# Kitless/Componentless Guides



## jyreene (Aug 24, 2014)

Okay all. I know I'm a rookie at this but I had an idea. If I were to start and compline a document who would be willing to contribute or correct (why I said I'm a rookie) a basic guide on custom pens. It would be a living breathing document to start.


----------



## ed4copies (Aug 24, 2014)

"If you build it, they will come"


----------



## billspenfactory (Aug 24, 2014)

In Two's


----------



## billspenfactory (Aug 24, 2014)

Then you will have a boat load of them


----------



## mark james (Aug 24, 2014)

I can't contribute...  But would love to read!!!


----------



## mbroberg (Aug 24, 2014)

Would this be a topic suited for the IAP WIKI?


----------



## jyreene (Aug 24, 2014)

mbroberg said:


> Would this be a topic suited for the IAP WIKI?



Yes. Yes it would. I honestly never remember about that.


----------



## Ligget (Aug 26, 2014)

I prefer kit pens but would like to read also!


----------



## skiprat (Aug 26, 2014)

I wanna see what a 'Componentless' pen looks like. If a pen doesn't have any components, then how do you find it???:wink:


----------



## duncsuss (Aug 26, 2014)

skiprat said:


> I wanna see what a 'Componentless' pen looks like. If a pen doesn't have any components, then how do you find it???:wink:



It would be the ultimate demonstrator ... :biggrin:


----------



## Dalecamino (Aug 26, 2014)

No. It looks like this one.


----------



## InvisibleMan (Aug 26, 2014)

dalecamino said:


> No. It looks like this one.



Mr Camino,

That is front page material.

Best regards,
InvisibleMan


----------



## skiprat (Aug 26, 2014)

I agree Lyle, it's his best work yet !!!:biggrin:


----------



## scotian12 (Aug 26, 2014)

Could we go back to what jyreene is suggesting. A number of people have signed up for his group buy on tap and dies and if most are like me we would appreciate some help in getting started on making component less pens. Is there a way to get this started?  Darrell


----------



## MikeL (Aug 26, 2014)

I am on my fourth kitless. I am a rookie and could contribute to the cause some by confessing some of my rookie mistakes if it would help others.


----------



## jyreene (Aug 26, 2014)

I am on it. It will be slow going. In the mean time the library article is what got me started. I at least created the page on the wiki....that's enough right? You all got it from here?


----------



## skiprat (Aug 26, 2014)

Mmmm, no offense Darrell...but there are many members here, me included, that take a lot of time and go to some trouble to explain how they do things. 
I can name you ten such pen makers that have just given up trying to help and slowly but surely left IAP. 
Instead of following those pen makers in their threads, and perhaps showing some appreciation in their threads, do you now want us to re-write everything  and put the info nicely in one place to make it even easier for those that can't be bothered to put a bit of effort in??

If there is one thing I cannot stand, it's the comment / demand I read all too often here these days.....'Show me how you did that!!' With no please, thank you or even a 'kiss my arse'

This is the second time in as many weeks where someone has tried to chastise me because I have made a comment that wasn't directly on topic. Well sir, you may remember that it was my off topic comment that suggested the option of the  double start tap and die in the first place.

Good night.


----------



## Dan Masshardt (Aug 26, 2014)

I doubt his comment was intended to be all that critical.  

I didn't perceive it to be so anyway. 

I've been on iap daily for well over a year and it's not clear to me that there is an overwhelming amount of practical tips and info about getting started with basic kitless pens. 

I'm sure that the info is out there in past threads. Sometimes we need a little refresher on where it's at.  

I for one, appreciate anytime anyone shares tips and techniques and I never expect that I have a right to demand that information.  

There are many of us who do appreciate info from more advanced pen makers, although I might not say so as often as I should.


----------



## mredburn (Aug 26, 2014)

http://content.penturners.org/library/general_reference/taps_dies_kitless.pdf

bottom 2 pages might help


----------



## Dan Masshardt (Aug 26, 2014)

I've not made a kitless pen yet but have watched this video a couple times and found it helpful. 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4DQna36uThA


----------



## mredburn (Aug 26, 2014)

There have been comments in the past about not handing a step by step instruction sheet to someone who wants to go kitless. The rational was if you are that far along in making pens you need to take the time to figure some of it out on your own so that you learned from that experience not just followed an instruction sheet and had no Idea why you did the steps you did and in the order you did them in. The thought was that if you had enough skills and experience you could work through it. When you hit a bump and asked a question plenty of members would answer.


----------



## Dalecamino (Aug 26, 2014)

There are tutorials in the library. There, I said it. Although it bothers some members when we say this but, what else is the library for? And, why did we bother writing these articles if we still are expected to take OUR time to usher those who want it made easy for them? 

I was fortunate to be in the right place at, the right time and, got some visual instructions (a lot) but, soon after I, along with a few others started discussions about this way of making pens and, they are still in the forums. Mostly in the ADVANCED PEN MAKING forum. I can give you a hint as to where to start looking. I posted my first kitless pen in the SOYP forum 9-02-2011 Also, if/when I stumbled, I asked someone for help and, always got help. 

But, I'm pretty confident that, someone will answer to the call. Just not ME. Sorry fellas! Good luck!


----------



## plano_harry (Aug 26, 2014)

Those videos (Dan's reference), Mike's article and BigShed's article were all I used to get started.  I am hardly qualified to give advice at this stage, but I think all the information is basically there.  Not sure what I could add, but always appreciative of the articles posted.


----------



## MikeL (Aug 26, 2014)

*It's all good*

I owe a lot to IAP and the members that teach and inspire. I have read and watched everything I can find on kitless pen making a couple of times. I have combined resources and made my own notes based on others generous willingness to share. However, all the reading did not keep me from making rookie mistakes. People can ask questions ahead of time or share mistakes after the fact and solicit input or provide input. It's all good. IAP is awesome and it is because of the members. My rookie mistake that I don't recall reading anywhere happened on my current kitless that is still a work inprogress. I am making another wood kitless with ebonite ends. The cap end has a clip that is fastened with a screw-in finial and a notched out area for the clip. I shaped, drilled, threaded,and notched. Once the clip was a good fit,I took the clip out and screwed the finial back on without the clip. Put the cap (upper barrel) on a closed end mandrel with the idea of shaping and sanding so the seam would be seamless. I turned to final size, sanded, and polished and....I then could not unscrew the finial. Torque from turning and sanding made it impossible to unscrew with fingers or perhaps heat from the process fused the parts. None-the-less,I had to use pliers to unscrew which screwed up the finish on the beautiful seamless ebonite. I had to re-accomplish the finial. However, this time I tried putting a paste wax on the mating surfaces before screwing on the finial. Then turned, sanded, polished all over...the cap unscrewed without issue. Maybe others were able to avoid this issue because they have more common sense than me. But, here is a tip for rookie kitless makers--use wax or some other type of material between the finial and the rest of the cap end before turning and shaping to final size. It will save you some waste on expensive ebonite. Now you have my contribution for anyone with the same or less common sense than me.


----------



## scotian12 (Aug 26, 2014)

One of the articles that I found useful in the past was the tutorial written by George Butcher (Texatdurango) called Making a fountain pen section. This is dated 11-10-2011 in a thread started by George in advanced pen making. Perhaps this could be added to the IAP WIKI on this subject.  Darrell


----------



## InvisibleMan (Aug 26, 2014)

MikeL said:


> I owe a lot to IAP and the members that teach and inspire. I have read and watched everything I can find on kitless pen making a couple of times. I have combined resources and made my own notes based on others generous willingness to share. However, all the reading did not keep me from making rookie mistakes. People can ask questions ahead of time or share mistakes after the fact and solicit input or provide input. It's all good. IAP is awesome and it is because of the members. My rookie mistake that I don't recall reading anywhere happened on my current kitless that is still a work inprogress. I am making another wood kitless with ebonite ends. The cap end has a clip that is fastened with a screw-in finial and a notched out area for the clip. I shaped, drilled, threaded,and notched. Once the clip was a good fit,I took the clip out and screwed the finial back on without the clip. Put the cap (upper barrel) on a closed end mandrel with the idea of shaping and sanding so the seam would be seamless. I turned to final size, sanded, and polished and....I then could not unscrew the finial. Torque from turning and sanding made it impossible to unscrew with fingers or perhaps heat from the process fused the parts. None-the-less,I had to use pliers to unscrew which screwed up the finish on the beautiful seamless ebonite. I had to re-accomplish the finial. However, this time I tried putting a paste wax on the mating surfaces before screwing on the finial. Then turned, sanded, polished all over...the cap unscrewed without issue. Maybe others were able to avoid this issue because they have more common sense than me. But, here is a tip for rookie kitless makers--use wax or some other type of material between the finial and the rest of the cap end before turning and shaping to final size. It will save you some waste on expensive ebonite. Now you have my contribution for anyone with the same or less common sense than me.



If this happens (not to me, because I've never had this happen almost every time:biggrin  you can wrap a rubber band around the finial to get good grip on both the part and with your fingers.  It helps, and I've never yet not been able to get a stubborn finial off that way.


----------



## MikeL (Aug 26, 2014)

If this happens (not to me, because I've never had this happen almost every time:biggrin  you can wrap a rubber band around the finial to get good grip on both the part and with your fingers.  It helps, and I've never yet not been able to get a stubborn finial off that way.[/QUOTE]

I must have a weak grip. I literally snuck my wife's rubber lid opener into the shop before I resorted to pliers. The end of the finial is tapered which made it difficult to grip. But, the wax was super easy.


----------



## ChrisN (Aug 26, 2014)

I did start a tips & tricks thread, but it didn't get too much attention. Maybe I should promote it like some here have been known to do...:biggrin:

*Share your wisdom here:*
​ http://www.penturners.org/forum/f56/kitless-pens-tips-tricks-techniques-125330/​


----------



## jyreene (Aug 27, 2014)

Mostly this is because I have seen a bunch of different threads and wanted to consolidate them. The wiki helps that and I will do my best to site all posts I find on it. But also it will take me a while to do. Busy times ahead for me planning the Marine Corps Ball.


----------



## Twissy (Aug 27, 2014)

I started custom pen making a couple of years back. Why? Because I wanted the challenge, and had designs in my head that there was no other way to achieve them. Part of that challenge was figuring out how to achieve the required end result. Most of it was intuitive, but I must confess that George's article on the section making was what gave me the impetus to give it a go.
My point is, there are already enough snippets of information available if you are passionate enough to look.


----------



## Timebandit (Aug 27, 2014)

I agree with what others have said about the reasoning behind this. There is plenty of info out there, and even tutorials. Georges was the one that got me started, even though i didnt do much of the same that he did, i just needed a, " Oh...ok, i see now, thats easy....but im going to do it this way, " moment. I do many things different than what others do in their tutorials. But the stuff is there, someone just needs to compile it if you want it in one area, and i see that Ty is on it. The problem is, is that its not all in thread form. Most of the info is in post form, within the threads themselves. Feel free to look through my threads of pens that ive posted.....people ask questions and i answer, so a lot of my info is already out there.

I for one, have to much info to sit down and write all of that, and not enough sense to just pull little snippets out of it to give little hints here and there. Nor do i want to do a tutorial. I like teaching, but not in the written word. I have been very generous to open up my shop and my home to several members of the forum in the past and was more than willing to teach. I also answer any questions that anyone has asked. I feel that you can use what is here on IAP to get you going, and if you need help on something specific, feel free to ask, and I/People will help. There are a million ways to skin that cat! Find your way!

PS: That was not an invitation for everyone wanting to learn to make kitless to hit me up for lessons, so dont blow me up with a thousand PM's please. LOL! Im here to help, but I also have a life, and cant spend all my time teaching everyone. I got bills to pay and I dont get paid for teachin :biggrin:


----------



## lwalper (Aug 27, 2014)

I'm sure there's a ton of info already amassed, but getting it one WIKI, if possible, would seem to be helpful. I tend to have trouble finding instructionals so having a "comprehensive guide" would be useful, for me at least.


----------



## Joey-Nieves (Aug 27, 2014)

Well I for one have been known to be a pest, when it comes to asking questions (if in doubt ask Mike or Ed).  The truth is the info is out there, but it is not easily in order, or it's not properly labeled or published in a style different than some of our learning styles.  The biggest problem I have found is that when someone writes on article or makes a video they don't follow a standardised  terminology.  Has anyone Googled the parts of a section? 
The most challenging part oh my research is finding the thread sizes for the component kit sections in the market.  For example everyone knows the el grande section thread is M10 x 1, but other than that nobody hardly mentions other kits, partly because there are so many names for the same kits.  Mike has posted some useful information, but I'm hoping to do some more cross reference on this someday, because even though advanced pen turning is about making our own grip(is this the proper term?), sometimes it is easier to start with the less complicated parts first or simply just use what we have.
Anyway IAP is the best source of information and turners are the best people to hangout with, so I will continue to pesterize and when I growup to be like Mike, I will alse share my knowledge like he does.


----------



## Timebandit (Aug 27, 2014)

lwalper said:


> I'm sure there's a ton of info already amassed, but getting it one WIKI, if possible, would seem to be helpful. I tend to have trouble finding instructionals so having a "comprehensive guide" would be useful, for me at least.



Hi Leslie...The thing is, as you said, there is a ton, and it is not that easy for anyone to find, unless they take the time to just browse around. Its not all Instructionals and " Here is how to do this" threads. Actually there are less of those than just information contained within hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of threads and posts spanning many years. So while your waiting for someone to go through that many threads and compile that info in a "Comprehensive Guide", its going to be a long time my friend, take some time to just browse. You will probably be making pens before it is ever amassed in one location for you. Look at members threads that are doing what you like, there are usually people asking questions in those threads, and they have been answered. Or if they havent and you see something and have a question on it, ask in those threads, or start a new thread. As has been said, there are a few bare bones tutorials to get you started in the library, the rest can be learned through questions on the forum. And there is no one way to do things, almost every person making these pens does something just a little different. Most of us are here to help, we learned here, someone helped us, so just ask and you shall receive. 

What you arent going to get from most people though is, drill this deep, this is this long, specifics of every little twist and turn. There are thousands of ways to make a pen, and every component that you use in your pen has to be taken into consideration, and you are going to need many drills, and different lengths and diamaters for all these parts to work together correctly and be pleasing to the eye. Its much more brain work than kit pens. Your going to have to put your thinking cap on and get creative. 

Dont be afraid to ask questions!!!!


----------



## Timebandit (Aug 27, 2014)

Joey-Nieves said:


> Well I for one have been known to be a pest, when it comes to asking questions (if in doubt ask Mike or Ed).  The truth is the info is out there, but it is not easily in order, or it's not properly labeled or published in a style different than some of our learning styles.  The biggest problem I have found is that when someone writes on article or makes a video they don't follow a standardised  terminology.  Has anyone Googled the parts of a section?
> The most challenging part oh my research is finding the thread sizes for the component kit sections in the market.  For example everyone knows the el grande section thread is M10 x 1, but other than that nobody hardly mentions other kits, partly because there are so many names for the same kits.  Mike has posted some useful information, but I'm hoping to do some more cross reference on this someday, because even though advanced pen turning is about making our own grip(is this the proper term?), sometimes it is easier to start with the less complicated parts first or simply just use what we have.
> Anyway IAP is the best source of information and turners are the best people to hangout with, so I will continue to pesterize and when I growup to be like Mike, I will alse share my knowledge like he does.



I have found the best way to learn the terminology, is to study vintage pens. There are many books on the market to teach you this, and they use the correct terms for components. People can call them what they want, but most things i have seen made here are no different in terms of components than vintage pens. Everything stems from vintage pens. So i call things what they did back then.

Its not because of the different names for kits at all. You wont find every size thread on the market unless someone measures them and posts them here. This has been said many times, i think i said it in the group buy thread recently, is that all of these taps and dies that have been purchased over the last several years are decendents of the El Grande. The original 12mm tap and die fit the El Grande. The El Grande uses 10mm for the front section, and the El Grande front section is available seperatly from the kit for cheap, unlike pretty much any other kit on the market, so you could buy a premade El grande section, buy a 10mm tap to fit it and 12mm Tap and die and there you go. I, as well as Mike Redburn recently posted a list of taps and dies, again i believe i posted it in the group buy thread, its the same as Mikes, that has some other kits thread sizes on them. Other than that, no one knows, so that information isnt available to you.


----------



## Displaced Canadian (Aug 28, 2014)

There is a lot of info on how to make pens here. It's true that it's rather spread around. To me it was fun sorting out the process for myself. If we put ALL the info in one place it might be too much for one to take in. When I started down the custom/ kitless/ component/ pen/ insert your favorite name for them here, road there was some (OK a lot) of trial and error. I didn't mind, to me it was fun. It would have been nice to have some basic info spoon fed to me to avoid some mistakes that cost money. Example, I wish I would have read Skiprat's article on taps and dies before I spent money on a set that now I never use. The worst part was I knew the article existed I thought that because I was just starting out I wouldn't need that kind of info until I really got into it. I think it would be good to have something to point people to these already existing articles and some basic info on what to take into account when designing your pen. What basic tools to get and after that don't be afraid to ask questions and as your experience grows to answer questions as well. Short version, I like the basic idea just don't overcomplicate it.


----------



## Joey-Nieves (Aug 28, 2014)

Well I've found that that threads are really a mater of opinion, with strong arguments in favor and against. I consulted a pen wizard and he gave me some advise:

"[FONT=&quot]The reason triple thread taps were  used was because the manufacturers of the  kits used triple taps and so the members at IAP originally copied that. Your right the arguments for which threading is subjective. There is no set in stone standard. There seems to be a higher consensus on the triple leads and I think that the customers have come to expect it because its what was we  offered.  In other words  we set the standard and now that's kind of what they expect."

So the questions us newbies should be asking are:
1) What is the ideal wall thickness between the section thread an the Tap threads?
2) When Making end finials, although the thread size is subjective, What size should we avoid?
3) In the mechanics of the threads, When using single start taps and dies, what is the difference between M_ x .5 and M_ x .75? witch is the more ideal?
4) Can a fountain pen be made with a M10 thread Cap?  What should be the section thread size? (I know I relates to question #1 but a specific answer works much better).
In all, I ask questions to the pros, because I can't afford to make costly mistakes, I need to go to the  next level in order to solidify my business.  No amount of coaching will substitute talent,  but the kindness and selfless teachings of those who have gone trough this transition are immensely appreciated by us newbies (moguls, LOL). 

I am greatfull for all your help a will try to reply further in this discussion while I'm at the beach this weekend (LOL):wink::biggrin: with my girls. 
Joey

[/FONT]


----------



## mredburn (Aug 28, 2014)

1- The thickness between an inner thread and an outer thread, when you have  a tapped hole inside a threaded tenon for the cap, can vary with the material your using to make the parts. Metal can be thinner, plastics have to be thicker or they can break, you may have to experiment with different materials.

3- the .7,.5,.8,1 are the pitch count or in metric the distance between the tips of the threads.   THere are many different reasons to use a different pitch on a part. One consideration is that the bottom tip of the outside thread may be cut to close to the outer tip of an inside thread. A look at the cross section may show a weak area where the 2 cut threads get really close to each other.  In that case a smaller pitch will help to keep the parts from breaking.  This becomes critical in smaller diameter pens. Also since a  .5 pitch is very fine it can easily be cross threaded if your drilled hole diameter is slightly to large.  A 1mm pitch is coarser but may cause stress and rough threads from having to cut deeper into your material/part.  My personal favorite is the .75 or .8 for threads.

4- yes it can be done I do it frequently. However I have found that if your threaded hole for the refill/convertor is directly inside the cap threads that the hole needs to be threaded with an 8.4 or 8.5 tap, the convertors require a large hole to fit through than the ink cartridges. I use an 8mm or 5/16 or O drill bit and thread it with the  8.4 x.75 that Heritance Nibs use to sell.  the 8,5 x 1 will work I just dont like that rough of thread and the bottom of the threads are not formed during tapping because of the size of the hole for the convertor.  They still hold just fine.


----------



## BSea (Aug 28, 2014)

I think the problem with doing a comprehensive tutorial is that there is no consensus which way is correct.  Just like CA finishes, there are hundreds of ways to accomplish a kitless pen.  Have you ever looked at threads on doing CA finishes?  Once you get the basics down, everyone just does what works best for them.

Here's what I suggest to new kitless pen makers. In stead of asking for a comprehensive "HOW TO", just start working on one.  If you do 3 sections, and none of them work, then ask questions like: My feed won't thread into my section. I'm using a ABC bit in alumilite with a XYZ feed, but it binds about half way in.  I tried a DEF bit too, but that didn't work either. What could be the problem?

To me that shows the person is making an effort, and has reached a point where they need some help.  

So my advice to people getting into kitless is to do a kitless click as their 1st pen.  There is a great tutorial in the library from start to finish.  It doesn't involve doing a section, and it's something that almost anyone can accomplish in an afternoon.  It will get you acquainted with threading, and not cost an arm and a leg on taps & dies.  

Here's the link:http://content.penturners.org/library/pens/kitlessclickpen.pdf

If you want to start with a fountain, then do some initial planning on size, what feed, and go from there.  It's not rocket science, but it does involve some trial and error, and planning.  But so does any kitless pen. 

If you wait till you know everything in theory, you'll never do a kitless pen.


----------



## sbell111 (Aug 28, 2014)

skiprat said:


> Mmmm, no offense Darrell...but there are many members here, me included, that take a lot of time and go to some trouble to explain how they do things.
> I can name you ten such pen makers that have just given up trying to help and slowly but surely left IAP.
> Instead of following those pen makers in their threads, and perhaps showing some appreciation in their threads, do you now want us to re-write everything  and put the info nicely in one place to make it even easier for those that can't be bothered to put a bit of effort in??
> 
> ...


Funny thing, or at least I think so...

I don't really pay that much attention to who I respond to, for the most part.  I respond to posts, really, not people.  That being said, there are probably about four or five people in here that I think about their 'body of work' when I read their posts.  

The reason that I mention this is because my opinion of your general posting is so contrary to the vibe that I got from this one post.

My general take on you is that you do amazing work AND that you frequently explain in great detail how you create your art.  (It should be noted that your work is one of the few people's work around here that I would honestly apply the 'art' title to.)

However, the vibe that I got from this one post is that you hate to divulge your methods and resent when people want to discuss them.  I like to think that this one post was the outlyer and my earlier feeling about you is the norm.

That being said, I don't think that the PP was seriously expecting anyone to do what you suggest.  Those that want to work on this kind of wiki would certainly be welcome to and others would certainly love for it to happen, but I don't think that anyone's arm is being twisted here.


----------



## Joey-Nieves (Aug 28, 2014)

mredburn said:


> 1- The thickness between an inner thread and an outer thread, when you have  a tapped hole inside a threaded tenon for the cap, can vary with the material your using to make the parts. Metal can be thinner, plastics have to be thicker or they can break, you may have to experiment with different materials.
> 
> 3- the .7,.5,.8,1 are the pitch count or in metric the distance between the tips of the threads.   THere are many different reasons to use a different pitch on a part. One consideration is that the bottom tip of the outside thread may be cut to close to the outer tip of an inside thread. A look at the cross section may show a weak area where the 2 cut threads get really close to each other.  In that case a smaller pitch will help to keep the parts from breaking.  This becomes critical in smaller diameter pens. Also since a  .5 pitch is very fine it can easily be cross threaded if your drilled hole diameter is slightly to large.  A 1mm pitch is coarser but may cause stress and rough threads from having to cut deeper into your material/part.  My personal favorite is the .75 or .8 for threads.
> 
> 4- yes it can be done I do it frequently. However I have found that if your threaded hole for the refill/convertor is directly inside the cap threads that the hole needs to be threaded with an 8.4 or 8.5 tap, the convertors require a large hole to fit through than the ink cartridges. I use an 8mm or 5/16 or O drill bit and thread it with the  8.4 x.75 that Heritance Nibs use to sell.  the 8,5 x 1 will work I just dont like that rough of thread and the bottom of the threads are not formed during tapping because of the size of the hole for the convertor.  They still hold just fine.


 
Ok, so the pitch that you have found to work best is .75, would you say that 1mm wall thickness would work the less bridle materials?  

As for the 10mm pen is this what your talking about:

 
Because this is what I want to Make.


----------



## mredburn (Aug 28, 2014)

Yes it should, On the 8.4 and 10mm end I usually make that part out of metal and glue it in.
If you have 10 x.75 outer threads the inner diameter that the threads are cut to is 9.25 in theory. THe outer diameter of the inner threads are 8.4or 8.5mm  9.25 -8.5= .75 /2 =.375mm between the tips of the threads. Thats asking alot from a plastic resin to hold together.


----------

