# After Slimlines, what next to try?



## Old Bessie (Sep 11, 2015)

I am very new at Pen turning. I have only used slimline kits. They are coming out decent. I would like to try a different style pen but am limited as to cash to buy the bits and bushings. So I'm kind of snookered.

What would be the most universal drill size and bushings to attempt a different style pen? or pens? I do have an ok drill index but lack the metric sizes. 

I am not a cheapskate, rather in a financial state that limits my "luxury/entertainment" budget.

Any solid input from this forum would be greatly appreciated.

If this is in the wrong place, please forgive my ignorance.

And thank you to everyone for all of your wonderful input throughout this site--you make a difference!


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## Ed McDonnell (Sep 11, 2015)

Here's an idea.  Keep working with the slimline kits.  Check the archives for the last couple of Bash / Summer Extravaganza slimline contests where the pens were modified (e.g. the russ fairfield competition and such).  There's a lot you can do with slimlines to really expand your pen making without spending a lot of money.

Then you could see if you can sell some of your pens.  Selling slimlines for $20 isn't going to make you rich, but it will give you cash for new tools and kits.

As a next step up from slims, you could try sierra style pens (for ballpoint) or something like a Virage (roller ball).  They both can be made with imperial drill bits that you might already have in your drill index.  The kits will cost you more than slimlines, but less than the profit on a $20 slimline you sell.

Just one of many ways to try.

Ed


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## ed4copies (Sep 11, 2015)

Will,
It depends on what you would like to make!!

The Cigar pen in chrome is $6 or so and uses standard 25/64" drill bits.  It is a solid performer--I sold hundreds, made almost no repairs.  Great transmission, easy to turn and assemble.  Top and bottom tube--so the same general arrangement as the slim.

Another economical kit is the sierra (and the thousand or so "knock offs").  Again, low purchase cost and pretty reliable mechanics.  This one uses a 10.5mm drill bit, though--not something  you are likely to have.  The OD of the tube is actually .411"or so, so you COULD use 27/64" (.4218").

There are MANY possibilties, these are the two with which I, personally am most familiar.

Hopefully, there will be other suggestions!!

ENJOY!!!

(I typed while Ed was making the above entry---also GOOD input!!)


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## magpens (Sep 11, 2015)

That's a  nice looking pen ! . A slimline without a center band ? . How do you change refills ?

OK, so what's the next step for you ? . Well first off, don't think you are done with slimlines. . You will come back to them in the future . . They are pretty versatile.

In my opinion, the slimline is actually a harder pen kit to work with than the "next steps" that I am going to suggest.

The most universal tube size is probably 3/8" (based on the large number of PSI kits that use that tube size). . But bushings don't have the same universality, not even amongst the PSI kits.

I would say that the 27/64" tube is next (or some might say it should be first) because you find it in the Sierra, Sienna, Gatsby, Mesa, Virage, Pensar, Napoleon, Le Roi Click (and other LeRois), LeRoi Elegant Major, etc., etc.

If I were the teacher and you were the student, I would next introduce you to the Virage Ball Point (not the rollerball).  You can buy the chrome version kit for $6.90 at ExoticBlanks ....

Exotic Blanks :: Pen Kits :: Pen Kits (By Pen Kit Name) :: Virage Kits (All) :: Virage Ballpoint - Chrome

You can do the barrel straight-sided or a little bulged (more pleasing). 

The bushings you will need are the 20A bushings which will work for the Sierra-style kits also, as well as the Pensar and LeRois mentioned.

I think you will find the Virage an attractive pen and you will get considerable satisfaction from making it.

If you have a few more dollars to spend, then the 30 Caliber Bolt Action kits are really easy and rewarding to make.  They were introduced by PSI (Penn State Ind.) three or four years ago and a number of vendors sell them.  But make sure you get the real PSI kits.  There are some imitations (probably not sold in the USA for patent reasons) but they are not as good.  The bushings are not as versatile as the Virage bushings.

So those are my comments.  Feel free to ask me or anyone for additional info.


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## Rick_G (Sep 11, 2015)

Not the wrong place for a question.  Problem here is most pen kits have their own bushings and drill bits and are all slightly different.  The baron and sedona use the same bushings and drill bits.  The Canadiana and Churchill use the same bushings and drill bits.  
There are also numerous versions of the Sierra that use the same drill bits and bushings.  Take a look at the kits that look like a Sierra.  If they use the same drill bit (27/64) you can use the sierra bushings to get it close and then take the bushings out and place the blank between centers and sand to exact dimensions of the hardware.


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## magpens (Sep 11, 2015)

If I could just correct what ed4copies said, the regular Sierra line "officially" calls for a 27/64" drill bit, which is 0.422".  You may have that in your set of drills already.  The Sierra tube OD is actually 0.408" so a metric drill of 10.5mm diameter (0.413") will work (snugly) but why buy a metric drill when you probably already have a 27/64" ?  The 27/64" (0.422") bit is actually a little bit sloppy for the Sierra, but the next smaller standard drill 13/32" (0.406") is just a shade too small, although you could get by with it if you follow the drilling by the careful use of a rattail file to enlarge the hole a wee bit.  I only mention this in case you have a drill set that increments in 1/32" rather than 1/64".



ed4copies said:


> Another economical kit is the sierra (and the thousand or so "knock offs").  Again, low purchase cost and pretty reliable mechanics.  This one uses a 10.5mm drill bit, though--not something  you are likely to have.  The OD of the tube is actually .411"or so, so you COULD use 27/64" (.4218").


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## Dan Masshardt (Sep 11, 2015)

Buying a few bits and bushings isn't that big of a deal in the long run - especially ones that are used frequently. 

   Order yourself these three kits (mostly already mentioned and you'll have a nice solid selection to start.   

1. Cigar  
2. Sierra or equivalent.   
 3. atrax rollerball.  

 These kits can all be reasonably priced and here's the best thing.  They all have economy priced versions and higher end versions with the same tubes and bushings.  

  So if you buy some chrome cigars and turn blanks that are simply stunning, pick up a 2 tone black ti / platinum kit to put them on instead.    

The atrax setup is the same as the Jr line which has some really sweet pens but the atrax is still a solid performer at a great price.  Te Jr gent 2 in chrome is a good value two.


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## CREID (Sep 11, 2015)

I agree with Magpens, the 3/8 seems to be a very popular bit size, at least for the pens that I do. The easiest thing to do is go to a vendor, whether it be PSI or some other vendor, find a kit that looks cool to you and go for it. You will need the bit, bushings, a blank, and a kit. But I think the best advice I can give you is to pick a pen kit that looks good to and you go from there. The one barrel kits are a little easier than the 2 barrel kits in my opinion. And that is a very nice looking pen you have there, be proud of it.
Curt


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## Ric (Sep 11, 2015)

*After Slimline*



Old Bessie said:


> I am very new at Pen turning. I have only used slimline kits. They are coming out decent. I would like to try a different style pen but am limited as to cash to buy the bits and bushings. So I'm kind of snookered.
> 
> What would be the most universal drill size and bushings to attempt a different style pen? or pens? I do have an ok drill index but lack the metric sizes.
> 
> ...



Ric, here I might be able to help you out in my small way, I too am a relatively new pen turner-less than 5 years.  Like you I started on slimline, that what came with my start up package.  Actually that is a good pen to practice acquiring new skills because it is a bit more complicated than  lot of other kits out there.  You learn to be exact in your measurements, which is a good skill to learn.
Now as far as another kit to try out.  Go for the old standby "Euro's or Designer" as P.S.I. calls them.  If you are a concious shopper like me, you look for the sales & bargains.  I have purchased Euro kits for as little as $2.95 (US) each, they still take a 7 mm drill bit, just like the slimline. You may like to purchase bushings though, it does make it easier to get the diameters correct when turning your blanks.  Sure hope this helps.
Sure hope I did this correctly & posted it in the right spot......Ric.


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## Ric (Sep 11, 2015)

Here's another tip for you I just thought of, in reference to metric sizing of drill bits.  Get yourself a "drill bit conversion chart."  Most decent machine shop suppliers will give you one for free.
you would be surprised at the amount of drill bits that are the same size(or very close) in metric & imperial sizing.
EG: 8mm (.3150")  5/16"(.3125")
Quite often I will use a 5/16" bit when the kit calls for an 8 mm bit.
Also do no skimp on drill bits, buy the best quality on you can afford & learn to use oit properly, even the most expensive bit cuts like crap if you don't use it properly.
Sure hope this helps.
I think I might have found the right place to post my comments now.....Ric.


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## CREID (Sep 11, 2015)

Hey Ric
It says that you are from Chilliwack British Columbia. I used to travel to BC and I listened to the local Rock station when I did. Isn't there a band called Chilliwack?
Curt


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## Old Bessie (Sep 12, 2015)

*magpens* That's a  nice looking pen ! . A slimline without a center band ? . How do you change refills ? 

I followed and modified the instructions in the Library here on this Forum.

The nib/tube/transmission/refill all pull out the end rather easily in one piece to change the refill.

Thanks to all of my heroic responders for their input. I will study the responses over and over and make the proper choices based on the information and my money situation, And hopefully expand my wings and try them. Hopefully all of  them--eventually. I am so glad that I received such a response. It makes me so happy that I found this Forum. You guys are all the best and make beautiful pens that I only dream of making.

Thanks to one and all here at the IAP! You are the best!


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## Kiwiturner (Sep 12, 2015)

Old Bessie said:


> I am very new at Pen turning. I have only used slimline kits. They are coming out decent. I would like to try a different style pen but am limited as to cash to buy the bits and bushings. So I'm kind of snookered.
> 
> What would be the most universal drill size and bushings to attempt a different style pen? or pens? I do have an ok drill index but lack the metric sizes.
> 
> ...



I'm somewhat in the same boat. Having recently started turning pens for fun and as a paying hobby (hopefully).
I use the slimline and comfort pens as the kits are very cheap and I have a good local stockists. Native Pens  here in NZ stock a good range and as you can see the kits are cheap. To make things a little less identical I vary the body of the pens from very straight to a more fatboy style pen. I also use a large number of wood species to keep it interesting and provide variety. 
As finances permit I will add to the collection of kits. The Sierra kits get a little expensive so I make a very small number of these. I have a lot of interest in the Bolt Action pens as well but only do these to order as the kits are a little more expensive.

I recently set up a website for clients to view or purchase and supply additional information as well. Pirongia Pens for those interested. It shows some of the pens I'm producing. 
Perhaps one of the most helpful things is to make your own blanks. Doing this means resources can be spent elsewhere. All of my timber is recycled (usually), or picked up off the road side or from building sites that are doing renovation work on older homes. Its amazing what you can find. For example the last pen I show on the website is leaning against the piece of "Blue gum" firewood from my neighbours winter wood supply. Its a really beautiful wood to use.

Suffice to say that even with the cheapest of kits theres plenty that you can make inexpensively and make looka million dollars.

Cheers
ralph


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## Old Bessie (Sep 12, 2015)

*Kiwi Turner*Thanks for sharing your link. Your pens are wonderful. Living in New Zealand must offer you a great opportunity to get your hands on some cool varieties of woods. I get the feeling that the wood found here in Michigan is probably considered just "run of the mill" or "plain". 

I also can add, after viewing the end results of others on this site, I really had to muster the courage to even post a picture of my pen. I am surprised at how kind the comments have been. 

I really give as much effort as I can on each one I turn. I have had a high rate of success in the garage (shop) and even when I have a massive failure I learn from those too. 

I cannot stress enough how thankful I am for all of the responses I have as to this post. I happen to live close enough to two of the national wood stores, and now am contemplating which pen I will turn nest. If successful I will try to share the results. 

Thanks again to all of you! All the best!


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## Old Bessie (Sep 12, 2015)

Just got back from the local Rockler. It seems that they are changing their Pen Supplier very soon. Took advantage of that fact and bought some of the kits and bushings that you have recommended, benefitting from their closing out the "old stock" and got quite a bit for a very good price. Time to get back into the garage-after a nap and a little football on tv. Probably simultaneously.

Thanks again to one and all!!!


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## Kiwiturner (Sep 12, 2015)

Sounds like a very good score. 
Now get turning we want to see yah results :hammer: Piccies please


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## TurtleTom (Sep 12, 2015)

I you have a decent vernier or dial caliper you don't really have to use bushings, just cut till they are the right size.  That's how I'm doing it till I get some bushings made.  The dimensions of all the pens are readily available.
  Drill bits are a must though.  It's amazing how long a good drill index will last.  If you get one with number, fraction and letter drill bits you won't be lacking for any drill bit.


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## Skie_M (Sep 12, 2015)

I started out with the 7mm starter set (variety pack) ...

They gave me 2 each in 2 different finishes of slimline, trimline, designer, and comfort grip pens, with all the bushings required.  They also sent along a 7mm brad point drill bit, which was the matching bit required for all 4 types.  Of course, the actual slimline bushings didn't come with the starter set, they were included with my mandrel (got the mandrel saver).

Consequently, I've been turning some of each, but so far I'm liking the slimlines and comfort pens.

I also went out of my way to pick up some Breast Cancer Awareness pens (quite a bit more expensive, but October is coming up very fast!)  The downside is that my BCA pens run me nearly 20 dollars each for kit, blank, and pouch.


I'ld like to second the opinion that the bolt action pens from PSI may be a good choice, and some Deer Hunter pens (standard 30 cal bolt action kit bushings for both). Got some antler free from local family that hunt for deer.  You use up only half a pen blank for a single pen, so getting matching pairs to show side by side is nice, especially if you're using a very expensive blank.  The downside is that these cost 12 - 18 dollars each, before the cost of the blank.   On the other hand, the bolt action mechanism is quite a novelty .... many people have never even heard of them, much less seen one, and the delight in the eyes of a hunter when he can hold a pen made from the antler of a deer he personally brought down ....


Other cheap, but practical, items offered up by new penturners .... keychains!  At around 1.90 to 2.50 each (may be on sale), you can get chrome or gold plated keychain kits to play with.  You don't actually NEED the full length of the brass tube ... it's something you can modify for personal taste.  What I like to do is make a nice high-dollar (for me) kit, like a comfort kit with gold cross upgrade (24kt gold finish), in Bethlehem Olive Wood, and use the offcut from the end of the blank for a small keychain.  This way, the grain of the wood flows through all three parts.  I sell them as a set for 55 dollars.


Another alternative if you find you have a ton of time, not much cash, and want to fill up the countertop would be to get a bunch of funline kits.  Funlines are not 100% guaranteed by PSI, but they are quite a bit cheaper at around 1.50 per kit.  Get some locally available wood that is cheap (or free) and churn them out for around 15 - 20 bucks apiece.  Experiment with some segmenting and such ....


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## mredburn (Sep 12, 2015)

In regards to the drill conversion chart we have a couple in the Library
here is the one I printed out and taped to my drill index.
http://content.penturners.org/library/general_reference/conversions.pdf


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## Smitty37 (Sep 12, 2015)

Old Bessie said:


> I am very new at Pen turning. I have only used slimline kits. They are coming out decent. I would like to try a different style pen but am limited as to cash to buy the bits and bushings. So I'm kind of snookered.
> 
> What would be the most universal drill size and bushings to attempt a different style pen? or pens? I do have an ok drill index but lack the metric sizes.
> 
> ...


Consider this...while none of them can say on this thread that they WILL do so, if you contact some of the IAP Vendors I think you might find more than one who would be willing to give you a set of bushings if you bought some of their kits.


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## 1080Wayne (Sep 12, 2015)

Old Bessie said:


> *Kiwi Turner*Thanks for sharing your link. Your pens are wonderful. Living in New Zealand must offer you a great opportunity to get your hands on some cool varieties of woods. I get the feeling that the wood found here in Michigan is probably considered just "run of the mill" or "plain".
> 
> Thanks again to all of you! All the best!



It would only be considered `plain` by someone who has not taken the time to explore it . Most species will have wood varying between plain and spectacular , depending upon growing conditions and the part of the tree the wood came from . Keep in mind that the furniture and lumber industries were built upon straight grained nearly knot free wood . Spalt and insect damage were largely considered garbage , although that has changed a bit thanks to the pine beetle . Look for saw mill and furniture maker rejects , storm damaged trees that get cut down , etc as possible sources of less than woods .


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## Kiwiturner (Sep 13, 2015)

1080Wayne said:


> Old Bessie said:
> 
> 
> > *Kiwi Turner*Thanks for sharing your link. Your pens are wonderful. Living in New Zealand must offer you a great opportunity to get your hands on some cool varieties of woods. I get the feeling that the wood found here in Michigan is probably considered just "run of the mill" or "plain".
> ...



I agree with the comments made here. If you saw the state of some of the pieces I aquire you would most likely think that it was firewood. Even driftwood from the beach can yield surprising results. Some of my wood comes from old fence posts that are 60 years old or older, cut from native species. It's like opening a candy wrapper and finding gold in it ... it can be very rewarding as well.


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## Old Bessie (Sep 13, 2015)

Wow! So many replies! As to the wood around the Detroit area, and it is getting much better around here and the bashing of Detroit needs to cease, there are many older homes that are being rehab'ed and I know of a place or two that if I get a chance, and am able to get there, I shall look upon some of these woods with completely different eyes and give them a chance.

I guess I should look at it like this: I once turned a very plain looking piece of wood that, once I got it quite thin, I discovered an incredible grain and significant changes in color. I thought it was a fluke, but perhaps it can happen many more times. Fingers crossed! 

Thanks again everyone!


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## Old Bessie (Sep 13, 2015)

Planning on trying to read the entire site---just tore my Achilles tendon. Gonna be laid up for a bit---but looking forward to getting back near the lathe as soon as I can. 

But have my best pen and blanks already to ship! No worries.


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## Sabaharr (Sep 15, 2015)

Nice job on the slims. I have made a few one piece slims with corian. Now if you want to test your drilling skills that is the way to do it. Drilling a 7MM wide 5" deep hole in half inch square corian and not blowing out the side is a challenge. But it sure shines up pretty. I just could never get use to turning the tip to open and close it and doing it one handed was a real pain.


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## Old Bessie (Sep 15, 2015)

Sabaharr said:


> Nice job on the slims. I have made a few one piece slims with corian. Now if you want to test your drilling skills that is the way to do it. Drilling a 7MM wide 5" deep hole in half inch square corian and not blowing out the side is a challenge. But it sure shines up pretty. I just could never get use to turning the tip to open and close it and doing it one handed was a real pain.



Like these? LOL! Cordless drill and vise done by hand. Less than 5/8" blanks~very slowly and time consuming.


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## Smitty37 (Sep 15, 2015)

Old Bessie said:


> Sabaharr said:
> 
> 
> > Nice job on the slims. I have made a few one piece slims with corian. Now if you want to test your drilling skills that is the way to do it. Drilling a 7MM wide 5" deep hole in half inch square corian and not blowing out the side is a challenge. But it sure shines up pretty. I just could never get use to turning the tip to open and close it and doing it one handed was a real pain.
> ...


A lot of Corian is 1/2 inch isn't it fairly easy to glue 1/2 inch pieced together to get 1 in square blanks? If you did that wouldn't they be a lot easier to drill?


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## Skie_M (Sep 15, 2015)

Yeah, but I hate the idea of drilling right down a glue line ....


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## Smitty37 (Sep 15, 2015)

Skie_M said:


> Yeah, but I hate the idea of drilling right down a glue line ....


I have seen such bonds where you could not even see the glue line when the pieces bonded were the same color.


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## Old Bessie (Sep 15, 2015)

If I have learned one thing in this life it is this: "Patience is a virtue". 
Quite possibly the only virtue I will ever attain. Life has thrown me many a curve and knuckleball, but like the Tortoise, I just keep plugging along. 
The idea of gluing 4 together has been in my mind, I just worry that CA glue wouldn't keep a solid bond and I have had a bad time or six with epoxy, just saying. It may be in the future though, I just started this a short while back and if I were rich I could do so much more with better equipment and such. I think you guys would be shocked if you saw the rudimentary tools I use. I'm just thankful for what I have and for being able to do so from time to time. Thanks for the input!


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## Old Bessie (Sep 15, 2015)

Question: Are there any 7mm or standard drill sized Fountain pen kits that are nice but inexpensive?  I would love to make a pen for my Mother for Christmas. She always wrote with a fountain pen. I tried using it and got ink all over my hand when I tried to write with it. Just couldn't get the hang of it. I could draw pretty well with it just not write. Something that I could turn for under $20 with an awesome blank would be ideal. I look at the usual places, in fact Rockler by me was/is closing out their current supplier and is going to PSI, but I was a day late and a dollar short. Some gentleman came in and pretty much cleaned them out. Joel at Rockler was not sure how long it would be until their pen stocks would be replenished. 

**Also will this turning of a fountain pen or assembling it be exceedingly more difficult than slimlines?


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## Skie_M (Sep 16, 2015)

Short answer, nope ... there aren't any 7mm fountain pens ...


I posted this a while back over in the fountain pen forum.



Skie_M said:


> I've been finding that I need to stay away from the larger sized fountain pens ... I just don't have the equipment to make them without taking chances.  Once I get a half inch #1MT drill chuck for my lathe, I should be able to drill them OK, but for now I'm limited to 10mm.
> 
> In this range, I've found that PSI offers 3 kits that I can make.
> 
> ...




So ... 10mm is very close to a 25/64ths inch bit...  You'ld just want to push the bit in and out a few extra times to ream the hole just a TINY bit larger for a 10mm tube to fit nicely.  Going to a 27/64ths is just a bit too much wiggle room...  the 25 is BARELY smaller than the 10mm.

From what I can tell, the 10mm is the smallest fountain pen offered by PSI.  I haven't looked around at everybody else's offerings yet, so I'm sure someone out there has got something nice that's a tad bit smaller.  I've read somewhere that someone made an 8mm tube fountain pen kit, but I haven't gotten any details on it yet.


Last, but not least, PSI has a brand new product in their line that I'll definitely be ordering this week ...  It's a fountain pen kit (5 kits in the pack for 12 dollars) ... just nibs, a short section/finial and a tube.  You'll want a Grabber mandrel for closed end turning.  There's no ink cartridge, no refill, no converter .... just the nib.  You MUST dip this pen in order to write with it.



edit-  Oh yeah, as for difficulty .... nope, not any more difficult than slimlines.  Just requires larger bits and bobs.  Take your time, use sharp tools and good common sense, and have fun!    Assembly is EXACTLY the same kind of drill ... line stuff up and press with even gentle pressure.


I should also point out ... you may want to line things up with your fountain pen a bit more than with other pens ... the nib has a definite "face" to it, and you want the clip to line up with it as well to make it comfortable to hold and write with, so press the lower first, then the lower side of the cap ... attach the cap to the finial and set the clip where you want it .... remove the cap from the finial and press the cap finial with clip to attach it in permanent position.


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## Smitty37 (Sep 16, 2015)

Old Bessie said:


> Question: Are there any 7mm or standard drill sized Fountain pen kits that are nice but inexpensive?  I would love to make a pen for my Mother for Christmas. She always wrote with a fountain pen. I tried using it and got ink all over my hand when I tried to write with it. Just couldn't get the hang of it. I could draw pretty well with it just not write. Something that I could turn for under $20 with an awesome blank would be ideal. I look at the usual places, in fact Rockler by me was/is closing out their current supplier and is going to PSI, but I was a day late and a dollar short. Some gentleman came in and pretty much cleaned them out. Joel at Rockler was not sure how long it would be until their pen stocks would be replenished.
> 
> **Also will this turning of a fountain pen or assembling it be exceedingly more difficult than slimlines?


There are a number of great fountain pen kits available for less than $20.  In addition, there are a number of roller ball kits with conversion to fountain pens easy and cheap. Nearly all of them use either fractional drill bits or metric that are very close to a fractional size and can be substituted.  Check the vendors on here.  Even the PSI kits are often found a little cheaper here from resellers than from PSI.


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## Sabaharr (Sep 16, 2015)

> A lot of Corian is 1/2 inch isn't it fairly easy to glue 1/2 inch pieced together to get 1 in square blanks? If you did that wouldn't they be a lot easier to drill?


 
But where is the fun in that?


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