# Which Laquer?



## VirgilJ (Mar 15, 2015)

I want to finish some pens in lacquer as a replacement for CA. It seems I've developed a sever sensitivity to CA and must find a replacement finish for my high grade pens.

I've ordered some Pens Plus and the walnut oil and wax from Doctor's. I want to compare that to a lacquer finish, but the only laquer I have on hand is Deft. I did finish one test blank with the Deft and it came out beautiful. I'm just not sure of the durability.

Behlens stringed instrument lacquer has been recommended to me several times, but that was by guitar makers. Behlens also makes another lacquer called Qualalac that is supposed to be very hard and durable according to their advertisements, but no one seems to know much about it.

I'd really appreciate it if those of you that use lacquer could tell me which of the two Behlens products is best for pen turning or recommend some other  lacquer you use and like.

Thanks in advance!!!


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## jttheclockman (Mar 15, 2015)

It is as good as any lacquer on the market. If you can stand the fumes then use it. There is no one here that i have ever seen done any durability tests on lacquer and in fact i have never seen any type durability tests. All you hear once in awhile is this pen had the finish wear off. Not sure how one can go about truely testing any durability of any finish. Go for it. i love deft as a finish on some pieces. Not pens though.


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## KenV (Mar 15, 2015)

Pre catalyzed lacquers are general not available in small quantities and most do not want to deal with the time limits and cleanup requirements -- but they are durable.

Deft and the other nitrocellulose lacquers are similar -- not perfect, and do require a cure period.  Can produce a good finish.  Respirator or exhaust paint booth recommended.

automotive clear coatings have promise.   Have seen it cite with a few pens.  Will give a durable wear coat -- but my buddy who is a repair tech says it is touchy to apply and requires a respirator.


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## VirgilJ (Mar 15, 2015)

Thank you both for the replies.

The guitar finishers mostly use nitro cellulose Lacquer. Deft is a nitro lacquer, but it's not well thought of in that usage. The behlens is well thought of by the luthiers.

Having said that I find Deft to be totally acceptable. I shot 12 coats with an airbrush and let it cure for 72 hours. I wet sanded it with micro mesh and buffed it out to a really nice finish. The only negatives are the long cure time and a few statements by Russ Fairfield that durability might not be the best. It can darken over time. The lacquer gloss is a little less than CA, but to me it seems to be brighter and deeper. The feel is softer.

The other alternative for CA I've tried is Enduro. Again there is a long cure time, but the durability is easily as good as CA and I could find no reports of cracking or yellowing. The Enduro has a gloss very close to CA, but the look and feel is slightly different. 

When I get the Pens Plus I'm going to try that and see how it compare to the other two.

No matter how the Pens plus turns out I think I'm still going to finish my high grade pens with Lacquer. I really like the look and feel of it far more than any other finish I've tried. If the Pens Plus turns out as good as I think it will I'll use that for when I don't have a week to wait for a finish to cure.


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## KenV (Mar 15, 2015)

Pens Plus is Shellac -- Just looked at the bottle and - Shellac, walnut oil, alcohol.

It may look good off the lathe, but it is not as durable as lacquer or acrylic (Enduro).

Have been playing with acrylic floor varnish (as I have the better part of a gallon left over) on some spindles for a chair.  I think I will give it a run on some pens.  I have used Enduro for years, but it is getting hard for me to get.


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## jttheclockman (Mar 16, 2015)

VirgilJ said:


> Thank you both for the replies.
> 
> The guitar finishers mostly use nitro cellulose Lacquer. Deft is a nitro lacquer, but it's not well thought of in that usage. The behlens is well thought of by the luthiers.
> 
> ...


 

Enduro is more like a polyurethane and it gives that feel also

With lacquers you have the advantage of each coat melting into the last and you get that deep clear look. As I said i like to use Deft if I am using a nitros lacquer. And I use it on small thing such as my birdhouse ornaments. 

Now if I want to lacquer larger items I will switch to a waterbase lacquer ( Target Coatings Emtech EM6000) I will use this on my desk watches and projects that are larger because I use my HVLP gun and the clean up is very simple. Just water. 

Now these type projects do not get the handling like a pen does and i have no experience of using them on a pen because I strickly use CA. Fumes do not bother me because of the way I apply it using good ventalation. Same goes for applying lacquer and I use a vapor mask.


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## Brooks803 (Mar 16, 2015)

KenV said:


> Pre catalyzed lacquers are general not available in small quantities and most do not want to deal with the time limits and cleanup requirements -- but they are durable.
> 
> Deft and the other nitrocellulose lacquers are similar -- not perfect, and do require a cure period.  Can produce a good finish.  Respirator or exhaust paint booth recommended.
> 
> automotive clear coatings have promise.   Have seen it cite with a few pens.  Will give a durable wear coat -- but my buddy who is a repair tech says it is touchy to apply and requires a respirator.


 
I've been playing around with automotive clear coats to finish certain pens and so far so good. You do have to have a respirator and good ventilation. Not to mention proper preparation of the pen surface! I went through quite a bit of clear before I had success.


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## Charlie69 (Mar 16, 2015)

I like moisture cured urethane (mcu), this stuff is extremely hard yet flexible and polishes to a high gloss.  They use it to seal concrete driveways and fishing lures so you know it's tough.   _And_ it has good flow, brushes on easily and since it's not sprayed a respirator isn't needed but good ventilation is.   Re-coat time is about 2 hours with 3 coats being about right.

Not a pen but a reel seat I made for a fly rod awhile ago.   A few coats of mcu, buffed with red and white compounds to remove dust nibs.


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## VirgilJ (Mar 16, 2015)

The bird houses done with Deft are beautiful. I guess Deft is still my top contender since it is cheap, easy to find, and easy to produce a great finish.

I had kind of ruled out automotive clear coats because of their reputation as being nasty stuff. Looking at the spectacular finish on your pens might make me reconsider.

Sounds like the MCU is similar to Enduro. The finish on your reel seat is way too god for a fishing rod!!


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## Rockytime (Mar 16, 2015)

Charlie69 said:


> I like moisture cured urethane (mcu), this stuff is extremely hard yet flexible and polishes to a high gloss.  They use it to seal concrete driveways and fishing lures so you know it's tough.   _And_ it has good flow, brushes on easily and since it's not sprayed a respirator isn't needed but good ventilation is.   Re-coat time is about 2 hours with 3 coats being about right.
> 
> Not a pen but a reel seat I made for a fly rod awhile ago.   A few coats of mcu, buffed with red and white compounds to remove dust nibs.



Where does one buy MCU?


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## jttheclockman (Mar 16, 2015)

Oh wow if you are using concrete sealer such that I am aware of, you better have some good ventalation. I worked in construction for 42 years and they seal warehouse floors with that stuff and that will give you an extreme headache. Automotive lacquers is another big time headache maker.

Be extremely careful with any finishes, because not only are you or should you be concerned with fumes for healthwise but for flammable too. Fumes around an ignition source is not a good idea. They use spray booths for a reason with explosion proof motors and equipment for a reason.Be careful in your search for that perfect finish.


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## Brooks803 (Mar 16, 2015)

Absolutely be careful! I don't have a pro spray booth, but I do make sure I have proper ventilation during and AFTER spraying. Plus I wear the correct respirator.

On the days I spray clear nothing else is done before or after. Nothing before so there's no dust in the air and after because of the flammable hazard. Fans and time are your friend.


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## ssajn (Mar 16, 2015)

While looking for a new finish I decided to try "OB Shine". So far so good. Not sure yet how durable it is.

Mix by using 1/3 each BLO, shellac and DNA.

I'd like to try it using walnut oil too.


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## jttheclockman (Mar 16, 2015)

ssajn said:


> While looking for a new finish I decided to try "OB Shine". So far so good. Not sure yet how durable it is.
> 
> Mix by using 1/3 each BLO, shellac and DNA.
> 
> I'd like to try it using walnut oil too.




It is not going to be durable at all because you have no hard forming finish in there. Shellac is not. Don't expect too much from it. Now it may make for a nice feel that many people are after. After looking at that combo I am surprised it mixed. What is the DNA for??  That would just flash off.


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## VirgilJ (Mar 16, 2015)

Thank you all for your input.

So far here is the three finishes that I feel pretty comfortable with. The reddish blank is enduro. The pen is CA. The olivewood blank is Deft lacquer.

Due to my severe allergic reaction to it, CA is out. 

I like the lacquer finish best so I'm still very much open to any suggestions on which is the best lacquer to use.


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## jttheclockman (Mar 16, 2015)

I am not sure what you are trying to get at. Lacquer is basically lacquer. Qualalacq, is good, Deft is good, Emtech is good. probably the best (waterbased lacquer) Watco, Behlen are all good but they are lacquers. They are not as durable as a polurethane. That is why that is the stuff they use on wood floors. Now if you can catalyse it like they do for prefinished floors you have the perfect finish that will never wear off. 

You like the look of Deft so use that. Someone told you Behlen musicical instrument lacquer is better. Get some of it to try out. I am guessing it may have something in it it make it flexible because that is what is needed in instruments. Does it make it tougher who knows. There is no scientific way to test its use on pens. I say this because pens are handled differently by all people. Their body chemistry is different so they may break down a finish faster than others. 

The look of lacquer and poly are different if you see them side by side. The depth is greater with lacquer because poly is a film finish. Not more that I can tell you. Good luck in your search.


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## VirgilJ (Mar 16, 2015)

jttheclockman,

Since using lacquer is nothing new, I just figured that there is someone on this forum that has used just about all the brands. Thought maybe that there is a favorite among those that use it to finish pens.

Guess not.

Thanks for all your help and advice!!


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## jttheclockman (Mar 16, 2015)

VirgilJ said:


> jttheclockman,
> 
> Since using lacquer is nothing new, I just figured that there is someone on this forum that has used just about all the brands. Thought maybe that there is a favorite among those that use it to finish pens.
> 
> ...


 

http://www.penturners.org/forum/f28/dipping-lacquer-durability-issue-101434/


http://www.penturners.org/forum/f28/ca-vs-lacquer-vs-71712/



http://www.penturners.org/forum/f28/lacquer-finish-66200/


http://www.penturners.org/forum/f28/pros-cons-each-finish-57143/


Doing a quick search here you can see this question dates back to when this site even started. There are some older responses there that may interest you. At least you will get a perspective of some older past members. It has been used and is still used as a pen finish. Will continue to be because it is a certain look some people go for just as well as others use friction polish alone or blo alone to get that wood feel.  

You may want to check out Russ Fairfield's articles. very informative.


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## Wildman (Mar 17, 2015)

Virgil, big box stores in my area stopped selling Deft products reason stopped using Deft brushing lacquer.  Local paint stores tend to carry Minwax stains & clear finishing products.  Know I can buy Minwax brushing or rattle can lacquer at Home Depot or Walmarts.

Any brand of spraying lacquer used will dry faster than a brushing lacquer.  Any brand of brushing lacquer formulated to dry slower.  You can modify brushing lacquer to spray.  Don’t forget rattle cans of lacquer.  Buying your lacquer locally probably a better op than mail or online ordering.  

With any wood finish you can use on wood there are tradeoffs!  There is no one finish or sheen right for every situation.  Same is true with methods of application for any finish.   

I am a fan of lacquer whether you dip, brush, spray, or wipe on for pens.  

Only lacquer have not fooled with yet is waterborne, only because not sold locally!


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## low_48 (Mar 20, 2015)

Charlie69 said:


> I like moisture cured urethane (mcu), this stuff is extremely hard yet flexible and polishes to a high gloss.  They use it to seal concrete driveways and fishing lures so you know it's tough.   _And_ it has good flow, brushes on easily and since it's not sprayed a respirator isn't needed but good ventilation is.   Re-coat time is about 2 hours with 3 coats being about right.
> 
> Not a pen but a reel seat I made for a fly rod awhile ago.   A few coats of mcu, buffed with red and white compounds to remove dust nibs.



Moisture cured urethane loves to cure in the moisture of your sinuses and lungs. Air supplied mask would be my preferred safety equipment for that. If you buy your finishes in a big box store (Deft used to be), I expect a lot less performance compared to buying a professional woodworking finish. I never liked Deft, I always felt the retarders used to make it brushable, made it softer.


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## CaptainJane (Mar 21, 2015)

*Not to hijack the laquer thread*

Hello

I also have a bad reaction to CA, but I continue to use it with the help of a decent respirator.  

The one I bought:  3M RUGGED COMFORT QUICK LATCH 1/2 FACE RESPIRATOR - about $20 plus cartridges. A size Small is model number 6501QL, Medium 6502QL, and Large 6203QL. 

I bought a pack of dual purpose cartridges - 3M model 60926 - about $15. It is a P100 particulate/air filter on top of a Multi Gas Vapor cartridge - listed as Nuisance level organic vapors, and nuisance level acid gases. I can not smell any CA fumes, and cocobolo dust does not bother me the least - but I must wear a long sleeve shirt - don't ask how I know (big rash all over my arms).

I really like the Quick Latch feature, and it is the reason I chose this model. You just flip the latch under your chin, and the mask falls down from your mouth a few inches, allowing you to talk, drink, blow your nose - - . When you are ready to go back to work, just flip the Quick Latch back under your chin, and you are back in business.


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