# Single point threading.



## jd99 (May 1, 2012)

Has any one ever tried doing single point threading when making their pens instead of paying for taps and dies?

I noticed that for the most part because the thread sizes are non-standard the prices get marked up for the taps and dies.

I know when I did  my minture modeling stuff (havent done it for a couple three years) If I can I would single point what I needed, If I couldn't do that I would make my own tap by single point threading a peice of tool steel then make the cutting edge on it, and use the tap to make a die, then make the parts, or screws etc.

Did that down to 00 and 000 sizes before.


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## thewishman (May 1, 2012)

You can certainly do that - it just takes more twists to get the cap on or off.


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## jd99 (May 1, 2012)

thewishman said:


> You can certainly do that - it just takes more twists to get the cap on or off.


You can still do triple start threads by single pointing, you just start the second and third starts on a different number or letter on ther lead screw indicator.

Thats why those numbers or letters are on it.

Made a few oil drilling items with triple start threads (all single point threading) in my days


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## IPD_Mr (May 1, 2012)

jd99 said:


> I noticed that for the most part because the thread sizes are non-standard the prices get marked up for the taps and dies.


 
They don't get marked up because they are non-standard sizes.  If you are a manufacturer and a standard size you make 50,000 pieces, then your cost is going to be much cheaper than if you are only making 12-24.  Now I am sure that if we wanted to a 50k piece group buy then the price would drop considerably.  :biggrin:  Basically what your looking at is custom sizes not non-standard.


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## jd99 (May 1, 2012)

IPD_Mr said:


> jd99 said:
> 
> 
> > I noticed that for the most part because the thread sizes are non-standard the prices get marked up for the taps and dies.
> ...


Not really true I have family that are in the industrial tool supply, and have been for generations. Metric stuff here in the states are shiped in with the standard sizes someone in the states at some time determined were standard.

But the other sizes we don't see i.e. the sizes used on pens, are manufactured, and used in large lots over seas (already verified this with a buyer for a company you might use), (you think those screw machines popping out the metal pen parts dont use taps).

They are there (not custom sizes) but for the most part are not over here because they wouldn't sell that quickly here, no one wants to be stocking a box of taps that takes you 10 20 years to sell.

If I wanted to I could get them but because they aren't what is standard here I would pay a premium to have them special shipped, and i wouldn't get any quanitity discount because i wouldn't be ordering in the same size lot as the other more standard items. Hence the markup.


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## TerryDowning (May 1, 2012)

Need to get a metal lathe first....
Unless there is a way to make accurate, fine, single point threads on a wood lathe.


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## jd99 (May 1, 2012)

TerryDowning said:


> Need to get a metal lathe first....
> Unless there is a way to make accurate, fine, single point threads on a wood lathe.


 Ya gotta be really quick with that parting tool. :wink:


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## TerryDowning (May 1, 2012)

jd99 said:


> TerryDowning said:
> 
> 
> > Need to get a metal lathe first....
> ...



A really fine parting tool at that:biggrin:!!


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## mredburn (May 1, 2012)

Taps and dies are quicker to use when your only threading one part and only small distances. I single point thread the outside of the wood pens I make but use a tap for the inside threads.  I  have a separate lathe set up just to do threading. Most of it is the time factor. by the time you change to your threading tool, set it up, set your compound slide to 29 or 29 1/2 cut your threads, Your already done with the tap and die set.


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## jd99 (May 1, 2012)

mredburn said:


> Taps and dies are quicker to use when your only threading one part and only small distances. I single point thread the outside of the wood pens I make but use a tap for the inside threads. I have a separate lathe set up just to do threading. Most of it is the time factor. by the time you change to your threading tool, set it up, set your compound slide to 29 or 29 1/2 cut your threads, Your already done with the tap and die set.


Yea but single point threading would make it a true craftsman or should I say craftsperson made pen. 

Maybe go another step further and make your own feed, not because it is harder just because of the craftsmanship of it. :wink: 

Set the compound to 1/2 degree less of the pitch angle e.g. 29 1/2 for 60 degree threads (Comon Thread), and 14 for 29 degree thread (Acme), etc.


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## John Den (May 1, 2012)

I'm with you Danny!!
Let me know if you have success with single point,
Best of Luck!
Regards,
John


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## manik (May 1, 2012)

Might take a look at this article. Way above my capabilities but some can do it.
http://content.penturners.org/library/techniques/skiprats_triple_start_threading.pdf


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## jd99 (May 1, 2012)

manik said:


> Might take a look at this article. Way above my capabilities but some can do it.
> http://content.penturners.org/library/techniques/skiprats_triple_start_threading.pdf


 Yea I've seen that before, and yes thats one way of doing it but in no offence to Skiprat he does some amazing things, he does that with the lathe off.

I was talking about threading using the lathe on, I've made thousands maybe hundreds of thousands of miles of thread all by single point threading, during my career.

Ive never seen any one attempt it, I just was wondering if anyone had tried it.

I might try it just for the challange, and for bragging rights :wink:

I also thought about trying to make my own feed from scratch, but I haven't been able to find any drawings for feeds. Yet. :wink:

Sometimes it's good to challange your self to keep the skill set sharp. :biggrin:


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## Justturnin (May 1, 2012)

You dang Metal Lathe folks are a bunch of big fancy word using show offs.

I wanna play.....:redface:


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## seamus7227 (May 1, 2012)

jd99 said:


> Yea I've seen that before, and yes thats one way of doing it but in no offence to Skiprat he does some amazing things, he does that with the lathe off.
> 
> I was talking about threading using the lathe on, I've made thousands maybe hundreds of thousands of miles of thread all by single point threading, during my career.
> 
> ...


 
No offense, but since you seem to know so much, quit talking about it and make a tutorial, take the braggin rights, and then sit down. :biggrin:


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## frank123 (May 1, 2012)

Single pointing external threads in place of using a die (on a home hobby type of lathe) is simple and easy - and it doesn't take all that long to master the process in soft materials.

Single point internal threading for a small bore (i.e. 6.5mm, 8mm, or 9mm) is difficult since you usually have to grind your own tool bit and have no visual verification of the threads while doing it.  A tap is much faster and easier and easily worth the expense (at least to me).

Some lathes thread both inch and metric threads fairly well, but my experience is that they usually thread a perfect pitch only in one and approximate the other.  

For example, a common "mini lathe" set up for inch threads can approximate most metric pitches to thread at least one or two diameters but beyond that the slight pitch error makes the threads start binding (one or two diameters of threading, such as being able to screw a 9mm thread on for 18 mm before it binds) is all you will normally need.  (Use the closest to perfect pitch gear setup as possible, even if it means you have to purchase an additional custom gear to achieve it.  Never disengage the leadscrew when threading a pitch other than the pitch the machine is made for, just reverse the lathe to back it up)


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## Texatdurango (May 1, 2012)

jd99 said:


> ....Yea but single point threading would make it a true craftsman or should I say craftsperson made pen.
> 
> Maybe go *another step further* and make your own feed, not because it is harder just because of the craftsmanship of it. :wink:
> 
> Set the compound to 1/2 degree less of the pitch angle e.g. 29 1/2 for 60 degree threads (Comon Thread), and 14 for 29 degree thread (Acme), etc.



If all you're after is bragging rights, how about you going* another step further* and set the entire lathe aside, pull out your trusty pocket knife and just whittle yourself a pen from a solid hunk of acrylic, metal or wood!  THAT would be a truer hand crafted pen and something worty of bragging about! :biggrin:

I have a metal lathe, I bought it with threading as one of the main reasons, did some threading for a while but it was more trouble than it was worth.  I can grab a tap and cut the threads in a minute or less, the same with the die and that's less than half the time it takes just to change gears on the lathe.

I'll stick with my taps and dies, forgo the bragging rights and just enjoy my time in the shop. :tongue:


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## jd99 (May 1, 2012)

seamus7227 said:


> No offense, but since you seem to know so much, quit talking about it and make a tutorial, take the braggin rights, and then sit down. :biggrin:


If you look at my first post I was asking if any one has tried it, the other are just a discussion of doing it.

Hate to break it to you but some times just bs'n about stuff might come up with a better way of doing stuff or a different way. 

I have a lathe with a full set of gears along with some specials ones I ordered; I can cut just about any pitch there is. also I was wondering if some one has tried also to make their own tools instead of paying the inflated prices for "Custom Taps & Dies"


I from time to time make stuff and make my own tools to do the job even though I could go buy the tools. Just because I like the challenge.

just sorta thinking out loud.

I got another theory on getting a pen body and the press in components (final, coupler, nib, etc) to match diameters perfectly with in less than .001" every time; but I guess i'll save that for another place and time, or site. 

Sorry to rattle the cage.

I'll drop it now since It has some shook, and ya gotta be in the clique to discuss stuff.


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## Texatdurango (May 1, 2012)

Seamus I didn't know you were in any cliques yet, which one are you in or are you in several?

Hanging around Don I would suspect you were in with that "Texas bunch" but they aren't so much a clique as just a bunch of good ole boys.

Just curious :wink:


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## PTownSubbie (May 1, 2012)

jd99 said:


> seamus7227 said:
> 
> 
> > No offense, but since you seem to know so much, quit talking about it and make a tutorial, take the braggin rights, and then sit down. :biggrin:
> ...


 
Before you go an get all high and mighty....you might want to go back and reread your posts about how you have seen it all and done a ton of this already when someone suggested some stuff to you....

I can see where Seamus is coming from! Especially when you say "no offence to Skiprat"... in my book when you have to say this.... you have already caused offense..... Skiprat is one of the innovators that keep people motivated on this site.... I wish we saw him more often!

Just my point of view on how this thread degraded rapidly..... You know the moto around here.....no pics didn't happen!! So without sounding the same as the others.... lets see it. I can be done but there are drawbacks as stated above.....

You will find that the majority of the single point threading around here is done with less expensive tap and die sets to determine if there is a way forward before they go and spend all the money on expensive triple start systems..... Not many people do it with a lathe. If you can afford a metal lathe, you can usually afford the triple start tap and die expense..... Just my 2 cents.....


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## PenPal (May 1, 2012)

Danny,

Dont you go away exercise your rights as a member to do and say it your way, there is no right and wrong way to communicate only speak up. I do not detect malice intended by others, have respect for their rights HOWEVER I ask you all when was the last time we had a man with this much stated knowledge willing to share in his own way in his own time bs ing in his weay well I say its a while.

Dont go Danny dont fall for the I must have anything but share with us I may say Skiprat is a friend also and I know he will appreciate whatever you care to discuss, you have shared a lot for mine my mind is racing. OK I do have two metal lathes so what one was made in 1967 a Hercus in good nick, A Taig (cheap as IMHO) well within all our means but I also know threading taps and dies are available reasonably as well. Had some countries agreed long ago to conform to a world standard we would not be having this discussion.

At one time here in Australia we had SEVEN rail guages, have a look at a map and see how many train changes that would mean to navigate this great country of ours. We now have a standard guage railway system.

OK this wont happen tomorrow would those members in the UK and Europe accept the challenge with a list of wanted taps, dies wanted sizes help with availability from their side of the trough.

I wait with happy anticipation further musings from you Danny exactly called sharing, shooting the breeze whatever, Seamus also a friend spends a great deal of time with his tongue in his cheek weathering the interminably detailed questions on how he does things as well.

Life is way too short not to be happy, Kind regards Peter.


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## jd99 (May 2, 2012)

Thanks, Peter

I don't plan on running any where, maybe some mis read what I trying to get them to think about.

Maybe I think a kitless pen when you just turn a tube use a manufactured  feed, clip, (or use a thread that sort of match but are ok because your only using a turn and half of engagement), arent a true repesentation of pure craftsmanship.

But thats what I think and there nothing anyone else can do, I was just trying to think out of the box. 

And to those of you dont like it.

So What!! tough S___


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## glycerine (May 2, 2012)

I made a pen from a feather once... Guess who made the feather?  Not me!  I see what you mean about making more of the pen and using less "pre-made" parts, but even then, even if you cast your own acrylic, where did the resin, catalyst and dyes/powders come from?  If you make your own feed, who made the material that you made the feed from?  You will never TRULY make an entire pen from "scratch"... in theory, yes, in reality, no.
As far as making your own tools, I BELIEVE that Skiprat used the triple start rod that he made in that tutorial and made a tap from it.  Grind/file a taper on the end, cut some flutes in it and bob's your uncle.


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## chriselle (May 2, 2012)

jd99 said:


> Thanks, Peter
> 
> I don't plan on running any where, maybe some mis read what I trying to get them to think about.
> 
> ...




Huh??


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## Texatdurango (May 2, 2012)

jd99 said:


> Thanks, Peter
> 
> I don't plan on running any where, maybe *some** mis read what I trying to get them to think about.*
> 
> ...



What you were trying to get us to think about???  I'm with Chris... HUH?

The way I remember it your post started with a *question*; "_Has any one ever tried doing single point threading when making their pens instead of paying for taps and dies?_" To which several people replied, myself included and almost everyone indicated that we had done our own threading on our lathes but if I remember correctly, everyone said they would prefer to use taps and dies instead.  After several replied you sorta switched gears and started telling us how much experience you had threading (thousands of miles of threads) and that you might do some threading yourself so you would have bragging rights.

Well, sorry to inform you but people here have been doing threading on their lathes for years, single start and multi-start as well so it's a little late for bragging rights.  Just because you don't see them posting doesn't mean it's not happening.  As an example, Bluewolf did some amazing metal pens 10 years ago where he made everything from bulk metal but the ink refill itself and I think the only thing that stopped him was that he didn't know how to formulate the ink!

We sit around BS'ing about one thing or another all the time, nothing wrong with that and if you want to make a pen where you do all the threading on the lathe, make your own feed, hammer out and shape your own nib, build a fire pit in your back yard and forge your own metal to make the clip, that's all fine, we'd love to hear about it BUT... you don't have to knock what others are doing in the process just because they don't cut their threads the way you think they should to show that they too are craftsmen in their own rights!


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## John Den (May 2, 2012)

*Never Mind Aye*

I was genuinely pleased to find your thread, Danny, and hoped some of my own thoughts would be explored. I have been a bit disappointed by others responses!

I am myself considering using single point as a possible better way of machining the cap screw thread.

I have had the following thoughts on single point:


The Timberbits Gentlemens Junior Pen has a 4 start “normal” triangular thread form, whereas the USA Craft Supplies Gentlemens Junior Pen has a “more complicated” 3 start, Acme type thread form.
a.      Both have the same lead approximately
b.      The Craft Supplies design is probably resistant to cross-threading/stripping.
c.      The Timberbits design, with its extra start, is possibly their attempt to produce an improved thread stripping resistance.

  You only need 1 to 1 ½ turns of multi thread therefore approximate gearing is accurate enough.

  One turn of the headstock is better done by simply turning the chuck by hand, with the change gears in place and the half nuts engaged, therefore removing necessity to worry about over-runs if power drive was used.

  Maybe my best way forward is to experiment a bit and see where it leads me! I’ll let you know if I get anywhere. The female thread seems a bit daunting at this stage and I was hoping to get some pointers from others – but it seems we are on our own Danny!

Kind Regards,
John


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## glycerine (May 2, 2012)

John, you are definitely NOT on your own.  There are a ton of folks that could help you if you want to do some threading on your lathe.  Just ask for help.
Danny asked if anyone had tried single point threading and several people gave an answer to that.  Some said that they had done it, but it took too long and they would rather use taps and dies.  He didn't ask for help, he just asked if anyone had tried, to which the answer was "yes".  If you are attempting the same thing and would like help, then ask for help...


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## PTownSubbie (May 2, 2012)

jd99 said:


> Thanks, Peter
> 
> I don't plan on running any where, maybe some mis read what I trying to get them to think about.
> 
> ...


 
I don't think there are any alternatives to a manufactured feed from a true feed manufacturer....I think I saw a thread somewhere in which a guy created a true KITLESS design as he made his own feed out of glass. That is truely KITLESS. Unless you have the skills to do glasswork, I don't see any other way to do it.

To me....a feed/feed housing/nib are required with kitless designs and I don't think these are kit parts (at least in my mind). Just my opinion....

Any other method you use is what you have available. Only you and your customers can determine quality craftsmanship....


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## John Den (May 2, 2012)

I also have done my fair share of thread cutting, multi start etc. starting in my apprenticeship half a century ago! 


The point I was trying to make was that there are more things to think about in design than just whether one can afford taps and dies which give you quick results. 



Single point threading enables you to explore things like thread form pitch, lead etc. ..................But maybe it doesn’t matter at all. ...........as long as they don’t come bouncing back with stripped threads it’s all OK.


Regards,
  John


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## mredburn (May 2, 2012)

one point to consider is that most of the members here are turners not machinists. Although they are exploring new ground with their new metal lathes they would rather make a pen than make a tool to make parts for a pen. I have done single point inside threading until the tap arrived. On Ebay someone sells micro carbide inside single tooth cutters with a 60 degree profile. I have bought a couple of them.


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## Rich L (May 2, 2012)

I'm sure someone on this forum has done it - hand chasing threads. Years ago I saw a video of a gentleman doing that on an acrylic pen blank. All he had was the blank turning in a spindle and he used no tool rests for turning or chasing the threads. I wish I could find it - it was impressive.

Anyone tried _that_?

Cheers,
Rich


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## Ted (May 2, 2012)

Was this it, Rich?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6ic1jvaoiU&feature=player_embedded#!


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## Rich L (May 2, 2012)

You got it !!!!  I couldn't find it because I couldn't spell the search terms  :biggrin:

I owe you a beer!

Cheers,
Rich


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## chriselle (May 3, 2012)

That's one of the pen makers from the Hakase Pen Company.  Title says "third generation Shiyama (Shijou) Cutting Male Threads in Celluloid"....:wink:


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## Texatdurango (May 3, 2012)

chriselle said:


> That's one of the pen makers from the Hakase Pen Company.  Title says "third generation Shiyama (Shijou) Cutting Male Threads in Celluloid"....:wink:


Chris, Have you ever had a chance to visit any of the pen companies over there or do they keep things pretty close to the vest?  I think it would be a treat to visit and just watch those masters at work.


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## chriselle (May 3, 2012)

Texatdurango said:


> chriselle said:
> 
> 
> > That's one of the pen makers from the Hakase Pen Company.  Title says "third generation Shiyama (Shijou) Cutting Male Threads in Celluloid"....:wink:
> ...



No, I haven't.  The Pilot/Namiki factory is only about an hour or so drive from me.  I should indeed make an effort sometime to see if a lowly urushi hack could make a visit..:biggrin:


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## Ted (May 5, 2012)

Well, Rich, I'll be over straightaway. 

Chris, I have this sort of mental picture of you showing up at the gate of the Pilot factory, giving a curt nod and removing that Nebula (the one whose picture you posted) from your obi, at which point the gate guards bow very deeply and step aside.........................  

Hmmmm.....do they even _have_ a gate? No matter, more picturesque in the mind's eye with a gate.


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## Rich L (May 5, 2012)

Ted said:


> Well, Rich, I'll be over straightaway.



So how long does it take to get here from Schaad - wherever that is.  :wink:

The beer's warming up.

Cheers,
Rich


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