# Turning between centers - another way



## Texatdurango

There has been a fair amount of discussion of turning between centers and questions always pop up and it seems like we've never really sat down and discussed the process from start to finish. Many folks are still confused as to what exactly is required to turn "center to center".

So, I took the time to photograph some steps today as I turned a pen and hopefully the following photo guide will help some to better understand what is involved and how simple this method of turning pen blanks really is. 

As with anything else, this is not _THE WAY_ of doing this, it's just _ANOTHER WAY_.... my way! Take from it what you will, modify as you see fit and hopefully this will be of some benefit. If you see something I left out or something you think will work better, by all means speak up and I'll add it in. This is designed as a guide to turning center to center not just showing my personal methods.

Step1. To turn between centers will take a few tools you may not have, namely a 60 degree "dead center" (lower right) and a 60 degree "live center" (also lower right). Other tools that you may find handy are the Beall collet chuck and a Sorby "steb center (both shown lower left). Here are most of the tools I will be using for this demo.







Step 2. First, mark a center on each side of your blank. This little tool is called a "Pen Pal" and I have no idea where I bought it but it is SO handy! The round thing you see is a magnet I glued to it because it hangs on the side of my shop fridge.






Step 3. I use an automatic center punch to mark a dimple in the blank for the centers to zero in on.






Step 4. Mount the square blank between the steb center (left) and a live center (right). Here I use a 6" tool rest.






Step 5. Through the magic of the internet, the blank is now round. That was SO easy! I turn all my blanks to just under .750" so they fit nice and snug in the 3/4" collet and don't allow for any wobble.






Step 6. A benefit of rounding the blank before drilling is that I can see exactly what the pen will look like as I decide how to position the tubes before cutting. Here I decided I want the darker pattern on the cap.






Step 7. Again, the blanks mysteriously cut themselves on the band saw and one of them hopped into the Beall collet chuck for drilling. I find this method of drilling to be very accurate and alllows me to drill larger holes in narrower blanks than I would on the drill press. The bit shown is a 37/64" but I drill 39/64" holes into 3/4" blanks with no worry. To aid in accuracy I always start the hole with a center drill which is shown in photo one just under and to the left of the twist drill bits. These specialized short bits allow for no wobble or flexing when finding the dead center of a blank. It's nice to see a hole dead center at the entry side AND be dead center at the opposite end.






Step 8. After drilling I square up the ends with a little sanding tool I made. I make little delrin bushings for every pen kit I make. The little bushings keep the blank centered on the sander post. 






Step 9. Now we have a squared up blank ready to mount on the lathe and turn to size. Oops, I need to remove my little bushing first!






Step 10. Here we have a top and bottom blank with their bushings inserted, ready to turn. Note the red markings on the blanks, these make sure I keep the top and bottom oriented. It's hard to see in the first photo but these centers have 60 degree holes in the ends which allow the 60 degree centers to center up the blanks when turning. These special bushings are available from several forum members but I just take a 60 degree center drill and drill out the bushings I buy from my kit vendors or make my own on my metal lathe.






Step 11. Here we go turning a blank mounted between a dead and live 60 degree center. The blank is snugged up with the tailstock and not much pressure is required to hold the blank and to keep it from slipping. You may recognize the tool I am using, it is my favorite for turning down a blank but use whatever you are comfortable with. Also note the short tool rest, which I think is a key tool in turning between centers since it allows you to get up close to your work without fowling on the centers. Rick Herrel (rherrell) on the forum makes these neat little tool rests.






Step 12. Here we are with the blanks turned down just proud of the bushings. The blank now comes off and we say adios the the bushings.






Step 13. With the blank mounted back on the lathe between the two centers, I sand the blank down to size. Please note that sanding this way keeps any metal dust from contaminating the blank since the sand paper doesn't even touch any metal. I like Abranet and will sand the blank starting with 400 then 600 before removing. *Note:* I apply only enough pressure to make sure the live center rotates freely as it doesn't take much to hold the blank between the centers. DO NOT over tighten the tailstock else you might stretch the brass so it doesn't fit properly over mating kit parts.






Step 14. Since kit parts can vary from kit to kit and rather than rely on bushings, I measure the mating kit parts then check the blank to make sure it is where I want it to be. When doing a CA finish I will sand the blank slightly undersize then build up the blank with CA.






Step 15. When I'm satisfied with the diameter, I clean the blank with alcohol and do a quick wipe with Mylands Sanding sealer which REALLY brings out the colors of the wood. Again, notice that the towel comes no where near the metal centers.






Step 16. Now for the CA and thanks to Don Ward aka it's virgil, they are Bounty towels! :biggrin: Again... Look ma, no bushings! No bushings for the CA to stick to, neither metal nor delrin! The delrin bushings fall into the 'to each their own" category, personally I don't see the need since they just add a bit of hassle with the CA trying to stick to them and I want this to be as hassle free as possible. 






Step 17. Here we go, a few good coats of CA and ready to sand. *At this point I have learned to sit the blanks aside and cure for at least a day before sanding.* I got to thinking once that if CA outgasses enough to fog over plating on a kit a day or two after assembly, then the CA is still curing.  I have a theory that sanding freshly set CA causes deeper scratch marks in the soft CA than letting it sit and get harder.  So it is my belief that letting the blank sit a day before sanding makes the blank harder and doesn't get scratched as easily so you get a better finish with less deep scratches to remove.






Step 18. In my opinion, applying CA without bushings also allows CA to roll over the edge, and soaking up into the blank thus sealing the ends of the blank as well. This _MIGHT_ help in the long run by keeping moisture out of the blank during actual use but has not been clinically proven! :biggrin:






Step 19. So, here we go, two blanks turned, sanded and a snappy finish applied all between two centers.






Step 20. Before sanding the CA, here is a little step I like to do and it REALLY smoothes the blanks out allowing me to start sanding with 600 grit rather than coarser grit paper.  Running a skew across the CA turns away many of the ridges left from applying the CA and allows one to start with finer grits thus doing away with the deeper coarser scratches left by the coarser grits.  This only works if you build up the CA a bit over the finished diameter then trim and sand it down to the final diameter. I find that this gives a killer DEEP looking finish to the pen. After skewing the blank I'll do away with 400 or 500 grit and start with dry 600, 800, 1000 Abranet, plastic polish (to check for minor scratches) then off to the buffer.






Step 21. Now and then I get carried away with my paper towels and get a little CA on the centers. I insert a 7mm bushing between them and using a knife, clean the glue off. The bushing between them also rotates the live center for cleaning.






Step 22. A little 400 grit abranet and the centers are shiny as new even if the lousy photo doesn't show it!






Step 23. Here is the result of my efforts, another nice pen and I didn't even have to stop and try to remember where on earth my mandrels are hidden these days! :biggrin:






Hope you enjoyed reading but more importantly I hope this will provide some answers for someone.


----------



## rjwolfe3

Wow! George, that is one of the best tutorials I have ever read. I enjoyed every bit and even learned what I have been doing wrong. Thank you so much!


----------



## Rangertrek

*Very Nice*

You did a great job with the step-by-step instructions on "your' method of turning between centers.  The photos are a great help with understanding the method.  I have been trying something very similar to this on my last few pens, based on some of (I think) your prior posts on this subject.  I am gradually moving away from the mandrels.

I will need to give that last skew technique a try.  It will seam hard for me to go back on a finished blank with a tool. 
Thanks again for the demonstration.   Well done!!


----------



## Phunky_2003

Very nice tutorial George.  Clears up quite a bit!  

Thats an awesome pen too.  Spectacular!!  Your work amazes me.

James


----------



## bitshird

Nicely done George. easy and concise.


----------



## LEAP

Nicely done George, thanks so much for sharing.


----------



## Rmartin

That's an excellent post, but I have 1 very very important question!


You have a fridge in your shop?​ 
That is too cool!​ 
Seriously, I ended up with a groove in my live center while turning between center. Is this due to a poor quality live center, or am I tighting too much?​


----------



## rjwolfe3

Was thinking some more and was wondering if anyone knew where to find one of those Pen Pals?


----------



## jleiwig

If you remember where you got that penpal I'd sure love to know!  

Great job George.  I do mine almost exactly the same way, although I'm partial to Viva myself!


----------



## rjwolfe3

I found the PenPal site - http://bestwoodtools.com/

It's in their catalog.


----------



## rej19

Excellent! Thanks for sharing your methods.


----------



## Seer

Now that is a great lesson and the pen is gorgeous.


----------



## Dalecamino

Thank you George . This is right on time for ME . Oh , and beautiful pen .


----------



## Chief Hill

Great job on this very very helpful...


----------



## PTownSubbie

George,

Are those normal bushings that you would use on a mandrel or the special between center bushings?

Great instructions BTW! Thanks a ton. I have tried a few of these things before but have been afraid of too much pressure on the blank causing the tube ends to flare.


----------



## Texatdurango

Rmartin said:


> That's an excellent post, but I have 1 very very important question!
> 
> 
> You have a fridge in your shop?​
> That is too cool!​
> 
> Seriously, I ended up with a groove in my live center while turning between center. Is this due to a poor quality live center, or am I tighting too much?​


 
Well yes But... it's a small one, just large enough to hold the microwave and toaster oven! Any larger and I couldn't sit my tea water dispenser next to it.  When I go out to the shop for the day... I don't have to go back in the house for much ! 

A groove in your live center! You mean where the brass tube actually cut a groove in the 60 degree point? If that's the case I would say you're live center is dead. I had one last year that had a bad bearing and there was no way to lubricate or change it so I just tossed it. You have to have it snug enough to at least put tension on the center and make it spin but I have mine loose enough that a heavy hand during sanding would stop the blank.


----------



## Texatdurango

PTownSubbie said:


> George,
> 
> Are those normal bushings that you would use on a mandrel or the special between center bushings?
> 
> Great instructions BTW! Thanks a ton. I have tried a few of these things before but have been afraid of too much pressure on the blank causing the tube ends to flare.


 
I have a hodgepodge of bushings, most of which are the $3 variety that you buy from Craft Supply, Beartooth, etc.  I just mount them in a collet chuck and drill them with a 60 degree center drill bit.

I stopped ordering bushings with the newer kits I try and just make my own from steel or aluminum rod.  

As far as pressure on the blanks, that's a good point, I think I'll add a note on the tutorial.  I only apply enough pressure to keep the live center spinning.  When I first started turning this way I was always checking the tubes to see if I was spreading them but never noticed any problems.

Everyone just remember... don't crank the tailstock down!


----------



## Larry in Harrow

Great tutorial George.  Basically the way I turn blanks and I also have been using factory kit bushings center drilled.  I've got some of Johnnycnc's bushings coming that I can't wait to test drive
I use the small bags that kit parts come in over the centers (held with small elastics) when sealing and finishing to keep the centers cleaner.  Less cleanup, just slip off the bags and throw them out.


----------



## spaceengravers

For those of you turning between centers, I wonder if you find it an issue when doing slims or similar pens with two halves.  Since I'm new, when I'm turning the slims, I like to see the top and bottom halves together so I can make sure their contours match each other.  Is this not and issue for most of you?

Mike


----------



## Rmartin

Texatdurango said:


> A groove in your live center! You mean where the brass tube actually cut a groove in the 60 degree point? If that's the case I would say you're live center is dead. I had one last year that had a bad bearing and there was no way to lubricate or change it so I just tossed it. You have to have it snug enough to at least put tension on the center and make it spin but I have mine loose enough that a heavy hand during sanding would stop the blank.


 
I think the groove was caused by the bushing. I didn't even notice it until turning between centers one day and started getting a vibration, which I knew couldn't be. But it was. I am still able to use the center with a mandrel with no vibration. I have since replaced that center, but I'm kinda afraid to ruin another turning between centers.


----------



## tgraytn

George,

This is FANTASTIC and much appreciated!  Thanks again for taking all of the time to photo each step and follow that with the instructions.


----------



## HawksFeather

It is always nice to read about how things are done and even better when I can see how things are done.  Nice work.

Jerry


----------



## mick

George, FANTASTIC tutorial! Anyone thats reads this thread should have no questions about turning between centers or TBC. :biggrin: Our methods are basically alike EXCEPT I don't round my blanks before drilling as I use a 4 jaw chuck to hold them. HOWEVER after reading that  one of the reasons you round them is to see what they will look like ....I may be converted. Too many times I've got a pen roughed out and wished I'd have cut it or oriented it differently.


----------



## Texatdurango

mick said:


> George, FANTASTIC tutorial! Anyone thats reads this thread should have no questions about turning between centers or TBC. :biggrin: Our methods are basically alike EXCEPT I don't round my blanks before drilling as I use a 4 jaw chuck to hold them. HOWEVER after reading that one of the reasons you round them is to see what they will look like ....I may be converted. Too many times I've got a pen roughed out and wished I'd have cut it or oriented it differently.


 
Join the club!  I can't remember how many times I became frustrated after guessing at which end of a blank would look best as a cap or bottom then cutting, drilling a blank in the vice, glueing the tubes in, squaring the ends and putting it on the lathe turning it down only to find the "inside" of the blank wasn't as nice as the outside! 

I sure wasted a lot of good glue and tubes that way!


----------



## nava1uni

George,
  Thank you once again for a well thought, and implemented tutorial.  Being a visual learner it helped clarify the technique for me.


----------



## CaptG

Very nice George, and well appreciated.  Thank you.


----------



## leehljp

'Bout time someone did full a tutorial with picts, and it couldn't have come from a nicer guy!  :wink: :biggrin: Thanks and congratulations for doing such a great job!

Sure was nice looking at all the picts and I am sure this one will be linked in answers to TBC in the future.


----------



## johncrane

l also agree with Hank! great job George!


----------



## cnirenberg

George,
This is one of the best tutorials I have read in a while.  Fantastic job.  And for the doubters, just look at the quality of the pens that are produced.  I am a bit jealous of the fridge, but hey I have a washer/dryer, 3 bikes, a water heater and everything else that doesn't fit in the house in my garage...er, I mean my shop.


----------



## snyiper

Great job adds clarity to the procedure...Thanks for the work you put into it...


----------



## Len Shreck

I see the Pen Pal in the online catalog but can not find it to order. I looked in the index and all threw the site the only place I see it is in the online catalog so I guess I will have to call them and see whats up. Thanks for the link. Len


----------



## jleiwig

George, 

Is your dead center a special one?  Mine barely stuck out an inch out of my headstock, but yours seems to stick out a couple inches at least, if not more.  That would make my life so much easier if I had one like that.

Also If you like I can put this into a document for Keith to send to the library.


----------



## SonOfMartin

Could you post some information about your sander and busing adapters?  That looks like a great idea (which of course I want to 'borrow')!

Please?


----------



## HSTurning

More or less ho I do it.  
I don't use a pen pal I just use a utlity blade and just scratch a line from corner to corner.
I drill on a drill press and glue the tubes in to the square blank.   I do like the idea of seeing the rounded blank first.  I just need to save up some money for all the rest of the toys I mean tools I need/want.
I don't use the skew to clean up the CA I just start with a rougher sandpaper.  I was thinking of getting a scraper or modifying the flat skew I don't use anymore to do the same thing.


----------



## Jmhoff10500

Dang, out of all the tutorials i have read this was the one that eliminated the most of my questions. It covered:
Turning Between Centers
Ca Finish
What sandpapers to use
Pen layout
Clean up
and not to mention an awesome pen!!! Thanks!!!


----------



## dustmaker

I am not yet turning between centers, but intend to after the holidays when a little more cash frees up.  I have, however, been using the skew to smooth out the CA based on one of your earlier posts.  It works great.  I can get everything smoothed out and can go directly to MM.  I think it makes the process easier and may save a few minutes of sanding time.  
Great tutorial.  Thanks for taking the time and effort to put this out for all the rest of us.


----------



## hilltopper46

Great tutorial!!

For those (like me) to whom it is not obvious, the center punch treatment may not be appropriate for brittle acrylic blanks.  It's a sick feeling when you see a pretty acrylic shatter when you center punch it (DAMHIKT).

The alternative is to cut it square as possible - I have even chucked it up and faced it with a sharp parting tool to give the center drill bit a nice square surface to start on.


----------



## Daniel

Great job George, But what sort of shop has a fridge? I already had my doubts at that point but then when you get to the part of things wondering around to actual useful places I realize that you are full blown denial about owning a shop at all. Things migrate in my shop, but only to nooks and crannies I don't even know exist.


----------



## fitzman163

That was fantastic it has answered a lot of the questions I had. Thank you very much.


----------



## Pen_Turner

Thanks George, That was VERY helpful.


----------



## Jim15

Thank you George, great tutorial.


----------



## Texatdurango

cnirenberg said:


> …. I am a bit jealous of the fridge, but hey I have a washer/dryer, 3 bikes, a water heater and everything else that doesn't fit in the house in my garage...er, I mean my shop.


I guess a washer/dryer trumps a fridge any day of the week… that's too funny! :biggrin:




jleiwig said:


> ….Is your dead center a special one? ....


Nope, just your plane-jane mt2 dead center, 3.1” long




SonOfMartin said:


> Could you post some information about your sander and busing adapters? That looks like a great idea ….


Someone made these things last year but I forgot who, if someone remembers please post their name since they are a good idea. I made mine out of a solid piece of steel and simply take an adhesive backed sanding disk, cut a strip then punch some holes with an old leather punch. I don’t even bother rounding the pads, just stick one on. The white inserts are made from delrin rods and turned down to fit the ID of the tubes I use. The center hole provides a SNUG fit on the sander shaft. See the photo below.




HSTurning said:


> ….I don't use the skew to clean up the CA I just start with a rougher sandpaper. I was thinking of getting a scraper or modifying the flat skew I don't use anymore to do the same thing.


Good idea! Rough sandpaper is a HUGE culprit and takes a LOT of sanding to remove the deep scratches which try their darndest to stay ‘till the bitter end and ruin an otherwise nice shiny finish!

Smoothing the CA “ridges” on a blank with a skew after applying CA has made my finishes look so much better and I think it has a lot to do with the fact that I start sanding with 600 grit rather than 320 or 400 like I used to. I have even heard of some folks starting with 150, 180 or 240…… I shudder when I think of the deep scratches those grits are _introducing_ to a blank.


----------



## gmanblue

Great Job  may have to try it.


----------



## MarkHix

rjwolfe3 said:


> Was thinking some more and was wondering if anyone knew where to find one of those Pen Pals?



I don't know where to get one today but after the next time I go to George's shop, we might be able to have an auction for one!

Nice tutorial George!


----------



## Texatdurango

MarkHix said:


> I don't know where to get one today but after the next time I go to George's shop, we might be able to have an auction for one!
> 
> Nice tutorial George!


 
Oh that's nice........ steal from an old guy trying to make ends meet on a fixed income pension! :frown:

Heck, why wait for an auction....... Do I hear a bid? :biggrin:


----------



## CSue

George, thank you!  There isn't much more I can say that hasn't already been said.  It is the best tutorial I've seen & read in awhile!  Thanks for posting!


----------



## MarkHix

George, it is common knowledge that all you retired guys are just rolling in the dough!


----------



## ablair

awesome tutorial, keep it up!


----------



## Freethinker

Fantastic tutorial. I am going to try it just the way you've outlined.....EXCEPT, I don't know if I have the nerve eek to present a skew to the blank after adding all my coats of CA.

I am very comfortable with the skew, and do a great deal of my turning with one, but it seems you'd have to be mighty careful to only take off maybe 1 or 2 thousands so as to not cut all the way through the CA in some place.............has this ever been a major concern of yours? 

Have you ever measured --roughly-- how many thousands you are adding when applying , for instance, 8 or 10 coats of thin CA to the blank? 

 A hard question to answer, I know, since so many factors are involved; application pressure, viscosity of the CA used, number of coats, etc...........but I'm just trying to get a rough idea of how much leeway, so to speak, you have when you put that skew up against that blank to flatten the CA.

Thanks for the tutorial though. Good job.


----------



## Texatdurango

I've got a few thoughts in blue below......



Freethinker said:


> Fantastic tutorial. I am going to try it just the way you've outlined.....EXCEPT, I don't know if I have the nerve eek to present a skew to the blank after adding all my coats of CA.
> 
> I am very comfortable with the skew, and do a great deal of my turning with one, but it seems you'd have to be mighty careful to only take off maybe 1 or 2 thousands so as to not cut all the way through the CA in some place.............has this ever been a major concern of yours?
> 
> No, because I sneak up on the blank so carefully that taking *thick* fuzz off is too much at a time! If you think about shaving _*thin*_ fuzz off rather than cutting the CA off, you will do a lot better at it than you think. YES, I have cut through the CA into the wood and it's easy to tell because white fuzz is CA, colored fuzz isn't.  If I cut through to wood I simply stop and apply more CA!
> 
> Have you ever measured --roughly-- how many thousands you are adding when applying , for instance, 8 or 10 coats of thin CA to the blank?
> 
> A hard question to answer, I know, since so many factors are involved; application pressure, viscosity of the CA used, number of coats, etc...........but I'm just trying to get a rough idea of how much leeway, so to speak, you have when you put that skew up against that blank to flatten the CA.
> 
> It's easier to determine than you think. Have a look at the caliper readout in step 14 then in step 18. Those are real readings, the first is the blank turned down, the second is after the CA is applied.
> 
> Thanks for the tutorial though. Good job.


----------



## Paul in OKC

spaceengravers said:


> For those of you turning between centers, I wonder if you find it an issue when doing slims or similar pens with two halves.  Since I'm new, when I'm turning the slims, I like to see the top and bottom halves together so I can make sure their contours match each other.  Is this not and issue for most of you?
> 
> Mike



Not really a problem, Mike, if you use the bushing sizes for your guide. If you run larger slim lines and make your own center bands or don't use center bands. you may need to come up with something different, or use calipers.


----------



## Freethinker

Texatdurango said:


> I've got a few thoughts in blue below......



Good answers.

Thanks.


----------



## tgraytn

I received my dead center from Penturners Products the other day (Super fast shipping and GREAT quality) and used it tonight for the first time.  What do I think?  BYE BYE Mandrel!!!  This is definitely the way to go!  I love it!


----------



## jleiwig

With George's Permission, I have converted this thread to a PDF for people to save to their computer.

http://www.penturners.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=20836&stc=1&d=1260887257

Hope it helps!  :biggrin:


----------



## rjwolfe3

Woot thank you Justin - you beat me to it!


----------



## jleiwig

rjwolfe3 said:


> Woot thank you Justin - you beat me to it!


 
No problem.  I usually do it for myself anyway on threads that interest me.  I asked George if I could share last week sometime, and today is the first day I've had the chance to get it done.


----------



## larryc

Great tutorial. I have started TBC with some acrylic blanks that I had with the brass tubes already installed. I liked your idea of the sanding tool so much that I made one using a mandrel nut (since I don't need the mandrel nut anymore) and a 1/4-32 bolt with the head cut off.

I guess I am missing something. In Step 10 you show the upper and lower blanks with bushings installed but in Step 11 it looks as if you are only turning one blank. Is this correct - you turn each blank individually? Is there a way to turn and finish both blanks at the same time as is done using a mandrel, or is this one of the downsides of TBC?


----------



## Texatdurango

larryc said:


> Great tutorial. I have started TBC with some acrylic blanks that I had with the brass tubes already installed. I liked your idea of the sanding tool so much that I made one using a mandrel nut (since I don't need the mandrel nut anymore) and a 1/4-32 bolt with the head cut off.
> 
> *I guess I am missing something.* In Step 10 you show the upper and lower blanks with bushings installed but in Step 11 it looks as if you are only turning one blank. Is this correct - you turn each blank individually? Is there a way to turn and finish both blanks at the same time as is done using a mandrel, or is this one of the downsides of TBC?


 
No, you are not missing anything, I just put both blanks together for the photo. When turning between centers I turn one blank at a time. I've never given any thought to mounting two blanks at once since I guess I have done it this way so long, I see no benefit to trying two at once.

To be honest, I don't make that many kit pens any more so when I do, I'm never in a hurry and to keep from getting bored I will change my routine around now and then.  One time I will turn and sand both blanks before finishing, other times I will turn, sand, and apply the finish to one blank before doing the second one since it doesn't matter.

After turning center to center for a while you will get into a routine and soon will start finding your own little favorite tricks and short cuts. With all the positives of turning between centers, turning two blanks at once isn't a downside in my mind, it's a hassle.


----------



## tgraytn

Will this method work using an acrylic blank?  In other words, will the steb center hold the acrylic blanks?


----------



## jleiwig

tgraytn said:


> Will this method work using an acrylic blank? In other words, will the steb center hold the acrylic blanks?


 
If it's a fragile blank, you may want to make sure to drill a small hole first over your center mark so that pressure from the points doesn't split the blank.


----------



## rjwolfe3

Funny you should mention that Justin because I just did that, lol. I have five different "Steeler" colors type blanks that I am trying to find just the right one for the wife. I managed to split the only one that looked right!


----------



## Texatdurango

While talking about steb centers I thnk we need to remember that the center point of a steb center* is spring loaded* and the center point itself will not be the part of the steb center that is applying the pressure on the blank when you tighten it up. The *outer teeth* will be applying most if not all of the pressure while the center only aligns the blank initially. But as Justin points out, the end of the blank that faces the tailstock is most commonly held by just the 60 degree live center which is applying all of the force to the center of the blank. 

Are ya'll using 60 degree center drills to drill your holes (shown below)? 

The only time I use a center drill is on very fragile blanks where the spring loaded center punch itself might cause a piece to chip out when I mark the initial center. Then, I will use either a #1 or #2 center drill shown below, that way I will have a 60 degree chamfer for the steb center point to fit into rather than just the edge of a hole from a spiral drill bit, but I don't believe much pressure is being applied at the center of these drives, I can push mine in half way with my finger.


----------



## handplane

Another GREAT tutorial George.  I started doing this recently and it has made a huge difference in my work.  I would like to know about the tool you use to turn your blanks.  What is it?  Maybe I missed something but it looks like a flat scraper.


----------



## rjwolfe3

I should clarify that I shattered my blank with a center punch and not with the center. I now drill a small hole to center the blank instead.


----------



## Texatdurango

handplane said:


> ..... I would like to know about the tool you use to turn your blanks. What is it? Maybe I missed something but it looks like a flat scraper.


It is one of those carbide insert turning tools that was all the rage around here earlier this year.  I made this one and ordered a slew of carbide tips for it this summer.  Due to the angle of the very sharp carbide cutter it cuts rather than scrapes.  At first I thought... what a piece of crap, what's everyone so excited about?"  I soon found the proper angle of attack and where the "edge sweet spots" were and found that it was perfect for truestone blanks as it cut through them like a warm knife through margarine and I didn’t have to stop and re-sharpen every few minutes like I did with my skew!  Now it is the tool I grab when I start turning a pen blank, bowl or just about anything.


----------



## tgraytn

Thanks George and Justin for the information!


----------



## StatProf

Awesome! Just awesome!


----------



## TellicoTurning

jleiwig said:


> With George's Permission, I have converted this thread to a PDF for people to save to their computer.
> 
> http://www.penturners.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=20836&stc=1&d=1260887257
> 
> Hope it helps!  :biggrin:



Thanks Justin... that saves me from having to create my own.... 

George, this is definitely a tut for the shop.... I'll print and put in my notebook out there... I don't keep a computer in the shop ... too dirty.. don't have a wireless connection and would have to run a cable the 50+ feet to the shop... great job on the tutorial.


----------



## Texatdurango

After posting the above tutorial, Justin (Jleiwig) came up with what I thought was a good idea so I acted on it and here are the changes.

To begin with this is NOT necessary to turn between centers, it is for those efficient (or lazy ) people who don't like changing out the mt-2 steb center, mounting the Beall collet chuck then removing the Beall chuck and mounting the mt-2 dead center. All that on and off, on and off, on and off, mounting the steb drive then knocking it out, mounting then tightening and using the Beall collet chuck then loosening and removing it to mount the mt-2 dead center wears a guy out!  *PLUS...* this puts the pen blank farther away from the headstock giving you some elbow room to work the blank! 

Now with the "*New and Improved*" method it's a simple matter of mounting the Beall collet chuck then a twist of the collet tightening nut to change out between steb drive, round blank then finally the dead center for final finishing.

Here are a few photos to illustrate what I am talking about, hope it makes sense.

First I bought a 1/2" steb drive, P/N 161-0161 from Craft Supply. I chose their center because it appeared to have a larger diameter shank in which to modify. The steb drive looked similar to this (mine is a 1/2", this looks to be the 1" size) before I turned it down to fit into a 3/4" collet:





I turned down the rear section to .748" to fit snugly into my 3/4" collet. Here is the modified center:






Now the steb drive can easily be inserted into my 3/4" collet so I can turn down a square blank:






Here is the steb drive mounted in the collet:






Now I'm ready to grab onto a square blank and turn it round:






Now here is where the ease of all this becomes apparent. With a simple twist of the collet nut, the steb drive is removed and the blank is inserted in the same collet for further working:






Once the blank has been worked by shaping, drilling and/or tapping, it is removed by a simple twist of the collet nut then the modified mt-2 dead center is installed for final turning, sanding and finishing. The dead center mod was easy, I simply mounted the dead center in the headstock of my metal lathe, brought up the tailstock with a 60 degree dimple to make sure the center was indeed centered then cut away about 1/2" of the taper. Then I mounted my collet chuck and inserted the dead center in backwards grasping the 1/2" true area and turned off the rear to match the front diameter. I made mine 5/8" diameter since I use that collet size a lot when holding my custom pens for final tapping and sizing. 






From here on out, everything is the same as in the above tutorial:






So there you have it, the Beall chuck stayed in place from start to finish and in my opinion is worth the purchase of the steb drive and modified mt-2 dead center.


----------



## Glass Scratcher

George, fantastic as always!  Thanks.


----------



## rjwolfe3

Thanks for sharing, George, now I just have to find someone with a metal lathe to make me a 3/4" steb drive and 3/4" dead center.


----------



## bgibb42

rjwolfe3 said:


> Thanks for sharing, George, now I just have to find someone with a metal lathe to make me a 3/4" steb drive and 3/4" dead center.



Yeah, me too.  This has been a great tutorial, George.


----------



## Texatdurango

Brian and Rob,

If you want to buy the steb drive, I'll turn it down for you, just pay the postage! Also, a few folks have asked about the dead centers so I'm thinking of buying a few mt-3 dead centers and turning them to 3/4" like I did mine below. I found a carbide tipped mt-3 dead center that came with my letal lathe that I never used so turned it to 3/4" this afternoon, so now I have both 3/4" and 5/8" centers and they run as true as if they were in the headstock spindle.

I'm guessing a carbide tipped mt-3 center will run around $10-$12 so with postage and $10 for my work, they might come to around $25-$30. If interested, let me know, if I get a few folks interested, they can split the shipping so might even be less.

Here are the ones I made today to get an idea of what I'm talking about, top is 3/4" dia, bottom is 5/8" dia. The larger center is pretty long so I'm thinking of shortening it a bit:


----------



## rjwolfe3

George I am interested. But I may have to wait to get that tax return deposit. Hopefully in less then a month.


----------



## bgibb42

I'm interested as well, but I have the same problem as Rob.


----------



## rstought

George...

I'm interested in both offers - I have a 1/2" Stebcenter that I'd love to have modified, and I still have a few $$$ left over from Christmas, so I could go for the dead center right away, too.

Let me know when/if you are ready, and I'll be your first customer...


----------



## Bree

Excellent tutorial.  Thx for sharing!!


----------



## lorbay

Excellent tutorial. Thx for sharing!! Also I am interested in the dead centre and if you can get me a steb centre I wouls take that too rather than me ship you one and then back at me.

Lin.


----------



## Texatdurango

I was just informed that there is another thread where folks are having dead centers made and I don't want to step on any toes so I will refer anyone interested in having centers made to: http://www.penturners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=55016&highlight=dead+center

I was really just doing this as a favor for those with no means to make their own rather than start a little dead center making operation. 

Thanks for understanding.


----------



## Sberger

Great job, and thanks for sharing.  You are fortunate to have both the tools, knowledge, and ability.  We are fortunate that you share.  Good man!


----------



## rjwolfe3

> I was just informed that there is another thread where folks are having dead centers made and I don't want to step on any toes so I will refer anyone interested in having centers made to: http://www.penturners.org/forum/show...ht=dead+center
> 
> I was really just doing this as a favor for those with no means to make their own rather than start a little dead center making operation.
> 
> Thanks for understanding.



I thought he was doing just the dead centers? I am looking for the steb drive as well. If he is doing both then I guess I can wait for a few more months to get them from him.


----------



## jleiwig

I don't think your stepping on toes.  No offense to Paul, but we know he's busy enough with his Vise list and now the pen press.  I think he should just focus on those.


----------



## Texatdurango

I placed a thread in the individual classifieds for those interested..... http://www.penturners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=56217


----------



## Paul in OKC

Texatdurango said:


> I was just informed that there is another thread where folks are having dead centers made and I don't want to step on any toes so I will refer anyone interested in having centers made to: http://www.penturners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=55016&highlight=dead+center
> 
> I was really just doing this as a favor for those with no means to make their own rather than start a little dead center making operation.
> 
> Thanks for understanding.



Hey, I wear steel toed boots, so step away! Actually, all I did was volunteer to turn down a carbide tipped center to see if it could be done and what it would take. Got it done, and may do another, but with  my vises and presses, I don't do well keeping those in line let alone adding another project. I will be trying something soon on a center project, but that is on the back burner at the moment. So turn away, George, and thanks.


----------



## barrysj

George,

Thanks for the awesome tutorial.

When you have time can you include the steps you take to buff it up.  I'm sick of going through micromesh and making a mess over the lathe with the slury build up.  Looking to purchase a buffing wheel soon....already ordered Johnny's bushings for TBC operations and can't wait to get off the mandrel blues.


----------



## Texatdurango

barrysj said:


> Thanks for the awesome tutorial.
> 
> When you have time can you include the steps you take to buff it up. I'm sick of going through micromesh and making a mess over the lathe with the slury build up. Looking to purchase a buffing wheel soon....already ordered Johnny's bushings for TBC operations and can't wait to get off the mandrel blues.


 
I'm in the process of working up a little tutorial on making a cap for a kitless pen. It will be acrylic so I'll be sure and include some buffing sequences rather than just end it at the sanding stage.

In the mean time if you didn't catch it, I started a thread about buffing supplies a few weeks ago; http://www.penturners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=55476. It's not a step by step type discussion, rather a discussion on different things that can make a difference with your buffing. 

I always believe there is room to go outside the realm of "pen turning" supplies. White diamond buffing compound is a perfect example, it's a middle of the road buffing compound just a few notches up from fine sand paper never intended to produce a lustrous shine like a fine plastic polishing compound does but it’s all we know because it’s all the pen making supply companies sell us. Buffing wheels are the same, we apply very fine scratches with the junk buffing wheels we are sold then complain that buffing doesn’t work.


----------



## philb

Hi,

Nice tutorial! 

Just curious before having a go! Do you ever have any problem with rounding the blank over slightly at the ends, mainly when sanding either with or without the finish? Just I know most kits look better with a crisp joint between barrel and part and didnt know if you use a block or just the sandpaper in hand?

Cheers PHIL


----------



## Texatdurango

philbaldwin said:


> Hi,
> 
> Nice tutorial!
> 
> Just curious before having a go! Do you ever have any problem with rounding the blank over slightly at the ends, mainly when sanding either with or without the finish? Just I know most kits look better with a crisp joint between barrel and part and didnt know if you use a block or just the sandpaper in hand?
> 
> Cheers PHIL


 
Actually I keep a diamond sharpening card near my lathe and will quite often use it, laying the sanding paper against the back side but more often than not, will just use the folded sandpaper strips.


----------



## turbowagon

I think I need to start using a caliper to check measurements after finishing.  I'm building up too much of a finish, and not skewing or sanding it down enough, and my finish is a bit proud of the hardware.

Any other tips for getting a perfect fit after finishing?


----------



## macsplinter

Thanks a lot for all the info.


----------



## deskessentials

Very nice tutorial!  The photos are excellent.  I'll definitely have to try this soon.


----------



## Texatdurango

turbowagon said:


> I think I need to start using a caliper to check measurements after finishing. I'm building up too much of a finish, and not skewing or sanding it down enough, and my finish is a bit proud of the hardware.
> 
> Any other tips for getting a perfect fit after finishing?


 
I don't know about a perfect fit but have learned one thing.  I used to write the pen part dimensions on the instruction sheet so I would know the EXACT dimensions when using calipers to check the blank(s).

That all ceased when I learned that many kit tolerances are horrible.  A part could be .512" in one kit and .514" in another.  So now when I do a pen, I lay out the parts and check them instead of assuming they will be a certain diameter!


----------



## philipff

Great teaching effort!  THanks.  Phil


----------



## altaciii

Great job, George.  I'm always looking for better ways to do things and your tutorials always help.  Thanks


----------



## RyanNJ

Very Cool method. I have not gotten a chance to read through the whole thread yet but i am working on it. If you already covered these i am sorry for asking
So to try this i need to part that goes into the headstock and special bushings?

where did you get the tool rest and lathe drilling supplies


----------



## randyrls

Texatdurango said:


> That all ceased when I learned that many kit tolerances are horrible.  A part could be .512" in one kit and .514" in another.  So now when I do a pen, I lay out the parts and check them instead of assuming they will be a certain diameter!



George;  Yes!  Especially the cigar style pens are all over the place depending on the supplier.  I have had bushings and pen fittings differ by .018

With a digital caliper, set the caliper on the fitting and press the "Zero" button.  Now the caliper will show how much material you need to remove to make a perfect fit (plus finish).


----------



## turbowagon

randyrls said:


> with a digital caliper, set the caliper on the fitting and press the "zero" button.  Now the caliper will show how much material you need to remove to make a perfect fit (plus finish).



great tip!


----------



## BigguyZ

I' personally take the bare wood about 0.007-0.010" past the hardware diameter.  Then, I build up a finish 0.010-0.015" _larger_ than the finished diameter.  Once I get to about 0.007" from final diameter, I go into my final sanding routine with MM.  That gets me close enough that you can't feel the transition.  If you're going to be off, the worst thing you can do is to be short of the final diameter.  Better to be 0.008" larger than 0.004" too small.

P.S. these are for a CA finish.  I find that whan I'm doing acrylics, I have to start final sanding aroun 0.010", as it's a bit softer and will reduce facter than the CA.


----------



## Rfturner

*Great tutorial*

I lookied at the tutorial and that did help, I am just getting into turning between centers. That was one of the better tutorial I have viewed so far.


----------



## JBCustomPens

RyanNJ said:


> Very Cool method. I have not gotten a chance to read through the whole thread yet but i am working on it. If you already covered these i am sorry for asking
> So to try this i need to part that goes into the headstock and special bushings?
> 
> where did you get the tool rest and lathe drilling supplies



You can get the dead center and bushings from JohnnyCNC, who also offers a very high quality short tool rest. Rherrel also offers a very nice rest too. 

As for lathe drilling, there is a tutorial that should show you ever thing you will ever need to know. You can find that tutorial here: http://content.penturners.org/articles/2009/lathedrilling.pdf


Hope this can help.


----------



## Rob73

Great tutorial -- I think I will try this soon as I keep getting a random problem going out of round with the mandrel.  It drives me nuts.  I can never seem to track down what the issue is, this looks like a great method to use to get rid of that problem.


----------



## jbeyer

Wow!!
I'm impressed...
Just 1 question (at least right now)... when you were measuring your blank with your calipers... how did you know what diameter you needed to have (the final diameter)? What do you compare it to on the kit?


----------



## Texatdurango

jbeyer said:


> Wow!!
> I'm impressed...
> Just 1 question (at least right now)... when you were measuring your blank with your calipers... how did you know what diameter you needed to have (the final diameter)? What do you compare it to on the kit?


 
I measure the mating kit components to get their diameters, at the point where the blank touches the kit component.  Notice I didn't say measure the bushings, that's because from one kit to another, the actual diameters can vary as much as several thousandths.

In the past I would measure the bushings and just have the dimensions written down for reference, then one day I turned the blank to the bushing dimension only to find I had a mismatch because the kit part was a little fatter (probably a plating buildup), only a few thousandths but when the blank is undersized it's very noticable!


----------



## Padre

Tried to order a pen pal today, they are not being made any more BUT they may get some in in a few months.  They have a waiting list.:redface:


----------



## Texatdurango

Padre said:


> Tried to order a pen pal today, they are not being made any more BUT they may get some in in a few months. They have a waiting list.:redface:


 
I contacted them six months ago telling them that they could easily sell a hundred or more of these things just here on the forum let alone elsewhere and that was their story back then.  Looks like they have other concerns rather than fixing their equipment.  I would look elsewhere!

Seems like I recently saw someone making and selling something similar here on the forum, made from acrylic, might look around the classifieds.


----------



## Adillo303

I got a dead center from Grzzly tools that is carbide tipped.


Grizzly.com

Thank you for the tutorial.

Very helpful..


----------



## Joe S.

All these years later...


----------



## PostalBob

Great job. Have me convinced on your procedure. Really loved the great pictures and description. Thanks


----------



## NewLondon88

Ah .. New Jersey. It's on the other side of the Twilight Zone :biggrin:


----------



## Adillo303

Joe S. said:


> All these years later...



Newbs will do that. LOL


----------



## turnin4fun

Great tutorial, thanks for all of your hard work. I have one question though, can you do this on acrylics also or is it just for wood.

This may have been already asked and answered and I missed it.

Thanks again!


----------



## longbeard

turnin4fun said:


> Great tutorial, thanks for all of your hard work. I have one question though, can you do this on acrylics also or is it just for wood.
> 
> This may have been already asked and answered and I missed it.
> 
> Thanks again!




Yes:biggrin:


----------



## Outdoorsman

*Exceptional tutorial!*

I just wanted to thank you for your exceptional tutorial on between centers turning. I have used a mandrel in the past, but now I want to step up my game. I am hoping to learn all I need to know regarding between centers turning, by articles such as this shared by seasoned professionals on these forums. I'd love to get three or four good recommendations on the best sources for bushings, live, and dead centers, and anything else related to turning out the highest quality turnings I possibly can.
Once again, thanks for sharing your experience. I learn best with pictures, which makes your tutorial that much more appealing to me.


----------



## kenbu

Texatdurango said:


> Padre said:
> 
> 
> 
> Tried to order a pen pal today, they are not being made any more BUT they may get some in in a few months. They have a waiting list.:redface:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I contacted them six months ago telling them that they could easily sell a hundred or more of these things just here on the forum let alone elsewhere and that was their story back then.  Looks like they have other concerns rather than fixing their equipment.  I would look elsewhere!
> 
> Seems like I recently saw someone making and selling something similar here on the forum, made from acrylic, might look around the classifieds.
Click to expand...


Member cnccutter has been selling these: http://www.penturners.org/forum/f164/2012-thumb-square%A9-shipping-sale-101106/



Ken


----------



## lorbay

Wow George all these years later this is still going. You did do a good job on this. Hope you still reading once in a while.

Lin.


----------



## Gerryattrick

..and still this thread lives

I am just getting in to turning and initially plan on mainly pens and brushes. My original plan was to use a mandrel but after finding this excellent tutorial I have decided to go the TBC route from the outset.

I watched a couple of JohnnyCnC videos on You Tube last night but it seems he has no website any longer to order parts from.

I have printed the article out and saved the pdf for my ongoing reference. For some reason the images will not show in my browser at work or at home.

I plan on getting a 60degree LC/DC for my lathe as soon as I can locate a RELIABLE supplier - there are plenty around but it is not always apparent that they are carbide tipped nor how accurate they are made.

Many thanks for taking the time to share your process

Alan


----------



## Nikitas

I was reading and saw it was from 2009! Are the thumb squares still being made? If not I would like to make some of those...hmmm


----------



## magpens

I wish the pictures would show.


----------



## RKB

Try double clicking the "paperclip" on the main page and then click the "minimize" button on your browser and there should be links with the pics.  Hope this helps :biggrin:

Rod


----------



## stuckinohio

RKB said:


> Try double clicking the "paperclip" on the main page and then click the "minimize" button on your browser and there should be links with the pics.  Hope this helps :biggrin:
> 
> Rod



Thank you for this tip. I had no idea that could be done if the pics didn't show up!


----------



## jamesbil

If only I could find the paperclip...


----------



## stuckinohio

The paper clip can be found on the pen turning forum page that lists each thread.  It's under the heading of "rating" . It is very close to the 4 star rating.


----------

