# Which World we are living in ....?



## Darley (Dec 5, 2007)

I'm sorry for you all especially for the families,

http://tinyurl.com/2sv2rr

But we are not far away from you,

http://tinyurl.com/36uwlp

Better to come to visite some of you and get couple 45 to give to my chidren they might needed.


----------



## gketell (Dec 5, 2007)

I need a license to carry just so any wackos who think they have free reign will have another think comin'.  Sheeez

GK


----------



## jcollazo (Dec 5, 2007)

While the world has defintely changed, I remember 2 events in my life from about 25-26 years ago.... 1. Being in Israel for about a 3 month period I noticed that the Israelis worked very hard to be hospitable, polite and just generally nice. The second was at a major gun show in L.A. County. I had to take my (then) 1 year-old son becuase my wife was working that day. Again, everyone was polite, nice, and made plenty of room for the stroller. 

My point... an armed society can definitely be a safe polite society. It might be simplistic, but it works for me.


----------



## WWAtty (Dec 6, 2007)

I used to have relatives in Omaha, and had been to that mall a number of times in the past.  It's a great town, and considered one of the safest among cities its size.  Yet it just goes to show that these loony-toons can pop up anywhere.

My thoughts are with the people there.


----------



## Ligget (Dec 6, 2007)

Terrible, I seen it on the TV news over here!


----------



## gerryr (Dec 6, 2007)

> _Originally posted by jcollazo_
> <br />While the world has defintely changed, I remember 2 events in my life from about 25-26 years ago.... 1. Being in Israel for about a 3 month period I noticed that the Israelis worked very hard to be hospitable, polite and just generally nice. The second was at a major gun show in L.A. County. I had to take my (then) 1 year-old son becuase my wife was working that day. Again, everyone was polite, nice, and made plenty of room for the stroller.
> 
> My point... an armed society can definitely be a safe polite society. It might be simplistic, but it works for me.



So, since the US seems to be getting more unsafe, we should all be better armed?


----------



## guts (Dec 6, 2007)

Gerry,you can bet that I am and I mean no harm to anyone,but I have the right to defend myself and will do so if I have to.


----------



## gerryr (Dec 6, 2007)

Has anyone stopped to consider why the US has the highest rate of gun crimes like this of any developed nation?  People with serious psychological problems like the kid in Omaha and the the Virginia Tech shooter can too easily purchase guns.


----------



## gketell (Dec 6, 2007)

That is one veiw, Gerry.  Another is because the wackos know that if they go out with their gun there will very likely be no one around with a gun to stop them so why shouldn't they.  If 1 in 10 of us all had/carried guns (and yes, rigorous tests before being given the license to carry is a good thing) then I bet this would stop.  

"I'm going to go shoot up the town!  Oh wait, they can/will shoot back.  Maybe not."

What you are seeing is exactly what happens when "only the crooks have guns".  And in every country on earth, the crooks have guns.  

GK


----------



## Firefyter-emt (Dec 6, 2007)

The kid in Omaha apparently stole the gun from his father in law if I have the relation correct.  

The real problem is WE are too STUPID to realize that he have to stop teaching our kids that there is no right or wrong. Now in baseball games they do not want to keep score (we cannot have losers) Kids need to be taught that they do loose at times and they DO need to be held for their actions.  When we do not make out children right their wrongs, they learn there is no recourse for what they do.  Combine that with a huge dose of "conditioning" from violent movies, shooting video games and other improper exposure, are we to be surprised by this??!!


----------



## DRP460 (Dec 6, 2007)

gketell, this was a disturbed, troubled kid that had gone from one foster home to another. he took the gun from where he was staying. He wasn't a criminal before.
He left a suicide note behind, so was intent on ending up dead. I don't think he worrying about who was going to kill him.
By having more people with guns, more guns get into the wrong hands, more bullets get into the wrong people. Do the math.

Guns don't kill people, people with guns kill people.


----------



## LostintheWoods (Dec 6, 2007)

"People with guns kill people"....okay, but "when guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns". On exactly WHAT level of insanity does denying people the right to self-defense make ANY kind of sense???


----------



## DocStram (Dec 6, 2007)

> _Originally posted by gketell_
> <br />What you are seeing is exactly what happens when "only the crooks have guns".  And in every country on earth, the crooks have guns.
> 
> GK



I'm with Gerry on this one.  "What you are seeing" is exactly what happens when guns are too easily accessible and readily available. Cliches like "Guns don't kill people, people with guns kill people" are just that ... simplistic, trite expressions that are overused.


----------



## gerryr (Dec 6, 2007)

Handguns are not legal in Canada and they don't have nearly the gun violence that the US has.  Why does anyone outside of law enforcement need a 9mm Glock or a Bushmaster?  The problem is that there are just way too many people who think they're John Wayne.  Suppose some number of people at the mall in Omaha had been armed and decided they would take care of the shooter.  How many more people would have died because of indiscriminate shooting at someone they "thought" was the shooter?  Talk to law enforcement officers and they will tell you that it's far too easy to buy or steal guns.


----------



## DRP460 (Dec 6, 2007)

I see nothing wrong with gun ownership, I don't currently own one, have had my FAC and been an instructor. What is needed is gun laws.... let me rephase that, sensible gun laws.

Being locked up, away from ammo, reasonable waiting times for purchase.

The NRA are a huge lobby and fight any attempt at enacting laws that will provide a level of safety.
Illegal purchase of guns happen all the time as does the fact that many legal guns fall into the wrong hands, be it children or through theft.

Some places have more requirements for riding a bike than for carrying a lethal weapon.
That's insane.

I believe people should be able to protect themselves, but without some measure of gun control people are at risk, they are not safer.


----------



## DRP460 (Dec 6, 2007)

gerryr,
Hand guns are not illegal in Canada, they are controlled weapons.
An FAC (Firearms Acquisition Certificate) is required for anyone to own or use a firearm, a special licence is required for purchasing a controlled firearm.

None of this should be a big deal for lawful hunters or target shooters.

That said, our government created a monster with the gun registry.
We're talking idiots that shouldn't be allowed to own guns themselves or any kind of decision making.


----------



## jcollazo (Dec 6, 2007)

Earlier this year a young man with a history of mental problems attacked a passerby near my brother's place in Seattle. The young man beat the passerby to the ground. On his back, the passerby pulled his registered handgun and shot (killed) his assailant. On one hand I applaud the victim for taking care of the problem right there and then. But, I'm also sincerely sorry for the assailant. Here was a man (early twenties) with these problems and family and authorities, who knew about these problems, could not help him. 

I would rather see money spent on people with real mental health issues (like Omaha and VA Tech) then on run of the mill druggies who create their own problem and don't use the 1,001 susbstance abuse programs available.[!]

I'm just venting. The world has gotten stranger and there are no easy answers.


----------



## workinforwood (Dec 7, 2007)

Perhaps the media is part of the problem.  You see the kids suicide note..now I'm gonna be famous.  And he's right, we gave him what he wanted even though he took from us what wasn't his to take.

There's a million ways to argue the situation of the shooting story, why it happens, how it could have been stopped.  Only thing that's ever going to stop it is if the entire planet of people are all individually locked into a cell by themselves.  There is no guaranteed way to identify someone that is going to go off the deep end.  Take away guns, they'll use knives, make bombs or whatever else.  Blame society, Blame the parents...we don't know all his situation or what his parents were like.  We only know the parts the media wants to feed us.


----------



## Gary Max (Dec 7, 2007)

I never leave the house without a gun. I have worked myself to death getting this old and I ain't going to have some 19 year old putting a end to my life----I still have plenty of wood that needs to be worked.
Plus if you folks keep giving up your rights what will you have left??
And if we are ever attacked but any outside power---head for my house we will make a stand here.
"I could do this all day long"--Larry The Cable Guy


----------



## DocStram (Dec 7, 2007)

> _Originally posted by Gary Max_
> <br />I never leave the house without a gun. I have worked myself to death getting this old and I ain't going to have some 19 year old putting a end to my life----I still have plenty of wood that needs to be worked.
> Plus if you folks keep giving up your rights what will you have left??
> And if we are ever attacked but any outside power---head for my house we will make a stand here.
> "I could do this all day long"--Larry The Cable Guy



..... and I ALWAYS leave my house WITHOUT a gun. It's guys with guns that worry me ... even the ones who misinterpret "militia" for "individual".


----------



## Gary Max (Dec 7, 2007)

What about ----The right to Bare Arms.
Folks need to be careful about giving up our rights----Heck I saw a parking lot last week that had No Smoking signs---how stupid is that-----and No I don't smoke but the sign --still makes me mad----This is a free Country.
I can do this all day long "Larry The Cable Guy"


----------



## DocStram (Dec 7, 2007)

OK, Gary ... time to lighten this up with a little humor! Even though the gun issue is something we don't agree upon, at least we share a passion for penturning! Right? []


----------



## wood-of-1kind (Dec 7, 2007)

> _Originally posted by gerryr_
> <br />Handguns are not legal in Canada and they don't have nearly the gun violence that the US has.



True to some extent. Unfortunately there is a great traffic of incoming handguns being smuggled in from the USA. Sad to say, that we are mimicking our US neighbour with the escalating gun violence.

Personally I'd prefer if someone smuggled in a nice pen kit instead of a Glock.[] May peace and common sense prevail.

-Peter-[]


----------



## gketell (Dec 7, 2007)

"May peace and common sense prevail."

Yes please!!!

GK


----------



## Gary Max (Dec 7, 2007)

Hey what about that cash crop of drugs that comes in from Canada every year?????


----------



## fuzzydog (Dec 7, 2007)

I have long resisted any type of gun registration etc. I remember doing a debate in
high school over this issue and one fact that I found was that there have been more 
people killed with bow and arrow than with guns. I can't quote the source so please 
don't ask. But the Nazi party managed to get mandatory gun registration in place before they took over, it made it easy to go from door to door to collect weapons of
resistance members.
I think that alot of the problem is with todays tv and video games, we have steralized the gore of death to the point that it has no concequence to our young people. I have heard players make comments like "look at this cool blood spray". I could not help but think that kid should have been in Vietnam, he'd have a different attitude.
Gun registration is not the solution, responsibility for ones action is. or at least it's a good first step.


----------



## DocStram (Dec 7, 2007)

> _Originally posted by gketell_
> <br />"May peace and common sense prevail."
> 
> Yes please!!!
> ...


I don't know Greg ... I just can't decide between the Uzi Pistol or that Arsenal M7.  []


----------



## gketell (Dec 7, 2007)

Doc,  I know that is in jest but you get me wrong.  I don't believe there is any reason for a lay person to own either of those weapons or any "fully automatic" weapon.  But a rifle and a pistol for personal protection, everyone should have one AND BE TRAINED in their proper use.

I guarantee that if I had a pistol or a rifle and someone came near me shooting at others, that person and only that person would be short lived.  I have been raised with weapons my entire life and trained since I was 9 to always know what is down range of the target before shooting and to only shoot when I know I can hit the target. When I was 15 I put 5 rounds into a space less than an inch long by 1/4 inch high at 50 yards with my Sears and Robuck, open-site .22 rifle.  in the military I did equally as well with M16s and pistols.

And, if you are carrying for personal protection, you choose your ammo to match.  You don't want high power, deep penetrating rounds.  You want something that will travel to your target and stop there.  One of the best is something called Glazer Safety Slugs which are bullets that are plastic encased bird shot.  Flies like a bullet, hits like a shot gun blast.  And if you miss, it will not penetrate two layers of drywall nor will it ricochet so your chances of hitting someone else by mistake are nearly nil.  But it WILL stop the assailant even when it isn't a lethal shot.  It puts the body into shock.  There have been cases where a "love handle" hit stopped the bad guy.

If the mall guards had been properly trained and tested (psychological as well skill) and were armed appropriately that shooting would not have gone on as long as it did.

GK
(who, btw, owns no guns at this time and is not a member of NRA because I think they are "over the top" on many issues)


----------



## wood-of-1kind (Dec 7, 2007)

> _Originally posted by Gary Max_
> <br />Hey what about that cash crop of drugs that comes in from Canada every year?????



I didn't know that ripe, delicious Mcintosh apples were lethal[)][]

-Peter-[]


----------



## pssherman (Dec 7, 2007)

> _Originally posted by wood-of-1kind_
> <br />
> 
> 
> ...


Peter,
Didn't you know that apple seeds contain a cyanide compound?[)] Fortunately, the hard shell of the seed prevents it from being released unless you crush or chew them. Even then, you would have to chew the seeds from a large number of apples at one time before they would do any harm. Seems the human body can detoxify small quantities of the cyanide compound so that there is no cumulative effect.[]

BTW, there are other fruits and vegetables that contain poisons.
EDIT: http://www.snopes.com/food/warnings/apples.asp

Paul in AR


----------



## Glass Scratcher (Dec 7, 2007)

last time I was really fired up and did the research the FBI had a great crime statistics database online.  I just checked the most recent crime stats and what a change.  Used to be the you were more likely to be beaten to death with a 2x4 but the percentages have sure changed.

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2006/index.html


----------



## Jim in Oakville (Dec 7, 2007)

I think there is no single or simple solution.  I have listened to many points of view on Guns, Gun Control. Etc.

What I know is that guns don't care who pulls the trigger and guns do not have the ability to think or reason.  The One with that control is the one holding it, but given that I don't trust any one with a gun unless they are in law.

There are many thoughts and misconceptions about gun control in Canada, yes we have a National murder rate of about 1.7 per 100,000 on average (Toronto a city slightly larer than Chicago has a 1.7per 100,000, Montreal is 1.6 per 100,000) but look at Indianapolis in 2006, it was 13.5 per 100,000...so yes there are problems, but if we can't trust human beings with guns then we need to control humans until they get it right, but will humans ever get it right?!?![]  of course not.

I worked as a geologist in the 80's in the arctic in isolation on the barrens for 5-6 months a year...I owned a 357 mag and a 12 gauge shot gun for protection (polar bears etc), I went through a great deal to get a fire arms acquisition permit to buy these weapons, and,   I hated every second I had to carry one, but  would I work with out one in that enviornment, NEVER..

Common sense is not equally common to all, to me common sense says that gun laws that were written in 1700's need to be revisited and made real for real times, and not be hidden behind some belief that they are cast in stone for all eternity...so as long as Canada stays relatively Gun less compared to the US then I am glad to remain a Canadian and live in this enviornment


----------



## DocStram (Dec 7, 2007)

> _Originally posted by Glass Scratcher_
> <br />last time I was really fired up and did the research the FBI had a great crime statistics database online.  I just checked the most recent crime stats and what a change.  Used to be the you were more likely to be beaten to death with a 2x4 but the percentages have sure changed.
> 
> http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2006/index.html


Speaking about being beaten with a 2x4 ..... did I ever tell you about the time (way back in the 60s) my 10th grade wood shop teacher paddled me with a 2x4?  He used to wear one of those old long shop coats. If I remember correctly, he was teaching us how to build birdhouses. While he was demonstrating the correct way of holding a hammer ..... I carefully lifted up the end of his shop coat and nailed it to the workbench. As he tried to walk away .... well, you get the picture. He then slid off the shop coat and told me to bend over.  He had a 2x4 in his hand. I was about 5 feet away from a bandsaw.  I remember him saying .... "You're going to need a bigger landing space. Move away from the bandsaw."  And then he let it rip.   
I took my medicine like a man and learned a lesson about respect.   [:0]

Incidentally, my mom and dad never heard this story. If my dad had ever found out what I had done ... I would have eaten a 2x4. []


----------



## DocStram (Dec 7, 2007)

By the way, GK ... please know that in my own sarcastic way ... I was agreeing with you.  Absolutely .... "May peace and common sense prevail."  []


----------



## Gary Max (Dec 7, 2007)

Al you are going to get one started with that post.
Beating children at school-----oh gosh what has the world come to.


----------



## guts (Dec 7, 2007)

Hey Al,his name was'nt Alexander Zajac was it?[:0]


----------



## bitshird (Dec 7, 2007)

As an assistant instructor at a technical school, I donâ€™t think corporal punishment should ever have been halted in schools, especially junior high school and high school, if a few more of these whacked out crack heads had had their rear ends lit up, perhaps we could have a kinder more polite society, rather than add new laws regarding gun control, lets just enforce the existing ones VIGORUSLY.
If we are going to control any thing, lets try and control politicians; theyâ€™re far more dangerous than guns


----------



## Gary Max (Dec 8, 2007)

Ken that has to be the best post I have read in this tread yet. I tried selling "Education Boards" at a show once. You would not believe the negative responce that brought.


----------



## CrazyBear (Dec 8, 2007)

In britain handgun ownership was banned after the Dunblane Massacre, where a legally held firearm was used to kill many young children, rifle and shotgun owners have to go through STRINGENT checks to obtain a licence to own a firearm and ANY type of court conviction could cost the firearm owner that licence. The licence has to be renewed every 3 years and the licence is issued by the police.

However if someone has an identifiable requirement and has passed all the checks then that licence will most probably be granted.

Most people REQUIRING firearms/shotguns have them. 

Yes we do have gun crime in this country but this is mostly carried out using illegal firearms and commited by young men who have been raised in a gang culture of rap music where gun crime and killing is cool ( and where did this originate from, Thanks you America).

To those who state that their gun will only be removed from their Cold dead hands.It probably wil be, unless some form of gun control is brought in.

Just an outsiders point of view after 24 years of picking up the pieces of violent incidents in every shape and form


----------



## Ozzy (Dec 8, 2007)

> _Originally posted by Jim in Oakville_
> I worked as a geologist in the 80's in the arctic in isolation on the barrens for 5-6 months a year...I owned a 357 mag and a 12 gauge shot gun for protection (polar bears etc), I went through a great deal to get a fire arms acquisition permit to buy these weapons, and,   I hated every second I had to carry one, but  would I work with out one in that enviornment, NEVER..


You would not work in an environment unarmed because of wild animals (I would not either) but you are willing to walk around in a society full of armed criminals that think even less of you and your rights than a wild animal? I don't see the logic.

I live twelve miles from the Lubby's(it's not Lubby's anymore)in Killeen, Tx, that was shot up by a jerk. It was bad enough to see it on the news but I know people that were there. The main thing that sticks out in my mind is that one of the women owned a pistol but followed the law and left it in her truck. Because she obeyed the law, she got to watch this loser kill her parents.

I was not going to comment on this topic because its a no win situation. All of the anti-gun people think they are right and all of the pro-gun think that they are right and neither will ever change the others minds. Education is the key to everything, I was raised understanding the rules of gun safety and I am doing the same with my kids. I use my gun to hunt for food, I do not hunt for sport, but I can promise you that if someone was to break into my house and I had to defend my wife and kids, the intuder's life of crime would come to a screeching halt.


----------



## DocStram (Dec 8, 2007)

I think the really interesting thing about this thread is that it has not been shut down by the mods.  The anti-gunners haven't tried to pry the guns out of the cold dead fingers of the gunners ..... nor have the gun toting members tried to shoot up the place.  We've been able to carry on three pages of posts that represent extremely different positions. Sure, it's taken a little humor and restraint on our part and we won't ever reach consensus ... but, it's all been done in a rather friendly environment. Maybe if we got our the planet's leaders to start turning pens ...... the world would be a better place in which to live.


----------



## Gary Max (Dec 8, 2007)

Be careful Al---this could get ugly if we start talking about setting up at a show next to a "Planet Leader". They have to be the best Salesman/Saleswomen just look at what they try and sell us everyday on the news.


----------



## Jim in Oakville (Dec 8, 2007)

> _Originally posted by Ozzy_
> <br />
> 
> 
> ...



Well Ozzy That is my logic[]

We both live in different worlds....and I respect the differences.  We know from published stats that I am 7 times more likely to be killed by a gun in the US than Canada, but also in the wilds of the far north well above the tree line are so remote that should I need help it would be 3 days before a plane or helicopter could find me and assist.  So every story has supporting needs why they are unique such as my norther example.

I am not an anti gun or pro gun person, but I respect our differences and I know the Canadian story vs the US story is not an Apples to Apples example either...I know there are dangerous places in Toronto and other Canadian cities...but I chose to live where this topic is not an issue...[]


----------



## DocStram (Dec 8, 2007)

> I am not an anti gun or pro gun person, but I respect our differences and I know the Canadian story vs the US story is not an Apples to Apples example either...I know there are dangerous places in Toronto and other Canadian cities...but I chose to live where this topic is not an issue...[]



Careful Jim ..... talk like that will get more and more Americans thinking about moving to Canada.  Wish I would have done it in the 60s. []


----------



## gketell (Dec 8, 2007)

Personally I think "cities" is a big part of the issue.  Humans need space and peace to be able to unwind and mellow.  When you live in a big city finding that "space" is nearly impossible so you never "unwind" you just keep getting wound tighter and tighter until those with weak springs snap.

I think many of us on this board use our shop and lathe to find our peace and to unwind.  I know that in the past few days while working on this big pen order I've found a "inner peace" that has helped me not freak out and get angry every time something goes wrong.  I just reset and redo and marvel in the beauty of the final product.  Maybe we need to put creative outlet type stuff back into the schools so the kids can find what brings them their inner peace too.

Just a thought.
GK


----------



## TBone (Dec 8, 2007)

I see lots of statistics about Canada vs US.  However I don't think if you outlaw guns in the US we will mimic Canada.  There are just too many criminals in the US that are already importing contraband and the amount of guns they smuggle will only increase.  I think the difference between US and Canada has more to do with the people than the gun laws.  I think the problem is our culture.  The music, the video games and the lack of parental control, not to mention what drugs has done to the country. I believe if we knew the amount of crime that was directly related to drugs, it would give most of us a heart attack.  I'm like Doc in one respect, I got a whipping at school with an oak paddle and my dad never know about it when he died at 87.  If he had, I'd have gotten a second one.  However, I am also a gun owner.  Currently 13 of them with 2 permits to purchase in my possession right now.  However, in over 22 years of my pistol being with me every day, it has never harmed anyone, but it's there if I need it.  I just think that as long as guns are manufactured outside of the US, you can't outlaw them with any success.  It didn't work with cocaine, it won't work with guns.  I hear "if one live is saved, it's worth it".  Well did you ever consider if another person will lose their life from an armed criminal who is now more bold or from attacking someone who would have defended themselves but now can't?

I take a different approach on the kid at the mall.  For the last 4 years, I have worked for a Mental Health Center.  We have been transformed (by the State) from a service provider to a "management entity" and services have been turned over to private providers.  Some of the "reform" ideas are to get more people out of institutions and into "community based" programs and give them "choice" in their provider/counselor.  This is a total disaster.  More people are in the emergency rooms and jails (temporarily) that are being sent home because there isn't any help or the help isn't working because providers are more interested in profits than care.  More effort needs to be spent on real help for people with mental problems.  Both this kid and the one from Virginia Tech, should have received more help than they did.  They fell through the cracks.


----------



## MesquiteMan (Dec 8, 2007)

> _Originally posted by DocStram_
> <br />I think the really interesting thing about this thread is that it has not been shut down by the mods.



Trust me, Doc, it is being watched VERY CAREFULLY by me!  At first I was going to remove it since it is a political issue and politics are not tolerated at all on this site.  I decided to let it ride for a few hours to see what transpired and what direction it took.  I think the politics have stayed out of it for the most part and as long as it stays that way, the thread will continue to stay open.


----------



## DRP460 (Dec 8, 2007)

> _Originally posted by fuzzydog_
> <br />one fact that I found was that there have been more
> people killed with bow and arrow than with guns.



I recall this article, it was in the Colonial Times 27 Oct 1748.

I had kept the my copy because it had a flier for Buckskins and Racoon hats at the Trading Post[][]


----------



## Ozzy (Dec 9, 2007)

Jim,
I am glad that you took my comment for what it was, just my opinion. You are absolutely right,  we do live in two different worlds and, like myself, you realize that different is not wrong; its just different.


----------



## wudnhed (Dec 9, 2007)

> _Originally posted by gerryr_
> <br />Has anyone stopped to consider why the US has the highest rate of gun crimes like this of any developed nation?  People with serious psychological problems like the kid in Omaha and the the Virginia Tech shooter can too easily purchaseguns.



My only problem with this statement is the guns are not USUALLY purchased.  Guns are left accessible by uncaring, unthinking family and or friends.

My thoughts and prayers are with the families of the victims in their time of sorrow.


----------



## Jim in Oakville (Dec 9, 2007)

> _Originally posted by Ozzy_
> <br />Jim,
> I am glad that you took my comment for what it was, just my opinion. You are absolutely right,  we do live in two different worlds and, like myself, you realize that different is not wrong; its just different.



[]  Yes, and I do appreciate that you and I can have this discussion and still be very civil and open minded, Thank You...[]


----------



## Texatdurango (Dec 9, 2007)

> _Originally posted by gketell_
> <br />....I guarantee that if I had a pistol or a rifle and someone came near me shooting at others, that person and only that person would be short lived.....


I have read several pages of this thread and this particular post worries me the most mainly because it's by someone who THINKS they are adequately prepared for any situation and prepared to take deadly action to right the wrongs of the world.

Greg, don't get too offended but you and people like you scare the heck out of me and I am a gun owner.  using your statement above let's run through a scenario.

You are out Christmas shopping with your wife at the local mall.  You just step outside of Sears on the second level and hear gun shots.

You see people running in every direction, ducking for cover all over then notice the shots are coming from the first level.

You peer over the balcony and there he is... a 17 year old punk crouched down beside the escalator shooting at a couple of kids near the entrance to JC Pennys.

Taking matters into your own hands, you decide to do the right thing before this low life can kill anyone else, so you pull out your trusty sidearm which you have been fully trained on and which contains the proper loads for mall shooting, make sure no innocent bystanders are in the line of fire and you shoot the scumbag.  Being an expert marksman, you drop the sucker with one well placed shot!  

<b>WELL DONE.... YOU HAVE SAVED THE DAY!  If there were more people like you around, things like this wouldn't be happening.</b>  But wait... those poor young kids near the entrance to JC Pennys that the punk was shooting at have guns!  OH my gosh, and they are still shooting all over the place.  They finally have enough and decide to kill themselves and do.

But what about the scumbag you killed?  Oh yeah, he wasn't really 17, he just looked young.  Actually he was an off duty police officer who had seen what was happening and was trying to control the situation... before you came along and botched things up!

Is this an over dramitization?  Could it happen?  I think it could just as easily happen as not and my point to all this is that regardless of how much you THINK you know about firearms, you are no more prepared than anyone else in the above situation!  The only dfference in the above scenario is that instead of 9 people dead, there are now 10... and THAT scares me, my nephew is a young rookie cop!


----------



## ldb2000 (Dec 9, 2007)

The biggest problem seems to be there is very little parental control over a large portion of this country . The states have taken most of it away...when i was a kid I was taught that if I did wrong there would be a very strong punishment when I got home...not abuse...but a lesson not to do it again nowadays sending your child to bed without dinner is considered neglect or child endangerment and giving yor child a spanking is considered abuse , well then I have been abused and endangered several times but I learned my lesson and to this day I have not killed a mall full of people .
It's time to change the way we do things...teach your children respect and honor and this problem will be alot less of a problem


----------



## gketell (Dec 9, 2007)

No offense taken.  


In any argument about any thing people can always come up with a scenario that is impossible.  

Let's take another situation.  The shooter is coming at you and your family shooting people as he comes and you are stuck in a corner of the building with no where to go.  Should you just stand there saying your final prayers?

No one is ever mentally prepared for situations like those.  Not even the trained cops.

It boils down to understanding the situation before acting.  As does everything you do in life.  If you act before you know, you are a fool and probably worse.  Would I do the right thing in the situation you propose?  I hope to never find out.  Would you do the right thing in the situation I propose?  I hope you never have to find out!!

GK


----------

