# Whadaya think?? Scrimshaw



## ed4copies

Here's the question:

What constitutes "scrimshaw"?

I have several pens I turned from alternative ivory. THEN, I sent them to Ken to have them engraved with a pattern (ship and other). In some cases, he also engraved the same on the box. 

I am FREQUENTLY asked if this is "scrimshaw". I reply that it is laser engraved, I do not have the talent to freehand that detail. So ends the conversation and the pen remains MINE -- NOT my GOAL!!!

So, is laser engraving a version of "scrimshaw"?? Do we call it "automated scrimshaw"??

I treasure my honesty, so what's an HONEST answer that will not lose the sale???


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## marcruby

If you're losing a sale because it's laser engraved then your customers are telling you it ain't scrimshaw, unfortunately.  I think it's better to be up front rather than have a pen come back because they figured out it was done by a laser.  Scrimshaw has an innate value because it is manually done and can command premium prices.

I'd talk to them about the labor and process of laser engraving, emphasize that the work is in limited editions.  You might even mention that a true scrimshaw pen would be about 5 times as expensive, if not more.

Or, get a couple of engraving burins (I think that's what they're called) and go nuts.

Marc


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## turned_for_good

I wouldn't technically call it scrimshaw, but I tend to be a traditionalist on things like this.  I think a good opinion to seek on this would be to ask Ken what his opinion is about it.  Does he do scrimshaw/ laser art, or does he just do laser art.


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## Sylvanite

I do laser engraving on a variety of materials.  I call it laser engraving, not scrimshaw, pyrography, nor scrollwork - because it isn't.


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## DCBluesman

I'm of the opinion that laser-engraved alternate ivory can be called scrimshaw just as much as the traditional etched whalebone can.  

Scrimshaw *originally* referred to the shipboard practice of *sailors creating common tools from whale bones*.  Only later was the word scrimshaw used to refer to the works of art created by these whalers in their spare time.  Over time, the meaning has slid further to include *engraving on ivory or bone*.  (Ivory was not commonly used in 19th century scrimshaw.)

While some scrimshanders (makers of this artwork) often acquire pre-ban, legal ivory or bone for their art, scrimshaw is highly susceptible to the use of contraband. Now, the Endangered Species Act and international conventions restrict the harvest and sale of ivory and bone to try to reverse the scarcity of ivory-bearing animals.  

Using alternate ivory is "green" and laser engraving is etching.  Laser-engraved alternate ivory is scrimshaw.

That's my story and my customers accept it.


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## ed4copies

Lou,

Could you send me a few of your customers, please.

THANKS!!!!


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## marcruby

Could rubber stampings be called calligraphy?


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## OKLAHOMAN

As some of you know I had Ken Engrave an antler pen I called "Trail of Tears" and last night I posted another antler Emperor I said was a scrimshawed feather. To set the record straight the pen last night IS SCRIMSHAW done by a very well know scrimshaw artist Jessie Ghere Feather and the person who bought the engraved pen knows it was engraved and whoever buys the scrimshaw pen will know who did the scrimshaw. But I do agree with Lou that any type of scratching be it by machine or hand tool could be called scrimshaw.
From the Websters New World Dictionary:
scrim-shaw: 1. carving done on shells, bone, ivory, etc 2. an article or articles so made.


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## Chasper

If the art is done with a scrimshaw look and it is on something that looks like bone or ivory, then it is scrimshaw.  I've sold lots of "scrimshaw" on small pieces of mammoth tusk.  I called it scrimshaw and no one every pointed out that old time sailors did not have access to ancient mammoth tusks.

What is "scrimshaw look?"  Art that is created with lots of small lines or scratches that collectively make up an illustration.  The lines are all different widths, depths and legnths.  Computer generated art with clean lines, shaded areas and broad dark backgrounds is not scrimshaw, but scrimshaw look art that is applied with a computer driven laser engraver is still scrimshaw.


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## ed4copies

EDITORIAL:

We (the penmaking community) determine the "trade-specific lingo".  I opened this topic because I would LIKE to believe this is a TYPE of scrimshaw.  NOW, what WE agree to call it, determines what it is called!!

My point was NOT to degrade ANY pens that have been done in ANY style.  I do not have the talent to hand-engrave.  HOWEVER, the pens that Ken, Dawn and I collaborate to produce ARE REPRESENTATIVE of the scrimshaw process or the prospective customer would not be ASKING the question!!  So, call it "affordable scrimshaw" or "Green scrimshaw" (No ivory taken from animals) or whatever.  But, let's put an honest, yet market-pleasing name on it!!!

Suggestions encouraged!
Comments encouraged- the above is opinion, not fact- you are allowed to have one that differs from mine and we can still be friends!!!!! (I miss Eagle)


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## marcruby

How about something like 'fine engraving by Kallenshaan Woods' or something like that.  And in tiny print say 'limited to xx copies'  Sounds nice and snooty to me.  



ed4copies said:


> But, let's put an honest, yet market-pleasing name on it!!!
> Suggestions encouraged!


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## rincewind03060

Scrimshaw is a traditional folk art and is by definition hand engraved (etched?).
Calling laser engraving (etching?) "scrimshaw" is like calling something you printed on an ink jet a "watercolor".

Tell them that this is limited edition (or one-of-a-kind) laser art in the scrimshaw style.

Personally, I think most scrimshaw looks crude and would much prefer laser art. But I've been called a Philistine before this.


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## GoodTurns

how about scamshaw?   ducks, runs for cover, giggling.....


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## ed4copies

GoodTurns said:


> how about scamshaw? ducks, runs for cover, giggling.....


 

The "return of the bird!!"

Thanks, I needed that today!!


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## wdcav1952

The laptop I have here in Hawaii is slow so I only checked dictionary.com and websters online.  Neither source mandates hand done to qualify as scrimshaw.  If you want to get totally technical, scrimshaw is impossible today as I would imagine all of the 19th century whalers have died out.

I would consider your product to be "laser enhanced scrimshaw."  You selected and/or designed the scrimshaw pattern and had it enhanced with a laser engraving technique.

BTW, Ed, if Eagle was still alive you would have permanently ringing ears on this subject!!!!!!:biggrin:


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## ed4copies

Cav,

I would have a "permanently ringing" PHONE!!!!!

Dawn never did learn to ignore it!

Yeah, he'd a had a few words, but we DID have this discussion and STAYED FRIENDS! as you know!


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## jskeen

I'll offer up the facts first then the opinion.  From Webster's new universal unabridged dictionary, cw1989;

scrimshaw: 1. a carved or engraved article, esp. of whale ivory, whalebone, walrus tusks, and the like, made by whalemen as a leisure occupation.  2.  such articles or work collectively.  3.  The art or technique of carving or engraving whale ivory, whalebone, walrus tusks, ect. 4. to produce scrimshaw  5. to carve or engrave (whale ivory or whalebone) into scrimshaw


Article 1 makes no distinction between work engraved with a sailmakers needle and rubbed with squid ink, or work engraved by a cnc laser, but does specify that it be done by a whaler in his spare time.  (this I think can fairly be ignored, working whalers being in chronic short supply)  It also gives enough latitude in material {e.g. "and the like"} to include modern alternative ivory.  

I would have no problem describing a modern laser engraved alt ivory pen as "scrimshaw". however you would need to be prepared to encounter fairly vociferous objections to the practice from anyone involved in the sale or preparation of "hand etched" scrimshaw.  Prepared responses to these objections can range from "I'm sorry that we choose to disagree on this subject" to "yeah, well screw you and the horse you rode in on"  depending on your mood at the moment.


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## ed4copies

James, 

Just one question: "How good looking IS the horse he rode in on???"


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## laserturner

Hi to all,  
I do not and never will refer to my laser engraving on antler, alternate ivory or any other natural or man made material as scrimschaw work. I've refered to it as simulated schrimshaw or laser engraving with a scrimshaw look. I also don't refer to the ability to transfer an image from a computer to a laser engraver and then to a pen surface as art. I look at it as technology. Penmakers like Grayson Tighe have used scrimshanders like Bob Hergert (check out his website to see some phenominal work at www.scrimshander.com) to make some amazing pens. In my opinion, what I do with a laser engraver doesn't come close to true scrimshaw work and I would hope that the people who use my services for engraving their pens would promote them as what they are; laser engraved pens.


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## ed4copies

As the Brits would say, "Thanks for that, Ken!!"

However, pens with the lettering "PRO-COPY, INC" are "laser engraved pens".  The work you do, Ken, is far more professional.  So, to call it by the same name is also misleading.  

As an "industry" we need to establish a "standard terminology" for this process, recognizing YOUR expertise is certainly greater than the "one line of type for $5" as well as the hand-craftsmanship of the "base pen".

So, let's continue the conversation, please.


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## marcruby

Oh Wow!  What I would give to have Tighe's work on on of my pens.  That's to die for...

Marc


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## gketell

Marc,

Bob Hergert does the scrimshaw work referenced above.  Tighe makes "pens" that are definitely high-art themselves.  http://www.tighepen.com/

I would be wonderously happy to have a Hergert scrimshaw piece OR a Tighe pen!

GK


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## ed4copies

Easy Greg,

Sell three dozen of YOUR pens (Or mine or anyone else here) and buy ONE of his.


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## BRobbins629

I'm with Ken on this one.  When scrimshaw was invented, there were no lasers capable of carving pens.  Technology has provided us a means to decorate pens that look similar to scrimshaw and enable less gifted artists to make nice art, but are not the real deal.  Someone who would be interested in buying a pen because it has scrimshaw as part of the pen, would not be very happy if deceived.  Someone who is buying the pen because they like the look and design probably wouldn't care.


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## Chasper

Ed, 
So you are looking for a new word to describe scrimshaw and the theory is that if it is not so misleading that it sounds phony but still be nice enough to be market-pleasing.  I like that idea, and I see the need for some new language.  "Green" scrimshaw makes a point but is too trendy and I feel the word is awkward to use.  "Affordable" scrimshaw puts too much emphasis on price, we might be sorry we picked that word when someone wants to sell one of these new scrimshaws for a high price.  How about one of these:
Cultured scrimshaw (connative of "cultured" pearls)
Classic scrimshaw  (classic is always classic, it can mean whatever you want it to mean)
Traditional scrimshaw
Conventional scrimshaw
Ancestural scrimshaw  (to conjour up something about how they used to do it) 
Passe scrimshaw (for the snobs among us)
Paradigmatic scrimshaw (as in one type of something that substitutes for another type)

We need a new word in the pen maker/seller lexicon and the right word will be worth $ over time.


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## ed4copies

If you take the "purist" view, there is not a lot of whalebone, so it's unlikely you will see real scrimshaw ANYWHERE!!

So, what do we call it???

Except for Noah, I never heard of a herd of deer or elephants on ships, either - so that disqualifies THOSE products.

So, what do we call what??????


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## ed4copies

Gerry, 

I typed while you did.  The above was not a response to you.  Thank-you for a well-reasoned answer.

Hope we get more tonight!!!


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## wdcav1952

ed4copies said:


> James,
> 
> Just one question: "How good looking IS the horse he rode in on???"



Ed, I also have one question:  Why are you interested in the looks of a horse??????????????????????????????


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## marcruby

You know, Ed, it suddenly occurred to me that your problem isn't what to call laser engraving but that the general opinion is that it really is 'scamshaw.'  I think most people, confronted with the price of a real scrimshaw pen would be happy to pay less for something that's really 90% as good.  I did some figuring and scrimshaw by a known artist could as something like $500 to $2000 to the price of a pen.  And that's before you add in your own profits margin.

Instead of just labelling it as 'laser engraving' talk up the real deal a limited edition pen is for someone who is just buying the pen for it's good looks.  Me, I think I'm going to get that 'how do do scrimshaw' video.  It might be fun!

Marc


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## thewishman

While the dictionary definition allows for laser engraving to be called scrimshaw, I do not think of laser engraving as scrimshaw. Zig Ziglar says, "Words paint pictures" in your mind. The pictures for scrimshaw and laser engraving in MY head are very different.

Since the question has been asked, that indicates there is doubt. To take advantage of a technical definition reeks of sophistry. 

(Climbing down from my high horse (not a very attractive horse).)


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## avbill

Ed and the gang

_"Modern scrimshaw_"


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## ed4copies

Dawn made an interesting point last night, as we drove home.

Scrimshaw was originated on whaling ships, so the meaning of the word has already evolved. Further evolution is not sacriligious.

However, I prefer NOT to use the exact same terminology. I would like to develop a new word or phrase that specifically identifies laser cutting on PENS.

Scrimshaw was done on much larger pieces - knifehandles, etc. So, the detail could be maintained. To do a picture on a pen REQUIRES lines that are VERY close to each other. IF this were to be done, freehand, it would probably be most easily accomplished with a rotary tool. So, the rotary tool method is another evolution of the term "scrimshaw".

I don't want to MISLEAD any customer. I think Chasper's analysis above hits the nail firmly on the head.

My buddy Lou sent an e-mail suggesting "Noveau Scrimshaw". I might adjust that to "Scrimshaw Noveau" as in "Art Noveau". 

So, what do YOU think - this thread has LOTS of opinions - yours is JUST as VALUABLE as anyone else.

*EXPRESS YOURSELF!!!*​


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## avbill

*OH ED!*

This is a very good topic especialy as I start my first design. Starting with a  black & white ink drawing - when scanning the image   to be used in a engraver-lacer.   I see no reason not to call it Modern scrimshaw


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## THarvey

Explain that it is a Conservation Friendly product.

Alternate Scrimshaw on Alternate Ivory.

Be sure to note:  *"no alternates were harmed in the harvesting of the ivory."*:tongue:


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## waynewright

My to cents is that it is always the best policy to describe accurately and honestly the materials, plating, and any other factors that are involved when we make our pens and offering them for sale to the public.  You may loose some sales, but if you take time to reconsider how you want to position the best assets of your work or ideas you will come out ahead in the end with a lot less problems.

wayne


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## jdoug5170

It seems to me that since many of us use Ken for engraving our pens, and we recognize his abilities to be greater than some others when it comes to getting the computer and laser to do what he/we wish that we should honor his work and call it as he does.

It is misleading and evasive to try to call laser engraving scrimshaw of any type. Would you represent your alt ivory as the real thing?

Doug


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## ed4copies

jdoug5170 said:


> It seems to me that since many of us use Ken for engraving our pens, and we recognize his abilities to be greater than some others when it comes to getting the computer and laser to do what he/we wish that we should honor his work and call it as he does.
> 
> It is misleading and evasive to try to call laser engraving scrimshaw of any type. Would you represent your alt ivory as the real thing?
> 
> Doug


 

There is NO ivory in my alternate ivory, so am I lying???

If you put a phone number in your pen, it can be laser engraved.  Is that representative of the quality of Ken's work????  NO.  So, words have meaning, but meanings evolve.

WE are the hand-made pen industry.  WE CAN decide what to call it.  Over time, it WILL be the accepted terminology.  GET CREATIVE!!!


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## IPD_Mrs

Why do we need a name?  The work/art/design/craftsmanship sells itself.  If you start telling the buying customer too much then they get confused and walk away from the sale.  It is one thing to be an informed buyer and quite another to be a buyer and have BS flowing out your orifices!

Mike


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## maxwell_smart007

I think that if you're imitating the 'style' of scrimshaw, but using lasers, it should be 'alternative ivory pen in scrimshaw style'.  

If you're using carving tools, then you can legitimately say that you're using the technique of scrimshaw...

If you're using lasers, you're imitating scrimshaw artificially...there is no actual carving done on the blank by human hands...

So that's my take on it - scrimshaw style, or imitation scrimshaw...or etched in scrimshaw style....and give a good write-up on the history of scrimshaw, and your modern translation of scrimshaw into a fine writing implement...

No one can be unhappy if they know the whole truth going in...it's how you sell that truth that determines the sale, in my mind...but then, I don't really sell pens, so take all this with a grain of salt.  

Andrew

Andrew


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## ed4copies

thewishman said:


> While the dictionary definition allows for laser engraving to be called scrimshaw, I do not think of laser engraving as scrimshaw. Zig Ziglar says, "Words paint pictures" in your mind. The pictures for scrimshaw and laser engraving in MY head are very different.
> 
> Since the question has been asked, that indicates there is doubt. To take advantage of a technical definition reeks of sophistry.
> 
> (Climbing down from my high horse (not a very attractive horse).)


 
So, Chris, when you visualize "laser engraving" is it a line of type?  Or is it a pen barrel that has to be revolved to accomodate a complicated scene? Certainly you would not use the same, generic term to describe BOTH, would you???????  Think how inaccurate that would be!!!

The whole debate resonates with me, my friend!!!:beauty::beauty:


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## marcruby

I think we're quibbling.  There's nothing wrong with answering the question 'is that scrimshaw?' with 'No, that's engraving.  Pretty nice looking, isn't it?"  Just as long as you don't try and sell it for scrimshaw prices there shouldn't be an issue.  And that's not the kind of behavior I would expect from you.


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## Mudder

*I've got it!*

"Alternative Scrimshaw"


 'nuff said.


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## laserturner

How about this.  
At the grocery store if they don't want to market it as "imitation crab" they'll change the spelling on the label to "Krab".  
Thus, "Skrimshaw"


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## marcruby

I like that >



laserturner said:


> How about this.
> At the grocery store if they don't want to market it as "imitation crab" they'll change the spelling on the label to "Krab".
> Thus, "Skrimshaw"


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## ed4copies

Thanks, Ken!!!

That's got potential!!

Can we build on that idea???


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## ed4copies

Hey Chasper!!

How do you feel about "Skimpshaw" for those who wish to "skimp" on their budget???


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## workinforwood

Boy, the debate of art.  You can't win, what is art, or how it is made, just an impossible debate.  What you can do is have integrity and tell the customer exactly how it was made.  A laser will never catch the value that the human hand can.  The laser can not catch the imperfections, and no matter how good a carver you are, there are imperfections in your work, just ask the carver, he'll show you even if you don't see it.  So, I would allow it to be called laser scrimshaw, not hand made scrimshaw.  Remember, if the laser dies, or the user of the laser, the software lives on and thus can be duplicated to absolute perfection.  When the human carver dies, there is no duplications possible, only re-interpretations from another carver.  And then..no matter how many hours you slave over the computer to make the laser do it's work, it's never as many hours as it takes a carver...once the laser is keyed in, it's production time.  The carver, just one day at a time.  There's so much that can be said.  Laser has it's place in the art world, it's just a different place.  Tell the customer, it is laser scrimshaw, don't mislead them, but stand behind the pen at the same time.


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## CavemanLawyer

Methinks this quodlibetic is mildly amusing. However, to quote my friend, Tharg, "Moop eep og!" Which, being interpreted, means roughly, "Whilst you expostulate this flummery, your brontosaurus steak is getting cold."

Engraving.


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## BRobbins629

Scamshaw would be more like it.


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## Randy_

Call it laser scrimshaw.


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## JimB

OKLAHOMAN said:


> As some of you know I had Ken Engrave an antler pen I called "Trail of Tears" and last night I posted another antler Emperor I said was a scrimshawed feather. To set the record straight the pen last night IS SCRIMSHAW done by a very well know scrimshaw artist Jessie Ghere Feather and the person who bought the engraved pen knows it was engraved and whoever buys the scrimshaw pen will know who did the scrimshaw. But I do agree with Lou that any type of scratching be it by machine or hand tool could be called scrimshaw.
> From the Websters New World Dictionary:
> scrim-shaw: 1. carving done on shells, bone, ivory, etc 2. an article or articles so made.


 Using this definition from Websters then Laser Engraving is not scrimshaw. I say this because if you look up the definition of "carving" (I looked on Wiki) it says carving is done with handheld tools (can be power tools). Since the laser is not handheld it is not carving and therefore not scrimshaw. Now, if you want to hold that laser in your hand and do it then maybe we can reconsider.


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## Chasper

Ed,
I think I'm going to start using the phrase scrimshaw nouveau.  I like the ring of it, I like the coupling of something historic like scrimshaw with the word nouveau which by definition means "new and different, often fashionably so."

Also I have another little home craft business called Nouveau Lithics which is about flint knapping anachronistic stone tools.  I mean things like a folding pocket knife with a stone blade, fiberglass hunting arrows with stone points, a filet knife with a stone blade and corian handle. 

The phrase fits my self-visualized, self-effaced demeanour pretty good; an oxymoron hiding within an enigma.     ......waiting for the defeaning silence to build.....


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## ed4copies

Gerry,

By now you should know there will be no reaction, unless you write in American.

Try again:

Maybe, "Yeah, Scrimshaw Noveau" sounds good to me!!!

That will start a discussion (argument).


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## Chasper

*scrimshaw nouveau*



ed4copies said:


> there will be no reaction, unless you write in American.



Write in American?!  Me?  OK, I'll try.

I agree with you, I think scrimshaw nouveau is a great phrase to use to describe laser engraved scrimshaw style pens.


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## Russianwolf

Ed, I'm going to ask you a question. You've seen the Compucarve machines that Sears has I'm sure, is a piece that comes out of that machine a carving? No human hand was used to go from flat wood to finished piece. I say it's a carving and that what you have done to the pen is either carving or scrimshaw if the material being carved fits the definition. the method of the carving is not an issue. 100 years ago, rotary tools weren't even thought of and yet they are one of the more common tools used in scrimshawing today.

technology changes with time and all art forms change along with the technology.


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## TBone

I like Ken's term of simulated schrimshaw or the aforementioned laser scrimshaw.  It stills uses the term scrimshaw but also provides the information that it is not hand carved.


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## Russianwolf

Thinking more about this, I would simply tell a customer "yes, it is scrimshaw, but not traditional hand carved"

Think about it guys. You can get carved pieces, and inlaid pieces and dovetailed pieces. But when someone says its hand-carved, hand-inlaid or hand-cut dovetails then you undetstand that the price is going up. If they don't say this, then you assume it's machined. Does it mean less quality? no. but less time consuming and thereforeless expensive.


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## DCBluesman

Russianwolf said:


> But when someone says its hand-carved, hand-inlaid or hand-cut dovetails then you undetstand that the price is going up. If they don't say this, then you assume it's machined. Does it mean less quality? no. but less time consuming and thereforeless expensive.


 
Unless it's a pen.  Then a mass produced MontBlanc is $495 and a nicer handcrafted pen is $100.


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## Russianwolf

DCBluesman said:


> Unless it's a pen.  Then a mass produced MontBlanc is $495 and a nicer handcrafted pen is $100.



depends on the hand-crafter.... how much do some of the Gisi sell for? or a Namiki?

Mont Blancs sell for those prices not because they are better, but because they have history.

Oh, one thing I forgot to mention. How many on this site have done a Celtic Knot pen? I think only 1 that I've seen has been a true celtic knot as on the segmented pens one circle is continuous around the pen, a true celtic knot doesn't have a continuous segment. The only one that I'vve seen that was a true celtic knot was a carved knot.


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## loglugger

Do away with the word scrimshaw and start a new name all together, no it is not scrimshaw it is _ _ _ _ _ _ _. Don't have any ideas.


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## wolftat

Ed I would have to say that admitting the work is laser engraving instead of scrimshaw would be the same as saying the pen is plastic instead of alternate ivory. Sometimes in order to make a sale, you will tell the customer only part of the facts. Too much information is dangerous to business sometimes. Modern Scrimshaw does sound lke what it is..sort of.


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## td

"It's done in a scrimshaw style by an extremely talented laser-engraving artist."  

I've seen $5 a line laser work..... then there are artists.


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## nava1uni

I think that telling people it is engraved is the best way.  Making new language could be problematic because you would have to tell everyone what the definition of the word is and I think that would take a lot of time and the sale wouldn't happen anyway.


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## Skye

This can be simplified by simply calling something "Laser engraved scrimshaw" or "Hand engraved scrimshaw". I don't think anyone can argue the idea that regardless, it falls under the heading of scrimshaw. 

What's being asked about it the manner in how it's accomplished. If neglecting to call out the fact that it's laser engraved didn't strike us as somehow wrong, there wouldn't even be a question in your mind about it. Being that there is, it's probably there for a reason.

Lable it "Laser engraved scrimshaw" or "Hand engraved scrimshaw", simple as that.


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## titan2

I'd call it 'Lasered Scrimshaw'.......as using a laser is a form of carving, even though it's an automated endeavor (once everything is setup).  You'll probably only get 'THAT' question when the carving is on 'bone' or 'antler'.


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