# Trying the make brick pattern...



## Tanner Simpson (Feb 10, 2021)

I have been trying the brick pattern for some time now. It always splits apart while drilling, even when drilling a pilot hole. No matter how slow, it splits. Any ideas? I’m using CA glue, but have tried 24 hour epoxy. No luck.


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## wouldentu2? (Feb 10, 2021)

Heat is the enemy of those adhesives.


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## hewunch (Feb 10, 2021)

What material are you trying to glue?


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## Tanner Simpson (Feb 10, 2021)

hewunch said:


> What material are you trying to glue?


Acrylic, with G10. I tried different woods with G10 in the past.


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## Tanner Simpson (Feb 10, 2021)

wouldentu2? said:


> Heat is the enemy of those adhesives.


What adhesive should I use?


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## hewunch (Feb 10, 2021)

Are you scuffing the glue faces?


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## Tanner Simpson (Feb 10, 2021)

hewunch said:


> Are you scuffing the glue faces?


Yes


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## hewunch (Feb 10, 2021)

Am I correct in saying it breaks when you hit the bottom of the blank?


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## Tanner Simpson (Feb 10, 2021)

hewunch said:


> Am I correct in saying it breaks when you hit the bottom of the blank?


No, it just randomly comes apart. I normally am able to finish drilling though.


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## Dieseldoc (Feb 10, 2021)

Tanner Simpson said:


> Acrylic, with G10. I tried different woods with G10 in the past.


I have used lot of G10  inlays and find only system three T-88 will work for pen segmenting. First of all you have to scuff up the g-10 , wipe clean and use the system three T-88 epoxy. Don’t over tighten and let cure for. three days. Drill with a very sharp bit, slowly. Turning to be done with carbide tools.
G-10 is a mixture of fiberglass and epoxy and is very hard to machine.
Try cutting with band saw wood blade will dull blade very fast, I cut my G-10 with shears and table saw carbide tip blade.
end results G-10 not a good product to use in segmenting pen’s.
Good luck!!!!


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## Tanner Simpson (Feb 10, 2021)

Dieseldoc said:


> I have used lot of G10  inlays and find only system three T-88 will work for pen segmenting. First of all you have to scuff up the g-10 , wipe clean and use the system three T-88 epoxy. Don’t over tighten and let cure for. three days. Drill with a very sharp bit, slowly. Turning to be done with carbide tools.
> G-10 is a mixture of fiberglass and epoxy and is very hard to machine.
> Try cutting with band saw wood blade will dull blade very fast, I cut my G-10 with shears and table saw carbide tip blade.
> end results G-10 not a good product to use in segmenting pen’s.
> Good luck!!!!


What about card stock? Would that work better?


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## Monty (Feb 10, 2021)

Try wrapping your blanks with gauze and saturating it with thin CA . When that dries, then drill the hole slowly backing the bit out often to clear the dust from the flutes of the bit.


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## leehljp (Feb 10, 2021)

What Mannie (Monte) said. In some cases of segments, it is not about the adhesive, it is about strength and integrity of the whole. The old guys were well aware of this and originally wrapped two or three layers of thread or string around the blank (but now several layers of gauze) and CA the heck out of it. THEN drill. 

Not sure if you ever thought about this or not, but did you ever wonder why a 5/8 in blank would blow out when drilling with a 3/8 in bit, but drill the same bit through a 2x4 and not even a hint of a blowout. -> Integrity of the wood. In some of my segments, gauze and CA is precisely what I use to keep it from coming apart while drilling.


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## Tanner Simpson (Feb 10, 2021)

leehljp said:


> What Mannie (Monte) said. In some cases of segments, it is not about the adhesive, it is about strength and integrity of the whole. The old guys were well aware of this and originally wrapped two or three layers of thread or string around the blank (but now several layers of gauze) and CA the heck out of it. THEN drill.
> 
> Not sure if you ever thought about this or not, but did you ever wonder why a 5/8 in blank would blow out when drilling with a 3/8 in bit, but drill the same bit through a 2x4 and not even a hint of a blowout. -> Integrity of the wood. In some of my segments, gauze and CA is precisely what I use to keep it from coming apart while drilling.


Not sure I can quite picture what you’re saying to do. You just wrap it with gauze and drizzle CA on the blank? May I ask what you are drilling on (lathe/drill press)?


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## Dieseldoc (Feb 10, 2021)

Tanner Simpson said:


> What about card stock? Would that work better?


Card stock works well. Also if you have to use G-10 west system  G-Flex works very good , designed for the boat industry..
G-flex is pricy but never failed.


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## leehljp (Feb 10, 2021)

Tanner Simpson said:


> Not sure I can quite picture what you’re saying to do. You just wrap it with gauze and drizzle CA on the blank? May I ask what you are drilling on (lathe/drill press)?


Yes. Wrap with layers of gauze and CA the heck out of it.

Picture this: https://www.penturners.org/media/imported-photo-from-leehljp.3500/
Black plastic and white holly. CA or epoxy (used epoxy on the above. Doesn't take much pressure to cause a rift in one spot and then the whole thing comes apart in drilling or turning. So imagine how to keep it from coming apart. Just wrap it tight with something to keep it together an add CA. Almost the same as fiberglass. It stays together while drilling. Do a great job of gluing the tube into the drilled hole and you have more strength from the tube.

Then turn taking small bites using a very sharp tool. This technique allows far more segments to stay together when using glued segments.


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## jttheclockman (Feb 10, 2021)

Now I have heard this method of wrapping gauze and CA so many times here for over 15 years, and I am working on a method that I think will help in the future but that is for another day. My question is if you wrap all this gauze and CA how in the world do you hold the blank so it can be drilled true down the center. Are you returning it round so it can be held by a chuck of some sort. ??  Now I am an old timer here so do not pull wool over my eyes. I want to know your true method so it can be documented for future inquiries. If you have photos, even better. Go for it.


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## Old Hilly (Feb 10, 2021)

If your blank is square/rectangular, why not just clamp it together while you drill it and then, while it's still clamped up, insert your tube with the right sort of adhesive and wait for the adhesive to cure? Just looking at the photo, it looks like the adhesive hasn't bonded all that well with the blank so perhaps there is some way to get a better bond? And if the adhesive isn't bonding real well, could the pen come apart one day? Is there a different drill or drilling technique that would place less outward pressure on the join? Something that will remove the swarf from the drill hole as fast or faster than the drill bit will make it?


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## Old Hilly (Feb 10, 2021)

It take me a while to dredge through years of accumulated trivia but 10 or more years ago I knew a lady who worked for a sign company, They did mainly Acrylic signs and they had lots of tools that they had developed to work with the stuff. Amongst those saws and clamps were weird drill bits. Actually they came from the hardware store but then they were sharpened in a specific manner so they would drill this crap without cracking a chunk off the corner. I found something similar here: https://www.acrylite.co/drilling-acrylic.html
They also used an adhesive that was clear and water-thin but had to be applied with an old glass medical hypodermic syringe. It actually melted the material to fuse it together.


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## jttheclockman (Feb 10, 2021)

Old Hilly said:


> If your blank is square/rectangular, why not just clamp it together while you drill it and then, while it's still clamped up, insert your tube with the right sort of adhesive and wait for the adhesive to cure? Just looking at the photo, it looks like the adhesive hasn't bonded all that well with the blank so perhaps there is some way to get a better bond? And if the adhesive isn't bonding real well, could the pen come apart one day? Is there a different drill or drilling technique that would place less outward pressure on the join? Something that will remove the swarf from the drill hole as fast or faster than the drill bit will make it?


His problem is with the material he chose to try to do a segmenting with. It would be different if he did an inlay where the blank is not cut apart and he would have a better chance. But being he cut the blank apart and this G10 material is not friendly to being glued something like delrin  isn't. his problem is finding an adhesive that will work. I would try the System3 T88 epoxy too. It is my epoxy of choice on all types of segmenting. 

G10 material is a *high-pressure fiberglass laminate*. Created by the stacking of multiple glass cloth layers. This is done by soaking the glass in epoxy resin. Then by heat and pressure, it is compressed into the shape you are looking for.


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## mark james (Feb 11, 2021)

I would also suggest epoxy, but be careful to keep the drill bit cool.  I have used gauze/CA, building a box around the blank, and using a collet chuck.  Trial and error is a much maligned teacher .


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## leehljp (Feb 11, 2021)

jttheclockman said:


> Now I have heard this method of wrapping gauze and CA so many times here for over 15 years, and I am working on a method that I think will help in the future but that is for another day. My question is if you wrap all this gauze and CA how in the world do you hold the blank so it can be drilled true down the center. Are you returning it round so it can be held by a chuck of some sort. ??  Now I am an old timer here so do not pull wool over my eyes. I want to know your true method so it can be documented for future inquiries. If you have photos, even better. Go for it.


John, I am a little OCDC when it comes to sizing and measuring. I try to do with wood what is only possible with metal in measuring - and it does not always work that good for me, but I keep trying. I mark the center spots precisely before wrapping with gauze. On the stripe pen, even .1 mm off of center shows up when turning. (You know that but I wrote it for the benefit of others.) I make my stripe pens two different ways - square and octagon, but always with solid center and drilling the hole after the blank is made. (I mention the Mark James method below) Wrapping is done after the parts are in place as a blank.

I tend to just get started, and sometimes figure out the next step when I get to it. This is a recipe for a 30% - 50% success with each blank at the absolute best. I "think" it has been about 5 years since I turned a stripe pen, so I am going from memory. *I start off with perfect square (or octagon) and wrap the middle to within about 1/2" inch of the ends.* (OH, I mark the center as mentioned above, and this is where I mess up about 10% - 20% of the time by being off by .1mm.
• Next, I put one end in a pin chuck up to the gauze line and the other end to the live center - where it is marked. Turn both ends round to about 1 inch taking delicate cuts.
• once the ends are round, I will add gauze to one round end and CA it. *THIS is the end that I will drill from,* which is why I re-gauze and CA this end. It is VERY important IMO to gauze and CA the end into which the drilling is started, as this is where the most probable for problems. - this could be a problem for some as some people get a wobble, and wobble is bad for stripes and some segments in which equal sizing all the way around are critical.
• re-set the pen chuck end to about 1 inch depth onto the blank and tighten, but not "crush" tight; (This is where some use collets) Set the drilling end to the live center to make sure it is centered precisely.  Turn on the lathe to check.
• remove the live center and replace with drill chuck and drill bit. (I usually use a center bit drill set to get started)
• Drill, this is tricky. I will usually drill for a snug fit. By having a slack of .1mm can cause an off center problems. Drill bit - I have numbered, lettered, fractional and metrics in whole and .5mm sizes up through 12.5. I also have a very good chart. I find a bit that is minutely' larger than the tube but without slack. (I would not do this with a solid snakewood or ebony blank.) I also do something that many do not do - I drill at high speeds and take small bits and pull out. High speed does create more heat but accuracy is increased - for me and my techniques. I make up for the heat problem by taking smaller bites and pulling back. (With my current lathe set up I have my air line near by and would use it to blow in between drill cuts to keep it cool.)
• remove from lathe, add tube, glue (in this case, I use 30 minute to 1 hour set epoxy) The tube is plugged to keep glue from getting in; I coat the inside and coat the tube. Once the epoxy has set, I test it to see if I have off center or not.

I have not perfected this to the point that I can get better than 50% perfection. But that is the price I am willing to take just to make one and also say that I can do it.

There are probably better and more consistent ways. I think Mark James and a couple of others "slice" with a thin kerf circular blade with lathe indexing. I think this method will work better and I haven't tried it yet.


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## jjjaworski (Feb 11, 2021)

Just a thought.....anyone tried electrical shrink wrap for this problem.
I realize that he heat required may effect the glue bond .


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## KenB259 (Feb 11, 2021)

One thing I never see mentioned on this topic, is the use of pen jaws. I use the Nova pen jaws in a G3 chuck, seems to hold my pen blanks very solidly and it's very rare, been years since I had a blank blow up when drilling. I have seen others on here bemoan the use of pen jaws, but they work great for me, Another reason I always make me blanks square, whether that be segmented or not, my blanks are square.


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## jttheclockman (Feb 11, 2021)

You guys are making my point for me. Again 15 years and I have heard just wrap the blank with gauze and CA it. That is fine if the blank does not require precise center hole drilling because of the pattern and so far I see no answer to this question. Hank your reply is long and confusing and how is a newbie going to understand  this?? I sort of follow you because I do stripes as well. But I have a blank I am working on right now that if a drill bit gets close to it it will explode. Already went down this path and I am an experienced segmenter. Using my best epoxy and tried step drilling and the whole nine yards. Now my brain went a different direction as to a solution but similar in what you are all showing. I can not say for certain it will work because I am still trying to decide what kit this pattern looks best on to show it all. 

But to get back to the question at hand. Surrounding the blank with solid wood maybe the best when it comes to designs ifyou can get a perfect square within a square and clamp it so that you drill dead down the center. When you wrap in gauze it bulges and no side is equal and clamping straight is impossible. 

I use pen chucks too as well as collet chucks. I prefer collet chucks because they grip around evenly.Pen jaws, you put pressure on two corner points and it can explode inward. 

Just one more point, wood segmented is far stronger than acrylics and or metals. With wood the glue can lock within the fibers of the grain. Acrylics and metals no such fibers. Yes you sand to give some tooth but still very fragile. When a tube is inserted within the blank then things get stronger. Thus the reason a blank does not fall apart when finished. 

Again if someone has a method to use gauze on a segmented blank that needs dead on center hole drilling Love to see it. Thanks.


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## leehljp (Feb 11, 2021)

jttheclockman said:


> Hank your reply is long and confusing and how is a newbie going to understand  this?


John T: You should pay attention to how or to who/whom you are addressing questions. My "long answer" was to YOUR question because you were not asking the OP or new pen turner. Just look at the below:



> JohnT: Now I have heard this method of wrapping gauze and CA so many times here for over 15 years, and I am working on a method that I think will help in the future but that is for another day.


For clarification, your above question is not addressed to the new turner or the OP, but it followed two well experienced posts on the gauze subject. And that question was followed up with the quote-question below - that a new person would not know. Therefore your question, and the answer you were seeking, were not related to the inexperienced.



> JohnT: Now I am an old timer here so do not pull wool over my eyes. I want to know your true method so it can be documented for future inquiries.


No one can read your mind JohnT. One minute you want detailed explanations so that "the wool can't be pulled over your eyes"; the next minute you say the answer is too long for you - but you dismiss it with "a newbie can't understand it". Don't you mean an "Oldie" can't understand it? Old age does strange things to us, John!


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## jttheclockman (Feb 11, 2021)

Hank I made the request or asked the question so that anyone who has wanted to do this can follow. If your answer was to me you still lost me and I am experienced. But if it works for you then good. When I said do not pull the wool over my eyes, I have seen replys here where people say just do this or do that but more experienced turners know this is not possible.


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## Monty (Feb 11, 2021)

jttheclockman said:


> .....Again if someone has a method to use gauze on a segmented blank that needs dead on center hole drilling Love to see it. Thanks.


John,
The closest thing that works for me is to wrap several layers of gauze smoothly around the blank and apply thin CA. when dry, mark the center of the blank and turn round between centers using a small spur drive if necessary. Once the blank is round, I use my collet chuck to hold the blank while drilling. This has worked well for my needs but YMMV.


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## jttheclockman (Feb 11, 2021)

Monty said:


> John,
> The closest thing that works for me is to wrap several layers of gauze smoothly around the blank and apply thin CA. when dry, mark the center of the blank and turn round between centers using a small spur drive if necessary. Once the blank is round, I use my collet chuck to hold the blank while drilling. This has worked well for my needs but YMMV.


This is sort of my thought but again would need to mark centers ahead of time and then add gauze and then turn round to fit my collet chuck. Probably the easiest way if doing with gauze. Thanks.


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## PatrickR (Feb 11, 2021)

Not a segmented myself but love how some of them look.
In skimming through this, the idea of heat shrink tube would seem to be a good one.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## jttheclockman (Feb 11, 2021)

PatrickR said:


> Not a segmented myself but love how some of them look.
> In skimming through this, the idea of heat shrink tube would seem to be a good one.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


It may work but it is not sturdy enough in my opinion. It will flex. Now maybe add some popsicle sticks under it to help make more stout.


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## jjjaworski (Feb 11, 2021)

jttheclockman said:


> It may work but it is not sturdy enough in my opinion. It will flex. Now maybe add some popsicle sticks under it to help make more stout.


John - It would be pretty light duty - even multiple layers . My thought to stiffen it up would be wood coffee stir sticks that would help keep things round since they are narrow compared to popsicle sticks.


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## jttheclockman (Feb 11, 2021)

jjjaworski said:


> John - It would be pretty light duty - even multiple layers . My thought to stiffen it up would be wood coffee stir sticks that would help keep things round since they are narrow compared to popsicle sticks.


Hey it could work. The stress will be from drilling. Turning you can control better with light cuts.


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## Tanner Simpson (Feb 12, 2021)

Tanner Simpson said:


> I have been trying the brick pattern for some time now. It always splits apart while drilling, even when drilling a pilot hole. No matter how slow, it splits. Any ideas? I’m using CA glue, but have tried 24 hour epoxy. No luck.


Thanks to all who replied. I finally got one drilled. I glued popsicle sticks to the side of it, which worked for me. Drilled real slow, took about 30 minutes. But it worked.


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