# Future of Pens



## PaulDoug (Jul 14, 2011)

I keep reading that more and more schools are going to stop teaching penmanship.  Hummm, I wonder what the will do for pens in the distant future.  Our Grand children may not be too interested in them.


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## penhead (Jul 14, 2011)

Sure...and when the power goes out, and nobody knows how to stroke the alphabet without a keyboard...those who have pens stockpiled will rule.. 

...and, and...I can see monks sitting in dark rooms transcribing huge volumes of books...

..or maybe to much imagination..or coffee..??


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## ed4copies (Jul 14, 2011)

That will depend on those of you who are 20-35.  IF you allow the schools to stop teaching your children, you will get what you ask for---a generation of illiterates.

As a parent you have a responsibility to your child---we have allowed government and schools to fulfill much of that responsibility, which does NOT relieve you of directing that fulfillment.

The past was in our hands (baby-boomers), now the future is in YOURS.  good luck.


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## renowb (Jul 14, 2011)

It could make them more valuable, a collectors item.


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## sbell111 (Jul 14, 2011)

Why would any school teach penmanship?  Back in the early seventies, when I was in elementary school, we did not learn 'penmanship'.  We learned how to form letters, of course, but I have a hard time believing that anyone has proposed that children ought not be taught how to make a 'G'.


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## PaulDoug (Jul 14, 2011)

Well, let's see, not that many monks and they use reeds or something, and how many collectors well there be.  Probably more makers than collectors....:wink:


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## ed4copies (Jul 14, 2011)

Steve you make an excellent point.  Hopefully this is a discussion of semantics---


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## ctubbs (Jul 14, 2011)

Cursive writing is just the tip of the ice burg.  How long has it been since the clerk at checkout correctly counted back your change?  Oh, I forgot, we only use plastic.  When the lights go out and the UPS runs down now, all commerce must stop.  No one can count money, add, subtract, multiply or divide in their mind or even on paper any more.  Oh, I forgot again, no pens!  Many of our younger generation can only wright or speak in txt msg lngage.  Sorry about this rant.  No I am not!  I am sorry about lying about being sorry, though.
Charles


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## Jim Burr (Jul 14, 2011)

It seems that with so much federal and state money dependent on student test scores, the kids are taught to pass tests, not learn. To bad handwriting isn't a federal test benchmark test.


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## sbell111 (Jul 14, 2011)

A quick googling identified that the issue is that some districts are no longer teaching cursive writing.  Children are still being taught how to form letters and how to spell.  Children are still being required to do homework and write papers.

While I haven't given the idea much thought, I don't really have a problem with it.  If it leaves more time to fill their brains with more valuable information that will help them (and the country in general) be competitive, I'm all for it.  After all, all kids used to learn shorthand, right?

Glancing around my office, I am struck with how much I write.  I have boxes of filled notebooks that must be retained as the info is related to some lawsuit or another.  Flipping through a few of these, I am only slightly surprised to find almost no cursive writing.  My scribble is almost always printed.  In fact, it's almost completely in 'small caps'.  Meaning all letters are capitals.  True capital letters being larger than the rest.  I cannot say that learning cursive writing has aided me in life.  I'd have just as soon that they hadn't wasted time on that and taught me something else, instead.

It is worth remembering that the amount that our kids learn in school is limited not by the amount of useful material that could be taught, but by the amount of time available to teach it.  If there is something more valuable to be taught than cursive writing, I think that they should teach that other thing.


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## sbell111 (Jul 14, 2011)

ctubbs said:


> Cursive writing is just the tip of the *ice burg*.  How long has it been since the clerk at checkout correctly counted back your change?  Oh, I forgot, we only use plastic.  When the lights go out and the UPS runs down now, all commerce must stop.  No one can count money, add, subtract, multiply or divide in their mind or even on paper any more.  Oh, I forgot again, no pens!  Many of our younger generation can only *wright* or speak in txt msg lngage.  Sorry about this rant.  No I am not!  I am sorry about lying about being sorry, though.
> Charles


Please forgive me for being amused.

That being said, perhaps if they weren't teaching cursive then more time could be given to math skills (or spelling).  That being said, the fact that some people working the checkout counter of KMart or the drive-in window at Wendy's can't add doesn't mean that those skills are not being taught in school.  A quick check of our local public school's graduation requirements found that in order to graduate, all children must take 4 math classes including Algebra I, II, Geometry and a fourth higher level math course.  A quick glance at the State's curriculum requirements further found that math instruction is required in all years K-8.  Given that TN is ranked somewhere right in the middle for math and science, I suspect that most states have similar curriculum requirements.


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## ed4copies (Jul 14, 2011)

Cursive writing requires fine muscle control.  I'm sure there are others here who know about brain development, but my mother was one of the first "early childhood education" folks in Chicago.  (Headstart was one of the off-shoots)  Fine motor control was necessary for many activities.

Perhaps the same skills are developed today with joysticks--I honestly don't know enough about the topic.

Hopefully, someone else does.


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## terryf (Jul 14, 2011)

sbell111 said:


> ... I *see* that they should teach that other thing.



Likewise


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## sbell111 (Jul 14, 2011)

terryf said:


> sbell111 said:
> 
> 
> > ... I *see* that they should teach that other thing.
> ...



Thanks.  Sometimes when I make a 'live' rewrite the stuff in my brain doesn't always land in the post.


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## whegge (Jul 14, 2011)

I am not sure who it was that said it...but it is up to the parents!  To many times I read or hear something in the news that says "What are we supposed to do?  The schools no longer want to teach this!"  I have had this conversation with my wife many times.  I keep saying we (parents) need to do this NOT the school.

Give your kids or grand kids pens.  Make them use it!  Make it fun!  

One parent I know writes a note to her kids every morning and puts it under their door.   It is usually a list of chores and a little personal stuff.  The kids need to respond and put it under her door by the time she gets home.  She has, in the past, written very sloppy on purpose so the kids cannot read her handwriting.  The kids complain. She pulls out the last note they sent to her and showed them their handwriting!

Guess my point is - Just because the schools don't.  Does not mean we should not.

Wes


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## sbell111 (Jul 14, 2011)

ed4copies said:


> Cursive writing requires fine muscle control.  I'm sure there are others here who know about brain development, but my mother was one of the first "early childhood education" folks in Chicago.  (Headstart was one of the off-shoots)  Fine motor control was necessary for many activities.
> 
> Perhaps the same skills are developed today with joysticks--I honestly don't know enough about the topic.
> 
> Hopefully, someone else does.


She's the expert, but I don't see how cursive writing would promote fine motor skills any more than printing would.  Beyond that, I suspect that some of the fine motor skills of most thirteen year old girls could put us all to shame due to their heavy texting.  

(I suppose that the 'fine motor skill' theory could help explain why I ALWAYS type 'teh'.)


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## BlackPearl (Jul 14, 2011)

PaulDoug said:


> I keep reading that more and more schools are going to stop teaching penmanship.  Hummm, I wonder what the will do for pens in the distant future.  Our Grand children may not be too interested in them.



This only applies to Public Schools. The kids of the "successful" people, that are of the finest stock, will go to Private schools. They will  get all the education that they will need to maintain their distance from the riff raff that have to go to public schools.


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## Timebandit (Jul 14, 2011)

BlackPearl said:


> PaulDoug said:
> 
> 
> > I keep reading that more and more schools are going to stop teaching penmanship.  Hummm, I wonder what the will do for pens in the distant future.  Our Grand children may not be too interested in them.
> ...




Hmmm....I went to a public school......................What are saying..................


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## Phunky_2003 (Jul 14, 2011)

Timebandit said:


> BlackPearl said:
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> > PaulDoug said:
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Riff raff lol


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## Timebandit (Jul 14, 2011)

Phunky_2003 said:


> Timebandit said:
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Hey!!! I resemble that..............


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## BlackPearl (Jul 14, 2011)

Timebandit said:


> Phunky_2003 said:
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So do I, ( a public school graduate) but we are talking about the future where the people with money are not going to spend it on the community. They can afford a good education for their kids, so why should they pay twice.


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## sbell111 (Jul 14, 2011)

Timebandit said:


> BlackPearl said:
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> > PaulDoug said:
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With the exception of graduate school, I went to public schools.  My wife went to private schools.  I guess the attempt at keeping her away from the 'riff raff' didn't work.  Further, I haven't identified any areas in which either of our educations were lacking.  If anything, I would argue that my public school education was more comprehensive, but she would not agree with me.


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## Phunky_2003 (Jul 14, 2011)

BlackPearl said:


> Timebandit said:
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Why would they pay twice?  They already pay twice.  People with money own their own home and/or purchasing home.  They pay taxes on that home.  Part of those taxes are school taxes that go to whatever school district they live in.

And basically your entire remark makes no sense.  A majority of "well off" people do in all actuality put money into their community.  That's why said community thrives.


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## sbell111 (Jul 14, 2011)

BlackPearl said:


> So do I, ( a public school graduate) but we are talking about the future where the people with money are not going to spend it on the community. They can afford a good education for their kids, so why should they pay twice.


Other than the fact that your tax dollars go toward public education regardless of whether your child attends public schools or whether you even have school-aged children, I can't imagine why someone would spend thier money on schools (public or private) if their children didn't attend them.


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## Phunky_2003 (Jul 14, 2011)

And I did go to a private school for a period of time.  There is no basic difference except the class sizes are smaller and it is on a more personal level.  The education requirements and goals in both systems are the same basically.  If you think the education is lacking in your school as a parent it is your job to fill that gap.  The rest is with the state which sets the standards, your local school follows those standards.


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## BlackPearl (Jul 14, 2011)

sbell111 said:


> Other than the fact that your tax dollars go toward public education regardless of whether your child attends public schools or whether you even have school-aged children, I can't imagine why someone would spend thier money on schools (public or private) if their children didn't attend them.



But as we see here in Texas, if the people who decide how to spend the tax money decide that education get cuts back, it cuts down on the money that need to be raised in taxes.  

Dallas area school districts were faced with the decision to keep school guards (Police) or teachers, the cut the teachers.  The state legislature did not give them enough money and they were not about to talk about raising taxes on a local level.  

Thank you Governor Perry. Less than 90 days after he won re-election by stating the the state was in a good financial situation.


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## BlackPearl (Jul 14, 2011)

Phunky_2003 said:


> And I did go to a private school for a period of time.  There is no basic difference except the class sizes are smaller and it is on a more personal level.  The education requirements and goals in both systems are the same basically.  If you think the education is lacking in your school as a parent it is your job to fill that gap.  The rest is with the state which sets the standards, your local school follows those standards.



That was then you are talking about the past, we are talking about the future. 

Requirements, Goals and Standards can be changed our last Governor enacted such strict rules about standardized tests that this is what the schools teach now. It is no longer about education it is about Passing the test so the school will have enough funding to teach the test next year.


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## ed4copies (Jul 14, 2011)

I know this is extreme, but we bought our house, based, in large part, on the school district.  It was rated in the top five in the state for elementary and High school.  So, my kids got a good---albeit public----education.

You CAN find good public schools, but you do have to LOOK.  Milwaukee and Racine are both terrible (generally speaking--which  is dangerous).


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## firewhatfire (Jul 14, 2011)

so we need to get into the stylus creating business.  

Its like the ol saying make something idiot proof and someone will make a better idiot.  We have to adjust with the times.  Just go take a look at the how old is everyone post to find out of if people change with the times. How many 60+ yo folks on here.  Those who are changed with the times.  I live around a bunch that will die before they touch a computer, they think anything that different from their time is of the devil.  

I hope I never get left behind by the times.  I also hope I can bring a little of it along with me to show those who are interested.

Phil


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## Holz Mechaniker (Jul 14, 2011)

Well lets think on this.  
You can find Calligraphy sets so it might be something that will be needed in the future only instead of Calligraphy lessons. it will be simple penmanship lessons with our pens...:biggrin:

Now there is nothing wrong in having Calligraphy sets either:wink:


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## sbell111 (Jul 14, 2011)

BlackPearl said:


> sbell111 said:
> 
> 
> > Other than the fact that your tax dollars go toward public education regardless of whether your child attends public schools or whether you even have school-aged children, I can't imagine why someone would spend thier money on schools (public or private) if their children didn't attend them.
> ...


You're making my argument.  

There is only so much that can be taught.  In order to ensure that the most important stuff is taught, you have to cut the less important stuff.


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## Phunky_2003 (Jul 14, 2011)

BlackPearl said:


> Phunky_2003 said:
> 
> 
> > And I did go to a private school for a period of time.  There is no basic difference except the class sizes are smaller and it is on a more personal level.  The education requirements and goals in both systems are the same basically.  If you think the education is lacking in your school as a parent it is your job to fill that gap.  The rest is with the state which sets the standards, your local school follows those standards.
> ...



Both of my kids just graduated.  My daughter just last month.  Who by the way got a full scholarship to UTA on her public school just pass the test education.  I am not thinking in the past.  We've looked into private/ public sectors for the past several years.  In both of our kids educations in high school and moving on to college.  These pass the test rules have been around in Texas since my kids have been in school and probably longer.  They had to pass standardized tests back in the 4 th grade then in the 6th, 8th, 10th and 12th grades.

And our Governor didn't pass these requirements, the state board of education and the senate and legislature passes these.  They have the same guidelines for private schools.  Again the only basic difference is class size and more one on one instruction.  

The biggest problem for public schools is how they receive their tax dollars.  It is something that needs to be overhauled.


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## BlackPearl (Jul 14, 2011)

sbell111;1252516[/quote said:
			
		

> You're making my argument.
> 
> There is only so much that can be taught.  In order to ensure that the most important stuff is taught, you have to cut the less important stuff.



And you are making mine, only those wealthy enough not to have to work two jobs each to keep a place to live and food on the table, and fortunate enough to understand and be able TO teach an understanding, can have kids with an education. No Art education, no music (other than marching band, to play at half time) no physical education other than organized sports that produce income, no Theater Arts. 

All the "less important stuff"

Both of my Kids had public education through High School and a Private 4 year College education.  One in Computer Science and one in Chemistry. 

The Computer Science major's job got outsourced to India after 4 years on the job because it was cheaper, and better for the bottom line.  

The Chemist never has had a job in her field because she needed  a masters and multiple years experience just to get an entry level position. Everyone she was competing against was down sized,from somewhere else and had the experience, so why not hire them?


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## BlackPearl (Jul 14, 2011)

Phunky,

Your daughter was not even born when the last Gov. signed the law that set up the standardized tests in 1991, so yes she has had them all her life. 

Did she apply to any out of state schools? How did she do with them? UTA is also a State School.

I am sorry, I am sure your daughter is intelligent, I do not intend to make this personal, but there is more to life than Math, Reading and Writing.  

Which is how this all started.


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## ed4copies (Jul 14, 2011)

Recently, I saw Michael Dell (Dell computer) interviewed.  He commented that when they were looking for a software architect, few would apply to fill the vacant spots.
(Aside: I also read a software mag that says this is the number one job in computing, currently with an average wage hovering right at $100,000 a year)

However, when they advertise for help in their warehouse, several thousand will apply for the hundred or so jobs.


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## Timebandit (Jul 14, 2011)

BlackPearl said:


> sbell111;1252516[/quote said:
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I normally stay out of conversations like this until something stupid is said..........and im hoping you understand the reason i am writing now...........This is a stupid statement. Neither of my parents worked 2 jobs, neither where wealthy, we had a place to live, we had food on the table, we were fortunate enough to understand and were taught an understanding, and me and my brother were highly intelligent childern with an education.....and we went to public schools.........we still are,  my brother can fix and do anything on a computer. I am studying Electronics Engineering....Again we are not wealthy and went to a public school. You have a pretty skewed idea of the way childerns intelligence is acquired. Money isnt everything. I know some absolute idiots that were rich and went to the best schools. I also know some of the most brilliant people that came from the public school system.

I think you are being a little insulting by saying that people who go to public schools are "Riff-Raff"

Peaceeace::airplane:


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## Parson (Jul 14, 2011)

You all know what amazes me most about this thread? The commonly misspelled words in the comments!

Who cares if the cursive is pretty looking if one uses wright instead of _write_ or loose instead of _lose_?

Now onto the topic at hand (literally)...

My mom wanted a girl, but God blessed her with three boys. This didn't stop her from forcing us to sit at the breakfast room table and practice our cursive and overall penmanship for hours on end each week . . . as if we were little girls who would enjoy that sort of thing.

My point? Schools should be expected to supplement the teaching of some things, not be considered the sole or primary source of knowledge and skill in all areas. Parents today are convinced that it's the school system's job to raise their children, discipline them, teach them everything they need to know about life (nutrition, social skills, etc.), and keep them out of trouble. Ask any teacher if they agree with me and you won't hear one opposing thought on this subject. Every teacher I know is completely fed up with the lack of active parenting provided by most procreating adults populating his or her classroom.

Those that want their children to learn how to write in cursive will teach them the way my mother did with me and my brothers. We hated it, but we all have beautiful penmanship, and all three of us enjoy writing with a fine writing instrument. 

The sooner society concludes that public schooling is _supplemental_, the better off we will be.

I leave you with this: Why is it called penmanship instead of penwomanship?


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## Woodlvr (Jul 14, 2011)

I would think that we still need to teach our children and grandchildren how to write "cursive". I know that technology is taking us away from writing and now it is all typing basically. Kind of depressing to me.


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## Phunky_2003 (Jul 14, 2011)

BlackPearl said:


> Phunky,
> 
> Your daughter was not even born when the last Gov. signed the law that set up the standardized tests in 1991, so yes she has had them all her life.
> 
> ...



She applied and we visited several in-state and out-of-state campuses.  She could have basically went to any she wanted.  She has acceptance letters from a vast variety of campuses.  And still gets stuff daily in the mail.

While she is well educated in reading, math, and writing, that isn't her primary focus.  She was a member of the student counsil for 4 years, on the newspaper staff and yearbook staff, she competed in UIL competitions yearly in theater arts and creative speaking.  She also played several sports.  She also has designed several websites for local companies and logo designs for companies.  She also is currently designing billboards for a company in Dallas.

I don't take things personally the majority of the time, especially on a message board.  It's too difficult to see what context somethings are said or implied.  So I basically read and reply without personal feelings.  I have been moderated a few times for things I've said..... Most of the time jokingly but things happen.

My main point with my posts are/is the education system is broken.   Not the teachers!  Although a lot of great teachers have been lost due to the system.  Until they fix the system and how they receive their tax dollars it will not improve.  The pass this test system was implemented due to this system failure it didn't cause the failure.  More and more will fall onto the parents shoulders to supply what they feel is important in their kids education and up bringing.  I also believe those who check will be surprised at how little difference private/public systems are now.  

It gets a little too close on politics on what is wrong with the education system across America to post here so I'll just leave that be.


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## PaulDoug (Jul 14, 2011)

Ha, I was just wondering about pens.  Sorry to start such a heated discussion.  I wasn't even wondering if it was a good or bad thing that they are (or appear to) be giving less attention to  penmanship (guess I should have written curvus or what ever it is).  In my day it was called writing, first you learned to print and then "write".   Anyway go ahead with your discussions if you want, I'll sit here and wonder about the poor, forgotten pen.


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## LeeR (Jul 14, 2011)

firewhatfire said:


> so we need to get into the stylus creating business.
> 
> [...]
> Phil


 
And you can now use up all your crappy refills for styluses (stylii?).  

Personally, as long as schools focus on the basics of reading, "some form of writing", and arithmetic, I'd be OK with cursive disappearing.  I print everything, unless I sign my name, so I'm not sure it is that much of an issue.

However, I fear that with the loss of cursive in these schools, some other useless subject will fill the void.  My oldest daughter was a school teacher in middle school in the Denver area, and I can only shake my head in disbelief at the administrative crap she had to deal with. She took a year off to stay at home with new baby, so that is an incredibly noble sacrifice in our present economy.  It has also been wonderful for her older 4 year old daughter. 

OK, I've stepped down from my soapbox.


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## renowb (Jul 14, 2011)

Well, maybe not in our lifetime, but just like antiques that people collect now, pens will be antiques, and they will be collectible items! 
Just watch Pawn Stars, etc. There is a lot of stuff sold on there that used to be used every day back in the day. Now, people want them! Just sayin....not in our lifetime, though.


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## terryf (Jul 14, 2011)

I don't believe pens will die in my lifetime - the more elctronic paraphinalia that is installed at my office, the more paperwork we end up having to do - and mostly hand written.

I go through a FP cartridge a day, at least.


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## BlackPearl (Jul 14, 2011)

Parson said:


> You all know what amazes me most about this thread? The commonly misspelled words in the comments!
> 
> Who cares if the cursive is pretty looking if one uses wright instead of _write_ or loose instead of _lose_?



I do apologize, when I was in school in the 50's and 60's dyslexia was not understood, so I do spell badly, and you have no idea how hard it was for me to learn how to read, but I can due to my mothers mentoring. 

But I can not write worth a damm. I can not even read my own handwriting.


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## titan2 (Jul 14, 2011)

sbell111 said:


> A quick googling identified that the issue is that some districts are no longer teaching cursive writing. Children are still being taught how to form letters and how to spell. Children are still being required to do homework and write papers.
> 
> While I haven't given the idea much thought, I don't really have a problem with it. If it leaves more time to fill their brains with more valuable information that will help them (and the country in general) be competitive, I'm all for it. After all, all kids used to learn shorthand, right?
> 
> ...


 
*Cursive writing is valuable.....jotting down a word or two and I'll print it with a mixture of upper/lower case. More than than and it'll be cursive....much faster than printing. If I gotta do a paper......break out the PC!!!*

*Learning some things are a pain....but, you must train the mind & muscles to act together without thought! Ask any touch typist.....quick, where's this letter on the keyboard? Don't know.....let me put my fingers on the home keys and I'd have it in a split second!!! (and, without thought!) It'll also teach self discpline and mastery. You need to exercise the old 'gray matter', build those neural paths....expand your capabilities!*

*Barney*


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## PenMan1 (Jul 14, 2011)

If this really concerns you, read MegaTrends, by John Nesbit (I think anyway). The whole premise of this book is that with each technological advance comes a need for "touch" or embrace of traditional values.

And....For the record, this looks like it could be a RECORD SETTING YEAR for pen sales...with fountain pens leading the way! WHOWOULDATHUNKIT?


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## monark88 (Jul 14, 2011)

I promised myself I would not respond. I am a retired-Ok,OK, I quit teaching 10 years ago. I had 7 1/2 years formal ed. before going into teaching with Rose colored glasses thinking I would be able to make a difference-to get kids to learn how to "think". Well, I was a failure. I had no idea that public education would beat me. It did. My wife just retired this summer. She had won the honorable "Crystal Apple Award". She also became fed up with Administration.

In my opinion, its the Mug and Jug theory of public education that is at fault here. Bring your empty mug to school and fill from the jug of knowledge. All too passive, all to safe.

Ok, I quit. Just my shortened .02 cents worth and my Opinion Only.

russ


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## IPD_Mrs (Jul 14, 2011)

PaulDoug said:


> I keep reading that more and more schools are going to stop teaching penmanship. Hummm, I wonder what the will do for pens in the distant future. Our Grand children may not be too interested in them.


 

Paul,  I don't think that when it comes to "pens" our grandchildren will be that different than the children currently in schools (of course there is only about 2 years give or take between my currently youngest grandchild and My Sister's youngest child.)  

My grandson already LOVES pens.  (Don't have a clue where he got that from.)  He will take a felt bag and put a bic in it and hand it to someone and say "I made a pen."   LOL.   

Yes, I know that he is being brought up (at least part time) in a house that not only values the written art but also the fine writing instruments it takes to do so. 

My niece and nephew however, do not have a pen turner living in their household and they still write cursive and love getting pretty pens.

Given your comment about schools not teaching penmanship, I feel a need to point out that schools are not going to teach cursive writing - children will still be taught to print (and I believe though won't swear to it) to sign their names.  

At any rate - don't give up making beautiful creations just yet. 

_Mrs._
__


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## GoodTurns (Jul 14, 2011)

just a week ago my son asked for a fountain pen.  finished it tonight and he has been practicing with it for an hour or so...wants to be able to take it to school (probably going to be a writer of some sort) and impress people with it.  17 years old and wants to impress people with REAL writing...not texting.  

The pen will live.


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## IPD_Mrs (Jul 14, 2011)

ctubbs said:


> Cursive writing is just the tip of the ice burg. How long has it been since the clerk at checkout correctly counted back your change? Oh, I forgot, we only use plastic. When the lights go out and the UPS runs down now, all commerce must stop. No one can count money, add, subtract, multiply or divide in their mind or even on paper any more. Oh, I forgot again, no pens! Many of our younger generation can only wright or speak in txt msg lngage. Sorry about this rant. No I am not! I am sorry about lying about being sorry, though.
> Charles


 

Charles, this is in part a great point.  However, all of these things are being taught in the schools.  Even in our own generation (boomers) - there are still those who have difficulty in true Arithmetic and in my son's generation (X) there are those who have great skill in the same.  My son for example can calculate the cost of an order and make change in his head faster than the cash register can in most cases.    I personally, have to work at remembering basic multiplication and division tables (and I grew up on the core "reading, writing, & arithmetic"  Lol
Math was NEVER my strong suit since I hated it.  However in school I tested into advanced math in middle school and had completed Algebra I before Highschool (- I managed to pass the class.)  In highschool we were required only TWO math classes - since I had completed Algebra I, I took Geometry my freshman year (which I liked because of the proofs) and never took another math class the rest of my time in highschool.  
I was late to go to college (had my children first like many of the Baby Boomer females).  When I got to college at around 29 years of age my degree required ONE math course.  I waited until my Senior year to take it (couldn't put it off much longer than that!)  At that point I was nearly 33 years old and hadn't had a math class since I was 14 years old.  I decided to take STATISTICS.  I was warned .. but I did it anyway.  Got an A+ but worked my rear off to do so. 
I just turned 49 - and when I went to school the syllabus said NOTHING about papers receiving a failing grade if written with "Texting language / spelling."  I find it sad that now our schools need to designate what is the proper form of spelling/writing papers to persons who are "supposedly adults" when they are attending the colleges.  THAT is tragic.

_Mrs._


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## IPD_Mr (Jul 14, 2011)

Calm down Jon.  You just popped another button on your shirt puffing out your chest like a proud Papa.


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## Smitty37 (Jul 14, 2011)

*Pay Twice anyway*



BlackPearl said:


> Timebandit said:
> 
> 
> > Phunky_2003 said:
> ...


  Parents sending children to private schools do not get out of paying for public schools.


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## KenV (Jul 14, 2011)

And here I was thinking for all these years that the lack of cursive writing skills and spelling skills had to do with having the mind associated with engineering and too many years of graduate school.

Has been an interesting read ----

Has been my observation that we generally get what the majority who elect really want --  and I was taught early on about the "golden rule"  -- those that have the gold really rule.

Blessings -- and written communications will be around for a few more years --


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## Smitty37 (Jul 14, 2011)

*Hmmmm*



IPD_Mrs said:


> ctubbs said:
> 
> 
> > Cursive writing is just the tip of the ice burg. How long has it been since the clerk at checkout correctly counted back your change? Oh, I forgot, we only use plastic. When the lights go out and the UPS runs down now, all commerce must stop. No one can count money, add, subtract, multiply or divide in their mind or even on paper any more. Oh, I forgot again, no pens! Many of our younger generation can only wright or speak in txt msg lngage. Sorry about this rant. No I am not! I am sorry about lying about being sorry, though.
> ...


 
Since you let the cat out of the bag vis-a-vis your age, you are the same age as my eldest give or take a tad. I went to school from the early 1940s until the middle 1950s, graduating in 1955. 

I learned cursive writing before learning to print, we started cursive writing in 1st grade (I went to a small country school with no kindergarden). Learing cursive first still goes on in many countries outside the USA. I have read that there are studies showing there is a correlation between cursive writing and brain development in children. I have not looked at any of the studies myself though, so I can not say they have any validity.

The focus of education during my school years was reading, arithmetic (we called it mathematics in high school), English, spelling and reading comprehension all through my school years. I had a 1st cousin once removed who was a brilliant man who said that in order to educate anyone you need teach them only to read and write well and they can take care of the rest themselves. Our schools, in my opinion, keep falling farther and farther behind the rest of the world because we no longer teach our children to read well and don't teach them to write at all.

Just one example - I graduated from high school in 1955 with about a C+ average for the 4 years of high school English (English was my weak suit). *25 years later*, without ever having taken another English course I took a CLEP examination to get credit for freshman English in college. I scored in the 92nd (A or A+ in generally accepted grading at the time) percentile compared to students who took the test immediately after completing an appropriate college freshman English course. That should NEVER have been possible.

Writing is very important because when we write something we need to think it out before putting it on paper. When my children would start to complain about something I did as my father did when I complained and said "Write that down." If the complaint was real, the child would have to pull his or her thoughts together and present them in a thought out and lucid manner. That is far more important and far more educational than punching a few keys or swiping a finger across a screen full of pictures.

End of rant. (for now)


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## sbell111 (Jul 14, 2011)

LeeR said:


> However, I fear that with the loss of cursive in these schools, some other useless subject will fill the void.


Certainly, it's possible that this teaching time could be used for instruction on a subject that is of greater use than cursive writing.


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## bensoelberg (Jul 15, 2011)

Smitty37 said:
			
		

> Writing is very important because when we write something we need to think it out before putting it on paper. When my children would start to complain about something I did as my father did when I complained and said "Write that down." If the complaint was real, the child would have to pull his or her thoughts together and present them in a thought out and lucid manner. That is far more important and far more educational than punching a few keys or swiping a finger across a screen full of pictures.



Smitty, that is just plain brilliant.  As a young(ish) father of two, and a (now former) high school English teacher, I can truly appreciate why that works on many levels and plan to use it in the future.  Thank you for sharing that pearl.


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## el_d (Jul 15, 2011)

PaulDoug said:


> Ha, I was just wondering about pens.  Sorry to start such a heated discussion.  I wasn't even wondering if it was a good or bad thing that they are (or appear to) be giving less attention to  penmanship (guess I should have written curvus or what ever it is).  In my day it was called writing, first you learned to print and then "write".   Anyway go ahead with your discussions if you want, I'll sit here and wonder about the poor, forgotten pen.



Way to stir the pot Paul......:biggrin:.......good one....:wink:

 I think that cursive writing is an art form. Some have gotten very good at it because they take pride in their craft and others see writing as a necessity that doesn't deserve anything more that jotting down a note. 

As long as we penturners offer beautiful writing instruments I believe there will be someone who appreciates our art......


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## tt1106 (Jul 15, 2011)

Morning Gents.  It's not writing, it's communicating in general.  Public school is a product of culture.  The school has an internet site and the children have e-mails.  There is little value seen in written correspondence, because, just like everything else in our consumer culture, e-mail is instantaneous.  Writing requires depth and thought.  The trend these days is 60 character conversation.  MY daughters can be heard frequently saying, LOL...out loud.  
I'm afraid the trend is towards shorter, conversations.  I would also say, if I may, that the manner in which we express ourselves is dramatically changing too.  I think the appropriate word is volatile.  Children express themselves almost immediately without any kind of monitor, so you get their full range of emotion from beginning to end.  
I agree with the comment about schools teaching their students test passing.


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## azamiryou (Jul 15, 2011)

If you go far enough back in the archives, you can probably find a post worried about the future of quills in an era of fountain pens. What's going to happen to quill-cutting? And how will kids ever learn not to knock over a pot of ink?

(I still haven't learned that last one.) :laugh:


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## tt1106 (Jul 15, 2011)

azamiryou said:


> If you go far enough back in the archives, you can probably find a post worried about the future of quills in an era of fountain pens. What's going to happen to quill-cutting? And how will kids ever learn not to knock over a pot of ink?
> 
> (I still haven't learned that last one.) :laugh:


 


			
				God said:
			
		

> What has been will be again,
> what has been done will be done again;
> there is nothing new under the sun.


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## Andrew_K99 (Jul 15, 2011)

Smitty37 said:


> Parents sending children to private schools do not get out of paying for public schools.


In Ontario, where I live, you can get a tax credit if your children go to private school.  I'd hope they offer similar in the States.

AK


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