# Why do kitless pens



## Cwalker935 (Jul 18, 2014)

I sometimes think about where do I want to go with my pen making and ask myself do I want to work toward kitless pens.  Obviously, the kitless makers out there have skills, knowledge and equipment far beyond what I have and I look at some of the kitless results with awe at the work effort.  However, I am not always impressed with the overall end result and wonder whether those pens are really worth the effort. Some of the pens are clearly on another level and I see that.  Others, however, are pretty hohum.  With that being said, could someone lay out the advantages of kitless pens?
Is there a specific market for these pens?
Do these pens command higher prices?
Is much of the value in knowing that you can do something that only a few people can do?

Maybe I do not get it because I was always just another ballplayer and not one of the guys that had the desire and determination to make it as a college player or even at the next level.  I am not trying to drag down kitless pens in any way and am really trying to understand the benefits of going in that direction.

Any thoughts?


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## mredburn (Jul 18, 2014)

One of the reasons  is the challenge of learning to make all the pieces.  I think that a lot of people that get into kitless are looking at the  rewards of doing it all yourself. There is some satisfaction attained by being able to design a pen and execute it without just turning barrels and pressing in parts. You will have to learn the relationships of the dimensions from inner diameters for ink refills or just the ink and the outer diameters needed for strength and how changing one a little affects the rest of the pen. Most will tell you its harder to sell a custom pen to the general public without all the bling. A collector or pen enthusiast will know the difference but not everyone will.  Kit pens can sell for more than custom depending on the market and the salesman. 
I think that a lot of people that get into kitless are looking at the challange and rewards of doing it all yourself


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## jyreene (Jul 18, 2014)

mredburn said:


> One of the reasons  is the challenge of learning to make all the pieces.  I think that a lot of people that get into kitless are looking at the  rewards of doing it all yourself. There is some satisfaction attained by being able to design a pen and execute it without just turning barrels and pressing in parts. You will have to learn the relationships of the dimensions from inner diameters for ink refills or just the ink and the outer diameters needed for strength and how changing one a little affects the rest of the pen. Most will tell you its harder to sell a custom pen to the general public without all the bling. A collector or pen enthusiast will know the difference but not everyone will.  Kit pens can sell for more than custom depending on the market and the salesman. I think that a lot of people that get into kitless are looking at the challange and rewards of doing it all yourself



Don't forget learning how much you dislike ebonite because you go through 2 feet if it making a front section because you hulk smash everything every time unless you live next to Jonathon Brooks and ask him to make you front sections when using ebonite because otherwise you're just wasting money. 

But they are great to make. Even my ebonite problems not withstanding.


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## Bruce markwardt (Jul 18, 2014)

I make them because I enjoy the process.  Always new things to learn and in the end they are something I designed and made and not something somebody in China designed and made.  

I don't sell many pens, so the difficulties selling kit less pens for a reasonable price isn't a big concern for me.


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## ed4copies (Jul 18, 2014)

If you make pens just for the pleasure and personal satisfaction, there is a lot of logic to making kitless.  You do a lot more of the construction, which takes a lot more time than a "component pen".  So, you will make fewer.

If you are not making them to sell, the pile gets taller, slower.  Which seems like a GOOD thing, to me!:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:


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## duncsuss (Jul 18, 2014)

The pens I make from kits are likely to be indistinguishable from the ones anyone else makes from the same kits.

The kitless pens I've made are all different -- they don't scream out that I made them because I'm no David Broadwell or Jack Row, but I can tell they're mine.


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## Smitty37 (Jul 18, 2014)

As near as I can tell there are only 2 reasons to make kitless pens.

1) Your personal enjoyment and satisfaction.  The value of that is entirely what you get out of it.  If it's fun, and satisfying for you - do it.

2) If you are very good at it, a lot better than most, and have access to the right venues, it might well be a way to sell more or higher priced pens.  Keep in mind, that most of those venues are closed to the vast majority of pen makers and are not easy to get into even for those who regularily work that market.  So if making more money is your aim - evaluate your marketing very carefully.


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## Cwalker935 (Jul 18, 2014)

Smitty37 said:


> As near as I can tell there are only 2 reasons to make kitless pens.
> 
> 1) Your personal enjoyment and satisfaction.  The value of that is entirely what you get out of it.  If it's fun, and satisfying for you - do it.
> 
> 2) If you are very good at it, a lot better than most, and have access to the right venues, it might well be a way to sell more or higher priced pens.  Keep in mind, that most of those venues are closed to the vast majority of pen makers and are not easy to get into even for those who regularily work that market.  So if making more money is your aim - evaluate your marketing very carefully.




If I go kitless it will be for reason number 1.  I do sell pens, but not to make any real money but to allow me to support my habit.  I envision that going kitless will require a lot of new tools and possibly a metal lathe.  I see plenty of challenges and some room for creativity with kits. Additionally I turn bowls, rolling pins, muddlers, etc and there are plenty of challenges there as well.  Kitless can always be a future challenge and I do not see any reason to rush down that path.

Thanks for everyones input, it's helped to crystalize my thinking.


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## lorbay (Jul 18, 2014)

Cwalker935 said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > As near as I can tell there are only 2 reasons to make kitless pens.
> ...


 Don't need a metal lathe to do kitless pens. I do have one but have never used it on my kitless pens.

Lin.


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## Displaced Canadian (Jul 18, 2014)

You can do it without the metal lathe. I started working without kits because I enjoyed fussing about making all the parts.

Sent from my phone using some program


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## D.Oliver (Jul 18, 2014)

The only reason I can think to do a kitless pen is that your entries for the Ball Point Contest and Slimline Contest are already done and you don't have nothing else to do!


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## Rich L (Jul 18, 2014)

mredburn said:


> One of the reasons  is the challenge of learning to make all the pieces.  I think that a lot of people that get into kitless are looking at the  rewards of doing it all yourself. There is some satisfaction attained by being able to design a pen and execute it without just turning barrels and pressing in parts. ...
> 
> I think that a lot of people that get into kitless are looking at the challange and rewards of doing it all yourself





Bruce markwardt said:


> I make them because I enjoy the process.  Always new things to learn and in the end they are something I designed and made and not something somebody in China designed and made.  ...





ed4copies said:


> If you make pens just for the pleasure and personal satisfaction, there is a lot of logic to making kitless.  You do a lot more of the construction, which takes a lot more time than a "component pen".  So, you will make fewer. ...





Smitty37 said:


> ...
> 
> 1) Your personal enjoyment and satisfaction.  The value of that is entirely what you get out of it.  If it's fun, and satisfying for you - do it. ...



Soundbiting and highlighting some previous posts but keeping context, I hope...

Most of those are my reasons but on top of it all, since I'm one of those "kitless" people, is _just because_. Amplifying the notes on personal satisfaction; it is enormously satisfying and I personally don't care if I sell a single one. But that's me. It's the journey above all. It's a hobby. It's art. It's for personal satisfaction, relaxation, enjoyment, enables my creativity, keeps me thinking, keeps my hands dirty, and on and on.

Cheers,
Rich


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## JPMcConnel (Jul 18, 2014)

*Control of the Process Leads to Satisfaction*

I enjoy making kitless pens because it gives me control over the whole process: design, fabrication, finish, and sometimes sales. I use a metal lathe because I value the precision and repeatability it brings to the process. I take great pleasure in solving the technical problems that pen designs can create as machine and material teach you the limits of your skills: it is all about learning and creating objects of beauty. Oh, you also meet some incredible people along the way.

Pat McConnel


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## reddwil (Jul 18, 2014)

Well since I'm just starting out, I seem to be making them to add to my endless supply of "well that didn't work" box of blanks.


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## Bruce markwardt (Jul 18, 2014)

Displaced Canadian said:


> You can do it without the metal lathe. I started working without kits because I enjoyed fussing about making all the parts.
> 
> Sent from my phone using some program



I also do mine on a wood lathe.  I haven't seen any reason to invest the time and money on a metal lathe.  

The things I think you do need are a set of digital calipers (which I would argue you also need for kit pens), a collet chuck set (which I also use for some segmented kit pens) and whatever taps and dies (and holders) you decide you need.


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## Cwalker935 (Jul 18, 2014)

D.Oliver said:


> The only reason I can think to do a kitless pen is that your entries for the Ball Point Contest and Slimline Contest are already done and you don't have nothing else to do!



You sir are shameless in your promotion of these contests.  I have turned a prototype of my planned entry for the slimline contest and have ordered a cigar kit.  So you seem to be getting some results.  I am only hoping not to embarrass myself given all of the talent that's out there.


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## mredburn (Jul 18, 2014)

Yes he is........ 
Bad Derek  He coiuld have at least mentioned the Kitless contest in a thread about why Kitless......


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## jyreene (Jul 18, 2014)

mredburn said:


> Yes he is........ Bad Derek  He coiuld have at least mentioned the Kitless contest in a thread about why Kitless......



Which is where the real action is. If you would kindly explain the difference between kits and components....


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## D.Oliver (Jul 18, 2014)

Cwalker935 said:


> D.Oliver said:
> 
> 
> > The only reason I can think to do a kitless pen is that your entries for the Ball Point Contest and Slimline Contest are already done and you don't have nothing else to do!
> ...


 
These contest aren't just about winning.  I mean sure it's nice to win, but I've found that I like the camaraderie, the experience of trying new things, and pushing yourself to become a better pen maker that you get with these contest.  Of course maybe that's just because I can't make a nice enough pen to win...........:tongue:  Just make the nicest pen that you can and you won't have anything to be embarrassed about, no matter how it stacks up to other pens.  Then when the next pen contest comes around you find a way to make to make a pen to top your last one.


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## MichaelD (Jul 18, 2014)

Why make kitless?

Because nobody make a kit like I want and so far I haven't made a kitless that's exactly like I want either.  I keep trying though and I enjoy it.


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## Signguy (Jul 19, 2014)

Would anyone care to elaborate on doing kit less without a metal lathe, specifically what is needed to do the threaded parts with taps and dies?

Thanks!


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## mredburn (Jul 19, 2014)

You will need a tap guide, and a die holder that fits your tailstock. This will allow you to properly align them to the work and cut the threads straight.


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## BSea (Jul 19, 2014)

I have a die holder from Little Machine Shop.  Die Holder - LittleMachineShop.com

I use my drill chuck to hold the taps.


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## plano_harry (Jul 19, 2014)

Have you looked on youtube?  Here is one:
Making a Kitless Pen on a Wood Lathe - YouTube


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## Signguy (Jul 19, 2014)

That video is great!  Really helped me understand.  Thanks for telling me about it.


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## Bruce markwardt (Jul 19, 2014)

That video is what got me started.


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## Tom_W (Aug 5, 2014)

1) Sole Authorship (As far as Possible)
2) Originality through Design, rather than mass produced kits.
3) To play with differing materials, e.g. Silver, Copper, Brass, hokum
4) Allows you to use a basic pen body as the canvas for further embellishment 
5) Gets your brain creatively working to what is possible, rather than the rote of turning a tube and pressing it home.

(Kits may make you more $ per hour)


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