# cracked Casin



## Russell Eaton (Nov 17, 2010)

I made a pen out of Casin. I looked at it a few weeks later and it has cracked about half a inch long on the cap. I was wondering if anybody else has had this happen? Thanks, Russell


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## jttheclockman (Nov 17, 2010)

Hopefully you get some answers because I am about to turn some of this for the first time myself. I would like to know some do's and don'ts??  Did you have to paint the tubes and the inside of the blank???  i will be putting on a cambridge. Thanks.


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## ed4copies (Nov 17, 2010)

I have sent Russell a PM, will comment after he replies.


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## OKLAHOMAN (Nov 17, 2010)

I've made a quite a few and also sold most of them and have had none crack to my knowledge. Have taken them from the deserts of New Mexico to the humidity of the gulf coast which usually will make some crack with the change of humidities and heat. What were the circumstance that they cracked in IE: left in a hot car, did they crack from the edges down, were the tubes well cleaned out of all glue? Casien has been used on pens from the 1930's and Conway Stewart still make a pen out of it.


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## RAdams (Nov 17, 2010)

I got a casein pen from a private pen trade i did with a fellow IAP member. It cracked on the cap as well. Wish i could help you with information on where the crack came from, but i have no idea. I have heard that casein is a material that is suseptable (sp) to cracks, especially from heat buildup, ie. drilling / sanding. If you find a repair, Please let me know! I would love to fix the cap on my casein pen.


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## Russell Eaton (Nov 17, 2010)

I sent a picture of the pen to Ed. I noticed the crack when I had taken the pen to show a fellow IAP member. It was in my truck on a cool day so heat buildup was not a problem. At least I now know I am not the only one. I am sure no glue was in the tube, I plug the ends with dental wax.


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## aggromere (Nov 17, 2010)

I have turned a few from Casien just recently.  The oldest is about 10 days.  No cracks yet.  I used a very sharp skew turning it and it turned easier than some PR's i have used.  I did not paint the tubes, it is not transparent.   I finished just like I would any acrylic.


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## ed4copies (Nov 17, 2010)

After seeing the picture, there are several possibilities.

If I had to limit my guesses to one, I would say the top was a little "jagged" and the crack starts at the "point" of one of the "jags".  This is not meant as criticism of the way it was turned, and there is every possibility it could be a coincidence.

I will be writing instructions for all the kits we sell, as well as the specialty materials like casein.  Like any material, it MAY crack after turning---but I think I can give many hints on how to avoid this.  So consider this a FWIW.


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## Gary Max (Nov 17, 2010)

Let's try this------any blank, bought from anywhere can crack.
We could sit here and list the many reason this could happen.


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## PenMan1 (Nov 17, 2010)

Just a thought......I make a LOT of casein. When I first started, I used a pen mill to square the tubes. Even though there was no visable cracks, checks, splits on the finished pens, several of those casein pens eventually split.

I found that casein really prefers to have itself squared with a sander of some sort....Just my 2 cents worth. I've had no issues since I changed to a wet sanding jig.


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## bitshird (Nov 17, 2010)

I've done 3 pens out of Casein, one Elegant Beauty, and 2 Imperials, Ernie Boraga has the EB and I just turned the Rollerball mate for the Imperial Fountain pen, the fountain pen and the one I sent Ernie were done about 2 or three months ago, wile I'm not sure about the EB I just looked at the Fountain pen and it's still pristine (holding legs crossed for luck) I'm not saying why I made an Elegant Beauty out of a 16.00 pen blank, but I do have the other half sitting in plain view as a reminder!! Oh and I cheated, I faced the blanks on my metal lathe.


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## Russell Eaton (Nov 17, 2010)

Thanks Ed and Andy. All help is appreciated.   Russell


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## Russell Eaton (Nov 17, 2010)

I will face my next one with my chuck. I just need to get past the smell....lol. I think I like angler better.


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## ed4copies (Nov 17, 2010)

PenMan1 said:


> Just a thought......I make a LOT of casein. When I first started, I used a pen mill to square the tubes. Even though there was no visable cracks, checks, splits on the finished pens, several of those casein pens eventually split.
> 
> I found that casein really prefers to have itself squared with a sander of some sort....Just my 2 cents worth. I've had no issues since I changed to a wet sanding jig.



I have recently changed to doing this to all the pens I turn (realize that I don't turn often and they are usually not "routine" materials).  The result is a nicer fit, particularly on the two ends of the cap (where the material CAN be VERY thin).

Russell will get a "Mulligan"!!  Hope this time we can assist him in getting a better result!!!


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## EBorraga (Nov 17, 2010)

Ken, I just looked at the one you sent me. It has a nice crack in it. You should send me a new piece so I can repair it:biggrin:. Just kidding, it looks perfect.


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## jeff (Nov 17, 2010)

Gary Max said:


> Let's try this------any blank, bought from anywhere can crack.
> We could sit here and list the many reason this could happen.



I think the original poster was simply looking for some reason that might be specific to the material. Sure, it might be one of those "any blank can crack" situations, but maybe there's something which can be done when working with this material to minimize the chance of cracking.


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## OKLAHOMAN (Nov 17, 2010)

Just went and checked my inventory of casein pens, one Majestic and one Jr. Statesman both about 6-7 months old and both fine. I use a carbide tipped 4 wing mill to square. Always sand or mill to the brass and then be sure to clean the inside of the brass. If at any time your shy of the brass when milled the pressure is on the blank when assembly and might not crack while assembled but will sometime down the road. Also your mill needs to be SHARP....I'm lucky I just call Paul in OKC ask him if he wants to go to lunch and :wink:.......by the way could you sharpen a few mills for me:biggrin:


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## ed4copies (Nov 17, 2010)

I believe you hit it Roy!   Paul could make a living on MY pen mills.  And, I suspect I am not alone.

But I DO LIKE the sanding method, as well.  

Your point about the material taking pressure is certainly a consideration, too.  

So many little nuances to what looks like such a simple process!!!


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## workinforwood (Nov 18, 2010)

I'm going to disagree with this theory about exposed casein.  You go to a pen show and look at the factory casein pens and show me where the tubes are in those that stop them from  cracking?  The material thickness used on those pens is less too!  They are not having issues with cracking pens.  Something happened to the pen in question. Might have cracked during milling, especially if the blank was left extra long which would require the mill to work harder to reach the tubes, which means more heat generated on the material and the tube. If the pen is milled correctly...just taking off a 1/16 or so in material to square the ends..then milling should not cause any issues.  It's a tough case to solve.


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## jttheclockman (Nov 18, 2010)

Thanks all for the suggestions on using this material. I will give it a try. 

I do need to get another carbide mill. Who is Paul and what is the link if you don't mind???


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## OKLAHOMAN (Nov 18, 2010)

jttheclockman said:


> Thanks all for the suggestions on using this material. I will give it a try.
> 
> I do need to get another carbide mill. Who is Paul and what is the link if you don't mind???


 
John, Paul is Paul Huffman member "Paul in OKC" the same Paul that makes the pen blank vise, he also  sharpens mills and drill bits. If your needing a carbide mill contact member "Nolan".


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## jttheclockman (Nov 18, 2010)

OKLAHOMAN said:


> jttheclockman said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks all for the suggestions on using this material. I will give it a try.
> ...


 

That is who I bought my first one off. I thought Paul was making them too. Thanks.


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## Geophyrd (Dec 11, 2010)

*I'll jump into the conversation*

I've turned two pens in Casein and both cracked in the cap.  Ruined some expensive pens too.  The crack went top of the cap to bottom, not along the lines in the material (in case that had something to do with it) and neither was cracked when the pens were finished.  There was no chipout at top or bottom of the crack.

I think the material expands and contracts and when it does, around the tube, if there is too much pressure (to much contraction) it cracks.  I'm upset.  I turned a 22c Majestic Junior and Majestic pen and both are write-offs.


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## jttheclockman (Dec 12, 2010)

Well you can add my name to the casein crack club. I made a Cambridge hybrid and the lower blank developed a crack. Now I know there was no material build up in the tube because I cleaned it and also reamed the edges so that when pressing the parts there was no added resistance. Come back the next day and my crack is a u shape so I am assuming it was done when milling. It probably was so minute but when putting the fittings on it expanded it. Will try again. This is actually the very first blank that ever crack for any reason. Been lucky I guess.


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## workinforwood (Dec 12, 2010)

Put me down for several Casein pens and zero cracks.  For those that did get a crack for whatever reason...the kit is not broke, just the blank.  Get some punches and salvage the kit.


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## jttheclockman (Dec 12, 2010)

workinforwood said:


> Put me down for several Casein pens and zero cracks. For those that did get a crack for whatever reason...the kit is not broke, just the blank. Get some punches and salvage the kit.


 

This is what I did and will try again.


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## wizard (Dec 12, 2010)

I still consider myself a newbie but in my humble opinion..I have another thought similar to Jeff Powell's. Casein is a milk protein and while turning it is sensitive to heat. Casein becomes more brittle when the temperature rises because the protein "crosslinks" and "contracts" removing the small amount of moisture left in the protein. On the several pieces of casein that I have done, I have only one to crack. It is the only one I sanded with dry sandpaper at higher speeds with greater heat generation through friction. Based on what I know about the chemical properties of casein, I sanded the rest of them lightly at lower speeds and with cooling by using wet sandpaper. None of those cracked. My two cents worth....Regards, Doc


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## Geophyrd (Dec 25, 2010)

*Casein II - the sequel, son of part I*

OK, so another cracked Casein pen.  This time, it cracked while on the lathe.  Was taking light passes, drilled slightly larger than required but when I started sanding, I saw the beginnings of a crack. Started getting out the CA glue for repair and watched it crack the length of the pen cap.  Another writeoff.  Sigh...


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## its_virgil (Dec 25, 2010)

Well actually the pens aren't ruined, just the casein material is ruined. The pens can be disassembled and the casein replaced with a more stable material. But, I do know what you mean. While casein looks great and makes a beautiful pen, there are better,more stable and just as magnificant materials with which to make pens. The casein debate will continue along with buffalo horn, ivory, ebony and a few other crack prone materials. We continue to use these materials then start the discussion all over again...."has anyone used xxx  and has it cracked?  Good luck to all who continue to use these materials. I wish you a crack free new year.:biggrin::biggrin:
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.
Do a good turn daily!
Don



Geophyrd said:


> I've turned two pens in Casein and both cracked in the cap.  Ruined some expensive pens too.


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## bitshird (Dec 25, 2010)

Well my post of a few weeks ago stands corrected, the first Imperial with Casein I turned has developed a very minute crack just under the cap finial, it was fine 2 weeks ago, it was turned about 5 months ago, has always been kept at a pretty constant temperature, and like JT I chamfer the insides of my tubes, also the crack seems to be going at a 45degree angle, not parallel with the lines, I sure am glad I hadn't sold it. Now the poor thing is going to have to wear some nasty old HRB. kind of a bummer since the hardware is Blk TI!!!


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## wiset1 (Dec 27, 2010)

A little late to the topic; however, I was wondering if this was True Casin or the Alternate Casein found on Exotics?  Just wondering if this is the same issue for both products or just one product line.  Thank you kindly


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## BKelley (Dec 27, 2010)

Russell,

I have used the casein on a couple of Navigators and have had no problems.  I used a
little Grizzly 7x12 metal lathe and was careful not to build up too much heat.  Also squared ends up with lathe.  I guess that by yours cracking, it imitates geniune ivory maybe too much.

Ben


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## Russell Eaton (Dec 27, 2010)

To answer a couple of questions. It was real Casin. The crack appeared several weeks after the pen had been turned. I thought the crack had stopped, but it actually turned and went both ways around the pen. I am at a loss. It was a real beautiful pen and I will turn the bank off the tube and return another material on it. Sorry to stir the puddin'. Hope everybody has a awesome new year. Russell


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## ed4copies (Dec 27, 2010)

Russell,

You are not "stirrin the pudding"!!!!

If casein has a tendency to crack, we want to know that.
If we ignore it, we cannot control it.  Hopefully this type of conversation helps those who HAVE casein pens avoid having them crack.

I am making one in my shop now--to propose a method of allowing more movement.  

As always, we use this forum to find more IDEAS!!!  NOT to "Hide problems".

THANKS!!!!


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## Russell Eaton (Dec 27, 2010)

For the record the lower bib end of the pen look perfect. I wonder if it might be the thin upper tube combined with the thick CA.


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## beck3906 (Dec 27, 2010)

Hiding problems is what the clip is for, right?


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## BKelley (Dec 27, 2010)

Just a thought, do any of the adhesives swell as they cure?  If they swell even a thousandth of an inch it might make a difference.  Maybe a sloppy hole would be better than a close fit.  Like I said, just a thought


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