# Honeycomb Pen Blank Problems



## StuartCovey

I recently bought some honeycomb pen blanks from Mike.  I decided to try one today but ran into some problems.  The paper honeycomb kept chipping away.  I tried every different tool I had.  I had just sharpened all my tools so I don't think that was a problem. Any advise?  Am I doing something wrong?   I mainly tried to use a a sharp skew barely shaving it away but still no luck. 
I posted a pic so you all know what I'm talking about.

Since the honeycomb didn't work I had to make something :frown:  So I made a Sierra out of some stabilized oak I had. Posted some pics too.


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## Dan Masshardt

I had the same exact result with the first one I did. :-(. Unused brand new carbide and light cuts.  I should have waited on doing the color I liked best.  Haha. 

I didn't have much hope for doing the second one the same way, so I decided to take a different route which worked great and I would highly recommend.   You might have to buy something though.  

I put the square blank in my chuck with pin jaws. Used a live center in the tailstock for added support.  Then I use a flap disc in an angle grinder, ran the lathe around 800-1000 and sanded the sucker down to round. (Quick)

Flip the blank around and repeat.  

Once round, I had no problem turning.


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## StuartCovey

Dan Masshardt said:


> I had the same exact result with the first one I did. :-(. Unused brand new carbide and light cuts.  I should have waited on doing the color I liked best.  Haha.
> 
> I didn't have much hope for doing the second one the same way, so I decided to take a different route which worked great and I would highly recommend.   You might have to buy something though.
> 
> I put the square blank in my chuck with pin jaws. Used a live center in the tailstock for added support.  Then I use a flap disc in an angle grinder, ran the lathe around 800-1000 and sanded the sucker down to round. (Quick)
> 
> Flip the blank around and repeat.
> 
> Once round, I had no problem turning.




That sounds interesting, but I think i'll try it!   I'll let you know how it works.


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## healeydays

Hi guys,  just got back on line.  These blanks are not paper, it's Nomex.  Each cell should be looked at as a separate poured cell and if yo don't take it slow getting to round, you can have a blowout, but once you get to round, they turn nice.  You catch an edge of one of the cells and it will tear.  Dan has come up with an interesting way to round them.  I haven't tried it yet, but will after the 1st of the year when I find some free time in the basement.


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## carlmorrell

Maybe I got lucky.  Sort of.  I forgot to consider backpainting the blank.  Anyhow, I used my usual technique.  Took it slow, with a gouge.


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## Dan Masshardt

Next time I do one, I'll try to take several photos of the process to share.


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## healeydays

carlmorrell said:


> Maybe I got lucky.  Sort of.  I forgot to consider backpainting the blank.  Anyhow, I used my usual technique.  Took it slow, with a gouge.



Wow Carl, that turned out great.

Mike B


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## StuartCovey

Well, I'm going to try another one tomorrow.  First I'll use Dan's method, if that works I will try another and just taking it extremely slow.

Thanks guys for all the advise.


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## commercialbuilder

I make the honeycomb blanks using the Nomex and what I do is when I sand the blank square to the tube I also sand the corners down on a rough 45 degree angle before turning. I use carbide tools and they have turned very easy after doing that. I cast using Alumilite and I do not have to take shallow cuts when turning.


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## Sabaharr

You may also try a sled on the band saw with the table at 45° and trim the corners off the blank. It would take most of the trauma off the blank at the beginning. I built a sled with a blank holder so I could trim the corners off blanks. That way I keep the table flat. Its a tool and time saver.


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## Indiana_Parrothead

Don't ask me how I know, but you do not want to use a pen mill on these honeycomb blanks either, sand the ends of them.

Mike


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## LagniappeRob

healeydays said:


> These blanks are not paper, it's Nomex.



Then actually it is an "arimid fiber paper" .. but then it's not in the sense that most people think of paper. Really cool stuff... I have a blank I've wanted to do something with, just not sure what yet.


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## rd_ab_penman

Never had a problem with Mike's blanks.
I just drill mine out, knock off the corners and TBC using a razor sharp 1/2" spindle gouge.
I like to turn these prior to gluing in the tube. That way I can experiment with different colored tubes prior to gluing.
For this one I polished the brass tube.
Works great for me!


























Les


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## commercialbuilder

Nomex is a honeycomb paper product impregnated with a fire retardant chemical, it is used in the front of race car radiators to stop objects from hitting the aluminum radiator but does not restrict air flow. you can get the material with 3 different size cells if my memory is correct.


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## healeydays

The products do come in different cell sizes and thicknesses.  The radiator stuff is 3/8" thick and I've used it in the past on cars and it does protect the crumple zone real well as it is cheap insurance for an expensive radiator.

  The bigger stuff I use is specifically made for the aviation industry and is a different product than the radiator stuff.  It needs to be for the stresses associated with how it is used and it ain't cheap...

Mike B


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## StuartCovey

Thanks guys for all the info!  
I didn't have a chance to try one today, but I will let you guys now when it happens.


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## Dai Sensei

I sand all my temperamental blanks round before I start on a sanding disk.  That way there are no sharp edges to catch on.  See this VID starting at 14:40 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayQ44ICoWDw


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## StuartCovey

Ok guys,  I got the honeycomb blank glued up and sanded round with a belt sander.  Tomorrow I will turn it and see what happens.


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## OKLAHOMAN

Even though you have it round take lite cuts. I did one blank this morning with my Rotundo (a carbide tool with a round carbide blade) did not sand it round first but took *very* lite cuts until round than just lite cuts.


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## edstreet

So has anyone confirmed what the real problem is here?  Looking over this several times I see some mention 'no problems' and others say they have had the same problem.  So in short is this a blank material problem, a skill set problem or a method problem?


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## OKLAHOMAN

Ed, remember 80% of the members here started with wood which you can be more aggressive with before going to acrylics and after mastering the acrylics they again became aggressive as their skill level rose. These blank require a much lighter touch as do other blanks such as Inlace, and another skill level is required for high end Cebloplast when drilling and gutting. These blanks are a combination skill set and method.


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## StuartCovey

OKLAHOMAN said:


> Even though you have it round take lite cuts.


I will, don't want to ruin another blank




edstreet said:


> So has anyone confirmed what the real problem is here?  Looking over this several times I see some mention 'no problems' and others say they have had the same problem.  So in short is this a blank material problem, a skill set problem or a method problem?



I really have absolutely no idea.


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## edstreet

Ok cool.  I was curious as I have never turned one but I could see several reasons there could be problems but was not sure which one it was.  So what I am hearing is these blanks are indeed more delicate than many.  Which is fine and all and a very good thing to know when looking at blanks.


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## StuartCovey

edstreet said:


> So what I am hearing is these blanks are indeed more delicate than many.  Which is fine and all and a very good thing to know when looking at blanks.



This was probably my biggest downfall.  I had absolutely no idea how delicate these blanks where, so I went at it like any other acrylic.  From what I'm reading, bad idea.


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## edstreet

StuartCovey said:


> edstreet said:
> 
> 
> 
> So what I am hearing is these blanks are indeed more delicate than many.  Which is fine and all and a very good thing to know when looking at blanks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This was probably my biggest downfall.  I had absolutely no idea how delicate these blanks where, so I went at it like any other acrylic.  From what I'm reading, bad idea.
Click to expand...



Well how did they handle when drilling?  That should be a very good indicator when evaluating a blank.


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## OKLAHOMAN

Yes, just as I would not recommend Cebloplast unless they know the inherent risk,  even thought it's been around for years I still tell them about the heat factor as I will on these let them know that the risk of tear out with to aggressive use of the tool of choice.



edstreet said:


> Ok cool.  I was curious as I have never turned one but I could see several reasons there could be problems but was not sure which one it was.  So what I am hearing is these blanks are indeed more delicate than many.  Which is fine and all and a very good thing to know when looking at blanks.


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## StuartCovey

edstreet said:


> Well how did they handle when drilling?  That should be a very good indicator when evaluating a blank.



Surprisingly they went pretty well. There was a little chipping when the bit broke through, but wasn't all that bad.
Actually this Sierra blank will be about 1/16" shorter than usual because of this. (I didn't allow for chipping into the length)


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## edstreet

OKLAHOMAN said:


> Yes, just as I would not recommend Cebloplast unless they know the inherent risk,  even thought it's been around for years I still tell them about the heat factor as I will on these let them know that the risk of tear out with to aggressive use of the tool of choice.



Ahh yes, while currently there is no 'rating system' for blank difficulty or very little listing as how they turn or any precautions to take I am curious if there could listing this on the description to reflect this?  I am wondering if that would cut down on the complaints or problems that came up.  Perhaps even some video, iap link or what not in how best to turn them.  While not all would need that it would be greatly helpful to many, I know I have struggled with many blanks in the past due to lack of information also lack of skill mind you.



StuartCovey said:


> Surprisingly they went pretty well. There was a little chipping when the bit broke through, but wasn't all that bad.
> Actually this Sierra blank will be about 1/16" shorter than usual because of this. (I didn't allow for chipping into the length)



Well chipping does mean certain things but from the original post photo I see fiber type strands, chips, rips and various other things going on there.  Do you know how to read the shavings from a drill bit?


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## StuartCovey

edstreet said:


> Well chipping does mean certain things but from the original post photo I see fiber type strands, chips, rips and various other things going on there.  Do you know how to read the shavings from a drill bit?



No, I do not.


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## edstreet

StuartCovey said:


> edstreet said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well chipping does mean certain things but from the original post photo I see fiber type strands, chips, rips and various other things going on there.  Do you know how to read the shavings from a drill bit?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, I do not.
Click to expand...


This will likely get you started but keep in mind this article is mostly for metal use in machine shops.  However this same principal applies to every material that we use as well.  It not only applies to the drill bits but also our chisels and end mills and all methods of finishing.

Read Your Chips : Modern Machine Shop

The key thing is to pay attention to how the lathe handles when you drill and chisel.  Take note of what the chips looks like, size and how the hole looks, color, temperature and feel.  Once you start making adjustments those things will drastically change and your quality can vastly improve.


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## StuartCovey

edstreet said:


> This will likely get you started but keep in mind this article is mostly for metal use in machine shops.  However this same principal applies to every material that we use as well.  It not only applies to the drill bits but also our chisels and end mills and all methods of finishing.
> 
> Read Your Chips : Modern Machine Shop
> 
> The key thing is to pay attention to how the lathe handles when you drill and chisel.  Take note of what the chips looks like, size and how the hole looks, color, temperature and feel.  Once you start making adjustments those things will drastically change and your quality can vastly improve.



Ok, I will read up on that.  Thanks


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## Dan Masshardt

I had no problems drilling 

I think that the material is what it is    It's going to be challenging to get round no matter what   If I was selling I'd put a big warning   Mike has done so with the blanks he's sold   

I'm no expert but I went as gingerly as I felt I could and ripped about to the tube   The second one after rounding with the flap disc was fine using carbide  

I think the blanks turn very well once round


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## StuartCovey

Well, I tried doing the blank today and it did not work.   But I did find out that my skew is the culprit.  It might be its not sharp enough or its the way I'm using it, but it definitely is not working for me.   After I ruined the blank I did some experimenting with all of my tools and found that my gouge works the best without chipping.
So, now that I've ruined another blank I'm a little hesitant to try again, but after finding that the gouge works better I think I'll take another shot at it soon.


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## Dan Masshardt

StuartCovey said:


> Well, I tried doing the blank today and it did not work.   But I did find out that my skew is the culprit.  It might be its not sharp enough or its the way I'm using it, but it definitely is not working for me.   After I ruined the blank I did some experimenting with all of my tools and found that my gouge works the best without chipping. So, now that I've ruined another blank I'm a little hesitant to try again, but after finding that the gouge works better I think I'll take another shot at it soon.


we're you rounding it from square with the skew?


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## StuartCovey

Dan Masshardt said:


> we're you rounding it from square with the skew?



No, I had sanded round and then started using the skew but it still chipped enough to make the blank unusable, so I than started experimenting with other tools.


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## StuartCovey

Ok, before I start on another blank I would like to know what you guys have been doing and using on your Honeycomb Blanks.   Tool, lathe speed, etc.

Thanks

P.S. Mikes sending me some to practice on so it will be a couple days before I try again.  Thanks Mike!


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## Dan Masshardt

Carbide easy wood tool once rounded.  Fast.


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## healeydays

I use a Carbide turning tool with indexable carbide inserts size 15mm x 15mm x 25mm

I haven't been able to get much turning done over the last couple weeks, but turned a piece of the honeycomb last night and will try to post a picture tonite.

Mike B


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## StuartCovey

healeydays said:


> I use a Carbide turning tool with indexable carbide inserts size 15mm x 15mm x 25mm
> 
> I haven't been able to get much turning done over the last couple weeks, but turned a piece of the honeycomb last night and will try to post a picture tonite.
> 
> Mike B



What speed did you turn it at?


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## carlmorrell

9/16" fingernail gouge, turned on it's side so it acts more like a skew.  Less than 2000 rpm.  Light passes.  Stop 1/16 short of bushings, then switch to sandpaper. YMMV:biggrin:


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## healeydays

StuartCovey said:


> healeydays said:
> 
> 
> 
> I use a Carbide turning tool with indexable carbide inserts size 15mm x 15mm x 25mm
> 
> I haven't been able to get much turning done over the last couple weeks, but turned a piece of the honeycomb last night and will try to post a picture tonite.
> 
> Mike B
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What speed did you turn it at?
Click to expand...


1240rpm


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## healeydays

And here it is.  This is one of my off white blanks.

It is a sierra blank 

What I did was:
.  Cut the blank in half
.  I drilled it on my lathe
.  Epoxied the tube in and waited 2 days
.  Took blank corners down on lathe to get close to round
.  Finished the blank with my turning tool
.  gave it a final sand and polish
There it is...


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## edstreet

StuartCovey said:


> Dan Masshardt said:
> 
> 
> 
> we're you rounding it from square with the skew?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, I had sanded round and then started using the skew but it still chipped enough to make the blank unusable, so I than started experimenting with other tools.
Click to expand...


Am wondering if you had tried any more on this.  Am also wondering what you used to round the blank with?  

I see the description has yet to be updated or the typo's corrected and that speaks volumes in itself as to helping fix the problem.

There is a few methods that involve angle grinders, hand drills and the like that could clear things right up and without dredging this into a carbide flame war I do have to point out that the carbide suggestions is laughable at best as for being supportive of the problems mentioned in this thread.


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## StuartCovey

edstreet said:


> Am wondering if you had tried any more on this.  Am also wondering what you used to round the blank with?
> 
> I see the description has yet to be updated or the typo's corrected and that speaks volumes in itself as to helping fix the problem.
> 
> There is a few methods that involve angle grinders, hand drills and the like that could clear things right up and without dredging this into a carbide flame war I do have to point out that the carbide suggestions is laughable at best as for being supportive of the problems mentioned in this thread.



What exactly do you mean?

No I haven't had a chance to try another one.  I did receive the blanks from Mike but I've been too busy filling orders to experiment.


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## OKLAHOMAN

edstreet said:


> StuartCovey said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dan Masshardt said:
> 
> 
> 
> we're you rounding it from square with the skew?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, I had sanded round and then started using the skew but it still chipped enough to make the blank unusable, so I than started experimenting with other tools.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Am wondering if you had tried any more on this.  Am also wondering what you used to round the blank with?
> 
> I see the description has yet to be updated or the typo's corrected and that speaks volumes in itself as to helping fix the problem.
> 
> There is a few methods that involve angle grinders, hand drills and the like that could clear things right up and without dredging this into a carbide flame war I do have to point out that the carbide suggestions is laughable at best as for being supportive of the problems mentioned in this thread.
Click to expand...


Ed, sometimes there are things way beyond our control, so your statement  "speaking volumes in itself as to fixing the problem" just rubbed me very wrong. My site is hosted by Site Kreator and at present and for the last 4 days we are not able to edit the site. I have calls in to them and hope to have the problem solved on Monday. This is one of the reasons I will be changing host on the 1st of January.  
On every blank I ship there is a label attached  with instruction that work for us. Also a one time replacement guarantee on a blank that the customer destroys, no matter how during turning or drilling. 
We suggest, drilling slow and do not heat the blank during drilling, do not drill all the way through as just like in other type of acrylics you can break through and split the ends. As the Nomex cells can be caught on the edge of your tool we also recommend you knock off the corners of the blank either by sanding it on a belt sander or on your lathe with 100 grit sand paper. I have found that if I use a round carbide cutter and take very light cuts that I do not need to round first but I have been using a Rotundo carbide tool for years.
Use the tool that you know you can take as light of cuts as possible until the blanks are evenly round. 

All of this will be on the site when we can edit . It definitely will be on the new site.


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## edstreet

OKLAHOMAN said:


> edstreet said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StuartCovey said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dan Masshardt said:
> 
> 
> 
> we're you rounding it from square with the skew?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, I had sanded round and then started using the skew but it still chipped enough to make the blank unusable, so I than started experimenting with other tools.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Am wondering if you had tried any more on this.  Am also wondering what you used to round the blank with?
> 
> I see the description has yet to be updated or the typo's corrected and that speaks volumes in itself as to helping fix the problem.
> 
> There is a few methods that involve angle grinders, hand drills and the like that could clear things right up and without dredging this into a carbide flame war I do have to point out that the carbide suggestions is laughable at best as for being supportive of the problems mentioned in this thread.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Ed, sometimes there are things way beyond our control, so your statement  "speaking volumes in itself as to fixing the problem" just rubbed me very wrong. My site is hosted by Site Kreator and at present and for the last 4 days we are not able to edit the site. I have calls in to them and hope to have the problem solved on Monday. This is one of the reasons I will be changing host on the 1st of January.
> On every blank I ship there is a label attached  with instruction that work for us. Also a one time replacement guarantee on a blank that the customer destroys, no matter how during turning or drilling.
> We suggest, drilling slow and do not heat the blank during drilling, do not drill all the way through as just like in other type of acrylics you can break through and split the ends. As the Nomex cells can be caught on the edge of your tool we also recommend you knock off the corners of the blank either by sanding it on a belt sander or on your lathe with 100 grit sand paper. I have found that if I use a round carbide cutter and take very light cuts that I do not need to round first but I have been using a Rotundo carbide tool for years.
> Use the tool that you know you can take as light of cuts as possible until the blanks are evenly round.
> 
> All of this will be on the site when we can edit . It definitely will be on the new site.
Click to expand...


Relax, breathe, no need to get defensive at all on this or get worked up in any way.  This is a very simple logic issue.


Lets review my initial question which I have been trying to figure out to help Stuart with what he is going through.



edstreet said:


> So has anyone confirmed what the real problem is here?  Looking over this several times I see some mention 'no problems' and others say they have had the same problem.  So in short is this a blank material problem, a skill set problem or a method problem?



Rational thinking tells us if the problem is with the blank itself then there would be some type of updated information be it a change in the blank itself (unknown), how it's listed on the website (no change), some type of notice there is a problem (no), other reports with of cases (yes), mention of angle grinders/hand drills/impact wrenches (yes).  

Also if it is a skill set problem then we would see postings like I made involving angle grinders/hand drills/impact wrenches (yes); also we would see post involving carbide tools (yes), belt sanders (yes), post detailing more howto on methods (no), multiple multiple posts on methods and specific techniques that would yield good results (no)

Also as indicated in post #24, dated 11/29 by Stuart one of, if not the main, problem was revealed to us, 16 days ago.  I was mostly checking in to see if there was any more updates to this and to find out what has been done for the problem.  I was also curious to hear from the original poster to find out the results, which we got a response in post #44.


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## OKLAHOMAN

edstreet said:


> OKLAHOMAN said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> edstreet said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StuartCovey said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dan Masshardt said:
> 
> 
> 
> we're you rounding it from square with the skew?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, I had sanded round and then started using the skew but it still chipped enough to make the blank unusable, so I than started experimenting with other tools.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Am wondering if you had tried any more on this.  Am also wondering what you used to round the blank with?
> 
> I see the description has yet to be updated or the typo's corrected and that speaks volumes in itself as to helping fix the problem.
> 
> There is a few methods that involve angle grinders, hand drills and the like that could clear things right up and without dredging this into a carbide flame war I do have to point out that the carbide suggestions is laughable at best as for being supportive of the problems mentioned in this thread.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Ed, sometimes there are things way beyond our control, so your statement  "speaking volumes in itself as to fixing the problem" just rubbed me very wrong. My site is hosted by Site Kreator and at present and for the last 4 days we are not able to edit the site. I have calls in to them and hope to have the problem solved on Monday. This is one of the reasons I will be changing host on the 1st of January.
> On every blank I ship there is a label attached  with instruction that work for us. Also a one time replacement guarantee on a blank that the customer destroys, no matter how during turning or drilling.
> We suggest, drilling slow and do not heat the blank during drilling, do not drill all the way through as just like in other type of acrylics you can break through and split the ends. As the Nomex cells can be caught on the edge of your tool we also recommend you knock off the corners of the blank either by sanding it on a belt sander or on your lathe with 100 grit sand paper. I have found that if I use a round carbide cutter and take very light cuts that I do not need to round first but I have been using a Rotundo carbide tool for years.
> Use the tool that you know you can take as light of cuts as possible until the blanks are evenly round.
> 
> All of this will be on the site when we can edit . It definitely will be on the new site.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Relax, breathe, no need to get defensive at all on this or get worked up in any way.  This is a very simple logic issue.
> 
> 
> Lets review my initial question which I have been trying to figure out to help Stuart with what he is going through.
> 
> 
> 
> edstreet said:
> 
> 
> 
> So has anyone confirmed what the real problem is here?  Looking over this several times I see some mention 'no problems' and others say they have had the same problem.  So in short is this a blank material problem, a skill set problem or a method problem?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Rational thinking tells us if the problem is with the blank itself then there would be some type of updated information be it a change in the blank itself (unknown), how it's listed on the website (no change), some type of notice there is a problem (no), other reports with of cases (yes), mention of angle grinders/hand drills/impact wrenches (yes).
> 
> Also if it is a skill set problem then we would see postings like I made involving angle grinders/hand drills/impact wrenches (yes); also we would see post involving carbide tools (yes), belt sanders (yes), post detailing more howto on methods (no), multiple multiple posts on methods and specific techniques that would yield good results (no)
> 
> Also as indicated in post #24, dated 11/29 by Stuart one of, if not the main, problem was revealed to us, 16 days ago.  I was mostly checking in to see if there was any more updates to this and to find out what has been done for the problem.  I was also curious to hear from the original poster to find out the results, which we got a response in post #44.
Click to expand...


Nobody got worked up or defensive only pointed what you said was offensive. As to no post detailing how to on methods read on page 1 posts # 2,5,10,14, on page 2  #1,2, and 3 , again there are multiple post on different methods but you said there are none your quote
"multiple multiple posts on methods and specific techniques that would yield good results (no)" post #2,10,12,14 on page 1 and post 1,2 and3 on page 2


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## healeydays

Guys,

          I haven't been getting into this discussion today, but I guess I have to.  As I and others have stated you need sharp tools, a light touch and you should pre-round these blanks and at a minimum take the corners off them.  We have had people that have turned these with no issues and others that are challenged.

Mike B


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## WriteON

deleted and moved


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