# Harsh critque please!



## BradG

Hi guys
As mentioned ive recently aquired a Canon EOS300D and picked up a book on photography im picking my way through.

Would you mind taking a look at this picture and picking it apart? id like to hear everything thats wrong with it and what you would have done differently personally if you wouldnt mind sharing your thoughts?

I guess this picture is a good representation of a complete amateur getting his hands on a dslr 

I should mention the lens i am using is a 78-215mm kodak auto focusing

Ive uploaded a high resolution here for a closer look
http://penchemistry.co.uk/upload.jpg

Edit: .. Ooh . just noticed the attached picture has gone all blurry which i guess is down to the sites compression? either way.. the link above should be clearer


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## jyreene

A few things I notice are:
1. The blurry background really takes away from the overall photo. Having a background closer and in focus, or just plain would distract less.
2. The stand makes those very nice custom made pens look a lot cheaper. I'm sure you could either find something or even make something better to show off your pens, either something that is nearly invisible or complements the pens.
3. The overall photo looks slanted or tilted. When staring at it my eyes are drawn left and down to the stone and the fact it's crooked in the photo.
4. The slanted pen in the middle leaning against the other pen seems sort of haphazardly thrown in as an afterthought.
5. I don't own one of those pens or have any idea how to make them!

It's still a pretty good photo but those are the things I notice when I stare at the picture.


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## ossaguy

Your pens are simply amazing....who cares about the picture!

 Thanks for sharing them,there is nothing else out there like them.



Steve


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## BradG

Thanks for commenting its good tohave things pointed out you just didnt realise or overlook. picked up some nice tips from your post. The other pen just thrown in was intentional. as i took this picture to be posted on facebook with the caption "Need a bigger pen stand" though i agree making something more suitable is a good call.


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## BradG

ossaguy said:


> Your pens are simply amazing....who cares about the picture!
> 
> Thanks for sharing them,there is nothing else out there like them.
> 
> 
> 
> Steve


 
Thanks Steve :wink: Though ive always been captivated with the quality of a crisp photo. My dad's a photographer, though lives far away. so naturally its something id like to master over time too.


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## plantman

Fantastic pens Brad, and thats an undersatement. I agree with Ty on his points. I would also loose the stone base and use a plain white bachground and base. Another thing you might want to do, is post a single pen at a time with 3-4 views includeing closed, open, standing, and lying flat, or standing with front, back, and side views. Your pens are so interesting I would rather see one at a time with more views and comments on how you did them. When you have an auto focus and a busy background and base, the camera doesn't know what you want to be your focal point or what color to choose as the main subject. I'm no expert on photo taking, so a good program is needed to correct anything your not happy with. You can make a clear acrylic pen holder dissapeer and the pen looks like it is floating in thin air. There is an excellent tutoral on lighting your photos in the library on this site also. Also check out this web site. tabletopstudio.com/howto. Everything you want to know about taking photos is there!!! Keep them comming!!! Jim S


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## monophoto

Ty's comments are very appropriate, especially the comments about the confusing background and the cheesy stand.

If you are trying to use photos to sell pens, you will be more successful if each pen is photographed individually.   This is for two reasons.  First, if you photograph each pen individually, you can get closer and fill the image frame with that one pen, thereby showing better detail.  Also, many potential buyers will be confused by an extensive collection, and confusion leads to indecision.  If you focus on individual pens, it will be easier for buyers to make a decision.

I suspect that you hand-held your camera.  I've done that with some of my turned stuff even through I know its wrong and even though I own four tripods.  Put your camera on a tripod, use a cable release, line the camera up so that the pen is displayed as well as possible, and make sure that there are no elements that create the impression of unbalance, and the set the automation on your camera for maximum depth of field (ie, use the smallest aperture setting possible - which is why you need the tripod and cable release because a small aperture setting generally will drive your shutter speed longer).  Experiment with lighting - I believe that natural lighting is better than artificial, but you can enhance lighting by strategic use of reflectors. Focus carefully, and make several exposures before editing the images to choose the best.


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## BradG

Brilliant references. Thanks Jim. Ive been battling with lihgting as i have a four tube light which is just too intense and throws the white balance right off, so im looking into buying some studio lighting. something on the larger size what i could use for other uses such as portrait photos etc so considering the diffusing umbrellas and flashes. I thought id try some of that brilliant sunshine today to avoid the underexposed feeling i have been getting. 

Does anyone have any input on the lens? I cant get the camera close to the object because of the scope on it, and curious if his would have a detrimental effect on the quality of the pictures?


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## Kretzky

Great Pens Brad!
Sorry but don't agree with the background thing. The background in a pic like that _should_ be out of focus (small depth of field, wide aperture) the pens are the important things NOT the background. The background however should be less 'fussy' & lighter imo (it does, in your shot, detract from the pens). Try a bit more contrast between pens & background.
Try to 'drape' a background cloth (under & behind) so there is no 'join'
Lighting for me is a little dark try experimenting but watch for distracting shadows. 
The stand? not so keen as stated, you could find much better props. As sated previously the stand looks to be leaning (I'm sure it's not) watch your 'horizons' keep them level. (Unless you're trying to be all arsty fartsy :wink: The positioning of the stand on the stone base creats too many angles & again distracts from the main subject matter.
Pens of that quality should imo be photographed individually, they are not Asda (Wally-world) pens, don't photograph them as such. I also think the middle leaning pen detracts from that group. Looks like there wasn't room so it was just "stuck in" where you could fit it.
Personally I dislike autofocus when doing something like this, I much prefer manual (but maybe that's just me).
Brad I hope you don't mind so many comments, they are intended to help, your pens really deserve top notch photographs.
Does your camera have a white balance setting that can be altered for whatever type of lighting you're using? May be cheaper than buying a whole set of lights.


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## BradG

monophoto said:


> Ty's comments are very appropriate, especially the comments about the confusing background and the cheesy stand.
> 
> If you are trying to use photos to sell pens, you will be more successful if each pen is photographed individually. This is for two reasons. First, if you photograph each pen individually, you can get closer and fill the image frame with that one pen, thereby showing better detail. Also, many potential buyers will be confused by an extensive collection, and confusion leads to indecision. If you focus on individual pens, it will be easier for buyers to make a decision.
> 
> I suspect that you hand-held your camera. I've done that with some of my turned stuff even through I know its wrong and even though I own four tripods. Put your camera on a tripod, use a cable release, line the camera up so that the pen is displayed as well as possible, and make sure that there are no elements that create the impression of unbalance, and the set the automation on your camera for maximum depth of field (ie, use the smallest aperture setting possible - which is why you need the tripod and cable release because a small aperture setting generally will drive your shutter speed longer). Experiment with lighting - I believe that natural lighting is better than artificial, but you can enhance lighting by strategic use of reflectors. Focus carefully, and make several exposures before editing the images to choose the best.


 
Thanks for the input. This was more of a collective shot. Itake closeups of hem individually as they are made, but on this occasion decided to take a pic of the set.

This is with a tripod, though i should invest in a more sturdy one as the breeze here was having an effect. i used the timer so my mits were not all over it making it shake like an earthquake.


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## thewishman

I had no idea of the depth or your etching - WOW!

Looking at the higher res pic, it seems like none of the pens are in focus. For a group shot, it would not be possible for each to be perfectly in focus, but where is the focal point?


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## mikespenturningz

I think you did a good job with depth of field on that shot bring your pens out of the background but as other said it is a little busy. Great job on the pens but you already know that as I have told you when you posted the pens. Of course when you ask for harsh critique I am surprised some of the jokers here(which I am one) didn't really let you have it!:biggrin::biggrin:


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## Haynie

It would help to know the purpose of the photograph.

There are a lot of product photography videos on youtube and they will help along side the book.

As for the image the problem I have is not the back ground or the stand.  It is the combination of the background and the stand.  If it were one or the other. the image would be more successful.  I have never heard canon lenses being toughted for their bokeh (the out of focus part of the background).  Out of focus backgrounds are an important image design component. It will easily destroy a photograph.
Checkout this book
Designing a Photograph: Visual Techniques for Making your Photographs Work: Bill Smith: 9780817437787: Amazon.com: Books
I am also a big fan of Freemen Patterson and this book has helped me a lot
Amazon.com: Photography and the Art of Seeing: A Visual Perception Workshop for Film and Digital Photography (9781554079803): Freeman Patterson: Books

Another option is to type in macro bug images into google and look at them.  The more successful images have a very well designed out of focus area.


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## BradG

Kretzky said:


> Great Pens Brad!
> Sorry but don't agree with the background thing. The background in a pic like that _should_ be out of focus (small depth of field, wide aperture) the pens are the important things NOT the background. The background however should be less 'fussy' & lighter imo (it does, in your shot, detract from the pens). Try a bit more contrast between pens & background.
> Try to 'drape' a background cloth (under & behind) so there is no 'join'
> Lighting for me is a little dark try experimenting but watch for distracting shadows.
> The stand? not so keen as stated, you could find much better props. As sated previously the stand looks to be leaning (I'm sure it's not) watch your 'horizons' keep them level. (Unless you're trying to be all arsty fartsy :wink: The positioning of the stand on the stone base creats too many angles & again distracts from the main subject matter.
> Pens of that quality should imo be photographed individually, they are not Asda (Wally-world) pens, don't photograph them as such. I also think the middle leaning pen detracts from that group. Looks like there wasn't room so it was just "stuck in" where you could fit it.
> Personally I dislike autofocus when doing something like this, I much prefer manual (but maybe that's just me).
> Brad I hope you don't mind so many comments, they are intended to help, your pens really deserve top notch photographs.
> Does your camera have a white balance setting that can be altered for whatever type of lighting you're using? May be cheaper than buying a whole set of lights.


 
No i dont mind all the comments at all. Hence the title harsh critique wanted, I find this way of learning much more constructive.

I think i need to practice with the manual focus. I tried it and what i thought were sharp were quite abysmal when i loaded them onto the PC.
It does have settings for the white balance but im yet to get my head around using them. I understand the principles of it but i just need to put it into practice


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## PaulDoug

Just got to say, when I first opened the picture, my eyes went to the background and tried to focus it.  Then I saw the pens (which are awesome, by the way).


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## mikespenturningz

Who ever really know what settings to use. I was getting good photos and hit some button and now they are coming out dark. I hate it when that happens.


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## BradG

thewishman said:


> I had no idea of the depth or your etching - WOW!
> 
> Looking at the higher res pic, it seems like none of the pens are in focus. For a group shot, it would not be possible for each to be perfectly in focus, but where is the focal point?


 
I guess i was hoping for all pens to be in a line like that i could get them into focus. the camera has 5 markers on it with a red light inciding if thats the focal point. on this two of the dots were on pens so i went with that


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## BradG

Haynie said:


> It would help to know the purpose of the photograph.
> 
> There are a lot of product photography videos on youtube and they will help along side the book.
> 
> As for the image the problem I have is not the back ground or the stand. It is the combination of the background and the stand. If it were one or the other. the image would be more successful. I have never heard canon lenses being toughted for their bokeh (the out of focus part of the background). Out of focus backgrounds are an important image design component. It will easily destroy a photograph.
> Checkout this book
> Designing a Photograph: Visual Techniques for Making your Photographs Work: Bill Smith: 9780817437787: Amazon.com: Books
> I am also a big fan of Freemen Patterson and this book has helped me a lot
> Amazon.com: Photography and the Art of Seeing: A Visual Perception Workshop for Film and Digital Photography (9781554079803): Freeman Patterson: Books
> 
> Another option is to type in macro bug images into google and look at them. The more successful images have a very well designed out of focus area.


 
The purpose was just to put them al on the stand in the sunline and snap a picture and then try and figure out what i should have done differently. Thanks for the links for the books il besure to check them out


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## Sylvanite

Well, to begin with, the camera focused on the wrong spot (the bottom of the stand)  That put some of the foreground rock in focus while the tops of the pens are out of focus.  If you switch to manual focus, select the correct aperture, and focus about 1/3 the way from front-to-back, your depth-of-field will encompass the entire subject.

The reflections on the pens have a distinct blue cast.  Were you in the shadow of a nearby building when you took the picture?  Instead of shooting in shade, wait for an overcast day to take pen photos outside.  You'll get better color rendition (both tone and saturation) that way.  You can try moving indoors, but artificial lighting takes more practice to get good results.

There are distracting elements in your photo.  The pens themselves are rather smooth and monochromatic whereas the foreground and background are not.  Their color and texture tend to draw the eye away.  A simpler setting would show off the pens better.

If your goal is to make the stand look overfull, then ok.  Otherwise, there are too many subjects in the photo.  I don't know which one to look at.  Unless you have a theme for the group, I'd suggest photographing the pens individually.

Then again, photography as an art form is very subjective, and often as much about breaking the rules as about following them.  Keep experimenting with composition, lighting, perspective, and the mechanics of your camera.  Look for what helps convey your message and what distracts from it.   Remember, what's behind your camera is much more important than what's inside it.

Regards,
Eric


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## BradG

Thanks Eric, much appreciated


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## JohnGreco

Brad- your camera should have come with software for downloading the pictures to your computer. If you have a laptop, install the software there (EOS Utility) and use the usb cable to connect your camera to the laptop. Turn on the camera, open EOS Utility and go to "Camera Settngs/Remote Shooting". You will now be able to shoot tethered. Put the camera on a tripod and you will have TOTAL control of the camera from your laptop. Also, you can zoom in on a specific spot of any part of the pen(s) to be absolutely sure you are fully focused.

I've been shooting tethered and cannot imagine trying to get good shots of my pens without it (laptop screen is MUCH bigger than any camera lcd screen).

Not sure what you are using for post production, but bear in mind any picture you take will need -something- done to it. I use Lightroom, but Photoshop works well, too.

Lighting is the hardest part. Keep shadows out, go for something uniform (unless you are trying to be more artsy in the shot...but if it is for selling the pen you want it evenly lit). You may need to play around with light placement and pen angles to reduce glare, but you'll get it after enough moving things around  GL and have fun!


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## JohnGreco

Oh yea- Also, shoot in RAW mode. It will retain all of the image info so when you make your adjustments, you will have the best quality possible.


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## PenPal

Brad,

Shortly before I married at age 20 a wise neighbour next door said a threepeny pie would in the future cat sixpence this was 1954 later it would turn out to be two shillings with the six kids. His advice stuck with me as I have applied his advice all my life since.

This your picture exemplifies the fact you cannot do justice when you give attention to displaying more than one pen at a time, straitway we feel you desire us or we will anyway concentrate on more than one,give comparisons,get picky in other words lose the plot.

One at a time is good fishing now:
You have incredible etching in the round most remarkable it deserves additional views.
When you use an open aperture as you did the actual depth is very shallow giving less clear detail of the significant work involved.
Most cameras allow you to set or change the aperture even on autofocus try to head for around f12 then vary the settings, some cameras allow auto bracketing of settings.

For a while establish fixed practices noting at least in your mind what to aim for, the best features etc.

Occasional close ups of unique features (all over your pens)

I enclose a few pics my OPEN box with a simple conduit frame mounted in a flat foam board of 50mm thickness that allows me to take pics from any side or aboveish and move the lighting, note the double pieces across the top form a platform that I use for a top light to sit on.

Use a sheet of 11 by 14 inch copy paper tape it wherever,back, side to give what is called an endless background, get artistic if you want most art shops sell selectively coloured  sheets that can be impressive. 

My pics shown are not masterpieces but how I use my 10 minute set up.

Kind regards Peter.


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## jyreene

BradG said:


> Brilliant references. Thanks Jim. Ive been battling with lihgting as i have a four tube light which is just too intense and throws the white balance right off, so im looking into buying some studio lighting. something on the larger size what i could use for other uses such as portrait photos etc so considering the diffusing umbrellas and flashes. I thought id try some of that brilliant sunshine today to avoid the underexposed feeling i have been getting.
> 
> Does anyone have any input on the lens? I cant get the camera close to the object because of the scope on it, and curious if his would have a detrimental effect on the quality of the pictures?



For a lens check out a macro lens. They do have magnifier attachments but they tent to give a fisheye effect at the edges. 

You can always rent a lens and see if it works better before you buy: http://www.borrowlenses.com/

I've read a wired.com article about them and it seems legit. 

Looking forward to the next shots if only because those pens are pretty awesome.


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## jyreene

Of course that link won't help since you are in the United Kingdom.   Try http://www.lensesforhire.co.uk/


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## plantman

Brad; My daughter-in-law, who takes pro wedding photos, says the two biggest mistakes people make when taking photos are. #1 not centering there subjects. Up, down, and side to side as well as level. This can be corrected by using the crop selection. #2 not looking beyound the subject matter to see what is in the background. This you have to correct before taking the photo, or be very PC savy. Everything else, but out of focus, can be corrected with a good PC program. Trust me on this one, I know. Jim S


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## BradG

John,
That sounds fantastic and appeals to my geek side. id have everything computer operated given the chance il be sure to check it out

peter
Thanks so much for taking to the to type all of that it was a pleasure to read.

Ty
I was thinking one of these 15-55mm lens as it feels im half way across the room with my camera at the moment just so i can focus lol


Jim
Thanks for the heads up, i do like to dabble in photoshop.


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## BigShed

As I came to this thread late because I have been travelling (still am) most of what I would have said has already been said.

On the subject of lenses, I would not use a zoom lens for this sort of photography but instead use a fixed focal length macro lens. In my 35mm days my "go to" lens was a Vivitar Series 1 90mm macro lens (sorry I ever sold that lens) which was brilliant.

When I got my Canon 450D digital it came with the 18-55 kit lens, which was OK but not brilliant. I finally decided to get a fixed focal length macro and settled on the 60mm Canon Macro lens.
The reason I settled on this lens over the 100mm Macro is that 60mm roughly translates to 90 mm in 35mm terms and gives a good working distance. The 100mm, whilst also a very good optical performer, forces you further away from your subject, which is an advantage at times in nature photograpy but more limiting in tabletop photography.

The other thing that is really useful is one of the light tents with studio lights. Although flash is good, it is much harder to predict your lighting and any fill with handheld white board or mirror.

There is a website with some excellent tutorials on tabletop product photograpy. I'll see if I can find it and put it up.

I also always use a tripod and switch the AF and stabilising functions off. My Canon 450D has a Live View function and I can magnify the spot I focus on 5x and 10x. Always focus on a spot 1/3 of the way from the front of the subject and use f stop of 11-16. Don't use full auto, use the Aperture Priority mode (AV) and let the camera select the shutter speed (hence the tripod).

Edit:

Found the link http://www.tabletopstudio.com/


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## Sylvanite

One of the more difficult parts of photography, is learning to see what's in the viewfinder.  Our minds tend to edit out the things we don't expect.  How many times have you come across pictures with a telephone pole sticking out of someone's head?  The photographer was so intent on the person, that he didn't see the pole at all.

Shooting tethered really helps with that.  It's much easier to see flaws in composition and lighting on the computer screen than through the viewfinder.  It's also much easier to recognize when they've been fixed.

I saw a distinct improvement in my pen pictures when I first started taking photos tethered.  I got another jump in quality when I bought a camera back that supported live-view and began using it.  Live-view allows me to reposition items, move the camera, change the lighting - and see the difference as I'm doing it.  I can put a gray card in the picture and set the white balance.  I can fine-tune the focus and  preview the depth-of-field.  It's all easier to see on the computer screen.  If you have the ability, give it a try.

I have a number of lenses, including an 85mm portrait lens and a (recently acquired) 60mm macro lens.  Still, however, my preferred lens for most pen photos is a 28-135mm zoom lens.  Distance to the subject controls perspective.  I place the camera to get the perspective I want, and then zoom in to fill the frame.  At times, when I want to shoot from farther away, I'll switch to a 70-300mm zoom.

Some post-processing will always be necessary - especially if you want to take photos to display on the internet.  The more you can do in camera (composition, framing, lighting, exposure, white balance, etc.), however, the better.

I've been thinking about doing a series (like my Photoshop tutorials) on basic photography - camera controls, exposure, perspective, lighting, composition, etcetera.  I've also considered a photo critique, like you've submitted, where people could chime in on what they like and dislike about a picture.  Would that sort of thing interest you?

Regards,
Eric


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## BradG

Well it would interest me Eric, Im all for learning new things, and id rather learn it in our community than venture off into the unknown lol


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## BradG

Hope your travelling is soon over its tiring doing nothing! Travelled home from only london a couple of weeks back and took me a day to get over the train ride lol. Thanks for the insight as to what you use. il be sure to read up on them



BigShed said:


> As I came to this thread late because I have been travelling (still am) most of what I would have said has already been said.
> 
> On the subject of lenses, I would not use a zoom lens for this sort of photography but instead use a fixed focal length macro lens. In my 35mm days my "go to" lens was a Vivitar Series 1 90mm macro lens (sorry I ever sold that lens) which was brilliant.
> 
> When I got my Canon 450D digital it came with the 18-55 kit lens, which was OK but not brilliant. I finally decided to get a fixed focal length macro and settled on the 60mm Canon Macro lens.
> The reason I settled on this lens over the 100mm Macro is that 60mm roughly translates to 90 mm in 35mm terms and gives a good working distance. The 100mm, whilst also a very good optical performer, forces you further away from your subject, which is an advantage at times in nature photograpy but more limiting in tabletop photography.
> 
> The other thing that is really useful is one of the light tents with studio lights. Although flash is good, it is much harder to predict your lighting and any fill with handheld white board or mirror.
> 
> There is a website with some excellent tutorials on tabletop product photograpy. I'll see if I can find it and put it up.
> 
> I also always use a tripod and switch the AF and stabilising functions off. My Canon 450D has a Live View function and I can magnify the spot I focus on 5x and 10x. Always focus on a spot 1/3 of the way from the front of the subject and use f stop of 11-16. Don't use full auto, use the Aperture Priority mode (AV) and let the camera select the shutter speed (hence the tripod).
> 
> Edit:
> 
> Found the link Tabletop Studio - Everything you want to know about product photography


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## 76winger

Brad, I'm late in the game to see your submission, and by the time I've ready through the points everyone has made, I don't have much left to say that hasn't been said. 

So I'll try to contribute some bullet points in the order I noticed them, with most correct measures having already been touched upon.



Loose the stray pen - first and biggest distraction
Straighten out the photo so the pens and display stand are level (since it's obvious this is the main subject, as part of a larger scene this might be fine).
I'm not big on the clear plastic stands due to distracting glare and such, at minimum I'd use black instead.
Focus next comes to mind, it's definitely focused on the closest point. Manually focusing (or forcing auto) on the center of the pens would give more even focus.
Use a smaller aperture setting to ensure you capture the whole of the pens in focus but not so much as to bring the background into focus causing yet another distraction.
On the background, hanging a towel or sheet or something larger enough and of a solid color, while keeping it out of focus using Aperture to control DOF, would help highlight the pens.
Don't use direct sunlight due to harsh shadows it creates, plus it looks like there's overhead branches casting shadows on parts of the pens.
Overall white balance is a little "bluish" which there should be a white balance adjust you can make on the camera to correct.
Those are my thoughts on "this picture". A lot of the advice John and Eric gave toward being creative and highlighting what is your main subject of the photo are good points as you try others.


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## Sawdust46

I should mention I didn't read all the posts but I also prefer the blurred background (depth of field) in the photo.  If this were a photo to sell a pen I think the quality of the pens deserve individual photos.  I also am not a fan of the acrylic pen holders.  The best "pen holders" seem to be things a that are not pen holders at all like stones, rough wood/branches etc.  The other thing I noticed is the glare, it detracts from the appearance of the pens and would best be eliminated.


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## BradG

Dave
Apologies i must have missed your reply

Thanks for taking the time to write that, thats some valuable information, il be sure to experiment with everyones suggestions

What are your thoughts on lenses?


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