# A Penmakers Challenge



## ldb2000 (May 3, 2010)

Are you ready to take your pen making to the next level . If you are then it seems that I have some extra time on my hands for a while , so it's time to play !!! 
This is not a contest , there will be no prizes other then the knowledge gained from the experience and the bragging rights that you did it . This one is just for the fun of it .
The way it is going to work is , I will build a pen and post it and you folks will have 2 weeks to figure out how I did it and make one for yourself (not sure about the time frame but 2 weeks should be enough time for the first few builds) at the end of the 2 weeks I will post how I made the challenge pen . 
I will start with just a simple modification to a basic pen (slimline or cigar will work and won't cost allot) then each successive pen will get more complex until the final pen which will be a Kitless design based on a slimline or cigar transmission (whichever you have an extra of) .
All of the pens and parts will be buildable using standard turning tools and a adjustable mandrel (a nonadjustable mandrel is NOT recommended for safety reasons) , a collet or 4 jaw chuck is recommended and is something that anyone who plans on ever going beyond being a kit penturner should have .

Safety will be the main requirement during this challenge . If you don't think you can safely complete a pen , then DON'T try . If something feels wrong to you then it is best that you either find a safer way or don't try it in the first place . NO injuries will be allowed during this challenge and if you somehow manage to hurt yourself you will not be allowed to continue the challenge . NO EXCEPTIONS !!!

This is open to everyone regardless of your experience . The idea is to advance your skills as a penmaker .

If your interested in joining in the fun then post your name here in this thread .


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## mbroberg (May 3, 2010)

Time is always my enemy (2 years to retirement:biggrin  But I'll give it a go.  sounds fun!


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## Sylvanite (May 3, 2010)

Oops, I thought I was replying in the right thread, but mistakenly accepted in the wrong place.  I'd still like to play though, and look forward to learning from it.

Thanks again,
Eric


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## dow (May 3, 2010)

I'll give it a go.  Thanks for the offer.


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## hewunch (May 3, 2010)

hmmm. I will try


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## ldb2000 (May 3, 2010)

The first few challenges will be just simple basic modifications to bring everyone up to speed before we try anything too complex . I will be explaining my techniques at the end of each stage of the challenge but if you have any questions don't hesitate to ask . It would be very helpful if everyone involved (including the more advanced people) complete each stage and posts a pen so that the others will have more ideas to work with .
Again , SAFETY is job one here . No one should attempt a technique that seems unsafe to them . If you are not sure if something can be done safely DON'T do it until you have asked questions and ensured that you can do it safely .


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## jimofsanston (May 3, 2010)

I am in. Sounds like a little learning curve here. No pain no gain as they say.


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## Brooks803 (May 3, 2010)

Count me in Butch. I'm looking to take a step forward.


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## rsmith (May 3, 2010)

Fantastic idea Butch, thanks:good:I'm in. Always ready to try to figure something out, thats the best way to learn:wink: Are you going to start a new thread for your first post, or should we keep our eyes on this one?


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## ldb2000 (May 3, 2010)

I agree about figuring it out . Tutorials really hurt learning not help it , figuring it out forces you to think about how something is done not just mimic what someone else has done .
Keep an eye on this thread . When there is enough interest I will post the first pen .


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## wolftat (May 3, 2010)

I'm in, but I want the no injury clause pulled from my end of the contract. My machines must feed!!!!!


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## ldb2000 (May 3, 2010)

wolftat said:


> I'm in, but I want the no injury clause pulled from my end of the contract. My machines must feed!!!!!


 
Don't worry Neil I will come up with a technique just for you that will ensure that you loose a finger or two .... Ok?:biggrin:


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## Dalecamino (May 3, 2010)

I found it !!! :biggrin::clown: Not off to a very good start :redface: but , still wanna play .:biggrin:


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## jbostian (May 3, 2010)

I am interested.  I just started a new job today, so I am not sure if I will have the time but I will give it a try.

Jamie


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## PenMan1 (May 3, 2010)

Sounds like fun, count me in.


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## holmqer (May 3, 2010)

Hopefully I will have time to get some of these done


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## Jim15 (May 3, 2010)

I don't have time right now to joinup but will be watching with great interest. Butch thanks for taking the time to do this.


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## seawolf (May 3, 2010)

I'm in. I've been known to try anything once.
Mark


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## KenBrasier (May 3, 2010)

Sounds like a fun challenge..... I'll give it a shot.


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## RAdams (May 3, 2010)

I am in!! Sounds like a good time! Thanks Butch for doing this!!


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## sptfr43 (May 3, 2010)

sure why not, I'm in


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## Papa mark (May 3, 2010)

I'm in, looking forward to learning more.


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## marter1229 (May 3, 2010)

What are we waiting for?
Lets go!:bananen_smilies008:


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## EBorraga (May 3, 2010)

Well Butch, I got tons of time. Don't know how far i'll get but i'll give it a try.


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## Mr Vic (May 3, 2010)

Hit us with your best shot Butch!


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## ldb2000 (May 3, 2010)

Just a reminder for the more advanced members . The first couple of builds are going to be just very basic modifications to a basic kit . There are a number of new turners that have never done anything but B2B slimlines and these people are going to need to get their feet wet before we can really get underway . Lets not have any complaints that this stuff is too easy , remember we all had to crawl before we could run . 
To the new people to this stuff , if you have any questions about how to do something , please post your questions here and either I or someone here will be happy to answer them . 
To those people who follow my techniques you will find I rely heavily on jam chucks to do allot of tasks from centerbands to closed end pens . The jam chucks will require the use of the tailstock to hold everything together tightly for major roughing cuts . Most of these techniques can be accomplished with a collet or scroll chuck far more easily so if you have one please feel free to use it but don't chastise anyone for not having one . Many of these things can be done a number of different ways .

There are also some must have tools like an adjustable mandrel and a good caliper or micrometer and a 60 degree live center . A dead center is not required but will make life easier and so will a collet or scroll chuck so if you can get those , do it , you won't be sorry you spent the money . You will also need a good parting tool for parting off pieces and forming tenons and cleaning up undercuts .


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## RAdams (May 3, 2010)

This is too easy.:biggrin: Can we get to the challenging stuff yet?:biggrin::biggrin:


Sorry... Couldn't resist!:biggrin: 

Sounds crazy fun to me!! With two weeks for each build, If you have time, and are one of the upper level peeps, then challenge yourself! For each round, do the same exact mod on two different pens, using two different techniques! Then when the rounds get into the more difficult stuff, go to just one per round. 

Or do the mandatory mod, and add something unexpected!! Push your own capabilities! I plan to attempt to suprise a few people during this little challenge!


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## razor524 (May 3, 2010)

I'll give it a try!


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## turbowagon (May 4, 2010)

I'll give it a try!  

- Joe


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## oops99 (May 4, 2010)

I'm in,


And I think this is a great idea. Not only for begginers, but for everyone.

Tom/oops99


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## jttheclockman (May 4, 2010)

ldb2000 said:


> I agree about figuring it out . Tutorials really hurt learning not help it , figuring it out forces you to think about how something is done not just mimic what someone else has done .
> Keep an eye on this thread . When there is enough interest I will post the first pen .


 

I do not agree with that statement at all but just an opinion.


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## ldb2000 (May 4, 2010)

Ron , don't get your dreds in a knot , we WILL get there , and yes by all means if you have an idea please feel free to add to the basic challenge . This is not a formal contest and all ideas will add to the knowledge base .
To everyone who's says "I'll try" as I tell my kids "Don't try ...Do" . Never set out with the thought that you might fail or you will . I have a LARGE box with all my failures but I learned something with each one . This challenge is all about doing and whether you succeed or fail you will learn something . 
Tom , you are right , everyone will learn something by the end . Beginners and experienced alike . 
John , sorry you feel that way . Anyone can follow a tutorial and build something but learn very little . If you figure it out for yourself you will learn how to think , so when you have a problem you will have the knowledge to to work it out yourself , not just ask for more help .


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## RAdams (May 4, 2010)

I was just teasing boss. Trying to be funny...:tongue:



And as you could guess by my signature, I agree with John about tuts. I think a well written tutorial will give you a jumping off point and the ideas needed to do something you normally wouldnt. Some people would not consider doing something new if they couldnt first read a tutorial on how someone else does it, or they may have thought that it was really difficult and the tutorial disproved that for them. I think tutorials are just an example of how the writer achieves a goal. I have learned alot about the capabilities of my machine, and myself by simply reading tutorials. 

I do agree that nobody should read a tutorial and rely on that as their only knowledge of the topic. Experience is key, And like my dad always told me, "Experience comes desguised as hard work". Put the theories to test. Use the tutorial to get the "juices flowing", and build on it from there!  


Just my two pennies.


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## jttheclockman (May 4, 2010)

ldb2000;1020731 
John  said:
			
		

> Butch
> 
> Everyone has to start somewhere and a tutorial is just that. Like a set of instructions. You build from there is the goal or should be the goal. Failure is not always the answer to success. At some time you need guidance. I am sure you did not get to where you are without a tutorial or 2 along the way. Kitless pens are just one facet of pen turning. As well as casting, segmenting, scrolling, laser work. Too broad of a statement for me. But like I said just an opinion. Have fun. :biggrin:


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## ldb2000 (May 4, 2010)

I'm not knocking tutorials but you really don't learn much by just following someones instructions on how to do something . As a starting point I guess they show that "something" can be done , that flap A goes into slot B , but if you have a problem they can't help you with fixing that problem . If you worked out how that "something" was done yourself you have the knowledge of why flap A goes into slot B which gives you the understanding to fix it if it don't work . Also if you ever want to try "something" different knowing that "something" can be done won't help you adapt the old "something" to the new "something" , you need to understand why the "something" was put together the way it was to adapt it .
My main problem with tutorials is that most people will be happy to just do what has already been done and won't bother to learn why it was done that way . They really won't advance their knowledge base , so in that way it hurts their understanding .
Sorry but most people are afraid to fail at something but you learn as much by your failures as you do from your successes , failure is not something to be afraid of but something to be examined and figured out so you can succeed next time .


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## jttheclockman (May 4, 2010)

ldb2000 said:


> I'm not knocking tutorials but you really don't learn much by just following someones instructions on how to do something . As a starting point I guess they show that "something" can be done , that flap A goes into slot B , but if you have a problem they can't help you with fixing that problem . If you worked out how that "something" was done yourself you have the knowledge of why flap A goes into slot B which gives you the understanding to fix it if it don't work . Also if you ever want to try "something" different knowing that "something" can be done won't help you adapt the old "something" to the new "something" , you need to understand why the "something" was put together the way it was to adapt it .
> My main problem with tutorials is that most people will be happy to just do what has already been done and won't bother to learn why it was done that way . They really won't advance their knowledge base , so in that way it hurts their understanding .
> Sorry but most people are afraid to fail at something but you learn as much by your failures as you do from your successes , failure is not something to be afraid of but something to be examined and figured out so you can succeed next time .


 



We are going to have to agree to disagree on this point. I think you are are not giving our pen turners enough credit. Not only pen turners but anyone who does something following a set of instructions or guidelines. You keep mentioning failures. The idea is not to have failures but these come weather you are following someone elses directions or building on your own ideas. Having fun in this hobby is what it is all about. People progress over time at their own pace. 

OK I am stepping away from this discussion because truely this is not the intent of your adventure and am sorry for disrupting the train of thought. It was not my intent, only that I sort of took on a crick in the neck:befuddled:  to the statement.  I go see the doctor now:doctor:


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## cnirenberg (May 4, 2010)

Butch,
I'm in, as time allows.


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## bgibb42 (May 4, 2010)

I'll play along....


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## Oldwagon (May 4, 2010)

I'll try.Todd


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## Craftdiggity (May 4, 2010)

ldb2000 said:


> I agree about figuring it out . Tutorials really hurt learning not help it , figuring it out forces you to think about how something is done not just mimic what someone else has done .
> Keep an eye on this thread . When there is enough interest I will post the first pen .




I am not a particularly great pen turner, but I'll participate and give it my best shot.

As for the above statement, I could not disagree more.  I have learned a great deal by following the details laid out by experienced turners.  I agree that there is no better teacher than experience, but come on...tutorials _hurt learning_?  Everyone learns differently and I for one appreciate everyone who takes the time to put their processes down on paper and share with the rest of us.  The few tutorials that I have done on another site have been met with great appreciation and based on the discussion that followed it, I believe that people learned from it, and from each other.  


Chris


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## Craftdiggity (May 4, 2010)

Sorry, I guess I should have read more of the thread before responding, but who cares if some people are following direction while others are figuring it out for themselves?  Why can't some people be satisfied with using instructions and being happy with that.  You obviously are a committed artist when it comes to your craft, but not everyone is.  Some people do this just for the fun of completing a project rather than innovating and coming up with their own processes.  I understand the desire to push talent to greatness, but it's not for everyone.  

I know what I know about turning from what I've read and what others have taught me.  I have never lived close enough to a club to have others help me one on one, so it has been tutorials and forums for me.  I have since developed my own processes for many things, but I have found that in some cases, a tutorial would have saved me a lot of time and money with just a couple of simple tips that I'd have never thought of. 

Chris



ldb2000 said:


> I'm not knocking tutorials but you really don't learn much by just following someones instructions on how to do something . As a starting point I guess they show that "something" can be done , that flap A goes into slot B , but if you have a problem they can't help you with fixing that problem . If you worked out how that "something" was done yourself you have the knowledge of why flap A goes into slot B which gives you the understanding to fix it if it don't work . Also if you ever want to try "something" different knowing that "something" can be done won't help you adapt the old "something" to the new "something" , you need to understand why the "something" was put together the way it was to adapt it .
> My main problem with tutorials is that most people will be happy to just do what has already been done and won't bother to learn why it was done that way . They really won't advance their knowledge base , so in that way it hurts their understanding .
> Sorry but most people are afraid to fail at something but you learn as much by your failures as you do from your successes , failure is not something to be afraid of but something to be examined and figured out so you can succeed next time .


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## Parson (May 4, 2010)

Sheesh! All this talk and no pen to re-create. Post the pic already!


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## DurocShark (May 4, 2010)

I'm in...


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## wolftat (May 4, 2010)

Whats a jam chuck?


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## leestoresund (May 4, 2010)

A jam chuck is a Charles who puts jelly om peanut butter.

I'm looking forward to this.

Lee


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## ldb2000 (May 4, 2010)

The purpose of this challenge is to advance everyones knowledge of penmaking , not to defend my beliefs about tutorials . I never said that anyone else had to hold my beliefs , I was just agreeing with another poster and was told I was wrong by someone who wasn't even joining in the challenge to begin with , so I was forced to defend my beliefs .
We all have different ways of doing things , just look at the CA finish , there are as many ways of doing it as there are turners , no one is the right way just a different way . 
A while back a member did a tutorial for the members and was harassed that his way was wrong to the point the he didn't want to do any more tutorials and another member was harassed for not wanting to do a tutorial on how to make a certain type of blank , he was more then willing to help anyone who asked for it . All he asked was that you made an effort . These are some of the problems I have with tutorials . 
This debate about tutorials has been around since long before I joined and will continue long after I'm gone . The debate within this challenge has ended . Anyone who is interested in continuing it should do so in PM's not pollute my thread that is trying to help others advance their skills through plain hard work , but I will warn you that I have been holding back so be prepared .


*Debate ended !!!*


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## rlofton (May 4, 2010)

Thanks for doing this, Butch.  Will be building a house but will play as much as I can.


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## ldb2000 (May 4, 2010)

Don't worry , there seems to be enough interest to get started so I will be posting the first part of the challenge soon . I just need to find my lathe so I can clean it off to take a few pictures of the first stage .


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## pssherman (May 4, 2010)

I want to play too. 
Hopefully SWMBO will give some breaks in the never ending list of honey-do projects.


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## mg_dreyer (May 4, 2010)

This sounds like a lot of fun and I look forward to the challenge(s). Thanks and I am in and ready to go.


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## David Keller (May 4, 2010)

Sounds like fun...  I'm in and interested.  As a current B2B guy, I think I'll enjoy the stretch outside my comfort zone.

Just a thought...  Will each entry/new modification be a separate thread?  I hope so because I can easily see this becoming a 50 page thread(or more) and a little cumbersome to review with subsequent additions.  It's already 5 pages, and I haven't seen a single pen.  Now on with the games...


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## Rfturner (May 4, 2010)

I am in as time allows


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## Scout52 (May 4, 2010)

Not very experienced at all, but would like to give it a try!


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## Lenny (May 4, 2010)

I will watch this thread with great interest.
Thanks for doing it Butch! 


Lenny



(Look forward to the tutorial at the end!)  :biggrin::biggrin::devil:


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## RIPPIN45 (May 5, 2010)

Butch;  Count me in,  I am always trying to do new things, thanks!


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## JohnDixon (May 5, 2010)

If B2B stands for bearing to bearing thats me!  I really look forward to stretching my abilities and learning new techniques.  Thanks for doing this.

John


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## RAdams (May 5, 2010)

JohnDixon said:


> If B2B stands for bearing to bearing thats me! I really look forward to stretching my abilities and learning new techniques. Thanks for doing this.
> 
> John


 


Close... I think it means "Bushing to bushing".


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## furini (May 5, 2010)

Well, not made a pen for nearly a year now so this could be the route back in!  Looking forward to the first pen.


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## skiprat (May 5, 2010)

Looks like you have a good following here Butch. Lookin' forward to seeing what you do.  Have fun and play safe.:biggrin:


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## TRRH (May 5, 2010)

Butch,
Great idea...should be fun....or at least funny....
Count me in for now...

cheers,
Terry New Brunswick, Canada


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## ldb2000 (May 5, 2010)

Sorry guys but I've been in agony with back problems all day and haven't been able to get into the shop . I turned and tubed the blanks for the first pen last night but I can't stand long enough to do anything with them . 
As soon as I can stand long enough to get something done I will get back to work and get the first pen for the challenge done and posted . Hopefuly in the next day or two . Please be patient . 
I have my laptop set up by my bed so if there are any questions feel free to ask them .


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## RAdams (May 5, 2010)

Take your time Butch. We got all the time we need for the challenge right? We will fire it up when you get to feeling better!


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## mbroberg (May 5, 2010)

I agree.  The, "Don't do anything stupid and hurt yourself" rule applies to you too.  We can all wait until you are able to stand without nagging back pain.


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## Craftdiggity (May 5, 2010)

Feel better, Butch.  Don't push it.  We'll be here when you get back to full strength.

Chris


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## JohnDixon (May 5, 2010)

RAdams said:


> Close... I think it means "Bushing to bushing".




LOL thats what I meant! I'm an idiot.


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## skiprat (May 6, 2010)

Trust you to be the first to go break the 'work safe' rule!!!  Jeeesh

Just kidding Butch.....hope you get well soon:wink:


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## DurocShark (May 6, 2010)

Take it easy, man. We ain't goin' anywhere.


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## Rick_G (May 6, 2010)

I'll be in and out Butch.  Sounds like fun and an opportunity to learn.  I'm in the middle of a kitchen rebuild right now and SWMBO for some reason thinks the kitchen should come before lathe time..


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## furini (May 6, 2010)

Sounds fun - i'm in, especially as I haven't made a pen for nearly a year!!  Sorry to hear about your back - hope it mends soon.


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## ldb2000 (May 6, 2010)

"Trust you to be the first to go break the 'work safe' rule!!! Jeeesh"

I've been dealing with this for a couple of years now . I broke one of the little bones that keep the spine aligned while crawling around under a dashboard at my job . I don't let it bother me very often but over did it last week and it's just catching up with me now . A couple of Percs and some time and I'll be back up again , in fact I spent a little time this morning turning the blanks to size and prepping the lower tube . If I get a chance tonight I'm gonna spend a little more time and finish the lower tube and start on the upper blank . Just taking it easy and not pushing it .


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## Brooks803 (May 6, 2010)

No rush Butch. I don't think any of us are going anywhere anytime soon. Take the time you need and we'll be ready when you are. Thanks again for doing this. I think it'll help alot of us to push through some mental (creative) blocks and start a outburst of great pens.


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## Papa Bear (May 6, 2010)

I'm in,as long as time will let me!


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## ldb2000 (May 7, 2010)

Ok , the first stage is about to begin . The pen is finished and I just have to get a picture and get it posted . I will be posting this challenge in several stages and creating a new thread for each stage . Be expecting the first stage to be posted in a couple of hours .
Good luck and think outside the box , soon we will be throwing the box away . As an idea of what I mean , this pen was made entirely on the lathe , no saws were used :wink:


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