# Alternate ivory disaster



## Rifleman1776 (Jul 24, 2009)

I am.....correction...WAS....in the middle of making my most expensive pen yet. It, maybe someday, will be an Emperor. Kit is $55.00.  The material I was using is a form of alternate ivory that, at one time, I had aspirations of selling. Long story short, that didn't come about. This material is known as white paper micarta, or a/k/a white paper phenolic micarta. It is widely used for knife handles and pistol grips. It is a very different product than what Craft Supplies, and others, sell for pen blanks.
This stuff is very hard to turn. And, I do mean HARD. For half a blank, I had to sharpen my Henry Taylor HSS skew three times. Plus, it gets very hot, as does the tool. I paused frequently to let it cool. But, perhaps not enough. While nearing the end of turning the second half (I don't use a mandrel and only do one half at a time) it suddenly blasted in half on me. I don't know why, excess heat maybe. Dunno fer sure. :dunno:  However, as can be seen in the picture, the interior of the broken half doesn't have much glue on it. I use 5 min. epoxy. Maybe the fit was so close it all got squeegeed out. Again, dunno. :dunno: Maybe thin CA would be better. This piece of alternate ivory cost about $10.00 but I'm grateful my $55.00 kit is still intact. Not sure what I'll put on it now as I was really looking forward to this ivory, it really is a beautiful material and looks far more like genuine ivory than the CS stuff. I have a blank of white bowling ball material I got from the circulating box, may use that. Or may use some alternate jade. Oh, did I mention I am not a happy camper at the moment? Plus, I'm not in a mood to go out and kill another one of those alternate elephants right now.


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## jleiwig (Jul 24, 2009)

if it was the upper half that broke, I'd think about doing another material on the bottom half, maybe some ebony.  Then you could have your ebony and ivory pen.


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## Rifleman1776 (Jul 24, 2009)

jleiwig said:


> if it was the upper half that broke, I'd think about doing another material on the bottom half, maybe some ebony.  Then you could have your ebony and ivory pen.



Thanks. But, I have made the decision to kill another alternate elephant. Will finish the pen per my original idea. I'll have some expense in it though. The additional cost will be about $15.00. Add that to the first hunk of AE, plus the kit, I'll have more than $85.00 invested.
BTW, an all ebony Emp. could look fine.


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## randyrls (Jul 24, 2009)

Sorry to hear of your problems Frank.

It looks like the pieces are both there.  I would take a scrap of the material, create a small pile of sanding dust, Reglue the pieces to the tube and fill any gaps with thin CA and the sanding dust.

From the photo it appears that the tube may not be scuffed?  The brass tube must be roughened with sandpaper or plumbers cloth to make sure the glue gets good adhesion.  There is a lacquer or coating applied to the tubes to prevent tarnish and it can prevent the glue from adhering.  That is why it is easier to remove glue from the inside of the tube than the outside.

Where did you get the material?  

You may want to consider a carbide tipped tool.  I use such a tool to work with very hard Trustone blanks.

As Ron White says, "If life hands you a lemon, make lemonade, or go find a person who got vodka and have a party!!!!!!!


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## Russianwolf (Jul 24, 2009)

looks to me like it broke right along the grain. nice and straight and flat. Glue it back together and see how it looks, you may not even notice the cracks.


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## txcwboy (Jul 24, 2009)

As a knifemaker also, I would that IS NOT Micarta. Ive never seen it break. Its a laminate. I would bet its closer to Ivory Corian. I justed turned some Alt Ivory I received from one of the blank makers free as a sample and it was very brittle and I had chunking issues. Sorry to hear about the loss.
Dave


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## desertrat (Jul 24, 2009)

White paper micarta is made up with layers of paper much like plywood. Thats why it looks like real ivory as it ages. Sounds and looks like too much pressure caused it to split along one layer of the paper. I've used it for custom knife handles for many years. Key is to go slow and keep it as cool as possible.
Good luck
John H


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## ssajn (Jul 24, 2009)

The first piece of alt ivory I tried to turn blew up on me but on an end. My fault, I tried using a spindle gouge and got a catch. I was able to salvage it by making an ebony and ivory pen. Since then I haven't had any problems using a sharp skew and have now turned quite a bit of it. I got my AI from Ed at exoticblanks.com.  He's got good prices and quality stuff. 
Dave


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## wood-of-1kind (Jul 24, 2009)

randyrls said:


> You may want to consider a carbide tipped tool.  I use such a tool to work with very hard Trustone blanks.




That is a good tip Randy. I bet Frank knows where a "poor man" can make such a tool.:wink:


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## ed4copies (Jul 24, 2009)

*Just to clarify*

Thanks for the plug, Dave.  

Frank TRIED to make this clear, but the headline doesn't.

The material Frank is using is NOT the alternative ivory that I import.

"This material is known as white paper micarta, or a/k/a white paper phenolic micarta."  Which is also referred to as alternate ivory.  

Two different materials, VERY SIMILAR names.


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## alamocdc (Jul 24, 2009)

That's too bad, Frank. As has been said, I'd scuff the tube and glue it back together. If it doesn't look good, then I'd use a new piece. Should be pretty stuff when finished, though.


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## Texatdurango (Jul 24, 2009)

Rifleman1776 said:


> .... While nearing the end of turning the second half (I don't use a mandrel and only do one half at a time) it suddenly blasted in half on me. I don't know why, excess heat maybe. Dunno fer sure. :dunno: However, as can be seen in the picture, the interior of the broken half doesn't have much glue on it. I use 5 min. epoxy. Maybe the fit was so close it all got squeegeed out. Again, dunno. :dunno: Maybe thin CA would be better. ....


Frank,  If it were me doing it over again I would focus on the red text above as I think they contributed heavily to the cause.

I turned a truestone blank once and wasn't paying attention to the heat it generated and actually had the blank spin on the tube even though it was glued.

When I started turning I used CA for everything, then after examining a few failures I realized that the CA wasn't the best choice for gluing blanks and that sanding the brass was also important.

When I switched to epoxy I still had a few failures and noticed that in every instance, very little glue was left between the brass and blanks.

I started questioning why kit makers recommended certain size drill bits, and what were they basing their sizes on?  In several kits, the bit recommended barely allowed for a tube, let alone any glue.  I would wager that a high percentage of failures is due to not enough glue because everyone is following kit recommendations!

With some kits I started using larger bits which allowed a thicker glue line and haven't had a failure since.  That is what I would focus on regardless of what material the blank is made of.

Hope your next blank works out better for you.


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## edman2 (Jul 24, 2009)

It is my understanding that "heat" is a killer of ca glue. Since this material gets so hot you might try some other type of glue that might not turn loose as easy. That would eliminate maybe one possible cause.


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## Rifleman1776 (Jul 24, 2009)

randyrls said:


> Sorry to hear of your problems Frank.
> 
> It looks like the pieces are both there.  I would take a scrap of the material, create a small pile of sanding dust, Reglue the pieces to the tube and fill any gaps with thin CA and the sanding dust.
> 
> ...



I agree, the tube 'appears' to not be scuffed. But, I, fer certain, fer sure, did rough it with 40 grit sandpaper. I always do. I'm not inclined to glue it back together, especially not for a high end pen. I have carbide but will use much greater caution with the heat build up on my next go around.  But, thanks for the suggestions.


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## Rifleman1776 (Jul 24, 2009)

alamocdc said:


> That's too bad, Frank. As has been said, I'd scuff the tube and glue it back together. If it doesn't look good, then I'd use a new piece. Should be pretty stuff when finished, though.



Hi Billy. Yep, I'm going alternate elephant hunting today. BTW, it was scuffed, doesn't show in photo.


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## Rifleman1776 (Jul 24, 2009)

edman2 said:


> It is my understanding that "heat" is a killer of ca glue. Since this material gets so hot you might try some other type of glue that might not turn loose as easy. That would eliminate maybe one possible cause.



Yep, sumptin' else to worry about. ;-)


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## workinforwood (Jul 24, 2009)

Gorrilla glue..that's what you need.  If the hole is so tight that most of the glue comes off, it won't matter, because the glue still on will expand and gold nice and tight.  Heat is far less a problem with gorilla than it is with CA and epoxy.  I'd glue it back together..what do you have to lose..a broken blank?  How about having someone drip water on your chisel and blank as you turn it down?


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## workinforwood (Jul 24, 2009)

Oh...I see you said you are not going to glue it back together.  Just remember this though Frank...it was glued together before you broke it! :wink:


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## ed4copies (Jul 24, 2009)

workinforwood said:


> Oh...I see you said you are not going to glue it back together.  Just remember this though Frank...it was glued together before you broke it! :wink:



Once in a while we get a gem of wisdom.  

*THIS*
is one of those moments!!!​


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## Rifleman1776 (Jul 24, 2009)

workinforwood said:


> Oh...I see you said you are not going to glue it back together.  Just remember this though Frank...it was glued together before you broke it! :wink:



Yuk, yuk, yuk. ;-)


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## Rifleman1776 (Jul 24, 2009)

When this blew out, the first thing I did was to explore much of my seldom used vocabulary. Then I wrote my post, saved it in Notepad and hastily took the picture.
I never did really examine the gory remains until a few minutes ago.
Surprise, the 'unscuffed' tube is really COMPLETELY COVERED WITH EPOXY GLUE. The glue did adhere to the tube. I am now convinced that heat was really the culprit. Next time I turn this stuff, I'll first bandsaw down as much as is safely possible then turn with frequent long-long pauses for cooling.
The way this stuff comes from the dead alternate elephant, there will be enough for two full blanks, and I'll have another 1/2 left over. Dunno if I'll personally use it or maybe sell, trade, give away or burn at full moon while doing a voo-doo dance over it.


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## ed4copies (Jul 24, 2009)

Rifleman1776 said:


> When this blew out, the first thing I did was to explore much of my seldom used vocabulary. Then I wrote my post, saved it in Notepad and hastily took the picture.
> I never did really examine the gory remains until a few minutes ago.
> Surprise, the 'unscuffed' tube is really COMPLETELY COVERED WITH EPOXY GLUE. The glue did adhere to the tube. I am now convinced that heat was really the culprit. Next time I turn this stuff, I'll first bandsaw down as much as is safely possible then turn with frequent long-long pauses for cooling.
> The was this stuff comes from the dead alternate elephant, there will be enough for two full blanks, and I'll have another 1/2 left over. Dunno if I'll personally use it or maybe sell, trade, give away or burn at full moon while doing a voo-doo dance over it.



I expect you could make a few bucks if you sold tickets to this event!!


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## elody21 (Jul 24, 2009)

Rifleman,
I know this is not the same but I could send you a 3/4" piece of Ivory Corian. It makes a very beautiful pen and no seams in this piece! Alice


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## Rifleman1776 (Jul 25, 2009)

elody21 said:


> Rifleman,
> I know this is not the same but I could send you a 3/4" piece of Ivory Corian. It makes a very beautiful pen and no seams in this piece! Alice



Thanks, Alice
I gave away about 50 pounds of Corian not too long ago. Not fond of turning the stuff. But, I do appreciate the offer.
A solution may have come along. I'll post later.


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## leehljp (Jul 25, 2009)

I have a difficult time mastering the skew and sometimes shaky hands make it worse. But from what I hear, the skew is the way to go with this, and yet I really need chisels that lay flat on the tool rest.

So, for me - I have taken to sanding down to size when I get to within 3/32 to 1/16 inch on delicate and hard to manage material. It sure takes more time - usually about 10 to 15 minutes for that little bit, but when I value the blank more than my time, it is safer. On the one of a kind, special pens like that - I jump away from the tool quickly and go the safe route of sanding. Of course, I don't do this on most pens.


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## randyrls (Jul 25, 2009)

leehljp said:


> So, for me - I have taken to sanding down to size when I get to within 3/32 to 1/16 inch on delicate and hard to manage material. It sure takes more time - usually about 10 to 15 minutes for that little bit, but when I value the blank more than my time, it is safer. On the one of a kind, special pens like that - I jump away from the tool quickly and go the safe route of sanding. Of course, I don't do this on most pens.



Others have commented on the "80 Grit gouge" but I've only used it when I had to.  That's my story and I'm sticking to it!


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## TurnaPen (Jul 25, 2009)

Definitely make sure you scuff the brass tube, and when putting the 5 min epoxy on, use a cotton bud to line the inside of the blank with it also, this will make sure it gets glued all over. Amos


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## Rifleman1776 (Jul 25, 2009)

leehljp said:


> I have a difficult time mastering the skew and sometimes shaky hands make it worse. But from what I hear, the skew is the way to go with this, and yet I really need chisels that lay flat on the tool rest.
> 
> So, for me - I have taken to sanding down to size when I get to within 3/32 to 1/16 inch on delicate and hard to manage material. It sure takes more time - usually about 10 to 15 minutes for that little bit, but when I value the blank more than my time, it is safer. On the one of a kind, special pens like that - I jump away from the tool quickly and go the safe route of sanding. Of course, I don't do this on most pens.



Hank, the skew does lay flat. But, with this material, it acted more as a scraper than a cutting tool, as with wood.
I do some of the final shaping with sandpaper, but only in the last couple thousandths range. Seems to me that to remove much material a coarse grit would be required. And, some of those would scratch so deeply that they might not be able to be sanded out. I'll just take my time and allow ample cooling at intervals.


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## Rifleman1776 (Jul 25, 2009)

WoodenInk said:


> Definitely make sure you scuff the brass tube, and when putting the 5 min epoxy on, use a cotton bud to line the inside of the blank with it also, this will make sure it gets glued all over. Amos



In this case, the glue was where it should be. As much as I suspect heat to be the villain, I am going to scratch the inside of the drilled blank before inserting the glued up tube. This should give a better grip. But, I'll still take precautions against excessive heat build up.


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## ssajn (Jul 25, 2009)

leehljp said:


> I have a difficult time mastering the skew and sometimes shaky hands make it worse. But from what I hear, the skew is the way to go with this, and yet I really need chisels that lay flat on the tool rest.
> 
> Another tool I have started using and like for Alternate Ivory and acrylics is the Sorby or PSI copy of the Spindlemaster.
> 
> ...


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## Rifleman1776 (Jul 25, 2009)

*project saved*

Well, as luck would have it, last night, after closing the big door on my shop I heard a ruckus. Went to look and came face to trunk with a genuine alternate elephant that got locked in. I think he may have been attracted by the corn I put out in the deer feeder.  They aren’t very large so I saw an opportunity to finish my pen with some new alternate ivory.
	After wrestling him to the ground, I removed one tusk then let him go.
	Shown is what I got. Enough to finish my Emperor, make another pen, maybe a Patriot and some that I segmented. The black in between is paper thin ebony. I’ll attempt that at another time.
	Watch for either my finished Emp. or a report of me going completely bonkers after blowing another blank.


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## fernhills (Jul 25, 2009)

Take two Aspirin, see me in the morning.  Carl


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## Rifleman1776 (Jul 27, 2009)

*finished*

Well, I finished it. For a while I thought the project was jinxed. Assembly was pretty straightforward except one part was screwed into a completely unrelated part and when I put it all in it was, of course, not right. I had a pucker moment disassembling without crushing or scratching the part. But it worked. It will be on display for sale in the gift shop soon. My highest priced pen yet. Of course, I hope it sells. But, a big reason I want it there is for marketing purposes. This will be the top end item of my 'catalog', priced at $340.00, a $120.00 pen will look very affordable.


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## pianomanpj (Jul 27, 2009)

Frank,
That is gorgeous!! I'll bet even that alternate ivory elephant would be impressed enough to sell his other tusk to buy that pen!! :biggrin::biggrin:

Very well done!!


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## DurocShark (Jul 27, 2009)

It's beautiful, and worth the trouble.


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## CharlestonPenWorks (Jul 27, 2009)

I had a similar accident with Eugenes ivory blanks.  The whole bottom 1/4 inch of the upper pen cracked off while turning.  So I took this opportunity to add some Buffalo Horn (jet black) oops rings to the bottom of the top barrel and to the top of the bottom barrel.  It actually turned out nice.  Sometimes, oops can be a blessing.
DJ


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## byounghusband (Jul 27, 2009)

Frank,
I had a similar problem with the only Emporer I have turned....  Whoever is packaging these needs to "RTFI" better!!!:at-wits-end:



Rifleman1776 said:


> .......Assembly was pretty straightforward except one part was screwed into a completely unrelated part and when I put it all in it was, of course, not right. I had a pucker moment disassembling without crushing or scratching the part. But it worked. ........


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## Rifleman1776 (Jul 27, 2009)

byounghusband said:


> Frank,
> I had a similar problem with the only Emporer I have turned....  Whoever is packaging these needs to "RTFI" better!!!:at-wits-end:



Hey! Watcha griping about? For $55.00 wadda want? Sumptin' that's done right? ;-)


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## Jim15 (Jul 27, 2009)

Very elegant pen, looks great.


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## byounghusband (Jul 27, 2009)

Is it TOO much to ask???:befuddled::befuddled:



Rifleman1776 said:


> Hey! Watcha griping about? For $55.00 wadda want? Sumptin' that's done right? ;-)


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