# Interesting...PSI kicking mud at Timberbits



## Carl Fisher (Jun 13, 2013)

I'm not on either side and I like both vendors, but thought this was interesting.

Not sure how many of you are on any of the Facebook pen groups, but caught a post this morning from one of the PSI designers slamming Timberbits for a "cheap knock off" of the bolt action kits.  He had some pretty nasty things to say about the quality of the kits.


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## brownsfn2 (Jun 13, 2013)

What are the Facebook pen groups?  I would love to join.


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## mikespenturningz (Jun 13, 2013)

Hey Carl can you expound on the facebook pen groups. I don't see anything when I google it?


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## Carl Fisher (Jun 13, 2013)

Pen Makers and Pen Turning.

Not sure if they are invite only, but if you PM me your facebook name, I'll see if I can send an invite from the groups.


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## Dan Masshardt (Jun 13, 2013)

The important question is: timberbits has a bolt action??  I'm gonna go check that out!


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## Smitty37 (Jun 13, 2013)

Carl Fisher said:


> Pen Makers and Pen Turning.
> 
> Not sure if they are invite only, but if you PM me your facebook name, I'll see if I can send an invite from the groups.


LeRoy Smith


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## Carl Fisher (Jun 13, 2013)

Looks like you have to accept my friend request in order for me to send the invite to the groups.


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## Chatham PenWorks (Jun 13, 2013)

Carl Fisher said:


> Looks like you have to accept my friend request in order for me to send the invite to the groups.



I just went to both of the group pages, and there is a "join group" tab at the top of each. Click it, and it sends a request to the admins.


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## Carl Fisher (Jun 13, 2013)

There you go


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## Chatham PenWorks (Jun 13, 2013)

I find it quite humorous that someone from PSI seems to be a bit perturbed by another company knocking off one of there products. How often have they done that to people here? I understand if the quality is subpar, but otherwise we're talking goose and gander.


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## Smitty37 (Jun 13, 2013)

*Interesting*

Since PSI is not above "knocking off" items developed by others themselves i.e. circuit  board blanks and others, I find it interesting that they would complain.  I also find it interesting that the complaint seems to have been triggered by one phone call .... I don't see anywhere on Timberbits site where they are claiming to be a PSI reseller or implying that their kits are identical to PSI.  

BTW - Rizheng is also offering a bolt action kit in several finishes.

PSI Claims the kit is exclusive to them(based on their complaint it is not) and a patent is pending.


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## LagniappeRob (Jun 13, 2013)

Smitty37 said:


> PSI Claims the kit is exclusive to them(based on their complaint it is not) and a patent is pending.



The website now says "Patented" which indicated the patent was issued. If not they're misrepresenting it. It should read "Patent Pending". But I'm not having much luck finding an issued patent in the USPTO database... makes me wonder.

Edit-   It was indeed patented. It's a design patent D682,352  awarded just last month 5/14/13.  You can see the patent for yourself, go http://patft.uspto.gov/netahtml/PTO/search-bool.html and put in the patent #.


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## Whaler (Jun 13, 2013)

That post on Facebook has been eliminated. I did order some of those kits from Timberbits and will compare them with the PSI kit and post the results.


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## Carl Fisher (Jun 13, 2013)

That it has.  I think he realized that he sort of negated his original post by saying that they all buy from the same suppliers and the same platings and in fact was possibly sending business to Timberbits.  

Don't think that was well thought out.


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## Chatham PenWorks (Jun 13, 2013)

Carl Fisher said:


> That it has.  I think he realized that he sort of negated his original post by saying that they all buy from the same suppliers and the same platings and in fact was possibly sending business to Timberbits.
> 
> Don't think that was well thought out.



Oops!


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## thewishman (Jun 13, 2013)

Just curious, does a US patent apply to goods sold in Australia?


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## beck3906 (Jun 13, 2013)

If it's been patented, will there a problem with bringing in items nor supplied by PSI?


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## Russianwolf (Jun 13, 2013)

thewishman said:


> Just curious, does a US patent apply to goods sold in Australia?



Office of Policy and External Affairs - Enforcement


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## ed4copies (Jun 13, 2013)

I believe the answer is, "Don't bring it into the USA".  If your product violates a US patent, as I understand it, Customs can confiscate the shipment.

I would be VERY interested in feedback from any attorneys who KNOW whether this is the case and what would trigger such confiscation.

My thanks to anyone who really KNOWS an answer!!

Ed


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## ed4copies (Jun 13, 2013)

The U. S. Customs Service  is responsible for combating the flow of infringing goods into the  United States. It has statutory authority to decide substantive issues  of trademark and copyright infringement, and also works with the US Department of Justice and the Federal Bureau of Investigation on domestic intellectual property matters.

Quote from US Patent and Trademark website.


Since the US Customs has the authority to determine trademark and patent infringement, what "triggers" such an action??


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## brownsfn2 (Jun 13, 2013)

When your name is on the box they flag the shipment Ed.  

"Exotic blanks"??  Sounds like a banned substance to me. 

(Could not resist)


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## islandturner (Jun 13, 2013)

Now let me see.... if I want ten gold bolt action pen kits, should I buy them from PSI or Timberbits? Lets do the math...

PSI
10 X $13.95 = $139.95
+ $31.25 (least expensive shipping offered to Canada - priority post)
+ BC Tax of 12% = $20.49 (on both the kits and shipping charge)
Total: $191.69 (or $19.17 each)


Timberbits
10 X $9 = $90
Shipping: free (by post -- approx 10 business days)
Total: $90.00 (or $9 each)

The Timberbits order is small enough that it won't be tagged at the post office for BC Tax. At over $170 (for the kits and shipping), the PSI order likely will be....

Hmmmmm...


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## Chatham PenWorks (Jun 13, 2013)

islandturner said:


> Now let me see.... if I want ten gold bolt action pen kits, should I buy them from PSI or Timberbits? Lets do the math...
> 
> PSI
> 10 X $13.95 = $139.95
> ...



That's a world of difference. I'm curious if they are the same though. If one is a cheap knockoff, and the quality is not there, they aren't event worth the cheaper price.


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## islandturner (Jun 13, 2013)

Chatham PenWorks said:


> islandturner said:
> 
> 
> > Now let me see.... if I want ten gold bolt action pen kits, should I buy them from PSI or Timberbits? Lets do the math...
> ...


 
Very true! 


I've bought over a hundred kits from David and never had a bad one. So I'll be surprised if there is any issue with quality with these. It will be interesting to hear what others think of them...


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## Dan Masshardt (Jun 13, 2013)

The bummer is that timberbits doesn't have gun metal.  That's the only one I order and seems like its the one people want.


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## Haynie (Jun 13, 2013)

Found this reference in the patent description: hidetoshi nakayama bolt action.

I google image searched it and SWEET!!!


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## Smitty37 (Jun 13, 2013)

thewishman said:


> Just curious, does a US patent apply to goods sold in Australia?


 The short answer is no...unless it is covered by a treaty between the two countries.


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## Smitty37 (Jun 13, 2013)

beck3906 said:


> If it's been patented, will there a problem with bringing in items nor supplied by PSI?


Probably not, but there could easily be an issue for US vendors selling them if PSI enforces their patent rights.


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## ed4copies (Jun 13, 2013)

Smitty37 said:


> Since PSI is not above "knocking off" items developed by others themselves i.e. circuit  board blanks and others, I find it interesting that they would complain.  I also find it interesting that the complaint seems to have been triggered by one phone call .... I don't see anywhere on Timberbits site where they are claiming to be a PSI reseller or implying that their kits are identical to PSI.
> 
> BTW - *Rizheng is also offering a bolt action kit in several finishes.*
> 
> PSI Claims the kit is exclusive to them(based on their complaint it is not) and a patent is pending.



Coincidentally, Timberbits offers the same platings as Rizheng!!  Even more amazing, NEITHER chose the Gunmetal, which is the most popular.  One might guess that the same company was the source for both "vendors".


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## Dan Masshardt (Jun 13, 2013)

Haynie said:


> Found this reference in the patent description: hidetoshi nakayama bolt action.
> 
> I google image searched it and SWEET!!!



Sounds like the patent is held by someone other than psi directly?   Maybe the manufacturer told them they had exclusivity but just in USA?


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## Smitty37 (Jun 13, 2013)

ed4copies said:


> I believe the answer is, "Don't bring it into the USA". If your product violates a US patent, as I understand it, Customs can confiscate the shipment.
> 
> I would be VERY interested in feedback from any attorneys who KNOW whether this is the case and what would trigger such confiscation.
> 
> ...


That would be interesting to know --- my take on it is this:
1. Enforcement would be difficult - since most of the imports of pen kits the customs documents say "pen kits" or "pen parts" without specifying the retail name.  

2. Most of the pen kits/parts imported are not protected by US Patents so even if the shipment is opened by customs (most are not) the agent would have to know exactly what to look for to determine if it was an infringement or just another pen kit.

3. I can't imagine that there would ever be enough of those specific kits imported for the US Government to begin searching for them on their own.
Even though nearly all pen kits sold by USA Vendors are foreign made, I doubt that the total quantity imported amounts to more than a blip considering all imports.  Most pen sellers import the whole assembled pens not just kits.

4. I can't even imagine what would "trigger" customs to start looking for something like this, unless it was a specific complaint made against items to a specific vendor or from a specific vendor.

Just as an aside, Dayacom lists a patent number (they must be Taiwanese) for many of their items.  

It is also interesting knowing from personal experience, that patents can be granted that won't stand up when companies try to enforce them.  It happened frequently in the electronics industry which is why nearly all electronics manufacturers have cross licensing agreements.


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