# poison ivy?



## snowman (Feb 11, 2009)

has anybody made a pen out of poison ivy? I had a tree taken out and it had the biggest poison ivy vine growing on it I have ever seen. I cut some off to dry and try.


----------



## Lulanrt (Feb 11, 2009)

I have, neat stuff. I let it dry for a year before turning it. They say the oils leave it after it dries not sure how that works but I did not get a rash. But come to think of it I cut poison ivy with a weed eater and never break out. But it can be turned I will try to post the pic of the pen I turned when I get home out of town right now. 
Travis


----------



## TellicoTurning (Feb 11, 2009)

Lulanrt said:


> I have, neat stuff. I let it dry for a year before turning it. They say the oils leave it after it dries not sure how that works but I did not get a rash. But come to think of it I cut poison ivy with a weed eater and never break out. But it can be turned I will try to post the pic of the pen I turned when I get home out of town right now.
> Travis



I don't get near that stuff if I can help it... if you're not allergic to it, you are one of the 5% or 10% lucky ones who aren't.... I can look at that stuff and break out.
And don't be too sure about the oils leaving, I have read that if you get the oils on tools, or your clothes, you can still break out as much as a year later... can't confirm that but the first couple of years I had this place, I seemed to have been broken out with PI every few weeks:frown::frown:.  Think I've gotten most of it killed off now.


----------



## Dario (Feb 11, 2009)

There are lots of safer wood (and probably prettier) that I haven't tried yet...so I am on the "not me" group.  :biggrin:


----------



## Randy_ (Feb 11, 2009)

Yeah, it's been done.  There was even an article in one of the pen magazines about doing it within the last year or two.  As far as I know the "oils" remain active long after the plant is dead.  Maybe the "oils" are only found on the leaves and not on the stem.......I don't know??  Imagine turning a pen, breathing some of the dust and getting a reaction in your lungs.  Don't think I would want to take that risk unless I was very sure it was safe.​
 
And I'm not sure I see the point, anyway.  As I recall, in the pictures I saw, the wood was very plain.​


----------



## GouletPens (Feb 11, 2009)

It may seem like a novelty, but I can't imagine being able to market a poison ivy pen very well to my customers.....


----------



## Lulanrt (Feb 11, 2009)

It is for that not so special person.
Travis


----------



## sparhawk (Feb 12, 2009)

I,m not allergic but my ex-wife 25 years ago was. When she pissed me off i would roll in the stuff and when she washed my clothes she would break out. She was also allergic to seafood, so every chance i got i would make shrimp gumbo. She,d swell up like a dead dog in the sun on a summers day. Oh those were the days.


----------



## DurocShark (Feb 12, 2009)

sparhawk said:


> I,m not allergic but my ex-wife 25 years ago was. When she pissed me off i would roll in the stuff and when she washed my clothes she would break out. She was also allergic to seafood, so every chance i got i would make shrimp gumbo. She,d swell up like a dead dog in the sun on a summers day. Oh those were the days.




*DurocShark makes a note not to marry sparhawk


----------



## george (Feb 12, 2009)

This would make a great christmas present for my mother in law. Only 10 months till December.


----------



## alphageek (Feb 12, 2009)

It has been done... I saw an article on it - I think it was in woodturning design.


----------



## Sylvanite (Feb 12, 2009)

I saw the "Pens that Bite" article as well, and thought it was incredibly irresponsible.  It's like telling children how to make napalm - sooner or later, it's going to blow up in someones face.

Even if you're not allergic to poison ivy, many other people are.  Figures I've seen are that it's the most common allergy in the world, affecting about half the population.  Why spread it around intentionally?  Even if you are very careful, the dust will hang around your shop.  Do you want the neighbor kid to walk into your garage and get a handful (or worse, a lungful)?

It takes very little oil to trigger a reaction, and it can be life threatening.  I've known two people who wound up hospitalized - one from breathing smoke, and one who got some sap on himself.  Yes, the sap contains the oil.  The concentration is even higher than on the leaves.

Regards,
Eric


----------



## bobskio2003 (Feb 12, 2009)

I have made a number of Poison Ivy pens and with care they are no problem.  The oil does last a long time but it is not in the wood itself.  It is in the leaves, the bark and the sap layer under the bark.  What I've done is cut the vine into about 2' lengths and then let it dry for a year or so.  Then with gloves and mask on I shave the bark layers off.  I then cut it up, on a bandsaw, into blank size (making sure that there isn't any of the other wood left - that might have oil on it).  From there, using the usual precautions (dusk mask, dust collector) I can turn the pen.  By the time you put a finish on it the chance of even actually touching the wood is slim and even if you did it isn't likely to have any oils on it.  Bob I.


----------



## sbell111 (Feb 12, 2009)

I also read the article and even considered turning a PI pen.  I do think that it could be done relatively safely.  I would recommend making sure the wood was good and dry and giving the blank a DNA bath.  In fact, I would likely go with a couple DNA baths as the blank was turned down to ensure that as much of the oils were removed as possible.  I would seal the turned blank in CA to ensure that no one had any issues when handling the pen.

Certainly, it would be important to have a good dust collection and handling system in operation when turning this material, even if you are one of the fortunate few of us who are not alergic to PI.  

I would further make sure that all equipment used in the process is wiped down with DNA afterwards (and perhaps Tecnu).  I would also quickly replace the collection bag on the dust collector so there is no future issues with the dust

I never got around to making PI pens because I don't think that they would be strong sellers and the extra work related to them simply isn't worth it.


----------



## fyrcaptn (Feb 12, 2009)

*poison ivy*

I put this in the one for the ex category as well...        nah not worth the trouble. 
I understand that it is not indigenous to the US and was brought here as an ornamental.

Thankfully I am not allergic. LOML and my son are pitifully allergic. My mother was hospitalized with it in her lungs after burning a brush pile. They all can look at it and break out. Isn't worth it to me to risk exposing them to it. If you did hit oils how could you be sure to get it off the lathe, tools, etc. Guess with the other choices available I'll pass. 
That said, if any of you want some feel free to come harvest all you want!


----------



## TellicoTurning (Feb 12, 2009)

You guys can mess with that stuff all you want... I think I can break out from just looking at the pictures... it takes less than an hour for me to react to touching any part of the plant.

As a youngster, I climbed a three once while not wearing a shirt and wound up with poison ivy so bad on my chest and stomach, I probably should have gone to a doctor - but for common ailments like that we didn't do doctors in those days.. (late '40's and early '50's).  My mom used old wives remedies and I finally got over it, but that was a terrible time for me... when I break out I get oozy blisters.. ugly looking stuff.


----------



## Dario (Feb 12, 2009)

fyrcaptn said:


> That said, if any of you want some feel free to come harvest all you want!



ROFLMAO.  

I think there are thousands of people in Austin alone who would give the same statement.  Just experiment and post "Will harvest Poison Ivy for FREE" at Craigslist and you will probably get a lot of responses. :biggrin: 

I know a few city parks and facilities (thousands of acres) that will offer free access for that (or maybe not in fear of liability)


----------



## pipecrafter (Feb 12, 2009)

20-something years ago my entire family was laid up for weeks because we were clearing land and chipping all the saplings.  Wouldn't you know it, there was some huge poison ivy vines that we chipped up - vines that had been dead and dry for years (I know they were dead because I killed them about 3 years prior).  All they did was breath some of the dust coming off the chipper, and they were done in for half the month of July.

Me, I'm one of the lucky ones that isn't allergic to poison ivy, so I got to take care of everyone and truck them all back and forth to the doctor for those two weeks.

No, it's not worth it.  Don't make a pen from it, and for God's sake don't turn it into chips or dust.  Even if you're not allergic to it, you can bet that a lot of people around you are.


----------



## GouletPens (Feb 12, 2009)

I can't think of a better segway to talk about other woods that have the oils silimar to poison ivy. There are many exotic woods, especially in the Dalbergia family (rosewoods) that have the same oils as poison ivy and can cause the same reaction. A year ago i did a large order of Brazilian Tulipwood, no DC, no fans, just straight up. The end of the first day, I had aweful poison ivy all over my forearms from the dust. I did some research and found out tulipwood is a sensitizer, which means it's not only highly toxic but also affects you worse the more you're exposed to it. I later got an ambient air cleaner and hooked up a DC dust hood at the lathe and haven't had a problem since. :doctor:

Many woods like tulipwood, ebony, zircote, kingwood, cocobolo, lignum vitae and many, many others are highly toxic and should be turned with extreme care. Basically, all the 'tropical' woods (more or less) are toxic, as a defense mechanism for the tree (if they hurt you, you won't mess with them, or so they think, heh heh.).


----------



## Dario (Feb 12, 2009)

Last this topic came out...LIABILITY was also mentioned.

What will happen to you as the seller if the recipient (or anyone who got in contact with the pen) got sick?

Is it worth the risk?

For me, it is not.


----------



## GouletPens (Feb 12, 2009)

Does anyone have a picture one of these finished PI pens? I'm curious to see what it even looks like....


----------



## PaulDoug (Feb 12, 2009)

I'd like to see a picture.  I just can't imagine it being pretty enough to be worth the trouble.


----------



## THarvey (Feb 12, 2009)

alphageek said:


> It has been done... I saw an article on it - I think it was in woodturning design.



Fall 2007 Issue

Pens With A Bite - John A. Styer 


I have thought about turning some.  I am not allergic to the stuff, but my wife and kids can look at a picture and break out.


----------



## TellicoTurning (Feb 12, 2009)

THarvey;806088 but my wife and kids [COLOR=Black said:
			
		

> can look at a picture and break out.[/COLOR]



Hey!! That's my line.  :biggrin::biggrin:


----------



## Sylvanite (Feb 12, 2009)

GouletPens said:


> There are many exotic woods, especially in the Dalbergia family (rosewoods) that have the same oils as poison ivy and can cause the same reaction.



Yes and no.  Many other woods are allergens, and some are sensitizers as well.  Cocobolo is probably the best known of these.  Skin contact with the dust can cause a similar rash, but the specific allergen is different.  The rosewoods do not have the same oil as poison ivy, poison oak, or poison sumac.

Regards,
Eric


----------



## GouletPens (Feb 12, 2009)

Sylvanite said:


> Yes and no. Many other woods are allergens, and some are sensitizers as well. Cocobolo is probably the best known of these. Skin contact with the dust can cause a similar rash, but the specific allergen is different. The rosewoods do not have the same oil as poison ivy, poison oak, or poison sumac.
> 
> Regards,
> Eric


 Right....I didn't mean to imply that all the toxic woods have the oil like poison ivy....I only know that brazilian tulipwood does. The others are all toxic in their own way.


----------



## Sylvanite (Feb 12, 2009)

It is said that there are two kinds of woodworkers:  those who are allergic to cocobolo, and those who will be.  Of all the Dalbergia family, it may contain the most allergens, including several quinones and phenols.  Tulipwood contains a quinone (a dalbergione) which causes allergic dermatitis.  Urushiol (containing catechol) is present in Poison Ivy.  Different chemicals, different allergies, same symptoms.

Although I am allergic to Poison Ivy, I'm not sensitive to the rosewoods (knock on wood) - at least not yet.  I've happily turned Cocobolo, Brazilian Tulipwood, Kingwood, Bocote, and African Blackwood without breaking out.

We don't usually think about it, but other popular woods, including sugar maple, birch, and pine can also cause reactions in some people.

For more detailed information, check out: http://wiki.bmezine.com/index.php/Wood_Hazards.

Regards,
Eric


----------



## wdcav1952 (Feb 12, 2009)

As has been noted, there are countless materials from which to make blanks.  From my perspective, making poison ivy pens is simply reckless and foolish.  Also as mentioned, while it might not hurt you, the potential problems for others must be considered.


----------



## Joe L (Feb 13, 2009)

Hi... My brother (years ago), ended up in the hospital as a reaction to poison ivy.  Although I got the traditional "rash and itch"... that's all.  I mention this because we both must have touched it when it was "oily"...  so I don't know how a "ivy-sensitive" person might react with dry wood.

You might want to caution the potential buyer(s) regarding the type of wood they are buying.  (To "george".... your thoughts project that it could be a HUGE market<grin>)

-joe L


----------



## wolftat (Feb 13, 2009)

GouletPens said:


> It may seem like a novelty, but I can't imagine being able to market a poison ivy pen very well to my customers.....


 I don't know about that, there are a lot of people that have ex's out there.....LOL


----------



## workinforwood (Feb 13, 2009)

I have never had an allergy to poison ivy either, and have been in plenty of contact with it being that i live in a wetland.  Fact is though, you can touch it a million times and never have a reaction, but next time you might.  Allergies can change.  I especially wouldn't risk breathing it in even though I am one of the lucky ones.


----------



## GouletPens (Feb 13, 2009)

Even though you might not have an allergen to touching poison ivy, the exposure is mangified by thousands whenever you're working with something in dust form as opposed to just touching something. Therefore, just because a particular wood like cocobolo or tulipwood is a working hazard to manufacturers like us, doesn't mean that the end product is hazardous to our customers to any notable level. When I had my breakout from tulipwood, it wasn't the first time I'd worked with the wood, but because I had the fine dust sitting on my arms for 8+ hours in one spell, my exposure was unbelievably high. The worst exposure is when sanding, because of the fine particles.


----------



## chriselle (Feb 14, 2009)

I've said it before and I'll say it again.....URUSHI....and man do I have some personal stories and old Japanese lore about the stuff.


----------



## arjudy (Feb 15, 2009)

Here is how poison ivy works on the body:

Urushiol is the group of compounds present in poison ivy that initiate the allergic reaction. It is found in all parts of the plant including the woody parts and berries. Urushiol is a mixture of catechol derivatives. The major catechol on poison ivy leaves is pentadecylcatechol. If urushiol is washed off the skin within an hour or so, the reaction can be largely prevented. However, if left on the skin, some diffuses through the skin, where it is metabolized to quinone derivatives. These form covalent complexes with skin proteins such as keratin. These complexes appear foreign to the immune system, which therefore attacks them. This attack is mediated by T-lymphocytes (one kind of white blood cell) and initiates what is termed a delayed hypersensitivity reaction (a type of allergic reaction) in the body.

I couldn't imagine what kind of havoc inhaling the dust of a poison ivy plant would cause. Probably better left alone. It is not worth the risk.

Here is a link with technical info for urushiol.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urushiol


----------



## bitshird (Feb 15, 2009)

I know that being near any one burning Poison Ivy, Sumac or Oak, is quite risky, I had a guy clear some brush and scrub oak all of which was covered with one or more of the three for me when we bought this place,  he started a huge burn pile and that afternoon he was in the hospital, DO NOT GET NEAR IT while it's burning, it put the guy in the hospital long enough he quit drinking and hasn't smoked any thing since then.
The Idiot was pretty high when he started the fire, sitting with a six pack by his side and a tiny little cigarette in his lips, I had to rush him to the local hospital,


----------



## Druid (Feb 15, 2009)

alphageek said:


> It has been done... I saw an article on it - I think it was in woodturning design.


 
Your "spot on", I went back to read the article in Woodturning Design.  Very interesting, the author has been making/selling poison ivy pens for the last 10 years.  I always take extra precaution on punky spalted wood, my arms start to itch just thinking about turning/sanding pioson ivy! LOL


----------



## Gary Max (Feb 15, 2009)

Heck--- even folks from Kentucky are smart enough to leave poison ivy alone.


----------



## OKLAHOMAN (Feb 15, 2009)

Cocobolo isn't Poison Ivy although some will have a reaction to cocobolo, poison ivy has been known to bring reactions that have hospitalized many. Steve would you substitute fire crackers for dynamite ?




wdcav1952 said:


> You might try referring to your ridiculous parody of my opinion of poison ivy. I have the right to my opinion without someone making fun of it by changing poison ivy to cocobolo. As far as assuming and name calling, purchase a mirror.


----------



## PR_Princess (Feb 15, 2009)

Let me see if I got this right.

We know that poison ivy causes an allergic reaction to all but a small portion of the population. Cocobolo and it's kin can cause a reaction through prolonged exposure, and generally only if you work with the wood. From my perspective, these are two different and distinct issues. 

Novelty and ex's included. I would not want to take the risks and possible lawsuits that might ensue from selling or giving away a pen where 85% of the population is allergic to the material. Never mind exposing yourself while making it. This just does not make any sense to me.


----------



## DCBluesman (Feb 15, 2009)

The reaction caused by poison-ivy, urushiol-induced contact dermatitis, is an allergic reaction. Around 15% to 30% of people have no allergic response, but most people will become sensitized with repeated or more concentrated exposure to urushiol. Reactions can progress to anaphylaxis. (an acute systemic and very severe Type I Hypersensitivity allergic reaction in humans which can lead to death.) Urushiol oil can remain active for several years, so handling dead leaves or vines can cause a reaction. 

For what it is worth, I am not aware of any dalbergia which contains urushiol oil, although the mango tree has a closely related oil which also produces contact dermatitis in a large percentage of the population.

So, turn poison ivy vines but do so with the knowledge that it is more dangerous than most of the woods  with which we typically work.  I'll stick to cocobolo.


----------



## marcruby (Feb 15, 2009)

I always wonder why someone hasn't tried to make lacquer out of poison ivy sap.  It's the same active ingredient that's in Urushi lacquer, which is too expensive for my blood, and also makes me break out in a rash.

Marc


----------



## AceMrFixIt (Feb 15, 2009)

*I had Poison Ivy on the brain.....*

Only way I could scrach it was to think about sandpaper..............


----------



## Lulanrt (Feb 15, 2009)

*Poison Ivy*

I said I would post a pic of my Poison Ivy Pen so hear it is. I have a very bad camera so the pic is bad. Hope it shows up ok. 
Travis


----------



## Glenn McCullough (Feb 15, 2009)

*poison ivy*

There was an article last year , I think, in Woodturning Design on turning pens of poison Ivy. If you cant find the article on line, PM me and i will scan it and send it to you. 



snowman said:


> has anybody made a pen out of poison ivy? I had a tree taken out and it had the biggest poison ivy vine growing on it I have ever seen. I cut some off to dry and try.


----------



## Lulanrt (Feb 15, 2009)

Editor's Note from Woodturning Design the above article:
Poison Ivy Pen
We have received a number of negative comments about John Styer’s Poison Ivy Pen article featured in this issue. Most were quite concerned about publishing this article because of the potential health ramifications involved with having a severe reaction to the vine. I understand these concerns and initially was quite apprehensive myself. 

However, one of the original goals of our magazine was to publish articles about different and exotic turning materials, and this certainly qualifies as one. Turners are a diverse group of people and can have allergic reactions to a whole host of materials; cocobolo is one that comes to mind quickly. Not just a few turners are highly sensitive to this wood—many have had severe adverse reactions if they even touch the wood. Even though some turners are allergic to cocobolo, we still publish articles where this wood is featured. So after some thought, I decided to go ahead and publish the poison ivy article. 

I guess what it all comes down to is personal responsibility and choice. I like to read articles about parachuting, but I’m not going to jump out of a plane! We all make our own choices in life. As I said in the Editor’s Note, if you are the least bit concerned about an allergic reaction to poison ivy, don’t turn it!


----------



## great12b4ever (Feb 16, 2009)

There are so many good decent things we could make pens out of, why would we want to take a chance of hurting/harming ourselves or others by using something that may or may not hurt someone? I mean we could make pens using the blades out of disposable razors, or we could cast and make pens out of rattlesnake fangs, or tenacles from Man-O-Wars, or barbs from Sting-a-rays. Heck we could even grow a nice bit of mold and mildew, or poisnous mushrooms, and then cast them into pen blanks. If we did, and some child got a hold of the pen, put it in their mouth, bit down enough to penetrate the thin covering, and then got that "stuff" in their mouths, they could get sick or die from it, then where would you be?

IMHO we need to leave the dubious items and potentially harmful items alone and keep this as a positive, ever-growing, expanding enterprise, looking to forward our hobby/business rather than doing things that could have the potential of disastrous consequences.

And that is my 2 cents worth. You can agree or disagree, follow or ignore, or trash to you hearts content. I do not plan on making any additional comments about this.

Thanks


----------



## Lulanrt (Feb 16, 2009)

If you have turned Chechem I would say there is no difference in poison ivy and chechem. The dangerous part is in the harvesting of the woods. Chechem bark contains a caustic sap but the wood is fine.  I would say if we lived in Guatemala and wondered the jungles there we would be just as afraid of Chechem as we are of poison ivy. I am sure there are many others like chechem and I am sure we have turned them before without even knowing it.  Che-Chem is the Mayan name for black poisonwood. This wood is used to make furniture. Just one example of many poison ivy like woods we use without out fear of hurting others with it.
Travis


----------

