# sand between coats of WTF?



## conandy (Apr 6, 2016)

Sorry if this has been addressed elsewhere, but WTF (wood turners finish) is mentioned so often that it is hard to sort through all the threads. 

I have gotten fairly good at my own CA finishing process, but I want to put out some pens that have a more satiny, close to the wood, tactile feel without the thick glass-like coating of CA.  I have some WTF and like it, but I am a touch confused by some of the posts here. 

I read that a lot of you apply several (6-9) coats of WTF, waiting a minute or two between coats.  What no one seems to ever mention is whether they are sanding between coats.  WTF instructions and on video on General Finishes website imply it needs to be sanded between coats.  That is typical of most water-based top coats in order to get the coats to bond to each other. 

SO: do you all sand between coats, or just keep adding coats every minute or two until you get the build you want?  Has anyone noticed any longevity or other issues with doing it one way vs the other? 

Thanks!


----------



## ed4copies (Apr 6, 2016)

You can apply 7+ coats without sanding--that is about when you start to see a shine.

Each coat levels the coat before, so sanding would be mostly redundant.

Wait a day or so, until it cures, THEN sand, then if you want to build a deeper coat, do the same thing--the cured coats will not "self-level" with the next coats.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=E1Kflo93eCM
shows how I was taught, by the rep from WTF


----------



## conandy (Apr 6, 2016)

ed4copies said:


> You can apply 7+ coats without sanding--that is about when you start to see a shine.
> 
> Each coat levels the coat before, so sanding would be mostly redundant.
> 
> ...



Thanks, Ed!   Great video.  That helps a bunch.  

So, essentially as soon as previous coat is dry to touch, a new coat can go on, without sanding.  I can see how the successive coats will bond with previous as long as you get them on before the previous coat "cures" fully. 

I have been making this process take much longer than necessary.


----------



## jttheclockman (Apr 6, 2016)

I know you said most water based top coats needed to be sanded between coats but that is not true. Most top coats can be applied without sanding if the finish is not cured. Water based lacquers can be top coated very easily.


----------



## budnder (Apr 6, 2016)

I'll be curious to see how it goes for you - please post back your experience. I did my first WTF finish recently ( Closed End Sedona WTF Finish ) and didn't think much of it during application, but the end result really grew on me. My process was (after studying Ed's excellent video):

Applied a "seal" coat of BLO, wiped off excess and waited a couple of minutes
Nine coats applied with sponge, wait 1 minute between coats. No sanding.
Let dry overnight.
No sanding - just buffing with Tripoli, White Diamond, and then Carnuba

I'm anxious to try it again - the next time I do a natural wood pen.

I did notice a spot or two where there seemed to be some weird discoloration in the wood from the WTF. It mostly went away when it cured. I think I saw someone else mention this when talking about WTF also.


----------



## conandy (Apr 7, 2016)

jttheclockman said:


> I know you said most water based top coats needed to be sanded between coats but that is not true. Most top coats can be applied without sanding if the finish is not cured. Water based lacquers can be top coated very easily.



Although I agree in principal, JT, every single water based topcoat I have used over the years has always explicitly stated in the instructions to sand between coats.  Most of those were poly-acrylic blends of some sort for brushing, and not laquers.  I don't spray, so don't generally use laquers, water based or otherwise. 

I checked GF Enduro Water Base Laquer, which says _*do*_ sand between.  So does the Unduro-Var.  And the Wood Turner's Finish.  And Minwax Polycrylic.  These happen to be most of the ones I have used.  

Emtech EM6000 from Target Coatings says sanding between is not necessary.  Hydrocote Resisthane says sanding is not necessary.  Varathane Interior Water-base says no-sanding necessary.  These happen to be ones I have not used, ironically. 

I wish there was better information on why some products require sanding between, and others don't.  And why some of those instructions are OK to ignore, apparently.


----------



## jttheclockman (Apr 7, 2016)

The target Coating product is a water based lacquer and that is the one I use. 
You can say that with oil based products also. 
As far as why I can tell you it all has to do with the makeup of the ingredients such as the driers used.  

I suggest read and follow instructions on the can.


----------



## conandy (Apr 7, 2016)

jttheclockman said:


> The target Coating product is a water based lacquer and that is the one I use.
> You can say that with oil based products also.
> As far as why I can tell you it all has to do with the makeup of the ingredients such as the driers used.
> 
> I suggest read and follow instructions on the can.



For my next larger piece of furniture I may have to get one of the products that doesn't require sanding between coats, now that I know they exist.  That is the part of finishing that I HATE.  One reason I have gone to shellac for a lot of stuff.


----------



## jttheclockman (Apr 7, 2016)

conandy said:


> jttheclockman said:
> 
> 
> > The target Coating product is a water based lacquer and that is the one I use.
> ...



Finishing is a part of woodworking that needs to be understood. We get away with the small pieces of wood we turn for pens, but if talking furniture or even clocks that I do you do need some knowledge. The finish can make or break a project as well as in a pen too. When we all talk fit and finish as a precursor to one's quality of work is truely meaningful. Can make a huge difference in sales.


----------



## conandy (Apr 12, 2016)

Well, my results in the last couple days have been....frustrating.  The feedback here to put on a coat every minute or so just seems not to work for me if the previous coat is supposed to be at least dry to touch before re-coating.  First coat dries in a minute.  Second coat in a couple minutes.  But 3rd coat on takes over 5 minutes to become dry to touch.  That makes getting 6 or more coats on take forever.  And I live in Denver and work in a heated shop, so humidity is super low and temp is 65 to 68F. 

Should I not be waiting for it to be dry between coats?  

Also: 6 coats is obviously not enough.  Even sanding with 1800 or 2400 MM and working up from there (after over-night curing), I am sanding through to bare wood by the time I get to 3200 MM.


----------



## jttheclockman (Apr 12, 2016)

https://generalfinishes.com/retail-...ding-sealers/wood-turners-finish#.Vw0nQ_krLyM  Check out the videos and reviews. may help.

I am sure you will find info in this older thread about the same thing.

www.penturners.org/forum/f28/woodturners-finish-94816/


----------



## TonyL (Apr 12, 2016)

I have used WTF several times, and the video says one thing and the can/directions state something else. The can recommends a much longer dry time.  I did not sand in between coats...right or wrong. I did apply about 30. I wasn't as please as I am with CA.


----------



## conandy (Apr 12, 2016)

jttheclockman said:


> https://generalfinishes.com/retail-...ding-sealers/wood-turners-finish#.Vw0nQ_krLyM  Check out the videos and reviews. may help.
> 
> I am sure you will find info in this older thread about the same thing.
> 
> www.penturners.org/forum/f28/woodturners-finish-94816/



Thanks, JT.  Some good info at that first link especially.  

Although I am not giving up on WTF in general, I am starting to doubt it is what I am looking for for pens.  If I want a nice built-up finish, I think I'll stick with CA, since I have that down pretty good.  I can polish that to glass-like, or stop the polishing before it gets that far and call it "satin".  And, quite frankly, it builds so much faster than WTF that it is a ton faster based on my results so far. 

For a more "close to the wood", and less "plastic looking" finish, I think I will experiment with friction polish and wax.  I know from other threads that this probably isn't nearly as durable, but anything that leaves the grain and texture of the wood in-tact is going to be less durable.


----------



## wouldentu2? (Apr 12, 2016)

If you are looking for a less glossy look and feel to CA then do your CA to MM12000 and then start back down the grits until you find a look you like.


----------



## corgicoupe (Apr 12, 2016)

conandy said:


> Well, my results in the last couple days have been....frustrating.  The feedback here to put on a coat every minute or so just seems not to work for me if the previous coat is supposed to be at least dry to touch before re-coating.  First coat dries in a minute.  Second coat in a couple minutes.  But 3rd coat on takes over 5 minutes to become dry to touch.  That makes getting 6 or more coats on take forever.  And I live in Denver and work in a heated shop, so humidity is super low and temp is 65 to 68F.
> 
> Should I not be waiting for it to be dry between coats?
> 
> Also: 6 coats is obviously not enough.  Even sanding with 1800 or 2400 MM and working up from there (after over-night curing), I am sanding through to bare wood by the time I get to 3200 MM.



I turned a pen today in mulberry, and one on Sunday in zebra wood. Both are coarse grained, but after sanding to 400 grit and a brief touch with steel wool, I applied three coats of a shellac/walnut oil finish with only a few minutes dry time between coats. That gave sufficient build and I topped it off with two coats of wax.. I've also used a shellac/tung oil mix.


----------



## Mortalis (Apr 12, 2016)

I've found that OB's shine juice does a really nice job allowing you to seal, shine and gloss to your own likings. Eddie Castellin did a video on the stuff and I use it when I have a wood that is particularly open grained and want to keep it that way.


----------



## corgicoupe (Apr 13, 2016)

For a finish more durable than shellac/oil, you can mix varnish/oil (half/half) and thin to the desired consistency with mineral spirits. I use spar varnish when I finish small boxes. Three or four coats will give build, but the dry time will be longer than with shellac. However, l think the finish could be applied off the lathe rather than friction applied. You could be turning another pen while waiting. In both cases, the oil pent rates and gives color and the shellac and varnish give the build. You can get a satin or glossy finish with either... steel wool and wax, or just wax, respectively.


----------



## jttheclockman (Apr 13, 2016)

corgicoupe said:


> For a finish more durable than shellac/oil, you can mix varnish/oil (half/half) and thin to the desired consistency with mineral spirits. I use spar varnish when I finish small boxes. Three or four coats will give build, but the dry time will be longer than with shellac. However, l think the finish could be applied off the lathe rather than friction applied. You could be turning another pen while waiting. In both cases, the oil pent rates and gives color and the shellac and varnish give the build. You can get a satin or glossy finish with either... steel wool and wax, or just wax, respectively.




That is what Danish oil is. Save the mixing and just use Danish oil. Works great.


----------



## corgicoupe (Apr 13, 2016)

jttheclockman said:


> corgicoupe said:
> 
> 
> > For a finish more durable than shellac/oil, you can mix varnish/oil (half/half) and thin to the desired consistency with mineral spirits. I use spar varnish when I finish small boxes. Three or four coats will give build, but the dry time will be longer than with shellac. However, l think the finish could be applied off the lathe rather than friction applied. You could be turning another pen while waiting. In both cases, the oil pent rates and gives color and the shellac and varnish give the build. You can get a satin or glossy finish with either... steel wool and wax, or just wax, respectively.
> ...



Quite true, but mixing your own allows you to select the ingredients, vary the amount of each to experiment, and is less expensive. I chose this path on the advice of Bob Flexner, who has studied finishing extensively.


----------



## jttheclockman (Apr 13, 2016)

corgicoupe said:


> jttheclockman said:
> 
> 
> > corgicoupe said:
> ...



Very good. He is a very knowledgeable man when it comes to finishing.


----------



## leehljp (Apr 16, 2016)

Here is a link to a couple of pens that I did almost 9 years ago. (I still have one and use it regularly.)

http://www.penturners.org/forum/f28/shine-not-shine-32496/

This was about making a flat or satin or matt finish with CA to give more of a wood look instead of the very shiny CA finish. I built up the finish for a fairly thick finish and after achieving the proper glossy finish, I just went backwards on the micro-mesh to achieve the wanted matt finish. Looks much more "woody".


(There was one part in that thread that has me a little baffled - my stabilizing process. In on part I mention Acrylic as stabilizing and in another part I mention poly/mineral spirits.)


----------



## jttheclockman (Apr 16, 2016)

What I like is reading Russ's remarks and even Cav's


----------



## conandy (Apr 17, 2016)

leehljp said:


> Here is a link to a couple of pens that I did almost 9 years ago. (I still have one and use it regularly.)
> 
> http://www.penturners.org/forum/f28/shine-not-shine-32496/
> 
> ...



Thanks, Lee.  I had found that thread, and am still giving it serious consideration.  Will probably try the "satinizing" of the glossy CA finish in the near future.   CA is just so hard to beat for a good protective coating.


----------

