# not my vise



## Paul in OKC (Aug 16, 2011)

Any body seen this?

http://cgi.ebay.com/Self-Centering-...968?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35b4742fc0

Just talked to this guy (he called me). Asked if he would be stepping on my toes to produce and sell them. They say copying is a great form of flattery. Maybe true, but still........Oh well. I am still making them, and will be sending off to the anodizer this week and will have many available shortly (see the classified section for the current post).


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## bobjackson (Aug 16, 2011)

Paul
Yours is the best. I've used one for years and still love it. Thanks man.


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## greggas (Aug 16, 2011)

Paul;

Did you ever consider applying for a patent ?


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## Paul in OKC (Aug 16, 2011)

Thought about it when I first designed and started building them. The cost and wait time is really unreasonable, for me. I have made this design for over 5 years now. It's a big free country, but to try to make a buck off some one elses design work bothers me a bit.
 Kind of like the carbide tool thing. 
 The guy did say he might have a bargain on material soon, though!  Nice to talk with him, but if you were copying something, would you call the guy and ask about it?!?


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## MesquiteMan (Aug 16, 2011)

To late for a patent now.  After it has been sold for 1 year, it is no longer patentable.  I have been there and done this and no, it does not feel good to have others trying to make an easy buck off of the time you spent developing and doing all the leg work to come up with something unique.


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## seamus7227 (Aug 16, 2011)

Paul in OKC said:


> Thought about it when I first designed and started building them. The cost and wait time is really unreasonable, for me. I have made this design for over 5 years now. It's a big free country, but to try to make a buck off some one elses design work bothers me a bit.
> Kind of like the carbide tool thing.
> The guy did say he might have a bargain on material soon, though! Nice to talk with him, but if you were copying something, would you call the guy and ask about it?!?


 
Some people have no respect or courtesy. The fact remains that yours are made with exacting standards and you have a great reputation! People are going to replicate the marvelous things we create, but as creators of great work, they will never truly be duplicated, except by us(the creator)!!


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## Whaler (Aug 16, 2011)

Paul, Your's is the best don't know why I waited so long to buy one.


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## jaywood1207 (Aug 16, 2011)

You may not be able to stop him but in my mind he is trying to use your design and good name to make a buck.  If he wants to make a vise he could have at least changed it slightly so it doesn't look exactly like yours.  This is not cool.


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## ghostrider (Aug 16, 2011)

Paul in OKC said:


> Thought about it when I first designed and started building them. The cost and wait time is really unreasonable, for me.


  I can understand that completely. A few years ago I managed to design/invent something with the help of a friend. Since most of my work along that sort of line was at the time somewhat popular, talk about it's sale once people knew about it was unavoidable.  After doing a little research (as well as talking to a prominent knife maker/designer) I realized that it was more than I could financially bear. During that research, I did manage to find a quote attributed to well known knife maker Ed Schempp. It basically stated that since patents and copy writes only work where the courts support them (China doesn't care), the best way to protect your intellectual property is to provide a better product than your imitators. 





Paul in OKC said:


> I have made this design for over 5 years now. It's a big free country, but to try to make a buck off some one else's design work bothers me a bit.
> 
> Kind of like the carbide tool thing.
> The guy did say he might have a bargain on material soon, though!  Nice to talk with him, but if you were copying something, would you call the guy and ask about it?!?


 In a way I get it, and in a way I (like You) don't get it. I  once got an order from a customer who wanted me to make him a lanyard in  a certain way, and sent me a picture of another lanyard makers work to  show me what he wanted. I had traded/corresponded/shared with this other  lanyard maker, so I knew that he was somewhat protective of the concept  in question.  Upon receiving the request from my customer, I first  recommended he go the the originator of the concept, telling him that  the guy was good people to work with. When the customer insisted that he  only wanted to deal with me, I then informed him that I would first  have to check with the originator.  

Fast forward a couple years. I'm looking on a "show us your lanyards  thread" that had a lot of my work posted on. And see a piece of word (by  someone else) that was an exact copy of a design that I had  developed.It was a very unique design for someone in the field, and no  one had acknowledged doing anything like it before. Yet, here was this  guy who wasn't even around when I started making them, and he was  showing off my design as if he had come up with the idea. (even the  customer who helped me with the concept commented by saying " He posts  it like, "Look what I've invented".) When I politely pointed out that it  looked familiar (by referencing an earlier post in the exact same  thread that he was posting in), he merely stated that he had not seen my  work, and came up with the idea on his own. Mind you, I the ONLY person  that I'd seen doing this sort of thing, and I was pretty involved in  that community enough to know that there probably was little chance of  anyone else doing it. 

When someone asked me how to do it on a different forum (that I had not  frequented for about a year) someone even  commented that the concept  was just a combination of other things that others had been doing, just  in a different way. Yet, at least this guy had the decency in his  request to say that he would understand if I had wanted to keep it a,  "intellectual secret". I have a feeling that the reason no one else copied it was because they all saw it as my property, and as such  didn't want to "step on my toes". 

 Also, some people just have a little more pride than to use someone else work. Imitation is one thing. When Crabcreekind showed off his new castings, it was obvious that he was trying to emulate someone who he admired, rather than steel his ideas. 



Seeing someone else work, and copying it just to turn a profit can often give back what is put in. 


It's quite possible that he came up with this product independently of any knowledge of Paul's product. It wouldn't be unheard of for him to market it, and then have someone else point out that it's a copy of Paul's. If that happened, I can understand why he would have made the call. However, I would wonder why he didn't know about something that unique being in existence.


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## SLICKYINC (Aug 16, 2011)

Do we not copy each others pens, stoppers, and everything else for that matter? If you dont have a patent on something, then people are going to copy it and charge less for it. Might not be the right thing to do, but its gonna happen. On top of that, people from here are going to buy it now since you posted the link to it.


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## Paul in OKC (Aug 16, 2011)

Can't stop any body from buying it, wouldn't try. It's just the thought of it all. Once again, all I can say is I know what mine is, and how it is made. If this guy is a machinist and can make a good copy, well.........might just be time for my next great invention to hit the market! =8^)


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## edman2 (Aug 16, 2011)

"well.........might just be time for my next great invention to hit the market! =8^)"                                                                                                __________________

OK put me down for one. I don't know what it is but I want to be first on the list!  :biggrin:


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## bitshird (Aug 16, 2011)

Paul, at least they didn't try and use your name. I had that happen a few months ago with the Pen Pro, but got it settled quick enough..


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## sbell111 (Aug 16, 2011)

Paul in OKC said:


> Nice to talk with him, but if you were copying something, would you call the guy and ask about it?!?


Per your original post, you stated that he called you and asked if "he would be stepping on your toes to produce and sell them".

Given that you DO apparently have a problem with his selling them (assuming that you didn't start this thread to advert his product), what did he say when you told him not to sell them and threatened legal action if he did?


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## Greg O'Sherwood (Aug 16, 2011)

Geez, Paul. You should have given him a few verbal jimmy-kicks.

I've been using your vise for a couple years, IIRC, and you should be the only one profiting from your design. It's perfect, durable and precise.

If you want, we could cast this guys feet in a dense substance and see if it floats, ifyouknowwhatimean...

.


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## Haynie (Aug 16, 2011)

You have a good attitude about it.  I have seen people have fits when someone took their design and used it.  If the new product inproved it any they threw a bigger fit.  I admire your reaction.  Shows a lot of character.


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## MesquiteMan (Aug 16, 2011)

sbell111 said:


> Paul in OKC said:
> 
> 
> > Nice to talk with him, but if you were copying something, would you call the guy and ask about it?!?
> ...



Threaten legal action?  And make a complete fool of himself?  Unfortunately, he has no legal action he can threaten.  He choose, like many of us, to not spend an exorbitant amount of money on a patent, he therefore has no legal protection.


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## Fred (Aug 16, 2011)

If anyone wants too they can order from this 'copycat', as for me I believe in supporting the members of IAP first, so I will not order from this individual. I looked over the 'copycats' profile in eBay and noticed that the only negative feedback was concerning a Coach handbag ... is this 'copycat' person a man or woman? It doesn't make any difference, but I was wondering...!


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## dogcatcher (Aug 16, 2011)

Just be thankful the design was not sent to China and came back mass produced for next to nothing and sold for a give away price.


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## bruce119 (Aug 16, 2011)

Paul I feel your pain. This seems like déjà vu.

You come up with a good idea share it and the big companies come along and copy it. But in this case seems like a small time machine guy did it. 

I think I will ask some questions as an interested buyer. Legit questions like what manufacture is it, or did you machine yourself what type of warranty how many are available. We'll see what he says.

Paul yours is the best I put your through the ringer 100's if not 1000's and still tight and accurate as day one.

Bruce


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## Paul in OKC (Aug 16, 2011)

Thanks for all the comments and support. The guy's ebay stuff is quite varied, and looking through his feedback, there has only been one vise sold. He told me he was trying to get it into Woodcraft. They said they needed 200, so he ordered material to make them, and then they turned down the idea.   I did find out some time ago that an individual had apparently sent one to China and had some made, but they didn't sell well, or at all because of how poorly they were made.  Like I said, I'll keep plugging along with mine. Like Curtis said, no sense wasting $$ and time and energy chasing something like this, so.......


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## sbell111 (Aug 16, 2011)

MesquiteMan said:


> sbell111 said:
> 
> 
> > Per your original post, you stated that he called you and asked if "he would be stepping on your toes to produce and sell them".
> ...


There is a notable difference between threatening legal action and taking legal actio.

Either way, my point is that this guy called Paul and asked permission.  At that point, was he told not to go forward?


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## MesquiteMan (Aug 17, 2011)

sbell111 said:


> MesquiteMan said:
> 
> 
> > sbell111 said:
> ...



Threatening legal action when there is no basis is plain foolish, IMO.  Happens way too much in society.


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## sbell111 (Aug 17, 2011)

MesquiteMan said:


> sbell111 said:
> 
> 
> > MesquiteMan said:
> ...


Whether or not a legal claim has basis is a question for a court of law, not a couple guys on an internet forum.

Regardless, in the situation given in this thread, it is certainly possible that the guy asking permission wouldn't know with any certainty if there was a legal basis to the threat, or not.  As such, it may have been enough to stop him from going forward with his plans and nip this thread's angst in the bud.


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## louie68 (Aug 17, 2011)

Not sure this guy really makes these vises, it looks more like something from Woodcraft or PSI. My .02 cents


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## workinforwood (Aug 17, 2011)

Lets look at it a different way Paul. This is an opportunity to improve what you already have! Perhaps you could ask people what they like and don't like about your vise, so you can capitalize on what is liked and improve on what is not liked. The Hoffman2 vice would then be eligible for a patent!  I really like your vice, but like anything, nothing is perfect, especially in the eyes of the beholder.  I really like the machining and strength of the vise and the finish on the vise..you know I beat on mine with a hammer and have taken a torch to it, and it always looked good afterwards, so that's certainly a good testament!  I do not like how the jaws are off to the side. I would be okay with that though if the base itself was wider. Of course a vise is supposed to be clamped down, but some people do not do so because they are using the drill press for multiple tasks constantly, and time is money, so you just toss the vise on the table and hold on to it and drill, but since the jaws are off to the side, the vise wants to fall over on it's side when drilling without a hold down device. Maybe some others agree, or maybe i'm on my own...either way, just trying to see a brighter side to it all.


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## edicehouse (Aug 17, 2011)

To just play devil's advocate. . .  If someone was going to give you $20 to come over and put a couple pieces of PVC on the side of their lathe table, would you?  There are actual holders that are invented and made.


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## bruce119 (Aug 17, 2011)

I asked

*Dear hutson24,*
Hi I have a few questions 
What manufacture is it does it have a name or did you machine it yourself. I never saw one like this just one similar. Is there a warranty. I mite be interested in a few like maybe 10 if after the first the quality is good.
Thanks 
*- bruce119*

and he replied

*Dear bruce119,*
These are made in Usa bought at auction we have maybe 3 left thats all i know about them hope this helps thanks.
*- hutson24*

I was approaching as a retailer mite. But then again there's a VERY GOOD chance he is aware of this thread and tip toeing sort of speak.

I am bailing out now I know all too well how this thread could volcano as I remember it being called.

Paul you don't have anything to worry about. Just let this blow by and don't let it take the air out of your sail.


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## bnoles (Aug 17, 2011)

workinforwood said:


> Lets look at it a different way Paul. This is an opportunity to improve what you already have! Perhaps you could ask people what they like and don't like about your vise, so you can capitalize on what is liked and improve on what is not liked. The Hoffman2 vice would then be eligible for a patent!  I really like your vice, but like anything, nothing is perfect, especially in the eyes of the beholder.  I really like the machining and strength of the vise and the finish on the vise..you know I beat on mine with a hammer and have taken a torch to it, and it always looked good afterwards, so that's certainly a good testament!  I do not like how the jaws are off to the side. I would be okay with that though if the base itself was wider. Of course a vise is supposed to be clamped down, but some people do not do so because they are using the drill press for multiple tasks constantly, and time is money, so you just toss the vise on the table and hold on to it and drill, but since the jaws are off to the side, the vise wants to fall over on it's side when drilling without a hold down device. Maybe some others agree, or maybe i'm on my own...either way, just trying to see a brighter side to it all.



I would just like to see Paul's supply meet demand.  If this could come about, I doubt there would be any room for competition :biggrin:


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## Paul in OKC (Aug 17, 2011)

]I would just like to see Paul's supply meet demand.  If this could come about, I doubt there would be any room for competition :biggrin:[/QUOTE]

That should happen very soon! I am taking a good batch of parts to the anodizer on Friday. so in a week or two, I should be very busy assembling and stocking!
I have pretty much blown this off.


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## sbell111 (Aug 18, 2011)

You still haven't told us how you replied when he asked if you minded if he sold them.


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