# What is political??



## MesquiteMan (Nov 9, 2010)

Recently, as moderators, we have locked a couple of different threads that we determined to be political after discussion in the moderator's forum.  Naturally, this made a few people mad but it also made a few people happy.  Both of the recent threads could be argued that they were not political DISCUSSIONS since they were jokes and non-partisan.

My question is, where should we draw the line on political threads/posts?  What would you guys like to see?  The AUP states:



> *Discussions of politics and religion are not allowed.*



I would like you feedback on these questions.


What constitutes a political DISCUSSION?
Does it need to be partisan to be considered political?
Are jokes and comments about any country's government considered political discussion even if they are not partisan?
Are statements/commentary about a country's government considered political?
I really do not know where to draw the line.  I know what we have done in the past and I have my opinions which I will not share at this time so I don't taint the feedback.  I also know that we have lost at least one very long time contributor who I have had direct conversations with who stopped participating due to some political jokes.

Please, let's keep this on topic and have a good discussion.  Please just state your opinion and do not debate another's opinion in this thread.  My only objective with this post is to get feedback so we can better serve our fellow IAP member.  Thank you!

Curtis O. Seebeck
IAP Head Moderator


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## Gary Max (Nov 9, 2010)

Heck your post is going to get deleted Curtis-----we have new super mods.
Oh in case you haven't heard you lost several members today.


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## Seer (Nov 9, 2010)

I learned long ago Politics & Religion will cause more disagreements than anything else talked about so I do not join in them when there are family get togethers I have some relatives who can be total eggheads so I move on to more interesting subjects.
To myself political discussions should be on a political discusion board and not where friends get together to talk about what we created, did or destroyed that day lol.  Politics will offend more times than not but I do see the uniqueness of this post Curtis.  I hope it becomes constructive and genuine.
Jerry


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## ldb2000 (Nov 9, 2010)

I think it all depends on how specific it gets . a generalization or commentary on government waste or ineptitude is ok but an attack or commentary on a specific person or policy is not .


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## MesquiteMan (Nov 9, 2010)

Gary Max said:


> Oh in case you haven't heard you lost several members today.



Gary_* I *_have not lost any member.  _*WE*_ (as in you and me and every other member of IAP) may have lost friends whow we call members but I have not.  I am not IAP, I am just part of the management that is trying to make this place as good for as many members as possible.


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## Gary Max (Nov 9, 2010)

Boy I hope you feel better after using those big letters--I was impressed-- I just thought it was inportant that everyone knows what's going on.


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## bitshird (Nov 9, 2010)

Curtis I think one difference might be the difference between a discussion and a comment, a discussion will have members joining in with their opinions, But a comment may be a completely different animal. such as  Please don't take this as either a but some one commenting on President Obama's dancing with the kids in India, would seem to be acceptable provided it didn't get ugly. 
I honestly don't think jokes or satire are really political discussions. 
I don't know whether being political requires a partisan stance, but we should be allowed to poke fun at some of these people not the parties, just some of the people.
And I do think that "Statements" about a country's Government have to be considered political discussion as soon as a second party joins into the post, then it's become a political discussion!
but I think there should be some satirical comments allowed as long as they aren't overtly offensive, after all that's what we have a government for, cause some times we just need a good laugh.


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## mredburn (Nov 9, 2010)

The first question I have is. Is a single post, the one that starts the thread defined as starting a discussion? If it is, then according to the AUP its forebidden. Although such posts rarely offend me I dont see the need for them. We have plenty of humor posted without going to to politics of any sort. 

Mike


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## Padre (Nov 9, 2010)

I think talking about politics is political.  Whether it be Republican or Democrat.  Be it about a certain senator, president or house member.  Political is political.


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## Gary Max (Nov 9, 2010)

Some folks just got tired of the new way things are being done here.


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## MesquiteMan (Nov 9, 2010)

Well Gary, it looks like we are damned if we do and damned if we don't.  Some poeple griped and moaned that I was not doing enough and I needed help.  I listened and now have 2 extra moderators.  Every decision that is made is thoroughly discussed in the mod forum as was suggested by you, even.  Now that i have help, and less stuff is getting through the cracks, some folks aren't happy.  It really gets old.  We are trying to listen and ask for feedback.  That is the entire point of this thread.  It seems that with you, nothing I do is ever right.


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## Gary Max (Nov 9, 2010)

Curtis profanity is not allowed on IAP---where are the Super Mods at when you need then


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## steeler fan1 (Nov 9, 2010)

Hi all;

I'm new here, since mid year. I certainly don't have a dog in this fight. Truth is, almost anything said, (or typed), is potentially going to offend someone. The way its going soon the mods will need to review every topic before it is published to determine if its offencive or not. 

Sad state of affairs IMHO. 

I'll just go back to being a lurker:frown:.

Carl


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## Gary Max (Nov 9, 2010)

Oh----personal attacks are now allowed----??????????


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## MesquiteMan (Nov 9, 2010)

Not seeing any profanity in my post, Gary.



> damned (damd; _also, as in oratory_, dam*′*nid)
> adjective
> 
> 
> condemned or deserving condemnation


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## DCBluesman (Nov 9, 2010)

In terms of religion and politics, err on the side of over-moderating. The damage done in the past should not be repeated. Religion and politics are specifically banned topics. As for humor or satire, it's funny unless it is your perspective being satirized.


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## MesquiteMan (Nov 9, 2010)

I am also not seeing any personal attacks.


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## Gary Max (Nov 9, 2010)

I am done with this tread----------------one of the rules written in stone
You can't beat city hall.


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## ed4copies (Nov 9, 2010)

Gary Max said:


> Some folks just got tired of the new way things are being done here.




Therein lies the problem.

A thread is moderated and people react.  So have I, in the past.  Probably will in the future.

It's a balancing act.  Long ago, a person I considered a valued member said there was too much politics.  I really did'nt see it---but bothered him--he left.

We all need to weigh the friendships against the "humility".  Being "moderated" implies you did something "wrong" in the eyes of the community and it was purged.  (I'd like to use a common phrase, but it may be against the terms, so we will settle for---"irritated")  Irritated me when I was the target, long ago.

So, we have to accept, "Can't please ALL the people..... maybe ANY of the time".

I continue to believe you are never HURT by what is said, unless you  allow it to HURT you.   But, we live in the age of the "perpetually offended".

So, we should probably moderate to the lowest common denominator.  We allow 13 year olds to view the site.  While they hear much worse language at school, we set a lousy example if they see it here.  So, keep politics completely out.  Keep religion completely out.  Moderate all commerce so no one gets offended.  

Make sure to wash your hands, before you type,  so no one sees dirty words!!!

Sorry, Curtis----YOU and the other mods can't please ALL the people.

But, the more sanitized it gets, the more politically correct we will be---and the less opinionated and interesting.  But, that is the world we live in.  

"Resistance is futile"      Assimilate!!!!


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## EBorraga (Nov 9, 2010)

How Bout Them Cowboys. Got a new coach now.


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## ed4copies (Nov 9, 2010)

Chip,

When you delete a post, you are telling the writer he was "wrong".  Grown men typically don't react well to that.  Some worse than others.

So, to delete is to become supreme.

And, likely to remove members.

Rules is rules.  Human nature is human nature.  After you lead teams long enough you learn to be more aware of the "employees"  you want to keep, and to treat them gently---egos can be fragile.


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## USAFVET98 (Nov 9, 2010)

I have no problem with it as long as the views are conservative!  Lol. J/k

I personally think that this forum and it's members remains an enjoyable place to visit because of the lack of political discussion! 

So I propose a jokes section where anything goes! I am sure all of us on here enjoy a good laugh and will post jokes tastefully. If someone takes offense, tell us an we will remove it.  

Any thoughts?


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## Padre (Nov 9, 2010)

ed4copies said:


> Chip,
> 
> When you delete a post, you are telling the writer he was "wrong".  Grown men typically don't react well to that.  Some worse than others.
> 
> ...



How true.  That's why I'm glad I'm not a moderator.


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## hunter-27 (Nov 9, 2010)

The "current me" would prefer to stay clear of most topics like this but this thread has started a burning in the "former me" that I need to get out before I have a relapse of sort. One of the complaints I see certain people express is how threads need to stay focused on the original post. Now in this thread I have seen several of the "complainers" do exactly what they are complaining about. No names were mentioned and no specifics were pointed out so............. If the shoe fits, WEAR IT. If not, THROW IT OUT. Ok, that is out of my system. To answer the original post, I think it needs to be zero tolorence as a simple joke, comment, or reference to something deemed funny by one is sure to offend another. My opinion, others will most certainly vary.


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## KenV (Nov 9, 2010)

I see very few political pens -- and fewer posted.   If we stay on topic a bit better we can avoid the flames and hard feelings.   

Lets get the commentary back to pen making materials, processes, techniques, and use.  Any political commentary engraved on a pen might be appropriate if shown on the posted photo of the pen.


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## witz1976 (Nov 9, 2010)

ed4copies said:


> Gary Max said:
> 
> 
> > Some folks just got tired of the new way things are being done here.
> ...



Nice Star Trek reference Ed


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## jimm1 (Nov 9, 2010)

You know, I still consider myself only a visitor to IAP, but I do add things occasionally. My last two thread-starts got deleted though. One dealt with a cartoon that appeared on the front page of the Sunday comics and dealt with school prayer. The other dealt with how senior citizens are treated worse than prisoners. Pertaining to the first, I'm a school teacher who sees where prayer could only help things. As for the 2nd, my family owns a nursing home and I have a 93 year old mother. How anyone can be offended by these posts is beyond me, but... oh well. I don't get mad, I certainly respect others' opinions and I still come back for ideas. 
There are some comments that I just shake my head at and move on. There are some I simply laugh at, not because they are funny, but because I can't believe what I am reading. And yes, I do look for certain people who I know are eventually going to write something stupid. 
Isn't that what we are all about? People, you need to relax. Sit back and just imagine how things are for those with less than us. There is so much junk going on in this world and we give so much attention to faceless people. My bet is that so much of the discussion on these forums would never come out if we all were in the same room.
Many of us have asked for prayers... I will still do my very best to answer and honor that request. Many of us are seniors. I bet we have more in common with each other than anyone knows. Do we really have the time to complain? *Not me. *


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## johnnycnc (Nov 9, 2010)

MesquiteMan said:


> Recently, as moderators, we have locked a couple of different threads that we determined to be political after discussion in the moderator's forum.  Naturally, this made a few people mad but it also made a few people happy. You'll have that. Abe Licoln had a similar quote.  Both of the recent threads could be argued that they were not political DISCUSSIONS since they were jokes and non-partisan.
> 
> My question is, where should we draw the line on political threads/posts?  What would you guys like to see?  The AUP states:
> 
> ...



I wish you the best of luck in your quest. At the end of this discussion, you may wander off and get blind drunk. It is your only sane recourse.

John
♠


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## Padre (Nov 9, 2010)

hunter-27 said:


> The "current me" would prefer to stay clear of most topics like this but this thread has started a burning in the "former me" that I need to get out before I have a relapse of sort.  One of the complaints I see certain people express is how threads need to stay focused on the original post.  Now in this thread I have seen several of the "complainers" do exactly what they are complaining about. No names were mention and no specifics were pointed out so............. If the shoe fits, WEAR IT.  If not, THROW IT OUT.  Ok, that is out of my system.  To answer the original post, I think it needs to be zero tolorence as a simple joke, comment, or reference to something deemed funny by one is sure to offend another.  My opinion, others will most certainly vary.



Spot on.


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## alphageek (Nov 9, 2010)

jimm1 said:


> You know, I still consider myself only a visitor to IAP, but I do add things occasionally. My last two thread-starts got deleted though. One dealt with a cartoon that appeared on the front page of the Sunday comics and dealt with school prayer. The other dealt with how senior citizens are treated worse than prisoners. Pertaining to the first, I'm a school teacher who sees where prayer could only help things. As for the 2nd, my family owns a nursing home and I have a 93 year old mother. How anyone can be offended by these posts is beyond me, but... oh well. I don't get mad, I certainly respect others' opinions and I still come back for ideas.



Jim,
I just want to clarify one thing here.. You're 2nd thread was not deleted, just locked.  Its still there, go ahead an look if you want.

Secondly, it surprises me that you can't see how anyone could be offended by  it.   You own a nursing home, and wouldn't be offended if you were told that you are treating people under your care poorly?  If not, I'm glad you are able to take that in stride, but not all can.

Dean Charlier
Assistant Moderator


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## joefyffe (Nov 9, 2010)

MesquiteMan said:


> Recently, as moderators, we have locked a couple of different threads that we determined to be political after discussion in the moderator's forum.  Naturally, this made a few people mad but it also made a few people happy.  Both of the recent threads could be argued that they were not political DISCUSSIONS since they were jokes and non-partisan.
> 
> My question is, where should we draw the line on political threads/posts?  What would you guys like to see?  The AUP states:
> 
> ...



Political or non political, if a persons skin is so thin they can not distinguish a bit of humor from a harassing confrontation, they should not get close to a lathe.  They may get a piece of a splinter in their little body.  My feeling is let it all hang out.  Follow the guidelines but forget about if someone does not agree with how you follow the guidelines.  Of course, i'm one who took a sons name off my email list because he got snotty with me about my email to him!   I'm not going to be offended by any jokes about either party, even though I'm proud to announce I am Faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr   right wing!  Take it or leave it!!!  Curtis, I'm not a bad guy but after 29 years of law enforcement, this crap gets to me!


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## ed4copies (Nov 9, 2010)

Curtis, I'm not a bad guy but after 29 years of law enforcement, this crap gets to me!

Gee, I wonder how you got to be "right-wing"???

Thank you for your service!!!


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## jimm1 (Nov 9, 2010)

alphageek said:


> jimm1 said:
> 
> 
> > You know, I still consider myself only a visitor to IAP, but I do add things occasionally. My last two thread-starts got deleted though. One dealt with a cartoon that appeared on the front page of the Sunday comics and dealt with school prayer. The other dealt with how senior citizens are treated worse than prisoners. Pertaining to the first, I'm a school teacher who sees where prayer could only help things. As for the 2nd, my family owns a nursing home and I have a 93 year old mother. How anyone can be offended by these posts is beyond me, but... oh well. I don't get mad, I certainly respect others' opinions and I still come back for ideas.
> ...


 
Okay, my turn...As a moderator, I would think a little more out of you.  I mentioned that my family owns one, not me. But I'll tell you this... I challenge anyone to match what we do with our residents. There is a wait list a mile long. Dignity for all, no matter what age. That's how should be. I'll admit, I have seen absolutely sickening places for our most experience seniors. That's what gets me. We see what many do, and we go the other way.
See that side Dean.


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## aggromere (Nov 9, 2010)

Whenever a discussions turns partisan it can turn ugly.  When we venture into that territory it's fruitless for all involved.  I can think of nothing more partisan than different relgious and political ideologies.   I say ban them completely right down to members signature lines and slogans.   Eliminate the Casual Conversation forum, keep everyone on point and let's make some pens!


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## jimm1 (Nov 9, 2010)

aggromere said:


> Whenever a discussions turns partisan it can turn ugly. When we venture into that territory it's fruitless for all involved. I can think of nothing more partisan than different relgious and political ideologies. I say ban them completely right down to members signature lines and slogans. Eliminate the Casual Conversation forum, keep everyone on point and let's make some pens!


 

*PERFECT POST*


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## joefyffe (Nov 9, 2010)

Gary Max said:


> I am done with this tread----------------one of the rules written in stone
> You can't beat city hall.



yippee!!!


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## Smitty37 (Nov 9, 2010)

*Political is politics*

The problem is that there are a lot of fuzzy areas.  
We should avoid stating positions for or against aby particular office seeker or political party.  

We should not give our opinion about particular office holders, pro or con. 

But, that being said, there are things that are considered by Congress that affect us both as individuals and as business folks.  

For instance, there is under consideration introducing legislation that would force all internet sellers to collect sales taxes for the buyers state.  There are quite a few states that would like that to happen. 

42 of the 50 states have sales taxes and they are all different.  

If that legislation is introduced should we have to "pass" on discussing it because it is "politics"?

I think before a thread is stopped a common sense look should be taken, a lot of threads if they don't actually provoke intense debate should just be left alone.


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## Russianwolf (Nov 9, 2010)

You guys realize we've had this discussion before and some of the people that complain are the some of the first to support

a) having political or religious references in there signatures
b) having prayer requests

Now I'm not against either of these things, but how do they really fit in with the ban and being moderated. 

I'm offended by applying one version of moderation to one area and a different criteria in another. It smacks of ....... I can't think of the appropriate word but it's not consistent.  

Now I personally think that anything that refers to a political party (regardless of party) is political. I asked that several posts that mentioned parties be removed from my 'Go Vote" thread for that simple reason. But, if you want to go by the strict definition of the rule, the entire thread should have been removed as its topic was political. Voting is Politics. We were voting for Politicians. Now, to my knowledge, no one was offended by the premise but there you go.

I recall a thread on 9/11 that I commented in and since I mentioned religious groups, specifically to say something along the lines of "don't blame the whole for the actions of a few misguided people in the group". The post was deleted, and while Curtis knew what I was getting at erred on the side of caution. I don't hold that against Curtis, just thought it was sad that it needed to be done. I expect better from those reading it than to twist its meaning. But I guess there are those that will.


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## DRScherz (Nov 9, 2010)

The moderators here are in a lose-lose situation.  There is absolutely no possible way to please everyone.  You could ask 100 different people the question "What is political?" and could get 100 different answers.  Phrase the question differently and get another 100 different answers.

I feel that the topics posted here should only relate to penturning.  If you want to have a political discussion or share something that you consider funny, then post them at a board that relates to politics or humor.  We don't all share the same political views, or have the same sense of humor but we DO all share a love of penturning.

Personally, I am not offended by anything short of a personal attack.  I understand that there are as many differing opinions on any given subject as there are people.  I may not agree with all of them, but we all have a right to have them whether I agree with it or not.


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## jimm1 (Nov 9, 2010)

EBorraga said:


> How Bout Them Cowboys. Got a new coach now.


 
Good job Ernie. And thanks. Many of us needed that post.


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## dgscott (Nov 9, 2010)

Hmmm -- good questions, interesting responses.

There's actually a simple solution to all this -- remove the "Casual Conversation" Forum and the problem goes away. I realize that if you ask those who are easily offended not to click on any posts in that Forum, they'll be offended, but you could put a big warning up -- *"Enter at your own risk! There may be things stated in posts in this Forum with which you disagree!"* 

OR you could ask people to click on a disclaimer before they enter the Forum -- *"I certify that I am emotionally mature and non-reactive."*

But then, people might get offended.

Doug


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## Smitty37 (Nov 9, 2010)

*Hmmm*



bitshird said:


> Curtis I think one difference might be the difference between a discussion and a comment, a discussion will have members joining in with their opinions, But a comment may be a completely different animal. such as Please don't take this as either a but some one commenting on President Obama's dancing with the kids in India, would seem to be acceptable provided it didn't get ugly.
> I honestly don't think jokes or satire are really political discussions.
> I don't know whether being political requires a partisan stance, but we should be allowed to poke fun at some of these people not the parties, just some of the people.
> And I do think that "Statements" about a country's Government have to be considered political discussion as soon as a second party joins into the post, then it's become a political discussion!
> but I think there should be some satirical comments allowed as long as they aren't overtly offensive, after all that's what we have a government for, cause some times we just need a good laugh.


 
So does that mean if I say that I think Social Security should have gotten a COLA increase for next year .... that's OK, but if someone says they agree it is now political?


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## alphageek (Nov 9, 2010)

Smitty37 said:


> bitshird said:
> 
> 
> > And I do think that "Statements" about a country's Government have to be considered political discussion as soon as a second party joins into the post, then it's become a political discussion!
> ...



I think there maybe a typo there, smitty... If I read that whole sentence that you highlighted it doesn't quite make sense.. if you replace the first "discussion" with "because", it makes much more sense.

Your example is either political or it isn't.. the only thing that changes when someone agrees or disagrees is that it becomes a discussion.. before that it was just a statement.


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## LizardSpit (Nov 9, 2010)

One vote for a political/religous forum.  No tolerance outside the forum.  in the forum, let the fur fly.  This way If I want political/religous conversation I now wher to go, if I don't I know where to avoid.  Personally I will avoid the forum.


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## Smitty37 (Nov 9, 2010)

*Not so*



alphageek said:


> jimm1 said:
> 
> 
> > You know, I still consider myself only a visitor to IAP, but I do add things occasionally. My last two thread-starts got deleted though. One dealt with a cartoon that appeared on the front page of the Sunday comics and dealt with school prayer. The other dealt with how senior citizens are treated worse than prisoners. Pertaining to the first, I'm a school teacher who sees where prayer could only help things. As for the 2nd, my family owns a nursing home and I have a 93 year old mother. How anyone can be offended by these posts is beyond me, but... oh well. I don't get mad, I certainly respect others' opinions and I still come back for ideas.
> ...


 Hi Dean...unless we are thinking of two different threads there was no specific nursing home mentioned.  Hence no one should have felt they were being insulted unless their Nursing Home fit the description. :redface:


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## mbroberg (Nov 9, 2010)

This is one of those issues that is nearly impossibloe to adequately address.



MesquiteMan said:


> What constitutes a political DISCUSSION?
> 
> Two or more people talking about a political issue. The problem I perceive the moderators having is that on this forum someone might post an innocent comment that can later turn into a discussion. What is the motive of the poster when the comment is posted? Is the comment expected to be read and no comments left?
> 
> ...


These will always lead to a discussion.

This is a Pen turning site. If I want to know someone's opinion about a political issue, or hear a political joke there are other places I can go.

On the other hand, some people need to learn to better handle opinions that they don't agree with. Opposition does not always need to be an argument.


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## Smitty37 (Nov 9, 2010)

alphageek said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > bitshird said:
> ...


 
That is the point...if it's political at all, before someone else came in it was a political statement. The question is...is a political statement OK until it becomes a discussion? If the 2nd party just expresses agreement is that a discussion?


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## alphageek (Nov 9, 2010)

Smitty37 said:


> Hi Dean...unless we are thinking of two different threads there was no specific nursing home mentioned.  Hence no one should have felt they were being insulted unless their Nursing Home fit the description. :redface:



I disagree Smitty.. Someone WAS insulted, and no-one can judge how someone else should feel.   You don't need to fit a description to be insulted.


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## IPD_Mrs (Nov 9, 2010)

It is a shame to say but I think politics, religion and race should not be allowed.  It doesn't matter how good meaning and without malice the post is, you will most likely offend someone.  This is too good of a place to see it ruined over posts with this type of content.  It may be "over moderation" but a polite sorry but the post must be deleted or closed is much better than a thread that blows up.


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## BRobbins629 (Nov 9, 2010)

Any time a policy is set or change is made, whether in this forum or anywhere else, there will be 3 groups of people.  Those that like the change, those that don't, and those who don't care.  If the ones that don't choose to leave, they believe the downside of the policy or change outweighs the benefits of staying.  As for this topic, I'm probably in the group that doesn't care but I do like black and white rules and have never had a problem with any moderators decision.  It's Jeff house - he sets the rules and appointed trusted moderators to enforce and interpret if necessary.  If Jeff wants a vote, lets vote, but I'm having a hard time with these long drawn out threads unrelated to penmaking.  They turn me off more than posts folks are complaining about.


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## B727phixer (Nov 9, 2010)

+1 do away with casual conversation forum


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## Scotty (Nov 9, 2010)

Good grief. I don't post much, but I do look at this site several times a day.  I don't look at posts that don't interest me.  I am almost sorry I clicked on this one.


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## Smitty37 (Nov 9, 2010)

*I wonder*

I wonder what it is that causes some folks to take offence at something appearing in a thread (other thas perhaps a personal insult directed at them) that they have complete control over whether or not they read it. 

If you don't like political or religious posts and you see one (and there are not a lot of them) then exercise your right to not read them. Why on earth let such a small and insignificent thing upset you? For goodness sakes, the world does not owe it to you to never say anything that you don't want to hear. And, I seriously doubt that a political opinion expressed on this or any other forum is going to cause you any personal harm.


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## ed4copies (Nov 9, 2010)

alphageek said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > Hi Dean...unless we are thinking of two different threads there was no specific nursing home mentioned.  Hence no one should have felt they were being insulted unless their Nursing Home fit the description. :redface:
> ...



With several hundred "reads", "Someone" can become insulted every thread.  Most "someones" don't hit the yellow triangle to complain.  So, their thoughts go unregistered.

We have grown to be a society that responds to those who "run to the cop" when things don't match THEIR agenda.

Stop responding to ONE complaint!!  You can see how many views there were--if there are two or more complaints, weigh it as a percentage of the viewership and use JUDGEMENT to determine what should be done.

Not as EASY as enforcing the rules, but  more responsive to the "social mores" of this society.


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## Displaced Canadian (Nov 9, 2010)

I think in the realm of politics it is better to error on the side of caution.
A political joke will be funny to one and an call to arms for another.
A political statement will always lead to a discussion.
Any political discussion will be partisan
In my opinion it takes about 1 post to go from a civil discussion to a heated argument.
Just my opinion.


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## Dudley Young (Nov 9, 2010)

:frown:These will always lead to a discussion.

This is a Pen turning site. If I want to know someone's opinion about a political issue, or hear a political joke there are other places I can go.

On the other hand, some people need to learn to better handle opinions that they don't agree with. Opposition does not always need to be an argument. 
__________________
Mike Broberg
Interim Activities Manager
I agree. This is getting sickening.


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## Rmartin (Nov 9, 2010)

ed4copies said:


> With several hundred "reads", "Someone" can become insulted every thread. Most "someones" don't hit the yellow triangle to complain. So, their thoughts go unregistered.
> 
> We have grown to be a society that responds to those who "run to the cop" when things don't match THEIR agenda.
> 
> ...


 
I agree!


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## Smitty37 (Nov 9, 2010)

*You can....*



B727phixer said:


> +1 do away with casual conversation forum


Why can't you do that for yourself...there are dozens of forums that for one reason or another I never look at.  Just don't read it.  Seems pretty simple to me.


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## jimm1 (Nov 9, 2010)

I heading to the Jack Daniel's Distillery this weekend. I usually go there to buy barrels to cut up for everyone. This time I may just have to buy some real Jack. I need a drink. *AND I HAVEN'T HAD A DRINK IN 21 YEARS*.


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## alphageek (Nov 9, 2010)

ed4copies said:


> alphageek said:
> 
> 
> > Smitty37 said:
> ...



Ed, I never meant to imply that there was only 1 complaint.   I'm not saying there how many there was nor am I going to discuss those complaints in public.   We DO use judgement, and have discussions on a large percentages of actions.   As for as "easy" as enforcing the rules, I WISH!   The only reason I used the term "someone" complained was to negate the statement that "no one" should have felt they were being insulted.

Everyone has an 'agenda' ... its funny - I'm in a Lou Tice class this week for work.  He uses a term for this "scotomas"  (google is gonna get a work out on that one).   We all act with our own "views" of the truth.

This thread is about helping the moderators see more into the memberships views.   That way we (moderators) can work with Jeff to be sure that the the moderators are following Jeffs rules (since this is his house) and clarify the rules if necessary so that we can use our judgment BETTER.

Personally, I thank everyone for responding with their views on the topic - hopefully we gather enough information to be useful.

Dean Charlier
Assistant Moderator


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## Russianwolf (Nov 9, 2010)

If I am correctly reading between the lines (and if I'm wrong it won't be the first time) These are two of the threads being alluded to in the original post (one by me).

http://www.penturners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=70701&highlight=economy

http://www.penturners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=70437&highlight=economy

Neither weren't exactly political as both were satirical comments on fixing the ailing economy. No parties were mentioned, no politicians (unless you count a dead one) were mentioned. I wouldn't expect either to lead into an actual discussion of the merits of the "plans" since they are both so far fetched.

Should posts of this type be banned?


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## alphageek (Nov 9, 2010)

Smitty37 said:


> B727phixer said:
> 
> 
> > +1 do away with casual conversation forum
> ...



Actually, if you want to - you can... Go into the User CP, then in options you can select forums that you don't want to see in your "new posts" feed and then if you never intentionally go into them, you'll never even see the posts.


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## Smitty37 (Nov 9, 2010)

*Well then...*



alphageek said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > Hi Dean...unless we are thinking of two different threads there was no specific nursing home mentioned. Hence no one should have felt they were being insulted unless their Nursing Home fit the description. :redface:
> ...


   My opinion is that in that case you do.  If I say "All parachuitist are crazy" that is no reason for any individual parachuitist to be insulted.  To disagree yes, to be insulted no.   The reader has to use common sense and good judgement too.


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## jeff (Nov 9, 2010)

Gary Max said:


> Some folks just got tired of the new way things are being done here.



Did any of these people ever call ME? I doubt it.


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## joefyffe (Nov 9, 2010)

Smitty37 said:


> The problem is that there are a lot of fuzzy areas.
> We should avoid stating positions for or against aby particular office seeker or political party.
> 
> We should not give our opinion about particular office holders, pro or con.
> ...




GOOD POINT!


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## B727phixer (Nov 9, 2010)

Smitty37 said:


> B727phixer said:
> 
> 
> > +1 do away with casual conversation forum
> ...



Smitty...I was simply responding to Curtis and his request for "what is or is not political...seems to be a touchy subject, this would solve the problem if we focused on pen making.


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## Russianwolf (Nov 9, 2010)

jeff said:


> Gary Max said:
> 
> 
> > Some folks just got tired of the new way things are being done here.
> ...



Jeff, this is an odd statement.

I was once asked by a manager to leave a store when I asked for change for a $10 bill (I think he thought I was my brother who he had history with). I didn't call the owner, I just stopped doing business there.

Does it matter if they contacted you or not? If Gary is right they are gone. They may have spoken to your "Managers".


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## David Keller (Nov 9, 2010)

This site continues to amaze me...  I keep coming back because I enjoy making pens and seeing the wonderful work that others do.  I've developed some friendships on the forum, and I consider the site to be an asset to my development as a turner.  

With that said, I have a serious suspicion that there are a number of members here that need to grow up.  If that statement offends you, you're very likely to be one of the members to which I'm referring.  IMO, this site does not exist to complete the perfect world in which any of us might wish to live.  If your personal Xandadu is disrupted by a thread or post on a pen turning site, you've got some serious issues that go way beyond the ability of any moderator.  Not everyone agrees with you...  Not everyone shares your same beliefs...  That's one of the things that makes life interesting.  

Finally, I don't believe anyone has a _right_ to post on this site.  It's a privilege to be able to communicate with people who share a hobby that you enjoy.  From my perspective, I fully support the moderators decisions to delete/lock/ban at their every whim even if that means this is my last post.

I firmly believe that everybody needs to cinch of their big girl/big boy panties, and get on with life.  End of sermon.


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## Gin N' Tonic (Nov 9, 2010)

jeff said:


> Gary Max said:
> 
> 
> > Some folks just got tired of the new way things are being done here.
> ...




What's your phone number? I'll give you an earfull ! :wink:


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## WIDirt (Nov 9, 2010)

David Keller said:


> This site continues to amaze me...  I keep coming back because I enjoy making pens and seeing the wonderful work that others do.  I've developed some friendships on the forum, and I consider the site to be an asset to my development as a turner.
> 
> With that said, I have a serious suspicion that there are a number of members here that need to grow up.  If that statement offends you, you're very likely to be one of the members to which I'm referring.  IMO, this site does not exist to complete the perfect world in which any of us might wish to live.  If your personal Xandadu is disrupted by a thread or post on a pen turning site, you've got some serious issues that go way beyond the ability of any moderator.  Not everyone agrees with you...  Not everyone shares your same beliefs...  That's one of the things that makes life interesting.
> 
> ...



This has to be the best statement I have read in this entirely over-debated subject. So you don't agree. I don't agree. They don't agree. Welcome to the human condition! This is a pen making forum, First, Last, and Always. Block the threads you don't like and get on with your lives.....


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## MesquiteMan (Nov 9, 2010)

Friends...please...

Let's get this back to the original questions I asked for input on.  In this thread I am not interested in people being insulted, what forums should or should not be here, whether or not politics should be allowed on IAP, whether or not we are doing a good job moderating, etc.  I really just wanted opinions on what you think constitutes political discussion.

Here is a definition form an online dictionary.

po·lit·i·cal  (p
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





-l
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




t
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







-k
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




l)_adj._*1. * Of, relating to, or dealing with the structure or affairs of government, politics, or the state.
*2. * Relating to, involving, or characteristic of politics or politicians: "Calling a meeting is a political act in itself" (Daniel Goleman).
*3. * Relating to or involving acts regarded as damaging to a government or state: political crimes.
*4. * Interested or active in politics: I'm not a very political person.
*5. * Having or influenced by partisan interests: The court should never become a political institution.
*6. * Based on or motivated by partisan or self-serving objectives: a purely political decision.


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## tbroye (Nov 9, 2010)

I know what Scotomas is.  Learned a new word and now I know a new medical issue to spring on my Doctor.  I will leave it up to the mods to decide what is and what isn't.  It does seem lately that they seem to have a hair trigger for closing or deleting a thread.  Maybe in these time thats what is needed.  Good luck guys.


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## Smitty37 (Nov 9, 2010)

*Yup*



jimm1 said:


> I heading to the Jack Daniel's Distillery this weekend. I usually go there to buy barrels to cut up for everyone. This time I may just have to buy some real Jack. I need a drink. *AND I HAVEN'T HAD A DRINK IN 21 YEARS*.


Well you haven't missed much..I have a beer or two a year just to remind myself how bad that stuff really tastes.


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## Pioneerpens (Nov 9, 2010)

What constitutes a political DISCUSSION?   POLITICS

Does it need to be partisan to be considered political?  NO

Are jokes and comments about any country's government considered political discussion even if they are not partisan?  YES

Are statements/commentary about a country's government considered political? YES


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## Smitty37 (Nov 9, 2010)

*I agree*



Russianwolf said:


> If I am correctly reading between the lines (and if I'm wrong it won't be the first time) These are two of the threads being alluded to in the original post (one by me).
> 
> http://www.penturners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=70701&highlight=economy
> 
> ...


 
No...I don't think either is really political and did not invite political discussion just talk about the government and unless we have a congressman or two as members here no one would have taken an opposing side.  Shoot, there is no opposing side.


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## Jmhoff10500 (Nov 9, 2010)

I think we should go wiht the "18" rule, anything i cant understand as an 18 year old shouldnt be mentioned...

Which means the only things political you can post is:

Anything about cute girls in office
Anything about how school days need to be shorter to "save money":wink:
Why the state takes so much money from my hard earned pay check (maybe we should avoid that too)
And or anything having to do with how the presidents dogs have their own  facebook/cellphones... Other than that, no go!

But in all seriousness, I think if it gets "Triangled" 3 times or more it should be deleted or locked because if one or two people report it, it might just be a personal preference, but if three or more people report it, its probably a pretty avoidable subject... That way the people can decide what goes and what stays and the moderators don't have to be the bad guys cause they are just following the "Rule of 3"...

Or some system like that...


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## Smitty37 (Nov 9, 2010)

*I understand.*



B727phixer said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > B727phixer said:
> ...


 
I'm sure you were and my response was intended more for everyone than you in particular.   If the casual conversation forum is too political for folks who want to concentrate on pen making they can just not read it.


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## DCBluesman (Nov 9, 2010)

Why do the few think they need to change the forum to suit their needs when the mission of the site was decided by the founders?



> *Mission Statement: *
> 
> *The International Association of Penturners (IAP) is an organization that recognizes pen making as a craft with unique and distinctive character. Pen making encompasses a vast array of techniques, materials, technical knowledge, and novel approaches to produce a functional, aesthetically appealing writing instrument. The goal of the IAP is to give pen makers a place to enhance their skills, share experiences, and promote the art of pen making. *


If you want to discuss other things with people you find interesting, take it private. Is that so hard to understand?


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## ericw95 (Nov 9, 2010)

Russianwolf said:


> a) having political or religious references in there signatures
> b) having prayer requests
> 
> Now I'm not against either of these things,.


 
Other posts go in the gray area and has been stated, this is a pen turning forum.  Now if someone wants to get their as (oops can't use that word or I may get reported) er butt up in the air and leave because their post was deleted/locked, they need to grow up.  This is to be a civil forum and the mods do a tremendous job, lose-lose, but they do the best within the rules.

If you don't like the rules and the way they are enforced, then volunteer to be a moderator and do a better job then the saints we have doing it now.

Thanks mods for are you do.


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## Russianwolf (Nov 9, 2010)

ericw95 said:


> Russianwolf said:
> 
> 
> > a) having political or religious references in there signatures
> ...


 Okay, I don't get it.

This has what to do with what you quoted?


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## USAFVET98 (Nov 9, 2010)

I have an idea, just stop! We are all thinking of ways to fix a problem that shouldnt exist. Everyone knows that you cant talk politics with family or friends because it could always start problems. I consider this forum a second home and many of the members as my friends. That being said, I would never want to hurt or offend any of my friends.

We have some members who are minors and really do not need to be reading this stuff that aggravates us. They are kids here to learn and share a common interest.

Nothing should be changed as we all signed up as members knowing the rules, including the unwritten ones. 

I am very happy to be a member of this forum and proud to be able to call so many members my friends.

So instead of debating it, just dont do it. Lets keep the peace. 


I still think a humor section should be added with a notice stating the contents may be offensive to some and to enter at your own risk.



By the way, anyone know where that missile that launched this morning went? Or even more important, where it came from? LOL Just thought id thrw that out there..


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## bruce119 (Nov 9, 2010)

Boy what is going on here. Things seem they were cursing along fairly good. I guessed I missed a lot leave the computer for a couple hours and come back to this. We got to back to pens sharing ideas making pens and blanks.

And as far as the casual conversation forum I never really visited it much in the past. I've always thought of it as a place for off topic bar room talk sort of speak.
.


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## Andrew Arndts (Nov 9, 2010)

My Father always told me, "If you want to get ahead in life, DO NOT talk about Religion, Politics or Sex."   
That being stated, We have not so much evolved but gotten older.  
Back in the 70's we has Sit-Com show like All in the Family, MASH, Chico and the Man, The Jeffersons, Alice, Sanford and Son,Dukes of Hazard, etc. These shows would never be made today because of the content.  
I am a comedian, even I have to be wary of what I say on stage. the Comic Michael Richards a few years ago said some things on stage that got him in a large vat of hot water.  I am not equating what gets stated in the forums being even similar to racial slurs said by a comedian. However people have not a thin skin, they just are sick of the same crap. and no one wants to fix it.
Anyhow, 
_*"Member Conduct:* You may not use any part of the  Service to transmit material that is unlawful, harmful, threatening, abusive,  harassing, tortuous, defamatory, vulgar, obscene, libelous, invasive of  another's privacy, hateful, or racially, ethnically or otherwise objectionable,  or which infringes upon the intellectual property, contractual, or fiduciary  rights of others._"  
What is Political? I think with points like Defamatory, Hateful, would prohibit certain points. However political statement like _"Communism is the best form of government."_  which is a Positive in the sense that nothing bad per say is being said... yet, this possibly would lead to many points found in Member Conduct in responses to that. 
It is like the old movie I had to watch in Government class 25 years ago. Anyhow I remember this person in the film spewing how Adolf Hitler was the greatest leader in the world on a street corner and how that lead to people kicking this guys arse...  The lesson was, Yes you have a freedom to speak your mind as long as you don't cause a riot or yell Fire in a movie theater.
Now one exception to what ever does come about, is conversation on Sales Tax.  we have sales and dealing with Taxes. is part of the business.

Side Note, I am glad we have such of an outstanding moderators here.  On another woodworking forum there is a person that has been posting pornographic pictures. Doesn't matter why, but their mods don't seem to delete them...


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## CREID (Nov 10, 2010)

Well, after reading quite a few comments here, this thread is quite political
Although I don't post too many comments here, I think most people are pretty friendly here. I was a little concerned about the Cowboys thread but, it has been pretty cordial. And I am a Cowboys fan.
I think you are doing a fine job. My 2 cents is let things go until it becomes (for lack of a better word) violent. Then just delete the thread. People will get the message.
Some people just can't seperate the difference between real life and online life.
Some just take things too seriously, should we punish everyone for one or a few people that can't take a joke. You guys are the boss, we live under your rules, I accept that those rules may change. 
And let's not forget, nobody is forcing anyone to read a post, post a thread or even comment on a thread.


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## ThePenWizard (Nov 10, 2010)

I have been on IAP for a couple of months now and have had a few posts deleted, moved and closed.  When I asked why I was given an acceptible answer.  Now I want to express my opinion on this topic, if you want to talk about politics *POST IT ON FOX 5 for crying out load*.  This forum is for pen makers to discuss making pens, new pen making concepts and other fine handmade items. 
Nuff said!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Billman (Nov 10, 2010)

MesquiteMan said:


> what forums should or should not be here, whether or not politics should be allowed on IAP, whether or not we are doing a good job moderating, etc.  I really just wanted opinions on what you think constitutes political discussion.



I guess when it comes down to it, while I appreciate the reasoning behind forums like "Casual Conversation", I am really here to get, and pass along information about pen turning. If forums were limited to only pens, pen making related topics, and turning in general, it would be fine with me.

You guys are doing a good job of moderating. It is a difficult position, with very little reward.

Here is my take on political discussions... It doesn't even have to be a _disucission_ for it to be over the line in my mind.  A single post with any type of political _statement_ is enough to make me avoid this site for a day or two... And I don't care what side its from.... Looney left, or the wacko right.  While I can appreciate the merits of a debate about sales tax of internet sales, I can guarantee you there will be partisan bickering involved... "They wanna do _____ because they are _____", "Well THEY want to _____ because of _____  _____  _____!" I can hear it all now.... And can see the mods brains melting and running out of their ears as they try to quell it all before too many people fly off the handle and leave for good, and those who have read the mess slowly back away from the site as if they've seen a car wreck.  Political talk is toxic to a site and will slowly kill it, unless the site is political in nature to start with. Here is the bottom line for me on politics and this site: If I wanted to read anyone else's political writings, or discuss my own, I'd go to one of about ten billion other sites that foster a wedge in between people and do it there... Not here.

Defining a political discussion? It's kind of like defining art. You know it when you see it. & One person's art is another person's trash. The mods seem to be well capable of doing their job, but when the goal post is variable, its frustrating to try and please everyone and be consistent.


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## jppensplus (Nov 10, 2010)

Seems to me this IAP site is for discussions about the making of pens and associated topics directly related.  In my opinion, this is not a political forum.  Political ideas and philosophies should not in any way be a part of this site.  We're here to make pens, learn how to make them better, learn of materials available, to share ideas--we're not here to try to influence each other as to how to vote in the next election---


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## jttheclockman (Nov 10, 2010)

I wasn't going to join in on this but the fingers started hitting the keyboard.

First I think for some reason there is a movement afoot here on this site and not sure what has brought it on. I don't understand why all of a sudden we need all these rules and regulations. The more you add the more people you tee off. First advertising, then apoligies galore, then talk of behavior problems and people leaving, then cursing and disguising it and now this. There are many topics that can have huge deabates such as do you believe in Unions, do you belive in the death penalty, and so  on. My point is you are asking questions that there are no right or wrong answers because we all have our opinions. In this particular case it states in the bylaws of the forum, no politics or religion topics...............  Now we have moderators and when chosen there were a unanimous outcry of support and I did not see one negative word spoken. Let them make the desicions as to weather a topic needs to be closed or tidyied up. 

I think Curtis and the other moderators and even Jeff are trying too hard to make this a sterile place. You have the tools at hand as moderators to do what is necessary. It is a thankless job but you volunteered and for this we are greatful. You have your moderator chats when a topic gets touchy and now there are more than one which is good you can get more thoughts and come to a conclusion as to what should be done. Whatever the outcome is we all need to accept the results. Sure we can agree or disagree and if these actions are too much for you then you have the choice to leave. I am sure there is no one that wants this to happen but sometimes our feelings are that deep. To this we all should honor and respect their decision. Will the site move on, yes it will. Will there be a loss yes there will. 


As far as the casual conversation forum, leave it alone. It does serve a valuable part here. We are a family as it is often stated. People come to that forum sharing with us their losses and heartships and also their triumphs and this is needed to get out to the family members to make us feel inspired one way or other. 

My thoughts are to carry on and do the best job possible. You will never please everyone every time. Impossible. I do think though when a topic is deleted or moved that a message is left behind explaining why. This is a soft delete or message. 

Now this is just my thoughts and if people do not agree then I accept that. Now I have to get the fingers to get away from the keyboard.


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## robutacion (Nov 10, 2010)

Geezz Curtis, you should have known that you where going to get the "works" by opening such a thread...!:wink:

As much as I agree with many of the things said here, I disagree with half of them, and that is just the way it is.  Max have mention that things have been done differently here recently, and in part he is right the problem is, are those new ways being positive or a negative for the "back bone" of IAP...??? my opinion, they have been negative...!

Some may say that, these days things are done differently and you "have" to go with it...! really...??? don't think so...!  Some people get confused between freedom and pure stupidity, allowing people to get away with what they want, is certainly the quickest way to get pandemonium...!

I've seen too many forums being destroyed by having or trying to please everyone, creating or opening "Topics" for every consivable  subject there is or people wants, big mistake...!
One of the things that I always like about IAP was the fact that, its "back bone" was not political, and in fact based upon some solid and fair foundations.  Those foundations are the rules that apply within and the genuine focus on what matters about the world of penturning and its evolution in our times.

Sure, lets have topics covering all the new techniques and materials available to us today, the news "toys" and some "tricks of the trade" but, anything to do with politics, religion, race and or any subject that is infiltrated/introduce by someone for further disturbance or provoke argumentation, SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED, period...! there are many other places where they, "who ever" can stir problems.

The true of the fact is that, while some keep reminding everyone that we are all adults and pretty civilized, this is not true tough...!  There are many "kids" among the "adults", and many "adults" among the "kids", and this is not a problem that is affecting IAP only but in fact, most places where people don't have to put their face to what they do or say....! 

It is a kindly mistake to believe everyone know how to utilise the freedoms that we are able to enjoy in our days, some take it for grant others make a really "mock-up" of it, taking everyone around with them...!  

So, how to void this...??? Limit the problem possibilities, by keeping true to what IAP is about, and ABSOLUTELY no other topics that have nothing to do with penturning (general wood-turning would be OK...!).  Make those rules clear and to the point in this regards, the option of not joining is always there...!

Take absolutely no time or effort to be a "SAINT", allow no exceptions to silliness or stupidity and maintain a firm hand of your moderation criteria.

Is this tough, sure is, after all given too much freedom is not working, huh...???  

Has been always my view that quality, is a lot more preferable than quantity,  sometimes you just need to be cruel to be kind...!

NOTE: This post is in direct response to Curtis question, and represents MY OPINION on the subject, and PLEASE, I'm not interested in know who agrees or not, that is irrelevant...!:wink: 

Cheers
George


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## USAFVET98 (Nov 10, 2010)

John,
    Couldnt have said it better myself about the casual conversation forum. We consider this a second family and to be honest I feel really good when im able to help out a fellow member, pray if a member needs support, praise a positive achievement, share my experiences and just a friendly chat with some good friends.

I have helped many members out with getting started, or just working with them for my services. I purchased an item from a member for $250.00 and he said not to kill myself, just pay him when I get it extra. This was months ago and my finances arent too great at the moment. I contact him every once in a while to let him know I didnt forget and he says hes not worried about it and to just pay him when I have it extra. I still havent even used the items.
Friends like the ones I made on this forum do not come into our lives too often. In fact, many people we never experience it.
I said all of that to lead up to this, There are a ton of different forums and message boards out there and they all have arguments, fights, offensive content and lack of interest in making friends on the forums, just acquaintances. I am willing to bet money that at least half of the members on this forum would offer me a place to stay if I was passing though their area.

All of the above mentioned is why I love this board so much and I personally think the moderators are doing a great job. I had a post moved the other day, it happens.

So I am going to close this by not complaining or getting mad, I am just going to say thank you to Jeff, Curtis, Dean and the other moderators who work hard (for no pay) to keep this board going..


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## Reb (Nov 10, 2010)

Funny here's 9 pages of nothing about pens. I can't find 2 pages on how to make a kitless pen.  What am I misssing here?


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## witz1976 (Nov 10, 2010)

I am wondering about a couple of things:

#1 outside of John's recent comment, he is the only person outside the USA who had an opinion on this.  I am curious about the rest of out international community.

#2 I truly hope the people who were offended and or complained about these topics are contributing to this topic.  If they aren't but they continue to complain, they should get ignored.  

#3 and this is really for the mods, of the people who are complaining do they actually contribute anything productive to the Penturning community or do they make a few comments and then complain.  

As for the two recent posts that were locked.  They were a freaking joke.  While they had a political theme in them, their intent were made for fun.  People want to remove the casual conversation folder, I say add a Joke folder.  That way people will realize IT IS A FREAKING JOKE!!  Holy smokes...this is such a sad thread.

I am done.


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## jeff (Nov 10, 2010)

Gin N' Tonic said:


> jeff said:
> 
> 
> > Gary Max said:
> ...



440-829-1829 eastern time zone.
I'd appreciate a PM to set up a time for a call.


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## Glenn McCullough (Nov 10, 2010)

Reb said:


> Funny here's 9 pages of nothing about pens. I can't find 2 pages on how to make a kitless pen.  What am I misssing here?



What this is telling you is that everyones life is about more than making pens. It is about lives that are influenced by politics and religion.  I would not be here often if it were just about pens. I like the people here, and I dont give a hoot about who they voted for or who they prey to. They may be anti-american or a religious terrorist. I dont like it, but as long as they dont profess it here, let 'em in. We have other ways to take care of them. If they do, delete the thread. If someone doesnt like a discussion, they should switch forums. I dont know who we lost because of this, but I havent missed them or I would know who it was. 
No one can offend me unless I allow them to and that will never happen!
I think the moderators are doing a good job, I like the flexibility allowed here as well as a  quick response to pulling a post or thread if it incites attacks.
Good job guys!


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## snyiper (Nov 10, 2010)

I just wonder in this community where it seems some are so thin skinned that jokes offend...yet people have no problem asking for prayers but no one closes those threads, religion is religion period. I would hate to see the good points end such as requesting prayer but yet a cartoon about prayer in school is deleted due to religious content. Put jokes and prayer request in separate forums that way if these topics offend you can stay out. Let people vent, if you are thin skinned stay out if you can take a shot on your belief once and awhile in the name of humor then come on in. I think we just have too many people with reasons to complain. Remember you do not have to read every post in every forum. Some of us will agree to disagree the others will try to get distasteful things deleted.


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## nativewooder (Nov 10, 2010)

What a waste of time!


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## mbroberg (Nov 10, 2010)

joefyffe said:
			
		

> after 29 years of law enforcement, this crap gets to me!



Joe,

Were you a Deputy?    Deputy Fyffe?

Just wondering.


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## tomkerr (Nov 10, 2010)

this thread is like a car wreak,you want to look away but you cant.
I want to stop reading but i cant,just curious on how far this is goin
to go ?


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## scotian12 (Nov 10, 2010)

Hi folks....I would think by now that the moderators and Jeff have enough input on how to admend their policy, make a new one or do nothing. Its time to close this thread and get back to pen making. These constant threads on these topics are starting to wear a person down. I think I will not open the casual conversation threads for a while. Thanks   Darrell Eisner


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## penhead (Nov 10, 2010)

Amazing how much some things never change...anyone remember the pickle pen..??


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## BigguyZ (Nov 10, 2010)

OK, I'll throw my 2 cents in.  

I think that a lot of these issues could indeed be solved by removing the Casual Conversation forum.

There's an upside and a downside to this.  Removing the forum removes the conversations that cause these issues and makes the pure focus of the site to be Pen Turning and just Pen Turning.  

However, the Casual Conversation forum also is where we can all get to know people on a personal level.  The Casual Conversation forum is where we can develop friendships through sharing experiences (or conversely develop enemies).  

I dunno, I'd lean towards killing that forum more than anything.  I do think the tone has changed for the foum in the last 3 years.


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## Chasper (Nov 10, 2010)

I offer the following response to the original post.  I've only addressed points two and three, but I believe I cover the first and fourth points as well.  Additionally I point out that the entire body of a post, including the signature line, appears with each polsting.  I feel that political and religious sentiments should be barred from this the signature lines as well as within the posts.  

Here are my views on the issue, thanks for the opportunity to comment.


_Does it need to be partisan to be considered political?_ 
No.  Partisan sentiments are at the core of political discussions, but the full range of political connotation goes far beyond a partisan position.  Ridiculing, bashing or even simply pointing out legitimate internal conflicts within our governmental infrastructure is a political discussion.  Infrastructure includes local, state and federal governmental officials and agencies, law enforcement at all levels, military, and especially political parties.
Example:  If someone asks about collecting sales tax and I respond that there are stupid tax laws in (un-named state), then I’m turning a legitimate question into a political discussion.  I could say that the tax laws in that state are tricky to negotiate and that the enforcement is aggressive, then it would not be a political statement.  The harsh value judgment “stupid” takes it out of being informative and makes it political.  

_Are jokes and comments about any country's government considered political discussion even if they are not partisan?_
Usually they are, especially when the brunt of the joke is intended to point out a political position.  If the content of the joke is more historical than political (did you hear the joke about George Washington’s horse?) then it is probably not making a political point,  The politics can be implied as well, if I were to post a picture of someone at a political rally who was holding a sign that made it evident he really didn't have a clue, that would be political.  Humor comes in many forms from biting sarcasm to rolling on the floor laughing; all forms can be political.  If a political joke or commentary is outrageously funny or absolutely true, it is still political.


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## jttheclockman (Nov 10, 2010)

See Curtis, you still got no answers to your questions and we are on page 12. Good luck.


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## PenMan1 (Nov 10, 2010)

I know sports. 
In baseball, one of the best hitters that ever lived hit over 700 home runs, yet this same player struck out THOUSANDS of times.

A pitcher that wins 20 games in a season (over a 160 games are played in season) is considered an "ACE". Only one pitcher in every 500 pitchers ever pitches a perfect game.

The best batters ever retired with a lifetime average of well below 50 percent....again a player with a 35 percent average is a legend.

Even with "replay review" in football, 20 percent of the calls are still wrong.

In professional sports, only the best of the best even get a chance to compete.

In an association that allows veterans, rookies and in fact, anyone who owns a computer to post, are we not "overreaching" to expect every post, every member and all moderators to be perfect on every occasion?

IMHO, we all just need to be more tolerant of our members. If someone offends you, don't read their posts. I dread the thought of a forum that promotes the freelflow and exchange of ideas becoming a nanny state.


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## maxwell_smart007 (Nov 10, 2010)

I disagree, John - I think there are a lot of good answers in here amid the rubble!  

You are right, however - it's time to get this conversation back on track.  I thank everyone who's chiming in to help us figure out how to define this tricky word, and how to moderate better.  We lost members when we didn't delete political threads, and we've lost members for deleting political threads.  This is why Curtis has posted this discussion to gauge how to best please the forum membership.  

The rules say absolutely no politics - there is no 'except for...' or 'funny or cheeky politics allowed' in the rules...but if we're expected to be lenient when jokes arise, you're asking for a lot of interpretation.

The clearer the rules are, the better - which is why I like the 'no politics' rule.  If we do not allow any politics on the site, then it's an easy one to moderate.  The issue comes when people start posting borderline politics - or if we allow political comedy - then the issue of the 'slippery slope' develops. 

This is where the question arises - what defines politics.  If we have a clearer understanding of what 'political' entails to the masses, then we have a better idea about how to moderate political threads. 

To me, politics is defined as anything relating to the government, the ideas or actions of government, or the actions or ideas of political parties or individuals in politics.   I think that if one is criticizing the government or government programs, then one is speaking politically.

Keep in mind that I'm not American, and thus have no stake or say in American politics - I view partisan political discussions from an outsider's view.

Andrew 
assistant moderator


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## turbowagon (Nov 10, 2010)

Here is a potential solution to the politics issue, which some other forums have adopted.

create a Sub-forum "Political Playground," which can go largely unmoderated.

If the topic of a Casual Conversation thread heads towards politics, move it to the PP forum.  The thread is not deleted, so no one gets offended about that.   :tongue:

You can please some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you cannot please all of the people all of the time.


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## bitshird (Nov 10, 2010)

Gary Max said:


> Some folks just got tired of the new way things are being done here.



Then Promote your web site , you can get a professional company to do a SEO and sign up as a Pay Per Click like all the other big shots.
Remember this is business for a lot of us, not just the ones with plenty of wood.


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## Timbo (Nov 10, 2010)

turbowagon said:


> Here is a potential solution to the politics issue, which some other forums have adopted.
> 
> create a Sub-forum "Political Playground," which can go largely unmoderated.
> 
> ...



I like this suggestion.  I'm not going to define what is political...most of us really know when we're crossing that line.  I'm one for letting people express their opinions...at the proper time and place.  If people want to talk politics let them have at it in the "Political Playground" sub-forum.  Since I don't have to visit that forum to look for pen relate stuff, I'm a happy camper.


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## jkeithrussell (Nov 10, 2010)

The low level of discourse on this thread is a good example of why I've posted a grand total of twice in more than six months.  Because of the eagerness of many members to display incivility, I support a bright line enforcement of the existing policy of no political or religious discussions, period.  The moderators are more than capable of making the judgment call as to which threads or posts violate the policy.  Anything short of a bright line rule simply enables the drama queens who wish to take every opportunity to rant and berate other members.


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## BRobbins629 (Nov 10, 2010)

Politics is like pornography.  Difficult to explain sometimes, but you know it when you see it.  Trying to get a better definition is admirable, but IMO unlikely.


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## BigguyZ (Nov 10, 2010)

BRobbins629 said:


> Politics is like pornography.  Difficult to explain sometimes, but you know it when you see it.  Trying to get a better definition is admirable, but IMO unlikely.



Yeah, but the latter of the two is much more fun!  :biggrin: (J/K- as we all know, politics is much dirtier and more seedy than the other)

Seriously though, it's not something easily defined.

For instance, I saw a post saying happy birthday to the USMC.  Is that political?  The Marines are a part of our military, which is a part of the government...  Support for our military and what they do can sometimes be partisan...  

I don't think it's political, per say, but you never know how it'll be interpreted.


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## jttheclockman (Nov 10, 2010)

Timbo said:


> turbowagon said:
> 
> 
> > Here is a potential solution to the politics issue, which some other forums have adopted.
> ...


 



Why would you want to have another forum on a site that has no relevance to pen making. You are opening up even more of a hole for people to fall in and out of. Just because people should realize you maybe entering into a forum that has contraversy doesn't mean that people won't take it to heart and will carry over into other areas of the site. To me I vote (oh that is politics) no to the political forum. 

Andrew set aside the Canadian aspect because if there were more Canadians here I am sure that would have its own political debates too. Being international every government has its problems and the people complain. To me I see not one answer in here that says what politics is difintely. We all have our thoughts and if that is what you were after then you got them. You said it also. The rules say no politics and no religion. Case close and yes it is that simple. Stop trying to make it something it is not. We will have to all live by your and other moderators interpretation of what politics is. Good luck with that.


PS I noticed I need spell check badly.  Maybe we can work on that????


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## mbroberg (Nov 10, 2010)

To those who want a seperate forum for political discussion:

Www.uspoliticsonline.com
Www.arguewitheveryone.com

For religious discussion try

Www.religiousforums.com

A google search will get you many more.  

For the best pen turners site on the internet, www.penturners.org
Please, let's keep it that way.  No politics, no religion, just friends and pens.


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## CabinetMaker (Nov 10, 2010)

I don't come to this forum to discuss politics, I come here to discuss and learn about woodworking in general and pen making in particular.  If I want to discuss politics I go to a different forum where the rules regarding political discussion encourage vigorous discussion without profanity.  Profanity will get you banned.

That said, this forum has an off topic forum that should allow people to discuss politics and religion because they are such important parts of our lives.  Profanity should be forbidden resulting in posts being deleted.  When a thread becomes overly heated with much flaming of other members taking place the thread should be deleted.  

We can discuss these things as long as we keep it civil and out of the wood working threads.

So what is political discussion?  Discussions of candidates for office or ballet initiatives or amendments.  Get out the vote threads will inevitably turn partisan and that should be allowable as long as it remains civil.

Finally, this forum belongs to the owner.  He and the moderators he appoints are the final arbiters of what is acceptable and what is not.  If in their opinion a post or thread crosses a line then they should take whatever action they deem appropriate.  It is a tough situation for them as any action they take will always result in somebody getting angry.  I think the mods have done a fairly good job of trying to be fair and let some discussion run.  But their comes a time when they are forced to take a stand and make decision.  Those decisions will sometimes require a new interpretation of an existing rule.  That is their job and once they make their decision, it is final and should be respected by the members.

Finally, each of us knows what our pet peeves are and what sets us off.  If you see a topic come up that really gets you worked up then it is probably best to stay away from that thread.  The best way to avoid running afoul of the rules is to stay away from the situations that are likely to spur you into making posts that will get you in trouble with the mods or other members.


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## jimm1 (Nov 10, 2010)

mbroberg said:


> To those who want a seperate forum for political discussion:
> 
> Www.uspoliticsonline.com
> Www.arguewitheveryone.com
> ...


 
Mike, That's awesome. Great find.


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## txbob (Nov 10, 2010)

*Folks, the solution is real simple..........*

At the top of every page of this forum it says "International Association of Penturners."

If it isn't related to pen making, don't post it. This forum is about pens and how to make them. Just pens. The one exception I would make would be to keep the "Other Things We Make" forum, as at least it's related to turning. Simple projects like seam rippers and pepper mills are good learning aids for new turners. 

While I might care about your family members that need prayers, or your pets, or what you think of the Dallas Cowboys, or the latest jokes, I don't want to read about it here. I come here to learn about making pens. If I'm interested in any other subject I'll go somewhere else. I really don't care about your religion or politics, and never want to read anything about them here, including in your signature line. This is the IAP, remember? Pens and things related to making pens. It's a really simple concept. 

Let me comment on one of my pet peeves: No one is "entitled" to a tutorial. Really!! The guy with the new idea isn't required to teach you how to copy his work. Pictures and instructions are NOT required within 48 hours. You might have to figure out how to do it for yourself. Even if you ask politely, he has every right to keep his techniques to himself. He's already given you the idea and proved that it can be done. Go figure it out for yourself.

I was the 20th person to join the IAP, so I've been around here a long time. I log on several times a day to read the posts, but I'm about done. The IAP has changed to a much more aggressive place.

Well, enough already. I'll go back to my corner and be quiet.

txbob


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## JerrySambrook (Nov 10, 2010)

Curtis, Andrew, Dean, and Jeff,

Sorry. This thread really did get hijacked.

Any item that can have more than one view is something that can be deamed political.
An older person told me a good thing to remember many years ago.
"You put more than one person in a room, and politics always comes out, even if you are just talking about going to the movies"

So, if there is to be one, then the best course of action, IMNSHO, is to remove the casual conversation, and ALL the tag lines below peoples' signatures.


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## VampMN (Nov 10, 2010)

Okay, here's my opinion, for what little it's worth. I have seen comments saying that, "If you don't like it, don't read it." I think these people are missing the point. I think it would be far more appropriate to say, "If it's not within the rules, don't post it."

IAP has a set of rules. If you post something political or religious in nature, you are breaking the rules. But worse than that, you are disrespecting Jeff, the Moderators, and the entire community, by thinking that you are above having to follow those rules. 
If you want to post something, and you aren't sure if it could be considered political or religious, it probably will be. If you still want to post it, shoot a pm to a Mod and ask what they think. 

As far as Curtis's questions:


What constitutes a political DISCUSSION? *Any post containing anything political in nature.*
Does it need to be partisan to be considered political? *No*
Are jokes and comments about any country's government considered political discussion even if they are not partisan? *Yes*
Are statements/commentary about a country's government considered political? *Yes*
I want to say a big THANK YOU to Jeff, and all the Moderators, for doing everything they can to keep this place sane. I know it's not an easy job.


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## Phunky_2003 (Nov 10, 2010)

What constitutes a political DISCUSSION? *Any post political in nature.*
Does it need to be partisan to be considered political? *No*
Are jokes and comments about any country's government considered political discussion even if they are not partisan? *Yes*
Are statements/commentary about a country's government considered political? *Yes*
I've read this entire thread.  Wasted a good 5 - 10 minutes. 

All I can say is.......... SIGH.

Going back to the hobby I enjoy.  

Oh one more thing.  This forum has a family atmosphere that has made it one of the best forums on the net.  The friends and people I have met are truely great people.  I'd offer anything I have to anybody that needed it.  I've given things to people here to help with getting started to raising funds for others in need.  If you remove the casual conversation forum you will lose that family atmosphere.  I dont post as often as I would like, I do read most all posts.  Some make me shake my head and walk away for awhile.

I dont get along with all my relatives.  I am sure others dont get along with all their relatives.  I dont think anyone could expect everyone to get along on a forum.  I have no answers for the direction the forum has been going lately.  We've lost a great deal of members for one reason or another.  Even early in this thread it was stated we lost more members.  I hate hearing that.  Every member, it doesnt matter if they are attempting their first pen or their 2000th, is a valuable member of this community.


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## darcisowers (Nov 10, 2010)

is there a way to keep the casual conversation posts from hitting the "top ten" on the home page?  I almost never read that forum, unless I get sucked into it from the home page.  That way the casual conversation posts can be there for those that want/need the outlet, but that the folks that come here for PEN ADVICE aren't sidetracked.  

But I also think that there should be a zero tolerance on political posts as well as anything else specifically called out in the rules.  And folks who personal attack (either privately or publically) should be put on probation.  

IAP is supposed to be a *friendly* place where people come to share ideas and ask for help.  Not a place where there is so much bickering going on.  I've really stepped back in my reading here, because there always seems to be someone griping about someone/something, and my small amount of computer time doesn't need to be spent sucked into the drama.  but I find that the drama is like a train wreck - you don't really want to see it, but at the same time, you also can't stop watching!  

The moderators really have a thankless job.  But I truly appreciate that they are trying to make this a better place.

a few bad apples really do spoil the whole bunch.


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## MesquiteMan (Nov 10, 2010)

Yes, you can keep CC posts from showing up in the new posts section.  Go into your profile and choose options.  Scroll down to the bottom and choose the forums that you want to exclude.  I am going to make a tutorial on how to do it so that the folks that think the CC section should go away can make it go away for themselves without making it go away for others who enjoy it such as myself.


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## Smitty37 (Nov 10, 2010)

*maybe*



Chasper said:


> I offer the following response to the original post. I've only addressed points two and three, but I believe I cover the first and fourth points as well. Additionally I point out that the entire body of a post, including the signature line, appears with each polsting. I feel that political and religious sentiments should be barred from this the signature lines as well as within the posts.
> 
> Here are my views on the issue, thanks for the opportunity to comment.
> 
> ...


 
There are those who would disagree with you.  Saying that I think a law that is on the books is stupid, in my opinion is not a political statement any more than the remainder of your statement is.


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## turbowagon (Nov 10, 2010)

MesquiteMan said:
			
		

> Yes, you can keep CC posts from showing up in the new posts section. Go into your profile and choose options. Scroll down to the bottom and choose the forums that you want to exclude. *I am going to make a tutorial on how to do it* so that the folks that think the CC section should go away can make it go away for themselves without making it go away for others who enjoy it such as myself.



NO TUTORIALS!!!

(just kidding)   :wink:   :biggrin:


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## JerrySambrook (Nov 10, 2010)

I would like to point out here that not all posts need to be political or religious to be offensive.
Some on here try to advance our thoughts to their agenda, which could be construed as political as well though.

I would like to thank someone who posted on this same page as being one who is like that, and is, in my OPINION, part of the problem


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## JaxCopper (Nov 10, 2010)

Leave out the politics on the discussion boards.  If one friend wants to tell another a joke, he can send him a private message.


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## Smitty37 (Nov 10, 2010)

*Good idea*



MesquiteMan said:


> Yes, you can keep CC posts from showing up in the new posts section. Go into your profile and choose options. Scroll down to the bottom and choose the forums that you want to exclude. I am going to make a tutorial on how to do it so that the folks that think the CC section should go away can make it go away for themselves without making it go away for others who enjoy it such as myself.


 
I am totally amazed at how many folks on here are saying "if they don't talk about what I want to talk about...shut them up" I don't read anything on this site that I don't want to read.  No one except the moderators have to.  

This forum clearly says it is "Casual Conversatiion, off topic, general chat.  That is fair warning to anyone that you might not find all pen talk on this forum.


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## MesquiteMan (Nov 10, 2010)

OK, this was an exercise in futility for the most part.  I asked that  you simply state your opinion and not debate other's opinions in this  thread.  Many did not listen to this request.  I also asked that only  the question get answered and to please keep it on topic.  Well, that  did not happen either for the most part.  All I was asking for was help  defining what is considered political.

For the folks who did answer the questions and provide good feedback, I  sincerely appreciate it.  For the folks who did not bother to even try  to follow my request...thanks:frown:

Once again, I was NOT asking if we should allow politics.  I was looking  for the community's definition of what it considers political.  WE ARE  NOT GOING TO START ALLOWING POLITICS.

Curtis O. Seebeck
IAP Head Moderator


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