# Caution Gun Pictures



## Whaler (Nov 27, 2013)

I picked up my first Sig Sauer today, a P238 Tribal in .380. Paid way to much for it but I have always wanted a Sig. At 15.2 oz and 5.5" long it should be a dream to carry.


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## 08K.80 (Nov 27, 2013)

I like the rainbow controls. I almost got the rainbow 290 w/night sights, but it was mostly just pretty. Only single stack was another con.
You will love your new SIG.:wink:


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## jyreene (Nov 27, 2013)

I greatly enjoy my 226 from them.


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## JP61 (Nov 27, 2013)

Nice! I had a 9 mm years ago.... sold it (cheap) while going through divorce!

wink: Is that as or more dangerous than a buffer?)


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## jyreene (Nov 27, 2013)

Divorce is always more dangerous!


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## JP61 (Nov 27, 2013)

jyreene said:


> Divorce is always more dangerous!



lol.... sorry, I meant the Sig not the divorce.


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## jyreene (Nov 27, 2013)

I know!

The tool is never dangerous. It's the tool using the tool that is dangerous. 

It makes me always think back to early in the Marines and hearing "There is no such thing as a stupid questions."  I've since amended that to "There's no such thing as a stupid question but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."


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## edstreet (Nov 27, 2013)

No need for the 'caution' in the subject line. 

Nice photography btw.


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## Whaler (Nov 27, 2013)

edstreet said:


> No need for the 'caution' in the subject line.
> 
> Nice photography btw.



Last time I posted a gun pic on here I stirred the hackles of some non gunners, didn't want that to happen again.


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## Bigj51 (Nov 27, 2013)

You will love it. I have a P238HD - .380 & a P938 - 9mm. I alternate these as my carry gun.




My P238HD



My P938


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## Bigj51 (Nov 27, 2013)

Whaler said:


> Last time I posted a gun pic on here I stirred the hackles of some non gunners, didn't want that to happen again.



Ah don't worry about them! Haters gonna hate! 


Bet this one would rile them up good then!  I seem to have  gun building addiction!

The Sig pistols are really nice shooting! You made a good choice.


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## Nick (Nov 27, 2013)

Fine looking piece Dick, your photography is the best on the site. Very will done


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## Scott (Nov 27, 2013)

Wow Dick!  That is just beautiful!  Thank you for showing it to us!  I am still looking for my first Sig.  But if I saw one like that in the store, I would be sorely tempted!

Scott.


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## lsweeney (Nov 27, 2013)

*pretty tool*

Just who said that a tool can't be nice looking!!!!!!


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## Jim Burr (Nov 27, 2013)

Sweet piece of steel Dick. 
Colors are over the top!!


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## Lucky2 (Nov 27, 2013)

Nice size handgun Dick, I'm not all that crazy about the colors though.
Len


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## Whaler (Nov 28, 2013)

Bigj51 said:


> You will love it. I have a P238HD - .380 & a P938 - 9mm. I alternate these as my carry gun.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Nice pair of Sigs. I think that my next purchase will be a Sig P938 to give me the option of carrying a 9mm. I'm a small guy and my CZ 9mm is a it big for me to carry but it fits my bedside table fine.


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## Whaler (Nov 28, 2013)

Nick said:


> Fine looking piece Dick, your photography is the best on the site. Very will done



Thanks Nick. Are you getting any shop time? I'm going through a burned out stage, haven't turned a thing in months.


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## Bigj51 (Nov 28, 2013)

Whaler said:


> Thanks Nick. Are you getting any shop time? I'm going through a burned out stage, haven't turned a thing in months.



I understand that. When I get burned out on turning I find myself building guns.


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## edstreet (Nov 29, 2013)

I have only one Sig to date.






Since you mentioned burnout want to see some builds that I have on hold?


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## jyreene (Nov 29, 2013)

edstreet said:


> I have only one Sig to date.  Since you mentioned burnout want to see some builds that I have on hold?



Yes. I do. When I get back one of my projects that the wife approved is building my 1000 yd bolt action.


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## edstreet (Nov 29, 2013)

Lets see here ...

2x 100% home built AK's.  Yes this is sheet metal and I can build them out of a shovel.





4x AR's,  1 of them is not shown and it's an M&P, these 3 are going to be special I think and not 100% sure what I want yet.  Am leaning towards 1 with a can but may go integrated, 2 regular and 1 carbine or pistol.





There is the gas system, sights and top grip on my 12 gauge.  Trivial work yes but not cheap on the parts.  The bulk of the work has already been done for the rest of the project.





Then there's the JAE stock for this bad boy.  12 month back log and $1,200, it's a shelf project for some time now.





Oh yea, I want to do some mod upgrades to my double barrel flintlock 20 gauge.





Namely replace everything you see here.





Am going with a Manton V-pan lock.  Since I am unable to locate a pair of locks for this one I will have to custom cut one from bar stock.  Also have to put on some blast shields on the side.  That can be brutal.

This is her in action.





Yes she can be a range hazard if safety is not strictly observed.





See that orange beam shooting out the side? That's the breath of the dragon 

I also have my southern mountain long rifle in the works.  There is 3 black powder pistol builds as well.  However my builds are not your normal builds by no means.  This is two of my completed jobs.






and


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## BKelley (Nov 29, 2013)

*Colt*

This little Colt Government Model 380 in stainless steel as served me well over the past 15 years. It settled an argument between me and a angry cotton mouth. That is about the only time it was called on in an emergency, but I know it is always there when needed. By the way, the grips are white paper based micarta I made just after purchasing the gun.

Ben


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## TellicoTurning (Nov 29, 2013)

Whaler said:


> edstreet said:
> 
> 
> > No need for the 'caution' in the subject line.
> ...



I'm not a gun owner, I don't want to be a gun owner.... but that is a pretty little piece.


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## jyreene (Nov 29, 2013)

Those are nice Ed.


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## wolftat (Nov 29, 2013)

Those are some real pretty weapons, but I will keep playing with my Glock 18 until I learn to get it fully under control.


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## edstreet (Nov 29, 2013)

target control?  handling control? some other area?


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## gimpy (Nov 29, 2013)

So, I want to get my wife a something to carry for protection. 

What would you safe would be a good choose.

She is tiny, 5' 2"....small hands

Looking for ideas,


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## jyreene (Nov 29, 2013)

gimpy said:


> So, I want to get my wife a something to carry for protection.  What would you safe would be a good choose.  She is tiny, 5' 2"....small hands  Looking for ideas,



My wife is 5' 2" and had a S&W Bodyguard in .380.  Got a little kick but the safety and dao sold me.


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## jyreene (Nov 29, 2013)

jyreene said:


> My wife is 5' 2" and had a S&W Bodyguard in .380.  Got a little kick but the safety and dao sold me.



But she also has a S&W .357 with a 4" barrel for the home.


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## gimpy (Nov 29, 2013)

jyreene said:


> gimpy said:
> 
> 
> > So, I want to get my wife a something to carry for protection.  What would you safe would be a good choose.  She is tiny, 5' 2"....small hands  Looking for ideas,
> ...



Thank you, I'll check into it......do you have a photo you could share


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## edstreet (Nov 29, 2013)

gimpy said:


> So, I want to get my wife a something to carry for protection.
> 
> What would you safe would be a good choose.
> 
> ...



This is a very hotly debated topic and a very big loaded question.  On one have you have the medically correct terminal ballistics big hole school which states anything that punches over 1/2" hole.  Yet you have usability and when it comes to small grips, less muscle power and the like you will have to decrease size to make it fit.

What I like to encourage everyone is to first ignore the caliber.  Get what fits the grip.  After that work on precision, accuracy and usability.  Afterall if you can't grip it or rack the slide properly it may as well be a hammer you have.

This is where gunshows and rentals comes in very handy at ranges.  Walk around and test drive all different sizes, shapes and the like.  Go with what fits, feels good and natural to that person.


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## gimpy (Nov 29, 2013)

edstreet said:


> gimpy said:
> 
> 
> > So, I want to get my wife a something to carry for protection.
> ...




Thanks Ed, teally does make a lot of sense, will do this for sure


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## jyreene (Nov 29, 2013)

edstreet said:


> This is a very hotly debated topic and a very big loaded question.  On one have you have the medically correct terminal ballistics big hole school which states anything that punches over 1/2" hole.  Yet you have usability and when it comes to small grips, less muscle power and the like you will have to decrease size to make it fit.  What I like to encourage everyone is to first ignore the caliber.  Get what fits the grip.  After that work on precision, accuracy and usability.  Afterall if you can't grip it or rack the slide properly it may as well be a hammer you have.  This is where gunshows and rentals comes in very handy at ranges.  Walk around and test drive all different sizes, shapes and the like.  Go with what fits, feels good and natural to that person.



That. Go to a range. Make friends with a Devil Dog near you. Let your wife shoot everything. If she can handle it. It's comfortable. And fits then it's the one for her. I'll post the photos soon. Have to clean them anyways.


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## Whaler (Nov 29, 2013)

Another great little .380 is the Bersa Thunder, great shooter, light recoil and inexpensive. This one has been my carry gun for a couple years.


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## 08K.80 (Nov 29, 2013)

I agree with Edstreet. I had many recommendations from people before a purchase and a lot of them didn't feel right. You need to get something that fits the hand, is comfortable, and able to reach/operate the controls. If possible, test fire it to feel the recoil and test rack the slide.
I went with a Sig P229 9mm with E2 grips and love it. It's a great all around weapon and I chose the 9mm because the ammo was the least expensive and easy to obtain. It's a little more expensive than it used to be a couple of years ago, but still less costly than some of the other calibers. It's also harder to get ahold of now days with the demand and large government order.
Another great feature of the P229 is the ability to switch caibers to a .357 or .40 with a simple barrel exchange kit.


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## edstreet (Nov 29, 2013)

Things you need to look for:

pounds of pressure needed to release the slide lock
pounds needed to rack the hammer, if there is one.
distance you have to travel to reach the the slide lock and hammer.
good full range finger grip 
natural aim point
angle of barrel to grip 
unloading and loading the chamber, magazine or whatever it uses.
'goof proof' safe unloading.
hand / eye dominance and 'cross' (I shoot best cross fyi)

All of these are factored in by the persons mentality, physical size, physical strength, natural shoulder and elbow positions and need to be taken into account when selecting something to get.


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## Jim Burr (Nov 29, 2013)

Whaler said:


> Bigj51 said:
> 
> 
> > You will love it. I have a P238HD - .380 & a P938 - 9mm. I alternate these as my carry gun.
> ...



Same thing in my pocket but the big brother...CZ P75 Duty 40...I think we chatted about these earlier?


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## Jim Burr (Nov 29, 2013)

edstreet said:


> Things you need to look for:
> 
> pounds of pressure needed to release the slide lock
> pounds needed to rack the hammer, if there is one.
> ...



Or you can do as normal people...pick up the dadgum gun and learn how to shoot. None of the 70-80 snipers I know could give a crap about Lbs to rack the chamber? Really? After 23 years as a Master pistol/rifle in the military and shooting 3Gun for 8 years, that is the dumbest thing I have yet to hear other than "distance you have to travel to reach the slide lock and hammer". Tactical shooters have no business even thinking about such nonsense. And a poor guy defending his family in the middle of the night sure isn't going to worry about "Ed's rules for figuring out how to shoot my gun" Good lord man...educate yourself beyond a book!!


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## jyreene (Nov 29, 2013)

Here the are gimpy. My wife agreed to hold all our guns for the comparison. 

First is the Bodyguard by Smith and Wesson. It's a .380. It kicks but is manageable. And it's small. That's the reason we got it. Has a safety and the unused integrated laser.









Next up is my Sig Sauer P226 in .40. It's got the rosewood grips. Shoots great. And I like that it's DA/SA with a hammer release. 









Here's the last one. Wife's Smith and Wesson 656 in .357 Magnum. Shots those and .38 Special so range time is not as expensive as it could be. Shoots like a dream. Been smithed by Smith and Wesson. 









But listen to Ed. She needs to fire them. She needs instruction. My wife used to limp wrist it and the 9mm she had wouldn't cycle. That's no good. But she doesn't do that now.


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## edstreet (Nov 29, 2013)

Jim,  These are not 'eds rules' by no stretch.  These are realistic values when you deal with the real world, that is when you have women, kids, elderly, those with medical problems i.e CTS and the like.  Not one of your so called fabled snipers will fit into those brackets I just mentioned as they are exceptions.

I knew it was only a matter of time before someone came out of the woodwork to pull the machoism so let me clear a few things up.  The distance for the thumb bit is for frame of the fit.  Imagine taking someone's very tiny hand and having them reach the slide release, for many it takes a third hand.  Truth of the matter is classic design excludes everything non-adult male and your way of schooling fits that dated design.  The designs we have today far out reaches the mindset that you have.


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## jyreene (Nov 29, 2013)

You had me until the last one Ed. It doesn't matter in the end if she's not comfortable with it or doesn't practice correctly.


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## 08K.80 (Nov 29, 2013)

Ty,
That's another great feature on most of the Sig's... the decocker. They are drop-safe and no safeties to fumble with. The DA/SA is nice as well. Mine is 10lb/4lb respectively and I believe your P226 is the same. I believe yours is a 1/2" longer and a little more weight.


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## Smitty37 (Nov 29, 2013)

hmmmm....I'm getting old.  My last handgun was a 1976 Ruger Blackhawk .357 mag.  Single Action 7.5 in. bbl.  Couldn't shoot near as fast as them little fellers you folks are packing but I once nailed a woodchuck at 107 paces (about 90 yards) standing, off hand.  Also, took a 7 point buck with it once, one shot at about 45 yards.  Sold it when I moved from New York to Delaware.


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## Scott (Nov 30, 2013)

Yes, there is that.  Even though I have 9's and 45's enough, I can still hit better with my 40 year old S&W mod. 19 revolver.  Is it a better gun?  Not necessarily.  But there is a lot more ammo down the tube with that gun, and if not perfect, practice at least makes better.

When I bought my first 9, a Taurus 92f,  I took it out to try it out.  Oh, it was fun, but I was spraying lead all over the place, but not hitting the pop can at about 30 yards.  First shot with the Mod. 19 went right through the can.  I am getting better with the autos, though.  ;-)

Scott.


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## jyreene (Nov 30, 2013)

08K.80 said:


> Ty, That's another great feature on most of the Sig's... the decocker. They are drop-safe and no safeties to fumble with. The DA/SA is nice as well. Mine is 10lb/4lb respectively and I believe your P226 is the same. I believe yours is a 1/2" longer and a little more weight.



Kelly, yes it is an awesome feature. Decocker. Yes that's what it's called. I don't know the lbs on mine but when I get back I'm going to get it worked a bit new sites (the triticon ones are okay but I know there are better), work the trigger, and get a tungsten recoil rod. If I'm paying attention to all fundamentals and mechanics and have some decent ammo (junk works but it's not as accurate at distance) I can hit an awesome group from about 50 yds. That's the farthest I've tried because that's the farthest the range I've been to has.


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## edstreet (Nov 30, 2013)

jyreene said:


> You had me until the last one Ed. It doesn't matter in the end if she's not comfortable with it or doesn't practice correctly.



Sorry,  most of the things I mentioned was areas that I have seen people have problems with.  Mostly with small hands, weak grips from injuries and the like.  i.e.  if they cant rack the slide because it requires more pressure than they can give there is some major problems.  My sister has small hands and unable to release the slide lock on 1911's, also unable to rack the slide or pull back the hammer due to the weight needed so we looked at other models for her.


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## 08K.80 (Nov 30, 2013)

jyreene said:


> Kelly, yes it is an awesome feature. Decocker. Yes that's what it's called. I don't know the lbs on mine but when I get back I'm going to get it worked a bit new sites (the triticon ones are okay but I know there are better), work the trigger, and get a tungsten recoil rod. If I'm paying attention to all fundamentals and mechanics and have some decent ammo (junk works but it's not as accurate at distance) I can hit an awesome group from about 50 yds. That's the farthest I've tried because that's the farthest the range I've been to has.




I opted out for the trijicon sights for two reasons. First, the cost and second, I've been told and read several sources that say they die out.
I do wish I had gotten the SRT though. I tried one at the range and it makes a big difference. I do have a stainless guide rod. Only difference I notice is the extra weight. Nothing for performance.

Be safe! And thanks for what you do, so I can continue doing what I do!


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## jyreene (Nov 30, 2013)

edstreet said:


> Sorry,  most of the things I mentioned was areas that I have seen people have problems with.  Mostly with small hands, weak grips from injuries and the like.  i.e.  if they cant rack the slide because it requires more pressure than they can give there is some major problems.  My sister has small hands and unable to release the slide lock on 1911's, also unable to rack the slide or pull back the hammer due to the weight needed so we looked at other models for her.



No worries Ed. To me that falls in the take it to the range and try it. Or even at the store. She can't rack it then don't get it. 



08K.80 said:


> I opted out for the trijicon sights for two reasons. First, the cost and second, I've been told and read several sources that say they die out. I do wish I had gotten the SRT though. I tried one at the range and it makes a big difference. I do have a stainless guide rod. Only difference I notice is the extra weight. Nothing for performance.  Be safe! And thanks for what you do, so I can continue doing what I do!



I'm not big on the sights either. They are already dead and I bought it with them on it. The extra weight is the point for me. I like it there. Makes the follow on shots quicker and more accurate and manages recoil that much better. 

I will be safe thank you. And your welcome. I love this job and this country.


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## Sub Vet 10 (Dec 1, 2013)

Very nice model. It is spendy, especially for a .380 and that their 2022 is a much more reasonable price point, but to each his own... My first was a $$$ HK USP 40 ...

One thing I've read for night sights is glow-in-dark model paint from your hobby store. It doesn't need a reactive light like tritium ones can and is dirt cheap.


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## Bigj51 (Dec 1, 2013)

Sub Vet 10 said:


> Very nice model. It is spendy, especially for a .380 and that their 2022 is a much more reasonable price point, but to each his own... My first was a $$$ HK USP 40 ...  One thing I've read for night sights is glow-in-dark model paint from your hobby store. It doesn't need a reactive light like tritium ones can and is dirt cheap.



Reactive light?  I have 3 guns with tritium sights and they glow dang bright without having to be exposed to any light.


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## edstreet (Dec 1, 2013)

wait,  people use sights on a pistol?


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## Whaler (Dec 1, 2013)

Sub Vet 10 said:


> Very nice model. It is spendy, especially for a .380 and that their 2022 is a much more reasonable price point, but to each his own... My first was a $$$ HK USP 40 ...
> 
> One thing I've read for night sights is glow-in-dark model paint from your hobby store. It doesn't need a reactive light like tritium ones can and is dirt cheap.



Kind of like comparing apples to oranges. The P2022 has a polymer frame and is the same size as my CZ 9mm. I picked the P238 as a small easily hidden carry weapon and price was not a factor just bought what I thought was the best out there.


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## Smitty37 (Dec 1, 2013)

edstreet said:


> wait, people use sights on a pistol?


Only if they want to hit something intentionally.


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## edstreet (Dec 1, 2013)

Smitty37 said:


> edstreet said:
> 
> 
> > wait, people use sights on a pistol?
> ...



I suppose you are right.






 it's called point shooting.  The sights are not used at all.  This is from my G27


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## 08K.80 (Dec 1, 2013)

edstreet said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > edstreet said:
> ...




Using your sights would have probably tightened your grouping and landed all those stray holes within the black circle.:wink:

Of coarse you were using a Glock, so maybe it wouldn't help to use the sights.:tongue::wink:


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## Smitty37 (Dec 1, 2013)

My guess would be ..at about 20 maybe 30 feet.  I understand "point shooting" it has been around since the early 1800's (even before I was born).  I is defensive shooting at close quarters when there is not time for regular aimed shooting.  Most people can learn it but to be very effective you need good hand eye coordination.  My own vision right now is not good enough because my right and left eye don't see objects in the same place or at the same "distance" (right eye close and fuzzy, left eye distant and sharp) when I point I am never really pointing at what I think I'm pointing at.





edstreet said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > edstreet said:
> ...


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## hard hat (Dec 1, 2013)

Welcome to the sig club. Very nice carry gun


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## edstreet (Dec 1, 2013)

Smitty37 said:


> My guess would be ..at about 20 maybe 30 feet.  I understand "point shooting" it has been around since the early 1800's (even before I was born).  I is defensive shooting at close quarters when there is not time for regular aimed shooting.  Most people can learn it but to be very effective you need good hand eye coordination.  My own vision right now is not good enough because my right and left eye don't see objects in the same place or at the same "distance" (right eye close and fuzzy, left eye distant and sharp) when I point I am never really pointing at what I think I'm pointing at.



I am not sure about the hand eye coordination bit but I do realize that is a very large and broad arena to deal with.  The average person has binocular vision until the object reaches something like 300 or so yards (not sure of the exact number) then vision becomes mono-fixation.  Some of us do not have binocular vision at all so we mono-fixate even at short distances.  Mono-fixation is where one eye is used to view the object and the other eye only picks up motion but not focus on the object.

The practice of point shooting is using the persons natural aim, it is the very same concept with clay shooting with shotguns.  Humans are natural pointers, meaning you point with your finger with out really looking at the finger and it's spot on target.

Then when the day is over with and all is said and done the bottom line is it's fun to shoot targets at the range and it can be a very enlightening, rewarding and very educational experience if you do things correctly.


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## Smitty37 (Dec 1, 2013)

*Misspoke*

I misspoke - I said point shooting has been around since the 1800's - it has actually always been around and actually in the beginning of shooting it was the only kind of shooting because sights had not been invented yet.

It was first described in Army shooting manuals in the 1800's.  It is fun and I suppose most shooters  (shooting for fun) tried it at one time or another.  Actually I could hit a vital area in a silhoutte at about 4 yards, drawing, cocking, pointing and firing my single action Ruger Blackhawk.  Much beyond that and things got pretty iffy.  On the other hand, I could probably have added a couple more yards with practice.

But then, I shot clay birds using a 1.5 power scope on my shotgun.  I had a deer bbl and interchangeable modified bbl for my Ithaca Model 37 - I left the scope mounted when I shot trap.  So I really did 'point' shooting with a little help there.


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## Sub Vet 10 (Dec 2, 2013)

Bigj51 said:


> Sub Vet 10 said:
> 
> 
> > Very nice model. It is spendy, especially for a .380 and that their 2022 is a much more reasonable price point, but to each his own... My first was a $$$ HK USP 40 ...  One thing I've read for night sights is glow-in-dark model paint from your hobby store. It doesn't need a reactive light like tritium ones can and is dirt cheap.
> ...



I've read that some need a flash of light for them to activate if kept in the dark- like a solar powered light, so to speak.


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## Rangertrek (Dec 2, 2013)

Nice designs on that pistol.  I just bought my wife a Ruger LCR in  357 for her to carry.  I have a S&W Bodyguard.


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## butchf18a (Dec 3, 2013)

...and this relates to turning pens how? Before you bash me as some sort of anti-gun fanatic, I own 10 firearms. Still I don't post pens on weapons sites and guns have no place on pen site.


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## Smitty37 (Dec 3, 2013)

butchf18a said:


> ...and this relates to turning pens how? Before you bash me as some sort of anti-gun fanatic, I own 10 firearms. Still I don't post pens on weapons sites and guns have no place on pen site.


No one is going to bash you --- it is as related to pen turning as people posting things about their car, or having a new baby, or a grandchild graduating from high school, or any of a hundred other things we chat about from time to time here in the Casual Conversat Forum.


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## glenspens (Dec 3, 2013)

This is one of the things i like on this forum you can talk ,post and get answers to all most anything ,but in the end it just  guys and gals doing what they love..... pens


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## edstreet (Dec 3, 2013)

glenspens said:


> This is one of the things i like on this forum you can talk ,post and get answers to all most anything ,but in the end it just  guys and gals doing what they love..... pens



Really now.  If you really look there are many parallels in working on firearms and making pens.  Also making knives and various other things as well.   To say the blanket statement that you just did is grossly wrong and shows very little consideration or understanding of the broader scope of things.

Just look at the recent finish post for things like peppermills where overwhelmingly people posted oil finishes and GASP gunstocks came into the picture of how to best finish them.

Each arena can teach the other arena a vast amount of information, you just need to look, listen and keep your eyes open to the facts.


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## WriteON (Dec 3, 2013)

That should be framed and hung on the wall. Nice looking Sig.


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## wolftat (Dec 4, 2013)

edstreet said:


> target control?  handling control? some other area?



Main issue is the muzzle climb without the shoulder stock or compensator. They make it impossible to conceal. This is in FA mode.


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## CrimsonKeel (Dec 4, 2013)

I bought a sig p239 years ago and love that gun to death.  I thought about making a grip for it out of wood but  its just too many small cavities and cut outs to make it worth the end product.  maybe some day when i have the urge or a laser cutter   i wish it was just screwed on scales and not the  rear of the gun too


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## LagniappeRob (Dec 4, 2013)

butchf18a said:


> ...and this relates to turning pens how? Before you bash me as some sort of anti-gun fanatic, I own 10 firearms. Still I don't post pens on weapons sites and guns have no place on pen site.



Because Casual Conversation is for  " *Off-topic*, general chat "


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## Jim Crouch (Dec 4, 2013)

Awesome Sig!!!  Looking for a CZ 75 sp 01 for myself, but none available in the socialist republic of California. As to gun for the wife, my wife has trouble racking a pistol, but is very comfortable with my S&W 686 357 revolver. Also, with a revolver, you don't get a failure to fire or a jam. If you get a misfire, just pull the triger for the next round in the cylinder. With a 357, you can practice with 38 special, (cheap) then use 357 mag. for self defense.


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## Whaler (Dec 4, 2013)

Jim Crouch said:


> Awesome Sig!!!  Looking for a CZ 75 sp 01 for myself, but none available in the socialist republic of California. As to gun for the wife, my wife has trouble racking a pistol, but is very comfortable with my S&W 686 357 revolver. Also, with a revolver, you don't get a failure to fire or a jam. If you get a misfire, just pull the triger for the next round in the cylinder. With a 357, you can practice with 38 special, (cheap) then use 357 mag. for self defense.



Jim, you might give these guys a call they seem to have an in with CZ. Whittaker Guns


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## Smitty37 (Dec 4, 2013)

Whaler said:


> Jim Crouch said:
> 
> 
> > Awesome Sig!!! Looking for a CZ 75 sp 01 for myself, but none available in the socialist republic of California. As to gun for the wife, my wife has trouble racking a pistol, but is very comfortable with my S&W 686 357 revolver. Also, with a revolver, you don't get a failure to fire or a jam. If you get a misfire, just pull the triger for the next round in the cylinder. With a 357, you can practice with 38 special, (cheap) then use 357 mag. for self defense.
> ...


Actually I did most of my practice with 38 special wad cutters --- very low cost - the 38 special round is strong enough for self defense as well if you want.  That round was used by law enforcement people for years and years and the 38+ also has more than enough power. It is fairly comparable to the popular 9mm round.  I do trust a revolver more for self defense than I do an automatic but the automatics can be less bulky.


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## Whaler (Dec 4, 2013)

Took a new picture of the P238 today, think I like this one better.


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## 08K.80 (Dec 4, 2013)

Jim Crouch said:


> Awesome Sig!!!  Looking for a CZ 75 sp 01 for myself, but none available in the socialist republic of California. As to gun for the wife, my wife has trouble racking a pistol, but is very comfortable with my S&W 686 357 revolver. Also, with a revolver, you don't get a failure to fire or a jam. If you get a misfire, just pull the triger for the next round in the cylinder. With a 357, you can practice with 38 special, (cheap) then use 357 mag. for self defense.




Jim,
That is a misconception. Revolvers can and do jam. It's not real common and with a semi-auto, jams aren't as common as some are lead to believe. The key is to keep it clean and greased/oiled and not to limp wrist. Fortunately, I have not had a jam, FTF or FTE.


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## LagniappeRob (Dec 4, 2013)

Smitty37 said:


> ... It is fairly comparable to the popular 9mm round. ...



I wouldn't call them comparable. Not at muzzle energy energy anyway ...  .38 runs from >200 to ~300 ft/lbs for a "+P" round. A 9mm runs ~ 350  to > 450 ft/lbs for a "+P". 

For pressure a .38 runs ~20,000 PSI, while a 9mm hits 39,500 PSI.  Because of the low pressure bullets don't expand well... meaning less take down. 

I'll take a 9 over a 38 for self defense any day.  For CCW, a .380 makes a nice compromise because of its size.


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## Smitty37 (Dec 4, 2013)

LagniappeRob said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > ... It is fairly comparable to the popular 9mm round. ...
> ...


To each his own - hollow points expand just fine in the 38 special and the 38 special can pack a bit heavier round in factory loads. If you are using handloads on a .357 mag frame you can also safely soup up 38 special rounds.  I found hand load data for rounds up to 200 grain for the 38 and only up to 147 for the 9mm.


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## Haynie (Dec 4, 2013)

The SV infinity and the Para .40 cal stay locked in the safe unless I am going out to put a few holes in something, or hiking in the desert.

You need some holes in those targets, Dick.


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## Smitty37 (Dec 4, 2013)

LagniappeRob said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > ... It is fairly comparable to the popular 9mm round. ...
> ...


Pressure does not have to do with bullet expansion, the bullet itself and velocity determine expansion.  Pressure is more related to the stress put on the pistol or revolver when the round is fired.  Extremely high pressure can and sometimes does cause considerable damage to the firearm and the shooter.


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## LagniappeRob (Dec 4, 2013)

Math is math. Pressure is used to overcome friction and accelerate the bullet.  .38's come out slower leading to less fps at impact. The .38 is not considered a very good round in terms of expansion... thus the development of several "soft loads" to compensate for the slowness.

Check out: FIREARMS TUTORIAL



> Hollowpoint bullet design facilitates turning the bullet "inside out" and flattening the front, referred to as "expansion." Expansion reliably occurs only at velocities exceeding 1200 fps, so is suited only to the highest velocity handguns.



Most .38 Special loads don't hit anywhere near that... most are around or less than 1000fps.  I'm not trying to "dis" the .38 - I have one. Will it stop someone, yes. Does it have the same stopping power as a 9? Forget everything else, energy @ a given distance   the 9 will have a significant advantage over the 38. Not to mention you can get 5 or 6 shots from a revolver, and I can carry 16+1 in my 9.  Personally I'd rather carry .50 Action Express (upwards of 10 TIMES the energy of a .38) in a Desert Eagle, but kind of hard to conceal. Not mention the last time I looked they were running $1300 or so, plus almost $2 per shot.


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## TellicoTurning (Dec 5, 2013)

Smitty37 said:


> LagniappeRob said:
> 
> 
> > Smitty37 said:
> ...





LagniappeRob said:


> Math is math. Pressure is used to overcome friction and accelerate the bullet.  .38's come out slower leading to less fps at impact. The .38 is not considered a very good round in terms of expansion... thus the development of several "soft loads" to compensate for the slowness.
> 
> Check out: FIREARMS TUTORIAL
> 
> ...




I'm not a shooter, I know from nothing about guns and the last and only pistol I remember shooting was a Colt .45 off the fantail of the ship to "qualify" with a pistol as per my petty officer rating... second class PO was supposed to be "qualified" with a pistol.... I'm pretty sure I hit my target... the pacific ocean.....

But all the above sounds to me like " she said Potato and he said Potahdo"... :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:


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## Smitty37 (Dec 5, 2013)

TellicoTurning said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > LagniappeRob said:
> ...


 Gee, I had to hit a 5" power can to qualify off he fantail of the Tin Can I served on.  Embarassed the daylights out of the gunner's mates when an ET popped the can twice with 5 shots and they all missed all of their's (with the same .45).


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## Finatic (Dec 5, 2013)

My "Do I have your Attention" home gun,


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## LagniappeRob (Dec 5, 2013)

It's a Taurus Judge?   Nice!


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## wolftat (Dec 5, 2013)

LagniappeRob said:


> Math is math. Pressure is used to overcome friction and accelerate the bullet. .38's come out slower leading to less fps at impact. The .38 is not considered a very good round in terms of expansion... thus the development of several "soft loads" to compensate for the slowness.
> 
> Check out: FIREARMS TUTORIAL
> 
> ...


Rob, while what you saying makes sense on paper, I am one that has actually used my pistols in several real life situations. While the 9 may have more rounds, the first 2 rounds usually make up the entire outcome.I am required to carry an automatic on the job but my backup is a revolver and it has never jammed or misfired. There is an argument for every caliber with the good and the bad making sense but I would use my 357 backup (and off duty carry) anytime I felt my safety was on the line.The particular one on my ankle right now is over twenty years old and shoots straight and true every time. The only time I ever had a revolver not fire was with a batch of bad primers, but that would have had the same effect in any weapon.

On the 38 issue, we used to load our own and as long as we had heavy barrels, we overloaded the powder and refered to them as hyperloads. Ruger sp101 has a heavy enough barrel for it.


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## wolftat (Dec 5, 2013)

Finatic said:


> My "Do I have your Attention" home gun,
> View attachment 105114


Thats a nice piece, and I'm glad to see the shot shell so you don't take out every neighbor on the street.:wink:


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## TellicoTurning (Dec 5, 2013)

[/quote] Gee, I had to hit a 5" power can to qualify off he fantail of the Tin Can I served on.  Embarassed the daylights out of the gunner's mates when an ET popped the can twice with 5 shots and they all missed all of their's (with the same .45).[/quote]

Smitty, you're a few years older than me and was probably in the Navy when it was required to actually shoot at someone.... I was in between '60 and '64... I'm considered a Vietnam vet by 8 days... I got out 8 days after it was declared an official police action.... so likely my "qualification" was just as an after thought... a comment was made to the 2nd class Gunnersmate that I had never fired the .45.... he took me to the fan tail and my target actually was a weather balloon the weather guessers had launched... I actually think I hit it, but you can't puncture one of those balloons with a .45... it was pretty soft rubber, loosely inflated and just slid aside - if I actually hit it.  I think he just needed to see that I could fire the weapon.

My service record also indicates that I am a qualified marksman with an M1.... I've never had an M1 in my hands... on the day my boot camp company went to the firing range I was scheduled for a dental appointment and the chief wouldn't let me postpone that in favor of the range... he just signed off that I was a marksman. 

When Typhoon Karen wiped out our admin building and the secure communications facility, the radio shack was moved to an unused barracks area that had been walled off to create a semi-secure facility, but the chief or XO decided that the watch supervisor should wear a .45.... in a fit of boredom one midnight shift, I dismantled the pistol ... I had never done that before and no training in doing it... I put it back together but really hoped I never had to fire it.


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## Smitty37 (Dec 5, 2013)

wolftat said:


> On the 38 issue, we used to load our own and as long as we had heavy barrels, we overloaded the powder and refered to them as hyperloads. Ruger sp101 has a heavy enough barrel for it.


I had a Ruger Blackhawk 357 Mag as did a good friend who was also a handloader.  We always used about 160 grain bullets for the 38 and we pushed them out with a bit more omph than you'd get from a factory load.  We did a lot more shooting with the 38 round than the 357 because factory loads were cheaper and once fired 38 brass was much easier to come by than was 357.  Judging from the books and the "kick" our top end 38 rounds were more than enough for self defense.

I have also read enough about self defense situations to know that you are spot on with the statement you made about 1st or 2nd shot ending the shooting.  I don't think I've ever read of a home owner firing more than 4 shots at an intruder(s).  And contrary to popular belief the intruder usually runs rather than engage the victim in a shooting match.  I think some folks get too much of their information from watching movies where 40 bad guys all armed with fully automatic weapons touch of about 9000 rounds inside Grand Central Station practically bringing the building down around them -- just don't happen.

Frequently there are no shots fired and to be honest if I was in a situation where I needed 15 or 16 rounds to feel safe - I'd move.  Self defense with a handgun is not expected to take place at 50 or 100 yards, If an intruder is that far away and not shooting at me, I'd get sent to jail if I shot him.


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## SDB777 (Dec 5, 2013)

Whaler said:


> I picked up my first Sig Sauer today, a P238 Tribal in .380. Paid way to much for it but I have always wanted a Sig. At 15.2 oz and 5.5" long it should be a dream to carry.



My brother thanks you for supporting his family....he works there.



Cute little pistols, it is on my Christmas list, but I think Santa will be bringing me coal instead....





Scott (never apologize for a pistol) B


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## Finatic (Dec 5, 2013)

wolftat said:


> Finatic said:
> 
> 
> > My "Do I have your Attention" home gun,
> ...



That's the whole reason I put up with a heavy gun. Low to No collateral damage.


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## gimpy (Jan 11, 2014)

Well after a few weeks of looking, touching
and shooting, we decide not only on one
handgun, but the second one for me:

My wife purchased the Pink Lady,38sp, Charter arms product
and I purchased a Taurus 85 UL, 38 sp.

So I guess you can say we went and purchased a pair of 38's:


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## wolftat (Jan 11, 2014)

gimpy said:


> Well after a few weeks of looking, touching
> and shooting, we decide not only on one
> handgun, but the second one for me:
> 
> ...


 I always liked a pair of 38s.:wink:


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## Whaler (Jan 11, 2014)

I like the looks of that Taurus.


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## robutacion (Jan 11, 2014)

Wow, I don't really know why I missed this thread from the very beginning, great stuff shared on here and I was a bit disappointed with *butchf18a* on page 7 post #63, totally unnecessary, particularly for a gun owners as he claimed...!:frown:

Anyway, read the whole thing and saw some guns that I saw very recently on my thread about, why guns can't be made pretty...! Yes, I'm talking about some of Ed's guns, pretty stuff indeed...!

I kept wondering why I never saw this thread so, I looked for a clue and I found it by following the title backwards into the IAP threads system and what did I find, this thread was created in "casual conversation", and this was a section that I blocked, as in the pass, every time I had a thread/post that stirred me up pretty badly and endup in arguments, was always something coming from the casual conversation area so, I found out how to block if and not show up on my "new post" section that I always use to navigate the forums.

This was some time ago and I never missed it, at all however, a few days ago, I had this issue that I wanted to share with you folks, and I looked for the best location to start it and that was the casual conversation.

You guys know what thread I'm talking about as it has to do with guns grips but, and for some reason, I start seeing other threads becoming available for me to read/access under the "new posts" option so, I wonder, was my blockage setting lifted when I recently posted on that blocked subject...??? 

I may need Jeff to clarify it for me...!

Apart from all that, I still want to keep "casual conversation" blocked from me, that is the safest way to prevent unnecessary aggravation from me...!

PS: If the bad guys/gals want to terminate your existence for whatever reason/motive, there is only one thing that can prevent that from happening and that is, if you have a gun that you can and know how to use and turn the odds around 180°.  Have you ever seen a "bully" in is arrogance mask, being surprised with a gun barrel pointed at their faces...???  Priceless...!:wink::biggrin::biggrin:

Cheers
George

Cheers 
George


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## cwolfs69 (Jan 11, 2014)

i have that taurus and it is one of the most comfortable carry guns i own. lite weight, and small print on the side.


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## SDB777 (Jan 12, 2014)

butchf18a said:


> ...and this relates to turning pens how? Before you bash me as some sort of anti-gun fanatic, I own 10 firearms. Still I don't post pens on weapons sites and guns have no place on pen site.


 

Actually, you should try posting pens on those sites...in fact, I would encourage it.  Seriously, as a Bound Founder on the handloadersbench.com we love bullet pens!!!  And I invite you to come on over.....anytime!




Scott (my pups don't like gun oil...go figure) B


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## gimpy (Jan 12, 2014)

wolftat said:


> gimpy said:
> 
> 
> > Well after a few weeks of looking, touching
> ...



especially when you can hold one in each hand,


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## edstreet (Jan 12, 2014)

SDB777 said:


> butchf18a said:
> 
> 
> > ...and this relates to turning pens how? Before you bash me as some sort of anti-gun fanatic, I own 10 firearms. Still I don't post pens on weapons sites and guns have no place on pen site.
> ...




Well on the firearm group I am on there is more talk of photography than firearms.  On the photography group there is more talk of firearms than photography.  Go figure.

You will also find that in the knife groups there is some heavy ego's and it takes a more direct approach to dealing with things and not beating around the bush.  While this group would often welcome other things they do tend to look down on them.

Also if you look you will find that I have been able to successfully integrate firearms and pens.


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