# Elusive $250.00 pen II



## ctEaglesc (Oct 7, 2006)

Recently Mesquiteman posted he had made his first $200.00 sale, Again congratulations!
http://www.penturners.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=17926&SearchTerms=I,sold
It's been over a year since the original thread was started by D.C. bluesman, The elusive $250.00 pen.
http://www.penturners.org/forum/top...C_ID=6736&whichpage=1&SearchTerms=elusive,pen

In the year and some months that have passed, the membership of this forum has changed and there may very well be some who would find the original post interesting but didn't know it existed.
For me I really don't have an idea as to what any ONE $250.00 pen would look like that would be made by one of us.
I have seen some that cost more based on the materials used and method such as the work done by Bruce Boone.
As for myself I recently had the opportunity to go to the D.C. fountain pen show and had the opportunity/privilege to see the works of art that could also be called pens by the Gisi's, Mark and Brian.
After spending many hours in my shop and a lot of saw dust and chips go out the door I am only a little less confused about this subject than I was in May/June of 2005 when the original thread was started.
Since we have had a change in membership both additions and subtractions I'd like to see a dialog similar to the original posted started again since that post is locked.
I read the original post this morn while I had my pot of coffee(it's a long thread with no flames so it is an enjoyable read.)
Well anyway lets hear your thoughts on what you think would constitute the $250.00+ pen.
The selection of kits has increased some fairly expensive and inflation has also taken its' toll so I am adding an arbitrary+ sign to the amount of the pen in question.
For those who posted in the original thread, has your perspective changed?


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## Marc Phillips (Oct 7, 2006)

What would constitute a $250 pen.... very interesting indeed...

I have a sales and marketing background, albeit brief in the span of my life, and that will heavily influence my response... I can't help it; I have seen what effective salesmanship and marketing/presentation can accomplish.

Some of the pens I have seen here on this site, presented to the right market, with the proper presentation and with an effective salesperson would command at least $250 in my opinion...

The quality of the pen parts, the craftsmanship in the creation of the pen, the finish, the styling, the feel, the balance, etc. all play a very important role of course... you would be hard pressed to sell a regular slimline made with oak for $250 ... 

That being said, there can be a huge jump in selling price with the addition of a couple of factors... uniqueness and personization... The uniqueness can be ramped up with a good presentation... i.e. telling a potential customer "This pen is made with BOW" as opposed to telling them "the wood for this pen came from Bethlehem, and is approximately XXX years old" etc.. with go a lot farther toward ramping up the price of the pen. 
Personalizing a product also makes the price go up... most would pay more for a pen with their name on it eh... 

Sooo... a beautiful pen, such as I have seen here several times, displayed with style, great lighting, in the proper arena (i.e. the local flea market ain't gonna cut it eh) and the right potential clients and an effective salesperson who knows how to get the customer excited about the pen and has the ability to "close" the sale would all combine to get $250 for a pen....

I am slowly working my way up the ladder as far as pen components are concerned... and gaining experience with every pen I make. I have entertained the idea of selling some pens, but really haven't made any effort towards that end as of yet... 

I also want to thank you all... all the information and comments available here help me tremendously... []

.... anyhoo... that's my opinion []


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## btboone (Oct 7, 2006)

Check out Johnathan's pens.  http://www.giovannipens.com/  They are $1900, and he can't keep 
up with the things.  They have hand painting, very tastefully done, and are kit pens.  
A lot has to do with presentation and knowing your customer.  Chris Higdon and others regularly sell them in the $200 to $300 range.  He knows a guy that just sold $20K worth of pens at a single show.  Given the right setting and presentation is what it's all about.  Obviously the quality has to be dead nuts, but the way to market pens for more money has more to do with the market and perceived quality and value and not as much the pen and materials.  If you were to put your finest pens in the Robb Report and market them correctly, they would certainly bring in 4 digits.


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## Dario (Oct 7, 2006)

I am not sure it is elusive anymore.  If memory serves me right, I've heard/saw/read a few people here who've broken that barrier....with a few plus signs actually.

I believe uniqueness is the key...and tapping the right market.  That said, I am no an authority having sold only a handful of pens [:I]


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## RussFairfield (Oct 7, 2006)

Nothing has changed since the last time. I still agree with what Lou said, what Anthony said, and with what I said. If anyone wants to read what I said then, they can go to the link in Eagles message.


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## ctEaglesc (Oct 7, 2006)

Russ I respectufully disagree with part of what you said or at least make a clarification as I see it.
When you said we need to start thinking of terms of small machine lathes etc while that may be true if we are to have total design freedom, when I did my herringbone pen everything from the Gent kit was used or omitted(no machined parts were added) and the modifications were made on a standard wood working lathe both a JET mini and a Rikon.I used the same chisels I used for wood antler and acrylics.I am not saying it is the best method but it worked.
The key was I either hid or altered the final appearance of the pen.The only component that showed when I was done was the clip.This fountain pen is in my album.
I bring this up only because after seeing some of the work the GISIs' displayed I unknowingly developed the same modifications they did and at least one of their designs is based around the "guts" of a Gentleman fountain pen.<b>I am not in anyway putting myself in their caliber of craftsmenship</b>.
SO
Now that the stumbling block of the need to machine our own components on a machine lathe is dealt with, what else?


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## RussFairfield (Oct 7, 2006)

No argument. There are many ways to go beyond the kit pen into the class  of the $250+ pen. Making our own parts to replace those of the kit is only one of many ways to get there.

Personally, I have found the $250 market to be small, very selective, and not very profitable.


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## chigdon (Oct 7, 2006)

I think there is a way to make money in different markets at different prices.  I try to sell almost exclusively in a high end market.  I agree 100% with what Marc said and I think Jonathon's website is a good indication of what can be done with a 'kit' pen.  I also think there are a lot of people in a high end market who will pay for a quality, hand created everyday pen so they don't necessarily have to be fountain pens.  I actually rarely sell fountains.

I think the biggest stumbling block a lot of people seem to have is we are not selling to each other.  Don't try to sell me a $250 or $500 or $750 or . . . pen.  I don't have the money and I am not going to pay that.  But also don't tell me there aren't people out there who won't pay $200-250 or more for these pens, including rollerballs, $&(^* even including ballpoints.  The more premium kits have every ability to get much much more than that.

I almost didn't even jump into this discussion again.  It just is interesting to see some people saying that they are already getting these kinds of prices and others saying you can't get these prices.  It can be done as there are a number of us here already doing it.


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## woodbutcher (Oct 7, 2006)

I sold a slimline titanium gold while in Philly about 8 weeks ago. The price for that pen was 250.00. I seldom sell anything for under 50.00 I never go near flea markets or craft shows. I sell art and writing instruments. Never turnings or pens. Selling in my immediate area is possible but not practical. Monetary limits. If I travel 150 miles from where I live my 40.00 pen becomes a 150.00+ writing instrument. So the good stuff stays here and the great stuff goes out of town. When I leave home my pens always go with me. It's amazing how easy they sell, particularly in the next couple months. Christmas shopping has already begun. I have seen some real art on this website. My work is no better than most I have seen here. What Marc Phillips wrote in my opinion is dead on. Have faith in yourselves and in your product. It really does make a difference. Good luck to all,
Jim[]


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## PenWorks (Oct 8, 2006)

Eagle, you should have adjusted for inflation and increase in materials...say about $300.00 []

You need, fine craftsmenship & materials, the right marketing and salesmenship. Then any $$$ amount is possible.

When I came out with my Amber Ripple Limited Edition about a year ago, I limited it to 100 pieces. My expectations were that, I would probablly sell about 25 total over the years and that was my goal and I would be content with that. Well, I have already sold 25 in just over a year. So now, the price is going up Jan 1st to $350.00 and I will be disappointed if I do not sell 35 more this year.


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## ctEaglesc (Oct 8, 2006)

> Eagle, you should have adjusted for inflation and increase in materials...say about $300.00



You're right Anthony.
When I read the original thread started by D.C., I took the premise of the thread to mean high end (price tag) pens and Lou used $250.00 as an arbitrary number.It very well could have been $500.00.
My main reason for posting this thread was because of the influx of new members in the last 15 months since the original thread was started.
I also took it for granted  someone who was not familiar with the original thread would click the link and read what was posted a year ago.
I responded top the first thread but really had no idea as to what was being discussed because most of it pertained to fountain pens and at the time I had no inteerset in mkaing them.
My position has changed.
I have my own theories as to what makes this "elusive" dollar amount pen and I wanted to see if others have similar ideas but more importantly what other input I could gather.
Fine craftsmanship should go without saying. Materials as in "fine materials" might be up for debate.
One more thing to consider. If it takes 500 hours to make a $250.00 dollar pen the craftsman is working for 50 cents an hour._ In that case he may as well turn an acrylic slimline and sell it for $25.00(providing it doesn't take him 50 hours)_[]


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## Randy_ (Oct 9, 2006)

> _Originally posted by btboone_
> <br />Check out Johnathan's pens.....They have <b>hand painting</b>, very tastefully done, and are kit pens.  A lot has to do with presentation and <b>knowing your customer</b>.....



Anyone know if Johnathan paints his own pens or does he contract it out to an artist??

It helps a great deal if one is able to seek out customers with very deep pockets!!


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## PenWorks (Oct 9, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Randy__
> <br />
> 
> 
> ...



Just another one of his many talents, he paints his own.
I do not think there are numbers under the snake either []


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## PenWorks (Oct 28, 2006)

I thought this was interesting, this post is not meant to be a gloat, but fact.
This was a email I recieved from a new pen client in NY, who just purchased his 2nd Penchetta and is a collecter as well well as daily FP user. It is pretty hard to hawk $200-500 fountain pens in my area to the local Creekers even though most are well off and have more than enough disposable income. Wether it is mine or a name brand pen. But his email set me back, given his area and what he percieves as value.

Thank you

The pen arrived   BEAUTIFUL    tip similar to last I think they will be 
fine.

I am happy to say it the pen and workmanship are worth much more than 
the $295.   I think the pens should sell for about $500.

I am very pleased  

So it goes without saying, your market place has a lot more to do with your price range, than your pen.


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## its_virgil (Oct 28, 2006)

No wonder my searching for "paint-by-number" pen blanks has turned up a dry hole. I thought you guys were holding out on me.
Do a good turn daily!
Don




> _Originally posted by PenWorks_
> <br />
> I do not think there are numbers under the snake either []


[]


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## SteveRoberts (Oct 28, 2006)

Ok, at the risk of being too opinionated, I feel and feel strongly that SELLING a pen for $250 or $500 or $750 or over $1,000, all of which I have done. Is MUCH more about selling that it is about the pen.

The pen has to justify the price to an extent but that extent is not more than 20-25% as far as I am concerned. Value and cost aren't figured in simple readily quantified terms. There are many subtle factors. I can't teach anyone how to sell, That is an art unto itself. The buyer of a high end pen is seeking something beyond the object itself, it is knowing that, in providing that, that you can commmand (not ask for) much higher prices for your work and results.

A pen need not be hugely complex or involved to bring big bucks, your time invested isn't enough either. Maybe you take a long time to do a mediocre job or a short time to do an excellent one, that is very individual.

I will say this, the toughest part of selling a high end pen ( I sell pens over $250 nearly EVERY weekend. It is rare, very rare when I don't) is finding the people who buy them. Here is a hint, if the parking lot is filled with cars that need washing and cost under $15,000, you are probably not in the right place.


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## Firefyter-emt (Oct 28, 2006)

A friend of mine brought me a catalog from "Fahrney's Pens" Dang if seems like just about every pen is over the $500 mark They have "our pens" in there as well. Pg 37 Jr. Gent on sale for $239.00, Pg 41 they have a gold cigar (with wood from a ball park) for $140.00 and the Emperor for $500.00. Now granted, some of them are amazing.. but on the back cover is a pen with a price tag of $4500.00.

My point is just that my friend, (who is still holding on to a slim line to my dislike) [:I] brought this over to tell me how I might want to raise my prices!  []

Now I am not setting my hopes on a $250 sale any time soon, but it sure seems like we are playing in the low end of things. If you have the right market I would put money on a bet that there are shoppers who buy from that catalog that would put their nose in the air and walk past many of out finest just because none of the pens had a price tag over $250.00


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## Chuck B (Oct 29, 2006)

I think that there are a lot of Master pen makers here. One pen that I absolutey love is Eagles "Stained glass pen" also there are to many others that I would be privleged to own. Russ Fairfield is one. I have 2 his videos& they have helped me immensely. Also asking my newbie questions I have received exact & expert answers. I do agree that flea markets are for low end stuff but a Art Gallery type place can & will sell many of the pens that lot of you expert pen makers that are here to people with a lot of disposable income. 

Also in regards to the $250,000 Jade pen that someone made.
I personally don't like it it looks cheap to me but then aain I don't like Jade. I can appreciate the craftsmanship it took to make the pen The exact attention to detail. 

Chuck


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## jeffj13 (Oct 29, 2006)

I'm just a newbie, with only a couple of sales and none over $50, so feel free to discount my remarks, but I don't think that selling high priced pens has much to do with the pen (provided of course that it is made with quality parts and looks nice).

I think selling high priced pens involves two things:

1.  Finding someone who has money they don't need.
2.  Having the nerve to say "That one?  That one only costs $300."

jeff


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## SteveRoberts (Oct 29, 2006)

<b>"out of the mouths of babes"</b>

There are more things Jeff, but those are really good points.

Steve


> _Originally posted by jeffj13_
> <br />I'm just a newbie, with only a couple of sales and none over $50, so feel free to discount my remarks, but I don't think that selling high priced pens has much to do with the pen (provided of course that it is made with quality parts and looks nice).
> 
> I think selling high priced pens involves two things:
> ...


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## TellicoTurning (Oct 29, 2006)

Have any of you ever been to the Art Brown International Pen shop site... its at http://www.artbrown.com/  I think they are out of NYC.. he sells all of the name brand pens for prices that range from $50 to about $3700.. these are not hand turned pens, I'm sure they are production stuff, but in reality, most do not look as good as some of the pens I've seen on this site... I know that I can buy the blank materials that many are made from.. and while I would love to sell a $3700 pen, I don't plan to hold my breath until I do... I have sold a few at $100, but few move over that.


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## wpenm (Oct 29, 2006)

The $500.00 FP is within reach for all of us if we use good sales techniques. The Emperor FP also known in the Fahrney Catalog as the Grand Slam is just one of 15 or so that I have made for them. They just ordered another two last week. I have also made some key rings and a few Slimline pens for Art Brown International. I am not a salesman, just a woodworker for the last 32 years, but I was lucky enough to be contacted by a baseball enthusiast and entrepreneur with vision. He has kept my wife and I busy for over a year now. We have also had the Grand Slam in the Pen World Magazine, September 2006 Page 18. What I am trying to say is that with the talent I see here, it is very possible to reach the goal of a high quality and high end pen.


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## chisel (Oct 29, 2006)

> _Originally posted by RussFairfield_
> <br />Nothing has changed since the last time.



A few things have changed. 

Anthony has made solid gold nibs widely available for a number of kits.

Craft Supplies USA has made some very nice, and expensive kits available. 

Those two things have made it possible for some people break through into a more selective market.


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## Firefyter-emt (Oct 29, 2006)

Ahhh, Gary.. I was curious who was their "supplier" for those pens. Nice job!  []


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## Rifleman1776 (Oct 29, 2006)

Anthony said: "You need, fine craftsmenship & materials, the right marketing and salesmenship." I would add to that that you also need the right MARKET. You won't sell custom pens to poor folks at anything above give-a-way prices.
A speciality pen shop in Little Rock regularly sells pens in the thousands. I have seen his high priced stuff and am not impressed. They are synthetic that he calls "laquer". It is his clientle that makes those prices possible. One is a lawyer who buys himself a high priced pen every time he wins a case. Some (at this forum, if I remember correctly) said he sold a pen to a Las Vegas gift shop for $250.00 and it quickly resold for $3000.00. It's not always WHAT you are selling but HOW and to WHOM that sets prices.


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## redfishsc (Oct 30, 2006)

excellent discussion here folks, very good reading. 


My $.02, if it's worth a nickel--

I would rather make 5 Emperors and pocket $50 net on each than struggle outright to sell one at $250 net profit.


Being more of a pen maker and gift giver than a seller, (though once I get moved into the new place and settle, that changes!) I would guess part of the high-end equation is the following:


1) As your skill level and knowledge increase, so does your price tag. 

2) As your experience in selling and getting to know your customer base goes up, so does your price tag. 

3) As your reputation grows, so does your price tag. 

4) So long as your price tag doesn't grow too obese for your market, your volume should go up as #1, 2, and 3 go up. 


The founder of Chick-Fil-A, S. Truett Cathy started out as a teenager selling cokes on a bicycle route, if I'm not mistaken. 

Lol, now he gets $1.50 for a large coke-- to the tune of about $1.35 profit per coke---- multiplied by a few million each day. Not to mention the s-----weeeeeeet chicken sandwiches. 


His motto in his book, "It's Easier to Succeed than to Fail" is the following

1) Save 10%
2) Give 10% (to your church)
3) Work 10% harder.


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## chigdon (Oct 30, 2006)

I would agree with what Frank said.  The one thing though that I hear a lot here is people saying that there is no market where they live.  I am spoiled by living in a relatively affluent major metropolitan area but if I didn't I would sell in one.  If you live in the middle of the country 200 miles from the nearest large city then your market is probably waiting for you about 200 miles away.


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## Scott (Oct 30, 2006)

Well, my expertise is NOT in making and selling $250 pens!  If I ever have the pure random luck to make a pen that would be worth that much, I keep it myself as a reminder that sometimes things DO go right!  [8D]

Rather, I would give you my perspective from the buying side.  I have acquired this nasty habit of buying fountain pens lately, although nothing real expensive yet.

First, be innovative!  Making a kit pen out of a pen kit is not innovative.  If you use pen kits, bu judicious in how you use them.

Second, be skillful.  Even the coolest design is for naught if you can't put it all together without any mistakes!

Third, have confidence in what you do!  Most people who make pens do not appreciate their own work!  Be proud of the pens you make, or you will never be able to make somebody proud of the pen they buy!

Last, be a salesman!  If you can't be a salesman, then turn that part over to someone who can.  Selling pens for larger sums is mostly about the "Selling".  This includes finding your market, then making your pens irresistable to that merket.

One little hint that Russ gave me years ago is that if you intend to sell high priced fountain pens, then learn about the use of fountain pens.  Get your own fountain pen and use it!  Learn the terminology.  Buy yourself a nice commercial fountain pen and see what the competition consists of.  Most people that sink $250+ into a pen are buying fountain pens.  You will not be able to sell to them unless you know as much as they do about their favorite subject - fountain pens!  Unfortunately it is this last part that has gotten me to the point where I now buy more pens than I make!  [B)]

Scott.


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