# Large order and big problem



## Ulises Victoria (Sep 23, 2013)

Hello all.
I have an order of 45 and maybe 50 pens for a local college.
Mi customer chose a Pignut hickory wood after seeing one pen I had made before.
So I ordered enough blanks of Pignut Hickory from Scott Butler. He sent me a completely different wood. In photo the one on the right is the wood he sent the first time and to the left the "new" Pignut Hickory. He said that its the same wood but cut from different parts of the tree. Ok. I am not knowledgeable enough to argue that. So I told my customer that the PH on the left is what I had available and he said no problem. Now my BIG problem is that about 30-40% of the blanks I have turned has exploded when I am near the end of turning. I am using a 3/4 gouge that I (think) keep sharp. What do you think my problem is? I have used several tools like that one that you change the inserts, the round type. (don't remember its name atm).
I'm desperate. Although I have plenty of time to finish the order, I am worried about this wood proble. Any help will be immensely appreciated.


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## ttm7 (Sep 23, 2013)

thin ca glue inside and outside as you turn 
maybe that will help


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## TJECON (Sep 23, 2013)

Ulises Victoria said:


> Hello all.
> I have an order of 45 and maybe 50 pens for a local college.
> Mi customer chose a Pignut hickory wood after seeing one pen I had made before.
> So I ordered enough blanks of Pignut Hickory from Scott Butler. He sent me a completely different wood. In photo the one on the right is the wood he sent the first time and to the left the "new" Pignut Hickory. He said that its the same wood but cut from different parts of the tree. Ok. I am not knowledgeable enough to argue that. So I told my customer that the PH on the left is what I had available and he said no problem. Now my BIG problem is that about 30-40% of the blanks I have turned has exploded when I am near the end of turning. I am using a 3/4 gouge that I (think) keep sharp. What do you think my problem is? I have used several tools like that one that you change the inserts, the round type. (don't remember its name atm).
> I'm desperate. Although I have plenty of time to finish the order, I am worried about this wood proble. Any help will be immensely appreciated.


 
Looks like you are cutting perpendicular to the end grain on the new stock???? Try using 240 grit sandpaper to complete the shape instead of a gouge


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## walshjp17 (Sep 23, 2013)

Have you thought of stabilizing the blanks?  If you do not have the equipment to do it, others here do.

Also, is the wood dry enough to turn (approx. 10 - 12%)?  Often wood we get from folks like Scott is still a bit on the green side and while turning a green bowl may not be a problem, turning a green pen may pose different issues.


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## jcm71 (Sep 23, 2013)

Make sure your tubes are completely covered with glue before you insert them in the blank.  I use craft foam to do that with good results.  How tight is the fit between your tubes and blanks?  If there is a visible void between the blank and tube after you glue the blank in, you can tamp down some sawdust into the void and then secure it with thin CA.  Irregardless of that seal the ends of your blank with thin CA before turning.   On average, how thin have the blanks been when they exploded?  Just starting out or close to the bushings?  If close to the bushings try switching to a skew and/or as suggested earlier sand down to the bushing and/or seal the outside of the blank with thin CA.  At what speed do you turn?  Try getting it up to 3500 RPM or so if not already.  Congrats on the order.


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## NittanyLion (Sep 23, 2013)

It looks like your new blanks are cross cut.  For these, if you are having trouble, they really should be stabilized.  Try to find someone local who can do this for you, or soak them in CA. I do not like turning crosscut wood.....too many catches.  The best way to turn these is a sharp skew.  Good luck!


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## ed4copies (Sep 23, 2013)

NittanyLion said:


> It looks like your new blanks are cross cut.  For these, if you are having trouble, they really should be stabilized.  Try to find someone local who can do this for you, or soak them in CA. I do not like turning crosscut wood.....too many catches.  The best way to turn these is a sharp skew.  Good luck!



Agree completely, and would add as you get to final shape, use 200ish grit sandpaper.  Use thin CA OFTEN to keep the piece together.  Yes, it would be better to stabilize, if you have the time.  I would also use a skew rather than a carbide tool, if you are proficient with the skew (touches only one spot on the blank and attempts to cut, the square carbide is a scraper, that touches a quarter inch at a time---difficult on a cross-grain blank).

The wood looks like the first ones you did were cut with the grain, these are cross cut, so yes, they will look (and turn) very different (ly).

Ed


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## joefrog (Sep 24, 2013)

You may also want to try an Easy Wood Tool.  Those carbide cutters are great, but be warned, they will spoil you.


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## Ulises Victoria (Sep 24, 2013)

Thank you all for your answers. Actually I have been thinking about getting a stabilizing equipment. For now, I think I will do the sanding to size method, since most breaks happen when I'm getting close to the bushings. I started using the Easy Wood Tool, and my feeling is that this tool only worsens the problem. Anyway, since I am still at the beginning of making the order, I will try to convince my client to switch to a more noble wood such as bocote or zebrawood. I just turned a couple of Sedonas with these woods to show to my client and they turn much more faster and easy than the Pignut.
Thanks all for your time and input.


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## raar25 (Sep 24, 2013)

Why dont you return the wood and ask for a new batch that has grain which runs lengthwise.  These will always be a problem. Not to mention any thermal variation in the pen after you make them may result in some cracking down the road.


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## maxwell_smart007 (Sep 24, 2013)

Same wood or not - if the customer is expecting the one you showed them, the new one will be a surprise. 

You may want to check and see if it's a good surprise before you turn 50 of them!


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## Ulises Victoria (Sep 24, 2013)

raar25 said:


> Why dont you return the wood and ask for a new batch that has grain which runs lengthwise.  These will always be a problem. Not to mention any thermal variation in the pen after you make them may result in some cracking down the road.



Thank you for your input. 
I live in México, with a shipping address in Texas. 
I doubt the supplier will accept paying for the shipping charges from here, and for me, it might be even more expensive to return the wood than what I paid for it.


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## Ulises Victoria (Sep 24, 2013)

maxwell_smart007 said:


> Same wood or not - if the customer is expecting the one you showed them, the new one will be a surprise.
> 
> You may want to check and see if it's a good surprise before you turn 50 of them!


Of course I will check with him before doing anything different.


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## maxwell_smart007 (Sep 24, 2013)

Ulises Victoria said:


> maxwell_smart007 said:
> 
> 
> > Same wood or not - if the customer is expecting the one you showed them, the new one will be a surprise.
> ...



Mexico, eh?  As an aside - do you know of any good Mexican internet sources for Ancho and Pasilla chile peppers?   I want to make Mole rojo, and it's hard to find these peppers around here!


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## Justturnin (Sep 24, 2013)

Have you reached out to Scott to see if he had any more blanks similar to the original?


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## Ulises Victoria (Sep 24, 2013)

Maxwell... I'm sorry but no. I don't eat peppers or any hot stuff at all. Sorry can't help.

Edit: Try this site. They have both chiles.

http://www.melissas.com/Products/Categories/Chiles-Fresh.aspx

Justturnin: Yes... and he's out of them.


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## Ed McDonnell (Sep 24, 2013)

Someday when you are not under time pressure you should try turning a crosscut piece of zebra wood.  The chatoyance of crosscut zebrawood is spectacular (use some boiled linseed oil before applying your final finish to bring out the best look).  You need to use a shearing cut, not scraping when cutting wood with the grain perpendicular to the axis of rotation.  A shearing cut is best achieved with a skew or gouge.

Ed


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## SteveG (Sep 24, 2013)

A potential problem with cross cut blanks is that the end grain is spread across the length of the pen. So if completely dried and stabilized, it is just that: Stable. If not fully dry or the pen is used where the ambient humidity is very low, you might get splits all along the length of the pen. Not a good result, particularly with a large order. I agree with raar25 and strongly suggest going back to get long grain blanks from your supplier. You do not want to wake up at night in a cold sweat, dreaming of RE-doing 45 pens!
Steve


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## mhbeauford (Sep 24, 2013)

Looks like X-Cut, I dry to 7% or so and stabilize most all of my X-Cut blanks, they shatter very easily, and catch easily. Else while still pretty thick soak with thin CA, cut with a very sharp skew and soaking again occasionally as it gets thinner. Sand the last bit down to size. Hope this helps. X-Cuts can be beautiful with lots of chatoyance and pattern in them.


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## Ulises Victoria (Sep 24, 2013)

Ummmm sorry... what do you guys call CHATOYANCE? Couldn't find a translation on Google.
And... crosscut is the same as diagonal cut?


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## walshjp17 (Sep 24, 2013)

Chatoyance is a word from the French that means 'cat's eye'.  If is an effect on materials (gems, wood) that gives the appearance of a cat's eye.  The wood appears to have waves or ripples in it in certain light conditions but is as smooth as a baby's @$$.:wink:


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## kovalcik (Sep 24, 2013)

Ulises Victoria said:


> And... crosscut is the same as diagonal cut?


 
Grain direction (pen blank standing on end)
Straight cut grain: |||
Diagonal cut grain: /// (Pretend that is close to a 45 degree angle)
Cross cut grain: === 

Here is a link to a pdf on Don Ward's site that shows the different cuts on Zebra wood (See figure 3):
http://www.redriverpens.com/pdf%20files/three%20slimline%20zebrawood%20pens.pdf

Hope that helps.


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## Ulises Victoria (Sep 26, 2013)

Well the good news is that my customer saw a Padauk pen and he loved it. I just ordered 50 3/4x3/4x5 blanks from woodturningz at $.95 each. Best deal I could find. This will diminish my profit, but I will have 50 pens out there with my name on them.


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## plano_harry (Sep 26, 2013)

I was pushing hard on a large order of slims and was cracking purpleheart way too frequently.  I switched from CA to gorilla glue and the problem went away.  CA was quicker, but I wasn't getting a good bond and the expansion of the gorilla glue filled all the gaps.

Harry


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## Ulises Victoria (Sep 27, 2013)

I use 5min epoxy. I just LOVE Gorilla glue, but I've found that sometimes it pushes my tubes out, so I need to somehow clamp the ends of the blanks to prevent this. Maybe you have some tips on this, Harry?


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## Tim'sTurnings (Sep 27, 2013)

When I used Gorilla Glue I kept the tubes in place with rubber bands.
Tim.


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## Ulises Victoria (Sep 28, 2013)

Aaahh. Sometimes the easiest solution needs to be rubbed on your face 
Thanks Tim. Excellent tip.


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## 1080Wayne (Sep 28, 2013)

Tubes push out when one end of the tube is filled with expanding glue - most likely the end pushed into the tube first . Remove the excess glue with a screwdriver or similar tool right after positioning the tube in the blank , and you shouldn`t have a problem .


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## plano_harry (Sep 30, 2013)

Yes. Since I was doing a large order, I folded a sheet of wax paper like an L and placed the vertical part against the fence on my table saw, laid the glued blanks on the paper; when I had them all on, I folded the paper up (now a U) and placed the straight edge of a board against all the blanks and did a quick clamp on the whole batch.  You have plenty of time to do 20-30 before they start to move.

In my little assembly line, I used the dental wax to plug the tubes, swabbed the hole with an oral swab from the drug store (cut down sponge on the end of a stick) dipped in water; rolled the tubes in the gorilla glue, popped them in the hole and laid it on my wax paper.  For efficiency, I was wetting about 10, then gluing, then on to the next group of 10.  All my blanks were numbered so I didn't have any problem with matchup.

I hope that helps.  If you have a helper you could really do this process fast.

Harry

Rubber bands should work.  There is not a lot of force, but the tube will often move if not restrained.  





Ulises Victoria said:


> I use 5min epoxy. I just LOVE Gorilla glue, but I've found that sometimes it pushes my tubes out, so I need to somehow clamp the ends of the blanks to prevent this. Maybe you have some tips on this, Harry?


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## sailing_away (Sep 30, 2013)

I converted over to using Sumo glue a few years ago. I have not had one blow apart since.  Even when working with cross cut woods.  Gorilla glue works just as well but foams a little more.  Just make sure you lightly sand the tube and work the glue into both ends of the blank.


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