# Sterling silver.  The low down and info goes here.



## edstreet

From another posts I was asking, as was others, about Sterling silver.  

http://www.penturners.org/forum/f14/sterling-silver-life-span-131998/

www.penturners.org/forum/f211/question-el-toros-132093/



The problem is there have been a number of disputes on several sides of the topic as to what the 'truth' is.  It has been my attempt to find out the truth of the matter and my first stop, today in fact, was to Berea Hardwoods.  They are the manufactures of the 'sterling silver' kits.  They also make a wide variety of other platings like platinum, rose gold and the like.  This is the reply I got when I inquired about the plating process.



> Dear Mr. Street,
> 
> Thank you for your interest in our products. In response to your question:
> 
> Our chrome is trivalent chromium plate. Chromium's symbol is Cr and is the 24th element listed in the Periodic Table.
> 
> Our sterling silver is an alloy of silver containing 92.5% silver and 7.5% copper by mass .Silver is the 47th element listed in the Periodic Table and its symbol is Ag.Sterling silver plating is extremely common; Google sterling silver plating for many examples.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> The Berea Hardwoods Co. Inc.
> 
> The Berea Hardwoods Co. Inc.
> 18745 Sheldon Rd.
> Middleburg Hts. Ohio 44130
> Phone: 216 898-8956
> Fax: 216 898-8962
> 
> PRIVLEGED - PRIVATE AND CONFIDENTIAL
> 
> This email and any files transmitted with it are intended solely for the use of the addressee(s) and may contain information which is confidential or privileged.  If you received this email and you are not the addressee(s) [or responsible for delivery of the email to the addressee(s)], please disregard the contents of the email, delete the email and notify the author immediately




Sterling silver plating is the most shiny.  One of my upcoming projects is to get the same kit with all 4 types of plating, sterling silver, chrome, rhodium and platinum then take a compare photo and show the difference.

As you can see the plating itself is indeed 'sterling'.


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## Dale Lynch

I'm eager to see the differences between the four side by side.


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## OKLAHOMAN

Guys and Gals, remember that the components Berea has are PLATED not SOLID STERLING SILVER.....A very big difference.


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## Smitty37

The Definition is the classic definition of Sterling Silver 92.5% silver 7.5% copper.  Silver is shinier than any of the other metals listed.  So the statement is true.

Sterling Silver does not wear like Chrome and it will tarnish. 

Then the question becomes one of all Sterling Silver or Sterling Silver Plate.   I think most offerings will be plate but I could be wrong....if it is not plate it WILL be very expensive..


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## OKLAHOMAN

Smitty37 said:


> The Definition is the classic definition of Sterling Silver 92.5% silver 7.5% copper.  Silver is shinier than any of the other metals listed.  So the statement is true.
> 
> Sterling Silver does not wear like Chrome and it will tarnish.
> 
> Then the question becomes one of all Sterling Silver or Sterling Silver Plate.   I think most offerings will be plate but I could be wrong....if it is not plate it WILL be very expensive..


 
Leroy, you are 100% right as the Solid Sterling Component Sets run from $219 up


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## edstreet

OKLAHOMAN said:


> Leroy, you are 100% right as the Solid Sterling Component Sets run from $219 up




Yet this is about sterling silver PLATING.  Technically by definition solid and plating is apples and oranges, no?


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## OKLAHOMAN

Ed yes apples and oranges but just wanted to make sure folks here knew that the question posted was "plating not "solid"


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## Smitty37

edstreet said:


> OKLAHOMAN said:
> 
> 
> 
> Leroy, you are 100% right as the Solid Sterling Component Sets run from $219 up
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yet this is about sterling silver PLATING.  Technically by definition solid and plating is apples and oranges, no?
Click to expand...

 Sterling Silver whether solid or plated is the same alloy.  Silver (other than Sterling Silver) on the other hand can contain either more or less silver than sterling silver.  US Silver coins for instance were  90% silver and 10% copper - a little less silver than an equal weight of sterling.  They would wear a tad better than sterling silver coins.


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## lwalper

I had always been under the impression that the silver alloy (sterling) would not plate _as an alloy_. Isn't the silver in solution the pure stuff?--with just a few microns of metal actually being plated to the base metal, typically copper? If the plating solution is a mixture of copper/silver, how do you know what percentage of each is being plated to the base?


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## Smitty37

lwalper said:


> I had always been under the impression that the silver alloy (sterling) would not plate _as an alloy_. Isn't the silver in solution the pure stuff?--with just a few microns of metal actually being plated to the base metal, typically copper? If the plating solution is a mixture of copper/silver, how do you know what percentage of each is being plated to the base?


 You have just been under the wrong impression.  Sterling Silver plate has been used for years in many applications.


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## edstreet

Argentium sterling silver - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## lwalper

Smitty37 said:


> lwalper said:
> 
> 
> 
> You have just been under the wrong impression. Sterling Silver plate has been used for years in many applications.
> 
> 
> 
> So silver plating solutions have copper (or some other metal) in them? "Sterling plate" may be Sheffield plating and not the typical electroplating we use today?
Click to expand...


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## lwalper

edstreet said:


> Argentium sterling silver - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


 That doesn't look like plate, but silver/germanium alloy solid material.


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## Kragax

I wonder why solid silver components are so expensive. Silver is cheap right now.


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## edstreet

Kragax said:


> I wonder why solid silver components are so expensive. Silver is cheap right now.



A baron's metal components weight is 0.65oz.  A full Jr George bag, including the bag, refill cartridge, brass tubes, etc is 1.65 oz.  Spot silver price today is $16.37. 

Melt value on a solid silver pen kit would be a whopping $10.64.  I think you are paying more for sentimental value than actual material cost.  Perhaps because it's 'high end' you are paying a nosebleed premium?


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## OKLAHOMAN

As the solid sterling component sets that are now available are made in limited numbers, your not only paying for the silver but the artists design time melting and pouring time, his cleaning up threading time, his  the lost wax castings, your looking at hours not seconds of manufacturing time.


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## Smitty37

edstreet said:


> Kragax said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder why solid silver components are so expensive. Silver is cheap right now.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A baron's metal components weight is 0.65oz.  A full Jr George bag, including the bag, refill cartridge, brass tubes, etc is 1.65 oz.  Spot silver price today is $16.37.
> 
> Melt value on a solid silver pen kit would be a whopping $10.64.  I think you are paying more for sentimental value than actual material cost.  Perhaps because it's 'high end' you are paying a nosebleed premium?
Click to expand...

The Argentium Sterling that you mention is a propritary alloy.  It is marketed in alloys that are either .935 or .960 percent silver making it purer than Sterling. It is highly resistant to tarnish, but not totally immune according to the maker.  I doubt that anyone making Silver plated pen parts or Sterling Silver plated pen parts is using it.

Traditional Sterling Silver items have an very high cost because it has problems in workability - making items out of Sterling requires some labor intensive steps.


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## BRobbins629

Silver plate comes out of the process shiny and ready for use.  Cast silver from lost wax process looks like this out of the mold.





While getting a piece to this stage is probably less than $10 including labor to cast the hard work to clean it up can take a while.  Sprues need to be filed smooth and considerably polishing needs to take place.  Most of the cost for solid sterling is labor. not material



edstreet said:


> Kragax said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder why solid silver components are so expensive. Silver is cheap right now.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A baron's metal components weight is 0.65oz.  A full Jr George bag, including the bag, refill cartridge, brass tubes, etc is 1.65 oz.  Spot silver price today is $16.37.
> 
> Melt value on a solid silver pen kit would be a whopping $10.64.  I think you are paying more for sentimental value than actual material cost.  Perhaps because it's 'high end' you are paying a nosebleed premium?
Click to expand...


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## edstreet

BRobbins629 said:


> While getting a piece to this stage is probably less than $10 including labor to cast the hard work to clean it up can take a while.  Sprues need to be filed smooth and considerably polishing needs to take place.  Most of the cost for solid sterling is labor. not material



So perhaps making something on the wood lathe out of a sterling rod of some form would be the better choice than the casting route?


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## vtgaryw

No statement from them though regarding wear characteristics.

Plating wear is dictated by a number of factors, including plating thickness and what material it is plated over.  Many platings require a layer of another plating material over the base metal to ensure proper adhesion and durability.  I'm not familiar with sterling silver though.

Gary


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## BRobbins629

edstreet said:


> So perhaps making something on the wood lathe out of a sterling rod of some form would be the better choice than the casting route?



Fabricating and casting each have their place.  You can also form a centerband from silver sheet by bending and soldering.  In the jewelry field, some like to cast and some like to make.  There are many ways to get to a final product.  Depends on your capability, what equipment and material you have etc.  So not better, just another approach.  Still a lot of finishing work for any method.  Many jewelers make round parts with no lathe.


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## Smitty37

edstreet said:


> Kragax said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder why solid silver components are so expensive. Silver is cheap right now.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A baron's metal components weight is 0.65oz.  A full Jr George bag, including the bag, refill cartridge, brass tubes, etc is 1.65 oz.  Spot silver price today is $16.37.
> 
> Melt value on a solid silver pen kit would be a whopping $10.64.  I think you are paying more for sentimental value than actual material cost.  Perhaps because it's 'high end' you are paying a nosebleed premium?
Click to expand...

Ed, looking at the "spot" price of silver is a meaningless exercise unless you are a very well informed comodities and silver investor.  Silver and gold prices have a negitive relationship with the stock market they go down if the market is going up and visa-versa...the market has been going up so they have been going down.  That will not last forever.  Get a crash in the stock market and the silver price could double over night.


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## Smitty37

edstreet said:


> Kragax said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder why solid silver components are so expensive. Silver is cheap right now.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A baron's metal components weight is 0.65oz.  A full Jr George bag, including the bag, refill cartridge, brass tubes, etc is 1.65 oz.  Spot silver price today is $16.37.
> 
> Melt value on a solid silver pen kit would be a whopping $10.64.  I think you are paying more for sentimental value than actual material cost.  Perhaps because it's 'high end' you are paying a nosebleed premium?
Click to expand...

Spot silver price is for a troy ounce which is a couple of grams heavier than a standard US ounce.  Spot silver price is also usually a futures price and not a "delivered" price.


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## Smitty37

edstreet said:


> Kragax said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder why solid silver components are so expensive. Silver is cheap right now.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A baron's metal components weight is 0.65oz.  A full Jr George bag, including the bag, refill cartridge, brass tubes, etc is 1.65 oz.  Spot silver price today is $16.37.
> 
> Melt value on a solid silver pen kit would be a whopping $10.64.  *I think you are paying more for sentimental value than actual material cost. * Perhaps because it's 'high end' you are paying a nosebleed premium?
Click to expand...

Of course you are Ed, that is true of any manufactured product made from any material.  Sometime check the variation in price of 16 oz. hammers with fiberglass handles.  $4.00 for a Pittsburgh from Harbor Freight to close $30 for a Plumb with lots of stops in between. 

BTW I have personally gone the extra price for a Plumb --- I also own a Stanley and an off brand as well.  In addition I have a couple of wooden handled hammers.  I say this just to illustrate that price isn't the only driving factor when we make purchases.


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## magier412

If you were interested in fabricating or casting sterling silver (or other precious metal) pens or parts, I'd recommend riogrande.com as a source.  As a silversmith and jeweler, I use them as my go to all the time.  As for pricing, spot is for unworked metals, so you can generally expect to pay at least $6/ounce for working - i.e., turning into sheet, tube, etc..  There are other sources, but Rio is what most jewelers use.  And if you are looking for silver or gold or mokume gane sheet to fabricate into pen parts, they'd be where I'd go.  

In fact, geez, silver is at $16.61 today...time to stock up on some metal for my studio!


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## edstreet

Smitty37 said:


> Sterling Silver does not wear like Chrome and it will tarnish.



Show me ONE example, please, of a sterling silver pen kit that has tarnish on it.  If they do indeed tarnish then ok, if they do not then ok but that info does need to be shown.  I do like to keep things factual and not hearsay.


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## Smitty37

edstreet said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sterling Silver does not wear like Chrome and it will tarnish.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Show me ONE example, please, of a sterling silver pen kit that has tarnish on it.  If they do indeed tarnish then ok, if they do not then ok but that info does need to be shown.  I do like to keep things factual and not hearsay.
Click to expand...

Ed, read up on Sterling Silver....it is a fact that Sterling Silver will indeed tarnish, regardless of what the application is.  I know that from personal experience owning Sterling Silver silverware which my daughter still owns.  Sterling Silver is Sterling Silver.


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## edstreet

Smitty37 said:


> edstreet said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sterling Silver does not wear like Chrome and it will tarnish.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Show me ONE example, please, of a sterling silver pen kit that has tarnish on it.  If they do indeed tarnish then ok, if they do not then ok but that info does need to be shown.  I do like to keep things factual and not hearsay.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Ed, read up on Sterling Silver....it is a fact that Sterling Silver will indeed tarnish, regardless of what the application is.  I know that from personal experience owning Sterling Silver silverware which my daughter still owns.  Sterling Silver is Sterling Silver.
Click to expand...



I understand that silver tarnishes, understand that very well.

however ...

I was asking for something very specific, 

sterling silver plated pen kits with tarnish on it. 


I have posted very specific opening information in the benefits of finding out the truth and I would very much appreciate if you were to do the same on this thread.  Not speak in vague generalities.  You would think with 19,900 members there would be at least ONE that could post or pm or email me a photo of the tarnish.


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## KenV

Ed --  I have a few pens advertised as sterling silver.  They appear to be clear coat treated.   Have not had one of the silver ones that was bare metal surface.

When the pens have been damaged, the clear coat is penetrated, and the shiny metal does not stop much and brass shows.  Not tarnished silver -- but bright to tarnished brass where scratched or worn.

Not like the old days when 24caret told was just that and wore through to the brass very very quickly.  Clear coats have made a difference in durabillty of metal films.


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## Smitty37

edstreet said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> edstreet said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sterling Silver does not wear like Chrome and it will tarnish.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Show me ONE example, please, of a sterling silver pen kit that has tarnish on it.  If they do indeed tarnish then ok, if they do not then ok but that info does need to be shown.  I do like to keep things factual and not hearsay.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Ed, read up on Sterling Silver....it is a fact that Sterling Silver will indeed tarnish, regardless of what the application is.  I know that from personal experience owning Sterling Silver silverware which my daughter still owns.  Sterling Silver is Sterling Silver.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I understand that silver tarnishes, understand that very well.
> 
> however ...
> 
> I was asking for something very specific,
> 
> sterling silver plated pen kits with tarnish on it.
> 
> 
> I have posted very specific opening information in the benefits of finding out the truth and I would very much appreciate if you were to do the same on this thread.  Not speak in vague generalities.  You would think with 19,900 members there would be at least ONE that could post or pm or email me a photo of the tarnish.
Click to expand...

Ed I spoke in actual fact....Sterling Silver does tarnish.  Whether anyone has a picture of a Sterling Silver Pen Kit with tarnish or not, doesn't prove or disprove anything at all. I personally don't own a sterling silver pen kit with or without tarnish. You have had the truth, supported by all kinds of information available to anyone and as usual you refuse to accept truth that does not meet your personal version of it. So I'll drop out of this conversation.


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## vakmere

And we'll be right back after a word from our sponsor........ Alka Seltzer 

https://youtu.be/48TewJlc6BA


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## 79spitfire

*snicker*

I have several samples of Sterling (not pens) and I can attest it does indeed tarnish. It seems to me the tarnish does form slower than other alloys of silver. 

Silver as a material is very durable. Any pen using silver hardware would easily outlast the first owner.


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## skiprat

You post something and the entire world is supposed to believe your every word, anyone else says something and you insult them by calling it hearsay.

Now, I have to admit that you do know some stuff and you can take a decent picture, but jeesh, you are without doubt the most obnoxious narcissist I have ever come across. 

Here is a pic of a pen that was labelled as Sterling Silver. There is of course no such thing as Sterling Silver Plate....if it's plated then it ISN'T Sterling.  



edstreet said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sterling Silver does not wear like Chrome and it will tarnish.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Show me ONE example, please, of a sterling silver pen kit that has tarnish on it.  If they do indeed tarnish then ok, if they do not then ok but that info does need to be shown.  I do like to keep things factual and not hearsay.
Click to expand...


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## jttheclockman

Gee Skip, where did you leave that pen. Outside??? You should take better care of your work


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## edstreet

skiprat said:


> You post something and the entire world is supposed to believe your every word, anyone else says something and you insult them by calling it hearsay.
> 
> Now, I have to admit that you do know some stuff and you can take a decent picture, but jeesh, you are without doubt the most obnoxious narcissist I have ever come across.
> 
> Here is a pic of a pen that was labelled as Sterling Silver. There is of course no such thing as Sterling Silver Plate....if it's plated then it ISN'T Sterling.
> 
> 
> 
> edstreet said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sterling Silver does not wear like Chrome and it will tarnish.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Show me ONE example, please, of a sterling silver pen kit that has tarnish on it.  If they do indeed tarnish then ok, if they do not then ok but that info does need to be shown.  I do like to keep things factual and not hearsay.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...



Thank you very much for the photo of the tarnished solid sterling silver pen that is one part of things.  Now if we can locate one that is plated and get a photo of that.  

I have applied the 'everything is hearsay unless you can show facts' to this thread to keep out the falsehoods, the myths and the like, then only thing left will be the truth.  I prefer the facts listed so everyone can see them, i.e. the posting from berea and your photo.

I will also be subjecting one of the platted kits to artificial tarnishing in the weeks to come for this thread.  Apart from that I will also be calling a shop that I work with who has a spark analyzer for cast iron.  I think it will show gold and silver in the report and if it does then it might be able to get a reading from that.


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## skiprat

That pen is plated. It was fraudulently sold by the vendor as Sterling.
If an item is sold or claimed as Sterling, then it MUST have a mark to prove it.
No mark.....not Sterling.


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## edstreet

skiprat said:


> That pen is plated. It was fraudulently sold by the vendor as Sterling.
> If an item is sold or claimed as Sterling, then it MUST have a mark to prove it.
> No mark.....not Sterling.



which kit is this and who made the kit?


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## Dale Lynch

skiprat said:


> You post something and the entire world is supposed to believe your every word, anyone else says something and you insult them by calling it hearsay.
> 
> Now, I have to admit that you do know some stuff and you can take a decent picture, but jeesh, you are without doubt the most obnoxious narcissist I have ever come across.
> 
> Here is a pic of a pen that was labelled as Sterling Silver. There is of course no such thing as Sterling Silver Plate....if it's plated then it ISN'T Sterling.
> 
> 
> 
> edstreet said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sterling Silver does not wear like Chrome and it will tarnish.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Show me ONE example, please, of a sterling silver pen kit that has tarnish on it.  If they do indeed tarnish then ok, if they do not then ok but that info does need to be shown.  I do like to keep things factual and not hearsay.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...



So I guess personal attacks are allowed when there directed at Ed.

So Skip,are you saying that the owners of Berea are liars?


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## edstreet

I was able to locate a few additional things of value.

Sterling Silver: What it Is, and is Not | eBay



> About the phrase "sterling silver plated" or "sterling silver filled:"
> There is no such thing as sterling silver plated or sterling silver filled. These are misnomers that are cropping up more and more often to refer to silver plated items i.e. "another material, brass/pewter/white metal/plastic etc, that are plated with a layer of pure silver" or "another material that is overlaid by a mechanical process with a layer of silver." Always check for the word plated or filled in the description even if you see sterling in the title. Especially if the price looks too good to be true. If you don't see the word plated or filled, and the price is still too good to be true, try searching the listing using the "Search" or "Find"  function under "Edit" in your browser. Sometimes it is in very small print.
> 
> If you see " STERLING SILVER PLATED" or " STERLING SILVER FILLED" items listed to the right of this guide, they are a good example of this deceptive practice. Since sterling silver items cost more than silver plated or filled items, manufacturers and sellers can get more people to look at their items by mis-describing them. The proper term for these items is "silver plated" or "silver filled."



"15 U.S. Code § 297 Stamping plated articles"



> (a) Words “sterling” or “coin” forbidden
> In the case of articles of merchandise made in whole or in part of an inferior metal, having deposited or plated thereon or brazed or otherwise affixed thereto a plating, covering, or sheet composed of gold or silver, or of an alloy of either of said metals, and known in the market as rolled gold plate, gold plate, gold filled, silver plate, or gold or silver electroplate, or by any similar designation, so imported into or exported from the United States, or so deposited in the United States mails for transmission, or so delivered to any common carrier, or so transported or caused to be transported as specified in section 294 of this title, no such article, nor any tag, card, or label attached thereto, nor any box, package, cover, or wrapper in which such article is encased or inclosed, shall be stamped, branded, engraved, or imprinted with any word or mark usually employed to indicate the fineness of gold, unless such word or mark be accompanied by other words, plainly indicating that such article or part thereof is made of rolled gold plate, gold plate, or gold electroplate, or is gold filled, as the case may be, and no such article, nor any tag, card, or label attached thereto, nor any box, package, cover, or wrapper in which such article is incased or inclosed, shall be stamped, branded, engraved, or imprinted with the word “sterling” or the word “coin”, either alone or in conjunction with other words or marks.




"15 U.S. Code § 296 - Standard of fineness of silver articles; deviation"



> In the case of articles of merchandise made in whole or in part of silver or any of its alloys so imported into or exported from the United States, or so deposited in the United States mails for transmission, or so delivered for transportation to any common carrier, or so transported or caused to be transported as specified in section 294 of this title, the actual fineness of the silver or alloy thereof of which such article is wholly or partly composed shall not be less by more than four one-thousandth parts than the actual fineness indicated by any mark (other than the word “sterling” or the word “coin”) stamped, branded, engraved, or printed upon any part of such article, or upon any tag, card, or label attached thereto, or upon any box, package, cover, or wrapper in which such article is incased or inclosed; and that no such article or tag, card, or label attached thereto, or box, package, cover, or wrapper in which such article is incased or inclosed shall be marked, stamped, branded, engraved, or printed with the word “sterling” or “sterling silver” or any colorable imitation thereof, unless such article or parts thereof purporting to be silver contains nine hundred and twenty-five one-thousandth parts pure silver; and that no such article, tag, card, label, box, package, cover, or wrapper shall be marked, stamped, branded, engraved, or printed with the words “coin” or “coin silver” or colorable imitation thereof unless such article or parts thereof purporting to be silver contains nine hundred one-thousandth parts pure silver: Provided, That in the case of all such articles whose fineness is indicated by the word “sterling” or the word “coin” there shall be allowed a divergence in the fineness of four one-thousandth parts from the foregoing standards: Provided, That in any test for the ascertainment of the fineness of any such article mentioned in this section according to the foregoing standards the part of the article taken for the test, analysis, or assay shall be such part or portion as does not contain or have attached thereto any solder or alloy of inferior fineness used for brazing or uniting the parts of such article: Provided further, That in the case of any article mentioned in this section, in addition to the foregoing tests and standards, the actual fineness of the entire quantity of silver or of its alloys contained in such article, including all solder and alloy of inferior fineness used for brazing or uniting the parts of such article (all such silver, alloys, and solder being assayed as one piece), shall not be less by more than ten one-thousandth parts than the fineness indicated by the mark stamped, branded, engraved, or imprinted upon such article, or upon any tag, card, or label attached thereto, or upon any box, package, cover, or wrapper in which such article is incased or inclosed, it being intended that the standards of fineness and the tests or methods for ascertaining the same provided in this section for articles mentioned therein shall be concurrent and not alternative.




According to this under USC it is illegal to list these pen kits as 'sterling silver' when they are in fact plated.  The illegal part is the use of the words 'sterling'.  This includes bags, labels, tags and website entries.


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## Dale Lynch

Thanks Ed for that info.

It appears that Skip is right.It cannot be labled sterling silver if it is plated no matter how pure the plating is.

I understand that now.To be called sterling silver the whole thing must be made of silver not just a portion of it.

I take back my last statement Skip.They are indeed lying when labling a plating sterling silver.

I'm sorry for shooting my mouth off.


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## KenV

Except these days the term is "marketing"  -


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## edstreet

Spanx said:


> Thanks Ed for that info.
> 
> It appears that Skip is right.It cannot be labled sterling silver if it is plated no matter how pure the plating is.
> 
> I understand that now.To be called sterling silver the whole thing must be made of silver not just a portion of it.
> 
> I take back my last statement Skip.They are indeed lying when labling a plating sterling silver.
> 
> I'm sorry for shooting my mouth off.



#1 valid argument you had was the personal attacks.  Skippy did have a very valid concern that I was wondering about when someone mentioned it to me.

From the way that I am reading this is that Berea will have to change the labeling as will all of their distributors like bear tooth woods, Arizona Silhouette and Exotic Blanks.

Another lead I have been following (yet no full data to disclose) is that the silver does not need to be present in 'silver plating'.  This would certainly hold true since I have been told by several vendor (they will remain nameless) they have yet to see one tarnish.


----------



## maxwell_smart007

Just a reminder - debate and discussion is well and good, but please be mindful that you're not directing angst at individuals.  Personal attacks are not allowed...

The thread's on the positive side - let's keep it there!  

Andrew 
assistant moderator


----------



## maxwell_smart007

Just curious if I'm following correctly.

So the issue is the word 'sterling'?  Calling it silver plated would be fine, but sterling silver plated is a misnomer, and sterling silver would imply solid?  (except for those advertised as solid sterling, with a price to match).  

If it doesn't tarnish, though, it can't be silver...it can be 'silver plate', as it's a plating that looks silver in colour (but possibly without silver)  

Is that the crux of the matter?


----------



## edstreet

maxwell_smart007 said:


> Just curious if I'm following correctly.
> 
> So the issue is the word 'sterling'?  Calling it silver plated would be fine, but sterling silver plated is a misnomer, and sterling silver would imply solid?  (except for those advertised as solid sterling, with a price to match).
> 
> If it doesn't tarnish, though, it can't be silver...it can be 'silver plate', as it's a plating that looks silver in colour (but possibly without silver)
> 
> Is that the crux of the matter?




From what I am understanding of the matter yes indeed the key word is 'sterling', even putting it on the plastic bags would be a no-no.

Silver plating services and kits have been around for some time and fairly easy to do in a home based shop.

Silver Plating Kits - Electroplating & Anodizing - Caswell Inc

I have also heard of some processes that will render silver unable to be tarnished but am unable to locate that information.  I have located info regarding platinum and rhodium plating over true sterling to stop tarnishing.


----------



## Smitty37

*Law*

I suggest before you jump to conclusions regarding the law spoken of you check into how it is interpreted by the courts and how it is applied.....Migliori v. Calise, 750 F. Supp. 57 (D.R.I. 1990) is a good case in point because it addresses a number of the points brought around in this discussion.  The intent of that law and how it is enforced by the courts is not as obvious as you might think.


----------



## maxwell_smart007

That was an interesting case-study, Smitty. I'm certainly not a lawyer, but it was an interesting (and for me, unexpected) decision.  

It seems that the issue for that case centred around the fact that the court only was willing to entertain arguments about fallacious claims in the presence of a physical stamp or marking - directly embossed on the item itself...i.e. it only is interested with stamps, not claims 'accompanying' the item.  It also seemed to focus on jurisdiction of the federal government in terms of policing purity...

That being said, as long as the term 'plated' is included, to show that the silver layer is shallow, would that be an issue?  The citation that Ed gave was from an eBay guide, which is hardly definitive.  Is there a concrete, legal, trade definition of Sterling which precludes it being referred to in reference to plating?  Coudn't a .925 plating layer, however thin, be considered a 'sterling plate'?   

Back to the case study, re the embossing: _Physical proximity appears to be the key. A verbal or written misrepresentation that is not appended to the item does not fall within the statute. The implication is that Congress was concerned with physical markings because such markings are presumed to be accurate in the trade and are presumed to be regulated by law. Physical markings, thus, have more credibility than mere representations._

There was a significant lack of precedence as well - so I suppose that the issue would be a 'dearth of cases' upon which to compare.  

I'm not a lawyer, and know nothing about the fine details of US law, but at the very least, it was an interesting read!  I find it interesting that precedence favours so heavily - wouldn't some case always have to be first, by definition?  

 Thanks for the interesting read, Smitty!


----------



## edstreet

maxwell_smart007 said:


> That being said, as long as the term 'plated' is included, to show that the silver layer is shallow, would that be an issue?  The citation that Ed gave was from an eBay guide, which is hardly definitive.  Is there a concrete, legal, trade definition of Sterling which precludes it being referred to in reference to plating?  Coudn't a .925 plating layer, however thin, be considered a 'sterling plate'?




The first link and quote was to the ebay guide.  The second and third was actual direct link to Cornell law, actual legal text.  Very much definitive.


----------



## edstreet

Migliori v. Calise, 750 F. Supp. 57 (D.R.I. 1990) :: Justia

The problem with that case is they did indeed receive what was listed, it was just not in bars like the buyer was assuming or wanting.


----------



## lwalper

maxwell_smart007 said:


> That being said, as long as the term 'plated' is included, to show that the silver layer is shallow, would that be an issue? The citation that Ed gave was from an eBay guide, which is hardly definitive. Is there a concrete, legal, trade definition of Sterling which precludes it being referred to in reference to plating? Coudn't a .925 plating layer, however thin, be considered a 'sterling plate'?


Well, now that it's been hashed over a bit -- I think I read somewhere along the line in the foregoing posts that silver plate is not "sterling" -- it's silver plate. Silver plate is pure silver plated from a solution of potassium silver cyanide - KAg (CN<sub>2</sub>) electropated over a base metal with a plating thickness of around 1.5 - 5 microns (not very thick - maximum around 0.0002").

Will silver tarnish? Absolutely, regardless of how thick it may be. Will silver alloys (i.e. "sterling") tarnish? Absolutely. Why don't sliver plated pen parts tarnish? Because they're coated with something else preventing tarnish. That seems easy enough. And yes, the suppliers selling "sterling plated" components should rethink their advertising. There ain't no such critter.

An interesting resource is the Metal Finishing Guide


----------



## Smitty37

edstreet said:


> Migliori v. Calise, 750 F. Supp. 57 (D.R.I. 1990) :: Justia
> 
> The problem with that case is they did indeed receive what was listed, it was just not in bars like the buyer was assuming or wanting.


The important part of the decision Ed was not the decision it was the courts interpretation of the law and the legislative intent behind the law and the courts citation of other cases - that would have been the same regardless of the case outcome.  The intent of the legislation itself was to protect honest jewelers from unfair competition of dishonest jewelers. The wording of the law not-with-standing, courts interpret the law with the legislative intent in mind -- legislative intent can only be found by finding information that is available but not included in the law itself such as the congressional debate surrounding passage.  I suppose we could find that if we knew how to search for it.  But one of the common name for the law included the words Jewelers Protection....It was aimed at the jewelery industry.   To get the law enforced one would have to either get a US Attorny interested, or bring a law suit (allowed under the law since 1970) themselves, in my opinion neither is likely to happen for pen kits...if a private suit is brought the plaintif would need to prove damages to collect anything to cover their cost of bringing suit and I doubt that anyone making pure pen kits is suffering any damages from plated pen kits the prices are far enough apart that they really don't compete.


----------



## avbill

If you are buying a necklace for your girl-friend or wife  do you buy a chrome necklace or  a sterling silver necklace.  Which has the higher value to it?


----------



## Smitty37

avbill said:


> If you are buying a necklace for your girl-friend or wife  do you buy a chrome necklace or  a sterling silver necklace.  Which has the higher value to it?


What is your point?


----------



## Quality Pen

Fascinating.

I had these questions myself Ed.

Thanks for bringing up this important topic.


----------



## jondavidj

Thanks Ed. Thank you for the follow through. Good information.


----------



## edstreet

I would like to take this time and thank Bereahardwoods for doing the following, it shows good intentions and you have to have respect and admiration for this.

It would seem that the website has been scrubbed all references to the word 'sterling' .

Sedona Silver Rollerball Pen Kit Making Supplies Berea HardWoods

Here is the link.

Here is the cached copy to show the before/after changes.







I am not sure of what is going on behind the scenes but I do know they have been watching this thread.  I am also not aware of any of the sub-vendors changing their lineup but I am assuming they will be following suit soon.


As for updates on this project I have acid based test kits for silver, platinum and gold on order and they will be here this weekend.  I will also be posting results for everyone to see.


----------



## OKLAHOMAN

Berea is showing that the major Vendors do watch us and will do the right thing given the opportunity and I'll bet they'll ask their resellers to do the same.


----------



## jttheclockman

OKLAHOMAN said:


> Berea is showing that the major Vendors do watch us and will do the right thing given the opportunity and I'll bet they'll ask their resellers to do the same.




Oh that is a true statement. This site is watched by many people that are behind the scenes. What happens here does make a difference. Many sales are generated from this site so they need to watch. Trends are fashioned from here as well. We do not know who actually is watching but be assured you are being watched. Good , bad , or indifferent this site is in the cross-hairs and on the map.


----------



## Quality Pen

While that is good to correct something... how long have these been for sale? How could they let something so important go unaddressed?

More importantly i look forward to following the development of this.


----------



## edstreet

Quality Pen said:


> While that is good to correct something... how long have these been for sale? How could they let something so important go unaddressed?
> 
> More importantly i look forward to following the development of this.



Any type of reply, other than directly from the source would be pure speculation.  

My current working speculation is that there is a language barrier, a culture barrier between the US and Taiwan.  When the plating was done the materials they purchased to plate with would be listed indeed as "sterling silver".  However, breaking it down from that, platting it onto other metals weakens the word "sterling".  Those who are fluent in that would be legal department and silversmiths.  Simply they could not have known about that and listed it as what the main ingredient was, sterling silver.


----------



## Quality Pen

My second thought was that... don't they have a legal team? Didn't want to break off the main point Because this is a valuable thread. Indeed we will have to wait and see what they say.


----------



## Dale Lynch

Kudos to Berea Hardwoods for taking action in addressing this issue.It shows that they care what we think.


----------



## Smitty37

Spanx said:


> Kudos to Berea Hardwoods for taking action in addressing this issue.It shows that they care what we think.


That could be....and in their research into it they might well have discovered that their Silver plating exceeds the standard for Sterling and that by using the word Sterling they were implying that they were down grading their plating.


----------



## edstreet

Preliminary results from the acid test shows there is no silver and not platinum present.  Will move forward to the atomic absorption (AA) spectrophotometer testing.


----------



## Quality Pen

edstreet said:


> Preliminary results from the acid test shows there is no silver and not platinum present.  Will move forward to the atomic absorption (AA) spectrophotometer testing.



Are you referring to the sterling parts?


----------



## edstreet

Tested the silver and platinum kit.


----------



## Smitty37

I've never used the acid test myself but just read about 200 or 300 reports of those who have and based on the results they were getting, I don't think I would.  Testing of solid items (i.e. silver coins) seemed to be pretty accurate but plated seemed to be all over the lot.  It will be interesting to see the AA results.

I'm not sure what you are trying to get at though? 

Silver plated kits are usually among the lower priced finishes, but higher than Chrome so I stay with Chrome because it has much better wear characterstics.


----------



## edstreet

Looks like exotics has updated the listings for the 'sterling' kits, which is good.  The plating link still shows it as sterling however.

I am unable to locate a sedona kit in rhodium plating, anyone have a source for some of those?  I may just have to break down and get a baron instead.


----------



## Smitty37

edstreet said:


> Preliminary results from the acid test shows there is no silver and not platinum present.  Will move forward to the atomic absorption (AA) spectrophotometer testing.


 How were the tests performed?


----------



## edstreet

Turns out the AA spectrometer is a no go.  That requires the material to be in solution.  However they can put it in the mass spectrometer.  The lab is shut down for two weeks.  Should give me enough time to possibly run other samples.  Perhaps the fabled 22kt gold?


----------



## Smitty37

edstreet said:


> Turns out the AA spectrometer is a no go.  That requires the material to be in solution.  However they can put it in the mass spectrometer.  The lab is shut down for two weeks.  Should give me enough time to possibly run other samples.  Perhaps the fabled 22kt gold?


I'm still interested in how the acid tests were performed.


----------



## Smitty37

Smitty37 said:


> edstreet said:
> 
> 
> 
> Turns out the AA spectrometer is a no go.  That requires the material to be in solution.  However they can put it in the mass spectrometer.  The lab is shut down for two weeks.  Should give me enough time to possibly run other samples.  Perhaps the fabled 22kt gold?
> 
> 
> 
> I'm still interested in how the acid tests were performed.
Click to expand...

FYI, My supplier applies their silver plating 20 microns thick over zinc (the base part is copper or bronz) and it is then coated with a clear epoxy coating. This is typical for the industry. That is a very thin coating but silver plated jewelry is often even thinner. The zinc is used because it is less reactive than copper or bronze and increases resistance to tarnish.

I also read elsewhere that epoxy clear coats will show a reaction to the acid used for testing silver. 

My supplier did tell me that some of their customers refer to items that are chrome plated as silver or gray metal.  They did not mention if any of those customers were US Based.


----------



## Smitty37

Smitty37 said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> edstreet said:
> 
> 
> 
> Turns out the AA spectrometer is a no go.  That requires the material to be in solution.  However they can put it in the mass spectrometer.  The lab is shut down for two weeks.  Should give me enough time to possibly run other samples.  Perhaps the fabled 22kt gold?
> 
> 
> 
> I'm still interested in how the acid tests were performed.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> FYI, My supplier applies their silver plating *20 microns thick* over zinc (the base part is copper or bronz) and it is then coated with a clear epoxy coating. This is typical for the industry. That is a very thin coating but silver plated jewelry is often even thinner. The zinc is used because it is less reactive than copper or bronze and increases resistance to tarnish.
> 
> I also read elsewhere that epoxy clear coats will show a reaction to the acid used for testing silver.
> 
> My supplier did tell me that some of their customers refer to items that are chrome plated as silver or gray metal.  They did not mention if any of those customers were US Based.
Click to expand...

Just to give you an idea of how thin that is there are 25,400 microns to an inch.  You are looking at about 8/10000th of an inch.


----------



## SteveG

That plating thickness of 20 microns might be easier to conceptualize by describing it to be just slightly less than 1/1000 inch thick, or alternatively: just slightly less than 0.001 inch.


----------



## Smitty37

SteveG said:


> That plating thickness of 20 microns might be easier to conceptualize by describing it to be just slightly less than 1/1000 inch thick, or alternatively: just slightly less than 0.001 inch.


  Or I could also havd said .0008 in. A micron is 1/1000000 of a meter....I actually thought, until I looked it up that micron was an Amercan rather than a metric unit.


----------



## SteveG

I was just putting the dimension into something many of us work with regularly. If a pen turner is working toward a "nice fit and finish", then he (or she) will be using the DC's and working in the +/- .001 or .002 inches of a target finish dimension, which is right at the thickness spec for the silver plate. Btw, 20 microns is a fairly heavy coating of silver (even acknowledging that the metal is soft and susceptible to brassing, unless there is a good clear coat applied for protection).


----------



## Smitty37

SteveG said:


> I was just putting the dimension into something many of us work with regularly. If a pen turner is working toward a "nice fit and finish", then he (or she) will be using the DC's and working in the +/- .001 or .002 inches of a target finish dimension, which is right at the thickness spec for the silver plate. Btw, 20 microns is a fairly heavy coating of silver (even acknowledging that the metal is soft and susceptible to brassing, unless there is a good clear coat applied for protection).


I understand what you were doing Seve.  I wasn't sure about how heavy that coating is for Silver, I knew it would be heavy for Rhodium and the Titaniums because making them much heavier can cause problems with brittleness. Still compared with the weight of metal in the whole item it is a very small percentage.  I think almost all kit manufacturers do use a clear coat of epoxy.


----------



## Cmiles1985

Ed, are you saying that you don't have a setup for acid digestion at your house? :biggrin:

I'm not exactly sure what the clear coat would be made of, but I would think an organic solvent (acetone, toluene, dimethylene chloride, etc.) would strip it off. Certain mineral acids will react differently with the metals in question. Nitric will dissolve some metals, but not others. Hydrochloride may dissolve some that nitric won't, but wave some that nitric will in tact. Same thing with sulfuric. Thus, the playing material *should* be able to be solubilized without carrying the base metal. 
GC will still require a solution, but will likely not handle the acidic solution required to dissolve the metals. If you can find someone that can run XRD or SEM, that may be your best bet.


----------



## Smitty37

Cmiles1985 said:


> Ed, are you saying that you don't have a setup for acid digestion at your house? :biggrin:
> 
> I'm not exactly sure what the clear coat would be made of, but I would think an organic solvent (acetone, toluene, dimethylene chloride, etc.) would strip it off. Certain mineral acids will react differently with the metals in question. Nitric will dissolve some metals, but not others. Hydrochloride may dissolve some that nitric won't, but wave some that nitric will in tact. Same thing with sulfuric. Thus, the playing material *should* be able to be solubilized without carrying the base metal.
> GC will still require a solution, but will likely not handle the acidic solution required to dissolve the metals. If you can find someone that can run XRD or SEM, that may be your best bet.


I didn't ask specifically for silver but have been told previously that the clear coating used is usually an epoxy.  There are several different possibilities for the acid formulation.  Without knowing what kit Ed used it's impossible to say.  Most of the kit acids will react with epoxy but some will react only on the surface and not penetrate to the metal.


----------



## BradG

wowsers.. that was alot of reading. are you guys intentionally trying to give yourself a headache here?

If the point of all of this is to see if kits are being fraudulently advertised, then it sounds like you've all worked that one out. As one post correctly said, its marketing. People presume sterling just means of really high excellent shiny quality and never get too drawn in with the technicalities of it. It's only the advanced turners who would even contemplate questioning this.

Ed, what you're referring to is chromate film, not resin :wink: which stops tarnishing.

There are general requirements for all types of surface engineering. With Silver, falling under Federal specification QQ-S-365D (Because I know you all love factual codes :biggrin: )

Matte (type I)
Semibright (type II)
bright (type (III) 
and with chromate filme (grade A)
Without film (Grade B)

The minimum thickness of 13μm

Then there's all the types which begin with AMS, which is used in aerospace which is obviously of a higher standard and stricter tolerances

Then there's ISO standards.



With regards to the plating process itself its almost exclusively done in a cyanide solution. They've exhaustively tried less toxic alternatives but struggle to match the overall results.

Firstly, it's not just a metal in these plating solutions. they're recipes to give the desired effect. I would put money on that these "sterling kits" simply contain a carbonate to aid conductivity and act as a brightener to make them extra shiny. (I will tell you all about carbonates and trisodium phosphate's in a few months  People who own metal lathes will love this stuff - don't ask, it's all secret for now :tongue: )

A typical recipe commercially used for plating silver decorative parts is

Silver as KAg(CN)2      g/L   15-40
Potassium Cyanide       g/L   12-120
Potassium Carbonate    g/L    15


if you think that's bad... just wait until you dive into gold and "chrome" 

half the time chrome isn't chrome
and ive seen pinkish coloured gold labelled as 24ct which is impossible. It's the cobalt hardener they add which turns it to a pink hue and cannot be classified as 24ct as a result of it. Also not very cheap solution either. costs me £290 per litre, for 6g/L


Smitty, you're in the right ball park with the zinc plate. It stops the copper based alloys from leaching through the silver plating.


----------



## Quality Pen

I missed you Brad


----------



## Smitty37

BradG said:


> wowsers.. that was alot of reading. are you guys intentionally trying to give yourself a headache here?
> 
> If the point of all of this is to see if kits are being fraudulently advertised, then it sounds like you've all worked that one out. As one post correctly said, its marketing. People presume sterling just means of really high excellent shiny quality and never get too drawn in with the technicalities of it. It's only the advanced turners who would even contemplate questioning this.
> 
> Ed, what you're referring to is chromate film, not resin :wink: which stops tarnishing.
> 
> There are general requirements for all types of surface engineering. With Silver, falling under Federal specification QQ-S-365D (Because I know you all love factual codes :biggrin: )
> 
> Matte (type I)
> Semibright (type II)
> bright (type (III)
> and with chromate filme (grade A)
> Without film (Grade B)
> 
> The minimum thickness of 13μm
> 
> Then there's all the types which begin with AMS, which is used in aerospace which is obviously of a higher standard and stricter tolerances
> 
> Then there's ISO standards.
> 
> 
> 
> With regards to the plating process itself its almost exclusively done in a cyanide solution. They've exhaustively tried less toxic alternatives but struggle to match the overall results.
> 
> Firstly, it's not just a metal in these plating solutions. they're recipes to give the desired effect. I would put money on that these "sterling kits" simply contain a carbonate to aid conductivity and act as a brightener to make them extra shiny. (I will tell you all about carbonates and trisodium phosphate's in a few months  People who own metal lathes will love this stuff - don't ask, it's all secret for now :tongue: )
> 
> A typical recipe commercially used for plating silver decorative parts is
> 
> Silver as KAg(CN)2      g/L   15-40
> Potassium Cyanide       g/L   12-120
> Potassium Carbonate    g/L    15
> 
> 
> if you think that's bad... just wait until you dive into gold and "chrome"
> 
> half the time chrome isn't chrome
> *and ive seen pinkish coloured gold labelled as 24ct which is impossible. It's the cobalt hardener they add which turns it to a pink hue and cannot be classified as 24ct as a result of it*. Also not very cheap solution either. costs me £290 per litre, for 6g/L
> 
> 
> Smitty, you're in the right ball park with the zinc plate. It stops the copper based alloys from leaching through the silver plating.


I had heard about a small amount of colbalt being added to increase wearability but hadn't heard about the effect on color.

One vendor selling Sterling kits has said the kit parts are .925 Silver then are silver plated to stop tarnish.... I am under the impression they are stamped somewhere on the kit.


----------



## BradG

Incase anyone's interested about gold plating:

The trouble with a gold bath is that it's starved to begin with, which makes it very difficult to manage. It's starved because of the cost of gold naturally

In comparison:

A chrome bath contains over 240g of metal per litre
Nickel and silver typically contain 37g per litre
Acid copper around 67g per litre

Gold on the other hand rarely contains more than a troy ounce per gallon (8.2g/L)

Gold used for striking and decorative touches can contain as little as 0.4 g/L

So it goes to show gold plating isn;t just gold plating. The quality and thickness of the plate will be determined by many factors, but ultimately will be limited to the gold concentration of the electrolyte itself.

Here's a snippet from one of my books


> With a starved solution, every control parameter in the plating process
> becomes more critical. Gold concentration, electrolyte concentration, pH, impurity level, and additive level must all be
> monitored and controlled. Temperature, current density, agitation, and the current efficiency must be accurately known
> and controlled beyond the degree necessary for copper, nickel, or even silver plating. If any factor changes, even 2 to 3%,
> the cathode gold deposition efficiency changes. If the efficiency decreases, items being plated under standard conditions
> will be underplated and the specified thickness will not be attained. Similarly, if the cathode efficiency increases, the plate
> will be too thick and result in increased cost because of using excess gold.
> 
> The engineer and plater of gold must tread the narrow line between not depositing enough gold and giving away too much
> gold. In addition, those concerned with gold plating must not only keep the chemistry of the process and the peculiarities
> of electrodeposition in mind, as do other platers, but also be aware of the market price of gold. The plater must be an
> economist in order to realize when the operating conditions of the solution should be altered or the entire process changed
> to reflect the changes in the price of gold. Economics also determines the total consumption of gold. In the recent past,
> when the price of gold vaulted above $500 per troy ounce, many electronics companies replaced some of the total
> thickness of gold with undercoats of palladium or palladium-nickel alloys. Others abandoned gold completely. Economics
> is a more important factor in the plating and metallurgy of gold than in the plating of nonprecious metals.




So, how do platers respond? Well, if I were to plate something in 0.4g/L the work is going to look pretty dull and poor to say the least because of how thin I would be doing the plating.. but what if I chrome plated it first and then gave it a thin coating of gold? The shine of the chrome will show through the thin layer of gold "appearing" to be really shiny gold. Take a look at the attached pens for comparison. both have been chrome plated (actually bright nickel - not chrome.. another industry lie... but could you tell the difference with an untrained eye?), and one has been brush plated with gold.. so a very thin coating, but the lustrous shine bursts through because of the chrome effect beneath. The third pen, which is etched has just been gold plated with no chrome underneath... see how dull it is?

Going on from there, different types of gold plating

FLASH PLATING - short process, generally 5 to 30 seconds and the deposit is around 0.05 to 0.1 μm
*24ct*
Gold 2g/L

*18ct*
Gold 1.6g/L
Nickel 0.15-1.5g/L

Hamilton
Gold 1.25g/L
Nickel 0.3g/L
Copper 1.5g/L

*White*
0.4 g/L
Nickel 1.1g/L

*Rose*
Gold 4.1 g/L
sodium hydroxide 15g/L
sodium carbonate 30g/L


As we can see, the gold content of Rose gold plating is alot higher than the others with 24ct coming in second.


These types of plating CANNOT be marketed as a gold electroplate as then it would require a thickness of at least 0.175μm.

If marketed as heavy gold, then 2.5μm


The trouble here, is because all of these values are so low compared to other metal plates, its very hard to maintain the balance of all of these metals in the gold bath. A slight drift in ph or electrolyte concentration of macrometals if you will, will give varied results including colour. not good if you;re looking for repeatability.


----------



## edstreet

How do you account for things like Ti gold and black Ti with color shifting over time?  These exhibit changes that we do not see in plated tooling like drill bits etc.

Also coatings like 'gunmetal' seems to be grossly misleading and one huge marketing ploy.  I lump this one in with "surgical stainless" or the "jewelry grade", "food grade", "restaurant grade" labeling.  So what exactly is 'gunmetal'  I know what it is NOT, and that is parkerizing.


----------



## BradG

edstreet said:


> How do you account for things like Ti gold and black Ti with color shifting over time?  These exhibit changes that we do not see in plated tooling like drill bits etc.
> 
> Also coatings like 'gunmetal' seems to be grossly misleading and one huge marketing ploy.  I lump this one in with "surgical stainless" or the "jewelry grade", "food grade", "restaurant grade" labeling.  So what exactly is 'gunmetal'  I know what it is NOT, and that is parkerizing.



colour shifting can be caused by leaching of the other base metals which are plated beneath, such as what Smitty brushed upon by plating with nickel before your final plate. other variables which could cause the colour to shift is by what the plating actually is as it oxidises. 

All of these plates will be done to a decorative level, whereas the plating on toolbits will be alot thicker, and alot stronger, with other alloys mixed in to give it the strength required.

Gunmetal is a mixture of either tin & nickel or cobalt, or zinc which just gives varying colours from dark blues to greys depending on how much of each is in the electrolyte. lots of recipes available for it in different formulations

all of these terms in my opinion, just describe the colour of the plating and do not reflect what the plating actually is. 

Black Chrome for instance. looks smart as.. It's just a thin layer of Tin or black nickel plated over chrome. so you get that shiny black look.


----------



## Smitty37

edstreet said:


> How do you account for things like Ti gold and black Ti with color shifting over time?  These exhibit changes that we do not see in plated tooling like drill bits etc.
> 
> Also coatings like 'gunmetal' seems to be grossly misleading and one huge marketing ploy.  I lump this one in with "surgical stainless" or the "jewelry grade", "food grade", "restaurant grade" labeling.  So what exactly is 'gunmetal'  I know what it is NOT, and that is parkerizing.


Ed, Titanium Gold can legally be listed as 24K gold because the tiny amout of Titanium in it isn't enough to require a lower carat marking.  

Gold Tn that commonly used in pen kits refers to the color - it has no Gold metal in it.

What would you call "gunmetal" kits Ed?  One of the definitions of gunmetal is "a dark blue-brown gray color"  The gunmetal metal, by definition,  is a form of bronze.


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## edstreet

BradG said:


> all of these terms in my opinion, just describe the colour of the plating and do not reflect what the plating actually is.



This would certainly make sense with the testing that I have done.  Well the results anyways, esp with the 'platinum' testing (resulted in 0 platinum present)

So on the entire 'titanium' line of plating it would certainly be possible to have no titanium in it correct?

From this I am wondering if it would be advantageous to say there is no gold in gold, no silver in silver, no rhodium in rhodium, no titanium in titanium, no chrome in chrome.


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## Smitty37

edstreet said:


> BradG said:
> 
> 
> 
> all of these terms in my opinion, just describe the colour of the plating and do not reflect what the plating actually is.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This would certainly make sense with the testing that I have done.  Well the results anyways, esp with the 'platinum' testing (resulted in 0 platinum present)
> 
> So on the entire 'titanium' line of plating it would certainly be possible to have no titanium in it correct?
> 
> From this I am wondering if it would be advantageous to say there is no gold in gold, no silver in silver, no rhodium in rhodium, no titanium in titanium, no chrome in chrome.
Click to expand...

Advantageous to who?  Since for the most part, that isn't exactly true either.  What has changed in the last 5 years is the method of applying plating to a base metal.  No one said there is no Gold in gold plating....just that there is not much gold in the solution used - what is deposited is gold.

btw the Titanium nitride and Black Titanium platings do contain titanium.


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## BradG

gold,silver are likely to be just that. how much of it however is debatable. 

Different metals I know of which can be plated are these.  Ti is not even on the list which leaves me to assume all of those platings are things what just look like what you would expect if it was infact plated in ti.

Chrome
Nickel
Iron
Cadmium
Zinc
Indium
Tin
Lead
Silver
Gold
Platinum Group (including Rhodium)
Copper


The crux of it to me is that all plating is quite frankly that.. plating. if you want something special, then get a solid piece. if you want something what looks the part but infact costs bugger all, then plating wins. I would certainly take all of it with a pinch of salt, and would more focus on how good of a plating the manufacturer offers, rather than what it actually is. Smitty mentioned his chap plates to 20μm which is good considering the requirement is only 13μm. This shows they make a better quality component compared to someone which is just meeting the industry standard, obviously only comparing thickness alone. many other factors need to be checked too to determine who is the better plater, but that would be a hell of alot easier to analyse  than trying to figure out if it is infact Rhodium.


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## edstreet

Brad,  

I for one would like to thank you for helping out in this topic as for years I have been asking some of these questions; as have others.  What little information is out there is not easily obtainable and having seen much marketing hype (I am not going there) that has done nothing but irritate me greatly.  You have certainly provided very valuable information.

With all the claims floating around no one has even brought up standards and to my knowledge no vendor list standards or even what the product adheres to.


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## Smitty37

BradG said:


> gold,silver are likely to be just that. how much of it however is debatable.
> 
> Different metals I know of which can be plated are these.  Ti is not even on the list which leaves me to assume all of those platings are things what just look like what you would expect if it was infact plated in ti.
> 
> Chrome
> Nickel
> Iron
> Cadmium
> Zinc
> Indium
> Tin
> Lead
> Silver
> Gold
> Platinum Group (including Rhodium)
> Copper
> 
> 
> The crux of it to me is that all plating is quite frankly that.. plating. if you want something special, then get a solid piece. if you want something what looks the part but infact costs bugger all, then plating wins. I would certainly take all of it with a pinch of salt, and would more focus on how good of a plating the manufacturer offers, rather than what it actually is. Smitty mentioned his chap plates to 20μm which is good considering the requirement is only 13μm. This shows they make a better quality component compared to someone which is just meeting the industry standard, obviously only comparing thickness alone. many other factors need to be checked too to determine who is the better plater, but that would be a hell of alot easier to analyse  than trying to figure out if it is infact Rhodium.


  I think Titanium nitride and Black Titanium are thought of as ceramics rather than metals. What ever the case I think they can be plated - Titanium Nitride plated drill bits have been available for years.  I think the Black Titanium is Titanium Dioxide and is used a lot in making Titanium jewelry - black Titanium rings are common, Walmart even carry's them.

In my opinion, a lot of the confusion here is a matter of semantics.  When I first started, most of the platers were electroplating in a bath of liquid and the big argument was over "rack" plating or "tumble" plating....now there are very few platings, if any, done that method, most are done with some sort of a vapor process and there seem to be a lot of factors figureing into the process have changed because of that.  I think the end result though must be nearly the same or the whole jewelry industry would be in deep yogart.


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## BradG

No worries Ed, :wink:


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## BradG

Smitty37 said:


> I think Titanium nitride and Black Titanium are thought of as ceramics rather than metals. What ever the case I think they can be plated - Titanium Nitride plated drill bits have been available for years.  I think the Black Titanium is Titanium Dioxide and is used a lot in making Titanium jewelry - black Titanium rings are common, Walmart even carry's them.



Indeedy, its an oxide layer rather than a plating from the little googling I just done.



> In my opinion, a lot of the confusion here is a matter of semantics.  When I first started, most of the platers were electroplating in a bath of liquid and the big argument was over "rack" plating or "tumble" plating....now there are very few platings, if any, done that method, most are done with some sort of a vapor process and there seem to be a lot of factors figureing into the process have changed because of that.  I think the end result though must be nearly the same or the whole jewelry industry would be in deep yogart.




I think they've just changed again after banning Fluro's. Back to tank it goes. (and sprung Ti rack for me every time :wink: )

The thing is I don't think we can compare the jewellery market to pen components. Jewellery will be plated to a completely different standard than decorative items. Unless someone is pitching extremely high quality pen components. Even if that was the case... I would like to see the plating data sheets before I would purchase any.


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## Smitty37

BradG said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think Titanium nitride and Black Titanium are thought of as ceramics rather than metals. What ever the case I think they can be plated - Titanium Nitride plated drill bits have been available for years.  I think the Black Titanium is Titanium Dioxide and is used a lot in making Titanium jewelry - black Titanium rings are common, Walmart even carry's them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeedy, its an oxide layer rather than a plating from the little googling I just done.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In my opinion, a lot of the confusion here is a matter of semantics.  When I first started, most of the platers were electroplating in a bath of liquid and the big argument was over "rack" plating or "tumble" plating....now there are very few platings, if any, done that method, most are done with some sort of a vapor process and there seem to be a lot of factors figureing into the process have changed because of that.  I think the end result though must be nearly the same or the whole jewelry industry would be in deep yogart.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I think they've just changed again after banning Fluro's. Back to tank it goes. (and sprung Ti rack for me every time :wink: )
> 
> The thing is I don't think we can compare the jewellery market to pen components. Jewellery will be plated to a completely different standard than decorative items. Unless someone is pitching extremely high quality pen components. Even if that was the case... I would like to see the plating data sheets before I would purchase any.
Click to expand...

You are probably right about that. I think we think in terms of jewelry because of the precious metals.  This thread started as a discussion of Sterling Silver marking...


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## edstreet

This is called bait and switch.


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## Smitty37

edstreet said:


> This is called bait and switch.


What is called bait-and-switch? "this" is not very specific. 

BTW the term is "bait-and-switch" and it means: the action (generally illegal) of advertising goods that are an apparent bargain, with the intention of substituting inferior or more expensive goods.  Which in my opinion doesn't even apply here.


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## edstreet

Just an update.   I have located a lab that will be doing testing for me on this project.  We are currently in the planning phase to ensure good conclusive results and valid data.


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## Smitty37

edstreet said:


> Just an update.   I have located a lab that will be doing testing for me on this project.  We are currently in the planning phase to ensure good conclusive results and valid data.


 That's good Ed, what are they testing?


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## Quality Pen

Thanks for doing this and sharing Ed.

We appreciate it!


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