# Ford ---------rant



## Gary Max (Oct 4, 2009)

We own a 1997 Ford Areostar----she has just over a 100k miles on her and is running strong. I bought the van about 4 years ago.
Last week it sprung a water leak ---lower Radiator hose.
Got on the phone and called around the local parts stores----Sorry we don't carry that hose----has a hard plastic molded body that splits into a "Y".
Ok ----here goes the big bucks-----I call the Ford dealer.
Remember the van is only 13 years old.
Fords response------sorry we no longer carry parts for the van.
Back on the phone and 4 more parts houses and I found one---$45.00.
I called Ford back the next day and asked about the heat sending unit----Sorry we no longer carry parts for that van.
What would of happened if we where on the road---you would just have to park it and walk away??????
How in the heck are they going to stay in bussiness if you can't buy parts. Bet they never run any TV ads telling  buyers they are getting out of the parts bussiness.
I am working on finding another van right now----No more Fords in our driveway.


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## me2cyclops (Oct 4, 2009)

stay away from dodge vans as well.
they stock PLENTY of parts 'cause you're gonna need em
mine is apart for a trany rebuild.....again


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## OKLAHOMAN (Oct 4, 2009)

It never ceases to amaze that American auto manufactures wonder why they are in deep sh** when we hear things like this.


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## hunter-27 (Oct 4, 2009)

Gary, I can relate. I ran over something in my 91 dodge cummins deisel, it came up and hit the kickdown cable and kinked it. Crap. Well I thought, "heck it's just a little cable." All the parts stores, same story as you. All the salvage yards, same. Seems this little peach of a cable is not only old, but unique to a 91-93 Dodge 3/4 to with the 3 speed auto tranny AND the Cummings engine. At this point I get on the net. Wow there is 1 in a Chysler warehouse in Detroit. Now I'm in business. I have to have a dealership order it as they won't sell direct. I say, "order it I need it". Parts guy at dealership says it is a "bit" pricey. Again, I have no choice as I need the damn thing. It takes about a week to get here. HOLY CRAP!!!!! 112.99 plus shipping. Now remember this is a 3 foot cable that kinda looks like a a bicycle brake cable. Well crap. I replaced it works fine but Son of a &%*(. Well Gary we both need to shop for a "parts" vehicle if we are going to keep those vehicles.


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## randyrls (Oct 4, 2009)

I can relate.  My wife's Saturn is a 1997.  It runs well.  I was thinking of getting a new Saturn, but now, probably not.


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## tim self (Oct 4, 2009)

Gary I feel your pain.  From a mechanics point of view, not only are the parts as rare as hens teeth, that ban is a total pain to work on.  Since you've experienced this, imagine trying to explain to a customer that you can not find a part for their only vehicle.


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## Billman (Oct 4, 2009)

Have you tried eBay for the parts?


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## workinforwood (Oct 4, 2009)

If you parked it on the side of the road and walked away..2 weeks later I guarantee Ken Bitshird would be hauling that baby behind his VW bug back to his house.  "Look Honey, another flower bed!":wink::biggrin:


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## Frank Nemke sr (Oct 4, 2009)

Auto dealerships figure they are no in the parts busness.  They want to sell you a new one.   Thats why we pay $112 for a $5 cable.  Back in the 70's &80's , GM built cars too self-destruct after 50,000 miles, and most did. That helped the inports get a foot in the door


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## Gary Max (Oct 4, 2009)

me2cyclops said:


> stay away from dodge vans as well.
> they stock PLENTY of parts 'cause you're gonna need em
> mine is apart for a trany rebuild.....again


 

You would have to bring up Dodge's-----my 1999 has a new tranny in it. Not a rebuilt one---New. Just in case you are asking yourself----$2,600.00. I told the dealer he was nuts and walked away--- I got about 10 feet when he said that it comes with a 100K mile warranty----I told hime to order one. I spent most of the last 6 months working for Dodge to pay it off.
Oh on the way home from the show last weekend----the one where we almost drowned at-----the exhaust system fell off the truck.
I have been working all this week trying to get this junk running so I can get to my next three shows.


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## bitshird (Oct 4, 2009)

Gary Max said:


> We own a 1997 Ford Areostar----she has just over a 100k miles on her and is running strong. I bought the van about 4 years ago.
> Last week it sprung a water leak ---lower Radiator hose.
> Got on the phone and called around the local parts stores----Sorry we don't carry that hose----has a hard plastic molded body that splits into a "Y".
> Ok ----here goes the big bucks-----I call the Ford dealer.
> ...


Gary, I feel your pain, I have a 99 Windstar, it's got 225.000 and still runs pretty good, Now I need a couple of O2 sensors, the suckers cost 85.00 each with the connector, If I get universal ones and cut the connectors off, solder them on and use heat shrink they only cost 20 bucks a piece, guess what, But a few months ago I blew the idler on the serpentine belt, Autozone had the pulley, but not the bolt, about 30 bucks, so I went to ford to see if they had the shouldered bolt, they only had it available with the pulley whiv=ch was steel VS the plastic pulley from Autozone 23.00 so I got the last one they had, comes to be that manufacturers only stock parts up to 10 years after that you better pray that Autozone or Car Quest or Napa carries or can get the part for you.
With the cash for clunkers it's going to get worse, and now GM is pulling out of Saturn deal with Pensky and my wife just bought a 2007 Saturn View. I'd stay with Ford if I were you, at least they didn't have to file bankruptcy or close up shop completely.


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## bitshird (Oct 4, 2009)

workinforwood said:


> If you parked it on the side of the road and walked away..2 weeks later I guarantee Ken Bitshird would be hauling that baby behind his VW bug back to his house.  "Look Honey, another flower bed!":wink::biggrin:



Jeff; I already have one for a flowerbed <LOL> A windstar, I don't understand it but my bug starts runs and manages to haul parts for my Ford, and my wife's old Toyota, and I can't even tell what part of the thing under the hood of the Saturn is actually the engine, Mayby Gary should look for a VW van?? I got my eye on one, just need to convince the old man he needs to sell it and get it off his place.


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## workinforwood (Oct 4, 2009)

I just bought some parts on ebay for the daughters 99 saturn.  She turns on the wipers and they won't turn off unless she turns off the car.  I'm not a mechanic, but I can fix some things.  I googled the problem and the most common solution was replace wiper motor, so I found a new used one on ebay and bought it..see what happens next week when it gets here.  Saturn was a good company that actually made money until GM bought it. Seems they sponged away all the cash, got rid of the managment that knew how to make money and now are selling off what's left.  It's a shame.


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## wolftat (Oct 4, 2009)

I like a trailer for just those reasons. If my truck is down, I can hook up to the wifes SUV and away I go.


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## Gary Max (Oct 4, 2009)

Hack the Fed owns GM now------------I figure this whole thing is just another way to step on us poor folks.


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## Russianwolf (Oct 4, 2009)

bitshird said:


> Mayby Gary should look for a VW van?? I got my eye on one, just need to convince the old man he needs to sell it and get it off his place.



You mean the ones they buy from .......... Chrysler:biggrin:?


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## DurocShark (Oct 4, 2009)

bitshird said:


> Jeff; I already have one for a flowerbed <LOL> A windstar, I don't understand it but my bug starts runs and manages to haul parts for my Ford, and my wife's old Toyota, and I can't even tell what part of the thing under the hood of the Saturn is actually the engine, Mayby Gary should look for a VW van?? I got my eye on one, just need to convince the old man he needs to sell it and get it off his place.



Yup. My bus runs and runs. (Now that I've figured out the mystery broken wire. But that's what I get for liking Fuel Injection...)  At least 270000 miles on it. And it fits full sheets of plywood in it.


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## bitshird (Oct 4, 2009)

Russianwolf said:


> You mean the ones they buy from .......... Chrysler:biggrin:?



Mike there isn't any thing Chrysler on my  VW's the one I'm trying to get is a 70 with a blown engine, but I have a couple of spare cases and cranks around, in fact every thing but extra dual port heads. Chrysler Schmysler, I won't even let my daughter park her Le Baron in my driveway, it might take root  or turn Chevy you know "like a Rock":tongue: How many 1970 Chrysler's are still on the road? or aren't Found On Road Dead.


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## jleiwig (Oct 4, 2009)

workinforwood said:


> Saturn was a good company that actually made money until GM bought it. Seems they sponged away all the cash, got rid of the managment that knew how to make money and now are selling off what's left. It's a shame.


 
Just for clarification, Saturn was a company started by and always owned by GM.  It was never independent of GM.


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## bitshird (Oct 4, 2009)

jleiwig said:


> Just for clarification, Saturn was a company started by and always owned by GM.  It was never independent of GM.



Justin, wasn't it originally a co-operative venture between Toyota and GM, I seem to remember something about that back in 81, I thought Toyota helped design the assembly plant or some thing, I know I sure like my wife's Vue.


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## jleiwig (Oct 4, 2009)

bitshird said:


> Justin, wasn't it originally a co-operative venture between Toyota and GM, I seem to remember something about that back in 81, I thought Toyota helped design the assembly plant or some thing, I know I sure like my wife's Vue.


 

Nope...totally GM

read here http://www.saturn.com/history/


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## bitshird (Oct 4, 2009)

jleiwig said:


> Nope...totally GM
> 
> read here http://www.saturn.com/history/



That's amazing, with all the awards and consumer support, why drop it, Oh I know. Why should they build a vehicle that doesn't require a lot of maintenance . DUH


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## Don Gaiser (Oct 4, 2009)

How many years do you really expect any company to continue to make parts for a vehicle? It was discontinued in 1997.  That would be cost prohibitive is a huge way. As a general rule auto companies will attempt to keeps parts available for 10 years after production of any vehicle ends.


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## Russianwolf (Oct 4, 2009)

Don Gaiser said:


> As a general rule auto companies will attempt to keeps parts available for 10 years after production of any vehicle ends.



I think they are required to keep part going for 10 years from discontinuation, but I may be wrong.

We like our Saturn, but it's starting to show it's age and the electrical system is shot since a mouse shorted out half the elctronics by eating a wiring harness. My old Jeep (Kaiser) is great, but I need to do some major work to get her back in good shape.

All the newer jeeps (newer than mine) with the 4.0l engine were good vehicles too as that motor was damn near bullet proof.

I wouldn't mind getting a new VW, but I want AWD and they don't seem to offer it on anything short of the overpriced SUV they have. Now with Audi coming out with TDIs too, I may look in that direction when the time comes, but they are more pricey.

I noticed, that Toyota (Which I will never buy) is the only Minivan with AWD now. It sucks for those of us who live in places where snow happens and we still want to move around. I'm guessing that I'll have to go with a Tahoe or a Jeep. Can't stand ford.


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## JerrySambrook (Oct 4, 2009)

The biggest reason for not having parts stock around is the government.
The companies get charges tax on any items sitting around as an asset.
I am in aerospace, with the majority of my work going to the government, and it is a killer for us.
We get taxed at 30% value of the item sitting on the shelf, so it is prohibitive for us to have it, and yet in the same breathe, if they need it, we get charged for NOT getting it to them in time.

But to re-iterate, the biggest deterrent to the manufacturers having a good parts inventory is that it is taxed at a high rate as an asset.

The other point though, is your dealer you went to did not contact any other network dealers, and in Fords case, almost all of them are networked and have been since the 80's, and inquire to another dealship about that part.
We used to be able to contact other dealers about their inventory, partly because we had a good idea who had what types of parts.
I think MOST of you issue should be brought against the dealership you went to and not against FORD themselves.

The imports also have the same problems as well when they are in this country

Jerry


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## maxwell_smart007 (Oct 4, 2009)

I wonder how many of those are still on the road in your area - likely doesn't make sense for them to stock parts for a van that very few people are driving still...

And yes, 13 years is very old for a Ford!


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## Russianwolf (Oct 4, 2009)

Jerry, What you are talking about is a property tax. They are levied by the State Gov, not Fed Gov. And last I checked, they are no where near 30% in any jurisdiction. Usually it's in the 2-5% range.

If it were 30, after 3 years in inventory (and yes, some inventory can sit around that long), all profits would have gone to taxes and no one would stand for that. And since most companies shoot for a 20% profit margin, it's likely wouldn't even take that long.


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## Gary Max (Oct 4, 2009)

Hummmm---If the warranty is for 10 years----payment for 10 years---they only made parts for 10 years.
That means you would make payments the rest of your life and just think of the interest the banks would make.
All your service would be done at a dealership---all the small auto repair shops could just close----that would be more people drawing unemployment.
And the folks who can't make the payments ----heck the goverment could just bail them out. That program is already in place.


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## bitshird (Oct 4, 2009)

Gary Max said:


> Hummmm---If the warranty is for 10 years----payment for 10 years---they only made parts for 10 years.
> That means you would make payments the rest of your life and just think of the interest the banks would make.
> All your service would be done at a dealership---all the small auto repair shops could just close----that would be more people drawing unemployment.
> And the folks who can't make the payments ----heck the goverment could just bail them out. That program is already in place.



Another good reason for driving an old Volkswagen, I can still get German made parts or Brazilian parts, and it's nearly 40 years old. Oh wait, it's a German piece of engineering.


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## artme (Oct 4, 2009)

An old saying went "If you can't get a Chev then Dodge a Ford."


I would not buy any American based company's car ever again. For years the big Us auto firms plied us with crap and now they plead for help and cry foul about the competition. Stiff cheese!


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## Tuba707 (Oct 4, 2009)

workinforwood said:


> I just bought some parts on ebay for the daughters 99 saturn.  She turns on the wipers and they won't turn off unless she turns off the car.  I'm not a mechanic, but I can fix some things.  I googled the problem and the most common solution was replace wiper motor, so I found a new used one on ebay and bought it..see what happens next week when it gets here.  Saturn was a good company that actually made money until GM bought it. Seems they sponged away all the cash, got rid of the managment that knew how to make money and now are selling off what's left.  It's a shame.



I'm no mech. either, but that sounds like a sticky relay or some switching mechanism like that. It might be the motor, sounds like a weird problem to have.

I am very patriotic, but find it hard justify spending money on most American vehicles, as they are engineered for a 5-year lifespan.

For now, I keep driving my 14 and 15 year old German and Japanese cars that are both pushing 170K miles with no mechanical issues.


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## JerrySambrook (Oct 4, 2009)

Russianwolf said:


> Jerry, What you are talking about is a property tax. They are levied by the State Gov, not Fed Gov. And last I checked, they are no where near 30% in any jurisdiction. Usually it's in the 2-5% range.
> 
> If it were 30, after 3 years in inventory (and yes, some inventory can sit around that long), all profits would have gone to taxes and no one would stand for that. And since most companies shoot for a 20% profit margin, it's likely wouldn't even take that long.



Sorry, but it is an asset tax by the federal government.
I saw many good pieces of hardware and equiptment get scrapped in the early 90's due to the change in the tax structure.
Some of the items at the place I work were considered to be taxed at 30% by the officials that came in.
54H60 propeller blades come to mind.  We used to keep 2 months stock on hand "just in case"
Many that we had sitting around had to either be sold off quickly or scrapped, and I saw lots of these scrapped

Many items in aerospace are not figured on 20% margin, but profits for these are figured on overhaul and repair, seeing that they are allowed to send up many pieces of hardware with a limited number of hours flight time allowed.


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## mywoodshopca (Oct 4, 2009)

Not just fords and dodges are expensive.. I had to order a pass side seat belt for an 02 honda odyssey 2 years ago.. $352.50!!!!


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## Russianwolf (Oct 4, 2009)

back in 94 or 95 I was looking for a air filter container (the part that sits on top of the Carb) for an 89 Mazda B2600 pick-up. $400 A losey piece of pressed metal with some fittings.

The Engine was only available for 2 years before they totally revamped it for the Fuel Injected Model.


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## Russianwolf (Oct 4, 2009)

JerrySambrook said:


> Sorry, but it is an asset tax by the federal government.
> I saw many good pieces of hardware and equiptment get scrapped in the early 90's due to the change in the tax structure.
> Some of the items at the place I work were considered to be taxed at 30% by the officials that came in.
> 54H60 propeller blades come to mind.  We used to keep 2 months stock on hand "just in case"
> ...


Can you point me to a code where this is covered. Been an accountant for 15 years, and never heard of this.


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## Gary Max (Oct 4, 2009)

JerrySambrook said:


> The biggest reason for not having parts stock around is the government.
> The companies get charges tax on any items sitting around as an asset.
> I am in aerospace, with the majority of my work going to the government, and it is a killer for us.
> We get taxed at 30% value of the item sitting on the shelf, so it is prohibitive for us to have it, and yet in the same breathe, if they need it, we get charged for NOT getting it to them in time.
> ...


 
I really like this post-----just another way the gov is looking out for Americans


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## Gary Max (Oct 4, 2009)

So-----if you think about it----buying a used auto-----it really should be less than 5 years old or your wasteing your time and money.


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## DurocShark (Oct 4, 2009)

Gary Max said:


> So-----if you think about it----buying a used auto-----it really should be less than 5 years old or your wasteing your time and money.



Or more than 20 years old. And a collector's car of some kind. Mine's 31. The wife's Exploder is 10. I'll be looking to trade it off soon.


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## wudnhed (Oct 5, 2009)

I feel that the kind of cars or car companies you like depends on your experiences......duh, thats kinda of a dumb statement huh, but true?!?!  I am a Ford person all the way, have been since they came out the Pinto, man that really dates me :frown:. My first car was my Dad's VW bug, that sucker was in the shop every month for a year with something wrong (partly mechanic's fault).  The last straw was finding some of the mechanic's tools left in the engine compartment the next time it broke down .   In my life time, I have owned 3 Pintos (2 used), Ranger (used), Bronco11 (used), Bronco (used), Expedition, F150 and F150.  Had new Subaru, Toyota, GMC and Chevy between some.  Never had any major trouble with the Fords but always took them for their oil change and matainence every 3000 to 5000 miles.  

The main reason we bought our newest F150 is because Ford wasn't asking for government help.  A couple weeks ago we saw a segment on one of the news programs about Ford. About 3 years ago  Henry's grandson stepped down as CEO because the company was doing so badly.   He brought in someone that I think had been in aerospace, since then the company has started turning things around.  I admire the fact that he recognized he needed help and got it instead of running the company into the ground, which is what I feel happened to the other big two.  Not being an expert, this is JMHO!


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## titan2 (Oct 5, 2009)

hunter-27 said:


> Gary, I can relate. I ran over something in my 91 dodge cummins deisel, it came up and hit the kickdown cable and kinked it. Crap. Well I thought, "heck it's just a little cable." All the parts stores, same story as you. All the salvage yards, same. Seems this little peach of a cable is not only old, but unique to a 91-93 Dodge 3/4 to with the 3 speed auto tranny AND the Cummings engine. At this point I get on the net. Wow there is 1 in a Chysler warehouse in Detroit. Now I'm in business. I have to have a dealership order it as they won't sell direct. I say, "order it I need it". Parts guy at dealership says it is a "bit" pricey. Again, I have no choice as I need the damn thing. It takes about a week to get here. HOLY CRAP!!!!! 112.99 plus shipping. Now remember this is a 3 foot cable that kinda looks like a a bicycle brake cable. Well crap. I replaced it works fine but Son of a &%*(. Well Gary we both need to shop for a "parts" vehicle if we are going to keep those vehicles.


 
My son has that same deal....he's in the USAF in Arizona, got himself a vehicle to do some 4-wheeling (good deal - he thought).  Motor was rebuilt, tranny was rebuilt, but the motor was missing the cable to the fuel pumb.  The kid he bought the vehicle from had blown the tranny because of the cable.  My son found a guy that rebuilds these and he got a sweet deal on the tranny, got everything together when he found was happened to the first tranny.  Well, now he has a gargage queen until he can get the part.

He scouts out all of the junk yards in Phoenix area (no luck), checks on line (no luck), checks dealer (no luck), checks with off-road groups (no luck).........now what?

Well, he brings the family out here to visit......been in Okinawa for the last 4 years.  We hit the junk yards out here and we finally fine a vehicle at 'Pick-n-Pull' that matches the years he's looking for.  We finally find the one that had all the parts on it and there was the piece....had to remove the intake and a bunch of other stuff, but he had his PRIZE!!!  One day of hunting......probably the last one in the US ... LOL!!!

He's a happy camper now!


Barney


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## titan2 (Oct 5, 2009)

Frank Nemke sr. said:


> Auto dealerships figure they are no in the parts busness. They want to sell you a new one. Thats why we pay $112 for a $5 cable. Back in the 70's &80's , GM built cars too self-destruct after 50,000 miles, and most did. That helped the inports get a foot in the door


 

I hear ya......my wife's 1995 Dodge Spirit needed a cross-over tube, a $38 part.......installation = $750!  Same deal with the water pump, about $135 and installation = $750......

Went out and bought her a fully loaded 1999 Tahoe........great vehicle!!!  Sold the Dodge for $800 and don't miss it!!!


Barney


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## nava1uni (Oct 5, 2009)

As a former auto mechanic I think that all cars have problems, but like Wudnhead said I think personal experience is what makes people like cars.  I learned on American cars and they were good cars until the late 70's and then they all started to go bad.  I specialized in Japanese, German and Swedish cars and they just keep on running because is those countries people don't buy new cars every few years so that have to last a lifetime.  My Volvo wagon has over 600,000 miles on it and is still running and used daily by a fried who bought it from me when I sold it to buy a Toyota Tacoma that now have 270,000 miles on it.  On all of them I change the oil every 3,000 miles and they just keep on running.  It is sad that the American auto industry lost sight of what makes a good car and instead focused on making hugh profits at their customers expense.


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## CaRed (Oct 5, 2009)

Frank Nemke sr. said:


> Auto dealerships figure they are no in the parts busness. They want to sell you a new one. Thats why we pay $112 for a $5 cable. Back in the 70's &80's , GM built cars too self-destruct after 50,000 miles, and most did. That helped the inports get a foot in the door


 
On the contrary, they are in the parts business.  That is why they can charge $112 for a $5 cable.  They have a captive market where it doesn't pay for the aftermarket to make the cable.  I was in the parts business.  The dealerships may not have sales as high as a new vehicle but the margins they make on parts and labor are outrageous.  Hate the dealerships but many times they are the only ones to have the parts if they even stock them.  

You get bad service when they don't have the parts and you the privilege of paying a premium for that service.


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## HSTurning (Oct 5, 2009)

I was brought up as a chevy kid.  Still want a vet but other then that I wouldn't buy a chevy.  Can't stand Ford cars but if it was a truck I may buy a Ford. Had a Dodge Neon 250k miles had major work done but I still like the cars.  I think they got a bad name because they were a cheap car the young people could afford and they beat on them.(me included)  Dodge would be the first I would consider buying but only if I had to buy American.

American companies lost site of the fact people cant afford to buy a car every 3-5 years.  Right now if you bought a new car for 30k every 5 years thats 180k on cars over 30 years.  The average price of a home is 200k-250k.  Thats just nuts.
I have a Honda now and I expect 200k mile at the minimum from it and I am hoping for 350k-400k.  With any American car if I bought it I wouldn't plan on any more then 100k-120k.  I drive about 25k a year.

Buy a car.  Drive it into the ground.  Buy another car.  At some point it is no longer worth trying to save a car.  Cars are just to get from point A to point B.  You will never get out of your car what you put into it.  Enjoy it while you have it and then move on.

The 10 year suply of parts may also have to do with patent protection is only good for ten years.  Then anyone can make them.  Just hope you have a need of a part that was common so a third party can make then and make money on them.


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## jkeithrussell (Oct 5, 2009)

Buy a Jeep and I promise you'll feel better about your Ford.  I have a 2001 Jeep Grand Cherokee that has cost me more in repairs than all the other cars I've owned put together. And I've owned a lot of cars and trucks.


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## bobaltig (Oct 5, 2009)

Well heck!  If they didn't practice planned obsolescence, how could the american auto makers afford those private jets they used to fly to Washington and beg congress for bail out money?
FORD = Found On Road Dead.

Bob


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## Monty (Oct 5, 2009)

bobaltig said:


> Well heck!  If they didn't practice planned obsolescence, how could the american auto makers afford those private jets they used to fly to Washington and beg congress for bail out money?
> FORD = Found On Road Dead.
> 
> Bob


Fix Or Repair Daily


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## Gary Max (Oct 5, 2009)

Hey ---if you can't buy a dang radiator hose-----they are flower beds on wheels.
My 1999 Dodge has 126K miles on it and still works for a living----when it's not in the shop. I have 3 shows in a row coming up starting this weekend---if I can just make it through them-----keeping my fingers crossed.


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## Russianwolf (Oct 5, 2009)

HSTurning said:


> American companies lost site of the fact people cant afford to buy a car every 3-5 years.  Right now if you bought a new car for 30k every 5 years thats 180k on cars over 30 years.  The average price of a home is 200k-250k.  Thats just nuts.



The flaw in you math is trade value after 5 years. That's going to take $60k+ off your figure.


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## Gary Max (Oct 5, 2009)

Think about some of the fall out------shops that close-----no more muffler shops---or brake shops---won't need parts stores anymore-----you will be forced to get your oil changed at the dealership or void your warranty.


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## HSTurning (Oct 7, 2009)

Russianwolf said:


> The flaw in you math is trade value after 5 years. That's going to take $60k+ off your figure.


 
True. But it all depends on how well you took care of it and how many miles you have.


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