# August Tap and Die Group Buy



## whteglve

*! ! ! UPDATED ! ! !*

*READ THIS ENTIRE POST.

YOU MUST BOTH PM AND POST IN THIS THREAD IF YOU WANT TO PARTICIPATE.

I'D ALSO LIKE TO ASK THAT YOU ONLY POST IF YOU ARE GOING TO PARTICIPATE. I'm not trying to be a jerk by this it's just to keep the thread cleaner and easier for everyone to follow. If you do have a question I'll be more than happy to reply to a PM and if need be update the original post.*

Welcome to the August Tap and Die Group Buy. Please read this post in its entirety to eliminate any confusion in the future.

My goal is to have everything done and ordered by Friday August 21. To help you save money I will ship your order to you via USPS Flat Rate shipping. I will use the smallest box as possible, but I may have to adjust up or down as necessary. This buy is open to USA, Canada and international addresses.

$50 of insurance is now included with Priority Mail to US addresses. YOU are responsible for any additional insurance you want. For reference, US destination: $100 of insurance costs $2.60, 200=$3.30, 300=$5.50, 400=$6.75.

I recommend you get insurance. Remember that I’m only responsible for shipping your package. I’m not responsible for your package once I ship it. Please remember that accidents happen.

If you have questions, please let me know!



*The Specifics*

This group purchase is for M12x.8 and M14x.8 taps and dies. From what I’ve seen so far we have enough people to reach a nice break on the M14x.8x2 taps and dies. I’ve asked for a quote for the taps and dies both with and without TiN treatment. The TiN treatment should extend the life of them. Which I think would save us all some money in the long run. We’ll need to order at least 9 pieces of each per size and tool in order get a good deal. Of course, the more the merrier and the cheaper.

The only minimum is for the group as a whole. The group buy will be open from the time of posting until Midnight EST On Friday, August 14, 2015. Payment via PayPal will be required by Midnight Thursday, August 20, 2015. This is because I want to place the order on Friday 21st, 2015.

Here are the expected price ranges. Once the participation deadline has passed, I will send each person a final total as well as posting it in this thread. This total will include the actual cost of their order, any insurance, shipping, and their share of the tooling charge. The tooling charge will be $65 for each size. 

Taps can be starter, intermediate, or bottoming styles. We are allowed to mix and match them.

*BY DEFAULT THIS GROUP BUY WILL BE INTERMEDIATE OR PLUG STYLE TAPS. UNLESS YOU PM ME AND TELL ME OTHERWISE. *

*M12x.8x2 TAP*
--9pc - $50-$60 ea. ($60-$70 ea. with TiN) --12pc - $40-$50 ea. ($50-$60 ea. with TiN)
*M12x.8x2 DIE*
--6pc - $55-$65 ea. ($65-$75 ea. with TiN) --12pc - $50-$60 ea. ($60-$70 ea. with TiN)


*M14x.8x2 TAP*
--9pc - $60-$70 ea. ($65-$75 ea. with TiN) --12pc - $45-$55 ea. ($65-$75 ea. with TiN)
*M14x.8x2 DIE*
--6pc – $70-$80 ea. ($80-$90 ea. with TiN) --12pc - $60-$70 ea. ($70-$80 ea. with TiN)


*IF YOU DO NOT MEET THE PARTICIPATION DEADLINE YOU WILL NOT BE COUNTED AS PART OF THIS GROUP BUY. ONCE THE MINIMUM QUANITIY(S) HAVE BEEN REACHED (AND PAID FOR), THE ORDER WILL BE PLACED FRIDAY 21ST..*

*REQUIREMENTS TO PARTICIPATE:*
• 1. PM me to get in.
• 2. Must have a USA, Canada, or International shipping address.
• 3. Also reply to this thread.

Please indicate your NAME and IAP USERNAME on all payments and correspondence. I will PM you to confirm receipt of your participation and another once I have payment.

In your PM please include the following information.
Your IAP screen name
Your “real” name
Your email address - PayPal and regular correspondence, if they are different
Your mailing address
*Your phone number*
Whether or not you want insurance (Yes/No)

*DEADLINES:*
• PM for pledging participation Friday August 14 (Midnight – EST)
• PayPal (only payment option) by Thursday August 20 (Midnight – EST)



*PAYPAL ONLY:*
I will be placing the order by Friday August 21. When you sending me your payment please send it as “Friends and Family”. That way we can avoid the fees. If you have not made the PayPal payment by the deadline scheduled above you will be removed you from the buy. I will confirm your total via PM as well as my PayPal information once both the minimums and the deadlines are met.

*SHIPPING:*
Will be defaulted to published USPS Small flat rate box of $5.95. It will include tracking and delivery confirmation

Canadians, please PM me for shipping quotes.



*SHIPPING INSURANCE:*
I do not require that you pay for insurance but I highly recommend it. I cannot and will not be responsible for what happens to your order after it leaves my control. You will receive confirmation of shipping, but once it has left my hands, I am not responsible for it. If you desire insurance, then please tell me in the your PM. I will PM to verify and cost adjustments that are made. I recommend insuring your order! 

I hope these terms are acceptable to everyone, and please feel free to PM me with any questions or concerns.


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## Cmiles1985

Well, you can count me in for the 14mm tap and die set. PM'ing you now!


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## edstreet

Your prices are off.


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## Carl Fisher

I'm in for an M14 set.  PM coming shortly.


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## Ironwood

Well thanks for including the international members here


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## skiprat

Hey Brad, haven't you learnt that we are often just honoury members here? 
The 'International' part of our group's name is often just for show.:frown:
Personally, I think all activities should be only permitted if open to all.

Oh well.....:wink:


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## its_only_me

*No thanks* for not including the rest of the world.


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## Ironwood

skiprat said:


> Hey Brad, haven't you learnt that we are often just honoury members here?
> The 'International' part of our group's name is often just for show.:frown:
> Personally, I think all activities should be only permitted if open to all.
> 
> Oh well.....:wink:


Agreement from here Skip !
I was a bit taken aback when I read the first post, seems we are penalised for living outside the purple circle  .


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## mredburn

If those of you outside the US or Canada will pm me your order I will place it with the rest and mail the set(s) to you outside the Continental US.  It will add between $7 and $9.00 to the base costs of the sets. 
If you order more than one set it may run upwards of $12.00. Either way I will charge exact shipping and insurance if you want it. 
Final costs may drop as the total amount of taps and dies exceed 12 units. Typically the taps will be lower in higher quantities but the dies will remain the same.


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## Ironwood

Thanks Mike, I will be in contact.


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## its_only_me

mredburn said:


> If those of you outside the US or Canada will pm me your order I will place it with the rest and mail the set(s) to you outside the Continental US.  It will add between $7 and $9.00 to the base costs of the sets.
> If you order more than one set it may run upwards of $12.00. Either way I will charge exact shipping and insurance if you want it.
> Final costs may drop as the total amount of taps and dies exceed 12 units. Typically the taps will be lower in higher quantities but the dies will remain the same.



That's really decent and above and beyond:good:


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## its_virgil

Personally I don't understand why our non USA members weren't included. They understand they pay for shipping. Only takes a little more time to complete the customs form but using Paypal shipping tool it isn't bad. Nice jester Mike. I know they will appreciate your kindness.
Maybe we need to make a change in our Group Buy rules to include ALL members.
Don


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## jyreene

Agreed with the confusion on international shipping. I included it in mine from last year. Cost me no extra time or money.


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## whteglve

*My apologies!*

I apologize to everyone, especially those overseas. International orders *WILL* be taken. I will give you the correct shipping when I give everyone else their totals. Sorry for the mistake.


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## whteglve

its_virgil said:


> Personally I don't understand why our non USA members weren't included. They understand they pay for shipping. Only takes a little more time to complete the customs form but using Paypal shipping tool it isn't bad. Nice jester Mike. I know they will appreciate your kindness.
> Maybe we need to make a change in our Group Buy rules to include ALL members.
> Don




I've changed the original post to included international orders as well. It was an oversight on my part.


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## Jim Heaton

I'll purchase the M14 set... PM sent


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## ChrisN

I'm in for 1 set of M14x.8x2 with titanium plating. PM Sent.


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## Henrique Sampaio

I am in for both M12 and M14 tap/die sets


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## Crashmph

I will take one of each with the TiN option.



 *M12x.8x2 TAP*
*M12x.8x2 DIE*
*M14x.8x2 TAP*
*M14x.8x2 DIE*


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## Pkweiss

I'll take both Sets.


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## JohnGreco

Put me down for an M12 TiN please.


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## Ironwood

I would like to order the 14mm tap and die set.

Has the type of tap been decided on yet ? ( start, intermediate, or bottom)


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## edstreet

Ironwood said:


> I would like to order the 14mm tap and die set.  Has the type of tap been decided on yet ? ( start, intermediate, or bottom)




Tap style can be unique for each person.  That's de facto industry wide.  

I still encourage everyone to get 2 taps and titanium treat everything, especially the dies.  

Taps can be shipped back to get resharoened and reprofiled but dies you are stuck with.


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## Alex D

I will take a set of 14's!

Thanks!
Alex


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## whteglve

edstreet said:


> Ironwood said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would like to order the 14mm tap and die set.  Has the type of tap been decided on yet ? ( start, intermediate, or bottom)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tap style can be unique for each person.  That's de facto industry wide.
> 
> I still encourage everyone to get 2 taps and titanium treat everything, especially the dies.
> 
> Taps can be shipped back to get resharoened and reprofiled but dies you are stuck with.
Click to expand...


The quote is for plug taps. As for being unique for each person I'll check with the vendor to know for sure.


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## Ironwood

whteglve said:


> The quote is for plug taps. As for being unique for each person I'll check with the vendor to know for sure.


 
OK thanks, I am fine to take a plug tap if that is what it is, but if we do have the option, I would opt for an intermediate tap. Though either way I will be happy.


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## skiprat

Brad, plug is intermediate.:wink: I would jump in if they were taper.


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## Ironwood

skiprat said:


> Brad, plug is intermediate.:wink: I would jump in if they were taper.


 Hi Skip, I always thought plug and bottom were the same animal , but I am happy to be corrected.


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## Katya

I'm in for the M12 tap & die, TiN please.  Will also get insurance.  PM to follow.
Many thanks!


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## edstreet

Plug bottom taper 1st 2nd 3rd etc.  This question has been beat to death a hundred times.  You can either look it up in the search or better yet use google and really learn about thread technology.


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## skiprat

Sure, you can get intimate with Google to get your ed-ucation or if you are not a total ....., you can interact with people and they will share quite happily...:wink:


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## edstreet

Interaction will still not even come close to the levels.


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## whteglve

skiprat said:


> Sure, you can get intimate with Google to get your ed-ucation or if you are not a total ....., you can interact with people and they will share quite happily...:wink:



Skiprat - I'm starting to think that some people only want to post to annoy others.


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## MartinPens

I am in for a tap/die set of M14 - TiN

As requested - if you aren't buying - please move on


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## duncsuss

Please put me on the list for a set of M14 die and plug (intermediate) tap, with TiN treatment.

Thanks!


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## Quality Pen

I know a lot of times posts on IAP get busy and buried... perhaps someone might want to alert the fountain pen forum to this group buy? I'm sure a few forgot about it or simply didn't know!

I bring this up because this recently happened to me regarding other happenings here! So much to see and do on the IAP!!!


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## whteglve

Quality Pen said:


> I know a lot of times posts on IAP get busy and buried... perhaps someone might want to alert the fountain pen forum to this group buy? I'm sure a few forgot about it or simply didn't know!
> 
> I bring this up because this recently happened to me regarding other happenings here! So much to see and do on the IAP!!!



I'm not sure I can do that. I've sent a PM to Monty to get his yay or nay.


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## whteglve

For those that were wondering about the type of taps. I was informed that we can mix and match types. Please see the OP for details.


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## ChrisN

What quantities are we at right now?


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## whteglve

Right now we are at 12 sets of M14's and 6 sets of M12's. I hope we can get at least the same amount of each. That would drop the price of the M12's $20.


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## Quality Pen

whteglve said:


> Quality Pen said:
> 
> 
> 
> I know a lot of times posts on IAP get busy and buried... perhaps someone might want to alert the fountain pen forum to this group buy? I'm sure a few forgot about it or simply didn't know!
> 
> I bring this up because this recently happened to me regarding other happenings here! So much to see and do on the IAP!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure I can do that. I've sent a PM to Monty to get his yay or nay.
Click to expand...

Good idea to double check. I don't think it will be a problem but its not my sandbox either! :biggrin: But seeing as how nobody "profits" this is just a win win for anyone and a lose out if someone missed the opportunity!

The more the participation, the more everyone wins! :biggrin:


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## longbeard

PM sent...



Harry


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## Mintman

I'd like in for a 14mm set with an intermediate tap.


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## Mintman

Sorry, i'd also like mine TiN coated.


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## cschimmel

I'm in for tap and die in the 14x.8  with TiN.  thanks


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## mredburn

I need to order 
12mm tap and die with TIN coating
14mm tap an die with TIN coating


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## Imaginethat

I need to order
12mm tap and die with TIN coating
14mm tap an die with TIN coating 

With insurance please


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## Grampy122

*Group Buy*

I would like to order the following:

12mm intermediate tap and die both with TIN coating

14mm intermediate tap and die both with TIN coating

With insurance please


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## whteglve

Here is where we are at right now...

12 orders for M14's (excluding the 3 pending) - Best price break reached.
8 orders for M12's (excluding the 1 pending) - 4 more needed for the best price break.


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## Skie_M

Are these for single taps and dies or sets?

Like .... metric 12 MM hole size, .8mm thread width, 2 threads per MM ?


I'm finding it hard to believe that a single tap and matching die has to run us over 100 dollars a set....

I got my tap and die set from Harbor Freight, but of course that's a general purpose set ... it was only 25 dollars though, and had 62 pieces.


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## Quality Pen

would love to hear more regarding the very same thing! obviously quality of superior but ed street would attest....shine folks need the details! haha


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## whteglve

Skie_M said:


> Are these for single taps and dies or sets?
> 
> Like .... metric 12 MM hole size, .8mm thread width, 2 threads per MM ?
> 
> 
> I'm finding it hard to believe that a single tap and matching die has to run us over 100 dollars a set....
> 
> I got my tap and die set from Harbor Freight, but of course that's a general purpose set ... it was only 25 dollars though, and had 62 pieces.



The taps and dies in this group buy don't have standard threads, which are single start/lead. These have double starts/leads. That's the reason these taps and dies are expensive. If you were to purchase these on your own, the per piece cost would be *WAY WAY MORE* expensive. That's why someone on the forum starts a group buy like this. The more people we have participating in the buy, the better per piece cost we can get. It takes the cost for a M12x.8x2 tap from $160 for a single tap, down to $45 each IF we order 12 at a time. 

I have a set like the set you purchased from Harbor Freight. The problem is that set only for single start, or lead, threading. It doesn't have any multi-start threads in it, like these. 

As for the sizing designation, I'll use your example and try to explain it. I'm sure that someone will correct me if I'm wrong. 

*M12x.8x2* is broken down like this;

* M* = Thread designation, metric
* 12* = Nominal/Major Diameter, 12mm
*  x* 
* .8* = The distance peak to peak of the threads
*  x*
* 2* = Number of starts/leads

Here is a wiki link explaining metric threads.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_metric_screw_thread

One image I attached shows single, double and triple leads.
The other one shows pitch.

I hope this helps everyone without me sounding like a jerk.


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## Quality Pen

I'm in for a set of both with TiN.


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## Quality Pen

*



			TAPS CAN BE STARTER, INTERMEDIATE, OR BOTTOMING STYLES. WE ARE ALLOWED TO MIX AND MATCH THEM.
		
Click to expand...


*If I am just getting into kitless and I want to just make nice kitless fountain pens... which of these is most suitable for me?*
*


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## beck3906

Just to clarify...
When someone requests a "set", does that mean all three taps and one die ?


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## Quality Pen

beck3906 said:


> Just to clarify...
> When someone requests a "set", does that mean all three taps and one die ?


I figure it is... one  M12x.8x2 tap and die and one M14x.8x2 tap and die


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## ChrisN

beck3906 said:


> Just to clarify...
> When someone requests a "set", does that mean all three taps and one die ?



Good question. To clarify my "set", I want 1 plug (intermediate) tap, and 1 die in 14mm.


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## whteglve

A set would be one tap and one die of a said size.

Thankfully, most members have stated that they wanted a tap AND die.


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## whteglve

Quality Pen said:


> *
> 
> 
> 
> TAPS CAN BE STARTER, INTERMEDIATE, OR BOTTOMING STYLES. WE ARE ALLOWED TO MIX AND MATCH THEM.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *If I am just getting into kitless and I want to just make nice kitless fountain pens... which of these is most suitable for me?*
> *



I use the intermediate or plug taps.


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## brownsfn2

I would like one set of the 12mm with TiN.  PM Sent.


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## beck3906

whteglve said:


> A set would be one tap and one die of a said size.
> 
> Thankfully, most members have stated that they wanted a tap AND die.



Should there be clarification that unless otherwise requested, the set includes an intermediate tap?  Of whatever?


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## whteglve

beck3906 said:


> Should there be clarification that unless otherwise requested, the set includes an intermediate tap?  Of whatever?



Good call. Since it was mentioned that we could mix and match tap types, everyone has mentioned they wanted an intermediate tap. 

I'll update the original post.


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## larrystephens

I'm in for a set of both 12 and 14.  Tn on all.  Sending PM


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## Docholiday

I would like a tap and die in the 14's (intermediate tap).  PM sent.


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## dogrunner

im in for a set of 12mm


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## TurtleTom

Would someone explain just what is in a 14 mm set and why these things are so expensive?  Are they tri cut?


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## duncsuss

TurtleTom said:


> Would someone explain just what is in a 14 mm set and why these things are so expensive?  Are they tri cut?



A "set" is a tap plus a die (the tap can be taper, plug or bottom.)

They are expensive because they are being custom made -- these are not "off the shelf" items.

If you're able to find a fine-pitch double (or triple) start tap and die set cheaper than these, please let me know :biggrin:


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## edstreet

TurtleTom said:


> Would someone explain just what is in a 14 mm set and why these things are so expensive?  Are they tri cut?



I will bite.

These are rather inexpensive compared to one of the quotes I have for some custom threading.  At over $600 EACH (and in lots of 12+) these prices are a steal.

The reason for the higher than standard tap/dies is the shop term for this group buy is 'bastard threads', meaning they are non-standard, non industry conforming and requires more than average experience and education to cut them properly.

As for this strange 'tri cut' I am assuming you are referring to triple lead, and your answer is no, that's not what makes them more $$.


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## TurtleTom

Thanks for the explanation everyone.  Since this will surely not be available again I'm in for a set of each in Tn.


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## Quality Pen

TurtleTom said:


> Thanks for the explanation everyone.  Since this will surely not be available again I'm in for a set of each in Tn.


Hah... my thinking too... can't use it right NOW but when I need it I won't have it :wink:


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## Wpixley

I am in for a set of each (intermediate tap) will send PM


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## longbeard

What we up to in quantities?



Harry


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## whteglve

M12x.8x2 - 17 Taps, 15 Dies
M14x.8x2 - 25 Taps, 23 Dies

Great numbers guys!


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## whteglve

*THIS GROUP BUY IS NOW CLOSED!!!*

Each one of you will get an email/PM within the next couple days.


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## duncsuss

whteglve said:


> M12x.8x2 - 17 Taps, 15 Dies
> M14x.8x2 - 25 Taps, 23 Dies



That's excellent!


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## edstreet

Don't forget.  Titanium coating the die is imperative as they can not be sharpened and TiN coating will double (or more) the life span (assuming it's not misused).  The taps can be resharpened and recommended TiN coated but it's not critical like the die is.  

TiN makes the tap/die cut smoother, colder and more efficient.   Cutting fluid that matches the material is also a must.  When you get the tap and die they need to be 'set', tempered If you will for best results.


0.8 pitch equates to 31.75 threads per inch.
m12 x 0.8 tap drill size is 0.457'' or 29/64" or 11.6mm 
m14 x 0.8 tap drill size is 0.536'' or 35/64 or 13.6mm

Die tenon size will have to be measured directly from the die but estimated size is 12.8mm or 1/2" and 14.8mm or 37/64".


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## Carl Fisher

So the payment deadline is tonight but I haven't seen final prices or an email to send the payment to.  

Are we still on track to place the order tomorrow and how do we make payment?


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## whteglve

Carl Fisher said:


> So the payment deadline is tonight but I haven't seen final prices or an email to send the payment to.
> 
> Are we still on track to place the order tomorrow and how do we make payment?



We sure are. I didn't realize I didn't send you a PM. I'm fixing that now.

*Has anyone else not received a PM with your totals from me?*


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## ChrisN

I haven't gotten a pm either. Perhaps you could post a list of who all you are waiting on.


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## whteglve

Thanks to Carl's post I went back through and sent everyone I missed. Sorry guys. Check your PM's.


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## whteglve

We're looking pretty good so far. That being said, I haven't received payments from 4 members so far. No, I'm not going to list them, but I did double check to be sure I'd sent them their totals. Thanks to Carl.


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## Carl Fisher

You would have caught it eventually   I was just concerned when I hit a post the other day that reminded me that the deadline was 8/20 and I hand't heard from you.

Thanks for your hard work on this buy.


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## duncsuss

Ditto what Carl said ... thanks for taking on the work of organizing this group buy -- much appreciated


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## whteglve

The order was placed and now the wait begins. I'll keep everyone posted.


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## Carl Fisher

Just curious, what is the expected turn around?


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## whteglve

I should be getting them in about 2-3 weeks. The main hold up, will be the dies and coating.


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## duncsuss

Tick ... tock ... tick ... tock ... :biggrin:

Must be getting close now :wink:


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## Carl Fisher

hope so, I have an order for another pen with an M14 and was hoping to use a double start instead of my old single start.


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## whteglve

Carl Fisher said:


> hope so, I have an order for another pen with an M14 and was hoping to use a double start instead of my old single start.



I called to check on our order yesterday. I was told they should be shipping them by end of the week or the beginning of next.


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## larrystephens

Cool


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## whteglve

Like the little girl from Poltergeist said "They're here!"


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## duncsuss

whteglve said:


> Like the little girl from Poltergeist said "They're here!"



:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:


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## Quality Pen




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## duncsuss

Any word on when you'll be able to get these mailed out to us? (if you haven't already)

Thanks!


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## whteglve

I've got everything sorted and in bags. I'm hoping that I will have everything in the mail by Friday.


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## duncsuss

whteglve said:


> I've got everything sorted and in bags. I'm hoping that I will have everything in the mail by Friday.


Thanks


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## cschimmel

Just curious where we are at here.  thanks


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## whteglve

I'm sorry guys, but I've been dealing with some flooding issues over the last few days thanks to Joaquin. The constant rain has saturated the ground and pointed out a couple clogs in the foundation drains. 

All orders are dry and safe. They will be shipped by Wednesday at the lastest. I really apologize for the delay.


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## TurtleTom

No need to apologize.  The right sort don't need them and the wrong sort will abuse them.  Thanks for keeping us in the loop, that's all we ask.


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## cschimmel

Thanks for the update,  take care of yourself.


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## duncsuss

Arrived today, *thank you* :biggrin:

I hope you've gotten through the mess following Joaquin and all is well again.


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## Carl Fisher

Got mine yesterday. Thanks!


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## Grampy122

*Got mine.*

They arrived today. Postal lady had to make a trip back. I think she missed them the first time around.

   Thanks for the Group Buy. Great job.
        Gordie


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## TurtleTom

mine arrived also.  Many thanks.


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## Wpixley

Received mine today as well. Thanks for the effort of putting this together. Now if I can find someone to teach me how to use them properly it would be great.


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## Imaginethat

Ash, received my taps dies today. Thank you so much.

I hope you were not effected by the flooding and your family is safe.


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## larrystephens

Received today.  Thanks for your work!


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## Docholiday

Got mine also.  Thanks!


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## Alex D

Mine showed up yesterday as well.  Thank you so much for putting this all together!

Alex


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## Quality Pen

Received mine today, and I'm a neophyte when it comes to this but I need to ask, is it OK that the TiN coating is not covering the surface? It seems, to my novice mind, that it is an incomplete coating, but I need to ask.

Here is a photo:

On the larger die the cutting threads are all coated but the outside is not, but on the smaller die the cutting threads at the end are actually not coated.

I don't know if this is OK.

Thank you.


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## JohnGreco

Mine were delivered yesterday, Thank you!


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## MartinPens

Received mine yesterday. Thank you.


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## whteglve

Quality Pen said:


> Received mine today, and I'm a neophyte when it comes to this but I need to ask, is it OK that the TiN coating is not covering the surface? It seems, to my novice mind, that it is an incomplete coating, but I need to ask.
> 
> Here is a photo:
> 
> On the larger die the cutting threads are all coated but the outside is not, but on the smaller die the cutting threads at the end are actually not coated.
> 
> I don't know if this is OK.
> 
> Thank you.



I will find out. I've already emailed the company and I'll be calling them later in the day.


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## whteglve

For those of you that ordered the TiN coating on your tap(s) and die(s), I need you to look at them. If they look as though the coating didn't completely cover the thread cutting surfaces please let me know. It seems as though I missed checking this when I was sorting and packing them.


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## TurtleTom

I noticed the blotchy coating right off but didn't say anything because the threads are well coated.


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## JohnGreco

Mine is that way too, but only one 1 side so I just kept that part facing into the holder.


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## larrystephens

whteglve said:


> For those of you that ordered the TiN coating on your tap(s) and die(s), I need you to look at them. If they look as though the coating didn't completely cover the thread cutting surfaces please let me know. It seems as though I missed checking this when I was sorting and packing them.



Mine looks exactly like the picture, it does not seem to be a problem on the 14, but the coating on the 12 does not cover all the threads on one side.


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## larrystephens

Does anyone know a good tutorial that will show me how to use these things?


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## duncsuss

I bought a set of 14mm tap and die.

The tap appears to be fully coated.

The die is fully coated on the front face (the one with the writing), but has the "blotchy pattern" on the reverse face.

It looks like 2 of the 5 cutting surfaces are without coating on the final few threads.


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## jttheclockman

whteglve said:


> For those of you that ordered the TiN coating on your tap(s) and die(s), I need you to look at them. If they look as though the coating didn't completely cover the thread cutting surfaces please let me know. It seems as though I missed checking this when I was sorting and packing them.




I got mine today and did check it. The tap is well coated and the die has the threads well coated which is the important thing. The one side has 2 rings as you show and that is probably from the method they suspend these to coat them. To me no big deal and I am satisfied with this group buy.

I would like to thank you for putting together. I have a complete set now so there is no more excuses for me not to put them to work.


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## edstreet

Quality Pen said:


> Received mine today, and I'm a neophyte when it comes to this but I need to ask, is it OK that the TiN coating is not covering the surface? It seems, to my novice mind, that it is an incomplete coating, but I need to ask.  Here is a photo:  On the larger die the cutting threads are all coated but the outside is not, but on the smaller die the cutting threads at the end are actually not coated.  I don't know if this is OK.  Thank you.



What you have here is bad setup in the chamber.  Note the absent of the coating on the teeth. 

This should not have made it past Q/A inspections at all.  You should send this back for a replace and not a recoating.


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## whteglve

*Really?*



edstreet said:


> What you have here is bad setup in the chamber.  Note the absent of the coating on the teeth.
> 
> This should not have made it past Q/A inspections at all.  You should end this back for a replace,end and not a recoating.



Thanks for your insight and participation in this group buy. 

I've already spoken to the company about this. I was on it as soon as I read Quality Pens post about it. As is evident from the two posts I made right after his. 

I'm not sure what I did, if anything at all, to earn your constant criticism regarding this group buy. You didn't take part in this group buy nor did you add anything other then the criticism. You were pushing everyone to go for the TiN coating like you get royalties off it. Yet, nothing was ever mentioned about the possibility of the coating not covering the threads effectively on the smaller sizes.

This IS my first group buy and no it didn't go perfectly. Next time I plan to help everyone out by doing a group buy I'll have to remember this ED-ucation.


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## whteglve

To all of those who DID participate in this group buy, I'd like to apologize for my last post. I didn't mean to sound like a jerk to any of you.


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## mredburn

I checked my set and the missing coating is where they supported the dies. Mine are fully coated on the threads so the rest is just cosmetic and of no consequence. I need functional tools not pretty ones.
Have you had a response from Tapco?


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## TurtleTom

Truth be known, the TiN is mostly for edge retention, corrosion resistance and cosmetic appearance.  The thickness is only 20 millionths of an inch.  Since it's on the cutting edges and I have no care about corrosion on the face, I doubt any machinist would get very upset about the lack of coating on the face of my set.  
  I'm delighted with my set so I'll just sign off.  I think your group buy went well enough.


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## whteglve

If anyone has a problem with their dies not being coated on the thread cutting surfaces please PM me.


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## edstreet

whteglve said:


> edstreet said:
> 
> 
> 
> What you have here is bad setup in the chamber.  Note the absent of the coating on the teeth.
> 
> This should not have made it past Q/A inspections at all.  You should end this back for a replace,end and not a recoating.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for your insight and participation in this group buy.
> 
> I've already spoken to the company about this. I was on it as soon as I read Quality Pens post about it. As is evident from the two posts I made right after his.
> 
> I'm not sure what I did, if anything at all, to earn your constant criticism regarding this group buy. You didn't take part in this group buy nor did you add anything other then the criticism. You were pushing everyone to go for the TiN coating like you get royalties off it. Yet, nothing was ever mentioned about the possibility of the coating not covering the threads effectively on the smaller sizes.
> 
> This IS my first group buy and no it didn't go perfectly. Next time I plan to help everyone out by doing a group buy I'll have to remember this ED-ucation.
Click to expand...



Yes it was I who brought up the TIN coating in the first place and me who mentioned all the benefits of it.  I still side with it being worthwhile for the cost involved.

There has been no criticism towards you in any shape nor form.  In fact I did not read your reply when I made that post.  The Q/A I mentioned was from the manufacture and not you.  Also the manufacture outsources treatment so it should have been picked up on not one but TWO Q/A check points.

Yes coating is critical on the cutting edges but the non-edges it's more cosmetic.  the photo shown is clearly lacking treatment in the cutting edges.


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## magpens

Got my shipment of 2 tap/die sets today ... West Coast of Canada.  The taps are absolutely perfectly coated; the cutting teeth of the dies are also perfectly coated and the few spots of missed coating on the die faces/edges are of no functional concern whatsoever.  I am really happy with the look of these products that arrived today on my birthday !!! 

Thank you John (whteglve) for the effort and time you put in to coordinating this group purchase ... very much appreciated.

Now, I am itching to try these out .... !  Please .....

Can someone tell me the correct hole size to drill for the 14/.8 and 12/.8 dbl start taps ?

And also the correct cylinder diameter to turn for the 14/.8 and 12/.8 dbl start dies ?

Thanks in advance. Maybe that info is already available on here somewhere

Thanks again


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## edstreet

I thought I had posted that info previously. Will look on my pc when I get home tonight and post it. I have all that data.


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## Katya

Just got my set in Toronto!  Looks just fine to my (novice) eyes.
Thanks again John for all the hard work you put into this group buy.  I would never have gotten such  a good deal without an opportunity like this. I'm looking forward to taking the next steps in my pen making.


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## magpens

edstreet said:


> I thought I had posted that info previously. Will look on my pc when I get home tonight and post it. I have all that data.




Thanks, Ed.  I'll check in this thread and elsewhere here too.

But if you have the info handy and if it's no trouble to look it up and send it I would greatly appreciate that.  Of course, I can make some close guesses by measuring the taps & dies but I'd prefer to work to the official numbers 

Cheers


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## edstreet

Even 'official' numbers is going to be measured.


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## magpens

edstreet said:


> Even 'official' numbers is going to be measured.



Ed you did give numbers in Post #76.  Thank you for that.


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## edstreet

edstreet said:


> Don't forget.  Titanium coating the die is imperative as they can not be sharpened and TiN coating will double (or more) the life span (assuming it's not misused).  The taps can be resharpened and recommended TiN coated but it's not critical like the die is.
> 
> TiN makes the tap/die cut smoother, colder and more efficient.   Cutting fluid that matches the material is also a must.  When you get the tap and die they need to be 'set', tempered If you will for best results.
> 
> 
> 0.8 pitch equates to 31.75 threads per inch.
> m12 x 0.8 tap drill size is 0.457'' or 29/64" or 11.6mm
> m14 x 0.8 tap drill size is 0.536'' or 35/64 or 13.6mm
> 
> Die tenon size will have to be measured directly from the die but estimated size is 12.8mm or 1/2" and 14.8mm or 37/64".





Shameless bump.


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## duncsuss

edstreet said:


> edstreet said:
> 
> 
> 
> Don't forget.  Titanium coating the die is imperative as they can not be sharpened and TiN coating will double (or more) the life span (assuming it's not misused).  The taps can be resharpened and recommended TiN coated but it's not critical like the die is.
> 
> TiN makes the tap/die cut smoother, colder and more efficient.   Cutting fluid that matches the material is also a must.  When you get the tap and die they need to be 'set', tempered If you will for best results.
> 
> 
> 0.8 pitch equates to 31.75 threads per inch.
> m12 x 0.8 tap drill size is 0.457'' or 29/64" or 11.6mm
> m14 x 0.8 tap drill size is 0.536'' or 35/64 or 13.6mm
> 
> Die tenon size will have to be measured directly from the die but estimated size is 12.8mm or 1/2" and 14.8mm or 37/64".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shameless bump.
Click to expand...


Ed, I'm a bit confused by the numbers you've given. My understanding could well be wrong, but here's what stood out for me:

If I use a 13.6mm drill followed by a 14mm tap, there can only be 0.2mm thread depth in that threaded hole. That does not feel right for a 0.8mm pitch tap. I would have expected to use a drill bit 13.2mm (14mm minus the pitch).

Conversely, if I'm about to put a 14mm die on a 14.8mm diameter tenon, it will have to remove the entire 0.8mm surplus, in addition to the depth of the threads that it's cutting. I would have expected to make a tenon that is 14mm (the major diameter after cutting with a 14mm x 0.8 die).

Am I missing something?


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## edstreet

duncsuss said:


> edstreet said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> edstreet said:
> 
> 
> 
> Don't forget.  Titanium coating the die is imperative as they can not be sharpened and TiN coating will double (or more) the life span (assuming it's not misused).  The taps can be resharpened and recommended TiN coated but it's not critical like the die is.
> 
> TiN makes the tap/die cut smoother, colder and more efficient.   Cutting fluid that matches the material is also a must.  When you get the tap and die they need to be 'set', tempered If you will for best results.
> 
> 
> 0.8 pitch equates to 31.75 threads per inch.
> m12 x 0.8 tap drill size is 0.457'' or 29/64" or 11.6mm
> m14 x 0.8 tap drill size is 0.536'' or 35/64 or 13.6mm
> 
> Die tenon size will have to be measured directly from the die but estimated size is 12.8mm or 1/2" and 14.8mm or 37/64".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shameless bump.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Ed, I'm a bit confused by the numbers you've given. My understanding could well be wrong, but here's what stood out for me:
> 
> If I use a 13.6mm drill followed by a 14mm tap, there can only be 0.2mm thread depth in that threaded hole. That does not feel right for a 0.8mm pitch tap. I would have expected to use a drill bit 13.2mm (14mm minus the pitch).
> 
> Conversely, if I'm about to put a 14mm die on a 14.8mm diameter tenon, it will have to remove the entire 0.8mm surplus, in addition to the depth of the threads that it's cutting. I would have expected to make a tenon that is 14mm (the major diameter after cutting with a 14mm x 0.8 die).
> 
> Am I missing something?
Click to expand...



The difference being in form vs cut taping.  I just did a spot check and the numbers I listed above is for form taping.

Truth be known in most of our material what really happens is a variety of both.


A quick spot check reveals the following:

Form tap for a M14 x 0.8 with 70% thread you need a 13.619mm or 0.536" drill bit.

Cut tap for a M14 x 0.8 with 70% threads you need a 13.273mm or a 0.523" drill bit.


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## duncsuss

Interesting -- I didn't even know there were two different types of tap 

The 13.273mm value for drilling fits perfectly with what I'd been doing: major diameter minus pitch would be 100%, so increase the drill size a smidge to get to a 70% thread. (Or in my case, rely on the tailstock not being perfectly aligned with the headstock to get that extra couple of thou.)


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## edstreet

Softer material typically can be formed. I,e. Ebonite, plastics, these types will yield stronger threads if the can be formed vs cut.  As in shaped/formed from existing material. The sweet spot when threading any given material is when you have the perfect balance between the two.  I.e. Ebonite loves to move when you thread it. By molding it then cutting it you have stronger threads than if that by just pure cutting. 


Hard material I.e. Brass works poorly when forming threads and needs to be cut. This is a true test of the life span of the tap/die. Also the very reason taps must be sharpened over time.


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## duncsuss

edstreet said:


> Softer material typically can be formed. I,e. Ebonite, plastics, these types will yield stronger threads if the can be formed vs cut.  As in shaped/formed from existing material. The sweet spot when threading any given material is when you have the perfect balance between the two.  I.e. Ebonite loves to move when you thread it. By molding it then cutting it you have stronger threads than if that by just pure cutting.



Thanks. Does this mean that the same tap can be used for both forming and cutting threads, or are the "leading edges" shaped differently?


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## edstreet

There is a difference.  Left is a cutting tap, right is a forming tap.

Technically the cutting tap when used on material that is flexible does both cut and form.  The cutting edge does cut but also compresses the material, after the cut it has a bounce back effect and the longer grooves of the tap helps shape and form it.  This is why the die is more difficult to use in some materials as the die has less forming threads and relies more on cutting action.


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## edstreet

Drill tap (imperial)  = Major - (0.01299 * % treads) / TPI

Drill tap (metric) = Major - (% threads * pitch) / 76.98

The M14 x 0.8 case

drill size => 14 - (70 * 0.8) / 76.98 = 13.27254 mm
divide by 25.4 for inches = 0.522541"
on the drill charts we see 0.5156 is 33/64 (equal to a 13mm)


----

The M12 x 0.8 case
drill size => 13 - (70 * 0.8) / 76.98 = 11.27254 mm 
divide by 25.4 for inches = 0.443801"
on the drill charts we see 0.4375 is 7/16 (equal to 11.11mm)







The above is the cutting formula


p.s. in case anyone cares, yes I was wrong and yes I corrected myself


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## magpens

THANK YOU very much for this very helpful discussion, Ed.


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## duncsuss

Ed -- thanks for introducing me to the concept of thread forming versus cutting (versus the combination of both.)

I'm fairly certain my MT2 drill chuck is off-center enough to provide at least an extra 0.073mm when I use a 13.2mm drill bit :biggrin:

Would it be correct to say that a #2 (plug) tap tends more towards cutting than a #1 (taper) tap?


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## edstreet

The chamfer styles (taper, plug, bottom, semi bottom, modified bottom and others) has a direct and profound impact on how, when, where and why the tap cuts the material.  

The lead is the only part of the tap that cuts threads.  The longer the lead, the more tapped holes the tap can produce.  For this reason it's important to apply the proper length tap lead to the part being tapped.

Because the lead is the only part of the tap that cuts, this feature gives the tap its sharpness so it is very important for the lead to be ground properly, concentric,  with equal relief,  properly timed to each flute.


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## whteglve

Hey Ed! I just want to apologize to you in front of everyone, kind of, for my ugly and uncalled for post the other day. I shouldn't have acted like that. Please accept my honest and sincere apology.


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## magpens

Some characters in your post are not coming through, to me at least .... I presume that quotes were intended



edstreet said:


> The chamfer styles (taper, plug, bottom, semi bottom, modified bottom and others) has a direct and profound impact on how, when, where and why the tap cuts the material.
> 
> The lead is the only part of the tap that &ldquo;cuts&rdquo; threads.  The longer the lead, the more tapped holes the tap can produce.  For this reason it&rsquo;s important to apply the proper length tap lead to the part being tapped.
> 
> Because the lead is the only part of the tap that cuts, this feature gives the tap its &ldquo;sharpness&rdquo; so it is very important for the lead to be ground properly, concentric,  with equal relief,  properly timed to each flute.


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## edstreet

Fixed.  I posted that in bed with the ipad and whteglve, no need for the apology.


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## whteglve

I need to get a yay or nay count from those that ordered an M12 die the TiN coating. If the cutting edges aren't coated please let me know. I'm going back and forth with the vendor on how to fix this problem. We might be able to get them recoated, but I'm NOT making any promises. 

Please just post "Complete" or "Incomplete".


----------



## Quality Pen

Incomplete


----------



## Ironwood

I have received my 14mm tap and die.
Neither of them appear to have any coating on them at all.


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## whteglve

Ironwood said:


> I have received my 14mm tap and die.
> Neither of them appear to have any coating on them at all.



PM Sent!


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## edstreet

If anyone is interested in what goes on in the coating of these tap/dies this video will help you greatly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDXMIo9qgFU

note the process they go through and the level of attention they have to pay to the parts


----------

