# Penmakers Challenge stage 3



## ldb2000

This is a modified cigar pen made for the Penmakers challenge stage 3 . It is made with yellow pearl and black PR with parts from a black Ti cigar kit .
This design is the reason for the tenon at the centerband, there is no tube to support the segmenting . This time I managed to remember to recess the clip . The only thing I don't like about this pen is I should have painted the black segments white or yellow before I glued them up , the two yellow segments are over powered by the black segments and painting them would have allowed the yellow segments to show up better . I did glue the finial in on this one because of the transmission activator tube .
If you don't have a cigar kit or can't figure out how to make it work you are welcome to use a slimline kit and make a similar design . This one slowed me down a little , getting everything laid out . I like the overall design of this pen and it will be my new carry pen for awhile .
Have fun and work safe . As usual I will be around to answer questions but I will not give a tutorial just hints on how to do it . I'm sure everyone will be able to figure it out with a little thought and some logic .
All cutting and drilling was done on the lathe but if you don't have a scroll chuck or collet chuck you can use your DP for drilling . A hint on the activator tube , the transmission is 8mm .


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## maxman400

Butch I don't know about the painting problem, It looks good on this end. I was tied up on part two but I will be working on this one.


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## Dalecamino

Nice pen Butch ! I think I can do this .....we will see :redface:


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## DurocShark

Having never done a cigar, this will be interesting...


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## Stevej72

Hey Butch, nice looking pen!  I'll give it a try and see how it turns out.


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## DurocShark

Well, I've figured out how to make it. Now I need time to actually make it.

Anybody got any time to spare? I could use some.


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## Stevej72

Hey Don,  I got laid off last November so I have plenty of time to spare.  If we can only figure out how to get my spare time to you.


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## ed4copies

Time is the great equalizer, we all have the same amount each day!!!

(You will never regret spending it with your family-all other uses are optional)


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## DurocShark

ed4copies said:


> Time is the great equalizer, we all have the same amount each day!!!
> 
> (You will never regret spending it with your family-*all other uses are optional*)



At least according to my wife...


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## ldb2000

Time is something you are going to need for this one , there are a few design challenges to work out . Don't forget to make a tenon for the CB because there is no tube under it and a butt joint will break if it is stressed taking it apart to refill . 
A drill press won't be the best way to drill some of the parts so if you can drill on the lathe you will be much better off , if you can't I would advise you to get the equipment to do so , you will never regret spending the money .
You guys really whipped my butt with the beautiful pens you made on the first two stages , let's see if you can do it again here . Good luck everyone .


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## Papa Bear

Stage 3! I haven't had time to finish stage 2 yet!!!


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## ed4copies

Butch,

Just stopped by---PROMISE to be serious!!!!

Would it help to show the pen open?  For those who may not realize where the joint is--like me!!!

The refill is standard, the bottom tubes can't be "messed with" much, so I assume the whole upper section is supported at the black and yellow band, where you have incorporated the tenon.  But, seeing it open would answer the mechanical questions.

Just a thought!!!

(Serious enough???)


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## ldb2000

Gary , stage 2 is still open to posting so "get er done" and get it posted . As I said in the casual forum this stage is going to run for at least 3 weeks (I figure it will take longer to figure out this design) and I may extend it if it isn't enough time for some people . This isn't a contest so I'm not rushing anyone , it should be done in your leisure time and not take away from important things . 

Ed , Remember this is a challenge and showing the pen apart would give away too much of the design and this would just become a tutorial and I really don't want to debate those again , but you are correct the lower part is set up like a normal cigar with the transmission on the end of the lower tube but the upper part of the pen goes over the whole lower assembly and turns at the joint about an inch from the nib . You really can't see the joint so well , it's at the lower black stripe . The pen is designed along the lines of a PSI Longwood . I like this design because it gives a long blank to show off the looks of the blank . Like the Longwood , the upper tube is only in the upper couple of inches of the blank and the lower half of the blank slips over the lower tube so it has no support glued in to it which is why I put the CB on a tenon , the design is quite strong . Hope this helps .

Oh , and STOP being so darn serious . Sheesh , I go on one little tirade and everyone gets soooooo serious . Lighten up PLEASE !!! . This is going to be fun OR ELSE !!! :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:


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## ed4copies

We have no "cowering banana" smilie.


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## ldb2000

ROFLMAO .....  My smilie is on the shop computer so I will edit it in later .


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## soligen

This is my first cigar too.  Just got done examining all the parts and thinking about it.

I see three ways I could do this with it with this kit - depending on how many kit parts I want to modify.

I'm gunna pass on the step drilling option, so I need to modify at least 2 parts.  How many did you modify butch?


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## ldb2000

2 , the transmission coupler and the finial .


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## truckfixr

This'll be a first cigar for me also, but I'm in. Looks like it'll be fun.


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## ed4copies

You guys should use the cigar!!  I have sold over a thousand (best guess) and NEVER a return for tranny problems!!  

(Remember these were all made before China became a source, so this may NOT hold true any more)

The changes you will make for this pen can also be used to make a great "casing pen", if you like the Parker refill better than the cross-type.   It's really a more versatile kit than most have explored.

(Please don't hurt me, Butch!!!!)
(He's a big guy!!!  I'm worried!!)


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## ldb2000

For you folks that have never made a cigar pen , there are modifications to be made to the kit parts to make this work . While they are not hard , if you don't know how a cigar is built it may be difficult to make the modifications . The transmission coupler has a shoulder that must be removed so the upper part of the pen can be slid over the lower assembly , a dremel or grinder is the easiest way to do this but you could even carefully break the ring off with a pair of pliers and clean up the coupler with a file . The finial has an inner tube that slips over the transmission to operate the pen . You could either replace the finial with a new finial with the activator tube attached or try to use the stock activator tube and make a new finial to put on the top of the pen but the bushing that holds the activator tube is threaded and holds the clip in place so you will have to work around those problems . If you would rather use a slimline kit that would be ok and would avoid those problems . the choice is yours .


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## ldb2000

Ed , no worries . I'm just a big pussycat ... just ask my wife . Just don't "Cross" me ..... I'm a Parker fan :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:


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## truckfixr

ldb2000 said:


> "... If you would rather use a slimline kit that would be ok and would avoid those problems . the choice is yours ".


 
Isn't the main purpose of these challenges to get us out of our comfort zone? One could make a pen similar to your's pretty easily with a twist kit. The cigar kit will force us to think. That's always a good thing.


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## ed4copies

ldb2000 said:


> For you folks that have never made a cigar pen , there are modifications to be made to the kit parts to make this work . While they are not hard , if you don't know how a cigar is built it may be difficult to make the modifications . *The transmission coupler has a shoulder that must be removed* so the upper part of the pen can be slid over the lower assembly , a dremel or grinder is the easiest way to do this but you could even carefully break the ring off with a pair of pliers and clean up the coupler with a file . The finial has an inner tube that slips over the transmission to operate the pen . You could either replace the finial with a new finial with the activator tube attached or try to use the stock activator tube and make a new finial to put on the top of the pen but the bushing that holds the activator tube is threaded and holds the clip in place so you will have to work around those problems . If you would rather use a slimline kit that would be ok and would avoid those problems . the choice is yours .



If you happen to own a lathe and a Jacob's chuck, you can grab this piece by the protruding threaded end and run your tailstock up to hold everything steady, then turn off the shoulder using a normal "bastard file".  

(Of course, I just make kits, so this is all information I have been TOLD---no implication of experience should be taken!!!!)


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## ldb2000

truckfixr said:


> Isn't the main purpose of these challenges to get us out of our comfort zone? One could make a pen similar to your's pretty easily with a twist kit. The cigar kit will force us to think. That's always a good thing.


 
Yes it is , however I understand that money is tight everywhere and some might be reluctant to take a chance on wasting a kit or two trying something they have never done before . I really would like everyone to have some fun with this so I will stand behind using a slimline to create a pen . It will still be a pen that some have never made before so there will still be something learned which is the ultimate goal of these challenges .


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## ldb2000

Ed , you are again correct you could use a Jacobs chuck however I will STRONGLY  advise against using anything in the MT on the headstock if you don't have a Drawbar to hold it in place or without using the tailstock to support it and keep it from coming out of the headstock and becoming a dangerous projectile . Safety is still "Job One" during these builds . No one is allowed to get hurt and if you do you will not be allowed to continue ..... NO EXCEPTIONS !!!


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## ed4copies

ed4copies said:


> If you happen to own a lathe and a Jacob's chuck, you can grab this piece by the protruding threaded end* and run your tailstock up to hold everything steady*, then turn off the shoulder using a normal "bastard file".
> 
> (Of course, I just make kits, so this is all information I have been TOLD---no implication of experience should be taken!!!!)



Seriously,

It has worked for me dozens of times in making casing pens.  Keep speed slow (500-600 RPM)  Filing that shoulder takes less than a minute.  Does get warm, take it out with a needle nose--don't touch for 5 minutes or so.

ALWAYS have eye protection.  NEVER touch metal in your lathe!! HOT has a whole new meaning!~


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## soligen

ldb2000 said:


> 2 , the transmission coupler and the finial .


 
Thanks 

I was wondering if there was value in turning down the kit CB to the tube OD an still putting it on the upper tube - it would never be seen, but not sure if having it there would make any difference.


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## ldb2000

The kit CB won't fit over the 10mm tubes so it's not a usable part . There is no need for it in this design .


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## soligen

Another question - didnt apply to you since you didn't use wood, but if wood, should thre be a finish on the inside where there isnt a tube? Applying CA in there would be tricky.


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## truckfixr

ldb2000 said:


> Yes it is , however I understand that money is tight everywhere and some might be reluctant to take a chance on wasting a kit or two trying something they have never done before . I really would like everyone to have some fun with this so I will stand behind using a slimline to create a pen . It will still be a pen that some have never made before so there will still be something learned which is the ultimate goal of these challenges .


 

Good points. I'm sure to add to my limited knowledge through attempting this challenge.


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## Sylvanite

Since we're already discussing ways of modifying the coupler, here is my preference.  Some brands of cigar pen coupler will simply slide onto a standard 1/4" mandrel.  Some don't quite go on and need to be reamed with a letter "D" (preferred but 1/4" will work in a pinch) drill bit.  Once on the mandrel, it is easy to turn the brass shoulder down with a scraper.  The coupler doesn't get hot, and if you catch the brass dust on a paper towel, you can save it to use for infills later.

Regards,
Eric


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## ldb2000

soligen said:


> Another question - didnt apply to you since you didn't use wood, but if wood, should thre be a finish on the inside where there isnt a tube? Applying CA in there would be tricky.


 
No finish is needed inside . Again this pen is basically the same as a Longwood except beefier .


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## ldb2000

Great tip Eric , I had thought of using a mandrel but never got around to trying it .


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## Sylvanite

soligen said:


> ... if wood, should thre be a finish on the inside where there isnt a tube? Applying CA in there would be tricky.



If you feel the wood could use a little extra strength, then after drilling (but before gluing in the tube), you can drizzle some thin CA glue around the inside of the hole.  This will help harden soft woods on the interior of the pen.  Once the glue cures, you may need to chase the hole again with the same drill bit.

Regards,
Eric


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## Stevej72

I messed up my first try.  The tenon turned out great, but I miscalculated the length of the upper section.  Still might try and save it as that will be an additional challenge in itself.


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## ldb2000

Good point Steve , a little late to help you but .... Don't forget to add in the extra length that the stock CB add to the overall blank length . I measure the blank against a completed cigar pen . I don't have that measurement right now but when I get it I will post it for those that don't have a completed cigar pen . That little bit of difference can make a world of difference when you are assembling your pen . Been there , done that , got the T-shirt


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## Stevej72

Before I made the cut, the thought came to me to run upstairs and get a completed cigar.  I have one down there now.


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## soligen

ldb2000 said:


> Good point Steve , a little late to help you but .... Don't forget to add in the extra length that the stock CB add to the overall blank length . I measure the blank against a completed cigar pen . I don't have that measurement right now but when I get it I will post it for those that don't have a completed cigar pen . That little bit of difference can make a world of difference when you are assembling your pen . Been there , done that , got the T-shirt


 
Funny you should say :wink:. I just got done with my calipers.

Big Ben kit, The finished blank length (including the custom CB) is 4.25. Looks like you could go maybe 1/16 shorter in a pinch


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## RAdams

slick design Butch! I like the way that looks for sure! I am going to try something on my CB that should be interesting for sure!!


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## Sylvanite

ldb2000 said:


> I don't have that measurement right now but when I get it I will post it for those that don't have a completed cigar pen . That little bit of difference can make a world of difference when you are assembling your pen .


The cigar kit is very forgiving about length variation in the UPPER barrel.  Even if you leave off the centerband entirely, some brands will still go together.  Others might require you to shorten the brass tube that contacts the transmission (a disk sander works great for this).  Basically, as long as that tube firmly contacts the transmission, but doesn't bind it up, the pen will work.  The length limit is when the transmission bottoms out against the finial (or coupler).

The LOWER barrel length, on the other hand, is a critical dimension.

I hope that helps,
Eric


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## ldb2000

Sylvanite said:


> The cigar kit is very forgiving about length variation in the UPPER barrel. Even if you leave off the centerband entirely, some brands will still go together. Others might require you to shorten the brass tube that contacts the transmission (a disk sander works great for this). Basically, as long as that tube firmly contacts the transmission, but doesn't bind it up, the pen will work. The length limit is when the transmission bottoms out against the finial (or coupler).
> 
> The LOWER barrel length, on the other hand, is a critical dimension.
> 
> I hope that helps,
> Eric


 
Well ..... Yes and No . Yes there is some wiggle room in a stock kit , when you start modifying it that wiggle room is lessened by things like the CB and the finial . You have to make sure that the end of transmission don't hit the bottom of the finial . I have had this happen several times because I had modified the CB or length of the upper barrel . The finial mounting bushing does eat up over a 1/4" inside the upper tube and the end of the transmission is only about 3/8" from the end of the barrel to begin with so there is less then 1/8" to play with and if you are making your own finial you want the tenon to be long enough to give strength to the activator tube so you can very easily run out of room fast .


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## mbroberg

Made some significant progress last night but..................may have not made my tenon wide enough.  I'll find out in a little while:neutral:


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## soligen

On these cigar kits, do you guys use a 10mm or 25/64 bit?

According to the calipers 25/64 is a closer fit for the tubes in my kit.


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## ldb2000

25/64" is a tight fit and keeping enough glue on the tube might be a problem . I think 10mm would be better . Or drill at 25/64" and sand the hole to get the right fit .


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## mbroberg

*Stage 3, Take 1*

This one taught me a lot.  I think it looks pretty good, and it works fine.  More went right with it than went wrong.  However, there are some things wrong, which is OK since this is a learning experience.

I made the tenon too narrow (27/64) then attempted to drill 25/64 so it would fit over the lower tube.  1/32 is not enough wiggle room.:embarrassed: The segments are not supported by a tenon but they were epoxied and seem to be as secure as they can be.  i will keep this pen for daily use and see how it goes.

I ended up drilling slightly off center while doing the upper portion.  Not real noticeable, but off center none the less.:frown:

I didn't have to glue the finial in.  I got a real good, snug fit.

This is my first successful recessed clip. :biggrin:

I'll probably be giving this build another go in the next couple of weeks to see if I can work the kinks out.:wink:  I might try the next one closed end with a hidden clip.

Comments, criticism and suggestions appreciated.


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## David Keller

That looks good, Mike.  I'm still in the mental stage of this challenge.


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## DurocShark

I haven't even been in my garage except to work on my Saab since this was posted. Grrr...

Maybe this will be the kickoff project for my new lathe.


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## Stevej72

Mike, that is a good looking pen!


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## ldb2000

I just got in from picking the LOML up from the hospitial to find I missed the first posted pen :frown: should have let her sit there for another hour :devil::biggrin::beat-up:

The pen looks great Mike . I love the color , great blank .


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## Mr Vic

Butch, who's cigar kit are you using? I've got a Premium Cigar from Woodcraft with a screw on finial and a Bow Tie which is smilar that has a long press in? i Iknow who's brand I can look up the directions and compare...

Thanks!


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## ldb2000

I've had these sooo long I'm not sure any more (I don't use many kits anymore) . I think they are from Wood-n-Whimsies IIRC


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## Mr Vic

Found the directions...looks like a screw on finial instead of a press in....I'll go get to work now...


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## ldb2000

Vic , I think all the cigar pens have a screw on finial with a press fit bushing that also attaches the activator tube to the cap of the pen . I didn't use any of those parts but made my own finial that has the activator tube attached and the whole finial press fits (I glued mine in for added strength) into the cap barrel .


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## soligen

ldb2000 said:


> Vic , I think all the cigar pens have a screw on finial with a press fit bushing that also attaches the activator tube to the cap of the pen . I didn't use any of those parts but made my own finial that has the activator tube attached and the whole finial press fits (I glued mine in for added strength) into the cap barrel .


 
So, you made a step tenon on the finial then?

I have the PSI kit.  My plan is to just grind off the threads that the finial screws into.


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## ldb2000

No , it's a straight tenon drilled to accept the activator tube . If you grind off the threads then you will have to make the tenon thinner to fit the hole in the bushing which won't leave much meat left on the tenon . I'm not sure if that will be strong enough to hold up to normal use , the clip can put allot of stress on that tenon . If you are going to use the stock activator tube/bushing I would suggest that you try to turn down the stock finial and glue the new finial to it . The stock finial is brass I think so it can be turned with regular woodturning tools or a file would work , it would be slower but it would work .


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## Stevej72

I finished the pen that I had cut too short, by adding about .350 more of the green acrylic to the lower tube.  Unfortunately you can see the joint.  Also, this stuff was really brittle and chipped out pretty easily.  I did it all on the lathe.  I ground off the threads where the stock finial attaches and press fit the new finial in that part.  My next attempt I'll eliminate the threaded finial adapter thing.


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## rdunn12

Well I missed out on stage 1 and 2 and decided to jump in on stage 3.Took a little while to figure it out,works better than i thought it would.Tubes painted white.Blank is Ecru from Woodcraft.Comments welcome.


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## ldb2000

Great looking pens Steve and Ronald . 
Steve , A way to fix the lower blank would have been to add more black lines and create a CB on the lower barrel . I think it would have looked good with this design because the black bands are so thin . They would have blended in nicely . A thought for the next time .
Ronald , That is a fantastic blank and it matches the kit wonderfully . Is that the silver band from the original kit ? it looks great in there , I was thinking about using a few of them (I have a good supply now :biggrin  but didn't want to take the time to dremel the holes big enough to use them (I'm just lazy).


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## mbroberg

Steve & Ron, both nice pens!!:good::good:

There are a lot of opinions / discussions / questions about how to do the finial.  FWIW, I just turned a tenon on my finial to fit inside of the activator tube.  I then removed the threaded coupler from the tube.  I glued the tube into the upper barrel after I made sure that the lower portion of the tube would reach and engage the transmission.  Then I simply pressed the finial in place to hold the recessed clip.

Butch, If I understand you correctly, you turned your tenon then drilled it so that it would slip over the activator tube rather than press into the activator tube.  Correct?  

Hey, Got Stage 4 ready yet??:devil::biggrin:


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## Stevej72

Thanks Butch and Mike.  Good question, Mike, I didn't understand exactly how Butch did that.


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## ldb2000

Yep that's what I did ... almost . I drilled the finial blank for the activator tube then placed the tube in (not glued) and held it in place with the tailstock and turned the tenon to size and turned the finial to size and partial shape then parted it off and finished the finial on a jam chuck . then I measured and cut the activator tube for length and glued it into the finial . 
Nope stage 4 is not built yet but it is all planed out .


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## mbroberg

Got it.  The way you did it sounds like it would be stronger.


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## rdunn12

yes Butch that is the band from the original kit I was too lazy to turn one lol . Oh and by the way i went about this in a totally different way but achieved the same results.Hope that was ok.


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## Rick_G

Another piece of white Ash.  Used 2 pieces of pickguard for the CB and Ebony for the finial.  What I picked up on this one will get put to use on my cartridge pens that use the Parker refill.


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## DurocShark

That looks great Rick!


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## Stevej72

Rick, very nice looking pen!


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## RAdams

Well, I am officially skipping this pen. 

I had a nice Amboyna burl blank picked out from a recent trade. Got a handfull of CB sections cut from two different colors of PR. I decided to get fancy, and was going to do a glueless tenon, where the CB pieces are glued to the short piece of the main blank, and then drilled to accept the tenon from the larger section of blank. 

I started with drilling the longer section of blank. My plan was to glue this section, and turn the tenon, so i would have an OD for drilling the CB. Well everything was going fine, but like a big lazy super stupid idiot, I neglected to reset the belt on the lathe to the slow setting. So I am drilling the blank and I do super stupid mistake number two, which when done alone, is no big deal, but coupled with the lazy stupid mistake above makes for a very exciting milisecond!

I went to pull the drill bit out of the blank with the lathe running. I am very lucky that i don't have a 7MM bit and drill chuck hanging out the side of my head. The bit, chuck, and half of my sweet Amboyna blank went wizzing past my nugget. 

So, even though i was not injured, I simply am not comfortable trying to drill such a long blank section, so I will see about the next level, but I am officially done with this one... Good luck all, and BE CAREFUL!


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## ldb2000

Wow , I take a short break from the forums and all hell breaks loose . 
First , Rick that is another beautiful piece of timber you have , and you did a fantastic job with it . Beautiful pen .
Second , Rodney that is fine . I was thinking of using several of the left over CB parts myself , I was just too lazy to enlarge the holes in them for my idea .

Last , Ron .
Glad to hear you are alright . I bet that one left a skid mark somewhere . I understand your not wanting to continue and can't blame you . You actually made three mistakes , one was not slowing the lathe down for drilling the second is related to the third , you tried to pull the bit out of the work with the lathe running but in fact shutting down the lathe could have had the same results because of mistake number three which is the biggie , You were not holding on to the drill chuck with one hand ! . Just as in the headstock the MT on the tailstock is not a guarantee that the the tool placed in there will stay without a draw bar . When you are drilling on the lathe you can't use a draw bar so you MUST ALWAYS have one hand on the drill chuck . I had that happen to me one time when I first started drilling on the lathe , I did the same thing as Ron and as I went to pull the tailstock back to clear the drill bit the chuck came out of the MT , the bit and blank broke and the chuck went flying across the shop , missing my head by inches . To show the forces involved , I was drilling a Sierra blank with a 27/64" bit at the time , that is a thick bit and it just broke . 
NEVER , NEVER , NEVER use a drill chuck in the tailstock without keeping on hand on the chuck body . Also never use any MT tool in the headstock without a draw bar or the tailstock tight against the work piece . Even though you got a tight fit in the MT the forces involved can very easily cause it to loosen and be ejected at very high speed .
Remember everyone "Safety is job ONE" !!!!!!!!!


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## RAdams

Yes Sir! 

I am going to go ahead and continue, only with a different blank, and more caution. I have learned from the mistake, and will not make it again I assure you! I have also changed a little design element to make it easier (I hope). I got up to the point where it was time to drill again and decided maybe I will try later or tomorrow. I am still a bit apprehensive right now. I have come up with what i think will be a fairly unique pen!! If i can just keep from launching my drill chuck again.


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## ldb2000

Glad to see you get back on the horse . As I said "NEVER" take your hand off the drill chuck when the bit is in the work and the lathe is spinning . My skid mark happened when I was drilling a shorter blank , a Sierra , so it's not the length of the blank . 
We all get complacent when we do repetitive tasks and that's when accidents happen . I now hang on to that chuck religiously until the bit is out of the blank . I also wear my face shield any time my lathe is turned on . Overkill ? maybe but it sure beats a trip to the ER .


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## David Keller

Ron, glad you're alright.  I'll throw another one into the scrap box when I send it.  It's not full yet, so I don't know when that will be.


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## DurocShark

I'm a little peeved. I went to Woodcraft because I surprisingly don't have a 10mm bit. I wanted a Colt 5 Star. But they stopped carrying the 5 Stars in metric sizes. Wha? Only the standard double-twist bits. Not nearly as nice.

Grrr.... I coulda gone to Rockler and used my 15% coupon instead.


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## soligen

DurocShark said:


> I'm a little peeved. I went to Woodcraft because I surprisingly don't have a 10mm bit. I wanted a Colt 5 Star. But they stopped carrying the 5 Stars in metric sizes. Wha? Only the standard double-twist bits. Not nearly as nice.
> 
> Grrr.... I coulda gone to Rockler and used my 15% coupon instead.


 
That's odd.  The woodcraft by me has the 10mm


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## Rick_G

Glad you didn't get hurt Ron.  My lathe tailstock has just enough play in it I don't even attempt to drill with it unless I'm using a brad point bit.  It is the only way I can be positive the bit is centered.  I get better results with my drill press so that's what I go with 90% of the time.


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## ldb2000

I just went to the woodcraft website and it looks like they are getting rid of the Colt line . No 10mm and all the other sizes they have are on clearance .


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## DurocShark

The guy at WC said that corporate has decided there wasn't enough profit in the high end Colt 5 Stars. Sigh.


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## RAdams

David Keller said:


> Ron, glad you're alright. I'll throw another one into the scrap box when I send it. It's not full yet, so I don't know when that will be.


 


Cool, and no hurry at all... I don't even have any resin right now so i couldnt make any blanks to trade until i get more resin.


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## Stevej72

I ran out of allotted shop time before I finished the finial.  This pen is made with a Slimline kit. It has a tenon that the CB pieces are attached to.  Tried a different shape just for something different for me.  I will remove the stock finial and make a custom one when I am allowed more time in the shop.


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## ldb2000

Great looking pen Steve . I love that blank and the kit is a perfect match for it . Isn't it funny how just moving the CB down 1 inch can make such a big difference in the overall look of the pen .


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## Stevej72

Thanks Butch,  it is amazing how much difference moving the CB makes.


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## DurocShark

Blah. Tenon turned out of round. Needed to use a mandrel so I could use the cigar bushings (they didn't center on my drive center). Also munged up the coupler threads grinding the lip off. 

This isn't going well. LOL!


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## ldb2000

Don't feel bad Don . This is not an easy challenge , it was meant to slow everyone down and try to come up with solutions to the problems that are created when trying to use a kit in a way it was not designed to be used . As you can see by the high number of pens posted in this stage so far , it did slow everyone down a bit . All the techniques used in this stage are used in kitless work at one time or another , so if you ever want to ever go in that direction you will have the knowledge that you need to do it . 
Keep at it , I'm sure you will get it


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## DurocShark

This is what I get for working with a kit I don't know or particularly like. I'm not set up for it. 

I may go back and do it again with a 7mm kit. But at the moment I'm fighting with the brakes on my Saab. Just came inside for a break.


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## ldb2000

It's up to you Don , but this is supposed to be a challenge and it seems like that's what is doing so ..... This goes for everyone . If you are having a hard time with the cigar kits you can switch to a slimline and complete the challenge but you will learn more if you stick it out . 
Another hint , when you grind down the coupler , put the transmission on to keep from damaging the threads on it .
Don if you need another coupler PM me your address and I can mail you one , I have several extras from my twist Telesto pens , I dont use the coupler on those .


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## Sylvanite

ldb2000 said:


> Another hint , when you grind down the coupler , put the transmission on to keep from damaging the threads on it .


If you modify the coupler with the transmission on, be careful to keep the transmission clean.  You might consider taping the holes on the ends.  I've ruined transmisisons by getting brass dust in them and now I prefer to make all modifications with transmissions off.

Regards,
Eric


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## ldb2000

Good idea Eric , I haven't had any problems but better safe then sorry .


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## Rick_G

Sylvanite said:


> If you modify the coupler with the transmission on, be careful to keep the transmission clean.  You might consider taping the holes on the ends.  I've ruined transmisisons by getting brass dust in them and now I prefer to make all modifications with transmissions off.
> 
> Regards,
> Eric



I used a failed transmission for this doesn't matter if it gets dust in it or not.  Might want to save one of those old ones Eric.


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## handplane

I'm taking next week off work and planning to do all three challenge pens.  I will be using slimlines for all three since it's what I have.  Cigar kits never appealed to me so I have never bothered ordering any.  I may get a couple just to try something different.  I do like the looks of them after they have been modified though.  I have not done any lathe work for several weeks due my work schedule and it's time for some me time.  I'll post pics as I get them done.


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## soligen

handplane said:


> I'm taking next week off work and planning to do all three challenge pens. I will be using slimlines for all three since it's what I have. Cigar kits never appealed to me so I have never bothered ordering any. I may get a couple just to try something different. I do like the looks of them after they have been modified though. I have not done any lathe work for several weeks due my work schedule and it's time for some me time. I'll post pics as I get them done.


 
Great! Butch has one more convert to the dark side of the force! :biggrin:  I've learned a TON since doing these.   I'm sure you will too.


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## ldb2000

Darth Butch ???? It just don't sound right . I prefer the enlightened side of the force ... Obi wan Butch ... I like that better :biggrin:

Welcome to the fun Bryant . I look forward to your entries , hopefully you can learn some new techniques or improve those you already have . Either way , Have Fun and work safe


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## RHossack

Now you guys have done it ... I guess I'll try my hand at these ...

I was looking at the pics of the pens and my wife says ... 'why can't you make one like those for me?  I like fat pens (and hisbands apparently)  ... can you make me a fat click pen that looks like those?'

Since a cigar doesn't have a click pen I think I'll try using slimline pro ...


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## ldb2000

Hmmm a click cigar pen ... I like that idea . I think I'll give it a try :devil::biggrin:


Let's see now should it be a button click , like this 



 

Or a cap click , like this 






All joking aside Ron , it would be kind of hard to convert a slimline pro to a click cigar due to the different sized tubes . It can be done but you are going to have to deal with the differing tube sizes and come up with a new way to attach the clip . These two pens were designed using the click mechanisms from Richard Greenwald (http://richardlgreenwald.com/pen-parts-mechanisms-c-2_7.html)
They are basically kitless pens but I used the nib and clip on the button click and the nib and clip/finial on the cap click to save on building these parts .


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## maxman400

*Lava Red Modified Cigar*

Well here is my shot at it, it took about 3 1/2 hours but I Got to say I learned a lot. 
Thanks Butch for taking your time to do this. :highfive:


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## ldb2000

Great looking pen Max . I like the CB treatment it separates the blanks without breaking up the look up . 
I'm glad everyone is learning from these challenges . I still think this is the best way to learn , it makes you think about about how the pens are designed not just how to put them together . 
I was worried that this stage was a little too hard , in fact I still am a little , cigar pens do present some challenges when you try to modify them but they are really nice when your done . 
Remember that if you feel you can't figure it out with a cigar kit then use a slimline . It removes a couple of the hardest parts but you will still end up with a nice pen when you are done .


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## Stevej72

Hey Max, you did a great job!


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## Papa Bear

*stage 3 pen*



 Here is my stage 3 pen,again using the alt ivory and orange left from stage 2 and adding some aluminum to accent the chrome.I don't remember where I got this blue blank but it was full of pin holes!The same MO,no saws,all drilling and parting done on the lathe.I have been using my collet chuck alot more since starting these challenges.


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## mbroberg

Beautiful pen there Papa Bear.


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## Papa Bear

*better pic*



 Trying to get a better picture!               Thanks Mike!


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## ldb2000

Great looking pen Gary . Nice Blank , clean lines and the CB segmenting looks great . The aluminum is a nice touch .


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## handplane

I got started on this today.  I am using this also as a way to get better with the skew.  I made a parting tool out of a 1.5" putty knife and it works great.  If nothing else I have a new tool to play with now.  I did have one bit of excitement though.  I was putting a PR blank in the scroll chuck and got distracted by the wife and walked away for a bit.  When I came back to the lathe I assumed that I had tighten everything.  I was wrong!!!  Luckily I make it a point not to stand in front of the lathe when turning it on.  As soon as I hit the switch the chuck opened and the blank went flying.  To my surprise it did not break even after hitting the ceiling fan then the concrete floor.  It was one of Ed's blank BTW.  I put everything back in the lathe and made sure all was tight and the tail stock in place before  turned it on again.  I'll actually get to turning pens tomorrow.  I was waiting for some new drill bits so I stopped today with nothing drilled yet.


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## Mr Vic

Finally got to work on mine a bit yesterday. Took it slow and shot a bunch of process pictures. Didn't like the look of the domed finial so flattened it out and in the process broke through where the brad point had drilled deeper. It's repaired and multi coats of CA curing. Final sanding and assembly tomorrow I hope.


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## soligen

Mine is in progress too.  Glued up the blanks Sunday and worked on it some last night.

I was planning on pressing the finial into the upper barrrel and do final turning there for a perfect fit, but I dont have the right size collet to chuck it up.  I guess I'll have to use the micometer.

I didn't like how loose the lower part of the upper barrel fit over the brass tube.  I CAed the inside of the barrel where there is no tube (used a q-tip), and I put on coats of CA on the exposed part of the brass tube to build it up until I had a tight fit that doesnt bind with the twist action.  I'm sure the fit will wear over time, but it will start out right on.  I pressed the pen together in the rough to check the fit - I'm liking it.

I've also turned this about as thin as I dare. 

I'm going real slow - dont want to mess it up now.


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## Mr Vic

*Challenge 3 complete*

It's finally complete! Banksia and Blackwood. The finial has a triangle shped hole I filled with a black glitter and CA. IO alos replaced the black metal trim ring on the nib with Blackwood. Only real issue is a slight out of round that becomes apparent when you extend the tip. Might disassemble to work on recessing the clip. The finial is a press fit..


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## ldb2000

Great pen Vic . Nice combo of woods and kit and nice added touch with the blackwood instead of the plastic on the nib . Watch your clearance inside the upper tube if you try to recess the clip , you'll have to cut away a little of the barrel and you'll loose a little more when you counter bore for the clip recess .


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## soligen

This has been a comedy of errors for me.  Been a couple times that I thought the project was a complete write off and I would need to start over with a new kit & blank. Right now, it looks OK - I just need to finish the finial and glue it in.  Here is a list of issues I have had.  I'm probably not remembering them all.  Part of the reason I’m writing this “book” to the thread is to try to remember everything I learned.
 
I tried chucking up the 8mm tube with the finial attached.  Didn’t have the right size collet, so used a drill chuck.  This crushed the 8mm tube.  Luckily the finial tenon I made is pretty long, so I cut off the crushed portion and there is still enough left inside the finial tenon to operate the tranny.  Used a jam chuck instead to get the tenon turned to size.
 
I had to put the upper and lower together to turn on a mandrel.  I put a spacer between them while making the tenon, but the spacer broke out and the tool touched the lower.  Had to make the lower a little shorter to remove the damage.  Using a tube as a spacer instead of the upper barrel caused a big wobble – must have been some glue on the end of the tube inside the blank.
 
I has an issue doing final trimming on the CB because there was no tube there.  I didn’t want to cut a tube from another kit as a spacer (the obvious solution).  I can’t remember what I did, but it is square.  I’ll need to get some extra 10mm tube before I do this again.
 
When I started finishing, I had a low area.  I messed with the finish for a long time, then finally got out the skew and took all the finish off and evened everything up.  I learned one of the issues I’ve had with my joints is that when I apply CA to the barrels separated, it builds slower right on the edge, creating a valley when they are put together.  I thought I had to keep them separate to keep from glueing them together.  This time I left them together for the entire finish build and no issue – and the joint is much better (perfection still pending)
 
I pressed in the center union (the part the tranny screws on) so it would act as a center bushing for support while turning.  I ended up not being able to trim the excess CA because the barrel trimmer would not insert fully (don’t have the right size collet to do it on the lathe).  I punted using some PSA sandpaper on a bushing, but it didn’t sand square enough.  When I pressed in the nib, the center union got pressed in too far because I didn’t leave enough of a lip when I altered it.  This made a noticeable bulge in the tube.  Took a really long time to get the thing apart.  The inside of the nib needed to be reamed out a bit after all the pounding.  I forced the 10mm tube into my 3/8 collet and cranked it tight to press the tube back to size.  Up-side is I was now able to use the barrel trimmer to remove the excess CA square to the tube.
 
The recess fit is excellent, but I marred the finish while filing in the notch.  I sanded and buffed it out.  Still debating putting a couple more coats of CA on before final assembly as the repair didn’t take care of it all.  I had put on some blue masking tape, but not everywhere.  Lesson – cover all finished surfaces with blue masking tape when hand filing.
 
Had a lot of trouble getting the center union aligned, partially to the compounding of mistakes.  Because of my trimming issues, I ended up a little short (slightly less then 1/32) in the lower. So, I pressed in the center a little less to compensate (I didn’t leave an adequate shoulder to align it anyway.)  I had some binding issues in my test fittings.  Ended taking off all the CA I put on the exposed tube to make a custom fit. Still turned stiff.  Discovered I could see how much it was off my pushing on the upper barrel without finial and seeing how much the tranny was off.  Took a number of tries pushing the tranny back and forth to get it centered, but now there is absolutely no binding.  I have to wonder if the alignment will get knocked out of the pen gets dropped.  I used blue loctite, but it was already set before I had it tweaked.
 
Had the whole pen done except the finial was still in the rough – just the tenon containing the 8mm tube was sized (tight hand press fit).  I went to test the tenon with the recessed clip to be sure the recess was deep enough (its right on).  Now I find out that the tenon does not fit through the hole in the clip.  Pulled out an appropriately sized drill bit and started drilling – mistake.  The bit caught on the little clip and twisted it all up. I thought it was a write off.  I finally got it bent back to what seems to be acceptable shape with only one small nick in the plating.  I chucked up some sandpaper on a dowel to work on the hole – didn’t work very well.  Then I remembered that a while back I picked up a cheap HF dremel tool, which worked pretty well.
 
Just need to shape and finish the finial.  It may be the weekend before I can get a pic of the finished pen posted.
 
Another thing I learned – I need more collets.


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## Sylvanite

*Honeycomb Hickory and Walnut*

Here's mine.  I elected to leave the kit trim rings off the nib altogether.  I turned down the nib coupler (in addition to the transmission coupler) so that the lower barrel blank could extend down to occupy that space.  I reamed out both couplers with a "D" bit, so the lower barrel would slide onto a 1/4" mandrel.  I also didn't use the kit upper tube, finial, or finial coupler.  I step-drilled the upper barrel blank with 25/64" and "P" bits.  I drizzled thin CA glue in the hole, both to strengthen the wood (which was a bit punky) and so that the upper blank would slip over the lower tube with minimal play.  I knocked the finial coupler out of the 8mm tube, sanded away the flared section, and glued the tube into the small hole.  Then I mounted the upper and lower barrel blanks together on the mandrel, and used a bushing from an 8mm kit at the finial end.  That way, I could turn and sand the entire pen body as a unit - so the union is as seamless as possible.  The finial has a press-fit tenon about 1/2" long.  I mounted the upper barrel in a collet chuck, pressed in the finial, and turned it to match.  I separated all the parts, applied CA for the finish, and then re-joined them for sanding.  After buffing, I pressed all the parts back together.

My original design was to recess the clip in the trim ring, but it wound up too thin to hold.  Also, the finial tenon loosened up with assembly/disassembly, so I put a couple layers of thin CA on it to keep things snug.  In the end, I find I don't really care for the pen proportions, but it was interesting to make.

Thanks again for the challenge,
Eric


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## ldb2000

Great job Eric . I like the design changes . How did you account for the changes to the nib to keep the length of the barrel correct ?


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## Sylvanite

ldb2000 said:


> How did you account for the changes to the nib to keep the length of the barrel correct ?


The nib coupler has an integral trim ring, and a black-painted screw-on trim ring.  I assembled them, pressed both couplers (nib and transmission) into the tube, mounted it on a mandrel, and turned everything down to flush with the tube OD.  Then I glued on the blank.  I was very careful not to get any glue on the threads, and to glue the blank flush with the edge of the trim ring.  That preserved the lower barrel length so that the refill extends correctly.

Regards,
Eric


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## Stevej72

A friend of ours removed some trees from their parents yard several years ago,  Juniper I think.  She wanted me to make a pen out of some of the wood for her mothers birthday.  Here's what I came up with. 

This is a KC Twist kit.  Usually the longer tube is on the bottom.  On this pen I put the longer tube to the top, turned a tenon and glued on the CB rings that are made of Purple Heart.  The Purple Heart finial did press fit fairly well, but I took it back out and added a little epoxy to make sure it stayed in place.

She said she would probably order 5 more pens for herself and each of her siblings.


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## soligen

Here it is, the pen from hell.  Made from Philippine Persimmon and Redheart.

I'm still not happy with the fit on the finial.  I wanted the transition to be as good or better than the CB joint, but didn't achieve it.  I'm not sure I can without being able to turn the finial attached.

The other thing is that on the flat top I could not get the same sheen as the rest of the pen.  (not visible in photo).

The thin recess wall cracked a little when I final assembled.  I sanded and re-buffed the crack so you cant feel it with a finger (or even hardly see it).  Not sure if it will get worse.

Making this pen was painful, but I guess that's where learning comes from.


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## soligen

Eric,

I really like the nib mod - it mitigates what I like least about the cigar pen.  But I have a question. 

On the kit I have there is the band on the nib (that you left on) and it bevels toward the rest of the pen at about 45 degrees.  I dont see this bevel on your pen.  Did you trim this off (being carful of the plating) or did the kit you use not have this bevel? soemthing else?  If you look at my pen, I'm refering to the bevel just before the black band.

Thanks.


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## ldb2000

Each of the challenges someone made an outstanding pen , this is the one for this stage . This pen is absolutely , totally awesome Dennis . Your overall design and build is perfect and that finish is stunning . BRAVO !!!!!


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## ldb2000

Steve , excellent job on your entry . Also congrats on the sales .


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## ldb2000

Dennis , I do believe that Eric fit the bevel on the nib into a recess on the body to smooth the transition from nib to body .


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## Stevej72

Dennis, That is a beautiful pen!  I think the woods go together very well with the kit.  Your finish turned out very nice, too.


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## soligen

Thanks Butch. The design idea was fairly simple. I wanted the CB at the 1/3 mark (so I did the math), and I wanted the CB & finial to be the same width. I also wanted it as thin as possible, but I may have pushed this too far for durability - time will tell. The recess wall is no more than 1/32 - probable a little less. The tenon had only bout 1/32 as well. Good thing its a dense wood.


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## GaryMGg

I'm seeing some good looking workmanship posted here.
Y'all are doing really nice work. Highly respectable!


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## soligen

Hey Butch

No rush or pressure - just wondering for planning when you think the next challenge will be, and what kit or other materials we should have on hand to be ready.

Thanks


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## ldb2000

I was thinking about a more advanced cigar pen for the next one but interest seems to be waning so I'm not really sure . We have the cartridge pen contest going on right now and the PITH coming up next and with summer now in full swing people just don't have the time or energy . 
If I'm wrong , let me know and I can come up with a few more ideas .


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## Mr Vic

Butch, 

I for one would love to see more Challenges. I skiped #2 as I've done both tenioned center bands and custom finials. I was going to try your kitless challenge about a year ago but found I was in over my head (so I quit digging). Come along way since and projects like these guide the learning process.

Which ever way you, go thanks for all the inspiration..


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## soligen

I'd love to continue too.  This process has been fabulous.  I keep wondering "What's Next".


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## Rick_G

I'm all for continuing although for the most part I prefer the slimline because being retired money is tight and these pens will be sent to our military guys in the middle east.  My wife's nephew is over there right now so the first 3 along with a couple others with letters of support will be on the way next week.


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## handplane

I hope the challenges continue.  I am almost finished with the #2pens and will post them when I'm done.  I don't have any cigar kits but I'm going to do this challenge with a slimline for now.  The farther I get away from kits the better.  As soon as I get a collet chuck I already have my first full kitless pen figured out.  I do not trust my scroll chuck enough to try what I want to do yet.  I'm having trouble with it staying tight.  It has thrown a couple of blank at me already and I don't want the next one to be something that I've spent a lot of time on only to have it ruined by a tool I can't control.


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## Stevej72

Butch, I would love to do another challenge.  I've been turning pens for 5 years and what I learned so far in the challenges has really improved my skill a lot.  I have some Cumberland Ebonite that I want to make into a kitless FP.  Whatever you decide is fine, and I appreciate all you've done so far.


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## ldb2000

Ok , there seem to be a few who want to go on so now for the next question . What kind of kit to continue with , As modifiable as slimline kits are they are also kind of limiting in some ways . The 7mm tube size is a bit small for doing any major modifications and the cross refills must be changed from the top , so some of the more advanced modifications are out for slimlines .
Cigar kits are just as modifiable as slimlines and anything you can do with a slimline you can do with a cigar , in fact due to their larger tube sizes and Parker style refills are a better choice to do more extreme modifications , which is why I usually choose to use them over the slimlines . Cigar kits are a little higher priced then slimlines but it's only little bit higher so price really isn't a factor . 
Some of the things that make cigar kits more daunting to newer penturners are the very things that make them better for modifications . The coupler/transmission and activator tube tend to be the hardest parts to understand but they really aren't that difficult to work with and can add a totally new level modifications .
So with that said , which kit do we want to use ? I'll leave this question open for a few days for everyone who wants to go on to decide if we are just going to add a few more mods or step it up to another level .


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## soligen

I'm good with using cigar kits.  I'm not a real fan of the nibs, but I would rather use the higher quality kit to complement my hard work, and I'm sure there are plenty of others out there who like the nib.


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## RAdams

i am still working on stage 3, but dont know if i will ever get it done or not. i got sidetracked with Florida, and now i am pretty busy trying to hustle up work. We will see if i can get it finished any time soon.


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## DurocShark

Yeah, i haven't been able to get back to my #3 either. I changed lathes, got a new saw, had a life, etc. Still haven't gotten used to the new lathe either. It's enough different from my old TCPro that I can't seem to make @#%^.


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## wizard

Beautiful Pen Butch!!!!  I have to get a little further up the learning curve to compete with you guys!
Doc


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## Papa Bear

It doesn't matter to me which kit,I'm just ready for another challenge!


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## ldb2000

Doc , that's what these challenges are all about , helping folks get up that learning curve . You should check out stages 1 and 2 . We started off simple and have built on the techniques learned . The first stage is actually geared towards the newest members and is easily done by anyone who has done a few slimlines then stage two built on those techniques by adding tenons to the mix .


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## Stevej72

My choice would be the Cigar.


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## Mr Vic

Either Slimline or Cigar will work for me.....


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## mbroberg

I'll attempt to catch whatever you throw!!:biggrin:  The challenges are very worthwhile.  Thanks for your contributions to the advancement of our pen making skills.


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## ldb2000

mbroberg said:


> I'll attempt to catch whatever you throw!!:biggrin: The challenges are very worthwhile. Thanks for your contributions to the advancement of our pen making skills.


 
Aw shut up and get the darn PITH started already !!! :tongue::biggrin:




Just kidding Mike . I'm leaning towards the cigar and have a great pen design in mind , kinda hard but doable if you have been able to do the first three challenges . It's one of my favorite modifications .


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## Rick_G

I'll try anything you throw at us.  The pens from the first 3 challenges were shipped to some of our Canadian soldiers in the middle east today.  Looking forward to the next one.


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