# postable caps



## pipeyeti (Mar 9, 2008)

I have been working on closed end pens for a while now. My biggest complaint from consumers and the pen shop owner that retails my pens, is that they will not buy a pen that will not post the cap. I am working on a shape that is similar to the churchill postable end but all one piece. Just thought I would put this out there for everyone headed down the "kitless" path to keep in mind that if you want to sell you have a better chance of moving product with postable caps.


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## aurrida (Mar 9, 2008)

thanks larry, i can feel another headache coming on [|)]


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## pipeyeti (Mar 9, 2008)

sorry LOL[]


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## DKF (Mar 9, 2008)

I am in the same boat....The first thing my wife did with my first closed end was try to post the cap.  I believe that if you taper the closed end correctly, you may be able to get the right friction fit....whether or not the taper looks "right" will be left to experimentation.


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## Ligget (Mar 9, 2008)

Give them a free rubber band with every closed end, helps keep the two pieces together! lol[)]


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## ed4copies (Mar 9, 2008)

Several engineering problems here.

FIRST the cap, if it has a tube, will leave marks in the end of your pen, when "posted".

SO, you eliminate the brass tube, so the mark is eliminated, then you have a cap that is subject to the tensions of "posting" and is likely to crack.

So, you have to design an "outside ring" to go around the exterior of the cap and it looks like spit.

Good luck and yes, I have tried it.  No, I don't have a good answer.


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## pipeyeti (Mar 9, 2008)

yes Ed I will eliminate the tube. In that case you are correct in saying that I will need to reinforce the cap with a band, easy enough. But with some kits such as the churchill the treads in the cap are made of a relatively soft plastic( I think its delrin) so most of the plastics I'm using for the body will be stronger than the threads so that the body will not scratch. At least thats my theory, we will see. I'm working on it this afternoon as soon as my last order of cigars is completed.


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## pipeyeti (Mar 9, 2008)

By the way I am capable of making a band that don't look like spit. Many pipe makers have to fabricate bands for pipes. Thats why I have a metal lathe.


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## ed4copies (Mar 9, 2008)

Very few things are impossible.

These are the challenges I met and the reasons I stopped trying - I don't have a metal lathe and I was unimpressed with my results.  AND a bunch of new designs came out (Churchill among them) that looked "less offensive" than the old gold tip.


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## pipeyeti (Mar 9, 2008)

Its done and worked great. It still needs a little refining. I left my camera at work yesterday. I will get some pictures tomorow.


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## RussFairfield (Mar 9, 2008)

I went back and re-read my message and I can't understand what I said either.


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## Aderhammer (Mar 9, 2008)

I haven't done shows yet, but when I do i'm going to keep a postable cap pen there and  non postable ones and have them feel the difference between cap or no cap on the end, the cap on the end is just bulky and awkward(it's probably the same on a parker, motblanc, pelikan etc.)


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## pipeyeti (Mar 9, 2008)

Honestly my bringing up the topic was for the guys looking to make kitless pens. By all means make what you are comfortable with and sell what your clients ask for. Not sure if your #3 was aimed at me but if it was you got it wrong. I have no problems with kits I like them just fine, heck I am selling a bunch of them. I am heading down a path that will add a pen that is made by me not from a kit.


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## Texatdurango (Mar 9, 2008)

Something to consider when doing custom work is that you can create a cap that weighs a fraction of what it's kit cousin weighs which has a brass tube, metal end cap and metal and delrin threaded centerband parts.  My latest pen is acrylic, uses no brass tubes and the cap itself is threaded so the only metal on the cap are a clip and a silver centerband.  When posted, you hardly know it's there.

Just another opinion.

As far as marring the pen when posting a cap, I've been carrying around a prototype for over a month now and post it whenever I use it and the plastic to plastic friction fit has yet to leave a mark.


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## pipeyeti (Mar 9, 2008)

thank you Tex.


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## ed4copies (Mar 10, 2008)

George, 

I am curious about that statement "plastic to plastic friction fit has yet to leave a mark".  We take great pains to buff, shine, polish our plastic.  Then, you make a cap which has internal threads, and push it down over this highly shined plastic - where does the "friction fit" find the friction?

The weight of the cap is holding it on, over whatever portion of the pen is small enough in diameter.  While this is certainly possible (and I don't douby YOU have done it) there is not a lot of room for error.  You may want to make public the LENGTH that your outside diameter fits inside the cap.

Seems to me this dimension has a "critical minimum" to keep the cap in place.  IF, in fact, one attempts to push the cap on far enough for a true "friction fit", I would expect the cap to crack VERY soon, based on my past experience with "acrylic" blanks.

Just a FWIW.


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## aurrida (Mar 10, 2008)

back to the subject


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## gerryr (Mar 10, 2008)

There is also an additional problem that nobody has mentioned and that is if you use the threaded part from a Churchill or El Grande cap, it is not as hard as the acrylic.  Ultimately, the friction fit will deform the threads and the cap will no longer screw on without considerable effort, and since the nib coupler is also plastic, additional stress is introduced to this already not very strong but important component.

I have actually encountered only customer who has insisted on always being able to post the cap.  I made one closed end Churchill that was postable and it was not attractive.  That was my only attempt at making a closed end postable pen.  I make closed end pens that are about 1/4"-1/2" longer than if I used all the kit parts and have not had difficulty selling them.  I also sell a fair number of Gentleman and Statesman pens which certainly aren't postable and customers don't complain.  I have several Jr. Statesman kits with the threaded end cap and after making one and trying it out, the rest will be made into closed end pens because the threaded end cap is quite uncomfortable.


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## pipeyeti (Mar 10, 2008)

As for deforming the threads on the cap, the churchill design uses those threads pushed over a black powdercoated piece of brass. If the brass doesn't damage the threads, why would a piece of plastic that is made to the same size and shape of the original brass portion do damage?


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## pipeyeti (Mar 10, 2008)

> _Originally posted by ed4copies_
> 
> George,
> 
> ...



As soon as I get to the shop I will get a pick posted. I thought about the problem of sliding the cap on too far and doing damage. My solution, just as it is on the churchill is to put a stop so the cap will only go so far. I did it by putting a bead on the pen body in the same location as the stop on the churchill.


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## aurrida (Mar 10, 2008)

does brian of pencraft post his pens? 

got it, steel tube in cap, magnet in end of pen. what do you think .


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## jackrichington (Mar 10, 2008)

Well, fellas..how about this..we keep this topic running and the importers of the kits think they can improve the kit...like what if the nib end half were longer???  keeps the threads away from thumb/finger area...I've always hated how short the writing ends were, once the cap end off..look silly...How about the top metal parts weigh less?? Posting then wouldn't be so ungainly...these issues could all be done at the importer end...those of us without metal lathes would appreciate improvements a little speedier


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## gerryr (Mar 10, 2008)

> _Originally posted by pipeyeti_
> 
> As for deforming the threads on the cap, the churchill design uses those threads pushed over a black powdercoated piece of brass. If the brass doesn't damage the threads, why would a piece of plastic that is made to the same size and shape of the original brass portion do damage?



I never said posting the Churchill cap on a straight kit wouldn't eventually damage the threads.


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## pipeyeti (Mar 10, 2008)

here are a few pictures. sorry about the quality but i'm at work with a hand held camera and no lighting. This one shows the cap posted.


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## pipeyeti (Mar 10, 2008)




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## pipeyeti (Mar 10, 2008)




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## pipeyeti (Mar 10, 2008)

In the future models I will make the body shorter. My intent was to leave myself room to screw up on this one. It came out a little long.


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## pipeyeti (Mar 10, 2008)

> _Originally posted by gerryr_
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Then what was your point? I have noticed that all of the people who don't like the idea say that thier customers don't care. Ok so don't make postable caps. I thought the whole point of this new catagoy was to explore and try new things and share the results. so far with a few exceptions all I've seen is guys saying why do I need to change? The answer is don't. But why argue about it? dosen't make sense.


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## bjackman (Mar 10, 2008)

Larry,
Interesting soloution, thanks for posting your photos showing your posting end treatment.
An EG I made postable (sorry for the poor photo quality on this one it was just a quick and dirty photo before the pen went out the door).
http://www.penturners.org/oldalbums/bjackman/blue maple sm.jpg 

And this is it posted:  
http://www.penturners.org/oldalbums/bjackman/blue maple posted xsm.jpg 

Yes, many true pen fanatics expect the pen to post whether they actually typically post them or not. Some post and some don't, seems something of a personal preference which even varies from pen to pen with the same user. 
As Russ said, our typical kit pen while technically able to post, due to the weight of the cap/components, I think, it's not really a functional posting use for most users, other than to maybe keep track of the cap while they sign a check at the grocery store.
So, after all that, on to my actual main point.
In discussions I have had, both in person and online, most true fountain pen users/fanatics, (I define this as someone who owns more than one fountain pen, possibly many, and uses them regularly, daily or in some sort of rotation).
This user is usually familar with both vintage and modern pens and understands that to use a pen makes it "non-pristine". They fully understand that the choice to post a pen is also the choice to show some signs of that action. Maybe not the first time they post it, maybe not for the first week, but eventually, posting WILL show on the pen. Some choose not to post for this very reason. 
With that mindset in place, I felt comfortable making the pen in the link above with it's new owner fully aware that it had been designed and made so that it could and would functionally post, but that doing so WOULD eventually show on the finish. 
I think your design and choice of materials are a good choice to help minimize signs of posting and contain it in a spot that makes it look like it was made for it.
If I might try to clarify what I think Russ may have been trying to say, that same fountain pen user who until now only considered brand name pens as worthy of his/her attention but was pursuaded to give our "eye candy" a try would very likely be turned off all future consideration of any kit type or based pen being a "serious" pen worthy of extended ownership and use. All of our pens would then be relegated to the same category of something that is beautiful to look at, but not fully functional. 
A recent thread showing this very mindset can be seen here:
http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=56006 
The very first posted response is telling. They are looking for something that first functions flawlessly and form/style is nice but a secondary consideration.


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## scubaman (Mar 10, 2008)

A couple of thought on this topic if I may

On deforming threads:  Irrespective of metal or plastic...  I've used El Grandes for years, posting, with no deterioration.  Remember every time you close the pen you tend to restore the threads, right?  At least I think this may contribute to the longevity of the threads.

On whether customers care about posting or not:  It *REALLY* depends on where you sell!  Customers at craft shows have completely different values than customers at a fountain pen show.  Even so, even at fountain pen shows, I do sell a lot of heavy, non-posting pens.  Pens I could never use, but as long as folks buy them...  There is no right or wrong, important ot unimportant.  You'll *ALWAYS* have some customers that care about certain issues (including postability) strongly, and there is not a single right pen.  Long live diversity!

I have made posting pens along the lines shown here, and don't right now.  I simply am not thrilled with the look.  This is my opinion, not necessarily any customer's   I really don't like the stepped main barrel.  I really find it less objectionable when there is a material change, or an offsetting band.  I also have a beef with poorly fitting posted caps, as in the El Grande or Churchill.  It looks to me like PSI got that right with thier new Olympian - the cap posts very nicely.  So, if you want to make this sort of posting cap, it is REALLY important to get the dimensions of that main tube end just right so the posted cap looks integrated.  I cannot tell from the photos above whether you achieved that, and can achieve it consistently.  Maybe it is not something you care about strongly, and that's OK with me 

The best posting caps IMO are on commercial pens like Pelikan.  Or Montblanc I suppose.  It simply fits right!  The friction fit is effortless, and the holding power very good.  Because of a large overlap it does not need as much friction.  It's completely different type of fit from what you are trying to achieve, duplicating El Grande or Churchill.  I am not trying to persuade you to pursue something different, but if a great posting cap is your goal, check these out.  The problem we have with these kit designs is that the total thickness cap threads plus plastic plus brass tube plus outer material is quite substantial.  On a Pelikan, the cap is very thin.  There is more overlap to the body.  So the overall posted pen is shorter and IMO better balanced.  The reason I am pointing this out is that a lot of people seem to be interested in cutting their own multi-lead threads suddenly, and that is a key ingredient in getting such a fit.  BTW...  you don't need the multi-lead taps to experiment on such designs.  You can get a 1/2"x32TPI tap and die as stock parts from an industrial supply house (like MSC) for around $30-40 combined...  Anyway, I hope some folks go down that path, lots of potential for great pens there!  All kit pens have the threads at the cap opening.  Pushing the threads further up in the cap opens up lots more possibilities!

While I am musing about postable caps, the issue of threaded posting comes to mind.  Like the Baron.  Again because of the wall thickness of the cap there is a huge step.  But, additionally, the clip often ends up in the wrong position...  with a multi-start thread, the clip often ends up in a position that interferes with the writer's hand.  So, a shorter single-start thread may be a good answer to this issue.  A decent friction fit does not have these issues.  You do have to worry about the contact point though...  if it is the rim of the cap, you *WILL* split the cap sooner or later.  This is why a lot of pens incorporate a metal band there to absorb the stress.  Another challenge 

Just some food for thought.  Glad to see people interested in this!


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## pipeyeti (Mar 10, 2008)

thanks Bill. I also understand as do most who want a pen that posts that it will eventually leave a mark. The weight issue should not be an issue when i get my 3 start tap and eliminate the brass tube and finial. I think its going to work.


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## jackrichington (Mar 11, 2008)

Ok last stupid thought of the night..why one or the other?  Why not both in one...Have manufacturer thread all the ends, and then also supply a cap that threads on those threads??  Postable and non-postable , all in one...customer then can do either


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## Texatdurango (Mar 12, 2008)

I just posted a photo in this forum of a pen I made today.  Its cap can be posted.  I think the term "Friction fit" I used the other day was inaccurate since the cap is simply slid onto the barrel.

When in California during the Christmas season I visited a local pen shop, been around since 1921 and was an amazing place to visit.  I looked at pens that were easily 70 years old which had their caps posted over the years and you could hardly see any marks.  

I think some here are taking liberty with their exaggerations about the possible damage to the pens.


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## scubaman (Mar 12, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Texatdurango_
> 
> When in California during the Christmas season I visited a local pen shop, been around since 1921 and was an amazing place to visit.  I looked at pens that were easily 70 years old which had their caps posted over the years and you could hardly see any marks.
> 
> I think some here are taking liberty with their exaggerations about the possible damage to the pens.



You preobably need to take into account the fit or contact area.  Most of the pens you saw had more of an interference fit, I bet, diameters very close, and not a single-rim contact.  Often there's an internal sleeve within the cap also.  If you get a chance to go to a fountain pen show, look through some of the boxes of junkers in need of serious repair.  Get a handful where you like the cap fit and saw them open.

One more comment:  Even same materials (therefore same hardness) will eventually leave marks.  Just dust and tiny particles getting rubber in.

If you look at something like a Parker Duofold, the lower part of the cap just overlaps but I am rather sure clears the barrel.  The friction fit is over a very short extension, there is hardly any taper.  Needs good control!  But the alignment is provided by a much longer section.  Compare that to an El Grande type of fit, where you really have to push on hard, there is no alignment - the only contact is the very ring of the cap, the last thread basically.  If you look at it wrong it comes off.


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## Chuck Key (Mar 12, 2008)

> _Originally posted by jackrichington_
> 
> Ok last stupid thought of the night..why one or the other?  Why not both in one...Have manufacturer thread all the ends, and then also supply a cap that threads on those threads??  Postable and non-postable , all in one...customer then can do either



I have been giving a similar idea lots of thought recently.  The cap could also be moved to the nib end and be shapped to minimize the step everyone complains about.  Possibably offer it as an option with kit pens.

Chuckie

Note:  This would not really be a cap but more like a bushing that is placed over the threads on one end or the other.


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## gwilki (Mar 13, 2008)

I've done two non-kit hard rubber FP's with caps that post and they seem fine after a few months in service. These are not kit pens, though, and there are no threads in the cap at all, so the issue of the threads damaging the barrel doesn't come into play. The cap has an inner soft plastic liner that "clips" onto the nib end when closed and slides over the end of the barrel when posted. It is very similar in design to the way that Mont Blanc does their pens.


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## Neodon1 (Apr 16, 2008)

That's what makes America Great; we can all have our own opinion
about what we like and dislike. (You don't have to agree, and that's
alright. I personally won't make pens that donâ€™t post for that very
reason. People tend to lose the pen cap if it is not affixed to the post when the writer begins the thought process to convey it on paper.

In the middle of that thought process studies show that, that is when
the user is most likely to misplace or lose the cap.

OK, studies donâ€™t show that, but my thought process does, so there...

lol

Well there is my 2 cents. I make and sell only postable pens because
of the above mentioned study.

Neodon [8D]


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## bitshird (Apr 20, 2008)

Just my .0475 cents(adjusted for inflation) When I made my first Baron I thought it was so cool, but the clip being in the wrong place most of the time was a pain, now I've gotten on an El Grande kick, Lots better, all I have to worry about is the cap falling off when posted.
I realize that many here do not have metal lathes, so doing much other than drilling a straight hole into a cap, If however you have a drillchuck that will fasten into your tail piece,(MT1 - MT2) and can offset your tail stock, you can create an inside taper, of course this will necessitate either a 3 jaw chuck or possibly a Beal ER32 collet set up. this way you could match the inside taper of your cap, with to the outside taper of the end of the pen, I'm hoping to afford a few Mutcheler &lt;sp&gt; nib sections and can make a reinforcing center band, which actually won't be more than decoration, since the actual interference area will be above the edge  of the cap, ( I had thought about doing something similar to pipeyeti's design or gwilki's) but thinking upon what has been said, I think the actual best way is nearer to Georges style and what scubaman has said, less interference spread over a larger area.


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## scubaman (May 6, 2008)

> _Originally posted by bitshird_
> 
> now I've gotten on an El Grande kick, Lots better, all I have to worry about is the cap falling off when posted.


You might want to check out PSI's Olympian kit.  I made a dozen of these, and the cap posts well with no gap and no danger of falling off.  They have nother issue - the bore in the cap finial is too small to accept a conversion pump!  Maybe this is fixed by now - they do know about it and were going to get it fixed, I do not know the status.  You can ream out the hole of course...



> If however you have a drillchuck that will fasten into your tail piece,(MT1 - MT2) and can offset your tail stock, you can create an inside taper,


How do you do that???  I know how to do an outside taper via an offset tailstock, between centers.  Which, incidentally, requires to work between centers and driving via a lathe dog.  But an internal taper?


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## bitshird (May 6, 2008)

Rich. I had a momentary lapse of thought, you are right, Thank heavens for compounds.
But if your cap were in a three jaw chuck or a Beal collet, as you drew the boring bar out would you not achieve a taper?? off set your tail stock towards the operator side, touch off with the tail stock fully extended and as you withdraw it should create a taper, I think I'll try that this afternoon just to see if it works..


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## scubaman (May 6, 2008)

Darn, I still don't follow...  what does a boring bar have to do with a tailstock?  It's on the tool post, on the compound.  Most compounds can be rotated - I think Sherline has one that can't.  Or are you saying rely on flex?  I would not...  Of course you can turn an internal taper, just forget the tailstock thing


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## Paul in OKC (May 6, 2008)

You might be able to drill a taper with the tail stock offset a bit. That would count on the drill 'finding center' when you start the hole, and figuring the offset in the tail stock would cause the hole to be bigger at the entry point than at the bottom. Possible, I suppose, but not sure about consistancy.


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## bitshird (May 7, 2008)

Well sorry for the dumb Arse idea, I had never tried it until yesterday, The idea was to put a boring bar in a drill chuck and offset the tail stock with the cap held in a three jaw or Beal collet, I tried this I was thinking that by starting with the boring bar at or near the closed end of the cap and the tailstock extended fully that as it was withdrawn it would cut an inside taper I offset my tail stock .020 and tried but it didn't work, so now I'll take my D.A award for the day shut up, and realign my tail stock, [)][)][)]


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## RussFairfield (May 7, 2008)

I have been making what we now call a "closed-end" pen since before they had a name, and I would like to offer several observations to the topic of postable caps. They are in no particular order .....

Does it really make any difference whether the cap posts or not?? We make a pen. It is what it is. People either like it or they don't?? If they like it, they will buy it; and if they don't, they won't. 

I have come to thinking the same way about threads. They either work or they don't. Most potential buyers  have no other concerns than that. 

One of my El Grande fountain pens (both ends closed and recessed clip) was included with other penmaker's pens in a feature article in one of the fountain pen magazines last year. There was no mention in the review of my pen that the cap did not post. I sold several pens as a result of that article, and none of the buyers made the first comment about the cap not posting.

My most popular fountain pen has always been my original design with the "hour-glass" shape. There is no way the cap can be posted. People either accept or reject it on it's style alone. Making the pen a little longer improves the balance and adding a better nib makes it a better writer. I have ignored this pen for far too long, and have started making them again.

My observation has been that people expect the cap to post when they first pick up a pen that looks like a commercial pen. Very few will let that be their deciding factor. If it doesn't look like a commercial pen, they have no expectations and will be more inclined to accept the pen for what it is.

Posting the cap has to mean more than just sticking the cap on the end of the pen and hoping it stays there. The pen with the posted cap has to be functional and comfortable to use; and it has to look good that way.

I got into making closed-end pens because the pen kits at the time were neither functional nor comfortable to use with the cap posted or un-posted.  The caps were heavy and the posted pen was top-heavy and uncomfortable to use. Using the pens un-posted was even worse because the rough metal threads and ridges on the posting fittings rubbed the skin raw. This isn't as much of a problem with some of the newer kits that are now available.


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## scubaman (May 7, 2008)

Russ, it may not matter to you, for the reasons you state, but I assure you it matters to some.  I have definitely lost sales because a cap did not post.  Of course I have also lost sales because a pen was too large, too heavy, too small a grip section etc.  Whether I want to make a decent postable cap is my business.    (I know that's not what you were trying to say.)  What I mean is, that sellability is simply one aspect of this.  A crappy-posting cap is just that...  crap...  an El Grande cap that has an unsightly gap when posted and comes off when you look at it wrong is no asset to a pen!  I have sold many a pen with that cap though...  that does not make it any better in my eyes!

Having a cap that posts is one aspect of a pen, but not the only one.  I view it as a good goal for those that pursue it actively.  And if someone wants t omake a postable cap, they might as well do it right!

I do agree only partially with the thread comment.  I assume you mean multi-start threads vs single start.  It does not matter whether a pen closes in 3/4 of a turn or several complete turns as long as the thread works right and engages w/o fiddling around.  What does matter is the holding power of a thread...  4-lead threads typically get so steep they don't wedge in place and a pen can easily come separated, especailly loose-tolerance metal or metal/plastic threads.  The current crop of large pens from CSU and PSI all fall into that category.  It's the sort of hidden feature that few people think of when they pick up a pen.  And if it only sits on a desk may never notice.  As far as I'm concerned a single start thread that works smoothly and stays closed is much preferred.  I think thread tolerances play a large part, and these guys seem to all design the threads too loose...


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