# Stooping pretty low



## gerryr (Dec 18, 2007)

I have heard from a reliable source that this is a member of IAP.  Check out the URL, fairly disgusting in my book and a sleazy way to get traffic to your website.

http://penturner.org/default.aspx


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## cowchaser (Dec 18, 2007)

Don't know who it is, but if their going to sell pens atleast take a decent photo. [}]


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## Dario (Dec 18, 2007)

What an "S" (or lack thereof) makes.


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## DCBluesman (Dec 18, 2007)

This is the website of IAP member Bobby Weber.

Notice anything strange? - like trying to capitalize on the IAP site, those of us who have spread the logo, Jeff's hard work in building and growing the site, etc.?

Here's an email I sent.



> Bobby -
> 
> As you have been a non-contributing member of the IAP (penturners.org) for nearly a year, I find it reprehensible that you would so obviously rip off the name and use it for a commercial website.  It would be in your best interest to delete this site and select a name that does not rip off someone else's traffic building efforts.  Also, the .org suffix is meant for non-profit organizations.
> 
> ...


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## gketell (Dec 18, 2007)

Registrant Name:Jeffrey Brown
Registrant Organization:TSB, Inc.
Registrant Street1:
Registrant Street2:
Registrant Street3:
Registrant City:
Registrant State/Province:
Registrant Postal Code:
Registrant Country:US
Registrant Phone:
Registrant Phone Ext.:
Registrant FAX:
Registrant FAX Ext.:
Registrant REMOVED

I edited this to remove my personal contact info... - Jeff


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## cowchaser (Dec 18, 2007)

Also noticed he has NO posts since joining Jan. 1 2007.


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## Dario (Dec 18, 2007)

greg,

I think you got the wrong one LOL []


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## gerryr (Dec 18, 2007)

It appears to be some el cheapo service through Microsoft Live.

Greg, if there's still time, please delete that post since it has Jeff's email in it.  BIG NO-NO.  If it's too late, hopefully one of the mods will delete it.


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## jeff (Dec 18, 2007)

That site is owned by IAP member "mathcarver" who has not been here since May 07.


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## wdcav1952 (Dec 18, 2007)

Unfortunately, forum decorum prevents me from adequately commenting on the character of this person as well as on the quality of his work.


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## gerryr (Dec 18, 2007)

Is he going to be a member much longer??[][}]

I like that, "forum decorum."  Has a nice ring to it.  But you forgot to mention the quality of the photos.


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## GaryMGg (Dec 18, 2007)

It's too bad folks can get away with such things. 
To me, this is an example of an individual lacking ethics and honesty.
And, his work looks like it's overpriced []


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## gerryr (Dec 18, 2007)

So who do you report violators of ICANN rules to?


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## wdcav1952 (Dec 18, 2007)

I think he is more of an example of ICAN'T


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## jeff (Dec 18, 2007)

It is abusive, and I'd love to do something about it, but it's not feasible to invoke the dispute resolution policy. Court action is necessary for domestic (i.e. within the United States) complaints. 

Read all about it! http://www.icann.org/udrp/udrp.htm


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## Texatdurango (Dec 18, 2007)

I agree that it is diplorable how he named his website but if it's any consolation, I doubt he is doing a brisk business!  Judging from the quality of his site, I have a feeling he isn't getting swamped with calls, regardless how people find him.


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## DocStram (Dec 18, 2007)

Is there an attorney among us?  If not ... and with Jeff's permission, I can contact one.  My oldest son is in practice in Manhattan.  His firm allows him to do some pro bono work. If he has time, he might be able to help. I'll wait for the go ahead from Jeff before I talk with him.


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## Aderhammer (Dec 18, 2007)

Everyone, stop visiting his site! Why should he get this extra traffic through and help him get up higher on search engine results?


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## gketell (Dec 18, 2007)

DOH!!!!!

Jeff, I apologize!!!!!  My fingers' microcode added the 's' to the whois command.  I meant to post the info for penturner.org.

egistrant Name:Robert Weber
Registrant Street1:3068 River Ridge Rd.
Registrant Street2:
Registrant Street3:
Registrant City:Summit
Registrant State/Province:MS
Registrant Postal Code:39666
Registrant Country:US
Registrant Phone:+1.6016848086
Registrant Phone Ext.:
Registrant FAX:
Registrant FAX Ext.:
Registrant Email:mathcarver@penturner.org


Sadly, this isn't against anything ICANN has.  If we were big enough we could go after him legally but it would be lawyer vs lawyer.  Microsoft has the $$ if someone creates a microosft.com but I doubt we do.

GK


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## jeff (Dec 18, 2007)

> _Originally posted by DocStram_
> <br />Is there an attorney among us?  If not ... and with Jeff's permission, I can contact one.  My oldest son is in practice in Manhattan.  His firm allows him to do some pro bono work. If he has time, he might be able to help. I'll wait for the go ahead from Jeff before I talk with him.


Al, that's a nice offer, but I'd rather his pro bono time go to someone with real legal problems. That said, maybe a quick letter from an attorney would motivate the guy to shut down his operation.


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## alamocdc (Dec 18, 2007)

Bad taste, bad form, bad web site... just all around bad... and that's too bad... really.[][V] Some people just ain't got no scruples.


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## les-smith (Dec 18, 2007)

How about someone mailing him one of those Texas Cow Crap pens and tell him to go chew on it.  Maybe it would put as good a taste in his mouth as his actions have put in ours.[}]


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## karlkuehn (Dec 19, 2007)

*best Guido impression*

Hey 'dere, uh...boss? You wan' I should break his lathe? []

Do I get the pun of the week award? heh


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## 7miles (Dec 19, 2007)

He has a contact us tab....Why don't IAP members contact him, to let him know what bad taste he has...If we just keep slamming him with e-mails in protest maybe he will get the picture.[}][}][}]

Thanks


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## rlharding (Dec 19, 2007)

I'm sorry guys but I don't see a problem here.

Our small numbers looking at his site will not be enough to push it to the top of any search engine. 

His site is .....well it's....well you know. Who in their right mind would tumble on a site like this and actually want to buy one of his pens? OK, his mother, but seriously, who else.

Don't get yer knickers in a twist over it.  Save your angst for a more worthy cause.  This guy is not a threat to anyone.


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## CrazyBear (Dec 19, 2007)

> _Originally posted by rlharding_
> <br />I'm sorry guys but I don't see a problem here.



I think the problem is that he is trying to be cute with the site name, however The bigger problem (as I see it) is some of YOUR pen customers trying to get to the IAP on your recomendation and ending up at this site.

I suppose it would just show them how much better your pens are[][][]


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## Gary Max (Dec 19, 2007)

So if he did a better job -----IAP should care more????????
How does that make any sense-----right is right and wrong is wrong------there really ain't no such thing as ---well it's not bad enough to care.


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## airrat (Dec 19, 2007)

I don't know if it would be right for IAP members to spam him with emails.   Ripping off popular web sites with common misspellings of the names is a normal thing.  I misspell web addresses all the time and they will always lead me to some site.   I really hate it when the site is something of the sexual nature.

I do not agree with this practice, I think this jerk is an idiot and his site/pens look like crap.   If someone wants to put a stop to another one they might go look at registering sites that can be closely spelled to this one.


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## 7miles (Dec 19, 2007)

I not sure spamming his email is the right train of thought. I was thinking if so many IAP members slammed his email, just letting him know what bad taste he has and why. He might just see the light.


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## Rifleman1776 (Dec 19, 2007)

I don't see that he did anything wrong. Not much right, I'll agree. His work is forgetable, the site name is not original, photography lousy. But, in a free enterprise America one has the right to not do well. I don't understand the fuss. Time to move on guys.


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## WWAtty (Dec 19, 2007)

There may be some trademark issues here.  While the term "penturners" is quite generic and descriptive (the most difficult to assert trademark rights to), nevertheless, penturners.org has been established for several years, and the name may have taken on "secondary meaning."  In other words, in the minds of a large number of people in the woodworking/pen interests, "penturners" invokes reference to this site.  

The fact that another person has used a substantially similar term for marketing pens could give rise to an issue of "likelihood of confusion," in that an unknowing visitor to _penturner_ might assume a connection to _penturners_. The low-quality pens displayed for sale on penturner, along with the poor photography, could thus create an unfavorable opinion of our site in the minds of those who mistakenly make a connection.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_trademark_law

Meanwhile, the owners of this site might want to consider adding a subscript TM to the penturners logo.  This helps further establish an unregistered trademark's use in a "normal course of business."  The circle-R is only allowed for trademarks that have been registered with the USPTO.

Cheers.


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## Rifleman1776 (Dec 19, 2007)

> _Originally posted by WWAtty_
> <br />There may be some trademark issues here.  While the term "penturners" is quite generic and descriptive (the most difficult to assert trademark rights to), nevertheless, penturners.org has been established for several years, and the name may have taken on "secondary meaning."  In other words, in the minds of a large number of people in the woodworking/pen interests, "penturners" invokes reference to this site.
> 
> The fact that another person has used a substantially similar term for marketing pens could give rise to an issue of "likelihood of confusion," in that an unknowing visitor to _penturner_ might assume a connection to _penturners_. The low-quality pens displayed for sale on penturner, along with the poor photography, could thus create an unfavorable opinion of our site in the minds of those who mistakenly make a connection.
> ...



WW, I believe it would take an extreme stretch to find any sort of violation in what he did. Your own post pretty well supports that. You used the words: may (several times); difficult; similar; could; mistakenly; might and on and on, aud infinauseum. Then you reference Wikipedia, probably the least reliable source of information in the world. As far as similarity is concerned, it flourishes everywhere in the commercial world. Look at the woodworking/turning catalogs. The names of the catalogs are nearly identical in many cases. We (including myself) have already spent way too much time on this huge non-issue.


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## Texatdurango (Dec 19, 2007)

> _Originally posted by rlharding_
> <br />....Don't get yer knickers in a twist over it... This guy is not a threat to anyone.



I gotta agree with Ruth on this one.  By the way the momentum is building on this thread, by page six there will be recommendations of tar and feathers.  

And as far as anyone sending their customers to the IAP... who does that?  Do we really want our customers to know that those $125 pens they bought only cost us $14 in parts and take 30 minutes to make? []


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## Gary Max (Dec 19, 2007)

Hey I can find the tar------------[8D]


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## GaryMGg (Dec 19, 2007)

> _Originally posted by Texatdurango_
> [...the way the momentum is building on this thread, by page six there will be recommendations of tar and feathers



Which one you bringing?!?!? [}][}] [][][]

&lt;Music on&gt;
Simply irresistible
&lt;/MO&gt;


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## maxwell_smart007 (Dec 19, 2007)

Save the feathers - cast them instead! []


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## Mudder (Dec 19, 2007)

No doubt that his actions are deplorable and I do not condone them in any way, shape or form. However I see something here that is equally deplorable and it seems to have been ignored. Specifically, I am talking about the posting personal information in direct violation of the posted acceptable use policy of which which I quote:

"You may not use the service to transmit the private information of another person without consent, nor may you post the contents of email exchanges without the consent of all parties involved."

Perhaps I am in the minority here but to me it seems that we are no better than he is.


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## 7miles (Dec 19, 2007)

Frank, 
I see you have a web site www.ozarkwood.com. It seems to be under construction, so I am not sure what you are putting on there. Lets just say its pens nice pens with nice photos of them pens. You have also worked hard to build up the traffic flow.

Then someone comes along sees that you have something there and wants to take advantage of your hard work. So they start a web site called, OH, I don't know maybe www.ozarkswood.com or www.ozarkwoods.com. And they post some really shabby work with some really shabby photos.

Would this be a huge non-issue to you Frank????

Legal maybe, right I don't think so. I do think it should be talked about. And I do think that this man should know how others feel. I also know that folks could let him know how they feel about his deplorable action, with a e-mail.....clean e-mail, letting him know how a person feels about what he is doing. And taken advantage of someones hard work is wrong just flat out wrong  [V][V][V]

The personal information that is posted here, is on his web site as well. Did we need it here?? I'm not really sure. However Its not really personal if the person post it on his own web site. Just a thought.

Also the web sites I listed are just examples. I have know idea if they are real or not other then Franks, just purely to make my point.


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## GaryMGg (Dec 19, 2007)

WHOIS is a public database. Web site owners are NOT required to leave their contact info public.


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## Russianwolf (Dec 19, 2007)

I'm with George, I wouldn't send any client to this site. too much information that could force me out of business. 

As far as the person at hand. He's doing what every other guy has done on the internet. I recall someone registering the domain www.coke.com and holding it hostage until coke paid a substantial fee to buy it. 

want another. try www.nissan.com pending legal battle over that site. The owner's last name is..... Nissan and has had a business under that name since before Datsun changed it's name.

so, while I'm sure the guy isn't selling any pens, what he has done is totally fine. Oh, and don't leave the first s off of craigslist.com (DAMHIKT)

Oh, and as to the posting private info. That's actually public info that was posted. Anyone on the internet can look it up.


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## GaryMGg (Dec 19, 2007)

> _Originally posted by Rifleman1776_
> ... I believe it would take an extreme stretch to find any sort of violation in what he did.



Legal and "right and proper" aren't necessarily the same thing.
There are many things that are wrong even though they're legal.
The individual has violated a basic tenet of human relationships: taking advantage of others.
Ptoooey!


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## CrazyBear (Dec 19, 2007)

> _Originally posted by Texatdurango_
> <br />
> 
> 
> ...



That point is exactly why I have previously advocated Taking that type of discussion behind closed doors


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## CrazyBear (Dec 19, 2007)

> _Originally posted by Russianwolf_
> <br />
> 
> Oh, and don't leave the first s off of craigslist.com (DAMHIKT)



After posting that  .. you know We have just got to try it[][][][][][][]


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## Ron in Drums PA (Dec 19, 2007)

It took me a while to figure what the fuss was.

This subject was addressed on a business owner's forum I belong to. Allot of smart people there and many suggested buying domain names that are similar to your website's name to protect yourself from this type of abuse.

The thread started when a business owner purchased a domain name that was close to his competitor's name. Then he had the domain name point to his website.  Needless to say, it was a messy situation for both sides. 

$6 per domain name is cheap insurance against this type of problem.  I own 10 similar domains names for my main business and they all point to my main website.


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## Russianwolf (Dec 19, 2007)

> _Originally posted by CrazyBear_
> <br />
> 
> 
> ...


make sure you're not at work, and the kids aren't around.


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## fiferb (Dec 19, 2007)

I'm not knowledeable enough to know the answer to this, but, my question is, can he sell from a .org website? Isn't there some sort of regulation being violated that could be reported?


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## Russianwolf (Dec 19, 2007)

> _Originally posted by fiferb_
> <br />I'm not knowledeable enough to know the answer to this, but, my question is, can he sell from a .org website? Isn't there some sort of regulation being violated that could be reported?



I don't believe there is any law stating that you can't. The .org domains were started with the idea of non-profit using them for ease of recognition. But alot of non-profits selll stuff, they just aren't trying to make an overall profit. they shoot the break even. But they still have to pay salaries, etc. 


I am now the CFO (was hired 2 months ago) of a $3+million annual revenue non-profit, my budget for next year has a net profit of $50. So my expenses are about $2.99995 million.


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## gerryr (Dec 19, 2007)

> _Originally posted by Russianwolf_
> <br />
> 
> 
> ...



Why?  I tried it and all I got was an innocuous screen with a message about the domain being parked by Godaddy.com.  Very boring.


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## WWAtty (Dec 19, 2007)

> WW, I believe it would take an extreme stretch to find any sort of violation in what he did. Your own post pretty well supports that. You used the words: may (several times); difficult; similar; could; mistakenly; might and on and on, aud infinauseum. Then you reference Wikipedia, probably the least reliable source of information in the world. As far as similarity is concerned, it flourishes everywhere in the commercial world. Look at the woodworking/turning catalogs. The names of the catalogs are nearly identical in many cases. We (including myself) have already spent way too much time on this huge non-issue.
> Frank
> Mountain Home, Arkansas
> "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others." from Animal Farm by George Orwell
> Go to Top of Page



My post never supported _anything_, other than to point out some possible legal issues.  Nothing here is simple black and white.  The words I used, such as _difficult, similar, could_, etc. only serve to illustrate the subjective nature of this kind of legal issue.  The fact that Rifleman claims "similarity flourishes everywhere in the commercial world" does not negate the probability that some of that similarity may be actionable.  That it continues to go on only means that someone either doesn't know about it, or doesn't care enough to pursue a remedy.  Similarly, it may not be worthwhile for penturners.org to pursue this either. But since a number of posters to this thread were talking about the legality of the matter, I felt compelled to weigh in.  It's an area of law I practice in, and I found that particular Wiki article to be accurate.   

Rifleman does have a valid point, in that we all have spent perhaps too much energy on this topic.  Of course, isn't that just the sort of thing that OT sections of discussion boards are meant for? []  With four pages of postings and counting, <b>_somebody_</b> here apparently finds this topic interesting.

Cheers.


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## Russianwolf (Dec 19, 2007)

> _Originally posted by gerryr_
> <br />
> 
> 
> ...


looks like they lost the lease..... guess not enough people mispelled craigslist.


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## DCBluesman (Dec 19, 2007)

Kevin (WWAtty) - thank you for giving us the legal side of things.  Having worked closely with some of the finest lawyers in the world over the past 25 years, I can appreciate all of the qualifiers you must use seeing as the facts of this are incomplete at best.


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## Scott (Dec 19, 2007)

Hi Everybody!

I usually don't even read threads like this one, much less post on them.  But I like you guys!  You are my friends!  So here's my advice:

Forget about this guy and his little website.  It really means nothing to us.  The emotional energy spent in arguing about it four pages long, is more than it deserves.  Particularly at this time of year when there is so much potential for positive energy, why dwell on the negative?  Forget about him.  Leave him alone.  Find somebody you love and give them a hug, and enjoy Christmas!  Turn a beautiful pen, take a picture, and post it here for us all to see.  Enjoy a laugh over at the Name The Reindeer Contest!  But don't waste anymore time on this little, inconsequential website.

Doesn't that feel better?

Scott.


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## maxwell_smart007 (Dec 19, 2007)

Sure does, Scott!  Merry Christmas to all! []


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## Texatdurango (Dec 19, 2007)

> _Originally posted by Scott_
> <br />...  Find somebody you love and give them a hug, and enjoy Christmas!  Turn a beautiful pen, take a picture, ...



Easy for you to say.  Must be nice... having a lathe to turn a pen on, mine is 1500 miles away, along with the stinking battery charger to my camera so no pictures even if I could make a pen []

I guess all I can do is hug all my dear relatives and enjoy the season.

Scott's right..... let's get off this inter-forum bickering over what amounts to nothing!

On a lighter note.... Did everyone see where I am the only winner so far in the "Who is Santa" contest???[]


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## maxwell_smart007 (Dec 20, 2007)

> On a lighter note.... Did everyone see where I am the only winner so far in the "Who is Santa" contest???[]




[] Shhh...you're going to make me wake up my fiance if I laugh any louder!


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## WWAtty (Dec 20, 2007)

I don't even think this thread has created any bickering.  This "penturner" guy just got under our skin and we all had a good, civil discussion of it.  We got it out of our systems.  In the grand scheme of things, he doesn't matter anyway.  It's the holiday season, so who cares?

Everyone have a great holiday and a bountiful New Year!  Those of you who are traveling: drive safely.

Cheers.


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## cowchaser (Dec 20, 2007)

> _Originally posted by Scott_
> <br />Hi Everybody!
> 
> I usually don't even read threads like this one, much less post on them.  But I like you guys!  You are my friends!  So here's my advice:
> ...



I want to hug Scott []


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