# Sanding media and their grits



## gketell

Hi all,

A few years back Larry Robertson started a list of different sanding media and the micron sizes used. 

It helped me because I would sand with sandpaper, then use steel wool, then use micromesh, then polishing compounds and I found that I was going backwards in my process several times.

I've since added quite a bit to the list and thought I would make it available for others to use. Originally it was an Excel spreadsheet but now it is freely available on my Google Docs. If you are interested, you can see it here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgMwcL6ygHRqdG1pai1uOTBaRzhFdlZYOVd4YmN4Q0E

Please let me know if you have any more information that could be added to the list.
GK


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## Jim15

Greg, thanks for sharing.


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## KenV

Greg -- the 0.5 micron green compound is that size only  if it is exclusively chromium dioxide.   Some green compounds are a mixture of grits, including the green honing compond sold by Lee Valley.


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## KenV

I went and looked =  Dieter Schmidt has this one that I have used on several occasions as the most comprehensive set I have found.

Conversion Chart Abrasives - Grit Sizes

I interpolate P 4000 to be 6 microns


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## Culprit

Lowes sells a green Porter Cable brand polishing compound labeled as "Fine". PCPC5. 

Does anyone know the micron size of it's abrasive?


Thank you for the link to the charts!


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## gketell

KenV said:


> Greg -- the 0.5 micron green compound is that size only  if it is exclusively chromium dioxide.   Some green compounds are a mixture of grits, including the green honing compond sold by Lee Valley.



Good to know, thanks!!  After digging a ton, it appears that is true for all "compounds": There is no way to know unless the manufacturer lists the micron size specifically and most don't.  



KenV said:


> I went and looked =  Dieter Schmidt has this one that I have used on several occasions as the most comprehensive set I have found.
> 
> Conversion Chart Abrasives - Grit Sizes
> 
> I interpolate P 4000 to be 6 microns



That is a good list.  It is interesting how the there are occasionally different micron sizes listed on the same line.  Makes it kind of confusing.  But it is very complete as far as "sandpaper grits" goes.



Culprit said:


> Lowes sells a green Porter Cable brand polishing compound labeled as "Fine". PCPC5.
> 
> Does anyone know the micron size of it's abrasive?
> 
> 
> Thank you for the link to the charts!



Sorry, they don't list it.  But googling around, some users on BladeForums.com tried to find out too and could only find the materials used to make the compounds, not the actual micron size.  CPCP5 is White Aluminum Oxide and Chromium diOxide so it is likely a blend of sizes.  




			
				Jim15 said:
			
		

> Thanks for sharing.



You are very welcome!

GK


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## edstreet

The compounds are broken into groups, you have the sanding compounds, i.e. 240 grit compound formax, which can replace sandpaper.  Then you have buffing/polishing compound which is products like flitz, for metal and hard plastics.  Most of these yield a very big range of results depending on the wheel type used.  

It's somewhat pointless to look at the micron size of the buffing paste which is why companies list them as rough cut, initial polish and final polish.


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## Culprit

Thank you, guys.


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## BKelley

Has anyone used Simichrome?  How does it rate in your opinion?  What would be the micron size?

Thanks, Ben


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## alamocdc

Greg, this is a great list! Thanks to you and Larry for doing this.

But you just busted my bubble! For years, I've been wet sanding all of my synthetics with MicroMesh and following it up with Novus 2. According to your list, I've been going backward... quit a bit micron wise. And I wasn't alone. Worse is the fact that I would swear it made the pen barrels more glossy. Was it my imagination?

Worse yet is the fact that I ordered 64 oz of Novus 2 a few days ago!!! Where's that head slap icon when you need it?

Oh, and I just finished wet sanding some rattlesnake barrels with my OLD MM (pics coming later, guys) and they look great! Part of me wants to grab the Novus and finish them off just because old habits die hard. The other part says, "No, leave 'em alone! They look great!" Sheesh!


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## triw51

alamocdc said:


> Greg, this is a great list! Thanks to you and Larry for doing this.
> 
> But you just busted my bubble! For years, I've been wet sanding all of my synthetics with MicroMesh and following it up with Novus 2. According to your list, I've been going backward... quit a bit micron wise. And I wasn't alone. Worse is the fact that I would swear it made the pen barrels more glossy. Was it my imagination?
> 
> Worse yet is the fact that I ordered 64 oz of Novus 2 a few days ago!!! Where's that head slap icon when you need it?
> 
> Oh, and I just finished wet sanding some rattlesnake barrels with my OLD MM (pics coming later, guys) and they look great! Part of me wants to grab the Novus and finish them off just because old habits die hard. The other part says, "No, leave 'em alone! They look great!" Sheesh!


 

I wet sanded with MM thruogh 12000 then used white diamond which is going backwards.  WOW this chart is an education THANK YOU for the effort in doing this work.


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## WIDirt

I am unsure of where to get it, but a few years back (12, shhhhhhh!) I took a fiber optics class to become certified in fiber installation and repair, and we had .5 micron sand paper. It was certified to be .5 or smaller grit. It was the only way to get the polish clear enough on the end of the fiber to maintain certain required decibel limits on data fibers. It felt like it was just plain plastic, but you could really tell a difference when it was used. 

To give just a quick reason why we would need something that small. A standard fiber, without any type of cladding on it, is only 3 microns in diameter! With full doped cladding, it was only 12. When cutting and trimming, if a piece got dropped, class STOPPED! It was not resumed until that tiny piece was located and collected. Fiber does NOT show up on xrays........

I'll try to find a link or place to get it as my last catalog subscription finally expired a couple years ago. I do know it was kinda 'spensive, if you know what I mean.


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## brownsfn2

I just decided this week to change my finishing procedure.  Here is what I used to do:

1. Sand to 1200 Grit
2. Micro Mesh to 12000
3. Novus #3
4. Novus #2 - 5.5 micron
5. Buff (Caswell Ultra-Fine 3 micron)
5. Buff (Caswell Fine .5 micron) 

Now I am leaving out the Micro-Mesh and going straight to buffing after Novus.  It saves a lot of time and I think the finish is the same.

Does anyone know the Micron size in Novus #3?


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## edstreet

Maybe now people will start waking up and realizing you do need to use only ONE of micro mesh/liquid polish/buffing compound, not multiples.  

Seriously, go to a jewelry store and buy yourself a 16x loupe and look at your blanks, you will start to see some amazing things, for example if you are using novus you just need novus #3 after 800 grit and you can stop there.  Same with micromesh or buffing compound.

Just about every post I have seen on this forum about novus has been well underestimating it's power.  Most seems to use crap after novus which defeats the purpose.  This particular product will do a very broad range and very fast to.

Some of the Micro-mesh you can skip as it's not needed for many surfaces.  The harder the material the more grit sizes you will need;  The softer the material the less grit sizes you need.


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## edstreet

brownsfn2 said:


> I just decided this week to change my finishing procedure.  Here is what I used to do:
> 
> 1. Sand to 1200 Grit
> 2. Micro Mesh to 12000
> 3. Novus #3
> 4. Novus #2 - 5.5 micron
> 5. Buff (Caswell Ultra-Fine 3 micron)
> 5. Buff (Caswell Fine .5 micron)
> 
> Now I am leaving out the Micro-Mesh and going straight to buffing after Novus.  It saves a lot of time and I think the finish is the same.
> 
> Does anyone know the Micron size in Novus #3?



Novus #3 is:

 Dipropylene Glycol Monomethyl Ether 3-7%
 Alumina dust 10-30%
 Water 60-80%


Novus #2 is:

 mineral spirits 7-13%
 silica, amorphous, diatomaceous earth 1-5%
 crystalline silicas 0-4.3%
 morpholine 1-5%
 oleic acid 1-5%
 water 60-70%

From experience here Novus #3 is likely somewhere around 4-6 microns,  #2 is around 1-4 microns and #1 is under 0.5.


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## WIDirt

Here you go. 

.5 micron sanding pads.

http://www.specialized.net/Specialized/PFAO5-Miller-Fiber-Optic-Polishing-Film-5-Micron-10Pack-105.aspx

Dang, I just found these:

0.3 micron!!!

Product Catalog: 3M


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## edstreet

Dont forget the 0.02 micro pads.


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## alamocdc

edstreet said:


> From experience here ... (Novus) #2 is around 1-4 microns...


 
So you are saying the Greg and Larry's info that Novus 2 is 5.5 microns is incorrect?


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## edstreet

Not sure on that!  I plan on calling the company tomorrow and ask.  I also have some micro mesh showing up this week and will be doing some shop testing and will post results.

Maybe it is me that is incorrect and we will get to the bottom of this


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## Texatdurango

Good post Greg!

I have no need for micro mesh but do use a lot of abranet and abralon up to 2000 grit and when looking for micron information earlier this evening I noticed they now have abralon up to 4000 grit.  I'm going to order some 4000 tomorrow and will try to find out the micron size so we can add it to the list.


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## edstreet

alamocdc said:


> edstreet said:
> 
> 
> 
> From experience here ... (Novus) #2 is around 1-4 microns...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So you are saying the Greg and Larry's info that Novus 2 is 5.5 microns is incorrect?
Click to expand...


Ok I would like to make a CORRECTION.  I just spoke with the novus company about #1, #2 and #3.  Yes indeed Greg and Larry's info that novus 2 is 5.5 microns is indeed incorrect.  Here is how/why.

Novus #3 is a harsh abrasive, meaning the hardness of the particles that it contains is very hard.  #3 will remove the scratches from 600-800 grit sandpaper, EASILY, due to the HARDNESS of the particles.  They tell me that #3 *may* leave a haze but #2 will take that out.  The 1:1 macro shots I took recently showing compound in the wood pours can be removed with #1.

Novus #2 is a somewhat soft abrasive, meaning the hardness of the particles that it contains is not that hard.  #2 will remove the haze left by #3. #2 will EASILY remove the scratches left by 1,200-2,500 grit sand paper.

Novus #1 is a CLEANER ONLY. it leaves a silicon residue on the surface to help reduce dust and fingerprints on the item.


So in short sand with paper down to 600-1000 grit, then use Novus #3 on a paper towel, if there is a haze use novus #2, if not then use novus #1 and NOTHING after that.  Using micro mesh or buffing compound will damage the finish, like going from a 1200 grit finish to 200 grit sanding.

As for the micron size goes he did not know the exact particle size as it is a range but to remove 600-1200 grit lines it would have to be SMALLER size.  Also do not confuse particle size with hardness of the abrasive particles.

Ed


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## brownsfn2

I would say that is consistent with my experience using Novus but after #2 if I look at the surface of my acrylic pens I will still see some scratches.  If I take it to the buffer (3 micron and then .5) it will take those really subtle scratches out that are probably only seen with a jewelers loop anyway.


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## edstreet

Ron, correct.  You can get buffing compound that will replace *ALL* grades of sandpaper.  Buffing is indeed itself a very diverse range.  If you are seeing scratches then likely the problem is you do not have the very very very deep scratches out from the sandpaper itself in those areas.  Then the #3 is removing most of them.  

One trick I use is put a pad or my finger on the other side of the blank from the sandpaper to catch the dust, it works just as well as wet sanding FYI   Secret is to not allow the dust back into the sanding media to gouge deep scratches, spent dust itself will become abrasive.


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## alphageek

edstreet said:


> Novus #3 is a CLEANER ONLY. it leaves a silicon residue on the surface to help reduce dust and fingerprints on the item.



Wanted to point out a typo here.. Novus #1 is the cleaner, not 3.  (Just to make sure to help the newer people that may read this catch that and don't get confused.)


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## edstreet

Oh crap. Can you fix my typo please?


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## KenV

G





Texatdurango said:


> Good post Greg!
> 
> I have no need for micro mesh but do use a lot of abranet and abralon up to 2000 grit and when looking for micron information earlier this evening I noticed they now have abralon up to 4000 grit.  I'm going to order some 4000 tomorrow and will try to find out the micron size so we can add it to the list.



George 

For P-4000 you can enterpolate from the Dieter Schmidt table to 6micron particle.  I went to the European standards site, and found the official standards go to P2500.  Several manufactures have extended the numbering to P5000 or so.

There are still some firms that make both CAMI numbered, ANSI numbered, and P numbered products, and the number systems are not interchangable.  Then there are those who have a separate schema of numbering like the micro mesh folks.


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## brownsfn2

edstreet said:


> One trick I use is put a pad or my finger on the other side of the blank from the sandpaper to catch the dust, it works just as well as wet sanding FYI   Secret is to not allow the dust back into the sanding media to gouge deep scratches, spent dust itself will become abrasive.



Good Idea!  Occasionally I will get a deep scratch and never thought it might be the sanding dust.  This might explain a lot in sanding tru-stone as it seems to be more coarse.  I am trying it tonight.   Thanks!


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## edstreet

brownsfn2 said:


> edstreet said:
> 
> 
> 
> One trick I use is put a pad or my finger on the other side of the blank from the sandpaper to catch the dust, it works just as well as wet sanding FYI   Secret is to not allow the dust back into the sanding media to gouge deep scratches, spent dust itself will become abrasive.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good Idea!  Occasionally I will get a deep scratch and never thought it might be the sanding dust.  This might explain a lot in sanding tru-stone as it seems to be more coarse.  I am trying it tonight.   Thanks!
Click to expand...


Tru-stone is basically stone chips wrapped up in epoxy.  Stone chips itself is abrasive.  Often times these chips will break out and not sand down because they are harder than the abrasives or the epoxy bond is weaker.   Moral of this story is just about every type of dust produced from pen blanks can lead to scratches. 

Wet sanding flushes these particles out, if you use it correctly that is.  If you look in the search there is this one post about how many microns can you feel.  That is a good relative article to this topic.  Besides with the thumb method I mentioned you can feel those deep scratches and know when they are out.  This is one of the big reasons I use slower speeds, 1k - 1.2k rpm max


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## Holz Mechaniker

There are 3 that perhaps may have been overlooked or even not thought about

They are:
Automotive Rubbing Compound.
Pumice.
Rotten Stone.
Where do they fall?


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## edstreet

Pumice and stone is based on how they are processed.  

AS for auto finishes, well stay away from them.  They are not designed for super long term finishes, they are designed to be removed and reapplied often.


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## NewLondon88

just an FYI, you probably don't want to put Novus 1 anywhere near
wood. It WILL contaminate the wood and no finish will ever properly
stick to it again.

Do a google search for "pledge syndrome" so well known to people
who refinish/refurbish furniture. Once you've put silicone to the wood,
it will never come out. even with the harshest chemical stippers, even
by removing more wood. (because the silicone contaminates the tool
which in turn touches the new wood surface)

And, just like Pledge, Novus 1 has to be re-applied all the time because
it doesn't polish out scratches, it simply leaves silicone residue in them.
That hides the scratches. Once the oil starts to dry, you can see the 
scratches again. So you re-apply.


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## NewLondon88

IF all goes well tomorrow, I can add 3 more products to the list.
right now they're in an ultrasonic transducer and should be ready
in the morning. Then I test them. They'll be fast cutting diamond
pastes, 1 micron, .5 micron and .25 micron. 
 (yeah.. 0.0000098425" grit particles! ) should be good for resins,
CA, stone and metals. Should last pretty much forever, too


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## Wildman

Here is some nice to know information which has help me a bit. 

Bebhionn - everything you wanted to know about sandpaper


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## azamiryou

Wildman said:


> Here is some nice to know information which has help me a bit.
> 
> Bebhionn - everything you wanted to know about sandpaper



Thank you, that's a really interesting read and full of great information and data.


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## Holz Mechaniker

edstreet said:


> Pumice and stone is based on how they are processed.
> 
> AS for auto finishes, well stay away from them..



Okay. but that doesn't answer my question.


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## edstreet

Holz Mechaniker said:


> edstreet said:
> 
> 
> 
> Pumice and stone is based on how they are processed.
> 
> AS for auto finishes, well stay away from them..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Okay. but that doesn't answer my question.
Click to expand...


Auto finishes would fit into the sanding arena the same spot that wax would fit.  This is more of a finish, i.e. CA finish rather than an abrasive.


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## Wildman

They do make auto care product that do not contain silicone.  Really depends upon what you are trying to accomplish, wax is merely a decoration; it is true of scratch removing products too. 

Auto rubbing compounds may help remove dust nips in final film finish. Never use between coats of finish. Can also use to help reduce finish sheen (shellac, varnish, and lacquer) on pen blanks.  Never use on an assembled pen,

I used One Grand Special Touch Cleaner on acrylic pen blanks to remove scratches after going through wet sanding and polishing with micromesh.  Continued with that procedure even after picking up some Hut Ultra Gloss plastic polish.  Not sure when it dawn on me to stop doing that unnecessary step. 

I also used One Grand STC, after final coat of lacquer finish. Stopped doing that because felt wet sanding and polishing with micromesh lot easier. 

Pumice and rottenstone fine abrasives used to finish the finish (rubbing out) by wood workers for very long time, except for refinishers and traditionalist not as popular these days.  Again never, want to use on assembled pen. Yes, will use 4F pumice paste (mixed with either mineral oil or water) on other turnings to finish the finish and reduce sheen. I have never used rottenstone. 

I agree auto care products and pumice/rottenstone just add unecessary steps in finihing your pens.


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## edstreet

> Rotten stone, sometimes spelled as rottenstone, also known as tripoli, is fine powdered rock used as a polishing abrasive in woodworking. It is usually weathered limestone mixed with diatomaceous, amorphous, or crystalline silica. It has similar applications to pumice, but it is generally sold as a finer powder and used for a more glossy polish after an initial treatment with coarser pumice powder.
> 
> It is usually mixed with oil, sometimes water, and rubbed on the surface of varnished or lacquered wood with a felt pad or cloth. Rotten stone is sometimes used to buff stains out of wood. Some polishing waxes contain powdered rotten stone in a paste substrate. For larger polishing jobs, rotten stone mixed with a binder is applied to polishing wheels.



^^^


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## KenV

Holz Mechaniker said:


> edstreet said:
> 
> 
> 
> Pumice and stone is based on how they are processed.
> 
> AS for auto finishes, well stay away from them..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Okay. but that doesn't answer my question.
Click to expand...



The answer is dependent on the source.  I have not found technical standards with measurement parameters for pumice and rottenstone as abrasives.  I am certain that users of pumice such as lava soap do have specs,

In general, these are lower "grit numbers"  in polishing compounds.  

The traditional use for rottenstone was to hand rub shellac finishes -- such as french polish process.


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## soundman

Here are a couple of things that may perhaps confuse the matter and perhaps explain some things.

As some may have found out micron size of the abrasive is not everything

One of the big ( relativly recent) advances in buffing compounds and the same advance allows products like micromesh, is the ability to incredibly accuraterly grade abrasives and produce and accuraltely grade very fine ones.
Lots of the older style abrasives have a wide range of grit sizes in the mix and may have a  persentage of lumpy bits significantly larger than the average size.

SO a modern abrasive of the some quoted micron size may perform better than an older type because it has more accuraltly sized gritt.



I still use an automotive buffing  compound called L2, that my supplier used to bring in from japan by the 44 and bottle up in litres........it was the top stuff  arround here maybe 10 yaers ago......it consisted of water, hydrocarbon( white spitit)  and microabrasive nothing else.
It still gives my acrillics a fabulous sheen...and there is still plenty left in my litre bottle....and it cost arround $20 back then...WAY cheaper than norvus.......there is an L3 and I have a sample but it is sooo fine it is reduculous


BUT it has been overtaken by the latest advance, that is the ability to produce very regular nearly round abrasive particles, these perform so much more consistently and produce a better gloss from a theoreicaly larger particle .

My local supplier has a small workshop behind their supply business that they use to keep them in touch with the real world......when they first got some of the latest generation compound they where stunned at how agressive it was and gentle at the same time.....they could go to compound after missing the two top grits of hand rubbing and still get a stunning hotrod level shine without going to the finer grade of compound...AND faster

It all comes down to making more consistent and regular particles.


Then you have abrasives that are designed to break down in use......some abrasives are hard and strong particles like Aluminium oxide and carborundum, as they are worked they stay the same size but just get blunt.
Other abrasive, pummice/rottenstone and garnet for example break into sharp, jagged but smaller pieces as they are worked, and they are selected for this reason.

That is why pummice/rottenstone is used in french polishing and why it is used in EEE ultrashine.

cheers


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## lrawlins

Heck, I've been in the coated abrasive business for 34 years and still find grit sizes confusing. If grit sizes can confuse those us who make our livelihood from it, well you know....

My grit chart comparing CAMI & FEPA is located at:

Grit Chart

Yes there are other grit sizes, but I very seldom run in to them.

Basically CAMI (USA) & FEPA (European) grits coarser than 240 are about the same, but finer grits do not compare at all grit size for grit size.

Most of our products are FEPA or "P" graded.

As for me when I sand a pen I typically start at P120 and go up to P400 then apply a CA finish.

Bye for now,


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