# Ebonite question



## ragz (Nov 14, 2011)

For any and all users of ebonite

Has anyone ever had a case of ebonite expanding or shrinking from either the work done on the piece possibly getting too hot or from a finish applied?

I had a body and cap that when I threaded was fine but a day later the cap feels sloppy. The pen went from lathe to sitting on a countertop with no use. Maybe a bad rod of ebonite??


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## Texatdurango (Nov 14, 2011)

ragz said:


> For any and all users of ebonite
> 
> Has anyone ever had a case of ebonite expanding or shrinking from either the work done on the piece possibly getting too hot or from a finish applied?
> 
> I had a body and cap that when I threaded was fine but a day later the cap feels sloppy. The pen went from lathe to sitting on a countertop with no use. Maybe a bad rod of ebonite??


Can't say that I've ever had an ebonite blank react this way.  Of course I wet sand with water and go slow enough to never build up any heat and when I drill, I spray water with a drop of detergent where I am drilling.  Heat may be the enemy but I never leat heat build up at all.


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## ragz (Nov 14, 2011)

George
I wet sanded as well and don't think I ever let the blank get hot. I learned early on the hard way from letting blanks get too hot.I'm really at a loss as to why it would be this way.


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## BRobbins629 (Nov 14, 2011)

Never happened to me but the only explanation I could think of is that the material, either the cap or the bottom barrel was compressed when threading.  Was it very tight in a collet when you threaded it?  It is rubber and it will compress.  Some rubber products take a while to recover to their original state.  I doubt that heat alone or a finish would cause this.


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## IPD_Mr (Nov 14, 2011)

Another possibility is the source of the Ebonite.  Not all ebonite is the same.  There is some that comes out of India that people have complained about in the past.


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## ragz (Nov 14, 2011)

Hmm when threading the portions being worked were extended out of the collet maybe an inch. It's possible the collet was too tight and maybe distorted it. I don't think the source I got the ebonite from uses anything from India but I might call and ask them.


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## ragz (Nov 21, 2011)

If any are curious I think I know what the culprit of my issue was...

I used the wrong finish on the ebonite. Instead of lacquer for the clear coat I shot urethane on the it. Need to put greater separation between the hobbies so I don't grab airbrushing items and use on woodworking items.


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## PenMan1 (Nov 21, 2011)

Well, I'll be the one to "fess" up, here. It has happened to me ON MORE THAN ONE OCCASION!

In all but (possibly) one case, IT WAS ALWAYS MY FAULT. I make almost exclusively "alternative materials" and I use the lathe at full speed on those materials. I have actually made ebonite SO hot that it was almost an "S" shape on the tube.

I also tried to put the "same shine" on ebonite as I do on PR. I found that polishing at high speed did make it shinier but exposed all of the "unpretty" chararistics of ebonite.

Since I turned down the lathe speed and wet polish AT THE LOWEST LATHE SPEED, I have found that the quality of the Ebonite that I have been purchasing has increased GREATLY.

Respectfully submitted!


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## PenMan1 (Nov 21, 2011)

Since my days of retiring from the lathe "Indy 500", the only finishing material I use on ebonite are either Flitz, Brasso, or Tire black.

My THERORY of ebonite is that IT DOES EXPAND AND CONTRACT. Ebonite is essentially 'sorta rubber". Try filling a tire with air at ambient temp of 32 degrees, measure the diameter and width, THEN GO TO DAYTONE FLORIDA 500 and run the tire with the same "air" at 200 MPH in Florida heat, THEN measure the diameter and width again, SURPRISE, SURPRISE!


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## IPD_Mr (Nov 21, 2011)

Andy I agree with you and don't feel that ebonite has to have a finish put on it.  Look at the old vintage pens from the teens by Waterman and Conklin.  These never had a lacquer finish on them.


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## Texatdurango (Nov 21, 2011)

ragz said:


> If any are curious I think I know what the culprit of my issue was...
> 
> *I used the wrong finish on the ebonite.*  Instead of lacquer for the clear coat *I shot urethane on the it*.  Need to put greater separation between the hobbies so I don't grab airbrushing items and use on woodworking items.


 
Oh my....... Lacquer or urethane over Ebonite!  Please tell me that you are just messing with us to get our reactions! :wink:

I think one of the largest draws to Ebonite other than it being a material used on many vintage pens, is that it FEELS so good in my hand.  I can write forever with a pen that is solid ebonite or has an ebonite section because it's warm and soft not cold and slippery like a metal kit section.  

I do get a decent semi gloss finish just from buffing and while my Ebonite finishes don't rival the glossy looks of my acrylics, I don't want them to!


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## Texatdurango (Nov 21, 2011)

PenMan1 said:


> Since my days of retiring from the lathe "Indy 500", the only finishing material I use on ebonite are either Flitz, Brasso, or Tire black.
> 
> My THERORY of ebonite is that IT DOES EXPAND AND CONTRACT. Ebonite is essentially 'sorta rubber". Try filling a tire with air at ambient temp of 32 degrees, measure the diameter and width, THEN GO TO DAYTONE FLORIDA 500 and run the tire with the same "air" at 200 MPH in Florida heat, THEN measure the diameter and width again, SURPRISE, SURPRISE!


 
So if I understand correctly, If I have an ebonite pen in hand and write really, really, really fast, the pen will likely swell up in my hand especially in the summer time! :biggrin:


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## Timebandit (Nov 21, 2011)

Texatdurango said:


> PenMan1 said:
> 
> 
> > Since my days of retiring from the lathe "Indy 500", the only finishing material I use on ebonite are either Flitz, Brasso, or Tire black.
> ...



Yep....thats right .....................only i dont think your old hands could write that fast George............especially in the summer time:biggrin:


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## PenMan1 (Nov 21, 2011)

Texatdurango said:


> PenMan1 said:
> 
> 
> > Since my days of retiring from the lathe "Indy 500", the only finishing material I use on ebonite are either Flitz, Brasso, or Tire black.
> ...


 
George.
You and I no longer have to worry about this delima! Upon issuance of the AARP card, the handwriting goes from "fast" to "half-fast":biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

So we can now only expect halfassed handwriting results.


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## IPD_Mr (Nov 21, 2011)

I sure am glad the two of you live so far apart. I think it would be dangerous if you two got together for some shop fun.    Then again some of us youngins might learn a thing or two.  Funny you mentioned the AARP card.  Personally I am looking forward to getting mine, never thought I would make it that far. :tongue:


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## ragz (Nov 21, 2011)

To be clear I intended to shoot lacquer and not urethane. When reaching for a clear I mistakenly grabbed a urethane midcoat clear. Since ebonite is rubber and urethane will attack rubber it expanded the body parts here and there and makes for a lasting odor to the pen.

I will disagree that ebonite does not need a finish for 2 reasons. 

1 Ebonite when heated does produce an odor on the sulfur side of burning rubber. which can be noticeable when you turn it. Depending on your ebonite the heat generated by your body from then pen held in say a shirt pocket can heat the pen enough for a slight sulfurous odor sealing the ebonite in lacquer prevents this.

2 Take a look at any of the Japanese made ebonite pens with urushi finishes. Urushi is a lacquer. Different than our readily available nitrocellulose lacquers but still a lacquer. The effects that can be done with lacquer on ebonite can be in a word, amazing.

There will be those that prefer unfinished ebonite and those that do not.
I've finished ebonite raw and with lacquer and there are benefits to both.

The other day I grabbed the wrong bottle and shot urethane instead of lacquer directly onto ebonite. Lesson learned and thought I'd share


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## PenMan1 (Nov 21, 2011)

Bill:

IMHO, the ONLY reason to use Ebonite is to commerate the glory of a product from a byegone era. There are much easier materials to use that render snazzier results (i.e. Lucite).

By putting a finish over Ebonite, you restrict its ability to develop a "patina" that, IMHO, enhances the elegence of vintage pens. To this day, I still respect the feel of a 40+ year old vintage, Ebonite pen more than any other material (with the possible execption of REAL, vintage Bakelite).

The japanese DO sometimes put a very special finish over ebonite. The Japanese also eat raw fish and kill whales. There is NOTHING wrong with any of these practices, just something I would never do.

Respectfully submitted.


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## ragz (Nov 21, 2011)

Andy,

I do agree with you on the use of ebonite. I'm not suggesting putting a finish on the swirled types of ebonite either. If I put lacquer to ebonite it's on plain black. Plain black ebonite is more versatile for finishes and is cheaper also then the swirled cumberland type rods. Using black ebonite and lacquer to me is commerating the vintage urushi type pens. While I can't get urushi stateside there are techniques I can do the emulate SOME of the urushi techniques like maki-e and shibo urushi and the tactile type finishes which I was shooting for before I grabbed the urethane. 

The only finishes I apply are to wood, ebonite and motorcyle helmets like below. Urethane produces great effects on non rubber parts  Lacquer and urethane both melt into each other and translucents give neat effects.


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## Kaspar (Nov 27, 2011)

My one experience with ebonite so far suggests that low and slow is the way to finish it.  It is rubber, and easily creates friction, and even if you don't overheat it (which is always a no-no) you can still heat it up enough that the surface become malleable and dulls rather than polishes.  It would, I think, be the equivalent of polishing metal so fast and hot that it begins to soften.

Except for urushi, I would bother with laquering either.  To get it nice and shiny for picture taking or in general?  It's rubber: put some ArmourAll on it, or Novus One if you've got it.


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