# SPALTING-science meets art



## wood-of-1kind (Jan 1, 2011)

I have been collaborating with a science experiment with a professor who specializes in the study of fungii. Providing various species of pen blanks has yielded the following results:
-spalting  'colour' can be controlled using different types of fungii
-pink (red) fungii penetrates the woods' surface better than blank fungii
-domestic species (ash, maple, cherry) are more receptive to fungii stimulii much more than exotic species (makore, yellowheart)
-an 18 week incubation period (minimum) is required to get good colour penetration in the pen blanks
-the laboratory/controlled process leaves the pen blanks very 'stable' and easy to turn
-no phunky blanks were observed using this process, they're all very solid and do not show any form of structural decay
-there is still a lot of work/experiments to be done in this field and I'm doing my part in the name of science and art (pen turning) to get some exciting patterns/variations that will hopefully provide another category of blanks for pen turners
-will provide additional input as time goes by, but for now I'd like to share a few pics with my friends here at the IAP


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## Drstrangefart (Jan 1, 2011)

COOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL! (Lord almighty I'm a nerd.......)


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## Bellsy (Jan 1, 2011)

Is this something that you picked up from a Seri Robinson demonstration?


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## Mark (Jan 1, 2011)

Has the trial run long enough to get results showing how long it takes for the spalting to fully penetrate the wood? By that I mean that the spalting is not fully turned off, when turning a pen. I see some awesome results on the exterior of the blank. Just wandering if that continues through to the center at any given point in time. Cool project in any case..


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## wood-of-1kind (Jan 1, 2011)

Bellsy said:


> Is this something that you picked up from a Seri Robinson demonstration?



yes, I've been working with her.


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## 1080Wayne (Jan 1, 2011)

Peter

I assume these are local fungal species , so it would be logical that local species would be more affected . Did you start with dry wood or green wood ? Room temperature at 100% humidity ?

Wayne


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## bitshird (Jan 1, 2011)

Pretty neat Peter, I like the pink spalting, it almost makes the maple look like Flame Box Elder..


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## JerrySambrook (Jan 1, 2011)

I am going to pleed to the opposite court on this.

What is being done is introducing fungii that normall do not bother a species, and you are now making it "stronger" so it can adopt itself into a species it could not bother before.

All I now have to say is:

DO we remember Dutch Elm diseas and what it did to the american elm?
Can we say American Chestnut?

Both these species brought just about to extinction due to fungii that do not normally appear in the areas these woods were found.

Can we say FLU? and how it changes every year to adapt to us? but some do not bother people in certain areas yet are brought worldwide by others who are not native to that area?

I personally think this has more, WAY MORE, destructive connotations to it than good.

Lastly, Can anyone say PLUM ISLAND?  and the research facility there, which has also been shown to be an epicenter for some of the bad diseases which are out amongst us now?

Sincerely
Jerry Sambrook


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## wood-of-1kind (Jan 1, 2011)

Mark said:


> Has the trial run long enough to get results showing how long it takes for the spalting to fully penetrate the wood? By that I mean that the spalting is not fully turned off, when turning a pen. I see some awesome results on the exterior of the blank. Just wandering if that continues through to the center at any given point in time. Cool project in any case..



Hi Mark,
the spalting is pretty much halted once the blank is removed from the incubator and then pressurised in a chamber. We are trying to get full penetration to the centre of the pen blanks. Certain fungii 'attack' the wood more aggressively than others. The pink fungii penetrates deep, the black not so much. It's still pretty much a lot of trial and error as we go along. Hoping that there is a good payoff relative to the time spent on this experiment.


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## wood-of-1kind (Jan 1, 2011)

1080Wayne said:


> Peter
> 
> I assume these are local fungal species , so it would be logical that local species would be more affected . Did you start with dry wood or green wood ? Room temperature at 100% humidity ?
> 
> Wayne



Very good point made here Wayne. Local 'likes' local and work more effective together.

All pen blanks used here were kiln dry. The best place to encourage spalting is in the shower where high heat and high humidity work very well in cultivating fungii and encouring spalting.


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## wood-of-1kind (Jan 1, 2011)

bitshird said:


> Pretty neat Peter, I like the pink spalting, it almost makes the maple look like Flame Box Elder..



That's exactly what I was thinking when I first saw the hot pink/red on the maple. It's a pretty colour and we are trying to 'add' new colours as we go further in this experiment:yellow, green blue etc. Each identified fungii has its own unique colour. We are even trying to 'mix' fifferent funfii to get a multi coloured effect. Not so easy since one specie wants to dominate each other. Some fungii are naturally stronger than others and refuse to allow another type to grow on the wood. You can say that the stronger species are very territorial and won't allow 'others' to invade their ground (blank). Some however are more cooporative (passive) and get along with other fungii species.


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## wood-of-1kind (Jan 1, 2011)

JerrySambrook said:


> I personally think this has more, WAY MORE, destructive connotations to it than good.
> 
> Jerry Sambrook



I respect your opinion, but fungii of this sort is NOT dangerous. There are a lot of fears with 'inhaling' spores and turning spalted woods. Yes, some folks may have an allergic reaction to this spalted wood, but then again some folks have allergies towards cats and we still have them around.


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## JerrySambrook (Jan 1, 2011)

Peter, I am not even talking about the allergic reactions or dangers to us.  I am talking directly about the dangers to the trees, and those getting wiped out due to the natural defenses of the trees now being sidestepped by the fungii.

And ALL fungii are dangerous to some sort of organism or another, or else it could not propogate by feeding.


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## wood-of-1kind (Jan 1, 2011)

JerrySambrook said:


> Peter, I am not even talking about the allergic reactions or dangers to us.  I am talking directly about the dangers to the trees, and those getting wiped out due to the natural defenses of the trees now being sidestepped by the fungii.
> 
> And ALL fungii are dangerous to some sort of organism or another, or else it could not propogate by feeding.



The fungii that we are 'breeding' in the laboratory are NOT dangerous to humans or trees. I can't help with those that have fears wether real or imagined. I will forge ahead and continue to experiment in this area. Who knows I may even make a movie like 'The Fly', but may call it The Spalt Monster:wink:


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## JerrySambrook (Jan 1, 2011)

I guess I see someone else with a GOD complex here.

but also one who does not remember history, or disregards it.

And no, I am not a tree hugger, but am one who has learned from history


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## wood-of-1kind (Jan 1, 2011)

JerrySambrook said:


> I guess I see someone else with a GOD complex here.
> 
> but also one who does not remember history, or disregards it.
> 
> And no, I am not a tree hugger, but am one who has learned from history




Lighten up a bit Jerry, you're getting too serious on this topic. I'm sharing info here, no more and no less. I'm sorry if this topic has rubbed you the wrong way, but heck you can disregard my posting(s) if they are a source of irritation.


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## Mark (Jan 1, 2011)

I think it's a very cool avenue to follow. Not like your seeding a forest with fungii to spalt all the wood. Plus, if the process stops in the incubator, hence the fungii are rendered inactive outside of it, there is no possible (escape) to the real world I would think.. Anyway, I'm looking forward to your progress. Very interesting.


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## n7bsn (Jan 1, 2011)

JerrySambrook said:


> I guess I see someone else with a GOD complex here.
> 
> but also one who does not remember history, or disregards it.
> 
> And no, I am not a tree hugger, but am one who has learned from history



Jerry
Might I suggest that you learn more about Fungi and splating?

You could start with the article in the current issue of the AAW journal (written by the very PhD referenced in this thread). 

You could then read the Forest Service publication http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/techline/producing-spalted-wood.pdf

The Ohio State article http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/tabid/5255/default.aspx

The Fine Woodworking Article http://www.finewoodworking.com/Materials/MaterialsArticle.aspx?id=32485 (written again by Sara)

Her regular column is also a good read
http://www.finewoodworking.com/blog/woodworking-life/tag/spalting


For further reading, Alan Lacer's fine piece
http://www.woodturninglearn.net/articles/spaltedwood.htm


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## wood-of-1kind (Jan 1, 2011)

n7bsn (name please )

Thank you so much for attaching Dr. Robinson's article  from the magazine. I've been looking for it in print for some time.


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## JerrySambrook (Jan 1, 2011)

Once again, to both n7bsn and Peter,

Can either of you say American Chestnut, virtually wiped out by a fungus.

Can either of you say American Elm, another virtually wiped out by a virus.

Can either of you say anthrax,  something that was wiped out and reproduced for testing and still gets out into public.

Jerry


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## Bellsy (Jan 1, 2011)

JerrySambrook said:


> Once again, to both n7bsn and Peter,
> 
> Can either of you say American Chestnut, virtually wiped out by a fungus.
> 
> ...



Jerry your pretty quick to respond with a lack of proof or relevance to the fungi your referring too. However your pretty quick to paint this fungi with the same brush that the other fungi caused havoc with within our world. Not all fungi are "bad".......that's the difference between knowing and assuming.


By the way...virus versus fungus?...Is this the apple and orange comparison, or is it a lack of understanding the difference between the two?


Dave


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## Mark (Jan 1, 2011)

n7bsn said:


> JerrySambrook said:
> 
> 
> > I guess I see someone else with a GOD complex here.
> ...



WOW. Excellent post. The articles attached were very enlightening. THank you!


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## JerrySambrook (Jan 1, 2011)

Bellsy said:


> JerrySambrook said:
> 
> 
> > Once again, to both n7bsn and Peter,
> ...



Well Dave, I see that you too recall what happened in this contintent during the early to mid 1900's.

What was the most prevalent tree on the eastern seaboard?  The American Chestnut.  What happened to it?  The Chinese Chestnut was brought into this country as a decorative tree. The Chinese Chestnut also carried a fungus that did in fact help it grow.  However, that fungus was deadly to the American Chestnut.  That is written in history books, so please tell me how I have no basis in saying that.
What happened to the American Elm tree during the 1950's and 1960's?  The same thing due to Dutch Elm disease? Once again, a part of historical fact. I did mistate when I said a virus for the elm.

The anthrax is to show the fact that something that is supposed to be contained, and yet got free.  Same thing with small pox as well. Both well documented even in recent history. 2002 and 2003 we had a worker at a government lab MAILING anthrax to officials to infect them. We lost people who did get infected by it.
So that was why the last was added. Or is it because we are south of the border that you do not know about these incidents?

If you had taken the time to properly read the referenced articles, you will see that they do not even agree with each other.
Some say it can be controlled and disappears as certain temperatures and moisture ranges are exceeded or not met, while another says it just slows down the process and may make it go dormant unti lthe temp is reinstated. So much for even the experts agreeing.

So I would kindly refer you back to your own advice and look at things yourself before mouthing off.

BTW, if you had read earlier posts, you would have seen that I was not even refering to what it might do to us?


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## Bellsy (Jan 1, 2011)

Jerry it seems that after calling you out on this, you finally backed up your own mouth. This could have been avoided if you had done so in the first place, but you seemed to be off on your own God like tangent.....sorry I was just using your own reference to Peter. I am aware of what they say, but I am also aware of what Peter is doing. Peter also stated that the fungi will not be harmful to his project...etc. You on the other hand say that all Fungii are harmful. Well you better go do some more reading and see just what fungii has done for mankind. More good than you are obviously aware of, since your claim is that it is all bad. Medicines and food. The bread you eat has fungi involved in it's basic making. Mushrooms are also a form of fungii.....need I explain this further?

I am actually going to be seeing Seri Robinson myself in a few weeks to discuss this topic of spalting at our next woodturning guild meeting. I have been researching the spalting on my own and look forward to hearing her and seeing her demonstration. I am always open to new ideas and I am aware of what he past has brought us. Mankind and it's human errors have lead to many bad outcomes, some of which were accidental and some of which our own government didn't take enough steps to ensure the public safety.

No two officials or scientists will ever agree on anything. Each have their own opinions and always will. That is what makes us as human beings different from one another. Test results vary and so do the conditions in which they are set up. We only learn from our mistakes and take better steps each time to improve upon them. That's what makes us better, otherwise we would become dormant and never move ahead in life. We strive to become better....it's our nature.

Dave


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## n7bsn (Jan 1, 2011)

Dave (Bellsy)

The problem is, Jerry is confusing apples and oranges. The fungi he is talking about were not native and they are not splating fungi. Rather they are native to eur-asia, where they infect related LIVING trees. These trees, since they evolved with the fungi, have a greater tolerance (NOTE, they can still be killed by these fungi)

The fungi being used in these processes are all native to North America and natively infect DEAD wood, all over North America.


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## JerrySambrook (Jan 1, 2011)

Dave,
     In the states, it is common knowledge about what happened with The American Chestnut and American Elm. I figured no explanation was going to be necessary. 

The fungii that Peter is using may not be harmful to HIS project (as you stated) but it only takes a spore or two to get out, and what will it do to the maples? We have more than enough problems in the forests now with the Ash Borere Beetles, the Ash Yellow, and decline of Ash because of this. We are getting hit with a fungus that is destroying the flowering dogwood.

I do not think that we should be mutating or forcing fungii to attack things that are not normally affected, as now they become stronger and more resiliant to measures taken to supress them. 

And yes, I do create my own spalted pieces by taking fresh cut pieces and placing it in soil with other pieces that do have funus on them. But these are only the ones that occur naturally, and that do affect a piece of wood, but no where near as violently as some of the other introduced fungii.

All I am doing id pointing out that people should think before they do,

Jerry

p.s.  I will be in Kanata on Victoria Day weekend if you want to get together for a coffee or a steak at Charlies

n7bsn,  Jerry is not confusing apples and oranges.   ALL Fungii can be potentially dangerous, even those we normally consume like mushrooms, has the opposite affect on some people and can kill them. and Penecillin, which is made from a fungus as well can kill rather than help some people as well.
but then again, whoever you are, it seems that you have just too much knowledge and KNOW that nothing can mutate as you are forcing it to do. The fungi you are dealing with are changed so they do attack something they normally would not. What is to keep it from attacking LIVE trees?


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## n7bsn (Jan 2, 2011)

JerrySambrook said:


> .
> 
> 
> The anthrax is to show the fact that something that is supposed to be contained, and yet got free.  Same thing with small pox as well. Both well documented even in recent history. 2002 and 2003 we had a worker at a government lab MAILING anthrax to officials to infect them. We lost people who did get infected by it.
> ...



While this is WAY OFF TOPIC, you are not more accurate in this claim then your claim about fungi

Anthrax has never been contained, it was, and is endemic in the wild animal population. Fortunately the cross-infection path to humans is slight.

Lasting the mailings where done in 2001, not 2002/2003. While a government worker was suspected he was never actually charged. If he had been, it would have been interesting to see if he was convicted as the evidence was entirely circumstantial


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## Curly (Jan 2, 2011)

*A bit of Dragnet. "Just the facts ma'am."*

Not to be confrontational or siding with anyone.........yet.:wink:

Jerry can I ask you where in Peter's post did you see that he was using fungi from other parts of the world? I only saw a reference to foreign wood being more resistant than domestics to the fungi. I assume the "experiments" are being done with various native fungi. Peter can you clarify whether you are playing with non-native fungi or stuff from elsewhere? 

Pete


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## pensbydesign (Jan 2, 2011)

my thought is when these native fungi blanks become commercially available are they going to stay native, won't they be shipped all over the place where this strain might not be native.
i agree some caution might be needed.


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## glwalker (Jan 2, 2011)

*Just a comment*

Isn't the joy of seeking out nature's natural beauty more fun and rewarding than trying to artificially create it?  Part of the enjoyment I get from my woodworking is in finding/discovering what nature has created.


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## wood-of-1kind (Jan 2, 2011)

Curly said:


> Peter can you clarify whether you are playing with non-native fungi or stuff from elsewhere?
> 
> Pete



I'm no mad scientist nor is Dr. Robinson, only 'native' fungi are used in this experiment. Furthermore, these fungii species are sold commercially and are very tightly regulated and documented. All sales are logged and records are kept for review. You just can't purchase these samples like you would with harmful 'garbage' sold on the streets.


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## JerrySambrook (Jan 2, 2011)

Pete,  I did not say that anyone was using non-native fungii,  My two examples are what happens when foreign ones are brought into play.

However, what I have perceived as being done in the experiment is that fungii that are native are being forced into a wood species that normally does not occur.  With that being said, how does this happen? Typically, the invading item has to mutate somehow in order to be invasive in something that it will not normally affect. There is where my concern lies, the mutated or changed fungus.
And yes, typically fungus that causes spalting does not attack most living wood, but when mutations start to occur, then what happens?

If anyone here thinks I am attacking personally, then I apologize but I was using sarcasm, because it does throw a thought typically deeper into someones head.

As for the Anthrax, there is so little left in this hemisphere that occurs naturally, that our govt laboratories create it in order to keep researching it to come up with "cures" incase someone else in the world wants to make a "dirty bomb" with it. That was why I used it as an example of a "controlled substance" that was able to be gotten out into the world.
The reason that the worker never got charge was because he comitted suicide when they were ready to arrest him, which was in 2002 that they were going to arrest him.

As far as bing confrontational. yes I am being a little bit because it was thrown at me when I was first posting about this on other forums (i.e AAW),
and it is perceived by me that the original poster, as well as another individual who does not have the ability (fortitude) to use his name in public, was only reading what he wanted to read and not the whole item as to what was being said.

Peter, (wood of 1 kind), all I am trying to do is get someone to think about consequenses above the immediate and obvious here.
As stated, I like working with woods more than with the plastics, and it would be wonderful to have this all work out nicely, but the possible side effects in this case can be devastating

Jerry


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## leestoresund (Jan 2, 2011)

Maybe the argument is a little premature. (Maybe not, there are climate changers who think the world is going to hell in a handbasket in the next 5 years.)
My, admittedly unscientific, experience with manufactured spalting is to throw a hunk of maple in the stream and let it sit for 18 months. Works great.
They've only been doing this 18 weeks.

If people (scientist, inventors, etc) did not experiment and take chances we'd never get anywhere nor would we progress. Some things work, more don't.
People get killed with poor aircraft design, even when designed by experts.

Lee


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## n7bsn (Jan 2, 2011)

JerrySambrook said:


> ...
> The reason that the worker never got charge was because he comitted suicide when they were ready to arrest him, which was in 2002 that they were going to arrest him.
> 
> As far as bing confrontational. yes I am being a little bit because it was thrown at me when I was first posting about this on other forums (i.e AAW),
> and it is perceived by me that the original poster, as well as another individual who does not have the ability (fortitude) to use his name in public, was only reading what he wanted to read and not the whole item as to what was being said.



Sigh, it would help your "case" if you actually got any facts right

He committed suicide in 2008, not 2002. The FBI only claimed they were going to arrest him, after he was dead. According to "insiders" they never charged him because the case was so weak they couldn't get an indictment

As for my identity, like on must forums (like the AAW), I use my Ham Radio call-sign, which means I am using an ID issued to me by the Federal Government. 

Might I again suggest you actually learn something about those things you are talking about. Rather then going on in wild speculation.

I can understand why you claim to be the most "moderated" member, you make wild statements, when your "facts" are shown not to be, you over react.


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## jbthbt (Jan 2, 2011)

Come on guys seriously, don't you even pay attention to the the movies? The worlds going to end next year anyway, so who cares if all the trees are dead. I read it on the internet one time and everything on the internet is true.


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## JerrySambrook (Jan 2, 2011)

To the one who is afraid to use his own name,

Why are you trying to hide the fact that these things occurred rather than trying to hide because a date is incorrect?

A little of the truth is too much for you?

Or is it because there is no culpability for someone who wants to remain anonymous?

The anthrax case occurred even though it was supposed to be contained.
Is there a reason it should remain hidden?
As for bringing it up, once again, it is only to show that something that is supposed to be contained can get out.

Sorry you cannot understand that little fact


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## Lulanrt (Jan 2, 2011)

After reading this post something dawned on me I know some of us on her sale pen blanks should we be sending salted wood around the US or to other countries for that matter? Sounds like some of you guys are the experts what do you think? Also what is your end game with this experiment?  One more thing I have found the red spalting that you show in a few species in the wild, Maple (not Box Elder), Pear and one unidentified species.  My opinion what you are doing is both cool and dangerous but kind of takes the excitement of looking what mother nature comes up with on her own.


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## Curly (Jan 3, 2011)

Something that should be remembered is that wood from all over the world is imported as pallets, crates and dunnage with the products we buy. There are also shiploads of wood, both in log and cut form, that is exported all over the world and some of it returns, just like the foreign wood does, as packaging material. Most of it ends up rotting (spalting too  ), when it's usefulness to us is past, and it returns to the soil somewhere. Lots of finished wood products eventually suffer the same fate :frown:. This has been going on for centuries. 

Are a few lab experiments with the same fungi that surround us all the time, conducted to understand the process, going to be any different than all the uncontrolled and unobserved spalting across the continent going on all the time? I doubt it.

Pete


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## Dr Spalting (Jan 6, 2011)

*Those big, bad fungi are gonna get you!*

Hello everyone,

I've watched this thread evolve over the past several days, and think it has gone a bit far.  Please allow me to set the record straight.

- The fungi used for controlled spalting are native to North America and most of Europe.  They are non-pathenogenic to humans AND non-pathenogenic to trees.  

- In controlled spalting experiments, no one is 'forcing' fungi to do anything.  You can't force a fungus to grow on a piece of wood anyway.  Either it does or it doesn't.  

- Fungi in the forest are dispersed in several methods, one of which is by air.  Air currents carry the spores to new logs for colonization.  Its a misconception to think that a fungus that grows on a sugar maple doesn't have access in nature to say, oaks.  The spores land and grow wherever they can.

- Even if the pen blanks were spalted with restricted fungi (which they are not), the blanks are autoclaved before leaving the lab.  Nothing gets out.  Not that it would matter if it did.

- Nothing is being 'introduced' into the wild.  We aren't secretly plotting to take over the world by releasing mutated Turkey Tail on an unsuspecting sugar maple population.  Dead Man's Finger isn't going to end the lumber industry, or civilization, as we know it.  There is nothing we do in the lab that is not identical to what could happen in nature, except that we kill everything before it leaves the lab.

So please, relax.  You guys give us way too much mad scientist credit.  We're too underfunded for that.  :bulgy-eyes:


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## VampMN (Jan 7, 2011)

Dr Spalting said:


> So please, relax.  You guys give us way too much mad scientist credit.  We're too underfunded for that.  :bulgy-eyes:



HaHa!! Thanks for your post. Looks like it will help clear up a lot of questions.


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## Bellsy (Jan 22, 2011)

I for one would just like to say Thanks Dr. Spalting (Seri) for your informative demonstration about Spalting last weekend at our Guild meeting. It was very informative, well planned and removed a lot of misconceptions that I have been reading about. 

I am looking forward to making the incubating chamber to start my own experiments. I am also looking forward to some walks in the maple sugar bush this spring/summer to find the fungi required.

Dave





Dr Spalting said:


> Hello everyone,
> 
> I've watched this thread evolve over the past several days, and think it has gone a bit far.  Please allow me to set the record straight.
> 
> ...


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## wood-of-1kind (Jan 22, 2011)

Thanks for your input Dave. Seri is a wonderful presenter and second to none in her 'spalting' knowledge.


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## nativewooder (Jan 22, 2011)

I wondered how long it would take for Dr. Robinson's work to reach the public.  So now we know that the results might end the world, create a new world, or just not do anything but theoretically color dead wood.  Isn't that wonderful?!  I myself believe that no matter what lifeform causes good things or bad things to happen, Mother Earth will cleanse the planet, eliminate the causes of damage and keep on turnin'!:biggrin:


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