# Kitless Tooling



## Gilrock (Nov 8, 2012)

This is sort of a follow on thread to the Getting Started Kitless thread a couple weeks ago. About the time that thread started I had just purchased new taps and dies to make the larger body pens with #6 nibs. If you missed it below is a link to a very good post in that thread where George gave a lot of information for making a pen of this size.
http://www.penturners.org/forum/f56/getting-started-kitless-102679/index2.html#post1455622

So I thought why not try out the instructions so I somewhat followed them taking a few liberties along the way and this is a link to the pen I ended up producing that I posted earlier in SOYP.
http://www.penturners.org/forum/f13/my-custom-cracked-ice-103532/#post1464211

I had already made 5 or so pens with a #5 nib so I kinda knew already how to measure for the different parts. There were a couple times where I measured and said that doesn't need to be drilled that deep. And then later I was putting it together and had the "ah ha" moment and said "oh...I see why he was drilling that deep". 

My first couple tries at making the #5 sized pens I was using the collet chuck to hold the cap and body during shaping and I had a lot of problems with it not being on center when I had to flip it around or re-chuck it up. And I even snapped a body one time since there was no internal support. So I decided to make mandrels to hold the section, body, and caps while doing shaping operations. I also very early on got the idea from George to make a die holder out of Delrin and that morphed into the idea to make a tap holder that was similar.  I had to make all new tooling for this larger pen.

So I thought I'd share a photograph of the tooling I made to create this #6 sized pen since it should give you an idea of what you need to make if you wanted to try to create similar mandrels. To make the mandrels you just need to basically make the inverse of the pen you need to hold. I usually keep the sections that are going into the pen just a little shorter than how deep I'll be drilling inside the body or cap.

This is a large copy of the image so you can really see the threading up close or you can view the attached thumbnail image but it's much harder to see everything:
http://www.threebuttes.com/pencreator/images/pens/Tooling.jpg


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## MartinPens (Nov 8, 2012)

Sign me up for the section holder and threaded mandrels!  : )
Nice setup. I made threaded mandrels from delrin, but I'm not happy with them yet. Thanks for sharing!


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## Andrew_K99 (Nov 8, 2012)

Looks great!

I too have made my mandrels from delrin, it's a big reason I want a metal lathe. 

AK


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## alxe24 (Nov 8, 2012)

How much it the raffle ticket. I want that, it looks awesome.


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## skiprat (Nov 9, 2012)

Gil, I like the metal parts but I'd be concerned about the delrin die holders.
First, the grub screws should be at about the 10 - 12 - 2 o'clock positions in the holder ( to match the die adjustment dimples ) Second, are the grubscrew threads in the delrin strong enough to apply enough pressure to adjust the diameter of the dies without stripping?


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## cnirenberg (Nov 9, 2012)

I will second what Steven said on the die holder.  I have put mine through the ringer, and it is the one from LMS.  I suppose if you don't want to thread SS the Delrin will work out fine......  Tooling looks great.


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## Gilrock (Nov 10, 2012)

skiprat said:


> Gil, I like the metal parts but I'd be concerned about the delrin die holders.
> First, the grub screws should be at about the 10 - 12 - 2 o'clock positions in the holder ( to match the die adjustment dimples ) Second, are the grubscrew threads in the delrin strong enough to apply enough pressure to adjust the diameter of the dies without stripping?


 
Yeah I didn't know what I was doing when I made them. I noticed those dimples later and thought...hey it would probably have been a good idea to line up the set screws with those. But on the topic of adjusting the diameter of the die....I didn't know I needed to adjust it. I've been happy with how my parts have been threading together. I don't know how to know what the proper adjustment would be. What I did was design the delrin holder so that the die just barely fit in the hole which gave it some contact resistance around the edge. Then I'm careful not to tighten the set screws very much because they were only to prevent the die from spinning. I have used the dies to cut threads on the steel rods for my #5 mandrels not pictured above. And they work easily on aluminum and acrylic.

Maybe I've gotten lucky since I don't know what I'm doing with the dies. It looked like the dies had a screw in them that set the diameter so I thought they came preset.


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## creativewriting (Nov 13, 2012)

Gil that is some great tooling.  I did have a quick question about the die holders.  The idea of making them out of delrin is awesome.  Do these go on a slide bar to hold them in the tail stock?  With the price of delrin it would be great to make a holder for each die and then just slide them on and off the bar for quick changes.


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## Gilrock (Nov 13, 2012)

Yeah to hold them in the tail stock I have a keyless drill chuck and I cut a piece of 1/4" steel rod.  Then just drill a 1/4" hole all the way through the delrin holders.  Yeah at first I was changing out the die's inside the holder or designing them to hold a die on each end.  Then I got lazy and found it easier to just make a delrin holder for each die.

I've actually gotten fairly good with using these tap and die holders with the lathe spinning.  I haven't ruined any pieces yet.  You just need a loose grip so the delrin holder will spin in your hand if it encounters any resistance or bottoms out.


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## flyrod (Nov 13, 2012)

*rookie question....*

OK, I'm up for giving it a try....where's the best place to buy delrin?


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## lorbay (Nov 13, 2012)

flyrod said:


> OK, I'm up for giving it a try....where's the best place to buy delrin?



Penturners Products!
Enco - Guaranteed Lowest Prices on Machinery, Tools and Shop Supplies

Lin.


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## creativewriting (Nov 13, 2012)

Thanks.   Is that 2" stock you used?  Looks like I need to order some so it's here when my lathe arrives.  I can't wait!!!


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## Gilrock (Nov 15, 2012)

I bought 2" Delrin from Enco...they had it to my house in like 2 days but I think they are only 1 state away.  If you want the white stuff select material called "Acetal".  Here's a link to a 2" diameter piece that's 2' long....for around $35.  If you you only plan to make 1 or 2 holders you could get by with buying 1 foot.  I ended up turning most of my holders down to 1.5" except for the die holder that holds the 14mm 1.5" die.

Enco - Guaranteed Lowest Prices on Machinery, Tools and Shop Supplies


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## RogerBean (Nov 17, 2012)

Gil,
Just goes to show, I guess, that a man who makes nice clean tooling, also makes nice pens, and vice versa.  Nice work.
Roger


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## Sawdust46 (Nov 21, 2012)

I'm preparing to attempt kitless and you have provided some very helpful information.  I let you know how it turns out in a few months!  Thanks.


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