# Thanks Mudder



## GaryMGg (May 17, 2007)

Since you closed down t-p-w-u and I don't have your email addy, this is one place I think you'll see this.
I want to thank you for the work you did while that forum was up and active. I know it's lots of work and it was a fun other place to hang out. I, for one, will miss it.
I simply want to show my appreciation for your efforts.
Regards,
Gary


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## PenWorks (May 17, 2007)

What ?? I just made my secound post there the other day. 
I hope it wasn't my fault. [V] I was about to have a thing for the PR Princess. []


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## Jerryconn (May 18, 2007)

> _Originally posted by GaryMGg_
> <br />Since you closed down t-p-w-u and I don't have your email addy, this is one place I think you'll see this.
> I want to thank you for the work you did while that forum was up and active. I know it's lots of work and it was a fun other place to hang out. I, for one, will miss it.
> I simply want to show my appreciation for your efforts.
> ...



I'll second that


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## ed4copies (May 18, 2007)

Yeah,

If Anthony would have been there, Cav & I could have corrected HIS mistakes and avoided our big BLOWUPS!!![:0][:0][:0][:0]

(Yes, this IS a JOKE for those who are NOT sure!)


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## gerryr (May 18, 2007)

Blowups????  I think those were just "dustups" or maybe even "lintups."[]


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## wdcav1952 (May 18, 2007)

I just got in from the road and saw this.  I for one will definitely miss Scott's site.  I have no idea what caused the closing of the site.  I will even forgo the opportunity to blame it on Anthony and/or Ed.


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## ed4copies (May 18, 2007)

Anthony,

PR Princess isn't a member here, but she says you taught her everything she knows!! (except spelling!!)[:0][:0][:0][][]

She also wishes "Mudder" all the best!!  You have no idea how many special creations she has made that were meant to "bring spice to TPWUs"!!


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## cozee (May 18, 2007)

Though short lived, thanks for the site Scott!!


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## Draken (May 18, 2007)

So where's the bald bird going to hang out now that TPWU is no more?


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## Paul in OKC (May 18, 2007)

> _Originally posted by Draken_
> <br />So where's the bald bird going to hang out now that TPWU is no more?


My []thought as well


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## stevers (May 18, 2007)

I agree with all above. I will miss the site. Thank you Scott for the effort and I'm sorry it didn't work out for you, and us. I was throughly enjoying myself.


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## Dario (May 20, 2007)

> _Originally posted by Paul in OKC_
> <br />
> 
> 
> ...



I know where []


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## GaryMGg (May 20, 2007)

> _Originally posted by Dario_
> <br />
> 
> 
> ...



Perhaps ..... HERE?!?!?!?
This'd be a cool place.


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## TellicoTurning (May 20, 2007)

I didn't get over there often, but enjoyed the diversion.. thanks Scott and all..


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## Dario (May 20, 2007)

> _Originally posted by GaryMGg_
> <br />Since you closed down t-p-w-u and I don't have your email addy, this is one place I think you'll see this.
> I want to thank you for the work you did while that forum was up and active. I know it's lots of work and it was a fun other place to hang out. I, for one, will miss it.
> I simply want to show my appreciation for your efforts.
> ...



Ditto.

I am sorry for not being active there...but the 6 other forums I visit keep me busy enough.

Re: Eagle, not here but he just posted another amazing pen made from a blank only Eagle can make (that I know).


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## GaryMGg (May 20, 2007)

I saw those. Simply amazing craftsmanship. When we see that, we see inside the mind of a genius! []

Gary


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## LEAP (May 20, 2007)

> _Originally posted by GaryMGg_
> <br />I saw those. Simply amazing craftsmanship. When we see that, we see inside the mind of a genius! []
> 
> Gary



Funny but when ever I hear "mind of a genius" all I can think of is some kind of Rube Goldberg machine.


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## Mudder (May 20, 2007)

Thank you everyone for the words of support.


I started the site because I thought that a different stlye of management and administration philosophy could succeed.

It failed; and full responsibility for it's failure rests with me, and me alone. The last 100 days has taught me many valuable lessons. I've made quite a few new friends, lost a couple of old friends, and have seen irreparable harm come to another friendship. The promise that I made to myself was that if it did not work as I had envisioned I would shut it down before any harm could be done to the penturning community in general. I'm quite sure that Jeff could verify this statement as I told him this via email when I first started my site.


The IAP was the first penturning site that I discovered when I began turning pens and this will always be a special place for me. As with all communities there will be some that you like and find that you get along quite well with, and there will be others that you dislike and find yourself arguing with but that happens in all communities. We should all remember why we come here and try not to make it; or take it personally.

At first I had thought of asking Jeff to delete my account or to change my name to something that would not be as recognizable but I realized that it would not change anything. Instead I have decided to handle it a different way.

I will not run.
I will not hide.
And I'm not going to go away, so you're stuck with me []


I never wanted the business on my site to spill over into other sites and I tried to keep the business of other sites out of mine. I hope that this thread will remain positive.

My only intent for posting in this thread is to thank those who have wished me well and to hopefully bring closure to this event. Now it is time for me to refocus my efforts on penmaking and to help the community wherever I can.


Thank you,

Scott Hettel


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## wudnhed (May 20, 2007)

Scott, never joined your site but did frequent it because I "knew" so many of the members.    I don't know what caused you to close it down but my point is, I'm glad we're stuck with you!


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## jaywood1207 (May 20, 2007)

I didn't post a lot in your site Scott but did frequent it several times a day.  I am not sure what happened but I enjoyed the time I did spend there.  Thanks.


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## jeffj13 (May 21, 2007)

Scott,

I didn't post a lot on your site, but I was a regular visitor.  I wouldn't call it a failure.  There was a good exchange of ideas, good company and some great looking pens.

I thought you did a great job running it and I will miss it.

jeff


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## jeff (May 21, 2007)

Just curious...

Was Scott's site better in some way or just "different" ??  I can understand the appeal of somewhere new and different, but was there some fundamental difference between there and here? jeffj12 said "There was a good exchange of ideas, good company and some great looking pens." and isn't that exactly what we have here?

We're always trying to improve this place, and if there is some good that can come out of Scott's site closing down, let's find it and apply it here.


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## LEAP (May 21, 2007)

Jeff, Scotts sight was very much like this one, just a little different atmosphere. Kind of like a bunch of good buddies who are also co workers. At work they enjoy themselves have a good time, exchange ideas, swap tall tales etc. You get the picture. After work some of them gather for a few drinks, things loosen up a little jokes flow more freely and conversation tends to take a different direction. Scotts sight was kind of like the IAP after the second scotch. The posters seemed more willing to loosen their neck ties and joke around with the smaller group. I would imagine it was much like the early days of the IAP. Thanks to you both.


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## gerryr (May 21, 2007)

I think Phil got it pretty much correct.  There seemed to be an atmosphere of foolishness, for lack of a better term, that existed there.  Topics almost always got hijacked by goofy remarks aimed at one person or another, usually Ed and Cav, but it was all in fun and I believe everyone knew that.  It was fun and enjoyable while it lasted and I miss it.


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## GaryMGg (May 21, 2007)

> _Originally posted by jeff_
> <br />Just curious...
> Was Scott's site better in some way or just "different" ??...



Other than the fun mentioned above, the one thing I found at TPWU that's lacking everywhere else I visit is the <b>serious criticism</b> of a piece of work.
SOYP! and SYS are fine for admiration but there's no critical feedback -- it's not that it isn't permitted, more like it's just socially impermissible.

I can understand a lot of people not wanting a stranger to say anything bad about their work, but having a place where IF it's asked for it'll be received is valuable, imho.

Before I was involved here as a pen maker, there was a thread regarding a forum for critiquing other's work when asked.
In my mind, so long as people say what they think without malice it would be a valuable discussion arena. IF I'm going to grow my skills to where I want to go, it'll require that someone is willing to say, "In my opinion, here's what's wrong with this piece of work: ..."

My $.02,
Gary


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## gerryr (May 21, 2007)

Gary,
Unfortunately, this is a horse that has been flogged repeatedly and ground into the dust.  Anyone posting in SOYP can ask for a critique of their work.  It's then up to those viewing the work to actually provide some constructive feedback.  But, critiquing a pen from a photo is not easy, in fact it is extremely difficult, even from the best of photos.  If the photo isn't first rate, how can anyone critique it?


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## ed4copies (May 21, 2007)

Gary,

In a forum this size (IAP), that's dangerous.  Thin-skins can be punctured and you don't know it until AFTER it happens.

FWIW


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## Draken (May 21, 2007)

I went to that site to see the latest works from Eagle, since he isn't here anymore.  That is also why I went to TPS, until he was banned from that site as well.


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## GaryMGg (May 21, 2007)

> _Originally posted by ed4copies_
> <br />...In a forum this size (IAP), that's dangerous.  Thin-skins can be punctured and you don't know it until AFTER it happens....


Yep, that's a sentence I edited out of my preview 'cause it seemed to me to be redundant. I originally thought to write: having a place where IF it's asked for it'll be received is valuable, imho. However, some folks are thin-skinned and that could be problematic.

I know it's been flogged but it's the ONE THING that I really see missing in an online forum. That's why I thought it should be a place where negative comments are only made when a poster requests it.

I guess I'll keep hounding y'all in private for serious criticism. I've got a ways to go before I feel like I'm running with pen making rather than crawling and walking. []


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## skiprat (May 21, 2007)

Jeff, there is nothing wrong with this site. I love it here. When Scott's site was was first introduced to us, I was one of the first to agree with you when you jokingly asked 'why would anyone want to leave here?' However, IAP could be a victim of it's own success. With so many members it is all too easy to say something that will accidently upset someone somewhere. I know as I've done it a few times.
After my last mistake, which was a bit like going into a bikers club and shouting that you hate bikes, which although I believed in, in hindsight I should have kept quiet.
 To let things cool down, I took a break from this site. But I still wanted to talk shop so later joined Scott's site, albeit for one post.

I guess when a club has so many members you have to cater for the majority. Lots has been said about Eagle, good and bad. The fact remains, that he does two things better than most of us here. First his work has inspired more people than will admit and second, he tells it like it is. He is often his own worst enemy though and rises to the bait too easily. I hope he finds a place to show his work.
If I find out where he is, I'll still watch his work unfold.

Perhaps if people settled their differences ' off air' like Eagle and I did, then there would be less fighting.

The only thing about this site that doesn't do it any favours is that all topics are open to the public. Casual discussion, I think should be veiwable to members only.

Just my t'pence worth[]


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## Texatdurango (May 21, 2007)

> _Originally posted by jeff_
> <br />Just curious...Was Scott's site better in some way or just "different" ??  ....... let's find it and apply it here.


Being a newbie to both sites, perhaps I can give a different perspective.

I visit these sites mainly to learn techniques and have the more experienced turned evaluate my work and tell me where I can improve or that I'm on track.

Here, as an example, I posted about a pen I made asking for design comments and had 278 views with 9 comments, three of which were mine.  On the other forum I would have had 15 views and about the same number of replies, with the majority being honest critiques like... "nice pen but the colors clash"  or "not a popular shape", etc.

I'm not basing everything on the above example, but in my eyes the above "stats" tell me that the majority of turners here don't have the time to mess with the new kids on the block, or that it's wasting their time or beneath them answering the "same old questions" over and over again.  

I think this has a lot do do with this being an older forum with many members being friends for years, and just like in real life, it's easier to group with those you know than venture out and meet new folks.

The only way to change that if for everyone to think back to the day they posted their first pen or asked their first basic question and remember how thankful they were when they got answers to their questions.

'Course I could be wrong! []

George


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## alamocdc (May 21, 2007)

George, I fully understand and appreciate what you are saying. However, as has been mentioned above, many others might not take as kindly to those types of criticisms. Yes, there are those of us who openly ask for such remarks, but nost others do not. And providing such when not asked is begging trouble. Unfortunately, even when asked for it can be damaging. JMO


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## Mikey (May 21, 2007)

Jeff, The one thing I really liked was that it showed new posts like this site, but you could click on an icon and be taken to the actual new posts instead of scrolling down until you found the new comments. Other than that, most times, I really saw no reason why I should visit one more site. -Oh, and the ability to ignore a user was sweet and something I wish every forum site had.

Nothing against Scott, because the site was set up nice. However, the content seemed to be all the same and in my honest opinion, it seemed like that site was created just so that he could allow a certain friend to post once again. I know I am probably wrong, but that is the vibe I got from my visits there.


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## Texatdurango (May 21, 2007)

> _Originally posted by alamocdc_
> <br />George, I fully understand and appreciate what you are saying. However, as has been mentioned above, many others might not take as kindly to those types of criticisms. Yes, there are those of us who openly ask for such remarks, but nost others do not. And providing such when not asked is begging trouble. Unfortunately, even when asked for it can be damaging. JMO


The way I see it, we are all over 21 (or close to it), fairly intelligent (or close to it) and if one chooses to post a photo or idea and <b>ASKS</b> for comments "good or bad", then that individual should be prepared for what he <b>ASKS</b> for.  I have never bought into this "thinned skin" argument because it's ALWAYS ones choice to post a question or not.

If I post a photo where there is a gap between the blank and mating pen part or you can see 150 grit sand marks around the blank then I should fully expect someone to say... "It ain't supposed to be like that, here's how to avoid that blunder next time!"

And THIS problem, over time, turns members away from giving honest, frank, to-the-point comments and is replaced with "that's a nice pen"... when it's really not and the newbie thinks he's getting the hang of it, when he's not!

I've been told that I'm too abrubt at times, maybe so.[]

George


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## Texatdurango (May 21, 2007)

> _Originally posted by gerryr_
> <br />Gary,
> Unfortunately, this is a horse that has been flogged repeatedly and ground into the dust.  Anyone posting in SOYP can ask for a critique of their work.  It's then up to those viewing the work to actually provide some constructive feedback.  But, critiquing a pen from a photo is not easy, in fact it is extremely difficult, even from the best of photos.  If the photo isn't first rate, how can anyone critique it?


Jerry, With all due respect, I don't think that's entirely correct.  As I eluded to in my previous post, one asking for honest feed back STILL isn't likely to get honest answers here because everyone has been "detuned" over time with their replies and the "politically correct" response is now just "nice pen".  Maybe too many fire fights erupted over time due to some thin skinned folks having their feelings hurt... who knows.

I can only speak for myself, but if I ever post a pen photo with the writing tip sticking out the wrong end or a gold clip on a black titanium body, I'd sure appreciate someone telling me not to assemble another pen without my bifocals!

George


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## alamocdc (May 21, 2007)

George, we're singin' the same song, pal. Which is why I comment on few pens in SOYP of late.[]


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## Dario (May 21, 2007)

> _Originally posted by alamocdc_
> <br />George, we're singin' the same song, pal. Which is why I comment on few pens in SOYP of late.[]



Me too.  I am not snobbing anyone but unless I see a title (or person []) that intrigues me, I hardly view any SOYP post anymore...I ran out of "politically correct" things to say!

Same reason I got a generic welcome to all members [].


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## ed4copies (May 21, 2007)

Most of the pens are "me too", the responses are "Me too" and no one is offended!!!

ME, TOO!!![][][]


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## GaryMGg (May 21, 2007)

> _Originally posted by ed4copies_
> <br />...and no one is offended!!!
> ME, TOO!!![][][]


I take offense at that. Justice, give me justice! [!]
[] []


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## Texatdurango (May 21, 2007)

Wow, I didn't know we could take offense around here...

Me too![]


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## jeff (May 21, 2007)

Could someone give me an example of the political correctness that stifles comments in SOYP?

My recollection is that we shut down the Critiques forum because of arguments between a few members.


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## gerryr (May 21, 2007)

I think maybe a whole new topic is needed to talk about this.[]

Edited to clarify meaning of "this" - discussion of critical comments about pens.


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## ed4copies (May 21, 2007)

Gerry,

It's been discussed "ad nauseum".  The discussion on the forum leads to e-mails to the management which leads to problems.

Why start it again.  Learn from history.[][][]


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## gerryr (May 21, 2007)

Ed,
I know that, you know that, but there are some who don't.  This topic was about Scott's site and it seems to have been waylaid.


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## ed4copies (May 21, 2007)

You're right.  Sorry.

I liked Scott's site, how about you?

(Now, I tried to get it back on topic, but if I succeed, my place is to "shut up" as part of "middle management".)[]


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## Texatdurango (May 21, 2007)

> _Originally posted by jeff_
> <br />Could someone give me an example of the political correctness that stifles comments in SOYP?
> 
> My recollection is that we shut down the Critiques forum because of arguments between a few members.



Jeff, I don't think there is one thread in particular that can be pointed to as an example, instead look at all the photo threads and read the replies in them.  I think most folks are very nice with their comments and I personally haven't seen anyone make any negative comments on anyones work yet.   

I think that, in itself is the answer to your question.  Surely of all the pens displayed and all the members viewing them, odds are that there are at least a few pens around that could use a little more work or a few folks that just don't care for what they see... but you wouldn't know it from reading the reviews.  Perhaps everyone is gun shy or afraid of being branded a trouble maker.  That is what I meant about being politically correct.

I think it's a shame that "_arguments between a few members_" has stiffled straight forward, honest replies and robbed others from learning from their own mistakes or gaining knowledge from the seasoned veterans here.  But what do I know, I wasn't around to see what it was like.

George


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## GaryMGg (May 21, 2007)

Ed & Gerry, y'all are so bad. Hijackin' this poor thread []
It's good, I think it's gone in a good direction and Mudder got thanked too.

For me, I'm gonna try a couple of things: posting less in SOYP while still uploading to my album. And, when I post to SOYPs, I'm gonna let'cha know I want real critical feedback -- I don't need ya to aim the leaf blower my way. My thick skin will protect me []

Heck, I may even intrude on ya with a PM  if it's a pen I think is real close to top-notch.[]

Gary


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## Mudder (May 21, 2007)

> _Originally posted by gerryr_
> <br />This topic was about Scott's site and it seems to have been waylaid.



I donâ€™t mind that the thread got waylaid as long as something constructive comes of it.

I would like to share my thoughts as to why a critiques forum is doomed to fail.

Not everyone has the same quality of photographic equipment nor do they possess the same photographic skills.

Sometimes different plating photographed from different angles will give the illusion of poor fit. (How many times have we heard members say that another memberâ€™s pen looks better in person?) Chrome is son that seems to cause this.

Sometimes we can hide obvious flaws can be hidden by our photographic technique.

We have some members who have a disdain for anything but wood and every acrylic pen got the comment â€œIt looks like a 29 cent pen from Wal-Martâ€ Where is the constructive criticism in that type of remark? Others have a similar dislike for a particular kit and personal opinion is too often given as criticism and I do not believe that personal opinion should enter into a critique. 

It is often very hard to take when you are quite proud of something and another person does not share that enthusiasm. 

Sometimes it is not possible to give an honest opinion from a single photograph.

I could come up with a lot more reasons but Iâ€™m pressed for time.


How about a few ideas as to how it could work?

Could pictures be taken using a guideline like a neutral background for example?

How about if the pictures were sent to a moderator and posted anonymously?

Probably a very bad idea but what if the replies were posted anonymously?

What if the critiques forum was closed and you had to request to get in?

Here are a few possibilities; lets hear opinions form more of our members.


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## gerryr (May 21, 2007)

OK, with Scott's blessing to the direction of this, I will add a few comments about what makes a critique forum so difficult.

Starting with the photos.  I haven't counted it up nor do I plan to, but I'm guessing that maybe 1/2 the photos in SOYP are not adequate to really judge what a pen looks like.  A large percentage of the not so great photos are so dark it's sometimes hard to tell what it is.  I've even seen photos that were just plain out of focus.  You can't say "Sorry for the bad photos, but please critique this pen."  If the white balance is off, I personally have trouble getting around that and with the cost of digital camera sophistication dropping daily, there really isn't any excuse for it.  I think the same applies to a light box.  I built mine out of PVC pipe for less than $10 and good CFL bulbs are available at HD and Lowe's at very good prices.  More than one photograph would really be needed, probably a couple of extreme closeups in addition to the overall photo.

I personally think Scott's idea of photos being posted by a moderator would work.  I also think guidelines would need to be established about the background for the photos, like a plain white or beige background.  Too often the backgrounds are very confusing and even distracting.  I don't think comments should be anonymous, either you are willing to stand by your comment or you should not be allowed to make it.  I'm not sure I understand about a closed forum that you had to request to get in.


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## ed4copies (May 21, 2007)

Gerry,

At least for a moment, I will take the other side of your argument.  I did not "Major in penturning", completely prepared to "Minor in photography". 

 And, having helped Scott with his site, "approving" members had a time lag.  Meanwhile the member sits and wonders if he or she isn't living up to your standards, before you even MEET.  How much more would you wonder if you sent a picture to a moderator panel at noon, your time, and no one posted or got back to you for several hours??  And, what if the moderators think your picture sucks, so they don't REALLY WANT to post it for all to see???

And suppose the moderator panel has a certain member they don't like?  Will they then not post his/her work, as asked?

Just a few of the questions that anonymity might raise.



Besides, we all know your mother wears combat boots and your grandfather's whereabouts were UNKNOWN at the time of Abraham Lincoln's attendance at a certain play!!!  But, YOU are a nice guy[8D][8D]


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## mdburn_em (May 21, 2007)

I like the idea of a critique forum.  I don't like the idea of any anonymity in that forum at all.  I think anonymity carries with it the potential for huge problems.  The more disclosure in a forum like this, the more people will be reminded to mind their p's and q's.  
I also like the SOYP forum.  I will browse to see new pens but never read the comments.  They're always the same thing.
Critiques could be of both the pen and the photography.  
A certain number of posts (1000?) could be a requirement for critiquing in the thread.  Is that possible?  Another thought is asking and receiving permission to post critiques.  You have to prove that you know what you're talking about.  Don't you have to go through an approval process to become a member of the PMG?  If the intent of the thread is constructive criticism, why not here?  
That being said, I did enjoy the other forum but honestly I spent a lot more time here because of the variety.


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## Texatdurango (May 21, 2007)

white balance... light boxes... CFL bulbs... No wonder I'm not getting it, I'm in way over my head![]

I thought you made a pen, shined it up, put it on a clean piece of fancy cloth, snapped a photo of it then hit upload.

Heck, I don't even think my poor ole Kodak 4 megapixel camera knows if it's out of white balance or not!  Is there a dipstick somewhere to check?  

I got a new scroll saw today so I think I'll go out to the shop and tinker.

George


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## gerryr (May 21, 2007)

OK, I guess I'll get back into this, possibly against my intuition.

I don't like the idea of a "panel" of moderators.  I think if there were 2 or 3 people who are reasonably proficient at making and photographing pens, any of them could decide to post a photo.  The photo could be mailed to something like "critique at penturners dot org" and the email could be forwarded to however many moderators there were.  Whoever had the time could then post it.  That should take the wind out of your sails, Ed.[}]

As far as the maker being anonymous, I think it has an advantage.  Some people might be intimidated by the maker's reputation and be afraid to post anything critical.  The comments would not be anonymous.  I think that having the maker anonymous would actually help people behave, since they could be commenting on a pen made by their buddy.  Posts like "That's a crappy pen" should just be deleted since that doesn't offer anything constructive.  Comments should be limited to constructive criticism, no questions about how something was done.  If the maker wanted to identify him/herself after say a week or so, that should be OK.

I think any registered user should be allowed to post.  I think it would be self limiting.  I know it was a long time after I registered before I ever posted a comment about someone's pen.  It was even longer before I had the nerve to post a pen in SOYP.  I don't think people just getting started would post comments in a critiques forum.

As far as needing a minor in photography, tough nuggies, Ed![]  Seriously, nobody can expect constructive comments about their work, if the picture is out of focus, under or over exposed or the white balance is off.  Providing constructive comments is hard enough from just a photo, even a very good one.  It's virtually impossible from a bad photo.


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## Mikey (May 21, 2007)

gerry, I wouldn't worry. I've seen lots of crap in senior penmakers' albums. I don't think we need anonymous posts for critiques, but I think we need a set of standards for posting photos. I too am one who feels that posts should not be made with fuzzy photos or dark exposures. I also think that any post made with looks goo, nice work should be deleted immediately. if it is good enough to get a positive comment, post why it's positive or either don't post or post why it could look better in your opinion. if people can't take some constructive criticism, then maybe they should listen to their significant other and not post their work for everyone else in the world to see. It may seem a bit harsh, but we all come here to learn and you won't learn a thing with a bunch of nice work comments.


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## Texatdurango (May 21, 2007)

Another poster suggested 1000 posts as a benchmark to allow members to critique others work.  That, in itself is nothing to judge a persons judgment by.

In an RV forum that I have been a member of for almost five years, I have often seen discussions where the number of posts erroneously are used to judge a persons "value" to the forum.  Some members can rack up hundreds of posts just telling jokes while the most seasoned RV'er with sage advice might have just joined the forum with only a handful of posts.

I don't see the value of hiding ones identity just to offer a fellow member their opinion of their work.  

I've just gotta ask... Is it possible that we are making way too big of a deal over critiquing pens?  It's not like we're posting photos of our wives, asking if they're ugly or not! 

George


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## alamocdc (May 22, 2007)

Hey, leave my wife out of it. [}][]



> ...I have often seen discussions where the number of posts erroneously are used to judge a persons "value" to the forum.



Like me, Dario and JimGo, for instance.[]


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## cozee (May 22, 2007)

What I see that causes controversy at times is the definition difference and perception skew between a critique and a criticism. Both are very similar with one main difference. A criticism is meant to disqualify; to tear down; to demean by pointing out flaws. A critique points out flaws but with an objective manner, that which is to help to better one's ability. 

If the poster truly is wanting to better their ability, they will embrace the critique and overlook the harshness of a criticism yet search it for any truth. If the poster is simply wanting praise, then anything but appears as criticism. I have seen this not only from new turners here but also from seasoned and well established craftsmen/women.


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## GaryMGg (May 22, 2007)

IMO, several things cause controversy and most are avoidable. People don't write clearly and their meaning doesn't come thru. Then the reader adds their personal baggage to what's written, twists it even more, and <b>whammo</b> insults start flying.
If we're gonna have useful critiques it requires NOT ONLY good photos but posts that are specific and explicit in what's communicated, folks who will re-read their posts before hitting "Submit Reply", and rhino-skin. The old adage is approriate here: If you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen.

I, for one, will take all the harsh criticism y'all can dish out on my work if it helps me become a master at the game. []

Gary


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## mdburn_em (May 22, 2007)

I was the one that posted an arbitrary number.  I do realize that posts have nothing to do with ability.  Having just gone over the 200 post mark, I'm living proof of that.  I did post the picture of the 5 cigars but mainly because 3 of the blanks were Ed's and they're great.  I was simply suggesting a possible qualifying benchmark for being permitted to critique someones work.  

alamocdc, I would be proud to have any of the 3 you mentioned critique my work.  You just have to wait until I get better.


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## DFM (May 22, 2007)

After reading this topic, I have a suggestion regarding critiques that may be a workable solution for the aforementioned concerns.  

First, submit a photo on any background to a proctor which will have the ability to submit the pen photo to a panel of jurists with the submission information regarding the pen.  

Second, the jurist panel selected from a pool of volunteers would review the photo of the pen and submit a critique of both the pen and photo.

Third, upon receipt of the critiques and with the approval of the pen maker, the critiques and the photo of the pen be posted into a separate forum for discussion of both the pen and the critiques.

I think this will provide a pen maker with a constructive critique of his pen making  and photographic abilities, give the pen maker the option to post the pen and critiques to the comments of the general forum population and give everyone including the jury the ability to review the process and comment on everything.

This would require a commitment of a lot of people, but it would be more helpful than the "nice pen" comments that are in the SOYP category.

DFM


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## GaryMGg (May 22, 2007)

Donald,
I think your post is too restrictive. I believe that anyone who sees the pen posted should
be able to critique what they see. Look at some of the folks who post infrequently yet do really fine work: Lou, Christian, Barry B., YOU! ... I could on and on.
What if the jurist panel doesn't include folks whose opinion I value?
What if the new guy to IAP happens to be a natural, like George (Texatdurango)?

To my way of seeing it, if someone is willing to ask for critiques, they ought to be able to accept a serious critique from anyone. And anyone who abuses the privilege of critiquing would be banned from posting.

Gary


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## jeff (May 22, 2007)

Donald and Gary point out two of the problems with a structured critiques forum. #1 Anything that makes everyone happy with be a huge effort to administer. The jury is a nice idea, but getting volunteers to stick with something that requires a lot of work is a problem. #2 It's impossible to make everyone happy!

If someone can come up with an idea on the mechanics of running a critiques forum that that a large percentage of people can agree on, we'll give it another try.

Lets discuss here: http://www.penturners.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=24584


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## stevers (May 23, 2007)

> _Originally posted by jeff_
> <br />Just curious...
> 
> Was Scott's site better in some way or just "different" ??  I can understand the appeal of somewhere new and different, but was there some fundamental difference between there and here? jeffj12 said "There was a good exchange of ideas, good company and some great looking pens." and isn't that exactly what we have here?
> ...



Jeff, A little late. but I wanted to give my two cents on your question. 
I liked Scott's site because it was smaller and more personal. I was one of the first couple dozen to register and that made me feel good, to get in on the ground floor of the site. I felt a part of something new and it made me feel more like one of the guys. This site is wonderfully and I receive tons of great info and have met several great people,,,,,,buuuuuuut, sometimes I feel a bit lost in the crowd. Thats just me, and I except it. 
You do a wonderful job here and I fully enjoy my time with all of you. 
I hope this was all taken in the best way and you understand what I was trying to say.


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## stevers (May 23, 2007)

> _Originally posted by Mudder_
> <br />
> 
> At first I had thought of asking Jeff to delete my account or to change my name to something that would not be as recognizable but I realized that it would not change anything. Instead I have decided to handle it a different way.
> ...



Scott, 
I wanted to post this separately from the one above in hopes you will see it. "Don't" run and "Don't" hide. What you tried to do was great. Never apologize for doing the best you can. 
I will miss the site, but I will go on. And we know we will be able to contact you here if we choose. So don't let it get to you and don't feel the need to disappear. I for one, and I hope the rest of us, hold no ill feeling of any sort toward you. 
Thank you again for the effort.


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## Snazzypens (May 26, 2007)

Scott Sorry to see your sight to get shut down. You definitely did fail. The short time I was there I enjoyed the honesty there. I know for me posting some pictures here fear kicks in with being so photographic disabled but there you guys commented on the pen not my photo. that just my opinion but I want to say especially to mudder..THANKS For the effort you did put in there and Good on you for staying who you are. Good on you
Toni


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