# Good first rifle



## Haynie (Jan 23, 2012)

This one is for the well armed out there.  (I know there are several of you on this board)

My son is old enough this year (9) to take the almost obligatory, in this town, hunter safety course.  So I signed him up and realized that I don't own a rifle I want to shoot.  I have an older 22 LR for him and my wife's grand father's rifles he brought back from WWII.  Then I also realized that I know pistols really well, but almost nothing about rifles.

I have no desire to hunt.  This would be solely for marksmanship purposes.  Three position shooting would be nice but not going for match grade guns.  I can't afford the likes of an Anschutz.

So, point me in the direction of a good first rifle.  I am open to all suggestions and will narrow it down from there.


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## WIDirt (Jan 23, 2012)

I personally own 4 large caliber rifles that I would recommend. All are fairly inexpensive. Understand that at 9 yo., a large caliber rifle will punish your son. Think mid-caliber in a youth model for him. (.243 - .270)

Any model 98 Mauser action 30.06 would be a great rifle. I have two. A Mauser and a Weatherby.
I have a Smith and Wesson A-bolt in .270. My wife can shoot this, though it moves her pretty good.
And last, a Remington 700 in .243 for my son (bought when he was 10, is now 15), though I think he'll be taking up the .270 and I'll downgrade my wife to the .243.

Another thing you might want to look at if you want to really do the 3 gun type, a Remington R-15 in .223 caliber. (Pay attention to the ammo you buy for this rifle. While .223 and 5.56mm are almost identical, 5.56mm is usually ball ammo and CANNOT be used in this rifle.) I have one of these also, and out to 400 yards the thing is amazing! That is as far as our range goes currently, though the owners are looking into 600 and 1000 meter stations. 

I have a number of other toys also, including the .22 my Dad bought when I was 3. My son can hit an full sized elk silhouette at 300 yards with it! I know, he does it every time we go to the range. I keep telling him to quit showing off.


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## qballizhere (Jan 23, 2012)

For a 9 yr old a 22lr is great for a while that is what I started on.


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## tokyotank (Jan 23, 2012)

New England Firearms single shot. Nice thing about the is you can switch barrels from 22 long rifle up some of the big bores. Another real good and adaptable platform is the AR. the AR is a gun that will grow with him and has very low recoil. Just my .02


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## Haynie (Jan 23, 2012)

I meant a rifle for me.  He gets the 22.


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## melski (Jan 23, 2012)

Any of the AR type for mild recoil and variable caliber, even in 22LR.  A great economical first gun that will last forever would be a 22LR, something like the Marlin 795 or Ruger 10/22.


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## Rolland (Jan 23, 2012)

deleted


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## Gin N' Tonic (Jan 23, 2012)

qballizhere said:


> For a 9 yr old a 22lr is great for a while that is what I started on.



I agree,

If you have no desire to hunt then you don't need more than a .22
Ammo is fairly inexpensive, recoil is negligible and the gun can be used in most indoor ranges.


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## Crashmph (Jan 23, 2012)

My father's birthday present for his 10th birthday was a Marlin .44mag 336T rifle, but this was not his first firearm to shoot.  He had been shooting a .22 since he was six and my grandfather's 300 Savage since 8.

For me... I was gifted my grandfather's 300 Savage as my first rifle and hit was his first rifle when he was 8.  Then again my grandfather was herding cattle at 5 cause he could sit upright in a saddle.  That was 1915, and a long time ago.


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## Displaced Canadian (Jan 23, 2012)

JMHO A good all around cartridge would be a 30-06. Easy to get ammo for and will do just about anything you want it to. As for a brand go to a gun show and try bring one up to a firing position and see what is comfortable. A Savage bolt action doesn't have a lot of wow factor but I have yet to see one shoot bad.


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## StephenM (Jan 23, 2012)

I have 4 22's and don't really want anything heavier (don't really hunt). They're fun to shoot and it doesn't break the bank to shoot all day long.

CZ 452 American (bolt action)
Ruger 1022
Henry lever action (incredibly fun and incredibly accurate)
Marlin 22 magnum  (ammo not so cheap for this one)


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## Smitty37 (Jan 23, 2012)

*Well*

If you don't intend to take up competitive shooting and are not interested in hunting.  You can punch holes in paper with just about anything.  22s are about as cheap as you can shoot.  I personally think the .30s like the .308 Winchester and 30-06 are more fun to shoot --- but they do cost a whole lot more than shooting a 22.


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## DJS588 (Jan 23, 2012)

One other you might want to look at is the Thompson Center G2 Contender.
in rifle form, you can get barrels to handle everything from .22lr to centerfire calibers ranging from the .17 HMR to the .45/70.
Single shot and quite accurate.
Just a thought.


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## mb007 (Jan 23, 2012)

+1 on the Ruger 10/22. Inexpensive to shoot, easy to maintain, and tons of upgrade possibilities if that's your thing. 

I'd also like to recommend Project Appleseed as a marksmanship class. Project Appleseed Home. I did my first in November '11, and plan on doing another this year. It's a great opportunity to learn marksmanship skills, as well as some Revolutionary War history. It'll also qualify you to be able to purchase a M-1 Garand through the CMP, well below market price. If I can stop buying pen-making supplies, I'm hoping to get one this year.


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## JFD (Jan 23, 2012)

Don't overlook the most popular 22 rifle ever, with over 11,000,000 sold since 1960, the venerable Marlin Model 60.

Marlin Model 60 .22 Rifles


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## LeeR (Jan 23, 2012)

I own a Bushmaster M4 carbine (AR15), and love to shoot it, but a few years ago I bought the Smith & Wesson M&P15-22 for under $500.  It is an AR-15 lookalike in .22LR.  Fun to shoot all day on the cheap.

If you haven't bought your sone the rifle yet, thsi one might be fun for both of you.


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## socdad (Jan 23, 2012)

A 30-06 and 308 are great rifles but not for a 9 year old just learning to safely shoot. I would agree with those indorsing a 22 but if you are dead set on something with more bang (and more bucks) I would look at a 30-30.


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## DavidWayne1971 (Jan 24, 2012)

Id have to agree with most of the others here... if your just looking for something to go shoot alongside your son, the .22 is the way to go. I own a Henry Golden Boy .22 and could sit there and shoot all day long because its fun and really inexpensive to shoot. My daughters came down for the holidays and got to shoot it (their first time with a real gun) and we had a blast for a few hours with my gun and my sisters Marlin model 60. Best part is, we didnt even shoot half a brick of shells so all of our fun cost us about 10 bucks. Oh, and just one more quick tip... we took paper plates and used a sharpie to fill in a bullseye. Our range has wooden backboards that you just use a staple gun to attach the targets to. A .99 cent pack of 25 plates goes alot farther than spending 5-10 bucks for a dozen or less "real" ones.

Oh, and if you really just want something bigger for yourself... I used to own a Russian made SKS. The rounds arent as cheap as the .22 but def less than some of the larger rounds. They are made to take abuse and I never once had a misfire or any other issue with mine and I put thousands of rounds thru it. I absolutley LOVED that gun, but hard times came down and I had to sell her to pay the bills. They arent that hard to find, and you can get accesories like synthetic stocks for them, but stick with the Russian or Yugoislavian models, Ive heard alot of the chinese models had issues. And then, once your son is a little older and ready for something bigger than the .22... this would be a great next step for him.


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## fireangels (Jan 24, 2012)

If you got a 223 you both could benefit from it 
low kick recoil
good for targets
 good accuracy (round chosen by lots of snipers) 
can be used to hunt as well


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## Ankrom Exotics (Jan 24, 2012)

Ruger model 77, available in a few different calibers. If it's for target shooting, plinking only then keep the cost of ammo in mind.

For extending shooting sessions it's hard to beat an accurate .22LR. All the fun with none of the bruising to your body or your wallet.


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## bitshird (Jan 24, 2012)

A good rifle for your self would be a Remington 700 model, I think the fiber stocks are ugly, but the sure can take a lot of punishment. Caliber wise if you're just punching paper, a 243, which also ain't too shabby on deer and they have a good reach. But ammo is a lot more than a 22 and it's hard to beat a Ruger 10-22, awfully nice rifle for a 22.


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## PenMan1 (Jan 24, 2012)

+2 on the Ruger 10/22.  This rifle is a favorite of competition target shooters everywhere. Additionally, almost every arms accessory maker offers accessories (custom stocks, scopes, clips, competition modifications) for the weapon.

Above all else, it has easy to use safety features and is perhaps the most accurate of any traget rifle under $1000.


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## LandfillLumber (Jan 24, 2012)

A .22 is a great gun for shooting and its cheap to shoot.Then buy a bigger rifle when he gets to be about 12.Good luck and nice to see kids getting into outdoors stuff in this day and age,lol.Victor


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## AultMan (Jan 24, 2012)

The Marlin 917vs - .17 HMR would be a great gun for anyone.  I have dozens of rifles and shoot over 10,000 rounds per year.  There is no gun in my vault I enjoy more than my .17 HMR.  The ammo is a little more expensive than a .22LR, but you already said you have one of those and it is way less than other rifle ammo.

It performs like a larger caliber rifle as far a trajectory, so it is a blast to shoot.  It has zero recoil and is quite.  Literally every time I have handed the gun to a novice, they start hitting anything within 100 yards like a pro.  I have never seen such a flat shooting, easy to use and fun cartridge as the .17 HMR.

I have the BSA Sweet 16 scope on it which is specifically made for the caliber, so all you do is sight it in and then dial whatever yardage in you want.  Of course, that makes it a little more expensive, but you could start with iron sights and save for a scope for his next birthday or something like that.


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## wolftat (Jan 24, 2012)

I do a lot of shooting and for a plinker that is ultra accurate, you will have a hard time beating a Walther G22. It is a bullpup so you will take some ribbing if you try to shoot in competition, but that will end when you show them what can be done with it. It is also the prefered rifle when I teach a kid to shoot, it has better balance than a traditional rifle so it is more managable for them.

I also use an old CBC nylon rifle on occasion and that thing will take a trophy everytime, but good luck finding one for sale.


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## Haynie (Jan 24, 2012)

Thanks for the information.  I have done some research and evaluated my needs.

Accuracy is key.  Yes, I know a lot depends on the skill of the shooter but we all know that there are accurate guns and less than accurate guns.  My race gun is an accurate gun.  So I am looking for accuracy at longer distance.  Any distance marksman shooters here?

Anyone purchase from gunbroker.com?  Is it a crap shoot?


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## bubbatww (Jan 24, 2012)

Sure you will get lots of comments on accuracy as well. For me, my National Match M14 Springfield Armory is all I needed, this is my 1000 meter rifle. Nice rifle, a bit on the heavy side but well worth it. Lots will say bolt action which is more accurate but I'm left handed and never got the feel for a bolt action growing up and every now and then its nice to rattle off a few quick rounds down range


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## titan2 (Jan 24, 2012)

Haynie said:


> I meant a rifle for me. He gets the 22.


 
Oh.....then I'd say a 'Barret' 50cal........good for at least a mile and only $4 a shot!!! 


Barney


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## Rick P (Jan 24, 2012)

Haynie

Glad your boy is getting into shooting. Now as to a rifle for you which was your question in the first place. If accuracy is your game get hold of a TC Encore. The Contender is nice but limited in calibers. If your into hand guns enough to own a race gun you'll probably end up wanting more than just one caliber. The barrels switch out on an encore very easily and there are several custom shops available if you want to get into hyper accuracy. As to caliber choice that depends a bit on what you mean by "distance" shooting. For this we'll say 300 meeter. My personal choice is a .300 Winchester magnum, but I also hunt with mine and it is a bit of a thumper. For a light distance round the 270 or 22-250 is hard to beat. If you plan on shooting 100 meter 223 is a great choice. In bolt guns take a look at the Winchester model 70, the Remington model 700 or a savage tactical. The savage is the second most accurate production rifle I have ever shot, the encore being first. Don't mess with sport barrels as your not going to be lugging it around in the bush you want the big barreled target version of whatever rifle you decide on. Be ready for sticker shock! Distance guns are not cheap! And personally I'd never buy a used gun that I hadn't looked down the bore of, so in my opinion on line sites are out. Your glass selection is just as important as the rifle! The best barrel and action in the world wont do squat unless you have good optics. Also stay away from semi auto, yes there are many fine semi auto rifles out there that have excellent accuracy, but none will beat a breach or bolt action.


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## Rick P (Jan 24, 2012)

Barney try more like $14 a shot for the Barret 50 BMG........$4 is closer to the cost of my 300win/mag.


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## Haynie (Jan 24, 2012)

Thanks Rick.  Notes taken.  I am sure I will have a lot more questions as I go.


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## Rick P (Jan 24, 2012)

Your welcome, Next time your at the range wander over and say howdy to the distance guys, we are a bit focused but most are very happy to help.


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## Displaced Canadian (Jan 24, 2012)

My hunting rifle is a Winchester model 70 300 Win. Mag. Stainless 26" barrel with a 3X9 Burris scope. I would hand load a 165 gr. spitzer boat tail moving at 3000 fps (a light load) and at 100 yards can put 3 shots in a 3/4" group. Speed it up to 3100 fps and it's a 1 1/2" group. Nothing has been done to the rifle except for the scope it is 100% stock. Haven't shot it in about 10 years. Thinking of trading it in for a contender.


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## Displaced Canadian (Jan 24, 2012)

If you want serious accuracy you should consider hand loading.


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## snyiper (Jan 24, 2012)

I have and enjoy my Stevens/Savage bolt action 22. inexpensive and accurate if your doing indoor ranges. If you want a little more fun I would look at the 10/22 as others have stated perfect for just about any plinking shooting desires. I also will say if you want more umph look at the SKS or the AK both cheap to shoot and can be fairly accurate with a minimum of tweaking. If I had a choice I might go with the AR platform if I wanted a bit bigger cartridge lots of fun and plenty of upgrades and quite a nice shooter. I guess it all depends on exactly what the end goal for you is.


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## glycerine (Jan 24, 2012)

I've got a semi-auto Savage .22 I got from Wal-Mart years ago for right around $100.  Great to shoot because the ammo is cheap!  I've added a scope, bi-pod and sling to it.  If I were to do it all over, I'd probably get a Ruger 10/22 just because there are so many cool aftermarket accessories you can get for them!  (stocks, suppressors, barrels, etc.)


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## LeeR (Jan 24, 2012)

Rick P said:


> Barney try more like $14 a shot for the Barret 50 BMG........$4 is closer to the cost of my 300win/mag.


 
Wow, shipping to Alaska must be up there .. $4 or so is the norm here, and incendiary rounds at the gun shows are around $3 each (economy of scale when you are buying a popular military round ...).


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## Smitty37 (Jan 24, 2012)

*Also*

.222 Remington 700 BDL was pretty good for shooting 4-5 rounds pretty much through the same hole and picking off woodchucks out to about 250 yards.  Not overly expensive to shoot at about 50 cents a round or so.


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## turner.curtis (Jan 24, 2012)

I would strongly recommend sticking with a 22 for basic marksmanship. Too bad you are in AZ, I have a Winchester 52D, Hammerli, and an older Anchutz 1407 that I regularly lend out to new shooters. The biggest reason I suggest sticking with 22 for the time being, even for yourself, is that not only is it cheaper on your wallet plinking and spending time with your son, but it will also build skills much faster than centerfire. For your average 22 with average ammo from the local bigbox store you can spend the day on the range shooting 50-100 yards for less then $20.00 in ammo. 

That said, if you look closely enough and make sure you are getting subsonic (slower than 1170fps) you will also have fairly good accuracy as dependent upon how precise the machining of the action / chamber is,  stress relief of the tube, and overall QA of that ammo. Now why will this build Marksmanship skills? Well your average centerfire rifle, ie a 308, 30-06 etc etc are going to be pushing that projectile 2500+fps, so at least 2x if not close to 3x faster then the 22. Thus assuming a 28-30" barrel on both you will conversely have 3x longer that the bullet is in the barrel and can be effected by the shooter with the rimfire, so you are forced to have a better position and much better follow through. Then pushing out to 100yds you will have exaggerated effects of wind and mirage on the projectile thus you have to learn to dope the conditions much faster and more accurately.

For a hunting rifle I commonly refer people to a .243 or .308. Honestly unless you are hunting bigger game there is no real reason for any of the larger calibers or belted magnums. Most hunters are not comfortable with anything over about 200 - 250 yards and honestly probably are not aware enough of their surroundings to try for anything much farther out there...  I personally have use an old bolt action 30-30 for the majority of deer I have taken although in AZ you can probably find areas where the effective range for the 30-30 is not feasible as I would not try to take anything over about 150 yards with it.


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## ALexG (Jan 24, 2012)

Wow, I feel ashamed here, the closest I've been to any ammunition were my bullet pens I've turned so far


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## Rick P (Jan 24, 2012)

LeeR said:


> Rick P said:
> 
> 
> > Barney try more like $14 a shot for the Barret 50 BMG........$4 is closer to the cost of my 300win/mag.
> ...


 
Just double checked and your right, they have come down dramatically since I last priced them........


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## Rick P (Jan 24, 2012)

turner.curtis said:


> Most hunters are not comfortable with anything over about 200 - 250 yards and honestly probably are not aware enough of their surroundings to try for anything much farther out there...


 
Mind explaining this? Distance shooters often talk about being in the zone and not seeing anything other than the target, some claim they are so focused they dont even hear the gun go off! If your not aware of your suroundings as a hunter you need to stay the hell home!


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## Haynie (Jan 24, 2012)

Rick P said:


> If your not aware of your suroundings as a *SHOOTER *you need to stay the hell home!



Probably what it should read.


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## Smitty37 (Jan 24, 2012)

*Don't overlook used.*

If you are buying a good rifle, I wouldn't overlook used.  People who have good target rifles generally give them pretty good care and some of them (like the Remington 700 I had) were used pretty lightly.  I didn't do a lot of target shooting, I was woodchuck hunting and probably wasn't pushing more than a box or two of ammunition through it in a year.  When I sold it the barrell was still like new. Probably had less than 200 rounds fired through it and I sold it for half what a new one would have cost.


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## turner.curtis (Jan 24, 2012)

No, I meant exactly what I said. In the realm of hunting you are generally in an area of a thicket or wood line where visibility is going to be more limited than say at Camp Perry or even your local range where there are no obstructions for the full 100, 200 or even 1000+ yards of the long line, plus at the range you are aware where everyone is. Being that most hunters do not completely scout the area and adjacent areas they are hunting, there is a higher probability that they will not know what is 600 - 1000 yards down range, possibly even on someone Else's property. That said this assertion CAN NOT be applied to everyone but is a general safe assumption when erring on the side of caution. 

That said even a 22 with one helluva artillery style lob can traverse quite a distance on the occasion that the hunter is excited jerks one off and misses, do you think they will be able to quickly do the trig in their head to determine a rough approximation of the trajectory and know what is there? probably not...  in the flood of excitement I would be willing to be they are going to rack the bolt and break off another round if the animal is still around never thinking about what their miss actually hit.

Having been a smallbore and highpower shooter for over 20 years there is a major difference in shooting long line versus hunting, some are as stated above. I can say that yes when in the "zone" or as Lanny Bassham would put it, having your well trained subconscious take over,  I do not know when I have broken my shot, but I know where it is going and can usually even call that shot for which clock quadrant and what ring before I ever break my eyes over to my spotting scope. That said the major differences there, is on the range the shooter knows what is infront and surrounding them and they are watching a lot more than being zoned in on the target as you HAVE to dope the wind and mirage. Most importantly that shooter that can "zone" in has spent hundreds of hours on the range repeating every exact motion like a robot to train their subconscious and develop muscle memory therefore there is a lot more decided and meticulously planned actions versus a snapped jerk during an adrenaline rush.

Once again there are caveats, but in general terms erring on the side of caution I will stand behind my statements any day.


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## Rick P (Jan 24, 2012)

Curtis thats not being unaware of your surroundings thats having a safe shooting distance limited by the features of the area your hunting! The fact those limits are there dose not mean your unaware of them, other potential safety issues or shot placement and background.......a good hunter is ACUTLTY aware of these factors, if not he has no business taking a shot! And you can bet you arse I am every bit as familiar, comfortable and consistent with my platform as most target shooters, probably more so. If not I would have no business taking a shot! There is a lot more ridding on my shot placement than a hole in paper! 


Repetition and practice? A hunter had better have done his range work till he can guarantee shot placement or he again has no business taking a shot. Your taking about unethical lazy sport killers not Hunters........"Most importantly that shooter that can "zone" in has spent hundreds of hours on the range repeating every exact motion like a robot to train their subconscious and develop muscle memory therefore there is a lot more decided and meticulously planned actions versus a snapped jerk during an adrenaline rush........Who the heck do you hunt with? Someone in a group "snaps one off" without knowing where he put it up here he's done till he has dealt with his "buck fever". Seriously your saying hunters pay no attention to where they are shooting and don't practice. That's blatantly untrue, insulting and no one I know would do that!

PS I have over 35 years of experiance in the field and on ranges and this is the first time I can remeber a shooter looking down his nose at a fellow sportsman because he hapens to do more than punch holes with a rifle! This stuff is BASIC to all shooting sports man!


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## Smitty37 (Jan 24, 2012)

*1000 yard shots*

Until I decided I didn't want to shoot animals anymore 1n 1987 I had been hunting White Tail Deer for about 38 years.  Since I hunted mostly in North Eastern Pennsylvania and the Southern Tier of NY State I never even saw an animal that was 1000 yards away while hunting....and I'm not at all sure I ever saw one that far away ever.  I never hunted anywhere where you could even see a deer that far away.  In NY we were required to use a shotgun with slugs and generally we were sighted in at 40 to 50 yards.

Our problem was not worrying about what/who might be wandering around a half a mile away, but worrying about who might be wandering around or standing 75 yards away that we didn't know about.


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## Displaced Canadian (Jan 25, 2012)

Where I was everybody knew the dope on their gun, a lot of time was spent on the range developing their loads, and we all knew what size group could be shot off a steady rest at 100 yards. Guys would say how many yard shots they would be comfortable shooting at a deer and most were saying 300 to 350 as a maximum distance. One day a barrel with a 3" orange sticker showed up at the range at 200 yards. A lot of people shot at it and nobody landed a "kill shot" around the circle. To say the least it was an eye opener. The guns were capable but most of the shooters were not. Too much time on the bench and not enough on practical shooting.
 Learning to control your nerves is one of the most difficult things to master when hunting. I saw a person shoot a tree stump twice, A friend of mine saw a moose, jacked every shell out of his rifle but never fired a shot. Another friend of mine is a bear guide and shoots the same time the client does and about 80% of the time it is his shot that kills the bear.


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## hunter-27 (Jan 25, 2012)

Displaced Canadian said:


> Where I was everybody knew the dope on their gun, a lot of time was spent on the range developing their loads, and we all knew what size group could be shot off a steady rest at 100 yards. Guys would say how many yard shots they would be comfortable shooting at a deer and most were saying 300 to 350 as a maximum distance. One day a barrel with a 3" orange sticker showed up at the range at 200 yards. A lot of people shot at it and nobody landed a "kill shot" around the circle. To say the least it was an eye opener. The guns were capable but most of the shooters were not. Too much time on the bench and not enough on practical shooting.
> Learning to control your nerves is one of the most difficult things to master when hunting. I saw a person shoot a tree stump twice, A friend of mine saw a moose, jacked every shell out of his rifle but never fired a shot. Another friend of mine is a bear guide and shoots the same time the client does and about 80% of the time it is his shot that kills the bear.



Remind me not to use him as a guide, that is a sad way to get a guy to fill a bear tag.  I'd rather go without.:biggrin:


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## Rick P (Jan 25, 2012)

Agreed Hunter-27 not an ethical nor a legal way here in Alaska to fill a tag. And he'd be turned in so fast it would give him whiplash if I was his client!

"Another friend of mine is a bear guide and shoots the same time the client does and about 80% of the time it is his shot that kills the bear."


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## Rick P (Jan 25, 2012)

One day a barrel with a 3" orange sticker showed up at the range at 200 yards. A lot of people shot at it and nobody landed a "kill shot" around the circle. To say the least it was an eye opener. The guns were capable but most of the shooters were not. Too much time on the bench and not enough on practical shooting.

Exactly why most, including myself, practice practicle shooting......what you discribe is in no way shape or form the norm in my experiance. Also in real terms a shot greater than 100 yards is rare and unnessisary in the field.


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## Displaced Canadian (Jan 25, 2012)

Usually there is 2 holes in the bear, one through the front shoulder which will bring the bear down and is the guides shot the second is usually in some random spot and rarely a kill shot from the client. The thinking is better a dead brown bear with 2 holes than a wounded bear with one. Most of these clients buy a rifle for the trip and have barely shot enough to sight it in. Most of these clients aren't hunters, They are rich people who just want to do it so they can say they shot a grizzly bear. A 5 day hunt with these guys is $10,000.


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## Rick P (Jan 25, 2012)

Respectfully Displaced Canadian clients like that are not hunters! They are wanabes, sport killers and a big part of what is wrong with hunting today! To many are willing to ignore that kind of foolishness in the name of money over hunting ethics. To many are willing to keep there mouth shut when basic hunting ethics are ignored for the "sake of a new hunter in the sport". Thank god they do not represent the majority, only a spoiled and lazy minority. Fear of anti's has made us our own worst enemy........


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## Woodlvr (Jan 25, 2012)

I received that Marlin 60 in 1980 for Christmas. I only wish that I could find a larger clip for it.


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## Displaced Canadian (Jan 25, 2012)

Rick,
  I completely agree with you. A most if not all of those guys just want a head mounted on the wall and a rug on the floor and if they were locals wouldn't even be allowed out in the woods. The town I was in is very big on responsible hunting and that was the reason the barrel showed up at the range. There was a growing group of people in there late teens and early 20's who were concentrating on their guns and not their ability to shoot. It showed these kids that they needed to shorten up their personal maximum range or practice "real" shooting.


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## Rick P (Jan 25, 2012)

Gottcha bud! Wish there was a double like button Displaced Canadian.......I get kinda protective as hunting isnt sport for me, it's how I feed my family, how I was raised and my families way of life.

Sad that media pays far more attention to horn porn than teaching hunting skills and ethics.........guess thats were us grummpy old farts come in?


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## Rick P (Jan 25, 2012)

On a lighter note look what the moose did to the yard last night! They were evn on the pourch.....geuss they were looking for a relative in the smoker?


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## dogcatcher (Jan 25, 2012)

Stay with the common calibers, the ammo is easier to find.  I know in the Southwest the common calibers were easier to find even when there is an ammo shortage.  If you buy some of the hot magnum calibers you can also limit your bullet selections, because retailers don't stock all of the "off the wall" calibers in all bullet configurations.  243, 30-30, 308 and 270 would be my choices.  30-30 the last choice, it's range is not that of the others.


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## Smitty37 (Jan 25, 2012)

*I'm with you on that*



hunter-27 said:


> Displaced Canadian said:
> 
> 
> > Where I was everybody knew the dope on their gun, a lot of time was spent on the range developing their loads, and we all knew what size group could be shot off a steady rest at 100 yards. Guys would say how many yard shots they would be comfortable shooting at a deer and most were saying 300 to 350 as a maximum distance. One day a barrel with a 3" orange sticker showed up at the range at 200 yards. A lot of people shot at it and nobody landed a "kill shot" around the circle. To say the least it was an eye opener. The guns were capable but most of the shooters were not. Too much time on the bench and not enough on practical shooting.
> ...


 I wouldn't tolerate that and unless he is hunting on a preserve it's probably not legal, no where that I ever hunted allowed a hunter to tag an animal killed by someone else.


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## titan2 (Jan 25, 2012)

Rick P said:


> Barney try more like $14 a shot for the Barret 50 BMG........$4 is closer to the cost of my 300win/mag.


 
That's a price I found for ex-military rounds I ran across on-line a while back. It'd be fun to shoot if you can find a range long enough (and close enough) for the long shots......would definately put a dent in the old wallet!!!


Barney


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## Smitty37 (Jan 25, 2012)

Rick P said:


> One day a barrel with a 3" orange sticker showed up at the range at 200 yards. A lot of people shot at it and nobody landed a "kill shot" around the circle. To say the least it was an eye opener. The guns were capable but most of the shooters were not. Too much time on the bench and not enough on practical shooting.
> 
> Exactly why most, including myself, practice practicle shooting......what you discribe is in no way shape or form the norm in my experiance. Also in real terms a shot greater than 100 yards is rare and unnessisary in the field.


Where I grew up and hunted most of our shooting was at make shift ranges, with our hunting rifles (or shotguns) for the purpose of sighting them in.  The exception being one of the local farmers used to host a turkey shoot (we didn't shoot the turkey like sergeant York).  One of my great sources of pride is the day using my Model 88 Winchester with a 1 1/2 to 4 power hunting scope in a 100 yard bench shoot,  I beat a guy using a bull barrelled .257 Roberts with a 10 power scope.  

We all were pretty good shots because we used .22's a lot for plinking, punching a little paper and shooting rats at a local dump.


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## TellicoTurning (Jan 25, 2012)

Never was much of a shooter myself... I had a little 1911 or 1921(not sure of the year.. just trying to remember what my dad said it was) Stevens single shot .22 that my dad bought off a friend in west Texas... we used it to squirrel hunt some and I used to take it out to a friends house to plink around with... my friend had a little pump .22, but I think my single shot was more accurate... at least I generally could outshoot him.  
A cousin and I took it down to the city reservoir in Coolidge, Texas once and shot snakes with it... we sat up the hill above the reservoir and plinked down into the water and at the ones laying on the rocks... they were all cottonmouths and we didn't get too close. 
My son has the rifle now... he's more into shooting than I am.


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## Rick P (Jan 25, 2012)

"We all were pretty good shots because we used .22's a lot for plinking, punching a little paper and shooting rats at a local dump."

Add to that the practical shooting you and I did/do on make shift ranges and it's no wonder you were good shots. Part of the reason I stay sharp all year is that there is only 3 months when I cant put meat in the pot of some kind, so I almost always have a bow pistol or a rifle  on me. I have been asked "how many days a year do you hunt?" Well thats hard to say because I never miss an opportunity to put food in the family Lauder, whether we are gathering fire wood or on a "hunt".........in fact I'd say I spend more time shooting than most "avid" target shooters in any given year. I have yet to see the range busy at -40 and I am still harvesting small game and the cold is the best time for predator hunting since the fur is prime.


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## fred holsclaw (Jan 25, 2012)

577/450 is not a bad round 
500 grain bullet  pushed by 80 grains single f black powder  paper patched to 483 bore di. 
shooting a old  martini/henery 1884 rifle


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## Smitty37 (Jan 25, 2012)

*I'll take your word for that....*

I never got into black powder very much.  I put together and finished a Connecticut Valley Arms Hawken Rifle to hang over my fire place that we took out and shot once.  At 40 yards with the recommended load it tossed a round ball pretty accurately.  I never hunted with it but my son-in-law has it now and has taken white tail deer with it.


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## Displaced Canadian (Jan 25, 2012)

Personal opinion Setting up a bunch of targets at a variety of sizes, distances, and heights and plinking away with a .22 is about the best practice and fun that you can have. In early spring we would go out to the creek and stand up chunks of river ice and use them as targets. They explode when hit, no mess to clean up, and as the day wears on the targets get smaller. 
 First gun I shot was a Red Ryder BB gun, the second a Mossberg 16 ga. shotgun (missed the intended animal but the barn ended up with a hole in it.) still can't hit anything with a shotgun. Then I shot a .22. I would not recommend this progression for anybody. 
 I never told my Dad about shooting the barn, he never asked. I'm sure he knew, there was a hole the size of a silver dollar 18" off the ground and only a foot to the left of the main door.


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## turner.curtis (Jan 30, 2012)

Rick P, maybe you do not remember the course of events that happened back in 2006... It does not matter how many years 'you' have behind the trigger, or what 'you' do for practice. When you come hunting with me, which I very rarely do anymore, I am going to be extremely paranoid and more concerned with 'you' as I do not know you or your abilities Mental and physical. Simply it boils back down to "That said this assertion CAN NOT be applied to everyone but is a general safe assumption when erring on the side of caution." I always err on the side of caution, and there for hopefully prevent an issue like Dick Cheney did back in 2006. Whom, if I remember right, was supposedly an avid sportsman/hunter/shooter.

Just like with cars these days, we just do not get the end product that we did in the 60s, or at least as beefy of a product with the absence of any plastics, and made from real USA steel... I feel the same for hunters education these days...


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## Haynie (Jan 30, 2012)

Leaning towards the TC Encore.  Seems to be a well built gun, and I like the versatility.  But, it is a single shot.  I have read that a single shot is more accurate but I am not sure I buy it.  Once again I only have my pistols to compare.  Any thoughts?


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## Rick P (Jan 30, 2012)

So your more than happy to condemn the biggest group in the shooting community for the actions of a tiny percentage of hunters? Once again get yer damn nose out of the air! The FACT we have a better safety record than bicyclists speaks for it's self! And exactly what does some rich fat ******* have to do with me, how I hunt or my attention to shooting safety or the environment in which I hunt? Or for that matter the average hunter? Your attitude is so far off it comes very close to bigotry!

I dont hunt with anyone till I know they understand BASIC safety rules.......Obviously Dick Chaney does not.


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## Rick P (Jan 30, 2012)

Haynie:

Sorry I keep having to deal with ignorance, this thread should be about helping you pick your first rifle, not defending the hunting community from a self absorbed target shooter!

The more moving parts a system has the less likely everything is going to line up exactly the same every time. Consistency is in very important to accuracy. A breach action has very few moving parts......it also forces you to slow down and think before a follow up shot. Focus is another of the pillars of accuracy. Frankly you probably wont notice too much down range difference between a breach action and a bolt action, the breach is simply my preference, but like pen turning there is more than one way to reach your goals.


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## Smitty37 (Jan 30, 2012)

*Probably won't notice*



Haynie said:


> Leaning towards the TC Encore. Seems to be a well built gun, and I like the versatility. But, it is a single shot. I have read that a single shot is more accurate but I am not sure I buy it. Once again I only have my pistols to compare. Any thoughts?


I strongly suspect you won't notice 10 cents worth of difference between the accuracy of the breach loading rifle and a good bolt action rifle.  And, unless you are planning on competition shooting you probably won't care since either should be plenty accurate for recreational shooting or hunting.  I had a model 1898 Springfield 30-40 Krag carbine used in the Spanish-American war that shot a pretty decent group at 100 yards and could lay the first round just about where I wanted it to be when hunting.


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## Displaced Canadian (Jan 30, 2012)

Rick pretty much explained the single shot thing. As long as you are just punching paper the number of shots in the gun really doesn't matter. If you are a bench rest shooter a bolt is nicer because you don't have to pick up the rifle to reload. Exactly what kind of shooting are you thinking of doing? Up north I had a TC contender with a 10" barrel and off a rest you could drive nails with it. I'm thinking one of these days trading in my 300 for a TC Encore something with a 14" barrel for long distance pistol shooting.


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## Haynie (Jan 30, 2012)

Thanks.


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## Florida Marine (Jan 31, 2012)

Got my son a Rossi two barrel, .22 and 410.

Loves it!


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## Rick P (Jan 31, 2012)

My wife had the Rossi in .22, 20ga and .243. Great little gun.


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