# Ron Brown stole the Joyner Off Center Jig design and is selling as his



## rsx1974

This is unacceptable!!

Ron Brown of Peachtree Woodworking Supply has STOLEN another artist’s tool that was designed about 6 years ago and is now selling as his. He didn’t change anything!!! Not even the color.

He did change the name from “Joyner Off Center Jig” to “Ron Brown’s Best Off Center Chuck System”.  But that is it!!!  

Richard designed the tool, manufactures it here in the US and has taken input and feedback from all of us over the years and has continuously improved it.  He established a relationship with Ruth Niles, and if you do anything with bottle stoppers you know Ruth. She has been offering his jig since the beginning and still does… Joyner Pendant Plates 

A quick search and you can find several articles and pictures of great things people have done with the Joyner Jig.  This article is from 2010. http://familywoodworking.org/forums/oversize_attachments/Pendant Turning Tutorial.PDF 

About 8 years ago I found IAP, the ideas, the people and the true artists I met here and shared with are amazing people with unbelievable talent.  It is disgusting and unacceptable what Ron Brown has done to simply make a buck.  I can tell you right now that under no circumstance will I ever buy ANYTHING from Peachtree ever again.

We turn because we love to do it, there is something inside us wired this way, it is a precious gift, and we share it, give it away, and would teach someone else what we do without blinking an eye.  I believe Ron Brown just does not get it, and is NOT a retailer that adds anything to our hobby/love.

Sorry for my rant, but I have owned one of Richard Joyner’s jigs from over 6 years ago and was deeply saddened for all artists when I found this…  Lathe Accessories - Chucks 

Please take a moment and seriously ask yourself if Ron Brown from Peachtree is adding to our hobby or destroying it?

Thanks for taking time to read this.


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## duncsuss

If he did indeed steal it, then I agree -- unacceptable.

Did you contact Richard Joyner or Ruth Niles to ask if they were aware of this? (It is possible that he/she/they made an agreement with Ron Brown for him to sell these things "under license".)


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## rsx1974

I spoke with both Richard and Ruth tonight before posting this...

Not under license...


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## edstreet

Great,  another vendor with sleezy unethical business practices.  I hate to see stuff like this happen.


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## alphageek

Fortunately we have a good selection of vendors here at IAP.   Even Ruth and Richard, (who don't post often) are here - they both have answered questions about their products and are very proud of what they do.  

Its a shame that yet another small vendor gets their idea taken (there are many others here..).   Its especially a shame when its something like this that was completely original and made in the USA.   If you search for pendant plate here on IAP you'll find many threads that mention it and it was always the "Joyner" plate.  

Moral of the story is support the vendors here, they have proven their worth.   Everyone has their favorites but all of them started small and many of them started out of serving JUST here!   I remember the days long before turntex was a website and to order from exotics you had to get a spreadsheet emailed to you!


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## ed4copies

Wow, Dean you ARE an OLD member!!


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## NittanyLion

I'm quite surprised that Joyner doesn't have a patent on this.  Even without, on the surface, it sure looks like a dirty move. I'm Hoping there is more to the story and folks wouldn't actually do something like this.


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## alphageek

NittanyLion said:


> I'm quite surprised that Joyner doesn't have a patent on this.  Even without, on the surface, it sure looks like a dirty move. I'm Hoping there is more to the story and folks wouldn't actually do something like this.



Unfortunately patents are a bit much for "the little guy"... Even the DIY route would probably have killed every bit of profit I imagine he would have had for this small market.... http://patentfile.org/howmuchdoesitcosttopatentanidea/


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## guylaizure

Peachtree has ripped off many things.They see a product and then get it manufactured in China where cost are low.Defending copyrights,trademarks and patents is costly.The legal firms require tens of thousands of dollars as a retainer before they will even take the case.


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## Old Codger

VERY Sorry to hear this!  I've had one of Ruth Niles/Richard's off center jigs for a couple of years and couldn't be more pleased...  I totally agree that the patent process is NOT designed for the amateur inventor and more designed for 'big business'...sooo much paper work, procedures to follow, and cost!  The original patent process was much simpler and designed to protect inventors and not 'copy cats', but I guess like many other things these days, big business has taken over the process by 'buying' their buddies in congress...  :>(  Hope everyone will refuse to purchase the stolen jig and take their business elsewhere!  Safe turning to all!


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## mark james

Patents are expensive; sometimes prohibitive...

This is sadly done all too often, and simply because they "could do it."  

Just because you "can do it," does not mean you "should do it."

I support using our "purchasing power" to creditable vendors, and those associated with IAP.


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## SteveG

I appreciate this thread. I know who to avoid, and can pass that info along whenever there is an opportunity. At least we (collectively IAP) can stand for what is right, and thin out some of the profits from one who appears to lack integrity and decency.

And oh, BTW, may the bird of paradise fly up Mr Ron Brown's nose, and then take a big POOP!!


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## duncsuss

rsx1974 said:


> I spoke with both Richard and Ruth tonight before posting this...
> 
> Not under license...



That's good enough for me.

I have bought stuff from Peachtree in the past -- but no more.

Thank you for publicizing this.


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## OKLAHOMAN

Some here might remember when Paul Huffmans pen vise was blantely copied by a guy named Tim Geist. As far as I know you wouldn't find his vises for sale now. Just shows you the strength of you folks here at IAP , you knew who brought it to us and supported Paul now let's all support Richard.
Richard one way to look at it is imitation is the highest form of flattery, won't help your bottom line now but in the long run it will and hurt theirs.


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## Charlie_W

I enjoy the Joyner jig I have. It is a fine product!

I would really like to hear Ron Brown's explanation of this issue before forming an opinion.


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## Holz Mechaniker

*Devils Advocate*

WHO took the idea?  Ron Brown or Peachtree?  Saying that Ron Brown Stole it can get you RSX a big old school Libel law suit.  Just because there is a Label "Ron Brown's Best" doesn't mean he Stole anything. All Peachtree can say is that it was a Graphics error.  If you go to Ron's Site it is not listed. 
So I would say that it might be a wise idea for Jeff to remove this thread.  Because,  You RSX, IAP and Jeff can get sued.  Doesn't matter if they don't have an open and shut case. Jeff will have to get a lawyer just to protect himself.  

Yet, it is a bit strange that the pictures from Ruth's site is perhaps being used on Peachtree....


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## TonyL

I met Ron aND know the folks at Peachtree    my experience with both has been very good, as my experience with Ruth  I would have to see guilt be proven in a court of law or the evidence to be so compelling that it would be a blantant "crime" to practicaly a child     then my conscience would guide where my money is spent     I really hope the accusations are false and it was all a misunderstanding   I am not saYing that the op has been frivolous  or irresponsible.  I am just saying what I am going to do  just
As others  with very good intenations have expressed their intentions      much peace and a safe holiday to AlL   thanks again to all that have served or stI'll serve to protect our country and our streets  typing this on my wifes tablet and really struggling  lol


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## edstreet

Holz Mechaniker said:


> WHO took the idea?  Ron Brown or Peachtree?  Saying that Ron Brown Stole it can get you RSX a big old school Libel law suit.  Just because there is a Label "Ron Brown's Best" doesn't mean he Stole anything. All Peachtree can say is that it was a Graphics error.  If you go to Ron's Site it is not listed.
> So I would say that it might be a wise idea for Jeff to remove this thread.  Because,  You RSX, IAP and Jeff can get sued.  Doesn't matter if they don't have an open and shut case. Jeff will have to get a lawyer just to protect himself.
> 
> Yet, it is a bit strange that the pictures from Ruth's site is perhaps being used on Peachtree....




Incorrect.  Jeff is well protected in this matter.  There is nothing they can hit him with that would be of any value.  Esp after a recent SCOTUS ruling this past month that route is quite clear.  Elonis v. United States.

I would also like to point out and make note of the long history and usage of the 'cheer and jeer' section.

Unfortunately we do not have a good selection of vendors on this forum, as many have been drove off by various means (beyond the scope of this thread mind you) but this does make me wonder. .... is Ron Brown of Peachtree Woodworking Supply a member here?


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## thrustmonkey

In case you haven't been watching the news lately, most of the members of SCOTUS have gone crazy.

Ross


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## CREID

edstreet said:


> Holz Mechaniker said:
> 
> 
> 
> WHO took the idea?  Ron Brown or Peachtree?  Saying that Ron Brown Stole it can get you RSX a big old school Libel law suit.  Just because there is a Label "Ron Brown's Best" doesn't mean he Stole anything. All Peachtree can say is that it was a Graphics error.  If you go to Ron's Site it is not listed.
> So I would say that it might be a wise idea for Jeff to remove this thread.  Because,  You RSX, IAP and Jeff can get sued.  Doesn't matter if they don't have an open and shut case. Jeff will have to get a lawyer just to protect himself.
> 
> Yet, it is a bit strange that the pictures from Ruth's site is perhaps being used on Peachtree....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Incorrect.  Jeff is well protected in this matter.  There is nothing they can hit him with that would be of any value.  Esp after a recent SCOTUS ruling this past month that route is quite clear.  Elonis v. United States.
> 
> I would also like to point out and make note of the long history and usage of the 'cheer and jeer' section.
> 
> Unfortunately we do not have a good selection of vendors on this forum, as many have been drove off by various means (beyond the scope of this thread mind you) but this does make me wonder. .... is Ron Brown of Peachtree Woodworking Supply a member here?
Click to expand...

 Are you sure you meant Elonis v. United States?
This was about threats made to an estranged wife, coworkers, a kindergarten class, state and federal law enforcement officers in Facebook
posts using rap lyrics under a fake name.
You can read it on the Supreme Courts web page.


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## Coolhammerman

You are incorrect Mr. John T Charlier!

It is my policy to never "Copy" another product. If I can improve it, modify it to correct a serious deficiency or add features which significantly improve an item and it is not Patented, Copyrighted, Trademarked, etc. and if I think there is enough market demand, there is a possibility I will do something with that item. To copy something outright is unethical, to modify it and improve it so it is a better value for the customer is business.

There are always two sides to every story.  You have seen fit to lecture me, make harsh accusations and issue judgments having heard only one side of the story.  Since you think so little of me I wonder if you would care to get your facts straight before impugning my character further.

The folks at Peachtree Woodworking Supply placed in order for 50 Joyner jigs with Ruth.  We planned to sell Ruth Niles Joyner pendant jigs at all of the woodworking shows around the country.  90 days went by and we still had not received the product.  Several phone calls later still no product and no prospect of getting any product.  Did Ruth not wish to sell to us?  Did she not have the capacity to supply Joyner jigs and the quantity we needed?  Did she not want the retail competition?  In any event, after more than six months and having missed an entire show season it was clear that Ruth would not be supplying us with the Joyner pendant jig.

The folks at Peachtree, my largest dealer, asked me to design a safer more professional looking less expensive more functional off-center turning jig.  Our research revealed that Ruth or Mr. Joyner did not care enough about their design to apply for a patent, copyright, or trademark so I designed a much better unit. The basic technology is the same but there are significant and important design changes which make my jig safer and easier to use, more professional looking and a much better value.  The most significant change among several was the inclusion of a drawbar system 50% larger and 100% stronger than the optional drawbar Ruth offers.  I purchased, at full price, a Joiner jig for my personal use from Ruth at one of the symposiums.  With no drawbar Ruth's jig constantly loosened from the headstock spindle, especially when I used it in the offset mode.  This amounted to a huge and dangerous design flaw which I corrected.  My jig although similar appearing is also shot blasted giving the entire unit a much more professionally finished satin look.  All sharp edges are removed so that when the numerals are engraved rather than stamped they appear much more crisp and easier to read with no sharp edges to cut you when bumped inadvertantly.

Ruth's failure to respond for whatever reason forced us to manufacture our own product.  *It was not our first choice*. There is some small degree of overlap at the Woodturning symposiums where both Ruth and I are vendors.  My real market is the woodworking show circuit, a circuit Ruth totally neglects.  How can she purport to serve the turning world when she neglects nearly 100,000 customers a year?

I am pretty sure that Ruth will deny all of this as she did when she slandered me in a very loud shrill voice and called me a "son of a bitch" before a crowd of AAW attendees this past Friday.  However, the facts are the facts.  I can only conclude that Ruth Niles is struggling to separate fact from fiction. In the future I suggest you hear both sides of the story before making untrue accusations and defaming someone's good character. No one bothered to contact me before posting this hearsay bogus information. This is my only response.

Ron Brown


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## edstreet

Wow,  so we have malicious intent, we have holding the designer hostage to a 3rd party decision, we have a copy that is well above the 80% level, possibly in the 95+% bracket.

That is well beyond the unprofessional and unethical borders.


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## edstreet

CREID said:


> Are you sure you meant Elonis v. United States?
> This was about threats made to an estranged wife, coworkers, a kindergarten class, state and federal law enforcement officers in Facebook
> posts using rap lyrics under a fake name.
> You can read it on the Supreme Courts web page.



Correct, that's limits on 1A and free speech.  Same holds true when it comes to this issue and Jeff.  As I said Jeff is well protected on cases like this.  Don't even go there.


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## Coolhammerman

Duplicate Post


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## edstreet

Even with text format changes it's still sleezy in my book.


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## rsx1974

So in regards to the Joyner jig, I don't care about what mandrel you use or the hundred different ways you could attach your Joyner Jig to your lathe.  He bead blasted it and engraves the numbers VS stamping them...

In my book it look like a 99% copy of the Joyner Jig...  Just my view on it!

Based on what I know and have seen, would I want my product sold by Peachtree?  No thanks.

Hope everyone has a great weekend! Turn something awesome!

John


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## alankulwicki7

I have one of the Joyner jigs along with the Ruth Niles mandrel and I love it. 

BTW, I made a drawbar for it using threaded rod and it works great. Total cost was about $2...

Looks like I'll be avoiding Peachtree as well.


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## alphageek

So, Mr Ron Brown...

You havn't stated your exact relationship with Peachtree, but you use the word "WE" an aweful lot, so I don't know if this is you responsible yourself or if you also talk about peachtree, so I'm just going to reply to YOUR comments.



Coolhammerman said:


> Our research revealed that Ruth or Mr. Joyner did not care enough about their design to apply for a patent, copyright, or trademark so I designed a much better unit.


Just because something isn't patented doesn't make it right when you copy it.  



Coolhammerman said:


> Since you think so little of me I wonder if you would care to get your facts straight before impugning my character further.


So, lets look at some of the 'facts' that you have presented in your defense.



Coolhammerman said:


> I purchased, at full price, a Joiner jig for my personal use from Ruth at one of the symposiums.


So one fact is that you actually have one of the Joyner jigs in your hands... Interesting...  Lets continue shall we.



Coolhammerman said:


> The most significant change among several was the inclusion of a drawbar system 50% larger and 100% stronger than the optional drawbar Ruth offers.


Fact -  This is not an actual change to the Joyner jig at all.  This is a different OPTIONAL accessory to go with the jig.   If this is your most significant change, I don't think this helps your case much.



Coolhammerman said:


> With no drawbar Ruth's jig constantly loosened from the headstock spindle, especially when I used it in the offset mode.
> This amounted to a huge and dangerous design flaw which I corrected.


Fact - Do some searching here, there has not been a single report of anyone having a problem with this loosening.   As a matter of fact, the reverse is true - most people who have asked anything about this or other chucks have asked for how to keep it from getting STUCK onto the headstock.  You will find answers including a piece of paper or a non-stick washer.
Opinion - I've personally never send the need for a drawbar on a screw-on-the-headstock item.  Drawbars are more often used with MT based items.   Look for bowl turning even with unstable, unrounded raw materials - I bet you will find that most dont show using a drawbar with their chucks.
Question - I'd love to hear from other Joyner plate users... Does ANYONE use a drawbar?  



Coolhammerman said:


> My jig although similar appearing is also shot blasted giving the entire unit a much more professionally finished satin look.
> All sharp edges are removed so that when the numerals are engraved rather than stamped they appear much more crisp and easier to read with no sharp edges to cut you when bumped inadvertantly.


Fact - These are all pretty minor superficial changes.   You havn't actually told us yet about any actualy improvements to the DESIGN of the jig.



Coolhammerman said:


> The basic technology is the same but there are significant and important design changes which make my jig safer and easier to use, more professional looking and a much better value.


You say "the basic technology is the same", but you say NOTHING of any real significant changes to the jig itself.  Your changes are purely cosmetic.   I would be willing to bet that if you showed it w/o a name, it would get confused with a Joyner jig.

As a matter of FACT, from the pictures is looks IDENTICAL in design to the Joyner jig.  The pieces, attachment methods,the hold patterns and placements.



Coolhammerman said:


> Ruth's failure to respond for whatever reason forced us to manufacture our own product.  *It was not our first choice*.



You talked alot about Ruth.   What you did not talk about was Mr Joyner, whos name is on the product.   You didn't say ANYTHING about having contacted him.  Did you try to work with him directly?  You didn't say so.   

Regardless .. There is only one FACT that you stated that I think was stated correctly. There is no Patent on the Joyner plate.   However, that fact doesn't justify making as direct a copy as you have. 

There is many people on this site that are little guys that have made unique products (for their sake I'm NOT going to list any more of them in this thread) and I don't believe you are going to win many over with your "only response" to this.

And disclaimer - YES, I'm related to the OP.. And YES - I own a Joyner jig and love it.

One final Note - this is not a gang attack on Ron Brown.  I hope this stays a reasonable thread.   I intentionally broke down my post with quotes from Ron to try and make my points clear to his comments.   A couple of big paragraphs of commentary could have been confusing and would likely be hard not to turn into an attack.


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## Ruth Niles

Holz Mechaniker said:


> WHO took the idea?  Ron Brown or Peachtree?  Saying that Ron Brown Stole it can get you RSX a big old school Libel law suit.  Just because there is a Label "Ron Brown's Best" doesn't mean he Stole anything. All Peachtree can say is that it was a Graphics error.  If you go to Ron's Site it is not listed.
> So I would say that it might be a wise idea for Jeff to remove this thread.  Because,  You RSX, IAP and Jeff can get sued.  Doesn't matter if they don't have an open and shut case. Jeff will have to get a lawyer just to protect himself.
> 
> Yet, it is a bit strange that the pictures from Ruth's site is perhaps being used on Peachtree....



I wasn't going to get in on this thread, however, I do understand a lot of you don't want to form an opinion based on one person's post.

The facts: 
Ron Brown is part of Peachtree (Sheri Baxter, part owner).
About a year ago Ron purchased one of the "Joyner Off-Set Jig Chucks" saying he wanted to try it and wanted to give classes using it.  
Ron Brown, as part of Peachtree, sent it to China and started selling it as "his" design.
At the show in Pitts. I went to their booth and told Ron he was the most unethical man I have ever met, he said "You would not be able to supply us with the quantity we needed." (exact words thus admitting he had knock offs made).  I said that we, indeed, could supply them, they NEVER asked or ordered and that in no way justifies them blatantly doing exact knock-offs.  He said nothing to that.

They sell my stoppers and, after this, I am quite nervous about that! 

The one thing I heard a few times was "It's wrong but everyone does it."
Yes, it's wrong.  No, "everyone" does not do it.  And saying "it's wrong but..." is like saying "it's ok".  

Richard and I have come up with a way of making his kit better; I'm going to include a Free drawbar and Richard is looking into having the plates anodized for increased longevity.  The alloy Richard uses for his jig is far superior to what comes out of China.

Ok, so I gave you a little more than "the facts".....  

Ruth Niles


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## Dan Masshardt

Alpha - your comments are good except for the one about the attachment method.   It uses an mt2 bottle stopper mandrel not screw on.  

I have had taper accessories come loose in rare occasion.  

I have a Joyner jig and use with the psi screw on stopper mandrel and works well.


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## NittanyLion

Dad had a '68 Oldsmobile 440 before he passed.....quite proud of that car he was. He didn't feel safe in it, so he had a mechanic install a power braking system.  He also had it re-painted a different color to spruce it up.  After he was done making these small changes, improving the car in his mind, it was still an Oldsmobile 440......and when I sold it, I sold it as an Oldsmobile 440......


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## Ruth Niles

Coolhammerman said:


> You are incorrect Mr. John T Charlier!
> 
> It is my policy to never "Copy" another product. If I can improve it, modify it to correct a serious deficiency or add features which significantly improve an item and it is not Patented, Copyrighted, Trademarked, etc. and if I think there is enough market demand, there is a possibility I will do something with that item. To copy something outright is unethical, to modify it and improve it so it is a better value for the customer is business.
> 
> There are always two sides to every story.  You have seen fit to lecture me, make harsh accusations and issue judgments having heard only one side of the story.  Since you think so little of me I wonder if you would care to get your facts straight before impugning my character further.
> 
> The folks at Peachtree Woodworking Supply placed in order for 50 Joyner jigs with Ruth.  We planned to sell Ruth Niles Joyner pendant jigs at all of the woodworking shows around the country.  90 days went by and we still had not received the product.  Several phone calls later still no product and no prospect of getting any product.  Did Ruth not wish to sell to us?  Did she not have the capacity to supply Joyner jigs and the quantity we needed?  Did she not want the retail competition?  In any event, after more than six months and having missed an entire show season it was clear that Ruth would not be supplying us with the Joyner pendant jig.
> 
> The folks at Peachtree, my largest dealer, asked me to design a safer more professional looking less expensive more functional off-center turning jig.  Our research revealed that Ruth or Mr. Joyner did not care enough about their design to apply for a patent, copyright, or trademark so I designed a much better unit. The basic technology is the same but there are significant and important design changes which make my jig safer and easier to use, more professional looking and a much better value.  The most significant change among several was the inclusion of a drawbar system 50% larger and 100% stronger than the optional drawbar Ruth offers.  I purchased, at full price, a Joiner jig for my personal use from Ruth at one of the symposiums.  With no drawbar Ruth's jig constantly loosened from the headstock spindle, especially when I used it in the offset mode.  This amounted to a huge and dangerous design flaw which I corrected.  My jig although similar appearing is also shot blasted giving the entire unit a much more professionally finished satin look.  All sharp edges are removed so that when the numerals are engraved rather than stamped they appear much more crisp and easier to read with no sharp edges to cut you when bumped inadvertantly.
> 
> Ruth's failure to respond for whatever reason forced us to manufacture our own product.  *It was not our first choice*. There is some small degree of overlap at the Woodturning symposiums where both Ruth and I are vendors.  My real market is the woodworking show circuit, a circuit Ruth totally neglects.  How can she purport to serve the turning world when she neglects nearly 100,000 customers a year?
> 
> I am pretty sure that Ruth will deny all of this as she did when she slandered me in a very loud shrill voice and called me a "son of a bitch" before a crowd of AAW attendees this past Friday.  However, the facts are the facts.  I can only conclude that Ruth Niles is struggling to separate fact from fiction. In the future I suggest you hear both sides of the story before making untrue accusations and defaming someone's good character. No one bothered to contact me before posting this hearsay bogus information. This is my only response.
> 
> Ron Brown




1. Lie: I have one of Ron Brown's Best Off-Set Jigs, took it to the machine shop and there were NO changes, improvements or anything; it is exact.
2. Lie: I don't offer a drawbar....never did.
3. Lie: I never received an order and it would have gone directly to Richard Joyner since I am only his distributor and have no authority to sell wholesale.
4. Lie: oh wait, not a lie, truth, I did call Ron Brown a "son of a bitch" and I still stand by my opinion.  You can't call my opinion "slander".


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## alphageek

Dan Masshardt said:


> Alpha - your comments are good except for the one about the attachment method.   It uses an mt2 bottle stopper mandrel not screw on.
> 
> I have had taper accessories come loose in rare occasion.
> 
> I have a Joyner jig and use with the psi screw on stopper mandrel and works well.



Well, yup ... I will definately agree that I have that piece wrong.  However,  the attachment method isn't the copy here, its the jig itself.    

That being said..  I bought a screw on stopper mandrel YEARS ago and its been partnered with my jig so long I forgot it wasn't the recommended way to attach it.

I went and grabbed my jig for a photo in case anyone wants to know how I attach it.


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## Dan Masshardt

alphageek said:


> Well, yup ... I will definately agree that I have that piece wrong.  However,  the attachment method isn't the copy here, its the jig itself.  That being said..  I bought a screw on stopper mandrel YEARS ago and its been partnered with my jig so long I forgot it wasn't the recommended way to attach it.  I went and grabbed my jig for a photo in case anyone wants to know how I attach it.



Yes.  I use the same exact method and it's great. 

Agree that it's an accessory not the jig itself either way.


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## BradG

Ruth Niles said:


> Richard is looking into having the plates anodized for increased longevity.
> 
> Ruth Niles



If you would like any advice with that, feel free to drop me a message  You could easily anodise them yourselves in house for next to nothing once you're setup.


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## mark james

This is a sad, but needed thread - _MY OPINION ONLY_!  And I thank the OP for starting this discussion.  It also is great that some of the parties involved are stating their case and WE can make our opinions accordingly.

It is about time "we" try to protect "us".  As I stated earlier, just because you "can do it" does not mean you "should do it"  (being barely legal is not the same as being ethical).  And to suggest that some action is "legal", but remain silent about being "ethical" speaks volumes (to me).

In my business, I have far too many unpaid "small" bills owed by parents who left without clearing their balance, and do not respond to polite reminders.  Far too small to matter on an individual basis for the cost and time, but folks know that they did wrong... and simply don't care :frown:.  No ethics, no morals, no credibility.


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## SkookumPens

Thanks for the information. I have been putting off buying one. I just order one from Ruth.
Thanks again
Craig Chatterton
Puyallup, WA


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## greggas

I have had one of the joyner setups since he first started making them one  at a time for us on this site...I think I got #7 .

I hate when ideas are ripped off....But, if he never patented this then he has no right to protect his idea....a lesson that has been learned many times ( and a few that I remember on this site)
With the internet and how fast ideas are spread around the world one MUST patent an idea if they want to protect it.


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## mbroberg

What Ron Brown did MIGHT be legal but even if it is it is not ethical or morally right.  While he may never be held legally accountable I do hope that his actions will cause people to to think about the type of business they are supporting when they make their purchases.  I can't support someone who would boldly place their name on someone else's invention.


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## magier412

mbroberg said:


> What Ron Brown did MIGHT be legal but even if it is it is not ethical or morally right.  While he may never be held legally accountable I do hope that his actions will cause people to to think about the type of business they are supporting when they make their purchases.  I can't support someone who would boldly place their name on someone else's invention.


 

Couldn't have said it better myself.  I cannot ethically do business with someone that would so easily take someone else's work and present it as their own...bottom line.


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## magier412

I might go so far as to ask that such unethical people be banned from this forum to - in some small way - prevent such behavior in the future.  I realize that there are many ways to buy and copy other's work, but no reason to leave the keys to the safe on the counter.  

Just my two cents


----------



## duncsuss

magier412 said:


> I might go so far as to ask that such unethical people be banned from this forum to - in some small way - prevent such behavior in the future.  I realize that there are many ways to buy and copy other's work, but no reason to leave the keys to the safe on the counter.
> 
> Just my two cents



I think this is completely unnecessary ... after the responses to his post in this thread, I doubt if Ron Brown will be coming back anytime soon (and if he does, so what?)


----------



## alphageek

magier412 said:


> I might go so far as to ask that such unethical people be banned from this forum to - in some small way - prevent such behavior in the future.  I realize that there are many ways to buy and copy other's work, but no reason to leave the keys to the safe on the counter.  Just my two cents



That won't happen.  Jeff does not like to ban people unless they break rules repeatedly.   Ron is welcome to post, but after Ruth's side, I will be surprised to see him do so again.

To get banned from here for "unethical" behavior it would have to have happened here and break part of the AUP.


----------



## edstreet

magier412 said:


> I might go so far as to ask that such unethical people be banned from this forum to - in some small way - prevent such behavior in the future.  I realize that there are many ways to buy and copy other's work, but no reason to leave the keys to the safe on the counter.
> 
> Just my two cents



First off, it's the internet.  There is no 'complete' way to 'ban' someone other than physically restrict the person, i.e. in jail. Even then you have to have serious restrictions, i.e. Kevin Mitnick was put in solitary because the belief was he had launch codes.

It's almost as silly as banning someone from websites and using IP addresses.  Truth of the matter is any of the emulator sites, translator sites, vpn sites, redirect sites, grey ghosting and .. get this .. google/yahoo/bing/aol/etc cache copies will get you what you need.

Banning might make certain people 'feel good' but in reality it does very little in the grand scope of things.


----------



## Holz Mechaniker

Well, then I will say...

IF it ain't made in the U. S. of A...   

Ya know what I am getting at.

Other points.
I don't think anodizing will be a wise move for you Ruth.  If something is too nice, it will be hard to want to use if it is "pretty."
Yet somehow it would be nice to have the numbers more visible. (noooo I will not get reading glasses)


----------



## alphageek

edstreet said:


> Banning might make certain people 'feel good' but in reality it does very little in the grand scope of things.



I would disagree with that completely Ed.   Jeff has in the past banned a few people (VERY rare, but sometimes necessary).   

It has done good.  It calms down the forum when someone has proven to be more trouble then they are worth it.  Have they come back to IAP?  It is indeed technically possible, but a ban was effective in that if the person did manage to return somehow, they knew not to "be themselves".

Don't believe me?  There is only one good way to know for sure - get yourself banned.  :biggrin:


----------



## Dan Masshardt

Thread is taking a turn off topic I'd say.


----------



## edstreet

Dan Masshardt said:


> Thread is taking a turn off topic I'd say.



Indeed it has. 

On many private discussions I have had on this topic one question came up that I wanted to present.  

Was there any type of contract, agreement, business relations or the like between these two parties that pre-dates the offending actions?


----------



## alphageek

edstreet said:


> Indeed it has.  On many private discussions I have had on this topic one question came up that I wanted to present.  Was there any type of contract, agreement, business relations or the like between these two parties that pre-dates the offending actions?



Back on topic Ed, I think your question is answered above.   Ruth sells for Joyner, Ron bought one unit from Ruth.   The only other business relationship is Ruth sells her products to peach tree.  For this conversation there is 3 parties, not two but I think it pretty clear based on the parties replies here.


----------



## CREID

Dan Masshardt said:


> Thread is taking a turn off topic I'd say.


 Back on the first page.


----------



## edstreet

What really does not make sense is this.

If indeed "50 units ordered" was made and 6 months or so later no delivery then does that mean 50 units were purchased and why was there no complaint about the $ issue?  The other side of this the person stated only one unit was bought and did not mention 50 units.

Seems that somewhere in this is a lie being told. ...


----------



## mbroberg

Coolhammerman said:


> The folks at Peachtree Woodworking Supply placed in order for 50 Joyner jigs with Ruth.  We planned to sell Ruth Niles Joyner pendant jigs at all of the woodworking shows around the country.
> Ron Brown





Ruth Niles said:


> 3. Lie: I never received an order and it would have gone directly to Richard Joyner since I am only his distributor and have no authority to sell wholesale.



Who do you believe?


----------



## edstreet

mbroberg said:


> Coolhammerman said:
> 
> 
> 
> The folks at Peachtree Woodworking Supply placed in order for 50 Joyner jigs with Ruth.  We planned to sell Ruth Niles Joyner pendant jigs at all of the woodworking shows around the country.
> Ron Brown
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ruth Niles said:
> 
> 
> 
> 3. Lie: I never received an order and it would have gone directly to Richard Joyner since I am only his distributor and have no authority to sell wholesale.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Who do you believe?
Click to expand...


Correct.  Which begged my question of ..



> Was there any type of contract, agreement, business relations or the like between these two parties that pre-dates the offending actions?



If you were placing an order for 50 of these would you not be in contact often and see how things were going?  It's called communication...

So either way we have one or both parties having lies.

With out more details and history on this there is no way of knowing what or where the truth of the matter is.  So both parties should reply and be more forth coming in the matter.


----------



## jfoh

Any order for 50 items like this would have involved some type of payment arrangements. Just not reasonable to expect a maker to produce 50 of any items without some type of money being exchanged or having a finical arrangement made. Terms would have been agreed to or full payment would have been made at the time the order was placed. They did not have standing financial or maker to buyer type accounts setup so something wold need to be setup at the time the order was placed. Since I have heard of no such type arrangements I doubt any order for 50 was ever placed. 

So I will try to avoid this vender and any company he represents. I will not reward those who choose to profit shamelessly of the works of others. Maybe legal but so is a total boycott of their goods and services.


----------



## Boss302

For those so inclined to pass judgment on what happened then I think more than enough information has been provided by the only people that have firsthand knowledge of what happened.  They each told their stories without speaking in riddles and overusing open ended rhetorical questions, which is always appreciated.


----------



## TonyL

Without impeding on anyone's freedom of speech...I would love to get back to ways to advance the penturning hobby. And yes, I don't have to read the posts (and I stopped)....but there's a lot of talent being consumed by a subject possibly better left for another "forum". Let's see some pens, learn about some techniques, and share goodwill!

I am going to start my 4th by making a few Vertexs,  Royales, and Jr gents! Can't wait!


----------



## CREID

TonyL said:


> Without impeding on anyone's freedom of speech...I would love to get back to ways to advance the penturning hobby. And yes, I don't have to read the posts (and I stopped)....but there's a lot of talent being consumed by a subject possibly better left for another "forum". Let's see some pens, learn about some techniques, and share goodwill!
> 
> I am going to start my 4th by making a few Vertexs,  Royales, and Jr gents! Can't wait!


 Yes!!!! let's see some pens, even ugly ones, tell me more about how to do some of the things I want to know how to do.
Let's all go back to TonyL's post hit like and then unsubscribe from this thread. That's what I'm going to do.


----------



## sailing_away

First I want to thank everyone for all the positive words that have been said. Yes, Ruth Niles does sell the tool I designed and have manufactured here in St. Pete, FL.  This tool is well designed from a collaborative effort between my brother-in-law and myself.  And with much input from IAP members, the tool has grown and changed a few times over the years.  The tool is not some cheap import.   

There never has been any communication regarding Peachtree Woodworking Supply asking to be a vendor or ordering a quantity of 50.  

The pendant plate is made out of high quality 6061 aluminum.  Both Ruth and I stand by the product and if there is ever a problem, we do everything we can to find a solution.  This goes for the pendant jig or any of her stoppers.  
As for the drawbar and the ¼” rod not being strong enough.  The only purpose of the drawbar is to hold the #2 morse taper into the headstock.  When I use mine, it only needs to be hand tightened.  Depending on the steel alloy used, ¼” all thread has a tensile strength between 1,900 and 2,700 lbs.  Well beyond what it needs to hold the mandrel in the headstock.  

One thing that I really have not talked about much is that this tool is manufactured locally.  And a part of all sales supports the teaching of middle school kids woodworking skills and a local youth sailing community.  Both of which are a passion of mine.  Over the years, there has been several local IAP members who have stopped by to either see the pendant jig in person or share tips and tricks they have learned on the lathe.  

I do agree with many others.  In the end, we all choose whom we order from.  There are many wonderful vendors that I have ordered from such as Craft Supply USA, Ruth Niles, Captain Eddie, Exotic Blanks just to name a few.


----------



## pianomanpj

sailing_away said:


> One thing that I really have not talked about much is that this tool is manufactured locally.  And a part of all sales supports the teaching of middle school kids woodworking skills and a local youth sailing community.  Both of which are a passion of mine.



Makes me even happier and prouder that I bought one from you in the early days.


----------



## Holz Mechaniker

nuff said


----------



## 2bgross

Ron Brown and Peach Tree have stolen my Acrylic Pen Buffing System (which I sell to Penn State, Craft Supply, Rockler and many others) and now have it labeled under his "Ron Brown's Best" label.  He even had the nerve to tell me to my face when he purchased from me at a wood working show that he wanted it so he show his grandson how to finish acrylics properly, that was in March.  In October he and Peach Tree announced their "NEW" Acrylic pen buffing system which was a direct knock off of my two wheel acrylic pen buffing system! Ron has stolen other ideas of mine and MANY other peoples ideas and turned them into his "Best" - he should label them "Ron Browns stolen products!"
Barry Gross


----------



## edstreet

It would appear that multiple people have been located with very similar reports.  Some of them have not posted here yet.


----------



## low_48

Just an observation about only buying from the original inventor after woodturning for 30 years. As a quick short list, how many of you use a Barracuda, Hurricane, or Grizzly 4 jaw chuck (knockoffs of Oneway or Vicmarc), circuit board pen kits (all of them are a knockoff from an older member of IAP), a Jet or Powermatic live center (they are a knockoff of Oneway), or a buffing system other than from JR Beall (certainly not an original invention, but the first packaged system for wood finishing I am familiar with). Not saying any of this is right or wrong, just saying that the original inventor gets lost with time and personal budgets often dictate purchasing decisions.


----------



## KBs Pensnmore

I designed a slide for the Engel fridge (plus 54 other makes) to go into the back of 4WD's. When I sold my business 4 years later there were 14 other makers of that unit, different materials, but all the same concept. Even Engel, who took 100 units every other month, took a unit to China, to get it copied. The runners weren't up to the standard, and fell apart in our rugged environment. To get it patented in Australia was going to cost something like $100,000, money I didn't have.
I know of a farmer, who lost his farm and over a million dollars in legal fees, just because the patent attorney, (who was Australia's top PA) put in adjoining, instead of adjoining/adjacent. Things only have to be changed 10%, to get away with it, unless it is a concept.
Kryn


----------



## edstreet

low_48 said:


> Just an observation about only buying from the original inventor after woodturning for 30 years. As a quick short list, how many of you use a Barracuda, Hurricane, or Grizzly 4 jaw chuck (knockoffs of Oneway or Vicmarc), circuit board pen kits (all of them are a knockoff from an older member of IAP), a Jet or Powermatic live center (they are a knockoff of Oneway), or a buffing system other than from JR Beall (certainly not an original invention, but the first packaged system for wood finishing I am familiar with). Not saying any of this is right or wrong, just saying that the original inventor gets lost with time and personal budgets often dictate purchasing decisions.



You left out PSI, Berea, watch parts and Tormek.


----------



## turncrazy43

I purchased a Joyner off set jig from Ruth Niles and love it. Her website has video clips (3) showing the use of the jig. All three suggest the use of a draw bar for safety and I believe her site recommends the use of one as well. I have not seen Ron Brown's off set jig to comment on how it is alike or different from the Joyner jig.

However, the discussions in this thread prompted me to check the Peachtree catalog and I found what appears to be the same situation with Ron Browns texturing tools. I believe  they may have been sold by Sorby and Wagner before they appeared as "Ron Brown's Best". They seem by photos to be exact copies. I also note that Ron Brown is selling wood finishing products originally brought out by Doctor's Wood Shop. There does appear to be a trend here to copy others work for the sake of marketing a less expensive copy. If profit is the sole motive then it would seem  unethical even if it may be legal.
Wayne


----------



## mark james

turncrazy43 said:


> . There does appear to be _a trend here to copy others work_ for the sake of marketing a less expensive copy. If _profit is the sole motive_ then it would seem  unethical even if it may be legal.
> Wayne



Yup...  Nuf said :redface:!


----------



## low_48

I still find this so curious of a post. The entire woodworking industry, and especially the woodturning side, is filled with copies. In fact, our countries history is filled with examples. Ever read the history between the Wright Brothers and Glenn Curtiss? The Feds made them "kiss and make up" for the war effort. But the Wrights spent years in court suing Curtiss. Curiously, the company is now called Curtiss-Wright today.


----------



## Dan Masshardt

low_48 said:


> I still find this so curious of a post. The entire woodworking industry, and especially the woodturning side, is filled with copies. In fact, our countries history is filled with examples. Ever read the history between the Wright Brothers and Glenn Curtiss? The Feds made them "kiss and make up" for the war effort. But the Wrights spent years in court suing Curtiss. Curiously, the company is now called Curtiss-Wright today.



This is a really good question and I think it deserves it's own thread - one that will have a different title that this specific instance.


----------



## wyone

well I do not own one, and have never held one in my hand.  My opinion.. yes they had the right to copy the item...  legally at least... morally.. not at all..  I work hard to help small businesses out and I know if I have a choice to buy the same item from Ruth or from anyone else, I am going to buy from Ruth always.  Customer service is HUGE in my mind and she is nothing but top notch in that.  It makes me sad that the person who developed the idea and design will not be the one to get all of the profit, but those of us who appreciate quality will continue to make the purchases from the right people.  I hope this thread generates more sales for Ruth in all aspects.


----------



## BSea

low_48 said:


> Just an observation about only buying from the original inventor after woodturning for 30 years. As a quick short list, how many of you use a Barracuda, Hurricane, or Grizzly 4 jaw chuck (knockoffs of Oneway or Vicmarc), circuit board pen kits (all of them are a knockoff from an older member of IAP), a Jet or Powermatic live center (they are a knockoff of Oneway), or a buffing system other than from JR Beall (certainly not an original invention, but the first packaged system for wood finishing I am familiar with). Not saying any of this is right or wrong, just saying that the original inventor gets lost with time and personal budgets often dictate purchasing decisions.


1st off let me say that I don't know if the original companies filed patents, or obtained copyrights to their products.  But they are larger companies that should have done so.  Even so, if a patent was filed after 1995, it's good for 20 years. After that, then I think it's ok to produce a similar item. 

 But that doesn't make sense for something with a limited market like an off center jig for making a pendant.  The legal fees would probably eat up the majority of the profit for the 1st 20 years.  Also Ron Brown says that Ruth is neglecting 100,000 customers a year.  I'd be really surprised if the total jigs sold from Ruth and Ron combined was anywhere near 50,000, let alone 100,000.  In such a niche market, there really should be some laws for the little guys.  But since there isn't (I don't think anyway).  About the only thing we can do is judge with our pocketbooks.  I have been a Peachtree customer in the past, but no longer.  When I read this thread, I unsubscribed from getting anymore e-mails.


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## keithy

*How to deal with rip off merchants.*

Copyright is created when a work of art is first made.  It is intrinsic and it is not necessary to do any paper work to engender it. Trademark and design registration cost money and Patents are very expensive.  If the knock off is made in China they ignore patents anyway unless they hold the rights in which case they aggressively pursue you.  I hold several patents in my primary area of expertise all paid for by the company that I worked for at the time of invention.  All of them cost more than 100K to acquire.  A couple of them were ripped off by companies in mainland China and getting legal redress was long and expensive ( to the point of not being worth taking) I have seen several cases where artists work has been blatantly copied by large corporations (in one case onto a best selling t shirt) and the cost of legal action was prohibative.

There is only one solution and that is to boycott both the copier and any company that is a vendor for said copier.


----------



## wolftat

I fail to see why everyone (other than Ruth) is getting so upset here, this goes on all the time, even between vendors on this forum. There is one person here that spent a lot of money and time developing a product that was made and sold here and after one person ordered one for himself, he went into business making and selling the nearly same item. Its all about the money and those that have the most can fight it, the little guy usually gets the shaft. That's life, suck it up and move on.
 This is my opinion and I can have it, please feel free to like or dislike it or me if you want. Personally, if I was to buy one of these jigs, my money would go to Ruth simply because of the way a salesperson spoke to me at a woodworkers show while visiting the Peachtree display. First impressions can be everything.


----------



## BJohn

Like many have mentioned, the way to make a statement to the Ron Browns of the world. Yes (unfortunately there are others just like him), that would rather make $$$ off the labors of others. For out of the lack of gray matter, laziness or ingenuity can not do it on their own.

That being said (in may opinion) the way to get the message across is in their pockets. Believe me his type watch every penny were it goes and how it is invested. He will not like money sitting on the stock room shelf.

Personally I made a size able purchase from Peach Tree at last years SWAT Symposium. It will not happen again this year, and may actually let them know why none of my $$$ was spent with them.


----------



## Dan Masshardt

Here's the thing though - outside of this forum, whos even going to know?

Most people will either see it at the woodworking show or the ptree website or Ron Brown's email newsletter and think, hey that's a cool invention.  

Others will see it and think, oh, he probably licensed or distributes it.  

Others won't know or care who invented / sold it first.   

I'll make a bold prediction. (Not joyfully): Ron Brown will sell many more of these than Ruth Niles does.


----------



## edstreet

So basically what I am hearing is many GOOD reasons to *NOT* share info, ideas, designs or the like on the forum here.  Else the great copy machine will go to work.


----------



## alphageek

edstreet said:


> So basically what I am hearing is many GOOD reasons to *NOT* share info, ideas, designs or the like on the forum here.  Else the great copy machine will go to work.



I had a feeling someone was going to take it there.

That's like listening to Sir Isaac Newton telling the story of gravity and hearing "man, don't plant apple trees so they don't fall on your head".

I'm pretty sure the moral of this thread is "avoid the rotten apple", not "don't share your applesauce recipes".

The OP didn't say that the idea was stolen from the forum here (as a matter of fact there is 2 sellers who say that a single item was purchased before being copied).

Now, if you don't want to share info, ideas, etc here - that's your prerogative... but I'll tell you that there is WAY more good ideas shared here than are "stolen".   However, if you are holding back from sharing here because your ideas might be stolen, you can't stop there... Don't share here, facebook or anywhere else on the web.   Don't sell your products, don't MAKE anything, heck - you better just keep the idea in your head.   It will be good and safe there!   (and just in case you can't read it - there's more than a pinch of sarcasm here).


----------



## Dan Masshardt

edstreet said:


> So basically what I am hearing is many GOOD reasons to *NOT* share info, ideas, designs or the like on the forum here.  Else the great copy machine will go to work.



Maybe but doesn't seem to apply that much for this particular case.  

Some products are very difficult to duplicate  and thus sharing info / process opens someone up to copying etc.  

I've been told by some makers that the issue is sometimes that someone will claim they want to one for themselves or personal use and then they pop up for sale.   I can understand this concern and have no doubts that it's true. 

Others don't intend to market a product and this have no problem sharing all sorts of info. 

In the case of this jig, there aren't a lot of secrets involved once you hold one in your hand. The design took a lot of work and trial and error for sure but the final product is very easily apparent to duplicate.


----------



## BJohn

" Here's the thing though - outside of this forum, who's even going to know? ""

Dan "Come on"

That all depends on you, me and everyone else on this forum that agrees that this practice is unethical. Peach Tree or Ron Brown are not the only ones that excess to Face Book and other forms of social media. Send an email to all of the members of your wood turning/wood working clubs, let them know! Besides that there is always the good ole fashion WORD OF MOUTH! That still is one of the best ways to spread the word.

Again like someone mentioned this a small niche of a market. You take away even a small portion of their customers it will hurt them, may not put them out of business, but will hurt.

Then maybe the next guy will think twice.

So if we do sit back on our butt's and do nothing, we are basically condoning the practice. Then we have no business complaining. Let's just shut up!

Don't want to go into politics but, if you need an example look at what this country has come to. While the vast majority sits in their peach's & cream world. The special interest groups have chipped away at everything we once held dear.


----------



## tjseagrove

It may not be patented but it definitely would fall under copyright law.  Copyright exists when something is created even without it being registered.  A direct copy would be copyright infringement and a lawyer who specializes in this part of law should be consulted as we here most likely know enough to get ourselves in trouble... 
271


----------



## Dan Masshardt

BJohn said:


> " Here's the thing though - outside of this forum, who's even going to know? ""  Dan "Come on"  That all depends on you, me and everyone else on this forum that agrees that this practice is unethical. Peach Tree or Ron Brown are not the only ones that excess to Face Book and other forms of social media. Send an email to all of the members of your wood turning/wood working clubs, let them know! Besides that there is always the good ole fashion WORD OF MOUTH! That still is one of the best ways to spread the word.  Again like someone mentioned this a small niche of a market. You take away even a small portion of their customers it will hurt them, may not put them out of business, but will hurt.  Then maybe the next guy will think twice.  So if we do sit back on our butt's and do nothing, we are basically condoning the practice. Then we have no business complaining. Let's just shut up!  Don't want to go into politics but, if you need an example look at what this country has come to. While the vast majority sits in their peach's & cream world. The special interest groups have chipped away at everything we once held dear.



There are levels of upset about something.  

One is it changes your attitude as buying habits.  The other is that it sends you on the warpath. 

For me it's prob mostly the first as well as informing someone considering buying such an item in the history of the situation.  

I don't intend to go on the warpath and I doubt many here who are upset will either.  

That's not to say someone shouldn't...


----------



## BJohn

Well as much as I wanted to just let my part of this discussion die. I can't.

But promise this will be be my last comment. (like anyone cares) But I will move on to more positive discussions. 

I Don't want people to think I am on the "warpath" Because I am not, I am just stating my opinion. Which may give others that are so inclined some ideas.

While I realize this is not going to happen! What I would encourage Mr. Brown to do, is to admit the mistake, apologize remove the item from sale or maybe send Mr. Joyner a royalty. That might go a long way.

One other thought is to encourage other actual manufactures to pull their products from him. Trust me they would not be hurt. I may be wrong but I don't think his piece of the pie is that large.

So basically the choice to make, ignore and condone or take a stand, Every one can make their own decision for whats right for them.

I have made my choice, all have a great day ya'll.


----------



## Dan Masshardt

BJohn said:


> Well as much as I wanted to just let my part of this discussion die. I can't.  But promise this will be be my last comment. (like anyone cares) But I will move on to more positive discussions.  I Don't want people to think I am on the "warpath" Because I am not, I am just stating my opinion. Which may give others that are so inclined some ideas.  While I realize this is not going to happen! What I would encourage Mr. Brown to do, is to admit the mistake, apologize remove the item from sale or maybe send Mr. Joyner a royalty. That might go a long way.  One other thought is to encourage other actual manufactures to pull their products from him. Trust me they would not be hurt. I may be wrong but I don't think his piece of the pie is that large.  So basically the choice to make, ignore and condone or take a stand, Every one can make their own decision for whats right for them.  I have made my choice, all have a great day ya'll.



Good comment!  I prob chose a poor word in 'warpath' as it's somewhat negatively connotated.  

I would not fault anybody for taking active efforts to let others know what's going on.    It would prob be good if more people took an active role.


----------



## edstreet

tjseagrove said:


> It may not be patented but it definitely would fall under copyright law.  Copyright exists when something is created even without it being registered.  A direct copy would be copyright infringement and a lawyer who specializes in this part of law should be consulted as we here most likely know enough to get ourselves in trouble...
> 271



Incorrect.  This chuck does not fall under copyright laws, you might want to brush up on patent/trademark/copyright laws.

copyright = published/unpublished works.
trademark = symbol, logo, name.
patent = invention, an object, process, that was developed.


----------



## dogcatcher

Quite a bit of the overall design was contributed by some people from IAP.  But even that idea came from here.  Turned Jewellery - The Woodworkers Institute

If I remember correctly someone made the first pendants using a screw chuck and it kind of snowballed from there.   Then Joyner added the indexing and refined it to what his chuck is today.  Until I bought the chuck from Joyner, I used a PSI bottle stopper chuck with a piece of round aluminum that I had drilled and tapped.  Prior to that I used a piece of Corian for my "off set face plate" with the PSI bottle chuck.  Sometimes I still use them both if I am only making simple pendants.


----------



## KenV

There have been a raft of off center jigs  -- 

PSI has the CSC600 which was developed by and individual an then was taken over for marketing by PSI -  

Axminister has an off center chuck that fits into a 4 jaw scroll chuck jaws that does many of the same functions

There is the piece of board between two jaws on a scroll chuck and the board is moved for the offset --  I use a Super Nova 2 with 2 100mm  opposing jaws.   

Gary Ransom sells a DVD to teach you how to make a jig that fits in the scroll chuck jaws  The Ransom approach allows shaping of both sides of the items being turned.

and others....


How close does it need to be before it is a knock off -    For another example the Steb drives were patented and licensed to Sorby -- and knocked off quickly and there was some legal mumbo-jumbo and settlement.  

Without a patent there is just competition in marketing, and competition in pricing.


----------



## Smitty37

jfoh said:


> Any order for 50 items like this would have involved some type of payment arrangements. Just not reasonable to expect a maker to produce 50 of any items without some type of money being exchanged or having a finical arrangement made. Terms would have been agreed to or full payment would have been made at the time the order was placed. They did not have standing financial or maker to buyer type accounts setup so something wold need to be setup at the time the order was placed. Since I have heard of no such type arrangements I doubt any order for 50 was ever placed.
> 
> So I will try to avoid this vender and any company he represents. I will not reward those who choose to profit shamelessly of the works of others. Maybe legal but so is a total boycott of their goods and services.


Not necessarily I recently made an order with A vendor here for 500 kits - verbal order on the phone -- no money changed hands until the order was almost completed and I had received 70 units to examine.  People still occasionally do business on mutual trust.


----------



## Smitty37

low_48 said:


> I still find this so curious of a post. The entire woodworking industry, and especially the woodturning side, is filled with copies. In fact, our countries history is filled with examples. Ever read the history between the Wright Brothers and Glenn Curtiss? The Feds made them "kiss and make up" for the war effort. But the Wrights spent years in court suing Curtiss. Curiously, the company is now called Curtiss-Wright today.


Curtiss and the Wright brothers were all dead when the two companies merged.


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## TonyL

I unsubscribed a few days ago...but maybe, it would be nice to move this to a different post where it does continually name the accused individual of stealing. It seems like many see all sides to this..yet the title stays the same. I met and spoke to Ron, met and spoke to Barry, and spoke to Ruth and own some of their products. They were all super nice to me, before and after I bought their products. Hasn't anyone else been treated nicely? And yes, I have been stolen from, lied to, ripped-off (not by them), falsely accused, and all of the other stuff that we all experience. Why can't we continue this "lively debate" (I think it is a very interesting topic BTW), without anyone's name being presented as a thief? Maybe, I am a dope and missing the big picture...just my 1 cent to keep us on track and reflect the underlying goodwill and good intentions of the members and vendors. FWIW .


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## Smitty37

*The Bottom Line*

I'll preface what I'm going to say with this - I don't have a dog in this hunt - I carried Ruth's bottle stoppers for a time and my dealings with Ruth were fine.  I have never done business with Peachtree so I know nothing about them and I won't make any judgement about either.

Having said that: It may be unfortunate but it is a fact of life and built into the nature of human beings that if we see someone doing something that works better than what we've been doing we will copy it.  The second person to use a stick to make a furrow to plant something in copied the first.  

That will hold true for any useful invention.  

That is the reason patent laws came about - to give someone the exclusive right to an invention for a limited period of time.

That patent laws exist puts inventors on notice, that unless they use them their best inventions WILL be 'knocked off' and being perfectly frank there is nothing we can do that will change that.

We  might not like it but it's a fact of life.  Maybe what we should try to do is make it less costly to get a patent.


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## tjseagrove

edstreet said:


> tjseagrove said:
> 
> 
> 
> It may not be patented but it definitely would fall under copyright law.  Copyright exists when something is created even without it being registered.  A direct copy would be copyright infringement and a lawyer who specializes in this part of law should be consulted as we here most likely know enough to get ourselves in trouble...
> 271
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Incorrect.  This chuck does not fall under copyright laws, you might want to brush up on patent/trademark/copyright laws.
> 
> copyright = published/unpublished works.
> trademark = symbol, logo, name.
> patent = invention, an object, process, that was developed.
Click to expand...



A sculpture is not copyrighted?  No copyright on visual appearance?  And don't forget, I recommended seeking the advice of someone who actually knows what they are doing (a lawyer) as no one here is any kind of an expert on this subject.  Make it a teachable moment, no need to come down so hard.
642649


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## Smitty37

tjseagrove said:


> edstreet said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tjseagrove said:
> 
> 
> 
> It may not be patented but it definitely would fall under copyright law.  Copyright exists when something is created even without it being registered.  A direct copy would be copyright infringement and a lawyer who specializes in this part of law should be consulted as we here most likely know enough to get ourselves in trouble...
> 271
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Incorrect.  This chuck does not fall under copyright laws, you might want to brush up on patent/trademark/copyright laws.
> 
> copyright = published/unpublished works.
> trademark = symbol, logo, name.
> patent = invention, an object, process, that was developed.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> A sculpture is not copyrighted?  No copyright on visual appearance?  And don't forget, I recommended seeking the advice of someone who actually knows what they are doing (a lawyer) as no one here is any kind of an expert on this subject.  Make it a teachable moment, no need to come down so hard.
> 642649
Click to expand...

 While most copyright application is to written (published or unpublished) works the legal definition specifically  includes sculptural works as well as architectual works.


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## LancsLad

*Ron Brown Stolen Jig*

Hi I just joined December 2015. I find it real sad when someone does this. It only takes one phone call or e-mail to contact anyone. Or he could have added a link to the original inventor.

I am signed up for Ron Browns Best news letter.
I will be unsubscribing after this post.

Honesty Rules


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## low_48

I'm sad that your third post here drug up this post! Here we go again,it only took 92 posts for it to die the last time.


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## GaryMGg

pianomanpj said:


> sailing_away said:
> 
> 
> 
> One thing that I really have not talked about much is that this tool is manufactured locally.  And a part of all sales supports the teaching of middle school kids woodworking skills and a local youth sailing community.  Both of which are a passion of mine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Makes me even happier and prouder that I bought one from you in the early days.
Click to expand...


Me too!


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## BeeAMaker

In the open source hardware / electronics / DIY / 3D printing community, unfortunately, we see this type of thing quite often. However it is usually excusable if they follow the creative commons agreements. 

In short, when you put a product or Idea out there as "Open Source" i.e. no patent, you allow others to use your Idea or product. There are 3 stipulations, 1: The "copy cat" should *change on and improve* the design. 2: Release the new design as *"Open Source"* for others to further make improvements. and 3: Give full credit to the originator of the Idea.

If those 3 things weren't met, then I agree, he needs a brow beating  

I have had a similar thing happen to me in the 3D printing world. But they went a step further. They sent me a nice email asking me to please stop using "their" Idea. LOLOLOL I responded with all the fact, figures, and links proving I had it out first, almost 2 years prior. I never got a response.

It sucks but when greed latches onto people it can get really ugly. 3D systems tried similar tactics by stealing Ideas, filing for patents, then tried to sue the original designer for patent infringement. It goes on and on.

I don't mind my ideas being taken so much as I do not being accredited for those ideas.


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## JimB

This is an old thread. I don't know why you are bringing it back to life.


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## cal91666

JimB said:


> This is an old thread. I don't know why you are bringing it back to life.




If old threads aren't suppose to be commented on by new members they should be locked.


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## BeeAMaker

Sorry, didn't realize the date on the previous postings - otherwise I would not have posted. The reason I thought it was a new post was becasue it was at the bottom of the page, where there are two threads listed and an arrow to scroll through more. I assumed (wrong obviously) these were "recent postings".

Still learning the layout of the forums.


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## cal91666

IMO you don't need to apologize.  There are some who complain when a member doesn't use the search function to obtain information that has already been discussed and there are some who will complain about a new member commenting on a thread that has dropped from the most current discussions.  It takes all types to make the world go round.


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## Lenny

It happens! No harm done. 
Actually, there is a lot to learn here by reading some of the old threads.


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## edstreet

Even tho the date may be 'old' the situation is still 'current'.


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## Smitty37

Hmmmm,,,,Ed Street I don't know what is going on but this is the 2nd time in about a week (the other was on face book) that I have agreed completely with one of your posts.  That's scary. :wink::biggrin:


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## steamshovel

I'm not taking sides but is there a patent or copyright? Even if there is after a certain amount of years it may be open game. I would need to know all the particulars first.


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