# "do you wanna see it"



## Timbo (Jul 13, 2014)

So I'm at my show today.  A lady comes in, starts looking over my pens and then starts raving about how beautiful they.  Then she confesses to me that she loves pens and likes to collect them.  She follows that confession up with another..."I already blew my budget on a pen that I bought from your competition down the block."  Then she excited asks "do you wanna see it".  Since I like seeing pens made by other pen turners/makers I said sure.  So she digs through her bag and pulls out the pen and hands it to me.  I believe it was a PSI Olympian 24k Gold Rollerball.  It was dressed in a yellow acrylic.  That's the OK part.  The not OK part was that you could clearly see the glue through the blank, and the plating was nicked in several spots.  In short the pen was disgusting.  I actually felt a little sick.  I don't mind losing a potential sale to a pen turner who makes a good product but this just didn't sit well with me.  I pointed out the flaws (I couldn't help it) in a professional manner and showed her what an acrylic pen should look like.  Then she said " but his prices are cheaper than yours".  Being loss for words at that point, and wanting to attend to someone else who came into my booth, I just handed her a business card and offered that I hope she  contacts me the next time she's looking for a quality pen. 

I don't know who the guy was that sold the lady the pen, buy I refuse to believe he was an IAP member.  If he was he'd know better.  Next time someone asks " do you wanna see it", I'm going to say NO.


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## Holz Mechaniker (Jul 13, 2014)

Timbo said:


> ...  *Then she said " but his prices are cheaper than yours"*...



To answer her and this maybe cold perhaps an outstanding and utter statement of arrogance, yet I see it as completely Professional and proper. "Well that is because they don't have as much pride in their work as I do."  
Yes it is very course and abrasive but not to that potential client.  
I was at a craft event and a gent had an amazing array of slims, but I looked at them and saw gaps, glue, sand lines, spray finish that had formed drips cracks and splits in the blanks... That person went and knocked out as many as he could in perhaps a short amount of time.  When the event ended, My table was nowhere as full as the start and his was perhaps, well he took a while packing up because of all he didn't seem to sell all that much. If memory serves, he had probably 300 slims.


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## mark james (Jul 13, 2014)

You handled it very well Tim.

You may have a potential customer, or at least a more educated customer who may pass out your name to others.

Being on the side of polite is always a good choice, Karma happens.


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## Dan Masshardt (Jul 13, 2014)

A couple thoughts.  

Sometimes cheaper does still win.

Sometimes people completely miss the flaws that we see clearly.   This isn't always a bad thing. 

I would have chosen to highlight some of the extra steps / process of my own pens rather than directly point out flaws with the other. but I can see why you did what you did.


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## stonepecker (Jul 13, 2014)

I usually say nothing about the other person price.

However, when I do..... "Well, they know what their product is worth and I know what my product is worth" And THEN, if the person asks me what the difference is, I will explain or show them.

Kind of like the local war memorial that was erected lately.
My biggest comment was how they used imported granite in the construction to honor our " U.S. Veterans ".

But then again, that is just my opinion.


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## lwalper (Jul 13, 2014)

That's why most of my slims sell for $25 instead of $250. I have quality issues, and I know it -- and am working on that. I'm not a production turner, but do what I like and sell / give away what I can. If I don't like the piece I take it apart and redo it. Quality is improving. Practice, practice, practice.


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## Krankyankee (Jul 13, 2014)

*do you wanna see it*

I have been a professional salesperson for over 28 years and have come up with the correct answer to the  BUT HIS IS CHEAPER THAN YOURS....you really don't want to insult anyone ,,I simply say that  I AM SURE THEY KNOW  EXACTLY WHAT THEIR PENS ARE WORTH.....you have not insulted anyone,,,in fact,,,you gave them credit for actually selling their product at the correct price...


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## WriteON (Jul 13, 2014)

Good steak is not cheap. Cheap steak is not good. If the customer can't tell the difference ...oh well. Just keep delivering quality. It'll come back to you. You will build a customer base that appreciates your products.


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## low_48 (Jul 13, 2014)

I would not have pointed out any problems either. You will only make the buyer regret a purchase they were happy with. What was proven, is that the other maker was filling a market with their product. Sears, Harbor Freight and Grizzly all sell woodworking tools that are known to not be the highest quality made. They all sell lots of tools despite the quality issues. They fill a market just as the other pen maker did.


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## Justin H (Jul 14, 2014)

My brother gets very frustrated with me for throwing away pens.  The fact is, the majority of people who do not make pens, will never notice 90% of the flaws we see.  That is truly my belief.

I've only sold a couple of pens and only by request.  I give a LOT of them away.  I absolutely refuse to give someone something that I would not be proud to carry myself.  Which is why I don't sell pens lol.  Takes me 3-4 tries to get one I'm proud of most of the time.

The fact is, making a pen that looks beautiful from 5 feet away is really pretty easy.  Making one that feels great in your hand, means something to the person holding it and is a joy to use & show off... that's freaking hard.


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## BJohn (Jul 14, 2014)

"The fact is, making a pen that looks beautiful from 5 feet away is  really pretty easy.  Making one that feels great in your hand, means  something to the person holding it and is a joy to use & show off...  that's freaking hard."

Hey Justin

Just Like the Master Card Commercial "THAT'S PRICELESS"


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## Holz Mechaniker (Jul 14, 2014)

WriteON said:


> *Good steak is not cheap. Cheap steak is not good*...



Oooohhh I like that line.


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## jfoh (Jul 14, 2014)

Some people just like price more than they understand what makes a pen perfect in our eyes.  And if they loose the pen soon after buying it does it matter or if they are happy with it does it matter? On pens I sell I try to make them as perfect as I can. Those who do not measure up are either tossed into a box for use around the house, given to the kids or given away as gifts. Never sell a pen that you are not proud of and never fail to give a less than perfect pen to someone who is happy for the gift. More than one has ended up buying a good pen later.


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## Timbo (Jul 14, 2014)

Krankyankee said:


> I have been a professional salesperson for over 28 years and have come up with the correct answer to the  BUT HIS IS CHEAPER THAN YOURS....you really don't want to insult anyone ,,I simply say that  I AM SURE THEY KNOW  EXACTLY WHAT THEIR PENS ARE WORTH.....you have not insulted anyone,,,in fact,,,you gave them credit for actually selling their product at the correct price...



I like that.


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## Timbo (Jul 14, 2014)

low_48 said:


> I would not have pointed out any problems either. You will only make the buyer regret a purchase they were happy with. What was proven, is that the other maker was filling a market with their product. Sears, Harbor Freight and Grizzly all sell woodworking tools that are known to not be the highest quality made. They all sell lots of tools despite the quality issues. They fill a market just as the other pen maker did.



I'm actually glad I pointed out the problems.  If she regretted her purchase, that means she saw my point about quality.  If she goes back to the same guy and picks up another flawed pen, I want her to put it down and keep looking through his inventory for something better.  If she doesn't find anything better, I want her to move on.  If she's truly interested in price over quality, she's going to buy more flawed pens no matter what I said.  What tool company making quality tools fails to tout their quality pointing out why they're better than the competition every chance they get....it would be silly not to.


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## sbell111 (Jul 15, 2014)

Timbo said:


> low_48 said:
> 
> 
> > I would not have pointed out any problems either. You will only make the buyer regret a purchase they were happy with. What was proven, is that the other maker was filling a market with their product. Sears, Harbor Freight and Grizzly all sell woodworking tools that are known to not be the highest quality made. They all sell lots of tools despite the quality issues. They fill a market just as the other pen maker did.
> ...



Having that conversation prior to the sale is different than after the sale, in my opinion.


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## tim self (Jul 15, 2014)

Tim, I've had that situation more times than I care to admit.  And I handle it the same way you  did.  A true collector would have noticed the flaws and walked AND would never have complained about your prices.  You educated that customer of how a quality pen should have looked.


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## Smitty37 (Jul 15, 2014)

Timbo said:


> So I'm at my show today.  A lady comes in, starts looking over my pens and then starts raving about how beautiful they.  Then she confesses to me that she loves pens and likes to collect them.  She follows that confession up with another..."I already blew my budget on a pen that I bought from your competition down the block."  Then she excited asks "do you wanna see it".  Since I like seeing pens made by other pen turners/makers I said sure.  So she digs through her bag and pulls out the pen and hands it to me.  I believe it was a PSI Olympian 24k Gold Rollerball.  It was dressed in a yellow acrylic.  That's the OK part.  The not OK part was that you could clearly see the glue through the blank, and the plating was nicked in several spots.  In short the pen was disgusting.  I actually felt a little sick.  I don't mind losing a potential sale to a pen turner who makes a good product but this just didn't sit well with me.  I pointed out the flaws (I couldn't help it) in a professional manner and showed her what an acrylic pen should look like.  Then she said " but his prices are cheaper than yours".  Being loss for words at that point, and wanting to attend to someone else who came into my booth, I just handed her a business card and offered that I hope she  contacts me the next time she's looking for a quality pen.
> 
> I don't know who the guy was that sold the lady the pen, buy I refuse to believe he was an IAP member.  If he was he'd know better.  Next time someone asks " do you wanna see it", I'm going to say NO.


She probably just happened to get to the other booth first and bought something....maybe if the other booth wasn't there she'd have bought yours. 

Personally, I would not have looked at the pen she bought.  When she asked me if I wanted to see it I'd have just said "not really".

I have a practice in my business where I do not say anything bad about my competitors products - let theirs and mine speak for themselves if folks think theirs is a better buy so be it.


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## sbell111 (Jul 15, 2014)

Smitty37 said:


> She probably just happened to get to the other booth first and bought something....maybe if the other booth wasn't there she'd have bought yours.
> 
> Personally, I would not have looked at the pen she bought.  When she asked me if I wanted to see it I'd have just said "not really".
> 
> I have a practice in my business where I do not say anything bad about my competitors products - let theirs and mine speak for themselves if folks think theirs is a better buy so be it.



I completely agree with this post. 

The only change for me is that I likely would have taken a cursory look at the pen basically to be polite and out of curiosity about my "competition's" products.  

I wouldn't point out the flaws in the pen, however.  There's no point in making her feel bad about her purchase, after all.  In my mind, it's little different from the average guy who pulls a pen out of his pocket to show you one that he made.  If the person isn't specifically requesting a critical review, I don't give one.


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## vtgaryw (Jul 15, 2014)

Last Christmas time, I was in a gift shop in our downtown area.  It's run by a company that makes their own cutting boards and wooden items, but they also carry other wooden gift items.  There was a pen/pencil set in the case, I think it was a Jr. Gentlemen set.  The clerk saw me looking at it and asked if I wanted to see it, so I said yes.

It was priced over $ 100, I couldn't believe the poor fit and the chips out of the end of the blanks.  I bit my tongue and resisted the temptation to point out the flaws.  I'm a believer in not dissing the competition, but rather to point out the features of my product.

Gary


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## MillerTurnings (Jul 15, 2014)

She follows that confession up with another..."I already blew my budget on a pen that I bought from your competition down the block." 

Based on this, she wasn't going to pay more regardless of quality. She had a set amount of money to spend, and reached her limit. Many people are impulse buyers, not comparers and shoppers.


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## Timbo (Jul 15, 2014)

tim self said:


> Tim, I've had that situation more times than I care to admit.  And I handle it the same way you  did.  A true collector would have noticed the flaws and walked AND would never have complained about your prices. You educated that customer of how a quality pen should have looked.



That's been my observation too.  I have several repeat collector customers who I see at multiple shows throughout the year.  They always look over the pens carefully, and often never look at the price.  

Even though she did not ask for my opinion, that was my intention.  Hopefully, she'll be more selective in the future and become a better collector.


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## Timbo (Jul 15, 2014)

sbell111 said:


> Timbo said:
> 
> 
> > low_48 said:
> ...



Yup...you're right!  I love all the differing opinions expressed so far.  What feels right for one person may not feel right to someone else...and that's OK.  There's no moral high ground to be had here.  From my perspective I could not think of a better time to have that conversation with an example of not done right, and examples of done correctly right in front of us.


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## sbell111 (Jul 16, 2014)

Timbo said:


> tim self said:
> 
> 
> > Tim, I've had that situation more times than I care to admit.  And I handle it the same way you  did.  A true collector would have noticed the flaws and walked AND would never have complained about your prices. You educated that customer of how a quality pen should have looked.
> ...


A better collector?  Does she have to even be a collector in order to buy a pen?  If she is 'collecting' pens, who's to say that she's doing it wrong?


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## WriteON (Jul 16, 2014)

][/QUOTE]
A better collector? [/QUOTE]
Hopefully an educated buyer..... And will look for flaws and better workmanship unless price is the only concern.


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## Smitty37 (Jul 16, 2014)

*Flaws...*

You guys do understand don't you, that some customers will not even notice minor flaws...I have right now in my collection several pens sent to me by IAP members that contain minor flaws of one sort or another - most of them you will not see from as close as I'll let you get to my collection and I was more concerned about getting a pen from the maker, than about getting a perfect pen.  Right now I have two (that I'm aware of - there could be others that I have not noticed) beautiful finished pens that have very tiny flaws, I probably wouldn't be selling them anyway because selling pens isn't my thing, but I have no compunction at all about carrying them because I know that no one seeing me use the pen and 75% of the people taking the pen to look at it will never see the flaws.  Truth be known I could probably sell them and the buyer would never notice.


My point is this - If you are a real class act you don't need to run down your competition.  If your product is better (especially something like pens) it will speak for itself.  We used to refer to "educating someone after they've bought something"  as "locking the barn after the horse has been stolen"  As a consumer, I sure don't want a sales person at the next store "educating" me about what I bought at the last store - even if I were to ask them if they wanted to see it.


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## Carl Fisher (Jul 16, 2014)

"That's a nice pen, I'm sure it will bring you years of good service."

followed by

"I really enjoy working with that material and have used something similar as an inlay (read segment) on this pen" going directly to it on my table and handing it to her to look at.  Or "Did you by chance notice if he used any unique vintage materials such as this 70-year old italian cebloplast?" as I hand her a pen.

If she bought a pen once, she's a prime cusotmer to buy again in the future whether it's for herself or a gift.  Why turn away the opportunity to leave an impression and pass along your business card?

I earned a future customer once by providing a free refill to someone who bought from another vendor when the kit refill they were given was skipping.

My personal rule is to never bad mouth another vendor or their product no matter what my personal opinion of their work may be.  Rather treat the customer as a valued customer and earn their future business.  If they bought once, they are prime to buy agian.


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## Timbo (Jul 17, 2014)

Smitty37 said:


> You guys do understand don't you, that some customers will not even notice minor flaws...I have right now in my collection several pens sent to me by IAP members that contain minor flaws of one sort or another - most of them you will not see from as close as I'll let you get to my collection and I was more concerned about getting a pen from the maker, than about getting a perfect pen.  Right now I have two (that I'm aware of - there could be others that I have not noticed) beautiful finished pens that have very tiny flaws, I probably wouldn't be selling them anyway because selling pens isn't my thing, but I have no compunction at all about carrying them because I know that no one seeing me use the pen and 75% of the people taking the pen to look at it will never see the flaws.  Truth be known I could probably sell them and the buyer would never notice.
> 
> 
> My point is this - If you are a real class act you don't need to run down your competition.  If your product is better (especially something like pens) it will speak for itself.  We used to refer to "educating someone after they've bought something"  as "locking the barn after the horse has been stolen"  As a consumer, I sure don't want a sales person at the next store "educating" me about what I bought at the last store - even if I were to ask them if they wanted to see it.



Let's be clear...we're not talking about minor flaws.  Multiple chips in the plating, and bubbly glue clearly visible through the acrylic barrels is not minor.  There aren't many here who would sell that pen.  

Pointing out major flaws in a particular pen is not "running down the competition".  I said nothing about him or his operation to the customer.  For all I know every other pen on the guys table was quality.  If someone volunteers to show you a pen, they're not expecting you to stare at it and not say anything, they're expecting you comment in some fashion.  If I'm going to comment, and I will since I don't want to just stand there looking like an idiot, I'm going to comment honestly.  If its beautiful and well made I'll tell them that, if its of poor quality I'll tell them that too.  I would hope to get the same treatment if I showed someone one of my pens.


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## Timbo (Jul 17, 2014)

Carl Fisher said:


> "That's a nice pen, I'm sure it will bring you years of good service."
> followed by
> 
> "I really enjoy working with that material and have used something similar as an inlay (read segment) on this pen" going directly to it on my table and handing it to her to look at.  Or "Did you by chance notice if he used any unique vintage materials such as this 70-year old italian cebloplast?" as I hand her a pen.
> ...



"That's a nice pen, I'm sure it will bring you years of good service."  *That wouldn't have been the truth in this case.
*
followed by

"I really enjoy working with that material and have used something similar as an inlay (read segment) on this pen" going directly to it on my table and handing it to her to look at.  Or "Did you by chance notice if he used any unique vintage materials such as this 70-year old italian cebloplast?" as I hand her a pen. *Very smooth...I like that.
*
If she bought a pen once, she's a prime cusotmer to buy again in the future whether it's for herself or a gift.  Why turn away the opportunity to leave an impression and pass along your business card?  
*She took a business card before I could offer one.  Folks seem to think she was upset by my comments...she didn't seem that way to me. *

I earned a future customer once by providing a free refill to someone who bought from another vendor when the kit refill they were given was skipping.
*Yup...done that more than once, and even repaired a couple of pens I didn't make free of charge.
*
My personal rule is to never bad mouth another vendor or their product no matter what my personal opinion of their work may be.  *In principle we agree.  Where we may differ is that I don't consider giving feedback, even if its negative,  on something shown to you unsolicited is bad mouthing.*Rather treat the customer as a valued customer and earn their future business.  If they bought once, they are prime to buy agian.


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## Smitty37 (Jul 17, 2014)

Timbo said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > You guys do understand don't you, that some customers will not even notice minor flaws...I have right now in my collection several pens sent to me by IAP members that contain minor flaws of one sort or another - most of them you will not see from as close as I'll let you get to my collection and I was more concerned about getting a pen from the maker, than about getting a perfect pen.  Right now I have two (that I'm aware of - there could be others that I have not noticed) beautiful finished pens that have very tiny flaws, I probably wouldn't be selling them anyway because selling pens isn't my thing, but I have no compunction at all about carrying them because I know that no one seeing me use the pen and 75% of the people taking the pen to look at it will never see the flaws.  Truth be known I could probably sell them and the buyer would never notice.
> ...


 Pointing out flaws in you competitors product *is *running down the competition.  If someone shows you something in the situation you describe they are not asking you for a critique of the product.  You could just as easily have said 'no thank you' when she asked if you wanted to see it or said "Thanks for showing it to me, I do not comment good or bad on products sold by other pen makers".

I personally wouldn't have showed you the pen from another supplier unless you asked to see it and probably wouldn't have told you I'd bought it, but that's just me.  

I have showed my own work to a couple of vendors in the course of conversation because I would have liked to have them buy some of their kits from me. 

I did once buy a razor from a vendor at a craft show who was selling pens made from kits he bought from me.  He didn't know that until he was writing the sale up and I handed him a business card to copy the address and phone number.


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## sbell111 (Jul 17, 2014)

Here's how I see it.

Talking up your pens prior to the customer making a purchase is smart business.  Educating that potential buyer as to what to look for in a quality product is all good.

Trashing something that the person owns and likes serves no good purpose.  It just makes the individual feel bad.  That's bad form, in my opinion.


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## Timbo (Jul 19, 2014)

Well...you know a post has run its course when folks start to repeat themselves.  If I had to do it all over again, I'd do exactly the same thing.  Others would handle if differently.  Doesn't make them right...doesn't make them wrong...just makes them different.  

My sincere thanks to everyone who responded, I found it very entertaining.  Timbo...signing off!


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