# Willing to go kitless, HELP! :)



## CharlesH (Oct 21, 2011)

Hey guys,

I want to go kitless, I am wondering where to start!?!

So far I figured out I needed the following:

"Collet Chucking System with 5 Collets"
"Keyless 1/2" #2 MT Chuck"

I  seen in others posts some information regarding taps and die. I am not  even sure what kind of feed I should be using? Is there a place where I  can buy the front section without buying the whole pen kit? Some people  suggested Victor Machinery for taps and dies. Did I miss any important  post? Any advice? It's mostly the nib assembly I cannot figure out, if  anyone has examples it would be great.

Here is the sizes I found in some posts:

M6.4x.5 - "C" - Schmidt Roller/Small Heritance/Small FP feeds
M8.4x.75 - "O" - Large FP feeds
M7.4x.5 - "J" - Meisternibs
M8.4x1 - "O" - Baron/Sedona/Navigator Front Ends
M8.5x1 - - Sierra Transmission
M8x.75 - Cigar nib and finial
M8x.5 - Cigar transmission
M6.4x.75 Jr Gent feed holder (measured but not tested)

Thanks for any information,

Charles


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## mredburn (Oct 21, 2011)

Charles I would advise you to get the taps and feeds for Bock from Roy, Or the feeds from Brian at Miester Nib and the taps from Indy Pen dance or myself. Indy has the 6.4x.5 I have several of the others . The 8.4 x 1 and 8.5 x1 are interchangeable there is enough slop in the parts that they both work. I have proof from Big shed that the 6.4x.75 do work. If your going to make feed assemblies/ front sections I would find the supplier you like and stick with him. Heritance will be fading awayat some time since he is no longer producing new product. Not that there isnt some amount of feeds and nibs still available but for the long run Roy Or Brian or Richard Greenwald would be my recomendations. 

I like the 10x.5 for the front section to the connector but some like the 10x.75 or 10x1 when using resins etc.

A picture of the front section the back outer diameters are m10x.5 and the inside it formed and taped to take a Miester Nib #6 feed assembly.  I thread a connector tha will accept the m10x.5
and is glued into the tube. You can just thread the pen body if your not using tubes. If yo0u thread the resin pen body you may want to use a coarser thread like the m10x .75 or the m10x1


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## Russianwolf (Oct 21, 2011)

the front section for the El Grande is supposed to be available by itself (nib, feed and grip) from several places. It uses the M10x1 tap.


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## CharlesH (Oct 21, 2011)

Thanks for the replies guys,

Let's say I wanna buy a front section to start off this adventure. I am interested in El Grande and the Churchill (which are the same).

So I need a M10x1 tap to fit the front section to the pen section and I assume it is not recommended to thread wood?

Now for the cap, what other tap/die I would need?

Thanks,

Charles


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## nsfr1206 (Oct 21, 2011)

12 mm?


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## Lenny (Oct 21, 2011)

CharlesH said:


> Thanks for the replies guys,
> 
> Let's say I wanna buy a front section to start off this adventure. I am interested in El Grande and the Churchill (which are the same).
> 
> ...


 
That would be the big expensive one I think! 
The one from the group buy M12 x .8  triple start .... (or perhaps the M14 x ? )


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## CharlesH (Oct 21, 2011)

Hahaha, wow I am totally lost, well. Is there a way of starting kitless/semi-kitless pens without breaking the bank anyway?

Charles



Lenny said:


> CharlesH said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks for the replies guys,
> ...


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## mredburn (Oct 21, 2011)

You dont have to start with the triple lead taps although you can. A good start is the 12 x.75 or 12x.1 I thread the wooden rollerballs I make with the m12 x .75. If you want to make a larger diameter barrel and you dont want a large stepdown you might try the 14mm x 1. YOU can start with the triple taps if thats where you think you will end up but they start at $120. a set and the single point taps from Victor machinery start around $10.00


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## avbill (Oct 22, 2011)

Charles,

M6.4x.5 - "C" - Schmidt Roller/Small Heritance/Small FP feeds

Charles I'm following this trend closely, as I want to go in the kitless direction also.  In the above writing from you you have "C"  Is this referring to the drill size?  

thanks  bill


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## CharlesH (Oct 22, 2011)

I would assume yes.

Charles



avbill said:


> Charles,
> 
> M6.4x.5 - "C" - Schmidt Roller/Small Heritance/Small FP feeds
> 
> ...


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## cnirenberg (Oct 22, 2011)

Charles,
For the cap a 1/2x20 will work. If you cut the tenon down after threading it, you can get a 1-2 turn close, no problem.


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## mredburn (Oct 22, 2011)

I use the C drill bit for the 6.4x.5 taps.


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## drgoretex (Oct 23, 2011)

I guess the questio I have is whether you are planning to go get completely kitless, or still use kit parts.  If the former, you would need to be making your own thread inserts out  of maybe acrylic to put into the barrel and cap.  That would involve a whole lot more tooling and process, of course.

However, being you mention using a premade front section (go to Berea Hardwoodsand you can buy the nib/feed/front section units that are the same as those in the ElGrande), I am assuming that you are not averse to using kit parts - this may be the best way to start  anyway.  If that is the case, you won't need any tap at all, just use the El Grande thread inserts, and turn closed end barrel and cap.

Now, if you plan on doing it more kitless, but using the El Grande front sections, you will need the M10 x 1 tap to thread inside the barrel to accommodate the El Grande front section.  To do this, you will need to create an acrylic insert to fit into the end of your wood barrel.  The inside thread of this insert would be M10 x 1, then choose an outside thread for the barrel-to-cap thread.  M12 was mentioned, and would work fine (though I think 20 tpi was mentioned, and I find 20 tpi a bit too coarse with higher risk of breakage of the insert wall when cutting the thread), but I generally use a 1/2" x 28 die for the outside thread on the barrel.  Then the cap would need another acrylic insert to take the inside 1/2 x 28 thread.

Then again, if you decide to make your own front section, you will need one of those specialty taps, like the M6.4 x 0.5 or 0.75, or the M7.4 x 0.5, or the M8.4 x 1 etc to accommodate one of the more commonly available nib units.  Then you would also need both tap and die for the outside thread on the front section, be it M10 x 1 or another.

OK, enough for now.  My wife's getting mad. 

Cheers,

Ken


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## JAZNCARR (Oct 23, 2011)

*hello... help... helicopter!*

That's enough words that start with hel.  
Im not terribly. Clear on what a triple start tap is?   Does this Do 3 motions at once?


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## lorbay (Oct 23, 2011)

JAZNCARR said:


> That's enough words that start with hel.
> Im not terribly. Clear on what a triple start tap is?   Does this Do 3 motions at once?



This will explain the 3 start treading.
http://www.penturners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=87727

Lin.


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## Lenny (Oct 23, 2011)

JAZNCARR said:


> That's enough words that start with hel.
> Im not terribly. Clear on what a triple start tap is? Does this Do 3 motions at once?


 
In use it doesn't act any different but what it does is allow the threading to start in three different places .... so you don't have to get it in the exact position before it catches the thread. Not sure if that's a good explaination ... but I tried!


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## mredburn (Oct 23, 2011)

Its hard to accuratly describe but a standard tap cuts 1 continous thread (lead) around the part your threading. A triple lead cuts 3 threads at once, the threads run side by side like a three lane road around your part. Each thread drops three rows as they are cut around the part with each rotation . This allows the cap to be threaded on and off with a shorter twisting motion. so instead of 4 or 5 turns or more to take your cap off the pen it may be 1 to 2 turns at the most.


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## Curly (Oct 24, 2011)

Look at the cap and barrel on a Jr. Gent, Cambridge, Jr. Majestic or some of the other kit pens you will find they have triple or quadruple start threads. Hold the barrel and rotate the cap backwards and you will find each thread start as the cap drops a little.


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## CharlesH (Oct 26, 2011)

Thanks for all the replies guys it's getting clearer! ;-) 

C

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S2.


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## JAZNCARR (Oct 26, 2011)

*as always*

As always. Thank you gentlemen...


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## firewhatfire (Oct 26, 2011)

I am trying to keep up with this also.  Confusion runs through my head wide open.


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