# WHYYYYYYYYYYY (RANT)



## RAdams (Nov 17, 2010)

Why are the tubes for the Cigar kit different lengths? Is there a purpose for this? I mean other than the obvious answer of "Just to ruin beautiful blanks when you mount and turn the wrong half with the wrong bushings." I am absolutely sick of ruining amazing blanks because i thought i had the right tube, only to assemble the pen and find the refill sticking out a mile. 

Has anyone ever made a cigar pen using two long tubes instead of the long, and the short? Well, actually thinking about it, I guess you need the short tube to engage the transmission turner thingy on the cap/finial. 



I just finished half of a cast burl pen blank. It is duocrome green gold PR with natural edge Elm burl. I spent a couple of hours on this blank between making the blank, then CA glueing the air bubbles etc. turning, sanding, finishing blah blah blah. Totally impressed, and proud, I decided to go ahead and assemble the half i had ready. Put the refill in, and you guessed it. 

The other half of the blank is still ok to make the bottom of the pen out of, but this "top" tube is turned and finished to the bottom specs, so it is too small... Any ideas on a save for the top half of the finished pen? Or should I just save the other half for a toothpick keychain or something??


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## jttheclockman (Nov 17, 2010)

Hate to say this but you have no one to blame but yourself. If this was not the first time for your mistake and you didn't learn, I don't think you are going to get much sympathy:biggrin:

But if you want to wail away go ahead no one is listening:biggrin:

Mix an match my friend. Why people don't do it more is beyond me. You probably answered your own question as to what to do with it. Pay attention is the word of the day. Psst I am sure it has been done before and no one is going to live up to it though.


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## Russianwolf (Nov 17, 2010)

recast in clear, then use the right bushings.

If they were the same length the pen would look funky.


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## juteck (Nov 17, 2010)

I am dealing with a similar (but a little different) problem with the cigar, and came across this mod:

http://www.penturners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=70161

I haven't tried it yet, but by eliminating the center band and using the long tube for the top, and a second long tube for the bottom, I'm hoping it will work without having to shorten anything. I will still need to press the center band "bushing" into the inside of the top tube though to eliminate any slop.  The clip will be a hair too big since that end of the blank is sized for the nib end, but I will likely turn a small "beaded washer" that would transition between the blank end and clip end. I know I won't get to mine until the weekend, but if you happen to try it before me, let me know how it works out.


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## glycerine (Nov 17, 2010)

Ron, I'm with Mike.  Either cast in clear or build up one end with CA.  Then sand it to the right length and use the correct bushings this time around...


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## RAdams (Nov 17, 2010)

John t.,

I am not denying that it is my fault. In fact, It is totally my fault. I should have checked one more time obviously. You are also correct in that this is not my first "backwards cigar". I have done it a time or two at least. I guess i am dumber than most, or just don't learn from my mistakes, or what ever other negative comment you want to make about my ability to repeat the same mistake numerous times. For me, making pens is a fun time, and my mind often wanders into contemplation mode and i coast. Sometimes, I do dumb s#%t while coasting. I actually checked to make sure i had the right tube, but obviously my coasting was a bit deeper than my ability to pay attention. 

I wasn't asking for sympathy. i was asking for assistance, or maybe some discussion on possibilities, fixes, troubleshoots, etc. As opposed to "you suck" posts. If i wanted that type of reply, I would go to the other turning forums.

My post was more of a question to the engineering design aspects of the kit itself, and possibilities to salvage the blank. If the "big guys" are here listening, stealing our ideas, then why not hit them up about what we don't like, or understand about a kit? I was not ranting that i did it backwards. I make tons of mistakes, and have no need to point out my own downfalls. I was ranting about the tube lengths, and the design of the working parts of the kit.


PS. I think your reply was a fine example of why all the "what is happening around here" posts lately. Instead of trying to answer any of the questions, or even addressing the root of the thread, you simply pointed out my errors. Your post was a poor contribution to this site, but at least you did offer a bit of assistance when you suggested I mix and match the blank. Thanks for that at least.


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## RAdams (Nov 17, 2010)

juteck said:


> I am dealing with a similar (but a little different) problem with the cigar, and came across this mod:
> 
> http://www.penturners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=70161
> 
> I haven't tried it yet, but by eliminating the center band and using the long tube for the top, and a second long tube for the bottom, I'm hoping it will work without having to shorten anything. I will still need to press the center band "bushing" into the inside of the top tube though to eliminate any slop. The clip will be a hair too big since that end of the blank is sized for the nib end, but I will likely turn a small "beaded washer" that would transition between the blank end and clip end. I know I won't get to mine until the weekend, but if you happen to try it before me, let me know how it works out.


 

Thanks for the link! I will have to look closer at that, and see if i can cypher it out. If you get to it this weekend, please post a pic or two. If i get to it (I gotta make a couple of magic wands for the harry potter movie release customers first) i will post as well!


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## glycerine (Nov 17, 2010)

RAdams said:


> juteck said:
> 
> 
> > I am dealing with a similar (but a little different) problem with the cigar, and came across this mod:
> ...


 
Seriously?  that's awesome!  I'd really like to see pics of those if you get around to it.  I was a little ticked that they split the last book into TWO movies... THAT'S what you should be ranting about!!


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## jaybird (Nov 17, 2010)

Way to go RAdams my thought exactly, 
this is why I usually just brouse the threads instead of posting that much, some people would rather point out just how stupid you are or may be then to just chuckly to themself and give a better responce or to just go on their way,,
hope you find a saluthion to the problem and sorry I can't help,

Happy Turning..


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## Padre (Nov 17, 2010)

Russianwolf said:


> recast in clear, then use the right bushings.
> 
> If they were the same length the pen would look funky.



Great idea Mike.  I never would have thought of it, but it makes perfect sense.  You still get all the color, etc.  

Thank you.  A post like this is what makes IAP a great place.


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## jttheclockman (Nov 17, 2010)

WOW If you read the first part of your post I thought you were making fun of yourself. 

Hey Ron it was an attempt at humor. No that is why this site has problems because people have such thin skin. Hope you do find an answer. I am sure I will make the same mistake too. 

As far as complaining to the big guys. If you recall it was not long ago I started a thread with that very thing in mind and I was looking for complaints about kits hoping by some long shot someone with authority may read them. 

Here is another suggestion. Maybe you can make an oops band and glue it to the lower section. Maybe you can make a kitless pen from what you are left with. 

Good luck and I will try to hone my humor abit more. Do need to use more smileys I guess. :biggrin::biggrin::monkey:


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## RAdams (Nov 17, 2010)

Actually John, I caught the attempt at humor. It reminded me of a scene in the movie "Talledaga nights", where Will Farrell starts a comment with "With all due respect" and explains that by him saying "With all due respect", it allows him to say whatever he wants to say with no repercussion. He goes on to explain that it is in the Geneva Convention. Pretty funny scene in a hilarious movie...


I actually tempered my reply to accomidate (sp) the "comedy". I am just aggravated that it has become fashion to say something ignorant, and surround it with "I hate to say it but...." and a handfull of smileys. I was guilty of the same thing... I used to say "Not tying to stir the pot, BUT"... KNOWING that i had the spoon in my fist and was whipping it like crazy. 

I hold no grudges, against you or anyone else. I just wanted to use this opportunity to point out the validity of the recent uproar. I know you are a stand up guy (I still remember you from WR), and knew you would likely have a fairly positive outlook on what i said. Thanks for the excellent conversation! Seriously!! If we can't talk about what we think are the problems, then we are doomed to repeat them. 

And thanks for the ideas about the "oh crap" bands! Some nice accenting colors might set it off. I could even put some on the other blank so they match!


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## EBorraga (Nov 17, 2010)

Here's an absolutely crazy fix. This will be a personal pen if you do this. Just cut the refill shorter and use the short piece for the lower half. Then turn the long piece to the cap dimensions and assemble. You'll just have to customize the refill everytime you change it.

This is how Hillbilly Jones would do it:wink:


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## glycerine (Nov 17, 2010)

EBorraga said:


> Here's an absolutely crazy fix. This will be a personal pen if you do this. Just cut the refill shorter and use the short piece for the lower half. Then turn the long piece to the cap dimensions and assemble. You'll just have to customize the refill everytime you change it.
> 
> This is how Hillbilly Jones would do it:wink:


 
I think his problem is that he has two long pieces and NO short piece...


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## cnirenberg (Nov 17, 2010)

Ron,
I'm feel for you really I do.  That kit forced me to learn how to do "oops" bands.  Drives me crazy.  I still like the kit, but it can be a pain sometimes.  I have trimmed the refill too, but still......


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## soligen (Nov 17, 2010)

Ron,

Yes, you can make a cigar with 2 tubes the same length. I have done it. I posted a mod that deleted the CB on a cigar a couple weeks ago. That mod is actually easier if both tubes are long tubes becasue the extra length is about the same as the CB so then the activator doesn't need to be shortened.

I bought some 10mm tubes from my local woodcraft that are for the cigar letter opener - they are actually a bit longer than needed, so I cut to length.

Here is the mod posting I made:
http://www.penturners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=70161
This uses the shorter upper tube tube, but in my pith pen (see thumbnail) I used the longer tube:


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## glycerine (Nov 17, 2010)

soligen said:


> Ron,
> 
> Yes, you can make a cigar with 2 tubes the same length. I have done it. I posted a mod that deleted teh CB on a cigar a couple weeks ago. That mod is actually easier if both tubes are long tubes becasue the extra length is about the same as the CB so then the activator doesnt need to be shortened.
> 
> ...


 
Did you thread your custom nib or glue it in place???


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## soligen (Nov 17, 2010)

glycerine said:


> Did you thread your custom nib or glue it in place???


 
I glued it.  You have to remove the transmission to replace the refill


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## Rojo22 (Nov 17, 2010)

Depending on what bushing kit you buy, you either have 3 pieces or 4 pieces to keep track of on the cigar kit.

When I have new turners and present this kit to them, I take a sharpie marker and assign a number 1 through 4 on the bushings.  If you have one of the 3 piece bushings, the middle piece will have two numbers on it, one on each end.  I then take the instructions and have the student label which one should be appropriate for each piece of the blank on the instructions.  Sometimes we use spray paint in different colors for the marks and no numbers.  Either way, it gets the students used to what goes where, and they will use the labels for both the bushing and on the instructions in the future to not make the same mistake.

I use the cigar kit for several of the shell casing pens.  I have had several end up with the long end as the back of the shell casing pen (DAMHIKIT) because I didnt take the time to set it up correctly.  It makes for a much longer pen in my opinion, and just doesnt look right.  I have done the oops bands for the cigars to fix them as well, but what I usually do is make the band for both the ends, it makes it a little less obvious that it was an oops, and sort of a design thing.  Thats my story and I am sticking to it.....


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## EBorraga (Nov 17, 2010)

Might have lost me a little. Are both pieces turned? If you only turned the long piece to the cap dimensions, you can get your other bushings out and turn to size. Then turn your short piece to size. This is assuming you only turned half the blank. But if you turned both pieces on a mandrel at the same time I got no answer for ya. I TBC so I only do half at a time, then check for fit.


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## RAdams (Nov 17, 2010)

WOO HOO! THAT IS WHAT I AM TALKIN ABOUT!

Thanks for all the excellent replies! Lots of thinkin going on around here! I think i smell hair burning!!

I decided to go with the most rediculous fix i could imagine up!!

I had turned the short tube to the dimensions of the lower components, which left the entire blank too small in dia. to fit the center band. I went to my shop and completely disassembled all of the parts, and asked myself "W.W.T.D.". Hmmm.... I think They would find a way to mod the parts themselves as opposed to the blank.Tackle it from a different point of view.... The blank is fine, It is the parts that no longer fit. SO, I checked one end to the clip end, and it was a near match, Just some light re-sanding needed to get it to fit. The other end is where the center band goes, And now the CB is WAY too big, But i need something there to finish it off and protect the edge of the blank. I stuck the CB (minus the little gold ring) in a tube and mounted it in my drill chuck. I turned away the black paint and kept taking thin layers of metal off till i got it to the right dia. I did have to shorten the actuator a little, but it was a really fun repair that i think will really look sharp when it is all finished! 

I really appreciate all the links, ideas, suggestions, thoughts, and conversation. It has been a fun exercise for me in troubleshooting!!


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## RAdams (Nov 17, 2010)

PS, I will be adding pics soon!


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## RAdams (Nov 17, 2010)

soligen said:


> Ron,
> 
> Yes, you can make a cigar with 2 tubes the same length. I have done it. I posted a mod that deleted the CB on a cigar a couple weeks ago. That mod is actually easier if both tubes are long tubes becasue the extra length is about the same as the CB so then the activator doesn't need to be shortened.
> 
> ...


 

That is a really really nice cigar pen! Very streamline and sleek!


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## Dudley Young (Nov 17, 2010)

Don't know the answer other than measure twice and cut once. I'm doing this for a hobby and to have fun. I refuse to let trivial mistakes like that take that away. If I can't think of a quick fix, I throw it in the S**t can and make another. :biggrin: JMO


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## razor524 (Nov 17, 2010)

I have done this at least a couple of times.  Looking forward to your fix pictures!


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## bitshird (Nov 17, 2010)

Been there done that and sort of recovered the pen, I made a custom center band spacer.


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## Jgrden (Nov 17, 2010)

I love reading the RAdams RANTS.  I usually LMFAO.


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## RAdams (Nov 17, 2010)

Jgrden said:


> I love reading the RAdams RANTS. I usually LMFAO.


 

That is a compliment right??:biggrin:


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## David Keller (Nov 17, 2010)

I hope you work out a fix, but I won't be any help to you...  I generally chuck 'em in the trash when I screw up(which happens more often than I'd like to admit).  At work, everything has to be perfect, but in the shop, I've got the freedom to relax, turn up the music, and turn off part of my brain.

I actually sold one of the elm burl cast pens on a Jr. Gent this past week.  I think you made a great looking blank with that combo.  Looking forward to seeing what you come up with.


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## Jgrden (Nov 17, 2010)

RAdams said:


> Jgrden said:
> 
> 
> > I love reading the RAdams RANTS. I usually LMFAO.
> ...


Yes, some of the predicaments you get yourself into are hilarious. Probably not funny to you, in fact some are not funny, but I laugh at the funny ones. Like this one. 

Maybe I should shut up???


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## Smitty37 (Nov 17, 2010)

*Check twice, turn once*



RAdams said:


> Why are the tubes for the Cigar kit different lengths? Is there a purpose for this? I mean other than the obvious answer of "Just to ruin beautiful blanks when you mount and turn the wrong half with the wrong bushings." I am absolutely sick of ruining amazing blanks because i thought i had the right tube, only to assemble the pen and find the refill sticking out a mile.
> 
> Has anyone ever made a cigar pen using two long tubes instead of the long, and the short? Well, actually thinking about it, I guess you need the short tube to engage the transmission turner thingy on the cap/finial.
> 
> ...


 
I'm really sympathetic but you know I have to check and double check everytime that I have the bushings placed correctly.  If I depend on memory, i'm gonna be wrong about half the time.  I suspect you better adopt a similar policy.


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## RAdams (Nov 18, 2010)

Jgrden said:


> RAdams said:
> 
> 
> > Jgrden said:
> ...


 


By all means......... please don't!!

I enjoy the situations (Most of the time) that i end up in. That is how i learn to be a better pen maker. If i didn't mess up this pen, I would have never been forced to think of a fix. And if i didn't post about it, then others couldn't laugh at me!! I like the way it came out this time!! Give me a minute to post another reply, and upload my picture and i will attach it to this thread!!


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## RAdams (Nov 18, 2010)

David Keller said:


> I hope you work out a fix, but I won't be any help to you... I generally chuck 'em in the trash when I screw up(which happens more often than I'd like to admit). At work, everything has to be perfect, but in the shop, I've got the freedom to relax, turn up the music, and turn off part of my brain.
> 
> I actually sold one of the elm burl cast pens on a Jr. Gent this past week. I think you made a great looking blank with that combo. Looking forward to seeing what you come up with.


 



Well after you see this fix, you may opt to quit throwing them away, and just do this little repair!! What color was the last Elm burl cast in? Do you remember?? I sure don't. This one came out really nice! 

In fact, I have been trying to come up with a mod for a pen for you. I know you like Cigar pens as daily writers, so that was my goal. Now that i have modded a Cigar, I think it needs a worthy home!! Look for it in the next box of blanks headed your way!!!

Which leads me to this disclaimer / spoiler alert. I am going to attach a photo pf the pen to this thread on the next post. If you do not want to see it, then you may want to stop reading this thread now.






ONE






TWO






THREE






LAST WARNING




HERE IT COMES.......


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## EmersonMA (Nov 18, 2010)

Wow!  Well, at least you know someone is listening.  Good luck, can't wait to see the picture of the finished product.


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## RAdams (Nov 18, 2010)

Elm Burl cast in duocrome green/gold PR. Custom shaved center band minus trim ring. sanded to 600 paper, and to 12K MM. a few coats of thin CA to finish it off.


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## EBorraga (Nov 18, 2010)

Well, looks like a good fix. Probably not as fat either. Might have to experiment a little tomorrow in the shop.


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## RAdams (Nov 18, 2010)

Not near as fat! 

If i were doing it again, I would shave down the other half of the center band some as well. To make it smaller than the top instead of the same size.


Ernie, your sig is too much man. I love deviled eggs!! I gotta find me one of those chickens!


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## glycerine (Nov 18, 2010)

That's a pretty good trick, Ron.  I kinda like the way the brass shows through at the bottom.  One thing though, if you want the brass to stay shiney, you may need to coat it with something.


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## Jgrden (Nov 18, 2010)

RAdams, I would like to see you use the Jaeger approach to finishing. You will be happy with yourself.


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## RAdams (Nov 18, 2010)

What is the Jaeger approach? I am all ears!!


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## ldb2000 (Nov 18, 2010)

Great save Ron . Another Happy Accident .


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## RAdams (Nov 18, 2010)

Yeah.... it's happy accidents! I was close. 

I have read your signature musta been a million times and never got that. I always read it and thought to myself "Happy Accidents? my mistakes often cost me at least a tube or two, and sometimes they cost me components as well! Nothing happy about that." 

Now that I am on the winning side of the battle (which only rarely happens) I totally understand! It is a very happy accident! I am quite pleased with the outcome. In fact, I look forward to doing this mod again in the near future. First, I want to get an extra buffing wheel that i can strictly use on metal. That way, I can buff the metal finish off of all the components and they will match! 

This pen making stuff sure is alot of fun!


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## KDM (Nov 18, 2010)

I, too, "coast." When coasting, I sometimes contemplate. _"This is easy."_ Then I make a pigs ass of something and I think to myself _"This *isn't*__easy. If it was easy every muppet would be doing it and there'd be no demand for the talents of an artisan."_ I think the moral of the story is: don't let the mind wander!

Oh, and use a sharpie to mark the blanks after you cut them and before assembling the mandrel!



Russianwolf said:


> recast in clear, then use the right bushings.



I was actually thinking, recast your short tube in a different colour to the original. Go with black, say, and just make a feature of the fact that there's a black band at the end.


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## Jgrden (Nov 18, 2010)

RAdams said:


> What is the Jaeger approach? I am all ears!!


He is a member and uses BLO and CA combination. I use his method and follow up with Maquiers Car Polish and the woods shine like a new car. If he does not pick up on our conversation I will forward his instructions.


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## nava1uni (Nov 19, 2010)

I have taken to engraving the bushings when they look similar.  I do this for the streamline and others where there are minor differences and I have turned the blank to the incorrect bushings.  Since doing this I have not had any further problems.  It is quick, lasting since I don't turn it off and has had made a big difference for me.  Good luck with whatever method you decide to enlist.


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## RAdams (Nov 19, 2010)

John, I did a search and found what i believe to be the finish you were speaking of. I might have ot try it when i can scrape up the several items i do not have on the list of supplies. I will have some more medium CA in a week or so, and that alone should help at least a little bit!


Cindy, that is a genius idea about the engraving, but in all honesty, I had so much fun with the mod, I may not mess with it, and let fate determine the outcome of each Cigar from now on! That would add some flare to just making a cigar pen!!


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## jaeger (Nov 19, 2010)

RAdams said:


> First, I want to get an extra buffing wheel that i can strictly use on metal. That way, I can buff the metal finish off of all the components and they will match!
> 
> This pen making stuff sure is alot of fun!



Check out your Sears store. I think I paid 5 dollars for the last wheel that I bought there.


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## Jon-wx5nco (Nov 19, 2010)

Jgrden said:


> RAdams said:
> 
> 
> > What is the Jaeger approach? I am all ears!!
> ...



Please share!


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## Jgrden (Nov 19, 2010)

Jon-wx5nco said:


> Jgrden said:
> 
> 
> > RAdams said:
> ...


11/19/10, 5:10 EST, let me go out into the workshop and find the instructions. I can scan and email them to you. 

John


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## Jgrden (Nov 19, 2010)

Jgrden said:


> Jon-wx5nco said:
> 
> 
> > Jgrden said:
> ...


I think the best way is for you to PM jaeger and ask him to post the method. Since it is his system, it is best he be the one to share.


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## RAdams (Nov 19, 2010)

I found it by searching his screen name. 



http://www.penturners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=61562&highlight=jaeger


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## Buzzzz4 (Nov 20, 2010)

Lookin' good, Ron. I am impressed. Much better than my boring approach to the 3 or 4 or more cigars that I mixed up. I fell into the build up with CA method. Works, but not near as fun or creative.


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## RAdams (Nov 20, 2010)

Yeah, the thought of doing the CA buildup makes my nose hairs burn.


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