# fingerprinting Pen kit manufactures via tooling



## edstreet (Jan 31, 2014)

Lets see if you can spot which one is which.  Pay particular attention to the tool marks on both parts.  Tool marks is like a finger print if you will.


One of the items is a Nouveau Sceptre made by a non-disclosed company that PSI uses, the other is from an Emperor made by dayacom








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This shot is clips.  Here we can see how the clips were made and put together.  

These 3 clips are from a Gent Jr by dayacom, a Baron by Berea and a Cambridge by Berea.





These two are unique, this means they are made by the same company on the same machine.  I took the liberty of marking the spots for you.






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Lets look at another example.





Somewhere in this mix is one made by Dayacom, which is suppose to be the flag ship of 'high quality'.  I am willing to bet it is not the one that you think it is.

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Yet the last example.





Here we have tooling marks from what looks like a cnc machine.  One that needs some serious tuneup's and a better skilled operator.


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## Dale Lynch (Jan 31, 2014)

Allright here are my guesses. 1st pic dayacom on the left.2nd pic dayacom far right.3rd pic both berea.4th pic dayacom upper left.5th pic berea.


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## mikespenturningz (Jan 31, 2014)

Thanks for posting this. Most of us never take the time to really look things over this closely.


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## edstreet (Jan 31, 2014)

I think for most people likely they do not have the setup to see detail on this level but often wish they could.  I was thinking for some time now that perhaps we could ID manufactures based on principals like this, after all it is used in forensics all the time so this should be no exception.


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## Dan Masshardt (Jan 31, 2014)

I don't know well enough to guess but if appreciate the info eventually!


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## its_virgil (Jan 31, 2014)

With all due respect I do not really see why the manufacturer of XYZ kit really matters to most pen turners. We make what we like, what sells, what we consider to be quality kits. I consider, for example,  kit A is a quality kit but pen turner Joe hates the kit and considers it junk. I like the quality of Dayacom or Berea kits and pent turner Billy hates both of those and only sells PSI stuff. We see these comparisons almost daily. Interesting...yes to many and no to others. I just don't understand the importance. Just saying.
Do a good turn daily!
Don


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## mbroberg (Jan 31, 2014)

edstreet said:


> I think for most people likely they do not have the setup to see detail on this level but often wish they could.  I was thinking for some time now that perhaps we could ID manufactures based on principals like this, after all it is used in forensics all the time so this should be no exception.



You may be right, and to each his own.  To me, penturning is a hobby.  Yes, I do sell pens, but my goal is to support my hobby, not make a "business" out of it.   It is fun.  Personally I am not interested in muddying up my fun hobby with trivial, minute details such as this.


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## edstreet (Jan 31, 2014)

its_virgil said:


> With all due respect I do not really see why the manufacturer of XYZ kit really matters to most pen turners. We make what we like, what sells, what we consider to be quality kits. I consider, for example,  kit A is a quality kit but pen turner Joe hates the kit and considers it junk. I like the quality of Dayacom or Berea kits and pent turner Billy hates both of those and only sells PSI stuff. We see these comparisons almost daily. Interesting...yes to many and no to others. I just don't understand the importance. Just saying.
> Do a good turn daily!
> Don



True story:

There was a mechanic who love champion spark plugs and refused to use any other brand, he hated AC spark plugs with a passion.  Then one day someone politely informed him that the name 'AC'  stood for Albert Champion and his company made both products in the same plant.

Now what if we were to find out that one manufacturing company actually sub-contracted out and the shop made parts for more than one manufacture?  In this case we would very quickly learn and discover that the hatred for manufacture B was unjust.  This work attempts to transcend the biased, prejudice and sterotype among manufactures and points out what is.  

That 'what is' is quite simple.  It all boils down to design and detail.


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## Joe S. (Jan 31, 2014)

its_virgil said:


> With all due respect I do not really see why the manufacturer of XYZ kit really matters to most pen turners. We make what we like, what sells, what we consider to be quality kits. I consider, for example,  kit A is a quality kit but pen turner Joe hates the kit and considers it junk. I like the quality of Dayacom or Berea kits and pent turner Billy hates both of those and only sells PSI stuff. We see these comparisons almost daily. Interesting...yes to many and no to others. I just don't understand the importance. Just saying.
> Do a good turn daily!
> Don



You had better believe kit A is a piece of junk.


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## mikespenturningz (Feb 1, 2014)

Well the details may not be important to one person but to another it may be part of the hobby. Ed clearly likes looking at these details and to him this may very well be part of his enjoyment. I am so happy we have such a diverse group with many skill levels. It really makes this hobby and forum special.


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## Hubert H (Feb 1, 2014)

Mike,  I couldn't agree more.   HWH


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## edstreet (Feb 2, 2014)

This is a center band from a nouveau sceptre ball point twist.











Perhaps the apex of tool chatter


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## TurnaPen (Feb 2, 2014)

I found your post very interesting Ed, an aspect I had not considered in my hobby.
It does concern me when buying high end kits, that I really don't know how well it is made or if the materials used are as stated . Usually I go by the finished product, does it fit well?, do the threads mate well?  but only prolonged use will tell if the plating is adequate.
I know one supplier who says his parts are just as good as Dayacom and his prices are half that of Dayacom, although the kits are different.
I like the type of identification that I get from Silver Pen Parts, the standard of the silver is stamped on.
Thanks for the education, Amos


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## ttm7 (Feb 2, 2014)

edstreet 
please identify your pics: 
quality = better quality pens?
 one would expect better quality when one 
puts down more $$$ for the pen; as i turn more of these i have noticed that 
paying $$$$$$ does not = a better product.
we would be better consumers if we verified quality over quantity
and this would force the pen kit makers to monitor quality assurance.
funny my son just reminded me that i have been bitching about quality since i started the hobby; 
repair fix daily
are the kits mostly made in china?


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## Dale Lynch (Feb 2, 2014)

Your close up pics are awesome.Any chance you can compare that to some of the big boys like Parker,Aurora,Schaefer?


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## mikespenturningz (Feb 2, 2014)

The worst quality I have ever seen was on a set of bushings that was Made In USA they had a crappy finish and were not drilled on center I used them once and chucked them out. I have noticed that quality doesn't necessarily mean not made in China! Also I have noticed that quality is not necessarily connected in price paid. Lets also not forget that Taiwan is also very closely held by China. 

Mike




ttm7 said:


> edstreet
> please identify your pics:
> quality = better quality pens?
> one would expect better quality when one
> ...


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## Daju (Feb 2, 2014)

To add another interesting story on product quality. There was a suppliers "come to Jesus" meeting held once in Dearborn between the first tier parts suppliers (sellers) and "Mr. Thumbprint (buyers). After about an hour of railing on about quality (ya got to get better), schedule(we gotta have it quicker) and cost (ya got to make it cheaper), with emphasis on being beat up un the market place by the transplants. After using all the appropriate quality buzz words (threats) the meeting was turned over to a rep from the sellers group.  The Moderator asked for a show of hands of all those manufacturers who sold parts to Mr. Thumbprint.  All hands went up. Then the question was posted, "how many of you sell to the likes of "Transplants"? And a likewise set of hands went up. The moderator then looked at Mr. Thumbprint and said "Now where exactly do you think the problem lies? 

The old management adage remains true: Cost, Schedule, Quality. Pick 2.


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## edstreet (Feb 2, 2014)

Spanx said:


> Your close up pics are awesome.Any chance you can compare that to some of the big boys like Parker,Aurora,Schaefer?



The 'big boy names' have engaged in successful marketing campaigns and have transformed a word into a meaning.  It is this meaning that you are buying, this reputation of that word, not the actual product itself.  However if I had the chance I would gladly put those items in front of my camera and let the magic happen, and the flame wars to no doubt.



ttm7 said:


> edstreet
> please identify your pics:
> quality = better quality pens?
> one would expect better quality when one
> ...



Truth of the matter is we do not know where exactly they are made at.  What we do know is more what we are told by marketing practices but we all know this may not be the truth but what they want us to hear.  One company in particular likes to market their NAME as 'quality' (dayacom) but when we pull up their google street view   We see it is just a normal business shop with no machinery capability.  We also know that machines are expensive and companies love to show productivity and it does do a world of good to know things like that.

did not list the company name on this one.





Shenzhen Jiangxin Pen Factory 





Yiwu Troy Pen Industry Co










Guangzhou Le Tian Pen Co.











We are also told that many/most of the companies that we know of is actually scout companies; companies who contracts out to various other companies for specific parts, then they are collected and grouped into what we see.  From this we can see company A may be listed as 'made in Taiwan' but it could be made up of 30 parts and some of them are made in China or any slew of other countries.  Very same concept as home builders here in the US.




TurnaPen said:


> I found your post very interesting Ed, an aspect I had not considered in my hobby.
> It does concern me when buying high end kits, that I really don't know how well it is made or if the materials used are as stated . Usually I go by the finished product, does it fit well?, do the threads mate well?  but only prolonged use will tell if the plating is adequate.
> I know one supplier who says his parts are just as good as Dayacom and his prices are half that of Dayacom, although the kits are different.
> I like the type of identification that I get from Silver Pen Parts, the standard of the silver is stamped on.
> Thanks for the education, Amos




One thing to keep in mind when throwing the word 'quality' around.  Having a pen kit is not even 1/2 of the battle that is played out.  You have design, detail, material and assembly contend with.  You also have concepts of flow, color matching, uniformity, orientation and a slew of other topics to deal with to make something.  

Knowing what you are starting with is just one of the problems that the community faces.  The community at large knows very little beyond what the upstream providers are saying and almost always includes some type of marketing approach saying 'my product is perfect, the other companies are garbage'.

Consider this.  Joe's machine shop has a specialized equipment to make a certain type of parts and they are VERY good at it.  Pen manufacture companies A, B and C all have need of that part so they all three contact out to Joe's machine shop to make them that one part.  Manufacture companies D, E and F use some other outfit.  By the time the kits get to our hands we have rumors floating around that manufacture A is epic high quality, manufacture B is super low quality and manufacture C is so-so quality.  Yet they all three use the exact same machine shop to make the part.  

This leads into design which is honestly where I was thinking vendors in the community would push this and where it should be pushed.

Ok, I was ask for labels, here goes. ...


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## Joe S. (Feb 2, 2014)

> Consider this. Joe's machine shop has a specialized equipment to make a certain type of parts and they are VERY good at it. Pen manufacture companies A, B and C all have need of that part so they all three contact out to Joe's machine shop to make them that one part. Manufacture companies D, E and F use some other outfit. By the time the kits get to our hands we have rumors floating around that manufacture A is epic high quality, manufacture B is super low quality and manufacture C is so-so quality. Yet they all three use the exact same machine shop to make the part.



So now I'm making parts of kit A _and_ I consider it to be a piece of junk? What's wrong with me?!?


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## mikespenturningz (Feb 2, 2014)

Wow Ed you put a lot of information into that post. Thanks.


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## ironman123 (Feb 2, 2014)

I was going to say "here is Ed playing with his macro lens again" but after reading all of his posts on this I really appreciate his findings and his effort.

Thanks Ed,

Ray


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## ttm7 (Feb 3, 2014)

thanks for that post edstreet. 
makes sense, maybe we as pen makers should actually start to make the whole pen.
i believe we have some folks on here that have done just that. that would be very interesting. really got me thinking; imagine selling a pen that you made the whole of.
priceless 

now where to get the blue prints?
wow and i can buy more tools.....it just gets better and better.


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## Smitty37 (Feb 3, 2014)

I have told people many times that quality is one thing and one thing only conformance to spec.  It does not relate to where an item in made, how much it is priced at or whether one of it's parts is made on the same machine as some other item sold at a different price.  

There are several companies selling kits under their own branding.  That does not indicate that they make the kit nor does it assure that the next kit you buy from them will be made in the same place the last one was.


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## shortz1lla (Feb 3, 2014)

Wow, this is definitely an interesting read. I, for one, don't understand the negative views on this. It's almost as though certain individuals actually prefer to remain in the dark about the quality of kits they use... which translates in no small way to the quality of the end product said individuals are gifting/selling. Ignorance is bliss, but willful disregard is sad. Coming from call making, the most important aspect is the quality, each is made to the very best of my ability. This has carried over into pen making so every time I read that something is "ok" because it's hidden under the clip it makes me a little sad; these kinds of workarounds make us all look bad. "Not noticeable" isn't good enough.


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## Smitty37 (Feb 3, 2014)

*My personal take on this*

This is an interesting thread here is my opinion (some fact).
I don't think that many (If any) of the big players in this game are actual manufacturers.

Dayacom does not claim on their website to have an actual factory. they are really like an agent for buyers.
Berea hardwoods sales (even including Rockler, Woodcraft et. al.) does not have sales high enough to own their own facility unless they are also subcontracting to provide parts to others.  They claim not to work in China.
CSUSA gets many of their kits from Dayacom and does not own a manufacturing facility and I doubt their sales would support one if they wanted to.
PSI does not have sales high enough to support owning their own facility so I suspect they have arrangements to manufacture both in Taiwan and China - they might have direct contracts with factories but I would be surprised if the do.  I suspect they have an agent who acts in the same manner as Dayacom.
Rizheng is a large manufacturing company.  I suspect they do most of the manufacturing operations in house but I do know that they subcontract some of it out.
Timberbits claims to deal directly with factories both in China and Taiwan but do not claim the people they deal with are exclusive.
Lazerlinez makes their own here in the USA they also make Marksman.
Given that, I believe it will not be at all surprising to find that many of the parts are made in the same place - this will not have a direct impact on the price anymore that having tires made in the same factories has a direct impact on the price of cars.

We should also keep in mind.

Some parts are machined
Some parts are stamped
Some parts are plated and some are not.
Some parts are assemblies in their own Right
Some parts are plastic.
It would be quite unusual if all of those parts are made in the same place. 

Now, with all the above in mind, I am not sure what use I can put the information that can be gleaned from machine fingerprinting to. Nor is it obvious how I can make use of it.  If, as the evidence seems to show, that more that one brand is coming off the same manufacturing line, what does knowing that do for me.  

To gather that information across all the various brand/style combinations out there will take an enormous amount of work and expense for someone.  My question is:  Will it be worth the effort.


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## Haynie (Feb 3, 2014)

If this bugs people so much, it is time to roll your own.  Tooling is expensive, the learning curve is high, and the return on investment is negative.

Having said that and since I inherited tooling capable of most of what i wanted to do, and my initial outlay has been very little, it is a fun process to learn.


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## SteveG (Feb 3, 2014)

I think it is of value to know the general quality of individual components that make up a set or that represent  the general quality that a company or agent choses to offer or sale to the public (including me). Realizing that an agent for a given company can specify a level of quality to be provided to it by a manufacturer, then individual parts which may be produced by the same manufacturer can be produced to a different quality level. So for me, knowing a general quality level provided by a seller is useful, especially if a greatly magnifier image is made available that I would not otherwise have available. The same principle would apply across the board. For example, having available an analysis of plating type and quality. I welcome access to this type of info.


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## Smitty37 (Feb 3, 2014)

SteveG said:


> I think it is of value to know the general quality of individual components that make up a set or that represent the general quality that a company or agent choses to offer or sale to the public (including me). Realizing that an agent for a given company can specify a level of quality to be provided to it by a manufacturer, then individual parts which may be produced by the same manufacturer can be produced to a different quality level. So for me, knowing a general quality level provided by a seller is useful, especially if a greatly magnifier image is made available that I would not otherwise have available. The same principle would apply across the board. For example, having available an analysis of plating type and quality. I welcome access to this type of info.


Do you think the kind of information shown here gives you that knowledge?


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## ed4copies (Feb 3, 2014)

_Now, with all the above in mind, I am not sure what use I can put the  information that can be gleaned from machine fingerprinting to. Nor is  it obvious how I can make use of it.  If, as the evidence seems to show,  that more that one brand is coming off the same manufacturing line,  what does knowing that do for me.  

To gather that information across all the various brand/style  combinations out there will take an enormous amount of work and expense  for someone. __ My question is:  Will it be worth the effort.
_
I can just hear Columbus and the queen:  "It's a big ocean and we have no idea what we will find or the hardships we will overcome---probably NOT worth the effort".

Ya suppose in those days they had the saying, "oh forget it!"

All experimentation has a value--it is up to us to discover how much value.


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## Smitty37 (Feb 3, 2014)

ed4copies said:


> _Now, with all the above in mind, I am not sure what use I can put the information that can be gleaned from machine fingerprinting to. Nor is it obvious how I can make use of it. If, as the evidence seems to show, that more that one brand is coming off the same manufacturing line, what does knowing that do for me. _
> 
> _To gather that information across all the various brand/style combinations out there will take an enormous amount of work and expense for someone. __My question is: Will it be worth the effort._
> 
> ...


 Ed, this is not experimentation it is simply gathering data that exsists and someone already knows what we'd be trying to find out.  My question stands.  

btw I'm not saying don't do the fingerprinting.  If I had the equipment I'd want to.  But, it will only confirm or deny what I already believe.


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## mark james (Feb 3, 2014)

I would suspect that the machined parts coming out of these factories are not made on one machine...  Therefore a single shot examination (however useful) is only that - an examination of that single part.

A true representation of the company's quality needs to come from a representative sample (QA).  This is in no way to critique the pictures of those single parts, they are what they are, some good, some bad.  However to say that that single representation typifies the quality of that company is not really accurate (although it may be totally accurate - you just can't make that leap of judgement).

The machine that produced a poor part is probably one of 5, 50, 100 such machines.  Yes, it may need an overhaul, but it shouldn't be assumed that ALL the machines are in need of repair.

Amazing pictures though


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## edstreet (Feb 3, 2014)

Plating issues is one thing that I have not looked at very much, yet.  Yet it does play a very key role but it is just one aspect of the overall picture.  Even Still plating seems to be the key winner here among IAP users.  As for testing the plating I am all open to ideas or suggestions as to how to evaluate, documents and show plating.

To yield any accurate data we would indeed need a good substantial volume of parts looked at, mostly what I posted and was running with was more proof of concept and proof of method.  I tried, and successful to I think, to show that it was very much possible to the common person.

we have seen a good number of smoke and mirror campaigns over the years from various sources and knowing the truth does indeed set you free. We can clearly see the 'what is' and regardless of what we are told proof is what you can see and touch.

When it comes down to the questions of 'why does it matter', 'why bother' or 'who cares' I would have to ask everyone some very simple things; How do you learn about design theory, where do you come up with new ideas on how to make things.  The answer to every one of these is simple, you look at what is out there now and see how they are being done, this helps your skill greatly improve. By NOT looking at these things you stagnate your skills and stunt your growth potential.


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## Smitty37 (Feb 3, 2014)

Testing of Plating involves destructive testing to measure almost anything except brightness.


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## Smitty37 (Feb 3, 2014)

plating is funny though- thicker can be better to a point after which it can be worse depending on the plating and the substrate. and oddly enough, the "best" platings are also the thinest.


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## ttm7 (Feb 4, 2014)

since some here sell their work: 
would it not be to their benefit to filter fit and finish. 

it would seem to me that the quality of the little things
give that "awe" we are so eager to display here on a regular basis; ie
look what i just made..

we as a group should scrutinize these kit manufactures and share with one another the aspects of the quality we long for.

in short the beauty of the work at the lathe is squandered on a lackluster pen kit   *imho*


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