# Micro-mesh on wood?



## MikeDe (Oct 13, 2009)

Presently, after sanding my wood blanks to 600, I've been following that with EEE and then following that with Shellawax. I'm about to order one of those Micro-Mesh kits. The one that has 9 double sided pads and color coded. I was going to get it so that I can do some corian and other acrylics. 
Can or should I also use the MM on my wood blanks? If so, should I use it instead of the EEE, or before it or after it?


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## tim self (Oct 13, 2009)

Yes, use it on the wood.  You will notice a big difference in the sheen of the wood without a finish.  The EEE and shellwax will give you a decent shine but is not a durable/lasting finish.


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## ldb2000 (Oct 13, 2009)

1+ to what Tim said , the MM will make for a nice finish .... for as long as it lasts , which won't be long .


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## GregHaugen (Oct 13, 2009)

MikeDe,

I learned a few techniques that work very well for me from conversations with Barry Gross and Anthony Turchetta.  I personally don't use MM on wood.  I like Abralon pads for wood and stabilized wood.  They are available from stores but as well as www.thegoldennib.com and www.bgartforms.com.  It's an abrasive that is on a fabric/cushioned backing.  The top grit of 4000 produces a very nice sheen.  For acrylics, etc. I like the 6 pad MM that is made for acrylics and solid surfaces, also available from Anthony and Barry.  The grit on this pads are made for this application, not just something that "works" on the application.  Both of these products last a long, long time.

Here's a direct link to Anthony's page that has both options listed.

http://www.thegoldennib.com/index.p...ath=47&zenid=af2bccd571dd1b7fa3d9a7aeb7060501


These two products are what I'd recommend.

Just my two cents .........and you probably deserve change back.


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## GouletPens (Oct 13, 2009)

It really depends on what kind of finish you're going to put on the wood. If you're doing a natural finish like shellawax (which won't last but a few days basically) then you'll want to buff to as high a gloss as possible before applying the finish. The high grit of sanding is less critical IMHO if doing a poly, CA, or lacquer finish because the finishes will fill in the finer scratches left on the wood. This is debatable and I know I could start a war here on the proper sanding grit to stop before applying your finish, but I say try it every way and make up your own mind about what looks best. To answer your question though, yes MM pads work well on wood but if you CA then you'll never need to MM on the wood.


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## PTownSubbie (Oct 13, 2009)

GouletPens said:


> It really depends on what kind of finish you're going to put on the wood. If you're doing a natural finish like shellawax (which won't last but a few days basically) then you'll want to buff to as high a gloss as possible before applying the finish. The high grit of sanding is less critical IMHO if doing a poly, CA, or lacquer finish because the finishes will fill in the finer scratches left on the wood. This is debatable and I know I could start a war here on the proper sanding grit to stop before applying your finish, but I say try it every way and make up your own mind about what looks best. To answer your question though, yes MM pads work well on wood but if you CA then you'll never need to MM on the wood.


 
+1 what Brian said. 

I read some articles that did some testing when using CA finish and if you use CA you don't see any benefit of sanding past 600 grit.


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## tim self (Oct 13, 2009)

PTownSubbie said:


> +1 what Brian said.
> 
> I read some articles that did some testing when using CA finish and if you use CA you don't see any benefit of sanding past 600 grit.



Now I'm not replying so I can feed a war.  Although these comments may be true, I'm not willing to take the chance of not sanding on a $20 blank and see scratch lines in my blank.  I'll keep using my MM on wood.


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## jimbob91577 (Oct 13, 2009)

*No Benefit Sanding Past 600*



PTownSubbie said:


> +1 what Brian said.
> 
> I read some articles that did some testing when using CA finish and if you use CA you don't see any benefit of sanding past 600 grit.


 

Wow, that's interesting, because I can still see sanding scratches on my work at 600 - its not until I get three or four pads into the MM that those scratches go away.

Can you point me to your articles so that I can read through them?  Thanks!


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## jleiwig (Oct 13, 2009)

jimbob91577 said:


> Wow, that's interesting, because I can still see sanding scratches on my work at 600 - its not until I get three or four pads into the MM that those scratches go away.
> 
> Can you point me to your articles so that I can read through them? Thanks!


 
After you've applied your CA finish you can still see scratches in the WOOD at 600 grit? Not in the CA finish, but actually in the wood?


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## jimbob91577 (Oct 13, 2009)

jleiwig said:


> After you've applied your CA finish you can still see scratches in the WOOD at 600 grit? Not in the CA finish, but actually in the wood?


 
Not the wood, the finish...did I miss something?

The quote said "I read some articles that did some testing when using CA finish and if you use CA you don't see any benefit of sanding past 600 grit."

I took that to mean there is no additional benefit of going beyond 600g when finishing your work with CA glue.


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## bradh (Oct 13, 2009)

I firmly believe in what Russ Fairfield has been telling us. The grain pops (stands out) more when you use BLO  or  when you use MM on the wood. 
  I used to use BLO on the wood, now I sand with MM up to 12000 to get the grain to pop.
   When you are done, just wipe the MM on some denim to clean off the sanding dust.


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## PTownSubbie (Oct 13, 2009)

jimbob91577 said:


> Wow, that's interesting, because I can still see sanding scratches on my work at 600 - its not until I get three or four pads into the MM that those scratches go away.
> 
> Can you point me to your articles so that I can read through them? Thanks!


 
I just spent the last hour looking through to try to find them. I haven't come across them yet. If I do, I will post them for all to read.

Are you sanding with or against the grain? I can't see any scratches when I get done with my 600 grit. 

I sand against with the lathe running at ~1000rpm and then stop it and sand with the grain. I do that for every grit and use DNA in between each to clean the blank.


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## PTownSubbie (Oct 13, 2009)

bradh said:


> I firmly believe in what Russ Fairfield has been telling us. The grain pops (stands out) more when you use BLO or when you use MM on the wood.
> I used to use BLO on the wood, now I sand with MM up to 12000 to get the grain to pop.
> When you are done, just wipe the MM on some denim to clean off the sanding dust.


 
Sanding sealer can also be used after the 600 grit. It makes the grain pop also. 

I have gone away from BLO and have been using only CA. That is why I use the sanding sealer.

This is what I have finally working for me. To each his own way....

I think the key is finding what works for the way you do it.....


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## jleiwig (Oct 13, 2009)

jimbob91577 said:


> Not the wood, the finish...did I miss something?
> 
> The quote said "I read some articles that did some testing when using CA finish and if you use CA you don't see any benefit of sanding past 600 grit."
> 
> I took that to mean there is no additional benefit of going beyond 600g when finishing your work with CA glue.


 
I understood it to mean there is no benefit to sanding the wood (which is what the original topic was about) beyond 600 before applying your finish.  Of course your going to see 600 grit scratches in your CA finish!


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## GouletPens (Oct 14, 2009)

jleiwig said:


> I understood it to mean there is no benefit to sanding the wood (which is what the original topic was about) beyond 600 before applying your finish. Of course your going to see 600 grit scratches in your CA finish!


 Yeah, this is right. If you sand past 600 on the wood, then your CA finish won't have any noticeable difference, but you still do a high polish on the CA. Often (and I've been guilty of this myself) we read about others' finish processes and convince ourselves to do certain things and never waiver from them or ask why they're done that way. I used to sand the wood to 12,000MM before doing CA, then I said, "This is taking forever, let me try only going to 8000 before doing CA and let me see if I can tell the difference." I did this with a corporate order I was doing so it was the same wood, same pen style. Every pen I used one lower grit on the wood until I finally found that using MM at all before CA provided no noticeable difference in the end result. 

Most of the time when we're doing one pen at a time, we don't really think about what we're doing because the amount of time involved is not that significant, and if we get a good result then we're happy. But for anyone who's done a corporate order of at least 50 pens at a time you know that something as simple as sanding your tubes before gluing them in can take hours, so you look for the most efficient and effective way to do everything. Me personally, I don't want to sand the wood even one grit past where I need to for the same result someone else might get by MMing to 12,000. For me, time is money. But for others, sanding to 12,000 before CA is what they WANT to do because they feel it is better in the end. Well that's just fine but realize you're sanding for fun and for your own pleasure at that point, not to the benefit of the finish. But if you feel more confident in selling or using or giving away your pen knowing you've sanded it that high, then have at it. But you should at least do a little experimentation and try different methods before being abosultely convinced MMing is the only way. Okay, end of rant:biggrin:


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## wdcav1952 (Oct 14, 2009)

Every grit of abrasive, no matter what it is, leaves a scratch pattern.  Better grades of sandpaper have a more uniform size to the abrasive used, and leave a better scratch pattern than abrasives  with a mix of sizes of the abrasive particles.

The trick is to use progressively finer grits so that the newer grit removes the scratch pattern of the previous grit and replaces it with the finer scratch pattern.

Micro mesh is a very high grade of abrasive with very uniform abrasive particles.  Thus, it leaves a more even scratch pattern, which is more pleasing to the eye.  Remember that the finish you apply will magnify scratch patterns.  Notice how the acrylic of the snake skin blanks magnifies the scale pattern.  Using your finish to cover an incompletely finished blank is not the way to go, in my opinion.

No, not many, if any, customers will use magnification to examine the finish of a pen.  However, a true craftsman will want to know that their finishes are spot on, not just good enough.

Finally, discard the EEE and Shellawax; your work deserves a better and more durable finish.


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## Kaspar (Oct 15, 2009)

My experience: Every wood has a different density and structure.  Desert Ironwood and Olive wood, for example, will take a very high polishing.  Therefore, MM is useful on wood as long as you see the shine line becoming clearer / sharper.  After that, you're probably wasting your time (usu. past 4000.)  If doing a CA finish, just do it to 1500 and then hit it with the CA.  (Anything more, there, seems to be pointless, since - my guess -the surface  'inflates' and becomes slightly distorted when it absorbs the CA, ruining anything you did past 1500.)  Then just shine up the CA for that grain popping, "under glass" look.


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## writestuff (Oct 20, 2009)

*Sanding?*

I've always thought that the idea was for each sucessive grit was to remove all signs of the previous grit. I sand from 120,220,320, 400, 600.  and sand each grit veticly and horizontly.  I've struggled all my life with the scratch mark problem, and fine with my sanding it is a matter of Patience. 
Bob


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## splinter99 (Oct 20, 2009)

Well, This will open a can of worms but I never sand past 400 grit. I start with 220 grit norten 3x, then move to 400. On darker woods I apply a dab of EEE and burnish it in. I remove all residue of the EEE, wipe with acetone or spritz with accelerator then apply 10 coats of thin ca. I used to micromesh the wood but saw no advantage to it. I save my micro mesh for sanding out the ca. I used to have tons of problems getting a good ca finish every time but since I re-thought my approach the last 100 or so pens have been "spot on"


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## John Eberly (Oct 20, 2009)

*Sanding past 400*



splinter99 said:


> Well, This will open a can of worms but I never sand past 400 grit.


 
X2

I usually start with 220, go to 320, then 400.

I also wet sand the CA with 400 wet-or-dry auto paper if it gets bumpy.

I don't really feel the need to defend this, but I'd like to point out that that's SOP for furniture finishing.

To each his own!


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## BigguyZ (Oct 21, 2009)

I only go to about 320 with the wood, wet sanding with mineral spirits.  Then I let the blank dry off, then use a drop of BLO and burnish that in to deepen the color.  Then I let the blank sit and dry/ cure, and then I add the CA.  Now that I sand to 1200MM and finally finish with 3M rubbing compound.


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## GouletPens (Oct 22, 2009)

BigguyZ said:


> I only go to about 320 with the wood, wet sanding with mineral spirits. Then I let the blank dry off, then use a drop of BLO and burnish that in to deepen the color. Then I let the blank sit and dry/ cure, and then I add the CA. Now that I sand to 1200MM and finally finish with 3M rubbing compound.


 You would be the first person I've heard say they wet sand the wood itself. Do you do that to keep the dust down? I'm trying to see the real benefit of wet sanding wood.


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## BigguyZ (Oct 22, 2009)

GouletPens said:


> You would be the first person I've heard say they wet sand the wood itself. Do you do that to keep the dust down? I'm trying to see the real benefit of wet sanding wood.



I saw it on a video for a woodturner doing bowls.  I tried it on a small bowl, and it worked really well, so I started doing that for pens as well.  

I find that wet sanding wood has the same benefits of wet sanding acrylics- keeps the dust down, smoother sanding/ finish, and the paper cloggs less.  Also, it will highlight any irregularities in the surface that down show up dry sanding, but will telegraph under a finish.

Also- I use MS for acrylic and the CA layer as well, not water.  The MS doesn't pool up on the lathe, and won't make it rust.  

Put some in a rockler squirt bottle:
http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=1424&filter=55921&pn=55921
Then I use a rag against the blank while spinning, which soaks up the excess MS and acts like a resivoir.  So the blank's constantly being "washed" and you get a very smooth finish.  

I reccomend trying it.  Most everyone has a rag and MS, so it shouldn't cost anything in materials.


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## PTownSubbie (Oct 22, 2009)

BigguyZ said:


> I reccomend trying it. Most everyone has a rag and MS, so it shouldn't cost anything in materials.


 
Will DNA work the same? I have been using DNA to clean the blank between sanding grits..... How does DNA differ from MS?


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## BigguyZ (Oct 22, 2009)

I would assume anything with a high vapor pressure would be effective- either DNA or MS.  I haven't tried DNA, so I can't say for sure.  I do know that MS won't dissolve the acrylics I've used or CA, and it hasn't raised the grain on any of the wood I've used it on...


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## jleiwig (Oct 22, 2009)

My understanding for using the DNA is to raise the grain during sanding.  

This could be beneficial on woods like oak and such, but I see no benefit on burls or other tight grained woods.


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## Daniel (Oct 22, 2009)

Can you use it on wood? Yes. Should you use it on Wood? well at least give it a try and see if yo like what you get. I am of the school of thought that it is best to polish the wood as much as you can before you apply your finish. I thin polish the finish. this is applying a shine over a shine. I used to have a link to a whole explaination of what this is doing optically but no longer have it. Bottom line is I like my finishes and that is what it is all about anyway.


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## RussFairfield (Oct 23, 2009)

Whether to sand with MM or not before putting the finish on a pen is a question you will have to answer for yourself. Try it yourself and see if the extra 2 mionutes makes a difference. Some can tell the difference, and some can't. If you are selling your pens, the only opinion that matters is your customers.


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## GouletPens (Oct 23, 2009)

RussFairfield said:


> Whether to sand with MM or not before putting the finish on a pen is a question you will have to answer for yourself. Try it yourself and see if the extra 2 mionutes makes a difference. Either way, you will have your answer.
> 
> I sand through 12,000-MM do for a lacquer or shellac finish because I can tell the difference in the brilliance of the finish. I stop at 400 grit for other finishes because I cannot tell the difference. Others will disagree.


 I think this is an important difference to point out....the type of finish will make a difference in the sanding you do. If you're doing CA it will build very quickly and 'fill' small scratches left by sanding grits 400 and above. A natural finish like shellac (Woodturner's Finish, French Polish, etc) will need MANY MANY coats to build like CA, and almost no one will take the timet o put on 20 coats of Woodturner's Finish on their pen (That's an estimation). Bob Flexner talks about this very point in his book Understanding Wood Finishing. Although the book is about finishing furniture (mostly), he talks specifically about the debate of what grit to stop sanding before applying the finish. In a nutshell, there is no steadfast rule, but he talks about how building up multiple layers of finish can compensate for stopping sanding at a lower grit (I think he's talking about 220 gt in the book). I think maybe some of us hang on to our habits of sanding the wood to a high grit from our early days of working with natural finishes, but we don't question the methods when switching over to CA. I say try them both and see for yourself what you like.:biggrin:


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## PaulSF (Oct 29, 2009)

When using the micromesh on wood, do you wet-sand, and if so, do you use water or some other product like wax?


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## Daniel (Oct 29, 2009)

I have heard of wet sanding wood with MM and Mineral Spirits.


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## BigguyZ (Oct 29, 2009)

When I wet sand wood (which I always do), I only use MS.  I wouldn't use water b/c it'd raise the grain.  Not only that, the water will rust the lathe unless you get all of the moisture off.  The MS will not, so there's no worry there.


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