# Well...... crud!



## Texatdurango (May 13, 2010)

I am spending some time designing my new shop and thought I would go ahead and start with a good dust collection system so based on what Curtis and others have had to say about the Clear Vue Cyclone I thought about going with that system.

The only problem is that they are going out of business and have nothing to sell so it's back to researching the web in hopes of finding another suitable system.

I plan on visiting Onida, Penn State and Grizzly to see what they have to offer *BUT* if anyone has already taken the time and trouble of researching different systems I would really appreciate hearing what you might recommend!

To be clear, I am looking for a total shop *dust *collection system not a shop vac or portable bag system which can be rolled from machine to machine that sucks up mainly shavings and small chips.  I am looking for a system that will move enough air to catch the crap that would end up in my lungs since I have a broom and shop vac that can pick up the bigger stuff.

Any thoughts?  Anyone have any of the Onida systems that you would like to share some thoughts on?

My shop winds up having the main "dust generating room" being around 32x 20 so that is what I plan on ducting.


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## Russianwolf (May 13, 2010)

how much air did you want to move????

http://cgi.ebay.com/Used-Baghouse-D...ultDomain_0&hash=item2ea7b7d71c#ht_909wt_1165


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## TomW (May 13, 2010)

Russianwolf said:


> how much air did you want to move????
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/Used-Baghouse-D...ultDomain_0&hash=item2ea7b7d71c#ht_909wt_1165



:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:


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## jskeen (May 13, 2010)

A LOT!  But not quite that much.........You better plan on running at least 6 inch feeders and 8 inch trunks if possible, you really want to keep that crap out of your lungs.  There are specified engineering formula's for how much air you need to keep fine dust out of a given area, and how big a feeder you need to get that much air at a given pressure.  I'll see if I can find a calculator for it.


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## Russianwolf (May 13, 2010)

James, I think 8 inch trunks may be too restrictive for the system I linked to....... :tongue:

Seriously, You may want to consider doing what I am. My basement is my shop. All 900 square feet of it. It's to much room for most of the air cleaners to handle and a bitch to heat too. So I am cutting it up into smaller rooms with dedicated tasks (one for the lathe, another for finishing, one larger one with the tablesaw, etc.), then I can concentrate the collector/cleaner in the room I'm in and be a lot more effective.


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## wolftat (May 13, 2010)

Onida has a very user friendly system to help design a dust removal system for your shop. I am also inn the process of upgrading to a 630sq.ft. shop and am planning on using one of their collectors.


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## Mark (May 13, 2010)

That's a great idea Mike. Minimize the space you need to filter. 
Do you have a dedicated dust free zone for the recliner and frig.? :biggrin:


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## Steve Busey (May 13, 2010)

It's on the other side of town from you, but looks like it packs some wind power.

http://dallas.craigslist.org/dal/tls/1707460057.html


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## Crashmph (May 13, 2010)

Luckily, I recently purchased a ClearVue Cyclone system.  After looking at it, I could probably build another for about the same cost.  Look at the instructions for the assembly of the ClearVue system.  You should be able to build your own.  You can find the a quality 5HP motor for about $400-500 and the rest can realisticly be built for less than 500.  I will send you lots of documentation, pictures, and measurements of mine if you want.

Michael


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## workinforwood (May 13, 2010)

The PSI systems look pretty good to me.  Although I don't care for them as a whole, they started out as dust collection I think, and they have nice looking set ups.  A double hopper would be the best..the first one is you big chip collector and the second stage is for your dust.  Regardless what you buy, you generally need to upgrade the micron bag from the stock bag that comes with it..not always, but usually that is the case.  The great thing about PSI dust systems is that they have been in business a long time with those and they have the upgraded filters that fit their equipment.  I am not a dust collector expert, but I still believe you can more than adequately filter your shop with standard 5" pipes.  Unless you have some whopper equipment that is.  Most anything that runs on regular 220 probably isn't putting out enough dust and chips that you need more than 5" ..only thing I can think of would be a monster planer or maybe a big jointer.  If you plain or joint a lot you need more suction and air volume to prevent clogs.  A lathe is not going to be a problem.


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## Texatdurango (May 13, 2010)

Yes, I am after a pretty good system. Aside from turning, I also have been making furniture and larger projects for the past 30 years. Here is a chest of drawers I built a couple years ago from mahogony and a shot of the matching dresser coming along. We will be moving soon so not only do I have to build a new shop, I'll also be busy making lots of new furniture and building an outside entertainment area so I can see a LOT of dust coming my way!  Now's the perfect time to do it right!

I called Onieda and talked with a nice lady who said to send them a layout of the shop showing where my major tools will be and they'll do a layout for me showing a ducted system.


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## wood-of-1kind (May 13, 2010)

George, that is some great looking furniture that you make. Talented pen designer/maker... no fair. You have been blessed with 'too' many gifts. : )


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## Jgrden (May 13, 2010)

Texatdurango said:


> Yes, I am after a pretty good system. Aside from turning, I also have been making furniture and larger projects for the past 30 years. Here is a chest of drawers I built a couple years ago from mahogony and a shot of the matching dresser coming along. We will be moving soon so not only do I have to build a new shop, I'll also be busy making lots of new furniture and building an outside entertainment area so I can see a LOT of dust coming my way!  Now's the perfect time to do it right!
> 
> I called Onieda and talked with a nice lady who said to send them a layout of the shop showing where my major tools will be and they'll do a layout for me showing a ducted system.


Hey, that is some pretty nice stuff.


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## glycerine (May 13, 2010)

I've been looking into dust collection as well and there is so much info out there on DIY, I've been thinking of making my own.  I think most of the performance will depend on the filter that you use.  Other than that, the oneida gorilla line looks pretty good, but I have no personal experience with them, so I can't say much...


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## purplehaze (May 13, 2010)

*dust*

Bill Pentz is selling a metal version of the clearview on his site.


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## Fred (May 14, 2010)

Here is a link to Bill Pentz's web page. He is indeed the 'mack daddy' whenever you have questions concerning anything to do with dust collection. :biggrin:

http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/index.cfm


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## Texatdurango (May 17, 2010)

Crashmph said:


> Luckily, I recently purchased a ClearVue Cyclone system. After looking at it, I could probably build another for about the same cost. Look at the instructions for the assembly of the ClearVue system. You should be able to build your own. You can find the a quality 5HP motor for about $400-500 and the rest can realisticly be built for less than 500. I will send you lots of documentation, pictures, and measurements of mine if you want.
> 
> Michael


 
Thanks for the offer of assistance but with all I have going on right now, I can't imagine taking on the chore of making my own cyclone.  I read in Bill Pentz' site where a vendor was offering a 5hp Leeson motor for $343 so I would imagine a realistic build cost of well under $1000.

So what would you sell a completed cyclone for?  Looks like Wolftat is looking also, could we entice you to go into production?


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## rherrell (May 18, 2010)

I have the Oneida Dust Gorilla and absolutely love it. It's worked flawless for four years and has PLENTY of power. In fact, if you forget to turn it off when parting something off, it's GONE! I've had to recover many an item from the dust bin.
If you get one I highly recommend getting the "Bag Gripper". It's a vacuum system that fits in the waste barrel and allows you to use plastic bags to catch all the waste. I can't even imagine having to empty the bin all the time.
Also, get a floor sweep. That way when you clean up:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl: you can just sweep everything into it and SWOOSH, it's gone!!

They're customer service is top notch and like you said, if you send them a shop layout they'll design a system for you. That's what I did.
Check out my photos in the "SHOP SHOTS" section and you can see more of my system.:wink:


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## bitshird (May 18, 2010)

George I got an Oneida cyclone from Woodcraft for 100.00 I keep it hooked up right behind my pen lathe . it's great, BUT the problem is the exhaust from my Huge Shop Vac might not be catching or actually dispersing the submicron dust, but the cyclone sure catches some fine powder in the bucket. I'm going to use a different shopvac with a bag and a HEPA filter.


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## Texatdurango (May 18, 2010)

purplehaze said:


> Bill Pentz is selling a metal version of the clearview on his site.


 

Thanks for the PM, I did visit Bill's site and after a LOT of thinking, came up with the following estimate as to what it would cost to make my own system:

$679 - cyclone kit and blower kit shipped
$377 - Leeson 5 hp motor shipped
$100 - estimate for a 14" impeller, I sent an email for price but no response yet
$400 - 13" x 39" Hepa filter and attaching hardware
$150 - Electrical components, wall or floor mount components, lower dust bin and misc. supplies such as rivets, solder, etc.
To the $1706 cost above, I would estimate approx 20 hours fabrication time.

The alternative would be to purchase the *Oneida V System 3000 HEPA* cyclone which comes with the above Hepa filter, 3 HP motor, stand and is ready to un-box and erect for $1,329 shipped. Ducting cost would be the same regardless of which system I used.

So...... $1706 and 20 hours of work for a 5 hp system or $1329 and no work for a 3 hp system. Since I will be a one man shop and rarely have a need for more than one open gate at once, the need for the additional h/p is not a factor. After writing all this down, it is becoming clearer which path to take! 

Am I thinking straight?


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## Padre (May 18, 2010)

Wow.  I have the Clearview and I am surprised they are going out of business.  I guess the economy has done another great (small) company in.  That's sad, I love my cyclone and it runs great.


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## Daniel (May 18, 2010)

George, Since you already know enough to have made the decision for the clearview. then I assume you are looking for dust collection and not just a great price. I also assume there is a lot more to effective dust collection than just someone saying there stuff sucks lol.
So assuming you have a better than average understanding of what it takes to reaaly collect dust I will say that yes I have done my homework beyond the Clearview. THe closest dust collector I found from suppliers at that time (Couple years ago) was the 2HP 12 inch impellor 220 volt Penn State Tempest. http://www.pennstateind.com/store/TEMPEST.html?mybuyscid=4425434646

It does not have everything and I can recall right off the top of my head these weak points.
1. 12 rather than 14 inch impellor
2. the entry port needs to be rectangular not round.
3. no air ramp but that can be added
4. the ratio of tube length to funnel is a tad short.
5. woudl be better with canister filters 
pluses
1.6" inlet
2. 2 HP
3. true neutral vein when assembled correctly. you have to install the part that makes it neutral vein so know what you are doing to get it right.
4. heavier metal than you could use by making your own
5. fits under an 8 foot ceiling
great price when compared to the DC's that are just a tad bit better.



I did buy it and have used it in my shop for the last two years. Although I believe with the above changes it could do better I have used it with the stock bag and very little even light dust makes it that far. It is very good at seperating even very fine dust from the air before it ever makes it to the bag. I am very very happy with it but the clear view or DC's that are more like it would do an even better job. Even with that it is an issue of really good and perfect. I really wonder if DC's like the clear view even need a bag. just blow the air back into your shop after it passes through the cyclone.

about the only thing about the P.S.I. Cyclone that cannot be fixed with enough work is the short tube length. and the impellor size with enough creative thinking you could probably add the inch or so of length to the tube but I have not found it really necessary.

P.S. I am able to get away with the smaller impeller by not having any run of duct work longer than 20' this is very important. if you need longer distances than that this system will not be powerful enough for you. The Oneida is just about your only other acceptable choice but it the king of kings in dust collection.


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## Padre (May 18, 2010)

8" trunks?  I have the Clearview LH1800 and the 6" trunks I put in move more air than I care to calculate.  Just yesterday it sucked the rag (1/2 of a t shirt) I was using to apply polish to my pen right out of my hand and into the ductwork.  I'm still looking for it.:redface:


jskeen said:


> A LOT!  But not quite that much.........You better plan on running at least 6 inch feeders and 8 inch trunks if possible, you really want to keep that crap out of your lungs.  There are specified engineering formula's for how much air you need to keep fine dust out of a given area, and how big a feeder you need to get that much air at a given pressure.  I'll see if I can find a calculator for it.


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## Texatdurango (May 18, 2010)

Padre said:


> Wow. I have the Clearview and I am surprised they are going out of business. I guess the economy has done another great (small) company in. That's sad, I love my cyclone and it runs great.


 
From talking to owner, Ed Morgano, the other day, I don't think it's so much the economy as it is a man wanting to enjoy his retirement time doing other things than WORK.  I gathered that he never invisioned the success of his little business as he started out by just making a system for his son then himself and it sorta snowballed into a business from there.

Looks like for around $260K some enterprising individual could pick up the reins and carry on with the business though.  The IAP seems to be full of young go-getters out for their first million making pens, perhaps one of them will look into it.


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## Padre (May 18, 2010)

Upper SC, hmmmm, a very nice place to live.  But not for me! :biggrin:  I hope someone does pick it up, they make a quality product.


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## Texatdurango (May 18, 2010)

Daniel said:


> George, Since you already know enough to have made the decision for the clearview. then I assume you are looking for dust collection and not just a great price. I also assume there is a lot more to effective dust collection than just someone saying there stuff sucks lol.
> ...........


 
Daniel, Thanks for the insight and taking the time to jot your thoughts down.

I looked at the Tempest "S" for $1,125 but to be honest, didn't spend a lot of time on their site since I just came from the Oneida site where the free 13" x 39" HEPA filter upgrade ($290 value) was fresh on my mind AND I thought of the shipping.  I have a feeling their "Custom Shipping" is gonna be a doozie, probably motor freight, else why not just say what it is upfront!

If Oneida can ship thier system UPS for $134 than why can't PSI be upfront and declare their shipping rates.  

Before making a final decision, I'll probably revisit PSI's sight again but once I have a "front runner" it's harder for me to change my mind. :biggrin:


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## PenMan1 (May 18, 2010)

I'm really sorry to hear that Ed is giving up the business. I know his son stayed very busy with another CNC business and then little clearvue "hobby" business really boomed. They sure made a great product!


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## Texatdurango (May 18, 2010)

Wow, I just got off the phone with a fellow at PSI, he doesn't mince words and has little good to say about the competition! 

He did give me some things to think about though and I found that their shipping was $165 so within $30 of Oneida.

Looks like the filter media is a big topic of debate and the HEPA filters aren't all what they are advertised to be.

Great........ now more decisions to make! :biggrin:


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## rherrell (May 19, 2010)

Texatdurango said:


> Wow, I just got off the phone with a fellow at PSI, he doesn't mince words and has little good to say about the competition!
> 
> That right there would put PSI at the BOTTOM of the list........FOR ME.:wink:


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## Texatdurango (May 19, 2010)

rherrell said:


> Texatdurango said:
> 
> 
> > Wow, I just got off the phone with a fellow at PSI, he doesn't mince words and has little good to say about the competition!
> ...


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## lorbay (May 19, 2010)

Texatdurango said:


> rherrell said:
> 
> 
> > True, I'd rather talk to someone about THEIR product rather than hear them bash the competition but in all fairness, the saleslady at Oneida isn't bashful about sharing her thoughts about PSI either and how the pleats in their filters are space too far apart, etc. Everyone has the best system and uses the best equipment!
> ...


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## Scott T Smith (May 20, 2010)

Hi George.

I have several different dust collection systems in my shop.  For the sake of this discussion, I'll talk about two of them.  

Starting at the smallest, I use Festool sanders and dust collection equipment, and this system is by far the most effective at controlling dust, and in particular fines.  I typically don't wear a respirator or dust mask when I'm using the Festools, because it is not needed.  For just about all other activities in the shop, I wear the mask.

My intermediate system is an Oneida 3hp Super Dust Gorilla.  Without question it is a well engineered, well built system, and Oneida's pre and post sale support is outstanding.  It is also nice to be able to buy a US Manufactured system (with just about 100% US Mfg components).

The Oneida replaced a 2 hp Grizzly setup; there is no comparison between the two.  The Grizzly was a good starter system; the Oneida is a more refined and better crafted system.

I have seen some great home-built systems, especially using pre-separators, etc. too.

If you want the very best dust collection system for sanding, go with the Festool setup.  You will not regret it.  For your larger equipment, I can attest that the Oneida does a great job.


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## Texatdurango (May 20, 2010)

lorbay said:


> Texatdurango said:
> 
> 
> > Have a look at this one George.
> ...


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## Texatdurango (May 20, 2010)

Scott T Smith said:


> .... The Oneida replaced a 2 hp Grizzly setup; there is no comparison between the two. The Grizzly was a good starter system; the Oneida is a more refined and better crafted system.............


 
Scott, I'm glad you posted since you might be able to give me a good comparison since you replaced a Grizzly unit with the Oneida, which is basically what I too am doing.  My new shop will be larger so the sound might not be as loud but I am still concerned since like others I have a stereo set up in my shop and love to listen to music NOT a vacume system.

I have a Grizzly system similar to this one...http://grizzly.com/products/1-1-2-HP-Dust-Collector-with-New-Impeller/G1028Z2

This thing is loud and if I were to do it over again, I would put it in another room or at least insulate around it.

Sound wise, how does the Oneida compare to the Grizzly?

As far as the sanding, I have seen the Festool line and while they are nice, I think they are too pricy ESPECIALLY since I have been adding to my collection of tools over the past 30 years and already have all the sanders I need....... Wow...... did I actually say I had all the tools I need!  Glad my wife doesn't read the forum else she would clip this post out and print it on my shop walls every few feet as a reminder! :biggrin:


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