# Are emperor pens really worth it?



## edstreet

This is something I have posed for some time now.  I also have always wanted one so I decided to bite the bullet and do it.  The problem is now that I did I am hesitant on the series.  After taking photo's and going over them I noticed several things that struck me as odd.

First I need to say when you take photo's at the detail that I do you will see just about every flaw there is.  Good, bad and the ugly comes out and what I saw in this series I first thought was a major deal.  The more I looked and the more I ask the more I found myself questioning my high standards on this.

Due to photo size restrictions the main flaw that I see is not very visible, but I will try.

first it is the matting between the gold insert and the rhodium frame, the angles does not match with the design in the gold insert and it is grossly off. 






The black arrow on the RIGHT is the key point that I first noticed, BTW this is the small end cap on the bottom of the pen, In the above photo the distance is approx 1/4" left to right.  The left black arrow is the variation in distance between the valley's, also the high spot ridges than seem to be ugly chipped looking corners, possibly flaws from manufacturing.












Note the first image, the gold ring band right after the fish and square seems lumpy compared to the rhodium, well that is because it is.  Oh and yes that is casting flaws you see.






Second The pattern in the end caps, clip, center band and blending in all these places are well across the board.





















Yup all different and somewhat dysfunctional but workable if used properly.  Which means not just any blank will flow.



Third. It is worth nothing that yes that gold ring band on the cap looks off.





Yup it is.  The square box on the left side, center and right side is not the same height. The whole band is skewed, this is not a casting problem.  This is another design problem.



Fourth.  We still see the plastic insert in the cap, yet the clip is reinforced and the buttcap is press in rather than screw in like in the gents/statesman series.  I can see this being an annoyance to some, mostly in rollerball setup.




This has been a somewhat common theme in this series with plastic being shaved off and the plastic cap not making good contact or staying in place.  It is pressed into place rather and can/does come off.


I have been told by several things like 'these emperors, they are good sellers', 'if you have that many problems with it why not return it?' and 'this is nitpicking/perfectionism'.  Bottom line is I wanted one and now I have one.  My leaning now is perhaps I have/had unrealistic expectations.


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## johncrane

The Rolls Royce is a bit of a let down! send it back


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## Dan Hintz

Some things, such as the flare gap, look fine to me and may even be considered a design feature rather than a flaw.  The poor molding, however, is not just a lack of feature detail... it looks very amateurish from a quality standpoint.  I consider pens with those type of detail failures to be a couple (few?) hundred dollars, max (at least if I was the purchaser).  If I was paying more, the pen had better have very sharp details (that first pic is scary... looks almost like they tried to fix it with some solder).

Just MHO...


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## darrin1200

Thank you very much for the review. I have been thinking of trying this kit as a top of the line model. The extreme high cost has kept me from getting one to sample.

I have always heard that these were very popular high quality components. Based from your review, I don't think I will be adding this to my regular collection. 

That being said, this is only one example. Can anyone chime in with their experiences with this kit. I love the design, even the poor casting I can get by with. However I could not live with the miss aligned components. The improper sizing of those rings would make it unsaleable for me.

Once again, great review. Thanks


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## joek30296

I wasn't quite sure what an Emperor looked like, so I "googled" it and this is what popped up.  My goodness! 

Namiki Emperor Setsugekka Fountain Pen Nibs.com


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## Carl Fisher

I've never bought one as I've always considered them over priced for any kit.  Things like the skewed casting on the center band, the rough casting detail and the fact that at the end of the day it's still a kit just turn me off at that price point.

I'm sure they are good sellers for many but I just don't see the value in them.


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## edstreet

I would like to point out that at the level and detail of the photo's that I take, macro 1:1, any flaw, problems, big small or minute will show up in gory detail.  From casual observation you may be very hard pressed to see some of these problems with the naked eye.  Also with this level and amount of detail you can clearly see everything and everything does indeed have imperfections.

One person did point out to me today that the original insert, bands and the like may have been artwork done by hand, i.e. clay or similar.  Then like coin making that object reduced in size and mass produced.  This could clearly explain many aspects that I noticed.

One think that I would be curious to hear is from other people who have emperor's (oh btw this one is a junior) and the second thing would be great for me to see other emperors and possibly the bulk of things I noticed is limited to this one kit and not widespread in the entire series.

'over priced' does come to mind greatly and often on this.  I first ask myself, why the cost, the plating itself could contribute to the bulk, also fee's to the designer(s) possibly, higher production cost for quality and techniques I could also see.  That question is still unanswered.


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## Whaler

I have done 10 or so of the Jr Emperor pens over the years and have seen no imperfections. Love everything about the kit except the price.


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## OKLAHOMAN

While I can see the imperfections in these photos as Ed said with the naked you and I most likely would not and so our customers also would be hard pressed if not impossible to see them. I have sold a couple of hundred full sized Emperors for anywhere of $300 to yes over $1,000.00 and have yet have one customer complaine about the plating,design flaws,poor molding or any other aspect of the pen. 
I sometimes get a big smile on my face when someone says it's just a kit and I would never pay that much for a kit, Just about every large manufacture of pens makes them from "kits", They just manufacture their own "KITS". When I look at Pen World Magazine a Diplomat (made in Germany) a Visconity (made in Italy) or a Conway Stewart (made in England) they all have a top final, bottom final, a section, and a center band and they all produce over a thousand a week from the same parts making it a kit but thay don't call it a kit they all will tell you they make their pens from the finest componets avalible and I'll wager that if you took a photo of some at 1.1 micro you just might see a flaw or two. 
We make component sets and embellish them with custom blanks, segmented blanks, inlayed blanks, hand painted blanks, etc and so on. 
We need to stop thinking of them as kits but as the finiest componets we cand find.


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## LL Woodworks

OKLAHOMAN said:


> ...  We make component sets and embellish them with custom blanks, segmented blanks, inlayed blanks, hand painted blanks, etc and so on.
> We need to stop thinking of them as kits but as the finiest componets we cand find.



Well said Roy


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## Ulises Victoria

I have sold several full sized Emperors. I use them to make special pens like 6 stranded celtic knots, watch parts pens, etc. None of my customer has had a complaint. In fact, one of them told me that he likes better and uses more often my Emperor pen than his two Mont Blancs


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## Ed McDonnell

OKLAHOMAN said:


> While I can see the imperfections in these photos as Ed said with the naked you and I most likely would not and so our customers also would be hard pressed if not impossible to see them. I have sold a couple of hundred full sized Emperors for anywhere of $300 to yes over $1,000.00 and have yet have one customer complaine about the plating,design flaws,poor molding or any other aspect of the pen.
> I sometimes get a big smile on my face when someone says it's just a kit and I would never pay that much for a kit, Just about every large manufacture of pens makes them from "kits", They just manufacture their own "KITS". When I look at Pen World Magazine a Diplomat (made in Germany) a Visconity (made in Italy) or a Conway Stewart (made in England) they all have a top final, bottom final, a section, and a center band and they all produce over a thousand a week from the same parts making it a kit but thay don't call it a kit they all will tell you they make their pens from the finest componets avalible and I'll wager that if you took a photo of some at 1.1 micro you just might see a flaw or two.
> We make component sets and embellish them with custom blanks, segmented blanks, inlayed blanks, hand painted blanks, etc and so on.
> We need to stop thinking of them as kits but as the finiest componets we cand find.



Pen World magazine frequently shows pictures of people at pens shows with jewelers loupes.  I've always wondered whether high end pens need to look flawless at 10x or 20x.  That would be a really tall order to meet.  But is that the standard?

Ed


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## mikespenturningz

That is why you rarely see me say kit I always say hardware set. That was very well put Oklahoman.


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## OKLAHOMAN

parklandturner said:


> OKLAHOMAN said:
> 
> 
> 
> While I can see the imperfections in these photos as Ed said with the naked you and I most likely would not and so our customers also would be hard pressed if not impossible to see them. I have sold a couple of hundred full sized Emperors for anywhere of $300 to yes over $1,000.00 and have yet have one customer complaine about the plating,design flaws,poor molding or any other aspect of the pen.
> I sometimes get a big smile on my face when someone says it's just a kit and I would never pay that much for a kit, Just about every large manufacture of pens makes them from "kits", They just manufacture their own "KITS". When I look at Pen World Magazine a Diplomat (made in Germany) a Visconity (made in Italy) or a Conway Stewart (made in England) they all have a top final, bottom final, a section, and a center band and they all produce over a thousand a week from the same parts making it a kit but thay don't call it a kit they all will tell you they make their pens from the finest componets avalible and I'll wager that if you took a photo of some at 1.1 micro you just might see a flaw or two.
> We make component sets and embellish them with custom blanks, segmented blanks, inlayed blanks, hand painted blanks, etc and so on.
> We need to stop thinking of them as kits but as the finiest componets we cand find.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pen World magazine frequently shows pictures of people at pens shows with jewelers loupes. I've always wondered whether high end pens need to look flawless at 10x or 20x. That would be a really tall order to meet. But is that the standard?
> 
> Ed
Click to expand...

 Ed, your  right at pen shows the person with the loupe is #1 looking at the nib and #2 also is not the general public but is a pen expert.


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## Carl Fisher

Well, you know what they say about opinions...be it mine or anyone else since I assume Roy's comments were directed at me as I'm the only one that mentioned "just a kit"

I know they are very popular and relative to other "kits" usually bring in higher dollar sales, but I just don't care for them personally and don't see the value over a good stainless "kit" or hand made components.  Again just my opinion.


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## SteveG

I sell my "kit" pens to a group that is primarily making impulse purchases. Emperor style pens are part of the mix. I have two observations base on my experience. 

1. The much higher priced Emperor based pens serve to allow the impulse buyer justify in his or her mind the other choices that cost less.

2. The Emperors do sell, albeit less frequently. These sales generally are still impulse buys. These customers simply have more heavy-duty credit cards.

I am not selling at a pen show, and the only loupe I have seen at my sales table is mine. None the less, I appreciated the macro views of the kit, and thus can be more judicious when sharing a "Loupe View" with a potential customer. 

Thanks for the post.
Steve


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## Chasper

If this were a forum for artists whose medium is watercolor, oils, acrylic or other paint mediums, would we be discussing the quality of canvas as a primary factor in valuing our art? (Not that that is what Ed was specifically doing in his original post, he was just pointing out that there are a lot of flaws for something that costs so much)  

This is and should be a forum of artists whose primary medium is writing instruments.  The component sets we use are analogous to the canvas upon which a brush artists paints.  I acknowledge that there are quality standards for pen components as there are for canvas.  Personally I feel there is too much emphasis on the quality of the components and the performance of the tools, at the expense of the true art form that we practice.

*Stepping out from behind my easel, removing my beret and taking a bow while dodging the $2 pen kits that are being hurled at me*


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## ed4copies

Gerry, you never struck me as "the beret type"!!:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:


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## OKLAHOMAN

Carl Fisher said:


> Well, you know what they say about opinions...be it mine or anyone else since I assume Roy's comments were directed at me as I'm the only one that mentioned "just a kit"
> 
> I know they are very popular and relative to other "kits" usually bring in higher dollar sales, but I just don't care for them personally and don't see the value over a good stainless "kit" or hand made components. Again just my opinion.


 
Carl, my post was not ment to say your opinon on the Emperor was wrong as we all have them, opinions that is. I personally would rather buy an Emperor over a Gent 1, but your right a good Stainless, Sterling, or Damascus components  are heads and heels over the Emperor or any other imported component set.


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## Carl Fisher

OKLAHOMAN said:


> Carl Fisher said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, you know what they say about opinions...be it mine or anyone else since I assume Roy's comments were directed at me as I'm the only one that mentioned "just a kit"
> 
> I know they are very popular and relative to other "kits" usually bring in higher dollar sales, but I just don't care for them personally and don't see the value over a good stainless "kit" or hand made components. Again just my opinion.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Carl, my post was not ment to say your opinon on the Emperor was wrong as we all have them, opinions that is. I personally would rather buy an Emperor over a Gent 1, but your right a good Stainless, Sterling, or Damascus components  are heads and heels over the Emperor or any other imported component set.
Click to expand...


Nah, wasn't taken as a negative.  Just wanted to clarify that my opinion wasn't really based on the fact that it was only just a kit.  

Heck there are a lot of component sets out there that I strongly dislike and won't make but that is a conversation not relevant to Ed's post :biggrin:


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## anthonyd

I have made five of them and the Emperor is my favourite pen kit. The fountain pens are smoother to write with than any other fountain pen kits that I have tried and I have tried many. As far as price, penblanks.ca has great quantity pricing on the titanium ones. 

Tony


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## 08K.80

I agree, that is unacceptable for an expensive kit.

I don't think I could take advantage of someone by selling them something that looks like that, for hundreds or thousands of dollars. I would imagine that someone spending that kind of money, is going to inspect it with a lope.

I've noticed people using component and component sets rather than kit. Is this to give the impression of better quality? A component is only a part of a larger whole. A set of components to be assembled is defined as a kit. So, unless a person is making all of the components themselves, these are kits.


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## 76winger

I've made 2 or 3 full size emperors and have some Juniors ready to be made. I'll take a look at them when I get home and see if I can pull any differences out with some close up shots.


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## OKLAHOMAN

Kelly two things, if you took a  20 x lope to just about anything you would see faults but you will not see them with the naked eye as Ed said in his second post with his micro lens he was able to photograph them but with the naked eye you would not and I have sold many, many and never seen those faults or had a single customer complaint and I have had lopes taken out to inspect the nib but never the parts. Which takes us to the second thing the definition of component from Webster's new world dictionary  :serving as one of the parts of a whole
and as these parts serve as parts of the pens we make they are components 
Definition of the word kit in the same dictionary : an assembly of pieces to make a whole such as an airplane kit 
We happen to make one of the pieces and in some cases more so there are missing components or kit parts so they are not complete kits rather a set of components. 
And we who call the components instead of kits do it for the same reason ...yes to upgrade the hobby from a craft to an art.    


08K.80 said:


> I agree, that is unacceptable for an expensive kit.
> 
> I don't think I could take advantage of someone by selling them something that looks like that, for hundreds or thousands of dollars. I would imagine that someone spending that kind of money, is going to inspect it with a lope.
> 
> I've noticed people using component and component sets rather than kit. Is this to give the impression of better quality? A component is only a part of a larger whole. A set of components to be assembled is defined as a kit. So, unless a person is making all of the components themselves, these are kits.


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## panamag8or

mikespenturningz said:


> That is why you rarely see me say kit I always say hardware set. That was very well put Oklahoman.



Same here... it's always hardware or components.


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## edstreet

76winger said:


> I've made 2 or 3 full size emperors and have some Juniors ready to be made. I'll take a look at them when I get home and see if I can pull any differences out with some close up shots.



Thank you


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## 08K.80

OKLAHOMAN,
A kit doesn't require that it has all of the parts or components to complete the project.
As an example, a friend of my husband is building an exotic kit car. It is called a kit but, it lacks many of the components to complete the car. It needs a full drive-line for one of the missing components along with other stuff.
Even with the Webster's definition, it doesn't state it requires all of the components to complete the model airplane. It still requires glue and paint, which are additional components as would be the blanks for pens.
Which ever way a person chooses to call them, it still indicates purchased parts.
Thanks for explaining why some call them components and if it works, then it isn't broken. It can just be a little confusing to new people to the craft/art.:wink:


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## edstreet

I took a Statesman JR, a full size statesman that I did years ago (long before they had postable options), a venus that I did recently, a gent that was also somewhat recent and this emperor.  This is the same part that we seen in my original post but more glamor shot worthy.

Well some history, the Full size statesman is a fountain pen, I did use it some but very little. Mostly over the past how ever many years it has lived in my coffee mug cup that is older than dirt.  Very little wear and hardly ever used.  The venus has been a show model and there has been nothing but good things to say about that, even from IAP threads here and I have used it often, before I get beat up for it that pen is a polymer clay by Toni.
The gent has been used slightly but not much at all. I have done some more abuse on it willingly but mostly for testing.


---






As we can see, super super light use here and we have some serious scratching going on.  Usability is good and this amount of 'damage' is not notable by the naked eye just yet but any type of real world usage will likely see much more.  I would like to point everyone's attention to the SCRATCH PATTERNS, is that consistent with PLATING?  This is a Gent JR postable rollerball pen. 

Next up we have the small end on a venus pen.  Remember this is a show pen and never subjected to abuse, been in a pen bag or clear holder most of it's life.




Here we see a very rough sloped surface that shows some bad cleanup marks before plating, possibly some issues with plating itself and the 'bling diamond' that is plastic of some sorts  has several dot chips all around the edges, *NOT* on the top where would be consistent with wear.


Next is the statesman senior.





Here we see some weird marks on the inside lip by the insert. 


Here we have a statesman JR





Oh yea, yes it is out of round, ever so slightly to but yes, not true.


How about center bands?










Hmmm, full size old vs new jr has different patterns.  Also note in second image how the black Ti band is not flat on top or bottom, it's wavy.  Also the alignment of each block is decent for each other but for top/bottom it's not quite there but close.  Edges look upturned like it was hammered to be flat and caused a lip on the top.





I had to tie in the emperor with these to get some compare going on.  Here is a more glamor shot showing the top cap out of focus in the background and the center band with a statesman JR band in the foreground.







statesman Jr postable, statesman non-postable, emperor Jr with the polymer clay venus by Toni Ransfield.





Same setup but showing the reflectiveness of the emperor jr.


And finally the 'group shot'
















In case anyone is wondering:  All shots done at ISO 100.  The bulk of the shots are done at F/22 and 1/200 (some caps at 1/125), with the exception of the very last image.  It was shot in manual mode at F/29 and 1/200.  I hand hold and do not use a tripod (I do own 4 tripods).  Lighting was done inside a light tent with a photogenic 500W/S monolight on a direct path at 1/8 to 1/4 power.  Lastly camera is a canon Kiss Digital X with a sigma 50mm 1:1 macro lens in manual focus.

This is 'direct path'





As opposed to 'bounce path'





And lastly inside the light tent I use


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## 76winger

OK, it took a little longer for me to get these than I expected, but here's closeups of a full-sized Emperor I have on hand still. 

First the lower (body) finial, it looks a lot like the Jr., with maybe cleaner lines. 





The larger cap finial has a lot more room between the lines, and also over all looks pretty good, but you do see the micro scratched in various spots, and to the left there is one line that narrows down from lack of material. 





I believe I can see some "slight" variations in the positioning of the squares on the cap ring.





I don't see anything noticably wrong with the clip. Detail seems pretty even across the length. 





Center band ornaments seem pretty evenly positioned, but the the one just below the center line of the photo looks slightly twisted. 





And the lower band looks pretty evenly spaced, but a few imperfections showing. 






As has already been discussed, these are very close-up shots that really bring out details that aren't even perceivable to the naked eye however, as evidenced by the whole pen photos I posted of this pen about a year ago (click to see the larger copies in MPA):


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## bwftex

Does someone have aMontblanc, Visconti , Aurora or high end European pen they can take some close ups of so we can see how they look?  I was never much interested in pens until I started making them so my personal experience with fine pens (other than the ones I make  has been limited. I have a friend who has a Visconti that set him back a few grand. Its is a marvelous pen. It absolutely reaks of class and quality and writes like a dream.


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## Dan Hintz

Dave, your kit appears to be in significantly better shape than Ed's... the imperfections you point out are relatively minor, and I would feel significantly more comfortable selling that set of bits in a higher end pen ($1k?).  Beyond that price point, however, I truly would want perfect bits/baubles... likely something of my own construction.


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## edstreet

Dan Hintz said:


> Dave, your kit appears to be in significantly better shape than Ed's... the imperfections you point out are relatively minor, and I would feel significantly more comfortable selling that set of bits in a higher end pen ($1k?).  Beyond that price point, however, I truly would want perfect bits/baubles... likely something of my own construction.



I have a few questions and concerns here.

first, what is 'perfect'?  there is nothing that is perfect, everything has flaws.  To what degree do you draw the line with acceptability.  If you look closely at the link he provided you will see the lower band is also at a cant angle.  If you look at the center band on the left you will see it looks ok, look on the RIGHT side you will notice a non parallel end.  The other think is the very very first photo I posted is at most 0.25" from left edge to right edge of the photo.  

The larger size pen vs the Jr also makes the difference as well.  Not only is there more real estate to work with but you have number of units made for that specific mold which apparently the junior that I have has a higher count on that specific mold.




			
				bwftex said:
			
		

> Does someone have aMontblanc, Visconti , Aurora or high end European pen they can take some close ups of so we can see how they look? I was never much interested in pens until I started making them so my personal experience with fine pens (other than the ones I make  has been limited. I have a friend who has a Visconti that set him back a few grand. Its is a marvelous pen. It absolutely reaks of class and quality and writes like a dream.



Sadly I do not but if someone does and would like to send it to me I will take several photo's of them and mail them back.

Also I am curious why everyone judges a pen by the way it writes, which is purely a function of the ink cartridge tip (be it nib, roller ball or what not) and not by the fit, form, blending, pattern or the like of the body holder.


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## bwftex

"Also I am curious why everyone judges a pen by the way it writes, which  is purely a function of the ink cartridge tip (be it nib, roller ball or  what not) and not by the fit, form, blending, pattern or the like of  the body holder."

It's also the weight and balance that assist those things in delivering the ink to paper. But it's the way a pen looks that draws a person attention.


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## bobleibo

The Junior Emperor is my outright favorite pen. I have probably turned close to a hundred of them, the majority given as gifts and a few kept for myself. I have only turned 2 of the full sized ones and they were for a guy who has huge hands. I have never had a complaint or seen a flaw and I am pretty picky. Additionally, I have never had one come back like some others for defects. Like many have said already, if you look close enough at just about any product, you can find flaws but to the naked eye, I am very happy with these. Very stylish without being gaudy.


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## anthonyd

Also I am curious why everyone judges a pen by the way it writes, which is purely a function of the ink cartridge tip (be it nib, roller ball or what not) and not by the fit, form, blending, pattern or the like of the body holder."

It's also the weight and balance that assist those things in delivering the ink to paper. But it's the way a pen looks that draws a person attention.[/quote]

I agree that it is the look of the pen that draws you to buy it. However, for many fountain pen users the quality of the writing experience is of equal importance. Before I started making my own fountain pens I used to buy and use many name brand pens. I would go down to the fine writing instrument store near my work and frequently find pens that drew my attention. These stores let you ink the nib and see if it meets your expectations before you buy. Many of the kit nibs are not the greatest writers but the Emperor nibs are of higher quality and are a joy to write with.

Tony


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## Smitty37

Personally I think it is a stretch to call it an art form...I think of it more as a craft.   That is not to be taken as a swipe at the makers - I also have at least as much respect for craftsmen as I do artists.  And, perhaps a few of us could be thought of as artists, but most are taking a stick of wood or plastic, drilling a hole through it, putting a tube in it, taking it to our lathe and making it round, then pressing in a few plated metal components and ending up with a pen that could be and is easily mass produced to function as well as the one we make.

Now there is no question, that some perform more steps than others, making their own blanks - I have some pens in my collectioon where the person who turned the pen also made the blank, and they did som pretty d--- good work, in my opinion their blank can be called art but if I take their blank and turn it on my lathe, that doesn't make me an artist, even though it might well look exactly the same as if they turned it themselves.  This forum in my opinion is a forum for, and I believe most members are, ordinary folks who enjoy making nice pens.  And, they are very good (over all) at what they do.  





Chasper said:


> If this were a forum for artists whose medium is watercolor, oils, acrylic or other paint mediums, would we be discussing the quality of canvas as a primary factor in valuing our art? (Not that that is what Ed was specifically doing in his original post, he was just pointing out that there are a lot of flaws for something that costs so much)
> 
> This is and should be a forum of artists whose primary medium is writing instruments.  The component sets we use are analogous to the canvas upon which a brush artists paints.  I acknowledge that there are quality standards for pen components as there are for canvas.  Personally I feel there is too much emphasis on the quality of the components and the performance of the tools, at the expense of the true art form that we practice.
> 
> *Stepping out from behind my easel, removing my beret and taking a bow while dodging the $2 pen kits that are being hurled at me*


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## Smitty37

edstreet said:


> Dan Hintz said:
> 
> 
> 
> Dave, your kit appears to be in significantly better shape than Ed's... the imperfections you point out are relatively minor, and I would feel significantly more comfortable selling that set of bits in a higher end pen ($1k?).  Beyond that price point, however, I truly would want perfect bits/baubles... likely something of my own construction.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have a few questions and concerns here.
> 
> first, what is 'perfect'?  there is nothing that is perfect, everything has flaws.  To what degree do you draw the line with acceptability.  If you look closely at the link he provided you will see the lower band is also at a cant angle.  If you look at the center band on the left you will see it looks ok, look on the RIGHT side you will notice a non parallel end.  The other think is the very very first photo I posted is at most 0.25" from left edge to right edge of the photo.
> 
> The larger size pen vs the Jr also makes the difference as well.  Not only is there more real estate to work with but you have number of units made for that specific mold which apparently the junior that I have has a higher count on that specific mold.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bwftex said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Does someone have aMontblanc, Visconti , Aurora or high end European pen they can take some close ups of so we can see how they look? I was never much interested in pens until I started making them so my personal experience with fine pens (other than the ones I make  has been limited. I have a friend who has a Visconti that set him back a few grand. Its is a marvelous pen. It absolutely reaks of class and quality and writes like a dream.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sadly I do not but if someone does and would like to send it to me I will take several photo's of them and mail them back.
> 
> Also I am curious why everyone judges a pen by the way it writes, which is purely a function of the ink cartridge tip (be it nib, roller ball or what not) and not by the fit, form, blending, pattern or the like of the body holder.
Click to expand...

Because that's what pens are for - writing.  A pen that doesn't write is sort of useless.


----------



## edstreet

Smitty37 said:


> Because that's what pens are for - writing.  A pen that doesn't write is sort of useless.



Again you missed the boat.  Please actually read the thread instead of trolling on random lines.  We have a very good thread going here and I for one would not like to see it ruined by this.


----------



## rogerwaskow

I like the way you think as they are not kits but individual hand made pens. PERIOD.


----------



## Smitty37

*An Opinion*

Some excellent photography there Ed - nice work.

Now if I were going to use that pen cap to print money, I would be concerned - greatly....but if I owned it, that isn't what it would be doing.  It would be on display with the ones I do own inside a glass case.  Folks, including myself, can see it with their naked eye (or through their specticals or contacts) from no closer than about three or for inches.  At that distance none of the imperfections shown in your pictures would catch their eye.  


I've got a Emperor pen done for me by OKLAHOMAN using one of his special blanks and even if I could see such imperfections you'd only be able to get it from me by stealing it.  I have another made for me by CaptG with one of his special blanks and you'd also have to steal that one even if I knew it had the kind of imperfections that you show.  I also have a number of pens that are not emperors that fall into the same catagory.  If there are imperfections in the components, they are just not important to me.


----------



## ren-lathe

Okay folks,
I have always thought that the originator of the design  might be an artist for instance David Broadwell that designed the Penn  State Sceptors. The folks that take what they designed and added to them  are more artisans. the definition is:
*ar·ti·san*

  [ahr-tuh-zuhn]   
noun 1. a person skilled in an applied art; a craftsperson. 

2. a person or company that makes a high-quality or distinctive product in small quantities, usually by hand or using traditional methods: our favorite local food artisans.  


  adjective  3. pertaining to an artisan or the product of an artisan; artisanal: artisan beer.


----------



## Donovan

Originally Posted by bwftex
Does someone have aMontblanc, Visconti , Aurora or high end European pen they can take some close ups of so we can see how they look? I was never much interested in pens until I started making them so my personal experience with fine pens (other than the ones I make  has been limited. I have a friend who has a Visconti that set him back a few grand. Its is a marvelous pen. It absolutely reaks of class and quality and writes like a dream.

I do have a few Montblanc pens(9 in total) and I have looked at them with a 20 x loupe and yes they do have imperfections(not visible just by looking with the naked eye)  but does that bother me, not at all. When I look at a pen there is a few things that matters to me. appearance, weight and how does it fit in my hand when writing.  
Donovan


----------



## edstreet

Donovan said:


> Originally Posted by bwftex
> Does someone have aMontblanc, Visconti , Aurora or high end European pen they can take some close ups of so we can see how they look? I was never much interested in pens until I started making them so my personal experience with fine pens (other than the ones I make  has been limited. I have a friend who has a Visconti that set him back a few grand. Its is a marvelous pen. It absolutely reaks of class and quality and writes like a dream.
> 
> I do have a few Montblanc pens(9 in total) and I have looked at them with a 20 x loupe and yes they do have imperfections(not visible just by looking with the naked eye)  but does that bother me, not at all. When I look at a pen there is a few things that matters to me. appearance, weight and how does it fit in my hand when writing.
> Donovan



I would like to ask what imperfections did you see and any way to provide photo's of this?

Interesting to note is when I first saw the emperor pen in person (my first fyi) most of these problems that I posted about was very apparent to me.


The way I see it now is there are probably 2 basic approaches that people take when they view the pen and see these imperfections.  First is they think 'oh wow, hand made and i can even see some of the imperfections in the metal so this person is really really good' and second 'imperfections in the pen so pass sorry i will look elsewhere esp at that price.'


Also I now question the plating and wondering something, given the mass of the surface area and the price of the pen, if that was real 22k gold plating that was used the pen cost would be greater.  So given that what is the content in these platting.  I seriously doubt that it does indeed contain 22k gold, or even rhodium for that matter.


----------



## Smitty37

edstreet said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Because that's what pens are for - writing.  A pen that doesn't write is sort of useless.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again you missed the boat.  Please actually read the thread instead of trolling on random lines.  We have a very good thread going here and I for one would not like to see it ruined by this.
Click to expand...

No Ed, I have not missed the boat.  You asked a question in your post.  I gave you an answer to that question.  

The random line appeared in your post - if you didn't want a response to it you should not have introduced it.

You are not a moderator at this site, and you have no say in what goes into my reply's to your posts.


----------



## Smitty37

Dan Hintz said:


> Dave, your kit appears to be in significantly better shape than Ed's... the imperfections you point out are relatively minor, and I would feel significantly more comfortable selling that set of bits in a higher end pen ($1k?).  Beyond that price point, however, I truly would want perfect bits/baubles... likely something of my own construction.


 One problem with that Dan, is that most of us don't possess the skills and/or equipment to make any better than what we can buy in kits.  It sounds like you do, and I envy you - but even if I once could have gotten that good, my eyes are not sharp enough and my hands not steady enough to do it now.


----------



## Smitty37

edstreet said:


> I would like to point out that at the level and detail of the photo's that I take, macro 1:1, any flaw, problems, big small or minute will show up in gory detail.  From casual observation you may be very hard pressed to see some of these problems with the naked eye.  Also with this level and amount of detail you can clearly see everything and everything does indeed have imperfections.
> 
> One person did point out to me today that the original insert, bands and the like may have been artwork done by hand, i.e. clay or similar.  Then like coin making that object reduced in size and mass produced.  This could clearly explain many aspects that I noticed.
> 
> One think that I would be curious to hear is from other people who have emperor's (oh btw this one is a junior) and the second thing would be great for me to see other emperors and possibly the bulk of things I noticed is limited to this one kit and not widespread in the entire series.
> 
> 'over priced' does come to mind greatly and often on this.  I first ask myself, why the cost, the plating itself could contribute to the bulk, also fee's to the designer(s) possibly, higher production cost for quality and techniques I could also see.  That question is still unanswered.


There's a lot that goes into pricing - and the actual manufacturing cost on 'luxury' items is not closely related to either the wholesale or retail price.  There is only one worldwide source for these particular component sets, and the manufacturer takes advantage of that, using supply and demand to determine his price.  If it isn't high enough he will stop making them.


----------



## edstreet

Smitty37 said:


> There's a lot that goes into pricing - and the actual manufacturing cost on 'luxury' items is not closely related to either the wholesale or retail price.  There is only one worldwide source for these particular component sets, and the manufacturer takes advantage of that, using supply and demand to determine his price.  If it isn't high enough he will stop making them.




Cost of materials would be higher than the kit is sold for, thus no real 'gold' in there.  It is more likely gold colored paint than anything else.  Or even something similar but cheap that looks like gold.  If it was real 22k gold plate then the plate cost would be equal to or above the cost of the pen kit itself.


----------



## Smitty37

edstreet said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> 
> There's a lot that goes into pricing - and the actual manufacturing cost on 'luxury' items is not closely related to either the wholesale or retail price.  There is only one worldwide source for these particular component sets, and the manufacturer takes advantage of that, using supply and demand to determine his price.  If it isn't high enough he will stop making them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cost of materials would be higher than the kit is sold for, thus no real 'gold' in there.  It is more likely gold colored paint than anything else.  Or even something similar but cheap that looks like gold.  If it was real 22k gold plate then the plate cost would be equal to or above the cost of the pen kit itself.
Click to expand...

That is just wrong.  I won't bother going into all the reasons why.


----------



## crabcreekind

edstreet said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> 
> There's a lot that goes into pricing - and the actual manufacturing cost on 'luxury' items is not closely related to either the wholesale or retail price.  There is only one worldwide source for these particular component sets, and the manufacturer takes advantage of that, using supply and demand to determine his price.  If it isn't high enough he will stop making them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cost of materials would be higher than the kit is sold for, thus no real 'gold' in there.  It is more likely gold colored paint than anything else.  Or even something similar but cheap that looks like gold.  If it was real 22k gold plate then the plate cost would be equal to or above the cost of the pen kit itself.
Click to expand...


Not to say youre wrong. But how do you know that it is not real plated gold? And how do you know that the plating of 5 little tiny pieces of metal with 22kt gold is more expensive than $75 or whatever the kit costs? Are you saying that all kits are just painted? You know you can buy plating kits and do it yourself.


----------



## Haynie

This is an interesting thread.  I think we all know and understand that if you look close enough at anything you will see flaws.  IMO if you are going to look that close then you deserve to see what you were looking for.  In the fine art photography world this is called print sniffing.  I guess it could be called pen sniffing here.

Ed even said none of this would be visible to the naked eye.  Maybe, but I think anything out of round would be noticed.  

As a side note, in the images provided that showed the component installed on a blank, I found my eyes drawn to flaws in the fit of the blank with the component, not the component itself.

What I take away from this thread is this:
If the flaw is visible to the discerning eye of the maker the hardware should not be used.  If you have to get a 20x magnifier to see the flaws then they don't really matter anyway.


----------



## Smitty37

Haynie said:


> This is an interesting thread.  I think we all know and understand that if you look close enough at anything you will see flaws.  IMO if you are going to look that close then you deserve to see what you were looking for.  In the fine art photography world this is called print sniffing.  I guess it could be called pen sniffing here.
> 
> Ed even said none of this would be visible to the naked eye.  Maybe, but I think anything out of round would be noticed.
> 
> As a side note, in the images provided that showed the component installed on a blank, I found my eyes drawn to flaws in the fit of the blank with the component, not the component itself.
> 
> What I take away from this thread is this:
> If the flaw is visible to the discerning eye of the maker the hardware should not be used.  If you have to get a 20x magnifier to see the flaws then they don't really matter anyway.


I'm inclined to agree with you.


----------



## Dan Hintz

edstreet said:


> first, what is 'perfect'?  there is nothing that is perfect, everything has flaws.  To what degree do you draw the line with acceptability.  If you look closely at the link he provided you will see the lower band is also at a cant angle.  If you look at the center band on the left you will see it looks ok, look on the RIGHT side you will notice a non parallel end.  The other think is the very very first photo I posted is at most 0.25" from left edge to right edge of the photo.


I think becoming pedantic about the language used here defeats the purpose of the thread.  Looking at the original finial pic and the second one posted, there is a vast difference in the quality of the engraving... to me (in this context, at least), the second one would be considered "perfect", comparatively speaking.  Putting those two pens side by side, the finial engraving would be quite noticeable, and I would reject the first as poor QA.  The centerband unevenness along the edge would be less noticeable, in either case.

Now, is it luck of the draw that two identical kits are vastly different in apparent quality?  To a degree... though it's more a matter of poor QA at the factory.  To make a kit with all "perfect" pieces, may take 10 kits and picking/choosing bits between them.  If it means I feel comfortable selling 9 of those kits at $250 and one at $1k, that's better to me than all 10 at $250 each.

To me, a truly perfect kit would have no noticeable infractions, even under magnification... and I would expect to pay several $k for such a hand-crafted and QA'd pen.


----------



## LagniappeRob

edstreet said:


> Cost of materials would be higher than the kit is sold for, thus no real 'gold' in there.  It is more likely gold colored paint than anything else.  Or even something similar but cheap that looks like gold.  If it was real 22k gold plate then the plate cost would be equal to or above the cost of the pen kit itself.



Not even close...   50 microinches is "thick" plating.  At today's spot price gold is $1255/ounce. A 1 x 1 square inch of 50 uInch = 0.0158 Grams of gold. Even at 24kt that's $0.64.   So even a full sized Emperor might have 2? sq inches of plating, about about a buck and quarter.

Edit - I went and looked because gold plating for ornamental reasons may be different than electronic (my background). The FTC has definitions for various terms.
Gold Flash = 7 uInch
Gold Electroplate = 7 uInch
Gold Plate = 20 uInch
Heavy Gold Plate = 100uInch

So best case is they are using "heavy gold plate" standards and that puts it as the price of a hamburger at McDonalds without fries or drink $2.50.   Still FAR less than what the set costs as a whole.


----------



## crabcreekind

LagniappeRob said:


> edstreet said:
> 
> 
> 
> Cost of materials would be higher than the kit is sold for, thus no real 'gold' in there.  It is more likely gold colored paint than anything else.  Or even something similar but cheap that looks like gold.  If it was real 22k gold plate then the plate cost would be equal to or above the cost of the pen kit itself.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not even close...   50 microinches is "thick" plating.  At today's spot price gold is $1255/ounce. A 1 x 1 square inch of 50 uInch = 0.0158 Grams of gold. Even at 24kt that's $0.64.   So even a full sized Emperor might have 2? sq inches of plating, about about a buck and quarter.
> 
> Edit - I went and looked because gold plating for ornamental reasons may be different than electronic (my background). The FTC has definitions for various terms.
> Gold Flash = 7 uInch
> Gold Electroplate = 7 uInch
> Gold Plate = 20 uInch
> Heavy Gold Plate = 100uInch
> 
> So best case is they are using "heavy gold plate" standards and that puts it as the price of a hamburger at McDonalds without fries or drink $2.50.   Still FAR less than what the set costs as a whole.
Click to expand...


I was hoping someone would do the calculation. :biggrin:


----------



## Smitty37

Dan Hintz said:


> edstreet said:
> 
> 
> 
> first, what is 'perfect'?  there is nothing that is perfect, everything has flaws.  To what degree do you draw the line with acceptability.  If you look closely at the link he provided you will see the lower band is also at a cant angle.  If you look at the center band on the left you will see it looks ok, look on the RIGHT side you will notice a non parallel end.  The other think is the very very first photo I posted is at most 0.25" from left edge to right edge of the photo.
> 
> 
> 
> I think becoming *pedantic* about the language used here defeats the purpose of the thread.  Looking at the original finial pic and the second one posted, there is a vast difference in the quality of the engraving... to me (in this context, at least), the second one would be considered "perfect", comparatively speaking.  Putting those two pens side by side, the finial engraving would be quite noticeable, and I would reject the first as poor QA.  The centerband unevenness along the edge would be less noticeable, in either case.
> 
> Now, is it luck of the draw that two identical kits are vastly different in apparent quality?  To a degree... though it's more a matter of poor QA at the factory.  To make a kit with all "perfect" pieces, may take 10 kits and picking/choosing bits between them.  If it means I feel comfortable selling 9 of those kits at $250 and one at $1k, that's better to me than all 10 at $250 each.
> 
> To me, a truly perfect kit would have no noticeable infractions, even under magnification... and I would expect to pay several $k for such a hand-crafted and QA'd pen.
Click to expand...

Dan I love that word....haven't seen it used in years.  You made my day. (Lest you let your head swell - I am old and easily amused)

http://static.ddmcdn.com/gif/atom-ibm.jpg shows what can be done with high magnification photography....I think that picture is of about 35 atoms or so.  That being the case you almost need to qualify as to how much magnification when you say "under magnification"


----------



## ren-lathe

edstreet said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> 
> There's a lot that goes into pricing - and the actual manufacturing cost on 'luxury' items is not closely related to either the wholesale or retail price.  There is only one worldwide source for these particular component sets, and the manufacturer takes advantage of that, using supply and demand to determine his price.  If it isn't high enough he will stop making them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cost of materials would be higher than the kit is sold for, thus no real 'gold' in there.  It is more likely gold colored paint than anything else.  Or even something similar but cheap that looks like gold.  If it was real 22k gold plate then the plate cost would be equal to or above the cost of the pen kit itself.
Click to expand...


Sorry Ed,
1 I worked in the plating industry for a few years, it is less costly than you think there is only a few microns thickness being deposited.
2 It would be false advertising if it was stated to be 22kt gold plated and a base metal was used. this is easily checked chemically. None of the importers would be willing to take the consequences. Since these cross state lines you are looking at a Federal fraud rap, class action law suit etc.


----------



## LagniappeRob

ren-lathe said:


> ...
> 1 I worked in the plating industry for a few years, it is less costly than you think there is only a few microns thickness being deposited.
> ...



Exactly!  100 uInch ~= 2 1/2 microns.  The FTC required 20 uInch to be called "gold plated" is roughly 1/2 of 1 micron (about 50 cents worth @ 24kt - even less at 22 ... )


----------



## ed4copies

ren-lathe said:


> edstreet said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> 
> There's a lot that goes into pricing - and the actual manufacturing cost on 'luxury' items is not closely related to either the wholesale or retail price.  There is only one worldwide source for these particular component sets, and the manufacturer takes advantage of that, using supply and demand to determine his price.  If it isn't high enough he will stop making them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cost of materials would be higher than the kit is sold for, thus no real 'gold' in there.  It is more likely gold colored paint than anything else.  Or even something similar but cheap that looks like gold.  If it was real 22k gold plate then the plate cost would be equal to or above the cost of the pen kit itself.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sorry Ed,
> 1 I worked in the plating industry for a few years, it is less costly than you think there is only a few microns thickness being deposited.
> 2 It would be false advertising if it was stated to be 22kt gold plated and a base metal was used. this is easily checked chemically. None of the importers would be willing to take the consequences. Since these cross state lines you are looking at a Federal fraud rap, class action law suit etc.
Click to expand...


This makes the assumption that the "importer" knows what he is purchasing.  Suppose the manufacturer STATES it is 22kt gold.  Name an importer who has actually CHECKED the product he is receiving.

I suspect those who purchased lead-laden toys from China did not purchase them with the label "Lots o'lead"!!:biggrin::biggrin:

Point is you don't KNOW what is being sold to you, at the importer level or at the retail level.  We accept what we are told by the manufacturer as being true.  "Ain't necessarily so" (from Porgy and Bess).


----------



## walshjp17

Rats!  There goes my innate belief in the honesty of all humanity:bulgy-eyes::befuddled::crying:


----------



## ed4copies

sorry, John.


----------



## edstreet

crabcreekind said:


> edstreet said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> 
> There's a lot that goes into pricing - and the actual manufacturing cost on 'luxury' items is not closely related to either the wholesale or retail price.  There is only one worldwide source for these particular component sets, and the manufacturer takes advantage of that, using supply and demand to determine his price.  If it isn't high enough he will stop making them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cost of materials would be higher than the kit is sold for, thus no real 'gold' in there.  It is more likely gold colored paint than anything else.  Or even something similar but cheap that looks like gold.  If it was real 22k gold plate then the plate cost would be equal to or above the cost of the pen kit itself.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Not to say youre wrong. But how do you know that it is not real plated gold? And how do you know that the plating of 5 little tiny pieces of metal with 22kt gold is more expensive than $75 or whatever the kit costs? Are you saying that all kits are just painted? You know you can buy plating kits and do it yourself.
Click to expand...




LagniappeRob said:


> edstreet said:
> 
> 
> 
> Cost of materials would be higher than the kit is sold for, thus no real 'gold' in there.  It is more likely gold colored paint than anything else.  Or even something similar but cheap that looks like gold.  If it was real 22k gold plate then the plate cost would be equal to or above the cost of the pen kit itself.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not even close...   50 microinches is "thick" plating.  At today's spot price gold is $1255/ounce. A 1 x 1 square inch of 50 uInch = 0.0158 Grams of gold. Even at 24kt that's $0.64.   So even a full sized Emperor might have 2? sq inches of plating, about about a buck and quarter.
> 
> Edit - I went and looked because gold plating for ornamental reasons may be different than electronic (my background). The FTC has definitions for various terms.
> Gold Flash = 7 uInch
> Gold Electroplate = 7 uInch
> Gold Plate = 20 uInch
> Heavy Gold Plate = 100uInch
> 
> So best case is they are using "heavy gold plate" standards and that puts it as the price of a hamburger at McDonalds without fries or drink $2.50.   Still FAR less than what the set costs as a whole.
Click to expand...




ren-lathe said:


> edstreet said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> 
> There's a lot that goes into pricing - and the actual manufacturing cost on 'luxury' items is not closely related to either the wholesale or retail price.  There is only one worldwide source for these particular component sets, and the manufacturer takes advantage of that, using supply and demand to determine his price.  If it isn't high enough he will stop making them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cost of materials would be higher than the kit is sold for, thus no real 'gold' in there.  It is more likely gold colored paint than anything else.  Or even something similar but cheap that looks like gold.  If it was real 22k gold plate then the plate cost would be equal to or above the cost of the pen kit itself.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sorry Ed,
> 1 I worked in the plating industry for a few years, it is less costly than you think there is only a few microns thickness being deposited.
> 2 It would be false advertising if it was stated to be 22kt gold plated and a base metal was used. this is easily checked chemically. None of the importers would be willing to take the consequences. Since these cross state lines you are looking at a Federal fraud rap, class action law suit etc.
Click to expand...


hmmm OK I do love being wrong, like in this case and I do stand corrected.  I just do have a few concerning factors here to ask and hopefully one of you knows the answer. 

Mil spec standard on plating ranks in terms of grade, purity, hardness and class.  I am assuming here they are not using mil-dtl-45204d standards so the question is what standard are they using and what grade, purity, hardness and class is the product.  In case anyone ask 'why does this matter' the answer is it relates to wear and tear over time. As previous stated class 00 being 0.00002" thick while class 6 being 0.00150" thick is a very big difference in thickness.

So far I have done minimal looking and quoting on gold plating setups and from what I have seen so far the price is based on spot price of gold on the international precious metal markets.  Which means prices of these kits *SHOULD* change drastically with the cost of materials, i.e. gold.  Have they?  As I recall the pricing on the emperors have been fairly consistent for some time now even with the skyrocket explosion cost of gold.


The final thought for the day, being able to see WITH THE NAKED EYE several problem areas that are apparent on MULTIPLE emperor's (now that we are aware of what they are, i.e. angle of cant on the center band, out of round inserts) implies low to poor quality control.  If that apparent on these areas it  would be safe to assume the rest of the areas are as equally prone to the similar levels of quality control.


----------



## LagniappeRob

What do you call as changing "drastically"? 

Gold hit $1908/ounce. The lowest I see is $37/ounce in 1970.

Gold cost for 2 square inches of plating at the required 20 uinches @ the $1908/ounce = $0.78.   Gold at the lowest I found ($37), $0.02.  Variance of 76 cents. And that's for 24kt.  On a $70 Jr Emperor, that a less than 2% change from 1970 to record high price. I'm thinking they are pricing with some fluctuation in mind. Sure if gold hit $10k/ounce I bet you'd see a price increase across the board (btw, before you ask, it would then be ~$4 material cost). I just don't see the price of gold being that much of a price factor in this.


----------



## edstreet

LagniappeRob said:


> What do you call as changing "drastically"?
> 
> Gold hit $1908/ounce. The lowest I see is $37/ounce in 1970.
> 
> Gold cost for 2 square inches of plating at the required 20 uinches @ the $1908/ounce = $0.78.



Please quote your source and the verification from dayacom that they adhere to those standards.


----------



## LagniappeRob

Those are not Dayacom's stated standards. The FTC requires items marked as "gold plated" to be 20 uInches thick, thus the "required 20 uinches". 



> (2) An industry product or part thereof, on which there has been affixed on all significant surfaces, by any process, a coating, electroplating, or deposition by any means, of gold or gold alloy of not less than 10 karat fineness that is of substantial thickness,3 and the minimum thickness throughout of which is equivalent to one-half micron (or approximately 20 millionths of an inch) of fine gold,4 may be marked or described as "Gold Plate" or "Gold Plated," or abbreviated, as, for example, G.P. The exact thickness of the plate may be marked on the item, if it is immediately followed by a designation of the karat fineness of the plating which is of equal conspicuousness as the term used (as, for example, "2 microns 12 K. gold plate" or "2µ 12 K. G.P." for an item plated with 2 microns of 12 karat gold.)


----------



## SteveG

Did you have to bring in Porgy and Bess? It was going pretty good up until that!!


----------



## edstreet

LagniappeRob said:


> Those are not Dayacom's stated standards. The FTC requires items marked as "gold plated" to be 20 uInches thick, thus the "required 20 uinches".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (2) An industry product or part thereof, on which there has been affixed on all significant surfaces, by any process, a coating, electroplating, or deposition by any means, of gold or gold alloy of not less than 10 karat fineness that is of substantial thickness,3 and the minimum thickness throughout of which is equivalent to one-half micron (or approximately 20 millionths of an inch) of fine gold,4 may be marked or described as "Gold Plate" or "Gold Plated," or abbreviated, as, for example, G.P. The exact thickness of the plate may be marked on the item, if it is immediately followed by a designation of the karat fineness of the plating which is of equal conspicuousness as the term used (as, for example, "2 microns 12 K. gold plate" or "2µ 12 K. G.P." for an item plated with 2 microns of 12 karat gold.)
Click to expand...



What I was driving at is yes there are many standards that we here in north america adhere to.  Dayacom is not in north america and not subjected to those same standards.

It appears that no one really knows what standards they meet or if there are any standards.  Which is my original post,  quality.


----------



## edstreet

LagniappeRob said:


> Those are not Dayacom's stated standards. The FTC requires items marked as "gold plated" to be 20 uInches thick, thus the "required 20 uinches".




Sorry but I just saw something else to.  You mentioned 'requires items marked as'  I see no markings on the emperor of any form as to what the plating is.  So by these FTC requirements that would be exempt from the purity standards no?


----------



## OKLAHOMAN

I get my clips plated here in the US and the last time I did the gold surcharge over silver and Rhodium was $19.25 per 500 pieces that less than 4 cents each. I just don't see the cost of the plating being a large factor in the cost of the component set. They are the only makers of it and as the only place to get a component set as big and blingly your paying their price. Betcha their % of profit per piece is much higher than their less expensive component sets.


----------



## LagniappeRob

I was addressing 2 specific statements made:



> Also I now question the plating and wondering something, given the mass of the surface area and the price of the pen, if that was real 22k gold plating that was used the pen cost would be greater. So given that what is the content in these platting. I seriously doubt that it does indeed contain 22k gold, or even rhodium for that matter.



This simply isn't the case. IF (speculation) there's 2 sq in of plate, then it would require almost 100x the US standard for gold plating to match the price of the kit.



> As I recall the pricing on the emperors have been fairly consistent for some time now even with the skyrocket explosion cost of gold.



MY point was the cost of the gold itself is not that significant... 76 cents increase in the cost of the gold from 1970 to the record high per pen. That's nothing. There's just not that much gold in there.

I'm not stating anything about the quality of the kits. I've never done one... but I can show that the above statements just don't work out with the actual dollar figures even basing it on standards they'd never meet - like they would need 0.002 inch plating to = the q50 cost of the lowest kit.


----------



## ren-lathe

edstreet said:


> LagniappeRob said:
> 
> 
> 
> Those are not Dayacom's stated standards. The FTC requires items marked as "gold plated" to be 20 uInches thick, thus the "required 20 uinches".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (2) An industry product or part thereof, on which there has been affixed on all significant surfaces, by any process, a coating, electroplating, or deposition by any means, of gold or gold alloy of not less than 10 karat fineness that is of substantial thickness,3 and the minimum thickness throughout of which is equivalent to one-half micron (or approximately 20 millionths of an inch) of fine gold,4 may be marked or described as "Gold Plate" or "Gold Plated," or abbreviated, as, for example, G.P. The exact thickness of the plate may be marked on the item, if it is immediately followed by a designation of the karat fineness of the plating which is of equal conspicuousness as the term used (as, for example, "2 microns 12 K. gold plate" or "2µ 12 K. G.P." for an item plated with 2 microns of 12 karat gold.)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> What I was driving at is yes there are many standards that we here in north america adhere to.  Dayacom is not in north america and not subjected to those same standards.
> 
> It appears that no one really knows what standards they meet or if there are any standards.  Which is my original post,  quality.
Click to expand...


Dayacom may not be in North America. BUT the importing companies are so THEY must conform to existing standards. As stated previously Berea, PSI, Craft USA, etc  who is advertising theses as gold plated is not going to chance lawsuits & Federal penalties when the cost of conforming is really one of the least expensive parts of the process. To save a few pennies on the cost of a kit to loose your business & reputation is not worth it.


----------



## Ed McDonnell

These are pictures of a junior version.  This pen was made about 5 years ago.  It was never used and has been stored in a pen case since it was completed.  To me the details on the bands look fine, but  they feel sharp and scratchy.  I don't find it a comfortable pen to hold or a pleasant pen to feel.  I never even bothered inking it.

The bands look fine to me to my naked eye and under magnification.  The ends are a different story.  This is the small end.



 

The polished plated areas are reflecting a black background in the picturee and look dark.  You can see the one area where the casting was low and did not get polished.  This blemish is visible to the naked eye.  

This is the large (cap) end.



 


To the naked eye, the large end doesn't seem as bright as the small end.  It looks a little dirty.  Under magnification you can see that the brass has started to oxidize.  Keep in mind that this pen is 5 years old, but has never been used and has been stored in a closed case.  I have to believe that had I used this pen a lot, the corrosion would be substantially worse.  Probably to the point of being visible to the naked eye as green brass corrosion.

I don't like this kit at any price, but that's just me.

Ed


----------



## edstreet

parklandturner said:


> These are pictures of a junior version.  This pen was made about 5 years ago.  It was never used and has been stored in a pen case since it was completed.  To me the details on the bands look fine, but  they feel sharp and scratchy.  I don't find it a comfortable pen to hold or a pleasant pen to feel.  I never even bothered inking it.
> 
> The bands look fine to me to my naked eye and under magnification.  The ends are a different story.  This is the small end.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The polished plated areas are reflecting a black background in the picturee and look dark.  You can see the one area where the casting was low and did not get polished.  This blemish is visible to the naked eye.
> 
> This is the large (cap) end.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To the naked eye, the large end doesn't seem as bright as the small end.  It looks a little dirty.  Under magnification you can see that the brass has started to oxidize.  Keep in mind that this pen is 5 years old, but has never been used and has been stored in a closed case.  I have to believe that had I used this pen a lot, the corrosion would be substantially worse.  Probably to the point of being visible to the naked eye as green brass corrosion.
> 
> I don't like this kit at any price, but that's just me.
> 
> Ed



I am looking at the macro I took on my left monitor and the photo you took on the right monitor.  A few things does stand out: Mine definitely has LDS while your has EDS (early and late die stages in lifespan)

The shiny/dull aspect seems to me to indicate non-gold but I would love for some jewelry expert to chime in here and give us the lowdown on this.   I could even post a shot or 2 of some gold coins that I have that is tarnishing if need be.

It also appears that the matting edge of the insert to the cap is a different angle.  Perhaps a design change or maybe die wear.

In the cap it seems both have the same problem in the valley's and in the exact same spots. This again brings up the manufacturing methods.


----------



## tim self

I've read all the posts and to answer the original question, IMHO yes.  My customers love them and have never complained about the quality of the plating or design flaws.  Have I ever noticed them? Not to the extent of using a Macro 1.1. Are my pens perfect? No but made to the best of my ability.  

IMO, if you are concerned about customers louping them, don't make them.  I've had pen snobs inspect my nibs with the loupe as many of you have.  I will continue to make them and sell them for a high dollar amount because I believe the components and my work is worth it.

Smitty, call it what you like but when I have customers at my booth calling what I create ART, then that's what I consider it.  It all boils down to what the person buying our product thinks, not fellow turners or artists.


----------



## OKLAHOMAN

tim self said:


> I've read all the posts and to answer the original question, IMHO yes.  My customers love them and have never complained about the quality of the plating or design flaws.  Have I ever noticed them? Not to the extent of using a Macro 1.1. Are my pens perfect? No but made to the best of my ability.
> 
> IMO, if you are concerned about customers louping them, don't make them.  I've had pen snobs inspect my nibs with the loupe as many of you have.  I will continue to make them and sell them for a high dollar amount because I believe the components and my work is worth it.
> 
> Smitty, call it what you like but when I have customers at my booth calling what I create ART, then that's what I consider it.  It all boils down to what the person buying our product thinks, not fellow turners or artists.



Well said "grasshopper":biggrin:


----------



## Dan Hintz

Smitty37 said:


> That being the case you almost need to qualify as to how much magnification when you say "under magnification"


Foe me, I think a typical eye loupe would be enough... what do they typically run, 10x?  If a customer wants to put one of my pens under an electron microscope, he's free to... but I'll charge him extra for the atomic-level diamond buffing paste treatment.


----------



## edstreet

Dan Hintz said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> 
> That being the case you almost need to qualify as to how much magnification when you say "under magnification"
> 
> 
> 
> Foe me, I think a typical eye loupe would be enough... what do they typically run, 10x?  If a customer wants to put one of my pens under an electron microscope, he's free to... but I'll charge him extra for the atomic-level diamond buffing paste treatment.
Click to expand...


This I would have to see.  There is no way feasible you could clean up to perfection at that level.  Not saying it can not be done but you do not have the equipment to do that.


----------



## Smitty37

ed4copies said:


> ren-lathe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> edstreet said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> 
> There's a lot that goes into pricing - and the actual manufacturing cost on 'luxury' items is not closely related to either the wholesale or retail price.  There is only one worldwide source for these particular component sets, and the manufacturer takes advantage of that, using supply and demand to determine his price.  If it isn't high enough he will stop making them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cost of materials would be higher than the kit is sold for, thus no real 'gold' in there.  It is more likely gold colored paint than anything else.  Or even something similar but cheap that looks like gold.  If it was real 22k gold plate then the plate cost would be equal to or above the cost of the pen kit itself.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sorry Ed,
> 1 I worked in the plating industry for a few years, it is less costly than you think there is only a few microns thickness being deposited.
> 2 It would be false advertising if it was stated to be 22kt gold plated and a base metal was used. this is easily checked chemically. None of the importers would be willing to take the consequences. Since these cross state lines you are looking at a Federal fraud rap, class action law suit etc.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This makes the assumption that the "importer" knows what he is purchasing.  Suppose the manufacturer STATES it is 22kt gold.  Name an importer who has actually CHECKED the product he is receiving.
> 
> I suspect those who purchased lead-laden toys from China did not purchase them with the label "Lots o'lead"!!:biggrin::biggrin:
> 
> Point is you don't KNOW what is being sold to you, at the importer level or at the retail level.  We accept what we are told by the manufacturer as being true.  "Ain't necessarily so" (from Porgy and Bess).
Click to expand...

You ARE wrong, if it says 22K gold it  is highly unlikely that it is not 22K gold. First, because it is the importer who is responsible but if an exporter was found to be substituting something for gold, they would also feel repercussions from US Customs.
Second, because it is pretty easy to test for - you need to destroy a couple of kits but random checking of the plating would be (and probably is) easily done by the larger importers.

Third Emperor's themselves are produced in Taiwan which does NOT have a reputation for producing  'cheap Chinese imports', "Made in Taiwan" is a highly respected mark  

The 2007 lead paint issue was an unrelated problem.


----------



## Dan Hintz

edstreet said:


> This I would have to see.  There is no way feasible you could clean up to perfection at that level.  Not saying it can not be done but you do not have the equipment to do that.


I think you are making invalid assumptions, both about my ability as well as my workshop.

If I were to put a stainless ring into a fiber laser rotary, I could create a centerband that would blow those away.  Send away a batch to be plated.  What we have pictures of above are cast, but that's not the only way to create components.  Using my method, I could create a kit that would be orders of magnitude better quality than the cast stuff above, and I would likely charge a couple hundred $s just for the kit.  Anyone using such a kit should expect several $k for a pen created from it as they could hand it to a purist with a loupe and say "See?  It has crisp edges, fine detail, etc.".

The idea isn't to clean up an existing kit... you can only pick and choose between multiple kits to put together the lesser of multiple evils.  The idea (in my mind) is to create something from scratch that makes those kits look like just what they are... cast.  Who is the guy who makes stainless kits here in the U.S.  Marksman, I believe?  Same idea, but taking it farther than just metal lathe work.  I'm willing to bet the edges on the Marksman kit are "perfect" when compared to the cast kits from PSI, Woodcraft, etc.


----------



## Smitty37

For those interested - prices of imported kits from China are increasing - my supplier recently announced a 10% increase, part of which is said to be related to the increases in costs of plating materials (not just gold plating).  Gold plating has traditionally been the 2nd lowest in cost with Chrome being the lowest and Black Chrome being pretty close to the same.  

Rhodium, has become the highest and Black Ti and Gold TN (which are both ceramics not metal) are the highest...typically they are also the thinnest platings - for reasons other than the cost of plating or plating materials.


I think it is safe to say the difference in price between most platings is not based on the cost of plating materials, it might well be based on the process though which could be why gold has been a 'cheaper' plating for years.


----------



## ed4copies

Quoting Smitty:

_You ARE wrong, if it says 22K gold it  is highly unlikely that it is not 22K gold.
_
I AM wrong only if every 22kt kit gets tested and they all are really 22kt--then I am wrong about THAT assertion.  

My actual assertion is that we do NOT KNOW what we are getting.. That assertion would only be WRONG, if EVERY kit was exactly what it is labeled.  You do recall your supplier "clarified" they were selling you white gold, when that was NOT what they originally called it.
THAT incident alone would make my assertion correct--you were NOT getting what you were TOLD you were getting.

Ed


----------



## Ulises Victoria

So, I have seen several bottom of the line kits labeled as 24kt gold. What are they?


----------



## Smitty37

ed4copies said:


> Quoting Smitty:
> 
> _You ARE wrong, if it says 22K gold it  is highly unlikely that it is not 22K gold.
> _
> *I AM wrong only if every 22kt kit gets tested and they all are really 22kt--then I am wrong about THAT assertion.*
> 
> My actual assertion is that we do NOT KNOW what we are getting.. That assertion would only be WRONG, if EVERY kit was exactly what it is labeled.  You do recall your supplier "clarified" they were selling you white gold, when that was NOT what they originally called it.
> THAT incident alone would make my assertion correct--you were NOT getting what you were TOLD you were getting.
> 
> Ed


Wrong is wrong Ed and you are wrong.


The rest of your statement you are just trying to say that unless we test every single kit that comes from every single manufacturer for proper gold content you can never be wrong....believe that if it makes you feel good.


The issue with the White Gold being called Platinum is an entirely different issue, and if I had asked the manufacturer what his alloy was before I ordered the kits, he would have been happy to tell me.  The Platinum kits were named based on color not alloy and were actually named by a USA company because that is what they were selling them as.  It was not deceit on the part of the Chinese.  Incidently it was not Dayacom or any other Taiwanese based company who provided the kits.


----------



## Smitty37

What you are looking at might or might not be a quality control issue.  The "flaws" you are talking about might or might not be 'out of specification'.  To know you'd have to see the specification.  Is the specification adequate for the purpose - again you don't know without seeing the specification....I am assuming that no one here has actually seen the specification.  Does that mean you have to be satisfied with the product - no it doesn't.  But, it might mean that you are assigning a higher standard than the manufacturer does - in that case you will never be happy with the product.

I'm sure that Dayacom like most mass producers uses statistical quality control measures which are used successfully all over the world to assure the buyer is getting what they think they are getting.  Do they assure that every single item meets spec - no they don't, but they can assure that the products will come very close to 100% compliance.  


And they can be adjusted, in electronic components we expected 99.99% compliance on many of the parts - no more than 1 bad one out of 10,000 and some critical components we looked for 99.999% compliance. Our suppliers met those requirements, but not for free.


----------



## alparent

My take on these "High End" pens his that the are not "High End" at all. They are just more intricate. More bling! So they give illusion of better quality. They are surely more costly to produce do to the castings, but this same level of intricacy combined with the average quality control is more prone to defects. (I'm pretty shure there is no higher quality control standards for these kits then the other ones. Or we would not see all this inconsistency.)

For this reason I present these pens as my more intricate pens, not my "High End" pens. If I want to present something as "High End" I go with something with a very high quality control standard. (Mostly hand made stuff.)

Remember, bling dose not equal quality!

You can put all the chrome you want on a FORD, it won't make it a Mercedes. (And most Mercedes don't even have much chrome!)

Same goes for pens for that matter. Most "High End" pens don't even have a lot  of bling.

Are these pens worth it? As fare as I'm concerned, I sell them for what they are, pens with more bling, and a lot  of people like them. And remember that people are going to look at them before buying....if they don't like the x10 loop defects.....they don't buy it! I'm not forcing them. But I don't try to push them as "High End" pens. That way I can have a clean conscience. Being honest about my products is #1 for me.

OK I'm done ..... probably more then you wanted to read.......sure more then I wanted to write!


----------



## Smitty37

alparent said:


> My take on these "High End" pens his that the are not "High End" at all. They are just more intricate. More bling! So they give illusion of better quality. They are surely more costly to produce do to the castings, but this same level of intricacy combined with the average quality control is more prone to defects. (I'm pretty shure there is no higher quality control standards for these kits then the other ones. Or we would not see all this inconsistency.)
> 
> For this reason I present these pens as my more intricate pens, not my "High End" pens. If I want to present something as "High End" I go with something with a very high quality control standard. (Mostly hand made stuff.)
> 
> Remember, bling dose not equal quality!
> 
> You can put all the chrome you want on a FORD, it won't make it a Mercedes. (And most Mercedes don't even have much chrome!)
> 
> Same goes for pens for that matter. Most "High End" pens don't even have a lot  of bling.
> 
> *Are these pens worth it?* As fare as I'm concerned, I sell them for what they are, pens with more bling, and a lot  of people like them. And remember that people are going to look at them before buying....if they don't like the x10 loop defects.....they don't buy it! I'm not forcing them. But I don't try to push them as "High End" pens. That way I can have a clean conscience. Being honest about my products is #1 for me.
> 
> OK I'm done ..... probably more then you wanted to read.......sure more then I wanted to write!


 That is a question that we always answer for ourselves on everything we buy.  If the answer is 'no' we generally only buy if there is a compelling reason to do so.  If we buy in a package and change our mind about the worth after the package is open, we'll take it back because it didn't meet our expectations.  

From a manufacturing perspective quality control means just one thing - conformance to specification.  You and I might differ with the manufacturer on what his specification ought to be but generally (unless he publishes them which most pen kit makers do not) speaking can't tell if they are meeting spec.


----------



## edstreet

Smitty37 said:


> That is a question that we always answer for ourselves on everything we buy.  If the answer is 'no' we generally only buy if there is a compelling reason to do so.  If we buy in a package and change our mind about the worth after the package is open, we'll take it back because it didn't meet our expectations.
> 
> From a manufacturing perspective quality control means just one thing - conformance to specification.  You and I might differ with the manufacturer on what his specification ought to be but generally (unless he publishes them which most pen kit makers do not) speaking can't tell if they are meeting spec.



So you are conceding to the fact that maybe they are using what they call 22kt gold but used 20% purity rather than the 90% we here in North America are use to. Or the fact that since they do NOT mark the product in any way their standards may be gold like plating or gold paint plating.

Thank you for understanding the specification limits of implied vs actual.

Therefore your own validation of it must be true because I read it on the Internet seriously needs re-evaluated.

Long story short don't be sheeple.


----------



## edstreet

alparent said:


> My take on these "High End" pens his that the are not "High End" at all. They are just more intricate. More bling! So they give illusion of better quality. They are surely more costly to produce do to the castings, but this same level of intricacy combined with the average quality control is more prone to defects. (I'm pretty shure there is no higher quality control standards for these kits then the other ones. Or we would not see all this inconsistency.)
> 
> For this reason I present these pens as my more intricate pens, not my "High End" pens. If I want to present something as "High End" I go with something with a very high quality control standard. (Mostly hand made stuff.)
> 
> Remember, bling dose not equal quality!
> 
> You can put all the chrome you want on a FORD, it won't make it a Mercedes. (And most Mercedes don't even have much chrome!)
> 
> Same goes for pens for that matter. Most "High End" pens don't even have a lot  of bling.
> 
> Are these pens worth it? As fare as I'm concerned, I sell them for what they are, pens with more bling, and a lot  of people like them. And remember that people are going to look at them before buying....if they don't like the x10 loop defects.....they don't buy it! I'm not forcing them. But I don't try to push them as "High End" pens. That way I can have a clean conscience. Being honest about my products is #1 for me.
> 
> OK I'm done ..... probably more then you wanted to read.......sure more then I wanted to write!



Thanks for your post. I have maintained since post #1 that what you said and for some reason many just don't understand.  They seem to hear 'high end' and think 'high end quality', it could just as we'll mean 'high end bling', 'high end sucker', 'high end profit margin', 'high end user' etc.... 

We have also proven that high quality is lacking as same problems exist across multiple units.


----------



## Smitty37

edstreet said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> 
> That is a question that we always answer for ourselves on everything we buy.  If the answer is 'no' we generally only buy if there is a compelling reason to do so.  If we buy in a package and change our mind about the worth after the package is open, we'll take it back because it didn't meet our expectations.
> 
> From a manufacturing perspective quality control means just one thing - conformance to specification.  You and I might differ with the manufacturer on what his specification ought to be but generally (unless he publishes them which most pen kit makers do not) speaking can't tell if they are meeting spec.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So you are conceding to the fact that maybe they are using what they call 22kt gold but used 20% purity rather than the 90% we here in North America are use to. Or the fact that since they do NOT mark the product in any way their standards may be gold like plating or gold paint plating.
> 
> Thank you for understanding the specification limits of implied vs actual.
> 
> *Therefore your own validation of it must be true because I read it on the Internet seriously needs re-evaluated.*
> 
> Long story short don't be sheeple.
Click to expand...


No I am not conceding that.  Karat is a definition of purity.  US Gold Coins used a % rather than K to specify purity.  22K gold is by world wide (nearly) definition a certain % purity (11/12th or 91.6666667%).  Any decrease in "purity" results in a decrease it the K rating. 22K gold exceeds the 90% purity you speak of.  20% purity would be in the range of 5K.

Statistical quality control methods are more than implied - they are, in fact, for most mass produced items more accurate than 100% visual inspection.  To call them implied is just another way for you to attempt to say "no matter what I say I will never be wrong?"  As I said you can believe that if you want.


*Just what is that about?  I have known what 22K gold was since long before the internet was even a gleam in anyone's eye.  My knowledge of statistical quality control stems from my career not from the internet.*


----------



## OKLAHOMAN

Add your name and date & yes you can frame these:biggrin:​ 

​


----------



## Smitty37

I am put to mind of John Wayne's line regarding dead horses from his movie The Searchers.





OKLAHOMAN said:


> Add your name and date & yes you can frame these:biggrin:​
> View attachment 98258​


----------



## edstreet

Smitty37 said:


> No I am not conceding that.  Karat is a definition of purity.  US Gold Coins used a % rather than K to specify purity.  22K gold is by world wide (nearly) definition a certain % purity (11/12th or 91.6666667%).  Any decrease in "purity" results in a decrease it the K rating. 22K gold exceeds the 90% purity you speak of.  20% purity would be in the range of 5K.
> 
> Statistical quality control methods are more than implied - they are, in fact, for most mass produced items more accurate than 100% visual inspection.  To call them implied is just another way for you to attempt to say "no matter what I say I will never be wrong?"  As I said you can believe that if you want.
> 
> *Just what is that about?  I have known what 22K gold was since long before the internet was even a gleam in anyone's eye.  My knowledge of statistical quality control stems from my career not from the internet.*





So more Ad Hoc speculation not based on imperical data.  The only info you cite is US based.  Last I checked dayacom was not in the US.  Also I have yet to see any lab reports, or any information from the company to certify things, nor any markings, stampings, lettering or any type material what so ever to claim that 22kt gold is used OTHER than a marketing advertisement on their website.  Last I checked most company were very proud to list high purity values and went out of their way to display it, when companies does *NOT* that throws up red flags to me.





> I'm sure that Dayacom like most mass producers uses statistical quality control measures which are used successfully all over the world to assure the buyer is getting what they think they are getting.



This is an assumption and you know what they say about assumptions.  For all we know they are subcontracting out to various villagers who is making this stuff in the village square.  I have not seen anyone mention photo's, video or first hand accounts of factory tours either.



> The Platinum kits were named based on color not alloy and were actually named by a USA company because that is what they were selling them as.



So here to it could "look like 22kt gold" but not real '22kt gold'.  Again with lack of markings, stampings or any lit from the manufacture it could be anything, and be 100% legit.




> You ARE wrong, if it says 22K gold it is highly unlikely that it is not 22K gold. First, because it is the importer who is responsible but if an exporter was found to be substituting something for gold, they would also feel repercussions from US Customs.



I hate to nitpick but can you show me USC that gives US Customs control over component quality control?  I cant seem to locate it, my google-fu must be broken today or something.


----------



## edstreet

Ulises Victoria said:


> So, I have seen several bottom of the line kits labeled as 24kt gold. What are they?



As some of the people posted earlier pricing to get things plated that does very well indeed bring up the lower end kits, i.e. the sub $5-10 kits that claim to be gold plated.  It would seem that the plating is worth more than the underlying meta itself is.  It also makes me wonder if they use something else to plate with to keep cost down to provide lower prices.


----------



## edstreet

Dan Hintz said:


> edstreet said:
> 
> 
> 
> This I would have to see.  There is no way feasible you could clean up to perfection at that level.  Not saying it can not be done but you do not have the equipment to do that.
> 
> 
> 
> I think you are making invalid assumptions, both about my ability as well as my workshop.
> 
> If I were to put a stainless ring into a fiber laser rotary, I could create a centerband that would blow those away.  Send away a batch to be plated.  What we have pictures of above are cast, but that's not the only way to create components.  Using my method, I could create a kit that would be orders of magnitude better quality than the cast stuff above, and I would likely charge a couple hundred $s just for the kit.  Anyone using such a kit should expect several $k for a pen created from it as they could hand it to a purist with a loupe and say "See?  It has crisp edges, fine detail, etc.".
> 
> The idea isn't to clean up an existing kit... you can only pick and choose between multiple kits to put together the lesser of multiple evils.  The idea (in my mind) is to create something from scratch that makes those kits look like just what they are... cast.  Who is the guy who makes stainless kits here in the U.S.  Marksman, I believe?  Same idea, but taking it farther than just metal lathe work.  I'm willing to bet the edges on the Marksman kit are "perfect" when compared to the cast kits from PSI, Woodcraft, etc.
Click to expand...


Perhaps I am and I do apologize if I am in error.  I was speaking in terms of equipment tolerances as with the magnification you can see things like tooling runout, chisel precision, micro alignment issues, pitting, gouging, marks and the like; all which would take a great deal of very very expensive equipment to render precise and flawless viewing in that macro region.


----------



## jttheclockman

I can not believe this topic has gone on for 10 pages with most of it being copy and print. You people have nothing better to do?????  If you don't like the quality of pen kit DON"T BUY IT case closed. If a company is selling them and making money from them they must be doing something right. I laugh when people think the pen world revolves around this little group and I mean little. Tolerances and using magnifiers to make a pen. Man where is the fun????  Don't like the quality make your own. Have some fun. This hobby is suppose to be fun. No anal--izing.

Go ahead blow up my responce and copy and paste it 10000000000 times.


----------



## Smitty37

jttheclockman said:


> I can not believe this topic has gone on for 10 pages with most of it being copy and print. You people have nothing better to do?????  If you don't like the quality of pen kit DON"T BUY IT case closed. If a company is selling them and making money from them they must be doing something right. I laugh when people think the pen world revolves around this little group and I mean little. Tolerances and using magnifiers to make a pen. Man where is the fun????  Don't like the quality make your own. Have some fun. This hobby is suppose to be fun. No anal--izing.
> 
> Go ahead blow up my responce and copy and paste it 10000000000 times.


 I'm retired --- and no right now I don't have anything better to do.  It is raining and I'm taking a break from getting a thousand kits ready to send back for replating.  And because friendly arguing might not be fun to you, I kind of enjoy it.


----------



## jttheclockman

Friendly arguing usually turns sour. I bet no answer was gotten out of any of this. But if you 2 want to play footsies have at it.  Lets see who can copy and paste the most. The winner gets a pisspoor Emperor kit maybe a slimline would be more appropriate. 

Man I wish it were raining here. 4 weeks of heat and humidity is taking its toll.


----------



## Smitty37

edstreet said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> 
> No I am not conceding that.  Karat is a definition of purity.  US Gold Coins used a % rather than K to specify purity.  22K gold is by world wide (nearly) definition a certain % purity (11/12th or 91.6666667%).  Any decrease in "purity" results in a decrease it the K rating. 22K gold exceeds the 90% purity you speak of.  20% purity would be in the range of 5K.
> 
> Statistical quality control methods are more than implied - they are, in fact, for most mass produced items more accurate than 100% visual inspection.  To call them implied is just another way for you to attempt to say "no matter what I say I will never be wrong?"  As I said you can believe that if you want.
> 
> *Just what is that about?  I have known what 22K gold was since long before the internet was even a gleam in anyone's eye.  My knowledge of statistical quality control stems from my career not from the internet.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So more Ad Hoc speculation not based on imperical data.  The only info you cite is US based.  Last I checked dayacom was not in the US.  Also I have yet to see any lab reports, or any information from the company to certify things, nor any markings, stampings, lettering or any type material what so ever to claim that 22kt gold is used OTHER than a marketing advertisement on their website.  *Last I checked* most company were very proud to list high purity values and went out of their way to display it, when companies does *NOT* that throws up red flags to me. *Talk about Ad Hoc statements not based on emperical data....just when did you "check" this and how many companies were in your sample over what period of time did you conduct your experiment?*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sure that Dayacom like most mass producers uses statistical quality control measures which are used successfully all over the world to assure the buyer is getting what they think they are getting.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> This is an assumption and you know what they say about assumptions.  For all we know they are subcontracting out to various villagers who is making this stuff in the village square.  I have not seen anyone mention photo's, video or first hand accounts of factory tours either.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Platinum kits were named based on color not alloy and were actually named by a USA company because that is what they were selling them as.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So here to it could "look like 22kt gold" but not real '22kt gold'.  Again with lack of markings, stampings or any lit from the manufacture it could be anything, and be 100% legit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You ARE wrong, if it says 22K gold it is highly unlikely that it is not 22K gold. First, because it is the importer who is responsible but if an exporter was found to be substituting something for gold, they would also feel repercussions from US Customs.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *I hate to nitpick *but can you show me USC that gives US Customs control over component quality control?  I cant seem to locate it, my google-fu must be broken today or something.
Click to expand...

Actually you love to nitpick.  US Customs has the power to sieze imports for lots of reasons.   If a foreign company is found to be defrauding US buyers, shipments from that company can be barred from entry into the USA wherever they come from.


----------



## Smitty37

edstreet said:


> Ulises Victoria said:
> 
> 
> 
> So, I have seen several bottom of the line kits labeled as 24kt gold. What are they?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As some of the people posted earlier pricing to get things plated that does very well indeed bring up the lower end kits, i.e. the sub $5-10 kits that claim to be gold plated.  It would seem that the plating is worth more than the underlying meta itself is.  It also makes me wonder if they use something else to plate with to keep cost down to provide lower prices.
Click to expand...

Why?  You've been around long enough to know that saying "24K Gold" is not a marketing positive.  And many low end kits have multiple finishes available why would they lie about the one considered to be the least durable rather than just drop it?  Many sellers here won't touch it with a stick.


----------



## edstreet

has anyone ever sent off some parts to a lab or what not to actually see what materials are in there?  That would be an interesting result.


----------



## Dan Hintz

While digging for other info, I came across this site with some interesting tidbits (future reference):
artisan plating.com - measuring layer thickness on gold plated surfaces, units of measurement, thickness, decorative applications, surface hardness, engineering applications

If we really cared about all of this, the answer to most questions are as simple as going to a local jewelry store and asking if they'll test a few pieces on their stone (bring in a nice bottle of wine as a thank you... a 6-pack of Bud may not cut it here).  They can apply the various strengths of acid, testing on the stone each time, and make an easy determination of the plating's purity.  Done deal, no more supposition.


----------



## edstreet

Also while digging up information today I came across this video.  Yes it is from a VENDOR and what they mention parallels with what I have said.

[ytmini]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SajN21KF95U[/ytmini]

Pen Kits with Gold Plating by Berea Hardwoods offer you a high quality real gold plated pen - YouTube

They list gold colored enamel instead of real gold.


----------



## Smitty37

Berea is also a manufacturer of pen kits, not just a vendor.  That is an advertising video that names no names of anyone doing what Berea claims that "some others" do.  They don't say who, how many or whether those that do are misrepresenting what they sell.

All Berea is really saying is that they use real 24K gold in "most" of their Gold platings - which few of us really doubted anyway. But by your thinking, they could be just 'saying' that to mislead us too. 


But, you saw it on the internet so it must be true.    It falls into the same catigory as you saying "they" might be using enamel - not very well backed up.


----------



## edstreet

Smitty37 said:


> Berea is also a manufacturer of pen kits, not just a vendor.  That is an advertising video that names no names of anyone doing what Berea claims that "some others" do.  They don't say who, how many or whether those that do are misrepresenting what they sell.
> 
> All Berea is really saying is that they use real 24K gold in "most" of their Gold platings - which few of us really doubted anyway. But by your thinking, they could be just 'saying' that to mislead us too.
> 
> 
> But, you saw it on the internet so it must be true.    It falls into the same catigory as you saying "they" might be using enamel - not very well backed up.










Was that not the company who did some testing and found out some of their suppliers were not using gold but something else?  They did mention on the video that 


> some pen kit manufactures provide gold looking pen parts, not real gold



So wonder if they are on IAP here or do I need to call them up and ask them to come on IAP and post on this thread?  I bet they could shed some serious light on things.


----------



## jttheclockman

Get the Dead Horse out please, someone. Put this silly nonsense to bed already. Is there a shaking of the head smiley here. I will use this one a few times

Love to see some of your fabulous blanks that you put on this terrible kits. I want a real laugh. :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin: Get those magnifying loops out on those babies, yea. Lets pick that apart. How about it????


----------



## Smitty37

jttheclockman said:


> Get the Dead Horse out please, someone. Put this silly nonsense to bed already. Is there a shaking of the head smiley here. I will use this one a few times
> 
> Love to see some of your fabulous blanks that you put on this terrible kits. I want a real laugh. :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin: Get those magnifying loops out on those babies, yea. Lets pick that apart. How about it????


John you might as well give up....or stop following the thread...we're having fun.:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:


----------



## edstreet

Actually the thread has been very educational, informative and has good historical value.


----------



## Smitty37

edstreet said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Berea is also a manufacturer of pen kits, not just a vendor.  That is an advertising video that names no names of anyone doing what Berea claims that "some others" do.  They don't say who, how many or whether those that do are misrepresenting what they sell.
> 
> All Berea is really saying is that they use real 24K gold in "most" of their Gold platings - which few of us really doubted anyway. But by your thinking, they could be just 'saying' that to mislead us too.
> 
> 
> But, you saw it on the internet so it must be true.    It falls into the same catigory as you saying "they" might be using enamel - not very well backed up.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Was that not the company who did some testing and found out some of their suppliers were not using gold but something else?  They did mention on the video that
> 
> 
> 
> some pen kit manufactures provide gold looking pen parts, not real gold
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So wonder if they are on IAP here or do I need to call them up and ask them to come on IAP and post on this thread?  I bet they could shed some serious light on things.
Click to expand...

I don't ever recall seeing that they had tested any of their competitor's kits.  They have been manufacturing their own for a long time.  And they don't claim in the video to have done any testing.

I do seem to recall that they claimed something about doing some testing of gold kits for durability (not gold content) based as I recall on how long they stood up to buffing.  Again they did not name any specific manufacturers product but their own.  

I think they have folks who watch this forum and they have a presence here as a well respected producer of Pen Component Sets.  Many of us have done some business with them.  And several vendors offer their products.


----------



## Smitty37

The FTC regulation, applies to jewelery etc. but there is some question whether pen parts qualify as jewelery.  We had discussed this in a thread before and never did find out for sure whether the FTC standard applies.  

At any rate my supplier says they plate 24K gold at .04mm to .06mm - I think they might have misplaced the decimal point because they are saying 40 to 60 microns and they might be meaning 4 to 6 microns which would be almost double the FTC requirement for heavy gold plate I'm asking them to clarify.




LagniappeRob said:


> Those are not Dayacom's stated standards. The FTC requires items marked as "gold plated" to be 20 uInches thick, thus the "required 20 uinches".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (2) An industry product or part thereof, on which there has been affixed on all significant surfaces, by any process, a coating, electroplating, or deposition by any means, of gold or gold alloy of not less than 10 karat fineness that is of substantial thickness,3 and the minimum thickness throughout of which is equivalent to one-half micron (or approximately 20 millionths of an inch) of fine gold,4 may be marked or described as "Gold Plate" or "Gold Plated," or abbreviated, as, for example, G.P. The exact thickness of the plate may be marked on the item, if it is immediately followed by a designation of the karat fineness of the plating which is of equal conspicuousness as the term used (as, for example, "2 microns 12 K. gold plate" or "2µ 12 K. G.P." for an item plated with 2 microns of 12 karat gold.)
Click to expand...


----------



## edstreet

Smitty37 said:


> The FTC regulation, applies to jewelery etc. but there is some question whether pen parts qualify as jewelery.  We had discussed this in a thread before and never did find out for sure whether the FTC standard applies.
> 
> At any rate my supplier says they plate 24K gold at .04mm to .06mm - I think they might have misplaced the decimal point because they are saying 40 to 60 microns and they might be meaning 4 to 6 microns which would be almost double the FTC requirement for heavy gold plate I'm asking them to clarify.



It is good to see you looking and asking questions.


----------



## Parson

I've made one of these kits and didn't think I'd ever sell it at any price (but I finally did). Quality concerns aside, everyone aside from the collector who bought it commented that they thought it was very heavy and the design very VERY "Asian" and over-the-top gaudy. They never bluntly told me this, but when they saw it and put it down and said, "that's interesting" I asked them for their plainspoken opinion and that's what I heard.

It's a pity more high end pen kits aren't available that have a tasteful design. This issue has actually pushed me into the time consuming and not very appreciated kitless penmaking scene. (Well, other penturners and kitless guys appreciate the efforts, but customers don't for the most part!)


----------



## crabcreekind

Parson said:


> I've made one of these kits and didn't think I'd ever sell it at any price (but I finally did). Quality concerns aside, everyone aside from the collector who bought it commented that they thought it was very heavy and the design very VERY "Asian" and over-the-top gaudy. They never bluntly told me this, but when they saw it and put it down and said, "that's interesting" I asked them for their plainspoken opinion and that's what I heard.
> 
> It's a pity more high end pen kits aren't available that have a tasteful design. This issue has actually pushed me into the time consuming and not very appreciated kitless penmaking scene. (Well, other penturners and kitless guys appreciate the efforts, but customers don't for the most part!)



Well said! I stick to mainly simple design kits just because of this. That reason and mainly those dang engraved bands suck to hold on to for more then 2 seconds while writing.


----------



## jttheclockman

Smitty37 said:


> jttheclockman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Get the Dead Horse out please, someone. Put this silly nonsense to bed already. Is there a shaking of the head smiley here. I will use this one a few times
> 
> Love to see some of your fabulous blanks that you put on this terrible kits. I want a real laugh. :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin: Get those magnifying loops out on those babies, yea. Lets pick that apart. How about it????
> 
> 
> 
> John you might as well give up....or stop following the thread...we're having fun.:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:
Click to expand...

 
I am giving up Smitty. 



edstreet said:


> Actually the thread has been very educational, informative and has good historical value.


 

Really Ed. Maybe to you. You and Smitty could have just as well as PM each other. I am sure you will take all the info you gained here and put it into your next 100 pens. I will look for it.


----------



## Smitty37

edstreet said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The FTC regulation, applies to jewelery etc. but there is some question whether pen parts qualify as jewelery.  We had discussed this in a thread before and never did find out for sure whether the FTC standard applies.
> 
> At any rate my supplier says they plate 24K gold at .04mm to .06mm - I think they might have misplaced the decimal point because they are saying 40 to 60 microns and they might be meaning 4 to 6 microns which would be almost double the FTC requirement for heavy gold plate I'm asking them to clarify.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is good to see you looking and asking questions.
Click to expand...

They did mean 4 to 6 microns 5 microns corresponds to the FTC standard for "heavy gold plate" and also to a plated jewelry table I saw that include pens and said typical gold plating on pens was 2.5 to 5 microns which corresponds to 50 to 100 micro inches.  I suspect the the typical would be 4 microns and you'd pay extra to get over that - I am sure there is no great trick to controling the thickness of plating to a "knats eyebrow".  Their base is copper for the tips bands and end caps and manganese steel for clips.  From previous informatation the plating thickness corresponds to other materials I've asked about, namely gun metal and black chrome...Gold TN, Black Ti and Rhodium are much thinner and that corresponds to the recommended thickness for those platings I've seen from American Plating companies.

Several of the finishes we use tend to get brittle if plated too thick and develop cracks, both gold and black TN do, both chrome and black chrome do, and to some extent Rhodium also.  I have gleaned that information reading several American plating sites and looking at their recommendations and why they make them.  They often have different recommendations depending on the size and use of the item to be plated.


----------



## edstreet

Ok, I bought an imperial to try a few hunches.  There have been a few speculations as to how certain things have been introduced, meaning the 'problem' areas that I noted.

So the hunch was get another 'high end' pen from another series with similar layout and see if I could find the same problems or something to indicate HOW the manufacturing was performed.  This would mean that yes the 'problem' areas that I noted was created from the manufacturing techniques vs as designed or as original artwork in the emperor line.

Perhaps the most notable area was the center band.  Well that is the second area that I picked up anyways, first being the end cap designs.





Here we see both center bands side by side.  I noted the gaps to pay note of.  Yes this is visible with the naked eye and I was easy able to pinpoint this.  What we see is a ever so slight cant on a counter clockwise direction for both.  

Moving on.





The end cap  we do see the same gap but it does blend and it is hard pressed to really see it, but it is there, just the angles do indeed match good.






Here we see the end cap side by side.  What we have here is a very notable ring on the emperor which is the 'gap' between the gold and the chrome housing which does stick out like a sore thumb and stands out with the pattern.  While we do have a less notable gap on the imperial it actually blends in with the design.





This is the body end cap, same as the other cap but much more noticeable.

Did you see it?  Probably not, so try this.


...




..
What we have here is the design consumes flaw by the discontinuity of the leaf, while on the emperor it sticks out like a sore thumb due to the parallel lines and 90 degree angles.  This does beg the question of how dirty are the molds when they are used.  The high spots on the insert is the low spots on the molds, where dirt etc builds up.  Probably why the problem is less on the larger cap is larger size = larger crevice in the mold = easier to clean out with the equipment they are using.








The clip is the same layout but less blocky on the imperial. Which I will get to later down.





Here we have side by side, same mirror image layout on the 2 different lines. At the stupidly small photo limits on this site it is very hard to tell some things, so....






This might make it crystal clear.

The text 'parallel lines' is in conjunction with the 'less blocky in the imperial' remark above.  The emperor uses 90 degree angles to induce a drastic contrast which gives it that 'gawdy' appeal, also gives that jump out at you look when viewing it with other pens, it is a break in uniformity and causes you to focus more attention on it, thus influencing buyer bias towards the emperor.

On the imperial the lack of parallel and 90 degree lines forces the pattern to appear mundane and flat.

- concluding this it seems as if the angle difference on the outer ring of the caps is intentional by design while the cant of the center band is likely the manufacturing process precision.  Yet the center band is one of the main focal points on a pen.


Going on from this with the continuity flow of the emperor design when paired with 2 types of blanks, say a flat less descriptive blank the patterns should stick out and yield that 'gawdy' look; while a blank rich in parallel lines and angles should consume the trim designs and get lost in the overall pattern.   The flat blank would likely rely on the trim to sell the pen while the rich blank would take on a whole new 4th dimension and yield rich complex combinations with the right lighting.

So I have to ask.  Of everyone here who has sold emperors, i.e. multiples,  what type of blank pattern was on those that sold.  Also on the flip side, what type of blank pattern took the longer time to sell.  My money is on those blanks with complex angles, curves and some parallel lines.


----------



## Smitty37

I suspect that some is design and some is manufacturing, in anything some designs of similar objects are just easier to get repeatable good results.  I sold Jr Emperor's for awhile, and in several hundred sales never had a buyer return one or even complain about any quality issue, if that holds true for other sellers, it means that even at $60.00 to $75.00 or so per kit the buyers feel that they are getting fair value for doller.  

It could just be that those who would be more critical don't buy them anyway.  It seems to me that if someone is skeptical that any pen kit is worth that much money he/sshe would both tend to be more critical if they paid that much and less likely to buy the kit to begin with.

Just FYI, when I look at mine (I have 2 Emperors and 1 Jr Emperor - no Imperials.) My eye in all three is drawn to the blank, not particularily to any part of the hardware.  The same is true on the much cheaper hardware used on most of the 100 or so pens in my collection.  The hardware is there and if it's wrong for the blank I notice it much more than when the blank and hardware flow well.


----------



## Dan Hintz

I didn't realize there was any speculation left... these are cast pieces, and as such are going to have flaws due to the speed at which they're cranked out.


----------



## edstreet

Dan Hintz said:


> I didn't realize there was any speculation left... these are cast pieces, and as such are going to have flaws due to the speed at which they're cranked out.



Interesting how you quickly pick up something very negative and completely ignore the questions that is ask, same as earlier with shop equipment and the precision claim that you made.

It sounds like you have some knowledge of the companies workflow so do you mind sharing with the rest of us or is it just snipe speculation from the background?


----------



## Dan Hintz

edstreet said:


> Interesting how you quickly pick up something very negative and completely ignore the questions that is ask, same as earlier with shop equipment and the precision claim that you made.
> 
> It sounds like you have some knowledge of the companies workflow so do you mind sharing with the rest of us or is it just snipe speculation from the background?


Do you relish in being a complete jerk to everyone who does not immediately bow down to you, ed?

My comment wasn't made to start a war, it was to point out that I thought we had already answered any of the questions originally raised.  And I believe I answered in detail the question that was asked about my shop, my tools, and my capabilities.

Go bait someone else, you blowhard... either stick to the facts and debate the issue at hand, or ignore my posts, as you seem incapable of accepting any viewpoint but your own.


----------



## jttheclockman

NICEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

I think someone is just showing off their macro camera abilities as if no one else has them. But hey lets make the photos even bigger. Love to see the inside of the material and see the little particles that they are made of. That would be cool.:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:


----------



## Dan Hintz

jttheclockman said:


> But hey lets make the photos even bigger. Love to see the inside of the material and see the little particles that they are made of. That would be cool.:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:


Now John, are you trying to goad me into putting a pen into my electron microscope? :wink: :biggrin:


----------



## jyreene

Dan Hintz said:


> Now John, are you trying to goad me into putting a pen into my electron microscope? :wink: :biggrin:



If he's not can I? Purely out of "I love seeing images from electron microscopes and guessing where that come from".


----------



## Smitty37

I already posted (somewhere) a reproduction of a photo of the IBM logo on what is claimed to be 35 atoms.


----------



## Smitty37

Well I've had about as much fun with this thread as I can stand so I'm going to leave it ---- John if you are reading this - that means that instead of complaining about "beating a dead horse" I am going to stop reading the thread.:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:


----------



## edstreet

Dan Hintz said:


> edstreet said:
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting how you quickly pick up something very negative and completely ignore the questions that is ask, same as earlier with shop equipment and the precision claim that you made.
> 
> It sounds like you have some knowledge of the companies workflow so do you mind sharing with the rest of us or is it just snipe speculation from the background?
> 
> 
> 
> Do you relish in being a complete jerk to everyone who does not immediately bow down to you, ed?
> 
> My comment wasn't made to start a war, it was to point out that I thought we had already answered any of the questions originally raised.  And I believe I answered in detail the question that was asked about my shop, my tools, and my capabilities.
> 
> Go bait someone else, you blowhard... either stick to the facts and debate the issue at hand, or ignore my posts, as you seem incapable of accepting any viewpoint but your own.
Click to expand...


Looks like you took things way out of context.  Nor did I see anywhere the answers that you gave, but I will look again.



jttheclockman said:


> NICEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
> 
> I think someone is just showing off their macro camera abilities as if no one else has them. But hey lets make the photos even bigger. Love to see the inside of the material and see the little particles that they are made of. That would be cool.:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:



Not showing off at all, that is not something that I do.  I do think that everyone should be taking good quality photo's, its not difficult nor expensive


----------



## jttheclockman

Smitty37 said:


> Well I've had about as much fun with this thread as I can stand so I'm going to leave it ---- John if you are reading this - that means that instead of complaining about "beating a dead horse" I am going to stop reading the thread.:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:


 

Smitty

I get your little jab and feel it and I will throw a few of these in there too:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

This is like an accident you see on the side of the road. You know you have to look at the disaster and believe me this was a disaster and I do not care what ED thinks or says and how informative it was because it wasn't. The pure bottom line to this BS is if you do not like a pen kit then DO NOT buy it. Get it ED ED ED ED It was all about showing off his Macro photo skills pure and simple. Look at his other posts and look at the more macro photos. 

My opinion ED and Smitty. Oh by the way.:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:


----------



## Dan Hintz

jttheclockman said:


> showing off... Macro photo skills


John,

I have included a handful of photos for you, just below.  They showcase my new Micro photo skills.  I hope you enjoy them...
















.


----------



## SteveG

Nice dot


----------



## Dan Hintz

SteveG said:


> Nice dot


Give it a second or two, Steve... it'll sink in :wink:


----------



## SteveG

I slept on it...Nice dot. I like it more today.:wink:
Steve


----------



## OKLAHOMAN

SteveG said:


> I slept on it...Nice dot. I like it more today.:wink:
> Steve


 
ROTFLMAO:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:


----------



## wood-of-1kind

1 dot = brilliance

If 2 dots = pure genius

I love this posting and the 'nice' sparring that has gone along with it. Reminds of old times when we had members actually saying witty things.


----------



## edstreet

For shame, 

I once had a post edited, yes content changed, for spaces such as this. Alas before further indulging in topic stray I would like to point out that yes indeed I did look and no there were no answer reply to questions put directly to you.  Tho with credit due wild chatter pursued and wagging tongues fell silent.




Dan Hintz said:


> jttheclockman said:
> 
> 
> 
> showing off... Macro photo skills
> 
> 
> 
> John,
> 
> I have included a handful of photos for you, just below.  They showcase my new Micro photo skills.  I hope you enjoy them...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
Click to expand...



jttheclockman,  yes there were other topic threads which to show photo's yet this one remained true to form of topic until devious deceptive derailed the good intentions thus showing true nature of intelligence.


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## Dan Hintz

edstreet said:


> For shame,
> 
> I once had a post edited, yes content changed, for spaces such as this. Alas before further indulging in topic stray I would like to point out that yes indeed I did look and no there were no answer reply to questions put directly to you.  Tho with credit due wild chatter pursued and wagging tongues fell silent.
> 
> 
> jttheclockman,  yes there were other topic threads which to show photo's yet this one remained true to form of topic until devious deceptive derailed the good intentions thus showing true nature of intelligence.


Dear God, man, get over yourself already!  You've worn out your welcome with me before I ever got a chance to have a beer with you... impressive.





To the rest of you...Good luck, guys, it looks like you're going to need it.  I'm done with this thread.  (Blank lines added above for dramatic effect)


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## OLDMAN5050

As Rodney King once said " Why can't we just all get along" ?


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## edstreet

OLDMAN5050 said:


> As Rodney King once said " Why can't we just all get along" ?



We are getting along great for the most part.  Just had one boastful claim that I know to be untrue and after calling on it there has been nothing to back up the claim or even to show examples of.

Other than that there have been some good discovery and information shared.


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## OKLAHOMAN

wood-of-1kind said:


> 1 dot = brilliance
> 
> If 2 dots = pure genius
> 
> I love this posting and the 'nice' sparring that has gone along with it. Reminds of old times when we had members actually saying witty things.



Yep, I miss Cav too:biggrin:


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## georgestanley032

I have sold several full sized Emperors. I use them to make special pens like 6 stranded celtic knots, watch parts pens, etc. None of my customer has had a complaint. In fact, one of them told me that he likes better and uses more often my Emperor pen than his two Mont Blancs


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## jttheclockman

Ulises Victoria said:


> I have sold several full sized Emperors. I use them to make special pens like 6 stranded celtic knots, watch parts pens, etc. None of my customer has had a complaint. In fact, one of them told me that he likes better and uses more often my Emperor pen than his two Mont Blancs





georgestanley032 said:


> I have sold several full sized Emperors. I use them to make special pens like 6 stranded celtic knots, watch parts pens, etc. None of my customer has had a complaint. In fact, one of them told me that he likes better and uses more often my Emperor pen than his two Mont Blancs





Now what do we have here????  Interesting Mr. Watson.



How was this person able to post to a closed thread????  Look here....  http://www.penturners.org/forum/f14/pen-hat-8032/index28.html

There is something strange going on.


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## jeff

jttheclockman said:


> Ulises Victoria said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have sold several full sized Emperors. I use them to make special pens like 6 stranded celtic knots, watch parts pens, etc. None of my customer has had a complaint. In fact, one of them told me that he likes better and uses more often my Emperor pen than his two Mont Blancs
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> georgestanley032 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have sold several full sized Emperors. I use them to make special pens like 6 stranded celtic knots, watch parts pens, etc. None of my customer has had a complaint. In fact, one of them told me that he likes better and uses more often my Emperor pen than his two Mont Blancs
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now what do we have here????  Interesting Mr. Watson.
> 
> 
> 
> How was this person able to post to a closed thread????  Look here....  http://www.penturners.org/forum/f14/pen-hat-8032/index28.html
> 
> There is something strange going on.
Click to expand...


Nothing strange is going on.

I closed that thread after he made that post. I didn't think it was necessary to be posting into a 7 year old thread.

Regarding what looks like a copy paste, I think the user tried to quote that post and messed up the BB code in the post.


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## jttheclockman

jeff said:


> jttheclockman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ulises Victoria said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have sold several full sized Emperors. I use them to make special pens like 6 stranded celtic knots, watch parts pens, etc. None of my customer has had a complaint. In fact, one of them told me that he likes better and uses more often my Emperor pen than his two Mont Blancs
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> georgestanley032 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have sold several full sized Emperors. I use them to make special pens like 6 stranded celtic knots, watch parts pens, etc. None of my customer has had a complaint. In fact, one of them told me that he likes better and uses more often my Emperor pen than his two Mont Blancs
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now what do we have here????  Interesting Mr. Watson.
> 
> 
> 
> How was this person able to post to a closed thread????  Look here....  http://www.penturners.org/forum/f14/pen-hat-8032/index28.html
> 
> There is something strange going on.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Nothing strange is going on.
> 
> I closed that thread after he made that post. I didn't think it was necessary to be posting into a 7 year old thread.
> 
> Regarding what looks like a copy paste, I think the user tried to quote that post and messed up the BB code in the post.
Click to expand...



Thanks Jeff

I was having flashbacks. Thought I might have to cut back on the caffeine.


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## Smitty37

jeff said:


> jttheclockman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ulises Victoria said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have sold several full sized Emperors. I use them to make special pens like 6 stranded celtic knots, watch parts pens, etc. None of my customer has had a complaint. In fact, one of them told me that he likes better and uses more often my Emperor pen than his two Mont Blancs
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> georgestanley032 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have sold several full sized Emperors. I use them to make special pens like 6 stranded celtic knots, watch parts pens, etc. None of my customer has had a complaint. In fact, one of them told me that he likes better and uses more often my Emperor pen than his two Mont Blancs
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now what do we have here????  Interesting Mr. Watson.
> 
> 
> 
> How was this person able to post to a closed thread????  Look here....  http://www.penturners.org/forum/f14/pen-hat-8032/index28.html
> 
> There is something strange going on.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Nothing strange is going on.
> 
> I closed that thread after he made that post. I didn't think it was necessary to be posting into a *7 year old thread.
> *
> Regarding what looks like a copy paste, I think the user tried to quote that post and messed up the BB code in the post.
Click to expand...

hmmmm....my arithmetic must calculate time elapsed between two dates different than yours.  I see the OP as July 2013 about 2 1/2 years ago.:biggrin:


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## jttheclockman

Smitty37 said:


> jeff said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jttheclockman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ulises Victoria said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have sold several full sized Emperors. I use them to make special pens like 6 stranded celtic knots, watch parts pens, etc. None of my customer has had a complaint. In fact, one of them told me that he likes better and uses more often my Emperor pen than his two Mont Blancs
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> georgestanley032 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have sold several full sized Emperors. I use them to make special pens like 6 stranded celtic knots, watch parts pens, etc. None of my customer has had a complaint. In fact, one of them told me that he likes better and uses more often my Emperor pen than his two Mont Blancs
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now what do we have here????  Interesting Mr. Watson.
> 
> 
> 
> How was this person able to post to a closed thread????  Look here....  http://www.penturners.org/forum/f14/pen-hat-8032/index28.html
> 
> There is something strange going on.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Nothing strange is going on.
> 
> I closed that thread after he made that post. I didn't think it was necessary to be posting into a *7 year old thread.
> *
> Regarding what looks like a copy paste, I think the user tried to quote that post and messed up the BB code in the post.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> hmmmm....my arithmetic must calculate time elapsed between two dates different than yours.  I see the OP as July 2013 about 2 1/2 years ago.:biggrin:
Click to expand...



Smitty, read the post carefully  The 7 year old thread in question was from 2008 Pen in the Hat.


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## Smitty37

I did JJ he said "posting into a 7 year old thread".  Since it is posting into THIS thread, that implies that this thread is 7 years old.  Had he said "posting from a 7 year old thread" I wouldn't have posted.


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## jttheclockman

Smitty37 said:


> I did JJ he said "posting into a 7 year old thread".  Since it is posting into THIS thread, that implies that this thread is 7 years old.  Had he said "posting from a 7 year old thread" I wouldn't have posted.




Oh joy, Jeff  was answering to the 2 strange things I mentioned in that post. The first is where the same thread was repeated by 2 different people and then the Pen in the hat thread. Like I said read the thread carefully and even you will get it. Come on Smitty you are smarter than that.


----------



## Smitty37

jttheclockman said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I did JJ he said "posting into a 7 year old thread".  Since it is posting into THIS thread, that implies that this thread is 7 years old.  Had he said "posting from a 7 year old thread" I wouldn't have posted.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh joy, Jeff  was answering to the 2 strange things I mentioned in that post. The first is where the same thread was repeated by 2 different people and then the Pen in the hat thread. Like I said read the thread carefully and even you will get it. Come on Smitty you are smarter than that.
Click to expand...

OK I will acknowledge there is a post into a 7 year old thread (pen in the hat) also a post into this thread 2 1/2 years old.  I was looking at the post in this thread.


----------

