# Question for the membership---RULES



## Gary Max (Feb 7, 2006)

Over the last couple of days I have talked to several IAP members about some of the resent negitive posts on this site.
One question that has come up is------What rules would the membership like to have. Something in the thought of good citizenship ---bashing ---name calling or just being a jerk in general.
So I want to ask the folks here to come up with more than 5 and less than 10 rules of conduct.
I am asking this question because I want to see if other folks agree with me or not.
This post is my thought and does not mean there will be rules.


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## gerryr (Feb 7, 2006)

I guess I'll be the first to jump into this.

The biggest problem with rules of any kind is that someone has to enforce them even when a personal friend crosses the line and violates them.  I frequent another site similar to this, but unrelated to pen making, where the rules are fairly strictly enforced by a single person.  You cannot post there if you donâ€™t use your real first and last name, name calling and foul language are not allowed and everyone is expected to be civil to everyone else.  Unfortunately, rude behavior seems to be too easily tolerated and being on the internet makes it easy to be rude since you never have to face the person youâ€™re attacking.

That said, I would like to see some rules about civil discourse here because I think some of what has been posted here in the last couple of months is childish at best and certainly rude.  Too much of it has sounded like some spoiled brat.  So here are what I would like to see in the way of rules, not in any particular order.

1.  No insulting remarks about someoneâ€™s work.
2.  No personal attacks.
3.  When registering, you must include your real first and last name in your profile.
4.  Posts that violate either of the first two rules will be deleted.
5.  Having three posts removed will result in the user being banned from the site.
6.  Taking credit for someone elseâ€™s work will result in banishment.

I may have to edit this later if I think of anything else.


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## Rifleman1776 (Feb 7, 2006)

There is only one rule. And that says that what is allowed or not allowed is by the decision of the owner/moderator. Members have no input into that process, unless asked by the owner, or possibly in off-forum private communications. Jeff is the guy. I don't always agree with his decisions. But he is always the guy and the decisions are his. Enuf said.


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## Skye (Feb 7, 2006)

Rule suggestion:

1. No backseat moderating. If the mod wants to lay down some laws, that's his job. Not yours. If you want it your way, head to Burger King or make your own forum.


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## JimGo (Feb 7, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Skye_
> <br />Rule suggestion:
> 
> 1. No backseat moderating. If the mod wants to lay down some laws, that's his job. Not yours. If you want it your way, head to Burger King or make your own forum.


Or vounteer to be a moderator.  You'll quickly appreciate that it is a thankless job that tends to limit your ability to participate in this forum, as some here have learned.

Gary, with all due respect, I don't know that rules are necessary other than those we currently have in place.  There will always be sniping, but I think that we generally do a good job of self-regulation.  I've seen members smack-down others who are their friends on here when they get out of line, and I've seen moderators do it both in public and in private.  It seems to work out pretty well most of the time.  Fortunately (or unfortunately?) I missed the latest round of bashing, and that's been my new policy - if a thread starts to get messy, I just don't read it any more.


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## Thumbs (Feb 7, 2006)

What did I miss?[}]


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## rtjw (Feb 7, 2006)

When did Jeff sell the site?

Dang it Jeff, I asked first!


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## rtjw (Feb 7, 2006)

> _Originally posted by gerryr_
> <br />1.  No insulting remarks about someoneâ€™s work.
> 2.  No personal attacks.
> 3.  When registering, you must include your real first and last name in your profile.
> ...



1. so you cant say anything bad about anything. WOW, now thats really P.C. gone overboard.

5. Dang it. I only got one chance left then.

7. Does my inventing the pen count towards that!


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## timdaleiden (Feb 7, 2006)

There are already rules in place. At the bottom of each page there is a link to the TOS (terms of service). There is a section that deals with member conduct. 

Tim


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## dubdrvrkev (Feb 7, 2006)

Well the way I see it. Some people are jerks and they always will be whether on the net or off. Maybe they are only a jerk in your opinion, maybe they are in most peoples opinion, so be it. Nothing forces anybody to type a response or read a thread. There are people I don't care for, I don't read their threads and if I happen across a response of theirs, where they are being childish or whatever, I just go on. Its not worth the time or energy to feed into their baiting remarks. 
I use lots of forums for different things, this happens to be the only pen turning forum I frequent, one sand box is enough for me. If I didn't like it I'd find anohter that was more suited to my taste.
My rule #1 would be "don't be an 'A' hole". If you have to ask if you are one....
 [}]


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## Dario (Feb 7, 2006)

Amen to what Kevin said.

I just wish I have the same "control" and "discipline" to just look the other way. I guess I am guilty for taking the bait sometimes [V][B)].


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## jeff (Feb 7, 2006)

First of all, I don't have any problem with Gary's post.

Here's my opinion. Writing rules is not the problem. Enforcing them is. Tim is correct, at the bottom of every page is a link to the Terms of Service In there you will find under member conduct:



> You may not use any part of the Service to transmit material that is unlawful, harmful, threatening, abusive, harassing, tortuous, defamatory, vulgar, obscene, libelous, invasive of another's privacy, hateful, or racially, ethnically or otherwise objectionable, or which infringes upon the intellectual property, contractual, or fiduciary rights of others.


In plain English, that says "be nice and don't post any bad stuff." The problem is that "nice" and "bad" are totally subjective, and they will always be defined by someone's opinion. 99% of the problems here (and at other sites, pen and otherwise) result from disagreements over how the rules are enforced. It's just impossible to get everybody to agree what contitutes rude, flaming, offensive behavior. 

Solve that problem and you'll go down in Internet history.


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## Gary Max (Feb 7, 2006)

5.  Having three posts removed will result in the user being banned from the site.


5. Dang it. I only got one chance left then.

I really like this from Johnny---he is right---I agree with him
I think this means he also just used his last chance.


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## coach (Feb 7, 2006)

Dang Gary you really do think you are in charge here don't you.  Kind of hypocritical I think, asking everyone to play nice then trying to get people banned.


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## gerryr (Feb 7, 2006)

Johnny, you might try reading the words once rather than trying to twist them into something they are not.  It IS possible to critique someone's work without insulting them.


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## Skye (Feb 7, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Gary Max_
> <br />
> 
> 
> ...



I think it's been said a few times already. <b> No backseat moderating!</b>.

The fabricated 3 deletion rule is <b>your</b> lame idea. Not the forums, so it doesnâ€™t apply. Why? Because your thoughts on what should or should not be deleted is worth less than the sweat on my gym shorts.

Arm chair quarterbacks. What a joke. How about letting the mods decide what the rules should be and what posts are worthy of deletion. Last I checked, they didnâ€™t need your brain cell. Keep that little gem for your own use.




> Johnny, you might try reading the words once rather than trying to twist them into something they are not. It IS possible to critique someone's work without insulting them.



And some people you cant talk to with anything less than baby speak without offending them. We all know people who cant take critisizm at all. Who decides what is offensive? If you offer something constuctive that's taken wrong, then you're a *gasp* rule breaker! How about everyone just grow some thicker skin for crying out loud?


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## Gary Max (Feb 7, 2006)

I was hoping to get something good started here to help clean up this site some.
Seems like it is just going to be something else negitive.

I see now that this is a waste of time.


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## Skye (Feb 7, 2006)

Negativity is part of life. Sink or swim.


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## Ron Mc (Feb 7, 2006)

Gary,
Your right it is a waste of time. Just ignore the posts that you don't want to mess with and keep enjoying the forum.

Skye,
I don't think your last post was necessary at all. Not sure why you decided to post it except to keep stirring the pot.[]


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## Skye (Feb 7, 2006)

Likewise, your telling me your thoughts are unnecessary, but you did it anyhow. We do lots of things that arenâ€™t necessary, your opinion of said things depend on which side of the fence you stand.

He posted a post that didnâ€™t need to be. He decided to take the mod's job upon himself, which he isnâ€™t. It didnâ€™t go down like he thought it would, he whined about it, he got the baby pic. If you cant take being told you're whining, donâ€™t whine about the way the forum is.

Maybe I should create a post telling everyone to list what they dont like about the forum. Dont like the fonts? Dont like the colors? Dont like the emoticon selection? Dont like the software? 

Let the mods do their job.


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## mick (Feb 7, 2006)

> _Originally posted by rtjw_
> <br />
> 7. Does my inventing the pen count towards that!


Johnny we all know that Al Gore invented the pen , just before he invented the internet!!!! [][]


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## timdaleiden (Feb 7, 2006)

Just a thought here folks. The recent articles in "Pen World" magazine happened to mention the International Association of Penturners. 

 This means that actual pen collectors may be lurking around, peaking at albums, and maybe even reading some of the posts here.  Is this how you want to behave in front of potential customers?


Tim


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## AirportFF (Feb 7, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Gary Max_
> <br />
> I was hoping to get something good started here to help clean up this site some.
> Seems like it is just going to be something else negitive.
> ...



Clean up the site?? You have got to be kidding. This has got to be the mildest site I belong to. It's a buch of folks with a interest in making pens, how wild and crazy is that....Try hanging on some of the motorycle forums I moderate on. Especially the uncensored ones, now that gets lively. And for the most part, pretty damn fun. I'm sure I missed the thread that this is directed at, but for God's sake, more rules aren't going to solve the problem. If somebody stepped on your toes, shoot them an email and discuss it off site. Why air your dirty laundry for everyone??


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## C_Ludwigsen (Feb 7, 2006)

Nope.  Ain't gonna say nuthin' [].  Not touchin' this one.  Nope, not me. []


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## sptfr43 (Feb 7, 2006)

Man!!, I can't believe you used the baby pic on him! that's just not right.[][}]


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## DCBluesman (Feb 7, 2006)

There's at least a half dozen good reasons not to visit this site on a regular basis in this thread alone.


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## woodbutcher (Feb 7, 2006)

I'm trying so hard to be nice.( TO GARY) I don't like rules. I left the military to avoid the call of a bugle every day. If you want rules and regimentation join the marines. You will have a ball! I prefer to think AND speak for myself. We are all sitting in front of a computer screen w/ a key board. NOTHING I see here has or will scar me or scare me. I have been in a couple heated conversations here and consider the folks I was "having a discussion with" as friends. Do you  ( Gary ) ever disagree with your wife. Tell her she has 3 chances to before being punished. That I'll bet would make the USMC look like a day off.

                               Jim


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## gerryr (Feb 7, 2006)

Don't blame Gary for suggesting 3 strikes and you're out.  I was the one who suggested it, but he seems to be getting all the heat.


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## woodpens (Feb 7, 2006)

> _Originally posted by DCBluesman_
> <br />There's at least a half dozen good reasons not to visit this site on a regular basis in this thread alone.


There is an obvious Pen Site #1 vs. Pen Site #2 slant going on here. Maybe I should change that to Pen Site A vs. Pen Site B so nobody gets offended. [] Was Pen Site B created for those who don't like rules about behavior?


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## DCBluesman (Feb 7, 2006)

I don't know, Jim.  I've stopped going to almost all of them at this point.  I use to enjoy seeing and talking about pens.  Now it's about who has what right to offend whom.  It gets tedious just wallowing through the chaff to find the wheat.  And that is a shame.


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## rtjw (Feb 7, 2006)

> _Originally posted by woodpens_
> <br />
> 
> 
> ...



Okay, I have to post something and I hope no one gets offended.

I dont see a Pen Site A or a Pen Site B slant. I see some guys that think it is a competition. I dont look at it that way. Jeff and I talk and I think we have a good relationship. The two sites are free to join and anyone can join. I get upset sometimes at people that act like there can only be one site. there is enough info out there and enough turners out there to have 100 sites. As long as you get the info out. That is what I see is the main problem that has occurred since i started TPS. 

Instead of worrying about what site to post on, worry about what information can be posted that is beneficial to turners.

Am I saying that I have done nothing wrong, No. I do plenty wrong. I just wish people would stop bickering about having two sites and just start posting and reading stuff on both sites. You never know you may learn something.


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## alamocdc (Feb 7, 2006)

Lou, if you let the childish few run you off and keep you from contributing then they win. I, for one, have and continue to enjoy your input and postings. You've been missed of late. And I'm sure by more than myself. Is all this really necessary? Of course not. I read what I want, ignore what I find ridiculus and continue to enjoy the the creative and informative posts. All in all, there are still a large number of good people on our forums. The only problem with people is that if you get enough of them together, you get personality clashes. It's the same in face to face. Why should a forum be any different. How do you deal with those folks in the face to face world? I simply ignore them. Just me thinking out loud again.


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