# For those using the new Heritance taps



## DCBluesman (May 27, 2009)

I received an email this evening with the following proposition.



> I was also wondering if you could swing some influence with Tapco for a die of the same pattern. The reasoning is to make a mandrel that the section will screw onto to hold while turning the style of choice. A die would match the tapped threads of the inside.
> Any thoughts, other than the whipping of a dead horse?


 
I had not considered the advantage of having a die to make a mandrel for turning. Before I make myself even crazier than I already am, would this be a valuable idea? Would we be better off just having some custom mandrels made which could be held in a collet chuck? Is there a better idea out there?

Keep in mind that since there are two taps, there would need to be two dies.

Please give me your thoughts and experience. I'm not looking for commitments at this point in time.


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## BRobbins629 (May 27, 2009)

A matched set would be nice.  Was thinking along the same lines.  Judging by the prices we got for the triple start sets, other than a one time charge for a tool, the dies were almost 1/3 the cost of the taps, so maybe it would not be too expensive.   

Other longer term possibility is to get the pieces unthreaded.  That way we could get common taps and dies of the same diameter


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## ed4copies (May 27, 2009)

REmembering that I turn FAST, not FINE:  Won't the stress on those threads be likely to strip them (or at least make them sloppy) ??

And would the threads be tightening or loosening as the barrel spins on the lathe?  If loosening, the idea is shot.


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## DCBluesman (May 27, 2009)

BRobbins629 said:


> Other longer term possibility is to get the pieces unthreaded. That way we could get common taps and dies of the same diameter


 
When I was dealing with the engineers for the housings, we discussed having the threads be standard.  Their thought was that more folks would have a standard drill bit and access to standard drill bits.  Since I have no engineering background, and since these guys are pen experts, I decided to follow their suggestion.


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## kirkfranks (May 27, 2009)

I would think that a serious look at having a machine shop (or one of our guys) to make the threaded mandrels would be less expensive than the custom die.
Can't a CNC lathe make the oddball thread as well as a standard?


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## babyblues (May 28, 2009)

ed4copies said:


> REmembering that I turn FAST, not FINE:  Won't the stress on those threads be likely to strip them (or at least make them sloppy) ??
> 
> And would the threads be tightening or loosening as the barrel spins on the lathe?  If loosening, the idea is shot.



It should tighten if the threads are clockwise.  If you're twisting the blank clockwise to mount on your mandrel and your headstock is spinning counterclockwise, it would tighten not loosen.


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## PTJeff (May 28, 2009)

Ed, even if you turn fast, you could make the mandrel with a shoulder to seat the section against and not rely on the threads to seat the section while turning.

Kirk, buy one die and make a hundred mandrels, the only constant is the nib housing.  you then have the infinite design capacity for sections.

My vote is for a die to match each tap.


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## ed4copies (May 28, 2009)

The OLD bottle stoppers were turned, using their threads (Yes, they were once threaded).  I had a terrible time - but I was a very strong young man who knew nothing about sharpening tools.  

You are dealing with the better turners, one would think.


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## cnirenberg (May 28, 2009)

Lou,
I haven't had the coin as of late to get your custom taps, but I have made a threaded rod to match the tap size on my pens so that I can reverse turn the caps/barrels and finish the closed ends.  I like the matching die size option.  Possibly, could have a custom threaded rod made out of good steel stock as an option, I really don't know which one is cost efficient.  I'm going to go with the custom die so that the purchaser has the option to do what he/she is necessary to get the job done.  I hope this helps.


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## Russianwolf (May 28, 2009)

okay, someone walk me through this as I can't see a benefit to having a die to match the nib holder.

The section that people will be making will have threads inside for the holder, and presumably outside to go into the pen body. The threads that would need to be matched, in my mind, would be the ones on the outside, which the turner should already have since they made the threads.

If I'm missing something, please.........


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## workinforwood (May 28, 2009)

You are missing something Mike.  I have little experience, all failures, but I am learning from those and understanding why they happen.  because of this, I would like a die to match the tap or a pre-made threaded mandrel.  If you wait too long before the pen is tapped to recieve the nib assembly, the tap pressure pushing outwards from the inside wants to crack the pen.  So you need to tap it with some meat on it still.  Now you have a new problem.  Because the pen is tapped on the inside, as the walls on the outside are turned thinner, the pen turns fine except the area that was tapped.  That area starts to get jumpy and nasty because there is no physical support between the threads.  This is why Steve told me to tap the pen, then take a matching bolt that fits the threads in the pen.  Turn away all the threads but near the bold head area or vise versa.  This way the bolt will now slide all the way into the pen and the threaded part of the bolt threads into the Tapped pen portion, providing support for the entire pen.  The empty space between the threads is where there is no support otherwise.  I vote Yes, a Die is needed, but I would prefer someone make a mandrel for people like me that don't have the equipment to accomplish that task with ease.

I hope my explanation helps you Mike and Lou.  I know what I'm saying but not if I'm conveying it right.


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## cnirenberg (May 29, 2009)

Russianwolf said:


> okay, someone walk me through this as I can't see a benefit to having a die to match the nib holder.
> 
> The section that people will be making will have threads inside for the holder, and presumably outside to go into the pen body. The threads that would need to be matched, in my mind, would be the ones on the outside, which the turner should already have since they made the threads.
> 
> If I'm missing something, please.........



Mike,
To turn a closed end pen, I do all of my drilling, thread cutting before I mess with the outside of the blank.  With the tooling I have it works for me.  I expect it would be different should I have a collet chuck set up.  To turn the outside, I threaded a rod with the same tap thread and a adjustable stop collar.  Again, This seems to work for me.  I tried using a pin chuck setup, but had better sucess with the threaded rod  method.
I don't think you are missing something, I should have been more clear.  My bad-sorry.


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## PTJeff (Jun 3, 2009)

Lou,
It's been about a week, have we swayed you one way or the other for the dies?


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## DCBluesman (Jun 3, 2009)

I have had several people inquire about dies for these two taps.  The problem I am having is the cost.  They are even more expensive than the taps.  If I order a dozen, I can get the large dies for about $43 and the small for about $40.  Who is still interested?


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## workinforwood (Jun 4, 2009)

How about a 4" long threaded rod with the same threads as the tap..can you get that?  I can file all the threads off the rod but the ones I need.  Then you just drill the pen to fit the rod, Tap the pen then push in the rod and screw it into the threads, mount the other end of the rod into a chuck and start spinning.  That's simple as pie...theoretically anyhow.


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## cnirenberg (Jun 4, 2009)

Anyone with a metal lathe interested in threading rod?


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## Russianwolf (Jun 4, 2009)

Honestly, sounds like something our old pal Johnnycnc might be able to work out.


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## cnirenberg (Jun 4, 2009)

Russianwolf said:


> Honestly, sounds like something our old pal Johnnycnc might be able to work out.



I was just thinking that.


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## DCBluesman (Jun 4, 2009)

I sent an inquiry to John.  I'll let you know what he thinks.


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## PTJeff (Jun 5, 2009)

Well it looks like there are several other good options to work through before enough people are willing to make the die thing happen.
If it happens count me in.


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## Darley (Jun 5, 2009)

DCBluesman said:


> I have had several people inquire about dies for these two taps.  The problem I am having is the cost.  They are even more expensive than the taps.  If I order a dozen, I can get the large dies for about $43 and the small for about $40.  Who is still interested?



I would be interested count me in if it happen


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## BRobbins629 (Jun 5, 2009)

I would get a set if you go ahead.


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## PTJeff (Jun 5, 2009)

I can't do any better than this either:
(6 to 11) M6.4 X .5  1"OD Round Adjusrtable HSS Die @ $59.00 and 2 weeks to make.
    (12)   M6.4 X .5  1"OD Round Adjusrtable HSS Die @ $54.00 and 2 weeks to make.

(6 to 11) M8.4 X .75  1"OD Round Adjusrtable HSS Die @ $47.00 and 2 weeks to make.
    (12)    M8.4 X .75  1"OD Round Adjusrtable HSS Die @ $42.00 and 2 weeks to make.


the other company just laughed

Lou's got the deal so far, now to get 12 people on board


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## DCBluesman (Jun 5, 2009)

I received a response from Johnnycnc and he is unable to take on a project like this.  With that in mind.  The die buy is a go.  Once I get final information, I will post it in the MVV Classified forum.  Thanks for the discussion!


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## its_virgil (Jun 5, 2009)

I'm in for the two dies also. Thanks Lou.
Don


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## johncrane (Jun 6, 2009)

Lou!
l will help with the numbers


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## workinforwood (Jun 7, 2009)

Obviously I'll be requiring one of the smaller dies


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## apple320 (Jun 15, 2009)

*Using the tap as a drive screw*

When I am doing some of my closed ends etc I turn the tap in till it's snug and then tighten it into the chuck and away I go.  All of my lamy closed ended pens are done this way.

Just my .02  Canadian

Chris


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## greeneyedblackcat (Jun 22, 2009)

I'm not a closed end guy but would a mandrel spun on a metal lathe from metric threaded rod do the trick?  .Just a thought


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## BRobbins629 (Jun 22, 2009)

greeneyedblackcat said:


> I'm not a closed end guy but would a mandrel spun on a metal lathe from metric threaded rod do the trick?  .Just a thought


Only if it was a standard thread.  These are not


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## greeneyedblackcat (Jun 22, 2009)

BRobbins629 said:


> Only if it was a standard thread. These are not


Whats the thread ?  SAE ?  Metric ? Something else?


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## BRobbins629 (Jun 22, 2009)

greeneyedblackcat said:


> Whats the thread ?  SAE ?  Metric ? Something else?


The threads are M6.4x0.5 and M8.4x0.75.


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## workinforwood (Jun 24, 2009)

Is there something beyond SAE and Metric?  Tell you what I do know...the small nib and tap is m6.4 as Bruce says.  That is a slim size fountain pen.  The inside diameter of a 7mm tube is only a couple thousands smaller than the tap.  Being a pen tube is Brass, the tap easily removes that extra couple thousands, leaving you with a perfect thread for the nib insert.  This means a person can do much more with much less.  You can spin a custom pen of wood or plastic with a 7mm hole.  You can use your basic bushings or mandrels or chucks that you might use for a closed end slim.  You can simply snip a short section of 7mm tube, insert it into the end of the pen and tap it..instant fountain pen.  It's pretty sweet for those of us with less tooling.


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## DCBluesman (Jun 24, 2009)

Also, the large tap will work for a 3/8" tube...so, no need for a die as you can simply use small portions of existing tube sizes for stability!


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## PTJeff (Jun 25, 2009)

Lou,
speaking of die, any update on these?


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## GPDMTR25 (Jul 10, 2009)

*Are they in the works?*

I just order the taps. Wondering if the dies will be here??
Angela


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