# Are kitless pens the highest quality pen?



## Andrew_K99 (Jan 31, 2012)

A comment on this thread got me to thinking about what penturners think of kitless pens. Are they what we should all be working towards to make the best possible pens? Or are they just the pens that take the most amount of effort, tooling and/or skill to make?

AK


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## alphageek (Jan 31, 2012)

Here is my take on it:

Its not a matter of quality.   Quality is based on your limiting factor.   For example, in a kit pen, your limiting factor could be the material for the body, the quality of the kit, or the skill of the penmaker themself.

I think where kitless comes in is the other factors:
- Uniqueness or variation (IE - A kitless pen is likely more unique to you than one on a kit.... the key word is LIKELY as there is some pretty darn unique kit pens too)
- Styling (as in a "classically" styled pen).... A kitless pen will tend to look like a more 'expensive' pen.   A real collector is going to recognize the "kit" no matter what you do with the components from the kit.
- Skills ... A kitless pen requires more work/skills/time..(Because having the kit components saves people from having to do some of the touchiest things, like threading).   Therefore there may be a perception that a less than average kitless is better than a more than average kit pen.    However, a poorly made kitless will stand out just as much as a poorly made kit pen.


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## D.Oliver (Jan 31, 2012)

alphageek said:


> Here is my take on it:
> 
> Its not a matter of quality. Quality is based on your limiting factor. For example, in a kit pen, your limiting factor could be the material for the body, the quality of the kit, or the skill of the penmaker themself.
> 
> ...


 
I say Dean nailed it on the head.


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## Andrew_K99 (Jan 31, 2012)

alphageek said:


> ... A kitless pen will tend to look like a more 'expensive' pen ...


In the thread I linked above the comments at shows seemed to be the opposite, this is what got me thinking. As many of us know kitless pens take a lot more work and tend to look like vintage pens, something the collector will be keen on but the average person not so much.

I should have re-worded things or asked a different question.  I guess I could have asked what is your idea of a high end pen?  Kitless, kit or something in between.

AK


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## soligen (Jan 31, 2012)

IMO None of the above - Quality is in the opinion of the buyer, and everyone has different criteria. So, I dont think we can really disucss the difference in terms of quality.

I will say that both options have alternatives open to them that are not avaible (or not economically viable) to the other.

For example, the kits have shiney precious metal platings that are hard to get on Kitless (Clips being the one plated part kitless folks can sometimes get)

Kitless opens up a lot of degins possibilitys - but Modded kits can emulate a lot of these, However, I can make a kitless fountain pen they feels like it weights nothing compared to a kit fountain pen. I can also sometimes drill fatter or thinner on a kitless to adjust the balance of the pen.

It all depends on what your audience values


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## alphageek (Jan 31, 2012)

Andrew_K99 said:


> alphageek said:
> 
> 
> > ... A kitless pen will tend to look like a more 'expensive' pen ...
> ...



Ahh.. but that is all in perspective... A kitless could range from looking like  a "plain" vintage pen (thus expensive) to a VERY blingy "modern" expensive pen.    

I'm not sure your going to get a single answer to the question.   I think a kit will have a range from low to high end.   A kitless will also have a range from low to high end.     And those ranges overlap some.   

Lets say a kit pen can range from $20-$1000... a kitless could be $50- $10000 ....   High end could mean different things to each


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## Chasper (Jan 31, 2012)

Quality is a tough word to pin down.  Quality can mean precise adherence to pre-established standards.  That could leave one concluding that a perfectly crafted slim is very high quality.  Or quality could mean using higher grade components as well as perfect crafting.  I would substitute craftsmanship for quality when it comes to successfully meeting standards.  Outstanding craftsmanship is equally possible on a slim as on an Emperor.

Another commonly accepted part of quality is what I choose to call artistry; creativity, uniqueness, originality, a sense of awe and a mysterious inspirational quality that makes one want to say WOW.  There is a popular saying that “art is eye of the beholder.”  Personally I totally reject that weary adage.  I agree that there are no bright lines at the borders between art and not art, or good art and bad art.  But I think true fine art is readily recognizable by the sense of wonder it stirs.  That doesn’t mean I always like it, but I do believe that most of us can easily recognize it if we try.

I choose to define quality at being close to the same as artistic.  With that in mind I say that as a general rule, kitless is of higher quality, but only if the craftsmanship is flawless.  If, as you suggest, you were to modify the question to ask is kit or kittless more high end, I would still vote for kitless.

None of this changes my observation that kitless pens are tough to sell, they impress pen makers more than they impress pen buyers.  I can give away kitless pens to very appreciative recipients, but I can’t sell them.  At the art shows the other sellers are often interested in trading their art for kitless pens, but they aren’t willing to trade their money for them.


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## ed4copies (Jan 31, 2012)

Quality, like beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

If you are trying to sell  your creative masterpieces, you will talk about the things that make "the fruits of your labor" outstanding--and a good selling effort will find all the BEST points and sell those as quality.

So, you can sell either a "kit" or a "component" or a "component produced at home".

The "kit" pen will use metal at all the critical junctures--so it is likely to be the most durable.  Some have called this the measure of quality----could be, could not be.

When the "kit" pen had a plastic junction for the nib, "component" pen guys screamed it was CRAP---the manufacturers "upgraded" to metal.  But MOST "component free" pens are using plastic threaded to accept the nib----we don't call those CRAP, but I have yet to discern the difference.

In truth, either a component pen, or a component-less pen, if properly handled by its owner, should not NEED excessive durability.  So, is "lacking durability" the same as "lacking quality"?

Those who prefer to eschew the components certainly are creating more work for themselves.  But, if the end product is of "higher quality" will remain a case by case evaluation.  They are NOT inherently BETTER, they ARE inherently different.

A good sales "pitch" can be built for either product.

As to showing them at craft or art fairs---I would certainly take both, if I was making "component-less".  Just so I could accentuate the durability for those who will NOT treat their pens as "art-pieces".

That accounted for a VERY HIGH percentage of my customers, when we sold in "art and craft" venues.

If the customer is going to DROP the pen, I far prefer a COMPONENT pen---it CAN be repaired more easily.


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## Andrew_K99 (Jan 31, 2012)

alphageek said:


> ...I'm not sure your going to get a single answer to the question...


I've realised that ... it wasn't worded correctly ... :befuddled:

AK


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## alphageek (Jan 31, 2012)

Andrew_K99 said:


> alphageek said:
> 
> 
> > ...I'm not sure your going to get a single answer to the question...
> ...



:biggrin::biggrin:   I can't wait till you manage to word the question correctly to get a single answer!


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## joefyffe (Jan 31, 2012)

Dean: I don't think that's going to happen so you may be waiting a while!! :biggrin:


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## Holz Mechaniker (Jan 31, 2012)

A kitless pen can be as simple as a 12 cent pen via Cap't Eddie of you tube
or with all tools available we one can create awesome pens


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## Smitty37 (Jan 31, 2012)

*Quality vs Luxury*

There is a lot of confusion about quality and luxury....to quality control experts quality is conformance to specification, hence either kit or kitless and either high low or in the middle price can be excellent or poor quality.

To that part of the world who like to be confused quality can mean anything and hence it means nothing.  Under a definition that says quality is an "opinion" quality means nothing at all because your opinion and mine can differ hence high quality to me might mean junk to you.  The (in my opinion) proper definition of quality if I say it is good quality, you know exactly what I mean - it conforms to its specification.

In either case there is no ture answer to the question as asked.  Most "kitless" pens contain some kit parts - or parts that exactly (or nearly exactly) replicate kit parts and could just as easily be chosen from kits.  Many "kitless" pens replace some kit parts (or even all) with hand turned parts that perform the same function i.e. replacing caps or bands or tips or even clips with hand made.  The business end of all pens kit or kitless is a manufactured part, probably mass produced somewhere bock nibs are not all hand made.....

Truth is that a pen can be mass produced that is better in just about every way than what we can produce by hand.  With the possible exception of some of the barrel materials.   




Chasper said:


> Quality is a tough word to pin down. Quality can mean precise adherence to pre-established standards. That could leave one concluding that a perfectly crafted slim is very high quality. Or quality could mean using higher grade components as well as perfect crafting. I would substitute craftsmanship for quality when it comes to successfully meeting standards. Outstanding craftsmanship is equally possible on a slim as on an Emperor.
> 
> Another commonly accepted part of quality is what I choose to call artistry; creativity, uniqueness, originality, a sense of awe and a mysterious inspirational quality that makes one want to say WOW. There is a popular saying that “art is eye of the beholder.” Personally I totally reject that weary adage. I agree that there are no bright lines at the borders between art and not art, or good art and bad art. But I think true fine art is readily recognizable by the sense of wonder it stirs. That doesn’t mean I always like it, but I do believe that most of us can easily recognize it if we try.
> 
> ...


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## studioso (Jan 31, 2012)

I feel differently. I think that a component pen cannot truly be considered high end. Even it writes magnificiently, and it's dressed in a one of a kind blank, the very fact that anyone can buy the same metal parts and make a similar pen (lets not even get into the eBay issue) negates it the status of high end. 

Yes there are advantages, they are sturdy and durable, reliable etc. and they DO look good. 
And yes, they can be expensive, you can have a 1000$ Damascus Pen, and you can charge 100'000 if you can get your hands on George washington's cherry tree. But we know the truth (which is also why we are afraid to call them kits!)


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## Smitty37 (Jan 31, 2012)

*question*

Do Mont Blanc and other top pen manufacturers make high end pens?  By your definition they don't.  High end is (in my opinion) determined pretty much by price.  

The fact is Ferrari automobiles are made in a factory, and while each of them has a certain amount of custom work they also are made using a lot of common components that anyone can buy and build a similar car....but Ferrari's are high end cars.

My opinion is, if someone takse a fairly common kit (say a Lotus or other higher priced component set) and when they make the barrel they encrust it with 2000 Diamonds and some high class hand engraving - they are going to have a high end pen, particularily if the maker has a well known name.



studioso said:


> I feel differently. I think that a component pen cannot truly be considered high end. Even it writes magnificiently, and it's dressed in a one of a kind blank, the very fact that anyone can buy the same metal parts and make a similar pen (lets not even get into the eBay issue) negates it the status of high end.
> 
> Yes there are advantages, they are sturdy and durable, reliable etc. and they DO look good.
> And yes, they can be expensive, you can have a 1000$ Damascus Pen, and you can charge 100'000 if you can get your hands on George washington's cherry tree. But we know the truth (which is also why we are afraid to call them kits!)


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## drgoretex (Feb 1, 2012)

FWIW (pretty much what has already been said), a high quality kit is a high quality kit.  If it is done well, you have a high quality pen.  Same in reverse with cheap/low quality kit.

A well made kitless pen is a high quality pen, but a poorly made one is not.

I have to add, though that in my experience, most fountain pen kits include lower quality nibs (although better kits like the Imperial, for instance, can have sometimes have pretty decent ones).  In some of these kits, it is easy enough to replace the nib with a better one.  In some, it is much harder to do.

Ken


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## glycerine (Feb 1, 2012)

I don't think the OP is looking for a SINGLE answer, which is why there are four options in the poll.  He's looking for individual opinions... so if everyone answers based on how they define quality, I believe that will suffice.


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## Andrew_K99 (Feb 1, 2012)

glycerine said:


> I don't think the OP is looking for a SINGLE answer, which is why there are four options in the poll. He's looking for individual opinions... so if everyone answers based on how they define quality, I believe that will suffice.


That was the intent but I didn't word things that great. The other thread suggested that the general public doesn't care much for kitless pens as they don't seem high end. I was looking to get other pen turners thoughts on this. I may be brave enough to start another poll, if I can word things differently.

AK


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## Smitty37 (Feb 1, 2012)

*meaningful?*



Andrew_K99 said:


> glycerine said:
> 
> 
> > I don't think the OP is looking for a SINGLE answer, which is why there are four options in the poll. He's looking for individual opinions... so if everyone answers based on how they define quality, I believe that will suffice.
> ...


 
I don't think you can get a meaningful answer if you use the word "quality" because if what constitutes quality is itself an opinion then you could get  answers that say the same thing but mean something different.  Just above I saw the words "cheap/low quality kit"  What is cheap?  What is low quality"  Is there a direct corolation between "cheap" and "low quality".  Does the cost of the kit have an impact on the quality of the end result - is that impact more or less than the impact of the blank.  How about a "free" wood blank?  Does the fact that one goes out and finds a blank "free" make it a cheap blank.  Virtually all slimline kits are cheap compared to other kits....does that translate to low quality or is it more related to the fact that there is much higher volume production of slimline components than any other?  

But you might find a way to ask your question that makes sense.


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## studioso (Feb 1, 2012)

When studying production management we were told there quality could be defined as production quality, we're basically the Product is manufactured and sold with the least amount of rejects, failures and so on, and perceived quality, which is more a marketing thing and it relates to how consumer view a product. 
A few examples would be Toyota vs BMW, where one can argue that a Toyota is a superior product in terms or reliability ( at least up to. Few years ago!), and yet BMW is seen as a better car (not just more expensive). 
Look at the dyson vacuum cleaners: consumer reports  show that they don't necesseraly perform better than a 100$ dirt devil, yet people drop 5-600$ on them. 

When talking about high quality/ high end pens, I think that the production quality must be a given: obviously it must write smoothly, must not come apart your hands or lose the plating from normal usage. So all we are left, IMHO, is the perceived quality. 

Montblanc, as smithy pointed out, is seen as a quality pen. In reality, most model don't stand out, and all your paying for is the platinum trim and the white star on the cap.


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## Haynie (Feb 1, 2012)

A cheap ass pen is a cheap ass pen no matter if it is a component pen or componentless.  Now, like naughty pictures I may not be able to define it but I know it when I see it, just like everyone else but your definition of a naughty pic might not fit mine.  It is in the eye of the beholder.


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## mikespenturningz (Oct 18, 2012)

I would have to say I really like the kitless pens that I see but! I spend a lot of time getting just the right piece of wood out of a large piece, dying, stabilizing, casting, double, triple dying and so on. If the turning doesn't come out just so I redo it completely. I would not say that creating a pen out of a hardware set is less of a pen by a long shot! I am now trying to work wood into most of the pens that I make by casting worthless wood or working on the blank so it can accept the acrylic! I just don't think it would be fair in the least to classify each of the different methods!


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