# Fountain Pen Kits and refills



## crokett (Jun 7, 2019)

I have a co-worker who likes fountain pens.  I want to make him one.  I 'borrowed' one of his pens yesterday and looked at the refill.  All I can see on it is "Duke Germany".  I was not able to take a picture without getting caught.   I'd prefer to find a pen kit that uses the same type refill he uses - he has two pens like this.  After some searching, I am not sure what refills will be compatible.    I have made a few fountain pens in the past, they use the  refills that are the small cartridge type.  I have had problems with the ink flow on those - I have one that I don't use much because of this.   What style refill/pen kit am I looking for to match what he has?  If I use a different one, what is recommended that isn't the cartridge style refill?


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## mecompco (Jun 7, 2019)

I think they are pretty universal. I toss the poor little ones that come with the kits and replace them with full-sized Watermans. As long as the pen has room for the full-sized refill, it should work.


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## monophoto (Jun 7, 2019)

Are you intending to do a kit or a kitless pen?  The reason for that question is that most (and probably all) fountain pen kits are designed around the so-called 'international standard'' cartridge/converter system.  Using international standard components gets around issues of compatibility with proprietary systems offered by single manufacturers.

If you are doing kitless, you could also do international standard, but at least in theory you could also design the pen to accept proprietary cartridges or converters from one of the major pen manufacturers.  Frankly, I don't see the point in doing that - international standard gives the user far more flexibility in the choice of cartridges, and  converters allow the user to draw from the almost infinite selection of inks in bottles.  And proprietary stuff tends to be more expensive.

Duke is actually a Chinese pen manufacturer who use the international standard system.  The notation 'Germany' may be misleading - it could mean that some components come from Germany (Schmidt is a German company that makes nibs and converters used in many higher-quality pen kits).  But it could also be exaggerated advertising.  For example, you will find a number of pen kits from China with nibs that are marked 'Irridium Point, Germany'.  Irridium is a very hard metal that used to be used as the tipping material on fountain pen nibs, and the best quality nibs supposedly came from Germany.  So some low-end Chinese pen manufacturers mark their nibs as 'Irridum Point - Germany' to claim that quality heritage.

There are a few other options (eyedropper designs, piston-fillers, etc), but they are only practical if you are machining the pen body from plastic, and aren't available in kit form.

So my suggestion is to look for the following in the kit you plan to use:

International standard cartridge/converter, but be sure to provide a converter with the pen so the recipient can use bottled ink.  Not all kits come with converters, so you might have to purchase that separately.  And if there is a choice of converter quality, get the best that is available.
Critical components (nib and feed, cartridge/converter) from a recognized manufacturer such as Schmidt
Cap attaches to the body via a threaded fitting.  Many fountain pen kits use a 'snap cap' which is really chintzy and doesn't last very long.  In addition, they are a real pain to assemble, and pens made with snap caps tend to dry out faster than pens with screw caps.
The portion of the cap that screws onto the body covers the end of the turning (this is a sublety - there are a lot of fountain pen kits - especially those with snap caps - where the raw end of the turning is exposed when the cap is removed.)


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## crokett (Jun 7, 2019)

monophoto said:


> Are you intending to do a kit or a kitless pen?




I am doing a kit.  Is something like this the standard system?









						Collectible Pen Ink Refills & Cartridges for sale | eBay
					

Get the best deals on Collectible Pen Ink Refills & Cartridges when you shop the largest online selection at eBay.com. Free shipping on many items | Browse your favorite brands | affordable prices.



					www.ebay.com


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## budnder (Jun 7, 2019)

Not sure if you had seen this post, but it discusses some of the kits available:

https://www.penturners.org/threads/best-mid-range-budget-fountain-pen-kits.151150/

I wouldn't suggest you worry about this if you're new to fountain pens, but be aware there's a lot of tweaking/tuning/replacing of the nib that comes with kit by the fountain pen using crowd.


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## crokett (Jun 10, 2019)

mecompco said:


> I think they are pretty universal. I toss the poor little ones that come with the kits and replace them with full-sized Watermans. As long as the pen has room for the full-sized refill, it should work.



Are these the refills?  






						Amazon.com : Waterman Standard Long Cartridges for Fountain Pens, Intense Black, Box of 8 (S0712991) : Gateway
					

Amazon.com : Waterman Standard Long Cartridges for Fountain Pens, Intense Black, Box of 8 (S0712991) : Gateway



					www.amazon.com
				







monophoto said:


> So my suggestion is to look for the following in the kit you plan to use:
> 
> International standard cartridge/converter, but be sure to provide a converter with the pen so the recipient can use bottled ink.  Not all kits come with converters, so you might have to purchase that separately.  And if there is a choice of converter quality, get the best that is available.
> Critical components (nib and feed, cartridge/converter) from a recognized manufacturer such as Schmidt
> ...



I have done a few fountain pens before, all kits.  I learned I don't like the snap cap ones and only do screw cap kits.    My biggest issue is the small cartridge refills.  I want something better.  I'm not up to the level of kitless yet.  Someday, but not now.   I am looking at the churchill kits and researching whether they will take a full size refill or a converter


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## Curly (Jun 10, 2019)

Churchill comes with a converter. In the olden days it was a Schmidt converter. Not sure about now. I don't know what the length is for the long cartridges so can't say if they fit or not. The short international cartridges are available in good quality inks like Private Reserve, Hebrin, Monteverde et cetera. They just don't have the capacity of the bigger cartridges but are more common.


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## monophoto (Jun 10, 2019)

To add to Pete's comments:

A 'standard short international cartridge' holds about 0.87ml of ink.   A 'standard international converter' hold about the same volume of ink and therefore will yield about the same amount of writing.  However, ink in bottles is far less expensive than ink in cartridges.  For example, Goulet Pen Company (a large on-line supplier of pens and inks, and great people to do business with), sell a box of Diamine Saphire Blue ink cartridges for $8.50.  That's 47.2 cents per cartridge, or 54.9 cents per ml.  They sell the same ink in a 30ml bottle for $7.50, or 25 cents per ml.  So the operating cost is much lower with bottled ink and a converter compared with cartridges., and there is a possibility of a far broader selection of ink colors and characteristics to choose from in bottles.   On the other hand, cartridges are easier to pack for travel than a bottle of ink, and can be less messy.

Diamine is a very good ink made in England and about the middle of the pack in pricing - there are less expensive inks (Noodler's is a brand of American made inks that offers an extremely broad selection of colors and characteristics, but only in bottles, and most varieties sell for about 15 cents per ml).  Pilot Namiki, a Japanese company, has inks that sell for as much as 40 cents per ml in bottles. Interestingly, the difference in pricing is often more related to the elegance of the packaging; Pilot bottles are beautiful and custom made, while Noodlers uses standard commodity-grade laboratory sample bottles for their product.

There are also proprietary cartridges  that have different volumes, and also the relatively rare 1.66ml  'standard long international cartridge' that fits a few commercially-made pens.    As far as I know, all kit pens use either 'standard short international cartridges' or standard international converters.  Some commercial pens can hold either a converter, a long cartridge, or two short cartridges, one in use and one spare.

Pete mentioned Private Reserve.  Unfortunately, Private Reserve is struggling.  They were known for some excellent, highly-saturated inks at reasonable prices.  However, the owner of the company died, and there was a period of several years when the business was in limbo.  There is now a new owner who is trying to get the business re-established, but the reports I've read suggest that there are still problems.

This suggests one other factor - some ink manufacturers are also pen manufacturers, and are fairly large.  However, some, such as Private Reserve and Noodlers', are classic small businesses.  Noodler's, for example, is one guy who makes small batches of ink in the basement of his home in South Dartmouth, MA.  The inks are innovative - highly saturated colors, and interesting characteristics (including highly permanent inks, inks that won't freeze in the winter, and inks that glow in response to UV light), but there can be inconsistency between batches, and supply backlogs are fairly common.

Probably more than you wanted to know - - - but still just scratching the surface of the fascinating subject of fountain pens and inks


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## mecompco (Jun 11, 2019)

I've put the full length Waterman's in Atrax, Jr. Gent, etc. If you don't shorten the lower tube, there is all sorts of room in these kits. Most other FP kits look pretty similar in length.


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## ed4copies (Jun 11, 2019)

You are making the pen.  If you want it to hold a larger cartridge, make the body longer!!!
When you sell it, you can honestly say YOU IMPROVED the design and WHY you did that--DIFFERENTIATE YOURSELF!!!


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## monophoto (Jun 11, 2019)

Further to Michael and Ed's comments -

Obviously, if you are making a kitless pen, you can make the barrel as long or short as  you want.  Whether you have as much flexibility with a kit depends on the model you are using and your skills as a turner, and also on why you want to make the pen longer.  

I just did a few measurements on some random pens on my desktop. A standard international converter requires a barrel depth of 74.2mm (including the threads where the section screws into the barrel).  If a kit comes with a converter, then one can assume that the standard construction of that pen will provide enough depth to accept that converter.

A standard short international cartridge is 37 mm long.  As I mentioned, some commercial pens are designed to allow the user to store a spare cartridge in the bottom of the barrel.   This is not universally the case - I have one pen (a J. Herbin rollerball) that uses standard short international cartridges, but isn't longer enough to either accept a converter or to store a spare cartridge.

I have a couple of kit pens that were turned with 'closed ends', and its possible to store a second cartridge in them.  But I also have another pen that has a decorative metal finial/cap on the end of the barrel that has a smaller diameter than the main portion of the barrel, and when I tried putting a second cartridge in it, it got stuck in that narrow section and wouldn't come back out.  Fortunately, I was doing the test using an empty cartridge, and was able to get it out by jamming an awl into the cartridge to pull it out.   

Accommodating cartridges or converters other than standard international is another matter.  A standard Waterman cartridge is 67.6mm long.  The diameter is about the same as the international, so it obviously has greater ink capacity.  A Waterman converter is 71mm long.  My Waterman pen has a barrel depth of 74mm so that either the cartridge or converter fits comfortably.  Shaeffer cartridges are 71.7mm long, while Cross cartridges are 41.8mm long.

But the real issue is attaching the either a cartridge or converter to the section -  in most cases, this is a friction nipple, with a plastic female coupling that slips over a male extension at the end of the section .  Obviously, that connection must be snug to avoid leakage.  Here are my measurements of the cartridge (female) portion of this fitting for various cartridges -

Waterman:   OD of the outer ring - 5.02mm;  ID - 3.1mm; wall thickness - 1.15mm
International:  OD of the outer ring - 4.26mm; ID - 3.55mm; wall thickness - 0.33mm
Shaeffer:  OD 0f the cartridge - 7.39mm; OD of the male extension from the section - 2.26mm
Cross:  OD of the outer ring - 4.74mm; ID - 3.2mm; wall thickness - 0.89mm

This information confirms my longstanding understanding that proprietary and standard cartridges aren't interchangeable.

It also strikes me that because these components are tiny, and there is no way to tighten the female portion onto the male portion, it is critical that there be enough friction to provide a seal to prevents leaks.  That suggests that material aging and fatigue could eventually lead to failure of that nipple fitting.  Cartridges are meant to be disposable, but some people do refill them using a syringe.  It also suggests that converters  may also experience wearout, especially if they are physically removed from the section frequently.   I've never had a nipple coupling on a cartridge or converter fail, but there's a first time for everything.

Incidentally, some proprietary cartridges and converters are threaded and designed to screw onto the back of their matching section.    I have a Mont Blanc pen from the early 1990's that was originally equipped with a friction fit section.  However,  I sent back to the factory for refurbishment, and  when it was returned to me it had a new section and a new threaded converter.


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## crokett (Jun 16, 2019)

I bought two Churchill kits as a test.  I made one this weekend.  I was going to give it away but it writes so nicely I am thinking of keeping it.    The Churchill will be my go-to kit moving forward.


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