# Shipping COST???



## GPDMTR25 (Oct 19, 2009)

OK shipping Rant…..What’s up these days with company shipping rates? I went to Bear tooth woods to purchase three pen kits, shipping was almost 7.00. I went to HUT products to purchase 10 dome pen clips, shipping 7.99….I was on another site to purchase 25.00 worth of small storage containers, shipping 11.99..YES 11.99!!. What ever happened to first class 2.20….Even if a company uses Priority Mail then the most it should be for these items is 4.80. What’s up with the extra amount….Handling?? But isn’t that what an Internet site is suppose to do, sell things. Isn’t that their job to mail it so why the handling price. Needless to say I didn’t purchase any of the above items. I’ll wait for free shipping, or at least reasonable shipping from another site.  

I’m I going crazy. What to you all think about these shipping rates?


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## DCBluesman (Oct 19, 2009)

As a seller, both wholesale and retail, I do charge a small handling fee.  It is based on the order, rather than adding the estimated cost to each piece.  The handling fee covers things like bubble wrap, mailing labels, tape, etc.  I could increase my prices, but I feel that the handling charge should be based on the order rather than the cost of the merchandise.


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## leehljp (Oct 19, 2009)

I am giving a comment on something that I know "used to be" but not certain now.

My hometown is near Memphis, TN and I watched the birth of FedEx and into what it is today. Several times when back home, I needed to send a small package and even mail to Japan as fast as possible. It was an arm and a leg almost 15 years ago. Seems like $15 to $25 if I remember correctly. But at the same time I was receiving items here in Japan at a considerably cheaper rate through FedEx than the smaller items that I wanted to send. 

When I began to explore this, I found out was that volume plus competition, instead of universal set rates. Where there was competition, the price was cheaper. AS to USPS, my small home town PO refused to do certain priority mail packaging to Japan. Either regular air mail package or go to another post office in another town. 

Then there are the small companies that refuse to send regular mail because of it being untrackable. Never mind being insured, as a claim usually takes weeks to be recovered. The lost package often ended in a lost customer. Then there are the few costumers who will claim they did not get something that they in fact did, but since it was untraceable, customer service from the company reshipped and lost money.

If I were in business, I would NOT ship unless it was traceable, trackable and insured. My local (neighborhood) post office here in Toyota several times has refused to let me send a package to the States in normal Air Mail. I was required to send it in a trackable form. I think that is wrong, but sometimes you can't argue and get away with it!


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## wdcav1952 (Oct 19, 2009)

GPDMTR25 said:


> OK shipping Rant…..What’s up these days with company shipping rates? I went to Bear tooth woods to purchase three pen kits, shipping was almost 7.00. I went to HUT products to purchase 10 dome pen clips, shipping 7.99….I was on another site to purchase 25.00 worth of small storage containers, shipping 11.99..YES 11.99!!. What ever happened to first class 2.20….Even if a company uses Priority Mail then the most it should be for these items is 4.80. What’s up with the extra amount….Handling?? But isn’t that what an Internet site is suppose to do, sell things. Isn’t that their job to mail it so why the handling price. Needless to say I didn’t purchase any of the above items. I’ll wait for free shipping, or at least reasonable shipping from another site.
> 
> I’m I going crazy. What to you all think about these shipping rates?




Before venting your spleen on vendors, two of three by name, did you take the time to email the vendor and ask if alternative shipping was available?  If not, I would suggest you do so before making such a post.


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## IPD_Mrs (Oct 19, 2009)

You obviously have never been on the other side of mail order. Here is the deal.

Once you place your order someone has to pull it off of the internet shopping cart. Depending on the software all of your order has to be typed into an accounting software. Then someone has to pull your order while another person verifies and packs that order. From there your order will go into one of several different shipping programs based on the type of shipping you requested. If they are lucky and you as a customer request priority mail and the business does not have to pay for the box, but of course you want $2.20 first class so now there is that added expense to ship to you. There is tape, bubble wrap and peanuts as well. If the company has efficent employees, the process will take 15 minutes once you place your order. At minumum wage there is a couple of bucks, but wait we have to throw in a little thing called bennifits as well as the businesses portion of SS collections.

Now if you don't want to pay for that service, you just jump in your car and drive right over to the company and pick it up. What, you bought from the place with the best price and they do not have a walk-in option because they operate out of an industrial park because retail space is so expensive and they want to be competative?

If you have not figure it out by this point let me help you, $7.00 shipping is a pretty damn good deal.

Now my vent is over.


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## NewLondon88 (Oct 19, 2009)

I can see this from both sides. I know there is handling to be done.. and there's the
tape, the boxes, envelopes, etc. I don't expect to pay just what they pay the post
office. I ship my molds by flat rate even though it might be a little bit less via parcel
post or first class, but then I'd have to go buy the boxes too. Maybe the big companies
have their mail picked up for them, but for me it means packing up and going to the
post office. I don't charge for that stuff, but I could. And it doesn't surprise me or
bother me when other companies do. I understand it.

But I was going to buy some silicone fluid yesterday and it was $9.45 shipping for a
pint bottle that cost $18. And this was a bottle that would go in a box that they were
already shipping to me. I had to pass on it.

I could have called them to ask, but that would mean delaying the rest of my order
for another day .. or sending it by itself later on (which would be a separate box and
the same shipping price) Sometimes it rolls our way .. and sometimes not.


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## jleiwig (Oct 19, 2009)

GPDMTR25 said:


> OK shipping Rant…..What’s up these days with company shipping rates? I went to Bear tooth woods to purchase three pen kits, shipping was almost 7.00. I went to HUT products to purchase 10 dome pen clips, shipping 7.99….I was on another site to purchase 25.00 worth of small storage containers, shipping 11.99..YES 11.99!!. What ever happened to first class 2.20….Even if a company uses Priority Mail then the most it should be for these items is 4.80. What’s up with the extra amount….Handling?? But isn’t that what an Internet site is suppose to do, sell things. Isn’t that their job to mail it so why the handling price. Needless to say I didn’t purchase any of the above items. I’ll wait for free shipping, or at least reasonable shipping from another site.
> 
> I’m I going crazy. What to you all think about these shipping rates?


 
It's not their job to mail things.  Their job is to sell things.  They could charge you actual price for shipping.  

Do you have any idea what a cardboard box costs?  A 12x12x12 cardboard box costs around .60 each wholesale, and that's only if you buy in lots of 1000 at a time, plus tape, plus peanuts or bubble wrap, plus the shipping labels, plus the printer and computer wear and tear to print out the label so on and so forth.  That doesn't even include value added time.  

Your choice is either to order some place that you can pick up or order enough quantity that $7.00 seems insignificant.


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## TomW (Oct 19, 2009)

wdcav1952 said:


> Before venting your spleen on vendors, two of three by name, did you take the time to email the vendor and ask if alternative shipping was available? If not, I would suggest you do so before making such a post.


 

I dont agree with this.  He posted facts.  Why should he go out of his way?  The vendor lost the sale because the CUSTOMER was not satisifed with the service.  Pure and simple.
Tom


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## traderdon55 (Oct 19, 2009)

When a company puts up a website to sell items to be shipped they are in business to ship as well as sell items. They know they are going to have the expense of packing items to ship and I feel that they should factor that into their pricing and just charge what the shipping actually costs. I find the best way to deal with companies charging high shipping and handling costs is just don't do business with them. Instead of just complaining on here do like I do and let them know you would like to do business with them but will not because of their handling charges. It has never done any good but it makes me feel better to let them know how I feel. There are many good companies out there to deal with that will not gouge you on shipping. One of my favorites is Wood-N-Whimsies because if they can get your order in a flat rate envelope thats all you pay for.


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## george (Oct 19, 2009)

GPDMTR25 said:


> OK shipping Rant…..What’s up these days with company shipping rates? I went to Bear tooth woods to purchase three pen kits, shipping was almost 7.00. I went to HUT products to purchase 10 dome pen clips, shipping 7.99….I was on another site to purchase 25.00 worth of small storage containers, shipping 11.99..YES 11.99!!. What ever happened to first class 2.20….Even if a company uses Priority Mail then the most it should be for these items is 4.80.
> 
> I’m I going crazy. What to you all think about these shipping rates?




I pay for delivery from CSUSA to Europe about 100 $ per delivery. IF I buy 20 kits, it is reasonable. For 1 or 2 kits - not so much.
It must be quite good to be able te get any kit you want for few $.


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## Greg O'Sherwood (Oct 19, 2009)

To be honest, the shipping is worth the savings to me. I have a PSI dealer about 1 mile from my house and a Woodcraft just a few miles farther. I could buy from them to avoid shipping costs, but I've found that their prices are MUCH higher for the same kits even without shipping. I guess the local vendors have to pay shipping to get the items in their store, eh? Add the facility costs and it gets way up there.

I still support my local vendors by buying hardwoods and tools. I don't want them disappearing.

Online vendors do a decent job, some are great.


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## dogcatcher (Oct 19, 2009)

If you buy just a few items each time you order instead of buying larger quantities you are just cheating yourself.  Most of the time the first item you buy absorbs all of the related packing and handling costs.  The shipping on everything else on an order is based on the added weight of the items ordered.


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## Tuba707 (Oct 19, 2009)

GPDMTR25 said:


> OK shipping Rant…..What’s up these days with company shipping rates? I went to Bear tooth woods to purchase three pen kits, shipping was almost 7.00. I went to HUT products to purchase 10 dome pen clips, shipping 7.99….I was on another site to purchase 25.00 worth of small storage containers, shipping 11.99..YES 11.99!!. What ever happened to first class 2.20….Even if a company uses Priority Mail then the most it should be for these items is 4.80. What’s up with the extra amount….Handling?? But isn’t that what an Internet site is suppose to do, sell things. Isn’t that their job to mail it so why the handling price. Needless to say I didn’t purchase any of the above items. I’ll wait for free shipping, or at least reasonable shipping from another site.
> 
> I’m I going crazy. What to you all think about these shipping rates?



It doesn't sound like you have ever worked from the business side of things.  All of the time and effort it takes to pull, pack, label, and ship is significant.  They can either a) make a profit or b)go out of business.  I guarantee you Ernie is not making money off of the shipping.  

Yes, it is part of their "job" to mail it, obviously.  Do you do part of your job for free? :-\



TomW said:


> I dont agree with this.  He posted facts.  Why should he go out of his way?  The vendor lost the sale because the CUSTOMER was not satisifed with the service.  Pure and simple.
> Tom



The customer was not satisfied with the price, not the service.  Two different things.  Good service often comes at a higher price.

Granted, I am sure that some establishments aim to make some money off the shipping.  If it is disclosed, however, there is no shame in that.  A business has to turn a profit.  Shipping costs are not going to get any cheaper.  Your alternative is to drive somewhere and buy in person (also not cheap =))

Many places, like Bear Tooth, have a minimum shipping rate, so if you had bought 50 pen kits, it probably still would have been 7.00 to ship.  I would bet if you asked Ernie about an alternative with a shipment that small and light, he might be able to accommodate you.


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## TomW (Oct 19, 2009)

Tuba707 said:


> The customer was not satisfied with the price, not the service. Two different things. Good service often comes at a higher price.


 
No, the customer was dissatisfied with the service.  Hiding the shipping/handling until late in the transaction is poor service.... 

Can you enlighten me about a place where "good service comes at a higher price"?  There are lots of places (especially here at IAP) where the best service comes with good prices.

Tom


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## Tuba707 (Oct 19, 2009)

TomW said:


> No, the customer was dissatisfied with the service.  Hiding the shipping/handling until late in the transaction is poor service....
> 
> Can you enlighten me about a place where "good service comes at a higher price"?  There are lots of places (especially here at IAP) where the best service comes with good prices.
> 
> Tom



He didn't order or even interact with them, so I don't believe that it counts as service.  There was no transaction or communication between potential customer and the companies.

If you go to Wal-Mart, walk around and look at some items, then decide the prices are higher than you want to pay and leave, would you consider that poor customer service on Wal-Marts part?

Shipping cannot be accurately determined until the items have been through the checkout process - hence shipping charges always occuring later in the process.  This is normal and necessary.

As far as good service and higher prices, it happens all around.  I know of several local landscapers that are very cheap but do a poor job.  I know of a few others that are quite expensive and do an excellent job and will come back as many times as necessary to get things "just right" for the customer.  High price does not necessarily equal better service, but great service always comes at a higher cost, or the business will not be profitable.  

The IAP has some great vendors who have good service at a good price, you are right.  But they are still making money, so its a good price for them too.  I never said all good service is expensive =)  We are fortunate enough here to get both, but that isn't often the case across the board.  I think there are just a lot of variables that you are not considering. I promise that if you ever go into business for yourself, your perspective will change a bit! =)


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## NewLondon88 (Oct 19, 2009)

traderdon55 said:


> I find the best way to deal with companies charging high shipping and handling costs is just don't do business with them. Instead of just complaining on here do like I do and let them know you would like to do business with them but will not because of their handling charges. It has never done any good but it makes me feel better to let them know how I feel.



Well, this doesn't seem like it accomplishes much..


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## IPD_Mrs (Oct 19, 2009)

traderdon55 said:


> I feel that they should factor that into their pricing and just charge what the shipping actually costs.


 
So instead of an order total of $19.95 plus $7.00 shipping, you would be the type to pay $30.00 and free shipping.

The main problem is customers and business look at the cost of shipping in two different ways.  One thinks of what UPS or USPS collect and the other thinks of the total cost including overhead.  You cannot factor in shipping to the cost of the product because not every order is the same.  If one order is $20 and another order is 10 items at $20 and you figure shipping costs into the product price who do you think gets the short end of the stick?


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## ed4copies (Oct 19, 2009)

This topic forces you to think like a business owner.

FUN, isn't it???

No matter WHAT you do, there IS a downside.

BTW, those who think it should be EXACT, ACTUAL cost--- that software costs money, too and takes a more sophisticated website to support it, which costs money.  Where should those costs be allocated?  Into the product or into the shipping?

This is a SERIOUS question, Dawn and I have kicked it around for several months, we lose a TON on shipping, but don't like ANY of the alternatives.


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## IPD_Mrs (Oct 19, 2009)

It is real simple Ed. Even if they lived 30min from you and they drove to pick up the order it would cost more than the shipping you charge. Then add to that how much the Kringle would cost because you CAN'T go to Racine without stopping for a Kringle!!!!

Dawn you can also add a service charge for the privlidge of being waited on by you.  If Ed waits on them they get a discount!


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## maxwell_smart007 (Oct 19, 2009)

Perhaps what you need is perspective...try getting ANYTHING shipped across a border, and see how much you'll be paying then...One certainly is more careful about impulse purchases when it'll cost 20 dollars to get a small package shipped!  

I'm a bit concerned about the negative publicity you're heaping on our vendors, when all they're doing is charging the posted price for shipping.  If you wanted a different option, you should have contacted them in advance to discuss it rather than publicly complaining about it after the fact.  

Ernie at Beartooth uses a computer program that estimates the cost of shipping.  It could be that your order wouldn't have been charged that rate.  We don't know, because you didn't contact him...

I'd bet that if you contacted the suppliers directly with your small order and concerns about shipping, and were reasonable and polite, you'd get a lot better response than if you just complain after the fact.  (or without ordering, in this case)...

Just my opinion...

Andrew


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## ngeb528 (Oct 19, 2009)

ed4copies said:


> This is a SERIOUS question, Dawn and I have kicked it around for several months, we lose a TON on shipping, but don't like ANY of the alternatives.


 
What?? You're not willing to deliver each and every package personally without charging extra.  Boy, some customer service you have:tongue::wink::biggrin:


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## jkeithrussell (Oct 19, 2009)

Tuba707 said:


> If you go to Wal-Mart, walk around and look at some items, then decide the prices are higher than you want to pay and leave, would you consider that poor customer service on Wal-Marts part?


 
To make the analogy correct, you would need to select an item based on price, go to the checkout, and then have a handling or processing fee applied. 

The price of goods should include the cost to the business of selling the goods. All businesses have costs, and all businesses have to figure out a selling price that takes all costs into account. You can choose to charge more for the product, or to use add-on charges like handling fees. You make your choice, and the customer gets to make his choice -- whether to pay it or go elsewhere. 

I don't think you can fault those vendors for charging the fees. You just decide whether to pay them or not, and that's the end of the story.


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## TomW (Oct 19, 2009)

jkeithrussell said:


> and that's the end of the story.


 
Well said!

Tom


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## dogcatcher (Oct 19, 2009)

The Walmart analogy does not account for the time you spent or the expense of getting there, if it takes an hour to go and buy locally, that is an hour I have lost from my productivity.  Then there is the mileage factor to consider.  In some cases it is cheaper to order online and pay shipping than drive to the local source.


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## ed4copies (Oct 19, 2009)

Guy got shot in Wal_Mart's parking lot last week (really).  Do we factor this into the calculation?  I did, I didn't stop there, that day.


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## traderdon55 (Oct 19, 2009)

MLKWoodWorking said:


> So instead of an order total of $19.95 plus $7.00 shipping, you would be the type to pay $30.00 and free shipping.
> 
> The main problem is customers and business look at the cost of shipping in two different ways.  One thinks of what UPS or USPS collect and the other thinks of the total cost including overhead.  You cannot factor in shipping to the cost of the product because not every order is the same.  If one order is $20 and another order is 10 items at $20 and you figure shipping costs into the product price who do you think gets the short end of the stick?



No where did I say I wanted shipping included in the price, I just said I felt the overhead of labor and shipping supplies should be factored into the price and we should only be charged actual shipping costs. I realize it is cheaper to pack 10 of an item instead of 1 and in that case many places offer a cheaper price when you buy larger quanities. Not everyone agrees and I believe everyone is entitled to their own opinion. The original post asked what we thought and I just gave my opinion.A lot of people don't mind the handling charges or a lot of companies would be out of business. I just choose not to pay them. The companies have the right to charge them or not,just as we have the right to buy from them and pay their charges or not buy from them. Thats the nice thing about this great country we live in, we all have the right to state our own opinion and make our own choices!


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## Tuba707 (Oct 19, 2009)

jkeithrussell said:


> To make the analogy correct, you would need to select an item based on price, go to the checkout, and then have a handling or processing fee applied.
> 
> The price of goods should include the cost to the business of selling the goods. All businesses have costs, and all businesses have to figure out a selling price that takes all costs into account. You can choose to charge more for the product, or to use add-on charges like handling fees. You make your choice, and the customer gets to make his choice -- whether to pay it or go elsewhere.
> 
> I don't think you can fault those vendors for charging the fees. You just decide whether to pay them or not, and that's the end of the story.



So every analogy breaks down at some point, I understand that =) It wasn't meant to be equivalent on every variable.  The point was that, *with no interaction OR transaction, you cannot claim "poor customer service", or any type of customer service for that matter.*


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## keithkarl2007 (Oct 19, 2009)

3 panache kits from Rockler were going to cost me nearly $40 to send to Ireland. What were they going to do, paddle over? Luckily a friend on the site is helping me out


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## Texatdurango (Oct 19, 2009)

Tuba707 said:


> It doesn't sound like you have ever worked from the business side of things......[/quote]
> My turn.....:biggrin:
> 
> So what does THAT have to do with anything? Do I need to know how to milk a cow before buying a gallon of milk from the local Braums?
> ...


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## MesquiteMan (Oct 19, 2009)

As a seller, I personally do not believe in charging any more than actual shipping.  My shipping policy states that my cart will charge for Small Flat Rate Shipping and that if I can ship for less, I will refund the difference.  Takes just a few seconds extra when printing the shipping label through Paypal to look at what the shipping cost.  After the label is printed, I click on refund and refund the difference.  Done.

As for shipping supplies and other related shipping costs...that is part of the cost of doing business in my opinion.  It is already figured into the cost of my blanks.


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## Tuba707 (Oct 19, 2009)

Texatdurango said:


> Tuba707 said:
> 
> 
> > It doesn't sound like you have ever worked from the business side of things......[/quote]
> ...


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## ed4copies (Oct 19, 2009)

So what does THAT have to do with anything? Do I need to know how to milk a cow before buying a gallon of milk from the local Braums?

No, but you would have a much better idea WHY that gallon costs $3, if you did run a dairy farm!!

And yes, we DO make a profit at exotics.  That was the plan and so far it is on target---somewhat.  At each stage, we also evaluate where the profit is being "eaten" by our inefficiencies (we are NOT a government agency, willing and able to just raise taxes).  Then we try to improve.  Make sense now??


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## Texatdurango (Oct 19, 2009)

MesquiteMan said:


> As a seller, I personally do not believe in charging any more than actual shipping. My shipping policy states that my cart will charge for Small Flat Rate Shipping and that if I can ship for less, I will refund the difference. Takes just a few seconds extra when printing the shipping label through Paypal to look at what the shipping cost. After the label is printed, I click on refund and refund the difference. Done.
> 
> *As for shipping supplies and other related shipping costs...that is part of the cost of doing business in my opinion. It is already figured into the cost of my blanks* .


 
And I think many outfits have it factored into their prices as well, but they have just figured out a way to squeeze a little extra out of their customers.  What's the phrase..... "whatever the traffic will bare?"


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## Tuba707 (Oct 19, 2009)

Texatdurango said:


> And I think many outfits have it factored into their prices as well, but they have just figured out a way to squeeze a little extra out of their customers.  What's the phrase..... "whatever the traffic will bare?"



How do you factor shipping into everyone's orders when they are all different quantities, different items, and shipped to different places?


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## dogcatcher (Oct 19, 2009)

I went and did an order on Beartooth, the shipping is the same if you order one pen or 12.  $6 and change is the flat rate amount for US orders.  Hut ships UPS, and UPS picks up the orders at their place of business.  Their UPS charges are more than reasonable.

Easiest solution is to order in quantity, spread the base cost of shipping over several items.  If you are running a business, you need to run it like a business.  If I ordered 2 or 3 of an item at a time my costs would skyrocket.  I try to order in multiples of 50 at a time.   Shipping for one is $6.95, shipping for 50 or even a 500 is $6.95, good business practices tell me to order as much as I can instead of just what I need this week.


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## wood-of-1kind (Oct 19, 2009)

ed4copies said:


> No, but you would have a much better idea WHY that gallon costs $3, if you did run a dairy farm!!




We pay $3.97(milk) here in TO, but it's all the same. We get dinged with higher shipping costs from USA 'vendors' cause we're Canucks. Guess we deserve it because of our  'different' accent$$$$.:wink::biggrin:


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## Tuba707 (Oct 19, 2009)

wood-of-1kind said:


> We pay $3.97(milk) here in TO, but it's all the same. We get dinged with higher shipping costs from USA 'vendors' cause we're Canucks. Guess we deserve it because of our  'different' accent$$$$.:wink::biggrin:



eh?


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## Texatdurango (Oct 19, 2009)

I'm curious about something.........

When I did my federal taxes last year I entered my pen sales in one area, cost of supplies in another, tool depreciation in another and misc expenses like postage, envelopes. office supplies, etc. in another area.

I wonder where folks put the money they gain from shipping and handling fees, profit or expense or... is it a gray area that's possibly just forgotten?


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## MesquiteMan (Oct 19, 2009)

Tuba707 said:


> How do you factor shipping into everyone's orders when they are all different quantities, different items, and shipped to different places?


 
We are not talking about FREE SHIPPING but rather charging more then the cost of shipping.


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## Tuba707 (Oct 19, 2009)

Texatdurango said:


> I'm curious about something.........
> 
> When I did my federal taxes last year I entered my pen sales in one area, cost of supplies in another, tool depreciation in another and misc expenses like postage, envelopes. office supplies, etc. in another area.
> 
> I wonder where folks put the money they gain from shipping and handling fees, profit or expense or... is it a gray area that's possibly just forgotten?



Any balance beyond actual physical shipping costs (box, packing supplies,shipping) *should* go under sales.  

Employee compensation and driving to drop off packages (if applicable) would then be expenses.

That is what should happen.  It is entirely possible that some businesses (illegally) pad their actual income by listing the full s&h as an expense.


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## Daniel (Oct 19, 2009)

I know that Pay Pal gives you some choices on just how to set up your charges on shipping. I suspect that these options are chosen from common business practices.
You can have a set shipping charge per order, per item, according to the total amount of the order etc. I am pretty sure that most companies do not have a different shipping charge for every item they sell. I also do not think they will calculate shipping for every order (like I do) but will use some sort of scale in which your order falls into some bracket as far as what it will be charged. some of those combos will come up way out of wack.


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## Tuba707 (Oct 19, 2009)

MesquiteMan said:


> We are not talking about FREE SHIPPING but rather charging more then the cost of shipping.



This was the statement I was referring to (by George):



> When companies sell things they include these costs in their pricing structure much as we do when we sell a pen. We don't just charge for the kit and blank, we figure in the costs mentioned above and if shipping is a huge expense, it shoud be factored in as well.



Therefore, if they should be factored in, I am just wondering how that would be done.  Maybe I am misunderstanding the statement, and I apologize if I am.  Feel free to correct my interpretation.

By the way, in the occasional sale of surplus pen blanks that I have on the IAP, I charge $5.00 for the $4.95 priority mail shipping and I don't charge paypal transaction fees.  I don't think its necessary... but its also not a business.  Just want to clarify that I am not arguing from a point of view that would justify something I am doing =)


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## jkeithrussell (Oct 19, 2009)

Tuba707 said:


> That is would should happen. It is entirely possible that some businesses (illegally) pad their actual income by listing the full s&h as an expense.


 
Businesses can't just say something is an expense. They have to produce receipts. If I'm selling pen kits, I can charge you whatever I can get you pay for shipping & handling, but that doesn't mean that I'm going to list the same amount as an expense on my company's taxes.


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## jkeithrussell (Oct 19, 2009)

Tuba707 said:


> Therefore, if they should be factored in, I am just wondering how that would be done. Maybe I am misunderstanding the statement, and I apologize if I am. Feel free to correct my interpretation.


 
All you do is look at your actual costs for shipping and shipping-related supplies and bounce that number against either the total number of orders that you shipped, or the total number of items that you sold, then decide how much you need to recoup by raising prices or assessing a "handling" fee.  It's simple.


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## Tuba707 (Oct 19, 2009)

jkeithrussell said:


> I can't tell whether you have any idea what you are talking about.  Businesses can't just say something is an expense.  They have to produce receipts.  If I'm selling pen kits, I can charge you whatever I can get you pay for shipping & handling, but that doesn't mean that I'm going to list the same amount as an expense on my company's taxes.



I am aware of that... I was saying that business should only claim actual expenses.  

Maybe you should re-read what I posted.


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## Daniel (Oct 19, 2009)

I read more of the comments about just what is claimed as what when it comes to money collected for shipping.

Now I have never been a big company with Employees, warehouseing, office space and personnel, operating equipment like fork lifts and such and whatever.

With all of that there are a lot of costs associated with being able to offer you my item at all. I have to pay my employees even if nothing is being ordered. I also agree that the price I list my items at should cover most of those costs. but shipping is shipping.

so here is the situation I am thinking about. I have a fairly large busy business and I actually pay a full time employee to do nothing put pull pack and ship small orders that are shipped by USPS or UPS. I have worked in a place that had jsut this sort fo set up.

I also have the cost of supplying and maintaining the equipment that this employee needs. Packing table, scales, labels, order print outs, various rate charges. there used to be quite an ordeal in keeping the papaer work correct for UPS, so they have to be trained. various types of printing equipment and supplies, stamps, invoice envelopes, tape dispensors and tape. keep in mind all of this equipment is being used by an employee so the wear and tear will be high. costs such as boxes as few companies that ship a wide range of products would consider restricting themselvs to the boxes supplied by USPS.  I can see how a company is into a couple thousand dollars in costs before they even ship anything.

I do not know if a company has to keep there shipping charges seperate from there sales when it comes to record keeping. or if they ahve to verify that it actually cost them what they charged to ship orders. I think would be pretty hard to do when the cost to ship is not just the bills you paid to the shipper. 

I do have a personal experience at jsut how much employees can cost in regard to losing or breaking equipment. I once went and picked up 25 100 foot extension cords for my brother in law who was a painting contractor. one week later I was helping him and we needed a cord. not one of those 25 cords was stil around. all had been either lost stolen left behind on jobs or ruined. 7 days and several hundred dollars in cords where used up. I asked him about it and he told me he budgeted $25,000 a year just for replacing tools his employees wrecked. Mostly spray gun tips.


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## jkeithrussell (Oct 19, 2009)

Tuba707 said:


> I am aware of that... I was saying that business should only claim actual expenses.
> 
> Maybe you should re-read what I posted.


 
Didn't mean for my post to sound so nasty.  Typing too fast.


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## DCBluesman (Oct 19, 2009)

Texatdurango said:


> I'm curious about something.........
> 
> When I did my federal taxes last year I entered my pen sales in one area, cost of supplies in another, tool depreciation in another and misc expenses like postage, envelopes. office supplies, etc. in another area.
> 
> I wonder where folks put the money they gain from shipping and handling fees, profit or expense or... is it a gray area that's possibly just forgotten?


 
If you are reporting your pen sales and costs on your 1040, your Schedule C (the appropriate place to record this) should list your GROSS RECEIPTS.  Any deductions must be verified as having been paid.  Thus, if I add $7.00 to every order for postage but only spend $4.95, I should report the $7 as income and the $4.95 as expense, with the net effect of adding $2.05 to my taxable income.  If I spend money on tape and packing materials, they may also be deducted as business expenses.  Of course, there may be some folks who cheat on their taxes.


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## Tuba707 (Oct 19, 2009)

jkeithrussell said:


> All you do is look at your actual costs for shipping and shipping-related supplies and bounce that number against either the total number of orders that you shipped, or the total number of items that you sold, then decide how much you need to recoup by raising prices or assessing a "handling" fee.  It's simple.



Yes, that is simple, and it does end up costing consumers that buy low quantities a relatively higher price.  Which may just be what is happening with the aforementioned companies.

-

So is the problem here just when handling is lumped in with shipping?  Or do people not like seeing handling charges at all, and they should be pushed into the price, where the consumer is just not aware of them?


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## Tuba707 (Oct 19, 2009)

jkeithrussell said:


> Didn't mean for my post to sound so nasty.  Typing too fast.



Not a problem - I apologize for not explaining as eloquently as Lou =)


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## Daniel (Oct 19, 2009)

Tuba707 said:


> -
> 
> So is the problem here just when handling is lumped in with shipping?  Or do people not like seeing handling charges at all, and they should be pushed into the price, where the consumer is just not aware of them?



I know people have asked me why I list "Shipping and Postage" to my group buys. Are they not the same thing?

The answer is no they are not.
Shipping is the cost I pay the supplier I order from to get the items to me that is then divided in any number of ways and added to the cost of each individual item.

Postage is what I pay to the post office to get the item from me to you.

Likewise shipping from a supplier I see as the cost a company pays the post office or other to actually take the item to me. handling is what they charge to get it together and ready to be given to the shipper. This by the way is the only real "Work" involved in a group buy. The rest is setting at my computer putting the right info in the right cell of a form and reading message about how much everyone appreciates me. once in a while things get a little twisted and confusing but for the most part the work of a buy is the handling.


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## bobaltig (Oct 19, 2009)

Time is money.  It takes time to package properly.  It takes money to ship - diesel prices are killing truckers these days.  And no matter what they charge for shipping, if you lived in the same area and had to drive say 50 miles round trip, the cost of fuel, wear and tear on your vehicle and your time would exceed what most vendors charge for shipping.  I used to feel just like you do until I started packaging and shipping things.  Now I look on it as a necessary evil in doing business.

Bob


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## wdcav1952 (Oct 19, 2009)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MesquiteMan  
As a seller, I personally do not believe in charging any more than actual shipping. My shipping policy states that my cart will charge for Small Flat Rate Shipping and that if I can ship for less, I will refund the difference. Takes just a few seconds extra when printing the shipping label through Paypal to look at what the shipping cost. After the label is printed, I click on refund and refund the difference. Done.

As for shipping supplies and other related shipping costs...that is part of the cost of doing business in my opinion. It is already figured into the cost of my blanks . 





Texatdurango said:


> And I think many outfits have it factored into their prices as well, but they have just figured out a way to squeeze a little extra out of their customers.  What's the phrase..... "whatever the traffic will bare?"



You mean we have to take our clothes off to buy stuff???? :biggrin:


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## Monty (Oct 19, 2009)

DCBluesman said:


> .......  Of course, there may be some folks who cheat on their taxes.


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## Texatdurango (Oct 19, 2009)

I'm getting dizzy keeping up with all this ........ besides the UPS truck just left me some goodies to play with!


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## IPD_Mrs (Oct 19, 2009)

Someone said, and forgive me as I can't remember who at this point, that the cost of shipping supplies and labor should be figured into the price of the product.  So my question at this point is do the people that do come in and pick up their order pay the same for the merchandise or do I now need two separate prices for every item?  If it is the first option, this means that everyone who purchases at their local Rockler would subsidise the shipping of those who live too far away to come to the store and need it shipped.  
Wow now this looks to me as some sort of shipping welfare.  This is a great idea, whoever came up with it should run for office or something.


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## wdcav1952 (Oct 19, 2009)

Linda had to come up with this last post.  Like Dawn is with Ed, Linda is the brainy one.


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## IPD_Mrs (Oct 19, 2009)

Yes William, Linda is the brainy one as you put it, however I had an Eagle moment there and am quite proud of it!


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## DennisM (Oct 19, 2009)

I think the underlying issue most have isnt with the actual shipping and handleing charges, most will agree that they are needed and a cost we have to deal with.

I think more so it arises from the unsavory ones who add on outragious handling charges. Sometimes its obvious, look at any TV offer, 24.95 plus s/h and then the total is 89.99 for a couple towels! 

That leaves a sour taste in the mouth of consumers and then they will assume that all companies mark up like that.

Having worked in a warehouse as a picker, I can tell you, that multiple orders are often picked at the same time, to reduce cost, but yet each order pays the same handling charge..

fact of business, needs to be included in your TCO for any item. Dont like it, buy retail and then pay a retail markup for the save shipping to the store, and then the overhead at the store...

IE. I can drive to HF and pickup, lets say the 1.5hp DC, 139.99, my local HF is in the highest tax bracket for reatil, 10.5%, so now that is 14.95 tax on the item, I take it home, OR i order online and pay 11.95 shipping, saves 4 bucks, but have to wait for it. 

Now if I figure in time and gas to pickit up, cheaper to ship, but I dont like waiting so I will gladly pay what I call the I need it now, surcharge and go pick it up...


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## traderdon55 (Oct 19, 2009)

MLKWoodWorking said:


> Someone said, and forgive me as I can't remember who at this point, that the cost of shipping supplies and labor should be figured into the price of the product.  So my question at this point is do the people that do come in and pick up their order pay the same for the merchandise or do I now need two separate prices for every item?  If it is the first option, this means that everyone who purchases at their local Rockler would subsidise the shipping of those who live too far away to come to the store and need it shipped.
> Wow now this looks to me as some sort of shipping welfare.  This is a great idea, whoever came up with it should run for office or something.



The people shopping in the stores would not be subsidising the people who have something shipped as I am sure it costs much more to operate a store than it does to pack items to be shipped. As for running for office I would not stand a chance as I prefer to speak my mind as tell people what they want to hear!


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## Mac (Oct 19, 2009)

This post has given me an ideal for a new business;
the company could be called EVERTHING FREE
and offer stuff  as below;
We are now offering free pen kits ,free replacements, free refills, free lathes and any tool you might need, or anything you can think of food ,clothes,cars ,boats and we even pay your bills for you.We do it all ,just pay SHIPPING AND HANDLING.

Everthing has unlimited warranty just call and we will ship out a new one (no pickups everything must be shipped )as we do not have a retail outlet  (help can't speak english and owner is always gone off  buying land  ,towns  ,countries, big box stores (and closing them.)just pay SHIPPING AND HANDLING........
We will even loan you money (WITH COLLATERAL OF COURSE) at 0% interst. just pay SHIPPING AND HANDLING.
If you need something that is not listed we offer that too ,just pay SHIPPING AND HANDLING..


name change 

ANY AND EVERYTHING FREE


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## ed4copies (Oct 19, 2009)

Mac, didn't I exchange e-mails with you last week?  You're in Asia, aren't you???  I remember it sounded like that.


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## Mac (Oct 19, 2009)

ed4copies said:


> Mac, didn't I exchange e-mails with you last week?  You're in Asia, aren't you???  I remember it sounded like that.



yes I'am in asia I am thinking about buying China ,when my new business ideal gets off the ground (thanks to this post.)
Just over here to get a price!!!
While I'm here I might see how much I can get Japan for also.


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## traderdon55 (Oct 19, 2009)

I know Mac posted as a joke but the idea is not original. I have seen companies selling products offering free refills for life,just pay shipping & handling. Of course if you follow up you will find their shipping & handling is about the same as what you originally paid.


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## keandkafu (Oct 19, 2009)

This has been an interesting post trail.  Even got off track a little but....what ticks me off is the handling charge.  When I was growing up and taking college classes in business, these overhead items were considered the "cost of doing business".  Your products price reflected these amounts.  As for driving to the post office, buying the box, buying the tape, all this is overhead and not a profit center.  Charge me the shipping.  Nothing else.  I am one of those weird people who compare what they paid in shipping and what the shipper paid.  UPS and FedEx can be a little difficult because of volume discounts, but if you know somebody inside, you can get that to.  When they charge me more than they paid, I do not return to them for future business.  Thats just my opinion and how I do things.  I do not want to contact the company ahead of time to try to get a better rate, there will always be somebody out there who is hungry and willing to do the correct thing.


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## Chief Hill (Oct 19, 2009)

Pfft that's nothing try shipping in Canada.  All the stupid options they add it's like picking out a cell phone package plan.


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## ed4copies (Oct 19, 2009)

keandkafu said:


> This has been an interesting post trail.  Even got off track a little but....what ticks me off is the handling charge.  When I was growing up and taking college classes in business, these overhead items were considered the "cost of doing business".  Your products price reflected these amounts.  As for driving to the post office, buying the box, buying the tape, all this is overhead and not a profit center.  Charge me the shipping.  Nothing else.  I am one of those weird people who compare what they paid in shipping and what the shipper paid.  UPS and FedEx can be a little difficult because of volume discounts, but if you know somebody inside, you can get that to.  When they charge me more than they paid, I do not return to them for future business.  Thats just my opinion and how I do things.  I do not want to contact the company ahead of time to try to get a better rate, there will always be somebody out there who is hungry and willing to do the correct thing.



Then, it's ok to have a "one size fits all"??  We COULD put everything in a $10 (domestic) flat rate box.  Save a LOT of time trying to "jimmy" it into a small flat rate.  Our blanks are a full 6" long, the little box is 5.75".   But if you buy less than five blanks, it will fit (the other direction).  If you only buy one or two, we COULD use a padded envelope and pay regular parcel post rates.  But, those envelopes are about fifty cents each, if you buy two blanks, should we have that priced into each blank??? Or consider it part of shipping/handling?


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## DCBluesman (Oct 19, 2009)

I'm still waiting for a buyer to give me a plan that will work.  I don't need or want to profit on shipping, but I won't lose money on it.  

Should I estimate my total costs for shipping and then divide it by the number of items I expect to ship in a year and then raise the price by this amount?  Should I take that same total cost figure for shipping and divide it by estimated sales dollars for the year and then apply a percentage markup?  

The only answer that is not acceptable is "Absorb it.  Take it out of your own pocket."


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## DCBluesman (Oct 19, 2009)

One other point.  I have NEVER had a retail customer complain about the $1.50 handling.


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## NewLondon88 (Oct 19, 2009)

keandkafu said:


> When they charge me more than they paid, I do not return to them for future business.  Thats just my opinion and how I do things.



I suppose this isn't a good time to tell you that most of the UPS and Fedex
regular shippers get about a 40% discount..


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## Rollerbob (Oct 19, 2009)

Since when is against the law to make a profit? Competition will dictate what you charge on any given item, beit, merchandise or shipping and handling or any other charge you deem necessary. However, seen it time and time again, if people feel that you have a good product and good service, then most often shipping and/or handling becomes a mute point. Just my .02 worth!!


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## bitshird (Oct 19, 2009)

MLKWoodWorking said:


> Someone said, and forgive me as I can't remember who at this point, that the cost of shipping supplies and labor should be figured into the price of the product.  So my question at this point is do the people that do come in and pick up their order pay the same for the merchandise or do I now need two separate prices for every item?  If it is the first option, this means that everyone who purchases at their local Rockler would subsidise the shipping of those who live too far away to come to the store and need it shipped.
> Wow now this looks to me as some sort of shipping welfare.  This is a great idea, whoever came up with it should run for office or something.



A couple of places I used to deal with on animal feed and such did have 2 prices Cash & Carry, and Delivered, or they would offer a Cash & Carry Discount.


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## Tuba707 (Oct 19, 2009)

DennisM said:


> I think the underlying issue most have isnt with the actual shipping and handleing charges, most will agree that they are needed and a cost we have to deal with.
> 
> I think more so it arises from the unsavory ones who add on outragious handling charges. Sometimes its obvious, look at any TV offer, 24.95 plus s/h and then the total is 89.99 for a couple towels!
> 
> ...



No one will disagree with that!  That is just plain shady.  

My problem is with someone that calls out a reputable vendor, by name, that charges a reasonable flat rate shipping fee, and claims that they have poor customer service because of that.

By the way, free is never free.  Like I said before, its just in a different package.

My battery is dying, so I won't wax eloquent even if I could. 

Bottom line:
Businesses have a responsibility to be ethical and customers in a free market system have the choice not to buy!  Its great =)


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## Texatdurango (Oct 19, 2009)

I've been online shopping for a camera today, if I decide today, guess which vendor I am going to select; source A for $249.99 or source B for $252.

So far it's source B, because they have free shipping, source A has the lower price but charges $19.98 shipping making their total $269.97.  I didn't find this until I went through the checkout process and THAT's what aggravates me, finding out at the last minute that you have been "upcharged"!

Source B seems to be ok with rolling shipping in with the rest of his COST OF DOING BUSINESS, I wonder how he manages? 

This has been an interesting debate and it just shows me one thing, some folks are out to get every penny they can while others aren't.

When I sell a pen or two I will throw in some extra refill cartridges just as a way of saying thanks for the business.  At $1.90 apiece it doesn't break me, might just register in someones mind and perhaps be the cause for repeat business but from the discussion above I am sure there are those who would instead say.... "would you like to buy some extra cartridges for $3.50 each?"


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## Tuba707 (Oct 19, 2009)

Texatdurango said:


> I've been online shopping for a camera today, if I decide today, guess which vendor I am going to select; source A for $249.99 or source B for $252.
> 
> So far it's source B, because they have free shipping, source A has the lower price but charges $19.98 shipping making their total $269.97.  I didn't find this until I went through the checkout process and THAT's what aggravates me, finding out at the last minute that you have been "upcharged"!
> 
> ...



I give 2 free Schmidt refills with my pens.  Rolled into the price.

I think it shows that some people do things differently, and different is not necessarily wrong.  If Vendor A mislead you, then shame on them.  If not, then they just do things differently, it doesn't make them better or worse. Of course buy the cheaper one if its apples to apples! Its nice to have that choice.


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## IPD_Mrs (Oct 19, 2009)

NewLondon88 said:


> I suppose this isn't a good time to tell you that most of the UPS and Fedex
> regular shippers get about a 40% discount..


 
We have been with UPS since 1983 as a regular customer, daily pick-ups and deliveries.  We got our first discount two years ago when they did away with the local account reps. and our new rep. is in Texas.  I can assure you that unless you are doing 20k a week with UPS you are not getting the kind of discount you are suggesting.  A package under 5lbs going to a residential customer is more like 4%.  Oh but wait they are still tacking on a fuel surcharge, so your 4% is more like -3%.

I am going to **** a few of you off here but it needs to be said.  
If you do not know what you are talking about through first hand knowledge you are only showing your ignorance on the subject.  Until you operate as a business and not as part-time hobby that generates less than 5k a year in sales, the majority are clueless.  

There is no easy answer that will please everyone.  If you are so tight with your money that an extra $1.50 above the actual shipping cost is going to **** you off and run to the big corparate giants who out source everything but the executives pay, then go right ahead.  Then when those big companies make billions in quarterly profits like Exxon and all the Mom & Pop business go by the way side, don't complain when you have no other options and pay what they want or do without.

This one is for the Wheel of Fortune folks!

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

Used letter board:
A B D F G H I J K M N O P Q R T V W X Y Z


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## Mac (Oct 19, 2009)

Just went back and read oginial post and remembered that when I first started down this vortex, I called (hut )and ask if I could get cheaper shipping (like just mailed in an envolope, their answer is that they  used one shipper and that was as cheap as they would go.
I did not order the special clips that I needed from them, I just sold the guy ,buying the pen another one.
And have not ordered from them to this day, and probably  won't ,until I can fill up that $7.99 box. 

Its the --principal--( adj.--first or foremost in importance)of it ,that I go by.

You know the old saying --burt child dreads the fire ---
well I dread shipping and handling(dread--n. to be in terror of; fear greatly.To anticipate with anxiety or reluctance.


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## DennisM (Oct 19, 2009)

Texatdurango said:


> I've been online shopping for a camera today, if I decide today, guess which vendor I am going to select; source A for $249.99 or source B for $252.
> 
> So far it's source B, because they have free shipping, source A has the lower price but charges $19.98 shipping making their total $269.97. I didn't find this until I went through the checkout process and THAT's what aggravates me, finding out at the last minute that you have been "upcharged"!
> 
> ...


 
It is really hard to compare to different companies like that. Company A might have a smaller stock then B, B might have them drop shipped from their supplier and sell more thus the free shipping. 

Company A might actually have then on hand in inventory, thus have to charge shipping out as well. 

There are many companies that do not charge a handling fee, most of these are smaller companies run with one or two people, very low overhead, and smaller volume.

Now a company with 5 f/t pickers, that work 8 hours a day, and have to fill hundreds of orders, has to charge a handling fee other wise the payroll for the pickers will not be meet. 

best advice is to shop around and find the best deal you are comfortable with and go with it.


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## Mac (Oct 19, 2009)

MLKWoodWorking said:


> We have been with UPS since 1983 as a regular customer, daily pick-ups and deliveries.  We got our first discount two years ago when they did away with the local account reps. and our new rep. is in Texas.  I can assure you that unless you are doing 20k a week with UPS you are not getting the kind of discount you are suggesting.  A package under 5lbs going to a residential customer is more like 4%.  Oh but wait they are still tacking on a fuel surcharge, so your 4% is more like -3%.
> 
> I am going to **** a few of you off here but it needs to be said.
> If you do not know what you are talking about through first hand knowledge you are only showing your ignorance on the subject.  Until you operate as a business and not as part-time hobby that generates less than 5k a year in sales, the majority are clueless.
> ...



Why only one shipping company????
Should;nt you ,as a business owner ,try to find the best shipper for your customers.
By the way ((you)) are your shippers customer.
And I guess the post office lied on their  tv commercal ,that I saw....do they or don't they have a flate rate envelop, and do they or don't they pick up at no extra charge and is or not is envelops free. If they are not free then why do they keep giving them to me.
As far as handling charges ,that has come from the way they sell stuff on tv, thats not the honorable way to make money. But then again ,we are not an honorable country any more ,anyway.
If a customer buys from me ,they know ,what the price is, on the front end and there is no surprizes on the paying end, thats the way I was tought. And thats the way I will die.
Handling charges are like me setting up to sell and I stand a broom up against the cash register next to everyone that checks out and charge everybody for it .knowing if they come back I just say oh thats not yours..

PS haven't you noticed there is no mom and pops left.
at least not in the vocation I grew up selling in  ;to such as diners, cafes  ,small grocery stores ,small gas stations .  some of the towns that used to have 3 stores and 2 cafes have none now .ghost towns.


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## NewLondon88 (Oct 19, 2009)

MLKWoodWorking said:


> We have been with UPS since 1983 as a regular customer, daily pick-ups and deliveries.  We got our first discount two years ago when they did away with the local account reps. and our new rep. is in Texas.  I can assure you that unless you are doing 20k a week with UPS you are not getting the kind of discount you are suggesting.  A package under 5lbs going to a residential customer is more like 4%.  Oh but wait they are still tacking on a fuel surcharge, so your 4% is more like -3%.
> 
> I am going to **** a few of you off here but it needs to be said.
> If you do not know what you are talking about through first hand knowledge you are only showing your ignorance on the subject.



Well, that one appeared to be aimed my way .. but I started UPS shipping
back in the mid 70's and we were at 40% then. Nowhere near the weekly
numbers you're talking about. And the last time I shipped on a regular
basis was about 3 years ago for a friend of mine with a UPS Store. They
were also about 45% off, but had franchise fees and buying from their
approved vendors etc. But they weren't doing the numbers you mention
either.. except the two weeks before Christmas.

I'm not saying your numbers are the same. But my information *is* from 
firsthand knowledge. I considered buying the UPS Store at the time
and I handled all of the shipping back in 76-77 myself. I can't speak
for what happened in the middle, either.. but I didn't pull those numbers
out of my butt.  Perhaps I shouldn't assume that other shippers numbers
are similar.


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## Daniel (Oct 19, 2009)

Mac said:


> Why only one shipping company????
> Should;nt you ,as a business owner ,try to find the best shipper for your customers.



Not necessarily, I am not in business to save anyone money or provide them convenience of shipment. I am in business to provide a product. Not that the issue would be totally ignored but it is hardly the only consideration.


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## erbymcbrayer (Oct 19, 2009)

Some of the shipping rates are outrageous, for thatbreason I am eliminating many of my suppliers, shop a little and save a lot.


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## erbymcbrayer (Oct 19, 2009)

The problem that I have is getting a box of supplies and they could have been shipped in a box 3 times smaller , This is not being honest. I recently had to order 1 pen blank for a customers order, the blank was 3.50, shipping was 8.50, total of 12.00. It came in a box that would have held 15 to 20 blanks, this is unreal. No more orders to that supplier.


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## Mac (Oct 19, 2009)

Daniel said:


> Not necessarily, I am not in business to save anyone money or provide them convenience of shipment. I am in business to provide a product. Not that the issue would be totally ignored but it is hardly the only consideration.



But should be considered, in todays world...


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## Daniel (Oct 19, 2009)

Mac, I agree and in actual practice, certainly considering group buys i do. I fact I go to the trouble of calculating postage on a per order basis. I am trying to look at what I go through as a volunteer exact charge situation and try to apply it to running a business.
I can clearly see why a supplier woudl simply say I am charging you $12.00 to send this Item to you. It does not matter what I pay the shipping company. I didn't pay $25.00 for the item i am selling to you for $25.00 either. I made the product available and I made the means of getting it to you available and if I choose to charge you for both of those services, Is it wrong? neither came free to me. not free in cost, time, skill or knowledge.


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## wdcav1952 (Oct 19, 2009)

I have enjoyed following this thread.  There have been diverse opinions, but the overall tenor of the discussion has been civil.

Coincidentally enough, I had a discussion with a vendor, one of those mom and pop places that are supposedly extinct, about shipping charges.  Between us, we came to the conclusion that a flat rate for shipping was the easiest way to simplify his site.  Most people buy enough that the flat rate is pretty close to break even on shipping.  A few will only buy a kit or two and the shipping will be a tiny profit center.  Another small segment of the clientèle will buy enough  that there will be a slight loss on shipping.  Over the course of time, it likely will level out and be a wash, expense-wise.

One of the benefits of a mom and pop business is the personal service.  However, as has been pointed out, one has to ask for the personal service; it does not magically appear.  A small organization is more likely to be receptive of a request than a large one.  For example, when I needed a small replacement part for one of my Grizzly power tools, the part was only a couple of dollars.  Grizzly has a minimum shipping charge of $8.95, IIRC.  Since I needed the part, I was willing to pay the charge.  The staff at the Grizzly near me were apologetic about the charge, but since it was corporate policy, there was nothing they could do.  I had the choice of being upset and choosing to leave the tool un-repaired, or pay the fee.

When I had my own office, one of the major headaches was the constant requests for discounts.  People I hadn't seen for 20 years wanted a "friend" discount.  Others wanted a ministerial discount.  (For the record, I did my minister and his family for free, but did not extend a discount to other members of the clergy.)  Many people felt that I should absorb their deductible and whatever their insurance did not pay.  In  short, a significant percentage of people wanted a discount for one reason or another.  Often people who have never run a for profit business do not seem to realize all of the expense that goes into the overhead of running a business.  The "re-stock fairies" never showed up to replace the supplies I had used.

Another thing I finally learned is that 10% of your clientèle will cause 90% of your problems.  If you refuse to kowtow to their demands and they choose to leave your business, that is very much to your advantage.  No one can please everyone, and there are some that would not be pleased if the vendor delivered the purchase personally to their house.  Let these folks bother some one else; you won't miss their business at all.

Everyone is watching expenses in our present economic climate.  That said, since all of the members here have computers with Internet access, most of us have at least one lathe, and the vast majority of us are turning as a enjoyable hobby, carping and complaining about a dollar or two seems to be jousting with windmills, from my perspective.


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## Mac (Oct 20, 2009)

ed4copies said:


> This topic forces you to think like a business owner.
> 
> FUN, isn't it???
> 
> ...



JUST NOTICED YOUR SERIOUS???
I don't know what you charge for shipping ,but you should not be losing money on that. Are you shipping stuff free?
  There is a lot of hidden cost of doing business .You cannot just for example ;pay a $1 ,sell for $2 and think that you are making 100% on that item ,it might cost you $3 to sell for $2 so so every item that you sell for $2 cost you a $1. Thats not a positive.

I have a good true example of how to make money(not) and cover all expenses, here goes 
make slimlines ,put them in resale shops, drive 60 miles round trip to check sales deliver them and retail them in the shop for $10( pay for space in the store monthly whether you sell anything or not). kits cost less than $2 how much money can he make doing that.. 
I think he is going in the hole and its deep.. cause his cost of doing business is not $2 per pen or less.



PS pay yourself first ,if operating as a business ,cause if you fall so will it all..


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## jwoodwright (Oct 20, 2009)

I understand the "cost of doing business"  I think I understand that the site doesn't have all the info.  You must speak to a person.  I've spent quite a bit of time putting packages together.  Making labels and prepping packages for mailing.  Then to run into a less than happy postal clerk.  We have over 12 branches in Anchorage.  That means on any given day you can get 20-25 different answers...   I.E.  The Flat Rate Envelope is good for 70lbs.
Some will send it distended.  Most refuse...  The ones who refuse are the unhappy ones who are more that glad to "rain on your parade"...  I can never find supervisors when I ask.  Seems they're always in meetings...   

How about the Alaska surcharges using USPS Priority Mail Flat Rate packaging?  USPS doesn't charge them...  Vendors do!  There also are vendors who ship USPS Priority Mail Flat rate and list Lower 48 only...  Won't ship USPS to Alaska, only UPS/Fed X...

I've shipped USPS small flat rate to Canada, $4.95 jumps to $10.95!  Just sent one to Brownfield, Alberta.  Oh!  Only allowed 4 lbs on Canada and International...

I'm proud to say that Ryan and crew at Woodturningz know the facts and send at the best possible rate using the smallest USPS Flat Rate package needed.  Monday order means Thursday receipt of parts... (3 days to Anchorage)


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## MesquiteMan (Oct 20, 2009)

John,

Rather than mess with the stupid clerks, use the computer to print your label.  Then when you are done, schedule a carrier pick up for the next day.  Does not cost anything and your normal mail carrier will pick them up.  Works great for me.  I print my labels through paypal and then put the package on the front porch.  The next day, they mysteriously disappear and shortly thereafter, they arrive at my customer's homes!


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## Dario (Oct 20, 2009)

What ever I buy, I consider the shipping as part of the cost.  I've shipped my share and it can be difficult to actually find the "best" means of calculating it without wasting a lot of man hours.

 Shopping carts are used to streamline operations and lower cost but it does have limitations.  Trying to understand where the vendor stands lessen the aggravation on your part.

 Bottom line, buy where you get the best value.  If their cost (actual plus s&h) is too much, they loose your business.  In a way that is how you let them know they need to change to stay competitive.

 Planning your purchase and buying in bulk as stated earlier helps lessen the shipping cost (pro-rated per item).  Check for group buys here, they can make your purchase significantly lower.  BEWARE of over buying due to the "bargain".  I fell victim to that and at one point had more than $3,000.00 worth of pen kits in my inventory.  Not much to some but for me it is a lot since I turn very little (to nil now).  Luckily, it is easy to liquidate those here  lol.

The named sellers are actually some of our better suppliers so I am a bit surprised.  One note, they usually choose Priority because they want tracking for peace of mind and protection (yours and theirs).  I personally refuse to ship w/o tracking or insurance now.


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## islandturner (Oct 20, 2009)

Most of the replies so far are from the USA or overseas -- be thankful you're not in Canada. Here on the 'wet coast', we pay two sales taxes -- a provincial sales tax (PST) of 7% and a federal 'Goods & Services Tax' (GST) of 5% for a total of 12%. Shipping is usually 50% more from a US supplier, to ship to Canada. And of course, there are usually import duties.

If I buy on-line in Canada outside BC, I can avoid the PST -- this 'almost' pays the shipping.

I travel in the USA a fair amount. Before I go, I'll sometimes order my supplies on-line and have them shipped to my hotel, and declare them on the way home (avoiding the custom's duties). The savings over Canadian pricing, taxes, and the extra shipping to Canada, is really nice. 

Steve


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## maxwell_smart007 (Oct 20, 2009)

islandturner said:


> Most of the replies so far are from the USA or overseas -- be thankful you're not in Canada. Here on the 'wet coast', we pay two sales taxes -- a provincial sales tax (PST) of 7% and a federal 'Goods & Services Tax' (GST) of 5% for a total of 12%. Shipping is usually 50% more from a US supplier, to ship to Canada. And of course, there are usually import duties.
> 
> If I buy on-line in Canada outside BC, I can avoid the PST -- this 'almost' pays the shipping.
> 
> ...



Just wait until next summer when they combine the taxes into an HST tax


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## GPDMTR25 (Oct 20, 2009)

wdcav1952 said:


> Before venting your spleen on vendors, two of three by name, did you take the time to email the vendor and ask if alternative shipping was available? If not, I would suggest you do so before making such a post.


 
Actually I have


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## Tuba707 (Oct 20, 2009)

GPDMTR25 said:


> Actually I have



Before or after?

You took the time to give details with your original post and it would be interesting to hear the specific details of your contact with the companies and their responses.


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## Chasper (Oct 20, 2009)

"Shipping, Handling and Guranteed Delivery," is the phrasing that the Direct Marketing Association recommends.  If as a seller your shipping charge is greater than the total of your actual shipping charge, plus the labor and materials cost of pick, pack and ship, plus the cost of delivery insurance and/or replacement of lost packages, then you are precisely in the cross hairs of a number of class action law suits that are a thorn in the side of the catalog and online direct marketing industries.

Anybody (and I use the word "anybody" with clear intent, not as a mindless supurlative) who gives away free shipping on a regular basis is either charging too much, on their way to going out of business, or buying business until their competitors go out of business which will allow them to stop giving away shipping.


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## GPDMTR25 (Oct 20, 2009)

I just wanted to explain I didn’t use the company names to imply anything negative about the company. I was just using factual information from their website. Actually I think Bear Tooth has some great ideas at great prices and I love the blanks he carries. Hut also has a great polish and some unusual items for sale. Also I’ve contacted companies before and all of them so far have reduced their shipping rates based on the items I need. 

Many of you have made great points about shipping cost. I’m not in the busy of shipping and that’s probably why I’m looking at it as outrageous prices. I’m the one that waits until the free shipping comes around then I stock up. 

Arizona Silhouette has a great shipping arrangement but I bet many people don’t like placing an order without knowing the shipping. 

I think companies should still offer first class shipping prices. Our allow a person to purchase a couple of pen clips without paying 200% of the actual item price.


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## ed4copies (Oct 20, 2009)

GPDMTR25 said:


> I just wanted to explain I didn’t use the company names to imply anything negative about the company. I was just using factual information from their website. Actually I think Bear Tooth has some great ideas at great prices and I love the blanks he carries. Hut also has a great polish and some unusual items for sale. Also I’ve contacted companies before and all of them so far have reduced their shipping rates based on the items I need.
> 
> Many of you have made great points about shipping cost. I’m not in the busy of shipping and that’s probably why I’m looking at it as outrageous prices. I’m the one that waits until the free shipping comes around then I stock up.
> 
> ...



I couldn't agree with you more!!!

However, when you are shipping dozens of packages a day, you do TRY to expedite.  There is no way that I know of, to print a label for parcel post.  So, priority mail has become the default for most shippers.  Minimum charge: $4.80

We ARE open to suggestions.


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## traderdon55 (Oct 20, 2009)

Ed, it is easy to see why first class shipping would be too much of a pain for a company to deal with. I personally have no problem with a company using priority mail. If I chose to order one pen kit when I could have ordered ten for the same shipping that would be my problem. The only problem to me has been the companies that would charge for example$7.95 shipping & handling then use the $4.80 priority mail envelope and the difference would be extra profit for them. This topic could be debated for the next month and it would make no difference as everyone has their own opinion and no two are going to be the same. The bottom line is companies are going to set their own policies and we can accept them or not accept them and buy from someone else. Just for the record my opinion has nothing to do with the people selling on IAP as everyone I have bought from on here has been very fair on shipping.


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