# Confused Knots!



## rd_ab_penman (Jun 21, 2007)

Fellow Penturners, could someone show me difference between a Celtic Knot and a Double Cross? From what I have seen they look the same.

Les In Alberta






What's YOUR Carbon Footprint?


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## byounghusband (Jun 21, 2007)

I didn't know they were different.  Maybe the angle of the inlayed wood?[:I]  I hope someone knows, 'cause I'd like to know too.....[8D]


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## Randy_ (Jun 21, 2007)

I'm not sure there is a hard and fast definition here; but I think you will generally find that folks who do the decoration with just 2 rings call it a double cross and those who do it with four rings call it a Celtic knot.  There can also be variations in the angle of the rings and their thickness so no two ever look exactly the same.(But note that I have seen the four ring decoratiion called a "Double-Cross")

Let me see if I can find a couple of pictures for illustration and post them here a little later.

Here is a nice example of what I think of as a double-cross by Robert Krauer out of Maryland.



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And here is what I think of as a Celtic knot done by Laurie Sullivan.  One of the segments wasn't cut quite right so one ring doesn't line up exactly; but I think you can get the idea of the difference between two rings and four.



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And here is another Celtic knot by Jeremy Freeman(armyturner) out of Oil Trough, Arizona.



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I don't know if this will help; but here are two pictures(reduces); but posted side by side for easier comparison.






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And to add a little more to the confusion, here is another design by Jeremy Freeman that he calls a Double Celtic pen.


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## skiprat (Jun 21, 2007)

Randy, I would have said that both Laurie's and Robert's pens have four cuts ( rings ) And therefore both double crosses
I also would have thought that a Double cross and a Celtic Knot were the same thing. One with just two rings, I would just call a cross - (but not to be confused with the Christian Cross, as done by Eagle and others)
Recently someone did a double cross 'twice' on the same blank. The second Double cross overlapped the first. I don't know how to link the pic.
But terminolgy can be confusing, I remember the fun we had trying to determine what a segment, lamination, inlay and glue up was.[]

Edit in,
You just beat me to it with your latest pic of Georges pens. But I would say they are all still the same. IE; all have four rings  

Are you refering to the sequence that the rings are cut to decide if it's a knot or a cross?

BTW, If Robert sees this, then I love that pen!!![]


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## Randy_ (Jun 21, 2007)

Steven:  I would not disagree with your interpretation at all.  Certainly there is confusion in the terminology.  I was just looking at a tutorial on the Yahoo pen forum done by John Nystedt of www.purpleheartpens.com .  He was one of the earlier makers of this design(maybe the first??) and he calls them Double-Cross.(Just checked PHP and it looks like they are out of business??)

Here is a link to the tutorial.  Hope it works.  Sometimes Yahoo links do not always work??


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## skiprat (Jun 21, 2007)

Randy, I've done the Celtic Knot ( or Double Cross if you prefer ) a couple of times. With 4 rings. Not great ones. I didn't think of doing the cuts in any particular sequence as I didn't know or think it would matter.

Maybe I'm just being thick but as much as I study all the pics, I can't see a difference. Please point out the differences in the two pics you used for comparison.[:I]

PS,The pen I was refering to was by Jeremy (Armyturner)


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## Ron in Drums PA (Jun 21, 2007)

The ones shown above are Double Cross Pens.

This is "The Celtic Knot Pen" I made back in 2005

As far as I know (it's ok if somebody proves me wrong), I was the one who coined the name back then for my pen.





Randy is right, sequence matters


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## skiprat (Jun 21, 2007)

Wow Ron, that is fantastic. Six rings?
I particularly like the way the ring colours seem to change from purple to black. The effect is cool.[]


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## DCBluesman (Jun 21, 2007)

Since none of the depictions is a knot, I would call them all overlapping and bisecting rings.  I do believe Ron was the first to use the term Celtic knot for the design.  For a more complete discussion of Celtic Knots, check out http://www.aon-celtic.com/trade_history_meanings.html .


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## TBone (Jun 21, 2007)

Maybe I'm looking with only one eye but I can't tell the difference between all the pictures that Randy posted.  They all look alike with 2 rings intersecting.
On the one Ron posted (fantastic BTW) I see 3 rings (or circles) intersecting. I'm at the office so I know it's not from Happy Hour []  Later tonight maybe I will see 4 and 6 rings  [][8D][}]


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## Ron in Drums PA (Jun 21, 2007)

> _Originally posted by skiprat_
> <br />Wow Ron, that is fantastic. Six rings?
> I particularly like the way the ring colours seem to change from purple to black. The effect is cool.[]



Yes Steve, 6 rings.

THX!


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## Randy_ (Jun 21, 2007)

> _Originally posted by skiprat_
> <br />.....Maybe I'm just being thick but as much as I study all the pics, I can't see a difference. Please point out the differences in the two pics you used for comparison.[:I]



Steven:  In the two side by side pictures, the one on the left has only two rings.  The pair on the right has four.  It is a little hard to see the detail in the small shots.  Go up the page to the full sized pictures and the number of rings will be more evident.


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## Randy_ (Jun 21, 2007)

> _Originally posted by Ron in Drums PA_
> <br />The ones shown above are Double Cross Pens.




Ron:  Thanks for the picture.  That was the one I was trying to find.  Spent an hour looking for it and never could....I had forgotten that it was your design.  Sorry.


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## Randy_ (Jun 21, 2007)

> _Originally posted by TBone_
> <br />Maybe I'm looking with only one eye but I can't tell the difference between all the pictures that Randy posted.  They all look alike with 2 rings intersecting.
> On the one Ron posted (fantastic BTW) I see 3 rings (or circles) intersecting. I'm at the office so I know it's not from Happy Hour []  Later tonight maybe I will see 4 and 6 rings  [][8D][}]



Take Ron's pen as an example.  If you see three rings at the top of the pattern, you have to remember that there are three more rings on the top of the pattern on the back side of the pen which you are not seeing.  Actually you do see them....they are the three rings that you can see on the bottom of the pattern.  Think about it??


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## skiprat (Jun 21, 2007)

MMMMmmm.... based on that then Randy, surely the black/silver pen has 4 rings and not two as you suggest?[?]


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## Randy_ (Jun 21, 2007)

> _Originally posted by skiprat_
> <br />MMMMmmm.... based on that then Randy, surely the black/silver pen has 4 rings and not two as you suggest?[?]



No not really.  Because the angle and thickness of the rings and the orientation of the B&S pen is different, you can see all of the rings.  If you were to rotate the B&S a little you would only see one ring at the top of the pattern and when doubling that, you would compute 2 rings.


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## Randy_ (Jun 21, 2007)

George has asked me to remove the pictures of his pens from this discussion. I will try to find another picture to illustrate the the 4-ring pen.


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## rd_ab_penman (Jun 21, 2007)

I looked up definition of Celtic Knot on Wikipedia: "Celtic Knots are a variety of (mostly endless) knots and stylized graphical representations of knots used in decoration" Here is 2 examples they show as Celtic Knots.
So my pen shown here would be classed as a "Double Cross" as it only has four rings, where as we are saying that anything more than four rings would be classified as a "Celtic Knot". Am I correct or is it a matter of interpritation? 



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Les In Alberta


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## Randy_ (Jun 22, 2007)

I think the answer is that you can call it whatever you want and everyone else will probably do the same and there will always be a little over lap of names.  Even if you use some "logic" here. you can easily justify several different names.  It would be nice to bow to precedent and call yours a Double-Cross and Ron's a Celtic; but that creates the problem of naming the design with only two rings.  If we call it the Cross or Single Cross design, that creates some confusion too  as there are clearly two crosses visible in a two ring pen and there are already a number of designs utilizing the some form of the Latin or Christian cross (of which there are many http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_cross ) and already referred to as Cross pens and not to be confused with the commercially manufactured pens offered by the "CROSS" Company.  I suppose we could just call it a 2-ring pen but that doesn't quite roll off the tongue like double-cross or Celtic.

If anyone has a suggestion for a way out of this conundrum, "I'm listening."  after looking at all of the designs, my eyes are crossed!![][]


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## Angelo49 (Jun 22, 2007)

Heres mine in the US


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## Ron in Drums PA (Jun 22, 2007)

I look at it this way...

The first person to use 4 loops called it a Double Cross, there for it is.
The first person to use 6 loops called it a Celtic Cross, there for it is.

Others are welcome to name their pens that has a new technique as they see fit. 
Lets try to avoid confusion.


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## Texatdurango (Jun 22, 2007)

> _Originally posted by Ron in Drums PA_
> <br />I look at it this way...
> 
> The first person to use 4 loops called it a Double Cross, there for it is.
> ...


Geeze, sure sounds authoritative, is that your final ruling?

To me, it looks like you are saying that just because you did your design first that you are the only one who can call it a celtic knot and all others are judged by how they compare to yours then named accordingly, and that's absurd! 

How do you know you are the first?  A fellow in Kansas could have done a six line design years ago and called his the "Swisher Swirl".  So, using your logic, you then, would have to rename your design to match his!

This whole naming dilemma is ridiculous.  Ron, Sorry but I looked up "Celtic knot" and Celtic cross" in the dictionary and didn't see your name in either description so it looks like it's fair game as to what we call our pens!

One problem I see on this forum is that some of the folks who have been turning for a while seem to think they "own" certain ideas or "techniques" just because they did them first.  The way I see it, if they don't want people doing similar designs... then they should keep their ideas a secret and not show them off to the world.

Geeze... all this over a few ink pens and what they're called, why can't everyone just be happy knowing that their fellow turners are having a good time rather than raining on their parade?


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## Ron in Drums PA (Jun 22, 2007)

> _Originally posted by Texatdurango_
> <br />
> 
> 
> ...



Relax Tex, your panties are all tied up in a celtic cross knot

You want to name one of your pen, then go for it.

Have fun and lets see what you come up.

http://www.penturners.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=25375&whichpage=1#263067


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## rd_ab_penman (Jun 22, 2007)

What a shame! All I did was ask a question on the difference bettween a "Double Cross" and a "Celtic Knot". Now we have gotten someones knot out of joint! Sounds like you have to be very cautous as to what you post! I was hoping that joining this forum was going to be an enjoyable experience! Life is too short and can be a lot of fun!

Les Elm
Red Deer, Alberta


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## Ron Mc (Jun 22, 2007)

Les,
It is an enjoyable experience my friend! There is a lot to be learned here that all turners old or new will benefit from.
I have always named the designs that I create for my pens and enjoy doing so. I am always flattered when someone re-creates one of the designs whether on purpose or by accident. This means that fellow pen artists are pushing the boundaries and this I love watching.

Now as far as the difference between a Celtic knot and a double cross I really hadn't ever considered it. Yet as I look closely at the pictures of the pens and one I have in inventory....Then I look at the drawings of a Celtic knot it has become apparent that I have not accomplished a "true" Celtic knot at all. This would be extremely hard to do because of the "over under" or "weave pattern" that must be created.

What we have accomplished is a wonderful visual illusion of a Celtic knot. This all should be proud of.


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## mick (Jun 22, 2007)

Why don't we just call it a very pretty bit of segmentation. I called mine celtic knots without really knowing where I got it from. I like Ron sometimes "name" a certain design. I call my take on Ron's Morning After, Harlequin. It's not a Harlequin pattern but to my wife it's close....so harlequin it is! I also make a Spiraled Step pattern using one of Ron's checkerboard blanks...LOML calls it Escher Steps...again It ain't exactly Escher like but she see it that way. 
 I would hate to see this imformative discussion spiral into an argument. So lets just call our pen like We see em and let it go at that! []


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## rd_ab_penman (Jun 22, 2007)

> _Originally posted by Ron Mc_
> <br />Les,
> It is an enjoyable experience my friend! There is a lot to be learned here that all turners old or new will benefit from.
> I have always named the designs that I create for my pens and enjoy doing so. I am always flattered when someone re-creates one of the designs whether on purpose or by accident. This means that fellow pen artists are pushing the boundaries and this I love watching.
> ...


Ron, I totaly agree that there is a lot to be learned on this forum. I am a new memeber and have learned a lot from both old and new turners already. Even though there will be some sour wood out there, I will continue to name and post my creations. I am and will always be appreciative of all comments on my pen postings. I don't know of any better way to learn. 
When I was still working as a supervisor for an oil company I always told my guys and gals "there is no such thing and a stupid question, there is just stupid answers".

Les Elm
Red Deer, Alberta


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## Ron in Drums PA (Jun 22, 2007)

Ron Mc

Yes, it is an illusion, just like back in 1964 when Lee named a new car design "Mustang" it was an illusion of something that is small, quick and responsive. 

When I see a Lotus pen, I don't say, "HEY That don't look like no freaking flower!"

So yes, once again, we are on the same page. It's just an illusion.

---

Les,
There is a wealth of information here on IAP. You will not find a better Pen forum than this (or one that even comes close). So hang in there.

---

The guy who made the first 4 ring "Double Cross Pen" named it that. I'm not saying it's good or bad, it's just anything after that is still just a copy of his idea. Use any name you want, it's still a double cross pen. And it still is a wonderful technique to learn.

I named my 6 ring pen "The Celtic Cross Pen". To my knowledge, this was the first time this technique was accomplished on a pen or anything else for that matter. 

Anyone is welcomed to prove me wrong, and I wouldn't be upset if someone does. But until then, my pen is the first and is called   "The Celtic Cross Pen" 

Oh, and please feel free to copy my idea of a six ring pen this summer. I would be honored if you do so and would love to see your accomplishments.


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## Randy_ (Jun 22, 2007)

> _Originally posted by Ron in Drums PA_
> <br />.....This is "The Celtic Knot Pen" I made back in 2005.....





> _Originally posted by Ron in Drums PA_
> <br />.....I named my 6 ring pen "The Celtic Cross Pen". To my knowledge, this was the first time this technique was accomplished on a pen or anything else for that matter.....



Now, I am even more confused!!![][]


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## Ron in Drums PA (Jun 22, 2007)

Lousy keyboard, must have been made in China. Doesn't even know how to spell.[:I]

The Celtic Cross Pen is the correct name


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## Roy99664 (Jun 23, 2007)

Ron in Drums Pa. That is one fantastic piece of craftsmanship,  I think you have the right to name it anything you want.


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