# Question about segmented pen making



## woodscavenger (Nov 13, 2006)

I have done a few and I love the challenge.  I have been looking at the Gisi pens and wonder how the smaller "brick" work is done in terms of safely cutting the very small pieces.  Is is a scroll/band saw followed by disc sander?  Are the smaller bricks really cut on an angle and glued up like a segmented bowl?


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## ctEaglesc (Nov 13, 2006)

Everyone does them differently, I cut mine on a tablesaw.
The are some examples in my album


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## dfurlano (Nov 13, 2006)

No they are square cut and stacked. It really does not matter what you use to cut the pieces.  Although I will give you a hint and tell you they are not cut individually.


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## ctEaglesc (Nov 13, 2006)

> _Originally posted by dfurlano_
> <br />No they are square cut and stacked. It really does not matter what you use to cut the pieces.  Although I will give you a hint and tell you they are not cut individually.


Some times they are[]


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## ilikewood (Nov 13, 2006)

Eagle is a massive man with hands the size of peanuts!  That is the only way he could produce the tiny intricate work he does with out constantly being on his knees looking for the little pieces he dropped (which is what I do most of the time)[]


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## TellicoTurning (Nov 13, 2006)

Yes and everything I drop ALWAYS rolls under something that makes me get down on my knees and put my head close to the floor to look under.


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## ctEaglesc (Nov 13, 2006)

> _Originally posted by ilikewood_
> <br />Eagle is a massive man with hands the size of peanuts!  That is the only way he could produce the tiny intricate work he does with out constantly being on his knees looking for the little pieces he dropped (which is what I do most of the time)[]


Now you know why I use CA.
Those small pieces are always stuck to my fingers.


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## woodscavenger (Nov 13, 2006)

Come on guys spoon feed me!!!


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## dfurlano (Nov 13, 2006)

Think of a rubik's cube.


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## jjenk02 (Nov 13, 2006)

> _Originally posted by dfurlano_
> <br />Think of a rubik's cube.



I had one of those one time, I threw it in the trash, it frustrated the hell out of me[:I]


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## woodscavenger (Nov 13, 2006)

I get the rubik's idea it is the safety issue I am trying to figure out without having to chase little pieces as they fly across my shop


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## DCBluesman (Nov 13, 2006)

> _Originally posted by woodscavenger_
> <br />Come on guys spoon feed me!!!


Get out a big spoon, then go to http://content.penturners.org/articles/2004/osbornesegpen.pdf


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## dfurlano (Nov 13, 2006)

Tape or vacuum.  There are several guides to building a vacuum fence.  A lot of segmented bowl turners have some very unique ideas.


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## tnilmerl (Nov 14, 2006)

dfurlano says to "Think of a rubik's cube.".  Let's see, when I was in college, my roomate used dental floss and vaseline to 'lube the cube'.  I used the old peel and stick method (peel the labels off and stick in the correct location).[]  So what should I be thinking when I think rubic's cube?

As far as intricate laminations are concerned, shouldn't you think of a checkerboard instead?  

I consider the Gisi pens at the top of the food chain in skill, technigue and design.  I would start further down the food chain.  If I believed in Darwin's theory of evolution, I would be down at the pond scum level, but trying to crawl out onto dry land.  []

My problem at this stage of the game insn't the lamination or glue-up.  It is the consistent, accurate, and precise cutting required.


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## jeffj13 (Nov 14, 2006)

> _Originally posted by tnilmerl_
> <br />
> My problem at this stage of the game insn't the lamination or glue-up.  It is the consistent, accurate, and precise cutting required.



This can be remedied by using jigs.

jeff


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## ctEaglesc (Nov 14, 2006)

I am quoting this reply but it pertains to all


> _Originally posted by tnilmerl_
> <br />dfurlano says to "Think of a rubik's cube.".  Let's see, when I was in college, my roomate used dental floss and vaseline to 'lube the cube'.  I used the old peel and stick method (peel the labels off and stick in the correct location)  .[]So what should I be thinking when I think rubic's cube?
> As far as intricate laminations are concerned, shouldn't you think of a checkerboard instead?
> 
> ...



I know I am going to get flamed for this reply.
I don't mean this to sound harsh it is based on experience and that is a reality.
If that was your method of solving the(Rubik Cube)  "problem" then I suggest you stick with solid wood pens.
You indicated that rather than solving a given problem it was easier to give  up.
Rather than experiment on your own you are taking the easy way out and asking for answers rather than experiencing the joy of discovery.
Ironically I received an e-mail from a member this morning.Here is a direct quote from part of it:
_" I had e-mailed you and asked you how you made the rope pen you made with the blue and white rope (I liked it so much I still remember what it looked like)- you basically challenged me to figure it out and to try to do it on my own, instead of just being hand fed directions. And so I did, and it came out quite well I thought. It probably would have been easier to do if I'd had step by step directions from you, but wouldn't have ended up being as satisfying, b/c what I ended up with was a pen that I liked, together with the satisfaction of having figured out something that I'd admired in your pen! So I appreciated that from you.
"_
The  methods of making intricate segmented designed blanks requires "problem solving".Usually solving problems requires effort on ones part.I have never refused a  request to help someone if they have made the attempt and could ask a question based on their failures. 
Good Luck in your efforts.
Here's a hint I met you on Woodnet a woodworking forum.Apply those skills to what you are after.
I think Edison once said he found 99 ways not to make a light bulb.
WD40 is named so because 39 formulas didn't work.
It took me 6 weeks to make Pentarsia.There are only 2 (so far)
It took 10 days and countless trial and errors to come up with a method to make my inlay blanks.
Good luck whichever direction you choose to take.


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## tnilmerl (Nov 14, 2006)

Thanks for the advice.  No offense taken.  Just a little tongue in cheek humor.  I grew up creating and solving puzzles.  Brother-in-law actually hand makes the classic rope-n-ring variety (He has a PhD from Princton and solved the rubik's cube in his head while driving home for the thanksgiving holidays).  The love of puzzles is a primary common bond I have with all my family members.  Any puzzle, from the tactile variety to the intellectual logic types.  This may be one of the reasons my primary career has gravitatied into the computer programming arena.  Remove all the nomenclature and voodoo, computer programmming is, in a nutshell, just problem solving.  Repeated step-wise refinement.  Break all big problems into smaller problems.  Keep breaking and solving.  Similar principles can be applied to all ventures.

I wanted to expand the intellectual into something I create with my hands and have chosen woodworking as my hobby.  Pen making has married my two hobbies (woodworking and pen collection) together.  It has been a great roller coaster ride, full of immense personal satisfaction and, at times, intense frustration at my own limitations.  Time and perserverance will overcome all the obstacles.  

Oh, and I stuck with it and did finally solve the rubik's cube.  I took me 5 weeks.  No sticker movement.  And vaseline does help lubricate the parts for easier rotation.[]


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## ctEaglesc (Nov 14, 2006)

Thanks for understanding my reply in the spirit in which it was given.


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## tnilmerl (Nov 14, 2006)

Since we're on the topic of segmented pens, I have a question concerning your holly cross pen.  Knowing that bisecting a round object at an angle produces an oval (hey, high school geometry class does actually pay off!), I 'assume' you make your inlays in a round form.  If this is true, what angle range do you use to produce the cross in oval on your pens?


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## ctEaglesc (Nov 14, 2006)

I don't make them round I make them in an oval.
If I were making them as you suggest I could not call them Inlays.
They are true inlays.
A lot of terms are mistakenly thrown about on this forum, but because at heart I am a woodworker I try to use terms that woodworkers understand.
An inlay is just that an inlay,
A segment is not a lamination.
A glueup is a generic term.
To make an inlay you fabricate the inlay, make the pocket, glue the inlay in the pocket.
The inlays I make are time consuming and not as simple as drilling a hole at an angle.That is realtively crude.
I have been woodworking for over 30 years, most of it has been wood butchering or making stuff out of busted up pallets.
I have learned that many penturners are not woodworkers.
I have also learned you don't need to be a woodworker to make a wooden pen.
What I do, uses the basics of woodworking with the same tools you would use to make an entertainment center but I use them to make items that are more delicate on a smaller scale.
The priciples are the same.
Square, straight, flat and plumb.
Without accuracy you wind up with less than acceptable results.
I once asked someone who has an article on the home page how to do inlays and the answer was buy a $2,000 machine.
I wasn't satisfied with that answer.
I used my woodworking skills to geet the results I get.The skills I have are based on 30 years of working with wood.There aren't any shortcuts.


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## tnilmerl (Nov 14, 2006)

Thanks for the clarification.  Sounds the same as my Texas stars I hand cut from antler and inlay into my mesquite pens.  A lot of work, but it gives me the results I want.


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## dfurlano (Nov 14, 2006)

I hint of the rubik's cube is to think about it when it is completed and work backwards to when the colors are mixed.  The cutting technique use to make the bricks is not important.  In fact it is very simplistic with no special tools or jigs.


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## Charles (Nov 15, 2006)

Love your all's tenacity for problem solving. Also I agree with what all of you are saying. I personally don't have the 30 years past experience or the mentors/teachers to show me the level of expertise some of you have. I began to late in life and am self trained to reinvent the wheel everytime I want to learn how to do something. Therefore I will admire your work and read any tutorials people are willing to share. Once the basic ground work is known NEW ideas can emerge. Rather than trying to figure out, on ones own, how to invent what has already been invented.[]


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## bob393 (Nov 15, 2006)

Many different ways, I use a table saw. As far as I know that's the way guitar binding and rosettes are made. Slice it up and glue it. Turn it 90 degrees cut again and glue. Perhaps not quite that simple but that's the idea.


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## angboy (Nov 16, 2006)

I've done things in pen making using both the spoon fed and the figure it out yourself methods. There are some things I wouldn't have been able to accomplish without a tutorial, like setting up my pressure pot for casting. And even with a tutorial for that, I still had to turn the operation over to my dad. Most people here know that I use my dad as a resource and there are things that he does for me at times. But, I've also learned to try things for myself and to challenge myself to learn new things. I don't think I have much natural inclination towards any type of woodworking, but I do have an interest in making things that I consider to be attractive. The reality is, that for me at least, there's added pride in finishing something I make that was challenging, but that I stuck with.

I have a picture to post in SOYP, of a cactus pen I made. I did copy the idea of using cactus from Curtis, and I know he wrote a tutorial on how to cast the cactus skeletons, but I didn't even look at it to do my casting. I've cast cactus once now, and I definitely will do some things different next time, but I'm still quite proud of this pen, even though I've certainly seen better cactus pens.

I guess my point is that while there may be some things that each of us individually might not be capable of doing (like I'm not likely to climb Mount Everest), it doesn't hurt to try/experiment/risk screwing things up. [] So if you try making something segmented, maybe it won't come out looking like what you're trying to emulate, but maybe you'll start the next new trend in segmented items.


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## pmichris (Nov 16, 2006)

Hijack Hijack. Ok I am going to go a little off topic here and hijack this thread.  With the discussions about Problem Solving I would like to make all of you aware of an incredible program called Destination Imagination.  It is a creative problem solving competition with levels from elementary school through University and even a level for us adults who refuse to grow up.  The kids in this program must develop their own solutions to problems that sometimes seem impossible to adults (like building 2 balsa wood structures with a combined weight of 14 grams, thats about a 1/2 ounce and then watching them hold over 600 pounds yes it can be done I have seen it).  If any of you are into problem solving, and I belive many of us here are I would strongly encourage you to check out the program and volunteer to helpout in your area.  There are teams competing in 9 countries outside the US and 46 states in the US.  If you want more info please feel free to email me or go to www.destinationimagination.org


Good days to you all and keep on turning.

Chris


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## doeringr (Jan 29, 2007)

remind me not to ask for advice


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## woodpens (Jan 29, 2007)

> _Originally posted by doeringr_
> <br />remind me not to ask for advice



There are some people that want to make a production of their knowledge rather than simply answer a question. Please don't hesitate to ask for help. We're not all like that.




> _Originally posted by ctEaglesc_
> <br />I once asked someone who has an article on the home page how to do inlays and the answer was buy a $2,000 machine.
> I wasn't satisfied with that answer.
> I used my woodworking skills to geet the results I get.The skills I have are based on 30 years of working with wood.There aren't any shortcuts.



Dang, I hate it when somebody gets booted from the site before you realized they slammed you... He's a technophobe. []


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## thompo (Feb 2, 2007)

I, too, am wanting to build bricks for segmented pens...The problem with cutting small parts is that they tend to bind in the table saw.  To make it easier I use a sled on the saw and just built a clamp fitting for the sled to hold small strips and parts for cutting.  I have a few pictures of this if anyone wants to see them.

thompo


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## dfurlano (Feb 2, 2007)

The problem I have is that Brian showed me his technique and I would not feel comfortable posting what I did not come up with.


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## woodpens (Feb 2, 2007)

> _Originally posted by thompo_
> <br />I, too, am wanting to build bricks for segmented pens...The problem with cutting small parts is that they tend to bind in the table saw.  To make it easier I use a sled on the saw and just built a clamp fitting for the sled to hold small strips and parts for cutting.  I have a few pictures of this if anyone wants to see them.
> 
> thompo


I would love to see the pictures. I don't know if I'll have time to get the sled made before my back surgery. If not, I guess I'll have a long time to plan it. [V]


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## graningwood (Feb 3, 2007)

I would also like to see the pictures if not to much trouble.


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## airrat (Feb 3, 2007)

I am always amazed at the reason behind this site I thought was to share pens, share ideas, share knowledge, share laughter, share, share, share.  Parts of this thread is a good example of how this site should not be.   Just because someone asks how something is done, does not mean they should be told to figure it out on their own.   If that is the case let me ask all of you that feel that way,  why did you go to school?   Didn't school show you the basics?   Didn't higher education show you the process?   Yeah, sure after that you had to continue to learn on your own.

Some people here have not had the basics nor do they have all the equipment that others have.  I once asked someone a question here when I first joined.  His response was rude to say the least.  I won't say anymore about him.

Let's try something new here.  If someone asks a question like the OP did.  Why not try to "guide" them with the basics.   We don't have to spoon feed but try to remember when you were in school.  No one told you to go learn your multiplication table without giving you something to start with.

I still have not tried a segmented pen like that due to trying to make a sled for my table saw.  Its a Ryobi and does not have miter grooves.  It has the sliding table and I have not been happy with anything I saw or tried for safety reasons.

edited due to typing and no coffee. need keep both eyes open!!


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## kenwc (Feb 3, 2007)

I'd like to see the pics of the sled too please.


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## dfurlano (Feb 3, 2007)

I have a small vacuum fence if you are interested.


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## Tanner (Feb 3, 2007)

"Let's try something new here. If someone asks a question like the OP did. Why not try to "guide" them with the basics. We don't have to spoon feed but try to remember when you were in school. No one told you to go learn your multiplication table without giving you something to start with."

I agree with Tom.  I may not have a lot of knowledge or experience with woodworking or pen making, casting, stabilizing, drilling, gluing, etc.  I do love to make pens and see something I made with my own hands.  I have had a lot of help from many people on this site.  I think for the most part everyone here does share the knowledge.  I had a boss many years ago when I first started in the pest control field say to me, " There is no such thing as a stupid question, just stupid people asking questions."[V]   After that comment I never wanted to ask him another question.  Three years later I had his job.  My point here is that if someone is not willing to share the knowledge, maybe they're afraid of you becoming a better pen turner than they are.[]  I share my knowledge of pest control all the time with anyone who wants to know.  

Some of you are so knowledgeable you may skip the small stuff (to you).  Like, in making of the segmented pens, what type of glue do you use and if it's CA, is it thin, medium or thick?  You know, stuff like that.  

From what I've seen on this web site with people finding stuff and using it in their pen making, you're a bunch of MacGyver's.  You all remind me of my Grandpa.  My mom always says "He could make a silk purse out of a sowâ€™s ear."

Anyway, thanks for helping me get this far in pen making and thank you in advance for everything I will learn in the future here.


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## ericw95 (Feb 3, 2007)

Tanner - well put.

Have you come up with a termite or spider pen?


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## Tanner (Feb 3, 2007)

Yeah, my plans are to take a larger pen like the cigar and lighter wood.  Then with my Dremel, drill some oblong holes down to the brass tubing.  Then paint the bottom of the holes white.  Then drop an ant in each hole.  I'll have to toss the ants into some alcohol first to kill them without damage.  Then dry them out as if I was preparing to put them in an insect display case.  I'll just fill the holes with thick CA, making sure not to damage or mess up their placement.  I'll have to walk the neighborhood to find the specimens as I can't seem to find any insects around my house or customers accounts.[]  I also want to find a fresh Bark Scorpion and wrap his tail around the pen, and encase him like that in CA.  I'll have dig more wood out for that though.  I'll have to go out at night with a black light for that since they glow under the black light.[:0]  When I'm done I'll post the scary creations.  I don't have a lot of talent yet, but I'll give it a shot.


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## TellicoTurning (Feb 3, 2007)

Tim,
Back in the dark ages when I was young, my chief petty office told me "the only stupid question was the one you didn't ask".

To that end, what type of blade do you use on your table saw to make the fine cuts.. I know I need to change my blade that came with the saw.. it's much too coarse and has a wide kerf. 

and would it be easier to use a miter/chop saw with a thin kert blade.  I know a band saw has the thinnest kerf, but tends not to make really square cuts (or at least I don't)


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## Tanner (Feb 3, 2007)

All I have is a band saw.  I did just buy one of those mini chop saws from Harbor Freight.  I was looking at 10" chop/miter saws.  What would cut these long segmented pieces better, a table saw with a fence or a miter saw?  After that how do you make sure it is sanded straight so as to not show any gaps?  I saw in this post where someone used a piece of glass to hold the sandpaper straight.  I don't have a disc sander either.  I guess if you have the right tools it is easier.  For $350 I could get a planer from Home Depot.[]


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## hrigg (Feb 3, 2007)

I glued up three pine boards into a cheap miter box, and use a $20 Gent's saw to cut blanks to length.  I think the saw is 18 or 24 tpi, but I've had it so long the ink has worn off the blade.  I used the saw to make the kerf in the miter box, and when it gets too sloppy I'll get some more scrap pine and make another one.  If you cut the blank about 1/8" long it doesn't really matter if the cuts are perfectly vertical--that's what the pen mill is for.


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