# GM



## ed4copies (Aug 29, 2010)

Short for Government Math!!

After sending out several sample packs of pen refills, I got to thinking about the process.

The total weight was right around 6.2 ounces.  But the refills (5) weigh about an ounce.  So, why not just put them in an envelope??  Affix 44 cents and call it a day??

Because I tried that and the USPS "machinery" bent, fold, spindled and otherwise mutilated (only the old guys will remember this from IBM days) my refills!!!

So, I am now adding five ounces of padded envelopes to protect my refills.  This also raises the postage to the $2.50 neighborhood.

To conclude then, I am BUYING a special package, paying five times the postage all to assure my customers that the USPS will not DESTROY the merchandise I am MAILING to them.

Doesn't something seem "wrong" here???


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## OKLAHOMAN (Aug 29, 2010)

No more than the person who REALLY needs help and is told "your not on any of the goverment assistance programs so you don't qualify."


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## Chasper (Aug 29, 2010)

Take a piece of corregated cardboard, cut it a little smaller than the envelop, slide the refills in between the corregations, mail it first class.


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## bitshird (Aug 29, 2010)

Ed how dare you slander the USPS didn't you know they hold second place for the most packages destroyed in transit, they have only been out done by UPS, Have you considered encasing the refills in between sheets of quarter inch thick steel plate,sure it would cost more to ship them  But look at the amusing side of it,  it would drive them Postal trying to bend them? :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:


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## phillywood (Aug 29, 2010)

Chasper said:


> Take a piece of corregated cardboard, cut it a little smaller than the envelop, slide the refills in between the corregations, mail it first class.


 
+1, Ed I thought if you did that it shouldn't add that much weight to the envelope and you still stay within that range to qualify for the .44 stamp, or the other thing is corrugated plastic panels like they use for craft supply that rigid, but don't weigh that much.
You know you wouldn't get anywhere trying to fight with USPS, I never won a battle with them.


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## ed4copies (Aug 29, 2010)

Chasper said:


> Take a piece of corregated cardboard, cut it a little smaller than the envelop, slide the refills in between the corregations, mail it first class.



Wanna put a small side wager on this one, Gerry??

IF so, I will try that with the next ten I send--no special envelope, just a normal #10.  

I'm betting at least a 20% failure rate (2 of 10)

You game??


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## wolftat (Aug 29, 2010)

I still don't understand why you are confused, but then again I spent most of my life working for the gov't....LOL


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## Chasper (Aug 29, 2010)

ed4copies said:


> Chasper said:
> 
> 
> > Take a piece of corregated cardboard, cut it a little smaller than the envelop, slide the refills in between the corregations, mail it first class.
> ...



20% or more and you win, under 20% and I win?  With a sampling size of 10 that means if more than one gets destroyed you win.  I'll take that bet.  How about we make it a pen kit for the stakes, a Jr. Gent.  If I win I pay for a kit and you keep it, if you win I get a free kit.  How are we going to verify delivery condition?

Let me know when and where to send the $


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## DurocShark (Aug 29, 2010)

Beat me to it!


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## cozee (Aug 29, 2010)

Government Math?? 

They subscribe to no form of rational math known to mankind. Everything they get their hands on goes bankrupt.

Quit doing their math!


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## glycerine (Aug 29, 2010)

On the other hand, anything's better than not having a postal service at all.  Imagine if the only way people could get those refills was for them to pick them up at your "store", or for you to have to personally hand deliver them!
And, no, I don't work for the USPS, and I've had plenty of aggravations with them lately as well.  But, I'm just trying to get you to look on the bright side!


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## BKelley (Aug 29, 2010)

The USPS has a fragile stamp, it is attached to the face of a 10 pound sledge hammer!!


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## ed4copies (Aug 29, 2010)

Chasper said:


> ed4copies said:
> 
> 
> > Chasper said:
> ...




We can just ask people to let me know the condition when it arrives.  I'm sure they will be honest

Especially when I tell them that their freebees will be doubled in the next order IF there is any SIGN of damage to their envelope.  I don't think that will affect our "survey results", do you??:biggrin::biggrin:


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## Druid (Aug 29, 2010)

I normally do not weigh in on this type of conversation for various reasons.  And no, I am not employed by USPS although I do have a tendancy towards the desire to go "Postal" at times.  Thank God for the straight jacket, thorazine, and the little blue pills that keep me "sane". :biggrin:.


Here is some interesting factual info about the USPS:

*The Modern Postal Service: Agency or Business?*
Until adoption of the Postal Reorganization Act of 1970, the U.S. Postal Service functioned as a regular, tax-supported, agency of the federal government.
According to the laws under which it now operates, the U.S. Postal Service is a semi-independent federal agency, mandated to be revenue-neutral. That is, it is supposed to break even, not make a profit.
In 1982, U.S. postage stamps became "postal products," rather than a form of taxation. Since then, The bulk of the cost of operating the postal system has been paid for by customers through the sale of "postal products" and services rather than taxes.
Each class of mail is also expected to cover its share of the costs, a requirement that causes the percentage rate adjustments to vary in different classes of mail, according the costs associated with the processing and delivery characteristics of each class.

*No, the USPS is a Business!*
the Postal Service takes on some several very non-governmental attributes via the powers granted to it under Title 39, Section 401, which include:


power to sue (and be sued) under its own name;


power to adopt, amend and repeal its own regulations;


power to "enter into and perform contracts, execute instruments, and determine the character of, and necessity for, its expenditures";


power to buy, sell and lease private property; and,


power to build, operate, lease and maintain buildings and facilities.
All of which are typical functions and powers of a private business. However, unlike other private businesses, the Postal Service is exempt from paying federal taxes. USPS can borrow money at discounted rates, and can condemn and acquire private property under governmental rights of eminent domain.
The USPS does get some taxpayer support. Around $96 million is budgeted annually by Congress for the "Postal Service Fund." These funds are used to compensate USPS for postage-free mailing for all legally blind persons and for mail-in election ballots sent from US citizens living overseas. A portion of the funds also pays USPS for providing address information to state and local child support enforcement agencies, and for keeping some rural posts offices in operation.
Under federal law, only the Postal Service can handle or charge postage for handling letters. Despite this virtual monopoly worth some $45 billion a year, the law does not require that the Postal Service make a profit -- only break even. Still, the US Postal Service has averaged a profit of over $1 billion per year in each of the last five years. Yet, Postal Service officials argue that they must continue to raise postage at regular intervals in order make up for the increased use of email.


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## leestoresund (Aug 29, 2010)

What the lady at the USPS told me was that it could not go first class because it would go through the machine and get dinged up.
Had to pay $2.02 for the privilege of hand stamping.
So at least I know why.

Lee


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## Parson (Aug 29, 2010)

Yup, the "discount" is all about using automation, which ain't so kind to lumpy #10 envelopes.

I loathe the USPS. Fedex and UPS should join forces to run them out of business for good.


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## ed4copies (Aug 29, 2010)

Jim,

I'm looking to be informed, not argumentative.

_"Still, the US Postal Service has averaged a profit of over $1 billion per year in each of the last five years."_

IF this statement is true, then WHY do they quote a $2 billion shortfall, which could be eliminated by taking away Postal delivery one day a week, which they say will reduce their costs by $3 billion per year.??

Now, as to the VALUE of the Postal Service--

I believe it is low cost on the worldwide scale and I think they deliver a very large percentage of their mail, accurately.  And, to be fair, I understand they NEED machines to process the huge volume they do daily.

Just seems they could find machines that were a little more "gentle" to the envelopes.  OR set up a class of mail that allows us to pay for the merchandise sent, not add to the postage for our expenses to PROTECT our merchandise from THEIR machines.


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## Santacraig (Aug 29, 2010)

Mail the refills to a 3rd party for evaluation !


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## Chasper (Aug 29, 2010)

The $2 billion short fall is for funding of retirement benefits.  USPS earns $1 billion annually from operations but they are not able to cover the retirement account from operations.  Like some other industries and larger businesses, USPS has considerably more retirees than employees, and the cost of retiree benefits has gone up.  There is not enough cash generated by the current lower volume.

One could make a good case that they have done a good job adjusting to the declining mail volume.  The decline in volume is primarily the result of online issues.  USPS has responded by cutting hours, staffing, increasing automation (OCR sorting machines tend to chew up thick letters), and other cost cuts.  The elimination many smaller post offices and Saturday hours has been on the table for decades as additional cost cutting oppotrunities but there has repeatedly been congressional opposition.  Since membership on the postal Board of Govenors is a congressionally approved appointment, congress still has considerable influence even though USPS is quasi-independent. 

Of course you will share the names of the people you are sending refills to....won't you?  I may have a few freebies to offer them as well.


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## ed4copies (Aug 29, 2010)

Our Privacy Policy forbids sharing names, sorry!!!

We would be happy to tell you which postal zip codes!!!


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## ed4copies (Aug 29, 2010)

On a serious note , Thanks Gerry---that makes sense.


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## Smitty37 (Aug 29, 2010)

*shipping*



ed4copies said:


> Short for Government Math!!
> 
> After sending out several sample packs of pen refills, I got to thinking about the process.
> 
> ...


 
I use a U-line #0 bubble envelope which weighs in at about half an ounce and send it first class parcel.


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## ed4copies (Aug 29, 2010)

That's exactly what I did with 10 of my first "experiments".
About half sent emails that the refills were damaged.


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## Druid (Aug 29, 2010)

ed4copies said:


> Jim,
> 
> I'm looking to be informed, not argumentative.
> 
> ...


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## Smitty37 (Aug 29, 2010)

*rock vs hard spot*



ed4copies said:


> That's exactly what I did with 10 of my first "experiments".
> About half sent emails that the refills were damaged.


 
You have a real problem...corrugated mailers add cost (they sure don't give them away) and weight cutting corrugated material to mail in regular envelopes adds weight and extra work.  Bubble mailers aren't tough enough.  You probably also run into folks (like me) who don't want to order more than two at a time because they are sure they'll forget where they store any extras.


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## ed4copies (Aug 29, 2010)

"Sampling" is not supposed to be a profit center.  So, it is no big deal.  But I was intrigued as I evaluated the program to decide if I should repeat it.

Probably not.


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## Druid (Aug 29, 2010)

Interesting challange in that your constrained by the Nonmachinable clause in first class service:

Letters that meet one or more of the nonmachinable characteristics below are subject to the $0.20 nonmachinable surcharge. For items over 3.5 ounces, see Large Envelope or Package.

It is a square letter (the minimum size for a square envelope is 5 x 5 inches.)
It is too rigid - does not bend easily
It has clasps, string, buttons, or similar closure devices
It has an address parallel to the shorter dimension of the letter
It contains items such as pens that cause the surface to be uneven
The length divided by height is less than 1.3 or more than 2.5


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## ed4copies (Aug 29, 2010)

They rectified the problem by rendering the "pens" far more "even" than they were when they left.

"Smashed" was a description I heard.:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

"Even" does sound better!!


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## Druid (Aug 29, 2010)

I'm wondering if you package it in such a way that meets the requirements of first class nonmachinable, pay the surcharge and instruct the USPS that it is "nonmachinable" if the service will still render it "smashed" (although I did get a chuckle from you description :biggrin.  

There must be some kind of standard that they use since I still get samples of all kinds of stuff (including tooth paste) that is delivered intact and at a first class rate without the requirement of forming a contract.


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## Smitty37 (Aug 30, 2010)

*USPS Profit*



ed4copies said:


> Jim,
> 
> I'm looking to be informed, not argumentative.
> 
> ...


The statement on PO profit came from an outdated source....according to CBS news in 2009 USPS was facing a 4.7 billion loss by June of 2009 and was projecting a 7 billion loss for the full year. They blame their losses on loss of mail volume due to email and other electronic communications replacing 1st class letter mail.  But, none of that helps with your problem.


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## PenMan1 (Aug 30, 2010)

Ed:
you forgot the important part. By adding the padded envelope and extra postage, you also slowed down the delivery to your customer by one to two days. Government! Geez!


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## snyiper (Aug 30, 2010)

Im with Gerry Ed sorry I think he has the cards in his favor...LOL especially if you use a piece of old election signs that plastic cardboard it is light and strong.


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## maxwell_smart007 (Aug 30, 2010)

Would having the post office 'hand cancel' the stamps help?  

Not sure where along the lines your products are being damaged...

Andrew


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## DCBluesman (Aug 30, 2010)

If you use the automated label and postage generators, i.e. PayPal, postage.com and the like, the letters do not have to be cancelled.  Nonetheless, I have resorted to using this padding and paying the $.20 surcharge for a thick envelope.  So far, no issues...although I do not mail nearly the number of packages you do!


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## Smitty37 (Aug 30, 2010)

*plastic tubes*

Those square plastic pen tubes 3/4 X 6 at about 70 cent and 00 bubble mailers for about 25/30 cents might work out to be the cheapest safest way....The tubes would hold quite a few refills and the tube and mailer combo don't weigh more than 2 ounces.  Still fairly expensive shipping but maybe less than some other methods.


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