# Close IAP wood chart and remove the forum



## phillywood

*Close IAP wood chart and remove the forum.* 
Folks I need your vote to ask Jeff to close the wood chart and remove the forum, since giving it a seperate forum caused no visit or contribution to the chart. It became another additional forum that would take space on your screen. I would apprecaite your feed back.

And, curtis, no you can not remove this thread since we need to know the answer.

It's apparent that no traffic and no input was made to the chart after it was moved to the subforum so we need to find out once and for all. the idea of giving it a house in the back stage killed it. Out of site, out of mind.


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## alphageek

The idea is sound.... The information you have gathered is good.... Why destroy something that is already there?

Who knows what the next step for it may be - I know that you feel it has died, but I also know that there were others that thought it was taking up too much on the new items.   I really believe that there is good places for this kind of information, I'm just not sure we've found the right balance yet.

As for removing this thread - I don't see anything wrong with it (but then I'm new at this part of things)...  But you telling Curtis that he can't will have no bearing on that - I fully don't believe he removes things without the proper reasons (or I wouldn't have agreed to join the moderators).  However, if he has a valid reason, it will go - no matter what you believe.

As for the outcome of the thread.... You can ask.. Even if 100% of the votes say so... all you can do is ask.


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## MesquiteMan

Since you are telling me what I can and can not delete on IAP, why don't you go TELL Jeff to immediately remove the forum?!


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## phillywood

alphageek said:


> The idea is sound.... The information you have gathered is good.... Why destroy something that is already there?
> 
> Who knows what the next step for it may be - I know that you feel it has died, but I also know that there were others that thought it was taking up too much on the new items. I really believe that there is good places for this kind of information, I'm just not sure we've found the right balance yet.
> 
> As for removing this thread - I don't see anything wrong with it (but then I'm new at this part of things)... But you telling Curtis that he can't will have no bearing on that - I fully don't believe he removes things without the proper reasons (or I wouldn't have agreed to join the moderators). However, if he has a valid reason, it will go - no matter what you believe.
> 
> As for the outcome of the thread.... You can ask.. Even if 100% of the votes say so... all you can do is ask.


 
the point being was that the moving of the threads for info gathering to a sub forum killed it, because now no one even answers my threads for asking for info since they can't see it. I am asking to close it so whatever is there would stay, because they are not my info. it's just he idea of killing a good thing is a turn off. 
members come and ask the same info every day and someone answers it, I got something [positive going, but the it got killed. I don't even get answers even when I PM people so, if they have me on their ignore list then why even make an AZZ out of myself.  
 You see threads for unrelated subjects that almost everyone jumps on it for a reply, and I don't want to become annoyance,by PMing members to put info in the chart. the respond was good when we started it because they could see the thread. I think if we close it then the forum won't be there and no one has to worry about the list and if they want to add to it they will figure out a way. Since we couldn't figure out a way to create a temple for it.


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## kinggabby

Have you thought people might have other lives than to answer every PM and email sent ? Yes the idea of a chart is a good idea. But come on you are trying to force it down peoples throats and trying to make them feel bad. Lighten up.


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## phillywood

In the months past I put thread in penturing and you removed them and put them in the subforum since I was asking for participation. I meant no disrespect or you taking it that way. I am trying to get to the real answer and ask Jeff to close the subforum for good. and leave the info in the library, since the idea is killed.


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## kinggabby

I don't know if you know but every time you post on that forum it shows up when someone clicks new post. So it is being seen. Some times people can't remember a specific wood or non- wood they have worked with. Some people have made hundreds of pens ( I know if I have made that many I could not remember them all )


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## terryf

alphageek said:


> The idea is sound.... The information you have gathered is good.... Why destroy something that is already there?
> 
> Who knows what the next step for it may be - I know that you feel it has died, but I also know that there were others that thought it was taking up too much on the new items.   I really believe that there is good places for this kind of information, I'm just not sure we've found the right balance yet.
> 
> As for removing this thread - I don't see anything wrong with it (but then I'm new at this part of things)...  But you telling Curtis that he can't will have no bearing on that - I fully don't believe he removes things without the proper reasons (or I wouldn't have agreed to join the moderators).  However, if he has a valid reason, it will go - no matter what you believe.
> 
> As for the outcome of the thread.... You can ask.. Even if 100% of the votes say so... all you can do is ask.



What he said!


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## alphageek

phillywood said:
			
		

> In the months past I put thread in penturing and you removed them and put them in the subforum since I was asking for participation. I meant no disrespect or you taking it that way. I am trying to get to the real answer and ask Jeff to close the subforum for good. and leave the info in the library, since the idea is killed.



I suggest that you check your facts carefully... You specifically called out Curtis on this one and I looked at the suggestion box threads that started the move... I don't see him in there anywhere.

As for the 'real answer'..... I'm not sure what you mean by that but I don't see any benefit in closing the sub forum.  Several other sub forums here are slow moving, but that doesn't mean they should be closed.


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## ldb2000

Phillip , this is not the way to go about it . What you were trying to do is a good thing , the chart will grow and become a great reference but it is going to take time . Look at the page views , people are looking and contributing but it will take time to grow . People will add to it but this is not something that can be built quickly . I know you want it to become an instant success but that's not going to happen . You can't force people to join in and brow beating them will just turn them off (Boy , I learned that lesson the hard way) Just leave it the way it is , put up suggestions for new woods and materials and slowly people will add their input , they just have to get used to the idea at their own pace .


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## gketell

I personally didn't like the requests posted in the main penturning forum because those requests were beginning to out number the "real" posts of the forum AND there was no way to tell a wood chart request from a end-user post request info or talking about the wood.

That said, I think having it as a separate forum is less useful.  As Philly says, no one visits it.  But, we are trying to build the IAP  wiki and that is what this is, a list of information that we want  different people to provide the info for.  That is exactly what "wiki"s  are about, populace edited information.  Why not start a section in the IAP wiki for wood info and post all this stuff there.  Then when anyone has info they can edit it as they like.  No load on the IAP staff, no load on Philly, and all the info stays available and easily found (provided the search engine searches the wiki too).

My two (or twenty) cents.


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## alphageek

It's also in the wiki ... Just need to start putting info into it... http://www.penturners.org/wiki/Raw_Materials

The wiki is still a great idea ... Just need to get enough info to be used more in there...


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## MesquiteMan

Believe me, the Wiki is the place that it is and was preferred to be put.  Jeff wanted it put there but got push back and did not insist.  Instead, he tried to please everyone like he frequently does.


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## rjwolfe3

The problem with Wiki is that no one wants to help put it on Wiki. I am still waiting on someone to write a quick tutorial on how to put stuff on Wiki. I had hoped that when it was first suggested that this project be put on Wiki that Randy would jump in and volunteer to show Phil how to do it. Maybe he has, I don't know. I just know in my trying to navigate Wiki that it is apparently not that simple to put info on there or there would be a much greater abundance of info there!


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## maxwell_smart007

I agree.  The Wiki would have been a perfect place for the information, because it's a continual, never-ending project that needs constant editing. 

For that reason, the chart was moved to its own area, so that it would not take over the forum proper.  It's still accessible to anyone that wishes to go and add to it - just because it's not on the front page with banners flashing and sirens wailing doesn't mean that it can't be found if someone wants to participate. 

I think that this is the perfect project to jumpstart the Wiki project; but you're right, Rob - no one knows how to use the Wiki, and it's daunting because it's rather empty - no one wants to be first, it seems.  Maybe a tutorial would be a nice thing to have!


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## GaryMGg

Does "Close it" mean "move it back to main area"?
or
Does "Close it" mean "make it read only where it is"?

I think Greg's post (#11) hits the mark.

Phillip, perhaps instead of pushing the IAP Wood Chart down everyone's throat (my perspective of what's been happening), you might consider walking away from it for a while and instead concentrate on teaching yourself how Wiki's work and writing a template and tutorial from what you learn.
My $.035, adjusted for inflation.
Cheers,
Gary


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## witz1976

I too think it was being pushed too far.  It seemed that every time someone posted something new and unique there was a post asking to fill out the form to add it. 
I personally would rather try it myself, screw up and learn how to turn.  Sure some tutorials are good, but we do not need it for everything. 

Also, and this is just me, but that took some big brass ones to tell a moderator he cannot do his job.  This is why I am getting a little tired of this group.  People not respecting other people.


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## kinggabby

I think that if you might want to move it along faster that maybe you could find that material. In doing so not only do you learn the material but you also improve on your own turnings.


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## alphageek

I think a GREAT compromise and maybe the best overall answer (My opinion only) - would be to start moving the information to the Wiki... As each material is moved into the wiki, a final post pointing to it in the materials thread, then the thread is locked.   Once all materials are moved into the wiki - then we could close the forum.

So...  The wiki quick start is here: http://www.penturners.org/wiki/Quick_Start

If there is questions on how to use the wiki... post them here: http://www.penturners.org/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=118

Then maybe we can get the wiki off the ground... Think about it ... the wiki could be come a HUGE searchable place if each active member put in just one little edit a week.  And I don't mean just materials... Pen kits, dimensions, how-tos....


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## jimm1

here we go again


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## ed4copies

ldb2000 said:


> Phillip , this is not the way to go about it . What you were trying to do is a good thing , the chart will grow and become a great reference but it is going to take time . Look at the page views , people are looking and contributing but it will take time to grow . People will add to it but this is not something that can be built quickly . I know you want it to become an instant success but that's not going to happen . You can't force people to join in and brow beating them will just turn them off (Boy , I learned that lesson the hard way) Just leave it the way it is , put up suggestions for new woods and materials and slowly people will add their input , they just have to get used to the idea at their own pace .




I agree with this new, extremely thoughtful Butch!!  GREAT entry, my friend!!!


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## hunter-27

phillywood said:


> *Close IAP wood chart and remove the forum.*
> Folks I need your vote to ask Jeff to close the wood chart and remove the forum, since giving it a seperate forum caused no visit or contribution to the chart. It became another additional forum that would take space on your screen. I would apprecaite your feed back.
> 
> And, curtis, no you can not remove this thread since we need to know the answer.
> 
> It's apparent that no traffic and no input was made to the chart after it was moved to the subforum so we need to find out once and for all. the idea of giving it a house in the back stage killed it. Out of site, out of mind.


Phillip,

I think you skewed your own poll by stating things the way you did.  It was and IS STILL a good idea.  Everyone is aware I have rushed into judgement of criticisims against me in the past.  Don't get so defensive, let the idea grow and develop.  Work with those who are trying to help.  It is an enormous undertaking and I respect you for tackling it.  That being said I hope you can realize that it is not going to happen at warp speed no matter how hard you push it.  Sometimes my friend you need to SLOW DOWN to GO FASTER.  You say there was no traffic to the subforum but the view count tells a different story as I see it.  Not everyone will use the info, fewer still will help with it.  That being said, I think more are and will use it than you may think.  Keep on it but be willing to pace yourself and accept the help afforded to you.  I don't understand the Wiki, so I can't help you there but in theory it sounds promising.  Take care my friend, dont hesitate to give me a shout if you need something.  If I can help, I will.

Landon


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## GaryMGg

hunter-27 said:


> ...the view count tells a different story as I see it. ...


 
Great input Landon. Something not a lot of folks seem to realize:
the Viewing of each post (thread) FAR, FAR, FAR outweighs the responses in nearly all cases.
In business, there's an 80/20 rule: 80% of your business comes from 20% of your customers.
With this forum, I'm guessing it's more of a 90/10 split; maybe greater.

And that's fine. Folks should feel welcome to visit as pleases their nature.
Post, don't post. Just be easy and easy to get along with. :wink:


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## Skye

alphageek said:


> The idea is sound.... The information you have gathered is good.... Why destroy something that is already there?



That.


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## Sylvanite

alphageek said:


> It's also in the wiki ... Just need to start putting info into it...


Is there a wiki template for entries yet?


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## rjwolfe3

Not to my knowledge, I think Phil is still hoping someone will help show him how. Or at least show me how and I will put the chart in!



Sylvanite said:


> alphageek said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's also in the wiki ... Just need to start putting info into it...
> 
> 
> 
> Is there a wiki template for entries yet?
Click to expand...


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## Snorton20

Phillip, what you are doing is building a reference to hundreds of woods and such.  Collecting all these references takes time. All I can say is thank you and other IAP members that contributed to this reference chart. Don't give up, it's not like this is the only thing on your mind, so don't sweat it.  Rome was not built in a day.


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## alphageek

I did create a template, and tied one product to it.... That being said - I think the template was more work than it would be without...   So I'm still trying to come up with what to do about that.


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## capcrnch

rjwolfe3 said:


> Not to my knowledge, I think Phil is still hoping someone will help show him how. Or at least show me how and I will put the chart in!
> 
> 
> 
> Sylvanite said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> alphageek said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's also in the wiki ... Just need to start putting info into it...
> 
> 
> 
> Is there a wiki template for entries yet?
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


I'm working on playing with it to make it wiki friendly.

I'm also leading a viva LeWiki charge right now and talking with Randy..
I've got some ideas cooking in my head where I think the wiki can be streamlined, organized and easy to use for everyone.


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## phillywood

kinggabby said:


> Have you thought people might have other lives than to answer every PM and email sent ? Yes the idea of a chart is a good idea. But come on you are trying to force it down peoples throats and trying to make them feel bad. Lighten up.


 
Dave have you ever contributed? I don't remember sending you any PMs asking you to contribute. You sounded off before, so I left you alone. the participation is voluntary, so if you never contributed then why are you complaining?


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## phillywood

alphageek said:


> phillywood said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In the months past I put thread in penturing and you removed them and put them in the subforum since I was asking for participation. I meant no disrespect or you taking it that way. I am trying to get to the real answer and ask Jeff to close the subforum for good. and leave the info in the library, since the idea is killed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I suggest that you check your facts carefully... You specifically called out Curtis on this one and I looked at the suggestion box threads that started the move... I don't see him in there anywhere.
> 
> As for the 'real answer'..... I'm not sure what you mean by that but I don't see any benefit in closing the sub forum. Several other sub forums here are slow moving, but that doesn't mean they should be closed.
Click to expand...

Dan, you got the isuue mixed up.


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## phillywood

gketell said:


> I personally didn't like the requests posted in the main penturning forum because those requests were beginning to out number the "real" posts of the forum AND there was no way to tell a wood chart request from a end-user post request info or talking about the wood.
> 
> That said, I think having it as a separate forum is less useful. As Philly says, no one visits it. But, we are trying to build the IAP wiki and that is what this is, a list of information that we want different people to provide the info for. That is exactly what "wiki"s are about, populace edited information. Why not start a section in the IAP wiki for wood info and post all this stuff there. Then when anyone has info they can edit it as they like. No load on the IAP staff, no load on Philly, and all the info stays available and easily found (provided the search engine searches the wiki too).
> 
> My two (or twenty) cents.


Greg, I appreciate your input. the idea of Wiki is fine. I don't have any problems with that. I like you to do a Poll on the use of Wiki, and ask that how many can actually find information on it when you go and click Wiki button? It took me a long time just to find out that Butch entered a chart post under one of the woods.
Here how I got there, clicked the Wiki button so it went to *Welcome to IAP-Wiki,* then I had to click on every one of those options on the left to figure out that I finally needed to click on *Special pages *(how many of you know that in order to get to the wood names this is the option you have to click on?), then you have to go under the *List of pages* and *click on all pages *then you see this list:


acrylester Acrylic Acetate Advance penturning

then you have to go down the list to find the *wood species* and click on that. Next you get this pane that gives you info Category: Wood species, now you have to click on this again
now you get a list which is vague and under the W category you see wood species again.

The point is that people complain that this (wood chart) is being shoved down their throat VS. just going to Wiki.  They have to go through all these steps that I mentioned and I like to time the darn thing and see how long actually it takes for someone to find out the info.
The wiki is fine, but it needs a lots of fine tuning to do and look decent enough for someone actually navigate in it.  what I started her is simple because everyone knows about MS Word.If you download it in MS and follow all the links it jumps like if you do a search in a book.
Now I rest my case. Since people here bicker about it, I want to to ask Jeff to close it so I don't have to ask members to send me the info. and I have to then input them and correct them individually. Also, the file has gotten to 23+ MB and I am not in a position to buy zip program to zip the file to send to Jeff so he in turn upload it on to the IAP. Still, you need someone to manage the data so it would be consistent. Well, I have to put up with members bickering in the background and I can't even ask my own qsn. in penturning forum if it involves some wood for my own info. because in the past when I did it Curtis thought that it was related to wood chart, so it got deleted. 
This is why I am asking to close it. that way I go back having my privileges restored without being deleted. I ask my qsn.s in a thread and I am sure few people will answer them and life goes on.
Now , I am becoming the bad guy, because I brought on a new idea. So, whoever is interested then they can figure out a way with the help of new computer experts her on IAp how to input and if they want to input it in the chart.

Thank, to those who responded to this thread. I rest my case. Your answer is the result of the poll.
Best regards,


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## phillywood

alphageek said:


> It's also in the wiki ... Just need to start putting info into it... http://www.penturners.org/wiki/Raw_Materials
> 
> The wiki is still a great idea ... Just need to get enough info to be used more in there...


 
Dean, You put this link on the post , I wonder did you click on it to see wher it takes you some of those names don't even have links. and the info.s are the same things that you can find in better details from other sources.


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## phillywood

rjwolfe3 said:


> The problem with Wiki is that no one wants to help put it on Wiki. I am still waiting on someone to write a quick tutorial on how to put stuff on Wiki. I had hoped that when it was first suggested that this project be put on Wiki that Randy would jump in and volunteer to show Phil how to do it. Maybe he has, I don't know. I just know in my trying to navigate Wiki that it is apparently not that simple to put info on there or there would be a much greater abundance of info there!


Rob, I thought same thing too, i waited long enough, but no answer as to how to upload the darn thing to Wiki. When you find out we all gonna be happy.


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## phillywood

GaryMGg said:


> Does "Close it" mean "move it back to main area"?
> or
> Does "Close it" mean "make it read only where it is"?
> 
> I think Greg's post (#11) hits the mark.
> 
> Phillip, perhaps instead of pushing the IAP Wood Chart down every one's throat (my perspective of what's been happening), you might consider walking away from it for a while and instead concentrate on teaching yourself how Wiki's work and writing a template and tutorial from what you learn.
> My $.035, adjusted for inflation.
> Cheers,
> Gary


 
Gary, I respected your help from the very beginning when you offered it with blanks and other advises. What I am asking is that close the forum and get rid of it then no one can access the forum then the info which is already gathered will be posted as is in the library as read only and that will put an end to all these feeling of (shoving it down members' throat) you guys make it sound like that I am putting a gun to people's head and telling them to put info. in it, which I am not.
 I am washing my hands off this because now it's my time to make pens and things. But the point I am making is that if this is open and I buy let's say certain wood and I am having problem with then I can not ask for help in Pen Turning forum just like the rest of you do and get personal help, because the moderators (now three) will push it to the sub forum and I never get my answer. plus, the way the chart is now I have to constantly convert it to the chart format and then add it to the chart which is taking my time, yet alone PMing people to ask them to add.
Which is making me lose my credibility.


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## phillywood

witz1976 said:


> I too think it was being pushed too far. It seemed that every time someone posted something new and unique there was a post asking to fill out the form to add it.
> I personally would rather try it myself, screw up and learn how to turn. Sure some tutorials are good, but we do not need it for everything.
> 
> Also, and this is just me, but that took some big brass ones to tell a moderator he cannot do his job. This is why I am getting a little tired of this group. People not respecting other people.


 
Dan if you like to practice what you wrote above, then it makes me wonder why are you  on the IAP exactly, you seem to do everything on your own? then You don't need IAP's help.
I don't think that anyone on IAP is twisting your arm to like this Group if you think that we don't respect each other. you seem to have lots of growing up to do, buddy.


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## phillywood

hunter-27 said:


> phillywood said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Close IAP wood chart and remove the forum.*
> Folks I need your vote to ask Jeff to close the wood chart and remove the forum, since giving it a separate forum caused no visit or contribution to the chart. It became another additional forum that would take space on your screen. I would appreciate your feed back.
> 
> And, Curtis, no you can not remove this thread since we need to know the answer.
> 
> It's apparent that no traffic and no input was made to the chart after it was moved to the sub forum so we need to find out once and for all. the idea of giving it a house in the back stage killed it. Out of site, out of mind.
> 
> 
> 
> Phillip,
> 
> I think you skewed your own poll by stating things the way you did. It was and IS STILL a good idea. Everyone is aware I have rushed into judgement of criticisms against me in the past. Don't get so defensive, let the idea grow and develop. Work with those who are trying to help. It is an enormous undertaking and I respect you for tackling it. That being said I hope you can realize that it is not going to happen at warp speed no matter how hard you push it. Sometimes my friend you need to SLOW DOWN to GO FASTER. You say there was no traffic to the sub forum but the view count tells a different story as I see it. Not everyone will use the info, fewer still will help with it. That being said, I think more are and will use it than you may think. Keep on it but be willing to pace yourself and accept the help afforded to you. I don't understand the Wiki, so I can't help you there but in theory it sounds promising. Take care my friend, don't hesitate to give me a shout if you need something. If I can help, I will.
> 
> Landon
Click to expand...

 
Landon, I appreciate your kind words. I am by no means in a hurry and I realize what I undertook. I didn't mind it when I first started it, but now I realize that i created more enemies than friends. Then, I thought about it that there only few members who help, including you, Ed, ken, rob, and few others. Then we have all those clicks and when I had the chart on an independent site we got so many people asking me to send them the copy of it, now it seems that no one wants to even bother with it to continue and I am becoming the evil child asking them to input their already info that they are putting it in the show your pens forum in the chart.   

I thought we as whole are here on IAP to help each other, now it became just the handful helping all the others. We have silly threads going on all the time and members make all kind of posts, form funny to not so funny and just two or three min. of the info input which they already have posted will not hurt. anyways i did my part and now someone else can steer the ship to the shore, I guess.
Best regards,


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## phillywood

jimm1 said:


> here we go again


Jim, with all due respect do you see me saying anything when you post other stuff on other threads? when you wanted to sell me your JD banks I didn't complain about your PMs at all and i haven't seen you even putting a post about those blanks in the chart then you make this kind of comment here?


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## phillywood

Sylvanite said:


> alphageek said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's also in the wiki ... Just need to start putting info into it...
> 
> 
> 
> Is there a wiki template for entries yet?
Click to expand...

Eric, the answer is no. there hasn't been any.


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## phillywood

rjwolfe3 said:


> Not to my knowledge, I think Phil is still hoping someone will help show him how. Or at least show me how and I will put the chart in!
> 
> 
> 
> Sylvanite said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> alphageek said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's also in the wiki ... Just need to start putting info into it...
> 
> 
> 
> Is there a wiki template for entries yet?
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

 
Rob, I appreciate your frankness trying to help. i think you have done enough already by putting most of the info. in and you also got your own projects going. I think it is only fair for others to help now.


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## phillywood

Snorton20 said:


> Phillip, what you are doing is building a reference to hundreds of woods and such. Collecting all these references takes time. All I can say is thank you and other IAP members that contributed to this reference chart. Don't give up, it's not like this is the only thing on your mind, so don't sweat it. Rome was not built in a day.


Joe, thank you for your kind wish. I am off to making my own pens, if any one likes the idea and think it's worth it they can ask Jeff to find new replacement for me like we have had recently. 
Dean, seemed to try to work out the Template, maybe he will find an answer soon.


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## phillywood

capcrnch said:


> rjwolfe3 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not to my knowledge, I think Phil is still hoping someone will help show him how. Or at least show me how and I will put the chart in!
> 
> 
> 
> Sylvanite said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> alphageek said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's also in the wiki ... Just need to start putting info into it...
> 
> 
> 
> Is there a wiki template for entries yet?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm working on playing with it to make it wiki friendly.
> 
> I'm also leading a viva LeWiki charge right now and talking with Randy..
> I've got some ideas cooking in my head where I think the wiki can be streamlined, organized and easy to use for everyone.
Click to expand...

 
Rich, I am wondering we got you, Dean, Randy and so many others that are after this Wiki thing and trying to make it work. Deasn't that tell you that maybe the Wiki itslef is still young and needs alots of work and such an idea is not ready to go there yet. We can leave this alone for awhile and let everyone live their normal life and have the things go back to way they were before Phillip was here. Then you all can develop the Wiki better and make it more consumer freindly, and by then if I am around and kicking then we take it up again.


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## MesquiteMan

phillywood said:


> Well, I have to put up with members bickering in the background and I can't even ask my own qsn. in penturning forum if it involves some wood for my own info. because in the past when I did it Curtis thought that it was related to wood chart, so it got deleted.



That's funny, Philip.  I went back and looked at every thread you have ever started here on IAP.  You, sir, are stating mis-truths regarding me deleting your posts here on IAP.  I just so happen to have at my disposal, the ability to go back and READ every single thread that is deleted since nothing is permanently deleted.  Here is what I found:

100 thread started
4 TOTAL threads deleted
Of those 4:


1 was the thread asking for pen kits that turned nasty and was deleted.
1 was a thread where you called out a member and the thread turned nasty with some of the replies you and others posted and was deleted.
1 was deleted by Dean just a couple of days ago because it was a duplicate of this thread here
And finally, the thread you started with the title "Honeycomb Hickory" was deleted because it was asking for info for the wood chart and was posted in the regular penturning forum AFTER the sub-forum was created.  Here is the content of that opening message in case you forgot what you wrote:



> will need inf. for this blank, please.
> Follow this thread or input here, please.
> http://www.penturners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=67356


That link takes you directly to the input form for the wood chart.

Phillip, I have no problem with you wood chart project.  I do, however, have a REAL problem when you tell me I can not delete a thread of yours, then go on and claim that I deleted another thread of your either accidentally or maliciously.  Believe it or not, I READ every single post of every thread before I make the decision to delete.  I do not just go delete just for the heck of it.


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## kinggabby

phillywood said:


> *Close IAP wood chart and remove the forum.*
> Folks I need your vote to ask Jeff to close the wood chart and remove the forum, since giving it a seperate forum caused no visit or contribution to the chart. It became another additional forum that would take space on your screen. I would apprecaite your feed back.




I think it is funny that you ask for feed back and when it is given you  personally quote most if not all who gave feed back and attack them for  responding. I did not post on the wood info sheets because I for one am  still considered a newbie to this. and 98% of the info you were  requesting I did not know the answers to. So yes this is true that I did not contribute . But for you to respond to people for their honesty the why you have is uncalled for.


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## witz1976

phillywood said:


> witz1976 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I too think it was being pushed too far. It seemed that every time someone posted something new and unique there was a post asking to fill out the form to add it.
> I personally would rather try it myself, screw up and learn how to turn. Sure some tutorials are good, but we do not need it for everything.
> 
> Also, and this is just me, but that took some big brass ones to tell a moderator he cannot do his job. *This is why I am getting a little tired of this group. People not respecting other people*.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dan if you like to practice what you wrote above, then it makes me wonder why are you  on the IAP exactly, you seem to do everything on your own? then You don't need IAP's help.
> I don't think that anyone on IAP is twisting your arm to like this Group if you think that we don't respect each other. *you seem to have lots of growing up to do, buddy.*
Click to expand...


Thank you for proving my point, buddy.

Also I am not suggesting that I do not need help, rather I like to try it first on my own *THEN* seek help if I need it.  Because I like to learn, not follow directions.


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## Sylvanite

phillywood said:


> ...maybe the Wiki itslef is still young and needs alots of work and such an idea is not ready to go there yet.


Yes, the wiki is young and needs work.  Unfortunately, if we wait for it to mature before adding any content, then it never will.



> Then you all can develop the Wiki better and make it more consumer freindly...


This is a valid point.  I spent two evenings figuring out how to add a page to the wiki (in preparation for adding wood info pages).  The process was not intuitive.  In fact, it was very frustrating at times.  It is also unclear how to find information in the wiki.  These problems need to be addressed.

This project seems like a natural fit for the wiki, and a really good opportunity to grow it into a useful part of the IAP.  I'm willing to post wood info (time permitting), but would much rather do it in wiki form than forums/spreadsheet.

Regards,
Eric


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## alphageek

phillywood said:


> alphageek said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's also in the wiki ... Just need to start putting info into it... http://www.penturners.org/wiki/Raw_Materials
> 
> The wiki is still a great idea ... Just need to get enough info to be used more in there...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dean, You put this link on the post , I wonder did you click on it to see wher it takes you some of those names don't even have links. and the info.s are the same things that you can find in better details from other sources.
Click to expand...


Yes, thats true... But the joy of the wiki is that if there is something missing or a new page is needed, you can edit that page that I posted.. change or add the new text and link to a new page.   Then create the new page.   There is no limit to the number of pages that can be created in there.


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## Jon-wx5nco

kinggabby said:


> I don't know if you know but every time you post on that forum it shows up when someone clicks new post. So it is being seen. Some times people can't remember a specific wood or non- wood they have worked with. Some people have made hundreds of pens ( I know if I have made that many I could not remember them all )


 
I need to agree with kinggabby.  When I see something on the home page, I look at the post.  I don't think I ever go into the forum, unless its to look at the OKLAHOMA thread.   
I am in the process of saving ALL library material to my HD and to a USB drive just incase, if for some unknown reason, we wake up in the morning and the IAP site is gone.  Phill, your chart is something that will be saved.  Us deleting that thread and getting rid of the chart would be like getting rid of the perodic table - or - the dictionary.  My experience level is still extreemly low, but I will do my best to put my $Ø.Ø2 worth in
Jon


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## capcrnch

phillywood said:


> Rich, I am wondering we got you, Dean, Randy and so many others that are after this Wiki thing and trying to make it work. Deasn't that tell you that maybe the Wiki itslef is still young and needs alots of work and such an idea is not ready to go there yet. We can leave this alone for awhile and let everyone live their normal life and have the things go back to way they were before Phillip was here. Then you all can develop the Wiki better and make it more consumer freindly, and by then if I am around and kicking then we take it up again.



IMO, the wiki can be an incredibly powerful tool. And I make that comment based on personal experience.
It's not that the wiki is young, it's that in its current state, it's absolutely unpractical and just needs a kick in the butt and some organization.  Wiki's have been around for years and they've been incredibly successful. Once the IAP wiki has the pattern established and content added in a manner where people can add, read, explore and learn from it, it will be tremendous.
Keep in mind, I'm not trying to build the wiki around the wood chart, i'm just trying to use that as a major piece of the puzzle, (along with other major pieces).

You keep saying how the wood chart is for the people.. Well, you gave everyone a taste, badgered people to add, pushed it and pushed it.. And now you want to take it away and forget about it?
That's not fair to yourself, or any of the members here.


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## JeremyJ

Ditto Landon, don't blow things out or proportion, its been completed, its on the site.  If people use it great; its another great reference, but keep in mind thats what it is a reference not a novel on Oprah's top ten list.


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## maxwell_smart007

Thank you, Phillip, for making it clear that you're resigning from the project.  I had to read a billion replies to each individual poster, but I finally found that nugget of information in there.  

Phillip, you've only been on the IAP since May, so if you stick around for a while, you'll find that things usually run pretty smoothly around here.  We're generally not fans of rocking the boat, so to speak, and your methods for trying to finish the never-ending chart quickly were a touch overbearing.  I think if you give the Wiki a chance, you'll find that it will be the perfect place for the information you've gathered.    

Thanks for the effort, Philly.  We'll use your information and give it a place in the Wiki, where it deservedly belongs.  The Wiki, contrary to popular opinion on here, is not impossible to learn.  I'd suggest clicking on it, going to a random page (you can even click 'random page'), and seeing if you have any information to add!  

I, for one, am glad to see that this thread has run its course.  If the project is finished, as Philly has indicated, let's focus on making an effort to edit the Wiki!


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## PTownSubbie

maxwell_smart007 said:


> Thank you, Phillip, for making it clear that you're resigning from the project. I had to read a billion replies to each individual poster, but I finally found that nugget of information in there.
> 
> Phillip, you've only been on the IAP since May, so if you stick around for a while, you'll find that things usually run pretty smoothly around here. We're generally not fans of rocking the boat, so to speak, and your methods for trying to finish the never-ending chart quickly were a touch overbearing. I think if you give the Wiki a chance, you'll find that it will be the perfect place for the information you've gathered.
> 
> Thanks for the effort, Philly. We'll use your information and give it a place in the Wiki, where it deservedly belongs. The Wiki, contrary to popular opinion on here, is not impossible to learn. I'd suggest clicking on it, going to a random page (you can even click 'random page'), and seeing if you have any information to add!
> 
> I, for one, am glad to see that this thread has run its course. If the project is finished, as Philly has indicated, let's focus on making an effort to edit the Wiki!


 
Andrew,

Nice synopsis post.


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## rjwolfe3

I am going to refrain further from getting involved in this thread because I really am trying to be a better poster. I will say that I am really surprised by some of the people's attitudes (this is directed at people other then Phil) on this thread and I will leave it at that.

Phil, I will gladly take your project up if you would like. I think it is a valuable contribution.


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## phillywood

maxwell_smart007 said:


> Thank you, Phillip, for making it clear that you're resigning from the project. I had to read a billion replies to each individual poster, but I finally found that nugget of information in there.
> 
> Phillip, you've only been on the IAP since May, so if you stick around for a while, you'll find that things usually run pretty smoothly around here. We're generally not fans of rocking the boat, so to speak, and your methods for trying to finish the never-ending chart quickly were a touch overbearing. I think if you give the Wiki a chance, you'll find that it will be the perfect place for the information you've gathered.
> 
> Thanks for the effort, Philly. We'll use your information and give it a place in the Wiki, where it deservedly belongs. The Wiki, contrary to popular opinion on here, is not impossible to learn. I'd suggest clicking on it, going to a random page (you can even click 'random page'), and seeing if you have any information to add!
> 
> I, for one, am glad to see that this thread has run its course. If the project is finished, as Philly has indicated, let's focus on making an effort to edit the Wiki!


 
Andrew,
I am not resigning of the project. I am just going to lay off it for a while and stop making enemies to those who seem to have a problem with it and think this is being shoved down their throat. I will not put any new threads asking for any info. on any woods. Those threads are making me look bad and annoyance, which I don't want to be.
In addition, members throats will get a break from it all too. I'll wait until the members who are more savvy in comp. can fix the Wiki or make it more user friendly then I'll pick up where I left off. and, transfer the info. into the wiki. then we go from there.
Right now this is how the process works:
I create a thread and ask for a name of a wood that chart needs the info for by typing some sentences asking that, then I include a template of each corresponding material which was created in MS word. the respondent then has to click on the template and download it to his comp. open it and fill out the proper columns. then save the file and then create a reply post and then go to advance feature and upload that newly filled out file into the post and onto the IAP. I then receive it then have to open the file and correct the fonts and some other things and add the proper signs to the statements and then transfer that to the chart put it under the new alphabetical listing and put the info in the proper place. so this takes some time. and the chart file itself has grown and now needs purchasing of a new program for me to zip the file and send it to Jeff so he can upload it to the IAP server for the other members to see.

Ok, I don't mind doing this, but the bickering and all the other stuff taking up my time too, then I noticed that I have to ask the members if they want to add their info which they entered under the SOYP to the chart. When you send out PMs and get no response then that tells you something is wrong. So, before this gets further out of hands I stop it while I got my respect and *asked that ONLY the forum to be closed so there are no new posts. And the Current chart transferred to the Library and left there. When Wiki creator can iron out the problems with it that it is easier to navigate and enter new info. then we will go back and start adding to the chart as if any one wishes to do so and there would be no more shoving.*
All that said, i am not a quitter and won't become someone who you guys said that gave up on this project. furthermore won't make an AZZ out of myself.  If some one wants to do all that I just described by all means let me know and I will send you the file and you take it from there. 
But, when it goes into the WiKi, then there would be no finger pointing anymore.

"I, for one, am glad to see that this thread has run its course. If the project is finished, as Philly has indicated, let's focus on making an effort to edit the Wiki"
Andrew, I have no idea where you got this idea from. I didn't say the project was finished, neither wanted it to finish and will never finish. I am just trying to keep the quibble to its minimum.  

Thank you all for your interest and comments, maybe that we can cap this off and every one can go back to before May when a nutcase like me came around and changed the "*generally not fans of rocking the boat, so to speak, and your methods for trying to finish the never-ending chart quickly were a touch overbearing"*
Now life would be better on IAP.
**


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## ROOKIETURNER

I have a headache from reading this thread. You would think it was a therapy session, with people laying on the couch complaining that their mommy didn't hug them enough.

Philly, all I can say is that you did post that you were done and walking away, not that you were just taking a break. My opinion is that you are taking this thing way too personal. I will leave it at that...yea right.

To find something on wiki, all one needs to do is use the search tool. Once the information is populated it will be awesome. I have little to nothing to contribute to the information. I have only been turning for about a year. I also believe that there are only a few that can really contribute good solid information to the chart, and asking them to stop their lives and live up to your expectation is unrealistic and unfair.

I have also been unfair to the MODS...well at the time there was only one...sorry again Curtis! So I am speaking from experience, try not to tick them off, try not to insult their intelligence and I would think again before getting your facts mixed up so bad. Seems Curtis has you by the, ahem...., facts.

IMO you should apologize to Curtis for accusing him of wrong doing. You should lay off the chart for awhile and let things settle. And try to keep your posts down in size. I get half way through a long post and fall asleep, lose my train of thought or begin to think about what I am going to eat for breakfast tomorrow.

That and $1.00 will get you two apples pies at McDonald's.

Rob


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## phillywood

ROOKIETURNER said:


> I have a headache from reading this thread. You would think it was a therapy session, with people laying on the couch complaining that their mommy didn't hug them enough.
> 
> Philly, all I can say is that you did post that you were done and walking away, not that you were just taking a break. My opinion is that you are taking this thing way too personal. I will leave it at that...yea right.
> 
> To find something on wiki, all one needs to do is use the search tool. Once the information is populated it will be awesome. I have little to nothing to contribute to the information. I have only been turning for about a year. I also believe that there are only a few that can really contribute good solid information to the chart, and asking them to stop their lives and live up to your expectation is unrealistic and unfair.
> 
> I have also been unfair to the MODS...well at the time there was only one...sorry again Curtis! So I am speaking from experience, try not to tick them off, try not to insult their intelligence and I would think again before getting your facts mixed up so bad. Seems Curtis has you by the, ahem...., facts.
> 
> IMO you should apologize to Curtis for accusing him of wrong doing. You should lay off the chart for awhile and let things settle. And try to keep your posts down in size. I get half way through a long post and fall asleep, lose my train of thought or begin to think about what I am going to eat for breakfast tomorrow.
> 
> That and $1.00 will get you two apples pies at McDonald's.
> 
> Rob


Rob, Thanks for the laugh man I needed it. I was just trying to spare everyone from all this. didn't mena to get you hungry. It was a session. :biggrin:


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## CSue

Phillywood,
I think you are a tad impatient at times.  
For me, as an example, I've been aware of the new set up anf forum for the woods and alternatives chart and work there.  I've only had time to briefly click on the link on the home page and follow it to the forum. I am looking forward to the day I will have some time to go through it all and make some positive contribution.  And I am grateful for Jeff setting it u[ in it's own forum.

The fact that its been there barely a few weeks and "no one's been there" doesn't necessarily reflect on whether the change is good or bad.  It does say that many IAP members are kind of swamped with other things.

With the flooding on the east coast, the horrendous heat on the pacific coast, school starting, turners preparing for holiday orders and all, give it some time.


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## capcrnch

Phil, just to throw this up as an idea
Rather than creating a new post each time you need a wood entry for the chart, create one thread and list all the species you're missing in the first post.
Then you can continually edit that first post as entries are made, or new species are thought of.


----------



## snyiper

Rich I think that is a excellent idea. We can fill it out as we do these woods who knows someone may see the list and say Hey Ill try that one.


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## rjwolfe3

I f you'll remember that is how Phil started and it got really long really fast. So he went with the individual posts.




capcrnch said:


> Phil, just to throw this up as an idea
> Rather than creating a new post each time you need a wood entry for the chart, create one thread and list all the species you're missing in the first post.
> Then you can continually edit that first post as entries are made, or new species are thought of.





snyiper said:


> Rich I think that is a excellent idea. We can fill it out as we do these woods who knows someone may see the list and say Hey Ill try that one.


----------



## phillywood

capcrnch said:


> Phil, just to throw this up as an idea
> Rather than creating a new post each time you need a wood entry for the chart, create one thread and list all the species you're missing in the first post.
> Then you can continually edit that first post as entries are made, or new species are thought of.


Your answer is here:http://www.penturners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=67224

 I did, but the thread got pushed to page 2 depending on your individual setting on your comp. I may have to ask Curtis to put it as a sticky so it would be on the first post on the sub forum so it won't get pushed to the bottom.
On the other hands, some members sent their chart input to me in an email so you guys will have to see what's the last update date on the post I already tried to do that.

I see what I can do. I am limited as what I can do just like any other members, I can not even upload the update to the IAP I have to do it through Jeff, and now the file is too big. I made some new changes that made it even better to navigate through the info. but now it's about 23MB. We have to figure out a way that you guys can can enter on your own then some one who manges the chart will check it at the end of the day to keep every entry consistent. We have to see. but, over all if we can make it that you guys can enter when you want to then you won't see my threads asking for info. input.


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## OLDMAN5050

I'm glad this is OVER. nuff said


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## alphageek

phillywood said:


> capcrnch said:
> 
> 
> 
> Phil, just to throw this up as an idea
> Rather than creating a new post each time you need a wood entry for the chart, create one thread and list all the species you're missing in the first post.
> Then you can continually edit that first post as entries are made, or new species are thought of.
> 
> 
> 
> Your answer is here:http://www.penturners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=67224
> 
> I did, but the thread got pushed to page 2 depending on your individual setting on your comp. I may have to ask Curtis to put it as a sticky so it would be on the first post on the sub forum so it won't get pushed to the bottom.
> On the other hands, some members sent their chart input to me in an email so you guys will have to see what's the last update date on the post I already tried to do that.
> 
> I see what I can do. I am limited as what I can do just like any other members, I can not even upload the update to the IAP I have to do it through Jeff, and now the file is too big. I made some new changes that made it even better to navigate through the info. but now it's about 23MB. We have to figure out a way that you guys can can enter on your own then some one who manges the chart will check it at the end of the day to keep every entry consistent. We have to see. but, over all if we can make it that you guys can enter when you want to then you won't see my threads asking for info. input.
Click to expand...


I temporarily made this sticky so it could be found easier.  It made sense, to me... but I need to pass it past Curtis and/or Jeff to see if it makes sense to stay there.    If they agree that it makes sense, then it will stay.. otherwise it will have to come back off as I'm still new at this.

Dean


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## DurocShark

I didn't vote in the poll. I won't be voting in the poll. I don't care about the poll. In fact, I stopped reading at page 4. 

Sorry, Phil, but it seems like I've seen many of these threads over the past few months and they're kind of a turn off.

I cheer what you've accomplished. I sense that you are way more emotional about this than I would be or am comfortable with. My advice would be to cool off. Instead of calling out the mods, or berating folks for having opinions contrary to yours, you could really gain traction by refining the presentation of the information. The wiki is an excellent idea (I'm a fan of wikis, having admin'd many over the years). The basic interface of the wiki is only the plating on the nib. There are many more things that can be accomplished if you take the time to learn. 

Judging by your tenacity so far, I believe you could really take the materials index to amazing levels.


----------



## MesquiteMan

alphageek said:


> I temporarily made this sticky so it could be found easier.  It made sense, to me... but I need to pass it past Curtis and/or Jeff to see if it makes sense to stay there.    If they agree that it makes sense, then it will stay.. otherwise it will have to come back off as I'm still new at this.
> 
> Dean



Good job, Dean!


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## phillywood

Thank you Curtis.
BTW, last night I tried playing in the Wiki and i clicked on help template and for the sake of trying I cut and pasted the chart template and I manged to save it and WIKI took the info and saved it. Now, Can't figure out where it went and how to tell others to find it and use it to input info.
any suggestions?


----------

