# El Grande tap and die - closed.



## jjudge

*Tap and Die for El Grande cap/body*

*NOTE* note the nib-holder tap isn't perfect. Read my post on page 4

*People / status list *
http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=p5ipezQnAB6fbvXWDTRt1GA&output=html

*Quote* 
The raw prices for the tap and die (and tap) are:
... @24+ people
   $112.30 (cap tap)
   $59.60 (body die)
   $7.63 (nib tap) &lt;- see note on page 4

I've broken the "e-taps to me" shipping & handling across the orders, and assume USPS priority flat-rate shipping to you. I've also calculated the paypal fees, if you choose to pay via paypal.

If I'm way over, I'll spread out refunds
If I'm way under, I'll ask for a few more $$
If its a few $$ close enough, then I'll eat the difference.

Complete final pricing (all costs added, this is your total) 

Just the tap and die?:
   US? $183.95 (via paypal= $193.26)
   Canada/Mexico? $188.35 (via paypal= $197.88)
   Other? $190.35 (via paypal= $199.98)

want the extra (nib-holder) tap, too?:
   US? $191.58 (via paypal= $201.27)
   Canada/Mexico? $195.98 (via paypal= $205.88)
   Other? $197.98 (via paypal= $207.98)


*Details:*

_- Tap to thread the cap_
M12.0x0.8Px2.4L triple start taps as described above:
3-5 pc   $193.00 each 
6-11 pc      $147.00 each
12-23 pc    $128.00 each
24-49 pc    $112.30 each
50 ++   TBD

_- Die to thread the body_
M12.0x0.8Px2.4L triple start dies as described above:
  3-5 pc   $102.00 each  
  6-11 pc $ 70.50 each 
12-23 pc  $ 65.00 each
24-49 pc  $ 59.60 each  
50 ++  TBD  


_- Optional tap for inside the body_
For tapping the inside of the body to hold the nib, you may want to also pick up a tap. I'll get a quote from e-taps (sorry, I forgot to ask). Bruce pointed me to this example:
http://tinyurl.com/2o7wgm
   10mm x 1.0 mm plug tap.
   e-taps can do *$7.63*
*note this isn't perfect fit, but close enough to work*

*Shipping*

Priority mail, flat rate envelopes.
- Available anywhere in the U.S. for $4.60
- One rate to Canada and Mexico for $9.00
 One rate to all other countries for $11.00

I put tap + die (+ other top, maybe) into some bubble wrap, into that  envelope and pray its less than 4 lbs 

   -- joe


----------



## alamocdc

I'm in for the set plus the optional tap, Joe. My metric T&D set doesn't include that one. Oh well, it's cheap.

Oh, and THANKS!


----------



## rlharding

Good prices but I don't do the El Grand, Cambridge or Churchill.


----------



## scubaman

I'm in for a set.  <s>The M10x1 is a standard size and available anywhere.  I am not interested in that one.  (In fact it is part of most mtric sets.)</s>  That info was incorrect...  std metric sets have the M10x1.25 and M10x1.5 but (generally?) not the M10x1. <s> I would like to get the M10x1 also [8D]</s>  I do not need the M10x1


----------



## DaveM

I am in.  It looks like I can use this on other kits too.  It should fit as long as I don't plan on using centerbands.  As long as the diameter is compatible with the kit, I will be fine.  I was even thinking that it would work with a Baron or JR, as most of the pens I see with threaded bodies don't neck down as much at the threads as ours do with the metal couplers.  This might be a better size range for this tap.  As long as the Centerband coupler is not going to be used, there is no need to match threads from the kit parts.  In fact, with just a nib and feed, a whole pen could be built up.  (Need to fashion a section and clip)  This is going to be wide open fun!

Thanks for doing this!
Dave


----------



## Ligget

Good prices Joe, I`ll take one tap & die set and one nib holder tap (if poss)![]


----------



## Buzz

Put me down for all three, ie. tap & die and tap for nib holder.

Thank you.


----------



## lane223

I'm in!

1 plug style tap and die, plus shipping to Spain..... 

This is going to be awesome. Now all we need is the recommended diameter and drill sizes.


----------



## alamocdc

> _Originally posted by scubaman_
> 
> I'm in for a set.  The M10x1 is a standard size and available anywhere.  I am not interested in that one.  (In fact it is part of most mtric sets.)



Rich, I thought so too, and was sure I wouldn't need it until I checked my set last night.  Apparently I bought one of the few metric sets that only includes the 10mm x 1.25mm and 10mm x 1.5mm... and it's a new set at that.[V]


----------



## scubaman

> _Originally posted by alamocdc_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Originally posted by scubaman_
> 
> I'm in for a set.  The M10x1 is a standard size and available anywhere.  I am not interested in that one.  (In fact it is part of most mtric sets.)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rich, I thought so too, and was sure I wouldn't need it until I checked my set last night.  Apparently I bought one of the few metric sets that only includes the 10mm x 1.25mm and 10mm x 1.5mm... and it's a new set at that.[V]
Click to expand...

By golly you're right!  It's not part of the set!  The metric sets are certain ISO sizes, sets are std like we have NC and NF as the most common sizes.  Unlike the multi-lead taps, the M10x1 is commonly available, and can be had four $5-$6 from places like Enco - but this here offers a convenience.  Thanks for correcting this!


----------



## scubaman

Just for kicks...  what would the price be for 24 people?


----------



## Monty

What would the cost be, including shipping for just the M10X1 be? Went to the site posted and shipping for one was $7.27.


----------



## Chuck Key

I'm in for the set plus the optional tap.

Another price break at 24 plus would be nice .

Chuckie


----------



## Chuck Key

> _Originally posted by Monty_
> 
> What would the cost be, including shipping for just the M10X1 be? Went to the site posted and shipping for one was $7.27.



Check locally with Fastenal at 1118 N. Main St. Suite 2A, Pearland, TX 77581.

Phone: (281)412-2093


Chuckie


----------



## JC_UAH

Count me in for the Tap/Die/Nib Tap combo.

Jeff Carr
Huntsville, AL


----------



## Monty

> _Originally posted by Chuck Key_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Originally posted by Monty_
> 
> What would the cost be, including shipping for just the M10X1 be? Went to the site posted and shipping for one was $7.27.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Check locally with Fastenal at 1118 N. Main St. Suite 2A, Pearland, TX 77581.
> 
> Phone: (281)412-2093
> 
> 
> Chuckie
Click to expand...

Thanks Chuck. Not in a rush for it so if I can't find it cheaper, that's a great resource.


----------



## PenWorks

I guess I will tag along on this, I would take a set and a 10 x 1


----------



## DCBluesman

Another alternative for the M10 x 1, courtesy of George (TexatDurango).  This is on sale for $30 instead of $40 (US).

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=35407

Aside from all the obvious SAE and metric tap and dies, the above set not only has a pretty decent (for the price) *tap and die handle*, but also has the *10 x 1 metric tap *used for the El Grande nib threads as well as the *1/8" NPT pipe tap which matches up pretty well with the small Craft supply threaded nib holders *(Jr Gent/Statesman sizes). 

If you don't already have T&D handles, this set is seomthing to consider.


----------



## Tanner

I'm in for the Tap/Die/Nib Tap combo.


----------



## Stevej72

Put me down for a tap and die.


----------



## jtate

Me too.  I'm in for the Tap/Die/Nib Tap combo.

If we keep on accumulating people who want this, will the price fall based on more purchasers?

Julia


----------



## bosipipes

I'm in for the Tap/Die/Nib Tap combo.


----------



## WriteRev

In in for a Tap/Die/Nib tap set.

Thanks,
Steve


----------



## Ligget

Lou can you make sure that Steve (Skiprat) knows about this group buy as he is over there with you guys.


----------



## Jim in Oakville

I am interested as well


----------



## scotian12

Hi Joe...Please include me in for all three-tap and die and tap for the nib holder. thanks for coordinating this for us.    Darrell


----------



## rlharding

I wasn't thinking - again - until I saw Dave's post and realise I don't need to make El Grande's!

Put me down for a set plus the 10x1 please.


----------



## alamocdc

Hey, Joe, that's 18 already. Any word yet on another price break over 24? I'm all for saving a buck.


----------



## Dan_F

Add me to list for a tap and die set, and the nib tap.

Dan


----------



## BruceK

I'll join the frenzy, I'm in for a Tap/Die/Nib set.


----------



## sptfr43

put me down for the tap and die. I already have the harbor freight set with the 10 x 1. Thanks


----------



## jjudge

I'm missing the 23 count ...I get 20 (posted here + emailed me).
I'll have to go peek at the previous "inquiry" thread.

Maybe that 23 or 24 price break is something to ask for !

- joe


----------



## johncrane

Joe lam in for the lot tap/die'/nib combo.


----------



## igran7

Joe I am ready to buy the tap/die/nib combo as well...Where do I send the money


----------



## alamocdc

Joe, I now count 23 just in this thread. If you have more via PM, that should put us over the mark if they're offering another price break. I just LOVE saving money.


----------



## alamocdc

Joe, your list is short. You missed igran7, sptfr43, rlharding, DanF and Bruce K. That puts the count at 26 I think.


----------



## pipeyeti

Count me in. Iwant the the cap and body and nib taps. Larry


----------



## RichW

I'm in too. I'll take the tap/die/nib combo as well.  Just send instructions for payment.  Paypal preferred.

Thanks. Rich Wilkinson


----------



## jjudge

I updated names at the top, original posting here.
(please check your name)

Also, new pricing came in -- I'll update the prices.

I'll update the info tonight -- but:  

Lets aim to close this by this weekend.
I'll confirm our numbers and the order by Monday
It'll be 4-5 weeks til they get shipped


----------



## bosipipes

Thanks for doing this Joe.
Where do we send payment too?


----------



## gketell

count me in for all three pieces.
GK


----------



## rlharding

Hi Joe, I am in Canada though you updated listing doesn't show that.

Thanks for all the work & Bruce for the work you did initially


----------



## Nickfff

I would like to purchase the set of 3 as well. Please let me know when you want payment.

Thanks for coordinating,
Nick


----------



## Ligget

Joe I`ve just noticed you have me listed twice, I am mark(at)penmaker (uk)whick you have listed as via email, and ligget (scotland)in the normal list.

Dont want 2 sets arriving, cheers!


----------



## bjackman

Joe,
I'm in for the Tap/Die/Nib combo
Thanks


----------



## LEAP

Joe count me in for all three,
thanks


----------



## kgwaugh

Joe count me in for all three too, please.
Thanks,
Gene


----------



## ldb2000

Hi Joe
The LOML just said ok so count me in for one complete set (3 pcs) pm me with the total and your paypal address


----------



## Geo in Winnipeg

Hi Joe
Please put me down for the complete tap, die and nib combo.
Thanks


----------



## Dan_F

I'm in and counted, but how do I proceed? You can PM me.

Dan


----------



## jjudge

*Here is the email I'll send tonight*

*read note on nib-holder tap below*

Penturners.org tap & die set


Closing the group buy today. 

Before Monday/Tuesday, please email me:
   - Are you in?
   - for all 3 tap+die+tap ...or... just the tap+die?
   - how to pay? (paypal? check? etc.?)

Pick your amount *these #s include all costs*
---------------------------------
Just the tap and die:
   US?            $183.95 (via paypal= $193.26)
   Canada/Mexico? $188.35 (via paypal= $197.88)
   Other?         $190.35 (via paypal= $199.98)

want the extra (nib-holder) tap, too:
   US?            $191.58 (via paypal= $201.27)
   Canada/Mexico? $195.98 (via paypal= $205.88)
   Other?         $197.98 (via paypal= $207.98)

Contact
---------------------------------
If you have any worries, need to connect with me, etc:
   joe judge
   email: joe@intrusion.org
   cell: 339-927-7298

The thread is here:
http://www.penturners.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=34016


Details 
---------------------------------
Thanks to Bruce (brobbins629), this has been initially tooled by e-taps.com and tested by a few folks.
So, this works ... the company is legitimate ... etc. See the kit-less pen exmaple posted.

The group buy is for a tap & die set that were created to match the El Grande (Churchill) pen kit.
There is an optional tap for threading the inside of a pen body for the nib holder.

This means ... 
   - you can thread the inside of a cap
   - you can thread the outside of a pen body
   - (optionally) you can thread the inside of a pen body to hold the nib holder

The relevant parts of the e-taps.com quote are:

M12.0x0.8Px2.4L triple start tap & die pair (+ 10mmx1mm plug tap)
   ... 12-23 pc = $128.00 tap + $65.00 die (+$7.63 tap)
   ... 24-49 pc = $112.30 tap + $59.60 die (+$7.63 tap)

   ... after order confirmation, its 4-5 weeks until shipped.
   ... then I carve the orders up and ship to you.

USPS shipping rates appear to be:
   ... US flate rate $4.60 + insurance $2.45
   ... Canada/Mexico $9.00 + insurance $2.45
   ... Other countries $11.00 + insurance $2.45


I have to recover any costs related to this (e-taps.com shipping  & handling fees; paypal fees, shipping 

fees + insurance to you).

NOTE:
   If people drop out (and we drop below 24) then I'll have to ask for more $$ (approx $22?)
   If I planned wrong (e.g., shipping or insurance) then I may need to ask for a few $$ more.

	--joe


----------



## jtate

Joe,

Can you give us an address to which to mail checks for the items?

Thanks.

I want the tape die and the extra nib tap.

Julia


----------



## Firefyter-emt

OK!!!  It looks like I will be in on this, but I will e-mail you tonight for sure!

I want just the die for now, maybe the internal tap too. No tap for the cap though.


----------



## jjudge

*Thanks to all of you* for comments, feedback, overwhelming response, and trust. I'm nervous as heck about the money, the logistics, etc and hoping we all end up happy with this.

I'll hit each penturners login name with a message ... starting tonight and through tomorrow morning. I'll actually close it when I finish emailing everyone.

If you want to jump the gun, then hit me with the info: 
... in or out? tap+die or tap+die+tap? paypal or what?

I'm @ joe @ intrusion.org and will email my postal address, if you ask.

Firefyter-emt is the only "die only" purchaser
- I'll do the math quick and msg you.

-- joe


----------



## bosipipes

Payment sent

Thanks Joe


----------



## Firefyter-emt

Joe... For now, make mine just the die.  I can pick up the M10x1 tap and Enco the next time I order cutters from my metal lathe for about $5.00  

Sorry for the confusion!


----------



## JC_UAH

Joe,

I'm in.  I will mail a check (money order) when you post the address.

Jeff Carr
Huntsville, AL


----------



## jjudge

NOTE[/b] on extra tap

George, part of the 1st group that used the tap and die set, has emailed some updated info. You should know before you decide on that extra tap.

The M10.0mm x 1.0mm tap for the nib-holder isn't exactly perfect.
The threading is the closest folks have figured out through trial and error. It works enough with the plastic threads of the El Grande nib holder.

So, if you are purchasing the optional tap -- note that it may not be the correct threading. It may be close enough, though.

I'll refund the $7.63, if you've already paid and decide against it. 

-- joe


----------



## kgwaugh

Joe,

In that I am not sure if you have gotten your round of emails out or not, I just want to make sure that everything is straight.  I realize that this deal will involve quite a few $$, and want to make sure I cover ALL of my share of your expenses.  

As I understand your recent post, for all three pieces, my cost will be $201.27 (paid via PayPal).  In that there will be a time delay, I could send you a check, but I imagine that the ease of PayPal would make things easier for you---don't have to deposit check, verify payment, etc).  If the amount above is correct and you want PayPal, just let me know and I will process it.  If, for any reason, you would prefer a check, pls send your snail.

Thanks for putting this together!!

Gene
Elgin, Illinois USA


----------



## jjudge

Gene -
Everyone -

I'm OK with checks, etc. ... I'm a trusting soul.

If you are sending a check, then:
- still email me and tell me
- I'll send you my postal address
- I'll count you in when I place the order (early next week)
- I'll trust the check will clear, etc.

- If it doesn't, then I'll do normal things:
... try to resolve it with you
... if not, I've got an extra tap and die set (oh well, *shrug*)
... my wife will be mad at me for a while 
(because the $$ and bank fees)
... I'll post on the forums saying you're a bum 

-- joe


----------



## sptfr43

You say bum like it's a bad thing[}]


----------



## Ligget

My wife calls me worse than that daily! lol

Joe I`m in for all 3 paid through PayPal, can you confirm money due before I send it.

207.98 = 3 items 
 11.00 = shipping
  2.45 = insurance
-------
221.43   total in USD

If this is correct I will send you PayPal payment.


----------



## kgwaugh

Well, there's "bum", and then there is "bumb", right?


----------



## pipeyeti

Paypal sent from Larry@tamperworks.com.


----------



## Dan_F

Joe---I still want in, but haven't received an email from you.

Dan


----------



## JC_UAH

Joe, 

Sold some stuff today and purchaser used PayPal.  So....money sent via PayPal for Tap/Die/Tap.

Thanks,

Jeff


----------



## sptfr43

anyone have a paypal address for this buy?


----------



## pipeyeti

joe@intrusion.org Is who I sent mine to as he is the organizer of the group buy.


----------



## jjudge

I tried to mamke it easy.

Those prices I posted are "all inclusive" --- I've already wrapped in the shipping & handling e-taps, shipping to you, insurance, everything.  Then I did the non-paypal and paypal versions.

So --- the number should be the number.
I just emailed you Ligget.

-- joe


----------



## jjudge

I've been sending a few email msgs ... and fixing a wrong-built lathe stand today.
So, I'm a little behind in the contact email.

I won't forget you -- I'm rescanning email, making lists, checking twice, and trying to not to make any mistakes or misses.
These are expensive items, so I want to make sure the numbers are right and everyone has a chance.

-- joe


----------



## jjudge

Jeff -- email to you bounced (over quota)
I'll just post my postal address here  ... which was my email to you:


Postsal address =
Joe Judge, 22 Townsend St, Waltham, MA 02453

Make sure you email me, so I know what you're ordering and $$ are coming:
i.e., Tap and Die? tap and die and tap? or just one of the pieces ?

-- joe


----------



## sptfr43

paypal sent Joe. Thanks again. ( now the waiting begins )[]


----------



## gketell

I sent paypal this morning!
GK


----------



## Geo in Winnipeg

Paypal for tap+die+tap set sent to joej AT intrusion dot org
Thanks for doing this Joe.


----------



## jjudge

Messages and email send to all those below. 
There are 34 in total ... so, even if some folks drop out, we should stay above 24 -- so the price stays the same.
Some have already paid. Some have told me to expect checks, money orders, etc.
I'll update status early next week + mid/late week (when I hope to place the order), and so on.

(yes, this means you can squeeze in after today 

Contact list:

roned23
alamocdc
bjackman
bosipipes
Buzz
Chuck Key
Dan_F
DaveM
Geo in Winnipeg
gketell
igran7
JC_UAH
Jim in Oakville
jjudge
johncrane
jtate
kqwaugh
lane223
ldb2000
LEAP
ligget
Nickfff
PenWorks
pipeyeti
PR_Princess
RichW
rlharding
rojo22
scotian12
scubaman
sptfr43
Stevej72
Tanner
WriteRev
Ken Nelson (kallenshaan woods)


----------



## sptfr43

Joe please confirm your paypal address. I see two different ones here and I may have sent to the wrong one. Thanks


----------



## Randy_

> _Originally posted by jjudge_
> 
> .....The M10.0mm x 1.0mm tap for the nib-holder isn't exactly perfect.  The threading is the closest folks have figured out through trial and error. It works enough with the plastic threads of the El Grande nib holder.....



I'm not part of this buy.....was just reading thru it out of curiosity.

Joe:  I'm wondering why you don't just mail off an El Grande section to the folks who are providing the dies and let them measure it up.  Then you will know exactly what size tap you need and whether an M10x1 really is close enough?  Seems like leaving it up to the "trial and error" of a few IAP members to get a size that is "close" is a little risky.  If I were putting out $200 for a set of tools, I would want to be sure I was getting exactly</u> what I needed......not something that was just "close enough".


----------



## Randy_

I just took a look at my Internet reference for metric threads and found the following sizes listed as standard 10mm threads.    

M10 
M10x1.25 
M10x1.12 
M10x1 
M10x0.9
M10x0.75 
M10x0.5 

We don't know for sure that the El Grande section thread is a standard 10mm thread; but if we assume, for the moment, that it is, then perhaps the correct size is the M10x1.12 rather than the M10x1?  And, of course, the other possibility is that the thread is a non-standard size.  

Might be worth checking this out a little more carefully before finalizing the order?







.........................
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



Dallas, TX................................In Their Memory


----------



## sptfr43

Randy, I happen to have the 10x1 tap being ordered. According to my pitch gauge and the El Grande sections I have it is practically dead nuts. So close in fact that there would be no noticable difference between it and the 10x1.12 that you suggest. If this were a close tolerance application it may matter but we are making pens here so in this case " close enough " is just that, close enough. And by the way, the tap in question is only $7.00. The $200.00 ones were taken from the actual El Grande parts sent to e-taps for measurement.


----------



## Ligget

Thanks for the email Joe, PayPal now sent, cheers!


----------



## DaveM

I paid last night.


Thanks again for running this buy.

Dave


----------



## jjudge

I was asked via email to explain the desire or need for such a tap & die. So, I wrote a short and long explanation.

I think its worth sharing.

*Why a multi-start tap & die?*

Short, dry reason:
A multi-start tap & die will let you thread a cap and body so that the cap will "start" at multiple locations, when twisting onto the pen body. 
"Normal" taps/die will thread so that only a single location will work  (e.g., the pen nib holder into the body; or any typical screw into a nut). 
Multi-start tap & die are just not readily available. 

*Group buy?*

Bruce, George, and whomever else joined that first attempt paid about $500 for their sets. 

We've got 24+ people (I hope) and the price is under/near $200


*Ok - but WHY?*


_Here is the long reason:_

Penturning or penmaking is a hobby for some, a business for others. And, for some, its a compulsion. 

Woodturning is fun -- you get to make beautiful, functional art to which people respond. In any art, this is an awesome feedback mechanism. However, with penturning, that feedback loop is faster (in the beginning).
It takes me a month to rough turn a bowl from a log; then dry and warp; and then a final turn down to size and finish. But a pen ... so much quicker!

_*This is how it goes ...*_
You start with the cheaper pen kits. You can turn a few pens in an evening. By that night, your friend/partner/mate is telling you its beautful and takes it to work the next day.

Other people respond to your pens. You start giving them away. Heck! its only a $2 pen kit.  You start selling a few.

You challenge yourself, read more and obsessively scan the pictures at penturners.org, thepenshop, fountainpennetwork, and sawmillcreek.org -- seeking pens to try (copy).

You get better and start taking more risks. 
Other peoples' pens now inspire you to move past copying and challenge you to think along idea expressions or progressions.

You buy better kits. Maybe you start casting odder, interesting and novelty items (fabric, ice cream jimmies/sprinkles, chocolate chips, sand/sea shells). _[note: skip the chocolate chips - even the mini chips won't work: too tall + heat from sanding problems]_

You buy better kits: some rollerballs and maybe a fountain pen. You oogle the expensive kits (mmm... lotus .... emperor). Ken's stars + stripes, puzzle and flag pens are awesome, and inspire you more (until you realize he has a laser cutter, then you cry)

You start to realize that your skill has gotten better. You start getting into pens themselves -- history, art, ink, paper, the experience. 

You also start to realize that this niche has a decent set of talented folks. You start to see the progression "crafts" to "craft." You see the art in the craft.

You've already played with shape and form ... novelty and art ... materials... surface ornamentation ... segmentation ... etc.  You want to challenge yourself further: not just quality, but in expression. 

Maybe you want to differentiate yourself, or maybe you want to simply progress to another degree ... but you realize that you have control over many variables except for the pen kits themselves.

Don't get me wrong, there are some nice pen kits available to us *and* the people who receive your pens think the Baron (sedona, jr gent, retro, whatever) is a beautiful piece of functional art.  However, after seeing 1000s of pictures of these &lt;insert pen kit/style here&gt;, and making maybe hundreds, you want to break free.

So, you buy a closed-end mandrel to make pens without the metal end caps.  Your pens look less like the kit you're using. 

The crutch that the pen kit provides is a little more removed and its really just you making pens "old school."  You are separating yourself from the herd (sorry fellow pen makers) and moving along the path of more penmaking mastership.

However, you're still tied down by pen clip + pen coupling (cap-to-body connection).

This is hard to solve, because a normal tap + die won't really work.
You need a way to thread so that the cap can "start" on the pen at multiple locations. You need  tap and die that cut multiple spirals of threads.
... and they are just not available off the shelf.

Bruce, George and whomever else pursued the tooling of a multi-start tap + die paid nearly <s>$500</s> (edit: oops) over $200 for the set. 

So, here you are, buying a multi-start tap and die. One of a set of folks who've help drive the price down to just under $200.


-- joe


----------



## jjudge

people / status link posted to first article here (page 1)

in case you're nosy:
http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=p5ipezQnAB6fbvXWDTRt1GA&output=html

-- joe


----------



## scubaman

> _Originally posted by sptfr43_
> 
> and the 10x1.12 that you suggest.


I also don't understand why on earth this should be a topic of speculation.  The pitch *IS* 1 mm.  M10x1 is correct.  Plus, it has been said that it works.  This feels like some Greek philosophers sitting around arguing whether a horse has 3 legs or 4 legs.  The female thread can be cut exactly with an M10x1 tap.  The *MALE* thread is not a fully formed ISO thread - but that's a differnet story, totally irrelevant here.  The pitch can be taken eactly off the male thread, using a pitch gouge.  The ID of am M10x1 female thread should be 9mm - go measure!  Well, it is...

Funny how these isosceles triangles work out, how you simply subtract the pitch (1)from the major thread (10) to get the minor thresd (9) [8D]


----------



## WriteRev

Paypal sent.

Thanks for taking this on!

Steve


----------



## Firefyter-emt

Hey Joe, did you get to me yet? I didn't see me in there for the die only?


----------



## Texatdurango

> _Originally posted by scubaman_
> 
> [...I also don't understand why on earth this should be a topic of speculation.  The pitch *IS* 1 mm.  M10x1 is correct.   The ID of am M10x1 female thread should be 9mm - go measure!  Well, it is...


Rich, I have two questions based on your comments.

1. Is the 10x1mm tap "Correct" or "close enough" for the Berea BHW-703/4/5 nib holder?  THAT is what some, including myself are referring to!  

2. Have you drilled and tapped many holes with a 9mm bit and the 10x1mm tap for the Berea BHW-703/4/5 nib holders?  If so, what are your impressions of the fit?

I've only done a few dozen lately but found that the fit was so sloppy that I changed bit sizes.

The sloppy fit was explained to me by two different local tap and die makers working at two different tool supply houses who both had a look at and measured the nib holder.  They both said basically the same thing; that since the molded plastic threads of the nib holder were non-standard, the 10x1mm was indeed "close enough" and would work but not provide a smooth "wiggle free, **** poor" fit (as one die maker put it).

"Bruce, George and whomever else pursued the tooling of a multi-start tap + die paid nearly $500 for the set."

Actually Joe, just to keep folks from throwing around wild numbers, we paid a shade over $200 each, not $500 for the tap and die.

George


----------



## ldb2000

Hi Joe
Paypal sent for one complete set (all 3)


----------



## scubaman

> _Originally posted by Texatdurango_
> 
> 1. Is the 10x1mm tap "Correct" or "close enough" for the Berea BHW-703/4/5 nib holder?  THAT is what some, including myself are referring to!


Alright, close enough.  What's 'correct' in molded plastic?  I don't have access to the parts drawings...  The real problem with the fit is (I think) that the male thread on the nib is not a fully formed thread.  It is undersize.  The peaks are formed, the valleys are flat.  The OD is not 10mm...  Similarly, the female thread.  If you cut one open you can see that.  I just looked at a broken one.  But the pitch is 1mm.  I guess molded plastic threads are a whole different ball game!

So, I was wrong in stating it was 'correct'.  Also, the 9mm seems like a 'coincidence' nearly because the threads are not fully formed.

My thread gauge has 1.1 mm and it is over...  I still think the 1mm pitch is 'correct' I mean 'close enough' 

So what are you doing...  drill undersize and don't run the plug tap in all the way?  Hmmm...  that would not do it either...

I think if you drill 9mm and tap M10x1 you will get a fit that is as good as the original fittings which is NOT a perfect, no-slop fit!  So the answer is...  cut both threads, make your own section, and use screw-in cartridge nib assemblies like Anthony sells.  Don't follow the Berea model, use a construction like CSU uses.  An M10x1 die should not be hard to find.  You can get Schmidt assemblies also.  The internal thread for a Schmidt cartridge is M6.5x.5 and I believe for a Bock is M7.5x.5.  I don't have the drawing for the Bock, maybe Anthony does.  If you go that route you own both threads and the fit is up to you.  It will be better than the original!


----------



## Texatdurango

I think since the flats of the male threads are shallow, a slightly smaller drill can be used that what is normally recommended with the 10x1 tap.  I tried Letter "S", 11/32 and letter "R" before settling on the letter "Q" which still allows the nib to easily screw in but not near the slop as with the 9mm.

I am not recommending this to anyone, simply stating that it works for me.  I also like using the Berea nib holder because of the simple black holder which can easily be turned down to cover with a matching acrylic piece to match the pen.  I've used a few CSUSA nib holders but the problem I have encountered is that in order to get the larger holder, you have to order a complete kit, which I don't want to do.

George


----------



## jjudge

I fixed the $500 number in the previous msg. 
--

-- joe


----------



## scubaman

> _Originally posted by Texatdurango_
> 
> I think since the flats of the male threads


I moved to a separate thread - this is getting quite far from the group buy http://www.penturners.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=34311


----------



## Randy_

> _Originally posted by scubaman_
> 
> 1.  I also don't understand why on earth this should be a topic of speculation. The pitch *IS* 1 mm. M10x1 is correct.....


The reason I raised this question is pretty simple/obvious.  Joe posted the following statement:

â€œâ€¦..The M10.0mm x 1.0mm tap for the nib-holder isn't exactly perfect.  The threading is the closest folks have figured out through trial and error. It works enough with the plastic threads of the El Grande nib holder.  So, if you are purchasing the optional tap -- *note that it may not be the correct threading.* It may be close enough, thoughâ€¦..â€

which gives the strong impression that the tap in question could be the incorrect size.




> _Originally posted by scubaman_
> 
> 2.  ....Plus, it has been said that it works. This feels like some Greek philosophers sitting around arguing whether a horse has 3 legs or 4 legs.....


Since Rich says that an M10x1 tap is correct, I am perfectly happy to accept that information as correct unless someone has strong information to the contrary.  OTOH, the fact that it â€œworksâ€ is less than a compelling argument.  Oval pens work.  Transmissions seated a little deep or shallow still work.  Barrels sanded proud of the hardware work; but all of us will avoid those things like the plague if we possibly can.  And, I for one, probably would not ever consider purchasing a 3 legged horse either!




> _Originally posted by scubaman_
> 
> 3. ...The female thread can be cut exactly with an M10x1 tap. The *MALE* thread is not a fully formed ISO thread - but that's a differnet story, totally irrelevant here. The pitch can be taken eactly off the male thread, using a pitch gouge. The ID of am M10x1 female thread should be 9mm - go measure! Well, it is...


Not quite sure what is meant here.  â€œIDâ€ is not a dimension normally associated with describing tap dimensions.  The tap drill size is 9.0 mm; but the minor diameter of the M10x1 male thread is actually 8.773mm and the female thread is actually 8.917mm.




> _Originally posted by scubaman_
> 
> 4.  .....Funny how these isosceles triangles work out, how you simply subtract the pitch (1) from the major thread (10) to get the minor thresd (9).....


Neither the male nor the female threads are pure isosceles triangles so maybe Rich enlisted his Greek philosophers for this issue as well.  Here is a drawing of the geometry of a metric thread for those who are interested.






And here is a link to a chart that shows the actual values for the standard metric threads. http://mdmetric.com/tech/thddat3.htm

I really donâ€™t have a dog in this fight.  I just noticed there seemed to be a little uncertainty in the size of the one tap and provided some information that might point folks in a direction that could resolve the uncertaintyâ€¦..thought someone might want to look into this a little closer before spending a lot of money.  Might be a problem here, might not?  Do as you see fit.






.........................
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



Dallas, TX................................In Their Memory


----------



## dfurlano

The nib tap is $7.63. If it's wrong I don't think it's a big deal.  The triple start taps have been proven to work properly and they were sent to the tap maker for size determination and verification.


----------



## Firefyter-emt

One could always buy the M10x1 die and cut the final threads for the proper fit as well you know.


----------



## scubaman

> _Originally posted by dfurlano_
> 
> The nib tap is $7.63. If it's wrong I don't think it's a big deal.  The triple start taps have been proven to work properly and they were sent to the tap maker for size determination and verification.


Exactly my sensation.

These threads are NOT standard threads.  Hence the charts don't work.  The pitch is correct, the threads work - but are lose.  Even in the original!

One comment:  Anybody ordering these taps/dies is going down a path way outside the kit-pen world.  You have to be ready for surprises.

And if we want to split hairs...  the minor diameter of the female thread that I incorrectly called 'ID' can't be under 9mm...  it is over


----------



## jjudge

Status 
-- 30 confirmed (paypal paid, or check/money order coming)
-- I've not heard from 4 folks: Chuck Key, lane223, Nickfff, RichW
-- Jim in Oakville may or may not be in.

-- joe


----------



## Chuck Key

> _Originally posted by jjudge_
> 
> 
> Status
> -- 30 confirmed (paypal paid, or check/money order coming)
> -- I've not heard from 4 folks: Chuck Key, lane223, Nickfff, RichW
> -- Jim in Oakville may or may not be in.
> 
> -- joe




I sent you two emails on this.  Sending a $191.58 check/money order for tap, die, tap combo.

Chuckie


----------



## Randy_

> _Originally posted by scubaman_
> 
> .....And if we want to split hairs...  the minor diameter of the female thread that I incorrectly called *'ID' can't be under 9mm...  it is over *




If you will think about this carefully, you will realize this is not possible. you can't put a 9+ mm peg in a 9 mm hole.


----------



## sptfr43

Have we beat this to death yet? I would say so.


----------



## scubaman

> _Originally posted by Randy__
> If you will think about this carefully, you will realize this is not possible. you can't put a 9+ mm peg in a 9 mm hole.


I suspect one of us got the male/female thing backwards.


----------



## Texatdurango

> _Originally posted by sptfr43_
> 
> Have we beat this to death yet? I would say so.


Has it been beat to death... YES!  Did it need to be brought out...YES!

I brought all this 10x1mm tap business to the surface last week because after making a few "kitless pens" I received many emails asking almost every question under the sun and there was/is a lot of confusion, especially with the nib taps.  As Rich said, many folks are stepping out into unchartered territory and there isn't always a clear black and white answer when you are making your own parts rather than just pressing a kit together.  I just didn't want anyone hollaring foul when their multi start tap and dies arrived and they started seeing sloppy threads with their nib tap and wanting someone to blame for not telling them what to expect!

The way I see it, everyone by now should be aware of the Berea nib and 10x1mm tap issue.


----------



## Ligget

Without getting technical, will this tap and die set work for the purpose it is being bought for?

Not too bothered about the M10 matter, but I want to get a tap and die I can use.


----------



## lane223

Joe,

I sent a couple of e-mails and paypal payment yesterday, and another e-mail today. Trying this means of communication also.


----------



## jtate

Has someone prepared or will someone prepare a tutorial on the use of our taps and dies?  

Now, that would be quite helpful.


----------



## sptfr43

paypal sent Joe.


----------



## kgwaugh

OK, Joe, I have come up with:
Tap		128.00
Die		 59.60
Tap		  7.63
USPS		  4.60
Ins		  2.45
for:	       $186.58	

I am sending the check out today; sorry for the delay.  If this amount is off, LET ME KNOW, please.  I scanned back through all of the posts and think I have the correct prices.
Thanks for putting this together!

Gene


----------



## jjudge

*Moving status to email messages now ... *

... last chance for stragglers who haven't joined in ....


----------



## jski

Is there still time to jump in on this? What do I do?


----------



## Nickfff

Joe,
Thank you for coordinating this!

I just paypaled $201.76 to you for all 3 pieces.

Nick


----------



## Johnathan

If anyone has ordered all three and has changed their minds, let me know, I will buy it from you. Thanks


----------



## Johnathan

If anyone purchased all three and wish they had not, email me as I'd like to buy them. Thanks.


----------



## DaveM

I got mine today.  Thank you very much.  I can't wait to try it out.


----------



## ldb2000

Hi Joe
Got mine today but have to wait a bit .
Thanks for everything


----------



## Rojo22

Got mine in the mail yesterday, cannot wait to see how it turns out.


----------



## bjackman

Joe,
Mine arrived safe and sound in yesterday's mail as well.
Thanks again for taking on this project and offering it out to the group.
Isn't it great how an excercise in trust from both sides such as this works out so smoothly.
Can't wait to play with them and wish I didn't have so many other projects waiting in front if them.


----------



## gketell

Ditto!!  Fun to come!

GK


----------



## scotian12

Hi Joe...just to let you know that my parcel safely arrived this morning. I appreciate your efforts in organizing this purchase. hopefully we will see a tutorial or two on how to use this new tool.   Darrell


----------



## Buzz

Hi Joe.  Mine were received here yesterday morning.  Great work, thank you.


----------



## sptfr43

still waiting for mine. was out of town for a couple weeks and don't know if delivery was attempted or mine just got lost in the shuffle.


----------

