# I'm Really Bad at Finishing



## pgfitzgerald (Aug 9, 2013)

It's been a few years since I turned any pens. I've been back at it for a few weeks and I now remember some of why I ended up putting the hobby away for so long.

I'm terrible at finishing.

This is so frustrating for me because I've spent hours upon hours reading about different techniques and hours upon more hours out in the shop trying, retrying, testing, and refining and I don't feel like I'm any better now than I was when I first got started.

Out of everything I've tried, I've had the best results using Les Elm's wipe on poly technique. It was time consuming, and I never really got the hang of it. I often burned through the finish while using the micro mesh. I liked not finishing with the bushings installed and I was always pleased with the results when I managed to get through the process without screwing up. Because of the time involved, I started looking at other options.

The next best results came from Enduro. It wasn't as time consuming as the wipe-on poly and the results were almost as good for me, but I never really got the hang of it either. I used to get it from Ernie at Bear Tooth Woods and used his instructions. It worked pretty well, but finishing on the lathe with the bushings installed sucked. It sounds like this pretty much got replaced with Wood Turners Finish anyway.

I experimented for a good while with CA. I really disliked just about everything to do with it. From the fumes, to the finish sticking to the bushings, the blushing, the cracking, the mess, the plastic look, etc. Maybe I'm just a clumsy, fat fingered, doofus, but I had nothing but trouble and finally just gave up. I don't really fancy giving it another shot.

Most recently, I started working with Wood Turners Finish. I read a bunch about it, watched the videos by General Finishes and Ed Brown, and went to it. It reminds me a lot of Enduro. I've had trouble getting it to build up and would routinely go right through it with micro mesh. I also had trouble with those dang bushings like Enduro and CA. Otherwise, it wasn't too bad.

I'm considering continuing experimenting with Wood Turners Finish, but I'm also interested in trying Les Elm's Poly Dipping method.

Overall I'd say I'm just really frustrated. I'd love nothing more than to start getting some consistent positive results. I don't expect my finishes to be show quality day one, but I do want to be able to give someone a pen without being embarrassed about the finish.

Any advice or constructive criticism would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

Edit: It just dawned on me that I've never tried spraying/air-brushing. I don't have the equipment, but I wouldn't be opposed to giving it a shot.


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## Tieflyer (Aug 9, 2013)

Hey Paul, I'm a clumsy, fat fingered doofus and think maybe you should take a step back and come at this from a slightly different angle. I know traditional finishing of sanding sealer and friction polish isn't as stunning as CA etc but learning that technique has helped me understand the finishing process enough to be able to get good results from other finishes. Don't fight the learning curve, work with it.


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## pgfitzgerald (Aug 9, 2013)

Tieflyer said:


> Hey Paul, I'm a clumsy, fat fingered doofus and think maybe you should take a step back and come at this from a slightly different angle. I know traditional finishing of sanding sealer and friction polish isn't as stunning as CA etc but learning that technique has helped me understand the finishing process enough to be able to get good results from other finishes. Don't fight the learning curve, work with it.



Thanks.  Have any product recommendations? All I have on hand is an old bottle of Mylands Friction Polish.


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## ossaguy (Aug 9, 2013)

Hi Paul,

I know that you don't like ca,but it really isn't that bad to work with once you fnd the method that works for you.

The fumes problem can be fixed by having a dust collector hood right at the blank that pulls and blows the fumes away from you,and a box fan behind you.(I do it outside,with the wind at my back,and the hood pulling the fumey air away.)

Until I swiched to TBC,I had a hard time too.It's the way to go,since you don't have the stcking bushing problem to deal with,and no out of round conditions that cause sanding thru the finish.

Using your faceplate as a sander with the transfer punch in the drill chuck that is in the tailstock to clean up the ends before assemnly solves the white ca lifting-on-the-end problem when pressing together.

Stopping at the middle MM pad will make it less shiny for a less "plastic" feel,also.

Doing these things helped me get a nice,consistant ca finish,that takes the hassles out of it.Hate to see you give it up,as it works so well.It's so durable and long lasting.

Take care,
          Steve


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## The Penguin (Aug 9, 2013)

Have you tried Doctor's Woodshop? They have a walnut oil based friction polish with shellac:

http://doctorswoodshop.com/Products/WalnutOilCarnaubaWaxShellacWoodturningFinis.aspx


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## plano_harry (Aug 9, 2013)

Two ideas - 
(1) if you haven't tried this: my buddy _mhbeauford_ convinced me to give up thicker stuff and go 16-20 coats of thin CA with a paper towel.  The thin doesn't form ridges as much as medium or thick and goes on faster.  One pass down and back per coat.  A dust collector will handle the smell, a nitrile glove with the smallest pen part bag over your index finger will solve the finger sticking problem.  CA won't stick to polyethylene.  No ridges means less sanding.  I have never sanded through 20 coats of thin CA so that should not be a problem.  I do recommend wet sanding so you don't heat the CA which melts easily.  The last problem - sticking bushings is solved with delrin bushing eliminators (cones)  _JohnnyCNC_ made mine.

(2) if you want to go airbrush, I talked with a guy who made himself a rotator system that would slowly turn one or many blanks while he sprayed lacquer (which smells worse than CA IMHO) using a slow motor with some o-ring or rubber band drive belts

Hope something works for you. 

Harry


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## Tieflyer (Aug 9, 2013)

Paul, you have half of my favorite system already. I like to turn, sand to 600 then run through all the micro mesh pads. Apply 3 coats of mylands cellulose sanding sealer, drying in between. quickly run through the MM pads again and apply four coats of friction polish. Tweak till you're content!  This gives a good looking finish...not overly durable but I like it.


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## Dan Masshardt (Aug 9, 2013)

For me CA is the best, but ill continue periodically experimenting with other finishes - wood turners, probably doctors eventually etc. 

Certain woods take friction polish better than others.  If you are  looking for a few pens to give as gifts, pick up some cocobolo blanks.  It's beautiful and looks nice just polished with some shelawax type friction finish.  

Also, a method that I think is super easy is to rub ca out with blo on each application.  It's not high build but a nice protected satin finish.  No micro mesh necessary.  

The bushing issue need no longer be an issue.  Either finish right on centers or get / make some Delrin bushings.


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## SerenityWoodWorks (Aug 9, 2013)

You love making pens but finishing a wood pen isnt working for you...ok I hear you...Use another type of blank, You still get to make pens, they are still beautiful and end result is..you have a pen....Next...hook up with a person close to you, learn, watch, ect...soon you will be doing wood pens and any finish you want...this isnt rocket science, unless your Brad, but then again hes a freak of nature.


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## edstreet (Aug 9, 2013)

pgfitzgerald said:


> It's been a few years since I turned any pens. I've been back at it for a few weeks and I now remember some of why I ended up putting the hobby away for so long.
> 
> I'm terrible at finishing.
> 
> ...




Interesting.

I have some really good news for you then that should turn things around greatly for you. 

First off from everything you wrote it sounds like you are making things way more complicated than they should be.  For this reason and your frustration level I would urge you to get some real stabilized wood and use that.  

Why stabilized wood?  Simple, because there is really no finishing to it. you just sand it to shape then sand it down to about 800 grit and with a light buff or burnish you are done done and done.  

CA glue comes in odorless for several reasons one is the smell, one is allergies/sensitivity and the other is for use on foam.

Some other materials that takes hardly any work to finish them is items like olivewood.  Sand it down to 800 and a light buff/burnish with something like tung oil or BLO and you are done done and done.  I have a good supply of exhibition grade BOW so if you want I will send you some to try.


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## randyrls (Aug 9, 2013)

pgfitzgerald said:


> I experimented for a good while with CA. I really disliked just about everything to do with it. From the fumes, to the finish sticking to the bushings, the blushing, the cracking, the mess, the plastic look, etc.




Paul;  I had a terrible time with CA, but now I can finish a pen in about 20 minutes.  I still wait and let the CA cure overnight.  Leave CA finished pen in the open for several days to allow the CA to "outgas".  Don't cap the pen.

With oily woods, wipe the blank with denatured alcohol before applying CA. 

Start with thin CA.  Apply about 5 coats.  Done.  No sanding.

I have a set of cone bushings made of delrin that I use for CA finishing.  Wax the cones and your mandrel to keep the CA from bonding pieces you don't want bonded!  DAMHIKT!

I don't like the "plastic" look and feel on a fine wood surface either.  I just hit the blank with 0000 steel wool as a final step.  It gives a nice satin finish to the blank, and the feel is more like wood.  The CA still protects the surface from skin oils and dirt, but the pen looks fantastic and appears to have no finish at all!


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## pgfitzgerald (Aug 29, 2013)

Thanks for all the replies. I appreciate all the CA tips, but that just isn't a direction I'm ready to head back down just yet.

I really feel like I'm missing something very basic and trial and error isn't getting me any farther down the road.

Let me run through what I did on this last pen and see if y'all can spot what I'm doing wrong.


I turned a cigar pen between centers using JohnnyCNC's bushings. The barrels looked beautiful.
I sanded through 150,240,320,400, and 600 grit cloth-backed sandpaper at 1240 rpm, first with the lathe on and then with the lathe off going lengthwise.
I went through all MM grits with the lathe at 1240 rpm. The barrels looked pretty good. I didn't notice any scratches, so I thought it was okay to move forward with finishing.
I took the blanks off the steel bushings and put them back on the lathe with no bushings, bringing the tail stock in just snug enough between the brass tubes to allow the dead center to spin the blank.
I took a viva select-a-size paper towel and quartered it. Then took one of the pieces and folded into thirds. I used this to apply the finish.
I applied a generous amount of WTF on the paper towel, enough to saturate it.
With the lathe at 1240 rpm, I applied one coat going back and fourth a couple of times.
I applied another coat every 1m for 10m for a total of 10 coats.
I left the barrels overnight.
I gave it a quick very light once over with 600 grit sandpaper to even it out.
I went through the same finishing process for another 10 coats and left it overnight.
The finish at that point looked pretty good, but had a couple problems.
There were humps of finish at the ends of the blanks that needed to be leveled off.
There were surface imperfections and unevenness.

I quickly and lightly used 600 grit paper to even things out.
I then went back through the MM grits. Once done, it was clear there was still sanding marks.
Thinking I wasn't using enough pressure, I went back through the MM grits again a tiny bit more agressive.
The sanding marks were pretty much gone, but the blank was splotchy and dull where the different areas of grain were. Kinda looked like the wood soaked up the finish more in certain areas.
At that point, I realized the finish was gone and I was back to bare wood. So I went through 20 coats and didn't even realize it.

So, some basic questions.


What lathe speed should I be using?
Am I sanding too much? Not enough? Too lightly? Too heavily?
Am I not putting enough finish on the paper towel?
How often should I reload the paper towel?
Should I use something other than a paper towel?
Am I not waiting long enough between coats?
Am I going back and forth too many times?
Am I applying too much pressure while finishing?
Should I be sanding between coats?

I've done every variation of these I can think of, but I'm having trouble even figuring out what's working and what's not.

Finishing is what made me quit turning a few years ago. I really want to figure out what I'm doing wrong because I love the turning part.


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## The Penguin (Aug 29, 2013)

WTF is water based and will raise your grain.


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## Jim Burr (Aug 29, 2013)

Some thoughts...
Thin CA for the first coat to "seal" stuff off. 
Med CA after that to build. 
Speed is variable since Joe A uses 800 and Joe Z uses 3200...find what you like.
You are going to have some ridges.
You have a good 5-8 seconds with paper towel to work each coat. 
You will sand some off.
Try building 10 coats of medium and a quick wet-sand and see what you get. 
Try what everyone else says first! 
Stay safe and blessed!


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## Jim Burr (Aug 29, 2013)

I've shot WTF via airbrush on blanks and it takes forever! To expand on that having read the recent laser-cut kit spam...
In the fashion that worked for me, I shot WTF using my method and my equipment. 
I found it less than satisfactory and preferred the paper towel for application in my situation and my experience and my temperature and humidity in my shop and that is way to many "my's" for "my" taste. 
I have a really good airbrush, but little experience. Before med school started, gave it a lash. Nice even coats, but dried so quick it's hard to keep up. IN MY OPINION...an airbrush may not dispense enough volume for an effective finish vehicle for WTF. Someone else may have a different experience!!!! Good for you!!! Now that school is in full force...I won't be trying that again for a good long while.


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## Dan Masshardt (Aug 29, 2013)

Jim Burr said:


> Some thoughts...
> Thin CA for the first coat to "seal" stuff off.
> Med CA after that to build.
> Speed is variable since Joe A uses 800 and Joe Z uses 3200...find what you like.
> ...



Ca is the best for me, but Paul has expressed that he's not interested in it, so I'm not for going to keep bringing it up. 

When I read some of these alternate finishing methods, I think, ca finishing is so much quicker for me. 

I do like that's there's more and more choices.  

Ed4copies has a YouTube tutorial on wood turners finish with a sponge to apply.  

Doctors Workshop finish has gained some popularity as well.


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## pgfitzgerald (Aug 29, 2013)

I've watched Pen finishing.mp4 - YouTube many times, took notes, and attempted to apply the same techniques that were displayed in the video. The only thing I haven't done is use a sponge. I have some small foam brushes that I'll try next since they're pretty close to what is shown on the video.

But there are still some fundamental questions I have that everyone seems to gloss over on the videos, forum posts, and articles I've read. It seems like everyone assumes the viewers/readers already have a good working knowledge of finishing and skip most of basic information I think I'm missing.

Ed didn't mention things like lathe speed, how much finish he's putting on the sponge, how often he's reloading the sponge, how much pressure he's using, etc. I really must need a "pen finishing for dummies" guide.


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## Dan Masshardt (Aug 29, 2013)

Send Ed a private message or give him a call. I'm confident he'd be glad to answer your questions about the video. 

I experimented a little with wtf and a sponge.  Pens came out decent but I like a high gloss myself.


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## jmm666 (Aug 29, 2013)

It sounds like one of your problems is sanding through the finish with the micro mesh.
I've done the same thing and adjusted my process. The blank should be smooth before you use the micro mesh. It's just a polishing step.
Two things that work for me:
1. Light pressure. If you press too hard you will burn through the thin layers of finish, no matter what you used.
2. Time. If you apply the pad too long, you will still burn though even with light pressure. Count to 3 and then move on to the next pad and they must be wet. 

Keep trying.


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## edstreet (Aug 30, 2013)

pgfitzgerald said:


> I've watched Pen finishing.mp4 - YouTube many times, took notes, and attempted to apply the same techniques that were displayed in the video. The only thing I haven't done is use a sponge. I have some small foam brushes that I'll try next since they're pretty close to what is shown on the video.
> 
> But there are still some fundamental questions I have that everyone seems to gloss over on the videos, forum posts, and articles I've read. It seems like everyone assumes the viewers/readers already have a good working knowledge of finishing and skip most of basic information I think I'm missing.
> 
> Ed didn't mention things like lathe speed, how much finish he's putting on the sponge, how often he's reloading the sponge, how much pressure he's using, etc. I really must need a "pen finishing for dummies" guide.




I THINK I might be able to answer this one 

the answer is 'depends on the blank material'  Some would require a faster speed, some a softer touch and some soaks up more than others.  Knowing that I say do it by feel. When that magic point happens you will quickly see it if you are paying attention and going by sight and feel.

Under sanding is far superior than over sanding any day of the week, and twice on sunday 

Lathe speed is one of those topics like the holy grail, many search but no one finds it.  Again use the speed that feels right for the material you are using.  General rule of thumb is when sanding you want a slower speed.  When buffing you want a faster speed.  Why this?  Imagine if you will a blank spinning on a lathe, now say that blank is *NOT* perfectly round (all blank are technically here), now take a very fast RPM lathe and put sand paper on the top of the blank.  There will be vibration because it is only hitting a few spots and not the entire surface area.  Hit and bounce is what happens here.  Slow speed entails less vibration, more surface coverage area and more precision.

To tell if you are sanding to much try this:
*) Slightly 'buff' the surface of the blank, just enough for it to slightly shine.
*) Turn the lathe off and observe, closely, the blank while rotating it.
*) Lighting is critical here. You are looking long ways down the tube with a light shining on the back side facing you. 
*) Non-shiny spots is areas where you sanded through 

Sanding pressure: This really depends on the blank and the sand paper used.  The 'hardness' of the material that is coming OFF the blank vs the impact force of the spinning lathe vs the loading of the sand paper.  The simple thing to say is allow the paper to do the work and not force it.  Over using sandpaper is bad, it builds up heat, clogs and sanding dust that comes from the blank ends up being used as an abrasive on the blank.  Some like to wet sand to remove buildup which helps greatly, others (like me) prefers mesh like abranet where there is no buildup.

Volume of finish used:  This depends on what is being used.  You have a soak in factor, evaporation factor and drying factor to look at.  The blank thickness is often very minute and therefore by material volume does not hold that much.  Often times just a drop or 2 is all that is needed.


Few things to try if your lathe is variable speed.  Turn the speed to the LOWEST.  Feel the blank with a very light touch.  What you are feeling for is vibration, roughness, uneven lumpy areas and the like.  Turn the speed up slowly and there will be a point where the vibration and roughness changes.  This is your break point so that speed or slower is where you need to be at.  Oh and use one finger and touch only with the top section of your finger tip.

When dealing with finishes that soaks in and builds up there is often a period of frustration due to decreasing volume as it dries.  Ask yourself this, does it evaporate?  Does it gum up and need to be removed?   Evaporation reduces volume so you will need to apply more, if it gums up you can smear it around to fill in areas (i.e. CA glue)  Over-sanding comes into play here because people get in a rush to remove the excess and before they know it they sanded to much.  Under sand is the key.  Stop the lathe, look at the blank, observe how it looks and feels, if it needs more sanding then sand more.


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## pgfitzgerald (Aug 30, 2013)

Thanks everyone, especially edstreet. I have more things to try now.


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## edstreet (Aug 30, 2013)

OH and remember this.  Think of pen turning more as zen.  Zen and the art of turning.  The hardest part is allowing yourself to 'feel' the material.  Use your senses, smell, sound, visual and touch and listen to what the pen is telling you.  Allow the tools to do their work at their pace not your pace and you will have a solid gold winning ticket every time.


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## pgfitzgerald (Aug 31, 2013)

I did some more experimenting and I think I have finally made some progress toward my goal! The things I did differently that seemed to make the biggest difference were to:


slowed the lathe down to 840rpm
ensured 1500 grit micro mesh took down all the high spots and left no shiny areas (huge improvement here)
sped the lathe back up to 1240rpm
wet sanded with all micro mesh grits while wiping down with a cloth between grits
I did put some renaissance wax on, but I think I need some kind of polish first. It's still not as clear as I'd like it.

So here's a sample of where I'm at right now with working toward a high gloss finish using Wood Turner's finish.

By the way... somebody gave me those blanks and I have no idea what it is. Anybody recognize it?


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## edstreet (Aug 31, 2013)

pgfitzgerald said:


> I did some more experimenting and I think I have finally made some progress toward my goal! The things I did differently that seemed to make the biggest difference were to:
> 
> 
> slowed the lathe down to 840rpm
> ...



OH yes that's not bad actually.  There does appear to be some low spots still on the right end of the image.

Few things for you to try that should help greatly.

1) since this is shiny, hit it with 800 - 1500 grit paper on slow speed with a super super super light touch.  You want that light touch to be even and fluid all across the tube.  Paper the width of your finger helps with this.  Put your finger on the opposite side of the tube from where the sandpaper is working on the blank.  If you feel grains like sand, rice or what not then you need to stop and clean the blank, move the paper more frequently.

2) STOP, yes that is S T O P *IMMEDIATELY* when you see the shine is removed.

3) Put a light on the right edge of the image.

4) stand on the LEFT side of the image.

5) look to the RIGHT side of the image and what you are looking for is shiny spots.

6) slowly rotate the blank and observe where the shiny spots are. <- These are low areas in the blank. they will appear as dips and pockmarks all over the blank when finished.

If you do see shiny areas then you have 3 options here:
1) Ignore it and finish it out
2) sand until there is no shiny spots
3) add another CA coat and said that one smooth.


Also it appears there is some banding going on which is scrape marks from sanding.  If you have a 10x or 16x loupe that will play handy here.  You can see the scratch marks and know  how much you need to sand, or build up.


Another solution that may have been missed, overlooked or not even discussed is a CA satin finish 

*) Turn OFF the lathe

*) Take something like 2,500 grit, super super super fine like that.  

*) Rub left to right on the lathe with an ever so light stroke, just enough to break the shine.

*) wipe the blank down constantly. you want NO buildup of dust here.

*) repeat the entire blank

*) turn the lathe on the lowest speed possible

*) you want to use your bare skin, CLEAN, to every so softly graze the surface. LIGHT touches and run over the blank entirely. As you look at the blank you will see a shift in the hue. it will go from dull and get more shiny.  The instant it goes from dull to non-dull you want to stop.

Reflection is an art form.  For something to be shiny all of the grain patterns need to be lined up in a row.  For satin you want the same lines going in various directions.  As light hits the object and bounces the light will 'group' in one direction and cause a glare.  Bouncing in multiple directions does not cause a glare, well not as much anyways.

Clarity comes from several issues. How smooth the clear material is, i.e. lumpy, inconsistent, etc. Scratch patterns and believe it or not the direction of the material grain vs the lines on the polish. Parallel lines makes things more fuzzy.


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## Constant Laubscher (Aug 31, 2013)

The wood looks like Redwood burl


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## glen r (Aug 31, 2013)

Paul, one thing that I found removes ridges and high spots is a skew chisel.  I use this very lightly as a scraper and finish with wet 12000 mm.  The chisel takes off the high spots and ridges and the mm puts the shiney finish.  There are times when the chisel is all that is needed.


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