# Die-ing to go kitless!



## RAdams (Mar 29, 2010)

Neccessity (sp) is the mother of invention right?? Well check this out!







This is my homemade die holder. I took my Beall buff mandrel apart and used the 2MT and set screws. One set screw holds the PR stopper blank on the taper, and the other set screw holds the die. Now if i could just learn how to use the darn thing! 

I am having no problems with the tapping part. I can cut internal threads with little problem now, But for some reason, every time i try to do outside threads, The die either chews the blank up and leaves no threads what so ever, Or the die simply breaks the material off inside and jams up the whole scene. 

I have a strong feeling that i will figure it out VERY soon. Once i do, IT'S ON LIKE DONKEY KONG! I can finally start getting these designs and ideas out of my head and onto pens! Now that this tool need is cured, I can move on to the next tool on my list! The cross slide thingy! (Hmmm.. I wonder if i could make one of those too!)


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## skiprat (Mar 29, 2010)

Either I'm missing something or there is an elementary mistake. I hope it's me. Does the PR section swivel freely around the MT shaft?
How thick is the PR bush? I hope it is strong enough to last a while.


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## BRobbins629 (Mar 29, 2010)

Do you have an insert for the internal threads when you thread with the die? Not fool proof, but definitely helps.  Easy to make.  You're well on your way.


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## RAdams (Mar 29, 2010)

I'm sorry Skip, but i don't understand what you mean? 

The PR section is attached to the 2MT with a set screw. I just push the tailstock quill out all the way which releases the threads inside the tailstock. 

The PR section started out as 3 ounces of resin. I used a 3 ounce dixie cup as a mold. the top of the PR section is about 1 3/4 inches across. 

This is a temporary fix. I don't have the cash for an actual die holder right now and I just want to make a kitless pen dang it!!!


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## RAdams (Mar 29, 2010)

No, not yet. I am still practicing, so i just cut externals and start over. Once i can cut the externals i will go for inside/outside with an insert! 





BRobbins629 said:


> Do you have an insert for the internal threads when you thread with the die? Not fool proof, but definitely helps. Easy to make. You're well on your way.


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## skiprat (Mar 29, 2010)

RAdams said:


> I just push the tailstock quill out all the way which releases the threads inside the tailstock.


 
That'll do :biggrin:


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## RAdams (Apr 1, 2010)

skiprat said:


> That'll do :biggrin:


 



I learned that trick from you!!! Thanks again for writing the tutorials! Those should be in their own section called the Advanced penmaking tutorials section! Or at least the regular tutorials section!



Now back to business. I just can't seem to get this external threads thing down. I am having problems getting the spindle the right diameter. I can cut it straight(For the most part) but if i cut it small enough to thread and not break, then it doesn't engage with the internal threads. I am using the actual proper size drill bit for the tap, and can thread my test bolt right in the tapped hole with ease, and it is a nice snug fit. Impressive i must say (Thanks be going to the RAT!). But for whatever reason my externals are giving me fits. I don't have digital calipers so i am doing my best trying to figure out all these measurements with the dial calipers and a set of HF punches to use as size template kinda things. 


I need help with a few questions PLEASE... A person could figure out the two thread diameters (Minor and Major i think they call em) by measuring the diameter of the tap, which would give you your major, and measuring the inside of the die to get the minor correct? 

If your hole, threaded or not, is the same or larger than the major diameter, no good. If the spindle is smaller than the minor, slip fit instead of threading on? The drilled hole should be slightly larger than the minor diameter, and the spindle should be slightly smaller than the major diameter. Is that right? I think the lightbulbs just lit up!!!


Would a fine thread be better to use than a course thread? there is one tap and die in my set that is marked 1/8"-27NPT. It is a much finer thread than the other 8. The diameter of the bottom of the cutting area on the tap is (Remember all i have is dial calipers!) 1/64th over 3/8". Yeah, i know there is an actual fraction to show that in one thingy, I just don't know what it is and dont feel like figuring it out. :biggrin:


Thanks for all the help everyone! And I am off to my shop to try some things. I will post pics if i can get the die to cut instead of rip and shred and tear!!


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## glycerine (Apr 1, 2010)

Ron,  Do you HAVE to use a die holder and lathe?  Have you tried just turning your spindle on the lathe and then cutting the threads by hand?  Can't you do it that way as well.  I just thought it might be easier that way until you got the feel for it...


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## skiprat (Apr 1, 2010)

Fine threads are easier to cut because you are taking smaller 'bites'

As to the die...
many years ago during my apprenticeship, I was shown that the die had to be offered up to the work the right way round. I'm not sure this makes any difference with more modern taps though. I can't see any difference on my newish dies.
I was told that the side with the writing on it must start the cuts. This was for two reasons..first was that the first few teeth on that side were tapered more ( like a tap ) and also because the waste clearance holes were positioned so that you would get a positive rake at the cutting edge. If you had the die the wrong way round, then you would struggle without the taper and of course be trying to cut with a negative rake. A negative rake forces the waste against the surface you are trying to cut. 

Try and plan the work so that you can have a slight taper on the front of it, even if you have to shorten the threaded piece afterwards. 

Personally, I think your problem is the die itself. Most ( but not all ) taps and dies that come in sets from your local hardware shop are really only good enough for cleaning up an existing thread. IMHO:wink:
If your tap or die doesn't at least have a company logo or name on it, then the chances are, it's cheap and nasty. 

I'm sure you will get there eventually:wink:


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## Chuck Key (Apr 1, 2010)

RAdams said:


> Would a fine thread be better to use than a course thread? there is one tap and die in my set that is marked 1/8"-27NPT. It is a much finer thread than the other 8. The diameter of the bottom of the cutting area on the tap is (Remember all i have is dial calipers!) 1/64th over 3/8". Yeah, i know there is an actual fraction to show that in one thingy, I just don't know what it is and dont feel like figuring it out. :biggrin:


 
Look up National Pipe Thread.  That will help explain the taper you are getting and diameter issues.  I could go into all that now but dont feel like it

Chuckie


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## RAdams (Apr 1, 2010)

I noticed the slight taper on the front side of the die, and tried to use it to my advantage. If i turn the spindle small enough, i can cut really light threads with no problem at all, but they are so light they would be useless. And if i leave the spindle thick enough to get decent threads, it breaks the material.

You know, I was wondering if it might be my super cheap tap and die set. When looking for replacements, naturally i am only concerned with penmaking for now (And on a budget) Where would i look for good tap and die's one piece at a time?


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## 1dweeb (Apr 3, 2010)

I just bought some from these people and I am very happy with the result when I used them. They also sell a die holder that was only like $12 that fits in a drill chuck. It worked flawlessly for me. I was able to cut exterior threads without any problems until I tried to drill and tap the inner part. I used too large of a combination for the inner threads and broke it out. The following piece worked great.

http://www.victornet.com/index.html?id=GKrm8sN7


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## Jgrden (Apr 7, 2010)

I'll bet you can make the "cross slide thingy" but let's get to it..


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## RAdams (Apr 7, 2010)

I have been eyeballing some drawer slides, wondering if i could use them with some long allthread and bolts to make one. I might give it a go soon. Right now i have my hands full in the shop with other stuff.


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## workinforwood (Apr 8, 2010)

You can get taps and dies one at a time from lots of sources.  MSC is a good one, or victornet is another.  As skip pointed out in another thread, there are three types of taps.  You really should have at least 2 of each size.  There is a starter tap, a general purpose tap and a bottoming tap.  You need a starter tap and a bottoming tap would be good.  You can't expect to start tapping with a bottom tap.  You can use a general purpose tap, but it is a bit agressive for some materials.  A starter tap is very tapered so it takes a long time to get to full thread size, but because it is a long taper it removes small amounts of material.   I start with a starter tap and run that in until I finally reach the full thread size.  The with a general purpose tap or a bottom tap, you can follow up and not have to worry about the material removal rate at the weekest end of the pen..which is the open end.  My tap and die set has 2 tap styles for every size.  That's a real advantage.  So think about buying two different tap styles and one die for each size you want, especially if you are planning on tapping PR.


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## RAdams (Apr 8, 2010)

That is a very good point Jeff! I had thought about that and figured it might help me have more success with tapping and wondered if anyone else used multiple taps. Now somebody just needs to invent starter dies! Thanks for posting!


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