# WHO........



## ed4copies (Mar 18, 2008)

Are you trying to impress???

I've had this conversation with a couple members on the phone, but why not discuss it here??

We, IAP members,  make pens out of EVERYTHING!!  WHY?  To impress each other?  Or to satisfy a market that exists?  Or are we hoping to CREATE a market for new ideas??

I see craft show customers.  They don't know a lot about pens, as a general rule.  They will buy some things, but do they care about where the threads are? NO, How the threads are made? NO, Can they recognize that this is a KIT pen? Generally, NO.

I see pen show customers (far fewer).  They know more than I do about pens.  I SEE them looking at the nib - not evaluating threading methods.

This is not meant to CRITICIZE anyone, only to establish.

WHY do we make so many changes?
WHO will be impressed? OR CARE??

and, to me, most importantly,

<center>WILL THE FRUITS OF MY LABOR SELL - IN WHAT MARKETPLACE???
Have I IMPROVED on the product???</center>

<center>*Have we considered this question???*</center>


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## Grizz (Mar 18, 2008)

I understand what you are saying.  Generally speaking most people do not have a great understanding of "How" the pen came into being.  They either like it or don't.  Is it pretty/sharp/cool looking, how it feels in their hand and of course how it writes.  All the other stuff is just bells and whistles.

But... I understand guys/gals who do go into more steps and intricate details with some of their pens.  It is a matter of seeing how far an envelope can be pushed.  It is about artistry and being unique at your craft.

I see this in pen making just like I see it in Scroll Saw Art and Design.  We need both.


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## IPD_Mrs (Mar 18, 2008)

To be quite honest Ed, some of us do get tired of plastic!

For me it is more about a challenge.  Can it be done?  Can I do it if it can be done?  Do I like it?  Yes I get a thrill out of selling a pen and getting what I want for it, but I have to please me first and if I cannot do that then fat chance of doing it for a customer.

Mike


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## jcollazo (Mar 18, 2008)

When I was in technology I was constantly being asked if this could be done, could that be done, can you make it faster, can you do it cheaper, yadda yadda yadda. I don't think there's an area in our lives were someone isn't try to push the envelope. It's in our nature. And when you get a bunch of people together, like on IAP, what may seem as a minor comment can explode into new concepts and processes. 

When it comes to pen making, we're not dealing with big budget R & D. Let's see if we can do it and if we can... does it look cool? Is it interesting? Does our spouse whip it out of our hands yelling MINE?

I think we're just a bunch of of inquisitive, creative people that have chosen pen making as an outlet for those traits. Some people spend an inordinate amount of time and money on car restorations, others in culinary pursuits. And still others plotting crimes. It's fun! And if a niche market opens up for, all the better.

Ask any climber why he climbs a mountain.


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## rherrell (Mar 18, 2008)

Why? Because I can, it's that simple,FOR ME. This is not my job so I could care less if somebody buys it. I do it because I love making things, especially things I have never made before.


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## R2 (Mar 18, 2008)

I try to impress myself. In other words I turn for the pleasure of turning and the challenges presented. The "market" is asecondary consideration. If I sell well then so be it. You see,here in Oz the market is totally different to, and much smaller than, the American market. That probably shapes my rhinking quite a bit. I do not concentrate overly on pens. My interests are in all forms of "woodwork".


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## Gary Max (Mar 18, 2008)

Little different answer----look at the things this site and all the members have done to/for pen making and how far it has advanced because of the group effort. Some folks have made several real big changes in the way pens are made.


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## ed4copies (Mar 18, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Gary Max_
> 
> Little different answer----look at the things this site and all the members have done to/for pen making and how far it has advanced because of the group effort. Some folks have made several real big changes in the way pens are made.



Are they BETTER??  or just different???  Is there a market-driven motive?

Just food for thought, I don't have a strong opinion - from time to time I evaluate WHAT I am doing in the basement, lately I also try to add "WHY???"


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## PR_Princess (Mar 18, 2008)

Fully expecting to get myself in trouble here....

Ed, I don't think for the most part we are trying to "impress" anyone - except with the possible exception of the customer. (In which case - "new" and unique almost always sells better.)

In addition, I have to feel that we make changes, experiment, push the envelope, not only for the sake of the craft but most importantly for OURSELVES. To learn, to appreciate, to have a sense of accomplishment in, to imagine - to ask WHAT IF???? By doing this we become not only a better craftsman, but a better human. 

Why did the cave man knock two stones together to make an edge, Edison  find a thousand ways not to make a light bulb? Why did we go to the moon? 

Who knows what you will discover when you try to learn something new??? I certainly don't. I only know what you will discover when you do NOT.


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## wdcav1952 (Mar 18, 2008)

> _Originally posted by ed4copies_
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Because Dawn won't let you come upstairs?????


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## ed4copies (Mar 18, 2008)

BESIDES that, Cav!!


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## Tom McMillan (Mar 18, 2008)

I've really never much cared "who cares" for my work.  It's nice to be recocognized when others notice, but I've always tried to create the best that I can.  When I see new ideas and techniques I want to try to push that just somewhat further and perhaps add a "touch" that I thought of (sometimes I find it interesting that "my idea" had already been thought of and done---but, that doesn't stop me from trying to come up with something else).  I've sold some pens using what I think are my own techniques, but not enough to feel a whole lot really seek my work and that's fine, as long as I'm satisfied with my work and that I've done the best I can.  During most of my lifetime, I haven't really pursued my "creative side", and now that I have and can, I'm gonna keep at it, cuz it's "fun for me"!!!


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## altaciii (Mar 18, 2008)

I agree with the pr princess, I make pens to please myself.  This is an art that was hidden inside of me trapped in a couch patato body with nothing to enhance my inner being but the next episode of star trek reruns.  Learning what can be done with the things I have learned on this site has taken me away from that old "self".  Finding that nitch to sell is secondary to the self satisfaction I get when my next perfect pen is turned, even though that perfect pen is a far cry from some of the work I see everyday here on this site.


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## Chasper (Mar 18, 2008)

It seems that our membership is heavily salted with individuals who have a dominating and uncontrollable need to tinker.  Good wood isn't good enough; gotta stabilize, segment, dye, fill, whatever else.  Good kits aren't good enough; always a need to modify.  Good PR blends aren't good enough; there must be one effect to create.  Good tools aren't good enough; constantly serching for something better or some way to improve on them.

Sure it is a need to impress, and some of it is a need to impress each other...one up each other might be a better choice of phrase.  Wait until you see the pen I'm building from cadavor tatoos, horsehair and toe nail clippings--seven people will yawn and tell me they made one of those years ago.

At the craft shows I can go off on a enthuaistic tanget about the amazing properties of a pen and a blearly eyed customer will stare at me slack jawed.  My wife says to a customers "isn't it beautiful" and she sells two pens.  For the most part the buyers don't want advanced pen talk, they want to know that someone thinks what they are buying will make them look smart, tasteful, unique, etc. all of which is to say THEY want to look impressive to others.  I try to sell the features and she instinctively jumps directly to the benefits.

The end result of all the tinkering is to stand out in quality, creativity, and artistic interpertation.  Attention to exactly those attributes is what delivers the key benefit to the buyers; they want to uniquely express themselves through their posessions; they want to impress.


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## DCBluesman (Mar 18, 2008)

Iâ€™m definitely in the minority of the preceding posts.  I donâ€™t make pens out of everything.  Yes, Iâ€™ve turned a snakeskin penâ€¦and even a cactus skeleton pen.  But, for the most part, I make pretty, wood pens.  There is a market for these pens, albeit a tiny niche.  I do aim for this niche of â€œbuyers of pretty, wood pensâ€.  Sometimes I hit the target.  Sometimes I miss.  Sometimes I blow a pen up.

I have an interest in the obtuse, i.e. thread making and the like, but only so far as it will allow me to improve on designs which I find to be defective.  It is easier for me to be able to experiment with a one-off design if I can do most of the work myself.  Getting a company to create one new nib holder would be a much more expensive proposition than my doing it.  Of course, I am trading off time for money.  Do I get good value in the trade?  I hope so.  Of course, I do enough research that I am fairly certain I am right.

Now, in terms of pushing a design envelope, I donâ€™t even kid myself that I push it.  In fact, with my skills and abilities, Iâ€™m still using postcards, never mind envelopes.  After three years, I am still amazed when one of my wood pens looks pretty.  Thatâ€™s fulfilling for me.  If a customer finds it pretty and is willing to pay for it, thatâ€™s a huge emotional high.  So no, I do not make pens to push the design or technological envelope.  I just make pretty, wood pens and that makes me happy.

Those who have ever talked to me about being an artist know that I do not consider myself to have any artistic talents.  None.  I make pretty, wood pens.  Iâ€™m not making a statement.  My pens donâ€™t have an emotional impact on the viewer.  They donâ€™t even have an emotional impact on me.  I have no â€œbabiesâ€ that I have turned.  They are pens, pure and simple.  They are all for sale, except my first pen and the only reason it is not for sale is because it was proof that I could actually make a penâ€¦something most 9-year olds can do with instruction, guidance and supervision.

So donâ€™t hold your breath waiting for the lasagna pen or the haggis pen to come from me.  Someone in this group will probably accomplish these feats, but it wonâ€™t be me.  I will be smiling and enjoying the pens vicariously while I make and sell my pretty, wood pens.


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## ed4copies (Mar 18, 2008)

Gerry, 

You have told me what I KNOW!!

Customers buy benefits.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
I hold those truths to be self-evident.

What alludes ME (which is not meant to reduce the scope of this thread)  is related to the mechanics.  In the words of my good friend, Unnamed, "People buy the bling" (he's "hip", you know-he calls it "bling").  So, why do we try to ELIMINATE the parts that are working???  Is this an IMPROVEMENT???


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## jcollazo (Mar 18, 2008)

> _Originally posted by ed4copies_
> 
> So, why do we try to ELIMINATE the parts that are working???  Is this an IMPROVEMENT???



We know they work! It's stable. We know what to expect. BUT... is there a better way? It could be an improvement and it could also be two steps backwards. We won't know until we try. As Dawn mentioned, Edison found a thousand ways not to make a light bulb. Of those thousand ideas, was something else birthed?

My father once asked why the US spent so much on the space program? He felt it was a waste and nothing would come of it. So as I sit here, in my flame retardant easy chair, typing on a laptop computer with a wireless connection, listening to my granddaughter bang on our digital piano and watch CNN on our LCD TV with a satellite hookup, I have to think that even out of pen making some spin off will occur in woodworking, art, chemistry, metallurgy, conservation ..... who know?

It is nice to make a pretty wooden pen. I rediscovered that this past weekend. It's much like a walk in a beautiful park. Very refreshing and I need to do it more. But every now and then, since I am no longer physically able to, I yearn to put on the rubber booties,  grab the gear (given to my son) and climb a class 4 vertical rock face.


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## LEAP (Mar 18, 2008)

For me it's learning a new process. I enjoy figuring out how to accomplish something. It may be something thats already been done by dozens of people but thats ok, it's new to me. Will a potential customer care that I spent 40 hours figuring out how to do something? I doubt it, but I know what I put into each pen. Besides I just like playing with tools!


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## leehljp (Mar 18, 2008)

I don't create to sell, I don't create to impress. I don't even post a 10th of what I make. I don't sell most of what I make and I don't intend to sell what I make when I retire either (in 4 years). LOML has been trying to get me to do that, but I like making pens and duck calls as something to relax and get my mind off of work and out of thinking in Japanese all day long. 

To do that, I certainly don't want to follow the mundane and leave total creativity solely to the inside of a piece wood that I can't see. So when I do create something and it "happens to look great or exceptional" I do post it. Not to show off, but because of the prevailing philosophy here that one is a liar if it is not posted. I am not arrogant about my work because I am not good enough to be. I am confident enough in myself that I don't need pats on the back to stroke my ego, so I don't really care to post my work, but I do it because community here loves sharing ideas and pictures. I love the way an idea is mentioned and either directly or through a series of discussions lead someone else to create a master piece. If I get inspired from someone, I feel it is only right for me to share some of the unique things that I do.


This is not intended to be an argument but to note that your premise, as I understand it, suggests a hint of detriment of the adage that "if you don't post a picture, it didn't happen." That adage has caused some big fights on this forum in the past. This post, it seems to say to me - who are we trying to impress with pictures of our creations, modifications and evolutions in design. But If we didn't post it, it didn't happen. Kind of like  - danged if we do and danged if we don't.

And even in the above, I might be misunderstanding your post, - my mind 'ain't' quite right cause it doesn't know whether to think Japanese or American!


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## gcurran (Mar 18, 2008)

I am trained as an engineer - that means that you follow a process and produce a product that just about any other engineer could produce.  So, why make pens?  I need to have an outlet that allows me to follow a process (the steps in making a pen) but also show some of my creative side - let me be what I want to be at that moment in time - and allow me to relax by doing something that is foreign to my daily work.  The fact that my wife (and LOML) is able to sell some of my creations ( including some I would just as soon through out) is a secondary thing ( but most welcome for the few $$ that allow me to continue in my chosen diversion.)  Continue after retirement ( in a year or so)?  absolutely! - I am having more fun than I can remember in a very long while!


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## jtate (Mar 18, 2008)

I guess the question is - why are YOU, the individual penmaker, making pens?  for a market?  for sale?  for pleasure? for art?

I don't make 'em for sale.  I make 'em for pleasure - I like doing this and I like learning everything you have to learn, strike that, GET to learn, in doing this.  Sometimes I do it for art.  I have made a few that I thought rose to the level of art.

As far as art goes - I don't know how real artisits view it - but whenever I make art, I'm doing it for art's sake - not for money.  And I'm the only judge of what is artistic about my work!


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## DocStram (Mar 18, 2008)

"Market driven"?  That may be the first time I've ever used that phrase. 

Get it?


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## wudnhed (Mar 18, 2008)

I love making pens, pure and simple.  I am always hunting for that elusive perfect blank, are there ever enough[}]?  I just finished my website and I figure, if they sell, they sell, if they don't, they don't.


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## GoodTurns (Mar 18, 2008)

I am trying to impress me.  As Lou said, I do not consider myself an artist, I have a lifetime of artistic non-achievement behind me, ahead as well were I to try anything "artistic".  I love seeing something beautiful come from a piece of material and am driven by the desire to take people who see my "pretty pens" from "Oh" to "Oh my!".  I hope to sell enough to pay for my hobby, shoot, I was only about $7,000 short last year!  I enjoy the time in my shop, I enjoy giving pretty pens to my friends and family, and I am thrilled when someone calls to say they showed a pen to a friend and they want to buy.  Bottom line, I make pens to prove to myself that these left-brained, uncoordinated hands can indeed make something beautiful!


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## alamocdc (Mar 18, 2008)

For me it's simple. I'm not trying to impress anyone (I gave up on that years ago), or even broaden my market niche. But I'll admit that I get a kick out of someone ocassionally saying, "You made that from what?", or, "All those tiny pieces of wood must take a lot of work." in reference to one of my segmented pens. For me it's pushing MY envelope of creativity, and seeing if I can work out some hair brained idea based on something I saw here. I have no desire to cast coffee beans or pasta, but they certainly have an interesting look. My desire is to create something truly unique to me. I haven't found it yet, but I will.


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## ashaw (Mar 19, 2008)

I'll chime in on this one as well.  I am a pen nut.  Being a woodworker for many years learned to turn pens.  Full in love with it ever since.  Before I started to make this obssesion into a business I like both the art and process challenge of making a pen.  Now I love making pens for profit.  I quess as I see it right now I may be a not for profit business.  Hopefully that will change in the near future.  
As far as impressing anyone it is my customer who I am trying to impress resulting in sales.  When I stop trying to make the best pen out there then it is time to turn in my lathe.  Right now Plastics (err Fine Resins) have been selling like crazy. 

Alan


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## Texatdurango (Mar 19, 2008)

Ed, Why does this subject bother you so much?  We are not all in this for the money.  Market Driven, bottom line, profit margin, hell I retired from that rat race two years ago and could care less about any of it anymore.  I probably spent more on pen making goodies this past year than I can recoup by selling pens for 10 years so why would I worry if a pen is going to sell after spending three or four hours making it?  

When you finally figure out that everything doesn't revolve around money, you'll start seeing what some of us are doing... just having fun!


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## PenWorks (Mar 19, 2008)

> _Originally posted by ed4copies_
> 
> Are you trying to impress???



Myself  and my legacy 

We are only here on this piece of crap planet for a spec in time. I like to think I am leaving behind some sort of legacy to someone who owns one of my pens. Mabye it by be my children or grandchildren or a customer. Its nice to leave somethng behind to show you were here at a point in time. I built two houses and an office building in town. The first thing I point out to folks when we are perched high on the hill at the golf course, is two of the homes I built. There is a sense of pride and accomplishment. Same as when you pull that perfect pen off the lathe and say, this is the BOMB [:0]  I just don't want to put in my time here and exit without leaving something behind. 

Other than that, I enjoy the pen trade business right now, both having the store and making pens. When the fun stops, so do I and move onto something else to accomplish that I enjoy. 

Hell, if I was any good at golf, I would join the Sr. tour, but I'm not, so pen making will have to do for know.


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## Johnathan (Mar 19, 2008)

> _Originally posted by PenWorks_
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Anthony, when you say leave your legacy behind with customers, are you talking about the Legacy (mill)? Put me in the will! 

You know, I do think things go way overboard sometimes, but, every now and then, something is created that really does look good. I think that most of the "new" materials lower the overall look of the pen, turn something classy into something cheesy or even crappy, but there are always others that I actually like, the cactus pen comes to mind first. Yes, different, yes, unique, and it can look elegant with the right kit and bring out a conversation as to how it was made. It all comes down to why you are making pens, do what makes you happy if that's the goal, do what makes you money if that's your goal. We have many forums here to be able to talk about pen making on many different levels. Go turn your Curly Maple, or cast a cow pie, just make sure you post a pic so that we can either laugh, or learn!


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## Ligget (Mar 19, 2008)

Fortunately or unfortunately whatever way you look at it since breaking my back at work, I now have no mortgage, no debts and have a very healthy bank account.

I dont care about selling pens, however, I seem to always have approx 8 custom orders on my white board in my workshop.


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## Grizz (Mar 19, 2008)

> _Originally posted by ligget_
> 
> Fortunately or unfortunately whatever way you look at it since breaking my back at work, I now have no mortgage, no debts and have a very healthy bank account.
> 
> I dont care about selling pens, however, I seem to always have approx 8 custom orders on my white board in my workshop.



May I ask... why a white board in your shop?  [?]


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## R2 (Mar 19, 2008)

All this philosophy is giving me a headache, none moreso than mine![}][}][]


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## ed4copies (Mar 19, 2008)

To those who perceive me as "money driven", I can only say you don't know me, at all.  

But that was not the point.  I make pens to sell, because I have to sit at craft shows to help Dawn erect and disassemble her booth.  I don't know much about decorating houses and stained glass is used to decorate houses.  SO, I turn pens.  Hundreds of pens.  IF I kept or gave away all my turnings, I would go broke (because money is not that important, so I don't atttempt to make a fortune selling copiers.)

OK&lt; that's said, now my question was meant to help me determine if there is any reason for ME to try to IMPROVE on the "metal and kit-provided plastic" parts or if I should continue to focus on turning Dawn's imaginative new blanks with the standard hardware.  I have not yet seen a convincing argument showing a need for new "connection devices".

As a side benefit, this thread HAS made me realize I really DO enjoy turning my version of a "pretty pen" and I seem to have a lot of company in that sentiment.  Just a difference in what material we may prefer.

This is not meant to END the conversation, just to clarify that I had no real GOAL!  The thread was not predestined to prove a point.  Just provide some feedback from others that may help me refocus on why I turn and WHO I am trying to impress.  Nothing has changed my original perception that we try to impress OURSELVES and our prospective USERS (to me, CUSTOMERS - to some of you, your FRIENDS and FAMILY).  Same church, different pews.

Thanks to all for helping me get ready for the 2008 Show season!!!


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## MichaelS (Mar 19, 2008)

First I donâ€™t keep them long enough to take a photo. They go from the pen press to the box to the PO. I am doing this for myself and for the challenge if I happen to make some $$$ from it thatâ€™s fine but not essential. As far as being a lire if you donâ€™t post a pic of your work. Then I feel sorry for the sorry people that feel that way. Innovate. Change, learn something new, do something different, work with and keep your mind busy. Artistic maybe, fun definitely, a challenge always a must, WHATâ€™S THE POINT?  IF YOU HALF TO ASK THEN SELL YOUR LATHE AND TAKE UP TV WATCHING AND TURN YOUR MIND TO MUSH! 
A lot of the innovations in our world come from people like us. They donâ€™t have to be record breaking or news worthy just something different that someone else can learn from and expand on taking what you see here to the next level in your experience.
I live out in the middle of nowhere but work in Baltimore City. The worst part of the city at that, in the ghetto and the projects. If you have seen The  Wire  thatâ€™s where I work. I could tell you stories that would make some of you cringe. Getting shot at, threatened, robbed but still trying to make life better for some. Every day I see people standing on the street corners selling whatever but doing nothing to contribute and going nowhere. If one of us does something unusual you may not realize or see how it contributes now but is does in many small ways. And if it doesnâ€™t at least you tried and enjoyed the process. Now Iâ€™ll get off my soup box and get back to work.


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## Texatdurango (Mar 19, 2008)

Ed maybe I took most of your comments wrong but it just seemed like every time someone would start a thread discussing making their own custom pens and breaking away from assembling kits all day, you would hop in and ask why change anything, whatâ€™s the point or youâ€™ll never sell them for the time you have invested, etc?

Haven't you ever wondered how nice it would be to go to your shop and doodle out a design then grab a blank and make your own pen, then add some silver, gold, copper, brass or other metal embellishments where YOU want them to be rather than just dumping out a bag of parts and putting them together?

Iâ€™ve got to tell you, when I started turning pens last year I was so excited and couldnâ€™t wait to get out to the shop and turn a few pens.  That excitement soon faded, to the point I switched my interests to doing segmented blanks then closed end designs then modifying the nib holders, etc.  

Doing all that customizing and experimenting has brought me to where I am today.  I started making my own upper and lower barrels without the constraints of using brass tubes or mating metal parts.  Now, when I go to my shop and piddle around with a design, trying to figure out a neat clip design or center band size I get so much more enjoyment and satisfaction than I ever did just turning kits, even those snazzy looking Statesman Flag pens which sold for a lot more than my custom pens ever will.  But all in all, I am having more fun than is allowed in 23 states!

So, take a month away from the â€œroutineâ€ of replenishing your stock, make a few totally custom pens, display them prominently on your display table (or in your special â€œhigh endâ€ tray) knowing that you are the only person in the world with such a pen and sell it for whatever puts a grin on your face!  And when you sell one, tell me how the feeling of that grin compares to selling just a few more kit pens. 

Gotta go now, I've rambled on enough plus Iâ€™m playing silversmith today!


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## Mudder (Mar 19, 2008)

> _Originally posted by ed4copies_
> 
> Are you trying to impress???
> 
> ...




Gee Whiz Mr.Brown,

Using your logic we should have stopped designing cars after the Pacer came out 







Or maybe the Gremlin:







Perhaps we should have stopped when the first PC came out?

Or the first Cellular phone?


After all, it works so I guess there is no room for improvement?

Now that the mandatory wise acre comment is out of the way I'll have to admit that in my market the buyers tend to go for the plain old kit pens made from plastic or wood. I have not been able to sell many segmented or closed end pens so there is really no incentive to make them.

So I guess that you and I will be the last two "Dinosaurs" on the board before too long.


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## Chasper (Mar 19, 2008)

I think we come to this place, this discussion, and this penturning avocation from various backgrounds.  Iâ€™m an executive with soft hands, lingering regrets at not having attempted to follow up on youthful dreams of becoming an artist, and a fascination for tools.  In reading between the lines I gather that our membership includes a number of legitimate artists, talented product designers, a handful of machinists, some engineers, a fair number of building contractors and fine woodworkers, an abnormal number of computer tech folks, many others who have a background like gunsmithing, jewelry, dentistry and other precision fields.  There also seems to be more than a few other misfits like me; teachers, lawyers, managers, salesmen and thinkers who probably all have a need to actually make something after a career of mostly pulling strings to make something happen.

Given my background, Iâ€™m not satisfied with just making something pretty, I need to sell it too.  Financial statements are how we keep score in my working world.  If I canâ€™t generate cash and ultimately make some profit, Iâ€™m not succeeding in work or penmaking.  Given their varied backgrounds, I believe there are others of us who need to make improvements to the kit components to find fulfillment in this game, some need to create pens that go beyond what can be done with kits, some need to find the ultimate tools and then improve them.  Others need to constantly improve their artistry, the functionality of their online site, their photography, the micro-precision of their work, and on and on and on.

Is tinkering with the kit components absolutely necessary?  Not for me it isnâ€™t.  But it does seem to provide significant satisfaction for some penturners.


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## ed4copies (Mar 19, 2008)

I am enjoying the philosophical discussion and want to, once again, assert that I am NOT trying to CHANGE YOUR behavior.  Merely cast a little light on MY future behavior.

Since Mudder sent me a PM, HE must be addressed (Or he will tell me for weeks that he "got" me!)

Scott, each of your examples has room for improvement, BUT, since I have a LOT of personal experience with the Gremlin, let's concentrate on IT.  Talk about pickup, it had a small 6 banger, gave GREAT mileage, touch the accelerator and leave rubber, if you wish, making tire wear the first area of potential improvement.  With that GREAT advantage, came the ability to sit at a stop light, first in line,  for three or four red/green cycles.  This occured whenever there was snow.  Those tires would turn like heck!!!  The car, however, remained stationary until the person behind you tapped your rear end a few times.  PERFECT car design - no - PLENTY of room to improve.

PC's seem to have improved, though I don't know WHO could EVER need more than 20 megabytes?????  And it was fun watching CorelDraw redraw with every change made - now it just "appears" when edited.

So, again I point out these were IMPROVEMENTS.  WHAT parts of the kit do you believe NEED improving (after you've added a new gold nib - a need that has been filled, yes, but merely by MANUFACTURING a different PIECE, not hand-making anything.

To those (George) who say they strive to change the kits because they WANT to --- GREAT!!!!!  YOU HAVE THAT right!!!!!  and YES, to justify my time I want to know WHERE I am heading if I participate.  So, I CAN CHOOSE not to participate, YOU won't MISS me and I KNOW that!!!  Have fun, so will I, I thought I might be missing some purpose, seems I am not. (so far)


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## Texatdurango (Mar 19, 2008)

> _Originally posted by ed4copies_
> 
> ... I thought I might be missing some purpose, seems I am not. (so far)


Sometimes there just doesn't have to be a purpose or a reason.[]


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## ed4copies (Mar 19, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Texatdurango_
> 
> 
> 
> ...



George, for YOU, the reason appears to be, cause you WANT to!!!

THAT's FINE!!!  HAVE FUN!!!!  Just doesn't constitute a reason for ME! 

Would you believe I have friends who don't do EXACTLY as I DO?????  Variety, someone said, is the spice of life.  I just want to make sure I'm not missing a GOOD REASON!!![?][?][?]


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## Hello (Mar 19, 2008)

> _Originally posted by rherrell_
> 
> Why? Because I can, it's that simple,FOR ME. This is not my job so I could care less if somebody buys it. I do it because I love making things, especially things I have never made before.



That deserves an Amen.
I make them becuase it makes me proud to have the ability and patience to do it. I equate woodcraft (sub categor penturning) with being a musician....I've chosen both nobbies because they can not be mastered, there will always be something more to learn, something more to practice - there will always be a challenge - there will always be the opportunity make myself proud.


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## Armacielli (Mar 19, 2008)

I settled on wood workng as my hobby for probably the wrong reasons. In High School, I was never the guy who was known for being good at everything. So when I found My shop classes and I took to it rather naturally, I found something that I was better at than anyone else I knew. Then people made a big deal over me making even even very simple things. That's an ego boost. I like to specialize in turning because it's even more impressive looking and therefore a bigger ego boost(people seem to think I can walk on water based on what I turn). I turn pens because I can carry a pen anywhere and get that big ego boost wherever I go without looking like I'm going out of my way to show off. (even though seeing what i've seen here I'm, personally, not too impressed with what I make)

In conclusion I do it to carress my ego by impressing people I know


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## Blind_Squirrel (Mar 19, 2008)

> _Originally posted by ed4copies_
> Are you trying to impress???



First and foremost...me.  Then my peers...you all.  

I make pens for my own pleasure.


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## pipeyeti (Mar 19, 2008)

> _Originally posted by ed4copies_
> 
> Are you trying to impress???
> 
> ...


 Me plain and simple.  I can put kits together and sell the crud out of them. I do it all the time. I do not however get the same satisfaction from it as I do when I create some thing myself without a kit. I have made pipes from kits ( a predrilled block with premolded stem fitted to it), and from scratch doing all the drilling and hand cutting the stem from vulcanite rod. The feeling don't even compare when you sell one that you have created yourself. I will still sell kit pens (lots of them)but once in a while its fun to do it all yourself.


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## Mudder (Mar 19, 2008)

> _Originally posted by ed4copies_
> 
> 
> So, again I point out these were IMPROVEMENTS.  WHAT parts of the kit do you believe NEED improving (after you've added a new gold nib - a need that has been filled, yes, but merely by MANUFACTURING a different PIECE, not hand-making anything.



Ohhhh Mr. Brown,

This has to be either a severe case of selective amnesia or just one of those "open mouth-insert foot" moments.

Did you not, just a little over a week ago, go into great depths with me over how the "perfect fit" kit could be improved? Do I need to search for the thread and point it out to you my friend?

I do believe I gotcha, but you will never concede so the beat goes on, the beat goes on.


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## ed4copies (Mar 19, 2008)

Mudder,

We did, as usual, have a very good conversation about coping with the shortcomings of the imperfect fit.  But, we did not propose FIXING the transmission, cause we know we are not capable of making a better one, without manufacturing facilities.  We evaluated, instead, cosmetic adjustments (within our scope) to compensate for the manufactured miscalculations.  I believe this conversation would run on a parallel track to this thread.  We COULD improve the imperfect fit.


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## Mudder (Mar 19, 2008)

> _Originally posted by ed4copies_
> 
> Mudder,
> 
> We did, as usual, have a very good conversation about coping with the shortcomings of the imperfect fit.  But, we did not propose FIXING the transmission, cause we know we are not capable of making a better one, without manufacturing facilities.  We evaluated, instead, cosmetic adjustments (within our scope) to compensate for the manufactured miscalculations.  I believe this conversation would run on a parallel track to this thread.  We COULD improve the imperfect fit.



If you follow my suggestions would it NOT improve the kit?


I WIN!!





> _Originally posted by Mudder_
> 
> I do believe I gotcha, but you will never concede so the beat goes on, the beat goes on.



La-de-da-de-da, la-de-da-de-da []


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## ed4copies (Mar 19, 2008)

Let me confirm that Mudder DID say SOMETHING of value!!![:0][:0][:0][:0]

(Mark the date, probably won't happen again!!)


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## Mudder (Mar 19, 2008)

> _Originally posted by ed4copies_
> 
> Let me confirm that Mudder DID say SOMETHING of value!!![:0][:0][:0][:0]
> 
> (Mark the date, probably won't happen again!!)



Hey!

When you figure out what it was please let me know [8D]


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## Chuck Key (Mar 19, 2008)

> _Originally posted by ed4copies_
> Just doesn't constitute a reason for ME!
> 
> I just want to make sure I'm not missing a GOOD REASON!!![?][?][?]



The reason is quite simple the way I see it.  All these idiots going off on this tangent are using plastics.  Wood blanks are a thing of the past.  They are going to need tons and tons of plastic.  If I were a provider of plastic materials I would not be rocking the boat so to speak.

Chuckie

Edit in:  [] in cheek!!


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## ed4copies (Mar 20, 2008)

Chuckie,

I didn't need the edit, I knew!!

(Just my nature to stand up, boat or not!!)


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## Mudder (Mar 20, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Mudder_
> 
> 
> I do believe I gotcha, but you will never concede so the beat goes on, the beat goes on.
> ...



I'm severely disappointed that Lou or some other musically inclined individual did not pick this inference up. 


You guys are slipping in your OLD  age.


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## DCBluesman (Mar 20, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Mudder_
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If you want me to pick up on the musical inference, you need to get the quote right.  It's  





> La de da de de,
> la de da de da


 (RIP Salvatore "Sonny" Bono)


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## Dario (Mar 20, 2008)

> _Originally posted by PenWorks_
> 
> 
> Myself  and my legacy



Reminds me of my father .  He is a Civil Engineer and told me that long after he is gone...people will continue using the buildings,roads, and bridges he help build.  Very true.  Thanks Anthony.

Who am I trying to impress?

While I don't really try to impress anyone...there is satisfaction in being able to create a nice pen.  I am not very creative and I don't do beaded pens.  Not because I can't just because I don't care for them (personal choice).

I believe that my effort is the same using a plain wood and rare, exotic wood anyway so I go for what I think will help me attain better looking pens (even if it costs a bit more).

Unlike some, I cannot afford this hobby without selling some.  Not much but every sale helps me keep at it.  If impressing prospective buyer means attracting them enough to look and fork out the money to buy my pens, then I am out to impress the buyers.

I do turn mostly for self satisfaction.  I use exotics for me because I believe they are beautiful.  Much as I want to cater to buyers...I really do not turn for them.  I make pens that appeal to me and target clients who share my taste.

Do I try to impress my fellow IAP members?  Sure I did, I won't hide that but that peaked after a while and I hardly now.  Besides, there are much talent here that mine is hardly worth sharing now.  Am I intimidated?  Not at all, I just feel that I will post pics if it has something else to share now (not just for show).

Case in fact, I made a few "simple" pens that took me days to complete.  Reached a point of almost giving up and throwing it but I persevered.  If my intent is just to sell, the pen would long be gone after a few hours.

I short...I do it for myself, my buyer and my IAP friends.

What can I say...I am blabber mouth and a show off!!! [}]


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## maxwell_smart007 (Mar 20, 2008)

Wow - there a lots of very deep, epistomological responses to this question already!  

My response is:  I make pens to impress myself.  Each new thing I learn is one more pat on my own back...

Just as Mallory said, we climb mountains (metaphorically) because they are there!  If there are no more mountains, then we create our own, by modifying the mountains that are there...climbing up with no ropes, so to speak...

But then again, I make pens for enjoyment, so I'm not all that concerned with customers...and I'm also on the bunny slope, as far as the metaphor goes!


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## Scott (Mar 20, 2008)

Interesting discussion!

For me, I am trying to impress myself!  The work I do for my livelihood seems to have no beginning and no end.  So it is ultimately satisfying for me to do something with my hands, with enough skill that I can look at the finished pen and say "Cool!  I made that!"

I really don't sell pens, but if I want to, I can.  They usually just get given away.  I love to try all different kinds of materials, but I rarely make two, or even (God forbid!) five pens the same.

I never thought of you as money driven!  Interesting concept!  Just because you accept money for a thing, why does that have to be your primary motivation?  Nope, most penturners, I feel, are driven by the creative process, and only sell our stuff so we can afford to make more!

I am kind of bothered by a side aspect of all this, though.  Let me explain.  I also enjoy writing about penturning.  And I have found in my mind that my motivation for doing this is completely different from why I make pens!  It is also a creative process, but for some reason I do want to impress those who read my articles.  I'm not altogether sure why yet, I just know how I feel.  Strange.  And I do like to sell my articles for publication - it's kind of a validation for me.  I kind of like the notoriety of writing articles, but could really care less about notoriety for making pens.  Hmmmmm!(in my best Freudian imitation!)  [:I]

Thanks for the thought-provoking discussion!

Scott.


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## Mudder (Mar 20, 2008)

> _Originally posted by DCBluesman_
> 
> [



If you want me to pick up on the musical inference, you need to get the quote right.  It's  





> La de da de de,
> la de da de da


 (RIP Salvatore "Sonny" Bono)
[/quote]

One word wrong out of 18 is STILL better than 90% 

Don't try to blame me for your slipping memory, It won't work.


Here's another for you Lou.

Well, listen everybody,
to what I got to say.
There's hope for tomorrow,
Ooh,we're workin'on today.


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