# A couple of questions concerning Buys



## Monty (Mar 22, 2015)

I have received a few PMs from a couple of people asking what liability a person running a GB would have should a package get lost in the mail and the recipient had opted not to purchase insurance. It was suggested that if payment was through PP and the package was shipped not using PP, that PP could refund the money from account of the person running the GB, but if it was shipped using PP and the  address was confirmed in PP, that PP would support the sender. 

  I have also received several PMs concerning requiring the use Friends & Family so one will not have to pay a PP fee for GBs. One member has researched this and was informed by PP that for our purpose, this would be a correct usage of F&F. The only drawback I see to this is that the mailing address of the recipient is not automatically sent to the GB leader. Would you like to see F&F be added as a requirement for payment for Group Buys?

  Please post any comments you may have on these items.


----------



## Dan Masshardt (Mar 22, 2015)

The offer for insurance is always presented.  If a package is lost, the liability is not on the gb coordinator.  

If the coordinator would scam or something, that would be another issue.  

The other major aspect of regular PayPal is that it offers buyer protection.  Friends and family does not to my knowledge. 

As a buyer, I prefer to not pay the PayPal fee.   If I was the coordinator, the label thing is easier with the addresses in...

I believe that it should be up to whoever coordinates which PayPal options(s) they want to use.  I also think that although I'd use the friends option given the choice, buyers should prob be able to choose to have protection if they like.


----------



## ed4copies (Mar 22, 2015)

A more interesting question, Monty.

If you are ordering from another country and the order gets lost---who is "out".

I know for a fact that the Chinese sources will tell you they are 
Velly solly, but the order is paid for in advance and you are SOL.

Are all participants in these group buys prepared to lose their money, in the event the shipment is lost?


----------



## The Penguin (Mar 22, 2015)

My opinions...

*A GB coordinator should always offer insurance. *If a GB participant does not receive a package shipped by USPS - their maximum recovery is the $50 auto insurance that USPS includes with a flat rate shipment (if shipped using FRB).

*If a GB participant declines/refuses insurance *and then tries to file a paypal claim against the GB coordinator to get his money back - that is a dick move and that participant should be banned from ALL future group purchases - and possibly removed from IAP. Something like that is simply uncalled for and goes against the spirit of IAP.


on F&F transfers - I agree that for what we do, it really qualifies for F&F - though a regular transfer does give the GB participants an extra level of "comfort" (that they'll get their stuff, and that Paypal won't lock down their accounts). It is tremendously convenient to pay for shipping labels within paypal. That convenience is lost with the F&F feature. 3-4% (or so) can add up to quite a bit.


in 2013 I coordinated easily $20,000 in group buys and had zero issues with packages disappearing or with standard or F&F transfers. Let's hope it stays that way.


----------



## eajacobson (Mar 23, 2015)

Insurance - it should be offered (and even encouraged), but not required. Everyone should be knowledgeable enough to decide the level of risk they want to assume.

PayPal - I'm not sure that F & F does not supply the address, nor does the Goods & Service supply it - it seems to be more how the individual sending the money has their account set up. I had fee bearing payments without addresses and (I think) F & F with addresses in the February CSUSA GB.

Also on PayPal, I think if we offer a choice, it might lead to issues of people choosing the Goods & Services route, but not include the estimated fee in their payment and vice versa. Again, from February, I had notes in the guidelines and in the spreadsheet to pick the shipping option they wanted and to confirm the insurance inclusion and amount. That was often just left at the default in the spreadsheet. Without an application to do the orders, it might be hard to enforce the choices in the spreadsheet (though I plan to put a few more changes for the next GB I run).

Ed


----------



## SteveG (Mar 23, 2015)

I participate in group buys (as an individual buyer) fairly often, and have used the F & F payment once or twice. There is a obvious savings advantage, but you do have to fund the money transfer from your account (in my case checking account), to avoid paying an additional fee to PayPal. The fee comes in if you fund by means of a credit card. 
The mentioned downside of the coordinator NOT having the shipping addresses automatically provided via Ppal is something of significance, which adds on to all the other tasks associated with running a buy. That could at least be simplified by the 'Buy' procedures, so it does not become a big headache at shipping time. Overall I favor the F & F option, as an option, so that it could be done either way. It would be good to hear from those who have coordinated a buy, since without a willing coordinator, there would be no buy.


----------



## joefyffe (Mar 23, 2015)

I agree with Mr. Penguin :wink: 100%  Insurance is cheap.  The last group buy, I spent upward of $500.  The extra insurance to cover this was 3 or 4 dollars.  I figure a pkg with an insurance stamp on it MAY receive more tender handling!  ???





The Penguin said:


> My opinions...
> 
> *A GB coordinator should always offer insurance. *If a GB participant does not receive a package shipped by USPS - their maximum recovery is the $50 auto insurance that USPS includes with a flat rate shipment (if shipped using FRB).
> 
> ...


----------



## Smitty37 (Mar 23, 2015)

Insurance on Group buy....I don't see how it would be different on group buys than it is for normal purchased.  In most cases the seller will be responsible until the package is delivered.  That is how eBay does it.  Most large shippers do not offer insurance for that reason, insurance is really to protect the sender.  Personally I self insure unless the value is quite high then I buy insurance myself.  

If I were the group buy coordinator I'd *require* insurance.

If the coordinator is sending invoices and getting payments for them don't use F & F because it will break your paper trail.  If you are letting participants know what they owe by some other means and you have some other method of getting their shipping information - use it. But,  I have never seen F & F come through with a shipping address and there is no where to enter one when you bring it up.


----------



## Smitty37 (Mar 23, 2015)

ed4copies said:


> A more interesting question, Monty.
> 
> If you are ordering from another country and the order gets lost---who is "out".
> 
> ...


 Ed, Agreed. I am relatively certain that virtually ALL merchandise purchased out of country is FOB in the country of origin.  A few seem to accept responsibility while the package is still in their country by making FOB the point of embarkation but most is FOB at the loading dock of their factory.


----------



## The Penguin (Mar 23, 2015)

Smitty37 said:


> Insurance on Group buy....I don't see how it would be different on group buys than it is for normal purchased. * In most cases the seller will be responsible until the package is delivered.*  That is how eBay does it.  Most large shippers do not offer insurance for that reason, insurance is really to protect the sender.  Personally I self insure unless the value is quite high then I buy insurance myself.
> 
> If I were the group buy coordinator I'd *require* insurance.
> 
> If the coordinator is sending invoices and getting payments for them don't use F & F because it will break your paper trail.  If you are letting participants know what they owe by some other means and you have some other method of getting their shipping information - use it. But,  I have never seen F & F come through with a shipping address and there is no where to enter one when you bring it up.


 
big difference between a retailor/customer sale and a group buy.

the group buy coordinator is not profiting from the sale and is only passing through costs to the participants.


----------



## PR_Princess (Mar 23, 2015)

The Penguin said:


> big difference between a retailor/customer sale and a group buy.
> 
> *the group buy coordinator is not profiting from the sale and is only passing through costs to the participants.*



In large part this is still true - but it is no longer an absolute.

http://www.penturners.org/forum/f21/changes-affecting-csusa-group-buy-guidelines-119215/

That said, I believe that requiring insurance as part of the conditions of the buy (or a hold harmless waiver for the co-ordinator) is a good idea. 

And *IF* paypal's rules allow F&F, I think that the coordinator might want to consider the number of participants he is having in the buy. If the number is small (10?), the extra work of hand typing out labels (F&F) might not be an issue. But if the number is larger, it can really be a bit of a job. In that case paypal's auto label feature might really nice to employ....Especially after spending a ton of hours un-boxing, sorting, and re packaging of hundreds or thousands of items.

FWIW


----------



## Smitty37 (Mar 23, 2015)

The question is not one of profit or profit motive.  Or whether or not it is a business or individual doing the shipping.  It's simply who is going to lose if the item paid for by PayPal or Credit Card does not get delivered.


----------



## The Penguin (Mar 23, 2015)

Smitty37 said:


> The question is not one of profit or profit motive.  Or whether or not it is a business or individual doing the shipping.  It's simply who is going to lose if the item paid for by PayPal or Credit Card does not get delivered.


 
and the group buy coordinator should not be the one that loses if the package is lost AND the recipient refused the insurance.


----------



## Smitty37 (Mar 23, 2015)

The Penguin said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > The question is not one of profit or profit motive.  Or whether or not it is a business or individual doing the shipping.  It's simply who is going to lose if the item paid for by PayPal or Credit Card does not get delivered.
> ...


We don't disagree on that point.  The operative question is whether or not the coordinator WILL lose.  While I self insure in my business because it is obviously more profitable for me to do that I wouldn't recommend that for a coordinator.  That is why I would make the insurance a part of the shipping cost - no option.


----------



## Timbo (Mar 23, 2015)

Monty said:


> I have received a few PMs from a couple of people asking what liability a person running a GB would have should a package get lost in the mail and the recipient had opted not to purchase insurance. It was suggested that if payment was through PP and the package was shipped not using PP, that PP could refund the money from account of the person running the GB, but if it was shipped using PP and the  address was confirmed in PP, that PP would support the sender.
> 
> I have also received several PMs concerning requiring the use Friends & Family so one will not have to pay a PP fee for GBs. One member has researched this and was informed by PP that for our purpose, this would be a correct usage of F&F. The only drawback I see to this is that the mailing address of the recipient is not automatically sent to the GB leader. Would you like to see F&F be added as a requirement for payment for Group Buys?
> 
> Please post any comments you may have on these items.



I'm the member that originally researched the F&F payment option with Paypal.  The website description, and my phone conversation with their customer support person confirmed that what we're doing with the group buys qualifies for the use of that option.

I think the person running the GB should decide if F&F or the regular option is to be used for the buy.  It should be one the other, not both within the same buy as that would introduce too much chance of mistakes and confusion.  I've run several buys and have not used the Paypal address label feature so that wont be an issue for me if its not available with F&F option.  That said, I haven't run a buy with 50 folks either, I might wish I had use of the Paypal address label feature if I did.

The person running the buy should NOT be responsible for lost/damaged  packages or shipments as long as he/she can confirm that the package was shipped via a tracking#.  The insurance option should always be offered, if someone chooses not to take it that's on them.


----------



## zig613 (Mar 23, 2015)

Something to consider... I believe if you pay as a "Family or Friend" the person participating in the group buy is not covered by PayPal's "Purchase Protection".  I don't mind paying the PayPal fees to the organizer of the group buy to ensure I have coverage... just like buying insurance on package deliveries. 

Wade


----------



## Monty (Mar 23, 2015)

Great discussion. That's what I'm after.


----------



## Quality Pen (Mar 24, 2015)

I asked Paypal over the phone as well about the payment option of friends and family. They said it was OK and not circumventing fees.

Of course, this was just a person on the phone and not necessarily a manager or perhaps an expert on the matter. 

I explained in no uncertain terms what I was doing and they said friends and family is fine.

For what it's worth, I would not be opposed to requiring insurance. The way I see it, if you spend 300 dollars then you're going to be saving quite a bit of money, so "throwing away" some money on insurance doesn't come close to eating your savings.


----------



## Timbo (Mar 24, 2015)

At least two of us have talked to Paypal customer service directly and got the same answer.  At this point there does not seem to be any question that we would NOT be breaking any Paypal rules if we use the Friends & Family option for our group buy purchases.  I think we can put that one to bed. 

However, there still seems to be some questions about using the shipping label feature, as well as buyer/seller protections....maybe others.  Maybe Mannie could compile a list of those questions, then we execute a plan to get the answers.  I can't imagine that there would be more than five questions that really need answers.  My thoughts would be first, to have someone address the specific questions we have with PayPal.  Then, verify what we can by executing a transaction using the F&F option, and having the buyer and seller report their findings.  Might seem like overkill but that would end the uncertainty.  I'm willing to be the test buyer (money sender), someone familiar with using the Paypal labeling should be the seller.  Obviously, I would expect the transaction to be reversed after the test.

Mannie should be the one to have final say if this is worthwhile, and to drive it if so.


----------



## The Penguin (Mar 24, 2015)

why pick that scab with Paypal?

they may decide to get rid of that option all together.


----------



## Timbo (Mar 24, 2015)

The Penguin said:


> why pick that scab with Paypal?
> 
> they may decide to get rid of that option all together.



There's no scabs to be picked as far as I can see.  Legally using the F&F option is no longer a question.  There's no need to research that any longer.  It would be nice to confirmed with certainty what other options/feature we might lose if we use F&F vs. the other option that requires a fee.

Edit:  Paypal's net revenue in 2014 was 1.95 billion U.S. dollars.  I really don't think what we do will have any real impact on their business decisions.


----------



## zig613 (Mar 24, 2015)

On their website PayPal is clear what is covered under their "Buyer Protection" and "Family and Friend" transactions are not covered.

The following was extracted from the PayPal (Canada) website...

*Protected Purchases*

Eligible items must be tangible goods.  You must pay for it using your PayPal account, and your account must be in good standing. You must also pay for the item with one payment.

*Items Not Covered*


The following items are not covered:

Intangible items like digital goods or services
Real estate
Motorized vehicles (of any kind)
Custom-made items
Travel tickets
Industrial machinery (for manufacturing)
Cash, gift cards, or Prepaid cards
Items that violate our policies or eBay's policies
Items bought in person,
Money transfers to friends or family
Wade


----------



## duncsuss (Mar 24, 2015)

zig613 said:


> On their website PayPal is clear what is covered under their "Buyer Protection" and "Family and Friend" transactions are not covered.



Wade, the question that I'd like answered definitively is *who pays* when PayPal "Buyer Protection" returns funds to the purchaser?

If it's the Group Buy organizer, and not PayPal's insurance company, don't expect a stampede of folks volunteering to organize them in future.


----------



## The Penguin (Mar 24, 2015)

duncsuss said:


> zig613 said:
> 
> 
> > On their website PayPal is clear what is covered under their "Buyer Protection" and "Family and Friend" transactions are not covered.
> ...


 
bingo.


----------



## zig613 (Mar 24, 2015)

duncsuss said:


> zig613 said:
> 
> 
> > On their website PayPal is clear what is covered under their "Buyer Protection" and "Family and Friend" transactions are not covered.
> ...


 
Duncan,

The IAP world to date has been pretty safe.  As far as I know no one has been burned by a group buy.  The "Buyer Protection" provides a level of comfort (IMHO) that my funds transferred to someone for a particular purchase will follow through with the transaction. 

This isn't meant to be a slight to the organizers of a group buy.  They do a great job and they should be commended for their work.  I have participated in a couple myself.  However, like any other Internet purchase I make I feel much more comfortable knowing that I have the "Buyer Protection" in place.  The same rationale could be made to those organizing the group buy requesting insurance on the shippment.

Wade


----------



## KenV (Mar 24, 2015)

Have had a couple of bad transactions over the years and used what is now the Buyer Protection Plan.   

The transaction was reversed and the "seller" was debited the amount.   


Pay Pal runs/facilitates the process -- and is Judge, Jury, and handler of the funds.


----------



## Smitty37 (Mar 24, 2015)

If you pay for merchandise you have to either enter a shipping address or specifically say you don't want one.  That feature is not available in family and friends.  Without that It is highly unlikely that the coordinator will be able to use the automatic label feature and will likely have to enter the shipping address to print the label.  One thing that might be possible, I've never looked - you might be able to use third party shipping insurance which is uaually a fair amount cheaper than postal insurance.


----------



## Smitty37 (Mar 24, 2015)

duncsuss said:


> zig613 said:
> 
> 
> > On their website PayPal is clear what is covered under their "Buyer Protection" and "Family and Friend" transactions are not covered.
> ...


It is the person who received the money who is ultimately responsible.  Only if that person can't be charged back to does PayPal "eat" the cost.  Which in my opinion is why insurance should be required on all purchases over $50.00 (or $100 if UPS is used.) when USPS is the carrier.


----------



## duncsuss (Mar 24, 2015)

zig613 said:


> ... I feel much more comfortable knowing that I have the "Buyer Protection" in place.


IMO what you're saying is that you don't trust the person who has volunteered to organize the group buy.


----------



## Dan Masshardt (Mar 24, 2015)

I like to save money and roll the dice baby.  No paypal protection no extra insurance.


----------



## magier412 (Mar 24, 2015)

I think that it's fairly clear that any "buyer protection" would be debited to the group buy coordinator's account - not to PayPal (because, hello...why would they take a loss?  they are just functioning as the merchant charge back in lieu of an actual cc company).  This would work similarly if you'd deny a charge made to PayPal itself with your VISA card, for example, although I suspect that you'd have all sorts of problems with PayPal after something like that, LOL.

I agree with Duncan, frankly.  Part of what we are doing here in this community is trying to help one another in our crazy obsession with turning - uhm - I mean quite respectable hobby.

Although this is a virtual meeting space, there are friendships formed (some IRL) and there is a certain amount of respect and trust that goes along with that.  If you don't trust those folks that you are going into business with, then don't do business.  Simple enough.

It'd be a shame to make this nice activity go away due to the oppressive feeling of people worrying about things that haven't ever happened here to begin with.  If it did happen, I'm sure that there would be significant repercussions to that individual, but honestly, I wouldn't think that any of the folks here are that dishonest.   They wouldn't be here, and they wouldn't still be part of this community.

Besides...we know where you live.  Bwahahahahaha!

And I agree with Penguin that anyone that doesn't take responsibility for their own package (insured or not) and then turns around and tries to make it someone else's fault just probably doesn't belong here and should be sent to the naughty corner and not let out any time soon.

As far as making labels on USPS goes - it's not that hard to cut and paste from email or whatever list/spreadsheet that's been compiled.  It can be a bit more of a pain, but hey...anything is fun if you decide it is...just sayin'

Good days and great days...don't have bad days anymore (and that's by choice 

Let's not cancel the party because we might not like the clown...

Just my two cents.


----------



## Smitty37 (Mar 24, 2015)

magier412 said:


> I think that it's fairly clear that any "buyer protection" would be debited to the group buy coordinator's account - not to PayPal (because, hello...why would they take a loss?  they are just functioning as the merchant charge back in lieu of an actual cc company).  This would work similarly if you'd deny a charge made to PayPal itself with your VISA card, for example, although I suspect that you'd have all sorts of problems with PayPal after something like that, LOL.
> 
> I agree with Duncan, frankly.  Part of what we are doing here in this community is trying to help one another in our crazy obsession with turning - uhm - I mean quite respectable hobby.
> 
> ...


Well the coordinator is entitled to be protected as well as the buyer -- and what others think not-with-standing insurance is to protect the sender against loss. If  a package is lost or damaged the seller (group buy coordinator) is responsible to make it good by replacement or refund.  Period. And, contrary to what some people seem to believe, not everyone participating in a group buy would be willing to eat a $500.00 loss whether they bought insurance or not.   It isn't a matter of trust - losses can occur through no fault of the coordinator.  

Buyer protection is to protect the buyer against loss in the rare case where the seller decides to obscond with the money - that isn't likely to happen, tornadoes, hurricanes, fires, floods, accidents and deaths can and do happen - Buyer protection works in those cases too.  Again it has nothing to do with trust.  And, it is free.

Postage labels -  What good reason is there to ask the group coordinator to do more work than he/she is already undertaking.  If anyone thinks that paying a paypal fee negates their savings, they are free to not join the buy.


----------



## Monty (Mar 24, 2015)

We do know that F&F does not give the senders address for mailing labels in PP.
Now, let me throw this out. If money is sent via F&F, doesn't that imply that the sender is sending money with no expectation of anything in return? If this is the case, than there would be no recourse through PP and PP would have no reason to take money from the recipient. 

Now let me ask this about USPS insurance. What kind of documentation would one have to supply in order to file for loss of the shipment?


----------



## jttheclockman (Mar 24, 2015)

I would like to hear what Jeff has to say in this matter. He did not use Paypal in the Bash celebration. How did he handle the labels and insurance???


----------



## magier412 (Mar 24, 2015)

Smitty37 said:


> Well the coordinator is entitled to be protected as well as the buyer -- and what others think not-with-standing insurance is to protect the sender against loss. If  a package is lost or damaged the seller (group buy coordinator) is responsible to make it good by replacement or refund.  Period. And, contrary to what some people seem to believe, not everyone participating in a group buy would be willing to eat a $500.00 loss whether they bought insurance or not.   It isn't a matter of trust - losses can occur through no fault of the coordinator.
> 
> Buyer protection is to protect the buyer against loss in the rare case where the seller decides to obscond with the money - that isn't likely to happen, tornadoes, hurricanes, fires, floods, accidents and deaths can and do happen - Buyer protection works in those cases too.  Again it has nothing to do with trust.  And, it is free.
> 
> Postage labels -  What good reason is there to ask the group coordinator to do more work than he/she is already undertaking.  If anyone thinks that paying a paypal fee negates their savings, they are free to not join the buy.



The problem that I have with the "Buyer Protection" is that any CLAIM comes directly out of the SELLERS pocket.

It's not insurance at all, it's just a merchant charge back.

And that is what Penguin - and others (me included) - was getting at.  I don't give a rip about a few dollars in USPS insurance, nor a service fee for PayPal, but I DO care about the likelihood that hurricanes, fires, floods and accidents might have one of our members holding the bag for a $500 package(s) that was damaged through no fault of their own.  

If people insist on the use of "Buyer Protection" (note it's not called "Seller Protection"), I suspect it will be the end of group buys.  

And I wouldn't blame the coordinators/sellers one damn bit.

Just sayin'


----------



## Smitty37 (Mar 24, 2015)

Monty said:


> We do know that F&F does not give the senders address for mailing labels in PP.
> Now, let me throw this out. If money is sent via F&F, doesn't that imply that the sender is sending money with no expectation of anything in return? If this is the case, than there would be no recourse through PP and PP would have no reason to take money from the recipient.
> 
> Now let me ask this about USPS insurance. What kind of documentation would one have to supply in order to file for loss of the shipment?


Generally speaking an invoice is going to be required. The post office will already have the declared value and the information that it wasn't delivered in their system.


----------



## Smitty37 (Mar 24, 2015)

magier412 said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > Well the coordinator is entitled to be protected as well as the buyer -- and what others think not-with-standing insurance is to protect the sender against loss. If  a package is lost or damaged the seller (group buy coordinator) is responsible to make it good by replacement or refund.  Period. And, contrary to what some people seem to believe, not everyone participating in a group buy would be willing to eat a $500.00 loss whether they bought insurance or not.   It isn't a matter of trust - losses can occur through no fault of the coordinator.
> ...


 Truth is PayPal does have something called Seller Protection.   That's beside the point.  Buyer protection simply gives the buyer the same protection they would have if they bought with a credit card. It is not an option, if you pay for goods and services (with exceptions) you have it.  If you pay with friends and family you don't have it.


----------



## Smitty37 (Mar 25, 2015)

*Buyer Protection at PayPal*

I think there is some misunderstanding about this feature.  It is nothing strange.

There are two ways to pay using PayPal. Merchandise payment and F & F, both of them offer the same options for the source of funds to make the payment with.  A Payer can have one or more credit cards set up.  They can have PayPal access their bank account and they can use their PayPal balance. 

Buyer Protection applies only if the payer uses their PayPal balance as the source of funds and only if used in payment for merchandise.  It gives the payer only the same recourse using their PayPal Balance that they have if they use a credit card as the source of funds.  Nothing more. 

If the payer uses a credit card their recourse is via the credit card bank rather than PayPal but they do have it. 

The charge back always goes first to the Payees funds but in some cases if the payees funds don't cover an allowed charge back the credit card bank must bear the loss.  PayPal buyer protection seems to work the same way.  If they can they will charge back to the Payee, if for some reason they can't do that they will still make good the charge back.  

Whether or not the Payer initiates a dispute is entirely up to them, because they can doesn't mean they have to.  I've had a couple started against me because of slow delivery to Canada then dropped when the package arrived - they were initiated only to protect the buyer in case of loss in the mail.

You can't dispute a F & F transfer from PayPal under normal circumstances because you are saying you're not paying for anything.  

The reason I would not use F & F for Group Buys is because it does not connect to the mailing label if the coordinator is going to use USPS and I'm not sure maybe FedEx or UPS as well.  If you have 50 participants this can mean a ton of extra work for the coordinator.


----------



## eajacobson (Mar 25, 2015)

Regarding the address printing option in PP - for USPS shipping, it only works for flat rate or priority options. Regional A boxes are a great option for size vs cost, but only if you get the postage through USPS - it isn't a PP option. Maybe you can print a pure label from PP, but you'll still have to enter the data in USPS to get the postage covered.

Ed


----------



## eajacobson (Mar 25, 2015)

Regarding "buyer protection" and shipping insurance - from a coordinators perspective, if someone insists on buyer protection, I'd want to insist on shipping insurance. The buyers have to trust the coordinators, otherwise the coordinators aren't going to be there. The same is true that the coordinators have to trust the buyers. Now that we know that F&F is a legal option in PP, I would tend to encourage it (as it seems most buyers want it). That being said, I would go with what I said above - if F&F is openly available (and encouraged, maybe), and a buyer insists they want to use G&S in PP (for the buyer protection), I would insist that they opt for insurance (and possibly for the non-discounted goods price, if I'll be expected to provide the goods again).

Let's just trust that we (both buyers and coordinators) are there to try our best to help out each other.

Ed


----------



## The Penguin (Mar 25, 2015)

Smitty37 said:


> magier412 said:
> 
> 
> > I think that it's fairly clear that any "buyer protection" would be debited to the group buy coordinator's account - not to PayPal (because, hello...why would they take a loss?  they are just functioning as the merchant charge back in lieu of an actual cc company).  This would work similarly if you'd deny a charge made to PayPal itself with your VISA card, for example, although I suspect that you'd have all sorts of problems with PayPal after something like that, LOL.
> ...


yes, losses can occur through no fault of the coordinator.

if the end buyer (participant) - refused to to purchase shipping insurance (because he's a cheapass and likes to gamble?) and then God forbid - the package is lost in shipment - you still think the coordinator should be liable for the package & contents?

unbelievable.


----------



## magier412 (Mar 25, 2015)

Smitty37 said:


> I think there is some misunderstanding about this feature.  It is nothing strange.
> 
> There are two ways to pay using PayPal. Merchandise payment and F & F, both of them offer the same options for the source of funds to make the payment with.  A Payer can have one or more credit cards set up.  They can have PayPal access their bank account and they can use their PayPal balance.
> 
> ...



No, I totally understand.  I do.  :dog:

My point is that using this option, while it does protect the buyer (fair enough) it also puts the coordinator/seller in a huge position of liability.

I'm not saying that it's not up to the individual to decide to file a claim if they don't receive their uninsured package that was lost/damaged after mailing - I personally would find this to be bad form and a risk that I wouldn't take on as a coordinator/seller.

I also think that should some unsavory person decide to abscond with funds sent in good faith - then the proper recourse would of course be to file a claim.

I guess that what I am saying is - if people want to be in the best position possible, then they should pay for Goods and Services (paying the appropriate fees thereof and thereby receiving the benefit of PayPal Buyers Protection) AND they should also pay a MANDATORY insurance fee for actual replacement value of their shipped goods in case of loss or damage (to protect the seller in case of a claim, or the buyer that doesn't want to file a claim with PayPal, but does want to file a claim with the shipper).

This isn't what has necessarily been done in the past (although some have), but if everyone wants to protect themselves and those that put themselves at risk by taking on the task of coordinating these group buys, then this is likely the most transparent and risk-less way to do it (not risk free, but less risky) as far as PayPal goes. 

It adds to the cost and may be somewhat more cumbersome, and that may make it less attractive to some.  Or not.  :banana:

Phew...That's about as clearly as I can say it at this time of night with a tired and somewhat angry brain...  LOL.  :laugh:


----------



## Quality Pen (Mar 25, 2015)

Well, I'm just thinking about something but...

If you paid via PayPal with F&F and used your Visa/Amex/Discover/etc and got scammed, would you be able to dispute this with your credit card company?

If you could, then perhaps that avoids the ill-intentioned-organizer threat.

(However, the lost package threat+no insurance may be still exist.)

From a buyer's perspective, it's far better to pay for isurance than PP fees. And, (although sometimes I am slower than I like!) I refund money when people send F&F, and sometimes this can be a meaningful 10 bucks.


----------



## jyreene (Mar 25, 2015)

Smitty37 said:


> I think there is some misunderstanding about this feature.  It is nothing strange.
> 
> There are two ways to pay using PayPal. Merchandise payment and F & F, both of them offer the same options for the source of funds to make the payment with.  A Payer can have one or more credit cards set up.  They can have PayPal access their bank account and they can use their PayPal balance.
> 
> ...



I'll wade into this because I've done a group buy and because this is getting ridiculous.

I have done a group buy and used both F & F and merchant service because some of the buyers were unable to get F & F to work. I hand typed all the labels for it. The difference between typing them in and using the print label from PayPal was maybe all of a few minutes total. I had already volunteered my time to run the buy so I was willing to use that time. 

You seem to be A) thinking that the buyers shouldn't have the option to get insurance because they don't truly understand what they would be losing B) thinking that the group buy coordinator should be treated as a vendor no matter what C) thinking that the difference between typing a label in USPS, going the the brick and mortar, or using PayPal's shipping print capability is your decision to make. If the group buy coordinator and Monty are all good with the options decided then it's up to them.

On my group buy I asked if anyone wanted insurance. No one did. They all got the insurance that comes with the shipping. $50 for domestic and $25 for international. Let's say someone didn't get their package. What's the recourse? I have to pay them back? I have to get them another set? Let's say I have to get them another set. That would mean buy one offs of something in many cases (except the CSUSA buys) and would not just be out a little but a lot. 

PayPal F & F did not let me print shipping labels. The only time I got addresses with that function was if they put it in the notes. PayPal assumes you have the addresses of your friends and family. So that answers that question. The only way to print a label from PayPal is using the merchant option and only if you have it set up that way and the buyer has their address set up.


----------



## jyreene (Mar 25, 2015)

Let me add that if I were, by the group buy rules, held responsible for items lost or damaged during shipping I would not have run the group buy. I'm not a vendor and should not be treated as such. No group buy coordinator should.


----------



## KenV (Mar 25, 2015)

This is a "policy development" discussion.   IAP is running more group buys and doing it on a regular basis.   While the purpose is to save some money on the part of the group, the IAP interest is to keep peace and harmony and generate good feelings on the part of the participants.  

So the outcome policies that the IAP Management team put into place will be the rules that govern.   You participate in a group buy through IAP - you accept and follow the rules.   The policies should provide clarity about roles, responsibility, and risks.

For example -- a policy about insurance for shipments from the Coordinator.

Participants in Group Buys will have the opportunity to add payment for insurance on the package(s) from the Coordinator to the Participant.   Should the Participant decline to pay for insurance, the Participant accepts the risks of loss of the parcel in shipment and has no recourse except for the insurance generally offered with the shipment ($50 domestic shippment with USPS for example).   The Coordinator agrees to file claims for lost packages to the extent of insurance coverage and value of the contents should loss occur.


This gets sticky only when there is loss of a package off the doorstep or delivery of packages to the wrong address (been there recently with a USPS package - but the party it was delivered to sent it back and I got it on the bounce).


----------



## jyreene (Mar 25, 2015)

Ken, that I would be completely reasonable.


----------



## Smitty37 (Mar 25, 2015)

eajacobson said:


> Regarding "buyer protection" and shipping insurance - from a coordinators perspective, if someone insists on buyer protection, I'd want to insist on shipping insurance. The buyers have to trust the coordinators, otherwise the coordinators aren't going to be there. The same is true that the coordinators have to trust the buyers. Now that we know that F&F is a legal option in PP, I would tend to encourage it (as it seems most buyers want it). That being said, I would go with what I said above - if F&F is openly available (and encouraged, maybe), and a buyer insists they want to use G&S in PP (for the buyer protection), I would insist that they opt for insurance (and possibly for the non-discounted goods price, if I'll be expected to provide the goods again).
> 
> Let's just trust that we (both buyers and coordinators) are there to try our best to help out each other.
> 
> Ed


Why?  If they are keeping track of expenses using the G & S payment gives them a better paper trail for their taxes than F & F in case of Audit.  In either case insurance should be required - not an option.  Insurance is the only way to protect both the buyer and seller.  

As I said earlier, if the buyer protection is nothing special - 75 % of my customers pay with a credit card they have "buyer protection" via their credit card company - PayPal buyer protection does not apply to those customers, only to customers who use their paypal balance as their source of funds.  

Why would you ever want to deny them the same protections that those using credit cards have?


----------



## The Penguin (Mar 25, 2015)

Smitty37 said:


> eajacobson said:
> 
> 
> > Regarding "buyer protection" and shipping insurance - from a coordinators perspective, if someone insists on buyer protection, I'd want to insist on shipping insurance. The buyers have to trust the coordinators, otherwise the coordinators aren't going to be there. The same is true that the coordinators have to trust the buyers. Now that we know that F&F is a legal option in PP, I would tend to encourage it (as it seems most buyers want it). That being said, I would go with what I said above - if F&F is openly available (and encouraged, maybe), and a buyer insists they want to use G&S in PP (for the buyer protection), I would insist that they opt for insurance (and possibly for the non-discounted goods price, if I'll be expected to provide the goods again).
> ...


 
stop looking at group buys and the group buy coordinator as a "business" - because we are not.

as a group buy coordinator - I am not profiting off of the "sale" of any merchandise to the end user - in fact we volunteer our time to conduct the buy. So you could say we are "losing" money by spending our time to coordinate.


----------



## magier412 (Mar 25, 2015)

Smitty....I think that the huge difference here is as Penguin says...you seem to be looking at this from the perspective of a vendor, when this really isn't anything like that at all.  It's totally volunteer project, done for the good of the community - and to be fair, they also benefit from the effort of the discount, but that's about it.  I don't think that we can think of this as anything close to a vendor/buyer relationship.  It truly is a group of friends pooling their resources to get a better deal on a purchase by volume.


----------



## GDGeorge (Mar 25, 2015)

Hi folks,

I'll chime in here as I've coordinated one of these and am putting together another. I guess that I'm fine with the system the way it is.  Having said that, it seems to me that there are very few actual protections for either side should a package fail to arrive and that the insurance is probably the best of those.  

Other semi-random thoughts:

Hold harmless agreements, Individual Buy policies, and IAP rules may or may not have any legal standing depending upon where the buyer and coordinator is located but let's remember that legal recourse against a coordinator would be expensive and probably not worth it for a participant.  

The buyer has the opportunity to purchase insurance over and above that provided but currently has the option of rolling dice that are, frankly, loaded in his or her favor, assuming that everyone has good-intentions.  The Coordinator provides proof of shipping receives proof of delivery and thus both sides are covered.  Again, assuming everyone is reasonable.  

I won't speak for everyone, but in my case, I want to give back to the community and this is a good way to do it. This forum is a great resource and is one of two forums that I hang out on. Yes, there is recompense in the form of the discount and the Frequent Buyer points, but I'll be honest they don't even begin to cover my time.  FYI, I just checked and I received $90 in "instant cash" on the last one.  My actual costs over and above my time included supplies such as tape, labels, toner, and fuel. My time was probably about four to six hours, maybe a bit more. The majority of it was sorting orders and modifying the spreadsheet to make settlement sheets. I'll actually keep track this time but I'm guessing it will be on the order of 5 hours total.  

I'm not too worried about an ill-intentioned buyer as I "knew" most of the buyer from my last one.  I also could have not permitted someones' participation had I not been comfortable with them. 

Likewise, I didn't twist any arms to get perticipants.  People who weren't comfortable with the risks could choose not to participate.

Even assuming that someone got that far in assembling a buy, I can't imagine that it would be worth it for a coordinator to take the money and run. It's just not that much money for the risk.


----------



## The Penguin (Mar 25, 2015)

one group buy I did in 2013 was just shy of $10K

so - they can get up to significant amounts of money.


----------



## Smitty37 (Mar 25, 2015)

The Penguin said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > eajacobson said:
> ...


It has nothing to do with whether it is a "business" or not.  If you don't like buyer and seller call it payer and payee.

What we are talking about with PayPal is whether or not there is more or less risk of loss using F & F or G & S for payment.    That is why we also talked about shipping insurance, which also concerns risk of loss.  

A payer using a credit card as the source of funds has a recourse available by using charge back.  That is there whether the payer chooses  F & F or G & S. 

A payer using their PayPal balance as a source of funds has no recourse if they use F & F, but they do have the same recourse using G & S they'd have if they used their credit card. 

All of that has nothing to do with trust, profit motive or anything else.  It has only to do with risk of loss and who is assuming the risk of loss.

The PayPal mailing label issue is not related to business either, it is related to the amount of work the coordinator needs to do to accomplish their task...which we all know is volunteer work.


----------



## Smitty37 (Mar 25, 2015)

The Penguin said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > eajacobson said:
> ...


It has nothing to do with whether it is a "business" or not.  If you don't like buyer and seller call it payer and payee.

What we are talking about with PayPal is whether or not there is more or less risk of loss using F & F or G & S for payment.    That is why we also talked about shipping insurance, which also concerns risk of loss.  

A payer using a credit card as the source of funds has a recourse available by using charge back.  That is there whether the payer chooses  F & F or G & S. 

A payer using their PayPal balance as a source of funds has no recourse if they use F & F, but they do have the same recourse using G & S they'd have if they used their credit card. 

All of that has nothing to do with trust, profit motive or anything else.  It has only to do with risk of loss and who is assuming the risk of loss.

The PayPal mailing label issue is not related to business either, it is related to the amount of work the coordinator needs to do to accomplish their task...which we all know is volunteer work.

While the group buy coordinator is not a business, I suspect that a lot of participants are.  They are buying kits to turn into pens that they will sell.  Hence, you have purchases that are either non-business related or business related.  A business person can't claim something is not business related simply because they buy it from a private individual rather than another business.


----------



## The Penguin (Mar 25, 2015)

why should a participant need to have any "recourse" against a group buy coordinator?

if it's straight up malfeasance and the coordinator steals the money - then sure - but it would likely not be just one participant, but several. Perhaps the "vetting" process here at IAP should be stiffened. But then, people change, and someone previously vetted could fall on hard times and take advantage.

if the coordinator gets the order wrong - he should man up and fix it with the participant - again, no "recourse" should be required.


----------



## Monty (Mar 25, 2015)

The Penguin said:


> ...if it's straight up malfeasance and the coordinator steals the money - then sure - but it would likely not be just one participant, but several....


Something similar to this happened over 5 years ago. Not a GB, but the person collected money in advance and then abruptly vanished. It was said he had fallen on hard times and lost everything.



Smitty37 said:


> A payer using their PayPal balance as a source of funds has no recourse if they use F & F, but they do have the same recourse using G & S they'd have if they used their credit card.


The reason given for wanting to use F&F is to avoid paying the PP fee. If one used their CC or DC in F&F, then they are charged the PP fee, where in G&S the recipient pays the fees and we have been adding in the approximate amount of this fee.


----------



## Smitty37 (Mar 25, 2015)

The Penguin said:


> why should a participant need to have any "recourse" against a group buy coordinator?
> 
> if it's straight up malfeasance and the coordinator steals the money - then sure - but it would likely not be just one participant, but several. Perhaps the "vetting" process here at IAP should be stiffened. But then, people change, and someone previously vetted could fall on hard times and take advantage.
> 
> if the coordinator gets the order wrong - he should man up and fix it with the participant - again, no "recourse" should be required.


Recourse is not against anyone per se.  There are any number of things that can happen where something doesn't get delivered and if it involves enough money the participant is going to want either the goods or his/her money back. 

What if a $500 package is lost?  Assuming neither the coordinator nor the participant are rich enough to absorb the loss...who should get the loss?  

Without insurance one of them is going to eat the loss and quite a few are saying insurance should be optional to save the participant a couple of dollars.  

If the participant paid with buyer protection, or a credit card, you can make book that the coordinator will eat the loss. 

If the participant paid with his paypal balance you can make book that the participant will eat the loss. 

This discussion becomes academic if insurance is required or if priority mail is used and the value is less than $50.00.    

IAP in no longer a small tight knit organization.  It now has almost 20,000 members and will probably reach that milestone in very short order.  So Group buys are going to involve all kinds of people, and expecting everyone to act toward each other like they might have a few years ago is living in a dream world.


----------



## Smitty37 (Mar 25, 2015)

Monty said:


> The Penguin said:
> 
> 
> > ...if it's straight up malfeasance and the coordinator steals the money - then sure - but it would likely not be just one participant, but several....
> ...


Agreed but I believe it is a Pass through fee going to the credit card bank.  In a normal credit card transaction the merchant pays that fee and has it built into their price structure.

*Was it that long ago that the advance payments disappeared.  Time flys when you are getting old.*


----------



## The Penguin (Mar 25, 2015)

Smitty37 said:


> The Penguin said:
> 
> 
> > why should a participant need to have any "recourse" against a group buy coordinator?
> ...


If the buyer (participant) can't afford the loss - he damn well should have bought insurance then right? Why should the coordinator be held responsible for a cheap buyer that doesn't want to buy insurance?


----------



## Monty (Mar 25, 2015)

Smitty37 said:


> ...Agreed but I believe it is a Pass through fee going to the credit card bank.  In a normal credit card transaction the merchant pays that fee and has it built into their price structure.


Same with a GB, however the G&S fee is added to the purchasers bill. If a CC is used in F&F the purchaser would pay the fee upfront and it would not be added to their bill. The only way the purchaser avoids the fee is to pay through F&F with their PP balance or from their bank account and therefore would have no buyer protection.


----------



## ed4copies (Mar 25, 2015)

The Penguin said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > The Penguin said:
> ...



What SHOULD happen has little bearing on the decision a credit card company or PayPal will make.   Also IAP would have no control over the decision made by the credit card or Paypal.

"HE" (the buyer) paid YOU (the coordinator) for goods and services.  HE did not get them, YOU are likely out the money.  Yes, this would not happen on IAP---everybody trusts everybody, usually with good reason.  LET me tell you about a scam pulled on the auctions-----"nice young man" tried to pull a fast one--GREAT work by Jeff and Curtis stymied the plan---he could just as easily have said he did not receive the goods on a group buy---even if they were in his hands----would PayPal support the coordinator???


----------



## Smitty37 (Mar 25, 2015)

The Penguin said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > The Penguin said:
> ...


In the eyes of the Credit Card Bank or PayPal the seller (coordinator) is responsible for the shipment until it is delivered and found to be in perfect condition and complete.  Up until that time the coordinator is responsible in PayPal's eyes whether you think he/she should be or not.  And, they do not care if the payer was offered insurance and was too cheap to pay for it or not.

If you have ever disputed a payment for nondelivery or had one disputed at PayPal (I have had both) you know that already.

You are (in my opinion) making the mistake of thinking that because it is a group buy the buyer will not enter a dispute if the goods are not delivered,  We might agree that in this case the participant should not do so and to this point no one has done so but that in no way guarantees that no one in the future will.


----------



## Smitty37 (Mar 25, 2015)

ed4copies said:


> The Penguin said:
> 
> 
> > Smitty37 said:
> ...


If I'm not mistaken that was just last year or maybe it was 2013 but not long ago.


----------



## KenV (Mar 25, 2015)

The other aspect -- because the activity is done under the umbrella of Penturners.org. LLC; there are some who would see IAP having some responsibility.   Especially as IAP develops guidelines and policies, should those policies not be followed, the probability of responsibility increases.   Policy monitoring and "enforcement" become important for IAP.


----------



## Smitty37 (Mar 25, 2015)

Monty said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > ...Agreed but I believe it is a Pass through fee going to the credit card bank.  In a normal credit card transaction the merchant pays that fee and has it built into their price structure.
> ...


Agreed...but that is my point.  The purchaser who pays with PayPal funds (or bank transfer) is exposed to a risk that a purchaser who uses a credit card in F & F is not exposed to.  If they use G & S both are treated the same.  Different players but the same protection.

I personally believe that requiring shipping insurance is the correct solution.  Barring that I think that allowing F & F is not the best course of action unless the buy is as Dawn suggested a small one with few participants and the amount of money is lost.   

BTW You have a good memory,  the guy who absconded was not much over 5 years ago because I was a relatively new member and I've not been here quite 5 1/2 years yet.


----------



## The Penguin (Mar 26, 2015)

So Smitty - you've changed your mind since the last CSUSA goup buy that I did - and you participated in...

you paid (I believe, and to the best I can figure out from my spreadsheet) using F&F, and refused insurance on your shipping.

I also recall that it was likely you that took me to task via PM or email about our ability to use F&F rather than G&S and that it should have been offered in the original buy.


----------



## jyreene (Mar 26, 2015)

Wow, this is a bunch of going no where. 

TL;DR - We are good using F & F but it doesn't give an address unless entered into the notes section. Insurance should be offered but not required to be purchased.

Monty, it seems the second question has been answered. Unless PayPal changes their software you don't get the address using F & F unless the member enters their address in the comments. For that one I believe it should be up to the Group Buy Coordinator on which option to use. We are within the bounds of PayPal's rules for using F & F but if they don't want to hand type/write everyone's mailing address then they should be the ones to choose G & S or F & F and the Group Buy Rules should state that.

As to the first question, a Group Buy Coordinator should be required to offer, only offer, insurance up to the full value of the package. If a member declines it they should be required to state that in the thread itself so all can see that the member understands that if there is a problem with shipping then they are the ones that are out of the money since they chose not to get insurance. To caveat that it should be required to be sent with a service that offers tracking. USPS, FedEx, and UPS all offer this. The Group Buy I coordinated was all USPS and I had all the tracking numbers. Not all members wanted them but I sent them to all that did.


----------



## Smitty37 (Mar 26, 2015)

The Penguin said:


> So Smitty - you've changed your mind since the last CSUSA goup buy that I did - and you participated in...
> 
> you paid (I believe, and to the best I can figure out from my spreadsheet) using F&F, and refused insurance on your shipping.
> 
> I also recall that it was likely you that took me to task via PM or email about our ability to use F&F rather than G&S and that it should have been offered in the original buy.


You could be right about how I paid and that if you offered insurance I refused it. If it is an option I will refuse Insurance now.  If you were charging extra for G & S I probably would have used F & F to eliminate the charge.  

I think you are wrong that I "took you to task" because you didn't offer F & F in the original buy offer.

What does that have to do with this discussion?  What you allowed in the past, and what I chose to do in the past is not related to the way it should be done.

If any shipper "offers" insurance and disclaims responsibility if I refuse it.  I will refuse it.  I know the shipper is on the hook.  As does Ed from exotics.  

If coordinators want to assume risk with their money that is certainly their business - I do for packages valued less the $200 myself. But I fully understand that if the shipment is lost I am going to make the receiver whole.


----------



## Smitty37 (Mar 26, 2015)

There is one thing to note here - I think but I could be wrong - that Credit Card providers MUST BY LAW have the charge back feature, I think it goes along with their responsibility for lost, stolen or unauthorized use of credit cards and identity theft and all that can of worms.  I believe that Buyer Protection offered by PayPal might come under that same kind of law so the fact that is is only offered to people who use their paypal balance might be related to that.


----------



## ed4copies (Mar 26, 2015)

jyreene said:


> Wow, this is a bunch of going no where.
> 
> TL;DR - We are good using F & F but it doesn't give an address unless entered into the notes section. Insurance should be offered but not required to be purchased.
> 
> ...



The problem is that USPS "tracking" can be wrong.  We have had "delivered" packages that the customer did NOT receive.  If the "receiver" complains to his credit card company or PayPal, they are very likely to reverse the transaction, taking the money from the group buy coordinator.  

BTW, we have had several packages "lost" that were shown as delivered.  So far, their local post office FOUND the package and properly delivered.  The point is, the customer was telling the truth, but would the post office have paid on an insured package that they show as "delivered"??

This IS a RARE occurrence--maybe one in a thousand, but it DOES happen.  We have been fortunate, our customers cooperated completely.  Only one was never found and we replaced it.


----------



## jyreene (Mar 26, 2015)

ed4copies said:


> The problem is that USPS "tracking" can be wrong.  We have had "delivered" packages that the customer did NOT receive.  If the "receiver" complains to his credit card company or PayPal, they are very likely to reverse the transaction, taking the money from the group buy coordinator.
> 
> BTW, we have had several packages "lost" that were shown as delivered.  So far, their local post office FOUND the package and properly delivered.  The point is, the customer was telling the truth, but would the post office have paid on an insured package that they show as "delivered"??



I'm not arguing that the USPS can be wrong. I know they have had that exact scenario with something you shipped me. But was found and delivered. It's something I expect from time to time at my local post office. I did not expect you to be charged but that USPS insurance would cover it up to the amount entered if the package was lost.

All I'm getting at is if the member refuses insurance, which should be publicly stated in the thread when they so refuse, then that is their choice. Forcing members to insure packages even if they are willing to take the risk of items not being received is telling them they don't have any true freedom to choose what risks they take.


----------



## Smitty37 (Mar 26, 2015)

ed4copies said:


> jyreene said:
> 
> 
> > Wow, this is a bunch of going no where.
> ...


 I have experienced the "lost in the post office" myself.  We were away for a few days and had our mail held - a package arrived and was scanned into the post office but never delivered when we restarted the mail.  It took three days, several calls to the post office and my carrier carrying out a search before they found it (pushed behind something).


----------



## Smitty37 (Mar 26, 2015)

jyreene said:


> ed4copies said:
> 
> 
> > The problem is that USPS "tracking" can be wrong.  We have had "delivered" packages that the customer did NOT receive.  If the "receiver" complains to his credit card company or PayPal, they are very likely to reverse the transaction, taking the money from the group buy coordinator.
> ...


Ty, what you seem to be missing is that the 'members' are not choosing to take the risk.  They are putting that risk on the coordinator.  The fact that they were given the option to insure and refused to insure a package that someone else is responsible for until it is delivered will not cut a bit of water with PayPal or a credit card company.  

eBay about 4 or 5 years ago halted what was at that time a common practice of sellers offering shipping insurance and no longer allow it.  *The reason - the shipper is responsible for the shipment until it is delivered.*  That applied to businesses selling on eBay and individuals selling personal items.


----------



## Smitty37 (Mar 26, 2015)

Awhile back some one posted that IAP might have some responsibility if a seller does not deliver in a group buy.  I will almost guarantee that if someone initiates litigation due to a group buy IAP would be a defendant, along with anyone else they can find with an even remote connection to the transaction.  Heck, they'll name someone who was walking their dog past the house at the time the order was sent in.....


----------



## The Penguin (Mar 26, 2015)

Smitty37 said:


> I have experienced the "lost in the post office" myself.  We were away for a few days and had our mail held - a package arrived and was scanned into the post office but never delivered when we restarted the mail.  It took three days, several calls to the post office and my carrier carrying out a search before they found it (pushed behind something).


 
I once did a group buy for Ruth Niles bottle stoppers.

USPS "lost" the box.

a MFRB that weighed 40# (no, I'm not exaggerating) 

they ended up finding it in the dead letter box at my post office - it was one day away from being sent back to Ruth.


----------



## jyreene (Mar 26, 2015)

Smitty37 said:


> jyreene said:
> 
> 
> > ed4copies said:
> ...



I'm not missing a thing Smitty. Trust me. That attitude will lead to no one volunteering for Group Buy Coordinator. Which is not best practice. End of the day I know I won't convince you to change your mind and am not trying. I am putting my two cents in for Monty and the rest of the IAP leadership to make what they feel is the best choice for this site.


----------



## jttheclockman (Mar 26, 2015)

ed4copies said:


> jyreene said:
> 
> 
> > Wow, this is a bunch of going no where.
> ...





Not as rare as you think. I had this happen twice last year (summer)within one month of each other. I was going to file a report and the Post office told me it would take up to a month to get results. They could not tell me how it would turn out. I then went to the seller and they were gracious enough to reimburse me my entire amount. Now we were not talking alot of money but it was the point of it. Not sure how those computer scans work. But how can you show something was delivered but it wasn't. The only thing I can think of is that the packages went to a wrong house and they kept them. This can occur because it is not the same person delivering the mail everyday. 

So many of the questions being asked are in the hands of the postal system and that is the scarey part. Maybe we as a group should look into some sort of umbrella policy for group buys. Don't ask me how but just a thought. 

One other thought, not all credit cards will reimburse you for lost items so stop making that assumption.


----------



## Smitty37 (Mar 26, 2015)

jyreene said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > jyreene said:
> ...


Publically stating in the thread that they are refusing insurance will not remove the liability from the group coordinator.  You appear to think it will. That being said if group coordinators want to put themselves at risk - that is their choice.


----------



## jyreene (Mar 26, 2015)

*Deleted. Comment was not productive to thread.


----------



## KenV (Mar 26, 2015)

On a positive note -- should the worst case event of a lost-in-the-mail package and a charge back occur, I am pretty sure that the IAP member response will take a couple of tracks --  the "low life" that did it will likely be shunned and find little joy in hanging around IAP.   I also expect that the Group Buy Coordinator who gets bit by said "low life" will find a Crowd Sourcing thread that will generate the bucks to make the process whole again.

I do not think a specific policy needs to be developed for this worst case situation, but an awareness of the risks is an important part of the semi-informal group buy process.


----------



## The Penguin (Mar 26, 2015)

Smitty37 said:


> jyreene said:
> 
> 
> > Smitty37 said:
> ...


please do not ask to be included in any group buy that I coordinate.

if I offer the opportunity for you to buy insurance - and you reuse. YOU just took the risk.

But you want to shift that risk back to the coordinator under the guise of "paypal says it's the seller's responsibility to make sure the package is delivered"

(it's a hypothetical situation anyway) - but I do not want to put myself in that position that if I ship you a package and it gets lost - you would file a claim with paypal that would then take money from me (or any other coordinator)

any person coordinating group buys should take note.


----------



## ed4copies (Mar 26, 2015)

The "Worst case" event is not one lost parcel.

The "worst case" is a coordinator collecting $15 grand or so for a CSUSA buy and then taking off, closing his paypal account and falling off the end of the earth.  He has been well paid for the inconvenience of no longer dropping by the IAP.


----------



## KenV (Mar 26, 2015)

Ed -

Upper Case "Worst Case" is fraud.   Has been around humanity for a long long time and it happens.   It happens a lot today in all kinds of situations.   

Whole lot different scale of problem than the lower case "worst case" of someone back charging on a missing shipment (though I have known a few who would do that even if they got the package.)


----------



## Smitty37 (Mar 26, 2015)

The Penguin said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > jyreene said:
> ...



Personal comments don't belong here.  

In the scenero you depict, I don't "shift" the risk back to the coordinator.  It never left him/her.  When someone accepts payment via PayPal or Credit Cards the receiver of the money agrees to abide by their rules. The receivers do not get to make their own rules, whether they're a group buy coordinator or anyone else.


----------



## ed4copies (Mar 26, 2015)

Guys, speaking for myself and, I believe for Smitty, we understand the risks we take and would NOT institute a complaint with a credit card company or Paypal.

Both of us have been here a long time and many people in the Milwaukee chapter would recognize me on the street, so I (and Smitty) would have a lot to lose by shafting a coordinator.  You need not fear us.

However, if you think every member is equally honest, you are NOT correct.  And, their signature lines don't say "I am a thief, beware!!"

As business people, we really better KNOW our risks.  If you would prefer to be a coordinator and ignore those risks---please do so!!!!   In the eyes of Paypal and Credit cards, you take money, you are a business---they handle millions of transactions a day---yours is the same as any other one they handle.

The basis of group buys has always been mutual trust.  None of what we are exploring here is new.  So, if you were happy ignoring it before----please continue!!!  If you did NOT KNOW it before, at least now you can make an informed decision about the involvement with which you are comfortable.  

The way Smitty and I will purport ourselves has not and will not change, just because we know what the options always have been, and still are.

LeRoy, you are free to disagree, but I think this is an accurate summary.

Ed


----------



## The Penguin (Mar 26, 2015)

Smitty37 said:


> Personal comments don't belong here.
> 
> In the scenero you depict, I don't "shift" the risk back to the coordinator.  It never left him/her.  When someone accepts payment via PayPal or Credit Cards the receiver of the money agrees to abide by their rules. The receivers do not get to make their own rules, whether they're a group buy coordinator or anyone else.


 
I didn't make a personal comment, and have avoided doing so.

just a simple statement.

and I made a statement in the thread on your forum which you decided was not germane to the thread and promptly deleted it AFTER you changed your original post.

so I'll avoid making the personal comment and simply say that I'm done.


----------



## Smitty37 (Mar 26, 2015)

The Penguin said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > Personal comments don't belong here.
> ...


please do not ask to be included in any group buy that I coordinate.

if I offer the opportunity for you to buy insurance - and you reuse. YOU just took the risk.

But you want to shift that risk back to the coordinator under the guise of "paypal says it's the seller's responsibility to make sure the package is delivered"  That looks pretty personal to me.

The question I asked in the other thread had nothing to do with this one.  I was not going to debate this issue on another thread.

I agree with Ed's post above.  If any of you have done business with me or Ed you know that we both go far beyond what we would have to do to resolve any problem that comes up with just about anything related to our business.


----------



## Smitty37 (Mar 26, 2015)

ed4copies said:


> Guys, speaking for myself and, I believe for Smitty, we understand the risks we take and would NOT institute a complaint with a credit card company or Paypal.
> 
> Both of us have been here a long time and many people in the Milwaukee chapter would recognize me on the street, so I (and Smitty) would have a lot to lose by shafting a coordinator.  You need not fear us.
> 
> ...


Well said Ed. I agree wholeheartedly.


----------



## jyreene (Mar 26, 2015)

I spoke with PayPal. Friends and Family can be used for this but there is no recourse through them if that option was used. To them there is no connection between an item or service and the F&F option. They said there would be no recourse they could help with. They also said that the only way would be either use the Goods and Services option and/or insurance. They said and/or because if it can be proved that insurance was declined then the individual that received payment under G&S was not liable. 

Does that clear it up?


----------



## Karl_99 (Mar 26, 2015)

I have participated in several group buys and ran at least one.  As a group buy coordinator, I feel that I am responsible for collecting the orders, placing the order with the vendor, receiving and repacking the items and then shipping them out.  After I turn the items over to the post office, my "liability" for the package stops as noted in all of the group buys that I have seen.  If someone has opted for the highly recommended insurance and the package is lost then as the sender, I believe it is my responsibility to help check with the post office to resolve the issue, if possible.  If some does not accept the insurance, then they "accept" full responsibility for the package after it is handed over to the post office.


----------



## Brooks803 (Mar 26, 2015)

Here's an off the wall idea.

Why don't we cut out the random group buy coordinators? Have 1 single person run ALL group buys. Have IAP create a paypal or similar account that would be used to facilitate all group buys. Obviously this person will have to be vetted by Jeff and/or the powers that be, but that's to be ironed out another time. This would take that monetary risk away from those that currently run the various group buys. IAP would generate policies and guidelines for all group buys (insurance vs. no insurance, etc.). This coordinator would receive, repack, and ship all items. 

No matter what there is always the risk of packages getting lost or damaged. That issue would have to be addressed in the new policy and whatever that is any and all participants would fall under that ruling. 

Yes there are shady people that can/will try to make a claim against their purchase (didn't get it...damaged, etc.) when it was received just fine. There's no way around this. However, that has so far been shown to be a very low risk. By putting everything under the umbrella of IAP at least us as individuals cannot be their victim.


----------



## Smitty37 (Mar 26, 2015)

Put your heads in the sand if you like, you have been warned by people who deal with shipping all the time.  Maybe no one will ever get burned.  I hope they don't.


----------



## jttheclockman (Mar 26, 2015)

I was just waiting for this to get into the vendor business end and sure enough there it goes.


----------



## jyreene (Mar 26, 2015)

And they've also been informed by others that deal with shipping all the time, associations like this, legal, and coordinating large groups. Both sides disagree and neither will budge so how about we let Mannie give Jeff a brief. And then let Jeff decide.


----------



## Quality Pen (Mar 26, 2015)

This is a good topic worthy of serious consideration. Despite how heated it may get i am glad our members care enough to broach the topic.

After doing the numerous buys i have in my short time here, these are things i considered every time.


----------



## magier412 (Mar 26, 2015)

You know, honestly, I have been piping in and promoting the side of the coordinator's responsibility ending with shipping.

I have to say, though, Ed and Smitty have made salient points.  

They are merely stating that the opportunity exists for someone to make a claim against a lost package should it be lost between the coordinator and the buyer.  Whether it was actually lost or not.

This is the way that most credit card vendors will enforce payment, and whether we like it or not, that is the way it will work.  It doesn't matter whether we like the coordinator or trust them, it's just the way it is.  This gives the opportunity to the unscrupulous person to do so.

Now, I very often have packages show as delivered when they are not (to me, anyway).  Fortunately, my postal worker almost always delivers them incorrectly to my new friends the Sullivans, and they often have their packages delivered to me.  So we've solved the problem by delivering them ourselves (I was actually yelled at for doing so by a postal supervisor after the same package came back incorrectly twice and I finally gave up and delivered it myself and then reported it to the PO...SMH)...anyway...I digress.

I guess what I'm saying is, I can see what Ed and Smitty are saying a bit more clearly now.

There will always be inherent risk to the coordinator, it's not alleviated by insurance, and it should be noted.

There are unscrupulous people out there, and since IAP is growing beyond a friendly little group - no matter how much everyone wishes it weren't - perhaps the time for group buys is over.  

It may be that one of the vendors would like to take pre-orders and take something similar on - or not - but it seems like it may be too much to continue to do this any longer as a group buy thing without making it more of a pain that it's worth.

There's a point where groups get too big and lose the ability to do these things...it's the bad side of growing, unfortunately.

Just my two cents.  And my opinion alone...nothing personal, and nothing cast in stone as far as I'm concerned...basically...just sayin'


----------



## Quality Pen (Mar 26, 2015)

And so the "premier IAP membership" was born!



LOL, I am just kidding :biggrin::biggrin:


----------



## MesquiteMan (Mar 26, 2015)

Smitty37 said:


> Buyer protection is to protect the buyer against loss....*  And, it is free.*



Actually, its not free!  It costs 2.9% plus $.30 per transaction in the form of Paypal fees that will get passed on to the purchaser in a group buy situation.


----------



## eajacobson (Mar 26, 2015)

So, Ed, Smitty, and others,

As PP and CC are there to protect the buyer, and insurance really doesn't cover all the issues that could come up - are you proposing that IAP no longer encourage group buys, or even forcibly prevent members from trying to coordinate one in the IAP forums?

Maybe we have to go back to "Personal checks only. Orders will be placed once all checks clear the bank."

Ed


----------



## Smitty37 (Mar 26, 2015)

eajacobson said:


> So, Ed, Smitty, and others,
> 
> As PP and CC are there to protect the buyer, and insurance really doesn't cover all the issues that could come up - are you proposing that IAP no longer encourage group buys, or even forcibly prevent members from trying to coordinate one in the IAP forums?
> 
> ...


No at least I am making no such proposal.


----------



## duncsuss (Mar 27, 2015)

Leroy mentioned something several pages back which seems to have gone unnoticed by everyone. I only just remembered it, and went looking to see what it's about.

*PayPal Seller Protection

*It's worth the time to read what this is & what it covers, since it goes a long way towards restoring a balance of power between seller and buyer.

https://www.paypal.com/webapps/mpp/security/seller-protection


----------



## Smitty37 (Mar 27, 2015)

MesquiteMan said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > Buyer protection is to protect the buyer against loss....*  And, it is free.*
> ...


 Using G & S the fee is a transaction fee paid by the receiver of the funds.  It will be deducted from the receivers account whether or not they get reimbursed.


----------



## Smitty37 (Mar 27, 2015)

duncsuss said:


> Leroy mentioned something several pages back which seems to have gone unnoticed by everyone. I only just remembered it, and went looking to see what it's about.
> 
> *PayPal Seller Protection
> 
> ...


Good idea there are a couple of things in there that people should be aware of.  Like it must be a single payment covering the entire transaction or buyer protection will not apply.


----------



## Smitty37 (Mar 27, 2015)

If I were to give advice on Group Buys I would require insurance regardless of who the carrier is.  Depending on the packaging and value this might be included in the carriers normal fee. USPS Priority mail up to $50 and UPS up to $100. 

This protects both buyer and seller in case of items lost in shipping and generally gives both the buyer and seller at least some protection for damaged shipments.  If something bad happens these are the most common cause of disputes and the most likely to happen.

Buyer protection and credit card charge backs can protect the buyer to a certain degree from seller who take the money but do not ship the product. By PayPal's own statements Credit Card Charge backs are problably better.  (they use the term "broader protection" I think.)

To those who have called PayPal and talked to one of their employees -- PayPal is not bound by anything they say to you over the phone regarding any of their policies, terms and conditions of use. Only by what is writen that you signed off that you read, understand and will abide by.  Even though if you are at all like me you never have read and probably would have a hard time finding on their web site.


----------



## jttheclockman (Mar 27, 2015)

I think this topic is taking on a couple different avenues. Without alienating anyone, here is what I see. The vendors here will do what they have to do to protect their interest but also the buyers. The buyers will not lose and why is that because it is the members here that made those vendors over the years and they will not risk losing them or others as customers because bad word of mouth is killer in the buying and selling business. You see this in the jeers and cheers section. So that being said the organizers of GB is a different topic. There is no monetary gain for them in the present or the future and that is what distinguishes them from vendors. So please leave out the comparisons to Amazon or any other vendor here. No it is not the same thing.

What i see needs to be done for future GBs is set some ground rules that need to be followed by all that partake. First let me say anyone who partakes in a GB is a winner right from the get-go. You are receiving an item or items that you normally would have to pay a higher amount if you bought them on your own. In a GB you are using the power of numbers. When vendors buy inventory they buy in bulk and get those discounts because of volume. How they pass them on to you or if they do is their business. In the case of a GB you are eliminating the middleman because again there is no gain for the coordinator. He or she is doing a feel good thing for the group. 

What we need to do is find the way that all parties are protected. Weather insurance is the answer in both ends then so be it. This thing about Paypal and addresses is to me a nonissue. Offer it either way and go from there but again insurance is mandatory. For the small amount of money on your order it is worth it. Remember you still are ahead because of the reduced prices. If you bought on your own you would have to make your own decisions. Whatever cost are endured by organizer will be passed on in the final total to each partaker. If there is a Paypal expense pass it on and it is understood. There will be a set of rules that all coordinators of GB will follow. 

So to sum up I think the insurance question is the thing that needs to worked out. This is how I see it.


----------



## The Penguin (Mar 27, 2015)

here is my opinion on this after much thinking and reading of other comments

any group buy that I coordinate in the future will be offered with the following options:

1. Participants of group buys (coordinated by me) wanting to use "Goods & Services"  transfers will pay any applicable Paypal fees + I will *REQUIRE *shipping insurance on any FRB that exceed $50 in value (or all shipments not sent by FRB). Obviously this adds cost to their buy and nearly defeats the purpose of a group buy by the time all the additional fees/insurance are paid.

2. Participants of group buys (coordinated by me) wanting to use "Friends & Family" transfers to pay for their group buy will be given the opportunity to purchase insurance for every package. If shipping insurance is refused - any loss is on the "buyer". If you don't trust me to follow through - then don't participate in the buy.

3. If I make mistake - that is on me and I will work with the buyer to correct the mistake to our mutual satisfaction. That may involve mutual return shipping or additional coordination/shipping between me and the participant. If it's "my" fault - I'll eat the shipping cost. If it's "your" fault - you eat it.

4. If you don't like rules 1, 2 or 3 - don't participate.


----------



## KenV (Mar 27, 2015)

Shawn - good approach 

Suggest documentation of the assumption -

Group Buys will use PayPal or similar financial service to handle funds.

Participants using PayPal Friends and Family payment option may choose to self insure shipments from the Coordinator.   Self Insurance means that the Coordinator will furnish tracking numbers at shipment and all responsibility for the shipment to the participant becomes the participants  responsibility. 


It is better to describe the positive action --  self insurance.


----------



## jyreene (Mar 27, 2015)

That sounds very reasonable.


----------



## MesquiteMan (Mar 27, 2015)

Smitty37 said:


> MesquiteMan said:
> 
> 
> > Smitty37 said:
> ...



And there is no such thing as a free lunch!!  Even in our respective businesses, those fees are being passed along to the customer in the form of overhead and cost of doing business!  With a group buy, they are being passed back to the customer.  Believe me, I know all about Paypal fees.  I use Paypal exclusively for my business and let's just say, I spend a LOT of money on Paypal fees every year.


----------



## Timbo (Mar 27, 2015)

Wow!  Little did I know that making a casual call to Paypal, then questioning our GB process would lead to such a robust discussion.  It's all good...there's nothing wrong with shaking things up once in a while.  

I kind of like the way The Penquin summed it up in post #106.  I've been a buyer and a coordinator, those rules would work for me in either role.

Let's face it, there has always been some level of risk involved with participating in a GB, that be weather you're a buyer or coordinator.  I don't personally know anyone who's GBs I've participated in, or who participated in my buys.  Like most of you, there's a level of trust we have in the process and people that overcomes whatever level of risk there is.  If there wasn't you would not run, nor participate in a GB.  I don't believe those dynamics will change just because the F&F option has been thrown into the mix.  Actually, from some of the posts I've read it sounds like some folks have already been using it.

I for one look forward to some new GB guidelines that includes the use of the F&F payment option.


----------



## Smitty37 (Mar 27, 2015)

MesquiteMan said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > MesquiteMan said:
> ...


*Me too*.
My point Curtis, is just that if G & S is used that fee is going to be charged even if for any of several possible reasons, the Buyer Protection is not available so they really don't pay anything extra for just buyer protection..


----------



## Monty (Mar 29, 2015)

I would like to thank everyone for their input. I'm closing this thread to further discussion. A few minor modifications to Group Buys will be posted within the next few days.


----------

