# Need Help With Camera Choice



## Wright

Right now I have a Casio Exilim digital camera. It is small easy to use for family pictures. More or less it is a point and click camera. Most all settings are automatic. I would like a camera that I can adjust like f stop, zoom and white light. Something that a novice like myself can learn and is fairly easy to use. Price range, would like to stay $300 or less. I will be able to make better pen photos and since I have made my light tent I'm liking photography more! Any input will be greatly appreciated.


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## edstreet

In the SLR world:

The camera BODY is only used to store the image thus sensor size is the #1 feature you need. Manual mode is where it's at.  The real magic happens in the lens. I use a 50mm 1:1 macro lens and have a digital rebel kiss.  As for the brand goes, well that really does not matter other than the 2 things I mentioned.  If you go for cheap then do not skimp on the lens.  It is better to have a cheap body and expensive glass than the other way around.

Yes you have other modes like Av, Tv and bulb you can use.  Of those Av/Tv is the more important ones which you can start out learning on.


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## edstreet

Oh forgot the zoom.  Here is where you will have many arguments with but the facts remains, yes you can even verify that with the MTF charts.  Zoom lens will not yield you the same image quality as a good prime lens.  However, a very high quality zoom lens WILL yield you the same image quality but you are going to pay for it and pay dearly for it to.  All things, price, being equal get a prime lens that will match the target size.  Prime being non-zoom, i.e. fixed as in 50mm.

The lens that I use is a sigma 50mm 1:1 macro lens. cost is around $350 at B&H.


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## brownsfn2

I totally agree that the lens is almost everything.  I have used the "L" series lenses from canon and I use an 100MM prime lens as my go to lens.  I get much better quality out of that lens than any other one I have.  It is actually my wife's gear so when she is using it I have to use a non "L" lens and I really do notice a difference in sharpness.  The 100mm lens is about $1000.

As for the body I do not notice too much difference with the 100mm lens on the rebel T1i that she has as opposed to the brand new Canon 7d that she has.  The T1i was like $600 and the 7d is like $1600.  Big difference in price but for taking pictures of small still objects in a light box I have not noticed too much of a difference.  There are a lot more adjustable features on the 7d that are not on the T1i.  With the T1i I can still adjust exposure, aperture, and lighting.

If you want to stay around $300 then what I would do is look for an older Canon SLR body on Craig's list or Ebay.  I am not sure if that price is possible but you might find something.  Look at their digital rebel line.  They are pretty affordable.  Then to start out you might want to consider the EF 50mm f/1.8 lens from Canon.  It is around $100 and I think for the price gets really good quality.  Not as good as an "L" series but definitely good quality.  It is cheap because it is plastic and the focus is not the greatest.  You will need to manually focus it.

Also Canon sells refurbs on their website.    This was the cheapest I saw:

Canon Direct Store- EOS Rebel T3 Black EF-S 18-55mm IS II Lens Kit 

Good luck.  If you invest in an SLR you will not be unhappy.  Photography becomes a lot more fun and it keeps your wife out of the shop if you buy it as a gift for her.


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## Dave Turner

Your $300 budget will limit you to a camera with a small sensor. I'm partial to the Canon line of cameras. You could buy a used Canon SX40 HS (reviewed here) for about $300 on eBay. This will give you full manual control and a pretty nice camera to learn photography. It should also improve your pen photos over your Casio.

The camera sensor size is a primary factor in the quality / flexibility of your camera. If you can swing a little more money, you can move up to an SLR. The diagonal sensor size of most entry level SLRs is about 27mm. This compares to 7 mm for your Casio or the above SX40. Having a larger sensor, in addition to its greater light gathering ability, lets you use larger diameter optics. This in turn gives you greater control over depth-of-field and increased sharpness over the tiny point and shoot lenses. Any of the Canon Rebel line would work fine for you. The T3 is the lowest price current model ($459 new with 18-55mm zoom lens). Price used SLR's on eBay.

In your money situation, I'd definitely go with the standard kit zoom lens. While a fixed focus lens will give you a slightly sharper image for your pen photographs, it will significantly limit you when using your camera for general photos, which is what I presume most of your pictures will be. Unless you are significantly cropping your shots, you'll be hard pressed to see any differences  between zoom and prime lens when you post your shots on the web in reduced size.  The nice thing about SLRs is that when money allows, you can always buy additional lenses to increase your capabilities. I've had great luck buying used camera equipment through eBay.


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## Wright

Thanks Ed and Ron, very informative information. After looking, I like the Rebel like Ed has and as I get more knowledge, buy the better lens later.


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## Wright

There's another option Dave.


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## Haynie

the canon powershot or Nikon Cool Pix will suit your needs at that cost level. Just go to a wally world or best buy to get a feel for which you like.  All of these cameras are easy to use.  I am a Nikon guy myself because I find their cameras to be intuitive.  Others think the same about Canon etc...  For what you want there are a LOT of options out there.  No need to break the bank.

edstreet:  you blew his budget with the lens, add another couple hundred for an old crap DSLR body and you are way over his means.

Yes sensor size is important but for pen pics and web posting there is no need to get that technical.  Heck if it were I would be using my larger cameras for everything.  But for web posting, family snaps, and pen pics I am not going to whip out the Sinar, or even the DSLR, the cool pix does a perfectly good job.


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## Wright

Haynie, what size MM lens does the cannon and Nikon have?


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## Haynie

MM Lens?  Not familiar with the abbreviation. 

In your price range the point and shoot cameras come with pretty standard zoom focal lengths.


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## Wright

Sorry, shows you how much I know(HA). Diagonal sensor size I think is what I meant.


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## Haynie

Sensor measurements are based on the old 35mm frame size.  In your price point you're not going to get the larger sensors but they will be just fine for what you said you were doing.  Yes it is important but not as important as others are making it sound.  My older DSLR does not have a full sized sensor and I have cranked out some very large enlargements that you can count blades of grass on.  In that case lenses are what matter.  Point and Shoot lenses as long as you get a good branded camera will do just fine for pen close ups.

What else are you planning to use the camera for?

I shoot cameras that range in size from 8x10 down to digital P&S.  they are all tools and I choose the one that fits the job.  Another person who would be a lot of help would be user name Moke.  He used to own a camera shop.


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## glycerine

Agree with Canon Powershot or Nikon CoolPix.  IF you are wanting to stay under $300, I'd say any SLR is out the window...


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## glycerine

Haynie said:


> MM Lens? Not familiar with the abbreviation.
> 
> In your price range the point and shoot cameras come with pretty standard zoom focal lengths.


 
Yeah, I think the zoom is what he meant.  They will vary as there are different models of each...


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## brownsfn2

I think you get a few things with a large sensor:

1. more control over lighting
2. more room to crop photos
3. more PPI or pixels per inch which will help with sharpness

Number 3 probably does not matter too much unless you are going to aggressively crop a photo or print posters of your pens.

Of course this is just my amateur opinion.  I in no way claim to be a photographer. 

My wife is a good one though and she has taken some really good pictures with her point and shoot.


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## edstreet

KEH is a VERY good outfit. They do new and used sales plus repair. If you get bad equipment they will fix it or send you another one. The warranty period is quite good to.

Canon Digital KISS X SILVER (JAPAN REBEL XTI) 10.1 MEGAPIXEL WITH 18-55 II USM, BATTERY & CHARGER (CF CARD ), DIGITAL SLR INTERCHANGEABLE LENS CAMERA OUTFIT - KEH.com

This is a digital kiss X, it's the same body that I use.  The lens included does reach to 55mm but don't expect superb quality photo's with that lens. Rule of thumb on lens like this is split the difference in the zoom and that is the best/sharpest setting.

Not bad for $340

In regards to sensor size, pixels per inch and light:

*) Pixel count is not based on dimension of the sensor.
*) Pixel pitch determines the distance between pixels.
*) If the pixel count is the same, the PPI on a larger sensor will be lower than a smaller sensor.
Confused yet?


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## edstreet

Oh forgot one.  

Sigma 50mm f/2.8 EX DG Macro Autofocus Lens for Canon EOS 346101

This is the lens that I use. $369.  Also comes in 70mm, 105mm and 150mm as well but your distance to subject would be doubled if using the 105mm.  Any will work good.

70mm version Sigma 70mm f/2.8 EX DG Macro AF Lens for Canon EOS 270101 B&H  $499

105m version Sigma 105mm f/2.8 EX DG OS Macro Lens for Canon EOS Cameras $769

And 150mm version Sigma 150mm f/2.8 EX DG OS HSM APO Macro Lens (For Canon) 106101 $1,055

Now the brand one is here. http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/12145-GREY/Canon_2537A003_50mm_f_2_5_Compact_Macro.html it's $269. Also very good.


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## Wright

The boss just told me we could go to $500 + or - a few dollars. She loves photography also and is better at it than I am. Wow, Ed I am confused. With the new budget, what about the Cannon EOS Rebel T-3? By the way, I've seen pen photos that you guys have posted and they are excellent!! I would be happy if mine could be half that good!!


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## Dave Turner

If you both like photography, then an SLR would be a worthwhile investment. I'm in the Canon camp, although the Nikon camp should be just as nice. The T3 is a very nice camera. I bought the T3i, mainly for its better movie capabilities.

The kit lens that comes with the T3 is a basic 18-55mm zoom of medium quality. You can buy/sell this on eBay for a little less than $100. It would be a great starter lens to use while you get to know the camera. Then you can later decide if you want to add or replace it with something else. I bought my camera without a lens and purchased a Canon EF-S 18-135mm for $230 on eBay. I love this lens. It's my everyday walk-around lens and covers the zoom range I need. (I use the wider angles much more than telephoto). You can see some of pictures I took with this lens here. I've had my camera and lens for about 5 months now.  You can always add a "nifty fifty" Canon 50mm f 1.8 lens for less than $100 on eBay. This would be a nice lens for pen shots and portrait work.


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## Haynie

No matter how much you can afford do not buy a camera without putting your hands on it first and compare.  Get out and touch them, grope and get to know them.  Since the boss in on it now what is she looking to shoot?

I'm a Nikon guy so say go that direction but ultimately how the camera feels to you is the most important thing.


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## Wright

Outstanding Dave!!! Those are some beautiful pictures! My wife and I like the Cannon and that is probably the way we will go. Soon as I get it look for some pens that I'll post with it.


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## edstreet

Dave Turner said:


> You can always add a "nifty fifty" Canon 50mm f 1.8 lens for less than $100 on eBay. This would be a nice lens for pen shots and portrait work.



Amen to that.  Most many not want/need the epic macro shot that I take and a standard 50mm should suffice well.


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## Wright

Thanks Ed...... The photos you took of the polymer clay pen is outstanding!


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## Sylvanite

Haynie said:


> No matter how much you can afford do not buy a camera without putting your hands on it first and compare.  Get out and touch them, grope and get to know them.


That's good advice.  You definitely want a camera that fits your hands.  Back when I was looking to buy my first SLR (well, my first was an old Practina that orginally belonged to my grandfather - but the first one I purchased), I was originally leaning towards Olympus based on reviews, but then I went to a camera store and held one.  It was uncomfortably small in my hands.  I chose a Canon AE-1 instead and have used the Canon line ever since.

The best long-term advice I heard was to pick a lens series, invest in good glass and update camera bodies when desired.  Body features, and sensor quality continually advance, but a good lens will last a lifetime.

Canon and Nikon are the two biggest lens series, and you can't really go wrong with either.  There are several good aftermarket lens manufacturers for both mounts as well.

Don't get hung up on sensor size or resolution.  Most consumer DSLRs use an APS-C size sensor (typically around 28mm).  Although they accept lenses made for 35mm cameras, the smaller sensor yields a narrower field-of-view.  Sensor quality, however, is more important than size (physical or number of pixels).  A small sensor also allows you to get by with a cheaper lens.

Also, don't worry too much about your first lens, especially if you're taking photos to display on a computer.  Even the mediocre kit lens supplied with most cameras will do just fine for that.  Actually, it does quite well for most uses.  I know a woman who takes great photos with a stock Canon EOS Rebel (an older model).  She does much better than most people can with fancier, more expensive cameras.

As an old photography instructor once told me, what's behind the camera is much more important than what's inside it.

I hope that helps,
Eric


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## Wright

Thanks Eric, all this info I am gathering is very valuable. I feel very comfortable going with the Cannon. People are so helpful, I do appreciate. Thanks so much.


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## brownsfn2

Sylvanite said:


> Haynie said:
> 
> 
> 
> As an old photography instructor once told me, what's behind the camera is much more important than what's inside it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So True!  This is funny.  My wife always hears "That is a beautiful shot.  You must have a great camera!"  One time she responded "I hear you bake a great pie.  You must have a good Oven!"
Click to expand...


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## Wright

Pulled the trigger today and bought a Cannon EOS Rebel T-3 1100D. Reading manual from cover to cover and plan to practice with it tomorrow!!!  Christmas came early!


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## AKPenTurner

Congrats on the purchase!
I'm a Canon man myself, and would certainly have recommended you go that route. The Powershot is a great line of cameras for a good price, but if you want to get more into photography, the DSLR is the way to go. And the T3 is a good one to start on. From here on, you can work on investing in some quality glass. That's where you'll notice the improved quality, and you can always upgrade the body later on.


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## rizaydog

I have been debating a new camera purchase as well.  Lots of info here.  I have heard a lot of talk about sensor size in this post and elsewhere.  Someone mentioned earlier an entry level camera has something like 25mm sensor.  I have been researching camera's and I always see the sensors size as something like 15x23mm. This is an estimation. Im not sure if I have seen this exact number.

Anyway, what would be a good range for sensor size?


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## Dave Turner

While sensor size is an important factor (see details here), there are other considerations too. The total number of pixels determines how much cropping you can get away with before your pictures start degrading. I find that, unless you do big enlargements, anything above 8 to 10 megapixels is fine for me. The downside is that more pixels makes each pixel smaller and able to capture less light. Fewer pixels usually means better performance in low light situations, which is a very common situation. The newer CMOS sensors with backside illumination give the best low light performance.

I look at it as there being two categories, the small sensor cameras (point and shoots) and the larger sensor SLR cameras. They are just now coming out with a few smaller format non-SLR cameras that include the larger size sensors. I'm sure we'll see lots more of these in the next few years.


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## DSurette

A couple of years ago I bought a Nikon factory refurbished SLR camera from Cameta.  I have been more than happy with the camera.  It was like new with two lenses for a fraction of the cost of a new one.  I've taken thousands of pictures with it and have had no problems.  Look them up and see if they have anything that you might be interested in.  I think right now they are advertising a Nikon SLR with one lens for $374.00.


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## rizaydog

I looked at the website that you mentioned, Cameta. What would you guys think about a nikon d3000 with a Tamron 70-300mm 1:2 macro zoom lens?


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## edstreet

Tamron is not a bad lens choice.  The one you mentioned does have some limitations.  Anytime you have a variable f/stop on the lens is not good, the 4-5.6.  This would seriously limit your usage in lower light areas.  Sometimes I have had to use f/5 and larger, mostly outdoors.

the 1:2 macro mode is only available in the telephoto zoom so 180mm to 300mm, with a minimum distance of  37.4" (95 cm) from the subject.

So with some good proper lighting (like a mono-light) this is not a bad lens.  With my 1500ws mono-light I shoot with F/14 to F/22.

As for the nikon, it shows 10.2MP, so as I previous said the housing is just to store the images and the sensor so being 10.2 it's a good choice.


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## rizaydog

Thanks for your response.  So you think the camera is a fair choice but any lens with a variable f/stop isn't so good. I have been looking at other lenses and they either have variable f/stop, or a specific f/stop. Would it be better to get a lens with say a 2.8 or 3.5 f/stop? Is there one that you could recommend?
I am not sure if it matters but I shoot my turning photo's in a tent with 3 lights.


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## edstreet

The fixed stop lens is better quality lens and they allow you to do more setups without having to struggle with lighting.  The variable stop lens you can get good shots with them but you will forever be struggling with lights.  

3 lights for a tent?  what bulb wattage and type are you using?


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## randyrls

To join the thread;  
Anyone with a camera or other equipment of any kind should do a Google search for the instruction manual  in PDF form.  Every camera and other pieces of electronics has the instructions in PDF form on the  Manufacturers web site.  Save the file to your local hard drive.  With  the small size of the manuals they get hard to read and a PDF file can  be zoomed to a comfortable reading size and you won't lose it.


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## rizaydog

I think they are 50 watt halogen bulbs. They came with my tent.  They have 3 legs and have a swivel head so I can position them. I put on on each side and one on the top. Is that too many lights?


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## edstreet

To much light?  Nonsence, that's like money, good communication and some other things, you can never have to much.

I just learned about this.

Canon Recalls for Repair EOS Rebel T4i Digital Cameras Due to Risk of Allergic Reaction



> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
> August 14, 2012
> Release #12-246 	Firm's Recall Hotline: (855) 902-3277
> CPSC Recall Hotline: (800) 638-2772
> CPSC Media Contact: (301) 504-7908
> Canon Recalls for Repair EOS Rebel T4i Digital Cameras Due to Risk of Allergic Reaction
> 
> WASHINGTON, D.C. - The U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission, in cooperation with the firm named below, today announced a voluntary recall of the following consumer product. Consumers should stop using recalled products immediately unless otherwise instructed. It is illegal to resell or attempt to resell a recalled consumer product.
> 
> Name of Product: EOS Rebel T4i Digital SLR Cameras
> 
> Units: About 68,200
> 
> Importer: Canon U.S.A., Inc., of Lake Success, N.Y.
> 
> Hazard: A chemical used in the camera's rubber grips can result in a reaction that changes the grips from black to white and poses a risk of skin irritation to the consumer.
> 
> Incidents/Injuries: Canon U.S.A., Inc. has received one report of a consumer who developed a minor rash after contact with a surface where the camera had been.
> 
> Description: This recall involves EOS Rebel T4i digital SLR cameras with a 12-digit serial number that contain a second digit that is a "3" or "4" and a sixth digit that is a "1." Serial numbers are printed on the bottom of the camera. The Canon logo and the model name are printed on the front of the camera.
> 
> Sold at: B&H Photo, Best Buy and camera and mass merchandise stores nationwide and Amazon.com and other online retailers between June 2012 and July 2012 for between $850 and $1,200.
> 
> Manufactured in: Japan
> 
> Remedy: Consumers should immediately stop using the recalled cameras and contact Canon U.S.A. to have replacement rubber grips installed free of charge.
> 
> Consumer Contact: For additional information, contact the firm toll-free at (855) 902-3277 between 8 a.m. to midnight ET Monday through Friday, 10 a.m. to 8 p.m. ET Saturday, or visit the firm's website at Canon U.S.A., Inc.


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## Sylvanite

rizaydog said:


> ... any lens with a variable f/stop isn't so good. I have been looking at other lenses and they either have variable f/stop, or a specific f/stop. Would it be better to get a lens with say a 2.8 or 3.5 f/stop?



What exactly do you mean by "variable f-stop"?  I don't think I've ever seen an interchangable lens with a single fixed aperture.  Lenses are often labeled with the maximum aperture (lowest f-stop) supported.  Telephoto lenses typically have smaller maximum apertures than shorter focal length lenses.  Zoom lenses frequently have different maximum apertures at different focal lengths, so you'll see something like f3.5-5.6 in the lens designation.  That is not an indication of lens quality.

Maximum aperture is simply a measure of how much light the lens can pass.  Lower numbers represent "faster" lenses (for a given lighting situation, a lower f-stop will let you use a shorter exposure time).  Aperture, focal length, and distance to subject control depth-of-field.  In certain types of photography, such as sports photography, you want shallow depth-of-field, and stop-action (short exposure), so a lens with a large aperture is important.  For pen photograpy, however, one typically wants greater depth-of-field, so the wider apertures aren't necessary.  I almost always shoot pens at an aperture setting  of at least f8 (preferably f16 or more).

I hope that helps,
Eric


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