# PMG Opinions



## greeneyedblackcat (May 14, 2009)

I'm looking to get feedback on the pen making guild, I have heard both positive and negative things about the PMG and would like your opinions. I have custom built a pen with a revolutionary new concept and I am trying to decide if there is any benefit to submitting it to the PMG before sharing it with the masses. Any input would be appreciated


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## Gary Max (May 14, 2009)

Personally--------I can't keep up with everything going on here.


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## edman2 (May 14, 2009)

Some of the finest pen turners in the country. The ones I have communicated with have been very helpful.  It depends on what you hope to gain from the membership.  If you do it so you can make more money or to boost your ego, don't bother.  If you do it because you have a deep respect for the art of pen turning and would be willing to promote its improvment and will work to advance the art, then go for it!  You will be in great company!


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## alphageek (May 14, 2009)

As one of the people who suggested it to you... I don't know a TON of the history/politics of the PMG... All I know is that some of the coolest custom pens I have seen have come from people who have joined that group.   And your pens are in that class.

Dean


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## its_virgil (May 14, 2009)

The Pen Maker's Guild has been directly involved in championing penturning and maybe even elevating what we as penturners do to a new level of acceptance. Stylus magazine featured pens made by PMG members in two consecutive issues. These articles were  directly related to efforts of a couple of the members. Also, in the last three or four years penturning rotations/demonstrations have been included in several symnposiums including the Utah Woodturning Symposium (9 demos this year and 8  last year), the AAW Annual Synmposium, and the SWAT Symposium in Texas. These demonstrations were also directly related to efforts of members of the PMG. 

BTW...I also consider the 3 penturning forums to also have been instrumental in making penturning, and what we as penturners do, more widely known and elevating the awareness of penturning.
Do a good turn daily!
Don


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## DCBluesman (May 14, 2009)

Be advised that your submission to the PMG must not be shown anywhere else prior to their review.


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## greeneyedblackcat (May 14, 2009)

DCBluesman said:


> Be advised that your submission to the PMG must not be shown anywhere else prior to their review.


 

Yup, I'm keeping this one under wraps for now


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## aggromere (May 14, 2009)

You make some wild crazy stuff.  I would submit and see what they say.  In reading up on it, it seems unique is one of the top considerations.


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## its_virgil (May 15, 2009)

With all due respect Lou, your comment is not one of the rules,although, I agree with what you say 100%. I do think a submitted pen should not be shown and discussed on public forums prior to submittal and only after a decision has been made.   

From the PMG application instructions: _While not a requirement, we suggest that you not show and discuss the application pen in a public forum beforehand.
_Do a good turn daily!
Don



DCBluesman said:


> Be advised that your submission to the PMG must not be shown anywhere else prior to their review.


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## Ligget (May 15, 2009)

Don I have always wondered about that, why should the pen you are going to submit for entry not be shown on forums beforehand?


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## greeneyedblackcat (May 15, 2009)

its_virgil said:


> With all due respect Lou, your comment is not one of the rules,although, I agree with what you say 100%. I do think a submitted pen should not be shown and discussed on public forums prior to submittal and only after a decision has been made.
> 
> From the PMG application instructions: _While not a requirement, we suggest that you not show and discuss the application pen in a public forum beforehand._
> Do a good turn daily!
> Don


 
Don, I have not shown or discussed the details of my pen on this forum, my intent was to find out more about the PMG and form my own opinions.


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## cnirenberg (May 15, 2009)

Jim,
Personally I can't wait to see what you have to submit, and when you do, post it here afterwards.  Your creativity and craftsmanship are top notch and should blow them away.  My experience with the PMG members has been very positive, and I know one personally.  He has been more than helpful and has been a real inspiration.


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## its_virgil (May 15, 2009)

The guild elders who evaluate the submission pen need and want  to do so without knowing who made the pen. The only guild elder who will know the maker's name is the one whose turn it is to receive the application and pen. The others will evaluate it without knowing the owner's and maker's name. They would like to make their decisions with total anonymity. I can think of a couple of other reasons, but I think this is the major one.
Do a good turn daily!
Don


Ligget said:


> Don I have always wondered about that, why should the pen you are going to submit for entry not be shown on forums beforehand?


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## Daniel (May 15, 2009)

I am one that has said a lot of not so positive things about the guild.
I want to say some good things about it though. First it is full of some of the best people I know not to mention very dedicated pan makers.

My only real problem with the guild is how it was formed. It does seem to have become accepted as some sort of status to be a member, and that acceptance comes from the penturning community as a whole. As for what the Guild actually contributes to penturning as a whole I really have no idea. My suspicion is that the talent is actually built in groups such as this and then a few manage to make it into the guild.

One of the biggest problems I have with the guild is that non of the people you have to be approved by ever had to meet the same requirment. one set of rules for one person anouther for the rest. My question is where is the proof that the leaders of the guild are even qualified to be in it? Thet qualification rests in only one place. someone that decided they wanted to start a group single handedly decided they belonged. no one ever asked the penturning community who should lead up a "Guild"

I honestly think that Guild should be removed from the name and it be called what it really is. The Private Club of Advanced Penmakers. "Guild" sounds good, but what has it ever accomplished to support that it is in fact a "Guild". In fact what should a group be expected to do in order to be considered a Guild. Isn't a guild supposed to be the people that advance a craft in every way? promote it expand it. have there little booth at every pen show possible, that sort of thing? Those are just some ideas I have of what a Gild woudl be doing. writing articles to have published in woodworking magazines. becomeing leaders in the wood working commuity as a whole. have a prominent presence in any penmaking realted groups or organizations. taking steps to make the craft known to the general public. promoting the idea of pen making in school shop classes. I can go on. To me those things would start looking like a guild to me. one primary job of a guild in my mind is to make room for the guy at the bottom to have a chance. I would not swear to it, But I am not awaire of a lot of that going on in what I call Richards private club of penmakers.


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## ed4copies (May 15, 2009)

its_virgil said:


> The Pen Maker's Guild has been directly involved in championing penturning and maybe even elevating what we as penturners do to a new level of acceptance. Stylus magazine featured pens made by PMG members in two consecutive issues. These articles were  directly related to efforts of a couple of the members. Also, in the last three or four years penturning rotations/demonstrations have been included in several symnposiums including the Utah Woodturning Symposium (9 demos this year and 8  last year), the AAW Annual Synmposium, and the SWAT Symposium in Texas. These demonstrations were also directly related to efforts of members of the PMG.
> 
> BTW...I also consider the 3 penturning forums to also have been instrumental in making penturning, and what we as penturners do, more widely known and elevating the awareness of penturning.
> Do a good turn daily!
> Don



Rich and Barry get a fair amount of "Ink", Lou and Anthony get a little.  How many members are there?   And how many have benefited from publicity?  That ratio would be interesting.

I would NOT submit, hoping to have my work featured in a mag.  or any other type of national publicity, unless you arrange it yourself.

FWIW


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## jttheclockman (May 15, 2009)

If I am not mistaken didn't Jeff Powell AKA workinforwood just get in and he showed his pen here before I saw his name in there????  Jeff where are you????


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## BRobbins629 (May 15, 2009)

I have very mixed feelings about the guild.  I have many friends who are members who I respect as penmakers.  If you read why it was formed in the first place, it did seem to make sense - a place for more advanced penmakers to share thoughts without all the newbie questions.  Many things they have provided in the way of publicity and tutorials are well done and serve the community well. 

Like Daniel, the criteria for entry is what always puzzled me.  All you need is one really good pen which can be a kit pen and although I don't have any real knowledge of previous submissions, it appears that the criteria has been inconsistant.  To me a true guild would require demonstration of knowledge in all the facets of pen making - nib tuning, threading, repair, inks, history, etc. not just one pen.


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## Russianwolf (May 15, 2009)

I agree somewhat with Daniel. I have not seen any real benefit to joining the PMG over being a member here and have an issue with one of their requirements.

"They should execute their “masterpiece” for submission along with a write-up of why their submission helps move the state of the art of pen making further. Perfection in fit and finish is expected along with a new or novel application in materials, construction, decoration, design or other unique feature(s)."

Guilds are not intended for the purpose of advancing a craft par se, but for setting a standard level of craftsmanship. Many guilds from the days of lore asked apprentices to make a particular pieces (a workbench for example). Promotion to guild member was based on how well you made that piece, not how you may have added something to it (a screw vice, and dog holes).These items may have made the decision easier for the master, but were not a requirement to gain membership.

By setting the requirement as they have, the first member could make a very nice stock kit pen. Nothing special, just nicely executed and finished. The next person now is required to one up it by making a closed end for example. And so on. My problem is, the first person may not be able to achieve any of the results close to those that later members are required to even gain admittance. From what I can see, PMG isn't a Guild.


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## jleiwig (May 15, 2009)

As an outsider who hasn't gotten full blown into pen turning yet, I see much better quality pens posted here than any of the gallery pens on the guild site.  

It is my personal opinion that the site and the photography, and the pens are dated last generation stuff.  To my mind to be admitted to a guild, you have to have achieved a body of work that culminates in a single work of art that defines who you are as an artist.  

I don't know, but I wouldn't want to be compared to a segmented corian pen for admission into the guild.  Really?  A corian pen?  For a group that is supposed to be the creme de la creme?  

I guess what I'm saying is how can something be taken seriously as the pinnacle of acheivement when there are first timers here posting better quality stuff?


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## Daniel (May 15, 2009)

Ed, I do realize that the members of the guild are some of the most active persons in penmaking. Writing articles, making exceptional examples of our work, being active in demos etc. this still does not establish in my mind that if this is the work of the guild in which then the rest of penturning gains a benefit. or the other way around. I tend to think it is the other way around. As I said I do not know what goes on in the guild. I know a lot of what goes on here. I saw articles being written long before the guild was even an idea. the symposium and people demoing at it likewise. 
TO me it is the differnce between is the Gild causing any of this onit's own or jsut grabbing the talent, effort, dedication when it has developed elswhere. there will always be some degree of that as you need to become involved enough somewhere to then qualify to be in a guild. but I have not noticed any effort that I woud consider to be teh Guilds. It can claim that it's memebrs have done such and such. was this accomplishment due to any benefit of being a guild member? If so how, how has the guild specifically facilitated any advancment of penturning in any way? did it fund demonstrations, did it fund the participation of it's members to in any function? did it prepair any of it's memebrs to participate in any way that they could not have gotten from other penturning groups?  Extra support or even recognition that opened up oportunities. if so then maybe the Guild is starting to have some impact in a way i think a guild should be having an impact. to me a guild has the power to open doors that otherwise could not be opened. it has the ability to do what other organizations cannot. So far I simply have not seen enough of this for it to be noticed. Not any that I would attribute to the guild. memebrs of the guild writing articles, when they wrote articles before the guilds existance is not a credit to the guild in any way to me.
last time I visited the guild forum very little if anything was actualy happening.


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## Paul in OKC (May 15, 2009)

I like the idea of the guild. I agree with what Don said about it advancing the craft of what we, or at least some, desire to achieve in making our pens. I have been a member for some time, though not much of a poster there. Most all the pens shown there get shown here as well. I like a challenge, and the guild is that, IMHO, of something to shoot for.  Like what was said above, if you are doing it for ego, or something along that line, I think you will be disappointed.   Go for it!


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## ed4copies (May 15, 2009)

MY PERCEPTION of the guild is a core group of people who have made contacts in the pen world, with a large "membership" who have little or no say in the guild.

The "guild leadership" can then tell Stylus and Pen World that they have xxxx members, lending more credibility to those leaders' words.  And, that handful of folks who meet regularly at the shows, continue to be featured.  (NOTHING wrong with this: however, I don't see how the "average member" benefits).

It is a tool for the promotion of penmaking, by promoting a handful of selected "founders" and other more prominent members (define prominent as you see fit).

They make GREAT pens.  But, so do a lot of other people who don't need "Membership" in an "elite" group.   Wouldn't the world be boring, if we all agreed on everything???


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## workinforwood (May 15, 2009)

I did not show my guild pen before I was accepted into the guild.  Other than that little fact, I have nothing to say on the subject of the Guild.  I get my magazine articles on my own, just hard work and determination.


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## Daniel (May 15, 2009)

Before I end up with a mail box full of messages wondering who i have it in for. I want to for once make it clear why the guild calling itself a guild is really an issue for me. 

First it is not what a lot of people have accused it of of being. which in a nut shell is that I have some burr up my butt at someone.

It is quite true that penturning is pulling against a general perception that it is what people do when they do not want to do real woodworking.

This is not nearly as true today as it was even just a few years ago. Much of the reason for this change in attitudes has been articles written in woodworking magazines. The presence of penturners work at symposiums, the involvment of pentuners in doing demos. as well as penturning starting to incorporate some degrees of craftsmanship that simply cannot be ignored.

We cannot expect the world to take us any more seriously than we demonstrate we take ourselves. To me the word Guild has a huge indication that this is what the penturning community considers to be the best of it's best. in the case of this guild that could not be further from the truth. the Guild is on fact one persons idea of what is the best of the best. Yet the world will still look at it as penturning as a wholes idea.

Unless anyone was willing to actually take a close hard look at the establishment of the guild this would likely never be known.

So to make my thought clearer, lets say that I do convince the president of the AAW to take a hard serious look at penturning as a seriously recongnized form of woodworking on it's own. One obvious place to start looking would be a place calling itself the guild. In the event this happened, what would this established and recognized person of authority in the woodworking world find?

Her is just one example of many many examples of some things I have noticed that are not good. there are many that are good but in my mind it only takes a few bad points to undermine the recognition. and any blatant ones tend to cause people to look at penturners and just snicker.

my example is that the very person that established the guild, that took the sole responsibility of appointing it's elders. and that every decisions concerning the foundation of the guild. does not even posses the knowledge of shop equipment that woudl be gained from having read better homes and gardens wood shop series of books. This is not ment to be an insult. is is true Richard publically insulted me over an issue of how to fine tune a band saw in order to get it to cut a straight line when the suggestion I made came straight from such a newbies source of information. as far as I know he does not posses this knowledge even today. the net effect to anyone that does consider themselves to be a serious woodworker is that penturning is a joke.

Even in the penturning community it is pretty much accepted that because it is a guild it must be something worth being in. being a member means you have been recognized as one of the best. But I never see anyone ask, Recognized by who?
who are these elders? and what qualifies them to be Elders? Who decided that these are the people we want set forward as the best examples of our craft?

I think the guild and how it was formed is a huge mistake and underminds the ability of penturning to be recognized as a distinct and serious part of woodworking. It is to easy to assume that Guild means it is an example of penturnings best when in fact it is only the idea of one person and what they think is best. And although this person is making a statment for the entire community He has made it more than evident that any comment from that community is not welcome. To be a member of the guild requires that you turn your back to the very people that have made penturing what it is and make a statement intentional or not that there voice is no longer needed or desired. when in fact the only true input of the guild comes via it's members involvment in that very community. 

It is not Richards fault that people will make the assumptions that they will about the name of his group. But does not change the truth that they will, they do, and that for me adds a huge burden to just what his group now demonstrates about what my craft is.  very few of the members of the guild would qualify to be leaders in my opinon, and non of the elders are qualified to be elders. no insult to the elders intended but in my mind qualificaton to be an Elder would require far more than just one person deciding to invite you. sorry but resumes would be involved heavily as well as things like history of involvment and accomplishments in the craft.

In contrast, I once read a comment by one of the current Elders that their invitation to no only join the guild, but be an elder, came as a complete suprise. they had no idea that they would even be asked. now ask yourself. is this the attitude and effort that you would expect a person to have to go through to be the leader of the supposidly best of the best. of course for you to be a member you are required to go all out and create original never before seen work. but your leaders didn't even need to have a desire or thought about getting in. something just wrong as all get out in that for me.


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## Mudder (May 15, 2009)

ed4copies said:


> ..... How many members are there?   .......



http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PenMakersGuild/?yguid=74663167


According to the Yahoo groups site there are currently 80 members. I have been a member for a couple of years now.


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## jttheclockman (May 15, 2009)

I did not know of all the requirements and tried to join just to see some of the photos and was REJECTED. To be rejected into a forum that is on a worlwide net to me is pretty snobish. I just stay here thank you very much. My work will never be world class. I get blown away with the work that is posted here so this is my inspiration. :yin-yang:


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## Russianwolf (May 15, 2009)

I wonder, does anyone in the know know if Broadwell or Tighe have been invited to join? I would think that any group like this would try their best to have some of the biggest names as members.


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## Daniel (May 15, 2009)

Mike, you touch on one thing I do notice. Everyone seems to have there own idea of what it is. yet nobody really seems to know what it is. Even my worst imaginations are only my imaginations. is the guild really having any of the impact I "Worry" about. the truth is I have not seen any evidence of it after several years of it's existence. Pretty much the Guild is just it's quiet little group. Doing what ever it is doing. It seems to get brought up once or twice a year and tossed around, then it goes back to being it's quiet little group.
By the way, I do agree that in the Yahoo forums format a quiet little group is not only a good idea it very probably is a necessary idea, shoot around here a quiet little area is needed at times. there are times when issues need to be discussed by informed, committed, focused individuals without the distraction of every opinion in the group. That is why when we had a board of directors we took it pretty much off sight for our meetings. we still got flooded with opinions when we announced decisions from those meetings. so I do agree that among the masses is not always the place to make cutting edge advancements. and even if ideas are born among the masses it is not necessarily the best place to develop those ideas. I also believe that it is this removal from the masses that is at the heart of Richards motivation to form the guild.

Personally I would like to see a guild, a true guild be formed. on that is developed on a sound foundation, supported by the penturning community and that really does demonstrate the best of the best that penturning has to offer. based upon the criteria set by the community not an individual.

That would be a monsterous task to accomplish. but should a Guild be easy in any way? Easy to form, easy to become a member of, easy to reamin a member of? should it be setting back watching what is going on or should it be at the leading edge of what is going on? should it be influenced by the masses or the influence to the masses? 

Think about it, how much of a guild can the guild be when so many penturners don't even know it exists.


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## PR_Princess (May 15, 2009)

Daniel…a rose by any other name. Mike..I don’t think that you get invited to the PMG.  You have to make the decision to join.

  Green Eyed.  I think that your pens are unique. I believe that you would do well, should you choose to apply.  Personally, I see no detriment in being a member of guild, but I do see some potential benefits. What those turn out to be, will for the most part, be dependent on you. But in the end analysis, what do you really have to lose by submitting your application?


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## Russianwolf (May 15, 2009)

Daniel, I honestly think IAP is much closer to being a Guild than PMG is. 

In the guild shops of old you had three distinct roles. Apprentices, who were new to the craft and learning the basics. They would at some point graduate to being a Journeyman, who was competent at the craft and was accepted in the guild. And after finding their signature/calling they would become Masters, usually owning a shop. 

We have people that fit in all three of those catagories here. How quickly one advances is based totally on their progression. I myself would consider myself a journeyman at best. I'm competent enough that my work can be sold with satisfaction, but haven't yet found my signature style. Others like Steve and Bruce, I would call Masters. They turn out works of art that are original in concept and execution. 

But a guild would not survive by excluding the journeymen. Some of the best ideas I've seen have come from people during their journeyman stage. They are thinking constantly about possibilities, and no one laughs when the possibility flops (as they would if it were a Master who should be able to think enough ahead to avoid that).

Back then People could go to a guild shop and they knew that they would receive a quality product. The guild member understood that he not only represented himself, but all the other guild shops. Poor craftmanship would be a reason for them to be removed from the guild (if not killed outright). You could find nice product from non-guild shops, but it was more of a buyer beware proposition. 

I would liken it to having your car fixed. If you go to a dealership, it'll likely cost more, but you know it will get fixed and they'll warranty it. Go to a a small garage and the guy may be as good or better than the dealer, or he could put Windex in your transmission to quiet the noise until it breaks all-together (I know someone who had it happen) and charge you the same price.


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## DCBluesman (May 15, 2009)

This subject gets side-tracked and misinformation is posted every time it comes up. Let's level the playing field and let the PMG define itself.

*



			About the Pen Makers Guild
		
Click to expand...

*


> *Creation of the Pen Makers Guild*
> 
> The Pen Makers Guild was formed in July of 2003. The Guild was an outgrowth of the explosion in new pen makers joining the Yahoo Penturners Group. The Yahoo Penturners Group had grown from 20 to over 2000. It is now over 3000 strong. With the large numbers of new members, the topics were always returning to the very basics to accommodate that continuing influx of very beginner penturners. There was little opportunity to expand into the more advanced topics of pen turning and pen making. The Pen Makers Guild was formed to provide a forum for those more advanced topics. It was planned that as penturners advanced their skills, they could migrate to the Guild as appropriate.
> 
> ...


 
As far as I know, there are no other promises or assertions.


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## Daniel (May 15, 2009)

Lou, It woudl be nice if the Guild could in fact define itself. The truth is that is not the case. the masses define it mostly with little more info than reading the word Guild. 
It would also be far more credible to look at what the guild has to say about itself if this was not the third or fourth statement I have seen they have written.


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## Mudder (May 15, 2009)

jttheclockman said:


> I did not know of all the requirements and tried to join just to see some of the photos and was REJECTED.



John,

The gallery is here and anyone can view:

http://www.penmakersguild.com/


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## greeneyedblackcat (May 15, 2009)

PR_Princess said:


> Daniel…a rose by any other name. Mike..I don’t think that you get invited to the PMG. You have to make the decision to join.
> 
> Green Eyed. I think that your pens are unique. I believe that you would do well, should you choose to apply. Personally, I see no detriment in being a member of guild, but I do see some potential benefits. What those turn out to be, will for the most part, be dependent on you. But in the end analysis, what do you really have to lose by submitting your application?


 Dawn, Thanks for the kind words, I didn't know this would be such a hot topic. I was just trying to figure out what exactly the pen guild was and why there were so many opinions. I am more than willing to share my ideas with everyone, just looking for the best way to do it.


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## alphageek (May 15, 2009)

greeneyedblackcat said:


> Dawn, Thanks for the kind words, I didn't know this would be such a hot topic. I was just trying to figure out what exactly the pen guild was and why there were so many opinions. I am more than willing to share my ideas with everyone, just looking for the best way to do it.



Wow.. neither did I... I just know that there is a few here that I have seen make pens that got them into the guild and I think yours 'compete' well....  No matter what you do... Good luck and keep making those cool things.


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## wdcav1952 (May 15, 2009)

As Lou pointed out, there is almost always a ton of information and mis-information posted when the PMG is mentioned.

I have met Rich K through numerous emails and found him to be a no nonsense person who is more than willing to help anyone who shows some motivation to help themselves.  At the Yahoo group, I once asked a question and noted that since I was in a hurry (or something like that) I had not tried to look up the answer myself.  Rich point blank asked me why had I not attempted to find the answer on my own.  After getting over being a bit pissed, I realized that his answer was like that of a teacher who being asked how to spell a word, told me to look it up.  My thought was "how can I look up a word I can't spell?"  Well, you open a dictionary and try to get close by spelling as much of the word as you can.  On the way, you learn not only how to spell the word in question, but you stand to learn other words that will improve your vocabulary.  Like here at the IAP library, there is an incredible source of knowledge at the Yahoo group if you choose to take the time to browse through it.  I often have found answers to questions I did not know that I needed to ask.  For example, I found that you don't put pens with a fresh CA finish in a closed box before I ruined any pens by doing so.

If I start a new group, I have the right to name it as I choose.  For example I might start the Bushing to Bushing Guild.  As the founder of the BBG, I have the right to limit access, membership, hair color and whatever else appeals to me.  If someone gets angry at me personally because I did not choose that person to be in my BBG when I started it, that has to be their own particular lions' den, not mine.  Some of the most ardent opposition to the PMG comes from those who were not selected when it started.  The word guild, as other words that have been in our vocabulary for literally hundreds of years, has evolved in meaning.  I sincerely doubt that many people picture the medieval guilds when they hear the word.

any of various medieval associations, as of merchants or artisans, organized to maintain standards and to protect the interests of its members, and that sometimes constituted a local governing body

In my opinion, modern readers are more likely to think of a guild as this definition:

an organization of persons with related interests, goals, etc., esp. one formed for mutual aid or protection.

As far as people complaining about their "right" to join my BBG, they do not have that right.  A "C" student can whine all they want, but they will not be accepted to an honor society that requires a certain grade point average.

Let me specify that I have never and almost certainly will never apply for membership in the PMG.  I enjoy pen turning and admire the artistry of others who go far beyond my simple B2B efforts.  I also appreciate the help and information I get directly and indirectly from other pen turners be they PMG members or not.  Certain members I mentally place on a pedestal because of the common sense information they share.

Finally, with regards to the PMG, if you like the PMG and what they do, fine.  If you do not, that is fine also, but please do not try to bring it down and demean it to others.  Simply ignore PMG posts if you do not approve of the PMG. Calling out individuals by name to belittle their accomplishments is small and mean spirited and diminishes the person who does so.


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## greeneyedblackcat (May 15, 2009)

wdcav1952 said:


> As Lou pointed out, there is almost always a ton of information and mis-information posted when the PMG is mentioned.
> 
> I have met Rich K through numerous emails and found him to be a no nonsense person who is more than willing to help anyone who shows some motivation to help themselves. At the Yahoo group, I once asked a question and noted that since I was in a hurry (or something like that) I had not tried to look up the answer myself. Rich point blank asked me why had I not attempted to find the answer on my own. After getting over being a bit pissed, I realized that his answer was like that of a teacher who being asked how to spell a word, told me to look it up. My thought was "how can I look up a word I can't spell?" Well, you open a dictionary and try to get close by spelling as much of the word as you can. On the way, you learn not only how to spell the word in question, but you stand to learn other words that will improve your vocabulary. Like here at the IAP library, there is an incredible source of knowledge at the Yahoo group if you choose to take the time to browse through it. I often have found answers to questions I did not know that I needed to ask. For example, I found that you don't put pens with a fresh CA finish in a closed box before I ruined any pens by doing so.
> 
> ...


 


 Sounds logical, Hey Cav, are you accepting applicant's to that BBG guild ?  What color hair do I have to have for admittance?  (GREEN???)


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## jttheclockman (May 15, 2009)

Mudder said:


> John,
> 
> The gallery is here and anyone can view:
> 
> http://www.penmakersguild.com/


 

Now here is the best information I got out of this topic. Thanks Scott. When I submitted my application I put down I was interested in seeing the gallery and was told it was for members only. I just thought it was another pen turning forum. Did not know it had such a history. HA HA I can see their pens.:tongue:


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## wdcav1952 (May 15, 2009)

greeneyedblackcat said:


> Sounds logical, Hey Cav, are you accepting applicant's to that BBG guild ?  What color hair do I have to have for admittance?  (GREEN???)



Catman, I just checked - the approved hair color is graying and thinning!


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## penhead (May 15, 2009)

WHAT...wait a minute...you have to have hair to get into the BBG..??!!
Well, that's not fair.

How can it be a guild then, you saying back several hundred years when the word guild was first stated that all men had hair...I don't think so.....  %>)



wdcav1952 said:


> Catman, I just checked - the approved hair color is graying and thinning!


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## ldb2000 (May 16, 2009)

Jim . Your work , at least the pens you have shown so far , would qualify you for admittance into the PMG , the main question is "Do you really care if you become a member?" . 
When I first started making pens I found the Guild before I found the IAP . I sat for hours drooling over the work of Jay Pickens and the Gisi's and Bruce Boone and thought that someday I would like to become good enough to be accepted into the Guild . 
Well a few months ago I submitted a pen and was accepted . It is one of the proudest moments in my life . I still love to go look at the gallery and drool over the photos of the members and dream of making pens of the caliber of some of these people . I live for the challenge of producing a pen that will top the ones listed there , and someday I might , but until then I will keep drooling . 
Anyone who has seen the work there and says that being a member and having a photo gallery with the likes of these people wouldn't boost their ego a few points is either lying or a fool . I don't give a rats a.. about the politics of the guild , it's the work that these people do that inspired me to work towards becoming a member .
If your just trying to show off or brag about being a member then don't bother applying because most of these people really do care about being the best penmakers they can be and it shows in their work . If you really care about this craft and you feel that your work shows a love for the craftsmanship in making the best pens you possibly can then I say " Go for it " , your pens are definitely worthy of acceptance .

Cav . Please send me an application to the BBG I think I can help further the cause (and my hair would meet the requirements)


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## Ligget (May 16, 2009)

The problem I have is with a sentence from what Lou posted *"Perfection in fit and finish is expected along with a new or novel application in materials, construction, decoration, design or other unique feature(s)".*
** 
I make pens from kits, I really enjoy this aspect, I can manage a perfect fit and finish but have problems coming up with the new or novel application, this would have been easier for the first person to do but gradually gets harder as membership numbers increase.

So if I make pens from kits and have perfected the fit and finish does this mean I will never meet the application criteria of the PMG, unless I add something unique?:crying:


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## jttheclockman (May 16, 2009)

Ligget said:


> The problem I have is with a sentence from what Lou posted *"Perfection in fit and finish is expected along with a new or novel application in materials, construction, decoration, design or other unique feature(s)".*
> 
> I make pens from kits, I really enjoy this aspect, I can manage a perfect fit and finish but have problems coming up with the new or novel application, this would have been easier for the first person to do but gradually gets harder as membership numbers increase.
> 
> So if I make pens from kits and have perfected the fit and finish does this mean I will never meet the application criteria of the PMG, unless I add something unique?:crying:


 
Yea Mark neither you nor I will never get in the club. What a shame. :crying: I guess I do not have that big of an ego to need a title after my pens. I will just be happy to share them with us common folk.


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## ldb2000 (May 16, 2009)

Ligget said:


> The problem I have is with a sentence from what Lou posted *"Perfection in fit and finish is expected along with a new or novel application in materials, construction, decoration, design or other unique feature(s)".*
> 
> I make pens from kits, I really enjoy this aspect, I can manage a perfect fit and finish but have problems coming up with the new or novel application, this would have been easier for the first person to do but gradually gets harder as membership numbers increase.
> 
> So if I make pens from kits and have perfected the fit and finish does this mean I will never meet the application criteria of the PMG, unless I add something unique?:crying:


 
Mark . I think you are missing the point of the PMG . The guild was founded for those who feel the need to go beyond the perfect kit pen and make a pen that is uniquely their own . 
It's not a sign of a "Big Ego" to want to make a pen that goes beyond a beautiful kit pen as someone stated . There is nothing wrong in not wanting to make anything other then beautiful kit pens , and you have made some of the most beautiful kit pens I have ever seen and your finishes are superb (I wish I could get the finishes you get) .
I feel that what the kit manufacturers offer us leave allot of room for improvement , so I go beyond a plain kit pen and modify them or in some cases design my own creations and this is where the PMG comes in . Nothing against the new turners that ask the same questions over and over but after awhile you just want to say enough , search first then ask questions . The PMG avoids this problem by making Advanced penmaking a requirement .


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## Ligget (May 16, 2009)

Hi Butch, I didnt say anything about a big ego.


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## ldb2000 (May 16, 2009)

Ligget said:


> Hi Butch, I didnt say anything about a big ego.


 
No Mark you didn't someone else did .


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## TowMater (May 16, 2009)

I think some of you folks need to form the Anti-Guild. 

I always wonder at the motivations of folks that harbor such strong feelings, but don't bother posting please, as I quit reading about 3 pages ago and just went to the PMG site and looked around for myself.

The great, and at the same time terrible, thing about the internet is that you can start up a group like this anytime you like and call it pretty much anything you like.

I may start up the Lazy Couch Slug Guild if I ever get up the energy.

Greeneyedcat dude, your pens rock. If anyone deserved to be part of an advanced group I would say you are there!


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## workinforwood (May 16, 2009)

Several people miss the point of the Guild.  Regardless of whether you think the founders are worthy, the ultimate goal is worthy.  The guild wants people with new idea's, to expand penturning as a whole.  The point of the guild is to have nothing but vast variety of techniques and idea's so as to inspire all others that wish to advance their own skills.  If you are happy just making a cigar pen kit, nobody has anything against that.  Someone that just makes kit pens from a single piece of wood does not belong in the guild, because of the simple fact that it does not inspire people to explore new idea's.  That's all it is all about.  It doesn't really have anything to do with your fit and finish, other than the fact that if you make some really awesome new pen design but it is all ragged and rough fitting, then it will defeat it's own purpose of inspiration.  When I read what the guild is, that is what I read.  You have to look between the lines in some ways to see this.  Because of what I believe the guild to truly be, I believe it should exist.  I believe John <greeneycat>, should join the guild so that the rest of the world has easy access to his shared idea's and concepts.  It's a library of fresh new idea's, nothing more, nothing less.

Now I wish we would stop berating the guild.  You don't like the guild, fine, that's your right, but why carry on about it?  Start your own private club with your own rules.  Only one stopping you is yourself.


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## scubaman (May 16, 2009)

jttheclockman said:


> Now here is the best information I got out of this topic. Thanks Scott. When I submitted my application I put down I was interested in seeing the gallery and was told it was for members only. I just thought it was another pen turning forum. Did not know it had such a history. HA HA I can see their pens.:tongue:


I'm constantly surprised by people that can't read what's in front of their eyes. If you go to the guild main page, I think it's all spelled out there - there is a link to the gallery right there, you click it and it takes you there! There is also a note that we do NOT use the yahoo 'join' button, and a link to the application page - you click it and it takes you RIGHT THERE. We tried the yahoo JOIN process, and it did not meet our needs. Re. the 'rejection' notice you (or someone) was commenting about - again, if you read it, only the title has the word reject in it... that is out of our control, yahoo adds that. Of course we could not send any notice to people who did not read the main page and clicked JOIN and expect them to perhaps go back and find the info for themselves - I can tell you we had more complaints when people tried to join and nothing happened... so we send a (what I believe to be) very polite letter with the correct information. I'm afraid there is not a single process that will make everyone happy. I would love to be able to suppress the JOIN button, or to take the word REJECT out - but as long as we use yahoo we can't.

I'd like to take the opportunity to address a couple of the issues brought up in this thread, since a lot of people are not aware of the history and some of the posts above present a rather distorted view. I'll just present some facts, I'm not going to drag this out into a discussion. Of course, this is my own perspective.

The Guild was formed before the IAP. The IAP was in part a reaction to the Guild. I'm not inferring that the people that were involved in setting up the IAP (all of whom I know fairly well, I think) never thought about forming such a group before the Guild was set up. But much of the framework was a reaction to the Guild, an improvement. Lots of democracy, lots of rules. The IAP has changed since then, some of the concepts worked, some did not. E.g., the notion of an elite group within the IAP and membership tiers was a subject of much discussion. Who claims to be perfect? Groups evolve. The fact that the Guild has changed over the years is grounds for attacking it?

The Guild is what it's members make it. As it turns out, lots of folks join and never post again, not even pens, let alone discussions. Not exactly what we had in mind when we set it up - but then it's not something to force, and at this point, there *ARE* lots of alternatives that were not there when the guild was formed.

People joining the craft now have no idea where the craft was 6 years ago. What is commonplace now was state of the art once. Closed-end pens, even glued-up pens were NOT always there. Today's penturners benefit from the evolution of the craft. To look at an advanced pen of a few years ago and snicker just shows disrespect for history.

The notion that the Guild is just a platform to promote myself personally is ludicrous. When I managed to get some exposure for the Guild, all members were invited. Some members have got individual exposure in some of the media - I have not. 'nuff said.

Guild-bashing is a sport around here, for some. There are some individuals that love attacking the Guild and me personally. Well, it's their agenda, and I won't even go into the background as to what got them there. I just do not care for the dissemination of false information, half-truths and negative innuendo.

No Guild member has ever claimed that the Guild is the only place for advanced pen makers, as far as I know. I know many many very talented pen makers that have no interest, for any number of reasons. That will always be the case. There are many Guild members that make pens far above what I can make personally - and there are many non-Guild-members whose level I will probably never reach.

I think the Guild can be proud about what we have done for pen making. Things today's newcomers to the craft take for granted. In an indirect sense, the Guild is even responsible a little for this very place to be here, and the way it is operating - if only by providing contrast :smile-big:

Whether to apply? This is where this thread started... This is up to the individual, whether they see a benefit. The Guild has a little bit of name recognition in pen circles at this point. It may help, there's no guarantee. If we get another group-exposure you'll be offered the opportunity to participate. The Guild may change in the future - if the members are interested. The Guild is *NOT* my personal circle of friends... I know some but not all of the members, the council members (btw the term 'elders' died long time ago ;-) are a group with various strengths and areas of expertise, chosen for that reason. We prefer pens not to be widely shown before a submission, simply because it's harder to judge independently and not be swayed by knowing the applicant's identity or by 'public opinion'.


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## scubaman (May 16, 2009)

I generally don't post such long posts, and in the time it took me to write this I see a few more pages were posted. WOW! Life is getting too fast for me ;-) I just want to acknowledge a lot of sane information posted above.


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## jttheclockman (May 16, 2009)

I see my name was brought up twice here so I will respond. I reported what I found and was sent by way of email. I am glad we are all able to see the great looking pens there. I and am sure many can read things on forums and maybe do not comprehend them right away so if you want to say I am guilty of missing the invite on their home page than shoot me. As far as the problem that I see it is in the name "GUILD" and the concept behind it. If the group was called "Advanced Pen Turning" or something on that line it probably would not take on the negative conotation that it has. I am finished with this conversation Have a great turning day and continue putting out those fantastic pens for all to see on all sites. It gives us beginners motivation.


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## ed4copies (May 16, 2009)

Editorial opinion, somewhat unrelated:


*Congratulations 
IAP members!!
*​
This topic has, in the past, degenerated to name calling and nasty entries.  I believe this community has raised it's standards.  This thread has stayed on the facts and people's opinions, but no one has taken "personal shots!!"

Please KEEP UP the GOOD discourse --- on ALL threads!!

I truly LIKE this group!
and we ARE maturing!
​


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## Ligget (May 16, 2009)

Just to personally cover my ass, I was clarifying a point I had, that was carified "thanks Butch", I didln`t want folks thinking I was a guild basher as I may want to join sometime.

I agree with Ed that the group has matured, keep it up everyone.


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## Russianwolf (May 16, 2009)

jttheclockman said:


> As far as the problem that I see it is in the name "GUILD" and the concept behind it. If the group was called "Advanced Pen Turning" or something on that line it probably would not take on the negative conotation that it has.



precisely. As the "Pen Makers Guild" name implies it would include ALL types of pen makers, not specifically "advanced" or "creative" which I think is the intention. 

I don't have any complaints against the group personally, just that one criteria I mentioned doesn't seem to make sense to me.


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## bruce119 (May 16, 2009)

You know when I first started I discovered the Guild. Before I even knew what it was or meant it seem like a plateau I wanted to achieve. I even had the pleasure of Kurt visiting me very early in my first few months of pen making. He helped inspire me to create. I think I have created a few unique things mostly in the blank part of pen making though. I still have a desire to join the guild and I don't think I am quite there yet. My problem is not skill I just need to take some time and do that masterpiece. Like I told Kurt when he visited me when I apply I want it to be one time the first time. I had my sights set on the guild early in my pen making but now since I am doing shows and making some blanks I just don't have the time. But I do still want to get there Don & Rich are two others that inspired me also. And that is what I would want to do help to inspire others.


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## wolftat (May 16, 2009)

This really is not that important in the big picture, so I am going to start my own club and I'm not going to let anyone in ever, for any reason. If you would like to join my club please send the $21,000,000 application fee and if you don't hear from me with in a week, don't be suprised. Now on to better things.


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## ed4copies (May 16, 2009)

Neil, 

Your check is in the mail and I promise I won't...........................................

fill in the blank!!

Ed


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## chriselle (May 16, 2009)

wolftat said:


> This really is not that important in the big picture, so I am going to start my own club and I'm not going to let anyone in ever, for any reason. If you would like to join my club please send the $21,000,000 application fee and if you don't hear from me with in a week, don't be suprised. Now on to better things.



OK!  As long as I don't have to submit a pen.:wink:


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## Texatdurango (May 16, 2009)

Wow, I just read through all of this, what a load of garbage from some of you!  

The sad thing is that more than likely some of those jealous individuals bashing the guild or bashing individuals in the guild, have probably been helped out by guild members right here on this forum without knowing it!

Personally I have been given lots of advice by Richard on threading and making hidden clips and never once felt he was talking down to me and think some of you guys need to find something more constructive to do if all you can do is bash fellow forum members!


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## jttheclockman (May 17, 2009)

I didn't read any bashing of individuals did anyone else??? Opinions!!!!!!!!!! Everyone is entitled to them. Everyone can't agree on everything. Would be a boring world.


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## bobskio2003 (May 17, 2009)

As a Guild member for about 3 or 4 years now I can say the biggest thing I see out of the guild is the rapid progression of pen making.  It's too bad that the photographs aren't in chronological order because then you'd see a real progression (just as has happened in other forms of turning).  I got in (I believe) because I was one of the first to work on the knot.  I believe I got in just before Ron McNight(? - Sorry not good with name).  He was much better at his photography and promotion and really pushed the knot designs and that is just fine with me.  But by today's standards I doubt I'd ever be accepted (although I continue to push myself as time allows).  I have seen many great pens in this forum and again I suppose if there was a chronological way of seeing pen photos you would see the same progression but the Guild really emphasizes that progression while this forum (while doing the same thing) also encourages and helps out the new folks to pen making and everything in between.


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## wdcav1952 (May 17, 2009)

jttheclockman said:


> I didn't read any bashing of individuals did anyone else??? Opinions!!!!!!!!!! Everyone is entitled to them. Everyone can't agree on everything. Would be a boring world.



Re-read the thread looking for references to Rich K, also known as the founder of the PMG.


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## jttheclockman (May 17, 2009)

wdcav1952 said:


> Re-read the thread looking for references to Rich K, also known as the founder of the PMG.


 

William  there is an underlying message in there that is way before my time of joining this site or any other turning site so I can not comment on that.


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## wdcav1952 (May 17, 2009)

John,

I have no fight with you on this or any other subject.  Since you posted that you had not noticed any bashing of an individual, I made my post.  Of course you are right in that this was far before you joined and you have no part in it.  I just wanted to make the point that an individual had been bashed.

Enough, someone post a pretty pen.


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## greeneyedblackcat (May 17, 2009)

wdcav1952 said:


> John,
> 
> I have no fight with you on this or any other subject. Since you posted that you had not noticed any bashing of an individual, I made my post. Of course you are right in that this was far before you joined and you have no part in it. I just wanted to make the point that an individual had been bashed.
> 
> Enough, someone post a pretty pen.


 
OkeeDoKee, here you go Cav a pretty pen


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## wdcav1952 (May 18, 2009)

Dadgumit, Jim, I said a pretty pen, not an awesome one!!!  :biggrin:


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## greeneyedblackcat (May 18, 2009)

wdcav1952 said:


> Dadgumit, Jim, I said a pretty pen, not an awesome one!!! :biggrin:


 
My Bad :O  Is this one better


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## wdcav1952 (May 18, 2009)

Yes, that one I at least have a prayer of making one like it!!


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## ed4copies (May 18, 2009)

wdcav1952 said:


> Yes, that one I at least have a prayer of making one like it!!



Hail, Cav, full of bull,

you need the lord with you,

"Blessed" would be your favorite word

And "blessed" would be the fruit of your labors,

should you succeed.  Everyone would say, JEEEZZE!

Holy Cav!!!  he had a prayer!!

(Just for YOU!!!)


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## wdcav1952 (May 18, 2009)

Originally Posted by wdcav1952  
Yes, that one I at least have a prayer of making one like it!!  




ed4copies said:


> Hail, Cav, full of bull,
> 
> you need the lord with you,
> 
> ...




Ed, after careful and very appreciative consideration of the first prayer ever dedicated to me, I have to ask:  Do I get special "Cav"ary beads to go with it? :biggrin:


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## BRobbins629 (May 19, 2009)

wdcav1952 said:


> Originally Posted by wdcav1952
> Yes, that one I at least have a prayer of making one like it!!
> 
> 
> ...


You could try this pen blank


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## wdcav1952 (May 19, 2009)

Bruce,  thanks, but I am looking in to buying the Cheeto someone said looks like Jesus for a special blank!


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## ed4copies (May 19, 2009)

*Did you say CA???*



wdcav1952 said:


> Bruce,  thanks, but I am looking in to buying the Cheeto someone said looks like Jesus for a special blank!




Monty is looking forward to helping you succeed with that one!!!


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## workinforwood (May 19, 2009)

I let out a fart that looked like Elvis, but it got away.


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