# [rant] Horribad kit diversity in the market [/rant]



## edstreet (Aug 27, 2012)

[soapbox]
Lets see here.  First let me say I am not trying to slam anyone, just trying to address a growing problem that I see as a pen maker.  These problems that I address is grossly discouraging and repeals buyers.  New makers has a much higher problem than us old salts.

There  are way to many duplicate pen kits out there from various sources that is the same 
kit.  Same kit sold by 4+ companies each with a different name.  2-3+ different companies making the same type pen with the same name but each sold by unique companies, oh and get this, the specs are not the same. i.e euro center bands, slimlines, sierra's. 

The other problem I noticed is the names will be similar and often over lapping, i.e. sierra elegant beauty, sierra elegant, etc.  It just kills me when I see sites like exotic blanks list many good variety pen kits but fails to mention tube and bushing sizes; places like PSI goes out of their way to hide the bushing sizes; Woodcraft, well lets just not go there.  There are others equally guilty and more so but the ones I listed was off the top of my head so don't feel picked on if  you got mentioned.

What would be fantastic is a list of all the pen kits, image, bushing type/size, tube type/size, who sell it under different names and the like.  Everything I have seen is grossly outdated, incomplete nor covers everything that is needed.

One thing I have YET to see *ANY* vendor do is a kit search by type, one where you can filter out by feature, type, plating, size, material, weight, diameter.  Before anyone posts you can do that already try these:  
*) Get a listing of all ball point pens with a round ball on the clip; 
*) Any kit that has a max tube length of 2.6 inches;
*) Pencil with a tube diameter of 1/2 inch;
*) Kits that will take a G2 gel refill;
*) kits with a top that is 0.334" in diameter that has a screw thread for the cap
*) kits with a flat clip; kits with an S shaped clip.

Oh and my favorite of all: I am looking for pen kit X, vendor A who I mostly buy from is out of stock, what other vendor(s) carries them and under what name?

[/soapbox]


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## thewishman (Aug 27, 2012)

Yeah, those darn vendors! How dare they offer such a wide variety of pen kits! I remember when there was just one style in one plating. Ahh, those were the halcyon days.

Mr. Street, why don't you make such a list, or start one and ask for others to help?


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## crabcreekind (Aug 27, 2012)

Well, after you make tons of pens. You learn what mixes with what. And what pen kits are good and which ones are not. Its just the trick of the trade. I had to learn it just like everyone else. So if you want to make such a list, go right ahead. It might be a long time before you get done. Because you will have hundreds of vendors, not to mention the billion different types of kits. Also, changes to the design of the pen kits happen alot. For example the sierra elg click tube length is different depending on if you bought the new or old sierra elg click.


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## Holz Mechaniker (Aug 27, 2012)

Relax, Breath, and Have a read.

2009 Pen Kit Comparison

Wood Craft Pen List 

Bushings and Tubes

If all else have a good gander of the IAP Library.


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## PenPal (Aug 27, 2012)

Ed,

I can speak freely that Timberbits.com has on his website all of the information for the products he sells and supports, he pioneered videos of how to and I can see no reason for any seller to do more. I note with interest Ed in the good old USA does much along the same lines as do others.

It is for us to decide what we like and do to make notes, be methodical in our practices and be wise enough to be responsible for our own preparations and emergencies.

I refuse to accept orders for out of sight kits, new products etc rather keep developing my own interests and skills. As a father of 6 a husband for 57 yrs being completely aware of the needs of my loved ones perhaps my experiences vary from yours, if old salt definition is covered by this. For me my first pen in the 1980,s until now means I have seen perhaps more difficulties than most with supply and demand.

Understanding your RANT want you to know of the countless times I have financed bulk buys, worried about so many things I enclose one of the important things of this world in a pic this is  typical of one more important event..

One of our four 15 yr old cats sleeping on my wifes book of scriptures last Sunday morning.

Peter.


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## edstreet (Aug 27, 2012)

Holz Mechaniker said:


> Relax, Breath, and Have a read.
> 
> 2009 Pen Kit Comparison
> 
> ...



Where to start,

Not bad and superb info if this was 2009.  Last update on the library was 04-29-2011 and that subject was casting.

Outdated,
Outdated,
Outdated,
and Outdated.

Not to mention that in all 4 of those items they dont even cover half of the info that I mentioned.


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## Tim'sTurnings (Aug 27, 2012)

+1 if it is a problem for you, you should make a list if that is what you want. The information you cite I have not had a problem with. Asking questions to the vendors might help too.


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## Smitty37 (Aug 27, 2012)

edstreet said:


> [soapbox]
> Lets see here. First let me say I am not trying to slam anyone, just trying to address a growing problem that I see as a pen maker. These problems that I address is grossly discouraging and repeals buyers. New makers has a much higher problem than us old salts.
> 
> There are way to many duplicate pen kits out there from various sources that is the same
> ...


 As a small vendor I can only speak for myself - I have neither the time nor the resources to go out and find information regarding what all other vendors sell that might be the same or close to the same as what I have to offer. Nor is there any incentive for me to do so.

Why are there so many names for the same kit? Because someone claims trade mark rights on the most "popular" name and rather that fight with them about it, other sellers just sell the same kit with a different name - the "owner" of the name usually claims no rights to the kit itself so they can't stop people from making and selling the kit, but they can make it uncomfortable to use the same name. Personally I think those who are trying to protect a name are living in a world of "dumb, dumber or dumbest" but never-the-less it's what they choose to do.

Many of us have some things that we ''own" that tends to make our kits just a little different and we're not anxious to tell the rest of the world exactly what that is. I know that some of my kits use the same bushings as competitors and if I happen to be out of bushings I'll tell a buyer where he/she can get them - but I am not going to advertise for my competitors, they have more money for that sort of thing than I do and they don't really need my help.

This market is highly competitive and you as a buyer have many choices. If you are buying a large number of kits, educate yourself - I have some customers who spend thousands of dollars with me, they don't do that simply because I'm a nice guy (although I am a nice guy):wink:. 

If someone is new and just starting my advice is try a few places, look at websites and catalogs and find some kits you'd like to try and buy them from a couple of vendors. You'll eventually find one you like to deal with.


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## Constant Laubscher (Aug 27, 2012)

Ed, I think your approach is wrong and you will get more resistance than help. Why don't you take a deep breath and rethink your idea and more so your approach to Vendors and members here. Since you have this idea do an independent list/spread sheet/database ( no affiliation to any vendor or manufacturer  ) of what you want and may be share it with members who would like to use the info.


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## edstreet (Aug 27, 2012)

Constant Laubscher,

It sounds as if you did not actually read all of what I posted and/or even understood it.  I would urge you to re-read my first post.


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## Lenny (Aug 27, 2012)

As far as   *) Kits that will take a G2 gel refill;
 
I believe that would be pretty much any set of components that use a rollerball refill. If there is an exception (and there COULD be) I haven't heard of it yet.


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## Andrew_K99 (Aug 27, 2012)

Why would a vendor tell you enough information to be able to compare and find a similar product elsewhere?  I'd be shocked if any of them would be willing to give up this informaiton.

AK


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## edstreet (Aug 27, 2012)

Smitty,

Vendors coveting info like that should be a very big red flag for buyers. Esp if they are using this to maintain a competitive edge in the market is just poor business plan.  As my photography instructor said "show me something I have not seen before."  This is what the business model should be based around.

Lenny,
The G2 was just an example I used.

Andrew,
If it's the same kit but a new label on it that's not the same as something unique that only they do.


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## ed4copies (Aug 27, 2012)

I can just see the Cadillac commercial now:  "We use most of the same parts as Chevy, but spend twice as much to buy ours!!"

And these are made by the same company (GM) so their engineers would know this information.

Sorry, Exotics doesn't have engineers.  NOR do we know every pen kit made by every competitor.  And the pen making industry does not all speak the same language.  I can't tell  you how many times I have gotten notes looking for "10mm tubes".  There are SEVERAL tubes that you drill a 10mm hole for, but there are NO tubes that are 10 mm OD.  I can tell you which of OUR components will use a .385" tube, if you ask.

As for "aftermarket" refills that Exotics does NOT sell, there are dozens of "manufacturers" in China making refills under different names.  I'm afraid the correct answer is "trial and error" on your part, if you have a "favorite".  Early in my pen selling career (selling PENS, not KITS), I bought every refill OfficeMax and OfficeDepot offered for "parker" and "cross" style pens.  Why?  So I could sound knowledgeable at the venues where we chose to sell.

Exotics tries to give you the information necessary to evaluate our products.  Wayne Racinowski has done a yeoman's task of compiling "statistics".  Wanna improve the industry, send Wayne your suggested updates---the data---someone has to do it to keep an "updated reference".  Can't tell you how many times people complained there was no such guide and how many years it took before Wayne came forward and DID it!!!

Want another "industry-wide" guide??  Just put forth the parameters, go out and buy the products and create the "guide of your dreams".  

Good luck, let me know if I can help!!   (Ed the member, not Ed from Exotics right now!!)


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## Smitty37 (Aug 27, 2012)

edstreet said:


> Smitty,
> 
> Vendors *coveting* info like that should be a very big red flag for buyers. Esp if they are using this to maintain a competitive edge in the market is just poor business plan. As my photography instructor said "show me something I have not seen before." This is what the business model should be based around.
> 
> ...


 
That seems like the wrong word "covet" means want/desire something someone else has.  I dont think that's what you're trying to say.

Maintaining a competitive edge in a business is* NEVER* a poor business plan.  There would be few businesses indeed if the "business model" was based around 'show me something I have not seen before' - that's fine for a photographry instructor but hardly for a plumber.  I want to do things better than my competitors but not necessarily different.  

I'm not sure what the incentive for (say) CSUSA is to say we have this nice kit but you can get it cheaper from Smitty's or exotics or Berea Hardwoods?


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## Russianwolf (Aug 27, 2012)

Ed, I can't recall ever seeing a Ford commercial where it says "Our Focus is just as good as the Mazda 3 and the Chevy Cobalt", they talk about what makes them better, not what is similar or inferior. 

Go to any of their sites and see if they have a list for you of cars that get 35mpg from them AND other makers. Doesn't exist. You may find that information from a site not related to selling cars (edmunds.com for instance), but not from new car dealers even.

The vendors are there to sell THEIR products, not tell you where you might find something similar, or even who else might have the same product by a different name. THAT would be a bad business plan.


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## nativewooder (Aug 27, 2012)

Do you drink "Scotch"?


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## Nick (Aug 27, 2012)

*Hardware parts*

Mr. Street,
I for one will be looking forward to your up to date list of compatable pen parts from the various vendors (and maintaning it). IMHO it is not the responsibly of the vendors to do this task. I have found that a simple IAP post asking "will these bushings fit on this pen", will bring a responce from members who have already experienced the "problem". Vendors make every effort to indicate the sizes of tubes, drill size for their product. It should be up to us to determine what will fit the various pen kits with different names, to compare, from the information supplied with each kit.
In your reference to "out of date" info you could use that info to expand on your list.
personally I find the info usefull and appreciate the work of those folks who put it together.
Respectfully submitted 
Nick


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## nativewooder (Aug 27, 2012)

Or just "Thunderbird"?!


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## beck3906 (Aug 27, 2012)

Maintenance of such a list would never please everyone.  Your comments about what's available now support this.

The list would never have the one filter field someone wants.  We could ask for design features ad infinitum to ensure we captured everything and there would still be something left off.

The list would always lack the latest vendor.  Anyone can contact the overseas sources and begin supplying their own labeled products.  Knowing and finding this information would at least cost the price of one kit of each of their offerings in every plating

You would need a database capability to truly support the search features you're looking for.  The writer of such a database would want to sell this product to recover their time and cost invested in the database program that creates a self-running application.  These aren't cheap.  And the time to maintain it would be astounding.  Again, a cost needing to be recovered.  

And knowing the world today, piracy of this database would be rampant.

We could possibly get someone to commit to this project if we had 100 people offer to buy at $100 each.  This level of committment would begin to entice someone to work on this scale.

BTW, updates would cost about $25-$50 each to registered users, depending on how old your list is.  We would want to use the Adobe business practice here.  Just don't get too far out of date or you'll buy an entirely new database.

The free lists we have now look really good.  :wink:


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## Justturnin (Aug 27, 2012)

Many of these sites offer the instructions on their site as well s the Drill bit you should use.  If you know the drill bit you know the tube, maybe not the length but you can buy 10" tubes to cut yourself.  As far as bushings, many of the posted instructions will have the specs like that on them and if you are as against spending $3 for bushing get some Corian and make your own, they will be truer then what you will get from them many times.  See the uploaded PSI instructions, It has most of what it appears you are looking for.  As for the rest of what you want, the G2 is not an approved refill and I am sure Pilot will pick apart any company that uses that on their website.  As for the clips, look at the pictures on the website to see if it is what you are looking for.  No vendor will ever say "this is the same kit as vendor B with a different this or that" and it is silly to expect them to.  What you are looking for is what has been offered in the form of docs in the library.  Someone had the same idea as you and executed the idea.  If you are so passionate about it I would recommend you take what they started and update it.  Maybe make another column with an "updated on" option so folks will know how current the info is.


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## dexter0606 (Aug 27, 2012)

Looks like all you want is for all of the vendors to do all of your research for you. 
Google can be your friend


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## TomW (Aug 27, 2012)

edstreet said:


> Holz Mechaniker said:
> 
> 
> > Relax, Breath, and Have a read.
> ...



I'm quite sure that any of the IAP Library contributors would welcome your input towards keeping the library current.  I anxiously await your contribution.

Tom


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## Haynie (Aug 27, 2012)

edstreet said:


> [soapbox]
> Lets see here.  First let me say I am not trying to slam anyone, just trying to address a growing problem that I see as a pen maker.  These problems that I address is grossly discouraging and repeals buyers.  New makers has a much higher problem than us old salts.
> 
> I am going to assume you mean repels buyers. This is a very strong word and if doing a little research repels the future pen maker I can only imagine what would happen and how bad their feelings would be hurt the first time they exploded a blank.
> ...



In truth what you are asking is something no vendor is going to do.  You will have to do it on your own if it is this important to you.  The IAP library has not failed me yet. and I have only been making pens a year.  When I order pens from people I will ask them about bushings etc.  Most of the big boys have no idea.  The small fish do though.  Of course this also means I call the company if I have questions.


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## Hula daddy (Aug 27, 2012)

beck3906 said:


> Maintenance of such a list would never please everyone.  Your comments about what's available now support this.
> 
> The list would never have the one filter field someone wants.  We could ask for design features ad infinitum to ensure we captured everything and there would still be something left off.
> 
> ...



I own a script licence that will do most of what people are asking for. But the real task would be populating the database. It can be user driven and updated. 

If someone would like to donate some web space I would donate the script and time to set it up. It is a few years out of date but the upgrade is only $79.00 for 12 months worth of support and upgrades. 

It is joomla based and very powerful. jreviews.com is the script. I can set it up with clickable search links such as 10mm drill bits click the link and it pulls up all the kits that require 10mm bits. same could be for bushing sizes 

the big issue is having us users add the data. 

lets say the jr. gent is not in the data base from the front end a registered user can add that kit and fill in the pre populated fields. Size, bushing , drill bits Ect... what ever we choose. of course the submissions could be moderated.


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## BSea (Aug 27, 2012)

Maybe I'm different (Or just like to shop), but browsing through online catalogs was really fun for me as a new pen turner.  I didn't find it frustrating in the least.  It was more of a treasure hunt than a task.  

And there is no way anyone is going to buy 1 of everything out there & do a comparison.  I just looked at one of the vendors that I buy from, and he shows 436 pen kits.  So if say the average cost was $5, then that would come to $2180.  And that is only 1 vendor.  Granted, many are the same style, and use the same bushings, but even just categorizing  that would take some time.  Let alone documenting each one for someone wanting to find this information on just this website.  For him, or any other vendor to try & match his product line to just 1 or 2 other vendors would be a monumental task.  Even if it could be done, maintaining it would be a nightmare.

But think of any hobby out there that someone is just starting.  Everything is new.  Part of taking up a hobby is learning the different products associated with that hobby.  And it seems to me, most people enjoy doing the research.  That's why they took up the hobby in the 1st place.


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## Texatdurango (Aug 27, 2012)

edstreet, You'll probably say I misread your post because I disagree with you but personally I think you are asking a LOT from everyone just to keep you from doing a little shopping around.

This request reminds me of an email I got a few months back where the member asked me for a "favor".

He wanted to start making kitless pens and wanted a list of every tool that he would need to get started, the approximate prices and where to buy the tools (he would appreciate web links).  Aside from the list of tools, he would appreciate me taking a "few minutes" to write up a "How To" list to get him up and running.

I actually got tickled by the "few minutes" he was asking for so I took a photo of my shop and said start on the left going right and buy everything you see that you don't have! :biggrin:

It seems like every few months someone will post something similar to this where they want (someone else) to create and maintain a global pen supply list so they won't have to surf the web themselves.  I don't think it'll ever happen.

Just another opinion.


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## alamocdc (Aug 27, 2012)

nativewooder said:


> Do you drink "Scotch"?


 
Why, yes I do. Single Malt only... from the Highlands if you please! Yes, I'm a Scotch snob! And proud of it!:biggrin:

And the same goes for the kits I choose to turn. I buy from a multitude of vendors. Why? Because I have experimented with much of what is out there and have come to depend on different kits from different vendors. That, or my customer REALLY wants pen X and I don't normally turn it due to things already mentioned. I never let the lack of a comparison list keep me from checking some things out first hand. But that is how I learn. Others may be different. And that's okay... to a point.


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## redbulldog (Aug 27, 2012)

edstreet; It has been 1843 days since you joined here at IAP.  Most of us in that length of time would have our own information you are requesting!
I do not ever intend to turn even 1 of everything that is available. 
As stated earlier I have MY OWN list that pertains to the pens I turn.


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## randyrls (Aug 27, 2012)

Ed;  There is an IAP-Wiki that you can update with pen information.  There is quite a bit out there now.  It has a WYSIWYG editor very similar to the editor used to in the message forums so it is easy to add information or change outdated information.

IAP-Wiki

Information about details on how to update the Wiki is in this message.

Oh;  The nice thing is that information can be added, cross-referenced, and categorized.


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## edstreet (Aug 27, 2012)

Ok, just wow, did not think this thread would go viral but ok.

No, I don't drink scotch.

Yes I have server space, yes I have a database source etc.

Yes I would be glad to help update the library and wiki.

No I am not asking for vendors to do my legwork for me,

No I am not asking others to do my 'shopping around'

No I am not afraid to google and use it quite often.

Yes it has been 1843 days since I joined here at IAP, thanks for pointing that out and i have not been that active until here recently.

Yes I do have my own listings of that info.

Yes browsing catalogs is fun and I do that often.




> In truth what you are asking is something no vendor is going to do.



This pretty much about sums up what I was saying in the first post.  I have to be honest and say I did not know about the IAP wiki when I made that first post but I do now. I did look thru the library and see the very outdated lists.  Even from a setup standpoint a wiki setup would not have the functionality that would be needed.

"covet" is indeed be the wrong word but it was what came to mind at the time, sorry!

Now in relation to the ads on the ford, chevy etc.. I would have to inject that the ad target is the end user, body shops and parts shops is the ones who would have the common database like this, yes they do exist and yes they are widely published and shared.

I will take a closer look at the wiki and see and I have no beef about contributing to the library or wiki.

Ed


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## Smitty37 (Aug 27, 2012)

*Target customer*

My business, which is quite small, targets for my customers IAP members looking for pretty good kits at very good prices accompanied by pretty decent service. 

Now turn the question around, do you in your business stress where and at what price your customers can buy competing pens, and what their name for similar pens might be?   Or, perhaps where they can buy better refills than you sell and what brands might be as good or better than what you're giving them? Or the names of vendors using better blanks? Somehow, I sincerely doubt that you do, yet that is exactly what you would ask vendors to do with pen kits.

I sell Emperor Kits at a price - and everyone is free to go and find out who else sells them and what their price is.  If someone asks, I'll even tell them. If they find a better price they are free to buy them there and I won't be upset because they do.  

Will I go find every other kit that might use the same drill bits or bushings?  Not a chance.


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## edstreet (Aug 27, 2012)

Smitty, 

I look at quality and eye appeal, not so much for price.  I also get ask often about specialized shaped items like clips, center band etc..

Actually I think the biggest offenders is the sierra pens, many confusing similar names in that line.


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## Russianwolf (Aug 27, 2012)

edstreet said:


> Now in relation to the ads on the ford, chevy etc.. I would have to inject that the ad target is the end user, body shops and parts shops is the ones who would have the common database like this, yes they do exist and yes they are widely published and shared.
> 
> 
> Ed


Not so much. If you were to go to a vendor with an "x" pen and ask for a new part "y", then you'd have a parts supplier for your analogy. Also, you'd need an aftermarket line of upgrades that could be used on the pen. We don't have that.

Our vendors are not supplying parts on a a-la-cart basis (with a few exceptions, a few clips and centerbands here and there). They are supplying sets of parts that allow you to build a complete pen. best analogy would be a kit car, but don't see many ads for them and I'd guess the few suppliers of "427 Cobra kit cars" don't compare theirs to the competitors too much either.


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## edstreet (Aug 27, 2012)

Russianwolf said:


> edstreet said:
> 
> 
> > Now in relation to the ads on the ford, chevy etc.. I would have to inject that the ad target is the end user, body shops and parts shops is the ones who would have the common database like this, yes they do exist and yes they are widely published and shared.
> ...



You just pointed out the fallacy from the previous poster as to why comparing pens to cars is a very bad choice.  I was trying not to go there.


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## Smitty37 (Aug 28, 2012)

edstreet said:


> Smitty,
> 
> *I look at quality and eye appeal,* not so much for price. I also get ask often about specialized shaped items like clips, center band etc..
> 
> Actually I think the biggest offenders is the sierra pens, many confusing similar names in that line.


 
That doesn't address the questions I asked about information you provide your customers.

*I deliberately selected Emperor because I think there is only one maker of that kit and not many vendors carry it.*


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## edstreet (Aug 28, 2012)

[quoteNow turn the question around, do you in your business stress where and at what price your customers can buy competing pens, and what their name for similar pens might be?[/quote]

This is not even the opposite question, not even remotely close.

You choosing emperor's is a good move as it is something unique which is what everyone should be striving for and not trying to copy others work.


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## Smitty37 (Aug 28, 2012)

edstreet said:


> [quoteNow turn the question around, do you in your business stress where and at what price your customers can buy competing pens, and what their name for similar pens might be?


 
*This is not even the opposite question, not even remotely close*.

You choosing emperor's is a good move as it is something unique which is what everyone should be striving for and not trying to copy others work.[/quote]
It is. 
You are a vendor (at times) and you provide a product that is similar to many competing products as do other vendors who provide, perhaps, pen kits- you imply that the other vendors provide information about their competitors products to make your choices easier.  I asked if you do  what you ask others to do - provide information regarding competitors products that might be comparable to your products.  

Dodging or ducking around the question doesn't answer it.


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## edstreet (Aug 28, 2012)

Smitty37 said:


> You are a vendor (at times) and you provide a product that is similar to many competing products as do other vendors who provide, perhaps, pen kits- you imply that the other vendors provide information about their competitors products to make your choices easier.  I asked if you do  what you ask others to do - provide information regarding competitors products that might be comparable to your products.
> 
> Dodging or ducking around the question doesn't answer it.



Yes I do.  Any good vendor and business owner that has half of a clue knows what you provide in service and uniqueness coupled with attitude, personality, mannerism is what business is all about.  You should try it sometimes instead of harping away on some wild ass tangent to the original topic.

Getting back on track the data that is in the pdf's listed earlier is very similar but grossly dated and from the numerous posts on this thread I see why they are dated and why this community will never rise above the starving pack of dogs it is today.  A good 1/2 to 2/3's of the reply posters assumed gross misjudgements in what I was talking about.


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## maxwell_smart007 (Aug 28, 2012)

Making 'baiting' statements like that have no purpose other than to try and cause a fight - and this thread has already seen enough pointless arguing.  

As this thread has degraded into name-calling and personal attacks, I am going to close it.

Andrew 
assistant moderator


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