# Actual Ivory???



## Sabaharr (Sep 17, 2015)

A while back I saw an ad about actual ivory for sale to craft people. Many different sizes were listed and pen blank size was one of them and even goes into how to turn it with less chance of blowing the blank. Supposedly it was a museum that had many old tusks stored in its basement that were there before the ban and were legal to be in the USA. I have mixed feelings about this as I know the animal was killed just for the tusks, but it was long ago and it can't be changed now. I do agree with the ban on importation of ivory and hides of endangered species though. Animals should not be killed solely for their aesthetic value. Then again this could all be a hoax to begin with and its mammoth tusk being sold which is perfectly legal and no animals were killed for it, at least not in a few thousand years. would anyone else be opposed to the use of pre ban ivory? I sure am leaning away from it but just don't know. What if its real but smuggled? Comes with a COA from the museum but all that requires is a printer. Guess I could look up the museum and call them then the local BBB to see if they are legit but that still won't solve my ethical dilemma. Thoughts?


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## plantman (Sep 17, 2015)

If you can get a sample in your hand give it the hot pin test to see if it is real. A heated pin will  not sink into real ivory, if it does, it's not real. As for pre ban or not, it's takes a lot of paper work, documents, and permits to possess much less sell Ivory. A COA  is not enough to satisfy the US Government. You need sales records for the time it was purchased and import records from the country of origin. I can not foresee a museum cutting up a real elephant tusk in order to make pen or any other blanks. Ivory is usually sold at auction, by the pound, to the highest bidder. So, at best, this is a third party sale. As for the moral issue, you can't change the past, only shape the future somewhat. I would steer clear of this item myself. If I want real Ivory, I look for old piano keys or tool handles. Make sure you take a photo of the keys before you use them, and keep a record of the purchase. Use the hot pin test on the keys before you buy them also.  Jim  S


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## maxwell_smart007 (Sep 17, 2015)

Ivory is ethically a black-and-white area for me - I'm firmly against it.  An elephant was killed for its horn - possibly quite gruesomely, and potentially illegally.  

I'm all for making pretty pens - but not at the cost of funding illicit organizations and promoting poaching - so I'm quite firmly against ivory - pre-ban or not. Ethically, I could never use ivory, especially when I don't intimately know the source of it (i.e. my old piano).  

There are plenty of white materials - Ivory isn't one I'd use.

Think of it this way using an animal that elicits empathetic feelings - if dog paws were suddenly in demand as pen blanks, and you knew that dogs had their paws harvested while they were alive, and left to bleed to death, would you use it?  I highly doubt it! Why would elephants be a different story?? Don't use ivory!


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## BradG (Sep 17, 2015)

I'm along the thoughts of if no one buys it, no one will deal or hunt it. I wouldn't contribute to the problem. besides, I think those moral thoughts would pop into my head every time I looked at the pen feeling somewhat guilty for owning it.


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## maxwell_smart007 (Sep 17, 2015)

Here's an article that shows the link between ivory poaching and illicit organizations: 

Poaching a surprising source of terror funds (Opinion) - CNN.com


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## edstreet (Sep 17, 2015)

That's an opinion link. Have anything showing factual based data ?


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## tomtedesco (Sep 17, 2015)

Why does everyone assume the animal was killed just for the ivory?  It may have been killed by a local tribe for food or died of natural causes.  I am glad its no longer allowed to be imported but older ivory that was legally allowed into the US should be used.  We can't change what has already happened and perhaps the money would be put to good use by the museum.


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## keithbyrd (Sep 17, 2015)

I agree with Tomtedesco - just because it is ivory doesn't mean it was killed for the ivory!
The item that started this thread sounds a little fishy.  I have made a couple of pens from hippopotamus tusk ivory.  That is legally imported and sold in the US.  Doesn't require a COA from what I am told


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## Skie_M (Sep 17, 2015)

Side note .... not all ivory comes from elephants and wolly mammoths.   Walrus ivory has been available for a great many years, and while it's sales are also restricted, they are generally hunted for their meat.

Eskimo and other native Alaskan tribal groups can get several of these animals a year, to support their families through traditional hunting, and they recognize the high value and interest in walrus tusks.  It may be much easier to obtain, as these are hunted and killed here in the USA, so import isn't really an issue.


Quick google search ....






> *Regulations*
> 
> The walrus and narwhal are primarily hunted for their meat by the Inuit of northern Canada. This hunt is tightly regulated by the Department of Fisheries and Oceans and pilot projects are providing more local autonomy. The tusks provide a secondary resource and source of cash and are not the primary objective of the hunt. The tusks have historical significance in providing the medium for the creation of implements, toys and religious objects. Trade in this ivory and its ownership is legal within Canada.
> 
> ...




Canadian Ivory


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## low_48 (Sep 17, 2015)

I have no tolerance on this subject. Especially if you justify it because it was done a long time ago. There were a lot of atrocities, a long time ago, and time doesn't make that better. How about a pen made from a religious prisoner of war leg bone? Might be some of those left from WWII in a museum somewhere. Keep making pens from ivory, and poaching will continue. Keep making pens out of wood that have restricted logging in some countries, illegal logging will continue. I heard a report on NPR the other day about man still depleting species on earth. We don't have a fraction of the knowledge needed to understand how all the species on earth work together. If we keep using it all up he said, we will not have the understanding or time to make up for the irreparable damage. Please don't buy the ivory!


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## Skie_M (Sep 17, 2015)

low_48 said:


> I have no tolerance on this subject. Especially if you justify it because it was done a long time ago. There were a lot of atrocities, a long time ago, and time doesn't make that better. How about a pen made from a religious prisoner of war leg bone? Might be some of those left from WWII in a museum somewhere. Keep making pens from ivory, and poaching will continue. Keep making pens out of wood that have restricted logging in some countries, illegal logging will continue. I heard a report on NPR the other day about man still depleting species on earth. We don't have a fraction of the knowledge needed to understand how all the species on earth work together. If we keep using it all up he said, we will not have the understanding or time to make up for the irreparable damage. Please don't buy the ivory!







Would you mind telling us, please, exactly who is responsible for killing the mammoth that died in quicksand TEN THOUSAND YEARS AGO and left it's tusks behind that I am now getting ready to purchase?


There are sources for ivory that are NOT illegal, NOT poached, and perfectly sustainable.  I do not condone hunting an animal merely for it's bones and trophy mounting.  That's just morally and unambiguously wrong.

On the other hand, I can see a rich hunter going out for an elk who cares nothing for the meat .... he harvests the animal, and takes his trophy, and then he DONATES THE MEAT TO A LOCAL CHARITY HOUSE.  In fact, I met just such an individual last week.  He bought a pen from me.


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## Kragax (Sep 17, 2015)

I have a fair amount of ivory. Small pieces of estate ivory, and prehistoric ivory. I have some old piano key tops as well. Not sure what to do with them. Not suitable for pens.


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## maxwell_smart007 (Sep 17, 2015)

Everyone sets their own moral lines on what they're comfortable with - this is one that I'm proud to say I will not cross.  The money isn't worth it.

Sure, it's true that the animal MAY NOT have been poached - but it's equally (or I'd argue more) likely that it was.  Nothing is definite, and there's no guarantee.  

Set your own moral parameters - I know where mine are on this issue.


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## Harley2001 (Sep 17, 2015)

There was a guy saleing woolly mammoth pices in Russia there's are small chips.


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## Skie_M (Sep 17, 2015)

maxwell_smart007 said:


> Everyone sets their own moral lines on what they're comfortable with - this is one that I'm proud to say I will not cross.  The money isn't worth it.
> 
> Sure, it's true that the animal MAY NOT have been poached - but it's equally (or I'd argue more) likely that it was.  Nothing is definite, and there's no guarantee.
> 
> Set your own moral parameters - I know where mine are on this issue.



I'ld love to see the news reports that document Wolly Mammoths being poached for their tusks....


They became extinct what ... 4,000 to 10,000 years ago?

I'm absolutely certain that any Wolly Mammoth tusk pieces that come into my possession are from a carcass that died of wholly natural causes several thousand years ago.  I see no reasoning or logic behind the assessment of anybody who says that these animals were exploited for their ivory.


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## low_48 (Sep 17, 2015)

Skie_M said:


> low_48 said:
> 
> 
> > I have no tolerance on this subject. Especially if you justify it because it was done a long time ago. There were a lot of atrocities, a long time ago, and time doesn't make that better. How about a pen made from a religious prisoner of war leg bone? Might be some of those left from WWII in a museum somewhere. Keep making pens from ivory, and poaching will continue. Keep making pens out of wood that have restricted logging in some countries, illegal logging will continue. I heard a report on NPR the other day about man still depleting species on earth. We don't have a fraction of the knowledge needed to understand how all the species on earth work together. If we keep using it all up he said, we will not have the understanding or time to make up for the irreparable damage. Please don't buy the ivory!
> ...



The original poster said it was old ivory, and he knew the animal was killed for the ivory. He did bring up the idea that it might be mammoth that would be a falsely sold. I can't imagine any museum that would put ivory on the market today. Putting any ivory objects on the market continues the market. I have read where new ivory was distressed and sold as old ivory. As long as ANY ivory items stay on the market, there will be poaching in my opinion.


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## Skie_M (Sep 17, 2015)

So, you're saying that the sale of ivory that is 40,000 years old would support poaching?


I really don't get it. 


What my posts are about is quite simple ... there are other sources for ivory that are perfectly legal and don't support poachers.


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## plantman (Sep 17, 2015)

Skie_m: I think you are missing the point here. Yes, the sale of 40,000 year old Ivory does support poaching. If the Wooly Mammoth were alive today, someone would be killing it for it's Ivory !!  It doesn't matter if the Ivory is 40,000 years old or 4 hours old, if there is a demand for it, and money to be made, someone will kill for it no matter what the laws are.  Jim  S


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## low_48 (Sep 17, 2015)

Can the supply of 40,000 year old ivory support world demand for ivory objects? Of course not. So somebody, somewhere, is going to keep killing elephants till there are no more to supply the demand for any kind of ivory object.


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## chartle (Sep 17, 2015)

Going back to the OP. If it was mamoth ivory wouldn't they say it was mamoth ivory. Don't know the market but wouldn't it be more valuable than elephant ivory.


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## tomtedesco (Sep 17, 2015)

Really!!  NPR ???


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## Ed McDonnell (Sep 17, 2015)

It's not just the toll on the African Elephants.  The Ivory trade provides funding to groups committing human atrocities in Africa.  While not a peer reviewed academic journal, the National Geographic recently published some material on the subject that you may find worth contemplating.

How Killing Elephants Finances Terror in Africa | National Geographic

100,000 Elephants Killed by Poachers in Just Three Years, Landmark Analysis Finds

I would not buy or trade in ivory of any source.  Realistically this is a futile gesture and will do nothing to change the fate of the African elephant.  But it's my position.  We all have to make our own decision.

Ed


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## low_48 (Sep 17, 2015)

tomtedesco said:


> Really!!  NPR ???



I guess you would prefer Fox News? I've never watched them, but they do have the word news in the title.


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## Falcon1220 (Sep 18, 2015)

Kragax said:


> I have a fair amount of ivory. Small pieces of estate ivory, and prehistoric ivory. I have some old piano key tops as well. Not sure what to do with them. Not suitable for pens.



mail it all over to me. If you have no use for it, I have :biggrin:


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## Kragax (Sep 18, 2015)

chartle said:


> Going back to the OP. If it was mamoth ivory wouldn't they say it was mamoth ivory. Don't know the market but wouldn't it be more valuable than elephant ivory.



No mamoth ivory is easy to get but the color is different.


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## Sabaharr (Sep 20, 2015)

Relax everyone. I have decided to pass on the purchase. $100 for a pen blank that I would probably blow out anyway is a bit steep. Besides the more I think about it the more it feels like it would be contributing to the demand problem causing poaching. On the other hand I have no problem with the mammoth ivory since it was not poached and is unlikely that any will be any time in the future (since there aren't any more). Russia exports tons of this annually from the frozen tundra areas. 

Now off to the grocery store for a T-bone where no animals were harmed to produce it. (sorry, I couldn't resist)


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## Skie_M (Sep 20, 2015)

Kragax said:


> chartle said:
> 
> 
> > Going back to the OP. If it was mamoth ivory wouldn't they say it was mamoth ivory. Don't know the market but wouldn't it be more valuable than elephant ivory.
> ...



Actually, the color of mammoth ivory can be very similar to elephant ivory ... the major telling difference is actually the internal grain structure and how it meets itself at certain angles.


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## Smitty37 (Sep 20, 2015)

maxwell_smart007 said:


> Ivory is ethically a black-and-white area for me - I'm firmly against it.  An elephant was killed for its horn - possibly quite gruesomely, and potentially illegally.
> 
> I'm all for making pretty pens - but not at the cost of funding illicit organizations and promoting poaching - so I'm quite firmly against ivory - pre-ban or not. Ethically, I could never use ivory, especially when I don't intimately know the source of it (i.e. my old piano).
> 
> ...


Elephants, like humans, do not live forever.  If left alone, every elephant will die regardless of what is done with the ivory from it's tusks after it dies.  When investigated you find the truth is than many if not most elephants that are killed are NOT killed simply to harvest their tusks but because there is competition for land between humans and elephants,  The larger the human population in parts of African and other places elephants are found, the greater this competition will become.  Some elephants are killed to help maintain the health and well being of the entire herd within the bounds of some rather large areas set aside for them. Shall we start killing humans to make room for the elephants to expand that range?  Poaching is a problem, it's a problem because with very little legal sale of ivory a black market exists - it is absurd to argue, as is often done, that legal sale of ivory somehow supports the black market.  Personally, since elephants are not native to Delaware, I would not kill an elephant for any reason (even if I had the means to kill one which I probably don't).  But, since elephants eat a lot, if I were in a town, village or city where elephants presented a danger to crops needed to feed the population I might well have a different attitude.


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## its_only_me (Sep 20, 2015)

Smitty37 said:


> maxwell_smart007 said:
> 
> 
> > Ivory is ethically a black-and-white area for me - I'm firmly against it.  An elephant was killed for its horn - possibly quite gruesomely, and potentially illegally.
> ...



It's good to see that someone has thought it through, but I am not surprised it is you smitty. The main markets for elephant ivory are china and japan. Those two countries could be blackballed until they played ball (that might even result in home made pen kits instead of chinese one). If all sales of Ivory were to be made through a central body then it could be managed properly, South Africa and others maintain their Elephant stocks and yet they have to suffer huge financial loss, because world leaders won't tackle the real culprits china and japan.


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## low_48 (Sep 20, 2015)

Smitty37 said:


> maxwell_smart007 said:
> 
> 
> > Ivory is ethically a black-and-white area for me - I'm firmly against it.  An elephant was killed for its horn - possibly quite gruesomely, and potentially illegally.
> ...



Could you please provide a link to the study that shows the higher percentage of elephants are killed overland disputes? I'd like to read it.


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## Smitty37 (Sep 20, 2015)

low_48 said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > maxwell_smart007 said:
> ...


 No I will not.  My view of this matter is based on a lot of reading in a lot of different places over a long period of time.  That is why I said "when investigated...." Go investigate it. EDIT I.  I will give you this hint...check into the "elephant problem" in Kruger National Park in South Africa...that will get you started.


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## maxwell_smart007 (Sep 20, 2015)

My reading supports the complete opposite viewpoint - elephants are often killed by poaching, and there is a significant black market trade in ivory.  

Yes, elephants can be a nuisance when human areas and elephant grazing grounds overlap - but to say that demand does not lead to poaching, however, is absurd, as is ignoring the facts. 

I'll check out of this debate, however, as it's clear that there's nothing to be gained from continuing to point out how illegal harvest of animals in Africa is frequent and rampant, and funds terrorism.


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## Smitty37 (Sep 20, 2015)

maxwell_smart007 said:


> My reading supports the complete opposite viewpoint - elephants are often killed by poaching, and there is a significant black market trade in ivory.
> 
> Yes, elephants can be a nuisance when human areas and elephant grazing grounds overlap - *but to say that demand does not lead to poaching, however, is absurd, as is ignoring the facts. *
> 
> I'll check out of this debate, however, as it's clear that there's nothing to be gained from continuing to point out how illegal harvest of animals in Africa is frequent and rampant, and funds terrorism.


 I did not say that demand does not lead to poaching - certainly unmet demand will lead to poaching - I said that legal sales do not increase demand.  A black market in anything only exists where there is no legitimate market or where the legitimate market is more expensive than the black market   Those trying to save the elephants propose doing on the ivory market exactly the opposite of what is proposed on the pot market.  In the pot market place they tell us we'll get rid of those making illegal profits by making pot legal...in the ivory markets they say exactly the opposite.


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## Skie_M (Oct 31, 2015)

Skie_M said:


> Canadian Ivory



Got back to me concerning my inquiry over obtaining mammoth ivory...  This was several weeks ago, and I forgot to post their response here at that time.





			
				me said:
			
		

> Hello, my name is Gregory Halye.  I am a resident of the United States, and have recently had the pleasure of browsing through your site.  I was interested in obtaining some Walrus Ivory for the purpose of penmaking, but it seems that I cannot get it through your company due to the restrictions in place.
> 
> 
> However, I was delighted to find that Wolly Mammoth Ivory has no such restrictions ...  I also noted that you have slabs of this material available.
> ...





			
				CanadianIvory.com said:
			
		

> Ron Gray <graysinn@telus.net>
> 
> Sep 23
> 
> ...



I've found that I can get small sections of semi-petrified walrus tusk (large enough for single pen blanks) for around 60 - 90 dollars...  Perhaps large enough for 2 pens, in some cases, through certain Alaskan outfits.  I also see lots of massive mammoth tusks and sections for sale there too.  I'm very tempted to see if I can pick up a 5-lb section or so and cut it up for blanks to re-sell.


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## jttheclockman (Oct 31, 2015)

Skie_M said:


> Skie_M said:
> 
> 
> > Canadian Ivory
> ...




My question to you is why???????????????? There are so many more ways to get interesting blanks that you have not even thought about yet. learn to do some segmenting and I mean real segmenting. learn to do some casting of items in resin. Learn to do some metal work. Work with man-made objects that can be made into interesting blanks. Why focus on such a small controversial area of the pen making hobby?? 

This request is not to rehash the beliefs of one another but to point out that there is so much more you have not even tried yet. It is not to discourage you from your desires but think it through. You may run into people that do  not agree with your stand on the subject and cause a disturbance at a show you are at.  Is it worth it? Lets face it if you sell you better make sure you have the proper paper work and be as forth coming as possible. Advertise the pens and they better be a truthful advertisement. Good luck in whatever you do but think it through.


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## TonyW (Oct 31, 2015)

With imitation ivory being so good now, and affordable, why risk buying something so contentious and so risky as "old" ivory? Having read comments by an old ivory turner (now dead alas) in one of the UK turning magazines about how good the imitation / synthetic stuff actually is, it seems like a 'no brainer' to me not to use it, unless someone wants the dubious qudos of being able to say that they too are ivory turners that is!

TonyW


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## BKelley (Oct 31, 2015)

Boy, this really opened up a can of worms!  I'll have to put my two cents worth in.  First of all, I am in favor of the present ban on ivory.  The elephant is endangered and should not be killed to obtain its tusk.  This animal needs to be protected.  Absolutley no post ban ivory allowed in the U.S.    On the flip side of the coin, proven pre ban ivory should have no restrictions period.  Think of all the art objects made of ivory before the ban, plus the table ware handles, tool handles, knife handles, and hunting trophies.  Men have made items of ivory for hundreds of years before the ban and these should be bought, sold or traded without ramifications.

Ben


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## Smitty37 (Oct 31, 2015)

If you do some checking, *I think you will find very little support for the legal sale of ivory ban in places where elephants are common in the wild. * I still maintain that elephants are in more danger because of habitat loss than from ivory poaching.  Elephants are very destructive feeders, and they eat a lot -- 100 years ago there was not much competition with humans for space in Africa, now there is.  Humans have made a lot of progress in human survival in Africa (most of us would say that's good) we have greatly increased the survival rate of babies born there and have made great advances in controlling some of the diseases that ones shortened life spans.  We continue spending a lot of money and energy to conquer other diseases that plague Africa and will be increasing the populations even more.  One of the consequences of that is the humans require more room leaving less for animals including elephants....and elephants need a lot of space.  So make your choice you can have more humans or more elephants in sub-Saharan Africa but not both.  Personally I will opt for humans.


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## Curly (Oct 31, 2015)

Skie_M said:


> I also see lots of massive mammoth tusks and sections for sale there too.  I'm very tempted to see if I can pick up a 5-lb section or so and cut it up for blanks to re-sell.



As those pieces of Mammoth Ivory dry over time they will crack and delaminate. That's why the other supplier only has 1/4" thick pieces. They are the layers split from the fossilized tusk. You can take the 1/4" pieces and cut them into thin slices and glue them to a tube like Abalone blanks are done or glue small chips and flakes to a tube and cast them in dark resin. Look at the threads and posts by Alejanders, a Russian, that played a lot with the stuff.

To Smitty37. 
For environmental and not racist reasons, I'll take the Elephants every time.


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## Skie_M (Oct 31, 2015)

Curly said:


> Skie_M said:
> 
> 
> > I also see lots of massive mammoth tusks and sections for sale there too.  I'm very tempted to see if I can pick up a 5-lb section or so and cut it up for blanks to re-sell.
> ...



They should be vacuum stabilized like any other bone or ivory, I understand...   This is another reason why I'm a great fan of always sealing my antler pens with a decent coat of CA.


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## Smitty37 (Oct 31, 2015)

Skie_M said:


> Curly said:
> 
> 
> > Skie_M said:
> ...


OK -- which people should we start killing first?  And should we go beyond sub-Saharan Africa?  BTW if you have ever seen pictures taken after a family of elephants has gone through you might question the "environmental" reasons.  Elephants need a lot of room because they make a real mess where ever they go.


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