# Would you want a forum for critiquing pens?



## mredburn (Apr 25, 2012)

Mike Kennedy of Indy Pen Dance has put forth the Idea of a forum whose function would be, "any pen" placed in that forum is asking for honest harsh critiquing. Would it be useful? Would you be able to put a pen in it without having your feelings hurt. With that thought in mind it could have a permanent poll or rating for each submission
Say, just to get things started something like this.....

1-The pen sucks, do it over
2-That had better be the prototype
3-Not bad for a first pen at least the parts are flush.
4-Decent fit, fair design, needs tweaked
5-One of your better designs 
6-Very nice pen, great design and execution
7-Wow
8-Holy crap! 
9- I am not worthy to judge your pens
10 "All hail"the mighty "Pen Smith" maker of fine art and writing instruments extraordinaire!

All kidding aside Mike was right when he said that honest criticism is what helps us to make pens that are worthy of production. Both those that are assembling component pens and those that are on the kit-less journey. Whether just starting out replacing small parts like trim rings and center bands or totally designing and making all the parts they can.

Your opinions are welcome!


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## seamus7227 (Apr 25, 2012)

BRING IT!!!! Criticism only makes me strive to work harder and make better stuff!


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## Buzzzz4 (Apr 25, 2012)

I would be all for it.


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## Andrew_K99 (Apr 25, 2012)

If this were put in place I'd bet that SOYP's would quickly grind to a halt.

I think most people want comments and critique (though maybe not really harsh critique) on their pens in SOYP's.

I think the poster should be open to honest feedback if they are posting in SOYP's. If they want their pen ripped apart per se then they should note that.

So, IMO, I don't think a new subforum is required.


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## MarkD (Apr 25, 2012)

I think it's a great idea. SOYP is a great place to show the pens you are proud of, but when your learning or trying new ides/concepts there are times when you want honest opinions, critiques and possible criticism. Seamus is right that criticism makes us strive to work harder and make better stuff.


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## ghostrider (Apr 25, 2012)

I like hearing constructive critiques on what I've done. Sometimes I know about a problem, then other times someone might point out something that may give me a different perspective. 

I like the idea of that type of forum. Some of the better gains I've made have been based not just on some of the ccomments here, but also from some of those people who offered to help me with their insight and experience. If not for those people, I'd probably still be struggling with a CA finish. 

The nice thing about a forum like that is that it's voluntary, and while there is already a SOYP forum, people who want an honest assessment of their work could post in the new one.


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## Justturnin (Apr 25, 2012)

I think that is SOYP should be already.  To be honest there are times I don't comment in there because 10 people already said great job, looks great but when I look I see the F&F are off or the finish goes flat in some spots and I don't want to offend.  If it is necessary for this to be a different forum that is the only place I would post because even though I am proud there is always room for improvement and if no one tells me I never grow.


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## Andrew_K99 (Apr 25, 2012)

Justturnin said:


> I think that is SOYP should be already. To be honest there are times I don't comment in there because 10 people already said great job, looks great but when I look I see the F&F are off or the finish goes flat in some spots and I don't want to offend. If it is necessary for this to be a different forum that is the only place I would post because even though I am proud there is always room for improvement and if no one tells me I never grow.


 This is one thing that frustrates me!

If you tell someone it is adequate enough times they'll never strive for better.  I don't want to hurt anyones feelings but a great pen doesn't have sanding marks or a poor fit and finish.  This is one reason I don't often comment on pens in SOYP's unless they really stand out.

AK


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## BRobbins629 (Apr 25, 2012)

Once upon a time this did exist on IAP.  Maybe now is different, but it was soon closed.  This was just before the time I joined so while I did read some of the posts, the forum had already closed.  Maybe Jeff or one of the old timers can chime in.


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## OKLAHOMAN (Apr 25, 2012)

Not a bad idea but we need to remember a few years ago we had a critique forum and it got out of hand so it was discontinued. Have we grown up enough to handle honest critiques with out being offended? I do agree that the SOYP forum is nothing but a place where most are afraid to critique and don't want to offend, but a critique forum would be a place that the original poster is expecting honest critiques and the posters would /should have no reservations in their posting as long as it's done in a civil manner to help not just criticize. Point out what you think could be improved, not just something like "I just don't like it". This is what closed the critque forum in the first place , it turned into a bashing forum not a helpful critique forum.


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## IPD_Mr (Apr 25, 2012)

Justturnin said:


> I don't want to offend.


 
This is why a separate forum is needed.  It basically says "I want people to be honest and tell me how you really feel".  It is not meant for someone to just say "wow that sucks", it is meant to give constructive criticism.  Things like you are out of round or the plating and the blank clash or you need to work on your threading ect....  Pen-makers will be much more critical than a family member or co-worker and that can help.

Look the MODs have enough to do and don't need to babysit a forum that has the potential to get out of hand.  I fully understand why they would be opposed to the idea.  I would hope that people would find this idea as a tool to help progress their talents.  Maybe this is something that we could put on a trial basis.  Oh and a 2" x 3" dark photo of a pen laying on a kitchen counter could not be used, you just can't see the detail to give any feedback.


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## edicehouse (Apr 25, 2012)

The biggest problem is a lot of the people that make the real high end do not often post theirs.  Is it fear of being imitated, ect.  (Not taking anything away from the ones posted), but when is the last time you posted a pen?


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## Justturnin (Apr 25, 2012)

OKLAHOMAN said:


> Not a bad idea but we need to remember a few years ago we had a critique forum and it got out of hand so it was discontinued. Have we grown up enough to handle honest critiques with out being offended? I do agree that the SOYP forum is nothing but a place where most are afraid to critique and don't want to offend, but a critique forum would be a place that the original poster is expecting honest critiques and the posters would /should have no reservations in their posting as long as it's done in a civil manner to help not just criticize. Point out what you think could be improved, not just something like "I just don't like it". This is what closed the critque forum in the first place , it turned into a bashing forum not a helpful critique forum.



I totally agree.  I would hope no one would post a comment just to be ugly and a critique should also come with advise.

(i.e.) It appears to be out of round, you may want to check you Mandrel and make sure its not bent, or It seems to be slightly proud of the components, do you use Calipers to measure or do you go by the bushings?

Never should we see, 'That looks like crap, you have a lot to learn'.


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## Russianwolf (Apr 25, 2012)

my philosophy is if you don't want it critiqued, don't post it in SOYP. Post a crap pen in there and if I see it, I'll tell you. I expect the same when I post a pen.

In fact I just left a comment on one. Nice enough pen, but I explained why I didn't particularly like it. The poster may ignore my comment because they disagree with it, but at least they've heard the perspective now.


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## edicehouse (Apr 25, 2012)

I see some that are good fit, good finish, blank matches the kit, ect.  But just don't like the blank.   I often don't put a comment on it, because I don't want to offend.  I have started to see more of what others will like, eventhough I don't like it.


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## OKLAHOMAN (Apr 25, 2012)

Mike, while I agree with you that it would be of a help and it SHOULD not become a bash forum inevitability it will become just that as all we need is a very small contingent of members to dissagree on a critique and as the saying goes "the fight is on"..





IPD_Mr said:


> Justturnin said:
> 
> 
> > I don't want to offend.
> ...


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## mredburn (Apr 25, 2012)

edicehouse said:


> The biggest problem is a lot of the people that make the real high end do not often post theirs. Is it fear of being imitated, ect. (Not taking anything away from the ones posted), but when is the last time you posted a pen?





Whom are you asking?


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## OKLAHOMAN (Apr 25, 2012)

To me thats the problem, as that would not be a critique but an opinion on the blank. not on how  it would improve the posters craft and if others liked the blank then as said the fight begins... 





edicehouse said:


> I see some that are good fit, good finish, blank matches the kit, ect. But just don't like the blank. I often don't put a comment on it, because I don't want to offend. I have started to see more of what others will like, eventhough I don't like it.


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## JamesB (Apr 25, 2012)

Bear in mind that I'm new, have not posted a pen, and leave "nice job" comments in SOYP frequently. Probably do that because the pens are better than mine, and if I can't do it better, I'm not going to say that pen sucks. Other members have that opportunity but not me (not right now, at least)
If this is done, I think the delete button should be available to the original poster so after an acceptable amount of feedback is given, the post can be deleted if desired. 
For instance: If I go to local meeting with a crappy pen, I would accept honest feedback while at the meeting and ask for more than one opinion but I wouldn't want to leave it in a display case with a notebook so everyone who sees it afterwards can keep telling me that it sucks. Either a delete button or a time frame of 5-7 days or whatever since I think critiques are most valuable to the pen maker not casual observers and when they are made in a timely manner, not 6 or more months later. 
And a delete button will keep the forum from filling up with thousands of posts.
That's my 0.02 cents.


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## maxwell_smart007 (Apr 25, 2012)

I'm not opposed to the idea in principle, as most of us generally would like to hear feedback on our pens - but I don't really see the need for a separate sub-forum that mimics the current one. 

If someone wants honest feedback, it's quite easy to ask for it in SOYP, isn't it?  Simply saying 'give me honest feedback' or 'do you think this pen blank and hardware clash?' is enough, I'd think, and eliminates the concerns that Roy brought up.  

Do we need another sub-forum to do essentially what SOYP can do with a simple question?


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## penhead (Apr 25, 2012)

Well, I have been around the forum a little while, haven't posted a pen in quite a while for many reasons...most obvious being that i haven't made any. However, i need to make a number of pens in the very near future. While the SOYP forum is great to post pens for everyone to see...I would vote for a seperate forum that would be for those wishing a more detailed inspection and opinions on how to improve...HOWEVER, if another forum should be created for that purpose...IMHO...there should be a way for the poster of the pen to remain anonymous, at least for a while. That way, the critique could truly be of the craftsmanship of the pen, and nothing else.


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## jd99 (Apr 25, 2012)

I've seen this tried on other forums, and it ultimately turns into a big flame thread.

Also as posted above, it going to turn into a gold vs chrome with that blank, or color, or that band is the wrong color, or CA vs friction finish, etc etc..

Not everyone likes the same thing or colors, or combination of colors. I make pens all the time, that I don't care for the matching of or the colors (thats why I have other people help me pick combos all the time, "it's not about what I like"), but others love them. As the old saying goes "be kind of boring if we all liked the same thing"

My point is if it would be something that would be just on the construction, fit, or finish, or mechnical features, it might be good.

But it will never stay that way, and as said above, who wants to hear from 200 people that "The pen looks out of round" "you should turn more off the body" "that color combo is all wrong" etc. If the comment has been made the other 199 don't need to repeate it.

It's an OK idea but I don't think it will work, my two cents worth.

I know I am my worst critic, I haven't made a pen yet that I'm 100% happy with, Just at that makes me strive to get better each time I make one. :wink:


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## Haynie (Apr 25, 2012)

Sure.  Critique forums can get pretty ugly though.


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## maxwell_smart007 (Apr 25, 2012)

I know that there was a critique forum here before I joined up.  It has since been deleted.   

There's likely a very good reason why it's no longer here - just my two cents!


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## mredburn (Apr 25, 2012)

THe like button could be used to reaffirm a comment on a pen postitive or critical,  rather than 20 repeats. It amounts to the same thing just less posts to wade through.


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## mredburn (Apr 25, 2012)

Actually Andrew I thought you could be Moderator/Dictator in chief of this particualr forum. If they dont play nice you get to send em to the corner for time out.:biggrin:


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## penmaker1967 (Apr 25, 2012)

i like the idea i am always looking for ways to get better on my pen turning


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## BSea (Apr 25, 2012)

I personally have benefited from honest critiques of my pens. And I really don't think a separate forum is needed.  Maybe a CC in the title for comments & critiques welcome would be enough. Like *"My1st Kitless - CC"* for the title.

From now on, I'll be asking for honest critiques of my work.


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## 1080Wayne (Apr 25, 2012)

maxwell_smart007 said:


> If someone wants honest feedback, it's quite easy to ask for it in SOYP, isn't it?  Simply saying 'give me honest feedback' or 'do you think this pen blank and hardware clash?' is enough, I'd think, and eliminates the concerns that Roy brought up.
> 
> Do we need another sub-forum to do essentially what SOYP can do with a simple question?




I agree with this . Those are just about the only ones that I will comment upon . I see too many `good job` posts on pens that aren`t good , probably sincerely made by someone at the apprentice level . The only way around that problem is to limit criticisms to a pre-determined panel of experts , similar to a peer review panel for a technical journal . 

Also , as mentioned above , photo quality is an essential element to an effective critiquing process . Not all of us who are competent on fit and finish , are on photography .


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## Xander (Apr 25, 2012)

ok, haven't read every reply here but thought I'd jump in.

1)I think SOYP is a place to say.. "Hey look at this pen, I think it's GREAT". Hence the 'show off' title. I know people say 'all comments welcome'.... but do they mean ALL comments??

2) A critique forum should be more..."Hey guys, need feedback, how did I do?"

3)Being strickly voluntary it's the posters choice of where to post. If someone does not like the responses they know better for next time and can post elsewhere.

4)With a set 'POLL' as was given the example in the OP, (ie 1-10) it stops the random comments of "Geeze that pens sucks big time - what were you thinking". But, the replies should have a reason WHY you picked option 3, or 5, ... what makes the pen only so-so or stand out above the rest.

5) As has been mentioned, photo quality comes into play. Perhaps there should be a set photo size and maybe even composition guidelines. Keep it simple.


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## jd99 (Apr 25, 2012)

OK what about this; those that want some critiquing do as stated above ask for it in the subject line or some other method, but lets take it a step further, and maybe offer some advice on how to fix what you see wrong, or what you do.

e.g.

It looks like your fit at the nib and final are a little proud. 
What I do is I under cut the blank a little bit in those areas, so when I apply my CA it builds it back up to the correct size for a better fit.


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## LL Woodworks (Apr 25, 2012)

What I like about the IAP forum(s) is the encouragement and support that most of the members provide to novice, intermediate and even advanced pen makers, new members and the sort. I wouldn't think the moderators would want to do anything that would be detrimental to the existing IAP format.  I see the proposed forum as possibly being exactly that.  We (IAP members) most certainly do not want to become, or become known as a bunch of "snooty", "better than thou" pen makers that intimidate. With all due respect -  "If it ain't broke, don't fix it".


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## Xander (Apr 25, 2012)

could a forum be set up where any member can vote in the poll, but only certain people can leave comments?

So..... comments would come from more experienced people who are known to be honest and not just bash something or give false praise.

I know, this leads to the question... Who is going to get the job? And would they want to do it?

Just an idea. I'll go away now.


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## Chasper (Apr 25, 2012)

No thanks, I would not be interested in a critiquing forum.  

I'm not interested in SYOP either, I never go there.


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## ttpenman (Apr 25, 2012)

I agree the the SOYP forum should be enough and anyone who asks for a real critique should accept what is said.  And, as others have said, I would hope no one here would put anyone down, just give an honest opinion.

One issue I see with making honest opinions is the variation in the quality of photos provided.  I know mine aren't the best and some are worse than mine.  Hard to see critical things on a pen when you don't have a quality image to work from.

I don't post many pens for a couple reasons.  One, I'm not looking for a bunch of 'nice pen' or 'good job'.  Second, while I believe I make a fairly decent pen, when I see the amazing pens quite a few of you make, I feel like a hack!!

Just my 2 cents and maybe not worth that.

Jeff in northern Wisconsin


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## HoratioHornblower (Apr 25, 2012)

I was for the idea at the start, but I now have changed my mind for this reason. I know that I and many other honest members on here would not mindlessly and heartlessly bash others pens, but I have been through some of the older posts and some people do not have that as a standard. They are ok with being brutal in a very unhelpful way. I think that peoples beliefs vary too much, so in the end it could get nasty and counterproductive. I agree with Andrew that asking for HONEST CC in SYOP should be enough as long as everyone remembers what that means. I post in SYOP sometimes hoping for some helpful feedback, and there have been times where I have received it, but I would still like more. I make a mistake and think "Can anyone else see this?" and "Is it a big deal?" I don't think anyone wants to make what they consider a crappy pen and I would like to know when my pen is crappy and unsellable. But at the same time I don't want my skill level to be bashed or my intelligence to be undercut. I think the answer is to keep the SYOP only  and ask for honest feedback. I had some honest feedback from Eric about one of his pinecone blanks, and because of that I changed the way I glue up for cast pens, which has in turn really improved the outcome. If I don't like it, I take it into consideration and mull over how I can improve on it. Anyway, my 2 cents.
 
David


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## JamesB (Apr 25, 2012)

LL Woodworks said:


> What I like about the IAP forum(s) is the encouragement and support that most of the members provide to novice, intermediate and even advanced pen makers, new members and the sort. I wouldn't think the moderators would want to do anything that would be detrimental to the existing IAP format. I see the proposed forum as possibly being exactly that. We (IAP members) most certainly do not want to become, or become known as a bunch of "snooty", "better than thou" pen makers that intimidate. With all due respect - "If it ain't broke, don't fix it".


 
The more I think about it, the more I agree with Lynn.  The SOYP should be good enough.  Maybe the SOYP should be renamed.


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## 76winger (Apr 25, 2012)

I've "liked" several responses to this and am having a hard time thinking of what to say that hasn't already been said, but I'll try.

I think a separate forum for (and maybe titled) Critical Reviews could have its place. For instance I've posted several pens in SOYP and invited comments and critiques, with only minimal responses and usually all positive. I'm happy with those, but would also welcome responses pointing out radial marks that maybe I missed, or components not matching up, or like one I recently seen posted where I noticed someone posted several pen photos, and one didn't even have the nib screwed in all the way, yet I didn't feel it appropriate to point that out in SOYP because opinions weren't asked for. 

So I think a separate forum, where tougher critiques are not only welcome, but expected could be of benefit. But everyone needs to have this same expectation going into it and comments need to be directed as constructive criticism for the purpose of the poster improving his craft and product. And as stated the "I don't like it", "That looks like crap" kind of comments would not be helpful or welcomed. Kind of like a book I recently read that discussed taking a problem to you manager. The author stated he would not accept anyone bringing in a problem to him unless that person had one or two solutions to the problem to offer as well. If someone is going to make a negative comment about my posting, I would greatly appreciate a suggestion on how to make correction. 

Maybe the above could be a good guideline for a forum of this type. If you're going to point out a flaw or design issue, you have to state how you think it could be improved upon...

Then there's issue of providing decent enough photos of you pen to warrant good and honest reviews. Some people can make great pens, but take lousy photos. And it would be hard to provide honest critiques on a pen if the photos are out of focus, or the white balance is so far off that chrome looks like gold and so on. There's a lot of those kinds of photos in SOYP and it's sometimes hard to even make a good comment on them because you really don't have a good representation of what the pen looks like. So a forum for critiquing pen should also have some minimum requirements of being in focus and correct color balance just so honest opinions can be offered. Otherwise they my need to visit the Pen Photography forum first, for some pointers before posting for critiques.

OK, I've said enough (and lunch time is over)


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## Carl Fisher (Apr 25, 2012)

I've posted quite a bit in SOYP since I started turning.  Partly because I like to look at and show off my growth but typically because I like getting feedback that helps me continue to grow as a craftsman or ultimately one who strives to obtain artist level years down the road.

Unfortunately most of the comments that are offered in the SOYP are just "nice job" or similar with only a few critical comments.  The critical comments are those that help us improve as other see what we are blind to sometimes.  It's like when I create programming code at work.  I look at something so long that I grow numb to what I'm seeing and it takes a separate set of eyes to point out something that should have been obvious to me, or sometimes a better way to accomplish a task.  

If you can't take the critique, don't ask for it or don't post to a critique forum.  I personally think it's one of the best ways to grow.


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## JoeOCNJ (Apr 25, 2012)

I don't understand why the critique would get out of hand.. I mean if I posted a pic in there of something I worked on, I would want you all to pick it apart.... down to the photography of the pen..   I sell my pens, and I want to make sure people get what they pay for.  If you post in the critique for advice you should EXPECT negative comments as well as positive ones.  

I used to do photography as a hobby and found an awesome website that was similar to this one.  You posted in critique, that's exactly what you got.  That's not saying, if you liked a picture you posted, and several people picked out the smallest details of what could be better or different.. Doesn't mean your left with a bad picture.. YOU still like it   It just plants seeds in your head for what can be done different next time. 

Now.. if it gets downright rude.. that's a different story.. Then I don't see it working.. If you told me that it seems my fit is slightly off, try A, B or C, next time I'd be fine with that, but if you say "you must be blind as a bat clearly that fit is off by .03 millimeters, your an idiot, go plant a garden and use your pens as plant markers"... yeah that may be too abrasive 

Just my $.02  I look forward to it if it comes about.


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## nativewooder (Apr 25, 2012)

My two cents is that Constructive critiques have their place but harsh critiques have no place at all.


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## BSea (Apr 25, 2012)

76winger said:


> If you're going to point out a flaw or design issue, you have to state how you think it could be improved upon...


I agree.  I really dislike the post that say "I don't like the shape".  If there are critical remarks that offer alternatives, then that's a different story. 

While I don't see the need for a separate forum for this, if one is created, then that's where I'll post my work.


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## booney0717 (Apr 25, 2012)

Love the idea! I realy dont care if somebody does'nt like one of my pens as long as they are willing to tell me why! Thats the reason i post in the show off your pens forum. I'm new to pen turning and welcome everyones comments(good or bad). Thats the only way a newbie like me will improve.


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## Carl Fisher (Apr 25, 2012)

Ok, just to test out the concept of asking for honest critique, I threw up a pen from a few months back to see how it goes.  I have some critiques of my own against it but want to see how the population at large offers their input.


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## peregrinerose (Apr 25, 2012)

I don't post in the 'show off your pens' because I know it's just going to be a lot of fluff and 'good jobs', which is great for my ego, but otherwise has no productive value.  I'd rather spend my time working on more pens than uploading pics.  If there was a true critique forum, THAT I would definitely upload to.  I'm here to learn to be better at woodworking in general, not just pens/turning, as I'm also working on a cabinetry degree.  I learn the most from the criticisms, especially when combined with some options on how to solve the problem.


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## Andrew_K99 (Apr 25, 2012)

BSea said:


> 76winger said:
> 
> 
> > If you're going to point out a flaw or design issue, you have to state how you think it could be improved upon...
> ...


The problem with shape (or colour combinations) is that there is no right awswer. I really dislike slims that have the shrunken waist line but there are lots of people making them so obvious it's just my preference. I also don't like gold as the primary component colour but tons of those are made.

If this sub-forum were to open comments should be limited to fit and finish and quality of the pen not design choices unless we want to open that can of worms.


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## Gilrock (Apr 25, 2012)

Is that why I don't get many responses in SYOP?  I didn't know I had to ask for comments. :biggrin:

I just assume my pen sucks if only 3 people say anything.  The pen I have in my profile photo is my favorite pen of everything I've made and I got the least amount of feedback for it.  So I ended up not posting much there anymore.  To be honest it seems like certain people always get more feedback than others...I've often thought I'd like to do a test where I mail a pen to one of the popular posters and see how many responses there would be if they posted the photo instead of me.


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## Andrew_K99 (Apr 25, 2012)

Gilrock said:


> Is that why I don't get many responses in SYOP? I didn't know I had to ask for comments. :biggrin:
> 
> I just assume my pen sucks if only 3 people say anything. The pen I have in my profile photo is my favorite pen of everything I've made and I got the least amount of feedback for it. So I ended up not posting much there anymore. To be honest it seems like certain people always get more feedback than others...I've often thought I'd like to do a test where I mail a pen to one of the popular posters and see how many responses there would be if they posted the photo instead of me.


 I've had the same thought ... maybe some people only check out the pens of 'popular' members and ignore the others?


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## mredburn (Apr 25, 2012)

Gil  Some members wont criticize your work unless asked in the posting. One of those " if you cant say anything nice" type of deals. We have had members state that they don't want their work picked apart they just want to share it as it is.   As you post comments in other members posts they tend to return the favor as they get to know you and recognize your name. So some of the popular members are the ones that offered favorable comments on other members pens first.


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## Gilrock (Apr 25, 2012)

I just noticed noticed I couldn't even spell SOYP right....lol.

I'm not in favor of a new forum section because I already have trouble keeping up with all the sub forum sections.  I normally don't frequent this forum much unless an interesting topic name shows up in the recent list.  I only knew this thread was here because it was mentioned in SOYP.

I've tended to not have as much time to respond to pens I see posted so I've tried to at least add my name to the "Like" list to let the poster know I viewed the pen and liked it if I don't think I had anything meaningful to say other than "Nice pen".

I've also seen pens I didn't like and have abstained from responding because I thought it was more of my personal taste.  Most of the time my complaints would be when I see pens I think are too fat.  I don't like what I call "pregnant" pens.  I saw one recently that was a Sierra style and if it's too fat the curve doesn't seem to flow into the pen kit right to me.  But I don't like coming off like I make too many negative comments so I've been quiet in that area lately.


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## jasontg99 (Apr 25, 2012)

YES!!!  I think it is a great idea to have this and a separate SOYP.


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## jasontg99 (Apr 25, 2012)

penhead said:


> IMHO...there should be a way for the poster of the pen to remain anonymous, at least for a while. That way, the critique could truly be of the craftsmanship of the pen, and nothing else.



Awesome idea, John.  This would even the playing field.


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## Mapster (Apr 25, 2012)

I agree with Oklahoman, but I feel if we had a forum it would work out well because only those who are looking for the bad and the ugly will post there. The people who are still looking for the pat on the back good can still go to SOYP...

I think it is a great idea! I also believe it would be useful if we could somehow monitor it though, much like the marketplace is now. If someone is abusing it, I believe we should be able to ban the person from the forum (if that is possible). Then all of us could get on with our honest critiques and we could all learn from it. The few that cause problems shouldn't be able to ruin it for all of us! I think we would all benefit from the forum


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## jeff (Apr 25, 2012)

Sorry to be late to the party here!

We had a critiques forum in 2005 for about 6 months. I opened it after a discussion much like this one:biggrin:

Some may recall that it closed after some particularly nasty arguments.

That said, I'm not opposed to trying again if we could get a volunteer to write a good set of guidelines and help keep house.


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## maxwell_smart007 (Apr 25, 2012)

I hope that a new section wouldn't then dissuade people from posting pens at all, for fear of choosing between the 'pat on the back' section vs. the 'harsh comments' section.  

Personally, I that any new section will essentially just replace SOYP, for how many will want to admit that they want positive reinforcement by posting a pen in there?


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## Chrisjan (Apr 25, 2012)

I quickly read through most of the posts and would like to put my conclusions, opinions and requirements out to you.(remember I'm a brand new member and new pen turner);

1) I discovered IAP through image searches on Google - I wanted to be inspired! SOYP did just that. It opened a world of possibilities in my mind...

2) I came back to read the posts to gain knowledge - I wanted to investigate and explore. I got hold of some acrylics, I tried ca as a finish and failed horribly.

4) I registered as a member in order to post questions - I wanted advice... and that's the value of the forums discussions and opinions ... and the encouragement to try.

5) I will start posting pictures to get critique from the experienced - I want to improve my methods and products. I'm sure as hell not gonna entertain a fellow newby flaming my choice of hard woods or castings or any other design factor if his work looks like crap!

With those points made, I ask that you keep SOYP to have good craftsmen show of their prize workmanship - it inspires other more than the pat on the back does in encouragement for the poster anyhow.

But I would like the option to submit my work to master craftsman for critique. Someone whose been around the bend of the mandrel, someone who earned the right to comment on how $#!tty I apply the ca and not properly polish off the radial sanding marks - because my friends here at home gives the encouragement, they don't know of any better!

*Conclusion:* Both *SOYP *and *Critique Board* have a place,  everybody can post in SOYP and then we encourage and inspire, but can the master craftsmen comment critically on specifically submitted pens for the sake of improvement... the people who've been around and demonstrated workmanship can mentor us aspiring artisans... please?


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## mredburn (Apr 25, 2012)

As I think this over I conclude that there is both a place for SOYP and A Critical Review Forum. A pen could be posted into both forums for different reasons. I don't think that the Soyp forum would fail. Many of us post there with "questions and Comments welcome" as well as the "see my pretty pen" and still would. The Critical Review Forum could prove a useful tool if, and that may be the big " IF". We police ourselves for honest, sometimes blunt remarks, without being inflammatory, insulting or a personal attack. The guide lines can be written and enforced but I don't see a way to keep personal opinions out of the area of Design critique. Color combinations, dimensions, and shapes all come under personal preferences and they need to be allowed to be stated. Its easy to submit a critique that is about a technical or fit or measurable mistake and then submit a solution to that problem. But design issues are just as critical as any other mistake made and can fail a pen just as fast, both for acceptance by both the pen community and the general purchasing public.  Personal preferences in a critique, "I don't like  fat pens"  would have to be taken by the original poster with a "grain of salt" Understanding that every one has a personal opinion somewhere.  I would be willing to work with others to develop rules and code of conduct and helping to keep an eye on it.  Im sure there are others as well


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## Padre (Apr 25, 2012)

There was one, now there isn't. Albert Einstein once said "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."


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## 76winger (Apr 25, 2012)

Well I'm still a relative newbie compared to many on these forums, but here's my shot at some guidelines:

I would like think that *SOYP* could remain pretty much as it currently is: 
A place to show off your pen making handiwork and craftsmanship for the purpose of inspiring other members, new and experienced alike. 
Any pen of any level can be posted there, whether it's the first pen you've ever made using a Bic refill stuck in a twig to the most elaborate multi-segmented, self-cast, kitless that took years to perfect. It's all about showing off what you do and inspiring others to reach higher, without fear of being flamed, yet open to criticism and opinions if you ask for it.

​The new *Critique Submissions* section, or whatever it would be called, would be a place to post your work for evaluation and honest constructive comments. 



I don't think a rating system would apply so much and shouldn't be used. 
I would like to see higher resolution photos (say double or triple current restrictions) allowed in order for reviewers to see the details and be empowered to offer more accurate evaluations.
About any pen making level should be allowed here as well, so long as its understood that the posting is for the purpose of receiving critical evaluations of their work, along with suggestions of ways that will help get them to the next level in their pen making. 
It should be made clear to the poster that although some comments might be seem harsh, they've been given with concern towards teaching him or her how to improve upon what they've already accomplished and striving for continued improvement.
It should be made clear to the those commenting on the submission are expected to give honest, specific criticism, and offer suggestions for ways to improve upon what they cited. This could even grow to include several people spotting the same issue, but having different solutions, which would give the Original Poster options to try and find which works best for them. 

Opinions on shape and artistic flair, I think, should be discussed at some level, especially if it goes so far as to hinder the ability to actually use the pen as a writing instrument. But if the comment sounds like a feeling or opinion, with no critical benefit to how the poster can improve upon what they've made, then it should not enter the conversation. 
These are postings from people with a desire to improve their craft, not to create arguments.


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## Dalecamino (Apr 25, 2012)

What qualifications are required, to be a critic? Who are the critics? Anyone? I know a few, personally, and trust their judgment. How many posts would you read that say....the shape of the nose cone should be narrower...?  Just asking!

I would probably participate if Mike Redburn would run it :biggrin::biggrin::tongue:


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## RetiredJake (Apr 25, 2012)

If the comments are truly constructive criticism, then this would be great. The moderators could cutout the catty comments.


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## kruzzer (Apr 25, 2012)

How about being restricted to only a rating system?  Say 1 - 5 where 1 is great I'd buy it to 
5 scrap it and re-do.  Then you could leave it to the originator to PM the critiquer to discuss.
This way the moderators won't have to spend too much time monitoring???


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## Katya (Apr 25, 2012)

I'm a novice turner, but have been lurking here for a long while<g>.  I've been turning for just over a year and am still doing kit pens.  I'd like to add my $0.02 worth.  I check out the SOYP daily, as it's been very inspiring and has helped me learn about pen-making in all areas.

I understand why some would be reluctant to give negative critiques in that forum.. and I think the need for another sub forum would do the job nicely.  Its name should reflect its purpose- Critique Corner, Black board, Critical review, etc. I'd like to be able to post a pen and get comments about the shape as well as the fit & finish.  That serves a purpose that is distinct from SOYP.  

But I also think the group could also come up with some guidelines as have been mentioned here, about personal preference, rude comments and the like.  I look forward to using this new forum to really work on improving my pen-making skills.

Thanks,
Catherine


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## 76winger (Apr 25, 2012)

kruzzer said:


> How about being restricted to only a rating system?  Say 1 - 5 where 1 is great I'd buy it to
> 5 scrap it and re-do.  Then you could leave it to the originator to PM the critiquer to discuss.
> This way the moderators won't have to spend too much time monitoring???



I think the down side of a rating system is that you couldn't effectively list all the possibilities of what might need commented on. 

Plus people would be quick to click a button to vote on a quick response and not take the time to offer suggestions for improvement. And the discussion in open is beneficial to all, so everyone learns from the forum whether they post anything or not. There's a lot of people who lurk and read, and learn from that, without really getting involved in the conversations and postings.


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## chriselle (Apr 25, 2012)

I'd be down with it.  But, there is no point of reference to how you would critique.  I would critique a novice turners pen a lot different than I would an expert.  

Maybe a "submitted as ________.".... where you fill in novice, intermediate or expert so we have some boundaries to "judge".... I mean critique:wink: by.


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## WWAtty (Apr 25, 2012)

76winger said:


> kruzzer said:
> 
> 
> > How about being restricted to only a rating system?  Say 1 - 5 where 1 is great I'd buy it to
> ...



One of my favorite sites (when I'm not here) is beeradvocate.com, where users give craft brews 1-5 ratings on appearance, smell, taste, etc.  We could do something similar and have categories like finish, fit, style, color coordination, etc.  Perhaps include a box for a few constructive comments.


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## Texatdurango (Apr 25, 2012)

I don't think the forum would work!  Why, because people just can not take criticism... period!  Just look at some of the comments in the SOYP forum, if it's not the standard "nice pen, great job", "WOW" or "I'm years away from that type of work" and someone actually tries to offer some honest critiquing, the author quite often goes out of his way explaining or *defending* his reasons for doing what he did.  So did the critique help or just upset the author?

It is this defensive nature that will cause a lot of feelings to get hurt, especially with some of the newer turners who crank out what they feel is a masterpiece, complete with their "oops" bands when someone tells them what they really think of the pen.

Just my opinion.


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## Texatdurango (Apr 25, 2012)

jeff said:


> Sorry to be late to the party here!
> 
> We had a critiques forum in 2005 for about 6 months. I opened it after a discussion much like this one:biggrin:
> 
> ...



Jeff, did you catch Padre's post a few down from yours?




Padre said:


> There was one, now there isn't. Albert Einstein  once said "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and  over again and expecting different results."


Probably the most insightful post in the entire thread!


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## 76winger (Apr 25, 2012)

Texatdurango said:


> I don't think the forum would work!  Why, because people just can not take criticism... period!  Just look at some of the comments *in the SOYP forum, if it's not the standard "nice pen, great job", "WOW" or "I'm years away from that type of work" and someone actually tries to offer some honest critiquing, the author quite often goes out of his way explaining or defending his reasons for doing what he did.*  So did the critique help or just upset the author?
> 
> It is this defensive nature that will cause a lot of feelings to get hurt, especially with some of the newer turners who crank out what they feel is a masterpiece, complete with their "oops" bands when someone tells them what they really think of the pen.
> 
> Just my opinion.



See, this is exactly WHY I believe it WOULD be beneficial. 

*SOYP* is for showing off, and inspiring others. Veterans can inspire newbies and newbies will sometimes inspire veterans, and all variations in between. It's good for everyone generally. 
*
Pen Critiques* would be for just that: honest constructive criticism. But enter with a thick skin and stay out if you get your feelings hurt easily as it's not for those who want to fool themselves into thinking they've made the perfect pen. Our works are progress, not perfection. And this would need to be clearly indicated in the forum description or rules. 




			
				Texatdurango said:
			
		

> Jeff, did you catch Padre's post a few down from yours?
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Padre*
> 
> ...


Dave Ramsey regulaly quotes the 12-steppers as saying this as well. Maybe that's where they got it!


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## Jgrden (Apr 25, 2012)

I think this is a great idea. A *IAP rating. *
The judges need some credibility. The criteria needs to be clear (tolerances, finish, difficulty, caagory [clay, wood, metal, bone, etc.] craftsmanship) and it needs to be more than one person. The webmasters need to set up a way for the judges to communicate. The decision should be quick. Saying this, my work would be lucky to get a 1 out of 10 rating. To start things off we should all be involved in picking the judges. This will in itself be a long process. Perhaps the existing moderators could assist with this.  IMHO


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## StephenM (Apr 25, 2012)

I come from a design background and in school, critique was part of the program to help you develop as a designer.  Without good input, it's difficult to grow.  That said, it should be limited to constructive criticism - insults and ridicule have no place and should be dealt with quickly.  If all someone can offer are insults and ridicule it is either jealousy or ignorance.  

If at all possible, when you give criticism, make it constructive - "Your segmented pen has some tearout at the joints - are you keeping your tools sharp and sharpening again as needed while turning?"  Instead of " Nice pen but I see tearout at the joints".

There are a quite a few friends on here so there will be the occasional friendly poke but make it plain that you know them and it's just in fun so somebody else doesn't jump to the wrong conclusion, try to defend them and end up making a mountain out of a molehill.


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## its_virgil (Apr 25, 2012)

We tried it once several years ago and it was a bust. It didn't last. It didn't work!! Feelings were hurt. Why go there again? Critiquing an object from a picture is difficult at best. Fit and finish are difficult to acertain from a picture. (can you say photoshop? finish enhancing? fit adjustments?) We have a good place here. If someone wants a critique of a pen they can post in SOYP and ask for an honest critique. Let's leave this can of worms at rest.
Do a good turn daily!
Don


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## Jgrden (Apr 25, 2012)

Well Virgil. I am not sure what to say, but it would not be very nice. Cold water on a hot idea that could have been worked out.


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## its_virgil (Apr 26, 2012)

I do not have any decision making powers here nor do I have any influence on those who do. I just stated my opinion but I suppose I;m not allowed to do that. I'm not the only one who tossed cold water on your so called "hot idea." Where are your remarks to the others?  And we wonder why a critique forum will not work?  I've not heard any news that it won't be worked out. 
Do a good turn daily!
Don




Jgrden said:


> Well Virgil. I am not sure what to say, but it would not be very nice. Cold water on a hot idea that could have been worked out.


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## maxwell_smart007 (Apr 26, 2012)

Jgrden said:


> I think this is a great idea. A *IAP rating. *
> The judges need some credibility. The criteria needs to be clear (tolerances, finish, difficulty, caagory [clay, wood, metal, bone, etc.] craftsmanship) and it needs to be more than one person. The webmasters need to set up a way for the judges to communicate. The decision should be quick. Saying this, my work would be lucky to get a 1 out of 10 rating. To start things off we should all be involved in picking the judges. This will in itself be a long process. Perhaps the existing moderators could assist with this.  IMHO



I'm rather confused.  Has this morphed into a psuedo pen-guild vetting process now?  I thought the discussion was concerning some members' idea to make a critique forum.  I don't see how a panel of experts/judges fits in with this.  

One of my biggest pet peeves on forums in general is 'reputation ranking'.  Wouldn't pen rankings be even more divisive and hurtful, especially if you're somewhat proud of your pen and others are not kind? 

One of the greatest things about the IAP, in my mind, is the 'homey' nature, and the camaraderie - I would hate to see anything jeopardize the nature and feel of the forum


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## 76winger (Apr 26, 2012)

I don't think we've been discussing a forum where pens would've judged by a panel or anyone else. Rather a forum to learn from mistakes and how to not make them again.

And maybe this has been done before but rather than assuming it won't work this time because it didn't last time is a pretty short sided viewpoint. "If at first you don't succeed, try, try again"... But before trying again let's ask those that were around last time "why did it fail"?
What was learned from the experience?
Lessons learned?
What could be done differently next time so it doesn't end up like last time.

Just as we're discussing critiquing pens, critique that last effort and offer suggestions that would make it better on a second attempt.

Under any successful person or venture is a mountain of failures, and those failures are what we come to know of as experience.

Sent from my iPad using Forum Runner


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## chriselle (Apr 26, 2012)

I said I would play along and try it out but deep down I suspect the forum would ultimately suffer the same fate as the first attempt.  

However, applying Einstein's quote to a second try is only valid if no logical deductions are taken from the first time round.  I'm pretty sure Albert would say, tweak it and go for it.  Everything we know is based on that premise......the old learn from your mistakes thingy.


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## Smitty37 (Apr 26, 2012)

*Hmmmmm*

Well, all of the many and varied opinions given so far not-with-standing (I only read those on the frist 5 pages) I believe a critique forum would be about as useful as nipples on a boar hog. 

If you want an honest critique of a pen, send the pictures to a couple of people who will give you an honest evaluation.  If you want their opinion of the blank, ask for it.  If you want their opinion on a design, ask for it.

If you want the workmanship looked at, tell them. Understand that when you ask an opinion on workmanship, you are really just looking for verification of your own opinion.  You know when the workmanship on a pen you make is excellent and when it isn't.

Frankly, if you want an evaluation of something you've created, 12000 or so members don't really need to know my opinion of your workmanship.  Only you need to know what I think and you can learn that privately.


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## chriselle (Apr 26, 2012)

Smitty for the win..:beer:


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## Texatdurango (Apr 26, 2012)

...


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## Lucky2 (Apr 26, 2012)

I agree with Andrew, I have been giving my honest opinions on the SOYP and think that everyone should be doing that also. Why is a second place needed to get an opinion on the same pen, SOYP is set up for that, that's part of the reason for it's existance. I feel that if a special place to critique pens is made, just so that a person can be honest or meaner saying something about a pen is a pure waste of time. Just be completely honest when you post in SOYP.


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## 76winger (Apr 26, 2012)

Smitty37 said:
			
		

> Well, all of the many and varied opinions given so far not-with-standing (I only read those on the frist 5 pages) I believe a critique forum would be about as useful as nipples on a boar hog.
> 
> If you want an honest critique of a pen, send the pictures to a couple of people who will give you an honest evaluation.  If you want their opinion of the blank, ask for it.  If you want their opinion on a design, ask for it.
> 
> ...



Smitty, 

I don't see a way in FR to highlight, but I see "opinion" used 5 times above, I believe the purpose of the new forum would be to garner critiques, not opinions. They're two different things.

And posting in a critiques forum, you ARE asking. Just a lot more than one or two people. And the purpose would be so more than just the poster benefits from the entire dialog of the thread. It should be made clear to the poster that it will be viewable by everyone and to expect responses they may or may not like. Set this expectation at the outset, and if a person doesn't like the thought of receiving critical reviews, then they shouldn't be posting there. Use another forum or PM.

By the way my dad used to use the boar hog phrase a lot, God rest his sole. You brought back fond memories.

Well it's 1am and I have to be back up at 6. Have a good night all!

Sent from my iPad using Forum Runner


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## Lucky2 (Apr 26, 2012)

I would also like to say that if a special place is set up for brutal honesty about pens, there will be lots of hurt feelings. And with hurt feelings the one that got hurt can always be looking for revenge, which will make for many little mini wars amongst the members. IMHO, leave it as it is, then there will be no hard feelings amongst the members. And let anyone who wants a brutal critiquing done of their pen, just ask for it.
Len


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## Texatdurango (Apr 26, 2012)

I guess I just don't get it!  Can one person give me one example showing where posting a pen in a new critique forum would result in anything different than posting the same pen in the SOYP and asking for critiques?

Anyone care to give it a shot without watering down a response with 5 paragraphs of buzz words and catchy phrases?  One difference is all I'm looking for, because I can't think of anything.


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## Andrew_K99 (Apr 26, 2012)

Just a thought ... if I were working on a pen that I truly wanted design feedback on my instinct would be to post it in 'Penturning' and not 'SOYP' and I'd make my intentions clear.  IE "I'm trying a few new things and want your opinions on my pen".

The biggest issue I see with any sort of 'critique' type forum is it is all based on the users pictures.  I've seen many pictures from great pen makers that there is something that looks off but it is due to reflections or the angle of the picture.


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## bitshird (Apr 26, 2012)

I thought that's what SOYP forum was for?? Sure why not keep changing and adding JUNK threads to the point that logging on would be a complete waste of time.


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## Smitty37 (Apr 26, 2012)

76winger said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Technically that is true critique and opinion are not listed as synonyms....but critique and opinion in fact do *share *share several words that are synonyms for both. Both judgement and assessment included. 

Critique is also considered to be a term which shares a definition with criticism; Both critique and opinion are a listed synonyms for criticism. 

I light of the above, I will stand by my opinion that asking me to critique (criticize) your work would be asking for my assessment or judgement and hence asking for my opinion. 

My dad is also where I learned the phrase you referred to, along with one or two others ...that I don't use in family forums... meaning "useless".


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## Smitty37 (Apr 26, 2012)

The only difference I can see between critique and criticism is where they are used, both share the same roots, critique was probably invented by an "art critic".  Hence, we tend to say that we critique the work of an author or artist and criticize the work of a plumber or electrician.  In both cases we are giving a judgement or evaluation of the persons work and in both cases that judgement or evaluation will be based on our opinion of the work.


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## Smitty37 (Apr 26, 2012)

*One other thing*

I should make sure that everyone understands - if such a forum existed I wouldn't submit any of my own work.  Nor would I offer opinions on others work.  In fact, I probably wouldn't follow the forum at all.   I tell you this so you know that I don't have any personal stake in the outcome of this discussion and just rendered an honest opinion.

I seldom use SOYP for my own work except to show off a blank that invariably came from someone else and I will name the source.  

I do use it to show off the pens I get for my collection - they are my pride and joy.  I would be highly insulted if anyone was adversly critical of them.


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## jd99 (Apr 26, 2012)

After sleeping on this, I am kinda with Smitty on this I don't think I will use a forum/thread to get my pens critiquied (sp).

Everybody has a opinion and there are some that are valued and there are some that are not. Ultimately the only ones that matter are the receipient of my pens and other crafts, be it my customers, or those that I give the items to.

If I make crappy pens then I won't sell them, or anyone will want them.
Which I'm selling right now so I must be doing OK. And the fact that I am always trying to do the next one better then the last, is enough drive for me.

Now on the other hand if I'm having issues and need help a section that critique's and helps then I think (yea I know my opinion doesn't have value) there would be more value in that.

Anyhow good luck with the thread, and I know I wouldn't want to moderate it it will be a full time job.


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## Proud2Turn (Apr 26, 2012)

I'm one of the newer turners here and have a lot of desire to make quality pens, so I do want and seek out constructive evaluations of my work.  Steel sharpens steel.  Last chapter meeting I went around to several experienced people, handed them an example of my work and asked them to please tell me the good, bad, and ugly about it.  I got back some good and productive information that has helped me.  But criticism is of little use without good advise, tips, and info on how to avoid, or recover from, the bad and the ugly.

I have no trouble finding people to tell me what's wrong, I'm looking for the folks that will share with me ways to make it great.  Also it is very encouraging and feeds the drive when you hear good things about your work.  It is good to hear what's right, along with how I can make it better. 

What I've enjoyed most about the people I've meet and encountered in IAP is the willingness to help each get better at the craft, and to share the joy of it.


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## edicehouse (Apr 26, 2012)

mredburn said:


> edicehouse said:
> 
> 
> > The biggest problem is a lot of the people that make the real high end do not often post theirs. Is it fear of being imitated, ect. (Not taking anything away from the ones posted), but when is the last time you posted a pen?
> ...


 
I went to the SOYP yesturday before I posted and I think there were 3 pens posted by people with over 1000 posts, and 2 more with over 500.  There were 9 to 10 with people with posts under 100.  I really don't put too many in there anymore because most of mine are nothing that original.  I mean how many cigar's, Jr Gent, and slimlines can I post?  When I make one I know the mistakes ect.  

I am not bad mouthing anyone in any way.  The people that post pictures of their pens without many posts are seeking advice I believe.  

I think I saw one of your pens up in the SOYP yesturday, and a couple of the other "Sr" members and it gives me something to shoot for.  And ideas of trying new material.

I think until a larger portion of the "Sr" members start showing off their work, it is going to be hard to build the critique section, because a lot don't bother checking out, and those are the ones that could probably offer the "have you tried......" advice.


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## IPD_Mr (Apr 26, 2012)

My apologies to Mike and the rest of the forum for pushing this idea. I rarely posted in the SOYP because the GJNP thing did nothing to help improve my craft. I always had asked for C&C (comments & critiques), and it didn't matter to me if you had never turned a pen. If you saw something that didn't look right I wanted to see from your eyes as well as my own. Rarely would I get a critique, it was all the GJNP BS. Over the years we have been trained that that is what the SOYP forum is for. Just think if we had a Show Off Your Car forum and everyone said what a great little car the Yugo is, the darn thing might still be around! 

It is quite sad that after eight years of being on the web that IAP members seem to squabble over the saddest things. I was only asking for a section where people could be honest about what they saw and think since for the most part that seems impossible in SOYP. How many times have we seen a pen in SOYP and inside you want to ask why in the world would anyone not only post it, but admit to it? But instead we just type our four little letters of encouragement GJNP or do not comment at all. What was accomplished with that? Better yet what dis-services was done? 

Well it seems this was tried back in 2005 and it failed miserably. Have we not evolved in seven years to be able to do something as kind as telling someone that a pen is way under turned or that the finish is lacking? Based on this thread it is painfully obvious that we have not. So please dis-regard this idea and again my apologies to the forum for stirring this up.


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## Phunky_2003 (Apr 26, 2012)

I didn't read all these posts here.  

Just gonna offer my opinion on what I did/do when I want an honest opinion of something I am working on.

1.  Take to local chapter meeting, you can get better more descriptive comments about whatever your working on if someone can actually see and feel the item.

2.  Contact someone thru PM or email.  Explain to them you want an honest opinion.  Most here would help if asked.  Quite a few would be thrilled to be asked.  I asked several when learning who've become good friends.


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## Phunky_2003 (Apr 26, 2012)

IPD_Mr said:


> My apologies to Mike and the rest of the forum for pushing this idea. I rarely posted in the SOYP because the GJNP thing did nothing to help improve my craft. I always had asked for C&C (comments & critiques), and it didn't matter to me if you had never turned a pen. If you saw something that didn't look right I wanted to see from your eyes as well as my own. Rarely would I get a critique, it was all the GJNP BS. Over the years we have been trained that that is what the SOYP forum is for. Just think if we had a Show Off Your Car forum and everyone said what a great little car the Yugo is, the darn thing might still be around!
> 
> It is quite sad that after eight years of being on the web that IAP members seem to squabble over the saddest things. I was only asking for a section where people could be honest about what they saw and think since for the most part that seems impossible in SOYP. How many times have we seen a pen in SOYP and inside you want to ask why in the world would anyone not only post it, but admit to it? But instead we just type our four little letters of encouragement GJNP or do not comment at all. What was accomplished with that? Better yet what dis-services was done?
> 
> Well it seems this was tried back in 2005 and it failed miserably. Have we not evolved in seven years to be able to do something as kind as telling someone that a pen is way under turned or that the finish is lacking? Based on this thread it is painfully obvious that we have not. So please dis-regard this idea and again my apologies to the forum for stirring this up.


 

Great post!!

One of the reasons I dont post many in the SOYP forum.  I'd rather get honest feedback from someone like you, then a few saying Nice Pen.


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## GoodTurns (Apr 26, 2012)

The only pens I post in SOYP are exactly that, pens that I feel deserve showing off.  I know I post less than 1% of my finished pens there...usually when I really feel that it is "special".  What I consider a "show off" and what you consider a "show off" are likely VERY different (and that is NOT a shot at anyone's ability or puffing up mine...I know I'm not the best, certainly not the most creative, but I enjoy the heck out of making pens and have gotten pretty good at it).  I have greatly improved my work through constructive criticism I have received from several members (as have most of us here), usually through PMs.  The main problem I see with a "critiques" forum is exactly what we are seeing in this thread...perception, semantics and opinions.  Each of us could look at the same pen photo and rate it and we would have a wide spread of numbers!  IF folks can keep it civil and professional, I would love to participate (on both sides, showing and critiquing) and grow from the use of a dedicated forum...but that's a HUGE "IF"....$0.02....


----------



## Andrew_K99 (Apr 26, 2012)

Mike there is no need to apologies, it is a good idea in therory and most agree with that. It is just a very hard thing to monitor and I can see how it could get out of hand.

I wonder if a prefix option can be added to SOYP's (like there is for 'Deals Trades Gifts and Wants', see picture) that would state the intent of the SOYP.







Possible prefixes could be 'Beginners:', 'Showing off my:' or 'Critique my:' etc., etc.


----------



## edicehouse (Apr 26, 2012)

Andrew_K99 said:


> Mike there is no need to apologies, it is a good idea in therory and most agree with that. It is just a very hard thing to monitor and I can see how it could get out of hand.
> 
> I wonder if a prefix option can be added to SOYP's (like there is for 'Deals Trades Gifts and Wants', see picture) that would state the intent of the SOYP.
> 
> ...


 


That may be the best thing.


----------



## Texatdurango (Apr 26, 2012)

IPD_Mr said:


> My apologies to Mike and the rest of the forum for pushing this idea............It is quite sad that after eight years of being on the web that IAP members seem to squabble over the saddest things. I was only asking for a section where people could be honest about what they saw and think since for the most part that seems impossible in SOYP.



Mike, I don't see a need for an apology, you thought this would be a good idea so you started a thread, no harm in that.  

In my opinion...... We need to remember that the same people who over the past few years have been saying... "nice pen, great job" have lately started going overboard with the "Wow, fantastic, best pen I've ever seen, you're the grand master of all pen makers, you rule all, I'll never be as good as you" type of posts.

More and more, we're seeing comments like the ones above even for pens that honestly quite often, aren't that good and yet the accolades keep piling on.  Can you imagine the wrath one would receive after posting an honest critique amongst all the oohing and aahing!

I honestly think if a new forum were started you would continue to get the same oohs and aahs posts even when serious critique was asked for and if someone DID give some serious critiquing I'm sure some disagreements would flair up and would generate a few PM's.  

For quite some time now, if I see where I could make some constructive suggestions to someones pen, I just send them a PM regardless of where I see their pen.


----------



## PenMan1 (Apr 26, 2012)

If you really want an honest critique forum, it could easily be accomplished in much the same way as a "blind clinical trial".

In this "blind forum", no member could see who posted the pen, and the original poster would not be able to see the screen names of those who left comments. Additionally, the OP would be allowed the option of "letting members see comments" or "keeping all comments private to the OP". Moderators, of course, would need to be able to idendify all posters, and a forum like this would need its own full time moderator.

This is similar to how focus groups work and this methodology has been successfully used for decades.

Respectfully submitted.


----------



## Haynie (Apr 26, 2012)

PenMan1 said:


> If you really want an honest critique forum, it could easily be accomplished in much the same way as a "blind clinical trial".
> 
> In this "blind forum", no member could see who posted the pen, and the original poster would not be able to see the screen names of those who left comments. Additionally, the OP would be allowed the option of "letting members see comments" or "keeping all comments private to the OP". Moderators, of course, would need to be able to idendify all posters, and a forum like this would need its own full time moderator.
> 
> ...



This would possibly be a coding nightmare but I think this is a good idea. I don't post because I do not have a pen I want to show off yet.  This would give me a chance to get honest criticism.


----------



## PenMan1 (Apr 26, 2012)

It really SHOULDN'T be a coding problem at all. I can tell by the "polling" function of the site that the technology is already there . 

Simply treat all posts in this forum as a "poll that doesn't show results". The hard part might be the toggle to allow the OP to turn on and off viewing of comments.


----------



## Smitty37 (Apr 26, 2012)

Evolved in seven years?  Mike Where have you been? My guess would be that less than 5% of today's members even belonged 7 years ago.  I think when I joined 3 years ago about 25% of today's members didn't belong. 

I have the honest and decided opinion that it would not be productive to have a forum such as you suggest.  I think if you want that kind of information about your pens you can get it from members whose opinions you value, without controversy.

Btw, no apology necessary.... 



IPD_Mr said:


> My apologies to Mike and the rest of the forum for pushing this idea. I rarely posted in the SOYP because the GJNP thing did nothing to help improve my craft. I always had asked for C&C (comments & critiques), and it didn't matter to me if you had never turned a pen. If you saw something that didn't look right I wanted to see from your eyes as well as my own. Rarely would I get a critique, it was all the GJNP BS. Over the years we have been trained that that is what the SOYP forum is for. Just think if we had a Show Off Your Car forum and everyone said what a great little car the Yugo is, the darn thing might still be around!
> 
> It is quite sad that after eight years of being on the web that IAP  members seem to squabble over the saddest things. I was only asking for a section where people could be honest about what they saw and think since for the most part that seems impossible in SOYP. How many times have we seen a pen in SOYP and inside you want to ask why in the world would anyone not only post it, but admit to it? But instead we just type our four little letters of encouragement GJNP or do not comment at all. What was accomplished with that? Better yet what dis-services was done?
> 
> Well it seems this was tried back in 2005 and it failed miserably. Have we not evolved in seven years to be able to do something as kind as telling someone that a pen is way under turned or that the finish is lacking? Based on this thread it is painfully obvious that we have not. So please dis-regard this idea and again my apologies to the forum for stirring this up.


----------



## Xander (Apr 26, 2012)

Been watching this ping pong match since post 1 and did make a comment, but this has evolved into another topic so...

A few people have said that if someone wants an honest critique of thier work they should do it by PM's...... OK, well....

I'm still fairly new here and I have NO CLUE as to who I should PM for an HONEST critique. And if I did PM a member.... would that person respond? How do I figure out who is willing to help? Way too hard for newish members.

Anyway, looks like this idea (that I thought initially was a good one) has become a hot subject and will probably not happen.


----------



## BSea (Apr 26, 2012)

Xander said:


> Been watching this ping pong match since post 1 and did make a comment, but this has evolved into another topic so...
> 
> A few people have said that if someone wants an honest critique of thier work they should do it by PM's...... OK, well....
> 
> ...


I agree.  Besides that, if it were only authorized judges or acquaintances that comment on the work, then we would miss out on a fresh idea from someone who isn't a judge or friend (see above).

 And I also believe we are WAY over thinking this.  Most times the simplest answer is the best.  If you want an honest critique, just ask for it.  How hard is that?  If someone is giving harsh & rude comments that you don't like, just use the "IGNORE" feature is user CP.


----------



## Haynie (Apr 26, 2012)

Xander,  

I have been amazed by how open and willing to help this place is.  Every question I have asked via PM has been answered graciously and openly.  Specific questions were asked based on what I read in people's posts.  I did not just blindly fire off the questions though.  I used the search function for what I was looking for.  Do a little research based on what you want to know then read people's posts.

If you happen to NOT get an answer or the responder is an ass, find someone else.


----------



## Andrew_K99 (Apr 26, 2012)

I personally am not a fan of the idea of PM'ing feedback.  The poster of the pen isn't the only one that learns from the comments.  I've learnd a lot about what people like to see and what doesn't work because someone said something.  Had all this been in PM land we as a group wouldn't learn.


----------



## Xander (Apr 26, 2012)

Haynie said:


> Xander,
> 
> I have been amazed by how open and willing to help this place is. Every question I have asked via PM has been answered graciously and openly. Specific questions were asked based on what I read in people's posts. I did not just blindly fire off the questions though. I used the search function for what I was looking for. Do a little research based on what you want to know then read people's posts.
> 
> If you happen to NOT get an answer or the responder is an ass, find someone else.


 
Haynie, you miss the point. People are suggesting that if "I" want a critique of a pen I should PM... someone. I can't 'research' who to PM or who will give an honest non-biased critique. IF this idea is to work it has to be done in an open forum.

In any case, it looks like we are all flogging the dead horse. I think there has been enough discussion about this and now it's up to the powers that be to take whatever action is appropriate.


----------



## Smitty37 (Apr 26, 2012)

Xander said:


> Haynie said:
> 
> 
> > Xander,
> ...


 Nothing prevents you from asking that type of question in the Penturning Forum and members ask them frequently.


----------



## 76winger (Apr 26, 2012)

BSea said:


> Xander said:
> 
> 
> > Been watching this ping pong match since post 1 and did make a comment, but this has evolved into another topic so...
> ...



I think it's being way over-thought as well. We've been discussing the merits of an additional forum that could be used to garner more critique for the pens we post in it versus the fluffy "That looks great!" stuff that comes out of the SOYP forum. 

And the purpose of the forum is to share your posting and it's reviews with the community at large rather than private sharing of thoughts via PMs. Yes that already exists and this hasn't been the topic of this thread. It just keeps getting skewed (no pun intended) those directions because there's too much fear of honest criticism and the open conversations it could bring about.


----------



## 76winger (Apr 26, 2012)

I've also thought about the Penturning forum as an alternative to what we've been discussing, but I keep coming back with the same argument against that thought: They'd really be two different forums that could complement each other. 

Penturning being a location for pre-operative discussion, where you look for and ask questions about how to do this process or that task. This is mostly what it is now.

Pen Critique being a post-opertive location to discuss how the end result came out and toss around ideas of how it might be made even better.


----------



## Smitty37 (Apr 26, 2012)

76winger said:


> BSea said:
> 
> 
> > Xander said:
> ...


 
Personally I don't think it is fear of honest criticism at all, but the "open conversations" it could bring about is another story. Regardless of how you try to police it, far too often, there will be a component set involved (I think probably 95% of the pens made by members still use component sets) and someone will dis the set or the manufacturer and the fight will be on.

I count 5 forums (Penturning, Advanced Pen Making, Fountain Pens, Finishing, Casting and Stablizatiion) aside from Show Off Your Pens where you could seek the kinds of criticisms you are looking for - probably from people pretty well versed in the subjest.  I just don't think we need another forum of that type.


----------



## Jgrden (Apr 26, 2012)

I picked on you, Don, because you have thick skin and are willing to stick your neck out once in a while.


----------



## its_virgil (Apr 27, 2012)

Its all good...its 100 degrees here in tex and I thought a little cold water would fceel good.
Do a good turn daily!
Don

Sent from my  Samsung Epic using Forum runner


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## IPD_Mr (Apr 27, 2012)

Smitty37 said:


> Evolved in seven years? Mike Where have you been? My guess would be that less than 5% of today's members even belonged 7 years ago. I think when I joined 3 years ago about 25% of today's members didn't belong.
> 
> I have the honest and decided opinion that it would not be productive to have a forum such as you suggest. I think if you want that kind of information about your pens you can get it from members whose opinions you value, without controversy.
> 
> ...


 
That is right Smitty, in seven years this forum has not evolved to a point that people cannot ask for an honest critique without someone making a snarky comment.  Just look at this thread and where it has gone.  Look at the post of the critique my bic pen making a mockery of the idea.  There is a difference in evolved and changed.  The membership faces have changed and that does not equate to evolved.  Like I said earlier I am sorry I ever bothered to bring the idea up and I should have remembered my conversation with Jeff a year ago.  Jeff you were correct in your assessment and I was wrong.  I was looking for a way to improve how we communicate on here and hopefully get to the point of helping one another to improve our craft.  You can now all return to your hot key responses of GJNP.


----------



## Andrew_K99 (Apr 27, 2012)

Mike, what do you think of the idea I posted here http://www.penturners.org/forum/f18...ritiquing-pens-96681/index10.html#post1392064

Could this do what you envisioned?


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## 76winger (Apr 27, 2012)

Andrew_K99 said:


> Mike, what do you think of the idea I posted here http://www.penturners.org/forum/f18...ritiquing-pens-96681/index10.html#post1392064
> 
> Could this do what you envisioned?



This idea could benefit in that you could try and do both in one forum, and people wanting to show off and garner critiques wouldn't have to post in two places (although the later would likely happen at different times anyway). 

And it may be me, but I had to look at that screen shot 3 or 4 times before I figured out what you were talking about by "prefixes". I thought I was just looking at different titles until I saw the colored prefixes appear on my last viewing. If others got confused on this like me, then there could end up some confusion on how to reply to what postings in a shared forum. 

I know you addressed this to Mike, just adding my thoughts.


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## Andrew_K99 (Apr 27, 2012)

76winger said:


> Andrew_K99 said:
> 
> 
> > Mike, what do you think of the idea I posted here http://www.penturners.org/forum/f18...ritiquing-pens-96681/index10.html#post1392064
> ...


 Good points.  I posted for the first time in "Deals ..." and discovered how easy it was to apply the 'prefix' of "*For sale:*" to my thread.

Not sure if it is the answer, I just liked my idea


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## jd99 (Apr 27, 2012)

I think this is a dead subject, It didn't work before, and it looks like it wont work now, and it hasn't worked on other forums.

Look at what happened Mr IPD even took offense to what was a joke and considered it to be (to quote) "a mockery" of his idea. (It wasn't nor did I mean it to be a mockery)

*"Look at the post of the critique my bic pen making a mockery of the idea"*

This is exactly what would happen in a critique forum, some one is going to get their comments misconstrued (sp) and it's off to the flames.

What is written in text is often not taken in the context it was ment to be, this is how flames get started; happens all the times, people mis read the context of the comment.

Again my 2 cents worth.


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## BSea (Apr 27, 2012)

Andrew_K99 said:


> 76winger said:
> 
> 
> > Andrew_K99 said:
> ...


I also was a little confused at 1st, but after I figured it out, I think that's the perfect way to use the SOYP forum to asks for critiques.




IPD_Mr said:


> Just look at this thread and where it has gone.  Look at the post of the critique my bic pen making a mockery of the idea.


I guess I missed something?  I thought the thread was funny.


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## Andrew_K99 (Apr 27, 2012)

BSea said:


> IPD_Mr said:
> 
> 
> > Just look at this thread and where it has gone. Look at the post of the critique my bic pen making a mockery of the idea.
> ...


 
I see what Mike is saying ... that thread did go over board and made a mockery of his idea.

Carl set up a better thread IMO [here] that got good results I believe.


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## Texatdurango (Apr 27, 2012)

Andrew_K99 said:


> .......Carl set up a better thread IMO [here] that got good results I believe.



The way I see it, Carl just further proved that if one wants his/her pen critiqued, the SOYP is still the perfect forum to do it so doesn't this sorta let the air out of the new forum idea? :wink:


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## BSea (Apr 27, 2012)

Andrew_K99 said:


> BSea said:
> 
> 
> > IPD_Mr said:
> ...


I thought Mike's thread was a parity on the "critiques" that are often in SOYP.  I did post  in his thread in what I believed was the spirit of the thread.  Many of the post made me smile, and I thought that's what it was all about.  If it degenerated later, I didn't see it.  That's why I asked if I missed something.

I did see the other thread, and I think that was what people that want real critiques are looking for.  I didn't post there because everything that I would have said had already been said.  I'm starting to use the like button more & more.  And will use it when I see something I like but don't want to repeat over & over what has already been said.


----------



## 76winger (Apr 27, 2012)

Andrew_K99 said:


> BSea said:
> 
> 
> > IPD_Mr said:
> ...



I think everyone saw that thread as a mockery to begin with and just treated it as such. I know the comment I left on it was in line with it being a joke. 

I believe the test posting Carl did was a much better example of what it could be: http://www.penturners.org/forum/f13/honest-critique-my-pen-request-96688/


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## 76winger (Apr 27, 2012)

Texatdurango said:


> Andrew_K99 said:
> 
> 
> > .......Carl set up a better thread IMO [here] that got good results I believe.
> ...



Only for those who have been firmly against the idea since the beginning of this thread. 

I think there's several here who still think it would be a good idea, because it would exist to serve a separate purpose. 

The biggest issue I've seen in this discussion centers around moderation if it got out of hand. If it were clearly explained that the purpose is to provide purposeful input and flaming discussions wouldn't be tolerated. And those that can't control themselves, well I'm sure there's facilities in the software to deny those people from continuing to post in that particular forum.


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## jd99 (Apr 27, 2012)

:befuddled:
Geeze now folks are going to go to battle over a couple of threads.

One was a joke one wasn't whats the big deal.

OK lets put it this way... My thread was Critiquing the idea of a Critique thread.

See someone got bent out of shape because of the critique's.

Thats exactly what will happen in a that kind of thread no matter how much it is not ment to be....

Remember this It's just a forum 

OK in the words of the Shark Tank

I'm Out.......


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## Carl Fisher (Apr 27, 2012)

I was actually quite pleased with the way that thread went and it makes me more comfortable just coming out and asking for critiques.  To this point I have not done that and in hind sight I wish I would have more often.  I wanted to see how the overall discussion went and although I don't truly stand on one side or the other of needing a separate forum, I'm happy either way.  

There was a lot of repeat critique comments before others realized that clicking the like button accomplished essentially the same result.  Some of the repeats did offer different suggestions however which is good.  I think as long as comments are provided with justification or suggestions to go along with it, they can only help improve someones work.


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## Justturnin (Apr 27, 2012)

76winger said:


> The biggest issue I've seen in this discussion centers around moderation if it got out of hand. If it were clearly explained that the purpose is to provide purposeful input and flaming discussions wouldn't be tolerated. And those that can't control themselves, well I'm sure there's facilities in the software to deny those people from continuing to post in that particular forum.



I agree with this point and see that as why it would fail.  The Mods already have too many forums to watch w/out having to babysit on one that is almost guaranteed to get out of hand daily.  Another thing I think we would see would be groups/cliques attacking an individual for their opinion not aligning w/ their own.  I have seen it happen on other threads and been part of it because i did not agree w/ the 'mob'.  This would be risky and could cause folks to leave the forum or not join if they just stopped by via a google search and saw that type of negativity on the forum.  

I feel that 85% of the IAP could make it work but the other 15% are wound up a little to tight and we all know the squeaky wheel gets the grease.

I think if someone wants feedback they can ask for it in Penturning, SOYP or even start a Poll.


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## Smitty37 (Apr 27, 2012)

IPD_Mr said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > Evolved in seven years? Mike Where have you been? My guess would be that less than 5% of today's members even belonged 7 years ago. I think when I joined 3 years ago about 25% of today's members didn't belong.
> ...


Personally I think most of this thread has been a pretty rational discussion of your proposal or things naturally related to the topic.  You have received a certain amount of support for your request and some opposed, but no one has (in my opinion) gotten out of line with comments.
 
As to the forum "evolving" I wouldn't pretend to really understand what you mean by evolving.  My experience with forums has been that what I *think* you might mean by evolving occurs only when the site (forum) reaches a point of equilibrium with few new members entering and few old members leaving and everybody gets to know everybody else_._ Usually such places are quite small.  My best guess would be, this forum has not reached that point. One might think of that as either good or bad depending on their attitude.

I'm not familiar (although I might have seen it - if I did it has, along with so many other things, taken leave of my mind) with the Bic thread you mentioned and wouldn't know where to look for it.


----------



## Andrew_K99 (Apr 27, 2012)

Smitty37 said:


> I'm not familiar (although I might have seen it - if I did it has, along with so many other things, taken leave of my mind) with the Bic thread you mentioned and wouldn't know where to look for it.


 
It is this thread here Smitty http://www.penturners.org/forum/f13/ill-start-critique-my-pen-96686/


----------



## Jgrden (Apr 27, 2012)

its_virgil said:


> Its all good...its 100 degrees here in tex and I thought a little cold water would fceel good.
> Do a good turn daily!
> Don
> 
> Sent from my  Samsung Epic using Forum runner



Don: I can appreciate what you said. We lived in Conroe for three years. Left just this last year. Beautiful State, lot's of Texas pride, men are gentlemen, hand shakes mean something, lots of work, really neat history. I just wish it were not a sub tropic climate. 
Not only that, but I think your comment had allot of truth in it. 
John
Sent from my average daily used laptop.


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## Smitty37 (Apr 27, 2012)

*So why the comment*

Why the comment on the "Bic Critique" Mike? (Actually it looks more like a papermate to me, but what the heck).  Someone with a sense of humor having a little fun with it and joined by a bunch of others with a sense of humor.


----------



## Andrew_K99 (Apr 27, 2012)

Smitty37 said:


> Why the comment on the "Bic Critique" Mike? (Actually it looks more like a papermate to me, but what the heck). Someone with a sense of humor having a little fun with it and joined by a bunch of others with a sense of humor.


My take on it ...

That 'Bic' thread took Mike's idea and made a joke out of it.  It suggests anyone trying to get feedback on a pen is just wasting their time.


----------



## Smitty37 (Apr 27, 2012)

*LOL*



Andrew_K99 said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > Why the comment on the "Bic Critique" Mike? (Actually it looks more like a papermate to me, but what the heck). Someone with a sense of humor having a little fun with it and joined by a bunch of others with a sense of humor.
> ...


 I seldom use the Acronym LOL but in this case I did (Laugh out loud). 

Of course, that's what it did - some people make a very good living out of doing the same thing over far more serious matters than whether or not to institute a new forum at this web site. Jay Leno and David Letterman come to mind immediately.

Note that one of the first replys on that thread was from my good friend Seamus .... and he was also a very early supporter of Mikes idea. It was all in fun guys.

If one of you guys wants to make a pen using one of my component sets and start the same kind of a thread - please do...I'd probably see a 50% increase in sales.


----------



## wolftat (Apr 27, 2012)

It all sounds like a great idea until someones feelings get hurt. Remember, you can't see or hear the way something is said when it is written. I know of a few members that took something the wrong way and have since left the forum, maybe we don't need a place to publicly degrade someones work, we already have a show your pen area and that should be enough. Just my opinion and I am entitled to it.


----------



## Texatdurango (Apr 27, 2012)

76winger said:


> Texatdurango said:
> 
> 
> > ...The way I see it, Carl just further proved that if one wants his/her pen critiqued, the SOYP is still the perfect forum to do it so doesn't this sorta let the air out of the new forum idea? :wink:
> ...



Dave, I just looked back and you have quoted me and had comments on just about every post I made in this thread but one, did you miss it or just didn't have an answer?  Instead of asking you to go back and read post #84 again, it was a simple question, one which I thought would be easy to answer.  Here is what I said and asked ( I underlined the part that you probably missed).....

I guess I just don't get it! Can one person give me *one* example showing  where posting a pen in a new critique forum would result in anything  different than posting the same pen in the SOYP and asking for  critiques?

Anyone care to give it a shot without watering down a response with 5  paragraphs of buzz words and catchy phrases? * One difference is all I'm  looking for*, because I can't think of anything.  

I think some of you guys are starting to get worked up and upset over this issue when really it's just people discussing the pros and cons of adding another forum to the IAP.  Some think it's a good idea, some don't.  Some go on and on trying to convince others that they are CORRECT, I could care less either way, I'm just trying to figure out why we need it and I asked a question a few days ago.  A question that so far no one has answered.  Could it be that hard to answer?


----------



## Justturnin (Apr 27, 2012)

Maybe we should just start a blind poll.  Then once all is voted on Jeff can make an executive decision and decide if he wants to put it in place, after all it is his house and we are is guests.  This discussion has gotten pretty far off track.  In my opinion it is what will happen in the Comments and Critique section too.


----------



## IPD_Mr (Apr 27, 2012)

Smitty37 said:


> I seldom use the Acronym LOL but in this case I did (Laugh out loud).


 
I will be honest and admit that I laughed too, but at only one post.  And if he was anywhere near me I would buy him a beer.  Thanks Chris you had the most fitting response.:beer::beer::beer:


----------



## Justturnin (Apr 27, 2012)

IPD_Mr said:


> I will be honest and admit that I laughed too, but at only one post.  And if he was anywhere near me I would buy him a beer.  Thanks Chris you had the most fitting response.:beer::beer::beer:



Me?  I'm honored.  A beer would be great......:neutral:


----------



## 76winger (Apr 27, 2012)

Texatdurango said:


> 76winger said:
> 
> 
> > Texatdurango said:
> ...



I think it's just because you've had so many good arguments for me to address that this one slipped through the cracks. :wink: I've been trying to keep up with this thread and using a lot of time I really should be devoting elsewhere. But the subject has reached me and directed me to take the side I have. Thanks for re-posting it for my directed attention. 



			
				Texatdurango said:
			
		

> Instead of asking you to go back and read post #84 again, it was a simple question, one which I thought would be easy to answer.  Here is what I said and asked ( I underlined the part that you probably missed).....
> 
> I guess I just don't get it! Can one person give me *one* example showing  where posting a pen in a new critique forum would result in anything  different than posting the same pen in the SOYP and asking for  critiques?
> 
> Anyone care to give it a shot without watering down a response with 5  paragraphs of buzz words and catchy phrases? * One difference is all I'm  looking for*, because I can't think of anything.



George, 
I'm sorry I missed this one. 
I've actually posted several pen in SOYP in the past year or so and pretty much invited comments and critique on all of them.* Almost always I've gotten lots of positive comments (nice pen, great job, etc.) but I don't think I've ever gotten any of what I'd critiques* (suggestions of something seen by another and ways I might be able to correct it, and I know my work's not THAT good). On the contrary I've also posted some in Pen Photography and asked for comments and advice and gotten what I asked for. Why do you suppose that is? Maybe because the general attitude that's prevalent in a different forum has merit after all...

If I were to post those same pens in a separate forum, designed for pointing out places I could improve, I would then expect those kinds of responses instead of the "great job" responses. *This is the reason I think the a separate forum would be beneficial - the EXPECTATION of more critical observations that a separate forum would bring. If you're sensitive you critical comments, don't post your work in this forum!* Go to SOYP and get the warm fuzzy responses you're looking for!
*
In a nutshell: I simply think there's a place for both.*



			
				Texatdurango said:
			
		

> I think some of you guys are starting to get worked up and upset over this issue when really it's just people discussing the pros and cons of adding another forum to the IAP.



I think some ARE trying to get worked up over this debate. It's actually the first one I've done more than just posted an opinion and left it at that. I've just felt it worth the time to stand for the pro side of this debate and ride it through. 



Texatdurango said:


> Some think it's a good idea, some don't.  Some go on and on trying to convince others that they are CORRECT, I could care less either way, I'm just trying to figure out why we need it and I asked a question a few days ago.  A question that so far no one has answered.  Could it be that hard to answer?



Well I hope I explained the reason I think it would be good George, and I hope you don't think I've been picking on you. Maybe picking you out because your arguments seem more solid than some, but not picking on you. 

There's been a fair number that just simply state that it's been done before and no need to do it again. I think that's on it's own is no reason NOT to try it again. Maybe it will flop like last time, and if it does get out of hand it could just as easily be pulled again. But I'd like to think we could all enter in a critiquing forum with a proper frame of mind for providing helpful information to our fellow pen makers and not enter into bashing each others work. We are grown-ups after all, aren't we? But maybe I just have a more positive attitude towards the people I've been getting to know in here than others do. I do tend to have an optimistic outlook on things, there's too many pessimists in the world and I don't care to increase their numbers.

Any of the arguments against it in this thread could be worked out. I can't go back through all of them at this time but such things as scaring off new users? Really? Maybe let them participate in the forums for a few months before letting them have access then... But I don't really think it would come that personally. 

Why not use SOYP, I think we've covered that more than a few times by now. 

I also understand the arguments associate with text getting taken out of context and interpreted incorrectly. I've been dealing with that for 25 years as an IT professional. But hey, there's a lot business that rely on email, which has gone through the same arguments over the year. And these days there's Facebook, and Twitter and all sorts of mediums with the same problems. But that prevent any of them from not advancing just because of this argument? I don't think so.


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## Texatdurango (Apr 27, 2012)

Just as I figured, arguing for arguments sake!  I think I'll pull the plug on this thread, it's sounding like a broken record.


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## Smitty37 (Apr 27, 2012)

76winger said:


> Texatdurango said:
> 
> 
> > 76winger said:
> ...


 
I listed 4 forums aside from SOYP where I believe you can get exactly what you want from the new forum.  I assume that is an honest evaluation of your work, materials or design.

My opposition has nothing at all to do with how people will act on it.  If they were all to show the greatest of patience and respect  I would still not favor it for the simple reason that in my opinion we do not need it.

That is exactly what I would tell Jeff if he were to ask my opinion (which he has not).  I need no other reason to oppose it but if Jeff decides to do it I wouldn't be upset by it or feel like I'd lost anything.  I hope those who favor it have the same attitude if Jeff does not decide to do it.


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## 76winger (Apr 28, 2012)

Well there's certainly no attitude problem from my view whether a new forum gets implemented or not. I've simply been stating reasons for one as I see it. And I think it's been a good discussion covering pros and cons both ways for the most part.

But just stating we don't need it just because we don't need another forum doesn't carry much weight in my viewpoint either. Ideally could garner just as much from the site if there was only one forum for everything! Because when I come here I don't usually go to specific forums anyway. I just go to the home page and review the most recent threads and the read and reply to those that catch my interest. 

So why not throw it all into one forum? I wouldn't see any difference  personally! But many people do come here and go to specific forums of interest to them and don't bother looking into those that seem to have no value to them. A critiquing forum would be the same way. Some would use it to look for ideas to improve on what they've done and others would be looking in it to help those folks out. And many would simply be lurking to learn something before they go down the same path. 

It's like a file cabinet full of information: You can pile it all into one drawer and have the same collection of information. But it's sure a lot nicer when you break everything down and separate it into different folders, because it makes it easier to go back and find something later.


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## 76winger (Apr 28, 2012)

I too think we've discussed this about as far as we can take it. The powers that be can review what we've discussed. Take a poll if they want. And we'll all go on with life whether a new forum is created or not. So I'll part from offering any more views for the PRO side at this point. I've made about all I can, and now I have pens to make!


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## Smitty37 (Apr 28, 2012)

76winger said:


> Well there's certainly no attitude problem from my view whether a new forum gets implemented or not. I've simply been stating reasons for one as I see it. And I think it's been a good discussion covering pros and cons both ways for the most part.
> 
> But just stating we don't need it just because we don't need another forum doesn't carry much weight in my viewpoint either. Ideally could garner just as much from the site if there was only one forum for everything! Because when I come here I don't usually go to specific forums anyway. I just go to the home page and review the most recent threads and the read and reply to those that catch my interest.
> 
> ...


 Exactly, that is why I think the 5 folders we already have to dispense that kind of information is enough.


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## 76winger (Apr 29, 2012)

None of which are specific for the purpose we've been discussing.


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## Smitty37 (Apr 29, 2012)

76winger said:


> None of which are specific for the purpose we've been discussing.


 They all are....you can ask for a critical review on any of them and people frequently do.


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## 76winger (Apr 29, 2012)

Smitty37 said:


> 76winger said:
> 
> 
> > None of which are specific for the purpose we've been discussing.
> ...



*None of which are specific for the purpose we've been discussing.*


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## Smitty37 (Apr 29, 2012)

76winger said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > 76winger said:
> ...


 So What?


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