# Keeping the Sierra from untwisting



## GouletPens (Feb 17, 2009)

I've had a couple of customers complain to me about the way the Sierra twist pen comes untwisted when trying to retract the refill. I'm trying to figure out the best way to keep the threads tightly locked, while still allowing them to untwist and change the refill when necessary. I'm thinking some kind of rubber/silicone/something to put on the threads so they won't be so likely to come undone when in normal use. Has anyone else had this problem and what was your solution?


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## DCBluesman (Feb 17, 2009)

Tighten and loosen with a pair of pliars.


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## Dario (Feb 17, 2009)

Try this? 

http://www.loctiteproducts.com/products/detail.asp?catid=10&subid=48&plid=153


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## GouletPens (Feb 17, 2009)

Are these things that would last after the nib is removed and then again replaced? I'm trying to think about the customer down the road, that the Sierra will stay together without them having to do anything additional to the pen like reapplying the threadlock or using tools to ratchet it down....ideally something that I could do that would still allow the pen to be unscrewed many many times as desired, but not unintentionally like in normal twisting for retracting and exposing the refill.


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## DCBluesman (Feb 17, 2009)

No, but as infrequently as a Parker refill has to be replaced, is it really asking too much for a consumer to tighten the transmission?


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## bitshird (Feb 17, 2009)

Brian, I've been doing mine as Lou suggested, But I remember my x's uncle was an Optician, his method for keeping screws from coming out of the temple pieces on eyeglasses was to just a tiny dab of school paste, My fear of telling a customer to use a pair of pliers to loosen or tighten the transmission to change the refill is this.
 If they were clumsy enough to not be able to tell they were turning the body so much as to loosen the transmission from the nib, Imagine what they could do with a a pair of vise grips, I only use a very small pair of channel lock pliers about 3 inches long.
 You know they aren't going to spend the money for a tool that is adequate for a delicate job. Then your going to get to replace a transmission which aren't available with out the kit.


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## GouletPens (Feb 17, 2009)

Keeping in mind, too, that the customer is not going to be "assembling" their pen back when they change their refills. They are just going to be screwing it together, with only the exterior, finished parts exposed, unlike us when we assemble them. I'll try the school paste. 

To answer the question about the ink replacement, they actually replace it often enough to be an issue. I replace my refills with gel rollerballs which write nicely but run out sooner. Especially when someone loves their pen and they begin to use it exclusively, it runs out after a couple of months, if not sooner. My father in law loves his pen and writes with it exclusively, and he has to buy his refills in pairs because he blows through them so fast. This has also led to my previous threads about smooth writing gel rollerball or pressurized ballpoint refills that fit the Parker style that last longer than Parker brand gel rollerballs, which is what I'm using now. I haven't found a good solution there yet. 

But I digress. I looked up some old posts about Baron caps coming undone and that led me to the idea of an o-ring, that would sort of "lock" down the nib section to the twist mechanism in the Sierra. It would have to be one small, thin o-ring, so I think a Home Depot trip is in my near future.


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## GouletPens (Feb 17, 2009)

Bitshird, you mean school paste as in white Elmer's glue?


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## sbell111 (Feb 17, 2009)




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## DCBluesman (Feb 17, 2009)

In my (never) humble opinion, this is the proper way to change the refill on a Sierra.  Thanks to Jim (jrc) for the video.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9OSxFaVnuU


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## bitshird (Feb 17, 2009)

Yes, but the white Elmers glue is a bit harder to get it to let go, also the school paste is a little easier to clean off the threads next time around, My only complaint about the Sierras has been having 5 or 6 returned  due to customers "unscrewups" and regardless it seems to leave a bad impression with the customer even when you show them how NOT to do it.


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## gwilki (Feb 17, 2009)

I had two customers unscrew their's get it apart, then when they put the new refill in they pushed the transmission up into the body so far that it wouldn't thread onto the connector any more. I had to pull the transmission out with small needle nose pliers. Now, I CA the transmission into the barrel. To change the refill, the client simply retracts the refill and keeps turning. The transmission stays in the barrel and the whole assembly screws off the lower body.


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## GouletPens (Feb 17, 2009)

DCBluesman said:


> In my (never) humble opinion, this is the proper way to change the refill on a Sierra. Thanks to Jim (jrc) for the video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9OSxFaVnuU


 I agree this is an effective method, but honestly it's not realistic to have our customers use pliers for any purpose on their pen. I'm hoping we can come up with something that's really foolproof, that requires no tools (Mont Blanc doesn't tell their customers to use pliers to change their refills, why should we?).


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## GouletPens (Feb 17, 2009)

gwilki said:


> I had two customers unscrew their's get it apart, then when they put the new refill in they pushed the transmission up into the body so far that it wouldn't thread onto the connector any more. I had to pull the transmission out with small needle nose pliers. Now, I CA the transmission into the barrel. To change the refill, the client simply retracts the refill and keeps turning. The transmission stays in the barrel and the whole assembly screws off the lower body.


 Part of the reason I'm really concerned about this is that I'm expanding into wholesale/consignment selling where I won't necessarily have the ability to 'show' the customer anything. It won't be like a craft show where I can show them what I'm talking about. I really need a solution that falls in line with logic and simple pen use. I'm thinking o-ring is the way to go. Any experience with o-rings anyone?


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## bitshird (Feb 17, 2009)

DCBluesman said:


> In my (never) humble opinion, this is the proper way to change the refill on a Sierra.  Thanks to Jim (jrc) for the video.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9OSxFaVnuU



I agree, but how do you explain to the customer not to crush the brass threaded area? or grab the tranny near the top. For us it's not a problem, for a Doctor or Surgeon there again not really an expected problem, but there are others that don't have a delicate sense of touch. 
Pleas don't think I'm taking an argumentative position I'm not, I'm just seeing what wisdom you could impart.


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## DCBluesman (Feb 17, 2009)

Things that screw on and off are going to screw on...and off.  Glue or loctite will hold the threads until you replace the refill, then you will need a fresh application.  Would you rather have your customer hand- or even pliars-tighten the transmission (with help from a You Tube video) or would you rather they start messing with glue near the transmission.  At some point, the customer has to learn something.  Your other choice is to get away from twist pens.


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## GouletPens (Feb 17, 2009)

DCBluesman said:


> Things that screw on and off are going to screw on...and off. Glue or loctite will hold the threads until you replace the refill, then you will need a fresh application. Would you rather have your customer hand- or even pliars-tighten the transmission (with help from a You Tube video) or would you rather they start messing with glue near the transmission. At some point, the customer has to learn something. Your other choice is to get away from twist pens.


 There are plenty of other brands (Cross, Mont Blanc, Waterman, etc) that have twist pens, what do they do? I don't own any of these other brand name pens, but how do they make it work without glue or pliers?


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## DCBluesman (Feb 17, 2009)

Brian -  First, neither my clients nor I have problems with Sierras coming apart in normal daily use and I've sold a boatload of them.  As for Montblanc and the others, I suspect they use threading that has a different profile which "locks" better...probably square threads.  We do not have that option.


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## GouletPens (Feb 17, 2009)

DCBluesman said:


> Brian - First, neither my clients nor I have problems with Sierras coming apart in normal daily use and I've sold a boatload of them. As for Montblanc and the others, I suspect they use threading that has a different profile which "locks" better...probably square threads. We do not have that option.


I've also sold a boatload of them but a couple my customers have complained. It's not how I give them the pen, but it's when they go to take out the refill (often right away, to see what it looks like) and they screw it back together themselves but don't twist it hard enough.

A potentially huge consignor for my pens had the untwisting thing happen to them and they don't want to carry the Sierra style anymore unless I can come up with a more foolproof solution than telling them "they need to tighten it more". The Sierra is a very popular style and more importantly is easy to make so I have to come up with a good solution, and fast!!


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## DCBluesman (Feb 17, 2009)

Berea is not going to change the threads for you.  If Loctite or pliers don't work for you, you're screwed.


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## pentex (Feb 17, 2009)

One person on here uses a small amount of ca on the top part of the transmission and pushes it up into the blank. Then the only way to change the refill is to unscrew the top from the bottom. I tried this and it seems to work fine. You just cannot pull it apart, you have to unscrew it. Hope this makes sense.


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## Rudy Vey (Feb 17, 2009)

Alternative would be to stay away for the twist Sierras and make only clickers
Never had this problem, but I hand tighten the tranny as much as I can , and explain the whole changing procedure to my customers - never would tell them to use a pair of pliers, though!


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## bitshird (Feb 17, 2009)

Or use the Elegant Beauty, the transmission can't come off, it's in the top of the pen, it's similar in style, a bit shorter and a wee bit smaller in diameter, I'm not referring to the Elegant Beauty Sierra but the one from Lau Lau woods or from Anthony at the Golden Nib, Plus they don't have junk plating's just, TI gold or black.


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## helgi (Feb 17, 2009)

*sierra*

Hi:
How about a little dab of clear nail polish.
Helgi.


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## galoot_loves_tools (Feb 17, 2009)

gwilki said:


> I had two customers unscrew their's get it apart, then when they put the new refill in they pushed the transmission up into the body so far that it wouldn't thread onto the connector any more. I had to pull the transmission out with small needle nose pliers. Now, I CA the transmission into the barrel. To change the refill, the client simply retracts the refill and keeps turning. The transmission stays in the barrel and the whole assembly screws off the lower body.



That is what I do, glue the finial to the upper end of the transmission when I press it on. Then, just twist the body to the stop after the refill retracts and twist a bit more to unscrew the transmission coupler from the nib. I started doing this when I realized that you couldn't really tighten the threads enough with the finial slipping on the transmission.


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## galoot_loves_tools (Feb 17, 2009)

pentex said:


> One person on here uses a small amount of ca on the top part of the transmission and pushes it up into the blank. Then the only way to change the refill is to unscrew the top from the bottom. I tried this and it seems to work fine. You just cannot pull it apart, you have to unscrew it. Hope this makes sense.



Exactly. When I  had my first Sierra finial slip on the transmission, I assumed that it was a sloppy fit and should work like the Carbara/Atlas pens where the only way to get the refill out is to unscrew the nib from the body. So I glued the finial to the transmission during assembly. Works fine, none of this messing around with pulling the pen apart.


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## DCBluesman (Feb 17, 2009)

Some of you are answering the wrong question.  From the original post:



> I've had a couple of customers complain to me about the way the Sierra twist pen comes untwisted when trying to retract the refill. I'm trying to figure out the best way to keep the threads tightly locked, while still allowing them to untwist and change the refill when necessary. I'm thinking some kind of rubber/silicone/something to put on the threads so they won't be so likely to come undone when in normal use.


 
The problem is loose threads that let the top and bottom separate.


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## GouletPens (Feb 17, 2009)

DCBluesman said:


> Some of you are answering the wrong question. From the original post:
> 
> 
> 
> The problem is loose threads that let the top and bottom separate.


 Lou, you're right. I think gluing the mechanism to the finial will help (allowing someone to really give it a good twist to lock in place), but the potential for the same problem is still there. I thought long and hard and chased around to several different stores tonight trying to find a good solution. I like the idea of some sort of o-ring to help keep it in place, but they're hard to find that small. I thought maybe a rubber band like you would have for braces might work, but apparently only orthodontists carry them. I'll check with them tomorrow. The other alternative would be an actual rubber o-ring, but even online I'm having a hard time finding one in the right dimensions. I'll update as I find them.....:bulgy-eyes:


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## jttheclockman (Feb 17, 2009)

I think YO YO Spin had a source for small washers. Check with him. I think maybe here. http://allorings.com/cgi-bin/Catalo...tx&hdr=Order+Buna-N+O-Rings&displayNumber=369


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## GouletPens (Feb 18, 2009)

jttheclockman said:


> I think YO YO Spin had a source for small washers. Check with him. I think maybe here. http://allorings.com/cgi-bin/Catalo...tx&hdr=Order+Buna-N+O-Rings&displayNumber=369


 No way!! I actually came across this site in my own searching not but one hour ago.....I found the right size but I don't know if the o-ring will be too thick...I was looking at -011 which is 7.65±0.13mm internal diameter and 1.78±0.08mm thickness. I guess one way to find out is to go ahead and order them!


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## Blind_Squirrel (Feb 18, 2009)

GouletPens said:


> I'm hoping we can come up with something that's really foolproof



Have the customer bring the pen back to you to replace the refill.


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## RichAldrich (Feb 18, 2009)

On O rings.  I found a great selection of O rings at Gilroy's Hardware.  They are on the web.  26 locations in Michigan and 1 in Peachtree City Ga.  5 miles from my house.  Ace Hardware had a good selection as well.

Rich Aldrich


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## Mudder (Feb 18, 2009)

GouletPens said:


> I agree this is an effective method, but honestly it's not realistic to have our customers use pliers for any purpose on their pen. I'm hoping we can come up with something that's really foolproof, that requires no tools (Mont Blanc doesn't tell their customers to use pliers to change their refills, why should we?).



I wrap a rubber band around the transmission to give me better grip and I tell all my customers to do the same. I guess that I sell to a different crowd because I've never had one returned for that reason.


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## GouletPens (Feb 18, 2009)

RichAldrich said:


> On O rings. I found a great selection of O rings at Gilroy's Hardware. They are on the web. 26 locations in Michigan and 1 in Peachtree City Ga. 5 miles from my house. Ace Hardware had a good selection as well.
> 
> Rich Aldrich


 I just checked Gilroy's online and they only have bulk plumber's packs of orings. They don't have stores here in VA. I'll check Ace's though, as well as Advance Auto and Auto Zone, we'll see what happens.


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## GouletPens (Feb 18, 2009)

Mudder said:


> I wrap a rubber band around the transmission to give me better grip and I tell all my customers to do the same. I guess that I sell to a different crowd because I've never had one returned for that reason.


 I'm having a hard time visualizing what you're talking about here. Can you elaborate?


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## Rudy Vey (Feb 18, 2009)

Originally Posted by *Mudder* 

 
_I wrap a rubber band around the transmission to give me better grip and I tell all my customers to do the same. I guess that I sell to a different crowd because I've never had one returned for that reason._
 			 		 	 	  "I'm having a hard time visualizing what you're talking about here. Can you elaborate? 		  		  		                  		 		 			 				__________________"

What Scott meant was that he wraps a rubber band around the transmission to get a better grip for tightening the transmission to the lower (nib end) of the Sierra pen. And that he sells his pen (like I) to a different crowd than you because we have no customer complaints that the pens come un-done - this btw has also never happened to my or my wife's personal Sierras.


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## Chuck Key (Feb 18, 2009)

You can get O Rings at Lowes in the faucet repair section.


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## JerryS (Apr 30, 2009)

Any updates on the fix for this ?


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## GouletPens (May 1, 2009)

Sure! Well, I couldn't find an o-ring small enough to work...I found one small enough to fit on the transmission, but the thickness of the actual o-ring was too thick and caused problems. I ended up doing a two-fold solution, though I'm still not very satisfied with it. I'm gluing the top of the transmission into the cap of the pen, which will allow you, when you twist the pen, to really ratchet it down to tighten it up. Also, I'm putting a thin bead of epoxy at the base of the threads on the transmission, to give some 'grab' when the transmission closes down to the nib section. It's not a great solution and it takes a bit of time, but it works for now. Anyone have any better ideas?!:neutral:


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## TomW (May 1, 2009)

Brian,

I was actually out in the shop with my o ring assortment this morning, and came to the same conclusion.  I was thinking about a ring cut from a sheet of silicone instead of an o ring, but then remembered they sell these to HELP you take a nova chuck loose from a lathe spindle.

I sense a perfectly sized lock washer would work, so I guess one could scratch some matching grooves between the nib and transmission, but that would be subject to lots of patience and luck.

Tom


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## Misterturner (May 1, 2009)

Brian,

I had this happen to me one of the first time's I made one of these (I wasn't thinking, but easily got it out with needle nose pliers), so I can imagine it being a problem when a customer has the same experience.  If it happened to anyone or worse, one of us, it can happen again, so best to anticipate that. I applaud you for trying to find a way to prevent it from happening.  

I just read through this thread and thought about it for a few seconds.  It seems to me that the real problem here is the fact that there is RESERVE space in the finial.  How about measuring that space and turning a wood (or maybe acrylic would be a better idea) plug that you can glue inside.  With it in place, no one should be able to shove the mechanism up higher than we'd like.  

Jason


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## bkersten (May 1, 2009)

This has had me looking at options/solutions on mine as well for a long time. I even had on the instruction/care card to turn the clip end away from you as you look at it to your right, and pull to seperate at the same time - then reassemble.  Unless I'm missing something on the mechanics end here, I think Jason may have solved this as good we'll get unless there is a major change to the manufacturing process.  Even if the buyer untwists it they will still be able to reattach it without any probing for it.  Fool/tamper proof, well, I'll not go that far because somewhere out there is Murphys law, something will happen totally unforseen again.  I know I'm going to give it a try, maybe another step, but, maybe that personal visit of "somethng happened here" wil not surface again.  Whoever gets the measurement first, how about posting a figure.  

Bob


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## Misterturner (May 1, 2009)

I thought about posting a measurement with my first reply, but then thought better of it.  It has to be pretty precise and there are so many Sierra's/Vistas/Elegant this and that's/Wall Streets/Gatsbys/Tropical somethingorothers that one size may not fit all (length OR diameter) and production tolerances might wreak further havoc.

Another consideration is that because of this reserve space in the cap, the exact barrel length can be determined by the individual penturner (within reason) when making one of these pens.  I know that I have that flexibility whenever I make one of these (so let my hair down) and don’t fret over a little bit of the end of the blank getting trimmed away during that part of the process.  Its actually a joy to make one of these, as other pens are less forgiving, and you end up with too much of the cartridge tip protruding out the nib or something else is affected if the barrel ended up any shorter than the size of the original tube.  

So, if anyone is going to try this method, they'll have to incorporate their final barrel length into the calculation before measuring the right plug length - if it ends up being shorter than the length of the tube that came with the kit, then the plug should be that much shorter as well.


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