# Venus Roller-ball in Toni Ransfield's Polymer Clay blank



## edstreet (Aug 1, 2012)

I have a project here I have been working on this week.  I had/have some reservations about posting the photo's due to various copy cat's I have seen on this forum, and I have to add that I am NOT impressed, no credit is given to the original inventor/designer/creator in many topics that I have seen.  This needs to change.

If you are here to copy/imitate/duplicate/etc work then you will find this is COPYRIGHTED so move on to another thread.  If you are here to see Artwork in all it's fine glory then you are at the right thread.

Now lets get down to business.  

Here we have a fantastic work of art and it needs to be seen.  The quality of, well everything, that went into this blank is incredible.
This is a Venus roller-ball in black titanium trim sold by wood turners catalog (craft supply USA).





















































In various photo's you may have noted that one background in particular has a distinct noted color shift between photo's.  This is due to lighting angle and type of paper it is, most important is the coating and color.  This is hand made paper and even it to will produce glare and produce the prism effect.

The other aspect is the Black Titanium.  I have been observing some very interesting frequency shifts with this plating.

Ed


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## beck3906 (Aug 1, 2012)

The pen looks really nice.  Toni does outstanding work and your efforts brought Toni's work to life.

However, I'm not sure what you mean by the lead-in to the pictures.  Are you saying this is copyrighted work and no one should copy it?


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## witz1976 (Aug 1, 2012)

Nice pen indeed, however I too was wondering what exactly is copyrighted?  You took a blank you did not make and matched it with a commonly purchased set of components. Unless you have a specific way of finishing the blank I am not sure how you can say "I purchased these items...don't copy me".


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## edstreet (Aug 1, 2012)

The photo's and the blank is protected under copyright laws.


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## beck3906 (Aug 1, 2012)

First, you should add a watermark indicating the photos are copyrighted.  Secondly, how can you copy right Toni's work?  Most professional photographers copyright their work they do for you meaning they hold the licensing for it.  Wouldn't Toni be the copyright holder?


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## edstreet (Aug 1, 2012)

Toni has the copyright to the blanks, not me.


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## Whaler (Aug 1, 2012)

Ed, there is no copyright law that stops me from making the same pen if a duplicate blank is available. Both the pen kit and blank are being sold to make pens.
Funny that the copyright applies only here at IAP and not on Facebook http://www.facebook.com/groups/220613315117/


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## Ruby pen turning (Aug 1, 2012)

We would all like credit given to what we have made and others have used but they do not have to give credit to anyone.They bought the blank with there money. They could even say they made the blank if they wanted to.
Now you are saying because you made this Venus pen with this beautiful blank of Toni`s, that Ed sells in his store, that I or anyone else who would want to fork out that much money on pen parts, that they cannot make it because you already did?
I hope that is not what your saying, because that would be funny.


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## edstreet (Aug 1, 2012)

The pen itself does not have a copyright, the BLANK does.  If you can get a blank then that is good.  If you are trying to COPY the blank then that is a no-no.  The copycats I have noted were on this forum and not on the facebook group.  Does this make sense?


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## Andrew_K99 (Aug 1, 2012)

The pen blank and kit are the 'original work' of someone else so you can't claim copyright on them. You are free to claim copyright on the photography only.

Furthermore this is a snip from the IAP terms of service.

*Submitted Content:* Any and all content posted or displayed for inclusion in publicly accessible areas of Penturners.org are the responsibility of the creator. Penturners.org makes no claims or warranties about such information or its authenticity. When you post messages and upload photos, you grant Penturners.org the perpetual, irrevocable, non-exclusive, world-wide, royalty free license to publish, modify and use such content solely for the purpose of displaying such content.

The red highlighted portion might be of interest to you.

AK


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## Andrew_K99 (Aug 1, 2012)

edstreet said:


> The pen itself does not have a copyright, the BLANK does.


Where is this stated?  I couldn't find anything on Toni's site or any site that sells her work that states any mention of copyright.

AK


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## edstreet (Aug 1, 2012)

Ruby pen turning said:


> We would all like credit given to what we have made and others have used but they do not have to give credit to anyone.They bought the blank with there money. They could even say they made the blank if they wanted to.
> Now you are saying because you made this Venus pen with this beautiful blank of Toni`s, that Ed sells in his store, that I or anyone else who would want to fork out that much money on pen parts, that they cannot make it because you already did?
> I hope that is not what your saying, because that would be funny.




Funny, if you actually READ what I said the BLANK and my PHOTO, *NOT* the pen.  The pen itself has it's own copyright/patent/trademark from the manufacture.


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## azamiryou (Aug 1, 2012)

I think it's pretty safe to say that anyone with the polymer clay skills to duplicate a Toni blank - wouldn't. They'd be too busy making their own amazing blanks.


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## edstreet (Aug 1, 2012)

Andrew_K99 said:


> edstreet said:
> 
> 
> > The pen itself does not have a copyright, the BLANK does.
> ...



Copyright laws, go read them please.


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## edstreet (Aug 1, 2012)

Ruby pen turning said:


> We would all like credit given to what we have made and others have used but they do not have to give credit to anyone.They bought the blank with there money. They could even say they made the blank if they wanted to.
> Now you are saying because you made this Venus pen with this beautiful blank of Toni`s, that Ed sells in his store, that I or anyone else who would want to fork out that much money on pen parts, that they cannot make it because you already did?
> I hope that is not what your saying, because that would be funny.



OH I also missed a point here.  I never said nor do I intend 'to sell in my store' like some people I have made reference to. My original post has been and is to share ART QUALITY.


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## edstreet (Aug 1, 2012)

Andrew_K99 said:


> The pen blank and kit are the 'original work' of someone else so you can't claim copyright on them. You are free to claim copyright on the photography only.
> 
> Furthermore this is a snip from the IAP terms of service.
> 
> ...



Indeed that pertains to the PHOTO. Since it is *MY* photo I did agree to that.



> § 107 . Limitations on exclusive rights: Fair use40
> 
> Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include—
> 
> ...


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## dexter0606 (Aug 1, 2012)

Toni does do extraordinary work with PC but I find it hard to believe that she has a copyright on the art of making rose canes


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## seamus7227 (Aug 1, 2012)

Im just really trying to understand the point in this thread and where the "copyright" issue originated. Post a picture of your pen and be done with it. The pen looks fabulous! Your photos look great, but personally the paper is a bit distracting, just my opinion though, not that it matters.


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## DestinTurnings (Aug 1, 2012)

Due to the nature of PC and the intricate designs on them, not even Toni could duplicate a blank with 100% accuracy. She automatically has a copyright on the individual designs. If I bought or made my own canes, and I emulated her style and design, unless it was 100% identical, it would be virtually impossible to enforce any copyright. Even if I scanned her copyrighted pen and were able to print onto some surface and make it into a pen, you would still be hardpressed to make a case because it would be manufactured differently on a different material. If you tried to use her name, then you would have a case.

You cannot copyright a pen because you used commercially available material, design, or pen kit.


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## SteveG (Aug 1, 2012)

Aside from all the back and forth on copyright, I do indeed enjoy the pen you have presented, and the evident photo skills. Nice job!
Steve


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## TerryDowning (Aug 1, 2012)

I wonder how many members here are patent/copyright attorneys?? It sure seems like a lot of them at times.

At any rate, A very nice Pen indeed.

Toni, Great Blank! Those PC blanks are amazing.

The Venus component set is not one of my personal favorites but is a good pairing for this very feminine blank.

Ed, nice job on purchasing, finishing, assembly and especially nice job on the photography.


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## MesquiteMan (Aug 1, 2012)

beck3906 said:


> First, you should add a watermark indicating the photos are copyrighted.  Secondly, how can you copy right Toni's work?  Most professional photographers copyright their work they do for you meaning they hold the licensing for it.  Wouldn't Toni be the copyright holder?



You do not need to watermark photos to have a copyright.  The copyright is there as soon as you click the shutter release whether you claim it or not.  The copyright notice is there to just warn people that you take your copyright seriously and to discourage folks from using your work.


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## KnB Polymers (Aug 1, 2012)

*My turn!*

Ok, as for all of this copyright mess, I don't give 2 figs for because everyone knows that's crazy. 
What does bother me is the "person on this forum copying Toni's blanks" ... which obviously refers to me as I think I am the only other person who does pc flowers on here.
For one thing, Toni's tubes are awesome and one-of-a-kind and I feel honored that you think I can "copy" her work ... if I was as good as she was I would be dancing on top of my barn!
Secondly, I couldn't copy her flowers if I tried ... every time I make a new cane, it's like opening a present after I reduce it ... I NEVER know what it's going to look like and 99 percent of the time it's totally different than what I intended! 
Thirdly (is that a word?) I like flowers, I like polymer clay, my husband makes pens ... doesn't it make sense to make pc tubes for his pens?
I'm not copying or trying to copy anyone ... I'm just doing something I love to do and if I can sell them, well doesn't everyone want to make money doing something they love?? 

By the way, your pen looks great and Toni's work looks fab as usual.


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## ALexG (Aug 1, 2012)

I believe this is going too far, I enjoy this forum a lot because I learn and I can get ideas from others as well which I can apply to my pens, but this thread meaning is like if someone post a pen using their own coffee bean casting and if I try to do the similar type of casting and post the picture I would infringe some law, I don't believe so .... ok the pen is great and the blank is awesome as usual


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## Katya (Aug 1, 2012)

I think the fuss over copyright is kind of sad.. and not really needed in this forum.  As for the pen, beautiful work as usual Toni and the F & F is good, but I don't think this combination is the best possible.  I've used the Venus components and quite like them, and I love Toni's work.  But pairing a busy kit with a complex blank is overkill.  Her blank shouldn't have to compete with the kit; they should blend into a harmonious whole. The Venus kit looks better with a visually simpler blank.  I've seen Toni's pens in Gent II or Statesman kits that allow her work to shine through and draw you into the blank.


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## dexter0606 (Aug 1, 2012)

KnB Polymers said:


> Ok, as for all of this copyright mess, I don't give 2 figs for because everyone knows that's crazy.
> What does bother me is the "person on this forum copying Toni's blanks" ... which obviously refers to me as I think I am the only other person who does pc flowers on here.
> For one thing, Toni's tubes are awesome and one-of-a-kind and I feel honored that you think I can "copy" her work ... if I was as good as she was I would be dancing on top of my barn!
> Secondly, I couldn't copy her flowers if I tried ... every time I make a new cane, it's like opening a present after I reduce it ... I NEVER know what it's going to look like and 99 percent of the time it's totally different than what I intended!
> ...


 
You don't have any issues as far as I'm concerned, for what that's worth :biggrin:.


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## OLDMAN5050 (Aug 1, 2012)

If each tube is hand made and there can't be any 2 the same so how would it be copied? Just my thoughts. Toni's work is true art.....


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## arioux (Aug 1, 2012)

Nice blank , nice kit, nice assembling and finishing job, nice photo.  For the rest there are time someone is better shut up.  It's this time for me.


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## PenPal (Aug 1, 2012)

Question,

How many Electricians to change a lightbulb.

Like your kit choice always love Tonis work.

Full marks for her.

A real lot of pics must mean a real lot of Electricians.

Kind regards Peter.


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## beck3906 (Aug 1, 2012)

I guess I started this at post #2.  Sorry.

My question was why the OP felt the blank should be copyrighted when Toni had made it.  Shoot....I may need to copyright some of my work.  I don't think a unique design would last long around here with the way folks copy ideas.   In fact, someone would be asking for a tutorial on how it's made.  I prefer to not show what I don't want others to copy.

As to his photos...
True, he can have a copyright if he makes the photos.  The problem is that he doesn't identify that idea to anyone who may be trolling around.  Getting a watermark or something on his photos at least helps identify his work and tells the world he has sole rights to the photos.  But again, why would you post here?

I don't know, it just struck me odd that right out of the box statements like this were made.  Seems to invite criticism.

I found another site recently where the polymer clay artist stated her designs were copyrighted.  It always amazes me that with the millions of people in the world pusuing a craft or art, someone feels they have a sole right to a design.  We could be violating trademark and copyright laws and not even know it.

I'll be quiet on this subject.  Sorry to have mentioned it to begin with.


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## Ruby pen turning (Aug 1, 2012)

What is wrong with copying an idea? Man has been coping since time began. Henry ford invented the assembly line look at all the copycats of that brilliant idea. Anyone who wants to copy one of my blanks, you are more then welcome to do so and someone will copy you and someone will copy them. If I were to wear a cone on my head and everyone started wearing them I would say they are as weird as me. Devo wore cones on there heads but I never saw people walking around in town wearing them. I have seen a lot of segmented pens in the 2 years or so that I have been on here. I copied someone and someone may have copied me. COPY AWAY!


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## beck3906 (Aug 1, 2012)

Ummm, sorry, but I never said that copying was a bad idea. What I was saying is that anyone who puts something on this forum runs the risk of having their ideas copied. 

Sharing information is one of the great things about this forum. The problem is that a great idea is soon copied by many. 

I make things to sell. I try to have unique things not done by most pen turners. I've had customers say they've looked through many pen booths and see the same old thing. They show excitement with me because I stretch the limits on what is shown.

I had a turner's wife approach me at my last show and ask where I got something I had on display. I didn't want to tell her as I knew they would be competition at a future show, or pass along the idea to someone else who would be.

Now, anyone who has a commercial aspect providing pen making supplies runs a risk of having their ideas copied. Look at Curtis with his Worthless Wood. Any number of folks now sell their version with more coming along. Each tries to place their spin on their product but its still a knock-off to some degree.

Copy anything you feel you can to make a buck. However, we've seen situations on this board where members rush to the aid of the originator offering support because the product was copied.

Now, back to the intent of post #1.

Nice pen, but I too believe the kit makes it somewhat busy. I have several of Toni's blanks, along with a few from another clay artist. I'm always amazed at the details someone can get squezzing clay together.


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## ed4copies (Aug 1, 2012)

beck3906 said:


> I guess I started this at post #2.  Sorry.
> 
> My question was why the OP felt the blank should be copyrighted when Toni had made it.  Shoot....I may need to copyright some of my work. * I don't think a unique design would last long around here with the way folks copy ideas*.   In fact, someone would be asking for a tutorial on how it's made.  I prefer to not show what I don't want others to copy.
> 
> ...



Rick has hit the nail on the head.  And it is a "transition" on the IAP over the years.  We started out admiring each other's innovations and respecting their privilege to market the idea as their own.  Copying was frowned upon---if you could not come up with your OWN design, then the community considered it "unethical" to take someone elses.

Members were encouraged to  master another member's technique, then IMPROVE and show HIS work.  So member A begets an idea, member B improves and challenges member A (or C through Z) to improve some more.  Competition was the lifeblood of NEW innovations.  

(Eagle was one of the leaders in innovation--but he knew he had to continue to do NEW things---otherwise he would be "passed up" and, as he put it "I'll be old news"!  So he competed not with other members, but with HIS last design.  From time to time someone would mimic a design--he would say to those of us who were his friends, "Shoot (not exactly), I already DID that---can't the fellow (or something) ADD something to it??)  

As the community got larger, more people "borrowed" ideas from others and there was less "stigma" attached to copying--so the "mores" of our little society had changed.

For those who had been the innovators, this meant they no longer posted their innovations, thus protecting those ideas from those who might "borrow" or "improve" or, call it what you want!

Some years ago the community noticed the innovation was disappearing.  Certain folks complained about that, as well.  But those who innovate had been "burned" as often as they wanted.  So, our "societal more" now tolerates, or even encourages copying and reduced pricing.  

But the real price is the lack of originality and innovation.  This is the real cost the IAP has paid.

It is up to each member to determine, in his mind, which is preferred---but we are unlikely to ever see innovation again.

It IS happening, but it is NOT being shown.  So, is the "competition" worth the cost?  That is up to each one of us.

"Copyright" means nothing unless you are willing to defend your rights.  I just read (in an internet marketing magazine) that the cost of defending a patent in court is now about $4 million.  So, discuss away, there is no one who can afford to "fight for his/her rights"  and our little community condones copying.  

So it is.  And, whether each member likes it or not, that is the way it is very likely to stay.


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## ed4copies (Aug 1, 2012)

BTW, I had not commented on this thread, because everyone knows I have a vested interest in Toni's blanks.  But, since I have now commented about the philosophy, I would also say, "Man, that is ONE BEAUTIFUL PEN!!!!"  Usually I suggest simple hardware for Toni's colorful blanks--but this coupling really hits the spot, for me.  I believe it is due to the slightly muted color of the darkened hardware.  Nice PEN!!!


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## dexter0606 (Aug 1, 2012)

ed4copies said:


> beck3906 said:
> 
> 
> > I guess I started this at post #2.  Sorry.
> ...



Ed, Toni did not "invent" the PC techniques. Check the web. There are books upon books available as well as umpteen YouTube videos available to show the technquies. She does however do a great job at what she does. 
While I do agree that there are instances where ideas are reused I believe that this is not one of them. 
There is no copying. Toni does a superb job and has set the bar (note Olympic reference) very high. Let people try to match her techniques without shooting them down. It helps us all


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## ed4copies (Aug 1, 2012)

Jeff (Bell),
I try very hard NOT to judge.  I am only relaying what has happened on IAP.  I am a witness to the history and I try to relate it without taking a "side".

Again, when I used to talk with Eagle frequently, we debated about "his new idea".  I have always said there are NO new ideas, under the sun--every combination of stuff has been put into pens or watches or desk ornaments.  Bringing it to the pen world is usually repetitive.

An interesting example of this was the Washington DC pen show.  Dawn made several "unique" designs--paua shell, mother of pearl strips and others.  None of these had ever been shown on IAP and we did not show them, so we could have a "unique" product at the very prestigious DC "Supershow" for pens.    

We got to DC and walked the room.  For those who don't know, DC is predominantly a vintage fountain pen show.  OLD is IN.   And, so was Mother of pearl strips.  Seems they were very fashionable a mere 70-80 years ago.

So, no, I don't believe anything is "new".  "New to IAP" used to be the standard under which innovation was shown.  Since that standard has changed, the innovative pens have stopped being shown.  That is not reflecting any personal opinion--just reporting the facts.


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## edstreet (Aug 1, 2012)

I honestly had no idea how this thread would turn out.  On my first posting I was torn if I should indeed make the post.  The original images I am working with is 54 inches by 36 inches (138cm x 92cm) and what you see in my first post is seriously reduced and much detail lost.

Some of the directions I thought this might go:

*) Ed, why is there a GREEN tint in some of the metal shots?  Why do we see your CAMERA, why do we see prismatic color ranges where we should be seeing black titanium.

*) Why is it the Blue butterfly's appear to be floating/flying when you used the blue background?  Why is it those little orange flowers are brought up when you used the orange background?

*)  Your pictures suck, why can't you do things like this?





*) Ed! WTF man, where is those 9,0001 coats of CA!  

*) Ed, STFU about copyrights! IAP endorses and encourage original work but learning from the masters is OK as long as we evolve and create something that is truly unique and defines our own style.

*) Ed, seriously dude, where is the lathe photo's at?






Now the other question is with detail, well that question should be ask later in another post.





I would also like to go on record to say thanks to everyone who posted remarks, both good and bad, about the work done. I do encourage feedback on all aspects and believe it or not this is how we learn.

Ed


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## CSue (Aug 2, 2012)

May I "tiptoe in" here?  

I just want to say that this is probably *the most fitting match* of pen kit to one of Toni's blanks that I've seen here!  For me, that truly makes this pen, as a whole pen, a great work of art!  

And your photography is very good.  The color of the background is usually changed to enhance a certain aspect of the item being photographed.  Blue background "picks out" the butterflies; Orange brings out the orange flowers.  The eye naturally "flows" to the point on the object that most closely resembles the background.  Light backgrounds brighten the object, dark backgrounds subdue colors.  I thought you purposefully used all those different backgrounds to highlight different aspects of the pen.  And my response to that is . . . Very Good!


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## edstreet (Aug 2, 2012)

CSue said:


> May I "tiptoe in" here?
> 
> I just want to say that this is probably *the most fitting match* of pen kit to one of Toni's blanks that I've seen here!  For me, that truly makes this pen, as a whole pen, a great work of art!
> 
> And your photography is very good.  The color of the background is usually changed to enhance a certain aspect of the item being photographed.  Blue background "picks out" the butterflies; Orange brings out the orange flowers.  The eye naturally "flows" to the point on the object that most closely resembles the background.  Light backgrounds brighten the object, dark backgrounds subdue colors.  I thought you purposefully used all those different backgrounds to highlight different aspects of the pen.  And my response to that is . . . Very Good!



Indeed I did exactly that, good observation there.

The 'drawing' photo above is a rendered in photoshop of a photo.  It looks like a drawing but it's not.  Sketching has/is becoming a lost art form in and of itself which makes this a tragedy in motion.


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