# Kramer's Best Antique Improver



## mbroberg (Jul 14, 2009)

Has anyone ever used this product?

http://www.kramerize.com/natural_way.htm

If so, what is your opinion of it as a finish for a pen?

The product is advertised as being primaily for the restoration of antique finishes but it can also be used as a final finish on new wood.  It is suppoed to penetrate and protect against mositure and skin oils.

I personally like the look and feel of wood.  My favorite finish to use on a wood pen is padding shellac (French Polish).  Shellac will break down over time due to constant contact with oils and acids from skin, chemicals in hand creams, etc.  Therefore, unless the pen I have made has a long nib that will be held while being used I opt for the durability off a Plexi-Tone finish.  I don't like the plastic look and feel of Plexi-Tone or CA.  I'm just wondering if this stuff is a viable option for a pen finish.

Thanks,
Mike


----------



## leehljp (Jul 14, 2009)

Finishes such as this and waxes along with polishes work well IF consideration is taken for its purpose and a pen's use.

Here is the problem: Our heritage use of finishes, waxes and polishes! Before modern day finishes like Polyurethane, or other clear/translucent finishes including certain varnishes, shellacs and lacquers, - polishes, waxes and oils were used to provide protective finishes. So far, so good on this aspect of finishes.

However, WOOD finishes as a protectant was cleaned and polished at least weekly, usually every other day and in some cases daily. People with enough wealth to buy fine furniture with oil, wax and polish finishes had servants/miads that cleaned, waxed and polished these items on a REGULAR basis. For people who had fine furniture but did not have servants, before the advent of the working mom/wife, the wife (usually) cleaned and waxed at least weekly. 

Because most of us on this forum are men, we give no thought to what our moms did (or maids) for upkeep on fine furniture. Instead, we only remember the fine wood feel of polished, waxed, oiled wood.

Now to get to pens - Pens are in contact with acidic human oils far more than furniture. And we are not used to the ritual cleaning that went on with the fine furniture that we grew up with. Pens will need far more cleaning than furniture because of the nature of where the pen is stored and how it is used.

If that consideration is taken into account and the user is willing to give that kind of daily considerations to the upkeep of the pen, then it should work fine. I noticed that while the maker claims it is different than other finishes, the wood is still wood and as you mentioned the acidic hands will be in touch with the wood. In this case - think of kitchen cabinets that have been well used. Dirt and grime build up on the corners and have to be cleaned. In pens that leave the grain exposed even though properly oiled, waxed, finished, the dirt will still get into the pores and it still will have to be cleaned regularly IMO.

I love tung oil finished wood. But on a pen, it would require plenty of cleaning, not to mention what it might do to a white shirt on a hot humid day.


----------



## ldb2000 (Jul 14, 2009)

What Hank said :good::good::good:


----------



## mbroberg (Jul 14, 2009)

Thanks Hank, for taking the time to provide such a detailed, reasoned answer.  I appriciate it.
Mike


----------



## RussFairfield (Jul 15, 2009)

That is a polite way of saying there are two types of finishes - a durable film on the wood, and a temporary one that is replaced by our own dirt.


----------



## Rifleman1776 (Jul 15, 2009)

I bought some on the recommendation of a friend who knows Kramer personally. He claims it is the greatest thing since sliced bread. Wrong! At almost $15.00 for 8 oz. bottle, I consider it a total waste of money. To use requires reading a 16 page instruction manual. That alone should tell you something about the product. I tested fairly on a piece of furniture that had some water damage to the finish. Over time, I applied many-many times. There is absolutely no noticeable change, much less improvement, in the finish.
Basically, it is bees wax dissolved in turpentine. Kramer claims there are other ingredients in it and he is probably telling the truth. But, IMHO, wuthless stuff. I would say to avoid for any use, pens or otherwise.


----------



## leehljp (Jul 15, 2009)

RussFairfield said:


> That is a polite way of saying there are two types of finishes - a durable film on the wood, and a temporary one that is replaced by our own dirt.



Yes it is! :biggrin: But that wasn't the reason for writing what I did. From being in the "people" business, I have learned that until a fundamental principle is understood, simple answers and questions continue to be MISunderstood.

Most people do not realize why Tung Oil, Waxes, Polishes work great on fine wood furniture, but not on the same wood on pens. "Mother" is not there to polish/wax/wipe/clean it daily! THAT is the difference.


----------



## dogcatcher (Jul 15, 2009)

I must be in the wrong part of the world, my customers both men and women do not care for acrylic or a high shine.  If I do a CA finish I can plan on keeping it for a long time before it finally moves.  Now a finish like on the old gunstocks will sell pretty quick.  They take a lot of work but the end result is what I can sell.  Using Minwax Antique Oil, True Oil or Velvit with several coats and I will have a seller.  Nothing beats a mesquite pen with True Oil finish in my area.


----------



## ngeb528 (Jul 16, 2009)

leehljp said:


> Most people do not realize why Tung Oil, Waxes, Polishes work great on fine wood furniture, but not on the same wood on pens. "Mother" is not there to polish/wax/wipe/clean it daily! THAT is the difference.


 
Thanks, Hank.  I started out using friction polish on pens and things.  Switched to CA after becoming a member on IAP.  I never really thought about why the friction polish wasn't holding up.  
Your explaination gave me a "duh" moment when the light bulb went on.  I used to help my mother cleaning and polishing the wood furniture.  She's going to be so ashamed of me...lol.


----------



## bitshird (Jul 16, 2009)

dogcatcher said:


> I must be in the wrong part of the world, my customers both men and women do not care for acrylic or a high shine.  If I do a CA finish I can plan on keeping it for a long time before it finally moves.  Now a finish like on the old gunstocks will sell pretty quick.  They take a lot of work but the end result is what I can sell.  Using Minwax Antique Oil, True Oil or Velvit with several coats and I will have a seller.  Nothing beats a mesquite pen with True Oil finish in my area.



Also keep in mind that some woods will react differently to oil based finishes, the finish will hold up a bit longer, but it's hard to breat the nasty Plasticky acrylic finishes over a longer period of time.


----------



## dogcatcher (Jul 16, 2009)

bitshird said:


> Also keep in mind that some woods will react differently to oil based finishes, the finish will hold up a bit longer, but it's hard to breat the nasty Plasticky acrylic finishes over a longer period of time.



What is harder to beat is my customers that have used the pens for several years, as in 5 or more, that keep coming back for more pens that feel like REAL WOOD and not a plastic pen.


----------



## DCBluesman (Jul 16, 2009)

dogcatcher said:


> What is harder to beat is my customers that have used the pens for several years, as in 5 or more, that keep coming back for more pens that feel like REAL WOOD and not a plastic pen.


 
I appreciate your enthusiasm for what your loyal customers prefer, but please exhibit a little tolerance for those of use whose customers might prefer a nice high-gloss lacquered pen.  A lacquer finished pen can feel just as much like real wood.


----------



## RussFairfield (Jul 17, 2009)

Hank, finishing takes time, and a good finish takes more time. I remember the old instuctions for oil finishes on furniture. "Once a day for a month, once a week for a year, and once a month forever."  It worked, and the finishes were beautiful.

Now we want to slap it on and forget about it. Are pen turners any different??


----------



## dogcatcher (Jul 17, 2009)

RussFairfield said:


> Hank, finishing takes time, and a good finish takes more time. I remember the old instuctions for oil finishes on furniture. "Once a day for a month, once a week for a year, and once a month forever."  It worked, and the finishes were beautiful.
> 
> Now we want to slap it on and forget about it. Are pen turners any different??



This one is, I don't mind spending the extra time to do the finish that my customers like.  I use the same finishes on my game calls.  There is a difference to a good finish from Minwax Antique Oil finish and a CA finish.   Hunters tend to abuse their "toys" in the mud, snow and other rough weather a good durable finish inside and out is imperative.


----------



## mickr (Jul 26, 2009)

leehljp said:


> Finishes such as this and waxes along with polishes work well IF consideration is taken for its purpose and a pen's use.
> 
> Here is the problem: Our heritage use of finishes, waxes and polishes! Before modern day finishes like Polyurethane, or other clear/translucent finishes including certain varnishes, shellacs and lacquers, - polishes, waxes and oils were used to provide protective finishes. So far, so good on this aspect of finishes.
> 
> ...


 thanks for the interesting and well explained info here...and giving credit where credit was due..you are always interesting to read and KNOW YOUR STUFF...


----------



## mdburn_em (Jul 26, 2009)

Only problem I have with what Hank said is that some of us were boys at one time and we had mothers that did NOT like to dust and wax.  

That's what kids are for then, isn't it?


----------



## leehljp (Jul 26, 2009)

mdburn_em said:


> Only problem I have with what Hank said is that some of us were boys at one time and we had mothers that did NOT like to dust and wax.
> 
> That's what kids are for then, isn't it?



I was a GOOD  boy and didn't have to polish and wax the furniture as punishment! :biggrin: Now if you believe that . . . :wink: just ask my older sister that I fought with so much.


----------

