# Pen Design



## Randy_ (Jun 25, 2007)

Just wondering if I am an old fuddy-duddy or if there are others out there who feel the same way?

I was just looking through a copy of Pen World Magazine and noticed something that reinforced an opinion I have held for a long time which is that a lot of todayâ€™s kits have long metallic grips that overpower the pen body, make them look very unbalanced and unappealing.  A prime example of this is the Emperor Jr.  






There is not a single pen in the March issue of Pen World that has a similar design!!!

My preference is strongly in favor of "classic" designs similar to the El Grande where the grip is not nearly so long and is black rather than a flashy metallic plating.





Please tell me what you think.


----------



## winpooh498 (Jun 25, 2007)

Randy,
I tend to agree to a point.  I like the shiny finish, but I like the metal most of all.  I don't like the El Grande because of all the plastic. If I wanted to have plastic pen parts I could go buy a bic. We just made our first El Grande and I think it feels cheap. Shane took it to work to see how it held up and the fittings broke the first week.  I doubt we will be doing any more of them.
That's just my opinion though.
Have a great day
Dawn


----------



## Texatdurango (Jun 25, 2007)

Fuddy,[]

I see exactly what you are saying and I think it has more to do with the shape of that particular clip than the overall size.  It's shaped more like a zipper handle. flat, thin and wide with no curve to it.

Here is a shot I recently put in another thread showing the caps of three caps, the Majestic, Statesman and Emperor.

Notice that two pens hold to the "classic" curved design while the Emperor os a lot different?

But... to me, it works with the pen.  As stated above, I'd rather see metal on a pen than plastic, or what appears to be plastic.

The clip is no more oversized than the others, it's just shaped different.

On Edit: Image removed because it adds nothing to the discussion []


----------



## RussFairfield (Jun 25, 2007)

Not only do I agree with you, all of my customers agree with you. The kits not only look heavy and unbalanced, they are heavy and poorly balanced. And the newer kits are getting even heavier. Users of a fountain pen do not relate heavy with quality. That is why my pens look nothing like the kit.


----------



## gerryr (Jun 25, 2007)

Randy is talking about clips, he's talking about the section, the part you actually grip when writing.

I agree that the shorter section is more attractive, but there are always a lot of trade-offs in designing anything.  If the Baron/Jr. Gent/Statesman/Emperor had a shorter section, then the pen body would need to be longer and the cap would need to be shorter.  But, I'm not sure those pens would be comfortable with a significantly shorter section.


----------



## GoodTurns (Jun 25, 2007)

by no means am I an expert, however, I prefer the metals to the plastic ends.  I think the plastic can cheapen the pen while the metals enhance it.  I will agree that you can have too much of a good thing and end up overpowering the wood, but that is part of what I enjoy when making a pen.  I will often turn 2 or 3 blanks until I am happy with the kit/wood combo.  Sometimes when you get the kit assembled, what you thought would be a great pen combo just looks terrible!  

Big part of penturning is the multitude of options we have to work with and the end results of those choices will almost always appeal to someone!


----------



## pilot1022 (Jun 25, 2007)

Randy I want to show the wood on the pens I make, so I choose the kits that will highlight that part of the pen. To me the classics are the way I go. I don't want to compete with shiny metal or plastic. 
just my 2cents thanks 
Tom


----------



## Randy_ (Jun 25, 2007)

George:

Put your glasses on......you misread my original comment!![]

I am talking about the "GRIP," not the clip!!  The part of the pen just above the nib.....technically called the section as Gerry pointed out.


----------



## GaryMGg (Jun 25, 2007)

Randy,

I'm a neophyte penmaker, but from what I can tell, it seems I've aligned my thinking with Eagle, Russ, and you as I perceive the sentiment.
To me, a kit should be something that allows me to build a custom crafted object wherein my work is what stands out. The kit should disappear into the background because of what's been made.

I love what Stephen (Skiprat) does; kits disappear on his pens.
Kits definitely disappear on Eagle's work and on what I've seen Russ post.
I need to learn to make the kits fade away on my work.
I guess I'd also like to see some of your work -- what'cha hidin'? [}][] []

Gary


----------



## Randy_ (Jun 25, 2007)

> _Originally posted by GaryMGg_
> <br />.....I guess I'd also like to see some of your work -- what'cha hidin'? [}][] []



I'm a very average pencrafter doing very average work.  You've already seen the kind of pens I do hundreds of times here on IAP.  If I ever do something of particular note I will be sure to post it; but otherwise I don't see any point in wasting my time or yours posting stuff everyone has seen before.[^]


----------



## GaryMGg (Jun 25, 2007)

Randy,

Fair enough -- me too. I'm just too new to restrain myself []

Gary


----------



## wood-of-1kind (Jun 25, 2007)

> _but otherwise I don't see any point in wasting my time or yours posting stuff everyone has seen before.[^][/font=Comic Sans MS][/size=3][/teal]
> _


_

Randy, thank you from all of us 'just average' 'everyday penmakers' for allowing us so much more album space due to your unselfishness not to post your pics[]

-Peter-_


----------



## JimGo (Jun 25, 2007)

Randy,
I disagree.  I guess I have long fingers or something - the short grip parts cause the pen to rub against my thumb and index finger in weird places that causes irritation some times.  So I generally like the longer grips.  My favorite is still the Statesman/Gent - that's the most comfortable size and shape by far for me.


----------



## Texatdurango (Jun 25, 2007)

> _Originally posted by Randy__
> <br />[teal]George:
> 
> Put your glasses on......you misread my original comment!![]
> ...


Man, do I feel like a dumbass![]

Now that I know what you're talking about, I agree.  On some of the pens, there is as much metal "Nib area" showing as wood.  That's one reason I like the closed end pens now that I've made a few.

When I have time to learn how to hide the clip, I'll have more double closed end pens thus showing more wood.

Good to see I'm not the only average-joe turner around here []

George


----------



## Randy_ (Jun 25, 2007)

> _Originally posted by JimGo_
> <br />Randy,
> I disagree.....



Jim: As your wife might say, "You can't disagree with me!!"  That is not an option!! The question was an either/or question.  Either you agree that I am a fuddy-duddy or you agree that the "classic" design of the section is more pleasing than the "long" design.  Don't try to confuse me.  None of this tricky lawyer stuff!![]

I think a bunch of people have somewhat misunderstood my question and what I'm trying to get at.  You were talking about how the pens feels in your hand, Dawn got off onto a discussion of plastic parts and George was commenting on clips.

Perhaps I didn't make my self as clear as I should have; but all I am interested in is which section design <b>looks better to you</b>....the one with the traditional shorter, thicker design like the El Grande (and others) or the longer, thin, metallic section of the Jr. Emp. (and others) I don't care how they feel, what they are made of or opinions on specific kits.  Just asking which section design , generally, makes a more attractive kit in your opinion.


----------



## Texatdurango (Jun 25, 2007)

> _Originally posted by Randy__
> .....Perhaps I didn't make my self as clear as I should have [/font=Comic Sans MS][/size=3][/teal]


It's your Texas drawl, a lot of folks have trouble with it!

So, now that we understand, can we agree with you and STILL think you're a Fuddy Duddy? []


----------



## Randy_ (Jun 25, 2007)

> _Originally posted by Texatdurango_
> <br />.....Now that I know what you're talking about, I agree.  On some of the pens, there is as much metal "Nib area" showing as wood.  That's one reason I like the closed end pens now that I've made a few.....



Agreed, George.  I don't care for all of the hardware hanging off of the butt end of many pen kits either.  I think I will probably be launching off into the realm of closed end pens, myself, pretty soon.  Sadly, I like pens that post so there is going to be a little internal conflict there.  I suspect I will just have to change my thinking about non-posting pens.[:0]


----------



## ashaw (Jun 25, 2007)

I have to agree with you. Even though the newer kits look great they are heavy.   Like russ I wish the kit companies only supplied the basics.  The clip and threads let us do everything else.  I know I am starting to get away from just using the kits verbatim.  I hope in the next couple of months I will have my first proto-type.  Until then I am still using the kits because of sales orders.


----------



## Randy_ (Jun 25, 2007)

> _Originally posted by Texatdurango_
> <br />It's your Texas drawl, a lot of folks have trouble with it!



Hell, George.  I'm still having trouble with it, myself!!  People down here think I still sound like a damn Yankee even though I've been living in Texas forever.  And when I visit relatives back East, they can't understand me and say I sound like a Johnny Reb!![]




> _Originally posted by Texatdurango_
> <br />So, now that we understand, can we agree with you and STILL think you're a Fuddy Duddy? []



That's totally permissible.  A bunch of folks have so voted. already.  I know this will shock you; but that is not the worst thing I have ever been called and doesn't  even include the thoughts of my ex-wife!![]


----------



## bob393 (Jul 5, 2007)

I totaly agree. Which is why the churchill is one of my favorits.


----------



## Firefyter-emt (Jul 5, 2007)

I vote for a more traditional style myself. I really like the one on the Churchill/El-Grande the best, but I do kinda like the one on the Gent as well, in fact to be honest, I recently picked up that "mother earth" Gent I made a while back because it was not selling and I wanted to try the pen out myself, well... I think I like the nib holder the best, not so much for the chrome, but for the metal threads. I very much dislike the "taper" like the Jr. Gent has though, there is no "feel" for the pen...


----------



## IPD_Mrs (Jul 5, 2007)

Being fairly new to all of this, let me give you a little different newbie view.....

The clip, band and top of the Emperor are very rich looking.  The grip is WAY too much metal and detracts from almost anything you put with it.  I did see one the other day that was a home brew poly with buffalo horn and sprite can that worked well with all of the silver metal, but it is one of the few.  

I like the El Grande but do not like the plastic grip as it makes it look cheap.  I would love to find a happy medium between the two.  

The Churhill does not fit that criteria for me as it has too much plastic and the round top looks too much like the cheap round top kits.  

The Baron is a lot like the Emperor as the grip has too much metal and the end where the cap goes when in use has way to much metal as well.  

What would really be nice is if the manufacturers of the El Grande would offer an upgrade option so that more of the black platic was switched to the plated metals.


----------



## alamocdc (Jul 6, 2007)

I didn't vote because I kinda agree and kinda don't. I agree that the El Grande and Ligero styles look best, but I also think this applies to the full sized Gents and Statesman in both rollers and fountains. The added girth makes them look and feel more proportionate. IIRC, this also applies to the Emperor, Lotus, Imperial and Majestic. But I'm not particularly fond of the thinner nib assemblies of the Baron, Jr. anything, etc. I also agree that these "higher end" pens might look best with more barrel material and less glitz, but the cost prevents me from abandoning this material. I think the answer to this (if one is similarly disposed) is to avoid them and stick with the more modest Gent, allowing one to create modified closed ends, etc. w/out sacrificing unnecessary funds for the glitzy end caps and clips. By contrast, many of the high dollar name brand foutains use plastic nib assemblies quite similar to those of the El Grande styled pens and they don't appear cheap (at least to me). So a well made modification to these pens should look equally nice, but one has to watch weight distribution to keep the modified version balanced. So which of the voting categories does this put me in?


----------



## Randy_ (Jul 6, 2007)

> _Originally posted by alamocdc_
> <br />.....many of the high dollar name brand foutains use plastic nib assemblies quite similar to those of the El Grande styled pens and they don't appear cheap (at least to me).....



An excellent point and one I was going to make in my next comment.  Glad to see that there are others who agree.  Take a look in the Pen World Magazine at the pictures of the pens the rich folks buy and you will see plenty of pens with "plastic" components.  Don't think anyone is calling those pens "cheap."


----------



## EeyorIs21 (Jul 12, 2007)

Your question is about the looks of the grip, so I will try to limit my answers to just that aspect.

I like them both, but it has to complement the rest of the pen (design). I think there should be a visual aesthetic to the look of a pen, this does not mean symmetrical.

I will also say that kits with longer grips leave less of the pen to be crafted by the artist/turner, and if you are going to spend all your money on pens with longer grips why not save some money and buy store bought pens, you'll get more, rather than one-of-a-kind originals like we make.

To answer the other half of the question, not a fuddy-duddy. Youâ€™re only as old as you feel.

Regarding other comments in this string.

 â€œcheapâ€ because of use of plastic: I donâ€™t care what it is made of as long as it feels and looks good and is comfortable to use. If you are dying to own a BIC and it is the last one on Earth you better believe whoever is selling it will get a pretty penny for it.

Kit companies supplying basics: We all had to start somewhere. I would totally support any company that wanted to offer BOTH a full kit and â€œjust the basicsâ€, but if your ONLY option is a kit with â€œjust the basicsâ€ it may lose itâ€™s appeal to those unskilled folks who are seeking to turn their first pen. I think advanced pen turners would really eat it up though. That simple kit 1 day in woodshop is what got me interested.


----------



## cdcarter (Aug 10, 2007)

***OPINION CHANGE ALERT****
In my original reply (below), I anticipated that I would not much like the Churchill, but I got it done, and darned if it isn't one of the prettiest, best-feeling pens I've ever turned. The words below are officially eaten. I think I like the Churchill better than the Statesman/Gentleman.

****


One of my favorites is the Gentleman. OTOH, the Majestic is just way overdone, IMO. For me, it's not just about the wood, but about the totality of the final project. I don't like plastic. I'm turning some Churchills this weekend but not looking forward to it. I think the balance of the Gentlemen/Statesman is wonderful, and they are a joy to write with.


----------



## Narwhale (Aug 11, 2007)

Have you "like the el Grande but dislike the plastic" people tied the Robusta/Havana/Gentleman pens?
They are about the same size being just slightly larger.  The nib holder is black powdercoated (that's waht it looks like) brass.  the nibes are nice and feel good.
Think theses two similar kits are going to be a staple for me.
Rich S.


----------



## ctwxlvr (Aug 12, 2007)

I just made one of the Jr Statesmen pens and hate it! It looks cheap and like it is made out of chrome and brass not Plat and gold. granted the El Grande and Churchill have a lot of black plastic but they look a lot better than the Jr Statsmen.


----------



## BigRob777 (Aug 23, 2007)

I'm not into the expensive kits yet, but I prefer metalic over black.  If it were wood, that would look even better, but of course, it would get more dark patina in the wood.
Rob


----------

