# What would be the next step up from kit pens?



## rodtod11 (Jan 11, 2014)

I've been making pens over the last year and progressed from the slimlines , through different materials, and into the higher end kits such as the Broadwells. HOWEVER, where do you go from there?  As nice as the high end pens are, they are still kits. Do any of you do your own hardware? If so, how do you learn that?  What is the next level from a kit pen and how do you learn?


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## Displaced Canadian (Jan 11, 2014)

Not everybody does the steps in order. To do pens that aren't strictly kit pens usually involves different tooling. Not all has to be bought, plenty of it can be made. For most it would be modifying kit pens. Making your own nibs or doing closed end pens. I do more custom work now because it's fun and you get a lot of enjoyment out of your pen making dollars. Just don't think that making your own hardware is a way to save money. You buy less kits but you will spend more on tooling.


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## BSea (Jan 11, 2014)

The next step would be kitless, or custom. It involves using taps and dies, and buying some components like clips.  Probably the easiest to make (but by no means simple) is a kitless click pen. There is a good write up in the library on how it's done, and just what you need. 

Here's the link: http://content.penturners.org/library/pens/kitlessclickpen.pdf


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## greeneyedblackcat (Jan 11, 2014)

Sounds like your heading towards a metal lathe purchase, lots of good build info on the IAP. If you do go the metal lathe route head to ebay and purchase this book http://www.ebay.com/itm/How-to-Run-a-Lathe-South-Bend-care-and-operation-Lindsay-how-to-book-/390737344240?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5af9c2b6f0
Its an oldie but a "Goodie" Lots of basic metal lathe knowledge. Hope this helps. GEBC :cat:


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## ed4copies (Jan 11, 2014)

Have you made closed end?
Hidden clip?

Mastered every resin?  Subdued mammoth ivory and various animal bones?

There are many ways to improve your skills, while using the basic pieces that come in a kit.  AND you get a durable pen when you are finished.


You CAN become a more accomplished turner and penmaker, without becoming a machinist.
FWIW,
Ed


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## BRobbins629 (Jan 11, 2014)

Everyone is a little different, but one approach is to take some jewelry classes to learn how to work with copper, brass and eventually silver.  There are many of these around the country.  You then can fabricate centerbands, clips, overlays, etc. and develop your signature look.


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## hard hat (Jan 12, 2014)

From kits I would say to venture down kit-bashing (modifying kits). Just as Ed said, have you made hidden clips? Closed end pens? Take a look at the IAP library, there are some great articles on modifying that take the basic and make it challenging. 
  Here are a few ideas based on what I did:
-Make a closed end slimline
-Make a closed end navigator/jr gent. The body can be extended, or both can be closed end. The clip can be hidden with the closed end as well. 
-make a slim look like a euro by changing the center
- make a navigator/jr gent into a twist pen instead of capped. 

These can all be done without a metal lathe or any specialty tooling. I spent months and lots of money acquiring parts and tools before making my first completely kitless pen.


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## rodtod11 (Jan 12, 2014)

ed4copies said:


> Have you made closed end?
> Hidden clip?
> 
> Mastered every resin?  Subdued mammoth ivory and various animal bones?
> ...


  Ed,
     Nothing at all against kits. I will be a continuing customer of Exotic Blanks. Guys, Exotic Blanks is a great way to go. They got a new material once and when I asked how it was they sent me one free of charge. I loved it and ordered several more. Then, when a very LARGE  online Pen site we all know of and visit ran out of bushings, Exotic Blanks came to the rescue. The other place just notified me that they got the bushings...one month AFTER  I needed them to make a retirement gift set I was paid to do. I called Exotic Blanks, and they pulled out all the stops to help me and got them to me in just a few days , and saved the day AND my reputation. Great Customer Service there and I would definitly recommend them as your first stop for pen supplies.


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## ed4copies (Jan 12, 2014)

I guess I feel somewhat strongly about 'kitless'--NOT because I think it will take away customers from Exotics---instead because I think the end product requires more time and expertise to create (thus producing a product that is higher price) while it does NOT enhance the durability of the end product.  

While penmakers were brutal about "plastic couplers" in the component sets (kits), claiming they were breaking at the drop of a pen, so to speak, we now see 'kitless' featuring a single piece of ebonite, threaded from outside and inside.  This is NOT a durable design, no matter how expertly it is executed.

So, please take my comments with a grain of salt---when I started doing shows, there were lots of penmakers who thought selling pens would give them a way to further their hobby.  When they got tired of it, and quit, I was left to repair what they made, as the oldest exhibitor who made pens.  I saw some very shoddy pen assembly.  So, durability has a "meaning" to me.  

Some 'kitless' makers make masterpieces that are engineered for longevity.  Which is good, because I know I could never repair their work!!!  

Take whatever road you enjoy--

For me, the ability to turn any material that you put on a lathe is my personal reward for a 2 decade long enjoyment of making "kit pens".  AND I can still sell one for pretty good money and know it is a job well done!!!

But that is only one path----there are others, I'm sure!!!!

Ed


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## plantman (Jan 12, 2014)

Segmenting and bandless would be the next step. Without using the band that comes with the kit, you can make the pen any size or shape that you want. Simple segmenting is simple to do, but intricate segmenting requires exact straight cuts and good glue up practices. Kitless pen making requires an investment in time and tools, and leads to many Oh S$$t moments. Look in the library, it's all there someplace or, as you did, ask questions. I find our members are more than willing to answer them and point out mistakes they may have made along the way that will save you time and money.     Jim  S


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## rodtod11 (Jan 12, 2014)

ed4copies said:


> I guess I feel somewhat strongly about 'kitless'--NOT because I think it will take away customers from Exotics---instead because I think the end product requires more time and expertise to create (thus producing a product that is higher price) while it does NOT enhance the durability of the end product.
> 
> While penmakers were brutal about "plastic couplers" in the component sets (kits), claiming they were breaking at the drop of a pen, so to speak, we now see 'kitless' featuring a single piece of ebonite, threaded from outside and inside.  This is NOT a durable design, no matter how expertly it is executed.
> 
> ...


Ed, 
   Those are some very good points. Durability is very important. I've had a few break after only a couple of months. That, does not make me happy as it reflects directly on me. I have to say, the high end kits, Broadwells, Majestics , etc make fantastic pens. I am currently finishing up on a three piece Majestic set, you saved my tail on when you found those bushings. Now, that is  a pen set that will be with this guy for the rest of his life. The components are top notch. So I definitely agree with you on that. That set is of such good quality I would be surprised if it ever needs a repair with normal use.


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## kovalcik (Jan 13, 2014)

Lots of good info above. There is a long way to go before you need to purchase the metal lathe and tap & die sets.  There are good articles in the library on modifying slimlines.  Some mods are simple like a custom center band or closed end (which can also translate to other pen styles).  Others are much more involved resulting in a pen that has very little visually in common with the slimline you know. There are also some very good articles on different segmenting styles.  You can look at fully segmented blanks  made up from smaller pieces or accented segmenting like scallops or celtic knots.    You may also want to look into casting to make your own blanks.  You can start with a can of PR from Michaels and a foil mold for the most basic casting.  

While custom pens are always an option, they seem to require more tooling and patience than I am willing to spend right now.  Fortunately there are many other facets you can explore that are challenging, still take advantage of kits, and can be done with basic workshop tools.


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## Haynie (Jan 13, 2014)

Your next step is wholly up to you.  What do you want to do?


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## LeeR (Jan 13, 2014)

If you do decide to buy a small metal lathe, check out littlemachineshop.com

I kind of kick myself for selling my 7x10 mini lathe 5-6 years ago, but it was before I had a woos lathe, and of course before discovering pen turning.  The little 7X10 (or 7X12) would be an inexpensive way to test the waters for you, with metal turning. My biggest issue with the 

The lath I would love to get is the 8.5X16 lathe at Little Machine Shop.   

Also, they are a very reasonable place to buy accessories, like collets.  I bought a Beall Collet Chuck for my wood lathe from Lee Valley, but bought all my collets from LMS.

Personally, I am resisting plunging back into metal until I've dome a lot more with wood and acrylic, and combinations of both, and also tried some custom work like closed-end pens.


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## BSea (Jan 13, 2014)

You don't need a metal lathe to kitless.  Most people that do kitless, do it on a wood lathe to start. Then they may advance to using a metal lathe.  If you look at many of the pens made by watch_art, he only recently started using a metal lathe.  He build hundreds on a wood lathe.  You do need some taps & dies.  So if you want to go that route, buy the basics to start.  DO NOT BUY any triple start taps & dies until you know that you want to really get into doing kitless on a regular basis.  They are really expensive, and not necessary for doing a kitless pen.

Pick a style you like, and buy just what you need for that style.


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