# Military Trademark License Holders



## mbroberg (Aug 28, 2017)

Have any of you gone through the process of obtaining a license to use a military trademark?  I just had one of my listings on ETSY deactivated due to a Trademark Infringement Notice sent to ETSY by the Department of the Navy.  So I took a look at what was required to obtain a license.

http://www.navy.mil/local/onr/docs/DoN-Standard-Trademark-Licensee-Application.pdf

Just seems way to complicated for a guy turning pens in his garage and selling them on the Internet and at craft shows.

The purpose of this thread is to ask those among us who have actually gone through the process of obtaining a license to sell trademarked logos how they went about doing it.  I'd like to keep speculation and opinions out of this discussion.  I'd like to hear from people who have actually gone through the process of applying for a trademark license even if they were unsuccessful in obtaining a license.  Are there separate classes of licenses for hobbyists?  Do they really hold the "one at a time" penmaker to the same requirements of large manufacturers?


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## PatrickR (Aug 29, 2017)

That link spells it out pretty well for the Navy. There will be no shortcut with a Government agency or corporate entity.
I have not gone through the process but worked in the printing, sign and graphics industry. I'll assume that you created the logo or someone did without permission. The logo is the property of the trademark owner and simply reproducing it is an infringement. The fact that you would make money using it is not taken lightly. They decide how and what it is used for. If it were a small entity, simply calling them could get an agreement for use. If you went into a print shop and wanted a Navy logo printed on anything they would refuse to do it without "express written permission"


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## SCjim (Aug 29, 2017)

Please help me with this “trade mark” stuff.

I am new to pen making. I would like to sell some of my pens to help pay for my hobby. I don’t plan to make this a business. But do enjoy making pens.

So, with that said, if I buy the U.S. Military pen clips, decals, and/or other materials from a supplier and put these together as say a “U.S. Navy Pen” I need a license to use a military trademark?

The reason I am asking is that a friend has just asked me to make some “Navy” pens for his Retired Navy Officers Group. I’m sure these people will show them around and I don’t want to be embossed with any fallback.


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## PatrickR (Aug 29, 2017)

Trademark laws can be complicated. That's why there are lawyers who specialize in it and I am not one. When in doubt find out from an expert or get permission.
You do bring up an interesting question. If the component you buy is licensed, and you alter it or incorporate it into something else is that item " licensed " ? Again, I'm no expert but I doubt it.
Also, are the clips being sold actually licensed? They are coming out of China, so.......
In the case you describe it is doubtful they would have an issue with it. Some phone calls could get you a definite answer.


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## larryc (Aug 29, 2017)

I had the same thing happen to me on Etsy yesterday. They kicked the first one off but the second one wasn't touched.


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## Herb G (Aug 29, 2017)

As long as you don't use the "US" you're golden.


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## Woodchipper (Aug 29, 2017)

My son contacted Remington Arms about using the name "Remington" for his Lab's registered name.  He was told it was OK as there are other things with the Remington name, Remington, Indiana for instance.
I have a friend who got into a lot of hot water over trademark or logo copyrights.  Had to pay the holder a bit of $$$ to settle.
I know of custom fishing rod builders who have used the color schemes for various military ribbons, Viet Nam service ribbon for instance, and so far, no backlash.


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## tbroye (Aug 29, 2017)

Just read the application.  It isn't worth hassel.   Back in the late 80's early 90's when NASCAR was a big deal especially in the Plastic Model car hobby a lot of people got into deep water producing decals for various car's   If you used the decal that came in the kit fine if you used an aftermarket decal you could be in trouble or the manufacture would be.  Had one of my models kicked out of contest for the very reason.  it was the Childress/Earnhardt Silver #3.  The #3 is trademarked to this day.  There were a number of Sponsors decals as well.  Still have the model and it has won a number of contest but no shown any more, moved on to Pens.


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## Rick_G (Aug 29, 2017)

After reading this I did a little research, turns out the yellow ribbon with the support out troops wording is copyright by the Canadian Armed Forces.  A little more checking on their website and conditions of use revealed if you are not using it for commercial use or the use generates less than 10K a year you are allowed to use it.  Since 99% of my pens are given away and I only use this logo on pens I give to military family or members I guess I can continue to use it.


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## Terredax (Aug 29, 2017)

It wasn't a government agency, but a while back, I contacted Ruger about using their logo on some grips for friends. These were to be given as gifts and not sold.

I was told by the companies licensing agent, that the logo was not to be reproduced without a license. The license was $xxxxx and had to meet certain requirements. I can't say for sure since it's been a while, but I think the actual figure was $10,000, but I do know, after reading the figure, I didn't bother with the rest of the letter.

That's the only experience I've had on the subject, and I'm sure all businesses will be different.

I've read on other forums where people have obtained the licensing for the military branches, but that was all that was mentioned, along with the links to the applications.


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## jcm71 (Aug 29, 2017)

I know the source is Wikipedia but there's this:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-sale_doctrine   I have seen numerous vendors sell items with NFL and NCAA logos on them.  They don't bother with licensing.  For example one vendor makes and sells hand made baby clothes with logos on it.  She buys the material from an outside source.  No licensing.  Another vendor hand crafts coasters with team logos on them.  He does buy the licensing.


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## More4dan (Aug 29, 2017)

If I buy a decal that was officially licensed, can I use that to make a pen without issue?

Danny


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## PatrickR (Aug 30, 2017)

More4dan said:


> If I buy a decal that was officially licensed, can I use that to make a pen without issue?
> 
> Danny
> 
> ...





No, The license was given for its original use. You are changing the use and now selling an unlicensed product.
The "first sale doctrine" applies to a thing that you have not altered.
But again check with the owner to see what they thought or would charge for use.
I wouldn't have a problem making a few pens for a retired military group but selling on-line or craft fairs, nope.


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## Woodchipper (Aug 30, 2017)

If a decal is sold on the open market, then there should be compensation paid to the original owner of the trademark or logo.  Look at all the college stuff now in stores for football season.  The school would have been paid a fee for someone to use that copyrighted logo, motto, etc.  You would not be allowed to go to a website and download anything and use it since you did not pay for the rights to use that information.


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## TellicoTurning (Aug 30, 2017)

I don't know much about the licensing process, but a while back I had two bottle  stoppers turned from Spectraply listed on ETSY, one was green and yellow and in my description of the stopper, I said they were "John Deere" colors... another is the multi-colored pattern that Spectraply calls "Confetti", but since it looks like a party about to happen, I called it a "Fiesta" stopper.... I got notice from ETSY, John Deere and Fiesta ware that I was violating their intellectual property rights.... ETSY de-activated both listings and advised me to contact John Deere and Fiesta Ware regarding use of the words.


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## keithncsu (Aug 30, 2017)

Yea that has to do with the "likeness" wording for the larger/iconic brands.  John Deere not only has their logo copyrighted but also their likeness.  Meaning anything that is green and yellow that is somehow meant to allude to them, even without saying it, could be a violation.  I'm no expert by any means, but this is the way I've understood it over the years.  I believe this is why all the team colors acrylic blanks you see on our vendors sites are worded the way they are.  

I've also read numerous "discussions" on this in the Facebook groups about first-sale and if that is still good on an altered item, etc.  Some folks are of the mindset that ignorance is a good defense.  Others, my self included, would say my luck would be that I'm the one of out 1,000 hit with a fine that bankrupts my family.  Not worth the risk.


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## Woodchipper (Aug 30, 2017)

I have seen a lot of mailboxes in yellow and green.  Some were even shaped like a tractor.
Don't use the word "Kleenex" when asking for a facial tissue or "Q-Tip" when asking for cotton swabs.  You could be sued.


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## keithncsu (Aug 30, 2017)

Woodchipper said:


> I have seen a lot of mailboxes in yellow and green.  Some were even shaped like a tractor.
> Don't use the word "Kleenex" when asking for a facial tissue or "Q-Tip" when asking for cotton swabs.  You could be sued.



As have I.  I think where I've seen the most prominent examples of this playing with fire mentality is with corn hole boards.  Some of these guys are slapping logos of anybody and everybody on a board and selling them.  I can only assume that most of the guys making boards in their garage DON'T have rights to everything they use.


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## preacherman (Aug 30, 2017)

Trademark infringement is nothing to mess with. Several years ago a co-worker at a Chevy dealer was making hitch covers with a chevy bowtie on them. He was machining them in his home garage without any license. GM came after him and he ended up with 200 hundred thousand dollar debt. I saw this happen first hand, it happens folks! Don't think that making a few dollars of a pen or some other item is worth it. The copyright laws are complicated. Just stay away!


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## robertkulp (Aug 30, 2017)

Simple rules... If you make & sell a copyrighted or trademarked item, you better have proper licensing rights/permission to do so. I've gone through the process for both commercial businesses and the US military. While it's not usually complicated, it can be very time consuming and costly.


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## jcm71 (Aug 30, 2017)

What about the inlay pen kits Lazerlinez and others sell of military logos, including the Navy and Marine Corps emblems?  I have sold several of those.


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## keithncsu (Aug 30, 2017)

That is where the confusion for most of us lies.  Lazerlines and the other suppliers of cast military logos have the license to use the logo and sale that specific item.  In that case, a logo pen blank.  The confusion is what happens after we buy them and make the pen.  If we give away, no issue at all.  The gray area is when we sell the pen we make with that blank.  Do we have the protection of first sale? Or have we altered the product that the license applied to?  TECHNICALLY it is no longer a pen blank...it is now a pen.  

This is the same general direction that the discussions went on the Facebook groups.  Coupled with every sort of opinion and bit of advice shared.  Plenty of personal interpretations of internet searches, and I knew a guy who yadda yadda.  I think the risk is high, personally.  And the risk level depends on the company/organization/brand logo you're using.  Some are more protective over their brand reputation/etc than others.  And of course tied directly to your method of advertising/sales - i.e. how visible you make it.


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## mbroberg (Aug 30, 2017)

BURLMAN said:


> What about the inlay pen kits Lazerlinez and others sell of military logos, including the Navy and Marine Corps emblems?  I have sold several of those.



I'm still doing some research but from what I can tell from what I have read so far, if you hold a license to sell a trademarked product, i.e. Marine Corps pen you should produce the image yourself or buy it in the form of a blank that is made and sold by another license holder (someopne licensed to make the pen blanks).  I've only been studying military, not private corporations.  Everyone does have their own set of rules and regulations when it comes to using their marks.  I'll go more in depth when I feel I have a better handle on it.


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## Terredax (Aug 30, 2017)

Rather than interpreting or speculating from reading or research, I would contact the appropriate licensing office directly with any questions or concerns.

The link shows the contacts for each branch of military.

https://www.defense.gov/Resources/Trademarks/

They can answer your questions and get the necessary paperwork that you will require.

JMO of course.


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## Sylvanite (Aug 30, 2017)

Long ago, I had permissions to sell bullet pens with the emblems of the Marine Corps, Air Force, and Coast Guard.  The Navy's requirements were too onerous for me, and I never received a reply to my queries from the Army 

Some years back, however, all US military branches revised their licensing terms and rescinded previous agreements.  The new terms (and fees) were along the lines of the Navy's requirements, which seem to be geared to mass quantities - not worthwhile for someone selling piecemeal.  So, I stopped selling military logoed items.

Regards,
Eric


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## mbroberg (Aug 30, 2017)

Getting a license from the Marines is incredibly easy.  The have a Hobbiest License.  The application is HERE.  An annual fee of $30 and a sales cap of $5,000.00.  Distribution is restricted to Craft Shows, Direct Sales, Hobbyists own website, consignment stores and craft websites such as Etsy & eBay.  I completed and submitted the application on line yesterday and was notified that it had been accepted, and instructed to submit my $30 electronically today.  I received confirmation of my payment within the hour and expect my license in a day or two.  Very easy!


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## Mrbbcrafting (Aug 30, 2017)

The process for all are varied. Of course we are internet lawyers here, but one thing that is truthful is a lot of times the holder of these licenses will come a knocking sooner or later and reason why - it is apart of their trademark they have to actively pursue any and all, or loose that trademark right. All it takes is also one upset/pissed off member of a group who is made cause you made something they made or wanted to make and it can ruin you also. Seen it happen so many times in another craft profession. Honestly consult a lawyer - there is many variants to using logos - example big time are football quilts.. people buy the material with the logo on it, make something out of it and resell it.. Never seen someone get nailed for that yet, but its a example... so please dont say its gospel  i have never seen it happen before.


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## MRDucks2 (Aug 30, 2017)

My Marine Corps has always been a fan of cheap publicity. Interviews, staging landings for the news, movie and TV bits...

When I was getting set up for cornhole boards in Texas, the legal but less customer convenient means was to make and sell them the cornhole boards in any colors they liked and sell them decals they could put on themselves or they could supply decals and you could put them on. 

Tougher to do with pens, but makes me wonder if you resold licensed blanks, or somehow had the customer supply the blank, then you made the pen, you may come close to legal.  Just a thought. 


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## Happy (Sep 1, 2017)

helping Matt!!


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