# Successful kitless Failure (long)



## RAdams (Mar 17, 2010)

After looking at some AMAZING pens on the site earlier today, i decided to try my first kitless. 

It was a series of mistakes that led to the eventual failure of the project. But what a success it was. 

I learned an incredible amount in trying to do this pen. From cutting the blank too short for a proper body thinking i could make the nib section out of the same blank, to realizing if you use a 1/4" drill bit to tap 1/4X20 threads, you have made a mistake. I actually got the body finished, threaded inside for the section, and outside for the cap. I test fit an ink cartridge and almost cried. the cartridge would not go in. I drilled the hole out one size bit up and tried to tap it again. The threaded section cracked. 

I think i should have used a bit larger drill bit to re-tap the inside. Maybe put some tape on the outside threads to give it a bit more strength. 

After i cracked the threaded section of the body, i pretty much gave up on this one and will start over. I did go ahead and drill and tap what would have been the lid just for fun. It fit like a dream and threads on and off nicely. 

I am definately inspired by my failures today and look forward to success. I will apply what i have learned and progress closer to the goal. I will make a purely kitless pen, and it will be soon... very soon! 

Anyway, I just wanted to share today's experiences. If anyone is thinking of trying a kitless, it is a puzzle that will challenge your skills. Oh what fun!!


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## ldb2000 (Mar 17, 2010)

Welcome to the Dark Side of penturning Ron . Be real careful ... you will never look at kits the same way again . You'll know your too far gone for help when you start having to make each pen more elaborate then the last one and further away from kits . :biggrin:

Don't worry about the failure of this one ... there will be many , many other failures to take it's place :biggrin:


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## mredburn (Mar 17, 2010)

DO not atempt to adjust your lathe you are now leaving the peaceful calm world of pen kits and entering the ............Twilight Zone


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## Russianwolf (Mar 17, 2010)

I'm reminded of the attitude of the entire family in "Meet the Robinsons". 



"You FAILED" what a beautiful way to spend a day.


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## PenMan1 (Mar 17, 2010)

Welcome to the dark side. There is no turning back and the last success you had is not good enough for future works. The money you spend on pen turning will now dramatically increase, Not in kit and blank purchases, but for MORE,MORE,MORE new tools!


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## RAdams (Mar 17, 2010)

yeah tell me about it. I already learned that i dont have NEAR enough drill bits... I dont even know what a #7 drill bit is, but i know i need one!!


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## workinforwood (Mar 17, 2010)

You did good Ron.  Heck, we are all proud of you.  I don't imagine any of us scored a perfect pen first try..I bet most if not all of us ended up with a pen that did not function or was broke in half.  You will have to make these mistakes in order to make them less often in the future.  Eventually you'll discover things that work but are flawed due to engineering technique you used...that's probably going to be your next step to failure.  Just as an example, you can't make a rollerball nib section that unscrews from the pen in order to change your refill.  If this is your idea of engineering a pen, then you will discover that when you cap the pen all is great, then you uncap the pen and the nib section unscrews with the cap...DAMHIKT!

You are correct that you should have taped the outside of the pen prior to tapping, unless you have a metal collar as a centerband.  And, I don't think any of us have enough drill bits.  Here is a link to tell you what a #7 drill bit is....http://bobmay.astronomy.net/misc/drillchart.htm

I have hundreds of drill bits and I dont' have a #7 either.  Closest I have is a 5 mm and a 5.5mm.  You can spend thousands just on all the different sizes and types of drill bits.  The metric ones are harder to find around here too.  To get a set of bits that runs by the tenth of a millimeter is darn expensive.

Anyhow..we're all pulling for you..you can do it!


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## RAdams (Mar 17, 2010)

Thanks Jeff! I am still at it! 

I am working on attempt number two right now. I thought it out even more this time so i am already getting further. I am working on the nib feed holder now. I had the outside tapped, and drilled it out and broke off the whole threaded section. I gave up for the moment and will go back at it in a short bit. I think i have figured out how to proceed from here. 

You are totally right about the Engineering aspect. I had to rethink the whole project, which again led to more progress. 

On my new attempt, I have learned a couple of things. I think the suggested drill bits are more for tapping materials like steel, or aluminum at least. With PR, the drill bits are WAY too small i think, which leads to problems. I know if i use a bigger drill bit the threads won't be as clean, but i dont think that is a bad thing nessicarily (I know i spelled that wrong.. I am a dummy). I have the lid drilled and tapped and ready to turn, and now i am working on the nib holder section. Hopefully i will be posting a pic or two in the next few days!


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## workinforwood (Mar 18, 2010)

I always tap after I turn.  There are ways to tap before you turn of course, but I never have success that way.  One time I tried that and my threaded mandrel literally ripped the blank in half.  So if you are using a threaded mandrel to spin that, make sure you have a stop collar on it.  If you don't use a threaded mandrel on a blank you threaded before you turn it, then the blank will chatter to pieces.  So...you can do it, and lots of people thread first then turn, I just personally never have success that way.  PR does not thread well.  Maybe a slightly larger hole will help for that, but in general I do not drill a larger hole in plastics.  Just wrap the outside so the pen can't break.  Tap slowly, in and out to clear the chips, and use some cooking spray or some other lube on your tap.  If you switch to Alumilite, you will find tapping is actually kinda fun.


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## RAdams (Mar 18, 2010)

So alumilite would be a better material for doing kitless? Someone has already suggested the madreperlato line. I think this is about to start getting expensive again. Between my wife's new fondness of the Polymer Clay, and my new lust for kitless, my bank account is in real trouble.


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## workinforwood (Mar 18, 2010)

Yes Alumilite is better for Kitless than PR.  Alumilite is stronger than PR and it has some elasticity which will allow it to stretch a bit before it breaks.  You already have a pressure pot, so all you need for alumilite is the product and a weigh scale.  I am not familiar with madreperlato blanks..if he says they are good, then I'm sure they are.  Ebonite is another popular choice for kitless.  I assume from what I've read you are interested in the plastic kitless, so the threads are plastic on your nib section as well as inside your cap.  PR is much harder than the average material and so it is brittle, making it difficult to thread and if  you have success, the threads can still break down the road..it's like owning a glass pen if you do not have tubes inside it.  Personally, I prefer a kitless, tubeless pen with metal parts, but even still, the inside of the cap section will be plastic.  I drill the alumilite cap section to size, spin it, install a centerband and then tap the alumilite to recieve the pen.  It is best to do all threading stuff on the lathe in order to keep the threads square going into the pen.  Steve wrote a great post about that maybe 6 months or so ago.

I have no idea what the .973452 = x thing is all about either.:biggrin:  I just use my calipers and my wall chart.  Then if you caliper the OD of the threads on the tap, well that is the die size.  And the TPI will be the same for the tap and the die.  If I am not sure, I do some test holes in some scrap cut-offs and tap that by hand just to see how it goes.  Same thing can be done with a die..you can spin a little scrap dowel and test it.


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## BRobbins629 (Mar 18, 2010)

RAdams said:


> So alumilite would be a better material for doing kitless? Someone has already suggested the madreperlato line. I think this is about to start getting expensive again. Between my wife's new fondness of the Polymer Clay, and my new lust for kitless, my bank account is in real trouble.


Keep up the good work.  You will soon find that kitless can be LESS expensive and sell for more than kits once you have the tools.  When you are threading with taps and dies, a good rule of thumb is to do it with the most support.  Do the interior threads with a tap when the blank is at its thickest and make threaded inserts to support the interior of the blank when you are doing the exterior with dies.  With some experiments you will soon learn which materials are easier to thread and which have more of a tendency to crack.  You can also make your own press-in or glue in threaded sections from materials like Delrin or ebonite which are a dream to thread.


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## Manny (Mar 18, 2010)

Make sure you document your process so that you can repeat your success and not reapeat your failures. 

Manny


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## RAdams (Mar 18, 2010)

WOW! You guy..... er..... uh...... People are a WEALTH of info! Thank you for the inspiring words and especially for the instruction! 

to support the inner threads while i cut the outer threads, could i just put the tap back in the hole? that way i dont have to make any special fittings or whatever? 

I am unfortunately back to square one now, and i think i will see about getting some friendlier materials first! Maybe a PR alumilite trade!


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## BRobbins629 (Mar 18, 2010)

to support the inner threads while i cut the outer threads, could i just put the tap back in the hole? that way i dont have to make any special fittings or whatever? 

The tap will probably be too long if you are cutting threads on the lathe (which you should). I made a little insert out of Delrin.  Threaded the outside with the die and cut a slot with a small saw for a screwdriver.  You could also use a small screw of the right thread.


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## skiprat (Mar 18, 2010)

Keep it up Ron, we can already tell by your attitude that you will conquer these learning curves.:wink:
The price of metric drill bits ( in 0.1mm increments ) has been mentioned.
I think that if you buy boxed sets then they can be expensive as you will rarely use half of them.
Although I think that you guys can get most things cheaper than us in the UK, these drills are readily available here and I'd gladly send some over in a padded envelope.
Compare the prices at this place ( to what you pay )....it's my favourite eng shop and I go past it fairly regularly.
This link should go to the loose drill bit pages.

http://www.chronos.ltd.uk/acatalog/Chronos_Catalogue_Metric_Sizes_144.html


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## skiprat (Mar 18, 2010)

Ron, how are you holding the blank and the tap / die while you're doing the threading?. I find just about all of my breakages are ( were)  because I wasn't threading perfectly straight.

On the same link above look for 'Tapping Guide' and 'Tailstock Die Holder'
I have both of these and haven't had a breakage since.

Also, what style tap are you using? Taper, plug, bottom? I only use taper taps.


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## ldb2000 (Mar 18, 2010)

I think the biggest problem is you are trying to thread PR and that stuff breaks just looking at it wrong . I have gone through allot of PR before getting the feel for it , and I still break it too often . My freestyle pen was a perfect example , I went through 4 blanks before I finally got it right . 
Once you get the Alumilite you will be much more successful .


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## RAdams (Mar 18, 2010)

Skip, You are allright! I don't care what Cav says!:biggrin: That list of bits is quite impressive to say the least. I gotta get a tapping guide and tailstock holder thingy. Up till now, I only bought bits from HF for general use bits and CSUSA for project specific bits. I have what i thought was a fairly decent start at a bit collection. Obviously not! 


I have been using my hands to try to tap. I didnt even think of using the lathe to do it. Another genius idea! I am working on getting some alternative material to work with, and i will use the lathe to tap all i can. Until then i will continue to practice my thread cutting skills...

I have no idea what kind of taps i have. It is a super cheapo HF set that has matching tap and die in like 6 or 7 sizes. the cheap stuff for sure!



You folks are right about one thing! I WILL GET THIS!


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## stolicky (Mar 18, 2010)

I have been intently following this thread.  I recently received my small tap and die from Lou, just got the 2MT die holder from thelittlemachineshop that was back ordered, and also have a HF tap and die set.  I'm just waiting on some nib setups from Lou to arrive.

It is interesting that aluminite works so much better than PR.  How does threading acrylic acetate work?  It is nice to turn, but I don't know about threading.

So...  I'm basically right behind you in this kitless venture...


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## workinforwood (Mar 19, 2010)

It took me some time to track this thread down, but you guys that want to tap and die, check this post out, especially page #4.
http://www.penturners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=45208

Steve has his die holder in the headstock chuck, not the drill chuck, but it can be done either way you do it.  I use a collet chuck to hold my pen and a drill chuck to hole the tap or die.


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## RAdams (Mar 19, 2010)

my heart wants to jump out of my chest. 

You kind people have no idea how much you are helping me! I am like a flippin sponge sitting at the computer. taking notes, mental pictures, REAL pictures. I am gonna be posting stuff i never imagined i could even attempt soon!


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