# Can of Worms



## MartinPens (Nov 29, 2011)

I'm pretty certain this is a can of worms that has already been opened, but i am interested in varying opinions....

One of the things that I enjoy about the forums and woodworking in general is the openness in sharing methods and techniques. I have certainly learned a lot over the years from others here and I have made an effort to contribute in the threads and via tutorials in the library. 

I find myself coming up to a line recently... this line is a place where I have spent a considerable amount of time and money refining and attempting to perfect a certain way of making a specialty pen. And now that I'm getting the process down I have many people asking me how I do it. I am conflicted but have decided that since it is a particular niche that I need to try and comp some of my costs in getting here before I go giving away my methods.  Also - I have a general angst about the spirit of "free info" when I think we should be supporting one another by purchasing or trading with one another (some do this) and working to do our own research.

I was recently guilty of this myself when I contacted a member concerning kitless construction. I found myself asking very specific questions - basically wanting to skip the research/work/expense and have him give me all the answers up front.  He was helpful, but in retrospect I was grateful that what he said in general was "start here with these taps and dies and dive in!"  In other words, in my translation, "get in there and experiment and don't expect me to spoon feed you all the specific info.

I understand that each individual can do whatever the heck they want to do.  If you develop a niche and then decide to make a tutorial of the step by step process... as many have, that is fine.  But at what point do you hold on to specific information/methods - if you do - in hopes of retaining a niche product and hopefully recouping some of the expense in getting there through the sale of that specific niche product?

There it is.  Maybe I should have titled this "How to eat a can of worms"

I look forward to the responses. Let's keep it friendly with lots of happy faces.  : )

Martin

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## Rounder (Nov 29, 2011)

Very well said and should be understood. You might can point in the right direction but not give up specifics as to how it is done. If someone wants to know, they should put in the time to learn.


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## Drstrangefart (Nov 29, 2011)

Part of the trip is getting the information. If you find someone willing to give you the specifics, great! If not, go figure it out! I prefer passing as much info as possible, because it usually comes back full circle and something even better falls iny lap and I can move into new territory. But I also don't get upset with someone for wanting to keep their hard won secrets if they so desire.


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## IPD_Mr (Nov 29, 2011)

Too bad Eagle isn't here to respond to this one.  :biggrin:

Certain things, I believe, are alright to pass along.  Tips on finishing and sanding or design aids ect...  But to flat out give away how something is done is not only a disservice to you but to the person receiving the information.  If you would have asked Eagle that type of question, you would have got an ear full.  If you survived the tongue lashing, Eagle would have finally responded with how do you think it was done or how would you do it, cause I might like your way better.  Simply put a person does not learn or think when you give them the answers.  Talking about it can greatly improve skills and ideas.

I miss the long discussions with Eagle.  It really helped in my way of thinking today.


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## JimB (Nov 29, 2011)

I don't see anything wrong with keeping the info to yourself. Even though there is a lot of information that is shared openly that doesn't mean everything is out in the open. There is no reason for you to openly share something you are developing. If you are being contacted by individuals and don't want to share just politely tell them you are not ready to share the information.


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## Displaced Canadian (Nov 29, 2011)

Not a simple question. I had a friend that I was helping make fishing lures. A lot of people who make parts also make lures. They are glad to answer most questions but they have no problem telling you when you are asking for the proprietary info and you won't get any answers to those questions. Everyone is different, in my industry I have people ask me questions because they don't want to spend the time to find the answer for themselves and people who will waste hours of their time beating their heads against a wall when one simple question would clear the whole thing up for them.. I have a guy that works for me when he runs into something new it throws him for a loop and he's lost. I will show him how to deal with it and he will never ask me the same question again. Myself I will ask some questions before I start and if I get stumped then I will ask some more. When I am being asked the questions it's the same way. Most times a lot of questions will answer themselves in the shop if you just try.
 Oh right, I need to add smileys.:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:


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## Gofer (Nov 29, 2011)

Martin,

Your cigar replica pens are always amazing, and something many of us would like to try and make ourselves.  Having said that with every post of a new pen you always seem to answer the questions that are asked of you, just like you did for me earlier today.  These responses are very helpful for the community as a whole in attempting something new to us.  I agree with your desire to try and recoup some of your costs of figuring this all out before you publish any sort of full detail tutorial.

This is my opinion but sometimes we get lazy and don't try and do all the work ourselves and just want the results now.  I have learned more from the web forms than I ever could have expected, but I still think that doing something myself is a better way of learning something.  So with the guidance of the more experienced people here I have experimented (not always with good results) and vastly improved my skills.

Please continue to answer the general questions presented to you about any of the pens you make.  By giving guidance to those of use who would like to try you are passing on some of the knowledge you have without giving away the niche market by writting a tutorial.  

To the members who have written tutorials for the library, I thank you, they are a great resource for us all.

Bruce


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## Texatdurango (Nov 29, 2011)

Martin, To be honest I really don't know where you are heading with this but from what I can figure out, here are my thoughts........

When I joined the forum in 2007 I didn't know much about pen making and certainly had never tried techinques like segmenting and while there were a few advanced pan makers with the attitude of "go figure it out for yourself" there were several who offered their advice freely and I appreciated it. Since they shared their experiences freely decided that I would also freely share what I have learned with others and in my opinion, that's the way it should be.

I've written a few tutorials and helped quite a few members via PM's, over the phone or in person and have never asked for anything in return BUT......... (and I think this might be what your talking about) many people have suggested that I do a DVD tutorial covering all aspects of "kitless" and charge a few bucks for my trouble. At first I dismissed the idea but one day I might do it and if I spent a week or two putting the project together I wouldn't feel bad for charging for my time.

As far as listing a few taps and saying "have at it", I don't think that's what the person helping you meant.  I think he probably meant for you to get the tools you need and start experimenting on your own since in his opinion that is half the fun of the journey........ but I could be wrong!


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## OKLAHOMAN (Nov 29, 2011)

With a tear in my eye,:crying: Mike  you've said my thoughts completely,......




IPD_Mr said:


> Too bad Eagle isn't here to respond to this one. :biggrin:
> 
> Certain things, I believe, are alright to pass along. Tips on finishing and sanding or design aids ect... But to flat out give away how something is done is not only a disservice to you but to the person receiving the information. If you would have asked Eagle that type of question, you would have got an ear full. If you survived the tongue lashing, Eagle would have finally responded with how do you think it was done or how would you do it, cause I might like your way better. Simply put a person does not learn or think when you give them the answers. Talking about it can greatly improve skills and ideas.
> 
> I miss the long discussions with Eagle. It really helped in my way of thinking today.


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## sbell111 (Nov 29, 2011)

IPD_Mr said:


> Too bad Eagle isn't here to respond to this one.  :biggrin:


People keep posting things like this, but it should be remembered that there is a reason that he wasn't around this forum.

Eagle was not a God nor does every opinion he ever had need to be revered.


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## edicehouse (Nov 29, 2011)

Everything we do at one time or another was someones secret and many others figured it out, or were told/shown how to do it.  I know I would tell anyone how I did something, because that one nugget of something that I share, I have gotten 10 fold time and time again.  At what point will people start saying screw that guy he will not tell us how he _______'s?  The big thing I think one needs to ask theirselves is my technique I developed cost me about X number of dollars, have the knowledge I have gained from here worth that.


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## lorbay (Nov 29, 2011)

OK Martin enough of the B/S just tell us how to make good ASH. :biggrin::biggrin:

Lin.


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## sbell111 (Nov 29, 2011)

To the OP's question, you should share what you are comfortable with sharing and not what you aren't.  If I were you, I wouldn't share how you create your awesome ash effect, for instance.  You've already given a few hints at it.  If people want to experiment based on those hints and come up with a similar effect, that's fine, but you don't have to give away the very thing that make your offerings so very unique.

Still, don't be put off if every time you post one of your incredible pens someone (perhaps me) posts a reply that basically says 'Wow!  Howdya do that???'

That being said, I am ever thankful that people in this forum have been so willing to share.  It helps all of us become better at our craft.


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## ragz (Nov 29, 2011)

Martin,

You and I recently had a PM conversation about this. I was going to respond to a member asking how to do these and before responding to him I thought of asking your feelings on it. The reason I did is because you and I both use very similar methods and same tools to make the cigar illusion pens. I felt that if I shared how I did them I would be sharing how you did them and thought that since this was what you used to get into the guild then I should ask you. Long story short you didn't want me to share and I didn't.

If I say treat this pen first as a segment and secondly as a closed end pen. Does that really let the cat out of the bag? Not really because no matter how many of these you make or sell as long as you show them you will have questions on how to do them. I learned this at my local woodworking shop where I do pen turning demos to other pen turners and novice turners. There are things that I demo and things that I do not. I have shown them how do segementing including celtic knots and using aluminum can peices and herring bones. I've done this for two years now and to this day I get the same questions on how I did the first demo which was a celtic knot. There will be people that just don't get it even with a tutorial and those that will ask how without reading the tutorial or this thread first.

I think my question to you is whether or not you decide to share how you do it is if you find someone else selling them how will you feel or what will you do? Even at this point we aren't the only people making them I can think of at least 6 other poeple that have made at least one of these pens 4 of which are members here.


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## MartinPens (Nov 29, 2011)

sbell111 said:
			
		

> People keep posting things like this, but it should be remembered that there is a reason that he wasn't around this forum.
> 
> Eagle was not a God nor does every opinion he ever had need to be revered.



I don't find this response to be helpful in the smiley face division. Let's just stick with one can of worms at a time!

Sent from my iPad using Forum Runner


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## MartinPens (Nov 29, 2011)

lorbay said:
			
		

> OK Martin enough of the B/S just tell us how to make good ASH. :biggrin::biggrin:
> 
> Lin.



: )

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## sbell111 (Nov 29, 2011)

MartinPens said:


> sbell111 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I didn't use a smiley face in hopes that the post wouldn't be improperly placed in that division.


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## bitshird (Nov 29, 2011)

Martin, I go along with Mike and some of the others, Giving some help when some one is at a point they are close, but just need a suggestion is one thing, doing a complete HOW TO, is in my opinion not going to advance or educate the person on how it can be done. 
I appreciate tips when I get stuck on things, but some people just get obnoxious if you don't want to do a step by step tutorial, (ask wolftat). 
I think you have given a good bit of information as it is, You don't owe any one any explanation. A few people have come close, which shows they have tried and will probably get close to your standards, which is the way it should work.


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## MartinPens (Nov 29, 2011)

Texatdurango said:
			
		

> Martin, To be honest I really don't know where you are heading with this but from what I can figure out, here are my thoughts........
> 
> As far as listing a few taps and saying "have at it", I don't think that's what the person helping you meant.  I think he probably meant for you to get the tools you need and start experimenting on your own since in his opinion that is half the fun of the journey........ but I could be wrong!




I don't think there's any way for you to be wrong.... Since you were the guy I was talking to! : )

I felt, afterwards, that I was asking for shortcuts in a lazy way. You were generous in your information that allowed me to save some money by making an "informed" decision on what to get. And we both know, since we talked about it, that had I called 5 different people I may have gotten 5 different answers.

I thank you for what you shared and I am putting in the time to figure things out. There have been others who have been willing to give specific info, but I'm not sure it was "proprietary" info.

Thanks for the response and the big-grin smiley faces!

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## ghostrider (Nov 29, 2011)

I sometimes find it rude that someone would even ask.

Some people also ask how much you paid for the Christmas give you gave them. 

There are so many tutorials, and so much info on this site that us "Johnny com lately s." have it pretty easy. 

I haven't even done much looking in the "Advanced Pen Making" Forum, but figure I'll get there some day.

I even have a friend who refuses to consult the library when trying something new. Says it takes all the fun out of it, and I can see his point.


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## OKLAHOMAN (Nov 29, 2011)

Steve, no one ever said he was a god and not every opinion he had was revered so what is you point .




sbell111 said:


> IPD_Mr said:
> 
> 
> > Too bad Eagle isn't here to respond to this one. :biggrin:
> ...


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## RogerH (Nov 29, 2011)

I'm a relative newbie,and I've certainly not invested the time or come up with a truly unique and creative product like Martin or many other ultra experienced members have.

Therefore, I'm not in a postion to offer an informed opinion on what one should do in his situation.  However, I do applaud his courage in raising the issue.  It, and many of the replies from the veterans, have further educated me.

What I can say, and the reason I chose to write this, is that Martin merely publishing the photos of his exquisite work is more than enough for me.  Honestly, his pictures (and the work of many others here), inspire me.  I don't think Martin or any other member owes me a thing, and I just choose to be grateful for whatever someone decides to share.  Like I said, great work inspires me to try to be better and more creative.

Roger


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## MartinPens (Nov 29, 2011)

ragz said:
			
		

> Martin,
> 
> You and I recently had a PM conversation about this. I was going to respond to a member asking how to do these and before responding to him I thought of asking your feelings on it. The reason I did is because you and I both use very similar methods and same tools to make the cigar illusion pens. I felt that if I shared how I did them I would be sharing how you did them and thought that since this was what you used to get into the guild then I should ask you. Long story short you didn't want me to share and I didn't.
> 
> ...



Point well taken.
I think it should be clarified that I expressed an opinion to you in a PM, the decision to share is always up to the individual. If you were to share, you would be sharing YOUR method, however related to mine. But since we haven't talked methods by comparison, that isn't even clear. You would not be sharing a method that I originally shared with you... You would be sharing a method of your own. You were very courteous in asking my opinion, and I gave it.  Again, everyone is free to share information and I'm not interested in trying to shut anyone down... That is a futile process. If I want to keep something proprietary then I have to go theogh the expense of trademarking and such... Which others have done.  

My topic here is looking for input on how people feel about sharing information about a technique that has taken time and money to develop - especially as it applies to a niche or uncommon method - not general information of course. Personally I get a lot of joy in the process. My brain loves puzzles! I love thinking of a new way of doing something and then trying to figure out how to do it. It keeps the creative juices flowing.  Skipping the "figure it out" part takes away much of the fun for me.  On the other hand, spending money on tools and finding out I bought the wrong kind or something I don't need, can be frustrating.

Thanks for the great reply! These worms are getting tasty!!  Keep the smiley faces coming. I would add smiley faces, but Forumrunner doesn't give me that option.

: )

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## MartinPens (Nov 29, 2011)

OKLAHOMAN said:
			
		

> Steve, no one ever said he was a god and not every opinion he had was revered so what is you point .



Please make your point in a different thread or in a PM. It's off topic of this thread and not needed.

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## PenMan1 (Nov 29, 2011)

Mercedes Benz freely shares all of their safety innovations with all of the world's other car manufacturers. They do this in hopes of every car made being a safer product.

Conversely, you knock off one of their innovative design concepts or marketing ideas and Mrrcedes will come after the offending company with all their power.

Seems like pen makers could function in much the same way as Mercedes.


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## ed4copies (Nov 29, 2011)

Eagle (not saint Eagle, just the guy who I knew well) made an early bullet cartridge pen.  He did not have a place to sell them for the $100 plus he thought they were worth, so I sold a few for him.

Later, I MADE bullet cartridge pens and we saw each other again.  He was astonished that MINE was nothing like HIS.  Why didn't I copy the one I had, he asked.

Because I had never LOOKED at his design.  I opened the pen to see what refill it took, so I could sell the pen, but had I looked at his design--mine would likely have been similar.

After seeing mine, he changed part of his design---at THAT POINT--we could SHARE!!!  We both had knowledge that would HELP the other.

I have told a few people how I make these pens---I don't believe I have ever instructed someone on how Eagle did it---THAT was HIS knowledge, to give and take as HE preferred.  

There are many pen designs that I have SEEN when visiting other members here, but those pens have never been SHOWN on IAP.  The "clamor" over "TELL US how to do it", coupled with the "big boys" who copy the pen and have CHINA do it, have limited the visibility.

That's the way it is.  Do with YOUR knowledge as YOU see fit.


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## GoodTurns (Nov 29, 2011)

I, for one, have benefited from what you have chosen to share!  While I do appreciate "spoon-feeding", I also completely respect keeping something back.  As others have said, look at the finished product, then decide how you would go about getting there...we will likely take different paths and achieve different results, tho' along the same theme.  I know that at the end of the day, I am a better penmaker because I have LEARNED something!  I make a beautiful cigar pen that looks very little like yours!  The theme is there, but I have taken another direction.   I also believe that something shared in confidence should stay that way....If you choose to share publicly, fine, otherwise it should remain with only those you have confided in.  I thank you for what you have shared!


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## islandturner (Nov 29, 2011)

lorbay said:


> OK Martin enough of the B/S just tell us how to make good ASH. :biggrin::biggrin:
> 
> Lin.


 
LOL  :biggrin::biggrin:


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## ragz (Nov 29, 2011)

> Point well taken.
> I think it should be clarified that I expressed an opinion to you in a PM, the decision to share is always up to the individual. If you were to share, you would be sharing YOUR method, however related to mine. But since we haven't talked methods by comparison, that isn't even clear. You would not be sharing a method that I originally shared with you... You would be sharing a method of your own.


 
Without getting into specifics you have let enough info out and from looking at your postings I can see that how we make these is very similar. There are some differences in how we approach them. The reason I contacted you was I felt that if I did answer any specific questions on how I did them they would answer specifics that you feel are proprietary to how you make the pens. So after reading your opinion I stayed away from it.

You are very proud of your work and you should be. The work is very well done and the presentation is superb.

I really hope I'm wrong on this but...
The problem here as I see it is you are worried about how this affects your bottom dollar. Do you really think that if someone that is say 1500 miles from you will affect your sales that much if you show them how to do it? If that's the case shouldn't we all be paying the Don Ward's and Kurt Herzog's in the world a royalty for showing us how to do a slimline?

Share what you are comfortable with.


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## edicehouse (Nov 29, 2011)

It is a rainy day and this topic has gotten me over the hump of the day!  It is now on the downside to head home.  

There are 2 sides as I see it.  The one I stated earlier, more or less a give and take stance.

The other is I understand the time, money, ect invested in your design.  (Which are in a class of their own IMO).  

So yes it is a double edged sword.  

Are there people that would work with direction on your tech?  Yes.
Are there lurkers waiting for the beans to drop and instantly grab it and go back in the corner waiting for the next great thing?  Yes.

I guess it boils down to "Damned if you do Damned if you don't"  ~author unknown!


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## ed4copies (Nov 29, 2011)

SOME of us DID pay the originators.

Before there was a "widely accepted" internet, we read books.  From Dick Sing, usually.  So, yes the guys who started "penmaking" were paid royalties on their books.

We also attended demonstrations (which were fee based).

Don Ward (It'sVirgil) is a demonstrator at AAW events, for which HE is paid.  Kurt Herzog is also a demonstrator who is paid.

So, not all knowledge has been free and, in some venues, knowledge still has a value.

So, feel free to use whatever knowledge you have in any way you see fit.  It is YOURS.


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## BRobbins629 (Nov 29, 2011)

Personally, I've never had a problem sharing anything I've learned or developed.  I too have learned plenty here.  What I do strive to do is create designs that will have a signature look such that when someone looks at one of my pens they can tell its from me.  I think you have done this pretty well with your cigar pens and though I don't recall seeing others, I think you have achieved this.  A good artist can teach technique but the truly gifted student will take it in a new direction.  The non gifted will never duplicate the original even with direction.  Don't fear teaching.  In the long run it will make you better.


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## MartinPens (Nov 29, 2011)

ragz said:
			
		

> I really hope I'm wrong on this but...
> The problem here as I see it is you are worried about how this affects your bottom dollar. Do you really think that if someone that is say 1500 miles from you will affect your sales that much if you show them how to do it? If that's the case shouldn't we all be paying the Don Ward's and Kurt Herzog's in the world a royalty for showing us how to do a slimline?
> 
> Share what you are comfortable with.



Thanks for the comments - keep em coming.  I'm not feeling any angst or heavy protection feelings here... I'm just opening up a topic that is certainly often talked about among artists in the communities that I'm involved in and it's a good topic.  I do this for the creativity. I would also like to make a little money on something unique so I can support my creativity. You get online and try selling a standard kit pen and there are 100 others 1500 miles in every direction competing to sell the same thing.  I'm not even breaking even on kit pen sales! 1500 miles means nothing in this digital age. I think the key here is not to read in too much defensive info..... I'm not interested in convincing anyone of anything .... I am just interested in what others think about the topic and I enjoy the opinions and conversations. 

Thanks

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## MartinPens (Nov 29, 2011)

ed4copies said:
			
		

> SOME of us DID pay the originators.
> 
> Before there was a "widely accepted" internet, we read books.  From Dick Sing, usually.  So, yes the guys who started "penmaking" were paid royalties on their books.
> 
> ...



It would be nice to do something in my craft one day that would allow for demonstrations. Wouldn't it be great to be a Bin Pho and get paid for traveling and demonstrating an exceptional craft!  It's truly difficult to break in to something like that. Anyhow, thanks, Ed for your thoughts.

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## MartinPens (Nov 29, 2011)

BRobbins629 said:
			
		

> Personally, I've never had a problem sharing anything I've learned or developed.  I too have learned plenty here.  What I do strive to do is create designs that will have a signature look such that when someone looks at one of my pens they can tell its from me.  I think you have done this pretty well with your cigar pens and though I don't recall seeing others, I think you have achieved this.  A good artist can teach technique but the truly gifted student will take it in a new direction.  The non gifted will never duplicate the original even with direction.  Don't fear teaching.  In the long run it will make you better.



Wow!  

Nicely said.  Thank you. 

Regards,

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## Linarestribe (Nov 29, 2011)

How many people will actually go to the lengths to reproduce what they have learned when someone shares. The cigar pens are cool and Martin has a passion for them but not everyone will. They may try a few but find there passion in something else. Also this country is so vast that you may never run into the person that went to the lengths to reproduce what you created. It's the final product that that rarely gets copied in a custom product market and the volume would have to be in the millions to put a dent in your business. Sharing may also push you to create an even better product to compete with. The guys selling the tools and ideas to make stuff are the ones doing really well.

Jorge


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## MartinPens (Nov 29, 2011)

Linarestribe said:
			
		

> . The guys selling the tools and ideas to make stuff are the ones doing really well.
> 
> Jorge



Boy, isn't that the truth!!
I don't think I would make much money on a book of how to make ASH!  lol  : )

Thanks, Jorge

Regards,

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## MartinPens (Nov 29, 2011)

ed4copies said:
			
		

> Eagle (not saint Eagle, just the guy who I knew well) made an early bullet cartridge pen.  He did not have a place to sell them for the $100 plus he thought they were worth, so I sold a few for him.
> 
> Later, I MADE bullet cartridge pens and we saw each other again.  He was astonished that MINE was nothing like HIS.  Why didn't I copy the one I had, he asked.
> 
> ...



Very interesting, Ed.
I had never seen a cigar pen prior to making one. I actually was inspired by some blanks I had purchased in the classifieds. I received the wood and there was some sapwood and spalting on the ends and I thought "wow, that looks like a cigar with ash."  I went down to the cigar shop, bought a few cigars, lit them up and let them burn (I actually used the vacuum since I hate the taste of cigar). Then I got started. Several versions later I really liked what I had and submitted it to the Pen Makers Guild. It was excepted and I was elated.  I have never claimed to be the originator of a pen that looks like a cigar. But.... I have never seen one that looks exactly like mine.  I am proud of that. I'm sure it's just a matter of time before I do see one.. and that's great. 

Now... had I not gotten info from this forum on closed-end pens - and purchased the closed end mandrel from PSI (with the DVD - and yes this cost money) then I would have never ventured here.

I got a creative idea inspired by nature (a piece of wood) and ran with it.  It is a unique expression of my creativity and will always have meaning to me even if it is copied by others. 

This is a great thread. Thanks for keeping the responses on topic!

Martin

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## maxwell_smart007 (Nov 29, 2011)

Raphael painted the "School of Athens" mural after observing Michelangelo's painting process on the Sistene Chapel roof.  

Raphael would observe Michelangelo painting the iconic ceiling, and thus learned the techniques and style...but he didn't copy it exactly - he claimed the style, learned the art, and adapted it to his own talents.  

Michelangelo created the style, and Raphael made it his own.  Without having observed Michelangelo, Raphael would not have been able to create his own masterpiece; and the world would have lost out.    

Sharing of knowledge and techniques are essential to developing a craft, in my mind.  I'm a teacher, however, so I firmly believe in building on bases of knowledge, and sharing knowledge with each other.  

That being said, I never worry that someone is going to copy an essay I wrote because I told them my thought process - they can use that thought process and come up with their own...

The flip side of the coin - I wouldn't learn a thing from Michelangelo, because I cannot hope to compete with his art...by the same token, I don't think you need to worry about competition, because your pens are also art - replication would not be easy.  

But wouldn't there be more joy and pride in seeing someone else taking your pen and making it their own through their own innovation?  You might lose some money, somehow, by having others copy your pens - but you'd have the satisfaction of knowing that you helped step up the craft in a huge way.  

The only proprietary bit is the ash - others have shared how to make a closed-end pen, and now there are commercial tools to make them.  The business world always finds a way to profit - but there's no stopping that wagon, and innovation would suffer if money always stood in the way.  

Like I've said many times, I likely have a different personal philosophy than most - but that's because I'm a teacher, I suppose...

Just my philosophical take on it,
Andrew


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## qballizhere (Nov 29, 2011)

There is a lot of great info on here and talent. Not everyone will say here you go this is the way I do it. We all have benefited from each other, and will hold some things back. You can point them in a direction but let them work on it themselves," better feeling of accomplishment for me that is when I had to WORK on it". I will make suggestions but it also leaves something for them to try and work towards.


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## mredburn (Nov 29, 2011)

I have tried to point the way with the pens and pictures I have posted without holding someones hand the whole way through. The goldsmith society that I belong to brought in nationaly recognized artists for weekend workshops. Rarely did we make a finished piece or a particular piece. What we were taught were techniques. It was up to us to design and apply the techniques we learned. 
 I realize there are some that have to have each step laid out and explained to them. But for the most part just being shown the possibilities and the starting point is enough to motivate the rest.

The point has been made that there comes a time/place where you just need to say "I'm not ready to share that yet."  There is also the very real probability that having been shared it will become common place. Then duplicated and offered across the board by the larger companies for retail sale. Thereby loosing its uniqueness and its 
appeal on the retail market.


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## Smitty37 (Nov 29, 2011)

*Secrets....*

First I want to say this....I don't want to know your method of making cigar pens... looks like fun novelty idea for a cigar smoker but not something that would be of any interest to me.

In general, my advice would be this. If you are thinking of protecting something because you think it might cause you monetary or other damage if devulged, don't tell. If you are protecting something that won't make any difference to your own success, tell.


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## Haynie (Nov 29, 2011)

Mr. Smart and I are of like mind but ultimately the answer to the question depends on the purpose of the IAP, how you view that purpose, and why you personally post here.  I have not found a mission or purpose statement for the existence of the IAP, maybe I missed it.

Some folks post with the intention of sharing knowledge.  Some post to show off their pens and get their egos stroked.  Others post to advertise their wares.  Very thinly I might add to the latter. There are those who just like pens, making pens, Talking about making pens and looking at the homemade pen porn.

I am sure there are other reasons too.

Edit:  I do not intend to put the open and uber regulated venders in the advertising portion.  I did not make that clear.


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## IPD_Mr (Nov 29, 2011)

For the most part Martin, this has been a really great thread.  I see the point of views from several sides.  I still like the angle that promotes thinking and creativity and not just direct copying.   As the one doing the learning this method generally improves my skill.   As the one doing the creating, it is nice to have ideas that are liked well enough that people want to try them but in the same sense, kind of insulting to just be blatantly copied.


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## TomW (Nov 29, 2011)

Haynie said:


> I have not found a mission or purpose statement for the existence of the IAP, maybe I missed it.



Mission Statement located here.

Mission Statement:
The International Association of Penturners (IAP) is an organization that recognizes pen making as a craft with unique and distinctive character. Pen making encompasses a vast array of techniques, materials, technical knowledge, and novel approaches to produce a functional, aesthetically appealing writing instrument. The goal of the IAP is to give pen makers a place to enhance their skills, share experiences, and promote the art of pen making.


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## soligen (Nov 29, 2011)

My new totorial just layed a lot of my cards on the table, but I dont think anyone needs to feel they have to do the same.  

I showed every step pretty much, and just look at what I do to make a kitless Bulb filler.  My methods work, but IMO they are not economically feasible, so I have no fear of much "competition" becase it just takes too darn long to make a pen that way, and not very many members have access to the high end market you would need to make such pens make business sense.  As someone who doesn't actively sell pens, the business reasons to my trade secrets simply dont come into my equation.  

Why did I do it?  To give back to where I learned so much, and it felt good to organized and lay out my process.  I HOPE it will inspire some people to take the next step by de-mystifying some things, but I dont really expect much direct mimicry.  I also hope some people may want to discuss alternative methods - there is ALWAYS a better way 

Now, with that all said, what you also have to realize is that someone like me may one day like what they see in your work, figure out how to duplicate it, and post a detailed tutorial.  Info will get out no matter what.

Keep it to your self if you want - it is your option/right, and I certainly wont think anything bad about you if you decide this.

Lastly, step by step tutorials wont really help someone much who needs to follow step-by-step. It is about triggering ideas by example.  For example, a member here taught me how he did breather tubes - and I simply could not make his process work, but it taught me enough to come up with my own process that works for me, and in the end, there is only one thing in the process that is the same.


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## glycerine (Nov 29, 2011)

Martin, in my opinion, that all depends on the person. Have you ever seen the movie "The Saint" (The one with Val Kilmer and Elisabeth Shue). He thought that cold fusion should be free for everyone. Others wanted to keep it a secret and sell it instead of give it away. 
Well, penmaking is very similar :biggrin:.  Ok, not THAT similar, but my point is, there are some people who enjoy giving, and those people will share with the world what they have learned or discovered.  Others want to keep it all to themselves and/or make a profit from it.  There's no right or wrong thing to do (unless you discover a cure for cancer, then the only right thing to do is spread the word immediately!! ).  On one hand, where would we (the human race) be if we didn't share our experiences and teach each other what we know?  On the other hand, where would Coke or Pepsi be if they just gave away there formulations to anyone who asked?
Only you can prevent forrest fires... or something like that.


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## Rmartin (Nov 29, 2011)

You can't put the toothpaste back in the tube. Once you post a picture, people are going to copy it. I don't have a problem with someone holding back on their way of making a pen. But I would ask, should we have a library of tutorials? Have you ever benefited from from the information in the library? I really don't think some grand enlightenment is gained from reverse engineering. I usually find my own way whether I am going on just a picture of the finished product or I have a complete instruction sheet.


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## Smitty37 (Nov 29, 2011)

*Market*

Keep in mind, that greater availability and greater exposure often result in greater demand for a product with attendant greater sales and higher profits for everyone.


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## Sylvanite (Nov 29, 2011)

I've learned a tremendous amount from many here who were willing to share their knowledge.  I try to honor that spirit and pass the skills along when I can.

That said, I've also been burned - both by members I confidentially showed techniques I developed who then publicly distributed them as their own, and by a customer for whom I (at significant personal effort and expense) created a custom product which they turned around and had mass-produced elsewhere.

So, I hope people will understand that although I'm generally happy to help, there are some processes that I don't share.  I thank those who take the time and effort to assist others, and honor any boundaries they set.  After all, it's easiest to not contribute at all.

Regards,
Eric


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## wiset1 (Nov 29, 2011)

Best of luck! If it's something that's already out there that's been done before I'll pass along what I've learned and how my creation came to be. Your situation is a bit deeper though. You've hit on a unique style that has endless potential for profits. For this and from a business point of view I say you should ride that pony to the finish line before handing out the shop secrets. That's just me. I tried my hand at what you do and it turned out like a bag full of warm sick...but you inspired me to try! One day I'll work through my own creative process to perfect it, but I'll still want to own one from you! It's how the process goes I guess.


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## areaman (Nov 29, 2011)

My opinion on this is share what you want. If someone wants to copy it, good luck to them. You have made your mark in being the first to come up with it but sooner or later someone will figure it out. As for myself I can read the instructions and watch all the tutorials and am not one bit closer to making it come out right. there are a lot of people on this forum who have talent the rest of us only dream of having. Skiprat made a tutorial on a rose machine, but I have yet to see where anyone copied it and are putting all these fantastic designs to work for themselves. I doubt that everyone would be able to copy your ash techniques either. sure some would but like I say its a matter of time before someone figures it out anyway. Congratulations on being the first. Hopefully you will have many more ideas.


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## Frank Nemke sr (Nov 29, 2011)

Great Post !  This is the best post I have read on here and it held my intrest through all 6 pages.  To share or not should be strickly up to the producer.


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## pensbydesign (Nov 30, 2011)

i personally think figuring things out is half the fun, tips are great but if someone told you all the details of how they did it all you did is copied them, getting there yourself you learn a lot more.


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## bitshird (Nov 30, 2011)

MartinPens said:


> Linarestribe said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Not all the guys selling tools are getting rich! What I know I've shared with students while teaching, and apprentices while training, and the little bit I know about making pens and Seam Rippers here on the IAP. I do understand how Neil felt when a fellow member got rather nasty with him, for not doing a full tutorial on his 360 Herringbone weave pens. 
I know that some of the more talented blank makers and turners have answered some of the Basic where to start questions I've asked, then it's let's see what you can figure out where YOU want to go with this type of work. 
We are under no obligation to do tutorials from pick up stick and follow steps 1 through 200 and put on table for sale.
 Quite a few members have generously donated their time and done some very easy to understand Tutorials, the one that come immediately to mind is George's tutorial on making grips and sections for fountain pens.
 Bottom line there isn't any correct/PC answer to your question it's what you feel like sharing, I would have no where near the skill I have today (which ain't much) had it not been for people sharing the basics, and helping trouble shoot when I had problems.
 But a bunch of these people aren't here any more. Sadly we have lost several members that left some for health some for differences of opinion with the Big Boss and some because they are so busy, they don't have much free time. 
 Just share what you feel comfortable with and feel good about it, knowing that you've done someone a favor, Perhaps a PM or even a phone conversation!


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## MartinPens (Nov 30, 2011)

bitshird said:
			
		

> Just share what you feel comfortable with and feel good about it, knowing that you've done someone a favor, Perhaps a PM or even a phone conversation!



Thanks for the comments!

One of things I have enjoyed most about the forum is the personal contact with people. I met and sold a lathe to a guy who is here on the forum, have had several phone conversations with people and enjoyed it a whole lot!  I know a couple members who I see on a weekly basis at local coffee shops. AND if I didn't have such a full schedule and two kids I would have accepted a few invites from people to "come on out" and spend time in their shop. Sharing techniques with someone who I get to know more personally really builds comradery. 

Thanks everyone for the fantastic comments. It has been very interesting and informative. It has helped round out some of my thinking on the subject.

Regards,

Martin

Sent from my iPad using Forum Runner


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## Tage (Nov 30, 2011)

MartinPens said:


> I'm pretty certain this is a can of worms that has already been opened, but i am interested in varying opinions....
> 
> One of the things that I enjoy about the forums and woodworking in general is the openness in sharing methods and techniques. I have certainly learned a lot over the years from others here and I have made an effort to contribute in the threads and via tutorials in the library.
> 
> ...



Martin, I haven't read the other responses but thought I would weigh in as I've been admiring your recent cigar pens you've posted.  In fact my response to your "Big Ash Pen" post I think my words were "I gotta figure out how you do that ash."  Tempted as I was to ask "Howdya do that?" I had a pretty good idea that you wouldn't (nor shouldn't) share it.  

There are, IMHO, two levels of "Howdya do that?".  One is at the level that a lot of beginners (and I put myself into that category) asking basic "how to" questions (finish, turning technique, photography, etc.), and those are readily answered here.  It is entirely a different thing to ask someone who has developed a unique product and honed their craft through their own trial and error (and $$ that go with it!), who has developed a market for that product, how they do it.  

I totally respect that you don't share your "trade secrets" and don't think you should feel torn in any way.  I appreciate that you post your pens for the rest of us to admire.  There are others here (again, totally with in their rights) who do not post pictures of some of their unique and high end products.  I look at what you've done as raising the bar on the craft and something I have to aspire to.  Keep up the good work and thanks for sharing.


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## biednick (Nov 30, 2011)

I fully understand the decision not to tell people evertything. However, I personally am not attempting to make any money with this, so if someone asks me something, I'll tell them. Now, I might not go into great detail, but I feel I should share what knowledge I have t people here, just as many have done for me.


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## peregrinerose (Apr 9, 2012)

This has been a really interesting thread to read, and I read all 6 pages.  Personally, I don't really understand the territorial "I know but won't share" mentality, as that hurts everyone.  Sharing all kinds of information and techniques allows people to develop the art even further, and the art component to the technical skills makes each pen so unique, even when the same technical skills are utilized, that it's virtually impossible to hurt in sharing data.  

I admit, that my perspective is as an optometrist, and collegues constantly share tips, tricks, ideas, practice management philosophies, etc., as we want our profession as a whole to do well, rather than micromanaging our cosmos and seeing each other as 'competition'.  There are exceptions to that rule, of course, but they tend to be less successful, as the lack of sharing tends to make them more closed to other ideas as well.  I'm also a teacher (skydiving, parachute rigging) and quite freely share my money making tips and techniques with students, hoping that some day they'll come back and give me some improvement on what they learned from me (and that is occasionally the case!).

I'm a big picture kind of girl, and see myself as pretty insignificant in the grand scheme of the world.  Keeping secrets that will die with me serves no greater good. 

Just my humble opinion, and I completely respect the stance of those that don't want to share.  You'll never hear me ask for that kind of information, as I don't want my head ripped off.  I just tend to hang with people that share my mindset, so we learn from each other in all kinds of ways, without having to ask.


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## dbledsoe (Apr 9, 2012)

Why should I learn from my mistakes when I can learn from yours?
When I want to learn about something, I go to where the knowledge is, which is a big reason I am on this forum. It is not just to look at the pretty pictures, however enjoyable that is.
That said, sometimes I have to pay for the book or video, which I am perfectly willing to do if it advances my knowledge significantly. I have spent more than twenty years in martial arts, learning techniques much older than penmaking, and there are still instructors who will not share certain aspects unless you are one of their most dedicated students.
Yes, I recognize that I am arguing both sides of the issue. In essence what I am saying is this: don't be offended if I ask how something is done, and I won't be offended if you tell me you can't (won't) say. If you want to sell me the information, I can decide if I am willing to meet your price or do it on my own. This ain't rocket science and I am sure many of the people here can figure out most things. If you have a patentable process, there are ways to protect it. Otherwise, don't get upset when someone copies it.
I just started in penturning, and I hope I don't have to duplicate several hundred years of learning. I'm almost 69 years old and I don't think I can recreate all of it.


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## low_48 (Apr 9, 2012)

My opinion on design or method secrets is; if you don't want to share it, why show it on the forum? Aren't you asking for inquiries if you show a new technique on a forum that promotes sharing information? Same thing with the pro turners that tour the country. They want us to pay them some pretty good money to show and teach us their techniques, (even so far as to take money for hands-on training) but don't appreciate us using that style if we want to sell something like what they make. If you want to keep it to yourself, keep it to yourself and your customers. Of course I have a pet peeve for people that post all their work to multiple forums. I guess it's just the way I was brought up. I don't go fishin' for compliments.


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## Haynie (Apr 9, 2012)

While I agree with most of your points and as a teacher I can easily see the free flow of information as something that can only help the profession.  

As a business owner I can tell you that competition for business is ruthless and if you have an angle you hold your cards close to your chest.


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## Padre (Apr 9, 2012)

Upfront: sorry for the length.

Martin,
When I started reading this thread, the thought that came into my mind  was, believe it or not, preparing a sermon.  For over 2000 years there  have been people who have been commenting, preaching, writing,  exploring, tearing apart Scripture.  So here I am, 2000 years into the  process trying to come up with 'new' material to make it relevant to the  folks of 2012.  How to do that?  I read what has gone before, study it,  and try to make it mine by doing my own work, applying it to my life,  using the tools I have to create my own work.  Sure, I could go  out on the internet or get a book of prepared sermons someone else  wrote, but IMHO that's just not right.  If I am to do the sermon, then I  should prepare it and write it: put my own effort, ideas,  orginality...in other word, put my own self into it.

I see that same theme in this thread.  You have posted pictures of  amazing cigar pens.  Others have posted amazing pictures of quarter  pens, hand made metal pens, watch part pens, etc.  Each of those  processes has it's own 'proprietary' ways of doing things.  Your 'ash'  for instance is a perfect example.  And, I think you are righteous in  keeping the 'how' to yourself.  It is what makes your art yours.  If someone else attempts to make a cigar pen, then they will have to use tools and techniques to make it theirs.

Another example:  I fell in love a few years ago with Johnny U's feather  blanks.  They are like "wow."  So I said "self, why not make your  own?"  So I scoured the internet for a tutorial, found one, edited it,  etc.  I was new to the site and uploaded it here, which IMHO, looking  back now, was the wrong thing to do.  I infringed on another member's  (and now friend) lively hood and unique ability to create something  beautiful.  

So, in my smart*** way I thought I was all set.  I ordered two dead,  skinned pheasants from Ebay.  They came (and totally grossed out my wife  but my two black labs really wanted to eat them).  I pulled off all the  feathers.  I tried to make the blanks.................and failed  miserably.  I could NOT for the life of me get it down.  They would  stick out, fluff out, fly all over.  They would get fuzz all over the  tubes, little pieces would go up my nose and make me sneeze...........

So, I bit the bullet and IM'd John.  I told him that I tried, failed,  and could he use all these feathers.  He graciously said yes.   And you  know what he did?  About a month later I got 5, yes 5 sets of pen blanks  in the mail as a thank you.  That is graciousness.  

So that's my story (and maybe confession too.)  We can try, but don't  always expect success.  YOU came up with a wonderful pen, and you are  the only one who can make it look that with, especially with that ash.   And that's perfectly ok.  I can try to make one, and if I do, it won't  be exactly like yours.  You provided the inspiration, some of the  knowledge and the desire.  That's gift enough.


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## NYWoodturner (Apr 9, 2012)

Martin; 

Gotta say that this is the most intriguing thread i’ve read on any forum. It’s intriguing to me not because I can relate in any way to having a unique style or process that i feel protective of, but because to me it comes down partly to leadership. I think thats the one thing that has not been touched on so far. This may come across random - but my mind is tracking faster than my fingers.... so please bear with me - It will come together by the end.
	I’ve been in my industry  - same company for 31 years now. It’s second nature to me and quite honestly not a challenge. To keep myself in the game I have taken on developing leaders as the piece of the business that does challenge me. It never stops, pays dividends and each person is a unique challenge.  
	I view your question from a leadership point of view. There are two types of leaders - Appointed leaders - given a title by the boss and put in charge with or without merits and a Chosen leader. Those are chosen by their peers as the one they trust to ask questions, get honest answers from, they trust to follow and wish to mimic. (Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery) Those chosen leaders often find themselves in a leadership role never having asked for it or wanted it. They are  -like it or not - leaders of  their peers and will remain so until they lose that honor by their actions.
I have been reading this forum for about 3 years now - even though I just joined and I believe you to be a chosen leader. Even though we have never met or spoken, I get the feeling you enjoy that too - (as you should - it’s an honor and well deserved ) you seem to answer questions openly and honestly. Thus the internal struggle. 
	Every new crop of young leaders in my business contains at least one joker who thinks he has the world by the tail and is just going to ask everything and put the onus on me to “spoon feed” him. Those types are easy to spot and I always take the approach of telling them to explain what they tried and why they think it failed so that I may help them learn to figure things out. Vey rarely does that go beyond one round. The ones that are trying and say “I tried this, this and that and still can’t figure t out” I will give all the time they need. They are showing an active interest in their own development. I am developing leaders, not leeches.  	
	I just see a lot of parallels in your question and my leadership teachings. I suspect at the end of the day that you are a leader and pretty good at it. Sounds to me your conflict comes with withholding information. I would say that a chosen leader status would sell more tutorial DVD’s. I think it’s something you will just have to “walk” up to the point where you want to be.

Case i point: You started this post in November and its still alive and kicking ! I don’t think had I posed the question it would have gone this far...

Sorry for the length !  

Regards;

Scott


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## Rob73 (Apr 10, 2012)

I think if the person is trying to make a living off pens they will probably not give out any trade secrets.  However, someone that does it for 'fun' may share everything they know.


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## MartinPens (Apr 10, 2012)

Rob73 said:
			
		

> I think if the person is trying to make a living off pens they will probably not give out any trade secrets.  However, someone that does it for 'fun' may share everything they know.



Very nicely put Rob. If you are a hobbyist and move into trying to do a business, it takes on a different flavor. Not everyone likes that flavor. That's ok.

Sent from my iPad using Forum Runner


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## IPD_Mr (Apr 11, 2012)

Boy wouldn't Eagle have a page full for this thread.   :biggrin:  For me it is simple because of what Eagle brought to the table. When it really got right down to it he didn't mind sharing how things were done. What he despised was all the people asking for a tutorial so that could follow steps 1-30 and produce the exact same thing that he may have spent months on with dozens of failures. It was kind of insulting. He would often say, "Tell me how you would do, I might like your way better". What was great about this approach was it got people to think and learn. Sometimes this would lead to a better way of doing things for both parties. But what was most important was you learned why you had to do things a certain way, almost as if you experienced and learned from the mistakes. Doing things this way progresses the craft much more than a tutorial. A real good example is George's section tutorial. Yes you can follow instructions and make a great functioning section. But questions of, why you use this size tap and die and how you come up with this diameter of tenon to thread, are lost.  I would hope that everyone who uses a tutorial (including myself) stops and thinks about why you do something this way or that.  Even better is if they start up a conversation on it.  That is what leads to innovations.  Collaborations can be quite enjoyable and fulfilling.

So to those that choose not to share, I respect that. For those that want to learn and not just follow instruction, I respect that. For those that demand a tutorial, I hope that you were able to understand where I am coming from in this post and can respect that as well.

Martin - This has not been a can of worm but rather a very good thread. Good job by everyone for playing nice on this one. It is a subject that can easily cause tempers to flair.  :good:


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## chriselle (Apr 11, 2012)

I'm diggin this thread Martin.  Just like everyone else who saw your pens for the first time I was like....How the hell did he do that?  That's so cool..

I say don't divulge too much ONLY out of the fun, intrigue and mystery it creates in having a "secret sauce".  Knowing EVERYthing is boring.  

As for those who spill their guts....:biggrin:.:beer:  I spend most of my time here looking through the advanced and SOYP sections.  I've finally gone kitless and appreciate so much guys like George, Fred, Dennis and Chuck for their guidance.  My reason for going kitless is for the most part as the missing link between my urushi and a worthy canvas.  Thank you.

Speaking of Urushi......figure it out for yourselves...!!:tongue:  

:wink: Kidding of course.:wink:


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## PenPal (Apr 11, 2012)

Martin,

How to eat a can of worms.

Step one exhibit on this forum.

Step two try to isolate your work from others.

Step three realise in your own words how you recently asked someone else how?

Step four now we are all doing what you are doing understand others.

Now to show any pen is an invitation not a commandment to show and tell, love to see your next pens with or without ash. Gave up smoking 50 yrs ago.

Regret the smilies are not displayed (do not know how)

Had a belly laugh many times reading the replies. All the best for the rest of the year.

Kind regards Peter.


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## OLDMAN5050 (Apr 11, 2012)

If I was making a living with the cigar replica pen I would not give out my secrets.....I would apply for a patten. 
If it is a hobby then why not share? Just my thoughts.


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