# bowl finish question



## triw51 (May 13, 2013)

I hope this is in the right forum if not please move

I was doing some demos this week-end.  I had some pens and peppermills out on the table.  I did some of the peppermills out of mulberry and one lady really like the look.  She wants me to make her some bowls out of matching wood.  She would like to use the bowls for soups.
My question is what finish will stand up to hot liquids or is there a finish that will?  I mentioned a resin finish but she did not like that.


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## BeSquare (May 13, 2013)

I would think that hot liquids with thinner woods (like on a bowl) would be a nightmare, that temperature change is bound to cause warping or cracking issues.


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## Marc (May 13, 2013)

I use Salad Bowl Finish.  In my experience, it takes a least 3 coats to really made it seal.  The third coat also makes the shine "pop."  Do not run these these through the dishwasher.  I can't say I know of any issue with hot soup, perhaps others can chime in about that.


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## Ed McDonnell (May 13, 2013)

The first thing you need to do is to research the toxicity of the wood you are planning on working with.  You wouldn't want anybody getting hallucinations and stomach upset (or worse) after eating soup out of one of your bowls.  

The next thing you should do is to make yourself the guinea pig before selling a wooden soup bowl.  Make one and use it daily for a couple of weeks to see how things hold up.  I'm guessing you may not be as eager to sell wooden soup bowls if you do this.

As far as finishes, you will want something that can be easily maintained by the bowl owner.  Salad bowl finish is super easy for a bowlmaker to apply.  Your bowl owner may not find it quite as easy to work with.  

You might try food grade mineral oil from the drugstore (or butcher block oil from the woodworking store).  Some turners will mix beeswax with the mineral oil to give a little more luster to the finish.  I don't think beeswax would stand up to hot soup though.  Anybody can renew a mineral oil finish on wood.

You don't have to use the same finish on both the interior and exterior, unless you think they will be regularly licking the exterior of the bowl.  :biggrin:

The main thing is to not sell something that is going to end up having you talking to lawyers on a regular basis.

Ed


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## triw51 (May 13, 2013)

parklandturner said:


> The first thing you need to do is to research the toxicity of the wood you are planning on working with. You wouldn't want anybody getting hallucinations and stomach upset (or worse) after eating soup out of one of your bowls.
> 
> Did research maple and fruits woods are safe.
> 
> Mainly what I was looking for is if anyone knows of a finish that will stand up to that type of usage.  I am in the research mode right now finding out if this is a possible project.


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## KenV (May 13, 2013)

Mulberry does not grow up here -- but remember some of those trees where my mothers folk are from in southern Missouri.  The berries are remembered as good to eat.  Did have a bit to turn several years back and memory is that it was similar to other fruit woods.

Sap and Green berries have a mild toxicity rating, and green peas have a similar rating.  (Do not eat a large quantity of them)

Most of our contemporary surface treatments are not what was used in days of yore when wood treen was commonly used for eats and drinks.  Salad Bowl is widely acknowledged as being a marketing ploy to sell varnish under a different name as once dry, all the varnish finishes are food safe.  

One technique used in the past was to boil the finished object in a oil/tallow to drive out the moisture and fill the cells/spaces with oil/tallow.   Vegetable oils would be used today instead of tallow or grease from animals.  Mineral oil can likewise be used in that manner.   I have used olive oil, but talk to your customer to assure that there are no obvious allergies around.  

The bowls can be used repeatedly, but need to be hand washed.  Life will be short in the dishwasher.


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## triw51 (May 13, 2013)

_One technique used in the past was to boil the finished object in a oil/tallow to drive out the moisture and fill the cells/spaces with oil/tallow. Vegetable oils would be used today instead of tallow or grease from animals. Mineral oil can likewise be used in that manner. I have used olive oil, but talk to your customer to assure that there are no obvious allergies around._

Ken would the olive or vegetable oil go rancid after a while?


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## Scruffy (May 13, 2013)

*I'm not sure this has anything to do with the ..*

original question.

If you recall in the 2006-2008 time frame, there was a rash of people, especially kids, getting sick and dieing from the effects of finishes used in toys and kick knacks that came from China and South America.  They were putting junk, everything from used oil to animal residue as filler in the finishes.

As a result, congress in 2009-2011 time frame passed a bunch of laws and required a lot of regulations be put in place on what could be used as a finish.  

This effected me semi directly, while I was part of a group that gave toys to kids at the time, we would have had to send the toys to be tested by government approved testing lab IF we used a finish on them. We were told that this even applied to giving toys or kick knacks to friends or relatives. So some opted to just stop making toys, others continued but delivered toys which were raw, sanded wood.  We could not even use shellac on them as a sanding aide.

The cost is very high to have them tested and the paper work out of sight. I don't remember all the required.

I don't know if it applies to things like bowls, or food containers.  But who knows these days.


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## David Keller (May 13, 2013)

I'd probably use something that is easy to repair/replenish.  Walnut oil and a mineral oil/beeswax blend are both really simple to apply.  I don't believe there is a film finish of any kind that will hold up to repeated use and washing, and they're difficult(if not impossible)to repair.  I've gifted a number of 'users' to family and friends, and I generally steer them toward a product like this:

Fine handcrafted solid wooden bowls, salad bowls, wooden cutting boards & utensils and a food safe wood preserver. - Home

I recommend the following schedule for conditioning wooden kitchen gear(cutting boards, utensils, bowls, etc)...  Apply finish every day for a week, once a week for a month, and then monthly thereafter.  For lightly used items, that's probably a bit much...  For heavier use, extra applications might be warranted.


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## lucky13 (May 13, 2013)

How about getting a clear glass bowl and glueing it to the inside of the wooden bowl? Kinda like the vase inserts for the wooden vases. And just tell her that the bowl is hand wash only and not to let it sit in water. That would be my recommendation.


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## mikespenturningz (May 13, 2013)

I think this guy also has a finish that you can use on a bowl.

doctorswoodshop


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## ssajn (May 13, 2013)

I would drop Mike Mahoney an email and see what he recommends. Besides being a bowl maker he uses wooden plates and bowls everyday at home.

You can contact Mike by email, phone.
Phone: (530) 620-7022
Email: mikemahoneybowls@gmail.com


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## KenV (May 13, 2013)

triw51 said:


> _One technique used in the past was to boil the finished object in a oil/tallow to drive out the moisture and fill the cells/spaces with oil/tallow. Vegetable oils would be used today instead of tallow or grease from animals. Mineral oil can likewise be used in that manner. I have used olive oil, but talk to your customer to assure that there are no obvious allergies around._
> 
> Ken would the olive or vegetable oil go rancid after a while?



If it did, it was not noticible.  All the surface oils get washed away pretty fast.

Wood spoons were another item boiled in oil and they showed no indications of rancid.

When I was living in Montana, there was a spoon maker "down the road"  (a long drive) who finifhed the spoons that way and had lots of repeat customers.


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## Wildman (May 14, 2013)

Think need to have a conversation with this lady, nothing will remove any finish you apply faster than hot liquids. I know some people enjoy cold soups too!  She has to understand over time wooden bowls need some extra care.  

Made a coffee scoop for wife, no finish after awhile acquired a black patina she could not wash away.  We no longer have that scoop.  We still have a saltshaker made for her that has no finish because of hot soapy water.  We never have used that saltshaker.  

Know the FDA list toxic chemicals safe for food contact, but have never seen a wood finishing product listed as food safe by FDA. 

After reading several MSDS for food safe finishes, normal film and oil-varnish blends do not use them for food contact items.  Just how safe are they after they dry?  See article below.

Another problem already mentioned earlier is getting people to reapply those commercial products as needed and difficulty.  

There is couple of high price mineral oil products enhanced with supplements on the market.  Of course, have Doctor’s & Mike Mahoney’s walnut oil products. 

Woodturning Finishes for Bowls and Platters - Walnut Oil and Wax Finishes

I have been using mineral oil (laxative) as a finish for salad mixing & eating bowls for years.  I always give people a bottle of mineral oil to reapply as needed.  Normally does not take more than few minutes to reapply & wipe dry.  Do not want to use industrial mineral oil or baby oil.

Food-Safe Finishes - Fine Woodworking Article


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## triw51 (May 14, 2013)

Thank you guys that is a lot of information to sift through.  If I get the job after explaining all of this to her I will keep you guys posted.


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