# Buffing issues



## CaRed (Aug 10, 2009)

I have been lurking in cyberspace on this forum for a while reading many great articles and learning much.  I have not turned a pen yet since I am practicing my finishing on scrap pieces of cherry.  

I have an issue I have been unable to fix even after searching the forums for a few hours.  I am using Minwax Wipe on Poly gloss finish.  I sanded the piece to 1200 grit and was happy with the finish.  Initially, I tried to wipe on the poly but it seemed to absorb and there was not much of a finish on the pen.  I decided to dip the pen.  This seemed to work fine.  I dipped, let the pen dry for about 4 hours, used steel wool to buff, cleaned the blank with DNA and reapplied another coat.  I let the final coat dry for about 6 hours and made sure there was no tackiness before buffing.  This is where my problems started.  The piece looked very nice but needed to be smoothed out.

I purchased a buffing kit at Harbor Freight which had a buffing wheel (assumed cotton but didn't specify), white oxide stick and red rouge.  I did purchase separate buffing wheels.  I applied the red rouge first and then the white oxide.  

My first attempt was what I would call a failure.  After the coating dried, I used 600 and 1200 wet/dry then buffed.  After buffing, there seemed to be a loss of color and much of the piece was almost shaded white.  It resembled something like dust left in the scratch pattern.  But, I cleaned with DNA after each sanding.  Next time I eliminated the sanding and just buffed the piece.  The finish was very smooth but not very glossy.  Some of the finishes I have seen in "show off your pens" have been nearly glass like.  The gloss and color before buffing seems to have been lost in buffing.  

I have never buffed before and just wonder if I am missing something.  I buffed at about 1500 rpm on a six inch wheel.  I am not asking for much just a perfectly smooth finish with a mirrow like appearance.

Any help would be appreciated.

p.s.  I just want to thank everyone in advance who responds for your time and efforts to help the less knowledgeable.  We all still learn by trial and error but with the help we can eliminate many of the errors.


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## Displaced Canadian (Aug 10, 2009)

I can't speak to pen finishing yet, but I can tell you about wipe on poly. It is just regular poly that is thinned about 50% with mineral oil and is difficult to build a finish with. When I do a hand rubbed finish on furniture I use a different product and it takes about 8 coats.The pro's here are going to tell you to learn to do a CA finish. Best of luck.


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## CaRed (Aug 10, 2009)

Displaced Canadian said:


> I can't speak to pen finishing yet, but I can tell you about wipe on poly. It is just regular poly that is thinned about 50% with mineral oil and is difficult to build a finish with. When I do a hand rubbed finish on furniture I use a different product and it takes about 8 coats.The pro's here are going to tell you to learn to do a CA finish. Best of luck.


 
Before I buffed, the coat was very glossy and had good depth.  I just thought it may be something I was doing incorrectly while buffing.  Thanks for the info.

Have tried Enduro also and it was very soft.  In fact I was easily able to indent the finish with my finger nail.  I thought it may be because I had not let it dry long enough but I thought a week was good.


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## desertrat (Aug 10, 2009)

First the poly needs to cure for 24 hours between coats. After the first coat use 4-0 steel wool, then just wipe with clean lintfree cloth and apply the second coat. 24 hours later more work with the steel wool and then after another 24 hours apply the final coat of poly. You should have a glass smooth glossy finish, no buffing required. CA is a much prefered finish and more durable. DNA will cause your poly to have a milky dull apperance, mineral spirits if you feel the need to wet wipe. Hope this helps
John H


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## ldb2000 (Aug 10, 2009)

The poly you want is "Minwax Fastdry Polyurethane" not the wipe on stuff . As Christopher said , the wipe on is much too thin and would require many coats to build enough finish to use on pens . What most likely happened to your finish is you didn't give it enough time to cure . A thin coat takes from 24 to 48 hours to FULLY cure and thicker coats take much longer to cure .
With the Fastdry Poly you need to wait several days for it to fully cure before you sand and buff it . You can Post cure it with heat (125 degrees for about 2 to 3 hours) and then let it sit overnight before sanding and buffing but you should still wait about a week before using or selling the pen .
It is not a fast finish for pens but once cured is is as good as CA .


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## Texatdurango (Aug 10, 2009)

I love wipe on poly and use it almost exclusively on the bowls I now am turning.  As said, let it cure not just dry to the touch.  As you stated, the first coat seemed to just absorb, that's what it's supposed to do.  Being so thin, the first few coats will seem like they just soak in and aren't doing anything, but they are building a nice foundation for a good finish.  I have done several pens using wipe on poly and think they will stand up to years of use, just plan on several coats.  I never see the need to buff mine, once I have several coats on, the finish itself shines enough on it's own.  Try doing a pen with five or six coats of wipe on poly without sanding after the third or fourth coats and don't buff then see what happens.

You mentioned seeing a build up of white residue when buffing.  Without watching you buff I would guess two things are happening.

1. You are using way too much buffing compound on the wheel.  I hit the wheel with the compound bar for half a second and that's plenty.  Too much compound leaves an oily, waxy buildup on the item being polished.

2.  Too much pressure is being used and you are probably just removing some of your poly finish.  Just like sandpaper, buffing compounds are abrasives, just finer ones than sandpaper!

 Don't press down on the buff so hard, you can actually leave buffing marks similar to sandpaper scratches.  A light touch which barely bends the buff will give you the best results.


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## KenV (Aug 10, 2009)

The good news is that your are trying new things and building skills.

The bad thing is that you are probably using too heavy a hand, and are having soft finishes going to the buffer.  I suspect your wheels are coarse cotton, and fine cotton and flannel, (flannel for wax) -  I looked again and did not see the wax stage there.  

You did not cite the wheel size -- I suspect 6 inch or 8 inch diameter cloth wheels with a really high surface speed-  For the same RPM, a big wheel has a much faster speed at the point of contact.   Ever watch a watch maker or jeweler polish - they use a very small wheel (2-3 inch) with small pieces of soft metal.  

Dedicate a wheel to a single use -- one for Rouge, one for white diamond, one for polish (I use one step with flannel) and one for each wax (I use one for carnuba and one for microcrystaline wax)  -- and you have a separate container for each one so cross contamination with other grits does not occur -- 

I find I can get the same polish with micromesh, abralon, or buffing  - but the processes are different and the time is different.

Enduro still soft after a week --  too old or too thick.   I like enduro, but it takes thin coats and a few days cure.

Lacquer -  takes about a week or two to get really hard and cure out for buffing. 

Stabilized blanks and acrylics -- I do not bother with buffing - just polish out with abralon and use plastic polish.  I wipe down with microcrystaline wax to better handle finger prints.

Practice your wood buffing on some bare smooth hard wood --- no finish needed to build a nice wax surface with carnuba.  If you see abrasive you are using open grain wood like oak, or you have way way too much abrasive on the wheel.


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## RussFairfield (Aug 10, 2009)

It's already been said. 6 hours ain't long enough. 3 to 6 days would be more like it before buffing a dipped oil finish. I use Waterlox or a homebrew finishing oil and a dipped application, and I always wait a week to make sure. The longer you wait, the better will be the results.

Watco Danish Oil is also a good dipped oil finish, but it also needs several days for a full cure.


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## CaRed (Aug 10, 2009)

I guess I can assume from all the feedback, that my buffing was probably not the culprit to a lack of gloss.  If I had waited an appropriate amount of time, the gloss would have stayed?

I really appreciate all the feedback.  I hope at some point, I will be able to have constructive feedback for newer turners.

Thanks again.


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## CaRed (Aug 10, 2009)

RussFairfield said:


> It's already been said. 6 hours ain't long enough. 3 to 6 days would be more like it before buffing a dipped oil finish. I use Waterlox or a homebrew finishing oil and a dipped application, and I always wait a week to make sure. The longer you wait, the better will be the results.
> 
> Watco Danish Oil is also a good dipped oil finish, but it also needs several days for a full cure.


 
I visited your website after submitting my question.  I stayed up way to late reading.  Will be surfing again tonight.


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## wb7whi (Aug 11, 2009)

Dont use the red when you buff as it acts like sandpaper. You probably buffed the previous finish off. Next time Try the white and the carnuba wax only.

I usually finish with CA, sand from 6k to 12k and then use the buffer to finish the finish.


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## DurocShark (Aug 11, 2009)

Wait, I thought red rouge was finer than white diamond? I have a jewelers set of bars that came with instructions... brown, coarse. White, medium. Red, fine. I've never used the red because I haven't needed it, especially with the carnauba wax stage, and I rarely need the brown. I'm just wondering...


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## bradh (Aug 11, 2009)

Lots of good advice above. Let me add a couple things. The 1500 speed is a little slow for 6" wheels. I run 6" wheels at 3000 RPM when I buff.
   The white diamond buffing compound is rated about the same as 600 grit sandpaper, if I remember right. Way too course a grit. If the red is jeweler's rouge, it is a bit finer, but still too course for my liking. I prefer to buff with very fine grit automotive polish. I use a McGuire's, but one of their finest grit versions. I think it has a #7 rating for the grit.
  My process is a CA/BLO finish, MM up to 12000 grit, buff with McGuire's, wax with Ren wax, and then buff the wax on a separate wheel. The finish looks invisible when you get it right, just a deep wet-wood grain look.
   I have buffed poly finishes too, I like to let them sit a few days to fully harden, then take them directly to the buffer with the McGuire's.
 I hope this helps.


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## Mack C. (Aug 11, 2009)

Hi Chris; Here's a tut using 4 hr. quick dry poly from another pen forum I visit.

http://www.penturnersparadise.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=838 

I have great sucess using this method. I apply the poly with a ½" artist's brush rather than a Q-tip. The secret to my way of thinking is to allow the poly to cure for a day or so after the final coat.


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## Texatdurango (Aug 11, 2009)

bradh said:


> Lots of good advice above. Let me add a couple things. The 1500 speed is a little slow for 6" wheels. I run 6" wheels at 3000 RPM when I buff.
> The white diamond buffing compound is rated about the same as 600 grit sandpaper, if I remember right. Way too course a grit. If the red is jeweler's rouge, it is a bit finer, but still too course for my liking. I prefer to buff with very fine grit automotive polish. I use a McGuire's, but one of their finest grit versions. I think it has a #7 rating for the grit.
> My process is a CA/BLO finish, MM up to 12000 grit, buff with McGuire's, wax with Ren wax, and then buff the wax on a separate wheel. The finish looks invisible when you get it right, just a deep wet-wood grain look.
> I have buffed poly finishes too, I like to let them sit a few days to fully harden, then take them directly to the buffer with the McGuire's.
> I hope this helps.


Hi Brad, I believe your info is incorrect.  I routinely buff out fine 1000 grit sanding marks with white diamond compound.  If it were as course as you say I would be adding marks not removing them.

I don't have it handy right now but remember reading elsewhere that it is closer to the equivelant of 1500 to 2000 grit than 600 grit.

But, I have heard so many talk about McGuire's that I might have to look into it to see what it's all about.  Have you ever used Novus #2 or #3 plastic scratch remover/polish?  If so, how do you compare it to McGuire's?


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## bradh (Aug 12, 2009)

I think you are right on the grit, I was going by memory and that is dangerous for me. I can not find a grit comparison chart either. I did find a reference on the Yahoo penturners group stating Tripoli is about 1200 grit and white diamond is about 2000 grit.
I do know that I tried about 5 different types of buffing compounds and I was not happy with the results. I tried the McGuire's after a recommendation and I have been extremely pleased with the results. I have been trying to remember the McGuire's product name of what I use (*%#& memory!). There will be other brands that will work as well, the point is to stick with a very, very fine grit.


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## DurocShark (Aug 12, 2009)

It's Plast-X. I used it and loved it, but found the buffing wheels to be superior.


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## bradh (Aug 17, 2009)

I finally found the info:
Meguiar's Mirror Glaze; Show Car Glaze, #7 grit rating. Great stuff.


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## Mack C. (Aug 17, 2009)

bradh said:


> I finally found the info:
> McGuire's Mirror Glaze; Show Car Glaze, #7 grit rating. Great stuff.


McGuire's is spelled "Meguiar's". Hi Brad, I'm not being a smart a$$. If someone were looking for it, since there is a McGuire's Mirror Glaze as well. Google knows!


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## KenV (Aug 17, 2009)

Just a cautionary note --- not all abrasives imbedded in waxes are created equal -  and not all red bars are the same grit.  Been caught there with some "cheap" rouge in the past.  And there are several different "white" bars with different abrasive qualities.

Most of these abrasives are sold for metal polishing, and the quality and consistency can vary widely.  

Ask a jeweler if they get the cheap compounds from the import store -- 

This is a place where your milage may vary widely with different sources and with different materials on the wheels.  Different cloths/materials work differently on the wheels for different uses and speeds.  Different metals use different combinations of wheels, compounds, and speeds.  And the metal work is all about cost and thorughput.


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## Texatdurango (Aug 17, 2009)

CaRed said:


> ...... Some of the finishes I have seen in "show off your pens" have been nearly glass like. The gloss and color before buffing seems to have been lost in buffing.
> 
> I have never buffed before and just wonder if I am missing something. I buffed at about 1500 rpm on a six inch wheel. I am not asking for much just a perfectly smooth finish with a mirrow like appearance.
> 
> ...


OK, Since you have never buffed before I would suggest visiting http://www.caswellplating.com/buffs/ and spend 30 minutes browsing through their website.  Go there with the intent of buying some buffing compound and some buffs, not knowing exactly what you want.

I can pretty much assure you that after reading through their site for 30 minutes, you will know more about buffing plastics, how compounds differ and what buffs are used with which compounds that 95% of the members here!  You will quickly learn that there is so much more involved than "1500 rpm on a six inch wheel" or using red or white compounds.

I like their "Plastic-Glo" compound myself.


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## RussFairfield (Aug 27, 2009)

There seems to be some confusion about particle sizes of the buffing compounds.

You can generally tell the compound by its color, but not always. Using the name is a better way to determine what conpound you are using.

For the bars in common use by woodturners and available where we buy our supplies - - - 

Tripoli is always a reddish brown color because it is Jewelers Rouge. The particle size is about 10-micron, which makes it similar in size to 900-1000 grit in sandpaper.

White Diamond is always white and it is Tin Oxide. The particle size is about 4-microns, which makes it similar in size to the grit on 1800 sandpaper.

Many of the liquid scratch removers use a Chromium Oxide abrasive that is a 0.5-micron particle size. It is also available in a stick form that can be any number of colors depending on who made it, but the one I have is green..


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## wb7whi (Aug 27, 2009)

Next time you buff dont use the red. Stick with the white and wax. The red may be rubbing your finish off. Try keeping your wheels under 2000rpm if you can.


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## bradh (Aug 28, 2009)

wb7whi said:


> Try keeping your wheels under 2000rpm if you can.



The import speed is the surface speed of the buff. I run 3000rpm on a 6" buff. That would be too fast for a 8" buff. Here is an chart to use to understand the difference:
http://www.schaffnermfg.com/speed-chart.html

here is a good page with info on compounds, buffs, safety...:
http://www.caswellplating.com/buffs/buffman.htm


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## CaRed (Aug 28, 2009)

I appreciate all the information.  I did a white coconut pen from Arizona Silhouettes.  I buffed and waxed one half and only used sandpaper and micro mesh on the other half.  There is a noticeable color difference.  The buffed side is darker.  My wife says I am the only one who will notice the color difference.  

Next issue.  Any ideas why the two barrels had different colors?


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## bradh (Sep 2, 2009)

CaRed said:


> Next issue.  Any ideas why the two barrels had different colors?



If you read Russ's pages, he talks about the different ways that you can get grain to pop. My guess is that the colour change is related to that. The difference in smoothness (gloss) is also likely to shift the colour of the reflecting light.


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## PenMan1 (Sep 12, 2009)

I bought a buffer from HF and the darm thing turned in the wrong direction. I turned the buffer around (with the controls to the rear). This made the buffer spin TOWARD me rather than AWAY from me.

Needless to say, my buffing showed marked improvement! I'm a little embarassed to say that it took me a few times to notice it was turning in the wrong direction.  You may want to check the direction your buffer is turning?


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