# Woodturning as a business



## ancwoodturnings (Dec 24, 2012)

Is there really a possiblility of starting a woodturning business for me? is there any money in it?


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## markspens (Dec 24, 2012)

If you have to ask..........


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## Miles42 (Dec 24, 2012)

I consider it a hobby. For time effort and materials breaking even is a goal to keep the hobby alive.


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## jj9ball (Dec 24, 2012)

If you want it to be a business.  You will have to treat it like a business.  This means accounting for overhead, profit, and your own wage.  It also means there will be times that it is absolute drudgery and you have to make pens for your inventory that you have made 100 times before no matter how boring it gets.  I have been making and selling my pens on the internet for the better part of 5 years and it has completely purchased all my equipment for me and made me extra money beyond that.  Every Friday I go out in my shop (some saturdays and sundays this time of year too) and make between 15 and 20 pens and get them listed on my store.  I do make money at, but I gotta be honest, sometimes it is downright boring.  It never was when I first started, but 5 years later I'm still making and selling many of the same pens.  The good news is that there is demand for them.  The bad news is that it gets boring after a while.  Don't let people tell you that ebay and etsy won't make you money, but YOU HAVE TO TREAT IT LIKE A BUSINESS.  For me that means sometimes "giving" a pen away so people can sample my work.  Marketing and advertising are the very most important things you can do on the internet.  It will seperate you from the guy who has 10 pens to sell and has probably only ever made 50 in his whole life.  If you want to be one of the people who come on this website and wine about not making money on ebay or etsy treat it like a hobby.  If you want to make money at it treat it like a business.  Decide what you inventory will be and how much is a good number for you and experiment with pricing to find your own sweet spot.  I hope this helps.  Good luck!!!!


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## bradh (Dec 24, 2012)

Many people like woodturning as a hobby and give away their work. They will be part of your competition. 
  You can't beat them on price, so you will need to have much better product.


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## greggas (Dec 24, 2012)

Are you familiar with the term " starving artist" ?
It's fun but totally different earning scale that many other ways of life


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## thewishman (Dec 24, 2012)

How much money do you want to make?


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## beck3906 (Dec 24, 2012)

Many small business owners recognize that to be successful, you'll invest 12-14 hour days, 6 days per week.  Sunday may be only 6 hours.  It's tough as you'll be manufacturing, accounting, marketing, and sales rep at shows.


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## Smitty37 (Dec 24, 2012)

*Yes*



ancwoodturnings said:


> Is there really a possiblility of starting a woodturning business for me? is there any money in it?


Of course there is a possibility but....like any other business you must be willing to invest the time and energy to make it go.  You can't just turn an item or two and have people rushing to your door.  I think the most successful guys on here are salesmen first and penturners second...some of them might argue with that but I'll tell you what, if you aren't a salesman you're not likely to have much of a business - they do not sell themselves at prices or in quantities to support a business.

The first thing you MUST do is understand all of your production costs - then you have to dicide which of the many venues you will enter to sell your wares and understand your selling costs along with the price range you can expect in the venue(s) - then you have to decide how you are going to get paid and understand your collection costs - then if you are going to ship you'll have to decide how and understand the shipping costs.

You then have to decide if you can sell at a profit in the venue you choose.


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## low_48 (Dec 24, 2012)

yes


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## Phillikl (Dec 24, 2012)

That question is kind of mis-leading....  Wood turning business for you...  There are a "metric butt ton" of questions you need to be asking yourself.  Is this going to be your sole income?  How are you going to sell?  What are your overheads?  Biggest question of all; Will your significant other, kids, friends going to support you with this decision??  Which leads to not the final question, but a direct link to the "support" question; How much time do to you think you will dedicate to this business???  I once heard Donald Trump say, every business has to potential to succeed, but it's owners will be the downfall of it's success...  

You have to keep in mind, to be a sole income, you will be more or less a factory worker.  While many of us hobitize this profession, we make money, and how much money we make is dependent on much effort we put into sell.  For me, this is a stress release type hobby, that if I make a few $$ here or there (all work of mouth advertisement), it all goes into something new.  I will NEVER break even, I will NEVER become a millionaire, and 30% of the stuff I make become gifts (the child like grin on their face is worth its weight in gold).

Now for the eye gouging boring stuff.......

Is there any money in it....  Of course there is!! For me, every time I go into the woodshop, I fork out a couple hundred $$ for supplies, kits, new equipment, etc...  I think you were looking more on the lines is there any income to it...  That is totally up to you.  I personally don't have a pen stand for flea markets or craft shows, but the few I have seen normally run around 300-400 displays.  Lets apply an average rate of "what it costs" of $10 per display (materials, kits, wood, display cases, booth rental, electricity, tool costs; pretty much everything but labor), we now have $3000-$4000 tied up in marketable merchandise.  While $10 is an assumption, we have to have some type of starting figure.  Now lets say you want to charge an hourly rate for custom wood working, that price varies tremendously (anywhere from $30-$1,000s an hour).  Lets assume $20 an hour, I can on a good day, turn 2 pens per hour.... I know I have read claims of 15 minutes per pen, I'm slow, like to take my time, and get distracted easily.  So lets take our $10 pen and add labor, now we are looking at $20.  Would I advertise my custom pens for $20, umm probably not, would more then likely ask $25, then allow to sell for $20.  So if I sold the 400 pens I have in inventory ($4000 in materials) I would clear around $4000!  Sounds great doesn't it!!  Put $4,000 apply 200 hours of work and get $4000 for the bank account!! Now we must add the ying for this yang.  You may go an entire weekend at the craft show/arts show/flea market etc (anywhere from $100-$350 a day) and not sell a pen 1!  It may take you a year to sell those 400 pens, or a weekend.  It depends on the right place at the right time.  For those 400 pens, I would have around 200 hours tied up in labor, but you may exceed that multiple times over in waiting for a customer.  

There are always internet sales (ebay, etsy, etc), however with 100% of my customers have told me, I don't care how great you make the photo's look, or how well you pitch the sales, the selling point was me holding it! The pen sold itself!  You have other walls with internet sales too, you will not be able to control the market, because there are 500 other vendors to choose from (this is not always the case).

I am in no means trying to steer you away from starting your own business and making money. Being in the "Manpower" world (as my 9-5 job), I want peak your thought process on everything that goes into becoming a business owner and some of the road blocks you may encounter.  Trust me, while I only scratched about a dozen surfaces, the more prepared you are pre-business will pay 1000 times over in the business phases.

Good Luck!

Merry Christmas!
~Kendall


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## ossaguy (Dec 25, 2012)

Wow,there is some real good advice here.

Lots of real-world things to think about.



Steve


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## KBs Pensnmore (Dec 25, 2012)

beck3906 said:


> Many small business owners recognize that to be successful, you'll invest 12-14 hour days, 6 days per week.  Sunday may be only 6 hours.  It's tough as you'll be manufacturing, accounting, marketing, and sales rep at shows.


Been there done that, (Off Road Accessory manufacturing). Have had times where I've done 36hr days, some days made $30.00 worth of product, inquiries, phone calls, drop in for chats (they have a free day, thought they would waste mine) 2hrs quoting a job - not to return.
Now days,I would suggest that unless you have a lazy $100,000 laying around, forget it. You would probably get a better return on  bank interest!!!
You can end up with a small fortune, BUT you have to start with a large one.
DAMHIKT!!!!!
Kryn


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## raar25 (Dec 25, 2012)

If you want some simple sanity to everything that was just said, you can make some money, but where I live, you really cant make a single income family living before everyone in the family starved to death.


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## starnovice (Dec 25, 2012)

So, what I am hearing is that you can sell your pens to help make room for more pens and to bring in some income to continue with your hobby. but unless you open a factory with a bunch of Chinese minimum wage earners forget supporting yourself.


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## nativewooder (Dec 25, 2012)

With today's business attitudes, Good Luck!


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## Bruce markwardt (Dec 25, 2012)

A few years back I took a couple of classes from Rude Osolnik.  He was one of the preeminent turners at the time.  Between turning and teaching, he was surviving, but the fact that he called his shop "Poverty Ridge" pretty much described his financial situation.

Rude made his living turning candle sticks.  He turned one every 6 minutes - from blank to finished product.  It was something to see.  Truly production turning.  I forget the exact number he said he had made, but it was over 100,000.  Personally, I can't imagine the repetition that would entail.

Bottom line is he made a living at it, so it is possible.  However, it's not particularly glamorous and it is hugely competitive.  He had to sell at prices that were competitive with hobbyists who were not concerned with actually making money.


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## Old Lar (Dec 25, 2012)

I have found that it is a hobby that pays its way.  First one like that I've ever had.  I could not put in the time, etc. that it would take to make it a business.  I have made about 300 pens a year, sold most and still have a lot of fun.  For me, that is the line between a hobby and a business.


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## RDH79 (Dec 25, 2012)

*I'm  trying*

Well i am trying to get to the point where I think i can make it as a busniess. But I dont seem to be able to do without my income from my 3 or 4 day a week day job.
I do about 15 shows a year and talk to many of the artists. You will not life a normal life. 
Some have to do 40 to 50 shows a year. A good show is not guarenteed. 
So you should  have some money to back you up for a few years to get set and find that nitch
Thats my problem I dont have that back up.


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## Smitty37 (Dec 25, 2012)

*HOBBY*

As a hobby it's not too bad - a lot cheaper than golf.  

Cost me a lot less than owning a boat with a 105 gallon gas tank that didn't leave the dock for an average of much less than $200.  

Turning sometimes seems expensive but not when you compare it to other hobbies.  Try collecting coins or stamps, I have and they can empty your pockets pretty quickly too.  Many hobbies when you think of it, cost a lot.  I made a lot of cottage furniture as woodworking, we use most of it ourselvees. Each piece cost less then it would have cost to buy it made by someone else but it still cost a lot (I did end up with a lot of nice tools though).

If you are trying to go with just pen turning it will be tough just as it would with any other single product business, which is why razors and key chains and the other odds and ends are around.   Even there you have a lot of free or darned cheap competition..


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## azamiryou (Dec 25, 2012)

All good advice here. Remember, if you make it a business, "woodturner" is just one role you need covered. Selling, customer service, bookkeeping, marketing, and so on, are all necessary to the business. Any of these you don't have the skill, inclination, or time to do, you'll have to find (and probably pay) someone to do.

It absolutely can be done. It's not a magical make-money-quick business, though, so you'll have to approach it with a plan and plenty of resources (time and money) - same as any other business.


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## jfoh (Dec 25, 2012)

Any one man business is a very hard job. As a one person show you get few breaks but still have to wear about a dozen hats. There is money to be made in pens or any other wood working venture but not vast, easy sums of cash. Most are happy for a modest return and all expenses covered. If you run it as a break even venture you will certainly loose money, run it as a for profit venture you stand a better chance of not loosing as much.  I made a lot of money ten years ago with pens, but am very happy now just to offset some of my expenses. Be happy with what you are doing or do not try. There are easier ways to make a few buck. Selling organs is one, if you can get them from neighbors for little or no money.


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## bradh (Dec 26, 2012)

starnovice said:


> So, what I am hearing is that you can sell your pens to help make room for more pens and to bring in some income to continue with your hobby. but unless you open a factory with a bunch of Chinese minimum wage earners forget supporting yourself.


Even with cheap labour, you still cannot beat the price of the hobbiests giving away their product, or the wood pens for sale in the dollar store.


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## mikespenturningz (Dec 26, 2012)

I have not actually made any money on my pens but I think I am close to even on them. It has been a lot of fun but I find I could spend many more hours marketing than turning to really get things to take off. I don't hurry any of my pens no matter if they are $59 or $99 so I end up with at least an hour in each pen especially if you count photographing, gluing up the blanks marketing and all that goes into it. Having to deal with customers that want to return their pen because it was heavier than they thought it would be and any other excuse you can think of. I love turning them and I love selling them but there are a lot more variables than I could have ever imagined.


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## Phillikl (Dec 26, 2012)

I believe after the risk-cost analysis; the amount it going to cost to either a) resod my lawn or b) pave the path between shop and house...  In the hole a way bunch.  But seeing my wife smile everytime I bring her something new... Priceless!


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## Draconias (Dec 27, 2012)

I guess what has held me back is all of the extra costs associted with moving from a hobby to a business.  For example:

1)  Do you tell your insurance agent that you are now using your shop as a business and you now need addition insurance.

2) Do you go out and get a business license and a tax accountant to take care of all of the taxes you now have to deal with?

Are there any additional head aches that I am missing?  I enjoy making the pens and find it simply easier to give most of them away rather than moving up to selling them and tackling the headaches associated with having a busness.


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## Phillikl (Dec 27, 2012)

Draconias said:


> I guess what has held me back is all of the extra costs associted with moving from a hobby to a business.  For example:
> 
> 1)  Do you tell your insurance agent that you are now using your shop as a business and you now need addition insurance.
> 
> ...



Some outstanding points!  I have a bud that just moved from his garage to an actual established building....  Unfortunately he secured a 12 month lease, BEFORE checking on the tax increases, OSHA goodies, insurances, 4 other NEW taxes, and on and on and on....  Guess i should go check on him, make sure he hasn't pulled all of his hair out yet!


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