# Wanted: Metallurgist



## ed4copies (Jul 2, 2011)

Anybody here know how to analyze a piece of metal, say a pen component?

Or do you know of a lab or university that would do such things?

My curiosity has been piqued--I'd like to get a scientific answer to several questions.

Thanks


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## terryf (Jul 2, 2011)

I sent you a PM Ed!


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## ed4copies (Jul 2, 2011)

Thank you, Terry!!  All knowledge is gratefully accepted!!

Still  looking for a testing lab, folks!!


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## baileyr4 (Jul 2, 2011)

Many years ago I worked in a steel mill and we used a Spectrometer to burn each piece to check the steel type.  If you could find a small mill that might do the same thing, they might be able to get a reading on a pen component.  Guarenteed the piece will be toast though when they are done burning it with the machine.  The results from the burn are fed into a computer which will give a fairly complete readout of the components of the metal.


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## OKLAHOMAN (Jul 2, 2011)

Hell I'll galdly split the cost, this has my curiosity piqued also and would be smething we all need to know the answers  to.


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## ed4copies (Jul 2, 2011)

I thoroughly expect to "toast" a few kits. 

I hope to walk away better informed.


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## Smitty37 (Jul 2, 2011)

*destructive tests*

Most of the tests to determine composition and/or thickness will be destructive...hardness tests are probably destructive too.

That being said I'm interested too and offer my help with getting this done.

Don't send "herbie" though---I'll take PSIs word that they're Rhodium


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## glycerine (Jul 2, 2011)

Ha ha, Ed, you are too much!  It is a good idea though.  I'd be willing to donate a few kits or something to help with this venture as well...


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## steeler fan1 (Jul 2, 2011)

Hey Ed,

Might try contacting someone at the U of W, Madison. One of the science departments might help?

Carl


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## brookswife803 (Jul 2, 2011)

Smittys right. Most tests are very destructive. In my past welding life we did many many tests on our test welds. Dye pen testing could show you weak spots, some x rays could show internal composition but a tensil test will tell you the strength of the metal and may be your best classifyer.


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## ed4copies (Jul 2, 2011)

glycerine said:


> Ha ha, Ed, you are too much!  It is a good idea though.  I'd be willing to donate a few kits or something to help with this venture as well...



In the copier industry it is common practice for the sales department to make claims that the service personnel are told to refute.

So, as a dealer-owner, I was quite surprised when I attended service school and learned of the discrepancies.  Made me doubt all statements until I could test it myself or have a "disinterested third party" test it.  (There are such entities in the copier industry now and I subscribe to their services, for a fee).  Amazing how our industry has "cleaned up".

After the research I have done today, there are holes large enough to drive a convoy through.

I am now motivated to find the truth.  Someone PM'd me about suing for all the kits we buy, if they were misrepresented---that is NOT my intention.  I am only interested in knowing what I am selling, so I make truthful statements to MY customers.

In this case, that would be all of YOU who buy kits from me.  I am not contented by "parroting back" the "stuff" we get from the "non-manufacturing-manufacturer".

FWIW,
Ed


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## KenV (Jul 2, 2011)

Ed -- there are two general types of testing designs.  

Qualitative Testing  -- what is there.   You likely did some of this general heading when you took Chemistry in Highschool.   Dipping a loop in solution and putting it into a flame could indicate presence of a specific ion in the solution.

Quantative Testing -- the actual quantity of what the components are in the sample.   this can be expressed in a number of ways.  As the precision increases, or the smaller trace amounts are being sought, the price tends to go up and the sampling methods become much more critical.  

The method of extracting the sample, and the processes are commonly controlled by labratory standards and the labratories are specialized for the kinds of tests they perform.   There are standard setting and publishing organizations who do such work -- such as the American Society of Testing Materials (ASTM), American Welding Society,  and others.

Do you want to just test platings?   How many different kinds?   What answers are you seeking and to what precision?   Is there a standard already written for the test you are seekng?  

Need to get some specifics before going lab shopping  --   Otherwise you will not likely get where you want to go  (You do not go to the bakery to get a special steak for the grill).


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## ed4copies (Jul 2, 2011)

Thanks Ken!!

I expected to be in "uncharted waters" for me.  I am hoping to have someone with greater knowledge guide me through.  Wanna volunteer??  PM me, I am not trying to put anyone "on the spot"!!


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## Smitty37 (Jul 2, 2011)

*Precious Metals*

I suspect that our greatest interest in composition would be in the precious metals - Platinum - Rhodium - Gold 24kt - Upgrade Gold - and possibly Silver.  The other metals are such that "cheating" on their composition wouldn't be likely because they are not that expensive.

The other item I think would be of most interest would be plating thickness.  I don't know what others claim but I do know what my supplier claims.

Titanium is a special case...Titanium is a metal but in most of the plating we see it is in the form of Titanium Nitride which is not a metal it is a ceramic and might need some different form of testing.

We'd also need to do some investigating on the underlying material.  A barrier coat is usually used between, for instance, gold and copper to prevent the copper bleeding into the gold.  Typically it is Nickel but it doesn't have to be.

My supplier tells me they use Chrome under the Titanium Nitride... 

We need to get some education so we know what to be looking for and what the answers we would get from testing mean.


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## ed4copies (Jul 2, 2011)

Thanks to all who have PM'd me, as well as those who comment here.  

We will move forward with this and I continue to look for guidance from any who may like to input--PM me.

Ed


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## ohiococonut (Jul 2, 2011)

If you are just interested in the composition of the metal there are (NDT) Non Destructive Test that can be performed that shouldn't run too much money. It's just matter of finding the test lab and explaining what exactly it is you want done. The number of test that they can perform is mind boggling.

You do know you could be opening up Pandoras box :wink:


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## workinforwood (Jul 3, 2011)

I do not know what pen parts are made out of. What I do know is that 85% of all steel used in the united states is carbon steel. The most common of that is mild carbon steel, which is ideal for industrial manufacturing such as mass turnings on Swiss screw machines <an ideal way to mass produce pen parts btw>. Mild steel can contain a bit of brass or nickle, but not often as that would raise the price. Mild steel is the cheapest steel and easiest to machine.  When you spin down a typical pen component part, such as the nib connector of a cigar pen, it sure looks and acts like a mild steel to me.  If we manufacture mostly with mild steel, and it is the most economical solution to mass produced machined parts, most likely China would be doing the same thing and their percent of use is likely higher than ours too. They do buy more steel than us, and they buy a lot of steel from us, so stands to reason I would think.

read more....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_steel


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## workinforwood (Jul 3, 2011)

Oh...I forgot to add. Set a cheap ole slim kit in some water for a while.  Add a touch of salt to speed up the process if you like. The slim kit will rust. Even though it is plated, it will still rust, starting at the inside where it has less plating, sharp corners and burrs perhaps. You can speed things up even more if you scratch at the plating a bit. It will rust, I know this for a fact, I've seen it, a component part on the concrete near the overhead door that fell there one day and sat for quite a while, getting moisture to it from the concrete and minor amounts of rain that can get under the door on to the floor a bit.

Nickel does not rust.  Brass does not rust.  Add steel and nickel and brass together, it will get some rust but not much.  For many years coins where plated with nickel, that's one strong plating and does not rust. You don't find too many old coins that are rusty unless something serious happened to the coin to get through the thick plating.


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## bitshird (Jul 3, 2011)

Jeff, just check the parts with a Magnet, My bet is a lot of the metal parts are a brass alloy, for ease of stamping,I think any Lathe turning on the parts is a second operation, but still about the only parts of the pens I checked, a Sierra, one of Ed's Diplomat, a slimline,(copper) and chrome, a baron that had been 24 kt, an Emperor and a Zen, other than the clips there was only one pen that had any magnetic attraction to any of the body parts , the Zen, like !@#$%^e DUH, the nib on the Baron and the Emperor also had a bit of steel, as well, but that was to be expected, I think Ed is looking more into the Plating,, both on how many Mils thickness and the purity of the metals in question. With Gold around 1450.00 and silver around 35.00 and Rhodium over 2,000.00, with platinum close to 1800.00 an ounce you can bet you sweet hind end the thickness at least have been cut back a bit, but I'm not sure if any of the companies are going to risk stating false quality/purity of their plating's, even though the standards regarding Precious Metal Plating are kind of lax.


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## Manny (Jul 3, 2011)

Ed,

I sent you a pm on this question

Manny


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## workinforwood (Jul 3, 2011)

Interesting Ken. I didn't try that. I wonder what lets them rust. I know they don't rust in a normal environment, but they do rust in abnormal environment as I've seen it first hand with a woodnwhimsy slim kit.


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## ed4copies (Jul 3, 2011)

Aside from my normal skepticism, the recent "conversation" led me to do research on the price of rhodium.  I found that it was UNDER $1000, in 2005.

By 2008, it was in excess of $9000.

Indeed, today it is back down to the $1000 neighborhood.

I find it incredulous that our suppliers "ate" a 900% increase in the cost of ANY raw material, that they are using--so my hypothesis has to be, "this element is not being used".   Now, a scientific test could find I am incorrect---I hope.  That would make the providers of "rhodium plated kits" (some of which I sell) into heros.

Wouldn't that be nice????


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## OKLAHOMAN (Jul 3, 2011)

Here is a chart showing the 5 year prices with a high of 10,010.00 per ounce.



The avrage thickness accourding to jewerly standards​ 
Thickeness of the deposit should be minimized. Electroplated rhodium deposits tend to develop a highly fractured, very dense crystal structure. This high fracture crystal structure contributes directly to the wear hardness and durability of the rhodium surface. However, as the thickness of the deposit increases the possibility of the electrodeposit fracturing and delaminating from the substrate increases. Standard good manufacturing practice for rhodium plating requires that the rhodium bath be kept absolutely free of impurities and continuously monitored for the correct amount of organic stress reduction compounds. When properly maintained, a rhodium electrodeposit of up to 100 micro inches (2.5 micros, 0.000100 inches) is regularly attained.
A typical rhodium thickness would be 20 -30 micro inches


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## workinforwood (Jul 3, 2011)

I did not know that Roy. Pretty neat info. Now lets all buy some Rhodium, prices are low! let me buy first, then all you guys buy which will drive the price up for me to sell. I see some amazing spikes on that chart.

I was taking a peak at some Rhodium and platinum online and it looks like if platings and thicknesses is a question, then any decent jeweler has the equipment to tell you what the plating is and how thick it is.


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## terryf (Jul 3, 2011)

Jeff

Not always true in that the average jeweller wont be able to tell between 5 and 10 microns.

The better ones will be able to tell you that they believe its Rhodium or platinum or whatever but it will have to be sent to a lab for a definitive test.

It also depends on where they do the test - platings are thicker on corners and edges than on flats. Telling you its 32 microns doesnt mean anything (like the economy rate of a motor vehicle) - telling you that the average plating thickenss is 10.7 microns means a whole lot more.

Once I get the kits to the lab we will be able to clear this up once and for all 



workinforwood said:


> I did not know that Roy. Pretty neat info. Now lets all buy some Rhodium, prices are low! let me buy first, then all you guys buy which will drive the price up for me to sell. I see some amazing spikes on that chart.
> 
> I was taking a peak at some Rhodium and platinum online and it looks like if platings and thicknesses is a question, then any decent jeweler has the equipment to tell you what the plating is and how thick it is.


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## workinforwood (Jul 3, 2011)

Staring at that chart got me thinking. What happened for the colossal  price drop. At first I thought 911 terrorist attack, but no. Looks to me  like the election of a new president may be the answer, along with the  collapse of the housing market. It's right in that lull period between  old and new president and if my memory is right, that's pretty much when  the bank housing crisis broke the headlines too. So maybe it reads,  save your money to buy Rhodium and wait until a new president is  elected, which certainly could mean uncertainty in the market place  since nobody knows what a new leader will do, and that's the time to buy  buy buy?

Also, according to the chart, the average price is $3967 and it did jump to $10000 but only for 2 months and then it dropped to a price well below average and has stayed there. Possibly as a manufacturer, they buy in great bulk, so they had more than a couple months supply on hand..perhaps many months worth, buying rhodium on speculations, and since only a few months happened, they never payed that, so it didn't affect anything and now they are probably buying a whole boat load at current prices, which would mean that we are the ones getting screwed in the end because the cost went down more dramatically and for a longer period of time than it went up but prices did not go down for us to buy kits. So they look like hero's but are really bandits in disquise?


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## bitshird (Jul 3, 2011)

It's also possible they are using one of several other Platinates, possibly Paladium, it's still around 750.00 and could be alloyed, with either Platinum or Rhodium. But given that in real life Platinum has a gray/brown tinge, and Paladium shows a subtle yellowish hue, while Rhodium is beautifully bright silver with a smidgen of white, it's what gives white gold it's beautiful color, since white gold still shows a yellowish cast even with the presence of Nickel.
I've wondered several times about some of the plating claims, I've gotten some Platinum kits that just didn't look quite right, looked more like Chrome.

Jeff the Slimline I checked was a copper slimline from WoodnWhimsies, and the only thing that a magnet would hold to as far as nib, CB,or finial and clip was the clip. These were the  deluxe ones, but the transmissions are steel/albeit very thin, still magnetic.


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## OKLAHOMAN (Jul 3, 2011)

Terry, do you need me to send you a few pieces from lets say the Jr. Statesman, full sized gent. for testing. 





terryf said:


> Jeff
> 
> Not always true in that the average jeweller wont be able to tell between 5 and 10 microns.
> 
> ...


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## terryf (Jul 3, 2011)

Roy, I sent you a PM. 



OKLAHOMAN said:


> Terry, do you need me to send you a few pieces from lets say the Jr. Statesman, full sized gent. for testing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## terryf (Jul 3, 2011)

I have just tested a Jr Statesman 22K/Rhodium Rb kit that was lying on the desk.

The Jr Statesman Clip is defintely magnetic.

I then hauled out a Rhodium Jr Gent FP. The clip, top and bottom caps are magnetic.

I also tested a Majestic and an Imperial and no magnetism was present.

I was, however, using a magnet a tad more powerful than your average fridge model!


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## Smitty37 (Jul 3, 2011)

*Rust vs corrosion*



workinforwood said:


> Interesting Ken. I didn't try that. I wonder what lets them rust. I know they don't rust in a normal environment, but they do rust in abnormal environment as I've seen it first hand with a woodnwhimsy slim kit.


 
A lot of metals will corrode in salt water that won't "rust" in air.  I believe it is a little different process than normal oxidation because there are other elements present.  

There is a beach here in Delaware where silver coins get washed up every time a nor'easter blows through - if you don't know what you're looking for you'd never recognize them as coins or silver.  They use electrolisis to clean them off.

Almost all, if not all platings are coated with a clear epoxy to keep metals like copper and silver from corroding before you can even get them turned.

Given that there seems to be no real reason for a vendor to deceive us with regard to what the base metal is...I'm prone to take their word for it. 

I am told that plating thickness runs around 2 to 10 microns...perhaps more on the high priced components.  

Gold as near as I can learn is never plated directly on copper there is always a barrier layer, usually  nickel.

My supplier tells me they plate Gold TN and Black TN on Chrome.  I know for sure that is is a silvery surface not a brassy one.

I also know for sure that Dayacom 24Kt gold is plated on a bright silvery colored surface.


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## OKLAHOMAN (Jul 3, 2011)

Jeff I noticed that also, it hit it's high in April and in July drooped like a rock. It had a steady clime from July of 06 to its high in April of 08 and dropped from July to Nov 08 to it's 5 year low of $760. As my understanding goes in the research I have don it takes 1/4 gram to make a gallon solution that would be tarnish proof as there are approx. 28 grams to an ounce thats $142.00 a gram divide by 4=$35 and a gallon solution would plate how many? Maybe a few hundred? And I sure they buy their solutions and us vats that hold many gallons bringing cost down. Fine jewerly is plated using solutions from 1/2 gram to 1 gram and I just don't think out plating is using that much so the end cost is just pennies per unit. I have a Jewerly store that is very high end in town that has done a lot of work for me, I'll ask him on tuesday how much is he paying for the Rhoudium solution he replates rings with and how many can he plate with each quart....


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## Smitty37 (Jul 3, 2011)

*nickel*



terryf said:


> I have just tested a Jr Statesman 22K/Rhodium Rb kit that was lying on the desk.
> 
> The Jr Statesman Clip is defintely magnetic.
> 
> ...


 
I believe nickel is magnetic at room temperature if you use a strong enough magnet as are cobolt (sometimes added to "upgrade gold), gadolinium and of course iron. So some magnetic reaction should be the norm on 24kt gold plated parts. It might take a powerful magnet though.


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## ed4copies (Jul 3, 2011)

OKLAHOMAN said:


> Jeff I noticed that also, it hit it's high in April and in July drooped like a rock. It had a steady clime from July of 06 to its high in April of 08 and dropped from July to Nov 08 to it's 5 year low of $760. As my understanding goes in the research I have don it takes 1/4 gram to make a gallon solution that would be tarnish proof as there are approx. 28 grams to an ounce thats $142.00 a gram divide by 4=$35 and a gallon solution would plate how many? Maybe a few hundred? And I sure they buy their solutions and us vats that hold many gallons bringing cost down. Fine jewerly is plated using solutions from 1/2 gram to 1 gram and I just don't think out plating is using that much so the end cost is just pennies per unit. I have a Jewerly store that is very high end in town that has done a lot of work for me, I'll ask him on tuesday how much is he paying for the Rhoudium solution he replates rings with and how many can he plate with each quart....




Can you do similar calculations on TiGold?  We are told that cost has "skyrocketed" to raise our prices to nearly double what they were five years ago---

The above information does imply that plating is a nominal, nearly non-existent cost---is this also the case with TiGold?


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## terryf (Jul 3, 2011)

Nickel is magnetic at room temperature as you suggest but nickel used in electroplating is usually nickel sulphate or nickel chloride and boric acid.

This would generally not be magnetic at room temperature or certainly not noticably magnetic. The magnetic field I'm feeling is almost certainly from steel and is more than likely the base metal.

If it was a nickel plate, it wouldnt be more than 20 microns which would not allow the clip to be picked up off the table without touching it. When I bought the magnet within 1-2 inches of the clip it jumped to the magnet.

The top and bottom caps of the jr gent actually moved across the table towards the magnet.




Smitty37 said:


> terryf said:
> 
> 
> > I have just tested a Jr Statesman 22K/Rhodium Rb kit that was lying on the desk.
> ...


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## BRobbins629 (Jul 3, 2011)

I just did some rough calculations and a little internet research.
...The surface area of a Sierra nib is approximately 2.5 square cm.
...Gold plating thicknesses range from .175 micron for flash coatings to 2.5 micron for heavy coatings and everywhere in between.
... For a .175 micron thickness of pure gold at $1500 per ounce, the cost of the metal would be $0.045
... For a 2.5 micron thickness of pure gold at $1500 per ounce, the cost of the metal would be $0.63.  Lesser carat golds would be less as would thinner platings.


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## terryf (Jul 3, 2011)

The rhodium plating solution sold by OttoFrei contains 2grams per quart. This is consistent with most other manufaturers including Cohler.

Heres a link
http://www.ottofrei.com/store/product.php?productid=1558 



OKLAHOMAN said:


> Jeff I noticed that also, it hit it's high in April and in July drooped like a rock. It had a steady clime from July of 06 to its high in April of 08 and dropped from July to Nov 08 to it's 5 year low of $760. As my understanding goes in the research I have don it takes 1/4 gram to make a gallon solution that would be tarnish proof as there are approx. 28 grams to an ounce thats $142.00 a gram divide by 4=$35 and a gallon solution would plate how many? Maybe a few hundred? And I sure they buy their solutions and us vats that hold many gallons bringing cost down. Fine jewerly is plated using solutions from 1/2 gram to 1 gram and I just don't think out plating is using that much so the end cost is just pennies per unit. I have a Jewerly store that is very high end in town that has done a lot of work for me, I'll ask him on tuesday how much is he paying for the Rhoudium solution he replates rings with and how many can he plate with each quart....


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## OKLAHOMAN (Jul 3, 2011)

Terry here is as link for the same company with 1/2 gram solutions.http://www.ottofrei.com/store/home.php?cat=517


terryf said:


> The rhodium plating solution sold by OttoFrei contains 2grams per quart. This is consistent with most other manufaturers including Cohler.
> 
> Heres a link
> http://www.ottofrei.com/store/product.php?productid=1558
> ...


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## terryf (Jul 3, 2011)

Yip 1/2 gram per 8oz

2grams per 32oz (quart) is the norm which is the same ratio as above in a smaller bottle.



OKLAHOMAN said:


> Terry here is as link for the same company with 1/2 gram solutions.http://www.ottofrei.com/store/home.php?cat=517
> 
> 
> terryf said:
> ...


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## Smitty37 (Jul 3, 2011)

*Not Electro plating*



OKLAHOMAN said:


> Terry here is as link for the same company with 1/2 ounce solutions.http://www.ottofrei.com/store/home.php?cat=517
> 
> 
> terryf said:
> ...


 
I am not sure - would those solutions would be the same for PVD plating as for soulution plating?


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## terryf (Jul 3, 2011)

No, PVD (physical vapour deposition) uses a vacuum into which gases are pumped. The type of gas depends on the plating required. It gives a very even plating as opposed to EP.

Electroplating is a liquid process involving solutions.



Smitty37 said:


> OKLAHOMAN said:
> 
> 
> > Terry here is as link for the same company with 1/2 ounce solutions.http://www.ottofrei.com/store/home.php?cat=517
> ...


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## Smitty37 (Jul 3, 2011)

*MY Supplier*

My Supplier once told me that they electro plate only the enamels...the rest of their platings I am pretty sure he said were PVD ... I am checking with him on that to make sure.  I have a feeling that the PVD method might use less of the precious metal .... I'm also pretty sure that it is cheaper if doing things on a large scale and easier to get the entire piece plated.  But that is just from superficial reading on the subject and not really discussing it with an expert.


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## terryf (Jul 3, 2011)

It would certainly make more sense to use the PVD method as it is a better finish and will certainly be cheaper.

Would be quite quite costly to set up though.

This would make sense as you cant electroplate TiN - it would have to be PVD. If they use it for one they most likely use it for all.

Thanks for that Smitty.



Smitty37 said:


> My Supplier once told me that they electro plate only the enamels...the rest of their platings I am pretty sure he said were PVD ... I am checking with him on that to make sure. I have a feeling that the PVD method might use less of the precious metal .... I'm also pretty sure that it is cheaper if doing things on a large scale and easier to get the entire piece plated. But that is just from superficial reading on the subject and not really discussing it with an expert.


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## Smitty37 (Jul 3, 2011)

*HMMM*



terryf said:


> It would certainly make more sense to use the PVD method as it is a better finish and will certainly be cheaper.
> 
> Would be quite quite costly to set up though.
> 
> ...


 
They now tell me that they do use a vacuum method but PVD is specifically used only for Titanium.  There are a number of vacuum methods other than PVD so I'm not sure but at any rate it is not electro plating.  I think most jewelers probably electro plate because that is what I see offered in small kits for individula item plating.

They do use manganese steel for some (I think most) of their clips but copper for the tips and bands.


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## ragz (Jul 3, 2011)

This may be a little naive of me but...
Why not ask the manufacturer of the kits you are interested in? I would imagine that Dayacom is the manufacturer of the vast majority of the kits. I would also think that they would be willing to give you some basic info that would answer your questions just not everything since they may have some proprietary methods they don't want leaked.


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## OKLAHOMAN (Jul 3, 2011)

If what Ed Brown thinks that the Chinese are telling us what we want to hear anything we learn from Dayacom would be suspect...


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## glycerine (Jul 3, 2011)

trust no-one...


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## Hubert H (Jul 3, 2011)

When you feel good about when, where and how to test I would be glad to share some kits.  The question for me is about kits that are almost the same coming from different manufactures.  Glad you are looking into it.  HWH


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## johncrane (Jul 4, 2011)

I'm interested in this too Ed! i have turned down ground down a fair few kits, most of the parts are brass and copper with a plating finish, i have also wipe off 24k gold plating with acetone, other kits marked Tit gold i tried steel wool then Acetone and the plating held up really good, i think the cheap kits we buy is what we get, with high dollar kits i have not been silly enough to test,the test iv done have been for my own peace of mind.


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## terryf (Jul 11, 2011)

A quick update...

I popped into the lab this afternoon and dropped off a few kits. 

The process has begun........watch this space


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## Smitty37 (Jul 11, 2011)

*Thin Film*

Thin Film is one of two methods (at least) of applying TN finish, The other is called "coating" and it is thicker.  Thicker is not necessarily better for wear resistance due to the way that Titanium Nitride adheres to the base metal.
They do not call Titanium Nitride "plating" because it is not metal it is a ceramic.
My supplier says they do thin film and the sub is copper plated with chrome before the TN is applied.  Having seen a couple that were improperly finished, I tend to believe them.


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## terryf (Jul 15, 2011)

Initial feedback is the that the plating has less than 1% Rhodium, about 35% nickel, 31% zinc and 22% copper. Measurement of encertainty on the rhodium is 0.05%.

The actual rhodium readings measured between 0.25 - 0.41% - its given as <1% so that a margin of error is built into the return as this was the metal in question. Obviously, the higher the percentage content, the smaller the measurement of uncertainty becomes.

The variance between the readings (0.25 to 0.41) comes from 5 different kits which validates the results.

The base material is made of zinc (4%), nickel (31%) and copper (58%) along with a few other traces.

Between these two layers is a substantial nickel layer, as suspected.

Ed made a very good suggestion - to compare a rhodium Jr Gent kit against the  results of the higher end kits we have analysed. I only have one rhodium jr  Gent so the results may be a little skewed but it will give us an idea!

More to follow.....


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## ed4copies (Jul 15, 2011)

Very interesting beginning Terry!!

_Initial feedback is the that the plating has less than 1% Rhodium, about  35% nickel, 31% zinc and 22% copper. Measurement of encertainty on the  rhodium is 0.05%._

When I add this up, I arrive at 88% (35+31+22)
What am I missing?
(Remember, I admitted knowing nothing about this process).


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## terryf (Jul 15, 2011)

ed4copies said:


> Very interesting beginning Terry!!
> 
> _Initial feedback is the that the plating has less than 1% Rhodium, about  35% nickel, 31% zinc and 22% copper. Measurement of encertainty on the  rhodium is 0.05%._
> 
> ...



Yip, bear in mind we were looking at rhodium content so I just took down the rhodium plus the other main component elements. If you'd like a complete list I'll get it from the lab sheet :biggrin:


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## wolftat (Jul 15, 2011)

ed4copies said:


> Aside from my normal skepticism, the recent "conversation" led me to do research on the price of rhodium. I found that it was UNDER $1000, in 2005.
> 
> By 2008, it was in excess of $9000.
> 
> ...


Maybe they were just using old stock when the prices went up and didn't feel it would be fair to raise the prices since it wasn't effecting them. Almost got that typed without cracking a grin too.:biggrin:


----------



## terryf (Jul 15, 2011)

wolftat said:


> Almost got that typed without cracking a grin too.:biggrin:



:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:


----------



## ed4copies (Jul 15, 2011)

Uh-huh!!!  That'll happen!!


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## OKLAHOMAN (Jul 15, 2011)

*The actual rhodium readings measured between 0.25 - 0.41% - its given as <1% so that a margin of error is built into the return as this was the metal in question. Obviously, the higher the percentage content, the smaller the measurement of uncertainty becomes.*

*The variance between the readings (0.25 to 0.41) comes from 5 different kits which validates the results.*

Terry, we now know there is SOME rhodium but as we've been led to understand the plating is in microns would the percentages be enough to be thick enough to be considered plated in rhodium?


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## ed4copies (Jul 15, 2011)

Or, could we assume that the rhodium, used on the points where the most wear will occur, will be worn fairly rapidly and we will be left with shiny nickle plating.  This method is widely used to make any plating look better.

When we did gold, we were warned the nickle could become apparent as the gold wore--of course you don't WEAR gold plating on Stained glass, like you would wear plating on the nib of an Imperial pen.

At least preliminarily, we know we can make an accurate statement:  "Mr. Customer, this is less than 1/200th rhodium, which the manufacturers represent as "rhodium plated".


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## OKLAHOMAN (Jul 15, 2011)

I'm not convinced one way or the other until some one with knowledge of platings chimes in, but most certainly we now know that rhodium is used but before we jump on anyone's band wagon about weather it will or not wear off lets see how many of us who have sold these over the years have had wear problems. Two years ago we had some pitting, but that seemed to be on a few cases and I've haven't heard any more complaints. I have not had a single one ever sent back for plating problems as to wearing off but have had a few Chrome and gold cigars come back with worn platings. That was my main reason to stop doing any cigars or any gold platings three years ago.


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## Smitty37 (Jul 15, 2011)

*Jewelry makers have fits about this*

Rhodium plating is common in jewely and the industry seems to have fits about it. I just spent an hour reading and trying to understand a little but it (hodium) can apparently be plated so thin that it wears off rings in weeks or at time even days. I have asked my supplier what percentage of rhodium is in the rhodium plating they use....be interesting to see what they say.  One of the problems cited in the stuff I just read is they they plate it just enough to make it shine using an electroless proces.


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## ed4copies (Jul 15, 2011)

Again this thread shows that everyone has to have their own comfort level.

For ME, telling someone something that is 1-200th true would not be MY choice.  But, to each his own.


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## terryf (Jul 15, 2011)

Well I can tell you this, its a substantial thickness and not likely to come off in a rush!! The exact thickness I will be able to tell you in due course.

Roy, let me give you an example;
Gold comes in varying carats as you well know. 18ct is 75% gold and 25% other metals which could be copper, zinc, palladium, silver etc depending on the required color. 9ct is 37.5% gold plus copper, zinc, silver etc so theoretically we shouldn't call it a gold ring but rather a silver ring as a normal yellow 9ct ring contains approximately 42.5% silver, 37.5% gold and 20% copper!!

Is this making any sense??

Another thing that we need to consider is that the actual plating mixture may be named rhodium plating mixture and therefore, when applied to an object, may be called rhodium plated - the fact that it has rhodium in it is a bonus and means that the claim is substantiated. 

One last thing, talk to any jeweller and they will tell you that rhodium plating on a white gold ring is quite common. They will also tell you that you will need to have it replated from time to time as it will wear off. 

I would consider making the statement, "Mr Customer, the metal components of this pen are plated with a Rhodium alloy."

If you say 1/200th, he might ask for a substantial discount :biggrin:


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## Russianwolf (Jul 15, 2011)

terryf said:


> 9ct is 37.5% gold plus copper, zinc, silver etc so theoretically we shouldn't call it a gold ring but rather a silver ring as a normal yellow 9ct ring contains approximately 42.5% silver, 37.5% gold and 20% copper!!


If memory serves, gold goes down to 10ct. any lower and you aren't supposed to call it gold anymore. Why 10ct and not 12ct has always baffled me since at least at 12ct you can say its mostly gold.


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## Smitty37 (Jul 15, 2011)

*Implications*



ed4copies said:


> Again this thread shows that everyone has to have their own comfort level.
> 
> For ME, telling someone something that is 1-200th true would not be MY choice. But, to each his own.


 
It kind of implies to me that the premium charged for rhodium plated components might be a tad excessive. It almost seems to me that silver over a nickel substrait would be ok...the silver might wear but with the nickel substrait it wouldn't show much and the product would be about as bright as Rhodium.


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## terryf (Jul 15, 2011)

Russianwolf said:


> terryf said:
> 
> 
> > 9ct is 37.5% gold plus copper, zinc, silver etc so theoretically we shouldn't call it a gold ring but rather a silver ring as a normal yellow 9ct ring contains approximately 42.5% silver, 37.5% gold and 20% copper!!
> ...



I dont know much about gold in the USA but in South Africa you get two main alloys, 9ct (375) and 18ct (750). In Europe its mostly 14ct (585) and 18ct (750).


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## sbell111 (Jul 15, 2011)

For me, this thread is purely academic.  I think we have mentioned a pen's plating twice, so far.  Both times, the customer couldn't care less.


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## Russianwolf (Jul 15, 2011)

terryf said:


> Russianwolf said:
> 
> 
> > terryf said:
> ...



10ct 14ct and 18ct are the most common in jewelry here.


----------



## glycerine (Jul 15, 2011)

ed4copies said:


> Again this thread shows that everyone has to have their own comfort level.
> 
> For ME, telling someone something that is 1-200th true would not be MY choice. But, to each his own.


 
Look at it this way.  I drink alot of tea... which is really nothing but water.  Instead of calling it tea leaf flavored water, they still call it tea!


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## terryf (Jul 15, 2011)

Smitty37 said:


> ed4copies said:
> 
> 
> > Again this thread shows that everyone has to have their own comfort level.
> ...



I'm not sure I agree Smitty. Thats one of the reasons they rhodium plate white gold, so that it looks really nice n shiny! Nickel has some serious cutaneous reactions in some people and might, therefore, not be permitted for sale in places like Europe where nickel content is governed.


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## IPD_Mr (Jul 15, 2011)

Lets just say there is no "mass conspiracy" in the pen industry which has been implied.  

So you are using a pinch of Rhodium for the shine, but you don't want to use too much so that it is durable.  If this is the idea behind Rhodium plating, I am curious where the issue lies?


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## Smitty37 (Jul 15, 2011)

*10kt*



Russianwolf said:


> terryf said:
> 
> 
> > 9ct is 37.5% gold plus copper, zinc, silver etc so theoretically we shouldn't call it a gold ring but rather a silver ring as a normal yellow 9ct ring contains approximately 42.5% silver, 37.5% gold and 20% copper!!
> ...


 
Jewelry is supposed to be marked as to the gold content.  My wedding band is 10kt and is marked as such on the inside of the band.  

What can be called "gold" would be established by each country.  What is called Sterling Silver also varies from country to country.


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## terryf (Jul 15, 2011)

Smitty37 said:


> Russianwolf said:
> 
> 
> > terryf said:
> ...



The internet has that sorted so to speak. You can buy any type of gold on the internet from anywhere in the world.

The fact thats its stamped, to me, implies that even 1ct gold would be acceptable as the content is stated. 1/24 of the item is gold, the rest is something else.

Gold plating is usually done with 24ct gold which is the reason it rubs off so easily. Silver plating is done with silver not a silver alloy. It therefore follows that rhodium plating is done with rhodium not a 1% rhodium alloy.

Whilst to some it may be academic, to others, who sell a $600 pen with a very durable rhodium plating, I can see the potential long term issues.

Its like selling a black car and claiming its red because it has 1% red paint in the mix


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## Smitty37 (Jul 15, 2011)

*True*



terryf said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > ed4copies said:
> ...


 
What reading I did kind of supports what you say.  Going on what I've read "White Gold" can't be made with nickel and sold as jewelry in most of Europe but it can in the USA.  

Rhodium plating as done on white gold is a cosmetic plating that is not intended to have great wear characteristics.  I've seen it described as simple process often done right in the store. 

My contention is - if there is so little of the expensive metal there, and the process is no different than other plating processes, what is the premium price for?  

It will be interesting to see what my supplier says.


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## Fibonacci (Jul 15, 2011)

Smitty37 said:


> My contention is - if there is so little of the expensive metal there, and the process is no different than other plating processes, what is the premium price for?
> 
> It will be interesting to see what my supplier says.


 
Because people will pay for it.


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## Russianwolf (Jul 15, 2011)

Okay, 10K or 10ct is the lowest that can be called gold in the US. 

http://reviews.ebay.com/Meaning-of-...18K-14K-10K-9K-9CT_W0QQugidZ10000000006395947

 8K and 9K are used elsewhere in the world, but apparently nothing lower is used as being called "gold"


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## OKLAHOMAN (Jul 15, 2011)

I'm still waiting for someone to come forward and tell us that they have had  ware issues with their rhodium plated pens other than the pitting we had 2 years ago.
and remember that we're talking about the plating not the entire metal content which would only be a micron or so thick so your 1/200th part rhodium analogy is not valid, if I'm reading Terry's results correctly.


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## ed4copies (Jul 15, 2011)

If I'm reading it correctly, you can't SEE the wear.

Rhodium comes off, you are left with shiny nickle.  NOT a bad look, just not rhodium.

It really doesn't matter---we can all SAY whatever we wish, now we just know more about what we are selling.


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## terryf (Jul 15, 2011)

OKLAHOMAN said:


> I'm still waiting for someone to come forward and tell us that they have had  ware issues with their rhodium plated pens other than the pitting we had 2 years ago.
> and remember that we're talking about the plating not the entire metal content which would only be a micron or so thick so your 1/200th part rhodium analogy is not valid, if I'm reading Terry's results correctly.



Well to put my head on a block so to speak as we need to measure it properly, Id guesstimate at least 3-5 microns perhaps a bit thicker. 

The 1/200th is incorrect in so much in that I said <1%. Analytical terms really. So in essence, one could say that 1% of the plating is rhodium which I think is what Ed was implying.

I dont think we should read too much into this yet - lets finish the tests first and then get out the ropes. Im sure Wolftat is still up for bringing along his tree :biggrin:


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## terryf (Jul 15, 2011)

ed4copies said:


> If I'm reading it correctly, you can't SEE the wear.
> 
> Rhodium comes off, you are left with shiny nickle.  NOT a bad look, just not rhodium.
> 
> It really doesn't matter---we can all SAY whatever we wish, now we just know more about what we are selling.



This is not true Ed. It is an alloy which contains the rhodium and therefore is spread throughout - its not a very thin covering of rhodium, its a very thin covering of alloy containing rhodium!!

Think of it as mixing 1% white paint into another color - the white doesnt come off as its part of the mixture.


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## ed4copies (Jul 15, 2011)

Thank you Terry---I did visualize it inaccurately.

So, what we are saying is if there is one part white and 199 parts red, we will call the paint "White alloy"?  Even though it is very red.

Would that be closer?


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## Smitty37 (Jul 15, 2011)

*Hmmmm*

Perhaps the Rhodium changes the atomic or molecular characteristics of the alloy sufficiently to warrant calling it "rhodium" or as in some cases "platinum.". I know that adding a very small amount of salt to the mixture changes the taste of food.


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## terryf (Jul 15, 2011)

ed4copies said:


> Thank you Terry---I did visualize it inaccurately.
> 
> So, what we are saying is if there is one part white and 199 parts red, we will call the paint "White alloy"?  Even though it is very red.
> 
> Would that be closer?



Precisely! Only in this case we call it white alloy because the white part is so precious and we want people to know it has white in it.


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## ed4copies (Jul 15, 2011)

Got it!!

Thank you!!


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## OKLAHOMAN (Jul 15, 2011)

So Terry are we saying that from now on I can tell customers that the plating is an rhodium alloy and not have some question my integrity?


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## terryf (Jul 15, 2011)

OKLAHOMAN said:


> So Terry are we saying that from now on I can tell customers that the plating is an rhodium alloy and not have some question my integrity?



Spot on!


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## OKLAHOMAN (Jul 15, 2011)

terryf said:


> OKLAHOMAN said:
> 
> 
> > So Terry are we saying that from now on I can tell customers that the plating is an rhodium alloy and not have some question my integrity?
> ...


 
Thank you, I think that clears up a lot of miss information here.


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## Smitty37 (Jul 15, 2011)

*How about this*

My supplier says their "Rhodium" (Actually they call it platinum) plating is 60% gold, 20% copper and 20% Palladium.  That looks to me more like a formula for 14kt white gold than anything else, although I would expect some silver in the mix as well.  

Palladium is a platinum group precious metal that right now is about half the price of gold so I suppose that is how they come to call it platinum. 

So their "rhodium" plating that they call "platinum" is in reality neither.  In their defense I will say that they did not hesitate to tell me the formula.

If true, it also means that all rhodium is not the same.


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## OKLAHOMAN (Jul 15, 2011)

Smitty37 said:


> My supplier says their "Rhodium"* (Actually they call it platinum) plating is 60% gold, 20% copper and 20% Palladium*. That looks to me more like a formula for 14kt white gold than anything else, although I would expect some silver in the mix as well.
> 
> Palladium is a platinum group precious metal that right now is about half the price of gold so I suppose that is how they come to call it platinum.
> 
> ...


 
LeRoy, I'm old and get confused easy, if your supplier calls their plating platinum what and where is the connection to Rhoudium other than rhodium is a form of platinum?


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## KenV (Jul 15, 2011)

terryf said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > Russianwolf said:
> ...




I am reminded of a story told about a town I used to live in.  During WW II there was a butcher in town that was selling rabbit burger -- after a lot of pressure he was cornered and admitted that he did mix a little horse meat with the rabbit --  when pressed further he acknowledged it was a 50%-50% mixture.   After still more pressure, he was asked how he figured the percentages.  His response was 1 rabbit to 1 horse.


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## Smitty37 (Jul 15, 2011)

*Me too.*

Well Roy, I think I am actually older than you are, so......

The only relationship is that there are a group of 6 elements (metals) that are called the platinum group. Both rhodium and palladium are members of the platinum group and both are precious metals in their own right.

Why my supplier calls his plating platinum rather than white gold is beyond me.  On the other hand if what he said is accurate, it has considerably more precious metal than the one analyzed.

He also says he used the same formula when I ordered Rhodium - I asked if his platinum was really rhodium and he said yes. 

btw...being a member of the platinum group does not make rhodium or palladium a form of platinum.  They are distinct elements themselves not isotopes.


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## OKLAHOMAN (Jul 15, 2011)

Thanks! ...................I think:tongue:



Smitty37 said:


> Well Roy, I think I am actually older than you are, so......*Not by much*:wink:
> 
> The only relationship is that there are a group of 6 elements (metals) that are called the platinum group. Both rhodium and palladium are members of the platinum group and both are precious metals in their own right.
> 
> ...


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## witz1976 (Jul 16, 2011)

well then...I just got an education


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## Penultimate (Jul 16, 2011)

Greetings
I used this metallurgy lab many years ago. http://www.msitesting.com/
If there is a heat treater in your area they should have a metallurgist and the equipment to do metals testing. A plater will have equipment to measure plating thickness but you need to know the plating material and the base metal. I need to get a calibration standard for our x-ray refraction machine to measure some plating thickness. Good luck.


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## terryf (Jul 16, 2011)

Smitty37 said:


> My supplier says their "Rhodium" (Actually they call it platinum) plating is 60% gold, 20% copper and 20% Palladium.  That looks to me more like a formula for 14kt white gold than anything else, although I would expect some silver in the mix as well.
> 
> Palladium is a platinum group precious metal that right now is about half the price of gold so I suppose that is how they come to call it platinum.
> 
> ...





Smitty37 said:


> Well Roy, I think I am actually older than you are, so......
> 
> The only relationship is that there are a group of 6 elements (metals) that are called the platinum group. Both rhodium and palladium are members of the platinum group and both are precious metals in their own right.
> 
> ...



Leroy

It sounds to me as if your supplier is trying to give you the answers he thinks you want to hear!!


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## Smitty37 (Jul 16, 2011)

I don't think so.  Not that I don't believe he wouldn't "improve the truth" but that he'd have no way of knowing what I want to hear.  

In the past I have asked him if what he called platinum was the same finish as rhodium and he said it was.  I ordered some kits to be produced with a Rhodium finish.  I also bought some kits from his inventory that have his platinum finish.  *My question would be, why on earth would he think I want to hear that the plating contains neither rhodium or platinum?*

I have asked him a lot of questions about plating - all of his answers so far have been reasonable for a producer of low priced kits.   Also, all of his answers can be verified by testing and he has no way of knowing I'm not doing that.


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## JerrySambrook (Jul 16, 2011)

Isn't there a legal standing in this country that in order to call something like our pens Rhodium-plated, the alloy has to be of a certain percentage?  As in the neighborhood of 90% minimum.
And yes, there are standard which are created, such as gold, that do not fall under these rules, because the industry has self-regulated itself by creating templates for naming the percentages.

Also, at the very least, ethically would it not be wrong to say that these kits are rhodium plated when the finish plating is way less than a majority of the substance?

It would be like saying a car is made in america because the air in the tires was pumped into them on this continent.


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## terryf (Jul 17, 2011)

Jerry

I think that was the purpose of these tests. So that a sales person can maintain his or her integrity and inform a prospective client of exactly what it is they are receiving for their hard earn dollars.

I know I'd be ****ed if I was told it was X plated and later found it was only 1% of X.

I must also mention that the plating on these things is quite tough. I put an end cap on the buff yesterday (fine paste) and it took 87 seconds of buffing to get through to the base material. I didnt do it with a soft hand either. (no my stopwatch wasn't calibrated to the big ben :tongue

Aside from the content, Im convinced that this plating will hold up for many years of daily use.

I'm going to try an oxidation test next week to see if I can get one to oxidise which shouldnt be possible but lets see 

Have a good Sunday ya'll!! :clown:



JerrySambrook said:


> Isn't there a legal standing in this country that in order to call something like our pens Rhodium-plated, the alloy has to be of a certain percentage?  As in the neighborhood of 90% minimum.
> And yes, there are standard which are created, such as gold, that do not fall under these rules, because the industry has self-regulated itself by creating templates for naming the percentages.
> 
> Also, at the very least, ethically would it not be wrong to say that these kits are rhodium plated when the finish plating is way less than a majority of the substance?
> ...


----------



## LarryDNJR (Jul 17, 2011)

KenV said:


> I am reminded of a story told about a town I used to live in. During WW II there was a butcher in town that was selling rabbit burger -- after a lot of pressure he was cornered and admitted that he did mix a little horse meat with the rabbit -- when pressed further he acknowledged it was a 50%-50% mixture. After still more pressure, he was asked how he figured the percentages. His response was 1 rabbit to 1 horse.


 

That is funny, sort of wrong but funny.


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## maxwell_smart007 (Jul 17, 2011)

Now I'm a bit confused by Terry's results.  

Electroplating involves dunking a charged item into a bath that contains solid metals....the metal is attracted to the charged item, and forms a thin layer...correct?

For items like chrome, you always dip in something like copper, and then nickle first as a base layer.  Does Rhodium take a few base layers, like copper and nickle as well?  Now everyone always says that the Rhodium plating is ultra-thin...wouldn't these results indicate that it's just a very quick dunk in the rhodium, to give an ultra-thin veneer to the base metals?  

I don't really see the big 'conspiracy' here, but perhaps I'm interpreting the process incorrectly...can someone enlighten me as to what I'm missing?

Andrew


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## terryf (Jul 17, 2011)

Maxwell

What we're all missing is the Rhodium!!

There just aint a whole lot of it being used in the so called rhodium plating. 



maxwell_smart007 said:


> Now I'm a bit confused by Terry's results.
> 
> Electroplating involves dunking a charged item into a bath that contains solid metals....the metal is attracted to the charged item, and forms a thin layer...correct?
> 
> ...


----------



## maxwell_smart007 (Jul 17, 2011)

I see - so the issue isn't that there's base metals as well, as that's part of the process...the issue is that the final dip is not giving much rhodium?  Is that the crux of the matter?


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## terryf (Jul 17, 2011)

maxwell_smart007 said:


> I see - so the issue isn't that there's base metals as well, as that's part of the process...the issue is that the final dip is not giving much rhodium?  Is that the crux of the matter?



I'm getting the idea you haven't read the entire thread Maxwell :tongue:

Yip, initial test results indicate that the plating contains less than 1% rhodium but is being marketed to us a a rhodium plating rather than a rhodium alloy plating.


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## OKLAHOMAN (Jul 17, 2011)

As of my next show all my sales pitches will not say Rhodium plated but the plating used is a rhodium alloy. Terry thanks for all your effort.


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## Smitty37 (Jul 17, 2011)

maxwell_smart007 said:


> I see - so the issue isn't that there's base metals as well, as that's part of the process...the issue is that the final dip is not giving much rhodium? Is that the crux of the matter?


 
You are also thinking of the local jeweler's method of plating...that isn't the way it's done by most, if not all, pen component manufacturers.  They generally use a vacuum process and vapor rather than a liquid bath.


----------



## maxwell_smart007 (Jul 17, 2011)

terryf said:


> maxwell_smart007 said:
> 
> 
> > I see - so the issue isn't that there's base metals as well, as that's part of the process...the issue is that the final dip is not giving much rhodium?  Is that the crux of the matter?
> ...



I read it, I just don't get it...isn't the plating percentage related to the amount of time that it gets dipped?  I.e., if you dip the item in copper for 10 minutes, then nickle for 10 minutes, then chrome for 10 minutes, then a 4 second dip in rhodium, you'll get a VERY thin coat of rhodium...so it's pure rhodium, but becomes 1 percent of the entire mix..but no one who gets chrome plating gets upset when the chromium is only the final coat, and not 100 percent chromium...

But I don't know if that's how it works or not with pens...


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## maxwell_smart007 (Jul 17, 2011)

Smitty37 said:


> maxwell_smart007 said:
> 
> 
> > I see - so the issue isn't that there's base metals as well, as that's part of the process...the issue is that the final dip is not giving much rhodium? Is that the crux of the matter?
> ...



Ah, that is different then!  Thanks Smitty, I think I understand the issue now.


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## glycerine (Jul 17, 2011)

I understand the "issue", but it's a make believe issue.  Why do I say that?  Because no one has ever told us what the definition of a rhodium plating is!  We are trying to "disprove" something that no one knows the definition to.  Can any one of you please give me the definition of rhodum plating?  Why are we as penmakers trying to define that instead of leaving it to the guys who are actually doing the plating?  Why would anyone change what they tell their customers based on a "lab test".  Did your supplier tell you that the last plating on your pen was 100% rhodium?  At what percentage would it be acceptable for you to call it a rhodium plating?  Is a cup of coffee 100% coffe beans?  Heck no, according to Merriam-Webster, the definition of coffee is "a beverage made by percolation, infusion, or decoction from the roasted and ground seeds of a coffee plant".  What?!?!?  I'll never trust that Diner again!!  They lied to me!!  This is just a bitter cup of brown water!!
I also found this information about rhodium:
Solid (pure) rhodium jewelry is very rare, because the metal has both high melting point and poor malleability (making such jewelry very hard to fabricate) rather than due to its high price.  Additionally, its high cost assures that most of its jewelry usage is in the form of tiny amounts of powder (commonly called rhodium sponge) dissolved into electroplating solutions.
No one has lied to us.  They said it was rhodium plated and Terry proved that there is in fact rhodium in the platings.  There you have it...


----------



## terryf (Jul 17, 2011)

maxwell_smart007 said:


> terryf said:
> 
> 
> > maxwell_smart007 said:
> ...



If its done layer by layer then its not a mix. Remembering of course that a mixture can generally be seperated physically whilst a compound (alloy) can only be seperated chemically.

I had a look at Dayacoms Limited Edition pens and they claim a 5 micron thickness of Rhodium plating (the only place this claim is made)


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## terryf (Jul 17, 2011)

glycerine said:


> I understand the "issue", but it's a make believe issue.  Why do I say that?  Because no one has ever told us what the definition of a rhodium plating is!  We are trying to "disprove" something that no one knows the definition to.  Can any one of you please give me the definition of rhodum plating?  Why are we as penmakers trying to define that instead of leaving it to the guys who are actually doing the plating?  Why would anyone change what they tell their customers based on a "lab test".  Did your supplier tell you that the last plating on your pen was 100% rhodium?  At what percentage would it be acceptable for you to call it a rhodium plating?  Is a cup of coffee 100% coffe beans?  Heck no, according to Merriam-Webster, the definition of coffee is "a beverage made by percolation, infusion, or decoction from the roasted and ground seeds of a coffee plant".  What?!?!?  I'll never trust that Diner again!!  They lied to me!!  This is just a bitter cup of brown water!!
> I also found this information about rhodium:
> Solid (pure) rhodium jewelry is very rare, because the metal has both high melting point and poor malleability (making such jewelry very hard to fabricate) rather than due to its high price.  Additionally, its high cost assures that most of its jewelry usage is in the form of tiny amounts of powder (commonly called rhodium sponge) dissolved into electroplating solutions.
> No one has lied to us.  They said it was rhodium plated and Terry proved that there is in fact rhodium in the platings.  There you have it...



We should be seeing anywhere from 45-85% Rh content depending on the process/method used.


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## Smitty37 (Jul 17, 2011)

*I don't quite agree*



glycerine said:


> I understand the "issue", but it's a make believe issue. Why do I say that? Because no one has ever told us what the definition of a rhodium plating is! We are trying to "disprove" something that no one knows the definition to. Can any one of you please give me the definition of rhodum plating? Why are we as penmakers trying to define that instead of leaving it to the guys who are actually doing the plating? Why would anyone change what they tell their customers based on a "lab test". Did your supplier tell you that the last plating on your pen was 100% rhodium? At what percentage would it be acceptable for you to call it a rhodium plating? Is a cup of coffee 100% coffe beans? Heck no, according to Merriam-Webster, the definition of coffee is "a beverage made by percolation, infusion, or decoction from the roasted and ground seeds of a coffee plant". What?!?!? I'll never trust that Diner again!! They lied to me!! This is just a bitter cup of brown water!!
> 
> On the other hand, would you call a gallon of water with a thimblefull of gasoline in it gas and try to run your car with it?  Good luck.
> 
> ...


 
There is a real issue I sell components to pen makers, I am the one who is telling them they are getting rhodium plating.  I like to know what I'm talking about and felt the manufacturer would be telling me the truth.   - I found, for instance, that the "platinum" plating that my supplier sells is in reality white gold containing palladium and no platinum at all.  It is very good white gold (the cheaper is made with nickel) but it is in no way, shape or manner platinum.

Of interest, but no consequence to us, there is also an issue in the jewelry industry regarding the use of rhodium plating applied so thin (usually to white gold diamond rings to make the diamond sparkle more) that it wears off almost before they can get the ring home.  That wouldn't be so bad except because it is going to be "plated anyway" they often cheapen the white gold and without the plating it has a yellowish tinge.  Those rings need to be replated often.


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## sbell111 (Jul 17, 2011)

glycerine said:


> I understand the "issue", but it's a make believe issue.  Why do I say that?  Because no one has ever told us what the definition of a rhodium plating is!  We are trying to "disprove" something that no one knows the definition to.  Can any one of you please give me the definition of rhodum plating?  Why are we as penmakers trying to define that instead of leaving it to the guys who are actually doing the plating?  Why would anyone change what they tell their customers based on a "lab test".  Did your supplier tell you that the last plating on your pen was 100% rhodium?  At what percentage would it be acceptable for you to call it a rhodium plating?  Is a cup of coffee 100% coffe beans?  Heck no, according to Merriam-Webster, the definition of coffee is "a beverage made by percolation, infusion, or decoction from the roasted and ground seeds of a coffee plant".  What?!?!?  I'll never trust that Diner again!!  They lied to me!!  This is just a bitter cup of brown water!!
> I also found this information about rhodium:
> Solid (pure) rhodium jewelry is very rare, because the metal has both high melting point and poor malleability (making such jewelry very hard to fabricate) rather than due to its high price.  Additionally, its high cost assures that most of its jewelry usage is in the form of tiny amounts of powder (commonly called rhodium sponge) dissolved into electroplating solutions.
> No one has lied to us.  They said it was rhodium plated and Terry proved that there is in fact rhodium in the platings.  There you have it...


Agreed.  This thread reminds me of last year's BOW conspiracy.


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## Mapster (Jul 17, 2011)

I believe it was Smitty who asked if anyone had any problems with rhodium components, and I am just throwing in what I have found. 

1. I have cut through the chrome and gunmetal of many different slimlines and it shows copper

2. I have sold a gunmetal slimline that with lots of wear from fingers, no cutting, shows silver underneath

3. I have received a black titanium band that had a non-plated part that was silver, I could then rub the rest on the black titanium off due to this area

4. I have a sierra elegant beauty that has worn black titanium as well as rhodium. The black titanium has worn into a silver, and the rhodium has worn into a darker, more black titanium looking silver

Hope that helps a little. This is interesting, and I am excited to see how it turns out


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## bitshird (Jul 17, 2011)

We used to electroplate jewelry repair jobs done on White Gold with Rhodium. The stuff we used was the now hazardous Cyanide based plating solutions, the deposition isn't as dependent on time, as it is on Voltage and Amperage, even in the 1970s Rhodium plating solution which contained 1 gram of Rhodium pert quart of solution was nearly 80.00 a quart. 24 kt. gold was around 20.00 a quart. using to high of voltage left ridges in the finish and to much amperage left bubbles. I'm not sure what the problems are with the newer acid based plating solutions,  other than they don't last as long, But you can't make Guyana Grape Kool Aide with them. Now Rhodium solution is or was 325.00 per QT with 2 grams per QT. and the anodes are around 75.00 keep in mind this is for small plating systems using less than a quart of bath.
Also you can bet that any of the 8,000.00 material was sold off long time ago, those guys play the metals market as much as any one, so even though they may have lost a little, they aren't going to loose a lot.


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## mredburn (Jul 17, 2011)

Consumer protection and truth in advertising is at the base of the problem. Is it what you say it is and are selling it as. Is it really what your paying for when you buy it.  Can there be liabilities to you  as a reseller if it isn't. Copper is used as a base plating in plating baths because its cheap and conducts electricity well. Nickel seals the copper and produces a white  shine and is hard wearing for the base of the other platings.  Rhodium is used to make a brighter white over white gold to help  diamonds pick up the white tint of the rhodium making them look whiter to the eye than they are. IT does'nt take a thick layer and its mostly in places that don't have much wear. Like the lower areas of the clusters on cheap diamond rings. Bath platings depending on the base solutions can have a thinner plating by reducing the dip time but sometimes hit a limit that immersing them longer does not build up more metal. They must be re cleaned and re dipped to build up the platings. Hence "triple dipped" the citrus based solutions of Dalmar don't have that problem and the longer you leave them in the heavier the plating is. Although no one is complaining or has complained  about the wear factor of the plating thickness. There is a distinct possibility that someone may complain about  false representation to the consumer.  I am reminded of the post in in the" Client from Hell" Forum, A client had to remove his "contains real bacon" claim because it contained less than 2% Bacon. He had to switch to "great Bacon taste" or "tastes like real bacon".  If their are no standards in place to hold the products plating levels to their may need to be in the future. How high a percentage or microns thickness is enough to legally call it "rhodium plated". and not "looks like rhodium plating" or "feels  like great Rhodium plating"' If we as a cross section of the pen community demand answers and acceptable levels of metal in the platings of the kits we buy they will have to comply on certain levels to keep our business.  Remember their first resposibility is profit, their second is customer satisfaction. If customer satisfaction effects their profits they will make the changes.


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## Smitty37 (Jul 17, 2011)

Mapster said:


> I believe it was Smitty who asked if anyone had any problems with rhodium components, and I am just throwing in what I have found.
> 
> 1. I have cut through the chrome and gunmetal of many different slimlines and it shows copper.... The base material for a lot of pen kits is copper.
> 
> ...


 
Maybe (particularily we vendors) we will all try to become a little better versed in the details of plating.


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## Smitty37 (Jul 17, 2011)

mredburn said:


> Consumer protection and truth in advertising is at the base of the problem. Is it what you say it is and are selling it as. Is it really what your paying for when you buy it. Can there be liabilities to you as a reseller if it isn't. Copper is used as a base plating in plating baths because its cheap and conducts electricity well. Nickel seals the copper and produces a white shine and is hard wearing for the base of the other platings. Rhodium is used to make a brighter white over white gold to help diamonds pick up the white tint of the rhodium making them look whiter to the eye than they are. IT does'nt take a thick layer and its mostly in places that don't have much wear. Like the lower areas of the clusters on cheap diamond rings. Bath platings depending on the base solutions can have a thinner plating by reducing the dip time but sometimes hit a limit that immersing them longer does not build up more metal. They must be re cleaned and re dipped to build up the platings. Hence "triple dipped" the citrus based solutions of Dalmar don't have that problem and the longer you leave them in the heavier the plating is. Although no one is complaining or has complained about the wear factor of the plating thickness. There is a distinct possibility that someone may complain about false representation to the consumer. I am reminded of the post in in the" Client from Hell" Forum, A client had to remove his "contains real bacon" claim because it contained less than 2% Bacon. He had to switch to "great Bacon taste" or "tastes like real bacon". If their are no standards in place to hold the products plating levels to their may need to be in the future. How high a percentage or microns thickness is enough to legally call it "rhodium plated". and not "looks like rhodium plating" or "feels like great Rhodium plating"' If we as a cross section of the pen community demand answers and acceptable levels of metal in the platings of the kits we buy they will have to comply on certain levels to keep our business. Remember their first resposibility is profit, their second is customer satisfaction. If customer satisfaction effects their profits they will make the changes.


Not in my mind it isn't.  The heart of the problem in my mind is personal integrity.  I do not want to mislead the buyer whether it's against the law or not.


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