# A problem of definition??



## RussFairfield (May 24, 2008)

I have always been confused about the mission of this new forum, and where "Penturning" stops and where "Advanced Penmaking" begins. Is there a definite line separating them, and where is it?? Is there a gray area between them, and how wide is that gray area?? I suspect there are others who are also confused about the definition of "Advanced" and what is an advanced pen.

The definition of "Advanced" means different things to different people, depending on their level of pencrafting skills.  To the beginner, making their own center-band for a Slim-Line is "advanced". Others see closing the end as "advanced". There are those who see a fountain pen as "advanced", but there is a separate forum for those. For others, anything less than making a pen without using any kit parts cannot be called "advanced". 

If the definition of "advanced" is anything beyond making a bushing-to-bushing pen, then there are a lot of "advanced" pen questions still being asked in the "Penturning" section. If the definition of "Advanced" is the kitless pen, then a lot of us are excluded from this group because we still use a lot of kit parts to make a pen.


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## leehljp (May 24, 2008)

I will let others debate this. I personally think we need a forum called "Dumb it down!" I know I would frequent that one!


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## Ligget (May 24, 2008)

I thought that advanced was making the non-kit pens, but heck I am with Hank in the "Dumb it down" forum! lol


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## rjwolfe3 (May 24, 2008)

I kinda thought this was where all the pen masters post their secrets for us common folk to learn from.[}]


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## LEAP (May 24, 2008)

I had reservations about the whole advanced forum from the start. Just my thoughts on what I'd like to see in the Advanced Forum. When you have tried a new (to you) concept that is  above  the standard kit and made an honest effort to figure it out yourself but are running into a problem then post a question. Or if you are working on a concept again beyond the standard kit that you feel someone may have experience that can help you ask away. The same as for the penturning forum but at a higher level of difficulty. The gray area Russ mentions is bound to be huge. There will always be people on the cutting edge and those who want to skip right to the most difficult concepts without gaining the practice needed by working their way up through projects of increasing difficulties. This is bound to create friction in this forum when someone who has spent a lot of time, effort and money in developing a concept is immediatly asked for the tutorial. Personally I enjoy figuring out how somebody created a unique pen. I've wasted a bunch of kits and materials trying new concepts. For me thats the best part of penmaking. I feel that it has made me a much better craftsman.


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## dalemcginnis (May 24, 2008)

When this forum started I thought it was for making pens without kits.  That modifying an existing kit would still fall into one of the previous categories. As such I have not read much in this forum as I am a long way from reaching the kitless pen stage.  Having said that I do not find the concept of an advanced pen forum in anyway exclusionary or elitist.  After all, I hope to be in that group someday myself.
If there is a concern that the title of this forum might be to broad, rename it to a more specific category like the fountain pen one.  Perhaps "kitless pens"?


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## turned_for_good (May 24, 2008)

Just rename it the Kitless Pen Forum.  All speculation would be over and it doesn't sound as much like I'm better than you because I post in the Advanced forum.


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## ldb2000 (May 24, 2008)

I dont think that advanced pen making means just making a kitless pen , Yoyospin makes advanced pens by going beyond the basic kit like his Rose engine pens and his dohickies 
, and Russ makes his by leaving out kit parts and modifing basic pens to the point that they look very different then the kits they started out being .
I personally think that this forum is more about inovation and experimentation in the field of pen making and that includes almost anything other then B2B pens , and even they can be advanced pens when you do segmenting or any other kind of modification to a basic kit .
For the people who think they can't be included here just remember that at some point in time you WILL make an advanced pen even if you don't think it meets some kind of defined meaning of advanced pen making , I have seen Dip pens that can and should be included here and novel materials used that can also be part of this forum .
The more ideas that get posted here the better for EVERYONE who wants to make a pen and will help someone with an idea that they would like to try .
As for the people who won't post here for fear of being the butt of someones joke take heart , at some point in time the jokers will want to make something different and if you post ideas and solutions then even they will gain from this forum and they will see how wrong they were .
Please keep the forum as it is and don't stop posting your ideas .
As for people asking for tutorials on things , this will happen nomatter what inovations are shown here .
These people can and should try taking apart the ideas of others and 
make a contribution here .
Ok now I'll climb off my soapbox and get back to work on my next project


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## cowchaser (May 24, 2008)

I'll have to say I am a b2b man. I do not learn from reading. I have to see it and actually have someone walk me through it. You can point me to all the tutorials all day long and I can read it 100 times and still don't understand it. Guess it's a learning deficiency or something. Do to this I do look, but don't post in here. I love the new stuff and crazy stuff, but I don't understand how someone got there. Maybe rename it it "Concept Pens" or "New Innovations". I don't know I am babbling. I am at work and bored to death for 12 hours.


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## nava1uni (May 25, 2008)

I make pens using kits, but they don't look like anyone else's.  I modify their appearance, the materials, they are make of and how I make them.  I continue to push the envelope on the slim line so that it is no longer the slim line, except for the components.  Finishing, engraving, etc, make them advanced in their own right.  I read all of the forums to garner information that is generously given by all.  
Sometimes I don't understand the posturing that comes through the comments.  Humor seems to be a necessity for coping with frustration or to just connect with others.  This forum appears to be open to all, as I saw no qualifications to post.  Who gets to decide what is ADVANCED?  I will comment,share, ask questions as I think it is relevant.  
Cindy


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## Texatdurango (May 25, 2008)

Well darn, I just spent 10 minutes writing a long post and it blew away when I hit submit because I was not logged in for some reason.  Rather than rewrite the whole thing may I suggest that those who have not read it, visit the "Welcome" stickie at the top of this forum.  Hopefully it will explain some things and answer some questions.  Elitist, condescending, "I'm better than you"... come on guys and gals, there is none of that so please don't make an issue where there is not one!

I guess to some, nothing can be said about this forum that will make them happy because they were apposed it from the beginning and think it's a waste of time.  To those folks I think the best solution would be to simply skip over the threads rather than read them then hop in and make others defend or justify what they are doing.

If you are a bushing to bushing guy, fine, have fun.  If you see it a waste of time to make a clip when there are perfectly good clips already available, fine, press on.  If you see it as a total waste of good money buying a tap and die just to cut some threads in a cap when there are kits already threaded, fine, to each their own.  BUT, if you think it's a neat idea to cut the top off of a cap, cut some threads on the finale then screw it back on after hiding your custom snazzy clip inside, than post away, others would love to see your work and kick around ideas and share some thoughts.


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## 1JaredSchmidt (May 25, 2008)

I agree with what Rob said. I ain't that smart yet. I've been trying to turn closed end pens,but it's kinda hard.


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## ldb2000 (May 25, 2008)

I ain't gonna let this die...not yet anyway
After reading the Welcome Message for the first time [:0] I think that some clarifcation is in order .
While this forum for Advanced pen making above and beyond the normal B2B kit pen it should be said that EVERYONES input is welcome , NO , Almost required here .
Even if you only make B2B slimlines out of home depot pine there are alot of you that have other hobbies out there and your input might just be the match that lights the fuse for an explosive idea that someone has been trying to figure out .
In another post I'm asking for ANYONE with casting experience for input about types of low melting point metals and PMC .
So PLEASE dont think you have no reason to read or post to this forum because you are not making a kitless pen


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