# Is there an alternative to CA for gloss/durability?



## alankulwicki7 (Jan 30, 2011)

Hey all,

I'm looking for a good alternative to CA for my pens. I don't make very many pens so it's hard for me to get a consistent finish with CA. Sometimes it works great but sometimes it doesn't. 

Also, it seems like the CA wreaks havoc on my lungs because after I finish a pen with it I get a really bad cough. I don't have this problem when using other finishes. 

I've used HUT, Behlen's and WOP but I like the way CA shines....

Are there any other finishes that are durable, easy to apply and buff to a shine?

Thanks!
Doug


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## Russianwolf (Jan 30, 2011)

Lacquer, but the curing 
time is much longer.


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## Rolland (Jan 30, 2011)

I use a mask/respirator and have the vacuum set up to suck up the sanding dust and fumes from the ca. That solved the problem for me. I just made a box from heavy cardbroard box that fit on the floor attachment for the vacuum hose. 
I had the same problem with the fumes causing a sore throat and headache.


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## alankulwicki7 (Jan 30, 2011)

Thanks for the replies.....

What kind of lacquer? Spray can type?

How much longer is the dry time?

The last couple of times, I used my respirator and it still seemed to bother me. It was almost like a bad asthma attack (and I don't have asthma). Maybe if I use a fan to blow the fumes away and leave my DC on....

Thanks!
Doug


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## lorbay (Jan 30, 2011)

Check out this guy's finish, (Minwax) It takes a while. but it looks good.
http://content.penturners.org/articles/2008/minwaxfinish.pdf
Lin.


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## hunter-27 (Jan 30, 2011)

Not a CA replacement but perhaps an alternative for you to try.  I've used it and had pretty good luck with it.  http://www.woodwriteltd.com/turnmagi.htm


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## KenV (Jan 30, 2011)

Deft Lacquer -- either in the can or in the spray can can give a great finish -- but slow curing.  The "dippers" use the can to dip parts in lacquer and allow it to cure.

Enduro acrylic varnish (Ernie at Beartooth Woods had it repackaged into smaller bottles last time I looked for it).  

Acrylic floor varnishes also give a nice base -- and can be polished 

There are other things people have used too.


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## Schtick (Jan 30, 2011)

How is the long term endurance on the Deft Lacquer or other alternatives?  Any of the Journeymen out there  have some background info.  I have had two CA pens come back after only 6 months,  clouding and cracking.  They looked absolutely perfect when they left my shop.  It is completely embarrassing.  If I give someone a pen for a gift at their daughter's birth, I want it to look that good at her wedding.


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## its_virgil (Jan 30, 2011)

Lacquer takes several weeks to totally cure before  it can be buffed. Several means two or more. I use Deft lacquer in the can and cut it 50-50 with lacquer thinner. I apply 10 coats using T-shirt material allowing the lacquer to dry between applications. I use very fine steel wool after layer 3 and again at 7 or 8. I use the steel wool very lightly. Lacquer is not a fast finish but it is a nice finish.

Russ Fairfeild shared the hardness of various finishes at the Utah Symposium last May. He used the pencil hardness test. In other words, the hardness is determined by the hardness of the lead it takes to scratch the finish. Here is what he told us and it is probably on his website or in the finishing dvd. Acrylics 9H, stabilized wood 8H, Enduro 7H,  CA glue 6H, Waterlox 4H, lacquer 3H, shellac 2H, wax H+, and bare wood H.

Do a good turn daily!
Don




Schtick said:


> How is the long term endurance on the Deft Lacquer or other alternatives?  Any of the Journeymen out there  have some background info.


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## DozerMite (Jan 30, 2011)

I have used poly with great success. If you don't have a spray gun, just buy the spray cans. You can apply several light coats in a short period and finish in 24 hrs.
Another alternative is a spray clear coat. It's available from several manufacturers at any place that carries paints.
I use automotive clear when using this method. Again, you will need a spray gun along with cat., reducer, etc.
The CA finish is probably one of the quickest finishes though.


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## holmqer (Jan 30, 2011)

Schtick said:


> How is the long term endurance on the Deft Lacquer or other alternatives?  Any of the Journeymen out there  have some background info.  I have had two CA pens come back after only 6 months,  clouding and cracking.  They looked absolutely perfect when they left my shop.  It is completely embarrassing.  If I give someone a pen for a gift at their daughter's birth, I want it to look that good at her wedding.



Keep in mind that there is a difference between short term hardness and long term endurance. Just because one finish is harder than another once fully cured does not mean that it has greater long term chemical stability. Some of the softer finishes like lacquer are very chemically stable. Some Japanese lacquer-ware is ancient. The finish on those pieces may not survive rough treatment, but do not decay over time. 

I don't know how the chemical stability of CA or harder finishes will play out over decades. 

Also consider that hardness can lead to brittleness, so CA may be more scratch resistant than Shellac, but it is also more prone to chipping when subject to shock. I don't know how prone to chipping Enduro or Acrylic are and whether any tendency to chip will get worse with time.


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## gallianp (Jan 30, 2011)

Enduro

There are several threads about enduro on this forum.

One is:

http://www.penturners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=74119&highlight=Enduro


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## thewishman (Jan 30, 2011)

Plexiglas is my finish of choice. I tried to link to a description in an old post, but it didn't work, so here is my procedure:



I take a few small pieces of plexiglas and dissolve it
in acetone. There are a couple of types of plexiglas,
my first batch melted into a glob but didn't dissolve.
The correct type will start to dissolve immediately
and will go into solution in a couple of days. I use a
mason jar to hold my solution. I got my plexi at Lowes
from their window department - I asked for cutoffs and
got a big piece for $1.00.

After the plexi is dissolved I pour it into a clear
condiment bottle (Wal-Mart $.79) and add a bit more
acetone until the solution is a bit thicker than thin
CA glue. You can experiment to get your ideal
viscosity, some people like the solution much thicker
than mine.

I sand my blanks to 400 grit and then remove all of
the dust from them. I lay newspaper across my lathe,
under the mandrel and set the lathe at 1800 rpm, I
also have a spacer bushing at each end of the mandrel.
I put a small bag from a pen kit and put it over my
index finger, fold a 1/2 paper towel to about 1/2 inch
wide. 

Put a couple of drops of solution on the paper towel
and run it under the spinning blanks. Start applying
just a little pressure on the bushing set before the
blank and make a smooth motion through the bushing at
the opposite end (the motion should take about as long
as it takes to say "motion.") Then put another drop on
the towel and go the opposite way, use enough solution
so that the towel is transferring the solution to the
blanks through the whole range. I put 25-30 coats on
in a couple of minutes (drip, slide, drip, slide) it
dries quickly enough that the time it takes to add a
drip is all the time you need to wait. (Thicker
solutions mean slower drying time.) 

After the coats have been applied, I let the lathe
spin for 2-3 minutes and then start wet sanding with
Micro Mesh. Be careful with the 1500 grit, with my
first few tries I removed most of the plexi with that
one. Just a few seconds with moderate pressure is
enough for each grit, and dry off the blank between
grits to remove the slurry. The MM work is done at the
same 1800 rpms. After some practice the whole
procedure from the first drop to removing the polished
blanks takes about 5 minutes.

I turn the lathe off and use a utility knife to score
the plexi just a bout 1/16 - 1/8 inch from the end of
the blank, be careful to do it lightly so you don't
cut into your bushings. I learned the hard way to
score, since the finish is built up on the bushings as
well as the blanks. I then remove the blanks and trim
any extra finish off the ends. I tilt the blanks at a
slight angle and rub the sharp edges on some high grit
sandpaper, 500+, to get rid of the sharpness.


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## dhammis (Jan 30, 2011)

Here's the respirator that I use.

http://www.homedepot.com/Paint-Pain...splay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053

It's got P100 filters on it.

Also, they only work if you are clean shaven.  If you have a beard or even some stubble you won't get a good seal and won't get the protection you need.

Prior to this I had fans running and could still smell the CA.  With this I don't smell a thing.


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## Dudley Young (Jan 30, 2011)

Your health is more important than pens. Just turn acrylic and you don't need the ca except glueing the tubes. You could use epoxy for that. All those sprays mentioned could do your lungs harm also.


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## galoot_loves_tools (Feb 1, 2011)

Frankly, I would skip the lacquer. I have had great success with dipping Enduro - the resulting finish is hard as a rock and can be polished to a high gloss - see this thread. I have finished pens overnight with a few hours of heat on a portable oil-filled radiator and been able to give them to the recipient the following day.


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## Daniel (Feb 1, 2011)

Another vote for Enduro. It is my "Other" finish for pens. Notice I didn't say Second. It is not second to CA in my book. There is a waiting period between the primer or filler coats and the finish coat. that is only annoying to me because I am used to being able to go straight through to a finished pen without stopping. I bit of a change in how I work and it is not nearly as much of an annoyance.
As for hardness and durability / and even usability. I have never heard any isues concerning Enduro in comparison to the nearly non top lsit of problems people ahve with CA from application, discoloring, clouding or other curing issues or eventual cracking. And jsut like CA is a layer of acrylic I believe Enduro is also.


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## KenV (Feb 1, 2011)

There have been great strides in waterborne finishes and Enduro was the best 5-6 years ago.  I still use it, but there are some other waterborne finishes that are very tough.

I had a gallon can of Varathane Floor Varnish that I used last week to finish some woodware for the weaver i live with -- based on the "hand cleaning index" that water borne varnish stuck to my skin tighter than enduro by far.   Will give it a try for pen finishes as it looked pretty good on the weaver's woodware.

Yup -- great finishes are still available other than CA


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## Kokopelli2010 (Feb 1, 2011)

There are spray mechanisms that can allow you to use a liquid from a can and pour some into the mechanism which comes with pressurized air/? and when you press down on the lever it propels the liquid like it was in an aerosol can. Check your local paint stores for such a product and no I am not speaking of a paint sprayer but a plastic mini version. Wish I could remember the name of the item though (sigh)

http://www.woodturningvideosplus.com/cyanoacrylates.html

Scroll about half way down for item I speak of...


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## galoot_loves_tools (Feb 1, 2011)

KenV said:


> There have been great strides in waterborne finishes and Enduro was the best 5-6 years ago.  I still use it, but there are some other waterborne finishes that are very tough.
> 
> I had a gallon can of Varathane Floor Varnish that I used last week to finish some woodware for the weaver i live with -- based on the "hand cleaning index" that water borne varnish stuck to my skin tighter than enduro by far.   Will give it a try for pen finishes as it looked pretty good on the weaver's woodware.
> 
> Yup -- great finishes are still available other than CA



Sounds intriguing! Unfortunately, it's roughly $50 a gallon around here.


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## galoot_loves_tools (Feb 1, 2011)

Daniel said:


> Another vote for Enduro. It is my "Other" finish for pens. Notice I didn't say Second. It is not second to CA in my book. There is a waiting period between the primer or filler coats and the finish coat. that is only annoying to me because I am used to being able to go straight through to a finished pen without stopping. I bit of a change in how I work and it is not nearly as much of an annoyance.
> As for hardness and durability / and even usability. I have never heard any isues concerning Enduro in comparison to the nearly non top lsit of problems people ahve with CA from application, discoloring, clouding or other curing issues or eventual cracking. And jsut like CA is a layer of acrylic I believe Enduro is also.



Enduro is a urethane based finish so it is chemically different from CA glue. It is also formulated to finish wood. I use SealCoat as a sealer and wait a couple of hours before dipping with Enduro. I recently read that the 'new' Enduro being sold at Woodcraft and online no longer needs sealer before application. It has an amber tint that is missing from the sample of Enduro I bought a couple of years ago. I will try this on some sanded scrap. If I get the same level of chatoyance, I may skip the SealCoat. 

My overall time spent standing at the lathe is reduced because there is little or no sanding involved, whereas I spent several minutes per pen sanding/polishing ridges in CA. My main criterion is whether or not I can start a pen and give it to the recipient the following day. I can do this with dipping Enduro so I have moved away from CA (except as a glue) entirely.


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## ctubbs (Feb 2, 2011)

Kokopelli2010 said:


> There are spray mechanisms that can allow you to use a liquid from a can and pour some into the mechanism which comes with pressurized air/? and when you press down on the lever it propels the liquid like it was in an aerosol can. Check your local paint stores for such a product and no I am not speaking of a paint sprayer but a plastic mini version. Wish I could remember the name of the item though (sigh)
> 
> http://www.woodturningvideosplus.com/cyanoacrylates.html
> 
> Scroll about half way down for item I speak of...



I just received from Manny two of the reusable spray cans, one 8 oz and a 16 oz one.  These may have been a special order or he may be stocking them now.  His link is:
http://woodenwonderstx.com/
Check it out.  That just be what you are looking for.
Charles


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