# Question Solution



## wdcav1952 (Jul 9, 2007)

Some years ago, before this forum had even started, I joined the Yahoo Penturners Group.  At that point, I knew how to make a gouge live up to its name and very little else about turning.  I asked a couple of questions, and the moderator of the site, Rich K, told me to go through the files before asking questions.  Yes, it hurt my feelings, and I pouted for a day or two.  Then, I started researching all of the information available on the site.  Rich taught me a very valuable lesson.

Our site here has a library available.  New turners as well as those who have a lot of experience, will find a wealth of information there.  Take some time, forget instant gratification, and read through the library.  Join the Yahoo Group, and read the files.  Trust me, you will get answers to questions you haven't even though of yet.  Russ' site also offers an amazing amount of free information.

Cut off the TV and curl up with some good files; you won't regret it, and by golly you will learn some things.

FWIW,


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## gerryr (Jul 9, 2007)

Did they finally give you a license to drive that gouge?[}]


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## wdcav1952 (Jul 9, 2007)

> _Originally posted by gerryr_
> <br />Did they finally give you a license to drive that gouge?[}]



Nope, that one was beyond repair![]


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## thewishman (Jul 9, 2007)

AMEN!!!


Chris


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## JimGo (Jul 9, 2007)

Can we make this sticky?


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## DCBluesman (Jul 9, 2007)

I would like to take this thread as an opportunity to go a little further.

I read dozens of posts that say "I don't want to make a mistake (or take the time or one of a dozen reasons). but could someone tell me how to ___?  Or what is the best way to ___?  Recognizing that there is a value in having a forum full of experienced turners is a valuable resource, I feel that many folks are looking for the instant gratification rather than enjoying the pursuit of a hobby...or eve a source of income.

In general, I avoid responding to these questions unless there is some indication that the turner has tried... has experimented... has considered some alternatives.  Those who want all of the answers spoonfed will never get the joy of discovery.  You will be forever enslaved to having a guide rather than following your intelligence, your intuition and taking some risks.  You will never hear your name associated with a valuable learning, like Ed Davidson's bottle stopper turning method or Don Ward's CA finish.

Pen making should be an adventure with some excellent side trips and some that don't pan out.  If you want a foolproof method of stabilizing a punky blank because you don't want to ruin an Emperor, experiment on inexpensive kits... or even on tubes that never beome kits.  Do you want to know what finish is best for a specific wood, try several.  Some say CA and blackwood don't mix.  Tohers use it all the time.  How can you know the answer for you if you consistently look for a quick answer.

I don't post this as a criticism as much as a wake up call.  If you want the answers to all of your questions without having to do the work, you are unlikely to ever find true satisfaction in the hobby... and yoiu will likely find your wait out of it as quickly as you entered.  I've seen it happen hundreds of times on this forum alone.


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## PenWorks (Jul 9, 2007)

I got the same treatment from Rich, he does have that effect on people []
So glad as well. After reading ALL the info, I felt like I had gained years of knowledge in a week and found out how little I actually knew. [] Should be manditory reading.


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## GaryMGg (Jul 9, 2007)

Not to pile on here, however the thoughts above are highly valid points.
And, while I hold to the theories postulated by Cav & DCB, I regret to say even
when I provide mandatory reading to staff, I have to read them a cliff-notes version to
be certain the `shall' statements are not missed. Sad but true.

One of these days, maybe I'll write a `how-to search' tutorial.
It's one thing many folks have trouble making work. 

Gary


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## Tuba707 (Jul 9, 2007)

Cav, you did the same thing to me.  Thank you []

By the way, I only pouted for like 3 minutes, you little baby.


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## leehljp (Jul 9, 2007)

I agree whole-heartedly. And I also think this should be a "sticky."

Adding to the above, a person's attitude, as it comes across in the post, plays a big part in the answer received and there are exceptions even then.


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## wdcav1952 (Jul 10, 2007)

> _Originally posted by Tuba707_
> <br />Cav, you did the same thing to me.  Thank you []
> 
> By the way, I only pouted for like 3 minutes, you little baby.



LOL, thanks Joel.  FWIW, Rich was a bit more, shall we say, DIRECT than I tried to be.  I hoped that you would take my advice in the spirit that it was intended, and am gratified to see that you did.  BTW, I actually am a big baby! []


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## ed4copies (Jul 10, 2007)

Well, Cav, if you need diapers I hear NASA has a few, left behind (so to speak) by a former employee.[][]


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## PR_Princess (Jul 10, 2007)

Cav, this is very strange. It so happens that at exactly the same time last night you posted this, Ed and I were talking about this very same subject. (No, don't even try great minds think alike..[])

A sticky is a good idea, but if a new member will not do any research or search the archives what makes you think that they will read a sticky???? 

In lieu of a different site like TPWU, what if ya'll ask to have a new section made just for new penmakers or posters? Those questions can or should be posted there. This should at least help cut down on the clutter in the other forums, yet still maintain the integrity of the IAP as it is now.

(Edited for spelling - before Cav got it)


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## jeff (Jul 10, 2007)

Great topic. Ed, those diapers are very comfy, but they cost $92 each. 

Regarding the library... I agree with Lou, that digging for information is far more interesting and productive than having it handed to you. I've learned more by stumbling on something during a search for something else than by asking questions.

However, I am not happy with the way we lay out information. It's not too easy to dig. Many people have pointed this out to me, and my response has always been to ask them to volunteer to organize what we have, write FAQs, etc. As you see, we still are in the same situation.

So, I'll say it here - let's make it a project to organize the information we have and generate new stuff. I'd love to have FAQs as thorough and detailed as Y! does. All we need are some volunteers to make it happen. 

On the other hand... maybe we simply need pointers to Y!'s FAQ, Russ' pages, etc. That would be as simple as putting links on the front page. 

Thoughts??


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## Ron in Drums PA (Jul 10, 2007)

I've said it before and I'll say it again.

Some of the best lessons I've learned where from the mistakes I've made. Not only on the lathe but in life too. Truthfully, a person can learn more by their mistakes than their successes. 

I figure I must be a genius by now with all the mistakes and screw ups I've made. With any luck I may even get smarter[][][8D]


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## skiprat (Jul 10, 2007)

I think you guys are being a little hard. All of the replies so far have been from seasoned pro's (perhaps except Dawn). And we all were newbies once. I love to experiment but sometimes I do ask questions that have been asked thousands of times before. I'm not too lazy to look either. Loads of us are as fresh to computers and forums as we are to penmaking. Perhaps when a question like that comes up then one of us could put a link to the subject and how they found it. You could of course just ignore it, now that you know how it's done[8D]


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## Jerryconn (Jul 10, 2007)

> _Originally posted by jeff_
> <br />Regarding the library... I agree with Lou, that digging for information is far more interesting and productive than having it handed to you. I've learned more by stumbling on something during a search for something else than by asking questions.
> 
> However, I am not happy with the way we lay out information. It's not too easy to dig. Many people have pointed this out to me, and my response has always been to ask them to volunteer to organize what we have, write FAQs, etc. As you see, we still are in the same situation.
> ...



Jeff,
I will offer some of my time to help with this,  I also think things could be organized differently and hopefully better.  But I am not good at the search function at all! [:I] I tried for a long time yesterday to find info on a problem I have with a FP and never found it, but I knew it had been discussed before. 
When I joined here I was quilty of "asking before seaching" as I think ALOT of us did. And thanks to folks like JimGo and Dario that were patient enough to help get get started learning where to look.  So anyway sign me up Jeff!


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## alamocdc (Jul 10, 2007)

> _Originally posted by skiprat_
> <br />I think you guys are being a little hard. All of the replies so far have been from seasoned pro's (perhaps except Dawn). And we all were newbies once. ...



Yes we were, Skip. However, when I first arrived here by chance a little over two years ago, I asked my share of questions. More often than not, I was politely told (at least I took it politely) that the information was available via searching the forum. Yes, sometimes I had to figure out how to properly enter the parameters of my search, and include archives, but I would eventually find the desired information and move on. And even with my memory, I never forgot what I located and found this to be invaluable. Occasionally, one of our members would include the desired thread as a link and this was appreciated as well. Moreover, several of our members told me to experiment for myself and see what I could come up with. This I did and when I posted my attempts and failures, one of them would contact me with hints or suggestions. I found this to be even more meaningful b/c I had first hand experience on which to build. Such experiences only make us grow in our selected endeavor. 

Not meant as disagreement, just my take on this point. This is also not meant to dissuade our new members from seeking assistance where needed. It is meant to encourage them to search the wealth of information that already exists on this site (and others). I guarantee they will find something unexpected and the time spent will be reflected in their future turnings.


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## Blind_Squirrel (Jul 10, 2007)

Many people do not know about the search function or how to go about using it.  It also does not help when you do use the search and get little ditties like this:

<b>Microsoft OLE DB Provider for SQL Server error '80040e31' 

Timeout expired 

/forum/search_mssql.asp, line 156 
</b>
When I see someone ask a question that I recall being covered before I do a search and post the link (when the search works for me []).


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## GaryMGg (Jul 10, 2007)

> _Originally posted by skiprat_
> <br />I think you guys are being a little hard. All of the replies so far have been from seasoned pro's (perhaps except Dawn)


As a relative neophyte I'll take exception to that as well.
I've been at this since Dec. '06 and wrt pen-making, 98% of what I know I owe to y'all.


> ....Perhaps when a question comes up one of us could put a link to the subject and how they found it...[8D]


I will commit to working on a Search How-to since I'm pretty geeky [].
Jeff, if you can create a means for a support group to post links that you could verify, filter and approve, I'll volunteer to do my part to help others find known info.

I urge EVERYONE to go thru EVERY file in the Library. I've done that and gotten a world of learnin' from it.  [8D]

I urge EVERYONE to go to the Forums home page and go thru the Critiques in the Inactive Forums. There's more knowledge buried in it than you can shake a penblank at. [][] [8D]

Gary


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## eskimo (Jul 10, 2007)

Jeff,

I would be glad to assist in an organization project.

As a "newbie", I have successfully searched for information on this site (although I work in the computer field and am familiar with search functions), however, sometimes it is difficult to separate the wheat from the chaff.  As an example, when I was searching for the mystical "perfect finish", a search for CA/BLO yielded a tremendous number of opinions, with some direction mixed in.  The library was a great help, but I was also looking for others practical successes (and failures) to round out the information found in the Library.

I recognize that everyone here is obviously passionate about what we do.  However, when trying to learn about a process that I wanted to try, it was sometimes daunting to be confronted with such a broad range of information, much of it conflicting.

I don't know what the best presentation method may be, but I am more than willing to help out.

BTW, I am now consistently using a CA/BLO finish with great results, due in large part to the information I found at this site.  However, I continue to find that I am at this site on a regular basis searching for the perfect finish.  While, intellectually, I recognize that this may be tilting at windmills, I continue in my quest undaunted.

Eskimo


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## beamer (Jul 10, 2007)

I'll play Devil's advocate, here...

Much of this is very well intended. I agree with it, but not 100%. Even the subjects that get asked 500 times a month are still evolutionary. I'm all in favor of encouraging people to search before you ask. But if there is something new to add to the subject, where is the opportunity to update what a person finds when they're told to search?

The benefit of people asking the same questions over and over again is that the answers can remain fresh. The people who DO venture out and try new things will ultimately discover some new information that should be shared with the collective. Currently, the most common opportunity for this new information to be added to the collective is when someone asks that same old question. If we're encouraging people to find their own answers, it would be good if there was a way to keep the stockpile of information from going stale.

It really cuts down on the chatter of a board when people are discouraged from asking the same mundane questions. Wether that's good or bad is up to the group as a whole, but it seems to me like this place would really quiet down.


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## jeff (Jul 10, 2007)

The advanced search is a piece of crap. Fortunately, it's not my code [] Standard search uses a completely different approach and doesn't time out very often. 

So are we looking to form a "content support group"?? That would be really nice. I'd like to see a group like that work on overall content development including creating FAQs, etc., assembling a list of links, "motivating" authors to write articles and tutorials, etc. In the first year of our existence we got dozens of new articles. We've had about three in the last year. This site is all about education and we need to get back at it.  

How about this... If you want to participate, send me an email. Once we get a handful of you, I'll create a forum for you to use as a workspace.


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## ed4copies (Jul 10, 2007)

> _Originally posted by jeff_
> <br />The advanced search is a piece of crap. Fortunately, it's not my code [] Standard search uses a completely different approach and doesn't time out very often.
> 
> We've had about three in the last year. This site is all about education and we need to get back at it.
> ...





As one who has had virtually NO success with the search function, this piece of information is VERY valuable!!!  In the future, I will attempt to avoid the advanced search which, I thought, was more specific and should yield BETTER results.  But, alas, I have read the "timeout" message MANY times.

Regarding the tutorials, I would be happy to volunteer to write a couple - I am in the midst of "Peppermills" now.  Does this topic belong on a penturning site?????

I'd certainly make it available to the IAP if you want it, I thought it really did NOT belong here.

YOUR CHOICE!!!![][][]


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## gerryr (Jul 10, 2007)

Out here in the west where we have lots of horses and not a lot of water anymore, we have a saying about leading horses to water.  Unfortunately, the same applies here.  You can have the greatest, most up-to-date, most complete library of articles and information that's very easy to use, but you can't force anyone to use it.  Some people are just basically lazy and want everything handed to them.  As long as it's easier to post a question than look for something, you'll get the same questions being asked over and over again.  I don't think there's any  way to overcome that.


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## edman2 (Jul 10, 2007)

I am fairly new to this site and pen turning and have learned to use the library, articles, and posts. I have labored in the search mode and sometimes I found what I was looking for and sometimes I never found it at all. However, in the act of never finding what I was looking for I found so much other good information that the pain of not finding was diminished by the great other stuff I found. 

I do think a FAQ section would be very helpful to newbies. Probably could be organized along the same topics as our forum topics. If I were not so computer challenged I would volunteer.

On the other hand, people learn in different ways and have different personalities. Some folks are detailed linear thinkers and research comes as second nature.  Other folks are high energy riskers and their minds move too fast for tedious research and they will probably never do it. They are not lazy, it's just not the way they learn. So, I agree with Gerry that some will never do it because it's just not in their nature and does not fit their behavior patterns. 
However, any help like has been mentioned in this thread will be a benefit to a lot of people and I hope enough geek types volunteer to help us non-geek folks find answers. I do like this site!


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## Texatdurango (Jul 11, 2007)

> _Originally posted by gerryr_
> <br />... Some people are just basically lazy and want everything handed to them.  As long as it's easier to post a question than look for something, you'll get the same questions being asked over and over again...


Jery, this is not directed at you, I'm just using your comment as an example since it is shared by so many.

Just something for everyone to think about before applying too many labels to the newbies.

Ever notice how silly, repetative or simple some of the questions seem?  Almost to the point of... "I can't believe someone would ask such a question"!  Ever wonder why?  Ever think that some folks just want to be part of the forum?

They don't have anything to contribute yet as far as sage advice, sharing techniques or assisting others, <b>so the ONLY way they have of interacting is to ask questions!</b>

If you go to great lengths to discourage newbies from asking questions, you will run a lot of new members and potential new friends away, is that what ya'll really want?  

Guys, does it really bust your chops to have to answer a question that has been asked 713 times before?  If so, just skip over the posts, but come on... don't cripple the new folks from participating the only way they know how!

Think back.... to when you joined the forum, remember how excited you were when you posted and folks replied to YOU?  Made you feel like you were one of the guys didn't it?

So, do you want to have a clear division of veterans/newbies or would you rather have new mwmbers feel as if they are welcome and part of the cyber family?

Just think about it a while, it might make sense!

George


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## MesquiteMan (Jul 11, 2007)

I agree with George 100%.


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## Thumbs (Jul 11, 2007)

Very nicely stated, George![]  I agree 110%![]


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## Mudder (Jul 11, 2007)

> _Originally posted by Texatdurango_
> <br />Guys, does it really bust your chops to have to answer a question that has been asked 713 times before?  If so, just skip over the posts, but come on... don't cripple the new folks from participating the only way they know how!
> 
> George




George,

You have valid points but I think there is also a double edge sword here. How welcome would a newbie feel if he asked the question for the 714th time and everyone skipped over his post and there was no replies?

I remember when I started; I remember lurking for weeks reading the articles and absorbing all the information that I could before I made my first post. I remember asking a question and being asked if I had bothered to search the archives because my answer was there. I posted that I had, and even posted a couple links that I had found but were not the answerers that I was looking for. I show that I tried to find the answer myself but failed and then a member showed me where it was and we have become good friends.

I think the crux of this thread is to let folks know that they should at least take the time to search for the answer themselves before they post a question that has been asked 713 times before.


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## Dario (Jul 11, 2007)

I agree with Jason and George.

Though we want to encourage everyone to learn how to use the search function...we also want to keep updating answers to previous questions.  New products come out, new application of old products are discovered, new twists can be added to an old procedure, etc.  I cannot count the times that I've seen same questions that got fresh answers and ideas.

I also agree that a forum is a place where people "talk" and if the newbies get shy asking questions, the forum may die.  Old timers may know other members well enough to post BS over anything (like yours truly [] ) but that is a luxury new comers don't have.  We need all the fresh blood to come out and if asking questions (even if asked a million times before) will open the door for them...I would encourage them to do so.

There is of course a happy medium for all these and as far as I am concerned...the forum is GREAT as it is right now. []


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## jtate (Jul 11, 2007)

So can someone tell me - what's so great about a CA finish?  And - How do I do a CA finish properly?


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## leehljp (Jul 11, 2007)

Scott (Mudder): _I remember when I started; I remember lurking for weeks reading the articles and absorbing all the information that I could before I made my first post. I remember asking a question and being asked if I had bothered to search the archives because my answer was there. I posted that I had, and even posted a couple links that I had found but were not the answerers that I was looking for. I show that I tried to find the answer myself but failed and then a member showed me where it was and we have become good friends._

Scott was one of two people that pointed me to this forum almost 3 years ago, and his answer above was very similar to my experience. When I have a problem, I usually go to the search or archives first, or to the links and articles on the home page of IAP. (BTW, I started with the article links on the home page and still go to those often.)

To me, the greatest benefits that I have received have been the 1. searches and links,  2. the journey of experiences -both failures and discoveries, 3. people's answers and usually in that order. I really appreciate answers and help, <b> but good questions usually reflect that the problem has been researched and solutions have been attempted. </b> I learned this from some great teachers and my dad a long time ago. 

Good inquiries for help don't make blanket statements - that some well used method is a failure because one or several people cannot duplicate it. That reflects arrogance, and most experienced people, who could help, will stay away from helping. Or it will start a flame war . . . or bring out the painful truth. []

Lou wrote on the first page of this post: _Pen making should be an adventure with some excellent side trips and some that don't pan out. &lt;snip&gt; How can you know the answer for you if you consistently look for a quick answer._

For me, <b>the journey of pen making</b> is/has been as much fun as the finished product. I loved Old Griz's, Lou's and many other's beautifully designed and finished pens. I am no where near those standards, but the journey to get that level is as much fun as the finished product. I am kinda glad that journey's end is still far off, because I know that I am going to discover a lot more between now and then!

Yep, ask questions, but let the content of the questions reflect that "some" effort, desire and thought has been attempted before hand.


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## ed4copies (Jul 11, 2007)

This thread has certainly matured.

I enjoy good discussions, thanks to all for some good reading.[][][]

But, it's not the FIRST time this topic has been discussed, either.[:0][:0][:0]


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## leehljp (Jul 11, 2007)

> _Originally posted by jtate_
> <br />So can someone tell me - what's so great about a CA finish?  And - How do I do a CA finish properly?


Psychotherapist - Ha Ha ha! Trying to pull our leg? I fell for it!


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## wdcav1952 (Jul 11, 2007)

Yep, ask questions, but let the content of the questions reflect that "some" effort, desire and thought has been attempted before hand.

Now that should be a sticky!!


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## jtate (Jul 11, 2007)

Hank,
  No really, psychotherapy, that's my day job!  Messing with you guys is just for fun!
Julia


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## ed4copies (Jul 11, 2007)

Man,

You SHOULD have a LOT of FUN!!!

We're easy.


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## eskimo (Jul 11, 2007)

Julia,

To CA, or not to CA.  Sounds like a great way to troll fro new clients.

Bob, or my evil alter-ego, Eskimo


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## wdcav1952 (Jul 11, 2007)

> _Originally posted by ed4copies_
> <br />Man,
> 
> You SHOULD have a LOT of FUN!!!
> ...



For what it's worth, Ed, most people with the name Julia are women.[]


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## ed4copies (Jul 11, 2007)

That would be the expletive "Man" as opposed to the "oh, sh_____!!!" expletive, which it replaced.

"Woman" just would NOT have the same "ring" (as in tonal quality, not wedded bliss).

BTW, has Nancy seen that comment about 2nd marriages from the other day?  What did you say her e-mail address is!!!???  I think you need something IMPORTANT to do, and I can help you find it!!!![}][}][}]


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## eskimo (Jul 11, 2007)

Back to the topic of this thread....

The posts that have been most beneficial to me are the ones that are comprehensive enough to include the process that led to the opinion, as the opinion is generally a result of the process.

As an example, If you don't like CA as a finish, explain how you sanded & applied the finish that you don't like.  Perhaps the issue is with the process. (Was the CA applied with paper towels or cloth rags, lathe turning or not, what speed, sanding between coats or not, thin or thick, etc.)

I would expect the poster to accept both positive and negative feedback about the process, however when the thread devolves into personal comments about someones approach is when it becomes counter-productive.  I appreciate knowing that I did something wrong.  I appreciate more a suggestion of "Try this".  A response of "You did it wrong and were stupid for doing it that way" accomplishes very little.  I appreciate the experience that is represented on this site and can understand that there is a level of frustration about retracing elementary steps, however we all have to travel those same steps to gain the experience.

Also, please recognize that the one area that newbies cannot realistically try before asking the question is related to durability.  I could wait 6 months to see how a particular finish holds up, but the experiences of others, under various use conditions is very beneficial.

Bob


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## ed4copies (Jul 11, 2007)

Bob,
Crafting a sentence on a computer keyboard is not everyone's forte!!

Would that we could speak!!  Many of these spats would be avoided.  

I was impressed that Russ did NOT react with "good-by, good luck" after the last altercation degenerated.  And, I was also impressed with the explanation "Tex" gave later.  It seems that, given time, the existing group can get along pretty well.  No moderator intervention required and the "spin-off topics" handled well.

None of us is looking for an argument, I don't believe.  But, many feel strongly about THEIR chosen technique, pen kit, wood vs plastic, etc.

Hopefully, we all remember, this is about PENS, not world peace.  More than one way can be correct and not every contibutor is Ernest Hemmingway on the keyboard.  As long as the squabbles are ironed out in the end, we can achieve "peaceful co-existence" and continue to learn from each other's mistakes.  This forum continues to mature and these misunderstandings seem to occur less often and contain less venim.  All good things!!![][][]

FWIW    
Ed


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## eskimo (Jul 11, 2007)

Ed,

I appreciate your comments and agree with the majority, however the point that I was attempting to make was that IMHO the inability to construct a sentence or the passion one feels for their craft should not relieve them from exercising courtesy.

Bob


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## GaryMGg (Jul 11, 2007)

Random response, not directed to anyone; this is me Kerouacishly (?) streaming consciousness, or the lack thereof []
I just read the following posted on another forum in reference to not being afraid to learn by doing
and trial-and-error as well as not requiring someone to tell you how to do everything and it speaks volumes to me:



> Continue to "embarrass yourself"
> You will learn a lot more than watching someone else.
> The guy who did ANYTHING first.
> Who did he watch?



Gary


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## gerryr (Jul 11, 2007)

> _Originally posted by ed4copies_
> <br />
> None of us is looking for an argument, I don't believe.



I'm going to beat Cav to it.  Two negatives in the sentence, therefore we all all looking for an argument.[][}]


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## wdcav1952 (Jul 11, 2007)

Gerry, I also would say that the is should be are, and venom is not spelled venim.  Other than that, Ed is right on! [}]


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## ctwxlvr (Jul 11, 2007)

ok my two cents worth.....

yes the regular search engine works, if you know what your asking it, but there are a lot of people who are for the lack of better terms logic illiterate, before anyone gets in a rough about it, in order for a search engine to work it needs:

1. a engine that has some sort of logic in it to do a search
2. a minimum set of parameters that allow the engine to work at an acceptable error rate vs speed(to avoid timeouts)
3. an input that meets the requirements of number 2.

for most search engines this means the user and server need fast connections, and the input needs to be more than 5 letters for the first word of the search, a lot of search engines won't take two letters in the search input. 

The more words that are key the better and faster the search, a lot of new people know what they want to ask, but not how to ask it from the search engine of the site.

if you do a search on Google for "CA Finish" and you get over 3,500,000 entries, of those maybe 5 to 10 accutally are what your asking for, the same goes for our forum for a new person to pen turning that can be and is overwhelming, and they can get lost in all the information we have on CA both as a glue and as a finish.

I personally tend to start reading the results from the searches I do and end up getting side tracked, i.e. looking for out of round and ended up reading about how some acrylics that are "multi-colors" can sand at different rates depending on the color.... was looking for bent mandrel information.


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## gerryr (Jul 11, 2007)

> _Originally posted by wdcav1952_
> <br />Gerry, I also would say that the is should be are, and venom is not spelled venim.  Other than that, Ed is right on! [}]



With all the respect due your age and coveted status as the resident steward of grammer, you are DEAD WRONG about the 'is.'  The word none is like the word anybody and you would not say "anybody are."  

You are however correct about venum.[][]


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## ed4copies (Jul 11, 2007)

Actually Gerry, NONE is a contraction of "not one" and, as such my double negative would mean that either zero or some number more than one are looking for a fight.  I think I just found it with you and Cav, so TWO were found!!!!!

Fortunately there will be no injuries, since we are experienced "fighters" and all other members should be encouraged "NOT to try this at home - leave it to the unpaid professionals!!!".[:0][:0][:0][:0]

Really busy today, so proofreading has not been on the agenda - SORRY!!


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## LEAP (Jul 11, 2007)

Hey Jeff, 
Is there a way to list the most common searches? Knowing what the most people are looking for might help direct your fledgling support group to which tutorials are most wanted.


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## wdcav1952 (Jul 11, 2007)

Gerry, much as it pains me, I have to admit you are right.  Sorry, Ed, this admission took so much out of me that I have to retire from the fray to rest and plan my next devious post. [B)]


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## ahoiberg (Jul 11, 2007)

we're all a bunch of pen dorks who obviously love making pens enough to join an internet forum about them. and the fact will remain, as long as questions are posed, they will be answered in one form or another. the nice thing about having a continual flow of new members is that those of us who may recently have been asking for advice can now excitedly answer questions to those that are currently asking for it. and those who don't feel like answering a question for the umpteenth time don't have to... 

and i know my question asking days are far from over, so look out! []

tis a beautiful thing that has been created here!


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## Mudder (Jul 11, 2007)

> _Originally posted by ctwxlvr_
> <br />If you do a search on Google for "CA Finish" and you get over 3,500,000 entries, of those maybe 5 to 10 accutally are what your asking for, the same goes for our forum for a new person to pen turning that can be and is overwhelming, and they can get lost in all the information we have on CA both as a glue and as a finish.



I just did a google on ca finish and got 4,040,400 hits but if you put the words in quotations like "ca finish" you cut the hits down to 4,190
Perhaps we could use a tutorial on effective search techniques.


I have another idea...... I belong to a number of forums where you are sent a FAQ file when you join. Might something like that help us?


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## gerryr (Jul 11, 2007)

> _Originally posted by Mudder_
> <br />
> I have another idea...... I belong to a number of forums where you are sent a FAQ file when you join. Might something like that help us?



I do believe you're on to something there.


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## Scott (Jul 11, 2007)

Hello Friends!

This is a great topic!  I hope you donâ€™t mind if I join in.

I will not join either side of this issue, because I think youâ€™re all right!  Yes, it would be great if everybody searched the archives before asking questions!  And yes, I encourage people to ask questions, even if they are the same question asked many times before!

This place is about education.  And it is about fellowship.

Education is a long journey on a circular path.  As we learn, we begin to be able to teach at some point.  As we teach, we find how little we know, and begin to learn again!  There is a constant stream of people coming to our site, with a need to learn what we know.  Some naturally dive into the archives, but others naturally ask, and when the answers come they are able to discern not only the worth of the answer, but the worth of the answerer.  

By this I mean that there is more to answering these simple questions than imparting the same basic information over and over again.  The answering is a connection between people.  People join the IAP not because it is the best repository of penturning data in the universe, but because of the people here, and the connection they can make with them!

So the question is merely the means.  The end result is fellowship.  If you answer the same-old-question with â€œYour question is beneath us, check the archives before bothering us againâ€, then the only thing you have taught the person is that this is not the place for them.

I have always felt it is important to respond to the questions advanced by newcomers to this site, because it shows what kind of community this is.  While their question may be painfully repetitive to us, it is of vast importance to them, and how important it is to them makes it important to me!  I no longer answer every question myself.  I donâ€™t need to.  There are so many good people here who have gone from being the student to being the teacher, and they answer the question better than I could have.  I have instead have come around to understanding how little I know, and am again the student.

The best thing about the IAP is that it is a kind and compassionate community.  While I feel we have one of the best repositories of penturning information in the world, I donâ€™t think there has been a question asked here that hasnâ€™t also been answered at the Yahoo Penturners.  So to exist we have to be better.  And to be better, we need more than just â€œWhy donâ€™t you look up that information in the library before bothering us?â€

Be kind to your fellow penturner.  Learn what you need to, then teach what you can.  And above all else, have fun!

Scott.


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## edman2 (Jul 11, 2007)

Scott,
Well said. Relationships, relationships, relationships!  I do believe you are on to something here. I really like the idea of a FAQ being sent to new members when they join. It could not only give them some handles on basic topics especially if the "answers" were links to the database but it would teach about using the search function from the front end.  And...we could still answer all questions that came. Best of both worlds.


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## mdburn_em (Jul 11, 2007)

I, too, like the idea of a faq being sent to new members.  It is the family atmosphere that I so much enjoy here.  I've been to other sites, but I like this one.  Like real families, fights  occasionally break out.  

I have another idea.  

How about creating another forum like the library, but instead of subcategories like years, name them the questions that get asked most often.  I can think of some off the top of my head.

"Who makes the best click pen?"
"What's the best pen finish?"
"My CA finish method?" 
"Pricing pens?"
"What do I need to get started?"
"Where is the best place to buy supplies?"

We have had excellent tutorials written about the CA finish.  That being said, I have Gerryr's and Cozee's Ca finish copied as well, and they're not in the Library.  The more I read about CA, the more my brain starts mulling it over and I start thinking of different things to try.  Everybody who does something different could post.  Talk about resources for new turners.

I often find it hard to find a thread that I have read before and then want to re-read it.


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## gerryr (Jul 11, 2007)

Speaking of the library, I don't see what purpose having the articles grouped by the year it was posted serves.  I think it would be easier for everyone if there was just one "Articles" category.


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## leehljp (Jul 11, 2007)

On a woodworking forum that used to be, great, exceptional and extraordinary posts were moved by the moderator to a special forum after it ran its course of a week or two. Everyone could access it just like any individual forum. It provided both a quick access via link or reference, or immediate access without having to do a search. Just go to the "Special Posts" forum - that is where great "posts" are located. 

It is my guess that 75% of all requests for information are contained or summarized within less than 1% of the posts.

Under a "Specials" or "Knowledge Base" forum, have two separate departments: 1. Great posts, 2. Articles. Links and references would be much easier to offer; "search challenged" individuals would find it easier to access.

Just my 2 yen! []


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## Mudder (Jul 12, 2007)

> _Originally posted by gerryr_
> <br />Speaking of the library, I don't see what purpose having the articles grouped by the year it was posted serves.  I think it would be easier for everyone if there was just one "Articles" category.



Funny you should mention that Gerry;

There is now a team in place that will look at the situation and see what we can do to improve the library experience. Look for a new thread shortly


Hank;

Dur to the exchange rate you'll have to kick in an extra Yen to be recognized. [}]


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## wdcav1952 (Jul 12, 2007)

Wow, I never started a thread that went over a thousand views!!

The direction this thread has taken shows what I like about this site.  There have been some serious posts, some frivolous posts, (Ed's specialty), some <b>very</b> mature thoughts, (thanks Gerry), some disagreement, and finally, a potential great result that I never thought of when I started the thread.

Yes we fight occasionally, like all families.  Those who choose to fan the flames of a fight hopefully will learn from this to back off, and act like family members.

Thanks to Jeff, Scott, all the moderators and those with enough computer knowledge to bring to fruition the planned changes.


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## mdburn_em (Jul 12, 2007)

> _Originally posted by wdcav1952_
> <br />Wow, I never started a thread that went over a thousand views!!



Good for you, Cav...very good and thought provoking topic.
I think you are still experiencing the feeling that George alluded to in a post a couple pages back.



> Ever notice how silly, repetative or simple some of the questions seem? ... Ever wonder why? Ever think that some folks just want to be part of the forum?



I have been on the forum long enough to experience the "Wow, not that question again..." and at the same time, enjoy seeing people, who, I remember asking that same question, being the first one to post replies.

I'm not sure how much I can do, but, I would like to offer my services to the team that is going to be working on the site.  If you need any grunt work done in coraling information or just anything in general, I would like to help.


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## Texatdurango (Jul 12, 2007)

> _Originally posted by gerryr_
> <br />Speaking of the library, I don't see what purpose having the articles grouped by the year it was posted serves.  I think it would be easier for everyone if there was just one "Articles" category.


I Agree 100%!

The following is not meant to be inflammatory, just pointing out what I see is part of the problem being discussed here and I write this in hopes that further harmony on the forum is attainable and new ideas are beneficial to current and future newbies.

In the few months that I have been a member I have seen several flair ups, disputes, thread hijacking, ugly word exchanges, etc. where the root cause of the problem was who's idea was first, who invented a particular technique, who coined a phrase, Joe's "perfect" CA method was questioned or is better than Fred's, Jim's sanding or finishing process is the best because he's been doing it longer, etc.

To me, there is a clear division on this forum... the newbies and the elders.  The elders wrote articles, derived processes and perfected turning methods years ago and many consider their words to be gospel and any further discussion or improvement of said processes or challenging the validity of said techniques is almost paramount to IAP treason.

I think that not only doing away with dated material would help but also put the articles into a help area without identifying ownership.

Now before everyone starts booing the idea, just think about it.

The bottom line is to share ideas right?  OK, the newbies really don't care what a process is called or who did it first so the anonymity would help stop the who did what first, or who owns a certain technique,... because if we are all truly here to help each other and have a good time making pens... it really doesn't matter does it?  

Recently I wrote a short tutorial on how I did a knot design because many folks emailed me asking how I did this or that.  It doesn't matter if my name is not associated with the tutorial because I want no notoriety or compensation for it or future writings, and it shouldn't matter if Sam came up with the knot idea first or that Fred wrote a similar tutorial two years ago... it just doesn't matter, itâ€™s sharing ideas that matters.  After all, these aren't top secret formulas for the secret sauce at McDonalds!

Undated, anonymous articles would provide the desired results as the newbies donâ€™t need to know when the articles were written or by whom, just that they were!  And if a few egos were put in check around here, I think the library would work beautifully, just list them from A to Z or from topicâ€¦ and I have some ideas on that too but this is getting long! [] 

Well, that's how I see it.

George

P.S. I may not be able to respond in a timely manner, we change RV parks today and I don't know if the next one down the road will afford me access to the internet or not.


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## Dario (Jul 12, 2007)

> _Originally posted by Texatdurango_
> <br />
> To me, there is a clear division on this forum... the newbies and the elders.  The elders wrote articles, derived processes and perfected turning methods years ago and many consider their words to be gospel and any further discussion or improvement of said processes or challenging the validity of said techniques is almost paramount to IAP treason.



I agree with most of what you said but I don't know about this part.


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## ctwxlvr (Jul 12, 2007)

I see a division in the forums but it is not so much "Elders" and "Newbies" but people jumping in criticizing a person about opening a new topic on what he perceives has been answered a million times in as many topics, and people that are looking for help and those that are willing to answer it even though it has been answered  million times before. 

I think we have all been overwhelmed with the amount of information available on this site, it is a lot and not everybody is able to access it through a search, be it not sure what to ask the search engine or too slow a connection to allow the search to complete before it times out, the big search engines use a keep alive script that allows slower connections to remain connected, but it eats up a lot of bandwidth.  

There may be some changes coming soon that will make the information offered on the main site easier to find and a more extensive FAQ list addressing some of these questions we have all seen pop up from time to time.


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## gerryr (Jul 12, 2007)

> _Originally posted by Dario_
> <br />
> 
> 
> ...



I basically agree with Dario on this.  I don't see that division never recall seeing it, unless you're talking about the mindless banter that goes on amongst certain folks.  I remember seeing that when I first found the site a couple years ago.  I thought, "wow, these people really know each other."  I have a friend who is much better at making pens than I and he has often been viewed as being extremely opinionated.  We don't always agree on how to do something but there's never been even a hint of "my way is the only way."  I have seen that from maybe 2-3 people who sometimes visit this site, but it is far from common.

That's my $1 worth(have to account for inflation).


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## LEAP (Jul 12, 2007)

I agree with Dario on this point. There are a few "sensative" individuals who get a little defensive or get into arguementative moods. There have been more than a few times where I have read a post and thought that was an A.H. response but those same people have later written long informative answers to newbie questions that were both considerate and friendly. I have been personally impressed by the thoughtful and informative responses my questions have generated. Though on occasion they have shown me that there is more than one way to skin a cat and that each way is the only acceptable method.  

On a side note. The written word does not contain the clues we all use during personal conversation. The emoticons are a poor substitute for a genuine smile and relaxed body language. It is very easy to read something into a post or email that was never intended. If we read something that bothers us it may be best to not respond right away. Give it a little time to digest and we might find that it's not worth the effort or further posts may clarify the subject and we find our original impression was not what was intended. 

I've babbled long enough,  great thread, hope good things like this continue.


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## GoodTurns (Jul 12, 2007)

> _Originally posted by mdburn_em_
> <br />I, too, like the idea of a faq being sent to new members.



I just signed up for the Yahoo group. when I got back to my mailbox, I found these messages waiting for me:

penturners Moderator 	 File - Tips and Tricks.pdf 	
penturners Moderator 	 File - Penturners FAQ.htm
penturners Moderator 	 Yahoo! Groups: Welcome to penturners. 
penturners Moderator   	 File - Penturners Group Rules.htm 	

The emails attached go into LOTS of detail, contain a ton of info, and I will probably refer to them before posting a question.  something similar would be a great addition to this site.


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## Ron in Drums PA (Jul 12, 2007)

> _Originally posted by Texatdurango_
> 
> To me, there is a clear division on this forum... the newbies and the elders.  The elders wrote articles, derived processes and perfected turning methods years ago and many consider their words to be gospel and any further discussion or improvement of said processes or challenging the validity of said techniques is almost paramount to IAP treason.



I think if there is a problem with any "division", it's self imposed. I still consider myself a student and find that I can learn from anyone regardless of how long they are turning. Each of us bring of own previous experiences when we first learn to turn and those experiences reflect what we do on a lathe. A new turner can as easily see something in a different way as a turner that has been turning for a few years.

Challenging techniques is not paramount to treason, I think it's comical to even suggest that. All turners challenge techniques, if you don't challenge, you stagnate. 

But lets face it, after turning for a few years it possible they may know what works and what doesn't. They may have an idea where potential problems lie. Conversely, a new turner who thinks an "elder" has perfected has a process has a few more lessons to learn. Every turner I know who has been turning for more than a few years is still learning new techniques. 

There is a turner on WoodCentral that has been turning for 70 years. About a year ago he started learning how to embellish his turnings by burning in designs. About a half year ago he was looking for critiques  with his finials for his very thin hollow forms.

Bottom Line: Put 20 pen turners in a room and you will find 20 different techniques for turning pens and they will all be right.


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## Mudder (Jul 12, 2007)

> _Originally posted by Texatdurango_
> <br />To me, there is a clear division on this forum... the newbies and the elders.  The elders wrote articles, derived processes and perfected turning methods years ago and many consider their words to be gospel and any further discussion or improvement of said processes or challenging the validity of said techniques is almost paramount to IAP treason.




I'm a little confused here George;

I don't Think I've noticed a separation or division on this forum but It's been a long time since I was a newbie so it might be that I'm on the other side of this fence and I did not notice or pay attention to it, I'll try to pay closer attention to it in the future.

As to your second statement I have to disagree and ask you to show me an example of what your talking about.






> _Originally posted by Texatdurango_
> <br />
> 
> I think that not only doing away with dated material would help but also put the articles into a help area without identifying ownership.



How are we to know and determine what material is "dated"? Who is to decide what should stay and what should go?

There are some who would be content on submitting an article anonymously and others who would not. I for one would not have written a tutorial or taken the time to make a video tutorial if it had to be submitted anonymously and I'm sure that we would stifle the creativity  on the site if that were to pass.

My feeling is that all articles should be posted and the membership should have the right to pick and choose what article we read. Perhaps one person does not have a pressure pot to do casting and if there was only one article on casting then they would be out of luck. Perhaps it was by reading all that is available on casting that a person was able to improve on or use a technique from two different articles to come up with an even better process. Why limit ourselves?

This is my opinion only and I'm open to anyone who has an opposing viewpoint.


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## Milpaul (Jul 12, 2007)

I think Texatdurango makes some excellent points, although I would like to keep the authors name on tutorials in case we need to contact them with a question or comment. I agree with the observation that their is some division between the newbies (like myself[]) and the elders. I'm sure they don't realize it or do it on purpose but some feel their response carry more weight because they have 3000 posts than others who only have 100. Some of us don't have that much time to post, or only post if they feel they really have something important to say. I have even seen a response to my question changed after one of the veterans talked them out of it. Although there is merit to something being done a certain way for so many years or by so many people, it doesn't mean there isn't a better way. Maybe it's just me, but I learn more from new ideas and suggestions and usually stop listening when I hear "everybody does it this way" or "we have been doing it this way for xx years." We can all learn from each post. I am a supervisor at my job, and have had some pretty strange questions asked, but I have tried to learn from all of them. 
 Sorry for the ranting, this is one of the few times I thought I had something important to say! [xx(][xx(][xx(]


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## Ron in Drums PA (Jul 12, 2007)

> _Originally posted by Texatdurango_
> 
> In the few months that I have been a member I have seen several flair ups, disputes, thread hijacking, ugly word exchanges, etc. where the root cause of the problem was who's idea was first, who invented a particular technique, who coined a phrase, Joe's "perfect" CA method was questioned or is better than Fred's, Jim's sanding or finishing process is the best because he's been doing it longer, etc.



Get over it. 
There will always be those that came before us and there will always be those that come after us.



> I think that not only doing away with dated material would help but also put the articles into a help area without identifying ownership.



I Strongly Disagree. 
Give me one good reason why I shouldn't have my name on a tutorial. 

If I can't have my name on a tutorial, give me one good reason why I should spend the time to write one. It can take days, even weeks to write a good tutorial. 



> The bottom line is to share ideas right?  OK, the newbies really don't care what a process is called or who did it first so the anonymity would help stop the who did what first, or who owns a certain technique,... because if we are all truly here to help each other and have a good time making pens... it really doesn't matter does it?



Yes it does matter.
Just like you enjoy getting an atta boy on SOYP. I enjoy being acknowledged for the techniques I've developed. I also enjoy sharing my ideas. But when people demand that I share my ideas, it just ticks me off.

Would you anonymously post a picture of a new pen that you made? 
If you did, how many times would you anonymously post a picture of a new pen if you where not allowed to tell others you made it.




> Undated, anonymous articles would provide the desired results as the newbies donâ€™t need to know when the articles were written or by whom, just that they were!  And if a few egos were put in check around here, I think the library would work beautifully, just list them from A to Z or from topicâ€¦ and I have some ideas on that too but this is getting long!



Sorry Comrad, I enjoy sharing what I have learned, but I get the feeling you think we owe you something. That leaves a sour taste in my mouth.

Of all the arts that are practiced by the people in this world, I don't think there is one that can match the way turners share their ideas. They share because they are good people. But insisting they they not be acknowledge is just plain petty on your part.


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## rd_ab_penman (Jul 12, 2007)

But, it's not the FIRST time this topic has been discussed, either.[:0][:0][:0]
[/quote]

Where are we going with all this guys? From a newbe!

Les in Alberta



<br />


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## ed4copies (Jul 12, 2007)

Hey Cav, you're headed for 1500 viewings!!![:0][:0]


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## mdburn_em (Jul 12, 2007)

George, you definitely have a knack for causing spirited conversation.  That's a good thing.  
I don't really agree that there is that big a division on the site.  (Gerry, of course you don't think there's a division, you're one of 'em.  [] )  
There is a division because there are certain people I pay attention to more than others.  (You are also one of those Gerry.)  I give weight to the words of those who have demonstrated they deserve that respect.  I don't really care if you've got 2 or 2000 posts.  
Like it or not, the division is human nature and I don't think it will go away, nor is it bad if used properly.
As far as fights because of who had the idea first, I must not be paying attention that closely, because you really surprised me with that statement.  I've never seen it, (doesn't mean it's not there) of course, I've never been accused of being particularly observant.

Statements I dread:  "Honey, do you notice anything different?"  [xx(]


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## GaryMGg (Jul 12, 2007)

I hope I don't get it for stickin' my foot in this one.
I'm having a terrible time keeping this straight, so I cheated.
Forgive me for the markup:



> &lt;GB&gt; In the few months that I have been a member I have seen several flair ups, .... where the root cause of the problem was who's idea was first....





> &lt;RS as edited by me&gt; <s> Let it go </s> ...


My personal feeling is that I want to know who developed a technique first, who built on it, who perfected one, et al. The lack of anonymity affords me an opportunity to develop relationships outside the forum. I have expanded my circle of friends and acquaintences by getting to know some of these people personally not just online.



> &lt;GB&gt; I think that not only doing away with dated material would help but also put the articles into a help area without identifying ownership.





> &lt;RS&gt; I Strongly Disagree.  Give me one good reason why I shouldn't have my name on a tutorial.
> If I can't have my name on a tutorial, give me one good reason why I should spend the time to write one. It can take days, even weeks to write a good tutorial.



The above shows that folks have different needs, expectations, goals and desires; this forum can accomodate both without a problem.

George, I've already commented as to why I like knowing who wrote a tutorial and Ron's response shows why we wouldn't want to end that practice YET it doesn't require those who want to submit tutorials anonymously from doing so.

As to doing away with dated material, Jeff has a cadre of volunteers to go through the material provided here, restructure it, reorganize it and help make it more accessible. Stuff that's deemed outdated, if there is any, will likely loose its URL. New material is being requested, harvested, and collected.

Ron, personal motives drive different people to do things so I can't give YOU a good reason to submit an anonymous tutorial, thus I won't try. Having said that, others might just want to do that and if so it's fine. Again, room for both.



> &lt;RS&gt; Sorry Comrad...I get the feeling you think we owe you something. That leaves a sour taste in my mouth.



I don't read George that way -- again, showing there are many opinions amongst us.
However, I have a long memory and am pretty good at searching, hence:
http://www.penturners.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=25375
-- if it's festering it needs to heal. It's [xx(], RIP.
What's good for the goose is good for the gander, so:

"Let it go"

[][][]

Kind regards,
Gary


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## Scott (Jul 12, 2007)

I have truly enjoyed reading all the posts in this thread!  Thank you all for participating!  It is nice to have confirmed for me, yet again, how much the people at IAP really care.

George brought up some interesting points.  We have always had this quandary about acknowledging the extent to which someone participates here.  On one hand it is nice to thank those who participate.  But it is erroneous to think that any numbers relate to wisdom!  Please donâ€™t think that just because weâ€™ve been around a while, that we know everything!  The longer I am involved in penturning, the more I come to realize how little I really do know!  Every time I visit the IAP, which is most every day, I learn something new, and often it is a newbie to the site that is doing the teaching!  But like I said before, this site is about people â€“ all of us â€“ and it would be wrong to fail to acknowledge each individualâ€™s contributions.

I am encouraged by the level of commitment engendered by this thread!  We have been trying to generate some new articles for the site for some time.  But they just arenâ€™t coming in.  We have some very talented people on this site.  The articles that could be written just by the people who have posted on this thread are mind-boggling!  So I would like to challenge you to stop thinking about it, and write an article!  If you have never written an article before, and you donâ€™t know if you can do it, I assure you that you can!  I would volunteer to help with editing any article submitted to this site, if asked.  I put it that way because I wouldnâ€™t want to impose my editing on somebody who didnâ€™t want it.

A lot of people donâ€™t write articles because they feel it has been done before.  Well, maybe the topic has come up before, but not from your perspective, and not with your unique take on the subject.  So please take this challenge, and write an article for the IAP!  I will even accept my own challenge, and write some new articles for the IAP.  Pick out your favorite pen, and write!

I can hardly wait!

Scott.


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## Mudder (Jul 12, 2007)

> _Originally posted by Scott_
> <br />A lot of people donâ€™t write articles because they feel it has been done before.  Well, maybe the topic has come up before, but not from your perspective, and not with your unique take on the subject.  So please take this challenge, and write an article for the IAP!  I will even accept my own challenge, and write some new articles for the IAP.  Pick out your favorite pen, and write!
> 
> I can hardly wait!
> ...




Amen my brother.


I wish I could have said it that way.


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## Ron in Drums PA (Jul 12, 2007)

> > _Originally posted by GaryMGg_
> > &lt;RS&gt; Sorry Comrad...I get the feeling you think we owe you something. That leaves a sour taste in my mouth.
> 
> 
> ...



I won't argue the fact that I am a curmudgeon. 
But I do have a short memory, I forgot about that one Gary. 
Thanks for reminding me[]


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## wdcav1952 (Jul 12, 2007)

Thanks, Ed, I ran out of fingers and toes to count the views of the thread! [)]

George, I have to say I disagree with your interpretation of the division on the site.  Having said that, what is important is that you see the division.  Whether that is important to me, or any of the other "old timers" doesn't matter.  However, we can't really make you feel at home.  Frankly,  you seem to be doing well at making yourself a part of the forum.  Posting your work and writing a tutorial are good ways of doing that.

The post count someone mentioned has been tossed around from time to time. Lots of us consider it interesting to see who joins the HAC (Hot Air Club)  Hey, I joined way before Dario, and English is his second language.  Check out his post count! []  Some have had the post count removed from their profile, others, like me, don't consider it important enough to worry about.

As far as fights, hey, we have had a bunch, and will have more.  So what?  I have made friends from those I had fights with, and have a great time teasing back and forth with other members.  Families fight, spouses fight, so why should be be surprised when we fight?

I still love this site, and visit it very regularly, even on my gov't computer at work. (Shhhh!)

Now, let's sit back and wait for Scott's tutorial, which I personally believe he should sign his name to and claim full credit for.


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## arioux (Jul 12, 2007)

> _Originally posted by Texatdurango_
> 
> To me, there is a clear division on this forum... the newbies and the elders.



Well if this is , i was in the first category for a while and felt in the second the day i wrote my first answer to a newbie.  That day, i really felt like be a real part of this forum, shearing someting with someone else that did'nt know, even if i knew that for probably 95% of the other member this was a very basic question.  I WAS SHEARING SOMETHING.
Many comments where about the fact that many new user don't use the search engine.
1 - I found out about it when someone told me (and i was not upset but proud to see we add one
2 - The more i learned about pen turning, the easier it was for me to sturcture my search because i add a better idea of the terms and words to use.

Sometimes, the key words for a good search have noting in common with the question and the knowledge of a person will help her/him to make a good search, this is why IMHO newbies like i was have trouble finding the good answer.  So while the volunter get something organized, i suggest that when we answer a question that could have been find with a good search, we end our answer with:

"If you use the search button at the top of the page with these words "bla bla bla" you will find more details."

This will point a newbie to the search engine,  give him/her a new tool and shoul'nt hurt anyones feelings.

Now all you funny guys, don't tell me that the "bla bla bla" search don't work, try it you will find at least one topics[}]


Just my .02 cents (Canadian cents are a little less but getting closer[]) 

Alfred

P.S.  Jeff, if you ever need a translator (french[]) i'm in


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## rd_ab_penman (Jul 12, 2007)

> _Originally posted by arioux_
> 
> "If you use the search button at the top of the page with these words "bla bla bla" you will find more details."
> 
> ...


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## Texatdurango (Jul 12, 2007)

Not to put too fine of a point on it... but it's interesting that none of the "elders" see a division but most of the "short timers" do!  I almost hate to use the term "Clic" and don't even know if I spelled it correctly, but would that give a better idea to what a new comer might see in the forum?

Based on some emails I have received, I know I'm not the only newbie who sees this, perhaps I'm one of the few who aren't too bashful to discuss it.

Ron don't take everything so personal!  I was not directing my comments towards you, and there isn't a thing in the world that I think you or anyone else owes me.  You misread my post by a country mile!  But you do confirm one of my points that some may need to see their names up in lights so perhaps attaching the authors names to articles might be wise after all.

As far as dating articles, I was referring to not glumping them into years.

George...up in the mountains with no wifi for a while... bye for now!


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## gerryr (Jul 13, 2007)

I've been here less than 2 years and I'm an "elder?"  Because some of us correspond or actually talk on the telephone to one another outside this forum, that makes it a clique?  Being in Montana I guess I could claim the same thing about the people who get together at one of the Bubbasville meetings or any one of the other gatherings of penturners which always take place in areas where there are quite a few penturners.  When I first joined it was obvious to me that some people knew each other outside this forum.  I was jealous that they had friends that shared a common interest in making pens, but I didn't get upset about it and I never thought there was some exclusive group that had an impenetrable wall around it.  I've made friends through this forum although I have actually only met two in person, Anthony and Scott.  I've become friends with these people for various reasons.  With Anthony it was because I bought nibs from and peppered him with questions about fountain pens.  In Scott's case it was because he was looking for photos of pencils for an article he was writing and I sent him a couple.  With Lou Metcalf it was because I offered what I thought might be helpful suggestions about photography when I found out he's partially color blind.  With Eagle it was because he called me about a pen I posted a long time ago.  And with every other person it was because one of us started a dialog through the message system on this site about something.  I would suggest that rather than seeing things that I and some others don't see that you take the initiative and contact someone through the site.  If you have a question about how someone did something, send them a message through the site rather than posting the question.  I don't guarantee that it will work but it did for me and I know it has for others as well.


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## Thumbs (Jul 13, 2007)

Wow.  That's all I can say, "wow....."[xx(]


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## Thumbs (Jul 13, 2007)

6 pages worth of "wow......[xx(][xx(][xx(][xx(][xx(][xx(]"


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## Thumbs (Jul 13, 2007)

Okay, I know that wasn't nice but I'm just trying to improve the number of posts in this thread.  That's important, too, ya know.[]


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## Thumbs (Jul 13, 2007)

That's afterall what tells us how important and meaningful this discussion is and how much affect it will have on our forum's environment - vis a vis the unintended, I'm almost sure, division between newbies and oldies and other cliques of wannabees in the forum.

I've learned much reading this masterpiece of ......  Let's say, I'm sure we've all learned a lot of things.  I'm not sure how much we learned about methods of sharing that learning.  I mean other than pontificating from on high, deigning to share a few crumbs with the masses, how has all this gabble done anything to help.  I've seen any number of instances in this thread where certain people have been put down for voicing their asked for opinions and others again join in diminishing their input by acclamation more than reason.

I see no reason to hope our manners or behaviors will improve or change!
[]FWIW.........[:0]


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## leehljp (Jul 13, 2007)

George,

There is one subject that has not been named but it is quite evident within some of the posts here - "<b>Attitude</b>".  

A person's attitude during the writing of a post - conditions the questions; The way something is written subconsciously or consciously invites positive or negative response from others.

When someone is frustrated or not able to accomplish a method that they have read about, (even though others daily accomplish that very thing) - then for some, something in their attitude drives them to write statements like  "This method or wood or finish is not all its cracked up to be because I tried it" - when in fact many many have been successful. Something in the "Attitude" drives the questions . And those questions drive the response from those that know it does work!

<b>This is not a Newbie / Elder problem.</b> It is an attitude problem!

A recent problem where a person put his CA pen in his pants pocket and proclaimed that CA is not all its cracked up to be - is a prime example. The responses and dialogs were not a Elder/newbie problem at its root, but an Attitude and personal value problem that ended up blaming "elders versus newbies".

I read several people's CA articles and Russ's too. <b> I am DUMB! It took me 1 and 1/2 years to become consistent with CA application,</b> overcoming white spots, splotches, smoothness, clarity and getting a beautiful shine. I KNEW it could be done, but I couldn't do it. I It wasn't the fault of CA, sandpaper, lathe or bushing out of round, but my own inexperience. I owned up to the fact that it wasn't CA's fault or someone else's fault but my own. (And I have been working with wood since I was a kid in the '50s.) I fought the CA problems and wrestled with them. I listened to people here. In the end, it came down to enough of my own personal experience plus following other people's guidelines until I could "get the feel and experience" and recognize the potential problems before they started. I KNEW that I wanted a CA finish and stayed with it.

I never, in 1 1/2 years, felt that that others were wrong or that they didn't have high enough standards as I was expecting. <b>In my inexperience, I never even gave the first thought that there was a newbie/elder distinction here. </b>

I have noted distinct differences in the way people help on this forum. One guy came here and said that he had been looking and looking and would love to do pen making but could not afford it. I think there were enough personal donations that got him started. As a self proclaimed long term newbie, no one treated me in a condescending manner. (If they did, I am just dumb enough that I didn't notice.  [] ) I have been raked over the coals on a couple of occasions, but it wasn't a newbie / elder problem, but rather viewpoint, and I know the difference well enough to accept it as that.


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## Dario (Jul 13, 2007)

Well said Hank.

I too don't see a division but will say that friendship (or at least reputation) does influence some people's posts.  I know since I too am like that at times.  I received a few emails about my post (not believing about the division).  Familiarity with the "elder's" attitude may also affect posts.

Then again this happens all the time in the real world too.  I would treat my friend (or family) a bit more special than a stranger and I won't deny that.  I guess that is the same in forums as well.

Like the real world, I can know a person for years and not become his friend or can meet a person and be friends with him/her in minutes.

BTW, I hope "elder" as coined here doesn't mean post count...I am feeling older than my years already and don't want to add more to it [][}].


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## mdburn_em (Jul 13, 2007)

I wish to make things clear.

I do not see a click on this forum.  I never have.  Personally, I think that people who say there is a click, or an inpenetrable wall here, are choosing to make that wall.  It is attitude as has been mentioned.  The people who are accused as being in a high and mighty group are the ones who are most helpful, are the ones who have challenged me consistently.  They speak the truth, when the truth might not be pleasant.

Some people get offended when the crap they speak/show is called for what it is. 

I see people whose experience and pens make me listen more closely when they speak.  Cav--you are in the "EF(IAP) Hutton" group too.  Gerry, you are too.  I sincerely apologize if I offended you by including your name.  Your pens always have that WOW factor and I someday hope my pens will have the quality yours consistently display.


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## thewishman (Jul 13, 2007)

OK! Lets all join hands around the campfire and sing:

Kum-Ba-Ya, my lord, kum-ba-ya...[]

Have some more s'mores and enjoy the fun!

Chris


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## beamer (Jul 13, 2007)

I'm with Mark ... what click?

Does that make me an elder, too? COOL!!! 

Seriously ... I don't agree with the statement "most of the newer people see it" ... I'm newer people, and by my count in this thread, most of the newer people are NOT seeing this division. I see some people who seem to have chips on their shoulders, though. Now THAT is a division I see. A select few seem to be constantly battling for credibility (or whatever it is they're looking for). It's unfortunate, because credibility isn't fought for, it's earned with respect. It's not easy to respect someone who kicks and screams. Some people pull it off, but it's (imho) a much tougher road.

This place is by FAR the most heated forum I visit. BY FAR. I visit 3 other places regularly and one of them has a pretty wide reputation for being volatile. This place far outshines that one in terms of flare ups. We have lots of people who spout off only later to be corrected, and that's fine. It's part of IAP's charm and the group dynamic. It's not my favorite environment, for sure, but the bigger thing here is that IAP also has such a wealth of helpful information. It's information that is so valuable that it's worth the occasional flare up. I think the spirit of this thread is to try to make sure it stays that way.

Division or not, it's what this place is, and it's how it works. Nobody is forced to like it. Participation is completely voluntary. Selfless act or egotistical posts, it's the way this place is and will be for as long as the majority of it's membership finds it helpful. I guess what I'm saying is that this place works the way it is and new members either like it and find a way to participate all on their own or they don't like it and move on. This is only in reference to the click/division metioned. If we can make things easier for the new folks to find, i'm all in favor of that. I don't want to sound like it shouldn't change, appropriate change can be good.

I think the best advice I ever got was this: Welcome, take what you like and leave the rest.

.... re-reading before hitting send .... not my most elloquent, but i think it'll do


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## rd_ab_penman (Jul 13, 2007)

All this reminds me of the saying <b>"Those of you who think you know </b><b>it all are annoying to those of us who do."[][] </b>

Les in Alberta


<br />
"What's YOUR Carbon Footprint?"


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## ahoiberg (Jul 13, 2007)

well put Jason. i would also have to say this is the most volatile forum i visit as well. i'm a member of 3 or 4 others. but i think the volatility is a function of the number of members here. i love to tell my wife about the flare-ups here. she gets a kick out of it and has a hard time believing that grown men and women get into arguments over penturning on the internet... it's pretty silly when you think about it.

but the rewards of this site far outweigh any negative aspects. whenever the wife sees me on the computer, she asks, "you talking to your 'friends' again?"

elders, newbies, intermediaries, whatever we are, we're all part of a great group...

and Thumbs, I've never seen anyone post 4 times in a row, that's impressive. []


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## gerryr (Jul 13, 2007)

The argument about whether there is or is not a division is not going to be resolved.  Since it can't be resolved, my question to those who say there is a clique or division or whatever you want to call it, is what it is that you want or expect of those on the other side of this perceived divide?


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## ed4copies (Jul 13, 2007)

Cav,

<b><center>YOU HIT 2000!!!!</center></b>


and still goin' strong!!!  Ad nauseum


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## GoodTurns (Jul 13, 2007)

I propose two new cliques, one for those who believe we have cliques, and the other for.....wait, that won't work.....

I guess I am a "Newbie" and I have probably asked a few of the stupid questions, I have also received some very valuable advice in areas where I had/have very little experience.  The foundation of knowledge and talent here is incredible and actually begs to be tapped.

Three things hopefully we can ALL remember:
1)when someone says "Wow, you're good" that there are in fact two "o"'s in good
2)respect can only be earned, not demanded
3)those who look for offense will most likely find it everywhere they look.

my $0.02....and thanks for the insightful and entertaining thread![]


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## woodbutcher (Jul 13, 2007)

If questions are not asked and answers given,what else is this forum good for? I admit it is tiring to see the same old questions over and over again, but to the one asking it is a new adventure. I have asked few questions on this forum or on any other for that matter. It is certainly not because of my brilliance, someone else asked at the time I too needed the answer. To add to that I was in an industrial accident in 1993 and recieved life changing injuries. I have permanent brain damage (as if it isn't obvious[]). I am in pain 24/7 neck and back w/ migrain headaches. I will guarantee you there are days when my attitude is not good. I type like old people pole vault. I have learned so much from the people on this site. I still learn today and have been turning pens nearly 5 yrs. I am proud of my work but haven't posted pictures because I don't know how. I cannot focus and retain info like before I was injured. This too adds to frustration. I visit this site nearly every day, often more than once. I try to help a turner new or seasoned if an assist is asked and I feel I have a good answer. The real good news is I'm on some new and improved medicine. My point is this..If when I first signed on a FAQ would have been greatly appreciated. However I would hope a new turner with a question would not be sent to time out for asking what to them is a new and valid question. I see the experienced folks here as teachers and the inexperienced as students.


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## Penmonkey (Jul 13, 2007)

Oh boy..... another good waist of bandwidth thread... so lame.........
Pen politics.


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## wdcav1952 (Jul 13, 2007)

Tsk, tsk, Travis, and you call yourself a student.  Check your word usage. []

Personally, perhaps since I started the thread, I think it is serving a good purpose.  If you think it is a waist(sic) of bandwidth, don't click on it.  If it serves to clear the air and bring some of us closer together in our mindsets, I don't see it as a waste of bandwidth at all.


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## MarkHix (Jul 13, 2007)

Howdy!  I will put my nickle in the pot in on this.  I was not going to post at first because I am out of bandaides.  There seems to be 2 topics here:  repeat questions and cliques.  I am almost the newest member.  The first week after I found this site, I read thread after thread because they were fascinating. I learned alot.  Someone mentioned the search engine.  I found more info.  I opened the tutorials.  I learned more.  I had several issues tonight while I was working on a pen.  I found a solution to the main problem and a way to keep it from happening again all in some 2006 post. (Thanks ED!) I used the search engine.   It was easy.

Are there cliques...I do not think so.  If there are, I don't really care.  I felt like there were people that wanted to help and those that did not.  Just like every other group.  I noticed that as a percentage, a minority of the people that read a post post a reply.  They seem to be the same folks time after time.  They are also the ones that have provided the most help to us rookies. They are the reason I signed up.  I figured that if there was something I needed and could not fine, someone in this group would know.  Someday, I will not be the rookie.  I will be able to say: "I had the same issue and here is how I fixed it".  If I had found a site like this when I first started turning, I might have saved some disasters and the dent in my wife's bmw.  Probably not but I can dream.


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## gerryr (Jul 14, 2007)

Why would you need a bandaid?  Cav just got his rabies shot last week so I'm sure he won't bite.[]


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## DocStram (Jul 14, 2007)

...... don't mean to sound snobbish ... but, I like to think of myself a one-man clique. []


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## leehljp (Jul 14, 2007)

> _Originally posted by DocStram_
> <br />...... don't mean to sound snobbish ... but, I like to think of myself a one-man clique. []
> Al
> "Eschew Obfuscation, Espouse Elucidation"



. . . one-man clique: If the shoe fits! [8D]

"Eschew Obfuscation, Espouse Elucidation":  Now that's clear as mud! []


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## EeyorIs21 (Jul 14, 2007)

I just don't see a problem. The flare-ups are hilarious[]

I read article after article before I ever even joined. I was impressed with the knowledge available to me. I skimmed the entire library and all the videos. Not even looking for an answer to something specific but just to see if there was anything that peaked my interests. I would make a note and then review it later to see if something in that article or video could be applied to my technique or benefit my work in some way. I learned a lot the first couple months. I can't wait till the next tutorial gets posted. Even if it is something I have never done or am just not ready to go there yet I still skim them all. You never know what treasures you will find. 

And as far as the cliques go, who cares. I would skim the library and find a tutorial by JOHN DOE (names omitted to prevent starting something new), then another and yet another still. I would start to see a couple of names of folks who post lots, nothing wrong with that. Maybe the folks doing all the posting know the same stuff every one else does but were the few who were courteous enough to put down the gouge and make a tutorial that presented data in a way that was easy for them to understand and hopefully equally beneficial to those who are new to the craft or have limited experience with a certain technique/method. I think those who took the time to create a well-prepared tutorial deserve a little respect, they did it for free, nobody forced them, and they could have been making pens instead.[] They are not high and mighty about it either, they actually get involved in day-to-day conversations and questions on the website. The end of their articles always say this is what has worked for me (disclaimer that it may not work or be comfortable for you). 

Often I will read articles on things I have already worked on myself and find lots of information I already knew. I remember how I learned the hard way and how the information contained in that resource could have saved me some frustration and take joy in the fact that knowing it WILL save someone else a similar frustration. Sometimes I even think I could have made that, but then realize the reason I didn't and somebody else did was because I was just too lazy.[8D]

I like the way this forum works. The flare-ups keep me awake after reading 10 articles that are mostly technical. It is a lot like the real world, you cannot please everyone.

My problem is I never seem to shut-up[)]


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## wdcav1952 (Jul 14, 2007)

> _Originally posted by gerryr_
> <br />The argument about whether there is or is not a division is not going to be resolved.  Since it can't be resolved, my question to those who say there is a clique or division or whatever you want to call it, is what it is that you want or expect of those on the other side of this perceived divide?



Excellent question, Gerry.  Unfortunately, I cannot even attempt to answer it since I don't feel that there is a divide.  Check out the great post by EeyorIs21.  I don't think Robert as a new member worries about a divide, clique or whatever.  He is more interesting in obtaining information about pen-turning.

So, let me re-toss out Gerry's question:  Just what is expected from those on the other side of the perceived divide?


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## wudnhed (Jul 14, 2007)

IMHO - felt no clickishness - felt like a newbie because I WAS new and KNEW so little about turning - respect all opinions - and tried, failed but kept trying all or most techniques written or suggested on this site.  Great group and the info is limitless.  If a newbie asks questions that has been asked before and your tired of it, skip it, no biggie, someone else will take the time to answer.  That's why I love this site, someone will step up to the plate.  Thanks everyone for being you and sharing your knowledge!


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## jaywood1207 (Jul 14, 2007)

Hmmmmm.  Clicks no.  Groups yes.  First group is those that have access to the site throughout the whole day which includes some of the "senior" members as well as some "newer" members.  The other group which I am part of is the group that checks into the site when they can and this also includes "senior" members and "junior" members.  I don't see a problem.[]  
As for the "newbie" questions.  Again I don't see a problem.  Yes the search function exists but as somebody else mentioned (I'm not going to go back and look up who) sometimes it is a great way to get to know the new people and sometimes little new tricks come out in those threads.  If you're not interested then no peeking.[]


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