# ThinkTank: The 360 Herringbone Experiment



## akbar24601

Okay, there seems to be a tremendous amount of buzz lately about the 360 HB. So here's my thought: instead of wasting all of your efforts trying to figure out how to bleed it out of the guy that already knows how to do it, let's use this thread as a think tank for those of you that don't. It seems to me that there are plenty of you out there that certainly have thoughts, ideas, concepts and even failed prototypes of the design. Why not use this thread to bring your thoughts together. Brainstorm and see what you cancome up with!

Those that do know how to do it, please don't use this thread as a place to give it away!!! Let's get some gears turning! You know as well as I do that these folks can do it and this might be just the avenue that takes them there!

If it seems that someone may be on the right track, some gentle prodding would be fine but give the inexperienced a chance to jump in with their thoughts before you do. 

All of you that want to learn, have fun with this! I think that this could prove to be a great experience for many!!!


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## wolftat

I personally think that instead of dwelling on a pattern that has been done, we should work to create one that hasn't been done yet. Some of our biggest successes are built out of our failures. But it's your show Dad, so let the games begin.


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## akbar24601

A very valid point Son. But, there seems to be a whole lot of people that want to spin their wheels on this one so why not give 'em a playground to do it in! Besides, who knows what kind of new craziness may stem from this.

Oh yes, a side note to all: Please, don't anyone just sit on the sidelines and feel that they are not worthy to participate!!! Every idea is a valid one and can typically find a home somewhere. You may be the only person thinking your thought and if you don't spit it out for fear of lack of experience or whatever then we all just might miss out on the next best thing since the Donut Holes!!!!!


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## Wheaties

Is there somewhere to go that explains what this is? Sorry, I'm still learning. What exactly is HB 360? I know no one knows how to do it, but I don't even know what it is.

Thanks


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## ed4copies

akbar24601 said:


> Okay, there seems to be a tremendous amount of buzz lately about the 360 HB. So here's my thought: instead of wasting all of your efforts trying to figure out how to bleed it out of the guy that already knows how to do it, let's use this thread as a think tank for those of you that don't. It seems to me that there are plenty of you out there that certainly have thoughts, ideas, concepts and even failed prototypes of the design. Why not use this thread to bring your thoughts together. Brainstorm and see what you cancome up with!
> 
> Those that do know how to do it, please don't use this thread as a place to give it away!!! Let's get some gears turning! *You know as well as I do that these folks can do it and this might be just the avenue that takes them there!*
> 
> If it seems that someone may be on the right track, some gentle prodding would be fine but give the inexperienced a chance to jump in with their thoughts before you do.
> 
> All of you that want to learn, have fun with this! I think that this could prove to be a great experience for many!!!



No, Steve, I'm afraid I DON'T KNOW that.  I believe there are many folks who CAN figure things out.  But, not too long ago, someone said, on this very forum, "I can't do this with just the TUTORIAL (with pictures), isn't there a video or U-tube??" 

We, who are old, have raised a generation of children who can really push buttons on video games.  Never HAD to figure out why the car won't start.  Never rode a bike, no need to FIX it!!  In short, their life experience is "ask, someone will provide."

This thread will, I hope, prove there are "other" mindsets.  Now, all you old guys shut up and let the youngsters "strutt their stuff"!!!

I'd sure like to be proven WRONG!!!


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## Phunky_2003

Dunno if I am a youngster or an old guy....... dunno which side of the fence to sit on.  Can I just go sit by the cooler and drink? 

Umm I will ask a question that's been on my mind.  Whats the difference between a herringbone.. herringbone 180 and herringbone 360?  And for that matter if you know how to do the herringbone 180  wouldn't you just double whatever it is for the 360?

Guess we clarified I'd be a youngster...


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## Rollerbob

Ed, I'm old and I don't know how to do it!!:frown:......................but I can ride a bike and fix it!!:biggrin: Do I have to shut up??


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## akbar24601

Thank you ED! I do stand corrected. My wording was wrong and I am glad that you called me on it 




Wheaties said:


> Is there somewhere to go that explains what this is? Sorry, I'm still learning. What exactly is HB 360? I know no one knows how to do it, but I don't even know what it is.
> 
> Thanks



Hiya Wheaties! The following pic shows the 360 HB design. It is your basic HB design that actually wraps around the whole blank.


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## ed4copies

Bob,

I'm OLD and DON'T KNOW how to do it.  But, if I wanted to make one, I would look at the pictures here.  The edges are square on Bruce Robbins pic.

If I go much farther, I will be exhibiting the talent I believe has died.  I will be FIGURING OUT  how to do it.  Let's HOPE LOTS of people will show that talent.  It would make Eagle smile.


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## PR_Princess

I find the timing of the discussion on this thread (and the related ones), strangely appropriate.....and fitting.  Thank You Steve et al.

Now back to regularly scheduled programming.....:biggrin:


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## jimbob91577

Steve, do you happen to have an end shot of the same blank you just posted?


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## ed4copies

jimbob91577 said:


> Steve, do you happen to have an end shot of the same blank you just posted?




BRILLIANT  query!!!!!!
​


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## ed4copies

Rollerbob said:


> Ed, I'm old and I don't know how to do it!!:frown:......................but I can ride a bike and fix it!!:biggrin: Do I have to shut up??




A) That was a RUDE choice of words on my part, I apologize, "Sit back, pop some popcorn and watch the show" would have been MUCH better.

B) I have no RIGHT to TELL anyone what to do, so consider it a SUGGESTION, certainly NOT a command.

Sorry, I was caught up in getting it posted and got downright UNcivil - MY ERROR!!!


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## Wheaties

I still must be lost on this. Why can't you just glue up the pieces in the correct order. What's the major hurddle I'm not seeing?


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## jimbob91577

I think I may have figured it out, but don't have the means to build it...who should I ask (in a PM of course) for confirmation - just looking for a yes or no answer not details.

I won't share until who I ask shares.

UPDATE:
Sorry, my thought process doesn't produce what is pictured in the post on page 1...


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## jimbob91577

Wheaties said:


> I still must be lost on this. Why can't you just glue up the pieces in the correct order. What's the major hurddle I'm not seeing?


 
Probably good joinery. I imagine getting all of the glue joints just perfect would be a big problem.

I think there is a much simpler way to do it.


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## skiprat

Personally, I think this is wrong. By the end of this thread the whole world will know how to do this design. :frown: Far too soon to ruin someones hard work.
Although the 360 HB was the item in question, I think the discussion was about sharing.

I reckon we should allow the mystery to run it's natural coarse.


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## jkeithrussell

Wheaties said:


> I still must be lost on this. Why can't you just glue up the pieces in the correct order. What's the major hurddle I'm not seeing?


 
Try it.  Or sketch it in 3 dimensions.  Then, I think, you will see the hurdle(s).  

I'm all for people sharing information, and I've had people walk me through a lot of different aspects of pen turning and finishing, but at some point you have to log off and go to your shop and try it.  Personally, I hope this doesn't turn into a tutorial (at least not yet) because the project really challenges your ability to think through the design process.


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## CHEF

Hi Don't know if I,am in the right place or not . I love the site and I love looking at all the forum's  I don't think that I have voiced my opinion. well i hope that you keep it as it is well for me anyway I,am learning so much, and you all give excellent advice for a beginner.I,am getting there I hope it's finish tat gets me sometimes or I forget which pen that I,am doing . But at our age getting a pen off the lathe is an achievement. anyway when and if I manage to get a good pen done I'll post it (when I learn to post to your site) thanks for listening to me I tend to go on  and on and on.
-----------------------------------Brian---------------------------------------


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## workinforwood

Oh, ok.  You make square corner jig with some wood, wax the jig, put some wax paper down on the table.  You cut several uniform strips, then set up a stop and chop them up into a bazillion uniform length pieces.  I'll just say as a guess, every piece is 1/4" wide and maybe 1/2-5/8 inch long..the length is the tricky part..after you make one, if it's too wide, you shorten the length...and they are 3/4 thick. you press two pieces into the corner jig, add two more and two more, gluing and pressing together as you go till you have a long row.  Then you flip the herringbone on it's side and with just single strips, fill in the ends.  completely flip and repeat on other side.   It's alot of work...be much faster and more productive to make panels and then cut those into staves.  I'm 99% sure that would work, but if I am the 1% wrong..then you'll end up with something new and cool just the same.


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## ed4copies

workinforwood said:


> Oh, ok.  You make square corner jig with some wood, wax the jig, put some wax paper down on the table.  You cut several uniform strips, then set up a stop and chop them up into a bazillion uniform length pieces.  I'll just say as a guess, every piece is 1/4" wide and maybe 1/2-5/8 inch long..the length is the tricky part..after you make one, if it's too wide, you shorten the length...and they are 3/4 thick. you press two pieces into the corner jig, add two more and two more, gluing and pressing together as you go till you have a long row.  Then you flip the herringbone on it's side and with just single strips, fill in the ends.  completely flip and repeat on other side.   It's alot of work...be much faster and more productive to make panels and then cut those into staves.  I'm 99% sure that would work, but if I am the 1% wrong..then you'll end up with something new and cool just the same.



Do you have a U-tube of that?


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## jimbob91577

workinforwood said:


> ...be much faster and more productive to make panels and then cut those into staves. ...


 
I'm not sure how you would get the stepped joints though if you did it this way?


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## Rollerbob

ed4copies said:


> A) That was a RUDE choice of words on my part, I apologize, "Sit back, pop some popcorn and watch the show" would have been MUCH better.
> 
> B) I have no RIGHT to TELL anyone what to do, so consider it a SUGGESTION, certainly NOT a command.
> 
> Sorry, I was caught up in getting it posted and got downright UNcivil - MY ERROR!!!


 Oh, I was pulling your chain!! No harm no foul. Just making a point, as you reminded me that I was old!!:wink:


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## hebertjo

Here is what I have learned from postings by those who know.

BRobbins629:
Hint #1. There's more than one way. 
Hint #2  See my avatar (it looks like a flat herringbone pattern)
Hint #3. For my method, it doesn't have to be a glued up blank. It can be built around a tube.
Hint #4 Quesion: are the cuts done on 30 degrees? 
        Answer: For my method, it doesn't have to be a glued up blank. It can be built around a tube.

After reading Bruce's hints I am guessing that he lays out a veneer in the herringbone pattern and then wraps and glues that around the pen. If this is true then a good deal of planning must be involved to get the pattern to line up once wrapped around the tube and each tube would require a different set of dimensions.

I found this quote from Bruce in another thread:

"Will also work with veneer and a little planning. This one is a 360 degree pattern."


The other method is to glue up a solid blank. I am still working on this one. Here are the hints I have found on this method

TribalRR:
Hint #1:The number rows of herringbones depends on the angle of the triangles. The pics I posted have 3; 6 pieces per layer. 
Hint #2: I started with 3/16" thick triangles and went from there...

So it seems that your basic building block must be a triangle and the number of rows of herringbone pattern depends on the angle of the triangle. Just to mess around I made some equlateral triangles (all angles are 60) out of foam and it gave me 4 herringbones and it took 8 pieces to complete one layer. However the last piece did not line up correctly so I am missing something. I suspect that you must use isosceles triangles and that the angle must be exact to get the pieces to line up. That is as far as I got.


With regard to giving away the secret:
Regardless of how you make your 360 herringbone pattern I am guessing it is a ton of work and no matter what resonable price you get for the resulting pen (or blank) it will not be as profitable percentage wise as other blanks/kits that take less time to complete. Here is quote from Bruce that sums it up. 


"Thanks to all for your comments. The woods are ebony and maple. I actually have made attempts at this with 3 different techniques. Will consider a tutorial when I have at least one of them perfected. I will say that my technique does not lend itself to making a profit. Took about 10 days to make the blank and that was after figuring out how to do it. With all the early failed experiments and mock-ups, I probably have more than 30 hours in this but the techniques could lend themselves to some interesting designs. More to come... "


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## workinforwood

No matter how many ways there might be to pull it off, there sure will be a lot of saw dust!


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## workinforwood

jimbob91577 said:


> I'm not sure how you would get the stepped joints though if you did it this way?



That's a great point Bob!  you'll end up with a ton of zig zags around the pen instead of the length of the pen...so I invented the next evolution in pen blank technology! :biggrin:  It's tough to sit here and surmise a solution without going out to the shop and doing it.  So much to do, so little time.


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## jimbob91577

hebertjo said:


> ...The woods are ebony and maple. ... "


 
I would think Ebony would be a tough wood to make a veneer out of that would wrap in that tight of a diameter without blowing out a glue joint or cracking...keep in mind you would still have to leave enough material on the tube to turn/sand away and finish. 

I would also wonder how you would overcome the whole "outside of the veneer has a larger circumference than the inside of the veneer" issue. Consider a 3/8" diameter pen tube. The inside circumference of the veneer would be ~1.18" thus if you make the thickness of your veneer say 1/8" the outside circumference would be 1.57". 

I'm not saying this isn't the way it is done, but it would sound very difficult to do.


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## bitshird

workinforwood said:


> No matter how many ways there might be to pull it off, there sure will be a lot of saw dust!



Or a lot of bloody fingers. As in work your fingers to the bone what do you get 
bloody fingers???


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## workinforwood

ok.  he made two regular herringbone blanks and they are laminated together, but the one on the back is inverted...meaning it's flipped end over end.  This way all the straight strips glued on the side angle across to one another.


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## jimbob91577

workinforwood said:


> That's a great point Bob! you'll end up with a ton of zig zags around the pen instead of the length of the pen...so I invented the next evolution in pen blank technology! :biggrin: It's tough to sit here and surmise a solution without going out to the shop and doing it. So much to do, so little time.


 
Actually this was my original thought process too, only I was also thinking of making the miter joint a compound miter...

Be lucky you can go to the shop and do something like this - I don't trust my bandsaw to make cuts that accurately.  My garage is slowly becoming my shop as I make more and more trips to the landfill and goodwill.


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## hebertjo

jimbob91577 said:


> I would think Ebony would be a tough wood to make a veneer out of that would wrap in that tight of a diameter without blowing out a glue joint or cracking...keep in mind you would still have to leave enough material on the tube to turn/sand away and finish.
> 
> I would also wonder how you would overcome the whole "outside of the veneer has a larger circumference than the inside of the veneer" issue. Consider a 3/8" diameter pen tube. The inside circumference of the veneer would be ~1.18" thus if you make the thickness of your veneer say 1/8" the outside circumference would be 1.57".
> 
> I'm not saying this isn't the way it is done, but it would sound very difficult to do.



I totally agree with everything you are saying and I am just guessing at how he did it based on the comments I found. Personally I am more interested in figuring out the other method because it seems it would work for all tube sizes.


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## jimbob91577

*With Toung in Cheek*

- Comment removed by jimbob91577 - 

I suggested an idea cheekly and it could be cheep knock-off solution for someone wanting to do something like this but doesn't actually solve the problem at hand and produce the real results.


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## wolftat

Just remenmber, if you think you have the answer, don't post it here, this is for everyone to work on, not for one person to figure it out and everyone else nod there heads and run to the shop. I don't think that is why this thread was started.


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## ed4copies

jimbob91577 said:


> He could have printed a picture of a herringbone design, glued it around the tube, and cast it in PR before turning?




I KNOW how to DO that!!!!


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## jimbob91577

ed4copies said:


> I KNOW how to DO that!!!!


 
Have you done it with autumn aspen leaves? If so, I would be interested in having a couple blanks made up if the cost wasn't too prohibitive.  And if you think they would look good..

www.aspenlakewoodworks.com

Beware of picture size at the moment - having to make more changes to the website...


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## bdonald

wolftat said:


> Just remenmber, if you think you have the answer, don't post it here, this is for everyone to work on, not for one person to figure it out and everyone else nod there heads and run to the shop. I don't think that is why this thread was started.



I agree, I was sitting here looking at it, and for some reason, something came to me, one of those "slap your head" moments.  I wont be able to test it and see for another week <my shop is set up primarily for the lathe now, had to finish up these projects first and reset it>, but looking forward to trying it. Also to see if my deductive reasoning is correct   I think it would have taken all the fun out of it if I went down with a printout of step by step instructions, kinda like figuring out the rubik's cube!


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## miket812

I am new to this forum and I have very few post. I have only been turning pens for less thean a year and I think that I have figured it out. Before I post it, and give it away I would like to pm whoever it is that is the mastermind and get his approval. I will probly not ever make this style pen due to the work invovled and the time pertaining. I am just wondering if I have the right idea. I do not want to waist anyones time as it is very valuable to us all.


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## akbar24601

jimbob91577 said:


> Steve, do you happen to have an end shot of the same blank you just posted?



*No, I'm sorry I do not.*



skiprat said:


> Personally, I think this is wrong. By the end of this thread the whole world will know how to do this design. :frown: Far too soon to ruin someones hard work.
> Although the 360 HB was the item in question, I think the discussion was about sharing.
> 
> I reckon we should allow the mystery to run it's natural coarse.



*Steven, you may be right. But, this is not meant to be something that is wrong. This is just a little something to help people to get thinking. This is not meant to be an answer forum and I for one would be awfully Pissed Off if someone used it as such!!! Clearly these are people that are already considering the possibilities, perhaps they can help one another out and if nothing else, hopefully learn some cool new stuff in the process.*



jkeithrussell said:


> Try it.  Or sketch it in 3 dimensions.  Then, I think, you will see the hurdle(s).
> 
> I'm all for people sharing information, and I've had people walk me through a lot of different aspects of pen turning and finishing, but at some point you have to log off and go to your shop and try it.  Personally, I hope this doesn't turn into a tutorial (at least not yet) because the project really challenges your ability to think through the design process.



*Exactly the point!!!!! This is not meant to give the answer but to foster creativity! Then wild pen animals can go run rampant in their shops being proud of what THEY were able to come up with!!!*



ed4copies said:


> Do you have a U-tube of that?



*HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! LOL ED, you crack me up! That is too funny!!! *



wolftat said:


> Just remenmber, if you think you have the answer, don't post it here, this is for everyone to work on, not for one person to figure it out and everyone else nod there heads and run to the shop. I don't think that is why this thread was started.



*Thank you Neil! Very well said!!! Don't blow it for everybody!!! If you think you are on to something run out to the shop and try it! If you figured it out, bow out of the conversation and go strut like a Rooster at what you have done!!!! Just remember, wanting the answer is half the fun, how a person got that answer could totally make or break the deal for them!!!!!*



ed4copies said:


> I KNOW how to DO that!!!!



*Can I have some when you are done ED! Sounds alot easier than how I do it!*



bdonald said:


> I think it would have taken all the fun out of it if I went down with a printout of step by step instructions, kinda like figuring out the rubik's cube!



_*EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!*_


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## GouletPens

Bruce lives about 20 minutes from me....maybe I should go knocking on his door....:wink:


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## ed4copies

*Fastest method?*



GouletPens said:


> Bruce lives about 20 minutes from me....maybe I should go knocking on his door....:wink:


 
see headline


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## JohnU

I just sat and read all of this.... my head hurts.  I havent seen this blank in person to really appreciate what it has to offer on all sides, but it sounds interesting, and some day when i get more than an hour at a time, Im going to give it a try.  Good luck all!


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## PR_Princess

GouletPens said:


> Bruce lives about 20 minutes from me....maybe I should go knocking on his door....:wink:



Maybe we should all meet at Bruce's house! A 360 party!arty: arty:arty:arty:Thanks Bruce!


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## akbar24601

PR_Princess said:


> Maybe we should all meet at Bruce's house! A 360 party!arty: arty:arty:arty:Thanks Bruce!


SWEET!!! Count me in!!!! Thanks Bruce :biggrin::biggrin:


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## wolftat

GouletPens said:


> Bruce lives about 20 minutes from me....maybe I should go knocking on his door....:wink:


 Go for it, just call first and make sure he isn't busy.


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## David M

so no *360 Herringbone in the classifieds yet ?*


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## jleiwig

http://content.penturners.org/articles/2006/segpenblanks.pdf

If you look at the last pages of that it does a two sided herringbone pattern.  Now the secret is to just apply it to 4 sides.


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## wolftat

A couple of people have contacted me and have said some nasty things to me, as far as I am concerned, save it, your just showing how little you truly know. If this is truly that important for you to learn, get out from behind your keyboard, go into your shop, and try to use your mind for something creative, unless that is asking too much.


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## CSue

Well, I am really interested in following this thread.  I certainly don't have it figured out. But I like hearing how others are puzzling this out. 

 I think this was a GREAT idea!!!

Thank you, Steve, for presenting this thread for us to "reason with."


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## OKLAHOMAN

Neil  let me first apologize for the few while us many appreciate your sticking to your promise.Sometimes not only will  some want us to catch,cook, and serve their food but now they want it pre chewed. While I admire what you, Steve,Keith and others have done my talent is not in blank making and I know my limitations and am looking forward to see where this goes I just hope it spurs some good thinking.   





wolftat said:


> A couple of people have contacted me and have said some nasty things to me, as far as I am concerned, save it, your just showing how little you truly know. If this is truly that important for you to learn, get out from behind your keyboard, go into your shop, and try to use your mind for something creative, unless that is asking too much.


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## akbar24601

wolftat said:


> A couple of people have contacted me and have said some nasty things to me, as far as I am concerned, save it, your just showing how little you truly know. If this is truly that important for you to learn, get out from behind your keyboard, go into your shop, and try to use your mind for something creative, unless that is asking too much.



*Very well put Neil!!!! I don't feel that this or any other forum is the place for that kind of behavior. If you do, then you don't deserve anyone's help anyway. Do yourself a favor and prove to yourself that you can be a little more productive with that mind that God gave you other than badgering innocent people!!!
*


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## ngeb528

So, I was thinking as I was reading this. To me the best way to start is with the bottom row. 

If you figure out what angle you need for the number of pieces you want around the tube, wouldn't it make sense to cut the bottom row pieces, at the angle you want, along the bottom edge so you could effectively glue the row together around the tube you want to use? Wouldn't that give you a nice clean end to start off? Then each subsequent row would stack on top of the bottom.  Obviously, you'd cut each piece a little shorter as you work around the tube.

I have no idea if I'm thinking through this correctly, but that was my initial thought.

What do you all think?


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## wolftat

Hopefully I will get no more rude messages, but I will answer all of them now.


"Many decafs taste just as good as the real thing" Chevy Chase???


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## btboone

Seems straight forward enough.


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## babyblues

What I can't figure out is how you would calculate the angles.  It wouldn't be as simple as dividing 360 by the number of "sides".  Also, the number of "sides" would have to be an even number or you couldn't complete the pattern around the blank.  That's if I'm thinking of this correctly.  I'll have to do some brushing up on my geometry.  Or find someone who is better at geometry than I am.  :biggrin:


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## USAFVET98

Steve,
    It looks to me like you have multiple blanks there. two to be exact. They are ripped down the middle to create 4 parts, then glued to make one full blank. I am thinking now, thinner 30 degree cuts and the fact that when it's turned and the pattern is all the way around makes it 360 degree? Am I close?



akbar24601 said:


> Thank you ED! I do stand corrected. My wording was wrong and I am glad that you called me on it
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hiya Wheaties! The following pic shows the 360 HB design. It is your basic HB design that actually wraps around the whole blank.


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## USAFVET98

Wait a minute, upon closer inspection of the pictures, it looks like every other section is upside down.



USAFVET98 said:


> Steve,
> It looks to me like you have multiple blanks there. two to be exact. They are ripped down the middle to create 4 parts, then glued to make one full blank. I am thinking now, thinner 30 degree cuts and the fact that when it's turned and the pattern is all the way around makes it 360 degree? Am I close?


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## wolftat

Wheaties said:


> Is there somewhere to go that explains what this is? Sorry, I'm still learning. What exactly is HB 360? I know no one knows how to do it, but I don't even know what it is.
> 
> Thanks


 The herringbone 360 is a herringbone pattern that continues as one all the way around the pen with no breaks. And some of us do know how to do it, but are just feeling that we worked a lot to make it and develop it to put a tutorial up for all to copy. Not to bring up a bad subject again, but I have not forgotten the uproar when the Circuit board pen went commercial. When we forget history, it tends to repeat itself.


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## USAFVET98

I have to chime in here. I dont blame you guys at all. These designs are unique and say alot about your individual talents. Not to mention you worked very hard to perfect your craft. Everyone on this site has been more than generous with many thing. I see no problem with keeping a few hard earned designs to your selves. I see so many pointers and tips from beginners level to advanced. It is now up to us to come up with our unique designs, or try our hand at ones that have been done already. I dont know how many times I tried something I saw on here and it came out nothing like I expected, and still liked the design even more because it was new.

Sorry for the rant everyone

By the way, if you guys ever do decide to give up the secret, sell it. Hold a raffle for $5.00 a pop and the winner gets a full description  and instructions on how to do it. All proceeds go to IAP as a donation for a great site.  Just an idea.



wolftat said:


> The herringbone 360 is a herringbone pattern that continues as one all the way around the pen with no breaks. And some of us do know how to do it, but are just feeling that we worked a lot to make it and develop it to put a tutorial up for all to copy. Not to bring up a bad subject again, but I have not forgotten the uproar when the Circuit board pen went commercial. When we forget history, it tends to repeat itself.


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## wolftat

USAFVET98 said:


> By the way, if you guys ever do decide to give up the secret, sell it. Hold a raffle for $5.00 a pop and the winner gets a full description and instructions on how to do it. All proceeds go to IAP as a donation for a great site. Just an idea.


 Sorry, but my word not to give it up is worth more to me than money.


----------



## louisbry

I am thinking that you should cut small squares (say 3/4 inch) out of 1/4 inch lumber with 45 degree miters on all edges (opposite sides parallel).  Then you cut all the squares diagonally with a 90 degree cut to form triangles.   Forty such triangles should be enough to make a single blank.  I will have to try this and see if it works.   First I will have to figure out how to cut such small pieces.   Laser cut would be nice!    I may be way off, but this is what I visualize after thinking about it last night.   It might be easier to just buy a $90 blank from Ed.


----------



## OKLAHOMAN

In my case much easier and much more profitable.


louisbry said:


> It might be easier to just buy a $90 blank from Ed.


----------



## rjwolfe3

And you get to keep all 10 fingers and toes.


----------



## wolftat

louisbry said:


> It might be easier to just buy a $90 blank from Ed.


 It definetly would be easier, and would save you a lot of wood. Please remember that while Ed sells these blanks, there are others that do as well. Ed does have some nice ones sometimes too.


----------



## ed4copies

Yes, We (Dawn & I) do sell the blanks on Exoticblanks --- but the makers ship them and get the money.  We merely offer them a place where more people will SEE it.  

Why would we do this?   Makes our site INTERESTING!!!  So you will COME BACK!!!   And buy STUFF from US!!!  And we enjoy watching these guys get paid a little something for THEIR creativity.


----------



## wdcav1952

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by ed4copies  
A) That was a RUDE choice of words on my part, I apologize, "Sit back, pop some popcorn and watch the show" would have been MUCH better.

B) I have no RIGHT to TELL anyone what to do, so consider it a SUGGESTION, certainly NOT a command.

Sorry, I was caught up in getting it posted and got downright UNcivil - MY ERROR!!! 




Rollerbob said:


> Oh, I was pulling your chain!! No harm no foul. Just making a point, as you reminded me that I was old!!:wink:



Ed,

From my dealings with the *OLD* Rollerbob, I think you and I can invite him into the "no blood, no foul" club!!


----------



## ed4copies

Heck Cav, 

I take no offense from any comment made about me.  I was just worried I had stepped out of line in my "general comment".  

I sincerely appreciate Bob taking it in the spirit I meant to present, but I WAS wrong in stating it that way.  

Of course, WELCOME BOB to the fray.  No corpses in the streets, no fouls.  All else is "water off a duck's back".


----------



## wolftat

Bobs okay, he has thick skin and a good sense of humor. He should probably prospect for a while though.:biggrin:


----------



## akbar24601

wolftat said:


> It definetly would be easier, and would save you a lot of wood. Please remember that while Ed sells these blanks, there are others that do as well. Ed does have some nice ones sometimes too.


Yeah, and Ed's are better!!! LOL :biggrin::wink::biggrin::tongue: And, they aren't even $90 anymore!!!


----------



## Rmartin

wolftat said:


> "Many decafs taste just as good as the real thing" Chevy Chase???


 
I wrote a barrel hinge tutorial which is in the 2008 library archives which starts with this quote:



"...there's a lot of decaffeinated brands on the market that are just as tasty as the real thing"​Chris Knight (Val Kilmer) "Real Genius"

I don't know if Chevy said the same thing, but it illustrates the axiom that nothing has been original since Shakespeare, or the Romans, or somebody original from a long time ago.

I guess you've seen the link to the Faber-Castell 360HB pen. They say each veneer is hand cut as it's glued to the blank. If this is the case, then it seems unlikely to me the market is going to get flooded with 360HB pens.

So my question is, why all the concern this method will become public?

So I'm guessing there must be an easier way to do the direct to tube method, such as creating a flat veneer then wrapping it around the tube, much like many clear castings. The seam would be critical, but probably not to the major companies. It didn't bother them with the circuit board design.

I have to say though, I'm more interested in building segments as solid blanks. I've made many of the standard HB pens and absolutely love the look. I've wondered if it's possible to cut a standard HB glue-up in such a way, that once it's glued back together, it would make the 360HB. After reading through the 360 threads, I think I'll go a different route.

It's been way too hot to work in my shop once I get home from work this week, (heat index well over 100) but this weekend, I plan to spend a little time wrapping a small square blank with bits of various woods.


----------



## wolftat

Rmartin said:


> I wrote a barrel hinge tutorial which is in the 2008 library archives which starts with this quote:
> 
> 
> 
> "...there's a lot of decaffeinated brands on the market that are just as tasty as the real thing"​Chris Knight (Val Kilmer) "Real Genius"
> 
> I don't know if Chevy said the same thing, but it illustrates the axiom that nothing has been original since Shakespeare, or the Romans, or somebody original from a long time ago.
> 
> I guess you've seen the link to the Faber-Castell 360HB pen. They say each veneer is hand cut as it's glued to the blank. If this is the case, then it seems unlikely to me the market is going to get flooded with 360HB pens.
> 
> So my question is, why all the concern this method will become public?
> 
> So I'm guessing there must be an easier way to do the direct to tube method, such as creating a flat veneer then wrapping it around the tube, much like many clear castings. The seam would be critical, but probably not to the major companies. It didn't bother them with the circuit board design.
> 
> I have to say though, I'm more interested in building segments as solid blanks. I've made many of the standard HB pens and absolutely love the look. I've wondered if it's possible to cut a standard HB glue-up in such a way, that once it's glued back together, it would make the 360HB. After reading through the 360 threads, I think I'll go a different route.
> 
> It's been way too hot to work in my shop once I get home from work this week, (heat index well over 100) but this weekend, I plan to spend a little time wrapping a small square blank with bits of various woods.


Richard, I stand corrected. It was Val Kilmer in Real Genius who said it. I wasn't sure so I took a shot hence the question marks. I must have watched that movie 10 times(only one we could see for about 3 months).
  My concern about it becoming public stems from the practice of taking our hard work and turning it into mass made blanks, like the circuit board. I personally don't understand why so many want a tutorial instead of breaking it down on there own like most of us have. Why do we always need to take the easy way out of something that is either a business as it is for me or a hobby as it is for so many. I especially feel that when this was a hobby for me, figuring things out on my own waas much more gratifying than following directions. Since this is supposed to be about freedom of creation, why not try and create something that hasn't been done? I am always doing things in my shop to try and come up with something new and different.


----------



## Rollerbob

Well, well ,well a man trying his darndest to mind his own business, slaving on this dang bone design, and turn on the computer to find that his good name has been violated by a few Upperstatesmen.:frown: Questioning if he is able to withstand the heat of the kitchen, so to speak. Well, I'm here to tell ya, my boots are big enough to handle what's in them as well as what gets on them!!!!:biggrin::devil::cowboy:
So, no harm no foul applies!!!!:rain::biggrin: Ed, Cav is still a little hurt about the "pink thing"! :tongue::tongue:


----------



## GaryMGg

Hey folks, merember me? :biggrin: I used to make some wood pens.
I haven't made one since July 3rd of last year :frown: but I ain't forgotten how.
I've mostly been doing flat work the last year.

I wanna throw in a couple 'o comments here. Given that July 4th is about 2 weeks away, for me this discussion is right on time -- Eagle, my friend, you listenin'? :wink:

The first is related to the `Gimme a tutorial' crowd. To those who believe you're owed a tutorial and wrote to insult Wolftat for NOT sharing his method I say, "Who is John Galt?"

The second is the best tip WRT thinking about making a pen blank and it comes from Eagle: "The blank is constructed from the center out to the edge!"

The third is a philosophy about blank making and it's one I share with Ed, Eagle, and numerous others: Work to figure out how to make what you see and experiment using trial and error. This will teach you more than anything anyone else can tell you.

When I first got into pen making, my first custom woodwork pen, e.g.: one not made from simple solid wood, was a curly Bubinga pen with an Ebony and Maple Yin Yang inlay.
The blank took me 8 hours to make.
While building the blank, I spent many hours on a cell phone with an ear-bud in my ear and Eagle on the other end. We talked about all manner of things related to penmaking, the world, and life.
He talked about how I would learn more than I would realize from figuring out how to make the inlay Yin Yang.
Now, as a woodworker, I can think of several methods to make the HB 360 -- gee, that almost sounds like a piece of legislation :tongue: -- and they're all a lot of work. I can promise you that when time permits, I'll make a blank like this to help encourage others who want to figure things out for themselves.

One reason Eagle, I and others hesitate to instruct folks on how to make certain blanks -- *IT CAN BE DANGEROUS! *Yep, some of these blanks are constructed from lots of small pieces and working with power tools having flesh-eating, rotating cutters can put you at risk.
So, one reason I hesitate is because *I don't know what you don't know about safety*.
If you ask for safety advice, I will gladly offer it -- always and freely.


Finally, I want to draw your attention to the work being done by a friend of mine, Darryl M., who posts here infrequently:

http://lumberjocks.com/projects/18179

After you look at that link, look at a bunch of his projects online at the LJ.
When I started conversing with Darryl about his work, he'd been making plain wood pens for many months. I knew he had a huge talent, but he was lazy -- he wouldn't push himself. I gnawed at him a bit and pushed and prodded and now he shines like the star he always was. Look at the mastery of his workmanship! I have nothing to do with the quality of his craft; I merely antagonized him enough to help him throw off the lazy man's yoke.
So, I suggest, those of you who wish to learn to make the HB 360 -- throw off the lazy man's yoke, go out to the shop, and cut some wood. Glue some wood. Test your ideas. Test your mettle. Teach your inner child how to transform wishes and wants into self-fulfilling actualizations. _Train yourself to do rather than desire_. And, make some great pens.

Cheers,
G


----------



## wolftat

Amen brother.


----------



## wolftat

Gary, I have seen some of his bottle stoppers in the past and have always thought they were first rate. I really liked the open segmented stopper.


----------



## jfoh

Some guy takes shredded money, snake skins or whatever and turns it into a blank, then turns it into a different looking pen and three days later the world is flooded with money/snakeskin pens. That is fine but why is it that some feel that knowledge must be shared so they can copy it or even start making blanks to sell to others. It use to be that a celtic knot was a neat looking, different pen to me. I have seen a hundred in the last year so they are common these days. 360 Heringbone pens will be common if someone can teach ten guys how to make them with little trial or error. 

If you want to make 360 heringbone blanks start with paper and pencil. Draw it out from above and then from the side. Four sections meet at 90 degree, five at 72 degrees and six at 60 degrees. Your side angle where they meet can be up 15, 30 or 45 degrees or what ever works out to your eye. It just needs to stay constant. They whole assemble works much better it you have a small disk sander to make all the ends very smooth so the gaps are as tight as possible. First one took me three hours to make. Second one less than half an hour. Once you get the angles down they are not that hard to make. By the way, I think that the extra skin that I left behind on the wood, when I glued them up was not needed. Some days super glue and I do not get along.


----------



## VisExp

GaryMGg said:


> "Who is John Galt?"



I read that book   It was a long time ago though, but I read it and many more by the same author.


----------



## ngeb528

GaryMGg said:


> So, I suggest, those of you who wish to learn to make the HB 360 -- throw off the lazy man's yoke, go out to the shop, and cut some wood. Glue some wood. Test your ideas. Test your mettle. Teach your inner child how to transform wishes and wants into self-fulfilling actualizations. _Train yourself to do rather than desire_. And, make some great pens.
> 
> Cheers,
> G


 
I don't disagree with your statements (and by the way, that was all very well said) but I wonder if *most* aren't, so much, wanting the tutorial on a platter, as wanting some idea of where to start.

I know, from my own experience, that when you're starting a new project and know nothing, that some insight is very helpful.  I was at a complete loss when I was wanting to start casting.  I had no idea where to start or what to have to successfully do the cast.  

If not for some friendly people here, I would be fumbling around wasting what little product I have to get nothing usable.

I think, from reading several of the tutorials in the library, that for me, I get a basic understanding of how something works, then make it work for me.

Just like it says on the link Gary posted, no two will be exactly the same and by having a starting place it would probably lead to other ideas and entirely new challenges for turner's to try.

Trial & error is a good thing - don't get me wrong - but especially in the current economical climate, not wasting money is important too.

Just my two cents.


----------



## tim self

IIRC this thread was started because of another thread, Has this place changed?  I was glad to read the intent of this thread.  However, I think it has turned from it's original mission.   I commend those who have the backbone to keep the "secret".  Not all concepts of pen turning has to be shared.  I believe if a couple of folks think outside the box then hats off to them.  Do we all have the ability to break the code?  Some do, Some don't.  Remember, this ain't XBOX where you can go buy a cheat code book.  Are those sending nasty messages wearing a "lazy man's" yoke?

Maybe I'm just rambling but it chaps my hide to hear of people abusing others concerning something they can't figure out.  Who called Henry Ford abusing him cause he wouldn't tell them how to build a car?  Do I know how to make a HB360?  Do I wanna know? Heck no!  As stated before, I'd rather buy one.  But as also stated, "they aren't 90 anymore".  Happy guys?  Because of the foolishness or cheapness of a few, all others suffer.

Just my nickle worth.


----------



## arioux

Quote:
Originally Posted by bdonald  
I think it would have taken all the fun out of it if I went down with a printout of step by step instructions, kinda like figuring out the rubik's cube! 

EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!! 
__________________
~Steve Cape Coral, FL


Funny that no ones seems to have picked up that one !!


----------



## twoofakind

I've got it figured out after about three hours in the shop and several failed attempts. That being said this is not a blank for begginers,IMHO. As said in the post above, and I do hope you try it, please practice shop safety. There are lots of small pieces that can turn into projectiles, not to mention your fingers can get close to the blade. Just be safe and take precautions.


----------



## Daniel

jfoh said:


> why is it that some feel that knowledge must be shared so they can copy it or even start making blanks to sell to others.



I may have missed it but I have not seen where anyone has asked how to do it so they can sell it.

As for why people might expect knowledge to be shared is because that is what this group primarily is. With that being true it is not saying that "All knowledge is shared". Nor should all knowledge be shared. 

If you have something that you are not willing to share "How it is done" there are two choices.
1. do not show it on this group as it is expected people will ask how to do it.
2. show it and be straight up when asked to tell how you did it by saying " I am not telling" and live with your choices. there are going to be reactions to that statement and they are not unexpected given the nature of the group.

there are place to show such work where secrets are expected and questions are not asked. this is not one of them.


----------



## Rmartin

wolftat said:


> My concern about it becoming public stems from the practice of taking our hard work and turning it into mass made blanks, like the circuit board. I personally don't understand why so many want a tutorial instead of breaking it down on there own like most of us have. Why do we always need to take the easy way out of something that is either a business as it is for me or a hobby as it is for so many. I especially feel that when this was a hobby for me, figuring things out on my own waas much more gratifying than following directions. Since this is supposed to be about freedom of creation, why not try and create something that hasn't been done? I am always doing things in my shop to try and come up with something new and different.


 
You're preaching to the choir here. My only point about this particular style is that it's very labor intensive, so if people are too lazy to figure it out, they're going to be way too lazy to actually make one.

I also agree with you about creating something that hasn't been done. I've been working on a particular style on and off for 2 years. It's something I've never seen before, although I haven't specifically searched for it; not wanting to be influenced by what I might find. I haven't discussed it with anyone, because I hope to submit it to the Guild when and if I ever get it right.

I would conclude by saying to anyone out there, even though it seems like every type of pen imaginable has already been made, you just have to imagine better than that.


----------



## KenV

Think compound miters (angle in 3 dimensions) and make the practice pieces large --  It gets easier that way.


----------



## KenV

Related as it will show you the basics in segmentation to make the 360 is the book

Beyond Basic Turning by Jack Cox   Lynden Press  1993  ISBN 0-94196-25-2

This is out of printer but is available 2nd hand for a nominal price.   Good basic on segmentation that will get you the thinking tools for segment construction.   

The same basic techniques to make a 360 Herringbone pen blank will also make a 360 herringbone bowl blank --  Most of the pieces will likely be bigger.


----------



## rjwolfe3

http://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Basic-...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1245961198&sr=8-1

Amazon has it new and used!


----------



## wdcav1952

Rollerbob said:


> Well, well ,well a man trying his darndest to mind his own business, slaving on this dang bone design, and turn on the computer to find that his good name has been violated by a few Upperstatesmen.:frown: Questioning if he is able to withstand the heat of the kitchen, so to speak. Well, I'm here to tell ya, my boots are big enough to handle what's in them as well as what gets on them!!!!:biggrin::devil::cowboy:
> So, no harm no foul applies!!!!:rain::biggrin: Ed, Cav is still a little hurt about the "pink thing"! :tongue::tongue:



Nah, not hurt at all.  Just glad you didn't do a slimline!!


----------



## rjwolfe3

> Nah, not hurt at all.  Just glad you didn't do a slimline!



Been working on it Cav, but I am out of those tiny refills!!:tongue::biggrin:


----------



## leehljp

*Lazy OR Intuitive/Perceptive Challenged?*

There are two groups of people that are being lumped into one and both are being bashed because one is lazy.

I firmly believe if you don't work, you don't eat, and some will know what I am referring to - the Lazy. However, I can see quickly people jumping on me because they are out of work, and not because they are lazy. 

IN this same theme, Not EVERY person that is "intuitive and perceptive" challenged is lazy. I learned this the hard way. You folks that lump EVERY person into the "Lazy" camp because they can't figure things out - are very limited in your understanding of people. Should we limit people from driving because they don't understand the concepts between cetane and octane? For all practical purposes following that logic, we should! 

I work with many people who are brilliant and even some that are genius (just not ingenious) but they are intuitive and logic challenged. They are NOT lazy. What if I were to think like this: You do not think like me . . you are just dumb and lazy! This dismissive attitude usually comes from people who are inventive and visionary for sure and will often say of themselves "I am a self made man, I did this myself. I took the time to figure this out myself. So, you do the same. I am proud of myself. Myself! 

I speak as one who can usually figure things out almost instantly; I can look at something and figure out not only how it was made or how it works - but the starting point also. With this same intuitveness - I also watch people and figure out that many/most are not lazy but just "intuitive and perceptive" challenged. 

Where I am different from the non-sharing crowd - is that I am not going to penalize the intuitive and logic "challenged" because of the lazy few. LOTS of great people who are "list people". LOML is one and I wouldn't trade her for anything. She is anything BUT lazy. And so are many here. 


Lumping everyone into "LAZY" for the purpose of not sharing is dismissive, which is the antithesis of this forum's basic purpose.


----------



## darrylm

GaryMGg said:


> Finally, I want to draw your attention to the work being done by a friend of mine, Darryl M., who posts here infrequently:
> 
> http://lumberjocks.com/projects/18179
> 
> After you look at that link, look at a bunch of his projects online at the LJ.
> When I started conversing with Darryl about his work, he'd been making plain wood pens for many months. I knew he had a huge talent, but he was lazy -- he wouldn't push himself. I gnawed at him a bit and pushed and prodded and now he shines like the star he always was. Look at the mastery of his workmanship! I have nothing to do with the quality of his craft; I merely antagonized him enough to help him throw off the lazy man's yoke.
> So, I suggest, those of you who wish to learn to make the HB 360 -- throw off the lazy man's yoke, go out to the shop, and cut some wood. Glue some wood. Test your ideas. Test your mettle. Teach your inner child how to transform wishes and wants into self-fulfilling actualizations. _Train yourself to do rather than desire_. And, make some great pens.
> 
> Cheers,
> G



Gary did push me. In fact he pushed me real hard and I appreciate every single little bit of it!

I see nothing wrong with not sharing a process. I've toyed with the idea of figuring out the 360HB as well. I just haven't put a whole lot of effort into it yet. It could be an interesting way to twist up the bottle stoppers I've been making though...!

I like the concept of this thread as well. I think we do need to continue pushing ourselves and work out our own solutions.


----------



## ngeb528

Am I wrong or has this thread gotten away from it's intent?

I thought (right or wrong) that this was supposed to be a thread where those of us who don't know how to make a HB 360 were going to put forth ideas how to create one.

I think it's turning into a soap box for whether those of us who don't know how to do something deserve to have the knowledge given to us.

If the intent of this thread was to start this kind of philisophical discussion as to whether we should be given any help or knowledge, I humbly apologize. I think, however, there is a different thread that was already discussing that.

While I appreciate that there are different opinions on whether the knowledge should be shared, I think that further discussion on that should be continued on the other thread. 

I keep seeing people apologizing for hijacking other threads, so thought that a gentle reminder here would be appropriate and I apologize for getting caught up in the discussion of right or wrong myself.


----------



## RAdams

schnikies. 


That was a long 9 pages of reading. I think it is simple as this:

People are philophisizing on why people want a tutorial on this, and people are getting mad at each other for defending one side or aother. Fact is, with the amount of cutting and glue up, not to mention the size of the pieces, Not many people could or would do it even if they did have the know how.

I understand both sides, but as has been metioned, this thread was hijacked long ago. 

As soon as the "computer" blanks hit the market, there were guys trying to figure out how to do it. As soon as the snake hit the scene, there were cats trying to learn the secrets. 

Today, my wife and i went to the hardware store. They had a little mini parkbench. My wife pointed at it and said "we are going to get the Grandbaby one of those." I glanced at it, and said "No, I will make her one of those." 

Moral of that story: Don't show your top secret blank to a bunch of guys famous for saying "I can make that in my shop!" if you don't want them to hound dog you abot the how to's and where for's. 


For those trying to figure out the secret. As has been mentioned, there are tons of places that this information is easily accessible, you would just have to transfer it to the application. Segmented turning has been around ever since the first turner found himself with a box full of tiny pieces and lots of glue, and the Harringbone pattern almost as long.


----------



## akbar24601

ngeb528 said:


> Am I wrong or has this thread gotten away from it's intent?
> 
> I thought (right or wrong) that this was supposed to be a thread where those of us who don't know how to make a HB 360 were going to put forth ideas how to create one.
> 
> I think it's turning into a soap box for whether those of us who don't know how to do something deserve to have the knowledge given to us.
> 
> If the intent of this thread was to start this kind of philisophical discussion as to whether we should be given any help or knowledge, I humbly apologize. I think, however, there is a different thread that was already discussing that.
> 
> While I appreciate that there are different opinions on whether the knowledge should be shared, I think that further discussion on that should be continued on the other thread.
> 
> I keep seeing people apologizing for hijacking other threads, so thought that a gentle reminder here would be appropriate and I apologize for getting caught up in the discussion of right or wrong myself.



*That is a fine reminder indeed Nancy. You are absolutely correct! I do believe that there are at least two other threads going presently with plenty of "preaching" in them and that is fine. But, you are correct when you remind us that this particular thread is meant for those that wish to kick productive ideas around pertaining to the 360 HB.

So, in fairness to those that do wish to constructively brainstorm with their fellow pen turners, I would ask that you others that wish to continue the discussion of the rights, wrongs and whatevers of sharing information, please take it back to the other threads.

Thank you!
*


----------



## babyblues

Even an attempt to help us all work together to figure it out turns into a chest beating contest.


----------



## babyblues

Daniel said:


> I may have missed it but I have not seen where anyone has asked how to do it so they can sell it.
> 
> there are place to show such work where secrets are expected and questions are not asked. this is not one of them.



But Daniel, one of those "big companies" will steal the idea and make money from it and become famous and we will miss out on our fame and fortune!


----------



## Daniel

OK that I understand. seen it happen also.


----------



## Daniel

On the issue of kicking ideas around. I remember seeing at least a couple posts with people saying they got it. maybe we should start a list of those that have accomplished it or at least figured it out. I have an idea but have not been able to try it out. At any rate it would be encouraging to see a list of those that did make their way through it.


----------



## workinforwood

ok, throw me one bone.  What is the finished but unturned width of the blank please.  This is the only question I'll ask.  This will save me some lumber.


----------



## akbar24601

workinforwood said:


> ok, throw me one bone.  What is the finished but unturned width of the blank please.  This is the only question I'll ask.  This will save me some lumber.



Sorry Jeff, but that too is a variable.


----------



## babyblues

workinforwood said:


> ok, throw me one bone.  What is the finished but unturned width of the blank please.  This is the only question I'll ask.  This will save me some lumber.



What are you making?  A herringbone obelisk?  :biggrin:


----------



## workinforwood

No..I'm just making a jig to mass produce 8 sided herringbone blanks at a super cheap price to sell on ebay.
So when you say it varies..what you mean is it depends on the size of the pen you want it to fit, that's how I take it anyhow.  So if it's too big, make a bigger pen and downsize the next one is all.:wink:


----------



## Rmartin

workinforwood said:


> No..I'm just making a jig to mass produce 8 sided herringbone blanks at a super cheap price to sell on ebay.
> :wink:


 
That's just too funny, thank you!


----------



## twoofakind

I am in the process making a couple of blanks now and curious of other peoples method. Do you cut them on a table saw? Bandsaw? What glue are you using? I'm using CA and have glued my fingers to the blank a couple of times already! Oh, I'm also using a table saw for now.


----------



## Rmartin

twoofakind said:


> I am in the process making a couple of blanks now and curious of other peoples method. Do you cut them on a table saw? Bandsaw? What glue are you using? I'm using CA and have glued my fingers to the blank a couple of times already! Oh, I'm also using a table saw for now.


 
I use CA for most of my segmenting work.

Disposable gloves; get some; use them.


----------



## akbar24601

I use a bandsaw for the majority of my work. Primarily because I don't own an tablesaw.

CA all the way. You get used to the finger thing. As a matter of fact, it seems that the more glue that builds up on your finger tips, the less they stick to the piece. DAMHIKT:biggrin: Plus it really helps that my children are like monkeys and have discovered that it is fun to pick the glue from dads fingers!!!



twoofakind said:


> I am in the process making a couple of blanks now and curious of other peoples method. Do you cut them on a table saw? Bandsaw? What glue are you using? I'm using CA and have glued my fingers to the blank a couple of times already! Oh, I'm also using a table saw for now.


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## twoofakind

I think I got a little ambitious  with my first blank, I made them ~1/8" thick....I thought I would never get finished with that thing! The one I'm working on now I made the pieces a little thicker. I need to get a thicker blade for the band saw as I am losing a bunch in the thickness of the blade, for every cut I make I lose almost as much as I keep. 
Andy


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## TribalRR

I haven't made one in a long time, but at 1/8" thick you should need around 160 pieces and it usally takes me about 3 hours to cut and piece them together. BTW, I've switched to wood glue unless its not all wood.


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## leehljp

TribalRR said:


> I haven't made one in a long time, but at 1/8" thick you should need around 160 pieces and it usally takes me about 3 hours to cut and piece them together. BTW, I've switched to wood glue unless its not all wood.



Chip,

I am glad you chimed in on this. Your black/silver pen still stands out as the standard to which I can only aspire!


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## akbar24601

leehljp said:


> Chip,
> 
> I am glad you chimed in on this. Your black/silver pen still stands out as the standard to which I can only aspire!



You got that right Lee!!! That is still one of the sweetest pens that I have ever seen!!!!!


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## workinforwood

That only because you haven't seen my licorice pen Steve!  Not only is it sweet, but it's 50% edible, and only takes 2 minutes to make!


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## KenV

Once you can visualize the pieces and the construct, the jig opportunities become the challenge.


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## beck3906

TribalRR said:


> I haven't made one in a long time, but at 1/8" thick you should need around 160 pieces and it usally takes me about 3 hours to cut and piece them together. BTW, I've switched to wood glue unless its not all wood.


 
Is there a picture of this pen somewhere?


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## GaryMGg

There's a gentleman who posts on LJ 
He uses an old 8" Homecraft Table Saw with the blade reversed and the motor replaced by a connection to a bicycle crank and bottom bracket such that he
pedals the blade at about 1800 RPM. He makes 3D looking segmented wood projects.
If you search him out, it will be instructive; his username is WoodMosaics.

Cheers,
G


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## GaryMGg

beck3906 said:


> Is there a picture of this pen somewhere?


 
Here's one:
http://www.penturners.org/photos/images/5346/1_Hbone.JPG


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## rjwolfe3

Would anyone be willing to point me in the directions of the jigs for a bandsaw to attempt these blanks? My tablesaw sucks but I have a really nice bandsaw. I just feel like keeping all of my fingers at the end of the day. Not looking for a handout, just some direction.


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## NewLondon88

rjwolfe3 said:


> Would anyone be willing to point me in the directions of the jigs for a bandsaw to attempt these blanks? My tablesaw sucks but I have a really nice bandsaw. I just feel like keeping all of my fingers at the end of the day. Not looking for a handout, just some direction.



I think the 'secret' to jigs is to work backwards.

Imagine what it is you want to accomplish for a cut.
picture the blank being cut that way .. how is it positioned on 
the table? How is it oriented toward the blade?
Working backwards, what would you build to hold the blank
in this position? How would you make sure the jig would
travel the way you want it to? Would it ride in a miter slot?
against a rip fence? How would you secure the blank to it?
Clamps? a support block? More than one?


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## Rollerbob

NewLondon88 said:


> I think the 'secret' to jigs is to work backwards.
> 
> Imagine what it is you want to accomplish for a cut.
> picture the blank being cut that way .. how is it positioned on
> the table? How is it oriented toward the blade?
> Working backwards, what would you build to hold the blank
> in this position? How would you make sure the jig would
> travel the way you want it to? Would it ride in a miter slot?
> against a rip fence? How would you secure the blank to it?
> Clamps? a support block? More than one?


 Wooooooo and the mystery continues!!!:frown:


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## wolftat

workinforwood said:


> ok, throw me one bone. What is the finished but unturned width of the blank please. This is the only question I'll ask. This will save me some lumber.


 I did one that was about 4" wide before turning.


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## GaryMGg

A Celtic Knot could be a distant, distant cousin of an HB 360.
A `Feather' could be a distant, distant cousin to an HB 360.
If you look at the black and silver pen pictured about, what do you see?
How many pieces can you see both large and small?
:wink:


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## wolftat

twoofakind said:


> I am in the process making a couple of blanks now and curious of other peoples method. Do you cut them on a table saw? Bandsaw? What glue are you using? I'm using CA and have glued my fingers to the blank a couple of times already! Oh, I'm also using a table saw for now.


 I prefer to use a bandsaw and I am using thick CA. The glueing of the fingers to the blank is not required, but is an option that I have chosen to practice at every possible chance I get.:biggrin:


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## wolftat

rjwolfe3 said:


> Would anyone be willing to point me in the directions of the jigs for a bandsaw to attempt these blanks? My tablesaw sucks but I have a really nice bandsaw. I just feel like keeping all of my fingers at the end of the day. Not looking for a handout, just some direction.


 I'm still working on my bandsaw sled. I am trying to keep the rest of my fingers on my hand. When I get my sled done, I will be happy to post some pics and measurements if wanted.


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## wolftat

twoofakind said:


> I think I got a little ambitious with my first blank, I made them ~1/8" thick....I thought I would never get finished with that thing! The one I'm working on now I made the pieces a little thicker. I need to get a thicker blade for the band saw as I am losing a bunch in the thickness of the blade, for every cut I make I lose almost as much as I keep.
> Andy


 1/8" is a good size. I am doing all my cutting with a Laguna Resaw King blade and while this blade isn't the thinest blade I have ever used, it is very accurate for what I am doing. You will lose a lot of wood making these blanks, they are definetely not for those that are worried about the amount of wood it takes. I figure that every 360 takes about 3-4 full size blanks to make one. Right now, I am considering making one out of cocobolo burl but I really have to think about that one.


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## handplane

After trying to do this in Skectchup for a while I got out the old pencil, ruler, compass, and prtractor and figured it out in about 30 minutes.  At least with cardboard, tape, and CA.  Not sure if I will do it in wood yet.  I can see the need for some accurate cutting sleds and a lot of patience.


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## twoofakind

Once the cats out of the bag it will be interesting to see how many ways this can be done. I've got a couple started now, but I paused all my turning to try and straighten the garage up a little. So many projects, so little time...


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## hewunch

wolftat said:


> 1/8" is a good size. I am doing all my cutting with a Laguna Resaw King blade and while this blade isn't the thinest blade I have ever used, it is very accurate for what I am doing. You will lose a lot of wood making these blanks, they are definetely not for those that are worried about the amount of wood it takes. I figure that every 360 takes about 3-4 full size blanks to make one. Right now, I am considering making one out of cocobolo burl but I really have to think about that one.



I would think you would lose a bunch of the figuring if you did that.


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## darrylm

hewunch is right. with 1/8th" segments you do lose figuring. That's why I've always stuck with more or less solid colored woods in my segmentation. I'll save the figured stuff for flat work or larger turnings.

now to spend some time working on this 360HB...


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## skiprat

:redface:
So you think 1/8 is too thin huh?:biggrin:
I'm busy building another one now ( well, on and off for the last few days )
I've done 31 layers of 8 and it still is less than 25mm long
I estimate that the first and last 30 layers will be the un-usable waste as the top of my first layer is just level with the bottom of my last one.
This could take me years to finish:redface:


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## darrylm

no Mr Skiprat, I never said 1/8 is too thin! I personally just wouldn't bother using Wenge or Zebrawood in a piece like that.

can't wait to see what you've got going on though!


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## Greg O'Sherwood

I've watched this thread for a while now, but never got involved in trying to do the 360HB. Last weekend, our family got some bad news and my way of dealing with things is to get away (after everyone else is in bed) and immerse myself in something. 

I started at 10:40pm with my kids building blocks to get a rough idea of the problem. I switched to paper and pen after 20 minutes once the mathematics gears in my head started whirring (I was a mathematics major for a few years). 30 minutes later I had the pattern solved, but had gaps at the corners between the blank and the tube. Fixing that took another 5 minutes after I realized I could cut the pieces from a predrilled blank (or cast to fill the gaps). I got to bed at about 4:10am. I do need to clean up the cuts next time.

First, I'd like to thank the OP for starting this discussion.
2nd,thanks to those of you who know how to do it for not just putting a tutorial out there. You provided me a much needed escape for a few hours. This includes those who are sworn to secrecy and kept their word. NO ONE SHOULD ASK A MAN TO BREAK HIS WORD.

Soon enough, there will be a tutorial somewhere and then this will be public domain. It IS a lot of work.


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## Don Gaiser

Well, it took about 2 hours, but using Lightwave I have figured out how to build the 360 HB. Looking at it, I imagine you are looking at hours and hours of tedious work to complete.


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## NewLondon88

skiprat said:


> :redface:
> So you think 1/8 is too thin huh?:biggrin:
> I'm busy building another one now ( well, on and off for the last few days )
> I've done 31 layers of 8 and it still is less than 25mm long
> I estimate that the first and last 30 layers will be the un-usable waste as the top of my first layer is just level with the bottom of my last one.
> This could take me years to finish:redface:



We don't consider construction paper and Elmer's glue to be 'segmenting'...
.. but nice try, Skip :tongue:


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## Displaced Canadian

I think that this a great thread. One question if I may. Can you make the HB360 as a 4 sided pattern?


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## glycerine

I think I have it mostly figured out.  I don't have the angle quite right becuase I've got a gap.
I AM using triangles.  When one layer is glued up, looking at it from the top reveals a star shape, but not necessarily 5 points.  Until I get the angle right, I can't add any layers, but does it sound like I have the right idea?


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## Displaced Canadian

I haven't mastered it yet myself.I have come to the same conclusion as you. Triangles and a 5 pointed shape so I think you are on the right track,mine has a habit of twisting into a corkscrew as I put it together so I think I need a slighter angle.


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## Displaced Canadian

Solved the corkscrew problem, something that helped me is that when you have a valley in a roof the valley itself is a slightly different pitch than the roof. The angle of your cuts will not add up to 360.


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## glycerine

I have a blank glued up, just need to turn it now.  Is anyone else still trying to figure this out or did I just join that game late?


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## Displaced Canadian

I was glad to see you, we both joined late. I haven't built a blank yet, have my first paying customer to take care of.arty: I would like to see another thread like this one, bounce around ideas, try something completely new. I'm thinking stained glass/murals you have any ideas?


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## hewunch

I glued up my blank last night. I can tell you that the width of your piece matters. My blank started out ~1.75" in diameter and I was using pieces that were ~.25" thick. When I got my  blank round I was excited because it looked right. But when I got it closer to final size my rectangles became squares. So my suggestion is, try thin pieces.


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## glycerine

Displaced Canadian said:


> I was glad to see you, we both joined late. I haven't built a blank yet, have my first paying customer to take care of.arty: I would like to see another thread like this one, bounce around ideas, try something completely new. I'm thinking stained glass/murals you have any ideas?


 
No ideas yet really.  I'm still fairly new at pen turning and want to start doing some segmented pens.  I like the pens I've seen that incorporate wood and metal as well.  What I'd like to see is a spiral pen blank, sort of like some of the candlesticks that are out there if you know what I mean.  I have a feeling that just about anything could be done with a laser cutter...


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## glycerine

hewunch said:


> I glued up my blank last night. I can tell you that the width of your piece matters. My blank started out ~1.75" in diameter and I was using pieces that were ~.25" thick. When I got my blank round I was excited because it looked right. But when I got it closer to final size my rectangles became squares. So my suggestion is, try thin pieces.


 
I wasn't thinking of that... but my pieces were just over 1/8 I THINK, so hopefully it will "turn" out ok.  I might also just use a large pen.


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## glycerine

Displaced Canadian said:


> I think that this a great thread. One question if I may. Can you make the HB360 as a 4 sided pattern?


 
I think you CAN, but it would be harder to get the angles just right.


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## Displaced Canadian

Good to know about the thickness of the pieces, I'll start with 1/8 or less and see what happens. I'm planing to make a decorative band instead of a whole blank.
 Robert Sorbey makes a chisel that can cut spirals then you could use a resin like materiel to fill in the groves. It may be possible to do a spiral with wood pieces working in a 360 degree pattern. I'm new to pen turning as well but not to woodworking. Next for me on the drawing board is a shark made with straight cuts, I don't own a bandsaw.


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## Kaspar

workinforwood said:


> No..I'm just making a jig to mass produce 8 sided herringbone blanks...



That would seem to be the correct approach.  The picture on the first page really appears to be a four side herringbone, with the same sides opposing each other.  It may not be a truly radial herringbone pattern, but it's a slick piece of work bespeaking great talent, no question.

To make it truly radial would, I think require compound angles and / or radial cuts, possibly on  very small pieces.  (I am doing something similar to this now to make end caps and a centerband on a closed end job that I hope to  show in the not-to-distant future.)  Of course, the more sides you put on square, the closer it comes to approximating a circle.  Get enough sides going around your pen tube, and once you round it down, it will surly be 'radial' enough.


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## glycerine

I finally did it!


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## gad5264

Jeremy, that is a great looking pen. The combination of turquoise and wood is stunning.


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## glycerine

gad5264 said:


> Jeremy, that is a great looking pen. The combination of turquoise and wood is stunning.


 
Thank you!


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## LarryDNJR

*Whew*

I finally read through this whole thread.  Interesting read and I know I'm a little late in posting a comment to it. 

I do want to say glycerine (Jeremy) that is a mighty fine piece of work you did with that pen.  Awe-inspiring work!  

I just recently started to tinker with attempting to make similar style of pens myself.  It is truly fascinating.


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## PaulDoug

:beat-up:Ahhh,thanks a lot Larry for opening this thread again, I quit trying a long time ago on this because it gave me such a headache, broke out in a rash and started drinking. Now I have a headache again, rash is back and, oh where is that bottle....

I just have to come to grips with it, I am one of the deficiently challenged people:crying:


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## glycerine

LarryDNJR said:


> I finally read through this whole thread. Interesting read and I know I'm a little late in posting a comment to it.
> 
> I do want to say glycerine (Jeremy) that is a mighty fine piece of work you did with that pen. Awe-inspiring work!
> 
> I just recently started to tinker with attempting to make similar style of pens myself. It is truly fascinating.


 
Thanks!


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## Rfturner

I am a late starter on this one I have been following the thread, I have been so busy that I have not attempted it but i do have several ideas how so far. I agree with many of the people on mass production fears. I have designed blanks from scratch before and the first person that creates a design has the most time invested into it. From that point of view I cautiously put things up that I do not want copied. I offer advice to those that ask and encourage newer turners but Some things are meant to be shared and some things I learned the hard way but it forced me to understand. I appreciate this as not just a tutorial I feel that it makes one not fully appreciate it.


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