# CA vs lacquer vs ?????



## Monty (Nov 29, 2010)

I know the general consensus is that CA is _the_ best to finish a pen. However, for those that sell high end pens, ie. pens selling for $200 and more, what do you thing is the best finish for a high end pen?
CA? Spray Lacquer? Lacquer dip? Something else?


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## JerrySambrook (Nov 29, 2010)

Mannie,
   To me, this depends on what the material is.
I would not put a shiny finish on most dark woods, ie walnut, bog oak, and even some of the rosewoods.
The most expensive pen I have ever had was a California Rosewood root Ultra Cigar that was finished with 5 coats of an oil finish called Arrow Oil.
Created a deep looking sheen without ovrpowering the figure of the wood.
In fact, I would say well over half of my dark woods have been finished with this.
I have also used shellac as a sealer and lacquer as a finish on many many pens as well over the twenty years or so I have been doing these
Lately, for finishing, I am getting into using Plexitone, but I have also been looking at the forum that last few weeks, and will probably go to using the oil based finishes where I can, as they do a great job of sealing without overpowering the figure (you can see the grain, and not just shine).
I think we are making our stuff "too plastic" and losing the reality of the wood products.
As for bone, antler, etc, A good fine polishing where it can be done is as good as any finish that can be put on.  If there is pith however, I will fill it with thin ca many times over, until the ca is proud of the surface, then turn down to final size.
Lastly, I use Ren wax on almost everything, as this is great for keeping fingerprints down and reducing damages due to peoples acids and oils from the touching that occurs.

Hope this answers what you were asking


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## Smitty37 (Nov 29, 2010)

*Well said*



JerrySambrook said:


> Mannie,
> To me, this depends on what the material is.
> I would not put a shiny finish on most dark woods, ie walnut, bog oak, and even some of the rosewoods.
> The most expensive pen I have ever had was a California Rosewood root Ultra Cigar that was finished with 5 coats of an oil finish called Arrow Oil.
> ...


 I'm with you on this one.


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## ldb2000 (Nov 29, 2010)

I have a slimline pro that I made when I was just starting out . It was a piece of beautiful Camphor burl , it had lots of eyes and a golden chatoyance , I used Mylands on it and it looked wonderful ..... for about a week . Then it started to get that wonderful "Patina" you all seem to love so much . As time went on the "Patina" kept building and the fricton polish was replaced by that wonderful "Patina" . The once beautiful burl had now been covered by a brownish "Patina" , the eyes weren't so visible anymore and the golden chatoyance was almost completely gone . I took the pen apart and refinished the top section with a CA finish . The CA finish doesn't feel like wood anymore but the golden chatoyance is back and you can see the eyes and figure of the wood again . 
When I make a High End wood pen and the customer states that they want it to feel like wood I show them that pen and ask which finish they want , guess which one they ALWAYS pick ? If someone is spending big money on a pen they want it to look good no matter how "Tactile" a person they are , heck even if they are only spending $35 for a slimline they want that pen to look good and I have never gotten an argument for a "Patina" . 
Personally If I'm spending good money on ANY wood item I want to see the color and figure that is in the wood , not some grime that is passed off as "Patina" . If you don't like the shiny gloss of a polished CA finish there are several ways to cut the gloss without loosing the durability of a CA or other good finish . Just my $0.02 .


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## ctubbs (Nov 29, 2010)

Somewhere on this site a few weeks back, there was a post where the feel of the pen was checked out.  the results were, to the best of my poor memory, that a satin finish felt like wood while a polished finish did not.  This individual had polished bare wood to a high shine but left a CA finish dull.  Everyone thought the CA finish was bre wood while the highly polished wood was plastic feeling.  Our eyes tell our brains lies from time to time.  The finish is all in the preception.  With this info, we can still protect the beautiful wood from grime/patena while still giving the customer the feel of bare wood.  Just my $0.02 again.  I'm just full of worthless $0.02 ain't I?
Charles


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## nativewooder (Nov 29, 2010)

The tendency, according to Russ Fairfield, who probably knows more finishing secrets than all of us put together, is to put too much wax (friction polish, etc.) on any piece of wood.  His thought is to use a natural bristle brush and clean as much of the wax off as is reasonably possible and then re-buff the item, whether pen, vase, bowl, or whatever.  Most of the grit, grime, and grunge that we transfer to things that we handle winds up in the wax (finish) but not in the wood.  Russ is back home after having brain surgery a few weeks back and I hope when he recovers, he will provide more of his immense knowledge to all of us. Another .02.


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## KDM (Dec 7, 2010)

JerrySambrook said:


> I have also used shellac as a sealer and lacquer as a finish on many many pens as well over the twenty years or so I have been doing these



Does the shellac finish on a pen break down with grease from fingertips after a while?


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## bitshird (Dec 7, 2010)

I have a few pens that were done a couple of years ago that were finished with aDeft Lacquer sanding sealer and several coats of Deft spray lacquer, they still look good, I do a lot of pens with CA, but I honestly don't like the feel of it, Lacquer seems to hold up well and if sprayed in a proper manner seems to hold up quite well, I've used Mylands friction polish on bowls and things like that but no way on a pen.


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## JerrySambrook (Dec 7, 2010)

KDM said:


> JerrySambrook said:
> 
> 
> > I have also used shellac as a sealer and lacquer as a finish on many many pens as well over the twenty years or so I have been doing these
> ...



The shellac is not the top coat finish, but is a goos sealer and/or intermediate coat for the lacquer.
Depending on the wood and the grain, I might pop the grain with some oil (Arrow wood finish), then let dry, coat with shellac, let dry, smooth if necessary, then a few coats of lacquer.
I will then put a coating of ren wax on to keep acids down from people who would be handling before purchase.
A few years back I bought 20 sample jars of ren wax that I was including with the higher end pens I was doing and letting the customers know about applying like we would a wood floor. Just not as heavy


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## JerrySambrook (Dec 7, 2010)

ldb2000 said:


> I have a slimline pro that I made when I was just starting out . It was a piece of beautiful Camphor burl , it had lots of eyes and a golden chatoyance , I used Mylands on it and it looked wonderful ..... for about a week . Then it started to get that wonderful "Patina" you all seem to love so much . As time went on the "Patina" kept building and the fricton polish was replaced by that wonderful "Patina" . The once beautiful burl had now been covered by a brownish "Patina" , the eyes weren't so visible anymore and the golden chatoyance was almost completely gone . I took the pen apart and refinished the top section with a CA finish . The CA finish doesn't feel like wood anymore but the golden chatoyance is back and you can see the eyes and figure of the wood again .
> When I make a High End wood pen and the customer states that they want it to feel like wood I show them that pen and ask which finish they want , guess which one they ALWAYS pick ? If someone is spending big money on a pen they want it to look good no matter how "Tactile" a person they are , heck even if they are only spending $35 for a slimline they want that pen to look good and I have never gotten an argument for a "Patina" .
> Personally If I'm spending good money on ANY wood item I want to see the color and figure that is in the wood , not some grime that is passed off as "Patina" . If you don't like the shiny gloss of a polished CA finish there are several ways to cut the gloss without loosing the durability of a CA or other good finish . Just my $0.02 .



Butch, it sounds like YOU use too much Mylands when you apply.
Would you gob on a whole bunch of CA at once, or any other finish for that matter? Kinda sounds like you do from your negativity to everything but CA.
Maybe, if you tried to apply in layers instead of all at once, then things might work much better for you.
Also, after seeing a few of your posts, that you do everything you can to have the customer take your pens your way.
Do I use friction polishs, yes, on items that will not be handled so much, but I also have experimented and learned where it can and can't be used as well.

As for petina, it is a great thing. but some of us appreciate wood for what it is as well. And yes up here where I do sell, the acrylics do not sell near what the real wood ones do. (The Berkshires btw)

Have a great day


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## robutacion (Dec 7, 2010)

Being involved for many years (long time ago, tough...!) as an apprentice (as a kid) with one of the old master craftsman and carvers and later on involved with old furniture restoration and, I learn many old "secrets" of wood finishes no longer in use, or at least rarely, one that did please the old master was when the "normal/common" sanding wood sealer did appear in the market, instead of all the crazy mixes we did to replace it, and he stated use it as a timber preparation for his oils finishes, gloss or not.

The sanding sealer was diluted with thinners at a rate of 60% sealer-40% thinners, depending of the brand, some have a very liquid consistency, there fore require less thinning.  The secret was to sand the wood to a final smooth finish then soaking the wood with this thin liquid preparation, normally brushing it.  When dry, the wood would then be rubbed with steel wool and then coated with any of the oils the wanted to, depending of the shine/lustre required.

Some sanding sealer's are quite glossy, this is undesirable if the wood requires to be matt or satin, the remedy was/is to add some talk (white baby talk type) powder into the sealer and stir well before application.  This works with any gloss products, be it paint or varnish, oil or water based, the more talk you add the less shiny the finish will be, still remaining all the product strength/durability.

Sanding sealer is in fact, one of the best products there is to protect the wood from stains, dirt and general use, if applied thin (to penetrate).  After that you can use any other product to finish the wood, without much problems with products reactions (not as far as I have experienced)..!

Good luck..!

Cheers
George


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## Wildman (Dec 8, 2010)

I like a lacquer finish on wood. JMHO, think lacquer not as brittle as CA or Urethane/Poly mix finishes. If you want a really quick finish, CA wins. 

You can apply lacquer with a brush, dip your pen blank, or spray lacquer on a pen blanks. Lacquer is pretty forgiving finish; do not need to go back to bare wood if problem comes up. I rub out the finish, never used a buffing wheel. 

As with any clear, finish use high gloss or gloss over semi gloss, or matte. Thin coats of lacquer better than heavy ones.  Temperature and humidity can and do affect outcome pay attention to manufacturers recommendation. Do not forget the four “TIMES.”  Dry time, Recoat time, Dry time for use, and Cure time.

Lacquer may not be the best finish for every piece of wood you use to make a pen.


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## galoot_loves_tools (Dec 8, 2010)

Monty said:


> I know the general consensus is that CA is _the_ best to finish a pen. However, for those that sell high end pens, ie. pens selling for $200 and more, what do you thing is the best finish for a high end pen?
> CA? Spray Lacquer? Lacquer dip? Something else?



I'm shifting over to dipping with Enduro water-based varnish.


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## ctubbs (Dec 9, 2010)

From my bodyshop time, lacquer has one and only one, bad flaw.  When the weather turns damp, the finish can, and will, sometimes turn white.  No warning, no explanation, and definitely not always, but often enough to be a problem.  It seems to happen most often when  the finish is very wet.  On  the other hand, if the finish is not wet enough, it stays rough an will never rub out to  good shine.  All this info is for spray applied finish and may not apply to dipped or brushed.  We did no dipping or brushing of the cars.  hehehe.  they were just too darn big and the pint cans way too small for dipping.  YMMV and probably will.  Now lacquer is a very durable finish and holds up to punishment well.  Just look at the cars with lacquer on them and what they go through daily.
Charles


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## PenMan1 (Dec 9, 2010)

If you want to sell it for $200 +,  you'd better be able to use the pen as a mirror for combing you hair (customers that buy these pens come with a 10X loupe...and have "heard about you")! 

The finish these people buy needs CA, and about 30 coats, at that! Just my opinion (and experience)! The only thing I have found that even closely approaches a CA finish is plexiglass.

If you are a cat owner, Plexi may be a viable alternative. Plexiglass requires you to "play with it"...spend a LOT of time...and even be a bit coy....and wait, and wait ...and wait!

I'm a dog owner (or sometimes I think, a dog "ownee"). CA is a lot like my mutt....I use a firm voice...and a lot of foul language... CA and "wing dog"  both eventually respond in an approaite way. Like my "wing dog", CA knows when it's done "bad business" and will respond to a strong leader, and provide measurable results on the next outing.

Respectfully submitted.....Sorta


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## JerrySambrook (Dec 9, 2010)

Sorry Andy, but I respectfully say hogwash.

Lacquer is as good a finish as CA and more flexible than CA. It is typically more forgiving in application, and has a variety of ways to be applied.
There are certain substances you cannot finish with lacquer, and then CA is a good alternative.

It seems to me that typically what occurs is the majority of people want a finish that is done in seconds, and that is that.
A well applied rubbed lacquer finish is way more flexible, more forgiving, easier to do easier to fix if need be and deeper than a ca.

I still cannot figure why we enjoy turning pens, or other things, but the finish must take no time to do (and this is probably the biggest reason most people use CA)

So once again Andy, sorry, but HOGWASH

p.s. I have had a pen go to auction for a good cause get bid on up to $2000.00.  finished with french polishing techniques (not friction polish) so that the finish looked deep, but not plastic, and did not obliterate the look of the wood when looked at straight on


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## Shock me (Dec 9, 2010)

*Spray lacquer?*

With regard to spraying lacquer, are most of you using spray cans? Or are we talking about more elaborate HVLP spray setups? Are you spraying while still rotating on the lathe? Any special precautions for the fumes?


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## randyrls (Dec 9, 2010)

ldb2000 said:


> I took the pen apart and refinished the top section with a CA finish . The CA finish doesn't feel like wood anymore but the golden chatoyance is back and you can see the eyes and figure of the wood again .




I create a wood look with two coats of CA spinning on the lathe with BLO.  They hit the blank with 0000 (4 ought) steel wool.  Still see the grain and pores, but has good protection.

YMMV


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## Wildman (Dec 10, 2010)

What is the better finish for wood pen blanks CA or Lacquer? 

Every clear finish we apply to wood comes with compromises or tradeoffs. There is no one finish better than the other for all occasions. 

I like brush on or spray can lacquer because know and understand how to apply and safety equipment required. I prefer look and feel of lacquer over CA. I limit my use of CA glue because of sensitivity to the stuff. 

When you get right down to it, both CA and lacquer contain chemicals not good for your body. Proper handling and safety equipment pretty much mitigates those problems. 

If want a plastic look and feel to a pen might consider using water based gloss acrylic urethane polyurethane mixture finish.  Use whatever brand you can find locally. Can always find either Miniwax Polycrylic or High Build Polyurethane in my area.  Have to drive 75 miles one way to find and Enduro clear finishes.  

When using clear finishes remember to stir not shake whether oil or water based. Also oil clear finishes need natural bristle brushes and water base use synthetic brushes.  Brush on with one stroke do not go over areas, wait till next coat for missed spots. Pour finish into a container to avoid contaminating finish in can. Also use a separate container if going to dip.


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## Sfolivier (Dec 11, 2010)

"I used Mylands on it and it looked wonderful ..... for about a week"

"I do a lot of pens with CA, but I honestly don't like the feel of it"

I'm 100% aligned with those statements. This is why I use Enduro finish. It somehow doesn't feel as plastic hard as CA but is as resistant over time (in my experience) and gives about the same gloss. The only things I found annoying are that even cured, it is still sensitive to alcohol and that it takes about 2 days to complete the finish (because of curing time, you don't work on it for 2 day non stop...).


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