# Strait Dope on Nibs...



## rwbirt02

Hello to all,

  I am new to penturning and am still in the process of researching all information pertaining to turning pens.  I am interested in specializing with fountain pens, and want to target a higher end market...I understand that I will of course need to cater to a lower end market as well to make enough money to justify the time I will be spending with this new craft, but at the time have an immediate demand for a pen that is sellable to a corperate market that has some money to spend of their beautifully hand crafted pens.  

  So in this regard...I am trying to find out the strait dope on nibs.  I have been searching through previous posts to try to gain a better understanding of the different sizes, materials, makers, and varying quality from one nib to another...but am still mystified as to what is the best material that a nib is made out of in a "pen kit".  I am going to be selling pens in the $150-$500 range off the bat and want to know what is the best nib that is avaliable to me for my pens.  

  Any previous posts, links, or other pertinent information is greatly appreciated.


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## Johnathan

Before things get too carried away make sure you know enough to offer the best product you can. Also, if you can sell a pen make sure you know how to fix a pen. Problems happen and people will trust that you can make their pens as good as new. I would take some time practicing for a bit. Good luck![8D]


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## mrcook4570

> _Originally posted by rwbirt02_
> ...but am still mystified as to what is the best material that a nib is made out of in a "pen kit".  I am going to be selling pens in the $150-$500 range off the bat and want to know what is the best nib that is avaliable to me for my pens.



All of the nibs in pen kits are steel, with the exception of the limited edition statesman and limited edition emperor.  Those, I believe are 18k.  If you want an upgrade from the basic steel nib, email Anthony (Penworks) for info about 14k nibs for the baron/jr gent/jr statesman and the gent/statesman/emperor.  

As for $500 off the bat, good luck...and you may want to practice on a few first and learn how to get a finish worthy of that price tag.


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## rwbirt02

Not many people have responded thus far...I hope I haven't come off as being arrogant when stating the prices I intend to charge for pens at the outset of my venture.  I am confident that I can produce a pen worthy of these prices at the outset because of past experience working with a wide variety of finishing products and materials(both wood and metal).  I repair band instruments by defult, and work with all types of abbrassives on a daily basis...MicroMesh being one that I call on daily.  Once again at the risk of sounding arrogant...In my mind thus far, building the best pen possible is 99% what is seen in the minds eye-then the rest will fall into place using the best possible materials and techniques.  Nothing can replace a keen eye for quality, the rest as they say is childs play?  I will however temper the above statement by acknowledging that practice is always a crucial element in achieving the best possible results.  

  Questions still abound as to what is the best nib material though.  When I look at a Montgrappa, Sailor, Namiki or any other high end pen, and it has an 14kt or 18kt gold nib with platinum mask...Is the nib made from 14kt gold throughout and plated with platinum or is the nib made with a steel base metal plated with 14kt and platinum mask?  And are there nibs avaliable to us from our vendors that are of the same quality as those produced and sold in such pens on the market?

  Thanks for all replies.


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## gerryr

You really need to address these questions to Anthony, he's the resident expert on fountain pens.  There is a book that you should probably have, which will give you a wealth of information about the topic, Anthony knows the title.

As far as coming across as arrogant, yup, you did.


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## GregMuller

If possible please post a picture of your first $500 dollar sale. I would be interested in seeing it. So far the highest price gotten for a pen I know of was from BTBoone which was somewere in the $1000 range and was magnificant. I will be interested in seeing what sells in the range you are looking for. Good Luck.


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## ldimick

There was a thread here a few months back and I think it was one that Lou (DCBluesman) started. The premise was that it is very dificult to make a high end pen ($250+) when we are using kits. While the kits make nice pens it may be dificult to really get to the level you are referring to. Now, when you start to talk about the differences in nibs you sound like you are on the right track - moving beyond the kit world. 

IMHO, the nibs are not bad on the kits but they are no where near as good as on commercial pens. I suspect that we are lacking some sort of finishing process. I have a Namiki Vanishing Point that I was really disappointed in after reading about how great the nib was. I even told Anthony that it was no better than my Emperor nib. But after a couple more weeks I began to notice a drastic improvement in the smoothness. I think it was a combination in me learning it's nuances and it wearing to my hand. I have not had a kit nib go through that same transformation.

I don't beleive that Bruce uses any kit parts in his pens. He may use a nib holder.

Having said all of this I have to back up Gerry's post and suggest that you search for threads that have included input from Anthony, Lou and Old Griz. Griz is becoming (or I'm just noticing) a real FP afficionado.

Also check out Stylophile for some examples.

If you plan to stay in the kit world, and you beleive that you can get $150 to $500 per pen, why would you waste your time turning and selling lower end pens? They take almost as much time and the return is not as great.

Good luck and keep us posted!


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## chigdon

I personally think we can  sell in that price range with the higher end kit pens.  The reality is that only a very small percentage of the people out there know about what we are doing and how many people are doing it.  It is extremely rare for me to show my pens to anyone and for them to have ever seen anything like them before.  I think the problem is we don't think they are worth as much so we don't sell them for enough.

I am all for rwbirt02 selling them for as much as possible.  Just get your finish worked out, concentrate on the best kits and nibs, etc., work on creating a brand and aim high on the prices.  It is only doing us all a favor when you start selling them for high prices.


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## gerryr

Mark and Brian Gisi sell pens in that price range.  Check out their website at
http://www.gisiwriting.com/page/page/2409340.htm


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## coloneluw

I would be interested in seeing that pen also. so far i've managed to "sell" 1 pen to a coworker for ten bucks. And I think i can make a pretty good pen. As for your interest in fountain pens, I was the same way when I first started this hobby. I thought, wow, what a great way to make a lot of money....especially with fountain pens. Then i started looking into "real" fountain pens(what i distinguish between a craft pen and a professionally manufactured pen) and discovered that on the surface our craft/kit pens look like a 'real' fountain pen but fall far from it. What distiguishes ours is the one of a kindness/materials used. I beleive the "straight dope" on most professionally manufactured fountain pens is that they pay a lot of money to professional jewelers to custom design their nibs (then have them manufactured by a firm, such as Bock out of Germany i believe) and don't rely on a standard, stock nib (precious metal or not). If you look closely at many(if not all!) of the high end nibs, they almost always have there name and ornate scrolling on them. An excellent example would be the one known to us all, Mont Blanc. Go to their site and take a good look at their newest. Miesterstuck Solitaire 1906. Very nice, but i am willing to bet they aren't willing to sell you their nibs so you can put them on your own pen. Much less any other manufacturer. Aside from getting your hands on a high end nib, that doesn't look generic and downgrade your pen value, have you looked closely at how high end fountain pens are made? I would concentrate on how you are going to make those threaded caps and bodies before i worried about the nibs. I have not seen very many no this site other than BTBoones, which are spectacular, but my guess is that he's been at this awhile and has quite a bit invested too. You might want to check out www.pentrace.net before you insult too many people.


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## PenWorks

Mr. RW, good luck with your new venture [] I offer replacement 14K nibs for Gents,Statesmen,Emperors, Jr's/Barons. You can find my add for them in the business classified here on the secound page. 
They are manufactured by the same company that makes 80% of the gold nibs out there.
They are solid 14K and some have a rhodium mask for a two tone effect.
Having said this, putting a $60.00 gold nib on a pen only increases the price of the pen 60-120. The pen needs to be worthy of the nib.

As to which nib is the best, that depends on who is critiquing your nib. There will allways be that same ol debate over 18K or 14K, firm or flex. Everybody's taistes are different. I happen to like the 14K nibs, but I have no problem using Lamy steel nibs or some of the ones that come with our kit pens after a little smoothing out. 

I happen to sell allot of fountain pens, for a couple of reason, It takes me just as long to make a roller as it does a fountain pen, but I can sell a fountain pen for more. You tend to sell what you use and feel comfortable with. 

As to replies to your post, sometimes things are a little quite on the board over the weekend. I am sure it is nothing personal [8D]


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## woodpens

It is certainly possible to make fountain pens in this price range. However, you've got to have the right audience to sell many of them. Unless you have some serious connections already, you might be better off scaling back slightly to the $75 - $125 range. Like Anthony mentioned, you can add roughly $75 for a nib that costs you $60. May I ask how/where you plan on selling your pens? I have sold several pens in the $300 range, but if I didn't sell pens in the $50 - $100 range, my total sales wouldn't be 1/4 what it is currently.


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## coloneluw

Ok, upon review of my comments...i truly want to retract my sarcasm. It would not be my place to wish ill will on anyone. if you don't ask that price you will never get that price...so why not! coming from an art background, sometimes underpricing yourself is a bad thing. here is a great website i found from a guy who toured the Bock factory. it's very informative.
http://www.thesouthernscribe.com/PenArticles/Nibs.htm


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## PenWorks

I have never sold a fountain pen over a $150.00 with a steel nib. I think once you get over that price point, gold is the expected nib material.


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## rwbirt02

Well it's a new day, and I was hoping to clarify some of the comments that sparked a fire.  I'd like to make it very clear that I have absolutely no intention of insulting or stepping on toes of people that have devoted their own personal time to this timeless craft.  I'm only attempting to gather the information that is required to aquire the absolute best materials for the pens I will be selling.  If I can put a nib in my pen that is equivelent to what is in a high pen on the market, educate my clientel, and SELL them the pen...that is to say hold firm on what I believe my time to be worth...I then can provide the best possible product to the buyer.  

  I have spent countless hours studying, absorbing, and yes even lusting after pens that are made by the majors.  Montgrappa, Omas, Cartier are only a few of my favorites.  But I know that I can make a pen that is equal in quality, if not superior in quality provding I have done my research and backed it up with an absolutely discrimating eye for quality.  

  At the risk of going on off the philosophical deep end here...To me crafting a high end on-off pen for a collegue is about more than just the materials anyway.  It's about taking time with the client to go over materials, and going over pens that are made by the other majors.  After consulting my clientel and deciding exactly what they want in a pen...I can then look to the majors for ideas, and inspiration.  In the end, after I have invested this kind of time and attention to exactly what turns on my clientel (as far as pens are concerned of course)-I have made a personal conncetion with that individual.  After having made that connection, and can back it up with the absolute best pen; I can charge whatever that client is willing to pay for this once in a lifetime experience...how many other majors can I send someone to and tell them that they are able to get a completely one-off custom pen?  There may be some out there that will make pens in this way for their clientel, but I think a nose bleed would ensue after finding out what they had to pay that company to produce the pen of their dreams.  

  I hope the rookie hasn't pissed off any of the others in the group...it truly is not my intention.  I would like to ask though-why haven't people sold their pens for more?  What kind of value can we put on our work?  What is morally right...my answer would be whatever the client is willing to pay as long as we are supplying them with the absolute best quality work and materials avaliable to us as penturners.  Much of this will also be detrmined by our markets as well.  If I have a booth in an everyday craft show...there's no way I would expect to command these higher prices...there's also no way that I would be making the pens with solid sterling silver components and 14 or 18kt nibs.  That's not say that I wouldn't have some examples of such work at said booth...

  When we are selling pens to people, as with any other thing that is sold...it is about service.  We are selling ourselves with our pens...not just the pens by themselves.  If people were only interested in buying a pen...we wouldn't be able to sell any of our work...they would all be buying Bics.  When we take the time to get ideas from clientel and make a pen that is exactly what they see as being their dream pen...we have made a personal connection with them...that is why they are buying our pens.  They are interested in having someone listen to them, and make thier vision come true.  That is what my passion and intent is.  If they are willing to pay for that experience...I'm not going to stop them; especially if it allows me to provide for my family.  We all "sell" oursleves every day...


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## Mac In Oak Ridge

rwbirt02,
First, how about posting your first name on your posts.  We are a rather friendly bunch and welcome new members.

Second, thank you for what you have posted here.  We all tend to stagnate from time to time and a good rousing discussion about pen pricing helps all who read it.

One thing I have found and I think you may find is when a pen kit fountain pen gets into the hands of someone who knows and uses fountain pens one detail is immediately noticed. ---Balance!

The pens most of us make here are full of metal. Commerical manufacturers don't have to do that in most of their pen designs.  They can work with light weight materials (check out Boone's Titanium pens).  A person who is going to fork out $500 for a pen is a pen nut.  They will likely have had hundreds of pens in their hands over time, not all but most.  As soon as they pick up one of our pens they notice the weight immediatly.  Then they try and write with it. At that point they notice the balance.  They will try it with the cap posted (if it is that style of pen) and with the cap not posted.  Usually they will comment on how "out of ballance" the pen is.  With a Barron design, say, with the cap posted, you are making an effort to keep the nib on the paper.  You may not notice that so much but a veteran fountain pen user will.  A very high quality fountain pen lays on the paper of it's own weight and balance, you don't have to make it lay there.

Try a little test for yourself, or anyone reading this.  Take a Barron fountain pen, post the cap, lay it across a finger and find out where the ballance point of the pen is.  Compare that point to where you hold the pen when you are writing.  Take your Barron to an office supply store, the big chains sell high end pens.  Pick up a name brand pen that sells for $100 or so and compare the weight of it to your Barron.

Then you get to the nibs.  The main thrust and topic you started out with was nibs.  With the pen kits you get plated steel nibs, to start with we only got what was called a medium nib with a kit.  When we first had access to fine, medium and broad nibs we were very excited about it.  However I have found what is being sold as a fine nib that fits our pen kits actually makes a line closer to a medium nib.  To get a true fine line the available fine nib has to be altered.  It can be done but it adds more time to your making of a pen, and time is money.  That time, hence money, can't be added to the price of the pen. You are simply spending the time to make the pen what you claim it is, or you don't mess with the nib at all, call it a fine point, and the knowlegeable pen buyer will keep moving along and keep his money in his pocket.

The nib issues then lead you to the pen feed section.  Most of the pen feed sections that come with our kit pens does not work properly.  To make that $500 pen you will have to solve that.  I alter each pen feed section so it will perform properly.  Add another 30-45 min. per pen to the cost of making it.  Again that time can't be passed along in the price, the pen is supposed to work properly and that is just what is needed to call it a fountain pen.  When I sell a fountain pen that I have made to someone I have spent about 2 more hours on it, just working over the nib and feed section, putting ink in the pen and testing it to make sure that it will work properly.  All that time is lost to me but the buyer won't be back in my face with a pen that skips when it writes, or runs dry when in use or that makes a broad line when I told them it was a fine point nib.

You can go to the 14k gold nibs that are offered by Anthony.  As he said, they cost you $60 and as others have said you can add ca. $75 or more to the price of the pen.  That gets a higher quality nib on your pen.  It doesn't fix the feed section problems.  But that is as far as most pen makers can go.  The next step would be to send the finished pen to one of the pen nib Guru's and have them fit a custom nib that has been tweaked to fit your pen and made to function properly.  That would cost you an addtional $100 or so over the price of the nib.  So, let's say you do that.  You spend say $150 to get a good quality nib and to have it function properly. You sell that $500 pen to someone.  That someone keeps it for a day, comes back, and says, "This thing just doesn't suit my style of writing."  Whacha gonna do?


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## Old Griz

Actually, I do find myself a bit put off by some of what you have said... I have been making and selling my work for over 3 yrs and have a reputation of being a better than average practioner of our craft.  I am by no means the be all and do all of penturners... but I have worked long and hard to get where I am today.. 

You asked why some have not sold their work for more... to be brutally honest some penturners work is not worth more than they are currently charging... some turners work is worth more than they are charging.  The pricing of pens comes with a learning curve.  It can be a very steep learning curve.  According to your first post, you are new to penturning, but have a lot of experience with finishing materials... that makes what I consider the hardest part of the learning curve a bit easier.  But you still have to learn to make a pen that looks good.  I have sold pens as high as $350 and as low as $20.  Would you care to guess what the average price of pen sales is... More in the range of $75-90 and most of my sales are fountain pens and roller balls..  I do a two month craft booth over Nov-Dec on Saturday mornings and do very well considering my geographic and economic area (Western MD).  My work also sells well off my website.  The majority of my high priced pens have been from inquiries from my web site.  I have 5 customers who purchase at least 1 pen every 3-4 months from me... they are very particular about the materials, shape and platings on the pens... but they are also willing to pay top dollar, because they know I will produce what they want in the quality they demand.  Does this mean my other pens do not meet this quality standard... absolutely not... but for these customers I do take that little extra step.

You mention using solid sterling silver fittings and parts for you pens, are you producing them yourself... because to date there is only one kits manufacturer offering solid sterling silver fittings and that is only in two kits, the El Grande Fountain Pen and the Flat Top American Ballpoint pen.  So obviously if you do not produce your own hardware, you are going to be limited to only the El Grande FP... not exactly the way to have a diversified product line that can bring in customers.

I am sorry if this ticks you off, but I believe you need to learn to doggy paddle before you swim the English Channel.  And I do believe you are being more than a bit presumptuous about starting your pricing in the $150-$500 range off the bat... I am real curious who you intend to market these pens to and how you intend to market them... At least 3-4 pen turners I know advertise in the "BIG" pen magazines... and I am pretty sure they are not getting consistant $500 sales.. in fact I would be surprised if they are getting regular $300 sales..  and these guys are at the top of their craft, not a beginner.

My suggestion... back off and collect all the information you can get from the members here.  They are more than willing to help a newbie.  Also back off on questioning our motives and pricing strategies until you have spent some time in the market and took the blows the rest of us have. Yes you have studied and lusted over the high price pens... so have the rest of us... I also collect and restore old pens... so I not only know the market, but know that materials these pens are made from... I also have sources for some exotic old materials from Europe and they are used for my $300+ pens... this stuff is extremely limited in supply... 

Learn the craft, show us your work, explain what you are doing and you will get a load of help here.... 

I am sorry if you feel insulted by this message, but I have been around this craft quite a while and IMO have seen quite a bit.
I will now get off my soapbox....


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## rwbirt02

Not in any way offended-rather I appreciate the time you have given me.  Thank you.  I see how coming out and saying that I am selling pens @ $500 a pop would sound tart at best...but I would like to state for the record...I am not suffering from illusions of grandour.  I realize that a simple majority of the pens I produce will be more likely to sell in the $75-$200 dollar range; but I refuse to settle with that.  I will go on to produce pens that command higher prices, and are made of the finest materials that can be found.

  It may very well sound as though I am a blow hard; but I beg of you not to misunderstand...I'm simply motivated to make pens that rival the majors; one at a time-for each individual that I am catering to.  Hence the reason I have started to devote time and effort into research and devolopment of my newly chosen craft.  I'm well aware that there will be set backs, frustrations, and moments of sheer dispair as I walk this path...

  The orginal topic of dicussion was NIBS...thank you to all who have given their insight on the matter.  I'm not here to brag about my skills, clientel, materials, or pricing.  Simply doing the research to back up what I intend to be providing my clientel with.  So on that note...my understanding up to this point is that if a nib is said to be 14 or 18kt gold, than it is gold all the way through just like a wedding band is solid 14 or 18kt gold.  That nib is then tipped irridium; which isn't actually iridium, but an alloy that is from the platinum family.  In addition the nib is often "masked" (plated) with a second precious metal to provide a "two tone" effect.  My research up to this point has not provided me with information as to whether this "masking" provides better performance or is simply decorative.  

  Also I understand that there are one or two "kit" nibs avaliable to me that are solid 14 or 18kt gold; and at an ungraded price...fine-more cost to the client.  So this leaves me with an understanding that the rest of the nibs that are in a run of the mill kits are steel of some sort while being tipped with "iridium", and sometimes are plated in 14 or 18kt gold and or masked with a secondary plating of some sort.  


  Once again questions in regard to NIBS are still emminent.  Are there other materials that are used for tipping other than "Iridium"?  What are some of the best resorces to be delved into in regard to performance of differnt nibs...websites, books, etc?  Also-I have noticed that some high end pens from the majors have "ebonite feeders".  Are these feeders something that we can get our hands on, and or do they provide performance that justifies the cost?  Is an ebonite feeder any better than plasctic or any other material, and has anyone tried making feeders from alternative materials...brass, copper, alluminum, stainless steel?  Is there anyone that can give me the best resource to look into regard this subject of feeders...performance, care, cleaning, etc.  Thanks again to all that give their time and expertise.


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## DCBluesman

I've laid off this topic for as long as I can.  rwbirt02, here's the real scoop.  You've been a member of this site for 2 months, you've made 7 posts, half of which are in this thread and you have not shown anything that lets the members here know that you are anything but a taker as far as the forum is considered.

You start out by telling us that we don't know how to sell, we don't seek and use the top quality materials, that we don't know maketing, that we don't know how to work with a customer...ad nauseum.  In fact, I'm so sick of reading how you are so much smarter than us, that if I were a customer I'd walk out on you.  Hopefully you do better communicating in person than you do in type.

Now, you want to know everything that the members of this group have worked long and hard for in order that you can have a short-track to the finish line?  I think not.  Not until you start sharing.  Not until you've earned your stripes.  Do you want to know about nibs, feeds, filling systems?  Your best solution is to do a Google seach.  You can find all of the information that the rest of us have found.  There are scores of books.  Try searching Amazon.

In closing this little note, I admire your goal, but you are already leaving a lot of glass in your wake.  Try a little sharing, try a little courtesy.  You may get some help with direction.


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## btboone

&gt;if a nib is said to be 14 or 18kt gold, than it is gold all the way through just like a wedding band is solid 14 or 18kt gold.

Hey, wait a minute, I thought wedding rings were supposed to be titanium! [)]

For the feed mechanisms, you could make them out of any of those materials as long as the nib with its associated plastic part screws into it.  If you take the gold nib out, you notice in most of those plastic feeds a flat part on one side that channels the ink.  There's no way to make that unless it's molded plastic. 

I agree with a lot of the sentiment here.  Start smaller and grow into the bigger numbers as you learn the market and particulars of what separates good pens from great pens.  Fit and finish are indeed a big factor, but in order to separate from the crowd, you also need some higher push in the form of design, function, or some other niche.  It's tough to get that much different when everyone uses the same kit parts and has those same goals.  I think that Chris is dead on in needing to establish an identity of consistant high end pens.  Sell a few for what you can get, and as you get better, you up the price and focus more on what the customer is wanting.


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## bobaltig

I'd really be fascinated to see some photos of your $500+ pens.  I don't think my pens are good enough to sell, and I really don't need the money anyway, so I don't bother with the hassle of getting a resellers license in California, charging sales tax in California, and reporting the additional income on my tax returns to the Feds and the State.  I've seen some pretty incredible looking pens that sell for $500+ and would be interested in seeing yours. It might just encourage me to try new things.  How about posting a few pictures just to encourage an old piker like me?

Bob A


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## AirportFF

Man, I've been doing this off and on for about 5 years and still don't know everything. And I don't think I will ever ask $500 for a pen. I'd rather sell 10 $20 pens in a week or so than 1 or 2 $300 pens a year. I can't afford to have a ton of inventory sitting around and like to keep the turnover high. That's why I stick to the "lowly" slimline styles, Euro's etc. I also love rollerballs (Gents, Statesman, Barons)  
Personally, I stay away from doing FP since I really don't know that much about them. But should I ever consider getting seriously into them I would research them for myself first. Instead of starting a discussion of "Let me take your ideas and sell them for $500 a clip" approach. It's just my opinion, but I think that you may have stepped on quite a few toes.

Good Luck
Clint


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## rwbirt02

It seems that I'm already on the bad side of a number of people in this group of fine penturners...never my intention.  As for being a taker...eveyone's opinion is valid...thank you.  In regard to pictures, I will be glad to post them when I have finished some pens that are worthy of your alls' time.  When I have information that is valid, and or pertinent to what is being posted, and or researched by members of this organization; I will gladly share what I know-or don't know for that matter.  

  The bottom line as I see it, is that we are all trying to make a few extra bucks doing something that we truly enjoy, and take a great deal of pride in.  I was never aware that I needed to "earn stripes" in order to gain information that is pertinent to our chosen craft; in fact I was under the impression that the IAP is in place to help people gain this imformation easily...without having to spend countless hours searching on the web that could be spent turning pens.  As for being smarter than anyone else in this organization...I highly doubt it.  How could someone as new as me, and with so little experience turning pens be smarter than all of the people in here...I think I've been given way too much credit...but that's just my opinion.  

  Maybe for now it's best that we all let this thread find an end, and turn some pens out instead of beating up on the new guy because he's such a cad "in type".  Unless of course there are some other people out there that have some more imformation that can be passed along for all to read and benefit from...regarding nibs of course.


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## PenWorks

Well in closing RW, I thnk of all the threads posted here, less than 1% probablly discuss nibs. We really are more concerned about pen making using different materials & kits & finishes. Now there's a discussion, what finish do you use ? []

I know none of us are feed makers and no one I know here has an injection mold machine in their shop, ( well maybe Bruce is holding out on us) []

Your nib choices are really fairly simple, you use the steel nibs that come with the kits, or you buy a gold nib from me, or rob a nice decortive gold nib off an expensive pen for your expensive pen and try to make it fit, or have about 10,000 to give Bock to design and make a nib for your pens.( they will be using plactic feeds & houses)

Nibs haven't changed much over the last 75 or so years except gold is now 550 an oz []


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## btboone

Anthony hit the nail on the head.  That's exactly the situation for nibs. The feeds have to be of such high precision that we can't make them, although we can make the barrel section that the feed screws into.

I'm working on that molding machine. []


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## gerryr

Bruce, when you get that molding machine, you gonna offer feeds for sale?[]


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## btboone

I have a major pool project going on now.  A molding machine will have to take a back seat.  [8D]  I did actually look into one of those table top machines at one time.


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## RussFairfield

Getting the molding machine is the easy part. For something like a fountain pen feed, the finish and precision of the mold is all important, and its cost could easilly exceed that of the machine.

One of the reasons that I like to buy the Bexley nibs for a fountain pen is that the feed is better and more consistent than those on the kit pens, regardless of the nib that is used. The only problem with using them is that the thread is different from that used on the kits. They are not a direct screw-in replacement, and that means being able to turn threads or make a tap for them.


----------



## btboone

I agree Russ.  When I really checked into doing them, it didn't look to be practical at all.


----------



## RussFairfield

I'm like Lou, I held off on this one as long as I could. 

Making a $500 pen is not an easy thing to do. The first goal is breaking the $100 quality barrier. That means a gold nib; not the same steel nib that comes on the $35 Waterman from Office Depot. If you were to take the best of the pen kits and add a $100 nib to it, it will be a $200 pen, maybe a $250 if the wood and workmanship is perfect, but no more than that. 

To get into the $500 price range you will need four things - knowledge, design, quality, and name.   

Knowledge takes time. You must be able to talk to an educated customer. People who use fountain pens are snobs. They don't want to buy a fountain pen from somebody whose conversational skills don't go past the Bic. You must be able to talk intelligently about them, know their language, know their science and art, know their nuances, and most of all, know how to write skillfully with a fountain pen. 

Let's face a fact. There is still a stigma around a pen that looks like the photo of a $5  kit in a catalog. There are still a lot of crappy looking kit pens being made and sold, and making the same pen with a better finish is still the same pen with a better finish in the eyes of the customer. Having a basic design, or features, that nobody can find in a kit catalog is an important step.

A $500 PEN HAS TO LOOK LIKE A $500 PEN. It must have the fit and finish that goes with the price. It must be flawless. The only way to develop those skills is by making a lot of pens.

The "name" and the association of quality, skill, and all of those things that go with it are worth money, and you will never get into the $500 price without it. The only way to get the "name" is to show your craft in a lot of pen shows in a lot of cities, and advertise in the fountain pen magazines. That takes an investment in time and money.

The folks who have answered (or failed to answer) your questions about nibs have invested a lot of time and money into developing knowledge and skills and collecting the tools that are necessary to make a better pen. Some of them are already selling the $500 pen. Others are into the $250 pen category and lusting for the $500 pen. Others have all of the skills and design innovation to get there, but to stay below the $100 barrier because they have neither the time or money to invest. Still others choose to stay below the $100 barrier because there is money to be made there and they are comfortable with that. The majority approach making pens as as a hobby, and while they might have the skills to make a $500 pen, they prefer not to turn their hobby into a full-time job. 

All of them object to a total stranger, who knows nothing about pens, walking up with two chips on each shoulder, telling them that if they tell him everything they know, he will show them how to sell their pens for $500. 

"Tact" is defined as having the ability to tell someone to go to Hell and make them look forward to the trip. Your first message was not a tactful one. Learning the skills of communication with other artists and craftsmen might be that most important first step in your quest for the $500 pen.


----------



## lkorn

> _Originally posted by RussFairfield_
> <br />All of them object to a total stranger, who knows nothing about pens, walking up with two chips on each shoulder, telling them that if they tell him everything they know, he will show them how to sell their pens for $500.




Russ, Initially, I chose not to respond to this query for obvious reasons.  What amazed me is that most of the members here tried, albeit unsuccessfully, to direct RW in the RIGHT direction, instead of merely telling him where to go.   Its too bad that he doesn't listen.


----------



## PenWorks

> _Originally posted by RussFairfield_
> <br />
> People who use fountain pens are snobs.
> 
> Thanks for the compliment Russ []
> 
> 
> "Tact" is defined as having the ability to tell someone to go to Hell and make them look forward to the trip.



  ROTFLMAO []


----------



## ldimick

> _Originally posted by PenWorks_
> <br />
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Originally posted by RussFairfield_
> <br />
> People who use fountain pens are snobs.
> 
> Thanks for the compliment Russ []
> 
> 
> "Tact" is defined as having the ability to tell someone to go to Hell and make them look forward to the trip.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ROTFLMAO []
> 
> I've got the directions - need a ride? [}]
Click to expand...


----------



## chigdon

We haven't had this much fun around here since Eagle was around.


----------



## Thumbs

<b>Snobs?</b>  Who'd a thunk it?[:0][]

But that aside:

Come on you guys!  Didn't we have some clowns plow through this site several times last month stirring up noise and trouble?  Does the word gullible mean anything to you?  When some yahoo from another site stirs up something nonsensical for their amusement we continually fall for it. [] The original post here was patent nonsense and needed no response and got little. But most fisherman know you have to present the bait with a little extra sometimes to get that first bite.  So get your pal to "chum" the waters....  Sometimes it causes a feeding frenzy, huh?  Maybe that's why the term "trolling" comes up in regard to this on occasion!

I'm sure some with whom we have been acquainted here are sitting on the floor laughing their <b>AO</b>, too, every time we fall for this <b>BS</b>!

The particular problem is that we do have to resign ourselves to the fact that if we want to help the newbies and each other, we are going to be easy prey to the sickos who wish to take advantage of others.  It would be worse to become as cynical and as sick as those who think it is great sport to embarrass and harass people only trying to help someone. [V] Whether they think we have a worthy contribution or not, we have to remember why we joined this group. I think most of us joined to share and partake of the knowledge available here.  Even if we had little or nothing to contribute or still have little or nothing to contribute, we have shared as best we can and still should continue to do so regardless of the trolls and clowns among us......[)][]


----------



## gerryr

Bob, I wondered about that last night, but then I thought who would go to the trouble of posting some inoccuous question about needing a mandrel to fit a #3 MT on a Enco 7x10 lathe.  I just visited the Enco site and according to the information there, the Enco 7x10 uses a #2 MT.  So, you might be right.[:0]


----------



## Thumbs

Ummm.....  I don't know about the Enco, Gerry; but my Cummins 7x12 uses an MT#3 spindle taper and an MT#2 tailstock taper.  According to the Little Machine Shop mini-lathe comparison guide, most of the other 7x10 thru 7x12 and 14 mini-lathes do also. But they don't list an Enco model so I don't know about that one.  Is it a metal lathe, too, or a mini- wood lathe?[?]


----------



## Thumbs

Gerry, I just found the other post.  Sounds like two different people to me..........?  [?]


----------



## rwbirt02

Nope I'm  the same person.   I looked at the owners manual for my lathe and it says I have a #3 morse taper in my headstock...probably an onversight on my part...newbies.  I've always wanted to be a fisherman...I guess I finally achieved my lifes goal...who would have guessed?    Funny thing is I got more help on my very first thread in the IAP...it was very much appreciated.  Now I've become a fisherman...wow; cool.  

  Alright so if the IAP just needed a stir then that's cool with me.  It's become quite apparent that no matter what attempts I make to rectify any semblence of arrogance, lack of tact, and or just plain discourtesy that I have seemingly displayed in my posts...I'm screwed; I can't win.  So if this is whats it like to be a fisherman...I quit.  Does anyone want to talk about pens...?  Sincerely, that is what I'm here for...I'd like to make the best pens that I can...with you all.  If you all want me around, I'd be honored to learn from anyone thats interested in teaching a stupid, arrogant, crass, SOB-of-a-fisherman.  If not...se la vie.  

  Never, never, never has it ever been my intention to cross or step on a single toe in this organization...it wouldn't be much fun for me to step on the toes of people  I've never even met...the rush just wouldn't be the same.Javascript:insertsmilie('[]')  Let alone the fact that toes are dangerous to step on...they might be attached to the ass you have to kiss on a different occasion.  I might be kind of slow with my communication skills, and obviously don't know anything about my lathe because I had to read my owners manual to find out what size taper it has in the headstock...I might be dumb; but I'm not that dumb enough to intentionally steps on the toes of people I've never had the pleasure of meeting in person.  So if I've somehow done this inadvertently in my posts; please forgive me.  Now can we all just get along and make some great pens? Javascript:insertsmilie('[)]') I'd really like to learn and turn with the best people I can.  Best regards, and thank you to all who have posted in attempt to break in the newbie.  Javascript:insertsmilie('[]')

Eagle must have been a character!

P.S. I go by the mane of Ed in response to the earlier post about first names.


----------



## lkorn

> _Originally posted by rwbirt02_
> <br />P.S. I go by the mane of Ed in response to the earlier post about first names.



I'm sorry, this was too difficult to pass up, "mane of Ed" aka "Mr Ed".  Anyone else remember him?


----------



## Mac In Oak Ridge

Ed,
A good start would be to make a few pens and post pictures on this web site.  Ask for opinions of your work.  You'll get them, good and bad.  Take that and make more pens. Keep improving and add your talent in musical instrument repair and who knows.....

If your repair work is on metal instruments you have a lot of tools and materials that others here don't have.  Go for it, we all will look forward to seeing your work.

I can't speak for everyone, but I think you will find a good deal of help here if you just take it easy.  You don't catch a rabbit by running across the field, you sneak up on it and grab it's ears.


----------



## wudwrkr

Mac,
I second your opinion.  I was in the process of writing the same thing when your post came in.  There is not much more advice/criticism/help/badgering [] that this group can give until you show us some of the work you've done.  I'm sure most of us look forward to seeing these $500 pens []


----------



## dfurlano

I didn't read the whole thread but I am sure all is good.  I look forward to seeing some photos.


----------



## Old Griz

OK Ed, you want to discuss pen and pen making in general and learn to do it.. this is the place.. 
But like the rest of us you need to crawl before you learn to walk... 
Start off slow, learn to use your tools and machines and show us some work... we will critique it... and let me warn you.. we do not pull punches, not for newbies or the experienced turners.. If we see something that is not right, you will be told, you will also get suggestions on how to improve your work.  
Correct me if I am wrong, but it sounds like you have a metal lathe.  That is not the best thing to use for pen turning with hand tools.  It can be done, but a decent wood lathe is your best bet... in the way of a mini lathe I recommend a Jet 1014VS...


----------



## btboone

Although having a metal lathe means you can make your own threads, and that can help differentiate your pens from the crowd.    As it's been said before, it will take something different, very high quality, and marketing to the right folks to be able to pull it off.


----------



## terrymiller

It seems to me that I have read in this forum that people have gotten that much and more for pens.  While this gentleman may be new to the site or turning you can't knock him for wanting to use the best items for his pens.  Dont we all have the hopes of making pens in that price range.  Why dont you all quite bashing the guy and help him further his skills so he can achieve the price and product that he wants.  Given his past experience with repairing instruments he may be able to offer a lot of insight to different finishes he has used in the past.


----------



## rwbirt02

Ok, so it seems we're off to a better start now...wonderful.  I understand the pros/cons of using a metal lathe to turn, but it's what I have.  As far as metal lathes are concerned it's not even a great lathe.  I would love to have a wood lathe as well, but I will have to turn out a few pens before I can tell my wife I need another lathe...yes I have a boss too.Javascript:insertsmilie('[^]')  To be completely honest with enyone here-that's all I have; my lathe and allot of what I would consider to be outstanding ideas for pens.  I'm still in the process of aqquiring all the tooling, materials, and supplies I will need to start turning.  Hence I came to this forum to get the best advice I could in regard to kits, nibs, etc.  

  And although I have yet to turn my first pen, I'm confident I will be able to turn pens that are of high quality and will please clients.  Thanks again for all the advice, and when I have turned that first pen...I would be glad to post it and recieve feedback.  

  Also, I was wondering in regard to feeders...would it be possible to use a milling or CNC machine to create a feeder out of a better material than plastic?  Yes, I know how small and intricate feeders are-but maybe even a feeder that is simplified in some way...not so many "fins" in it-I dont' know...something.  In my mind I see this for a really outstanding pen...possibly it's been done already, but I haven't seen it yet-even from the majors.  The pen as follows...cigar-black blank; material could be ebonite, grenadilla, acrylic, celluloid...take your pick.  Solid sterling hardware...and a 14kt nib.  This pen is likely to have been turned already...but...what if you can fabricate a feeder out of sterling as well.  A pen with the additional weight of a sterling feeder may even help out any balance issues as were mentioned earlier in the thread.  Let alone the asthetics of a feeder that is made from a material other than just plastic.  As I had mentioned before some possible materials for feeders could be brass(buffed to a high lustre with red rouge of course) alluminum, bronze, copper, sterling silver, even titanium...with the best nib avaliable.   Obviously this is an amibitious undertaking, but I find it hard to believe that such a feeder couldn't be fabricated by someone.  I understand that the barrel the feeder and nib are held in would most likely remain plastic on the inside, but never the less...seeing that sterling silver feeder hanging out under a really nice nib would be in my opinion pretty damn sexy.  

  Feedback is welcome; thanks again.


----------



## sptfr43

I will echo what has has been said already,if you are looking for advice in the area of machining somthing you need to speak with Bruce (btboone) he seems to be the guy to go to judging from the work he has shown off here.


----------



## DCBluesman

Ed - Your idea of a metal feed sounds good in theory, but in practice they don't work.  The ink will simply bead on the fins and the pen will skip badly.  That's part of the problem with plastic feeds as well.  Truly you will be well-served to get some books on fountain pens and read.  It will save you countless hours of frustration if you get the basics in hand before you go off chasing a thought which has already been shown to be unworkable.  Besides Amazon, you might try some of the books that The Fountain Pen Hospital sells.


----------



## btboone

You can make the barrel from any of those materials.  The feed stays plastic and screws in.  Here's a titanium one.






<br />


----------



## rwbirt02

Ok then, I'm off to the library for further research-thanks again.  By the way Bruce...spectacular work.


----------



## Phil Joines

You can turn wood on a metal lathe. Look around to find a banjo and tool rest to fit. Take the cross slide off, put the banjo on and have at it. Taig makes a set for their mini metal lathe and I have an antique Atlas wood/metal combo so it does work. Clean all the chips out and oil it each time you finish to prevent rust. You'll probably want to run it near it's maximum RPM.


----------



## Mac In Oak Ridge

A pen feed needs be altered or tweaked after it is installed in the pen feed section.  That is why they are made of the materials that they are made of, not metal.  The common method is to stick the end of the feed section in hot water (the pros use a flame from a alcohol lamp, but they are pros), bend it to increase or decrease the ink flow, then put it under cold water quickly while holding it in the conditon that you are seeking.  That "sets" the material in that geometry and it will stay there.  

You can't do that with metal, not to mention the other issues of metal as outlined above.


----------



## Mac In Oak Ridge

Ed, If you are still following this thread, you might want to look at somethng.  Go to the Individual Classified forum and read the post by William.  He is selling his entire pen making shop.  You can get a good idea what it takes to make pens.


----------



## wdcav1952

> _Originally posted by Thumbs_
> <br /><b>Snobs?</b>  Who'd a thunk it?[:0][]
> 
> But that aside:
> 
> Come on you guys!  Didn't we have some clowns plow through this site several times last month stirring up noise and trouble?  Does the word gullible mean anything to you?  When some yahoo from another site stirs up something nonsensical for their amusement we continually fall for it. [] The original post here was patent nonsense and needed no response and got little. But most fisherman know you have to present the bait with a little extra sometimes to get that first bite.  So get your pal to "chum" the waters....  Sometimes it causes a feeding frenzy, huh?  Maybe that's why the term "trolling" comes up in regard to this on occasion!
> 
> I'm sure some with whom we have been acquainted here are sitting on the floor laughing their <b>AO</b>, too, every time we fall for this <b>BS</b>!
> 
> The particular problem is that we do have to resign ourselves to the fact that if we want to help the newbies and each other, we are going to be easy prey to the sickos who wish to take advantage of others.  It would be worse to become as cynical and as sick as those who think it is great sport to embarrass and harass people only trying to help someone. [V] Whether they think we have a worthy contribution or not, we have to remember why we joined this group. I think most of us joined to share and partake of the knowledge available here.  Even if we had little or nothing to contribute or still have little or nothing to contribute, we have shared as best we can and still should continue to do so regardless of the trolls and clowns among us......[)][]



What on Earth are you talking about??


----------



## Thumbs

Well, William, if you're not just trolling and really want to know just give me a call.


----------



## rtjw

I'll take offense to that one Bob.


----------



## rwbirt02

Sounds like I still have some reading to do on the mechaincs of fountain pens...(eating humble pie).  Up to this point my mind has been set on design, quality, materials, and asthetics...all important factors in making that great pen; but if the ink don't run right...

As far as tooling and machines...I have the lathe, a drill press, and some other odds&ends tooling.  So I still need to invest in mandrels, mandrel shafts, bushings, chisels, bushings(most of which I understand can be bought @ discount with said kit), kits, blanks, some abrasives, and finishes.  Still quite a bit on the list, but some items aren't too expensive.  I think I can get my foot in the door for somewhere between $300 to $500 based on what I have already.  Saving those pennies, doing more research on FP mechanics, and drawing/designing more pens on paper, and in my mind.  

Hasta Luego


----------



## Thumbs

Well, Johnny, since William never responded in any manner you can draw any conclusion or offense you want.  Although, I'm wondering why you are considering it any of your business.  If you didn't send anyone to this site, why should you be concerned. If you did and thereby wish to take offense, be my guest.

Ed, if my first post in this thread was a misjudgement of you, my apology.  No one else here is entitled to one that I can see.


----------



## rtjw

> _Originally posted by Thumbs_
> <br />Well, Johnny, since William never responded in any manner you can draw any conclusion or offense you want.  Although, I'm wondering why you are considering it any of your business.  If you didn't send anyone to this site, why should you be concerned. If you did and thereby wish to take offense, be my guest.
> 
> Ed, if my first post in this thread was a misjudgement of you, my apology.  No one else here is entitled to one that I can see.



To quote a friend:

*click*


----------



## Thumbs

Awww, Johnny, How could you say such a *click* thing?[][][][]

Friend? Who?  Yours or mine?[][][][]


----------



## kgwaugh

Edit:  No question that I meant to address this to Ed...Don't know how I got William in here...

William, based on your success with instrument building, etc., you undoubtedly have a website, fotos, etc of your past work.  How about posting some url's where we can see the high level of your work---other than BT Boone, we don't get to see much high quality, jewelery-level work around here!  

Lots of great wood and plastics turning, laminations, engraving, etc., but it would be interesting to see the nature of your work!!

TIA,

Gene


----------



## gerryr

Gene, actually his name is Ed and he doesn't build instruments, he repairs them and that's a significant difference.  I own several vintage trumpets and flugelhorns and know from sad experience that not all instrument repair people are equal.  This is not meant to disparage his work, but there are only four people in the country that I will let touch one of my horns for anything but the simplest of repairs, and most of those I can do myself.  But, I would also like to see some of his work.  You never know, maybe my list of quality repair people might increase by one.


----------



## Skye

> _Originally posted by gerryr_
> <br />Gene, actually his name is Ed and he doesn't build instruments, he repairs them and that's a <b>significant difference</b>.  I own several vintage trumpets and flugelhorns and know from <b>sad</b> experience that <b>not all instrument repair people are equal</b>.  This is not meant to disparage his work, <b>but</b> there are only four people in the country that I will let touch one of my horns for anything but the simplest of repairs, and most of those I can do myself.  But, I would also like to see some of his work.  <b>You never know</b>, maybe my list of quality repair people might increase by one.



To me, that whole paragraph seems like your questioning his ability. If you donâ€™t believe he can turn a high dollar pen, just say it.

Those that build and those that repair are not the same. So, I take it you mean that those that repair are less skilled than those that build.

You know from disappointment that there are bad repairmen out there. Why would you even mention this unless you're questioning his abilities?

If donâ€™t mean to disparage his work, there's no need for a "but" and then throw in a comment how out of the thousands out there, you only trust 4. Basically, youâ€™re saying â€œOdds are, youâ€™re not up to snuff either.â€ Sounds harsh, but considering how your approval rating is probably less than 1% of the repairmen in the entire US, itâ€™s true.

â€œLook, Iâ€™m not saying you donâ€™t have a cute baby, <b>but</b> there are only 4 kids in the country I think are cute.â€ Face it, Iâ€™m saying the kid aint cute.

You never know. People who are giving the benefit of the doubt donâ€™t use the phrase â€œYou never knowâ€. People that are hoping for something they deem unlikely use that phase.

If you doubt the guy, just say it. Itâ€™s annoying to watch this tip-toe show.


----------



## wdcav1952

Gene,

I don't think you meant me when you made your request for web site, etc.  The only "instruments" I have ever made were for writing, some of which I have posted here.

Thumbs,

I waited an hour for your private Black Helicopter, "Conspiracy Theory One" to pick me up last night, and gave up and went to bed.  Maybe explain your theory here for everyone to read?


----------



## gerryr

Skye, I find your posts annoying.


----------



## Skye

The truth often hurts.

Buck up, little camper.


----------



## gerryr

You said it sonny boy.


----------



## Thumbs

Well, wdcav1952, aren't you the bold one as ever <u>in type and behind someone's back........</u>  Some things never change. I had hopes you might mature and act like a man someday.  My mistake, again.......[V]

Anytime you wish to visit to apologize, or take exception with what I have said, you're welcome to visit even if only for a short time.


----------



## rtjw

Thumbs, I asked for an explanation as well. Would you care to clarify your statement.


----------



## wdcav1952

> _Originally posted by Thumbs_
> <br />Well, wdcav1952, aren't you the bold one as ever <u>in type and behind someone's back........</u>  Some things never change. I had hopes you might mature and act like a man someday.  My mistake, again.......[V]
> 
> Anytime you wish to visit to apologize, or take exception with what I have said, you're welcome to visit even if only for a short time.



Thumbs,

You flatly accused a sister site of manufacturing an identity just to cause problems at the IAP.  I am a proud, <u>contributing</u>  member of both sites and I take exception to your accusation as being totally assinine without some modicum of proof.  I do not wish proof on a personal basis; I want you to put up or shut up here on the site.  If calling me names gives you some measure of personal satisfaction, I can deal with that fact without being offended.

Again, if you have proof of your accusation, do as you did with the original accusation, make it public here on the same site.  If you don't have any proof, a retraction may be in order.


----------



## Old Griz

Bob, I have to agree with William.... 
I am also a proud member of both sites.... and I very much doubt that the original message in this thread was started from the other site.. 
There is a very good working relationship between the two sites that has taken a bit of time and effort on the side of both owners.... 
I am curious as to why you feel the need to cause dissention between the sites... 
IF you have proof post it and it will be dealt with... IF NOT then please do not continue this line of accusations.


----------



## Thumbs

Boy!  I sure have a difficult time following whatever you boys use for logic.  No where in my post did I name or accuse any particular one or site about what has happened here several times in the recent past.  If you wish to wear blinders, do so.  I made an observation about some recent events and of some people's behavior.  If that strikes some tender or guilty nerves, too bad.  

This was nothing personal until wdcav1952 made it so. Then Johnny jumps in. Et Tu, Old Griz?  I will not be made anyone's scape goat because I dare voice my opinion nor will I yield to the screams of harpies for the sake of "political correctness."  If I offended you, I didn't originally mean to.  But, now, I don't particularly care as reason seems to mean so little here in this "mob" mentality. 

Have it any way you wish.  Read whatever you wish into what I say.  I've seen you twist my words and other's words to suit.  Do as you will; I expect no good will, logic, or common decency of you.

I doubt there is any more I could say that you would understand or give even a reasonable hearing to so say on and do your worst I am done with this and you.


----------



## wdcav1952

> _Originally posted by Thumbs_
> <br /><b>Snobs?</b>  Who'd a thunk it?[:0][]
> 
> But that aside:
> 
> Come on you guys!  Didn't we have some clowns plow through this site several times last month stirring up noise and trouble?  Does the word gullible mean anything to you?  When some yahoo from another site stirs up something nonsensical for their amusement we continually fall for it. [] The original post here was patent nonsense and needed no response and got little. But most fisherman know you have to present the bait with a little extra sometimes to get that first bite.  So get your pal to "chum" the waters....  Sometimes it causes a feeding frenzy, huh?  Maybe that's why the term "trolling" comes up in regard to this on occasion!
> 
> I'm sure some with whom we have been acquainted here are sitting on the floor laughing their <b>AO</b>, too, every time we fall for this <b>BS</b>!
> 
> The particular problem is that we do have to resign ourselves to the fact that if we want to help the newbies and each other, we are going to be easy prey to the sickos who wish to take advantage of others.  It would be worse to become as cynical and as sick as those who think it is great sport to embarrass and harass people only trying to help someone. [V] Whether they think we have a worthy contribution or not, we have to remember why we joined this group. I think most of us joined to share and partake of the knowledge available here.  Even if we had little or nothing to contribute or still have little or nothing to contribute, we have shared as best we can and still should continue to do so regardless of the trolls and clowns among us......[)][]



After re-reading this post, I now understand why you have trouble understanding what others use for logic.  Thanks for clearing that up for us.


----------



## TerryBlanchard

I have found the best fountain pen so far is the Jr Gentleman.  My wife and I both write with fountain pens and used cross prior to me turning.  The JR Gentleman is the best I have found.  The ElGrande dries out in a couple of adys ant the JR stays good for a long period of time.


----------



## DCBluesman

Does anyone know if you can turn a perfume atomizer from a gherkin? [8D]


----------



## woodpens

> _Originally posted by TerryBlanchard_
> <br />I have found the best fountain pen so far is the Jr Gentleman.  My wife and I both write with fountain pens and used cross prior to me turning.  The JR Gentleman is the best I have found.  The ElGrande dries out in a couple of adys ant the JR stays good for a long period of time.


Have you tried any Junior Statesman pens yet? They are very much like the Jr. Gent, but a little fancier. They are my current favorite, and they do command a higher price in online sales.


----------



## gerryr

Lou, yes it can be done and you don't even have to buy any perfume for it.[]


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## Charles

Well, all of the above was fasinating reading, Whew! Also, what other site is griz talking about? I love turning and did not know of a second source for sharing information. Sorry if this wasn't part of the original thread. Just interested.


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## Skye

> _Originally posted by Charles_
> <br />Well, all of the above was fasinating reading, Whew! Also, what other site is griz talking about? I love turning and did not know of a second source for sharing information. Sorry if this wasn't part of the original thread. Just interested.



http://www.thepenshop.net

That's the second home to quite a few IAP people.


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## johnson

The horse is dead. How long you guys going to beat it???????????????


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## PenWorks

I've been around here long enough to see them beat a dead horse so bad that the horse reserects itself, only to get beaten again, again & again []


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## ed4copies

Anthony, you dog!!

I have avoided this thread after an initial reading and evaluation.  BUT, I saw your name and expected some new knowledge.

Shucks, I already knew THAT -Dead horses never buck or bite, so might as well beat them.

(here comes the ASPCA, followed by PETA-uh,oh, better go!!!)


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## Monty

> (here comes the ASPCA, followed by PETA-uh,oh, better go!!!)



People
Eating 
Tasty 
Animals ??????????


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## Randy_

> _Originally posted by Charles_
> <br />Well, all of the above was fasinating reading, Whew! Also, what other site is griz talking about? I love turning and did not know of a second source for sharing information. Sorry if this wasn't part of the original thread. Just interested.



Since Bob never mentioned any pen forum specifically by name, here are two other forums he might have been referring to??  One is Rich Kleinhenz's site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/penturners/ .  

The other is the home of the Freedom Pen Project(FPP) at 
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/index.php

Oh yeah, there is a third group called the Pen Makers Guild.  It is an "by invitation only" membership.  Non-members may not post; but the discussions are open for all to view and can be found at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PenMakersGuild/ .


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## DWK5150

> _Originally posted by Monty_
> <br />
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (here comes the ASPCA, followed by PETA-uh,oh, better go!!!)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> People
> Eating
> Tasty
> Animals ??????????
Click to expand...


WEll thats pretty good I think.


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## Dario

> _Originally posted by Randy__
> One is Rich Kleinhenz's site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/penturners/ .



Rich Kleinhenz started the yahoo penturners?!?! [:0][:0][:0]

Been dealing with him offline and never knew who he really is.  I did saw his site and know he is a PMG member but didn't knew this much!

I am so honored now! [8D][][^]


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## rtjw

> _Originally posted by Randy__
> <br />
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Originally posted by Charles_
> <br />Well, all of the above was fasinating reading, Whew! Also, what other site is griz talking about? I love turning and did not know of a second source for sharing information. Sorry if this wasn't part of the original thread. Just interested.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Since Bob never mentioned any pen forum specifically by name, here are two other forums he might have been referring to??  One is Rich Kleinhenz's site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/penturners/ .
> 
> The other is the home of the Freedom Pen Project(FPP) at
> http://www.sawmillcreek.org/index.php
> 
> Oh yeah, there is a third group called the Pen Makers Guild.  It is an "by invitation only" membership.  Non-members may not post; but the discussions are open for all to view and can be found at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PenMakersGuild/ .
Click to expand...


I think he was talking about what site GRIZ was mentioning. But the other groups are also good ones.

Thanks Teal..err I mean Randy[]


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## Chuck Key

> _Originally posted by Dario_
> <br />
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Originally posted by Randy__
> One is Rich Kleinhenz's site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/penturners/ .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rich Kleinhenz started the yahoo penturners?!?! [:0][:0][:0]
> 
> Been dealing with him offline and never knew who he really is.  I did saw his site and know he is a PMG member but didn't knew this much!
> 
> I am so honored now! [8D][][^]
Click to expand...


Here is a copy of the first message from Yahoo Penturners search from the home page at this site.  The penturners group was part of eGroups before Yahoo bought them out.

From: Bob Roberts
Date: 11/16/1999 3:33:00 PM
Subject: [penturners] Welcome to Pen Turners

Hi,

You've expressed interest in a pen turning email list.
Here it is!
I'll be learning how to run this as we go, so I appreciate your patience.
Let's have fun!
Thanks,

Bob Roberts


Regards
Chuckie


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## Dario

Chuckie,

Thanks, Rich actually informed me via email that he didn't start it.  My mistake for assuming it.  He is basically runnning it now though being the moderator.  My bad.[B)]


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## txbob

Chuckie,

Thanks for finding that and posting it.

Brings back a lot of memories. The 4th post to the list was from me.

txbob


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## woodpens

> _Originally posted by txbob_
> <br />Thanks for finding that and posting it.
> 
> Brings back a lot of memories. The 4th post to the list was from me.
> 
> txbob


Hey Bob,

I haven't seen you for quite a while! I just found my first post on the eGroup was #756 in June 2000. Bob Roberts was indeed the driving force for quite some time. It is funny how little was available to us back then. Five years is a long time in "pen-turner years." []


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## PenWorks

Interesting piece of pen turning history []

This thread has more turns in it, than a Formula 1 race []


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## wdcav1952

> _Originally posted by PenWorks_
> <br />Interesting piece of pen turning history []
> 
> This thread has more turns in it, than a Formula 1 race []



And a few crashes as well? []


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## rwbirt02

Holy Crap...I stand in awe.  I thought I was the drama queen of this organization...feeling kind of left out guys.  I leave for a couple of days, and you all are already going for a new record of how many posts you can concieve...have we reached a new record for the number of posts in a thread?  Next time I think about leaving my computer for a couple of days, I might have to reconsider-I might miss something really important.  Holy Crap...

By the way, does anyone in here know what a fountain pen nib is?Javascript:insertsmilie('[8D]')

P.S.
Just for S**ts and Giggles-I don't make a point to actually repair any instrument that comes across my bench...people would start expecting me to know what I'm doing...And I just can't deal with that kind of pressure.Javascript:insertsmilie('[]')  Yes repairing, and building instruments are two different things with many similarities.  Kind of like apples and oranges are both fruit.  Good evening gentlemen.


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## rwbirt02

P.P.S.
I know it's a horrible thing to keep P.S.ing like this, but damned if I don't look forward to seeing an 8th page for this thoroughbred, maybe we could all even send him off to the glue factory to make a few extra bucks for more pen kits...with 14kt nibs of course.('[8D]')


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## johnson

Did the ear twitch? Whack.  Dunno, better be safe. Whack,whack,whack,
whack. Pretty sure Dobbin is dead now.     Whack


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## tinker

> _Originally posted by rwbirt02_
> <br />P.P.S.
> I know it's a horrible thing to keep P.S.ing like this, but damned if I don't look forward to seeing an 8th page for this thoroughbred, maybe we could all even send him off to the glue factory to make a few extra bucks for more pen kits...with 14kt nibs of course.('[8D]')


If you are still reading this Ed, you can make your own bushings with the metal lathe. Make them from a harder material and they will last longer, and you can hold a better tolerance.

As for the rest of you, I don't think I have ever read posts with more paranoria and anger. 
Kind of reminds me about the time a visiting engineer told Norman Lear that he heard he was working on an eight track tape player. He went on to tell him he was wasting his time, that it could not be done. Norman said, "I'm glad you didn't tell me that yesterday, because we just did it."

Get off your high horses, there are pens that sell for $20,000.00. Are they really that much better than the kit pens?

I don't think Jeff had this in mind when he started this site. I am amazed he let it go on off topic the way it has. Kind of makes me afraid to ask a question. I wonder about anyone new to the site also. Doubt it is the way t grow the site.


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## johnson

Tail moved!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!whackwhackwhackwhackwhackwhack..............................


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## airrat

Monty People for the Eating of Tasty Animals is mine,  you stole it.  Im going to report you. [][][}]

Here you go Johnson.


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## Ben

Hi yall', It's been a while since I've posted, but I couldn't resist when I read this thread:

The way I see it, your first pen will more likely  be about a $1000-$1,500 pen. 

$200-$500 for a good lathe set-up.[:0]
$200-$250 for a sharpening sytem and jigs for tools.[:0]
$200 approx. for your drill press and jig setups for drill blanks.[:0]
$200-$500 Band SAW?[:0]
$100-$200 for your finishing products, CA glue, pen kits, mandrels, bushings, sandpaper, pen blanks, merchandising materials, display racks, labling software, ect...[:0]

Best of luck to you. If I were you, I'd check out some of these other guy's websites. Some of the VERY BEST penmakers in this craft are on THIS group; SOME OF THEIR FINEST LIMITED EDITION FOUNTAIN PENS WITH GOLD NIBS and IMPORTED RESINS & WOODS are ONLY SELLING in THE $300 RANGE! I understand that you don't intend on "stepping on any toes" here, but coming right out and saying what you did DOES come across a bit pretentious, and arrogant. Please post those pics as SOON as you can. I like everyone else here would LOVE to see what a $500 kit pen looks like.






Take care,
Ben


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## lkorn

> _Originally posted by airrat_
> <br />Monty People for the Eating of Tasty Animals is mine,  you stole it.  Im going to report you. [][][}]
> 
> Here you go Johnson.



The hometown for ugh, PETA is located here in Norfolk VA.  We have our own version of their acronym;

People
Embarrasing the
Tidewater (VA)
Area


----------



## TexasJohn

Ben - I hate to tell you this, but, you forgot to include the cost of the Slimline kit. Hi Yoo Silver - Awaaay


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## Daniel

I remember when topics on home stabalizing would look like this thread.
I also seem to recall a conversation about higher end kits. you know those impossibly high priced ones that would run $30 or more. that whole idea was also impossible. it was a conversation full of insults as well. Several times over.
I'm thinking that maybe the only reason the $500 kit pen is not more common. is that the idea still gets treated like this.
can you imagine what the person that introduced the CA finish went through.
Actually it would be interesting to go find some actual quotes from days past about things that are common to penturning today.
It is interesting that those that consider themselves at the top of this craft. got there at blinding speed having learned the craft form groups like this. Really practicing there craft with nothing more than what they have learned here. They will also be the loudest to argue against a new idea. Flaunting there experience along the way. Fresh minds bring fresh ideas. and fresh ideas bring innovation. 
We now have a $160 kit. according to my memory I could take you back to the original thread that introduced this idea. it was made on the yahoo group more than two years ago. made by one of the biggest promoter of advancmant in penturning, Richard Kleinhinz (sorry if I butchered your name again Richard) The idea was met fairly readily with all the poohs and gawfs about how kit suppliers would never run the risk when they can make so much money on $2 kits, remember an $8 kit was about as expensive as they got then. there could not be enough quality to justify a kit costing even $30 much less over $100. and on and on. People actually quit the group over these conversations. the next year found the Gent pen on the front page of the CSUSA Cat.
now the whole line of Gent's Statesman, upgraded versions of both of those pens, and the pie in the sky, utterly impossible Emporer are about the only pens worth talking about.
we have a kit that offers a solid gold nib, and have versions in silver. kit suppliers of course are loosing there shorts left and right just as the group members predicted. not
Ed Knock yourself out on that $500 pen. I hope to learn something from you along the way.


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## BigL

Well said.


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## johnson

Better strait dope on nibs than strait nibs on dope.......
{it's late and I'm bored}


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## huntersilver

My Dos centavos.....

Personally I enjoy selling writing insturments to people at craft shows in the 20-100 range.  With all of our beautiful woods and
acryics they are really are quite unique.  And my sense is, they are a real gem and bargin for the prices we are selling.   We do make beautitful functional pens that are afordable to most individuals.

Michael


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