# High end small diameter pen recommendations



## Russ Hewitt (Jul 30, 2015)

I have been making high end,  two-piece pens up to now. Most use a 10mm or 10 1/2mm and a 12mm for the cap.   It occurred to me that not everybody is ham-handed like myself and that there is a call for smaller diameter pens.   Does anyone have any recommendations for the extreme high and pens using 7mm, 8mm or 3/8" tubes?   I would also like to get a few click type and twist styles to add to my offerings. Thanks


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## Indiana_Parrothead (Jul 30, 2015)

You can take a look at the Sierra Elegant Beauty or may be the Majestic Squire

Mike


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## ed4copies (Jul 30, 2015)

Do you consider ANY pen using a "cross-type" refill as "high end"?  My answer would be NO.

So, to me, high end would be a rollerball or fountain (or "low-high" could be a Parker style using the 9000 refill).  

The cigar pen has had some difficulties with the 9000 refill not fitting, it's just a little too tight a fit.  Actually happens at the center coupler that screws on the transmission.  The tubes on these require a 25/64 hole (.390625").  So, experience would indicate this to be a "minimum acceptable size" from which to start, for a Parker type.

You can perform the same "calculations" for rollerballs and fountain pens---that gives you a starting point.

Good luck in your endeavor!!
Ed


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## thewishman (Jul 30, 2015)

****Silver Pen Parts****

Mike can make virtually anything you can dream of in silver. For extreme high-end, he can make the parts out of gold.

He has made several very high-end sets of pen parts for me. One pen sold for $3500, one is for sale at $5000. He can also set precious gems in the silver or gold parts. Emeralds look great in silver and rubies look great in gold, virtually anything is possible.


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## Russ Hewitt (Jul 30, 2015)

ed4copies said:


> Do you consider ANY pen using a "cross-type" refill as "high end"?  My answer would be NO.
> 
> So, to me, high end would be a rollerball or fountain (or "low-high" could be a Parker style using the 9000 refill).
> 
> ...



I buy the majority of my stuff from you, so which models do you suggest I look at?


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## SteveG (Jul 30, 2015)

I second the suggestion for:***Silver Pen Parts*** if your budget is OK with the cost (an appropriate cost for the product, just in a class by itself).  

If you are more interested in mass produced "kit" solutions, I favor the Majestic Squire, which in my opinion looks great with the clip crystal, or can be modified by replacing that crystal with whatever works well with your selected materials. This is one of the smallest designs available, expecting that 7mm/Cross refill designs will not be on the list.


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## jyreene (Jul 30, 2015)

SteveG said:


> I second the suggestion for:***Silver Pen Parts*** if your budget is OK with the cost (an appropriate cost for the product, just in a class by itself).  If you are more interested in mass produced "kit" solutions, I favor the Majestic Squire, which in my opinion looks great with the clip crystal, or can be modified by replacing that crystal with whatever works well with your selected materials. This is one of the smallest designs available, expecting that 7mm/Cross refill designs will not be on the list.



I third the Silver Pen Parts.


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## ed4copies (Jul 30, 2015)

Russ Hewitt said:


> ed4copies said:
> 
> 
> > Do you consider ANY pen using a "cross-type" refill as "high end"?  My answer would be NO.
> ...



I have never equated "thin" with "high end", so I don't have a "pat answer" for you Russ.  The baron-sedona body is thin and yet elegant, and the pens come in a variety of plating choices.  Thinner yet is the "new series", but the plating choices are limited.  All of these are Berea.

I will spend some time researching this, this weekend and try to give you a better answer!!

Ed


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## Russ Hewitt (Jul 31, 2015)

ed4copies said:


> Russ Hewitt said:
> 
> 
> > ed4copies said:
> ...



Thanks Ed.  I didn't think there would be any 7mm stuff, but I wanted something more smaller for the ladies and people that don't like the larger styles.


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## MTViper (Jul 31, 2015)

Have you thought about the Tetra pen kit from Berea (and a few others).  It's built on an 8.2mm tube and uses a Parker refill.  I've tried other brands and they fit nicely.  It's a two piece twist pen with a mesh stylus on the cap.  I've made a lot of them and everyone who likes a thinner pen loves them.  Here's a link for one of the finishes:  Bear Tooth Woods - Tetra Stylus Gold Accents on Gunmetal Pen Kit

Steve


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## Chasper (Jul 31, 2015)

For me "high end" means rollerball or fountain pen, and it means that I can easily sell it for over $100 and it will not be seen as overpriced.  It must also be a capped pen.

The New Series Round Top Screw Cap pen is the closest I find to that set of criteria.  It is only available in chrome, 3/8" tube and the threads are metal on metal.  It does make a nice pen, the size is very attractive for someone who wants a small fountain pen, but having a widely accepted value of $100+ is a stretch even with a custom tuned nib.  With a blank made of Tru-Stone, feathers, ebonite or some other obvious upgrade it would have a higher perceived value.

The Marksman Nighthawk was a solid stainless US made small diameter pen, but it was non-posting and that killed all possibilities of it being a high volume seller.  Unlike the other solid stainless screw cap pens, Nighthawk was a snap cap pen so the metal on metal thread problem was gone.  Nighthawk, with a snap cap for posting would truly be a high end small diameter pen.


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## Smitty37 (Jul 31, 2015)

ed4copies said:


> Do you consider ANY pen using a "cross-type" refill as "high end"?  *My answer would be NO.
> *
> So, to me, high end would be a rollerball or fountain (or "low-high" could be a Parker style using the 9000 refill).
> 
> ...


I don't disagree with you Ed,  but Cross Pens probably would. 
They market some pens for over $200 that use Cross ballpoint refills.


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## ed4copies (Jul 31, 2015)

Hey Smitty!

I remember when a Cross pen was a symbol of excellence and used as rewards for achievement.  In fact, I  had a few "gold" Cross with various manufacturers' logos given to me for selling a lot of copiers.

In the "hand-made" arena, however, the Cross refill has been reduced to the cheap Chinese slimlines.  Cross refills are easily available from China for pennies---are they really Cross brand?  I don't know, but it certainly has watered down any prestige Cross enjoyed.

The main reason I feel they are not able to be "high end" is the quality of the refills available is just NOT outstanding.  I sold pens as "jewelry" and "prestige", yes.  However, they are, first and foremost, writing tools.  No matter how pretty the pen, it won't impress if it writes for spit!!

That is the basis for my opinion.  I welcome others to have their own opinions!!


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## Smitty37 (Jul 31, 2015)

Cross has a specific refill (#8513 they use in their high priced ballpoints, I've never tried it but they seem to think its better than the others.  I was just tooking to convey that 7mm does not necessarily dictate low price.  If Cross can sell a factory made pen fo $150/$200 a top notch pen maker ought to be able to also.


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## ed4copies (Jul 31, 2015)

I welcome your opinion!!!

I would say a Cross salesman has no choice but to sell his advantages.

A handmade salesman is also the maker---he has a great range of choices.
Choose wisely, grasshopper!!


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## firewhatfire (Jul 31, 2015)

entertaining discussion here.  I may try the 8513 if I run across one somewhere.  Hopefully someone here will have experience with them.  I have sold slimline pens for $100 with no modifications.  I think one of our resident Alaskans has sold them for even more.  

Sometimes it all comes down to material use.  Hoping it cools off some in the near future  I can get back in the shop.  Alot of ideas are brewing around in my head this just adds to my list.


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## KenV (Jul 31, 2015)

The Cross 8512 refill seems to be pretty low price for a premium refill.

http://www.amazon.com/Cross-Ballpoi...8&qid=1438382059&sr=1-1&keywords=refill+cross

$5.42 for a pair --


Reviews at the bottom note the loss of quality since 2006.


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## Smitty37 (Jul 31, 2015)

KenV said:


> The Cross 8512 refill seems to be pretty low price for a premium refill.
> 
> Amazon.com : Cross Ballpoint Refill, Medium Black, 2 per card (8513-2) : Pen Refills : Office Products
> 
> ...


The one they talk about is #8513 not 8512 and at the cross website it is $8.75 a pair and $5 something for a single.  Cross offers it in at least 1 $220 pen.


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## dtswebb (Jul 31, 2015)

Russ,

I'll second Ed's choice of the Baron and Sedona if you're looking for a fountain pen or rollerball that isn't too large in the diameter.  They go over real well with the women and the men that don't have big paws like I do (and it seems you're in the same boat on that).

If you're looking for a thinner diameter ballpoint, I've had good success with the Perfect Fit.  It's a little larger in diameter than the 7 mm European and the Perfect Fit does use the Parker refill.

As for me, I normally carry an Atrax ballpoint that is a little more "voluptuous" (the barrels are a little more "blown out" than normal) or an El Grande ballpoint.

I'm interested to read what Ed recommends.

Matthew


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## KenV (Jul 31, 2015)

Smitty37 said:


> KenV said:
> 
> 
> > The Cross 8512 refill seems to be pretty low price for a premium refill.
> ...




8513-2 is not 8512   (8512 numbers were for a different color cross refill).  

And those are Cross Numbers -- just that Amazon sells closer to street price than Cross.


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## Smitty37 (Jul 31, 2015)

KenV said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > KenV said:
> ...


That is true but  you get free shipping with a $1.00 handling charge from Cross and $6.01 shipping from Amazon. Buying a bunch Amazon would probably be cheaper.

Still both would be About the same as 2 Schmidt Easyflow 9000 from exoticblanks a pretty good parker style which I don't think of as particularily cheap.


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## KenV (Aug 1, 2015)

Smitty --  I get the Amazon price with Prime and the shipping is at no added cost.   My spouse gets the prime so she can use the streaming videos from Amazon so tis free to me.


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## Joey-Nieves (Aug 1, 2015)

Well here goes my 2 cents; I agree with Ed, 7mm pens are no longer a high-end pen, basically because of the refill limitation.  I don't think it's only a matter of sales price or the turners workmanship that make a pen high-end, it's the quality of the ink and the mechanics of the pen that have the final say.  Cross has moved on from the 85 whatever refill we use, and are using roller ball and fountain pens as there high end pens.  They do have expensive slimline pens but if you look at them there price is set by the material they use to make, mostly gold or silver.

As pen-turners we set the bar for what is a high-end pen.  I would say that most of us agree that a pen most have a high quality ink and mechanism in order to fit the criteria. 

I once saw a kit that used a Schmidt type refill on a twist pen mechanism, then I forgot where I saw it (was it you Ed?). If we can identify, or have mechanisms made that use a better quality ink, like a rollerball, them we will have a high-end pen that will live up to our superb craftsmanship!

Joey


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## ed4copies (Aug 1, 2015)

I think the pen you are referencing was Smitty's creation.   He made the Schmidt 9000 "standard" on at least one of his pens.

The idea of making a 9000 refill part of the "kit" would raise the price--exotics offers it as an option because our sales records still show that "economical" is the primary motivator of penmakers.  (We sell more chrome than any other plating, by far).  Far more $6 kits than $12.  

It would be great to believe that I could "sell the benefits" and change this trend.  But, I doubt it.


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## Russ Hewitt (Aug 1, 2015)

ed4copies;178442
The idea of making a 9000 refill part of the "kit" would raise the price--exotics offers it as an option because our sales records still show that "economical" is the primary motivator of penmakers.  (We sell more chrome than any other plating said:
			
		

> I guess I'm the exception.  I buy a few $12 kits as giveaways, and ALWAYS buy the upgraded ink/nib, when offered.  I would love to make a high quality slimline.  Even if you put the best wood or plastic on it, the plating is pretty much junk.


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## Smitty37 (Aug 1, 2015)

ed4copies said:


> I think the pen you are referencing was Smitty's creation.   He made the Schmidt 9000 "standard" on at least one of his pens.
> 
> The idea of making a 9000 refill part of the "kit" would raise the price--exotics offers it as an option because our sales records still show that "economical" is the primary motivator of penmakers.  (We sell more chrome than any other plating, by far).  Far more $6 kits than $12.
> 
> It would be great to believe that I could "sell the benefits" and change this trend.  But, I doubt it.


The Schmidt easyflow 9000 refill is standard on all of my parker style kits. Except one from Dayacom which has their branded refill.  All of my rollerball kits have schmidt refills also... again except Dayacom.


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## Joey-Nieves (Aug 2, 2015)

ed4copies said:


> I think the pen you are referencing was Smitty's creation.   He made the Schmidt 9000 "standard" on at least one of his pens.
> 
> The idea of making a 9000 refill part of the "kit" would raise the price--exotics offers it as an option because our sales records still show that "economical" is the primary motivator of penmakers.  (We sell more chrome than any other plating, by far).  Far more $6 kits than $12.
> 
> It would be great to believe that I could "sell the benefits" and change this trend.  But, I doubt it.



Ed I saw a 888 type refill, maybe not an 888 exactly, but the style.

Well my Friend you just introduced a new variable into the equation, cost.  I make a living by turning pens, and I need to keep my cost as low as possible, unfortunately I don't have a working capital that will allow me to purchase a big inventory in order save on quantity.  Also my market requires that I carry low, middle and high end pens, so that means an ample selection of styles, woods and acrylics.  I also make kitless pens in wood and acrylics, ergo all the sections I buy from you. So in order to keep my costs low I have to shop around, wait for sales or taunt PSI shopping cart until they sent a 10 or 20 % discount.  

This brings back to Medium and high end pens, as someone said before high end pen would be a roller ball or fountain pen with a cap and a good plaiting, Rhodium, Black or gold Titanium, or 10Kt, although there are very few 10 Kt kits available that are actually good(CUSA Americana). As a Medium kit I use most anything with a Parker refill that will allow me to upgrade to a 9000 or similar.  But my work horse is the slimline, I turn over 1000 of these a year and use segmenting and wood spices to range the price between $20 - $50, wouldn't it be nice to have a slimline pro 8mm Twist pen with a 9000 refill that could be included in the medium end pens or maybe in the high end pens with a good plating?

Maybe you guys already have a solution, just let me in on it, my daughters tuition will appreciate it a lot!


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## BSea (Aug 2, 2015)

Russ Hewitt said:


> ed4copies said:
> 
> 
> > The idea of making a 9000 refill part of the "kit" would raise the price--exotics offers it as an option because our sales records still show that "economical" is the primary motivator of penmakers.  (We sell more chrome than any other plating, by far).
> ...


You can get a slimline or Euro in Rhodium, Black Ti & Gold Ti.  I know CSUSA sells them, along with Exotics.


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## BSea (Aug 2, 2015)

Joey-Nieves said:


> ed4copies said:
> 
> 
> > wouldn't it be nice to have a slimline pro 8mm Twist pen with a 9000 refill that could be included in the medium end pens or maybe in the high end pens with a good plating?
> ...


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## ed4copies (Aug 2, 2015)

Well, I slept off and on between "sickies" yesterday, so not a lot was accomplished.

I did think about this thread and realized we need to define "high end".  It seems to be applied to pens just over $100 retail selling price for the made pen.

In the latter years of selling at shows, I considered $125 a "low mid price", high end started about $350.  

So, rather than debate what is high and what isn't, what price point (retail pen to customer) are you, Russ (since you were the OP) looking for.

We can start several threads and discuss different retail price levels, but answers will be much better if we are all using the same parameters.


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## builtbybill (Aug 2, 2015)

Not to get to far off topic, but I have been following this thread because it kind of points to something I would like to know - not necessarily "high end" but "high quality" slimline style pens.  We all know about the super cheap gold slimline/trimline pens, but are there any really good quality pens in this arena?  Also like the shape of slimline pro but not the plain band and black stripe clip.


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## zig613 (Aug 2, 2015)

builtbybill said:


> Not to get to far off topic, but I have been following this thread because it kind of points to something I would like to know - not necessarily "high end" but "high quality" slimline style pens.  We all know about the super cheap gold slimline/trimline pens, but are there any really good quality pens in this arena?  Also like the shape of slimline pro but not the plain band and black stripe clip.


 
PSI has a pretty good gold titanium slimline kit https://www.pennstateind.com/store/PK-PENA2TN.html.  I have made a couple hundred of them over the past few years and I haven't had any issues with them.   But, I wouldn't consider them as a high end pen like to OP is looking for.

Wade


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## Joey-Nieves (Aug 4, 2015)

Well this is what I've been looking for, but there all out!  I was thinking that a pen like this with a good plating and a 9000 refill could be used for those clients that are looking for something better than cross, at a fair price.  I know all markets are different, but in mine this could sell for $45 and up.
Simplicity Ballpoint Pen Kit

Does anyone have a source for these pens?


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## SteveG (Aug 4, 2015)

I also have been wanting the simple, Parker refill type of pen mentioned by Joey-Nieves (post #33). Sad that it is not in stock. I do not know if there is intent by Aaron Lau to bring it back, but I sure hope he does, especially the Black Ti plating.


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## BSea (Aug 4, 2015)

Joey-Nieves said:


> Well this is what I've been looking for, but there all out!  I was thinking that a pen like this with a good plating and a 9000 refill could be used for those clients that are looking for something better than cross, at a fair price.  I know all markets are different, but in mine this could sell for $45 and up.
> Simplicity Ballpoint Pen Kit
> 
> Does anyone have a source for these pens?


That looks like exactly what you are looking for.  The Neopean is like the Euro with a parker refill. The simplicity looks like a parker version of a slimline.  I've never noticed this kit before, and frankly, I like the Euro over the slimline, or in this case, the Neopean over the simplicity.



SteveG said:


> I also have been wanting the simple, Parker refill type of pen mentioned by Joey-Nieves (post #33). Sad that it is not in stock. I do not know if there is intent by Aaron Lau to bring it back, but I sure hope he does, especially the Black Ti plating.


Just give him a call.  He's a nice guy, and has been very helpful with me in the past.


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## BSea (Aug 4, 2015)

For a comparison, here's a picture of a Euro and a Neopean together. Neopean is on the top.


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## Charlie69 (Aug 4, 2015)

The Neopeans are my favorite Parker refill  pen by far, Dan Massart gave me the heads up on these and I love them.   They are easy to customize by removing the center band to give them a slimline look and a super comfortable 11.5mm o.d..... custom finials are a breeze if you use another clip or bore out/alter the clip that comes with the kit.  ditching the stock threaded finial and coupler? makes them quite a bit lighter and more shirt pocket friendly.   Not that they're heavy but I work in a very fast paced environment and having a light pen in my shirt pocket is a bonus.   Bounces around less.

 Tube lengths changes are no problem too and I'll take a 1/4 to 1/3" off the tube to make them a little shorter.


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## SteveG (Aug 4, 2015)

Joey-Nieves said:


> Well this is what I've been looking for, but there all out!  I was thinking that a pen like this with a good plating and a 9000 refill could be used for those clients that are looking for something better than cross, at a fair price.  I know all markets are different, but in mine this could sell for $45 and up.
> Simplicity Ballpoint Pen Kit
> 
> Does anyone have a source for these pens?



_______________________________________________________

I emailed Aaron and/or Jill of Lau Lau Pen Kits today (Aug 4). Here is their response:

 Hi Steve,

The shipment is due in the middle of this month.  I will post it once I receive them.  Thanks for your patience.


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## Quality Pen (Aug 8, 2015)

Those Neo clips look so "weird" to me... is there a common clip that can be exchanged for it by chance?


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## BSea (Aug 8, 2015)

Quality Pen said:


> Those Neo clips look so "weird" to me... is there a common clip that can be exchanged for it by chance?



Eye of the beholder I guess.  I really like the clip.  But to answer your question, I doubt another one would fit.  It works like the Euro with the screw in finial.  I don't know of a similar kit in that size.


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## Fish30114 (Aug 8, 2015)

Bsea, I think I disagree with you. The reason I say I think, is because I don't _know_ but as another poster pointed out it is fairly easy to create a custom finial by drilling out the current clip and fitting you finial into the tube, I think if you found a clip you liked that is readily available--like say a Sierra clip, as long as it wasn't to big to start with you could drill it to the appropriate size. 

So, just guessing, I have a few of these kits in my shop right now, if anyone really needs a specific answer, I could go down to the shop and do some measuring. They are really good kits as the come, Aaron if your listening, get the Simplicity produced in Gunmetal!!! 

BTW, I agree Aaron is very cordial and helpful.


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## Silver (Aug 8, 2015)

The Neopean clip is a copy of the old Euro that was supplied from Dayacom in to the UK around 10 years ago, never was a hit and still have some kits left over..

Post some pics if you need some.

Out of interest on small kit quality I have asked the same question in the UK as in my opinion the kits are getting so big and need to be slimmed a little. 

I liked the slimmed down version of the Gent but the other parts didn't match up to the quality. 

I agree that quality of refill is a big point, but price we are willing to pay has driven the quality down. So we get one they give up.

We do have a supplier in the UK that is trying to change that, supplying the pen makers market with a much better quality than what comes with the kits..

Thanks for the posts, makes good reading.


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## Silver (Aug 8, 2015)

SteveG said:


> I also have been wanting the simple, Parker refill type of pen mentioned by Joey-Nieves (post #33). Sad that it is not in stock. I do not know if there is intent by Aaron Lau to bring it back, but I sure hope he does, especially the Black Ti plating.



I understand Aaron is getting them back in towards the end of the month. Not sure which platings tho.


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## BSea (Aug 8, 2015)

Fish30114 said:


> Bsea, I think I disagree with you. The reason I say I think, is because I don't _know_ but as another poster pointed out it is fairly easy to create a custom finial by drilling out the current clip and fitting you finial into the tube, I think if you found a clip you liked that is readily available--like say a Sierra clip, as long as it wasn't to big to start with you could drill it to the appropriate size.
> 
> So, just guessing, I have a few of these kits in my shop right now, if anyone really needs a specific answer, I could go down to the shop and do some measuring. They are really good kits as the come, Aaron if your listening, get the Simplicity produced in Gunmetal!!!
> 
> BTW, I agree Aaron is very cordial and helpful.


Oh, I agree. With a custom finial, almost any clip will work if it doesn't have too big of a ring.  I was thinking more of a direct replacement without any custom work.  I don't think I have another Neopean, but I'd like to see if the cap diameter is the same.  If you can check the Neopean finial to a Euro finial, then we'd know if a Euro clip is a direct replacement.


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## Charlie69 (Aug 10, 2015)

A quick pic of a Neopean turned tonight.   Top tube was trimmed by 1/4", center band eliminated and custom finial.   I haven't turned a lot of pens but of the kits I have turned this is my favorite by far.    Shows a lot of blank, easily customized, and not overly rotund .   This one has a o.d. of 12.08mm at the center, 5.44" long and weighs  26.4 grams.   A great every day carry.


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## Quality Pen (Aug 10, 2015)

Charlie69 said:


> A quick pic of a Neopean turned tonight.   Top tube was trimmed by 1/4", center band eliminated and custom finial.   I haven't turned a lot of pens but of the kits I have turned this is my favorite by far.    Shows a lot of blank, easily customized, and not overly rotund .   This one has a o.d. of 12.08mm at the center, 5.44" long and weighs  26.4 grams.   A great every day carry.



Thanks Charlie!

That's a good looking pen!

Would you mind taking a photo of it with the clip more "head on"? Thank you.


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## Charlie69 (Aug 11, 2015)

Quality Pen said:


> Would you mind taking a photo of it with the clip more "head on"? Thank you.



The purple Neopean found a new home with a female coworker who traded a homemade chocolate cake for it.   She knows I have a bizarre weakness for baked goods and caught me in a moment of desperation:wink:.

Here's a straight shot of the clip.


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## Quality Pen (Aug 12, 2015)

lol... 

thanks...

How was the cake?!


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