# Is it the Tool or the Experience?



## leehljp (Dec 23, 2020)

In reading a few recent threads, including this one: https://www.penturners.org/threads/acrylic-blanks-shattering-when-turning.167918/#post-2102048
 . . . It occurred to me that there may be more to arriving at a good end-result than we may identifying.

As we have problems with particular blanks, questions are asked and often a different tool is suggested. Most of the time the problem is solved. But I wonder if the problem is solved solely by the new tool, or from a different attitude and change in approach? For me, I go for the "feel" and approach delicate blanks with trepidation along with extreme sensitivity to tactile feedback from my tool of choice, and am ready to withdraw the tool in an "instant".

With most people (IMHO) after a few blowouts or problems, when they have not had them previously had the problem - not only does a new or different tool choice take place, but a bit of trepidation and adjustment in turning feed takes place along - with an increased consciousness of "tool feel" feedback. 

How much of the success is from a new tool, and how much is from the adjustment in our own personal approach (i.e. learning / learned experience) from that issue?

IF it is the experience, the old tool can still be used, and more effectively as a result; But sometimes it is the tool, but more than likely it is a combination of both.

Do any of you analyze your procedure like I do? Just curious!


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## ed4copies (Dec 23, 2020)

Yes, Hank!  I have come to believe ANY tool with which you are proficient can make virtually ANY cut.  Success is in using the tool in an efficient manner (note I did NOT say using it CORRECTLY, because I think each person can define their own "correctly" and be successful).

The other characteristic that is prevalent is the "It wasn't ME" philosophy.  Can't begin to tell  you how many times I hear "It blew up".
My thought process is always, "Gee, were you in the room when this happened?"  It blew up because of something your tool did, and you are supposed to be controlling the tool!!  So, YOU screwed up.  Once you accept that, you can start changing your methods and become successful.

Trees are made for a function in nature--if you choose to turn burls, it is YOUR job to make them into pens in spite of grain challenges.  Likewise, learn to see any flaws in plastic blanks BEFORE they blow up--CA or epoxy is your friend, learn when to use them to AVOID blow-ups.

The most beautiful pens are born from irregular blanks--as you learn to control your tools, you are capable of making pens from materials that have greater and greater "challenge factor".  But first you need to accept the fact that YOU are the problem and only YOU can become the solution.

Good luck!!
Ed
25 years of penmaking and STILL blow up a blank now and then!!


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## MRDucks2 (Dec 23, 2020)

I think there are more facets to this gem for same than maybe others. I hear of people using only a “_______” for pens or whatever they turn, as well as those who prefer to crank out straight bodies on a metal lathe or the like.

For me personally, it can be a combination of the tool, the experience, the blank, the day and the mood. Some English dude on YouTube said to master the skew so I first worked to do the whole blank with a skew. It works quite well on any material once you get past the concern that the machine is going to rip it out of your hands and beat you with it. Then, I tried every other tool in my HF HSS set. Added a Magic Skew and have been quite happy.

Some days the skew is the go to tool. Some days a gouge. Some days I use a scraper, other days I don’t. I do two things if I am having a problem with a particular tool/blank combination. I will try different tools to get the end result I want with the blank, usually going that route first of making a pen to order. Then I go back and figure out how to get the result I wanted with the tool I started out with.

I agree with Ed that you can ultimately turn about anything with a sharp tool if you know how to get it done. I have learned that I sometimes figure out how to use a tool to achieve a particular cut with great satisfaction only to later hear a never do it like that or you can’t do it that way comment.

I may use only a single tool (often either the skew or Magic Skew) for a while. Other times I use 3 different tools on one pen. One thing I rarely do is use any tool in a scraping cut unless touching something up at the end with a scraper and seldom use a peeling cut. I have com to see some turners indicate that is the only way they know to turn.

In the end, and for life, my philosophy is pretty straight forward though. All of my successes are through God. Everything I mess up is on me. 

Merry Christmas, all.


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## jttheclockman (Dec 23, 2020)

Have to say I never had a blank blow up since I started this. I have used every type of material possible. Now I have had segmented blanks fall apart but that is a different story. I agree sharp tools of any kind will get the job done if you know how to use them. More times than not it is touch that hurts people. They get complacent and get heavy handed because they become impatient. Boy I see this all the time in the scrollsawing world and people complain about the blade they are using. Yes at time it could be but most times it is a hobby that no matter what you do requires patients and if you do not have patience stay far far far away from a scrollsaw. You can say the same about pen turning. So many times I read on here and makes me laugh well my blank blew up or my tube fell out or my finish is not working. That is because you did not take the time to learn the proper ways to do it or you were in too much of a rush to get it done. Yes we do not like to hear this but it is so true. You took up this hobby to relax so do just that relax. If a blank blows up learn why it did and do not make the same mistake. Learn your tools and become proficient with them. Learn how to sharpen. Learn how to present the tool to the work. There are so many videos today, there are forums like this to pick people's brains but PUT THE EFFORT in. This is not magic. Patience goes a long way.


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## Chasper (Dec 23, 2020)

I'm of the belief that it isn't the tool, it is the hands holding the tool. Likewise it isn't the glue, the room temperature, and for the most part it isn't the blank. I base that opinion on having blown up quite a large number of blanks along the way, everyone of them being because of my own mistakes. Experience solves a lot of problems.


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## dogcatcher (Dec 23, 2020)

Problems almost always have an issue with operator error.


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## mmayo (Dec 23, 2020)

First agree with the above.

I usually start every turning with a newly sharpened 1” HSS roughing gouge. When it either starts to act strangely or when I’m close to size I change to a 2” radius carbide tool. I have a skew and thankfully can sharpen and use it carefully. The skew is very kind to very squirrelly burls. For inlace acrylester which can be problematic I do the same thing. My previously described problems with the material was due to poorly sharpened HSS or sharpened carbide chips. The bad day when I’m less steady or focused usually results in a coffee break and sometimes a negative rake carbide tool.

It is always me, not usually the tool if sharp. It is probably you too. I wish everyone smooth safe turning.


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## TDahl (Dec 24, 2020)

I have to admit that when I have had something go awry I discovered it was do to my impatience and rushing through a step in the process. Several times I have suspected my tools might have been failing, but found they were working perfectly. I believe this is complacency that is a result of having completed one of these steps in the process (i.e drilling blanks) successfully many many times and now assume I wouldl be successful again without giving it much thought. Then when I did fail on that step, I figured it can't be me I have done this hundreds of times. Some must be wrong with my tools. When we were new to this newly found passion of ours, we all were careful during each step in the process as we did not want to make a mistake, so we took our time. I think it is safe to say we were all successful. 

I think JT said it best. We took up this hobby to take a break from our rush rush busy lives yet we rush through each step as if we were on a deadline. Practice patience, relax, and enjoy the process.


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## RichAldrich (Dec 24, 2020)

Sometimes the blank does not like what tool I am using or how I am using it.  I do not fight it.  I just go with it.  On to try whatever will work or analyze my technique and adjust.  
It is definitely an instant gratification hobby.  Concentrate on the process and the journey.  Arrival at completion is the gratification.
I never take one more cut.  Keep cutting until completion.  Cut inspect, Cut inspect.  It is impossible to predict how many one more cuts are going to be necessary.  Instead be prepared to take as many as necessary.  
Keep cutting until you can say that was my last cut.


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## rherrell (Dec 24, 2020)

It takes experience to choose the right tool.

See my avatar..Mr. Natural is "experienced".


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## howsitwork (Dec 24, 2020)

Hank

I tend to follow the reflect, resharpen and then try a different approach with sensitivity method. Note the reflect over a coffee technique is also very useful 

Honed skew chisels or my favourite freshly sharpened Henry Taylor roughing gouge with necessary adjustment to speed after solve it as I find vibration often is often e cause of many problems.


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## GraiDawg (Dec 24, 2020)

one more cut..... one more cut usually means you are going to mess it up imho


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## leehljp (Dec 24, 2020)

howsitwork said:


> Hank
> 
> I tend to follow the reflect, resharpen and then try a different approach with sensitivity method. Note the reflect over a coffee technique is also very useful
> 
> Honed skew chisels or my favourite freshly sharpened Henry Taylor roughing gouge with necessary adjustment to speed after solve it as I find vibration often is often e cause of many problems.


I am glad to hear the responses here. I am self taught because there were no pen turners or even bowl turners near me when I started. There probably were no hobby lathes (like my Rikon) within 100 miles of me at the time.

So I have to do a lot of thinking and analyzing, and relying on "feel" and feedback. In the tool feedback while it is cutting - are the many combinations in the distinguishing of the cutting smoothness, sharpness of the cutting edge, minute' vibration, feel of the wood or material, or combination of material on segments.

I know that my wife wishes that I could be that sensitive to her moods!  But wood, cast material, knotty wood and tools are far more consistent! (I hope my wife doesn't read this.)


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## Mortalis (Dec 24, 2020)

leehljp said:


> How much of the success is from a new tool, and how much is from the adjustment in our own personal approach (i.e. learning / learned experience) from that issue?
> 
> IF it is the experience, the old tool can still be used, and more effectively as a result; But sometimes it is the tool, *but more than likely it is a combination of both.*


IMO this is the answer. 
Experience has the knowledge to know how to glue a tube to the blank to minimize the chance of of blow-out. Experience has the knowledge to know how fast to turn a blank. Experience to know when a tool needs to be sharpened because it has a feel of too much pressure or rubbing or 'bounce' to the cut.
The tool ( keep in mind everything you use is considered a tool) has a value of success to it. Every lathe has a level of craftsmanship in its build that lends to higher percentage of success. Every lathe tool has a level of quality to it that lends to keeping an edge sharper longer. 

Knowledge comes with time and experience. Tooling, inevitably, comes with cost. A level of success is a result of both variables. But, you can own the most expensive tooling and with little or no knowledge have very minimal success. You can have bare minimum tooling (watch some Asian video of hobbled together lathe and a sharpened plow share) who has many years experience turn out the some beautiful pieces.


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## Ted iin Michigan (Dec 24, 2020)

Long thread, but...
Is it the tool or the user? - YES


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## MillerTurnings (Dec 24, 2020)

I am convinced that some days even the non wood blanks have a "grain" to them. They tend to cut better in one direction than the other. Likely it is the sharpening on the other edge, the angle of holding the tool, the way the acrylic was mixed and poured, etc. I, of course, am never the culprit.


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## jttheclockman (Dec 24, 2020)

You know what I am seeing here and like alot is the old timers jumping in on this. By that I mean those that have been here for some time and have been turning pens now for some time. What that tells you is experience does count. I am sure we all have seen some sort of problem arise when making pens of any kind and we worked through them by learning what to do and not to do. As with all aspects of life we learn from our mistakes. But as with other tools we use in the shop such as tablesaws, routers, bandsaws, sanders and list goes on, we need to understand the the tool and learn how to use properly not only for safety but for performance and getting the most from them.. It all takes time and hands on experience. I am always amazed at people who can make projects that just seem impossible but they do it with knowledge and experience. How they got there can be many ways. I too am like Hank self taught on a lathe. My Dad never had one. I never joined a club but had enough tool knowledge to be able to watch videos and talk to turners and join forums and learned slowly. Now of course I always had this drive or burr under the saddle that wants me to learn segmenting more and do some of those artsy bowls and pots and things. I look at galleries of people who show their work in this area and drool. I guess my point is yes tool in hand is a start but where it goes from there is all up to you. We all have the ability to get better and this hobby is a simple one and yes it can get frustrating if you let it but it is also a rewarding one in many ways so Happy Turing and enjoy the ride. Keep those tools sharp.


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## Mortalis (Dec 24, 2020)

Mortalis said:


> IMO this is the answer.
> Experience has the knowledge to know how to glue a tube to the blank to minimize the chance of of blow-out. Experience has the knowledge to know how fast to turn a blank. Experience to know when a tool needs to be sharpened because it has a feel of too much pressure or rubbing or 'bounce' to the cut.
> The tool ( keep in mind everything you use is considered a tool) has a value of success to it. Every lathe has a level of craftsmanship in its build that lends to higher percentage of success. Every lathe tool has a level of quality to it that lends to keeping an edge sharper longer.
> 
> Knowledge comes with time and experience. Tooling, inevitably, comes with cost. A level of success is a result of both variables. But, you can own the most expensive tooling and with little or no knowledge have very minimal success. You can have bare minimum tooling (watch some Asian video of hobbled together lathe and a sharpened plow share) who has many years experience turn out the some beautiful pieces.


I want to apologize for the use of Asian. That is racist and bigoted and I am not that way. What I should have said was someone without the resources to afford the mainstream purchasable tools.
I just dont want this thread to turn into that conversation.


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## howsitwork (Dec 24, 2020)

The one thing everyone seemed to mention is TAKING THE TIME  TO REFLECT upon what has happened, the. adjusting your technique be that lathe speed, tool sharpness, approach angle etc and trying again.

As has been said many times on this and other threads we are here to enjoy this. It’s about the ride as much as the destination or result. The view on the road can lead to many other highways and byways you mai wish to explore. If you take a turning [ no pun intended ) then find something good or different we all appreciate being told about the sign post and the junction.

Have a great family break where ever you may be. Stay safe and healthy and live for the journey.


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## PreacherJon (Dec 24, 2020)

This sounds like another, Schrödinger's cat, problem.


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## PreacherJon (Dec 24, 2020)

Mortalis said:


> I want to apologize for the use of Asian. That is racist and bigoted and I am not that way. What I should have said was someone without the resources to afford the mainstream purchasable tools.
> I just dont want this thread to turn into that conversation.


Just stop that...  You are correct in calling out the race... we all understood what you meant... we've seen the incredible work on YouTube and such.  I'm tired... very tired of worrying about political correctness.  To quote Lieutenant O'hura in Star Trek after being called a beautiful, "Negress." by Abraham Lincoln.  "They are just words and words can't do anything to you if you don't let them."   How far we have digressed since the  sixties enlightenment.


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## leehljp (Dec 24, 2020)

A little difference from Schrödinger's cat: Lots of people with some fine tools that have not yet developed the full set of skills to use them. That is a process. But reflecting and thinking about it speeds the process along tremendously! To me, it is not so much of a philosophy as an application of what has been learned, or can be learned.


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## penicillin (Dec 25, 2020)

PreacherJon said:


> Just stop that... You are correct in calling out the race... we all understood what you meant... we've seen the incredible work on YouTube and such. I'm tired... very tired of worrying about political correctness. To quote Lieutenant O'hura in Star Trek after being called a beautiful, "Negress." by Abraham Lincoln. "They are just words and words can't do anything to you if you don't let them." How far we have digressed since the sixties enlightenment.


No, YOU stop that.  Since when is respecting others not the right thing to do?

This is a preacher justifying racist language, saying that it is correct. Is that what he tells his flock?  True, we can't change the past, and we shouldn't let the words of the past do anything to us, but that is no excuse for accepting racist language today, and imposing the burden on those who are subjected to it. Is Jon incapable of learning better? What kind of preacher is he?

I assume Jon meant "regressed" and not "digressed", and I agree wholeheartedly.


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## penicillin (Dec 25, 2020)

Addressing @leehljp's original post:

I keep a notebook in my workshop. I use it to record measurements, what works, what doesn't work, etc. I refer back to old entries much more than you would think, and use it as a learning aid for myself and a teaching aid for others. I would prefer a searchable, electronic record (say, a laptop), but do not want to mess up my good laptop with sawdust and other shop contaminants. That Mac laptop has a keyboard that fails if you breathe on it.

-> One thing that I cannot explain is how repetition and experience result in improved efficiency and quality. My woodworking definitely improves even though it feels like I am not doing anything different. 

-> Somehow an invisible hand helps you get better at something, but you don't notice whatever it is that is changing and making it better.


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## dogcatcher (Dec 25, 2020)

It is not the number of tools or the amount of money spent on tools that makes a good craftsman.  It is experience and abilities.


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## leehljp (Dec 25, 2020)

dogcatcher said:


> It is not the number of tools or the amount of money spent on tools that makes a good craftsman.  It is experience and abilities.


Somewhat of a tangent - but abilities are usually developed and brought to the forefront through experience. Some people have natural abilities and some people have to work hard at it; never the less it is the experiences of working at it that fine tunes abilities. Michael Jordan would not have been as good as his natural abilities if he had not worked hard at developing those "built in" abilities. It took a lot of practice and he was often out practicing before most of his teammates arrived, and often stayed after others were gone. Experience develops and hones/sharpens the abilities!


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## PreacherJon (Dec 26, 2020)

penicillin said:


> No, YOU stop that.  Since when is respecting others not the right thing to do?
> 
> This is a preacher justifying racist language, saying that it is correct. Is that what he tells his flock?  True, we can't change the past, and we shouldn't let the words of the past do anything to us, but that is no excuse for accepting racist language today, and imposing the burden on those who are subjected to it. Is Jon incapable of learning better? What kind of preacher is he?
> 
> I assume Jon meant "regressed" and not "digressed", and I agree wholeheartedly.


This is a preacher that recognizes the difference between talented people and racism.  One who grew up in the 60's and 70's and lived throught the removal of real racism.... If I see many people of a particular culture highly talented at a particular skill and point it out, that is not racism.  God made people with a vast variety of talents and gifts.  God made all the cultures, races and colors of the world, and loves everyone of them.  Maybe you need to go back and watch some 70's Johnny Carson... or the movie Blazing Saddles.  They used the outrageous humor to show the absurdity of racisms and the use of words.  Yet, the politically correct have decided that everything is offensive to virtue signal above others how much better you are than them.


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## penicillin (Dec 26, 2020)

To @PreacherJon: 
I will not refute your comments further, other than to say that you are utterly wrong. 

To others:
Please accept my apology for diverting the topic, but I could not stand idly by and allow such a contemptible post pass without comment. In the interest of not highjacking the thread any more, that is my final word on this subject.


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