# Taiwan vs China



## Smitty37

I see quite a few folks here knocking Chinese made pen kits and extolling the virtues of those made in Taiwan...Well which is better.

Before I go any farther, I sell Fancy Slimline Pen kits made in China.  I have access to and occasionally sell kits made in Taiwan.  I might soon be selling some kits made in Taiwan (the problem is I need to buy a minimum of 500 kits to even make a trial run).

Here is my take as it applies to Fancy Slimline kits.  

1) Taiwan made kits sell at retail for about double or triple what I charge for the  Chinese kits I sell.  And if you are buying kits for much less than double what I charge I'll give bets they ain't made in Taiwan.  I just checked prices with a major Taiwanese supplier and their kits are double FOB Taiwan what I pay delivered. (500 kit order).  

2) The Taiwan made kits that I have used were a little easier to assemble..taking a minute or two less per pen than the ones I sell. The fit and finish around the cap/clip is a bit better.

3) The packaging (plastic bags that you throw away) is a little better on the Taiwan made kits so they are a tad better protected during shipping.

4) Eye appeal of the finished product...well beauty is in the eye of the beholder isn't it.  I give away a lot of pens to friends, relatives and others and I let them select from a case that has pens made with kits from both places.  The wood used to make the pen has a lot more to do with the selection than where the kits were made.  A nice piece of wood, turned well, goes fast regardless of where the hardware came from.

5. Selling price.  My friends who use Taiwan made kits get about the same price I do.

6. Conclusion.  I think "ya pays yer money and takes yer choice"  It depends on what you want to do.  If you are a starter and want to get a lot a practice, a dollar a kit makes a lot of difference.  If you are selling your pens for $50/$75 (and not many slimlines are selling for that kind of money) a couple of bucks more for the kit won't make much difference to you.

7. You can check my prices at www.smittyspenworks.com


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## RAdams

Smitty, I would have to disagree on the rookie theory. It is kind of like your first lathe. You dont want to buy some out of whack machine that will never line up because that will take ALL the fun out of turning and you will never get to experience the joys of the art. Just like you dont want to do kits that fight you if you arent exactly sure what is going on. Learn on the good kits, that have an excellent fit and finish, then switch to the Chinese kits once you have some condifence. 

I ruined 9 out of 10 blanks the first time i tried the Chinese kits. I had been turning for over three years, but was relatively new to pens. Now that i have assembled a few hundred kits, I dont worry near as much when i order chinese kits because i now have the knowledge and experience to make them work. 

Just my two pennies.


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## Wildman

I stopped making fancy kits because of quality issues. Have not bought anything from that vendor in over three years. Also sent eight kits back from another vendor costing $4.99 each because of quality issues. Packaging marked R.O.C. I ate two kits plus bushings. Life is too short to waste time and money on crap. 

If making Slimline or other pens, buy quality in bulk and you and your customers will not be disappointed.


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## hunter-27

http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZJxdm380YYUS


Wildman said:


> I stopped making fancy kits because of quality issues. Have not bought anything from that vendor in over three years. Also sent eight kits back from another vendor costing $4.99 each because of quality issues. Packaging marked R.O.C. I ate two kits plus bushings. Life is too short to waste time and money on crap.
> 
> If making Slimline or other pens, buy quality in bulk and you and your customers will not be disappointed.


 
Well said.


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## RussFairfield

The level of Quality is what is important. What difference does it make which country anything comes from? You can buy any level of quality you are willing to pay for from China, Taiwan, Japan, or anywhere else, and that included here in the USA.


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## Rfturner

The kits made in Taiwan do seem to fair better, the majority of them other than slimlines there is not a large enough difference where the kits were made. When you havfe the option choose the best quality you can get because it reflects poorly on you if you sell junk


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## wolftat

I don't get it, is this an advertising thing for your pen kits?


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## Smitty37

RAdams said:


> Smitty, I would have to disagree on the rookie theory. It is kind of like your first lathe. You dont want to buy some out of whack machine that will never line up because that will take ALL the fun out of turning and you will never get to experience the joys of the art. Just like you dont want to do kits that fight you if you arent exactly sure what is going on. Learn on the good kits, that have an excellent fit and finish, then switch to the Chinese kits once you have some condifence.
> 
> I ruined 9 out of 10 blanks the first time i tried the Chinese kits. I had been turning for over three years, but was relatively new to pens. Now that i have assembled a few hundred kits, I dont worry near as much when i order chinese kits because i now have the knowledge and experience to make them work.
> 
> Just my two pennies.



Well I ruined 3 or 4 blanks when I first started and I was using Taiwan made kits....truth is I didn't ruin them because of the kits I ruined them because I was not using a pen press in assembling them.


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## Smitty37

wolftat said:


> I don't get it, is this an advertising thing for your pen kits?



No it is a response to a number of posts knocking Chinese made kits in general.  I sometimes sell my kits in the business classifieds.  I often wonder why, but my own pet complaint about "Chinese Made" is on electrical things (where a poorly made product can present serious danger to the user) like circuit breakers, outlets, switches, wall boxes, fan motors, light fixtures etc.  Try to buy those things that are not made in China.  I've tried in hardware stores, Wal-Mart, DIY Stores, electrical stores and the list goes on, and even with good old American company names on the labels those suckers are always made in China......And they work.


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## jeffnreno

Hi Smitty

I have bought a bunch of your kits.
I buy them with the knowledge that they are low tier kits - but fact is they work and if you give away most of the pens you make then who cares.   My pen making is a hobby not a business so the inexpensive chinese pen kits work just fine for a hobby.    If I was selling slimlines I would have a hard time using the cheap kits knowing that the finish will fail quickly.   That being said there is a place for all kits on the market - just as a consumer of pen kits you have to be aware of and set correct expectations for the kits you buy.

Jeff


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## Smitty37

Wildman said:


> I stopped making fancy kits because of quality issues. Have not bought anything from that vendor in over three years. Also sent eight kits back from another vendor costing $4.99 each because of quality issues. Packaging marked R.O.C. I ate two kits plus bushings. Life is too short to waste time and money on crap.
> 
> If making Slimline or other pens, buy quality in bulk and you and your customers will not be disappointed.



Just as a tidbit of information - something marked just" R.O.C" is probably from Taiwan.....Taiwan is the Republic of China or Nationalist Republic of China.  Mainland China is the People's Republic of China.


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## Smitty37

jeffnreno said:


> Hi Smitty
> 
> I have bought a bunch of your kits.
> I buy them with the knowledge that they are low tier kits - but fact is they work and if you give away most of the pens you make then who cares.   My pen making is a hobby not a business so the inexpensive chinese pen kits work just fine for a hobby.    If I was selling slimlines I would have a hard time using the cheap kits knowing that the finish will fail quickly.   That being said there is a place for all kits on the market - just as a consumer of pen kits you have to be aware of and set correct expectations for the kits you buy.
> 
> Jeff


I have "heard" that the finish will fail quickly but I can't confirm that since I have had no feedback from my customers in that regard.  If I were making expensive kits I would look at the longer lasting finishes ... but I can get kits (for more money of course) that are titanium gold and should last as long as other titanium kits.  

I don't think anyone makes very many expensive slimline kits.  I think the typical selling price for slims is about $12 - $15 and I know I've never seen one that I'd give more than $20 for.  As pens go that's just about giving them away but they are fun to turn and you can make a lot of them for a little money.


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## RAdams

Smitty37 said:


> Well I ruined 3 or 4 blanks when I first started and I was using Taiwan made kits....truth is I didn't ruin them because of the kits I ruined them because I was not using a pen press in assembling them.


 


I was far from "First starting" I think. When i bought my "cheap" kits, I had already turned quite a few pens, Just never any from Rhizeng. I had no idea there was any difference. I hadn't gotten into all of the "logistics" of penturning yet. In fact, I didnt eve know i bought Chinese kits until they failed and I complained. I attempted to do the same exact thing i had already done with Dayacom kits repeatedly. 

I think the Rhizeng kits are in a tough place in their life. At least the slims are. Turners are afraid of them because of the horror stories and bad experiences. Suppliers have to take a stance of "Hey, It's a chinese kit, what did you expect?" when they get the eventual calls. For some people, It really is a matter of the extra cash paid on Dayacom kits is worth it to avoid the headache of bad fits etc. For some people, the small amount of time spent fixing bad fits is well worth the money saved. 

FYI... I am a big fan of the toothpick keychains from China. They are really close to the Dayacom ones IMO. The rings are usually stuck closed, but thats easily repaired!


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## Smitty37

RAdams said:


> I was far from "First starting" I think. When i bought my "cheap" kits, I had already turned quite a few pens, Just never any from Rhizeng. I had no idea there was any difference. I hadn't gotten into all of the "logistics" of penturning yet. In fact, I didnt eve know i bought Chinese kits until they failed and I complained. I attempted to do the same exact thing i had already done with Dayacom kits repeatedly.
> 
> I think the Rhizeng kits are in a tough place in their life. At least the slims are. Turners are afraid of them because of the horror stories and bad experiences. Suppliers have to take a stance of "Hey, It's a chinese kit, what did you expect?" when they get the eventual calls. For some people, It really is a matter of the extra cash paid on Dayacom kits is worth it to avoid the headache of bad fits etc. For some people, the small amount of time spent fixing bad fits is well worth the money saved.
> 
> FYI... I am a big fan of the toothpick keychains from China. They are really close to the Dayacom ones IMO. The rings are usually stuck closed, but thats easily repaired!




If you had any idea of how many Rizheng slimline kits I sell and how many of them are to repeat buyers you wouldn't say what you just said about pen turners being afraid of them.  I am a small seller working out of my home and I sell about 600 or so Rizheng kits every week. about half of them are to repeat buyers and you can check my feedback smithlss at eBay and see what my customers say....


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## wolftat

Smitty37 said:


> I have "heard" that the finish will fail quickly but I can't confirm that since I have had no feedback from my customers in that regard. If I were making expensive kits I would look at the longer lasting finishes ... but I can get kits (for more money of course) that are titanium gold and should last as long as other titanium kits.
> 
> I don't think anyone makes very many expensive slimline kits. I think the typical selling price for slims is about $12 - $15 and I know I've never seen one that I'd give more than $20 for. As pens go that's just about giving them away but they are fun to turn and you can make a lot of them for a little money.


 Obviously we have a different view on the way pricing should go, I start selling at $20 and go up from there and I sell a lot of the slimlines. I can also purchase Berea Titanium Gold slimline kits for $3.15 a kit and I really don't care where they are made, what I care about is that they are good quality, I can always get more, and I can always contact a person that speaks english if there is any sort of a problem. You may be able to get kits that are plated the same way, but the issue is the quality of the plating and the fact that the kits don't have a track record yet will be their downfall until they are proven.
 I think a lot of people are reacting to the issue of the Chinese made pens from one company where if you have a problem with an order their answer is" we will fix it with your next order", I personally am not satisfied with that type of answer, if I have a problem with an order and it isn't fixed there isn't going to be a next order.


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## Smitty37

wolftat said:


> Obviously we have a different view on the way pricing should go, I start selling at $20 and go up from there and I sell a lot of the slimlines. I can also purchase Berea Titanium Gold slimline kits for $3.15 a kit and I really don't care where they are made, what I care about is that they are good quality, I can always get more, and I can always contact a person that speaks english if there is any sort of a problem. You may be able to get kits that are plated the same way, but the issue is the quality of the plating and the fact that the kits don't have a track record yet will be their downfall until they are proven.
> I think a lot of people are reacting to the issue of the Chinese made pens from one company where if you have a problem with an order their answer is" we will fix it with your next order", I personally am not satisfied with that type of answer, if I have a problem with an order and it isn't fixed there isn't going to be a next order.



Hey if you are selling slimline pens for over $20.00 that's great... around here for that price there are lots of slims for sale....but not many sold.  And as I said, I've never seen a slimline that I'd give over $20.00 for.

What you seem to be saying is that you've found a vendor that you like and have confidence in and have had good dealings with in the past...that's great, they've earned your business, but it's not the issue.  The issue is if the item (not the store where you buy it) is worth that much more.


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## Smitty37

*Dealing...Chinese vs Taiwan*

I've had some mention in this thread about the difficulty in dealing with a Chinese company....true enough but they sell retai whilel at least Dayacom from Taiwan does not (and since I have not found a retail dealer from Taiwan I suspect there aren't any---but I could be wrong about that). Their website sends you to Woodcraft for retail quantities.

Comparing dealing with a US Retailer vs a Chinese Retailer is going to be different.  But that has nothing to do with the value of the product.  I have no qualms about telling you that if you buy (my supplier) kits from me you'll get just one he-- of a lot better service than if you buy them direct before, during and after the sale than if you buy them direct (and probably pay less in total cost per kit as well).  But customer service was not the issue I was raising.

The issue is this...I can get Taiwan made kits to sell....I can get Chinese made kits to sell. Should people be happy to pay me about 2 to 2 1/2 times as much and buy the Taiwan made kits?  They would get the same service (as good as I can make it) in eiither case.


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## jttheclockman

Smitty37 said:


> I've had some mention in this thread about the difficulty in dealing with a Chinese company....true enough but they sell retai whilel at least Dayacom from Taiwan does not (and since I have not found a retail dealer from Taiwan I suspect there aren't any---but I could be wrong about that). Their website sends you to Woodcraft for retail quantities.
> 
> Comparing dealing with a US Retailer vs a Chinese Retailer is going to be different. But that has nothing to do with the value of the product. I have no qualms about telling you that if you buy (my supplier) kits from me you'll get just one he-- of a lot better service than if you buy them direct before, during and after the sale than if you buy them direct (and probably pay less in total cost per kit as well). But customer service was not the issue I was raising.
> 
> The issue is this...I can get Taiwan made kits to sell....I can get Chinese made kits to sell. Should people be happy to pay me about 2 to 2 1/2 times as much and buy the Taiwan made kits? They would get the same service (as good as I can make it) in eiither case.


 


Hello Smitty

I stayed out of this conversation for 2 reasons I do not make or sell any slimlines of any sort and never will. I have my reasons. Second is what are you trying to say just does not make sense. Why are your buyers asking where the pen is made???  Are you talking about your kits that you seem to be selling???  If that is the case then they have every right to know where they come from and if they have a preference what difference does that make to you???

I don't know but i reread this thread a couple times already and just don't get the question.


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## PenMan1

I worry about lead content in mainland China kits! They put lead in everything else (yes, even children and infant products and toys). The extra $1 for the R.O.C. kits sure gives me a lot more piece of mind.

The Last thing I need is to be selling pens made with lead.


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## Smitty37

jttheclockman said:


> Hello Smitty
> 
> I stayed out of this conversation for 2 reasons I do not make or sell any slimlines of any sort and never will. I have my reasons. Second is what are you trying to say just does not make sense. Why are your buyers asking where the pen is made???  Are you talking about your kits that you seem to be selling???  If that is the case then they have every right to know where they come from and if they have a preference what difference does that make to you???
> 
> I don't know but i reread this thread a couple times already and just don't get the question.


I did not say my buyers are asking where the kits I sell are made.

The original question was is it worth it to spend the extra money to get kits made in Taiwan rather than China.  

Some of the answers referred to poor service from a Chinese vendor selling Chinese made kits and an American Vendor(s) selling Taiwan made kits.

Hence the question....I am a seller...I can get either or both Chinese or Taiwanese kits to sell.  So I phrased the question to try to eliminate the Chinese vendor and have people thinking only about the kits....

Hope that helps


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## Smitty37

PenMan1 said:


> I worry about lead content in mainland China kits! They put lead in everything else (yes, even children and infant products and toys). The extra $1 for the R.O.C. kits sure gives me a lot more piece of mind.
> 
> The Last thing I need is to be selling pens made with lead.



Only the enamel colored kits (black enamel, blue enamel, red enamel and green enamel) have paint of any kind...to clear US customs the Vendor signs a statement with each shipment that states they are in compliance with the applicable US law.


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## wdcav1952

This thread is a total advertising campaign.

Also, I find your signature amusing since you defend Chinese made pen kits so vigorously.


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## Smitty37

wdcav1952 said:


> This thread is a total advertising campaign.
> 
> Also, I find your signature amusing since you defend Chinese made pen kits so vigorously.



  No names of my product have been mentioned, no actual prices have been mentioned by me, and there has been no indication of where to go to buy my products...so what has been advertised.????

I have not defended the Chinese kits at all.  I have never even said the quality of the Chinese made kits were equal to the Taiwanese kits. Or questioned anyone who said they weren't.


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## witz1976

Smitty37 said:


> ...
> 
> 7. You can check my prices at www.smittyspenworks.com



This was taken from your very first post.  Is this not an advertisement?


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## TellicoTurning

Not that it makes one whit of nevermind to me, but has part of this thread been deleted?
There was an exchange between Smitty and me regarding the marking of imported items... in reply to my statement that by law the country of origin must be marked on all imported items... 
Smitty asked "Yeah and how much importing have you done"  to which I replied that I had worked 40 years in the international shipping industry, more exports than imports, but I did know the import laws - at least the ones in effect when I still worked.

That exchange seems to have been deleted.   As I said, it makes not one whit of difference to me, I was just looking to pick up the thread from that last post as it was where I left the thread and forum.  I like to pick up threads from the last post I've read and then read forward from there... keeps things in prospective. 

BTW, Smitty, I found your response to my statement a little snide, but the thread was quite informative none the less.


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## jttheclockman

Smitty37 said:


> I did not say my buyers are asking where the kits I sell are made.
> 
> The original question was is it worth it to spend the extra money to get kits made in Taiwan rather than China.
> 
> Some of the answers referred to poor service from a Chinese vendor selling Chinese made kits and an American Vendor(s) selling Taiwan made kits.
> 
> Hence the question....I am a seller...I can get either or both Chinese or Taiwanese kits to sell. So I phrased the question to try to eliminate the Chinese vendor and have people thinking only about the kits....
> 
> Hope that helps


 

No that really doesn't help. You get your kits wherever you want to. That is your business and you sell what you want to sell and we as buyers will buy what we want to buy. If there is a problem buying from a particular vendor then you stop buying from them. I think you are asking a question that there is no answer to. If you are trying to tell us how good a deal you get your pen kits then not sure what you want from the membership. You are talking about the bottom of the pen kit list of pens anyway. I am stepping away from this because I still do not get it. Hope you find the answers you are looking for.


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## Smitty37

jttheclockman said:


> No that really doesn't help. You get your kits wherever you want to. That is your business and you sell what you want to sell and we as buyers will buy what we want to buy. If there is a problem buying from a particular vendor then you stop buying from them. I think you are asking a question that there is no answer to. If you are trying to tell us how good a deal you get your pen kits then not sure what you want from the membership. You are talking about the bottom of the pen kit list of pens anyway. I am stepping away from this because I still do not get it. Hope you find the answers you are looking for.



 Sorry but I can't seem to frame the issue so you get the drift.  The issue was simply is it worth the difference in price to buy kits made in Taiwan rather than Chinese.  Regardless of who you buy them from.  The waters did get muddied.


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## Smitty37

TellicoTurning said:


> Not that it makes one whit of nevermind to me, but has part of this thread been deleted?
> There was an exchange between Smitty and me regarding the marking of imported items... in reply to my statement that by law the country of origin must be marked on all imported items...
> Smitty asked "Yeah and how much importing have you done"  to which I replied that I had worked 40 years in the international shipping industry, more exports than imports, but I did know the import laws - at least the ones in effect when I still worked.
> 
> That exchange seems to have been deleted.   As I said, it makes not one whit of difference to me, I was just looking to pick up the thread from that last post as it was where I left the thread and forum.  I like to pick up threads from the last post I've read and then read forward from there... keeps things in prospective.
> 
> BTW, Smitty, I found your response to my statement a little snide, but the thread was quite informative none the less.



I didn't steal your post.....

It wasn't intended to be snide...your statement respecting import laws had zero to do with the issue.


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## Smitty37

witz1976 said:


> This was taken from your very first post.  Is this not an advertisement?


I stand corrected...I did mention where you can buy my stuff...


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## Smitty37

*closed*

Sorry this thread didn't generate the discussion I was interested in.  But I got a lot of information to add to my collection of trivia.  I would ask that there be no more posts intended for me because I'm going to unsubscribe and won't be reading them.

The most recent posts all seem to be centered around "import laws" and whether or not I am advertising in this thread.  Even though nearly all of my posts after the first one were in response to other posts.

I have no need to advertise on this forum...I sell fairly often on the business classified forum and in fact had a sale (now ended) running there during this thread which I never mentioned (got a couple of sales from it too)

I did have a couple of interesting exchanges off-forum where the issue actually got discussed.

Thanks to all who participated...
All the Best
Smitty


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## craigie01

Hello, 

I'm new to pen making and a new member of this association. Can anyone tell me a good manufacturer or supplier of 7mm fancy slim line pen kits please. Having supply issues in Australia so if possible I will buy direct. I would also like to be able to speak with a manufacturer about having pen clips made in the design of a 303, SLR and Styre rifles. I make pens from old military brass in 303 and 308 caliber's and use a genuine milled projectile. If possible I would like to speak to a supplier about buying kits similar
to those sold by Smitty's pen supplies. I don't need the pen tip or clip as I use a rifle pen clip and as I said a bullet for the tip. 

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks
CRAIGIE


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## mark james

Hi Craigie!

This may not be the best thread to ask for "customer relations" questions!!! .

That being said, I would check out the various IAP Member Vendors (Look above in "Vendor Catalogs and Vendor Forums) :tongue:.

Here are several recent:

http://www.penturners.org/forum/f275/

There are many resources to satisfy your wallet!!!

Google:  Pen Turners Supplies.

Have Fun and ask more questions!  (Sorry you hooked into a heated debate a few years back!).

Be Well!  Mark


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## craigie01

Sorry,


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