# Another reason to hate Craftsman Tools



## jkeithrussell (Mar 22, 2009)

After researching and saving money for a few months, I finally bought an Incra Miter Express and Gauge to use with my table saw.  I set aside today for getting it set up and practicing with it, but I only ended up needing about 10 minutes.  The miter gauges on my Craftsman table saw are a little over 1/8" shy of 3/4 -- which is the minimum width for the Incra system.  I spent some time researching it today and found that Craftsman and Ryobi are about the only ones you can buy with the puny miter gauges.  Now I have to decide whether to buy a real table saw so that I can use the Incra system.  

Over the past several years, I have had to replace almost every Craftsman tool that I owned -- scroll saw, skill saw, miter saw, planer quit (haven't replaced), table saw doesn't work, a few miscellaneous things like air hoses, weed eaters, blowers, power screwdrivers.  I don't have anything branded Craftsman that has held up to even moderate use other than a cordless drill that has been pretty reliable.  In contrast, all of the better brands that I've bought to replace the Craftsman stuff have performed without the slightest problem.  

End of rant.


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## jttheclockman (Mar 22, 2009)

I think you answered your own rant. They do not call them crapsman for nothing. Can you just buy the bar and not ruin the one you have and adapt it somehow???  Just thinking out loud.


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## VisExp (Mar 22, 2009)

That is very disappointing.  Sorry to hear that Keith.  I've been switching many of my work tools over to Ridgid.  I've found them to be well made and reliable, slightly cheaper than some of the other brand names and they come with a lifetime warranty.

If you decide to get a new table saw have a look at the Ridgid.  I've seen them on close out at Home Depot.  The new model has a granite top and they seem to be trying to get rid of the older models cheap.


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## Don Farr (Mar 22, 2009)

Been there and done that.

Edit...Now I save my money and buy real tools.Sorry if this is offensive to Craftsmen tool owners. My dad retired from Sears and I have been through a lot of their tools in the past.


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## jttheclockman (Mar 22, 2009)

Craftsman tools are not even close to when craftsman made American tools and stood behind them with a warrenty that was airtight. Now you have to jump through hoops and stand on your head and then hope they will consider to honor a warrenty.


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## dalemcginnis (Mar 22, 2009)

Stopped shopping at Sears years ago because of their lousy products and worse service.


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## scotti158 (Mar 22, 2009)

*Sears Discounts*

Another thing I've noticed at Sears around here is that they'll have a price increase one week and then mark it down the following week and call it a sale!


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## keithlong (Mar 22, 2009)

Hey Keith,
About 20 years ago I had a fully set up woodworking shop. I had all Craftsman tools in it, Table Saw, Band Saw, Radial Arm Saw, Lathe, Drill Press, and Routers, and Sanders. I used this shop to make And Sell Solid Cedar Hope Chests. Made over 200 total, and I never had a problem with any of them. The table saw was heavy duty and had a cast iron top with matching extensions which allowed me cut 48" on either side of the blade.

Back then their stuff was nice and dependable. Their warranty was good. I only had a problem with the table on the bandsaw, contacted them and they sent me a new one. I later had to sell the whole shop, and the man that bought all the equipment is still today using it.

Over the past years they have in my opinion went down hill, unless you buy their industrial line tools. I have a friend that has a newer radial arm saw and he has had problems ever since he bought it. The switch on it is in the wrong place, and if you get the blade in a bind with a piece of wood, you either have to let go of the saw or the board to cut it off.

You could make a cross cut sled out of a scrap piece of plywood and make the bottom rails to fit in the slot that is for the miter guage. Just a thought.


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## grub32 (Mar 22, 2009)

Buy something new...The craftsman will break eventually anyway...Might as well sell it off while its still working before you have to scrap it...I am also a ridgid fan...I have table saw and planer...Love em!! Had them both for about 3 years...No Problems. I also have sander and routers...all great.

Oh wait the new Unisaw is coming...get that, its nice : )

Grub32


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## jkeithrussell (Mar 22, 2009)

I guess the options are to (1) return the Incra system, build a homemade sled, and keep the Crapsman; or (2) sell the Craftsman, buy a Rigid, and keep the Incra.  The Incra system looks really cool.  I like the mobile Rigid and it has the correct size miter slots.  It also has a nice large table and a good quality fence.  But it's $450.  Will have to sleep on it a few days.


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## rherrell (Mar 23, 2009)

Get a carbibe straight cutting router bit and rout out the groove a little. Clamp a straightedge to the table for the edge of the router to ride on. Don't try to take the whole 1/8" off at once, 2-3 passes ought to do it. 
DISCLAIMER: I've never done this to a table saw but I HAVE routed alot of metal. I don't see why it wouldn't work, just go slow and easy. A little WD40 sprayed on wil help, too.


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## NewLondon88 (Mar 23, 2009)

I've had to modify a few parts for similar reasons, usually the miter bar height. The
machine shop is used to me bringing in a new miter bar to mill down to .313" so it
will fit the track of an old Toolcraft table saw.
Can something similar be done for your equipment rather than scrap it? It seems
like a lot of work to replace it, not to mention tying up the money while you wait
to find another buyer..


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## jackrichington (Mar 23, 2009)

If I were you and had the $ , I'd keep the Incra and get a better table saw...


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## GouletPens (Mar 23, 2009)

I'm a young guy and I was DIE HARD Craftsman fan growing up, but back then all I could afford was hand tools. Their socket wrenches and most of their mechanics tools are good, and I LOVE the 19.2V Cordless C3 system.....very reliable and has served me well over the years. But as for power tools, forget it. I don't own a single Craftsman tool (other than the 19.2V set) with a motor. In my short time here on earth I've seen Craftsman tools go down the toilet, and I always feel like I have to educate the people working at Sears whenever I go there. If you want to earn a commission, you better darn well know more about your tools than I do!!!!!

I am certainly no longer die hard Craftsman, or anything for that matter. In this day and age, brand loyalty is almost a waste of time. Most of the power tools made are from the same factory in China with different stickers put on them! The best thing to do is research each individual tool and see what reviews people that own them have posted, and then buy those depending on what your specific needs are for the use of that tool. There....that's my rant!:laugh:


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## GouletPens (Mar 23, 2009)

Oh yeah, and if I were you I would upgrade the saw if you have the cash. I just got the 3hp Steel City and I'm VERY impressed with the heft and power in that thing. I would take a gander at their saws and compare them to the Unisaw.


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## dogcatcher (Mar 23, 2009)

The advantage of being old.  All of my Craftsman tools are are at least 30 years old, most are pushing 40 or more and still going strong.


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## GaryMadore (Mar 23, 2009)

Ya know, I promised myself that I would stay out of these senseless arguments, but I just can't seem to keep that promise to myself.

Blaming a reseller (Sears is not a manufacturer, nor is Craftsman) because of known design features/flaws is pissing in the wind. Fitting an Incra guage (designed for high-end cabinet saws) into a Ryobi-built benchtop saw is like trying to put top-of-the-line racing tires and 18x10" wheels on a Chev Cavalier: They won't fit. Try the Incra on another (high-end) saw and the results may be different.

Further, slagging a brand these days is a waste of time. Well, it's always a waste of time to buy without doing your homework and then complain about your purchase. Caveat emptor, baby. But I digress.

I hear a lot about how crappy "Craftsman" tools (even though there's no such thing) are, and hear just as many favourable comments on other "brands" - And the funny part is that the tools being discussed are usually identical (arguments over the merits of various 14" bandsaws are a favourite of mine....)

In this thread, Craftsman saws were slagged and Steel City saws were talked up. Well, I hate to break it to ya, folks, but neither company makes their saws. Let's have a look at a "good" Steel city saw:







And let's compare it to a "crappy" Craftsman saw:






Oh, what's that? There has to be a quality control difference or something? Bullshite, I say. They're the same. Can you say "Orion", boys and girls? I knew you could...

I'll tell ya what the difference is: Sears occasionally has crazy deals on stuff. They'll put machinery on for 1/2 price. And they'll offer discounts to "Craftsman Club" members. And they'll have a "Super Saturday" during which you can get in-store coupons for another 10-15% off. And sometimes there will come a time when all these things will happen at the same time and you can do something crazy like pick up the Cratsman saw *for less than half of what anybody else would pay just for the Biesmeyer fence.* That's right: I paid $400 (Canadian - that's a bit more than $300 USD) for this saw - complete.

The lesson here is to forget about brand-names, and to disregard rumours and rants and short-sighted thinking. Do your homework, wait for the deal, and strike. And then laugh all the way to the bank while your friends are whining about "Crapsman" and "Mastercrap" and "Crapex" tools.

Arrrrrrrrghhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!! Now I feel better. Time for more coffee....

Cheers!

Gary


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## jkeithrussell (Mar 23, 2009)

Personally, from my own experience, Craftsman power tools are inferior to other brands like Rigid, Makita, DeWalt, and others. I don't know or care who actually makes the Craftsman branded power tools, I just know that they aren't reliable and there is no customer support. At least in my experience. I do not agree that the Craftsman table saw is as good as any other just because it was manufactured by the same company that produced one other table saw. 

As far as the super sales days at Sears, wait until something breaks (which won't be long) and you get to haul the tool to a service center (if there is one near you; if not, you can ship it at your own expense) and pay them $90 for the privilege of diagnosing the problem. That scenario happened to me many, many times until I phased out my Craftsman power and lawn tools. 

You are right that I should have emailed Incra and asked for precise measurements on the miter bar and then compared those measurements to the slots on my table saw. But I didn't, hence the rant. 

My Craftsman table saw was too small anyway. The Incra gives me a good excuse to upgrade to a better saw with a larger table.


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## StatProf (Mar 23, 2009)

I have an old Craftsman Bandsaw and love it (1970's)! I bought it from a guy where it was just collecting dust. I put ~$25 into it (new cool blocks and a thrust bearing) and it works AWESOME!

- Kyle


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## GaryMadore (Mar 23, 2009)

jkeithrussell said:


> My Craftsman table saw was too small anyway. The Incra gives me a good excuse to upgrade to a better saw with a larger table.



NOW you're talkin' Brother! 

Cheers!

Gary


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## GaryMadore (Mar 23, 2009)

StatProf said:


> I have an old Craftsman Bandsaw and love it! I bought it from a guy where it was just collecting dust. I put ~$25 into it (new cool blocks and a thrust bearing) and it works AWESOME!



I, too, have a Craftsman "Professional" 14" bandsaw.

While others were debating the merits of the Jet, Rikon, Delta, and Ridgid models (all IDENTICAL except for the colour and the doors (different stampings for the different "brands")) and how much "Crapsman" sucks, I got a deal similar to the one I got on my tablesaw: I picked up the display model, on sale, "club" discount, and a coupon, for just over $200 Canadian.

We can talk about the merits of various 14" bandsaws until the cows come home. Mine cuts wood and I got it for about 33% of the retail price. Oh, and they had a whole whack of blades on clearance as well: I stocked up on a bunch of em in 3 different sizes for $3.98 (Canadian bucks) each.

The rest of my power tools are other than Craftsman, and they're a motley mixture - but they have one thing in common: I never paid more than about 50% retail for them. I'm not cheap by nature, but those savings translate into MORE TOOLS... something we can all agree is a good thing 

Cheers!

Gary


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## Grim Spirit (Mar 23, 2009)

About the only problem I've had with a Craftsman tool is that I purchased a 2nd-hand Craftsman drill press that was in excellent shape for a good price, sans the chuck-key.

I thought, "Hey, go to Harbor Freight and get a universal 1/2" chuck key, right?"  

Not so easy.  Turns out that the Craftsman 1/2" chuck will only accept a 1/2" chuck key with a 1/4" pilot.  Any universal chuck key at Harbor Freight has a larger pilot.

Finally found one at Lowe's for $2.95.

It's a good drill press, though.


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## GouletPens (Mar 23, 2009)

Gary, glad to see you got such a good deal. I've been hawkeyeing Sears sales and been a Craftsman club member for about 10 years now and I've never seen a deal close to that good in Richmond, Virginia. Congrats on that. 

And yeah, the saws you pointed out might be similar, but the 3hp Steel City saw is not the one you have pictured, it's very similar to a higher end Unisaw not the Craftsman. There are huge differences like whether the mount is on the table or the cabinet, the quality of the handwheels and the like, but yeah I agree many of the tools are the same basic thing with minor variances. And when you're getting a deal like yours who cares what saw has what features. But my dad has that exact Craftsman saw and it is comparable to a similarly priced Steel City or Delta saw. However, the Steel City saw I have is in a different league and I can say that having used both saws.


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## ehickey (Mar 23, 2009)

I'm not very familiar with newer craftsman tablesaws, but I have an old one (about 15-20 years old) and its miter slot is a tad bit undersized.  I have the Incra miter express and gauge and am able to use them fine.  I think that I had to remove all of the adjusters from one side of the miter bars.  It can still be adjusted from the other side.  My problem is that my miter slot is narrow by about 2-3 thou near the end, so I have to start with a sloppy fit just so it doesn't come to a screaching halt halfway through a cut.


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## skiprat (Mar 23, 2009)

I guess I must be in the minority:redface: I LOVE 'budget' machinery.:biggrin:

Most of us know that if you buy a machine from a supermarket and it comes in a bright shiny colourful box, and can be picked up by one of your kids, then it's gonna be a cheapie. 

But I like them for two main reasons. First and foremost is cos I can afford it without breaking the bank. Second is that I can modify the living daylights out of it to suit me.:biggrin:

I have only one 'decent' tool and even that is Chinese - (metal lathe $3000 worth.) Don't believe for one second that ALL Chinese stuff is junk.
I wouldn't dream of drilling holes in it or doing any other non-reversible mods to it. 

I just paid less than £50 for a new cheap drill press. It's identical to the one I bought before and I knew beforehand that the table will flex etc, but that is the only fault and it is easy to support. If I need precision holes then I do it on my lathe.  The old one was still alive and kicking too, I simply needed a 500W motor and a 16mm chuck for another project. 
Simply bought a new one and robbed the old one. :biggrin:

Maybe I'm just as tight as a ducks bum:biggrin:


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## GouletPens (Mar 23, 2009)

To each his own. Clearly, a lot of people love cheap tools and clearly people love expensive tools, because there are plently of both (and some in the middle too). Personally, I like getting expensive tools, but not paying much for them (I got my tablesaw from a truck frieght auction!).


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## Fred (Mar 23, 2009)

Keith, sorry you are having so much trouble. I find their power tools are nothing when compared to name brand machines. Craftsman tools are OK and I have hundreds of dollars of them in my basement.

Go with the pro stuff and you will never go wrong. Just work with the ole saying in mind, "You get what you pay for!"

Get a good table saw and put the Incra TS-III system on it. You will hardly ever need a ruler for anything. I have the Jet Contractor saw and mounted the TS-III on it several years ago ... never looked back. I use the Incra miter on the saw to cut VERY accurate angle pieces. They are always dead on the mark.

Incra has some of the most accurate equipments made, IMHO! Good Luck with your setup!


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## seawolf (Mar 23, 2009)

New tools are better but try pawn shops and craig'slist quality tools can be had for 30+% off new prices.
Just a thought.


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## Randy_ (Mar 23, 2009)

I've got an old Craftsman table saw (must be at least 50 years old) and the slot for the mitre gauge is 3/4" wide. I wonder when they changed to the narrower slot??

First thing I would do is call Incra and see if they have an alternative bar that will fit your saw. I would also find out how much a replacement bar would cost as you might want to purchase one and have a local machine shop mill it to fit your saw. Might be an economical alternative, might not?? (The suggestion to route out the slot on your saw is an intriguing one; but is a little scary to me and would probably only be a last resort if I were really desperate and had no money to upgrade to a different saw.)

Another possibility would be to look at the bar on your Craftsman mitre gauge and see if it could be made to fit your Incra mitre gauge.......probably not; but it would be worth checking out??

I just looked at the Incra web site since I was not familiar with this tool and see that some of what I suggested is not applicable. But how about checking out the following option?? Might work for you, might not??

The Miter Express is available in a special version to fit Shopsmith miter slots, which are both narrower shallower than 3/8" x 3/4" standard miter slots (use the options selector above). This version will accept miter gauges with either standard-size or Shopsmith-size miter bars.


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## themartaman (Mar 28, 2009)

*Craftsman*

All you have to do is look at the tools to see almost no difference. Have a friend that works in Home Depot Home office in Atlanta. Their ridgid tools are made in same plant as craftsman. Ryobi makes a number of sears routers and other portable tools. Older craftsman tools were made by emerson electric which skil now owns. China and Tawian seem to be making more and more. Sears trimmers are made by poulan and MTD. Both lousy. Now Troy Bilt is going downhill since MTD bought it. Thats why I use Husqvarna. Off my soap box.


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## tommyd (Mar 28, 2009)

If your going to buy a craftman make sure you buy an extra on/off switch.


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