# Turning tools-Carbide vs. HHS



## Haynie (Aug 4, 2011)

Been looking at threads on tools, and looking at tools on websites and there sure is a LOT of choices out there.

right out of the gate never turned anything in wood what would you recommend to someone?

I like not having to sharpen the Carbide tools but they sure are expensive

HSS seems very cost effective but there are HUGE price differences and I have no idea where to start.  I do know that cheap does not always mean good and a good tool is well worth the money in saved frustration.  I want to turn other things besides pens too.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.


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## Oldmanwheeler (Aug 4, 2011)

Haynie said:


> Been looking at threads on tools, and looking at tools on websites and there sure is a LOT of choices out there.
> 
> right out of the gate never turned anything in wood what would you recommend to someone?
> 
> ...



I too am relatively new to turning, been at it about 6 months and have jumped in with both feet.  I have a complete kit of HSS tool and up until recently they were all I used.  Even went out and purchased a Jet Wet/Dry sharpener.

About three weeks ago I decided to break down and buy an Easy Wood Tool Cmi2 and Cmi3, both designed for pen turning.  I find myself using the carbide EWT tools 99% of the time.  In fact I just ordered the full size  carbide EWT for doing canes.  I usually have to start with a 2 X 2 blank so I figure the larger tool couldn't hurt.

Which is best for you?  Only you can decide that but my opinion is you can either buy the HSS tools or invest in the Easy Wood Tool carbide tools.


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## Chthulhu (Aug 4, 2011)

Carbide won't take an edge as sharp as high speed steel will. It's great for roughing, and you can take off a lot more material with each pass, but if you want a good pre-sanding finish, especially on something like acrylic, you want HSS.

I bought a $33 set of indexable carbide tools for my metal lathe, but have been getting better results on metals and plastics from a $5 set of assorted HSS bits bought from Harbor Freight.

If you want the best of both worlds, buy the carbide tools for which there are also HSS inserts.


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## Ruby pen turning (Aug 4, 2011)

All I use is carbide and I have no problem getting a smooth finish on any material.
Some will say you need to learn the old way and sharpen your own tools. BS. We don`t go back in time and use a typewriter because it came before the computer do we?


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## Lenny (Aug 4, 2011)

Get a set of Harbor Freight HSS turning chisels. 

http://www.harborfreight.com/8-piece-high-speed-steel-wood-lathe-chisel-set-47066.html

They will get you started very nicely and give you a chance to learn how to sharpen them properly without breaking the bank (Or making you cry if the learning curve is steep on the sharpening) :biggrin:

I still use mine often but REALLY LOVE my Woodchuck Pen Pro carbide tool made by Ken Ferrell (IAP member: bitshird)


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## el_d (Aug 4, 2011)

I got a Sorby HSS skew that I never use. I keep thinking I'm gonna learn to use the beast AND learn to sharpen the thing. Plus I dont have the money to invest in the sharpening equipment. Sooo.......

I got me the full size "ADULT" woodchuck. I really do love the thing and use it for everything I have ever done in the past 3 years. I use it from the Roughing down to final diameter then go straight into the CA. No sanding needed.

Just touch up the carbide insert with a diamond card sharpener and your ready to go at it again. 

Instill need to get the round woodchuck........


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## ssajn (Aug 4, 2011)

Maybe I'm just old. My grand kids tell me I am. Anyway, I've used HSS for years before trying carbide. I want back to HSS. I like the results I get with HSS so the carbide just sit there. The grand daughters also prefer HSS. Carbide may have it's place but it's not in my shop.


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## KenV (Aug 4, 2011)

Chthulhu said:


> Carbide won't take an edge as sharp as high speed steel will. It's great for roughing, and you can take off a lot more material with each pass, but if you want a good pre-sanding finish, especially on something like acrylic, you want HSS.
> 
> I bought a $33 set of indexable carbide tools for my metal lathe, but have been getting better results on metals and plastics from a $5 set of assorted HSS bits bought from Harbor Freight.
> 
> If you want the best of both worlds, buy the carbide tools for which there are also HSS inserts.




Mike -- If you get the good fine grain carbide intended for wood turning, it is every bit as sharp as good long wearing powered metal steels.   The stuff for metal working is not the same.   Get a high powered magnification and take a look -   and read some of the discussion in the AAW Journals -   

I like Thompson tools and those carbide insert tools sold by Ken Ferrell, Mike Hunter, and Craig Jackson.  They will not work especially well in the metal lathe cutting metal, but they do slick wood and plastics just fine.   Why Thompson -- the A10/A11 steels have very long wear cycles and do not need to be touched up on the grinder near as often as some of the imports.   I like to turn more than I like working on the grinder.





The fine grain carbides coming out of germany and japan (also called nano-grain carbides) are not the same as the cheap stuff for metal work.


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## corian king (Aug 4, 2011)

I used HSS for years.Then a friend of mine told me to try the "ROTONDO" that is sold by a member on here "wood-of-one-kind" I think thats right. anyway I use this tool 99% on the time for all materials and I can get any material as slick as anyone can using HSS.The other thing is the carbide lasts a long time before you even have to turn the tip for a new surface.Of course this is just my opinion.


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## IPD_Mr (Aug 4, 2011)

Chthulhu said:


> Carbide won't take an edge as sharp as high speed steel will. It's great for roughing, and you can take off a lot more material with each pass, but if you want a good pre-sanding finish, especially on something like acrylic, you want HSS.


 
This works totally opposite for me.  I will round a blank with a 5/8" Lacer skew then do the rest with carbide Wood Pen Pro.  The benefit for me is, it virtually cuts out sanding with 220-320 and 400 grit sand paper.  I go straight to the MM right after the carbide.


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## Linarestribe (Aug 4, 2011)

I have both sets and find the carbide to be great. I don't know the technique for roughing with it as it seems to take forever to get round. Lately I round with the roughing gouge then take passes from the side to remove material fast then smooth with the uni-tool, going straight to MM.

I would like to see more tutorials on carbide use.

Jorge


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## Chthulhu (Aug 5, 2011)

KenV said:


> Chthulhu said:
> 
> 
> > Carbide won't take an edge as sharp as high speed steel will. It's great for roughing, and you can take off a lot more material with each pass, but if you want a good pre-sanding finish, especially on something like acrylic, you want HSS.
> ...



Good to know; thank you. I mainly work in metal and plastics, rarely in wood, and am limited to the inserts that fit standard metalworking tooling. When and if I start working more in wood, I'll try to remember this and get appropriate tooling, and probably a wood lathe as well. <G>


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## Dave Turner (Aug 5, 2011)

I think you really need both HSS and carbide tipped tools. Yes, for purely pen turning, you can get by with a carbide tool and a nice parting tool (for doing kits with tenons). I have both the Easy Wood Ci1 Easy Rougher and Woodchuck Pen Pro. Both work great on pens. I do like the longer handle on the Easy Rougher, but you can also put a longer handle on the Pen Pro if you want.

The better quality HSS tools will hold their edge a lot longer than the less expensive ones. I bought the Pinnacle Cryogenic 5 piece set from Woodcraft when I first started.  If you go with individual tools rather than a set, you will get longer handles, which is nice. If you want to do any spindle work, a nice spindle gouge is a must. Actually both a 3/8 inch and a very small one for detailed finial work would be nice. After some practice, I can make a skew work, but I don't particularly enjoy using it for reducing diameters. There are a few things, like making defined edges or V grooves that can only be done with a skew. Finally, I find a roughing gouge to be the quickest way to round a blank and bring it down to near final size before switching over to my carbide tipped tool. If I get too aggressive with my carbide tipped tool, blanks tend to explode.

I've not mentioned anything about bowl gouges or hollowing tools.


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## kovalcik (Aug 5, 2011)

I have both and always gravitate to HSS. Could be I just do not know Ho to use the carbide tools, but I get a near perfect finish with a Sharp skew.


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## ohiococonut (Aug 5, 2011)

Haynie said:


> Been looking at threads on tools, and looking at tools on websites and there sure is a LOT of choices out there.
> 
> *right out of the gate never turned anything in wood what would you recommend to someone*?
> 
> ...


 
HSS period. Once you learn how to use and sharpen them then you can decide if you want carbide. I have and use both but carbide does have its limitations when it comes to making certain cuts simply because of the shape of the insert(s).


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## bitshird (Aug 5, 2011)

Chthulhu said:


> Carbide won't take an edge as sharp as high speed steel will. It's great for roughing, and you can take off a lot more material with each pass, but if you want a good pre-sanding finish, especially on something like acrylic, you want HSS.
> 
> I bought a $33 set of indexable carbide tools for my metal lathe, but have been getting better results on metals and plastics from a $5 set of assorted HSS bits bought from Harbor Freight.
> 
> If you want the best of both worlds, buy the carbide tools for which there are also HSS inserts.


The inserts for the 5 piece indexable sets are normally C-5for steel 0r C-2 which is primarily for cast Iron, These work great if you touch them up with a diamond wheel,  neither of these is available in either Micro grain or Nano grain in a C-3 grade equivalent these will take as keen an edge as HSS. I also have to agree with KenV about the Thompson tools A11 is an excellent material for turning tools, "IF THEY ARE HEAT TREATED PROPERLY" Doug has about the best there is, I have also made a few Carbide tools, Called the Woodchuck Pen Pro and a pretty decent Bowl tool and I use them all, the only tool I have any trouble using is a Skew. 



Linarestribe said:


> I have both sets and find the carbide to be great. I don't know the technique for roughing with it as it seems to take forever to get round. Lately I round with the roughing gouge then take passes from the side to remove material fast then smooth with the uni-tool, going straight to MM.
> 
> 
> I would like to see more tutorials on carbide use.
> ...


Jorge, Keep your tool rest as close as you can get it to your work piece, I round every thing on my lathe before I drill it,  I just use a dead center in the headstock, and a live center in the tail. 
I promise I will get some tutorials up besides this one,  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_g1iqk2R_bc Which really isn't much of a direction as I need to explain what I'm doing,  we are finally ahead on tools so as soon as I get caught up on Handles, Oddly enough since the principle is basically the same, I'll try and Video that, I'ts just a big pen, that won't write, but it's still turning with carbide.



kovalcik said:


> I have both and always gravitate to HSS. Could be I just do not know Ho to use the carbide tools, but I get a near perfect finish with a Sharp skew.



About the best I can do on a pen from good wood is start sanding at 400 grit on good acrylics either PR or Alumilite start sanding at 600 if I want to get totally anal I can get by starting at 800 grit. I know some people that say they don't need to sand after a skew, and I believe it, the few times I've been successful with a Skew I've been amazed, I just can't consistently hit that mark, I've heard it said by many turners that the Skew Chisel is the hardest tool to master. I prefer carbide because it's faster for me, I keep trying though. So far the only thing I have found that carbide doesn't work as well on is use as a bowl scraper, I use one tool with an 18mm round razor sharp insert that does come close, but will still pull grain on softer woods.


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## KenV (Aug 5, 2011)

Mike -- kind of like brass turning with carbide -- the people I am learning from find the high speed steel bits with a flat top and curved edge, polished to a mirror finish gives a better surface than the carbide bits and they do not have to high speeds.   

They use high speed steel inserts if the need to use indexable inserts (Little machine shop sells them  -- or get them from Warner).


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## PenMan1 (Aug 5, 2011)

[/quote]

HSS period. Once you learn how to use and sharpen them then you can decide if you want carbide. I have and use both but carbide does have its limitations when it comes to making certain cuts simply because of the shape of the insert(s).[/quote]

I find EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE to be true. I have HSS tools, carbide insert cutters and carbide skews, gouges and parting tools. When I must have a precise edge and very delicate angle,there is not a tool in the shop that works as well as a VERY sharp carbide-tipped skew.

If you want to check this for yourself, make two cuts on the same material. One with HSS steel and one with a sharp carbide skew. Then view both cuts under a 17x jewelers lupe. There is simply no comparison. The carbide cut is hands down the cleaner cut.

Quality carbide tools have a higher initial cash outlay, but pay for themselves quickly in saved sand paper and micromesh.

IMHO, HSS is fine for wood sanded to 600 grit and friction finished, but simply not acceptable for most alternative materials or high gloss CA finished wood.

Respectfully submitted.


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## ohiococonut (Aug 5, 2011)

Andy I have no doubt what you're saying is true but my comment was aimed strictly at carbide inserts. As long as you have tools with carbide tips brazed on you can do anything. 
Is there a carbide tool that takes inserts that can cut 1/8" beads/coves or deep grooves? Or a 3/8" half round that transitions into an 1/8" bead? I dunno  My experience with carbide insert tools with wood is pretty much limited to the woodchuck pen pro which does have it's limitations. I still love it though!


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