# Bolt Action Kit Comparison



## Whaler (Jul 2, 2013)

Today I had a chance to compare the PSI kit against the Timberbits kit.
At first glance you can't tell them apart but once you really start looking and playing with the finished pen there are differences.
Timberbits is the cheapest at $9.00 for the chrome kit PSI is at $12.95 for the same kit.

The PSI kit seems a bit heavier, I don't have a way to weigh them.

The rifle clip has much more detail than the Timberbits kit.

There are sharp edges on the groove that the bolt rides in on the Timberbits kit.

The bolt sticks out farther from the body and doesn't look right on the Timberbits kit.

The PSI kit is much smoother when working the bolt.

I am not saying that the Timberbits kit is a bad one, there are worse ones out there. I am saying that the PSI kit is a higher quality in my opinion.

The Timberbits kit is the camo one.


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## psilevy (Jul 3, 2013)

Regarding the Timberbits Bolt action pen kit 

I have a US Patent US D683,352 on the Bolt action pen design that has been
copied by Timberbits supplier.  As an owner of Penn State
Industries we and our retail arm PSI Woodworking products have exclusive rights
to distribute this kit. It is in violation of US patent laws to import and distribute 
copies in this country.  Our attorneys have notified Timberbits and it appears that
he continues to distribute his "Chinese Knockoffs" of my patented design.

We fully intend to protect and enforce our patent in this country against
violators.   I respect the members and content of this Forum and 
would hope that you would respect our patent laws and neither promote
or purchase any of these illegal knockoffs.

Ed Levy
VP and GM
Penn State Industries


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## bellringer 75 (Jul 3, 2013)

psilevy said:


> Regarding the Timberbits Bolt action pen kit
> 
> I have a US Patent US D683,352 on the Bolt action pen design that has been
> copied by Timberbits supplier.  As an owner of Penn State
> ...



They are only illegal if you live in the states


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## Smitty37 (Jul 5, 2013)

I have seen them offered by at least one other supplier who I am sure did not supply Timberbits.


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## Jgrden (Jul 5, 2013)

Very interesting. So am I to understand that Penn State Bolt Action pens are made in the United States and the Timberbits is made in China? This puts a different light on things.


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## Jgrden (Jul 5, 2013)

Smitty37 said:


> I have seen them offered by at least one other supplier who I am sure did not supply Timberbits.


I miss your point. Please restate it so that this plebeian can understand what you are saying. 

Please and thank you, 

John


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## KenV (Jul 5, 2013)

Jgrden said:


> Very interesting. So am I to understand that Penn State Bolt Action pens are made in the United States and the Timberbits is made in China? This puts a different light on things.



Patent location and manufacturing location are only occasionally related -- and not likely so in this case.


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## NittanyLion (Jul 5, 2013)

Both look like quality kits.  The leader in sales will be the one to provide better customer service.  Time will tell.


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## Smitty37 (Jul 5, 2013)

Jgrden said:


> Very interesting. *So am I to understand that Penn State Bolt Action pens are made in the United States and the Timberbits is made in China?* This puts a different light on things.


No that is not what you are to understand...I have no idea where PSI kits are made but it is not likely to be in the USA.  I also don't know where Timberbits kits are made but it is likely to be in China or Taiwan (he has claimed in the past, to have sources in both Taiwan and China).  The source I referred to is no longer offering the kit so I shouldn't have mentioned it.


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## Jgrden (Jul 5, 2013)

Smitty37 said:


> Jgrden said:
> 
> 
> > Very interesting. *So am I to understand that Penn State Bolt Action pens are made in the United States and the Timberbits is made in China?* This puts a different light on things.
> ...


Okay Buddy,thank you.


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## jttheclockman (Jul 6, 2013)

Isn't it Ironic that PSI is calling FOUL??????  This one is laughable:biggrin:


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## Smitty37 (Jul 6, 2013)

jttheclockman said:


> Isn't it Ironic that PSI is calling FOUL??????  This one is laughable:biggrin:


I'm sure they take the position that copying someone's unpatented, untrademarked design is perfectly legal, while knocking off a patented design is not.  You and I might say that everything that is legal is not ethical....


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## beck3906 (Jul 6, 2013)

jttheclockman said:


> Isn't it Ironic that PSI is calling FOUL?????? This one is laughable:biggrin:


 
I find this kind of statement interesting.

PSI is doing nothing more than protecting their interests invested in getting this product to market.  Nothing more than Nike, Rolex, and hundreds of other companies do.

Members here rose to arms recently when it was suspected Bear Tooth Woods was crashing in on a members turf only to learn that BTW had started using this member as a supplier.

Look at all of the other vendors who are supplied by members here.  Even PSI uses some of the members to supply their products.

But PSI has gone to the expense of protecting one of their designs with a patent.  This could get costly for them.  But everyone who designs a product has the ability to patent or trademark their design.  Most of us cannot afford the cost to protect that trademark.

Look at Berea and their trademark on the word Sierra.  This word is commonly used and no acknowledgement given back to Berea.

Even our own Mesquiteman is wronged when someone uses the phrase "worthless wood".

Personally, I see that PSI has a market they're protecting with a patent.  As a result, I would be leery of ordering the Timberbit products as I would be concerned the order could end up in a customs warehouse.


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## Smitty37 (Jul 6, 2013)

beck3906 said:


> jttheclockman said:
> 
> 
> > Isn't it Ironic that PSI is calling FOUL?????? This one is laughable:biggrin:
> ...


Not so - the term 'worthless wood' was used to describe wood that was -- well worthless --before Cutris was even born...I had abox in my basement with the word "worthless" written on it about 45/50 years ago - it was where I tossed cut-offs etc from projects and about once a year we took it out, made a bonfire and had a hot dog/marshmellow roast.

Now in a context of pen blanks you might have a valid point, depending upon how and in what context the term was first used.


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## beck3906 (Jul 6, 2013)

Another voice I haven't heard in this discussion is "Buy American".  Why not support the U.S. supplier?


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## MesquiteMan (Jul 6, 2013)

beck3906 said:


> Even our own Mesquiteman is wronged when someone uses the phrase "worthless wood".



Just for the record, I never claimed trademark on the term in relation to pen blanks and did this intentionally.  I do NOT have an issue at all with the use of the term.


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## Smitty37 (Jul 6, 2013)

beck3906 said:


> Another voice I haven't heard in this discussion is "Buy American".  Why not support the U.S. supplier?


At the rate they are appearing in pictures and on web sites, I'd say that a significent number of folks are supporting the US supplier.


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## beck3906 (Jul 6, 2013)

Curtis,

I did go back and look at your worthless wood tutorial after I posted that comment to check your use of trademarks on the phrase.  I did not see it there nor on your web site where I also thought I had seen it.  My bad.  But I do see you have trademarked other names for your blanks.

Smitty, you and I agree on the popularity of these pens.  I go to shows and see folks with 40-100 on display.

Hmmmm...
Maybe I need I get in on this trademark idea.  Quick Rick pens.  Kinda catchy.  Where's that trademark application.  :biggrin:

BTW...
The OP suggested the Timberbits didn't have the quality of the PSI kit, so why scrimp and run the risk of a return?


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## jttheclockman (Jul 6, 2013)

I am not going to copy and paste all that question my view. To me it is my view. We can look back at the computer pen blank, the carbon fiber blank, the copper braid and I am sure there are many more that were first shown here but soon appeared in PSI catalogs. Say what you want but i find it ironic. No we all do not have the funds to patent any of our creations and I do understand their stance. I have had an idea that I have been kicking around for some time and would be great if I can find the time to perfect it. But I sure as heck would bet the farm that PSI would copy it in a heart beat. I have no skin in the game about either pen kit because I hate both of them. That is one kit I will never make. I do understand that they seem to be good sellers. But I would have a problem with that bolt sticking out and ripping my pocket. Not for me. 

Have a great fight. Those that said buy American what do you have in your closet???


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## Smitty37 (Jul 6, 2013)

jttheclockman said:


> I am not going to copy and paste all that question my view. To me it is my view. We can look back at the computer pen blank, the carbon fiber blank, the copper braid and I am sure there are many more that were first shown here but soon appeared in PSI catalogs. Say what you want but i find it ironic. No we all do not have the funds to patent any of our creations and I do understand their stance. I have had an idea that I have been kicking around for some time and would be great if I can find the time to perfect it. But I sure as heck would bet the farm that PSI would copy it in a heart beat. I have no skin in the game about either pen kit because I hate both of them. That is one kit I will never make. I do understand that they seem to be good sellers. But I would have a problem with that bolt sticking out and ripping my pocket. Not for me.
> 
> Have a great fight. Those that said buy American what do you have in your closet???


Personally I think they're ugly -- but they are a novelty.  My guess (and I have guessed wrong in the past) is that they'll last about a year or two they go by the wayside.  Novelty items are seldom long lived.


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## jyreene (Jul 6, 2013)

I actually really like them. There are a few things i wish they had done a little different but they are minor. Copywriters can be a finicky thing. PSI has one so they'll defend it.


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## jttheclockman (Jul 6, 2013)

Smitty you are probably right. But as mentioned if they are a seller for some then why not go for it. Alot of fads have come and gone. I do not who is making what for who any more so I can not comment on that stuff. We can all sit here and speculate as to what is right or wrong but I am sure the parties involved will work it out without any of us.


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## Whaler (Jul 8, 2013)

It looks like Dayacom is now in the bolt action kit business as well.
DAYACOM INDUSTRIAL CO., LTD


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## LagniappeRob (Jul 8, 2013)

What I find interesting is this from the Dayacom page:



> PATENT PENDING IN U.S.A.,AUSTRALIA, TAIWAN.


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## Dan Masshardt (Jul 8, 2013)

Whaler said:


> It looks like Dayacom is now in the bolt action kit business as well.
> DAYACOM INDUSTRIAL CO., LTD



I like all those plating options.


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## tbroye (Jul 8, 2013)

But notice in is not called a bolt action kit. It is called a knob slide action with spring loaded bullet ball pen kit. That's one way to try and get around it. Don't know who makes Pen State's Bolt Action kit.


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## LagniappeRob (Jul 8, 2013)

There's actually a couple things I like better about it...  One the action goes in the right direction (down not up) - I know PSI changed to allow this after saying it wasn't possible and proved wrong. (Hmm... I wonder what that does to a DESIGN patent).  Also the "knob" doesn't stick out quite as far and seems less likely to get broken. I broke a PSI bolt lever when I was playing with one without what I thought was too much force. Maybe it was already stressed or something. 

I don't sell too many of these. I'm in art markets more, so it's really a seasonal gift item only for me. The ones I have right now have been there for months.


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## BSea (Jul 8, 2013)

tbroye said:


> But notice in is not called a bolt action kit. It is called a knob slide action with spring loaded bullet ball pen kit. That's one way to try and get around it. Don't know who makes Pen State's Bolt Action kit.


Also, the clip is a lever action rather than a bolt action.  I'd heard there were some bolt action kits using this clip, but this is the 1st I've seen.

I'm not a fan either way, and I agree that they're a fad that probably won't last.  I equate them to the shock absorber pen or the Lone Ranger Movie.:wink:


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## Smitty37 (Jul 8, 2013)

LagniappeRob said:


> There's actually a couple things I like better about it...  One the action goes in the right direction (down not up) - I know PSI changed to allow this after saying it wasn't possible and proved wrong. *(Hmm... I wonder what that does to a DESIGN patent).*  Also the "knob" doesn't stick out quite as far and seems less likely to get broken. I broke a PSI bolt lever when I was playing with one without what I thought was too much force. Maybe it was already stressed or something.
> 
> I don't sell too many of these. I'm in art markets more, so it's really a seasonal gift item only for me. The ones I have right now have been there for months.


It depends on what is patented the whole kit is obviously not because most of the parts are in the public domain anyway.  So assuming the action is what is patented it will probably depend on what had to be changed to make it work that way - minor changes to slightly modify the operation might not have any effect at all..


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## LagniappeRob (Jul 8, 2013)

It's a design patent not a functional (utility) patent.  That's why I mentioned it for the 2nd time.  Design patents are for oranmental appearance only. The bolt action function itself would not be covered by a design patent. That would require a utility patent. Design patents are easier/faster to get, but offer limited protection because "variations".   Utility patents cover the function but not ornamentation.

Of course, this is just my layman's understanding. I'm not a patent attorney but have worked with some in a previous position...

Edit: 

Here's a nice explanation of the differences ( many people don't realize there is any...), from an actual patent law firm:
http://www.patent-ideas.com/Design-Utility-Patents/Design-Patent-vs-Utility-Patent.aspx


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## LagniappeRob (Jul 8, 2013)

Smitty37 said:


> It depends on what is patented the whole kit is obviously not because most of the parts are in the public domain anyway.  So assuming the action is what is patented it will probably depend on what had to be changed to make it work that way - minor changes to slightly modify the operation might not have any effect at all..



See above  ^^.

Plus also you can see the patent. I posted the # of it in the other thread  (here: http://www.penturners.org/forum/f18...mud-timberbits-111696/index2.html#post1548415 )a few weeks ago. Once a patent is approved it's visible under the USPTO search.


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## jyreene (Jul 8, 2013)

Dan. I agree. I like those plating options but I don't like the bolt handles.


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## Smitty37 (Jul 8, 2013)

Thank you.  Patent infringement can be a tricky arena.  I worked for a large electronic firm and it was frequently sued for patent infringement, and initiated patent infringement suits fairly often itself.  Their defense, when defendant was often that the patent should not have been issued because a) their use of the idea pre-dated the patent so the 'invention' was already in the public domain, or b) it should not have been issued because it was not a novel solution involving anything that someone versed in the field would not see immediately (or something to that effect, I forget what the legal term was).  In my job I often evaluated items regarding submitting them for patents and most of the time I recommended to not submit because the item was not unique or unusual or new.  Once I even got to review an idea for submission that used almost entirely a method that another engineer and myself had developed three years earlier (and we did publish it but didn't think it was patent material).


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## pinelumber (Jul 8, 2013)

Good luck with the law suite.  If FORD had his way all cars on the road would have a blue oval.  The easiest way out is bent the metal a little different or have a different size and you should be able to skirt the patent.


Dennis
Pine lumber


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## pinelumber (Jul 8, 2013)

pinelumber said:


> Good luck with the law suite.  If FORD had his way all cars on the road would have a blue oval.  The easiest way out is bent the metal a little different or have a different size and you should be able to skirt the patent.
> 
> 
> Dennis
> Pine lumber[:bananen_smilies104::RockOn:


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## Smitty37 (Jul 10, 2013)

LagniappeRob said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > It depends on what is patented the whole kit is obviously not because most of the parts are in the public domain anyway.  So assuming the action is what is patented it will probably depend on what had to be changed to make it work that way - minor changes to slightly modify the operation might not have any effect at all..
> ...


I've gone to that site but have never been able to read the actual patent - I can only see a summary.  It isn't the easiest site I've ever seen to get around in.


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## LagniappeRob (Jul 10, 2013)

Yeah... just searching the database is a pita!  To see the patent you need to click the images button at the top of the summary and your browser needs to be setup to view TIFF files.  See http://www.uspto.gov/patft/help/images.htm


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## ren-lathe (Jul 10, 2013)

Do any of you remember when KODAK put out an instant camera that was a direct competition to Polaroid? It was on the market for a few years. There stated reason that they were not infringing the Polaroid patent was the chemicals were spread onto the film on the opposite side from the others. One developed from the front the other from the back. KODAK's was found in violation because Polaroid held a patent on both. While it was a matter of public record that they had both Polaroid was only required to list the one used on a given camera. Kodak did not do their research and it cost them big dollars. PSI may have more than one patent involved.


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## Leatherman1998 (Jul 11, 2013)

If you go to google you will see a patent search function. Search Bolt Action Pen. If I was at my computer I would post the link, sorry.

Sent from my Rooted Galaxy Player.


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## Monty (Jul 11, 2013)

Didn't see a "Patent Search function" on Google, but when I did Google "Bolt Action Pen" I found three more bolt action pen styles, not kits", and one is on Kickstarter.


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## LagniappeRob (Jul 11, 2013)

http://google.com/patents

Or click "More" at the Top, then "Even More" then scroll down to Specialized Search and select "Patent Search"


Another great Google one  Flights - Google Search    -- it's been cheaper than any of the other flight search engines


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## LagniappeRob (Jul 11, 2013)

BTW - if you haven't seen it before: this pen is references in the patent.
Hidetoshi Nakayama Bolt Action Writing Pen « Gear Patrol

I kind of like it... but not at $550


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## tbroye (Jul 12, 2013)

I like PSI better and they are less expensive. That was kind of an ugly pen.


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## Smitty37 (Jul 17, 2013)

I saw that awhile back and it is even uglier than the ones that have become so popular.  A pen with a bolt action should look like a rifle. My personal favorites would be the British 1895 Lee-Enfield 303. The US 1903 Springfield 30-06 or the German Mauser Karabiner 98k 8mm.  Cartridges do not come with bolts and to me the bolt action on the back end of a cartridge looks silly.


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## Jgrden (Jul 18, 2013)

C'mon Smitty, it is the relation of the action to the bullet. People love it. I mean we have phones in cars and they are not related, right?


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## Smitty37 (Jul 18, 2013)

Jgrden said:


> C'mon Smitty, it is the relation of the action to the bullet. People love it. I mean we have phones in cars and they are not related, right?


Everyone else is certainly free to like those pens.  I said that I think they look silly and unattractive.  I'm not trying to convince the world that they are.


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