# Best of IAP Contest Questions



## Scott (May 25, 2011)

We are holding a little contest later this summer in conjunction with Woodturning Design Magazine.  We have come up with four categories, which are:  Casting, Segmenting, Kitless and Open class.  I have the rules written for this contest, but I have a couple of questions on some of the categories.

In the “Casting” category, should the casting be done by the individual submitting the pen, or should they be allowed to purchase the cast blanks?

Same for the Segmenting category, should the penmaker produce the segmented blank or can they be allowed to purchase all or part of the blank?

In the kitless category, should we allow as many kit parts as they want as long as they aren’t visible, or should we limit the kit parts to only a few certain parts?  If so, which parts should we limit it to?  My idea is to allow any kit parts as long as none are visible when the pen is closed, with the exception of a clip.

Other comments on this contest are gladly accepted, although I have a relatively short time to get this done.  Thanks!

Scott.


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## turbowagon (May 25, 2011)

My thoughts:

- casting should be done by the contest entrant

- segmenting should be done by the contest entrant

- kitless: either approach sounds reasonable.  Whatever you decide should be fine.

- open: anything goes.  Perhaps limit it to kit pens though, since there is already a kitless category.


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## witz1976 (May 25, 2011)

I agree with Joe's comments.


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## Drstrangefart (May 25, 2011)

turbowagon said:


> My thoughts:
> 
> - casting should be done by the contest entrant
> 
> ...



I totally agree.


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## MarkD (May 25, 2011)

turbowagon said:


> My thoughts:
> 
> - casting should be done by the contest entrant
> 
> ...




I totally agree with each of these answers


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## IPD_Mr (May 25, 2011)

I think Joe is spot on with his post.

I have to say Joe is pretty sharp for his age.  :biggrin:


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## Padre (May 25, 2011)

I agree with Joe.


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## Manny (May 25, 2011)

Joe you are like a seer!
I agree
Manny


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## omb76 (May 25, 2011)

turbowagon said:


> My thoughts:
> 
> - casting should be done by the contest entrant
> 
> ...



Definitely agree as well.


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## Andrew_K99 (May 25, 2011)

No need to restate what Joe hit on the head with his answer.

AK


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## ed4copies (May 25, 2011)

Depends!!!

You want more or fewer entries?

If you allow "non-casters" to purchase blanks, you will have more entries---probably a GOOD thing.  On the other hand, you will have more than one person (conceivably) showing the same blank, cast by the same person (a problem??)

Same thing with the segmenting:  3 guys could all purchase a beautiful herringbone (all made by the same talented "bone guy").  This gives you three times as many entrants (a good thing), but makes your judges throw out the herringbone, since you can't have three tied winners.

So, the last consideration:  Will the talented blank-makers choose to enter a pen, made from their masterpieces???  If so, the best of the best will come out.

If not---a "second rate" entry could win.

I don't wanna be a judge!!!!!


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## OKLAHOMAN (May 25, 2011)

Just to be a PITA, I disagree , no I agree, no I disagree,no I agree.
Alkl kidding aside Joe hit the nail flush on the head...


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## BRobbins629 (May 25, 2011)

Agree with 1 and 2.  Personally I think open and kitless should be combined into 1 category called open - anything goes. No definitions or subjectivity required.


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## mredburn (May 25, 2011)

I also agree on 1 and 2 this encourages and rewards those that make these Items themselves. Are you trying to encourage the advancement of pen making with these contests or just participation? If you limit the entries to self made, you encourage the participants to stretch their abilities to compete. IF kitless I would recommend limiting the kit parts to nib feed assemblies and refills. In open I think it should be defined as "Thats a pen?" this would be a great category for pens that don't look like the standard pen shape. For example rockets, planes, cannons, feathers, trombone parts. etc.

For participation I would add a general beautiful pen category open to those that make pens from components they have chosen. (You notice I didn't say kits:biggrin


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## ed4copies (May 25, 2011)

What about transmissions?  For the kitless---or do we assume everyone will do rollerballs or fountains?


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## mredburn (May 25, 2011)

Oooops forgot about transmissions. OF course no one says they have to be functional after they are made.


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## ed4copies (May 25, 2011)

IF anyone makes ballpoints, there will be a number of "hidden components"---but then, for kitless---do we need ballpoints?

In fact, for CONTESTS, do we need ballpoints??  SHOULD creativity be channeled toward the "high end", thus eliminating ballpoints???


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## maxwell_smart007 (May 25, 2011)

I think that one should cast his/her own blanks - that way, the caster of the feather blanks (for example) could enter his own product without worrying about twenty people also submitting what is essentially his work.  

Make it entirely self-created, and then you'll see a lot of neat entries, I think! 

Andrew


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## MartinPens (May 25, 2011)

mredburn said:
			
		

> I also agree on 1 and 2 this encourages and rewards those that make these Items themselves. Are you trying to encourage the advancement of pen making with these contests or just participation? If you limit the entries to self made, you encourage the participants to stretch their abilities to compete. IF kitless I would recommend limiting the kit parts to nib feed assemblies and refills. In open I think it should be defined as "Thats a pen?" this would be a great category for pens that don't look like the standard pen shape. For example rockets, planes, cannons, feathers, trombone parts. etc.
> 
> For participation I would add a general beautiful pen category open to those that make pens from components they have chosen. (You notice I didn't say kits:biggrin



I like Joe's comments and also Mikes.
I like the idea of having kitless include closed pens with no parts showing apart from the clip. That opens it up a little more to those who don't have the ability yet to do their own threading. I have to admit that I like this for selfish reasons! : )  I would enter a pen in this category in this case.  Also on the last category - open - I don't think requiring it to use a kit is really very "open."  Keep it as open as possible. This is the "out of the box" category. Require the pen to be functional.

I hope you will post more details on this contest here in this thread as time goes on. I will subscribe to the thread and keep my eyes open as I read the magazine.  I love the challenge of a good contest - it inspires me and motivates me to get the juices flowing.

Martin

Sent from my iPad using Forum Runner


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## G1Pens (May 25, 2011)

I go with the flow...I go with Joe


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## Andrew_K99 (May 25, 2011)

I think the term kitless REALLY needs to be defined.  I've seen quite a few pens that IMO aren't as kitless as stated.  They're highly modified kits.

AK


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## mredburn (May 25, 2011)

Do we need ball points? no. Should we eliminate them from the contests? again  no.  You could have a fountain pen only category or sub category but where do you draw the line on how many subcategories are you going to have. We all like to win but to make winning mean something it has to be the best of the best and not devalued by giving everybody that enters a blue ribbon for participation.  Part of these decisions will be decide by the direction and focus of the contest. I realize time is short and it would be hard to build a contest that had both a generalized pretty pen with lots of subcategories for the people who make pens from components and a down and dirty competition of the best of the best.  Personally will support which ever way it goes down.  the only way to lose would be to not have one or not participate when they do. I am taking it for granted that this contest will be open to people other than members of the IAP. That we are simply hosting it.


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## Monty (May 25, 2011)

Scott said:


> In the “Casting” category, should the casting be done by the individual submitting the pen, or should they be allowed to purchase the cast blanks?


Like the others, I think it should be made by the person making the pen, but how will you verify this? Hope no two use the same blank?



Scott said:


> Same for the Segmenting category, should the penmaker produce the segmented blank or can they be allowed to purchase all or part of the blank?


Same thoughts as above.



Scott said:


> In the kitless category, should we allow as many kit parts as they want as long as they aren’t visible, or should we limit the kit parts to only a few certain parts?  If so, which parts should we limit it to?  My idea is to allow any kit parts as long as none are visible when the pen is closed, with the exception of a clip.


If you allow any part that does not show, then you essentially have a closed end pen, not a kitless pen.


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## ldb2000 (May 25, 2011)

I agree with Joe on 1 and 2 . To answer Ed's comment on the kitless I think that Ballpoints should be allowed . As many here know I make more ballpoints then fountain pens . In my area fountain pens just don't sell , most people around here are in the contracting and medical fields and fountain pens just aren't an option for these people . I know I'm not alone in this . I find that making an exceptional ballpoint pen is much more challenging then a fountain pen but the difficulty involved is very under appreciated . 
As for the Open category , I think it should be just that , Open to ALL . It should be judged on more then just beauty though . Personally I like the idea of combining the kitless and open into one category and judging it on several levels such as , Kitless , Modified kit , Beauty and Technical difficulty .


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## KenV (May 25, 2011)

Scott --- the answer depends on what you are trying to measure --  

If the creation of cast blanks is the objective to be measured you get perhaps a different answer than an objective of getting the best quality workmanship on a custom cast blank.  There is a possiblity that the caster is a premier pen builder, but there is also a pretty good chance you will have some very talented casting folks who are not as good at penmaking.

Are you going to allow casting to include those who build on tubes and then over cast??  or just those who mix and blend colors and materials?   

Contests are a tricky topic --- what are the real objectives and the limits??


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## Scott (May 25, 2011)

Hi Everybody!  Thanks for the great responses!

When I was writing the rules for this contest, I had to establish some kind of definition about what fit in each of the categories.  It would help if I let you know what those are:

_Casting – Any and all pens where any amount of casting of some type of polymer compound is used in the making of the pen, including color or mixed color casts, clear casts, items or materials inside or mixed in with the casting material, and hybrid casts where the casting material is only a part of the material the pen is made from.

Segmenting – Any and all pens where any amount of segmenting of any kind is used in producing the blank, including all segmenting, laminating, stacked, layering, inlays, mixed-media glue-ups, and incorporating any materials.

Kitless – Any and all pens produced from any material that includes a minimal amount of kit parts.  When closed, the only visible kit part allowed is a clip, but may or may not be included.  Any other kit parts may be used as long as they are not visible when the pen is closed.

Open Class – Any and all pens produced from any material.  Pens can be any shape, style, size, weight or produced by any means or method of work, but must be made by the individual submitting the pen, and should be able to write.  Any kit or no kit may be used.  Any material may be used.  Any method of production may be used._

I think I will require, for the casting and the segmenting, that the work be done by the pen maker who is entering the pen.  The reason I asked is because there are some people who do a great job of casting, but may not be the best penturners, as well as great penturners who may not be very good at casting.  Same with segmenting.

I am at a loss on what to require for the kitless pens.  We may need to allow a refill and transmission for ball pens, and a nib/feed assembly for fountain pens.  But we can restrict it to only these things and nothing else.  We want to push the envelope on this contest, given that, how much or how little for the kitless category?

I believe the Open category should truly be open.  Pretty much anything goes.  I picture this category for those pens that don't necessarily fit anywhere else.  Although a kit pen could win this if it is good enough.

As for the question about requiring them to be a member to join the contest, it is an IAP contest, and it doesn't cost anything to join the IAP.

We have been discussing charging an entry fee for this contest.  If we did, the money would be used for prizes.  What do you think?

Scott.


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## MartinPens (May 25, 2011)

I think I'm going to agree with Monty and go back on what I said about kitless. I don't make kitless pens yet, and I think if it is called kitless then that should be distinguished from closed end pens with hidden parts. Just my two cents.

Martin

Sent from my iPad using Forum Runner


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## soligen (May 25, 2011)

I'm on board with everyone except the kitless.  Given the other categories, I think the kitless category should be truely kitless with the only exception being the nib/feed/feed holder for FP, the refill for RB, refill & tranmisson for a  BP.

For me the clip is the hardest part of going kitless, so I just dont think it's right to judge together pens with kit clips to those with clips made by the pen maker.


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## skiprat (May 25, 2011)

I also think Joe hit the nail on the head. 

This sounds like a lot of fun and Scott, I really hope you host it as I think it will do IAP a lot of good right now.:wink:

Will entrants be allowed to enter more than one category with the same pen? 

Say for instance that I have a pretty cool home cast and want to put it on a kitless pen, will I be able to enter both? 

This really sounds like a lot of fun and I'm really looking forward to participating. :biggrin:


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## Phunky_2003 (May 25, 2011)

I was about to ask the same question as Steve.  Can we enter same pen in multiple categories?


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## skiprat (May 25, 2011)

Scott said:


> We have been discussing charging an entry fee for this contest. If we did, the money would be used for prizes. What do you think?
> 
> Scott.


 
I think this would be great idea. A nominal amount for the 'standard' class and perhaps a little more for the truely kitless open class? 
Although I would be happy to pay between $50 - $100 to enter a serious kitless contest. 
Prizes to suit. 
I assume that if the money raised would be used for *purchasing* prizes then this contest wouldn't be riddled with ads? 
I also think that if we pay an admission charge then no mention of where the kit or the blank was bought would be good. And as with other similar contests, the pen should never have been seen or discussed on another site before.


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## PR_Princess (May 25, 2011)

Phunky_2003 said:


> I was about to ask the same question as Steve.  Can we enter same pen in multiple categories?



Then potentially one pen could win all four categories???


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## bitshird (May 25, 2011)

I agree with every one on page one!!


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## Phunky_2003 (May 25, 2011)

PR_Princess said:


> Phunky_2003 said:
> 
> 
> > I was about to ask the same question as Steve.  Can we enter same pen in multiple categories?
> ...



Well I wasn't thinking one pen could cover all 4 categories.  But if the same pen is entered in the casting category then can it be enter in the open category or kit less category?

I haven't enter too many pen contests, but have in scrolling.  I have had the same piece win advanced, overall and best of show.  

Something that may need to be addressed for the rules....


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## philb (May 25, 2011)

Joes sounds pretty good!!

Definately in for the segmenting, and always fancy being a caster!!


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## BRobbins629 (May 25, 2011)

Scott said:


> We have been discussing charging an entry fee for this contest.  If we did, the money would be used for prizes.  What do you think?
> 
> Scott.


My vote is for no prizes other than the glory of being published in the magazine. Poll time?


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## mredburn (May 25, 2011)

There is alot to be said for charging to enter the contest. It will get serious real quick. You have all sorts of options . YOu could have both paid entries into some of the contests with serious prizes/cash awards and you could have an open to everyone contest that just got you puglished as the winner and a ribbon or small plaque to hang on the wall.   It doesnt matter to me which way it goes. its al good.


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## skiprat (May 25, 2011)

PR_Princess said:


> Phunky_2003 said:
> 
> 
> > I was about to ask the same question as Steve. Can we enter same pen in multiple categories?
> ...


 
Yes, if it entered all four categories, then 'potentially' it could win all four categories. But if it only entered 'multiple' catergories, ie 1, 2, or 3, then of course it couldn't win all four categories:tongue:

But then it would have to be one helluva pen !!!:biggrin:


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## alphageek (May 25, 2011)

Ok.. Scott - here is some of my thoughts:

1) Make sure you rules are solid..  Misinterpretation of the rules could cause some headaches.  (not saying their not, just saying be sure)
2) Paying for entry raises new issues:
    A) Chicken and egg problem with prizes (How much do you raise, and what prizes are offered?   What happens if the prizes are over the raised $$?, etc)
    B) Paying for entry raises the stakes in some minds
3) Who is judging?   There very well can be bias there (one small example, look at the last contest - how many were slimlines and there is alot of anti-slimline these days... Even with Russ Fairfield, many don't look at them in the same way)
4) How is submission going to work?  Will it be a blind submission?  IE will the judges know who submitted each pen?

Just some things to thing about!


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## IPD_Mr (May 25, 2011)

There are some on here that would not pay to enter a pen as they are VERY modest about their work, when in fact it is outstanding.  Scott if you are going to run with this send me a PM.  Linda and I would be glad to donate some decent prizes.


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## ldb2000 (May 25, 2011)

If there's an entry fee then I'm out . I've been un/under employed for over a year now and just couldn't afford it and I'm sure that in this economy I'm not alone .


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## penhead (May 25, 2011)

- casting should be done by the contest entrant

- segmenting should be done by the contest entrant


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## Brooks803 (May 25, 2011)

I agree with Joe so there isn't much for me to add except this....when and where do I sign up????

I've got a couple blanks that have been waiting for something like this!


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## MarkHix (May 25, 2011)

I am on board w/ most of the rest of you on casting and segmenting, it needs to be entered by the creater.  

Kitless is a little harder.  There are some talented pen makers on here.  I think if you limit the "kit" parts to the transmission and fp feed it would be as close as you could reasonably expect for a kitless pen.  

Are you limited to 4 categories?  What about a modified category to cover those that have some kit parts but could not compete in the open category or kitless category.  Maybe not...just thinking on my keyboard.


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## Displaced Canadian (May 25, 2011)

I think a pen can be kitless even if you use a factory clip and/or nib. Not thrilled about the idea of an entry fee perhaps if it was just a small one. There is the unemployed, the young and the fixed income to think about. To me a contest like this would be more about the glory than the prize. Your work in a magazine is pretty heady stuff.


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## lorbay (May 25, 2011)

turbowagon said:


> My thoughts:
> 
> - casting should be done by the contest entrant
> 
> ...


 I will go with what Joe said too.

Lin.


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## azamiryou (May 25, 2011)

- casting done by entrant
- segmenting done by entrant
- "kitless" should mean no identifiable kit parts visible when the pen is in normal use (closed or open). If you can tell it's a slimline clip or cigar CB or Jr. Gent II section, it's not kitless.
- open means anything goes

I think it's a bit backwards to have "open" and "kitless"; it would make more sense to me to have "open" and "kit". In most contests, more basic categories are restricted to keep advanced contestants from spoiling the novices' fun, while more advanced categories are open so a novice can jump in if they want. Also, the definition of "kit" can be much simpler and less controversial than the definition of "kitless".


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## rherrell (May 26, 2011)

I think kitless should mean kitless so I think the refill should be the ONLY part that isn't made by the pencrafter.:wink:


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## TellicoTurning (May 26, 2011)

turbowagon said:


> My thoughts:
> 
> - casting should be done by the contest entrant
> 
> ...



This will eliminate a number of contestants...
example, I don't cast nor do I do segmented blanks... I generally buy what I need and just do the turning... 
I haven't done much in the kitless category either, but that is more just a matter of never having tried it...


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## penmaker1967 (May 26, 2011)

i agree with the posts myself on page 1


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## Scott (May 26, 2011)

Some good points, and some even better questions!

The entry fee we were thinking about was $20 per entry.

We've also decided that no one pen can be entered in more than one category, but that each individual could enter up to three separate pens, which may be in separate categories or the same category.

On the kitless I am leaning towards allowing nib/feed/section on fountain pens, section on rollerballs, and transmission on ball pens.  I see "kits" as being an assemblage of parts.  Less than the whole assemblage is not a "kit".  So one or two parts from a kit could still be kitless.  With this assumption, what parts of a pen could an innovative penmaker still be expected to seek out and use without destroying the ideal of being totally made by the penmaker without the use of a kit?  

If you look at fountain pens, even commercial pen companies do not make their own nibs.  And often they do not make their own feeds.  The section mates precisely with the feed and nib, so I think of them as one assembly.  For a rollerball, it is the most likely style to not need any kit parts, but to be fair I'd be willing to allow a section.  As for ballpoint pens, they are reasonably expected to advance and retract the refill, but I don't think anyone would expect such a pen to not have a manufactured transmission.

And what about brass tubes?  They are part of the kits.  Do we allow brass tubes?  Like I say, my biggest quandary is in the definition of what constitutes "kitless".

Thanks!

Scott.


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## ed4copies (May 26, 2011)

Regarding brass tubes, I have a complete collection of K&S brass tubing, by 64ths up to 3/4"--so "kit" brass would be indistinguishable from "commercial" brass.  I'd say if there is no way to tell the difference, you'd best allow all brass.


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## Scott (May 26, 2011)

What do you think of this definition for Kitless:

Kitless – Any and all pens produced from any material, which are not produced with the benefit of a pen kit.  For purposes of this contest, the following parts may be obtained and not made by the penmaker: for fountain pens, the nib/feed/section; for rollerballs, the section; and for ball pens, the transmission.  No kit clips are allowed.  Other kit parts may be used if they are substantially altered by the penmaker before use, or are used for other than the intended “kit” use, which allows them to be considered as “raw material” rather than a kit part.  While the pre-cut brass tubes included in kits may not be used, bits and pieces of brass tubes, sourced from kits or independently, may be used.

Scott.


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## BRobbins629 (May 26, 2011)

What about non kit clips?  Why not just say that if a clip is used, the penmaker must make and not purchase it.

Still against the entry fee.  I put it in the same categry as a membership fee to IAP.  Its not that I can't afford it, but it has the potential to limit entries and create hard feelings. If you want to collect donations for prizes which I still feel are unnecessary, I would be happy to contribute.


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## Dalecamino (May 26, 2011)

Guess I'd better figure out how to make a clip:redface:


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## IPD_Mr (May 26, 2011)

BRobbins629 said:


> it has the potential to limit entries and create hard feelings.


 

Exactly.


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## hewunch (May 26, 2011)

BRobbins629 said:


> What about non kit clips?  Why not just say that if a clip is used, the penmaker must make and not purchase it.



I hear what you are saying about the clip Bruce. I think kit clips should be allowed, but, I think that clips made by the penmaker would set those pens above the rest. If you know what I mean.


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## BRobbins629 (May 26, 2011)

hewunch said:


> BRobbins629 said:
> 
> 
> > What about non kit clips? Why not just say that if a clip is used, the penmaker must make and not purchase it.
> ...


 
I could go either way - just wanted to be sure that if manufactured clips are allowed, it should clear whether ones salvaged from kits, ones purchased separately, or both are allowed or not.  It was unclear from Scott's first description.


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## Fibonacci (May 26, 2011)

As a new turner who is finally getting to the point of feeling competant, I am against an entry fee for a couple reasons:

1.  I generally work on pens that cost under $5.  A $20 entry fee is 4+ kits.  I know several other people (not a huge number) that are in similar boats.  In my case, I work with inexpensive parts because I am still fairly early in my career and I have a toddler to pay for.

2.  I have several ideas for upcoming pens that I would like to make for a competition.  I know that as a new turner I have no chance of actually winning, but it would be fun to participate.  An entry fee would cause me to dismiss the competition outright as an cost with no benefit.

3.  It sounds like this is in conjuction with the magazine.  They are selling the magazine, as well as ad space in it.  Paying for a competition that they will use to sell more copies seems backward to me.

In my experience, an entry fee is generally use to limit entries to "serious" competitors.  If your goal is to get a limited number of the highest quality entries possible, then it is probably a good idea.  If your goal is to have a more fun competition with a lot of entries, then eliminating the entry fee will widen the available pool of entrants.

--------------------

On the subject of your original questions:

1.  The cast category should require entrants to cast thier own blanks.  This will highlight the people that make the effort to make their own blanks and turn them.  A purchased cast blank (or parts of it) can be used in any of the other categories, so this should be reserved for people who do the whole thing themselves.

2.  The segmenting category should require people to do thier own segmenting for the same reasons above.  I would let people use pieces of a purchased blank for segmenting because the focus is then on the segmenting, not the casting.

3.  There is a LOT of baggage that goes along with the term kitless.  Perhaps it would be better to have this be a closed end category.  There are very few (if any) closed end kits, and virtually every pen that is called "kitless" is closed end.  That dramatically reduces the number of opportunities for arguments and bad feelings.  Like Ed said, tubes is tubes.  I can get a tube in any size I want, and saying I can cut a piece of tubing to the exact length of a slimline kit, but not use one from the kit seems arbitrary and silly.  This also sidesteps the issue of clips and where they can be sourced.

4. I would leave the open class as just plain open.  No rules are necessary beyond it must be functional as a pen.  Limit entries to a single category and someone with a super kitless can decide where they want to compete.

I would also allow for a best overall (or something like that) that is independant of categories.

It would be interesting to know what the pens will be judged on.  Is it artistic quality?  Aesthetic appeal?  Fit/Finish?  Creativity?  Something different?  Each of those asks for a different kind of design.


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## mredburn (May 26, 2011)

Scott, I agree with Ed on the issue of brass tubes. I would simply put it as  "Brass tubes in any form  may or may not be used in the making of the pen but will not considered a  kit part."  Your statement allows me to set aside the tubes from one kit and open up another kit and use those tubes. Several different kits use the same size tubes. How would you enforce this? 

On paying entry fees. ITs possible to have a compittion that has several open catagories that dont require an entry fee. THey recieve Kudo's in the magazine, a man on a stick (trophy) with their name on it for bragging rights and maybe  coupon to Mcdonalds Then there is the prize money compititions. Paid entry fee, paid winners. SIlver plated giant belt buckle, picture in the magazine with the beautiful young ladies of pen turning, Beer sponserships. etc.    

Best of luck I will support it/you any way I can. 

Mike


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## mrrichieboy (May 26, 2011)

Agree with Joe also.---Rich


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## Displaced Canadian (May 26, 2011)

I'm not a kitless penmaker, but when I think kitless I think no tubes.


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## ldb2000 (May 26, 2011)

You can't really make a kitless ballpoint without the brass tubes or at least parts of the tubes . Fountain pens aren't the only kind of kitless pens .


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## jeff (May 26, 2011)

Although it has not been mentioned here yet, we're discussing the concept of sending the pen for judging, eliminating the issue of poor photography. You'd be responsible for shipping the pen, and part of the entry fee would get it back to you. That would also allow the magazine to professionally photograph the winning pens.

So, I'm guessing that given the opposition to an entry fee, the idea of "live" judging isn't going to fly. So, we're going to need a rule for photography too, since that's a component in the success or failure of every entry. Something like "you must photograph the pen yourself, with your personally owned camera." Sound reasonable?

I have to admit that I am the one who raised the idea of an entry fee. Many other woodworking & turning sites have entry fees from $15 to $50, and they use it to generate a nice prize pool and pay expenses. I was hoping we could make this a contest where the prizes were significant. I am surprised that idea didn't work here, but it doesn't matter either way.

I figured that $20 was reasonable given that just getting into pen making requires some investment in equipment, tools, etc. Sure there are some folks who got all their stuff for free/cheap, but that's not the norm.

I'm fine with the idea of dropping the entry fee, as well as eliminating in-person judging. Before we do that, maybe we could get a few people to agree to sponsor those who truly can't afford it. Of course if you're opposed on principle to the idea of any entry fee, well that's your prerogative. 

We need a poll!
1 - I agree to a $20 fee
2 - The $20 fee is too high, but I'll pay something
3 - I am opposed on principle to any fee
4 - I'd pay a $20 fee, but I can't afford it and I'd accept a sponsor.


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## mredburn (May 26, 2011)

You might begin  like you do in  the "bash" pick the finalists by submitted photos, and then the finalists,  have to forward their pen to the judges. At some point you will have to say here are the rules. Whos going to play?


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## Texatdurango (May 26, 2011)

Just curious........ has any thought been given to restricting the type of equipment used in making a pen?  I wouldn't mind trying my hand in the open class with a few ideas floating around in my head but wouldn't realistically expect to compete with a pen made on a $10,000 CNC machine where most of the "skill" in making the pen is in the computer programming!  Not knocking those with the equipment, just looking for a semi-level playing field.


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## Hubert H (May 26, 2011)

Add me to list of agree-ers.


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## Displaced Canadian (May 27, 2011)

I think live judging is a good idea because it eliminates the photography element. How often has somebody said the pen looks better in person. Fit and finish is better judged in person. I would be willing to pay an entry fee of $20 to cover expenses.


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## Scott (May 27, 2011)

Hi Everybody!

I have been corresponding with Joe Herrman over at Woodturning Design Magazine, and he has looked at this thread.  We have some tentative names for judges, but only one has been contacted, and he has agreed.  Woodturning Design Magazine will publish pictures of the winning pens in each category.  The top winner in each category will get a one-year subscription to the magazine.  And we will choose a "best-of-show" pen, and that winner will be offered to write a paid article on how they made their pen!  That is pretty good co-sponsoring from Woodturning Design Magazine!

I hold a little different view than Jeff.  I guess it's my years of working in a welfare office, but I don't worry as much about making you all happy.  If there is a problem with paying the entry fee, then somebody will sponsor the fee for you.  I would be happy to pay the entry fee for Butch if he'd be willing to accept.  I might even be able to scrape up an extra $20 for somebody else as well!

If it's a problem with sending in the pens to be judged, I know that is a pain, but believe me it is more of a pain for the contest organizer (me) and the judges, who have to care for all these pens and send them along.  But this is a major contest, and the only proper way to judge this contest is to get the pens in the hands of the judges.  This also allows the magazine to take some awesome pictures of the pens to be published in the magazine!  I do think it's important to send in the pens.

As for the kitless definition, I am still working on that definition.  I would be willing to allow brass tubes because for the most part they are structural and not visible.  As for kit clips, I do not think that kit clips should be allowed, but using a clip that was once a part of a kit, or for that matter, part of another pen, as long as it is substantially modified in appearance, I would be OK with that.

Also, I really do think that Open Class should mean "Open"!  I wanted at least one category where there are essentially no limits.  Make the craziest dang pen you ever dreamed of, and it can fit in here.  This is the category where we can really show where penmaking has gone.  Is there a chance that somebody using CNC can blow this category away, and maybe the Best-of-Show as well?  Yes!  But there is also a chance that a perfectly beautiful kit pen will win instead!  Because when we get right down to it, it's not the tool that makes the difference, it's the person using the tool!

As always, please let me know your thoughts.

Scott.


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## ed4copies (May 27, 2011)

Texatdurango said:


> Just curious........ has any thought been given to restricting the type of equipment used in making a pen?  I wouldn't mind trying my hand in the open class with a few ideas floating around in my head but wouldn't realistically expect to compete with a pen made on a $10,000 CNC machine where most of the "skill" in making the pen is in the computer programming!  Not knocking those with the equipment, just looking for a semi-level playing field.




This made me think, last night.

The IAP will be running this in conjunction with WOODTURNING Design magazine.  The "pen-making" hobby started and many have thrived with woodturning tools.  Should the contest be limited to pens made with WOODTURNING tools and lathes??  Taps and dies are metalworking tools, predominately.  Of course metal lathes are for metalworking.  Maybe we should reconsider WHAT is inkeeping with the audience that READS our sponsor's magazine???

Had not occurred to me, until George's comments, but there is some logic to limiting the tools, isn't there??


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## BRobbins629 (May 27, 2011)

ed4copies;1227654 
 
This made me think said:
			
		

> With that logic - all pens would have to be made from wood.
> 
> Restricting tools is rediculous.  If you want that type of contest, hand everyone the same materials, give them all the same tools, send them off and have them come back with a pen.  Some of the nicest pens are made with the simplest of tools and low cost materials.  Think of Toni's hand made polymer clay pens, or some of Eagle's blanks.  Design and creativity will always beat tools - just look at the recent bash winners.


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## BRobbins629 (May 27, 2011)

jeff said:


> Although it has not been mentioned here yet, we're discussing the concept of sending the pen for judging, eliminating the issue of poor photography. You'd be responsible for shipping the pen, and part of the entry fee would get it back to you. That would also allow the magazine to professionally photograph the winning pens.
> 
> So, I'm guessing that given the opposition to an entry fee, the idea of "live" judging isn't going to fly. So, we're going to need a rule for photography too, since that's a component in the success or failure of every entry. Something like "you must photograph the pen yourself, with your personally owned camera." Sound reasonable?
> 
> ...


I'm against the entry fee, but I do like live judging and having the magazine photo the winners.  With that in mind, I would be happy to donate to cover some of the shippoing costs, etc.


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## skiprat (May 27, 2011)

I was laughing so hard at one of the posts,  I forgot if you mentioned this already? Will EVERY entry have to be sent in for judging or just the top bunch selected from photos shown here?
Is this an International contest and will our cool sponsor be prepared to post a mag subscription to say South Africa, UK, Oz, Germany etc etc if one of them is lucky enough to win either of the groups?
Will entrants have the opportunity to perhaps pay a little more to make sure their entries get insured/trackable return postage?

Thanks


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## TerryDowning (May 27, 2011)

Based on what I have read so far I think four categories is too few.
There are a lot of variables here. I think the rues need to be very specific for each category so there is no room for interpretation. Determine who the judges will be and have them assign the final judging criteria for each category.

Example.  If you are judging the castings should the fit and finish of the final product be evaluated? or are you more interested in the material, obvious defects, bubbles, etc.

Kitless is too vague of a name of a category and we as the pen turning community can't even come to a majority agreement on what is or is not kitless. If you are going to have a kitless category the rules need to be clearly defined BY THE JUDGES as they are the ones who are making the determinations.

I like the idea of an Open category but again, what is and is not allowed is a matter for the judges to decide and advise ahead of the competition.

Ultimately, if you don't like or agree with the judging criteria for each category, then don't enter.

Perhaps, the categories should be 
Casting - where the quality of the casting is evaluated and an unturned sample of the blank must be turned in as well. Casting turned and finished but unassembled to a pen?

Segmenting - where the quality and difficulty of the segmenting is evaluated. Not necessarily the fit and finish of the pen. Segments turned and and ready for finishing but NOT finished and not assembled to a pen? This way the segmenting is being judged and not the pen.

Kit Pens with different divisions to help level the playing field some what
    twist type ball point kits (Generally the least expensive and most common)
    click pens
    pencils
    roller ball
    fountain

Open - where pretty much anything goes. Just turn in a pen to be evaluated on creativity, fit finish and general execution of a pen concept. Kitless, modified kit, customizations, whatever.

Rules that can not be enforced or adjudicated equitably should not be issued.  Example.  You must take your own photos.  What if I'm a professional photographer? Or 
Twist mechanisms and brass tubes that you get from a kit can not be used.  How on earth can you enforce that? 

You might as well say "don't scratch your ear when making the pen". or "Do not do any work on this pen on a Tuesday". How will you know??

Just my thoughts on the subject.


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## Curly (May 27, 2011)

I was wondering if a collaboration of two or more artists would be allowed to enter a pen? 

An example might be. 
I make the nib, centre band and clip from Green Kryptonite. 
A friend engraves those parts with antique Egyptian engraving tools with stylized Hieroglyphics. 
Lastly my girlfriend, Marla, makes a casting using Cuttlefish tentacles (sucker side out :wink: ), turns, polishes and assembles the pen. 

The example is far fetched but a slightly less ambitious effort could produce a remarkable pen entry. Using components and materials purchased from small or large suppliers is close to the same thing.

Pete


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## ldb2000 (May 27, 2011)

This will be an exciting contest for all .... if the rules can be hammered out . If the entry fee is only $20 then I think I could scrape together enough pennies to get in on the fun . Some of the contest entry fees I have seen were $50 or more and that just isn't doable .

*Casting* ; I agree that the casting should be done by the entrant but you have to understand that this will leave out a number of the members that for whatever reason don't do casting thus limiting the number of entries you will get . 

*Segmenting* : See casting 

*Kitless* ; Definition , I have been shouted down on this subject too many times to really care anymore . We NEED a definition of the word so there will be no arguments in this or any other contests that may be held in the future . I will be happy to go along with anything you come up with . This category should be open to ALL members that have a lathe and the imagination to use it . With that said this is a few observations from this thread . 

Tubes ; Brass kit tubes are required for ballpoint kitless pens and for strength in even some rollerball and fountain pens . I use a combination of Kit tubes , brass tubing from the local hobby shop and aluminum tubing as the core of most of my kitless work . Brass tubes are not what makes a kit pen , a kit pen .

Nibs/feeds and transmissions ; These components are required for ANY pen and are beyond the ability of almost all of the membership to manufacture themselves . 

Clips ; This one is a real sticking point for many here . There are only a handful of members here that have the equipment and ability to create their own clips . To even the playing field I would suggest that clips be limited to one style clip that is readily available and is adaptable to many different styles of pens . Slimline or Cigar clips are the obvious choices for this purpose . I would suggest that Cigar clips are the most versatile clips for a contest of this type . I know this will not be popular with some here but I think for the greatest participation it would be the most fair .

*Open* ; This is the category that will give the top few a chance to really show off their abilities . There should be no rules here other then the pen should write and be refillable when done . No limit to the equipment or materials used .


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## tjseagrove (May 27, 2011)

Is there a beginners class?


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## BRobbins629 (May 27, 2011)

tjseagrove said:


> Is there a beginners class?


In arguing or penmaking?


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## DurocShark (May 27, 2011)

We need a "Kitted" class. Full kits, including ALL components.

To me this serves two purposes:

1. It allows those who do not segment, do not cast, and do not do kitless to still participate.
2. It would be more likely to please the magazine's advertisers, encouraging the magazine to continue to support such events.

I'm on the fence with the entry fee. Has the magazine spoken to its advertisers about their contributing prizes?


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## ed4copies (May 27, 2011)

As an advertiser in Woodturning Design, we pay handsomely for the ad---the content is under the auspices of the magazine---THEY pay for content to encourage US to pay for the readers they can reach.

I would be very surprised if they invited us to give prizes, along with paying for the ad---but we'll see.


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## hunter-27 (May 27, 2011)

Texatdurango said:


> Just curious........ has any thought been given to restricting the type of equipment used in making a pen?  I wouldn't mind trying my hand in the open class with a few ideas floating around in my head but wouldn't realistically expect to compete with a pen made on a $10,000 CNC machine where most of the "skill" in making the pen is in the computer programming!  Not knocking those with the equipment, just looking for a semi-level playing field.


Well put, ty for putting ito words what I could not.


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## skiprat (May 27, 2011)

LOL, well after that  revelation, I guess it's really pointless me entering anymore. :wink:
LOL, may the best advert, oops I mean best entry win.


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## Scott (May 27, 2011)

BRobbins629 said:


> tjseagrove said:
> 
> 
> > Is there a beginners class?
> ...



LOL!  Well, I'm not a beginner in either sense of the word.  Let me clarify a few things.

As far as leveling the playing field, I'm not particularly concerned with that.  We all should realize by now that this is a contest for accomplished penmakers.  Sorry all you novice and intermediate turners!  This is where the experts get to show off.  Will this limit the number of entrants?  Yes, and again I'm sorry.  Maybe we'll also run a novice and intermediate contest at the same time, but not with Woodturning Design Magazine.

Skippy has a good point about the "internationality" of this contest.  As far as mailing the pens back and forth, there should be no difference other than your initial cost to mail the pen in to enter it.  As far as the applicability of having a magazine subscription as a prize if someone outside of the United States wins it - we'll work something out.  The cash prize (oops, I let it out of the bag) will travel just fine across international borders.

To Terry, we will establish the judging criteria.  The judges we will be using will be fine with that.  This is a contest about making pens.  Yes, the casting is important in the casting division, but you can't make a sloppy pen and hope to win any aspect of this competition.

I am getting close to deciding on the definition for "kitless", but you may have to wait to hear until after the holiday weekend, as I'm just getting ready to go to our cabin, and there's no Internet there.  I think tubes will be allowed, but I'm still up in the air about clips.  So if you want to sway how this decision goes, chime in.  And don't worry Terry, my rules will be quite clear and easy to comply with!

There are a number of categories that are being left out of this competition.  There is no reason why they might not be considered for future contests of this sort.  All of what we do here is a learning process.  The next contest will be better due to what we learn here.  We are not doing collaborations in this contest.  Maybe in the future, but for this one it is all one-person pens.

Sorry, but Holiday calls!  

Scott.


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## tjseagrove (May 27, 2011)

tjseagrove said:
			
		

> Is there a beginners class?





			
				BRobbins629 said:
			
		

> In arguing or penmaking?



Penmaking...the arguing category has plenty of entries and I am sure there are a few more to come.


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## Displaced Canadian (May 27, 2011)

I want to see Pete's Green kryptonite, Egyptian hieroglyphic, cuttlefish pen. :biggrin:


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## Curly (May 27, 2011)

Displaced Canadian said:


> I want to see Pete's Green kryptonite, Egyptian hieroglyphic, cuttlefish pen. :biggrin:



Can't this time since collaborating isn't going to be allowed. There is always next time.:wink:

Pete


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