# Sharpening Help Needed.   With Pics.



## eliasbboy (Oct 17, 2012)

I'm so frustrated now I'm about ready to sell my lathe!  







I came home and went right out to sharpen my tools, something I've never really mastered.   I first tried the Work  Sharp 3000 and tool bar/Tormek combo and I was getting horrible results.  The tool bar is  level but as I marked both sides of my skew chisel with marker I could see I was  getting lopsided results.

I switched over to my THIRD grinder (I've had issues) with the wolverine jig  attached.   I've tried 3 separate grinders, and 6 different grinding  wheels.   Every wheel I use seems to have some wobble to it no matter what I  try.   

My skew is now completely fooked, and my roughing gouge looks  like Helen Kellen sharpened it- blind folded.

I'm a 38 year old father of two with a fairly successful family business  that I've helped run since I was 15.   I have an IQ in the 130's and I  watch the Discovery Channel.   How can the mystery of sharpening be so  elusive?   I could literally fold up shop right now.   

Here's pics of my sharpening debacle.   The tip of the chisel got too hot  as I got aggravated.   I left the burn marks like a Scarlet letter of  shame.  Feel free to mock.   I'm impervious to pain right now.






He is the evil grinder and jig that brought forth the curse.






The gouge is not straight across anymore.   It's almost like I did this on purpose.






Please look for my upcoming coffee table book "How Not to Sharpen".


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## eliasbboy (Oct 17, 2012)

The good news is I no longer fear hell.

Any and all suggestions would be greatly appreciated.   I think I'm going to order the Pen Pro in the mean time.


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## ericofpendom (Oct 17, 2012)

Firstly I would try and get a wider wheel for your grinder if possible, I find it makes it easier to keep the tool on the wheel and not slip off the sides.

Secondly, when sharpening the gouge don't roll the tool from side to side, backwards and forwards as this means you are passing the middle of the tool twice as often as each wing.  Start at one side and just roll the tool from one side to the other then lift it off the stone and repeat form that side again, ie.. right to left / lift off / right to left.

A wider wheel will help with sharpening the skew as you will have the whole blade in contact at all times.  Just let it rest on the wheel and cool often.

Hope this helps.

Eric...


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## Holz Mechaniker (Oct 17, 2012)

For starters your grinder is not a multi speed.  But that is the least of your issues.

I still have moments of as what you have presented.

My advice, get a Harbor Freight 4 sided diamond sharpen unit,  
There is nothing wrong sharpening by hand.


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## eliasbboy (Oct 17, 2012)

ericofpendom said:


> Firstly I would try and get a wider wheel for your grinder if possible, I find it makes it easier to keep the tool on the wheel and not slip off the sides.
> 
> Secondly, when sharpening the gouge don't roll the tool from side to side, backwards and forwards as this means you are passing the middle of the tool twice as often as each wing.  Start at one side and just roll the tool from one side to the other then lift it off the stone and repeat form that side again, ie.. right to left / lift off / right to left.
> 
> ...



I never even thought of _wider _a wheel.   And what you describe about rolling side to side is exactly what I was doing.   Oops.

Your help is greatly appreciated.


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## eliasbboy (Oct 17, 2012)

Holz Mechaniker said:


> For starters your grinder is not a multi speed. * But that is the least of your issues.*
> 
> I still have moments of as what you have presented.
> 
> ...



I could not agree more.  I sharpen my wood chisels by hand so I am not against that concept at all.


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## Ed McDonnell (Oct 17, 2012)

Additional good news!  It can only get better from here.

Check out this video from Alan Lacer.  It's a different skew shape than you were going for, but I really like his suggested tool profile.  In any case, you may pick up some good sharpening tips from the video.

Woodturning: Sharpening Lacer Skew - YouTube

Make sure you aren't using too fine a grit wheel, particularly for grinding / shaping.  That will quickly lead to overheating.


Ed


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## eliasbboy (Oct 17, 2012)

parklandturner said:


> Additional good news!  It can only get better from here.
> 
> Check out this video from Alan Lacer.  It's a different skew shape than you were going for, but I really like his suggested too profile.  In any case, you make pick up some good sharpening tips from the video.
> 
> ...



I'll watch it right now considering I won't be turning until I figure this out.:biggrin:


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## Haynie (Oct 17, 2012)

I sharpen my skew on a belt sander and finish by hand on progressively fine wetsand paper. Gouges are sharpened by disk sander.  If my grinder was a slow kind I would use it but since it is not I don't use it. 

I think sharpening is the hardest thing to learn about turning, but I have yet to make anything besides pens.


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## mikespenturningz (Oct 17, 2012)

That video was great thanks for posting it!


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## Andrew_K99 (Oct 17, 2012)

Oneway has videos showing you how to use their jig (here).  There are also a number on eBay showing how to use the wolverine jig.

AK


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## titan2 (Oct 17, 2012)

Haynie said:


> I sharpen my skew on a belt sander and finish by hand on progressively fine wetsand paper. Gouges are sharpened by disk sander. If my grinder was a slow kind I would use it but since it is not I don't use it.
> 
> I think sharpening is the hardest thing to learn about turning, but I have yet to make anything besides pens.


 
Are you wheels dressed?  Looks like there's a valley in the near one.  Make sure your wheels are level  ____  not --v--

Good luck.....


Barney


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## Ian57 (Oct 17, 2012)

Holz Mechaniker said:


> For starters your grinder is not a multi speed. But that is the least of your issues.
> 
> I still have moments of as what you have presented.
> 
> ...


Is this the sharpener from HF?
Diamond Hone Block - Four Sided Diamond Hone


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## alamocdc (Oct 17, 2012)

Michael, like Barney said, make sure your wheels are dressed flat. And the Oneway jig also needs to be centered directly under the wheel and plum (square). If it is and you place the end of the gouge handle in the center cradle with the angle of the gouge to wheel is right, the gouge can't help but sharpen square. The problem you are having with the skew is one of angle and that is related to it being oval. It is very easy to misalign the "flatness" of an oval skew to the wheel. DAMHIKT! Lay it up on the wheel with the grind flat to the wheel and the handle in the right or left cradle depending on the angle. Keep the handle in the cradle but carefully lift the skew off the wheel keeping it flat to the wheel. Turn it on, place the skew back down on the wheel and gently grind. Repeat the process for the other side. It can be a little tricky, but you'll get the hang of it.


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## glycerine (Oct 18, 2012)

Yeah, I think all wheels will have wobble, but they need to be "trued" with a diamond dresser.  Otherwise, you just need to get the angle right and lightly grind away...


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## Jgrden (Oct 18, 2012)

This issue has bugged me for years. I have a low speed grinder with a 60 and 120 grit wheel. I don't use a jig and do it by hand. Some times it works, and some times it does not.
A jig would be nice. I Need to get off my butt and make one.


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## chrisk (Oct 18, 2012)

1° On wider grinding wheels: they can't be fitted on all grinders. One has to check the axle's length.
2° Staying straight when grinding a gouge or skew: only with a jig after a lot of practise. 
3° On the heating issue: I love my tools and don't want to hurt them. For this reason, 12 years ago, I purchased a Tormek wet grinder. I had another grinder laying on a shelve for about 10 years after I tried it 2-3 times and was horrified... Now I use the latter more than my Tormek after I upgraded with a Tormek jig and a CBN (Cubic Boron Nitride) wheel.

The Tormek jig (a Tormek Bench Grinder Mount Set) here: Tormek Bench Grinder Mount Set | Hand Tools | Craft Supplies USA

The CBN wheel here: Grinding Wheels - Peter Child - - Cubic Boron Nitride wheel 150 x 20 v. extra fine

Anyway, every woodturner has a grinding-honing setup which works better for him. But IMHO only patience and practice (and some money... :biggrin: ) will help one find this setup.


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## eliasbboy (Oct 18, 2012)

Thanks guys.   I'm going to give a another go later today.  

Another stupid question tho.   On my wood chisels I sharpen them to a glass finish, even ending on a leather honing wheel.   On the Work Sharp with my turning tools I was starting out on 80 grit to correct the angle for the jig, then 120, 220, 400, and then 1000.   Those are the discs I have for the Work Sharp.

If I'm understanding what is necessary for turning, is that complete overkill?


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## airborne_r6 (Oct 18, 2012)

I am sure that there are other opinions but yes I think you are using too many grits.  I sharpen on an 80 grit wheel, and quickly hone with a fine diamond credit card type sharpener.  Also, if you are having problems getting the grind correct the more grits you use, the more times you are going to the wheel and thus compounding errors.  I would stick to the lowest grit for now, hone it with a stone if you want, and then later when you get it figured out you can add grits if feel it is necessary.  Again, just my opinion.


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## eliasbboy (Oct 18, 2012)

airborne_r6 said:


> I am sure that there are other opinions but yes I think you are using too many grits.  I sharpen on an 80 grit wheel, and quickly hone with a fine diamond credit card type sharpener.  Also, if you are having problems getting the grind correct the more grits you use, the more times you are going to the wheel and thus compounding errors.  I would stick to the lowest grit for now, hone it with a stone if you want, and then later when you get it figured out you can add grits if feel it is necessary.  Again, just my opinion.



That makes all the sense in the world.   I really should have asked these questions when I STARTED.   

I'm so happy to have found this site.   The help I've received just in the past week or so is tremendous.

I located a site with a nice tutorial in case there is someone else looking for help as well: 

*"A Guide to Sharpening and Honing Woodworking Tools"*


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## TerryDowning (Oct 18, 2012)

Way overkill.

It's all in the cutting inches for the edge. A mirror honed edge on a turning chisel will not last beyond a few minutes turning (possibly seconds depending on material). 

1' diameter stock = 3.14" diameter * 1000 RPM = 3140 inches per minute. or 261.67 feet per minute.  How long does it take to hand plane 261 feet?? and how many times will that hand plane be resharpened in that 261 feet of use??

Mirror finishes pay on hand tools, but not on lathe chisels. Sharp enough is all you need on a lathe chisel.


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## eliasbboy (Oct 18, 2012)

TerryDowning said:


> Way overkill.
> 
> It's all in the cutting inches for the edge. A mirror honed edge on a turning chisel will not last beyond a few minutes turning (possibly seconds depending on material).
> 
> ...



Got it.   I have 3 step of Japanese water stones I use for my chisels and I'm confident in my ability to hone those.   I should have no problem then using those to sharpen my skew, and then leave the grinding for touchups on my rounded turning tools then, correct?

I think part of my procrastination in sharpening was all the overkill.   I had to set aside time just to go through and sharpen all my tools at once, like periodic maintenance.   It's a bit of a chore getting the exact settings on the jigs to line up.   if I do it my hand I can (and should) be touching them up quickly and frequently as I turn.

I know I need a curved honing piece to remove the burr from inside my gouges after sharpening them.   I can feel that everytime.   When I purchase that I'll grab a flat piece and that should allow me to just do quick honing on the edge if I am understanding this.

I feel like a remedial woodworker asking for a "plus" or "minus" sign screwdriver.


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## keithkarl2007 (Oct 18, 2012)

A 60 or 80 grit is mostly used for shaping tools. 120 or 150 grit is the only grit you need to sharpen your tools. You might have seen how members sand the end of their blanks with an abrasive disc fixed to plywood and screwed on a faceplate or held in a chuck. If you make up one with a 150 grit abrasive disc you can use this for sharpening skews and other tools.


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## WHSKYrvr1 (Oct 18, 2012)

Nice thread.  I have the gouge problem too.  I like it when I learn things. Thanks for the info.


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## edstreet (Oct 18, 2012)

I see the problem.  Going to email you eliasbboy.


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## nativewooder (Oct 18, 2012)

Andrew K99 provides a link to the site for the Wolverine sharpening system  and it is a very good learning lesson.  It is almost imperative that the Wolverine be set up properly or you can spend the rest of your life going crazy and not have any sharp woodturning gouges or skews. DAMHIKT!!!


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## Jim Burr (Oct 18, 2012)

Just to add another wrinkle...I don't remember the Work Sharp being made for gouges. Great for flat stuff...skews, planer blades, flat chisels, but not gouges. From turning a lot of different things for a long time, I have a lot of gouges so I don't need to change grinds. What has worked from day one is a 8" Norton 100g on a Delta grinder. As long as you're using steel made in the last 15 years...heat from grinding won't affect it. I use that if I drop my gouge . For a razor edge that requires almost sanding I use a Grizzly 10" wet sharpener...basically a Tormek clone that uses Tormek jigs. Set up to do everything from gouges to planer blades was about $350. May not be for everybody, but it sure works for a lot of other turners.


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## eliasbboy (Oct 18, 2012)

Jim Burr said:


> Just to add another wrinkle...*I don't remember the Work Sharp being made for gouges.* Great for flat stuff...skews, planer blades, flat chisels, but not gouges. From turning a lot of different things for a long time, I have a lot of gouges so I don't need to change grinds. What has worked from day one is a 8" Norton 100g on a Delta grinder. As long as you're using steel made in the last 15 years...heat from grinding won't affect it. I use that if I drop my gouge . For a razor edge that requires almost sanding I use a Grizzly 10" wet sharpener...basically a Tormek clone that uses Tormek jigs. Set up to do everything from gouges to planer blades was about $350. May not be for everybody, but it sure works for a lot of other turners.



They have a toolbar attachment that allows for the use of Tormek jigs.   I have the multi jig that accepts gouges and skew chisels.   Here's a video that shows the exact setup I WAS using until I tried switching to the grinder.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AP3hMRFw1a0

Here's the tool bar:







Here's is a _*homemade *_bar, and the multi jig I was referring to.


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## SmokyB47 (Oct 18, 2012)

I attended a seminar yesterday at the Woodcraft store in Sandy Springs, Georgia. Clive Brooks( Sorby's production mgr.)  from England gave the demo which included the Sorby Pro tool sharpner which I had seen on the shelf at Woodcraft and thought that at $530 no way I would buy it. After seeing Clive demo it with several chisels I have changed my mind about it not being worth it. Alot of money but something you might want to look at.


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## paintspill (Oct 18, 2012)

i really have no idea if this is a case of too little too late, but i would hate to see such a great hobby ruined over this, i don't have a picture but would gladly send one. to be honest i didn't read all the posts because i'm simply too tired,   this is what i do and i find it works great. 
beside my lathe i have an electric motor, the motor is attached to the bench, on this motor i have a shaft and on that shaft i have a circle of 3/4" press board/mdf type wood, on that i have a piece of 600 grit sandpaper spray glued to it. when my tools get dull i run them on this for a few seconds. i noticed you said your gouge is not straight on the end. neither is mine, but its razor sharp. it is simple and works like a charm. and the proof is in the pictures. and again i will gladly show you my set up if your interested, but please pm me if you are.


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## edstreet (Oct 18, 2012)

SmokyB47 said:


> I attended a seminar yesterday at the Woodcraft store in Sandy Springs, Georgia. Clive Brooks( Sorby's production mgr.)  from England gave the demo which included the Sorby Pro tool sharpner which I had seen on the shelf at Woodcraft and thought that at $530 no way I would buy it. After seeing Clive demo it with several chisels I have changed my mind about it not being worth it. Alot of money but something you might want to look at.



I have over $3,000 in Japanese waterstones that I have bought over the years.  They are not cheap by no means and most are natural stones.  A good investment of any flavor/form is good if it is used properly.


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## eliasbboy (Oct 18, 2012)

paintspill said:


> i really have no idea if this is a case of too little too late, but i would hate to see such a great hobby ruined over this, i don't have a picture but would gladly send one. to be honest i didn't read all the posts because i'm simply too tired,   this is what i do and i find it works great.
> beside my lathe i have an electric motor, the motor is attached to the bench, on this motor i have a shaft and on that shaft i have a circle of 3/4" press board/mdf type wood, on that i have a piece of 600 grit sandpaper spray glued to it. when my tools get dull i run them on this for a few seconds. i noticed you said your gouge is not straight on the end. neither is mine, but its razor sharp. it is simple and works like a charm. and the proof is in the pictures. and again i will gladly show you my set up if your interested, but please pm me if you are.



That sounds so simple and with great results.   Thanks to you and everyone that's posted.   I took everything from this thread and did a fairly decent job (IMHO) of sharpening and turned a couple pens.

I can honestly say I don't think I've ever truly worked with sharp turning tools before because it was a completely different experience!  I'm going to keep practicing and will hopefully continue to get better.

Thanks again for all the help!


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## 76winger (Oct 18, 2012)

To get better results on a grinder, I bought a variable speed 8" unit and run it at the slowest speed it will go. This keeps it from getting the metal too hot as I make the passes (although you still have to move pretty fast). 

The other thing, like mentioned, a wider grinding wheel, but also a finer grit (mine is 100 grit) aluminum oxide (white in color) wheel instead of the stock gray ones which aren't made for sharpening fine lathe tools. 

Slower RPM down around 1200-1500 and the right wheel makes a world of difference.


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## edstreet (Oct 18, 2012)

Variable speed be damned.  Bucket of water is what you need, regardless of speed, USE IT.


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## azamiryou (Oct 18, 2012)

eliasbboy said:


> Another stupid question tho.   On my wood chisels I sharpen them to a glass finish, even ending on a leather honing wheel.... If I'm understanding what is necessary for turning, is that complete overkill?



My understanding is that basically, any grit can make for a sharp edge, but the edge will be uneven in proportion to the grit size, and this unevenness will carve grooves in the work. In other words, the finer you hone to, the finer the surface left by the cut. A polished blade will leave a polished surface behind... but we don't usually need that.



chrisk said:


> The CBN wheel here: Grinding Wheels - Peter Child - - Cubic Boron Nitride wheel 150 x 20 v. extra fine



That looks like an awesome wheel. I suppose it better be for $200! I'll have to remember it if I'm ever in a position to spend that kind of money on a grinding wheel.


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## ugrad (Oct 20, 2012)

eliasbboy said:


> He is the evil grinder and jig that brought forth the curse.



It looks like you are using coarse grindstone wheels, get the white wheels as a minimum.

regards
Peter


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## ghostrider (Oct 20, 2012)

eliasbboy said:


> paintspill said:
> 
> 
> > i really have no idea if this is a case of too little too late, but i would hate to see such a great hobby ruined over this, i don't have a picture but would gladly send one. to be honest i didn't read all the posts because i'm simply too tired,   this is what i do and i find it works great.
> ...


Maybe my experience will provide some insight.

I haven't even been able to get the stock  wheel off my grinder to put the fine one on yet, so I'm still hand sharpening. 

I like that I can just pull out my HF diamond hone and do a few quick passes to get the skew's edge up to par without even turning off the lathe. 

While I can absolutely understand wanting to gain the ability to sharpen on the grinder, if you already have the ability to sharpen by hand, then why not just go with that while you continue to work on your grinding. That way you'll at least have sharp tools to work with.


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## Holz Mechaniker (Oct 21, 2012)

Yeppers, that is what I use, on 200, I even use it for bowl gouge. 





Ian57 said:


> Holz Mechaniker said:
> 
> 
> > For starters your grinder is not a multi speed. But that is the least of your issues.
> ...


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## Holz Mechaniker (Oct 21, 2012)

yeah no mirror finish on the bevel is really needed. and your going to loose the edge soon as you touch to wood.  




eliasbboy said:


> Thanks guys.   I'm going to give a another go later today.
> 
> Another stupid question tho.   On my wood chisels I sharpen them to a glass finish, even ending on a leather honing wheel.   On the Work Sharp with my turning tools I was starting out on 80 grit to correct the angle for the jig, then 120, 220, 400, and then 1000.   Those are the discs I have for the Work Sharp.
> 
> If I'm understanding what is necessary for turning, is that complete overkill?


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