# Inclusivity



## mickr (Jan 12, 2010)

Because I have tried with humor to get across the point that women "feel" they are not included in this forum,and the gentle nudging is not working, I wish to use this conversation section to talk about it HEAD ON...I have talked on the phone & in person with 4 women & 1 man who used to frequent this forum...they no longer do so as they felt not included or badly for the women who do frequent it. They have told me of their experience, and I listened..As an example of language: we no longer use MANKIND..we use HUMANKIND...When women tell me GUYS is not inclusive ..I Listen... Do we not wish to make the membersghip of IAP grow? Do we not want new ideas? The PR Princess to make us gorgeous colored PR?  I admire the women whose avatars suggest they are women, or who sign their name at the bottom of their post..you are courageous in a medium that is dangerous for women..None of us can know to whom we are speaking on this forum...Let's start our posts with inclusivity  Hey Everyone..or hey forum friends..anything that makes us all feel as you do when you get good comments on your pens..feels great doesn't it?  To feel included as a penmaker? A new bowl turner?  Let's all grow and learn and become better turners through ideas from this forum


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## jleiwig (Jan 12, 2010)

Sorry, but if someone takes offense at being labeled in a group when someone says "guys" then I don't want them here. 

It's not insulting or derrogitory, it's just a generalization. To me your all androgenous.  

I don't care whether your male, female, both, or neither or for that matter, black white, purple or transparent...it has no effect one way or the other on this forum or the pen you can turn out.

Get over it and get back to turning pens or don't post on the forums like some have chosen. 

Just my opinion, and it's worth exactly what you've paid for it.


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## Wheaties (Jan 12, 2010)

I have to agree with Justin. I've always been annoyed by the "guys" generalization and those who feel it is "sexist". Come on! Really?!?


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## rjwolfe3 (Jan 12, 2010)

As I showed you with the definition in the other post, it is an all inclusive word that can be used for just men or for all sexes. It is not an incorrect usage to use guys to mean all sexes according to the dictionary. You seem to have a problem with the word and that is your right but I really don't think you have to right to correct other people since it is a correct usage. My wife uses guys all the time to refer to men and women. When I lived in New Jersey they said "you'se guys" all the time. I really doubt that it is driving people away from this forum because someone says guys. Personally I think it is stuff like this that drives people away. Just my opinion.


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## maxwell_smart007 (Jan 12, 2010)

Well, if it doesn't matter, let's say 'hey Girls' to everyone instead...equally "inclusive" and the same connotations...and equally insulting to the opposite sex.  

I know I wouldn't like that - and I really don't think that you two would either.  In the same way, girls don't like to be labelled as guys...

While it may not drive people away, it's a good thing to think about.  I'm going to personally try to avoid using 'guys', and use more gender-neutral forms...it never hurts to better one's English skills!


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## snyiper (Jan 12, 2010)

Yea Im there as well. Why do things have to change because someone got their feelings hurt? Guys is all inclusive Just like when I gather my guys and say listen up lady's no one takes offense. This is said in jest to get their attention. Now come on this is a turning forum and if you are not treated like some outcast or troll what is the issue? This is a great bunh of people and a family I am proud to be part of. (was that inclusive enough?) Why are we letting anyone change things if the language is too rough and the content unsatisfactory then I say look elsewhere. Yes I am all for expanding membership but again at what price? Ok no fat jokes or Im leaving....LOL


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## TellicoTurning (Jan 12, 2010)

I'm not sure I understand the problem either.. even back when we didn't worry about "political correctness" I remember the expression "you guys" to mean everyone in the group.   

I have three daughters... actually step daughters, but the point is all three of them use the express "you guys" to whomever they are talking to... this does not appear to be a local custom as one daughter lives and has lived her entire life in California, and the other two, one of whom lives and has lived her entire life in Illinois.  The third has lived in both Texas as a teen and Illinois as an adult.  Two of them are college educated professionals - one a teacher and one a supervisor in a very technical field - the third while not college educated is working as a law tech/secretary in a large law firm.  

I think my point is, listen to the conversation, not necessarily picking at the individual words used.... maybe why in the south we say "Y'all".....:biggrin::biggrin:


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## rjwolfe3 (Jan 12, 2010)

You have to go by the dictionary definition.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/guys

Girls does not have that usage in it.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/girls

Or gals.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/gals

I have 4 sisters and none of them take offense to the word and like I said my wife has no problem either. You can't make broad statements that this word is offensive to all women.


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## skywizzard (Jan 12, 2010)

I too agree with Justin,  perhaps I am just totally out of touch, but I often address my friends in mixed groups as "guys".  Apparently Merriam-Webster agrees....

Merriam -Webster online dictionary:

Main Entry: guy
Function: noun
Etymology: Guy Fawkes
Date: 1806
1 often capitalized : a grotesque effigy of Guy Fawkes traditionally displayed and burned in England on Guy Fawkes Day
2 chiefly British : a person of grotesque appearance
*3 a : man, fellow b : person —used in plural to refer to the members of a group regardless of sex <saw her and the rest of the guys>*
4 : individual, creature <the other dogs pale in companion to this little guy>

I think of the members here as persons who are penturners.  Nothing more or less.  It appears there are some who must be overly sensitive.  I am sorry, but it is your problem not the forums problem.  

As said above, just my opinion and it's worth what you paid.


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## jkeithrussell (Jan 12, 2010)

To me, if I heard a reasonable explanation from a female member as to why/how the occassional use of "you guys" in a post on this forum is offensive to them, I would certainly listen to it.  Each time that Mickr has posted his protest at the use of "you guys," at least one female member has posted to say that no offense is taken at the statement, but I've never seen a post from a female member complaining about it.  So I'm still puzzled about why this is being made such a big issue.  Mickr says female members have contacted him about it, and I take him at his word, but I've never seen it.


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## rjwolfe3 (Jan 12, 2010)

> So I'm still puzzled about why this is being made such a big issue.



Mountains out of molehills?


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## mbroberg (Jan 12, 2010)

LOL.....  I really believe that it would take a micrometer to measure the thickness of some people's skin.  How about this, everyone start their posts using whatever greeting they feel comfortable using.  Hey Guys, Hey Gals, Hey Humans, what difference does it make?  If someone opens a post and reads a greeting that doesn't sit well with them they can immediately close the post because it was probably written by a bad, insensitive, devisive dude, or dudette, or whomever.  Personally, I frequent this forum to learn about turning pens.  I rarely even notice how a post starts, I just get to the information that the poster is providing.  

Please read the rules in my signature line!


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## Daniel (Jan 12, 2010)

First I often have it in my mind when I write comments that this group is not made up of only Men. When I first started turning pens a member of the Yahoo group, and an original member as well as elder of the penturners guild. Made a short comment on the issue of Women being involved in what she called an traditional male activity. She pointed out that for a very long time she was concerned that her comments or would either be ignored or even attacked simply because she was female. Nothing of the like happened when she did finally muster up the courage and has for a very long time been recognized as one of the best of the best penturners. What I want to point out in this story is that the fear, reluctance and concern was hers. it was not grounded in fact or experience. Likewise, those that choose to not participate in this group do so for whatever reasons they have. Using some excuse like I was not included does not fly with me. No one ever invited me either. If they did not have that reason to avoid the group they would simply find some other reason. simple as that. they choose to not be a part of this group and that is the bottom line. If I am replying to a comment that was written by a man I will address it to a man. If others take offense that I did not reply neutrally on sex, that is their freedom to do. They also get to live in the results of that decision. I have never seen anyone be discouraged to participate for anything other than maybe straying a bit from popular opinion. I have never seen sex be an issue for how members are treated. In other words if there was an issue about what is going on in this group I would have concern. Concern for anything that is not going on does not. Saying that we do no include anyone is not at all true. it is obvious that just the opposite is true. Evidenced by the volume of participation that does go on. an individuals "Hang Ups" Are theirs to deal with in whatever manner they see fit. 
I do recognize that a womens opinion on matters of a shop could very well not be taken as seriously as those made by a man. If this is going on I am not aware of it and would trully appreciate being educated. I also see that a womens comments cocerning "Crafting" would be taken more seriously than a mans. traditionally at least in this country the shop is seen as the mans realm and crafting is womens work. that simply is the way it is. If you desire to get beyond it you have to be willing to deal with it, not avoid it not ask everyone else to do what you are not willing to do. but take the risk and take it on. sort of like this thread is doing. take a slap on the face or two but I bet lots of people are looking reading and thinking. who knows what changes it might make.


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## AceMrFixIt (Jan 12, 2010)

*guy*1  /gaɪ/ 

 Show Spelled Pronunciation [gahy] 

 Show IPA *noun, verb, guyed, guy⋅ing.* 

Use *guys* in a Sentence


See web results for *guys*


See images of *guys*

*–noun *1._Informal_. a man or boy; fellow: _He's a nice guy. _2._*Usually, guys. Informal. persons of either sex; people: **Could one of you guys help me with this?* _3._Chiefly British_ _Slang_. a grotesquely dressed person.4.(_often initial capital letter
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_) _British_. a grotesque effigy of Guy Fawkes that is paraded through the streets and burned on Guy Fawkes Day.

Nuf said, Guys......


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## dustmaker (Jan 12, 2010)

Gender neutral forum participants,
This kind of reminds me of the sexual harassment video we have to watch each year.  The video teaches that an incident occurs when someone is offended, regardless if the offense was intended.  While I understand the spirit of the policy, taken literally it means that if you find blue shirts offensive, I have to stop wearing blue shirts.  My point is, the use of the term "guys" is not intended to be offensive to our lady friends and it should be OK.  However, if significant participants are offended then we as a community should understand that and change.  It is a tough call to understand what "significant" is in a global community where so many cultural differences can create a wide range of offenses.  Before too long we are all constrained to the point that we all become gray sludge.  Honestly, if the term "guys" is offensive to some, there is probably not many forums on the planet where you will not be offended.
The real discussion point here, ought to be: how do we make the lady folks feel more welcome?  I really doubt that it is the mere usage of a single term that is driving them away!


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## dgscott (Jan 12, 2010)

How about "folks?"

One of my pet peeves is waitstaff (usually infinitely younger than me) who greet my wife and I in a restaurant with "Hi, guys." It may be just me, but I'm not your bud or your mate or your pal, I'm your customer. Of course, maybe if I changed my selection of eateries to more upscale joints....



As far as I'm concerned, if someone finds something offensive, I'll avoid it simply because I have enough enemies in the world and far too few friends. 

My $0.02.
Doug


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## jleiwig (Jan 12, 2010)

dgscott said:


> As far as I'm concerned, if someone finds something offensive, I'll avoid it simply because I have enough enemies in the world and far too few friends.
> 
> My $0.02.
> Doug


 
Maybe you could get a few of those friendly waiters to be your friends? :biggrin:


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## dgscott (Jan 12, 2010)

Hey -- I still tip 'em. 20%, just like everyone else.
D


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## leehljp (Jan 12, 2010)

I never heard the word "guys" used for women until I got to Japan (in a few international circles.) Since being here, (24+ years) I have heard "guys" so much by ladies in referring to both men and women, that I use it too for certain groups and don't feel strange doing it either. But I DO know in which group I must use it and which groups I better not!

If you called one of my three grown daughters "girls" they would let you know that they are grown, adults and mature. It is my youngest 26 year old living in Texas that pushes against being called "Girl" even once. :wink:

The fact is, there is NO way to not offend someone with some word that is generic, or inclusive or exclusive to others. Inclusive words are exclusive to some, and words exclusive to some are inclusive to others. The same words have different values to different cultures. Some people attach such strong values to words either negatively or positively that they can't operate without their specific word. But the rest of the world is not going to change for a few.

When people ask me about the prejudice that comes from being a foreigner, I respond with this: I choose to find my self worth in who I am, not what I am called or seen by others. My value to "me, myself and I", is in who I am, not what other people call me. Life is too short to let other people manipulate them by a word, intentional or unintentional. A person who wants and demands to be called and addressed in a certain way needs to find their self worth in who they are, not whether someone perceives them one way or another. No one can change the whole world's, or even a small group's language habits, but they can change how they personally react to it by where they place their value.

I live in a culture in which soooo many cultural values assigned to words are totally opposite of western culture values. I watch foreigners come over here and go bananas after a few months of living with cultural values that slight their ego on a daily basis.  I definitely am in the minority over here and I know it every morning when I look in the mirror. But I find my self worth in who I am and what I do, not what people sometimes call me. I have been called "gaijin" on numerous occasions and it is often an intentionally rude mannerism used by little kids to grownups. No problem!

PART II: Another real problem is that IAP is biased to the US population. It is  not intentional and is not meant to be that way. It is by the fact that the majority of members reside there. But I have noticed that our fellow Aussie, Canadian and Brits take it in stride and if their locations were not under their avatar, I would not know it. But This is going to happen when the majority is located in one place, and nothing can really be done about it. There are things Japanese here that I can participate in all the time, but I am never going to be Japanese, so I just enjoy who I am and the environment that I am living in! It is great even when I can't understand it! :biggrin:


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## TomW (Jan 12, 2010)

I guess I'm a *repeat offender*. I did a search on my posts and in 509 posts I have used the offending word 4 times.....that's once every 73.75 days....

But Eureka! I have used SWMBO twice (mis-spelled once) and LOML 12 TIMES! 

Does that make it worse, or better???

Tom


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## TXPhi67 (Jan 12, 2010)

*Confused*

How can anyone possibly be "excluded" from an online forum such as this?  Granted, people can be banned.  But, to my knowledge this has never been done here based on gender, ethnicity, religion, politics, etc.  The only banning I have ever seen was for behavior and only behavior.

So, again - how can someone not feel included?  No one here prevents another from making a comment.  Gender is only a factor if it is made known - and ultimately, that is a choice of poster - not the forum.  And I simply can not see how it would factor into a meaningful conversation re: pen turning technique, feedback, etc.

I'm sorry, whether it is a gender based or any other label based - saying someone one (or some group) is not "included" in this forum is simply not true.

In an earlier post, the point was made that an individual's reluctance to post and their feelings regarding the result of those posts was entirely based on their personal feelings and in now way were a reflection of reality.

Hmmm - is that the case here as well?  Instead of looking at the group as a whole here for blame, shouldn't the conversation start with the individual or individuals who are stating that they don't feel welcome and ask for specific examples of what is causing that?

If it is in fact the use of "guys" - get over it.  That is a personal bias that has no merit in terms of being derogatory by dictionary definition and well defined common usage (see multiple above posts).  On the other hand if there is a specific behavior by a specific individual that resulted in this feeling - that is why we have moderators (who do a dang find job btw) and should be addressed through them.

But in no way should the group be held accountable for something that is neither realistic nor provable.  In fact, it would not be more realistic for the group as a whole to be insulted by the accusation.

Rant done - back to work.


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## TellicoTurning (Jan 12, 2010)

Daniel said:


> Made a short comment on the issue of Women being involved in what she called an traditional male activity. She pointed out that for a very long time she was concerned that her comments or would either be ignored or even attacked simply because she was female.



Can't see why a woman would think her work would be less appreciated than a man's... knowledge has no gender.   I go to the Foothills Art Guild show in Knoxville almost every year.  While there are several booths there that have pen turners, by far and away, the best turners at that show are two women who have had a booth there every time I go...The other booths, all men, could definitely learn from these ladies.... they do some absolutely fabulous work... I always stop and admire their work, and try to pick up a tidbit of info from them.


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## mrcook4570 (Jan 12, 2010)

mickr said:


> I admire the women whose avatars suggest they are women, or who sign their name at the bottom of their post..you are courageous in a medium that is dangerous for women..



How exactly is this dangerous for women?


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## Daniel (Jan 12, 2010)

TellicoTurning said:


> Can't see why a woman would think her work would be less appreciated than a man's... knowledge has no gender.   I go to the Foothills Art Guild show in Knoxville almost every year.  While there are several booths there that have pen turners, by far and away, the best turners at that show are two women who have had a booth there every time I go...The other booths, all men, could definitely learn from these ladies.... they do some absolutely fabulous work... I always stop and admire their work, and try to pick up a tidbit of info from them.



Keep in mind that this was a few years before the IAP even came into existence. as far as I know there where no other active females even on the Yahoo group and so she was in a position of breaking fresh ice in her mind. sort of like a girl getting into the boys club house. It was not her work that she thought woudl not be appreciated. It was her opinion. as in what woudl a woman know about mans work. The point of my relating that story was to demonstrate that her concerns where generated by her own mind and that no such responce was ever displayed. in fact the group responded to her in exactly the opposite direction. you can be afraid and stay in your seat or you can stand up and prove yourself either right or wrong. In this case, gratefully, she was proven wrong. But imagine had she jsut chosen to continue to be afraid to comment because she might get shot down. what a tragedy it would have been for penturning.


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## glycerine (Jan 12, 2010)

Mickr, maybe you can chip in with a little more info.  Is it just the language used on this forum that makes these women feel left out?  It seems to me that the problem must be something other then the fact that people say "hey guys" and that you were just using that as one example.  Is there more to it?


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## Glenn McCullough (Jan 12, 2010)

I am the only man in a house of three three women, none take the term personally and use it themselves on occasion. I dont like the term "you guys" used by a waitstaff person (most are young women) while my family is ordering a meal, where it is used as an all inclusive term.  I feel it is minimizing my presence, and feel, out of respect,  it should be sir or ma'am. But I dont feel offended that it is a gender reference and I dont dismiss the restauraunt as an option when choosing to dine.


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## Daniel (Jan 12, 2010)

mrcook4570 said:


> How exactly is this dangerous for women?


Because when people realize they are women it opens them up to all sorts of harassing and even dangerous behavior.


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## TellicoTurning (Jan 12, 2010)

Daniel said:


> Keep in mind that this was a few years before the IAP even came into existence. as far as I know there where no other active females even on the Yahoo group and so she was in a position of breaking fresh ice in her mind. sort of like a girl getting into the boys club house. It was not her work that she thought woudl not be appreciated. It was her opinion. as in what woudl a woman know about mans work. The point of my relating that story was to demonstrate that her concerns where generated by her own mind and that no such responce was ever displayed. in fact the group responded to her in exactly the opposite direction. you can be afraid and stay in your seat or you can stand up and prove yourself either right or wrong. In this case, gratefully, she was proven wrong. But imagine had she jsut chosen to continue to be afraid to comment because she might get shot down. what a tragedy it would have been for penturning.



This also reminded me of back when I first made that statement about "knowledge having no gender"... I went to work for a company in Houston that had a woman station manager... When the station first opened the company had hired a man to run it, but he left for another opportunity and the company was left with the decision of hiring another man or letting Betty run the station... since it was a customs brokerage house and she was a very competent broker agent, they left her in charge... in '85 they hired me to do exports.. at Betty's urging.. and I worked under her direction.  When I was hired, Betty got a very large pay increase to match my salary.  She made some comment to that effect during a conversation we had early in our business relationship.  She was actually surprised to learn that she was underpaid for the position she held... in that conversation I told her I was also surprised because I knew her abilities and job skills and knew she was worth the new salary or more.. that's when I told her Knowledge has no gender..


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## rjwolfe3 (Jan 12, 2010)

> Because when people realize they are women it opens them up to all sorts of harassing and even dangerous behavior.



Really?! Are you serious?! I could understand how a forum and even the internet as a whole could be dangerous to children, but how in the heck is it dangerous to women. My wife has been a member here for a while now. She has never even received a negative comment towards her let alone something dangerous. Could you elaborate how a this forum could be dangerous to women???


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## Texatdurango (Jan 12, 2010)

*This is silly!  I think some are making way too much out of this as far as I'm concerned!*

Over new years I was visiting family in California, frequently surrounded by gorgeous young nieces and it was not uncommon for one of them to come running into a room room full of males and females, both young and old shouting... "Any of you *guys* want to order a pizza?"

No one thought anything of it, no one got offended, no one felt left out, no one tried to correct anyone, why..... because it's no big deal and certainly not worth arguing over..... except of course on an internet forum! 

Trust me, when someone came into the room and said..."Mom said to tell you *guys* that dinner is ready" EVERYONE headed for the table! :biggrin:


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## mbroberg (Jan 12, 2010)

*Come on Ladies*

I have yet to see one female post to this conversation, at least not one I can identify.  (Golly!  Does this mean that Mickr is right?)  I for one would like to hear from the female members of IAP.  What do you think?  Are men being insensitive by considering you one of the, "Guys"?  Does the language on the forum make you feel excluded or discourage you from contributing?  What do you *Gals* think?


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## Texatdurango (Jan 12, 2010)

mbroberg said:


> *I have yet to see one female post to this conversation,* at least not one I can identify. (Golly! Does this mean that Mickr is right?) I for one would like to hear from the female members of IAP. What do you think? Are men being insensitive by considering you one of the, "Guys"? Does the language on the forum make you feel excluded or discourage you from contributing? What do you *Gals* think?


 
That's because they are out in their shops having fun making pens while all the men are involved with this conversation!


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## TXPhi67 (Jan 12, 2010)

Daniel said:


> Keep in mind that this was a few years before the IAP even came into existence. as far as I know there where no other active females even on the Yahoo group and so she was in a position of breaking fresh ice in her mind.



I think I may know who you are talking about as I was a member of the Yahoo group well before IAP or the PenMaker's Guild was formed.  Whether or not it is the same person - the thing to keep in mind here is that when I first started turning, a Yahoo group member was instrumental in teaching me the basics and getting me to the point where I was successful more often then not.  I still have the first "custom" pen that this person taught me.  It was months before I had any clue to this person's gender and in fact was a complete non-issue when I found out that it was a "she" that had been helping me.

Again - whether or not someone feels "left out" in an online forum such as this (well maintained and populated mostly by mature adults) is really going to be a personal issue - not a group issue.

With out a doubt, I would not have enjoyed the hobby as much as I do nor be reasonably competent with out my early tutor's help.  But the fact that is was a woman helping me and not a man had absolutely zero impact on my requesting help or her willingness to help.  As a point of fact - she was the first to respond to my request for help and the most consistent in offering advice as well as constructive critique of my work.

This merely proves my point of an individual's choice on how they approach this forum - much less the rest of the world.


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## mbroberg (Jan 12, 2010)

Texatdurango said:


> That's because they are out in their shops having fun making pens while all the men are involved with this conversation!




:rotfl::biggrin:
True!


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## awolfe (Jan 12, 2010)

I myself do not have any problem at all with the term "guys". I use it all the timebecause it is quick and easy to type. I have always been and am very proud to be "one of the guys". I've never felt left out or been harassed on the forums. I love reading the posts and seeing all the beautiful items that have been turned. I just recently started turning again so haven't posted any pictures myself in forever, but I know when I post again that no one will treat my any differently. You guys are a great bunch of people and I'm glad to be here.:biggrin:


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## GaryMGg (Jan 12, 2010)

mbroberg said:


> LOL..... I really believe that it would take a micrometer to measure the thickness of some people's skin. How about this, everyone start their posts using whatever greeting they feel comfortable using. Hey Guys, Hey Gals, Hey Humans, what difference does it make? ...


 
I like it.

Ok you English pig-dogs...
:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:
:wink:


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## rjwolfe3 (Jan 12, 2010)

> Ok you English pig-dogs...


Now you just offended my dogs. Way to go man, now I have to listen to them whine all day long.

At least my pigs can't read, then I would really be in trouble.


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## mickr (Jan 12, 2010)

mrcook4570 said:


> How exactly is this dangerous for women?


  The internet is dangerous for women..most hide the fact..many use diffent names in phone books..anywhere predators roam, women have to be more careful


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## pensmyth (Jan 12, 2010)

GUYS, GUYS, GUYS! come on now. I had to take english and grammar in school. I  don't wish to revisit it here. This site is about woodworking, wood turning, pen making or really what ever hobby you enjoy and sharing it. We can share accomplishments, ask questions and give advise about hard earned lessons. Its fun and educational. If I have offended anyone with my use of the Queens English, oh well .... I don't recall seeing any posts about this being a sexist, female unfriendly site


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## rjwolfe3 (Jan 12, 2010)

> The internet is dangerous for women..most hide the fact..many use diffent names in phone books..anywhere predators roam, women have to be more careful



Wow where do you get your information from? Children are in danger of predators not women. Women are in no more danger then men in regards to the internet. My wife or my four sisters or my mom has never felt in danger from the internet. On the other hand I will not let my daughter on without supervision. I'm sorry but your post makes it seem like women can not take care of themselves and need a man to do it for them. Now that is a sexist attitude.


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## mickr (Jan 12, 2010)

Well, we certainly came out of the woodwork on this concept..I enjoyed hearing all the thoughts and responses..Culture, religion, gender, country...make us all think as we do..some here agreed that if a person is offended by a term, that it's easy to use another one(I would not tell a native american person that it's OK to call a football team the chiefs..they tell me it's offensive, I listen )  Now I'm gonna guess here..a few women may have responded to the post, but by their avatar you will never know..others who do tell you they are women may not comment as they don't give a rats ass or they do care, but don't want to upset the apple cart.  I truly do thank all of you for your thoughtful comments..It has been enlightening


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## mickr (Jan 12, 2010)

Texatdurango said:


> That's because they are out in their shops having fun making pens while all the men are involved with this conversation!


 GEORGE: loved this post..I was crappie flopping on the floor!!!!


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## darcisowers (Jan 12, 2010)

*I'm crashing your thread.*

I've never taken offense at any of the GUYS comments...  I'll happily state the obvious: woodworking is more popular with the MEN, but I'm happy to see lots of women on this forum, as I embark on this new hobby.  Up until recently, I've been the "assistant" while my husband does flatwork, but I really enjoy turning, and got him hooked too!  

just keep it clean, and overall "nice", and I won't have any problems with the forum. :biggrin:  I've received a LOT of help here, and don't see what the big deal is.  

Geesh ladies.

Darci


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## mickr (Jan 12, 2010)

glycerine said:


> Mickr, maybe you can chip in with a little more info. Is it just the language used on this forum that makes these women feel left out? It seems to me that the problem must be something other then the fact that people say "hey guys" and that you were just using that as one example. Is there more to it?


   Yes, thank you for asking & for your perceptiveness..I may have to ask the women who left the forum for anything personal that I could then relate..I think it would be safe to speak in generalities  The forum is obviously a space that has more men than women..that's probably a safe statement..Men's views of what is an appropriate shape, design, color..etc are freely shown and discussed and given the thumbs up..When a person deviates from that accepted norm (and it usually is a newbie woman who makes shapes and beads -how not to sound sexist here!!yikes) 10 people will comment..7 or so will say great first, or great pen...keep sending in the pics...one will say that the pen should be turned BtoB and the last two will say, like the color and they hate the shape, we here turn them BtoB  Here's what women tell me: those last 3 comments are hurtful and dismissive..they stuck their necks out and got shot down..And it's not just women..the fella I talked about who left the forum did an experiment..he came on once with a pen that had shape and lovely classic design and posted under a male avatar...he then posted another pen almost like it under a "womans" avatar  The responses were very telling..He got semi-positive responses, and the woman's avatar got many comments about the shape and how it could be better done...  My hope with this post was to have a discussion..to learn from one another and to help make this a welcoming and positive place for all people to feel comfortable about showing their work..


----------



## mickr (Jan 12, 2010)

darcisowers said:


> I've never taken offense at any of the GUYS comments... I'll happily state the obvious: woodworking is more popular with the MEN, but I'm happy to see lots of women on this forum, as I embark on this new hobby. Up until recently, I've been the "assistant" while my husband does flatwork, but I really enjoy turning, and got him hooked too!
> 
> just keep it clean, and overall "nice", and I won't have any problems with the forum. :biggrin: I've received a LOT of help here, and don't see what the big deal is.
> 
> ...


  I am happy you are happy with the forum and that you enjoy woodworking...live long & prosper!


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## dow (Jan 12, 2010)

At some point in this thread, someone mentioned a sexual harassment video that they had to watch each year.  We have a similar video at my job, and basically what it boils down to is, "If you say or do something, and someone dislikes it, then you are harassing that person, regardless of what your intentions are."  This is an extreme reaction to a society that thrives on litigation for wrongs, both real and imagined, in my opinion (and my wife works for a law firm, so I hear a lot of things like this).

Now, for my own opinions (which are worth about what you're paying for them. :biggrin:



You are not responsible for my interpretation of your words or actions, I am.
I am not responsible for your interpretation of my words or actions, you are.
I can not control what you say or think, and it would be a much sadder, much darker world, if I (or anyone) could.  I can only control my response, if any to what you say.
It is not my job to make your life "better" or to ride herd on your feelings and emotional state.  They're your feelings and emotions, ergo that's your job.
If a person is in such sad shape that they feel they must take offense at the words of others, or if they feel that their life is so empty that they must stir up trouble for other folks, either by being ugly or by gossip or by meddling, then they probably should seek professional help,
Vanilla ice cream is much better than chocolate ice cream.
Life is too short to eat bad food.
People who name their clothes are weird.
Everybody should look in the mirror at least once a day and think about how funny you'd look with antlers, a red nose, clown shoes and a scuba tank on.
(that last was in a plea for everyone to stop taking themselves so seriously, guys.)

There, I think that's all I have to say about that. :biggrin:


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## maxwell_smart007 (Jan 12, 2010)

Oh my, this is getting out of hand.  

I think the original poster was just saying that we should think about the connotations of our words, and strive to use the proper forms...There's nothing wrong with trying to use the proper form of address (but then again, I'm an English teacher) 

I tend to agree, being a firm proponent of proper English, that we should strive for better language skills.  I also agree that this has nothing to do with turning pens.  

Many of us use words that aren't correct - a'int comes to mind.  I don't use 'a'int', and I won't use 'guys' if I can help it, as it's not a proper form of address in mixed company.  Your choice of words is your own business...


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## jleiwig (Jan 12, 2010)

mickr said:


> Yes, thank you for asking & for your perceptiveness..I may have to ask the women who left the forum for anything personal that I could then relate..I think it would be safe to speak in generalities The forum is obviously a space that has more men than women..that's probably a safe statement..Men's views of what is an appropriate shape, design, color..etc are freely shown and discussed and given the thumbs up..When a person deviates from that accepted norm (and it usually is a newbie woman who makes shapes and beads -how not to sound sexist here!!yikes) 10 people will comment..7 or so will say great first, or great pen...keep sending in the pics...one will say that the pen should be turned BtoB and the last two will say, like the color and they hate the shape, we here turn them BtoB Here's what women tell me: those last 3 comments are hurtful and dismissive..they stuck their necks out and got shot down..And it's not just women..the fella I talked about who left the forum did an experiment..he came on once with a pen that had shape and lovely classic design and posted under a male avatar...he then posted another pen almost like it under a "womans" avatar The responses were very telling..He got semi-positive responses, and the woman's avatar got many comments about the shape and how it could be better done... My hope with this post was to have a discussion..to learn from one another and to help make this a welcoming and positive place for all people to feel comfortable about showing their work..


 
I'm going to have call his experiment BS, simply for the fact that to be valid it would have had to be the same pen.  I pay no attention to avatars period, and I will tell someone what I think of their pen regardless of who makes it.  I often don't look at who posted what, just comment on the pen itself.  I hit the new posts button and read almost every single one, based on the title, not the poster.  There are certain posters I won't read, but that's just because I consider it a waste of my time to read that specific individuals posts, but again it has nothing to do with gender.  Of all the issues this forum has, this has not and I hope to god will never be one.  

I'm really starting to get annoyed with this conversation overall.  It's not like we're here saying "Nice try honey, but why don't you go back into the kitchen and make some dinner while the men do the real woodwork"  

Out of all the woodworking forums I visit this one is the least sexist out of all of them.  Usually it's the guys cracking jokes on each other, but I've never ever seen one man be condecending to a woman(even their wives!)


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## GoodTurns (Jan 12, 2010)

jleiwig said:


> ... but I've never ever seen one man be condecending to a woman(even their wives!)



don't do this....really....DAMHIKT


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## dustmaker (Jan 12, 2010)

maxwell_smart007 said:


> Oh my, this is getting out of hand.
> 
> I think the original poster was just saying that we should think about the connotations of our words, and strive to use the proper forms...There's nothing wrong with trying to use the proper form of address (but then again, I'm an English teacher)
> 
> ...



Yeah, and while we are at it, what's up with the spelling and grammar?  Sometimes I have to read stuff twice to understand the meaning, especially when periods are dropped off.  But you know, I always push through it, figure it out, and move on...it's just not really that important in the big scheme of things!  I am much more interested in the discussion content than I am in how it is being communicated, or who it is being communicated by.


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## maxwell_smart007 (Jan 12, 2010)

You bet, Frank...

It's best to just focus on self-improvement, and not worry about what others are doing...at least online!


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## mrcook4570 (Jan 12, 2010)

mickr said:


> The internet is dangerous for women..most hide the fact..many use diffent names in phone books..anywhere predators roam, women have to be more careful



Wow, I guess I will have to keep my wife off the internet, not let her go out in public, or talk on the telephone.  Maybe I will just lock her in the closet so she is completely safe.


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## Pioneerpens (Jan 12, 2010)

As a female woodworker, i don't take offense to the term 'guys'.  I agree it is generic and all inclusive and my daughters answer to it as well.  I did form carpentry for many years and am now in Security.  Construction and woodworking are predominantly male fields, although the number of women participating is growing.  I think it gives both genders more commonality.  I personally think it is silly to knitpick over something not said as an intentional 'slam' to anyone.  I like coming to this forum and reading and learning more about the craft of woodturning generally and pen turning inparticular.  The friendships show through the posts and i enjoy being a member here.

Just my 2 cents worth 

Jennifer


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## Monty (Jan 12, 2010)

dow said:


> At some point in this thread, someone mentioned a sexual harassment video that they had to watch each year.  We have a similar video at my job, and basically what it boils down to is, "If you say or do something, and someone dislikes it, then you are harassing that person, regardless of what your intentions are."  This is an extreme reaction to a society that thrives on litigation for wrongs, both real and imagined, in my opinion (and my wife works for a law firm, so I hear a lot of things like this).
> 
> Now, for my own opinions (which are worth about what you're paying for them. :biggrin:
> 
> ...


I take offense on #6. Chocolate ice cream is better. :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:


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## darcisowers (Jan 12, 2010)

Monty said:


> I take offense on #6. Chocolate ice cream is better. :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:


 
I must agree with Monty.  :wink:


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## bgibb42 (Jan 12, 2010)

Monty said:


> I take offense on #6. Chocolate ice cream is better. :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:





darcisowers said:


> I must agree with Monty.  :wink:




You're both wrong...strawberry!:biggrin:


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## awolfe (Jan 12, 2010)

bgibb42 said:


> You're both wrong...strawberry!:biggrin:



No no no...Butter pecan.


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## jleiwig (Jan 12, 2010)

bgibb42 said:


> You're both wrong...strawberry!:biggrin:


 
Winner Winner Chicken Dinner!


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## Chief Hill (Jan 12, 2010)

50 posts on this topic???? All about the same thing. Over a few naggy ppl reading way too much into a "term"
You" guys" should just be happy and go turn some wood. Were all here for the same thing  turning.   Thats it.
 This isn't a  feminist activists group. 

We turn pens who cares what you are male, female, both.  Not quite sure yet?  Let me see your work that's why I am here.  Take the politics elsewhere and smile.


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## bitshird (Jan 12, 2010)

Texatdurango said:


> *This is silly!  I think some are making way too much out of this as far as I'm concerned!*


While I don't often agree with George, I think this is actually beyond silly, and bordering on ridiculous.
 And Stan perhaps you should hide the fact that your wife is also a  woman/lady/female, possibly get her a Burkah or Chadri, for her safety for the times you allow her out in public.     
 No never mind women are the only ones that wear them any way, so it wouldn't fool any threatening persons, better just lock her in a closet for her safety.
 I guess we should all begin our posts with Justin's Idea with something like Hello Humans, or how about Hi Guys and Dolls, Naw that's definitely getting into PC country.
 In my short two years here I've seen a lot of bandwidth taken up by some strange and useless stuff, but I think this just about hast to be the craziest waste of bandwidth I've encountered.      Just my humble opinion but then I'm a Guy!!!! I call my son in law and daughter guys, I call the girls and adult females my wife works with guys, I addressed all of my students including the 4 young females as guys . I guess I'm in trouble with the PC Police Guys!


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## Rmartin (Jan 12, 2010)

post removed.


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## dow (Jan 12, 2010)

Monty said:


> I take offense on #6. Chocolate ice cream is better. :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:



Well, you know what they say, ignorance is bliss. :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

Actually, my most favorite vanilla flavor is HEB 1905 Vanilla, with fresh ground nutmeg on it. YUMMMMMMMMM!!!!

Second is Poteet strawberry.  Man _(oops, I mean human)_, that stuff is so rich it'll put you in a higher tax bracket.  :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:


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## PR_Princess (Jan 12, 2010)

mbroberg said:


> I have yet to see one female post to this conversation, at least not one I can identify.  (Golly!  Does this mean that Mickr is right?)  I for one would like to hear from the female members of IAP.  What do you think?  Are men being insensitive by considering you one of the, "Guys"?  Does the language on the forum make you feel excluded or discourage you from contributing?  What do you *Gals* think?



Sorry Mick (OP) and Mike, while we may need to be more sensitive and reactive to certain things, I don't believe that this is one of them. 

Personally, I don't consider the term "guys" to be demeaning or an affront, but rather one of acceptance...And this is a group that I am pleased as punch to be accepted into!

Uh guys...I am accepted right? :redface:


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## mickr (Jan 12, 2010)

Thanks all for the over 60 responses..the silly, the thoughtful, the funny...I have taken the day to try to get them in order by category...Those who would say:  Ok it's just as easy to type Folks as Guys..I'll do that  Then the ones who said Guys is inclusive..and so on & so on  I am taking this to my college course this evening . The class is about language and how men , women, native, etc .,  hear it and how they perceive it...My contribution will be the responses from a penmaking forum from people who were able to answer over a 6 hr period...Thank you again for helping me with my continuing education in my old age. It has been eye opening and informative.


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## dow (Jan 12, 2010)

Cool!

Hmm... Does that make me the sample or the control?:biggrin:

Hey guys, who stole the ice cream scoop?


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## glycerine (Jan 12, 2010)

mickr said:


> Thanks all for the over 60 responses..the silly, the thoughtful, the funny...I have taken the day to try to get them in order by category...Those who would say: Ok it's just as easy to type Folks as Guys..I'll do that Then the ones who said Guys is inclusive..and so on & so on I am taking this to my college course this evening . The class is about language and how men , women, native, etc ., hear it and how they perceive it...My contribution will be the responses from a penmaking forum from people who were able to answer over a 6 hr period...Thank you again for helping me with my continuing education in my old age. It has been eye opening and informative.


 
So was any of this supposed to be taken seriously or was this just to get reactions for your class?  Now I'm uber confused!!!


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## glycerine (Jan 12, 2010)

PR_Princess said:


> Sorry Mick (OP) and Mike, while we may need to be more sensitive and reactive to certain things, I don't believe that this is one of them.
> 
> Personally, I don't consider the term "guys" to be demeaning or an affront, but rather one of acceptance...And this is a group that I am pleased as punch to be accepted into!
> 
> Uh guys...I am accepted right? :redface:


 
Well... only because you own an exotic website!!!! :smile-big:


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## ed4copies (Jan 12, 2010)

I do hope the guys in your class appreciate your efforts.

(Oh, and the ladies, girls, gals, women and dudettes, also!!)


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## jkeithrussell (Jan 12, 2010)

mickr said:


> Thanks all for the over 60 responses..the silly, the thoughtful, the funny...I have taken the day to try to get them in order by category...Those who would say: Ok it's just as easy to type Folks as Guys..I'll do that Then the ones who said Guys is inclusive..and so on & so on I am taking this to my college course this evening . The class is about language and how men , women, native, etc ., hear it and how they perceive it...My contribution will be the responses from a penmaking forum from people who were able to answer over a 6 hr period...Thank you again for helping me with my continuing education in my old age. It has been eye opening and informative.


 

I can help, somewhat.  There were 20 people who posted in decided disagreement with you -- including all three of the females who responded.  There were 4 who posted opinions that were neutral as far as I could tell.  There was either 1 or 2 who posted in general agreement with you -- one of them I couldn't tell for sure.  There were many who posted things that I could not interpret as pro/con.    

I can't help but scoff at the notion that this was an experiment for a class in light of the fact that you have made roughly the same post now four times as discussed in this thread which is where this all really started: http://www.penturners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=56371&page=2.  

I've been hassling you all day and will stop now.  

You guys have a good day!


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## greggas (Jan 12, 2010)

Was this serious or tongue in cheek?? I hope that over the top political correctness has not infected my favorite web site....life is too short to waste on such trivial matters.


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## TXPhi67 (Jan 12, 2010)

Since we all helped with the "experiment" and preparing for your college class, does that mean we get paid?

I'll take mine in blanks if so.  Preferably some sort of incredible burl.

Thanks,


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## Chief Hill (Jan 12, 2010)

Does a hermaphrodite find the term "guys" offensive you should ask your class and see. I only ask because they have a right to an opinion too.


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## rjwolfe3 (Jan 12, 2010)

Chief Hill said:


> Does a hermaphrodite find the term "guys" offensive you should ask your class and see. I only ask because they have a right to an opinion too.




:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:


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## AceMrFixIt (Jan 12, 2010)

Holy cow/bull.......this thing has gotten longer than the post on the herringbone 360......OH the humanity.............


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## dustmaker (Jan 12, 2010)

I sure hope you are not saying you manipulated this whole discussion so we could unknowingly help you with your homework.  I sure hope that is not what you are saying!


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## GaryMGg (Jan 12, 2010)

And, the $64,000 question: is you or isn't you -- a guy?!? :tongue:


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## jeffnreno (Jan 12, 2010)

Wow - this is an amazing post.
I use the term guys all the time to be inclusive of men and women in a group.
I sure hope I havn't been offending my customers all these years.   I rely on my interaction with men and women to earn a living in outside sales.

My wife believes that guys is a fine term to use for a group and takes no offense.
So I guess I'm ok - since I don't believe I've lost any sales for using the word guys in mixed company.    

I will continue to use the term guys and if I offend anyone on this forum I hope they will forgive me.   By the way I appreciate women that have replied to my posts and helped me out.    I use the information that they give in there posts and appreciate it.


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## brookswife803 (Jan 12, 2010)

*Just one of the guys...*

As a woman on here I can't say that I've EVER found anyone offensive on here. That said I've been a welder since I was 15, worked in a factory since I was 18 as a welder of Bradley tanks, been a bartender at a cheap hole in the wall bar, and pretty much done what I wanted when I wanted and took pride when I was considered just one of the "guys". I think of it as a term of acceptance not a way to single out men over women. Most everything I've ever done has been something that was dominated by men and yes sometimes I had to work two or three times harder and have my work be much much better to get the same recognition as some male counter parts I must say that those instances could be counted on two fingers. I have found this forum to be nothing but positive, with everyone I've spoken to giving wonderful feedback and helpful nudges. Honestly some times I think the women who complain the most about being singled out and not a part of the group are that way because they don't MAKE themselves part of the group. You can either want to be treated differently or not but you can't have it both ways. I'm sure I'm probably making several feminists angry but darnit it makes my life hard when every guy I work with at first is nervous to speak because they don't know if I'm the type that takes every little statement and analyzes it for secret meanings. Come on people!


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## razor524 (Jan 12, 2010)

Great statement Elizabethsdrinkard, couldn't agree more.  Now how about we leave this here and go learn how to make better pens or convince ourselves we need another tool or more blanks, etc., which is why I hope most of us are here!


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## DocStram (Jan 12, 2010)

mickr said:


> Thanks all for the over 60 responses..the silly, the thoughtful, the funny...I have taken the day to try to get them in order by category...Those who would say:  Ok it's just as easy to type Folks as Guys..I'll do that  Then the ones who said Guys is inclusive..and so on & so on  I am taking this to my college course this evening . The class is about language and how men , women, native, etc .,  hear it and how they perceive it...My contribution will be the responses from a penmaking forum from people who were able to answer over a 6 hr period...Thank you again for helping me with my continuing education in my old age. It has been eye opening and informative.



Be certain to tell your professor that you conducted research involving humans without gaining the consent of the participants.  While you're at it, give the president of your university a heads up that IAP members will be filing a class action suit. Looks to me like we won't be needing to do a fund raiser for a very long time.


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## jlg2x (Jan 13, 2010)

Greetings Earthlings.
 
I could think of alot of things to be called that are worse than guy!


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## lorbay (Jan 13, 2010)

One of the moderators is going to say stop the pile ons.
Lin.


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## wdcav1952 (Jan 13, 2010)

The most interesting thing I find about the entire thread is that the member who started it chooses to remain anonymous.


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## tim self (Jan 13, 2010)

*Finally!*



DocStram said:


> Be certain to tell your professor that you conducted research involving humans without gaining the consent of the participants.  While you're at it, give the president of your university a heads up that IAP members will be filing a class action suit. Looks to me like we won't be needing to do a fund raiser for a very long time.



Now that makes the most sense of any post in this whole mess!


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## Mac (Jan 13, 2010)

Ok lets face it (you guys) is a yankee thang.. We down here says (you all) combined as one word, youall.  So my vote is to say youall. Which means all of youuns.


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## Karin Voorhis (Jan 13, 2010)

I was going to stay out of all this silliness but as a "womyn" and living with 3 other "womyn" We all talked about this and thread and think its silliness. I am a very Happy IAP member and My 3 Womyn roommates agree that they are happy I am an IAP member and think all you IAP guys gals chics dudes ect.... are super great because know I don't have to talk all the pen talk with them all the time. LOL!


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## AceMrFixIt (Jan 13, 2010)

Mac said:


> Ok lets face it (you guys) is a yankee thang.. We down here says (you all) combined as one word, youall. So my vote is to say youall. Which means all of youuns.


 
I believe its spelled "yall".


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## NewLondon88 (Jan 13, 2010)

Karin Voorhis said:


> My 3 Womyn roommates agree that they are happy I am an IAP member and think all you IAP guys gals chics dudes ect.... are super great because know I don't have to talk all the pen talk with them all the time. LOL!



See? We're good for something! :tongue:

Personally, I think some people just decide to be offended.. and then they
pick something to be offended *about.

*BTW .. why is "mankind" out, but "Humankind" is in?

Mankind is gender neutral.
Human comes from the Latin 'humanus' which is masculine


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## Monty (Jan 13, 2010)

AceMrFixIt said:


> I believe its spelled "yall".





Mac said:


> Ok lets face it (you guys) is a yankee thang.. We down here says (you all) combined as one word, youall.  So my vote is to say youall. Which means all of youuns.



It's "all ya'll"


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## NewLondon88 (Jan 13, 2010)

Monty said:


> It's "all ya'll"



Well, that's the non-exclusive inclusive form.
I use you all  y'all's just to be safe.


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## JayDevin (Jan 13, 2010)

what tex said

big time


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## tbird (Jan 13, 2010)

Personally, there are many more things I could be called (and have been :biggrin that would upset me. What I expect from someone is that they treat me the way I treat them, Doesn't always happen, but I'm big enough to get over it or maybe I'm not treating them right and need to change my approach. 

If being desiginated as "one of the guys" - I'm excited because isn't that what everyone wants....to be included and not on the outside looking in?


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## timcbs (Jan 13, 2010)

I know I was one of the people who was always calling everyone "Guys" after it was pointed out I changes to "Hi Everyone", I took one look at the Pen and things she was making and they were better then some of the stuff I have made...


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## TellicoTurning (Jan 13, 2010)

dow said:


> Well, you know what they say, ignorance is bliss. :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:
> 
> Actually, my most favorite vanilla flavor is HEB 1905 Vanilla, with fresh ground nutmeg on it. YUMMMMMMMMM!!!!
> 
> Second is Poteet strawberry.  Man _(oops, I mean human)_, that stuff is so rich it'll put you in a higher tax bracket.  :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:



Dow,
You are from Boerne and not all that far from Brenham where you know and everyone in Texas knows they make Blue Bell Home made Vanilla from those singing cows... Take a couple or three scoops of BBHMV and pour a little Bailey's Irish Creme over it and then just drift on cloud 9...

Up here BBHMV is nearly $7 a carton and not in the budget of a pore ol' retired boy from Texas.:wink:


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## GaryMGg (Jan 13, 2010)

NewLondon88 said:


> Well, that's the non-exclusive inclusive form.
> I use you all y'all's just to be safe.


 
methinks it's y'all. :biggrin:
Y'all take care now, ya hear!  :wink:


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## jeff (Jan 13, 2010)

mickr said:


> Thanks all for the over 60 responses..the silly, the thoughtful, the funny...I have taken the day to try to get them in order by category...Those who would say:  Ok it's just as easy to type Folks as Guys..I'll do that  Then the ones who said Guys is inclusive..and so on & so on  I am taking this to my college course this evening . The class is about language and how men , women, native, etc .,  hear it and how they perceive it...My contribution will be the responses from a penmaking forum from people who were able to answer over a 6 hr period...Thank you again for helping me with my continuing education in my old age. It has been eye opening and informative.



This smelled fishy when I read the first post. I can think of several better approaches to gathering data than to make a shill post. A far more ethical approach would be to simply ask for opinions.

I don't appreciate this any more than I would if a guest in my home yelled "fire!" during a party with the excuse that he needed to gather data for his class on human behavior in a panic situation. When one of my guests gets trampled and your excuse is that you were furthering your education, you'd most certainly leave the property in handcuffs. 

Also, you violated our Terms of Service. Have a look at the section "Limitation of Re-Use". I'm sure many of the posters in this thread don't appreciate their responses being used for your educational purposes. 

Our members are very willing to give opinions on countless topics with a simple request. Please, don't use this surreptitious approach again.


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## TellicoTurning (Jan 13, 2010)

AceMrFixIt said:


> I believe its spelled "yall".



No I believe it's a contraction and spelled  "Y'all"... :biggrin:
the plural of which is "all Y'all"  :biggrin::biggrin:


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## NewLondon88 (Jan 13, 2010)

TellicoTurning said:


> No I believe it's a contraction and spelled  "Y'all"... :biggrin:
> the plural of which is "all Y'all"  :biggrin::biggrin:



so .. if I'm visiting from Jersey and want to make sure I don't 
leave anyone out, I should say all you'se guys all y'all ?
Or should that be you'se persons?


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## CSue (Jan 13, 2010)

Well, ya'll, my two cents worth?

First of all, I'm an "old lady."  Back in the old days, when I learned grammar in school, I learned that the use of "he" and such was, in context, a term which meant all - male and female.  I use the term "guys" all the time for the same reason.  I always have - all my life.  Sitting around with my fellow female classmates, it was understood when I asked if "You guys want to go to a movie?" that I was not referring to the boys at the next table.

I understand where this change in language has stirred from.  I regret that other women feel it excludes them.  I wish they kept teaching grammer like when I was young.  But things change.  I don't cook on a wood burning stove anymore.  And I'm glad of that.  But if you happen to run across some of my posts and I'm saying "Hey guys, . . . " I am speaking as I always have - since those very early days - where it is a general term including male and female people.  That's just the way I am.  And I would hope you allow me to continue posting here - even though my language has not yet adapted to the modern age as my stove has.


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## Jim15 (Jan 14, 2010)

Thanks Jeff.


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## jleiwig (Jan 14, 2010)

jeff said:


> This smelled fishy when I read the first post. I can think of several better approaches to gathering data than to make a shill post. A far more ethical approach would be to simply ask for opinions.
> 
> I don't appreciate this any more than I would if a guest in my home yelled "fire!" during a party with the excuse that he needed to gather data for his class on human behavior in a panic situation. When one of my guests gets trampled and your excuse is that you were furthering your education, you'd most certainly leave the property in handcuffs.
> 
> ...


 
So can we (YOU) ban him and solve all our Inclusivity problems? :biggrin:


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## Rojo22 (Jan 14, 2010)

AceMrFixIt said:


> Holy cow/bull.......this thing has gotten longer than the post on the herringbone 360......OH the humanity.............



Apparently the HB  360 topic was much more volatile/offensive, as it was shut down, and no other posts allowed........LOL......But my inbox sure filled up quickly......


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## Crashmph (Jan 14, 2010)

CSue said:


> Well, ya'll, my two cents worth?
> 
> First of all, I'm an "old lady."  Back in the old days, when I learned grammar in school, I learned that the use of "he" and such was, in context, a term which meant all - male and female.  I use the term "guys" all the time for the same reason.  I always have - all my life.  Sitting around with my fellow female classmates, it was understood when I asked if "You guys want to go to a movie?" that I was not referring to the boys at the next table.
> 
> I understand where this change in language has stirred from.  I regret that other women feel it excludes them.  I wish they kept teaching grammer like when I was young.  But things change.  I don't cook on a wood burning stove anymore.  And I'm glad of that.  But if you happen to run across some of my posts and I'm saying "Hey guys, . . . " I am speaking as I always have - since those very early days - where it is a general term including male and female people.  That's just the way I am.  And I would hope you allow me to continue posting here - even though my language has not yet adapted to the modern age as my stove has.



Extremely well spoken!


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## Oldwagon (Jan 14, 2010)

Thank you Jeff.


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## Bree (Jan 14, 2010)

I confess that I wasn't able to make it through every page of this thread.  I really couldn't care less if you call everyone "guys".  It is a matter of no concern whatsoever.  

My contributions and comments are based solely on my abilty or lack of abilty as a pen turner or "craftsman".  I don't care if someone uses "craftsman", "craftsperson" or "craftswoman".  This is about working wood... nothing else.

I have never felt disrespected or otherwise offended here and fail to see how any other woman would.  If a gal has such thin skin maybe she should join a sewing bee instead of working wood.  

What I mean is that it is not realistic or even reasonable to try to change lifelong habits of good people when there is no genuine interest at stake.  Gender equality is not based on whether or not a basically neutral aggregate term like "guys" is used.  It is based on treating one another with mutual respect no matter what one's gender is.  I have no desire to redefine the English language nor its usage.

I want NO SPECIAL TREATMENT.  I want the same basic respect that everyone else gets.  I'll earn the rest with my work, friendship, and respect I show others.  

My $.02.


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## babyblues (Jan 14, 2010)

Well, I find political correctness to be offensive, so I expect that all political correctness on this forum will cease immediately.  It insinuates that I could be incorrect, thus damaging my sense of self.  I also think it's offensive that so many of you mock your wives by referring to them as "She Who Must Be Obeyed" so I also expect that will cease immediately.  I find it offensive that some of you use those ugly polaris pen kits, so please stop using those as it offends me.  I shouldn't have to see that when I come to this forum.  YOUR TAKING OFFENSE OFFENDS ME, so stop being offended.  How ridiculous does this have to get before we're willing to admit that it's ridiculous?

If someone starts a post with, "Hi males, as a male, I'm clearly superior to any and all females, so obviously all females are excluded from this post and will kindly continue being inferior to me as a male" than by all means, take offense because that is indeed offensive.  But don't start pissing and moaning because someone used a particular word when referring to a group of mixed gender.  They're obviously not excluding women, so please, take this divisive and manipulative attitude to another forum.  We certainly don't need that here.  If you want to be a part of this forum, come be a part of this forum and I'll be ecstatic to have you here.  But if you start pushing and shoving and demanding that everything be changed to suit your delicate sensitivities, than you will almost certainly feel unwelcome because people are naturally going to resist being manipulated.

Before you take offense to anything I've posted,  remember that I'm offended by you taking offense.  That means you have to stop.  Thank you.


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## Karin Voorhis (Jan 14, 2010)

babyblues said:


> Before you take offense to anything I've posted,  remember that I'm offended by you taking offense.  That means you have to stop.  Thank you.



I love this it's perfect. Sue and Bree very well put both of you said just what I was feeling too. Minus the cooking on woodstove. That would mean burning up potential pen blanks to eat!!! Hahaha!  

This whole thread seems to of captivated a lot of us! When we should just let it die is the wind without any more posting. Both genders from this great IAP have sounded and we all seem very happy here and no one is feeling left out. There for I suggest we get back to turning and talking Pens power tools and wood toss in some blo and ca and to be honest you talk that I don't care if your a person alien animal or a freak mutation. You and I have something in common and share a passion we can enjoy share and help each other with....


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## AceMrFixIt (Jan 14, 2010)

NewLondon88 said:


> so .. if I'm visiting from Jersey and want to make sure I don't
> leave anyone out, I should say all you'se guys all y'all ?
> Or should that be you'se persons?


 
Being born in PA I used the you'se guys, red up the house and the like. Now being a southern transplant I use y'all and clean up that frappin room.......they all get the meaning.


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## dow (Jan 14, 2010)

babyblues said:


> ...Before you take offense to anything I've posted,  remember that I'm offended by you taking offense.  T...



Well, I know one thing for sure.  The next time somebody takes a fence, I hope that they bring it by my house.  I need a fence in my back yard.  You can pm for my address, and be sure to bring some friends to help put it up.  I'll throw something on the pit and we'll have a high old time.  Just don't show up without a fence.:biggrin:


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## dustmaker (Jan 14, 2010)

Bree said:


> I confess that I wasn't able to make it through every page of this thread.  I really couldn't care less if you call everyone "guys".  It is a matter of no concern whatsoever.
> 
> My contributions and comments are based solely on my abilty or lack of abilty as a pen turner or "craftsman".  I don't care if someone uses "craftsman", "craftsperson" or "craftswoman".  This is about working wood... nothing else.
> 
> ...



Bree, well stated.  It resounds the words of the late Dr. Martin Luther King, although we was speaking to racism, I think it applies here as well:
"A man should not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
As far as I am concerned everyone who comes here comes on equal footing.  It is what we do with what we are given that sets some apart.  Do you contribute?  Do you enlighten?  Do you demonstrate?  Do you act with respect or stir up trouble?  Have you made this forum in some way better?  And while I believe that respect is earned, it is also owed.
The OP may not have started this thread with the greatest intentions, but I think some good is coming out of it.


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## babyblues (Jan 14, 2010)

dow said:


> Well, I know one thing for sure.  The next time somebody takes a fence, I hope that they bring it by my house.  I need a fence in my back yard.  You can pm for my address, and be sure to bring some friends to help put it up.  I'll throw something on the pit and we'll have a high old time.  Just don't show up without a fence.:biggrin:



AHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!  That's great!!!!  I think there are plenty of extra fences around here after this thread.  :biggrin:


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## angboy (Jan 14, 2010)

As a female on the forums I had to respond to this post. I've never felt excluded or offended or condescended to by virtue of being female here. And even though I know many people thought I was male at first, because of my username, that was in no way intentional or any effort to hide my gender, it's just that putting the first part of my first and last name together makes it sound male. (And I've just been too lazy to make an avatar, but it'd probably give away my gender if I ever did make one.)

I know some people do take more offense than me at labels or words that seem to be used as labels. Being a diabetic, and working in the healthcare field, I know that many people hate the term "diabetic" and say that one should be called a "person with diabetes", since there's more to the person than just the diabetes. Well yes, that's true, there is more to me than that, but it is a part of me and for convenience sake, it is an easy way to indicate something (like referring to "guys" here, to mean the general population). 

I once did a professional presentation to a state organization and got some negative feedback for using the term "diabetic" and someone wrote that I should think about how a person with diabetes feels about that- of course she didn't know that I was a "person with diabetes" and I was fine with what I said. Taken to an extreme, we shouldn't call someone a "mother", we should call her a "person with children" because after all, there's more to her than her "motherhood" isn't there? We shouldn't call someone a "police officer" but rather a "person who's employed in the law enforcement field" because after all, he or she might also be a "person with a child" and many other things in life.

So I guess my conclusion is that I know that some people seem more sensitive about these things than I myself am, but I think that we sometimes got too hung up on being too "politically correct" to the point that it's ridiculous.

- from "the person who has a set of female reproductive organs and also has diabetes and participates in shop work that involves turning projects" AKA, the female diabetic turner!


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## PR_Princess (Jan 14, 2010)

Angie, I am glad to see you making your way back on to the forum lately.

I have always enjoyed your posts!!! You go girl!! :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:


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## ed4copies (Jan 14, 2010)

Yeah, me too Angie!!!

signed:
A person with a skew or just a "good-skewin' person"!!!


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## Reb (Jan 14, 2010)

If I could read 12 pages on how to make a closed end pen using custom drill and taps, I'd be a happy man. (person)


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## sol92258 (Jan 15, 2010)

Ummm, wow....
much ado about nothing, methinks.

Starting off with the serious - for me, political correctness can take a long walk off a short pier, and carry an defunct cast iron lathe with it :biggrin:.
That said, we should be careful to be tactful and courteous, but making a mountain out of a molehill with the word "guys" is crazy.  Same for "mankind" - it's simply a combination of two words, "mank", and "ind", neither of which we have a clue what they mean...

Seeing as this was apparently a ploy by the OP, then I see why a big deal was made - to elicit a response, which I firmly believe is 90% of the reason for most of the "PC issues" in the news today (and not the kind of PCs I work on everyday )



Now, onto the important stuff....




Mac said:


> Ok lets face it (you guys) is a yankee thang.. We down here says (you all) combined as one word, youall.  So my vote is to say youall. Which means all of youuns.
> 
> 
> AceMrFixIt said:
> ...





Remember: "Y'all" is singular. "All y'all" is plural. "All y'all's" is plural possessive.


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## angboy (Jan 15, 2010)

Ya'll is also the definitive tell you have for people to know you're not from around these parts, when you grow up in Virginia and then move to places like Nebraska or California. Even if you don't have much of a southern accent, which I don't, that word gives away your background every time it comes out of your mouth!

(And thanks Dawn and Ed, it's nice to find some time to make it back.)


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## Scotty (Jan 15, 2010)

I have spent way too much time reading this thread......I won't be clicking on this one again!


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