# Think before posting!



## OKLAHOMAN (Sep 27, 2010)

Over the last three nights I've had conversations with two of our long term members and both indicated that they were or have thought of leaving the IAP. The reasons given were concern over the direction some threads have gone and how in the last couple of years they seem to go south with personal attacks. Things said here are things that would never be said face to face for fear of physical attack. Snide remarks don't help anyone, if you disagree with someone thats fine but leave snide remarks in the back of your brain not on the keyboard. We have a feature here called PM (personel Message) take your disagreement off the thread and you just might find a new friend. 
In the last couple of years we've had members who were very active supporters of the IAP virtually stop posting or just check in once or twice a month, for various reasons, some personal,some just tired of what they think is crap.
Some of you newer as well as our older members are missing a wealth of knowlege from members like Dario, Al(Doc Stram),Anthony(penworks)Cav(wdcav1952) and yes even Steven(Skip Rat) just to name a few. Not saying these are the only members who have cut back posting or stopped altogether and for their own reasons. 
The reason I am writing this is that I have the upmost respect for two members that I spoke with and maybe this is a wake-up call to me. 
So before you post that snide or hurtful responce....stop reread your post, then hit delete
Lets all remember we're in Jeffs house and his guest, please act as a guest.

Ok so now I'm off my soap box.......


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## mick (Sep 27, 2010)

Thank you Roy...Well said!


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## rjwolfe3 (Sep 27, 2010)

Thank you Roy, I have been guilty of that in the past and I apologize to everyone for that. I too miss a lot of the guys that have stopped posting. I just wish we could get them back.


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## mbroberg (Sep 27, 2010)

I agree Roy!  Thanks for posting this.  I sure hope that the members you identified will start contributing again.  People like me NEED them.


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## dntrost (Sep 27, 2010)

Well said I know I was not a real regular but have also backed way off as I felt things had changed quite a bit on this site.  I do lurk but have stayed away from posting... Maybe this might just get people thinking about what this site was designed for and we are all Jeff's guests!


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## DurocShark (Sep 27, 2010)

Me too! 

I love wading in and flaming as much as anyone, but there are better places to do it than here.


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## wood-of-1kind (Sep 27, 2010)

Good reminder and I hope that our IAP members take the advice to 'heart'.


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## ThomJ (Sep 27, 2010)

Well said Roy. If I want to argue I just call one of the ex's


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## Ligget (Sep 27, 2010)

I agree with you Roy, 100%, this forum is losing too many great penturners! :frown:


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## cnirenberg (Sep 27, 2010)

Roy,
Well said.


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## jttheclockman (Sep 27, 2010)

Roy

Your words carry alot of trueth and in particular that there is a attidude change here and I have talked about this with several members here. Some members that have or do carry some weight here. I know myself have been guilty of some posts that I usually do not make but get caught up in the thread. I have tried staying away for some time because I have gotten some irritating PMs from people that need to look in the mirror. I am sure I am on people's ignore list but that is just fine. But there definetly has been a change in the atmosphere here which includes anything from sharing ideas, to sharing opinions. I do have to say though I have seen worse.

I can name so many big name players here that just do not show up or partake for one reason or another and this is a huge loss. I have talked with some members about these names and asked the question where would this site be if it were not for people that first joined this forum??  This is what I miss the most when I come here. 

With that said though there are some talented pen turners here that I hope stick around and continue to share. Of all the stupid posts about copyrights and protecting work and stuff like this is such a turnoff and that is not what this site is about at least that is what I thought years ago when I joined. 

We all have our quirks about ourselves and this is what makes us all different and we all have our threshold that gets us riled or buttons that get pushed to get us to the point we are not who we seemed to be. It is so easy to push that send button but it is just as easy to push the delete button so I guess I need to become more watchful before I pass judgement. But I hope other do too. 

What ties this all together is the need for more and more of these type posts. Over the past year or so I have seen so many of these type posts along with apology posts and people leaving posts and it makes you start to scratch ones head. Why are so many of these posts showing up. Is there a change in attidude here and what is driving it??  Is it the weather, the economy, the bordom or whatever??  Anyway hope it does turn around and gets better. Hate to loose even more good folks here. It is a pleasure to have such a site and all the hard work that goes into it behind closed doors does get overlooked at times and it should not.

Well I finally did it and made a reply to one of these types of posts.


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## Dalecamino (Sep 27, 2010)

Thanks Roy. I've been noticing the absence of these members myself and, have wondered if "I" was in any way responsible with my posts. If that's the case, I sincerely apoligize to each one and, request them to send a PM with their thoughts. I do miss following their threads and, gleaning from them.


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## Dave_M (Sep 27, 2010)

Well said Roy.  And lets not forget that a big part of how we season the meat of our conversations with one other is through nonverbal cues.  Vocal inflections, body language, the look of our eyes, and so on.  All this is taken away from us in an Internet forum environment aside from the occasional smiley added to the text.  It increases the opportunity for our comments to be miscommunicated by a large factor.  Add to that the fact that some people simply don't think before they speak anyway and we have plenty of opportunity for disagreement and word wars on Internet forums.  The fact that it doesn't happen more frequently in places like IAP and one other (non pen related) forum I frequent I think is a testament to the quality of the people that make up these small Internet communities.  

If I do develop a habit of offending forum members then send me a respectful PM to help me understand.  Posting negative comments or sending disrespectful PMs is only adding fuel to the fire.  Don't waste your time pointing out my offensiveness by being offensive.  Otherwise point it out to the mods and let the mods deal with it as they deem necessary.   

Personally I find it best to keep my responses a little less colorful than usual and not too personal.  Too many genuinely good people here to have me littering up the place with jokes and sarcasm at some one else's expense considering my comments will probably get miscommunicated anyway because you can't see the respectful smile on my face or hear the respectful gratitude in my voice.


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## Jim15 (Sep 27, 2010)

Good post Roy, thanks.


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## bruce119 (Sep 27, 2010)

I too want to say good post Roy and though I am not a long time member and not a newbie either. It would be nice if we could get something like this message to each new member something like required reading before joining. Just look at the join dates of those that responded to this thread most are long time members. I think the newer members just need a little direction.

Thanks Roy

Hey Cuban time in the Spring maybe :highfive:

.


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## MesquiteMan (Sep 27, 2010)

OK, how do we fix things?  Do we just let people try to watch their own tone and temper their own messages?  Or do we step up moderation on these types of issues?  I am all ears for suggestions, especially since I now have 2 new moderators for help.


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## bruce119 (Sep 27, 2010)

Well in any group there's always just a small few that don't get it or like to cause trouble. As these individuals are identified they should be pulled aside and be set straight. Communication just letting someone know will usually fix it. In our case a PM from a Moderator.

just a thought I belonged to a few clubs.

.


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## MesquiteMan (Sep 27, 2010)

Bruce,

In a perfect world, that would be great.  However, I have done that MANY times in the past and I just end up getting arguments from the person who I send the PM to.


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## DurocShark (Sep 27, 2010)

Maybe set a timeframe...

From now until 12/31/10 inappropriate posts will be handled by one of the mods PM'ing the poster and editing the post. That is labor intensive, but only for the next few months.

After that, posts that one of the mods finds inflammatory, inappropriate, etc, just get deleted. Nothing else.

I suspect that the idea of a zero butthead tolerance policy will percolate through pretty quickly...

Or we can encourage pile-ons of the butthead post makers... :biggrin:


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## devowoodworking (Sep 27, 2010)

MesquiteMan said:


> OK, how do we fix things?  Do we just let people try to watch their own tone and temper their own messages?  Or do we step up moderation on these types of issues?  I am all ears for suggestions, especially since I now have 2 new moderators for help.



Curtis, I think you already have made a big difference by adding moderators to help you...they have garnered the respect of the group, so when they step in many guys will 'toe the line'.  The dynamic of the group is always going to change/evolve, everything works itself out in the end!


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## bruce119 (Sep 27, 2010)

MesquiteMan said:


> Bruce,
> 
> In a perfect world, that would be great. However, I have done that MANY times in the past and I just end up getting arguments from the person who I send the PM to.


 
I know your a tuff spot something like between a rock and a hard place. I was a president of a model airplane club with over 200 members for 2 years. Now I want nothing to do with politics don't even ask me to be a moderator. I am glad to help and donate. I know your job is tuff there is no answer that will make everyone happy.


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## Nikitas (Sep 27, 2010)

I know I am a new member and nothing turns me away faster than trashing other members on these kinda groups. I find these forums are a wealth of information. I have learned alot from the guys here and hope to learn much more. Just my $.02. I hope this forum stays around for a VERY long time!
Brian


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## PenMan1 (Sep 27, 2010)

Thanks Roy! This needed to be said. Disagreements about pen stuff is natural. But personal attacks have no place here and do NOT add value to anything.


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## PTownSubbie (Sep 27, 2010)

MesquiteMan said:


> Bruce,
> 
> In a perfect world, that would be great. However, I have done that MANY times in the past and I just end up getting arguments from the person who I send the PM to.


 
Curtis,

You are in a very tough situation but you do a GREAT job at it!!! I wouldn't want to be in your shoes most days.

But, if that person that you have problems with doesn't want to comply with Jeff's rules, you have all the right in the world to perform your bouncer duties and show that person to the door. You don't argue with the Sheriff that just pulled you over for speeding, do you?

Maybe it is the Military side of me but rules are rules. Follow them or hit the road.

Roy,

I haven't been here long but have definately missed the 'old guys' that you listed. Thanks for the mentoring!!


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## cowchaser (Sep 27, 2010)

Not much to say other than "guilty"


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## mbroberg (Sep 27, 2010)

I think moderation is, to some respect, the responsibility of every member here.  When you see something start to devolve, say so (politely and respectfully) either directly to the person(s) contributing to the problem or to a moderator.  Don't let things get to the point of no return.


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## rjwolfe3 (Sep 27, 2010)

The problem I think is that different people are going to see offensive posts differently. What I think is offensive might be different then what other people find offensive and vise versa. Some people might post and in their minds what they are posting is perfectly normal but others might get offended by it. I even think our three moderators may not agree on which posts are offensive. 

I do think it best if everyone would just try to moderate themselves so that the moderators would not have too much work to do.


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## alphageek (Sep 27, 2010)

Nice post... I think thinking twice before posting things is a perfect first step.... Also - I know that Curtis has said he is open to suggestions.... 

My current suggestion for those seeing this - use the report post button!   Worst case scenario is that Curtis, Andrew and I end up discussing things.   I know we tend to read alot on here, but can't see all... Curtis has some backup now... Lets use it if necessary.

I don't want us to over-moderate, but I want to keep this as the best group on the net (something that I think we are, but we have gotten a bit rough on the edges of late).


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## capcrnch (Sep 27, 2010)

Nice post and thoughts.

I gotta say though, after reading the thread, I thought of one thing when I was all done reading..

Isn't this the 10th thread i've read this topic this since the beginning of summer?

Granted, i'm still "new" on IAP. I lurked for a bit before joining, then joined and started posting in January.. I'm no expert and I obviously don't know what IAP life was like 2 years ago or 5 years ago.

I can't help think that i've read posts where people have said "i'm leaving because I dont like such and such attacks" or "Everyone needs to be nicer and etc etc etc"..

Curtis, because you asked the question.. I don't have a fix. Maybe it's time to pull out the ban stick when people start getting high on their horse and start disrespecting Jeff's house? (I'm talking a couple of days - week off).. 
Maybe it's time for the members to start putting personal feelings aside and to start calling out those that do the personal attacks?

Honestly, I don't know.
I just wanted to make the comment that I keep seeing these types of threads, and while they're good and a morale booster for the "family hug", how long does it last before it starts again and the next thread is made?


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## capcrnch (Sep 27, 2010)

^ That really came out like i'm a jerk with a "better than thou" attitude..
I really didn't mean it like that and hope no one takes it that way.


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## glycerine (Sep 27, 2010)

rjwolfe3 said:


> The problem I think is that different people are going to see offensive posts differently. What I think is offensive might be different then what other people find offensive and vise versa. Some people might post and in their minds what they are posting is perfectly normal but others might get offended by it. I even think our three moderators may not agree on which posts are offensive.
> 
> I do think it best if everyone would just try to moderate themselves so that the moderators would not have too much work to do.


 
This is true and does make it tough.  HOWEVER, if Jeff and you guys who are moderators see fit to change the rules or start booting people, then I think everyone will soon learn what is seen as offensive to the moderators and that's what counts.  it's ok to voice your opinion to the "ump", but get in his face and start spitting and you'll get thrown out of the game.  It will ALWAYS be a moderators call in those situations.  When the human language and personalities are involved, there can never really be a clear set of rules... if that makes sense.  If the speed limit is 55 and you're going 58, then you're speeding.  That's a proven fact backed up by a radar detector.  In the case of the IAP, we just have to leave it up to our moderators.


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## Snorton20 (Sep 27, 2010)

+1  Well said and agree.


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## Seer (Sep 27, 2010)

Great Advice Roy I believe in it as well.
Jerry


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## witz1976 (Sep 27, 2010)

Jeff's house, Jeff's rules.  If you are disrespectful and Jeff or the Mods (who carry out Jeff's rules) call you on it, either shape up or ship out.  Plain and simple.  

Truthfully I really dislike people in general because, as a whole, people are becoming more and more disrespectful.  When I joined this group my views were changing and now they are well there are days when I feel justified for living on a dead end road in the middle of no where.

I try very hard to remind myself that I should not say what I want, that this is someone's house and people's feelings could get hurt.  Most importantly I respect the people who are here before me and people who join after.  This has been an invaluable resource and it really sucks to see the people who I can learn from leave because of jerks who can't keep their mouth shut when it needs to.  

My sincere apologies for sounding off like this.


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## witz1976 (Sep 27, 2010)

By the way Stephen, Cav, Anthony, Doc, and the others who left, I surely hope to see you all back on here again sometime.  I miss your posts and your advice!


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## papaturner (Sep 27, 2010)

witz1976 said:


> By the way Stephen, Cav, Anthony, Doc, and the others who left, I surely hope to see you all back on here again sometime.  I miss your posts and your advice!



I`d like to second that. 
Thanks Roy and I agree.


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## achennau (Sep 27, 2010)

I agree. I've only been a member a month, but i love the wealth of information on here. Thanks to all of you.
Andy
Texas


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## aggromere (Sep 27, 2010)

I love all the help I get from the forums and miss the people that no longer post. I was absent for about a year and only recently began posting again in July of this year. I did notice some of (to me) pen making icons were no longer posting. I also noticed there were a lot of new people doing incredible things. I guess communities change over time as some leave and some join. 

I for one will continue to offer help when I can, ask for help when I need it, look at the wonder things members make and show off some of mine. 

I wouldn't mind seeing the forums 'tightened' up a little, but I'm not sure exactly what I mean or how that would be done.

I have never donated to the IAP, but as soon as I finish this post I will. I never really thought about it before now, but I guess there is server fees to pay and such. 

I know that most of us make pens as a hobby, but some of us do it to earn a little extra income or cover the cost of supplies. Some even have full blown businesses making and selling pens. Which ever category you are in, these forums improve your chances of success.

I just donated $60.00 and I feel better already!

Thanks for starting this thread and all the positive sentiment displayed in the replies. I love this place!


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## Padre (Sep 27, 2010)

MesquiteMan said:


> OK, how do we fix things?  Do we just let people try to watch their own tone and temper their own messages?  Or do we step up moderation on these types of issues?  I am all ears for suggestions, especially since I now have 2 new moderators for help.



I think that self-moderation is a nice ideal, but it rarely works.  It is all too easy to flame another person.  However, we also need to differentiate between being rude, boorish and/or unacceptable and somtimes telling the blunt truth, which often times gets people peeved.

That being said, I think a system of:

1. Warning, and if it happens again, followed by 
2. minimum x day suspension and if it happens again, followed by 
3. Permanent revocation

I also think if someone is warned and/or suspended, and commits no more transgressions for a minimum of 1 year, then they go back to 'virgin' status.  

That gives someone 3 tries at getting it right.

Just some thoughts.


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## Padre (Sep 27, 2010)

You could also have a 'board of appeals' for someone who feels they are unjustly revoked.  Three people who are not moderators but who are members in good standing of IAP who could 'review' the suspension/revocation.  The suspensions are at the sole discretion of the moderators.


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## hunter-27 (Sep 27, 2010)

My 5 year old has a stoplight in his classroom at school.
1st offense Green Light(warning)
2nd offense Yellow Light(minor discipline-shortened recess)
3rd offense Red Light(loss of play time-stays in while others go out)
Next offense = Detention

If we are going to act as children maybe this would work.

I've been on the "I'm out of here" train.  Fortunately I found a return ticket and a better sense of what is important on the train car.


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## Pete275 (Sep 27, 2010)

Thank you Roy for this post. Had to log in for this one, as someone who is fairly new to this forum I can't find words to express how important it is to those of us who love making pens. I spent many months lurking and learned alot from some of the names mentioned. I do hope they all come back as I think each member of this forum is an asset to us all. We all have something to contribute but I think it should be done with courtesy and civility. My guess is we would all really miss this forum if it were gone. Thanks to all for sharing your knowledge with the rest of us. Lets work hard to get those members who have pulled back re-engaged.


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## workinforwood (Sep 28, 2010)

I agree that people get into a dogpile attack mode pretty quickly.  Someone doesn't like what someone else says and it's fightin time.  Let us also think about the fact that when a post is made, it is made in written form, not verbal form.  Being written, means that it does not have the emotions that come from voice, and it is also likely to be shorter and possibly a bit less thought out.  A person can often read more into a post than what is either there, or intended to be there.  Many times, all parties involved in a post are guilty of bad judgment.


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## snyiper (Sep 28, 2010)

Although a new person myself I think our Mods do an exceptional job already and I do not want to increase their work load for a few bad apples. I think the true answer is self moderation not only ones self but we need to remind others that something may have been said in the wrong way. I have seen post that makes me irritated and I just choose to ignore or bypass that thread. I am sorry for all those talented people who left but them to have the ability to ignore a thread or poster or comment. I don’t believe anyone that’s a member that wants to be a part of this family can be driven away by a faceless intruder. I think things here go in cycles as do people and in time those who want to be here will, the others will leave after a while regardless..


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## OLDMAN5050 (Sep 28, 2010)

I myself have met some good friends on this forum and without this forum I would not be where I am at today with my hobby of turning pens. the wealth of knowledge here is not readly avable anywhere else. That being said we should not allow post that will turn these great pen makers away. We need them. I personaly think that the moderators should kill a thread that is in bad taste. PM some one who offends and let it be the end of it. This forum was created to help those that need information and suggestions. we need to continue to share ideas,   just my own 2 cents worth...................................


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## seawolf (Sep 28, 2010)

Thanks Roy. I have learned many things here and have had the privilege of seeing some of the work of master pen artists in person. I hope the lost masters will come back as I and many others have much to learn. If the masters are reading this I hope to see you posting again soon.
Mark


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## Padre (Sep 28, 2010)

seawolf said:


> Thanks Roy. I have learned many things here and have had the privilege of seeing some of the work of master pen artists in person. I hope the lost masters will come back as I and many others have much to learn. If the masters are reading this I hope to see you posting again soon.
> Mark



Well said.


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## JeremyJ (Sep 28, 2010)

Great post Roy, Like many people have said, it only seems to be a few that spoil it for everyone else.   I am a very get to the point kind of person, these are the rules and its black and white no gray.  I think the mod should PM the individual and let them know what they did if they don't get the point don't let them post.  If you honestly look at who post's a true contribution its only a hand full of members you see religiously.  No offense to any one but those are the people that I want to learn from.  This is a great place to learn and has a bunch of great people just a few bad seeds.

Thanks to all


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## PenMan1 (Sep 28, 2010)

I'll go ahead and apologize now. My transmission that engages my brain before unleashing my keyboard finger is frequently broken!

If I do offend, it is purely unintentional. I think the IAP is one of the best things the Internet has to offer. Additionally, I respect EVERY member here and each opinion here, especially those opinions that differ from mine. 

By looking at things from another's point of view frequently allows me to find new and different solutions to problems.

I have also found that the IAP members that I have met personally and interact with regularly are some of the best and most caring people I have ever met.

Those of you who have never put your foot into your mouth can cast the first shoe


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## Hubert H (Sep 28, 2010)

*Agreed*

I'm new to IAP and have learned a lot.  I have seen some things which made me wonder.  I hope people will heed your suggestion.  Looking forward to many more learning experiences.


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## MesquiteMan (Sep 28, 2010)

I think self moderation is fine as long as it is just that...SELF MODERATION, ie, moderate your OWN posts.  When folks start trying to play moderator in a thread, it ofter makes things worse.  We are all adults here (well most of us!) and none of us really want to be told what to do by our peers.

It would really be best to just hit the yellow triangle and report a post when you think it has crossed the line.  I now have a team of moderators so the reaction time should be much quicker.  It may be more peaceful to just let the moderators do their jobs.


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## moke (Sep 28, 2010)

Curtis and Jeff, I think that you do a great job. You have a very difficult position. I have worked in the evenings now for 31 years in Law Enforcement. When I first started we had a rather liberal boss. Whenever you had to "lay hands" on an individual you had a 50-50 chance of going to an Anger Management class. Let's just say, I spent my fair share of time in class. In retrospect, I do think that I did walk away with a better understanding of human nature, and that understanding is that you are not going to be able to control peoples emotions or in this case posts.

I hate to say it, but there are people that post annoying and snide comments, and my guess is they do not realize it, don't care, or feel bad after it has been posted but will continue to do it anyway, it is their nature. Then you have the people that were pushed, snubbed, or ignored, that complain about that and post a retaliation. Bottom line is, if we could control people, their moods, and their snide comments for whatever excuse, I would be out of a job. (At 53 I am ok with that too....) We are going to continue to have these types of individuals and we are going to continue to have the few whose feelings are hurt and go away, there is simply no answer for that. While I am sorry that some of the great pen makers are upset at the direction the site has gone, IMHO they fail to see the big picture of humanity as a whole.

Curtis, I have read many of these posts and never intended to post in any of them, I am here to learn and further my pen making abilities not to participate in complaint posts. I participate in complaint issues every night. So, I have broken my own rule, but I want you to know you are doing a fine job with a difficult situation. You are an intelligent individual and you do things from a common sense point of view. Please just continue to do things as you do them now. IMHO this is what it takes.

Please do not take this as a post from an all-knowing postion, just my opinion. For me, I just intend to avoid comment to things that annoy me.
Moke


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## Texatdurango (Sep 28, 2010)

Moke,
Please do not take this post as an argument with you, because it is not meant to be.  I just found that your post mentioned a few things together that I felt like responding to.



moke said:


> ...... We are going to continue to have these types of individuals and we are going to continue to have the few whose feelings are hurt and go away, *there is simply no answer for that.*
> 
> Well, actually there is but it will take some forum policy changes, perhaps injecting some morals and ethics clauses then taking a "not so forgiving" stance with policy violators.  I believe most of the flair ups continue simply because those stirring the pot realize they can get away with it so why not have some fun, and sadly it appears that some do this just for kicks!  Having the guilty parties apologize after the fact, time after time, does nothing to remedy the problem.
> 
> ...


 
Just my opinion based on my observations over the past three + years, no attacks, no flames, no name calling implied or intended.


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## bruce119 (Sep 28, 2010)

MesquiteMan said:


> I think self moderation is fine as long as it is just that...SELF MODERATION, ie, moderate your OWN posts. When folks start trying to play moderator in a thread, it ofter makes things worse. We are all adults here (well most of us!) and none of us really want to be told what to do by our peers.
> 
> *It would really be best to just hit the yellow triangle and report a post when you think it has crossed the line.* I now have a team of moderators so the reaction time should be much quicker. It may be more peaceful to just let the moderators do their jobs.


 
The Yellow triangle is a great tool. Education is key. Until just recently I didn't notice the yellow triangle in the lower left side of each post let as long what it was for. I know it's in the notes and rules somewhere. But heck I have to admit I am guilty of not reading instructions.

Some how we need to get the word out about that little yellow triangle in the lower left hand side of each post.


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## Tom D (Sep 28, 2010)

Roy your soap box has served you well. I agree 110% I have only been on IAP for a year and have gotten so many great hints and good direction and hope I have given a few. This is a great site, lets keep it that way.


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## GoodTurns (Sep 28, 2010)

MesquiteMan said:


> .....  We are all adults here (well most of us!).....



and generally, the ones who are not "adults" act more like it than the rest of us!  Something to think about.....


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## MesquiteMan (Sep 28, 2010)

bruce119 said:


> MesquiteMan said:
> 
> 
> > I think self moderation is fine as long as it is just that...SELF MODERATION, ie, moderate your OWN posts. When folks start trying to play moderator in a thread, it ofter makes things worse. We are all adults here (well most of us!) and none of us really want to be told what to do by our peers.
> ...



Bruce,

I have posted at least 2 different threads explaining the yellow triangle and how to use it.  One of the threads even had a picture with arrows and everything!  I have also mentioned it in NUMEROUS posts I have made in bad threads!


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## Displaced Canadian (Sep 28, 2010)

We seem to have this conversation a lot lately. I agree it is time to come up with a solution. Doesn't the Australian wood forum have a system for "reputation points" I wonder how it works for them. Would the threat of being banned for a time or permanently be enough to get someone to calm down?


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## DurocShark (Sep 28, 2010)

Displaced Canadian said:


> We seem to have this conversation a lot lately. I agree it is time to come up with a solution. Doesn't the Australian wood forum have a system for "reputation points" I wonder how it works for them. Would the threat of being banned for a time or permanently be enough to get someone to calm down?



Having been involved in some large forums, the threat of a mod wielding the ban stick doesn't do much. Unfortunately.


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## MrPukaShell (Sep 28, 2010)

You all say 3-5 years ago no one bickered and got along just great.  As more people become involved you get more opinions, and you know what they say about opinions, everyones got one.  I believe most start with someone who is uneducated about the subject chimes in, someone's feelings get hurt and the mud slinging begins.  I like the post in general but my question would be how many members are on the site now compared to a couple of years ago?

I say everyone should thicken up their skin, take a Happy Pill and not take everything so seriously.  

Agreed there should be no mud slinging, name calling and so on, but have you taken a good hard look at the world out there?


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## Phunky_2003 (Sep 28, 2010)

Texatdurango said:


> Not being one of the great pen makers I wouldn't know about a big picture BUT, I'm fed up with logging in now and then on a _SLOW_ connection to see what some of my friends are up to and to see their latest creations, only to see all the nasty arguments, mud slinging, _free legal_ _recommendations,_ right fighting and accusations flying all over..... almost daily (or at least every time I log in).
> 
> If this "new direction" is part of the *big picture* for the forum, count me out and I can well understand why others feel the same way. There was a day when none of this nonsense existed on the forum, just pen making, so it *CAN* be fixed!


 
I usually try not to post on any of these types of threads.  This one seems to still be going in a positive direction.  I have wondered about the absense of some members.  Cav and Skiprat among others.  Figured they were busy with other things.  I try to stay outta the way for the most part.  Since joining I have noticed your posting has slowed a bit too.  Figured that had to do with your move.  I still consider myself a new penturner working on better results with each pen.

As far as you not being one of the great pen turners, thats a bunch of hooey!  I've seen your work and you do outstanding work that in itself makes you one of the greats.  But the help and knowledge you've been willing to share to myself and I am sure others is greatly appreciated.  Our chapter lost a great asset when you moved.  

As far as the bickering going on.  I dont have any easy answers, but I would agree something needs to be done.


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## Texatdurango (Sep 28, 2010)

MrPukaShell said:


> You all say 3-5 years ago no one bickered and got along just great. As more people become involved you get more opinions, and you know what they say about opinions, everyones got one. I believe most start with someone who is uneducated about the subject chimes in, someone's feelings get hurt and the mud slinging begins. I like the post in general but my question would be how many members are on the site now compared to a couple of years ago?
> 
> I say everyone should thicken up their skin, take a Happy Pill and not take everything so seriously.
> 
> Agreed there should be no mud slinging, name calling and so on, but have you taken a good hard look at the world out there?


 
Good thoughts Robert but I don't think "everyone should thicken up their skin" since everyone isn't involved in the problematic threads, it's usually the same people over and over.

I'm the one who compared the present to the "good ole days" and while I didn't mean to imply that all was peaches and cream a few years ago, the flair ups were generally minor in nature and nothing like the slug fests that go on today that usually wind up being deleted.

As I read your post I got to wondering why there was so much arguing these days and a thought occured as I was trying to find a common denominator and a thought occured.

Several years ago there were only a couple members selling things on the forum.  Today the number of member vendors has increased dramatically, with some only here to sell their goods and many of the thread wars seem to stem from who did what first or who "stole" who"s idea.

And I think there is a bit of bad blood between some folks without anything needed to set them off other than an apponent making a post.

While we're all trying to fix the forum, perhaps having a look at why some folks are here then having a look at how they participate might reveal some problems that could be fixed.

Just thinking........! :wink:


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## Phunky_2003 (Sep 28, 2010)

MrPukaShell said:


> You all say 3-5 years ago no one bickered and got along just great. As more people become involved you get more opinions, and you know what they say about opinions, everyones got one. I believe most start with someone who is uneducated about the subject chimes in, someone's feelings get hurt and the mud slinging begins. I like the post in general but my question would be how many members are on the site now compared to a couple of years ago?
> 
> I say everyone should thicken up their skin, take a Happy Pill and not take everything so seriously.
> 
> Agreed there should be no mud slinging, name calling and so on, but have you taken a good hard look at the world out there?


 
I've been a member for a little over a year.  As far as I can remember it wasn't like this at that time.  Seems like the constant arguing over little things all have been going on for the last 6 months.  Seems to have gotten worse since the last birthday bash.


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## MesquiteMan (Sep 28, 2010)

vBulletin does have the reputation points system but that is pretty much worthless except for a feel good thing.  Rep points are give by members to other members but really does nothing except help some folks win a popularity contest.

There is another feature of vBulletin that may be time to implement...the infraction system.  This is where certain conduct items are assigned points.  Once a certain level of points is reached, you are automatically banned for a time period.  Right now, there are no consequences for bad behavior.  You get a post deleted for violating the TOS?  So what.  Post another and get it deleted again, big deal.  We seldom ban anyone and some guys are repeat "offenders".  Using the points system would make each of us responsible for our own actions and our own bannings, should they occur.


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## Snorton20 (Sep 29, 2010)

MesquiteMan said:


> There is another feature of vBulletin that may be time to implement...the infraction system.  This is where certain conduct items are assigned points.  Once a certain level of points is reached, you are automatically banned for a time period.  Right now, there are no consequences for bad behavior.  You get a post deleted for violating the TOS?  So what.  Post another and get it deleted again, big deal.  We seldom ban anyone and some guys are repeat "offenders".  Using the points system would make each of us responsible for our own actions and our own bannings, should they occur.


Man, What a sad world to some extent that this must happen. I don't understand why people feel the need to put others on the chopping block.  I don't think people need "thicker skin" I just think people need to grow up.  I can't believe that adults need to be treated like children on the school grounds and get time outs.  I am not saying that this is a bad way of controlling this matter since people can't seem to get along, just don't understand why attitudes can't be checked at the door. Treat each other the way you would want to be treated is how I have started looking at things years ago.  Believe me it works. JMHO.


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## DCBluesman (Sep 29, 2010)

> I say everyone should thicken up their skin, take a Happy Pill and not take everything so seriously.
> 
> I don't see thick skin or happy pills as being a remedy for rudeness, but I might be persuaded.
> 
> ...




_



Some men see things as they are and say why - I dream things that never were and say why not. - G. B. Shaw
		
Click to expand...

___ 
_Of course, others may be of a different mind._


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## JimMc7 (Sep 29, 2010)

One of my favorite quotes is from Bertrand Russell:

The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts. 

All of us are fools and fanatics about _some _issue but this is a pen making forum. Unless someone's health or safety is at risk, I can't think of any reason to forcefully refute another's assertion about pen crafting/sales. 

Be tolerant of others' views even when they are obviously wrong!


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## glycerine (Sep 29, 2010)

JimMc7 said:


> One of my favorite quotes is from Bertrand Russell:
> 
> The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.
> 
> ...


 
That reminds me of a song I know.

One line says:
"Yeah, there's a problem with the world
And the problem with the world is me"

Another says:
"So I will look no further than a mirror
That's where the offender hides"


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## nava1uni (Sep 30, 2010)

This thread is a repeat of several over the last year.  I agree with Roy in his original posting.  I have thought a lot about this issue.  I often don't comment in some threads because they are so full of animosity and rudeness.  I think that responding, often only gives the offender more fodder and heats up the fire.  
I think that it can be disheartening to think that adults must be monitored and banned because they have forgotten their manners and can't play well with others.  I know, as Roy stated, that some have left because they don't want to deal or put up with the behavior.  When such events occur it decreases the pool of knowledge and we all have end up losing.


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## snyiper (Sep 30, 2010)

Cindy that was put very well but the question we all ask is what can we do? I joined a little over a year ago and it seemed like just a laid back forum for pen discussions. There was a play room for us just starting to ask all our redundant questions and answered by those who could tolerate the constant Barrage. There was also a advanced room where the BIG GUNs discussed the finer points us new turners have never even heard or thought of yet. This seems like it has all blended into one big room and getting louder all the time. Just what is the long term answer or is there one?


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## ROOKIETURNER (Sep 30, 2010)

I have been one to let it get out of control. I have felt offended and have offended a few on here myself. Sorry Curtis! But it all comes down to everyone getting off of there high horse, stop pointing fingers and lighten up a bit (present company included).

My web browser has this page set as one of my Home Pages. I see a good amount of the posts and I would say that 99.9% of them are not negative. However I once heard that it takes 10 compliments to overcome a criticism. For the most part this site is Lilly white, any blemish or black spot screams out at us. We all need to use the common sense God gave us, swallow our pride, bite our tongues, and move on.

That and $5.50 will buy you a Latte at Starbucks.

Rob


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## Smitty37 (Sep 30, 2010)

*Don't Read*

I'm still at a loss as to why on earth anyone would follow a thread that they think is not relavent or they think has gotten out of hand....Or why people will make comments in a thread simply to say they think it isn't a worth while discussion.   For goodness sakes, if you don't like a thread don't follow it.  Others must like it or it will just die of it's own accord.

Some of us get something out of threads that others don't...that is just to be expected.  

It seems pretty easy to me to look through the forums that are of interest, pick out the threads that seem to be of interest to me and go check the first couple of posts.  If they are interesting I follow if they aren't I don't.


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## kinggabby (Sep 30, 2010)

I will be the first to admit I am an idiot. I too have either overacted to something said or done. It so easy to say I am right and you are wrong . But something I need to work on is shut my mouth and keep my fingers off the keyboard. I know I have chimed in on previous post and I should not have. If I have offended anyone please I ask for your forgiveness. I also ask that if I offend you please send me a note . I don't wish for anyone to have hard feelings towards me and I don't want to have ill feelings towards anyone.


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## Jgrden (Sep 30, 2010)

Okay, Roy, I will watch what I say from now on. Thanks for the heads up.


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## Jgrden (Sep 30, 2010)

Yes, think twice before you punch the key. Here is what happened to me last week. A friend that brings me antler, ivory and other stuff for pens dropped by on Wednesday and told me about a Laser engraver in Willis, just five miles away from where my shop is located. Well Thursday I took a antler blank to him to have it engraved. He charged $5.00 for the name and said he would call me when it was ready, which most likely be no later than Saturday. Well I waited and on Tuesday my friend stopped by to pick up completed pens at which time I announced my displeasure at the man not having called me with my completed pen blank. So yesterday I called him and he said the blank was ready the day after I had left it with him and he had tried to call me but got a disconnect. I went to pick up the blank and asked for the card with the phone number on it. Sure 'nuff, I had given him an old card with a bad number.
It wasn't his fault. The error was all mine. I had to beat it back home and call my friend to tell him I was in error. He was the only one that I had besmirched the good mans name. My friend took it very well and all is right with the world. 
But the lesson was there and very clear.  Think twice, speak once.


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