# I think I may have just ruined my spindle gouge...



## mbellek (Aug 7, 2007)

So... My father in law was the one who always sharpened my tools for me. And at first, he was willing to do it as often as I asked, sometimes even without me asking. But lately, he has become very very lax about it, until sharpening my tools has become something he will always do "soon" but never does. He is also resistant to teaching me how to sharpen them myself, leaving me no choice but to teach myself. (I think he never really used his lathe enough to understand just how often they needed to be sharpened. Before I began turning there were many of his tools that had NEVER been sharpened!!) 

So using a book on sharpening as a guide I taught myself with immediate success to sharpen the skews, parting tools & roughing gouges. But I stayed away from the spindle because it was so small. 

Finally tonight I decided it could be put off no longer, so I sharpened it. 

I sharpened some other tools first (because I still tend to be a little nervous when I first start) and when I got to the spindle, one end just kept looking more squared off than the other. So I kept going and going until I ended up with something that looks like I sharpened it with my eyes closed. I kept trying to fix it, but now it is almost squared off.

Is there a way to "start over" or have I ruined it? 

I know this may come off as childish but I am afraid to tell him. He is the kind of guy who would think it was great that I taught myself if I had done it perfectly, but pissed if I made a mistake. 

Any advice?

I don't think we have one of those things that you sit the end of the tool into and it holds the degree... he always did it freehand so I just did too, imitating what he did.


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## mbellek (Aug 7, 2007)

Oooh wait. I think I fixed it. 

I'd still like advice about sharpening though.


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## txbatons (Aug 7, 2007)

In less than 3 minutes, too. Very impressive! []


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## Tea Clipper (Aug 7, 2007)

There are a few video clips on youtube that show tool sharpening.  You should take a look.  Sorry I don't have a direct link for you, but I typed in woodturning in the search box and found a lot of neat videos. []


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## ed4copies (Aug 8, 2007)

Melanie,

Don't know how you are trying to sharpen, but if you don't have a wet, slow-speed grinder, it is a good investment.  

High-speed dry grinding removes lots of expensive steel, real fast.  You need to use them occasionally, but "put a nicer edge on" with the slow speed, you will save money on lathe tools in the long run (Of course, we are talking YEARS, here.)


Good luck and I am a lousy sharpener, too if it makes you feel any better!!


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## mbellek (Aug 8, 2007)

I don't know a lot about grinders, but we have one with two wheels... one white, one black. I use the white one. 

The youtube thing is a good idea, I kill time on there once in a while, but I'd never have thought to try it.

TXBATONS: I know that sounded weird probably!! But that's sort of the way of it. When sharpening I sort of fly by the seat of my pants... When I do manage to do something correctly, it's almost an accident!!


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## Fred (Aug 9, 2007)

Melanie... I'm sure that you have seen it here before, but like it has been stated a slow wet grind is always the best for HSS tools. 

I for one would be completely lost without the Tormek and the proper tool jig. I honestly don't think one can get any better than this sharpening setup. Expensive yes, worth it IMHO - DEFINITELY! It will save the expense of buying new tools that get ground down quick or the loss of temper in the metal (bad) by using normal grinders. 

The end results to you will be "scary sharp tools" that in turn will make life at the lathe much easier, and the finishing steps are very often quicker as well! Go to Woodcraft and examine the tool. Compared to the new Jet I would recommend the Tormek any day. If there is an upcoming wood show near you, check their list of visiting vendors for Tormek. Show prices are often discounted a bit. Woodcraft here in Atlanta also gives a 10% discount during your month of birth so ask at your WC store. Check e-Bay as well. []


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## mbellek (Aug 9, 2007)

How does that discount work? Do they send you a card? They asked for my address & birthday when I went.


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## mbellek (Aug 16, 2007)

I think I did it again...

If the tool is blue at the end.. what does that mean? 

Also, CAN a tool be ruined by bad sharpening, or can it be fixed eventually?


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## great12b4ever (Aug 16, 2007)

Melanie,  If the tool turns blue, you have gotten it too HOT!  Take your time when removing metal, and cool it in water often if you don't have a slow speed wet grinder.  I only use the fast turning grinder for shaping my tools, and ZI go to my Tormek for sharpening and honing.  Before the Tormek, I use various grits of sandpaper glued down to a flat piece of marble to get the "wire" edge, then my diamond hone to polish and hone the edge.  I am fairly new to pen turning, but have been a wood carver for years.

Hope this helps.

Rob


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## beamer (Aug 16, 2007)

If it's High Speed Steel, blue isn't a problem. If it's carbon steel, blue's a problem. HSS throws dramatically fewer sparks. Carbon steel tends to spray sparks about the way you'd imagine an atomizer spray - lots of very little sparks. That's the best way i've found to tell the difference between them when it's not marked.


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## dalemcginnis (Aug 16, 2007)

Melanie:

You might get more (and better) responses if you post this in a new topic but I'll give my limited knowledge.  If it is a carbon steel chisel you have taken the temper off of it.  That means it will no longer hold an edge.  If it is high speed steel I have heard that it is not a problem.   The way to tell the difference between the two is the sparks on a carbon tool will look like fireworks.
As someone as mentioned before get the Alan Lacer video on skew chisels, he spends a lot of time telling how to sharpen your chisel.  I know you were asking about a spindle gouge but much of the sharpening tips he gives applies to it as well.

Hope it wasn't an expensive chisel.

I must talk too much, when I started typing my reply there were no responses, by the time I post it there are two.[]


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## mbellek (Aug 16, 2007)

It shoots sparks like a sparkler... So I'd assume it is HCS. What do you mean it won't "Hold an edge"? The blue comes off, I can file it off, so does that mean it hasn't gone all the way through or something?

When I started out, my father in law kept telling me "Oh just let me know--whatever you need" but that didn't last long, so I've been on my own & left to figure things out. 

If they are HCS I'd imagine they are probably not high-quality tools to begin with. Many had never been sharpened before I started using them but he's had the lathe for 10 years so that ought to tell you how much he used it!! (ie: NEVER)


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## dalemcginnis (Aug 16, 2007)

I am not an expert on sharpening by any means, but if you can file the blue off then I think you can save your gouge (again)[].  Just file down till all the blue is gone and resharpen being careful not to overheat the gouge.

By the way, start saving your pennies up and get the Tormek system as soon as you can.  When I started out just a few months ago I was using a grinder like you and having about the same success sharpening.  Bought a Tormek with the woodturners kit and immediately I was getting my chisels very sharp.  Well worth the expense in my opinion.


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## mbellek (Aug 16, 2007)

Really? I was saving my pennies up for my own lathe/better tools... In a way I feel like "Why buy a sharpener for something that is not officially *mine*?" 

Hopefully I can start selling some of my turnings pretty soon and make the pennies pile up quicker... How much was it?


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## dalemcginnis (Aug 16, 2007)

> _Originally posted by mbellek_
> <br />Really? I was saving my pennies up for my own lathe/better tools... In a way I feel like "Why buy a sharpener for something that is not officially *mine*?"
> 
> Hopefully I can start selling some of my turnings pretty soon and make the pennies pile up quicker... How much was it?



You're using it and he isn't aren't you.  Doesn't that make it yours?[][}]
It cost a lot more than my lathe[]---$600 from CSUSA. Some people buy the Jet sharpener with the Tormek jigs and save $100 but the Tormek comes with a video and book on sharpening that IMHO is well worth the extra money.


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## mbellek (Aug 16, 2007)

I'm using it and he NEVER HAS!! I mean, seriously, think about it, if he had tools that had NEVER been sharpened in 10 years, until a month ago-- he couldn't possibly have used it more than maybe three or four times!!!! 

He does like to remind me occasionally that its HIS shop I'm in... Like he will say something like "If you're nice to me maybe I'll will you my lathe" or "Now, are you using your buffing wheels or mine?" 

Don't you love impossibly situations with in-laws?! [:X]


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## gketell (Aug 17, 2007)

You really aren't in an impossible situation.  Impossible would be him saying "no you can't use my tools and it doesn't matter that I'm not; it is mine!"  He IS letting you use his stuff so be sure to ask to use new tools and try to make him a part of your creations.

One way to do this (which would probably cut his comments off at the knees) is too say "thanks for letting me use your tools again.  Look at the beautiful ____ your generosity has enabled me to create!"  And every once in a while, make him something special.

GK
ps  Even with HCS, if you gently remove the blued steel you will get back to the good tempered stuff.  Losing the temper just means that it will stay sharp only until you first use it (or a few weeks of sitting unused).


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## Kalai (Aug 17, 2007)

Hi Melanie,  GK is right you can gently remove the blued steel to get to the good stuff.
If you pay for the shipping I will send you a few turning tools, I have extras, let me know if there is a certain tool you like, like round nose scrapers or spear points or spindle gouge, that way you can have your own tools, I will look to see what the shipping cost will be.  Aloha.

Chris[]
Kalai[]


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## EeyorIs21 (Aug 17, 2007)

Melanie,

Like a typical guy I have been drooling over the TORMEK, I think it is the most exspensive. I have no doubt it is worth the money, but WOW, it's a lot of money. I would rather upgrade to a better lathe and get some other turning tools first.

I don't know about filing away the blue. But if you get there, or just get another tool I would use something like this for sharpening/honing in the future:

http://woodcraft.com/family.aspx?familyid=219

It costs a lot less. Once you have the correct angle and edge on your tool you can use this to re-hone(sharpen) the edge. Little sharpening/honing trick. Get a black marker(like a Sharpie) and mark the cutting edge/bevel. Then as you sharpen or grind and you can see what you have already done because the black marker is gone. If any black marker is left you know you missed a spot. This is usually done for the honing, since just grinding can take off all marker very fast.


You should be able to attach it to the grinder you already have(like changing the wheel, just need a wrench). Because using jewelers rough you will not remove as much of the steel and less chance you will damage end of tool. 

Regarding how not to BLUE in future, very very VERY light touch, take your time. Suggest before you start grinding edge back that you use a diamond wheel dresser. 

http://woodcraft.com/family.aspx?familyid=223

It is possible that the grinding wheel/stone may not be perfectly flat(rounded profile on grinding edge) or that the immediate grinding surface has been clogged like happens to sandpaper after a while. If clogged could create more friction and cause tool to BLUE faster.


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## maxwell_smart007 (Aug 17, 2007)

I thought I'd chime in with a cheaper alternative.

I don't use the Tormek...and I don't think you need to either.  THere's no reason to have a RAZOR SHARP tool for turning, because it won't last.  Seriously.  If you spend a bunch of time getting the tool sharp enough to split hairs, it'll be dull almost immediately.

The reason for this is that the wood is spinning quite fast.  This means that the tool is taking tiny slivers, but cutting a lot more wood thana bench chisel would.  This means that while bench chisels should be razor sharp, turning chisels don't have to be scary sharp. 

THEY DO HAVE TO BE SHARP though.  I'm still learning how to sharpen the trickier ones like skews so that I don't get catches, but you might be wise to look into getting your own tools, at least.  Go to Harbor Freight, if you have one nearby, and get their set of turning chisels for 35 bucks...money well spent.  Really, they're good chisels.  

And the way I see it, it's HIS shop you're in, and his tools you're using, so if he's a bit odd about it, well, it's his shop.  A man's shop is his castle.  The best way to fix that is to get your own castle, or to bring your own tools with you, so that you're only using his lathe (which is really hard to break)....

Hope that helps.  Oh, if you don't want to get your own chisels, at least get a guide for the grinder!  

http://oneway.ca/sharpening/grind_jig.htm


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## Fred (Aug 17, 2007)

I have to disagree a little - and not argue at all - with our fellow turner maxwell_smart007. He states, and I agree completely, that turning tools do have to be sharp ... and I also definitely believe the sharper they are the better your end results will be. 

For instance, a sharp 1" skew tool with straight edge will cut very well and leave a reasonably smooth surface. A "scary sharp" 1" skew tool with straight edge will leave an excellent almost ready to finish surface. It works very well if one turns the piece backwards to really eliminate the 'fuzzies.' I find that finishing a blank that has been turned using a very recently sharpened skew will go much quicker and accept a finish easier.

Also, it is not the the sharpness of the skew - or any tool - that causes 'catches', it is quite often from the user's presentation of the edge to the surface being worked. The skew is not at all forgiving, but with enough time in using it, it can possibly be the most useful of turning tools at your disposal. (IMHO!)

As for speed in turning, I turn my blanks - both pen and bowls - at a reasonably slow speed until I get them well rounded and somewhat balanced ... then I turn up the lathe speed and look for any vibration indicating an imbalance in the piece at that speed. I then turn the speed down a bit until the vibration stops and repeat the process. I usually end up in the 2800 to 3200 RPM range in just a few minutes of turning.

BTW, my tool of choice after getting the wood cut to a balanced shape is the Sorby 1" flat edge oval skew which I keep 'scary sharp' with my trusted Tormek. And yes, I do sharpen it a few times during turning keeping it 'scary sharp" at all times. Link to the tool of 'my' choice http://www.woodcraft.com/family.aspx?familyid=413 []


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## mbellek (Aug 17, 2007)

I just wanted to tell you guys real quick that I just posted this in the classified forum:

http://www.penturners.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=27098

Trying to find someone to build me a sharpening jig -- that is way out of my league right now... so if anyone here is interested... []


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## maxwell_smart007 (Aug 17, 2007)

You know, Fred, that's likely why I fear the Skew...I don't have it sharp enough!  

Andrew


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## mbellek (Aug 18, 2007)

I agree with Fred, mama likes "scary" sharp and the skew IS the most useful tool (especially I'm finding out with Dymondwood). What I have no idea how to use is scrapers. I have a pointy scraper (square nose? looks kind of like a parting tool? sorry still learning names) that I'm beginning to use more, but my round nose scraper is a complete mystery to me!!

But lately I'm having problems with my tools, I don't know if you'd call this "catching" or what... they go like whoosh, whoosh, BONK!!! and it feels like I've lost control for a second. I've broken blanks this way. I thought it was due to my poor sharpening, which is why I've been so frantically trying to come up with a solution (that doesn't bust my piggy bank!)! Also my skew "screams" at me sometimes and I figured this was also due to shoddy sharpening. (I know those are totally "girl" descriptions of the problem, but I don't know how else to explain it)


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## maxwell_smart007 (Aug 18, 2007)

Sharpening could be the culprit...or technique...

Every time I had a big catch, it was because I was doing something wrong - although at the time, I didn't know what the RIGHT way to do it was!


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## mdburn_em (Aug 18, 2007)

Melanie,
I think you should take Chris up on his offer.  He did mention a gouge.  That way, there would be absolutely no hurt feelings anywhere in the family.  You would also not feel bad about learning different things about sharpening with you own tool.  The way you learn to sharpen freehand is to sharpen freehand a lot.

By the way, you did not ruin your gouge.  As long as there is steel left, you're alright.

It may not be as much fun as turning wood, but you will get satisfaction from having your own sharp tools.

You will want to hone your gouge and I would recommend something like this.  http://www.woodcraft.com/family.aspx?FamilyID=4364

Yeah, a Tormek would be nice, it's just not on the horizon yet.


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## mbellek (Aug 18, 2007)

Oh I took Chris up on his very generous offer almost as soon as he made it!! (Thanks again Chris!!)

I'm still inclined to think the problem is the sharpening of my tools as opposed to the technique with which I use them, because this is a recent development--I'd say in the last week or so. Before that, I was not having these problems. I think at first, I was just re-sharpening an already correctly-made edge... But little by little those edges got turned into "Melanie-edges" which are not as nice. Plus I notice it more with the tools I have more trouble sharpening (like my spindle gouge)...

Hopefully now that my hubby has learned a little about sharpening, and I have some new/used tools on the way from Chris (thanks again man! I can't say it enough!!), I'll be able to figure out why this is happening.


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## Fred (Aug 18, 2007)

Mel... I think you have solved your own problem since you realise that the method used to sharpen your tools is a tad bit wrong. That is one reason why I believe that the Tormek system is absolutely top notch. The big thing with their jigs is the ability to duplicate the previous sharpening angles. That also eliminates wasting tool metal to develop an edge.

With the proper jig you can even match your "Melanie-edges" and get them scary sharp and keep them that way. It's all in the angle of the metal to the turning stone and the jigs let you be consistant from one time to the next.

The JET 'knock-off' of the Tormek is OK, but many folks are buying that tool and then using the Tormek jigs as they are far superior to the JET jigs. []


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## mbellek (Aug 19, 2007)

I'm sure the Tormek is even better than you say it is... But Fred, let me ask you? Would you have invested in one when you had only been turning for five weeks? I think it would be wisest for me to try to build upon the system I already have access to by getting a jig, and then justify the expense when I am a more accomplished (and hopefully sale-making now that people are starting to take an interest even on the street) woodturner!! 

<s>But, someone did say $600... I saw something called "Tormek Sharpening System 2006" on woodcraft, and it was only $400... But not with shipping or anything... Maybe that makes up the difference.</s>

EDIT: I just looked again: The Woodturner's Master Set is $639


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## maxwell_smart007 (Aug 19, 2007)

Don't get me wrong - the Tormek or Jet would be nice...but it's not the "be-all and end-all" of sharpening.  Many turners, myself included, use the venerable old bench-grinder.  I would recommend learning to use the bench grinder first, getting a jig, and then spending your tool money buying good lathe chisels (seriously, check out Harbor Freight - their chisels aren't that bad!) 

For the price of a Tormek, you can buy a HF lathe (Model 34706  - a Jet clone!), tools, your own bench grinder, the Wolverine sharpening jig, and maybe a few more tools....so no, I don't think I'd recommend buying a Tormek to sharpen tools that aren't yours to use a lathe that's not yours...wait a while, then see....


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## maxwell_smart007 (Aug 19, 2007)

http://www.newwoodworker.com/reviews/wlvrinervu.html

Tom reviews the wolverine in the above link...


and here's a home-made alternative - cheap, and easy!  

http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/pages/w00115.asp


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## dalemcginnis (Aug 19, 2007)

> _Originally posted by mbellek_
> <br />I'm sure the Tormek is even better than you say it is... But Fred, let me ask you? Would you have invested in one when you had only been turning for five weeks? I think it would be wisest for me to try to build upon the system I already have access to by getting a jig, and then justify the expense when I am a more accomplished (and hopefully sale-making now that people are starting to take an interest even on the street) woodturner!!



Melanie:

I did buy the Tormek after only a month of turning. I had a grinder with all the jigs from Wolverine prior to the Tormek. 
So why did I upgrade?
I did not like the way my grinder was eating away the metal on my chisels, and with high speed it is too easy to slip and grind a big chunk out of a tool so that you have to regrind it and lose even more metal.  I only had cheap tools at the time and was afraid to buy an expensive tool and screw it up trying to sharpen it.
I bought the Tormek with the turners kit and am very glad I did. If I had it to do over I would have bought it sooner.  I saw an immediate improvement in my turning when I started using my tools after the Tormek.

Someone said 'Why spend all that money to sharpen tools that are not your's?"  I say that is another reason to get the best sharpening system you can.  If you are using someone else's tools you owe them the respect to treat those tools better than you would your own.


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## dalemcginnis (Aug 19, 2007)

Melanie:

By now you've probably realized that there are very strong opinions on the Tormek vs grinder debate. In my last post I mentioned a high speed grinder so now a lot of people will probably chime in that you should only use a low or medium speed grinder. [8D]

The truth of the matter is we ALL have our preferred method of sharpening and this is a debate that will never be settled as long as there are two turners. You need to find which method of sharpening you are most comfortable with and go with that.  If that's spending money on the Tormek, so be it.  If you think it is going to take too long to get it and you want to use your grinder with or without jigs, that to is your choice and there is No right or wrong on which sharpening system you use so long as it produces sharp tools.
Some methods have a longer learning curve than others, ie freehand vs Tormek.  But in the end once you have mastered the sharpening method of your choice your tools will be plenty sharp.

I mentioned before buying the Alan Lacer video on skews, he has really good instructions in it on freehand sharpening on a high speed grinder.


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