# What does kitless mean to you?



## Andrew_K99 (May 25, 2011)

What does kitless mean to you?

This is something that has come up in another thread and I have wondered as well.

All comments welcome.

AK


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## TomW (May 25, 2011)

Means I DIDN'T USE A KIT.  Everything used was from sources other than a pen kit (e.g. nib and feed from lou, clip from silverpenparts.com, etc.

Tom


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## Phunky_2003 (May 25, 2011)

I voted no kit material used.  If you open a kit package or buy kit parts to me that's using a kit.  Modified or highly modified but still using a kit.  Just one guys opinion though.  I don't have problems with others calling them whatever they want.  At least not until there is a clear precise definition of kit less and modified.


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## tjseagrove (May 25, 2011)

So, if I buy a transmission and install it in a pen with all other parts hand made, it is kitless.

If I open a kit and use the transmission (same make and model as above and all other factors remain the same as above), it is a kit pen.

????

Tom


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## Akula (May 25, 2011)

what is a kit?  sum of bought parts?  what if you buy 1 part..is it less, 2 parts even less

what about the material, can I buy that or does it have to be all natural?

how many parts can you buy and still call it kit-less?

if I buy all the parts from different places, can I call it kit-less?

is it automatically better or worth more if kit-less?

more tools, more/different skills but I'm not ready to make the jump to it being better...just a different ends to a goal


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## Curly (May 25, 2011)

A naked Scotsm.........Whops I read that as kiltless.

Pete


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## Holz Mechaniker (May 25, 2011)

Personally Kitless is a misnomer.  I would use the term "Freestyle" when parts from a kit are used It just more appropriate.


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## Andrew_K99 (May 25, 2011)

The intent is not to judge or determine which is better, the sole reason I asked the question was to see what *you* thought kitless meant.  The word is, IMO, used too casually and I wanted to see what others thought it meant.

AK


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## Akula (May 25, 2011)

Andrew_K99 said:


> The intent is not to judge or determine which is better, the sole reason I asked the question was to see what *you* thought kitless meant.  The word is, IMO, used too casually and I wanted to see what others thought it meant.
> 
> AK


then it's simple

if you make every single part then it's kitless..if you buy anything then other terms need to be used, modified ect

I see here kitless is making your own barrel/body and using all the other parts from a kit

I don't care what people call their work.  This falls into the same category as what do you sell your pens for???

Why do some get upset if you say you bought a kit but ok if you say I bought all the hardware?  This is a game of politicians, maybe why I just enjoy building...err designing...err making..err assembling..help I don't know what to call it now


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## ed4copies (May 25, 2011)

I don't discern a difference between your first two poll choices.

Regardless of what WE think, you will find the "informed fountain pen buyer" will call it a "kit pen" if the nib says, "Iridium point-germany"  OR, "China"


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## ldb2000 (May 25, 2011)

If your looking for a definition of "Kitless" , forget about it , no matter what you come up with , someone here will squash the idea . I tried several years ago and just gave up .
There is no truly "Kitless" pen since we all have to use a refill that was manufactured by an outside company . Even the Major Manufacturers in almost all cases buy refills from an outside company . Transmissions are another area where even the big guys buy from others and clips are also purchased from companies like Ideal Metals . No one on this site is going to make a fountain pen nib or feed , or would want to , it's just not worth the time and effort without tens of thousands of dollars worth of equipment , the same with a "true" transmission or refill .
I define it , for my own benefit only , as "no parts taken from a Pen Kit" . I make my own clips and blanks , use no nosecones , centerbands or finials . I cut my own threads , in some cases with taps and dies that I made . I buy click transmissions that were never destined to be included in a kit but was told that I still don't make a "Kitless" pen , so all I can say is "Don't waste your time trying to define the word Kitless"


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## Monty (May 25, 2011)

Like Ed, I see no difference between 1 and 2.
IMHO, the only real kitless pen would be a quill pen where one has to fashion the nib themselves, but then the feather came from a bird.


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## Smitty37 (May 25, 2011)

*Some things....*

My opinion:

Kit definition *2. *A set of parts or materials to be assembled

Then kitless (if it were a word, which it doesn't seem to be)- I think by definition would be - without a kit. Hence any pen made without using a kit is by definition "kitless"

Further:

A kit usually contains all of the metal parts (and some also have any plastic plastic) needed plus a refill or ink cartridge with step by step instructions (available if not included in the kit).

Hence, Taking a hand full of parts that were once but are no longer part of a kit or several kits, and for which there are no step by step instructions is not using a kit. Thus meeting the definition of kitless. 

Thus: I do not think it matters, how you put it together, what materials you use, how pretty it is, how well it writes or where the nib was manufactured and who manufactured it. If it is not made from a kit it is kitless.

Also, my opinion is that this question, like asking about quality on this site, is going to get about as many opinions as there are members...


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## mredburn (May 25, 2011)

Indeed Smitty indeed. How high is high. A Bic pen is kitless. A handmade wood or resin Bic style pen is kitless. In order to make kitless or Semi kitless pens we use compononts that can be found either in or seperatly from a packaged componont kit. IN order to better define kitless we will have to agree on whether or not internal parts used that are beyond the abilities of almost all of us to produce, ie refills and transmissions, ink cartridges and the inclusion of the nib feed assemblies. If it can be agreed upon that use of those items are exempt from implying the status of "kit" upon the finished product. We can then define a kitless pen as one that the rest of the parts have all been made from raw materials at the hands of the (heheh) Craftsman/ Artisian and a pen that is created but uses one or more parts found in a commercial kit is deemed semi-kitless. :biggrin:

Mike


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## azamiryou (May 25, 2011)

In the model-building world, there are kits, kit-bashes, and scratchbuilding.

Kit: You buy a kit and build it, adding your own paint, glue, putty, etc. You may also add 3rd-party or self-made details or make some modifications, but it's still a kit. Essentially, the resulting model is a model of what the kit was a model of.

Kit-bash: You use parts from one or more kits, possibly plus some scratch-building materials or detail items, to make a model of something significantly different from the original kit(s).

Scratch-build: You use scratch-building materials (such as sheet plastic) to build a model to your own design. You may well purchase detailed stock ("brick" sheet) and details (window frames, mechanical equipment) or even take detail parts from kits without changing it from the scratch-build category. The main issue is that someone looking at a kit-bash might identify the original kits, but someone looking at a scratch-build almost certainly would not.

What does this have to do with pens? As far as I'm concerned, kitless means a pen has no "identifiable" kit parts. A transmission from a kit is indistinguishable from one bought separately, so to me it's not part of the kit/kitless distinction.

So if you buy a slimline kit but make a closed-end pen with no clip or center band and turn your own nib/nose cone, then that's a kitless. Do the same thing but use the slimline nose cone? It's a modified slimline.

I chose "you forgot an option": a pen without any reasonably identifiable kit parts showing. (The third option comes close, but I don't think a kitless pen has to have closed ends. E.g., http://www.penturners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=80496 )


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## IPD_Mr (May 25, 2011)

ldb2000 said:


> If your looking for a definition of "Kitless" , forget about it , no matter what you come up with , someone here will squash the idea . I tried several years ago and just gave up .
> There is no truly "Kitless" pen since we all have to use a refill that was manufactured by an outside company . Even the Major Manufacturers in almost all cases buy refills from an outside company . Transmissions are another area where even the big guys buy from others and clips are also purchased from companies like Ideal Metals . No one on this site is going to make a fountain pen nib or feed , or would want to , it's just not worth the time and effort without tens of thousands of dollars worth of equipment , the same with a "true" transmission or refill .
> I define it , for my own benefit only , as "no parts taken from a Pen Kit" . I make my own clips and blanks , use no nosecones , centerbands or finials . I cut my own threads , in some cases with taps and dies that I made . I buy click transmissions that were never destined to be included in a kit but was told that I still don't make a "Kitless" pen , so all I can say is "Don't waste your time trying to define the word Kitless"


 
Amen!


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## Andrew_K99 (May 25, 2011)

ed4copies said:


> I don't discern a difference between your first two poll choices."


The difference between 1 and 2 is the section for a fountain pen and a transmission for a RB.

AK


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## Smitty37 (May 25, 2011)

*Kitless*

My search showed that kitless is not a defined word....nor is kit listed among the english words with less for a suffix.

Hence, kitless actually has no meaning.  Thus, currently it means whatever the person using it wants it to mean.

 The relevant meaning of "kit" is given in my earlier post.  The simplest meaning of adding the suffix less would be "without a kit".  

If you (figuratively speaking) want it to mean without (mass-manufactured) parts or have some other highly detailed definition than I think you want to look for a different word.

Personal opinion....


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## ldb2000 (May 25, 2011)

Like I said 



ldb2000 said:


> If your looking for a definition of "Kitless" , forget about it , no matter what you come up with , someone here will squash the idea . I tried several years ago and just gave up .......
> "Don't waste your time trying to define the word Kitless"


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## BKelley (May 25, 2011)

True definition of KITLESS:  "A barren female fox" and folks that is about as far as I want to go with the word kitless.  After the Kitless Pen discussion is over I will post the question what is a kitless pencil!!  And with that I wish all a good nite.

Ben


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## IPD_Mr (May 25, 2011)

BKelley said:


> True definition of KITLESS: "A barren female fox" and folks that is about as far as I want to go with the word kitless. After the Kitless Pen discussion is over I will post the question what is a kitless pencil!! And with that I wish all a good nite.
> 
> Ben


 

ROTFL - Ben that is a mighty big spoon you have stirring the pot.  :smile-big:


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## Andrew_K99 (May 25, 2011)

The question was what do YOU think this made up word means when it comes to describing a pen!  No one cares what Websters or the Merriam dictionaries have to say about it!

To think I thought it was an easy question.

AK


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## tjseagrove (May 25, 2011)

I guess Ford, Chevy, Honda, Toyota, etc would all qualify as producing kit cars as they get parts from outside and assemble them to produce vehicles.....

Tom


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## its_virgil (May 25, 2011)

I voted the last choice: The option you forgot: What does it really matter?
I rarely participate in polls and find them less than appealing. I know, I can just pass over the polls and usually do; so, I don't need to be told that! What does it matter what our various opinions are? They are just opinions...personal choice...and not really debateable. This topic has been hashed over way too many times and we are still not in agreement and never will be. I'm ducking now.:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:
Do a good turn daily!
Don


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## ldb2000 (May 25, 2011)

Ok , this is what I think is a kitless pen ,



 

Absolutely no "Kit" parts were used in making this pen . The clip is made from a piece of brass rod , the nib and feed is from a Hero 616 fountain pen , the ink sack was purchased and all the the rest , including the hooded section is hand fabricated from brass and aluminum . I'll bet that since i did not make the nib/feed and ink sack someone will still dispute that it is kitless .


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## Smitty37 (May 25, 2011)

*I thought about that*



BKelley said:


> True definition of KITLESS: "A barren female fox" and folks that is about as far as I want to go with the word kitless. After the Kitless Pen discussion is over I will post the question what is a kitless pencil!! And with that I wish all a good nite.
> 
> Ben


I thought about that too when I looked it up ..... could also mean I forgot my shaving kit and am kitless.:biggrin:  But as far as I can find in traditionally accepted sources kitless does not appear there either.


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## Smitty37 (May 25, 2011)

*left out*



Andrew_K99 said:


> The question was what do YOU think this *made up word* means when it comes to describing a pen! No one cares what Websters or the Merriam dictionaries have to say about it!
> 
> To think I thought it was an easy question.
> 
> AK


 
That part was left out of the question.  I still stand by the last statement in my first post.


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## Andrew_K99 (May 25, 2011)

ldb2000 said:


> Ok , this is what I think is a kitless pen ,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Based on the majority of responders the pen is indeed 'kitless' and great looking!


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## robutacion (May 25, 2011)

I agree that this issue will never end or be, in "Harmony" with everyone, after all, it doesn't need to be, regardless what anyone may think or want so, the interpretation of such word "kitless", in the world of pen making to me is like this;

Definition of a pen kit, using common sense:- a number of pen making parts purchased in a single package or a number of parts bought separately as part of a particular pen kit...!


*- Is the pen you made come from a "kit"...???

*- Is there a "kit" for that particular pen...???

If the answer is NO to each or both of these questions then, the pen you made is, "kitless"...!:wink:

You can complicate things as much as you want, that is not going to change what the word "kitless" is the pen making world is suppose to mean or what some want it to mean.  Either way, if is there a definition to the word that makes any sense, I have already told you what that is...!

However, and being perfectly aware that some will disagree with me, that is irrelevant nor is going to provide the answer some may want to hear but, with all due respect, why do people tend to complicate things...???

I believe in the KSS principle, it has helped me considerably in the pass...!!!:wink::biggrin:

Cheers
George


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## Smitty37 (May 25, 2011)

*ahhh*



robutacion said:


> I agree that this issue will never end or be, in "Harmony" with everyone, after all, it doesn't need to be, regardless what anyone may think or want so, the interpretation of such word "kitless", in the world of pen making to me is like this;
> 
> Definition of a pen kit, using common sense:- a number of pen making parts purchased in a single package or a number of parts bought separately as part of a particular pen kit...!
> 
> ...


 
But even that doesn't work all the time, does it?  Interchange a couple of parts with different platings between kits and the answer becomes "no" to both questions.  Does it not?


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## Texatdurango (May 25, 2011)

What does kitless mean to me, well, here is a post I made in Jan,2008..... http://www.penturners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=2370  where I just made up the word "kitless" and used it in a post for the first time to describe a pen I made without using bushings, tubes, metal finials, center bands, etc.  and is probably where the term got started on this forum.  Was I first to make a pen without using a kit, heavens no, I just happened to use the word kitless to describe it!

I thought I'd try making my own pen from scratch, from my own design since I had been turning for almost a year and had already become bored with making kit pens, meaning grabbing a plastic bag labeled "Jr Gent Roller ball - rhodium" or "Emperor FRP - 22k", dumping the parts out on a table, turning a couple blanks then pressing everything together......._*THAT*_ is what the original definition of kitless was.... nothing more, nothing less and not that big of a deal and certainly not meant to start these silly debates/arguments which have popped up every year or so since the word became commonplace.

*It's NOT really that big of a deal*, and it just blows me away how some take great delight in dissecting the word trying to find the TRUE meaning......... when it really doesn't matter.  It was just a term used by a guy who was tickled pink that he could make a decent pen without buying a kit (plastic bag full of parts usually stamped "Dayacom").

So, for those intent in finding the pure, true definition........ GOOD LUCK, these debates have been going on for three years with no concrete answers yet! :biggrin:


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## robutacion (May 26, 2011)

Smitty37 said:


> robutacion said:
> 
> 
> > I agree that this issue will never end or be, in "Harmony" with everyone, after all, it doesn't need to be, regardless what anyone may think or want so, the interpretation of such word "kitless", in the world of pen making to me is like this;
> ...



Yes, you are absolutely right, and I though of that when I posted my last post but, in the context of what 99% of the word "kitless" relates to, since people started to make pens, where most if not all of the "recognizable" kit parts aren't used or shown and in the context of what has been happening lately in IAP and everywhere where people make pens and show/talk about them...!

No doubt, there may not be a "perfect" definition of the word "kitless" in the pen making world, and that is OK, after all we all have our own ways to see things and interpret so, no one is right or wrong about the issue but, if I would like to see a general and sensible definition of such word when it comes to making pens, I would prefer to see my suggestions implemented or seen as the easy way to describe what we all (most) of us are doing...!

This reminds me of the "art" vs "craftsmanship" issue that we have discussed recently.  I don't think that one is more right than the other but, it was obvious that the majority of those that participated in that discussion, have concluded/accepted/recognized that, there are differences and most members have realized where they "belong", from that discussion. 

If, we are to make up a "kitless" definition that will accommodate the vast majority of what pen makers believe it should be, regardless of any dictionary definition then, we all could stick to it and void any future "confusions" as I believe, a lot of us would like to have that...! 

Cheers
George


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## ldb2000 (May 26, 2011)

I was googling something before and when I was done I typed the word "kitless" in and .....
It's funny but a little word that was used to describe a pen made without kit parts has grown into something larger , "the kitless style" of pens . It's not just our little group on this site anymore . 
Google the word "kitless" and see what turns up . From it's beginnings here it has spread to every woodworking site that has people who make pens . Most of us are members of other woodworking sites and by our use of the word it has taken on a life of it's own , it has become the word used to describe a "style" of pens now .
This site and the people here are at the forefront of that movement . Define it if you want to but it don't really matter anymore , the birth of the kitless movement has happened and people everywhere are now helping it grow . Whether the word is in the dictionary or not , it IS a word .


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## Smitty37 (May 26, 2011)

*not according to folks here*



ldb2000 said:


> I was googling something before and when I was done I typed the word "kitless" in and .....
> It's funny but a little word that was used to describe a pen made without kit parts has grown into something larger , "the kitless style" of pens . It's not just our little group on this site anymore .
> Google the word "kitless" and see what turns up . From it's beginnings here it has spread to every woodworking site that has people who make pens . Most of us are members of other woodworking sites and by our use of the word it has taken on a life of it's own , it has become the word used to describe a "style" of pens now .
> This site and the people here are at the forefront of that movement . Define it if you want to but it don't really matter anymore , the birth of the kitless movement has happened and people everywhere are now helping it grow . Whether the word is in the dictionary or not , it IS a word .


 
Oh!  from what I've seen here kitless is not used to describe a style -  most any style pen can be "kitless".  Kitless is used to describe something about how a pen was made.


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## Texatdurango (May 26, 2011)

*Good grief............* NOW we debate the meaning of Style, what next, the definition of brass tubes?  

When I see someone post a photo of a pen they made and the title is "My first kitless pen" I don't go into the critique mode and look to make sure they have met the criteria for an "official kiltless" pen.  Instead I am looking foreward to seeing a pen where someone is taking their pen making one step further by customizing their work.

If they want to do away with one brass tube and call it kitless, that's their business and at the end of the day........Like Butch has been trying to say (but no one is listening), *what does it matter*, if the guy or gal is happy then so should we!  I think I'll go play in the shop a while....... THAT'S what really matters!


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## IPD_Mr (May 26, 2011)

Bingo George.

What difference does it really make about how a word is perceived by someone other than your self.

What does sprinkles mean to you? 
If you are a cop it could mean a great donut.  :biggrin:
If you are a weather man or a race car drive it could mean disaster.
If you are a farmer it could mean better crops.

It does not matter what someone else thinks unless you use their brain to do the thinking for you.  While I realize there are many in this world that go through life that way, I see no reason why we should.


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## robutacion (May 26, 2011)

ldb2000 said:


> I was googling something before and when I was done I typed the word "kitless" in and .....
> It's funny but a little word that was used to describe a pen made without kit parts has grown into something larger , "the kitless style" of pens . It's not just our little group on this site anymore .
> Google the word "kitless" and see what turns up . From it's beginnings here it has spread to every woodworking site that has people who make pens . Most of us are members of other woodworking sites and by our use of the word it has taken on a life of it's own , it has become the word used to describe a "style" of pens now .
> This site and the people here are at the forefront of that movement . Define it if you want to but it don't really matter anymore , the birth of the kitless movement has happened and people everywhere are now helping it grow . Whether the word is in the dictionary or not , it IS a word .



And that is what I've been trying to say, there is a "wave" of pen makers out there now, getting involved with making pens that are not exclusively made from known pen kits brands and names/styles.  I have realize that when I made a search on the subject also, some days ago and, as Butch pointed out, that is no longer an IAP issue only but, is far beyond that...!

If the "wave"/style/pen type as started in IAP and was developed into something else by some of its members, that everyone wants to try, for many reasons, one is the phenomenal savings on the expensive kits but ,there are many others reasons then, I see no harm in having those same people to come up with a sensible definition to what a "kitless" pen should be...!

If nothing else, that could be a very useful guide for those that want to give it a go and, have this dilemma of not knowing how to tag/title it.  It may not be absolutely necessary but, it would help to define things here, and everywhere else...!

Just an opportunity that seems to be given to the kitless "instigators" here, is up to you all, if you will take it or not...!

The sun will always rise tomorrow...!:wink:

Cheers
George


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## Andrew_K99 (May 26, 2011)

Well said George and kind of why I asked the question.  It'd be nice if the word was used in a similar fashion not just used as a catch all for modified pens.

AK


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## Smitty37 (May 26, 2011)

*Communications*



IPD_Mr said:


> Bingo George.
> 
> What difference does it really make about how a word is perceived by someone other than your self.
> 
> ...


 
Problem with that thought is this: when a human being says something it is *usually* to communicate with other human beings - not themselves. 

So *if you want to communicate, *what your words mean to others is as important as they what they mean to you. 

It is unfortunate that in the English language the same word can have many different meanings and the context determines the meaning.


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## terryf (May 26, 2011)

IPD_Mr said:


> What does sprinkles mean to you?
> If you are a cop it could mean a great donut. :biggrin:


 
As a cop, I'm offended by your comment "insert bad cop smiley here"

:tongue:


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## IPD_Mr (May 26, 2011)

terryf said:


> IPD_Mr said:
> 
> 
> > What does sprinkles mean to you?
> ...


 
My father-in-law who is a member on here would not be offended.  Although I don't think he likes sprinkles.  :wink:  In fact I think his GPS has every Dunkin Donuts in the country on it.  As much traveling as he does, I think it is a great app.


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## Smitty37 (May 26, 2011)

*Enjoyed this thread*

I have really enjoyed this thread and have had a lot of fun with it.

Now to be serious and my last word on it (not too many Yippees please).  Looking at every definition given so far... the word "kitless" under an existing meaning of the word "kit" accrurately describes one aspect of the pen.  It is a pen that was put together without using a kit. Other than that it tells us nothing at all about the pen.  

I personally believe that trying to change that is an exercise in futility for all the different reasons we've seen here.  What we seem to be trying to do is define "*how* kitless is kitless".  I think we're trying to use one word to describe too many different scenarios.


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