# A new pen design



## CREID (Jan 11, 2017)

https://www.facebook.com/dailydot/videos/1314804561923861/


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## jttheclockman (Jan 11, 2017)

How long will it take for PSI to have a kit available. Get in line people.


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## CREID (Jan 11, 2017)

jttheclockman said:


> How long will it take for PSI to have a kit available. Get in line people.



Maybe we should email them. :biggrin:


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## More4dan (Jan 11, 2017)

Take my money!!!


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## jttheclockman (Jan 11, 2017)

CREID said:


> jttheclockman said:
> 
> 
> > How long will it take for PSI to have a kit available. Get in line people.
> ...



No need to. They are here:biggrin: It will be read by tomorrow. (I did get your shot though)


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## stonepecker (Jan 11, 2017)

I have two autistic children that would go wild with these pens.
Sadly, they would never get anything done.

Very neat idea.


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## CREID (Jan 11, 2017)

jttheclockman said:


> CREID said:
> 
> 
> > jttheclockman said:
> ...



Unintentional shot that hit the bullseye completely by accident. :biggrin:


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## Marnat3 (Jan 12, 2017)

I will take a couple. Where are they sold?


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## Herb G (Jan 12, 2017)

What's it look like? I don't do Facebook.


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## Skie_M (Jan 12, 2017)

Herb G said:


> What's it look like? I don't do Facebook.



You know those flex shaft attachments for a dremel?

It looks a lot like one of those, cept it's got 2 magnetic rare earth spheres that connect the "clip" to the pen at both ends ...  The "clip" itself is also another flex shaft bit.

The majority of the pen is a titanium alloy steel, and is very springy.  They say it's made of Titanium, Steel, and Magnets. It also attracts magnets, so the clip sticks to the pen fairly strongly, but I didn't see any part of the video where the magnet wouldn't stick to the pen, so I'm sure that pure titanium isn't involved.  You can detatch one (both magnets can detach, of course) of the magnets from the pen and hold it by the clip, swinging the pen around ... you can hold the pen and twirl the clip around it in circles ...  Oh, and the ink refill in it is, of course, flexible as well!


Essentially, this is a toy that would drive cats and catlike personalities absolutely up the wall, across the ceiling, and right round the twist in your sewer pipes, mate.   Especially if you take it away.  Anybody who is ADHD may actually commit homicide to get theirs back from you, if they can figure out how to get past the cats clawing your pants off and the catlike personalities busy tearing out your eyes ...


Good luck.

[yt]ElXa83mrn9E&feature=youtu.be[/yt]


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## jttheclockman (Jan 12, 2017)

I wonder if the pen comes with a warning for those that have pace makers or if this even is a concern due to the magnets. I often wondered about the Zen


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## edstreet (Jan 12, 2017)

The magnet and pacemakers is bogus and an urban legend. I dare anyone to prove to me, from the pacemaker manufacture, where his is a concern.


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## Smitty37 (Jan 13, 2017)

edstreet said:


> The magnet and pacemakers is bogus and an urban legend. I dare anyone to prove to me, from the pacemaker manufacture, where his is a concern.


 Check the precautions given at the Boston Scientific (a major manufacturer of pacemakers) and you will find that some of the pacemakers warn about electric or Magnetic Interference.  Specifically their ALTRUA family of pacemakers says.  Advise patients to avoid sources of electric or magnetic interference  (EMI). If the pacemaker inhibits or reverts to asynchronous operation at  the programmed pacing rate or at the magnet rate while in the presence  of the EMI, moving away from the source or turning it off will usually  allow the pulse generator to return to its normal mode of operation.
I think for the most part you're right but I do know a couple of folks with pacemakers that were told to stay away from strong magnets .> or = to 10 Gause.  All pacemakers are not the same so I don't think a blanket statement should be used.


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## Smitty37 (Jan 13, 2017)

*Magnets and pacemakers*

    This is from a report by Boston Scientific A CLOSER LOOK September 2013. .As described in the pacemaker and defibrillator instructions for use, exposure to strong magnetic fields greater than 10 Gauss (1mTesla) may alter implanted device function. Exposure to fields of this strength can suspend therapy or cause asynchronous pacing, depending on device programming. The Apple® iPad®2 (and onward) contains embedded magnets along the left edge of the device and on the right side of the front glass; some iPad covers and cases (including the iPad Smart Cover and Smart Case) use magnets to attach the cover to the device. 
Additionally, certain models of headphones and earbuds used with multimedia players contain strong magnets in the earpiece. Because the strength of magnets contained in these products is not always apparent, patients should keep these products at least 6 inches (15.24 cm) away from the implanted device.Accordingly, do not place the iPad (or magnetic accessories) on your chest during use or rest it there while not using it(e.g., while sleeping). If a magnet does interfere with device function, moving the magnet away should restore the device to its original programming and function


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## edstreet (Jan 13, 2017)

Guess they should not live on earth because the chart here shows earth core magnetic field is 25 gauss, hair dryers 20 gauss.  Refrigerator is 50.  Would hate to see what cars produce.  I still have to call bogus on the claim in this context.


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## Smitty37 (Jan 13, 2017)

edstreet said:


> Guess they should not live on earth because the chart here shows earth core magnetic field is 25 gauss, hair dryers 20 gauss.  Refrigerator is 50.  Would hate to see what cars produce.  I still have to call bogus on the claim in this context.


 The posts give you what you asked for Ed.  And they do come from a major manufacturer and I think we need to give their engineers credit for knowing what they're talking about.  They do mention safe distances....


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## edstreet (Jan 13, 2017)

It's still pseudoscientific data given.


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## Smitty37 (Jan 13, 2017)

I am not an expert or even knowledgeable about pacemakers, but I do have several friends and relatives who have them and I do know that at least one of them was warned by the implanting doctor about exposure to magnets. That would have been in the 1990s so things could have changed since then - I'll ask him.


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## edstreet (Jan 13, 2017)

Better yet. CALL a manufacturer and ask them. Info from the 90's is grossly outdated.  Parroting misinformation and outdated info is  what leads to problems.


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## Skie_M (Jan 13, 2017)

Let's just pay to have a pacemaker put in Ed and then stick him in a room with an MRI and see if he still doesn't believe it.   *giggles like a maniac high on sugar*


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## edstreet (Jan 13, 2017)

Skie_M said:


> Let's just pay to have a pacemaker put in Ed and then stick him in a room with an MRI and see if he still doesn't believe it.   *giggles like a maniac high on sugar*



I swear I did not realize that Chinese made ZEN pen kits used MRI magnets. 

All teasing aside this is a very good example of the 'Straw man' logic fallacy.

Logical Fallacies and the Art of Debate


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## Smitty37 (Jan 13, 2017)

edstreet said:


> Better yet. CALL a manufacturer and ask them. Info from the 90's is grossly outdated.  Parroting misinformation and outdated info is  what leads to problems.


The report I cited was 2013 not the 90s.  And, my buddy still has a pacemaker - pacemakers are not terribly long lived so I suspect he's had it changed a few times in the 20 years or so.  I'm not interested enough to call the manufacturer - I don't need one right now (not out of the question though because I do have an irregular heart beat),


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## Smitty37 (Jan 13, 2017)

edstreet said:


> Skie_M said:
> 
> 
> > Let's just pay to have a pacemaker put in Ed and then stick him in a room with an MRI and see if he still doesn't believe it.   *giggles like a maniac high on sugar*
> ...


Well for me it isn't a debate...you made a specific statement about finding something put out by a manufacturer of pacemakers.  I remembered when my buddy got one and went out and looked and at a manufacturers web site found what you had implied didn't exist.  That's all no debate.  No straw man just some items copied verbatim from the manufacturer's web site.


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## jttheclockman (Jan 13, 2017)

What harm can it do to put a warning label on pens that comes with magnets. I would not want to to be the one who is the test project. Today there are all kinds of warnings on the very medication you take to help cure you and it makes you think is it really worth trying when you read some of those side effects.   The thing with these type pens is they are so close to the heart if carried in a shirt pocket. I do not know the answer and that is why I brought it up.


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## edstreet (Jan 13, 2017)

Plenty of harm (for warning labels) if the reason is psuedoscience, unclaimed justification and no proof to back up the claim.


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## Scissortail Pens (Jan 13, 2017)

Great little article on magnets from a magnet manufacturer concerning magnets and pacemakers. Lots of sources. Not only that, but it just took a few moments of using google to find out the same information from the different manufacturers. The good thing about the KJ site is they also give you a nice little chart to figure out how far to keep neodymium magnets away from pacemakers. Electromagnets are the biggest concern for pacemakers, but just about any magnet can affect the pacing of one.


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## jttheclockman (Jan 13, 2017)

edstreet said:


> Plenty of harm (for warning labels) if the reason is psuedoscience, unclaimed justification and no proof to back up the claim.



So say you ED. You are not the one being targeted unless you have a pace maker. Unfounded. Ask the big car makers what is costing them to fix unfounded concerns right now. Ask the makers of asbestos what it costing them to settle claims. Get the right lawyer and anything is possible but hey they can always say Ed told me it was bogus claims. It all starts somewhere. New product on the market.

Nice find Dave. Thanks. Makes for some interesting reading and bottom line ask your doctor.


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## edstreet (Jan 13, 2017)

I didn't realize that asbestos nor cars were included in the ZEN kits nor any other kit with a magnet employed.  However all red herring topics aside I would like to see some non-speculation and some hard proof and not fear mongering.  Those who have posted thanks for the info.


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## jttheclockman (Jan 14, 2017)

I am done. Good luck.


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## eduardomachado (Jan 14, 2017)

Crap!!! I need 10!!!


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## Smitty37 (Jan 14, 2017)

I think sufficient proof has been provided that pacemakers can be affected by magnets.  The proof lies in what the manufacturers themselves say about the subject.  I don't think it poses any serious concern to people making pens that have magnetic components...the manufacturers also say that after moving the magnet the device will start working properly again.


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## edstreet (Jan 14, 2017)

The chart provided in the link Hopco posted States there is no danger


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## Smitty37 (Jan 14, 2017)

edstreet said:


> The chart provided in the link Hopco posted States there is no danger


The producer of the chart  also says: "What is a safe distance to keep magnets away from pacemakers?  We are  not medical professionals, so we cannot offer guidance on pacemaker  safety.  Please consult a physician for this information."  That's why I went to see what a pacemaker manufacturer had to say about it.

That being said my friend who got a new pacemaker in 2014 said he did not receive any cautions about magnets with this one.


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## jttheclockman (Jan 14, 2017)

Smitty37 said:


> edstreet said:
> 
> 
> > The chart provided in the link Hopco posted States there is no danger
> ...




That should be enough said. We too are not experts so to say it is bogus is just adding fuel to the unknown. I can bring up more examples but it has nothing to do with Zen pens as pointed out so why bother. One thing I would mention the magnet in these pens looks more powerful than ones in a Zen pen.


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## Scissortail Pens (Jan 14, 2017)

Actually the chart and the sources provided show that there is an inherent danger to pacemakers from magnets. Just not one that should interfere with a persons normal life. With that said, yes, if you have a pacemaker you do need to be aware of the inherent risks associated with magnets. They can, they have and they will cause issues with pacemakers. Anything that has electricity flowing through it can be interrupted and shaped with a magnet, anything. The smaller the amount of electricity(wiring size, shielding, amperage, voltage in general), the more likely it can be interrupted and with a smaller magnet. As for the pens that started this thread, I want some. They really are cool. For those of us with pacemakers, just be careful and diligent as to what you place close to them. We want you guys to be around to teach us young punks how to actually turn and finish a pen. I know I need all the help I can get.:biggrin:

David (Red) Herring


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## magpens (Jan 14, 2017)

Like David, above, I would like one of the pens in question also !!!!

But I don't think they are on the market yet ... correct me if I am wrong, please.


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## Scissortail Pens (Jan 14, 2017)

magpens said:


> Like David, above, I would like one of the pens in question also !!!!
> 
> But I don't think they are on the market yet ... correct me if I am wrong, please.



Heck yeah, Mal. I don't want to sell one, I want to play with it.:biggrin:


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## Brian G (Jan 15, 2017)

http://www.medtronic.com/content/dam/medtronic-com-m/mdt/documents/emc_guide.pdf

If you don't want to read the guide, the manufacturer recommends to keep small household magnets at least 6" away from the device.  Here is why:

"There is a small magnetically activated switch built into the electronics of pacemakers and implantable defibrillators. This internal switch is designed to close when a magnet of enough strength is placed over it.  When the internal switch is closed in the pacemaker, the pacemaker paces the heart at a continuous preset rate (which could be different than the rate the doctor programmed).  When the internal switch is closed in an implantable defibrillator, it prevents it from delivering treatment therapies."

It's not pseudoscience.  It's very real.  Part of my job  is worrying about stuff like this.  A wise pencrafter that sells pens with magnetic caps would make clear that the pen contains a magnet.  It may or may not be a powerful enough magnet to close the switch, but why risk non-disclosure.

Anybody that wants to know what credentials I have that would carry any weight in supporting my answer can send a PM.  I didn't rely a result from a simple Google search.

Facts matter; details are important.


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## jttheclockman (Jan 15, 2017)

Brian once again I want to thank you also for supplying known valuable info that is written as proof that there is legit claims to be a potential problem for people with these devices. This is the second such written info that makes it indeed a concern. The product which started this debate is new on the market and I have not seen the entire sales pitch and believe no one else has either so maybe there is something written in their sales program. I only brought this topic up because when I started making the Zen pen a couple years ago, I asked this same question and it got the same response. I had only sold one Zen pen and when I did I mentioned to the buyer of my thoughts on the magnetic cap and gave my warning.What happened after that I have no idea. 

Now have there been any cases of actual problems because of magnets, I am sure there have and this is how they come upon being on that list. As I said also what harm would it do to attach this warning. The strength of the magnets is probably the big factor in all this and I do not claim to know the strength and the exact # that is need to cause a problem. But I still believe there is a need to at least consult with your DR if making a purchase like this. Maybe those people are well aware of the potential dangers already but in today's world any lawyer can sue for anything and people do. 

I am glad in spite of the debate that this at least has been discussed to some extent and weather you believe it to be bogus or not I do believe it is worth a read. Thanks again.


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## Smitty37 (Jan 15, 2017)

Well John, I think it doesn't matter whether or not someone thinks it is bogus-- Unless of course they happen to be a pacemaker user.  The actual users of Pacemakers better know for sure. If I ever need one I'll sure find out for sure.  It is amazing the things that have magnets in them that I would never associate with magnetism.


jttheclockman said:


> Brian once again I want to thank you also for supplying known valuable info that is written as proof that there is legit claims to be a potential problem for people with these devices. This is the second such written info that makes it indeed a concern. The product which started this debate is new on the market and I have not seen the entire sales pitch and believe no one else has either so maybe there is something written in their sales program. I only brought this topic up because when I started making the Zen pen a couple years ago, I asked this same question and it got the same response. I had only sold one Zen pen and when I did I mentioned to the buyer of my thoughts on the magnetic cap and gave my warning.What happened after that I have no idea.
> 
> Now have there been any cases of actual problems because of magnets, I am sure there have and this is how they come upon being on that list. As I said also what harm would it do to attach this warning. The strength of the magnets is probably the big factor in all this and I do not claim to know the strength and the exact # that is need to cause a problem. But I still believe there is a need to at least consult with your DR if making a purchase like this. Maybe those people are well aware of the potential dangers already but in today's world any lawyer can sue for anything and people do.
> 
> I am glad in spite of the debate that this at least has been discussed to some extent and weather you believe it to be bogus or not I do believe it is worth a read. Thanks again.


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## edstreet (Jan 15, 2017)

Brian G said:


> http://www.medtronic.com/content/dam/medtronic-com-m/mdt/documents/emc_guide.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Ok Brad you are indeed 100% correct, facts matter. Can you show scientific proof, read gauss levels of the zen magnet that shows they are greater than 10 gauss?  

I to read the same page as you did early on and the info given is very specific on a good number of items, i.e. Chainsaws but grossly vague on small magnets.   The vagueness is related to the vast diverse range of home magnets yet we are discussing one very specific magnet  also this specific magnet is very weak. Which this info should be easy to obtain and certify that it is "dangerous". 

It should be a fairly easy test to determine the gauss levels with the meter, sadly i do not have said meter but from your post I'm assuming that you do.


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## edstreet (Jan 15, 2017)

Also for the record pseudoscience.  




Non verified info that is passed as plausible with out verification is pseudoscience.


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## Brian G (Jan 15, 2017)

My name is Brian, not Brad.  If you're that sloppy to details that you get that wrong, you are not worthy of more of my time.

Yes, i can show studies. They exist for low power magnets used in jewelry, toys, pendants and the like. You can find them yourself.  I'm not playing your game of posting stuff for you to crap on.  Your opinion is wrong on this.  That is your choice.


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## edstreet (Jan 15, 2017)

Sorry am on my mobile and auto correct often fubar things greatly.


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## Smitty37 (Jan 15, 2017)

A manufacturer issuing warnings about the use of magnetic devices in close proximity to pacemakers they manufacture, sell and service is not pseudoscience nor is it science at all.  

As a matter of interest regarding scientific method.  Since the starting point has to be that proximity of magnet to device is a variable depending on the design of the pacemaker, I think it would be very difficult and quite impractical to design a scientific test to determine exactly how close proximity every possible strength magnet could reach with every single pacemaker or defibrillator manufactured without causing some failure or disruption of operation.

Even if you completed the experiment on one device, there is reason to believe that the results would not apply to devices designed by another company.


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## Smitty37 (Jan 15, 2017)

edstreet said:


> Also for the record pseudoscience.
> 
> 
> 
> Non verified info that is passed as plausible with out verification is pseudoscience.


Ed, that is a very long entry in Wikipedia trying to explain pseudoscience and after you read the initial definition you find it loaded with contradictory ideas.  In fact, some contributors seem to think the word pseudoscience should be dropped altogether.


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## edstreet (Jan 15, 2017)

Funny you should say that. Some have said the exact same thing regarding his thread to.  Yet here we are.


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## Smitty37 (Jan 16, 2017)

edstreet said:


> Funny you should say that. Some have said the exact same thing regarding his thread to.  Yet here we are.


 I started to read the whole article but to be honest gave up on it when they got into some areas where they are calling what I already think of as unscientific "real" science.  This forum would not allow mentioning of what they are.


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## Smitty37 (Jan 16, 2017)

There is the scientific method which is well defined and there is observation. Both can provide useful information but much observation can never be subjected to strict scientific method.  I think that's why  Ernest Rutherford a Nobel Prize winning Nuclear Physicist is quoted as having said...*All science is either physics or stamp collecting.  
*


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