# Craft Coat (CC) - A new water-based finishing product



## Crashmph (Jan 22, 2014)

*I have enough testers now... I will keep you all posted how this "turns out". Additionally, if you want to share your sample with friends to get a bigger pool of results, feel free to do so.*

*Please post your results to this thread.*

Hello IAP, 

*I am working with a cousin to help out with a product of his; he owns Eco Advance. The product is called Craft Coat (I have been calling it CC for short). It is a water-based finishing product similar to Wood Turners Finish (WTF), but it produces a much nicer and durable finish like a CA finish does.

*
*About Echo Advance:*
_Eco Advancements, Inc. is dedicated to the advancement of environmentally safe coatings, sealers, paints and cleaners.  Our company is committed to the development and manufacturing of products that help preserve the environment without sacrificing performance. All Eco Advance products, including raw materials, and even packaging are made in the USA._

_We have our own in-house R&D and quality control departments and a substantial portion of our resources are continually invested in to new products and technologies. Among our team’s accomplishments is the invention of the first waterborne oil modified coatings to surpass EPA environmental requirements. We also invented the revolutionary instant-cure UV coatings technology._

_Our products are manufactured, stored and shipped from a 40,000 square foot state-of-the art manufacturing facility centrally located in Arkansas.  We are one of the fastest growing eco products companies in the country and our products are widely sold and used in the US, Canada, Australia, Brazil, and Malaysia. _


*I have been using CC on my pens, stoppers, pepper grinders, etc... for several months now. For me, CC has produced a very shinny and durable finish the same as a CA finish. It works especially well on oily woods like cocobolo. I did my own blind testing with pens finished with CA and pens finished with CC. I have passed these pens around to friends and turners to ask for then to find a difference, and none has been found in the finished product.

CC is a water based product and does not have the adverse side effects skin and eye irritant. It can be applied similarly to how CA is applied on the lathe in layers minus any accelerate or boiled linseed oil (BLO), or it does very well as a dip solution. If you wash your bushings with warm soapy water soon after application, all of the dried CC finish will wash right off.
*
*Here is the website description for CC:*
_"Craft Coat is a waterborne linseed oil modified wood finish that self-crosslinks when exposed to oxygen to develop an extremely durable film that exhibits outstanding scratch, mar, water, and chemical resistance. It has the depth and gloss of an oil modified urethane (O.M.U.) and is formulated to ensure maximum protection on any type of wood, especially hard-to-coat dense and oily exotic hardwoods. It exhibits excellent adhesion on all types of wood including exotic and naturally oily woods that typically require preparation before coating. Craft Coat does not have a solvent base so it dries very quickly and is sandable in 1-1/2 to 2 hours."_

*Right now it is available for purchase form his site for $26/qt. That is cheaper than WTF from Woodcraft by a few bucks. It is available in a Gloss, Semi-Gloss, and Satin. It does not matter with one you use for pens, stoppers, and such as the typical wet-sand finish will gloss any of them. If you want to use it for other projects as a clear coat sealant, then you can pick out your desired shine.
The sandable times listed are only for dip times. If applied in layers like a CA finish, the try dry times are very short.*

_Disclaimer: As to not skew any possible results, I will not be posting any of my pens with this finish at this time._

  I am looking for 12 volunteers with *good experience* at CA finishing to test and review this product.  I am specifically targeting people who are good at CA finishing but tired of the fumes from the CA process.  The volunteers will be shipped a bottle of the CC product free of charge to finish some pens, stoppers, or other turned projects with it.  I am looking for you honest assessment of the product.

*I am looking for information the following areas:*
·         *Finish quality*
·         *Odor/fumes during process*
·         *Ease of application*
·         *Time for completion of application of finish*
·         *Method used for application (dip, layered, etc…)*
· *What did you use the finish on (pens, stoppers, etc...)*
·         *Feel free to add any other information you deem appropriate to the review*

  I will start a new thread for the review results when the samples have shipped.  Please PM me your contact details.  If any others have used this product in the past, please post your experiences with it as well.

  Thank you,
  Michael Hardin


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## Dan Masshardt (Jan 22, 2014)

Wow, this sounds really cool.  I'm excited about the different alternatives coming out.  

Your claim of ca like shine is interesting.  This has been the shortcoming of many of the alternatives in the past, IMO.  

There just doesn't seem anything quite as impressive as ca.  Although I've been somewhat impressed with pens plus.  If durability comes through.  

May I ask, with cc, how many coats do you apply on the lathe to get the desired build?   The polishing process is then similar to ca?   MM and or liquid polish?

Very interesting!


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## lorbay (Jan 22, 2014)

I would love to give it a try.

Lin.


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## The Penguin (Jan 22, 2014)

How does this product work on larger turnings like bowls?

I would be willing to give it a try...and I have a friend (that also works at Woodcraft) that uses WTF almost exclusively on bowls. I bet he would give you a fair review for that use.


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## dudstuen (Jan 22, 2014)

*cc test*

Michael, I would be interested in trying it. I do alot of Ca finish and have been turning for about 5 years. Pens, wine stoppers, and other small projects. Regards, Dave


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## ElMostro (Jan 22, 2014)

I'd be interested.  I have developed a reaction to the CA fumes that puts me out of commission for about 3 days (almost like flu symptoms accompanied with a rash) every time I use it so I have pretty much quit turning pens that need a finish. I have some new blanks turned and standing by for a finish so I have been looking for other options.
Eugene.


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## LanceD (Jan 22, 2014)

I'm very interested in trying It out myself.


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## dbledsoe (Jan 22, 2014)

If you need another tester, I would be interested in doing so. I have to buy very expensive odorless CA because the regular stuff affects me adversely. I have used WTF and Doctor's finishes, with some limited success. I still like the CA shine, but not the fumes.
Dave Bledsoe


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## Carl Fisher (Jan 22, 2014)

I'll give it a go.  I've done my time with CA and after perfecting my technique I've actually moved away from it for various reasons.  I've been testing various alternatives but still not 100% happy with anything I've tried yet.


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## Dan Masshardt (Jan 22, 2014)

I didn't say so in my first post, but I'd be willing do do some fairly extensive usage of it promptly.


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## socdad (Jan 22, 2014)

I tried Wood Turners finish fromWoodcraft and didn't like the results … I would love to tryout 'CC' finish.


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## Mike Powell (Jan 22, 2014)

Ill try it out.


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## brownsfn2 (Jan 22, 2014)

I didn't see you mention time between coats. One advantage with CA is there is only around 30 seconds between coats.  After the last coat of CA is applied I usually let mine cure for a while so the time after the last coat is not a big issue.  The time between coats is what I would really look for.  If I have to wait 1/2 hour between coats then that is a long time to finish a pen.

Sounds really interesting though.


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## ssajn (Jan 22, 2014)

I'd be very interested in testing this finish.


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## ashaw (Jan 22, 2014)

Michael
If you need another tester I am in.

Alan


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## Edgar (Jan 22, 2014)

I'll be a tester if you still need one.


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## Crashmph (Jan 22, 2014)

Hello IAP,

First, thank you for taking your time to evaluate a new product.  We  greatly appreciate your time and energy spent with us. Please place your  product reviews and comments to this thread.

*We are looking for information the following areas:*
·         *Finish quality*
·         *Odor/fumes during process*
·         *Ease of application*
·         *Time for completion of application of finish*
·         *Method used for application (dip, layered, etc…)*
· *What did you use the finish on (pens, stoppers, etc...)*
·         *Feel free to add any other information you deem appropriate to the review*

Once again, thank you for your help.

OK, now to the good part... we have some volunteers! 

There was a mixture of PMs and Posts to weed through.  I had to check the times of posts and PMs to find the first 12 to respond.  I am sorry that all of you could not make the list.  *We are trying to work with the Bash committee to give out prizes of CC next month.*

Here is the list and the times the responded. 


 alankulwicki   8:59
 MarkD          9:20
 Dan Masshardt  9:21
 lorbay         9:21
 The Penguin    9:23
 dudstuen       9:31
 parklandturner 9:36
 ElMostro       9:40
 LanceD         9:46
 Nellieteach    9:51
 dbledsoe      10:11
Carl Fisher 10:13


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## SynchroPENsity (Jan 22, 2014)

I would love to try it. If I don't have good ventilation when using CA, I have strong respiratory problems.  A water based product would be great.


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## Ambidex (Jan 22, 2014)

I can't wait for the results, and you have a great test team. I'm with the crowd that LOVES the ca look...and am fairly good at ca'ing but still have problems once in a while and hate the fumes of ca! Will be looking forward to the results


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## kyaggie (Jan 23, 2014)

It's been a day since you selected the test team so where are the test results??? 

I'm very interested in hearing about how this goes especially regarding durability, time between coats and if the wood still looks and feels like wood (my chief complaint with the plastic look and feel of CA).

Mike


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## Dan Masshardt (Jan 23, 2014)

kyaggie said:


> It's been a day since you selected the test team so where are the test results???   I'm very interested in hearing about how this goes especially regarding durability, time between coats and if the wood still looks and feels like wood (my chief complaint with the plastic look and feel of CA).  Mike



He said that others can't tell the difference from ca, so it will be interesting to see.


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## lorbay (Jan 23, 2014)

kyaggie said:


> It's been a day since you selected the test team so where are the test results???
> 
> I'm very interested in hearing about how this goes especially regarding durability, time between coats and if the wood still looks and feels like wood (my chief complaint with the plastic look and feel of CA).
> 
> Mike



Ha Ha. Your funny unless you are the mail man and have delivered the product to the team personally. :biggrin::biggrin:
Lin


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## Crashmph (Jan 23, 2014)

*UPDATE:*  All addresses have been received. Packages should go out by tomorrow.


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## elkhorn (Jan 23, 2014)

I'd be interested in giving it a try as well.  CA shine, but no hassle - wow!


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## lorbay (Jan 23, 2014)

elkhorn said:


> I'd be interested in giving it a try as well.  CA shine, but no hassle - wow!



Your too late. Read post 17.
Lin


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## Crashmph (Jan 23, 2014)

kyaggie said:


> It's been a day since you selected the test team so where are the test results???
> 
> I'm very interested in hearing about how this goes especially regarding durability, time between coats and if the wood still looks and feels like wood (my chief complaint with the plastic look and feel of CA).
> 
> Mike



You guys are too funny... LOL

As for the look and feel of wood, if only a thin coat or two are used, the wood feel and look can still be there, but a proper finish with CC will look and feel just like CA does.

Michael


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## Dan Masshardt (Jan 23, 2014)

Crashmph said:


> You guys are too funny... LOL  As for the look and feel of wood, if only a thin coat or two are used, the wood feel and look can still be there, but a proper finish with CC will look and feel just like CA does.  Michael



How many coats have you been using?


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## Carl Fisher (Jan 24, 2014)

Crashmph said:


> kyaggie said:
> 
> 
> > It's been a day since you selected the test team so where are the test results???
> ...



Can you outline the steps for what you are calling a proper finish so we have a baseline for testing?


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## Ligget (Jan 27, 2014)

I would like to buy some but the UPS Saver option is $125, is this the only option available?


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## Crashmph (Jan 27, 2014)

Ligget said:


> I would like to buy some but the UPS Saver option is $125, is this the only option available?



Other options are now available for international shipping.   

Additionally, I changed the link on the first post to link to the main  page for CC rather than the Qt can page originally linked by mistake.


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## Crashmph (Jan 27, 2014)

*CC finishing Steps*

Hi All,

  I will try to get proper tutorial for CC usage for the library and a video as soon as I can. 

  As most of you all know, there are several ways to put a finish on a pen. I will outline my method of finishing a pen with CC.

*Note*_: I turn between centers for everything with tube sizes above 7mm, and fishing on the lathe is done between centers for all my blanks. _

  Here are “my” steps to a glass finish with CC:


Sand prep your blank just like you normally would up to 2000 grit.
Wipe down the blank with DNA.
Remove busings/mandrel and place blank gently between centers without metal bushings (or use some of the derlin finishing bushings)
Using a 3”x3” cotton cloth folded in half, add three to four drops of CC to the cloth
Apply the cloth to the blank with lathe at approximately 1800 RPMs. Rub back and forth on the blank until it starts to feel “tacky” and remove cloth immediately.
Wait 30-45 seconds.
Repeat step 5-6 eight times.
There should not be any major “ridges” on the blank. Wet sand finish the pen: Gently wet sand your blank with MM up to 12k grit. Alternatively you can gently wet sand to 2000 grit and use Woodcrafts four step turners polish.
Then buff with a Beall 3 wheel buffer.
  As you can see there are areas that you can modify to suit your own abilities with whatever tools and products you already have.  I am sure some of you will think of your own ways to modify this finishing process just like there are several CA finishing methods.


  We are looking forward to hearing back from your experiences with CC, and we would love to see your pictures of its uses.


  Thank You,
  Michael


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## Carl Fisher (Jan 28, 2014)

Ok, so it's basically the same application process as most CA finishes.  

Just needed to know a rough starting point for a baseline to work with.  Thanks!


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## Crashmph (Jan 28, 2014)

Carl Fisher said:


> Ok, so it's basically the same application process as most CA finishes.
> 
> Just needed to know a rough starting point for a baseline to work with.  Thanks!



Exactly Carl! CC is applied very similarly to CA. If you you take away the fumes, burned fingers, fingers stuck together, BLO, etc... 

And those reasons alone is why I like CC.  It works well dipping my wine stoppers too!

Michael


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## Dan Masshardt (Jan 28, 2014)

1800 is fast!   

No pressure on application then ? Apply like ca not friction polish. 

Do you wait substantially longer before sanding then between coats?

Thanks.


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## hewunch (Jan 28, 2014)

What is the gas off time? IOW, how long until the volatiles get stable or the finish "cures"?


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## Crashmph (Jan 28, 2014)

Dan Masshardt said:


> 1800 is fast!
> 
> No pressure on application then ? Apply like ca not friction polish.
> 
> ...



Just like a CA finish with regard to the pressure applied. YMMV...



hewunch said:


> What is the gas off time? IOW, how long until the volatiles get stable or the finish "cures"?



I have not experienced any "gas off" issues with CC.  I finish pens and assemble them rather quickly.  I have not had any adverse affects thus far. Nothing like the gas off of a CA finish.


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## Crashmph (Jan 28, 2014)

Also,

There is another thread started by William Menard with his recent experience with Call Coat.

Craft Coat and Call Coat are the exact same product manufactured by Eco  Advance.  Call Coat was the original name, but when Eco Advance learned of several  other uses of the product, the name was changed to Craft Coat, CC for  short.  Call Coat will eventually be phased out in favor of the Craft  Coat name.

Thanks,
Michael


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## Dan Masshardt (Jan 29, 2014)

Yes.


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## Crashmph (Jan 29, 2014)

Dan Masshardt said:


> Yes.



Well that was quick.


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## Carl Fisher (Jan 29, 2014)

I thought I saw that call coat was an oil base while craft coat was a water base.  Maybe I misread somewhere?


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## Crashmph (Jan 29, 2014)

Carl Fisher said:


> I thought I saw that call coat was an oil base while craft coat was a water base.  Maybe I misread somewhere?



Hi Carl,

Craft Coat and Call Coat are exactly same product.  When Rick, the owner, created the name Call Coat, he was only thinking of game calls.  He never was exposed to the possibilities of its uses with other products like the pens and things we make on lathes.  Rick has since re-branded Call Coat to Craft Coat and Call Coat will phase out over time.

If you do find a reference to show Call Coat is an oil based product, please forward me the linking information so that we may get it corrected.

Thank you,
Michael

*EDIT: To be technically correct, Call Coat and Craft Coat are "an oil-modified water-based urethane".*


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## Nellieteach (Jan 29, 2014)

My CC just arrived in the last half hour too.
Thanks Michael.  Will be using it over the next few days and posting my thoughts/results.
Nadine


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## Carl Fisher (Jan 29, 2014)

Sorry, I think I was misreading this line from the product page:

"Call-Coat is a clear, self-leveling oil modified waterborne urethane"

My fault :biggrin:

I did receive mine today.  I should be able to play with it some tomorrow.  Thanks!


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## Crashmph (Jan 29, 2014)

Look out folks!!!  CC is in the wild!  Have fun with it! :biggrin::biggrin:

I am pretty sure most of us on IAP are anxiously waiting to see your results.


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## The Penguin (Jan 29, 2014)

Mine arrived today...hopefully have some time to use it this weekend!


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## Crashmph (Jan 30, 2014)

Eco Advance has some customer pictures of duck calls finished with CC on Facebook. Here are some of the pictures from the duck calls.  These calls were dipped rather than friction finishing like most of us pen turners do.  And just for the record... these calls have the CC covering the Metal bands too!


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## MarkD (Jan 30, 2014)

Mine arrived yesterday


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## Crashmph (Jan 31, 2014)

*Attempt to quell any confusion*

Hi all,

There have been some questions about a water-based finish being used on pens and things. This post is only an attempt to quell any confusion about a water-based solvent.

You  have to have a "solvent" or dispersing mechanism for the URETHANE and  our "solvent" is water.  Thinking that you're basically MIXING plain  water with the Linseed Oil and putting it on the wood which could  undoubtedly have negative effects.  Our product contains a very small  amount of water, furthermore, the process we use creates a molecular  bond in which the oil molecules wrap themselves around the water-based  URETHANE droplets (which are the delivery mechanism).  The small amount  of water is essentially evaporated when it dries.  Our product actually  does less to "swell" the wood than a solvent based product and no more  than CA because of its quick dry and cure times.  Wood coated with Craft  Coat is 78% cured within the first 20 hours and there is no "outgasing"  like with other finishes . . . including CA.  Our product gives you the  benefits of an oil-based (OMU) and water-based urethane.

Companies  like Sherwin-Williams, Behr, and many others are using water-based  coatings, primers, and paints for METAL and wood.  As a matter of fact,  water-based coatings will raise the grain of the wood giving you a much  nicer finish.  The notion that "Water-based" is inferior is shared among  those who really aren't familiar with the modern advancements in  coatings technologies and nano-technology.

I hope this clears up any confusion.


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## Crashmph (Jan 31, 2014)

*Money Back Guarantee*

FYI... Eco Advance will offer a full money back guarantee (less shipping charges) for any customers dissatisfied with CC.

It looks like I failed to mention these details before, and I just wanted to make sure everyone was aware of the guarantee policy of Eco Advance.

Thanks,
Michael


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## Carl Fisher (Jan 31, 2014)

Itching to try it but it's been way too cold in the shop the last few nights.  Supposed to warm up this weekend and I'll be able to get out there and do some testing.


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## Crashmph (Jan 31, 2014)

I know the feeling.  If it were not for my propane heater I would not even make it to the shop.



Carl Fisher said:


> Itching to try it but it's been way too cold in the shop the last few nights.  Supposed to warm up this weekend and I'll be able to get out there and do some testing.


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## Ed McDonnell (Jan 31, 2014)

Got mine yesterday and gave it a try.  I had pretty much stopped using wood for pens because I wanted high gloss (with the superior grain detail / glow of an oil finish), a quick finish and I didn't want to deal with CA/BLO anymore.  CC seems like it has potential, but I haven't been able to get the results I'm looking for yet (after only one afternoon's trial).  Here's my thoughts after a couple of hours yesterday:

1) On closed grain wood it takes about 10 minutes to get a really high gloss finish on a pen blank sized piece of wood.  Most of that time is waiting time, but not enough time to do other things while you wait.  10 seconds application followed by 50 seconds of waiting...repeat 8 to 10 times.

2) On open grain wood, CC will not fill open grain.  I do not like high gloss finishes over unfilled grain where the unfilled grain (or other things that lead to a less than flawless gloss finish (e.g. tear out, tool marks, sanding marks...)) leave a "broken" plastic looking finish.  With CA, it was easy to QUICKLY fill open grain in a number of different ways.  While there are many ways to fill grain before application of CC, none of them are as quick as CA.  Sanding in the first coat of CC is not a good way to fill grain (unless maybe you wait a whole lot longer than I did before the second coat).  I intend to play around with this some more to see if I can find a way to speed up the grain filling process.

3) I like the way wood grain "pops" with the application of an oil finish (e.g. BLO / CA).  I also like the ambering an oil finish gives to lighter colored woods.   CC doesn't "pop" the grain.  On light woods, it doesn't show anywhere near the ambering of a BLO/CA finish.  CC on lighter woods look lifeless and pale to me.  It looks pretty good on darker woods, especially those that usually really (over) darken up with oil.

Trying to get a better look on lighter wood, I gave a blank a quick friction application of BLO.  Then applied the CC.  The CC did not adhere well to the BLO treated blank (their instructions clearly state the blank must be clean with no oils or such, but I had to try anyway).  CC did adhere well to oily wood (teak and rosewoods) that were wiped with DNA before application.

Application of shellac as a base coat is pretty common with water based finishes.  I did a few trials with shellac, and it seems like it might be able to significantly improve the look of CC with lighter woods (in my opinion anyway).  I also have some "ambering" dyes that I used when I sprayed my turnings with water based lacquer.  I plan to test those with the CC as well to see if I can get closer to the look I want in lighter woods.  I'm optimistic.

4) I didn't detect any smell with CC.  I didn't have any noticeable reaction after working with it for a couple of hours.  I did read the MSDS which sounded dire in places, but no worse than most of the other finishing products (and resins) that I work with every day.  

I wasn't happy enough with any of the test blanks to spend time taking pictures.  I turned off the finishes to get them ready for the next round of testing.

More results later....

Ed


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## Crashmph (Jan 31, 2014)

parklandturner said:


> 2) On open grain wood, CC will not fill open grain.  I do not like high gloss finishes over unfilled grain where the unfilled grain (or other things that lead to a less than flawless gloss finish (e.g. tear out, tool marks, sanding marks...)) leave a "broken" plastic looking finish.  With CA, it was easy to QUICKLY fill open grain in a number of different ways.  While there are many ways to fill grain before application of CC, none of them are as quick as CA.  Sanding in the first coat of CC is not a good way to fill grain (unless maybe you wait a whole lot longer than I did before the second coat).  I intend to play around with this some more to see if I can find a way to speed up the grain filling process.



Hi Ed,

Thank you very much for the information.  My experience has been much the same with regard to your second point.  I have mitigated the "broken" plastic effect by wet-sanding with Mylands Friction Polish at the 220-grit stage of sanding.  

I have been using this method of sanding on all of my open grained woods and any burls that could use some pit hole filling.  I then just sand the blank like I normally do for a smooth finish. My process is then followed up with the CC finish. YMMV, but this has worked well for me.


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## Nellieteach (Jan 31, 2014)

Try #1
*Note:* I had to smile when I looked at parklandturner’s comments and here I had just come from my shop having tried an open grained, light colored wood and he had posted his thoughts which were my findings too.

*Update on my first attempt at using CC*…I worked on a white oak modified slim line today. I never, in 15 years of turning, used white or red oak of any kind for a pen but I am being asked to make pens for a nearby university and they need to be out of white oak because their school song has “white oak” in the song and there are white oaks on campus. I am supposed to use wood from the trees they cut down on campus. So I thought I would try out the CC. Definitely agree with parklandturner, without some dye or stain, and grain filling CC isn’t going to be my choice of finish for white oak. White oak, as we know, is very light colored and the grain needs to pop, CC didn’t do that by itself. 

I will be removing the CC from the oak, using some BLO on the oak, then CA and then buffing it to show the university.

My CC trial is continuing…I have an elm burl and a resin/banksia pod waiting for me…will report on them next as far as my finishing with CC.

I noticed very little odor with the CC and applying it is very easy. No problems. I have used Enduro (now a General finish) over the years and this reminds me of using it in a lot of ways.

No picture of the oak…not taking a photo of something that needs tweaking and really nothing good or bad to see…just white oak, very unimpressive white oak. 
Off to my shop to try again with CC.

Nadine


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## edstreet (Jan 31, 2014)

To all those who are testing this product it would help greatly if someone gave it the washing machine test and perhaps dryer test as well.  No that was not a joke, sarcasm or the like and I am dead serious.


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## Dan Masshardt (Jan 31, 2014)

edstreet said:


> To all those who are testing this product it would help greatly if someone gave it the washing machine test and perhaps dryer test as well.  No that was not a joke, sarcasm or the like and I am dead serious.



I'll do it Ed.


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## William Menard (Feb 1, 2014)

Black Alligator Jawbone with Copper flakes, used craft coat, 3 coats...... Im satisfied. 3 coats 5 minutes apart and let dry 2 hours, then polished up with acrylic polish.


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## Crashmph (Feb 4, 2014)

Crashmph said:


> Eco Advance has some customer pictures of duck calls finished with CC on Facebook. Here are some of the pictures from the duck calls.  These calls were dipped rather than friction finishing like most of us pen turners do.  And just for the record... these calls have the CC covering the Metal bands too!
> 
> View attachment 108405 View attachment 108406



Hi All,

I was just informed this morning that this Call had been thrown in the air and allowed to impact the concrete, was  submerged in water for 24 hours, and was doused with insect repellent.  This was done all in an effort to simulate a duck hunting expedition.



Michael


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## Ed McDonnell (Feb 4, 2014)

Presumably that's the "after" picture?  :biggrin:


Ed


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## Crashmph (Feb 4, 2014)

parklandturner said:


> Presumably that's the "after" picture?  :biggrin:
> 
> Ed



You are correct Ed.  Thanks for clearing that up as I neglected to even mention it.  Blaming lack of coffee this morning. 

Additionally, in all fairness and full disclosure, that call was dipped rather than friction polished with CC.

Michael


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## edstreet (Feb 4, 2014)

have a before image because I am having a hard time finding the scuff mark where it impacted the concrete.


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## Crashmph (Feb 4, 2014)

edstreet said:


> have a before image because I am having a hard time finding the scuff mark where it impacted the concrete.



Hi Ed,

I have no other images as this was the only one sent in by a customer.  I agree about the not seeing a scuff mark comment for sure, but I do not have any other images to compare for before and after, only the after.

Michael


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## edstreet (Feb 4, 2014)

I was actually thinking the photo's were before shots for some reason.


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## Crashmph (Feb 4, 2014)

edstreet said:


> I was actually thinking the photo's were before shots for some reason.



We thought the same until the customer informed us that it had been under water for 24 hours and then he sprayed denatured alcohol on it.   The finish looks to have held up its end of the bargain for sure. 

Michael


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## Crashmph (Feb 4, 2014)

*Here is the actual review for the cocobolo call tested with CC*

Here is the actual review mentioned in earlier posts.  These comments and pictures were provided by a customer of ours.  I was able to find a second "after pic" to add to the collection.  I corrected an earlier post referring to insect repellent. I was confusing reviews from customers.

_"Ok Guys here are 2 more pics of some  cocobolo. This call doesn't have any  sanding sealer on it at all. The  finish is complete solid and is not  gummy. 

I have also done a  drop test from eye level (= 5'6") on  the concrete floor in my shop and  it didnt chip or crack. I then tossed  it up in the aid and let it drop  on the concrete. This time it dented  the flared part on the call below  the band and he a very small chip that  you couldn't hardly notice. 

2nd  test was I wiped denatured  alcohol on it. it took the shinny look off  the call and was a little  gummy for about 10 seconds and then it  hardened right back up. I was  able to take the call and put it on the  lathe and applied Novus #2 and  it polished right back up."_


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## Carl Fisher (Feb 4, 2014)

For the open grain issue, I don't have any on hand to test but what about using a paste grain filler (Bartley, Constantines, etc...)

You could even follow a standard flat stock process of shelac, grain filler, top coat which in this case would be CC.  It might be an extra step, but it would level out the wood to allow CC to give you a smooth even coating like CA would.


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## Crashmph (Feb 4, 2014)

Carl Fisher said:


> For the open grain issue, I don't have any on hand to test but what about using a paste grain filler (Bartley, Constantines, etc...)
> 
> You could even follow a standard flat stock process of shelac, grain filler, top coat which in this case would be CC.  It might be an extra step, but it would level out the wood to allow CC to give you a smooth even coating like CA would.



I don't see why that would not work.  Excellent idea.  

For me, on open grain wood, I wet sand with 220 and Mylands friction polish to fill in the grain with a sand dust and wax polish slurry. Then sand and finish as normal.  This process gives me a glass shine with out the "broken" plastic look that some have reported.

Michael


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## Carl Fisher (Feb 4, 2014)

I haven't seen the sheet on Mylands, but most friction polishes are shellac based.  Essentially you're making a slurry of shellac and sanding dust which becomes a grain filler so it sounds like both concepts are similar.


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## Ed McDonnell (Feb 4, 2014)

Hi Carl - Grain fillers (water and solvent based, fiber and clear) have worked fine with the CC for me in my recent testing.  But they do take extra time to allow the grain filler to fully cure before moving on to the CC.  As compared to most finishes, the extra time waiting is nothing unusual.  But in comparing CC to CA, spending extra time waiting for the grain filling step is not going to be a big selling point to a production pen turner who wants an alternative to a CA finish.

I don't have any friction polish around, but I had tried sanding with shellac to fill the grain before CC.  My first attempt didn't quite get it, but I suspect user error on my part.  I tried to sand in dust from a different kind of wood (I like the contrast I can get with this) and I goofed somwhere along the way.

I haven't had time to try shellac again, but I think it will work and it will be quick.  I don't think I would rely on friction polish under the CC because of the wax, but I may just be overly cautious about that.

Ed


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## MarkD (Feb 9, 2014)

I finally got a change to give this product a try. I turned some nice Red Cedar. I applied 5-6 coats of CC waiting about a minute between coats. I experienced no oder when using the product. The first thing I noticed is that the colors in the Red Cedar did not POP as they typically do with CA. I let the blank sit for an hour or so and then used micro mesh followed by plastic polish and buffing. The product provided a nice soft finish but not the high gloss of CA. 

Hope to try more in the near future.


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## Dan Masshardt (Feb 9, 2014)

I gave it a quick try the other day.  Application is very easy.  

I need to keep experimenting though.  I want more shine than I got on the first try.


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## LanceD (Feb 9, 2014)

I've just started turning a rod (fishing) handle out of BOW today and will try to have it completed in a day or two. Been feeling a little feverish and achy today and hope it's just a cold and not something worse. Can't wait to give the stuff a try.


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## lorbay (Feb 14, 2014)

Well I finally got my CC and have now given it a try. 1st impressions not good.
I was OK to apply not as fast as CA, I liked the low or hardly any odor.
But as others have said it does not pop the grain like CA as with most if not all water bourn finishes it does not have the richness of the non water bourn products.
The 1st two pictures are CA 8 coats and the 2nd two pictures are CC 12 coats.
I could not start my finishing on the CC after the 12 coats as it was too soft and had to wait overnight.
I am now doing a dipping method but this will take a little more time to get the coats on.
Oh just another FYI don't try to use plastic polish on it.DAMHIKT.

Lin.


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## alankulwicki7 (Feb 17, 2014)

I used CC on a few pens last week. Here's my review on CC:

I applied it very similar to my CA method with the exception of using BLO to pop the grain some.
I used 10-12 coats while turning on the lathe, waiting about a minute between coats. Once dry, I lightly sanded with 600 to smooth it out. After that I did 9 steps of Micromesh and a final polish with Novus 2. 
Some of the pluses were easy clean-up, no fumes and no sticky fingers.

Since I just finished the pens, I can't comment on the durability. 

The one thing I couldn't achieve was a super glossy finish. While the finish seemed to be clear of defects, I couldn't get the shine like CA. That won't stop my from using it but I'll just have to decide whether I want a semi gloss finish or a shiny finish.
I do plan on using CC on some stoppers and ornaments in the near future so I'm excited to see how it works on those items....


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## Crashmph (Feb 25, 2014)

alankulwicki7 said:


> I do plan on using CC on some stoppers and ornaments in the near future so I'm excited to see how it works on those items....



Thank you for your review.  Past experience with stoppers and ornaments have shown me that the dipping method worked very well.


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## Dan Masshardt (Feb 25, 2014)

I've only done a few with cc so far but hope do do several more and write some more in depth.  

I suspect that we will come up with some consensus on the product.  

Everyone seems to agree that the product is very easy to apply.  

It feels great.  

Getting the high shine is the question mark.  I'm wondering if buffing wheels may be the factor there.  

I haven't broken mine out yet, but will this week in the testing process. 

I found plastic polish to dull the finish.  

I used eee paste wax on the last one and got a good satin / slight gloss.    

By the way, I used the suggestion of using some mylands while sanding on open grain wood.  Works good.  I'll share more on this later.  

Have any of the other testers used buffing wheels yet?


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## Crashmph (Feb 25, 2014)

Since it has been rather cold in my shop recently... stupid winter... I have been experimenting with alternative methods of finishing with CC.

Here is what I have tried and seems to work out well for me, but takes a tad longer to do...


With the blank on the lathe or off, does not matter. Using      a paper towel or small piece of cotton cloth (I usually have 3"      squares stacked up of the stuff) wipe on a thin layer of CC lengthwise of      the blank. (I have been doing it off the lathe and in side the house since      it has been cold) If you are doing this off the lathe, I cannot stress      enough THIN layers.
Allow it to dry. Drying times vary depending on      temperature. In the winter, I have been doing this in the house since      there is almost no smell, and the drying times are faster inside the house      too. I usually do this when I have several pens to do, and it is less time      outside in the much colder shop. I have usually done this with 20-30 or      more pen single sections, (30 wall street II, 15 cigar pens, etc...). I      line them all up and start on one side; by the time I get to the last tube      I go back to the first tube to repeat the process for about 5-8 coats. 
After wiping on the finish and setting it to the side      to move to the next blank, I stand them up on end to keep them from laying      flat. I flip the blank on each coat so that the same end of the blank is      not always down.
I put the blank back on the lathe and lightly hit it      with 2000 grit dry and then finish normally, with my finishing steps.
 I only recently started doing this as it was really too cold to muck around in the shop longer than I really needed to.  In the last six weeks or so, I have finished about 80 pens with this method.  So far, it seems to work out well for me.


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## Ed McDonnell (Feb 25, 2014)

Now that I've wrapped up my bash activities I should have a chance to play around with the cc some more.  There are a lot of things I want to try with it.

Ed


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## Crashmph (Feb 25, 2014)

Dan Masshardt said:


> I'm wondering if buffing wheels may be the factor there.



Dan,

I use buffing wheels on all my finishes.  That may be where I am getting the higher gloss shine others are not seeing.  I am only do in a light buffing on the blanks too.

Michael


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## Dan Masshardt (Feb 25, 2014)

Crashmph said:


> Dan,  I use buffing wheels on all my finishes.  That may be where I am getting the higher gloss shine others are not seeing.  I am only do in a light buffing on the blanks too.  Michael



This is my hypothesis. I will test it.


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## Ed McDonnell (Feb 25, 2014)

If CC is like a water based lacquer (and I suspect it it) it would help to let the finish cure for a couple days before buffing / final polishing.

Ed


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## NittanyLion (Feb 25, 2014)

I'm fortunate enough to have been given a sample by a good friend on here to try out.  I've used it on two pens and feel very good.  The level of shine I am able to achieve is very close to CA.  The biggest thing missing is the depth of the shine, but with little thickness, that is to be expected.

I played around with different finishing techniques.  The best for me was by use of cloth type micro mesh.  I believe it's from CSUSA.  I could not get the same results with foam backed MM, getting a duller shine.  I used it at high speed, no backing, just my fingers, and only for about 5 seconds per sheet.  For application, 10-12 coats....about 5 seconds back and forth(though some were double coats where I would re-apply more).  At least a minute between coats, sometimes 5.  I then waited 2 hours to MM.  

I do question the durability.....only because It is water based.  

Hope this helps.


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## Crashmph (Mar 7, 2014)

Hi all,

Now that we are into March and the bash is settling down, I would love to see some of your results with CC.  To the winners of the CC packages, please give it a shot and post your results when you get some time. 

Also, now that we are going to have CC in 6oz and 2oz bottles with some of our favorite venders on IAP, I guess I should post a picture of the new bottles.


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## kronewi (Mar 7, 2014)

Which vendors are carrying it? I would like to give it a try.


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## Dan Masshardt (Mar 7, 2014)

Micheal - in working on some putting some more thoughts together.  

My impression is that this product is one for which small differences in process can result in a fairly substantial difference in final finish.


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## Crashmph (Mar 8, 2014)

kronewi said:


> Which vendors are carrying it? I would like to give it a try.



More to follow. We are working out the details with venders now. 



Dan Masshardt said:


> Micheal - in working on some putting some more thoughts together.
> 
> My impression is that this product is one for which small differences in process can result in a fairly substantial difference in final finish.




You are right Dan. Experimenting with CC is the best advice I can give. Once you get a process down, you can get awesome results. 

Michael


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## OKLAHOMAN (Mar 8, 2014)

We are expecting our first shipment early next week:bananen_smilies051:


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## Heartwoodturning (Oct 12, 2015)

I haven't much time today to do a detailed review.  I will though.  I used this for the first time yesterday on Wenge.  I put on multiple layers and I was impressed by the finish.  I hate the the way ca glue hurts my eyes, sticks to everything in the world and makes my nose run.  I don't have to wear a mask when I use this. Best finish I've used yet.


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## crashgtr (Dec 19, 2015)

Does anyone have any updates on this thread? How is the finish holding up?


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## keithlong (Dec 19, 2015)

I would love a sample myelf. I make several freedom pens and I like to put a CA finish on them for durability. CA is getting to be a little more expensive and my personal liking is to put a good durable finish on my pens. I would like to try it on a pen and handle the pen a lot to try it out.


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## duncsuss (Dec 20, 2015)

keithlong said:


> I would love a sample myelf. I make several freedom pens and I like to put a CA finish on them for durability. CA is getting to be a little more expensive and my personal liking is to put a good durable finish on my pens. I would like to try it on a pen and handle the pen a lot to try it out.



Both Roy and Ed have it available, it's not expensive ... Classic Nib: Craft Coat 2oz or Exotic Blanks: Craft Coat 2oz


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## keithlong (Dec 20, 2015)

thanks, ill definately give it a try. Will place an order after the holidays.


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## Crashmph (Dec 20, 2015)

CC has Ben used by quite a few people now. The finish is holding up quite nicely on pens I have sold. I had a pen a little over a year old brought back for a refill. The finish still looked like new with a high gloss on it.


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## endacoz (Jan 27, 2016)

Dan Masshardt said:


> I gave it a quick try the other day.  Application is very easy.
> 
> I need to keep experimenting though.  I want more shine than I got on the first try.



Dan,  I'd love your updated review. 

Pens plus vs craft coat


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## Dan Masshardt (Jan 27, 2016)

endacoz said:


> Dan,  I'd love your updated review.  Pens plus vs craft coat



Wow - haven't seen this in awhile.  I found craft coat to be similar to wood turners finish but I think a bit better.  

It's a whole different type of finish from
Pens plus though.  

I like having a couple finishing methods ready to use.  For me it's ca and pens plus when it comes to pens.   

But I do believe craft coat to be a high quality product and I'd recommend it, Even though I don't really use it.


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## endacoz (Jan 28, 2016)

Thanks dan!


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## kyaggie (Jan 28, 2016)

My goto finish now is to do a soaking coat of thin CA, then sanding down with a 500 grit Abralon pad and then 5 to 6 coats of Craft Coat (with 1 minute between coats). The CA gives a nice hard base as well as really making the grain and color "pop." The Craft Coat then gives a very durable, hard, water resistant high gloss finish without the "plastic" look of CA.

Here are some recent utensils, mills and a Desire fountain pen using this method.

Mike


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