# My thoughts on lacquer, Enduro, and CA/BLO



## drferry (May 26, 2009)

I have worked my way through the finishes, starting with brush-on lacquer, through Enduro, and now to CA/BLO.  Here are my thoughts:

Brush-on lacquer was extremely difficult to apply without running.  We finally improvised a rotisserie made for turing meat over a grill to put the blanks on and let them turn slowly until dry.  (NOT over the grill, by the way!) I usually applied 7 coats, which, with at least several hours between coats, took forever.  The other problem was that lacquer is brittle and tended to crack, particularly at the ends of the blank or if the pen was dropped.

Enduro was a great step in the right direction, and I used it for nearly a year.  I ended up putting on 6 coats of sanding sealer and 10 coats of the glossy, with a day to dry between the two finishes and another before I sanded.  I also sanded the sanding sealer before using the glossy top coat.  I started with 600 grit and went to MM 12,000.  Then I used the Beall buffing system with all three wheels and polishes (Tripoli, white diamond, and carnuba wax).  I was able get out all of those tiny little imperfections with the buffing system.  However, although Enduro started out with a great finish, glossy as the dickens, over the next weeks to months, the finish slowly became less glossy and turned rather dull.  I had clearly given Enduro a thorough try, what with 16 coats plus buffing.

I am now using CA/BLO, although I hate the fumes and, as others have said, it is finicky.  The best I have found so far is using a few drops of BLO followed by thick CA, followed by 3 more applications of BLO/CA.  I am not yet convinced what BLO is supposed to be doing, but I'm going with the 5 or 6 tutorials that I read or watched.  The problem with CA, to me, is that it tends to have small bubbles in it, that I spent a long time popping with a thin piece of wire.  Bubbles are extremely apparent on dark woods.  Finally, I hit on spreading the CA with the impervious paper back side of a piece of sandpaper, moving it around just enough to eliminate the larger ridges.  I no longer touch a paper towel  to the wood except for the BLO. This results in very few bubbles.

I use a skew to trim off excess CA down to a smooth surface before I start sanding with 400 and on through MM 12,000.  I then use the same Beall buffing technique on every blank.

Finally, I think it is of critical importance to carefully part the blank right down to the bushing to cut the hardened CA on both ends, otherwise you can crack the CA when twisting off the bushing.

The result is at least 1 mm or more thick rock-hard finish that is incredibly glossy.  I was amazed that a finish could look this good, and everyone of my friends has noticed the change in the look and feel of my pens.  I even tried this on African Blackwood, and, so far at least, it looks great.  It would have been easier had I listened to all of the advice from the old-timers on this forum and used CA/BLO sooner.

I think everyone has to go through a long learning curve to be able to get the finish they are looking for.

David


----------



## RussFairfield (May 26, 2009)

Don't be surprized to get an argument about almost everything you said. Most of what you say doesn't match with my experience with these finishes, and I suspect others will find them to be different as well. 

As a general comment, I think you are using way to much finish on your pens. 1mm is 0.03937". That isn't a finish. It is an encapsulation. Most pens are best finished with no more than a 0.005" film thickness. Anything more than this and they start taking way too long to dry or cure, and become brittle when they do.


----------



## Russianwolf (May 26, 2009)

gotta agree with Russ, if you are putting so much lacquer on that it's running, then it's too much. You want to build thin layers. And with lacquer it take more time to cure, it's a given but the end result isn't brittle in my experience.


----------



## jttheclockman (May 26, 2009)

Boy that was the first thing I thought of and the second thing was how much work you did on one pen. Any of those finishes are good finishes and there is short cuts to all of them so you do not have to work soooooooooo  hard. But the only thing I can tell you is if you found a finish and a method that you like and works for you then more power to you. But don't work so hard and 4 coats is more than enough for a deep finish.


----------



## jkeithrussell (May 26, 2009)

If it works for you, great.  But it seems to me that you are going in the wrong direction with your CA.  If you micromesh to 12k and then use Tripoli, for example, you are going backwards.  I also don't know what you mean about bubbles in CA.  I've used CA finish on around 200 pens and have never experienced a bubble.  I guess everyone develops his own system.


----------



## Dave_M (May 27, 2009)

I did a similar (non scientific) test a few months ago.  I tested Deft Lacquer, Minwax Poly, and Enduro.  I left out CA because I can't get a consistent finish using CA.  Yes, I'm CA challenged.

I turned a blank and cut it into three pieces then finished each piece with a different material.  I allowed each piece to sit three weeks before giving them all a final polish.

Lacquer looked best overall.  It had a bright clear finish with a nice depth, which really enhanced the look of the wood.  It was also the softest of the three.  I could easily scratch and dent the finish.  Very easy to apply.

Minwax Poly looked very nice.  Almost as good as the lacquer just not as clear and bright of a finish.  Almost a very very light tint to it, but still a nice looking finish.  As we all know, Poly is prone to yellowing over time.  Durability was very good compared to the lacquer.  Also very easy to apply.  

Enduro (General Finishes Polycrylic) was OK.  The finish seemed to lack depth.  It had a plastic look and feel to it.  It was like looking at a simulated wood product.  Not so easy to apply.  It is water based and as such behaves like water.  Prone to air bubbles and a fine line between a nice even coat and too much product, which creates runs due to the very low viscosity.  It produced a very hard finish, but...  Where the Lacquer and Poly would flex a little when hit hard (creating a dent in the blank), Enduro would crack and sometimes separate from the wood surface.  Now I had to smack it pretty hard to do that, but it was pretty consistent.

So for what it's worth, that's my inexperienced and unscientific analysis of these finishes.


----------



## workinforwood (May 29, 2009)

Now you need to go back to the rotisserie and use an acrylic urethane.  Works best if you spray it with an air brush, but you can brush it or wipe it on. unlike enduro, the acrylic you can apply a coat every hour, 5-6 coats is all you need.  The next day it will be cured and ready for wet sanding and polishing.  Anyone that was at the last Michigan meeting will tell you my acrylic urethane finished pens look as good or better than any CA finish they ever saw.  I have the same high gloss shine, the same depth look, but never a cloud, or pit, or bubble.  The acrylic is just as hard as CA, but it is stronger and flexible.  It does not crack or chip, and if there is any moisture in the wood left, or humidity in the summer air even, then a cloud won't develop under it..had that happen to CA pens too many times to count.    I do not finish pens with bushings attached either, and therefore there is no way you can pull or break any finish off the ends when removing from a rod.  I sand the ends by hand real quick, then finish sanding the ends using a barrel trimmer that sands not cuts.


----------



## Dave_M (May 29, 2009)

I don't remember seeing an acrylic urethane on the shelves.  Who makes it and should it be easy to find?  Thanks for the information Jeff.  I'm always open to new ideas.


----------



## MesquiteMan (May 29, 2009)

Any water based poly is an acrylic urethane.


----------



## Woodlvr (May 29, 2009)

Thanks Jeff and Curtis. The CA is really a challenge to me, so now I can try something new. Thanks to all who have posted, it is a lot of good reference material to keep in mind.


----------



## RussFairfield (May 29, 2009)

Do not confuse gloss with hardness and durability. All poly-acrylic finishes are not the same. You will have to experiment with them to find the one you like best. My experience with them is that Enduro is the same hardness as CA glue, and it can be slightly harder than CA glue if the wood is sealed with a thin CA before using it. Most of the others are more like lacquer in hardness and durability. The softest polycrylic I have ever used was the Minwax product which was softer than lacquer. All of the others are somewhere in between those two extremes.


----------



## workinforwood (May 29, 2009)

Silly me missed the fact that you did try an acrylic urethane...but wow...16 coats!!!?  Of course it was brittle, that's like making a cement wall.  Enduro is flexible when applied correctly.   And yea...I have to agree with Russ again on the Minwax..wow, that is some bad acrylic.  But all finishes have good brands and bad.  For a pen, you don't need to go to the extreme acrylics like Enduro and Bristol.  The Sherwin Williams brand is cheap and very effective.
  I stopped using CA on wood pens becuase of humidity and cracking.  That's the only reason. CA looks great to me, and I use it on some of my acrylics with pine cones in them and stuff like that.  Thing with wood is, it needs some flexibility in a finish.  And it needs to be able to let moisture escape. Wood always has moisture in it, even if it is only 6%.  The air outside also has moisture.  My wood CA pens, some of them go funky when I'm doing a show.  They look great all the time, for many months, and look great when I put them on the display too.  Later in the day, we're talking dead summer time of course, someone will show me a pen and say "what's this?".  Well dang if it isn't a cloud, and the cloud wasn't there before the day started.  Now I start feeling embarassed, I get hot and sweaty and don't know how to respond.  I believe it is humidity in the air getting behind the finish, just like a glass of ice water on a hot day..the wood inside the finish perhaps is cooler than the slick finish and condensates or something, who knows.  I have had the pens expand in the heat too, causing the finish to crack, but the wood is not cracked.  Always with CA.  I never have that happen with the acrylic finishes, and I'm sure a typical polyurethane or laquer would also not submit to this problem becuase all those finishes have some flex too them and they have some permiablility that allows moisture to escape.
  Am I the only one that starts sweating and get's embarrassed if something isn't perfect???  maybe I'm just crazy!


----------



## chriselle (May 30, 2009)

Good post Jeff.  That pretty much reflects my experience with CA as a finish.  And in fact I have shared that exact embarassment of a customer bringing a CA "occurance" to my attention. 
  Urushi is all I'm using on wood pens these days.  It takes a LOT longer but it's rock hard yet flexible, feels great,  and there are no surprises a few months down the road.


----------



## AceHoleInOne (Aug 19, 2011)

Interesting comments about the Enduro-Var. I’m new to this website, a guy over at another forum I participate in, suggested I come over here, because I want to learn how to turn pens. Well, I have been looking around and found this old post. I think I got the finishing part down now and need to figure out how to make a pen. 

I like to play with dyes and stains on the lathe. I’m up on the various finishing techniques of “flat work.” In addition, I’m very familiar with the General Finishes products and Enduro-Var spraying it on the lathe with a small hvlp touch-up gun. 

Now over at this other forum, 10 guys were asked to submit their names to test and give their thoughts about General Finishes new “Wood Turners Finish” on the lathe and possibly flat work. Anyway, perhaps this information could be of value to some folks?                

Thanks for looking:

*General Finishes Wood Turners Finish - over water-based dye and stain*

*Curly Maple*












*First*, dye the wood yellow using a paper towel. Then  applied some heat with a hair dryer to speed the dry. Sanded the yellow  off with 320 paper and repeated 2 more times. This gets the dye down  into the curl of the wood.

*Second*, then apply  the Black Cherry stain using toilet tissue directly over the yellow dye.  Takes about 3 coats, then when dry, I buff with a paper towel. Should  you experience any unevenness with the stain. I dampen the corner of the  paper and go back over the surface to work it out. If necessary, get  more stain on and wipe back to reactivate your stain.






*Third*, apply the Wood Turners Finish directly to the  wood with lathe speed set on low. I use toilet tissue under the piece to  collect the finish and gently kiss the wood with the tissue to work the  finish from left to right. With each application, use a fresh piece of  toilet tissue.

*Fourth*, after the 3rd  application, I used 320 grit paper to de-nib (careful not to sand  through) then wiped the wood clean of dust. Then applied 3 more coats  and called it done.

    Hint… _I used a hair dryer between  coats to accelerate the dry, don’t get too hot with the air, and switch  between warm/cold air. (this step was not really necessary, because the  finish dried fast on it own!)_

*Fifth,* I sanded the finish with 2000 grit Abralon pad, cleaned the surface than applied the wax and buffed using toilet tissue.

















* Conclusion

*I found the product very easy to use.

The more I used it, the better I became applying it, and actually found it was not necessary to sand or buff the finish. 

Dries in minutes, even faster if you use the accelerator (a hair dryer  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







  ) Was able to completely finish in less that 15 minutes.  

General Finishes, I think found itself a real winner!          Better than Enduro-Var in my opinion.

-Ace-


----------



## jbswearingen (Aug 19, 2011)

Fortunately for me, my learning curve on finishes wasn't much steeper than stepping up onto a curb.



I used friction polishes originally, and started using CA about two months ago.  My only "failures" have been operator error--not polishing completely or not scoring the CA correctly before removing from the bushings.

I'm about to try something suggested by others--apply the CA between centers with no bushings.  I'm hoping to give it a shot tonight.


----------

