# Makes You Wonder



## IPD_Mr (Oct 14, 2011)

While looking at MSNBC at lunch, I found these two news headlines, one above the other as you see them here at the top of the page.  

*New normal: Stagnant wages until 2021*


*CEO pay rises 28 percent — in one year*


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## Bobalu (Oct 14, 2011)

Makes me want to be a CEO more than a "New normal".

BTW-- what exactly does a "New normal" do for a living?


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## bobjackson (Oct 14, 2011)

With no end in sight. Thank God I'm retired and have a good shop to make pens.


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## BlackPearl (Oct 14, 2011)

Bobalu said:


> BTW-- what exactly does a "New normal" do for a living?



A LOT more for the same money, and less benefits all the while being told "Just be happy you still have a job."


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## moke (Oct 14, 2011)

I'm a CEO/President of a Corp--and I have no plans of a salary increase---of course we only have three employees!!!  Does that count?


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## BlackPearl (Oct 14, 2011)

moke said:


> I'm a CEO/President of a Corp--and I have no plans of a salary increase---of course we only have three employees!!!  Does that count?



So when you figure all the CEO's like you; How big were the raises for some to still average out at 28%?


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## Constant Laubscher (Oct 14, 2011)

Don't complain do something about it! 
I don't say it in a bad way but this is a great country with many opportunities, I wish I had more time in a day to explore some of them.

I work for myself since 1991.
It is hard to make that step to be on your own but it is all worth it.
And please don't tell me you can't, this is the USA and you CAN!

I have signed both sides of pay checks. Between 1991 -2002 I employed 21 people full time and made the decision to immigrate to the US I sold the buildings that I owned and closed the business.
In May 2003 I started working here for a small company just for commission and by the end of 2004 I bought part of the company( most of the equipment ) and started my Owen business. Since then I have stared two more Businesses and closed one the rest are still doing fine.
I started with Zero money when I came to the US and the money from the sale of my business in SA was put directly into my house here.

To get back to "You CAN work for yourself" The best is to get something going while the going is good or you have a job and work relentless until you reach that goal of being on your own and in control of your own destiny.   

It would not always be easy but you will be rewarded with success.


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## IPD_Mr (Oct 14, 2011)

I think what I find most disturbing, is a public held company paying a CEO or FCFO millions in salary as well as millions in stock options.  The company does not pay dividends.  These kind of people are sucking companies dry.  HP paid about 12 million just to get rid of a bad CEO.

What I really don't get is people that invest in XYZ Co.  The company is physically worth 250 million.  The stock value is 900 million.  The CEO gets paid 20 mill a year plus stock options.  The company operated in the red, but laid off 200 workers to get the black ink going.  The CEO and CFO each get a $5 mill bonus.  No dividends are paid to the share holders, but because of the great success the stock goes up 25%.  I just don't understand why people don't see something wrong with this.


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## BlackPearl (Oct 14, 2011)

Who buys the stock?

Joe blow investor, or the bank that loans the money to allow the machinations that make the red ink go away?

They get more profit from the loan, they don't have to make money from the stock.


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## GoodTurns (Oct 14, 2011)

IPD_Mr said:


> The company is physically worth 250 million.



Once upon a time, stock prices reflected the actual value of a company or it's proven return, today, stock "investing" is little better (often worse) than casino payouts!  I am an accountant by trade, and personally cannot believe the numbers that companies are allowed to post as their "earnings"  (for a touch of interesting reading, see recent activity re GROUPON's handling of "revenue" while planning their IPO).  Companies that are LOSING money show wonderful "earnings", because they can work the rules to not show pesky little things like interest cost, goodwill, taxes and true depreciation.  People see "EARNINGS", think it means PROFIT and jump on the bandwagon, pushing up demand for the stock.  Top execs support this because many of them have compensation packages either tied to stock performance or actual options that jump with the stock.  Boards of Directors support and overcompensate top execs that get these results because they are usually stockholders!

[rant mode, off]

It goes back to the whole perception issue... it's more important how it looks like you are doing than how you are actually doing!...Billy Crystal/SNL ring any bells?


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## Haynie (Oct 14, 2011)

I don't wonder, I am not surprised, and we all know the rich get richer.


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## xxShadowxx (Oct 14, 2011)

Employees are rungs on the ladder of success. Don't hesitate to step on them.

http://www.sjtrek.com/trek/rules/ :biggrin:


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## Haynie (Oct 14, 2011)

Yer geek's hangin out.
:biggrin:


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## EBorraga (Oct 14, 2011)

Pretty interesting topic, as I had a similar talk with my boss yesterday.
I'm not a CEO, but i'm in a position that most people never obtain for my company. We're a Fortune 300 company, that have had an enormous amount of profit's over the last 5 years. When I started working for them 8 years ago our stock was $34.00 a share. As of today we're up over $318.00 a share. I actually have more shares of stock than 3 of our board members. I'm not a believer in the rich get richer, and the poor get poorer. I agree that a 28% raise is ludacris, but what do you consider a good raise. I gave everyone that works under me a 9% raise this year. I received a 6% raise. I also received a very healthy bonus, that I gave all 16 of my workers a piece of. I was the only person to do this. A few of my workers were very upset they didn't get more. Company wide the average raise was 3%. We can all complain about wages, and all kinds of other stuff. But in my mind, there is very little we can do to change this. Just my .02 though. The normal lower middle class citizen.


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## Frank Nemke sr (Oct 14, 2011)

think of a CEO as that quarterback that signs a 100mil , 5 year contract.  if there where alot more of them , they wouldn't be worth so much


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## Frank Nemke sr (Oct 14, 2011)

*ladders*



xxShadowxx said:


> Employees are rungs on the ladder of success. Don't hesitate to step on them.
> 
> http://www.sjtrek.com/trek/rules/ :biggrin:


 Alot of employes are only there to be stepped on, and they get stepped on by there fellow employes that are passing them up. Union workers cheer ( IT'S NOT MY YOB MAN )   My brother -in-law taught me that one. Steamfitters union


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## IPD_Mr (Oct 14, 2011)

Frank Nemke sr. said:


> think of a CEO as that quarterback that signs a 100mil , 5 year contract. if there where alot more of them , they wouldn't be worth so much


 
So what you are saying is the CEO should get paid a crazy amount of money regardless of the company's performance because he is the only CEO in the company?  



EBorraga said:


> Pretty interesting topic, as I had a similar talk with my boss yesterday.
> I'm not a CEO, but i'm in a position that most people never obtain for my company. We're a Fortune 300 company, that have had an enormous amount of profit's over the last 5 years. When I started working for them 8 years ago our stock was $34.00 a share. As of today we're up over $318.00 a share. I actually have more shares of stock than 3 of our board members. I'm not a believer in the rich get richer, and the poor get poorer. I agree that a 28% raise is ludacris, but what do you consider a good raise. I gave everyone that works under me a 9% raise this year. I received a 6% raise. I also received a very healthy bonus, that I gave all 16 of my workers a piece of. I was the only person to do this. *A few of my workers were very upset they didn't get more.* Company wide the average raise was 3%. We can all complain about wages, and all kinds of other stuff. But in my mind, there is very little we can do to change this. Just my .02 though. The normal lower middle class citizen.


 
Ernie it sounds like you have a couple of employees that don't deal with reality, or (and this is probably more correct) they are use to your generosity and take full advantage of it.
 
There  are exceptions to the norm in all cases.  If a company is doing well, then I see no problem with a realistic reward for those directly responsible.  I do have an issue with companies that lower the work force, raise the work load for those remaining employees and sell off company assets to make a dismal year look like something it is not.  I am by no means saying everyone should be paid the same either.  The disparity between the average employee and the top dogs has just grown at a nauseating pace.


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## EBorraga (Oct 14, 2011)

I agree with you Mike. I try to be generous, as the company could probably care less. That's why i've got only one person that's been there longer than a year. I work some absolutely crazy hours. I stay up alot at night wondering if it's worth it in the long run. They'd have somebody in my shoes within a week if I was gone. Gotta love corporate america. But in my customers eye's, i'm their #1 Muy Loco Amigo!!!


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## Monolith (Oct 15, 2011)

EBorraga said:


> Pretty interesting topic, as I had a similar talk with my boss yesterday.
> I'm not a CEO, but i'm in a position that most people never obtain for my company. We're a Fortune 300 company, that have had an enormous amount of profit's over the last 5 years. When I started working for them 8 years ago our stock was $34.00 a share. As of today we're up over $318.00 a share. I actually have more shares of stock than 3 of our board members. I'm not a believer in the rich get richer, and the poor get poorer. I agree that a 28% raise is ludacris, but what do you consider a good raise. I gave everyone that works under me a 9% raise this year. I received a 6% raise. I also received a very healthy bonus, that I gave all 16 of my workers a piece of. I was the only person to do this. A few of my workers were very upset they didn't get more. Company wide the average raise was 3%. We can all complain about wages, and all kinds of other stuff. But in my mind, there is very little we can do to change this. Just my .02 though. The normal lower middle class citizen.




Damn, wish I bought some of that stock!


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## JimB (Oct 15, 2011)

Like many things the media only talks about the situations that will get them ratings and stir  up the masses. Although there may be some over paid CEO's out there, there are also thousands and thousands of CEO's and other executives we don't hear about. They worked hard to get where they are and continue to work hard to keep their positions, do the best for the company, shareholders and employees.


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## Bobalu (Oct 15, 2011)

IPD_Mr said:


> While looking at MSNBC at lunch, I found these two news headlines, one above the other as you see them here at the top of the page.
> 
> *New normal: Stagnant wages until 2021*
> 
> ...


 

I believe those headlines came directly from this article from the Huffington Post. 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/06/15/executive-pay-soars-worker-pay-stagnates_n_877519.html

The headline on MSNBC gives you little information, so the immediate perception is that is the average pay increase of all US CEO's is 28%. The article states that it was the average increase of CEO's in S&P 500 companies. I'm not supporting such large increases, just pointing out that percentages can be deceiving unless you know what they are based on.


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## 76winger (Oct 15, 2011)

IPD_Mr said:


> While looking at MSNBC at lunch, I found these two news headlines, one above the other as you see them here at the top of the page.
> 
> *New normal: Stagnant wages until 2021*
> 
> ...




#1 - Not surprising, although I hope the economy and wages change a little SOONER than that!

#2 - I'm OK with that so long as they grew their company by a least that percentage and preferably much more. Otherwise they didn't earn (and thus don't deserve) it.


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## drgoretex (Oct 15, 2011)

Interesting thread.  I guess things are the same all over.  In our Health Authority, we are seeing staff continuing with only the barest of increases, while their positions, are being cut brutally, leaving those remaining with enormous burdens to shoulder - for the same pay and less benefits.

Hmm....I am president of my own company, but have to shoulder the burdern of getting my one slack-a$$ lazy employee to work harder.  Unfortunately, that one employee is me, and I hate my boss.  At least I get to sleep with his wife. :biggrin:

Ken


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## Haynie (Oct 15, 2011)

drgoretex said:


> Interesting thread.  I guess things are the same all over.  In our Health Authority, we are seeing staff continuing with only the barest of increases, while their positions, are being cut brutally, leaving those remaining with enormous burdens to shoulder - for the same pay and less benefits.
> 
> Hmm....I am president of my own company, but have to shoulder the burdern of getting my one slack-a$$ lazy employee to work harder.  Unfortunately, that one employee is me, and I hate my boss.  At least I get to sleep with his wife. :biggrin:
> 
> Ken




I don't sleep with the bosses wife, as my wife is the boss.  So, I happily tell people one of my jobs is secure because I am sleeping with the boss.  I jokingly said that a little dirtier once, she heard me, and I found that my work load increased and we have a damned uncomfortable couch. :tongue:


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## Smitty37 (Oct 15, 2011)

*hmmmm*

How many of you think you could be CEO of a major company?  

How many of you would take the job if it was offered to you?

Consider this - few CEO's were born to the position.  Most were hired just like all of us and found a way to reach the top. 

Does luck play a role - sure it does but so does their hard work.  Are there some that fail - sure there are.  But more succeed.

If it is worth millions to have a baseball player throw a baseball 90 miles an hour with no other responsibility than to throw it over the plate for 6 innings every 4th or 5th day - how much more is it worth to have responsibility for managing all the rest that goes into our being able to watch baseball?  Ditto for football quarterbacks.


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## maxwell_smart007 (Oct 15, 2011)

Smitty37 said:


> How many of you think you could be CEO of a major company?
> 
> How many of you would take the job if it was offered to you?



Sure, I think I could handle it...and I'll take it if anyone wants to offer it!  I can handle being responsible for the education of 150 students a year (75 or so each term)...how much harder could managing a company be? :biggrin: 

Delegation and hiring well is the key, I'd wager....


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## Smitty37 (Oct 15, 2011)

*A lot*



maxwell_smart007 said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > How many of you think you could be CEO of a major company?
> ...


 I've never heard of an educator yet successfully making that transition.  Not to down play the role of educators (two of my daughters are educators) the problem is educators are not usually held responsible - at least in the USA it is almost impossible to fire a teacher just for not teaching well.  Or anything else that is not immoral behavior with students or stealing or violence.


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## maxwell_smart007 (Oct 15, 2011)

Smitty37 said:


> at least in the USA it is almost impossible to fire a teacher just for not teaching well.



I think up here there are teaching reviews every 5 years for the most part ...frequent failures leads to potential termination in some boards


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## Smitty37 (Oct 15, 2011)

*Tenure*



maxwell_smart007 said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > at least in the USA it is almost impossible to fire a teacher just for not teaching well.
> ...


 
Both of my daughters are principals - one high school and one middle school - and both complain about how hard it is to get rid of incompetent teachers once they have gained tenure.  

The teachers are unionized so their pay increases are negotiated and apply to both good and bad teachers, their benefits are either legislated or negotiated, their pensions are essentially legislated with some negotiation with respect to contributions.  While they are said to be employees of the particular school district they are in reality government employees.  Diciplinary actions are very closely legislated as to what can be done and for what reasons.


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## Rick P (Oct 15, 2011)

EBorraga said:


> Pretty interesting topic, as I had a similar talk with my boss yesterday.
> I'm not a CEO, but i'm in a position that most people never obtain for my company. We're a Fortune 300 company, that have had an enormous amount of profit's over the last 5 years. When I started working for them 8 years ago our stock was $34.00 a share. As of today we're up over $318.00 a share. I actually have more shares of stock than 3 of our board members. I'm not a believer in the rich get richer, and the poor get poorer. I agree that a 28% raise is ludacris, but what do you consider a good raise. I gave everyone that works under me a 9% raise this year. I received a 6% raise. I also received a very healthy bonus, that I gave all 16 of my workers a piece of. I was the only person to do this. A few of my workers were very upset they didn't get more. Company wide the average raise was 3%. We can all complain about wages, and all kinds of other stuff. But in my mind, there is very little we can do to change this. Just my .02 though. The normal lower middle class citizen.


 
If you own more stock than 3 of the board members and that stock incressed 100 fold, have 16 folks working under you and recieved a 6% raise you are DEFINATELY NOT lower middle class!!! The Lower middle class is decieding between heating oil and fuel for there truck so they can get to the job that keeps them one paycheck from being homeless!!!


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## Smitty37 (Oct 15, 2011)

*That is funny*



Rick P said:


> EBorraga said:
> 
> 
> > Pretty interesting topic, as I had a similar talk with my boss yesterday.
> ...


 
That is a 9 fold increase not 100 fold.  Corporations might have a requirement that board members hold stock and might not. Even a company as large as IBM usually had at least one outside director who owned very little stock. I recall on director who was on the board for years who owned only 10 shares (a lot less than I owned). Companies tend to want employees who also serve as directors to receive at least part of their compensation in stock - they want them to have a vested interest in how well the company does. On the other hand, outside directors may or may not be major shareholders, they are paid a fee (probably more than most employees get in salary) and expenses. The company wants some views untainted by their own economic well being on things as well.


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## Rick P (Oct 15, 2011)

Smitty37 said:


> How many of you think you could be CEO of a major company?
> 
> _You bet your arse I could! And not at a $475:$1 ratio to the companies lowest paid employee!_
> 
> ...


 
Nice try but I am not buying it.


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## Rick P (Oct 15, 2011)

Smitty37 You are correct it's a 9-10 fold increase sorry over active fingers and one to many 0's........doesn't change a thing! The post dose not reflect a person in the lower middle class.

You are also correct about stocks in fact it was through smart use of the stocks that he had acquired through his employer that my father was able to retire early..........the only man I know who didn't loose money when the poo hit the fan!


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## Smitty37 (Oct 15, 2011)

*Well maybe*



Rick P said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > How many of you think you could be CEO of a major company?
> ...


   Do you have any management experience at all?  I'm guessing not.


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## Rick P (Oct 15, 2011)

Lead formen for carpentry at Snyder and sons construction, charge Nurse in the ICU for 2 different hospitals and self employed since 2000. Your not the only on who has worked hard in his life!


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## Rick P (Oct 15, 2011)

Started working as a farm hand at age 12, thats in addition to my own chores on a dairy farm. From the age of 12 to 18 my day started at 4am and ended anywhere between 7pm to 10 pm. Worked 10 hour days 6 days a week in construction and 12 hour days 4-5 days a week as a RN.......a 40 hour work week would have been a vacation for most of my life.


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## Smitty37 (Oct 15, 2011)

*Careful*



Rick P said:


> Lead formen for carpentry at Snyder and sons construction, charge Nurse in the ICU for 2 different hospitals and self employed since 2000. Your not the only on who has worked hard in his life!


  I never said that I worked hard (actually I didn't work all that hard in a physical sense) or that you didn't.  

I just asked if you had management experience.  

Most people with management experience *know* that they can't just walk in and replace the CEO.  

There is a lot more to running a big company than running small business - I've run a small business on the side for 30 years.  It does not equip me to be the CEO of IBM.


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## IPD_Mr (Oct 15, 2011)

Folks I did not start this thread to create an argument topic. 

The VERY simple point I was seeing, is if the company is doing so poorly they cannot reward their workers for the job they are doing, how is it that they can justify ANY increase of wage for the CEO's let alone an average of 28% across the board. These people are pillaging the companies and they can do so because they are in a position of power.

More than anything I felt the articles were a tool of education not a tool of bickering. It is no wonder that Leno is able to find the people that he does in his J-Walking interviews. Welcome to the Battle of Bull Winkle not Bull Run.


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## Rick P (Oct 15, 2011)

Careful? Are you implying I am a lier or telling me what to do?

You didn't ask if I could walk in and replace anyone you asked if I thought I could do a CEO's job. A CEO couldn't do a layout for a 20 foot wall section without some training but he could do it...... same holds for myself in his job.


Now a question for you.......why do I have to give you a resume and put up with your innuendos in order to gain the respect any human being deserves?


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## maxwell_smart007 (Oct 15, 2011)

It's like herding cats around here sometimes - stop attacking each other over this trivial crap!  

I don't want to have to lock another thread because it's going down the tubes.  Please remain civil, and maybe go discuss a pen or two in another thread! 

Andrew
assistant moderator


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## Rick P (Oct 15, 2011)

IPD_Mr said:


> Folks I did not start this thread to create an argument topic.
> 
> The VERY simple point I was seeing, is if the company is doing so poorly they cannot reward their workers for the job they are doing, how is it that they can justify ANY increase of wage for the CEO's let alone an average of 28% across the board. These people are pillaging the companies and they can do so because they are in a position of power.
> 
> More than anything I felt the articles were a tool of education not a tool of bickering. It is no wonder that Leno is able to find the people that he does in his J-Walking interviews. Welcome to the Battle of Bull Winkle not Bull Run.


 
I get your point completely............would you mind explaining your intent in the last paragraph? Feeling a bit insulted for standing up for my own opinions, for in fact agreeing with you.


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## Rick P (Oct 15, 2011)

maxwell_smart007 said:


> It's like herding cats around here sometimes - stop attacking each other over this trivial crap!
> 
> I don't want to have to lock another thread because it's going down the tubes. Please remain civil, and maybe go discuss a pen or two in another thread!
> 
> ...


 
Don't bother locking it, if giving an opinion and standing up for myself are going to be misconstrued as attacks there are far better places for me to voice my opinions. I'll happily go else where for discussions with deeper meaning than a joke or pens. 

Have a nice day.


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## maxwell_smart007 (Oct 15, 2011)

> Don't bother locking it, if giving an opinion and standing up for myself are going to be misconstrued as attacks there are far better places for me to voice my opinions. I'll happily go else where for discussions with deeper meaning than a joke or pens.
> 
> Have a nice day.



Yes, there are many better places for discussing politics, current events, religion, etc...
This remains the best community for penturners to hang out and talk about pens and what's important to them....but you're right - arguments and debates are best done elsewhere...

The animosity and rancour that accompany such heavy debates is not a welcome addition to the forum, and does no more than create divisions among the membership... 

Andrew
assistant moderator


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## Smitty37 (Oct 15, 2011)

*neither*



Rick P said:


> Careful? Are you implying I am a lier or telling me what to do? - Neither.
> 
> You didn't ask if I could walk in and replace anyone you asked if I thought I could do a CEO's job. A CEO couldn't do a layout for a 20 foot wall section without some training but he could do it...... same holds for myself in his job.  The discussion is about CEOs compensated in the millions per year.  That implies a pretty big company. It takes more than just "some" training.
> Now a question for you.......why do I have to give you a resume and put up with your innuendos in order to gain the respect any human being deserves?


 You don't have to give me a resume - I didn't ask for one - and there were no innuendos.  And I have not shown you any lack of respect whatsoever.  If you think you see any, it is in your mind not my words.


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## Rick P (Oct 15, 2011)

Respectfully

You asked if I had worked management instead of taking me at my word. (resume)

You headed one quote with "That's funny" over a typo and another with "Careful" followed with "most who have worked in management know" With Know highlighted.......if not, "your dumb or a lier" what did that mean? (I found it very insulting)

"The discussion is about CEOs compensated in the millions per year. That implies a pretty big company. It takes more than just "some" training."
 
Your honestly telling me that implying I am such a moron that I dont see this is respectful? Again he didn't walk into his job so neither could I but thats not what you asked you asked if I thought I could do his job. Given the opportunities he had yes, I firmly think I could.

Yep Momma always said when you disagree with someone call them crazy it's the polite thing to do. "If you think you see any, it is in your mind not my words."

Now I am done with this! 


My apologies to the group if my response leaves Andrew with no choice other than locking the thread. Unfortunate since it is a valid topic of discussion.


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## jeff (Oct 15, 2011)

Discussing topics other than penturning certainly does strengthen our community. That's why we have the Casual Conversation forum. These sort of deep discussions often go off into the weeds because we don't have the benefit of in-person interaction. Without the benefit of tone-of-voice and facial expression and gestures, what people write doesn't come across the way they intended. 

I wish I could motivate people who end up at odds in these sort of threads to at least chat on the phone. Try it sometime. I've started doing it a bit more.


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## NewLondon88 (Oct 15, 2011)

jeff said:


> I wish I could motivate people who end up at odds in these sort of threads to at least chat on the phone. Try it sometime. I've started doing it a bit more.




Man.. dat be old school, yo!


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## Smitty37 (Oct 15, 2011)

*PM*



jeff said:


> Discussing topics other than penturning certainly does strengthen our community. That's why we have the Casual Conversation forum. These sort of deep discussions often go off into the weeds because we don't have the benefit of in-person interaction. Without the benefit of tone-of-voice and facial expression and gestures, what people write doesn't come across the way they intended.
> 
> I wish I could motivate people who end up at odds in these sort of threads to at least chat on the phone. Try it sometime. I've started doing it a bit more.


 
I didn't consider myself at odds Jeff.  He seemed upset but I sure wasn't.  I did respond to the above with a private message.


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## xxShadowxx (Oct 16, 2011)

jeff said:


> I wish I could motivate people who end up at odds in these sort of threads to at least chat on the phone. Try it sometime. I've started doing it a bit more.



whats a phone?


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