# Logo Use - Mandatory Linkback



## Scott

The IAP Board of Directors voted to require that if the IAP logo is used on a website, that it include a linkback to the IAP Website.  Do you, the members, agree with the requirement of a linkback?  Or are you opposed to a mandatory linkback?


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## Scott

Hi Everybody!

The Board has been working hard to provide the things our members want!  We feel that the IAP logo, being a graphic representation of our organization, needs to be used in a manner that reflects positively on the IAP.  We are an educational organization.  But we do understand that some members market their pens on their websites, and do not wish to linkback to the IAP webpage.

Please take the time to vote in this straw poll.  Let us know what you think!  The options, as I see it are to require the linkback, or to make it optional.  I encourage active discussion on this topic!  But be aware that flaming or derogatory comments will be pulled.  Make this a respectful discussion!

As for my own feelings on this topic, I like the idea of a mandatory linkback!  I think I may have been the one who suggested it!  I feel that the use of our logo by an individual should be according to the rules of the IAP.  It is not open source â€“ we own it!  I also feel that, as an educational organization, a linkback to our site promotes our educational purpose!

Now, what do you think?


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## woodpens

Although I respect the decision as it currently stands to have the link, it would prevent me from displaying it on my website. This is strictly a business decision. My business makes my house payment, and my loyalty must first be to my family. One way to look at the situation is as follows. I prominently display the logo on my site without the link. A pen turner or potential pen turner notices it, and emails me about it. I would then gladly point him in the right direction. This scenario actually happened several times with the Pen Makers Guild logo that is posted on my home page. I can say that one PMG member is now a member because of this. I suspect the IAP logo would produce many more new members as the membership requirements here are not quite so stiff. [] 

I have pen turners ask to join my Pen Gallery about once a week, so I am sure I have many pass through that could take notice of the IAP logo and ask about it. My vote goes to not requiring the link.

Respectfully yours,


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## Gary

I do not like the idea of a mandatory link back, and if it is required I will not use the logo on the web site I'm having designed. In real life, I'm a sales rep representing a host of companies, and I belong to several Trade Associations. Each and every one of them allows me to use their logo on my web site, and none of them requires me to link back to their home page. I think it is a ill-conceived idea for this Association to require a link back. If the requirement to link prevails, I'll just pass on use of the logo and use this forum for what it is...a fine source of information exchange.


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## Andy Ryan

What if a person was to use the "member logo" on their web site? Then would they have to have the mandatory link to IAP?  

They still would be following the rule yet supporting the group. Perhaps what Iâ€™m trying to suggest is an inarticulate compromise.(forgive the spelling)

I follow this web site for the enjoyment. And I did not vote because It dose not matter to me.  But for some it dose.  

P.S.  Well said Gary


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## KKingery

Just a thought.....if a person sees the IAP logo, and they click on it, they come to the home page....right? Well, if they see the logo (without the link), and they do a search on the web for the IAP, would'nt they end up on the homepage anyway? If that's the case, I don't understand what difference it makes? The only difference would be that the person would have to do a few extra steps to end up on the homepage...is my thinking right, or am I missing something?


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## Gary

Ken, the difference is Marketing. If someone finds the IAP on a search that's fine. I don't want them coming to my web site where I sell pens and then have them link from there to my competitors here at IAP (even though they are my friends here).

If I'm looking for UHMW Plastic Stock, I would likely go to DuPont's web site to see their products. I sure as heck won't find a link there to Monsanto.


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## timdaleiden

Can you guess how I feel??[]

  It would be pointless for me to put the LOGO on my site, and have it link back to here. Many posters here have their website address in their sig. I have enough trouble trying to get people to my site in the first place. Pointing potential customers to a large gathering of penturners is counterintuitive. 

  If a penturner stumbles across my site, they may be curious enough about the LOGO to do a Google search on it. 

  If I have to "link it", I will not use it. That does make me sad. Being a lone craftsman is not easy sometimes. Showing that I care enough about my work to become a member of an educational organization is a plus for me, from a sales standpoint. If my work sucks, my website doesn't work, or my prices are way out of line, then it won't help me one bit. 

  On a side note, will there be a version that uses "Proud Member" rather than just "Member"? Also, why didn't anybody ask me to help with the minor alterations that were done on the LOGO? I have had many compliments on my growing skills using PSP.


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## dougle40

This is from someone who doesn't have a web site but would like to add my views on the subject .

While adding a link to the IAP would greatly benefit the IAP it <b>could</b> be a detriment to the web site owner . Case in point -- a viewer goes to the site and sees the link to the IAP and , curiosity being what it is , links up and does find this site ,and what with all the traffic and information generated here , the odds are pretty good that that person will not return to the original site and the owner would have lost a potential customer . I know that I've been guilty of doing just that on several occasions .

As I've said , I don't have a web site as of now but if I decide to start one in the future I personally wouldn't want an actual link (an address would be alright) on my site that would direct a potential customer away from looking further into my site .

Thats just my $0.02 worth and the only reason for voting NO on this poll .


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## Fred in NC

If there is anybody in this group who sells pens, and would put a link to IAP in his/her web site, please speak up!

EDITED:  Other than the president and board members!


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## DCBluesman

I have a website.  I sell pens (not many).  I will abide by the rules.





> _Originally posted by Fred in NC_
> <br />If there is anybody in this group who sells pens, and would put a link to IAP in his/her web site, please speak up!


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## jeff

> _Originally posted by timdaleiden_...Also, why didn't anybody ask me to help with the minor alterations that were done on the LOGO? I have had many compliments on my growing skills using PSP.


Tim,

I'll answer this here because I don't want anyone to think we're excluding you from an opportunity to help us with the logo.

The last time you and I communicated about the logo, you were helping us get the EPS file from your brother.  In my email to you (6/20/2004) requesting this, I explained that we wanted the artwork so that we could make some changes and we did not want to bother your brother for minor alterations.  I even said that I was open to your brother making the changes if he did not want to release the original.

So, you knew we needed to make some changes, and you knew we were open to having someone else do them, but you never mentioned that you were interested or had the tools and skills to do the work.  When your situation changed to where you wanted to help out, a short email to me would have gotten you in the loop long ago.

That said, yes, I would like some help with the logos.  Shoot me an email if want to help and I'll tell you what we currently are wanting to do.

Many Thanks


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## C_Ludwigsen

I have a website.  I have a links page.  I *DO* have a link to IAP on it.  I am also of the opinion it can be optional, since - as many have said, if they want to know what the IAP is, they can Google.

One interesting point is...  If a person sees the logo on your website, I would tend to think they would want to know "what is the IAP".  With no link back, they may consider the logo and say "So!  I don't know what the IAP is."  In otherwords, if you don't want them to know what the IAP is, don't bother with the logo itself.  It would only serve to raise a question you clearly don't want your customers to ask.

Just a thought.


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## Gary

Lou...delete your post, Fred excluded Presidents with conflicts of interest[B)]


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## melogic

I sell pens from my site, I am a proud member of the IAP and I will continue to have the link back on my site no matter what comes out of this. If I have the logo on my site, linked back or not, people can still go to google or wherever and come to the IAP. What is everyone's problem? How many people have lost sales due to this and how many sales are we talking? I think everyone is putting the cart before the horse.


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## Gary

The problem is simple...why direct your competition to a competitor, friend or not?



> _Originally posted by melogic_
> <br />I sell pens from my site, I am a proud member of the IAP and I will continue to have the link back on my site no matter what comes out of this. If I have the logo on my site, linked back or not, people can still go to google or wherever and come to the IAP. What is everyone's problem? How many people have lost sales due to this and how many sales are we talking? I think everyone is putting the cart before the horse.


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## timdaleiden

&gt;&gt;&gt;So, you knew we needed to make some changes, and you knew we were open to having someone else do them, but you never mentioned that you were interested or had the tools and skills to do the work. When your situation changed to where you wanted to help out, a short email to me would have gotten you in the loop long ago.&lt;&lt;&lt;

  Jeff, 

  When we last spoke about the LOGO, you said you had somebody working on it. I was not particularly happy with what my brother sent me as the original files. In PSP, the letters showed up as being skewed. I am not sure if this was the same if opened with an Adobe software application. My brother is a great guy...for a while at least. I wasn't sure if this was a problem with my software, or his sense of humor. 

  I will e-mail.


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## C_Ludwigsen

Okay, this is purely meant to inject a touch of humor to this topic...

I found a company that gladly refers you to their competition - they even tell you how much their competition will charge you...

Progressive Auto Insurance []


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## Gary

First, if you look at my previous posts I've voted NO with regards to the IAP link back. My input now is simply to share with the Board a thought. When you accepted the idea to run as a Board Member, you put yourself in the position of making decsions that affected peoples lives and livelihoods. If you didn't think of that, then woe be to you. Please don't make decisions withought researching them...that's what Board Members are supposed to do. Get the facts then make a decision. Did you do that in this case?


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## Randy_

Seems to me that some folks are missing or ignoring the point, here.  IAP's "job" is to sustain and promote itself as best it can.  It was not created for the purpose of fostering a few pen sellers and enhancing their business.  As I understand it the logo belongs to IAP and they are entitled to use it as they see fit in the best interest of the IAP.   

Anyone who is not comfortable with "rules of use" should simply abstain from using the logo!!


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## RussFairfield

I think there is a misunderstanding of the concept behind the IAP. I would suggest that we go back and read, Article 2 - Mission Statement, of the IAP By-Laws. It uses such words as promotion of pencrafting as a viable art form, education, innovation, finding sources for materials, a place to discuss a common interest, etc. NOWHERE do I see anything about marketing, sales promotion, or advertising.

That doesn't mean that the IAP couldn't evolve into a marketing organization and a sales tool as it matures. But it will take a different Board of Directors, and a major revision of the By-Laws to make that happen. Anyone wanting such change only has to run for a Board position  when the 3 (or is it 4) 1-years terms expire later this year.

Meanwhile, it seems to me that the Board is doing exactly what they are supposed to be doing within the provisions of the By-Laws. I support them in their efforts to hold firm to the Mission of the IAP, and their promotion of the IAP as an organization.


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## woodpens

> _Originally posted by C_Ludwigsen_
> <br />Okay, this is purely meant to inject a touch of humor to this topic...
> 
> I found a company that gladly refers you to their competition - they even tell you how much their competition will charge you...
> 
> Progressive Auto Insurance []


That is EXACTLY why I now have ALFA Insurance. I used to have Progressive, but adding my 16 year old son made leaving Progressive the better option. I appreciated their referral. []


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## woodscavenger

Why not a link to a basic organization information webpage with basics on how much work it take to handcraft a pen.  You don't need to give a link to everybody else selling them.  You don't need to quote prices. But give information about what it takes to do this and do it well. People can access the main pages if they search for them.  I would bet most people looking to buy don't care to read the boards and don't care to look through everybody's profile to find someone new to buy from.


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## Doghouse

How about a third choice.  

Member version does not require a link (only says they are a member)
Penturners.org version must have the link because it is to promote the site not the person.  

That should solve the problem for most people.  In MY opinion.  Feel free to disagree!


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## Old Griz

John, I have no problem with that option.... I would gladly use the Member logo under those circumstances...


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## timdaleiden

Just something to think about. Why were there provisions made for somebody to put the LOGO on their business cards? Why would somebody put the LOGO on their card? I have it on mine, right along with the PMG LOGO.


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## RussFairfield

I am having a hard time understanding the arguments against the linking to the IAP logo. Are you sure you want to go where this is taking you??

If there is a concern that someone is going to find a competing commercial website on the IAP pages, the obvious solution is to eliminate all links to personal websites with commercial content from the IAP pages. My logic is that, if this is an educational forum, why do we allow links to any website whose objective is selling pens?? 

If a link to the IAP webpages is a problem for those who are selling pens, then someone coming here from a Google search could present a bigger problem. I have sold seven (7) fountain pens from inquiries that were made after seeing my photo album here on the IAP site. These were not IAP members.  How did they get here?? Probably a Google search.  Does that make my photo album an advertisement?? Do I owe the IAP a commission? Do I have to close my photo album because it is an advertisement??

I am just following the path where this is going.


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## wayneis

I think that it's a joke if you think that anyone would put the logo on a business card or web site ONLY to promote the IAP.  If someone is going to take up space on a card or web site its because they think that it will help promote their product.  I don't have a web site and if things go right I won't need one but if I did I would not put anyones logo on the site or card.  Thats just inviting your customers to look else where and its telling them where to look.

If I were in the business of selling supplies to individuals that make pens like us then it would make sense to put the logo on my site.  I've learned a lot here and I enjoy helping other with what I've learned.  That is what this site is about, learning, sharing and teaching, it's not a marketing orginazation.

Wayne


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## Gary

The message below I posted last night, and it has been perceived by at least one person as inflammatory. It was certainly not meant to be. I respect our Board members and am thankful for the time they donate to this forum. I wrote the message as a member to his elected representative, and I meant it to be constructive, not inflammatory or critical. I was simply urging each member of the Board to seriously weigh the information at hand and do dilligence before voting on any topic. While reading the message a day later, I see where it could have been worded better. If any of the Board feels it was out of line, then please know that I was not being critical of you or anything you've done. You have a difficult task to say the least.

Earlier post:

_First, if you look at my previous posts I've voted NO with regards to the IAP link back. My input now is simply to share with the Board a thought. When you accepted the idea to run as a Board Member, you put yourself in the position of making decsions that affected peoples lives and livelihoods. If you didn't think of that, then woe be to you. Please don't make decisions withought researching them...that's what Board Members are supposed to do. Get the facts then make a decision. Did you do that in this case?_


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## Scott

Gary,

I was the one who pulled the posts.  If you look carefully you'll see that the post you mention was NOT one that was pulled.  I think you should have the right to question how your Board makes a decision.  And while I agree that maybe it could have been worded better, it raised what I felt were positive issues.

The Board did discuss the issues of rules for Logo use very carefully before voting to implement them.  Did we run a poll?  No!  And we will not poll the membership for every issue.  Whether or not to post THIS poll was not a unanimous vote by the Board.  But I encouraged it because it is possible we missed the issue on the mandatory linkback, and we want to know.

Your Board members are members if the IAP just like you.  When we vote on an issue we are voting as representatives of all the members here.  If I am not representing the membership, I hope I will be voted out!  But not everyone will agree on any issue.  We will not change the way we do things just because a vocal few are against what we do.  But if we begin to see the opposition to our actions become a consensus of the membership, it behooves us to pay attention.

That is why I startd the poll.  That is why I left your earlier post.  But I will not allow any posts that take this discussion in any direction other than constructive and respectful.

I hope this answers your questions and encourages people to speak up on this issue!

Scott.


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## TheHeretic

While I have not voted yet as I am still trying to get an idea from both sides I would tend to agree with Russ.   There are plenty of organizations thorughout the US and world that have logos for member use.  They are used freely on websites with linkback.  I personally doubt if this causes problems for them.

The only one I can think of off the top of my head is the BBB.  Many sites I have been to have the BBB logo and links to the local BBB for the person.  I would seriously doubt that this hinders them as they have just given link to, theoreticly, many competitors. 

AS I have typed this I have come to the conclusion and will go back and vote for the linkback.  This is a professional organization and the use of its logo should be done by its bylaws.  One should have a sense of pride when using it.  When I finally get my website up and running I will use it with pride.   I personally, while not at the level of some of the master pencrafters, am not afraid of some competition.


Dean 
Columbus OH


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## Gary

Scott, I understand. I have no problem with your action. I sent you an email earlier today. It wasn't you that I was referring to when I said at least one person perceived my post as inflamatory. I made this post as an explanation to the Board members and to let them know I wasn't being a jerk.



> _Originally posted by Scott_
> <br />Gary,
> 
> I was the one who pulled the posts.  If you look carefully you'll see that the post you mention was NOT one that was pulled....
> 
> I hope this answers your questions and encourages people to speak up on this issue!
> 
> Scott.


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## Scott

That's cool!  I was going to post most of this stuff anyway, and it just kind of "became" a response to your post.  I'll have to check my E-Mail!   ;-)

Scott


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## Mudder

I believe in a mandatory linkback.

Many places reqiure this for the right to use the logo.

If you don't want to link back to the IAP then you should not be allowed to use the logo.

I also believe that if you will not link back to the IAP you should not put a link to your site in your tagline.



 





> [If I'm looking for UHMW Plastic Stock, I would likely go to DuPont's web site to see their products. I sure as heck won't find a link there to Monsanto.
> Go to Top of Page



This is a forum, I doubt you would find a forum on UHMW plastic that did not include both.

This is my opinion, yours may differ


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## btboone

I have no problem with the link.  I'm not yet serious about offering a lot of pen offerings at reasonable prices on my site.  I'm not ready to mass produce cheaper ones at this point.  I still need to figure out my niche and pricing with better pictures of options, yet not take away from my time spent on other stuff.  When I get to that point, I would promote the pens better, including the link.  

There will always be someone who will make things cheaper.  The challenge for any of us is to appeal to a certain market with products that ring their bell.  The pens can't be like everyone else's, and when they are different and appealing enough, there is no harm in having them learn what else is out there.  The adventurous ones will be searching on the internet and see what's out there anyway.


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## Woodbutcher68

I don't see a problem with a linkback. I don't have a website, but if I did, I'd use it. Somebody who used my site, then linked here might find another penmaker to buy from, but then again, somebody could find my site from his.


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## DCBluesman

Gary--I want to take just a little of this space to offer my formal and public apology for my post directed at you last night.  It was ill-conceived at best and showed a lack of good judgement on my part.  I hope you will consider accepting my apology.  I also apologize to the rest of the membership.  I will more carefully consider each and every one of my posts going forward.


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## Gary

Thanks Lou, that's really classy of you...apology accepted. Let me also say that I shouldn't have fired back at you the way I did either. I could have and should have handled it in a much nicer way. Lets you and I just go on and consider it a nothing more than a heated exchange and no damage done. 



> _Originally posted by DCBluesman_
> <br />Gary--I want to take just a little of this space to offer my formal and public apology for my post directed at you last night.  It was ill-conceived at best and showed a lack of good judgement on my part.  I hope you will consider accepting my apology.  I also apologize to the rest of the membership.  I will more carefully consider each and every one of my posts going forward.


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## wdcav1952

> _Originally posted by Mudder_
> <br />I believe in a mandatory linkback.
> 
> Many places reqiure this for the right to use the logo.
> 
> If you don't want to link back to the IAP then you should not be allowed to use the logo.
> 
> I also believe that if you will not link back to the IAP you should not put a link to your site in your tagline.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [If I'm looking for UHMW Plastic Stock, I would likely go to DuPont's web site to see their products. I sure as heck won't find a link there to Monsanto.
> Go to Top of Page
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is a forum, I doubt you would find a forum on UHMW plastic that did not include both.
> 
> This is my opinion, yours may differ
Click to expand...

Interesting twist on the discussion Mudder.  I don't have a website so I have followed the discussion out of casual interest.  Your point is excellent, though.


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## opfoto

Having just started penturning, and happily finding this forum with no website to post the logo on in the forseeable future... I feel compelled to vote against the mandatory link back. I, as a new member will promote the art, craft of penturning and now the newfound IAP as much as possible thru the various means that I have available. And I have read the other forums regarding this discussion and wish for it to be resolved in a way so that most can agree where it benefits us all as a group and as individuals. Thanks for considering a possible vote. BTW Happy Belated Birthday to the IAP and I especially wish for <u>_<b>MANY, MANY </b>_</u>more.  Marc


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## Daniel

> _Originally posted by Gary_
> <br />First, if you look at my previous posts I've voted NO with regards to the IAP link back. My input now is simply to share with the Board a thought. When you accepted the idea to run as a Board Member, you put yourself in the position of making decsions that affected peoples lives and livelihoods. If you didn't think of that, then woe be to you. Please don't make decisions withought researching them...that's what Board Members are supposed to do. Get the facts then make a decision. Did you do that in this case?


Gary 
Just in case you are missing it. that is just what we are doing. there is no way to know before hand what issues will be "Hot Spots"
I am convinced we are doing just what we should be expected to do. 
or mission statment does not say we are here to support business owners.


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## Daniel

WOW,
 You all are making this tough. speaking as a board memeber. let me inturrupt myslef for a note to Gary. Please do not take my comment above affensivly. it really is intended to shed some light as to why we are conducting this poll. and express a slighltly different view of my concerns as a board member. now back to my overall comments.
as of my last check this poll is split rught down the middle. 30 to 31.
suppose you all can make it just a little tighter  I say that from the prosrective that my commitment is to lead according to the will of the members. this is now the single hardest issue I have seen yet. there have been disagreements. but the will of the group has always come through clear for me. here there is equal pull in both directions.
Jim, your post at the very beggining of this thread really struck a nerve for me. I clearly see your point as a web sight owner I have also thought about this. in my case I have linked to every penturning group I belong to. this does not mean I don't agree with our point. I don't pay my bills with my turning either. 
sadly I do not see the focus of this group is ment to fit the needs of a business owner. I hope a solution can be found for this problem. and appreciate the tone of exceptance you have in your post. not happy but willing to axcept the outcome. your concerns will not weigh lightly for me though. 
Gary, you wrote."In real life, I'm a sales rep representing a host of companies, and I belong to several Trade Associations. Each and every one of them allows me to use their logo on my web site, and none of them requires me to link back to their home page."
this sparked some thinking for me that I will not go into detail here.
If you would could you e-mail me about some of these specifically. sort of on a search for what is common practice here sort of thing. not sure as a sales rep I would be looking at apples compaired to apples. but I am perked up enough to follow this train of thought for a bit.

Chuck. you phrase something I have been thinking as well. Don't raise questions you are not willing to answer I have a leaning toward this myself. for me it is like this. you want the logo. Why? one reason is to lend credability to your craftsmanship??? your support in your knowledge, talent etc. but the logo alone would only leave the very person you are trying to impress the inability to verify if memebrship in this group is anything at all. i would want the link so a customer could see if membership in the I.A.P. amounted to a hill of beans. just one way to look at it but one I tend toward. 

Wayne. you wrote "I think that it's a joke if you think that anyone would put the logo on a business card or web site ONLY to promote the IAP. If someone is going to take up space on a card or web site its because they think that it will help promote their product."
then it is a Joke that I ever put the Logo (with link back) on  my web sight. I put it there many months ago when this group would have been a liability to promoting my pens. there actually are members that have this group at heart. I am one of them.
here is a thought that may be now to you. and may just be making your point in a different way. the rulers of the internet, Google and such, that web sight onwners seem very interested in pleasing, tend to like the internet as an information network. linking toa sight that is primarly information causes them to like you sight better. just some info from my google chasing days. now I just make my sight the way I like it. if that pleases google than so much the better. 
are there tose that want to make themselves look like better penturners by haveing a Logo. maybe. but I think there work will be more convincing than any Logo. and they will have alot more of that on there pages than I.A.P.
in final. I, as a board member am really on the fence here. regardless of my personal choices. thanks all for contibuting. good points are made on both sides. I can't say either side has offered any hard evidence to support there thoughts. this does not mean your thought are not valid though. You all are just splitting this log with a diamond cutter. 
You know you don't have to make us earn our pay. 
keep the comments coming.


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## woodpens

> _Originally posted by Daniel_
> <br />Jim, your post at the very beggining of this thread really struck a nerve for me. I clearly see your point as a web sight owner I have also thought about this. in my case I have linked to every penturning group I belong to. this does not mean I don't agree with our point. I don't pay my bills with my turning either.
> sadly I do not see the focus of this group is ment to fit the needs of a business owner. I hope a solution can be found for this problem. and appreciate the tone of exceptance you have in your post. not happy but willing to axcept the outcome. your concerns will not weigh lightly for me though.


I am not going to get upset at the outcome of this issue either way. I do have a successful website now without the IAP logo. If the current requirement stands, I will have a successful website without the logo next week. Based on the last visitor log report I looked at (July '04 through Nov '04), I received an average of 373 visitors (not page views) per day. None of these visitors saw the IAP logo. Would the IAP Board like for 373 of my visitors to see our logo every day? I guarantee my site will produce quite a few members without a linking requirement. I know this based on the emails I regularly receive from new pen turners who visit my website. I am making a business decision not to post a link on my homepage that "might" result in a customer losing focus of making a purchase. The IAP Board might consider making a business decision that 373 viewings per day from my site alone is better than none. I will most certainly post a link to the IAP website on my links page. That helps the search engine rankings for the IAP and doesn't hurt my business.

Respectfully yours,


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## timdaleiden

&gt;&gt;&gt;o(u)r mission statment does not say we are here to support business owners.&lt;&lt;&lt;

  You know what Daniel, you are right. I can't argue with that. So to be consistent, the LOGO should not be available for Business cards, Craft Show displays, or Websites. 

  I remember a long time ago when I started talking with Scott about a LOGO. I thought it would be a neat thing for members to show off. I thought it would be a great thing to dress up the front page of this Site. I thought we would be giving a gift to all of the people who joined up here. I knew there would be restrictions, as there should be. I didn't that there would be quite so many strings attached. 

  I know that you and the other board members are doing your best to try and sort everything out. I know how much you are getting paid to do this work. I know some of these decisions are not easy. 

  With all of that being said, I hope the board members consider snipping a string or two. I want people to be able to use the LOGO.


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## RussFairfield

You know what?? Jim has the solution.

If our Website is there for selling a product, there should be nothing on that front page to take the potential buyer's focus away from our mission to sell them something. The only link that should be there is one to a pen that is for sale. 

It doesn't matter whether there is a link or not. If the logo is a distraction from the  purpose of the website, it shouldn't be there.

Save the links for the links page.


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## Daniel

Tim,
  thanks for your comment. for me it is a bit of all or nothing. I am not saying all use of the logo for business pourposes should be forbidden. what I am looking for is how the issue of a link back fits into our stated pourpose. in short something has to break the stalemate for me. and I look to the mission stament and By Laws for that. in looking at that. should I as a board member vote to change a rule based upon the impact it has on a penturners Business? I don't see much in the groups pourpose that would require I consider a members business for any reason. this could change in time as the members that have business also have the most at stake.  the primary item I am focusing on now is. how does this rule impact the promotion education and sharing of information. when I look at it that way it is an issue of accessability.
sort of like. How does a link back effect a persons exposure to our craft. this is right at the heart of our pourpose. I also see that the group exists for the members to support it. and that the group will evolve to be what they want it to be. one causes me to lean in favor of the link back. the other away from it again. or at least center on the fence again. this may very well be a case in which we will find out if the Buy Laws do the job they are intended to do.  
you lean toward a compromise type answer at the end of your comment. I'll dwell on that a bit and see if something perks for me.
I am not against your thinking. I am just not convinced your focus is the same as what this group is to be focused on. not convinced there not either. just pondering deeply. the decision is going to be by a hair as it looks to me.


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## Daniel

Jim,
 I defenitly get your reasons. in spades. and I don't get you are upset. In fact I have been a business owner. and I think I understand very well what is behind your decision. for me it is that attitude that friends are friends. and business is business. and you must be able to seperate the two. it is this level headed and responsible chioce making that I see in your comments. and it has a powerful impact on my thinking. refering to my post above. how does the link back effect accessability.
if we eliminate a sight like yours with 300 plus visitors with this requirment. so I am not saying that link back is the best way to gain visitors here. what about the guy that you mentioned that sw your work and wanted to know about how to do it. and is now a guild member? how many others would start turning pens if the could simply click to get here? does the e-mail vs. click really make a difference at all? 
Knowing you as I ahve. you have no problem incouraging your competition and even teaching them. so I see the distinction you are making about putting this fact up front on your place of business. I do not like the idea of "alienating" our most "invested" members in this way. for lack of better words. 
nobody can just wave the majic mouse and make this an easy issue. I am very glad we started this poll though. i had no idea the opinions where so close about this.


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## btboone

Another potential solution: people could put the logo on their site where pens are seen and put a link in a separate location where links are placed.  It doesn't necessarily distract the customer from a sale that way.  He can still find out what the heck that logo stands for, but will have to look a little more to do that.


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## RussFairfield

Daniel,
A couple things that would influence a decision.....

If exposure of the IAP is the mission, then it would be best to allow the Logo to be used without any strings attached to it. Wouldn't it be far better to have the logo displayed with no link, when the only alternative would be no logo at all on these active websites.

Then there is tha matter of enforcement. Once a rule has been made, it has to be enforced.  Otherwise, it is a useless rule. If a link is required on the Logo, is someone going to look at all of the penturning sites on the Internet to see if they are all legal, or if they are even IAP members. Assuming a violation is found, what will be done about it?? A rule that cannot be enforced is a useless rule.


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## melogic

Why play hide and go seek with the logo? If the people you sell your pens to do not have your trust and are willing to purchase a pen from someone else, then let them go. I have had a couple of my customers visit this site and see a few different ideas from some of the other members and then they ask me if I can produce something like this for them. I have gained the trust of my customers. This is not my livlihood, just a money making hobby, but I think this issue is getting blown out of proportion. Use the logo, link back to the IAP. Don't link back to the IAP, don't use the logo. If the logo is diplayed, can't your customers go to the site anyway? What's the difference in this and linking to the IAP?


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## woodpens

> _Originally posted by melogic_
> <br />I have gained the trust of my customers. This is not my livlihood, just a money making hobby, but I think this issue is getting blown out of proportion. Use the logo, link back to the IAP. Don't link back to the IAP, don't use the logo. If the logo is diplayed, can't your customers go to the site anyway? What's the difference in this and linking to the IAP?


Mark,
I respect your opinion. However, you have not studied internet marketing like some of us have. You probably do have the trust of most of the existing customers who have placed orders in the past. I am the same. However, existing customers represent less than a half of a percent of the total traffic on a typical website. The goal of a website store is to get the customer from arrival to purchase in as few clicks as possible. The typical surfer will leave quickly if he has any difficulty finding what he is looking for. We spend endless hours designing and redesigning our sites to make them as simple and user friendly as possible. There are a HUGE amount of potential sales that are right on the edge of making a purchase. Adding one distraction can very well make the difference in many sales. If such a visitor leaves your site, the odds are very slim that he will return. This is a fact. I don't think I am blowing this out of proportion. Like I said before, I will post a logo but not a link on my homepage. If this cannot be done within the rules, I won't post a logo. I fully understand that my business is the least of the IAP Board's concerns. However, I could be an excellent tool for them to attract new members. Why throw away these potential members?


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## melogic

Jim,
I have designed a few sites in the past, probably not as many as most of you. But, if the logo is on your site with the web address on it, can't the person go the the IAP anyway? I understand that they have to make a few more steps, other than that what's the difference? When a link exchange is done, it is just that, a link exchange. If the IAP logo on your site is not linked back to here, then a link to your site should not be allowed on this site.


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## Daniel

> _Originally posted by RussFairfield_
> <br />Daniel,
> A couple things that would influence a decision.....
> 
> If exposure of the IAP is the mission, then it would be best to allow the Logo to be used without any strings attached to it. Wouldn't it be far better to have the logo displayed with no link, when the only alternative would be no logo at all on these active websites.
> 
> Then there is tha matter of enforcement. Once a rule has been made, it has to be enforced.  Otherwise, it is a useless rule. If a link is required on the Logo, is someone going to look at all of the penturning sites on the Internet to see if they are all legal, or if they are even IAP members. Assuming a violation is found, what will be done about it?? A rule that cannot be enforced is a useless rule.



Russ,
 Someday I gotta meet you face to face. You have the most compelling arguments of anyone I know, consistantly. most likely because you are not arguing at all. anyway this is a really strong point. Why have a rule that limits the exposure of our Logo when it is an empty rule in the first place?
One we are purely rellying on the honor of our members to follow the rules. 
but the other half. the why limit the exposure rocked me.
maybe enough.


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## timdaleiden

> _Originally posted by melogic_
> <br />I have designed a few sites in the past, probably not as many as most of you. But, if the logo is on your site with the web address on it, can't the person go the the IAP anyway?



 Lou showed two versions of the LOGO, one has the address, the other only says member. I don't think it was a requirement to use the one with the address on it. If that is required, once again, I would not use it.


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## Daniel

Mark,
 the Logo as we are discussing does not have the web address for penturnes.org.
 in my thinking an outright link exchange is anouther animal. one that is not good for a sight as i understand it.
having links to this sight is in the interest of this group as far as the Net World is concerned. having the Logo Visable is also of interest to this group from a visability prospective. and the nature of human curiosity is no small tendancy either. So I do agree with the they will see and seek theory. I just don't think they will seek in the same number as they would click. this is also validating the "Business owner members" decision to not put a link on there front page. so that leaves. getting at least visitors that are curious enough. or non at all from those "most busy of all" sights.
allowing the members to put links here falls into supporting penturners for me. making changes to rules to meet the needs of "Business" sight is starting to step over a line for me. a fuzzy line hense my wavering and staying on this so much. I will know when I have settled on a decision for myself. and I am not there yet. all the comments are sparking thought though.


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## BogBean

I like Shane's idea of a portal page but I would add a link to the IAP home page from the portal page... 



> _Originally posted by woodscavenger_
> <br />Why not a link to a basic organization information webpage with basics on how much work it take to handcraft a pen.  You don't need to give a link to everybody else selling them.  You don't need to quote prices. But give information about what it takes to do this and do it well. People can access the main pages if they search for them.  I would bet most people looking to buy don't care to read the boards and don't care to look through everybody's profile to find someone new to buy from.


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## woodpens

> _Originally posted by melogic_
> <br />Jim,
> I have designed a few sites in the past, probably not as many as most of you. But, if the logo is on your site with the web address on it, can't the person go the the IAP anyway? I understand that they have to make a few more steps, other than that what's the difference? When a link exchange is done, it is just that, a link exchange. If the IAP logo on your site is not linked back to here, then a link to your site should not be allowed on this site.


I am not talking about building websites, I am talking about studying internet marketing and statistics. As Tim and Daniel noted, the logo we would post is the one that says "Member". We are also not talking about a link exchange. We are talking about legal use of a trade logo. Do you think my website address is in my signature to attract customers from www.penturners.org? It is there so members who have an interest in seeing different people's websites can check mine out as well. If the IAP Board decided that was not appropriate, I would have no problem with that either. I am certainly not trying to get pen sales from this site. 

That being said, I am stepping aside. Everybody knows how we both feel on the topic. For the people with business websites, it is a matter of exposure to the IAP or no exposure to the IAP. If anyone wants to discuss the matter with me offline, feel free to send me an email. I don't want to digress into what may appear as an argument.


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## woodscavenger

Blah blah blah...this feels like an all day root canal.  Can't we just all get along?  I hope you all come to a common agreement without losing any valuable members.


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## RockyHa

Perhaps this is going to seem confrontational but it isn't ment to be.
I don't understand the boards position that a link back from the logo should be required from a web site while the logo on the items sold by IAP cafeepress site doesn't show the URL? It would seem that if the link back is necessary in order to comply with the bylaws, the URL would be incorperated into the logo on the items sold and all hard copy logos.
Rocky


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## wayneis

Some people keep saying that the IAP is only about education so I have a question.  How long do you think that this art or craft will be around if we don't make any money at it?  A person can only make so many pens for nothing, we each only have so many friends and relitives to give them to for free.  I guess what I am getting at is that maybe the IAP should be about furthering our business interests or there won't be a use for the IAP will there?

Wayne


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## wdcav1952

> _Originally posted by woodscavenger_
> <br />Blah blah blah...this feels like an all day root canal.  Can't we just all get along?  I hope you all come to a common agreement without losing any valuable members.



Hey, why the sudden, vicous, unwarranted attack on dentists?!?!  I LIKE doing root canals all day!  You have savaged my morale and must be challenged to a duel.  How do you feel about 1 inch skews at 50 paces?  No fair sharpening with one of those fancy sharpening tools, hand honing only.

BTW, you haven't lived until you have seen some of the spalted molars I see on a daily basis.[]

Yours for better tongue in cheek humor.


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## PenWorks

I hear you Bill []  

I even saw an add for Progressive Auto Insurance in one of these posts, that hurt my feelings [] 

Anthony


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## Old Griz

Mark,
_If the IAP logo on your site is not linked back to here, then a link to your site should not be allowed on this site.[/]
SO in your thinkingis, the members websites should not be in the links area unless we post the IAP logo... Am I correct
I thought the purpose of this group was the support of penturning and therefore the MEMBERS who do it.. as Jim said we don't post our website links here to sell pens to the members.. that would be like trying to sell snow to Eskimos... LOL... we do it to show the other members what we do and hopefully give them some ideas on doing it themselves.. 
Your suggestion would mean not only removing the links from the link area but from our signatures as well..._


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## Mudder

> _Originally posted by Old Griz_
> <br />Mark,
> _If the IAP logo on your site is not linked back to here, then a link to your site should not be allowed on this site.[/]
> SO in your thinkingis, the members websites should not be in the links area unless we post the IAP logo... Am I correct
> I thought the purpose of this group was the support of penturning and therefore the MEMBERS who do it.. as Jim said we don't post our website links here to sell pens to the members.. that would be like trying to sell snow to Eskimos... LOL... we do it to show the other members what we do and hopefully give them some ideas on doing it themselves..
> Your suggestion would mean not only removing the links from the link area but from our signatures as well...
> _


_

Very nice Tom but why link to your site AND  have a photo gallery?
From what I can see, I believe this group is doomed to fail. When I first came here I thought this group was very much like another group that I frequent. It had nice folks who helped each other and contributed to the success of the group. Now I see there are many folks here who want every advantage to slant to their favor. I have seen the officers attacked and maligned. These folks are not paid to do this and I would not blame them at all if they all told us to take a flying leap.

We can give many reasons why we link to our own website but you cannot mask that you hope that someone will look at this site, see your pens, find your link and go to your site and purchase something. I'm not picking on you Tom, your post is the one that illustrates my point the best. I have a site and I sell pens. It is not my primary source of income so maybe I am biased. I do not have any links to my site here and I do not intend to. I have an IAP logo on my homepage and it links back here. As I believe it should be. The way I see it, someone is paying the bills to keep this place here. I am a guest in his or her house and I am not going to spit on their carpet. I view it as a simple choice. Use the logo with the rules that are set fourth or do not use the logo. This whole thread illustrated my point that with all the infighting in such a young group, it will not be long before we self destruct. 

Here's another idea. If you want to use the logo and not link back to the IAP then you should pay a yearly fee to do so. This way the IAP will benefit from the link back, or it will benefit monetarily and help to offset the costs of keeping this site alive.

Of course this is only my lowly opinion, I am probably wrong.



Respectfully,

Scott_


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## wdcav1952

Scott,
You make a valid point in that the tone of the posts and the apparent personal attacks are not conducive to the longevity of this group.  I belong to both this group and the Yahoo group and enjoy both.  Until recently, this group had less potential for tension within the group.

I would like to try a risk/benefit analysis of the situation.

Link Back to IAP

Risk:
Potential loss of customers due to people following the link.
Benefit:
Promotion of the IAP with the intent of increasing awareness of the art of penturning.

Risk:
Loss of harmony within our fraternity.
Benefit:
Introducing others to our fascinating hobby.

Risk:
If requirement is dropped, some may see that shouting and near-flaming is the way to run the IAP.
Benefit:
If requirement is dropped, harmony MAY return to the group.

Risk: 
If requirement is dropped, some Board members may choose to leave their position and perhaps even the group.
Benefit:
Potential financial benefit for those who depend on their website for a significant portion of their income.

Proposed solution:
Rework the IAP logo to include the website address in the logo.  Remove the linkback requirement.  Those with a true interest will seek out the site on their own.
Do not allow modification of the logo.  The logo should be uniform on all sites.  Otherwise it is not a true logo.
Clothing with the present logo should not be changed.  (Eagle, however, should change his boxers occasionally &lt;G&gt  Future merchandise should have the new logo with the web address included.

For what it is worth, please consider my thoughts and add your own, albeit in a non-confrontational manner.


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## Scott

Hi Everybody!

I'm going to end this poll tonight (Friday).  So PLEASE, vote if you haven't already, and post your comments!  The discussion here is helping to form policy!

Scott.


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## woodpens

> _Originally posted by wdcav1952_
> <br />Proposed solution:
> Rework the IAP logo to include the website address in the logo.  Remove the linkback requirement.  Those with a true interest will seek out the site on their own.
> Do not allow modification of the logo.  The logo should be uniform on all sites.  Otherwise it is not a true logo.


That sounds like a reasonable compromise. I do have one difference of opinion, and it is quite non-confrontational. []
I think there should be a logo with each of the skill recognition levels on it. You are authorized to display the logo without the skill level or the one with the skill level you have achieved. That would be something you could proudly display. Just a thought...


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## wdcav1952

Jim,
Excellent point, I did not think of that.


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## Gary

While on the subject of the logo...why is there no Copywrite or Registered Trademark symbol on it at the web page, or on the logo used on the promotional shirts, caps, etc?


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## Daniel

Gary,
at this time the Logo is not registered. just one more of the long list of things that need to be done. some issues as to why these things arenot yet done.
Funds. regardless of what we would like to get done. many of them require money. and cash seems to not be as abundant as opinions and suggestions.

time. although many are spending far more time working for this group than is sane. it is making only so much of an impact on the list of wants, needs and desires. I have a little guideline when I see a suggestion. when the person that suggested it thinks it a good enough idea to actually start doing something about it. I will fall in behind them. it is far to easy to set on the sidelines and think it should be this way or that. or this should be done or that should be done. 

experience. some things fall through the cracks simply because this is our first time though them. having all the answers before hand is impossible.


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## Gary

Thanks Daniel...I had just now noticed it and was curious.


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## woodscavenger

I like the web address in the logo.  If people want to they can find it.  I also like the skill level idea.  By the way, what are the levels and how do I qualify for the bumbling woodworker level?


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## sptfr43

hello everyone. I have only watched and learned since joining this wonderful site. it seems this whole logo thing is getting to be quite the hot topic.the questions I have are how long has the iap been around? and during that time has there always been a logo? If so why the sudden interest or need to have a link back? I found this site because I was curious having seen it mentioned on another site several times. all without a link. are people really that lazy that they won't take the extra steps to type in an address? and if they are how much ambition are they going to have to actually go out and take the knowledge they gain here and put it to use? It all just seems like overkill to debate and stress about something that in reality probably isn't going to change the way we all live and breath. having said that I want to thank all of you for sharing your knowledge so freely. My skills have improved greatly because of it.  

Randy


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## patrick_1853

I would like to bring up the results of a previous poll.  
http://www.penturners.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=66&results=1
The results of this poll show that out of 100 people who replied, only two made sales through the website.  Another big thing brought up in that poll topic was that most people don't use their website to sell pens but to basically use it as a larger brochure.  
Now, I don't have a website so this is really a non-issue for me, and honestly  wish I could retract my vote and stay out of it. 

Now, with exceptions of course, isn't selling pens more of a hands on activity.  If your like me a picture of my pens, even one that was proffesionally taken wouldn't show the true beauty of the wood.  It also wouldn't tell a customer if a given pen really fit their hand as well as another.  

Basically, is a link on your website really gonna be that big of a deal either way? 

Patrick


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## Gary

Can we just put this Logo-Link-Back to rest and be done with it?


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## Daniel

Randy,
 Just a litle bit to catch you up to speed. this sight just celebrated it's first birthday. the Logo has been around from the beginning. But you coudl consider the I.A.P. beginning as back in november with the election of our first president. 
 the Logo was not "officialy" released for use until just a few days ago. with guidlines decided on by the Board. this is what all the hu bub is about. some. or more specifically one of the guidlines are not setting well for some members. and this is pretty much split down the middle.
 as for dropping the issue. well I guess we could and that way we could just ignore one of the biggest issues going for the group. that is demonstrating responsible leadership. of course it would leave time to focus on other popular items like the development of pen comparison information that as far as I can tell nobody is showing much interest in. 
I have anouther idea. how about just accepting that this is an issue that alot of people are motivated to speak up about. and just might warrant a complete conversation.
I know that it has brought some new thoughts up for me about just what is behind the big concern.
Sure I know it gets old , confusing, tiring, and confrontational. so why bother.


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