# Carbide vs. HSS



## rickjake (May 8, 2013)

It will be a while before I ready to buy some turning tools. I am researching the pros and cons of each? Or do you need both? I only plan to do pens and calls in hardwoods, acrylic, antler. I did a search and didn`t come up with anything? I am sure its been discussed before. Thanks,

Rick


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## ed4copies (May 8, 2013)

Hi Rick!

HSS is used in many types of configuration---skews, gouges, parting tools and scrapers.
To my knowledge, carbide is limited to scrapers.

"Scraping" is limited.  Some plastics will break quite easily when scraped.  However, a carbide tool is much more efficient if you are turning animal bone. (Very dense)

So, it depends WHAT you intend to turn and how comfortable you are with different tools to accomplish the task.


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## 76winger (May 8, 2013)

To me, HSS tools are fine almost everything. I did find myself forced to add a carbide tool when I run into some really tough Trustone material though where I repeatedly dulled my skew in about 30 seconds.

If you're starting out on a budget (which most of us do), I'd recommend starting out with a 3/4 or 1 inch roughing gouge and a 1 -  1 1/4 inch skew. With wood and most acrylics, you'll be able to do most everything you need with those two tools, then you can add other turning tools as you find a need for them.

Sent from my iPad using Forum Runner


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## Dan Hintz (May 8, 2013)

Carbide tools have the advantage that you can replace the cutting edge when it gets dull... since it dulls at a much slower rate than HSS, you get a lot of life out of an edge.  HSS is cheaper, but you spend a bit more time sharpening.  I have both and use both.


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## wood-of-1kind (May 8, 2013)

ed4copies said:


> Hi Rick!
> 
> To my knowledge, carbide is limited to scrapers.
> 
> ...


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## ianjwebster (May 8, 2013)

I've been turning for about 18 months (bowls, pens, hollow forms etc) and exclusively use Carbide. Tried an HSS gouge on my very first bowl - swopped to carbide for the next one and never looked back. I sell a few of my 'creations' through some of the local wineries and none of my customers seem to know the difference.


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## DigBaddy72 (May 8, 2013)

I use both and love both. I only have two carbide tools. The rougher and the finisher.  I have a dozen mini and mid sized HSS tools, gouges, skews, scrapers, parting tools.  I use them all, it just depends on what I am turning and what I want to accomplish.  I spent about $100 on the two carbide tools, but spent less than that on the HSS tools.  I bought the beginners sets on Amazon and at PSI.


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## mhbeauford (May 8, 2013)

I use both. HSS can be sharpened very sharp, use it on most woods and some plastics. Use carbide on antler, truestone, alligator jawbone, and pieces  filled with gemstone and segmenting with metal or other non wood fills. Sometimes on woods with very wild grain I scrape with a slight negative rake and carbide works well like this, HSS dulls pretty fast. Learn how to use and then use what works best for any given application.


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## jttheclockman (May 8, 2013)

First let me say both HSS and carbide have their place. Carbide tools are not just scrapers. They can be used as a skew or a bowl gouge. You can ride the bevel and do shearing cuts very easily with them. For this you usually use a round head cutter. You do not have to worry about catches because there is no points to grab hold. There are many variety of carbide cutters on the market

Most of us are used to the Easy rougher and tools that are just that scrapers. These are good for taking blanks down in a hurry and yes they stay sharper alot longer.

There are some jobs though that a carbide tool just can not get done. Now you also have solid carbide tools ground to specific shapes so lets not get those confused too.

Give me a good old fashioned skew sharpened and I will be happy. 

I use the carbides for things just as was mentioned and being I do alot of metal inlay work they do save some trips to the grinder. 

To sum up your question. There is no right answer. But whatever you buy, buy quality and you buy once. You buy junk and you buy often. Tools in the arsenal are always a good thing.


I should have mentioned also there is a learning curve with all tools so do not look at it as to which one is easier to use.


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## Sylvanite (May 8, 2013)

Steel will take a sharper edge than carbide.  Carbide will hold an edge longer.

I have both and use both, although I started with HSS and didn't try carbide for years.  About the only material I've turned that I felt needed a carbide cutter was Petoskey Stone.

Regards,
Eric


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## thewishman (May 8, 2013)

I use my carbide tool primarily as a skew, sometimes as a scraper. If I were starting out, I would go straight to carbide. You could add hss tools and learn to sharpen them as you progress. 

It can be very frustrating to have to learn both turning AND sharpening at the same time.


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## ed4copies (May 8, 2013)

wood-of-1kind said:


> ed4copies said:
> 
> 
> > Hi Rick!
> ...


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## ugrad (May 8, 2013)

ed4copies said:


> ADVERTISING would correct it too.
> I know some think it is a dirty word, but education is learning something.
> Educating about a product is called Advertising on IAP.  So, educate us!!



Advertising a product is not the same as educating, sales hype and profit margins are not the best kinds of education.

Regards
Peter


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## wood-of-1kind (May 8, 2013)

Ed, I've done my share in terms of providing some insights into carbide and continue to do so on an individual basis. I have advertised and sold my tools here at IAP. Donated my very first sale of my tool in full to Jeff (IAP). Cav (remember him, lol) purchased the tool. I don't
'educate' as much given the inaccuracies and miscompteptions that some members like to be proponents of. It's not worth the aggravation to set the record straight from my side of the fence.


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## ed4copies (May 8, 2013)

wood-of-1kind said:


> Ed, I've done my share in terms of providing some insights into carbide and continue to do so on an individual basis. I have advertised and sold my tools here at IAP. Donated my very first sale of my tool in full to Jeff (IAP). Cav (remember him, lol) purchased the tool. I don't
> 'educate' as much given the inaccuracies and miscompteptions that some members like to be proponents of. It's not worth the aggravation to set the record straight from my side of the fence.



Peter, 
Believe me I understand!!  But, if you give up, the other side wins.
I'm too stubborn for that.  

Send me some information--I truly WOULD like to learn more!!


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## ed4copies (May 8, 2013)

ugrad said:


> ed4copies said:
> 
> 
> > ADVERTISING would correct it too.
> ...


Couldn't agree more!!  So where does it say you have to "hype" a product to be successful?  Sell benefits, whether you are selling YOUR pens or I am selling MY pen kits.


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## PenMan1 (May 8, 2013)

Sylvanite said:


> Steel will take a sharper edge than carbide.  Carbide will hold an edge longer.
> 
> I have both and use both, although I started with HSS and didn't try carbide for years.  About the only material I've turned that I felt needed a carbide cutter was Petoskey Stone.
> 
> ...



I respectfully disagree. I HAVE HSS tools but rarely use them. No matter the brand of the equipment I use, I can't get HSS as sharp as the carbide tools. AND carbide tools come in just about any imaginable configuration. One of my favorites is the Carbide point tool.

Maybe I'm just doing it wrong, but my carbide tools are MUCH sharper than any of the HSS tools, regardless of brand.


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## PenMan1 (May 8, 2013)

Carbide saves a bunch of time in my shop. First, the pens that have been cut with the carbide tools are usually ready to go to micromesh without using sandpaper. Addtionally, the time spent NOT sharpening tools can be spent making pens.

Both HSS and Carbide have places in my shop, but my "goto" tools are almost always carbide.


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## commercialbuilder (May 8, 2013)

I hardly ever use anything but a carbide cutter that has the radius edge. They last a long time since you get 4 edges per cutter and you can resharpen them on a diamond hone. If you turn with bushings the radius cutter lets you cut next to the bushing easier than a straight cutter and not cut into the bushing. I do use a HSS skew ocasionally but my go to tool is the carbide cutter. A member of the IAP sells them and so do several ofbthe suppliers that are members. The only thing I turn is pens so I do not think you need all the gouges skews etc.


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## rickjake (May 8, 2013)

Thanks everyone, really good topic and points both ways. I think I will go with carbide first Easywood Tools than add some HSS and a bench sharpener after a few pens and game calls. I am a "Made in the USA" guy, but lets face it there is not much left made in USA anymore. I lost a great maintenance job of 15 years to China, best job I ever had! Heck I loved going in, learned something new everyday. NO OFFENSE TO ANYONE, as I do plan on getting the new 12x21 VS Jet lathe and a new Powermatic 14" band saw. 

Thank you friends,

Rick


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## Jeff Leslie (May 9, 2013)

I'll fess up straight away that I own more than 100+ chisels, including 7 carbide tipped tools. 

I turn lots of things, bowls, platters, boxes and more recently (and addictively) pens. 

And you know what? 

I use one chisel in all my pen turning - a Sorby mini roughing gouge. It does everything I need. 

My only caveat is that the tool is Tormek sharp. I would never consider using a carbide tipped tool to my pens. OZ wood is simply too hard and sometime short=grained for scraping work. 

My 2 cents worth.


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## ugrad (May 9, 2013)

ed4copies said:


> Couldn't agree more!!  So where does it say you have to "hype" a product to be successful?  Sell benefits, whether you are selling YOUR pens or I am selling MY pen kits.



I can't remember anyone saying that you have to hype a product to be successful, you were the one saying that advertisement is the same as education, which it clearly isn't.

Regards
Peter


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## jttheclockman (May 9, 2013)

PenMan1 said:


> Sylvanite said:
> 
> 
> > Steel will take a sharper edge than carbide. Carbide will hold an edge longer.
> ...


 
Andy

I am going to respectfully disagree with you and agree with Eric. It is a proven fact that carbide is a particle material and there is different grades of carbide. The finer the grade the sharper the tool can be made but it still is a particle material. The makeup of tool steel is different and can be honed to a keener edge. Again though there is good steel and so-so steel. That is why there is such price differences in tools. I do not know what quality of HSS tools you own but if you have good quality you should be able to honed a razor sharp edge. With that being said carbide holds its edge longer because it is a stronger tougher material than steel. 




PenMan1 said:


> Carbide saves a bunch of time in my shop. First, the pens that have been cut with the carbide tools are usually ready to go to micromesh without using sandpaper. Addtionally, the time spent NOT sharpening tools can be spent making pens.
> 
> Both HSS and Carbide have places in my shop, but my "goto" tools are almost always carbide.


 
Here again is a matter of using the tool of choice. I have been a huge advocate on this site of learning to use the skew because with it, I too can bring my blanks right from turning to finishing with no sanding. As far as sharpening tools and making pens. Come on get real. If you used that line for everything you do then pen making is all you would do. If you are any good at sharpening and it sounds like you are not it takes about 1 minute to put a keen edge back on a tool. If that one minute means another pen in your inventory than you are a pen machine.  I own carbide as well as HSS and both have their place. One over the other is amatter of choice and matter of what you are used to. Controling a carbide cutter takes some practice. 



rickjake said:


> Thanks everyone, really good topic and points both ways. I think I will go with carbide first Easywood Tools than add some HSS and a bench sharpener after a few pens and game calls. I am a "Made in the USA" guy, but lets face it there is not much left made in USA anymore. I lost a great maintenance job of 15 years to China, best job I ever had! Heck I loved going in, learned something new everyday. NO OFFENSE TO ANYONE, as I do plan on getting the new 12x21 VS Jet lathe and a new Powermatic 14" band saw.
> 
> Thank you friends,
> 
> Rick


 

Rick

There is a movement afoot that is bringing jobs back to the USA. It is happening now so be aware of this. Will the American public accept this trend remains to be seen. People talk a good game but money and price always seem to come between buyers. We can stop the run away train and like I said it is happening. we all can jump on board or watch as more jobs leave the country. It is not going to happen over night but one company at a time. 


I do not know what Ed and others are talking about selling and educating. We do not need more advertising to sell and educate us about tools. The net is a fascinating place. Ed wants to start more pen chapters. Heck there are so many turners chapters out there. Join one of these. They are in much more regions than you will ever get pen chapters alone in. Within those turners chapters are pen turners. But you can get a far greater education about turning and the use of all kinds of tools. Pen turning is so basic and unless you get into making of your own blanks it is mundane and down right boring. That is one reason I have chosen to create my own blanks for the most part. But I do realize I need the commercial blanks too. This is just my opinion. 

Here is a video that may help with the carbide vs HSS debate and see what a carbide tool can do. There are so many videos on utube that can give ona real education. 

Woodturning with the New Nano Revolution Hollowing and Detailing System - YouTube


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## jttheclockman (May 9, 2013)

Jeff Leslie said:


> I'll fess up straight away that I own more than 100+ chisels, including 7 carbide tipped tools.
> 
> I turn lots of things, bowls, platters, boxes and more recently (and addictively) pens.
> 
> ...


 
I  just reread this. over 100 turning chisels. That deserves a WOW. You can do an entire project and not have to stop to sharpen any tool. Just change tools. There might be a clinic somewhere that you need to find. Now that is a junkie. More power to you. Another WOW.


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## tim self (May 9, 2013)

We all know what our "go to" tools are.  I'm with Andy on this one.  EVERYTHING I turn gets carbon used on it.  On some I must touch up with a skew but a very small percentage.  Not to disagree with John as I'm no where near a metallurgist knowing the composition of carbon.  I only know no matter what I mount on the lathe, the carbide will cut it.  And with practice can now put a finish on that product that hardly ever needs anything less than 400 to start sanding.  I'd much rather spend my time turning than sharpening.


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## Sandy H. (May 9, 2013)

I have a point of view on this, though it may not be entirely helpful.

I spent a lot of time on a metal lathe and making/sharpening HSS cutters for custom low volume work in basic material was common.  Carbide was 'nice' but for a low powered lathe like mine and 'tough but less than sharp' carbide on that machine was not a go-to solution.  I'm sure there are better solutions available, but a generic piece of insert tooling with a generic insert from J&L was OK at best.

I am fairly new to turning and have started with HSS tooling.  I learned quickly that sharpening is also a must.  The methods and techniques are different for sharpening wood tools vs. metal tools by a country mile and I am not yet up to speed with my wood tooling.  I am learning and I have seen improved results.  Today, I don't approach the lathe without approaching the hone first.  I think I have also found that even on pens that I turn, sharpening once during the process is helpful.  I am trying to learn proper skew techniques also, so there's a whole lot of learning and not as much high quality turning.  I imagine that will change for the better in the near future.

I recently bought a PSI Pen Wizard (or whatever it is called) for my wife to use for 2 reasons.  1:  A lot of people recommended carbide for acrylics and that is all she is interested in.  2:  If she uses the carbide, my HSS will stay in my control. . . .  She started turning a new acrylic blank with the new carbide tool and I was wincing.  It looked and sounded like it was besting the heck out of her.  After a few minutes, I expected her to give up and say it all was terrible and walk away.  I stood by, continuing to wince.  At one point, she stopped to check where she was and turned the lathe off.  She looked over and asked me why I was making a weird face.  I said it looked like it wasn't going well and she said it was.  The blank looked OK and she said it wasn't very violent, even though I thought it was.  She told me to try it and I did.  Still sounded rough, but really was like cutting wax.  I guess a skew on wood vs. a scraper on acrylic just sounds different, but she went on with her pen and finished it up with no real issue.

For me, I think the best plan is to learn how to properly sharpen and to continue to refine techniques with a skew.  I think when I try segments with metal, I will probably borrow 'her' carbide tool just to keep from abusing mine!  I think I will try to invest in at least one high quality HSS skew in the future to see if it is much different than the one I got from Harbor Freight.  We may get another round carbide in the future as well.

So, there's my POV.  HSS and carbide are both worth having.  If you can't/don't want to sharpen, go carbide, as that's really the only choice.

Sandy.


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## vacca rabite (May 9, 2013)

I use both depending on my mood.
When I use HSS, I tend to go to a 3/4 gouge with a broad fingernail grind.  
For carbide, I almost never use scrapers any more, but when I do I use them like a scew.  Usually I use my round carbide cutter.  It is NOT a scraper, tends to act more like a gouge.


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## JD Combs Sr (May 10, 2013)

PenMan1 said:


> Carbide saves a bunch of time in my shop. First, the pens that have been cut with the carbide tools are usually ready to go to micromesh without using sandpaper. Addtionally, the time spent NOT sharpening tools can be spent making pens.
> 
> Both HSS and Carbide have places in my shop, but my "goto" tools are almost always carbide.


+1 for what Andy said.


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## sbwertz (May 10, 2013)

Because most of my turning has turquoise infill, I can't use anything but carbide after the stone is put in.  I use HSS on woods that are brittle or cross grain.


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## jttheclockman (May 10, 2013)

Boy what did people do when there were no carbide tools. We were still making the same cuts in the same woods and metals and stone were used. I guess it is a sign of the times.


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## PenMan1 (May 10, 2013)

When most people think of Carbide turning tools, they immediately think of a radius or square blade cutter. And I confess, I have a Woodchuck pen pro that has made thousands of pens. Wood pens just don't sell very well in the markets I choose to travel, so working with a variety of materials (aluminum, brass, stone, PR, etc) that tool just made sense.

BUT, I have a couple of Benjamin's Best $25 Carbide skews that I absolutely LOVE! I have some big name tools and yet, I tend to do the detail work with the BB $25 skew.

As I said earlier, both HSS and Carbide have their places in my shop. But lately the big, pretty HSS tools could be put in a shadow box to preserve them.


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## kovalcik (May 12, 2013)

I have both styles of tools, but for pens I rely on my roughing gouge and skew. It takes about 1 minute to sharpen both and I get a great finish.  I don't get as good a finish with carbide. I use carbide tools more for hollowing and bowl turning.  YMMV


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