# One-Source Website?



## Joshua_30

Poll Question: What would be your interest level in developing a one-source webpage for those who would like to sell their pens? 

I've been going back and forth with myself on this idea and I wanted to bring it straight to the men and women of IAP to see if any interest could be generated. 

Do you know of any other websites out there (instead of Ebay/Etsy) that are well-known for selling real-handcrafted pens like seen here on IAP? 

My goal is to address several problem that I see pen turners facing in today economy. Chief among the complaints are (in my opinion)

1.) Relying solely on EBAY/ETSY to sell their items. 
1.) Not enough time to build an effective e-commerce website.
2.) Too much money spent on website builders and shopping carts
3.) No marketing plan (If you build it...they will come) mentality 
4.) Social media shortfalls. 
5.) Competing "noise" on the internet.

I can search through the forum and pull out hundreds of examples, but you guys have been here long enough to see very successful businesses while others barely take-off. I'm looking for another middle ground that doesn't just sell pen turners kits, blanks, in-lays, nibs or other neccessities we care about. I would love to build a webpage where we all display our areas of expertise and make it a one-stop shop for the world. 

Your thoughts?


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## SerenityWoodWorks

In a perfect world that would be great but the first problem I would see is pricing, one person will want to sell a pen for $35 and it will be the same kit that another wants to sell it for $135. It would be Etsy all over again to me.


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## Russianwolf

A long time ago there was a project called the Pen Mall. It was basically the same idea that you are speaking of, but lost steam after a while.


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## edicehouse

I agree with SWW, not only the pricing, then the drama.  How come how come Albert Adams is listed before me Zeely Zobby????


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## Joshua_30

I understand your perspective and know exactly what you mean. The pen industry is a competitive one, but most businesses will look to undercut someone just to grab a sale. The objective for pen turners are to market smartly and remain competitive in their area of expertise...not trying to get as much as humanly possible from a single sale...that typically lead to outsourcing. 

Thank you very much for your comment!


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## Joshua_30

Russianwolf,

Thanks for the quick reply. I see the website is still up...do you know what happened and why they lost steam?


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## Joshua_30

edicehouse said:


> I agree with SWW, not only the pricing, then the drama.  How come how come Albert Adams is listed before me Zeely Zobby????



The pricing is competitive in nature to me and I believe we all do it in some form or fashion.


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## BSea

I voted "unlikely Idea".  Not a bad idea, but I think that SWW hit the nail on the head.  I just think that it would be a major head ache for someone to manage because of the problems most have expressed.  I've thought about something similar, but the more I thought about it, the more problems I saw.  Mostly pricing, and placement.  But also, who takes the photos?  And what about shipping of the pens.  Who keeps inventory?  Who can update the site?


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## Joshua_30

BSea said:


> I voted "unlikely Idea".  Not a bad idea, but I think that SWW hit the nail on the head.  I just think that it would be a major head ache for someone to manage because of the problems most have expressed.  I've thought about something similar, but the more I thought about it, the more problems I saw.  Mostly pricing, and placement.  But also, who takes the photos?  And what about shipping of the pens.  Who keeps inventory?  Who can update the site?



Wow! I was waiting for someone to ask these questions. I WOULD TAKE THAT RESPONSIBILITY! I absolutely love the challenge of dealing with difficult problems (especially websites and project management) It's what I do on a daily basis. 

I would like to take a moment and address each of your concerns:

I've read though A LOT of problems on several woodworking websites and we all have the same type issues, but I personally believe pricing isn't one of them. If you price your items accordingly PROFIT will follow). If your profit area is lower...you will more than likely (depending on quality of product) will make the sale and have repeat customers.

Could you expand on your issue with placement? 

Who would take the photos? If we couldn't get a volunteer from the forum I would seek out someone that would do it on a commission base. This is another topic on our boards and if someone needs "professional" type pictures that is a service someone else could benefit from...and it a known issue, but with a solution. We all can't take the perfect picture because of our lack of knowledge.

The shipping of pens could really be a talking/negotiating point. If the pen artist would like to Fed Ex, UPS or DHL a pen to their new customer would be their option...however it would be an easy task for me to receive the pen from my maker in bundles and then mail to the customer on their behalf as needed.

Who keeps inventory? Another talking/negotiating task. I could keep a storage room full of inventory or the artist could make pens on demand. I guess some would have their preference. 

Who would update the site? This would be the biggest full time job - but again I don't mind the busy work of updating as long as it's built in the beginning. I have a couple certifications and a degree focused on web design coupled with Lean Six Sigma experience. 

I personally love the idea and am really excited, but I need support and identification of potential issues. I'm counting on you guys for that advice!

Thank you for your vote and response!


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## BSea

Joshua_30 said:


> Wow! I was waiting for someone to ask these questions. I WOULD TAKE THAT RESPONSIBILITY! I absolutely love the challenge of dealing with difficult problems (especially websites and project management) It's what I do on a daily basis.
> 
> I would like to take a moment and address each of your concerns:
> 
> I've read though A LOT of problems on several woodworking websites and we all have the same type issues, but I personally believe pricing isn't one of them. If you price your items accordingly PROFIT will follow). If your profit area is lower...you will more than likely (depending on quality of product) will make the sale and have repeat customers.


Frankly, I disagree with this.  There is a wide variety in the pricing of pens.  Even when the pens are similar quality.  Once someone has established a reputation, they can command better prices.  And then they won't want their work shown next to similar pens at a lower price.  And many times the pictures won't show the difference in the product.  Even with good photos.



Joshua_30 said:


> Could you expand on your issue with placement?


On placement, who decides what pens are at the top of the pages.  Or do the users have their own page.  If so, then who's comes 1st.  This really isn't that big of a deal, at least to me.  But for instance, I wouldn't want all mine to be near the bottom of a page.  I also wouldn't want my page at the end.  If they rotated, that would help, but I can see that being a pain for the shoppers. They see a pen, and want to think about it for a day. The next day they come back, and it's not in the same location.



Joshua_30 said:


> Who would take the photos? If we couldn't get a volunteer from the forum I would seek out someone that would do it on a commission base. This is another topic on our boards and if someone needs "professional" type pictures that is a service someone else could benefit from...and it a known issue, but with a solution. We all can't take the perfect picture because of our lack of knowledge.


  You're right about that, but some people wouldn't want to the expense of better pictures, and then that gets back to placement & price.  If someone were selling higher priced pens with mediocre pics, I doubt they'd be happy next to a similar pen at half the price that looked better only because of the picture.  Or someone with great pics and a similar price would overshadow a comparable pen with a picture that's not as well done.  Of course, if each seller had their own page, this wouldn't be as much of an issue.  

But what about the pictures that are better than the actual product because of enhanced photos.  I'd think the end customer would be contacting you asking for a refund.  So what happens if the maker of the pen refused to give a refund.  Then everyone using the site has an unhappy customer.  But only 1 has the revenue.



Joshua_30 said:


> The shipping of pens could really be a talking/negotiating point. If the pen artist would like to Fed Ex, UPS or DHL a pen to their new customer would be their option...however it would be an easy task for me to receive the pen from my maker in bundles and then mail to the customer on their behalf as needed.


 If the artist takes care of shipping, and then doesn't ship the pen, then the same problem exists.  An unhappy customer that everyone shares.  

If you handle the shipping, then that forces everyone to send you their pens.  The problem for the artists is that he/she can't sell their pens locally without incurring a shipping charge back from you.



Joshua_30 said:


> Who keeps inventory? Another talking/negotiating task. I could keep a storage room full of inventory or the artist could make pens on demand. I guess some would have their preference.


 See above.  I think it would be a mistake to allow some sellers to maintain their inventory when others sent their inventory to you.  Which ever way it is done, would have to be consistent IMHO.



Joshua_30 said:


> Who would update the site? This would be the biggest full time job - but again I don't mind the busy work of updating as long as it's built in the beginning. I have a couple certifications and a degree focused on web design coupled with Lean Six Sigma experience.
> 
> I personally love the idea and am really excited, but I need support and identification of potential issues. I'm counting on you guys for that advice!
> 
> Thank you for your vote and response!


Don't get me wrong.  None of the problems I see can't be over come.  It would require the sellers to make some concessions for how the business model would work.  Personally, I would rather sell pens through a site I managed myself.  But that's me.


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## Waluy

Sounds very much like an ETSY scenario to me, with everyone setting their own prices and choices on inventory. Again I think your largest draw back would be Person A makes a slimline and asks $35 because that is what they feel its worth, Person B makes an identical slimline (well as identical as possible) and asks $25 because they know they can "mass" produce them. Which in turn upsets Person A because their work, by virtue of being on the same board/website, could now be seen as overpriced by many potential customers.


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## Scruffy

*I think there are a lot of us..*

that like the idea of doing it our way.  Period.

Before I retired, I left university and corporate environments primarily because of politics.  I spent the last 20 years of my "productive" career as a consultant. 

In those 20 years, I was much more content not having to follow "the way" of being a part of "team".  Or following the "rules".  

If pen turning became some sort of collective, I probably would stick furniture.

Some of the ones I've chatted with here are much the same.

Maybe there are some that need the acceptance.  I am not one.


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## Joshua_30

BSea said:


> Joshua_30 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wow! I was waiting for someone to ask these questions. I WOULD TAKE THAT RESPONSIBILITY! I absolutely love the challenge of dealing with difficult problems (especially websites and project management) It's what I do on a daily basis.
> 
> I would like to take a moment and address each of your concerns:
> 
> I've read though A LOT of problems on several woodworking websites and we all have the same type issues, but I personally believe pricing isn't one of them. If you price your items accordingly PROFIT will follow). If your profit area is lower...you will more than likely (depending on quality of product) will make the sale and have repeat customers.
> 
> 
> 
> Frankly, I disagree with this.  There is a wide variety in the pricing of pens.  Even when the pens are similar quality.  Once someone has established a reputation, they can command better prices.  And then they won't want their work shown next to similar pens at a lower price.  And many times the pictures won't show the difference in the product.  Even with good photos.
> 
> Would it be beneficial then to have an "Featured Artist" section to differentiate those with an established reputation and those who are a part of general population? I can agree some artists are better at crafting (for sake of pen type, let's say slimline), but the material type and plating drive up prices as well as quality.
> 
> 
> 
> Joshua_30 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Could you expand on your issue with placement?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> On placement, who decides what pens are at the top of the pages.  Or do the users have their own page.  If so, then who's comes 1st.  This really isn't that big of a deal, at least to me.  But for instance, I wouldn't want all mine to be near the bottom of a page.  I also wouldn't want my page at the end.  If they rotated, that would help, but I can see that being a pain for the shoppers. They see a pen, and want to think about it for a day. The next day they come back, and it's not in the same location.
> 
> An Artist section might correct this small issue as well...good point though. Hmmm...I would have to think about this from a customer perspective, but if I liked a pen enough to think on it for a night I would send the URL link to myself :biggrin: so I can view it later or from my phone. At least I would know the exact site it came from
> The pen turner page placement I could see as an issue...I have an idea, but would need to think this one through. Nice catch! That is why I need your intelligence.
> 
> 
> 
> Joshua_30 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Who would take the photos? If we couldn't get a volunteer from the forum I would seek out someone that would do it on a commission base. This is another topic on our boards and if someone needs "professional" type pictures that is a service someone else could benefit from...and it a known issue, but with a solution. We all can't take the perfect picture because of our lack of knowledge.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You're right about that, but some people wouldn't want to the expense of better pictures, and then that gets back to placement & price.  If someone were selling higher priced pens with mediocre pics, I doubt they'd be happy next to a similar pen at half the price that looked better only because of the picture.  Or someone with great pics and a similar price would overshadow a comparable pen with a picture that's not as well done.  Of course, if each seller had their own page, this wouldn't be as much of an issue.
> 
> Artist section is looking better :biggrin:
> 
> But what about the pictures that are better than the actual product because of enhanced photos.  I'd think the end customer would be contacting you asking for a refund.  So what happens if the maker of the pen refused to give a refund.  Then everyone using the site has an unhappy customer.  But only 1 has the revenue.
> 
> I have not thought about this one yet...photo enhancing is getting better by the minute.
> 
> 
> 
> Joshua_30 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The shipping of pens could really be a talking/negotiating point. If the pen artist would like to Fed Ex, UPS or DHL a pen to their new customer would be their option...however it would be an easy task for me to receive the pen from my maker in bundles and then mail to the customer on their behalf as needed.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If the artist takes care of shipping, and then doesn't ship the pen, then the same problem exists.  An unhappy customer that everyone shares.
> 
> If you handle the shipping, then that forces everyone to send you their pens.  The problem for the artists is that he/she can't sell their pens locally without incurring a shipping charge back from you.
> 
> Artist shipping is always the best, but I definitely don't want to make it the only option. In my write-up of shipping I debated on holding onto the funds until shipping notification was received - I'm not sure about implementing this, but have seen success in numerous other stores. Of course, if the item is customized for the customer this may present a problem.
> 
> 
> 
> Joshua_30 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Who keeps inventory? Another talking/negotiating task. I could keep a storage room full of inventory or the artist could make pens on demand. I guess some would have their preference.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> See above.  I think it would be a mistake to allow some sellers to maintain their inventory when others sent their inventory to you.  Which ever way it is done, would have to be consistent IMHO.
> 
> Consistency keeps things simple. I want to give both the customer and pen turner options vice the standard templates most go by.
> 
> 
> 
> Joshua_30 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Who would update the site? This would be the biggest full time job - but again I don't mind the busy work of updating as long as it's built in the beginning. I have a couple certifications and a degree focused on web design coupled with Lean Six Sigma experience.
> 
> I personally love the idea and am really excited, but I need support and identification of potential issues. I'm counting on you guys for that advice!
> 
> Thank you for your vote and response!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Don't get me wrong.  None of the problems I see can't be over come.  It would require the sellers to make some concessions for how the business model would work.  Personally, I would rather sell pens through a site I managed myself.  But that's me.
Click to expand...


My objective in this poll would primarily target those who have a website, but might not have the best luck formatting or driving traffic to their specific site due to SEO restrictions, social media or other pen turners that can use meta-data well. Even those without a website who are looking to better themselves would be a great opportunity. 

If I was just starting out making pens again I would be absolutely terrified knowing how much people throw away on worthwhile hosting sites, shopping carts, SEO support and application support...not even to mention marketing.


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## Joshua_30

Waluy said:


> Sounds very much like an ETSY scenario to me, with everyone setting their own prices and choices on inventory. Again I think your largest draw back would be Person A makes a slimline and asks $35 because that is what they feel its worth, Person B makes an identical slimline (well as identical as possible) and asks $25 because they know they can "mass" produce them. Which in turn upsets Person A because their work, by virtue of being on the same board/website, could now be seen as overpriced by many potential customers.



In your statement are you viewing this from a pen turner perspective or a customer? 

Feelings can get in the way for a lot of people, but my actions depend on the need of my customer base. If person A (above) is a reputable artist and smart in the sense of marketing they might consider lowering their price to stay competitive. If not, they might consider why they are making pens at such as high quality?


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## Joshua_30

Scruffy said:


> that like the idea of doing it our way.  Period.
> 
> Before I retired, I left university and corporate environments primarily because of politics.  I spent the last 20 years of my "productive" career as a consultant.
> 
> In those 20 years, I was much more content not having to follow "the way" of being a part of "team".  Or following the "rules".
> 
> If pen turning became some sort of collective, I probably would stick furniture.
> 
> Some of the ones I've chatted with here are much the same.
> 
> Maybe there are some that need the acceptance.  I am not one.



Is this about acceptance or leaving a footprint? I believe anyone that has joined this forum has many things in common "acceptance" isn't an issue. We create things because we explore the unknown and excel.


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## Karl_99

Interesting concept, but I think I would not likely participate.  I have an online store and for every pen that I have sold through the store, I have sold 4 more through the contact form on the store!  These are important connections/sales that I would miss if I was in a "mall".

For me, making and selling pens is about branding and providing a good customer experience with a custom/ unique pen.  This concept can get lost in a "mall".


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## NittanyLion

The whole concept in theory sounds good.......but, so do the politicians who try to sell a "collective"(universal health care).  When you realize the cost(or in this case minimal profit), it's not sucessful.  The free market will always win over a "collective"(a.k.a. Communism or marxism).  Please dont take this as a smashdown on your idea....new ideas drive the free market.  I just think this idea resembles big government with one entity controlling everything including pricepoint and profit.


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## BSea

Joshua_30 said:


> My objective in this poll would primarily target those who have a website, but might not have the best luck formatting or driving traffic to their specific site due to SEO restrictions, social media or other pen turners that can use meta-data well. Even those without a website who are looking to better themselves would be a great opportunity.
> 
> If I was just starting out making pens again I would be absolutely terrified knowing how much people throw away on worthwhile hosting sites, shopping carts, SEO support and application support...not even to mention marketing.


You might be better off in doing a few basic designs & offering your web services to someone wanting their own site.  Let them choose a style, make a few changes so that it's personalized, then let them add their own content & descriptions.  

Right now the site I use is through weebly.  It has some issues, but it works, and the user has a lot of control.  If you could offer something similar with a few things that weebly doesn't provide, I think many here would probably take advantage.  I know I'd look at it.


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## plano_harry

I voted unlikely - not because I don't like the concept, but in my  limited thinking there are too many issues to overcome.  If it were  successful, I would use it.

The top artists would suffer because lesser work looks similar at a lower cost -- average artists could raise their prices.  With the exception of the highly custom work, many of these pens look similar and often I have difficulty telling from a picture in SOYP whether a pen is perfectly turned, or needs improvement.

Good luck finding the right formula.  It won't be easy.


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## OKLAHOMAN

Totally disagree, IMHO if a person lowers his price just to stay competitive in a venue then he needs to find a better venue for his product, so what will happen is the person (Artist) who has the lowest prices will drag down all the other artist to his level. Just not good marketing. Lets face it a photo will not show quality and the customer will seek the lowest price. I wish you luck but so far you only have two votes for nine on the fence and 32 against, I think that tells you something. But as my wife has said to me "You could be wrong Roy", so if you really want to test this go ahead as you seem determined. 



*[/quote]Feelings can get in the way for a lot of people, but my actions depend on the need of my customer base. If person A (above) is a reputable artist and smart in the sense of marketing they might consider lowering their price to stay competitive. If not, they might consider why they are making pens at such as high quality?*[/quote]


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## Joshua_30

Thank you all for your comments, they are well received!  I would also like to thank several individuals that took the time to send me a private message on the forum with your interests and recommendations as well. I will forward on a response to all who would like to know more. 

"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty." - Winston Churchill


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## Ligget

Forgive me if this has already been covered by your answers, if I want to sell a pen I would not like to show the potential buyer other penmakers items for sale.


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## Joshua_30

Ligget said:


> Forgive me if this has already been covered by your answers, if I want to sell a pen I would not like to show the potential buyer other penmakers items for sale.



May I ask the question why? 

When I sell my pens I encourage my customers to shop around to get a fill for what they want and it entices them to ask more questions or engage in healthy conversation.

I'm also confident in my ability to provide quality pens (scratch free, great shine...etc). This has served me well from a customer service standpoint and a website could share these same characteristics. 

Thanks for your question.


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## Ligget

Why?  I suppose it is just the way I always thought about sales of anykind not just pens, but I am always willing to learn new things! :biggrin:


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## OKLAHOMAN

While I agree with you when I'm face to face with a customer we have the opportunity to as you say engage in healthy conversation, I ask how do you plan to do this on a mall type web site. So as been said before with good photos and low pricing the lowest priced pens will sell and this will only drive prices down.




Joshua_30 said:


> Ligget said:
> 
> 
> 
> Forgive me if this has already been covered by your answers, if I want to sell a pen I would not like to show the potential buyer other penmakers items for sale.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> May I ask the question why?
> 
> When I sell my pens I encourage my customers to shop around to get a fill for what they want and it entices them to ask more questions or engage in healthy conversation.
> 
> I'm also confident in my ability to provide quality pens (scratch free, great shine...etc). This has served me well from a customer service standpoint and a website could share these same characteristics.
> 
> Thanks for your question.
Click to expand...


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## Ligget

This is not meant as an attack but I have been on this forum for a long time and I know others will be thinking this, so I`ll ask you!

1- You are new to this forum, do you want to set this up to attract our customers to look at your pens?

2- Can you provide us with a link etc to look at your pens as I don`t think you posted a pen on this forum yet?


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## JohnGreco

Joshua_30 said:


> Waluy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds very much like an ETSY scenario to me, with everyone setting their own prices and choices on inventory. Again I think your largest draw back would be Person A makes a slimline and asks $35 because that is what they feel its worth, Person B makes an identical slimline (well as identical as possible) and asks $25 because they know they can "mass" produce them. Which in turn upsets Person A because their work, by virtue of being on the same board/website, could now be seen as overpriced by many potential customers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In your statement are you viewing this from a pen turner perspective or a customer?
> 
> Feelings can get in the way for a lot of people, but my actions depend on the need of my customer base. *If person A (above) is a reputable artist and smart in the sense of marketing they might consider lowering their price to stay competitive.* If not, they might consider why they are making pens at such as high quality?
Click to expand...


The thing of it is, in many cases I see people on Etsy selling pens for less than I wholesale mine, let alone my retail price. We're not talking about lowering the price $5 or $10, it's significant amounts of money. I charge a wholesale rate that allows me to be profitable as a business and roughly double that for my retail price. I'm not interested in lowering my retail price to be competitive with the hobbyist who is selling below my wholesale price, and I doubt anybody who is serious about selling would do so. 

This isn't said to offend hobby pen makers. I'm not looking to revive the hobbyist vs. business pricing debate, just my thoughts on the matter. If you decide to move forward, I wish you all the best.


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## Joshua_30

Ligget said:


> This is not meant as an attack but I have been on this forum for a long time and I know others will be thinking this, so I`ll ask you!
> 
> 1- You are new to this forum, do you want to set this up to attract our customers to look at your pens?
> 
> 2- Can you provide us with a link etc to look at your pens as I don`t think you posted a pen on this forum yet?



Thanks for your question, but make no mistake in my objective as stated in the initial conversation:

"My goal is to address several problem that I see pen turners facing in today economy. Chief among the complaints are (in my opinion)

1.) Relying solely on EBAY/ETSY to sell their items. 
2.) Not enough time to build an effective e-commerce website.
3.) Too much money spent on website builders and shopping carts
4.) No marketing plan (If you build it...they will come) mentality 
5.) Social media shortfalls. 
6.) Competing "noise" on the internet."

To address each of your questions:

1.) I'm not really new...I just speak when I have something informative to say :biggrin:. This is in no way an effort to "steal" customers...which I really didn't have an intentions to place my pens on this potential website. I simply saw a defect (in my opinion) and wanted an informative community to speak about the pros and cons of having one. 

2.) I have posted (I think) 1 pen so far - my Jack Daniels on Saturn antique. My personal website is under construction as I'm testing out different apps and SEO support. When I make it available, I will add to my signature line. I've been through several...GoDaddy, Joomla, Weebly, 1and1...I'm currently finding WIX to be a good options for support, but with design flaws. 

I do have a Facebook page -"https://www.facebook.com/TiptonTurnings" If you would like to see some of my work.


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## beck3906

You seem to have very strong opinions about what can be done and the service to be provided.

Go ahead and setup your site.  Invite penmakers to participate.  Have a "contract" about the services to be provided.

Most folks will want to see what it costs to participate versus the received benefits.  Those considering your services will want to see the website and how it will run.

Too much theory now.  You'll need to see if it's worth your investment once you get it in place.

As for me, I won't participate for reasons already mentioned.


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## tim self

Joshua_30 said:


> May I ask the question why?



If you go to a car dealer, does he recommend you go across the street and look at the competition?

As to maker A and B.  I will NOT lower my higher quality to meet the lower quality to price my pens at their level.

Now, at a show I do look at all the competition and if it is not up to my standards, I do tell the customer to look at them.  I also tell them they will not find the quality or selection I have.  Have sold a number of pens with that strategy.  May have lost a few but if I did, they weren't going to buy mine anyway.


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## alphageek

Joshua_30 said:


> To address each of your questions:
> 
> 1.) I'm not really new...I just speak when I have something informative to say :biggrin:. This is in no way an effort to "steal" customers...which I really didn't have an intentions to place my pens on this potential website. I simply saw a defect (in my opinion) and wanted an informative community to speak about the pros and cons of having one.
> 
> 2.) I have posted (I think) 1 pen so far - my Jack Daniels on Saturn antique. My personal website is under construction as I'm testing out different apps and SEO support. When I make it available, I will add to my signature line. I've been through several...GoDaddy, Joomla, Weebly, 1and1...I'm currently finding WIX to be a good options for support, but with design flaws.
> 
> I do have a Facebook page -"https://www.facebook.com/TiptonTurnings" If you would like to see some of my work.



I find this interesting.  
A) You are trying to promote this idea to pen turners, but you have no intention of putting your own pens on this??
B) You have no proof of having a solution to your complaints 1-6 and fall in to several of the issues still yourself. I could go into details, but I don't want this to look like an attack.

I know this idea has been seen before, but I have a hard time believing that a "pen mall" idea can fly... And I'm convinced it will have an EXTREMELY hard time getting past the early adapters.  Good luck to you if you get it to work, but I think you have a TON of challenges to overcome.


----------



## Joshua_30

beck3906 said:


> You seem to have very strong opinions about what can be done and the service to be provided.
> 
> Go ahead and setup your site.  Invite penmakers to participate.  Have a "contract" about the services to be provided.
> 
> Most folks will want to see what it costs to participate versus the received benefits.  Those considering your services will want to see the website and how it will run.
> 
> Too much theory now.  You'll need to see if it's worth your investment once you get it in place.
> 
> As for me, I won't participate for reasons already mentioned.



Why would someone just start to calculate ROI (Return on Investment) after the website is in place? I'm simply in the research phase and gathering opinions...not ready to pull the trigger :biggrin:

If I build anything it will first be my website (which I need to do), but if others have difficulty with their website I could alter my plans and assist where needed...thus the conception of one-source idea.


----------



## Joshua_30

alphageek said:


> Joshua_30 said:
> 
> 
> 
> To address each of your questions:
> 
> 1.) I'm not really new...I just speak when I have something informative to say :biggrin:. This is in no way an effort to "steal" customers...which I really didn't have an intentions to place my pens on this potential website. I simply saw a defect (in my opinion) and wanted an informative community to speak about the pros and cons of having one.
> 
> 2.) I have posted (I think) 1 pen so far - my Jack Daniels on Saturn antique. My personal website is under construction as I'm testing out different apps and SEO support. When I make it available, I will add to my signature line. I've been through several...GoDaddy, Joomla, Weebly, 1and1...I'm currently finding WIX to be a good options for support, but with design flaws.
> 
> I do have a Facebook page -"https://www.facebook.com/TiptonTurnings" If you would like to see some of my work.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I find this interesting.
> A) You are trying to promote this idea to pen turners, but you have no intention of putting your own pens on this??
> B) You have no proof of having a solution to your complaints 1-6 and fall in to several of the issues still yourself. I could go into details, but I don't want this to look like an attack.
> 
> I know this idea has been seen before, but I have a hard time believing that a "pen mall" idea can fly... And I'm convinced it will have an EXTREMELY hard time getting past the early adapters.  Good luck to you if you get it to work, but I think you have a TON of challenges to overcome.
Click to expand...


Assistant Moderator :biggrin:

1.) Nope :frown:. I have what is working for me in place already. Again, if the idea came to fruition then I would be consumed with making updates for those pen turners I support. 
2.) Don't worry about launching an attack - I think with all the negativity in this forum it might be beneficial to have a cup of optimism...share what has worked and what did not work in the past. I need to know what has not worked in the past to pave the way forward...that whole innovative thinking thingy.

Keep in mind, in brainstorming sessions do you expect a final solution to present itself? I see a hand full of good recommendations with hundreds of years of experience just in the last three pages. To me, they are not unanswered complaints...some are simply continued controversial topics from other threads. 

Issues for myself?...now you have my curiosity. I thought we were just talking about a poll for an idea?


----------



## Smitty37

SerenityWoodWorks said:


> In a perfect world that would be great but the first problem I would see is pricing, one person will want to sell a pen for $35 and it will be the same kit that another wants to sell it for $135. It would be Etsy all over again to me.


 Yet several competing vendors all sell blanks, etc through exotic blanks. Additionally many vendors sell the same items at different prices through Amazon.com  so it seems to me that the basic idea is proven to work.


----------



## jttheclockman

I just noticed this thread and I will put my 2 cents in. In no way will I ever want to join a web site that sells the same kind of pens together. It has been mentioned about price wars. I would never want to lower my prices to be in competition with others of lesser quality. You are defeating the purpose of this hobby. You always want to improve not step backwards. 

There is a pen store in a mall in my area and they sell 10000's of pens. You want to know the difference??  It is because they sell brand names. I know of no one on this site who is a brand name. I mention this because that is how the store can sell pens next to each other. People at times buy the brand and not the look. Most big name pen companies always try to distinguish themselves from each other and or have their brand on the pens they sell. Again no one here that I know of has a brand of pen unique to them. Huge difference when putting pens together to sell.

Competition is one thing but when you are competing against the same kit pen what is the sense. That is why I am a huge proponent of hand made blanks that you design and place on the kits. Lets face it we all can not make our own kitless pens and stay in the market. ( If you do I applaud you but you are in the minority) So to distiguish yourself from others you need to distance yourself from the mundane and that is with the dress you put on the jewlery. Now you put these pens in the same site the customer will not see the difference but just look at price and there is no way in H--- I am lowering my constructed blank for some ordinary everyday run of the mill acrylic or piece of wood blank. Huge obstacle.

You run into many stories of people doing craft shows and I have seen it and will continue to see it first hand. People competing for the customer dollar. At least at a show you have the opportunity to go one on one with the potential customer. In your setup a photo is what will make the sale???  Good luck with that.

I read here all the time people complaing about etsy and ebay and the prices people charge. You want to set up basically the same type scenerio. 

To make it a worthwhile business you have to do it on your own and do it your way with your personal touch. You do not want someone elses work to promote yours. 

Like I said these are some of my thoughts and some have already been mentioned. But you can count on me as never ever ever joining something like this. 

I think you maybe better off selling your web designs or whatever you do to help others here. That maybe where your time maybe better spent. Good luck.


----------



## Smitty37

tim self said:


> Joshua_30 said:
> 
> 
> 
> May I ask the question why?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *If you go to a car dealer, does he recommend you go across the street and look at the competition?*
> 
> .
Click to expand...

 Of course not...he takes you outside and shows them to you. I bought my last vehicle from a dealer who carries 4 competing brands.  Chevrolet/GMC, Dodge/Chrysler/Jeep, Mercedes-Benz and BMW.  Auto dealers ain't a good example for what you're trying to say.:biggrin:


----------



## tim self

Smitty37 said:


> tim self said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Joshua_30 said:
> 
> 
> 
> May I ask the question why?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *If you go to a car dealer, does he recommend you go across the street and look at the competition?*
> 
> .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Of course not...he takes you outside and shows them to you. I bought my last vehicle from a dealer who carries 4 competing brands.  Chevrolet/GMC, Dodge/Chrysler/Jeep, Mercedes-Benz and BMW.  Auto dealers ain't a good example for what you're trying to say.:biggrin:
Click to expand...


Not all dealers sell as yours do and you cannot compare a MB or BMW to a Mopar brand or GM.  AND, it didn't matter what brand  you bought, he was still taking YOUR money.  Not a good example Smitty.  This gentleman is not SELLING our product, only providing a means of putting it on the street. Just like you cannot compare a slimline to a Jr. Gent FP.

But to simplify it for you here go's.  If I'm at a show with a customer in front of me, am I going to say "hey, lets go down through the venue and see who's pen you like better?"


----------



## Joshua_30

A general question to all. If we are all selling our pens at the same show. Who's job is it to define QUALITY? 

A well recognized pen turner?...or the customer?


----------



## beck3906

Joshua_30 said:


> A general question to all. If we are all selling our pens at the same show. Who's job is it to define QUALITY?
> 
> A well recognized pen turner?...or the customer?



I think you know the answer to that question.  

My question to myself is....

Why am I following this thread?

I guess to see what other questions like this develop.


----------



## tim self

Joshua_30 said:


> A general question to all. If we are all selling our pens at the same show. Who's job is it to define QUALITY?
> 
> A well recognized pen turner?...or the customer?



If there is two pen turners at one show and they both have say one of Curtis' cactus blanks on a rhodium Jr. Gent the playing field should be equal assuming they both produce great work.  It is then the job of the seller to establish himself with the buyer.  Some will argue this is incorrect or misleading but as has been said here more than once and proven over again that "price is perception of quality."  

I have been in shows where the competition had amazing segmented pens, it was then my job to sell mine without comparing his product.


----------



## BSea

The more I think about this, there might be a market for the casual turner that just wants to sell a few pens, or for those beginning to sell their pens.  They can get their feet wet in a "Mall" type setting.  For those who are more established, they would want more control.  

This idea isn't for everyone, but there are hundreds of turners on this site.  I'm sure that some would be willing to give it a try.


----------



## OKLAHOMAN

The poor horse, he's dead stop beating him. The ones that are for this and the ones that are not. I think we all know where this stands lets see if Josh thinks he can pull this off and just wish him success.


----------



## Smitty37

tim self said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tim self said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Joshua_30 said:
> 
> 
> 
> May I ask the question why?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *If you go to a car dealer, does he recommend you go across the street and look at the competition?*
> 
> .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Of course not...he takes you outside and shows them to you. I bought my last vehicle from a dealer who carries 4 competing brands.  Chevrolet/GMC, Dodge/Chrysler/Jeep, Mercedes-Benz and BMW.  Auto dealers ain't a good example for what you're trying to say.:biggrin:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *Not all dealers sell as yours do and you cannot compare a MB or BMW to a Mopar brand or GM.*
Click to expand...

True enough-Reedman Motors in Langhorne PA sell at least a dozen brands. And we have a dealer here in our area who sells both Toyota and Honda.

I know people here believe in comparing kits when they buy and often choose kits costing double what competitors sell for. Many reasons are cited and price is just one of them and some even buy from a particular vendor regardless of price. Yet the same people will shudder at the very thought of side-by-side comparisons of the pens they produce fearing someone will underprice them. I'm not able to quite understand that.


----------



## Joshua_30

jttheclockman said:


> I just noticed this thread and I will put my 2 cents in. In no way will I ever want to join a web site that sells the same kind of pens together. It has been mentioned about price wars. I would never want to lower my prices to be in competition with others of lesser quality. You are defeating the purpose of this hobby. You always want to improve not step backwards.
> 
> There is a pen store in a mall in my area and they sell 10000's of pens. You want to know the difference??  It is because they sell brand names. I know of no one on this site who is a brand name. I mention this because that is how the store can sell pens next to each other. People at times buy the brand and not the look. Most big name pen companies always try to distinguish themselves from each other and or have their brand on the pens they sell. Again no one here that I know of has a brand of pen unique to them. Huge difference when putting pens together to sell.
> 
> Competition is one thing but when you are competing against the same kit pen what is the sense. That is why I am a huge proponent of hand made blanks that you design and place on the kits. Lets face it we all can not make our own kitless pens and stay in the market. ( If you do I applaud you but you are in the minority) So to distiguish yourself from others you need to distance yourself from the mundane and that is with the dress you put on the jewlery. Now you put these pens in the same site the customer will not see the difference but just look at price and there is no way in H--- I am lowering my constructed blank for some ordinary everyday run of the mill acrylic or piece of wood blank. Huge obstacle.
> 
> You run into many stories of people doing craft shows and I have seen it and will continue to see it first hand. People competing for the customer dollar. At least at a show you have the opportunity to go one on one with the potential customer. In your setup a photo is what will make the sale???  Good luck with that.
> 
> I read here all the time people complaing about etsy and ebay and the prices people charge. You want to set up basically the same type scenerio.
> 
> To make it a worthwhile business you have to do it on your own and do it your way with your personal touch. You do not want someone elses work to promote yours.
> 
> Like I said these are some of my thoughts and some have already been mentioned. But you can count on me as never ever ever joining something like this.
> 
> I think you maybe better off selling your web designs or whatever you do to help others here. That maybe where your time maybe better spent. Good luck.





OKLAHOMAN said:


> The poor horse, he's dead stop beating him. The ones that are for this and the ones that are not. I think we all know where this stands lets see if Josh thinks he can pull this off and just wish him success.



Roy,

Thanks for your words, and I might have just enough support to pull it off...still a lot of research and legwork - but I'm very confident this can become more than an idea. 

I also took a glance at the Classic Nib website and have a question. How is what I'm doing any different than the blanks that are displayed on this page? Your objective is to sell to pen turners (similar to ExoticBlanks) website - I think they refer to them as partners. 

My objective is to take the best of both worlds and create a middle ground. They (your customers) purchase a blank pre-made or physically cut their own then use further artistic skill to turn the material into perfection and assemble the kit. At this point all that is needed is the sale. 

If someone doesn't have a website like yours or doesn't have the time to attend shows/fairs or start-up funds for a website + SSL certificates + shopping carts + blogs and marketing....etc. 

Much like you have done bringing "blanks" artists together with known differences to sale their products to pen turners, I'm looking at this same model but bringing complete pen products to the final consumer.


----------



## BSea

Joshua_30 said:


> Roy,
> 
> Thanks for your words, and I might have just enough support to pull it off...still a lot of research and legwork - but I'm very confident this can become more than an idea.
> 
> I also took a glance at the Classic Nib website and have a question. How is what I'm doing any different than the blanks that are displayed on this page? Your objective is to sell to pen turners (similar to ExoticBlanks) website - I think they refer to them as partners.
> 
> Much like you have done bringing "blanks" artists together with known differences to sale their products to pen turners, I'm looking at this same model but bringing complete pen products to the final consumer.



I do see a difference between what Roy does with Classic Nib.  His partners have blanks that are unique to the other partner's blanks.  So there is a big difference between the products, and there really no competition inside of his site between the partners.  

But your situation could have 10 different pen makers offering a maple burl cigar pen from $10 to $100.  While I think that's taking it to the extreme, I think you can see the difference.  

But again, I don't see you idea as being a bad idea.  I do think it fills a nitch, and I hope it works for you.  If for nothing else than to keep people interested in this hobby.


----------



## Smitty37

BSea said:


> Joshua_30 said:
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I do see a difference between what Roy does with Classic Nib.  *His partners have blanks that are unique to the other partner's blanks.*
Click to expand...

And those blanks are often used on identical pen kits to make unique pens --- so I'm not sure why showing all those unique pens at many different prices would be much different.


----------



## jttheclockman

Smitty37 said:


> BSea said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Joshua_30 said:
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I do see a difference between what Roy does with Classic Nib. *His partners have blanks that are unique to the other partner's blanks.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And those blanks are often used on identical pen kits to make unique pens --- so I'm not sure why showing all those unique pens at many different prices would be much different.
Click to expand...

 

Boy sometimes I think the older you get Smitty the more difficult it is to reason with you. If you take the same pens and put them on a web site where the customer can see them what is he or she going to do??? Think man think. Of course they will purchase the lesser of the prices. The same thing applies when we buy kits or blanks from the various vendors. Now if a maker of such blanks sells his blanks to various vendors and charges them differently than shame on them. Now if the vendor is adding something to cover their expense then we have no recourse. The final decision then comes down to the person who makes the blanks and offers them for sale on the various sites. He will want the best return and that may translate into number of sales as opposed to price. 

Now your example of car dealers, again think man think. A person will go into a dealer with a brand in mind. He or she is buying the brand. Now if they have many brands then the salesman will try to sell the person an equivalent or a higher priced car. The thing with this web site there is no salesman to convince the customer to buy an alternative. Again they will see price and price alone. 

Once again I will state to combat this you need to bring your own style and have things that no one else has so that they can not be compared. Have those unique blanks. You will not get seasoned pen turners to do this. Yes you may get the newbies who just want to sell something. It is ebay and etsy all over again. Not worth the effort. But I just voice my opinion.

Hey give it a try. Boy it will take alot of work and you have this ambition now but what happens 6 months from now when you get a new craving. You have sales outlets in place already so why not just take advantage of them. I just do not see the need for something like this. Maybe I am looking through blinders because I have no problem going out there and peddling my own wares because I have been doing it for so long. Good luck.


----------



## BSea

Smitty37 said:


> BSea said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Joshua_30 said:
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I do see a difference between what Roy does with Classic Nib.  *His partners have blanks that are unique to the other partner's blanks.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And those blanks are often used on identical pen kits to make unique pens --- so I'm not sure why showing all those unique pens at many different prices would be much different.
Click to expand...

But Roy isn't selling pens on his site, he's selling pen making materials.  The markets are totally different.  If I go to his site as a pen turner, I don't have the option of buying feather blanks that look identical, but are different prices from different partners.  There is only 1 partner that features feather blanks, so there is no price discrepancy from different makers.  Also, I believe Roy chooses his partners.  In Joshua's senario, he wouldn't care if 10 people sold identical products with blanks from EB or CN at varied prices.  And he wouldn't/couldn't care what pens were offered, or at what price.

Again, I think his idea has some potential, I just don't see it being anywhere close to what classic nib or exotics does.


----------



## Waluy

Joshua_30 said:


> Waluy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds very much like an ETSY scenario to me, with everyone setting their own prices and choices on inventory. Again I think your largest draw back would be Person A makes a slimline and asks $35 because that is what they feel its worth, Person B makes an identical slimline (well as identical as possible) and asks $25 because they know they can "mass" produce them. Which in turn upsets Person A because their work, by virtue of being on the same board/website, could now be seen as overpriced by many potential customers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In your statement are you viewing this from a pen turner perspective or a customer?
> 
> Feelings can get in the way for a lot of people, but my actions depend on the need of my customer base. If person A (above) is a reputable artist and smart in the sense of marketing they might consider lowering their price to stay competitive. If not, they might consider why they are making pens at such as high quality?
Click to expand...


I am looking at it from both perspectives I guess. As a customer I can say if I saw two identical products both of the same quality I will almost always choose the cheaper (wouldn't everybody if everything else was equal?). From a turners perspective I know that some people can work in their shops 8-10 hours a day making a living off of pens and as such sell at a cheaper rate. I also know there are others who can do the same quality work but can afford to take less for a product if it means they can edge out competition (Think Wal-mart logic all you have to do is sell cheap enough for long enough to drive competitors out of business then you can make your price whatever you want). Also just because someone else can afford to spend $$$ on kits they get more for less cost and can lower their prices, my sales are not close enough together to make bulk orders (thus taking advantage of discounts) possible. 

Just for the sake of numbers lets look at this scenario. If I want to make a Bolt action pen my cost is $14.95 a kit (because I can't afford to buy multiples without finished pens being purchased), someone who sells more could order 50+ and only pay $11.95 a kit. It may not seem like much but when you start adding it up that is a $150 difference over just those 50 pens. The gap gets even larger if you start factoring in things like shipping. Assuming I buy mine one at a time that adds roughly another $7 to each pen kit. So once shipping is factored in over 50 pens (assuming free shipping for an order of 50+ kits) that becomes a 500 dollar difference. 

So for me to be able to continue I have to charge $10 more per pen just to net the same amount over 50 sales as the other person. That's not my fault nor the other persons fault.

Not saying its a bad idea it just wouldn't be a workable platform for someone like me (who has to buy one kit at a time) as soon as someone who can place bulk orders steps in unless they sell at my price.


----------



## JohnGreco

Waluy said:


> If I want to make a Bolt action pen my cost is $14.95 a kit (because I can't afford to buy multiples without finished pens being purchased), someone who sells more could order 50+ and only pay $11.95 a kit.



Actually, the pen cost is more than that after you factor in wear and tear on your cutting tools/time it will take to resharpen (or cost to replace the carbide), glue, sandpaper, buffing polish, electricity to run the machines, electricity to light your shop, heating/cooling, etc... Then there are listing fees or monthly website fees, Paypal fees, credit card fees, etc...

Sorry, I'm not trying to hi-jack! Just felt compelled to point out "what it costs to make a pen" isn't simply the cost of the kit + shipping. Please carry on


----------



## Waluy

JohnGreco said:


> Waluy said:
> 
> 
> 
> If I want to make a Bolt action pen my cost is $14.95 a kit (because I can't afford to buy multiples without finished pens being purchased), someone who sells more could order 50+ and only pay $11.95 a kit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, the pen cost is more than that after you factor in wear and tear on your cutting tools/time it will take to resharpen (or cost to replace the carbide), glue, sandpaper, buffing polish, electricity to run the machines, electricity to light your shop, heating/cooling, etc... Then there are listing fees or monthly website fees, Paypal fees, credit card fees, etc...
> 
> Sorry, I'm not trying to hi-jack! Just felt compelled to point out "what it costs to make a pen" isn't simply the cost of the kit + shipping. Please carry on
Click to expand...


Oh I know I was simply going with cost per kit assuming the other cost would be fairly universal across the board. I.e. if I got one order for a bolt action everyday for 50 days (I wish), and someone else (with more start up capital) got the same orders they could make pens for at least $10 cheaper a pen. This assumes my overhead cost is the same as theirs. Although even this is probably off because they would likely order blanks in bulk as well (but I left that out because I do manage to get quite a few really good deals on blanks).


----------



## Jim Burr

Ok...Joshua 30...you have posted one pen. You want to create something for people that make more than one pen. The Biblical reference is great, but so far, you are all talk and no nothing. Make 50, 100 pens then talk to us...in fact, prove that you sell 40 of those and we'll se where you stand...God bless!!


----------



## Scruffy

*Well ...Joshua 30*

How successful have you been selling pens?

How successful have you been in creating pens?

How successful have you been in turning pens?

I'm not sure why some one would would want to give you a pen to sell or pen order when you have done none of these things.  An d I don't see you putting any skin in the game.

If it sounds like such a good idea why don't you order 100 pens from every member at a 25% discount and market them.


----------



## Joshua_30

Jim Burr said:


> Ok...Joshua 30...you have posted one pen. You want to create something for people that make more than one pen. The Biblical reference is great, but so far, you are all talk and no nothing. Make 50, 100 pens then talk to us...in fact, prove that you sell 40 of those and we'll se where you stand...God bless!!



Hi Jim, 

If you have been keeping up with the thread you might have seen my previous post - https://www.facebook.com/TiptonTurnings for some of my work. I'm by no means an expert, in fact; I'm still considered wet behind the ears compared to hundreds of people in this forum....but I do favor the military side so I'm always looking for a way to enhance my pen turning abilities in that area. As for sales (LOL) are you wanting to audit my financial statements? LOL. You might find just enough to keep this hobby going :biggrin:

I believe we are on this forum because we have a hobby/small business of pen turning...I didn't realize I had to prove to you my skills before being allowed to speak


----------



## Joshua_30

Scruffy said:


> How successful have you been selling pens?
> 
> How successful have you been in creating pens?
> 
> How successful have you been in turning pens?
> 
> I'm not sure why some one would would want to give you a pen to sell or pen order when you have done none of these things.  An d I don't see you putting any skin in the game.
> 
> If it sounds like such a good idea why don't you order 100 pens from every member at a 25% discount and market them.



Scruffy, 

You're batting O for 2 for incoherent responses to the poll :biggrin:

Please reference my last post to Jim please. Thanks!


----------



## Smitty37

jttheclockman said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BSea said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Joshua_30 said:
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I do see a difference between what Roy does with Classic Nib. *His partners have blanks that are unique to the other partner's blanks.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And those blanks are often used on identical pen kits to make unique pens --- so I'm not sure why showing all those unique pens at many different prices would be much different.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> *Boy sometimes I think the older you get Smitty the more difficult it is to reason with you*.
Click to expand...

 John , if I didn't buy so much stuff on line I might agree with you.  But, I buy damn near everything other than groceries on line and I know I do not always buy (even identical items) at the lowest price.  I often pay a couple of dollars more for one reason or another.


----------

