# Is it okay to kill an animal to make a pen



## penman (Jul 16, 2018)

I ask the following question as there are more and more animal parts and animals being cast into pen blanks. 
There are now snake skin, alligator jaws, star fish, butterflies, sea horses and I am sure other animals that are being killed just so we can make a pen.
My question for discussion is... Is this right or should we as stewards of the environment boycott these products and the supplies of them?


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## mark james (Jul 16, 2018)

penman said:


> I ask the following question as there are more and more animal parts and animals being cast into pen blanks.
> There are now snake skin, alligator jaws, star fish, butterflies, sea horses and I am sure other animals that are being killed *just* so we can make a pen.
> My question for discussion is... Is this right or should we as stewards of the environment boycott these products and the supplies of them?




I understand your point, but believe an important variable (there are several) is "JUST."  If that is the case - i.e., the animal would truly stay alive were it not for the purpose of making a pen, then I would not support it.

But, in the cases were the animal is already dead - i.e., a road kill snake.  I see no problem.

There is also another occurrance.  Indegenous vs invasive species.  Currently the Cayman islands (and much of the caribbean, South American Atlantic seaboard) are being overrun with Lionfish in their reefs, which is a non-native species to this area and they are changing the eco-system by eating vast amounts of juvenile fish.  Efforts to hunt the lionfish and use the meat in restaurants is having a small, but positive effect.  Yes, eventually nature will produce a predator for the lionfish, but until then the impact is vast.

And, the Cayman Islands are now being overrun by Green Iguanas, another non native species.  They have a real problem, and are likewise trying to cull the iguana population.  

In both cases, culling the lionfish and Green Iguana will go on irrespective of how the meat, skin, body parts are used (restaurant fare, jewelry, leather products, fertilizer, landfill...), so it could be argued that at least some measure of usefulness is considered.

I guess, my position would be if there is NO OTHER REASON the animal is killed but simply to make a pen out of it, then I would not support it.  In the other cases, I would.

Interesting question.  

Note:  I'm a SCUBA diver, and have witnessed the impact of the Lionfish.  In many areas where we saw them in abundance at 60-90' in depth several years ago, they are now rare.  But apparently at 140-200' feet they are abundant.  Why this shift?  Either they are adapting to being culled, or they have depleted the juvenile populations closer to the surface??  I don't know the answer.


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## Rounder (Jul 16, 2018)

I am in agreement with Mark on this. Killing a living thing just to make a pen is wrong. There are too many other items to make pens out of to do this. But if the animal is already dead or invasive and not a natural species to the area, different story. JMHO.


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## Kenny Durrant (Jul 16, 2018)

I believe that we are to be good stewards of the environment. We should manage all wildlife which means protecting and managing. Gators are raised for all sorts of things. There is very little that goes to waste. This is a touchy subject with all the different views around the world and I don't want to offend anyone or get into an argument. If the animal can be legally and humanely taken I don't have an issue with it. I think all  animals have the same rights and I don't kill because I'm scared or just don't like the animal. If it's doing what it should be doing and where it should be doing it I'll let it be. If you take this issue to the bottom line trees are being endangered in places as well. That leaves only acrylics. What are the factories that make these products doing to the environment? Does that mean we should stop turning? I think as long as we watch the total picture we can continue what we do and not destroy the Earth. Like I said this is my opinion and it's not meant to start trouble with those that think differently.


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## penman (Jul 16, 2018)

All good comments. I was moved to post this after I saw a major supplier selling acrylic blanks with butterflies, sea horses and star fish on them.
I could not understand why anyone would want to use these blanks.


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## Woodchipper (Jul 16, 2018)

Interesting thread. Are those killed or already dead? That is the point that needs to be clarified. Alligators are hunted in several southern states for the meat and the hides. It is a legitimate, controlled, and highly monitored harvest. In Louisiana, you have to show your permit in order to catch and sell the alligator parts as previously noted. Seahorses could come from aquariums where there is a natural cycle of life. Butterflies would be the same- in the wild or captivity. You are always going to have the cycle of life and death. Think of it when you go by a cemetery. Got your spot picked out?


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## Jason_Burr (Jul 16, 2018)

It appears that some of you may be talking about my blanks since butterflies, starfish and seahorses were mentioned. I have also made blanks with geckos and tree frog once. 

I want to be VERY clear here as I share the same concerns as you. I have NEVER killed an animal to make a blank. I also do not buy from people who kill animals or harvest them from nature. 

My gecko blanks were small geckos found dead in my home (they are invasive  yes but I don't mind them and they eat the bugs I help them if I find them in the house). I live in south Florida and they abound. Same with the tree frog.

As to the starfish and seahorses I get them from a local source who buys them from breeders who have lost stock. In other words these are animals which were bred and raised for aquariums but did not make it. The breeders save them and sell them to my supplier. 

As to the butterflies I source them from a few places. First and where I got started was friends who raise them and release them into the wild. Same friends also plant milkweed and other plants to help particularly the monarchs. The butterflies I get from them are the ones that birds got and they found gardening (birds eat the thorax and leave the wing). My other supplier works directly with sanctuaries and aviaries whose goal it is to preserve species the money they get from the collected butterflies who lived out a full life helps to keep that going. 

So.... please before jumping to conclusions about where these are sourced maybe instead ask as the fact is at least with my blanks my efforts help to assist with conservation and I too would never kill an animal for a blank.


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## robutacion (Jul 16, 2018)

This is one on those subjects that will always create an havoc of opinions and misconceptions, I say misconceptions because assumptions are made not based on facts or knowledge of the issue(s) presented and the reasons behind it. 

My opinion is not important here but I'm one of those that don't accept that a mosquito shouldn't be killed/squashed because of being a creature and therefore deserves to live, even though it may have sucked your blood and give you a skin irritation that will drive you nuts...!

There is one other issue that I have always been a full supporter and strong advocate of and that is the *utilization of natural resources* instead of waste and if you think clearly, there are "products" used today that not so long ago were simply wasted or not looked at.

Is this a perfect world..? no, it is not nor it will ever be while humans exist...!

It may be a strong statement but a true one.

Cheers
George


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## Rifleman1776 (Jul 16, 2018)

penman said:


> I ask the following question as there are more and more animal parts and animals being cast into pen blanks.
> There are now snake skin, alligator jaws, star fish, butterflies, sea horses and I am sure other animals that are being killed just so we can make a pen.
> My question for discussion is... Is this right or should we as stewards of the environment boycott these products and the supplies of them?



The harvesting of animals to satisfy human wants and needs has been going on since the beginning of time. As long as the harvesting does not negatively impact the population of desirable animals I see no wrong in it. For example, the taking of rattle snakes helps the remaining population because there is then less pressure on their food supply. And, in many cases, reducing that population may help protect humans. Taking of other animals is usually regulated to protect the species. For instance, we have many deer on my property daily. But, i wouldn't kill one just to get the hide for a jacket. However, during the lawful season, I will take one and use not only the hide but the meat. For animal rights people the response would be "yes". For others, myself included, the answer would be "no" but harvest in a responsible manner.


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## Mikeyt (Jul 16, 2018)

I think butterfly blanks or star fish blanks or seahorse blanks are cool and different want to know where to get them. 


Sent from my iPhone using Penturners.org mobile app


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## leehljp (Jul 16, 2018)

What is being seen is a wise use of natural resources. Back in the day - years ago, so many resources - animals, trees, plants and inorganic resources had by-products that were just thrown into the dump. Now, even corn stalks are used for fuel, sawdust used, cotton seed hulls used, animal bones and blood used to the point that 50 years ago it was given away on request, where as today, there is almost no such thing as free by-products or free waste. 

As much as some folks want to frighten us about our mis-use of resources, due to capitalism, we are the most "proper and wise use of resources" the planet has ever seen. I'm not talking about "killing for the profit", but wise use of the resources available. There is money in the use of "left overs".

As a kid, I saw and played in mounds of sawdust as high as a building; I watched the bark and edges of trees rot on the ground; Now, I can't get free mulch anywhere. Other things too. Did you know that most of the chicken nuggets in Wendy's and McDonald's are from chicken by-products and much of that is the  juice/blood that has been refined. 

We are better at conservation and wise use that we get credit for.


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## Jason_Burr (Jul 16, 2018)

Mikey, I am the one that makes the real butterfly, seahorse, starfish and flower blanks. Currently I either sale those directly to customers (typically via FB) or Arizona Silohuotte has started carrying some of my blanks as well. Arizona Silhouette: Jason Burr . I also make some blanks with airbrushed tubes and stickers as well as some purely airbrushed tubes. In addition to that Classic Nib has carried my artist signature blanks for a couple of years. Those are the art work of Don Maitz (created capt morgan), his wife Janny Wurts (well know fantasy and sci-fi author and illustrator), and Anthony Burks a local fine artist. Those ones I use prints of their work and have them hand sign each blank.


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## jttheclockman (Jul 16, 2018)

Is it right to kill other human beings??  They are not being used for pens but goes to the crux of the question.


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## Terredax (Jul 16, 2018)

Is it okay to slap your mother to get a cookie?


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## mark james (Jul 16, 2018)

Jason_Burr said:


> the fact is at least with my blanks my efforts help to assist with conservation and I too would never kill an animal for a blank.



I have seen your blanks and some finished pens at the last MPG - speaking as as a SCUBA diver - they were beautiful and I admired them.  JMO.  (I also heard they are a b..ch to turn; as are many other materials that are beautiful).  Hmnnn... a challenge.


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## PenPal (Jul 16, 2018)

Good luck on your diet excluding all animals and fishes from being killed for food.

Peter.


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## Jason_Burr (Jul 16, 2018)

mark james said:


> I have seen your blanks and some finished pens at the last MPG - speaking as as a SCUBA diver - they were beautiful and I admired them.  JMO.  (I also heard they are a b..ch to turn; as are many other materials that are beautiful).  Hmnnn... a challenge.



Thanks Mark. Some of them are more of a challenge than others. The starfish and seahorses can be given you want to avoid cutting into them. Using a vista kit (most of mine are sierra tubed) and watching while you are turning help a lot. Also accounting for sanding. I just did a FP that I got the starfish on the cap perfect when turning but was too perfect and when sanding right at the very end with MM broke through the surface just barely. 

The butterflies can if forced too much slip in between the resin and tube even though they are top coated well before casting. Just the nature of them and how delicate they are but that is rare.


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## Gregory Hardy (Jul 16, 2018)

Rifleman1776 said:


> penman said:
> 
> 
> > I ask the following question as there are more and more animal parts and animals being cast into pen blanks.
> ...



I agree.  For a lot of years when we were first married, venison was the only red meat we had for part of the year.  (Money was REALLY tight.)  The meat went into the freezer.  The hides were used, and every scrap of antler became something.  Most of us wouldn't harvest a whitetail deer solely for the antlers...not sharing this same philosophy is what made ivory a problem.  "Responsible" is the key, as the harvester or as the consumer of the by-product.  In the end, each of us must be driven by his or her conscience.  Good luck sorting this out in your own mind!


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## sjmilone (Jul 16, 2018)

*Just So? How do we know?*



penman said:


> I ask the following question as there are more and more animal parts and animals being cast into pen blanks.
> *There are now snake skin, alligator jaws, star fish, butterflies, sea horses and I am sure other animals that are being killed just so we can make a pen.*
> My question for discussion is... Is this right or should we as stewards of the environment boycott these products and the supplies of them?



Emphasis added above

JUST SO we can make a pen?  If you KNOW FIRST HAND of anyone doing this, you have a responsibility first to NOT BUY from them. Not dictate to others. Make them aware in intelligent conversation, but accusations made in a blanket fashion, worded to implicate a particular person without proof, is not the way to go. I do hope your intention wasn't along that line, but it reads that way to me.

And now I ask, as others have touched on, how do we KNOW that because it is dead means the ARTIST killed it, or that it WAS killed at all? Did the 3 year old holding the dead frog kill it, or find it already expired?  We can all have a guess, but nobody alive but the kid knows this truth.

It would be ridiculously callous business practice, leaving environmental issues aside for just a moment, to source components of your product illegally, or in a way that would severely limit your marketplace. This meaning folks like many of us who care about proper treatment of our cohabitants on this rock, would drop out of their customer pool..  Businesspeople generally don't like to alienate their market.  Yes some may do so, but some of the species you list, indicate a singular person, who is widely known to support the environment rather than rape it, as is inferred above in that one blanket statement.

For that matter, what of the wood that was not protected when harvested or purchased, but now is? Now that it's listed, is it irresponsible to try and at least recover your investment?

I have always told my kids, if you have not researched the facts fully, you have no right speaking on the subject as an authority. Qualify the areas you have not verified.

Those who are concerned, as I am, have the responsibility to research and find reputable sources, not move to boycott an entire specialty within our craft. For one, I am entirely confident in my sources and will continue, having no issues of conscience, because I myself have been responsible in verifying the credibility of my sources. We who source our components responsibly should be wearing that as a badge, an additional assurance to our buyers.


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## Sylvanite (Jul 16, 2018)

PenPal said:


> Good luck on your diet excluding all animals and fishes from being killed for food.


I did not claw my way to the top of the food chain in order to eat vegetables. :biggrin:


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## Dehn0045 (Jul 16, 2018)

I think too often this issue is argued as being a choice between killing things and not killing things, the truth is that there is a line and we should argue about where to draw the line.  I don't think anyone here is going to argue that a person shouldn't kill bacteria that is causing a life-threatening infection.  The bacteria are just living, doing what they are supposed to, you should let them live, NO!  So, where is the line?  Interestingly, we also make the "method" of ending a creatures life an important component of this line.  For example, most people are OK using rat poison to kill nuissance rats, which causes the rats to die slowly of internal bleeding.  Likewise, most people accept the fact that millions of dogs are "put to sleep" due to oveepopulation, but I'm sure people would be as accepting if dogs were killed with rat poison.  This line is starting to get really confusing...  If that isn't enough, we make "why" a part of this equation too.  For example, people seem to be OK with environmental exploitation if the value is retained locally.  But if the purpose is to make money for foreign investors people tend to be far less accepting.  For me, the "why" is something that I give a lot of weight.  I enjoy buying wood that is harvested by an individual versus the industrial sources.  I think that a pen is a good way to share nature's beauty.  And a high quality pen, one that is saved, used, and repaired might help others to appreciate and respect nature.  Just my two cents.


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## Cwalker935 (Jul 17, 2018)

Who knows? I would not kill an animal solely for the purpose of making a pen.  However, I do use antlers, snakeskins, etc. in my pen making.  If the animal has been killed for some other reason, why not use something from that animal that would otherwise go to waste.  Do we know whether some of the exotic woods we use were harvested responsibly? Do we know whether the metals that go into our pens were mined in a responsible manner? What are the conditions of the factories where our pen parts are made?  As humans we consume natural resources in practically every thing we do as do other living things, we do consume resources on a proportionately greater scale since we create and build rather then simply exist.  Is that wrong?  Should we not do anything beyond the bare minimum needed to stay alive?  The ethical lines get blurred pretty quickly for me.  All that having been said, I try to be ethical in the way I live my life.  I think that we need be stewards of our surroundings and act accordingly.


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## Woodchipper (Jul 18, 2018)

Ever take an antibiotic and get diarrhea? That is killing the good bacteria in your digestive tract as well as the bad bacteria. BTW, the way to counteract this is to take acidophilus tablets. Speaking from experience.


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## Rifleman1776 (Jul 18, 2018)

" Did you know that most of the chicken nuggets in Wendy's and McDonald's are from chicken by-products and much of that is the juice/blood that has been refined. "

That has to be pure urban legend. Where did you get that bit of misinformation? But, I understand. There are people who just cannot help themselves but like to bash large businesses like McDonald's, Walmart, etc.  The mindset is 'if they are big, they are bad'.


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## Dehn0045 (Jul 18, 2018)

Rifleman1776 said:


> There are people who just cannot help themselves but like to bash large businesses like McDonald's, Walmart, etc.  The mindset is 'if they are big, they are bad'.



I think that Hank was trying to use it as an example of how efficiently we are able to use resources in the modern world, more of a compliment than a bash.  I do suspect that the information provided was a bit misleading (it appears that chicken nuggets are mostly white meat since 2003, before then there was more questionable stuff in them). But I think that we can all agree that the nuggets are probably not constructed from the finest cuts of meat.  The point being that we now make things that are worthwhile (debatable in the case of McNugget IMHO) out of stuff that was thrown away in the past.  I think the case of the American Buffalo is a good example of the wastefulness of the past.  That said, I do think we have a lot farther still to go.  Energy and water wastefulness are huge.  We may be better in some areas, but I think we are getting worse in others.


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## steamshovel (Jul 20, 2018)

oops


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## ZanderPommo (Jul 23, 2018)

Rifleman1776 said:


> penman said:
> 
> 
> > I ask the following question as there are more and more animal parts and animals being cast into pen blanks.
> ...





I agree. I’m an avid hunter myself but I don’t kill things for decorations, I kill for sustenance and because I love disappearing into the woods for several days out of the year. I think harvesting animals for their antlers/horns for example is wrong, and is already illegal in many/most places.

Personally, if it was an elephant and it was taken responsibly and used for its meat, I find it a waste NOT to use every bit you can for any purpose. Many think killing elephants is wrong and they’re going extinct, but it is still legal because in MANY places in Africa there is a dangerously high concentration of them, and conservation is necessary, as opposed to preservation. Preservation is sometimes necessary as well. Same goes for Lions Rhinos etc. (I’ve made pens out of Giraffe bone, already deceased, I see nothing wrong with it.

With the lifespan of butterflies, and the amount of hoops you’d need to go through to acquire and then kill a seahorse for example, it’s no surprise there are an abundance of already deceased carcasses. Why not make it into something beautiful?

Just my $.02


Sent from my iPhone using Penturners.org mobile app


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## edicehouse (Jul 25, 2018)

This really sounds like the question, "Who would pay over $20 for a pen?"

I don't think an alligator is killed just for the jaw bone.  Well I take that back, I am sure there are some poachers out there that do.

I think a lot of this sounds like, I don't agree with how that is done, so you are wrong....


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## edicehouse (Jul 25, 2018)

BTW, I see a snake in my yard, shop, etc.  I am not worried about tanning the hide, getting the meat.  Both parts of the snake are quickly to the field....


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## BKelley (Jul 25, 2018)

Boy, what a subject, I don’t think there is any one answer.  I personally will kill a copperhead snake on my property and have no regrets.  Pen making would be secondary to my killing that copperhead.  I wouldn’t kill a black snake, but if my  neighbor kills it, then I might use it for a pen.

Ben


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## JPW062 (Nov 18, 2018)

Is it a tasty animal?


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