# Laws on using logos



## Kirk Dietrich (Feb 1, 2013)

I debating making stickers to put on some pens. I'm wondering if there are laws against using a company's logo such as Coca Cola, Harley, etc.

Thanks,
Kirk


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## Smitty37 (Feb 1, 2013)

Kirk Dietrich said:


> I debating making stickers to put on some pens. I'm wondering if there are laws against using a company's logo such as Coca Cola, Harley, etc.
> 
> Thanks,
> Kirk


Not laws against using them that will get you arrested and put in jail.  They are Trade Marks and can only be used with their permission which the owners usually do not give away free.

That being said there is a gray area because many of them allow their logos to be sold in decal packages, etc and there is an implied right to use something that you buy.  A lot of model railroad kits come with current and past company logo's and most of them that I put together did not have any disclaimers restricting the use of the logo decals .... so....


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## mredburn (Feb 1, 2013)

If your using Their trade mark to help promote sales of your products you can be sued for copyright infringement. They might not win but what risks can you afford to take?


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## Dan Hintz (Feb 1, 2013)

Kirk Dietrich said:


> I debating making stickers to put on some pens. I'm wondering if there are laws against using a company's logo such as Coca Cola, Harley, etc.
> 
> Thanks,
> Kirk


You're better off asking your lawyer rather than trusting a bunch of random guys on a forum, but...

If you use their logo to make money, you're likely to run into trouble.  Even if you purchase stickers they manufacture (which implies a right of use), using those stickers to embellish a product and then selling the final product constitutes an implied (but false) permission of use from the company.  To use a crass example (so sorry for this, but it makes a strong point)... if I wrap a dildo in Coca Cola stickers and sell it, they will beat me with the lawyer stick.  They made their money on the stickers, but they likely don't agree with the potential damage I'm doing to their company image.  Disney is a big go-getter, as well as Harley Davidson.

In short, you may be fine with one or two personal sales, but I wouldn't advertise it on the web, and I wouldn't do it at any shows.  It's not legal, but you could get away with one or two here and there.

EDIT: I shouldn't even say "If you use their logo to make money"... instead, that should simply be "If you use their logo" period.  This has been tested before with non-profit orgs putting trademarked stuff on T-shirts as giveaways.  The orgs were getting some value out of that image, even if it wasn't directly cash in hand, but donations down the road... the law doesn't think that's acceptable.


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## Smitty37 (Feb 1, 2013)

Dan Hintz said:


> Kirk Dietrich said:
> 
> 
> > I debating making stickers to put on some pens. I'm wondering if there are laws against using a company's logo such as Coca Cola, Harley, etc.
> ...


It depends --- you can buy model railroad car kits that come with logo's - there is no restriction on completing the kits using the logos, and selling them for profit - small hobby shops do that all the time.  

How they react depends a lot on the company - Disney, Harley, professional sports, college sports, etc. make a lot of their money selling logo'd products (tee shirts, sun glasses, leather jackets, etc.) where the logo is an integral part of what they sell - other companies, Coca Cola, Pepsico, etc. make their money selling products and their logo is basically an advertising medium.  Depending on what kind of company it is could have very different attitudes about their logos appearing on a pen.  Some logos already appear so often that it is highly unlikely that the company would notice even if they have an Army of folks watching for violators.


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## mbroberg (Feb 1, 2013)

Rule of thumb.  Do not use a company logo on an item you intend to sell.  Even if you bought the logo (stickers, decals, etc.) you did not buy the right to use the image to enhance the market value of your product.


If you really want to use a logo write the company and ask permission.  You probably won't get it but at least you won't be wondering if you can or cannot use it.  Who knows, maybe you will hit upon a company that sees it as free advertising and gives you written permission.


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## NewLondon88 (Feb 1, 2013)

A pretty good rule of thumb is that if you didn't create the logo, didn't
get permission or the rights haven't expired yet, you have no legal 
right to use the image. (with specific exceptions like fair use)

Some think that if you're not making money, then it's OK. The truth is
that this is only a mitigating factor in how much you'll pay in damages if
you get caught.

Some also say that you are helping the company advertise, therefore
you shouldn't be prosecuted. But it is up to the owner of the image to
decide how it is used, not anyone else.

So yes, there are laws. If you do it and get caught, you start out guilty
and then try to wiggle out of it somehow. But this is exactly and specifically
 what the laws are designed to prevent.

Getting caught and prosecuted is another matter.


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## ashaw (Feb 1, 2013)

I have been working with many companies for he last 3 years.  I use there logos for projects they contract me for.  Before I can started I request a release form for the right to use.  This covers my company and any sub-contract that I use (ie laser engraver, professional printers).  This allows me to use their logo for the given project.  Should I decide to use it for another purpose then I am open for a law suite.  

If I were the use the eagles logo (NFL) for profit.  The cost of using that logo is $1M dollars for the first year.  So if you are planning to use it for your self any only one copy than do not touch it.  

As far as model railroading goes.  The model maker has paid the right of use the logo for that product.  As far as taking the logo from a railcar and putting it on a pen? That is a gray area you need to talk to your lawyer. 


Alan


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## Twissy (Feb 1, 2013)

I wrote to Jack Daniels asking if I could engrave their branding on the pens I make using oak from their pre-used barrels that I only purchase from reputable sources. I also said that it would after all be free advertising for them.
I received a letter from their legal team giving me an emphatic NO!


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## Kirk Dietrich (Feb 1, 2013)

All, thanks. Ya'll kind of verified my suspicions and common sense.

Thanks for ya'll input.

Kirk


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## Haynie (Feb 1, 2013)

1-Evaluate your bank account
2-Decide if it is limitless
3-If the answer to number 2 is no then I would not do it.  These people do not screw around.

Don't mess with logos.  Colors are alright as long as you don't make reference to the brand.  Don't label you green and yellow pen Packers' green or your red and white pen Coca-Cola red.

Why would you want to put logos on the pens anyway?


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## Phillikl (Feb 1, 2013)

I have done quite a bit of research on this, here is what I have come up with thus far (compact version):

If you want to use college logo's; check this site out.

The Collegiate Licensing Company - - Home

For other logo's you must obtain permission (which almost ALWAYS will cost you something; registration fees, annual fees, % of profit, or all of the above). 

If you buy stickers, decals, etc and plan to "repurpose" them for a profit, "most" companies have a trademark disclaimer prohibiting the sale of "repurposed" item.

If you buy stickers, decals, etc and plan to "repurpose" them for personal use (not gifts or non-profit), "most" companies have a trademark disclaimer stating that it is ok. Why else would you buy stickers or decals if you wasn't going to do something with them right?!?

  Food for thought:  Trademarks are expensive, lawyers to protect the trademarks are even MORE expensive.  Companies pay a lot of money for their "brand" and expect a return of investment; in some cases the "brand" is worth more then the company or products itself (i.e. Superman).  

The logo's/brands we would love to be able to utilize could create a profit (could be a large profit for us hobbiest), but comparable to what the brand owner makes per year, will be pocket change.  They jack the price up so small buisnesses will not be able to afford their "useage" fees.  It's easier to monitor 4-5 big companies that can afford the "useage" fees, then X,000's small companies. Also, having only a few manufactors of a specific product allows the "Brand" owner to set desired price of product.

Bottom line (in my opinion, your actions = your responsibility)...  While the chances are probably pretty small that the copyright/trademark police will erect themselves from the grassy knoll to arrest you, why take that risk?  You may even get "busted", spend thousands of dollars on attorney fees, and be completely aquitted; but why put yourself through that headache to begin with?

Just my half pence worth, 
~Kendall

Afterthought:  If you want to dip your toes into trying to get permission to utilize a trademark, contact Hello Kitty (some of the strongest/most restrictive trademarks today)! However, they should play with you, unless they got tired of people harassing them.  I have gotten some pretty intense emails from them all of which ended in them wanting me to pay millions of dollars and pay them like 80% of my profit! LOL RE-DONK-U-LOUS!!!


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## Dan Hintz (Feb 1, 2013)

Smitty37 said:


> It depends --- you can buy model railroad car kits that come with logo's - there is no restriction on completing the kits using the logos, and selling them for profit - small hobby shops do that all the time.


As I said... you can do it, but the law is not on your side if the company chooses to prosecute.  It's illegal to shopift, but you can often get away with it... if you're caught and the shop wants to prosecute, you're SOL.  Small hobby shops get away with it because the cost to track down and prosecute is troublesome... but it doesn't mean they're safe.




In the end, Kirk, you have to decide what feels right to you... if you're okay with the loss of moral ground doing something illegal and are willing to take the risk if caught, knock yourself out.  I speed all of the time, but I know if I get caught I'll be paying the piper.


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## PenMan1 (Feb 1, 2013)

"If you don't own it....you can't clone it. If you sell it for a gain, you'll feel the pain. If its a sticker not licensed for a pen, you'll have to pay again....and again ...and again"!

DON'T DO IT!


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## Smitty37 (Feb 1, 2013)

I seriously doubt that there is a single company that you can write to and get permission to use their registered trade mark(s) free.  That's also rooted in trade mark law - if they let you use it free, that would work against them if they tried to stop someone else using it.


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## PenMan1 (Feb 1, 2013)

I think you are spot on, Smitty. EVEN IF, they give you "express written consent" to use a Trademark for a "one time, specified use", it will like have some fee attached. The company may never invoice you for the use, BUT it is on record as a charge for use.

Otherwise, if they let ANYONE use it "without charge", it opens up a slippery slope for protecting and enforcing a trademark infringement.


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## PaulDoug (Feb 1, 2013)

This gets me wondering, what about using part of a product of theirs, such as, pens made with beer labels, pop cans, old watch faces.  Does this fit in with copyright laws at all?


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## PTsideshow (Feb 1, 2013)

I will add the companies have or use to have adds in the legal newspapers and magazines etc. alerting lawyers to keep an eye out and get paid a bounty for every one with proof and the perpetrators info. More than thousands of sign people and vinyl sticky makers have run a foul of these suited bounty hunters. We had a local lawyer that even went around on the weekend, making the bounty while looking for collectables. A number of people making stickers @ the local trade center even have sign printed up when people ask for certain characters. Calvin&Hobbs, Disney, Bud, Nascar, Coke along with the other ones already listed.
They will always win in court meaning you will loose $$$$$$$$$$ and some for a long time have to continue to pay. It use to be if you didn't charge for a say cartoon character painted on a big rig, they would only tell you to take it off and don't do it again.
I know more than one sign artist that as had problems. One had painted Hargar the Horrible on his VW bus because the sign guy looked like his twin brother. Seems the guy asking the questions about it at the gas station was the creator and copyright owner. the sign guy offered to paint it on anything they guy had. With in the week he got stop orders etc.
You have to remember that the owners generally have lawyer (s) on retainer, the lawyer generally has a legal assistant or secratary they have to pay. They have a standard form letter that they print out and the lawyer signs at the end of the day.
This was explained to me by a lawyer, I know.
The other posts about the disclaimers and such are all true. Including the one about check with your lawyer, and if they say you can use them find a new lawyer. Since he is looking to you to finance his vacation home.
:clown:


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## healeydays (Feb 1, 2013)

Careful on this one.  Some companies will sue at the drop of a hat.

I use to buy old automotive magazines and sell the stories and old ads out the mags (1950s thru 1970s).  I had a couple ads up for Shelby Mustangs from a couple Car & Driver Magazines from the 60s and I got a cease and desist letter sent to me by their lawyers with big threats.  I decided to contact the Shelby American company and talked to their president about the situation.  They stated that even though the ad was in a magazine, they owned the right and wanted me to pay a licensing fee.  When I asked him how much, he said $1500 + 5% of sales.  When I told him that I was selling the ads for $10 each to collectors, a pregnant pause was on the other end of the phone, and he then suggested it might not be worth it then to continuing to sell them.

I got out of that business right after.

Anyone want to buy a couple thousand car ads???


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## Smitty37 (Feb 1, 2013)

*If you have larceny in your heart*

You can do about anything you want.  

One of the reasons piracy is such a big problem and large concern for many logo owners is that there are so many legal use items out there.


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## mredburn (Feb 1, 2013)

One thing that has sort of been stated is, They have to aggressively defend their trademark in order to keep it from becoming public property.  Big company, small company , hundreds of copies or just one copy it doesnt matter. They will, because they have to, aggressively pursue you if they find you.   When I ran the Pawn shop we had Disney reps come through one day,  looking for knock off jewelry charms etc. Seems there was a large amount of pirated pieces turned up in the area and they were looking for any and all things in all the flea markets, jewelry stores, Pawn shops. etc.  They were not looking for authentic product just pirated pieces.


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## LagniappeRob (Feb 1, 2013)

We have a local bakery that supplied most every grocery and convenience store with fried pies that burned down last year ( Hubigs Pies : Home ). These are a New Orleans tradition, and the logo of "Savory Simon" was iconic around here. Since the fire, many people were making items using the logo. The company had to start warning people  ( Hubig's Pies officials warn against unauthorized use of bakery's trademark | NOLA.com )  and later from what I understand went after some too...


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## Dan Hintz (Feb 1, 2013)

PaulDoug said:


> This gets me wondering, what about using part of a product of theirs, such as, pens made with beer labels, pop cans, old watch faces.  Does this fit in with copyright laws at all?


The moment you advertise it as being branded in any way, all bets are off.  It always comes back to how the use of the branded item will have an affect on the image of the company (good or bad).  If it can have an affect on their image, you must get permission.


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## Smitty37 (Feb 1, 2013)

*Fuzzy arena*

I have see a lot of craft items over the years that were made from or using soda/beer cans, old wooden soda cases, orange crates etc.  I've never heard of anyone getting any grief for it.  I've seen old coke cases made into wagons, shadow boxes and any number of other things with the coke logo clearly visible and never heard of the crafter getting any grief.

I've also read that artists have leaway using Trade Marks in orginal art works if it is a single use and the trade mark is incidental to the item.  There is also a lot a leaway in photographs where logos appear in the back ground but are not the object of the photo...

NASCAR might have some problems trying to enforce their rights outside of the USA.


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## Kretzky (Feb 1, 2013)

So what about Postage Stamps?
I'm talking mostly about the "special" ones issued to commemorate a football team, 50 years of 'whatever' etc, etc... They are intended to go onto letters for posting, putting them on pens is repurposing.
eg a postage stamp honoring a Football Team (or anything else) that uses the teams logo/ Jersey etc. Or even "American Birds" the artwork (I suspect) will belong to the artist, the organisation or the Postal service.


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## Smitty37 (Feb 1, 2013)

Kretzky said:


> So what about Postage Stamps?
> I'm talking mostly about the "special" ones issued to commemorate a football team, 50 years of 'whatever' etc, etc... They are intended to go onto letters for posting, putting them on pens is repurposing.
> eg a postage stamp honoring a Football Team (or anything else) that uses the teams logo/ Jersey etc. Or even "American Birds" the artwork (I suspect) will belong to the artist, the organisation or the Postal service.


What goes on a stamp is owned by the postal service - they usually commission an artist to create the design (sometimes they have competition for the designs) but once a design is selected it is owned by USPS.  

Stamps have always served a dual function one as Postage the other related to philatelists and philatelics with many stamps designed strictly for collectors, I seriously doubt that the USPS will try to interfere with any use of stamps.


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## Kirk Dietrich (Feb 1, 2013)

I'm doing a few pens with team and school colors; an NFL team, a college and a high school. The colors look great, blanks made by Brooks. I personally think a team or school logo would kind of cheapen the look of the pen but I know real sports finatics, which I'm giving these to, tend to take pride in their team/school logos and look for a chance to show it off. Knowing that is what made me think about maybe looking into printing my own stickers but my biggest concern was the aesthetics and quality look of the pen with a sticker and then I realized the sticker is really a logo and logos being copyrighted might be of more concern that artistic.

Thanks,
Kirk


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## jmbaker79 (Feb 1, 2013)

As a graphic designer, designers own the first rights to any artwork they make. When commissioned for a project typically there are options for exclusive rights or just the right to use the artwork. Exclusive rights usually cost the company much more money than just the right to use it from the designer. They are allowed to use, or change without permission. This applies to logos mostly as unless a company owns full and exclusive rights to the logo, it is property of the designer, and that company has to pay royalties to the designer for every time they use the logo, per shirt, per commercial, etc....Therefore it doesnt seem fair for a company to pay a designer to use their own logo, while you ( no one specifically ) use that logo at little to no cost! The designers are the ones you need to look over your shoulder for. Seems silly, but you may be surprised how many companies dont own their logo design on paper! If you want to use my bakery's logo though, and make tons of pens with it, I would be happy to write up a copyright release form for anyone!


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## Dalecamino (Feb 1, 2013)

Interesting thread. Apparently stemming from three pens I made with decals recently. Two for a cousin and, one for a friend. None are for sale. What was in my heart, certainly wasn't larceny. I just thought the guys deserved a one off for their devotion to their favorite schools. And, they looked pretty cool, and I liked the challenge. 

I've learned from this venture though. I won't make anymore pens using a logo and, post photos on the internet ANYWHERE. And, I don't think I'll be sharing any information about how I make them, as I have with these pens. I didn't anticipate it turning into a thread like this. Although, I do appreciate the input on the subject. Thank you!

Just in case anyone has any question about the legal aspect of the decals on the dalecamino, they were purchased from Richard Childress Racing in 1995 thru a Chevy dealership in Indianapolis.


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## mredburn (Feb 1, 2013)

Im not so sure it was Chuck, we have this discussion  it seems about every 6 months or so.


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## ashaw (Feb 1, 2013)

As far as postage stamps go.  Any item prior to 1987 (please check on that) is public domain.  After that date it is the post office has Copywrite on it.  As far as government logos.  If it is done by the government it is public domain otherwise the contractor (artist) has ownership.  The military is entirely different.  It took me about 2 years to be allow to use military logos.  No cost to use but thousands of dollars in lawyers fees.  On my Presidential Collection I used the seal of the president.  I spent 3 months with the Whitehouse, and Congress to get approval to use.  Again no cost to use, but if you do not have approval the fine and jail term is pretty stiff.   
There is an executive order which forbids the use of government seals for commercial use.  You have to get approval first.


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## joefyffe (Feb 1, 2013)

What about the blue died maple with Olivewood Horshoe, lazer cut, blanks that lazerlinez sells?


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## Smitty37 (Feb 1, 2013)

*Stamps*

Copyrights on stamps are almost moot since you can now go on line and create your own personal design.  I don't know how much flexibility you have but I'm sure the Postal Service doesn't want to own the design.

Copyrights because of the internet are very much in a flux right now giving lots of people fits.  Particularily those in the music business and authors...It has become a piece of cake to steal copyrighted material.


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## CharlesJohnson (Feb 1, 2013)

I have read a lot of threads on this.  But this is by far the must researched and in depth thread I have been privileged to read.  Thanks to every poster.  First to last.  When ever the last comes. I think if any one asks me to use a logo or trade mark,I will be looking for a cross to keep between me and them.


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## nativewooder (Feb 1, 2013)

I have read about copyrights and trademarks on several forums over the years and whenever an attorney pops up, they definitely put the quietus on the unauthorized use of any item.  IIRC, their average lawsuit settlement was 8 figures.  Wanna play?!


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## Smitty37 (Feb 1, 2013)

nativewooder said:


> I have read about copyrights and trademarks on several forums over the years and whenever an attorney pops up, they definitely put the quietus on the unauthorized use of any item.  IIRC, their average lawsuit settlement was 8 figures.  Wanna play?!


Well if someone won an 8 figure lawsuit against me - fat lot of good it would do them.  I would of course tell them that I'd much rather owe it to them than ever try to cheat them out of it.  

Winning a judgement via a lawsuit and collecting what you've won are two separate matters.  Winning a judgement says you are owed money - but does nothing directly to force payment.  Getting paid usually involves a lot more legal action unless insurance is involved.


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## Kirk Dietrich (Feb 1, 2013)

dalecamino said:


> Interesting thread. Apparently stemming from three pens I made with decals recently. Two for a cousin and, one for a friend. None are for sale. What was in my heart, certainly wasn't larceny. I just thought the guys deserved a one off for their devotion to their favorite schools. And, they looked pretty cool, and I liked the challenge.
> 
> I've learned from this venture though. I won't make anymore pens using a logo and, post photos on the internet ANYWHERE. And, I don't think I'll be sharing any information about how I make them, as I have with these pens. I didn't anticipate it turning into a thread like this. Although, I do appreciate the input on the subject. Thank you!
> 
> Just in case anyone has any question about the legal aspect of the decals on the dalecamino, they were purchased from Richard Childress Racing in 1995 thru a Chevy dealership in Indianapolis.



Sorry, you're not to blame, I didn't even see your thread. A guy posted pics of a nice Alabama Tide pen he made that gave me the idea of putting stickers on some pens I'm making for some sportsfan friends. I had Brooks make me two blanks each of the Saints colors, LSU and my son's high school. As I said in the post above, I was thinking about putting the team/school logos on the pens but then when I was downloading the images, I realized I was taking someone else's art/ideas. I didn't think there would be a problem with using them and giving the pens away so, I thought I'd post it up here to see what the experienced guys thought. I'm not into butting into other people's business, I'm not self-righteous like that, I guess I'm just paranoid.

Kirk


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## Hexhead (Feb 2, 2013)

I had a company called " Foreign Aid". I had business cards made up and because I worked on primarily in the VW's I put their logo on my cards. I had it on there for years, then one day I got a letter from Volkswagen of America that said you will cease and desist using that logo. The rest of the letter explained what they do to me if I didn't

You may need to lawyer up on this one, it seems that when I was going through this someone said companies have to give you a chance to stop before they move to litigation.

RadioShack's (the Tandy Corporation) sued AutoZone, when they were first called AutoShack. The Tandy Corporation said that they use the same fonts that RadioShack made famous, so they changed it to AutoZone.

Harley Davidson even went to court trying to patent the sound of a Harley, but they lost.

It's a suit happy world we live in today, so it's better to be safe than sorry.


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## navycop (Feb 3, 2013)

What about the public domain section of Wikipedia? I think some of their images are "free" to use.
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Main_Page


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## Smitty37 (Feb 3, 2013)

Public Domain is a fuzzy area....it varies from country to country and what is public domain in the USA is not necessarily the same in Canada.  Probably the most well known is the word Asperin....asperin is a generic term for the drug in the USA while Asperin is owned by Bayer in Canada.  

Cellophane is a generic term but started out as the brand name for a specific product. Kleenex has had to work very hard to keep the same thing from happening to them with their tissues. Look how often you see kleenex instead of Kleenex....


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