# An experiment for the best CA finish



## soligen (Dec 19, 2011)

Getting back to some wood pens after a acrylic kick for a while, and I ran a little experiment.

I have noticed in the past that my glass like CA finishes would over time develop a little bit of texture. Still a gloss finish, but when looking at reflected light with my "Critical eye" I can see the texture. People in the automotive paint business call it "orange peal'

So, I turned 2 pens. I built up a nice thick CA finish, did just enough sanding to get rid of the shiny spots and took it off the lathe. As per my usual practice, it was a thick CA film with the CA probably .01 above the bushings (pleanty of room to size the pen using the finish). And I would guess .01 below the bushings too. (I probably should have noted measurements to be more scientific about it, but I decided this was an experiment after I started).

Pen one (a long click) sat in the shop for over a week 

Pen 2 (a Le Roi) sat in the shop 2 days.

Both pens were made from wood & veneer that is been in my shop for years, last time I checked moisture of my shop stored wood it was 7%.

I completed each pen on the same day, (This was when I decided it was an experiment). I did the best CA finish I possible could - both looked outstanding with no texture or lines in reflected light (unmagnified).

Today (9.5 days later) I just examined both pens. Pen 1 looks just like I recall the day I completed it. Pen 2 has some of the texture to it that I can see without magnification, although to a lesser degree than pens where I applied CA and finished all in one day.

My conclusion is that the CA continues to cure for days after being applied. Even waiting 2 days and it still changed slightly on the pen. 

I haven't exactly narrowed down how long it take the CA to fully cure, but I'm thinking for the best possible finish, wait a week. Thickness might affect cure time too.

Please don't take this wrong - you can get a great finish using CA without the wait - I'm just thinking this is for those pens you want to make extra special.

Has anyone else ever noticed anything similar?

This could partially be due to how thick I make my finishes. BTW, I use medium CA with accelerator.


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## Texatdurango (Dec 19, 2011)

Dennis, Not wanting to steal any of your thunder but a few of us have preaching this idea for a few years. I'm glad that yet another quality penmaker has joined the ranks and has seen the light! 

To be honest, I've never intentionally waited two weeks to see what happens but have deliberately waited at least 24 hours, and a few times 48 hours before even sanding and polishing a CA finish I am working on and in my opinion, the results are remarkable. I do know one thing........ if you wait a day or two BEFORE sanding, you will notice that it is not as "mushy" to sand and can be polished to a nicer shine.

There is not one person on this forum who has all the answers when it comes to doing a CA finish on a pen but several members have learned some valuable information through trial and error or just stumbling onto something.

The reason the idea of waiting never caught on is that most are in such a hurry to make pens and the prevailing thought is that if it can setup in 2.35976 seconds, that it is ready to sand and polish....... which is just not true. 

For those doubting this, apply a CA finish, polish it, assemble the pen then place it in a nice pen box, close the lid and let it sit for a few days then open it........ the metal parts have fogged over haven't they! That's outgassing and I believe the finish continues to shrink ever so lightly as the outgassing process continues....... and I don't think anyone knows for how long! Maybe it never really stops, I don't know! But I do know I will pick up a pen I made two years ago and think, "I'm trying to sell this?" then dissasemble it and redo the CA finish, this time waiting before sanding.

Thanks for the post, now I think I'll wait a bit longer before sanding and polishing my CA finishes!


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## Displaced Canadian (Dec 19, 2011)

I must admit that this is something I haven't thought about but have kinda noticed. Sometimes when I finish a pen after polishing the finish feels soft. I always have blamed it on the weather. When I apply the CA and wait until the next day to break it off the bushings the finish is more prone to chip without cutting the next day as compared to breaking the bushings loose the same evening. Now that my shop is colder I've noticed that if I wet sand I have a much greater chance of fogging in the finish. I know that in the painting world there is a difference between dry and cured. Most complaints about the primer not working is because the primer didn't have a chance to cure before being painted over. I'm going to have to pay more attention to this now. Interesting thread.


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## 1080Wayne (Dec 20, 2011)

Agree with your observations re orange peel development on finishes which have been sanded shortly after application . I try to wait at least a whole day before finish sanding . If I can smell the CA when sanding , I know it isn`t adequately cured . I generally apply a fairly thick finish . I frequently get impatient and don`t allow extra cure time for a knot hole or other other low spot where I do a major build-up of finish , even though I know that there will be a substandard finish at that spot a week or two later .


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## SCR0LL3R (Dec 20, 2011)

If I can potentially get a smoother finish by letting it cure longer I will certainly try, but until now I have almost always sanded my CA right after applying, put the pen together and then put it in a case... not once ever had any outgassing issues by doing this, nor have I ever smelled CA when sanding. Perhaps I am using more accelerator than you guys or giving it a few more seconds between coats.


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## Justturnin (Dec 20, 2011)

Good info.  I have read this type of thought several times on the site.  I actually have a Jr Gent sitting in the shop waiting to polish.  I hope to see if difference.  I think this is more critical this time of year when it is cold and the CA is drying more slowly.  I had a piece of CA peel up on me the other day so I tried to pop it off w/ my box cutter to fill it back in and the CA peeled off like a cuticle from my thumb (ouch).  That is realy when I took heed to these types of posts and realized the CA is no where near ready to sand just becasue it is not sticking to you.  I am going to start bringing them in the house for a few days and then have a polish part once a week.

Great Post by you and all that have tried to help us in a rush see the light.


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## SCR0LL3R (Dec 20, 2011)

Something else I have noticed is that there is a big difference between different brands of accelerator. I once poured one brand into an almost empty bottle of the other and ended up wasting 2oz of accelerator because the CA bubbles and turns white if I spray it with this mixture.

These are the only 2 brands I have ever used but the E-Z brand is much better than Insta-Set IMO. I notice the E-Z evaporates nearly instantly and the Insta-Set leaves a slippery wet film of overspray on the lathe that takes awhile to evaporate. It may leave something behind between layers of CA.


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## Steve Busey (Dec 20, 2011)

Dennis, this quantifies something I've thought about before, but only had empirical evidence to go on. It does seem more prevalent with burl woods, but I do such a small percentage of burls that I've never been able to prove the wood movement one way or another. 

I think I'll wait longer next time before finishing a burl. Thanks for your "research"!


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## Robert111 (Dec 20, 2011)

SCR0LL3R said:


> If I can potentially get a smoother finish by letting it cure longer I will certainly try, but until now I have almost always sanded my CA right after applying, put the pen together and then put it in a case... not once ever had any outgassing issues by doing this, nor have I ever smelled CA when sanding. Perhaps I am using more accelerator than you guys or giving it a few more seconds between coats.



+1
Robert


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## Robert111 (Dec 20, 2011)

I'm not seeing these problems. I've looked at all my pens that have been in cases over as long as 4 months and can detect no deterioration of the CA finish.

I do know that the white spots occur when I have too thick a layer of CA and it with accelerator. To prove this, drop some CA on a scrap to form a puddle, then hit it with CA. Turns white almost immediately.

I always apply thin CA with a thick wad of paper towel about 3"  square. To make the wad, I start with two thicknesses of CHEAP paper towels [less cotton the better], and fold it in half four times. 

I put a good quantity of thin CA on a corner and apply it to the wood while turning the pen with my left hand slowly. Then I apply more with the next corner of the wad, then again with the third corner of the wad. I then discard the wad to the floor and hit the wood with a mist of accelerator from about a foot away, again turning the wood with the left hand. Then I quickly wipe the misted wood with a clean piece of cheesecloth rapidly back and forth. Finally I turn on the lathe and spin the wood at about 1200 holding the cheesecloth against the wood to warm it (perhaps expelling volatiles?).

I repeat this process with 4 more wads for a total of 5 wads, or 15 coats of thin CA. 

NOTE: Each used wad can be reused once because the back side of each wad will not have any CA on it. 

Then I do the usual sanding.

Hope this helps.


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## Robert111 (Dec 20, 2011)

_I do know that the white spots occur when I have too thick a layer of CA and it with accelerator. To prove this, drop some CA on a scrap to form a puddle, then hit it with CA. Turns white almost immediately._

I meant to say, "hit it with accelerator."


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## Texatdurango (Dec 20, 2011)

To those not having any problems, good for you, keep doing what you are doing, as for me, I learned my lesson a few years ago when I made two Emperor pens and put them in those black leatherette boxes and shipped them to Singapore that afternoon. 

The customer was not pleased when he opened the boxes to see that on one of the pens the gold plated nib was more white than gold and returned them. Luckily he was a repeat customer and understood that these things happen so I simply replaced the pens. It was an expensive lesson however with the original postage, his return postage and the postage to resend the replacement pens back, if memory serves it cost me close to $100 in postage.

To me, this isnt about how good you are at applying CA, how many coats you apply, what type of applicator you use or how you hold your tongue when sanding, it's about CA being sanded before it's fully cured or not.


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## Timbo (Dec 20, 2011)

While I can't say I notice a difference between the finish on pens I turned in the last  few days , and those I turned 4 months ago, I suspect that the difference could be small enough to be not noticeable without doing a side-by-side comparison.  I don't use bushings when I apply CA, so I do need to clean up the CA that flows over the edge of the blank.  I use a sharp barrel trimmer by hand to do the cleanup.  What I have noticed is if I wait more than a day before performing this step, the CA seems harder and I'm more likely to experience a chip out.  If I do it right away, the CA seems more waxy, and slices away from the ends pretty easily.  That seems to support the curing time theory.  However, I use to use thin CA to finish, I noticed that it seems to set up pretty hard immediately.  I even stopped using it as a "sealer" coat under the medium CA.

I have 2 Jack Danial's sierra tubes already turned from the same blank ready to finish.  I think I'll experiment by completely finishing one right away, but wait a week to do the final sanding and polishing on the other.  This thread is bring out my curiosity.


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## ctubbs (Dec 20, 2011)

I thought it was just me, but after reading this thread, well I don't know.  I made a cigar with spalted hackberry roughly a year ago and finish sanded it as soon as the finish was applied as usual.  I noticed recently that the finish was not as all shiny any more.  This has been a daily carry pen since it was built.  Thank you all for this thread.  No longer will I be doing the finish as soon as it is applied.  This community has taught me so much since I was lucky enough to find it.  I could have never have learned so much making all these discoveries on my own.  All you guys, ladies too, are so helpful.  Again thank you and Jeff also.
Charles


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## Texatdurango (Dec 20, 2011)

One thing just occured to me, the majority of pens where I noticed a difference after a period of time were the heavy burls, segmented pens like the jigsaw puzzle pens, American flag pens, pens where I used several pieces of wood in a pattern.  It would be very hard to feel or see any shrinkage on a solid wood blank but would be an easy thing to see where you might have dozens of different woods or "joints" on a blank.


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## bitshird (Dec 20, 2011)

I have bee letting my barrels sit at least over night or longer since George brought this point up a few years ago, I do know I lost 2 pens that were almost 2 years old due to fog, they were Brazilian Ebony, I swear it's related to Wenge, deep grained and leak oil like an AMF Harley. but now we just let them sit. 
A nice advantage for going Acrylic!!!


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## EBorraga (Dec 20, 2011)

I also wait atleast a day, sometimes more before I put a CA finish on it. Of course i'm never in a hurry to make a pen. It usually takes me 3-4 days to make a wood pen. I've also found that you won't sand through the finish as easy when waiting atleast a day.


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## PenMan1 (Dec 20, 2011)

Nice work, Dennis!

I believe your observations, without question.

I just finished a pen that had a brass button CA glued to Dogwood with thick CA. I allowed the glue to degas for one week before casting the pen barrel in Polyester Resin. The "3D" button still fogged over in the recessed area. I am sure this was from the CA not fully cured!


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## arcwick08 (Dec 21, 2011)

I think there are so many variations person to person, technique to technique that nailing anything down will be a challenge. I, for example, do 12 coats of medium CA, spraying with pump-action accelerator and rubbing with a paper towel between each coat. Of the issues I have with CA finishes, fogging has not been one of them.


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