# Sports logos



## skamrath1 (Aug 8, 2012)

I have a customer that wants some pens with sport team logos on them.I him I wasn't sure if I could legally use the logos but I could do team colors. So my question is can I use team logos without any repercussions?


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## Wright (Aug 8, 2012)

It is my understanding that you need to buy a license from the team or university in order to sell their stuff with logo on it. People tell me that is real expensive to purchase a license. Maybe someone else can add to this.


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## Haynie (Aug 8, 2012)

Safest answer is no you cannot use them.


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## MesquiteMan (Aug 8, 2012)

The logos are trademarked.  You can not use ANY trademark that you don't own without permission from the trademark owner.  Doing so is intellectual property theft and could land you in big legal troubles.


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## skamrath1 (Aug 8, 2012)

Yes I will stick with team colors lol


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## navycop (Aug 8, 2012)

You can use these. College Rod Decals | mudhole.com
They said before that it is okay to use their decals.


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## Haynie (Aug 8, 2012)

Mike's post sparked a memory

Sometime in the recent past I read an article about Disney losing a case where they were suing a woman making and selling kids clothes from material she bought at a fabric store.  IRC the judge said disney sold the material and the woman was just using what she legally bought that disney knew the material would be made into something else.  I can't find a link to the case though.

My pockets are not deep enough to test the water though.


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## Flaturner (Aug 8, 2012)

*TradeMarks and CopyRights*

The fair trade laws allow you to USE anything that you buy for your own pleasure, comfort, or enjoyment.  That is what the implied license that comes with you books, DVDs, CDs, etc. covers.  You cannot, for example, buy a music CD, transfer that to blank CDs and sell them, or for that matter, give them away. You can buy it, transfer it to your MP3 player, and listen to it while running, working, etc.  Your implied license allows you only to use it.  The same goes with Decals you buy.  The seller has a license to sell the item.  Your implied license it to USE the item.  It cannot be sold any more than the recorded music, movie, or whatever. Copy Right and Trade Mark laws are very specific and the penalties can run up to $100,000.  You can use them for YOUR OWN enjoyment.  I went through this with copy rights when I ran the sound system at our church and people would bring me a recording and ask me to give them 4 or 5 copies to give to their kids or neighbors.  I could not because of the liability to the church. (BTW those fines are even HIGHER.)  Check out 17 USC 506(a) and 18 USC 2319 for more information.

EDIT:  The case mentioned about the Disney fabric was in 2003 and was with someone named Tabberone.  Tabberone won but that was nearly 10 years ago and I wouldn't count on corporations having had the laws strengthened against such things.


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## PenMan1 (Aug 8, 2012)

Not only can you NOT use the logos, trademarks, et al., ALL of the major universities and pro teams (NFL, MLB, NHL, NBA) have trademarked thier colors. If you happen to "match" the trademarked color (not really possible, UNLESS you use a PMS wheel and deliberately TRY to match the trademarked color) they will also hunt you down like a mangie cayote! DAMHIKT!

Almost all of the sports trademarking and licensing is handled by one company. If you do a LOT of "team themes", you can get a license agreement. For a sh*T*Y team,  for about $300 plus 10 percent royalties.

For a team like the Cowboys, or Packers.......FORGET ABOUT IT!


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## PenMan1 (Aug 8, 2012)

navycop said:


> You can use these. College Rod Decals | mudhole.com
> They said before that it is okay to use their decals.


 
Sorry, Mike, but this is BAD information. Using these decals for ANYTHING other than private use is NOT ALLOWED and will land you in BIG TROUBLE!
It's call "repourpsing" and it is ILLEGAL. 

People and companies pay a LOT of money to get licensing agreements, THERE IS NO SHORT CUT. Using a decal sold for private use,  commercially is also theft of intellectual property!


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## el_d (Aug 8, 2012)

So what about a product that was purchased by the customer and you are asked to Clear cast it for them and charge for the pen only? 
 The pen would be the same price no matter what the customer wants on it. You make no profit from the licensed item


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## PenMan1 (Aug 9, 2012)

el_d said:


> So what about a product that was purchased by the customer and you are asked to Clear cast it for them and charge for the pen only?
> The pen would be the same price no matter what the customer wants on it. You make no profit from the licensed item


 

For that.....I'd consult an attorney. Mine said "are you a fool or what?"


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## PenMan1 (Aug 9, 2012)

I don't really understand what is hard about this. 

If you don't OWN the Trademark or have a WRITTEN License from the owner to use the Trademark for a specific purpose...IT IS THEFT of intellectual property.....END OF SENTENCE.

If an attorney tells you differently, I HOPE you have DEEP POCKETS!


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## Charlie_W (Aug 9, 2012)

So, is it okay to use a decal or team colors and give the pen as a gift?...no money exchange at all?

Also, I checked on logo decals from Mudhole some months ago. They had decals but they were pricey. Then they want $20.00 for shipping a couple of little decals!  They did not get my business...........


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## PenMan1 (Aug 9, 2012)

Charlie_W said:


> So, is it okay to use a decal or team colors and give the pen as a gift?...no money exchange at all?
> 
> Also, I checked on logo decals from Mudhole some months ago. They had decals but they were pricey. Then they want $20.00 for shipping a couple of little decals!  They did not get my business...........


 

The short answer is that it is STILL ILLEGAL. It DOESN'T MATTER WHAT YOU CHARGE or HOW MUCH YOU CHARGE..... YOU DIDN'T HAVE PERMISSION TO USE IT!

According to "Wessel, Rat and Scumbag", my legal advisors, EVEN IF someone brings you an artifact with a Tradmarked logo and you make something out of it, other that it's original license, you are JUST as guilty as Kinkos would be in making a Xerox copy of "Moby Dick" and charging you for the electricity used to make the copies.....EVEN IF YOU DON"T PROFIT FROM IT~


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## PenMan1 (Aug 9, 2012)

In the words of Wessel, Rat and Scumbag....If I owned a "first edition" of Moby Dick and damaged a page, it would be MUCH BETTER to buy a later edition of Moby Dick, rip out that page and paste it into the first edition. In that instance, I would have only violated ONE law.

If I duplicated the missing page, then inserted the duplicated the page into the "first edition", I voilate MANY LAWS!


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## plantman (Aug 9, 2012)

:cowboy::biggrin::biggrin: The nearest thing I have done to a sports logo is this. A purchased a lazor cut Fleur de lis from Lazerlinez. It comes with a black barrel and gold Fleur de lis inlay. I added gold and black stripes to the top and bottom, doubled tubed it, and used a PSI gold plated Vertex click pen kit. I made this for a friend of mine and gave it to him. He was thrilled! He also just happened to play for the New Orleans Saints. Not that there was any connection intended you understand. By the way, the last time I checked, Green Bay's licence fee was $100,000 +. Jim S


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## thewishman (Aug 9, 2012)

20 years ago I commissioned a custom logo for my line of firefighter clothing and had the design digitized for embroidery. Found out that my first embroiderer (and my second embroiderer) was using it to decorate their friend's/customer's items. Do you think I was right to be upset that my unique design was used without my knowledge and consent (or payment).


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## AnachitlPut (Aug 9, 2012)

so i can make myself a pen.


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## navycop (Aug 9, 2012)

I was at HD looking at the Glidden catalog they have of all the team colors. So if I made a pen, Navy, red, blue and silver--But I didn't call it Tennessee Titans colors; is that still the same? Anybody can buy these colors individually..


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## stonyloam (Aug 9, 2012)

skamrath1 said:


> Yes I will stick with team colors lol



You would want to be very careful, as stated team colors are trademarked too.  For example it might be OK to sell a blue and silver pen ("this is my blue and silver pen"), but you would never want to say it is a "Cowboys", or even a "team colors pen".  Even though the colors might not be an exact match to a teams colors they could say it was your intent to represent the team colors and could get you in trouble.


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## lago (Aug 9, 2012)

I was considering making some pens in some of the local high schools and also add decal of their mascot. Just had article in the paper a few weeks ago that 2 school districts north of Austin were considering a copyright on their logo, just as the college and pro teams do.

Lago


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## plantman (Aug 10, 2012)

*colors*



stonyloam said:


> skamrath1 said:
> 
> 
> > Yes I will stick with team colors lol
> ...


 
 Terry: As I understand it you can not trademark or copywrite a color such as, say, green & gold. You can however copywrite or trademark a formula to produce that dye lot required to make that color. If you change that formula just slightly, it's not the exact color anymore. Of course no one is going to give you the formula in the first place!! Same with a patent. If you change or improve on someone's patent, you can apply for a new patent. I think the main problem is someone representing thier item as being related to a team. This is against the law unless you have a written document saying you are licenced to sell this item as representation of that team. If you want to sell NFL pens, you will need a licence agreement from every team plus the NFL office. It would cost you millions. I think I would stay to colors and no logos. If someone asks if those are Green Bay colors, I would say "not exactly, but they are green and gold". I could be all wrong on this. There have been so many law suits lately that things may have changed. You could also check case to case and find different ruleings. Be careful!! If the buyer wants to call them Packer colors that's his choice, but don't represent them as such without that expensive piece of paper. Jim S

P.S. This reminds me of the thread were the guy was looking for green & gold blanks. And I related the story of the vender at the craft show in Crandon WI. that was selling "packer" green & gold pens. As soon as started asking about them he disapeared like a fart in a mitten. Actualy walked out of his own booth and quickly disapeared into the crowd. Leaving all his goods and money behind. I think he realized he said the wrong thing and did not have a licence to represent the Green Bay Packers.


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## Smitty37 (Aug 11, 2012)

plantman said:


> stonyloam said:
> 
> 
> > skamrath1 said:
> ...


 
I don't think you copyright a formula (you definately can't trade mark one you trade mark what you can see not the process of making it) I think you would have to patent it - if it is patentable.

You're right that they can not trade mark the colors.  Look at how many professional and college teams use some variation of red and white. Also, it isn't that unusual for professional or college teams to change colors. 

I bought some blanks awhile back and one of them was green and gold, I made two pens of that blank and to be honest I never gave it a thought that it was the Packer's colors.  But, if it had been green and silver I might have thought of the Eagles.....


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## plantman (Aug 11, 2012)

Smitty37 said:


> plantman said:
> 
> 
> > stonyloam said:
> ...


 
:redface::redface: Sorry Smitty, I got ahead of myself, you are correct, you can not trademark a formula, I should have said patent it. I do however think you can copywrite a formula. It would be treated the same as the score of a song or the words in that song. Again I may be wrong. There must be a lawyer or judge out there somewhere that could give us an exact answer on this. Jim S


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## navycop (Aug 11, 2012)

plantman;1431036 There must be a lawyer or judge out there somewhere that could give us an exact answer on this. Jim S[/QUOTE said:
			
		

> I emailed my friend. His wife is a judge (7th district court of appeals) back in Ohio.


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## Smitty37 (Aug 11, 2012)

plantman said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > plantman said:
> ...


Well my layman's position is that even if you can copyright a formula - a copyright only protects you from someone else publishing it or making and distributing copies of it. It does not protect you from someone using it. All kinds of "how to" instruction books are published and copyrighted - the holder of the copyright has no recourse against someone using information from them.


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## ashaw (Aug 11, 2012)

All team logos regardless of sport can be used as long as you purchase the licensing agreement from team and governing organization.  If I were Philadelphia Eagles the cost to use their logo starts at 1M dollars.  If the product does good in sales the next year it is 1.5 - 2m dollars.  The use the logos without permission will cost you big time.  

I have done college logos in the past and had to get permission from the college and that was for just one pen.  If I was doing more than one then I would to purchase the right to use.

Best thing to do is do not do it.

Alan


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## its_virgil (Aug 12, 2012)

Good advice Allan, but methinks it falls on deaf ears. There have been lots of posts written re: corporate and sports logos and pens shown using corporate logos, especially sports logos. I think it is just a matter of time before someone gets entangled in some legal issues.

I too have made a few single pens as gifts(for special people in my life) using university logos and I too obtained permission. The only pens I have made and sold using company logos were for the companies whose logos were on the pen.

I agree...it is best to not do it.

Do a good turn daiy!
Don



ashaw said:


> All team logos regardless of sport can be used as long as you purchase the licensing agreement from team and governing organization.
> 
> Best thing to do is do not do it.
> 
> Alan


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## Smitty37 (Aug 12, 2012)

There is a fair use doctrine that applies to trade marks that allows them to be used in certain cirumstances - you can almost always use them for personal purposes. i.e. They won't prevent you from painting their logo on your T-shirt and wearing the shirt yourself.  That is protected freedom of expression as long as it isn't commercial use.  You can probably do the same thing with a pen as long as the use is personal.


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## mwhatch (Aug 12, 2012)

Oklahoma State University sells a Crafters License for $100.00 a year. It allows you to sell up to 500 units or $2500 in annual sales with certain conditions.

Morton


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## Carl Fisher (Aug 12, 2012)

That's not bad.  I'd be willing to contact the local universities and ask about something like that.  I have 3 or 4 color groups that are good sellers but being able to put the logo on legally would be an even bigger boost.

I've actually done pens for a college and they provided me the logo and gave me permission to engrave it but it was for them to distribute as needed.


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## bmlewis (Sep 14, 2012)

In the Tabberone case, Tabberone actually filed for a summary judgement against Disney for cancelling their Ebay auctions of items made from licensed Disney fabric for resale.  This case was settled out of court with Disney admitting that the crafted items were not true derivatives of the original item and therefore were not infringing upon their copywright.  Following is a link to the settlement agreement: Settlement Agreement With Disney

Under those conditions, wouldn't using a piece of licensed fabric in a clear resin pen or a licensed logo decal on a pen fall under the same guidelines?  Is this any different than using Disney or Star Wars stamps in a pen? The original image is not altered in anyway and therefore would not qualify as a derivative of the original image.

I am not advocating for or against the use of team logos, just trying to understand the legality of the issue.  As the Tabberone issue was settled privately between two parties, I don't think this sets a truly legal precedent, but it does provide basis for further debate.


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