# This forum has certainly changed



## jleiwig (Jan 14, 2017)

So I know I'll get flamed for this and that's ok...it's all that seems to be happening around here lately so in that sense it's old hat at this point for IAP.  

Used to be a person could come in this place, post an idea or thought and get encouragement or at least helpful or positive constructive criticism.  All ideas, thoughts, and beliefs were at least respected. Not so anymore.

Maybe it's a sign of the times in the world, but to be frank, this place is so different compared to where it was when I was last heavily involved in 2010 or so that it's not really any fun at all and that makes me sad. I also notice a lot of people I used to know and respect here are gone; it seems their last posts here are that they aren't going to be posting anymore. I know why now.

At first I couldn't understand it, but I now see why a lot of people would choose the different Facebook pen turning groups over posting here. There is over 8000 members in the two I'm part of on Facebook.  Those people could make a great addition here, but at this point I probably would think twice about recommending they come here. 

Very few people are helpful here anymore. Someone makes a sarcastic post about a magnet pen that devolves into 4 pages of arguing about magnets and pacemakers.  Seriously?  This is a pen making forum...if you come to a pen making forum for info on pacemakers and magnets then God help you. If you think your an internet expert on magnets and pacemakers...God help you too.

Speaking of internet experts, don't even get me started on the elitism of a few here.  Not everyone wants, can afford, or needs the exact same tool you use.  Beautiful pens have been made on everything from a pole lathe to a drill press. If someone asks about what you perceive as a specific lesser tool, if you don't have any direct experience with the tool in question, keep your opinions to yourself.   When someone is looking at a $200 Harbor Freight lathe, suggesting an $800 Jet VS lathe really isn't helpful at all to the situation at hand.

Anyway....I guess this long winded diatribe is really just a way for me to say that I'm probably done posting here like many before me.  That makes me very sad because this was like a second home to me before where I made actual friends that persist still to this day and I was hoping that to be the case again. Thanks for the memories IAP.    

:bye:


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## mark james (Jan 14, 2017)

Fear not Justin!

Yup, things will change, but in general, my impression is that the IAP forum will adapt to changes in attitude and input (i.e.  the attitude reflected by its members responses, and the specificity and quality of their responses).  IAP will mature and grow with its membership.

I am an optimist!  Join us in the journey.


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## Scissortail Pens (Jan 14, 2017)

Guilty as charged, Justin.

David


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## mbroberg (Jan 14, 2017)

Just as it is in the real world, this forum is made up of many different personalities.  Some you will get along with, others your will not.  You will respect what some people have to say more than others.  But occasionally, even the the ones who normally put forth what you consider to be dribble will post something that actually helps you in your quest to make better pens..  Unlike real life you can click out of a conversation here whenever you want to.  So stick around.  Try not to react to posts that are off topic or posts you don't care for.  Don't let the minor negatives overshadow the huge positives of the IAP.


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## Skie_M (Jan 14, 2017)

JT, EdStreet, and Smitty are like oil and water ... sometimes EdStreet just rubs some people the wrong way, and sometimes it seems he does it every time.  You'll get used to the diatribe ... it won't bother you long if you've seen internet drama before! 


That having been said, all three of them are treasure troves of woodworking information.  The problem is that occasionally you have to pry it from EdStreet's cold dead heart, and other times (rarely that I've seen), he makes an extremely helpful post without even having to drug him up with Novocaine and start up the dental drill ... (could be laughing gas?)


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## Maverick KB (Jan 14, 2017)

It has changed a lot. That's why I didn't mind a break while I focused on starting up my second company. There are still some great folks here though.


Sent from my iPad using Penturners.org mobile app


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## GDGeorge (Jan 14, 2017)

I've seen this happen in a lot of places. There are enough here who just want to see the art of pen turning grow, thrive, and survive, though, that I won't sweat it. Just ignore the trolls. Or better yet, refute without becoming part of the problem. 

Best, 
Jerry
echo4golf


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## Scissortail Pens (Jan 14, 2017)

My intent in the other thread was not to prove someone wrong, nor was it to prove someone right, it was to give information. I've been blessed with this site and the people on it and the knowledge of all. I just got caught up in it and was trying to do the same and in doing so, got caught up in my own selfishness. I hope all will forgive me.


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## jttheclockman (Jan 14, 2017)

www.penturners.org/forum/f18/light-recent-events-56553/


Happy Anniversary:beer:


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## studioseven (Jan 15, 2017)

Cripes,
I've learned so much from this forum and I couldn't even begin to list the number of members that have helped me.  Sure now and then there is a wild rant but I think you would get those anywhere.  I'm sorry it has changed for you.  I do know there is still a lot of members out there wiling to share their knowledge and experience with the rest of us. Long live the IAP.

Seven


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## Scissortail Pens (Jan 15, 2017)

I don't regret apologizing for something that I didn't do in the first place. I really don't, that's just the way I am. But, since this isn't the first time you've done this and you made me feel bad for my words and thoughts, that weren't wrong in any way, shape or form. Shame on you dude. I've worried about that all evening long, as I have the innate ability to say the wrong thing. I guess the shame is on me for caring.


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## Edgar (Jan 15, 2017)

All forums change over time as new members join and become active & some older members become less active for whatever reasons. However, I still believe that the vast majority of our active members do their best every day to answer questions,  offer encouragement and be helpful in so many different ways. 

Sure there are sometimes threads that get a little strange at times and some that may not be of interest to you at all. I just simple exit out of the thread when things like that happen and don't even click on those that don't answer me - no one is forced to read or continue reading those threads.

Facebook groups are not immune from those things either. I belong to some pen turner FB groups also and I ignore lots of posts there, mostly because I'm not interested in the topic itself & sometimes because I get tired of where the discussion is going.

I hope you'll stick around & help masks IAP a better place by sharing your advice and expertise with others. We get about 200 new members a month and many are new turners who can use all the help we can give them.


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## PenPal (Jan 15, 2017)

Initially I took exception to Ed Street but have come to highly respect him. The best thing ever for Ed has been Toni of fame also for being meticulous. Both show brilliance. The recent purchase of The Blenheim proves he has a kind soul, never met a cat and dog lover without real empathy. 

The standard of in depth looking at penkits,manufacturers, products is ongoing, to have Eds close ups, comparisons they are to be respected.

Being sensitive to direct evidence scares most of us, be very sure Ed never raised the subject of magnets and chest implants but like ALL MEMBERS entitled to have his say.

Cutting down people is a pastime to avoid we in Australia call it the tall poppy syndrome. Some thing I have admired in the American people has been to make your way in business or any venture is to be admired.

I wish you all a better New Year full of beaut pens and friendship.

Peter.


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## Jdubfudge (Jan 15, 2017)

I'm new to this forum (and penturning) and I think it's a great place to learn and so far everyone has been pretty helpful. Since I have joined last month or so, I have gotten some free pen blanks and kits from people, free gift certificate from George's to buy so cool stuff I probably wouldn't have gotten, and some really solid advice. Next month I'll be participating in the PITH and the Bash and I'm really excited about it. All of this combined has really lit the flame for me to get into turning pens. So much so, that in November, I didn't even have a lathe. Now, I have a whole wall dedicated to turning with everything setup for ease of access. This included buying a bandsaw and putting in new shelves. I even spent a good part of an afternoon going through my wood scraps, from larger furniture projects, and cutting blanks. Needless to say, I now have plenty of koa, monkeypod and other woods to turn or share. 

I dont know what this forum was before, but I think it's pretty amazing. Not many places where you can talk directly to owners of the companies about stuff and not be in a sales environment. 

My last hobby I tried to get into was Ham radios. Talk about a rough crowd of angry dudes looking to flame someone. A simple question about a purchase would yield hatred responses about how people need to licensed and until some nube has a call sign, they'll even give a response. 

Compared to hamies, turners are angels. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## tomtedesco (Jan 15, 2017)

Other than death and taxes tell me what hasn't changed in this world.  I am older and liked certain things as they were before, but as we dinosaurs die off the next generation is putting their ideas and thinking into play.  I can grin and bear it or make my life miserable missing the "good old days".  Sometimes I just live with it and quit being a grumpy old man, they don't care and it doesn't help anyone.


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## Scollins (Jan 15, 2017)

jttheclockman said:


> www.penturners.org/forum/f18/light-recent-events-56553/
> 
> 
> Happy Anniversary:beer:



I'm a little befuddled as to the purpose of posting this particular link.


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## adirondak5 (Jan 15, 2017)

Scollins said:


> jttheclockman said:
> 
> 
> > www.penturners.org/forum/f18/light-recent-events-56553/
> ...



I think its called stirring the pot


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## jttheclockman (Jan 15, 2017)

Scollins said:


> jttheclockman said:
> 
> 
> > www.penturners.org/forum/f18/light-recent-events-56553/
> ...



Don't be befuddled. Just wanted to point out we have been here before and the ironic part is the anniversary date of his last quit. Some people just take things too serious when life is way too short. 

It is not called stirring the pot. My name was associated with this fiascal so just wanted to point out a fact. He is the one who started this. The people here are always trying to help. My intentions were to help. If they get misread I can not help that. I am not going to get into this because it is foolishness. The knowledge here and information here is tremendous. Many people take advantage of this. But as the old saying goes you just can not please everyone.  Have a great day. The sun is shining here and I was able to put 2 feet on the floor when I got up this morning.


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## TellicoTurning (Jan 15, 2017)

I probably shouldn't post on this thread, but am going to anyway... I've been here for a lot of years, have been in the world for a lot more years... I don't do pens much any more, but am still an avid wood turner....what I took from this forum was that we are a lot like a very large family.... families have disagreements, families have arguments, families get hurt feelings, but in the end they are still a family and if one needs something from the family, usually, in most cases, the family is there for them.
We do need each other.

I read a lot of the threads here looking for information, ideas, or just plain camaraderie.  If a thread veers off subject, or if someone objects to the thread, or if, or if, or if... I move on, sometimes I'll toss in a penny's thought, sometimes not.
Often I find the posts by those named above - unfairly I believe - to be amusing and interesting, but rarely offensive... that may just be me going with the flow.

This life, be a part of it, or move on... the loss is ours, but even more so, the loss is yours for dropping out.


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## adirondak5 (Jan 15, 2017)

jttheclockman said:


> Scollins said:
> 
> 
> > jttheclockman said:
> ...



Yes , I see it now , "Happy Anniversary" was very helpful indeed .

 The knowledge and information here is tremendous , on that there is no question , and yes , you can't please everybody . But stirring the pot is stirring the pot , no matter how you wrap it up


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## Jimbes (Jan 15, 2017)

*The more things change...*



TellicoTurning said:


> I probably shouldn't post on this thread, but am going to anyway... I've been here for a lot of years, have been in the world for a lot more years... I don't do pens much any more, but am still an avid wood turner....what I took from this forum was that we are a lot like a very large family.... families have disagreements, families have arguments, families get hurt feelings, but in the end they are still a family and if one needs something from the family, usually, in most cases, the family is there for them.
> We do need each other.
> 
> I read a lot of the threads here looking for information, ideas, or just plain camaraderie.  If a thread veers off subject, or if someone objects to the thread, or if, or if, or if... I move on, sometimes I'll toss in a penny's thought, sometimes not.
> ...



Well said. I've been using forums similar to this since the 1980s. Anyone here remember "newsgroups"? That was before the World Wide Web even existed. Guess what. It was the same then. Things grow and change. I recall back then we were so tight that one of our members got killed in a motorcycle accident. Another member invited EVERYONE to come to his house and stay for a night to pay our respects at the funeral. Guy told us his garage door would be open for anyone to come and go inside his house while he was at work. We did. I rode from NJ to Virginia and joined others while Don was at work. It was all great. Then, of course, the group got bigger. AOL started up and things grew; and things changed. But as has been well said by others, for the most part, things are pretty similar. I just joined this group yesterday and look forward to ALL the input from folks here. There's a huge wealth of information and willing people to help out. I hope the OP doesn't leave, as I'm sure he's got a lot to contribute.

Jim


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## maxwell_smart007 (Jan 15, 2017)

The mission and content of IAP is always here - it's the people that choose to visit that changes. People come and go: people move on...people come back

Heraiklitus' famous quote seems to fit here: "no man can cross the same river twice"...both the man and the river are constantly in a state of flux.  People make the forum what it is - if something isn't to your liking, be a positive role model and create change by leading through example.  

And for those newbies who may not be aware, there's an 'ignore' function built in to the software - if you get tired of hearing vitriol and venom from the same person, simply 'ignore' them in your user CP (see the buttons on the banner at the top).


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## SteveG (Jan 15, 2017)

Although I am not one of the "Old Guys" that have been in IAP since its early years, I have been present for eight or nine years (first lurking, then joined). There is no doubt that changes to IAP have happened as the years clicked by...some good , and some less so. The happy fact, in my view, is that great things have been and remain available to those who come here with a good attitude, particularly if you show up with a mature attitude. If there were not changes, the site would have become stagnant, and perhaps lost much of its value. sooooo....

      >>>>>>>:good::good::good:IAP:good::good::good:<<<<<<


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## Smitty37 (Jan 15, 2017)

Careful oh he who frequently makes very dogmatic statements in his posts....and at times responds to questions with the wrong answer...


Skie_M said:


> JT, EdStreet, and Smitty are like oil and water ... sometimes EdStreet just rubs some people the wrong way, and sometimes it seems he does it every time.  You'll get used to the diatribe ... it won't bother you long if you've seen internet drama before!
> 
> 
> That having been said, all three of them are treasure troves of woodworking information.  The problem is that occasionally you have to pry it from EdStreet's cold dead heart, and other times (rarely that I've seen), he makes an extremely helpful post without even having to drug him up with Novocaine and start up the dental drill ... (could be laughing gas?)


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## Smitty37 (Jan 15, 2017)

maxwell_smart007 said:


> The mission and content of IAP is always here - it's the people that choose to visit that changes. People come and go: people move on...people come back
> 
> Heraiklitus' famous quote seems to fit here: "no man can cross the same river twice"...both the man and the river are constantly in a state of flux.  People make the forum what it is - if something isn't to your liking, be a positive role model and create change by leading through example.
> 
> And for those newbies who may not be aware, there's an 'ignore' function built in to the software - if you get tired of hearing vitriol and venom from the same person, simply 'ignore' them in your user CP (see the buttons on the banner at the top).


 I would add to that - everyone who comes here can choose to follow or not follow a particular thread and if they have an interest in the original topic but lose interest (as frequently I do) they can then "unsubscribe"  that thread and not follow it any more.  Also, you don't have to read every word of every post either.


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## magpens (Jan 15, 2017)

May the spirit of IAP go on forever !!!!! . There is no place like it and I am sticking with it !!!


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## Terredax (Jan 15, 2017)

Posts like this one, often have me wonder why some people believe they are the only individual in the world, they are always correct, and everyone has to agree with them.

Others should never disagree, contradict, or have an opinion. 

It's not just on the internet, it's in all aspects of life. 
People need to accept that they are only one of 7.5 billion people.
Good luck convincing them that you are the most important one, of all of them.


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## tom wood (Jan 15, 2017)

Great comment by Steve G. Especially "mature attitude".


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## Smitty37 (Jan 15, 2017)

Terredax said:


> Posts like this one, often have me wonder why some people believe they are the only individual in the world, they are always correct, and everyone has to agree with them.
> 
> Others should never disagree, contradict, or have an opinion.
> 
> ...


Because I am always correct.:biggrin:


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## jttheclockman (Jan 15, 2017)

Smitty37 said:


> Terredax said:
> 
> 
> > Posts like this one, often have me wonder why some people believe they are the only individual in the world, they are always correct, and everyone has to agree with them.
> ...



 No!!!!:biggrin: I am always correct:biggrin::biggrin: I guess we beat this horse to death:beat-up:


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## Maverick KB (Jan 15, 2017)

jttheclockman said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > Terredax said:
> ...





You can both only be correct until I have a different idea. [emoji13]


Sent from my iPhone using Penturners.org mobile app


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## leehljp (Jan 15, 2017)

I remember the good information from Eagle and even he could sometimes irritate people here. We have had some doozies here and very smart doozies too. I would love to see how the marbles roll and bounce around in their brains! 

Since I have been on bulletin boards long before the internet, I watched the evolution of many bulletin boards and eventually forums. 

1. It (bulletin board/forum) gets started; there are a few fellows alway jockeying for the top dog in attention.
2. There are the main folks that try to help the new comers.
3. A few new comers rise through the ranks.
4. More new comers;
5. Explanations abound to new comers; disagreements from some original members in the know.
6. More new comers and need for explanations.
7. Old timers get tired of re-stating the old stuff and tell new comers to do a search for the answer.
8. Some Old timers feel this is their forum. (I got this lesson from an automotive forum. :wink: )
9. A few helpful members write up some facts, explanations, instructions and general information that has been garnered from experience over the past X years and post them in special forums.
10. Newbies are sent to the FACTS section and told to do a search. 
11. More newbies come and inundate the forum with questions that have been answered 100 times;
12. One or two or three or four old timers figure it is time to leave! They can't contain the newbies! :biggrin:
13. The saga continues in a circle! :biggrin:

Personally, I think the one and two years experienced folks, in general, are the best at answering newbie questions because they were just there!

I learn a lot from the newbies too. I have twice been inundated with work (when I was in Japan) and dropped out of IAP just before leaving my work over there.  Shortly after I came back to the USA, I got more involved in work here (USA) AFTER retirement that I could have imagined. I dropped out of IAP again just due to work load. AFTER coming back to the forum a few months ago, I was blown away at some of the advancements, and lots of new ideas from new folks here too. :good:

My advice to old timers and I take this advice too: when I get tired of HELPING people, back up let some of the younger or newer folks with recent experience do the explaining. It is not MY forum; it is not YOUR forum, it is OUR forum (well Jeff's to be exact). Share the work and let others do some of the work. I have held back on many occasions just to let some of the newer users share their experiences. If I see a problem developing, I will add a comment in. If I see myself feeling aggravated because someone doesn't take my advice, I let it go. I have too few years left to let it bother me.

SEARCHES: There is nothing more discouraging than hearing the words "GO do a search". Yep, some people are lazy. But some people don't use the right word and search and search and don't get anything. It is frustrating. My daughter can search and find anything. I learned binary back in the early '60s, but I rarely use the correct word for searches. I know this is frustrating for others too. Most FORUMS are family of users. Nothing more discouraging than being kept out of the group by being sent to the library or search without some interactive/helpful instructions.

This is a FORUM for SUPPORT and interaction, not something to keep people down or out until they have established themselves as my equal or better. Most forums and I see this one as here to help the community of pen turners, grow the community and expand the horizons in pen turning.  A rarely expressed Chinese expression: "Out of blue comes deep blue" = The student is better than the teacher! I enjoy seeing the newer bunch expanding pen turning ideas and technology well beyond what it was when I started. But I know that most of it was built upon what was started with those here before me! Thanks IAP. Thanks Jeff!

(getting off my toad stool. :wink: )


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## jeff (Jan 15, 2017)

OK, Justin, good luck and thanks for your participation. The door is always open if you care to visit. 

In the first sentence of your post, you say, "So I know I'll get flamed for this and that's ok."  

It's not that your personal choice to leave annoys people, it's that you feel the need to list everything that's wrong with us on your way out the door. What's your point in doing that? Why not just slip quietly away into the ether? Were you trying to help us improve our community by opining how unhelpful and elitist and sarcastic we are?  It comes across that you just want to get in a few jabs on your way out. 

Every large community has people who are very happy with it, and people who are dissatisfied with it, and lots in between. While I'd like to, it's not feasible to make everyone happy all the time. In this case the best I can do is apologize that we haven't met your expectations.


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## stonepecker (Jan 15, 2017)

jeff said:


> OK, Justin, good luck and thanks for your participation. The door is always open if you care to visit.
> 
> In the first sentence of your post, you say, "So I know I'll get flamed for this and that's ok."
> 
> ...


 


_Jeff.......Stop it!_
_This person is beyond understanding what a membership in the IAP means.  You, and nobody else, owes someone like this any apology of anykind._
_It took me a while to understand that no matter what I say that some people are beyond listening.  That is why I have stayed out of this posting till now._
__ 
_Jeff, without you and the and the rest of the great people that run the IAP.......we would be lost.  If someone wants to make a change or believes he knows better.......let them step up and run things awhile.  My opinion.  Not worth more then what everyone paid for it._
__ 
_Stonepecker (Wayne)_


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## edstreet (Jan 15, 2017)

Egads .... never expected someone to up and quit over some hard questioning about a silly topic like magnets. 

I do ask those hard questions and I do get people to think. It comes with my job and I am extremely good at it.  I do tend not to sugar coat things and can appear harsh at times but I have a very large empathy and I have a very intense passion as well. It does take some getting use to by many.  

In the magnet thread I urge everyone to reread what I said and take no assumptions and not read into it. There you will find me asking the hard questions that need to be ask and ask often. Yes information and technology changes and changes often and those who do not change with it find themselves left in the cold.


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## Rockytime (Jan 15, 2017)

Holy Smokes! I watch UFC, Belator mixed marshal arts and boxing. I don't mind a good squabble. I just sit back, read and smile. Everything is good!


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## robutacion (Jan 16, 2017)

Well, I have been reading/following this thread and I hesitated in making any comments more than once, I've though, is not worth it but, and the more I read and consider the issue, I had to say something...!

Firstly, I have no idea of the reason/posts/threads/people/members that upset the OP that made him express in such way and to be quite frank, I don't think it matter that much, any experience/older active member have had seen this exact reaction/behaviour before so, should not come as a surprise.

I spend a considerable amount of my time trying to welcome new members and assist any members with any issues they may have that are within my knowledge range and while some "adore" me some hate my guts and why..? because something I said or done that didn't go well with them and as Jeff very rightly said, we can never please everybody but I try, anyway...!:biggrin:

If we are having a bad day and someone that we don't particular like/understand/appreciate makes his/hers presence in a web forum we normally follow/visit, it doesn't take long for the "kettle to boil over" and things are then said that will create a number of reactions that will upset a number of members and not always the intended person(s), creating a chain reaction of less "pleasent" posts that will even more members often because, they become involved in the conversation/discussion half way and as a result, will often add something that has nothing to do with the OP issue,

Now, it is true that IAP has evolved and things are not as they were before HOWEVER, IAP has grown as we all have, and will continue to grow well past many of our older members existence and that is where is important (in my view) that we are able to "filter" the less important stuff and continue to open the doors to those in the future that are probably, not yet born.

The basic spirit of IAP since I have been part of it and I'm sure, it was like that much before of my presence/membership, has been of sharing and guidance, more recently, we all seemed to have add "pay it forwards" as another of IAP's channels/directions/fulfilments or, we have all learnt to implement it at a more regular basis and that has been most appreciated by the vast majority.

In resume, is most unfair to those like myself that work hard to make this place as friendly, helpful and encouraging as possible, a bad day or a disagreement with someone of something is no excuse to put the forum/group down, possibly giving an uneasy feeling to the new members  as they are trying to get their footing in the group.

So, as far as I'm concerned, I'm sorry but I don't agree with your statement...!

Cheers
George


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## edicehouse (Jan 16, 2017)

I believe the kids now a days would say Bye Felicia.


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## jleiwig (Jan 16, 2017)

jeff said:


> OK, Justin, good luck and thanks for your participation. The door is always open if you care to visit.
> 
> In the first sentence of your post, you say, "So I know I'll get flamed for this and that's ok."
> 
> ...



I've had a ton of emails and PMs from people who don't post much but who agree with me, but I was still going to let this thread die along with my participation in this forum. I had said my piece. Your response changed that.

Those that I would akin to the southern end of a northbound donkey have shown themselves in this thread already and that's fine...belittling is an obvious joy for them and I'm a big boy and it doesn't bother me. I had already blocked most of them in the first place.  

John did a great job digging up my old post where I left for 6 years previously. The timing isn't coincidence between the two.  I use the beginning of every year to look at where I'm at as a person and evaluate my choices and eliminate things or people who aren't helping me be a better person or aren't trying to better themselves. That time previously, I was the one that I felt was toxic to this forum, so I removed myself.  

This time it's the opposite. Since Skie associated John with my post even though I chose not to name names we'll use him as a perfect example of what I was stating again.  Go back through his posts for the past 18 months and find more than 10% that are helpful...I dare you...I won't wait though because you aren't gonna find it...doesn't exist I checked. He's full of snarky comments and opinions but very little actual help. 

He and his ilk are a pox on the forum and my hope with bringing it to light was that people would take a moment to evaluate themselves if they were truly being helpful. If they didn't then maybe the moderation or the owner might at least tell them to tone it down a bit. I see I was wrong in that regard. Now I know why people emailed and PM'd me about it instead of posting in this thread.

My point was really more about this forum than it was about me regardless of what you may think. I exist fine with or without this forum.  The moderation of this forum and allowing these things to go on really drags the whole forum down. This forum used to be super helpful and people felt welcome. You yourself recently posted about donations being down this year for the bash...do you really attribute that to anything other than the decline in the attitudes and posting going on? Yours included.

Your "head moderator" MesquiteMan is more active in the Facebook groups that I frequent more so than I've seen he is here.  So are a lot of the vendors that deal with pens and pen supplies. The people that took over for Roy at Classic Nib are far more active on Facebook. So is El Mostro, and many others that used to frequent their wares here.  They are putting their time and effort and money where it's useful...and that place isn't IAP unfortunately. That is why your numbers for the bash are down....but I'm guessing you won't admit that to yourselves judging by the responses to this thread.

I hate to see what this place has become, but if you all were truly honest and introspective with yourselves instead of just jumping on the bashing you might see what I see. At least that's my hope so that the IAP can again become what it once was.  

Take care all.  I do wish you well regardless of what you think.


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## jttheclockman (Jan 16, 2017)

Justin

You are one lost soul. Comparing this site to FB is an actual proof of that statement. As far as me not being helpful, it is one's man opinion. I too get plenty of messages to contradict your words. People have tried to be helpful to you but you lock them out because they were not using the words you wanted to hear. You can twist and turn anyone's words around any way you see fit to meet the agenda in your head. 

I do wish you all the best and hope you find peace and solace in your little world. I also hope you find all the tools you need to keep this hobby going for yourself. In spite of all your regrets here I am sure you did learn a few things and just maybe I played a little role in there, good or bad. 

I sure hope you do not stoop to the low levels of taking this to FB and bad mouthing people or this site. This site may not be for everyone but it is still one of the best sites for all things pens and more. Any place you go in life you will run into people that do not measure up to your high standards and for that as soon as you realize it, it will be a help to you. 

Good luck.


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## jeff (Jan 16, 2017)

I'm going to lock this thread. Not because I don't want dissenting opinions, but because it has run its course. I've invited Justin to continue this discussion with me directly. I am always interested in constructive criticism if it leads to improvement, and I invite anyone else who would like to weigh in on either side of this to contact me directly.


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