# Bad finish



## cwasil (Aug 24, 2005)

I just made my first Gent last night and it turned out real well...except for the finish.  This was one of the better fitting pens I've made as I can barely feel the seams between the wood and the metal components.  All this is for naught because the finish sucks.  I use Behlens woodturners finish on all my slimlines because I haven't found anything else that works for me.  I do get these little swirl marks left but you can barely notice them.  I think since the gent is much larger diameter pen you can see these swirls much more.  End result is this...I need a new finish, at least for large pens.

I've got the sheeps wool roller and got that setup on my lathe but, quite honestly, I can't tell the difference when I'm done.

I've done CA, CA-BLO, some kind of spray on acrylic, Deft & Mylands.  I'm tired of being so meticulous on my turning and sanding only to have my finish screw it up.  I've been reading alot about Enduro lately...does that seem to be the new finish of choice on the boards now.  I'm very disgusted by this, I've made about 150 wood pens over this last year and only had a few that I'd consider good glass finishes.  I'm a believer in "if you can't do it right don't do it at all" and am at my wits end in trying to solve this.  If I can't make the wood look the way I want it to I'm beginning to think I should stick with the plastics...and least Hut's plastic finish works well for me.  Anyway, any help would be appreciated.


----------



## JimGo (Aug 24, 2005)

Chad,
Can you explain the process you used to finish this, including the sanding steps?  That will help get a better feel for wher ethe problems might lie.

On the plus side, it's a REALLY nice pen, and you did a great job with the grain!


----------



## cwasil (Aug 24, 2005)

After turning, I start with 120 (if needed) then 220 & 400.  I then switch over to micromesh and work my way all the way to 12000.  I then use the cloth, purchased from Home Depot, and shake a little Behlens onto it.  I get the lathe turning as fast as I can and I apply the finish to each blank going back and forth with a little pressure until my fingers burn.  That's kind of it for this part.

With buffing, I've got three areas on the roller...brown rouge, white rouge and nothing.  I run the blank perpendicular to the roller hoping to cut down the peaks of the finish.

Lastly is Renaissance wax or TSW just wiped on and off.


----------



## cwasil (Aug 24, 2005)

Forgot...in between the micromesh and Behlens step I wipe the blanks down with BLO while the lathe is spinning as fast as it can go.


----------



## Czarcastic (Aug 24, 2005)

Chad:
Please don't take this the wrong way, but.. what's your hurry?!?
I don't know, but it would seem to me that you are spending all this time being "meticulous" about your turning, and then trying to get a finish on your pen in a few minutes.
"Good" finishes take time.  
I use the Behlens woodturners finish on almost every pen, but only as a sanding sealer and to "pop" the grain. Not as a final coat. Once its cured (a few hours after its "dry") I finish the pens. 
I personally have done everything from lacquer to BLO/CA to wipe-on-poly to Seal-A-Cell/Arm-R-Seal.  But I have found that the best looking finishes (for me, anyway) are the ones that take more time.

A lot of people here like CA or BLO/CA.  Its good looking - when done right  - and long lasting. Not my favorite (looks too much like a plastic film in my opinion), but effective.  

Just take your time.

Right now, my favorite finishes are spray lacquer (4 to 5 coats, a day apart), or a Seal-A-Cell/Arm-R-Seal regimen which can take up to a week, and another week to completely cure.

Other than the initial coat of Behlens, almost all my finishing is done "off-lathe." 

Let me add a caveat to what I say above.  I am not a "production" pen turner.  I do not make pens every day, or several at any given time.  Those who do will probably be able to give you some better advice on finishes that are effective and less time-consuming.


----------



## wayneis (Aug 24, 2005)

I can't speak for anyone else but I use Enduro on every pen that I make, with the finish results that I am getting I am very satisfied with it, and I am very picky about all of my woodworking.  Get yourself a quart of Enduro and some lacqure base sanding sealer and let me know if you have any questions.

Wayne


----------



## CPDesigns (Aug 24, 2005)

Are you sanding lengthwise with the lathe off between grits? Given that the peaks seem to all be concentric, that might be the problem. I usually start with 220 with the lathe on, turn it off, sand lengthwise to get out the concentric scratches; and repeat up to 600 grit. I wipe with a tack cloth between each grit to prevent clogging. After the 600 grit I continue down the grits to 2000 for acrylics and Corian, but with wood I skip to the EEE. After sanding I apply a little Shellawax EEE and buff. For a semi-gloss finish I just leave it at this point. Most of the time I use Hut Crystal Coat (which I'm not as happy with, but I might as well use up the bottle...) after the EEE or buff with Liberon (the harder brown wax stick). For serious gloss I've used CA a couple of times. I don't really care for the CA finish, though. I don't like the "plastic-y" feel. I'd rather have less gloss and more wood feel.

I bet if you disassemble, sand back down length wise starting at 400 grit and move back up you'll get the peaks out. For buffing, I usually buff at about a 45 degree angle and alternate back and forth. I use a roller with a 1 1/4" nap for most pens and a 3/4" nap for the smaller slimlines.

Hope there's something useful in here! []


----------



## JimGo (Aug 24, 2005)

Chad,
Steven and Wayne have given you some excellent advice.  The way I see it, finishing is the most important part of my pen making, so I try to take my time with that process.  I still haven't progressed to the multi-day finishes, like Steven and Wayne, but I'm getting close to wanting to try them.  As a result, though, I can't speak to Enduro, Myland's, or Behlen's - I've only done dip lacquer and CA/BLO.  A CA/BLO finish is my favorite, as I'm able to get good results and can evaluate the finish shortly after it is applied.  With my CA finishes, I don't get a "deep" finish like you get with Enduro or lacquer, but I do get a nice shine while the wood still retains that wood feel.  

The key that I've found with oily woods like Cocobolo is to wipe them with DNA before applying the finish.  The oils in the wood make it difficult for the finish to adhere properly, and you wind up with splotches, dull spots, unevenness, and the like.  A good DNA wipe-down can go a long way toward solving these problems.

I follow a similar sanding process to you, except I go through 180, 220, 280, 320, and 400 grits before switching to MM.  I also stop the lathe after sanding with each grit, and sand along the length of the barrel to smoothe out any sanding-induced rings, and (when I remember) wipe with DNA before progressing to the next grit.  The DNA wipe gets rid of the sanding debris from the previous step, so that it isn't as likely to come back and induce new scratches.

Best of luck!


----------



## alamocdc (Aug 24, 2005)

Chad, Steven hit it pretty much on the head. Based on my experience (limited as it is), I know of only two finishes that will give you the "glass finish" you seem to desire (at least one that will last). One is lacquer and it takes time... at least one week and preferably two to cure. The other is BLO/CA and it (IMO) leaves the wood feeling like plastic, not wood. But if your goal is a fast, durable (as far as we know) glass shiney finish, then BLO/CA may be what you want to stick with. I prefer my wood pens to feel more like wood. If and when I want a plastic feel, I turn PR, Acrylic or bowling ball and only use the BLO/CA when I have to use a considerable amount of CA on the wood to start with. Just me and what I've found. As has been often stated, your MPG may vary. []


----------



## cwasil (Aug 24, 2005)

I was reading some of the previous threads which lead me to Russ Fairfield's "How to make a pen" article.  I read this a long time ago but apparently forgot some of it.  I'm going to try another cocobolo gent tonight but am going to remember to sand lengthwise in between the grit changes and probably more importantly just use a very little amount of finish.  I'm also going to try and dig up some different toweling.  There are so many kinds of finishes to try I'm going to step back and really try to make this Behlen's stuff work for me.  If not it looks like I'd probably either go back to CA-Blo or try the enduro method.  Man, there are so many products to try.

I'll post tonight with my results with what will probably be my best effort with Behlens.  Thanks for all the help so far.


----------



## MDWine (Aug 24, 2005)

I'll add my 2 cents, which is far more than it is worth, but I really like the Deft spray gloss lacquer (see, JimGo?).  I love the shine it produces.

I stop turning after a go with 220, and sand ONLY lengthwise up to 800 grit, and lately beginning to MM a little too.  Once that is done, I put the blank on a home made mandrel so I can hold it.  I spray 3 coats in 30 minute intervals on night one, then repeat 3 more coats on night two.  Then I let the blank cure for at least a week... at least a week (bears repeating).

After it cures for a week, I start with MM lowest to highest, and the finish is really pretty... I love it.  I really enjoy watching the finish get smoother and smoother, and more transparent as I approach the 12000MM.


----------



## MDWine (Aug 24, 2005)

... some time soon I'm going to try Wayne's Enduo method, tho.... []


----------



## cwasil (Aug 24, 2005)

Well, I just got done with a cocobolo with Behlens and an afzelia burl with Mylands friction finish.  I think they both look alright.  I know the afzelia looks like it has lots of void but that was kind of intentional.  I kind of like the way they look.

I tried following Russ's directions by using as little finish as possible and I think that did the trick.  I must have been using way too much before.  I also chucked the cloth and was using some heavy duty paper towels from work.  I forgot to sand lengthwise so thanks, CPDesigns, for refreshing my memory.

What do you guys think of the afzelia one?  I like the voids in this kind of wood so I fill most of them but always leave a few alone...kind of gives it a rustic look.  Do any of you do anything like this.  Thanks again.





<br />



<br />


----------



## JimGo (Aug 24, 2005)

Yes, I REALLY like the Afzalia.  VERY nice!


----------



## wayneis (Aug 25, 2005)

I either fill in the voids or cut and sand down more.  To my eye it looks unfinished, but thats just me.  You and your customers are whats important to you.

wAYNE


----------



## Dario (Aug 25, 2005)

Chad,

I personally don't like leaving too much void(s).  I sometimes leave grain voids on some pens like your cocobolo above.  I agree though that if that is what you and your customer wants, go for it.

For finish I am using Tung oil (Minwax with 25% pure Tung oil added to it) right now and I like it.  It won't give you the super shine of CA or friction polish but the wood looks much better IMHO...and my test pen is holding up well from my intentional "abuse".

I have a few pens I posted finished that way the past week...check them out if you want to see what I mean.

I will start experimenting with spray lacquer soon and compare that with Tung oil.

Maybe it is just me but I am a bit ashamed when I see my pens (either sold or given away last year) that I finished with Myland FP.  The owners say they like it still but I see different.  That is why I stopped using it.  The oily super hard woods (like cocobolo, bocote, etc.) are holding okay even with FP finish.  I think they will be okay even without a finish to begin with though [].


----------



## alamocdc (Aug 25, 2005)

Chad, the finish on the blanks look much better. Now on to your question. I'm pretty much in line with what Dario said. Woods with naturally open grain like coco and figured oak I will sometimes leave a bit open. Burls are a different story. I personally think they look better with all voids filled if I can. Occasionally I'll miss a small one or two, but...


----------



## jbyrd24 (Aug 25, 2005)

I've used the Behlens Woodturners finish quite abit and was having
the same problems your are. What you need to do is use very little at a time. Two drops on a paper towel will suffice. Very lightly apply to one blank at a time working side to side.....(Again, I'll mention very lightly and at a slow lathe speed.(Just enough to wet the blank) Dont' try to burn it in..Only smooth it out... Wait about an hour and apply another few drops. Let sit for at least 24 hours. Then apply a good topcoat. I have found that the Behlens doesn't hold up quite as well as some finishes, but this method has worked well for me. Good luck[]


----------



## woodscavenger (Aug 25, 2005)

I would do some void filling with CA and sawdust from your blank. MHO.  But it does look better.


----------



## loglugger (Aug 25, 2005)

I am with Bryan on this one.
Robert Lee


----------



## cwasil (Aug 26, 2005)

If this many experienced folks say leaving small voids open isn't the way to go...I'm probably doing a stupid thing then.  I'll clean it up this evening and put on CA-BLO (if I remember how).  If anything this will be a thread on what not to do....[]

I don't think the finishes look terrible but I think I'll pick and choose the woods I put it on.  Overally, I guess it's time to invest some money again to find something that works for me.  I've got some CA and BLO so I'll buy some DNA and go back to that now.  That Deft spray gloss lacquer seems intriguing along with Enduro.  I hate the fact that I won't be able to see a finished pen a couple hours after starting but if I want it to look good I better just resign myself to this fact.  To, hopefully, finish off the thread tonight I'll post the final versions of the afzelia burl with the voids filled and a CA-BLO finish.  Thanks again.


----------



## cwasil (Sep 9, 2005)

I sprayed the afzelia with 6 coats of Deft over the course of two days and then let it cure for 8 days.  No luck.  I started sanding and by the time I got to 6000 grit MM the finish was kind of smearing like it wasn't cured yet.  

On another front I got my oversized blanks from Dario and did the below three with Shellawax.  I like it alot.  It may not be the most durable of finishes but it gives me what I want...a relatively glossy finish yet it still feels like wood.

Maybe if Dario is around he can help me what the woods are.  I forgot to write down the names before I turned them.  I believe the top is Myrtlewood Burl, second is Mesquite Burl and the bottom is a mystery but I love to know.  Anyone?  Thanks




<br />



<br />


----------



## alamocdc (Sep 10, 2005)

Chad, I never sand or MM lacquer, even if it's cured for months. You should only need to buff it out with a relatively mild finishing compound like that used on autos. Even rubbing compound can be too agressive for lacquer unless you have many coats and the job really looked bad... like a lot of orange peel, etc. Meguires #8, or the Turtle brand with the green label (it's white) should be all you need.

These look good! I think you got the first one right and the second is definitely Mesquite, but I'm not sure about the last one. It almost looks likt some Ash burl I got from him, but I'm not sure.


----------



## cwasil (Sep 10, 2005)

Thanks Bill for the info.  For some reason I thought I had to clean up the Deft and level it out by running it through the grits.  I'll try this again on my poor afzelia blank...I've re-done that unfortunate blank about 5 times now.  So lets see...

1.)MM blank to 12000
2.)Spray Deft Gloss three times (1/2 hr in-between coats) on Day 1
3.)Spray Deft Gloss three times (1/2 hr in-between coats) on Day 2
4.)Cure for at least one week
5.)Lightly buff with specialty car wax...is white tripoli too agressive?

Thanks again.


----------



## alamocdc (Sep 10, 2005)

Chad, tripoli will probably be too aggressive. You can get what you need at any auto parts store for around $2. Don't use car wax and even rubbing compound is too agressive. I use polishing compound. It has a much finer abrasive than rubbing compound.


----------



## MDWine (Sep 12, 2005)

I have sanded through lacquer, on one of my first, but since then I've gotten glass like finishes with the DEFT, and MicroMesh.

The key is the cure, IMHO.  Weather/temp/humidity and such must be considered, as the lacquer has to cure very well.  Occasionally after 7 days of cure, I can still get small "noodles" (like a pencil eraser noodle on paper) when sanding, which tells me to use a lighter touch.

Finishes are so finicky, each of us must discover how/what/when/why things work for each of us, and we're all different.  I love the look of the MM'd lacquer.  I hate the time it takes, but the trade off is worth it.  As I mentioned before, I have the Enduro, and will definitely try it sooner or later, but I've learned to move slowly and cautiously.

I'd like to have a faster finish, but I'll settle for a "finer" finish.  I hope you find your 'perfect' finish, I think many of us are still searching!! [][]

good luck and keep us posted!


----------



## Old Griz (Sep 12, 2005)

> _Originally posted by cwasil_
> <br />Thanks Bill for the info.  For some reason I thought I had to clean up the Deft and level it out by running it through the grits.  I'll try this again on my poor afzelia blank...I've re-done that unfortunate blank about 5 times now.  So lets see...
> 
> 1.)MM blank to 12000
> ...



I use Turtlewax Polishing Compound (any brand will do)[do not overdo or use too much pressure... a light touch should do it] followed by McGuiers [sp] Anti-Swirl Cream (#7 or 9)... for all my lacquer finishes...


----------



## Gary Max (Sep 12, 2005)

And remember just about the time you buy all this stuff and spend hours working on your system.
Do not forget this way will not work on all woods.
There will be a better way to do it.
Never Fails


----------



## RussFairfield (Sep 13, 2005)

Good advice all, but I suspect there is one missing step in your finishing schedule that can ruin a nice gloss finish faster than any other thing you can or can't do to it. That is not giving the finish sufficient time to cure before buffing or handling the barrels for assembly.  

As fast as it is, even CA is better if it is left for overnight before buffing or handling. Everything else should be allowed to sit for a couple days and a week is better.

If you are in a big hurry, at least wait for the finish to cool to room temperature before buffing or handling to assemble the pen. That will be about an hour. The results won't be as good as waiting longer, but they will be a lot better than buffing and handling a finish that is still warm. 

Don't feel bad about not getting a high gloss from CA/BLO. I can't either. My preference is to apply multiple coats of thin CA without the oil, and then polishing the final coat to a higher gloss with one of the plastics polishes that are sold in the woodturning catalogs. CA is a plastic, and it responds quite well to these polishes. The CA is applied as described on my website as a wood filler. I just use more coats.

My opinion on what to do with the voids may not agree with anyone else. That is that anything we do with the voids will be a compromise between what looks good now and what looks good later because the appearance of the fillings can change after the finish has started to wear and lose its gloss. 

A lot of what we should be doing with fillings has to do with how many and how big they are. However, the best fillings are those that use a binder that is the same hardness as the finish. Anything else will give the fillings a gloss that is different from that of the surrounding wood as the finish starts to dull with wear. 

We always use CA as a filler because it is fast, and not because it is the best thing to do. If the voids are filled with a CA glue, and the finish is a softer wax, shellac, lacquer or varnish, the fillings will appear as shiny spots after the finish has started to wear. There is nothing that looks worse if there are a lot of them, or they are large. The only difference between the softer finishes is how long it takes for that to happen. 

If we use CA as the overall finish on the pen, there will be no difference in the gloss between the fillings and the surrounding surface as the finish wears. I don't use the Enduro or epoxies for finish, but I would expect similar wear patterns in the finish and the fillings.

The other option when using the softer shellac and lacquer finishes is to use no filler. The voids may look bad when the finish is new and glossy, but they can become a part of the patina of the wood as the finish wears to a duller gloss. However, there is always the possibility that the finish in the voids will retain a higher gloss, and they are again accented against the duller gloss of the surrounding wood; and that could be a recommendation for always filling the voids. 

The better option for lacquer and shellac finishes is the one that nobody wants to hear because it takes longer. That is to use the same finish or Elmers glue as the binder for the filler material in smaller voids, and Elmer's glue as the binder in those that are larger. The finish on and in the filler wears at the same rate and will always have a gloss that is similar to that of the surrounding wood. 

For those who prefer the natural polished wood finish, there will be little difference between the fillings made with Elmer's glue and the surrounding wood, whereas the CA fillings will forever be seen as being shinier than the surrounding wood. 

If the voids are left unfilled, the natural polished wood is the only option where the gloss on the pen and in the voids will always be the same. 

A few things to think about when filling and finishing a pen. Pens are different from other turned wood because of the higher wear from handling the finish.


----------



## MDWine (Sep 13, 2005)

cool stuff, Russ! Thanks!


----------

