# You buy 'em books, they eat the covers ...



## cdcarter (Sep 3, 2007)

Maybe penturners.org is just an elite neighborhood, or maybe I've just gotten to be a snob, but I swear, I haven't been able to convince any of the local boys to even consider focusing on their finish. To a man, every one I know uses the cheapest platings, Hut friction polish and maybe a quick coat of caranuba or even bee's wax. 

But man, they're productive. Saw one local guy showing off a whole rack of maybe 30 Euros and a few cigars he knocked out in a weekend for an upcoming show, and I guarantee he sold them all. Hut finish and bee's wax. Even new in box they were dull, soon to be duller.

Had a conversation with one of the local experts yesterday about it. He's never tried anything but friction polish. "I just tell customers it's like fine furniture and they need to polish it up once in a while," he says. Sands to 400, hits a lick with the Hut and it's off to the show.

By contrast, my "productivity" has declined significantly. I buy the high-end kits. Use better wood. The finish isn't an afterthought, and if it doesn't come out just right, I do it again. I keep struggling with the question of quality vs. quantity. Having started down the quality road, I'd rather quit than start churning out the junk I see.

I've told every one of these fellows about IAP, written down the name of the web site and given it to them, described the videos and tutorials in the library, showed them my pens. 

Feel like a ghost. Oh well... end of rant.


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## mick (Sep 3, 2007)

Carl, are you talking about guys in a local turning club? I'd like to meet some of y'all one day. I'd about given up on any pen turners in the area except for a couple of the guys at our local Wood Craft. I did get one of them to at least try a CA finish after seeing some of my pens.
 I'm like you though, my productivity has gone down as my quality goes up. I don't assemble a pen unless I'm satisified with a finish, although Connie tells me I'm my own worst critic.
 Shoot me an email if you'd like. I'd like to get together with a few local turners sometime. Swap idea, shoot the breeze whatever....lol.


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## Kalai (Sep 3, 2007)

Hi Carl, I know what you are talking about, it is the same over here in Hawaii but mostly with bowls,I have been selling my turnings on a large scale to galleries for over 23 years,I make about 6000 bowls a year(all high quality), because here in Hawaii woodturned bowls are a hot item, like the Hawaiian Calabash bowl, there are many people who turn bowls and sell them but only a few that do high quality bowls, like your pens.  There will allways be those who "choose" to make high quality products and those who Choose to make just quality products.  I can tell you though that quality will last alot longer and is sought after by those who know quality, maybe if you were to educate the buyer then they might see the difference and want to go with the high quality.  Well I hope this makes sence.  Aloha.

Chris
Kalai[]


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## low_48 (Sep 3, 2007)

I make about 6000 bowls a year(all high quality),

Chris, you must be a machine!!!!!!! That's more than 1.5 bowls an hour (10 hour day), 365 days a year! You must have someone cutting blanks because when would you have time to do that? They must be a hot item, congratulations to you.


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## Fred (Sep 3, 2007)

Like Chris says above in his post that quality will last ... HE IS DEFINITELY RIGHT! Wait a bit and see who is still selling pens made to lower standards ... You with quality vs Them with none! I bet you see them falling out of the local picture more and more as time goes on and THEIR products fail.

Quality costs more naturally and the customer get what they pay for.

Continue to be your own worse critic and see if you don't have a far better product than the dudes that could care less and only worry about how many they sold. DO NOT SELL YOURSELF SHORT ... E V E R!


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## maxwell_smart007 (Sep 3, 2007)

Show 'em your pens...

If that doesn't work, then set up a booth right beside them and show them what higher priced plating, and better finishing will do at a sale...


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## LEAP (Sep 3, 2007)

Carl, you can't protect people from themselves, only take advantage of their lack of quality. When I was building my home I got estimates from a couple different companies to install custom oak stairs and railings. They varied considerably and when I checked the work of the two companies I could see why. I picked the much more expensive company and considered it a bargain when I saw the finished product. The result was everyone who saw the stairs wanted to know who I had them built by and they got a lot of word of mouth buisness. I'm sure the same thing will apply to your pens. Show the customers what real quality is, the results will be more sales.


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## cdcarter (Sep 3, 2007)

One thing I was hoping for was to flush out some other local guys who care about quality, and it worked. My work doesn't compare to yours, and you've been at it a lot longer. Be warned: I plan to hound you to teach me to do a celtic knot!


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## Hosspen (Sep 3, 2007)

I don't think it is being a snob when you are doing the best you can to improve your product and others choose to stay on the easy track. That is their perogative but in the long run you will be much better off and not have to worry about unsatisfied customers nearly as much as they. Keep on Turning and Learning! []


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## Texatdurango (Sep 3, 2007)

> _Originally posted by Kalai_
> <br />....I make about 6000 bowls a year(all high quality)...



Chris, Chris, Chris.... 6,000 a year? [:0][:0][:0]  Could you share your secret how you turn over 16 high quality bowls every day of the year?

I'm just getting into bowls and could use some pointers, not that speed will be a concern but you've got to have some tips! []


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## leehljp (Sep 3, 2007)

This is one of my pet peeves.

To me, it is a total lack of understanding, ignorance and plain laziness to skimp on the finish. In flat work, I have seen people put in hours in building a piece of furniture that looks great until the finish stage. Then they put in 2 hours on the finish to get it done. Finishing stages of furniture or pens should have as much time devoted to it as it took up to that point. I usually figure for flat work time - 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 - equal time spent on planing and cutting; fitting and constructing; finishing. For me with pens - I roughly figure on 1/2 1/2 - equal time spent getting <b>to</b> the finish stage as <b>on</b> the finish stage.

A pen (and flat work) usually sells based on its presentation! You can have a deceptive presentation with the HUT and bees wax. I admire the guys who use lacquer and wait 48 hours to 5 days for it to cure before finishing by buffing or what ever it takes. I don't mind using oil and wax as the finish, but there is a correct way to do it so that the finish is not just on the outside but rubbed into the wood and a part of the wood. The time spent on finishing shows up after a week. Cheap finishes say to the buyer "I got you sucker," and that also tells me the character of the maker. 

I will pay more to someone I can trust than a cheaper price from someone that can't be trusted. If I can't afford the higher price, I don't buy.


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## mrcook4570 (Sep 3, 2007)

I have done a couple of demos at my local club.  They are all impressed by the finished product, but the common theme that I hear from them is "that finish is too much work".  While I agree that my CA finish technique does require a bit of elbow grease, it certainly is not time consuming at 10 minutes.  Too many other turners are just plain lazy.

Even at all the shows I have done, I have yet to see another turner with a decent finish, and most don't even have a good fit or smooth surfaces.  Not that I'm complaining, because the other turners help boost my sales []


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## Randy_ (Sep 3, 2007)

Carl:

I'll bet those friends of yours don't get much repeat business??

Other thing you have to remember is that not every one wants or can afford a Mercedes......lots of folks driving Fords.  If you want to sell a better quality of pen, you need to find customers who are looking for better quality pens.  If I were you, I would buy one of those cheap pens and use it for a while until it starts to wear out.  Then when a potential customer ask why he/she should buy your more expensive pen, show them what the "economy" pen looks like after a couple of months of use.


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## Kalai (Sep 4, 2007)

Hey Richard and George, I posted a thing about the 6000 bowls in "other things we make" category.  And Carl I like Randy's idea about getting a pen from the other guy and show people the difference, aloha to all.[]

Chris[^] 
Kalai[]


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## Randy_ (Sep 4, 2007)

> _Originally posted by low_48_
> <br />I make about 6000 bowls a year(all high quality),
> 
> Chris, you must be a machine!!!!!!! That's more than 1.5 bowls an hour (10 hour day), 365 days a year! You must have someone cutting blanks because when would you have time to do that? They must be a hot item, congratulations to you.



If you assume a more normal 40 hour work week and 2 weeks of vacation,it actually works out to 3 bowls per hour and maybe even a little more if you throw in a few holidays off.  I'm kinda guessing that this is more than a one man shop.


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## Carver238 (Sep 4, 2007)

Hi Carl,
    I am on your side with this.  I turned several pens this week end and two I can not turn over to the buyer.  I am not satified with them.  So, one I will turn a new pen and the other needs more work on the finish.  I am also like you, wanting to know and how to do some of the segmenting pens.
   Bill


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## gwilki (Sep 4, 2007)

I can't agree more with those who will not market anything but high quality - long lasting finishes. However, there are times when that is not what the client wants. I did a recent set where the client wanted oak, and oak with a finish that would allow the wood to take on a patina from use over the years. (She showed me a naptkin ring as an example.) Using a CA/BLO finish would not have met the client's expectations. Neither would the lacquer finish that I frequently use. I went with a cellulose sanding sealer, following by EEE and restorer's wax. I know that this finish will not keep its lustre, but that is what the client ordered.


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## BigguyZ (Sep 4, 2007)

I started out using HUT or Crystal Coat, now I'm using CA.  But what do you do for a long-lasting protective finish is the customer wants a matte finish?  

Also, I started out buying only what Woodcraft or Rockler had on sale.  Now I've been doing more and more of the more durable platings, as everyone's arguments against the cheaper kits have definitely swayed me.


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## fernhills (Sep 4, 2007)

Hi,i am just starting out about 20 pens so far in a couple of months,i did the C/A thing didn`t take long,wasn`t that hard.I am doing thr FP then wax,To me thats harder,it takes me about an 1 1/2 hrs. to go through all the steps,the finish looks real good and every one comments on how nice they feel and look.I am somewhat confused as to what directions to proceed to garner top quality work. Carl


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## cdcarter (Sep 4, 2007)

You can add a coat or two of a low-gloss lacquer.



> _Originally posted by BigguyZ_
> <br />I started out using HUT or Crystal Coat, now I'm using CA.  But what do you do for a long-lasting protective finish is the customer wants a matte finish?
> 
> Also, I started out buying only what Woodcraft or Rockler had on sale.  Now I've been doing more and more of the more durable platings, as everyone's arguments against the cheaper kits have definitely swayed me.


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## leehljp (Sep 4, 2007)

> _Originally posted by BigguyZ_
> <br /> But what do you do for a long-lasting protective finish is the customer wants a matte finish?



I have not done this on a pen, but making a matt finish is not that hard to do. I have had matt finishes on a pen with CA but always carried it to the shine level. For a final finish in CA, wet sand by hand with 600 - 800 or 1000. Experiment with this until you find what works best for you. But you should have a very smooth but matt finish.

I have noticed minor "spots" on a CA finished pen and then used 800 to knock of the spot. It also dulled the finish. Feels smooth and is not glossy. Sand gently.


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## leehljp (Sep 4, 2007)

> _Originally posted by fernhills_
> <br />Hi,i am just starting out about 20 pens so far in a couple of months,i did the C/A thing didn`t take long,wasn`t that hard.I am doing thr FP then wax,To me thats harder,it takes me about an 1 1/2 hrs. to go through all the steps,the finish looks real good and every one comments on how nice they feel and look.I am somewhat confused as to what directions to proceed to garner top quality work. Carl



Practice, and lots of it. Look at some of the quality work that you want to make, compare it to yours and observe what is the difference. You may notice two or three differences, or maybe just one. Go to work on that difference. 

Is it the fittings? What tools do you use for trimming? Can you make it better with a different tool or with what you already have?

Is it the finish? Sanding marks on the wood showing through? Scratches in the finish itself?

Read up on how people do theirs. There are several tutorials available on this forum. Above all, you must have the desire and You have that! Be patient, experiment, practice and keep the goals high and it will come!


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## BigguyZ (Sep 4, 2007)

> _Originally posted by leehljp_
> <br />
> 
> 
> ...



That makes sense, but another aspect of it is having a close-to-the wood look.  Maybe I could do a CA finish that isn't as thick as some seem to be, as well as just stopping the sanding process earlier...  Bah!  So much experimentation to do, so little time...


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## dbriski (Sep 4, 2007)

I was thinking the same line as Randy with a twist.  Make 2 24k gold friction finish pens, and 2 TiGold CA finish pens (same wood if possible).  Then Carry one of each type around and use it until it wears off.  Then make a stand showing New (the unused one) and X months of use showing the used ones.  And put some writing and such about Low quality finish/plating vs High quality.   This way you are informing the buyer and not directly slaming competition.


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## wizical (Sep 4, 2007)

I have to agree with Carl on this one;  I try to be productive, but will not sell a pen unless it is perfect.  

But I have to disagree on the finish though.  I use Woodturners finish and wax, I have to tell you, the pens that I have made from 6 months ago still have their shine on them.  I have seen CA finish on a pen, they look shiny, but you are covering up the part that everyone here worked so hard on to make.  you add an extra layer to the pen that makes in feel weird and most clients of mine do not like it.  they rather feel the wood in there hands than look at the CA Shine.  

everyone here makes exceptional work, so lets keep it up,

this is my two cents


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## cdcarter (Sep 4, 2007)

> _Originally posted by wizical_
> <br />...you add an extra layer to the pen that makes in feel weird and most clients of mine do not like it.  they rather feel the wood in there hands than look at the CA Shine.



Not necessarily. I've seen (and done) some that come off almost like a plastic coating, but it depends on the method, number of coats etc. Lately, I've been using Fred Munday's method 

http://content.penturners.org/articles/2004/ca-blo.pdf

and am pleased with it so far. I believe the ca coat is thinner, more diluted with blo. I don't know how this affects durability, so I'm putting a coat or two of lacquer on top anyway. But this gives me as "woody" a feel as any friction polish I've used.

That said, I must say I have some Mylands finishes that have been holding up very well. I just have less confidence in them.


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## wizical (Sep 4, 2007)

all finishes dull over time.  another pen maker showed me his pen with CA on it and it didnt have any shine to it.  I was not impressed, his newer stuff had that shine, but I think over time, everything loses it shine.  Im not disregarding any techniques, but if something works for me, im not changing it.  thanks


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## cdcarter (Sep 5, 2007)

> _Originally posted by wizical_
> <br />all finishes dull over time.  another pen maker showed me his pen with CA on it and it didnt have any shine to it.



Not all ca or ca/blo finishes are created equal. Methods are all over the map, and they produce very different effects and finishes. I did (and, unfortunately, sold) one recently where I'd polished too aggressively and there wasn't enough CA to hold, so it went dull. (I refinished and mailed back to him today.)

CA finishes are a little trickier to do, and as a result, you'll see less consistency among those who are still figuring it out. At any rate, I'm now using a couple of coats of lacquer on top of my CA, so my current finishes shouldn't be going anywhere.


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