# No wonder why selling hand made pens, is though...!



## robutacion

G'day folks,

This is not the first time I share with IAP members, some of my finds and in this case, relates to Chinese make Fountain pens, stainless and black.

I have seen these on sale about 1 year ago, they were first under AU$3.00 each, with time they keep raising prices but every so slightly, with discounted prices on quantities.

About 1 month ago, I decided to buy some, 3 stainless and 3 black and see with my own eyes how well constructed they are or not, they certainly look pretty in the images.

Today I got the pens, 3 of each as I order, no ink as I had some here.

Now, I can't tell you, how long they will last with use looking this good, the nibs write smooth and I particularly like of the closing cap positive click with no movement after closed.

So, what is my point...???

Well, my first thoughts were, could I used them to make some modifications ie., replacing the barrels with wood or any other modifications I could think of but, after having them in my hands, I don't want to change anything really...!

I don't make pens for sale, I make them as gifts so, I don't have any specific use for these appart from sing them to demonstrate why, making hand made pens and getting a decent value for them, has not been easy and will only get worse with the Chinese QA improving in this fashion.

The price I saw today is about AU$4.40, I paid just under AU$4.00 a month ago, they are still a great value for the money but, very bad news for pen makers not yet established in the pen market, as a pen maker, how can I ever compete with this on places like ebay, Etsa and so many other places..???

Make your own decisions, I'm only the messenger...!

Baoer 3035 Stainless Medium Nib 0.5mm Fountain Pens Sale-Banggood.com

Cheers
George


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## jttheclockman

Did you ever buy a Jinhao pen ???  I did about 2 years ago to see what many people were claiming and I have to tell you for $3 the pen is very good quality and is ornate just enough. I wish I could duplicate the blanks used. As you mentioned the caps are a snap cap that is tight and wish more companies would employ them. No threads except for the nib and filler which is clean cut threads and perfect. I was impressed to say the least. How they do it is beyond me. I bought 2 just to see, one rollerball and one fountain. Makes you think long and hard. Why do people buy my pens


This is the fountain pen I bought. Talk about a classy pen. I bought it to see what the blank look like. Looks better in person. Sure hate saying this. I saw someone selling for $9 on ebay. I bought mine for $4 and $3 for a rollerball which I can not find. (not surprising)  Also bought it on ebay because free delivery.


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## robutacion

Wow, talking about "bling...!"

Here we are with 2 extremes of pen design, the ones I purchase as a very simple and clean line and yours, which has a phenomenal amount of enriched work and platings colours so, the sentiment you shared is the very same of mine and that is, how can we compete and why do most people pay between $25.00 to $250.00 for a pen when they have these readily available to them..???

Don't take me wrong, I know that, this is not a benefit to anyone that makes pens or pen materials for a living or, to increase their low income, and I would be viciously scenic if I would be offering these for sale in my web-store for $15.00 or more and make lost of sales, that would be totally wrong so, buying 6 pens from this people has stoped 6 pens to be sold elsewhere however, this can turn into a double edged sword, why..???

Well, if the manufacturer runs out of stock but, they didn't sell as planned, they will probably stop making them however, if everyone runs into their web-sites and purchase lots of them, it may create to the vendor an assumption that, if is selling this well and this fast, they may consider producing more of them, and we would only get things worse.

So, sharing this info among our members, serves a very different purpose than, share it outside of it/public.

Lets hope the majority of the general public, that still appreciates a good hand-made pen and that, is willing to part with some good dollars, is kept away from this type market, for as long as we can...!

What do you thing, could be a feasible solution...???

Cheers
George


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## Sappheiros

Wow! I've got one of those Jinhao fountain pens, that exact style, sitting on a shelf as I write this!

I think there will never be anything to worry about.  People who buy pens buy them for their story, even if they were made out of some long lost wood, but because someone put their essence into it, in a way.  It's like someone who doesn't care about the details of the pen isn't going to buy it and neither would you want them to.  It's almost like adopting out pens.

As someone who has bought that Jinhao, who likes purchasing those gimmicky pens every now and then, I don't prize those above the rest of my pens.  They may be fun, but I really feel like my hand-turned pens are mightier than the sword.


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## MikeinSC

I own more Jinhao's than I should. Many not even used yet. I especially like the 599's which are Lamy knockoffs. I go back and forth right not between the Jinhao's and my Esterbrooks.


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## jttheclockman

George 

You will never stop this and in fact more and more are being produced by other makers.. Here is a USA seller.  Look at the list of Chinese pens he has.Then he sells more expensive pens too on the same site. 

His Nibs.com homepage -- fine fountain pens and writing supplies

I ask you though what is the difference between these type pens and the people who sell pens like we make on Ebay or Itsy for just about cost or even below cost and you are trying to sell the same pen a couple pages over for far more than that. That too is a kicker.  

It would be an interesting study to see what actually drives people to spend so much money on a pen when these imports are available. This is a little more than comparing our hand made pens to a Bic.pen Interesting.


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## robutacion

jttheclockman said:


> George
> 
> You will never stop this and in fact more and more are being produced by other makers.. Here is a USA seller.  Look at the list of Chinese pens he has.Then he sells more expensive pens too on the same site.
> 
> His Nibs.com homepage -- fine fountain pens and writing supplies
> 
> I ask you though what is the difference between these type pens and the people who sell pens like we make on Ebay or Itsy for just about cost or even below cost and you are trying to sell the same pen a couple pages over for far more than that. That too is a kicker.
> 
> It would be an interesting study to see what actually drives people to spend so much money on a pen when these imports are available. This is a little more than comparing our hand made pens to a Bic.pen Interesting.



I agree, and I ask the same question myself, the very reason why I decided to open the subject with an example that I knew of but obviously, the issue is a lot larger and wide-spread than I thought.

Nevertheless, I believe the issue itself is a good one to discuss, new pen turners do not need to be too scared, their situation will probably be stationary for some time before they either expand and move away.

The way I see it, the only area and or fact that will always give the hand-making pens the upper hand is the materials they use on their pen, particularly wood, any other man made product will never match the real wood but with that said, there are woods and there are woods, if you know what I mean...!

Cheers
George


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## maxwell_smart007

You can buy wooden furniture from ikea, or you can buy it from a craftsman.  The latter will never replace the former, but there's a market for each.


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## jttheclockman

robutacion said:


> jttheclockman said:
> 
> 
> 
> George
> 
> You will never stop this and in fact more and more are being produced by other makers.. Here is a USA seller.  Look at the list of Chinese pens he has.Then he sells more expensive pens too on the same site.
> 
> His Nibs.com homepage -- fine fountain pens and writing supplies
> 
> I ask you though what is the difference between these type pens and the people who sell pens like we make on Ebay or Itsy for just about cost or even below cost and you are trying to sell the same pen a couple pages over for far more than that. That too is a kicker.
> 
> It would be an interesting study to see what actually drives people to spend so much money on a pen when these imports are available. This is a little more than comparing our hand made pens to a Bic.pen Interesting.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I agree, and I ask the same question myself, the very reason why I decided to open the subject with an example that I knew of but obviously, the issue is a lot larger and wide-spread than I thought.
> 
> Nevertheless, I believe the issue itself is a good one to discuss, new pen turners do not need to be too scared, their situation will probably be stationary for some time before they either expand and move away.
> 
> The way I see it, the only area and or fact that will always give the hand-making pens the upper hand is the materials they use on their pen, particularly wood, any other man made product will never match the real wood but with that said, there are woods and there are woods, if you know what I mean...!
> 
> Cheers
> George
Click to expand...


And this is the crux of what I preach so many times. Do not be afraid to make the blanks. Think outside the box. Use the imagination. Do what others are not and separate yourself from others. Not hard to do.


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## plantman

Hell !! I might as well put my 2 cents in here as well !! I do have a number of Jinhao pens in my collection. I like dragons !! Other than PSI's new dragon pen kit, you can't buy a kit anywhere else. I also agree with George and John, the quality, craftsmanship, and price are hard to beat !! I bought about a dozen of the pearl dragon ink pens, for about $5 each, several years ago just to get the gold and silver nibs to use in kitless pens I was making. I still don't have the heart to take them apart, they are works of art. And, if you think these $4-$6 pens are great, try purchasing some of their more expensive ( $50-$100 ) pens. I also had Jinhao  custom make 3 pens for our 50th wedding anniversary several years back. They were their stock line of pens, but cast in gold with garnet jewels instead of crystals. It took about 3 months to make them, but was well worth the wait !! So much for imports !! I think the reason people will pay up for the pens we make was well covered by John. They are craftsman made, one of a kind works of art, that you will never see exactly again. Many have an interesting story or history behind them. And people love to pass on stories !! You can make 10 pens out of the same board, and no two would be exactly alike. If you want to sell pens for top dollar you must have unique pens that are outside the box. They may not have to be WOW pens, just something the guy or gal in the next booth doesn't have also. Here is the fault I see with the new pens kits that are being sold today by PSI and others. There is nothing wrong with the kits or designs, they are fantastic !! But everyone in the world has made them and only the blank may be different from one to another. And guess where they are manufactured. Most in CHINA !! The kits today no longer leave anything, other than the blanks, to discern one from the other. There is no outside the box thinking required to make an impressive looking pen anymore. Everyone has there own idea as to what they like and how much they want to spend on a given item. If price was the major factor, we all would be using BIC's !!    Jim  S


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## jttheclockman

I agree Jim with your statement about the new line of PSI kits. Someone got a boatload of money to keep these themed pen kits coming. One dies down another is there to replace it. All built on the same chasis. To me all over the top and not in a good way. People sell these things but the kit is the focal point and not the blank at all. 

With that said. Take the pen I shown and say it sells for $9 as i seen on ebay. What are they getting for the parts???  We all know the labor is low but the parts. Now take the PSI kits those too a china made. why are they not pennies instead of dollars. Someone or groups of someones is making alot of money. Makes you wonder. And then we are competing with these same people on a finished product. Ouch.


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## Quality Pen

How come montblanc want mentioned yet?


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## jttheclockman

Quality Pen said:


> How come montblanc want mentioned yet?



Can you please explain this question???


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## LanceD

I own several Jinhao X750's but I replaced the stock medium nibs with fine and extra fine nibs from Goulet.com. Some of the best writers I've ever used. Most of the pens were under 5.00 each and the upgrade nib was 15.00. The stock nibs were a hit or miss.  

I also don't understand the Mont Blanc question. The topic was about the quality of low end pens from China which includes Jinhao, Hero and Bauer.


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## Quality Pen

Lovely discussion. 

The montblanc thing is interesting because when we talk about price there's both always someone who sells way less. I mean here we are talking about finished products lots than our cost. 

But on the other end we have montblanc. I have a nice one from years ago. It's a fine pen. But when you look at it..  it is incredibly... well... simple should i say?  

And yet, people buy these in large numbers and pay hundreds... often far more than the pens we make yet the Montblanc is arguably far less interesting as well as being mass produced. 

The whole concept is interesting but the one thing i know it's that there can be 4 gas stations at an intersection selling 3 different gasolines to consumers and they'll all make sales to stay in business in some amazing way.


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## Skie_M

But are these pens from china actually being made by hand one at a time or are they pressed and stamped out of an assembly line?

We sell "The Personal Touch" ... and that's the bottom line.


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## Sappheiros

Skie_M said:


> But are these pens from china actually being made by hand one at a time or are they pressed and stamped out of an assembly line?
> 
> We sell "The Personal Touch" ... and that's the bottom line.



This:


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## jttheclockman

Skie_M said:


> But are these pens from china actually being made by hand one at a time or are they pressed and stamped out of an assembly line?
> 
> We sell "The Personal Touch" ... and that's the bottom line.




Let me ask the 10cent question here being you brought it up. What is actually the difference from what they do to what most do here??? Unless you are making a kitless pen or putting some effort in a blank such as casting your own or segmenting, what is the difference. Take a piece of acrylic drill a hole and ten minutes later it is done. You press in those same kit parts they made. Their assembly line is probably made up of people doing just that. The blanks are probably made off site. When we say hand made what is actually hand made??? Now where we differ is the custom things and that is the "Personal touch" side of things in my eyes. 

As far as the Mont Blanc comment I still do not get it. Remember if you are comparing to names they carry weight with their name alone.


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## Smitty37

If I have a graduating relative that I want to give a pen as a graduation gift - I'm going to spend more than $3.00/$5.00 for it.  

No craftsman will ever compete on cost/price with the same item mass produced.  But having said that, the cheap pens are not your competition, their competition for Bic and Papermate.  

There is a certain prestige in owing something that is custom made - that applies even if the factory made item is a little better and a lot cheaper.  I have mostly cottage furniture in my house...some of it was factory made and some of it I made.  All of it has a hand made look and it makes me smile when people assume that it was all custom made and purchased from the same place.


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## Sappheiros

It's also highly individualized.  I make whatever strikes my mood, but when I first started, I told my dad to pick a blank that he liked best.  I handpicked a blank for my sister to go with a platinum slimline kit, based on what she had wanted (a skinny pen with silver instead of gold).

We can personalize quite easily, while if I wanted Montblanc to make something special just for me, I'd have to sell a kidney or seven.


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## jttheclockman

Sappheiros said:


> It's also highly individualized.  I make whatever strikes my mood, but when I first started, I told my dad to pick a blank that he liked best.  I handpicked a blank for my sister to go with a platinum slimline kit, based on what she had wanted (a skinny pen with silver instead of gold).
> 
> We can personalize quite easily, while if I wanted Montblanc to make something special just for me, I'd have to sell a kidney or seven.




Again, you do not have Mont Blanc's name. You do not even have Jinhao's name. You can not compare. Yes you can customize because you are one man team doing this as hobby.


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## Dan Masshardt

Selling pens is not hard.   

One key is to realize that you're not selling pens.  Your selling gifts for certain people for certain occasions.  

Try to sell a fairly generic pen even though handcrafted and you're competing with eBay and Chinese manufacturing. 

But somebody looking for a special Father's Day gift or a gift for a hunter or a gift for a pilot will never find that cheap stuff.


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## plantman

jttheclockman said:


> Skie_M said:
> 
> 
> 
> But are these pens from china actually being made by hand one at a time or are they pressed and stamped out of an assembly line?
> 
> We sell "The Personal Touch" ... and that's the bottom line.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Let me ask the 10cent question here being you brought it up. What is actually the difference from what they do to what most do here??? Unless you are making a kitless pen or putting some effort in a blank such as casting your own or segmenting, what is the difference. Take a piece of acrylic drill a hole and ten minutes later it is done. You press in those same kit parts they made. Their assembly line is probably made up of people doing just that. The blanks are probably made off site. When we say hand made what is actually hand made??? Now where we differ is the custom things and that is the "Personal touch" side of things in my eyes.
> 
> As far as the Mont Blanc comment I still do not get it. Remember if you are comparing to names they carry weight with their name alone.
Click to expand...


  Let's look at this from a different prospective, and change the subject from pens to cars !! Why do some people buy a Roles Royce, some a BMW, while others buy a Ford Fusion. They are all happy with their purchase, and it fills the need they have or can afford at the present time. They all will get you from point A to point B. I won't go into the workings of the human mind or ego here, but I hope you see what I am trying to say. Different strokes for different folks !!  Jim  S


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## jttheclockman

Jim, I will be honest with you, I have no idea where this question has gone. It started out as a simple observation. I am out of this one. :biggrin:


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## plantman

I agree with you John !! I had to go back to George's original thread to see what this was all about in the first place. For that reason I am also out.   Jim  S


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## Smitty37

I thought the thread was staying on topic better than most.:biggrin:


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## Kroozerdave

A point in favour of those pen turner made pens is where you can modify or cater to a users wants or needs. Only 1 of the Chinese fountain pens I had really suited me and that was one I have never seen since - heavier and longer almost brass pipe in wall thickness. To really get something long enough to suit me I would need approx 7 inches long, which leads to needing a person who understands their materials and ability to go outside those normal pen kit boxes. Also those who upgrade the nibs will find true fountain pen people appreciating this too. One strength his nibs is that he tunes the nibs on the Chinese and other factory pens as part of the buying experience, makes a major difference to usability of the pen.
When comparing selling prices check out some of the more niche pen shops and you will find new pens in the hundreds to thousands of dollar price range. Not something a beginner can afford, however buying custom ink colours etc the desire for better pens does happen.


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