# My Latest Creations--Complexity of Time



## jtdesigns

This is from my Complexity of Time series.  These pens were made using vintage Waltham and Gruen watch parts.  I will be submitting these photos to a juried art show coming up this summer.  I thought I would share these.  Comments/criticisms welcome.  Thanks


----------



## 1080Wayne

Gorgeous !!


----------



## RAdams

How many watches does it take to make an ink pen?

Sounds like the opener to a racial joke against watches! 

Seriously, that pen is a work of art. Looks to me like each gear was painstakingly set and lots of fancy bending and manipulating of parts. I have seen several watch pens but i don't think i have ever seen one with this many parts in it. How many parts are in there? absolutely stunning. There are tiny parts inside the cogs and gears for crying out loud. The fit and finish are perfect as well. 

My ONLY critique would be to cast a custom finial with a gear in it, and maybe a center band with some parts inside, Or maybe, just maybe, you could be so lucky as to find a gear that you could replace the accent ring on the CB with. If you did that, this pen would be over the top. On further thought, If you could accent the clip with a minute hand, or make/have made a custom clip shaped like a minute hand! Oh man... that would be the bees knees! 

Even without modded finial and CB, I don't think you will have any problems getting into the art show! Congrats on a masterpiece!


----------



## RAdams

WOW.... I just realized those are two different pens. I thought we were looking at open and closed of the same pen.


So not only did you make an incredible pen... you dod it TWICE! amazing... simply amazing.


----------



## johncrane

Awesome work and pens! No worries a home run coming up!!:biggrin:


----------



## leestoresund

The creativity on this site is so outstanding.

Lee


----------



## Jim15

All I can say is, Awesome.


----------



## cinder_ladylocket

Gosh....you got to make us some blanks...steampunk rock!!!


----------



## Dai Sensei

Absolutely amazing


----------



## Dustygoose

Wow!!  What a beautiful Piece!


----------



## cnirenberg

Simply beautiful.


----------



## stolicky

I really like these 'time pieces'.

Good job.


----------



## theHullTurn

RAdams said:


> WOW.... I just realized those are two different pens. I thought we were looking at open and closed of the same pen.
> 
> 
> So not only did you make an incredible pen... you dod it TWICE! amazing... simply amazing.



Thanks for pointing that out i missed it too!!! :biggrin:

Well done on these pens! They are stunning!


----------



## jbostian

Simply amazing!!!

Jamie


----------



## knifecut

That's making your time count for something! Nice.


----------



## Jim Smith

In a word WOW!  They are both stunning collector's pieces.  I would love to try one fo these watch pens.  Is there a tutorial available to start me on the right track.

Thank you for sharing your very creative and beautiful work.

Jim Smith


----------



## Bree

It's about TIME someone produced a beautiful, winning, timepiece pen!!
:wink::wink::wink:


----------



## Jon-wx5nco

Those are absolutely beautiful.  I would love to see a video on how to make those blanks.  I would never be able to make one as those are WAY out of my league.  Thank you for sharing.  I may have to save a copy of those pictures as I am in awe.
Well done!


----------



## David Keller

Gorgeous pens!


----------



## workinforwood

Great looking pen Jt.  Had to be a lot of work gluing all those parts on the tube!


----------



## jimofsanston

I think Barry Gross has a trade mark on the Watch pens. You might want to take a look at it. I know some one in my club was talking about it. That Barry told him it would be ok if he made one and gave it a gift not to sell it or something along that line.


----------



## thewishman

Those are great-looking pens! A few steps up from Barry's (at least the initial ones I saw last year.) Thanks for sharing the photos!

Do they keep time accurately? :biggrin: (At least more than twice a day.)


----------



## shepardscross

Gorgeous Pens.


----------



## Mrs Rojo22

Stunning!

Robin


----------



## jtdesigns

jimofsanston said:


> I think Barry Gross has a trade mark on the Watch pens. You might want to take a look at it. I know some one in my club was talking about it. That Barry told him it would be ok if he made one and gave it a gift not to sell it or something along that line.



I actually spoke with Barry and he told me as long as I didn't mass produce them........like that is even possible with the amount of time in one pen.


----------



## jocat54

Very Very NICE! How did you pick the time showing on them?


----------



## jtdesigns

It was the exact time of my birth.....just trying to have an artsy signature


----------



## Lenny

While I am constantly amazed by what people here come up with ... this is right up there with the best ones I have seen! 
Wonderful!!!!


----------



## jtdesigns

Just for reference, I checked with a good friend of mine who is a patent attorney.  It would be rather difficult to patent a "watch part pen" because the layout and design would have to be spelled/draw out.  Any significant variance would be outside a patent.  Also one would have to get permission or own the rights to the watch maker's name to incorporate this into a patent.  Don't get me wrong, I have great respect for Barry but I think this was said to keep people from taking his ideas and mass producing them (like the circuit board pen which he claims was of his origin).  I fully intend to honor our agreement which was to not mass produce.  I do, however, intend to take this concept and improve upon it.  

Thanks everyone for you compliments!!  I also would like to hear of any criticisms.


----------



## jttheclockman

I told him too that I was making them to sell also. He has actually changed his design from what he originally started with. The clock pen has been around for alot longer than he did it. It may have been his idea to use parts to make a blank and that would have to be researched also. Just like every idea, hard to patten things like this.


----------



## AceMrFixIt

Where do the parts come from? Did you take the watch apart or did they come loose? Great looking pen either way.


----------



## skiprat

jtdesigns said:


> Thanks everyone for you compliments!! I also would like to hear of any criticisms.


 

:redface: Er, ok. they stink!!!!  Can I have one please?:biggrin:


----------



## jtdesigns

AceMrFixIt said:


> Where do the parts come from? Did you take the watch apart or did they come loose? Great looking pen either way.



I find watches at antique/flea markets.  I then take them apart and try to use every piece I can.  It takes about 6-7 watches worth of parts to do a Jr. Gent size pen.


----------



## JohnU

Beautiful Work!   my wife has a watch collection.... I wonder if she would miss 6 or 7 ???


----------



## nava1uni

Your work is stunning.  The attention to detail is amazing.  I think that it would be interesting to see one with the hardware being black, either matt or gloss, so that the parts would be highlighted against such a background.


----------



## Rum Pig

WOW that is just amazing
 how long did it take?


----------



## jimofsanston

I am glad that is cleared up. I work on swiss time locks for banks. Now I feel that i can now do one without getting in trouble. Thanks for the info. Those are some great looking pens.


----------



## jtdesigns

*Public Apology*



jimofsanston said:


> I am glad that is cleared up. I work on swiss time locks for banks. Now I feel that i can now do one without getting in trouble. Thanks for the info. Those are some great looking pens.



Wow, the subtlety of a train wreck!  Anyway, after being called out for claiming the work as my own by Mr. Gross (I actually did make the pen from watch parts) I must formally acknowledge that my pen ("my" being the pen I made not my idea) is not of an original idea by me.  Apparently, while there is no patent on pen, there is a copyright by Barry Gross, since he is the first person to put watch parts on a pen and cast in resin.  There is also a copyright on casting cigar labels, bottle caps, and flies (fishing) by Mr. Gross.    I have unintentionally caused damage to the livelihood of Mr. Gross.  Out of respect, I will not be sharing any pictures of pens that I make that might infringe on someone's livelihood or claim any work as my own original idea.  I really thought that in regards to pen making, there are very few original ideas.  I just wonder if segmenting, resin casting, and bullet cartridge pens are copyrighted because I have made and sold these too.:wink:  

Thank you all for your compliments, I do appreciate it and feel that is a just reward for a lot of time spent on these watch pens (about 8 hours each one.......but not my idea).  Thanks again, and I really do feel bad for stirring this hornet's nest.

Jeff Tate


----------



## jttheclockman

Jeff

I do not think you did anything wrong. You did not state it was your idea in any of your posts and in fact you mention in this post that you spoke with Barry and told him of your intentions. You gave him credit for it and chose to make one in your style. I am not sure if you both do the same technique in making the pen. Thanks for showing and keep showing your work.


----------



## skiprat

Well, I still think they are ALL damned nice!!!  Your's, Barry's and even the original Caran d Ache 1010.:wink:

It's a pity the other thread was locked because it could have cleared up questions about using labels , logo's etc under resin. Not long ago there was a long thread on this subject and as Barry had obviously done the research into this, his input would have been invaluable.


----------



## Glass Scratcher

Putting peices of stuff in plastic or as it is more commonly called, producing an embedment, has been going on for at least 50 years.

I'd like to see what Caran de Ache has to say about Barry's idea.  Find an old paperweight produced by a still extant gift company with fishing flies, bottle caps or broken watch parts and this silliness goes away.

I seriously doubt your pens damaged Barry's livelyhood...


----------



## jtdesigns

I agree.....these controversies sometimes are good things.


----------



## rjwolfe3

Your pens are very beautiful but I have a question. How do you find out if a pen idea is copyrighted? I know you can search patents but how do you search copyrights? What if you come up with what you think is an original idea and spend hours making it and then post it and someone comes along and says you stole the idea from them? I had no idea that Mr. Gross had copyrights on any of that stuff and now I am scared to come up with any of my ideas for fear of being accused of stealing.


----------



## snowman56

Everone that has made a slimline pen has copied someone,including Barry.Your pen is great keep up the good work.


----------



## Reb

Just think if the first guy that made a snakeskin pen had Copy write on them.


----------



## Russianwolf

yes unless Barry has a patent on the technique, his copywrite is only for a single expression of the work (or each expression of the work he makes), and you have a copywrite on each expression of the work you make.

Caran De Ache's 1010 pen may actually have a patent, but considering it is produced in a much different fashion, doesn't apply here.But if Barry thinks he can stop anyone from making a pen with watch parts simply because he "made one first" he will surely have fun making them stop production of their $100,000 pens.


----------



## jttheclockman

Russianwolf said:


> yes unless Barry has a patent on the technique, his copywrite is only for a single expression of the work (or each expression of the work he makes), and you have a copywrite on each expression of the work you make.
> 
> Caran De Ache's 1010 pen may actually have a patent, but considering it is produced in a much different fashion, doesn't apply here.But if Barry thinks he can stop anyone from making a pen with watch parts simply because he "made one first" he will surely have fun making them stop production of their $100,000 pens.


 

I wish the other post was not locked but the powers to be saw fit to do so. What is interesting in his explanation is he says he does not mind you making one or two as long as you do not commercially market them as your own creation. Well we can say that with all the blanks we buy and that is including the wood blanks. We can't claim we made them but we still sell them. If he wants revenue from them then why does he not sell the blanks????? Whoever makes the arylic blanks or the carbon fiber blanks or the worthless wood blanks can make the same claims. To put ideas out for all to see and not have them copied is dreaming. Good luck with that one. How many people sell pens and are not even members here.?????  You still created the form of the pen and the finish on it and for that you can say you made it. Wow what a shame.


----------



## Jim in Oakville

Nice pen...   love the beauty of it.... I can hardly wait to try my own hand at this idea myself..   you can patent a pen?  Must be a US thing, glad I'm in Canada!


----------



## jttheclockman

Jim in Oakville said:


> Nice pen... love the beauty of it.... I can hardly wait to try my own hand at this idea myself.. you can patent a pen? Must be a US thing, glad I'm in Canada!


 

Be careful Jim, Barry is coming across the border.:biggrin: Then he is going to all the other places that our members live. :biggrin:


----------



## Jim in Oakville

jttheclockman said:


> Be careful Jim, Barry is coming across the border.:biggrin: Then he is going to all the other places that our members live. :biggrin:



Yeah ...  I've had an email from Barry before...  I created a How To make Pens on line using a list of my materials. Included was my then use of abrolon pads.  I got them from a Canadian source, but Barry wrote me and was abrupt in demanding I credit him for the pads???  GimmeaBreak!   I felt he was rude and intrusive...  left me with a lasting impression....


----------



## ROOKIETURNER

Jim in Oakville said:


> Yeah ... I've had an email from Barry before... I created a How To make Pens on line using a list of my materials. Included was my then use of abrolon pads. I got them from a Canadian source, but Barry wrote me and was abrupt in demanding I credit him for the pads??? GimmeaBreak! I felt he was rude and intrusive... left me with a lasting impression....


 
Why would you have to credit him for the pads? I just did a search and as far as I can tell they are not his. I found them on many sites, and none credited him.

This guy is something else.


----------



## rd_ab_penman

OK......... How dose one prove they have a Patent, Trade Mark or Copyright on something they made.
Would they not have to do some research to make sure that someone else dose not hold a Patent, Trade Mark or Copyright on what they have made?

Les


----------



## glycerine

Reb said:


> Just think if the first guy that made a snakeskin pen had Copy write on them.


 
Well, technically any "artwork" that any one of us creates is automatically copyrighted the moment the "art" is created.
But the thing is, it only applies to that one particular piece of "art". If I take a photograph of the Lincoln Memorial, no one can use that photograph or a copy of it without my permission. But anyone in the world with a camera can go to D.C. and take their own photograph of the Lincoln Memorial.
Same thing applies here. Barry's watch pen is copyrighted simply because he made it. But that does not mean that no one can make a pen with watch parts in it. I think you guys are taking this too far.


----------



## Russianwolf

rd_ab_penman said:


> OK......... How dose one prove they have a Patent, Trade Mark or Copyright on something they made.
> Would they not have to do some research to make sure that someone else dose not hold a Patent, Trade Mark or Copyright on what they have made?
> 
> Les



Patents are registered with the US patent office and are searchable. Trade marks are also registered. Copyrights do not have to be registered, but can be.


----------



## www

WOW that is nice.


----------



## Texatdurango

glycerine said:


> .... *I think you guys are taking this too far*.


 
Actually, the way I see it, it's not *US* guys who are taking this too far! From what I can tell from reading a few threads the person who contacted Jeff about his nicely done pen was taking the matter too far....... the rest is just chatter from those who think the whole thing is disgusting and shopuld have never happened to begin with!

Geeze.......... the crap and egos we have to put up with to make a few ink pens! 

But, there is one good thing to all this mess.......... When I went to have a look at the Caran De Ache's 1010 "watch parts" pen, the article explained where it got it's name, "1010". For years I always noticed that in almost every ad you ever see about a watch, the hands show 10:10 and now I know why! That is the position of the hands when they are perfectly balanced with each other! :biggrin:


----------



## jtdesigns

Oh crap, my "interpretation" of said copyrighted art is set for 10:25 (when I was born...btw I just copyrighted 10:25:biggrin: ) I hope that Caran de Ache doesn't think I stole this idea as well.


----------



## Russianwolf

10:10 is also a jewelers trick, it makes a "smiley face" which is more pleasing to the eye.

Of course, with most watches being battery powered now, this no longer applies as much.


----------



## workinforwood

If someone was to  imitate something I do at this sort of level, I sure would be blushing from flattery about now!  The pen is extremely well done.  I do not see any glue marks or air bubbles in the resin.  If there are any..they are very well hidden!


----------



## Texatdurango

jtdesigns said:


> Oh crap, my "interpretation" of said copyrighted art is set for* 10:25* (when I was born...btw I just copyrighted 10:25:biggrin: ) I hope that Caran de Ache doesn't think I stole this idea as well.


 
I didn't even catch that!   Let there be no doubt that your work is your own!  Funny thing, when you first posted your pen last week I thought, I had seen something along the same lines before but couldn't remember where.  Then today when I visited their site I remember seeing their pen before but I never saw the other pen similar to yours until today.


----------



## jttheclockman

Texatdurango said:


> Actually, the way I see it, it's not *US* guys who are taking this too far! From what I can tell from reading a few threads the person who contacted Jeff about his nicely done pen was taking the matter too far....... the rest is just chatter from those who think the whole thing is disgusting and shopuld have never happened to begin with!
> 
> Geeze.......... the crap and egos we have to put up with to make a few ink pens!
> 
> But, there is one good thing to all this mess.......... When I went to have a look at the Caran De Ache's 1010 "watch parts" pen, the article explained where it got it's name, "1010". For years I always noticed that in almost every ad you ever see about a watch, the hands show 10:10 and now I know why! That is the position of the hands when they are perfectly balanced with each other! :biggrin:


 

I could have told you that one too. Also Mike mentioned the jewlers trick and that is also true. I take photos of my clocks when ever and whatever the time is it is. If I were doing it for a catalog then yes you pay attention to that detail. 

I also agree I think the whole thing started with one man's ego getting in the way on anothers interpretation of an art piece. Too bad. Does not help one's reputation in my opinion.


----------



## Russianwolf

you also have to wonder what he's going to do when PSI starts marketign the blanks (As I bet they will, as we've seen the carbon fibers and some others appear there)


----------



## Texatdurango

Russianwolf said:


> you also have to wonder what he's going to do when PSI starts marketign the blanks (As I bet they will, as we've seen the carbon fibers and some others appear there)


 
I'm gonna go 'round to the local flea markets and start buying up all the old watches I can find.  I can see the supply and demand raising the prices pretty soon!


----------



## Muggsy1776

This all sounds like a bunch of silliness to me.  Art, and artisitic intrepetation, is available to everyone.  Unless you make an EXACT copy of his pen you have no further obligations to him.  Monet used flowers in many of his paintings, does that mean I can no longer use flowers in mine?  I guess imitation being the highest form of flattery no longer applies.


----------



## workinforwood

Muggsy1776 said:


> This all sounds like a bunch of silliness to me.  Art, and artisitic intrepetation, is available to everyone.  Unless you make an EXACT copy of his pen you have no further obligations to him.  Monet used flowers in many of his paintings, does that mean I can no longer use flowers in mine?  I guess imitation being the highest form of flattery no longer applies.



Painting and wall art is completely different than a pen.  A pen is an item of function beyond just looking at it and is subject to different rules.  Any copyrights of Monet are long since gone, but when they did exist, the copyrights had nothing to do with flowers.  They had to do with his style and interpretation of flowers.  If you had never seen his painting, you could sit down for a million years and beyond and you would never come close to duplicating what he did even though you painted a billion plus flowers by now. If you were sitting next to Monet, looking at the same flower patch, you would have a completely different painting from your interpretation and style than he does.  Not just 1% or 5% different, it would be 100% different.  You see everything different, your style is different, your colors are different, you are in a universe unto yourself. This is the essence of art, it comes from within.  You can never copy someone unless you do it intentionally, because everyone is their own snowflake.  Any painting expert would be able to point out a thousand differences, not just one, because the flowers themselves are not what is copyright.

Imitation still is flattery and still applies.  You can obtain permission to copy something, and if it is something that is copyright but the copyright has little ground to stand on, you can at still give credit where credit is due.  If no credit is given, then it's simply stolen, and thus the imitation is no longer flattering.


----------



## Russianwolf

One other thought I had on this.

I have a regular "date" with my wife. We will both show up at a Borders while out doing errands and have a cup (coffee for her, tea for me) and chat and flip through magazines and books.

I picked up a book from the craft section a couple weeks ago and was curious about it. They used all kinds of found things in art and made some VERY OUTRAGEOUS stuff too. But one of the things I saw lots of were......... watch parts. Yep, vintage watch parts in art and jewelry. Sometime soldered in place, sometimes dangling, and sometimes cast in resin. The style is called Steampunk, do a good search and you find a bunch of stuff. 

So what you guys are making is a Steampunk Fountain pen. And the style has been around for at least a decade. 

Here are just a few examples of some of it. http://www.google.com/products?rlz=...esult_group&ct=image&resnum=1&ved=0CBcQzAMwAA

Have fun.


----------



## jttheclockman

Mike

Just go to ebay and you find many dealers with the watch parts. I won an auction there to get a tin can full of these parts in preparation to make these pens. This is not anything new. They are using this in scrapbook making for years. The concept of using watch parts is definetly not a new idea. They are used in bottle stoppers as well. So claim that as a copyrighted idea too. It will not hold water.  I think the reason you do not see more pens is because of the time and effort it takes to make up one blank. Like someone said if there is enough demand then one of the big guns will take the idea and run with it. I would not be surprised to see that happen.


----------



## waynewright

Jeff,

I have been following this thread and am somewhat confused why it has become a forum for what can or cannot be claimed as someone's original idea.  From what I have read you and Barry had a conversation where he shared with you information on how to make his watch pens and you agreed not to make them for commercial use.  You then made some pens and posted them on IAP stating they were part of your Complexity of Time Series of Pens.  Barry obviously took this to mean you were not holding up your end of the agreement.  I would think this could have been much better resolved through personal communication than a forum on IAP.  Just my two cents.


waynewright


----------



## bgibb42

For what it's worth now, I think these two pens are outstanding.  Beautiful craftsmanship, and the watch parts complement the pen components well.  Nice job, and I hope you share work like this in the future.


----------



## SuperDave

For what it's worth, I have a longstanding copyright on website forums (a gift from ALGore after making a sizable donation), and IAP operates at my discretion, so everyone should enjoy it while it lasts... I may get a wild hare one day and shut the entire internet discussion process down completely!        which should free up a lot of bandwidth for all the "cell phones", a name of which which I also hold the copyright.    :devil:


----------



## sefali

waynewright said:


> Jeff,
> 
> I have been following this thread and am somewhat confused why it has become a forum for what can or cannot be claimed as someone's original idea.  From what I have read you and Barry had a conversation where he shared with you information on how to make his watch pens and you agreed not to make them for commercial use.  You then made some pens and posted them on IAP stating they were part of your Complexity of Time Series of Pens.  Barry obviously took this to mean you were not holding up your end of the agreement.  I would think this could have been much better resolved through personal communication than a forum on IAP.  Just my two cents.
> 
> 
> waynewright



I just came over here after reading the closed thread. I'm shocked it took 7 pages for someone to point out the flip side. Set all the copyright bull aside (that is all it is), and you still have a broken gentleman's agreement. JT asked Barry for help in making a couple of Barry's pens for him and his father. Barry was glad to help, as long as they were made for personal use, or as gifts, and they were not for sale. JT took all that help, and proceeded to unveil his Complexity of Time Series of Pens. I doubt there is anyone who reads that title, and does not envision a line of pens for sale. If you want to copy someone's idea for a pen, knock yourself out - we all do it constantly. If you want to sell your version, so what. But, you're totally wrong when you ask that person for their help, and agree not to sell those pens in exchange, only to soak it all in and go back on your word.


----------



## pensmyth

I've been following these threads and maybe I missed something. I don't believe Jeff said he was making them to sell. The first pictures he posted were to show a couple of pens he was attempting to put in an art show. He indicated they were part of a series of pens. I took this to indicate that he was making different versions of this pen.


----------



## ROOKIETURNER

A series can mean a series for sell or a series for an art collection. I also thought that he was refering to the an art collection.

Being an accomplished pencil sketch artist I have entered several shows. In some, I had a "series" of works, that had a theme.

With that I am done with this thread. Jeff keep up the good work!!!


----------



## chriselle

What??   No tutorial yet??  :biggrin:


----------



## jttheclockman

chriselle said:


> What?? No tutorial yet?? :biggrin:


 

Barry is working on the video right now.


----------



## gketell

Interesting thing is that Barry also has the "motherboard" blank listed as Copyrighted.  I KNOW he wasn't the first to do that one.

Oh, and he also has false advertising in that at the top he says all of his eco-pens are available as fountain pens but several models are sierras.  I feel like ordering a sierra fountain pen, don't you?

GK


----------

