# Can't get CA/BLO process down



## Cowboy (Sep 26, 2005)

I cannot get the hard shiny finish that you guys get with CA/BLO.  Here is my process with a pink ivory blank last evening:
1. Turn wood 
2. start sanding with 220 grit then 320 grit paper
3. coat with mylands cellulose sanding sealer (the reason for the sanding sealer is to seal the grain so the higher grits (dark grit paper) do not fill in and stain the wood)
4. sand with 400 grit coat with sanding sealer
5. sand with 800 grit coat with sanding sealer
6. sand with 1000 grit coat with sanding sealer
7. Use 1500 - 3600 MM from PSI

Now that I am sufficently sanded, I take a papertowel and coat the end with BLO.

8. Coat the pen blank with BLO (I think the lathe is around 900 rpm)
9. apply 7 drops of thin CA across the blank
10. repeat step 9 - 2 more times
11. burnish with paper towel

I will post some pictures tonight.  While the finish is nice looking, it isn't super glossy as I have seen on other pens.  Should I use the CA as a grain filler in between sanding?  Can I apply CA without BLO?  Any clue as to what I am doing wrong?

Thanks!

Chris


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## Old Griz (Sep 26, 2005)

I don't do a BLO/CA finish anymore... I found that if you use a bit too much BLO the finish would either cloud or not be as glossy...
I use just straight CA
I have a couple of suggestions... 
First get rid of the dark sanding paper... you can buy real nice light colored paper from Klingspoor (See Dario's Bulk Buy on the paper) and not worry about dark sanding dust in the wood... 
Wipe down the blank between grits with DNA to remove the sanding dust... you dont have to sand with sanding sealer for each grit.
After you have sanded through the MM grades. apply 2 light coats of sanding sealer, let it dry and sand to 12000MM to a high gloss..
I then apply 2-3 thin coats of THICK CA allow it to completely cure and sand through to 12000MM followed by automotive polishing compound and either plastic polish or automotive anti-swirl cream


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## Cowboy (Sep 26, 2005)

Tom:

    Gotcha on the Klingspor paper, I will pick some up.  This is the micromesh that I have http://www.pennstateind.com/store/mmesh.html  Is this the right stuff to use?  Which thick CA do you recommened?

Thanks!

Chris


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## Old Griz (Sep 26, 2005)

Berea carries the complete kit of all grits to 12000MM for $10.. here is the link.. go to the bottom of the page .. since the site has not be updated in some time the price listed might be off.. 
http://www.bereahardwoods.com/page24.htm#micromesh

I buy my CA in the bulk buys that come around as I need it.. last batch I got from Daniel... just about any brand works fine... I have heard problems with HotShot, but have never used it... 
One thing I will mention is that I only use Viva paper towels.. yes believe it or not brand matters.. I find these to be the best for applying just about any finish from CA to Enduro


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## Cowboy (Sep 26, 2005)

Tom:

     If I am going to use micromesh where 1500 = 400 grit wet/dry sandpaper, why would I buy the sterate sandpaper?  I buy the norton 3x paper which has a light grit in both 220 and 320 grit.  Do you feel that the sterate paper is better than MM and switch over to MM at a much higher level?  Which I guess is 6000MM?

Chris


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## Old Griz (Sep 26, 2005)

I use the sandpaper on the wood and wet sand MM on the CA finish, for Enduro I dry sand with MM... just the way I do it.. not necessarilly the right way and definately not the only way, but it works for me...
I generally can start MM wet sanding at 4000 after the CA is cured... it all depends on how smoothly you get the CA to cover...


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## RussFairfield (Sep 26, 2005)

There are 3 variants in your finishing schedule that could cause problems. 

A CA finish is best applied over a CA sealer. CA doesn't stick that well to either a lacquer or shellac based sanding sealer because of what is in the sealer to make it sandable. Wipe on a coating of CA glue and sand back to where the glue is IN the wood and not ON the wood. Then apply the CA/BLO finish.

You have the CA and BLO reversed, something that almost everybody does. It is a CA/BLO finish and not a BLO/CA finish. The idea is to lay down the CA glue on the surface, and then add the BLO on top of it to act as a lubricant and accelerant for the glue. By putting the BLO on first and under the CA glue, you are forcing the glue to penetrate down through the oil to bond with the wood, and that is impossible to do. Anyone who says they are getting a good finish this way is just lucky. 

Use a thicker CA glue. The thin reacts too fast, and there isn't enough working time to get it to flow out into a smooth surface film.

And, don't be alarmed if you still don't like the finish that you are getting. I prefer to use the CA glue without the BLO, and then sanding and polishing to get the gloss. But, as I said, this is a personal preference.


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## Cowboy (Sep 26, 2005)

Russ:

     I was just following the proceedure that I downloaded from this site.  http://www.penturners.org/content/ca-blo.pdf

I am going to try the new papertowel and thick CA tonight.  Will the Superglue gel from Home depot work fine until I can order some online?  How rough is the finish usually before sanding?  What grit do you start sanding with?

When doing a straight CA finish, do you use paper towel or waxpaper?

Thanks!

Chris


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## jb_pratt (Sep 26, 2005)

I was having all kinds of problems with the CA/BLO finish.  I had unsuccessfully tried numerous times, read everything I could get my hands on.  I put out a posting on this site looking for someone who lived in the same metropolitan area who was successful at applying this finish.  Within a day I had gotten a reply, spent an hour at this gentlemenâ€™s shop watching him apply the finish; I was able to go back to my shop and replicate the process without any problems.  So my suggestion is put up a message to see if someone who lives close to where you are at would be willing to have you over and show you.  Just a thoughtâ€¦.


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## Dario (Sep 26, 2005)

I use batting material when I apply CA.  It is made of synthetic material and CA doesn't set as fast when you use it.  It really works well for me but I heard others who doesn't like it.

I hold it using the plastic wrappers that the pen kits come in.

WARNING: Some people had problems using it though...it can get snagged on the turning pen and will form a ball around your pen.  If that happens you can use the skew to remove it.  []


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## rtparso (Sep 26, 2005)

I know that there are as many ways to apply CA as there are turners using it. I like to use thin CA. I apply it to the raw wood before I start sanding with MM (320 ?) I apply the thin CA by dribbling the CA from the bottle with the lathe spinning slow and smooth it with my finger. I remove (burnish) the excess with saw dust this also fills any pores or small oops. Then I sand with MM to 12000. If I want gloss I repeat the CA application and sand through the MM again. Then I use Hut PP to out I final shine on. This does not give a built up finish more like an oil finish. The PP is only a wax with a polishing compound so it will be gone in a few weeks of use. Even my corian pens end up with a satin finish after a few weeks of pocked wear.


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## Cowboy (Sep 27, 2005)

Success!  I went to Home Depot last night and bought "gel" CA and Stop and Shop to buy Viva! papertowels.  

Here is my pen finish before penturners.org:







Here it is after:






It is hard to tell from the picture, but the second pen is so glossy it looks like plastic.  So what did I do?

1) turn and sand to mm3600
2) using a viva! paper towel and the gel CA applied the CA until the CA cured and wrapped the paper towel around the blank[!]
2.5) threw out the bottle of gel CA since it was obviously the wrong stuff
3) grabbed my skew and gouged the blank[}]while removing the Viva! paper towel
4)smoothed out the gouge from the gouge and resanded to mm3600
5) grabbed a piece of viva! paper towel, my gap filling CA, and a spray bottle of accelerator
6) applied a few coats of gap filling CA curing it with the accelerator after every application
7) sanded from 400 to mm3600 and finally used some window polish for plastic Jeep Wrangler windows

It looks great and is easy to apply.

Chris


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## Old Griz (Sep 27, 2005)

Ok Chris... looks like you are just about there... Great job on the second pen.. 
Don't you just love [!][!] the learning curve... [}][}]
now go out and get MM from 4000-1200 grit and do it again... you will be amazed at the difference again... 
Also do not spray the CA with accelerator after each application... it can cause the CA to foam and present all kinds of other problems.. 
Just put 2-3 light coats of Thick CA on and allow to cure between coats then start your MM.


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## Cowboy (Sep 27, 2005)

Tom:

    I think I am going to place an order with International violin.  How long does it normally take the CA to "cure?"  A few minutes?  Maybe I do not need the accelerator.  

Chris


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## Old Griz (Sep 27, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Cowboy_
> <br />Tom:
> 
> I think I am going to place an order with International violin.  How long does it normally take the CA to "cure?"  A few minutes?  Maybe I do not need the accelerator.
> ...


If you put the coats on thin, like I do, you should be able to put the next coat on in under 5 minutes..


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## Troy Cole (Sep 27, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Old Griz_
> <br />I use the sandpaper on the wood and wet sand MM on the CA finish, for Enduro I dry sand with MM... just the way I do it.. not necessarilly the right way and definately not the only way, but it works for me...
> I generally can start MM wet sanding at 4000 after the CA is cured... it all depends on how smoothly you get the CA to cover...


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## Troy Cole (Sep 27, 2005)

Old Griz, Could you please tell me what you use to wet sand with, I'm not sure what I should use. Thanks, Troy Cole


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## Old Griz (Sep 27, 2005)

Water.. just plain old water...


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## Turnedoutright (Oct 14, 2005)

Here is what my technique is:



<br />	

To get a CA finish you:
	1. Turn the pen and sand to 400 grit (I use mineral spirits as a lubricant at 400 grit). The smoother the surface the higher the shine.
	2. Spray the pen with CA accelerant while it is spinning on LOWEST speed
	3. Fold a peice of tissue paper (styrofoam peanuts work good) to create a pad and hold it under the spinning pen. (DONT GLUE YOUR FINGERS TO THE TURNING PEN!)
	4. Drip CA on the top surface moving from left to right. The CA dispenser dripping on top and the tissue rubbing lightly on the bottom. The CA will harden very quickly when it hits the accelerator and the tissue on the bottom smoothes it out. It doesn't take much glue. The skill is to get the CA spread evenly across the surface before it sets. Wear a mask and keep your face away from the surface, the accelerator gives off nasty fumes.
	5. Sand the surface with 300-400 grit, I like to use water as the lubricant. The surface will turn white where the ridges are, sand it until it is almost level but do not go through the CA. You can also use a small skew to level large ridges, be careful not to go through to the wood.
	6. Go back to step 1 and repeat step 1-5 at least 3 times, I recommend 5 times.
	7. The last time through steps 1-6 will leave the surface milky, not to worry it will polish up. Make sure the surface is evenly milky, shinny spots mean that they are lower than the milky areas and the surface is not level.
	8. Use Tripoli and a soft cloth to polish the surface at high speed. Then move to ruby or diamond buffing compounds. For the last step I just use a soft cloth and water.
	9. Use a small skew (point down) to part at the interfaces of busing and wood. [Be careful it is east to slip and cut into the barrel an d deeply scratch the finished surface. If you do you can repair the scratch by filling it with CA and sanding.] This prevents the CA from cracking when the bushings are removed for assembly.
	10. Carefully rub the ends of the pen barrels on a piece of 400 grit that is on a flat surface to remove the remaining CA that is overhanging the pen body sections. Be careful not to sand into the square ends, you are only trying to remove the thin edge of CA that overhangs the wood.
	Problems;
	Not getting enough CA on the surface IE: More porous woods or uneven surfaces need more coats.
	Not sanding enough between coats leaves surface ripples.
	Running the lathe at to high a speed when applying CA, LOWEST SPEED.
	Be careful not to get to much CA across the bushing wood interface as it will be difficult to remove in step 10.

Not the best picture but you can get an idea of the smooth shine achieved with this process.

Hope this is usefull.


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## jhinze (Oct 18, 2005)

Man-oh-man. I wish I would have read this thread last night before attempting to use the CA/BLO process as linked in the documents section. I turned a wenge slimline pen with the sole purpose of trying this finish. Followed the directions and mucked it up. I got a dull blotchy surface. Here's what I think I did wrong:

1. As oldGrizz pointed out, too much BLO isn't a good thing. I beleive that I used entirely too much.
2. Applying the CA and sanding with MM 4000-12000 before it was entirely cured. I only waited a few minutes and that was not enough. As soon as the MM4000 touched the blank, it was no longer shiny and polished, but dull... almost filmy.
3. Perhaps I need to try some accelerator to speed things along...

I'm going to give it another try tonight on a different wood, something domestic, perhaps the wenge was the wrong blank to try first.


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## alamocdc (Oct 18, 2005)

Jim, I quit using BLO completely. Don't worry about the MM4000 dulling the blank, the finer grits will polish it back up... at least they do for me. I don't use accelerator and I only use thick CA. One application usually does the trick, but I run the bead up and down the barrel twice each direction. On rare occassions (more opened grain woods like Walnut, Oak and Wenge) two applications might be necessary. I'd use medium if I had it. Thin cures too quickly and requires too many coats. Just my method.


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## jhinze (Oct 18, 2005)

> _Originally posted by alamocdc_
> <br />Jim, I quit using BLO completely. Don't worry about the MM4000 dulling the blank, the finer grits will polish it back up... at least they do for me. I don't use accelerator and I only use thick CA. One application usually does the trick, but I run the bead up and down the barrel twice each direction. On rare occassions (more opened grain woods like Walnut, Oak and Wenge) two applications might be necessary. I'd use medium if I had it. Thin cures too quickly and requires too many coats. Just my method.



Thanks. In reading this thread, it seems a number of folks have abandoned the BLO when using CA. I do have medium CA and will give that a shot tonight.. if it come's out, I'll post some results []


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## MDWine (Oct 18, 2005)

I'm finally getting a decent CA finish, and don't use any BLO at all, except on the VIVA pad that I use to even out the coat.  It does take some sanding and polishing, however.  I've been using those "acrylic" sanding pads on it, and they turn out great!  I also started using some of the auto finishing polish on it, and it brings it up to a very high gloss.


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## jhinze (Oct 19, 2005)

Well I gave the CA only method a try on 2 pens last night and am sold. Much better results, much more durable finish. Here are some pics of 2 pens I did, the photography sucks but I think you can see the results...




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