# Lathe buffer question (wheel size)



## Firefyter-emt (Jan 16, 2007)

Ok, just working on my on going project to convert that lathe I picked up into a dedicated buffer and I have a question.  

I found what looks like a good deal on e-bay to bid on a set of 3 for $20.00 + $5.00 s/h They are 8" wheels and are int he photo below. Is this the right type of wheel or do I need the "loose" ones??


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## Randy_ (Jan 16, 2007)

I know nil about buffing.  One thing I can tell you is that the Beall 3 On system uses three different composition wheels.  The Tripoli wheel is linen, the WD wheel is cotton and linen and the Carnauba wax wheel is all-cotton flannel.  Someone else will have to opine on this combination of wheels vs some other.


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## aksarben (Jan 17, 2007)

Not sure which ones you what for what compound either.

But, I do know that Grizzly has a great selection of types sizes and options. 

http://grizzly.com/products/category.aspx?key=100020

Scott


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## bradh (Jan 17, 2007)

I have been searching the net for the same info. Found this site:
http://www.schaffnermfg.com/buffingwheel-types.html
It seems that the loose ones are better for complex shapes and the ones like you have are better for simpler shapes. Acording to that info, those should be good for buffing pens unless you do complex bead shapes.
Brad


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## Firefyter-emt (Jan 17, 2007)

I have two 8" loose buff wheels on my 3500 rpm grinder now, and I have to tell you, that dang thing can grab a part and throw it like no tommorow!


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## wood-of-1kind (Jan 17, 2007)

> _Originally posted by Firefyter-emt_
> <br />I have two 8" loose buff wheels on my 3500 rpm grinder now, and I have to tell you, that dang thing can grab a part and throw it like no tommorow!



3500 RPM is much too fast for pen buffing. You must be careful that you will not destroy the surface of the wood if you are applying too much pressure with the spinning wheels. A better RPM should be around 1800 or slightly lower JMO.

-Peter-[]


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## Mikey (Jan 17, 2007)

I started out with the sewn ones like pictured. I have since went with the loose ones. I can honestly say that even for pens, the loose ones work much better. They conform to the part slightly better, and to be honest, when spinning at 1,800 RPM, they really aren't all that loose anyway. Plus, if you do anything else like stoppers or the like, the loose ones are a must.


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## Skye (Jan 17, 2007)

Who made a buffing system from paint rollers?


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## wood-of-1kind (Jan 17, 2007)

> _Originally posted by Skye_
> <br />Who made a buffing system from paint rollers?



BTBOONE(BRUCE) has the parts. Try him.

-Peter-


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## bradh (Jan 17, 2007)

> _Originally posted by wood-of-1kind_
> <br />
> 
> 
> ...



Most of the info I have found recommends buffing between 3600 and 7500 SFM (surface feet per minute). The formula is:
RPM x Diameter of the Buff Wheel / 3.82
For 3600 RPM x 8" wheel / 3.82 is 7539; a little above the top speed recommended.
switching to a 6" wheel drops the result to 5650 SFM,
1800 RPM with a 8" wheel gives 3770 SFM.
Brad


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## wood-of-1kind (Jan 17, 2007)

wood is 'soft'    steel is 'hard' . Err on the cautious side and don't buff above 1800 RPM.
Be careful when formulating based on 'surface' area. 

-Peter-


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## btboone (Jan 17, 2007)

I agree with Brad.  Just use a 6" wheel and it works fine.  That's what I do for pens on my 3600 rpm polisher.


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## Firefyter-emt (Jan 17, 2007)

I should of mentioned that I do not use the grinder for pens. I use that for buffing metal. []
I think I am going to go with the 6" wheels as they will fit the buffer and not overload it as much.  It may of been lost in this post, but my plans are for a dedicated buffing system on a small 8" x 24" lathe I picked up. I am replacing the original 5/8" mandrel rod to a one piece mandrel / buffing arbor. I will sit down with a speed calculator and see where I will be on the 3 pulley steps vs the outside wheel speed.


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## btboone (Jan 18, 2007)

Skye, I still have a bunch of the plastic mandrels for use with the paint rollers.  Here's a link: www.boonerings.com/htmpages/buffmandrels.htm


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## Fred in NC (Jan 18, 2007)

Hehe!  I was the one who made the original paint roller setup. Bruce kindly agreed to make them out of plastic, and make them available.  Thanks Bruce !!!


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## btboone (Jan 18, 2007)

Hi Fred, I haven't seen you around in a while!  Hope you are doing well.


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## keithz (Jan 18, 2007)

I converted my Beall 3 on-lathe system to be able to screw it into the MT2 holder for their bowl buffs.  It works much better this way.

IMHO, the wheels you got are suited for tripoli and maybe white diamond, but not for wax.  I would get a loose cotton wheel for wax.

BTW, I buff on the lathe at about 1200 rpm.

keithz


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## Randy_ (Jan 18, 2007)

Not sure I fully understand what you did or the advantage of doing so?  Perhaps a picture of the setup would help or a more detailed explanation of what you have done and why.  Thanks.


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## Blind_Squirrel (Jan 18, 2007)

Beall recommends a speed of 1750 rpm. with their system.


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## Firefyter-emt (Jan 18, 2007)

Randy, I am not sure if you are talking to me, but here is the deal...

I picked up a very cheap lathe, it's a 8" x 24" lathe and not suited for real lathe use because it is set up like a shop smith with a 5/8" headstock and a d-shaft. Without a morse taper and the lack of threads on it I decided to refurb it and turn it into a dedicated buffer. The headstock is designed with bronze sleeve bearings, and a thrust bearing that is press against the headstock with a simple set screw lock collar. If I remove the original mandrel I can replace it with a long piece of 5/8" rod. The other end will be held in the tailstock after I drill a divot in the end of the rod to keep it secure. If I build the entire buffing wheel set up based on this 5/8" shaft I am "kinda" using the cheap lathe like a big old set of pillow blocks. [] The nice things is that if I want to convert this back to a lathe all I need to do is reinstall the original mandrel.

That a bit clearer?

I have not bought any wheels yet, I was asking originaly if that set would be a good buy. Apparently it is not the best way to go.


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## Randy_ (Jan 18, 2007)

Lee: Sorry, Lee.  I was really referring to Keith's comments about hooking up his Beall mandrel to the bowl buffing arbor.

However, I am wondering about something with your project.  You have said the mandrel will be held "IN" the tailstock.  I assume that the mandrel will be secured by a live center "held in the tailstock"; but the pillow block comment makes me think the mandel might be s[pinning in the tailstock and don't see how that is possible since the would be no bearing in the tailstock.  Maybe I'm being too picky about the language; but am just a hair uncertain about your set-up?  Help me out.  Thanks.


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## Firefyter-emt (Jan 19, 2007)

I am still working on that end. I "could" just use it like a metal lathe and dead center with some oil at the tailstock. However, I hope to find a 1/4" bearing (OD) that I can fit into the end of the rod. If I do that, then I can bring that dead center tight into the center of the bearing. However, there is a much greater chance to have the hole off a little and give it a wobbble. If I go this route, I will leave enough rod sticking out to allow me to cut it down and go the oil route. It's not like it will run for hours on end, so it should hold up well enough.

When I said "held in" this crazy design, uses the tailstock preasure to push the lock collar against a thrust washer to keep the mandrel in one place in the headstock!! Nice job there Sears!!


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## Randy_ (Jan 19, 2007)

Hey Lee:

Another thought or two.  Concerning wheels, the wheels you first asked about were 8" wheels and you say you have an 8" lathe.  So unless there is a little slop in one or both of those measurements, the wheels may rub on the ways and pick up metal that you would not want on your pen blanks.

Given that an 8" wheel would fit your machine, I see that PSI has replacement wheels for their system and they have the same composition variation as the Beall system: linen for the Tripoli, 50/50 for the WD buff and all cotton for the Carnauba wheel.  I have no way to compare quality; but the PSI wheels are 10 bucks apiece and the Beall wheels are $14.75 Â± a quarter. 

And finally, I have a pretty good eye for mechanical things.  If you could post a nice close-up of your tailstock, I might come up with a suggestion or two for your mounting problem at that end.


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## Pipes (Jan 19, 2007)

> _Originally posted by Firefyter-emt_
> <br />Ok, just working on my on going project to convert that lathe I picked up into a dedicated buffer and I have a question.
> 
> I found what looks like a good deal on e-bay to bid on a set of 3 for $20.00 + $5.00 s/h They are 8" wheels and are int he photo below. Is this the right type of wheel or do I need the "loose" ones??


I prefer wheels thare sewed once ! Why because those wear as all do and when you hit that nylon string it is sewed with  it WILL ruin what ever your buffing when you hit it and sooner or later you will ... just a thought ! But I would guess I buff more than most as I wear out 10 to 20 wheels a yr or more !!


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## Randy_ (Jan 19, 2007)

> _Originally posted by Pipes_
> <br />
> 
> 
> ...


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## Firefyter-emt (Jan 19, 2007)

Randy, this is what the tailstock looks like.. I can hold the rod in my wood lathe and I have those little metal lathe center drills I could use to make the start hole perfect. I fugure if I started it like that, I might be able to drill a recess to press a small bearing into.  Even with that, I might have to modify the tailstock itself to fit the bearing. I could toss this whole lathe in the trash and not feel bat, it's old, but cheap.

Here is the lathe itself.





and this is the tailstock end.


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## Randy_ (Jan 20, 2007)

Thanks.  I have an idea; but want to think about it for a day or so.


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## Firefyter-emt (Jan 20, 2007)

No problem. Just so you know, that tailstock cup center is the threadded feed portion as well. Very bad design so I can not exactly change it out eaisly. My other thought was to drill & tap the end of a live center and press it into the hole while sucking it in tight from the other side with a threadded rod or bolt. Once it is in place I don't plan to move it, however, I may buy extra wheels for metal buffing. What I want to be able to do is slip a spacer over the end of the mandrel shaft and use the tailstock to tension all the wheels and lock it in place with a lock collar. Then the sleeve is removed and the tailstock is tightened into the mandrel. Two things to keep in mind is that the tailstock places the tension on the thrust bearing to keep the headstock in place and I can not change the tailstock eaisly. I can put the tailstock in my metal lathe and turn off some of the end to make it fit into the bearing better though.

Let me know your thoughts, I have only gotten as far as taking the lathe fully apart and bagging the parts for the refurb.


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## RussFairfield (Jan 20, 2007)

<br />

Here is a photo of the paint-roller buffer. You can't beat the price - about $9 for a long nap lambs wool roller at Home Depot. It works, and it neither as aggressive nor as hard as the commerciat buffers, and it is really difficult to get it overloaded with buffing compounds or wax.  

I put down 4 bands - Tripoli, White Diamond, wax, and leave the tailstock end bare for just polishing.

I turned the end pieces, and made the drive end so it would work in either a chuck or between centers, or you can order the plastic inserts from Bruce. I prefer wood because I can glue them into the roller with a silicone adhesive so I can't lose them, but that is a personal preference. 

Hey Fred. Good to see you back.


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## Randy_ (Jan 20, 2007)

Lee:  Most folks don't have a metal lathe in their shop so you sound like a more serious tool junkie than most.  Do you have welder in your tool inventory by any chance?


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## Randy_ (Jan 20, 2007)

I have another iteration of the paint roller buffer mandrel.  It is a little bit different than the original by Fred or the ones by Bruce and Russ. My camera batteries are dead so pictures will have to wait until they finish their visit to the charger.


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## Firefyter-emt (Jan 20, 2007)

> _Originally posted by Randy__
> <br />Lee:  Most folks don't have a metal lathe in their shop so you sound like a more serious tool junkie than most.  Do you have welder in your tool inventory by any chance?



Ummm, ya... I'm guilty there too! This is my little MIG welder. And being a cheap yankee, yes I got it free!  Seems as though the prior owner "broke it" and could not make it work. Well, after a quick multi-meter checking and a trip to Radio Shack for a $2.95 switch, it's like new!


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## Fangar (Jan 20, 2007)

6" wheels for me.  I get them at Lowe's for about 3.50 each.

Fangar


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## Randy_ (Jan 24, 2007)

OK, Lee.  Obviously you have some skills and tools that the average hobbyist doesn't.  That being the case, maybe what you are thinking is the best way to go??  

Two ideas that occurred to me might be worth looking at.  The first is exceedingly simple; but I have no idea whether or not it will work. In the old days, turners used dead centers like yours and just lubricated the bearing surface with a little bear fat.....no fooling.....absolute truth.  Get a 1" Â± square block of hard wood an inch or two long and drill a hole in it the diameter of your mandrel shaft.  Glue it to the end of your mandrel, lubricate it with some good grease and spin away.

Second idea is a little more involved; but still fairly simple.  The basic thought is to build a new tailstock for your lathe with some sort of bearing to support the end of the mandrel and leave the original TS alone.  You could build the new TS from some hardwood or weld up some scrap steel.  The bearing could be a standard roller bearing that would slip on the end of your mandrel and fit in an appropriately sized and located recess in your new tailstock.  The other thing you might do is some version of your pillow-block idea and mount one of the appropriate size on a new tailstock.  Not sure any of this will work out; but, at least, it will give you something a little bit different to think about.


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## Firefyter-emt (Jan 24, 2007)

Yes, the thought has crossed my mind about just keeping the dead center oiled, but I was thinking a metal to metal joint with a dimple centered on the 5/8" rod. I really want to keep the original tailstock. If I go changing that much of the look, I may as well just pillow block both ends and make it simple. What I need to look for is a bearing with a 1/4" OD to install into the end of the 5/8" rod. If I can find that, all I need is a 1/4" hole in the end to slip the bearing into and the dead center can ride on the cetner section. I might need to drill & tap for a set screw to hold the bearing though. I am thinking about looking at replacement router bit bearings right now. As long as I can fit the bearing into the end of the rod, I can "fill" the center hole with a shoulderd dowel that the dead center can mate to. This might just work out well! []

Gotta sandblast it first! LOL []


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## bnoles (Jan 24, 2007)

Just one question, Lee........

When do you sleep?  [][]


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## bradh (Jan 24, 2007)

I am building a bearing holder for my tailstock. I created a blank by gluing a dowel rod into a block of hardwood. I started turning a morse taper from the dowel end. I then plan to mount the blank on the taper and turn the pocket side. I plan on using some surplus bearings I have and mount them in the pocket. At this point I am not sure if I can glue the bearing in or if I will need plywood with a hole for the shaft to cover the bearing and hold it in place. See the cross section sketch.
Brad Harding.




<br />


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## Pipes (Jan 24, 2007)

> _Originally posted by Randy__
> <br />
> 
> 
> ...


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## Firefyter-emt (Jan 24, 2007)

> _Originally posted by bnoles_
> <br />Just one question, Lee........
> 
> When do you sleep?  [][]



Bob, you may of noticed I am not a morning person.. I pretty much just got out of bed a little bit ago. []


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## Randy_ (Jan 24, 2007)

> _Originally posted by Randy__
> <br />I have another iteration of the paint roller buffer mandrel.  It is a little bit different than the original by Fred or the ones by Bruce and Russ. My camera batteries are dead so pictures will have to wait until they finish their visit to the charger.




Rather than post here and have the pictures buried in this thread, I am going to start a new thread that can devote itself solely to paint roller buffers.

http://www.penturners.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=21353


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## keithz (Jan 24, 2007)

Randy,

You sent me an email asking for more detail about my conversion of the Beall 3-in-one to individual wheels, and for my reasons.  I have written a quick article with photos about the process on my club's website.  Check the link below.  

My reasons for making this change is that I hated the Beall system after I got it, mainly because the wheels are too close together and I kept buffing the back of my hands while trying to buff objects.  Being as close together, I found it impossible to buff anything larger than 4-6" in diameter and completely impossible to buff the inside of any size bowl.  It was so bad that I shoved it into the closet and started looking for something else I could use on my lathe.  I found the Don Pencil system and thought it was what wanted.  What I didn't want was to spend that much money.  I thought about it for a while and decided to try to convert my Beall system since I already had spent themoney for it.  I also had tried the Beall 2" bowl buff system and found they were too small.  The best thing about the bowl buffs was the MT2 chuck they mounted into.

After the conversion, I reall like my buffing system.  What it essentially is, is the original Beall system.  I just didn't buy it that way. 

Check out my article for photos. (hope the link works, this is the first time I have included a link in a response)

Keith

http://www.centralillinoiswoodturners.com/keithz/beall.html


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## Randy_ (Jan 24, 2007)

Keith:

Good job!!  All of my questions are answered and now I fully understand what you are doing.  The Beall system is very nice for doing pens; but I totally sympathize with your frustration trying to use it on larger projects.

If you still have the original mandrel and hardware, I'll bet there is a pen turner out there who would be willing to offer a few dollars for it.

Thanks for the explanation.


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## Randy_ (Jan 24, 2007)

> _Originally posted by Firefyter-emt_
> <br />.....However, I hope to find a 1/4" bearing (OD) that I can fit into the end of the rod......



Lee:  I found a source for small bearings like you wanted.  They are used in RC cars.  I was going to do a copy/paste on the web addy and email it to you; but lost it somehow.  I'll go back and look for it again if you are still in need of a source for a small bearing.


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## keithz (Jan 25, 2007)

Randy,
I kept everything.  I always keep everything...just in case.  I think it's the artist im me. []

BTW, I changed the URL from above.  The new one is:
http://www.centralillinoiswoodturners.com/tips/Beall Conversion.pdf

Happy turning.

keithz


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