# I've used xxx and never had any problems



## Texatdurango (Jun 15, 2012)

You read every day in threads where someone will ask about something, be it a type of glue, a certain material, a type of finish, combining different materials, etc.  Then get several replies like... "I use xxx and have no issues" or I segment ebonite, aluminum and truestone together with no issues",  or "I've never seen CA fog up metal objects like fountain nibs", etc.

Then I read in many threads where someone will describe a pen they made and when asked for a photo, they comment  "Sorry, I made it last night and delivered it this morning".

Combining some of these thoughts makes me wonder how useful some of our claims and recommendations are that we pass on to each other.

When "Joe Blow" says "I use xxx glue and never have issues" or "I always glue ebonite, truestone and wood together and have never had any problems", what is he basing this on, longevity or is he really just saying "the glue held up for the day I made the pen and the next day before I mailed it off or delivered it."  So two weeks or two months later, the wood shrinks or swells causing the joints to crack and the customer is long gone and "Joe" never learned of the mishap.

The reason I bring this up is that a few years ago I made a black and gaspait true stone segmented pen and it looked wonderful and the epoxy I used held very well.  I actually recommended epoxy for use on true stone since I never had any problems.  Almost a full year later I got an email from the buyer who said the pen was "falling apart".  When I got it back and had a look I was shocked at what I saw.  While the pen was still intact and all glued together, the segments had shifted enough to produce some sharp edges between the segments.

I often wonder how many assembly practices we use that "we have no issues with" (for a day or two while it's in our possession), only to find that they don't hold up in the long run?  I want my pens to be something people will treasure for years and years not weeks or months.


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## GaryMGg (Jun 15, 2012)

George,
As ever, you're always insightful! Very good points for consideration.
Thanks for sharing.


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## Justturnin (Jun 15, 2012)

Never used xxx but I have been using yyy for 2 weeks w/ no issues:biggrin::biggrin:


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## bitshird (Jun 15, 2012)

I agree George, I see where there has been very minor shrinking on some checkerboard pens I did several years ago, easier to feel than see.


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## IPD_Mr (Jun 15, 2012)

This should be made a sticky post.  People need to really think and not take things for granted.


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## DestinTurnings (Jun 15, 2012)

I base my statements on a culmination of my experience with the materials and the feedback from customers. I don't believe anyone can without a doubt say XXX is better than YYY. You may believe that but really unless you use both XXX and YYY on a constant basis and receive extensive feedback, you will never really be able to determine the best...
I think people here try to provide sound advice based on my statements above without any malice or intent to deceive.
 
You must also consider the huge number of variables in the entire process.
Is epoxy better than CA for segmenting? Maybe not for the person who keeps their pen on their desk and writes there...but what about the woman who leaves it in her purse in the car on scorching summer days?
 
Plus you are also relying on the manufacturer of the products you use to deliver a consistent, perfect product and that will not always happen.
 
I use the same epoxy on the same type of wood for projectiles I make for military plaques and awards. I had made at least 150 over the years and NEVER had an issue. Then one day I get a call that one of my projectiles had cracked. I figured it had been dropped or the wood checked or something. When I got it back, the three boards I used had separated at the seams and the epoxy had failed. No idea if it was the epoxy, the wood, or some other factor. Up to that exact point, I would have hardcore fought that the method I had was in fact the best one around and that there could be no better way.
 
I'm a little older and wiser now and realize the old adage that there is "more than one way to skin a cat" is as true today as it was when it was first spoken.


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## TomW (Jun 15, 2012)

I've used *George* for about 3 years with no issues...:biggrin:

Sorry, someone was going to do it, so I had to hurry...

George, I think you make a good point.  Buying something (from anyone) who you know will be around, and willing to help you in the future is really attractive.

These days Smith & Wesson has some quality issues, but their "forever" guarantee keeps them with a lot of satisfied customers.

Tom


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## Dalecamino (Jun 15, 2012)

Now I'm really concerned about a pen I just put in the mail two days ago.

Very good point George. I'll have to reconsider construction on these types of pens. Or, eliminate them.


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## Parson (Jun 15, 2012)

I've now repaired one of my first segmented pens 3 times! The aluminum just didn't remain glued to the wood and plastics with CA glue after a number of months. Epoxy? A little better.

Now I flood my segmented work with many layers of CA glue to encase them. It's helpful, but who knows?

One thing that is bugging me is that my tubes seem to work free in my closed ended work, but only after many months of daily use.


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## DestinTurnings (Jun 15, 2012)

dalecamino said:


> Now I'm really concerned about a pen I just put in the mail two days ago.
> 
> Very good point George. I'll have to reconsider construction on these types of pens. Or, eliminate them.


 
Out of how many Trustone segmented pens has made and had a problem with? Who's to say that that one lot of epoxy wasn't formulated correctly? I wouldn't eliminate an entire line of pens based on one failure. Maybe make one as a carry pen and put it through the ringer...or even two made with two different methods.

When I try something new or I have concerns about its construction or reliability, I will give the pen to my wife. If it can last in her use, I would feel 100% confident in selling it to anyone! She is like one of those people that test products to failure.:biggrin:


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## cwolfs69 (Jun 15, 2012)

just a reminder that we all have to take the advice we get and use it to experiment, not as gospel. We whould also weigh the advice against the advisor. 

remember: "All indians walk in single file, at least the ONE i saw did"


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## OKLAHOMAN (Jun 15, 2012)

As always you give us something to think about. I agree with  Gary when he said your posts are insightful , thank you...


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## HoratioHornblower (Jun 15, 2012)

Thank you for sharing George! I see what you are saying, but what other option do we have? Epoxy seems to be the best. I have been planning at some point to buy the West system epoxy as I have heard its the best. I have searched for better adhesives, but I never really found some. Someone please share if they know of something better!

David


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## tim self (Jun 15, 2012)

Totally agree.  I constructed a walnut/aluminum cigar a few years ago.  I finally sold it 2 yrs ago and the lady lives in NYC.  I do not know if it is climate change or just use/age and received the same notification as you.  It's falling apart.  Literally.  Gladly repaired and haven't heard about it again.  Never and Always are two bad terms in our business.


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## Andrew_K99 (Jun 15, 2012)

I think with everything on the internet you have to take it with a grain of salt.  The views are by, for the most part at least, hobbiests that have all the best intentions when answering questions.  Very few of these hobbiest are likey to have done any sort of long term testing on their methods.

AK


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## PTownSubbie (Jun 15, 2012)

Thanks George! Very insightful!!

You do have to take everything you read with a grain of salt. It would be nice when someone makes a claim to qualify what it is based on.....

I always use given information with the "Your Milage May Vary" (YMMV) attitude and test it myself whenever I can.....


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## nativewooder (Jun 15, 2012)

Very well said.  What you make in the desert will probably last "forever" if it stays in the desert.  Sell it to a client 3000 miles away, in a totally different environment, and it just might fall apart.  It's a lot to consider when the only people I sell to are tourists from far far away.  We just do the best we can with what we have.


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## mrcook4570 (Jun 15, 2012)

I have yet to see a segmented pen that didn't have 'feelable' joints or worse a year AFTER being finished.


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## Lenny (Jun 15, 2012)

Excellent point George! 

As someone who was self-employed for most of my adult life I can relate to what you are saying. Problems are going to arise, having a chance to make them right is all you can hope for.
In my pen making I have always encouraged customers to let me know if they have ANY problems. A few have ... some of the problems were their own doing, some not. So far nothing I haven't been able to easily rectify. 

It's the ones I haven't heard about that worry me!


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## EBorraga (Jun 15, 2012)

I've always had success using XXX, and I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express lastnight:biggrin:.

Great post George, I think trial and error phase is what seperates the pros form everyone else.


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## Timebandit (Jun 15, 2012)

True George. Im also cautious about people who post advice but never show any pens. There have been many instances over the years where someone posts some advice, but when you look to see if they have ever even posted a pen on here in the years that they have been members and they havent, i am always weary of the info. Not saying they dont know what they are talking about, but how do i know. I like to be able to look back and see if the person giving advice is in my opinion someone that should be giving information and trustworthy to do that because they have shown that they have the knowledge to do so. Just spouting information without proof to back up what you say with something to show, i think is wrong. Be careful about trusting someone who doesnt EVER show what they talk about. Kind of like trusting a scientist without seeing proof. Taking someone as an expert without knowing could lead to trouble. Check out the people you get information from.


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## Displaced Canadian (Jun 15, 2012)

George does bring up a valid point. Glue is just 1 thing to think about. I have done and seen people dye wood with different products and I have wondered about the colorfastness of the dye. Also if using metal how is it going to age? I think how we answer these type of questions separates craft from art.


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## PenPal (Jun 15, 2012)

George,

A saying I have heard all my life is there are two foolish people those that give advice and those that take it. The first advice I have given myself for any contribution on this site from now on will be a disclaimer  IT WORKS FOR ME. Also I often spend up to an hour shuffling pics, finding or taking them to illustrate something THIS WILL CEASE the feedback is minor and I am getting behind with coping the tasks I have.

It is my intention to share in all things, never to overprice my product nearly all purchases in my price range no one guarantees a certain life or return no broken promises.

I have an 84 yr old friend lives up the road restores very old motor bikes and vintage motor bikes and cars currently restoring two one hundred year old Vellocette Motor Bikes, he does not look for the manufacturer he makes all parts he needs to reactivate them he served his apprenticship in the Sydney railways, apon retiring the Railway Dept sold him the lathes and mills etc he started his apprenticeship using as a gesture and he uses these old machines.

Why do I mention him well he is a Tradesman, qualified, experienced, when I became a member of this Forum I joined as a member no qualification in pens, no Degree in Science, etc I have used and given more than I receive and have a debt of gratitude for those kind members whos first response is I do this or that and try to avoid like the plague replies obviously based on Google definitions.

Have fun in the hobby or success in the making of pens using the quoted saying I did it my way with a little help from my friends.

Kind regards Peter.


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## Texatdurango (Jun 15, 2012)

Just for grins, here is the pen I used as an example.  I forgot to mention that the green marbled gaspait is true stone, the black is acrylic.  You can feel and see EVERY joint where true stone bonded to acrylic (especially on the cap).  Where true stone bonded to true stone you can feel and see nothing, they are still as smooth as the day I made the pen.

This sorta lets the air out of the "bad batch" of epoxy theory.  Can I explain what happened..... no, I just knew that when I made it, I had no issues with epoxy!  :wink:  

It's no loss however, I replaced the pen and now this one sits on or around one of my desks and feels nice to write with when I need a ball point.


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## Smitty37 (Jun 15, 2012)

I am more taken aback by the number of posts asking for advice that get 15 answers, none of which answer the original question.


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## renowb (Jun 15, 2012)

pwhay said:


> George,
> 
> A saying I have heard all my life is there are two foolish people those that give advice and those that take it. The first advice I have given myself for any contribution on this site from now on will be a disclaimer IT WORKS FOR ME. Also I often spend up to an hour shuffling pics, finding or taking them to illustrate something THIS WILL CEASE the feedback is minor and I am getting behind with coping the tasks I have.
> 
> ...


 

Exactly what Peter said...what is the warranty on pens? 6 months, a year a lifetime? I know customer service is important, but after a year?


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## KenV (Jun 15, 2012)

Warrenty -- a piece of paper or a shake of a hand.  One definition is

A guarantee given to the purchaser by a company stating that a product is reliable and free from known defects and that the seller will, without charge, repair or replace defective parts within a given time limit and under certain conditions.


Because I want to know about any problems or failures, I offer to fix or repair any failures as long as I am here to do it.  After death, you are on your own.

I get a few, mostly abuse and wear -- and that is good information to have.   I have one I have been told is coming back that "fell apart".  I want to know the cause and I will make it right - up to and including providing a new pen.

I am with George --  I want to know if something is a problem and I will make it right.


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## thewishman (Jun 15, 2012)

Materials expand and contract at different rates and at varying temperatures. I cannot see how pens made with metal, acrylic and wood (or any other combinations/materials) could remain perfectly joined over time. It would violate the laws of physics.


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## Smitty37 (Jun 15, 2012)

*Yep*



thewishman said:


> Materials expand and contract at different rates and at varying temperatures. I cannot see how pens made with metal, acrylic and wood (or any other combinations/materials) could remain perfectly joined over time. It would violate the laws of physics.


 That is exactly why joining and fastening has been the bane of cabinet and furniture makers from time immemorial.


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## Texatdurango (Jun 15, 2012)

thewishman said:


> Materials expand and contract at different rates and at varying temperatures. I cannot see how pens made with metal, acrylic and wood (or any other combinations/materials) could remain perfectly joined over time. It would violate the laws of physics.


And this is the very reason I haven't made a segmented pen in a LONG time.  They are fun to make, look great..... for a while, then things start shifting around making a once beautiful pen not so attractive anymore.  I have a sneaking suspicion that is why the "Stars and Stripes" lazer kits fell out of favor a few years back.  About a year after making them, the stripes wanted to start moving around and cracking the CA finishes.


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## IPD_Mr (Jun 15, 2012)

Timebandit said:


> Im also cautious about people who post advice but never show any pens.


 
This can be an entirely different subject and has been before.  There are many people on here that do not post their pens for several reasons.  But you are correct in playing it cautious from who you take advice.  

I have had wood pens from the same species of wood, made at about the same time, stored in the same location and one will crack and the other one looks as good as the day it was made.  You just cannot predict what will happen down the road and why it happened.  George did what he felt was right for his customer and his conscience.


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## pinelumber (Jun 15, 2012)

*shifting*

You know everything expands and contracts at different rates even just mixed woods.  Therefore when mixing materials wood, resin, etc it is bound to shift even 1/1000 th. of an inch. you might feel it..  What we feel as a small imperfection a customer may consider the Grand Canyon.

Dennis

Pinelumber:bananen_smilies104::RockOn:


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## cwolfs69 (Jun 16, 2012)

pinelumber said:


> You know everything expands and contracts at different rates even just mixed woods.  Therefore when mixing materials wood, resin, etc it is bound to shift even 1/1000 th. of an inch. you might feel it..  What we feel as a small imperfection a customer may consider the Grand Canyon.
> 
> Dennis
> 
> Pinelumber:bananen_smilies104::RockOn:



i have more often seen just the opposite. i will rework something due to what i perceive as an imperfection and then when talking to customers i hear" you are kidding, looks great", etc. i tell people when discussing this subject, "i have to meet my standards" and that usually meets others as well. remember , my name and reputation is on the product.


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## Timebandit (Jun 16, 2012)

IPD_Mr said:


> Timebandit said:
> 
> 
> > Im also cautious about people who post advice but never show any pens.
> ...



True, but il be honest. I guarantee that not one single person on here has every single pen of theres be something that no one else has ever seen before or tried before. Once or twice sure, but there are some that NEVER show a pen, and again im sure that they are not the most original person to ever live and invent new things to go on pens. Hiding one or two secrets how you do something (like Martin, but still shows his pens is one thing) but to mention your special secret pens and ideas and to NEVER show them is another deal entirely. And i mean never show a pen, in years of being members. I dont trust a single word from a person that wont show part of what they speak of, even if everyone else says they are legit and what they say is true. Again, would you trust the word of your doctor trying to prescribe you some medication without knowing that he is qualified to do so. Not i, i check my doctors out before they ever here my voice or see my face. Same with any information i try to absorb on here. Im not into absorbing false information. I check out everyone whos advice i am interested in on here, a little background check if you will. I know this is clique, but no pic, didnt happen


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## PenMan1 (Jun 16, 2012)

Excellent post, George!

As you suggested, sometimes you have problems that you didn't know you had. We do a good many shows at the same venue, year after year. We try to e-mail previous buyers from the location and invite them to bring their pens for cleaning, tune up, and free stuff (usually ink).

 Seeing products that were made years ago gives you a chance to evaluate how things hold up over time and with use. Your point about segments and laser sets ring very true for us. Your post got me to thinking "how many problems do we have that the pen owner didn't make us aware of, because the pen was a gift, etc?"

Thanks again for the excellent post.


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## renowb (Jun 16, 2012)

I actually had a customer from 2 years ago email me for some refills on a few AK pens I made. I told him the price and to email me his address. I sent him several refills free. He emailed and said he would pay and I said, no, it was on the house.


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## Smitty37 (Jun 16, 2012)

I guess it depends somewhat on what your price range is.  Personally I don't worry a lot about things like what it will look like in 5/10 years. 

Since I give away far more pens than I sell and I don't charge much for the ones I do sell I don't feel the need to offer a lifetime guarantee on the materials.  

A 5 year old pen that shows signs of wood shrinkage or expansion can be a problem if you are trying to sell heirlooms to collectors at a high price but it is not a problem if you are giving pens to your neighbors and relatives who will probably lose it or put it in a drawer the first time  the refill needs to be changed.

 We do know that there are plastics that will be pretty well stable in dimension and color for long periods of time...I have pens I bought 20 years ago to give away as promo items for my tax business, and they still look brand new. But wood, antler, polyresin or other materials..... who knows?


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## Texatdurango (Jun 16, 2012)

You know, we see every day where we are helping others with ideas, suggestions and remedies.  If you think about it, getting others to think about what their pens are going to look like down the road, not just until they sell them really helps all of us.

When I'm at a pen show, I want people to walk by my table and see it for what it is... a table full of nice pens.  What I don't want to happen is for someone walking by and thinking......... "OH, those are just some of those home made pens, I had one once and the damn thing didn't last six months before falling apart!" then walking off.

So......... when a fellow member asks for advice, rather than just saying "I've got no problems with xxx" or "I use xxx" perhaps take a few seconds to give a brief example or a reason why we do what we do.  

The more we all start making quality pens that will last beyond the sale, the more credibility we give to the hand crafted pen and that helps all of us.

Just a thought!  (and I've got lots of 'em )


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## Jim Burr (Jun 16, 2012)

Texatdurango said:


> You read every day in threads where someone will ask about something, be it a type of glue, a certain material, a type of finish, combining different materials, etc. Then get several replies like... "I use xxx and have no issues" or I segment ebonite, aluminum and truestone together with no issues", or "I've never seen CA fog up metal objects like fountain nibs", etc.
> 
> Then I read in many threads where someone will describe a pen they made and when asked for a photo, they comment "Sorry, I made it last night and delivered it this morning".
> 
> ...


 
I'm learning that time heals all ignorance George! I used a specific manufactures kit for quite a while...after a year, they suck. Used another kit for a few years...seemed good at the time, both for skill level and wow factor...now they suck. Finish, kit matching, manufacturer, skill level and attitude all play in. I hate some of the pens folks paid a lot for even a year ago, next year I'll hate the ones I made this morning. Effort and reality are powerful!


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## DurocShark (Jun 16, 2012)

Texatdurango said:


> You know, we see every day where we are helping others with ideas, suggestions and remedies.  If you think about it, getting others to think about what their pens are going to look like down the road, not just until they sell them really helps all of us.
> 
> When I'm at a pen show, I want people to walk by my table and see it for what it is... a table full of nice pens.  What I don't want to happen is for someone walking by and thinking......... "OH, those are just some of those home made pens, I had one once and the damn thing didn't last six months before falling apart!" then walking off.
> 
> ...




Your deep thinking makes my head hurt. 



Great job!


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## Smitty37 (Jun 16, 2012)

Jim Burr said:


> Texatdurango said:
> 
> 
> > You read every day in threads where someone will ask about something, be it a type of glue, a certain material, a type of finish, combining different materials, etc. Then get several replies like... "I use xxx and have no issues" or I segment ebonite, aluminum and truestone together with no issues", or "I've never seen CA fog up metal objects like fountain nibs", etc.
> ...


  Well this site is not just for folks making pens to sell....seeing oneself as an artist or craftsman getting better at your trade is one thing.  Seeing oneself as a hobby turner who likes to turn a couple of pens now and then is another.


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## leehljp (Jun 16, 2012)

thewishman said:


> Materials expand and contract at different rates and at varying temperatures. I cannot see how pens made with metal, acrylic and wood (or any other combinations/materials) could remain perfectly joined over time. It would violate the laws of physics.



Chris, I don't quite agree with the perception of the statement, particularly the "violating the laws of physics".

When one "knows" the real risks, takes those into consideration in construction, the risks are minimized and acceptable and quality finished products over a long time period are possible. 100% working, no, but acceptable high percentages, yes.

I am on some woodworking forums and see chess and checker board sets made - in which the GRAINs of different colored woods of the board are set at 90° to each other. And many people make this with bread/cutting boards. This is usually a disaster waiting to happen. Wood moves and will move and in different directions.

BUT, if one knows this and takes it into account, and if one is well aware that veneer does not move - well then the laws of physics (not actually) change, and the mysteries of wood begin to show a different sign in veneer versus cross grained checker board cutting boards. 

Know your wood (not just the name and color). Which ones move in which direction or not at all? Mesquit is one wood that does NOT move as compared to others. What is the moisture content? Is the wood stabilized? Can the wood for pens be made to take on the stability that veneer has? Yes, if you are aware of it and know how.

When making segments, are the wood pieces lined up (grain alignment)? Or, is the wood thin as veneer to prevent expansion/contraction? (Of course, was the wood dry and stabilized? It is hard to stabilize oily woods.) Some woods will make a stable veneer at 1/8 inch while others will not make a stable veneer until much thinner.

Know the orientation of the wood. When I make segments the wood grains are aligned. It is good to think through the alignment, orientation, and the resulting possibilities.

Know your metal, Which conducts heat the most? All get hot (brass and aluminum). Is there a way to decrease the heat in turning segmented metal/wood? In turning, heat is created which loosens bonds with the glue. The heat transferred to the wood will draw humidity moisture into it as it cools simply because the heat opened up the glue line a fraction of a mm, and even though the maker of the pen will think that everything is OK. This allows for contraction expansion problems later on. But it can be dealt with if one is as aware of the potential problems as much as a paranoid person is that someone is after them! :biggrin:

Know your glues. Which glue withstand heat better? Which glue gets weaker as it is tightened with a clamp before curing? Which glues leave glue lines showing?

When one knows this, one may not reach 100% or 95% perfection down the road 5 or 6 years from now, but there will be a higher percentage of pens that will not become problems. 

I am sure George has made similarly designed pens that have not had that problem. Knowing George, he thinks things through from an engineering point of view, and 95% of his will be good years from now, but still things happen. Does than mean we should just stop? No. 

Know your material, know the potential problems and while a perfect score with pens will not be attained, the successes will be enough to keep one going and trying.

I have had a few segmented pens with movements but the majority do not have problems from 4 to 5 years ago. That is both with the "feel" and "see" test. I look back and think that the problem was not with the wood or metal per se, but with the heat created. Again, for wood movement itself, I watch for it. I have had more "telegraphing" from knots than from moving segments. 

Problems happen, but success comes from knowledge, experience and wisdom. No need to be fearful of trying something because of a bump or few bumps in the road. And there will be more bumps later down the road. Learn what can be learned and keep on advancing this art.


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## Smitty37 (Jun 16, 2012)

leehljp said:


> thewishman said:
> 
> 
> > Materials expand and contract at different rates and at varying temperatures. I cannot see how pens made with metal, acrylic and wood (or any other combinations/materials) could remain perfectly joined over time. It would violate the laws of physics.
> ...


Problem is that most folks have neither the time nor the inclination to get a PhD in physics or material science.  For instance, I know generally that most of what you said above is absolutely true (the rest is probably true as well but I don't know that it is).  That being said, I certainly don't have enough time in my life to learn the specifics.


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## leehljp (Jun 16, 2012)

Smitty37 said:


> Problem is that most folks have neither the time nor the inclination to get a PhD in physics or material science.  For instance, I know generally that most of what you said above is absolutely true (the rest is probably true as well but I don't know that it is).  That being said, I certainly don't have enough time in my life to learn the specifics.



Aww, it don't take no PhD! I learned about wood movement from the first table that I made that didn't like the criss crossing of the grain! :redface: :biggrin: I wondered why veneer stayed put when laid in all directions but solid woods don't. So I started askin! (And reading.) Glues - I learned quickly that heat causes glues (household/homeshop glue) to loosen in metal to metal joints. :redface:  I have learned a lot about glues just reading on this forum. Most of what I said in my statement is from experience and then study or asking why it happens that way.


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## pinelumber (Jun 16, 2012)

*thats what I said earlier*

Leehljp just said in many paragraphs what I said in 2 lines.  Different materials no matter how hard you try will expand, contract and rotate at different rates causing those eventual oops!


Dennis
PineLumber:bananen_smilies104::RockOn:


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## leehljp (Jun 17, 2012)

pinelumber said:


> Leehljp just said in many paragraphs what I said in 2 lines.  Different materials no matter how hard you try will expand, contract and rotate at different rates causing those eventual oops!
> 
> 
> Dennis
> PineLumber:bananen_smilies104::RockOn:



No, I didn't say what you said in 2 lines. :wink: What I said was that if you know and understand those variables, you CAN make them work without the oops. Not at a 100% rate but at a pretty high rate. 

Sure I have had a few loosen, but the majority of those that I made with segments are still together and they haven't slipped and you can't tell of any wood movement from those that were made 4 and 5 years ago. Look at the directions of wood along with metal strips and inlays on some fine antique guitars. They don't expand, contract, rotate and don't show the eventual oops. There are all kinds of woodworkings with inlays that are quite expensive that do not separate. So what did those folks know that seems to be missing here? That is not rocket science, just some experience.


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## Haynie (Jun 17, 2012)

I was lookin at xxx material.  The wife caught me now I'm sleepin on the couch.  I told her George said we really needed to know our xxx material but she didn't buy that I was doing pen material research.  I told her I was researchin silicon









Sorry had to say it.


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## nava1uni (Jun 17, 2012)

Good thoughts George.  Makes me think about the continuing reading and learning that each pen requires.  Like trying new things, but lots of them don't work but the lessons learned are good and the knowledge comes in handy.
As for pictures, some of can take them and show our work well and then there are people, like me, that take them, but they don't show well so we don't post. That is another area of learning, slow but sure.


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