# Carbide tool help!



## jxdubbs (Feb 6, 2018)

Hey guys. I have a couple Carter hybrid axe tools. The rougher and finisher. I'm going to but the set of the woodpecker ultra shear turning tools. I i was all set to get the pen set. Cone to find out that the tips on the woodpecker tips are that same size tips as the Carter axe hybrid tips, so not I'm not sure if I should get a size up and get the mid size W.P tools. Or if the W.P.  pen size would be better for what I'm doing. (Pens, sm. Bowls, drip tips, ear Gauges/plugs).  
I've been sitting on the fence with this for a few  Weeks. I've even asked the woodpecker company. The reply I got it's my preference. The only problem with that. Is I haven't used many sizes. The one thing I do know is that I want a set whether it's the pen or the midi size I don't know. But I know that I really like this brand. 
So if anyone of you guys that could help me with this simple answer. That I can't seem to answer on my own. This will help me hugely. Thanks a ton!
James

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## Lucky2 (Feb 7, 2018)

Hello James, if it was me getting them, I would get the larger size. By getting the larger size,you will have tools that will work on either size large or small. So you could turn pens with the larger size, and you could larger items with them also. Where if you just get the smaller size, your more apt to just use them on pens.
Len


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## jxdubbs (Feb 7, 2018)

Lucky2 said:


> Hello James, if it was me getting them, I would get the larger size. By getting the larger size,you will have tools that will work on either size large or small. So you could turn pens with the larger size, and you could larger items with them also. Where if you just get the smaller size, your more apt to just use them on pens.
> Len


Thanks for your thoughts.

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## JimB (Feb 7, 2018)

I'm a bit confused about why you need to buy anything. If you already have a set of tools with the same size cutter why do you need another set? 

I have a set of 'regular' size EWT carbide. I once had an opportunity to use a small set of another brand. I didn't like using the small tools at all.

I should point out, even though I have the carbide EWT I do 99.9% of my turning with HSS. In the past year I have used carbide only twice. Both times were to demonstrate them to other turners who had never tried them.


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## jxdubbs (Feb 7, 2018)

Hi Jim, I don't use hss tools all that much. I mostly make acrylic drip tips. There usually made on a metal lathe. I so it free hand but it has to be super precise. I've always used carbide, thats how I was learned how to do it. I've always have done it this way. That's also how I do my pens also. But I'm starting to so other things. So I wouldn't mine going  bigger.  I like the W.P. tools I wish I got them before. I need to buy a carbide detailer. They have two different detailing tips which usually Brands only have one. Also they have better tips than anything I've uses so far. Also they have a 45° shear angle for the shaft. (Takes the guessing out of things.) Jim I don't know if any of this helps or explains things. Thank you

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## jxdubbs (Feb 7, 2018)

jxdubbs said:


> Hi Jim, I don't use hss tools all that much. I mostly make acrylic drip tips. There usually made on a metal lathe. I so it free hand but it has to be super precise. I've always used carbide, thats how I was learned how to do it. I've always have done it this way. That's also how I do my pens also. But I'm starting to so other things. So I wouldn't mine going  bigger.  I like the W.P. tools I wish I got them before. I need to buy a carbide detailer. They have two different detailing tips which usually Brands only have one. Also they have better tips than anything I've uses so far. Also they have a 45° shear angle for the shaft. (Takes the guessing out of things.) Jim I don't know if any of this helps or explains things. Thank you
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


Ps. The reason I was thinking the pen size sometimes the tools to big to get were I want. 

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## monophoto (Feb 7, 2018)

I think you are asking for advice in choosing the size of the carbide cutter.  You appear to have already decided that you want a smaller size for the overall tool (ie, a shorter handle).

Back in the day when Captain Eddy did his regular Saturday afternoon live show, there was a discussion on this subject.  Eddy was promoting his cutters, but I think the basic principles apply to cutters from other suppliers.  His summary was that if everything else is the same, a smaller cutter will be more aggressive than a larger cutter.

I've noted that there are a number of commercial hollowing tools that use a tiny carbide cutter - which seems to reinforce the Captain's summary.

I have two sizes of round carbide cutters in my tool collection.  My experience is that the smaller round tool is very good for hollowing, while the larger round cutter seems better suited for finish smoothing.  Once again, smaller is more aggressive than larger.

That would lead me to suspect that if I were inclined to make a set of small carbide  tools for small work, I would probably expect to use a conventional rougher for turning to round, and then use the largest practical round cutter as a finishing tool.


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## Mr Vic (Feb 7, 2018)

My two cents!

It's not the size of the tool but how you use it. We had a chapter member, Steve DeYoung, who would turn goblets smaller then a AAA battery using a 1" skew. He has one of them on display in the Smithsonian. 

Practice, practice, practice. Grab an 8' 2x2 and cut in 1' lengths to practice on. Use one as a warm up before turning a pen.


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## jxdubbs (Feb 8, 2018)

Mr Vic said:


> My two cents!
> 
> It's not the size of the tool but how you use it. We had a chapter member, Steve DeYoung, who would turn goblets smaller then a AAA battery using a 1" skew. He has one of them on display in the Smithsonian.
> 
> Practice, practice, practice. Grab an 8' 2x2 and cut in 1' lengths to practice on. Use one as a warm up before turning a pen.


That's would be cool to see. 

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## jxdubbs (Feb 8, 2018)

monophoto said:


> I think you are asking for advice in choosing the size of the carbide cutter.  You appear to have already decided that you want a smaller size for the overall tool (ie, a shorter handle).
> 
> Back in the day when Captain Eddy did his regular Saturday afternoon live show, there was a discussion on this subject.  Eddy was promoting his cutters, but I think the basic principles apply to cutters from other suppliers.  His summary was that if everything else is the same, a smaller cutter will be more aggressive than a larger cutter.
> 
> ...


This helped slot thank you for you advice. I would have never know that with out asking or using the tool itself. Thanks man again!

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## Edward Cypher (Feb 8, 2018)

I have the medium size woodpecker and love it.  I also have the WP detailer cause I wanted a pointed cutter all the other ones have a radius on the end.  Just my two cents.  Love the 45 on the tool shaft.


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## jxdubbs (Feb 8, 2018)

Edward Cypher said:


> I have the medium size woodpecker and love it.  I also have the WP detailer cause I wanted a pointed cutter all the other ones have a radius on the end.  Just my two cents.  Love the 45 on the tool shaft.


Are the tips as advertised? They say there the sharpest yet that stays sharp. Do you think the mid size could do something this small? Short wider one is 12.5mm and the taller skinny ones are 8.5mm. I also like the dine point diamond tips and the 45° shafts.  Those are my favorite parts of the WP Tools. 






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## Pen Zen (Feb 8, 2018)

Edward Cypher said:


> I have the medium size woodpecker and love it.  I also have the WP detailer cause I wanted a pointed cutter all the other ones have a radius on the end.  Just my two cents.  Love the 45 on the tool shaft.



The 45 on the tool shaft is one of the best things about the Woodpecker tools and the reason I bought them.  But the pen size (small) WP tools DO NOT HAVE the 45 degree bevel on the tool shaft.  The shafts are like the Carter Axe tools.


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## Skie_M (Feb 12, 2018)

Some things that Capt Eddie touched on as well and things I have noticed myself when talking about tool size and usage ...


When working with a mini lathe, like what I own, having a really large handle is a BAD THING for trying to hollow a bowl or do end grain work on the face of a bowl, plate, or lid.  You have the handle of the tool held nearly parallel to the lathe ways, with the end of the handle hitting your tailstock.  Very impractical.  

On the other hand, I happen to have some wood-handled old-timer type flat tip screwdrivers with the square shanks that I bought for a buck apiece at a local pawn shop.  I used my 1x30 belt sander to grind away the screwdriver ends and then profile them into various detailing tips.  One for flattening, with a squared scraper edge, one for parting, with a very sharp thin knife edge.  One for profiling, with a curved rounded scraper edge.  And finally, one for chamfering and edging, with a 45 degree scraper edge.  The entire tool is only 5 inches long, including the handle length.  These let me get right into the bowl or box I am working on without having to remove my tailstock from the lathe.  They are also small enough I can work around my tailstock with them, while hollowing small things.


Small tools, though, have a significant drawback compared to large tools.  A small tool is much more prone to vibration and loss of control.  You will have considerably more chatter and a more uneven surface with the small tool unless you have it VERY firmly gripped, which can lead to hand and wrist fatigue while working.

Large tools, conversely, will generally give you a farm smoother cut, as they are much less prone to vibration and chatter, being that their mass keeps them from wanting to move, leaving the tool's edge in contact with your work and moving around far less.  You can use a much less firm grip, though you still have to keep it steady and let the tool do the work.  Also, with the longer tool handle, you have far more leverage control and precision control of exactly where the tip of your tool is going and how fast, while with a smaller tool, it's nowhere near as precise without a huge amount of experience and a large portion of your strength and attention.


In any case, the argument for tiny carbide cutters in machine tools are based on the fact that carbide materials for those bits can be pretty expensive, in some cases ridiculously so.  They still mate those tiny cutters up with some beefy and heavy tools that have a lot of mass or are fixed to something on the table or lathe bed, so as to reduce vibration to a minimum for a perfect cutting curve while hollowing your blank.


A smaller cutter CAN be more aggressive than a larger cutter, allowing you to push deeper per pass across the material than when using a larger cutting bit without stalling the work on the lathe.  This is because the smaller cutter is removing less material than the larger one, even when taking a "bigger" bite.  High speed turning/roughing is the key to how it works, in practice, though with even higher speeds than that the larger cutter would perform just as well.  

By the exact same token, when making finishing cuts .... a larger cutter will cut across more surface area, helping to even out the cuts and give you a better surface finish than the smaller cutter, which will tend to want to dig into it.




To summarize it all up:   Your tool's size of handle, weight, and cutting surfaces are all different aspects of the tools that you can change or pick from to determine the cutting performance and results you are after.

Carbide or HSS steel (or even mild tool steel, in my case of the screwdriver handles), all can be sharpened to some extent and used in different ways.

Your tool's handle can provide great leverage or excellent flexibility in use without getting in your way, depending on it's length.

Your tool's handle can provide the lightness you need to be able to maneuver it as you desire or the weight you need to provide you with a good quality cut surface.

Once you find the balance between these different aspects of your tools, you will finally start the process of mastering their use.


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