# When is a kit less pen.....kit less?



## beck3906 (Dec 18, 2013)

I was just reading a post and saw a suggestion made of buying an inexpensive kit pen for the fountain pen components such as the feed and clip.  If you buy a kit for pieces, is the pen then really kitless?  

Many of the original builders of kitless lens wanted to get away from buying kits at all. 

Hmmmmm.....    One of those theoretical questions.


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## edstreet (Dec 18, 2013)

it's simple math to be honest.

nib assembly $20
convertor $1.80
clip $2.00
Total: $23.80

- OR -
1x Atrax fountain pen kit for the same 3 parts listed above and toss the rest. $9.75


However if you want to spend double the cost on parts then by all means go for it.  If you want to call it 'kitless' then you should not cheap out and buying a premade nib, feed assembly and housing but rather make them yourself as they are kit components.


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## Dan Masshardt (Dec 18, 2013)

edstreet said:


> it's simple math to be honest.  nib assembly $20 convertor $1.80 clip $2.00 Total: $23.80  - OR - 1x Atrax fountain pen kit for the same 3 parts listed above and toss the rest. $9.75  However if you want to spend double the cost on parts then by all means go for it.  If you want to call it 'kitless' then you should not cheap out and buying a premade nib, feed assembly and housing but rather make them yourself as they are kit components.



The clip is a kit component as well.  

I think the only ones who provably care about these definitions is us.  

If we want to push our craftsmanship to the highest levels we can, that's an admirable goal, but at the end of the day, I think we should just produce the pens that we want to make however we want to go about it and not worry about what qualifies as what.  

Maybe as parameters for a contest it matters, but in real life, I'm not so sure.


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## Dalecamino (Dec 18, 2013)

I suppose then, we should have maybe called them "Relatively Kitless". I am one who bought mentioned low cost kits. As it happened, I also liked the clips provided in them. Until I find a way to manufacture my own clips, or find a reasonable supplier, our options are a bit limited. What would be a more suitable description? If not kitless? I wouldn't want to be misleading anyone.


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## propencity (Dec 18, 2013)

I think if you were trying to sell to avid fountain pen users or even fountain pen collectors, they are very conscious of the components, particularly the nib and feed that goes with it.  Perceptively, this market of users will tend to look away from kit pen nibs and opt with with the more known brand (ie. Bock nibs) instead.  

There have been kit nibs/feeds that have performed equally well.  And there are those that require further tuning and smoothing. Goes both ways really.  

Mark


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## Smitty37 (Dec 18, 2013)

*Kitless ---*

I think kitless came about because some members wanted to make more components themselves...things like clips, tips, bands caps.....and of course there are those who want to do the whole thing, including nib and feed themselves.  Any hobby will have some people who want to get deeper into things than others I can understand the pride one could feel from taking a pen and saying I made everything myself --- some would even want to include the ink in that.

For most though kitless usually means they omit/replace some of the parts typically found in a kit with parts they make themselves or develope a style where they make the such that it does not use a number of the parts found in a kit.


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## Dan Masshardt (Dec 18, 2013)

dalecamino said:


> I suppose then, we should have maybe called them "Relatively Kitless". I am one who bought mentioned low cost kits. As it happened, I also liked the clips provided in them. Until I find a way to manufacture my own clips, or find a reasonable supplier, our options are a bit limited. What would be a more suitable description? If not kitless? I wouldn't want to be misleading anyone.



I think probably 98% of custom pens use kit clips. If they have a clip.  

This is not bad at all.  I think it makes perfect sense.  

I'm just wondering why it's so important to us to lock down an official definition.


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## edstreet (Dec 18, 2013)

Why not just call them 'custom' and be done with it?  That is all encompassing and well rounded description.  Terms like 'kitless' does limit and binds you to a certain status quo that is defined by the kit companies.

As for nibs goes, all nibs needs to be tweaked for the specific user, the higher the $ of the pen the more aware the user is of this fact.


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## mredburn (Dec 18, 2013)

If you buy the parts in a kit and use only some of those parts then they are kit parts and your pen is "semi-kitless" If you buy them separately not robbing them from a kit than you could define them as simply "components". Hence you can claim "kitless"
Like all other endeavors/hobbies we can define "kitless" in any way that suits us.  It doesnt have to be hard line make your own feed and nib. All that is neccesary is that "We" understand the useage as it applies to our hobby/ endeavor.

If it means a tinkers damn to anybody any way.


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## edstreet (Dec 18, 2013)

How do you verify that the nib manufactures does not sell the same series to kit manufactures to include in their kits?  

Say a company makes 10 million nib holders, sells 5 million to pen kit companies and the other 5 million to the open market so you can buy them individually?  Same holder, same feed different sources, different unique trendy IAP labels, same product.


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## Smitty37 (Dec 18, 2013)

Well mostly Roy (OKLAHOMAN) and I sell Component Sets rather than kits....So in one sense all of ours are kitless.


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## edstreet (Dec 18, 2013)

Smitty37 said:


> Well mostly Roy (OKLAHOMAN) and I sell Component Sets rather than kits....So in one sense all of ours are kitless.





Hmmm failed marketing strategies are coming out on this one.  Lets look at the dictionary.


```
Kit \Kit\, n. 
     5. Hence: A collection of tools or other objects to be used
        for a specific purpose, often contained in a box which may
        be carried conveniently; a working outfit, as of a
        workman, a soldier, and the like; as, a plumber's kit; a
        doctor's kit; a cosmetic kit; a first-aid kit.
        [1913 Webster +PJC]
     6. A group of separate parts, things, or individuals; -- used
        with whole, and generally contemptuously; as, the whole
        kit of them; the whole kit and kaboodle.
        [1913 Webster +PJC]
```


```
Component \Com*po"nent\ (k[o^]m*p[=o]"nent), a. [L. componens,
     p. pr. of componere. See Compound, v. t.]
     Serving, or helping, to form; composing; constituting;
     constituent.
     [1913 Webster]

  Component \Com*po"nent\, n.
     A constituent part; an ingredient.
     [1913 Webster]
```


Truth be known technically both of you sell custom kits that you put together.


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## Dalecamino (Dec 18, 2013)

edstreet said:


> Why not just call them 'custom' and be done with it?  That is all encompassing and well rounded description.  Terms like 'kitless' does limit and binds you to a certain status quo that is defined by the kit companies.
> 
> As for nibs goes, all nibs needs to be tweaked for the specific user, the higher the $ of the pen the more aware the user is of this fact.


Ed, there are guys selling kit pens on a custom made web site. I would want to avoid the comparison. Segmented kit pens have been called custom made as well. Just a personal view.


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## Smitty37 (Dec 18, 2013)

edstreet said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > Well mostly Roy (OKLAHOMAN) and I sell Component Sets rather than kits....So in one sense all of ours are kitless.
> ...


Well Ed, You can buy a badminton set consisting of rackets, net, posts. shuttlecocks etc. which when used together allow you to play badminton ---- but I've never heard it called a badminton kit- or you can buy a set of dinnerware which are intended to be used together to set a dinner table, but I've never heard that called a dining kit (a military mess kit is a different beast the operative word is mess). 

When I go to the lumber yard and buy boards of various dimensions for a project and I also get screws, glue, sandpaper, stain/paint etc. from the hardware store - then follow instructions on the saw plan developed by me or someone else....have I now created a kit?  Sure I have - have I also created a component set?  Yes indeed.  

In a purely technical definition a kit and a component set can be the same thing or component set could be considered one definition for kit but there are different connotations.  Someone buys one of my component sets and adds one of Toni's blanks probably offers a custom (rather than Kit) pen for sale....are they false advertising?  I like component set because it (in my opinion) implies the buyer is going to add something of value to make a complete item --- kit to me implies "you have everything and just put it together".


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## edstreet (Dec 18, 2013)

Ok I can play the name game to 

/'badminton kit'/ Amazon knows what that is.
Amazon.com: Wilson Badminton Tour Kit: Sports & Outdoors

/'dining kit'/  Amazon knows about that to.
Amazon.com: Weighted Dining Kit - Model 557144: Health & Personal Care

Amazon also knows about /'dinning kit'/
Amazon.com: Melamine 6pc. Dinnerware Kit: Kitchen & Dining

Lets see if Amazon knows about /'Kitless pen'/


> Your search ""kitless pen"" did not match any products.



Nope, sorry. 

However, Amazon does know about /'custom pen'/


> Showing 1 - 16 of 149 Results



Now if I were to post a photo of a fountain pen feed could someone tell me if it was pulled out of a kit set or not?  I seriously doubt that anyone here could even tell me the company who made it.  Yet from all the opinions we have on what is and what is not kit or kitless says if it comes from a kit then it's kit or semi-kit.  Interesting how the most important aspect of the fountain pen itself is heavy pushed to be seriously discredited and ignored in this never ending debate.


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## Jim Burr (Dec 18, 2013)

Dan Masshardt said:


> I'm just wondering why it's so important to us to lock down an official definition.


 
This is the best idea I've seen since it was put to bed last month...again.


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## Smitty37 (Dec 18, 2013)

Jim Burr said:


> Dan Masshardt said:
> 
> 
> > I'm just wondering why it's so important to us to lock down an official definition.
> ...


As long as IAP attracts new members - this will never be put to bed - nor should it.


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## Smitty37 (Dec 18, 2013)

edstreet said:


> Ok I can play the name game to
> 
> /'badminton kit'/ Amazon knows what that is.
> Amazon.com: Wilson Badminton Tour Kit: Sports & Outdoors
> ...


 
Ya learn something new every day....I've been calling them badminton sets since before you were born and now I learn they are "kits".

On the other hand - if Wilson can call "complete sets" kits, why can't I call "complete kits" sets?
the subcatigory the badminton kits are listed under is "complete sets".


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## edstreet (Dec 18, 2013)

Smitty37 said:


> Jim Burr said:
> 
> 
> > Dan Masshardt said:
> ...



Amen to that.

Bottom line is it should be about what the end product looks like, writes like and feels like rather than silly naming grouping or what not.


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## edstreet (Dec 18, 2013)

Smitty37 said:


> On the other hand - if Wilson can call "complete sets" kits, why can't I call "complete kits" sets?



I dunno.

First I think of is 'complete'.  Hints of parts falling out of the box or getting broken en shipment from wherever it's made.  Also would indicate there are 'incomplete sets' as well but unlikely you will find anyone marketing that.


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## Smitty37 (Dec 18, 2013)

edstreet said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > Jim Burr said:
> ...


Yea, but silly is more fun:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin: Besides how else would I have ever learned that we now have badminton kits.


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## Dale Lynch (Dec 18, 2013)

This has been a fun thread to read.I got a small case of the giggles from it.


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## kovalcik (Dec 19, 2013)

Just to take the silly a step further, if Constant (of LazerLinez) assembles one of his Liberty pens, can he call it a kitless pen?  Only if he does it before putting the parts together in a bag?


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## Smitty37 (Dec 19, 2013)

How about if I take the 7 slimline parts (I think it's 7) from 7 different bags, at different times so all 7 parts are never all together until I finish assembly, have I made a "kitless" pen?


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## monark88 (Dec 19, 2013)

I've watched the various postings over the few years I've been a member here and I have enjoyed  every one of the postings. It seems to create more ideas about the "Kits" as to what they should be called, which is a good thing, I feel.

Some day we will probably agree, mostly, on what to call them. Personally I don't care much for calling them "Kits". For me, it has a tendency to lower the assumed quality of the finished product, in one's thinking, if not actually. I would put my 2 cents in for just calling them "component sets". Or anything relatively similar.

For those of us who might say that it doesn't really matter what we call them are correct, in part. To us, I would agree. But, for those of us who have or are selling to the public, it matters greatly. The public is becoming more "educated" to custom pens for sale. We have educated them far to much. There should be certain areas that should be kept within the "industry", if I may use that description. Just look at some eBay descriptions on cheap "custom made" pens being sold there, as well as some online sites.

I bring this up because of 2 different people over the past month that bought 3 of my rollerball pens. Both ask me if I just purchased the "kits" from online? They continued that I "put together a good looking pen". Importantly, I guess is that they bought anyway. But, I didn't care much for the place I was put in...being just someone who put together kits. Anyway, I wasn't happy with the word, "kits".

Obviously, just my idea of what a pen maker, artistic pen worker, custom pen creator,..... or whatever suits each of us at the moment. Each one of us has their own ideas of what they are comfortable with calling these, as it should be.

Just my own musings about an interesting subject, 

Russ


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## hard hat (Dec 19, 2013)

Or what I you purchase 5 nib/feed assemblies from retailer A, 5 clips from retailer B, a bunch of plastic blanks from retailer C. then turn an cut threads to make 5 caps and 5 bodies, 5 finials, and five sections. Put them in ziplock bags so that at a future date you can put them together. Have you just made kit pens?
 This argument is circular and could go on until the end of time, driven by old men and fueled with egos.


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## Smitty37 (Dec 19, 2013)

hard hat said:


> Or what I you purchase 5 nib/feed assemblies from retailer A, 5 clips from retailer B, a bunch of plastic blanks from retailer C. then turn an cut threads to make 5 caps and 5 bodies, 5 finials, and five sections. Put them in ziplock bags so that at a future date you can put them together. Have you just made kit pens?
> This argument is circular and could go on until the end of time, driven by *old men* and fueled with egos.


Hmmmm.....I think some of the folks who have entered this debate do not qualify as *old men *driven by egos.:biggrin::biggrin:


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## monark88 (Dec 19, 2013)

hard hat said:


> Or what I you purchase 5 nib/feed assemblies from retailer A, 5 clips from retailer B, a bunch of plastic blanks from retailer C. then turn an cut threads to make 5 caps and 5 bodies, 5 finials, and five sections. Put them in ziplock bags so that at a future date you can put them together. Have you just made kit pens?
> This argument is circular and could go on until the end of time, driven by old men and fueled with egos.




OK, OK, here we go again blaming "old men" for whatever...... Doesn't speak well for your thought process. We all have our own ideas and should be allowed here without falling to the level of personal attacks. At least, I would have hoped.

Most, if not all ideas/arguments do go "circular" until a place comfortable for most is settled on. Or, the debate goes on.

But thanks 
russ


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## InvisibleMan (Dec 19, 2013)

Kit pens come with instructions.  They are fun.

Kitless pens do not come with instructions, and are completely customized by the pen maker, who develops his or her own instructions, whether on paper or in his/her head.  They are also fun. 

Kit pens can be modified away from the instructions.  They are somewhat customized, depending on the modification. These are fun (I suppose.  I don't think I ever did this, but it must be fun, because people do it on purpose when they don't have to for any particular reason, other than to do it).

You can also make custom blanks.  It is fun to make custom blanks to use on kit pens.  Fun, fun, fun.  Segmented wood, resin pours, chunks of animals cast in resin, etc.  These are custom blanks that can be used used on kit pens, or somewhat modified kit pens.  Customized materials can also often be used to make custom kitless pens.  Custom kitless custom material pens are fun, too.

So, make your pen, as much or as little as you want with or without instructions, and have fun!


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## beck3906 (Dec 20, 2013)

Old men with egos.  Ha!

I believe I resemble that description.  :biggrin:

I just hope all you young 'uns can grow up to be the old generation some day and be called an old man.   :wink:

Now back to the fun.


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## Displaced Canadian (Dec 20, 2013)

I just call them pens.


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## edstreet (Dec 20, 2013)

InvisibleMan said:


> Kit pens come with instructions.  They are fun.
> 
> Kitless pens do not come with instructions, and are completely customized by the pen maker, who develops his or her own instructions, whether on paper or in his/her head.  They are also fun.
> 
> ...



There are 'instructions' here on IAP on how to make kitless pens, does this now make them 'kits'?

Ironic how many throw around 'custom' on this topic.


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## frank123 (Dec 20, 2013)

All components have to come from somewhere.

Unless you are a true master craftsman who makes them from scratch, I don't really see the difference between components that came from a kit or basically the same components that were purchased individually.  

Personally, I don't see any problem in salvaging component parts (nibs, mechanisms, etc.) from commercial pens and using them as components on your own unique pen.  I've done this several times (but I'm an amateur that just does it for fun and not really that good as a pen maker) and find the removal of the desired component from a commercial pen sometimes takes more time. skill, and ingenuity than making the new pen does.  It's usually hard to beat the quality and reliability of upper low to middle priced commercial pens with most kit components, particularly click mechanisms and clips, at anywhere near the price they are selling for in stores.


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## Waluy (Dec 20, 2013)

It could also be argued that there is no such thing as a kitless pen. The logic being take away the blank used and what is left is the kit used. Even if all you used was the nib take away your blank and you still have a kit (granted that kit only contains a nib but still a kit).


I just call all my pens artisan made.


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## InvisibleMan (Dec 20, 2013)

edstreet said:


> InvisibleMan said:
> 
> 
> > Kit pens come with instructions.  They are fun.
> ...



Clearly, somehow this silly topic is more emotional than I thought.  Didn't imagine my post could offend.  I'll bow out a loser since I don't care about it


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## glycerine (Dec 20, 2013)

If you buy a lawn mower, then take off the engine and use it to build a go-cart, did you build a "kitless" go-cart?????


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