# Second best finish instead of CA ?



## Stango (May 17, 2011)

My CA results are fine but I find myself more and more alergic to CA fumes.  Yes I tried fans, etc. 

What finish (for pens) would you consider the next best option?

I have used friction polished and poly but figured you guys could give me some ideas (besides CA)

I also need something fairly fast as I need to turn out quite a few pens in the next few days.

Thanks


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## alphageek (May 17, 2011)

There is some guys here that do a plexi based finish, but they take more than a few days for final cure.   I don't know if anyone has come up with a CA alternative that cures that fast?


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## Stango (May 17, 2011)

Thanks.... I need something that is a fast finish...... does anyone have a friction polish that is better than most ?

Other ideas ?

Thanks


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## mredburn (May 17, 2011)

There is an articale in the library on using wipe on poly
http://content.penturners.org/library/techniques/minwaxfinish.pdf

However it has more labor involved than a c/a finsih. I  used to do poly finishes and they hold up very well over the years.


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## pyurgal (May 17, 2011)

I have been using Mylands friction polish with very good results recently.  It is easy to apply and give you a nice finish.  I like it a lot better then Hut Crystal Coat.

Paul


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## penmaker1967 (May 17, 2011)

i have used woodturners polish before and it seems to hold up pretty well.


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## Stango (May 17, 2011)

Thanks..... I will try some of the options and hope for the best.  My CA finishes are nice but I just cant stand the allergies that hit me the following day.


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## Buzzzz4 (May 17, 2011)

I you can get ahold of Woodwrite, Turner's Magic creates a great finish and it's fast and easy. http://www.woodwriteltd.com/turnmagi.htm


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## Smitty37 (May 17, 2011)

*PSI*



Buzzzz4 said:


> I you can get ahold of Woodwrite, Turner's Magic creates a great finish and it's fast and easy. http://www.woodwriteltd.com/turnmagi.htm


 I think PSI is the only source for Turner's Magic now.  Woodwrite does not respond to emails and you can't get them on the phone either.


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## randywa (May 17, 2011)

I like using Minwax Polycrylic in the high gloss. If you put on light coats you can apply the next in 5 min. It dries fairly hard and buffs up nice.


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## Woodlvr (May 17, 2011)

I am not sure how you are allergic to CA, smell or what so I was just wondering if the odorless CA might help you? I know the CA fumes are really starting to get to me also.


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## chrisk (May 17, 2011)

I'm also allergic to CA and odorless is not a solution (I've tried it). A half face or (even better) a full face (3M...) mask was the solution for me.

Otherwise, a finish that I'm using quite often is: sanding sealer + pure Carnauba wax (applied on the wood with a pure Carnauba stick at 3000RPM or with the Beall buffing wheel).


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## G1Pens (May 17, 2011)

The WoodWrite Turner's Magic sounds intriquing, but I do not see it on PSI's site and a quick search on the Internet was futile. Anyone know where to get the product.


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## bgio13 (May 17, 2011)

Gary, try this link.

http://www.pennstateind.com/store/PKFRICT2.html

They also have a sealer, and a semi-gloss formula. Hope this helps,

Bill


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## hewunch (May 17, 2011)

plexi-tone finish does not take days to cure. Just over night like CA. If you are in a rush you can buff it out in a matter of minutes.


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## wouldentu2? (May 17, 2011)

I also have tried alternative finishes due to CA allergies, the type that cause your sinuses to act like you are getting a head cold or not being able to breath thru your nose at night.

I use the odorless CA called Super-Gold which I get at the hobby store since model airplaners use it. It is sold by bsi out of california their sight has a list of vendors so you can find a local supplier. Cost is $12.00 for 1 oz. which seems steep compared to the other version. But, I am able to make the pens in a timely manner and breath (which my wife says is worth it since I can breath at night).


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## Padre (May 17, 2011)

I'm telling you folks, my mask for $14 on ebay saved me!  Really.  No one has said they've tried it, but I'm telling you, it's not all that cumbersome and you don't get any fumes.  Try it.  Hey, for $14 you should at least try it before giving up on CA.


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## corian king (May 17, 2011)

Like Buzz and Smitty said.I really like the friction polish.(turners magic) But you will have to go to penn state to get it.I have tried for 6months to get in touch with 
woodwrite.But he doesn't return his phone or emails.Penn state was out and had actually discountinued it. But I gues they got their problems worked out because it is back in stock.
Good luck!
JIM


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## Wild Turkey (May 17, 2011)

I to go for the Turners Magic. Love it and finish is great holds up and has a great shine and a lot faster than 10 coats of CA etc.


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## Mark (May 18, 2011)

Add me to the Mylands fan club. Ease of use and finish are great.


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## BRobbins629 (May 18, 2011)

Why use wood?  Switch to plastics and buff to a high shine.  No need for any finish.


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## EBorraga (May 18, 2011)

My thoughts exactly Bruce. That's why almost everything I make now is true-stone, m3, or some version of acrylic.


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## Padre (May 18, 2011)

I use wood because the natural beauty of it just can't be imitated by acrylic.  A nice amboyna burl pen, or afzelia, or some other burl............gorgeous.


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## CREID (May 19, 2011)

http://www.doctorswoodshop.com/

I use the highbuild friction polish from this brand.
I get a great gloss finish
curt


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## bnoles (May 19, 2011)

Thanks for that link Curt, I will give this product a try.


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## DurocShark (May 19, 2011)

alphageek said:


> There is some guys here that do a plexi based finish, but they take more than a few days for final cure.   I don't know if anyone has come up with a CA alternative that cures that fast?



Interesting. I haven't had that experience with mine. 

I use the melted plexi when it's too cold for CA. Works pretty good. I made a burl long click for the wife and finished with the plexi. She carried it for a year before the 4 zillionth drop to tile finally cracked the finish.


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## leehljp (May 19, 2011)

I will add my $.02 worth. I am severely allergic to CA fumes AND dust. I turned for about 2  1/2 years using CA without a problem. Then over a 2 month period, it went from a slight sniffle after a few hours turning to full blown flu symptoms and even double vision once. This lasted for 2 to 3 days.

Dipping into lacquer, along with some other finishes took too long. I tried plexi/acrylic but the problems there was that I had spent a long time learning CA and as a result, the instinctive actions of applying CA had to be "un-learned" while learning the new "feel" of applying the plexi-acrylic method. Plus, in the end I learned that for me, the correct mix of plexi/acrylic and acetone was more delicate than I was using. 

I had the choice - re-learn, and it would have been worth it in hindsight, or go into what would be more healthy in the long run - a preventative methodology, regardless of the finish method. I chose to add a dust collector system, use a dual cartridge face mask and googles, and hang a fan from the ceiling and let it blow extraneous dust away. I kept a damp cloth close by to wipe my hands, arms or sleeves off when finished.

I will say that I did learn the dipping method (my own plexi and also lacquer) and used it on some pens. It was invaluable to learn the benefits or each. But for you at this point, since you need to get some out quickly, I will say that the learning curve of other methods will confine you to either non-wood or CA while using a full mask. If you are lucky, you can pick up one of the other finishes and hit it quickly. For most people in my observation, it takes several pens and a few weeks at best to learn a new finish.

I enjoyed pen making and turning creative ideas into reality so much that I explored new ways to do that. (Although, I haven't for over a year because work has been eating my time for the past year.) There are many choices out there, but most take a little time to perfect. Rushing into a new finish to get some backlog of pens out of the way can be very frustrating . . . or it can spur a quick start into a new finish.

Please report on which way you choose. People's experience in situations like this is invaluable.


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## clapiana (May 19, 2011)

+1  Mylands friction polish


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## wizical (May 19, 2011)

The Problem with a Friction polish is that they just dont hold up over a long period of time!  It wears off and some sort of maintenance is required!  When I first started pen turning, I used to apply the friction polish and it worked, but after a while, the finish would wear off and look awful!  When applying a finish to a pen, It has to standup to daily abuse and a friction polish will not do that!


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## PenMan1 (May 19, 2011)

IMHO, the only finish even REMOTELY close to CA is plexi. Plexi is a big ole pain in the a$$, both to make and apply. IF, you are going to sell "upscale" wood or Alumalite pens, you must learn CA finishing. Otherwise, you'll be selling $30 pens forever.


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## ldb2000 (May 19, 2011)

PenMan1 said:


> IMHO, the only finish even REMOTELY close to CA is plexi. Plexi is a big ole pain in the a$$, both to make and apply. IF, you are going to sell "upscale" wood or Alumalite pens, you must learn CA finishing. Otherwise, you'll be selling $30 pens forever.


 
Or at least untill enough of your friction finish pens look like crap that no one buys them any more !


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## PenMan1 (May 19, 2011)

Butch!
Where you been, dude? I was beginning to worry that the 100+ inches of snow you got "wrecked you". Good to see you back, amigo!


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## CREID (May 20, 2011)

bnoles said:


> Thanks for that link Curt, I will give this product a try.


 
Let me know what you think about it. I was using Hut Crystal Coat and wanted a glossier finish. They sell this stuff at the Seattle Woodcraft and I asked their turning expert and he said try this. Seems to give me a real good gloss.
Curt


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## CREID (May 20, 2011)

PenMan1 said:


> IMHO, the only finish even REMOTELY close to CA is plexi. Plexi is a big ole pain in the a$$, both to make and apply. IF, you are going to sell "upscale" wood or Alumalite pens, you must learn CA finishing. Otherwise, you'll be selling $30 pens forever.


 
I would love to use CA, but right now I hate the odor and it is really a pain to do, for me anyway. Hopefully someday someone will come up with a painless way to do CA. Don't get me wrong here, I have read most of the ways posted here, watched the videos, here and elsewhere, They all work, but they aren't painless for me.
Curt

ps You would think someone from a printing ink background like me would be able to come up with a easy varnish system to use, but o-well.

pps Actually, a UV coating, like the gloss coating on magazines might work, some of those coatings go over 2000 rubs on a Sutherland rub tester and 4 lb weight. You would need a UV curing system tho. And then you would have to figure out how to apply it and cure it on the pen, hmmmmmm.


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## arw01 (May 20, 2011)

They obviously have UV bulbs that you would have to cover, leave the lathe running on slow speed for a little while with the UV bulb and you should get total coverage of the light portion.


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## ttpenman (May 20, 2011)

I have used Mylands Melamine Lacquer from Craft Supply and liked it a lot. To me it is similar to Turners Magic.  Used like a friction polish but IMO gives a harder finish.  Smells like lacquer so if the fumes bother you it may not work.  Can lasts a long time.

I finally started using a CA finish myself and it has been working pretty well so far.  I'm sure it will get better with practice.

Jeff in northern Wisconsin


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## CREID (May 20, 2011)

arw01 said:


> They obviously have UV bulbs that you would have to cover, leave the lathe running on slow speed for a little while with the UV bulb and you should get total coverage of the light portion.


 
It is actually a little more complicated than that. First the bulbs cost several hundred dollars and then you need a reflector, then you would have to aim the reflector just right (you need to do this before you turn the bulb on for curing). The bulbs need to be a certain nanometer (400? 450? I forget) and then the reflector needs to be correct because you get 70% of your energy from the light from the concetrated effort of the reflector. As for lathe speed, you would need to adapt something else because the lowest speeds of lathes would be way to high and you would get sling. Uv doesn't dry at all, so it would stay wet until you hit it with the lamp and then you get instantaneous cure, so you wouldn't be able to be wiping while you get cure like a CA.
UV coatings are thin, somewhere between thin and medium CA for flexographic presses and I have not seen a paste UV for offset printers, they ususally use a tower coater to apply coatings in offset, so you would need something like they use to coat fishing poles, which run very slow.

This could be done, but you would need a heck of an investment not only in dollars but time and materials for research and trial and error. Would make a great coating for pens tho I think, nice and deep and glossy.
Oh yea and you would need an exhaust system because the curing of UV gives off Ozone (not sure if there are different types of Ozone) that smells.
And some people are sensitive to uncured UV from the photo initiators, after the cure it is ok tho.


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## arw01 (May 20, 2011)

So what happens to the coating if you don't hit it with strong uv right away, what if you pull it back.  Instant is something needed for the printers, those things are flying.  Now for the finishing we need, absolute instant speed is not necessary.

What happens to the stuff if you pack it out into full sunlight?


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## CREID (May 20, 2011)

arw01 said:


> So what happens to the coating if you don't hit it with strong uv right away, what if you pull it back. Instant is something needed for the printers, those things are flying. Now for the finishing we need, absolute instant speed is not necessary.
> 
> What happens to the stuff if you pack it out into full sunlight?


 
Ok first the sunlight, yes sunlight will cure it, after a few days of exposure. This stuff is allways kept in black plastic containers or metal to keep the light from slowly affecting the coating.
Now UV coatings cure, they don't dry, when it is hit by the UV lamp (and it must be high intensity, that's why sunlight takes so long) to put it simply, the molecules start moving and hit each other and crosslink to form a solid. 
By the way UV coatings are considered 100% solids (no voc's). There is no way to control time of cure, it's either instantaneous or not (unless you have continous exposure like the sun, then it could take days or weeks and you may never even get a full cure. We used to put buckets of old coating outside to cure under the sun so we could throw it in the trash, but it never worked.

Maybe this was bad to bring up, trying to take a printing process to pen making. If you could get someone to make a thicker UV coating and then find a way to get your turned blanks to rotate maybe at 50 rpm and apply the UV coating, then apply some heat to smooth out the surface, and then hit it with the lamp, it would work.
I wasn't a chemist in the ink business, I was technical service, I went to pressrooms and solved problems that were ink related.
As far as presses flying, a lathe flies much faster. Presses at high speeds run at most 500 fpm and at that your lucky if you can cure coatings or dry inks. You usually run around 150 to 300 fpm. If you do it long enough you can actually stop the image with your eyes. These are Flexographic web presses, not the one sheet at a time offset presses.

If anyone knows someone at one of the large pen making supply companies, they may have the time and money to research this. If you would like to know more, you should be able to Google UV coatings. Most printing ink comapies sell coatings in one gallon to totes at somewhere between 5 and 10 dollars per pound. So expense of the coating itself wouldn't be that much. 90 dollars per gallon at most. Think of how much you pay for a pint what you use now.

If you would like to know some of the larger companies that deal with this stuff in one gallon quantities, try Flint Group Narrow Web, Environmental ink (they have been sold but you should still be able to find them through Google). There are a lot of smaller companies that deal with them too.


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## holmqer (May 20, 2011)

I would consider Enduro


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## CREID (May 20, 2011)

What is Enduro?
Curt


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## wouldentu2? (May 22, 2011)

Enduro is a urethane available in several size cans at rockler and woodcraft to name two places. You can dip it (Which I have done with success) or it can be applied with a rag on the lathe (Which I have not been able to be successful at). Look in the IAP library for info on how to do it.


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## Lee K (Jun 7, 2011)

wouldentu2? said:


> Enduro is a urethane available in several size cans at rockler and woodcraft to name two places. You can dip it (Which I have done with success) or it can be applied with a rag on the lathe (Which I have not been able to be successful at). Look in the IAP library for info on how to do it.


odd question ... but can you apply a coat or two of CA and THEN dip it?

Would the enduro adhere to the CA coated pen?


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## wouldentu2? (Jun 7, 2011)

I cannot think of any reason to use CA and then dip Enduro. You usually use the Enduro to avoid using CA due to the fumes. With 2 coats of CA I'm 3 coats away from being done.
Enduro needs about 24 hours between coats.


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## Bree (Jun 7, 2011)

I suppose an alternative depends on the wood.  Some woods do well with one thing and some with another.  When I get dense exotics I may use nothing but Carnauba wax.  Because some of them don't really need anything more unless you insist on a mirror finish.  Quite frankly some woods look better matte and natural than shining like mirrors.

I love Tung oil (Waterlox or my own concoction) and use it with many of the things I do including my CA pens.  But I often use it with Carnauba wax over and Ren Wax.  It's tough and doesn't show surface scratches like plastic has a tendency to do.

Another EZ one is DEFT High Gloss Lacquer... either the spray or dipping it.  Takes longer but you get a nice finish.  I think modern lacquers are a lot tougher than many would lead you to believe.  At least the pens that I have lacquered have held up very well.  Behlens makes a good lacquer for turning too.


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## Lee K (Jun 8, 2011)

wouldentu2? said:


> I cannot think of any reason to use CA and then dip Enduro. You usually use the Enduro to avoid using CA due to the fumes. With 2 coats of CA I'm 3 coats away from being done.
> Enduro needs about 24 hours between coats.



I don't know. I have just dipped my first pen using high gloss poly and have one coat of vs on another barrel thinking about dipping the rest.


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## Mike Lindstrom (Jun 8, 2011)

I'm relatively new to turning, and maybe you guys are spending more time with the skew and less time with the abrasives than I am, but especially if you're turning wood, you really should be wearing a good respirator.  Lots of woods people like to see often lead to dangerous allergies.  And in general, lung exposure to exotic wood dust is bad long term.  On top of that, the dust in the air over time can cause scratches in your eyes, degrading your vision.  Regardless what finish you use, get a mask.  It's easy enough to get cartridges for it that would take out the CA too.  And really, whatever finish you use, you should be venting it outside.  None of those things are good to breathe.

One thing to consider with alternative finishes is what wood you're using.  A nice thing about CA, in my experience is that it cures over anything.  Others often need a seal coat under them on oily woods, otherwise they never cure.

On the UV finishes, there is a company now marketing a UV cure polyesther to the luthiery community.  I haven't tried it, but there are several people discussing it on some of the luthier forums.  Their general consensus is it wipes on, self levels, cures quickly with the right light, and is the toughest finish available, even super thin.  It is not cheap though.  The starter kit for finishing guitars runs about $3000.  I don't know if forum rules allow linking to other forums or commercial sites, but PM me and I can get you links to the discussion and the product.

Mike


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## Oldmanwheeler (Jul 2, 2011)

*Doctor Woodshop*



CREID said:


> http://www.doctorswoodshop.com/
> 
> I use the highbuild friction polish from this brand.
> I get a great gloss finish
> curt



The guy who developed Doctor Woodshop's products is a woodturner and a biochemist who resided to use his knowledge to come up with these products.  I placed an order tonight and will let you know what I think about his products but from what I read it sounds like a quality product at a very fair price.


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## dabeeler (Jul 3, 2011)

I've been using a combination of liquid finishing wax and deft brushing lacquer following these instructions http://www.woodturnerruss.com/FSOriginal5.html.  The results are such that this has now become my favorite way to finish.  I have used all three flavors of the brushing lacquer, satin, semi-gloss and gloss and prefer the results from the semi-gloss.  Things I do a little different than the instructions are that I hand sand with 600 grit after wiping off the finishing wax, let the first coat of lacquer sit about 2 minutes instead of one and use 4 total coats of lacquer letting coats 2, 3 and 4 sit about one minute before wiping off.  I found the bronze wool to be much better than steel wool to buff the blank between lacquer coats.  I do not use the bronze wool after the last coat.  Let blanks sit till next day and then take to the buffer as directed.


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## chipd (Jul 8, 2011)

I know this may sound a bit unorthodox, but I have found using plastic polish of some woods makes a marvelous finish.  It seems to work better on woods that have a higher natural oil/resin content.  The polish (when used on high speed) produces a higher heat than regular wood finishes and helps bring out the natural oils/ resin.  The result give the wood a finish that (in my eyes) is between a standard wood finish and a CA finish. Give it a try and let me know your thoughts.  Chip


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