# Copying each others work



## skiprat (Nov 28, 2006)

Hi all,
I've just chatted to Eagle and asked him if I could attempt to copy a design of one of his pens. He said to go for it but also said that we never see pics of any one elses copies. I would feel great if someone copied mine. If you have copied someones work, lets see it.
We all love to show of the work we are proud of and the albums are testament to that. There are pens made by btboone ? that I would love to be able to make, the titanium ones. If I made one of those and it was good enough to post a pic, then I would say it was inpired by his design. I believe that this site is intended for us to share ideas instead of just stealing them. I know as I did it for ages before joining

BTW ( I only just figured out what that stood for ) Eagle didn't tell me HOW to do his herring bone pen, but I'll figure it out.

Cheers
Skiprat


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## Paul in OKC (Nov 28, 2006)

I would love to copy Eagle's work. Only problem is I have to live and work and raise the family and.... I'm afraid all those would go by the wayside if I started trying[] Maybe some day I will just be close to being as good.


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## Skye (Nov 28, 2006)

I made one that was similar to one made by Andy (twoofakind) and copy Billy's (alamocdc) shapes.


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## skiprat (Nov 28, 2006)

Paul, 
Are you kidding?? You're up there too. Your designs are stunning!!!


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## vick (Nov 28, 2006)

I have many pens in my album that I made from a design of Russ Fairfield's.

<b>Image Insert:</b><br />


<br /> 

This one is a copy of a pen I saw Richard Klienhertz made.
<b>Image Insert:</b><br />

<br />


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## twoofakind (Nov 28, 2006)

I have borrowed ideas from this forum even before I joined. To me it is sort of flattering that my peers like my work enough to copy and or expand it to new heights. The first pen I remember copying was RonMc's Morning After design. I am working on something now that I want to bring to the next Bubbasville that I really think will sell well with the right crowd. I have not seen it done before, but someone may have already did it.
Andy


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## Rifleman1776 (Nov 28, 2006)

To actually "copy" someone else's pen would be practically, if not completely, impossible. We all use the same kits and (often) a piece of wood is a piece of wood. But my Baron in walnut is guranteed to not look like your Baron in walnut. We can emulate or draw inspiration from others work, but pure copy is highly unlikely. In fact just trying is a compliment to the original maker. Painters try to 'copy' works of the masters. Just the exercise helps make them better painters. What you end up with will be your original. Good luck. Let's see some results when you have done one.


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## ctEaglesc (Nov 28, 2006)

Skiprat-
I think you misunderstood my statement.
What I meant was the way this site is set up I am sure there are many who surf and lurk looking for new ideas  so they san take them, make pens and sell them and never make a single post or contribute to this site in any way at all.
I was sent a picture of a "Sine Wave " pen by someone who asked when did I make it as I had never posted it.
I said siple, I didn't make it.
The person who did make it was from South Africa.I saw the post somewhere on the net.
I don't know if I am the first to use that particular technique, probably not.I don't look at albums or many posts in SOYP because I really don't want to take someone elses ideas or be accused of doing it.
I will take credit for "pentarsia" and I haven't seen many copy the idea though marketry and intarsia has been done for centuries.


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## fiferb (Nov 28, 2006)

Just about every pen I've made has been inspired in part by something I've seen here. Also, if I didn't want an idea copied or borrowed, I wouldn't show any pictures. My opinion is, if there is a picture of it for everyone to see then it is available to use for your own inspiration.


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## skiprat (Nov 28, 2006)

Hi Eagle,
 Just what you said made me realize that that was what I had done till I joined. I am now trying to repay that debt. I don't make any money from my hobby though and give all my pens away.
All I meant was that if you are inspired by the shape, combination of kit to wood, inlays, laminations, etc etc that you see in someones work enough to make one and post a pic then we should at least say so in the label. There are nearly ten thousand pics in the gallery and it is impossible to see them all. But if I wrote 
'Here's my latest pen that was inspired by Eagles ' Herring Bone Pen' , then people would have a look and admire the original after mine ( the copy)popped up in the 'newest photo' box.

Others have already said the same.

I will still conquer your pen and when I do you will be the first to know!!![]
Skiprat


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## its_virgil (Nov 28, 2006)

Is there really anything new under the sun? Or do we just enhance, adapt, adjust, add to, adorn, aggrandize, amplify, appreciate, augment, beautify, boom, boost, build up, complement, elevate, embellish, embroider, enlarge, exaggerate, exalt, flesh out*, heighten, increase, intensify, lift, magnify, pad*, pyramid*, raise, reinforce, strengthen, swell, upgrade,	acclimate, accommodate, accustom, alter, change, come around, comply, conform, familiarize, fashion, fit, habituate, harmonize, make, match, modify, prepare, qualify, readjust, reconcile, remodel, revise, shape, shape up*, square, suit, tailor,	adapt, adjust, become, change, convert, correct, customize, doctor, mutate, recast, redo, refashion, reform, remodel, reorganize, repair, reshape, revise, rework, shift gears*, switch over, transfigure, transform, transmogrify, transmute, turn, tweak*, ...

Do a good turn daily!
Don


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## Penmonkey (Nov 28, 2006)

> _Originally posted by its_virgil_
> <br />Is there really anything new under the sun? Or do we just enhance, adapt, adjust, add to, adorn, aggrandize, amplify, appreciate, augment, beautify, boom, boost, build up, complement, elevate, embellish, embroider, enlarge, exaggerate, exalt, flesh out*, heighten, increase, intensify, lift, magnify, pad*, pyramid*, raise, reinforce, strengthen, swell, upgrade,	acclimate, accommodate, accustom, alter, change, come around, comply, conform, familiarize, fashion, fit, habituate, harmonize, make, match, modify, prepare, qualify, readjust, reconcile, remodel, revise, shape, shape up*, square, suit, tailor,	adapt, adjust, become, change, convert, correct, customize, doctor, mutate, recast, redo, refashion, reform, remodel, reorganize, repair, reshape, revise, rework, shift gears*, switch over, transfigure, transform, transmogrify, transmute, turn, tweak*, ...
> 
> Do a good turn daily!
> Don



Show off![]
That is to deep for me[]


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## arioux (Nov 28, 2006)

i]Originally posted by vick[/i]
<br />I have many pens in my album that I made from a design of Russ Fairfield's.

Vick,

We all have made a pen somewhere based on one of Russ's design []

Alfred


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## JDPens (Nov 28, 2006)

> _Originally posted by its_virgil_
> <br />Is there really anything new under the sun? Or do we just enhance, adapt, adjust, add to, adorn, aggrandize, amplify, appreciate, augment, beautify, boom, boost, build up, complement, elevate, embellish, embroider, enlarge, exaggerate, exalt, flesh out*, heighten, increase, intensify, lift, magnify, pad*, pyramid*, raise, reinforce, strengthen, swell, upgrade,	acclimate, accommodate, accustom, alter, change, come around, comply, conform, familiarize, fashion, fit, habituate, harmonize, make, match, modify, prepare, qualify, readjust, reconcile, remodel, revise, shape, shape up*, square, suit, tailor,	adapt, adjust, become, change, convert, correct, customize, doctor, mutate, recast, redo, refashion, reform, remodel, reorganize, repair, reshape, revise, rework, shift gears*, switch over, transfigure, transform, transmogrify, transmute, turn, tweak*, ...
> 
> Do a good turn daily!
> Don



Now that's my kind of vocabulary!! [8D]


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## ctEaglesc (Nov 28, 2006)

> _Originally posted by its_virgil_
> <br />Is there really anything new under the sun? Or do we just enhance, adapt, adjust, add to, adorn, aggrandize, amplify, appreciate, augment, beautify, boom, boost, build up, complement, elevate, embellish, embroider, enlarge, exaggerate, exalt, flesh out*, heighten, increase, intensify, lift, magnify, pad*, pyramid*, raise, reinforce, strengthen, swell, upgrade,	acclimate, accommodate, accustom, alter, change, come around, comply, conform, familiarize, fashion, fit, habituate, harmonize, make, match, modify, prepare, qualify, readjust, reconcile, remodel, revise, shape, shape up*, square, suit, tailor,	adapt, adjust, become, change, convert, correct, customize, doctor, mutate, recast, redo, refashion, reform, remodel, reorganize, repair, reshape, revise, rework, shift gears*, switch over, transfigure, transform, transmogrify, transmute, turn, tweak*, ...
> 
> Do a good turn daily!
> Don



Some one said that and then Thomas Jefferson closed the patent office.
The statement is about as incorrect now as it was then.
The new under the sun part.


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## mick (Nov 28, 2006)

I "borrow" shapes....wood plating combinations....inlay ideas....I shamelessly "borrowed" Ron Mc's Glue up ideas.( thankfully can't keep em in stock!)
I "borrowed" either Eagle's or Billy's Idea of rolling my own Denim blank..I don't remember which.
You get the point...we all "borrow" or have been "borrowed" from. I thought that's why we were here.
But I think what needs to be said is we should never post a "borrowed" idea and claim it as our own.
I posted a pen in the SOYP of a Holly pen with a red, white and blue stars centerband.I got the idea from a pen Don Ward did a couple of months ago. I wasn't even aware that the particular kit was available until I saw Don's pen. There again that's why he posted and that's why I'm here!


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## its_virgil (Nov 28, 2006)

I had a feeling you wouldn't agree with me. [] But, hey, I'll stick to my guns.[]
Do a good turn daily!
Don


> _Originally posted by ctEaglesc_
> <br />
> 
> 
> ...


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## TellicoTurning (Nov 28, 2006)

I don't know if I have ever copied one of Russ Fairfield's pens, actually don't think I have ever seen his site, but until I joined IAP and started looking at what you guys do, I just followed the directions that came with the various kits and made the pens pretty much like the catalog... Now I see something someone has done here and I want to try it... Lots of inspiration.

I tried to copy one of Aussie Chick's (Toni's) polka dot pens.


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## alamocdc (Nov 28, 2006)

> _Originally posted by mick_
> <br />
> I "borrow" shapes....wood plating combinations....inlay ideas....I shamelessly "borrowed" Ron Mc's Glue up ideas.( thankfully can't keep em in stock!)
> I "borrowed" either Eagle's or Billy's Idea of rolling my own Denim blank..I don't remember which.



It was probably Eagle's since he did it before I did. That's where I got the idea for mine. My first attempt was a dismal failure and he gave me some ideas that have since proven successful. However, I developed a new technique that gives me the same result. That's the beauty of trying to emulate something. Sometimes it works, sometimes not, and sometimes you figure out another way. I'm sure I don't do my casing pens like anyone else. And Eagle isn't the only craftsman I've attempted to emulate. I began experimenting with Ed's (YoYoSpin) beads and coves shortly after joining the site, and I started doing modified SLs like Russ about the same time. The great thing about trying something that you've seen someone else do is that it spurs new ideas for you to try (at least it does me). But I'm not about to try and mimic something like Pentarsia, nor would I attempt to recreate the artistry of the Gisi boys. But they have both given me ideas to springboard from.


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## NavyDiver (Nov 29, 2006)

"Imitation is the highest form of flattery" - don't know who first said it, but it definitely applies.


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## RussFairfield (Nov 29, 2006)

> _Originally posted by NavyDiver_
> <br />"Imitation is the highest form of flattery" -



That first person to drill a hole in a stick of wood, poke a Cross refill in it, and call it a pen must be really flattered in the highest form. Everything we have done since has only been an enhancement.


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## ctEaglesc (Nov 29, 2006)

> _Originally posted by RussFairfield_
> <br />
> 
> 
> ...


I respectfully disagree.
People made casing pens only out of slim lines,I made them with a Parker refill. I looked for others made with a Parker couldn't find any made before March of 2005 so therefore it was new  because I used an entirely different set of "guts"
Intarsia has been around for centuries  I looked for examples of it in a pen and asked if anyone had seen it done before I did it in Nov of 2005.I believe it was new.
People are casting many things in plastic, The Big boys have made many designs with plastic and metal, I had not seen the same concept using plexiglass and metal as I did my copper vein  baron roller ball.
These designs are unique.By definition I believe "unique" is one of a kind.If It is one of a kind in the style, design, materials and technique then it is indeed new and not just an adaptation.
Might go so far to add innovative also.


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## its_virgil (Nov 29, 2006)

They were until someone flattered you and made a copy. Then there were two and the uniqueness vanished.

(Ecclesiastes 1:9-14 NIV) What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun. {10} Is there anything of which one can say, "Look! This is something new"? It was here already, long ago; it was here before our time. {11} There is no remembrance of men of old, and even those who are yet to come will not be remembered by those who follow. {12} I, the Teacher, was king over Israel in Jerusalem. {13} I devoted myself to study and to explore by wisdom all that is done under heaven. What a heavy burden God has laid on men! {14} I have seen all the things that are done under the sun; all of them are meaningless, a chasing after the wind.

Do a good turn daily!
Don


> _Originally posted by ctEaglesc_
> 
> These designs are unique.By definition I believe "unique" is one of a kind.


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## DCBluesman (Nov 29, 2006)

Based on both dictionary and common-use terminology, none of our pens are unique.  Some may be original, but closing the end of a pen, altering the color of a resin or even cutting and glueing pieces back together are not unique.  Painted pens?  My son was painting on wood at the age of two.  Using different sizes of ink refills for pens?  There are over fifty different sizes of refills listed on several commercial websites.  Cross makes over a dozen.  

So what do we do?  We create non-identical pens, using and/or adapting fairly common processes, of wood, metal, stone, plastic and other materials.  Using the most strict interpretation of "unique", any object is unique.  Even 24k gold has components below the molecular level that make each sample different from any other and therefore unique.  If I make a Sam Maloof chair, based on his distinctive style, it may said to be "in the Sam Maloof" style.  I may choose to finish a pen in the "Fangar style", the 'Russ Fairfield style" or the "Don Ward style".  These are distinctive and different, but none can be said to be truly unique unless all are unique.

In the last 50 years or so, advertising has so misused the word "unique" that we feel compelled to continue to misuse it.  In actuality, if I make 50 maple Baron pens with stock nibs and gold titanium plating, they are truly not unique, even though each is different from the others.  Either ALL are unique or none are unique.

Oh...and Eagle, as soon as you made a second Pentarsia, a second Parker style casing pen and a second lucite and metal pen (lucite is a plastic and actually a derivative of the big guys), the uniqueness of all of them vanished.

As for the original topic on copying, we are all inspired by something different.  Some are inspired by pens made by others.  Some by music.  Some by Asian art.  Some by other woodworing techniques. Offerring an attribution to the inspiration is a nice gesture, but certainly shouldn't be a requirement...unless the work is patented.


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## boadywoods (Nov 29, 2006)

> _Originally posted by DCBluesman_
> <br />
> Oh...and Eagle, as soon as you made a second Pentarsia, a second Parker style casing pen and a second lucite and metal pen (lucite is a plastic and actually a derivative of the big guys), the uniqueness of all of them vanished.



Your crossing a Grizzly there Lou. He knows everything. He invented the internet also.


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## Ron in Drums PA (Nov 29, 2006)

> Everything we have done since has only been an enhancement.



Even the techniques for enhancements have been around for a very long time.

Feel free to copy my work as much as you want.
If I have inspired you, so much the better.
If not, that's okay too.


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## DCBluesman (Nov 29, 2006)

Would someone PLEASE copy my work.  I need a boost! [8D]


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## JimGo (Nov 29, 2006)

> _Originally posted by DCBluesman_
> <br />Would someone PLEASE copy my work.  I need a boost! [8D]



Does the fact that I've drawn inspiration from your work count?  I made my "vase" cigar pen after I saw your column pens.

And I know how you feel...I'm still waiting for someone to say they copied one of my designs!  Of course, one of the reasons they probably don't say that is that most of the ones I have created that deviate from B-to-B style are pretty ugly, so... []


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## DocStram (Nov 29, 2006)

And that's exactly why I don't show any photos of my pens. I dread the thought of somebody stealing my creative, unique designs! Sanding lines, mismatched blanks, misread micrometer readings ... those are all my original design ideas. []  Truthfully, I am working on a light box so I can start a photo album.


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## ctEaglesc (Nov 29, 2006)

DC.
You and I have discussed the subject  of "new" and "unique" many times over the phone.
We will never agree on the difference between the denotative ond connotative meaning of those two words.
That being said as far as there being"nothing new under the sun"...
Close the patent office, forget about trademarks and copywrights.
Just make B2B pens and only use the supplied components from the Mfgrs as they are intended so ewveryone can make pens that look like the cotoluge pictures.
Funny thing, I bet they (the big boys) have trade marks, copywrights and paptents on their products.
HMMMMM????????? makes one wonder.


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## jtate (Nov 29, 2006)

I'm copying two people at once!  and I don't remember who they are.  Who made the fried brain polymer clay pen?  Who made the polkadotted one by drilling through the blank and inserting dowels?
This is my weekend's work:


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## skiprat (Nov 29, 2006)

Lou,

We all know that YOU are not serious, but the truth is, it's because we can't. 

Yet


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## ctEaglesc (Nov 29, 2006)

> _Originally posted by its_virgil_
> <br />They were until someone flattered you and made a copy. Then there were two and the uniqueness vanished.
> 
> (Ecclesiastes 1:9-14 NIV) What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun. {10} Is there anything of which one can say, "Look! This is something new"? It was here already, long ago; it was here before our time. {11} There is no remembrance of men of old, and even those who are yet to come will not be remembered by those who follow. {12} I, the Teacher, was king over Israel in Jerusalem. {13} I devoted myself to study and to explore by wisdom all that is done under heaven. What a heavy burden God has laid on men! {14} I have seen all the things that are done under the sun; all of them are meaningless, a chasing after the wind.
> ...


was that written with the "old style" statesman Jr or the VII version.
Oh Yeah the Statesman Jr wasn't around then.
I guess that means they were new.
Do you think CSUSA has a trademark on them?


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## its_virgil (Nov 29, 2006)

Methinks someone has an "I" problem...really should get that checked.
Do a good turn daily!
Don


> _Originally posted by ctEaglesc_
> 
> I respectfully disagree.
> People made casing pens only out of slim lines,I made them with a Parker refill. I looked for others made with a Parker couldn't find any made before March of 2005 so therefore it was new  because I used an entirely different set of "guts"
> ...


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## Mudder (Nov 29, 2006)

> _Originally posted by DCBluesman_
> <br />Would someone PLEASE copy my work.  I need a boost! [8D]



[}] I would but then I would have to lower myself to YOUR level.
(Said with tongue planted in cheek and ducking for cover)[]





> _Originally posted by its_virgil_
> <br />Methinks someone has an "I" problem...really should get that checked.




I've been known to had had "eye problems" on occasion....... 
Just can't see my way clear to come to work []

Hey Ronny boy;

Do I smell pickles[?]


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## ilikewood (Nov 29, 2006)

I have to agree with the variations part....a pen is a pen is a pen.  BUT, everyone has some uniqueness to their work.  Eight years ago I heard of someones idea about a bullet pen....I didn't see it and made my own (see pictured below).  Come to find out when I did see it later, they used REAL bullet brass.  I was lucky not to see it because I probably wouldn't have come up with this idea.  My idea of making the pen was NOT unique, but the method and form was.  Was it original?  NOPE.

All of our ideas are formed from base ideas of others!  Let me explain....We turn pens on a lathe which was derived from someone elses idea of turning wood on something spinning so it would be round.  We cut pen blanks using a scroll saw to get fancy patterns, but the scroll saw was used for centuries to cut fancy patterns in wood.  We make closed end pens of every shape imaginable but the original quill in the ink had a closed end.  THERE IS NOTHING NEW, BUT WE ALL PUT OUR OWN "STAMP" ON THINGS!  Our own uniqueness is important and we should be able to preserve those things.  


<br />


<br />


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## pssherman (Nov 29, 2006)

> _Originally posted by jtate_
> <br />I'm copying two people at once!  and I don't remember who they are.  Who made the fried brain polymer clay pen?  Who made the polkadotted one by drilling through the blank and inserting dowels?



I think it was Toni that posted a picture of a polka dot pen not too long ago.

Paul in AR


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## DCBluesman (Nov 29, 2006)

> Does the fact that I've drawn inspiration from your work count? I made my "vase" cigar pen after I saw your column pens.



Thanks, Jim.  I'll take a compliment for anything!



> (Said with tongue planted in cheek and ducking for cover)



Ducking will not help the part that needs protection, Mudder!  [8D]


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## Ron in Drums PA (Nov 29, 2006)

> _Originally posted by ilikewood_
> <br />I have to agree with the variations part....a pen is a pen is a pen.  BUT, everyone has some uniqueness to their work.  Eight years ago I heard of someones idea about a bullet pen....I didn't see it and made my own (see pictured below).  Come to find out when I did see it later, they used REAL bullet brass.  I was lucky not to see it because I probably wouldn't have come up with this idea.  My idea of making the pen was NOT unique, but the method and form was.  Was it original?  NOPE.



Good lookin' Bullet Pen Bill.

Eight years ago... you are probably the first to turn a wooden nib on a pen kit too.

Congrats!


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## ctEaglesc (Nov 29, 2006)

> _Originally posted by pssherman_
> <br />
> 
> 
> ...


I believe the first one I saw was Yo Yo spin about two years ago.
Then again heres one with a lot of "dots"


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## Snazzypens (Nov 29, 2006)

[/quote]

I think it was Toni that posted a picture of a polka dot pen not too long ago.

Paul in AR
[/quote]

Yes it was me. [:I]
Toni


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## ilikewood (Nov 29, 2006)

> Eight years ago... you are probably the first to turn a wooden nib on a pen kit too.



I really doubt it.  This is not my original pen.  I made this one about 2 years ago, but it is like the original...only with different woods.

Thanks for the compliments.

Actually, I feel really bad....I haven't seen anyone copy it yet.[]


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## Ron Mc (Nov 29, 2006)

I don't smell pickles yet! That, my friend, is a pen that won't be copied soon. I have been reading this thread and enjoying all the posts to date.
When I have time I have some thoughts on the matter and will throw them out.


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## JimGo (Nov 29, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Ron Mc_
> <br />When I have time I have some thoughts on the matter and will throw them out.


Be sure to share them with us before disposing of them.


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## wdcav1952 (Nov 29, 2006)

> _Originally posted by JimGo_
> <br />
> 
> 
> ...



Did it get cold in here all of a sudden??  [:0][]


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## ilikewood (Nov 30, 2006)

OK Ron, we're waiting for your thoughts on the matter!!


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## Chuck Key (Nov 30, 2006)

Come on Ron throw them up, err out.

Chuckie


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## bob393 (Nov 30, 2006)

> _Originally posted by NavyDiver_
> <br />"Imitation is the highest form of flattery" - don't know who first said it, but it definitely applies.



Aint it the truth!


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## Ron Mc (Nov 30, 2006)

OK, I have a few minutes.[] Boy this year end paperwork is killing me![xx(]

I have seen many pens in the past both segmented, laminated, and not, that I have wanted to try in my own way. I personally don't think that I would have ever tried to attempt my first segmented pen if I hadn't seem some in someones post and thought to myself, "I believe I can do something like that." So I tried one with a few minor changes and this lead me down the path I have chosen with my pens.

Personally whenever I see one of my designs copied I feel honored that someone actually considered one of my pens worth copying! This pushes me even harder to come up with another idea for people to try. I see this as my way of giving back to the pen turning community. Not only does it keep the "old timers" on their toes but it keeps the "new" turners dreaming and trying to push their knowledge and skill level further with every pen made.

So, There you have it. My thoughts on the subject before I threw them away!

Now get off this darn machine and go copy some pens![]


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