# End grain gluing?



## Warren White (Nov 7, 2015)

I am going to turn some Christmas ornaments, to be enhanced with the Woodturningz finial set.  (Thanks to Ryan for working with me on this!)

Is it possible to take two different woods, glue end grain to end grain, then drill and turn them successfully?  Any and all suggestions regarding what to use, etc. would be most appreciated.  I thought this might add to the interest of the ornament.

Thank you very much.  I LOVE THIS HOBBY (but more about that in a subsequent post)!

Warren


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## Skie_M (Nov 7, 2015)

You'll want to add more than your usual amount of glue, as end-grain will tend to soak it up pretty good ....  Or you could go with epoxy.


It might actually be the best idea to just drill them first (make sure you have a good end grain face to face contact), and THEN glue them onto the tube together and clamp them.  This is a fairly standard approach to simple segmenting.


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## jttheclockman (Nov 7, 2015)

Warren White said:


> I am going to turn some Christmas ornaments, to be enhanced with the Woodturningz finial set.  (Thanks to Ryan for working with me on this!)
> 
> Is it possible to take two different woods, glue end grain to end grain, then drill and turn them successfully?  Any and all suggestions regarding what to use, etc. would be most appreciated.  I thought this might add to the interest of the ornament.
> 
> ...




The red color will probably **** Ed Street off but who cares

You ask an open ended question with many possible answers. The reason I say this is because there is many ways of doing this. I will give a couple examples.

The biggest factor with end grain to end grain is the starvation of the joint with glue and you basically are glueing tips of fibers to each other as opposed to full length fibers with more gluing surface. It is like gluing toothpicks end to end. Not much gluing surface. To compensate for this you must strengthen the joint.

A couple ways of doing this.

A method called "Sizing" and with this method  you basically fill the voids of the endgrain with glue. You preglue both pieces with glue and let dry. Sand and make flat. You now have a flat surface and more glue surface. Now you glue your pieces together as normal. I have done this but what I do is not let the glue totally dry before gluing pieces. Works well enough for a non stress joint. Better than just applying glue and sticking ends together. The glue is sucked into the voids and starves the joint and that is why they fail easily. For this the type of glue is important. The best glue is polyurethane glues ( I use Franklin (HI-PUR) or Gorilla  glue.  Hate that stuff. Or epoxy. Yellow or white glue will not work well with sizing. It will be a good glue to fill the voids with but for sticking to itself it is a weak choice. 

Next method is to add dowels, tenons, decorative keyed joint, or make a scarf joint . I won't go into all these but they are pretty self explanatory. If someone needs further explanation I can add that. 

In your case, getting back to it, you mention you want to add finials to your ornaments. This is done easily and most efficiently by using tenons. I do it all the time with birdhouse ornaments and things of this nature. Turn the finial separately and add a tenon on the end. Drill a hole for tenon in the ornament and glue it in using whatever glue you choose because not you are avoiding end grain gluing. Simple    

One other note if I may add. To make your finials sit better on the bottom or top you need to relieve some material on the finial by back cutting from outside to in till you get to the tenon. Just a small amount so that the edge of the finial sits flat against the ornament. Makes for a more professional look. Or else you will have a space around the bottom of the finial and the ornament. You are basically gluing a flat surface to a round surface so this makes it look better. Sorry if you already are aware of this. Good luck and hope you post some photos.

Now if doing pen segmenting what I do is drill all pieces before I assemble the segmented blank. No stress on the joint when drilling. Not always possible but whenever possible that is what I do. Then any glue would work because there is no stress on the joint and if proper turning techniques are used and sharp tools it is a piece of cake.


You may be able to see how the finial sits flat on this ornament from this photo.







This is what I do with certain pens when gluing end grain and segmenting.










I have to edit this again because i reread your post and it looks like what you are looking to do is make the ornament itself from various woods and want to stack them . if this is the case then my first suggestion works. Sometimes it is hard to understand what people are asking because not enough info is provided. remember if you hollowing out the ornament you end up with even less glue surface. Careful when turning.


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## KenV (Nov 7, 2015)

Warren --  Went to Woodturningz and found the ornaments based on the 7 mm tube advertised.  

The reinforcement of a glued in brass tube will allow you more flexibility in glueups and provide a base stability.  

You may still be challenged by end grain glue ups being "chippy" and having small pieces  chip out while turning.   Think light cuts and sharp edges.

There are also variations with the use of longer or shorter tubes.   Acrylics can look especially seasonal.


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## jttheclockman (Nov 7, 2015)

I think my editing time ran out so just for another point you can do a true segmented ornament using segmenting techniques which truely show off the craftsmanship. here is a nice example. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=0nu4cHqiBGI


WOW After I read Ken's advice I see i was totally way off base in what I read into that OP post. Simple pen tube ornaments. Well I tried. Alot of wasted typing. Yes acrylic will add a lot of color no worry about endgrain then. Same rules apply for care of turning those as they do segmented pens. Read some of the posts in the segmenting forum. good luck.


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## Warren White (Nov 7, 2015)

*Clarification....*

I see I should have been more descriptive.  I have appreciated the responses thus far.  My apologies.

The finials are provided with the kit from Woodturningz.  I want to use two colors of wood in between the finials.  For example light and dark, and turn two spheres, one with each color. 

I understand that I should drill each one first, then glue (or epoxy) the tubes and separate two pieces at that time.

Hope this makes my question a bit more clear.


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## boatemp (Nov 7, 2015)

Just for my own inquisitveness, would stabilized wood glue together better than non-stabilized?  seems to me the end grain would be a non-issue with stabilized wood.


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## jttheclockman (Nov 7, 2015)

temptat said:


> Just for my own inquisitveness, would stabilized wood glue together better than non-stabilized?  seems to me the end grain would be a non-issue with stabilized wood.




Yes because the end grain will be filled. With the method I described as Sizing it is somewhat the same thing just that it is not as deep. 

But for something this small it is not necessary. I did not realize he was talking about a pen turning blank and use of tubes. Those you treat as you do any segmented pen and remember the blank is now supported by the tube when glued in so even less stress is put on the joints.


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## KenV (Nov 7, 2015)

Warren -- those kind of ornament are opportunities to be creative with cutoffs and scraps, and to be totally outrageous (at least compared to pens) with shapes, coves, beads, edges, etc.    Let it all loose and have some creative fun.

I have gotten to many more exotic forms, but those are still fun to do, and a great way to get kids into turning.


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## Warren White (Nov 8, 2015)

jttheclockman said:


> ....another point you can do a true segmented ornament using segmenting techniques which truely show off the craftsmanship. here is a nice example.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=0nu4cHqiBGI



That was an AMAZING video!  Thank you for sharing it.  Way beyond my woodworking capabilities, but not beyond my capacity to enjoy....


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## Skie_M (Nov 9, 2015)

Warren White said:


> jttheclockman said:
> 
> 
> > ....another point you can do a true segmented ornament using segmenting techniques which truely show off the craftsmanship. here is a nice example.
> ...



Just a quick comment on that video .... the person who did that should have sprinkled a small amount of SALT on the boards.  The salt won't hurt the glue joint, and would have helped hold the boards in place for clamping.  Just a nice little tip to make segmented glue work go MUCH more easily.


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## Warren White (Nov 11, 2015)

*Follow up (again)*



> Yes acrylic will add a lot of color no worry about endgrain then. Same rules apply for care of turning those as they do segmented pens. Read some of the posts in the segmenting forum. good luck.



Can I successfully glue two pieces of acrylic together with epoxy?  I assume that I will need to drill each separately, then glue the tube in and the two pieces at the same time.  Is that right?


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## jttheclockman (Nov 11, 2015)

Warren White said:


> > Yes acrylic will add a lot of color no worry about endgrain then. Same rules apply for care of turning those as they do segmented pens. Read some of the posts in the segmenting forum. good luck.
> 
> 
> Can I successfully glue two pieces of acrylic together with epoxy?  I assume that I will need to drill each separately, then glue the tube in and the two pieces at the same time.  Is that right?




That is correct. I do this all the time.


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