# Finishing Challenged - Now With Extra Enduro (Beware: Long)



## pgfitzgerald (May 11, 2009)

Like many of you, I started out many moons ago using friction finish and found that it simply didn't stand up to daily use.

I then ran across Les Elm's Minwax Polyurethane technique. Try as I might, I just couldn't replicate the look Les was able to achieve. It also took a long time to get through all the necessary steps.

Next, I gave CA a shot. The fumes were a lot to handle, but I finally ended up being able to get a somewhat consistent outcome. I just don't like the look or the feel.

Most recently, I've been using Enduro. But like the Minwax Polyurethane, I can't seem to replicate the look I see in the "Show Off Your Pens" forum. Nevertheless, I like Enduro best so far.

...

I'm just extremely frustrated that I haven't been able to get a great finish with any method no matter how much time I spend practicing.

All I want is a smooth, blemish free, gloss finish. All I seem to be able to get is a smooth gloss finish with lots of little imperfections. My pens always look great until you pick them up and look at them.

...

Using Enduro and following Wayne's instructions word for word gives me the best results of anything I have tried. Using Viva paper towels really does help... and everything seems to go very well until I get to the last part.

Using MM from 3200 to 12000 on 3 coats of the glossy top coat results in, more often than not, blowing right through the 3 coats of glossy top coat.

So I started doing 6 coats. Blowing through doesn't happen as much, but when I get done with 3200-12000, the finish isn't smooth.

I figured starting with 1500 rather than 3200 might help. That ended in, more often than not, blowing right through the 6 coats of glossy top coat.

So I started doing 9 coats. Blowing through doesn't happen as much, but when I get done with 1500-12000, the finish still isn't smooth.

I figured maybe using Brasso, like Les Elm does, after the 12000 MM would help, but it made things worse... and when I redid the MM to get back to where I was before the Brasso... I blew right through what was left of the top coat.

I was thinking about trying some Huts Ultra Gloss Plastic Polish, but I really don't know if it will help.

I was also thinking about giving dipping lacquer a shot, but I'm reluctant to give up on the Enduro since I feel like I'm so close to finally achieving the finish I so desire.

I just have no idea what I'm doing wrong. I don't know anyone nearby that can give me some hands on help. I haven't yet found a video that has been able to get through my thick skull. And I've read so much I feel like my eyes  are going to stop working here shortly.

Anyways... Thanks for letting me vent. And if you read all of that... Wow, thanks for taking the time. If you have any words of wisdom, that would be great!

Paul


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## maxwell_smart007 (May 11, 2009)

Words of wisdom: no matter how hard a finish looks to master, or a technique to learn, with enough practice and effort you'll get it in the end...

No one picked up a pen and wrote a best-selling novel on their first effort...it involves editing, reformulating, and rewriting....in the same vein, penturning requires practice and continual effort to master!  

Don't give up - it'll come in the end! 

Andrew


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## kantslepe (May 12, 2009)

Have you tried using the BLO in combination with CA?


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## pgfitzgerald (May 12, 2009)

kantslepe said:


> Have you tried using the BLO in combination with CA?



Yep. I just don't particularly care for the look or feel.

Paul


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## jkeithrussell (May 12, 2009)

I hate CA.  I really do.  As a finishing technique, it is unpredictable and finicky.  It's also messy, and it stinks, and the vapors are bad for you.  It doesn't like to work when it is too hot, or too cold, or too dry, or too humid, or if you wipe it on the blank with the wrong paper towel.  Yet I use it (or try to) on every pen.  I haven't found anything else that even comes close to it in terms of durability, shine, and relative ease of application.  I like the airbrushed acrylic or urethane finishes, but I don't feel like buying an airbrush, a finishing rod motor and stand, delrin bushings, etc.


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## KenV (May 12, 2009)

If you are "blowing through 3 coats" you appear to be over sanding.   You are seeking to polish out the scratches from previous grits and it means letting the paper do the work -- Try to lighten up on the pressure.  you level with the first grits and need only polish scratches from there.   Wet sanding slow the cutting and tell you how much you are removing via amount of slurry you generate.


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## pgfitzgerald (May 12, 2009)

KenV said:


> If you are "blowing through 3 coats" you appear to be over sanding.



Makes sense. I figured that's what I was doing.



KenV said:


> You are seeking to polish out the scratches from previous grits and it means letting the paper do the work.



I understand that in theory... I just can't seem to grasp the techniques in practice. If I followed Wayne's instructions and started at MM 3200, I wasn't getting the swirls out.

I figured that meant I wasn't putting the finish on smoothly enough. And to an extent I think that was correct. After working on application technique for a while, I was able to get it on smoothly enough that starting at MM 3200 _seemed _to work.

Only problem is I'd get all the way to MM 12000 and there would still be a lot of blemishes. The blank would be super smooth and glossy, but would otherwise look horrible due to the imperfections.

So then I was back at MM1500, or applying Brasso, or whatever else... trying to get the imperfections out.



KenV said:


> Try to lighten up on the pressure. you level with the first grits and need only polish scratches from there.



Yeah, I noticed last night I seem to be pressing too hard. Is it possible to bend the mandrel shaft by using MM with too much pressure? I fell like a doofus. :tongue:



KenV said:


> Wet sanding slow the cutting and tell you how much you are removing via amount of slurry you generate.



I've tried that as well and I see what you mean about the amount of slurry.

But... I'm not sure I understand the purpose of wet sanding... in theory.

Thanks!


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## HawksFeather (May 12, 2009)

Well, since you were kind enough to start this, I will add my problems to the list.







I have been playing (since that seems to be the best description of my work) with Enduro as a finish on some of the calls that I make.  Unlike pens, it has curves and crevices that seem to cause me problems and at times the flats do too.  My problem is that there are small ridges in the finish.  I have tried, delrin strips, cloth, paper towels, small finishing brushes, and even my finger and still have ridges.  I have also tried the paper towel in front and in back of the turning piece with the same results.  

I have tried light sanding to remove the lines and while this works, it usually takes most of the finish off.  I have been using micromesh and start at about 2400.

The only call that I can say I was really successful with I used a brush and put on about 20 coats (over several days) and then let it sit for a couple more days to cure out.  After that I started it on the lathe and used pumic stone and oil (as lightly as possible) to smooth out the finish and put a gloss on it.  

Needless to say, there has to be a better way.  Either that or my expectations of Enduro as a build up gloss finish are way to high.

Thanks,

Jerry


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## CharlestonPenWorks (May 12, 2009)

You are having problems that all CA finishers have or have had at any given time. I agree that CA can be very finicky and that the fumes are an issue, but I also can't find another finish that matches the gloss and durability of CA so I press on. Here are the few things that have helped me in getting my CA finish predictible.

1. 5 coats of thin (to seal and smooth) and then 3 coats of medium or thick (to build up)
2. I use aerosol accelerant on the medium or thick (this actually will help tremendously on the fumes)
3. Start with 800 grit wet sandpaper on *a smooth rubber sanding block*.
       -this will keep your fingers from applying uneven pressure to different points on the blank.
       -Use this to bulk sand down to smooth finish, stop and check often to see if imperfections are gone, use water to aid in         
        lubrication and keep down heat, wipe down with dry cloth and look at shine as you turn the blank to see if ridges are gone.
4. Take time to fill any pits or holes with medium CA AND LET CURE WITHOUT ACCELERANT.  IMHO, if you spray accelerant to      
     these pits it will only cure the outside, inside the "bubble" remains liquid, becomes an issue.
5. Re-sand by hand to knock down high points from pit filling
6. Once the finish is uniform and smooth, begin MM (wet) and work up the grits
7. I finish off with a light polishing compound and buff with and dry cloth.

This seems to work pretty consistently for me, notice however that it is pretty consistent.  The nice thing about this routine is that if you ever go too deep or leave pits, you can always step back and start over.  If you have to re-apply more CA however, quickly clean off the blank with Acetone.  This will clean and prep the surface for strong clear adhesion.

Dennis


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## chris99210 (May 12, 2009)

Paul,
What kinds of imperfections are you seeing?  Are they there before you start the Enduro process?  I use Enduro as the finish of choice for all my wood pens and I get excellent results.  It has all the advantages you mentioned although it does take longer than CA.  To Jerry's point, it's not great for surfaces with lots of complex curves because ridges or ripples can develop and they are difficult to sand smooth without taking off the finish in the valleys.
In any case, here are some things I do that you might try:
* MM to 12000 and clean the surface of all dust with DNA.  Starting with a good surface is critical as Enduro will just magnify any imperfections that are there at the start. Pits and swirls will definitely be felt or seen.
*Apply 4 to 5 coats of sanding sealer.  I was never happy with just 3.  The more coats, the deeper the final finish will appear.  Wait at least 24 hours before sanding after the final coat.
*Start at MM3200 and all the way to 12000 to smooth the sanding sealer.  As mentioned, use light pressure when sanding.  Clean the surface using DNA applied with a cotton cloth between each step.
*Apply 4 to 5 coats of glossy top coat.  Wait at least 24 hours before sanding the final coat -- longer than that is even better.
*Start at MM3200 and all the way to 12000 to smooth the top coat.  As mentioned, use light pressure when sanding.  Clean the surface using DNA applied with a cotton cloth between each step.
*Use Hut's gloss plastic polish as the final step -- I've tried numerous products but Hut's delivers the best result.  I polish 3 times.
*Sand at 1800RPM or so with the MM and very light pressure.  Be sure the MM pads are clean.
*I always had trouble using just the few drops of sealer or top coat that Wayne indicates.  I changed my method and started running a bead of the liquid across the Viva paper towel to pre-soak it.  I then use a bunch of drops for each coat and drip them along the top/back of the blank as it's turning at a slow speed.  I try to have enough liquid collect on the paper towel pad so that it forms a pool; that pool then can be run from one side of the blank to the other such that it "wicks" onto the blank (only go in one direction, not back and forth).  I then shut off the lathe and turn it by hand for a minute or two to be sure the sealer or top coat is evenly distriubuted, then turn the lathe back on for a couple of minutes until it is dry.  This process yields a fairly thin film for the first 1 or 2 coats, but by the 4th coat it will be much heavier.  It takes some practice to avoid ridges and ripples, but you will eventually be able to get 4 coats with no pits, ripples, or ridges, and with the sanding steps and Hut there shouldn't be any swirl marks.  
*Be sure to use a knife to score any finish at the transition to the bushings before breaking them free; use 600 grit on a smooth flat surface to sand any excess off the ends.
Good luck...
Chris


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## workinforwood (May 12, 2009)

I use acrylic urethane, not polyurethane, but they are both applied and sanded the same way.  I use a rotisserie and an air brush.  The rotisserie spins nice and slow so as not to spin the finish off the blank, but at the same time prevents any sagging. The air application means that there's no ridges from an applicator, I spray it pretty thick, the acrylic urethane is thicker than the average finish to begin with and it will outlast almost any finish for strength.  I apply a thick coat, wait an hour re-apply, wait an hour re-apply, done.  24 hrs later I mount the blank on the lathe, crank it up and start wet sanding at 1800mm.  About 5-10 seconds per pad is plenty.  If you don't air spray, I recommend sanding across the pen by hand first to remove any ridges.  After all my wet mm sanding, I use plastic polish and finally mequires wet polish.  All these are the same steps I'd do with CA for sanding and polishing.  I guarantee most of my urethane pens set beside my CA pens, you can't tell which is which.  The urethane is far stronger than polyurethane.  If you use poly, it will sand away much faster because it's a softer finish, so that means you sand quicker and gentler is all.  With the acrylic urethane or regular polyurethane, you also need to be careful polishing with the plastic polish...if you do to much polishing or let it sit in one spot rubbing too long, you will build up heat that will destroy the finish, especially the regular poly finish.  It'll do that with enduro too.  Polish quick and fast.


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## jkeithrussell (May 12, 2009)

workinforwood said:


> I use acrylic urethane, not polyurethane, but they are both applied and sanded the same way. I use a rotisserie and an air brush. The rotisserie spins nice and slow so as not to spin the finish off the blank, but at the same time prevents any sagging. The air application means that there's no ridges from an applicator, I spray it pretty thick, the acrylic urethane is thicker than the average finish to begin with and it will outlast almost any finish for strength. I apply a thick coat, wait an hour re-apply, wait an hour re-apply, done. 24 hrs later I mount the blank on the lathe, crank it up and start wet sanding at 1800mm. About 5-10 seconds per pad is plenty. If you don't air spray, I recommend sanding across the pen by hand first to remove any ridges. After all my wet mm sanding, I use plastic polish and finally mequires wet polish. All these are the same steps I'd do with CA for sanding and polishing. I guarantee most of my urethane pens set beside my CA pens, you can't tell which is which. The urethane is far stronger than polyurethane. If you use poly, it will sand away much faster because it's a softer finish, so that means you sand quicker and gentler is all. With the acrylic urethane or regular polyurethane, you also need to be careful polishing with the plastic polish...if you do to much polishing or let it sit in one spot rubbing too long, you will build up heat that will destroy the finish, especially the regular poly finish. It'll do that with enduro too. Polish quick and fast.


 
Jeff, 
What name brand of acrylic urethane do you use?


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## leehljp (May 12, 2009)

I made a highly grained wood coffee mug onto which I put a dozen coats of lacquer. I could still see the grain pattern telegraphed to the surface. After posting a note and question of that onto this forum, a couple of people suggested sealing well with CA before applying the lacquer. I will do that the next time.


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## JackTheSquid (May 14, 2009)

I hear you, bro.  I am frustrated with finishes, too.  I have decided to return to basics and keep it simple these days.  I do the step by step sanding with the MM all the way to 12k, then use the Aussie system of EEE finisher and Shellwax polish.  I love the smell, and even though it is not a long lasting or wearing finish, it gives the wood a rich, good look.  One of these days I will get back to finding a more durable finish but for now I will punt...


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## drferry (May 26, 2009)

Paul,

I, too, have worked my way through the finishes, starting with brush-on lacquer, through Enduro, and now to CA/BLO.  Here are my thoughts:

Brush-on lacquer was extremely difficult to apply without running.  We finally improvised a rotisserie made for turing meat over a grill to put the blanks on and let them turn slowly until dry.  I usually applied 7 coats, which, with at least several hours between coats, and it took forever.  The other problem was that lacquer is brittle and tended to crack, particularly at the ends of the blank or if the pen was dropped.

Enduro was a great step in the right direction, and I used it for nearly a year.  I ended up putting on 6 coats of sanding sealer and 10 coats of the glossy, with a day to dry between the two finishes and another before I sanded.  I also sanded the sanding sealer before using the glossy top coat.  I started with 600 grit and went to MM 12,000.  Then I used the Beall buffing system with all three wheels and polishes (Tripoli, white diamond, and carnuba wax).  I guarantee that you will get out all of those tiny little imperfections with the buffing system.  However, although Enduro started out with a great finish, glossy as the dickens, over the next weeks to months, the finish slowly became less glossy and turned downright dull.  I had clearly given Enduro a thorough try, what with 16 coats plus buffing.

I am now using CA/BLO, although I hate the fumes and, as others have said, it is finicky.  The best I have found so far is using a few drops of BLO followed by thick CA, followed by 3 more applications of BLO/CA.  I am not yet convinced what BLO is supposed to be doing, but I'm going with the 5 or 6 tutorials that I read or watched.  The problem with CA, to me, is that it tends to have a few small bubbles in it, that I spent a long time popping with a thin piece of wire.  Bubbles are extremely apparent on dark woods.  Finally, I hit on spreading the CA with the impervious paper back side of a piece of sandpaper, moving it around just enough to eliminate the larger ridges.  I no longer touch a paper towel  to the wood except for the BLO. This results in very few bubbles.

I use a skew to cut off excess CA down to a smooth surface before I start sanding with 400 and on through MM 12,000.  I then use the same Beall buffing technique on every blank.

Finally, I think it is of critical importance to carefully part the blank right down to the bushing to cut the hardened CA on both ends, otherwise you can crack the CA when twisting off the bushing.

The result is at least 1 mm or more thick rock-hard finish that is incredibly glossy.  I was amazed that a finish could look this good, and everyone of my friends has noticed the change in the look and feel of my pens.  I even tried this on African Blackwood, and, so far at least, it looks great.

So don't give up; I think everyone has to go through a long learning curve to be able to get the finish they are looking for.

David


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## RussFairfield (May 26, 2009)

I suspect that you problem is with the wood surface before any finish is applied. The wood should be smooth and free of all defects and sanding scratches after 600-grit and before application of the 1st coat of finish. Anything left on the wood will only be magnified by the finish. Use a bright incandescent light to accent the flaws in the surface.

Likewise for any subsequent coats of finish. Sand the previous coat with 600 grit until it is as smooth and free of defects as possible. You shouldn't be able to see any dimples or sanding scratches with a bright light. If they are left there, they will only be magnified by the next coat, and the more unsanded coats, the more magnified and bigger they will become, and the more of the finish that will have to be sanded off to remove them.


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