# Is it just me or has this place changed?



## Texatdurango (Jun 22, 2009)

To begin with this is just something that caught my attention a few minutes ago so isn’t something that has me bent over in anguish.  It's  more of an observation and a question to get some other perspectives since it might just be that I am missing something.

Seems like the good ole days are gone on the forum.  While some have always been tight lipped about sharing ideas, many have not and two years ago if someone posted about being stumped on a particular design several would post and help a fellow member out.  Now it seems like so many are working on their “secret” blanks and so busy selling them to other members that they are reluctant to help another pen maker out when they try to make one themselves.  Have we stopped being a band of kindred souls with common goals and interests sharing thoughts and ideas, seeing each other as perspective customers instead?

The post that caught my eye was in the advanced forum where a fellow asked about a herringbone design.  The design doesn’t appeal to me so I have never made one so can’t offer anything but I have seen dozens over the past couple years, enough that surely one of the 200+ readers to his post has an idea how to make one of these blanks and yet no one has offered a thing.

So, am I overreacting to something that is of no consequence or does anyone else see this change in the forum?


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## jkeithrussell (Jun 22, 2009)

I continue to get loads of unreserved help from lots of members.  I've personally never posted a request for help that wasn't answered -- even a few from you!


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## leehljp (Jun 22, 2009)

I kinda agree with this. Eagle was one who would not share his secrets (for a specific reason) directly, but would little by little if a person tried hard. Eagle's point was that he wanted people to try, learn and expand beyond what he did. Eagle felt that most people would not expand on an idea if they just copied it.

. .  But, Eagle never kept a design to himself for the purpose of "this is mine and I don't want anyone else doing this". While I am not quite in Eagle's camp skillwise, I agree philosophically, - but me being me - am a pushover on sharing techniques . . if I happen to know any that anyone wants.


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## skiprat (Jun 22, 2009)

Mmmmm, good question George.
But perhaps the question needs to be broken down a bit first.
The 360 herringbone pattern is a relatively new design that as far as I'm aware, only one person has really mastered. So perhaps until it is figured out by the masses should remain a saleable and even secretive design by it's master.
Celtic Crosses and Feathered blanks aren't being sold cos most people have understood how to do it. The full herringbone will get to that stage eventually. Same thing.

One of my pet hates has always been $%^*&*^% lurkers!!!! We all freely share hard earned methods and ideas and these sods are just quietly sitting in the background and making money from our labours.
This particular topic was raised a while ago and I was one of the few that really wanted most topics only viewable by ACTIVE members.

As far as sharing goes, this place still rocks. 99% of all I know about pens I learnt here and I'm sure that the rest will be learnt from here too. I think most people are eager to share ideas and like me, even get a buzz from it.
Someone recently posted a thanks for a little pictorial I did and it really made my day. So much so that I just wrote a new article very recently that Keith is working on at the moment. 

But I agree, this place has changed a lot. But I honestly believe that it has been for the good. In the main, anyway.

I'm gonna watch this topic like a hawk, as I'd really like to see what others have to say about it. I just hope it doesn't get sour


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## Daniel (Jun 22, 2009)

keep in mind that 200 views does nto mean 200 people have read the post. it could be 10 people that have checked back 20 times each. At the time I looked at the post it was surrounded on both sides my multiple posts that contained questions that where freely answered. Even the post in question has considerable attention to the fact no answer was coming. I do not see this as the rule but rather the exception. In effect evidence contrary to your concern that information is no longer shared on the group.


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## jimbob91577 (Jun 22, 2009)

I don't know - Everytime I see the words "Help" and "Alumilite" - I can almost guarantee that Curtis has responded to it at least once.   Every time I have asked for help - for instance trying to remove a coupler I had pushed in backwards on a pen kit - there were at least 3 useful responses within a couple of hours.  

I'm sure there are examples that confirm your hypothosis, but IMO, by and large the community helps each other out quite a bit.  I do think though, and have felt this way for quite a while, that unless a post is on the first page, the likelyhood of it being answered deminishes greatly.  I know that all questions/posts can't be shown on the main page, but during the day, I don't dive into the forums to look for posts I haven't read.  Perhaps the symptom you mentioned is a consequence of that and of people simply being busy - afterall it is warming up outside and folks are surely hitting the shop more.


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## aggromere (Jun 22, 2009)

I wish I knew how to do something special, but I don't, but if I can help I always chime in.  As for learning about pen turning, I have learned almost everything I know from people on the forums responding to my questions and by reading the tutorials.  I have gotten some very nice supplies at very good prices from members and have, and continue to participate in group buys.

R. Herrell, Visexp and Hank Lee have been extremely helpful to me in their responses to questions as have a lot of other folks.

I've only been a member for about 3 months so I can't comment on the good ole days.

There are still a lot of things I would like to learn that I struggle with, but not because people don't respond.  I do think a lot of people that are active on the forums are also sellers, but I think that is a good thing.

The one thing I would like to learn about that I haven't seen a lot of help on is how to thread barrels so I can make a completely kitless pen.  I would like to see someone that has the skill and the time to write a tutorial on how to do that.

I've learned, from the forums;

1.  How to drill on the lathe
2.  How to square blanks on the lathe
3.  How to turn on center instead of with mandrels
4.  How to do onlays or inlays
5.  How to make segmented pens (still working on it)
6.  How to make closed end pens.
7.  How to improve my photography and software to use.
8.  How to set up a website.
9.  Where to buy supplies and equipment and what kind to buy.
10. How to do a good CA/BLO finish.
11. I've even kinda figured out how to cast my own blanks, but I haven't tried it yet.
12. That a lot of guys and gals on the forums can make some incredible things to both inspire me and frustrate me. (but that is all about me lol).
13. How and why to sharpen and keep sharp tools.

I'm sure there are a lot of other things I have learned, but I don't remember them all.  When I first started I could barely turn a cigar pen.  Now I can make some pens that I am proud of.  I attribute it to my own perseverence and talent, but none of it would have been possible without the help I have received from the forums.

That's my 2 cents worth and probably overpriced at that.

Thanks to everyone for all their help.


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## Texatdurango (Jun 22, 2009)

So...... so far it sounds like I may be seeing something that isn't as big a deal as I thought.  As I said, I just read the other thread and to be honest wasn't aware that their was a "new" herringbone design and that only one or a few knew the technique.

Skip, I like your idea about "active" members being allowed to view certain forums.  Might be a great way to get more members actively involved.


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## Texatdurango (Jun 22, 2009)

aggromere said:


> ...I've learned, from the forums;
> 
> 1. How to drill on the lathe
> 2. How to square blanks on the lathe
> ...


Good grief... you've learned all that since March!  It took me that long to get a decent CA finish down pat. :biggrin:

You mentioned threading pen bodies and caps, were you thinking of using taps and dies or cutting with a lathe and thread cutters?  If using taps and dies, I could help out a little since I've done several dozen "kitless" designs.  Ask away in the "advanced forum" and see what happens.


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## aggromere (Jun 22, 2009)

I want to be able to use taps and dies.  I bought a set, but I'm thinking they are the wrong size.  Any help would be greatly appreciated.  A good start would be what size taps and dies to use on a jr gent and a gent.  They seem to be the best kits for me to start with.


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## stoneman (Jun 22, 2009)

Having only been a member for a bit under two years, I can't compare things to "the good old days". I can say that folks on this forum have been a tremendous help in both learning new techniques and inspiring improvement on my part. I turn only as a hobby, but greatly appreciate all that the many members have been willing to share. Even if folks only shared the really mainstream stuff (which doesn't seem to be the case), it would still be a great resource for many of us that don't live on the cutting edge. I'll close here by saying "thanks a million" for everything the IAP members have shared with me for the past couple of years. Maybe someday I'll know something myself that is worthy of passing along.


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## Texatdurango (Jun 22, 2009)

aggromere said:


> I want to be able to use taps and dies. I bought a set, but I'm thinking they are the wrong size. Any help would be greatly appreciated. A good start would be what size taps and dies to use on a jr gent and a gent. They seem to be the best kits for me to start with.


 
I'll put a few words together in the advanced forum and see if helps you any.  May be tomorrow before I post though.


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## Gary Max (Jun 22, 2009)

Heck --Steve your a good person to have as a friend----that's worth something these days.


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## wolftat (Jun 22, 2009)

I think part of this thread is pointing at me and I would like to address it. When I was trying to learn to make the herringbone 360, I spent roughly 3 months trying to get it together. I asked a couple of the guys that had made them if they could give me a hand, 2 people got back to me and the one that was doing it the way I wanted to do it asked me to not do a tutorial or to teach anyone how to do it. I gave my word to him and I stand by it to this day. I have had severral people contact me privately and ask me for the instructions and I tell them all the same thing, All I ask is that they make the same promise that I did and that they show me what they have done so far in working at it. I will not give instructions for the build, but I am wiling to help someone that has attempted to make a blank and is stuck. I have even gone so far as to send one member a blank that was in the middle of the build so they could use it for reference. As far as I am concerned, the herringbone 360 is a blank that can be made by anyone, if they are willing to put in some time to try it and not just look for a tutorial to copy. If the instructions are posted in public, they will soon be selling them in the supply houses and will be published in books. I am not going to help that along. In the time I have been making them, I have also designed and built 3 different jigs for making them tighter and to make them look better, I am not going to post pictures of them either, but am willing to talk with someone that wants to make the blanks and help them design their own jigs. So to wind this one up, if you want to make the blank, do the work and try it yourself, if that doesn't work out for you, contact the guys that are making them and ask them for some advice, don't ask for a kit or for a tutorial. I have never said no to helping someone that is willing to try for themselves first. Also, a PM is going to get an answer but I'm not going to answer a question in public, I have contacted some that have posted questions and answered what I could. You wouldn't want me to go back on my word , would you?


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## wolftat (Jun 22, 2009)

aggromere said:


> I want to be able to use taps and dies. I bought a set, but I'm thinking they are the wrong size. Any help would be greatly appreciated. A good start would be what size taps and dies to use on a jr gent and a gent. They seem to be the best kits for me to start with.


 What type of taps did you buy? The cap is a special triple start thread that you won't find in the stores. The numbers on my taps are M10x1 for the nibs and M12x2,4(P-O,8) for the caps. I bought my set from someone that bought them in a group buy that JJudge did a while back, I think Daniel was also doing one.


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## NewLondon88 (Jun 22, 2009)

I haven't reached the point where I can share much except beginner concepts.
(You guys would cringe if you actually watched me turn.)  But I chime in where
I can, even if it's just to back up an opinion already stated or to offer a different
experience. Most of what I've learned was by lurking here and then joining last
year as well as on another similar forum.
I don't think I've ever been refused an answer when I asked something though. And
I can't imagine refusing to give info if I have it. Like Skip said, it's a kick to have
someone value your opinion or experience.


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## John M (Jun 22, 2009)

I have only been here a couple of months, and I have been to a lot of forums, and this is the most generous forum I have ever belonged to!!! I have not asked for anything, and have had two members help me out with some product and or kits.  I get answers to all my questions, and always get complimented on my stuff.  There are many good people on here with a wealth of information.  And at the get together, it was the same.


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## BLLEHMAN (Jun 22, 2009)

wolftat said:


> ..... You wouldn't want me to go back on my word , would you?


 
Nope, If I can't stay true to my word, what have I left to give? I think that you said it well and I have great respect for that.


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## cnirenberg (Jun 22, 2009)

George,
I can't say much to this fact other than every question I have asked either directly on a post or PM has been anwered.  You, in fact have been instrumental in reviving my interest and love in penmaking.  I think the frustration is and will be when a general question is asked, with no research to previous threads, current and past articles, etc.  I can see when techniques are new to say "hey how do you do this"?  The really cool thing that has been repeated on this forum is "try this" or "read this post".  Figuring things out for yourself can be a real pain in the butt ant times, but is is truly rewarding.  

Peter, I can only offer what I know on my kitless experience, but I don't feel like I know anything compared to those who have gone and done before me.  Those folks have posted all I know, and I believe that is why the advanced pen making forum was created.  

George, I can send you a rough draft of something on a "How to...my kitless experience" for your review, comment and approval if you would like.  Please let me know.  I still believe that this is a top notch forum, and I have learned quite alot of things from it, and from the people who are a part of it.


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## hunter-27 (Jun 22, 2009)

Daniel said:


> keep in mind that 200 views does nto mean 200 people have read the post. it could be 10 people that have checked back 20 times each. At the time I looked at the post it was surrounded on both sides my multiple posts that contained questions that where freely answered. Even the post in question has considerable attention to the fact no answer was coming. I do not see this as the rule but rather the exception. In effect evidence contrary to your concern that information is no longer shared on the group.


 I believe "views" are per unique user.


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## Spats139 (Jun 22, 2009)

*Confession of a lurker... I guess.*



skiprat said:


> One of my pet hates has always been $%^*&*^% lurkers!!!! We all freely share hard earned methods and ideas and these sods are just quietly sitting in the background and making money from our labours.
> This particular topic was raised a while ago and I was one of the few that really wanted most topics only viewable by ACTIVE members.



*Disclaimer: This post is in no way meant as a criticism of the opinion offered by skiprat. If you get that impression after reading I have failed in making my point. "IF" you agree to this... read on.*

Hello, my name is Dale, and I'm a lurker. (Now you all say "Hello Dale" to your screen.)

I have been following this site since just before last Christmas. I stumbled upon it, and penturning for that matter, more by accident than by design; and I am thankful that I did. The members of this site have opened up for me, an activity that I might not otherwise have pursued (not that my wallet would have complained!) and that would have been sad for me. I have found an unexpected pleasure in crafting scores of pens, almost all of which have been gifted to family and friends to this point.

I have spent countless hours following threads that were meaningless to me at first; but the more I read, the more I understood, and the more I appreciated what was being offered. As I absorbed the information being offered in response to questions posed by other "newbies", I could reap the benefit without posting those questions myself. And by searching through past topics, I often found the answers I wanted without having to bother you by asking the  same question again for the umpteenth time.

My point is that "lurking", by my definition at least, is a natural stage in the learning progression. As a group you have taught me turning and finishing techniques; provided health and safety tips; made me aware of the nuances of kits and platings; and other things too numerous to mention. Most importantly, you have allowed me to participate, albeit quietly so far, in a community rich in talent, generosity, and humour. I thank you all for that.

More than a few decades ago, as a fledgling member of a high school band, I spoke to my father about getting me a better instrument. His reply, roughly translated, was that I didn't need a hundred dollar horn when I only had a two-bit lip. Well, when I look at the craftsmanship and artistry of people like skiprat... that's the hundred dollar horn. As soon as my skills transcend the two-bit lip level, and I think I'm just about there, you'll start to hear my toot coming from the back rows. 

Thanks for reading,
Dale :musical-note:


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## arioux (Jun 22, 2009)

Hi,

Perhaps there is something that migh give this impression that thing had change.  Trully, we see more hand made blank for sale that we use to have.  But at the same time we also see a lot of new idea.  I agree with those that prefer us to at least try before we just ask " wow how did you do it".

This being said, i never had anyone refuse to answer a private question if i ask a certain tip or talk with them about my progress and letting them know where i'm stuck. Everyone i asked just freely and happylly  put me on the right track, without giving me the whole answer.  And that forces me to try and learn.

Add to that all the great "creators" that just give away all their talent (Russ, Yoyospin and more....) altough they still sell their creations.  Well i think we don't take the time enough to thanks them.

So i tell you all.....

Thank you...


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## Jgrden (Jun 22, 2009)

Some good messages here. Thank all of you.


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## Scotty (Jun 22, 2009)

I guess I am like some others on here.  I really don't think I know enough to be of much help, but I am more than willing to if I can.  What I can do is offer encouragement and give a few "that a boy's" for the folks here who seem to be able to do anything and everything.  I have asked for help a few times.  Each time I got help from several members, including Neil.  I can't speak about the good ole days.  I do hope we are living in them now though.


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## johnnycnc (Jun 22, 2009)

I think there is just as much a "brotherhood" here as has ever been in my time here.
I see basic questions asked over and over again, only to be answered over and over.
Though, perhaps,maybe if someone has a lot of time and effort and thought in a special idea, they are 
not overly eager to blurt it out and disclose all the details for everyone to pick up like a penny off the street.
People do change, and that includes any of us.The longer you are around something, you become more familiar with it and maybe some of the sparkle fades away.
My perception of penmaking has changed a lot in the 3 years I have been a member here.
Maybe after a period of time you have become jaded or perhaps more critical in your mind of what does or does not go on. Just a hypothetical statement, not my opinion of you. 
Perceptions and viewpoints change. People also change, in general.
Ideas and methods shift,and so can our focus.
The forum would be stagnant if it stayed the same for years, and did not change. And change is inevitable.


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## wolftat (Jun 22, 2009)

Hey Johnny, did anyone ever tell you that you look a lot like Val kilmer playing Doc Holiday?:biggrin:


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## johnnycnc (Jun 22, 2009)

wolftat said:


> Hey Johnny, did anyone ever tell you that you look a lot like Val kilmer playing Doc Holiday?:biggrin:



Why, Neil..whatever do you mean?


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## Rollerbob (Jun 22, 2009)

Guess it is my turn to throw my .02 in. Been a member since 4/26/09. Since that time I have come from a wanabe to an average pen turner. Would not be to this point were it not for this forum and some of the most amazing craftsman sharing their work. This being said, not one has sent me by mail, fax or PM, step by step instructions on any design that I may inquire about. But, either by phone, pm or on the public thread, they have answered any question(s) that I have had. This forum has given me the courage to at least venture out of my comfort zone. Spent the good part of the day trying something I never thought could be done until I ventured onto this site. So, my hats off to you who have offered, inspired, directed and prodded me to this point!! Oh, as far as the herringbone goes...............I'll just buy one, then I will try to see how it is made!!:biggrin:


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## ngeb528 (Jun 22, 2009)

wolftat said:


> Hey Johnny, did anyone ever tell you that you look a lot like Val kilmer playing Doc Holiday?:biggrin:


 
Yeah, I noticed that too...:wink:


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## Rollerbob (Jun 22, 2009)

ngeb528 said:


> Yeah, I noticed that too...:wink:


 Almost looks like someone's huckleberry, don't he!!


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## LEAP (Jun 22, 2009)

George,
The biggest change I've noticed over the last few years is the level of goofing around. There used to be much more casual conversation and threads often went far astray with good natured banter. Kind of like Ole Doc Holiday on this thread but often much further out in left field. This is still the best forum I've found and I check in every chance I get. I really love to see whats being done and all the new ideas being developed. Some of the folks here are really out on the edge and I don't blame them if they hold an idea close to the vest for a while. Another thing that has changed and I think for the better is we don't see the instant request for a tutorial as soon as a pen is posted that used to be quite prevalent.  I expect we'll see more changes as time goes on and different people join or fade away but I believe the IAP will be my home page for some time to come.


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## Phunky_2003 (Jun 22, 2009)

I've been a member for a little more than a month.  Hadn't turned anything before 2 months ago.  I wouldn't have a clue about any changes.  I do know that when I have questions, if they aren't directly answered by searching previous posts or asking in a new post.  You will most definately get them thru PMs.

From my one on one dealings with the few I've had pleasure of dealing with I think everyone here does to the best of his/her ability without overstepping the bounds of betraying someones secrets.

Now if I could only become someones field tester........ lmao.

James


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## Gentleman jack (Jun 23, 2009)

Neil, is the triple start tap anything like a regular triple tap? If so, let me know.


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## ldb2000 (Jun 23, 2009)

Jack , a triple start tap has "Three" sets of threads on one tap , one above the next . It looks like a very fine thread tap .


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## wolftat (Jun 23, 2009)

Gentleman jack said:


> Neil, is the triple start tap anything like a regular triple tap? If so, let me know.


 Call me.


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## wvredbeard (Jun 23, 2009)

I am very new to this site, I'm just now getting started. I try to look in every day or so. Sometimes I log in and sometimes I dont. The one thing that I can say with out a dout is that this forum is bye far the best about sharing, and giving help. So thanks for all that I have read and for all the question that i know I will have. Thanks


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## Randy_ (Jun 23, 2009)

As one who has been around longer than many, I would have to say that I haven't noticed the type of change that George is talking about except in a certain few specific isolated instances.

My impression is that most all questions still get plenty of responses and only a very limited few don't draw much discussion......for whatever reason. Seems to me that members are just as generous with their knowledge and expertize as they have always been......again with the exception of a few isolated situations. I do think that maybe there are not quite so many questions being asked as was the case in the past; but I attribute that to the fact that there is a tremendous body of information built up in the archived posts and in the IAP library and a lot of folks are getting their answers there rather than by querying the general membership.

I would certainly agree that in other ways IAP has changed over the years. Part of it is due to the tireless efforts of Jeff and others to make improvements to the forum and part of it is just the natural change that evolves as the membership changes. Old members move on and new members come on board with new ideas and new ways of doing things.

George: I think you may have latched onto a few situations that might not be representative of the general performance of the forum. I think the good old days at IAP were great and five years from now when today "IS" the good old days, I expect I will be singing the same tune.:wink:


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## artme (Jun 23, 2009)

Yes it's different but not badly so - just different.

Still a good place to be.


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## jleiwig (Jun 23, 2009)

I personally don't see what George is suggesting.  For basic things that are common people are quick to answer and offer opinions unrestrained.  For more complicated things, I see the "teach a man to fish" mentality, which is what I love.


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## artistwood (Jun 23, 2009)

i share what i know and learn what i don't know. a lot of people here are in business. it is understandable that they want to keep the process of a unique sellable item a secret. just makes good business sense. once a lot of people figure out the secret, then they may feel more comfortable sharing their expertise. we all made a first pen. we all screwed up some pens (a lot in my case) to learn a better way. some of the folks here have probably spent hundreds of hours perfecting a blank be it segmented or cast, and invested a whole bunch of money. they should be able to keep their secret for awhile to recoup some of their investment. that sounds fair to me anyway. i have seen questions posted to dawn and ed about casting techniques, and to others about a segmented style. it seems that even though the answers could cost them sales, they have usualy been genrously answered. 
so here are my thoughts.....i appreciate the answers that have been given freely to further this endevour, and, i appreciate the secrets being witheld for reasons i am not experienced enough to understand yet. yea, i want to know it all now but i respect the fact i dont. i want everyone to share everything they know so i don't have to go through that learning curve but i haven't even began to pay my dues yet. i think as my skills improve, that most secrets will reveal themselves. untill then, i'm happily surprised by the "secret" blanks and the mysterious way in which they were made. gives me hope that i will get better and that all those "secret keepers" will keep doing what they do best.....encourage and inspire the rest of us to be better tomorrow than we are now......bear


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## Rojo22 (Jun 23, 2009)

I thought I would chime in here and post a few observations.  When my father and I were trying to learn to carve, we sat in awe at several projects that were completed.  We approached the artist, and explained we were new, and that we were inspired by his work, and would love to understand how he did it.  Needless to say, we were given a big brush off.  We ran into another carver at the same show who was very understanding, and walked us through the entire process, allowing us to take notes, and to also show us where we could make changes to incorporate some of our own unique style.  I will never forget that gentleman, and my father and I still carve today because of his generous tutelage.  He has since passed on, but we made one and only one promise for all of his attention and instilling of knowledge.  PASS IT ON.

I have been very fortunate to have the same type of people take me under their wing in many of the other wood working areas, and I am grateful to each and every one.  Again, the promise is that I take what I learn and FREELY pass it along. 

I take each of those as seriously as any debt I have ever incurred.  A daunting task at times, but I approach woodworking and life now in a totally different way because of these folks and their generosity.  I have only one policy, if I know it, you are welcome to the same knowledge I have, the only thing is I ask is for you to again, freely pass it along to anyone who asks you the same question.

I remember breaking things, blowing things up, horrible finishes, dull tools, ill fitting parts, and on and on......Some people think that everyone has to go through this in order to "graduate" to a higher level.  I disagree.  If I can save someone the frustration, and potentially quiting of our hobby by explaining something or showing them something, I am going to do it.  We have got to also get some younger folks into this hobby and start with the exchange of knowledge as well (thats a whole nother thread!).  Please pass what you know along, inspire someone, and make a difference in thier projects.

I have personally emailed Skiprat for help on one of his projects.  He was nothing but curteous and helpful, and coached me through a few of the techniques I was not experienced in.  I again am grateful for his knowledge and his patience!  I have not seen a level of helpfullness here lowered one bit, but as a matter of fact, the newer members have access to the same "old"  members and their knowledge as before, and I am very proud of how the information is given here on this site.

We had a discussion about the 360 degree herringbone blank at the Southeast Pen Chapter just this past weekend.  It was fun sitting around the eraser board sharing a process that may or may not actually create a herringbone blank, but I was able to sit around with some very talented folks and "brain storm".  We had a ball, but I am not sure we were any closer to a definite solution.  But that wasnt really the point of us sitting down to figure something out.  We tried, but had a great exchange of ideas.  I would have that conversation again in a heartbeat, even if we didnt resolve anything.

As for the herringbone pattern, some folks made a promise, and that should be respected as well.  If they are willing to share it offline or through other channels, so be it, but as a person who respects the wishes of the others who the knowledge came from, we have to respect those wishes.

My observations are not meant to start any flame wars, but to offer a view of someone who hangs around here quite often.


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## bruce119 (Jun 23, 2009)

wolftat said:


> a PM is going to get an answer but I'm not going to answer a question in public


 
Niel I took this out of content but I will tell my point.

First I did not read the the whole thread and every post it's too long now and not enough time. 

I am one who sits on booth side of the fence. I still think this is a great community. There is much to be learned and much is shared. I am sure there a few that would keep there design secret and I now can understand that. After you spend months and countless hours designing you can understand. On the other hand I myself like to show off my work I get great pleasure in hearing "that looks nice".

I always try to answer questions but as Niel said if you want to keep something not so public do not use the public forum because if you do the whole world knows it now and forever.

But I never had anything that big to hide 

This place is still great and as far as selling. Buyers can make there own choices. I think most sellers here beat the major suppliers in cost and design. There are a few that mite try to raise the price but the competition keeps that in check. And like they say you get what you pay for.

Enough said probably too much I tend to do that:foot-in-mouth:

Thanks
Bruce


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## dasimm (Jun 23, 2009)

George,

I have to say that like so many here I have never run up against this issue. I have found that many have gone out of their way to provide assistance, guidance, and information. For this I am eternally grateful.

Recently I got a private PM with invaluable information that prevented me from making a somewhat costly mistake. I am indebted to that person (those people) and hope to repay in kind. Kind of a pay-it-forward, karma, or what ever you want to call it. I believe many live by that creed here on this forum.

Having said that I believe you and a few other seem to live on the cutting edge of pen design and may have a slightly different perspective than those of us in the throngs of the masses. Your peer audience is significantly smaller than ours.

Maybe someday when my skills have improved beyond my current level I can be more of a positive influence in the forum.


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## ed4copies (Jun 23, 2009)

*Sunshine required!!!*



Spats139 said:


> *Disclaimer: This post is in no way meant as a criticism of the opinion offered by skiprat. If you get that impression after reading I have failed in making my point. "IF" you agree to this... read on.*
> 
> Hello, my name is Dale, and I'm a lurker. (Now you all say "Hello Dale" to your screen.)
> 
> ...



Hey Dale!!!

Get OUT of the SHADOWS!!!!  If you can write like this, we NEED your input ----   Keep it coming!!!!


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## Daniel (Jun 23, 2009)

Dale, I agree with Ed, Very nice comment.


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## Alex Stewart (Jun 23, 2009)

*Alex Stewart*

Hi,
I was interested in the thread "things aint what they used to be " Well I can,t go far back in history so I can't  quote,But one guy said he was a lurker I am sure there is a better word for it ,But I would like to stay  a lurker a little longer. I have made made pens for some time ,but nowhere near the quality I have seen on this site I think I will learn a lot just by lurking. 
A keen Scottish lurker.


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## Trevor (Jun 23, 2009)

I would like to thank Dale for his insight into this discussion.  I think his analysis of "lurkers" is spot on.  I have been turning pens for about a year and a half now.  In that time my skills and techniques have improved tremendously and at a rate faster than I could have imagined.  None of this would have been possible without the wealth of information available on this forum.  I am truely grateful for the skilled craftsmen here who have always shown a willingness to help those of us trying to learn the craft.

I have only recently begun to take a more active role in the forum.  Frankly, this is because until recently I have felt that I had little to offer.  So, I "lurked" until I reached a level of skill I thought qualified me to post my thoughts on a particular suject.  The point to this needless rambling is that new members often feel intimidated by the wealth of knowledge possessed by longtime members.  However, these "lurkers" often become valuable contributors.  This, I think, is something we should all keep in mind.

From a former "lurker" let me just say that I sincerely appreiciate all of the help I have received from this forum.  I hope that our spirit of sharing and friendship continues.


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## jkeithrussell (Jun 23, 2009)

Trevor said:


> The point to this needless rambling is that new members often feel intimidated by the wealth of knowledge possessed by longtime members.


 
Their knowledge doesn't help you unless you ask them to share it.  I don't have a problem with lurkers, but you learn more if you interact.


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## babyblues (Jun 23, 2009)

I especially appreciated the comment about needing younger people to become involved with the hobby.  I would consider myself a "young guy" and sometimes I get impatient to know what only experience can teach.  I try to keep in mind that many of the skills that we see showcased are the result of years and years of trial and error.  But I also agree that this process of trial and error isn't some right of passage.  Imagine our world if inventors had been stingy in sharing their inventions or if scientists had been reluctant to share their discoveries because they were afraid that "big business" was going to "rip them off".  The fact is that we all benefit every single day from people who have been willing to "pass the knowledge on", so why not emulate that here?  I think that we all do pass the knowledge on here with the exception of an extremely rare instance.

Here's what I think about the 360 herringbone pen.  I think that public tutorials are great and have contributed greatly to my learning curve.  However, there is something to be said about learning by doing.  Neither Chip or Neil have been unwilling to share anything, they just aren't willing to give more than is necessary for people to figure it out for themselves.  I think the point here is that this isn't just a freebie, it's going to cost you something.  Not money...time and effort.  If you make a genuine effort to figure this out, Chip and Neil are willing to help, but they're not going to just give you the answer.  "Give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day.  Teach a man to fish and he'll eat for a lifetime."  If we LEARN how to figure this particular thing out, than we're likely to have the ability to figure out other things and maybe even come up with unique things of our own.  That's far better than just having a set of step by step instructions for everything.  Who knows, one of us might discover a more efficient way to do it and have something to teach Chip and Neil.


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## Tanner (Jun 23, 2009)

Yeah, I've noticed a few things over the years here.  For the most part, I've seen many techniques shared here.  I disappear from time to time because of the cliques that were on here.  You couldn't be critical of something without all that persons buddies jumping on you.  As far as sharing though, I've learned enough to be slightly dangerous behind the lathe, because of the wonderful sharing attitude that was here.  Maybe I'll lurk a little here to see what the attitude is now.


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## keithlong (Jun 23, 2009)

Being a new member here I want to say a big thank you to all of you who have answered all my questions. I have been a wood worker for the past 25 years, and I just recently ventured into pen turning., and I really enjoy it. I like to work with wood and always have and hopefully in the near future I plan on experimenting with doing some segmented blanks. I just recently dicovered making rifle cartridge pens and the first two pens that I sold were cartridge pens. I am one who has always loved just making things and passing them on to friends and family members. It is a way that I can give presents that will have a lifetime meaning to the ones that recieve them. I am very thankful for all the ideas and help that i have gained from you all. This is a great forum and I check it out daily. I too, love to hear encouranging words and comments as well. So if I post a pic of something i come up with and anyone wants to know how it was done, just ask me. I do have full respect for those of you here that make these pens to sell, and if I do ask how it was done for my own use, and you respectfully decline, i am not affended. I trually understand. I used to make solid cedar chests to sell to the public. I was once asked for a pattern by a gentleman who wanted to make one for his daughter, so I gave him the demensions and wrote down the instructions for him to make one, he then just looked at me and said, I will just let you make me one. That is more time and work than I want to do. With this said I do understand that it takes alot of time and work to come up with something that is different and new. And now knowing the basics of pen turning, there is a whole lot of experimenting that I am going to be doing. Again THANK YOU for all your kind words and encouragement and very knowledgeable information. I am sure I will have some questions in the future. I think I have said enough. Sorry for being so long. Keith


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## wolftat (Jun 23, 2009)

babyblues said:


> Here's what I think about the 360 herringbone pen. I think that public tutorials are great and have contributed greatly to my learning curve. However, there is something to be said about learning by doing. Neither Chip or Neil have been unwilling to share anything, they just aren't willing to give more than is necessary for people to figure it out for themselves. I think the point here is that this isn't just a freebie, it's going to cost you something. Not money...time and effort. If you make a genuine effort to figure this out, Chip and Neil are willing to help, but they're not going to just give you the answer. "Give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to fish and he'll eat for a lifetime." If we LEARN how to figure this particular thing out, than we're likely to have the ability to figure out other things and maybe even come up with unique things of our own. That's far better than just having a set of step by step instructions for everything. Who knows, one of us might discover a more efficient way to do it and have something to teach Chip and Neil.


Thank you, I am looking forward to the day someone can come up with a more efficient way of doing these. The 8-10 hours of prep and build time that goes into each blank is being cut down by special fixtures that allow me to make the components quicker and more accurately. One of the many reasons that I will not teach this, is that I am still a student who is still learning myself. 
In the past I have looked at pens that others have made and have spent weeks trying to figure them out, usually I can get it down rather quickly. It took me about 3 days to figure out the spider web pen and then I noticed it was in the library as a tutorial. I had fun for those 3 days and made a lot of mistakes. One of the mistakes is being made into a whole new design and if it works out, I will have it done as soon as I am back turning. This is how new designs are developed, try it for your self and make something new that is yours, then you can decide if you want to go public or if you want to keep it quiet.

I have to say that half the fun of making these is having people say "how did you do that, I am going to have to figure it out" I have been in contact with many of those people annd have offered to assist if they wanted my assistance.


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## akbar24601 (Jun 23, 2009)

Well, I guess I need to throw in my $.02 here too. When I first saw this thread come up I was very apprehensive, thinking "this could get ugly fast!!!". Having read through all of the replies thus far I am very glad to see that it has stayed very positive and upbeat!

I have not been on here long and have no ideas of the good ole days. I never knew Eagle though I certainly have heard things about him. I guess you could say that my train of thought as far as teaching/showing are very much in line with his. Refer to Hanks reply earlier in this thread. There is an absolute wealth of information available on this site and we all owe a great debt of thanks to those who were willing to share. I think that at one point or another we have all gathered very valuable information from them.

All of that having been said though, I think that a man will learn far more and improve his skills to a greater level by actually working through those things that he does not know as opposed to having them placed in his lap. I will certainly speak for myself and I know that this is also shared by some of my counterparts that we are more than willing to help someone out and coach them along through a process. This is by no means a "Right of Passage". There is nothing to be gained by any such nonsense. The human mind is a constantly growing/diminishing phenomenon. The majority of us get to choose which side of the fence it will be on. Yes, doing what we do helps to keep the mind active. Add a new routine, still more activity. Feed a new process to that person and there is hightened activity. Walk with that person as THEY work through that new process and there is HYPER activity!!! And it is that hyper activity that not only helps their mind through that new process but in wanting to try and develop new ones from there.

Certainly, the 360 HB seems to be somewhat of a hot topic in this thread, so I might as well chime in on that one too. It took me 4 overly obsessive days to figure out the HB. All I did was eat, drink and sleep HB!!! Needless to say I was very proud/relieved when I finally figured it out. True, there is a part of me that says "I worked too darn hard figuring that out just to give it away!!!". But, I know that there is far more to it than that. I have had plenty of people PM me about the HB and I am willing to help each and every one of them, but I also tell them up front, they are gonna have to do it and I am just there to help guide where I can. I know that they will be much better off that way and then they can be PROUD of what THEY have accomplished! I don't feel that there is much being done on this forum or at least by myself that cannot be done by everyone on here. But, not having everything blurted out helps to keep some processes fresh. We are all at different levels of both skill and creativity. If we were all Picasso or Dali then those two would have been an absolute bore. Not to say that they could not have been copied, but can something new have been added to their work to make it that much more of a masterpiece.

Ok, I don't know if I am boring all of you, but I am certainly boring myself at this point. So, I will leave it at this. I am still constantly amazed by all of the helpful souls that I see offer assistance even when assistance is not asked for. I certainly appreciate those that are willing to help but also have a desire to help that person to grow.


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## cnirenberg (Jun 23, 2009)

Steve,
Well said.


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## workinforwood (Jun 23, 2009)

I have not noticed hardly any change at all.  Seems to me we are all mostly trying to help each other.  There's a few instances where we hesitate to procede too much, but we have that right.  You come up with something extra unique and special, you try and hold on to it awhile.  I can appreciate that.  Look at all the new blanks all the big sellers are now carrying that where developed by people here and taken back by them for big proffits...circuit board pens, herringbone pens, abalone pens...just to name a couple.  I bet they watch the classifieds and see what sells best.  If anything should be private, it sure should be the classifieds.  Coming soon...Berea carbon fiber blanks for $5 made in china...you know it's coming.


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## Verne (Jun 23, 2009)

George,
I saw the post you referred to, about the herringbone, and I ignored it. I ignored it because I don't have a clue as to how it's made. Couldn't offer any help so went to the next topic.
Just my thot's,
Vern


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## theturningcircle (Jun 23, 2009)

Hi George,
I'm the culprit who originally asked the herringbone question. Our threads seem to have inspired a bit of activity on the site and I'm pleased to say that I think I may have sorted it out. I'll let everyone know in about a year when I've actually done it.:wink: Many tips and suggestions have resulted from my question so perhaps the place hasn't changed that much. 
Many thanks to all those that have thrown some thoughts and clues in my direction.
Ian.


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## wolftat (Jun 23, 2009)

What's a herringbone 360?


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## bruce119 (Jun 23, 2009)

wolftat said:


> What's a herringbone 360?


 

Don't they use that for fishing


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## Rmartin (Jun 23, 2009)

The 360 herringbone has always been a hush hush don't tell how it's made pen from the beginning, so that hasn't changed.

I understand and respect those who have learned the secret with help of others who request it not to be posted publically. I don't agree with this policy which is why I haven't asked any questions on how it's done.

I'm just glad this is a rare occurance on the IAP.


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## babyblues (Jun 23, 2009)

wolftat said:


> What's a herringbone 360?



It's an annual race accross the African Sahara carrying baskets woven from bullrushes full of pickled herring.  Total distance = 360 kilometers.


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## workinforwood (Jun 23, 2009)

The one I was looking at this morning at the Captains house was a 6 sided herringbone he caught with something called an Akbar!    hmmmm...so I sit here and reflect, and this is my so called answer to the puzzle, maybe I'm right, maybe not..I think I am.  You cut several strips of the same width, lets just say several 3/8 wide by 7/8 thick and you glue them all together into a panel. Sand the panel flat.  Make a 30 degree crosscut at the end of the panel with a chops saw.  Set the fence on the tablesaw to 3/4" wide.  Set the angle against the fence and make as many rips as you can from the panel.  Flip every second panel and glue them back together in pairs only.  Now you have a flat herringbone..like Bruce Robbins avatar, but only in pairs, not every single one together into a new panel.  Now go back to the tablesaw and tilt the blade 45 degrees for a 4 sided or 30 degrees for a 6 sided herringbone. Now you rip the pairs so they become long triangles.  oh...that is scary!   Now I change my mind.  Glue all the herringbone pairs together which I said not to do.  Now go back and rip them..this gives you some meat to play with for safety.  The last piece left you can throw away or make an angled pen from.  With 6 uniform staves, you glue them together, being sure to alternate and match the seams all the way around the blank.  I would use normal extended wood glue.  Hold them together in your hand like a bundle with all the seams lined up, then put a dab of thick CA near the ends at each seam and spray with a shot of accellorator...the CA will help hold them in alignment.  Use several round hose clamps to clamp it together and let it dry.  This is what I think the answer on 4-6 sided herringbone is.  May be more than one way to skin that cat too, but this way I believe will do it.  You could even make it have 8 sides..but the more sides, the harder to keep it lined up.  If I remember right, Malcolm Tibbets has something very similar to this he does with bowls, and I believe it's called the "ring of fire"..but don't quote me on that, but he does have this in his book, just not so many verticle peices, because it's an open ring of staves rather than a closed one.

Oh..Gary didn't tell me this is how it's done. I don't think he has any idea, or maybe he does.  This is just my theory and it seems to work out well in my brain anyhow..I'm just too busy to try it right now.


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## akbar24601 (Jun 23, 2009)

Jeff, God bless you or anyone else that tries to do it that way!!!!! No, that's not it and please people, DON'T RISK YOUR PRECIOUS LITTLE DIGITS TRYING IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I must say though Jeff, if you get to stare at Gary's that certainly puts you at a better advantage than most! Was he kind enough to take the pen apart for you? It is a Sierra after all, nice and easy to take apart


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## akbar24601 (Jun 23, 2009)

Sorry, but you forgot to add Grueling! It's an GRUELING annual race across the African Sahara carrying baskets woven from bullrushes full of pickled herring. Total distance = 360 kilometers.



babyblues said:


> It's an annual race accross the African Sahara carrying baskets woven from bullrushes full of pickled herring.  Total distance = 360 kilometers.


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## workinforwood (Jun 23, 2009)

No, I didn't see the ends of it Steve.  But I've read the Malcolm Tibbits book and used several of his things in pens, and he has something really similar to this, but it is done just like I describe, but using a vacuum fence setup which I don't have. It's scary cutting staves, but I still believe that way would work.  I'll be sure and plan a trip to Florida for the hands on...maybe next year.  Would be great to take the kid to Disney world or land, whatever.


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## DurocShark (Jun 23, 2009)

I guess until I have a super special technique, my comments are worth what you paid. But I've always been unafraid to share knowledge, however it's gained. Trade secrets are fine, but to me if something is a trade secret, don't flash it around on a site dedicated to learning such things and expect folks to not get bothered. (I can only think of one instance where I felt the poster was doing a "NEENER NEENER" to us.) 

As for the 360... Something I've wondered about, haven't been able to pull off yet, but now have it figured out thanks to one tip in that other thread. I have no problem with the way that thread was handled. I thought it was great. Without having made the attempt, the tips wouldn't have made any sense. I love that sort of thing, since I'm the kind of fool who tries to do stuff first, THEN asks how after the pile of broken tools gets too big.


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## Jerryconn (Jun 23, 2009)

I wanted to make a quick comment about the part of the thread where the "Lurker" issue was brought up.  I have been a member here for over three years and early on was very active.  But as life sometimes does, it diverted my attention away from penturning for nearly  two years.  I don't share this information often only because I don't feel very comfortable in doing so, I do it now only to illustrate a point.  
In November 07 my Father passed away, he had been in declining health for nearly a year before.  Then on Christmas day 07 (only a month later) my brother (younger) passed away very unexpectedly. And boy I can tell you that was a blow. 
As a result I had most of 08 trying to take care of my Father's estate, my Brother's estate and my Mother.  
Then in November of 08 my Mother became very sick and had to have open heart surgery to replace two of her valves. She finally came home in Feburary 09 and I guess will never fully recover and will always require some of my time.  
Then in March this year my wife could not go any further and had to have her knee replaced.  She is now about 70% recovered and will fully recover in time.
I guess what I am trying to say is that,  sometimes we not "Lurkers" by choice but are forced into that roll. I can only hope that I would not be allowed access to talent and resources because of lifes events. 

Life is starting to settle down for me somewhat and I am starting to spend more and more time in the shop.  And you should start seeing me around more and more .......at least until I have to take another break later this year for my hip replacement.

Please don't take this as belly aching or anything like that, I know we all have obstacles and challenges in life to deal with and I am not implying that mine a worse than anyone elses. Thanks for allowing me to share this.


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## tommyd (Jun 23, 2009)

If you don't like Lurkers" maybe you should have a privet forum. Some people just don't have a lot to say so they just look and learn from other people.

Sorry for being just a  "LURKER"


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## CSue (Jun 23, 2009)

wolftat said:


> I have had severral people contact me privately and ask me for the instructions and I tell them all the same thing, All I ask is that they make the same promise that I did and that they show me what they have done so far in working at it. I will not give instructions for the build, but I am wiling to help someone that has attempted to make a blank and is stuck. I have even gone so far as to send one member a blank that was in the middle of the build so they could use it for reference.



One thing I have valued in this forum is just what Neil said . . . I can't even begin to say what I've learned from the wonderful and ingenious people in this group.  As I stated in another thread, I think it was aa brilliant idea to present a kind of "brain storming" thinking about it thread.  When the emphasis is on fostering creative process and encouraging another turner to exercise their grey cells, we all can grow more. 

And as for the "tutorial" thing . . . there was an incident some weeks ago that was a wake up call to me - that this really IS an "open forum."  There is an entire internet world out there with zillions of people we don't know who can eavesdrop in here with a simple search engine.

I admire Neil's integrity as well as his generosity.  

And I think it's time we all recognize, yes, George, some things have changed.  but we who are members of IAP valule our combined knowledge and curiosity of turning in many forms.  And we value our fellow members, their talents and skills.  Though there may never be "a tutorial," if you want to learn and have the drive and curiosity to grow in your skills, theres still no better place to be.

That's all IMHO.


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## GouletPens (Jun 24, 2009)

Lurk if you want, but trust me it is much faster to post a question and have someone answer it right away. You might get a little flak at first if you're completely ignorant, but as long as you're honest about your ignorance you'll get plenty of help here. Clearly, I'm not a lurker, and I've learned more than if I was (and others may have inadvertently learned from me too!).


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## wolftat (Jun 24, 2009)

I have to admit that I was a lurker for about a year before I joined and became active. I was busy working and didn't really have a lot of time to get involved in things, but I enjoyed reading about a subject that I was interested in. In my opinion, it's not the lurker that is a threat here, it is the corporate spy that is here to learn what people like so they can copy it (poorly usually) and mass produce it and cheapen it. I for one like a one off piece a hell of a lot better than a massed produced piece.


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## ldb2000 (Jun 24, 2009)

Ok for all the lurkers out there . NO one is picking on you for lurking but you should chime in once and awhile to let us know you are out there and give us a neighborly "Hi" . This forum is about more then just pen making , it's about "Other things we make" and "Finishing" and "Casting" and..... you get the idea . 
Even if you know less then nothing about pen making , you might have the answer to the question that someone here needs . We all have other hobbies and talents besides pen making . Maybe you know about Jewelry making and could give some insight into casting a clip or center band , or maybe Model making and you could help with information about casting resins or mold making , or ...??? well you know what I'm getting at . 
You joined this forum to learn about pen turning , maybe it's time you kicked in with something you know about and help someone here with a problem that your other hobby has an answer for . 
This forum was founded to help advance the hobby of pen turning , which has become much more diverse then just turning a pen .


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## nava1uni (Jun 24, 2009)

I have been a member for a little over  a year.  I have never asked a question that wasn't answered with generosity.  Even though I still consider myself just a beginner I find myself sharing because it is a good way to learn and some things I do might make it easier for someone else.
 I like that everyone shares their ideas, their different ways of doing things, and their enthusiasm for all aspects of turning, not just pens, but mostly.
I have met people from all over the world, who share a common interest, and have formed a community that reaches out to each other with support and friendship.  I have even had the opportunity to meet other pen turners in Northern California and Nevada.  I have had people PM me with answers and received lots of encouragement in what I have been able to create.


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## leaycraft (Jun 24, 2009)

I belong to another  forum on the web related to magic, some topics require at least 50 posts.  since this site  is fully moderated, just signing on and posting "I agree", or "good idea" does not build your post count (usually, I know people find a way around rules) .  Unitl you become an active participant . 50 posts areas of the site are blocked to you.  Lurkers still exist out there but its harder for them to get to the "meat and bones " areas.  This might be something for moderators to consider.     john


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## leaycraft (Jun 24, 2009)

Continuing my thoughts, I'm at the stage where I'm learning ( teach HS and as of Friday have time to spend in shop) and have lots of ideas and things to try out and learn.  Consequently I will post to ask questions and download tips and ideas.  One of these days I'll think I have something worth showing and I'll upload my work. 

Thank-you to all who have helped me, will help me and especially all those who give me a standard to work up towards.    T- 48hrs and schools out!   john


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## bruce119 (Jun 24, 2009)

I too was/am guilty of lurking. It took a few months to come out. I am still a lurker on quite a few other forums. I read it all and take it all in but just don't have time to participate in all the other forums.

Some I don't know who but I see a few that show up all the time in this and other forums. I wounder how do you get any work done. this darn computer takes up so much of my time. I guess some of you have your computer rite next to your lathe. I must admit my computer is on-line all the time and I do check the email every time I walk past it.

.


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## Ronald M Cordes (Jun 24, 2009)

Guess I have been a lurker too, but man...have I learned a great deal from all of you.  It seems that I just don't come up with any New ideas that haven't already been posted.  I really do appreciate your devotion to this site and hopefully I will do a better job of being more proactive in the future (especially after I retire from my full time job).  Thank you all for being so helpful and supportive.  This is a great forum!!!


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## mbroberg (Jun 24, 2009)

In the short time I have been a member here I have learned just about everything I know about pen turning from this community.  I don't have to ask alot of questions because answers to those I do have can usually be found by searching the forums or the Library.  Those I have asked have been answered by members who are more than willing to help.  If I can help someone, I will.

From the moment I posted on the Introduction forum I have felt welcome.  No one has ever denied me any information.  What's more. the members are not only helpful, but friendly.  GAD5624 (Grant) lives near me, contacted me and we plan on getting together soon.  Next month I'll be in Curtis' (MesquiteMan) city and looking forward to taking him up on his offer of a visit.
You are always going to have some people who, for whatever reason are all take and no give.  But overall I think this is a very giving community that I am glad to be a part of.
Mike


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## GouletPens (Jun 25, 2009)

leaycraft said:


> I belong to another forum on the web related to magic, some topics require at least 50 posts. since this site is fully moderated, just signing on and posting "I agree", or "good idea" does not build your post count (usually, I know people find a way around rules) . Unitl you become an active participant . 50 posts areas of the site are blocked to you. Lurkers still exist out there but its harder for them to get to the "meat and bones " areas. This might be something for moderators to consider. john


 ....sooooo... you're saying we should make the good sections so you can't see them?:wink:


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## wolftat (Jun 25, 2009)

GouletPens said:


> ....sooooo... you're saying we should make the good sections so you can't see them?:wink:


 It sounds to me that if there are dues to pay, he is willing to pay them. I liked his post and agree with the notion.


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## nava1uni (Jun 25, 2009)

I think that you cannot access some areas if you are not registered.  I personally feel that I came here to IAP because I could read information and after registering I could see pictures.  If it had been closed I might not have returned.  I would like those interested, or think they might be interested, to be able  to access information and bring new ideas so that IAP can continue to thrive and grow.


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## ldb2000 (Jun 25, 2009)

I think in some ways this forum has changed in the last few months . We as an active community here on the forum , the people who participate in the group has grown in numbers , but with that growth the overall tolerance level of everyone has gotten better . This thread a year or so ago would have deteriorated to the point of having to be locked . I think this is one of the best changes we have gone through .


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## Randy_ (Jun 25, 2009)

nava1uni said:


> I think that you cannot access some areas if you are not registered. I personally feel that I came here to IAP because I could read information and after registering I could see pictures.  *If it had been closed I might not have returned.....*


 
As I recall. we had this same discussion not too long ago and Jeff even posted a poll to get the feelings of the membership, so we are just rehashing recent history.  I don't recall that there was an overwhelming preference; but the majority seemed to prefer a more open forum with only a few restricted areas.
 
Personally, I think Cindy makes an excellent point in suggesting that a tightly closed forum is very likely to drive folks away and be counterproductive to goal of adding new members and educating those who want to learn more about the craft.


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## jhs494 (Jun 25, 2009)

Texatdurango said:


> Seems like the good ole days are gone on the forum. While some have always been tight lipped about sharing ideas, many have not and two years ago if someone posted about being stumped on a particular design several would post and help a fellow member out. Now it seems like so many are working on their “secret” blanks and so busy selling them to other members that they are reluctant to help another pen maker out when they try to make one themselves. Have we stopped being a band of kindred souls with common goals and interests sharing thoughts and ideas, seeing each other as perspective customers instead?


 
I could not agree more.


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## babyblues (Jun 25, 2009)

Texatdurango said:


> Seems like the good ole days are gone on the forum.  While some have always been tight lipped about sharing ideas, many have not and two years ago if someone posted about being stumped on a particular design several would post and help a fellow member out.  Now it seems like so many are working on their “secret” blanks and so busy selling them to other members that they are reluctant to help another pen maker out when they try to make one themselves.  Have we stopped being a band of kindred souls with common goals and interests sharing thoughts and ideas, seeing each other as perspective customers instead?



I was reading over this again and thought of something else.  Most of the requests for help that I have seen here of late have been just asking "How did you do that?" or "Care to tell us how to do that?" instead of "I've been working on this for a week and can't figure this part of it out or that part of it out."  If someone is stumped, that means they've tried and need a little help to get over the hump.  I don't see anything wrong with not wanting to just divulge the entire process to someone who hasn't even taken at least a couple minutes to puzzle it out.  To me (and this may just be me but...) when there's no effort to at least try first, there's only fleeting interest.  Why should any of the grizzled veterans of this forum waste their time just to satisfy some momentary curiosity?  If someone is really wanting to learn and better their skills, they're going to be willing to give it an effort.  Time can be in short supply, I understand that, but at least use the time we do have to learn by doing.

Part of it might be a money issue.  I can understand someone not wanting to buy the equipment to cast worthless wood blanks with Alumilite and then waste the first half gallon or so trying to figure it all out on their own.  We all don't have that kind of money to throw at this hobby.  However, the only way we're going to actually learn how to do it is to...um...DO IT!!!


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## rjwolfe3 (Jun 25, 2009)

Keep in mind that just because someone asks, how did you do that, it may just be a rhetorical question. Sort of asking out loud without really wanting an answer. I have done that myself.


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## HawksFeather (Jun 25, 2009)

Most of my questions have been in the Finish threads and I have gotten helpful replies.  I guess I know enough not to request the "secret" formula for anyone's success.  If they want to share it they will and if they do it won't be a "secret" formula any longer.  That being said, I know that there are people "out there" that will request the "secret" formula and don't see any reason that they should not be given it - after all, it looks great and they deserve to have it without any work or time invested.  That just isn't me. 

Being a newbie to the pen making arena I really don't know enough to help many of the questions asked.  At the same time if it is a topic that I know a little about I will try to help.  What bothers me more is when a person posts that they would like to know about the best way to use a __________ (fill in the blank) type of finish and someone posts that you shouldn't be using "that" type of finish and this is the one that you should use - followed by what they like.  I don't have a problem if they give the person the answer on how to use _______ as a finish and then state the problems that they have with that finish (doesn't wear well, tends to chip, etc.) but try to answer the question.  

It is nice to have active members, but who decides what active is?  Is it a person like me, who has been a member for almost four years and has 85 posts - mostly posted in Finish and Other Things We Make or should it be restricted to active Pen Makers?  Do you remain active by logging in or by participating?   There will always be lurkers in any forum that has the reputation that IAP does.  Not everyone likes to post, but they like to learn.  If you require a certain number of posts to remain active expect to read things like "looks good" and "nice pen" each count but outside of stroking an ego, don't really mean much and probably should not "count".  It also becomes a nightmare for the administration and moderators of the forum who will be spending all of their time reviewing quality of content to see if the post would qualify or not.

Just my thoughts,

Jerry


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## jyreene (Jun 25, 2009)

I have been given a lot of help on this site.  I still have several different techniques to try out I just have to find the time since I still don't have my own shop yet and won't for another 6 months.  The few problems I have encountered I do ask for help if I can't see a way around it or if it's a particularly expensive blank.   Of course I haven't been using this forum for years so you could be right.  I do kind of agree with Hank Lee and skiprat (our resident dumpster diver) that certain things should be reserved for members but I also disagree on some aspects because it is the helpful advice I found on here when I got started that had me convinced to sign up.  So while advanced techniques and advice should be for active members the everyday and basics should still be available.  Just my 2 bits worth.


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## wolftat (Jun 25, 2009)

babyblues said:


> I was reading over this again and thought of something else. Most of the requests for help that I have seen here of late have been just asking "How did you do that?" or "Care to tell us how to do that?" instead of "I've been working on this for a week and can't figure this part of it out or that part of it out." If someone is stumped, that means they've tried and need a little help to get over the hump. I don't see anything wrong with not wanting to just divulge the entire process to someone who hasn't even taken at least a couple minutes to puzzle it out. To me (and this may just be me but...) when there's no effort to at least try first, there's only fleeting interest. Why should any of the grizzled veterans of this forum waste their time just to satisfy some momentary curiosity? If someone is really wanting to learn and better their skills, they're going to be willing to give it an effort. Time can be in short supply, I understand that, but at least use the time we do have to learn by doing.
> 
> Part of it might be a money issue. I can understand someone not wanting to buy the equipment to cast worthless wood blanks with Alumilite and then waste the first half gallon or so trying to figure it all out on their own. We all don't have that kind of money to throw at this hobby. However, the only way we're going to actually learn how to do it is to...um...DO IT!!!


 I could not agree more.


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## wolftat (Jun 25, 2009)

jyreene said:


> I have been given a lot of help on this site. I still have several different techniques to try out I just have to find the time since I still don't have my own shop yet and won't for another 6 months. The few problems I have encountered I do ask for help if I can't see a way around it or if it's a particularly expensive blank. Of course I haven't been using this forum for years so you could be right. I do kind of agree with Hank Lee and skiprat (our resident dumpster diver) that certain things should be reserved for members but I also disagree on some aspects because it is the helpful advice I found on here when I got started that had me convinced to sign up. So while advanced techniques and advice should be for active members the everyday and basics should still be available. Just my 2 bits worth.


 That makes sense, I don't want the whole forum closed, it would keep everybody away. I would like to see an area where we can post an idea that only active members acan see and voice an opinion on. I know this would exclude some very good people that have some great ideas to share, but in due time, they will be in that section sharing. Patience and deication is what should get members into the area, maybe it is an area that should be earned. 

Now that I have read this over, I realize that we already have this area in the forum. And I am planning to use it for this purpose.


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## DurocShark (Jun 25, 2009)

wolftat said:


> I realize that we already have this area in the forum. And I am planning to use it for this purpose.




We do?


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## HSTurning (Jun 25, 2009)

Ok I'm in. Here is my take.

Hi I'm Matt and I was a lurker.:biggrin:
I found the site sometime in late 2006 maybe early 2007 when I was looking into something having to do with flat work (no idea what or how this site came up).  At the time I never thought I would get into turning anything as a hobby.  I had done some turning in school but that was 15+ years ago.  I seen a demo at the local wood working store in March 2008 and walked out with a Jet mini.  I looked at this site and gained info on many aspects of turning these pens of are's into quality writing instraments.  I am not to that level yet.:worship:  I am an apprentice, I hope to be a craftsmen and will never consider myself a master. I only joined in December 2008 and if I remember correctly it was for the local chapter.  Otherwise I may still be lurking.  I like privacy so I dont join forum or sign up for most on-line sites.  Joining the site and becoming active has been a great experience and the helpfulness of are members is above that I see on any other site I lurk on.

360 HB
IMO
This is a time consuming blank that has taken a lot of time for the people that created it and have figured it out.  I think that it should be kept for the people that put in the time.  We have all seen many of the ideas of the members here end up being sold by the large companies.  From the HF transfer punch kit to the Circuit Board blanks).  These are easy to figure out and put into production.  The 360HB will end up on some of if not all the big company sites for sale in time but i say let the people that know how to do it make what they can on them before then.  If a big company wants it they only need to have a AutoCAD company or someone in house sit down and figure out a way that they can reproduce in mass quantities.  Let them pay for it and lets not just hand it to them.


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## wolftat (Jun 25, 2009)

DurocShark said:


> We do?


 Yes we do, it is an invitation only Social Group. I started one and I am the only member because I am feeling anti-social, and I am at work and can't concentrate on this stuff today.


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## DurocShark (Jun 25, 2009)

You soche!!!!


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## Ron in Drums PA (Jun 25, 2009)

Back in '05 and '06 I was pretty active. 

Today I'm mostly a lurker, but every now and then I throw in my 2¢.

Things haven't changed that much since back then. 

The one thing I do notice is the higher level of craftsmanship in turning pens.


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## HSTurning (Jun 25, 2009)

I always considered a lurker the people the just read/check a site and never join.  If i stopped posting and only read the pages I wouldn't consider myself a lurker.  But thats me.


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## chriselle (Jun 25, 2009)

I agree with what George is concerned about but just want to point out that I've noticed that some of the behavior George eludes to is from good ole boys from the good ole days.......just recalling a "whatever" moment a while back.  

Jokingly,  what info was there really to share in the good ole days??  ....How to get Shellawax to last longer than two weeks?


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## NewLondon88 (Jun 25, 2009)

chriselle said:


> ....How to get Shellawax to last longer than two weeks?



ooh ooh !!   I know this one! 

um ... don't touch it for three weeks? :tongue:


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## Ron in Drums PA (Jun 25, 2009)

chriselle said:


> Jokingly,  what info was there really to share in the good ole days??  ....How to get Shellawax to last longer than two weeks?



Lets See...
How to make the first Celtic cross pen.
Or the first pen with a wooden center band.
And even a wood finial.

Or my favorite "With enough CA you can turn even a fart"

That was cutting edge back in the day.
:biggrin:


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## Moosewatcher (Jun 28, 2009)

I'm afraid I'm really at a disadvantage here because I've never seen this Herringbone 360 that sparked all this posting.

If someone would kindly post a pic of their Herringbone 360, I'll reciprocate by posting a pic of my newest pen, when I get it done, the Flounder 180.

Ken


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## GouletPens (Jul 1, 2009)

It's not so much that the people on here have changed I think, but the content. As techniques have become more complicated and more time and money consuming, people are a bit less likely to just 'give it all away'. The 360 Herringbone is complicated so the ones who know it don't want to spill the beans unless someone has really put forth the effort to figure it out for themselves. I can appreciate that. But honestly, I saw the Herringbone 360 in a Faber-Castelle pen in last year's Paradise Pen catalogue so unless you came up with it before then you don't really have anything to protect because it's not 'your design'. I think we sometimes like to hoard information because of pride (I know I'm guilty of that sometimes, not as much as I used to be), but really it doesn't matter. We're a smart bunch of people here and if you post a pen, chances are in a week or two SOMEONE will figure out how you did it. DaVinci didn't make incredible paintings because he kept from other people how you mix paint and strentch canvas....he did something with it that no one else was CAPABLE of doing. I've seen some amazing pens on here that I couldn't do even if I knew exactly how. THAT is impressive to me, not something I see that no one is willing to share. Now it's different if your livelyhood depends on it, but if that's the case what the heck are you doing posting it on here in the first place? Keep it to yourself if you're not willing to share.


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## greggas (Jul 1, 2009)

I was hooked by the turning bug about a year and a half ago.  As I visit all of your sites, join associations and attend symposiums I have been thrilled by the openness and eagerness of those who have much , much more experience in this to share their knowledge.  Coming from the Architecture / Building industry after 25 years this willingness to share is a complete 180 from what I am used to.  The amount of info shared by all of you is tremendous and I suspect that as the popularity of turning has grown ( which I suspect is zooming) perhaps the influx of folks from other walks of life are just not as open as the early turners, or perhaps just do not have enough experience yet and are staying quiet until they have something to add.  

My limited experience in the turning world has taught me to be more giving of my experience and wisdom to others that I encounter....keep up the good work!


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## leehljp (Jul 1, 2009)

greggas said:


> . . .
> My limited experience in the turning world has taught me to be more giving of my experience and wisdom to others that I encounter....keep up the good work!



Welcome Greg! I noticed this was your first post!


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## greggas (Jul 1, 2009)

Thanks Hank;

Nice wood in Japan.  I recall seeing photos of a basement shop with a band saw called Big Blue in Japan...was that you?


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## TellicoTurning (Jul 1, 2009)

I think things are changing here... we are an evolving society and this mini-society is also evolving... I don't see any negative changes, but as membership waxes and wanes, I see new people with new ideas coming on board, older members either leaving or posting less... I still see the sharing of lots of information here and enjoy coming in to look and read the posts.  It's still one of my favorite two forums that I visit every day.


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## leehljp (Jul 1, 2009)

greggas said:


> Thanks Hank;
> 
> Nice wood in Japan.  I recall seeing photos of a basement shop with a band saw called Big Blue in Japan...was that you?



That wasn't me. I wouldn't mind if it was though! My shop is barely big enough to turn around good. :wink:


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## wolftat (Jul 1, 2009)

Moosewatcher said:


> I'm afraid I'm really at a disadvantage here because I've never seen this Herringbone 360 that sparked all this posting.
> 
> If someone would kindly post a pic of their Herringbone 360, I'll reciprocate by posting a pic of my newest pen, when I get it done, the Flounder 180.
> 
> Ken


 Here is a link to one I posted recently.
http://www.penturners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=48015


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## TribalRR (Jul 3, 2009)

GouletPens said:


> ... Keep it to yourself if you're not willing to share.



Guess that makes since, okay...


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## yarydoc (Jul 3, 2009)

Hello, my name is Ray and I am a lurker. I joined IAP June 9th  2008 and this will be post # 33. I have answered any question that I thought I could be of help with and all of my questions have been answered. I visit  IAP daily to see what great things everyone has made and the problems that we all seem to have. This is a hobby for me. I will never make the money back on the tools and supplies that I am buying or have already bought. I am not trying to steal your ideas to make money off of your work. I am only trying to get better at my pen turning. When I joined I missed the part where I had to be an active member so would you please send me the link to this. If my lurking is a problem I ask that some of the ones in charge to let me know and I will lurk no more.

                                                           Thanks,   Ray


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## arioux (Jul 3, 2009)

The following paragraph is taken from a news letter i receive on a regular basis.  Those that receive it will recognize where it is from. They make a little publicity about our site.  By reading it, i think they really point out what the perception of this forum is and what brings people in. I specially like the last sentence.     



  You have seen some very impressive pens out there and have wondered where folks get such great ideas from. Check out the International Association of Pen Turners, otherwise known as  the IAP. The link to this wonderful pen turning forum is http://www.penturners.org. It will take you a few minutes of your time and a very little bit of inconsequential personal information such as your name and the general whereabouts of where  you live, and you can have access to a virtual treasure trove of pen turning information.

     The forum has been around for about five years and has almost 8000 members worldwide and the membership is growing all the time. There are old time turners and beginners alike. Best of all, every opinion counts and everyone wants to hear what you have to say. You really don't have to input anything, some folks, like me,  just like to sit back and listen (read), look at pictures of some very impressive work, and just take things in. 

     If you ever have a question about anything related to pen turning, just ask. I can guarantee you that you will get back more information than you could ever possibly imagine in a very short time. I think there are folks perched out there just waiting for someone to ask a question.  If it is proprietary information which you seek then you may be out of luck and responded to with something like "boy would we all like to know that". Believe it or not, there are some folks out there who think that the knowledge of how to turn a basic pen is proprietary information to them. Luckily though there are not so many of those folks on the IAP.


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## ldb2000 (Jul 3, 2009)

yarydoc said:


> Hello, my name is Ray and I am a lurker. I joined IAP June 9th 2008 and this will be post # 33. I have answered any question that I thought I could be of help with and all of my questions have been answered. I visit IAP daily to see what great things everyone has made and the problems that we all seem to have. This is a hobby for me. I will never make the money back on the tools and supplies that I am buying or have already bought. I am not trying to steal your ideas to make money off of your work. I am only trying to get better at my pen turning. When I joined I missed the part where I had to be an active member so would you please send me the link to this. If my lurking is a problem I ask that some of the ones in charge to let me know and I will lurk no more.
> 
> Thanks, Ray


 
Ray , I think you may have gotten a wrong impression of us . We have no problem with you or anyone else who lurks out there . We would love for all the lurkers to join in the fun but it is in no way mandatory . We all have been lurkers around here at one point or another but most of us finally joined in . If you wish to lurk then by all means please continue , it's your loss . This place is more then just a forum to allot of us , it's an extended family , albeit a sometimes dysfunctional family but when you consider the diversity that is to be expected . By not joining in you are depriving yourself of the friendships that we have come to enjoy here . If we were really worried that you would steal our ideas and sell them the forum would not be posting the information in the first place . Getting the secrets that we are all hiding is very hard , all you have to do is ask . While you may not get a tutorial about how to make a HB360 blank , if you make an attempt at doing it yourself and get stuck on a problem all you have to do is ask Neil and I know he would be more then willing to help you , but you have to be willing to at least try to figure it out for yourself first . All I know for sure is that you won't get any help if all you do is lurk and never join in .


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## ronhampton (Jul 3, 2009)

i think that i've pretty much figured the 360 out! i made one this week. i need to work on accuracy as it is pretty sloppy,but,i'm getting there!:biggrin:---ron---


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## greeneyedblackcat (Jul 3, 2009)

As to the sharing thing, I share everything EXCEPT my Super Secret July "casing contest" entry pen :biggrin:


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## Rollerbob (Jul 3, 2009)

greeneyedblackcat said:


> As to the sharing thing, I share everything EXCEPT my Super Secret July "casing contest" entry pen :biggrin:


 And just when is that going to happen?


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## greeneyedblackcat (Jul 4, 2009)

Rollerbob said:


> And just when is that going to happen?


LOL   Bob, If I had to guess I would say you may see it sometime between now and the 31st :biggrin:  I will share it when it becomes a reality . :cat:


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## MesquiteMan (Jul 4, 2009)

yarydoc said:


> If my lurking is a problem I ask that some of the ones in charge to let me know and I will lurk no more.
> 
> Thanks, Ray


 
You are more than welcome to lurk here at IAP all you want.  We would love to have your active participation but it is certainly not mandatory.

Curtis O. Seebeck
IAP Head Moderator


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## rjwolfe3 (Jul 4, 2009)

Maybe I am confused on the definition of a lurker. I always assumed that once you started making posts you could no longer be considered a lurker but maybe I am wrong. To me a "lurker" is someone on the outside looking in. They are someone who doesn't post at all. Can someone clarify this?


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## GouletPens (Jul 8, 2009)

rjwolfe3 said:


> Maybe I am confused on the definition of a lurker. I always assumed that once you started making posts you could no longer be considered a lurker but maybe I am wrong. To me a "lurker" is someone on the outside looking in. They are someone who doesn't post at all. Can someone clarify this?


I'd agree with this.....if you post, you're a member. You're a lurker if you just read the posts but don't have an account or anything. I do that for several auto repair sites when I have a problem with my car, because I only need to know a specific detail about that one problem, but that's kinda different than IAP. I have no problem with lurkers, but I would suggest they become more involved b/c I've learned so much more since I've been an active poster than I think I ever would have lurking. Once you have some 'credibility' with members, you can get your questions answered very quickly and get some really great advice. You also learn who's blowing smoke and who's legit (not that we have any smoke-blowers here, eh?:wink.


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## NewLondon88 (Jul 8, 2009)

why .. whatever do you mean?


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## wudnhed (Jul 9, 2009)

Originally Posted by *Texatdurango* 

 
Seems like the good ole days are gone on the forum. While some have always been tight lipped about sharing ideas, many have not and two years ago if someone posted about being stumped on a particular design several would post and help a fellow member out. Now it seems like so many are working on their “secret” blanks and so busy selling them to other members that they are reluctant to help another pen maker out when they try to make one themselves. Have we stopped being a band of kindred souls with common goals and interests sharing thoughts and ideas, seeing each other as perspective customers instead?




jhs494 said:


> I could not agree more.



It could also be a little competition.  Since the forum has grown so much and there are alot more people making pens I'm sure some feel they need a little "edge" so their pens are more unique.  In this era of internet shopping and websites it's easy to buy from other cities and countries so I can understand that person's protectiveness of their design.  I can also understand wanting to know how it's done too.


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## jleiwig (Jul 9, 2009)

I think the main point that some are trying to get across is that they are not going to give a difficult design that may have taken weeks to get just right like the herringbone to someone with 3 posts who hasn't even attempted it.

And I have seen some people come in with their 3rd or 4th post and ask for tutorials or instructions on how to do something.  I just saw it a minute ago in a pendant thread.  The methods for doing pendants has been posted a billion times, but this person didn't want to take the time to search it out, instead wanted it handed to him on a platter in the form of a tutorial.  

Really if you think back in the day a lot of people here got so pissed at Eagle because he would only drop crumbs around and you had to find the path they made yourself. 

I know a couple of forums we were on together he got kicked off of for his attitude.  Most didn't realize that he wasn't trying to be superior, only trying to get you to step up to his level.  I know a few times he really chapped my hide with some of his posts until I sat back and thought about it.  It was really a backlash of the gotta have it know society.  No one wants to earn their way anymore, and that's a sad commentary on society in general. 

But anyway..I digress..I lurked from close to the beginning of this forum and the penshop forum to get a feel for the craft, but didn't join until a couple years ago when I decided I wanted to learn the craft.  Once I joined I didn't start actively posting until recently because I really felt that it was probably better to let someone else answer who had actually turned a pen.


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## Grizz (Jul 9, 2009)

Gee, if I know how to do something.  I'll share it.   I've done a how to with decals.  Which afterwards people have expanded on it.  I think its great.

After all, being part of a group like this is about sharing.... isn't it?


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## Texatdurango (Jul 9, 2009)

Grizz said:


> Gee, if I know how to do something. I'll share it. I've done a how to with decals. Which afterwards people have expanded on it. I think its great.
> 
> After all, being part of a group like this is about sharing.... isn't it?


Based on what I hear many saying, No it's not!

From what I see, it's all about sharing unless there is some inherant value to not sharing.


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## wolftat (Jul 9, 2009)

rjwolfe3 said:


> Maybe I am confused on the definition of a lurker. I always assumed that once you started making posts you could no longer be considered a lurker but maybe I am wrong. To me a "lurker" is someone on the outside looking in. They are someone who doesn't post at all. Can someone clarify this?


 I think some folks have confused the harmless lurker with the poacher. I have no problem with someone that is lurking, they are doing so for their own reason and it isn't hurting anyone. The poacher on the other hand is making our designs as their own and giving no credit to the designers. I think the main problem is the poacher is just here to capitlize off of others hard work.


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## GouletPens (Jul 17, 2009)

I was in Woodcraft tonight looking at the stars and stripes kits, puzzle kits, circuit board kits, corn cobs, etc. and I just thought about all the work that went into being the first to make them, and now they have been 'corporatized' with no public credit to the original creators. It's great we have artistic freedom and are willing to share with others to further the art, but it would be nice if those that create the truly unique and 'marketable' products were able to get a little credit for them. :befuddled:


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## Rifleman1776 (Jul 17, 2009)

GouletPens said:


> I was in Woodcraft tonight looking at the stars and stripes kits, puzzle kits, circuit board kits, corn cobs, etc. and I just thought about all the work that went into being the first to make them, and now they have been 'corporatized' with no public credit to the original creators. It's great we have artistic freedom and are willing to share with others to further the art, but it would be nice if those that create the truly unique and 'marketable' products were able to get a little credit for them. :befuddled:



He gets a check. In the world of business, that is plenty of 'credit'.
You don't see publication of high praise for the factories who manufacture the kits.

BTW: As to the original question in the title of this thread. I hope so.


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## wolftat (Jul 17, 2009)

Rifleman1776 said:


> He gets a check. In the world of business, that is plenty of 'credit'.
> You don't see publication of high praise for the factories who manufacture the kits.
> 
> BTW: As to the original question in the title of this thread. I hope so.


 I have actually been in communications with the inventor of one of the more popular pen designs that we use. We are able to buy these at Woodcraft, AS, and other places , but he isn't getting a check for them selling his design, he isn't getting any credit at all for it. That is just wrong no matter how you look at it. I know he is on this forum "lurking", and I think he has a legitimate reason to be upset.


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## DurocShark (Jul 17, 2009)

Can you share which design?


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## MesquiteMan (Jul 17, 2009)

I am sure he is talking about the circuit board pen.


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## DurocShark (Jul 17, 2009)

Oh, gotcha.

If there wasn't a patent, I doubt the companies could be charged with theft. Unfortunately. Sometimes I wish ethics could be legally enforced.


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## DCBluesman (Jul 17, 2009)

Texatdurango said:


> Have we stopped being a band of kindred souls with common goals and interests sharing thoughts and ideas, seeing each other as perspective customers instead?
> 
> So, am I overreacting to something that is of no consequence or does anyone else see this change in the forum?


 
No, it's not just you.  Yes, the forum has changed.  Yes, things are more mercenary.  No, not all of the change has been good...or bad.


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## MesquiteMan (Jul 17, 2009)

OK, for those who think things have changed for the worse, why don't you send me a PM and give us some ideas on what we should change to make it better.  Should we allow folks to post anything they want without any moderation?  Should we limit certain portions of the site to members only?

I do see some common areas in this thread that some think IAP has become too commercialized.  I tend to agree with this somewhat.  We have a lot of members whow do not participate at all on the forum other than to post in classifieds.  Should we place more restrictions on the use of the classifieds?

Just talking and saying things have gone downhill without providing some ideas for improvement is just plain old complaining!  Give me some ideas on making this place even better!


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## jkeithrussell (Jul 17, 2009)

I like the forum just the way it is.  I'm able to sort out which sellers to deal with (those who actively support the forum), and I assume that others can do the same.  The bantering and bickering all looks normal to me -- I have 3 young children at home!


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## jleiwig (Jul 17, 2009)

MesquiteMan said:


> Give me some ideas on making this place even better!


 
Other forums often make the vendors pay to sell things on the site.  That way it supports the site.  I have and still am confused by the different selling forums here on IAP.  Individual, business, most valued vendor.  I think it should just be individuals and businesses that pay to advertise here.  While not on the scale of Craft Supplies or PSI, some of our sellers make a good deal of sales from this site and it's only fair that they share a burden of some of the cost. Bigger businesses get a banner bar or some other form of advertisement for bigger contributions.  Some will say that will make the little guys stop selling their items, well tough.  

There used to be a guy from CSUSA that used to post on here a while back, he doesn't any more...why is that?  Berea, CSUSA,PSI, and all their resellers are our main source of pen kits.  This is the largest pen turning related forum on the internet, yet they have no presence here.  I have always found that strange.  I'm not saying they have to be bedfellows, but would it hurt to reach out to them?  

Some also put a post count limit on posts before you can sell something in the individual classifieds with the idea being that you will at least be a somewhat known commodity.  However, someone can have 500 posts here and still not be well known if all they post is NPGJ.  

Another thing is that I think that 70 some odd forums is just way too many.  I'm sure a ton of people are intimidated by it all.  A better organizational system would be good. 

For example you have the community area with all the forums and sub forums under that

Instead I think you should have the penturning forum with sub forums for finishing, casting & stabilization, advanced pen making...etc.  they should all fall under one heading instead of being a major forum themselves.  

Getting just the right breakout is hard, but I see posts all the time that don't belong where they are posted and I think it's because there are just too many simularities between some of the forums.  

I could probably go on, but it's Friday and my brain is toast and ready for some weekend refreshing.  :biggrin:


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## NewLondon88 (Jul 17, 2009)

jleiwig said:


> Other forums often make the vendors pay to sell things on the site.  That way it supports the site.  I have and still am confused by the different selling forums here on IAP.  Individual, business, most valued vendor.  I think it should just be individuals and businesses that pay to advertise here.



Um.. if they're not an individual or a business, who are they? 



jleiwig said:


> While not on the scale of Craft Supplies or PSI, some of our sellers make a good deal of sales from this site and it's only fair that they share a burden of some of the cost.



Do you have evidence that they don't share any of the burden?
I don't know either way.. But that sounds like some sort of indictment.



jleiwig said:


> Bigger businesses get a banner bar or some other form of advertisement for bigger contributions.  Some will say that will make the little guys stop selling their items, well tough.



I'll have to disagree with you most strongly, here.
The 'little guys' are us. You want the big stores to strangle the little guys?
Take that route, and pretty soon slimline kits will be $25 and you won't 
have any other options. The big guys can afford to strangle the little guys.
That's how they work. They can afford to lose money until their competition
is gone. They plan on it.. because once the competition is gone, there is
no 'check and balance' on pricing.. they dont' have to compete with 
anyone else.

Websites like this help to keep that playing field a bit more level.



jleiwig said:


> There used to be a guy from CSUSA that used to post on here a while back, he doesn't any more...why is that?  Berea, CSUSA,PSI, and all their resellers are our main source of pen kits.  This is the largest pen turning related forum on the internet, yet they have no presence here.  I have always found that strange.  I'm not saying they have to be bedfellows, but would it hurt to reach out to them?



If I were an employee of one of those companies and I posted here on 
my free time, I would NEVER admit that I worked for them. Some people
don't understand the difference between an employee of a company and
someone who is spending their leisure time reading and posting here.
Some people would try to force the employee (on their time off) to address
business issues using this forum instead of using the sales/customer support
avenues provided by the company.
I know that in the past, I have had to hide my own business affiliations
online for just this reason.

Come to think of it, how do we know that this isn't why those companies
no longer show themselves here?

Just some thoughts about your post while I wait for my PR to gel..


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## DurocShark (Jul 17, 2009)

I read it as, "Individuals, and businesses that pay..."


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## NewLondon88 (Jul 17, 2009)

DurocShark said:


> I read it as, "Individuals, and businesses that pay..."



Ah..  ok, I can see that now. :redface:


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## skiprat (Jul 17, 2009)

MesquiteMan said:


> OK, for those who think things have changed for the worse, why don't you send me a PM and give us some ideas on what we should change to make it better.
> I don't think anything is any worse than it has ever been before, perhaps a lot of adverts subtley inserted in non-classified ad threads. But that is no biggie if kept under control. Should we allow folks to post anything they want without any moderation?
> Absolutely not. In fact there was a post recently that was quickly removed either by a mod or by the member that should have got the member permanently banned
> Should we limit certain portions of the site to members only?
> ...



I don't think anyone could ever accuse me of not sharing either here or privately. But I really don't like that just anyone ( lurkers) can come here and read everything whether in posts or in the tutorials in the archives without any offer of thanks or participation. 
I have seen it written that some newbies don't post because they believe they have got nothing to offer. This is simply not true. There are dozens of things they could contribute, even if it was just letting us know when a particular vendor was having a special offer etc. Hell, they could just post the latest joke in CC to be part of the family.
Do you remember that case where some lady that rarely posted came in and said she needed loads of free stuff?? She gave a dodgy pic of some apparent damage to her house. She got loads of stuff from our members and I don't believe she has been seen since. This was the point where *I *changed, not the IAP. After this, I would just ignore questions like 'how do you do that?' from people that I never knew existed before. 

Ok, that was my tuppence worth:biggrin:


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## NewLondon88 (Jul 17, 2009)

skiprat said:


> I don't think anyone could ever accuse me of not sharing either here or privately.



Abso-bloody-lutely not.



skiprat said:


> Ok, that was my tuppence worth:biggrin:



Don't go throwing your fake money around here.. :tongue:


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## ericw95 (Jul 17, 2009)

I haven't been as active lately because I am going back to school pursuing 2 Masters degrees.  I have enjoyed being a part of the forum.  Thank you to those that have shared their experiences with us.  

I've always heard that what goes around comes around and I am sure the forum will do the same.

Eric


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## jleiwig (Jul 17, 2009)

NewLondon88 said:


> Um.. if they're not an individual or a business, who are they?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Well..I found nothing about them having to pay to be MVV.  Just that they are "invited"


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## snyiper (Sep 23, 2009)

I am guilty as I am a lurker, I have a great interest in pen making but have yet to turn my first one or even get everything I need. I lurk simply because I dont know enough to be helpful yet. I am gathering information so I can purchase the right stuff the first time. I have most of the tools needed to get started and even made a few jigs for pen turning thanks to the information here. This is simply a hobby for me I dont intend to do anything but make each pen as perfect as it can be one at a time. Im not sure how bad the pen bug will bite but with what I have read there is plenty to perfect before I get to more complicated patterns. I hope the Lurker still is welcome here as I feel it is better to be quiet and learn than to answer even one thing wrong. I thank everyone for all the advice and tips provided in these pages it has been a real asset to the novice turner like myself if one just takes the time to read.


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## wdcav1952 (Sep 23, 2009)

Glen,

Lurkers are certainly welcome here at the IAP.  It does help if you (as you just did) and others who prefer to merely read make an occasional post.  This shows that you wish to remain an active member.


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## ldb2000 (Sep 23, 2009)

snyiper said:


> I am guilty as I am a lurker, I have a great interest in pen making but have yet to turn my first one or even get everything I need. I lurk simply because I dont know enough to be helpful yet. I am gathering information so I can purchase the right stuff the first time. I have most of the tools needed to get started and even made a few jigs for pen turning thanks to the information here. This is simply a hobby for me I dont intend to do anything but make each pen as perfect as it can be one at a time. Im not sure how bad the pen bug will bite but with what I have read there is plenty to perfect before I get to more complicated patterns. I hope the Lurker still is welcome here as I feel it is better to be quiet and learn than to answer even one thing wrong. I thank everyone for all the advice and tips provided in these pages it has been a real asset to the novice turner like myself if one just takes the time to read.


 
I hear this one all the time here and couldn't disagree more with the statement that you have nothing to offer . Do you have any other hobbies ? do you have a job and skills related to that job ? we all have talents that could be used here even if it's just telling a joke once and awhile . I have a friend who is into the model train hobby and have learned things from him that can be applied to penmaking , and another friend that don't know which end of a slimline to write with but is a woodworker by trade and he can tell a type of wood by smell (lol) . 
All I'm trying to say is that everyone has real world experiences and some of that knowledge might be useful to someone here . You can lurk if you want but your knowledge might just help someone here . 
Don't be afraid to post just because you have never made a pen .
Even just say "Hi" , we don't bite , well ...... most of us don't :biggrin:


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## NewLondon88 (Sep 23, 2009)

snyiper said:


> I hope the Lurker still is welcome here as I feel it is better to be quiet and learn than to answer even one thing wrong.



I don't know that anyone ever learned anything by always being right.
This is fortunate for me, since I am learning so much! :biggrin: And don't let
that stop you from contributing.. there's often many ways to do things ,
and just by mentioning your way of trying something it might inspire someone
else to try something they didn't think of. Sometimes there's no right or
wrong, but even when there is .. it helps to bring it out in the open so that
it can be discussed. There's no shame in being wrong, either. If it were all
so 'black and white' all the time, it would all be a 'no-brainer', one manual
would be written, one pen would be produced and the whole matter would
be closed.

Then, we'd all have to get new hobbies.

Lurkers are always welcome..  I think the original lurker quote was about
the pirates who lurk, see a new idea, run off someplace else with it and
claim it as their own.. and then try to sell it back to us. That sucks..
but that doesn't mean lurkers aren't welcome. I'd bet that most of us
started out as lurkers here or somewhere else.


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## Rollerbob (Sep 23, 2009)

Glen, just looked at your bio, yup you belong here!!:wink:


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## LandfillLumber (Sep 23, 2009)

I think some of it has to do with the economy the way it is.Many of us are working twice as hard to make the same cash as two years ago.That's what it is with me busy,busy,busy,with my hands in a million things.I do try and help when i know hat I'm talking about,that is not that often when it comes to turning its self.Seems like it used to be more tight knit then we see today,maybe just a low in the swing of life.Victor


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## Bree (Sep 23, 2009)

As Heraclitus said... Everything flows and nothing stays fixed.  Everything flows and nothing abides.

Stick around... see what will happen next! :biggrin:


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## snyiper (Sep 23, 2009)

Well thank you all, Ill be as productive as I can I am sure Ill be all in it once I figure out what Im doing. I am a liscensed plumber by trade so I can help with stuff to do with pipe fittings and such. In fact I do have a members pressure pot lid here fixing it up for use. Ill try to post a pic of it assembled. this is the test fit and approval before I tape and dope it.


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