# Anyone have flate rate envelope problems?



## Texatdurango (Mar 16, 2008)

I sent a $4.60 flate rate envelope with 16 blanks inside to an individual last week and it was returned for insuficient funds!

Just like thousands of others, I put the blanks in a small box then slip it inside the flat rate envelope and tape it up, just like I have hundreds of times and have received hundreds done the same way.

I returned it to the post office where the teller informed me that they are being told to crack down on those taking advantage of the flat rate ENVELOPE by putting boxes inside then taping the envelope shut instead of just using the $8.95 flat rate box.

Anyone else have this problem or was this just my lucky day?


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## gokartergo (Mar 16, 2008)

That's the same thing I do...Never had a problem....Yet..


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## Gary Max (Mar 16, 2008)

Had a war over how much tape I was using on the envelope ---they told me I was only allowed to put one piece of tape on it. They tried to charge me extra---I just told them to jump in a lake and walked out.
They forget we are the customers.


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## jcollazo (Mar 16, 2008)

Haven't had problems yet and I tend to use a lot of tape on envelopes that look like I'm shipping a small family in it.

I believe the ruling is that the flap must be able to completely close without the aid of tape. After that, You can use as much tape as you want to reinforce the envelope.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it[}]


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## ed4copies (Mar 16, 2008)

Yes, I have had this fight with the local postmaster.  You WILL lose.

The rules say it can't be over an inch (or a quarter inch - I'm not sure) thick.  

Although each branch of the postal service has their own Interpretation, when you look up the regs, they DO stipulate a thickness.  Try another post office branch, they are NOT uniform.


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## MesquiteMan (Mar 16, 2008)

Ed,

Can you point me to the rules that say that.  I have looked in the past for the rules that show something like this and I have not had any luck.  All I have ever seen is that it has to fit in the envelope without altering the envelope itself.  Not questioning you not this, I would just like to see where it is published in the rules.  Thanks.


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## ed4copies (Mar 16, 2008)

Curtis,
I'll look.  I proved them wrong BEFORE the last postal increase.  THEN, when the increase went through, they changed the "rules" so this was spelled out.  I saw it then, will try to find it again.


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## hunter-27 (Mar 16, 2008)

Directly from usps.com:

 Priority Mail Flat Rate Shipping Supplies    

 Pay one flat rate to anywhere in the world.  

 Ship your packages in 2-3 days on average for domestic destinations and 6-10 days on average for international destinations with Priority MailÂ® Flat Rate Envelopes and Boxes. For one low rate, ship as much as can be properly secured in a flat rate envelope or box* to any location in the world! 
    Envelopes 
 Priority Mail Flat Rate Envelopes can be used for both domestic and international shipping: 
 â€” Available anywhere in the U.S. for $4.60 
 â€” One rate to Canada and Mexico for $9.00 
 â€” One rate to all other countries for $11.00 
 *4 pound maximum for international shipments 
 The dimensions of the envelope are 12.5" X 9.5". 
 The contents of the flat rate envelope must be confined within the envelope, using the flap adhesive as the primary means of closure. 
 The flap must close easily, adhere to the envelope and may be secured with tape if desired. 
 The design and shape of the envelope may not be altered or enlarged in any way to fit the contents.


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## karlkuehn (Mar 16, 2008)

> _Originally posted by hunter-27_
> ....as much as can be properly secured in a flat rate envelope...



Heck, where I come from 27 feet of duct tape and a couple bungee cords don't get much more proper! heh


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## ed4copies (Mar 16, 2008)

Well, I've spent the last hour looking for the publication he used, I can't find it online, either.

Here's the short version:
We had this discussion on this forum about a year ago.  MANY of you were distorting the heck out of the flat-rate envelope and I was receiving your parcels.  SO, I started putting more "stuff" in the envelope and taping it shut - the USPS in Racine said, LOUDLY, CAN'T do that.  It said on the flat rate envelope that tape could NOT be used to reinforce.  The regulations (which I brought with me) said the envelope COULD be taped.  I took it over the head of the local postmaster, contacting customer service.  I was told, eventually, to use a different post office branch that would agree to take my stuff - customer service arranged for me to go to Sturtevant. (Out of the way, short hours, not gonna happen with one or two packages)

So, I compromised and took MOST to the local and paid the difference, charged my customers $5, I paid anything over that.

When the NEW regs were issued in May 2007, my local post office was QUICK to SHOW me the clarification.  Since I can't see anything about this, I would not doubt they "made it up" and had it printed (copier) to shut me up.

So, I wish you all luck, but I wasted a lot of time and energy on the last go-around.  IF you succeed, please keep records on WHO said WHAT, so I can start the fight again, with some resources above and beyond my last attempt.

BELIEVE ME, I'M IN FAVOR OF FLAT RATE.  Presently, we send SOME stuff UPS, cause it's actually a lot cheaper in some cases (pertains more to the flat rate box though).

GOOD LUCK, KEEP GOOD NOTES!!!


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## Tom McMillan (Mar 16, 2008)

Ed, it sounds like you may be referring to some rules I was shown for First Class Mail.  There's 3 different rate levels for First Class Mail.  The first I believe is for regular envelopes up to 1/4 inch think, the second up to 3/4 inch thick and the third is over 3/4 inch thick (which includes most of the items I mail &  I think is called First Class Package rate).  

I believe another round of rate increases starts in May sometime---be interesting to see if there are other changes then??


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## jcollazo (Mar 16, 2008)

Here's the page for Priority Mail, including flat rate:

http://pe.usps.com/text/dmm300/123.htm

Section 1.4 and 3.2 are, IMHO, the important ones.


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## Gary Max (Mar 16, 2008)

I wish we shipped enough stuff to move up to a UPS account---The bottom line here is what ever your local postmaster thinks are the rules---that's the way it's going to be. I just go to a different post office now.


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## Jarheaded (Mar 16, 2008)

It was explained to me after having them reject a package that I had taped. The envelopes are only usable if they can be closed by the preglued strip that is attached to them. If you need to use tape, then they are too full. I said okay and just tried to use less tape now. They give us vhs boxes that fit in the envelopes and they still close with the strips. I now try to give all my stuff right to the postman that carries a DIW Jr. Statesman that someone gave to him as an xmas present. Sometimes a little grease helps.


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## hunter-27 (Mar 16, 2008)

I may just seal up an elvelope(almost) and with a small funnel pack that sucker with a load of bb's, then mail it to some random person in the US just because.  Well I probably won't but this topic needed a little laughter.  [}]


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## johnnycnc (Mar 16, 2008)

I'm your recipient!
I'll paypal you 5.00 if you'll do it and mail to me.seriously.
I bet it would "spill it's guts" though,in transit.
ROTFLMAO!!!


> _Originally posted by hunter-27_
> 
> I may just seal up an elvelope(almost) and with a small funnel pack that sucker with a load of bb's, then mail it to some random person in the US just because.  Well I probably won't but this topic needed a little laughter.  [}]


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## Jarheaded (Mar 16, 2008)

Hunter, let me know and I will give you my address. The kids will love it and I will have a good laugh.

If anyone has a real problem with the postal worker at your local office, please get their name and I will pass it along. My ex-brother inlaw is a postal inspector and pretty high up, and we even still get along. I would be happy to pass the name along to him.


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## hunter-27 (Mar 16, 2008)

"I bet it would "spill it's guts" though,in transit.
ROTFLMAO!!!"

I guess if it did, maybe next time they would:

a)Design a better envelope 
b)Not complain about a little "extra" tape 
c)Go "Postal" on my sorry butt [:0]

If I get any local hassles, I may just have to put the plan into action. [}]

I suppose I should insure it as well in case of "ACCIDENTAL" loss,damage, and/or non-delivery.


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## IPD_Mrs (Mar 16, 2008)

The information you need to confront any postmaster is on AS.  Look at the links on the left side almost to the bottom for the link titled "Flat Rate Priority Mail Clarification"

Unless there has been a newer update in the Mailers Companion from 2004 that specifically addresses flat rate envelopes.

Mike


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## karlkuehn (Mar 16, 2008)

I use 2" wide tape to attach my printed shipping labels to the outside of the envelope. I put one on each edge and one over the middle where the addresses are just in case they get wet so the ink doesn't blur. If I have a package that just barely holds whatever I'm sending, I just make those tape pieces a little longer, since the site also states that you can use tape to hold the labels on.

I've never had a problem with the locals and I ship swollen stuff all the time. I sent one to Johnnie that was fit to burst, but I was still able to squeeze most of the sticky strip around the blanks. 

I've been limiting my envelopes to whatever I can fit in the larger VHS pri box, with maybe a blank or two taped to the outside of the box, and haven't had any trouble.


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## Rifleman1776 (Mar 17, 2008)

I have had double layers of blanks returned in a FR envelop. Since then I never put more than a single layer in. If more need to be shipped I'll use a #4 Priority box, not flat rate. A lot more and I move up to a larger FR box. Not worth the hassle of arguing with USPS rules and delaying shipment. I know I have received quite a few bulgy/bulky FR envelops but if there is a risk of delay, I would rather pay/charge a little more and go with what works.


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## Dario (Mar 17, 2008)

As far as I know, there is no thickness limit as long as the envelope is not altered.  If it closes with its own adhesive strip, it should be legal.

I do not tape mine and never had any problem.

Here's a tip that works if you bring your envelope to the PO.  After paying, ask the clerk to tape it for you.  They will do it.  Of course this is not efficient when you pre-paid using online labels.


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## alamocdc (Mar 17, 2008)

Regardless of contents, I use the glue strip on the flap. If I can't close the FR envelope using the strip, then I know I've over stuffed it and move up a size. And I've not had a problem with double stacked blanks. I also reinforce the corners by the flap with a 3" piece of tape around the edge. No problems or complaints yet.

I did have a problem of another sort. I was mailing a package to one of our "down under" brothers. I purchades the label online (as always) and the system gave me a "rate discount" for purchasing online. I needed a customs declaration envelope (clear plastic) for it so I went to a local post office for it. After affixing the clear envelope with the lable and customs form inside, the guy behind the counter weighed the package and told me I owed the difference between the online discounted price and what I would have paid if I'd taken it to them for processing. I refused to pay it b/c I paid what the USPS online system charged me and told him to mail it. The next day it came back to me for insufficient postage so I took it to my local post office. I explained that I paid what the online system charged me and asked them why the local office says I owe "x" when the official USPS system says I owed "y". After a few minutes on the phone with someone up the chain, the Post Master came out and told me that the lable was correct and the package should not have been returned. He also apologized for the problem and inconvenience.

Moral of the story... not all post offices operate the same, or even know the "rules"... but some are at least educatable.


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## Nolan (Mar 17, 2008)

My local PO wont allow tape on the outside of the package. I stopped shipping two high rows because I'm not sure they would get there. So its 20 3/4 blanks and 15 7/8 blanks. (with lots of tape inside so they have to pretty much loose the whole envelope in order to not deliver it.


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## negid (Mar 17, 2008)

Perhaps if you take the envelope into the PO without any tape on it and show that it is closed without any tape, then you could ask for some securing tape with the USPS logo on it to make sure it reamins taped.

Maybe some PO's would agree to this?


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## TellicoTurning (Mar 17, 2008)

You guys must realize that you are dealing with government employess... back when I was doing international shipping, the CFR (Code of Federal Regulations) is about 6" thick and has bucous of rules that are for the most part undecipherable... and each agency involved has their own "regional" regulations that the local director has "interpreted" and applies in that "region"... I know a guy in Houston that took the U.S. Custom's Broker exam 12 times (it's not me... I only took it 3 times).  He had a reputation as being one of the most knowledgeable and sharpest custom's brokers in the city, but he could not pass the test because of the way the "region" interpreted the rules, vs, the way the book read. 
Same applies to the post office... each post master has his/her interpretation of the rules... may not be anywhere like the rule book, and I'm sure there is a section in the CFR on postal regulations.


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## Texatdurango (Mar 17, 2008)

Since most of the problems stem from the use of tape I think I'll print out this photo and take with me next time to show WHY I use tape, not to seal the envelope but to protect the corners.

This was a package of truestone blanks sent to me and several were damaged, two broken in half (luckily they were all replaced).  This shows how rough these packages are tossed about and treated.  It also shows how well that little strip of adhesive really works.  After all of this damage, the tape strip held fast, of course a lot of good that does when contents are spewing from every corner!


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## Ron in Drums PA (Mar 17, 2008)

http://shop.usps.com/webapp/wcs/sto...01&categoryId=11825&productId=11645&langId=-1

I shipped a tool rest in this box and it cost me less than $5.00. 
You should be able to fit 20 blanks in here easily.

Edit In:

Just fitted the box

12  6" long blanks
20  5.375" long blanks


Edit in again
Sorry this is the box I used for the tool rest and it's a little bigger
http://shop.usps.com/webapp/wcs/sto...01&categoryId=13354&productId=11643&langId=-1


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## wdcav1952 (Mar 17, 2008)

> _Originally posted by karlkuehn_
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Karl, this thread is about mailing packages, not about how you get a date! [}]


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## Jarheaded (Mar 17, 2008)

Hunter, 
While my first instinct is to start a big fight, I had time to think a bit more on the subject. Just as when something illegal is shipped, if you were to ship the BBs, they would probably go after whoever the package is addressed to. But I was thinking a little more about the idea of shipping them,and not being a lawyer, the act of shipping a package that can cause damage could possibly be seen as an act of terrorism or at the least, conspiracy, and the feds don't like that much. I like to mess with the higher ups as much as anyone, but this could bring down a whole lot of headache for all involved, not to mention the costs that would be involved with the defense after they seize everything from you and everyone that you are associated with, and all assets are frozen. Maybe we should start a petition and stay out of jail. Once again, they have more money and time to fight this than we do. This one just isn't worth the fight and we can't possibly win. The thought of doing it is funny though.


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## LandfillLumber (Mar 17, 2008)

Funny i have had a ton of trouble with the USPS of late, but they are the only service for small packages to really use. I got in trouble for using tape a year ago so they said I could use the small stickers they give to just cover the little pull taps at each end, then a few eeks ago I was rejected for that(but they tol me I could do it). Well the best part is that in the direction that I think hunter-27 posted in a earlier post that the flap may be closed with tape if need be, wait a minute you can use tape to help close is??????? The web site says you can, but they will not let you use it, but still I get packages all the time with tape all over the place on them. Tell me what happened to consistency a big component to running a good biz???? If I had billions of dollars I might start my own small carrier biz just in spite of the USPS,LOL. Vent is over, Victor


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## Jarheaded (Mar 17, 2008)

Victor, wake up, they are not a business, they are the government. They make whatever changes they want whenever it suites their needs. Most of the people that work there are doing as little as possible and pushing the fact that they work for the USPS as far as they can. One may take a taped package and the one at the next window won't. They do what they want and deny doing it. It's the government way....LOL


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## ed4copies (Mar 17, 2008)

Victor,

Thanks, now I don't have to do all that typing.

DITTO what VICTOR said!!!


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## THarvey (Mar 17, 2008)

I have had the same problems.


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## ed4copies (Mar 17, 2008)

NEW POINT:

One local office told me (a couple weeks ago) that a "padded envelope" (which I use a lot - bought hundreds to ship stuff and not have it fall out) was AUTOMATICALLY A PARCEL - could NOT be shipped as a letter.

Today, I took a padded envelope to the OTHER post office --- you guessed it, its winging its way to California for "mail" rates.


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## Rifleman1776 (Mar 18, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Texatdurango_
> 
> Since most of the problems stem from the use of tape I think I'll print out this photo and take with me next time to show WHY I use tape, not to seal the envelope but to protect the corners.
> 
> This was a package of truestone blanks sent to me and several were damaged, two broken in half (luckily they were all replaced).  This shows how rough these packages are tossed about and treated.  It also shows how well that little strip of adhesive really works.  After all of this damage, the tape strip held fast, of course a lot of good that does when contents are spewing from every corner!



Tex, in the first place, I believe mailing something fragile in an envelope is asking for trouble. When I have doubt about the safety of something, I'll use the Priority #4 box and weigh it. Often the cost is the same as the FR envelope. I bought a digital postal scale off eBay several years ago, $25.00 including shipping, it has saved me, and my customers, that many times over. There is nothing gained by using the envelope for bulky stuff and much to lose.


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## Randy_ (Mar 18, 2008)

For those who suggested that the regs have been changed, I think you may be correct.  As I recall, the original rules allowed tape "ONLY" to reinforce the flap closure.  I see that the current regs now also allow reinforcement of the seams with tape as well.

Next point is to reemphasize one already made that each postmaster is going to interpret the rules a little differently so whether or not you have a problem will depend quite a bit on whom you are dealing with.  Most folks don't seem to have problems.  Difficulties arise when you run up against a postmaster who has a very conservative interpretation of the rules or when you, as a mailer, try to push the rules to the very extreme or a little beyond.

As mentioned earlier,  BB has a USPS official memo posted on his web site that should help if you choose to argue the point with a difficult postmaster.  It can be found here:    http://www.arizonasilhouette.com/Priority_Mail.htm  Print up a copy and and take it with you when you go to the PO.  The memo is dated in 2004 so I don't know if it is still in effect; but do remember that the PM is always right and you may not be successful in your discussions regardless of how sound your argument.      

My final thought is to ask folks to think about this issue from the other side of the fence.  I strongly suspect that the USPS never intended for the flat rate envelope to be used like a box for the shipment of items with significant volume.  Of course I could be wrong; but my guess is that the original intent of the FR envelope was envisioned as a mailer for letters, papers, documents and the like
and that customers enhanced the capability because the USPS was a little careless in defining how the envelopes were to be used.  Remember that there used to be a small flat rate box that was used for mailing items with significant thickness, i.e. not letters and documents.  It carried the same fee as the envelope.

If you were a business man running an all-you-can-eat buffet in a college town and several nights a week the entire college football team came in for dinner, I'm guessing it wouldn't be long before you put some sort of limitation on the buffet before they ate you out of business.  Same thing with USPS flat rate envelopes.....  Consider what some of you folks are trying to stuff into a FR envelope and then consider what FedEx or UPS would charge to ship the same package.  I think you will see that some of us are probably pushing the limits way beyond what most would consider reasonable.  

OTOH, it is certain that some postmasters are being overly strict in interpreting the existing rules.  It would seem that there is probably a middle ground that we all need to work a little harder to find.


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## karlkuehn (Mar 20, 2008)

Well, this is interesting, I was just printing a label on the USPS site, and on a whim, I clicked on the little question mark next to the Priority Mail Flat Rate Envelope, and lo and behold, look what popped up!

Priority Mail Flat Rate Envelope

* Pay one flat rate, regardless of weight or destination, for any amount of material that will fit in our Priority Mail Flat Rate Envelope. 	
*Envelopes are available at your local Post Office or you can order online.

Packaging
It is required that you use USPSÂ® packaging to receive the service you have purchased. When mailing using the Priority MailÂ® flat rate, the contents of the flat-rate envelope must be confined within the envelope with the adhesive provided on the flap as the primary means of closure.
* The flap must be able to close and adhere to the envelope.
* Tape may be applied to reinforce the envelope.
* The design/shape of the envelope may not be enlarged by any means.
* Note: Turning a flat rate envelope into a small "box" shape by including bulky items is a method of enlarging the dimensions and is not acceptable use of the flat rate envelope. Priority Mail boxes are available to ship larger items.

This is something new, I've not seen this on there before. Apparently someone decided that something needed to change.

Pretty friggin stupid if you ask me, I mean, what substance known to man will fit in a flat rate envelope, without swelling it, that would possibly weigh 70 pounds? Idiots...

They're going to mess around and lose a whole bunch of money when we all switch to UPS, Fedex or DHL.

If they had any kind of brains, they'd have offered a VHS sized flat rate box for $4.60 and been done with it.

I guess they really are government run!


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## Randy_ (Mar 20, 2008)

Very interesting!!  Thanks for that update.

So now it becomes a matter of how you or more properly they interpret the meaning of "small box shape".  It would be a whole lot simpler if they would just put a thickness restriction on the envelopes like they do on first class mail and be done with it; but I guess that option hasn't occurred to anyone yet??  &lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;do we have an icon for "idiot"?.....


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## IPD_Mrs (Mar 20, 2008)

> _Originally posted by karlkuehn_
> 
> They're going to mess around and lose a whole bunch of money when we all switch to UPS, Fedex or DHL.



Karl,
I think you will find that nobody will go to UPS on a small package going to a rural residence.  I have seen a two pound package in my own state price out at over $9.00 with UPS.  The post office is still a pretty good deal even if you can no longer ship a box in an envelope.
Mike


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## DCBluesman (Mar 20, 2008)

While I appreciate that the specifics of the use of the Flat Rate Envelope are a bit on the absurd side (70 pounds?) Americans will find that even a more prohibitive restriction leaves us with far better postal rates than most any country.  With the exception of shipping bulky, weighty objects, like raw wood, the FRE is a bargain.  Neither UPS FEDEX or DHL will deliver a pen across country for me for $4.60.  As for wood purchases, If we need to go to the $8.95 Flat rate box, it's still a great rate.


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## karlkuehn (Mar 20, 2008)

> _Originally posted by DCBluesman_
> 
> While I appreciate that the specifics of the use of the Flat Rate Envelope are a bit on the absurd side (70 pounds?) Americans will find that even a more prohibitive restriction leaves us with far better postal rates than most any country.  With the exception of shipping bulky, weighty objects, like raw wood, the FRE is a bargain.  Neither UPS FEDEX or DHL will deliver a pen across country for me for $4.60.  As for wood purchases, If we need to go to the $8.95 Flat rate box, it's still a great rate.



But who's going to eat that extra $4.35, you or your customers?

For me, it's not about the weight or the price, it's about not having to _worry_ about the weight or the price. If I start weighing every thing that I send in flat rate envelopes, most of it is still going to be $4.60 for the regular priority shipping, it's just a hassle making sure every package is under the cut-off weight. 

It's not a big deal to weigh everything out, I guess. It just irks me that I'm probably going to be forced to implement another step into my shipping process. With as much shipping as I do, that _will_ translate into significant time loss, especially doing combined shipping on multiple orders.


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## Fred (Mar 20, 2008)

I had a run in with my local post mistress about three months ago. The problem she stated was in my use of tape to secure the corners and the pull tab of their sealing flap.

Long story made short ... I shipped that one by UPS for a few cents more.

In retaliation I came hone melted about 200 pounds of lead tire weights. I made a form to pour the lead in and made a large lead weight - several pounds - that snugly slipped into the flat rate device. I used no tape to seal it, it did not swell the package, but it was extremely HEAVY and hard to handle. I mailed it at my local PO in the outside drop box here in Georgia to someone way up in Washington state so that it would be handled many, many, many times by hand. He told me the deliery person said that it had to be a joke that someone was playing on him. Wrong theory!

I often wonder what it cost the PO to move that package around.

BTW, it arrived in pretty good shape considering all the effort that HAD to be used to get it there.


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