# Made in the USA Pen Kits



## Parson (Feb 27, 2011)

Wondering what the interest would be in a line of American made pen kits. I'd certainly pay a couple of bucks more for something made here. How about you?


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## skiprat (Feb 27, 2011)

Mmmmm.....patriotism is great, but we have to be honest and realist at the same time. 
Whether kits were made in USA ( America is actually a continent not a country :wink or UK or any other 'first world' country, the price would definetely be more than a 'few bucks more'.  As long as people want value for money, then we don't stand a chance of seeing them made here.

I personally hope they never get made in any first world country as that would mean I'd have to give up the hobby as I couldn't afford it.:wink:

Just my opinion....so don't shoot me:biggrin:


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## PenMan1 (Feb 27, 2011)

I'd buy the "good" ones.

Made in the U.S.A. means a lot to me. BUT, the quality level MUST surpass what I currently use. As much as it hurts me to say this, Made in the USA no longer means superior quality.

For example, Egyptian cotton sheets, IMHO are far superior to those made with South Georgia cotton. At one time, I used American made cameras. The I discovered German made optics (far better and not much more expensive). The I found Japanese optics. Better than USA, less expensive. Unfortunately, I see this same trend developing and automobiles. ( I not trying to start a war here, but you do have to give Honda, BMW and others their).

I remember as a child laughing at a kid with a transistor radio. It was small, cheap and made in Japan. My laughter was because the USA perfected radio (so we thought). "Real" radios were big, expensive and carried Emerson, GE and Philco name plates. Therefore this tiny $4 radio had to be "junk".

I would pay more, BUT the quality must be substantially better to support my spending more dollars.

Respectfully submitted.


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## IPD_Mrs (Feb 27, 2011)

skiprat said:


> .:wink:
> 
> Just my opinion....so don't shoot me:biggrin:


 

Skip - just a little fyi - most people don't shoot rats they just put traps out that flip down over their scrawny little necks and squish them ... fwiw :biggrin::wink:

No comment on the thread at all and this has nothing to do with the comment on the thread so don't get freaked out I'm just pokin fun at a friend!!!

_Mrs._


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## Glenn McCullough (Feb 27, 2011)

Unlike many, I suppose, I dont make pens for volume profit. I'd rather make my "expression" pens with better materials when price is not as much a factor. When I do make a volume order, I can always order the imports.


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## skiprat (Feb 27, 2011)

MLKWoodWorking said:


> Skip - just a little fyi - most people don't shoot rats they just put traps out that flip down over their scrawny little necks and squish them ... fwiw :biggrin::wink:
> 
> No comment on the thread at all and this has nothing to do with the comment on the thread so don't get freaked out I'm just pokin fun at a *friend*!!!
> 
> _Mrs._


 
 I hope I never ever P you off :tongue:


I think the poll results are very interesting so far.
Perhaps people would also comment on just how much more they would be willing to pay for the exact same quality if it was made in their own country?  10% ? 50%? 200% ?


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## IPD_Mrs (Feb 27, 2011)

The reality of this is it will be more than a few bucks. Here in the US we have two government agencies that prevent the US from being competitive on a global market. OSHA and EPA When we were a top industrial nation, we had factories everywhere with the neatest well build machines money could buy at the time. Many of those machines were so well built at the beginning of the 20th century that they are still running today. The problem is that these machines are not running in the US and if they are then the company has less than ten employees to slide under OSHA's radar. They also do some pretty ridiculous things such as fines for having Windex in a non-marked spray bottle, because you buy in bulk and refill quality spray bottles. 

EPA is both good and bad in my opinion. I don't want to start any lengthy discussion on that.

Suffice it to say we could compete with a non-union work force if it were not for OSHA and EPA (in my opinion). If you look at what is happening to China enviromentally wise, then EPA is doing it's job. OSHA on the other hand may just be hindering natural selection!  :biggrin::biggrin:


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## Texatdurango (Feb 27, 2011)

skiprat said:


> Mmmmm.....patriotism is great, but we have to be honest and realist at the same time.
> Whether kits were made in USA ( America is actually a continent not a country :wink *or UK or any other 'first world' country*, the price would definetely be more than a 'few bucks more'. As long as people want value for money, then we don't stand a chance of seeing them made here.
> 
> I personally hope they never get made in any first world country as that would mean I'd have to give up the hobby as I couldn't afford it.:wink:
> ...


 
Funny, I never considered the UK as a first world country, I always though of it as a tourist attraction that had neat looking castles and people that talked with cool accents!


Parson, I wouldn't pay more for kits because I really don't see how "made in USA" would insure better quality just because they cost more to make!  As an example, I still use kit clips on my home made pens because good quality clips aren't available..... anywhere other than finding a jeweler or silversmith to make you one or two at a time while carrying high price tags!  I don't know anyone who would be willing to invest tens of thousands of dollars in facilities and equipment then be willing to work 12 -15 hours a day for $3.50 an hour.

Actually I find the poll results surprising based on all the comments made on the forum about how much kits cost, the number of people waiting on group buys to save a few dollars, now the majority says they would pay more for a kit?  A few pennies perhaps but a few dollars more per kit...I doubt it!


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## PenMan1 (Feb 27, 2011)

Very interesting question, Skip!

 I would pay 25 - 30 percent more for the exact same pen parts. The reason I would pay that is because the way we are structured in the U.S., that percentage is about "the penalty" for locating manufacturing operations here instead of China. 

I like a "level playing field" and I think that U.S. workers are inventive and hard working, but our business restrictions ( I won't elaborate, so that we can all remian civil) give other countries a 30 percent advantage.


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## Russianwolf (Feb 27, 2011)

I'd be willing to pay more to give my neighbor a job, yes.


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## workinforwood (Feb 27, 2011)

Buy pen parts from Mike Redburn..he is USA. Otherwise, I guess you better start saving your money, the equipment is going to be expensive, but other than the building cost, equipment and supplies, it is possible to compete.  Things are turning around, so be optimistic. I believe manufacturing will one day dominate in the USA again. In my mind it is only logical that it do so, and you can already see multitudes of companies that have done so. The two reasons it happens is labor cost and transportation cost.  You outsource to other countries, eventually those people have more money, they buy more stuff, they want more stuff, their rates go up and the factory becomes less profitable. Then the fuel costs of transporting things, at a potential for $200 a barrel of oil..and a ship burning 10 barrels a mile, well to get the goods back to the USA is ridiculous.  With todays technology, a couple guys could, if they had the funds, equipments, building etc, compete with Chinese pens.  I actually believe that not only could you make the parts here, you could beat their price. There is no doubt the government does a lot to prevent businesses from thriving, with taxes and regulations, but private ingenuity and determination will always over come it in the long term. We the USA will rise again.


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## skiprat (Feb 27, 2011)

Mike and Jeff, those are nice sentiments and aspirations but I believe that as long as USA owes China around $900 Billion then they are pretty much commited to continue to import Chinese products. :wink:
I believe the deal is something like 'Sure, we lend you money, you buy our stuff'

Luxury items(  like pen kits )aside, when it comes down to the crunch, I will provide for my own family by buying from elsewhere before looking out for my neighbour. 
The reason he doesn't have a job is because he ( and I and you) wanted more money for making stuff than we were prepared to pay for them. :wink:


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## IPD_Mrs (Feb 27, 2011)

skiprat said:


> MLKWoodWorking said:
> 
> 
> > Skip - just a little fyi - most people don't shoot rats they just put traps out that flip down over their scrawny little necks and squish them ... fwiw :biggrin::wink:
> ...


 

No worries . . I have some special cheese just for you :wink:   I rarely get mad enough at friends to want to fatally harm them :biggrin:

As for your poll - I don't know for sure how I would answer that -If the quality were better then I would pay more - cry now or cry later as Mike has said many times over.  If the quality were not better then I wouldn't pay  more just because it says "Made in the USA."  If I am paying more so my fellow American's have employment then they best make good on that employment!   I'm not really sure though where that percentage ends - I think it makes a difference as to how important that item (whatever it might be) is to me.  Pen kits - I only buy a select few now since so many are IMHO kind of junk anyway.

_Mrs._


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## Smitty37 (Feb 27, 2011)

*Maybe*



skiprat said:


> Mmmmm.....patriotism is great, but we have to be honest and realist at the same time.
> Whether kits were made in USA ( America is actually a continent not a country :wink or UK or any other 'first world' country, the price would definetely be more than a 'few bucks more'. As long as people want value for money, then we don't stand a chance of seeing them made here.
> 
> I personally hope they never get made in any first world country as that would mean I'd have to give up the hobby as I couldn't afford it.:wink:
> ...


  I was in staples a couple of weeks ago and either cross or parker (I'm not sure which) branded refills were clearly marked made in UK....and schmidt refills are made in Germany.  So I think all is not lost.


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## LeeR (Feb 27, 2011)

Parson said:


> Wondering what the interest would be in a line of American made pen kits. I'd certainly pay a couple of bucks more for something made here. How about you?


 
Sadly, this is probably just a philosophical pondering, but could possibly be done by a forum member, who is small enough to avoid all the roadblocks to starting a manufacturing business in the USA. That plus offering unique and/or customizable products that a mass producer cannot offer.

I work for a product development company, and most of our business is manufacturing PC boards. However, very few components come from the USA. We buy bare boards from China, and most of the electronic components we buy (even from USA companies like Motorola, TI, National Semiconductor,etc.) come from China or Southeast Asia. We provide the engineering excellence, and work with customers to get them exactly what they need. We offer rapid turnaround, and ongoing development they usually need early on in the development of their product. If their volume gets really large, and the product is stable, they will likely take their business offshore.

It sucks, but it is just a fact of life.

My wife and I have driven imports as well as domestics (I drive a VW GTI, she drives a 1999 Caravan), but I am ready to give my auto $ all to Detroit the next time. Besides the very relaible Caravan, we also had a 2001 PT Cruiser, a really good car (gave it to my daughter when she graduated from college.) I've never driven Fords, but seriously considering a new Explorer. I hate to see ALL manufacturing leave this country. Some is inevitable, some will never come back, however, some can be saved.

Just my $.03 (adjusted due to federal bloat and excess).


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## Smitty37 (Feb 27, 2011)

*Hmmmm*

Now that's kind of  a tough question for me - since I am a seller, if it happened and they were successful they'd put me out of business.  But, then I am a septigenarian so maybe that would be ok.


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## toolcrazy (Feb 27, 2011)

Even though the USA made kits are going to be more expensive. If the quality is there, I'll buy them. Since I sell completed pens. I would just offer the USA made completed pens at a premium. There are plenty of buyers willing to pay the extra for domestic made products.


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## BKelley (Feb 27, 2011)

I would pay more for a kit made in the USA if the quality is the same as the import.  I think it would be nice to tell a customer that this pen is 100% American made and no American jobs were lost in the making of this pen.  Folks, when are we going to wake up, ten jobs going off shore is ten Americans out of work.  Multiply this by thousands and we end up with an economy that is 2nd rate to Lower Slobovia.


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## arioux (Feb 27, 2011)

This is an interesting denate.  I just return take a look at the photo that Timberbits posted about the chinese manufacturer (home shop), and tried to figure out what kind of set up it would take to host the same equipment in the US or Canada.  Worker's healt regulations, safety regulations, environmental regulations, construction regulations etc etc etc.....All the business permit and taxes.  It would not be just a few $ more, the price would be 4 mabe 5 time the price if not even more.

And that's without counting the insurance because of the number of people that will sue you because they scratch their finger with your clip because one passed the quality control and had a little dent in it.  And i'm serious about this one


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## Parson (Feb 27, 2011)

Texatdurango said:
			
		

> Parson, I wouldn't pay more for kits because I really don't see how "made in USA" would insure better quality just because they cost more to make!



I never inferred that "made in the USA" meant better quality. Just made here instead of China or Taiwan.


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## OKLAHOMAN (Feb 27, 2011)

It would be more than just a couple of bucks more, think double to triple.
The company would first have to invest millions of start-up dollars, to buy property, build a plant, hire workers that get benifits and decent wages, buy the machinery,set-up distributors, and most likley still import some raw materials. Keep dreaming that we're ever going to become a country of manufacturing plants again.


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## Andrew Arndts (Feb 27, 2011)

to ask this question, is to ask, Does a Bear defecate in the woods?:biggrin:
Heck I be just as happy to make something that wasn't a 50-50 gamble whether or not it assembles correctly.


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## Displaced Canadian (Feb 27, 2011)

This is one of those questions that on the surface is a simple yes or no question, but soon gets complicated. When Sam Walton opened his first store he sold products from the USA. He soon realized that people wanted better prices and now we have the Wal Mart of today. My wife worked in a gift shop in Skagway Alaska that sold real made in Alaska stuff and it was right across the street from the Skagway outlet store that had alaskan gifts that were made in China. Tourists complained that it was so hare to find Alaskan gifts and they hated to buy the made in China stuff, but at the end of the day when they went back to the cruise ship there was more Skagway outlet store bags than bags from any of the real made in Alaska stores. I use the word gift because I can't spell that word for the stuff we sell to tourists so they can give their grandkids something from their trip. 
 As for US regulations, I'm glad that I have clean air to breathe and I don't have to worry about water quality and I have seen what happens when safety regulations are not paid attention to. Bleach water looks like plain water until somebody starts screaming. Better safe than sorry, But try to keep the regulations reasonable.
 Would I pay more for a made in USA kit? A little, if it was worth it. Until then I shall use kits as I need them and start to head in the direction of the world of kitless pens and hopefully this year take a crack at lost wax casting.


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## Texatdurango (Feb 27, 2011)

OKLAHOMAN said:


> It would be more than just a couple of bucks more, think double to triple.
> The company would first have to invest millions of start-up dollars, to buy property, build a plant, hire workers that get benifits and decent wages, buy the machinery,set-up distributors, and most likley still import some raw materials. Keep dreaming that we're ever going to become a country of manufacturing plants again.


 
Not only the facts mentioned above but could you imagine the EPA requirements to deal with the chemicals involved with plating and cleaning metals? Probably cost a bundle just to set up facilities to deal with chemical disposal.

I'm sure in some countries, pouring left over muriatic acid or similar chemicals out the back door is acceptable but I doubt you would get away with that here..... unless you're on a few acres out in the sticks!


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## DrBills (Feb 27, 2011)

Hey Skiprat,

You make several salient observations, but I beg to differ on a point you make, to wit:

NORTH America and SOUTH America are continents. Together they are called  The Americas. Usage of America in the modern context is a reference to  the USA, as opposed to its original use to mark the area we now call Brazil. Words hijacked into the English language tend to do this, wonder around a bit  before settling down.

As to your point about the costs, I think only those willing to market  and purchase items with the "Made in the USA" label would lay out the  extra cash. It would entirely be, as you point out, a matter of  patriotism.  I think the wood or other mats turned would have to be  grown/made here as well.

I would certainly have some in my inventory, but beyond that, they would  indeed have to be of superior quality and/or more interesting design  for me to make them my main supply.

We in the US were very gung-ho about creating a world trade economy, and having done so, we reap the whirlwind.

Take care,
Bill



skiprat said:


> Mmmmm.....patriotism is great, but we have to be honest and realist at the same time.
> Whether kits were made in USA ( America is actually a continent not a country :wink or UK or any other 'first world' country, the price would definetely be more than a 'few bucks more'.  As long as people want value for money, then we don't stand a chance of seeing them made here.
> 
> I personally hope they never get made in any first world country as that would mean I'd have to give up the hobby as I couldn't afford it.:wink:
> ...


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## 76winger (Feb 27, 2011)

Just some thoughts about this in no certain order:

I would buy kits made in the USA, but knowing they'd cost more I would expect better quality for the extra dollars spent. For a pen I'm making to sell though, I could only see this working for mid-range to high-end pens where the extra cost could be blended in with the cost of the finish piece, so as not to end up with nothing more than an overpriced slimline or something. 

I like thought of supporting fellow americans with my hobby, but realities of the markets as already mentioned make that very hard to do. I wish this weren't so.

As time goes on we're becoming more of a world market rather than a continental or country based market overall. As technology brings us closer together the world over, we have to begin thinking in terms of supporting our fellow humans rather than just our fellow countrymen (and women). 

I also believe that, in time, 3rd world countries that can currently manufacture parts cheaper than America can due to regulator agencies will ultimately lose that advantage. Sooner or later the world is not going to continue to put up with contaminated paints and food, substandard quality control and other things that is currently tolerated just to save a buck on price. Eventually the playing field will even back between areas around the world and manufacturing will follow and even back out as well. Will it happen in our lifetime? I doubt it, but I believe it will happen eventually. This is my own opinion on the matter. 

Just think about China manufacturing for instance, they've taken the world by storm due to their low manufacturing costs, and a lot of that is because they've historically had a much lower standard of living. But as they raise their standard of living and start replacing their bikes with automobiles and start wearing nicer cloths and many other things, they will demand more compensation for their work to be able to keep up that standard of living. And what follows that? Higher costs of products produced.  

I actually look forward to such a time, but doubt I'll live long enough to see it. Change doesn't come easy or fast, but it does come. Until that time, would feel more comfortable supporting my neighbor than someone farther away that I don't know and will most likely never meet.


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## jttheclockman (Feb 27, 2011)

I won't answer the question because there are too many variables there to such a general question. Those that mock OSHA and other federal regulations should be thankful they are in place. I do everyday I work out in the construction field. I value my life. Those that say they would buy the more expensive USA kits then go turn the blanks on ther Taiwanese lathe or use their Chinese tools. Nice. What chased the manufactoring out of the country is corporate greed. There is alot of blame to go around when it comes to what caused those plants leaving here. To make kits as shown through some of Timberbits eyes would be very difficult to compete. Interesting discussion but fruitless as I see it. my 2¢


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## bitshird (Feb 27, 2011)

The kits/components would have to be a far superior design and of significant quality to get me to buy based solely based on country of origin. And I would venture a guess that to purchase a slim line pen kit Made in USA one would have to spend 16 to 18 dollars just a guess, but I think it's pretty close.


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## ctubbs (Feb 27, 2011)

I have a market that will pay markedly higher prices for real "Made in USA" products.  If we could come up with kits costing no more that 300% of today's cost, they will sell.  There are companies today already set up doing plating and castings here in the USA.  We have a shop within 50 miles of my door that does excellent plating, even genuine Chrome like used to be on real car bumpers.  This could be set up from small existing businesses around the country, very similar to the way the China vendors do.

Yes, there is a rather large market out there for real Made in the USA products.  I shop for these products and only buy the junk when I can not find home grown things.  
Charles


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## Smitty37 (Feb 27, 2011)

*I don't agree this time*



OKLAHOMAN said:


> It would be more than just a couple of bucks more, think double to triple.
> The company would first have to invest millions of start-up dollars, to buy property, build a plant, hire workers that get benifits and decent wages, buy the machinery,set-up distributors, and most likley still import some raw materials. Keep dreaming that we're ever going to become a country of manufacturing plants again.


 
I think they would be a little higher but not double or triple.  My guess would be less than 25%.  But that doesn't matter, because the powers that be in the USA do not want us to be a manufacturing nation.  They think we can maintain a high standard of living by processing medical bills.  We can't but they think we can. 

We Americans are our own worst enemy.  We have allowed so many roadblocks to be put in the way of industry that we price ourselves out of the market.  It is not really the cheap labor that drives much of our manufacturing overseas - it is the unrealistic regulations that we've put in place.  And, so far we just aren't smart enough to step back and say Whoa - enough is enough.  We used to be a free country, and in some ways we still are but we are about the most regulated free country there has ever been.  Someday (probably not in my lifetime) I expect the people here to wake up and demand the the government begin doing what it should have been doing all along - find ways to remove rather than construct barriers for a highly productive and hard working work force and allow them to compete on a level playing field. When that does happen we will really shine.


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## Russianwolf (Feb 27, 2011)

an country without regulations?????

Do you really want to see what that can and does look like?

http://www.engadget.com/2008/11/10/video-chinas-toxic-wastelands-of-consumer-electronics-revealed/


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## ashaw (Feb 27, 2011)

USA made kits is interesting.  I said yes but here is the problem. 

This past summer I was talking to a production machine shop that uses Swedish lathes.  Provided he can produce 1000+ kits.  Plating not his price would be $25.00/pen for a slimline type style.  The parts still need to be plated.  There are a couple of plating companies in this company most of them are over in China.  

Something like a Majestic or Statesman would be in the $100.00/pen range.  It all depends upon if the trim is cast or machined. 

Remember there is also a setup charge which depends on the shop. 

Alan


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## timberbits (Feb 27, 2011)

Made in the USA? You might find that the question may not mean what you think it really means.

Made in Australia? might also be a similar question. I have quite a few friends in the high end garment industry which manufactures Made in Australia clothing. The whole shirt is made in Main Land China except the buttons and button holes. According to WTO and Australian law definition only the last 5% needs to be assembled and finished in Australia for the item to be called made in Australia. They sew in the buttons and put on the button holes, give it a wash and iron, then put the "Made in Australia" sticker on it.

Vehicles are the same. I found it interesting when one of the high end car wheel manufactures in South Australia went broke and was bought out by it's biggest customer - Harley Davidson Motor cycles. The spokesman for Harley Davidson said they produced the worlds best wheels are very competitively priced and they couldn't afford not to have this business go under. This only showed to me that one of the US made bikes had Australian wheels on them.

There are several things which make it hard for a totally made US pen kit. You might find that one day someone will call it a US made pen kit but only the last 5% is done in the US (all the components sources overseas are put into the bag in the US and a made in USA sticker on it).

The factors preventing this as highlight by previous post include high wages, EPS (Erin Brockovich - hexavalent chromium in drinking water issues). But another factor which I think is missed is the disparity of scrap metal price and new billet prices.

Pen parts are manufactured from solid brass tubes. Even the brass tubes we use are not extruded from a machine that way, it is actually machined out a solid rod of brass tubes. In China and Taiwan, the waste (scrap) is sold back to the manufactures of the solid brass rods at a 20 - 30% price difference.  

So if buy it in solid rod for $10/lb they will buy it back at $7/lb. This compares to us in the western world (I am not currently educated in the current price for brass) would buy the rods for about $25/lb and only get $2/lb as scrap. Pen component making is a very wasteful procedure so scrap metal prices are a important part of the equation. Ever turned a bowl and see all the wood shavings on the floor?

This is just another factor that we in the West seem to forget about.

There is a lot more too it as well but I will stop ranting now - Australia Too has become a non-manufacturing country, we are now nothing but the worlds mine pit and raw agricultural producer.


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## Smitty37 (Feb 27, 2011)

*Much Stricter Standard*

*​​​​​* The United States has a much stricter standard for claiming something is US made. Historically, the Federal Trade Commission has held that a product must be _wholly domestic _or _all or virtually all _made in the United States to substantiate an unqualified claim to be made in the USA. i.e. Few, if any, of us pen turners can claim our products are made in the USA because most of the hardware parts come from outside the USA as does a substantial amout of the wood or other material we use.



timberbits said:


> Made in the USA? You might find that the question may not mean what you think it really means.





timberbits said:


> Made in Australia? might also be a similar question. I have quite a few friends in the high end garment industry which manufactures Made in Australia clothing. The whole shirt is made in Main Land China except the buttons and button holes. According to WTO and Australian law definition only the last 5% needs to be assembled and finished in Australia for the item to be called made in Australia. They sew in the buttons and put on the button holes, give it a wash and iron, then put the "Made in Australia" sticker on it.
> 
> Vehicles are the same. I found it interesting when one of the high end car wheel manufactures in South Australia went broke and was bought out by it's biggest customer - Harley Davidson Motor cycles. The spokesman for Harley Davidson said they produced the worlds best wheels are very competitively priced and they couldn't afford not to have this business go under. This only showed to me that one of the US made bikes had Australian wheels on them.
> 
> ...


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## Smitty37 (Feb 27, 2011)

*Fewer*



Russianwolf said:


> an country without regulations?????
> 
> Do you really want to see what that can and does look like?
> 
> http://www.engadget.com/2008/11/10/video-chinas-toxic-wastelands-of-consumer-electronics-revealed/


 
I know we can get along with a lot less regulation than we have without things looking like that. It isn't a choice of no regulations at all and being choked by regulations, there is a happy medium that I believe we have gone well beyond.


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## jttheclockman (Feb 27, 2011)

Smitty37 said:


> OKLAHOMAN said:
> 
> 
> > It would be more than just a couple of bucks more, think double to triple.
> ...


 


Smitty

Honestly how can you say that labor is not the main factor here. You have to be kidding. Those people working in those sweat shops for peanuts would never fly here and SHOULD never fly here. It is dispicable what these countries do to exploit their labor force. Like I said there is enough blame to go around for all to accept. You can start with gov. and regulations. Then you can go to greed by these companies to pay all the so called CEO all these bonuses. Then there is the American people who demand the lowest prices they can get and why because the $$$ has to be spread thinner and thinner everyday. You turn that around and you bring manufactoring back here. Until then cheap labor wins. I see this every single day and every single day non union labor takes jobs away from me. Why cause it is cheaper. Cheaper is not always better.


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## ctubbs (Feb 28, 2011)

Smitty, our government NEVER EVER does anything in moderation.  It is always hell bent for leather and Devil take the hind most.  I am old enough to remember before OHSA or EPA came into effect.  I remember air around our plants so thick we had to turn on the headlights five miles outside their fences just so oncoming traffic and people could see us and not run us over.  That was here in the farm land of west Kentucky.  I was in Pittsburg in 67 and the air was so full of smoke from the steel mills that I could look across the valley from one hill to where the furnaces were and only able to find their location when they tapped so the red glow of molten steel would gently dispel the darkness.  Do we wish to go back to those conditions?  Not me, no, not me!  But when we start to dismantle the EPA or OSHA regs, that is exactly where we are heading.  I have seen running water catch on fire and burn.  I have seen raw hydrochloric acid openly dumped into our water ways.  I have observed tons of refrigerant dumped into the atmosphere.  The list goes on and on but I will cut this one short.  Are we over regulated?  Yes, but for very good reason.  Our industrial leaders will cut any corner possible to save a penny.  Alright, I am now officially off my soap box.  Sorry for the over long post.  I would promise not to do it again, but you all would know I was lying.
Charles


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## pens by david (Jun 27, 2011)

*owner*

I would buy period,most folks will buy USA products........

David in Beautiful Coeur d Alene,Idaho


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## wouldentu2? (Jun 27, 2011)

It would cost a lot less than you think for it to be made in america, but it would take volume like they put out over seas. Remember it is not that it costs so much for each pen t is the vast quantity they produce and we desire.


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## ed4copies (Jun 27, 2011)

toolcrazy said:


> Even though the USA made kits are going to be more expensive. If the quality is there, I'll buy them. Since I sell completed pens. I would just offer the USA made completed pens at a premium. There are plenty of buyers willing to pay the extra for domestic made products.



Exactly!


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## Parson (Jun 27, 2011)

I've a good mind to work on a 10,000 piece order for a quality US made pen kit. I'm betting I could get the price low enough to make it attractive.


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## Florida Marine (Jun 28, 2011)

I would pay for a US made anything.

I am a jingoist, something about being 4th generation military that does it for me.  

Know there are other nationalities represented here, but I am an American snob...not apologetic about it.

Sean


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## tbroye (Jul 28, 2011)

GE just signed a many hundreds of billions of dollars contract with China to move the HQ of one of their divisions to China. Good old american Company, hope they go under, let china bail them out. Government regulations have a big part to do with this both Nationaly and in certain States it's not just OSHA and the EPA there many other agencys involved.


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## NewLondon88 (Jul 28, 2011)

I'd be in favor of assessing huge tariffs on products that are imported
by companies who used to manufacture them here.
They used to make them here, they made money when they made them
here.. what changed?


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## PenPal (Jul 28, 2011)

Hey Guys,

Dig deep and show your all AMERICAN generosity and start paying teachers a reasonable salary, lower the class numbers, increase teaching staff. My daughter on holiday from Utah the most depressing of States in this regard as a ten year teacher with several American Degrees including her masters receives about the same hourly rate as a cleaner does over here. She works longer hours and is highly respected teaching middle school. Try using Biros for one year that should do it. My mates wife gets 350.00 dollars a day full time casual teaching 6hr days here.

Now my non inflamatory remark is to contrast with lets buy American remarks being churned under the heading of Rolls Royce pen kits for VW prices. In an ideal world we would support all our fellow countrymen over and above others. I personally have tried to support American businesses with mixed results. Above that I am Patriotic as the next guy.

Love the title IAP the International means just that to me, a fair go for all without predudice.

Like you I follow the for sale items on the forum watch the frenetic replies when prices are low or even free, not one potential buyer in ten puts in extra for receiving extra in fact from my reading folks look for free extras as well. My mate from Canada obtained timber felt like sharing at a nominal price received heavy criticism when he offered the timber at a nominal cost on the forum. A guy a member from France had the same result in France why not give the timber to us etc.

All around the world we seek out a bargain bulk buying a first obvious one on the Forum.
Costco opened here last week there was a few demonstrators at the opening imagine what they were saying.

Absolute bias becomes hatred. I speak of my hobby Pen Turning, my purchases are infinitely smaller than all the wanna be professionals. Thankful for the business people who support the IAP and share their knowledge, time and money with us. Examine as so called Hobbyists the negative effect on the economy when we sell product in our own countries
at venues, businesses etc. Is our first thought for us or others jobs,security of tenure.

In Australia there are no manufacturers of Pen Kits so I buy Chinese made Taiwan made kits
if in America or another country you produce kits of same or better quality the choice is mine where I buy.

I do hope the United States economy is resolved in the affirmative soon so many friends of mine are suffering. Archival quality pen kits are never going to be cheap enough for everyone.

At our Wood Guild meeting Wednesday this week our guest was a man who is University trained as a Furniture maker, our Parliament House is a extraordinary tribute to Australian Timbers throughout and all internal features made to world standards. Items are falling apart literally as the best glues in the world from twenty odd years ago are hardening, crystalising and literally falling apart.The jointing is still immaculate.

Best of good fortune seeking the end of the rainbow pot of gold with pen kits cheap as and sold finished for the most return, personally I will continue to share as I do now in fact a general discussion on pen kits is healthy, Ask yourself which car you drive and why the facts will be obvious. Remember my first Car an 1927 A Model Tourer bought by me in the 1950,s loved it. There were no real Australian made cars then, now we have GMH, Ford Etc
Japanese manufacturers in Australia.

Good luck with made in the USA. like you we are mostly descended from Immigrants from all over viva la difference.

Kindest regards Peter.


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## workinforwood (Jul 29, 2011)

America still leads the world in manufacturing. China workers are much cheaper but one American worker produces 80% more goods. The reason companies leave is soley due to taxation. This is a global economy and there's no stopping that. We have highest corporate taxes. Business is to make money. Businesses don't pay taxes too in reality that passes on to consumers. So if u make 8 widgets for every 2 from china but u pay 0 tax in China and 40% in usa, you can't compete.

Look at how they want to tax oil companies more money because they have 50 billion profit and they claim it will lower gas prices. The thinking is companies want to pay less taxes so they will lower the prices to accomplish a smaller tax bill. That's backwards thinking insanity. With reality thinking, companies don't pay taxes consumers do, the extra taxes will simply raise prices.


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## sbell111 (Jul 29, 2011)

NewLondon88 said:


> I'd be in favor of assessing huge tariffs on products that are imported
> by companies who used to manufacture them here.
> They used to make them here, they made money when they made them
> here.. what changed?


Part of what changed is that they couldn't compete on price with goods made outside of the country.  Also, we have to consider that many of these companies sell their items not just in the US.  Why wouldn't an international company chose to manufacture it's products wherever that it most benefits the bottom line?  It wouldn't.  In fact, it couldn't, both because it is competing against goods made at lower cost and because the company has a fiduciary responsibility to it's shareholders to maximize revenue.


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## Russianwolf (Jul 29, 2011)

workinforwood said:


> America still leads the world in manufacturing. China workers are much cheaper but one American worker produces 80% more goods. The reason companies leave is soley due to taxation. This is a global economy and there's no stopping that. We have highest corporate taxes. Business is to make money. Businesses don't pay taxes too in reality that passes on to consumers. So if u make 8 widgets for every 2 from china but u pay 0 tax in China and 40% in usa, you can't compete.
> 
> Let's say you make $1 net per widget made in the US and $2 net for a widget made in China. That would be $8 and $4 respectively. After taxes it's $4.8 versus $4. I'd move back to the US, especially if my main sales market is the US. Easier to keep sales up if you are employing the people that buy your product. Lay them off and suddenly they can't buy any product.
> 
> Look at how they want to tax oil companies more money because they have 50 billion profit and they claim it will lower gas prices. The thinking is companies want to pay less taxes so they will lower the prices to accomplish a smaller tax bill. That's backwards thinking insanity. With reality thinking, companies don't pay taxes consumers do, the extra taxes will simply raise prices.


Oil and Gas are a bad example for this. The prices of which the companies have next to no control over as they are sold on the commodities market and the prices get set by the buyers who base it on supply and demand.

Also the reality is that the corporate tax rate in China is 25%. In the US its 0-35% with most corporations being near the lower end by using the loopholes. Add in to that that in the US the Corps don't have to deal with the massive corruption problems that they have in most of the Asian countries, and it starts making less and less sense as to why they would move if solely based on tax reasons.


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## Leviblue (Jul 29, 2011)

Great posts and insights.  But back to the topic.

What's the status of the USA made kits?  I'm waiting to see what becomes available.


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## NewLondon88 (Jul 29, 2011)

Leviblue said:


> .
> 
> What's the status of the USA made kits?



oh, we're just waiting for one of us to come up with a couple of hundred
thousand dollars in play money to have some made.. :tongue:


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## maxwell_smart007 (Jul 29, 2011)

Fair warning - any more politics in this thread, and I'll lock it. 

We've been down this road often enough that you should know that politics are not allowed - threads like this are allowed to remain only so long as politics are avoided. 

I've deleted the posts that violate the politics rule, so please avoid discussing politics in this (and all) threads.  

Andrew
assistant moderator


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## Texatdurango (Jul 29, 2011)

I'm sorry but I can't help but wonder how many here would really pay more for their kits just because they were made in the USA.   Saying and doing are two different things.

The reason I ask is that I just did a little group buy where we got 25% off the price of kits PLUS an additional 13% on top of that so for an example a $10 kit became $6.50. That was a real 35% reduction and yet as folks were signing up for the buy I got a message from one member asking....."Was that was the best they could do?"  He didn't sign up, I guess he thought the prices were too steep!

Once we got things rolling and I was sending out amounts due one participant sent a message saying I had made an error.  Seems that when you apply 13% to the entire order rather than 13% on each kit then adding things up you get a different price depending on whether you round up or down and in their order the difference was 83 cents and they thought it worthy of sending a message!

Using those two examples, I can only image a similar situation where we *ADDED* 35% or more because we were dealing with a MADE IN USA company. I seriously doubt there would have been as many participants!

Sitting all the regulations and stiff tooling costs aside, I just don't see it ever happening because their simply wouldn't be a market.


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## workinforwood (Jul 29, 2011)

NewLondon88 said:


> Leviblue said:
> 
> 
> > .
> ...



lol


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## marksman (Jul 30, 2011)

Great discussion. One thing that has not been mentioned throughout this entire post is the ability to maintain a stricter quality control on parts that are manufactured here in the US. Maybe that can be done while manufacturing overseas by hiring a local product manager, but I believe that manufacturing in your own shop and having suppliers that are a day away is much better quality control than flying to China once every month or so. Just wanted to add that in.


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## sbell111 (Jul 31, 2011)

QC is determined by procedures implemented, not country.  A company that exports it's manufacturing would not necessarily change any of it's QC processes.


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## marksman (Jul 31, 2011)

Exactly, thanks for pointing that out.


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## TellicoTurning (Jul 31, 2011)

LeeR said:


> My wife and I have driven imports as well as domestics (I drive a VW GTI, she drives a 1999 Caravan), but I am ready to give my auto $ all to Detroit the next time. Besides the very relaible Caravan, we also had a 2001 PT Cruiser, a really good car (gave it to my daughter when she graduated from college.) I've never driven Fords, but seriously considering a new Explorer. I hate to see ALL manufacturing leave this country. Some is inevitable, some will never come back, however, some can be saved.
> 
> Just my $.03 (adjusted due to federal bloat and excess).



Be careful with the Explorer... while I loved mine .. we had it on a lease and at the end of the lease it was worth only about 1/2 the residual value... also Yahoo just had an article that Explorer was one of the used cars to avoid.... I don't know the full story behind their evaluation, but that was the story... all that said, I drive a 1991 Ford Ranger pickup... it's not the best looking truck in the lot, it took a bump in the rear end that drove it into the rear of another car a year before I bought it, so the front bumper has a slight bend on the driver's side and so does the front fender... otherwise it runs like a champ and has since I got it.  If I put about a grand into it to fix the bumper, fender, driver's door lock, tail gate release latch, pull the gas tank and put a new send/receiver unit to determine the gas level in the tank, fix the small transmission leak and try to figure where the little oil drip is in the engine, put a new radio in (the one I have works, but sometimes if you hit a bump the volume will sky rocket or will drop below human hearing level) and here of late, I have a heat shield over the exhaust manifold that rattles.... (LOML thinks we look and sound like the Beverly Hillbillies as we traverse the back roads of Tennessee)... I would have an almost new 20 year old truck with only 158K + miles on it. :laugh::laugh:


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## NorCali (Apr 7, 2012)

My first post in IAP 

  I am new to pen making. The first thing I decided was to find the best quality pen kits possible made in the USA. I ran a couple of internet searches and still have not found a USA supplier. Eventually today yet another search found this thread.
  I would settle for another nation with Environmental and Humane practices in place as well. Paying more for that would be a price I would have to pay.
  Back in the day I was doing QA for a diode manufacturer in the good old Silicone Valley. One of my jobs was to apply gold plating the the leads as the final step in manufacturing. Extremely dangerous as the fumes from the plating process are lethal to humans. I was not very good at it but it was done on a special ~4x8 bench with hood. The batches were thousands at a time in small baths built into the bench. This is why I believe that manufacturing pen kits in the USA could be done in a small office/workshop without a huge cost.  

Quality being the same:
USA = Better for the environment and humanity!

  Cost is the side effect of all the EPA and OSHA regulations, but if you support cleaner air and water you would pay the difference.

  Like most people of the USA I have fallen into the trap of searching for the best price given same or better quality. This obviously takes us offshore as many other nations have no or limited regulations restricting companies from dumping hazardous materials, or maintaining human safety.

 -RichW


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## khallpens (Apr 7, 2012)

not all ways the truth find markman here on iap he has his own line of pen kits made here in the USA.


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## WWAtty (Apr 7, 2012)

All the USA pride and good intentions aside, I think any effort to manufacture pen kits here would quickly become mired in regulatory problems.  In my engineering days ('90s), the electronics mfr. I worked for considered etching its own circuit boards.  The company's goal was to rein in the long lead times of overseas board mfrs. by making them stateside.  However, after discovering the almost insurmountable EPA and OSHA regulations surrounding the use and disposal of various chemicals and copper salts, we gave up the idea and continued off-shoring them like most everyone else in the industry.

Pen kits, with the different platings and metals involved, would no doubt face great regulatory scrutiny as well.  Just the disposal of heavy metal byproducts, acids and other chemicals would likely be an EPA nightmare.  Add employees and you have OSHA coming into the mix.

However, a small craftsman operation, making unique, handmade hardware, could be viable.  Perhaps a skilled silversmith, jeweler or the like.  The cost would be through the roof, of course.  But think of the beautiful, one-of-a-kind hardware that could come out of such an operation.  The mechanisms would probably have to be the usual off-the-shelf components, but the caps, clips, bands, etc. could certainly be custom.


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## Smitty37 (Apr 7, 2012)

WWAtty said:


> All the USA pride and good intentions aside, I think any effort to manufacture pen kits here would quickly become mired in regulatory problems. In my engineering days ('90s), the electronics mfr. I worked for considered etching its own circuit boards. The company's goal was to rein in the long lead times of overseas board mfrs. by making them stateside. However, after discovering the almost insurmountable EPA and OSHA regulations surrounding the use and disposal of various chemicals and copper salts, we gave up the idea and continued off-shoring them like most everyone else in the industry.
> 
> Pen kits, with the different platings and metals involved, would no doubt face great regulatory scrutiny as well. Just the disposal of heavy metal byproducts, acids and other chemicals would likely be an EPA nightmare. Add employees and you have OSHA coming into the mix.
> 
> However, a small craftsman operation, making unique, handmade hardware, could be viable. Perhaps a skilled silversmith, jeweler or the like. The cost would be through the roof, of course. But think of the beautiful, one-of-a-kind hardware that could come out of such an operation. The mechanisms would probably have to be the usual off-the-shelf components, but the caps, clips, bands, etc. could certainly be custom.


Stainless Steel now made in the USA are competitive in price with comparable kits are available from a member here.


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## U-Turn (Apr 7, 2012)

Constant and Mark are making a very nice pen - in his shop. HUGE machine. Take a look at Lazerlinez.


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## dogcatcher (Apr 8, 2012)

workinforwood said:


> America still leads the world in manufacturing. China workers are much cheaper but one American worker produces 80% more goods. The reason companies leave is soley due to taxation. This is a global economy and there's no stopping that. We have highest corporate taxes. Business is to make money. Businesses don't pay taxes too in reality that passes on to consumers. So if u make 8 widgets for every 2 from china but u pay 0 tax in China and 40% in usa, you can't compete.



The corporate tax rate in China is 25%, the US is 35%.  Does the song and dance routine about taxes really sound right?  No it is about cheap labor, a few dollars a day compared to a few hundred dollars a day is the issue.


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## Smitty37 (Apr 8, 2012)

dogcatcher said:


> workinforwood said:
> 
> 
> > America still leads the world in manufacturing. China workers are much cheaper but one American worker produces 80% more goods. The reason companies leave is soley due to taxation. This is a global economy and there's no stopping that. We have highest corporate taxes. Business is to make money. Businesses don't pay taxes too in reality that passes on to consumers. So if u make 8 widgets for every 2 from china but u pay 0 tax in China and 40% in usa, you can't compete.
> ...


  You are correct that taxes are not the biggest issue although at 40% higher our world's highest corporate tax rate is a factor..  Actually cheap labor isn't either (there are many countries with lower labor costs than China).  The biggest culpret is, in my opinion, regulation.  Recently the CEO of Intel gave a speech where he said that building a factory in the USA would cost a billion dollars more than building it off shore.  The cause was not the cost of labor but the cost of regulation.  The USA (a.k.a the land of the free) recently surpassed India as the most highly regulated industrial country in the world.  Complying with regulations (EPA/OSHA/LABOR/CLEAN AIR/CLEAN WATER/HAZARDOUS WASTE,ETC.) is far more costly to many manufacturing businesses than corporate taxes. 

By the way, China will surpass the USA in manufacturing sometime this decade and will steadily pull away from us in the next. Europe taken as a whole also now approaches or exceeds US manufacturing although being much smaller - no individual European country approaches us. 

The movement pushing us toward "green" energy will, in my opinion, also result in higher costs and more manufacturing leaving the USA.  We built our nation into the worlds leading manufacturer on low cost energy and a business friendly environment.  Over the course of my lifetime we have been destroying both the result is absolutely predictable.

Companies exist to make a profit, whether they be a Corporate Giant or a Mom & Pop ice cream stand - if the don't make a profit they either go out of business or move their business elsewhere.  In today's world of easy communications and fast shipping that usually means going elsewhere.


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## Ted (Apr 14, 2012)

I am certainly willing to pay more for components made domestically, as I am for everything else that I purchase. It's a matter more of economics than political sensibility, though I do have my loyalties. Having been in one business or another all of my life and having lived through several recessions (and having grown up with my parents' first-hand accounts of living through the world depression of the 1930's), the inescapable conclusion I've reached is that if my customers have no income, they cannot buy my products.

Environmental and labor regulations are not causes, they are effects. They are nothing more than the visible result of deferred amortization of costs inherent to industrial production. We hear a lot of double-speak that "high tech" manufacturing doesn't qualify as industrial production but that's just sophistry and not to be taken seriously. I agree that environmental enforcement actions are often far more heavy-handed than some situations may call for but the lack of toxic material containment back when we were in the early stages of industrialization only deferred the true cost of production until the individuals responsible were no longer available to pay them. We're all paying now for the prosperity of our parents and grandparents.

Asia will pay the same price when their labor force is decimated by health problems resulting from exposure to toxic materials just as ours has been. Economically speaking, their comparative advantage does not lie mainly in taxation or labor but in subsidy and cost deferral- a temporary advantage.

Does anyone here know why Ideal turned their clip production over to International? I don't but I'd be interested to know the story, simply as a study in economics. I won't go into detail about "globalization" because it always gets political at some point but there's nothing political about the basic economic fact that without aggregate income in a target market there can be no marketplace. The current notion of prosperity though "trade" does not depict any sort of sustainable model- the goods we export are no longer primarily daily-use products and do not represent a persistent opportunity for mass employment. 

Anyone here remember what happened with Port Orford cedar back in the 80"s? We allowed the export of logs instead of lumber and where are the mills now? Was our willingness to allow the export of raw materials matched by those of our trading "partners" that possessed a similar level of industrial development? Had any raw material export controls been in place, overharvesting would have been severely limited by processing capacity and value-added sourcing costs. 

I'll end by saying that I would never have purchased my wife's treasured Mont Blanc pens a few years ago if I'd known about the Edison Pen Company or many of the makers that are members here at IAP (now, I suppose, I'd have to stretch my skills and make her daily-use pens myself.) Oh, and also to beg your pardon for the bit of a rant.


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## cwolfs69 (Apr 14, 2012)

skiprat said:
			
		

> Mmmmm.....patriotism is great, but we have to be honest and realist at the same time.
> Whether kits were made in USA ( America is actually a continent not a country :wink or UK or any other 'first world' country, the price would definetely be more than a 'few bucks more'.  As long as people want value for money, then we don't stand a chance of seeing them made here.
> 
> I personally hope they never get made in any first world country as that would mean I'd have to give up the hobby as I couldn't afford it.:wink:
> ...



USA is not a country either. it is a compact between th 50 countries (Virginia, texas, Maine, South Carolina, etc) that make up the USA. The 50 are all soverign, it is not.

Sent from my Galaxi via forerunner


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## TellicoTurning (Apr 14, 2012)

timberbits said:


> Made in the USA? You might find that the question may not mean what you think it really means.
> 
> Made in Australia? might also be a similar question. I have quite a few friends in the high end garment industry which manufactures Made in Australia clothing. The whole shirt is made in Main Land China except the buttons and button holes. According to WTO and Australian law definition only the last 5% needs to be assembled and finished in Australia for the item to be called made in Australia. They sew in the buttons and put on the button holes, give it a wash and iron, then put the "Made in Australia" sticker on it.
> 
> ...



Using this argument and if I remember my customs regulations - remember I've been out of the industry for 6 or 7 years - the regulations say something to the effect that if an article is significantly changed in it's appearance by a process, then that article can be marked as "made in ***"... so if you take a Chinese/Taiwan Pen kit, An Australian wood blank, and so significantly change the looks of the items... it's a made in USA pen... or in Skip's case, "made in UK"....


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## joefyffe (Apr 14, 2012)

Don't worry Steve! If things don't change, soon, we may not be a first world country. Then China can start sending their factories and JOBS to us!! Sarcasm intended. I'd definitely be willing to pay a bit more for home grown components. :wink:



skiprat said:


> Mmmmm.....patriotism is great, but we have to be honest and realist at the same time.
> Whether kits were made in USA ( America is actually a continent not a country :wink or UK or any other 'first world' country, the price would definetely be more than a 'few bucks more'. As long as people want value for money, then we don't stand a chance of seeing them made here.
> 
> I personally hope they never get made in any first world country as that would mean I'd have to give up the hobby as I couldn't afford it.:wink:
> ...


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## Smitty37 (Apr 15, 2012)

There are existing laws regarding how much USA content is required to use Made in USA on the label.  I have not looked into it but I think it is fairly high, but it might vary depending on the product.





TellicoTurning said:


> timberbits said:
> 
> 
> > Made in the USA? You might find that the question may not mean what you think it really means.
> ...


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## Steve Busey (Apr 15, 2012)

U-Turn said:


> Constant and Mark are making a very nice pen - in his shop. HUGE machine. Take a look at Lazerlinez.



I had a chance to go visit Constant's shop last weekend. That *is* one impressive system! And the stainless steel pen kit prototype he showed me has the best feeling click mechanism I've encountered - looking forward to the availability of these kits!




He told me it was OK to post these pics of him at his new machine.


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