# Alternate mandrel sources?



## Johntop (May 30, 2008)

The consensus in an earlier thread seemed to be that closer tolerances between tube and mandrel could eliminate much of the play that tends to throw tubes out of true concentric.  Joe Collazo offered mandrels that were .249" (for the "A") as opposed to the .246+/- .001 that seem to be standard everywhere else I've bought.  Unfortunately the day I tried to place an order was the day he went out of business.  Arrggggg.

Before I go to a machine shop and ask for custom work I'm hoping there are other sources out there that might have "standard" mandrels that offer a little tighter fit than what I've been able to obtain.  

Any advice from anyone?


----------



## Larry Gottlieb (May 30, 2008)

Email Joe with what you wish to buy.
I did yesterday and placed the order today.

Larry


----------



## jcollazo (May 30, 2008)

Larry, I had refunded John's order because I no longer had any rods in the lengths he wanted. Your order is fine because the ones you ordered are shorter than average. After your order, it will be about a month before I get any more rods in.


----------



## Randy_ (May 31, 2008)

The 7mm mandrel I got from Joe was 0.247" and is a very snug fit on the 7mm tubes that I have.  I think you will find a 0.249" mandrel to be too big to fit most 7mm tubes.

Berea advertises their mandrels to be 0.247" plus0.0 minus0.002".  Mandrels from CSUSA and PSI tend to be a thou or two smaller.


----------



## Chuck Key (May 31, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Johntop_
> 
> 
> 
> ...



When you go to the machine shop and ask for exactly .249 you will only get an exact diameter.  You will also need to specify where you would like the hole for the center and the the distance off center you will accept.  Lets say you get one that is exactly in the center and you end up with a perfect mandrel.  The next thing to ask yourself is how much play do I have in the bearing in the live center I am using. Will .0005 work?  Will .0002 do.  Will a dead center with no bearings be a better choice?  What about the headstock bearings?  What is acceptable play there?   

Chuckie


----------



## PaulDoug (May 31, 2008)

I just bought a new mandrel from Arizona Silhouette which I'm sure is Berea.  It fits into the 7mm tubes much snugger than my old PSI mandrel.  Heck I didn't know there would be a difference.


----------



## its_virgil (May 31, 2008)

I purchase drill rod and make my own mandrels...whatever length I need or whenever I need a new one. I use letter D drill rod, cut to length, thread one end for the brass nut, and put a 60 degree hole for the live center using a center drill and I'm ready to go. Where are the "between center" players? They are missing an opportunity for a testimonial. 
Do a good turn daily!
Don


I just bought a new mandrel from Arizona Silhouette which I'm sure is Berea.  It fits into the 7mm tubes much snugger than my old PSI mandrel.  Heck I didn't know there would be a difference.
[/quote]


----------



## nava1uni (Jun 1, 2008)

Where or from whom do you purchase the drill rod?  I would like to get some. Thanks for the conversation in Utah.
Thanks,
Cindy


----------



## its_virgil (Jun 1, 2008)

Hi Cindy,
I had a great time and I do hope you did also. I enjoyed doing the demos and talking about making pens and I do hope you left the symposium with lots of useful info.

I purchase drill rods from either:
 Enco (http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRAR?PMSECT=0000000750) or
 MSC (http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/N2SRHI?PMSECT=749)

Here is the link to the center drill I use for making the small hole in the end of the mandrel for the live center.
http://tinyurl.com/3wk93y

I'm sure you can find these items locally in the San Francisco area. Search for an industrial supply house. I can find drill rod locally at Fastenals for a little more money but no shipping. When I need several rods I order from one of the above places. Do a search for drill rod and you will find several sources.
Do a good turn daily!
Don





> _Originally posted by nava1uni_
> 
> Where or from whom do you purchase the drill rod?  I would like to get some. Thanks for the conversation in Utah.
> Thanks,
> Cindy


----------



## Johntop (Jun 2, 2008)

Joe
I thought you were going to stop making mandrels all together.  If you are getting more stuff in a month does that mean you will still be making mandrels even though your web site it down?  

Randy
Very snugg is exactly what I want.  See my earlier post to see why.  I think this issue is why a lot of people have troubles they attribute to wobble, out of round and lathe excentricity...and why other people don't.  I hear what you say about .249, but the bigger the better if I can get the tubes on.  

Don
Thanks!  I will take a look at these sources tonight and likely be following your footsteps.


----------



## alamocdc (Jun 2, 2008)

I've been quite happy with the mandrels from here.


----------



## babyblues (Jun 2, 2008)

> _Originally posted by its_virgil_
> 
> I purchase drill rod and make my own mandrels...whatever length I need or whenever I need a new one. I use letter D drill rod, cut to length, thread one end for the brass nut, and put a 60 degree hole for the live center using a center drill and I'm ready to go.


Is this done with a metal lathe?


----------



## its_virgil (Jun 2, 2008)

No, I thread the end of the new mandrel with a die held in a handle and thread it by hand.  It is not a difficult task. I cut the rod with a hack saw.
Do a good turn daily!
Don



> _Originally posted by babyblues_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## jcollazo (Jun 2, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Johntop_
> 
> Joe
> I thought you were going to stop making mandrels all together.  If you are getting more stuff in a month does that mean you will still be making mandrels even though your web site it down?



I will, periodically, continue make mandrels. Someone else on IAP has asked if they could step in and make mandrels and I said go ahead. When they are ready they'll announce it.

If you look in my photo album, you'll see some of the steps and tools I use in making a mandrel. You don't need a metal lathe. 
http://www.penturners.org/forum/photo_album_view.asp?cname=mandrel&mid=2573&cid=4264

I use the D size drill rods for most of the A rods. There have been a couple of users who wanted a bit thicker. In those cases I've used 6.3mm drill rod which is .2480". It is a very snug fit and I will usually quickly run some 800 grit wet/dry followed by a rubout with Brasso to make sure the rod fits. The 6.3mm rod came from one of my Chinese suppliers which is why it'll be at least a month, if not more, before I get any in (min. order is $500).


----------



## jcollazo (Jun 2, 2008)

> _Originally posted by nava1uni_
> 
> Where or from whom do you purchase the drill rod?  I would like to get some. Thanks for the conversation in Utah.
> Thanks,
> Cindy



Mcmaster-Carr ( http://www.mcmaster.com ) has it. Part #88755K44  $2.54 each (36")


----------



## Johntop (Jun 2, 2008)

Thanks again Joe.  So how much of the 6.3 do you get for $500?  I'm going to take a look at the center drill Don mentioned, and it sounds like we could get some folks to split an order of rod if ya wanna go divs...I'm in for $100.


----------



## bitshird (Jun 2, 2008)

Why use mandrels? Slimlines are a bit of a problem turning on centers, but CNCjohnie makes a nifty bushing set for them, and you can take your other bushings to a local friendly machine shop and for a slight bribe, maybe a pen, they can chuck up your bushings and in seconds re drill the back ends with a center drill and you wont have to bother with the cumbersome easily bent, mandrels, If you have a beal system just buy a couple of center drills, HF sells a set for about 7 bucks redrill your own,the 60 degree hole need not be real deep, your dead center will grab it easily.
 A company called Fastenall has locations all over the US we even have on in a hick town of less than 4,000 and can get you drill rod cheap from 1/16 up to 1 inch, no freight in stock for common sizes most of the time, prices about the same as Enco, & cheaper than Mc Mster Carr or MSC although Enco does carry Delrin which you can also turn on a wood lathe and make CA resistant bushings great for sanding and CA application..[:I][)][8D]


----------



## Randy_ (Jun 2, 2008)

> _Originally posted by PaulDoug_
> 
> I just bought a new mandrel from Arizona Silhouette which I'm sure is Berea.  It fits into the 7mm tubes much snugger than my old PSI mandrel.  Heck I didn't know there would be a difference.



Paul:  According to their catalog, the PSI mandrel is 0.243" in diamater.  That makes it 0.004" smaller than the Berea mandrel and maybe even more depending upon manufacturing tolerances.


----------



## Randy_ (Jun 2, 2008)

> _Originally posted by its_virgil_
> 
> Hi Cindy,
> I had a great time and I do hope you did also. I enjoyed doing the demos and talking about making pens and I do hope you left the symposium with lots of useful info.
> ...



Don:  I just checked out the Enco link and did not find any "D" drill rod for sale??  Did I miss something?


----------



## Rmartin (Jun 2, 2008)

> Where are the "between center" players? They are missing an opportunity for a testimonial.



Here I am! Right here! Here I am!

Turn between centers, and you will never turn back


----------



## Randy_ (Jun 2, 2008)

> _Originally posted by alamocdc_
> 
> I've been quite happy with the mandrels from here.



Billy:  Do you know how to reach these folks?  There is no phone number listed that I can find and their customer service page seems to provide for an email option; but it isn't working.


----------



## Randy_ (Jun 2, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Johntop_
> 
> .....Randy
> Very snugg is exactly what I want.  See my earlier post to see why.  I think this issue is why a lot of people have troubles they attribute to wobble, out of round and lathe excentricity...and why other people don't.  I hear what you say about .249, but the bigger the better if I can get the tubes on.....



John:  I would certainly agree with you that the closer the fit of the mandrel and the tube (or bushings), the better your turnings will be.  That being said, my gut feeling is that most folks who have problems of the type you mention are due, primarily, to factors other than ill-fitting mandrels.  When you find a mandrel that fits to your satisfaction, let us know if it makes any significant difference in your turning results.

Just out of curiosity, I made a few measurements to confirm or refuted my memory.  My PSI 7mm tubes measure 0.2465"-0.247" ID.  Because of the geometry of the inside of the tube and the jaws of a dial caliper this type of measurement will result in a measurement that is slightly undersize; but I am not sure exactly how much.  I don't think it is a significant amount for the purposes of this discussion.   

After seeing Joe's comment about using "D" drill rod for his "A" mandrels, I went back and measured the one I got from him and it actually measured 0.2455" rather than the 0.247" I stated earlier.  I also remeasured my Berea mandrel and it measured 0.246" plus a hair; but definitely less that 0.2465" which is as close as I can interpolate on my caliper.  If Joe will make you a mandrel that is 0.249" go ahead an try it; but I strongly suspect that it will be to large to slip into a 7mm tube at all.  If that proves to be the case, you can always take some 600 grit sandpaper and polish it down a bit to the point where it will fit.


----------



## Randy_ (Jun 2, 2008)

> _Originally posted by bitshird_
> 
> Why use mandrels? Slimlines are a bit of a problem turning on centers, but CNCjohnie makes a nifty bushing set for them.....



Apparently, you missed the post by Johnny that he is getting out of the bushing business.


----------



## johnnycnc (Jun 2, 2008)

For the record, I am NOT getting out of the bushing business.
I have closed my ad here,to facilitate moving to my
new website,with a shopping cart.
There will</u> be an "interruption" in supply,but this is
necessary for me to grow. Running very small orders thru the machines,
with near constant changeover/setup,is very inefficient.

I am actively working on larger volumes being available,
and will be going forward,as funds allow. patience,please.[:I]
Thank you.



> _Originally posted by Randy__
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## its_virgil (Jun 2, 2008)

Well, I purchased some from someone. I bought several 36" rods and have not needed to purchase more. I buy lost of stuff from MSC and Enco. Anyway, here is a source if you are looking for some. 
http://www.toolsandsupplies.com/detail.asp?product_id=SA 44056
Otherwise, you caught me giving erroneous information. Anyone wanting size D drill need only do a quick google search to find all they would ever need. 
Do a good turn daily!
Don


> _Originally posted by Randy__
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## its_virgil (Jun 2, 2008)

Why turn between centers? Because you like to?  Some of us like using mandrels and have no problem at all with them getting bent or our pens being out of round. Because I have no problem with mandrels, I see no reason to spend the $$$$$ for special bushings. I have nothing against johnnycnc or anyone else. I guess I'll push turning with a mandrel as long as turning between centers is constantly being touted.
Do a good turn daily!
Don


> _Originally posted by bitshird_
> 
> Why use mandrels?


----------



## DCBluesman (Jun 2, 2008)

Don - Your Enco link will get you to "D" drill rod.  You gave this info before and that's where I got mine!  And yes, I use a mandrel, too!


----------



## its_virgil (Jun 2, 2008)

Thanks Lou. I thought so, but...nbw I can't find it on the Enco site. Oh well, it is readily available from several other sources.
Do a good turn daily!
Don


> _Originally posted by DCBluesman_
> 
> Don - Your Enco link will get you to "D" drill rod.  You gave this info before and that's where I got mine!  And yes, I use a mandrel, too!


----------



## johnnycnc (Jun 2, 2008)

That's good to know,Don.
And,btw,you may have noticed that I do NOT
jump in all the mandrel vs centers debates,and I do NOT
push my bushings,or between centers for that matter.
I know many turners get good results with a mandrel,
and will not force my way on anyone.
I also find no reason to rehash the same thing over,and over,and over.....
The only reason I posted to this thread is because my name
was being brought up,and brought up
with some inaccurate information associated.
And thanks for spelling my user-name correctly,you are one of few.
You are one of the good guys here,Don.
You have my respect and always will.



> _Originally posted by its_virgil_
> 
> I have nothing against johnnycnc or anyone else. I guess I'll push turning with a mandrel as long as turning between centers is constantly being touted.
> Do a good turn daily!
> Don


----------



## its_virgil (Jun 2, 2008)

Well, thanks for those kind words. I just didn't want you to think I was down on you after you read  my comments about using a mandrel vs between center turning. I know there are several here who get excellent results with your bushings and those who get excellent results with a mandrel. I've turned between centers using a set of your bushings and they work great. The are all that you and others claim them to be. I wish you luck with the new website and if I ever have the need to turn between centers I will definitely be ordering your bushings. 

Thanks for correcting the erroneous info about you and your bushings. Good to hear you will be selling them again soon.

do a good turn daily!
Don



> _Originally posted by johnnycnc_
> 
> That's good to know,Don.
> And,btw,you may have noticed that I do NOT
> ...


----------



## Randy_ (Jun 2, 2008)

> _Originally posted by johnnycnc_
> 
> For the record, I am NOT getting out of the bushing business......



My apologies to John. I didn't read his notice carefully enough.  Here is what he said:



> Folks,I'm exhausted,worn down,and just burnt out on
> bushings.Repeat that 10x and you'll only begin to understand.
> I have only two hands,and they are not enough
> to keep up with even half the demand for bushings.
> ...


----------



## Randy_ (Jun 2, 2008)

> _Originally posted by DCBluesman_
> 
> Don - Your Enco link will get you to "D" drill rod.  You gave this info before and that's where I got mine!  And yes, I use a mandrel, too!



I'm not disputing the fact that folks have purchased "D" drill rod from Enco in the past; but it does not seem to show up on their current web site, now.  They have 218 listings for drill rod and none are for "D" sized rod.


----------



## johnnycnc (Jun 2, 2008)

Thanks,Randy.
No apology needed,but I appreciate it.
Have a great evening!


----------



## its_virgil (Jun 2, 2008)

I went and looked and I could not find it myself. I suppose there are not enough penturners needing mandrels to warrant them stocking any longer.
Do a good turn daily!
Don


> _Originally posted by Randy__
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## DCBluesman (Jun 2, 2008)

Ok, I went back to my receipts and I was wrong.  The source is MSC, part # 06019046.  Sorry for any confusion I may have caused.


----------



## alamocdc (Jun 2, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Randy__
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Not really. I've just always ordered from the web site and left it at that. They used to sell them under the name Bargain Humidors, but recently moved the wood turning stuff to a dedicated site. Both "A" and "B" mandrels have proven well for me, but I did go from using the MT2 attachment to my Beall collet chuck since I have one. The material is of good quality and the mandrels I bought from them 3 years ago are still fully functional.

And FWIW, while I now do most of my turning between centers, I do still use a mandrel ocassionally. Mainly for finishing, but I do use them.


----------



## Johntop (Jun 3, 2008)

Randy Said:
John: I would certainly agree with you that the closer the fit of the mandrel and the tube (or bushings), the better your turnings will be. That being said, my gut feeling is that most folks who have problems of the type you mention are due, primarily, to factors other than ill-fitting mandrels. When you find a mandrel that fits to your satisfaction, let us know if it makes any significant difference in your turning results.
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;

Thanks Randy.  In a previous post I already described a kluggy method I used to increase the diameter of a mandrel to close the tolerance between tube and mandrel, and I can report for sure it made a huge difference in the final product.  When I see what most of the local guys consider "good" results its clear they have very similar proplems and just accept the results.  I have also become convinced a lot of the discussion in this forum about eccentric turnings, mandrel "whip" and other problems are really related to this issue.  Since tolerence varies its hard to reproduce sometimes, hence the endless recycle on this topic.

This thread came about as my search continues for better tools.  Recognizing that tubes are not all identical even from the same supplier I suspect I will end up wanting a couple mandrels in about .001" increments.  I've just started turning between centers for 8mm, but for 7mm I am likely to continue to use mandrels.

Thanks for everyone's input on this.  I wish I'd found this forum months ago!

John
281-222-2052


----------



## Blind_Squirrel (Jun 3, 2008)

I use my mandrel to true up the tail stock on my mini metal lathe


----------



## Randy_ (Jun 4, 2008)

John:  Somehow I missed your original post on the subject; but searched for it and brought myself up to date on your difficulties and efforts to resolve same.



> ....So I just got a private note with some info I thought I'd share. I guess a lot of you on this board already know Joe (Jcollazo), but his A mandrels are listed as "about .249". That would mean at least .003 less slop than all the ones I have bought so far (from 4 different suppliers and typically between .245 and .246). I'm ordering one today and will let you guys know what my experience is.....



Did you get your "fat" mandrel from Joe yet and have you had any success with it.  Did it measure about 0.249"  or is it closer to 0.246" which is what might be expected if Joe used "D" drill rod stock?  

As to your concerns about seeing and feeling turning errors in the range of 0.003", you may be seeing and feeling problems that others don't even know exist.  I found some literature on the Internet that suggested the lower limit for touch for most humans is a step of 0.003".  And even that is pretty tough for many to detect if the step is eased a bit rather than being a 90Â° step.  I would also guess that
a good percentage of 50 year old eyes could not see a 3/1000" step without the aid of a loupe.  Maybe you are one of the special folks who has exceptional physical abilities and are seeing problems the rest of us don't even know to exist.    

I'm, still concerned that a 0.249" mandrel won't fit any of our 7mm tubes.  If I recall, you said you built up a mandrel to 0.2475" and it was quite snug in the bushings and the tubes.

This is a very interesting discussion and of interest to the many turners who have trouble making well fitting pens.  Do keep us informed of your efforts.


----------

