# Shop overhaul



## DozerMite (Aug 13, 2011)

I've sold off some of my woodworking equipment to fund a new interest.
There have been way too many break-in's around here lately and with people home. There were some that were beatin, but all were burglarized.
It's a sign 'o the times... personnal protection! I'm applying for my CC permit and this will be here in the next couple weeks.


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## SLICKYINC (Aug 13, 2011)

Any particular reason you went with the sig?


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## Fred (Aug 13, 2011)

Did you just get one? Ya know you do have two hands ...

By 'shop overhaul' does that mean you are building a reloading section to support your 'new interests?" 

BTW, nice weapon ... I hope you never have to use it in a defensive situation!


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## JAZNCARR (Aug 13, 2011)

*i have the 250*

I have the sig p250 in a .45..  it looks mean and feels good in ur hands....  and it looks like something real big. Will come out the end of it...  and. It fun to switch the barrels around and shoot like 9mm bullets in less than 2 minutes..  I went that way. So I could buy the other barrel sets and not have to go through a ffl


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## D.Oliver (Aug 13, 2011)

I can't tell by the picture... Did you go with the .22, 9mm, .40, or .357?  By the way what does CC stand for.  I'm assume it must be a concealed weapons permit but I can't figure out what the second "C" stands for?


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## Timebandit (Aug 13, 2011)

D.Oliver said:


> I can't tell by the picture... Did you go with the .22, 9mm, .40, or .357?  By the way what does CC stand for.  I'm assume it must be a concealed weapons permit but I can't figure out what the second "C" stands for?



"Concealed Carry"


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## SLICKYINC (Aug 13, 2011)

D.Oliver said:


> I can't tell by the picture... Did you go with the .22, 9mm, .40, or .357? By the way what does CC stand for. I'm assume it must be a concealed weapons permit but I can't figure out what the second "C" stands for?


 Concealed Carry


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## DozerMite (Aug 13, 2011)

Not just one reason... there are several.
The biggest being the rating and reviews.
It is top of the line and was between this and the Berretta M9. This fits in my hand very nicely and comfortable to hold as compared to the M9's larger grip.
The Sig and Berretta were the only finalists for the military contract. The Berretta only got it because of the lower cost.
It has a machined stainless slide and aluminum alloy frame. Much better than the poly frames. It also has perfect balance and holds 15 rounds from the factory with the staggered stack and an available 20 round mag. Lifetime warranty too.
There isn't a manual safety to mess with and is drop safe. If it's good enough for the Navy Seals and 1/3 of law enforcement, it should do fine for me.
I know they run a bit high in cost, but for the reliability and my family's safety, it's well worth it. Plus, I am getting it for 5% over cost. That alone, brings it down to the retail Glock and Ruger cost for a better platform.


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## DozerMite (Aug 13, 2011)

It's a 9mm, but as stated above, it can be changed to a .40 or .357 with a barrel kit.
I chose the 9mm because the ammo is inexpensive and my wife will be shooting it as well.


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## D.Oliver (Aug 13, 2011)

If you got the 20 round mag you must have went with the 9mm.


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## PenMan1 (Aug 13, 2011)

Thugs that beat people in home invasions DON'T DESERVE to be shot with a Sig! They are not worth the time to clean such a fine weapon!

While I'm in love with your Sig, get yourself an Ithica 37 shotgun with an 8 shot mag (We call'em ghetto blasters here), load it with slugs and trim the barrel to 18.0001 inches (legal in all 50 states). Those poor ole Ithicas have a "pump defect", they fire every time you pump, while holding the trigger.

That way, when you "take care" of business, your home owner's insurance will buy you some new wall paper for the walls you took down. Court cases are MUCH simplier WITHOUT witnesses.

God, I HATE a thief and a thug!


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## ssajn (Aug 13, 2011)

The Sig is a nice piece. I have several including a 22 conversion for the 226. Makes for cheap shooting so you can get lots of practice in. Besides, it's a lot of fun.
Good choice.


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## EricJS (Aug 14, 2011)

When the military chose Beretta over Sig there was a lot of talk that Beretta won out because of the wide open ejection port. I doubt if that was a deciding factor because the Sig never proved to jam. 

I've owned a Beretta (92F) for 22 years and love it, but I know many enthusiasts and law enforcement officials who say the Sig is a better investment. Eventually I'd like to purchase the Sig P220.

Excellent choice.


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## Dalecamino (Aug 14, 2011)

Good move! As they say...."It is better to HAVE one and NOT need it, than to NEED one and NOT HAVE it." Be safe!


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## robersonjr (Aug 14, 2011)

My kind of "dog", I love self protection.  Too bad you had to sell your equipment to make this purchase. I still love my old Modle 12, it sure has a loud voice. Of course I have the 357 for back up.  Robbie


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## ctubbs (Aug 14, 2011)

Andy, right weapon, wrong ammo.  Double 0 buck is my choice. In 2 3/4" round is 9 pellets the diameter of a 38 slug.  Goes through closed doors and Sheetrock walls like Super Man.  Andy and Robbie are both right about the gun, I can not think of a sound that would scare me more if I were in someone else's house than to hear a round being rolled up into the ol' 12 gauge pump.
Just one thing, my uncle who was the local police chief insisted I learn.  Before you ever pick up a weapon to defend yourself, be absolutely sure you are willing to take that person's life from him.  If you have the least doubt, he will know and take your weapon from you and use it against you.  Also, when you pull the trigger, shoot to kill.  If you just would him, you will keep him up for the rest of your life.
If this is political I will understand.  I will not need to be notified.
Charles


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## ohiococonut (Aug 14, 2011)

Very nice choice. I have a few of them as well. The 229 Classic Compact is my CCW.


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## DozerMite (Aug 14, 2011)

Can't carry a shotgun. I will protect my family... whatever it takes. Several shots to the Thoracic Triangle will eliminate any threat.
I'm no professional, but will be taking firearms basic and self-defense classes.
I plan on a lot of range time.


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## bitshird (Aug 14, 2011)

PenMan1 said:


> Thugs that beat people in home invasions DON'T DESERVE to be shot with a Sig! They are not worth the time to clean such a fine weapon!
> 
> While I'm in love with your Sig, get yourself an Ithica 37 shotgun with an 8 shot mag (We call'em ghetto blasters here), load it with slugs and trim the barrel to 18.0001 inches (legal in all 50 states). Those poor ole Ithicas have a "pump defect", they fire every time you pump, while holding the trigger.
> 
> ...



Andy I agree I got an old Mossberg 12ga Mag. loaded with 00 buck. got the extended capacity and cut it to 181/4 . for a carry piece I like a compact 45 like a Colt Government or even a Combat Commander, May not carry enough rounds for a serious fire fight. but the ones that hit count like hell, and being a conservative concerned citizen I keep it loaded with Corbon blues, Don't want to risk and collateral damage to innocents.



DozerMite said:


> Can't carry a shotgun. I will protect my family... whatever it takes. Several shots to the Thoracic Triangle will eliminate any threat.
> I'm no professional, but will be taking firearms basic and self-defense classes.
> I plan on a lot of range time.



9mm's kind of scare me, Nice shooting, but unless you're going to use a fragmenting round, I've always been afraid of a through shot, hitting someone  who wasn't involved. A fellow I knew in Albuquerque shot a thug in side his home with a 9 the bullet went through the thug and hit the guys wife in the bedroon. Granted the guy was using Jacketed rounds, but still, with Corbon's or Starfires and I happen to know where there is half a box of Black Talon 45 ACP. thins like that don't happen,  A 9mm is fun to shoot. and I'm curious about the .40 cal. seems like maybe a decent trade off??


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## ZanderPommo (Aug 14, 2011)

good to see you taking action, but in my opinion its better to start with a glock or XD type weapon. much easier for your first gun to be simple to use. My XDm-9 has no manual safety, but rather a grip and trigger safety that get disabled when using a proper firing grip. From my understanding the military had the choice between the sig and beretta bc of cost and production capability.
You also cant beat a glock or XDM for reliability, my XDm-9 is my comp. pistol and has eaten several thousand rounds so far with NO malfunctions.

You're planning to carry the Sig? thats a pretty bulky pistol for everyday carry, it will cause you alot of discomfort over time, and also will not conceal as well. For concealed carry look into Kahr pistols. especially carrying a sig with an extended mag? that'll be big. if you want unbeatable training for a lower cost, get in your range time, then look into IDPA competition. IDPA stands for international defensive pistol association, and its 100% geared towards training you for a defensive situation. Its also a hell of alot of fun :wink:


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## ZanderPommo (Aug 14, 2011)

9mm hollowpoints should do the trick in solving that. as for 40 cal, its a very efficient load, and very high velocity, you would have 2 worry about through shots. A glock 21 has 13 rds of 45 ACP



bitshird said:


> PenMan1 said:
> 
> 
> > Thugs that beat people in home invasions DON'T DESERVE to be shot with a Sig! They are not worth the time to clean such a fine weapon!
> ...


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## sgimbel (Aug 14, 2011)

The .40 cal will hit, drop him/her and stop according to my neighbor who teaches concealed carry courses.


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## PenMan1 (Aug 14, 2011)

ctubbs said:


> Andy, right weapon, wrong ammo. Double 0 buck is my choice. In 2 3/4" round is 9 pellets the diameter of a 38 slug. Goes through closed doors and Sheetrock walls like Super Man. Andy and Robbie are both right about the gun, I can not think of a sound that would scare me more if I were in someone else's house than to hear a round being rolled up into the ol' 12 gauge pump.
> Just one thing, my uncle who was the local police chief insisted I learn. Before you ever pick up a weapon to defend yourself, be absolutely sure you are willing to take that person's life from him. If you have the least doubt, he will know and take your weapon from you and use it against you. Also, when you pull the trigger, shoot to kill. If you just would him, you will keep him up for the rest of your life.
> If this is political I will understand. I will not need to be notified.
> Charles


 
ROTFLMAO! :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:
Charles, 
I do, in fact, agree that the "double 0" is a much more effective load! Just be sure to call your dog and make sure he is not in the other room! K9s tend to get a little timid after they get hit by a falling wall attached to a door and door frame:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

Sounds like y'all know about the Georgia Express Card up in Tennessee, too! "Don't leave home without it"!

Down in Georgia, the two most stressful sounds in the world are "Honey, I'm home!" Followed by the distinctive sould of a twelve gauge shell being shucked into the chamber of the Ithica 37.


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## Florida Marine (Aug 14, 2011)

Like the short gun...but if you are looking for a home defense weapon, you want a shotgun.

The short gun is only to fight your way to a long gun.

My .02 and a number of other folks who teach this stuff.

Sean


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## Florida Marine (Aug 14, 2011)

DozerMite said:


> Can't carry a shotgun. I will protect my family... whatever it takes. Several shots to the Thoracic Triangle will eliminate any threat.
> I'm no professional, but will be taking firearms basic and self-defense classes.
> I plan on a lot of range time.



no you can't, and not knowing your background I can't comment on your ability to use a weapon in a defensive manner - but having been there done that, it comes down to training and nerve, and unless you shoot and practice A LOT you are not going to get it down with a pistol.

If someone is in my house, I am going for my Mossberg 500 near the bed - bird shot, double ought and then to slugs.  My thinking being i warn/hurt them badly, they keep coming the double 00 shreds them.  They make it past that and an RWS Rottweil rifled slug will take down even a meth head.   I have an extended tube, collapsible stock - mildly tacticool bedside gun.

Now, I carry a weapon with me everywhere except work (the irony) - so if I were you and you want a home defense capability score a scatter gun.  I have been a CCW holder in Fl since they first came out in 93/94 - so I have a lot of time with a gun in my possession - as well as 3 combat tours.  

A short gun is a back up.


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## DozerMite (Aug 14, 2011)

ZanderPommo said:


> good to see you taking action, but in my opinion its better to start with a glock or XD type weapon. much easier for your first gun to be simple to use. My XDm-9 has no manual safety, but rather a grip and trigger safety that get disabled when using a proper firing grip. From my understanding the military had the choice between the sig and beretta bc of cost and production capability.
> You also cant beat a glock or XDM for reliability, my XDm-9 is my comp. pistol and has eaten several thousand rounds so far with NO malfunctions.
> 
> You're planning to carry the Sig? thats a pretty bulky pistol for everyday carry, it will cause you alot of discomfort over time, and also will not conceal as well. For concealed carry look into Kahr pistols. especially carrying a sig with an extended mag? that'll be big. if you want unbeatable training for a lower cost, get in your range time, then look into IDPA competition. IDPA stands for international defensive pistol association, and its 100% geared towards training you for a defensive situation. Its also a hell of alot of fun :wink:


 
I don't want a poly frame. The 226 isn't but slightly larger than the 229 and it fits my hand perfect. The 15 round mag isn't extended and being a bigger guy, I should be able to tuck it away. I went with something that has been proven and will last. In testing, the Sig shot 5,000 rounds flawlessly without being cleaned. To be honest, I just stopped at the gunshop to look around and held the XD's, Glock, Taurus, Berretta, and the Sig. I knew little to nothing about any of them, but the Sig was just more refined, balanced, and felt better in my hand. After doing some research, I finally decided on the Sig.

A shotgun may be better for home, but this is an all around weapon. It will be used at the range, for carry, for home, and my wife will be using it as well. So since all that fits in the budget for now is one, this was it. And according to the charts, with Shockwave's JHP or Gold Dot's JHP, the numbers and resulting damage are very close to a .45 with comparable ammo at 25 yrds. Most defensive shots are at 10 yrds. or less and at that distance, the target will go down with a couple rounds. If not, there are 19 more to follow.
I'm not super experienced, but that will change. I shot a Ruger 9mm at a 18" x 24" target from 30 yrds. and hit it with every shot. We were doing defensive shooting, so there wasn't any aiming, just pointing and pulling the trigger. So I think I can improve with practice.

I appreciate everyones opinion and experience. I will look into the IDPA.


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## cwolfs69 (Aug 14, 2011)

*congratulations*

good choice in weapons. dependable gear, 9mm cheapest round and very effective. my wife and i are big 1911 carriers ourselves but she does have the sig p238, 380 for deep conceal carry. would not leave my house without a weapon in this day and age. welcome aboard the gun toting crowd.


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## Nick (Aug 14, 2011)

So James, does this mean you you will not be doing the video you had mentioned??


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## ZanderPommo (Aug 14, 2011)

I believe you when you say the sig felt better balanced. but its a fairly heavy gun, to me a full sized 2011 feels very balanced, but I definatly couldn't carry that. Why don't you like polymer frames? they have proven their durability and reliability, and are in fact lighter, so for a concealed gun, it would seem ideal to go as light as possible. My Father is an NRA certified pistol instructor, and he got me into IDPA when I was 15. I'll turn 18 November 1st.
As far as practicing shooting as fast as you can without aiming, I'd recommend against it. From buzzer to first shot takes me about a second and thats an aimed shot. Never in all of my defensive training have I heard someone recommend shooting without aiming besides retention training, which simulates combat between 1 and four feet. If you can extend your arms, you need to aim, and it would be unsafe to do otherwise. You should instead work on aquiring a faster sight picture. One of the 5 basic rules of gun safety is to "keep your finger off the trigger until your SIGHTS are on the target"
Point shooting was commonly taught in the past but if you look at the New York police dept records, when they stopped teaching point shooting and started front sight training, hit percentages went up dramatically.
Just my thoughts please dont take offense



DozerMite said:


> ZanderPommo said:
> 
> 
> > good to see you taking action, but in my opinion its better to start with a glock or XD type weapon. much easier for your first gun to be simple to use. My XDm-9 has no manual safety, but rather a grip and trigger safety that get disabled when using a proper firing grip. From my understanding the military had the choice between the sig and beretta bc of cost and production capability.
> ...


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## ZanderPommo (Aug 14, 2011)

sgimbel said:


> The .40 cal will hit, drop him/her and stop according to my neighbor who teaches concealed carry courses.


 

in a perfect world yes, but the chance for passthrough for 40 vs 45 is higher, by a bit. 9mm is however always more likely, though 9mm hollowpoint rounds usually dont pass through


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## BKelley (Aug 14, 2011)

The Sig is a great choice.  The extra capacity is good for a  shootout especially with a second clip.  My all time choice for a carry weapon is a Colt Combat Commander in .38 Super in stainless steel all snuggled down in Bianchi leather.  Check out the specs of the .38 Super, and when handloaded it's bad.  The best gun in the world is the one you like and can hit with.  I rather have a .22 I can hit with than a .357 that I can't hit with.

Ben


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## DozerMite (Aug 14, 2011)

ZanderPommo said:


> I believe you when you say the sig felt better balanced. but its a fairly heavy gun, to me a full sized 2011 feels very balanced, but I definatly couldn't carry that. Why don't you like polymer frames? they have proven their durability and reliability, and are in fact lighter, so for a concealed gun, it would seem ideal to go as light as possible. My Father is an NRA certified pistol instructor, and he got me into IDPA when I was 15. I'll turn 18 November 1st.
> As far as practicing shooting as fast as you can without aiming, I'd recommend against it. From buzzer to first shot takes me about a second and thats an aimed shot. Never in all of my defensive training have I heard someone recommend shooting without aiming besides retention training, which simulates combat between 1 and four feet. If you can extend your arms, you need to aim, and it would be unsafe to do otherwise. You should instead work on aquiring a faster sight picture. One of the 5 basic rules of gun safety is to "keep your finger off the trigger until your SIGHTS are on the target"
> Point shooting was commonly taught in the past but if you look at the New York police dept records, when they stopped teaching point shooting and started front sight training, hit percentages went up dramatically.
> Just my thoughts please dont take offense


 
No offense taken. From what I've read and been explained to by a instructor is, in the real world under stress or being awakened/surprised, you don't have the time to aim. If you use the barrel as the tip of your finger and point, you will hit the target. I intend on training to see how accurate each method is and the time required to achieve consistancey each way. I feel that if I can hit the 18" x 24" target (the average dimensions of the core) at 30 yrds. , I should be fine at 10 yrds.
That is why I'm going to take the courses, I don't want to develop bad habits.





As for the 1911's, it was advised not to get one for a first pistol. Much more recoil and muzzle flip. Plus, my wife wouldn't use it.

Another plus with the Sig, if I decide it isn't what I like or hard to carry, or whatever reason, it holds a great resale value. I'm sure I wouldn't have any problem selling it. After I get it and put some rounds through it, I'll let everyone know how I still like it. I plan to go shoot one at the range this week. They rent it.


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## Rick_G (Aug 14, 2011)

DozerMite said:


> ZanderPommo said:
> 
> 
> > As for the 1911's, it was advised not to get one for a first pistol. Much more recoil and muzzle flip. Plus, my wife wouldn't use it.
> ...


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## ZanderPommo (Aug 14, 2011)

As did I, but my point was if your first gun is going to be a full size, defense capable caliber, and it is to be used in a situation in which you are likely to defend yourself under pressure, the simpler the better. as for teaching someone the mechanics of shooting and sight picture, I wholeheartedly agree that a 22 is the place to start. also it isnt a caliber that you can easily develop any type of flinch to



Rick_G said:


> DozerMite said:
> 
> 
> > ZanderPommo said:
> ...


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## ZanderPommo (Aug 14, 2011)

I appreciate this line of thinking, but developing good shooting habits is exactly what I am urging. As far as being too scared to aim, isn't that the point of training? By that logic it seems all wars would be fought from the hip. I don't know what I would do in a defensive scenario as far as by the book training, but one thing I can guarantee you is that I would see my front sight. It is absolute instinct for me, as much as the instinct to pull the trigger. When my gun goes up, the front sight is in view.

The problem is for a very new shooter, pointing will work better at FIRST. If you look at it this way, the gangbanger whos trying to kill you is using the same technique as you. Your first few shots watching the sights may be slower, but speed will come with practice, and I can gaurentee your accuracy will be better. You mentioned shooting a 24x18 inch target. IDPA targets are similar size, and I practice drills at 30+ yards all the time, that are double tap and headshot drills. thats two to the chest and one to the head, the head is about 5x5'' and the down zero section of the body is an 8'' circle. I do this faster than all of the police I've ever had the chance to shoot with, and better than all but one marine (who is a competition shooter now 3000+ rds a week((and one illinois state championship)))   if Im out of any of those target areas I'm having an off day. I dont mean this in order to brag or be condescending, rather to prove the point that practice puts your sights on target faster, and in my mind that is what makes me different from the thug pointing the gun at my head, I would prefer the confidence of my accuracy and speed rather than entering a wild west quick-draw shootout.

I really dont mean to bicker, I just hate to see people training with fundamentals that may end up getting them hurt in the future, though if you can find a range near you where you can do drawing and reloading practice, assuming they have a good sized berm or other backstop I definatly reccomend shooting from retention (pointing from hip while drawing from holster, one handed, while on retreat) for engagements under 4-6ft. I'll try to post an example of this if i can find one.

I also dont mean to be insulting in any way (i know you've already stated you understand this) its just that the competition I enjoy twice every month, is completely geared to this type of thing. I also would like to recommend everyone check for local IDPA matches, and join up, its a great time and could save your life, you just never know.




DozerMite said:


> ZanderPommo said:
> 
> 
> > I believe you when you say the sig felt better balanced. but its a fairly heavy gun, to me a full sized 2011 feels very balanced, but I definatly couldn't carry that. Why don't you like polymer frames? they have proven their durability and reliability, and are in fact lighter, so for a concealed gun, it would seem ideal to go as light as possible. My Father is an NRA certified pistol instructor, and he got me into IDPA when I was 15. I'll turn 18 November 1st.
> ...


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## ZanderPommo (Aug 14, 2011)

I couldn't find any shooting from retention but you'll see even at the close distance I start at in this vid I shoot while watching my sights, every round fired was preceded by a sight picture, the idea behind retention shooting is that you only shoot from the hip to keep the gun close to your body so it cant be grabbed or redirected by someone in arms reach. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXUymrL0frg


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## titan2 (Aug 15, 2011)

ZanderPommo said:


> I couldn't find any shooting from retention but you'll see even at the close distance I start at in this vid I shoot while watching my sights, every round fired was preceded by a sight picture, the idea behind retention shooting is that you only shoot from the hip to keep the gun close to your body so it cant be grabbed or redirected by someone in arms reach.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXUymrL0frg


 

Here's an option for you.....I've been looking at this firearm....

Check out this site for the Taurus 4410 "The Judge"

http://www.taurususa.com/video-theJudge.cfm

New, smaller framed "Judge"

http://www.taurususa.com/product-details.cfm?id=662&category=Revolver&toggle=wn&breadcrumbseries=41

That will answer concerns about pass through and close quarter defense!


Barney


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## ZanderPommo (Aug 16, 2011)

the only problem with that is, while it looks good on a paper target, if its not a very close range shot, birdshot rounds dont do much damage, even other shot doesnt necessary have enough penetration to give the stopping power you might hope for. 45 colt will get the job done though:wink:


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## titan2 (Aug 16, 2011)

ZanderPommo said:


> the only problem with that is, while it looks good on a paper target, if its not a very close range shot, birdshot rounds dont do much damage, even other shot doesnt necessary have enough penetration to give the stopping power you might hope for. 45 colt will get the job done though:wink:


 
Not talking bird shot.....if it's for home defense, I'd be using buck shot or even the Winchester PDX1 .410 rounds.

The PDX rounds have 3 discs which engage the rifling in the barrel in addition to the shots....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvNP78hBwcs&feature=player_embedded#at=37

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kIuI3heYMQ&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0ZD1bD8Tn8&feature=player_embedded


Just saying.....this gun will stop someone with the correct round......not talking bird shot here.....unless the intruder is a snake in the grass!! 


Barney


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## titan2 (Aug 17, 2011)

First & only bump.....

Interesting thread....


Barney


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## DozerMite (Aug 17, 2011)

I'm still waiting for confirmation on when it will arrive.

I've read the manual, watched the video's on how to field strip, clean, lubricate, reassemble and test it. I'm ready to put some rounds through it... _when_ it finally gets here.:biggrin:

I found a local club I'm going to check out Fri.

As with ANY new tool... the anticipation increases daily.


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