# Differences in Nib size (the point)



## les-smith (Oct 26, 2007)

I'm still learning the nuances of using a fountain pen.  I've made two to use for my self, but have yet to try and sell one.  Still learning.

I've bought three nibs from Arizona Silhouette,  Fine, Medium and Broad.  Broad was to broad, Fine was to Fine, so I tried the Medium.  I can't tell any difference between the Medium and the Fine.  

My questions is:  Should there be a distinct difference between the two or should it be hard to tell, both by looking at the nib itself and by looking at the ink on the paper.


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## holmqer (Oct 26, 2007)

In general there should be a difference between the three, but the ink / paper combination you are using may be feathering enough on the fine that makes it hard to tell it apart from the medium.

Another possibility is that the medium nib either came out fine due to manufacturing tolerances or they mislabled as fine as medium.

As you find the fine to be too fine, I am more inclined to suspect that the medium is writing too fine.

I generally fine most medium to be too broad, I use extra fine as a daily writer.


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## DCBluesman (Oct 26, 2007)

Welcome to the inexact world of tip widths.  There's no agreement on what constitutes any of the common terms for nib widths.  Some Manufacturers consider a 0.3 mm nib fine while othersgo as far as a 0.5 mm.  Broads can range from 0.75 mm to 1.1 mm.  I find the more important measure is the line that is drawn.  To me a 0.4 to 0.5 mm line is fine and 0.8-0.9 mm is broad.  Remember that the width of the tip is almost always wider than the line it draws.  As for the replacement nibs, they need to be significantly fine-tuned to get a somewhat reasonable measure of the line they write.  They tip widths vary considerably from nib to nib.


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## les-smith (Oct 26, 2007)

Oh man, Here we go!  More Money $$$  I'm starting to think that I'm going to have to buy nibs until I find one I like.  I assume once you find a nib size and manufacturer you like you just stay with them.  I haven't tried to buy anyting really nice yet, other than ink.  I just figured that since I feel I'm still learning it wasn't worth it.  Maybe it's time to reconsider.

As far as the paper I use, its got to be the cheapest, I'm sure.  I use my pen mainly at work and it's the paper they buy.


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## ed4copies (Oct 26, 2007)

> _Originally posted by DCBluesman_
> 
> Welcome to the inexact world of tip widths.  There's no agreement on what constitutes any of the common terms for nib widths.  Some Manufacturers consider a 0.3 mm nib fine while othersgo as far as a 0.5 mm.  Broads can range from 0.75 mm to 1.1 mm.  I find the more important measure is the line that is drawn.  To me a 0.4 to 0.5 mm line is fine and 0.8-0.9 mm is broad.  Remember that the width of the tip is almost always wider than the line it draws.  As for the replacement nibs, they need to be significantly fine-tuned to get a somewhat reasonable measure of the line they write.  They tip widths vary considerably from nib to nib.



Back to the classroom!!  

Lou, you mention that they vary from nib to nib.  Is this also true of the "big boys" - will a Mt. Blanc, Lamy, Schaefer, etc fine nib always lay down the SAME SIZE line?  Are we really talking about "kit pen" nibs when we say they vary???

When my customer says, "I like a fine nib", SHOULD the next question be, "Who's fine nib?"  or "What size - in mm - line does that lay down?"

Summarizing: Is the "nib slop factor" throughout the industry, or has the "kit pen" introduced and expanded upon this factor???


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## Texatdurango (Oct 26, 2007)

Les, It looks like I may be a few steps ahead of you on the learning curve.  I have tried several nibs recently including stock nibs from half a dozen kits, replacement nibs from Craft Supply and a few gold nibs offered here on IAP.

I really agree with Lou on the sizes not being uniform.  I drove myself nuts with some replacement nibs being marked v.fine, fine and med.  After a few minutes I got them mixed up and couldn't tell half of them apart.

So far, the best "out of the box" nibs I have tried that give me a nice "medium" line are the nibs supplied with the "Jr" and "Sr" sized Gents and Statesmen from Craft Supply.  I liked them so well, I just ordered 30 fountain pen kits just to get an assortment of various plated nib assemblies so I can retrofit some existing kits.  Now I can display a pen for sale in any plating and offer the same pen as either a rollerball or fountain pen. 

You mentioned stepping up to a nicer pen, in my opinion, any of the Craft Supply pens mentioned above would make a very nice pen.


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## gerryr (Oct 26, 2007)

The answer is learn to grind your own.  I tried it for the first time a couple of days ago and it is much easier in reality than thinking about it.  I practiced on 2 steel nibs and then re-ground a medium 14K nib into a fine.


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## jeffj13 (Oct 26, 2007)

> _Originally posted by gerryr_
> 
> The answer is learn to grind your own.  I tried it for the first time a couple of days ago and it is much easier in reality than thinking about it.  I practiced on 2 steel nibs and then re-ground a medium 14K nib into a fine.



I was thinking of doing this.  What do you use as a grinding tool?

jeff


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## Scott (Oct 26, 2007)

Fine, medium, broad, these are all relative terms as far as fountain pens go.  While the big commercial companies have pretty consistent nibs, what constitutes a "fine" varies widely among all makers.  For instance, Pelikan nibs are known to be somewhat wider than many other brands.  So an "extra fine" is closer to a "fine", although it may still be a tad wide for some people.  I have an extra fine pelikan nib, and it writes just fine for me, noticeably thinner line than most of my mediums.  If you buy a Japanese fountain pen with a fine nib, you then begin to understand what "fine" really means!  If you are trying to figure out whether to buy a fine or a medium in a particular brand, then forums like the Fountain Pen Network (FPN) are a great resource, because fountain pen fanatice there are happy to debate the width of a nib all day long for you!

As for the steel nibs that we get with our kits, realize that these are cheap nibs.  There is a decent amount of inconsistency among them.  Probably the best approach is to buy a bunch of them, and try them out until you find a nice one.  You can make improvements with some conditioning, like smoothing.  You can make even more improvements if you step up to grinding your own nibs (a step I haven't taken).  The point is seizing control of the final product back from the manufacturer.  If you grind your own nibs, you have much more control over the final product.  And after all, the important thing is how our pens write!  Right?

Scott.


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## ed4copies (Oct 26, 2007)

Scott,

One of my favorite answers is "yes, but..."

For years, as I have sold fountain pens, I have assumed that one "kit nib" was the same as the next (from the same "kit style").  So, if someone says, "I like that nib", I was good to go with the "Jr Gent medium".  What I am trying to tie down in this thread is the appearance of having been incorrect in my assumption.  We need to identify the EXACT nib that the customer likes and sell IT with the pen.  NOT just a "Jr. Gent medium- but this specific JR. Gent medium!!"

This is what I am attempting to learn, here.

Confused yet?????  I am!!


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## DCBluesman (Oct 26, 2007)

Ed -  You'd better believe the nibs vary even with the "big boys".  Having collected pens for over 30 years I can confidently tell you that if I find a new pen and like writing with it I will NOT let the store give me a different one.  I did that twice - once with a Namiki and once with a Montblanc.  Both pens ended up going back because the nibs just didn't write the same.

Variance among the kit nibs is a bit worse to a lot worse.  Obviously the QC is less on the kit nibs.

As for what your customer wants when he asks for a "fine" tip depends on whose pens he writes with.  The American and European sizes typically run slightly fatter than their Asian counterparts.  For the nibs I have made, there is a standard...sorry, but it's metric.

Fine:  
Tip: 0.6 mm  Line: 0.3 to 0.5 mm

Medium:
Tip: 0.8 mm  Line:  0.5 to 0.7 mm

Broad:
Tip: 1.0 mm  Line 0.7 to 0.9 mm

Different line widths are available through adjustments and grinding.


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## Narwhale (Oct 26, 2007)

Let me throw my pennies worth in.
The steel nibs we get on kits vary a lot in their writting charateristics.  
Try half a dozen of them and see for your self.  The nib width is different, the nib tip writing surface, the slot width in the nib, the volume of ink feeding the nib , etc are all slightly different from each other.
Hate to say it, but I think each nib should be tried out with good ink and paper and then corrected and fine tuned to produce a good writting pen.  Several lines written with the tip documenting the pen materails and workmanship shows the client what the writting characteristics are for that nib and pen.  
After you have done this for several nibs, you can actually show the client the differences between them and let them choose what they want.
Rich S.


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## ed4copies (Oct 26, 2007)

This hobby never ceases to evolve.

Back to school.

Thanks everyone!!!!


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## les-smith (Oct 26, 2007)

I hear you Ed.  I've got two things on my mind after reading all this:

 1) I'm reading up on grinding my own nibs
 2) I need to by some better nibs of various makers to see what I like.

Time to sell a pen so I can buy more stuff.  Man!


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## gerryr (Oct 26, 2007)

Someone asked what I used to grind the nib.  I hesitate to answer because since I am only a beginner at this, I may yet change how I do it and the way I did was probably more than a little dangerous, not for me, for the nib.  I needed a 14K or 18K fine nib for a customer buying a Jr. Statesman and this was the only way to get one.  Try this at your own risk.  I used a Dremel with a little gray colored wheel that came with it when I bought the kit.  That did the initial work, the rest was done with a fine diamond hone, MM and water.


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## PenWorks (Oct 26, 2007)

Once you write with a good cursive italic, italic or stub, it's hard to go back to another nib, other than a fine.  

JMO, not necessarily the views of this board or any other board or the world in general


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## gerryr (Oct 26, 2007)

> _Originally posted by PenWorks_
> 
> Once you write with a good cursive italic, italic or stub, it's hard to go back to another nib, other than a fine.
> 
> JMO, not necessarily the views of this board or any other board or the world in general



Or anyone in particular either.


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## Narwhale (Oct 26, 2007)

from Penworks  "Once you write with a good cursive italic, italic or stub, it's hard to go back to another nib, other than a fine."

+3
Completley true for me also.


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