# Taps and dies - please be honest



## skiprat (Mar 18, 2008)

I have been following the Taps and Dies threads ( No pun intended ) like a hawk. I'm sure lots of people have. There have been some pretty good successes so far. But I have some questions.
1. Are you happy with the results?
2. How many failures have you had per success?
3. Would the pen survive a drop on the floor?
4. Was the investment worth it?
5. Do you wish you had chosen a different size T and D?
6. Would you have preferred a tapered tap instead of a plug tap?

When I get some time ( and money ) I'll also buy taps and dies. But to match the Jr series pens. I don't particularly want to thread the blank either, but will make the hardware.


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## Firefyter-emt (Mar 18, 2008)

Skip, you may need to wait a while because we have not gotten them yet!

MY thoughts??

Happy? I think that I will be very happy with threading the body. However, I think that there will be a large learning curve and a lot of cracked caps with out a centerband. 

A drop to the floor? Here I think the pen may be much stronger as the whole body will hold the shock and not a smaller thread insert. 

Worth the investment? "If" you sell just a couple pens, the profit will break even.

I do think a tapered tap would of been better because it will taper the body strength to the center of the pen where it can be drilled just big enough to clear the converter. 

I would be in for a purchace of the male tap to match the Jr.Gent section. The center of this metal section can be threaded into a new section, but you need to match the threads of the coupler. I find no problems with the CSUSA thread coupler, although I would like a solid piece over the seperate band to be honest.

I think the Churchill style section is the best shape out there, and nice and simple. Given this, I think that the tap & die we went with was the best kit to go after. 

My thoughts only, and I did buy the die for the body, but I plan to retain the original cap threads.


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## pipeyeti (Mar 18, 2008)

I was in on the buy also. Hope to get them soon I'am planning on going the other way. Rather than cutting threads on the body I will at first still use the nib coupler that comes with the kit and a short piece of brass tube. My main goal Is to make a closed end body that will post the cap and then cut the threads in my own cap and get rid of the weight of the churchill cap. If you haven't done a churchill yet, the black finial on the top is solid brass, the plug that presses into the cap to hold the finial is also a large piece of brass,as is the tube.Those things account for most of the weight of the pen and the unbalanced feel when the cap is posted. By making it a closed end I will be eliminating the end posting piece and its coupler also sources of considerable weight.That is pretty much what I want to accomplish.


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## PenWorks (Mar 18, 2008)

What I can't figure out, (even though I was in on the buy) why we all went the expensive route. (even though it was a great deal for what we are getting) I mean, I was threading with a regular 9/16 tap & die set from a couple of years ago. Worked fine. Granted it was not multi start, but screwin is screwin  I had issues and failures. The biggest problem was keepping everything square. Doesn't take much to throw it off and look out of kilter, (scrap pile) just my thoughts.


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## Texatdurango (Mar 18, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Firefyter-emt_
> 
> ....However, I think that there will be a large learning curve and a lot of cracked caps with out a centerband....


I think you might be surprised with the caps and how strong they are, especially when you have a nice wall thickness.  I have threaded a few dozen caps now and only started making center bands the past few weeks and have yet to have a problem.

As far as dropping them on the floor, been there, done that!... several times.  These acrylic pens are so light they couldn't do too much damage when hitting the floor. 

Just my opinion


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## BRobbins629 (Mar 18, 2008)

I have had one success tapping thhe cap of a real pen in home brew PR - soon to be posted, and a few encouraging attempts with experiments in wood.  While I cannot get good cap threads directly in wood, I have been able to drill a hole larger than the tap, fill it with CA or PR, and then drill and tap that.  I have not made a pen that way, but the threads do seem to work.  Time and more experiments will tell.  This method should also work with Truestone and other difficult to tap materials.

For me, it was a good investment as it allowed me to make a design that I could not do with the stock coupler.  Kit parts were in the way for this particular design.  I did not look at this to recoup funds with sales. It was just an enabler to make my hobby more rewarding.

The size is perfect for what I wanted and I think allows considerable flexibility in design.  If I could get a slightly smaller one - 11.5 or 11mm I might get that as well but probably not a larger one.

The plug tap seems to work well - this is for the cap not where the converter goes.  When we did the first buy, we had the choice of taper, plug and bottoming.  The plug tap was really a guess at the time but having done and seen a few and now seeing where the designs are headed I'm sure the taper would work as well.  There doesn't appear to be a problem getting the plug tap started or keeping it straight in PR.  Have not tried it in metal.


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## alamocdc (Mar 18, 2008)

I too was in on the buy and hope for more success than folly... especially for that kind of $$$ output. But like anything else, I believe it will take patience, perseverance and practice.


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## ashaw (Mar 19, 2008)

I have already made three attempts at it.  Still learning.  Is it a good buy.  I quess my answer would be yes and no.  No because it you do more then one pen size by the time you get all of the taps you can have a paymetn for a good metal lathe.  Yes right now this is an inexpensive way of get into custom pens.  I think the metal lathe is the way to go because you can creat much better threads.  Just the expense and learning curve.  I will be trying again Saturday on my fourth attempt.  Hopefull 4 times is the charm.


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## Johnathan (Mar 19, 2008)

If there is anyone that went in on the group buy and got all three and has changed their minds, let me know.


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## Ligget (Mar 19, 2008)

I was in for the buy, but Joe very kindly offered me a refund as I have bought myself a brand new metal turning lathe![]


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## skiprat (Mar 19, 2008)

Sorry, I thought that you guys already had the stuff from the group buy. Hopefully everyone will keep us posted on their trials and tribulations. More successes than failures, I hope.

My main concern was with strength. This is why I don't want to thread the blank. I'm sure that I read somewhere that a lamination is stronger than the sum of it's parts. So I'm going to try and make kit type parts. I want bits from Stainless, or I wouldn't bother.

It seems some are struggling to keep things 'straight', esp when starting the cuts. My suggestion is, use your lathe. Blank in the headstock, tap or die kept aligned by the tailstock. 
The tap is easy. Most taps have a dimple on the end that the revolving centre will fit into, even when the T-bar wrench is on the tap. The die is trickier, but there are several sliding die holders that are commercially available and not too difficult to make either.

Mark, congrats on the new toy!!!!Hopefully you will get more time to learn and practice than me. I still think that you will be better off with a tap than trying to do internal multistart threads. 
You may want to get hold of Mr Geo Thomas' book for model engineers. It's fantastic. Contact me if you want more details on it.
Also check out Steve Bedair's lathe site. Great ideas for tooling and essential mods to your new toy. What lathe did you get?


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## ashaw (Mar 19, 2008)

One thing to keep in mind.  These taps and dies if I am correct will work on everything but wood.  I was reading a post somewhere else that you need taps and dies for woods.  They are not near as fine as metal working taps.

If you find something different please let me know.


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## Chuck Key (Mar 19, 2008)

> _Originally posted by skiprat_
> My main concern was with strength.
> 
> My suggestion is, use your lathe.



I believe your lathe suggestion will also solve your strength concern.  With the lathe you are not limited to the tap/die specs and you can leave or take off extra material as needed.  Just adjust the threads to suit your needs.

Chuckie


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## skiprat (Mar 19, 2008)

This is what I meant about using your lathe to align the tap or die.
http://www.bedair.org/Die/Die.html

Chuckie, I agree with you about cutting the threads with the lathe, you have no limits. But I've lost too much hair trying to master that dark art.  Has anyone ever made internal multi-start threads without a tap, successfully?


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## Firefyter-emt (Mar 19, 2008)

Skip, That is they way I figured that people would do it myself.  Are people here trying to tap by hand??!!

Here is a link for a low cost die holder.  I am not sure what the OD of the die will be yet so I have not ordered one myself, but this should be deep enough to tap our pen bodies.
http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INPDFF?PMPAGE=107&PMITEM=318-2031


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## PenWorks (Mar 19, 2008)

What size die holder would we need for the ones being ordered? Can we find out from E tap?


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## Chuck Key (Mar 19, 2008)

I remember reading of several people having sucess with multi start threads.  I will need to search for the link.


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## BRobbins629 (Mar 19, 2008)

> _Originally posted by PenWorks_
> 
> What size die holder would we need for the ones being ordered? Can we find out from E tap?


The dies are 1" od. ; The taps have a 0.354" shaft which I put in my jacobs chuck in the tailstock, keep it loose on the bed and turn the headstock by hand.


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## Firefyter-emt (Mar 19, 2008)

Bruce, that is exactly how I do it.  It helps if you have a hand wheel on the left side of the headstock as well.

Good to know about the 1" OD on the tap.


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## Texatdurango (Mar 19, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Firefyter-emt_
> 
> Skip, That is they way I figured that people would do it myself.  Are people here trying to tap by hand??!!
> 
> ...


Heck yea there are people doing it by hand, well at least holding the die.  I use the Jacobs chuck to hold the tap.  Glad I read this post, I'm going to order the die holder as soon as the enco site is back up again.


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## jjudge (Mar 25, 2008)

Tap and Die order had some hangups (argh! paypal) -- but the check is sent, and we have 4-5 weeks til they ship from the manufacturer.

We have about 33-34 folks who will (hopefully) share feedback when we get them in hand.

-- joe


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## alamocdc (Mar 25, 2008)

Thanks for doing this, Joe! I can't wait to try mine out when it gets here.[8D]


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## lesnpam (Mar 26, 2008)

i expect you all know this allready but whenever i have cut threads with a die by hand if you bring the tailstock up to press against the die/holder this will help to keep the threads straight
les


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## Texatdurango (Mar 26, 2008)

> _Originally posted by lesnpam_
> 
> i expect you all know this allready but whenever i have cut threads with a die by hand if you bring the tailstock up to press against the die/holder this will help to keep the threads straight
> les


OR you could use one of these...
http://www.ares-server.com/Ares/Ares.asp?MerchantID=RET01229&Action=Catalog&Type=Product&ID=82774


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## ashaw (Mar 27, 2008)

George 
I got one of those at MSC - They work great.  I finally worked out all of the kinks on the pen body.  Now I am tacking the Cap.  Should have my first completed pen after I come back from Atlanta. I have 4 people from our local pen club to be volunteers for testing out my new pens.  Hopefully by the End of May I will great some great feed back.


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