# Source for olive wood



## Dan Masshardt (Apr 23, 2013)

Does anybody have a good US source for Brthlehem olive wood blanks at a reasonable price?  

Seems like many vendors are either frequently out if stock or pretty expensive.  

I need it to be pretty nicely figured.  

A lot of it on eBay is shipped from Jerusalem and reasonable but longer ship times.  

I found one eBay seller in New York...

Just curious.  

Thanks,

Dan.


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## Holz Mechaniker (Apr 24, 2013)

other than paying a lot for shipping, there is always eBay.  
and expect up to two to three weeks to get to you.


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## EricJS (Apr 24, 2013)

Dan,

I've purchased them from "R and B Crafts." They were very nice quality & shipped within a few days.


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## BKelley (Apr 24, 2013)

I buy from Jerusalem.  Yes, the wait is a little longer than buying State side, but if you buy in quantity you get good prices and some nice grain.

Ben


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## r1237h (Apr 24, 2013)

I get mine from Woodturningz.


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## mikespenturningz (Apr 24, 2013)

I agree with Ben. I have ordered twice from Jerusalem and have not been let down. It really doesn't take that long for them to get here either.


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## redbulldog (Apr 24, 2013)

Exotic Blanks.com 
Fast delivery one of our members Ed Brown and a very good site.
Be very careful they spoil us with their information, help and outstanding service.


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## monophoto (Apr 24, 2013)

Olives are produced in both California and Texas in the US, and in a variety of countries in the Mediterranean area.

There was a thread a while back that asserted that a lot of the "Bethlehem Olive Wood" sold over the internet is actually grown in the US, and then shipped to Israel where it is cut into blanks for sale to woodturners.  The post claimed that it is illegal to cut down olive trees in Israel, so the only wood that is actually sourced there comes from branches that have been pruned.  I don't know if that's true, but the point is that there is some suspicion that "Bethlehem Olive Wood" may be primarily a marketing thing.


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## gimpy (Apr 24, 2013)

I have yet to order from these folks, but I don't think anyone can beat there prices


Olive Wood - Welcome to Bethlehemolivewood.net!


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## robutacion (Apr 24, 2013)

monophoto said:


> Olives are produced in both California and Texas in the US, and in a variety of countries in the Mediterranean area.
> 
> There was a thread a while back that asserted that a lot of the "Bethlehem Olive Wood" sold over the internet is actually grown in the US, and then shipped to Israel where it is cut into blanks for sale to woodturners.  The post claimed that it is illegal to cut down olive trees in Israel, so the only wood that is actually sourced there comes from branches that have been pruned.  I don't know if that's true, but the point is that there is some suspicion that "Bethlehem Olive Wood" may be primarily a marketing thing.



Yes, you are correct, as the times advance, it is becoming very difficult to be sure of the origin of the Olive wood sold everywhere.  California has large areas of European type Olive tree species but, the majority of the Olive wood sold around the world, comes from Italy, the kings of quality Olive trees, and they are quite open about the fact that they get people from Israel visiting the mill and buying containers full of clean/selected Olive wood that is then sent to their country and process into all sorts of blanks sizes to allow the to keep up with the world demand as they local sources have been exhausted, long ago.

Is there a place where I could suggest someone to buy true BOW or JOW, anywhere on this hearth...??? absolutely not, if was totally imperative that had to get some that I could guarantee that had come from a Bethlehem Olive tree, I would have to travel to Bethlehem and cut it myself, then I could validate its authenticity however, with the amount of quality Olive wood I have in stock, I had to be totally out of my mind to go through such extreme, when I can get Olive wood here that easily equals what is sold as BOW, and many other blanks that are far superior to what people are buying out there.

This is an "old" story, one that always upset some people, and something I will continued to talk about, as far as people ask questions about it or try to source the real thing, they can then make their own conclusions and approach the subject with caution...!

Now, can you buy/find quality/high grade Olive wood pen blanks for under $2.00 each...?? absolutely, you look carefully and you will find it, in fact, I know of someone that will be putting for sale soon, about 2.500 if not more of these quality blanks, they will probably sell for under $2.00 each, possibly considerably less, that will be interesting...!

As always, I love to talk about the issue...!:biggrin::wink:

Cheers
George


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## sbell111 (Apr 24, 2013)

Not again...


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## ed4copies (Apr 24, 2013)

I buy from a couple sources in the Holy Land.  I can tell you that the pieces you get range from excellent to fair.  So, if you want to buy from the source, more power to you, but when you factor the "so-so" wood in, then figure your cost per blank, you will be surprised at the result, I suspect.

FWIW,
Ed

BTW, our "so-so" blanks go in the "freebee" pile.


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## monark88 (Apr 24, 2013)

I just checked 'Gilmer Wood company' in Portland and they have some Mediterranean Olive wood. They don't specify whether it Bethlahem wood or not. Decent prices.


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## sbell111 (Apr 24, 2013)

We buy directly from the Holy Land.  Our experience is that the quality is pretty good.  I think that I've only seen a few blanks out of several hundred that weren't usable.  (Those few were still used to make either single tube pens or keychains.)  In general, they range from 'ordinary' to outstanding.  Pens made out of the ordinary ones still sell well and pens made out of the outstanding ones sell very well at an upcharge.

For our use, I see no reason to pay someone to stand between me and the primary suppliers.


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## Dan Masshardt (Apr 24, 2013)

Thanks for all the input - I appreciate it.  

Ed - your comment about the 'so so' pieces is a very valid point!

   My order of 10 blanks from a U.S. middleman had about 4 bland pieces in it - along with some really nice ones!   

Still at $3/ blank shipped, it wasn't too bad of a deal. 

I'll probably order a larger batch from Israel and if I only need a couple order from exotic blanks with my kits.


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## robutacion (Apr 25, 2013)

sbell111 said:


> Not again...



Hi Steve,

Hahahaha, don't worry, I'm not going to waste too much of my time, this time however, I'm growing older and still not able to work out, after all as been said and evidenced on the issue, why people still believe that, only because the blanks are sent from the holy land, the wood is from the holy land, that has been a big puzzle to me and one that I hope one day, someone will be able expose in such way that, will be no more doubts, I hope to see that happen in my lifetime...!

As for the non-concerning folks, all is business as always...!:wink::biggrin:

There are absolutely stunning Olive wood blanks out there, for sure.

Cheers
George


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## Katsin (Apr 25, 2013)

You will find the same difficulties when trying to buy olive oil in the grocery store. The bottles will say "Product of Italy" even if some of the oil may have come from other places.


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## robutacion (Apr 25, 2013)

ed4copies said:


> I buy from a couple sources in the Holy Land.  I can tell you that the pieces you get range from excellent to fair.  So, if you want to buy from the source, more power to you, but when you factor the "so-so" wood in, then figure your cost per blank, you will be surprised at the result, I suspect.
> 
> FWIW,
> Ed
> ...



Hi Ed,

I hope you don't mind me asking you this but, from your comment, I see that the quality/grade that you guys are receiving has dropped significantly, the "so-so" blanks and the ones you put aside as freebies, means that, the percentage a low quality stuff is increasing, as the prices dropped slightly, I remember to have seen all blanks from orders sent from Holy land, some up to 200 blanks in one go, when they were selling at nearly $5 a piece and you wouldn't take a side 5% of them not worthing the effort, I'm to assume from what you say that, the slight decrease in cost from the source, isn't worth it if the quality as also decreased and therefore the added sale cost to the better ones, to cover the loss of the %/number of not good enough to sell.

Is this a fact...???

Cheers
George


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## robutacion (Apr 25, 2013)

Katsin said:


> You will find the same difficulties when trying to buy olive oil in the grocery store. The bottles will say "Product of Italy" even if some of the oil may have come from other places.



Very true...!

Cheers
George


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## sbell111 (Apr 25, 2013)

robutacion said:


> ed4copies said:
> 
> 
> > I buy from a couple sources in the Holy Land.  I can tell you that the pieces you get range from excellent to fair.  So, if you want to buy from the source, more power to you, but when you factor the "so-so" wood in, then figure your cost per blank, you will be surprised at the result, I suspect.
> ...



Another way to read that post is that he's a vendor and wants people to buy from him.  

He buys them and culls out those that don't meet his minimum quality level and then marks up the rest to cover the price of the entire shipment plus an acceptable profit.

In my opinion, the only reason to pay a middle person for this 'service' is if the minimum order is such a huge amount that it is economically unfeasible for the end user.  Otherwise, it's a smarter deal to buy directly from the source and cull your own.

I should mention that I don'ttruly know who he uses as a source, but I have not seen much unusable BOW from my source, as I previously explained.  What I do see is a great deal of variation, from very 'creamy' wood to blanks that have a great deal of dark figure.  Blanks throughout the range make for some very nice pens, in my personal opinion.  The 'unusables' that I have seen were just a couple of blanks that had cracks that meant that they could not be used for 'full length' pens but were still usable for shorter blank pens (such as sierras) or keychains.


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## dhendry (Apr 25, 2013)

Don, have you tried pennstateind.com? They should be in your neighborhood. I have had BO twice but usually get the wood within 3-4 weeks. I don't know about comparable pricing, however.
David,
Denton TX


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## dartman (Apr 25, 2013)

I dont remember where but someone was selling olive wood with a letter of authenticity. It was claimed to be from Bethlehem.Now I wonder....


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## robutacion (Apr 25, 2013)

sbell111 said:


> robutacion said:
> 
> 
> > ed4copies said:
> ...



I don't think that, if I was a business selling pen blanks and rely on purchasing the wood from elsewhere, I would wanted to touch any of these "supposedly" Holy land blanks, is just too much "ripping off" in more ways than one would imagine, with this knowledge that, religious people want to believe, what they get is the real thing, Olive wood is Olive wood regardless where it grows but coming from a very religious family myself to which I never related in that way, I know how "they" think and how important the believe of having a piece of Olive wood from a Olive tree grown in the Holy land, is...!

On the other hand, I can understand why "vendors" try to have an assortment of everything that people buy, it makes sense to have something available to be picked-up on site or be dispatched and received within a few short days and in small quantities, many people want 1 (one) blank of something and need to more.  It would be totally unfeasible to order direct from the source, particularly with these BOW, JOW, and other Holy land woods, from such small quantities, I even doubt they would sell a single pen blanks and if they would, the total cost of shipping would make that blank a very expensive exercise, the problem is, the suppliers in the Holy land, are not going to jeopardize their "business" by admitting that, what they are selling/supplying, is not Holy Olive wood but, Olive wood sourced from places like Italy.

Once, a long time ago, their Olive wood was local it was grown around, as only the local artisans would use it for their manual carvings of all sorts of religious symbols, with time and the explosion of the interest for Holy Olive wood pen blanks, the natural resources were quickly exhausted, as many more people got involved in the lucrative trade of selling Olive wood pens blanks to the world, was that "crazy" demand that "forced" them to source raw product from elsewhere to allow their business to continue, more and more people saw the opportunity and all started importing the wood and sell it from their location, making people believe, what they were getting was the real thing, is it...? you be the judge...!

So, I have no problem with any pen accessories sales vendor in having those products available to their customers and of easy reach, the endor has to make a profit, no doubts there, accessibility has a price and some times well worth it, compared with the alternatives again, I'm a strong believer everyone has to right to make a living however, there are certain things that I have a problem with, particularly when I see peoples religious beliefs being used to someones profits, with total disrespect to what it means to these people (religious people) so, I wouldn't sell it, at all...!

The issue is always the same, pen accessories supplier business, believe or want to believe that, "their" sources are the real thing and then they get all upset when I bring this up, off-course, once I thought that by calling for some attention to the issue, I would save someone some nasty headaches but after my last attempt to demonstrate what is behind my claim and from the reactions received, today I wouldn't expect much more than the acknowledgement that, "they" would like me to go away with this issue however, and as far new people are coming into the world of pen turning and will step into the "Holy land Olive wood issues", I will be here explaining my take of the situation and advise them to proceed with some caution, they have been made aware so, no excuse...!

I know, I know, I'm a very "persistent" guy and very consistent with my "claims", the only way I see the situation will change in the near future is by "educating" the new future pen artists of what they have to consider when they want pen blanks of "Holy land Olive wood", most aren't silly and they will be able to make their decisions and conclusions, I'm sure...!

My issue/replies are directly connected to the OP opening thread so, perfectly in context...!:wink::biggrin:

Cheers
George


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## robutacion (Apr 25, 2013)

dartman said:


> I dont remember where but someone was selling olive wood with a letter of authenticity. It was claimed to be from Bethlehem.Now I wonder....



There you go...! hitting the nail right in the head...!

There is no "letter" but a small and badly printed in many cases card, with some text, that "they" call the "certificate of authenticity" 

Its your exact question, that I want you to ask to yourself, is that same question that the "big guys" of the industry hate me for it, and don't want people to consider...!

My job is done, here...!

Cheers
George


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## Russianwolf (Apr 25, 2013)

A certificate of Authenticity is worth only as much as the reputation of the person making it. 

I've imported Irish and UK bog oak for about 5 years. I found my sources by doing a LOT of emailing local Irish and UK woodworkers and artists working in the medium. I'm confident in my sources even they they don't give me any certificates. 

On the flip side, If someone were to take a piece of black stained oak from a Maryland riverbed and give you a certificate stating that it was Authentic Irish Bog Oak, would you know otherwise? 

Your confidence in your source is the only value that you really have.

Irish Bog Oak regularly sells for $12+ per blank, UK Bog Oak $6. I could make a mint importing a much easier supply of UKBO and selling it as IBO, No one would know or could tell the difference but me (same tree species under the same conditions, just different Islands). But that wouldn't be right IMO.


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## Dan Masshardt (Apr 25, 2013)

Some interesting feedback and thoughts here.  Sure, it's impossible to know for sure where the wood comes from, but I'm not going to lose any sleep about it.  Wherever it grew, it comes from Israel.  . 

The fact is, as was mentioned, that highly figured olive wood is beautiful.  

As the OP here, I think for me the conclusion is that if you want a decent amount and a good price and can deal with some bland pieces and a little wait, order a supply for Israel.   

If I needed a couple or needed them quickly, I'd order along with pen kits from a vendor like exotics.  

Thanks all!


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## ed4copies (Apr 25, 2013)

George,

In an attempt to "answer" your question, I purchase from a couple different sources for a couple reasons.

First I try to encourage both to send me the best they have (I don't shop price, I shop "quality").  I place an order for 500 from each (or nearest easy shipping number).  So far this has gotten me wood that I consider "good".

I have purchased olive wood for nearly 20 years.  In the early part of those years, I got some pretty pedestrian pieces.  So, I know what "junk" looks like.  NOW, I am getting much better wood, but MANY have grain on one side of the blank.  Some have little or no grain.  But, with 1000 pieces to choose from, I ship what I would like to receive.

If the "world price" has gone down, I guess I am not a 'savvy' buyer.  I pay local sources more than "market price" for American wood.  We are not interested in being the "cheapest" or even "cost competitive".  I am looking for pen makers of my own ilk-  I buy what I believe will make an expensive pen.  Material cost of $20 still allows a nice profit on a $100 pen.

If you use any old wood, you shouldn't expect a premium price for your pen.

As to those who say, "oh, Ed's just talking like a vendor".  What are YOU when you are selling at a show?  I buy and sell the same way--I have to BELIEVE my product is better or it won't be MY product.

To each his own ethics.  These are mine.

Since I can't be in all parts of the world with my chain saw, there is some faith in postmarks---I don't KNOW of a better way.


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## r1237h (Apr 26, 2013)

I have to admit, this thread was interesting and amusing. It was very interesting to hear that the olive wood needs to be imported into Israel and re-sent, because... what? No more olive wood in Israel?

Ok, allow me to reassure you: the country is full of them. Throw a stone, and chances are, it will hit an olive tree. Same deal with the Occupied Territories.

Now, can they be cut? Not sure, although I will know for sure in about an hour, but that means very little. Trees are uprooted for construction of buildings, roads, and so on. For example, Highway 6, from Zichron Ya'akov to almost Be'er Sheva, is about 140 km long, at least three lanes each direction (some area's had 4. Nice road, and it cut down the time in car by a lot when I was there), and parts of it went thru olive groves. Meaning - hundreds of tree's removed. Some replanted, but not all. Also, tree's can be trimmed, even if not cut, and when there are a few thousand in the area, wood is not lacking. I visited an olive wood supply business in Isafia, a Druze village outside Haifa, and they had PLENTY. Not to mention that tree's die, and also (don't tell anyone about this) sometimes an enterprising dude will take his chainsaw......

As for the Occupied Territories, I must have heard the accusations of thousands of tree's uprooted and cut down by the settlers or IDF, just to annoy the Palestinians. Plenty of wood there, even if only 1/10 of what they said is true.

Am I stating that it is guaranteed that all wood labeled as Bethlehem Olive Wood is the real deal? No. I am sure that there are plenty of people who will take shortcuts to make a buck, plenty of them in Israel. 

But no more wood? Not even close.


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## r1237h (Apr 26, 2013)

I just got the answer. It is illegal to cut down olive trees.

However, four ways to get olive wood come to mind:

1. Tree's die, whether naturally, or with some help.

2. Triming  branches, or cutting for the tree's health/development, is legal.

3. I have heard of people setting a tree or two on fire, complaining about vandals, and cutting down the tree that is left. Amazingly enough, the fire does not burn the desired part....

4. As mentioned before, and enterprising dude with a chainsaw....


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## Dan Masshardt (Apr 26, 2013)

The vendors specifically claim that the wood harvested for pen blanks us from trimming and not cutting trees down.   

Maybe this is to protect themselves given the law.  Probably to reassure people that they are not wiping out the trees the way the Romans did thousands of years ago.  

I have to admit that I am curious how big the branches are to be able to to 'trimmed' and yield a significant number of solid blanks.  

I know plenty if people that visit Israel.  I'll ask them to investigate. .  

It would be cool to visit one of the shops.  That would shed some light rather than just heat in the issue. 

Either way, its still a bit more if a curiosity but I love the blanks marketed as BOW.


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## sbell111 (Apr 26, 2013)

robutacion said:


> sbell111 said:
> 
> 
> > robutacion said:
> ...



It is in context with how you have skewed the thread, perhaps, but I can't find a link between this last post and the post of mine that you were replying to.

It should be noted that I have read your posts in the other thread and in this one and I simply don't find your argument to be convincing.


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## sbell111 (Apr 26, 2013)

Dan Masshardt said:


> I have to admit that I am curious how big the branches are to be able to to 'trimmed' and yield a significant number of solid blanks.


There's no need to go to Israel to answer this question.  Nowdays, you can just go to youtube and see how most anything is done.

Here is a video that shows the pruning process for olive trees.  You will note that the trimmings are pretty large.


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## Dan Hintz (Apr 26, 2013)

I've always found purchasing ANYTHING for a higher cost because of a story attached to it (and one that you yourself cannot verify directly, such as YOU chopped down the tree) is silly.  If you're purchasing it to make you feel better, that's fine, but to tell yourself the story has to be true or the piece is worth less is self delusion.  It's a piece of wood... it looks pretty, there may be providence associated with it, but you don't know with any certainty in 99% of the cases.  So use it as a pretty piece of wood and stop worrying about the rest.

I will not pay more for a piece of wood because someone tells me it came from a certain place or was cut down by a famous person.  I can't prove it, and even if I was there and watched it happen, who cares?! It's a piece of wood, not Charlize Theron living in my guest quarters.  As Mike said earlier, I'd gladly pay $6 for a UK Bog Oak over a $12 Irish piece... it's the same species, same mineral content, looks the same, etc.

This kind of hokum reminds me of the diamond trade... "It's rare!  There are only a few left in the mine!  Only one mine in the world!"  <pshaw>  A rich group hoarded all they could and inflated the price.  That's business, capitalism.  But it's still the same rock it always was.


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## sbell111 (Apr 26, 2013)

I'm kind of with you.  I generally don't buy things because of the story.  That being said, we sell lots of pens with a somewhat inflated price because the materials have a story that is meaningful to the buyer.  At the end of the day, that buyer has only my word that the story is true.  They must choose to either believe my story and buy the pen or not.

Similarly, we can believe George's theory and avoid BOW, or we can believe our suppliers and continue to happily sell the story.


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## robutacion (Apr 26, 2013)

sbell111 said:


> Dan Masshardt said:
> 
> 
> > I have to admit that I am curious how big the branches are to be able to to 'trimmed' and yield a significant number of solid blanks.
> ...



I respect your opinion and the fact that, you don't believe my claims are very convincing, everyone is allowed to have their own thoughts of whatever the issue, this one is no exception however, you stated that you read my other thread about the issue, and I wonder which one but I hope you are referring to the heated "argument" I had with some IAP members about this same issue, a couple, of years ago or so, of which I would like to ask to the IAP administration what happened to that "long" thread that I worked very hard on to provided evidence of my claims.  It was done by showing copies of emails exchanged between the biggest Olive supplier in Italy and many pics of my own work with these tree species, as I have worked with them since a young kid, with some years of living in areas of Australia where they don't exist but I'm now back to the Olive wood paradise of South Australia Fleureau Peninsula.

If you have read and looked carefully at my pics and explanations, you wouldn't have to look for a YouTube clip with some Olive pruning from Spain.  There are many types of pruning/trimming that Olive trees require periodically, Olive trees in Israel now are fairly new (50 years and under) the old stuff was targeted pretty bad as political and religious wars for far too long, doesn't take a specialist in the subject to see the difference of the trees age in that clip compared with those in Israel, that I already knew for a long time that, no one can cut Olive trees now as they are protected.

There is no comparison of the rich soils of Spain and the poor soils of Israel, the same tree planted at the same time on both locations (well identical juvenile trees) the Spain tree would triple the size of the Israel one in 10 years, this mean that the amount of new growth and wood available for trimming at equal times would also triple however, as this is an area that I done lots of exemplifications and illustrations on that complex thread about this issue, where I demonstrated that the trimmings in the Israeli Olive trees, are a lot smaller due to the slow growth from poor soils, the wood reduction pruning that is normally done once every 5 to 10 years (like the one in the clip you suggested) depending of tree growth speed and while, the Olive trees is Israel rarely suffer from accelerated water shoot growth if any at all, compared withy trees that are planted in rich soils where every year, the trees have to be cleaned of that useless wood/branches/stuff.

How do I know, I have been doing it for a long long time, in fact I've just done 200 trees last week with another 200 to complete that job, where next door I had 600 to deal with last year, as I do the smallest to the large pruning a Olive trees needs, including the very most important pruning a Olive tree will have in its entire life and that some call the " young tree shaping" or "training" where the young tree is left to grow wild until it reaches a certain volume, canopy and trunk mass, normally around the 3 to 4 years of age, where only a few people have the experience and knowledge to do it right, the centre of the tree is cut off (all branches) which we call the "light opening", only certain branches of the outside are left and that is what shapes the tree for fruit production and easy picking heights.

The tree is then "dressed" every year with a "hair cut" where that shape and formation in maintained in sync with its natural growth.  The annual prunings rarely produce anything bigger than 1" diameter (mostly water shoots).  On major trimmings rarely go over 4" diameter, that is normally the growth of 5 to 10 years however and it was clearly visible on that clip, those larger cuts produce little or no heartwood so, I get about 1 pen blank of heartwood for every 5" long log piece, if am lucky.

The slower growth trees such as the ones in Israel, do have a little more heartwood in those 4" logs but and due to the overall tree size and wood volume, those size pieces will take a lot longer to grow (reason to more heartwood than the faster growing Olive trees) so, trying to convince me that all the olive heartwood sold to the world from the Holy land comes from prunings/trimmings, doesn't stick I know better.

I don't need to look into any Youtube videos about how and what is done to Olive trees, remember, I have been working with them for most of my life, on and off and since in South Australia (8 years) I have been asked to help with thousands of Olives trees that are planted in this area by Italians and Greeks that wouldn't just allow anyone to touch their trees, they are everything to them but, they grow fairly fast around here and very quickly they become unable to do it all by themselves, I have been honored to be accepted to work on their trees but not without a lot of "proving to them that I could do it" , as soon as one family trusts you with their Olive trees, the word spread like wildfire and all of a certain, I'm offered more work that I can poke a stick at but, 20 years ago it would be OK not now, those 2 places and about 1,000 trees in between them is all I and the wife can manage, as our backs are shot to the $#!t house...!

They are friends and I get a lot of other wood species from their properties, that's the only reason why I keep pushing but, ain't going to last much longer I can feel it...!

Since in South Australia, I have cut 9 old Olive trees @ 150 years old, 7 at about 100 years old and about 10 at about 50 to 60 years of age not counting a few of these largest olive tree roots that were the size of a small car, 9 of them transported to my storage paddock nearly 2 years ago.

As I said, I don't need videos or pics of others working on Olive trees, I have plenty of my own, these are from the 15 & 16 of this month (April) 2013 
    

These are from October 2011, on the 600 Olive trees grove,     

There are far too many, from this 600 tree pruning, all I took home was a 6x4 trailer full of wood, 70% firewood  (all sapwood) and the rest pieces where I took 2 blank for every 5" length of branch, how many blanks...?? bugger all...!:frown:

Yes, I'm passionate about my woods with Olive wood in a very high spot in my books, I talk from experience and not from watching videos, I should know a little about the issue by now, I reckon...!

Cheers
George


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## LagniappeRob (Apr 26, 2013)

Katsin said:


> You will find the same difficulties when trying to buy olive oil in the grocery store. The bottles will say "Product of Italy" even if some of the oil may have come from other places.



It's actually worse than that with olive oil... in the past some of the oil has been mixed with other types of oil. It has had some bad side effects (allergies). How do I know?  My better half tests much of the olive oil that comes into the US. She works for SGS's Ag division and that's a major part of their work. One of the things they look for is it being tainted with other oils.


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## Dan Hintz (Apr 26, 2013)

sbell111 said:


> I'm kind of with you.  I generally don't buy things because of the story.  That being said, we sell lots of pens with a somewhat inflated price because the materials have a story that is meaningful to the buyer.  At the end of the day, that buyer has only my word that the story is true.  They must choose to either believe my story and buy the pen or not.
> 
> Similarly, we can believe George's theory and avoid BOW, or we can believe our suppliers and continue to happily sell the story.


If I accept a commission to make a pen using material given to me by the commissioner, that's one thing... the value is increased by the story they associated with it.  If I sell a .50 cal pen claiming the casing was fired in a World War, there's no sentimental value and it shouldn't change in price... but if that casing was fired by your grandfather shortly before he was killed, then there's sentimental value and worth to you increases significantly.

A "certificate of authenticity" that is merely copied every time they need more is pointless.  If I purchase deck boards from a famous ships, the certificate had better have the Admiral's (or current owner's) signature on it before I think it has any extra value.


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## sbell111 (Apr 26, 2013)

Dan Hintz said:


> sbell111 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm kind of with you.  I generally don't buy things because of the story.  That being said, we sell lots of pens with a somewhat inflated price because the materials have a story that is meaningful to the buyer.  At the end of the day, that buyer has only my word that the story is true.  They must choose to either believe my story and buy the pen or not.
> ...


We differ, and that's OK.

Many customers will pay more for a pen with a story than a similar one without.  That's a fact that I think is not in dispute.  The mere fact that you would not do so does not change this.

As for what assurances we as sellers have that our materials are what we say they are, I think that this is going to have to be a personal decision.

A best seller for us is pens made out of wood from Jack Daniel's barrels.  Lynchburg isn't far from us, so if I need that wood, we merely drive on down and buy a used barrel.  As such, I am 100% certain that the wood is the real deal and I don't need a CoA.  I could cut up that barrel and offer the blanks for sale on this forum, as others do.  If you bought those blanks from me, I likely would not provide CoAs with them as I am of the opinion that my word is as good or better than some CoA that I would print up for you.

The same goes for materials that I purchase.  My choice is to believe the seller (with or without a CoA) or not make the purchase.  As far as BOW goes, my provider is a company in Israel.  They tell me that the wood that I am buying is BOW.  Why should I doubt that simply because George rants about the issue?


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## sbell111 (Apr 26, 2013)

robutacion said:


> sbell111 said:
> 
> 
> > Dan Masshardt said:
> ...



You certainly should, but just because you know a thing or two about pruning olive trees doesn't mean that you have any accurate knowledge as to what specific, individual suppliers are doing on the other side of the planet.

Either way, let me go back to my original post to this topic.  I am not interested in reliving your argument on this issue.  You believe what you believe.  I've read your concerns and haven't been convinced by them.  Part of me hopes that every other penturner will completely buy into it as that will hopefully cause prices of blanks to drop a bit and prices for BOW pens to increase.


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## r1237h (Apr 26, 2013)

robutacion said:


> Olive trees in Israel now are fairly new (50 years and under) the old stuff was targeted pretty bad as political and religious wars for far too long



Not sure where you got this, but as a sweeping statement, it is inaccurate. Obviously there are new olive trees, but there are certainly huge amounts that are not. Can't say much regarding the soil, but as far as I know, the olive tree's manage to grow just fine.

Again, I am not claiming that all wood labeled BOW is the real deal, but theories such as not much olive wood left in Israel, mostly too young to be interesting, etc., are, shall we say, inaccurate.


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## robutacion (Apr 26, 2013)

Well gentlemen and ladies, we are all mature civilized people in here, (or we should) and these discussions should be seen not as personal marathon but a educative and informative opportunity, while some of you may heard of this too many times, for others this is a completely new issue, as newcomers to the world of pen turning so, my objective is to educated and inform new people that, they should be aware that, the famous BOW/JOW pen blanks, are not ALL what they appear to be, there is less and less true Holy land Olive wood grown circulating, for the reasons I clearly explained, there is lots of FALSE Olive wood pen blanks claimed to be from trees from the Holy land.

The certificate of authenticity provided or claim to be "authentic" are not so, in MOST of cases so, don't fall into the trap of underestimating the issue, if you really care about getting what you think you are getting, take your time to look for things that don't look right, look for poor quality Olive wood blanks with a card/certificate attached and at low prices, look for the grain and sapwood colouration when wet (water/saliva, etc), look for blank size and how its presented, do not buy blanks that have a certificate only because they have one, ask questions to the vendor and *make sure that now you are aware of FAKE Holy land Olive wood*, you done your best to verify its origin, that's my message...!

Cheers
George


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## robutacion (Apr 26, 2013)

Now, I sure prefer a wood with a story attached, hell yeah...! this explain what I take the time to provide as much information about any of the woods I make available to others, and even if I don't, I still tell the story...!

Make no mistake, I like to know that wood from the Holy land will be available to those that specifically want it for religious reasons, there is a strong and very emotional attachment of owning a piece of wood from the Holy land, of a few species available, the one that has been most misused by less scrupulous people, with $ sign as the main goal, is no doubt, the BOW (Bethlehem Olive Wood).

I want to believe that, these religious people that I have a great respect for but, not associated with, have the right to know that MAY have been or WILL BE used for their believes and sold something that MAY not be the real thing, they have the right to be aware of this, at least...!  Is no easy task to be 100% sure of the false and true Holy land Olive wood however, there should be a question mark and a need for careful purchasing care.

I don't want, far from it, to see the Holy land wood not to be available to people, I want BOW to be available to those that made the decision to purchase the true Holy land Olive wood.  I want people, particularly those with religious tendencies to be aware they are the main target in this false trade, they have the right to know and make their own decisions, regardless that them may be...!

As for the Olive trees is Israel, and according to official documentation provided by Israeli authorities, most old plantations were target and destroyed over the years, most of those areas have been replanted with new olive wood trees and are carefully guarded by authorities, reason they are protected species now, there are millions of Olive trees in Israel but, the majority of them are 50 years old and younger.  Unavailability of much topsoil thickness over the underground rock surface is detrimental to the slow growth of a tree species of natural slow formation/growth...!

So, what I meant was, yes there are plenty of Olive trees left in Israel but, their capability to produce excess wood (large trimmings) is very limited and therefore unable to support on its own the world demand for quality heartwood pen blanks or other blanks. The local artisans, most either olive tree owners or close related to those that are, get the majority of what is removed from these trees, they make their living out of their carvings and have done so for hundreds of years, they would waste a quality log to cut into pen blanks, no way in hell, they will use that wood to be best quality items they produce, resulting in a better monetary rewards/returns to them.

The Olive wood trimmings alone, are just not possible to support the BOW industry of pen blanks supply, trees have been cut illegally and a black market of olive trees wood in Israel is very real, people need money and do whatever it takes to get it, this is their richest natural source and therefore "easy pickings"

Israeli authorities are aware of this and god forgive those caught in that black market, the problem is that some of the bigger players, have lots of money and plenty of government connections, and we all know what that means, huh...???

It become a lot easier and less risky to look elsewhere for the supply of quality Olive wood in some European countries, Spain, Portugal, Greece have plenty but, the biggest of them all is Italy, and this is the place from where most of the olive wood imported from Israel, comes from...!

Does any of this make any sense to you...??? maybe yes and maybe no, no one is forcing you to believe it, or even become involved.

From experience I know that, lots of people ready and like these posts but wouldn't dare to say a thing as they know that all of a certain it all can blow out in a big fight and heated arguments, most of those that are very familiar with my thoughts/claims and believes in this issue, have learn that I don't back down or off so, they will all say, "oh no, not again...!" this is the polite thoughts as I'm not going to describe what else they may be saying about it..!

Anyway peoples, like it or not, believe it or not, accept it or not, no one is forcing you to, no one makes you read these posts and no one forces you to decided to say something or not, I appreciate people being able to participate without being rude or disrespectful, everyone is welcome to participate and have their say without being concerned or afraid of being "marked" in anyway shape or form, unfortunately, human nature is not that perfect and we get "marked" in more ways than one, the main thing is to be truthful to yourself and ignore the bad weather, sunny days are always around the corner...!:wink::biggrin:

Cheers
George


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## robutacion (Apr 26, 2013)

ed4copies said:


> George,
> 
> In an attempt to "answer" your question, I purchase from a couple different sources for a couple reasons.
> 
> ...



Thanks Ed, for taking the time to reply to me...!:wink:

Your order volume of such product sure gives you plenty to chose from, it is a simple fact of wood yield that, one will try to get the most out of each log when good value is involved therefore, and being paid by the blank,m I'm not surprised that they would "squeeze" is lots of second grade stuff among such big orders, and while you get the wood for the right price, it may not endup too bad, when you make your own selection of the blanks you want to represent you and the store and have plenty of freebies that people always appreciated, (for the price, who dares to complain..???:wink::biggrin::biggrin

Is nothing wrong with your "vendor" principles and criteria, quality and quantity are very different things, none is right or wrong, each one has its own merits and principles...!

The price differences that I was referring to, are a very interesting subject, particularly when one searches into the subject in depth such as myself, not everyone's cup of tea but very interesting, never the less.  I'm not going to expand it any further here, as I respect you as a vendor and if you feel that is important for you to know, you are most welcome to do your own research on the subject or send me a PM and I will provide you with a email address for you to contact me at, not the one in my signature...!

And while I don't totally agree with this statement of yours _"If you use any old wood, you shouldn't expect a premium price for your pen."_ I understand the sentiment behind it.

I'm glad that you take quality over quantity, in fact, that is no surprise really, your vendor beginnings started or at least grown, with your association with IAP as a "regular" member, selling stuff to this "mob":biggrin: isn't an easy task as they are all very "fussy" and know quality when they see it so, I don't think that would have much of a choice, is either "their" way or the highway, huh...??? Off-course, no disrespect intended to anyone on IAP, these are very common Aussie terms to describe a true fact...!:wink:

As for the authenticity of the Olive wood you are getting from your 2 suppliers, I can not ascertain the one way or the other, I could if I could afford to visit Israel and spend some time around, that would be easy but without that possibility, I simply ask you to be vigilant and be curious, ask questions, ask for evidence do whatever you have to do to make sure those buying the product from you can believe, they are getting the real thing, I understand your predicament but anything else/extra that you can provided to your clients that tells them, your BOW is just not like any other BOW, it will only benefit you...!

Cheers
George


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