# Group Buy Guidelines



## Monty (Oct 16, 2008)

*[FONT=&quot]For Group Buy Organizers:[/FONT]*[FONT=&quot]

Although there is no requirement that you must have “X” number of posts or have been a member here for “X” months, it would be to your advantage that you have been a member here for at least 6 months and have made sufficient posts that other members “know” who you are and have a modicum of trust in you. [/FONT]*[FONT=&quot]If this is your first time to run Buy, consult with me before posting the Buy. [/FONT]**[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]*[FONT=&quot]
1- [/FONT]*[FONT=&quot]In keeping with the spirit of advertising in the classified sections,[/FONT]*[FONT=&quot]In order to run a group Buy*, *[/FONT]*[FONT=&quot]you MUST have your NAME, CITY, and STATE posted in your profile[/FONT]**[FONT=&quot]. [/FONT]*[FONT=&quot]If you do not trust us or the internet enough to do this, then why should we trust you with our money, names and address?

 [/FONT]
  [FONT=&quot]2 – [/FONT]*[FONT=&quot]Prior to starting[/FONT]*[FONT=&quot] a Buy, [/FONT]*[FONT=&quot]contact the company[/FONT]*[FONT=&quot] you will be buying from and ascertain that they have enough stock of the item/s you will be purchasing to fill the anticipated orders of the Buy. Confirm the discount you will receive and any other charges that will be added by the supplier (insurance, shipping etc.)

3 – Once you have completed item #1, [/FONT]*[FONT=&quot]compose your announcement post and PM it to me[/FONT]*[FONT=&quot] for approval before posting to the group. 
Include in it:
A - The item/s to be purchased, 
B - The anticipated discount and how many items are needed to make this discount, 
C - Spell out all costs associated with the buy such as shipping, insurance and PayPal fees 
Be sure to include a percentage to cover any out of pocket expenses you will have such as boxes, envelopes, mailing labels, printer ink etc. 
D - State what form of payment you will accept (Pay Pal only, checks, money orders)
E - Will you ship internationally? I believe that all of our international members realize
that the shipping and PayPal fees will be more, but please state how you will handle
this.
F - When will the Buy be closed to orders.
G - What will be done with any leftover funds.[/FONT]
*[FONT=&quot]Failure to do these first three items will result in your post being removed.[/FONT]*​  [FONT=&quot]


4 – [/FONT]*[FONT=&quot]Create a spreadsheet[/FONT]*[FONT=&quot]. After you have posted the information about the Buy and start taking orders, it helps greatly if you keep a spread sheet for all orders. This is not just my opinion, but from several others that have run successful Buys in the past. Things to include in the spreadsheet would be all products, user names, monies collected, etc. it is really handy when all your info is in one place and you can easily compute totals or count how many people you have. 

5 – [/FONT]*[FONT=&quot]Confirm receipt of the orders[/FONT]*[FONT=&quot], all items and payment with the person placing the order as soon as possible. This can be done as individual posts, email, PM or spreadsheet posted in the thread.

6 – [/FONT]*[FONT=&quot]Close the Buy promptly[/FONT]*[FONT=&quot] as stated. 

7 – Above all, *COMMUNICATE*[/FONT]*[FONT=&quot], COMMUNICATE, and COMMUNICATE[/FONT]*[FONT=&quot], any and all updates on the buy. This should eliminate any misunderstandings between you and your buyers.

8 - [/FONT]*[FONT=&quot]BE TRUSTWORTHY[/FONT]*[FONT=&quot]. This should be a given. The Group Buys only work as long as we can trust each other. Make sure the orders go out in a timely manner and communicate updates in the group buy post. 


[/FONT]*[FONT=&quot]For Group Buy Participants:[/FONT]*[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
1 – [/FONT]*[FONT=&quot]Post amounts in absolute quantities only[/FONT]*[FONT=&quot] “I’ll take 10 of XXX” – not “I’ll take about 10 of them”. 

2 – [/FONT]*[FONT=&quot]Pay promptly[/FONT]*[FONT=&quot]. If paying through Pay Pal, do so ASAP. If paying by check or money order, get it in the mail within a reasonable amount of time before the close of the buy. Remember it may take a week for your check to clear the bank. If others are like me, I could probably cover one or two late pays, but if there were numerous late pays, it could delay the Buy.

3 – [/FONT]*[FONT=&quot]Get confirmation of the correct payment[/FONT]*[FONT=&quot] before paying by Pay Pal. Every additional payment costs an additional $0.30 that would not be charged if it were all in one payment.

4 – [/FONT]*[FONT=&quot]Be sure the organizer has your name, screen name, email, name on the PayPal account, and snail mail address[/FONT]*[FONT=&quot] and business name if you are having your order sent to your business. Nothing is more frustrating that trying to match a screen name with a real name and address and business name and PayPal account and hoping you got it correct.

5 – [/FONT]*[FONT=&quot]Check your PM’s and emails frequently. Monitor the thread for updates[/FONT]**[FONT=&quot]. [/FONT]*[FONT=&quot]There may be important messages about your order.

6 – If you have a question,[/FONT]*[FONT=&quot]Direct questions about the Buy directly with the organizer [/FONT]*[FONT=&quot]after rereading the initial post. That will usually answer 90% of all questions. [/FONT]*[FONT=&quot]NEVER[/FONT]*[FONT=&quot] contact the company that the Buy is coming from. This wastes their time and could result in them not accepting any more Buys from us. 

7 – Be aware that these [/FONT]*[FONT=&quot]Buys can take time[/FONT]*[FONT=&quot]. If you need your order by a certain deadline, consider placing your order direct with the supplier and pay full price. 

8 – Although not required, it is a good idea to let the organizer know that you have received the items in good condition either by post or PM.[/FONT]


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## Russianwolf (Oct 17, 2008)

might want to come up with a standardized version of the paypal mark-up and flat rate shipping. People running them don't try to make a profit, but we don't want them footing too much expense either.


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## Daniel (Oct 17, 2008)

Mike, "standardized" might be a bit hard to nail down. At least for pay pal charges. first the charge depends on what type of account the person has. For me it also depends on where I am getting the product from. In the case of Rizheng group buys I get charged 3% plus the 31 cents to collect the payment, then I pay 4% when I pay Rizheng, as well as another transaction fee. Flat rate fees are easier but may look different depending on how a person groups various charges. in my case I group the 31 cent pay pal fee with the postage and then add the 3% to that, charging something like $5.25  but simply list it as Postage. Keep in mind that a person that prints there postage from pay pal get a discount while those that pay at the post office do not. I can also print postage on printer paper for a couple of cents but some may use printer labels that are not nearly as low cost.


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## maxwell_smart007 (Oct 17, 2008)

It might be easier and more consistent then, Daniel, to simply itemize the charges for each buy, so people know what the charges are and why they're there...

Andrew


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## Russianwolf (Oct 17, 2008)

Daniel, why do you have to pay 4% + transaction fee when you pay Rhizeng? That shouldn't have anything to do with paypal.


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## maxwell_smart007 (Oct 17, 2008)

Russianwolf said:


> Daniel, why do you have to pay 4% + transaction fee when you pay Rhizeng? That shouldn't have anything to do with paypal.



I think they have a wire-transfer fee, don't they? Or perhaps it's from Daniel's bank...

Andrew


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## ed4copies (Oct 17, 2008)

Standard operating procedure for currency conversion on overseas transactions.

Every credit card company, every bank, just EVERYONE has a fee.  Can range from 1% (IF you shop your credit cards) to 10% (If you use the local loan shark).

Just had a "debate" with my suppliers about the international exchange rate on my last order - seems their bank "buried" a fee in the exchange rate (which changes every second, actually).


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## kent4Him (Oct 17, 2008)

Russianwolf said:


> ... but we don't want them footing too much expense either.


 
I guess some is okay.:biggrin:

Just kidding.  

The $0.31 + 3% works real well for domestic paypal users.  That formula gives what is charged within a penny or two at the most.  The last group buy I ran with 43 people, 39 used Paypal and I ended up collecting $0.14 extra total on Paypal charges.


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## Monty (Oct 17, 2008)

One point I've been dwelling on and haven't come up with a solution yet is - Should a person have "X" number of posts and be a member here for so long before running a Buy?
I thinking along this line in order that one establishes some sort of credibility.
Your thoughts and input would be appreciated.


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## ed4copies (Oct 17, 2008)

Monty,

If Warren Buffet stops by and would like to conduct a group purchase, I think we ought to let him do that.  NOW, he needs to TELL us who he is. or we won't KNOW it's Warren!!!

Since MOST of us are not world-renowned for our financial prowess and since a good deal of money is sent to the "group purchaser" and since "Paypal" has not been getting sterling reviews for their corporate follow-up, seems we SHOULD adopt some type of standard.

So, YES, I think there should be a standard to assure Jeff that the purchaser is reliable.

NO, I do NOT know what that standard should be.

Helpful, huh???????


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## ed4copies (Oct 17, 2008)

Maybe PayPal is a starting point.

They rate their "participants".  While I am not familiar with those ratings -someone who is, could chime in with some ideas?????


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## Russianwolf (Oct 17, 2008)

ed4copies said:


> Monty,
> 
> If Warren Buffet stops by and would like to conduct a group purchase, I think we ought to let him do that.  NOW, he needs to TELL us who he is. or we won't KNOW it's Warren!!!
> 
> ...


Clear as mud Ed. :biggrin:


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## Russianwolf (Oct 17, 2008)

Yes, I think group buys should be run by someone who has some standing on the board. But at the same time, if someone running one has a high post count and long tenure but I'm not familiar with them (maybe they took a long hiatus from the board from some reason) I may decide not to participate. So coming up with criteria may not be as easy as saying "6 months, and 200 posts". But we have to start somewhere I suppose.

On the exchange rates. yep, they are commodities just like stocks and gold. They fluctuate in value, sometimes incredibly (Should of seen me shuffling funds when I was in control of an office in Moscow in the late 90's). But once you agree on a price with a vendor (I think Rhizeng even quotes USD amounts as it's NORMALLY one of the more stable currencies), then their is usually only a wire fee of about $20. I know that's all I pay to our bank to wire fund to SE Asia and I do that at least twice a month. Now some receiving banks will take out a fee on their end too, but the vendor should be including that in the quoted amount. The 4% sounds like the fee that Amex charges it's vendors, and vendors are usually under contract to not pass that back to the user.So they can't say "your order is $1000, but since you're paying by Amex it's $1040". If they do, they can be fined or dropped by Amex (or Visa/MC).


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## Daniel (Oct 17, 2008)

In the case of Rizheng the 4% is because I pay them with Pay Pal. and the fee to a foreign country is higher. I am paying the company for drill bits through Western Union which for large amounts of money is a much better deal. $18.00 to send $2000 rather than pay pals $60. But small amounts are much more expensive. I paid $15.00 to send $60 by western Union. 

As for Mannies question. I think there should definitly be some sort of qualification to run a group buy. min time as a member as well as having shown some involvment. since involvment can take many forms a specific list may not be possible. In a nut shell there is a since of when someone is "a part" of the group and has established a reputation. I'm thinking along the lines of six months with a track record of letting themselves be known to the group.


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## flyingmelon (Oct 17, 2008)

I think that participating in a group buy is a gamble no matter whom is running it or how long or how many posts they have. Right now I have about $65.00 out on one that I won't see product on for a couple of weeks. I posted for another that has probably the same lead time. I look forward to getting my product but I am trusting the buyers not to take my money and run. Do I trust one more then another? No. One has posted more group buys that I have seen than the other, but I do not trust the other any less. I guess that I see this as a community that if the person running it screws over the participants that they are going to screw themselves in the long run. 
     If I saw someone come in and post a group buy and that was their first post and I participated then I am taking the risk. But there is also a risk for buying from someone after their 1000th post. In these financially unstable times it is our own responsabillity on where we invest our money. I choose to invent it in kits that I can build and hopfully make more then I spend on my hobby. So far I am a little behind. But it is my choice that I participate. I don't think that there should be a limiting action on putting one together. I feel that it is participant-beware and hopefully I get my product for the output of capitol. 
     I also feel that as the leader of the group buy that if they make a little something off of it weather it be a kit, or a bit set, or even the little bit extra money that that is up to them as long as it is stated up front. If the people do not want to support the organizer then they can choose not to participate.
     I know that I am not able to purchase enough kits at one time to benefit from the bulk purchase price. But if I trust someone with my money to take part of a group buy to get that price then that is my choice. I do not see the need to restrict who heads a buy. I think that the members of this community will gravitate to those that are reliable and stay away from someone that isn't.

Just my long and rambling opinion. Summed up by this. If someone wants to run one-more power to them. If someone wants to participate in one-more power to them. If someone wants to tell me whom I can spend my money with-well shame on them.


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## ed4copies (Oct 17, 2008)

Russ,

If everybody felt that way, there would be no need for "rules".

Unfortunately, SOME will blame Jeff if ANYTHING goes wrong.  Legally, I believe he is on firm ground, but who wants to get there from here.

So, he has asked Monty to try to establish "rules" that will make fraud LESS LIKELY.

I am with YOU, let the buyer beware.  But I DO feel safer when the member who is leading the group buy has been around a while, participated in a few threads and I feel I 'know" him better.

But then, I saw and respected a football player turned NFL announcer whom I later realized I SURE DIDN'T KNOW!!! (OJ)  So, we live and learn.

Monty has been asked to TRY to limit our vulnerability.  It would be GREAT if we could all try to help.  It IS for the "good of the community".

(Picks up soapbox and walks away humming "Its a small world")


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## flyingmelon (Oct 17, 2008)

True about the blame but I hope not too many people do that or he might pick up his site and go home.

As far as fraud goes if someone were to do that there would be hell to pay because you are breaking federal law by accepting payments over the net (I think this is true).

As far as setting rules and trying to protect people-I guess I am of the belief that in the end you are judged and no one gets away from him. 


----------------
Now playing: Israel Kamakawiwo'ole - Somewhere Over The Rainbow &
via FoxyTunes


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## MesquiteMan (Oct 18, 2008)

At a minimum GB organizers should have to have their real name and location listed in their profile, just like sellers in the rest of the classifieds.  Then I think they should have to be a member here for at least 6 months and have participated regularily.  How to quantify "regularily" is the question.


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## Darley (Oct 18, 2008)

IMHO, GB should be handled by a well know person and who as made at least one GB, the guide line should include if the person is ready to ship over sea or not ( it's a shame when it can't be shipped over sea but did happen ), the GBO ( GROUP BUYER ORGANISATOR :biggrin: ) should produce a full items listing of the GB ( one GB is on now and no listing is listed  ) with all relevant fee(s) and charge including shipping to US continents and over sea .

So far I have been happy with all my orders through GB, if some one want to do a GB  for the first time he MAY do it under supervision of a COACH ( persone who as been doing several GB )


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## Monty (Oct 18, 2008)

Darley said:


> the guide line should include if the person is ready to ship over sea or not ( it's a shame when it can't be shipped over sea but did happen ), the GBO ( GROUP BUYER ORGANISATOR :biggrin: ) should produce a full items listing of the GB ( one GB is on now and no listing is listed  ) with all relevant fee(s) and charge including shipping to US continents and over sea .


This is being addressed and should be posted within the week.



Darley said:


> So far I have been happy with all my orders through GB, if some one want to do a GB  for the first time he MAY do it under supervision of a COACH ( persone who as been doing several GB )


Good idea.


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## maxwell_smart007 (Oct 18, 2008)

If the biggest concern about a group buy is the idea of someone running off with a bunch of money, is it a feasible idea to create an IAP paypal account?  That way, each person would deposit the money into an IAP account, and the GBC (Group Buy Coordinator, i.e. Monty), would transfer that money over to the company directly when the GB is complete?  This would eliminate the different 'paypal fees' that each buy would charge, as it would be standardized....

That would require a very good rapport with the companies...perhaps a company liason would be required!  (The IAP Cabinet portfolio is getting quite packed, isn't it?)  

I'm just thinking out loud...perhaps I'm overthinking this....personally, there are quite a few people on here that I would trust sending money to - but I'd become leery about a group buy if very little info was posted about it, or if there was an 'unknown' running it...having established members running the GB should reduce much of the risk.


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## JustInside (Oct 18, 2008)

My two cents on the rules that need to be put in place.

A concern about having people needing a certain number of posts is that it is very easy to inflate that number, so that won't work.
Second making the person who is organizing the buy post all the pen numbers is not a great idea, unless they want to limit to certain pens, but if they are willing to do it for all the pens, then it should be up to the person wanting the pens to look for the correct part numbers. Why try and make more work for the person the is organizing the buy, they are already devoting a lot of free time to it already, it seems like they are being punished for what they are doing.

Paul


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## Texatdurango (Oct 18, 2008)

Since everyone else is voicing their opinions, here is mine…. This is ridiculous! 

This whole thread and the other that Paul tried to start just turned me off from doing any future group buys!

Geeze.... Instead of trying to find some common ground, make some rules and move forward, for three days all I see is everyone micro analyzing every tiny aspect of a group buy. And what is the biggest topic so far … how do we trust each other or who do we trust?  One post debates the merits of a previous post and spawns another debate which starts more debate which starts more discussion and on and on with no real progress.  *This is bureaucracy at its worst!*

Hell, I have been participating in group buys with total strangers for a year and a half now and NEVER had a problem and NEVER heard of anyone else having a problem either. What next, a credit application, checking ones credit score, background check, photos of themselves and nearest living relatives before allowing someone to host a buy! This whole thing is getting out of control as far as I am concerned. Did something happen recently that I am not aware of that is causing all of this micro-scrutiny and mistrust?

I did several group buys, most in the thousands of dollars, the highest being over $5,000, all without incident except for one missing pen kit that I almost threw out with the trash.

The notion of making the VOLUNTEER go to the trouble and list every pen a vendor carries just to do a buy on kits is crazy! If I list three pages of kit numbers with prices, odds are the participant is going to visit the catalog or web site anyway to SEE what they want, so why not just have THEM jot down what they want and post it, tally up the posts and when the goal is reached....place the order?

Ya’ll are making this WAY too complicated! Christmas is right around the corner, members want to do a group buy and here everyone is mired down debating the true definition of fraud and the inner workings of paypal, Good Grief!


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## wdcav1952 (Oct 18, 2008)

Don't sugar coat it George.  Tell us how you really feel!!!!  :biggrin:

Mannie, set it up how you think best, given your experience with group buys.  If someone doesn't like how group buys are run, they are not required to participate.


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## Texatdurango (Oct 18, 2008)

wdcav1952 said:


> Don't sugar coat it George. Tell us how you really feel!!!! :biggrin:


Nah..... I'd just get in trouble! 

Seriously though, I agree that Manny has the experience of setting out some guidelines and getting on with it rather than EVERYONE adding two pennies at a time and beating this to death in committee... oops, there I go again!


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## markgum (Oct 18, 2008)

I truly like the idea of a 'coach' to help newer members learn how to run a group buy.  I haven't been a member that long; and may have some free time to run a GB.  However, since I've never ran one before I only have the thoughts of how I have seen ones run in the past, and I have bought plenty.  Otherwise, Mannie has done wonderful group buys and I'm sure he can set up some guidlines.


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## maxwell_smart007 (Oct 18, 2008)

Texatdurango said:


> Nah..... I'd just get in trouble!
> 
> Seriously though, I agree that Manny has the experience of setting out some guidelines and getting on with it rather than EVERYONE adding two pennies at a time and beating this to death in committee... oops, there I go again!



Good points!  Let's leave this to Monty, and chime in IF he asks for help!  

Andrew


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## Monty (Oct 19, 2008)

I would like top thank everyone for their input. I'll try to get the last few changes to the guidelines made today and sent to Jeff for his approval before they become final.


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