# Humble Opinion



## Stephen (Mar 22, 2008)

This forum is really great and I have learnt a lot as a beginner in a short period of time in pen making as a Hobby. I am more knowledgeable than proficient in making pens. Theory and not practical. I hope to catch up. Unfortunately at this stage of pen making I am not able to contribute to the forums. Only at the receiving end. Sorry and thank you all very much. Great help from members with E-mails etc..
I have discovered the information in the Library /Search and past forums extremely useful and educational.
However, my observation to some of the responses to newbees is promptly directed to past postings. I am therefore, most reluctant,although I have braved and asked some stupid questions. No offence meant from a newbee intruding into a forum of experienced professionals. Sorry if I have done that.
If I may express my opinion I would like to say that responses with new ideas may come up even for past questions from  some of the members who had responded/not responded to the same query previously. Or even new ideas that develop with time. I hope some encouragement be given to new /old questions.
With this I rest and will take cover if there is a big blast. Thanks and be kind. LOL


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## karlkuehn (Mar 22, 2008)

Stephen makes a good point. I've seen a growing indifference  and/or 'edginess' lately from a lot of people (myself included) regarding questions/points raised by new members, especially when the topic has been discussed in the past, and there's been a lot of responses that I think could've been handled with a little more finesse. 

These responses range from helpful but mildly corrective ("here's a short version of what my response was six months ago" usually accompanied by an abrupt tutorial about using the search button) to downright rude ("this has been done to death, try a search").

We need to keep in mind that there are many people reading this forum for the first time, or lurking and reading for a while without having the nerve to ask direction because they're afraid that they won't have a 'valuable' contribution until they've become a master craftsman at what the vast majority of the population here considers a hobby.

Bottom line about the search tool here is that it's a bit clunky and confusing, and if it worked well consistently, we'd be able to use it to bring up discussions about that fact. If a person doesn't know exactly how to enter parameters to narrow down a search, it ends up churning until it times out or gets so granular that it only comes up with one result that doesn't have any usable information, and God help you if you try to use the 'advanced' search, who knows what you'll come up with. 

Realistically, the best search tool on this site is us! Between all of us we have a communal knowledge that far outdistances the ability of any search engine to give accurate and pointed responses to a given question, but we seem to be losing the compassion and tact that makes this forum the friendliest and most comfortable place to come and share ideas.

I've been trying to do better at responding to honest questions with more than just one line responses based on the fact that I'm getting an increasing number of PM's from people who've never posted because they're leery about sounding green or getting chastised for raising previously discussed points.

A little patience will go a long way towards making new friends and building the great community we have. You never know what future guru is out there wanting to post, but hesitant because no one likes to be made to feel stupid.

If you want to read examples of what I'm talking about, do a search on "try search", and look at the number and types of responses that have been being posted of late.

Hope I didn't trod on anyone's toes harder than my own.


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## CrazyBear (Mar 22, 2008)

I have to agree with you Karl.. When I joined this board some months ago I did so because I was interested in penturning. I am proficient on the computer but I admit that I have not gone back and read every post that has been written previously. Have a look back over the last few days and you will realise just how many posts this Forum generates.

If I have a question I will ask it and I would trust that I would recieve the answer or at least generate a discussion about the question. If I recieved the response that some new members have been recieving lately ( ie Go do a search) I dont think that I would have bothered to stick around.

If you cant be bothered to answer the question yet again..then dont. Let someone else try to answer it. It doesnt do the forum any good if we gain the reputation of being Grumpy old men who cant be bothered to help someone out. After all.. Someone obviously answered YOUR questions in the past


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## Blind_Squirrel (Mar 22, 2008)

Let's not forget the adage "If you give someone a fish, they can eat for a day. If you teach someone to fish, they can eat for a lifetime".  

I try to give enough of an answer to get the person started e.g. brief descripton or a link to a previous thread (a small fish), then suggest they use the search function for more information (fishing).


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## karlkuehn (Mar 22, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Blind_Squirrel_
> 
> Let's not forget the adage "If you give someone a fish, they can eat for a day. If you teach someone to fish, they can eat for a lifetime".
> 
> I try to give enough of an answer to get the person started e.g. brief descripton or a link to a previous thread (a small fish), then suggest they use the search function for more information (fishing).



That's a good thought, too. I agree that it's important that people learn how to find what they need on here.

Unfortunately, many of the responses have been more like someone being put out because a new person is hungry, and instead of giving them a small fish and some advice, they just hand them a hammer and tell them to go bonk their own fish, and good luck, now go away kid, ya bother meee...

Is that the best W.C. you've ever seen or what?! You should see my Chewbacca.


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## leehljp (Mar 22, 2008)

The problem is the different personalities on any given forum. Some people get tired of rehashing old questions over and over and think that each new discussion and question should be built upon the previous, not discussing past issues.

This ignores the idea of community for inviting new people in. To me, It perpetrates the idea that certain ones have gained status and the 'ones in the know' have the need to be the 'ones that answer most of the questions', but it just does not want to discuss old questions over and over. So irritation sets in like rigor mortis and the old adage of "do a search" without offering suggestions comes across as "I don't really care for you here."

The second part to this is the newbie that comes across arrogant or totally lazy in the way that a question is asked. There is a right way to ask questions.

The older generation of users here are already set in their ways and so am I. So my suggestion to each of you new ones is to be tolerant and realize that three years down the road, if you make it that long, - as new ones come and you get tired of answering the same question over and over . . . let some of the intermediate users respond and become the teachers. It won't hurt you to step back and not answer questions all the time. AND please remember, answering the same question to a newbie three years from now, even thought it has been discussed many times, will build community. But then again, some people don't care for that. 

My natural personality is strongly in the "get the job done" area with a penchant against the social interaction aspect, but I work on it and realize that without people, I will be on my own! While I like "re-inventing the wheel all over again" I also like seeing how others do it.


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## karlkuehn (Mar 22, 2008)

Well said, Hank, excellent points. I definitely agree about the newbies and how a few have come across in their initial offerings. There's been times when I just have to roll my eyes and look the other way. 

You also make a great point about feeling pressure about the responsibility to answer or have input on every last little discussion. Like you said, there's no need for that here, because many times as a person progresses into an intermediate presence, it's better to hear their thoughts on the subject because they're going to skin a cat a little differently than anyone before them. They say that the best way to learn something is to teach it to someone else, and by getting out of the way and letting them take the reins, the 'teacher' can benefit and grow the craft.

That's not to say that the vets shouldn't chime in with suggestions and opinions, but the responses should be of a positive nature, or not at all. 

When reading Stephen's post, I just ended up with a vision of a generation of us sitting around in our rocking chairs drinking geritol and congratulating ourselves on being masters of the universe while it passes us by because were a bunch of crotchety old coots. heh

Who took my pills!? [}][]


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## rincewind03060 (Mar 22, 2008)

As a quasi-newbee, I'd like to throw my two cents in.

The search engine is not the best and besides sometimes I am so ignorant on a subject that I don't even know the best key words to use. I try to search first before I ask, but I don't always find what I'm looking for even though it is in a previous thread. So I ask.

I understand getting short shrift from old timers if the topic has been hammered into the ground within the last few months. But provide a link to the relevent thread; don't just tell the questioner to "try a search". I suspect that often, like me, they have already tried a search and were unsuccessful.


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## Dario (Mar 22, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Blind_Squirrel_
> 
> Let's not forget the adage "If you give someone a fish, they can eat for a day. If you teach someone to fish, they can eat for a lifetime".
> 
> I try to give enough of an answer to get the person started e.g. brief descripton or a link to a previous thread (a small fish), then suggest they use the search function for more information (fishing).



Good post, as is Hank's.  There are different facets to this problem (not just one or 2)

I recently did this and got "hammered".  I didn't say it then but I felt really bad and almost decided to stop giving advise all together.  Went as far as me consulting a couple of people/member (though email) who I know go through some bashing by trying to help.  While they are still very much active...they gave up their "crusade" which I find sad.

Is this why some older members decide to move on and stop posting?

Though it is more difficult to some than others, Hank's point about letting someone else (newer member) take the helm is a great one.  I do (still) remember how I was as a newbie and sometimes become over zealous trying to answer questions I know how to answer.  Hard as it may be to believe (looking at my post count) but I am actually holding back my posts already LOL.


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## cd18524 (Mar 22, 2008)

Maybe a new forum is in order.  There is one for general penturning and one for advanced penturning, why not one for beginners.  The beginners can feel free to post their questions without fear and those that want to provide the answers can choose to.  Those that don't want to read/answer the same question can just not open that forum.  
Just a thought.

Chris


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## Robert Taylor (Mar 22, 2008)

i agree. i'm mostly afraid to ask questions as a "newbie" myself. as i ponder attending the "mpg" in champaign next saturday i wonder if i would fit in or just be in the "pros" way. considering the cost of fuel and an eight hour drive from northeast ohio. i do however learn much by reading even though i have nothing much to contribute at this stage of my hobby. just thinking out loud, bob

i will probably get hammered for my lack of typing skills, but hey, i only have one finger that knows how to type and he ain't all that good.


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## doddman70 (Mar 22, 2008)

Very well said by everybody!!! I myself donâ€™t understand why it seems to bother people when a question comes up that has been talked about before. just because a topic is posted does not mean that you have to read it or respond to it. by bringing up a topic again you might get some new info that didnâ€™t come up before. I can definitely see how sometimes someone could be put off by some of the responses of "its been talked about before try a search" to me that does not sound very inviting and may make some people reluctant to post at all. JMHO also I do believe that this subject has come up before. maybe that in itself should tell us something.


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## dalemcginnis (Mar 22, 2008)

Another problem with the search is it is not consistent.  Yesterday I did a search and got two pages of results, just now I did the same search and it came back with nineteen pages.
Now, do you expect a newbie to open every post on 19 pages to find if any of them have the info they're looking for?  Seems a bit overwhelming to me.
I also did a search on "band saw blades", while it had fewer results there were 10 entries in the SOYP forum. I seriously doubt the info I was looking for is in one of those posts but how is someone new to the forum to know that.

Another factor is, at least in my situation is I have no local turner to go to for advice or information so everything I learned is through books, videos, and this site.  When I run into a problem I can't figure out I don't want to spend hours searching the web or this site to find the answer, I want help so I can get back to turning.

Because of my situation I am already thinking about the day when I will no longer be able to turn and hoping that I'll be able to find some worthy soul to pass my tools on to and be the tutor for them that I don't have.  In the mean time I'll pass on what knowledge I have here.  If you more experienced turners are tired of answering the same questions then don't.  There are plenty of others here that have not gotten tired and grumpy yet.


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## CaptG (Mar 22, 2008)

Glad to see this come up.  While not a "newbie" any more, I still come up with questions I would like HELP with.  But after reading several of the responses that come across as,( Are you too stupid to figure this out for yourself?  You are just wasting my time.  I do not have time to TEACH you how to help yourself.) I hesitate to ask a question now unless I have spent hours running circles attempting to find my answer so as to not offend anyone with my "stupidity".  Hours I could have spent turning something special if some one on this site gave me the info or direction directly to the info that I was looking for.  I see a lot of great resposes to this topic and hope finding answers will become a more "social experiance".  You are more likely to consider the person who gave a pleasant reply a friend, and think of the other person as a pompous jerk not worth getting to know.
   Now, did I hear someone say us old coots get to go fishing??


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## Dario (Mar 22, 2008)

Please check this thread (specifically my response).

http://www.penturners.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=34230

I want to know if I was out of line and what should I do so my response will be more "friendly".  I want to learn from it and hear more seeing it from newbies point of view.

Thanks.


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## Ron in Drums PA (Mar 22, 2008)

I hear what you guys are saying, and like Dario mentioned, it is a multifaced problem. I've noticed that many forums tend to turn over their membership every 18 months or so. IAP has some real old-timers compared to other places on the web. One problem is some of us old-timers forget what it was like to be a newbie while others are just plain tired of seeing the same topic repeated over and over again. Others have ground in opinions and feel their way is the only way, luckily IAP doesn't have to many of this type around.

I try to keep my advice to tools and equipment and this advice comes from what I have learned by doing and making my share of mistakes. I'm not an expert, I still make mistakes and feel that I still have allot to learn.

Like Dario, I get hammered at times when I give advice and it's very frustrating. The last time this happen I got some pretty nasty PMs and emails. Sometimes it's just easier to say "Do A Search" instead of putting up with the nonsense. But, I try to do my penance by giving advice because of all the questions I asked when I started.


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## DCBluesman (Mar 22, 2008)

Let's not get crazy here.  Yes, there are times when some of us long-term members fire off a quick "Use the Search feature" answer, BUT, for the most part this is the most sharing group I have ever seen on the internet.  We have just finished beating this horse in this thread, http://www.penturners.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=34893 , and there are many excellent posts.  For those of you who are hesitant to ask questions, fearing that you will get your head bitten off, please keep in mind that unless you live down the street from me, it is unlikely I could reach out and throttle you or even throw a rock at you.  You have nothing to fear from me or the other forum members. And accept our apologies in advance if we are curt with you.  Perhaps we are just having a bad day.  It happens. [8D]


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## woody0207 (Mar 22, 2008)

As a semi-newbie myself I check the library and use the search function extensively before I ask a question given the huge amount of information in this website. That said, I think there are many of us who enjoy the personal interactions along with getting the desired information.

Regarding the search function, there do seem to be a serious issue with advanced search. I say this knowing that *Jeff does an outstanding job *on this website. 

An example of the problem: On the advanced search page, on the keyword field I entered "skew davidson" (without the quotes) and got a server timeout. Webserver timeouts are bad.  Does anyone else get timeouts when they search?

Perhaps the advanced search page could be improved by increasing the server timeout (Server.ScriptTimeout = _nn_) which would allow the server more time to complete a search. Just a humble suggestion from an ex-Web developer.


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## Johnathan (Mar 22, 2008)

I totally agree with much that has been said. I don't think it's wrong to point newbies in a direction of some of our past posts, but to do so with an underlining feeling of "don't ask us again," is wrong. I don't think newbies should feel stifled. If you don't want to answer, don't, but there is no need to take the time to be rude, just point them in the right direction and offer to help if they have any questions. I do agree that many are asking questions that have been discussed at length, offer them a link and maybe a few points of your own. I don't think newbies should ever feel like they can't play on the big playground as there are no dividing lines. We are all on the same road to improvement. We should all be encouraging support and comments from the newer members as I believe those that are thinking less conventional, will help to bring about new ideas that the older turners would have passed by IMHO. I'm glad this was posted and hopefully can shed a better light on a problem here, older turners, lighten up and have some fun. You learn more when you teach. The amount of stars is not equal to the amount of knowledge, I know I have a huge amount to learn, and have met those with little posts that know far more than I. Okay enough...[8D]


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## tas2181 (Mar 22, 2008)

Due to the "clunky" nature of the search function, I belive if someone who has participated in or is aware of the availability of an answer to a 'newbie' question, the best response would be to list a couple of keywords to do a search with that would lead the questioner to the previous post.
As a moderator on a scroll saw site I know that it gets old giving the same response to a question over and over again.
So rather than retyping the whole response, give the questioner a clue as to how to get to the answer.
Dario, I know you meant well with your response in the thread you mention, but the 'tone' of your answer starting with "Do yourself a favor" seemed a little condescending to me.


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## MarkHix (Mar 22, 2008)

I've been here since July so I'm not a newbie but not an old hand either.  There was a sense of trepidation when I put out a question that I knew was somewhere in the older posts but could not find.  I don't ask many questions.  The ones I have asked, I have not had any repercussions so maybe I was here on a good day.  Along the same line, I learned as much from some of the comments on my work as I did thru the questions I asked.  I like the idea of a New Turner's section.  Of course, you can't have a section for everything.  Maybe a special section in the library would be better. 

Just my opinion.


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## Dario (Mar 22, 2008)

> _Originally posted by tas2181_
> 
> 
> Dario, I know you meant well with your response in the thread you mention, but the 'tone' of your answer starting with "Do yourself a favor" seemed a little condescending to me.



It is not my intent and I mean what I said word for word.

Thank you and noted.  I will try to use better choice of words later.


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## OldWrangler (Mar 22, 2008)

Are you guys really worried about "getting hammered" for asking a dumb question. That is just another excuse to go get another beer. That's one of the reasons early cavemen invented beer was to ease the pain of "getting hammered" when they had to ask how to make fire or a wheel.
Newbies, just ask (stoopid or nott)and don't worry about the people who resent the question. You will get so many confusing different opinions that it will keep you busy trying to figure out an answer you can use.
Remember, you have to believe in something.....I believe I'll have another beer for breakfast.


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## karlkuehn (Mar 22, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Dario_
> 
> Please check this thread (specifically my response).
> 
> ...



I'll take a stab at it, Dario.

I think your initial response was not sarcastic or snooty. People who know you and your posting style would know that. However, the other guy is new and doesn't know you yet, and he read your post as such, got his feelings hurt, and then snapped off something harsh to you, and it escalated from there, but I don't think you were out of line to begin with at all.

Maybe a standardized response for these types of questions (since you're going to the trouble of searching anyways) would be something like this

Hi, [whoever]

I don't have time to go into detail at this point [or whatever], but here's some information that might help. I used the search tool in 'standard' mode and searched [string] using [whatever parameters] and came up with this, I hope it helps: [insert URLs]

Same amount of work on our parts, much better feeling for the person asking the question, and ultimately and most importantly, they've got a good place to start looking for answers that they want.

I've been hearing, for months now, references to some weird analogy about 'I can stand on my porch and throw rocks and they don't hit you' thing, and it's still amazing to me that some people might actually think that way about interpersonal communication in a community. That analogy is utterly false, and should be discontinued. Obviously, if it were a true and accurate analogy, Dario's statement in that mentioned thread would never have generated the response that it did from the member who got upset about it.

When we talk with someone online, we're in their home, not a bazillion miles away where no one can hear us spouting off hurtful stuff. People's feelings should be respected as much as if we were face to face. We're not just randomly throwing rocks at a field, we're actively hurting someone. When that happens, at best it's just an honest mistake, and at worst it's an outright crappy attack, neither of which is a desirable behavior. The former is going to happen occasionally, but the latter is unacceptable. Like it or not, we have a responsibility to behave with manners online, and no amount of psuedo-intelligent analogies to the contrary are going to excuse us from that responsibility.

Worse yet, it's not just between a couple of people in private, but it's a conversation that goes into public record for all time, er...at least if you can figure out how to search for it when it drops out of the active topics.


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## MesquiteMan (Mar 22, 2008)

I think that if you don't have time to post a response to someones question then you certainly do not have time to tell them to do a search.  If you can't answer the question then don't post at all.  What does that gain other than to possibly alienate someone?  Let someone else answer the question.


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## tas2181 (Mar 22, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Dario_
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Dario,
I believe that starting the your post with "Do yourself ...." set the tone of your response. Rearranging the same post with your first sentence as the last sentence would have completely changed the way it was interpreted.


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## Scott (Mar 22, 2008)

Hi Everybody!

I have always felt that the "same old questions" from all the newbies should be answered in full, truthfully and helpfully, by whoever feels up to doing so.  The reason for this is because Newbie Questions are only half about finding the answer to the question.  The other half is a test.  They are testing us to see if we are good and helpful people, and deserve their participation.

We are a community of good people here at the IAP!  Give the new member a warm welcome, answer their questions, give them a real reason to belong here.  Anybody can glean data from the website, but I feel those posting as newbies are looking for more than "data".  Make the connection with them by treating them the way you would want to be treated!

And if you are tired of answering the same question over and over, let somebody else do it.  I stopped actively answering the basic question somewhere around the tenth month the site was open.  Besides, our members need to move from the position of asking questions to answering questions if they are to grow, and how can they answer if us old farts are still hogging all the action?   

Then, once you have kindly answered the question asked, offer to teach them how to search the site and find more information on their own.  Teaching is a good thing!

BTW, this topic has come up before, and I have made this response previously - check the archives!!!   [8D]

Scott.


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## Ron in Drums PA (Mar 22, 2008)

> _Originally posted by MesquiteMan_
> 
> I think that if you don't have time to post a response to someones question then you certainly do not have time to tell them to do a search.  If you can't answer the question then don't post at all.  What does that gain other than to possibly alienate someone?  Let someone else answer the question.




Exactly.


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## greenmtnguy (Mar 22, 2008)

Something to consider about that same foolish question being asked again. Someone needs an answer, and it is nice to see a fast response that has the tone- here you are friend, I have the answer. This may be someone's only way to connect to the wealth of knowledge that is stored here. If I don't know what to ask, how can I find it.? Upon joining here as a totally new penturner,shortly after I introduced myself, I was given a phone number and told " call me some time" . I asked a lot of questions I would have had to dig for and irritated someone with my lack of knowledge. Words are extremely powerful in print. Use your power wisely.


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## gcurran (Mar 22, 2008)

I am a newbie - only been here since December and only turning for a little more than that.

What I found to help me was an old-timer that was willing to walk me through the process, share a presentation from the library, and then answer my questions as they arose, often giving me just enough of an answer to let me figure out the details for myself.  I realize that each newbie cant be adopted by an old hat, but the same end result can be accomplished in other manners.  Another thread (a few days ago) was discussing the use of "stickies" in each forum - that would go a long way to answering a newbies questions that pertain to each of the many forums.

A second help would be a series of tutorials in the library that would walk a potential pen turner through all the steps in an increasing manner, i.e, 1) what tools do I need?, 2) how do I drill a blank?, 3) how do I turn the blank?, 4) how do I assemble a pen?  I point this out because I have been talking with a fellow at work who is very interested in getting into turning pens, he has about 35 years of metal machining background, and he was asking me these very questions.  I have looked at all the material in the library and there are some very talented people here in the area of writing tutorials that are easy to read, easy to follow, and are able to get the job done in the end.

The third area which would help a newbie has also been mentioned - start a new forum where it is ok to ask these rudimentary questions.  I am willing to bet that within a month or so, the newbies will be dominating that forum answering the questions for those that are even newer than themselves ( you never really learn the material until you have to teach it ).

I think that I have rambled on for long enough - maybe we can get one or two of these ideas instituted and expand the number of accomplished practitioners.


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## leehljp (Mar 22, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Scott_
> 
> Hi Everybody!
> 
> ...


GREAT suggestion!

Teaching doesn't come naturally to everyone (me) but I can still learn how to be a better teacher!

Carrying this in a different direction - sometimes explanations, techniques, tutorials, manuals and how to's should be held back some - because when everyone becomes dependent on these, imagination, experimentation and creativity ceases! One well known person - lives by this principle and it irritates some people because he won't give the details. He feels it stifles creativity.

In my profession, for all practical purposes, I threw out all manuals, prepared and pre-done lessons and how-to's. Co-workers are somewhat amazed at what has been accomplished and want a manual on what I am doing. It seems that no one knows how to think for themselves anymore. 

Pen making is similar - creativity is increased with the trial and error of new ideas. I will try to do as Jeff has suggested, but I will temper some answers with some direction, some encouragement and "try it yourself and see what you discover."

Part of teaching is getting others to discover new boundaries and then beyond the boundaries. Don't be afraid to fail, once twice three times or more. The joy of discovery, to me, is far more exciting than a step by step manual. And the more I failed, the more exciting it was when I finally accomplished what I wanted to do.


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## Tanner (Mar 22, 2008)

Iâ€™ve used the Search function extensively.  Sometimes it may be a little slow.  Like I donâ€™t have 57 seconds to wait.  Itâ€™s actually been half that this last week.  What I like about the search function is that there are many different ways to skin a cat when it relates to making pens.  I like to read all the different responses and decide which way to go.  Some answers are black and white, however, some have many shades of gray.  If I see 15 pages of answers, Iâ€™ll go through 15 pages.  Iâ€™ll not only get my question answered, Iâ€™ll probably learn something else I didnâ€™t know.  Sometimes the search function will time out, mostly when I hit the Archive box with Match Exact Phrase.  If that happens, Iâ€™ll just shorten the question to one or two words and try again.  I have asked some questions and they have been answered.  In my question Iâ€™ll add that I did a search and found something out, yet I needed some clarification.  That told everyone that I already used the Search function, yet still needed some help.


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## jttheclockman (Mar 22, 2008)

I would like to weigh in on this one because I have seen it in other forms of woodworking. First let me say I am sort of a newbie to the forum but have watched on the sidelines for quite some time. I have asked questions that I know have been answered 1000 times and was even informed of the search feature which I was thankful for. I am sure I will again ask questions that have been answered 1000 times before but I will not shy away from the questions and will be glad to look where someone points me. I think what happens is being turning is becoming more and more popular by the days and pen turning is a great way to get introduced to it you see more newbies coming to a site like this that is promoted by other forums because of the talent that is here. Newbies are just that and you can't expect them to ask deep pen turning or pen casting questions yet. Also lots of times the simple questions are a way to introduce themselves and get their feet in the door. Now you come after them with a curt answer you closed the door on their feet and they become afraid to ask again. As mentioned no matter if you have a bad day or are tired and you feel the urge to be curt with an answer just do not reply and leave it for others. I am a scroller by heart and have been doing it for over 25 years and love it. I got introduced to turning a year ago and love it also but I am learning by every post I read and can't get enough. Now if someone asked me a scroll sawing question, I have heard them all and have just about tried it all but am more than willing to pass some knowledge on no matter how often those questions are asked. So I guess I am saying accept us newbies for what we are and try to help us along so we someday can become as well informed as you all. One other thing this line about just try it just goes so far. Yes experience is a great teacher but when someone asks if it has been done what they are really asking is there a safe way to try it. Remember this is not a cheap hobby. Just my 2 cents worth.


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## RussFairfield (Mar 22, 2008)

To all of those who want more information than they are getting from this forum, or a detailed walk through of all the aspects of making a pen, please visit my website at

www.woodturner-russ.com/Pen10.html

Yeah, it's a Slim-Line pen, and not a fancy Cigar or Baron, but all of the essentials of making a pen are there.


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## PenPal (Mar 22, 2008)

Having travelled in many countries it is most obvious that some innofensive words in my country strike unfamiliar responses in others like your own.I have noticed intolerance and racial predudices exist in many forms all over,an example in Turkey visitors or foreigners pay many times the entry charges to enter Palaces etc.

Since the IAP has a name suggesting International an interchange with us from other countries to you from your countries one very positive outcome recently on another forum was the exchange of a pen with residents in Australia,this immediately sends us to an Atlas search on Google.In fact most times on the IAP site when I am interested I look up the contributer and establish their locality and interests,to more fully appreciate the other person.

To see the number of biblical quotes is heartening,in my family we have members now from other countries that have broadened my outlook in all ways.Encouragement wins the day.

The forum is strongly nationalistic this I applaud also being a proud citizen of my country.

One suggestion would be to show in detail from time to time pics of trees,their timber,locations,pens made from the from various USA States,other Countries and their States.

Viva the difference.  Peter


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## RussFairfield (Mar 22, 2008)

Let me put this into another perspective - that of one of those who has answered a lot of questions over the years that IAP has been here.

You are offended by getting a link when you wanted an answer? Well, I will join you because I am offended by those who expect a detailed answer each and every time the same question is asked, and are complaining when they only get a link to the answer. Many of our answers are long and detailed explanations because there is no other way to answer the question. There is no way that I or anyone else is going to rewrite a message that took over an hour to compose each and every time the question is asked. You are going to have to give us a little slack here, or you aren't going to hear from us at all.


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## constamj (Mar 22, 2008)

As a very new member to this board, I'm truly humbled by the members on this board.  I have asked questions and received answers.  I have posted pictures of pens I have made and the responses have been extremely encouraging.  I have made newbie mistakes and will make more.  My skills have been challenged. My mind has been stretched.  I have made some new friends and discovered that there are a few people that don't deserve the time it would take to respond.  I have used the search tool and found some things and other times found errors.  

To the Old Masters on this board:  Thank you!  The time each of you has spent both practicing your art and freely sharing your skills is something I hope to achieve.  Any direction that you can give is appreciated.

To the Newbie:  Have patience!  This art doesn't just happen.  The fun is not in making a copy.  Learn what you can.  Let the good stuff soak in and shed the bad.  

Of all of the sites I have been involved with in the past, this is one of the most open and sharing group of people I have met.  Letâ€™s keep it that way.


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## wdcav1952 (Mar 22, 2008)

I started to skip this thread, but chose to read all of the posts.  There have been many points made, some good and some not so good, IMHO. 

When I was a kid, and asked how to spell a word, I was more often than not told to look it up in the dictionary.  Yes, it pissed me off, because my immediate thought was how can I look it up if I can't spell it?!?  Still, the search would teach me how to spell the word I needed, and I usually learned a couple of new words as well.

When I suggest that a member use the search function or refer to the library, it is  meant to help, not to punish/discipline the questioner.  In another thread someone mentioned that they wanted to learn the cutting edge, not the past information.  I have read and re-read the information on Russ' site many times in the 5 or so years I have been turning.  Trust me, it is still quite appropriate.

From my perspective, the questions that tend to exasperate me are the ones that seem to want everything there is to know, without any effort from the questioner to learn anything.  Perhaps I am out of touch with current reality, but I honestly feel that I should make some attempt on my own before asking for help.  From my personal experience, I have found people are more willing to share if I have done a bit of research prior to asking questions.


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## loglugger (Mar 22, 2008)

If a person is really wanting to learn, start with the first post ever on the forum and read to the ones that are posted today. Then start with The pen shop and then the turning fourm on Saw mill creek. That is the way that I learnt because I didn't want to type. Ok that is the smart answer, the other answer is just ask the questions and some one will answer it along with some smart answers that people are having fun with, that is part of almost any fourm. Telling someone to search for the answer without telling them where and how is about like telling then that you don't have time for then to go away witch doesn't help anyone. This is just the way I see it.
Bob


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## Ron in Drums PA (Mar 22, 2008)

> _Originally posted by RussFairfield_
> 
> Let me put this into another perspective - that of one of those who has answered a lot of questions over the years that IAP has been here.
> 
> You are offended by getting a link when you wanted an answer? Well, I will join you because I am offended by those who expect a detailed answer each and every time the same question is asked, and are complaining when they only get a link to the answer. Many of our answers are long and detailed explanations because there is no other way to answer the question. There is no way that I or anyone else is going to rewrite a message that took over an hour to compose each and every time the question is asked. You are going to have to give us a little slack here, or you aren't going to hear from us at all.



Good Point Russ
I think this is the part most people who ask questions don't realize.


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## MichaelS (Mar 22, 2008)

Russ and Cav both have valid points. On a personal note, I have been turning pens for over 5 years now, and have been a wood worker all my life. ( God am I that old ). When I first came across IAP I stayed in the background for a long time. When I did finally respond to something I did not introduce myself to the group. I just posted a response. I was reluctant because I have read how some new members whether experienced or new to the ART of pen turning were treated and was unsure if I wanted to stay around. I still on occasion feel that way. 
Most of us started school in the first grade, went to high school, some went to college some to grad school and more. The point is that if our teachers did not answer the same questions over and over again we  would all still be in the first grade. Now having said that, we were also taught how to use the library at school. If a question has been asked many times over don't discourage the student give them the link, point them in the direction. Don't dismiss, you stifle the thirst for knowledge instead of quenching it. As for having a bad day everyone does at some point. Be a person of value as we all I hope are and keep the bad day to yourself.  
just me and i will leave now if you want me to.


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## wdcav1952 (Mar 22, 2008)

> _Originally posted by MichaelS_
> 
> Russ and Cav both have valid points. On a personal note, I have been turning pens for over 5 years now, and have been a wood worker all my life. ( God am I that old ). When I first came across IAP I stayed in the background for a long time. When I did finally respond to something I did not introduce myself to the group. I just posted a response. I was reluctant because I have read how some new members whether experienced or new to the ART of pen turning were treated and was unsure if I wanted to stay around. I still on occasion feel that way.
> Most of us started school in the first grade, went to high school, some went to college some to grad school and more. The point is that if our teachers did not answer the same questions over and over again we  would all still be in the first grade. Now having said that, we were also taught how to use the library at school. If a question has been asked many times over don't discourage the student give them the link, point them in the direction. Don't dismiss, you stifle the thirst for knowledge instead of quenching it. As for having a bad day everyone does at some point. Be a person of value as we all I hope are and keep the bad day to yourself.
> just me and i will leave now if you want me to.



No, hang around.  Anyone who mentions my name in the same sentence with Russ' name is my hero!!


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## LEAP (Mar 22, 2008)

One of my favorite threads on IAP was when Skiprat posted a pen and said tell me how I did it. There were a lot of guesses (I was way off) a couple of which were very interesting. It really made me think about how to approach a project. Some folks want to be spoon fed either from a lack of time or initiative. I feel sorry that they are not getting the most out of the experience. The fun is in the discovery, the search for a new method or technique. Looking through past posts and the photo album has provided me with many hours of enjoyment. My daughters and I will sit together and go over the members albums looking for ideas or new materials to try. That time is priceless. Don't rob youself of the experience. Do a little digging you'll probably enjoy it and you might even find what you were looking for.


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## Dario (Mar 23, 2008)

> _Originally posted by RussFairfield_
> 
> 
> You are offended by getting a link when you wanted an answer? Well, I will join you because I am offended by those who expect a detailed answer each and every time the same question is asked, and are complaining when they only get a link to the answer. Many of our answers are long and detailed explanations because there is no other way to answer the question. There is no way that I or anyone else is going to rewrite a message that took over an hour to compose each and every time the question is asked. You are going to have to give us a little slack here, or you aren't going to hear from us at all.



AMEN.

All we expect is a little slack as Russ said. Especially when we phrase our answer a little off from what you want. 

Though (I believe) my English is acceptable, it is actually my second language.  I can get my thoughts across but sometimes it may sound a bit "rough".  Please know that it is not meant to be, I just don't have the finesse you expect.


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## monkeynutz (Mar 23, 2008)

As a noob, let me say that I am *not* offended by getting a link in response to my questions, simply because that link most probably contains the answer to the question.  However, I do think that it is unfair to assume that I have not already searched for that link myself, because I usually have.  I have found the search functions to be... errrr... *difficult* at times, particularly if I want to go back more than a year.  I appreciate that more experienced members may be better with it than I, and I am thankful when a more specific link is offered.

I also sympathize with advanced users who tire of hearing the same questions over and over, but please try not to take it out on the noob, if the question was put in a civil manner.  *Everybody* was a beginner once.  Condescension is not useful, and if it makes you feel good, then you have greater issues to deal with.  I like the earlier suggested idea of a forum for noob questions.  That way, when a senior member is in the mood to help somebody dumber than he, he can go there and contribute, and when he's not in the mood, he can avoid it with little or no effort.  I can assure you all that I will be more than happy to contribute in that way, once I have enough answers and experience to be useful.

Thanks for indulging me, now and in the future.


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## Poppers-n-Pens (Mar 27, 2008)

> _Originally posted by bettyt44720_
> 
> i agree. i'm mostly afraid to ask questions as a "newbie" myself. as i ponder attending the "mpg" in champaign next saturday i wonder if i would fit in or just be in the "pros" way. considering the cost of fuel and an eight hour drive from northeast ohio.



You would most definitely be welcomed at the MPG!  We have all skill levels represented, but our goal it to make sure EVERYONE leaves learning something they didn't know before they came.  Whether it's a new way to do something, or learning how to do something completely foreign to them.

I hope we'll see you at the MPG, but we can understand the $$ issue for travel.


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## rherrell (Mar 27, 2008)

I'm a stubborn SOB, I guess. I don't think I've ever asked a "how do you" question here. I read just about everything and make ALOT of mistakes. Finding my own way is half the fun FOR ME. I LOVE to go into the shop not knowing how to do something and coming out with an answer. For me the journey is what it's all about...


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## redbulldog (Mar 27, 2008)

I agree with you Rick. When you are reading, the posts, or the library you can learn a lot, 
and not have to ask a lot of questions. My problen is keeping on track and not going off in another 
direction which can happen very easily to me.


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## fafow (Mar 27, 2008)

I've only been making pens (or something resembling them anyway) for a little over 3 months.  I found this website and downloaded a bunch of articles from the library, printed them out and stuck them in a binder.  I have read most of them and refer to some over and over (especially the ones from Russ on finishing pens).  I have also used the search function many times (maybe not as many as I should) and can agree with the one comment about getting a server timeout from time to time.  When I get a response to a post that includes a link I am very thankful for that link and also usually a bit chagrined because I should have been able to find that link myself using the search function and not bothered anyone with the question.  However, more than once, I have gotten additional info that was very helpful and that I never would have asked for.  That is nice.  I also have had comments from people who were just out to have some fun and that is also a blast.  It helped make me feel more comfortable with joining in.  Those types of comments help make this a community.  At times it feels like a few folks are just sittin' around a table at a coffee shop jawin' with each other.  My wife is a woodworker and had told me about how helpful most woodworkers are and when I actually experienced it here and at a show or two, I was absolutely amazed.  I've been told my interpersonal skills are not exactly one of my better traits.  I tend to be blunt and have said many times that there is a reason I work with inanimate objects (I am a computer analyst/consultant). I am very thankful that there are so many people on this site who are more than willing to help.  I have never received a reply giving me a link and berating me for not finding it myself.  Now, if they are not eloquent and gracious in how they direct me to the link, that's fine.  I don't take offense.  The mere fact that they gave me the link showed that they are trying to help and I got some direction.  In fact, I feel better when the link is provided rather then have the person writing the answer all over again, taking up time that didn't need to be used for that.  In at least one case I wasn't sure what keywords to use for a search.  The ones I used resulted in a timeout, so I just asked the question.  I have been absolutely amazed that most times my posts get a reply within an hour.  The responses I get usually go in many directions (as one person said here, there are many ways to skin a cat).  So, thanks to all who have helped me, and my apologies if I have posted anything that was less than gracious.


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