# Buffing-- kicked up a notch!



## Texatdurango

If you like your buffing finishes on your CA finished or acrylic pens and are content with the shine they give you then read no further.

However if you want to kick the gloss up a notch you might consider trying this.....

1. Visit Caswell plating
2. Order a few *Canton* flannel buffs. These are GOOD, HIGH quality buffs, not your run of the mill Harbor Freight buffs or those found at Lowes or Home Depot.

3. Order a stick of "Plastic" buffing compound (fine)
4. Order a stick of "Plastic-Glo" (ultra fine - dry grade) 

Take your tripoli and white diamond and set them in a drawer somewhere out of the way where they will be safe for a long time, because you probably won't use them again! Well, I actually still use mine, I have two buffers sitting side by side and have all four compounds set out with their respective buff. With the buffers sitting side by side, it’s easy to see the difference when you do a pen with white diamond then move over to the Plastic-glo ultra fine compound!

I have been using these buffs and compounds for over a year now and am tickled pink with them and think they have improved the shine of my pens tremendously. Another thread about buffing reminded me that someone asked me a while back about the buffs I used.

Edit: To clarify, I use the plastic-glo "ultra-fine" before the plastic "fine" compound.  Sounds backwards but after calling Caswell, they confirmed that the plastic "fine" gives a finer polish than the ultra fine.  Different manufacturers naming their compounds is a bit confusing.


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## PenTurnerfromMaine

Thanks for sharing this information, I'll have to give it a try.


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## gwilki

Tks much, George. Merry Christmas!


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## rjwolfe3

Woots thanks George!


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## just_call_me_dusty

Thank you very much for sharing.  I wish I would have known before this selling season.  But now I know.  Thanks again.


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## tim self

Thanks for the info.  The prices are great also!


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## hilltopper46

George,

I got to wondering about something ... before you apply this technique, what treatment has the surface received?  MM up to 12000 or ??????


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## Texatdurango

hilltopper46 said:


> George,
> 
> I got to wondering about something ... before you apply this technique, what treatment has the surface received? MM up to 12000 or ??????


This is not a technique, it is not a step as in part 4 of 5, it is just mentioning alternative buffing supplies that members may not be familiar with.

I don't use micro mesh so I usually buff right after sanding.  Depending on what I am finishing, I might stop sanding at 600, 800 or 1,000.

I just posted this because when most members think of buffing, they think of tripoli and white diamond just because that's what most pen making sites and woodworking stores sell.

There are better alternatives, this is just one!


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## jleiwig

Well I decided to take your advice and ordered 2 buffs and the compounds.  I just need to finish setting up my buffing station.


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## jleiwig

Just to bring this up again, Caswell is currently out of the 8" Canton flannel buffs. The girl I spoke to was unsure when they would be in again, but it looks to be late January or early February.  They are refunding my order and I asked to be notified when they would be back in stock again. Just a heads up for anyone that orders as I believe their website does not show whether an item is in stock or not.


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## philkessling

George, 
Thanks for the info. Received my buffs and polishing compounds on Friday. Just in time to use over the weekend. Much better then the white diamond that I had been using. 
Also, started using your technique for my CA finishes (letting them sit overnight before sanding and buffing).For once, I am not sanding through the finish and getting high gloss shines every time. Your step by step pen turning post is one of the best even for those of us who have been turning for years.


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## turbowagon

Looks good.  Does anyone know where I can get the arbor hardware required to screw into the single-wheel 2MT mount that comes with the Beall system?


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## jleiwig

Caswell finally got in their 8" canton buffs, so I placed my order Friday. Still haven't heard anything.


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## rlofton

*Buffing BAM!*

I kinda feel like Flip Wilson.  Except he said "The devil made me do it" and I way "George made me do it."  Works so far!


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## jleiwig

rlofton said:


> George made me do it


 
Didn't work for me when I told the wife. :biggrin:


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## Texatdurango

jleiwig said:


> Didn't work for me when I told the wife. :biggrin:


 
It doesn't work with wives!  With the wives, you have to say things like... "Well, all the other guys are doing it"  or "All the other guys have one" or the best one.... "I'm probably the only guy who doesn't have one yet".  

The last one you say as you are dropping your head and walking off slowly.  If you do it right, 9 times out of 10 she'll say something like... "Well, how much is it anyway?"  To which you ALWAYS reply... "I don't know, probably not much though" :biggrin:


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## jleiwig

Lately I've just been living by the motto:  It's better to ask forgiveness than permission. :biggrin:

It's been chilly in the house a couple times, but nothing too bad after I do something manly and "save" her.  LOL! :biggrin:




Texatdurango said:


> It doesn't work with wives! With the wives, you have to say things like... "Well, all the other guys are doing it" or "All the other guys have one" or the best one.... "I'm probably the only guy who doesn't have one yet".
> 
> The last one you say as you are dropping your head and walking off slowly. If you do it right, 9 times out of 10 she'll say something like... "Well, how much is it anyway?" To which you ALWAYS reply... "I don't know, probably not much though" :biggrin:


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## Texatdurango

jleiwig said:


> Lately I've just been living by the motto: It's better to ask forgiveness than permission. :biggrin:
> 
> It's been chilly in the house a couple times, but nothing too bad after I do something manly and "save" her. LOL! :biggrin:


 
Hey, nothing wrong with that approach.  A movie and dinner, and they forget all about it!  "Course, you have to factor in the cost of the movie and dinner in with the tool(s) to determine if the overall cost is worth it! 

Le't not discuss too many details on a public forum though, there are a few of _"Them_" on the forum and we don't want them learning all our secrets! :wink:


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## BigguyZ

George,

How do you mount the buffs?  Do you have it on a dedicated buffer/ grinder, or on a lathe system like the Beall?

Also, how much material does the polish take off?  I'm getting pretty good on getting a near-perfect fit on my finishes, but a higher gloss is always welcome!  

Lastly, you said you buff straight from 1000 grit?

Thanks,
Travis


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## skywizzard

Texatdurango said:


> Hey, nothing wrong with that approach.  A movie and dinner, and they forget all about it!  "Course, you have to factor in the cost of the movie and dinner in with the tool(s) to determine if the overall cost is worth it!
> 
> Le't not discuss too many details on a public forum though, there are a few of _"Them_" on the forum and we don't want them learning all our secrets! :wink:



George, 

You have it wrong.  The ladies on this forum already know the tricks we use. But,  they have an advantage.  I bet when they want to add something to their shop, their spouses are all in agreement.  I have never seen a man turn down the opportunity to get a new tool!


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## jleiwig

Just curious, how long has it taken you guys to get stuff from Caswell?  I ordered on the morning of the 22nd, and I haven't heard anything yet as to processing, shipping, or anything.  The only thing I know for certain is that my money is out there.


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## Daniel

I only recently found the advantage of buffing pens rather than Micro Meshing them. I have wanted to get a better finish than what I have been seeing. So I just placed a $66 order for compounds buffs and all that other stuff you never meant to buy. So if this does not work I'm giving my wife Georges e-mail address. Just kidding. I never did get around to actually getting tripoli and white diamond compounds so I fixed that, I also got the compounds for plastic and am anxious to see if it gets closer to what I am looking for. I am becoming a bigger and bigger fan of acrylics for a lot of my pens so hopefuly this will help me stay in that jewelry store look range with my finishes. Buffing sure beats the tar out of all that sanding time wise. even if the finishes do not get better I don't think I will go back.


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## Texatdurango

BigguyZ said:


> George,
> 
> How do you mount the buffs? Do you have it on a dedicated buffer/ grinder, or on a lathe system like the Beall?
> 
> Also, how much material does the polish take off? I'm getting pretty good on getting a near-perfect fit on my finishes, but a higher gloss is always welcome!
> 
> Lastly, you said you buff straight from 1000 grit?
> 
> Thanks,
> Travis


 
I have two dedicated buffers. One the left of one is metal buffing, the right for tripoli. The other has two different buffs, one using plastic compound, the other using high gloss plastic compound.  I do have the Beall setup that I removed the center buff from but it's covered in plastic hanging on a wall peg somewhere since I haven't used it in about a year.

As fine as these compounds are, I doubt the material removed is even measurable.

Yes, I buff straight from 1000 grit, sometimes I will buff ebonite after 800 grit sanding.


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## Texatdurango

Daniel said:


> I only recently found the advantage of buffing pens rather than Micro Meshing them. ....


 
What's micro mesh? :biggrin:


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## DozerMite

Those grinder guards are a great way to remove those unwanted fingers.
Not to mention not being able to get to the portion of the wheel you should be buffing on. That has got to be uncomfortable and no way to get a good stroke (cut or color) either.


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## Texatdurango

DozerMite said:


> Those grinder guards are a great way to remove those unwanted fingers.
> Not to mention not being able to get to the portion of the wheel you should be buffing on. That has got to be uncomfortable and no way to get a good stroke (cut or color) either.


 
And yet it works just fine for me and feels so comfortable! :tongue:


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## jleiwig

I've got an old 6" grinder that I took both sides of the sheilds off.  I'm going to mount the 8" buffs that I ordered to it, and mount it on a spacer so the buffs will clear. I need to go turn a pen tonight because they are supposed to be delivered tomorrow!


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## BigguyZ

What RPM are those buffers- 3400, or 1100-1700?  I think the dedicated buffer is the ideal way to go, so you don't have to bother swapping out the mandrel for the beall system...



Texatdurango said:


> I have two dedicated buffers. One the left of one is metal buffing, the right for tripoli. The other has two different buffs, one using plastic compound, the other using high gloss plastic compound.  I do have the Beall setup that I removed the center buff from but it's covered in plastic hanging on a wall peg somewhere since I haven't used it in about a year.
> 
> As fine as these compounds are, I doubt the material removed is even measurable.
> 
> Yes, I buff straight from 1000 grit, sometimes I will buff ebonite after 800 grit sanding.


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## jleiwig

According to most sources the 3450 rpm motors, like a grinder, are preferred over slower 1725 rpm motors.  If I remember correctly you ideally want to be in the 7000-8000 surface feet per minute category.  I have an old old arbor setup and a 1725 motor, but I'm going to use the 6" grinder for the extra rpm.


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## jttheclockman

Texatdurango said:


> If you like your buffing finishes on your CA finished or acrylic pens and are content with the shine they give you then read no further.
> 
> However if you want to kick the gloss up a notch you might consider trying this.....
> 
> 1. Visit Caswell plating
> 2. Order a few *Canton* flannel buffs. These are GOOD, HIGH quality buffs, not your run of the mill Harbor Freight buffs or those found at Lowes or Home Depot.
> 
> 3. Order a stick of "Plastic" buffing compound (fine)
> 4. Order a stick of "Plastic-Glo" (ultra fine - dry grade)
> 
> Take your tripoli and white diamond and set them in a drawer somewhere out of the way where they will be safe for a long time, because you probably won't use them again! Well, I actually still use mine, I have two buffers sitting side by side and have all four compounds set out with their respective buff. With the buffers sitting side by side, it’s easy to see the difference when you do a pen with white diamond then move over to the Plastic-glo ultra fine compound!
> 
> I have been using these buffs and compounds for over a year now and am tickled pink with them and think they have improved the shine of my pens tremendously. Another thread about buffing reminded me that someone asked me a while back about the buffs I used.


 

George

Do you have a link for the buffing materials you are talking about???   I too would like to give this a try. I read Daniels report and I too may give up micromeshing and go right to buffing. Will it take out small swirls that may have occured when wiping on the CA in wood blanks???  Thanks.


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## jleiwig

jttheclockman said:


> George
> 
> Do you have a link for the buffing materials you are talking about???  I too would like to give this a try. I read Daniels report and I too may give up micromeshing and go right to buffing. Will it take out small swirls that may have occured when wiping on the CA in wood blanks??? Thanks.


 
The Buffs:
http://www.caswellplating.com/buffs/canton.htm

The compounds about halfway down the page:
http://www.caswellplating.com/buffs/compound4.html


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## jttheclockman

jleiwig said:


> The Buffs:
> http://www.caswellplating.com/buffs/canton.htm
> 
> The compounds about halfway down the page:
> http://www.caswellplating.com/buffs/compound4.html


 

Thanks. Just placed an order.


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## Texatdurango

jttheclockman said:


> George
> 
> Do you have a link for the buffing materials you are talking about???  I too would like to give this a try. I read Daniels report and I too may give up micromeshing and go right to buffing. Will it take out small swirls that may have occured when wiping on the CA in wood blanks??? Thanks.


 
I really can't answer this because I don't know what kind of swirls you are talking about.  Once I get to 1000 grit, the entire blank has already been leveled out and is already starting to take on a sheen.  You shouldn't see any swirls at all by then.

Last year I bought a good supply of Novus plastic scratch remover #2 and #3 and need to use it up so I don't always go straight from 1000 grit to buffing.  I might just leave it on the lathe and use the #2 and or #3 depending on the blank and the mood I'm in.


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## Daniel

I agree with what George says in that the surface of my blanks are sanded and already smooth. I started with sanding to only 400 grit. the Buffer with Tripoli and it still did a good job of removing any scratch marks most of hte time. But not always, and always is much better than most of the time. Since I still own lots of MM I started sanding to 400 grit then hittng the blanks with the first three grades of MM. Much better results at removing all scratches all the time. The polish is very nice even though I think it could be better still. My only other concern is how well it will wear. but that is a concern I have with any polish.


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## Daniel

George, The bars of compound that are under the buffs in your photo. Are those the bars you get from Caswell? and if so are they the regular or jumbo bars?
I was thinking they where expensive but I was also picturing bars like the little green one you have there.


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## BigguyZ

jleiwig said:


> According to most sources the 3450 rpm motors, like a grinder, are preferred over slower 1725 rpm motors.  If I remember correctly you ideally want to be in the 7000-8000 surface feet per minute category.  I have an old old arbor setup and a 1725 motor, but I'm going to use the 6" grinder for the extra rpm.



Really?  I thought I remember people saying that a slower speed is better.  Otherwise, I have an old HF grinder I can add the buffs to and be done with it...

Also, The buffing doesn't add a film polish, does it?  I thought the puprose of buffing was to abraid the surface with a finer pattern and that is what creates the shine.  So the finish that's left is a CA surface that's ultra smooth and free of scratches...  Is that incorrect?

Thanks,
Travis


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## Texatdurango

Daniel said:


> George, The bars of compound that are under the buffs in your photo. Are those the bars you get from Caswell? and if so are they the regular or jumbo bars?
> I was thinking they where expensive but I was also picturing bars like the little green one you have there.


 
On the left machine are the bars from Caswell plating.  They are about 2x2 and about a foot long, a lifetime supply for the average turner.


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## BigguyZ

Texatdurango said:


> On the left machine are the bars from Caswell plating.  They are about 2x2 and about a foot long, a lifetime supply for the average turner.



Sorry for the questions, but this interests me a lot.  It looks like you have a sewn buff and a loose buff- is that correct?  do you find the sewn on better for the regular polish and the loose for the ultra polish?

Also, what RPM is your buffer?

Thanks,
Travis


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## Daniel

Texatdurango said:


> On the left machine are the bars from Caswell plating.  They are about 2x2 and about a foot long, a lifetime supply for the average turner.



Now that all depends on whether I can figure out how to get the cord on my buffer to reach all the way to my Lincoln setting in the driveway!!!!
Honestly I was shocked to see the size of them in reference to something. Since I have that same orange buffer I know just what I am looking at. I'm gonna have to reinforce my work bench.


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## Daniel

I also have a sewn buff on the tripoli side of my buffer, mainly because that is what tripoli says to use with it. I have a non sewn buff on the other side because that compound says to use it with a loose buff. I have not yet tried to find out things like what using tripoli with a loose buff woudl do. I just follow directions. Mainly the one from my wife that says don't screw it up.
In practice I see it as the sewn buff that has the backbone to remove scratches, it is the loose buff that puts the shine to everything.



BigguyZ said:


> Sorry for the questions, but this interests me a lot.  It looks like you have a sewn buff and a loose buff- is that correct?  do you find the sewn on better for the regular polish and the loose for the ultra polish?
> 
> Also, what RPM is your buffer?
> 
> Thanks,
> Travis


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## jttheclockman

Texatdurango said:


> I really can't answer this because I don't know what kind of swirls you are talking about. Once I get to 1000 grit, the entire blank has already been leveled out and is already starting to take on a sheen. You shouldn't see any swirls at all by then.
> 
> Last year I bought a good supply of Novus plastic scratch remover #2 and #3 and need to use it up so I don't always go straight from 1000 grit to buffing. I might just leave it on the lathe and use the #2 and or #3 depending on the blank and the mood I'm in.


 


We might be talking 2 different things here. I am talking wood with CA applied. Usually I will get a very minute swirl from the applicator of CA. This all comes out with the first step of the micromesh. I thought you were talking about skipping micromesh and going right to the buffing compouind. Am I in left field here and I misunderstood you??  I do that alot


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## jleiwig

jttheclockman said:


> We might be talking 2 different things here. I am talking wood with CA applied. Usually I will get a very minute swirl from the applicator of CA. This all comes out with the first step of the micromesh. I thought you were talking about skipping micromesh and going right to the buffing compouind. Am I in left field here and I misunderstood you?? I do that alot


 
Are you saying that you don't do any sanding other than the micromesh?  I believe that george starts earlier, like at 600 grit through 1000 or 1500 grit.


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## Texatdurango

BigguyZ said:


> 1. Also, The buffing doesn't add a film polish, does it? I thought the puprose of buffing was to abraid the surface with a finer pattern and that is what creates the shine. So the finish that's left is a CA surface that's ultra smooth and free of scratches... Is that incorrect?
> 
> 2. It looks like you have a sewn buff and a loose buff- is that correct? do you find the sewn on better for the regular polish and the loose for the ultra polish?
> 
> 3. Also, what RPM is your buffer?
> 
> Thanks,
> Travis


 
1. Buffing is nothing more than sanding... really fine sanding or to be more correct... "material removal", and just like using micro mesh, you have to sand with courser grits beforehand!  Have you ever used pumice stone or rotten stone on a really nice piece of furniture with a shellac, lacquer or even polyurethane finish?  These are fine and very fine powders, when mixed with a bit of liquid parafin and rubbed in with a soft cloth will bring out a shine that is unbelievable!

Buffing is the same thing only the buffing machine replaces the hand rubbing.  The compounds are basically the same thing only the powders are mixed with a wax type emulsion to hold the powder or "grit" together in a stick form for easy application to the buffing wheel.

So when you hear someone like me say I buff rather than use micro mesh, I am simply saying I prefer a different type of grit application.  To me, buffing a pen is a lot quicker and easier than running through the micro mesh grits and the results are basically the same to me.

2. The wheels are made of different material and the buffs with the looser sewn seams allows the wheel to provide a smoother lapping action with the compound used.  The heavier stitched buff provides a firmer base and I use it with the coarser compound to remove fine scratches.

3. Both my buffing machines run at 3500 rpm.  I think speed is a personal preference and there is no RIGHT or WRONG speed.  While going through school I worked in a music instrument repair shop and in four years I buffed hundreds of band instruments and remember that I preferred a different buffing speed than the other repairman and we both got good results.


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## ranchonodinero

*buffers*

Hey George,
Which buffing machines do you use?  I'm thinking about getting a dedicated buffer instead of using the jet mini.

Thanks,

Marty


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## Texatdurango

ranchonodinero said:


> Hey George,
> Which buffing machines do you use? I'm thinking about getting a dedicated buffer instead of using the jet mini.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Marty


 
Hey Marty, Long time no hear!

If you look at post #23 you will see my machines, one is an old delta 6" bench grinder and the other is a $40 buffer from Harbor Freight.

Just came back inside from doing you know what to a pound of greens!  Shop sure smells nice! :biggrin:


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## jttheclockman

jleiwig said:


> Are you saying that you don't do any sanding other than the micromesh? I believe that george starts earlier, like at 600 grit through 1000 or 1500 grit.


 


When I make a wood pen I use my skew and get to the point I use one sandpaper and that is 800 grit. After that 6 coats of thin CA. Sometimes I use the plastic bag trick for the last coat so I do not get the tiny swirl marks you get with a paper towel. Sometimes I am too lazy and just hit with the paper towel. Then it is right to micromesh and a quick hit with each step using water as a lubricant. The first pad of the micromesh system is the critical one. It takes those little swirls right out and its off to the races.  I never use sandpaper after I applied CA. If I have to for some unknown reason strip the CA off I use acetone and take it right back to starting blocks. 

Then I finish off with a plastic polish.

I will try adding the buffing or I will try eliminating the micromesh and try the buffing or I may eliminate a few pads of the micrmesh I will have to experiment to see what gives the best look. 


I do use a buffing system when working with other forms of woodworking. Especially if I am using wooods from the rosewood family. They are tight grained and they sure do polish up nicely. But there is a big difference making a pen with these woods and making clocks and other items that don't get handled as much.


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## jleiwig

Got my buffs and compounds from Caswell today. Not very happy with them.  .

The buffs and 2 foot long bars were stuck in a 3x3x12" box.  I paid them 12.01 to ship this itty bitty box.  The two compounds were wrapped in newspaper, and only after searching for a couple minutes did I find where they had written the product number on the wrapping.  If I had not paid attention I would not have known which compound was which.  The buffs have wrinkles and creases in them, that I only hope with centrifical force will come out.  Overall for darn near $50 worth of stuff I'm very disappointed.


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## DozerMite

jleiwig said:


> Got my buffs and compounds from Caswell today. Not very happy with them. .
> 
> The buffs and 2 foot long bars were stuck in a 3x3x12" box. I paid them 12.01 to ship this itty bitty box. The two compounds were wrapped in newspaper, and only after searching for a couple minutes did I find where they had written the product number on the wrapping. If I had not paid attention I would not have known which compound was which. The buffs have wrinkles and creases in them, that I only hope with centrifical force will come out. Overall for darn near $50 worth of stuff I'm very disappointed.


 

And the best part...

You will not see a difference from the Trip./WR to those. Especially if any steps are skipped. The human eye can only see a certain range of shine and those products are merely for polishing and not buffing and have to be used with the proper wheel to achieve those results.

You could have went with a different supplier and for about half the price and they offer free shipping.
Just my $.02.


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## jleiwig

We'll just have to agree to disagree on that point then.  

Tripoli is a much coarser compound than either of these compounds IMHO.  I've used tripoli before...have you used these exact compounds? 



DozerMite said:


> And the best part...
> 
> You will not see a difference from the Trip./WR to those. Especially if any steps are skipped. The human eye can only see a certain range of shine and those products are merely for polishing and not buffing and have to be used with the proper wheel to achieve those results.
> 
> You could have went with a different supplier and for about half the price and they offer free shipping.
> Just my $.02.


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## DozerMite

jleiwig said:


> Tripoli is a much coarser compound than either of these compounds IMHO. I've used tripoli before...have you used these exact compounds?


 
My point exactly. Tripoli is a buffing compound. WR is a buffing/polishing compound. Those are polishing compounds.

I haven't used those exact compounds, but used the same type under another brand name.

I will put my finish with the Trip/WR up against any finish you can accomplish with any material. I will tell you though, I buff and polish daily as part of my job and also do it at home for all the local car guys.


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## Mac

Thanks again George, I have seen your pens in person and know that you strive to make the best pen you can everytime, and don't mind helping others do the same.


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## Texatdurango

DozerMite said:


> My point exactly. Tripoli is a buffing compound. WR is a buffing/polishing compound. Those are polishing compounds.
> 
> I haven't used those exact compounds, but used the same type under another brand name.
> 
> I will put my finish with the Trip/WR up against any finish you can accomplish with any material. *I will tell you though, I buff and polish daily as part of my job and also do it at home for all the local car guys.[/*quote]
> 
> Dozermite, I don't get it, if you consider yourself a buffing expert, why not share some of your expertise rather than sitting back waiting for others to post in your field of expertise then taking pot shots at what we say?
> 
> It's really easy to sit back making comments like... _You could have went with a different supplier and for about half the price and they offer free shipping.
> Just my $.02._
> 
> If you have a source for quality buffing supplies at half the price Caswell charges with free shipping why not share the information?  How much more effort would it take to include a website link?
> 
> I assume by trip/wr you are referring to tripoli and _white rouge_.  I'm sure there are different grades of white rouge but all I have ever seen is considered a polishing compound since it has no abrasives so how it using that any different than the polishing compound mentioned above?  By your own admission you have not tried the compound sold by Caswell so how can you make comparisons?


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## jleiwig

Texatdurango said:


> ? By your own admission you have not tried the compound sold by Caswell so how can you make comparisons?


 
Because it's a lot easier than to be helpful.  Trust me...I'm an expert on it George! :wink:

I too buffed daily for a living for a year.  Started off in grinding, then moved to the buffing department.  Hot crappy work believe me!

That being said, I'm not about to make comparisions to something that I haven't even tried, because that would make me look like a jackass. :biggrin:


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## leestoresund

*buffing*

I'm still trying to find the lucky guy who's wife helps him in the buff.:tongue:

Lee


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## DozerMite

Texatdurango said:


> DozerMite said:
> 
> 
> 
> My point exactly. Tripoli is a buffing compound. WR is a buffing/polishing compound. Those are polishing compounds.
> 
> I haven't used those exact compounds, but used the same type under another brand name.
> 
> I will put my finish with the Trip/WR up against any finish you can accomplish with any material. *I will tell you though, I buff and polish daily as part of my job and also do it at home for all the local car guys.[/*quote]
> 
> Dozermite, I don't get it, if you consider yourself a buffing expert, why not share some of your expertise rather than sitting back waiting for others to post in your field of expertise then taking pot shots at what we say?
> 
> It's really easy to sit back making comments like... _You could have went with a different supplier and for about half the price and they offer free shipping._
> _Just my $.02._
> 
> If you have a source for quality buffing supplies at half the price Caswell charges with free shipping why not share the information? How much more effort would it take to include a website link?
> 
> I assume by trip/wr you are referring to tripoli and _white rouge_. I'm sure there are different grades of white rouge but all I have ever seen is considered a polishing compound since it has no abrasives so how it using that any different than the polishing compound mentioned above? By your own admission you have not tried the compound sold by Caswell so how can you make comparisons?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I HAVE stated this information before, but I'm not in your club, so nobody pays any attention.
> A simple search for supplies will give many suppliers for buffing. It's your choice on which to use.
> If you read my post, I stated that WR is a buffing/polishing compound. YES, it does have abrasives in it, very fine, but there. Different manufacturers use different particle sizes and a good quality contains uniform sized particles. This alone eliminates those sudden scratches that people think is caused by something else.
> I have received a lot of messages about buffing/polishing for more info. I'm glad to help, but you obviously don't need my help.
> And I don't claim to be an expert, just experienced.
> 
> No, I have not purchased those exact compounds from Caswell, but I have used the same compound from another supplier. I have tried going through the finer compounds and without a light guage or magnification, you will NOT see a difference.
> 
> And as for claiming to skip Trip/WR and going to a polishing compound and receiving better results is just not possible when you stop at 800-1000 grit paper. Put your finish up against mine and prove me wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> jleiwig said:
> 
> 
> 
> Because it's a lot easier than to be helpful. Trust me...I'm an expert on it George! :wink:
> 
> I too buffed daily for a living for a year. Started off in grinding, then moved to the buffing department. Hot crappy work believe me!
> 
> That all depends on the material and especially the set up.
> 
> 
> That being said, I'm not about to make comparisions to something that I haven't even tried, because that would make me look like a jackass. :biggrin:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, your comments do that for you.
> 
> 
> If anyone would like help with the buffing/polishing process, feel free to PM me. I'm glad to help if I can.
Click to expand...


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## Texatdurango

*"I HAVE stated this information before, but I'm not in your club, so nobody pays any attention."*

Which club is that? The local IAP chapter or the IAP itself? These are the only "clubs" I belong to pertaining to pen turning!


_"If anyone would like help with the buffing/polishing process, feel free to PM me. I'm glad to help if I can."_


OK, PM sent!


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## bradh

BigguyZ said:


> Really?  I thought I remember people saying that a slower speed is better.  Otherwise, I have an old HF grinder I can add the buffs to and be done with it...
> 
> Also, The buffing doesn't add a film polish, does it?  I thought the puprose of buffing was to abraid the surface with a finer pattern and that is what creates the shine.  So the finish that's left is a CA surface that's ultra smooth and free of scratches...  Is that incorrect?
> 
> Thanks,
> Travis



You need to be at a decently fast speed to get a good buff. The important factor is the surface speed. Different diameter buff wheels need to run at different rpm's to end up at similar surface speeds.

    You are correct that the buffing smooths the surface, moving from the coarser scratches from sanding to much finer scratches from the buffing. Many buffing compounds are made of fine grit embedded in a soft carrier compound. The abrasion comes from the grit, but usually you get some of the carrier compound left on the pen. This is a problem if you do not completely fill an open pore wood.
    I wipe down the buffed blanks to remove the carrier material before I apply my final coat of Ren wax.


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## jleiwig

DozerMite said:


> No, your comments do that for you.


 
Pot meet Kettle!


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## Daniel

Dozermite, As far as I can tell you jumped in on the third page of a thread to offer entirely contradictory information. Even I see holes in it.
If there is a half price source, post it, link and all otherwise you are just making unsupported claims.
You claim the difference will not be visible after George has already posted that he has seen a difference while polishing a blank. in other words he buffed a blank that had been buffed with White Diamond and could see the difference as he buffed it with these compounds.
You challenge everything George has had to say in recommending these products and then want to cry you are not a part of the club. I also have no idea what club you are referring to, what half price source you know about, or have any hand on examples or experiences you have to share. It has nothing to do with any club. your credibility does not hold up for me period.
You are also coming across as pretty whiny and pathetic right about now, but that might just be my judgment. And I will add that George has a tendency to irritate me with his comments well above average for members here, So if he has a club I am anything but in it. As far as I can tell your involvement in this conversation wreaks of provoking George. No idea why.


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## jleiwig

Daniel said:


> Dozermite, As far as I can tell you jumped in on the third page of a thread to offer entirely contradictory information. Even I see holes in it.
> If there is a half price source, post it, link and all otherwise you are just making unsupported claims.
> You claim the difference will not be visible after George has already posted that he has seen a difference while polishing a blank. in other words he buffed a blank that had been buffed with White Diamond and could see the difference as he buffed it with these compounds.
> You challenge everything George has had to say in recommending these products and then want to cry you are not a part of the club. I also have no idea what club you are referring to, what half price source you know about, or have any hand on examples or experiences you have to share. It has nothing to do with any club. your credibility does not hold up for me period.
> You are also coming across as pretty whiny and pathetic right about now, but that might just be my judgment. And I will add that George has a tendency to irritate me with his comments well above average for members here, So if he has a club I am anything but in it. As far as I can tell your involvement in this conversation wreaks of provoking George. No idea why.


 
I just checked about 8 pages of his posts and I can find no link, no source, nor anything relating to a company for cheaper buffing supplies than Caswell.  

As a matter of fact, now that I think about it, every post I read of his in regards to buffing was really kind of insulting to the original poster.  I guess he doesn't like it when someone comes along with a different way of doing things then he does? 

I researched for the canton flannel buffs for a bit because when I initially ordered them Caswell was out of stock.  They had the cheapest price on the buffs by far.  Even Grizzly couldn't touch their price, so I waited until they were in stock again and ordered them. 

I will post a full UNBIASED review of the products as soon as I get done testing them.  I have a blue lapis trustone pen that I haven't been very happy with the finish on, and it's finished through all the micromesh grits and plastic polished.  I plan on giving that a buff this weekend to see if it does indeed give a better shine than what I've done in the past. I will also test a CA finished piece as well.  I think it may be a tool handle though, not a pen.


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## DozerMite

Daniel said:


> Dozermite, As far as I can tell you jumped in on the third page of a thread to offer entirely contradictory information. Even I see holes in it.
> If there is a half price source, post it, link and all otherwise you are just making unsupported claims.
> You claim the difference will not be visible after George has already posted that he has seen a difference while polishing a blank. in other words he buffed a blank that had been buffed with White Diamond and could see the difference as he buffed it with these compounds.
> You challenge everything George has had to say in recommending these products and then want to cry you are not a part of the club. I also have no idea what club you are referring to, what half price source you know about, or have any hand on examples or experiences you have to share. It has nothing to do with any club. your credibility does not hold up for me period.
> You are also coming across as pretty whiny and pathetic right about now, but that might just be my judgment. And I will add that George has a tendency to irritate me with his comments well above average for members here, So if he has a club I am anything but in it. As far as I can tell your involvement in this conversation wreaks of provoking George. No idea why.


 

George said it, so it HAS to be TRUE. Sorry, I'm whining again. Guess that makes me pathetic.
As I said above...
YOU put your finish on and I'll put MY finish on with whatever products we choose, and we'll place them side by side. That is MY proof. Nothing more. I'll let my finish speak for itself.


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## clarkhall

George,

Got the Canton flannel buffs and the Plastic and Plastic-glo buffing compounds.

I have been finishing pens with 4 or 5 coats of BLO/CA with no sanding or micro mesh after.

The finish is almost glass-like without any further polishing.

Tried tripoli and white diamond, but they seemed to be a step backward.

Hut Ultra Gloss liquid plastic polish improves the finish somewhat.

Given the above scenerio, would you use the Plastic and then the Plastic-glo buffing compounds instead of the Ultra Gloss, in addition to it, or go right to the Plastic-glo?

Clark


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## Texatdurango

Dozermite, I'll just recap my thoughts then back out of this thread since it's just going down the toilet now!

In the first sentence of the very first post I started out by saying... _"If you like your buffing finishes on your CA finished or acrylic pens and are content with the shine they give you then read no further."_

This should have given you a clue that I wasn't all about telling people how to do something or force anything on anyone, just suggesting something to look into if they were interested or not happy with their finishes.

In post #8 I again pretty clearly pointed out that this is just how I do something, just another way of getting the job done and that there were compounds out there other than tripoli and white diamond.

I showed a photo of my setup because someone asked about it, not that I was telling anyone what they should do.

I think that's about when you jumped in with...



DozerMite said:


> Those grinder guards are a great way to remove those unwanted fingers.
> Not to mention not being able to get to the portion of the wheel you should be buffing on. That has got to be uncomfortable and no way to get a good stroke (cut or color) either.


 
Your post was meant to take a shot at me clear and simple and added nothing to the conversation. In your next post you did the same thing finishing your post with....



DozerMite said:


> You could have went with a different supplier and for about half the price and they offer free shipping.
> Just my $.02.


 
All that did was to get everyone curious as to where the supplies could be had, to which you have yet to reply, and I think I know why!

So there you have it, if all you want to do is argue, do it with yourself because I'm outta here!  I posted this because a few people had expressed interest in finding other buffing materials than were available at Harbor Freight or Woodcraft, not to start silly arguments over who has the best finish on their pens!


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## babyblues

George, you're absolutely right, I use blue rouge (sounds like a contradiction I know, lol) after white diamond and what a difference!  I also got my compounds from Caswell.  They send you a bar big enough to last 20 years, lol.  Tripoli, white diamond, red rouge and blue rouge can also be found at Lowes or Home Depot or Sears.  I've seen them all three places.  The rouge compounds are used for buffing soft metals like gold and they work wonders on CA and/or plastic.  There's a noticable difference when I go from tripoli to white diamond, but the difference between white diamond and red or blue rouge is just as noticable.  I can see it in the reflection of my shop light.


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## Texatdurango

babyblues said:


> George, you're absolutely right, I use blue rouge (sounds like a contradiction I know, lol) after white diamond and what a difference! I also got my compounds from Caswell. They send you a bar big enough to last 20 years, lol. Tripoli, white diamond, red rouge and blue rouge can also be found at Lowes or Home Depot or Sears. I've seen them all three places. The rouge compounds are used for buffing soft metals like gold and they work wonders on CA and/or plastic. There's a noticable difference when I go from tripoli to white diamond, but the difference between white diamond and red or blue rouge is just as noticable. I can see it in the reflection of my shop light.


 
Glad to see you found a better shine!  If I didn't have a lifetime supply of compound already I'd probably give the blue rouge a whirl.

Actually, this was the whole point to this thread to begin with, to let folks know that there are finer compounds available than white diamond or white rouge.  Most Woodworking stores and vendors carry tripoli and white diamond and leave it at that *BUT* there are finer compounds that can be used.  

Some are called buffing compounds, some are called polishing compounds, some say they are for brass or stainless steel, gold, silver or whatever.  But as we pen makers have found, these work well on plastics and CA glue finishes just as nice.

Some try to make the distinction between buffing and polishing but I say it's irrelevant since from grabbing the first piece of 400 or 500 grit sandpaper, your goal is to progressively work up through finer and finer grits, the finer grits being called buffing compounds then on to polishing compounds.


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## philkessling

George,
Please disregard my earlier post. I jusr read your original post and realize that the ultra is used first! Validates what I discovered while using it.


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## Freethinker

DozerMite said:


> YOU put your finish on and I'll put MY finish on with whatever products we choose, and we'll place them side by side. That is MY proof. Nothing more. I'll let my finish speak for itself.



I have very much enjoyed reading this thread, (except for the recriminations and claims of superiority). 

I am always looking for ways to achieve just that liiiiitle bit of extra gloss and *knock your eyes out* shine on both acrylics and CA finished wood, and it seems George may have found one. I thank him for the tip, and plan on going to Caswell and trying their buffs and compounds. 

Dozer, respectfully, you seem to have chosen to not heed the words of the very first line in this thread;
_
"If you like *your* buffing finishes on your CA finished or acrylic pens and are content with the shine they give you then *read no further"*._

Also, it is a bit <cough cough> odd to claim to have a supplier that sells the same items for half the price of others, yet offer no accompanying link to said supplier. 

I look at the hobby of penturning as more of a collaborative -*Let's all help each other along the journey*- type of undertaking than one of --"I'll take tools less involved or expensive than yours and still I will turn out stuff that's better'n what you can do!"-- competition.

Just saying.


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## nativewooder

This has been an interesting read except for the parts where it sounds like 10 year old kids arguing about their toys.  A lot of good info and some not-so-good info.  Most of my experience has not been gathered by making pens, but by polishing lacquer finishes on bowls, vases, and platters.  Most of the professionals I know wet sand with MM and mineral spirits and wind up with automotive polishes and swirl removers.  But, it doesn't matter what you apply if you use too much speed or pressure!  I don't use CA as a finish because of the fumes and I can get just as good a finish with lacquer by letting it cure.  The longer the cure, the harder it gets.  Different strokes for different folks.


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## BigguyZ

Well, I finalluy pulled the trigger on this one!  I'm looking forward to seeing how buffing changes my process...


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## JamesB

Texatdurango said:


> ... if you want to kick the gloss up a notch you might consider trying this.....
> 
> 1. Visit Caswell plating
> 2. Order a few *Canton* flannel buffs. These are GOOD, HIGH quality buffs, not your run of the mill Harbor Freight buffs or those found at Lowes or Home Depot.
> 3. Order a stick of "Plastic" buffing compound (fine)
> 4. Order a stick of "Plastic-Glo" (ultra fine - dry grade)



Old thread revival.  I finally got a new drill press, do you think I could modify my old Delta 11-950 to be a vertical buffing system using the stuff Texatdurango mentioned?  The distance between the chuck and base is only 10 inches.  I've seen other threads on dedicated lathe systems but I don't have an extra lathe right now.


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## Padre

JamesB said:


> Texatdurango said:
> 
> 
> 
> ... if you want to kick the gloss up a notch you might consider trying this.....
> 
> 1. Visit Caswell plating
> 2. Order a few *Canton* flannel buffs. These are GOOD, HIGH quality buffs, not your run of the mill Harbor Freight buffs or those found at Lowes or Home Depot.
> 3. Order a stick of "Plastic" buffing compound (fine)
> 4. Order a stick of "Plastic-Glo" (ultra fine - dry grade)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Old thread revival.  I finally got a new drill press, do you think I could modify my old Delta 11-950 to be a vertical buffing system using the stuff Texatdurango mentioned?  The distance between the chuck and base is only 10 inches.  I've seen other threads on dedicated lathe systems but I don't have an extra lathe right now.
Click to expand...

Maybe you could modify the 3 on 1 mandrel from Beall systems to work vertically instead of horizontally.  Then I think you'd have a good shot at it working.  Or even the Barry Gross mandrel might work.


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## CharlesJohnson

Thanks George,and all others who contribute to the freindly,caring,helpfull comunity you have built here.All families have uncomfortable moments.I,m proud of the kindness shown in mediating these times.As _I_ have said,I stumbled on the site and you made me feel at home.Been here several times nearly every day sents.Learning lots.Just wish I could remember all the great stuff you all teach.Thank you one and all.Have a good day.


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## Sawdust46

Thanks to Texatdurango for the post.  I just finished my first kitless using the information from your other posts.  Did I do everything like you would have done it?  Probably not but you sure shortened the learning curve.  I appreciate you sharing information.  The IAP members can choose to use it or ignore it.

Keep it up!


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## Quality Pen

What's the "proper" or I suppose optimal way to actually use these caswell buffing sticks?

I'm not sure if I'm being too "wimpy" on the buffing part...


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## avbill

As the bluffing wheel  is turning  you press a small amount into the wheel and your ready to go. 

I spend more time on this part [twice as long]


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## Quality Pen

avbill said:


> As the bluffing wheel  is turning  you press a small amount into the wheel and your ready to go.
> 
> I spend more time on this part [twice as long]


Are you saying that you spend twice as long applying the compound to the wheel or that you spend twice as long buffing your pen compared to the rest of the construction process?

Thanks Bill. Always nice to hear from you!


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## avbill

twice as long polishing the blank at the wheel.


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## robutacion

avbill said:


> As the bluffing wheel  is turning  you press a small amount into the wheel and your ready to go.
> 
> I spend more time on this part [twice as long]



Yeah, I like the term "bluffing" wheel, and that is precisely what it is if, you use it without the correct compounds...!

Sorry mate, I couldn't help myself..! MY turn...!:biggrin:

Cheers
George


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## Quality Pen

Is there any reason not to use the Plastic buffing compound (fine) and "Plastic-Glo" on the same buffing wheel?

Just wondering...


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## hewunch

Yes, there is still compound left and you will not actually be going to a finer grit


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## BKind2Anmls

*Ripples*

I tried buffing my CA finish and ended up with a ripple look in the finish. This was after polishing the CA to 12,000.  It's nothing you can feel but you can see it in the light.  I tried buffing very lightly.  Could it be that I am still buffing too firmly or not firmly enough?  Too long or not long enough? I hold the blank with my thumb and index finger over the ends and buff it with the blank held parallel to the wheel (up and down).


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## Quality Pen

BKind2Anmls said:


> I tried buffing my CA finish and ended up with a ripple look in the finish. This was after polishing the CA to 12,000.  It's nothing you can feel but you can see it in the light.  I tried buffing very lightly.  Could it be that I am still buffing too firmly or not firmly enough?  Too long or not long enough? I hold the blank with my thumb and index finger over the ends and buff it with the blank held parallel to the wheel (up and down).


I can't say for sure, but I would say for sure you should hold the blank with something inside it that you hold -- like keeping it on the mandrel or putting it on a screwdriver.

Otherwise, you're probably just waiting to shoot that blank right out of your hand!


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## nicolanti

This does really seem backwards.  Has anyone else had a similar experience?

Edit: To clarify, I use the plastic-glo "ultra-fine" before the plastic "fine" compound. Sounds backwards but after calling Caswell, they confirmed that the plastic "fine" gives a finer polish than the ultra fine. Different manufacturers naming their compounds is a bit confusing.


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## Skie_M

Yeah, that seems very backwards .... but why are you digging up a 3 year old thread to chat about it?  Feel free to start a new thread conversation! 


Now ... in my case, before taking it to the buffing wheel, I sand up to 12,000 micromesh and then hit it with Meguair's Plast-X followed by Turtle Wax Hard Surface ... (the wax also provides some extra lubricant for the buff to work with), and then buff with the white compound only if I see surface ripples and imperfections that need to be taken down further ... the final buff is clean except for the turtle wax that's rubbed on it right before I turn up the speed to max .... 


Don't forget to head on over to the Introductions forum and make your presence felt ... we also have a little contest for those that post their intros ... every month there's a free box of blanks headed out to a new turner here!


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## nicolanti

Texatdurango uses the ultra fine before the fine.  Does anyone else buff this way?


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## its_virgil

George (Texatdurango) explained why in his original post. He went straight to the horse's mouth and got his answer. Anyone else use his method? I do.
Do a good turn daily!
Don


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## thebillofwrites

nicolanti said:


> Texatdurango uses the ultra fine before the fine.  Does anyone else buff this way?



The way I understand the OP's first post is that the two different compounds are manufactured by 2 different companies. And just because one calls his "Ultra-Fine" does not necessarily mean that it is actually more Fine than the other guys compound. In this case, the "Fine" is finer than the "ultra-Fine" )

But then again, I could be wrong?

Bill


----------



## TonyL

> This does really seem backwards.  Has anyone else had a similar
> experience?


 
Over a year ago, I was on a first name basis with the guy(s) from Caswell. I thought why not try something(s) beyond Tripoli and white diamond. To quote the reps I spoke to (Ya gotta to speak to more than one to ensure the first guy isn't rushing ya off the phone  ), "It sounds backwards but this is the progression." I am paraphrasing, but both volunteered the same warnings to me. I'm fact, in "my" article in the library, I indicate the order with the item/product number; I may even note the confusion. Since using Caswell's products (or the ones they distribute), I tried the ones by Menzerna (and proceeded to drive them nuts with questions. Menzerna USA.  I like the Menzerna compounds, (concidently, I was having one of my guitars repaired, and the luthier had the Menzerna products laying around; he also had Turtle wax polish.). I like the Menzerna slightly better because I find it to leave a little less compound dust. *As I tell all.....there are many folks that achieve an awesome finish with Novus or Tripoli compound.  I am just unable to achieve what they can...so I have to do this* . In fact, I have two guys coming over next Saturday, and both do not use buffers and I am going to have them show me how they do it.

I hope this helps got tired of wet sanding...so I do this. I do wet sand and use MM with M3 and Tru Stone though, but use the attached, for plastics, CA, and Solarez finishes.

Wayne did a exemplary job editing my attachment for the Library. I would encourage one to give that one a look. I just didn't know how to attach it while replying.


----------

