# Bring Back Critiques Forum?



## jeff (May 22, 2007)

Continued from the end of this topic.

Critiques forum: I know this has been hashed over, but I sense some renewed interest. So, 

1- Want it back? 
2- How should it work? 
3- Who wants to run it?


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## PenWorks (May 22, 2007)

1. Nope, No thank you, Nadda
2. SOYP
3. Never

If you want critique, in SOYP, just ask, it's not that hard and live with what comes out of it. When I look at a pen, I look at design, color, overall shape and apperance.
Fit and finish is secoundary. When you look at something that way, it tends to be very subjective to each viewer.


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## JimGo (May 22, 2007)

1) Yes, I liked it, but I don't feel THAT strongly.
2) Just like before
3) Anyone but me.

[]


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## ilikewood (May 22, 2007)

1) I already am my greatest critic
2) Free for all
3) Someone who has no feelings, kills baby animals, and enjoys kicking the dog.


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## GaryMGg (May 22, 2007)

Jeff,

As a fairly new member and a new pen maker, I'm so pleased to see this.
I reviewed the archives to learn what had been discussed previously and saw good reasons on both sides of the argument to this. I've read that things went sour in the past. Knowing some of the many personalities we have here, I can understand how something like this has HUGE potential volatility.

Having said that, I'm convinced it'll be of value to those who wish to partake.

Perhaps something can be added to the profile OR just the Terms of Service and Acceptable Use stipulating posting to a Critiques Forum opens the poster to potential negative feedback on their pen regarding form, fit, function, color-match, compatibility with said kit, et al. The general idea being that critiques must be about the PRODUCT not the PERSON.

Illustrations of appropriate responses could be placed in a sticky if necessary showing good and bad examples of a reply. "It's ugly" might NOT be an inappropriate post if the person mixes several different materials and asks "Do you like how this looks?" Case in point, when I began making pens I asked what folks thought of the shape of a particular slimline. All responded that they didn't like it.

IF the forum could have a special button included that'd notify the moderators when things go awry (as they surely will), the members could police it. Some number of hits (let's start with 5 for argument's sake) by the general members would auto-magically lock the thread AND make it hidden. That'd give y'all a chance to review the material and judge what's occuring without having to watch it all the time. The members could watch it as a community.

An original poster who feels they have been abused/attacked would have to prove their case; it should NOT be up to those doing the critiquing to have to prove their innocence UNTIL AFTER the moderators find in favor of the abuse argument.

Abusing the privilege of critiquing someone's work should result in a ban; some length for 1st abuse, permanent thereafter.

Well, that's my initial thoughts on the matter.

Except, Oh, yeah -- I nominate Ed & Gerry to run it. [] [}][8D]

Gary


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## mrcook4570 (May 22, 2007)

Would it be possible to create a forum in which anyone can view and start a topic, but replies can be made only by a select few anonymous members and the topic starter?  These members would apply for the position and be selected by the administrator and/or moderators and their identities would remain protected.

I think this would eliminate most of the problems associated with the previous attempt at the critiques forum.


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## ed4copies (May 22, 2007)

One more time, in public.

If you ASK for a critique, based on a PICTURE, check your "Hurt feelings" at the DOOR!!!!!

When someone says, "I hate that kit and every kit that ever LOOKED like that kit and some kits that DIDN'T look like THAT kit!!!"  Remember, it's a PEN, NOT your CHILD!!!!!

We are almost all supposed to be MEN!!! (Some ladies, but they don't seem to get involved when they see the boys fighting!)  You asked what was wrong with your pen, YOU got what was wrong with your pen.    NOW, GET over it!!!  Go out and IMPROVE!!!  Or, convince yourself it was a BAD PICTURE.

Just in case there was any doubt, I DON'T want to MODERATE that type of exchange - "Personal" attack seems to get a new meaning when a PEN becomes a PERSON.

But, thanks for the mention.  

Oh, and anonymous criticism is USELESS.  I have GREAT respect for many members here and VALUE their opinions.  If Don Ward says my snakeskin would look better oriented in the other direction - I will change the orientation immediately.  DON KNOWS Snakeskins.    If someone else says the same thing, it would not have the same "convincing" power.

Last, as I have said ad nauseum, Photography was NOT my minor.  Evaluating a pen, based on a picture, is generally VERY difficult, at best.[][][]


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## gerryr (May 22, 2007)

I posted all of this in another topic, but I will try to boil it down.

1.  All photos must be taken with either a plain white or off-white background only.

2.  All photographs must be properly exposed so the viewer can actually see the work.  This includes the color balance being correct or at least not being obviously incorrect.

3.  Three photos would be submitted; one overall photo of the pen and two extreme close ups, say the nib end and finial end.

4.  The photos are sent to some email address like critiques@etc, etc which is in turn forwarded to 2-3 moderators.  Whichever of those moderators has the time, reviews the photos and if they comply with 1, 2 and 3 above, he/she posts the photos with whatever information is provided by the maker.  The maker would be anonymous initially.

5.  People provide real comments, absolutely no "NPGJ" posts allowed.  Also, comments like "that's ugly" are not allowed.  Pople making those kinds of posts would do so at their peril.  The people who post comments would not be anonymous.

6.  After some time period, say 5 days, the maker can identify him or herself and answer questions and get the pats on the back.

Would it work?  I have no idea, but I think it could.  Keeping the maker anonymous for a length of time removes personal biases about someone from the critique, unless of course what the person is doing is a readily identifiable style or technique.  You could even make it a game to see who could properly identify the maker, but only if a valid comment is also being posted.

Oh yeah, I forgot to add thanks for the nomination but I choose not to run and if chose I will not serve.[]  Didn't someone famous say something like that?


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## ed4copies (May 22, 2007)

> _Originally posted by gerryr_
> <br />I posted all of this in another topic, but I will try to boil it down.
> 
> Oh yeah, I forgot to add thanks for the nomination but I choose not to run and if chose I will not serve.[]  Didn't someone famous say something like that?



<center>CHICKEN!!!!</center>

<center>FROM:
THE OTHER CHICKEN!!!</center>


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## skiprat (May 22, 2007)

Probably not necessary. You can already tell several ways how well your pen is recieved.
1. The number of 'Reads' vs the number of 'Replies'
200 Reads with 3 Replies? = Not well liked but folks too kind to say.[]
20 Reads with 3 Replies? = You did well[]

2. You get a reply that has more than 'Nice Pen' You did good[]

3. You get 1 reply from someone whose's work that you admire = you did real good.[][]


But in the end it only matters that YOU are proud of it!![][][]

There is a fine line between critique and insult, sometimes we cross it, sometimes people just think we have.


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## gerryr (May 22, 2007)

Ed,
It has nothing to do with being of the poultry persuasion, I just don't want Bill to think I have no feelings, kill baby animals or enjoy kicking the dogs - he might not sell me any more Cocobolo.[:0][]


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## vick (May 22, 2007)

I like the idea of the critique forum.  Unfortunately it did turn into another show off your pen forum with 90% of the commetns being ata boys.  Also some people were not honest with themselves when they asked for critiques and argued and attaked the critiquers when a critique was done.

Jeff I would glady moderate the critique forum if it had the following rules.  All purely positive comments with no critique would be deleted and the thread starter could not post to the thread once it was started.


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## Randy_ (May 22, 2007)

> _Originally posted by ed4copies_
> <br />.....If you ASK for a critique, based on a PICTURE, check your "Hurt feelings" at the DOOR!!!!!



Why am I agreeing with Ed so much lately??

I'm all for a critique forum!!!!  And I think it should run pretty much like all of the other forums.  Adding standards for pictures, anonymous review boards, numeric posting limits for participation and the like just make for a ugly mess.

Two things that might be worth doing, is setting up that one forum as a restricted forum and making people log on to it specifically for access if such an option is available with this software.  This would do two things, maybe?  First, it would emphasize, perhaps, that the critique forum was a little different than the other forums and secondly, it might allow the board to ban people who abused the forum without excluding them from the full board.  There might also be a disclaimer/warning posted upon logging in that the forum is a critique forum and not a debate forum and that people are expected to offer their critique and move on without debating the comments and suggestions of others.    

With that being said, I know one person who will be more careful about the type of comments offered.  I have learned that fully evaluating a pen from a picture is an impossibility.  Part of it has to do with the quality of the pictures submitted, part of it has to do with the fact that there things you can only accurately evaluate by seeing the pen in person and and part of it is that the camera lens sometimes plays tricks and shows us details that don't really exist.  On the other hand there a good many characteristics of a crafted pen that can be evaluated from a photo and, while some may disagree, my opinion is that enough good can come from comments made about pens in photos that the effort is worth doing and will be of particular benefit for our newer/beginning pencrafters.

I just hope the newbies can stand the "heat" without getting discouraged!![]


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## airrat (May 22, 2007)

Well I agree with Ed, Anthony and Jim.  no need to have a forum where one might be able to "attack" someone they dislike by a negative critque.  I don't post many pictures anymore.  But I would not even visit that forum.  As well if someone wants a critique they can ask for it.

1)NO
2)we have a show off your pens already
3)Not a snowballs chance in phoenix.


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## its_virgil (May 22, 2007)

!. No. I think the SOYP forum works fine for that. If someone wants a critique they can ask. If they don't ask for one, we should not give one.
2. We tried it before and for some reason it was yanked. I still don't know why....I must have missed something. People ask for a critique but when it is not what they want to hear they take it personally.
3.I think Anthony may really want that job.[}], but not me.

I think what we have been doing as of late is working fine. Show our pens. Ask if we want critical feedback. Don't ask...don't tell.
Do a good turn daily!
Don



> _Originally posted by jeff_
> <br />Continued from the end of this topic.
> 
> Critiques forum: I know this has been hashed over, but I sense some renewed interest. So,
> ...


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## Mudder (May 22, 2007)

> _Originally posted by jeff_
> <br />Continued from the end of this topic.
> 
> Critiques forum: I know this has been hashed over, but I sense some renewed interest. So,
> ...




1-yep
2-my way
3-me

[8)]


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## Dario (May 22, 2007)

I vote for Mudder if he want it.  []


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## gerryr (May 22, 2007)

I didn't know we were voting, but I agree with Dario.


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## Dario (May 22, 2007)

> _Originally posted by gerryr_
> <br />I didn't know we were voting, but I agree with Dario.



LOL

We are not, just want to show confidence/support for Scott.

Besides, I am known for yaking for less ...just look at my post count. [:I] lol [}]


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## alamocdc (May 22, 2007)

I'll simply ditto Anthony here. Nuff said.[]


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## jeff (May 22, 2007)

Just so you can study the old Critiques forum, including the original rules (see the sticky posts at the top) I've made it visible.

http://www.penturners.org/forum/forum.asp?FORUM_ID=42


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## jeff (May 22, 2007)

And here's a good example of why the Critiques forum was closed. 
http://www.penturners.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8331

Please note, I'm not picking on Eagle here. It takes two to tango, and both parties in that altercation were guilty of personal attacks.


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## wdcav1952 (May 22, 2007)

Jeff,

Unfortunately, we will never be able to eliminate personalities from posting.  That being said, I personally like the idea of a critiques forum.  Some time back I posted a few pens that frankly weren't up to snuff, so to speak.  One of our members who I consider a true friend saw the mistakes, emailed me to point out the flaws, and asked if things were alright for me.  As a  matter of fact, things weren't alright during that time period.  I took the comments to heart, thanked him, addressed the personal issues and started paying more attention to my work.  I won't name the member, but thanks, Billy.

I like the idea of Scott (Mudder) moderating the forum and choosing a panel of 4 or 5 members with a record of experience to provide critiques.  I would further suggest that members who do not show their own work not be eligible for the panel.  If you won't show your work, I do not feel that you should critique my work.

The panel members could serve for a specified time period, and then rotate off the panel.  Since Scott specified "my way" as to how the forum would run, if he feels one of the panel members is trying to imitate the gay guy with the accent on that "Idol" show, he can boot that panel member.  Let Scott write up a set of rules for the panel, select them and let the fun begin!  BTW, Ed4Copies would not be allowed to critique wood pens, and Rifleman1776 can't critique "plastic" pens. []


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## PenWorks (May 23, 2007)

Boy I wish I could remember the topic way back when.....Once  upon a time, we talked about setting up a critique forum, where the participents would submit a pen photo and be judged by the panel of three chosen members and a designation be given to the turner, as in a rating system. Now that was some good conversation [] I must have still been on drugs, because if I recall, I volenteered to be on the panel [] What was I tinking. [:0]

I still don't understand why the critique is so important. One can not really judge the fit and finish of a pen by the photos that are posted. There are really only a handfull around here whose photos really tell all because they are do good. But the majority of pics,(though good) are hard to tell fit & finish. This is not a knock on the pictures being posted, as we are turners, not photographers.  Only the turner can be the judge of that because it's in his hands. So we would be critiquing, color, shape & style, which again is very subjective. I use to ride RT (who I still miss dearly) about any green pen he made. I just don't like green. I also am surprised when someone posts 4 pens all differnet material, and I think one is really sharp and outstanding and another one is pukey looking and along comes another viewer who thinks the pukey looking one is the cat's meow. So how can we critique someone's work, when all our views are personally subjective to what WE like?


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## edman2 (May 23, 2007)

Well, I've debated about adding my 2 cents.  As a newcomer to this forum and to penturning I admit I have been very disappointed in some of the threads like the ones Jeff had to lock because we would not shut up. I have determined that I will no longer read those type of threads. 

However, a critiques forum could be an asset to new pen turners especially. I have found that the experienced turners on this site have been very helpful. One of the things that impressed me is that the guys and gals that have developed their skill to a high degree would take the time to help the newcomers. I think the critiques forum should be open to those who sign up for it and agree to whatever rules it has.  I would probably never offer a critique but would surely learn from reading the critiques of the more experienced turners even with the limitation of poor photography.

Hurt feelings are a choice. No one can hurt my feelings. I may CHOOSE to let my feelings be hurt by what others say but it's my choice. We need to learn to own our own emotions. If a person can't seperate his "person" from his "work" they should stay away from a critiques forum. I have decided that you may not like my work but I can still be the wonderful person that I am![]

Because I don't own a digital camera I have not posted photos. Someday hopefully!  I would hate to be barred from reading the critiques because I have not posted my own photos. However, when I do get that chance I will request and welcome critiques. I also understand that some critiques will be personal opinion. I can tell the difference between personal opinions and skill critique.  I for one, would love to be mentored by an experienced turner who would care enough about me to tell me the truth.

So, yes, I think a critiques forum could be helpful. Sign up for it. Abide by the rules. Two strikes and you're out! We could learn a lot about being better penturners.

That's my story and I'm stickin' to it!


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## ctwxlvr (May 23, 2007)

1. yes
2. would say a panel of 5 or more picture posting members, I like to see the work of the person criticizing my work.
3. MUDDER


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## jeffj13 (May 23, 2007)

Jeff,

I would be in favor of allowing critique. Whether that takes the form of another forum or within the SYOP doesn't matter to me.  I would leave that up to you.

As a great wise man once said, "As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another".  Having feedback and correction from others, in any endeavor, allows us to be better at what we do and better people.  Without the feedback and critical eye of others, I will not be as good a penturner as I would like to be.

I understand that a critique forum has led to problems in the past, primarily involving one person.  Frankly, while I would not call him a friend (which I consider to be my loss), I didn't have a problem with him, although I can see where others would.  The way I figure it, Eagle was just words on a page and words can't hurt me unless I let them.  I actually appreciated his directness (I don't have much time to read between the lines) and honestly.  That said, I understand that how I react to Eagle doesn't work for everyone and I agree with how the moderators have handled the situation. 

If we are to allow critique, I believe that we would need rules and I would like to suggest the following guidelines:

<b>For those seeking critique:</b>

1.  Check your ego at the door.  Yes, you like your pen and yes it might be the best pen you have ever made.  However, it might still be able to be improved upon.  Don't get your feathers all in a knot is someone doesn't like your pen. Learn from their feedback.

2.  Check your tongue at the door.  Don't lash out at negative criticism.  While it might sting, the critic is not trying to hurt you, simply trying to help you be a better pen turner.  Either accept their advice or not, but don't bite back.  

3.  Don't try to read tone into any remarks.  The written word does not lend itself to conveying emotions very well and can be easily misunderstood.  Don't try to read sarcasm or other emotions into a post or try to interpret what the poster really means.  Just read the words.

4.  Provide detail in how you made the pen.  The more detail you provide, the better chance that someone can offer advise on how to do it better or correct a mistake.

<b>For those providing critique:</b>

1.  Be kind and respectful.  We all know that there are several ways to deliver a message.  Choose the one that you would want to hear.  The golden rule should apply here.  I was always taught to provide two positives for every negative I shared.  While that might not always be possible, try to finds something nice to say along with your criticism.

2.  If possible, offer advise as well as critique.  If you know how to do something better than what was done, share it.  Offering advice with your critique provides hope to the penmaker that he can do it better next time and makes the criticism easier to swallow.

3.  This should go without saying, but no personal attacks or any appearance of a personal attack.  In fact, I would suggest that if you don't like the person asking for feedback, don't post even if you have some feedback to offer.  That way, there can be no misunderstanding.

4.Provide feedback based upon the experience of the person posting.  Someone who has been making pens a long time and/or who sells pens should be treated differently than someone who says "This is my first pen".

I'm sure that there are other guidelines, but this is what I could come up with.

Jeff, if you elect to allow critiques, I'm wondering if the mechanics of the forums allow you to prevent people from posting in certain forums.  For example, could you prevent me from posting in SYOP.  If so, moderators could use this tool to control behavior.  If someone violated whatever rules you established, you could "ban" them from posting in the forum where critique is allows.  That way they could still enjoy the rest of the IAP, but not be able to critique pens.

Wow, this got longer than I anticipated.  Just my thoughts, feel free to agree or not.

Jeff, you run a great forum.  Thank you.  

jeff


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## cozee (May 23, 2007)

Having my work critiqued and judged is nothing new as I have had several pieces of airbrush work done so. I have bombed completely and I have came out on top. It is great to have a panel of experts so to speak but valuable input can also come from the general populus as they provide even different perspectives and many times a fresh outlook. But then again, we are talking artwork and most of penturning isn't so much creating something from nothing but more so a shaping and assembling. Like paintng and assembling a model car. I am not meaning to take anything away from one's efforts but be honest, we typically turn either B2B or add a few touches and shapes of our own but for the most part, after awhile, they all begin to look alike. Sure, we see different combonations of woods, metals, acrylics, and others but for the most part, the same. Kits are kits and available to everyone. We've seen subtle changes and a few new introductions but yet they still for the most part look similar to existing kits. Segmenting and inlays do open up a greater area of creativity but do to size there is a limit. I beleive all this is one of the main reasons why it seems all one hears is NPGJ (nice pen! great job!)

Yes, there are many areas where one's work can be critiqued but in all honesty, doesn't the 86th CA finished, gold plated, smooth ended, bias cut Zebrawood Baron begin to look like the rest? 

I don'tmean take anything away from one's work and do feel that a forum as such, where honest, unbiased, experienced critiques would be a priceless benefit for those who seek them, especially novices. In life I have found that learning by others mistakes, uh, experience is a lesson worth having as it helps me to first avoid the same mistakes and secondly, advances me far quicker.

I believe a panel with a minimum of 3 directing a forum for this purpose would be providing a service to the members that can be found on no other site open to the masses. I'd like to see something along these lines as I from time to time greatly appreciate some open and honest input. Nice pen, great job doesn't tell me squat and in fact, can be more detrimental than good. I have seen far too many pens with flaws that received nothing but praises. This can and at times does lead the turner to believe they are on the right track.


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## wdcav1952 (May 23, 2007)

I see no need to limit viewing access to any of the fora, as far as viewing.  If the moderator chooses, perhaps posting access to the critiques forum could be limited to the poster of a pen and the panel.

In case one of my suggestions was misunderstood by Freddie, I would not propose limiting viewing if someone does not have an album of their work.  I would definitely propose that all panel members must have an onsite album of their work.


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## Mudder (May 23, 2007)

> _Originally posted by wdcav1952_
> <br />BTW, Ed4Copies would not be allowed to critique wood pens, and Rifleman1776 can't critique "plastic" pens. []




I'm not sure if a "panel" would be the right thing because we might tend to pick members who have similar views and then we would be slanted in our views.

And truth be told I would want a folks like Ed and Frank to critique the pens because they both have an eye for detail. Matter of fact, when I think back I think the one person on the forum who gave consistently good and honest critiques has been Skye.

Furthermore, I believe that the forum could work if we had a general set of guidelines that WE AS A GROUP DECIDE.

There are a lot of variables involved but if we had a general guideline something like what is used in a juried show and we stuck to them and kept personal likes and dislikes out of it we could succeed.

I also believe that any comments that do not meet the guidelines that are set be deleted immediately and without question. Finally, I would strongly suggest that this type of forum not be available to non members.


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## alamocdc (May 23, 2007)

First, you are more than welcome, Cav. I'm sure you'd have done the same for me.[]

Secondly, since Anthony spoke up again and vetoed my ditto, I should elaborate a bit on why I vote no. It has been said several times here already that we are penturners, not photographers. Yes, some of us have gone to great lengths to get VERY good at taking photos of their work. Alas, in spite of my best efforts, I'm not one of them. Back when we had the Critique forum, I submitted a pen for review. The submission was susequently withdrawn after a rather lengthy essay on why my pen was not acceptable for critique b/c of the quality of the photo. Granted, it was not an award winning photo, but I've seen much worse... and recently even. 

My point, as long as we are penturners and NOT photographers, we will continue to have this sort of problem in a critique forum. More over, it has also been said that some platings give an illusion of the fit not being right. And I've seen this in some of my own pen's photos. So what kind of feedback are we looking for exactly? If you want feedback on your'e progressing on finishing, we have the problem of photo quality. I've seen photos reveal what appear to be sanding or finishing lines in some of mine that don't appear even when using a magnifying glass and the same lighting. What caused it? I haven't the foggiest. If you want feedback on the fit of your pen, you would be the best judge of that. Afterall, you are holding the pen and can "feel" whether or not there is a problem if you can't see it. So what does that leave? Design is the only thing I can think of, and that can easily be critiqued in the SOYP forum. JMNSHO[]


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## Rifleman1776 (May 23, 2007)

No.
My first thought on reading Jeff's question was: Why pull a scab off of a healing wound?
It didn't work the first time because personalities got in the way. Other viewpoints have been offered and I agree that just asking for comments elsewhere is sufficient.


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## Randy_ (May 23, 2007)

> _Originally posted by edman2_
> <br />.....Because I don't own a digital camera I have not posted photos. Someday hopefully!  I would hate to be barred from reading the critiques because I have not posted my own photos......



Freddie:  Sadly there are a few elitists residing on this board who assign a lesser value to the opinions and information offered by pencrafters who don't post pictures.  Intelligent though they appears to be, they fail to understand or at least acknowledge that there are many legitimate reasons why a person can't or choses not to post pictures of his/her work.  You will almost certainly run into one or more of these individuals sooner or later and my advice would be to just ignore their ranting.  Their bias in no way reflects on you or your thinking; but, rather, is a self-incrimination of their own provincial attitudes and thinking!!  

It is interesting to think about the concept that, in the broadest sense, everyone who buys a hand crafted pen is critiquing the crafters work.  They are saying that the crafter's work is appealing enough, technically and artistically, for them to part with hard-earned cash to possess the work for themselves. What more complementary critique could there be??  I'm betting that these "photo snobs" would not turn down a nice wad of "green" as a positive critique of their work if it was offered by someone who had never even made a pen and hence was not capable of offering a valuable and useful critique.  Want to bet??[]


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## edman2 (May 23, 2007)

William, Thanks. I think I misread your comments. I agree. I would like to read and learn. I don't have enough experience or credibility to critique. Which means that moderators would need to be able to choose the panels or an approved list of persons (who have posted their own work) could be established and any of those could critique. I would want these persons to have enough experience and skill to be credible. 

If this idea of a forum takes away from learning about penturning, it's not worth it.

That's my story and I'm stickin' to it (after I correct my mistakes.)[]
Randy, I am pretty hard to offend even by those who don't agree with me!  I like and appreciate good photo work and not offended by those who think that it is very important. I have found that there are "snarl" words and "purr" words in language. I have chosen not to be offended by "snarl" words and always try to use "purr" words. The problem is that what is a "snarl" word to one is a "purr" word to another. For example, from my own field of endevor, "spiritual" is a purr word to an older believer and it is a snarl word to a rebellious teenager who thinks of "miss goody two shoes" when he hears the word. Language is a funny thing.[]...and therin lies our problem[] Thanks for you comments.


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## GaryMGg (May 23, 2007)

Randy's comment is most telling. He posts few pictures and I suspect, makes far more pens than he shows. I have a fair number of pens in my album and posted most in SOYP's, yet I expect his work is far superior to mine.
When I posted my most personally challenging work on TPWU and asked for critical feedback, Randy's was the most direct and critical! It was the type of feedback I wanted. I knew what was right with the pen, I wanted to hear all the things others could see in the photo that would help me continue to grow my skills. The fact that the pen sold and the customer was happy doesn't lessen my desire to do better next time and obtaining impartial critical input is a necessary requirement toward that end [for me] (hell, even if it's mean criticism, I'll take it if it's valid [}] ).

I'm hopeful there will be a newly established Critique forum for those of us who wish to avail ourselves of its benefits. I will suffer the slings and arrows of y'alls devices if it makes me a more talented, competent, and successful pen craftsman and artist.

Gary


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## Blind_Squirrel (May 23, 2007)

The rules that were set in the old area seem appropriate to me.  I would suggest that to keep things civil, the forum is "ruled with an iron fist" (i.e. closely monitored to ensure the rules are _strictly_ adhered to).

If I understand correctly, the intent of the forum is to receive constructive criticism to enable the maker to do better the next time around.  Because of this I would add that any NJGP posts be summarily deleted.  If someone is looking for a pat on the back they should post the pen in the SYOP forum.  

If you want to be extra cautionary you could have a sticky forum where people would first have to post â€œI have read and acknowledge the rules of the critique forumâ€ before being allowed to post in the critique forum.


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## ed4copies (May 23, 2007)

Make all the rules you want, people  can and WILL get offended.

UNLESS you make a RULE that says, POSTERS CANNOT get OFFENDED!!!

That'll work![][][][]


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## GaryMGg (May 23, 2007)

> _Originally posted by ed4copies_
> <br />Make all the rules you want, people  can and WILL get offended.
> 
> UNLESS you make a RULE that says, POSTERS CANNOT get OFFENDED!!!
> ...



Preposterous! How offensive.  [}] [)]

Let's just Do it. [8D]

Gary


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## wdcav1952 (May 23, 2007)

Not that we are actually voting, but if we were, I would change my vote to no on this issue.  I thought that we were allowed to express opinions as to how we thought the forum should be organized.  Although Freddie understood my position on the panel, it appears that in some corners of the forum, expressing my opinion makes me the following:

Sadly there are a few elitists residing on this board who assign a lesser value to the opinions and information offered by pencrafters who don't post pictures. Intelligent though they appears to be, they fail to understand or at least acknowledge that there are many legitimate reasons why a person can't or choses not to post pictures of his/her work. You will almost certainly run into one or more of these individuals sooner or later and my advice would be to just ignore their ranting. Their bias in no way reflects on you or your thinking; but, rather, is a self-incrimination of their own provincial attitudes and thinking!! 

So, since I am a (dang I hope I get this right) self-incriminating provincial thinking intelligent appearing biased ranting elitist, I don't think I should be eligible to comment on the subject of a critique forum.  Heck, I probably should wear a Haz-Mat suit to protect those around me.

Given the above, and the great cartridge pen war on another thread, I have to say leave the critiques forum to rest in peace.


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## gerryr (May 23, 2007)

William,
I am sorry to inform you that you are not alone in being one of those, whatever you called it.  The good news is that I'm in good company.  The bad news is that you may not be.[]


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## GaryMGg (May 23, 2007)

Uhhh, could y'all stop talking in code and get back on topic?!?!?
Or am I gonna have to critique your posts? [}][]


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## ahoiberg (May 23, 2007)

it was interesting for me to finally read some of the "banter" between some of the members. being a fairly new member, i'd been reading all these posts about why things have progressed the way they have and didn't quite understand until now. thanks jeff for posting some examples.

i don't really feel the critiques forum is necessary. like countless others have already said, if you want honest critical feedback, ask for it and follow above guidelines for dealing with it. you can try and come up with rules/regulations all day long for a new critiques forum, but let's be honest, the same things are going to happen again and again. maybe not at first, but after a while, ugly heads will rear again. all of this is human nature... and none of us should be the least bit surprised that these things happen.

reading that old post with eagle and tim reminded me of patrick roy and dominic hasek when they were both on ESPN being interviewed together and they just bashed back and forth, back and forth. from what i've seen, two of the best pen turners around just getting into the heat of competition. nothing wrong with it, but this probably isn't the place for it. it wouldn't bother me, but it does seem a tad counter-productive. maybe when two members get into it like this, we just set up a steel cage with two lathes and see who comes out with the best pen... []


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## GaryMGg (May 23, 2007)

> when two members get into it like this, we just set up a steel cage with two lathes and see who comes out with the best pen... []



And a Sig line is born. []


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## GaryMGg (May 23, 2007)

Not to beat a dead horse, but I was spending some more time in the old critiques forum.
Found this: http://www.penturners.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=9265 amongst some other gems in there. <b>There's a gold-mine of talent locked up in here</b>.
If this is not to be resurrected, the photos ought to be pulled up and put into a unified body of work for the benefit of all who wish to enhance their skills.

I'm going back for more. See ya,  [][][]
Gary


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## ahoiberg (May 23, 2007)

gary, thanks for that link, there are some great pens coming from those guys.

if i may change directions for a minute, does anyone know how you do one of those custom end piece like on this pen:

http://www.penturners.org/oldalbums/vick/SlimLineMod1.jpg

do you cut a tenon to fit where the normal end piece fits or cut a hole to go over the original end piece or what? that is a very nice look...


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## alamocdc (May 23, 2007)

> _Originally posted by wdcav1952_
> <br />So, since I am a (dang I hope I get this right) self-incriminating provincial thinking intelligent appearing biased ranting elitist, I don't think I should be eligible to comment on the subject of a critique forum.  Heck, I probably should wear a Haz-Mat suit to protect those around me.



Cav, there's an acronymn for that... RATBASTAGE (that is a short G {as are both G's in George} for those who may be confused). [}][]

So does that make you, me and Gerry the RAT pack?[]


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## wdcav1952 (May 23, 2007)

Damn, just checked another thread, and I have to work into my description that I can't spell Nelsen!  Let's see, I think I am a poor spelling self-incriminating provincial thinking intelligent appearing teal makes me puke biased ranting elitist.  Cripes, I forgot to work camera owning in there somewhere!!!!!  Billy, another acronym, quickly!!  Rats, Grandpa Billy is probably in bed, fellow elitist Gerry, can you help? []


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## JimGo (May 23, 2007)

> _Originally posted by wdcav1952_
> <br />...intelligent appearing...



Cav, as long as you're amending your description, you can leave that part out.


(just kidding!!!!!)


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## JimGo (May 23, 2007)

> _Originally posted by ahoiberg_
> <br />...do you cut a tenon to fit where the normal end piece fits or cut a hole to go over the original end piece or what? that is a very nice look...



I BELIEVE that was done by simply creating a wooden replacement for the standard slimline finial, but a quick E-mail to Mike will probably get the correct answer.


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## gerryr (May 24, 2007)

> _Originally posted by wdcav1952_
> <br />Damn, just checked another thread, and I have to work into my description that I can't spell Nelsen!  Let's see, I think I am a poor spelling self-incriminating provincial thinking intelligent appearing teal makes me puke biased ranting elitist.  Cripes, I forgot to work camera owning in there somewhere!!!!!  Billy, another acronym, quickly!!  Rats, Grandpa Billy is probably in bed, fellow elitist Gerry, can you help? []



Sorry, but I was off making a pen.  How about paparazzi?  That sounds pretty elitist to me.[]


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## gerryr (May 24, 2007)

> _Originally posted by alamocdc_
> <br />
> 
> So does that make you, me and Gerry the RAT pack?[]



I don't know about RAT pack, since I started making pens, my wife says I'm a packrat for wood.[]


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## GaryMGg (May 24, 2007)

> _Originally posted by ahoiberg_
> <br />gary, thanks for that link, there are some great pens coming from those guys.
> 
> if i may change directions for a minute, does anyone know how you do one of those custom end piece like on this pen:
> ...



Holy cow, 1:00 AM -- how the heck did it get to be so late?!?  Oh yeah, I've been perusing that old forum. What a body of knowledge. And, here's the answer to your question:

http://www.penturners.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8573

Gary


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## wdcav1952 (May 24, 2007)

> _Originally posted by JimGo_
> <br />
> 
> 
> ...



ROTFL!!!!!!!


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## Tanner (May 24, 2007)

I would be for this if everyone could critique in a positive way.  Sort of like Paula on American Idol.  I don't post every pen I make and don't put every pen I make in my album.  In critiquing my own work, I am brutally honest with myself.  Sometimes to the point of busting up the wood or acrylic tubes.[V]  If the finish has a cloud in it, you best not be standing nearby, as there will be pieces flying.[V]  So, if a pen makes it past me onto the SOYP forum, it has probably came dangerously close to being destroyed.  

I probably could not critique others work in a negative way as I would be brutally honest as to how I see it.  Not that I make great pens, it's just I've been through many years of art and architecture classes and see things one way and others may see it another way.  It's all in the eyes of the beholder.  I've looked at some pens on the SOYP forum and thought, Wow, I wish I could do that.  Other times, and not often, I've thought, Wow...you should have saved that for the ugliest pen contest.

Maybe each pen posted on that type of forum should have a grading poll type system where we just grade the pen, and then if we have something to offer, we can reply. Every pen could be graded 1 - 10.  If you gave a bad grade, you have the option of replying as to what you did not like about the pen.


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## alamocdc (May 24, 2007)

> _Originally posted by wdcav1952_
> <br />Damn, just checked another thread, and I have to work into my description that I can't spell Nelsen!  Let's see, I think I am a poor spelling self-incriminating provincial thinking intelligent appearing teal makes me puke biased ranting elitist.  Cripes, I forgot to work camera owning in there somewhere!!!!!  Billy, another acronym, quickly!!  Rats, Grandpa Billy is probably in bed, fellow elitist Gerry, can you help? []



Just saw this... and yes I had already gone to bed... but, "Grandpa" Billy? Sheesh, Cav! Okay, so I am a grandfather of 10, but I was at age 50 so I guess that makes me the youngest grandfather of 10. At least concerning anyone I know. And I ain't even 52 yet! [] Anyway, no new acronymn is necessary, Cav. I think RATBASTAGE fits us. But to make Gerry happy (how else can we be a PACK?) how 'bout RATPACKSTAGE? Or maybe PACKRATSTAGE? [] No, I'll stick to the first... it's more elitest.[}]


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## alamocdc (May 24, 2007)

> _Originally posted by Tanner_
> <br />I would be for this if everyone could critique in a positive way.  Sort of like Paula on American Idol.



I think I would have to respectfully disagree here. In order for feedback to truly be constructive, it needs to be balanced. Not jsut all cookies and cream. I taught an instructor course for about 5 years and if I'd given all of my students only positive feedback, they would not have learned the lessons necessary to become effective instructors. Yes, we would need to draw attention to what the turner did right, but equal attention should be placed on what he or she did less adequately. Otherwise it is just as useless as the feedback Paula gives. She dances around the issues and refuses to take a stance if there is a negative. Don't get me wrong, I don't dislike her at all. I just don't think she gives truly constructive feedback. In contrast, Simon is almost completely negative so she balances him out. But for "everyone" to only provide positive feedback, as you suggest, would be no more effective than NPGJ. JMNSHO


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## Tanner (May 24, 2007)

She says negative things sometimes, along with what she likes with a performance.  Paula's pen critique would be something like this.  I have to agree with Randy, I don't like the shape of your pen, however the choice of kit and your fit is awesome.

A grading poll on every pen would work well in my opinion.


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## timdaleiden (May 24, 2007)

> _Originally posted by jeff_
> <br />And here's a good example of why the Critiques forum was closed.
> http://www.penturners.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8331
> 
> Please note, I'm not picking on Eagle here. It takes two to tango, and both parties in that altercation were guilty of personal attacks.



Boy I go away for a few months, and now I am being used as example of how not to behave. []


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## timdaleiden (May 24, 2007)

Oh, and for what it's worth...I still think the critique forum isn't needed. Just post it up somewhere on the site, and ask for some brutally honest feedback. Pretty simple if you ask me.


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