# Kitless penmaking tool list



## Parson (Sep 21, 2011)

If someone could post one for me below, I'd be grateful. I have a lathe, drill press, band saw, table saw, bench combo sander, drill, etc.

What I need are the specific tools (tap and die set, etc.) that you kitless guys use...

Also, what materials would you avoid when first learning how to make kitless pens? I heard PR is really brittle. What's the most forgiving material?


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## WIDirt (Sep 21, 2011)

*Kitless toolbox*

I second this request, Please!


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## joefyffe (Sep 21, 2011)

PR usually turns like butter. Inlace Acrylester is more brittle. Tru-Stone and M3 metals are a little costly for the learning experience(s). I'm getting ready to venture into the kitless arena, also, and have cast some PR blanks about 9 or 10 inches long. This should be enough for the cap, bbl, and section.


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## BRobbins629 (Sep 21, 2011)

At a minimum you need one of these

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HA6fZ_igZKE&feature=share


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## hewunch (Sep 21, 2011)

Collet Chuck
Drill Chuck
Die Holder
Taps and Dies
Pam

Materials to try
Acrylic Acetate (mass produced blanks available at suppliers)
Water Pipe (if you can find it being installed, you can get a bunch for free/cheap)
Nylatron


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## Russianwolf (Sep 21, 2011)

BRobbins629 said:


> At a minimum you need one of these
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HA6fZ_igZKE&feature=share



DANG IT BRUCE!!!!!!!

Now I have to start counting my pennies to see if I have enough.....

1......2......3......4.......5..................................................................

I'm going to be here a while I think.


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## Timebandit (Sep 21, 2011)

BRobbins629 said:


> At a minimum you need one of these
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HA6fZ_igZKE&feature=share



And this is a minimum!! This is the first tool i got when i started kitless, and now have 2 and shop full of other tools!!:biggrin:


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## MarkD (Sep 21, 2011)

BRobbins629 said:


> At a minimum you need one of these
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HA6fZ_igZKE&feature=share



I got one of those so I could start making kitless pens 
Could someone come over and show me how to drill a hole with it :laugh:


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## BKelley (Sep 21, 2011)

I don't want to start a long discussion, but Pam is not a good substance in the shop. Pam will solidify and freeze up machinery bad.  In my working days I serviced kitchen equipment.  The personel in School kitchens would use Pam to lubricate sliceing machine ways and freeing one up to be serviceable again was a pain in the rear.
There are many other lubricants available that do a much better job.  Like I said, don't want to start a long discussion, this is just some thing I have observed over the years.


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## mredburn (Sep 21, 2011)

I would recommend aluminum to start with. 
I use the following taps/dies regularly 
10 x .5 
10x1
12x.75
those are available through Victor machinery or their US equivalents. 3/8 and 7/16 in fine threads will work. 




specialty taps 
7.4x.5
8.4x1
6.4x.5
6.5x.75
These are for the nib feed assemblies and you wont need a die. Buy them as you need them.

m12 x.8 -3 leads tap and die set
m14x 1- 3 leads tap and die set.
These two are very expensive and you probably should wait until you have progressed enough to justify the expense.


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## cwolfs69 (Sep 21, 2011)

darn thing makes them almost as fast you guys here do.


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## joefyffe (Sep 21, 2011)

Nah!  I've got two of them.  He can borrow one of mine!  :laugh:





BRobbins629 said:


> At a minimum you need one of these
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HA6fZ_igZKE&feature=share


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## Dan_F (Sep 22, 2011)

Well, you need this stuff...http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=V6ic1jvaoiU

And then some of this stuff...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STJObFq7MGg&feature=rec-HM-fresh+div

Seriously, outside of the appropriate tap and dies, the main thing I couldn't do without is my collet chuck and assortment of metric collets. 

Material wise, basic acrylic blanks seem to be the friendliest materials to thread, PR is often reported as problematic as far as threading. Ebonite is thread friendly as well, but more expensive and has what most feel is an unpleasant odor.

Dan


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## cnirenberg (Sep 22, 2011)

I never get tired of watching these.  


Dan_F said:


> Well, you need this stuff...http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=V6ic1jvaoiU
> 
> And then some of this stuff...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STJObFq7MGg&feature=rec-HM-fresh+div
> 
> ...


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## Texatdurango (Sep 22, 2011)

Parson said:


> .....What I need are the specific tools (tap and die set, etc.) that you kitless guys use...
> 
> Also, what materials would you avoid when first learning how to make kitless pens? I heard PR is really brittle. What's the most forgiving material?


 
Well they say a photo is worth a thousand words so here is what I would suggest in the way of tools...... 








Seriously, Mike had a good assortment of taps and dies, I would start with those and forget about buying whole sets. Victor tools http://victornet.com/reference/Tap_Drill.html has an excellent assortment of taps and dies at reasonable prices.

As far as material to practice on, I would suggest visiting US Plastics http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?itemid=24128&catid=440 and buying some of their clear acrylic rod. I use this when I start a new prototype because it's dirt cheap compared to "pen blanks", it allows me to see what's going on inside when I'm drilling and tapping and looking for clearances. Actually anytime I want to experiment with anything I grab a clear acrylic rod to work on rather than waste a good blank.


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## MarkD (Sep 22, 2011)

Texatdurango said:


> As far as material to practice on, I would suggest visiting US Plastics http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?itemid=24128&catid=440 and buying some of their clear acrylic rod. I use this when I start a new prototype because it's dirt cheap compared to "pen blanks", it allows me to see what's going on inside when I'm drilling and tapping and looking for clearances. Actually anytime I want to experiment with anything I grab a clear acrylic rod to work on rather than waste a good blank.



George, what size clear acrylic rod would you suggest? I was thinking that 5/8" or 3/4" should be large enough for any pen.


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## Texatdurango (Sep 22, 2011)

BKelley said:


> I don't want to start a long discussion, but Pam is not a good substance in the shop. Pam will solidify and freeze up machinery bad.......


 
Ben has a good point, PAM or the Brand X that I use will solidify.  I had a can that started leaking so I poked a hole in and drained out the liquid into a lidded cup with a hole in the middle for a cotton swab.  I'd dip the swab in and wipe a bit of oil on a tenon before cutting threads with a die or dab a bit on a tap.  It works great for a cutting lubricant, but I wouldn't use it for anything else.  Rather than wiping my hands of my pants (as usual)... I just lick my fingers!  Canola tastes great! :biggrin:


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## Texatdurango (Sep 22, 2011)

MarkD said:


> Texatdurango said:
> 
> 
> > As far as material to practice on, I would suggest visiting US Plastics http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?itemid=24128&catid=440 and buying some of their clear acrylic rod. I use this when I start a new prototype because it's dirt cheap compared to "pen blanks", it allows me to see what's going on inside when I'm drilling and tapping and looking for clearances. Actually anytime I want to experiment with anything I grab a clear acrylic rod to work on rather than waste a good blank.
> ...


 
I use 1/2" and 5/8" more than any other sizes.  I have 3/4" but rarely use it.  We have been accustomed to using 3/4" just because that's the size almost everyone sells pen blanks in.  But when you start making your own pens and the final lower body diameter is 1/2" for example, why start with 3/4" and waste your time and material turning it down to the size you want.  

As a first "hand crafted" pen try a lower body diameter of 1/2" and a cap of 5/8" and see how you like it.


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## mredburn (Sep 22, 2011)

One of my standard Outside diameters on my pens is .511 for the lower and .570 for the upper. reall close to the 1/2 and  5/8 George recomends.


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## Dan_F (Sep 22, 2011)

Nice setup George.

One thing that will be absolutely necessary that I forgot to mention is a decent dial caliper to measure parts.

Dan


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## Kaspar (Sep 23, 2011)

mredburn said:


> I would recommend aluminum to start with.
> I use the following taps/dies regularly
> 10 x .5
> 10x1
> ...



Out of curiosity, what do you use the above taps for?  I think I can guess about the M10s but the M12 size is a puzzle to me.


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## Dalecamino (Sep 23, 2011)

Kaspar said:


> mredburn said:
> 
> 
> > I would recommend aluminum to start with.
> ...


 The M12 is for the threads to attach the cap to the lower body. M14 for the larger size pens.


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## Kaspar (Sep 23, 2011)

dalecamino said:


> Kaspar said:
> 
> 
> > mredburn said:
> ...



Ah, yes, on the assumption one does not have the 3x start M12 already.  Got it.  Thanks!

And the M10s are for fitting sections together, I'd assume.


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## soligen (Sep 23, 2011)

I M10x1 is if you want to use a section from a churchill/el Grande kit.  If not, I perfer M10 x .75 for section threads.

Also, if you want a threaded nosecone (not required) for a rollerball, I use M8 x.75 (same thread as a cigar nose cone)

So my list is:

M12 x .8 triple start (low cost is M12 x .75 single start) for cap
M10 x .75 for section
M8 x .75 for nose cone
Tap that matches FP feed holder. For this size pen i perfer the small nibs that use M6.4 x .5


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## Parson (Sep 23, 2011)

Timebandit wrote:



> And this is a minimum!! This is the first tool i got when i started kitless, and now have 2 and shop full of other tools!!:biggrin:



Are you telling me that the kitless pens you're making are done on a computer-driven lathe like the one in the youtube video above?

I'm not interested in this. I just want to make them by hand...


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## Parson (Sep 23, 2011)

All this info is really great, but I really do need a video tutorial or someone to invite me to their shop one weekend to watch them make a kitless pen by hand... 

I'm willing to fly anywhere and even pay the person for their time and I'll stay in a hotel nearby and rent a car if I have to fly into the town to watch the process.

The time and money and aggravation it would save me is worth the expense. PM me if you would be interested in showing me how you make a kitless pen.


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## TomW (Sep 23, 2011)

Parson said:


> All this info is really great, but I really do need a video tutorial or someone to invite me to their shop one weekend to watch them make a kitless pen by hand...
> 
> I'm willing to fly anywhere and even pay the person for their time and I'll stay in a hotel nearby and rent a car if I have to fly into the town to watch the process.
> 
> The time and money and aggravation it would save me is worth the expense. PM me if you would be interested in showing me how you make a kitless pen.



This will get you started, and much cheaper!  (50% to me and 50% to George 
:biggrin...just kidding...ok 40% to me and 60% to George....

There is lots to be learned in the library and various threads here.

Have fun
Tom


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## mredburn (Sep 23, 2011)

I use the 10x.5 for the front section because the threads are smaller in size when I get to thinner pieces it makes a difference. the .5 .75 and 1 are personal preference after a fashion . I think the x1 are to coarse for my tastes. However all three can work. I believe in plastics the .75 is a better choice.
I also have just added the 8 x.75 for rollerball front ends to my working taps and I used it on the wooden roller ball I just posted. the threads on the cap are m12 x .75 and are pretty fine for wood, They are great for metal but I may switch to m12 x 1 for the next one. 
Parson if you dont get a better offer I could put you up for a couple of days. Although I haven't made a pen out of pr type materials.

When tapping using metric taps/dies I subtract .2mm from the tap size for the male rod diameter. IE 10x.75 the rod is cut 9.8mm and threaded. On softer material that will push up I cut it to 9.75. The hole drilled is the tap size minus the thread 
IE 10mm -.75=9.25. Now that is really too tight so I drill it 9.4mm gives me a little working room at the top of the threads.


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## mredburn (Sep 23, 2011)

Other things on my work list youmay not have thought of is sanding sticks. I have almost all my working grits on a sanding stick. I take a piece of hardwood. Oak or cherry etc. and cut them 1/4 in  thick 1 1/8 wide and 12 inshes long. I take a sheet of sandpaper and glue it to 3 sides of the sanding stick. I usually put wood glue on three sides leaving one of the 1/4 sides clear. line up the edge of the stick and the edge of the sandpaper and then wrap it as tight as i can around the three edges. I then take a razer knife and cut the rest of the sandaper off. I even have Micro mesh done this way. 

 What I use them for is to flatten surfaces while turning and to hand sand the wood clips I make. I fI hand coat the clip with CA I then use these MM sticks to polish the clip with.


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## Texatdurango (Sep 23, 2011)

Parson said:


> All this info is really great, but I really do need a video tutorial or someone to invite me to their shop one weekend to watch them make a kitless pen by hand...
> 
> I'm willing to fly anywhere and even pay the person for their time and I'll stay in a hotel nearby and rent a car if I have to fly into the town to watch the process.
> 
> The time and money and aggravation it would save me is worth the expense. PM me if you would be interested in showing me how you make a kitless pen.


 
I have always said that my shop is open to visitors if I'm awake and several from the DFW metroplex area took me up on the offer while I lived there.  Just because I moved doesn't change anything so if you want to take a nice little drive getting out of the Houston heat and humidity and come up into the cool White mountains of Arizona, you can bring a notepad to take notes, a camera to take shots to remember and leave having made your first totally hand made pen and a list of tools to buy when you get home!  :biggrin:


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## Simplex (Sep 23, 2011)

I asked this same question awhile back.  Here are the responses I received:

http://www.penturners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=71197

I found that having a metal lathe has been a huge help.  However, this is more of a preference than a necessary tool; it all depends on what you want to do.  For the kitless pens I make, my time is split about evenly between the wood and metal lathes.


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## TomW (Sep 23, 2011)

Texatdurango said:


> Parson said:
> 
> 
> > All this info is really great, but I really do need a video tutorial or someone to invite me to their shop one weekend to watch them make a kitless pen by hand...
> ...



I'll be right there!

Tom


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## glycerine (Sep 23, 2011)

Parson said:


> Timebandit wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
I think he was joking about that...


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## Timebandit (Sep 23, 2011)

LOL!! I was!!:biggrin:

I only use my lathe and 1 turning tool, A Woodchuck Penpro, to make every pen you have seen me make on here. Of course calipers, taps and dies, die holders, all that fun stuff, but other than that, its a lathe and one tool. This isnt rocket science. 

Parson PM o the way



glycerine said:


> Parson said:
> 
> 
> > Timebandit wrote:
> ...


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## eldee (Sep 23, 2011)

Texatdurango said:


> Parson said:
> 
> 
> > All this info is really great, but I really do need a video tutorial or someone to invite me to their shop one weekend to watch them make a kitless pen by hand...
> ...



That's one heck of a nice offer George!


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## hewunch (Sep 23, 2011)

I have had several turners at my shop too. I am always happy to share my knowledge.


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## Texatdurango (Sep 23, 2011)

To me, that's half the fun of playing in the shop. Some of the most memorable times in my shop involved having friends over just to visit (and bring donuts) and pass a few hours or show me how to thread a lidded box by hand chasing threads or me showing them how I do something. In my opinion that's what IAP is all about too...... having a cyber shop where we can drop in and show and tell or have someone show or tell us, we just don't get the benefit of the donuts.  



hewunch said:


> I have had several turners at my shop too. I am always happy to share my knowledge.


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