# Same Kit, Different Vendor, ?!?!



## greenchicken (Mar 20, 2012)

I have been turning pens for many years now and one of the most frustrating issues for me is the various vendors to buy kits from.

For example:  Wood N Whimsey has a nice Cigar pen for $3.55.  Pen State sell the Cigar pen for $7.95.  Then you get Craft Supply that has two Cigars: one for $4.75 and on for $6.90.

Then there is the whole Monet Vs Serra vs Sienna
Or the Trident vs the Patriot vs Polaris

How many people are actually making these kits?  What is the differences?

What do you use?

BTW:

It would be awesome if some wrote up a spread sheet of all the kits with their corresponding bits sizes and bushing.


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## Douglas Feehan (Mar 20, 2012)

Giant Pen Kit List by Daniel Last updated 10/2005
PDF
XLS

Pen Kit Bushings and Tubes by wracinowski 2010 (287kb PDF) Revised 07-23-2010
Woodcraft Pen Kit List (20K PDF) Thanks tnilmerl
Pen Kit Comparison (30K PDF) Thanks rjwolfe3
HUT Bushing Chart from the HUT website
Here is some references in the library I think this will help


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## The Penguin (Mar 20, 2012)

there is a spreadsheet in the library.


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## SCR0LL3R (Mar 20, 2012)

I was just noticing today the huge difference between the quality that I have found in one such example.

I think it's something you are going to have to evaluate on a case-by-case basis. A lot of the styles we use are made by Berea or Dayacom which usually tend to be the more expensive versions. Most of these styles are cloned by other manufacturers as well. Even these two companies make some same styles.

So far I find the price tends to reflect the quality but that's not really something you can count on either.


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## Bigj51 (Mar 20, 2012)

I tend to like all of the kits that Berea makes. I generally order the Titanium or Platinum plated kits for durability. Yes, It costs quite a bit more but that just means I have to be more careful and not waste any of them. I love the Cigar kits but only get the from Beartooth Woods or Arizona Silhouette. Penn State has hosed me way to many times. The only Penn State kit that I really like is the Vertex and I get that one locally from a lumber company.


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## greenchicken (Mar 20, 2012)

Agreed, I avoid Pen State whenever possible.


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## greenchicken (Mar 20, 2012)

Fantastic Spread Sheets.  QUESTION.  On the one by wracinowski he list that both the Apprentice Cigar and the Artisan Cigar from Wood Craft use the same diameter bushing BUT they are different bushing serial #.


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## The Penguin (Mar 20, 2012)

OD of the bushings where they meet the pen parts are probably different between the Apprentice and the Artisan kits. 

I don't buy the Apprentice line of kits, so I don't know for sure.


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## Lenny (Mar 20, 2012)

greenchicken said:


> Fantastic Spread Sheets. QUESTION. On the one by wracinowski he list that both the Apprentice Cigar and the Artisan Cigar from Wood Craft use the same diameter bushing BUT they are different bushing serial #.


 

I couldn't find those listings, BUT ... It may be that one set fits an A mandrel and the other fits the larger B mandrel .... just a thought.


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## Smitty37 (Mar 20, 2012)

*Maybe*

They might be the same bushing....I have bought apprentice bushings from CSUSA that were tagged as Artisian.... I think they are also the same price, but don't remember for sure.





The Penguin said:


> OD of the bushings where they meet the pen parts are probably different between the Apprentice and the Artisan kits.
> 
> I don't buy the Apprentice line of kits, so I don't know for sure.


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## Smitty37 (Mar 20, 2012)

*Yep*



greenchicken said:


> I have been turning pens for many years now and one of the most frustrating issues for me is the various vendors to buy kits from.
> 
> For example: Wood N Whimsey has a nice Cigar pen for $3.55. Pen State sell the Cigar pen for $7.95. Then you get Craft Supply that has two Cigars: one for $4.75 and on for $6.90.
> 
> ...


 You'll find a lot of different prices for most of the popular styles.  

Competition is heavy in this arena and pricing reflects that.  

There are those who will say "You get what you pay for?" which implies that paying more will get you better - sometimes that's true, and sometimes it's not.  Not unfrequently, you will find the exact same item priced differently just as you will find the exact same can of peas priced differently at different grocery stores.


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## allisnut (Mar 20, 2012)

The only real experience I can add here is on the wood-n-whimsie cigars.  I wrinked a nib cone on two of theirs pressing the nib into the tube.  I have never had an issue with a PSI kit.  I compared the two parts and the PSI part was noticably heavier.


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## Smitty37 (Mar 20, 2012)

*Just curious*



allisnut said:


> The only real experience I can add here is on the wood-n-whimsie cigars. I wrinked a nib cone on two of theirs pressing the nib into the tube. I have never had an issue with a PSI kit. I compared the two parts and the PSI part was noticably heavier.


Did you use a pen press? Are you putting pressure directly on the end of the cone?

When I press the cone into the blank, I actually have the cone seated in a hole in a neoprene cylinder and press the blank onto the cone and I can't imagine how I'd have that kind of a problem.


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## arioux (Mar 20, 2012)

Often China vs Taiwan kit.  I know many will not agree but Berea and kits made by Dayacom are "usually" far better in quality than their conterpart.  Usually a little more expensive too.  Wich one are wich, you will have to experiment, your judgement is far better than my opinion.  Avoid "apprentice, funline and hobbyline kind of kits, you will put more chance on your side if you intend to sell your pens.   Just a few thousands kit experience speaking other more experienced might disagree.


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## Wayne (Mar 20, 2012)

It was my intention after seeing all the questions about pen kits and the similarities that prompted me to create the Pen Kit Bushings and Tubes Chart. 

This is an ever changing arena with the suppliers. I've heard there are up to 5 different manufacturers that are similar in sizes but vary in quality. 

I'm not going to comment on the actual pen suppliers. But in time you'll find a good supplier of quality kits. Read the forums and see what others have experienced. Typically the least expensive kits may be lacking in fit and quality of plating.

I'm currently updating the 11 page chart in the library. I'm adding additional suppliers and all the new pen and pencil kits that I can determine from online catalogs. 

If there are any kits that you use that are not on the chart, I would graciously welcome any information sent to me. Please join in this much needed chart for the need of the pen turning community. 

If you have any comments or suggestions regarding this chart please feel free to contact me.

Thanks


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## thewishman (Mar 20, 2012)

Bigj51 said:


> I love the Cigar kits but only get the from Beartooth Woods or Arizona Silhouette.




Jeff, the cigar kits soled by both of these suppliers are Berea kits (as are about all of their other kits as well.)


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## ghostrider (Mar 21, 2012)

I have noticed a difference in Cigar kits. If you look at the clip of a Chinese cigar, and compare it to the clip of a Berea Cigar, you will see the difference. Berea's are simply finished a little better. The only Cigar I've bought from PSI was a rollerball, and the clip on that was finished even better than the Berea. How well they wear for me is TBD.


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## ed4copies (Mar 21, 2012)

Smitty37 said:


> allisnut said:
> 
> 
> > The only real experience I can add here is on the wood-n-whimsie cigars. I wrinked a nib cone on two of theirs pressing the nib into the tube. I have never had an issue with a PSI kit. I compared the two parts and the PSI part was noticably heavier.
> ...



This is one of many places that you can SEE a difference between components.  I made thousands of cigar pens from 1995 to 2000ish, the ONLY nibs I ever smashed came from a "trial purchase" from a Chinese vendor.  That was the only purchase of those pens I ever made.


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## Mark@CSUSA (Mar 21, 2012)

greenchicken said:


> Fantastic Spread Sheets.  QUESTION.  On the one by wracinowski he list that both the Apprentice Cigar and the Artisan Cigar from Wood Craft use the same diameter bushing BUT they are different bushing serial #.



I think you may have been referring to the Apprentice and Artisan Cigar kits we carry. If so, there are some slight differences in hardware/bushing sizes between our two cigar kits. 

If bushings and blanks are laid out on a mandrel with the writing tip to your right, the bushings are sized as follows:

Apprentice Cigar:  | .476'' | .574'' | .528'' | .460'' |
Artisan Cigar:       | .476'' | .575'' | .530'' | .462'' |

I hope that was the information you needed, if not, be sure to let us know.


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## 76winger (Mar 21, 2012)

I've had the wrinkled nib experience as well on a couple cigars purchased from one of the suppliers known for "great prices" that also sell PSI kits. Well I had PSI kits made right alongside them and even my relative newbie eyes could see the differences. The cheap kit had the wrinkled nib following assembly using a wood block with indentation to spread out the pressure, and the cheaper kit had a thicker clip than the PSI, but ragged edges showing definite lack of attention to the details.

Sent from my iPad using Forum Runner


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## Smitty37 (Mar 21, 2012)

ghostrider said:


> I have noticed a difference in Cigar kits. If you look at the clip of a Chinese cigar, and compare it to the clip of a Berea Cigar, you will see the difference. Berea's are simply finished a little better. The only Cigar I've bought from PSI was a rollerball, and the clip on that was finished even better than the Berea. How well they wear for me is TBD.


How well they wear is going to be a function of the plating material - not so much how they look or even how thick the plating material is.  The softer metals like 24Kt gold and silver and to a slightly lesser degree copper will wear more than the harder materials like Chrome, Black Chrome and the Titanium Nitrides.  Rhodium will wear well if it is applied heavily enough to do more than make the hardware brighter.  Titanium Nitride is not a metal at all it is a ceramic and as such has a different chemical bond to the base than metals and also has much better wear charactistics.  

A Gold Titanium Nitride finish even on a rather poorly made pen will wear better than a 24K ot 22K gold (and most other finishes) no matter how good they are.


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