# CA or BLO first?



## ZanderPommo (Nov 7, 2009)

i've been doing CA a few months, with ok results (usually very good-occasionally not) and I just tried with using BLO with the CA a few days ago. im not impressed. the finish looks very dull, but feels very smooth, so i know its solid CA.
I put BLO on a towel, then wiped it on, and followed with CA rubbing it on really really fast for 6 coats, BLO first, then CA. it came out looking fairly smooth so i hit it with only the 12k mm.

so my question is should i do the CA first? will that help at all?

before i was using just CA/accelerant and would do 3 coats, then sand w/600, then do three more coats, lightly sand w/600 all the way up to 12k.
this seemed way more time consuming and difficult then when i used the BLO (which was easy as pie) so id like to make this work.
is it possible i just shoulda did all the mm sheets??

any input is GREATLY appreciated


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## lorbay (Nov 7, 2009)

Russ Fairfields video uses the CA first then the BLO, see it in the library.

Lin.


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## leehljp (Nov 7, 2009)

BLO sometimes causes dulling on CA in places. But Russ's procedure is as mentioned above - CA first and then BLO.

There is a reason for doing BLO first - on occasion. Certain amber colored oils, including BLO will add a rich amber color to some woods and bring out the grain features (*often referred to as "popping the grain"). However, this hinders the colors of some woods though. It will make very white ivory look antiqued; it will make bright maroonish bloodwood look slight orangish. 

BLO generally should not be used on oily woods. Straight CA is better.

* In most woodwork circles, "popping the grain" does not mean "bringing out the grain" as to color or grain feature, but "raising" the grain fibers by wetting it. Then the raised up grain fibers can be sanded down for a much smoother final finish. The color enhancement by enhancing the grain features was a by-product of the original "popping the grain". But the term was then moved over to the second meaning.


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## ZanderPommo (Nov 7, 2009)

this was done on Bubinga-sorry forgot to say that


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## NewLondon88 (Nov 7, 2009)

leehljp said:


> * In most woodwork circles, "popping the grain" does not mean "bringing out the grain" as to color or grain feature, but "raising" the grain fibers by wetting it. Then the raised up grain fibers can be sanded down for a much smoother final finish. The color enhancement by enhancing the grain features was a by-product of the original "popping the grain". But the term was then moved over to the second meaning.



I never knew that!  I mean.. I knew the technique, but I never knew that
this was what was referred to as 'popping the grain' ... I always assumed
it was the enhanced contrast and color saturation of the oiled wood.

I thought that's how it was being used, too .. but now that I think of it, 
it could be that this was only my assumption, while both things were
going on at the same time.


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## leehljp (Nov 7, 2009)

NewLondon88 said:


> I never knew that!  I mean.. I knew the technique, but I never knew that
> this was what was referred to as 'popping the grain' ... I always assumed
> it was the enhanced contrast and color saturation of the oiled wood.
> 
> ...



When I was a kid back in the '50s, water was used to "lift" the grain for it to be sanded smoother. I heard the term from my uncle and a few other carpenters when oak floors were put down - "pop it (with water) and sand, let it dry and then finish."

I do sometimes wonder how and if expressions are localized to regions or if it is universal. When I came here, I kept reading the pop the grain as to enhancing the grain, but on most WW forums, the term referred to the sanding purpose for the most part - which was the way I heard it as a kid."


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## Bree (Nov 8, 2009)

If you apply the BLO first to pop the grain, you MUST let it dry before applying the CA. If you don't, it may very well fog the finish from underneath. I have made this mistake several times and fogged pens. It was only when I really looked carefully at the Russ Fairfield video that I realized I was doing it wrong.

The key thing to realize is that the BLO in the CA/BLO finish is not being used to enhance the appearance of the wood. It is being used to cure and lubricate the CA. It really isn't even getting into the wood since it is on top of the inital CA layer. 

BLO applied first has a totally different function. So you have to separate the two functions and give each what it needs to succeed. In the case of BLO applied first, it needs to dry and that will take several hours at least. 

I think that these oils like BLO and Tung Oil polymerize as they dry so there is a chemical reaction taking place in the oils on and in the wood. There is certainly a chemical reaction taking place between the CA and the BLO but it is a different one where the BLO is accelerating the drying of the CA but at a slower rate than normal CA accelerators.

That's my $.02 on it.
:wink::wink::wink:


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## ZanderPommo (Nov 8, 2009)

thank you very much, that explains alot
i'll give it more of a chance


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## jimofsanston (Nov 8, 2009)

CA first then BLO for atleast 4 coats of thin then med. Works really good. Then i do one coat of Behls finish and it has a deep shine. then 2 coats of Ren wax.


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## NewLondon88 (Nov 8, 2009)

Jim .. just an FYI .. I don't know if there's any such thing as two coats of Ren wax.. 
it's my understanding that the second application removes the first one


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## ZanderPommo (Nov 8, 2009)

why?


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## Chasper (Nov 8, 2009)

Zander,
I do it almost exactly as you described, with a few critical differences.  I put a tiny drop of BLO on the paper towel, just enough to pop the grain, rub it across and back one time, then drizzle CA (usually thin) on the turning, always as very high speed.  Repeat the same process 6-8 times, using BLO first then CA immediately after every time.  I rarely use accelerator, I buff all the way through 12M, and I put on a coat of plastic polish immediately after the last MM.  Total time elapsed from first coat to ready to assemble, 3-4 minutes unless I'm rushing.

Yes, I know that CA can fly back into my face when applying it at high speed, I've done a few thousand pens and it hasn't happened yet.  I keep the paper towel in contact with the turning as I drizzle the CA.

Yes, I know that the BLO is not soaking into the wood after the first coat or two.  I keeping using it on every coat because it makes the CA perform consistently (I use it on plastic occasionally).

No dulling.  I've seen pens from three years ago after heavy use and they still have a nice coat of CA with no dulling, no blotches.


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## ZanderPommo (Nov 8, 2009)

i wish i could get results like that, that fast.


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## dustmaker (Nov 10, 2009)

I have just tried CA + BLO on my last pen after struggling with CA for a while.  I can say that using BLO does both speed up the process and lay down a much smoother layer of CA.  This also speeds up the process since less sanding is needed.  I am going to keep working with this method as I think it holds merit. (still not down to 4 mins though!)
I should like to point out that in Russ' video he performs a couple of steps that I think are easy to overlook.  He wipes off the excess BLO and then sands lightly with 600.  I think this is important to remove the excess BLO or dull and/or blotchiness can occur.   The problem with using BLO first, IMHO is that even light sanding will not remove it as it has opportunity to soak into the pores of the wood.  As was stated, letting this dry is important...most oils need 24 hours to be sure.  

I made this mistake on a nice walnut pen I had made and put some teak oil on it to bring out the contrasting grains...had a nice CA finish when I went to bed.  Brought it to work to show off, but don't you know it, it had blotches all over the place.  The forums here helped me realize it was the oil.  

The other lesson I learned with this pen is not to be too anxious to sand down/buff your pen after applying CA.  Let it cure.  I overbuffed the pen and it looked worse than when I started, I think because the CA was still a bit soft and maybe I was a bit eager at the buffing wheel.

Lessons learned (and hopefully passed on )


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## ZanderPommo (Nov 10, 2009)

oh yeah, I should of updated this. i've gotten the hang of it and it only took a couple tries. takes me about a half hour but it used to be longer.
i'll post a pic of last night's pen


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## ZanderPommo (Nov 10, 2009)

wow this pic turned out horrible, this is really bright blue.
byron's curly maple, dyed blue before applying finish, then 9 coats of ca w/blo, those 9 coats took me the time for 6 coats before i started using blo
cigar in 24k gold


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## jleiwig (Nov 10, 2009)

ZanderPommo said:


> wow this pic turned out horrible, this is really bright blue.
> byron's curly maple, dyed blue before applying finish, then 9 coats of ca w/blo, those 9 coats took me the time for 6 coats before i started using blo
> cigar in 24k gold


 
Nice pen, but can I ask what was the purpose of you using the BLO?  

In this instance, since the wood was already dyed a color, the BLO had no added benefit.  I think that too often people read about a method someone may or may not use and must use that on every single pen.  

In this example the BLO added nothing of value to the pen, so it was a useless addition.  IMO, BLO should only be used as said above where the grain will work well with some warm amber color added from the oil.


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## ZanderPommo (Nov 10, 2009)

i didn't apply blo to this pen at all.
i forst put on ca and then used the blo to lubricate and cure the ca


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## carlor (Nov 10, 2009)

But, dustmaker above stated that for him, using BLO sped up the process and helped the CA go on much smoother. 

Carlo.


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## dustmaker (Nov 10, 2009)

carlor said:


> But, dustmaker above stated that for him, using BLO sped up the process and helped the CA go on much smoother.
> 
> Carlo.



That's right, but I think the issue here is whether or not you put on the BLO before CA.  In some cases some folks like to put on an oil finish first to bring out the grain (BLO, tung oil, teak oil,etc), but if the blank is color dyed there may not be much point in doing this.  The point being, if you do put an oil on before CA, *it needs to dry first* or you may get dullness and/or dull blotches.  In my limited experience putting on the BLO after applying CA does speed up the curing (cuz it's an accelerant), and that seems to be its main purpose.  So to clear up the confusion (I hope) there is some benefit to using BLO as an accelerant/lubricant when applied after a layer of CA.  The merits of applying BLO or any other finish to enhance grain is left to the penmaker as opinions will vary .


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## carlor (Nov 10, 2009)

Thanks for clearing that up for me. I've only finished one pen with CA/BLO and a few trial pieces. One of the videos I watched had them putting the BLO first and then the CA right after which is what I was doing. Now I understand when to put it on first and what it is used for. Now, if I can only find time to dig a path to my lathe before it gets too cold in the garage...


Thank you,

Carlo.


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## candy1land (Nov 10, 2009)

I have a question regarding this process.  I watched the video and followed it step by step on the first pen I did this past weekend and what I noticed was that after sanding in between coats to dull the CA finish I ended up with scratch marks from the 600 grit paper?  

The second pen I did the same process again but did not sand in between.  Not as many scratches to be seen but then I ended up with dull splotchy patches in some places on the pen. 

I only did 3 coats total and nothing after this process...meaning no bufffing/polishing or anything else. 

I am BRAND new to CA finish - or any kind of finish really so any suggestions/help would be appreciated.  I thought the CA finish came out a little plastic looking as compared to Mylan's and Enduro which I have tried as well.  

Just trying to get the CA thing down....I didn't find it too difficult to do but I am not seeing the true results yet either.  

Thanks, 

Candy


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## John Eberly (Nov 10, 2009)

*Boiled Linseed Oil and Cyanoacrylate Glue*

I used the full names for the noobs (like I was) who spend hours trying to figure out what BLO and CA mean.

Just a couple of personal observations:

BLO does tend to give a gold/amber tone to wood, similar to spar varnish. It also emphasizes the grain and figure in my opinion. I don't use it if I'm looking for a pure white or unaltered color from a special blank.

When I use BLO, I usually apply just a couple of drops directly to the blank on the lathe at a slow speed and follow immediately with my first coat of CA, no drying time at all. I use a piece of rag as an applicator and rub continuously back and forth until I am sure the BLO/CA has cured. I do not have problems with blotching with this method. I have forgotten whose tutorial I learned this from, but I distinctly remember being cautioned against stopping the buffing effort before the cure is complete. I very seldom sand between coats, but if I do it's usually wet sanding with 400 grit automotive paper.

The biggest problem that I've had with BLO/CA is that it's harder to build up any thickness of finish this way. If you are trying, for instance, to add a few thousandths of thickness to the finish you're better off to use straight CA and not buff it in. Just wipe it across once with a rapid motion and wait for it to cure. You CAN spray a little accellerator on your finger and wipe it across, but spraying directly on the blank will give a nice pebbled texture.

The bottom line - experiment, try everybody's approach, but don't listen to anybody telling you that something won't work - try it yourself.


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## dustmaker (Nov 10, 2009)

Hi Candy,

I don't think there is a Holy Grail, "follow these steps and you will get a beautiful pen", finishing process.  It looks like everyone has a slightly different process, but maybe I can point out a few things (I am really just learning this myself).
If you are getting scratches with 600 grit then maybe you are sanding too aggressively.  The point of the sanding (I think) is to smooth out the CA and remove any last hints of the BLO.  Generally, not much pressure is needed.  You can always sand to higher grits to remove the scratches :redface:
Secondly, are you using any micro mesh or buffing after the procedure?  I have not been very happy with the CA/BLO finish without some MM/buffing afterwards, but maybe that is just me. :tongue:
Also, try more than 3 coats.  I have been going between 6 to 10 coats of CA to get good results.
And yes, the finish will look very plastic...that is what we are doing, coating in plastic (acrylic)!  But the finish is very durable and will last longer than any wax based finish.  I have read that some folks like to make a satin finish by sanding off the gloss , but that seems to defeat the purpose!
Keep at it and make the process something you like.  I am sure we will all arrive at that special process that works for us and gives the results we are looking for. 



candy1land said:


> I have a question regarding this process.  I watched the video and followed it step by step on the first pen I did this past weekend and what I noticed was that after sanding in between coats to dull the CA finish I ended up with scratch marks from the 600 grit paper?
> 
> The second pen I did the same process again but did not sand in between.  Not as many scratches to be seen but then I ended up with dull splotchy patches in some places on the pen.
> 
> ...


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## NewLondon88 (Nov 10, 2009)

candy1land said:


> I have a question regarding this process.  I watched the video and followed it step by step on the first pen I did this past weekend and what I noticed was that after sanding in between coats to dull the CA finish I ended up with scratch marks from the 600 grit paper?



The first thing that comes to mind here is that:
A) You have extremely good eyesight, or;
B) You got some larger sanding grit on your 600 paper.

I'm assuming you meant large scratch marks ,because all sanding will
leave scratch marks. The idea is to use successively finer scratch marks
till the eye can't see the individual scratches. .and we perceive this as
a glossy finish.

Large scratch marks come from foreign matter on your blank or sandpaper,
the most common being grit from a lower grade sandpaper. Cheap 
sandpapers have grit that is non-uniform. That's one of the reasons we
like the MicroMesh so much.. pretty uniform scratch pattern.



candy1land said:


> I am BRAND new to CA finish - or any kind of finish really so any suggestions/help would be appreciated.  I thought the CA finish came out a little plastic looking as compared to Mylan's and Enduro which I have tried as well.



Well .. it is a plastic finish, so it will likely look like one unless you
happen to get very good at it. There's a few people here who have
a dead-on CA finish and while highly glossy, it doesn't look particularly
'plastic'. Thicker finishes might enhance the plastic look, as will a finish
that has scratches or haze in it.


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## candy1land (Nov 11, 2009)

Well that makes more sense to me.  I will try adding a few more coats than I've been doing as well as experimenting with the sanding in between just to see if I can get rid of the marks.  They aren't big scratches....but I can see them.  I do MM after the whole thing is done but I don't see a huge difference with that process yet.  

Thanks for the suggestions.  

Candy


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## Bree (Nov 12, 2009)

I seldom sand the CA until I get to the final coat.  I run the speed up very high during the curing phase and use a good strong pressure which smooths and glosses out the CA.  It really needs no sanding... just clean off the BLO and hit it again and again and again etc.  

On the last layer, if I haven't screwed up (which I HAVE done), I start sanding with MM-2400 and go to 12,000.  Then I buff it on the Triple buffer but I only use #2 and #3... no Tripoli as it will likely cause scratches.

Seems to work well.
:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:


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## ZanderPommo (Nov 12, 2009)

+1
i was having trouble having to sand alot at first, but after like 4-5 pens w/this process its getting smoother and smoother, i now do 600 then 1000 then all the mm, end its still improving. i'll probably end up only having to do mm soon


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## NewLondon88 (Nov 12, 2009)

ZanderPommo said:


> +1
> i wa shaving trouble having to sand alot at first, but after like 4-5 pens w/this process its getting smoother and smoother, i now do 600 then 1000 then all the mm, end its still improving. i'll probably end up only having to do mm soon



You could probably skip the 600 and 1000.. from what I understand, the
1500 micromesh is roughly equivalent to 400 sandpaper.. 
so you're going backwards a few steps at first.

BUT .. using the sandpaper probably extends the life of your micromesh..
and sandpaper is cheaper


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## ZanderPommo (Nov 12, 2009)

how is it equivilent to 400?
it seems much finer


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## NewLondon88 (Nov 12, 2009)

ZanderPommo said:


> how is it equivilent to 400?
> it seems much finer



1500 micromesh equivalent to 400 sandpaper .. they feel similar to me.

ah .. found it.. http://micro-surface.com/index.php?main_page=page&id=15

"This material is available in the following 9 grades, from coarse, to fine:1500, 1800, 2400, 
3200, 3600, 4000, 6000, 8000*, and 12000* REGULAR. 1500 MICRO-MESH™ is equivalent 
to a scratch pattern left using 400 wet/dry, but is much more consistent."

so .. similar, but not quite the same. Anyway, if you sand to 1000 and then start
in with 1500 micromesh, you're going down a few grades in your sanding since the
1500 micromesh is more coarse than the 1000 sandpaper. But if you sand up to
150, 220, 320 400 .. then you can switch to the micromesh


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## ZanderPommo (Nov 13, 2009)

ok cool, saves some time


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## PTownSubbie (Nov 18, 2009)

One thing I have been trying is the use of 0000 Steel Wool between coats instead of sandpaper. Just make sure you wipe it off really well and remove all the Steel Wool pieces so they don't get in your finish. DAMHIKT.


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## writestuff (Nov 19, 2009)

*Ca/blo?*

In the first Russ FD. video I watchd, he used two coats of CA/BLO with both followed by the grocery bag rubdown. This does two things IMHO, it removes excess blo, and smooths the finish. I then apply auto body polish, (white diamond paste) with a clean strip of paper towel and high speed rotation of the lathe. The resulting finish is not half bad. :biggrin:
WS


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## snyiper (Nov 19, 2009)

I have had good luck with rubbing compound before the final coat to smooth it all out...


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