you. Maybe we are just in a society where this is lost for good. I believe in new technology and advancement. But at times I think we need to step back and revisit the path we took to get there.


 
Well done. I was thinking that before I read your reply. I think there has been more good conversation here than not. Someone will always want to poke the bees nest but that's life. There is something for everyone here. I really enjoy IAP and was recently surprised with a front page shared by so many others before me. This is a wonderful site for everyone new and experienced. Nobody should be hesitant to post out of fear of what someone might reply. This is heaven compared to the flamers on YouTube and Facebook. We should visit this topic in 10 years. Maybe there will be an IAP golf outing by then. On the golf course we will all see who has the better balls....


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## MesquiteMan (Oct 2, 2015)

SDB777 said:


> Forums generally have 'cliché'(or clicks, I know not the correct spelling).
> Scott (click the cliché or cliché the click) B



I think you meant Clique, Scott!

*cliché*
A phrase or opinion that is overused and betrays a lack of original thought.

*Clique*
In  the social sciences, a clique is a group of people who interact with  each other more regularly and intensely than others in the same setting.


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## 1080Wayne (Oct 2, 2015)

jttheclockman said:


> It was brought up recently here about reasons a forum fails and one is social media and how people are always on the move and time is short. The like button fit right into that mentality. Hit the like button and you are gone. That has become our way of life these days. The younger the person the more this applies. Also people use it because they are afraid what they type will be misread and taken out of context and so to avoid embarrassment that is all they do. I have no problem seeing it there because I rarely use it and if I do I add my comments. I think it does give the OP a sense of value in what they posted. But a well placed comment can only drive the point home and really tell the OP things they need to hear. Can not get that with a like button.
> 
> What I gather from all the posts here on this topic one thing keeps coming to my mind. That is we need to slow down and take the site for what it is and meant to be. A community where the members share ideas and post questions to problems. It is not a twitter account. it is not a facebook site it is not one of the other fast and frenzied social media  sites or apps that people have on their phones. Think of it as an old fashion telephone where you actually talk to people. You talk to people in the manner as if they were standing in front of you. Maybe we are just in a society where this is lost for good. I believe in new technology and advancement. But at times I think we need to step back and revisit the path we took to get there.
> 
> Have a great day.



Was going to click the `Like` button , but managed to restrain myself .


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## Smitty37 (Oct 2, 2015)

*What are we discussing now?*

I'm lost - a couple of days being a little busy and I don't have a clue where this thread has gone but it almost looks like it's come a full circle.  

I can think of one forum that I would add .... a 'sad news forum' . It does not have to be called that but it would be the place where people could post when they lose a loved one,  are going for surgery, lose a pet, hurt themselves or that sort of thing.  Those post usually bring out a number of responses from people who feel compassion for the OP and want to offer condolences, sympathy or encouragement.


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## skiprat (Oct 2, 2015)

Leroy, I asked the same question a couple of years ago, but nothing came of it.
http://www.penturners.org/forum/f11/more-formal-forum-needed-perhaps-113850/


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## TurtleTom (Oct 2, 2015)

BSea said:


> TurtleTom said:
> 
> 
> > I suspect one of the reasons the site is not as popular as it could be has to do with automatic subscription.  I can't think of another forum I've used that made you subscribe to a thread where you had posted a message.  I just forget.
> ...


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## Smitty37 (Oct 2, 2015)

skiprat said:


> Leroy, I asked the same question a couple of years ago, but nothing came of it.
> http://www.penturners.org/forum/f11/more-formal-forum-needed-perhaps-113850/


Well at least we now know that the two smartest guys that hit the site are in favor of it.:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:


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