# Segmented turning question.



## armyturner (Oct 17, 2006)

I have a few questions about segmented glue ups. In the tutorials that I have seen the glue ups have been done with CA glue. On the flatwork that I have done the glue joints have been stronger then the wood itself using a high quality wood glue (which is extremely cheaper than CA). I would think that the wood glue would provide a considerable savings for those who do a lot of segmented work.

1. Would this work on segmented pens, or will the wood glue fail during turning?
2. Do we just use CA for glue ups because it is quick? 
3. Would the wood glue cause any adverse reactions with the CA or Poly when glueing in the tubes?


----------



## jaywood1207 (Oct 17, 2006)

I don't have the answers but I also look forward to the answers.  Good questions.


----------



## Snazzypens (Oct 17, 2006)

I do all mine with the woodglue because a lot of CA I have severe reaction to and I don't have a hassle with blow aparts. So I hope that helps a bit
Toni


----------



## Snazzypens (Oct 17, 2006)

oh and I forgot to add, I have not had a reaction with the glue onto the tube.
Toni


----------



## twoofakind (Oct 17, 2006)

If I am doing a simple glue up I use CA glue. If I am doing one that I feel I need more prep time I use poly glue. The both have their advantages and disadvantages. The CA is quick and easy, but it may not allow for you to get everything lined up the way you want. The poly has great workable time, but it needs to cure for 24 hours before I would put stress on the joints. I would say just experiment with both and see what works best for you and have fun with it.[]
Andy


----------



## ctEaglesc (Oct 17, 2006)

> I would think that the wood glue would provide a considerable savings for those who do a lot of segmented work.



 I started making pens over 2 years ago.My third pen was a segmented spiral.Though I had a some flat work experience, to me glue was the "insurance", not an integral part of the project.In gluing up blanks for pens,the choice of adhesive becomes more of a factor in the finished piece.At first I used CA because it was quick after a while I discovered there were times when diffrent adhesives had their advantages.
My first "complicated lamination was the "sexy pen"






<br />There are 29 pieces of wood in the blank ,eight glue up sessions, 4 cutting sessions and if I stay on schedule 3 days to make.(Just for the blank turning /finishing not included) to get the effect I wanted.Because of the method I used to make this blank I chose to use yellow glue, I have made it with CA and there are no adverse effects, but if the ca set before it gets clamped up the blank is toast.



> 1. Would this work on segmented pens, or will the wood glue fail during turning?


The only draw back I have found using yellow gue is shrinkage in the glue joint, but that might just be my own bad habit of wanting to "finish" and turn the blank.Also there is a slight color difference depending on the choice of PVA glue.


> 2. Do we just use CA for glue ups because it is quick?


For myself that is one reason but there is another benifit I haven't seen mentioned. I have a theory that CA also"stabilizes" the  pieces I am gluing.This is especially true when I am using a lot of thin strips and end grain.
"Stirred Not shaken" was glued up using a bad piece of flaming box elder as a base(try and find it) with veneers of bloodwood, puple heaqrt and yellow heart.As I turned it ther  was a feeling I was turning a stabilized blank. Had I used yellow glue for this one I would still be gluing it.



In One for Giving(my first Pentarsia pen) because of the size of the pieces, the number of pieces and the intricacy of the design I don't think yellow glue would have worked.





<br />


> 3. Would the wood glue cause any adverse reactions with the CA or Poly when glueing in the tubes?



I have never noticed any.One thing I have noticed, If I want to soak a bad glue up in acetone to salvage the tubes, If the acetone has any effect on the glued up joints so I can salvage the tube, it takes much longer if it debonds at all.

In closing, there are other adhesives that I have used.Gorilla glue(messy). That is my main complaint, the fact it has a long open time is a plus but I don't like to wait the prescribed time for the cure.
Resorcinol.I have used it and the bond was good but the stuff I had was old and I did not get the color I was after.Water based dark glues have a tendancy to get a color bleed it lighter woods.there are methods to over come this but I chooses not to use it,.
Epoxy  for my is my last choice.If I mix too much it's wasted if I don't mix enough it can ruin a glue up session.Also I have experienced more joint failures with epoxy than any other adhesive.I realize the this is the choice of adhesive with  many who make glued up blanks but I have bad luck with it.
That's my take on different adhesives and my experience with them.I am by no means a master of "gluery"[], I have more than my share of failures,this I attribute to a lot of trial and error.Remember it tool me over 2 years to make all the mistakes I have in glueing up blanks, but if you believe you learn from your mistakes the I guess I have a lot to learn from.I guess that is called experience.[]


----------



## Mike_in_CA (Oct 17, 2006)

Eagle,
After seeing your work, I think you could write a tutorial on the segment glue ups. Although, I do understand that's a ton of work.

My problem with very simple segments has been how to clamp up the pieces when everything can have different angles. I've only done three so far. I decided I had to make a sled for cutting angles first. Thanks for the pics.
Mike


----------



## kent4Him (Oct 17, 2006)

Eagle, I must say that your pens are amazing.I've done some segmented pens, but nothing comes even close to these.


----------



## PenWorks (Oct 17, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Mike_in_CA_
> <br />Eagle,
> After seeing your work, I think you could write a tutorial on the segment glue ups.
> Mike



I think it would need to be a tell all book []
Eagle is one of a few who has this down pat.
Not only the quality of the segementing, but the
design aspect of what he is segmenting. []


----------



## Ron in Drums PA (Oct 17, 2006)

There are some segmented turnings which where completed 5-8 years ago that used CA. Many are begining to fall apart.

So my answer would be.

If you want quick and easy, use CA glue.

If you want something to last, use yellow glue.

If you need a slow drying glue that also lasts, use white glue  (elmers).

There are many things that can be use to hold pieces together while the glue is drying. 
To name a few
Rubber bands
Saran wrap
String
Masking tape
Shipping tape

A good thing to do is to dry fit first, like a practice run so to speak. Good Luck


----------



## ctEaglesc (Oct 17, 2006)

> My problem with very simple segments has been how to clamp up the pieces when everything can have different angles.


Clamps?
What are those and why do you need to use them?
With CA if you have a good joint there isn't a need for clamps.[]
Do you think for one minute I used any clamps in the pen with the cross in the window?
BTW here's another one I didn't mention
Lite brite, how would you clamp that?
It was done with CA and a form.
The tutorial can be found on the TPS site.
This is actually the second one I made and no clamps were used in the making of this pen




<br />

ANgles? you want angles?
Here's angles,CA and  again no clamps
This was called the 120 cut spiral.




<br />


----------



## broitblat (Oct 17, 2006)

I have heard references before to yellow glue shrinking over time, and Eagle's experience seems to confirm that.

Does anyone know over how long a period of time the yellow glue will continue to shrink?


----------



## ctEaglesc (Oct 17, 2006)

> There are some segmented turnings which where completed 5-8 years ago that used CA. Many are begining to fall apart.


Now there's an interesting  statement.(insert rotflmao smiley here)
How about there are some yellow glue table tops that are delaminating.
There are some antique pieces of furninture with hide glue joint failure.
There are a lot of things made with wood that react to seasonal changes that even a glue joint won't hold.
What type of segmented "turnings" are you referring to?
What type of CA was used?
Was an accelerant also used thus making the glue joint brittle?
Don't mean to start a war but then again I don't mind squashing rumors either.[^]


----------



## vick (Oct 17, 2006)

Just my 2 cents.
I fully believe that CA glue is not as strong as some other glues in the long run or even the short run especially when it comes to shear stength.  However I feel that 5-8 years is in acceptable amount of time for a wood pen to last.  It would not consider it an aceptable amount of time for a segmented wood bowl to last.

If I can use another glue I will however with a lot of the segmented designs it is implactical to use any thing else. I would say CA glue is used on about %80 to %90 of my segmented pens, but ralrely used for laminated pens that can be easily clamped.


----------



## ctEaglesc (Oct 17, 2006)

Intellegent observation Vick especially the part about how long a turned bowl should last.
I wouldn't think of using CA on something like that.


----------



## vick (Oct 17, 2006)

Thanks Eagle you know how much I value your opinion.


----------



## ed4copies (Oct 17, 2006)

So, if I am making laminated peppermills and small bowls, I take a chance with CA. (Got that!)

Of course, today's wood glues (white and yellow) are better than yesterday's.

But, what has the best history of "lack of failure"?


----------



## Ron Mc (Oct 17, 2006)

Eagle..."the 120 cut spiral" was that ever completed? I don't recall seeing a picture of it. It appears that it will be a great completed pen and I would like to see a picture if possible.


----------



## Ron in Drums PA (Oct 17, 2006)

> _Originally posted by vick_
> <br />However I feel that 5-8 years is in acceptable amount of time for a wood pen to last.  It would not consider it an aceptable amount of time for a segmented wood bowl to last.



You raise a good point, I would agree with you on a B2B $20 pen.

But what about a $250, highly crafted, segmented pen?


----------



## vick (Oct 17, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Ron in Drums PA_
> <br />
> 
> 
> ...



If I paid $250.00 for a pen I would be pissed if it failed in 5 years.  Very few pen turners are selling wood pens in this price range (I can only think of one or two). I just do not see a reasonable alternative for some of the segmented glue ups, if I did I would use it.  Their is also a difference on if the pen is going to be put in a display case or used daily. A wood pen used daily for 5 years is probably going to take alot of abuse and I have serious doubts on what condition it would be in after 5 years.  Take my opinion with a grain of salt I have only been turning pens for about 3 or 4 years and have been doing segmented pens for less than a year and 1/2 so I can not speak intellignetly about prolonged use.  Most of our pens would qualify as daily writers and I would not expect than to hold up and look decent after more than a few years of use.


----------



## Ron in Drums PA (Oct 17, 2006)

> _Originally posted by ed4copies_
> <br />So, if I am making laminated peppermills and small bowls, I take a chance with CA. (Got that!)
> 
> Of course, today's wood glues (white and yellow) are better than yesterday's.
> ...



There was an article in a magazine a few years back that did a study and yellow glue won. Of course they where talking about flat work.

In most cases with yellow or white glue, failure happens because of a bad glue joint. It is known that CA glue becomes brittle, which causes the problems, no matter how good your joints are. Top of of that CA glue also discolors over time, something which yellow glue does not.


----------



## Ron in Drums PA (Oct 17, 2006)

> _Originally posted by vick_
> <br />
> 
> 
> ...



Again we agree.

But we all need to think about how long a highly crafted pen will last if we want to move into the high end market place.


----------



## ctEaglesc (Oct 17, 2006)

Though anecdotal I ran across this link regarding CA at Wood Central.
http://www.woodcentral.com/cgi-bin/readarticle.pl?dir=turning&file=articles_466.shtml
The remark I found most interesting was CA being used in model airplanes for 20 years.
I believe there is no panacea for any adhesive.
I use the type of adhesive that will work the best, and I as the craftsman will determine what I consider the best.
As a side note I am sure NASA uses the best adhesives they can find for the shuttle and we know what problems that has caused.
I have also heard where epoxy also yellows over time.
Ivory a very much sought after pen making material yellows over time.
Poly ureathane adhesives are even newer than CA glue we havent heard anything concerning its' longevity.


----------



## vick (Oct 17, 2006)

I also think we are in agreement Ron. I do not do laminated or segmented pens to move into the high end market I do them because I enjoy making them.  If I can use $5 in materials and sell a pen for $75 that will last through daily use for a couple years I would guess that both parties will be happy with the transaction.  I am realistic in what I produce it is not art to sit on a wall they are pens that will hopefully be used and enjoyed on a daily basis.
A pen takes abuse if it is used and any pen that is used daily will get beat up to a point be it a Parker or a Vickery.  I think in general wood pens will get more beat up because wood is probably not the best material for a pen.  We make them out of wood because we love wood and love working with wood, we appreciate the natural beauty of wood and of course people buy them.  With that natural beauty comes a certain amount of frailty that we have to accept.  When we start glueing and joining the wood this natural frailty is increased as is the beauty of the piece (hopefully).
I will let the people selling segmented glue ups in the high end price range worry about how their customers feal about their product 5 or 10 years down the road.  It is very probable that because many segmented pens are made from thin material with the grain going in different direction they will be more stable and handle ageing better (kind of like plywood) than a segmented bowl or furniture joints.  I am not sure though so I would guess we will have to wait and see what happens.


----------



## Ron in Drums PA (Oct 17, 2006)

> _Originally posted by ed4copies_
> <br />So, if I am making laminated peppermills and small bowls, I take a chance with CA. (Got that!)
> 
> Of course, today's wood glues (white and yellow) are better than yesterday's.
> ...



Ed, check out this article
http://woodcentral.com/russ/russ6.shtml


----------



## Ron in Drums PA (Oct 17, 2006)

> _Originally posted by vick_
> <br />I also think we are in agreement Ron. I do not do laminated or segmented pens to move into the high end market I do them because I enjoy making them.  If I can use $5 in materials and sell a pen for $75 that will last through daily use for a couple years I would guess that both parties will be happy with the transaction.




Like you, I do segmented pens because I like to. I have no intentions of selling pens in that market. 

I think a $75 pen is in a gray area, not really high end but expensive enough that I'd like to see it last more than a few years. Heck, I bought a $60 dial caliper not to long ago and I hope it will last a life time. I would think most poeple would expect a $75 pen to last a really long time.


----------



## emackrell (Oct 17, 2006)

> Ed, check out this article
> http://woodcentral.com/russ/russ6.shtml



What an informative article!  Thanks for posting Ron. 

Cheers  Eileen  [8D]


----------



## dozer (Oct 18, 2006)

The tutorial can be found on the TPS site.

Don't know if I have ever seen this site, Does anyone have a link to the site?

Thanks Mike


----------



## ctEaglesc (Oct 18, 2006)

> _Originally posted by dozer_
> <br />The tutorial can be found on the TPS site.
> 
> Don't know if I have ever seen this site, Does anyone have a link to the site?
> ...



Here's the link
http://www.thepenshop.net/
the Lite Brite pictutorial is on the right side of the page listed under"quest for knowledge"


----------

