# Reasonable expectations?



## ed4copies (Feb 10, 2014)

When you purchase a pen blank, at what stage should you decide you don't like it and expect a refund?


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## D.Oliver (Feb 10, 2014)

I would say before you have done any machining to it (drilling, cutting, etc.).  After that it's yours wether you like it or not.


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## Cmiles1985 (Feb 10, 2014)

^^^agreed


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## thewishman (Feb 10, 2014)

Before any change to the blank - no cutting or turning. Unless there are problems that arise in its internal structure that could not be noticed before turning - pinholes and the like.


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## PenTurnerfromMaine (Feb 10, 2014)

When you put your hands on it, period.  Can't see how someone can say,"Oh, I have this partway turned and now I don't like it, so you owe me a refund for this, now, unusable blank."


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## ed4copies (Feb 10, 2014)

The phone rang----now the choices are up----you can vote for as many as you like--so let me know what you think.

Remember, we sell pen blanks made by guys like you, so if we give a refund on a blank that is no longer able to be sold, it has to be charged back to the artist.  So, what is fair for everyone??


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## walshjp17 (Feb 10, 2014)

IMHO, if you buy it, it is yours. If you order by mistake, that is your mistake.  If the dealer allows returns, contact them to see if they are willing to make good your mistake.  Once you put tool to material, all bets are off.

On the other hand, if the dealer sends you something flawed or something you did not order, then by all means get a refund or replacement.


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## sschering (Feb 10, 2014)

If we are talking about just aesthetics and not physical defects I would say 30 days max. Even then buyer pays return shipping..
That is assuming you didn't drill or turn it and the blank can still be re sold.


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## maxwell_smart007 (Feb 10, 2014)

As long as the blank turns out to be a reasonable representation of what is pictured on the website selling it, then the pics on the website should be a good gauge of what's inside, and the decision about whether it's what you want should be made when you click the button. 

If it varies tremendously, (i.e. pine cone blank without pine cones) or otherwise faulty - as in not-at-all what was pictured, or is defective in some other way, then that's a different story.


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## D.Oliver (Feb 10, 2014)

Is this a new Bash contest?


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## longbeard (Feb 10, 2014)

I agree with the above replies. 
A pen blank (wood)  is like a box of chocolates, you dont know whats on the inside. May look good on the outside with swirl, eyes and the such, but the more you turn the more that figure could disappear. Acrylics are somewhat the same i think. I've had some to loose alot of its swirling colors the closer i get to final size. But once you tun it, its yours,JMO.


Harry


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## plano_harry (Feb 10, 2014)

Yep, if I have altered it, I eat it.  Turned a pink coral trustone recently.  Got down to size and it had a big white blob that made it unsellable in my opinion - wife said return it, I said no.


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## plano_harry (Feb 10, 2014)

...so she left me


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## southernclay (Feb 10, 2014)

Unless there is gross misrepresentation then no refund. If a blank is a hugely different color, sold as an exhibition grade and has no figure etc.

Or if a blank has a ton of air holes , bigguns etc

But ultimately blanks aren't too expensive, it have to be major for me to want a refund. Maybe let you know of an issue is one thing but wanting something back from that info not likely. I recently bought some blanks, they are great but one came in broken. Not great but not a big deal. Let the seller know as an fyi, glued it back together and clamped....hopefully it will work out, if not I can get at least one Sierra out of it so no biggie.

Now if it was a $50-$100 blank I might be a little more picky but haven't got there yet


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## tim self (Feb 10, 2014)

No defects, not turned or drilled a possible return/replacement of equal value after customer pays shipping.  If I've done anything to the blank, I own it.


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## WHSKYrvr1 (Feb 10, 2014)

No refund.  Just save for a PITH and give it as a bonus...


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## ttpenman (Feb 10, 2014)

I agree with most of the other replies.  Unless there is a manufacturing defect, no refund.  If someone has one unturned and they want to pay the return postage (which in most cases wouldn't be worth it) I'd say let them return it.

Jeff in northern Wisconsin


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## bobleibo (Feb 10, 2014)

Refund? Don't know....never asked to send one back. Maybe a credit toward something else the seller has? I would never ask for the cash back.


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## Dan Masshardt (Feb 10, 2014)

plano_harry said:


> ...so she left me



Harry,

   Just send me the pen and save your marriage!


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## Dan Masshardt (Feb 10, 2014)

If you don't like it, just don't order it again. 
If it arrives cracked or something, that's one thing. 

If it's untouched and the buyer doesn't like it in person, it should be the same return policy as a pen kit or anything else. 

If it's cut drilled or tuned no  return unless it's clearly defective in some way that's obvious to all parties.  

All that said, I think that you should make your policy clear and obvious on the site and maybe the confirmation email.


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## Glenn McCullough (Feb 10, 2014)

If you ordered it and it's what you ordered, it's yours. If the vendor is nice enough to take it back or swap with something else...bonus. But it shouldn't be expected.


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## Jim Burr (Feb 10, 2014)

To be fair...we all know the limits of internet pic's. But if is flat out not the same thing...mother-in-law lookin'...holy-cow-what-is-that...coyote ugly kinda thing...show me the money!!


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## Glenn McCullough (Feb 10, 2014)

see, sometimes good things DO happen to good people!! 



plano_harry said:


> ...so she left me


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## firewhatfire (Feb 10, 2014)

It's mine if I buy it.  If I don't like I will just not buy any of that blank in the future.


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## edstreet (Feb 10, 2014)

My vote is "d) refund? whats a refund?"


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## edman2 (Feb 10, 2014)

Refund if it has not been altered in any way.  Returned at the buyers expense.  Store credit given.  Each artist could decide if they allow refunds on their products and that can be stated on their page. 

Sounds like a real easy thing to run your own business! )


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## stonepecker (Feb 10, 2014)

If I placed an order for wood blanks......I trust the person to send me what they believe is fair.

BURN ME ONCE AND I WON'T PLACE ANOTHER ORDER WITH YOU.

When I order from a picture I can tell a lot if I like it or not. If I order a blank and it is less then $10........I order ONE to see if I like it. If I don't, it is mine and I don't expect any refund.
If the blanks is over $10.00..........I will call the vendor and we can discuss it. If I have done NOTHING to the blank, I would hope that I can trade it back for a different one of the same value.

NOW, If I order a custom made blank and it come with a fault....Then I expect the vendor to make it right with me. Get me what I ordered. When I order anything and it comes in I open the box and inspect everything ASAP. I see something wrong...I call the vendor. (So Far, ALL VENDORS have made things right as far as I am concerned.) I will send back a picture of what I see and talk to the vendor. Sometimes it is just my eye.......other times the vendor has said "Yes, I see that. What can we do?"


One 'special ordered' blank had a very small crack in the resin. The vendor told me a way to try and fix it........I will do so in the future. He also told me that if the blank 'catches' ....he will order another.

This is all about communication. Being "fair" is a two way street.

Time limit? I would thing 90 days would be more then fair for both sides.

AFTER ALL THIS.....YOU CUT IT......TURN IT....PUT IT TOGETHER......IT IS *YOURS.*
You want to return it for a refund.......return it as you received it.


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## Lenny (Feb 10, 2014)

I voted for number three but in all honesty could not imagine doing it myself. I believe it should be the buyers responsibility for shipping and at the rates today I think it makes it a moot point anyways.


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## jimofsanston (Feb 10, 2014)

Should have decided on it before purchasing it.


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## Sylvanite (Feb 10, 2014)

As a buyer, if the blank is what I ordered, is as represented, and not defective, then I have no entitlement to a refund.  If the vendor allows refunds for buyer's remorse, then I'd expect to pay at least the shipping and return it in new/unused condition.

As a blank maker, if you aren't completely satisfied with one of my blanks, I'll replace or refund the purchase (accept a chargeback), please just don't be capricious.

Regards,
Eric


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## Lenny (Feb 10, 2014)

jimofsanston said:


> Should have decided on it before purchasing it.



Well, let's just give an example ... 

Say you purchase a black with gold matrix trustone blank and when you get it there really isn't much for gold lines running through it. You want to return in for credit or exchange. 

Is that realistic? 

You are going to pay half the value of the blank in postage. The vendor isn't making out to great either. The only thing he gains, at a price, is keeping a customer happy.


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## Marc (Feb 10, 2014)

I would focus on two things, one is the blank being very different than the web site picture as an example.  Keep in mind that a wood blank that has been "spritzed" will be quite different than the blank that one receives out of the box.  A turner won't really know if it looks like the "spritzed" expectation until it is finished.  A similar expectation cannot be fulfilled on an acrylic until it is turned and finished.  Also, each blank purchased will usually be different than a picture of a single blank.

Second, physical defects can be difficult to determine until one has put a tool on the wood.  Some wood blanks I have turned have been so dry and fibrous that even the sharpest tool could not produce a smooth cut.  This kind of wood has just plain been dried for too long and should not have even been sold.  I don't think a similar thing happens to acrylics, but don't know for sure.

All that said, I have never returned a blank.  I almost always think it's mine to eat or enjoy once I have possession.


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## Ambidex (Feb 10, 2014)

plano_harry said:


> ...so she left me


 
Wouldn't have another blank that comes with a guarantee that'd work for me do you Harry??:biggrin:


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## mbroberg (Feb 10, 2014)

My "expectation" of a refund would be consistent with the vendors published return policy.  I believe a refund is appropriate if the blank has not been turned.  I would not "expect" a refund on any blank that I have in any way altered but if I were offered one, or if that was written into the vendor's return policy I would probably become a very loyal customer to that vendor.
I marked "I haven't turned it, don't like it - refund."


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## ed4copies (Feb 10, 2014)

Dan Masshardt said:


> If you don't like it, just don't order it again.
> If it arrives cracked or something, that's one thing.
> 
> If it's untouched and the buyer doesn't like it in person, it should be the same return policy as a pen kit or anything else.
> ...



That is where this is headed, Dan.  I want to be certain my "gut feeling" is fair.  THEN, like CSUSA and Berea, we will put a post card in the box stating what our policy is.   (At present it IS on the policies page, but I understand very few people---including me when I was buying a lot----read that, so I don't want to "fall back on" information that is published there.)


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## Dan Masshardt (Feb 10, 2014)

I don't know if your checkout software would allow for it, but you could have a statement that the buyer would have to check the box at checkout agreeing to the return policy.


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## ed4copies (Feb 10, 2014)

Dan Masshardt said:


> I don't know if your checkout software would allow for it, but you could have a statement that the buyer would have to check the box at checkout agreeing to the return policy.



They (the software company that wrote the website) already have that and have checked it as read.  

Do YOU ever read it, I sure don't!!!!


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## zig613 (Feb 10, 2014)

walshjp17 said:


> IMHO, if you buy it, it is yours. If you order by mistake, that is your mistake.  If the dealer allows returns, contact them to see if they are willing to make good your mistake.  Once you put tool to material, all bets are off.
> 
> On the other hand, if the dealer sends you something flawed or something you did not order, then by all means get a refund or replacement.


 
I agree with John's statement above... you ordered it... it is yours unless there is a defect in the blank.  Too many consumers think that all business must have the same liberal return policies as the Wal-Mart's of the world.  Unfortunately, this type of return policy isn't affordable or reasonable for many small businesses.

Wade


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## ed4copies (Feb 10, 2014)

To be clear, I am not worried about the "letter of the law".  

No one has any "right" to return merchandise.  It is the store who makes the policy and the customer has to live with it.  But, we want to do what is RIGHT, not REQUIRED.  If I am selling products out of my pocket, I am much more willing to give refunds than I am if I am making that decision for someone else (one of our artists, for example).  So, I want to be fair to everyone.  And, society (you all) dictate those mores.  I am actually just confirming that I am still "in touch with" the norms.


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## robutacion (Feb 10, 2014)

Well Ed, I buy and I sell stuff so, I'm on both sides of the fence, I selected the 3th option from the top, and that is to me, the most reasonable of them all however, I don't think that any one policy will please everyone...!

As you will be well aware, anyone with an eBay store has to provide a refund policy for each listing however, some folks think that, they can decided what they want to do/have done, if things don't go their way, regardless who's fault it is...!

Selling internationally can add a few extra problems to the mix, first in the time that takes the item to arrive and secondly is the time that the buyer take to make their decision.

I believe, the return shipping costs are the buyers responsibility, and I believe reasonable that the customer would be given 2 to 4 weeks to make the decision from item arrival time.  I don't believe that, an item should wait 6 months, 1 year or more, before the return is even considered, and I can tell you, that I have had that done to me as a seller.

The item should be in the same condition as sent by the vendor (exception do apply when items are damage in transport...!) and extended time at the buyers location can possibly allow the item to become deformed in some way.  Certain items are not made to be put away and under extreme conditions, such as, under heavier items, be exposed to extreme heat or cold, be thrown around and not looked after properly, those extreme conditions can very easily interfere with the blank integrity, particularly if the blanks is made with a mix of various materials, the most common being warping, cracking and "separation" so, I would expect to make a refund claim if I had a good reason for it, within 2 weeks max, 4 weeks...!

Coming back to international buyers, the normal return policy is that, the buyer pays for the return shipping, and when they realise that is going to cost them, sometimes more than what the item is worth (but not always), they don't agreed and demand that they get full refund for something they received matching in every way, what was advertised that they didn't care less in reading, and all of a certain, the threats start coming.

On eBay, the negative feedback is normally used as a tool to get what 
"they" want, off eBay the media such as forums, Facebook, Twitter and many others are used to tell everyone, how nasty/bad/unfair/ruthless, etc, you are to deal with, if people reading don't know you, they will take this person word over any other, and we all know the troubles that can sometimes, cause.

Store/Vendor return Policies to certain people, don't mean a thing, they have their own ideas to what they have the right of/to and if isn't suitable to them, they will dispute it, until the cows come home.  Deal with these people take a phenomenal amount of energy and patience, sometimes, not always, I refund the full amount and either pay for the items be returned or simply forget about it and let them have it, just to get them out of my face however, it can go the other way around and they get nothing if they are not entitled to and, I make sure their name is "blacklisted" so that they can never buy from me again.

As a buyer, and I buy almost everything online, through eBay or not, I do not hesitate to make a complain if I believe, I dion't get what I paid for or simply, the items is faulty or similar, I never had a claim for refund, replacement or credit declined, this may have to do with one of my life rules, which is stated on my IAP signature, that simple principle has taken me a long way however, we are all different and some people are just mongrels, by nature so, how can you fix "stupid"...???:biggrin:

Good luck,

Cheers
George


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## edstreet (Feb 10, 2014)

You know you could save the blank if you don't like it and include it in the next PITH you are in ......  just saying.


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## ashaw (Feb 10, 2014)

If you machined it no refund.  If I have not machined I would still keep it. Who knows what it looks like until it is machined.  That is why I only buy one or two of a new blank.  Also even though I many not like it my customer would most likely love it.

Alan


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## mark james (Feb 10, 2014)

Wow, a refund for a pen blank!  Unless it comes in pieces or is obviously cracked or seriously flawed I can't imagine asking for a refund.  Seriously, it a piece of wood/resin/acrylic... not a refrigerator.

A minor flaw is a challenge!  Shoot, my "splatter bucket" is 1/3 full (12" D x 12" H)...  Maybe I need some classes !  I can't imagine ever asking for a refund for blanks unless there are serious flaws or it was the wrong product...Even then, I would probably just deal with I got.  There are much more serious things to worry about than a piece of woods.

I'd also factor in past experiences with the vendor.  If past experiences were good - forget about it.  If it happens repeatedly - try someone else.  NO vendor will have perfect products, and FEW business owners can possibly attend to EVERYTHING in their business.

For what it is worth, I started buying most of my supplies from convenient local businesses I can drive to (Berea Hardwoods; Rockler; Woodcraft; Thompson Tools), but I have shifted the past 8 months to mostly IAP members/member's businesses - and have been very pleased.  It does help to have some patience as some members have other jobs and do their IAP orders in the evenings.  But the quality is well worth it.

As stated above:  A clear return policy that is as obvious as a 2 x 4 to the forehead will eliminate some headaches; but for others...  no extreme efforts will please them.  

Sheesh...  I admire folks who work in sales...  (wait, I guess I do also - maybe that's why I'm always stressed :smile-big:.

Good Q/A Ed.


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## Displaced Canadian (Feb 10, 2014)

I must confess I didn't read the whole thread. To me getting an unexciting blank is the price you pay for buying it sight unseen. When I want an exciting blank I go to where I can see good pictures of it or buy it locally so I can hold it and see all sides of it.


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## Band Saw Box (Feb 13, 2014)

I think that unless the blank was defective when it arrived you should not get a refund. If you decide you just don't like it then it's your loss.  Working in retail you see people wanting to return things for just about any reason. Like the customer who was playing catch with a gallon of milk and dropped it he want the store to replace it. Or the one who are half a birthday cake and wanted to return it because it had tge wrong frosting. I'm sure there may be a someone out there that might expect a refund because no one liked it or as some of the reviews on Amazon say they sent the kit back because it was just little pieces and not a whole pen.


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## Mike Powell (Feb 13, 2014)

walshjp17 said:


> IMHO, if you buy it, it is yours. If you order by mistake, that is your mistake.  If the dealer allows returns, contact them to see if they are willing to make good your mistake.  Once you put tool to material, all bets are off.
> 
> On the other hand, if the dealer sends you something flawed or something you did not order, then by all means get a refund or replacement.


 
I agree, I would never expecta refund of a blank I dont like.  If there is an issue with it, thats a little different.  But if I looked at the site, and made the decision to purchase, its on me.  If it was something I just couldnt live with, I would call the vendor, and see if there was something we could work out, but I wouldnt expect it.


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## mredburn (Feb 13, 2014)

Stating a policy to protect yourself and your suppliers against abuse from someone who had buyers remorse or the blank wasnt quite what their client wanted is good business.  It also allows You the option to provide service above and beyond what anyone has a right to expect.  If you have a major manufacturing defect different story. Im sure your suppliers stand behind their products as strongly as you stand behind them.


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## larryc (Feb 14, 2014)

I agree that you should not expect a refund on anything except an out and out misrepresentation or obvious flaw. Anything other than that maybe a store credit.

Another poll might be in order (and if there already has been one, point me in the right direction). What about refunds on component sets? I often buy in quantity to obtain best price and it may be six months to a year before a I use all the parts and I may find a flaw in a component. (I hate when that happens because then I have to check the balance of the purchased sets to see if there are any more.) Should the buyer expect a refund or replacement six months (or more) after purchase?


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## ed4copies (Feb 14, 2014)

larryc said:


> I agree that you should not expect a refund on anything except an out and out misrepresentation or obvious flaw. Anything other than that maybe a store credit.
> 
> Another poll might be in order (and if there already has been one, point me in the right direction). What about refunds on component sets? I often buy in quantity to obtain best price and it may be six months to a year before a I use all the parts and I may find a flaw in a component. (I hate when that happens because then I have to check the balance of the purchased sets to see if there are any more.) Should the buyer expect a refund or replacement six months (or more) after purchase?



This is my PERSONAL opinion, Larry.  NOT what Exotics is doing, but what I always felt was reasonable.

I bought pen kits in 100+ and 300+ price categories.  This gave me SUBSTANTIAL discounts, compared with the guy buying one or ten at a time.  Taking just CSUSA's 25% discount for 100 pen kits, means you are getting 2.5 kits FREE for every 10 you buy.  Seemed to me that meant I should be able to absorb the cost of the occasional kit missing a part (which actually happened far less than 1% of the time.)   Returning things is a hassle---wastes time that has a value.  I knew I LOST components in my sawdust more often than they were "missing in the kit".

One way to account for this is to "cost" every component set at the ONE unit price and base your retail pricing on that.  Then the discounts you actually earn are "bonus" money.  Additionally, when you have a "special order" for a kit you don't have in stock, your pricing is already set up to allow you to order the ONE kit you need, although I don't think I EVER ordered fewer than 50---there's always SOME way to get to a discount!!

NONE of the manufacturers provide extra parts in shipments to dealers.  So every mistake is "covered" by someone else.  I always figured as the link that was closest to the customer, I was making the highest margin, I could best afford to replace what needed replacing.  Otherwise, if my dealer did it, they would raise the cost of the next shipment to cover not only the parts, but freight and handling costs.  So, in the long run, the cost of the kit was minor, as long as the instances were rare-----and they WERE, VERY rare.

What Exotics does:

As I said, Exotics does NOT use this philosophy.  We replace lots of parts, most of which are "penmaker error" in breaking things.  In the long run, all penmakers will pay for this.   There's no such thing as a "free lunch"!  Nor are there any FREE PARTS.

FWIW,
Ed


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## larryc (Feb 14, 2014)

Very good points Ed.

I was referring not so much to missing parts (which I don't think I have ever experienced) but things such as bad plating, cracked plastic components, bent ink fills or such.

I will remember your suggestions and consider the overall picture the next time I experience such problems.


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## ed4copies (Feb 14, 2014)

Definitely TELL the dealer about bad plating.  This issue will never go away, unless it is reported to the manufacturer.


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## larryc (Feb 14, 2014)

ed4copies said:


> Definitely TELL the dealer about bad plating.  This issue will never go away, unless it is reported to the manufacturer.



The last dealer I dealt with on bad plating (which was evident by roughness on the clip) made good on replacing the items but when I sent them back to him, (as he requested) hoping he could resolve the issue with his supplier he replied, "We had a good look at them and can hardly find any issues."


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## ssajn (Feb 16, 2014)

Hey Ed

I bought this Witness Wood blank from you a few years ago. 

After turning I decided I don't like the texture. Can I return it?

Here's a picture. :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:


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