# Has "KITLESS" outlived its usefulness?



## Texatdurango

Back in 2008 I used the term KITLESS in a post to describe the new direction I wanted to take my pen making by making pens without the typical bag of parts found in pen kits.

Since then the term has been widely used, quite often being the source of some rather silly debates and even meaningless arguments with some going to great lengths trying to find the perfect or at least the most appropriate definition of the phrase.

Today there are so many folks pushing the boundaries of their pen making skills that the term KITLESS almost sounds like it doesn't belong anymore as a phrase describing some absolutely gorgeous creations.

Wouldn't it sound more appropriate to just say my CUSTOM pen to describe your wonderful creations?  Members here can easily see that it has no kit parts and that is why I think it adds no value to the description anymore.  

I've actually visited a few member web sites where they actually use the term KITLESS in their pen description.  Do we want our customers even thinking of kits or partial kits or no kits when looking at our custom hand crafted creations?

Just thinking out loud! Am I onto something or am I all washed up?


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## glycerine

I know what you are saying... but technically "custom" describes all of our pens anyway, whether we use kits or not.  Heck, I say we all just use the word "pen"!


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## jd99

How about "extraordinary pens", could mean kitless, partial kit, and kit pens; or anything in between.


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## its_virgil

I've mentioned in several posts that I never liked the term "kitless" and that other more well know penmakers don't use that term. They just make pens. Thanks George, I thought maybe it was falling on deaf ears. 
Do a good turn daily!
Don


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## Haynie

I agree.  If I was not on prescription narcotics I might be able to form a complete thought.


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## Glenn McCullough

I am with you in this one. Kitless says to the inexperienced that something is missing, please explain!!   No! 
I use the terms components or hardware, removing "kit" from my vocabulary.
I would love to see the word KIT removed from all our and our suppliers' vocabulary.


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## Gary Beasley

Maybe "freestyle" would be more apt.


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## plano_harry

In other construction hobbies, the term scratch built or scratch differentiates items built directly from raw materials or elements not packaged for the specific end result.  Somehow scratch pens just doesn't sound like the right word though


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## Displaced Canadian

When I sell/ give pens I don't say what kit it is, I just call it a pen. I think custom is better. I also think some terms like "kit pen" should stay in the shop. Instead of saying sierra kit, how about sierra style.


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## azamiryou

I agree "kitless" is sort-of meaningless, but I don't think custom works... to me, that sounds like it's been "customized" by the user or to the user's specifications. So if I design and build a pen from scratch and sell it, that's not custom, but if a buyer chooses a blank and component set and plating and I make the pen for them, that is a *custom* pen *custom*-made for that *custom*er.

We all make handmade pens. Almost every pen shown on this forum includes parts that were purchased and parts that the craftsman/artist worked on. Those purchased parts may be commercially made, or handmade by someone else. It's all on a continuum, which makes it very difficult to draw lines.

In the end, they're all pens.


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## chriselle

Anything with the word "kit" in it is NEVER muttered outside of the IAP.  But amongst ourselves...meh...until one of you geniuseses...:wink: comes up with a better term I'm cool with it.


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## Jjartwood

Self Design ?


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## Holz Mechaniker

How about we use a term found in the custom automotive shops.  
A "One off Custom"


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## OKLAHOMAN

I've been one of the biggest naysayers of using the word kit in any fashion or form. I went so far as to calling them component-less but if you think of it they have components, a custom section, custom cap, custom body, in other words a custom pen, with components. So George  "Custom Pens", or even  just "Pens" but nothing with the words kit or less.


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## johncrane

I'm over the word kitless' every pen has parts,lets put it to bed and use (DESIGNER PEN) just my 2cents worth. i like Roy's too Custom pen


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## Linarestribe

I like rollerball, fountain or ballpoint the best.


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## Gary_Claus

I call all of my pens eccentric.

Definition:

"deviating from the recognized or customary character"


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## RustySplinters

As someone who has only made one "kitless" pen, I personally like the  term and trying to work towards the ultimate art form in lathe pen  making and creating a "kitless" pen.  

But I see where you are coming form.. it's become an arbitrary,  ambiguous, and overused term that can mean many different things.  

The problem is the word "kit".  We in IAP use it because it sets some  pens apart from others.  But it cheapens our pens in the thoughts of any  buyer!  Who would buy a pen made from a "paint by number" instruction  booklet.

Why not call them rollerballs, fountain pens, and ballpoints?  A sierra  style ballpoint or (as for kitless) a turtle fountain pen or HBR and  ebonite rollerball.  
Thats my $.05


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## keithbyrd

THis whole thing can be confusing to people - I like the idea of Custom Pens - each one to me is customized - shape, body materials, finial mods etc.  Many shows (I just tried to apply in 4) will not let you in if you use parts from kits!  I think getting away from the word kits is good but many venues we try to sell in uses or abuses it.


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## PenMan1

In the automotive world, including cars, trucks, motorcycles and boats, a "kit" automobile is perceived as much less valuable because it was built from a bag or box of "kit" parts. In fact, in our State, a "kit" car must go through rigorous testing and inspection before it can be licensed for the highway. About 3 in 10 "kit" automobiles make it through this process.

Even lower in the automotive world, is the "kitless" vehicle. Those who make the decisions on highway safety regard a "kitless" vehicle as one that is home made and doesn't use the box of "kit" parts that must comply with highway safety standards before they can be sold to "kit" car builders. Less than 1 in ten of these vehicles is ever cleared for highway use. Many potential buyers of these cool creations are hesitant of purchasing such a vehicle, simply because replacement of a part may require expensive custom fabrication.

On the other side of this equation, are the custom builders. Jessie James and OCC come immediately to mind in the motorcycle world, as does Summerset in custom Yachts. These builders get the very top market prices because they use industry standard parts and tooling, and comply with all highway safety standards. 

IMHO, OCC builds "kit" bikes, yet they command a premium price simply because their audience views them as custom builders.

Perhaps what you call your creation, as well as the standards used does affect/effect its perceived value in the market place.


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## Daniel

Good discussion, and one I consider well worth debating. I have used Custom, Hand made, and Hand Crafted when presenting my pens to customers. Never Kit, or Kitless
I don't even like the term Kit when talking shop on this group. I may buy a Kit to make a pen but after that the term Kit is lost.

I also like the detail of thought this issue is being given. Pen making, penturing has come a long way in the last 10 years as far as it's reputation among other crafts people. Many of the styles have become recognizable by the general public as well. To have something that stands out is something worth presenting with a lot of thought and care.

I have always like Custom but my ears are up as to soem of the other suggestions. Bottom line. Kitless has got to go even among those talking shop. I agree it served a purpose as it focused many to move away from the ready made components and the sheet of instructions on how to make a pen. But many are no longer kit building or even just pen turning. they are now into what I have always considered pen making.
I considered the 50 cal pen the first pen I truly "Made" now some suppliers offer a very poor representation of that in kit form. So be it that is life. I just hope many penturners eventually move away from that offering and attempt to make one from scratch. It is not about suppliers selling kits to me. it is about members of this group stretching themselves. And that effort deserves a distinguishing and respectable title.


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## wood-of-1kind

Very good discussions in this thread. However, I do sense that some of "us" get a little bit too "defensive" and "insecure" as we approach our target (customer) and somehow try to convey and receive acknowledgement from the work that we offer. Yes, we make pens and fine writing instruments but let's not get too full of ourselves and get overly sensitive to words and categories such as "kits", "component less kits", "customs" and any other deriviatives.

When all is said and done, we make pens that most are very happy to receive or to purchase from us. Let's keep on keepin' on...


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## Timebandit

But then what will call the new "Kitless " Kits that everyone is after these days. Seems everyone and there dog wants a "Kitless" kit, which to me is an oxymoron  First the word Kitless shouldnt be used, then turning Kitless into a kit....seems to be going backwards not forwards to me. I stopped using the word after my second one i think. Mine are just pens. They all use some sort of components.


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## IPD_Mr

Artisan crafted hand art.

Seriously it is a pen. Do you see major manufacturers using anything other than the design name? I can see the Pen World ad now:

Omas A Kitless Wonder


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## Carl Fisher

I see the term "kitless" as used only within our community of turners.  I don't think I would ever say kitless to a customer or even state that the others are from kits of any sorts.

As far as customers are concerned, these are ALL hand crafted pens/pencils/stylus/whatever


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## mpmopc

I have been referred to a pen maker, like a clock maker. I guess what it boils down to is I make pens, create pens, create fine writing pens. 
Phil


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## BRobbins629

Within the forum I actually think kit, modified kit and kitless are very appropriate descriptors.  When used, I know exactly what you are saying.  To think that this group could ever agree to using another common terminology is absurd.  That being said, whether I use a kit or not, I try to come up with a unique descriptive name for each pen I make.  So to answer you original question, I don't think kitless has outlived its usefulness any more than kit has.


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## IPD_Mr

Timebandit said:


> But then what will call the new "Kitless " Kits that everyone is after these days. Seems everyone and there dog wants a "Kitless" kit, which to me is an oxymoron


 
They are not asking for a kitless kit, they are asking for a kitless tool kit for beginners.  Big difference and quite a reaonable request for someone wanting to learn and venture towards this side of the craft.


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## jd99

How about craftsman's pens.

*I am a craftsman*, I can take raw material like steel and produce a precisley machined working tool, I can take wood and make a peice of fine furniture, I can make just about anything I need from what ever material I choose.

If I make a pen is it not a "Craftsman's Pen"?


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## Timebandit

IPD_Mr said:


> Timebandit said:
> 
> 
> 
> But then what will call the new "Kitless " Kits that everyone is after these days. Seems everyone and there dog wants a "Kitless" kit, which to me is an oxymoron
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They are not asking for a kitless kit, they are asking for a kitless tool kit for beginners.  Big difference and quite a reaonable request for someone wanting to learn and venture towards this side of the craft.
Click to expand...


I understand what people want and please dont start an argument over it. It is a reasonable request but still an oxymoron. And it was really a joke as to what they will now be called if "kitless" is removed. Thats what the rolled eyes little guy was for, to show sarcasm.

Edit: And just to add, others were wanting more than just a tool kit, they wanted feed and clips and things, so this is beyond a tool kit. Not that it would have happened that way, but many were pushing for something like that.


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## dow

The word "component" is defined as "a constituent part; element; ingredient." 

I make pens.  I make them out of components.  Some components are made by others and I purchase those components ready-to-use for my pens.  Some components are made by me from raw materials.  So it seems to me that it's as much a misnomer to call them "component-less" as it is to call them "kitless."  I make pens.  I sell pens.  I believe that I will call them "pens."


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## nativewooder

Good discussion!  Nice to see everyone able to discuss and not scream and throw things!:biggrin:


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## dow

nativewooder said:


> Good discussion!  Nice to see everyone able to discuss and not scream and throw things!:biggrin:



It's early yet. :biggrin:


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## Andrew_K99

Good discussion.

For me, the word 'kit' implies that there are going to be instructions to follow and if 10 people sat down and made one they'd all be relatively similar in final appearance.

For me, the word 'kitless' suggests that instructions don't exist and the final product is determined by builder.

For the purpose of the IAP I think both are relevant and accurately describes the process of making these pens.

In talking to a customer I would never use either kit or kitless to describe a pen. First kit makes it sound like anyone can do it and kitless, well, it just doesn't sound professional IMO.

AK


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## Displaced Canadian

nativewooder said:


> Good discussion!  Nice to see everyone able to discuss and not scream and throw things!:biggrin:



Oh really. I just sent a bag of dog doo doo to you and gave the UPS driver very specific instructions on what to do with it when you answer the door.


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## jd99

dow said:


> nativewooder said:
> 
> 
> 
> Good discussion! Nice to see everyone able to discuss and not scream and throw things!:biggrin:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's early yet. :biggrin:
Click to expand...

Yep I just went an got my helmet, just in case...... LOL :biggrin:


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## bitshird

George once again you show a degree of wisdom! I too agree with you.


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## Texatdurango

Displaced Canadian said:


> nativewooder said:
> 
> 
> 
> Good discussion!  Nice to see everyone able to discuss and not scream and throw things!:biggrin:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh really. I just sent a bag of dog doo doo to you and gave the UPS driver very specific instructions on what to do with it when you answer the door.
Click to expand...

We'll see what happens........ My cousin works for UPS and I got him to track your order and RETURN TO SENDER with instructions for the driver to sit it on the doorstep and light with match! :biggrin:


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## Texatdurango

From now on when showing a pen, I intend to just say..... "Here's a nice pen!" or "Here's one of my most magnificent creations that will surely make your jaws drop".... whichever is appropriate! :wink:


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## mredburn

I kind of like "a simple Pen" myself


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## PenPal

Why not show people with the words this is my latest pen.

So many times this is accompanied by sellers saying look how the grain matches etc etc.

When I buy products I ask the questions as a rule.

Certain items eg a box of matches, cheap, reliable, available, necessary.

Pens cheap available, necessary then purpose to use or impress settling an estate for family once the main Solicitor used what was to me a giant fountain pen then said sign here I was impressed, mind you he was supersized also.

Being natural during a sale time enhances the product that in itself should set itself apart in some way.

Anyway have fun lighten up I say works for me.

Kind regards Peter.


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## OKLAHOMAN

Now your talking, I'll make a salesman out of you yet!!!!!:biggrin: 





Texatdurango said:


> From now on when showing a pen, I intend to just say..... "Here's a nice pen!" or "Here's one of my most magnificent creations that will surely make your jaws drop".... whichever is appropriate! :wink:


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## Smitty37

PenMan1 said:


> In the automotive world, including cars, trucks, motorcycles and boats, a "kit" automobile is perceived as much less valuable because it was built from a bag or box of "kit" parts. In fact, in our State, a "kit" car must go through rigorous testing and inspection before it can be licensed for the highway. About 3 in 10 "kit" automobiles make it through this process.
> 
> Even lower in the automotive world, is the "kitless" vehicle. Those who make the decisions on highway safety regard a "kitless" vehicle as one that is home made and doesn't use the box of "kit" parts that must comply with highway safety standards before they can be sold to "kit" car builders. Less than 1 in ten of these vehicles is ever cleared for highway use. Many potential buyers of these cool creations are hesitant of purchasing such a vehicle, simply because replacement of a part may require expensive custom fabrication.
> 
> On the other side of this equation, are the custom builders. Jessie James and OCC come immediately to mind in the motorcycle world, as does Summerset in custom Yachts. These builders get the very top market prices because they use industry standard parts and tooling, and comply with all highway safety standards.
> 
> IMHO, OCC builds "kit" bikes, yet they command a premium price simply because their audience views them as custom builders.
> Perhaps what you call your creation, as well as the standards used does affect/effect its perceived value in the market place.


Hmmmm, last time I had my boat inspected it wouldn't have met very many highway safety standards[the brakes on boats are just awful]....now I am assuming here that yachts are still boats.:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:


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## Smitty37

*Been There Done that....*

I've been trying (most of the time I remember) to refer to 'kits' as component sets and to be frank, very few of my customers seem to agree - they still call them kits.

On the other hand, to the pen buying public, I would never use the word kit nor would I say kitless.  Kit to the general public means a box of plastic parts that you glue together and come out with a model of a 1932 Chevy convertible.  

You are selling a custom pen - where you got a particular part is of no consequence...unless you are making all of the parts yourself.  Then you might want to tell prospective buyers that.


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## Linarestribe

Has anybody or will anybody admit to using the word "kit-less" with a customer or is it just used here, between us?


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## PenMan1

You've got an old boat, Smitty. Many of the new boats (including Sea Doo PWCs) have brakes! Many of the newer, big boats are driven with joysticks, rather than steering wheels. These crafts can stop, and even hover in place in a swift current.

AND the NMMA (the waterway version of National Highway Safety Board) actually writes a specification for Marine braking systems Just saying....




Smitty37 said:


> PenMan1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> In the automotive world, including cars, trucks, motorcycles and boats, a "kit" automobile is perceived as much less valuable because it was built from a bag or box of "kit" parts. In fact, in our State, a "kit" car must go through rigorous testing and inspection before it can be licensed for the highway. About 3 in 10 "kit" automobiles make it through this process.
> 
> Even lower in the automotive world, is the "kitless" vehicle. Those who make the decisions on highway safety regard a "kitless" vehicle as one that is home made and doesn't use the box of "kit" parts that must comply with highway safety standards before they can be sold to "kit" car builders. Less than 1 in ten of these vehicles is ever cleared for highway use. Many potential buyers of these cool creations are hesitant of purchasing such a vehicle, simply because replacement of a part may require expensive custom fabrication.
> 
> On the other side of this equation, are the custom builders. Jessie James and OCC come immediately to mind in the motorcycle world, as does Summerset in custom Yachts. These builders get the very top market prices because they use industry standard parts and tooling, and comply with all highway safety standards.
> 
> IMHO, OCC builds "kit" bikes, yet they command a premium price simply because their audience views them as custom builders.
> Perhaps what you call your creation, as well as the standards used does affect/effect its perceived value in the market place.
> 
> 
> 
> Hmmmm, last time I had my boat inspected it wouldn't have met very many highway safety standards[the brakes on boats are just awful]....now I am assuming here that yachts are still boats.:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:
Click to expand...


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## Smitty37

PenMan1 said:


> You've got an old boat, Smitty. Many of the new boats (including Sea Doo PWCs) have brakes! Many of the newer, big boats are driven with joysticks, rather than steering wheels. These crafts can stop, and even hover in place in a swift current.
> 
> AND the NMMA (the waterway version of National Highway Safety Board) actually writes a specification for Marine braking systems Just saying....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PenMan1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> In the automotive world, including cars, trucks, motorcycles and boats, a "kit" automobile is perceived as much less valuable because it was built from a bag or box of "kit" parts. In fact, in our State, a "kit" car must go through rigorous testing and inspection before it can be licensed for the highway. About 3 in 10 "kit" automobiles make it through this process.
> 
> Even lower in the automotive world, is the "kitless" vehicle. Those who make the decisions on highway safety regard a "kitless" vehicle as one that is home made and doesn't use the box of "kit" parts that must comply with highway safety standards before they can be sold to "kit" car builders. Less than 1 in ten of these vehicles is ever cleared for highway use. Many potential buyers of these cool creations are hesitant of purchasing such a vehicle, simply because replacement of a part may require expensive custom fabrication.
> 
> On the other side of this equation, are the custom builders. Jessie James and OCC come immediately to mind in the motorcycle world, as does Summerset in custom Yachts. These builders get the very top market prices because they use industry standard parts and tooling, and comply with all highway safety standards.
> 
> IMHO, OCC builds "kit" bikes, yet they command a premium price simply because their audience views them as custom builders.
> Perhaps what you call your creation, as well as the standards used does affect/effect its perceived value in the market place.
> 
> 
> 
> Hmmmm, last time I had my boat inspected it wouldn't have met very many highway safety standards[the brakes on boats are just awful]....now I am assuming here that yachts are still boats.:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

 Referring to highway safety standards was the operative part of my reply. 

They put the SeaDoo in reverse I think that is more akin to down shifting a car than applying brakes. And while the SeaDoo is a watercraft, I am not sure I'd call it a boat, don't think I've evers seen them advertised as boats either but then I don't usually pay much attention to ads for them because while I have used them a few times I never really had any desire to own one - no good place to put the fish poles. 

Put any boat going forward in reverse it will slow down faster than if left in forward - I had to do that every time I tied up at my slip (I tied up bow to the pier).:biggrin:

I looked into kit cars many years ago and at that time most of them were just the body and needed the frame and drive train from a standard car.  I seem to remember that a lot of them used a Mustang frame but I'm not 100% sure about that - I was looking in the 70s but we had too many kids to be able to make a toy for me to putch around with.  They were not cheap.  There were a lot of problems getting one registered because of titling also because until the 60s there were no real standards to speak of regarding VIN numbers.


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## Dale Lynch

Linarestribe said:


> Has anybody or will anybody admit to using the word "kit-less" with a customer or is it just used here, between us?




I have never used the word"kit-less" but I used the word "kit" all the time whrn telling customers about my pens.It's not a big deal unless yoour dealing with a pen snob.My customers appreciate the straight talk over fluff.I tellthem what the body is,wether it be burl or truestone.I tell them the name of the pen style,also the company that made the components.I give them a general idea of how the peices are made.I don't know any trade secerets to be very specific.I also explain what I do to create the body for the kit.I have been asked a time or two if anyone can make them,since they are made from kits.I respond that yes anyone can learn to make them,you just need a lathe,chisels,mandrels,bushings,glue,sandpaper,polish,wood finish,wax,buffs,blanks,kits,etc.

Just sold a handful of pens and styluses to the nurses at the regional center and thay asked me to make more,even got a doctor who's interested in some when I make some more.I think I'll try and set him up with a desire.

Best wishes,Dale


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## BigShed

Carl Fisher said:


> I see the term "kitless" as used only within our community of turners.  I don't think I would ever say kitless to a customer or even state that the others are from kits of any sorts.
> 
> As far as customers are concerned, these are ALL hand crafted pens/pencils/stylus/whatever



I think that sums up my feelings exactly, I would never use the term "kitless" to a customer, nor do I ever refer to a pen as a "Sierra" or a "Baron" to a customer. I describe the pen for what it is and what it is made from and that it is made by a craftsman pen maker.
I haven't come across too many pen makers that make pens completely from scratch, who makes his own nibs, converters etc???

But within the IAP or other pen maker community "kitless" does get across what we are trying to convey.

Having said that all that, I don't like the term "kitless" either, so if someone can come up with an equally descriptive word that would be great.


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## GaryMGg

BRobbins629 said:


> Within the forum I actually think kit, modified kit and kitless are very appropriate descriptors. When used, I know exactly what you are saying.... I don't think kitless has outlived its usefulness any more than kit has.


 
Until such time as someone comes up with more appropriate terminology, I'm in agreement with the above.
For me, it's *more important* that we understand one another explicitly than it is we like the terms we use.

BTW, and in my opinion, some of the nicest "custom homes" built in the USA were Sears Craftsman kit homes. :wink:


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## MartinPens

I haven't made any "hand-threaded" or "self-threaded" pens yet. But I so agree with you and others, George. 

Custom works great. Custom Handcrafted is my favorite term; it adds a little more umph. Precison handcrafted is appropriate but could be used for many pens using components. 

I'm going to do my best to stop using the "K" word.  Lol. : )

Regards


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## Smitty37

GaryMGg said:


> BRobbins629 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Within the forum I actually think kit, modified kit and kitless are very appropriate descriptors. When used, I know exactly what you are saying.... I don't think kitless has outlived its usefulness any more than kit has.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Until such time as someone comes up with more appropriate terminology, I'm in agreement with the above.
> For me, it's *more important* that we understand one another explicitly than it is we like the terms we use.
> 
> BTW, and in my opinion, some of the nicest "custom homes" built in the USA were Sears Craftsman kit homes. :wink:
Click to expand...

 Few of us are aware of how common "packaged" homes used to be.  Even today you can still buy them - log homes in particular are very often "kits" as are geodesic dome homes.


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## Drstrangefart

My 2 cents for what it's worth: Kitless is just a convenient term to mean either no kit was used, or the original parts were completely modified into something else. Technically it may not be the most accurate, but it gets the point across. I would definitely use the word Custom for sales purposes, but for shop talk it's a useful term to have handy.


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## azamiryou

Linarestribe said:


> Has anybody or will anybody admit to using the word "kit-less" with a customer or is it just used here, between us?



I don't use "kit" or "kitless" when talking to customers or in any of my promotional information on- or off-line. On-line, though, I use "kitless" as a keyword tag, because some knowledgeable shoppers do use it. It's actually in the top ten search keywords used by my visitors.

Same goes for the kit names. I don't talk about them, but I make sure they're in my tags because some people search for them. And if someone knows they want a Navigator Roller Ball, I want them to be able to find pens I've made from Navigator components.


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## Linarestribe

azamiryou said:
			
		

> I use "kitless" as a keyword tag, because some knowledgeable shoppers do use it. It's actually in the top ten search keywords used by my visitors.
> 
> Same goes for the kit names.



I think this is a very good point as far as SEO goes. Thanks for sharing.


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## firewhatfire

Gosh I hope not.  I have yet to master it.  Call it whatever you want.  I am amazed at those of you who do it.  I hope to master it someday.

Phil


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## dansills

Linarestribe said:


> azamiryou said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I use "kitless" as a keyword tag, because some knowledgeable shoppers do use it. It's actually in the top ten search keywords used by my visitors.
> 
> Same goes for the kit names.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think this is a very good point as far as SEO goes. Thanks for sharing.
Click to expand...


Don't forget those searches could easily be (and probably are) other pen makers checking out your stuff (nobody does that right?)- I just can't see consumers searching for a jr retro, Sierra, cigar and etc ... Much less typing in a search for a "kit less" pen.  It made me feel stupid to type it just now!  I think I will do a search for a kit less knife real fast, perhaps a kitless billiard cue, maybe a kitless tool or even a kitless kit (that statement has actually been used many many times right here on this site in a prior post - what the hell is a kitless kit and when did we all forget what we learned in English class????).  Go ahead, google kitless kit and behold the geniuses that appear in the search results.  Us!  Right here on the IAP discussing kitless kits!!  While you are at google feel free to type in kitless p ... Allow google to show you suggestions after typing the "p". All those results  are from us talking about it, instructions on it and even making videos of the elusive kitless.  It is us pen makers searching for KITLESS - not consumers!!  A kitless _________ just sounds retarded.  We could fill in the blank with pretty much anything tangible and it will just never sound right! 

The reality is simple ... Consumable products require parts to build.  Sometimes those parts are sold individually and sometimes those parts are sold together.  Those parts could be made by an individual or by a company – doesn't really matter, we need parts (or kits, components, pieces, etc) to make our pens.   Re-read that - to MAKE our pens.  Are we really so naive to think someone cares how those parts get made and who made them?  Nope... Besides the fact, that rarely do we see a "kitless" pen where the finial doesn't look odd, maybe the clip, no clip at all, odd insert material, weird looking portable caps, etc... the list goes on forever.  Custom work?  Absolutely, no doubt that making a pen without using a kit is highly custom piece of art but none th less just that - custom.

IMO, we should all vow immediately to never say kitless again when speaking of our creations.  Let's just all make our own "custom pens"!!!!  We ALL do make CUSTOM pens ... some different levels of intricacy and ornate ness, yes but at the end of the day they are all just custom pens.

PS ... To start a seperate conversation: We all privately know that there is a hell of a lot more time, customization and dollar value in most of the segmented & scalloped pens here on this site (wiset ), they far exceed the customization of any "kit less" creation IMHO.


----------



## chriselle

dansills said:


> PS ... To start a seperate conversation: We all privately know that there is a hell of a lot more time, customization and dollar value in most of the segmented & scalloped pens here on this site (wiset ), they far exceed the customization of any "kit less" creation IMHO.



Ya...I'm afraid I can't go along with this sentiment either despite the fact that I have never done any segmenting of any kind.  Much respect to those who do excel at it.  A few of the pens I'm starting now will be done by...oh....next year sometime.


----------



## trapper

Well my thoughts are that the end product of our efforts is a pen pencil or indeed sometimes such things as laser pens pointer touch pens for pc etc. I've moved away from the kits as to be honest there seems only so much you can do based on the same chassis. i concentrate on pens based on rollerball or twists at the moment and apart from the refills and mechanisms make all of the components.
is this kitless after all once i made the bits i have a kit of parts to assemble. all a question of semantics i guess


----------



## Twissy

As far as my customers are concerned I refer to all of my kit type pens as custom pens....I take the component parts and customize a body to suit. For my kitless pens I refer to them as "bespoke" I designed them, and they are totally unique.

As far as this forum is concerned, kit and kitless acts as a good filter, for me. If I'm browsing SOYP and saw "abc123 kitless" I would definitely look at it. If I saw "abc123 Jr Gent" I may or may not look at it.

You say tomaytoes I say tomatoes!


----------



## glycerine

dansills said:


> Linarestribe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> azamiryou said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I use "kitless" as a keyword tag, because some knowledgeable shoppers do use it. It's actually in the top ten search keywords used by my visitors.
> 
> Same goes for the kit names.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think this is a very good point as far as SEO goes. Thanks for sharing.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Don't forget those searches could easily be (and probably are) other pen makers checking out your stuff (nobody does that right?)- I just can't see consumers searching for a jr retro, Sierra, cigar and etc ... Much less typing in a search for a "kit less" pen. It made me feel stupid to type it just now! I think I will do a search for a kit less knife real fast, perhaps a kitless billiard cue, maybe a kitless tool or even a kitless kit (that statement has actually been used many many times right here on this site in a prior post - what the hell is a kitless kit and when did we all forget what we learned in English class????). Go ahead, google kitless kit and behold the geniuses that appear in the search results. Us! Right here on the IAP discussing kitless kits!! While you are at google feel free to type in kitless p ... Allow google to show you suggestions after typing the "p". All those results are from us talking about it, instructions on it and even making videos of the elusive kitless. It is us pen makers searching for KITLESS - not consumers!! A kitless _________ just sounds retarded. We could fill in the blank with pretty much anything tangible and it will just never sound right!
> 
> The reality is simple ... Consumable products require parts to build. Sometimes those parts are sold individually and sometimes those parts are sold together. Those parts could be made by an individual or by a company – doesn't really matter, we need parts (or kits, components, pieces, etc) to make our pens. Re-read that - to MAKE our pens. Are we really so naive to think someone cares how those parts get made and who made them? Nope... Besides the fact, that rarely do we see a "kitless" pen where the finial doesn't look odd, maybe the clip, no clip at all, odd insert material, weird looking portable caps, etc... the list goes on forever. Custom work? Absolutely, no doubt that making a pen without using a kit is highly custom piece of art but none th less just that - custom.
> 
> IMO, we should all vow immediately to never say kitless again when speaking of our creations. Let's just all make our own "custom pens"!!!! We ALL do make CUSTOM pens ... some different levels of intricacy and ornate ness, yes but at the end of the day they are all just custom pens.
> 
> PS ... To start a seperate conversation: We all privately know that there is a hell of a lot more time, customization and dollar value in most of the segmented & scalloped pens here on this site (wiset ), they far exceed the customization of any "kit less" creation IMHO.
Click to expand...

 
Specifically pertaining to the IAP and pen making in general:
It's a natural progression.  Most of us started making pens (and other items) from sets of pre-packaged parts that we call "kits".  When one progresses to making said pens without the need of those "kits", it's natural to call them "kitless".  Here on the IAP, it's a quick and easy term to seperate those two categories of pens (those made by using "kits" and those made WITHOUT using "kits").  The term "custom" _on this forum_ isn't really a good descriptor because it's a given.  Pretty much all pens posted here and discussed here are custom made...


----------



## dansills

Texatdurango said:


> dansills said:
> 
> 
> 
> PS ... To start a seperate conversation: *We all privately know* that there is a hell of a lot more time, customization and dollar value in most of the segmented & scalloped pens here on this site (wiset ), they far exceed the customization of any "kit less" creation IMHO.
> 
> 
> 
> Speak for yourself, in my opinion, you don't know what you're talking about!
Click to expand...



Probably not... Excuse me for speaking.  I do apologize for stating what should be obvious ( I know it is to consumers) ... Set any custom "kitless" (maybe you can get lucky and it will have a clip at least) beside any custom scalloped and segmented kit pen with a high end plating.  Perhaps you will see the difference then ...if not then I recommend an appointment at the eye doctor.


----------



## Lenny

I simply like to call them "Fine Handcrafted Writing Instruments"


----------



## BSea

dansills said:


> Texatdurango said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dansills said:
> 
> 
> 
> PS ... To start a seperate conversation: *We all privately know* that there is a hell of a lot more time, customization and dollar value in most of the segmented & scalloped pens here on this site (wiset ), they far exceed the customization of any "kit less" creation IMHO.
> 
> 
> 
> Speak for yourself, in my opinion, you don't know what you're talking about!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Probably not... Excuse me for speaking.  I do apologize for stating what should be obvious ( I know it is to consumers) ... Set any custom "kitless" (maybe you can get lucky and it will have a clip at least) beside any custom scalloped and segmented kit pen with a high end plating.  Perhaps you will see the difference then ...if not then I recommend an appointment at the eye doctor.
Click to expand...

I know that some of the scalloped pens have been fantastic.  But from my experience (although limited) a custom "kitless" pen is more difficult & time consuming than a scalloped segmented kit pen.  Yes some "kitless" pens may seem rather plain in comparison to a fancy scalloped pen.  And I'm sure a few of the better scalloped pens take longer than a run of the mill (if there is such a thing) kitless.  But certainly not most.  I'm not trying to start an argument with you dansills, but unless I'm mistaken, you haven't made either a scalloped or a kitless.  You have made some nice segmented & closed ended pens.  And that's a good start on the way to the more complicated pens.  But it's just a start.

As far as dollar value, I really don't know.  Nor do I care.  I make pens because I enjoy making them.  And I enjoy trying new things.  And the most complicated pens I've made have been the kitless ones.


----------



## Curly

If someone does a fancy segmented and scalloped handcrafted custom kitless pen are we going to call them Seglessed Writing Instruments and elevate them to a position higher than other pens? :yawn:

To myself I think kitless. Selling, they are handcrafted, custom, or scratch built. Especially the latter if they have a bad nib.


----------



## Smitty37

*Hmmmmmmmm*

And folks accuse me of getting upset about "quality".......:biggrin:


----------



## IPD_Mr

BSea said:


> I make pens because I enjoy making them. And I enjoy trying new things.


 
Sometimes in all our zeal, that is the one thing that many loose sight of.   For many of us it is the most important aspect of this hobby.


----------



## glycerine

dansills said:


> Texatdurango said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dansills said:
> 
> 
> 
> PS ... To start a seperate conversation: *We all privately know* that there is a hell of a lot more time, customization and dollar value in most of the segmented & scalloped pens here on this site (wiset ), they far exceed the customization of any "kit less" creation IMHO.
> 
> 
> 
> Speak for yourself, in my opinion, you don't know what you're talking about!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Probably not... Excuse me for speaking. I do apologize for stating what should be obvious ( I know it is to consumers) ... Set any custom "kitless" (maybe you can get lucky and it will have a clip at least) beside any custom scalloped and segmented kit pen with a high end plating. Perhaps you will see the difference then ...if not then I recommend an appointment at the eye doctor.
Click to expand...

 
First of all, take a look at what the Gisi brothers do.  You seem to be under the assumption that a "kitless" pen cannot be segmented.
Secondly, what's highlighted in blue explains your statement highlighted in red.  It really all depends on your "consumers".  
As far as taking more time to make, heck, it took me less time to make my first herringbone 360 pen than it did to make my first kitless! 

In either case, none of this pertains to the original post...


----------



## jd99

Lenny said:


> I simply like to call them "Fine Handcrafted Writing Instruments"


:good:
Thats sorta what it says On my card "Fine Writing Instruments for the Unique Individual"


----------



## underdog

I don't use the word "kit" for the kit. I use the word "hardware" for the kit. Sounds more professional.

How about "bespoke" instead of "kitless"? Hmmmm?


----------



## Timebandit

Twissy said:


> For my kitless pens I refer to them as  "bespoke" I designed them, and they are totally unique.





underdog said:


> I don't use the word "kit" for the kit. I use the word "hardware" for the kit. Sounds more professional.
> 
> How about "bespoke" instead of "kitless"? Hmmmm?



Bespoke isnt good because it actually means made to a buyer's specification (personalized or tailored). The term historically was applied only to men's clothing and other apparel, implying measurement and fitting. 

The distinguishing points of bespoke are the buyer's total  control over the material used, the features and fit, and the way the  item should be made. More generally, "bespoke" describes a high  degree of "customization, and involvement of the end-user, in the production of the goods.

The word _bespoke_ itself is derived from the verb to _bespeak_, to "speak for something", in the specialized meaning "to give order for it to be made, so unless every single pen you make is made exactly to the customers specifications(which they might be) then they arent bespoke. Lots of people just make pens for fun and not for customers or sale, and these pens are not Bespoke pens. Custom, yes, bespoke no. Lets not start using other words improperly just to get rid of one we made up.


----------



## azamiryou

Here's a simple and logical system. 

When talking within the penmaker community, we have:


*kit *The major manufacturers/sellers call them "pen kits", and they aren't going to stop just for us. Whether or not they like it, every penturner knows this term.
*modified kit *Whether or not they've made one, most any penturner can easily understand what this means: a pen based on a kit, but not made entirely according to the kit directions.
*kitless *Once again, anyone familiar with a kit can figure out what this means even if they've never encountered the word before. The line between "kitless" and "modified kit" is a bit fuzzy, but so what?
When talking outside the penmaker community, we have:


*pen *Yep, they're all pens... and that's the part that's important to the customer.
The above is based on *communication*, which is what words are for in the first place. Anyone new to IAP can understand the terms and communicate with each other, without having to learn any new vocabulary. And on the customer side, you don't need explain to the customer what a pen "kit" is or how "kitless" is "better".


----------



## underdog

I wasn't aware of the real meaning of "bespoke". Thanks for the explanation Justin. 

How about that word "hardware" in place of "kit" then?


----------



## Glen Schumann

underdog said:


> I wasn't aware of the real meaning of "bespoke". Thanks for the explanation Justin.
> 
> How about that word "hardware" in place of "kit" then?


 
I also learned from the explanation of bespoke.

And I too have been trying to use hardware rather than kit (need more practice).


----------



## Texatdurango

You know, when I started this thread I was in hopes that several folks would chime in agreeing that the phrase "kitless" has indeed served it's purpose over the past few years and that we could move on and just start calling a pen a pen.  Instead all we're doing is once again trying to figure out the true definition of kitless or what phrase do we use to replace it.......... as if it needs replacing!

I still think "Here's a nice pen" would probably work 99% of the time.

I guess my whole point now as when I first started this thread was that I doubt seriously that there is one member here who can't tell at a glance whether a pen is made from a kit or from scratch and MORE IMPORTANTLY... DOES IT REALLY MATTER?

And IF there is that one person that can't tell kit from kitless and IF he or she asks what kit was used, I'm sure the pen maker would be glad to tell them what was used.

What amazes me is that we have had at least half a dozen of these "I'm right, your wrong",....." it's kit-less not kitless"....." you didn't make your own nib so it's still a kit"... blah, blah, blah....  And if you think about it, letting the phrase just fade away would actually stop further flair ups in the future.

I must admit,* I AM TOTALLY 100 PERCENT WRONG!*  I would have bet that the majority of members here would be happy for a fellow pen maker who was trying something new and different, having fun in the shop, but nope......... some just can't wait to jump in hollering FOUL because their isn't a clip on the pen or the pen looks plain and ugly with no bling or not hand crafting their own extra fine nib from a sheet of 18k gold so it TECHNICALLY isn't a true kitless.


----------



## IPD_Mr

Texatdurango said:


> I must admit,* I AM TOTALLY 100 PERCENT WRONG!* I would have bet that the majority of members here would be happy for a fellow pen maker who was trying something new and different, having fun in the shop, but nope......... some just can't wait to jump in hollering FOUL because their isn't a clip on the pen or the pen looks plain and ugly with no bling or not hand crafting their own extra fine nib from a sheet of 18k gold so it TECHNICALLY isn't a true kitless.


 
It is called jealousy!


----------



## GaryMGg

George,

When you originally posted this, I believed you were seeking everyone's opinions on the matter.
Was I mistaken?

Personally, I like terms which operationally define an object
--it's important to have a vocabulary wherein the body of knowledge about this craft can be shared appropriately.

I still remember some of the early segmented pens you posted on this forum because they were of such high quality craftsmanship for someone so new to penturning.
However, I also understood your "exactitude" came from having a long background both as, if memory serves me correctly, an engineer and a woodworker. 

I think there are definitely differences in pens:
there are differences in the quality of construction whether constructed from a
COTS package or made from scratch without using most or all the parts from a COTS package.
There is a difference in the quality of workmanship WRT matters such as
segmentation, fit of barrels to other parts, accuracy of centered drilling, quality of cut threads, the finish and more.

If these things didn't matter, none of us would strive to improve.

IMO, to eliminate the language which allows us to discuss these things and try to make all pens just another pen does the pen-turning community a disservice.

I'm not saying there has to be competition between folks NOR am I suggesting anyone should post negative things about others pens.
However, having a useful vocabulary to discuss the craft and being cordial about other folks work are not necessarily mutually exclusive constructs.

And, if someone wants only to hear "NP, GJ", that's fine too. That's their right. :biggrin:

CAVEAT: IF I ask for criticism, I'm sincerely asking for negative as well as positive feedback.
If I ask what someone thinks of my work, I must value their opinion enough to want their true opinion.


----------



## Twissy

Timebandit said:


> Twissy said:
> 
> 
> 
> For my kitless pens I refer to them as  "bespoke" I designed them, and they are totally unique.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> underdog said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't use the word "kit" for the kit. I use the word "hardware" for the kit. Sounds more professional.
> 
> How about "bespoke" instead of "kitless"? Hmmmm?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Bespoke isnt good because it actually means made to a buyer's specification (personalized or tailored). The term historically was applied only to men's clothing and other apparel, implying measurement and fitting.
> 
> The distinguishing points of bespoke are the buyer's total  control over the material used, the features and fit, and the way the  item should be made. More generally, "bespoke" describes a high  degree of "customization, and involvement of the end-user, in the production of the goods.
> 
> The word _bespoke_ itself is derived from the verb to _bespeak_, to "speak for something", in the specialized meaning "to give order for it to be made, so unless every single pen you make is made exactly to the customers specifications(which they might be) then they arent bespoke. Lots of people just make pens for fun and not for customers or sale, and these pens are not Bespoke pens. Custom, yes, bespoke no. Lets not start using other words improperly just to get rid of one we made up.
Click to expand...


You're quite right Justin, and I wasn't suggesting it be adopted, just what works for me. The majority of my kitlesssmile pens I sell are as the word implies to the customers requirements, i.e. they choose one of my designs but select the material and their nib requirements.
Cheers
John


----------



## Timebandit

Twissy said:


> Timebandit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Twissy said:
> 
> 
> 
> For my kitless pens I refer to them as  "bespoke" I designed them, and they are totally unique.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> underdog said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't use the word "kit" for the kit. I use the word "hardware" for the kit. Sounds more professional.
> 
> How about "bespoke" instead of "kitless"? Hmmmm?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Bespoke isnt good because it actually means made to a buyer's specification (personalized or tailored). The term historically was applied only to men's clothing and other apparel, implying measurement and fitting.
> 
> The distinguishing points of bespoke are the buyer's total  control over the material used, the features and fit, and the way the  item should be made. More generally, "bespoke" describes a high  degree of "customization, and involvement of the end-user, in the production of the goods.
> 
> The word _bespoke_ itself is derived from the verb to _bespeak_, to "speak for something", in the specialized meaning "to give order for it to be made, so unless every single pen you make is made exactly to the customers specifications(which they might be) then they arent bespoke. Lots of people just make pens for fun and not for customers or sale, and these pens are not Bespoke pens. Custom, yes, bespoke no. Lets not start using other words improperly just to get rid of one we made up.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You're quite right Justin, and I wasn't suggesting it be adopted, just what works for me. The majority of my kitlesssmile pens I sell are as the word implies to the customers requirements, i.e. they choose one of my designs but select the material and their nib requirements.
> Cheers
> John
Click to expand...


Hey John, i wasnt suggesting that you were suggesting that. You just mentioned it, and underdog suggested it. Call them what you will, but if your customer only choses a pen design that you already make, a material that you have and a nib that you have, doesnt make them "bespoke" either. They just chose from what you have. Having something"bespoke" is to have it greatly customized to fit you perfectly. Now if the customer chose a pen design that you make, but has large hands and would like it longer than you normally make this design, and wants more taper at the end, and he likes a front section from another one of your pen designs and wants that shape on this pen, and decides he wants a clip from a different design that you make, and he wants you to grind the medium nib to a broad, then it would be "bespoke". Now obviously he doesnt have to do all of these for it to be "bespoke", but there needs to be more than basic, this design, this material, this nib, the customer doent have much say in the pen this way. If you go into a suit shop and chose a tuxedo, and chose it in blue, and chose to have a white shirt under it, it isnt "bespoke". It is if you have the tailor measure you and make a suit that perfectly fits your body from head to toe. Just trying to get people to use words properly.:wink:


----------



## Texatdurango

Timebandit said:


> i wasnt suggesting that you were suggesting that. ....... Just trying to get people to use words properly.:wink:


I wasn't suggesting that he was suggesting that we were suggesting that you thought that they were suggesting that others should be suggesting that I should suggest........

*Good Grief........I'm getting dizzy!* Perhaps continuing to use the phrase kitless isn't such a bad idea after all, even though it's not a real word!

This message courtesy of Mt. View Rv park in Baker, Oregon!


----------



## Timebandit

Texatdurango said:


> *Good Grief........I'm getting dizzy!* Perhaps continuing to use the phrase kitless isn't such a bad idea after all, even though it's not a real word!
> 
> This message courtesy of Mt. View Rv park in Baker, Oregon!



George, you created this beast and now you are trying to kill it:biggrin: I stopped using it long ago and i know you and others did as well. Lets just let us not use it and those who want to use it use it. Im not trying to change it at this point. You will never get people to stop using a word that has been so accepted for so long. I really dont see the harm in people using it here.

I would join you in the RV park but my pinto is up on blocks


----------



## Dale Lynch

How bou usin the term (PWLK) pen with less kit?


----------



## IPD_Mr

Texatdurango said:


> This message courtesy of Mt. View Rv park in Baker, Oregon!


 

Someone called today asking about you and I thought you might have hit the road.  Good to know you are not "Road Kill".  Enjoy the weather up north, I hear Astoria, OR is a pretty neat town to visit.


----------



## glycerine

Texatdurango said:


> Timebandit said:
> 
> 
> 
> i wasnt suggesting that you were suggesting that. ....... Just trying to get people to use words properly.:wink:
> 
> 
> 
> I wasn't suggesting that he was suggesting that we were suggesting that you thought that they were suggesting that others should be suggesting that I should suggest........
> 
> *Good Grief........I'm getting dizzy!* Perhaps continuing to use the phrase kitless isn't such a bad idea after all, even though it's not a real word!
> 
> This message courtesy of Mt. View Rv park in Baker, Oregon!
Click to expand...

 
Ummmm... is "Texatdurango" a real word? :biggrin:


----------



## Timebandit

glycerine said:


> Texatdurango said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Timebandit said:
> 
> 
> 
> i wasnt suggesting that you were suggesting that. ....... Just trying to get people to use words properly.:wink:
> 
> 
> 
> I wasn't suggesting that he was suggesting that we were suggesting that you thought that they were suggesting that others should be suggesting that I should suggest........
> 
> *Good Grief........I'm getting dizzy!* Perhaps continuing to use the phrase kitless isn't such a bad idea after all, even though it's not a real word!
> 
> This message courtesy of Mt. View Rv park in Baker, Oregon!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Ummmm... is "Texatdurango" a real word? :biggrin:
Click to expand...


LOL.............hmmmmmmmm


----------



## Texatdurango

IPD_Mr said:


> Texatdurango said:
> 
> 
> 
> This message courtesy of Mt. View Rv park in Baker, Oregon!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Someone called today asking about you and I thought you might have hit the road.  Good to know you are not "Road Kill".  Enjoy the weather up north, I hear Astoria, OR is a pretty neat town to visit.
Click to expand...


Yes, we left sunny Arizona last week and are heading to Leavenworth, Wa, tomorrow where we will spend a week checking out all the local wineries and enjoying some nice food.

Baker, Or was supposed to be just a one night stop but after reading a little about the Oregon trail, we decided to stay another day and do some sight seeing today.


----------



## Smitty37

*Hmmmm*

Now will we be getting a travelog as a bonus?  I've never had a chance to visit that country.

For the word, lest substitute sanscoset.


----------



## Texatdurango

Smitty37 said:


> Now will we be getting a travelog as a bonus?  I've never had a chance to visit that country.
> 
> For the word, lest substitute sanscoset.



No travel log, for some reason my laptop just quit picking up wifi signals last week.  One day it was working fine then we changed rv parks and it wouldn't see a thing!

My phone and I-pad see the wifi signal fine so I am using the Ipad right now and I cant type worth a darn with it.

Its a different world surfing with a touchpad!

We forgot our camera but the IPad takes some spectacular Hi res photos so I carry it around now and then.


----------



## Displaced Canadian

We should talk. Leavenworth is only about 2 hours away and I've never been there. Perhaps I could head down there for lunch.


----------



## glycerine

Texatdurango said:
			
		

> No travel log, for some reason my laptop just quit picking up wifi signals last week.  One day it was working fine then we changed rv parks and it wouldn't see a thing!
> 
> My phone and I-pad see the wifi signal fine so I am using the Ipad right now and I cant type worth a darn with it.
> 
> Its a different world surfing with a touchpad!
> 
> We forgot our camera but the IPad takes some spectacular Hi res photos so I carry it around now and then.



Some laptops have a physical on/off switch for the wireless capability.  Does yours?  And could it have gotten switched off by mistake?  I've also had a laptop that would randomly turn off the wireless even though the physical switch was ON!  I would have to do the network troubleshooting and it would tell me that my wireless was off, do I want to turn it on...


----------



## Texatdurango

glycerine said:


> Texatdurango said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Some laptops have a physical on/off switch for the wireless capability.  Does yours?  And could it have gotten switched off by mistake?  I've also had a laptop that would randomly turn off the wireless even though the physical switch was ON!  I would have to do the network troubleshooting and it would tell me that my wireless was off, do I want to turn it on...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> no switch on this laptop.  If I try to troubleshoot, it tells me no signal detected and won't go any further.  I think I will wait until we go to Portland next week and see if it still acts up. Until then, there is wine to find and plenty to do and I am actually getting the hang of the ipad.
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