# Why do you insist?



## pilot1022

Why is it when people photograph their pens or other small items they insist putting other items in the photo? If itâ€™s a wood pen they put it on a wood stand or a wood block to support the pen. Or they might make a setting to put the pen in thinking it will look natural; rocks , shells or sticks of wood, you get the idea,  hence they think, a better looking photo. If youâ€™re trying to create an artsy photo to enter a photo contest then fine, but remember this, youâ€™re shooting a product photo and you want to sell that product. You want to enhance the product not distract from it. The eye should be guided from the edges of the photo to the subject matter, i.e. the pen. Let nothing stand in the way of this. Not shadows or any props. If a stand or some type of brace is needed to establish a certain angle or to eliminate a shadow or some other minor defect then make that brace as unobtrusive as possible. Remember the background is important too, keep it plain and simple. The last thing you want is someone looking and thinking â€œoh that a lovely shell, or gee a nice colored sky", if they do that your photography has let you down. If you use any background or props it should lead the eyes to the subject matter and hold it there.  Less is better..........


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## fernhills

Hi, well it is probably because we are new to penturning,new to the web,new to e-bay new as to how to market products,hang on now we will get there in time,Regards, Carl


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## Ligget

Tom I have read your post, and wonder why you have no pen pictures in your album just a photo of sanding disks. lol

If I use a prop it`s to lift an edge of the pen rather than it lying flat on a plain background, also some props can help bring out the true colour of the pen being photographed. []


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## txbatons

I agree with what you're saying, but I had a problem photographing the pens that don't have caps (almost all of the "capped" pens use the cap as a prop). I was forced to use some type of prop, so I found something that I had handy that allows me to get a good angle and complements the pens...or at least in my opinion.

Plus, I've made the decision to use the same prop in all the photos so after looking at a few of the pens, the prop becomes just that, a background prop, leaving the eyes to look at the pens. If there was a different color or different item in each pic, I think the viewer would be much more distracted.

pen without a prop - please disregard the other obvious problem of camera angle and perspective 






same pen with my prop. 




I chose this piece of wood because: A) it's wood B) it has the same angle and line as the pens, and C) I can pose the pen in the manner in which the pen will be used


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## pilot1022

To answer some questions. 
I dont post photos of my work here due to the fact its hard for me to set up the lights and camera and backdrops because of health problems I take very few photos any more, as I was a photographer for many years and just burn out , oh the family and grand kids get the shutter bug treatment but thats about all. And yes I do shoot some of the wood I sell here but that just a quickie shot. 

The shots with a wood log in them are nice photos but again the eyes are pulled away for the pen, to the interesting pattern of the wood log. For a wood pen use a very plain non wood prop, a clear plastic block is fine or a piece of light colored material bunch up to support the pen would do, using the pen cap is a good way to go , the prop and subject are the same. I find the photos posted here are very good shots and I see much time and effort has gone in to the set design, and in a portfolio they would be outstanding, but in a product selling environment,I would have to rate them low. Please dont take offence at my opinions just trying to share my knowledge to help you make better photos.
Thanks


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## LEAP

Just curious but by using props catalogs sell clothing that is photographed with people wearing them, cars are shown driving down a road, furniture is shown in a room with windows fire places pictures on the wall, etc. Hell if it were not for "props" the entire modeling industry would disappear. I agree that some props and backgrounds take away from the photo, I'm quite guilty of poorly composed photos, but if a pen is shown in an attractive setting that is pleasing to the eye I do not see where it detracts from the pen at all.


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## Fred

Opinions each and everyone. We all have them and hopefully always will. Photographs are an attempt to display one's product, and the use of a background - IMHO - helps to break the monotony of just a plain area behind the product.

I definitely agree in that one's use of a background should always be to highlight the product. Many folks use what is at hand and do not "look" at their creation as much as they should. For instance, a white pen on a white background is grossly wrong in that the pen would be lost in the shot. But, a white pen on a darker background would 'stand out' and be very noticeable.

It's all a matter of choice in the mind's eye of the photographer, but many times the shot could be improved upon by simply paying attention to what is seen through the viewfinder of the camera. After making the photograph ask a friend or family member what they think, make corrections if necessary, and THEN post the photograph. Then sit back and listen to the 'opinions' of everyone viewing you work.

If we were all perfect it would definitely be a very boring world to live in. []


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## pilot1022

Leap, you are right, people wareing clothes, cars on the road, etc, if you buy this dress on this thin model, you too will look sexy, if you buy this fast car, spinning its wheels in the sand, you too can get get that sexy girl, its advertising, not photography. The pen on the log did looked better then on the paper towel, BUT the wood log looked better then the pen. I was counting the ridges on the log not looking at the pen. The way you make the photo depends on the subject. If I want to sell a dress I would put it on a sexy model, a car, drive it on a beach, a pen, put it on a unobtrusive stand, use every adventage to sell the PEN not the prop.
A special note: to Txbatons, I am not knocking the pen, its great and the photo,is good but at times the photographer gets to personal with the subject after all you made this great looking pen, and have this great looking log you got, so........ put the two together and presto! I say to all photographers, just be a bit more objective when you make that photo for showing your work to sell. If it's for the art of the photo I say go for it. Again thanks


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## pilot1022

Txbatons, In looking at the photo, it is a very good art photo. If I had shot that I would be very proud of it and enter it a some photo contest. A good study on light and lines. []


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## pilot1022

> _Originally posted by pilot1022_
> <br />Txbatons, In looking at the photo, it is a very good art photo. If I had shot that I would be very proud of it and enter it a  photo contest. A good study on light and lines. []


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## txbatons

No offense taken by any comments. If anything, I'd appreciate the help in getting it right! 

But some of your comments help support my point. A lot of us like to think of our pens and other projects as an artistic endeavor with a chance for economic gain, if for no other reason than to help offset the hobby's cost. By looking at someone's photo of... "photos posted here are very good shots and I see much time and effort has gone in to the set design,..." I tend to think that they probably spent just as much or more time actually creating the pen. A sterile catalog of pen after pen set in a generic way might make the experience less warm and inviting. 

Now...for those pens that I'd like to sell on a website, I will work on your suggestions and see if it makes a difference. And may even get you to critique them for me!

I wonder how much photo contest prizes pay? []


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## DCBluesman

If you are looking to display your pen for constructive criticism of the article itself, avoid the frills and artistic photo and post it in Show Off Your Pens.  If you are looking for feedback on art- or catalog-shots, jazz it up and put ask for comments in the Pen Photography forum.  Seems like a simple solution. [8D]


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## txbatons

Nope. I wasn't asking for criticism. The topic here is whether props and other items are needed in photos of pens for sale. I just included those two photos as a way to make a point. I know there's other forums for critiques.


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## Dario

Tom,

As with anything, there is the "personal preference" factor.  

There is no right or wrong way, some want it with props some don't...do what makes you happy (and what you think is right) but RESPECT what others want/prefer.


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## leehljp

Personal Preferences as Dario said. Old Griz used to post photo's with a background of hand written letters or postcards and it was very effective into bringing me into the picture. Good backgrounds draw people to purchase things that they would otherwise ignore. Whether it be plain and unobtrusive or something that draws you in at first and then lets the main point (the pen) be given a chance to be seen.

Pilot: _The pen on the log did looked better then on the paper towel, BUT the wood log looked better then the pen. _

What it the purpose? To SELL! Some (many?) people will not give most plain background but beautiful pens a second look. A good background draws their attention. The pen has more of a chance to sell in these cases. That is a part of salesmanship. Knowing your target group and using what attracts best. Remember, background props might distract to you, so you have to ask, am I targeting these for sale to myself or to others?

Too much makes for busy backgrounds and distracts. But beautiful backgrounds draw the customer in - in many many cases and create sales. 

Related: Many of the turners here say that their own personal style and pen are no where near their best sellers. Just because something may be somewhat distracting to you may not be what the customer thinks , so go with what works best for your purpose - whether it be personal esthetics, selective clientele, or straight sales.


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## gerryr

This sounds like another one of those rants like "Why would you put a finish on the wood?"  Everyone here has their own personal preferences and style, why isn't that good enough for you?  It seems to me that you prefer to criticize what others are doing, first the finish and now the photo background.  What's next?


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## pilot1022

I am just offering my views on a subject I know very much about. Some here can take it in the spirit it was given. Some can not....... well so be it. And then some just like to complain and nit pick about others views or ideas or the way they might spell a word......... well so be it.......


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## wdcav1952

Tom,

When you say that due to health reasons you cannot set up the camera, lights, back drop, etc., I find that telling.  Most of us do not have the equipment you apparently do.  I dare say the majority here use simple photo boxes bought on Ebay or homemade.

Why don't you consider doing a tutorial on photographing pens?  It will give you something to do, and would be a learning experience for many of us.  Understand, it would have to be tailored to the average photographer.  I for one, would not consider buying $$$$$$$ worth of equipment to be a pro; I simply desire to take shots of my work that will help to sell it.

I am afraid that if you only wish to stand aside and critique, you will continue to receive negative comments since some of your comments could certainly be construed as negative.  I would love to see you turn this thread into a positive learning experience for rookie photographers like me.

FWIW,


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## Dario

> _Originally posted by pilot1022_
> <br />I am just offering my views on a subject I know very much about. Some here can take it in the spirit it was given. Some can not....... well so be it. And then some just like to complain and nit pick about others views or ideas or the way they might spell a word......... well so be it.......



Your title "Why do you insist?" is not offering your views rather very critical.  Read your post with an open mind and see how it conveys.  The way it came to me is not offering a view, rather shooting everyone who does it contrary to yours.

I will admit you have a point and you might be surprised to know that some (or a lot) know that before hand but still prefer it the way they do it.

Note too that most of us are here for the hobby of making pens (not as photographers).  Some cannot even afford a descent camera much so an expensive setup.   

It would also help if you can support your know how with descent photos and not just a picture of sanding discs (that is not exceptional either).  Not a shot at you but if you wow us with your pics then maybe your credibility on the subject matter will increase tremendously.  Even if you do prove you are the greatest photographer...please keep it to sharing and leave us the option of making our own choice (right or wrong).

Thank you.


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## gerryr

People who come on here and criticize what others are doing or how they do it without showing us that they have some knowledge of the subject are unlikely to get a warm reception.  You have come across here as your way is the right way and anyone who doesn't do it that way is completely wrong.  If you have something constructive to offer, that's great, but you need to have some proof to back up your proclamation of expertise.  And, I'm sorry, but I don't buy the line that your health prevents you from setting up the small amount of equipment necessary to photograph a pen.  You posted pens on WWA Info Exchange, so as far as I'm concerned that's a smokescreen.

As far Amboyna, look it up.  You spell it incorrectly.


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## Brewmeister35

Thanks for the ideas and input pilot.  I've been trying to come up with ideas for a prop just to lift the back of the pen up to get a better angle.  It makes a lot of sense to use a prop for showing off rather than selling.  I'd like to build a nice portfolio to display at shows as well as an attractive web page for selling.  Now to just come up with an idea for something clear...

It is rather amusing how some people here are so easily offended when you offer your own expertise on a subject that differs from their opinion.  I also agree however, that your first post did sort of come across like you were bashing people who use props.  Perhaps as Cav suggested above, maybe you could find a little time to do a little tutorial on lighting/angles and whatever to help make us better photographers?  I am very critical of everything I do and always welcome input and photography actually is a very important part of selling these pens.

David


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## Brewmeister35

Matter of fact, I just clicked on Dario's site and it's a perfect example.  The pen on the first page is attractive and draws the eyes right to the picture.  Click on his gallery and you see pens for sale in a way that lets you focus on just the pens.  That's what I would want to see if I was shopping for pens.


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## IPD_Mrs

> _Originally posted by gerryr_
> <br />People who come on here and criticize what others are doing or how they do it without showing us that they have some knowledge of the subject are unlikely to get a warm reception.  You have come across here as your way is the right way and anyone who doesn't do it that way is completely wrong.  If you have something constructive to offer, that's great, but you need to have some proof to back up your proclamation of expertise.  And, I'm sorry, but I don't buy the line that your health prevents you from setting up the small amount of equipment necessary to photograph a pen.  You posted pens on WWA Info Exchange, so as far as I'm concerned that's a smokescreen.
> 
> As far Amboyna, look it up.  You spell it incorrectly.




I don't normally jump on a bandwagon when there is bashing going around but I really have to give an "Amen Brother" to Gerry.  The original post along with the subject comes across very brash. Bing of curious nature, I along with many others on here clicked on Pilot's photo link expecting to see some really great photos.  I think the very subject line itself lends towards someone wanting to pick a my way only fight.

Oh and by the way, Dario's home page photo ROCKS!  Ooooo I made a funny.  
Pun intended all rights reserved and not ment for duplication see terms and conditions for more details.


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## pilot1022

I would be most happy to give a tutorial on product and or portfolio
photography on a one to one basis. This is due to the very wide range of situtions that accure in photography. If you are interested send a photo and your question or problem to my email address Pilot1022@aol.com


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## Ligget

Here is one of your pens, photographed for the IAP forum, guess what it`s on a prop![]
http://www.penturners.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=24171
Address book really makes the pen much nicer looking![}]


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## pilot1022

I didnt say NOT to use a prop  I said "If a stand or some type of brace is needed to establish a certain angle or to eliminate a shadow or some other minor defect then make that brace as <b>unobtrusive </b>as possible."You want to enhance the product not <b>distract </b>from it.The address book is unobtrusive and does enhance the pen. It draws the eyes to the pen.


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## gerryr

I guess it all depends on your perspective and who's using the prop.


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## skiprat

It really is a nice address book though......[}][]


Just teasing you Tom, I have no axe to grind with you[8D] My pics are rubbish, so how about doing a tutorial on close up things like pens for us. Just keep the lingo in laymans terms and remember we're on a budget.  Maybe if you can show us a trick or two with cameras then the guys here can show you how to make a really proper pen.[]


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## wdcav1952

> _Originally posted by pilot1022_
> <br />I would be most happy to give a tutorial on product and or portfolio
> photography on a one to one basis. This is due to the very wide range of situtions that accure in photography. If you are interested send a photo and your question or problem to my email address Pilot1022@aol.com



I thought I was trying to help, and perhaps that you would like to help the site.  Please ignore my previous post.


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## OKLAHOMAN

About as good excuse as any. Thank goodness Don Ward,James Fanger, Curtis Seebeck and A hoast of others didn't have the same mindset, as just about anything in life has more than one way to do it.
quote]_Originally posted by wdcav1952_
<br />





> _Originally posted by pilot1022_
> <br />I would be most happy to give a tutorial on product and or portfolio
> photography on a one to one basis. This is due to the very wide range of situtions that accure in photography. If you are interested send a photo and your question or problem to my email address Pilot1022@aol.com



I thought I was trying to help, and perhaps that you would like to help the site.  Please ignore my previous post.
[/quote]


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## pilot1022

Skiprat, here is a photo I took in 1984 it,s Ektchrome Slide 160 speed. There is a photograghy lesson here ,  can you tell me how I got the photograph?  Taken July 4 1984 at Edwards with a nikon camera and a 210 doubled zoom. Its not trick photography. And no darkroom magic.



<br />Yes, that's the Challenger


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## rd_ab_penman

> _Originally posted by pilot1022_
> <br />Skiprat, here is a photo I took in 1984 it,s Ektchrome Slide 160 speed. There is a photograghy lesson here ,  can you tell me how I got the photograph?  Taken July 4 1984 at Edwards with a nikon camera and a 210 doubled zoom. Its not trick photography. And no darkroom magic.
> 
> 
> 
> <br />Yes, that's the Challenger




Strangest picture of a Pen I have ever seen!!


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## pilot1022

OH I forgot to tell you I was on the ground at the time.


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## Dario

My ex-boss took a similar pic and he displays the picture in his office.  It was taken on a highway while the shuttle was being transported.  They landed in San Antonio for emergency no expertice involved...just luck and timing.  He is not a professional photographer but his pic is much sharper than yours. []


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## edman2

Ok, Tom, I'll bite![]  What's the lesson and how did you do it?


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## gerryr

I can hardly wait for the lesson.


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## Rifleman1776

Pilot, that Challenger photgraph is great and must have been an exciting moment for you. Presumably, you were in a chase airplane.

As for the premise of this thread, I disagree. Props can make the photo more attractive and help tell a story. If misused they can detract. As for difficulty in taking pictures, I regret that you have health problems. But, you do seem fit enough to turn pens and post here. As a former professional photographer myself, I find it difficult to understand why simple pictures of small still-life would be too challenging for you. BTW, most of my pen pictures are taken outside my shop. I lay them on a rock and snap. Others are taken inside with natural light, sometimes I'll hit with the flash. I don't even have a light tent. A tent is on the 'to do' list.


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## pilot1022

The shuttle photo was done this way. Itâ€™s all a matter of angles, just like in pen, photography; I used the shuttle photo as an example. The pilot of the piggy back craft did a fly-by of Edwards, due to the Presidentâ€™s visit that day and in a large banking turn with the wing angle at approximately 30 degrees down, pointing to the ground. I was on the roof of a motor home shooting at a 30 degree up angle, so when you print the photograph the aircraft appears to be in level flight. 

When doing pens remember the angles. Many times I hear the complaint the center band is in focus but the top or the tip end of the pen is out of focus.  Remember when you use a prop to support the pen at a attractive angle for the photo the cap and the tip can be as much 5 inches away from each other, you focus at the center band and now the ends of the pen are out of the depth of field, hence out of focus.  Plus now you got some shadows and a reflective highlight mark running down the barrel of your pen. 

 The solution to this problem is two (2) fold and easy and cheap: use a higher DOF (depth of field) on your camera. Open the lens high as you can go f16 or f22 that will solve the focus problem. But now you have a lighting problem with the lens aperture very small the camera is not getting enough light to make a good exposure. Flood the camera with light, tons of it.  To solve the lighting problem build a light box. You will have the proper amount of light and also solve the problem of shadows and the nasty reflective highlight mark running down the barrel of your pen. 

 I found a great link to build a home made light box on the cheap and it works very well. It takes about Â½ hour of your time and 10-15 dollars or just about 7pounds for the UK friends. This should improve your pen photography a good deal.  The rest is up to you.
(long scroll down to get to parts list)

www.studiolighting.net/homemade-light-box-for-product-photography/


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