# homemade friction polish



## old folks (Aug 9, 2005)

Bonnie Klein uses Boiled Linseed oil, Shellac and alcohol as a homemade friction polish... what type of alcohol is used ? Thank you


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## alamocdc (Aug 9, 2005)

John, it would probably be Denatured since that is what you use in Shellac. I haven't heard of any other being used in woodworking.


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## DCBluesman (Aug 10, 2005)

Yes, it's denatured alcohol.  Rubbing alcohol (like what you get at the drug store) has a lot of water in it.


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## MDWine (Aug 10, 2005)

I wonder how durable it is?  Shellac is still shellac, right?


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## lkorn (Aug 10, 2005)

Mike, it has the same durability as the HUT FP, not much.  Russ FAirfield aslo has a recipe for homemade Fp on his website.  However even better is his recipe for a lacquer based FP.  There are also commercial lacquer-based FP on the market.  We used some at the Grizfest on both my corncob, and the bottle stoppers Griz made. 



> _Originally posted by MDWine_
> <br />I wonder how durable it is?  Shellac is still shellac, right?


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## jckossoy (Aug 10, 2005)

Larry,
   Do you have the link for the recipe?

Kol Tov,


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## Ron in Drums PA (Aug 10, 2005)

DNA is the standard alcohol used, but, you can use moonshine if it's cheaper.[8D]

Shellac can be very durable if used properly. There are 300 year old violins still around that used shellac as a finish.


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## DCBluesman (Aug 10, 2005)

> _Originally posted by jckossoy_
> <br />Larry,
> Do you have the link for the recipe?
> 
> Kol Tov,


http://www.woodcentral.com/russ/finish10.shtml


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## jckossoy (Aug 10, 2005)

Thanks

Kol Tov,


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## wayneis (Aug 10, 2005)

Larry what is the name of that commercial FP?  I'm starting to do a few small things that it would work on real good I think.  If only Griz were here he would know too.

Thanks,

Wayne


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## lkorn (Aug 10, 2005)

Wayne,  I'll check when I get home and tell you tomorrow.  



> _Originally posted by wayneis_
> <br />Larry what is the name of that commercial FP?  I'm starting to do a few small things that it would work on real good I think.  If only Griz were here he would know too.
> 
> Thanks,
> ...


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## vick (Aug 10, 2005)

http://woodenpost.com/products/liquid_friction_polishes_and_sealers.htm

Here is a link to a Lacquer based friction polish.  I have never used it before though.


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## Ron in Drums PA (Aug 10, 2005)

Everything you wanted to know about friction polishes but where afraid to ask

http://www.woodcentral.com/russ/finish10.shtml


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## GregD (Aug 10, 2005)

Here is a "Home Brew" That I have been using. I copied from this site when I first joined. I've also been using more shellac than it calls for. It seems to work better.

  "Home Brew" 

1 unit Shellac (3)
1 unit Denatured Alcohol
1 unit Boiled Linseed Oil
2 units Mineral Spirits

When I use "unit" I mean, unit of measure (tbs, pint, quart, etc.) and I often just use a coffee scoop as my measuring cup, so it would be 1 scoop shellac, 1 scoop alcohol, 1 scoop BLO, 2 scoops mineral spirits.

I dampen a cotton cloth with the solution and hold it against the barrels still mounted on the mandrel and spinning with the lathe set to High Speed and hold it on there until the cloth is dry. This leaves a real nice glossy finish


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## alamocdc (Aug 11, 2005)

The lacquer based FP that I've seen Tom (OldGriz) recommend is Turner's Magic. Here's the link: http://www.woodwriteltd.com/turnmagi.htm


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## lkorn (Aug 11, 2005)

Wayne,

This is the stuff, tis a good thing Billy posted the link, because I got busy with other things last night and forgot about checking it out.  




> _Originally posted by alamocdc_
> <br />The lacquer based FP that I've seen Tom (OldGriz) recommend is Turner's Magic. Here's the link: http://www.woodwriteltd.com/turnmagi.htm


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## wayneis (Aug 11, 2005)

Thank you Billy and Larry, now all we need is the ole Griz man himself.

Wayne


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## GregD (Aug 13, 2005)

All this talk about friction polish got me motivated enough to go buy some lacquer and lacquer thinner. I mixed 1TSP lacquer, 1TSP thinner, and 1TSP Blo. It gave the same great results as shellac but should be a lot tougher than the shellac.


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## Thumbs (Aug 14, 2005)

GregD, when you made your lacquer based FP you said you used more than the recipe called for. There is a #3 behind the shellac on your "recipe" line.  Is that the multiplier you used?

And how about giving us some feedback on your lacquer based FP as to durability and shine after you test it for a bit.  I love my "Mylands" but it's also awful expensive.  This sounds like a possibly great alternative!   Thanks!


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## GregD (Aug 14, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Thumbs_
> <br />GregD, when you made your lacquer based FP you said you used more than the recipe called for. There is a #3 behind the shellac on your "recipe" line.  Is that the multiplier you used?
> 
> And how about giving us some feedback on your lacquer based FP as to durability and shine after you test it for a bit.  I love my "Mylands" but it's also awful expensive.  This sounds like a possibly great alternative!   Thanks!




Bob,
Yes, the 3 is the multiplier for the shellac. You may want to play with it. This is just what I found works for me.

Yes, I will report on the durability and shine of the laquer FP.


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## Thumbs (Aug 14, 2005)

Thanks, Greg!  We'll be waiting![]


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## Fred in NC (Aug 14, 2005)

Shellac is flakes dissolved in DNA.  The usual way to describe it is in "pound cuts."  

A pound cut means one lb of shellac flakes in a gallon of DNA, 3 pound cut means 3 lbs of shellac in a gallon of DNA, etc.


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## GregD (Aug 14, 2005)

Sorry, I should have made this clear. I used 3 TPS of 3# cut shellac.


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## jwoodwright (Aug 14, 2005)

The only downside is shellac has a short useable lifespan.  I worked in a cabinet shop one summer and shellac was made up fresh, as needed.


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## melogic (Aug 15, 2005)

Thanks Greg for all of this wonderful info. I just turned a cushion grip pen out of Dyamond wood and used this brew just a you stated and I can't beleive the acrylic-like finish it gave me. My wife is hooked on this and she is ready to turn more pens just to finish them. I did put a top coat of TSW just to get the slick finish and protection. As soon as I can get a good photo to show off the shine I will post it here. Thanks again!


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## GregD (Aug 15, 2005)

That's good Mark. I'm glad I could help someone. I've got to get some TSW. I haven't tried it yet. Too many other things need my money.


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## MDWine (Aug 15, 2005)

GregD!!  I'm intrigued with the 1 part lacquer/ 1 part thinner/ 1 part BLO mixture.  Did you apply this just like a friction polish?  Lathe running?  Did you need to sand/MM/buff afterward?

I think I'd like to try this one.  Would you like to give us a few more details about how you applied it and how it finished?  (I, for one, would really appreciate it!)

TIA!


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## GregD (Aug 15, 2005)

Mike,
Yes, I applied it just as I would friction polish with the lathe on. I'm not really happy with the finish. I thought it would have more gloss.I'm still working on it. I guess the next step is MM or buffing.


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## Thumbs (Aug 15, 2005)

Mark,  Which mix did you use?  The shellac base or the lacquer base?


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## Thumbs (Aug 15, 2005)

OK, now I'm gonna reveal how ignorant I really am!  What happens when you mix a lacquer base finish with a shellac based finish?  Does it turn to crud?  Never dry?  Explode and burn?  Anybody admit to ever trying this?[?]

Stop Laughin'!  Just tell me!


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## GregD (Aug 15, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Thumbs_
> <br />OK, now I'm gonna reveal how ignorant I really am!  What happens when you mix a lacquer base finish with a shellac based finish?  Does it turn to crud?  Never dry?  Explode and burn?  Anybody admit to ever trying this?[?]
> 
> Stop Laughin'!  Just tell me!



It pretty much turns to crud, as you put it.


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## Thumbs (Aug 15, 2005)

Thanks, Greg!  I guess I was just hoping for the best of both and got the worst of both instead!  Like usual![V]


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## melogic (Aug 16, 2005)

Bob I used the shellac based finish just as stated in Greg's earlier post. I put 3 scoops of shellac, 1 scoop of BLO, 1 scoop of Denatured Alcohol and 2 scoops of Mineral Spirits. The Finish is the highest gloss I've ever had on a pen and it looks like I glazed the wood with clear plastic or something. I applied it by just touching the corner of a cotton cloth in the mixture and holding it on the pen as it was turning on my lathe until the cloth was dry. Then I used a clean part of the cloth to buff the blank and then I applied a coat of TSW. My wife and daughter turned about 5 or 6 more pens this evening and they look fantastic. As soon as I can get a picture to show the gloss I will post it here.


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## melogic (Aug 16, 2005)

Here is a picture of the cushion grip pen I turned and finished with the shellac brew.





<br />


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## Thumbs (Aug 16, 2005)

Thanks, Mark!  I've used Crystal Coat, Shellawax, and Mylands Shellac based FP's.  The Mylands seems far superior to the others so the proper mix is apparently the important part.  If you look at the way the solutions separate after standing for awhile, it is quite apparent that the solutions contain differing quantities of the various substances.  I just don't know which is which![]


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## Thumbs (Aug 16, 2005)

That was fast![:0]

<b>Mark</b>, I know this may sound silly but could you also post a picture of your solution in a bottle so I could see how it separates proportionally?  I know, just a big PIA!  <b>BTW</b>, that looks very similar to a Mylands finish![]


Another <b>BTW</b>:  With Mylands it still seems to work best if you let "cure" a couple days before you handle the pens very much........  FWIW


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## Old Griz (Aug 16, 2005)

> _Originally posted by melogic_
> <br />Bob I used the shellac based finish just as stated in Greg's earlier post. I put 3 scoops of shellac, 1 scoop of BLO, 1 scoop of Denatured Alcohol and 2 scoops of Mineral Spirits. The Finish is the highest gloss I've ever had on a pen and it looks like I glazed the wood with clear plastic or something. I applied it by just touching the corner of a cotton cloth in the mixture and holding it on the pen as it was turning on my lathe until the cloth was dry. Then I used a clean part of the cloth to buff the blank and then I applied a coat of TSW. My wife and daughter turned about 5 or 6 more pens this evening and they look fantastic. As soon as I can get a picture to show the gloss I will post it here.




The finish on the pen looks great... my question is how does it hold up... shellac finishes are not known for durability... 
Have you done a pen with that finish and used it for a long while to test the durability... 
I am not trying to be a Wise Guy, we all know that the finish will sell a pen... but the durability will keep the customer happy and make him refer others back to you..


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## Fred in NC (Aug 16, 2005)

Tom, I have the same concerns about shellac.  I use it only as a sanding sealer.

However, if the wood is highly polished before the shellac based friction polish is applied, it will get a natural finish or patina.  See Russ Fairfield's comments on this.


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## alamocdc (Aug 16, 2005)

Greg, I've been using the same "lacquer" based FP you made up and have experienced a rather wide variety of finishes with it. I always use a lacquer sanding sealer in the sanding process and MM to polish the barrels prior to applying the FP. Sometimes I get a rather satiny finish, sometimes a get a semi-gloss and sometimes I get a high gloss, but I have yet to achieve the kind of high gloss I get with Mylands. I don't know if the type of wood makes the difference, or if it may be the number of coats applied and the time between them. I'm still experimenting with that right now, but it apprears that at least 3 coats with about 30 minutes (15 minimum) between them yields the best result for me. As for durability, the jury is still out, but it appears that this will be considerably more durable than my other FPs. Provided it is allowed to cure properly.


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## melogic (Aug 16, 2005)

I was wondering the same thing that Tom is saying, "How long will it last?" I would have thought shellac would last a long time, but I don't know a lot about the durability of the finishes.


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## Ron in Drums PA (Aug 16, 2005)

Shellac mixed from flakes will last a maximum of 6 months.

Zinsser has a premixed shellac that has a shelf life of 3 years.

http://tinyurl.com/b87rt


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## Old Griz (Aug 16, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Ron in Drums PA_
> <br />Shellac mixed from flakes will last a maximum of 6 months.
> 
> Zinsser has a premixed shellac that has a shelf life of 3 years.
> ...



Ron, we are discussing how long the finish will last without wearing off, not the life of the shellac


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## Ron in Drums PA (Aug 16, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Old Griz_
> <br />
> 
> 
> ...



[B)] Sorry about that, I guess I should read more closely.

There are 300 year old violins with shellac finishes that are still in use and the shellac has held up.


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## alamocdc (Aug 16, 2005)

Ron is correct, Mark, but that is straight shellac that was allowed to cure for months. No wax or oil mixed with it, but this has been brought up before.


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## DCBluesman (Aug 16, 2005)

> _Originally posted by melogic_
> <br />I was wondering the same thing that Tom is saying, "How long will it last?" I would have thought shellac would last a long time, but I don't know a lot about the durability of the finishes.


In the responses to your question, Mark, there is about 3% valid data and 97% supposition.  A properly applied finish consisting of boiled linseed oil (BLO), shellac flakes or buttons and denatured alcohol is a very durable finish, once it has cured.  The trick is the curing time.  If you are using the home-made shellac as your only finish, the items should ideally not be handled for a week...maybe two.  The upside is that the shellac will continue to cure for many months, possibly years, adding to it's durability over time.

Many woodworkers complain about the lack of durability of a friction finish, but the facts do not support their conclusions.  Most, if not all, of the commercially manufactured shellac-based friction finishes are highly contaminated mixtures which include water, waxes and other oils which are used to extend the shelf life of the shellac (usually 6-12 months when mixed with denatured alcohol only).  These contaminants compromise both the structural integrity of the friction polish and its durability.  These additives also allow the manufacturers to emulsify to mixture to some degree.  Without these contaminants, shellac forms a water resistant finish that is also largely impervious to alcohol and body acids.

The addition of BLO to the shellac/alcohol mixture adds yet another degree of hardness.  BLO is raw linseed oil which has had heavy metals added to speed up the drying time and to add to durability of the dried finish.  BLO, while not truly boiled, is often polymerized by heating the raw linseed oil to approximately 300-degrees fahrenheit (in the absence of oxygen, it will not boil at that temperature) where the small molecules combine to yield larger molecules of the original, only lined up to form a tight bond.  It is this polymerization that adds hardness and durability.

All of this is not to say that shellac-based friction polish is better or worse than the plastics (CA, many lacquers, polyurethane).  Heck, you can preserve just about anything in a shiny display by encapsulating it in a thick coat of plastic and polishing it.  I've seen rattlesnake heads, tarantulas and even human body parts preserved this way.

The real choice comes down to how you want your work displayed and what efforts you are willing to take to get that result.


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## JimGo (Aug 16, 2005)

> _Originally posted by DCBluesman_
> <br />The real choice comes down to how you want your work displayed and what efforts you are willing to take to get that result.


<br /> ...and how long you're willing to wait.


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## Thumbs (Aug 16, 2005)

As I said I've used several different shellac based friction polishes and there is a decided difference in their durability and appearance in a relatively short period of time.  The Mylands seems to be the best.  And it appears very different from the other brands after it settles out.  That's why I asked how the home made solution looked after it had settled out.  It doesn't take very long to settle.  I don't know about the long term durability of any finish because I've only been making pens for a short time.  But cure time does have an effect on the friction polishes most definitely.  The big problem is keeping your hands off your pretty pen after you've finished it!  It says "finished", right? [}]


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## Thumbs (Aug 16, 2005)

Actually, I'm waiting and willing to try the Enduro, too.  I'm just not sure I can be that patient!  (Sigh!)[][]


<b>Edit Note:</b>
<b>Hint!</b> This a <b>BroadBand Hint</b> to somebody!  <b>Hint! Hint!</b>


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## wdcav1952 (Aug 16, 2005)

Gee Bob, I'm glad you aren't given to hinting for things!  Tell you what, let's cut up my Red, White, and Blue corian on your Grizzly bandsaw and I will remember to bring the samples of Enduro I promised.  Yes, I will bring my offering for the Wood Sanctuary also.  Call or send me a PM and we'll find a time.





> _Originally posted by Thumbs_
> <br />Actually, I'm waiting and willing to try the Enduro, too.  I'm just not sure I can be that patient!  (Sigh!)[][]
> 
> 
> ...


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## Thumbs (Aug 18, 2005)

I hate to say how disappointed I am but when you hit some people with a broadside from a broadband hint and they still don't get the hit![V]  "They" must have an extra layer of superdurable armour all over their hulls!  (Get the naval parlance?) [}]





<b>And he fires another point blank broadside!  Comes about and fires another!  Ahoy there!</b>  Must really be blank broadsides.  That would explain all the missing wood![] Oy vey!  I mean Ahoy![}]


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## Jerry Crice (Aug 18, 2005)

Greg, I made up a batch of your fp and got a really good shine on Zebrawood. How long should I let it cure prior to use? I use my pens frequently and will keep you posted on how durable it is.


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## GregD (Aug 19, 2005)

Jerry, I don't know. It depends a lot on humidity. I usually let mine sit for at least a week before I touch them. 
I've been useing the same pen and pencil set that I turned when I first started making pens a year ago. They look as good now as the day I turned them. Others have worn off the finish within a week.
I think the thing here is to learn the word "patina". Until someone comes up with a fairly inexpensive & durable finish for pens, the finish is going to wear off.


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