# Satisfied with your kitless designing?



## Dalecamino (Oct 21, 2012)

I'm not, and don't think I will be any time soon. Not trying to be rude, but am wondering, what reasons some of the members that have taken to making kitless pens have, for not going a few steps farther in designing and, creating a different style? It's been over a year, I see the same cap, barrel, and section. Most of them have clips, and most of them are nice pens. It's always great to me, to see someone go for that OTHER way to make a pen. I just don't understand WHY it stops there? It's not THAT big of a deal to go a little farther with it. I just was looking at Georges Blue/Black pen (which to me is awesome) and, noticed all the comments, and LIKES. It just got me to wondering, why few are making this style of pen? I'd like to hear some answers. BTW, this is not a rant, I'm just curious about this, and hope to have a better understanding. Thanks!:wink:


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## chriselle (Oct 22, 2012)

Chuck, 

  You and I...we build guitars, right?:wink:  The '54 Strat, the '59 Les Paul, the '51 Nocaster (pre Tele).  
  Fender and Gibson unlike us have had the capital for research and innovation for the past 60 years yet almost every guitar in their line-up is a very close reproduction of those original holy grails (except for some of the questionable 70's stuff:wink.  The same can be said for amp design.

I don't know... but there is a built in beauty and attraction to the simplicity of something that just "works" both in function and esthetic.  But, hey I use urushi to finish my pens so I'm not exactly in the "cutting edge" loop.  :biggrin:

The main reasons why I don't push my designs further....well......lack of capital tops the list.


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## Texatdurango (Oct 22, 2012)

As for me, I do try different things, you ought to see my shop with all the half finished ideas strewn about.  I want to keep my addiction/hobby/business small scale so it doesn't turn into a full time effort that would interfere with traveling, fishing and just relaxing.  I have decided to do three or four major pen shows a year to sell what I make because it's fun meeting new friends, visiting old friends and making a few dollars at the same time.  Right now I have four distinctively different pens I make, two smaller pens and two larger pens, all with different levels of trim to hopefully satisfy anyone looking for a nice pen.

That said, I do have ideas for new pens and when things settle down a little I plan on working on some one-of-a-kind creations and spotlighting them on my site.  Don't be surprised if you see me posting some new designs sporting some really snazzy home made clips in the future :wink:


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## skiprat (Oct 22, 2012)

As I don't sell pens, I haven't had to find a formula or style for my kitless pens. I can play around without worrying if my work will sell or not. 
I think the craftsmanship in the majority of the kitless pens shown are great but I sometimes couldn't tell the difference between one persons and anothers. 

Because I think these pens are often so similar, to me it's like a new 'kit' has been created. That in itself defeats the object of 'going kitless' to me. 
There are far more variations of Sierra kits, than there are kitless pens. 

One of the common complaints about kits was the 'cheap plastic threads' but just about all kitless pens have plastic on plastic threads. 

I think that by not using tubes also creates problems. First, it removes the reinforcing 'skeleton' that gives it strength and thus allows the pen to be thinner but still being fairly strong. 
My pet hate is also seeing threads through the material. 

Just my opinion.....:wink:


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## Twissy (Oct 22, 2012)

A good question!
My biggest constraint is time. I spend most of my time making component pens because I'm selling at craft fairs every weekend, and it's a constant battle to keep stock levels sufficiently high and varied.
I get pleasure from every pen I make, but I must confess I get far more pleasure from making kitless pens. The main reason for this is probably that it is more challenging. I do sell these pens, but wouldn't mind if I didn't.
My only "extra" design so far really has been making a few hooded nib pens, which I made because it was a design buzzing around my head that I needed to do! A little like the wooden custom I did recently, Yes it does follow the basic format of most kitless but is still a bit different.
Like George, I have some other ideas that will annoy the hell out of me until I actually try it, and am hoping to have the ideas turned into pens (pun intended) in the post Christmas lull.


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## BRobbins629 (Oct 22, 2012)

Good question Chuck, but I think we hear variations of this often.  For me, most of the the pens I made involve something I haven't tried before.  Sometimes it works and often it doesn't.  Also as I'm not selling any, I only complete 5 kitless pens a year at most and am not under pressure to fill inventory for shows or web sites. Some take a few days, some a few weeks and some I have been tinkering with for 2 years.  What I think you see on this site, is the number of unique designs is proportional to the amount of time it takes to create.  We are all proud of our work, but the ones who can crank out higher volumes and have always more to to show off tend to be the ones with a more common design.  I don't see this as a bad thing, but each of us is in this hobby for a different reason - some just to enjoy making a pen, some to support the hobby and some to make a living.  I doubt that this will ever change.


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## wiset1 (Oct 22, 2012)

You've hit on something here that most of us have thought about at one point or another I'm sure.  I love the look of these "Custom" pens and there's a couple of turners who truly have a polished system that allows for professional looking designs.  Then again, there are those who fumble through it looking to emulate fellow designers while never really hitting the mark regardless of how many pens they turn and post.  Not throwing any punches here, just saying.

There are too many followers in this craft and not enough out of the box thinkers willing to try something new.  Every now and again you'll see someone come up with something new and within the next month you'll have a couple threads showing off the same exact designs and in some instances taking credit instead of giving credit where it's due.  They say its the greatest form of flattery, but it's not always the case! 

I think what's needed is forward thinkers with vision willing to try new materials, designs, and have a healthy dose of curiosity.  It does get old at times I'm sure, but there will always be leaders and followers in anything we do.


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## gwilki (Oct 22, 2012)

Speaking only for myself, I can say that I simply don't have the creative gene required to come up with something different. I don't say that sarcastically or with any kind of false modesty. It's just how it is. I'm a mechanic by nature, not a designer. 
However, I do think that you are being overly broad in your criticism. I see many pens on here that I immediately react to by thinking, "how in the hell did he think of/do that?". Its' true, there are many that are very similar - but look at Honda and Toyota. Some designs just work. And, if the maker is trying to earn a living doing this, or at least recover his costs, he has to do what works/sells.


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## mredburn (Oct 22, 2012)

Original Designs are the hardest part of any thing, anywhere you look, it doesnt matter the field or subject.  A lot of pen turners like to be able to  "take a kit and turn a blank and have a pen" that is what is fun for them, its relaxing.  There will never be an abundance of people that can  whip out original designs.  Just think of how many pen turners on this and/or any other site that you can think of that produce original works.  A dozen? 2 dozen?  Out of 2,000 active members here and around 12000 total there will always be that handful that push the boundaries dragging the rest of us with them.   How many of us can copy One of Skiprat"s pens when he shares the details and how many can compete on his Level of originality and design. A few, Not many.  There have been tremendous advances in kits and even more so blank designs in the last couple of years alone. All brought on in small steps mostly building on or taking from the last new Idea someone came up with.  For some of us the best part is being here when it happens.


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## Andrew_K99 (Oct 22, 2012)

I think for many getting started in kitless they are still going through the learning curve of how to create a nice pen (good threads, right size, right shape, etc.) they are happy with. This will generally emulate pens that they have seen or used.

I say this from experience. I just completed my first 'kitless' pen and love it for what it is (my first) but there are a hundred things I want to change about it. I will evolve based on my first but understand it will take time to get good enough to make my first nice pen (which will most likely be simple in nature).

I also believe that most of the kitless pens we are seeing take styling cues from vintage fountain pens which were quite simple in their appearance. This is for a good reason, they were good looking, functional pens.

In the years to come those that stick with 'kitless' will start getting more and more creative, right now they're trying to figure out the basics.

AK


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## dbledsoe (Oct 22, 2012)

Similar to gwilki, I admitted a long time ago that I have absolutely no artistic ability. I am mechanical by nature and I enjoy trying to figure out how something was done. Sometimes I get more pleasure from making the tooling than I do from making the product. I can't sing, dance, play a musical instrument or paint, but I can fix your car or build you a new shop. If I ever make an original pen it will be because something I was trying to do failed and something new resulted.
Don't depend on me to push the design boundaries - ain't going to happen. But I can make a pen that will satisfy me (well, maybe someday I will make one like that).
That's my goal, anyway. Fortunately, I don't have to make a living at it.


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## Gilrock (Oct 22, 2012)

I started down the path of trying to make "kitless" pens because I thought although it would be an initial startup cost that I would save money by not having to buy a kit....lol.  I had no idea the nib, feed/housing, and converter would cost just as much.

I still have made less than 5 kitless pens so I'm not at the creative idea stage yet but I have a few ideas.  I'm not trying to sell them so if I make a pen similar to yours or anyone else's I don't feel bad.  It's fun.  George gave a lot of details for a #6 pen and I had only been making #5 pens.  So I started following his steps and I found myself deviating from the measurements and in the end I made a couple mandrels for #6 size pens and a die holder for the larger 1.5" die and I feel like I was creative in my own way.


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## Bigj51 (Oct 22, 2012)

I am just beginning on the journey of kitless pens. I have a bunch of designs in my head. If I can figure out out to turn these designs into functional pens then I would be more than happy.


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## Curly (Oct 22, 2012)

Am I satisfied with my designing? Yes.

Am I happy with having to go to work and do all the other things that need attention in life? No! They take away from the play. :wink:

For the most part Chuck I think the designing you are talking about are the embellishments added to a writing instrument to make it personal or unique. Different metals, finishes, body materials, engraving and carvings, logos or monograms, LED backlit nibs, WiFi/Bluetooth abilities and signature shapes. Those are the things the big makers use to try and set themselves apart from their competitors. I'm a long way from that since I haven't even put a clip on a cap yet.  So in many ways I am still in my custom making infancy.

I sometimes come up with unique design ideas. I made an entry for the 2012 Best Of IAP Contest that I hope shows what I mean. Once the judging has been completed I will post it. Will it be something original that others will  emulate? Maybe. :question: Maybe not. :yawn: :sleepy: I will still try and make cutting edge pens like this kit pen, a sawgar, I made early on. :wink:


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## BRobbins629 (Oct 22, 2012)

Curly said:


>


I'm just glad you're not my Pith partner:biggrin:


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## Dalecamino (Oct 22, 2012)

Well! Thank you friends, for your indulgence. I've certainly learned quite a bit from the responses.( As I anticipated. ) I'm thinking now, "To each his/her own". I was looking for reasons, and I got some. You guys are great.


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## bluwolf (Oct 23, 2012)

Curly,

I can't quite put my finger on it...but something just doesn't look very user friendly. Something about the ergonomics of it...I don't know..it looks a little off. But maybe that's just me.

Mike


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## trapper (Oct 23, 2012)

Well I'm with skiprat on this I moved into "kitless" simply because I was bored of assembling kits. In terms of design I tend to like to try new ways of making the wheel, but after many attempts cant quite get a smooth ride!!! I do sell pens off the back of my experiments all too often these end being stock kitpens assembled to customers orders. I tend to market my items as items of jewellry with a practical use but have to say in my area there simply are not the quantity or quality of craftfairs that Twissy enjoys


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## Tom_W (Oct 23, 2012)

*Offensive weapon*

Curly, 

That would be prohibited under the offensive weapons act in the UK :biggrin:

T


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## Curly (Oct 23, 2012)

*I was only trying to illustrate cutting edge design.*

Among other things it will break bad habits like chewing pens, putting pens in your pants pockets and sitting on them , and it will stop people from grabbing your pen.  

My apologies Chuck, I didn't mean to sidetrack the thread.


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## Dalecamino (Oct 23, 2012)

Curly said:


> Among other things it will break bad habits like chewing pens, putting pens in your pants pockets and sitting on them , and it will stop people from grabbing your pen.
> 
> My apologies Chuck, I didn't mean to sidetrack the thread.


No problem Pete. Like a breath of fresh air :biggrin: That pen needed to be posted here. Too cool! :wink:


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## Jgrden (Oct 23, 2012)

I still like your El Camino. I have had four.


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## Dalecamino (Oct 23, 2012)

Jgrden said:


> I still like your El Camino. I have had four.


Thanks John. Then, we're tied at four.:biggrin:


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## jasontg99 (Oct 24, 2012)

bluwolf said:


> Curly,
> 
> I can't quite put my finger on it...but something just doesn't look very user friendly. Something about the ergonomics of it...I don't know..it looks a little off. But maybe that's just me.
> 
> Mike



Mike,

    He did say it was "cutting edge".  

Jason


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## Dalecamino (Oct 24, 2012)

Just in case you missed this one. Robert has made my point for me. I needn't say any more.
http://www.penturners.org/forum/f13/big-red-my-way-102976/


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## glycerine (Oct 24, 2012)

chriselle said:


> Chuck,
> 
> You and I...we build guitars, right?:wink: The '54 Strat, the '59 Les Paul, the '51 Nocaster (pre Tele).
> Fender and Gibson unlike us have had the capital for research and innovation for the past 60 years yet almost every guitar in their line-up is a very close reproduction of those original holy grails (except for some of the questionable 70's stuff:wink. The same can be said for amp design.
> ...


 
I agree with this in that there is only so much that can be done to a pen.  There's only so many functional parts, there's not a lot that CAN be changed...


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## Gilrock (Oct 24, 2012)

dalecamino said:


> Just in case you missed this one. Robert has made my point for me. I needn't say any more.
> http://www.penturners.org/forum/f13/big-red-my-way-102976/


 
Sweet...a new kitless we can all copy.


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## Haynie (Oct 24, 2012)

I am happy to see the trend move away from plastic sticks with clips.  For a while all one material used and the best one could say was the pattern/grain matched up.  I am happy to see some folks not resting on their laurels and expanding their designs.  I mean let's face it the pen is a limited canvas if it is going to remain useful but there is room for expanding designs away from expensive plastic sticks with clips.


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## Andrew_K99 (Oct 24, 2012)

This thread, and some of the comments popping up in other threads, are somewhat bothersome to me. They suggest that those making kitless pens aren't putting any effort into the design and are just making boring pens.

I believe this is detrimental to the advancement of the penturners pursuing this side of the hobby. Kitless pens take a lot of effort and are much more creative than the vast majority of the kit pens that are posted daily; I'd hate to see what some would say if that was discussed.  If you do some research on fountain pens (modern or vintage) you'll see majority of them are quite similar with monotone colours and maybe an accent band (or 3) on the clip [examples]. Pens like Roberts aren't the norm, my guess is because people are boring and like plain pens and/or they are cost prohibitive.

I am discouraged about posting my first completed "stick with a clip" and probably won't now. Seems like I have to reinvent the wheel before I can post anything.

AK


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## Gilrock (Oct 24, 2012)

I feel the same Andrew.  I'd have to look to see if I said anything I shouldn't but it would have been because I feel like comments in threads like this are attacking me.  I can't even remember what I've said because I've typed a lot of comments that I ended up deleting...in the end I can't remember what got deleted and which ones I hit submit on. 

I know I probably take things personal when they might not be directed at me.  I don't know if this happens to others but as a beginner I'm usually finding others I look up to and it seems like that one person you really want to get a comment from because you admire his/her work is the one person that seems to never comment or like anything you post.  Just look at my last kitless I posted...was it really not worthy of even a polite "like" from the long list of you that were absent (and will not be getting a xmas card this year)...lol.  It was only like my 4th kitless and it had things I've never done before.  I have a PITH pen that I want to show but I've been waiting for the delivery to be confirmed.  Shape wise it wasn't anything special but material wise it was a new challenge for me.  I feel like I'm going to need to start off the post with an apology for it not meeting the creative standards around here.


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## Texatdurango (Oct 24, 2012)

Andrew_K99 said:


> This thread, and some of the comments popping up in other threads, are somewhat bothersome to me. They suggest that those making kitless pens aren't putting any effort into the design and are just making boring pens.
> 
> I believe this is detrimental to the advancement of the penturners pursuing this side of the hobby. Kitless pens take a lot of effort and are much more creative than the vast majority of the kit pens that are posted daily; I'd hate to see what some would say if that was discussed.  If you do some research on fountain pens (modern or vintage) you'll see majority of them are quite similar with monotone colours and maybe an accent band (or 3) on the clip [examples]. Pens like Roberts aren't the norm, my guess is because people are boring and like plain pens and/or they are cost prohibitive.
> 
> ...


I too am a little put out with the recent comments.  Robert did a nice job on his pen and deserves all the compliments he gets BUT.... there is a way of paying someone a compliment without knocking the work of others and that is one problem with this forum!  One person pays a compliment then the next person to post has to "up the ante" with his compliment then the next does the same and so on.... until members run out of nice things to say then start downgrading the work of others as a way of paying a compliment!

I agree that this downgrading is detrimental to the efforts of those just starting out, after all, why should they run the risk of showing the fruits of their labor by showing a pen they made only to be the brunt of someone's jabs.

As Andrew showed with his "examples" link, people have been enjoying their *sticks with clips* for over a hundred years now and there are some of us who like the vintage pens.

Andrew, there are still those of us who enjoy seeing a nice pen now and then so post when you're ready!


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## Dalecamino (Oct 24, 2012)

OK, when I posted originally, I thought I might spark some interest in going a little farther on kitless pens, by some who have been making them for some time now. NOT for the ones just getting started. 

Andrew, Gil, George or anyone else....I apologize for any damage my comments may have caused you. Certainly, continue making your pens as you wish. Thank you for your comments.


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## flyrod (Oct 24, 2012)

Post it Andrew!  Shoot I just finished my first kitless and was pumped that I it actually looked like a pen!  AND I didn't even do a clip.  I was just happy the cap screwed on....only took 15 turns, but it screwed on!

We can't run before we walk....my next step is a stick with a clip...and I'll post it...and it will look like crap, but someday they'll be up there with skip-rat and the likes...you guys are an inspiration....and I've got thick skin  : )


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## Gilrock (Oct 24, 2012)

Yeah and I had one of those restless nights, got little sleep, and have been tired and grumpy all day.

BTW Chuck...I've been wondering how to put rings on a kitless cap and I just noticed on the sidebar that you posted a tutorial on that.  I really appreciate that kind of help.  Looks like you really got to pay attention to the thickness of the cap to accomplish that.

I think this is exactly what happens.  A lot of us start out following tutorials so our first several pens come out looking a lot like the tutorial.


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## skiprat (Oct 24, 2012)

As specific names are never used, I'm unsure if my comments were included in those that are now upsetting people. My comments are NEVER meant as an insult, and I try to never be overly critical of anyones work. 
If anyone is upset with anything I have said then I sincerley apologise. It was never the intent. My replies are also 'Just another opinion' 

Of course this is a double edged sword though. If people ask for 'C&C's ' or 'All comments welcomed- good or bad' then isn't that what they want?
Do they only really mean 'Please just tell me you like my pen' ?

If so, then comments are going to get much less and only the 'Like' button will be used. 

When I post a pen, the comments I really like are those that express their opinions and most often have better suggestions than what I did. 
I enjoy a bit of banter with my buddies during their posts and mine. 
I really detest the posts were I get picked out and mentioned in posts.
I don't enjoy nicotine enemas. 

But think on this....
What hurts more? 250 views of your work and no comments except maybe a couple of NPGJ's or from folks that have also coincidently just posted a pic? 
Or someone taking the time to have a good look and giving you an honest opinion, even if it's a little critical?

I dunno....I'm getting fed up again.


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## Gilrock (Oct 24, 2012)

I'm a little lost as to who is responding to who or what...but in my opinion any feedback is good feedback. It bumps your thread to the top of the list.


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## Twissy (Oct 24, 2012)

Chuck asked what I felt was a very valid question, and it seems to have opened a can of worms.
  I consider myself very much a novice in the custom pen making world having been making them for about 9 months with about 25 under my belt. Not once did I feel that Chuck’s question was a slap in the face for my imagination/creativity. Will I ever be complete as a custom pen maker? Never! Surely the nature of this beast is that there is no end to where it can go.

  When posting a pen in the SOYP admittedly there is an element of “feeding the ego” as I am sure there is with most, but I also want the criticisms. It is the best way to learn. I’m afraid if you post a pen and don’t get a response from those that you deem to be the masters then maybe it is because either the pen doesn’t cut the mustard or they haven’t seen it. If you are that upset by not getting anything from them,  imagine how you will feel if it is a criticism.

  Whilst there are those that after reading this thread that are reluctant to show their creations for fear of it being a “stick with a clip”, then there are others who have also read this thread will be reluctant to comment for fear of offending.

  And as others have said, “sticks with clips” have and still are the preferred implements of the majority of fountain pen aficionados.
  At the end of the day it’s what you get pleasure from making, and if you’ve enjoyed making it that’s what really matters.

  Regards
  John


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## Haynie (Oct 24, 2012)

Apparently the offensive post was mine.  I saw no names mentioned in my post and I stand by what I wrote.  As makers of hand made pens my opinion is that we should probably not be looking to emulate the mass produced pens of the past/present.  In many ways I find the kit pens to be much more creatively pleasing than many of the kitless pens that are posted.  When someone posts a kit pen my eye does not go to the plating or the components of the kit.  My eyes are drawn to the body/cap.  I am in awe of the creativity of some of the lowly kit pen makers.  They have such a small canvas to work with and they come up with some killer and often times mind blowing ideas in such a small place.  Then I do look at the components of the kit.  If the components/kit does not match the creative efforts of the maker then it detracts from the over all aesthetic of the pen.  This being said there are boring kit pens just as there are boring kitless pens.  Many have gushed over pens, kitless and kit, that I did not give a second glance to.

Yes, I know the hard work that goes into making a kitless pen.  I am struggling to make something out of the box and kitless right now.  Is it easy, no.  Is it pleasing? yes, I enjoy the challenge. Will everyone like it? probably not.  Will I care? probably not.  It is my opinion of what I make that is important.  

For those who were offended, if you like your pens, if they push your creative vision to your limits then by all means keep doing what makes you happy. If you like your pen and you are satisfied with your efforts by all means pat yourself on the back.  That is what it is all about.

At this time there are people looking for pens I have posted.  You will not see any.  I have not posted, nor will I post a pen until I feel it matches my creative vision.  Ok, I will probably post, or my partner may post, my pith because that is what people do and I think that is a perfectly fair expectation.


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## dogcatcher (Oct 24, 2012)

The best thing is that some people will always try to improve on the status quo.  There is no limit to creativity in any field.  There always is room for improvement, if it wasn't for the small percentage that believe that, most people would still be making slimlines with the plating that wears off.  

If you only satisfied with the status quo you will never be part of the crew that forges ahead into new methods.  If you are satisfied that is okay, but others will still have to try somethings that have not been done before and they will become the leaders in the field of innovations.   Either pull, push or get out of the way............


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## Andrew_K99 (Oct 25, 2012)

Haynie my comment wasn't solely in response to you, though I did quote you and may steal the term for my first kitless post in SOYP's .

My frustration was in how it came across like some were saying the current kitless pens were boring or not creative enough and kitless makers need to do more with their pens.  Sure some embellishment could added but it's not needed to make a nice pen.

I believe the current pens, sleek and simple as they may be, are great pens and very practical.  I think they stay true to vintage and modern fountain pens in their appearance; there is a reason so many pens are like this, they are obviously quite desirable.

Anyways, I'm off to post my first kitless in SOYP's,  I hope everyone feels free to comment, critique and offer suggestions for my next, this is how we all learn.

AK


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## Gilrock (Oct 25, 2012)

Andrew_K99 said:


> though I did quote you and may steal the term for my first kitless post in SOYP's .


 
Darn it I had the same idea but didn't quite finish my pen last night.


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## Parson (Oct 25, 2012)

I have some very distinctive ideas in mind for kitless pens, but I don't have the time at the moment to create them (or learn kitless for that matter).

Just wait though. After I get my securities license in the spring I'll have more time to devote to new skills and designs in the workshop!


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