# Problem with Jr.Gents - Internal thread on cap, coming loose?



## philb (Jan 12, 2011)

Hi,

Im aware of the thread issue thats been bought up recently due to threads not mating smoothly but this one is different thread problem!!

Ive had a couple of Jr,Gents returned as the cap will not thread to either the nib end or the postable end. On further inverstiagtion the internal threaded part has come lose from the centerband? So the black part is now to high up in the upper barrel to mate with the threads.

Has anyone else had this problem? I assume a dab of superglue will fix the issue on the parts that have parted company?

Also does anyone do anything to prevent this happening, as I dont want pens im making to be returned! Especially with the Jr.Gent as the fountains and rollerballs are some of my most popular models.

PHIL


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## Russianwolf (Jan 12, 2011)

In my experience, this happens when people play with their pen. They will unscrew part way and then press together, pushing the threaded piece up the tube until they aren't able to "grab" it any longer.

Or they unscrew and try to press together like a snap pen. 

That black piece isn't really that loose, so this is my experience.


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## lwalden (Jan 12, 2011)

As to doing something to help prevent this from happening, I use loctite red gel when assembling my pens- as you might guess, when press fitting the center coupler and the black nylon threaded section into the barrel, most of the loctitie gel ends up between the brass tube and the black nylon threaded section, which I believe helps hold it in place.


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## PenMan1 (Jan 12, 2011)

A small dab of RED Loctite thread lock compound between the "black threaded part" and the inside of the centerband will keep this from happening.

In my shop, putting Loctite on the cap/clipholder and centerband have become standard operating procedure on Jr. Gents II. For some reason the TN models "move around" a bit more than the others.


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## ed4copies (Jan 12, 2011)

I think Mike makes a very valid point.

When we sell pens to customers those pens work.  If the customer finds a way to "screw them up", they may come back for repair.  I used to do these repairs free, but as I read more and more here, I think we should charge for these repairs and the parts we need to fix them.

Personally, I sold a few fountain pens with "rollerball options".  I took the rollerball nib end and spring and made the pen convertible.   Charge about $20.  This gave me a few "parts kits" that were missing their rollerball "nib" and spring, but a place to scrounge parts.

If we FIX these customer-caused problems at no charge, what is their incentive to treat the pen better, in the future??  So, the pen "breaks" again and you get the bad rap for their carelessness.

As an "industry", I think we should consider what we are doing to ourselves.

FWIW,

Ed


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## Texatdurango (Jan 12, 2011)

ed4copies said:


> .........If we FIX these customer-caused problems at no charge, what is their incentive to treat the pen better, in the future?? ........
> 
> Ed


 
I think along these lines, a little customer education is on order as well.  If the customer is told.... "The cap on this pen SCREWS onto the lower body, it IS NOT designed to be pulled apart, pressed together or chewed on!"


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## jttheclockman (Jan 12, 2011)

ed4copies said:


> I think Mike makes a very valid point.
> 
> When we sell pens to customers those pens work. If the customer finds a way to "screw them up", they may come back for repair. I used to do these repairs free, but as I read more and more here, I think we should charge for these repairs and the parts we need to fix them.
> 
> ...


 

Ed you have a valid point. I do the same thing when people bring back clocks I made or something else. I have been repairing for free hoping to entice other buyers from word of mouth. Has it proved itself to be the case I am not sure because no one has come to me and told me that was the reason they are buying from me. I have had repeat customers come back to purchase other things and maybe that was one of the reasons.

I guess what I am saying that is one of those damned if you do or damned if you don't things. I am on the fence with this one.

Now to the problem. If anyone has followed my recent stainless stell braided pen saga. I ran into a bit of a plating problem with the kit parts having too thick plating and caused the ends to crack when I inserted. Jeff was kind enough to post a remedy and in that remedy the key was that that black threaded piece was able to come apart from the coupler. If it had not I was not going to save that kit. So my point on this is if you glue that black plastic nylon thread coupler to the metal coupler and you need to take that kit apart you may not be able to do it. I don't think locktite is going to glue plastic to metal so I think that is futile. I guess maybe charging to fix it would be the thing to do in this case especially if it was explained how the pen operates. Just my 2¢


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## PenMan1 (Jan 12, 2011)

Red Loctite WILL help remedy this situation. Additionally, if the pen still needs to be disassembled, this CAN be accomplished without damage, simply by adding a small amount of heat with a hair dryer before disassembly.

It is the best fix that I have found for the "floating thread syndrome".


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## PenMan1 (Jan 12, 2011)

As far as the "glob of Loctite" inside the tube, it can easily be eliminated from the inside the tube with a small feminine hygene product. You MAY have some explaining to do as to why you need these "tools of the trade", but it works. DAMHIKT


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## YouthMinisterDan (Jan 12, 2011)

PenMan1 said:


> As far as the "glob of Loctite" inside the tube, it can easily be eliminated from the inside the tube with a small feminine hygene product. You MAY have some explaining to do as to why you need these "tools of the trade", but it works. DAMHIKT




I'm not going to ask how you found out that it works....


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## philb (Jan 12, 2011)

So red loctite on the joint between the centerband and the black threaded part! I was going to try CA, but might quite hard to get a small enough on to fit in the tube! So I'll get some red loctite!

Glad I'm not the only one with thread-issues!!

Phil


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## ed4copies (Jan 12, 2011)

jttheclockman said:


> Ed you have a valid point. I do the same thing when people bring back clocks I made or something else. I have been repairing for free hoping to entice other buyers from word of mouth. Has it proved itself to be the case I am not sure because no one has come to me and told me that was the reason they are buying from me. I have had repeat customers come back to purchase other things and maybe that was one of the reasons.
> 
> I guess what I am saying that is one of those damned if you do or damned if you don't things. I am on the fence with this one.



In giving this issue some thought, I weighed the "goodwill" against the "education".  If I do it for free (goodwill), they will likely break it again.  If I charge (education), they will be less likely to break it again (opinion).

But, I also thought "When was the last time a "Professional" did something for me, for free??"

We EXPECT to PAY for quality services.  So, when we don't pay, do we place as high a VALUE on the service??

Just food for thought--I look forward to reading YOUR thoughts.


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## ctubbs (Jan 12, 2011)

--I look forward to reading YOUR thoughts.[/quote]

Look into my eyes.  Look very deep into my eyes.  No do not do that!  You just might see just who I am and that would scare me!
Sorry Ed.  The Devil made me do that.
Charels


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## srf1114 (Jan 12, 2011)

I agree with the damn if you do, damned if you dont.

If you dont fix it, is the customer going to look at you as if your not willing to stand by your product? That, IMO, is a sure fire way to garentee they never buy from you again.  
Unless that person comes in and say "hey I did this, and "I" broke my pen, can you fix it. " They feel that the break is a flaw in the material or workmanship, and not their fault. If they feel that way, then they will not be happy with a charge to fix it.  Which in turns means a lost customer. 

I think I would just fix it. How long does it actually take you to fix it? 5 minutes? 10? That is easy work if it gives you a satisfied customer, plus you can take the time to let them know what caused the issue in the first.


Now if a person comes in and the item has obviously been used as a chew toy by the family  pet/kid,  well there needs to be responsiblity in owership as well.


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## jttheclockman (Jan 12, 2011)

ed4copies said:


> jttheclockman said:
> 
> 
> > Ed you have a valid point. I do the same thing when people bring back clocks I made or something else. I have been repairing for free hoping to entice other buyers from word of mouth. Has it proved itself to be the case I am not sure because no one has come to me and told me that was the reason they are buying from me. I have had repeat customers come back to purchase other things and maybe that was one of the reasons.
> ...


 

*When we go back for warrenty work. 
Do we issue a warrenty with our pens and if so what are the conditions??? I issue a life time warrenty on the clock parts I use and have no problem honoring it and have. I can not issue a warrenty on mishandeling of the item. Is this a case of mishandling?? You can say that. But you can also say that the makers of the kit did not make it idiot prove. They could do a better job making these pieces so that they are not able to seperate.

*They did pay once for the high quality service they thought they were getting when they paid alot more money for a fine writing utensil. I think it may speak high volumes if we stand behind our high quality work with abit of assurance that the product won't fail. Yes this pen was mishandled but again it can be avoided if (1) we did a good job of instructing the person how to properly use the pen and (2) if the maker of the kit had done a better job in there end of a quality product. I understand if a person abuses it by dropping it or leaving in extreme conditions that is another issue. But this is more a mechanical issue and to me a flaw in design. Sometimes people forget and maybe the person has different styled pens and forgot how each one opened and closed. A mistake was made. 

A case can be made for both sides of the isle here in my opinion. So I still sit on the fence on this one and will have to take each case individually I guess. 



Those my friend are my thoughts.


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## ed4copies (Jan 12, 2011)

Thanks John.

Your point about a warranty is a good one.  AND, the customer HAS paid handsomely for a "better experience".

So, I think I agree we should call it warranty repair.  

Without assessing fault, the real problem in most instances recently is the threading being movable (Jr. Gent and sierra are both suffering from the same disease).  Seems like gluing in the "piece with the threads" might be a worthwhile change to our "kit" instructions.


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## IPD_Mrs (Jan 12, 2011)

The black plastic insert for the cap center band on the Jr. Gent II, Jr Retro and any other pen that uses this set up, separates from the metal.  It has done it for years because it is a press fit and not secured to the metal.  This happened in May of 08 to one of Eagles pens at the Chicago show.  The known fix is to secure the two pieces before assembly.  Andy has a great solution.  You can also pull the pieces apart, use a tooth pick and put a couple of very small dabs of CA at the joint and press it back together wiping off any excess CA.  Set it aside and let the CA cure fully before putting the pen together.  If you do not it will frost up the plating of the nib from the fumes. (damhikt).  It is not entirely the customers fault that these two pieces separate.  Save yourself a ton of headaches and fix the problem before the customer ever gets the pen.  I really like Andy's idea and will start trying that.


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## PenMan1 (Jan 12, 2011)

Thanks for the kudos, Mike. My approach to customer service has always been "first, let's solve the problem, then we will worry about the money". Once the issue has been resolved, I have been known to a present a bill for what the "fix" should have cost, then "red line" through those numbers and make it a no charge invoice".

This approach "resolves" me from the responsibility for the mishap, makes me a customer service "hero", creates a teachable moment and helps me to keep this from happening, AGAIN!

On the professional side, I WILL ALWAYS USE RED LOCTITE to secure JR. GENTS (I did use blue, but LBD2000 (Butch) helped me see the errors of my ways), because this component set has given me every problem know to man.

Respectfully submitted.


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## philb (Jan 12, 2011)

Is red the stronger binding version? As I've used blue before, but that didn't take much force to break the lock?

Phil


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## PenMan1 (Jan 12, 2011)

philbaldwin said:


> Is red the stronger binding version? As I've used blue before, but that didn't take much force to break the lock?
> 
> Phil


 

IMHO, YES! Red Locktite thread compound is sold as "permanent" thread lock.


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## philb (Jan 12, 2011)

Sounds ideal!!


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## Carrick (Jan 12, 2011)

So just to throw it out there. I have experienced difficulties with two of my pens with cross threading the black insert piece and need to replace them. I did the search on the site (probably not using the right keywords). I would like to order specific pen parts (like these black threaded inserts). Anyone know where to order individual parts? Please PM me. I do not want to high-jack this thread. Thank you in advance.


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## zig613 (Jan 12, 2011)

Has anyone using loctite or permatex noticed any adverse effects when used to seal in the plastic thread insert into the cap of the pen?  I see on the permatex (blue) label that it says "this product is not normally recommended for use on plastics".

Wade


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## jttheclockman (Jan 13, 2011)

Carrick said:


> So just to throw it out there. I have experienced difficulties with two of my pens with cross threading the black insert piece and need to replace them. I did the search on the site (probably not using the right keywords). I would like to order specific pen parts (like these black threaded inserts). Anyone know where to order individual parts? Please PM me. I do not want to high-jack this thread. Thank you in advance.


 
I do not know of any place where you can get those part. But maybe someone else has an idea.




zig613 said:


> Has anyone using loctite or permatex noticed any adverse effects when used to seal in the plastic thread insert into the cap of the pen? I see on the permatex (blue) label that it says "this product is not normally recommended for use on plastics".
> 
> Wade


 

Wade, I have not used it yet so I am still not convinced loctite will adhere to plastic. It is designed to make a metal to metal bond. Now I won't say it doesn't but as of yet I have not tried it. I will be using a dab of CA on mine. I don't want to bond the coupler to the barrel or I will never get it apart. If I lose the black threaded part so be it at least I did not lose the blank.


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## nativewooder (Jan 13, 2011)

There seem to be enough incidental problems with various pen kits.  Why should I spend good money to buy kits that have specific problems caused by poor design/manufacture?! (Rhetorical)  I would much rather build good solid pens, if there are such kits.


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## jttheclockman (Jan 13, 2011)

nativewooder said:


> There seem to be enough incidental problems with various pen kits. Why should I spend good money to buy kits that have specific problems caused by poor design/manufacture?! (Rhetorical) I would much rather build good solid pens, if there are such kits.


 

Good luck with that. So you are taking up knitting???:biggrin:


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## philb (Feb 5, 2011)

So are people taking the Center-band and black thread apart and then gluing back together? Or are they add a glue seam around the joint whilst still pressed together?

PHIL


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## toddlajoie (Feb 5, 2011)

philbaldwin said:


> So are people taking the Center-band and black thread apart and then gluing back together? Or are they add a glue seam around the joint whilst still pressed together?
> 
> PHIL



I just did a repair on a personal pen that a friend broke (pulled it apart rather than twisting the cap off) I had called CSUSA because I was going to place and order to see if I could buy a replacement part, and was very clear that it was broken by mis-use, but they informed me that "they had had other complaints about failure of the threads:wink:" and would replace it for free. They ended up sending me over 1/2 of a 10K kit (cap & clip, center band and insert, and entire final assembly, just no tubes or nib assembly)

I use a small tube of blue locktite and put a light ring of it inside the tube before I press the parts in, then leave the pen un-assembled overnight to allow the loctite to dry. As for it not bonding to plastic, I can't say for sure, but it hasn't done any harm, and if it holds it a bit more than without, then it is helping, as using CA will make it difficult to take apart without damaging it.


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## renowb (Feb 5, 2011)

Being in the oil business all my life, that is all we used to assemble the downhole tools. The blue for removeable parts and the red will hold forever. To get it apart, we always had to use a torch to heat the metal while we loosened the part. Don't know if it would work for plastic though.


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## arioux (Feb 5, 2011)

I use red locktite gel on every pen that i make, where part can get loose.  I never had problem since.

As far as plastic gooes, here is the comment from locktite site:


"Do not:
"Use on plastic parts, particularly thermoplastic materials where stress cracking of the plastic could result".

This is because the locktite make the joint permannent and no more flexibility can occurs and the plastic could break if stressed.  We are talking about eavy  "industrial" uses here.  Permanent joint on a pen is ok for me

I use it all the time on center bands, clip assembly so the clip won't start to rotate after 6 mounts, and anywhere i fell a part can get loose as long as it don't interfer with the pen fonction.

I use the gel one, a lot more easier and les messy to apply that the liquid form.

I still have to find a finish or plating that locktite will dammage so cleaning of the excess is easy. As for the drying time, locktite set in just few minutes in absence of air.

Q-tips will help clean the inside of the tube of the excess, as this won't dry because it is expose to air.


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## leestoresund (Feb 5, 2011)

I recently had to take a Jr Gent apart where I had used the red loctite. The heat did not work (at least not in the time frame I wanted, the cap was Trustone.)

After talking with Andy I used a diabetes syringe and put some DNA around the inside of the tube at the plastic part. After about 2 minutes it came apart using an endcap threaded into the plastic piece and pushed towards the top (after removing the clip). A transfer punch removed the CB.

Lee


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## philb (Feb 5, 2011)

So people are putting the Ca or loctite to seal the threaded part to the inside of the tube, so stopping it moving up the tube. 

Have people tried fixing the joint between the centerband and the threaded part?

Phil


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## furini (Jun 12, 2011)

Hmmm...made my first Gents pen and this happened to me!  What's the procedure for getting the black plastic threaded part to stop spinning round inside the center coupler once the pen is assembled?  I 'broke' this one by slightly overscrewing the lid...

Any help gratefully received!


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## toddlajoie (Jun 12, 2011)

I'm not aware of any way to fix it without fully disassembling the cap that would not be significantly more work/mess. Best option is to grab some transfer punches and a hammer, and something that will hold your cap and not scuff it if it moves around too much ( I use one of those rubber jar openers, but I've heard others using leather and other things...) Find a punch that fits through the threads and slides in and out without any force needed, and use that one to pop off the cap and clip end. Then find one that fits just barely inside the brass tube, again without needing to push it in , but as near to the internal diameter as possible, and use that one to pop out the center band and threads. With any luck, your threads are not broken to the point that they won't mate up to the center band, and you can bond them as others have suggested here and re-assemble. I would suggest you loctite both the threads/centerband together AND both the cap and centerband into the tube, as every time I've disassembled a pen, when it went back together it was WAY less snug a fit than the first time, often being able to press the parts all the way in by hand...


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## furini (Jun 13, 2011)

Thanks for the help - I'll give it a go and see what happens!

Cheers, Stewart


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