# CA difficulties with African Ebony



## Grampy (Mar 11, 2020)

I bought some blanks @ woodcraft labeled African Ebony.  I've made 2 pens so far, both times the CA finish was I'll say blotchy and uneven.. At 1st I thought maybe the CA was bad so I made a pen out of Mahogany and it turned out fine.. I sanded all the CA off tried again, similar results, so I sanded the CA off again and finished with lemon oil and they turned out fine.  My question is has anyone else had similar experience with African Ebony?  In the meantime I have labeled all my African Ebony blanks to remind (alert) me not to try the CA again.


----------



## jttheclockman (Mar 11, 2020)

There is no reason that I know why it would not work. You need to seal the wood and I do this with thin CA. 3 or 4 coats. Then it is a matter of CA laying on top of each other to build up coats. I use Gabon Ebony alot and have no problems.


----------



## Grampy (Mar 12, 2020)

jttheclockman said:


> There is no reason that I know why it would not work. You need to seal the wood and I do this with thin CA. 3 or 4 coats. Then it is a matter of CA laying on top of each other to build up coats. I use Gabon Ebony alot and have no problems.


Thanx for your insights..I also use "thin" of at least  3 coats to "seal" the wood.. for some reason it just didn't look good, and until I sanded it all off it continued to look bad.. to be honest I spent alot of time and frustration...


----------



## jttheclockman (Mar 12, 2020)

When you say it looks bad could mean lots of things. Again it is glue and that all it is. Now you can have contamination from oils so wipe the blank down with acetone and let dry before you add the thin CA. If it looks bad with the thin, then there is no reason to proceed with the med. Wasting your time. You can have a moisture problem and this cause blushing or cloudy spots. You could have sanded too far down when polishing. If you would have taken a few photos and posted maybe we could have help that way. Other than that I do not know what else to tell you. I have finished rosewoods which are far more oily than ebony and had no problem. If you are using stick fast that is some of the most talked about CA glue here and I would not trust it. Finishing with lemon oil is not a finish. It will look good for a a day or two till it drys out. Maybe just try polishing the wood itself with no top coat. I do this alot with Rosewoods when I use for scrollsawing. I will buff on my buffer with white polishing compound and then a coat of wax and it shines very well. Have done pens this way also. Maybe that ebony can be done that way too. But you need to sand to at least 600 grit to close up the pores. I also dip the piece in Danish oil which has some poly in it so that seals the wood. I am afraid though if using white polishing compound it will get in the pores and show. Maybe someone else can help. I have nothing else without seeing what you are talking about. The rest is guess work. You could always spray with lacquer or poly if you want a top coat that will stand up to some abuse.


Older threads:

https://www.penturners.org/threads/ca-blo-on-african-blackwood.81506/

https://www.penturners.org/threads/...se-dullness-to-ca-finishes.55240/#post-956391






						CA-BLO finish questions
					

I have read a lot about this and gave it a try yesterday. End result was I really messed up a turned blank. Questions- what is the BLO for, I understand it is applied first followed immediately by the CA. What does it add to the process?  I tried applying the thick CA as the blank was turning...



					www.penturners.org


----------



## Grampy (Mar 12, 2020)

jttheclockman said:


> When you say it looks bad could mean lots of things. Again it is glue and that all it is. Now you can have contamination from oils so wipe the blank down with acetone and let dry before you add the thin CA. If it looks bad with the thin, then there is no reason to proceed with the med. Wasting your time. You can have a moisture problem and this cause blushing or cloudy spots. You could have sanded too far down when polishing. If you would have taken a few photos and posted maybe we could have help that way. Other than that I do not know what else to tell you. I have finished rosewoods which are far more oily than ebony and had no problem. If you are using stick fast that is some of the most talked about CA glue here and I would not trust it. Finishing with lemon oil is not a finish. It will look good for a a day or two till it drys out. Maybe just try polishing the wood itself with no top coat. I do this alot with Rosewoods when I use for scrollsawing. I will buff on my buffer with white polishing compound and then a coat of wax and it shines very well. Have done pens this way also. Maybe that ebony can be done that way too. But you need to sand to at least 600 grit to close up the pores. I also dip the piece in Danish oil which has some poly in it so that seals the wood. I am afraid though if using white polishing compound it will get in the pores and show. Maybe someone else can help. I have nothing else without seeing what you are talking about. The rest is guess work. You could always spray with lacquer or poly if you want a top coat that will stand up to some abuse.
> 
> 
> Older threads:
> ...


Thanx, in my routine I don't (normally) stop the lathe between thin & medium coats. Evidence lost.  (Idea for the future)

Before micromesh I could see some blothchy areas (white spots).  After MM still there ..I've sanded thru the CA in the past, that wasn't it.  Anyway I took no pictures, sanded to the "bare wood" and it repeated, I tried another African Ebony blank, same results... thinking it could be bad CA, I tried a mahogany blank. A OK. So I sanded the Af Eb back to wood and finished another way.

I posted wondering if it was common or not...with the insights provided, I'll likely try again as an experiment... worst case it fails again and CA will not be what I use on the Af Ebony..  Also to re enforce the CA is OK, I turned a walnut scrap for a bottle stopper today, CA finish was OK..Again thanx for your experience and insights, if it happens again, maybe I'll think to take a picture.


----------



## Grampy (Mar 12, 2020)

Grampy said:


> Thanx, in my routine I don't (normally) stop the lathe between thin & medium coats. Evidence lost.  (Idea for the future)
> 
> Before micromesh I could see some blothchy areas (white spots).  After MM still there ..I've sanded thru the CA in the past, that wasn't it.  Anyway I took no pictures, sanded to the "bare wood" and it repeated, I tried another African Ebony blank, same results... thinking it could be bad CA, I tried a mahogany blank. A OK. So I sanded the Af Eb back to wood and finished another way.
> 
> I posted wondering if it was common or not...with the insights provided, I'll likely try again as an experiment... worst case it fails again and CA will not be what I use on the Af Ebony..  Also to re enforce the CA is OK, I turned a walnut scrap for a bottle stopper today, CA finish was OK..Again thanx for your experience and insights, if it happens again, maybe I'll think to take a picture.


Also I do a wipedown with denatured alcohol prior to CA, can try Acetone...


----------



## Fred Bruche (Mar 12, 2020)

How long have you had the ebony blanks? Are you confident the wood is actually dry? Dense woods like ebony hold moisture much more than other woods, and moisture + CA aren't compatible and could potentially explain your problem.


----------



## darrin1200 (Mar 12, 2020)

I have had similar problems with oily woods. When I am finished sanding to my desired amount, usually 600, I then wipe with alcohol.
I take a couple of pieces of paper towel  and wipe with pure alcohol. (I use BioFlame). I wipe it a few times, until I get almost no colouration coming off. I believe this removes all the oils from the outer layers of the wood. Then as soon as its dry, 10-15 seconds, I apply my first coat of CA. I will also note, that I seal the ends of my blanks with CA, before I start.
I think this process removes all the oils from the top, and before they can wick there way to the surface again, the CA seals everything in.
Just my method.


----------



## leehljp (Mar 12, 2020)

What is happening: With oily wood, as has been mentioned, there is a lack of adhesion. In most woods, thin CA will soak/sink in to at least microscopically just below the surface but it does not get a chance with oily wood. Therefore the best bet is to remove the oil. Alcohol can do it and for some it works OK. Acetone in general will do better since it is not water based. Higher humidity areas will in general have more white spot problems when using alcohol than dryer humidity areas do.

There is one type of black African wood, can't remember which, that the removal of oils/moisture causes the surface layer to leach out the surface pigment of the wood. Get a fresh piece and wipe one side with a white paper towel with alcohol on the paper towel. Then do the other side with a white paper towel and acetone. Does either have dark pigment on it? if so, it is leaching out it pigment from the surface, and then the finish will highlight it in certain areas and show up lighter in color. Bloodwood (not satire) will leach out (but not show up as white spots later).

Separation of the CA from the blank happens considerably with oily woods and in particularly ebony, and they have to be treated more delicately than others. If the blank is finished with the bushings on, when the bushings are separated from the CA'ed blank, that little "snap" will cause the CA to "lift" and white spots form under the CA on the ends. Best way to avoid this is to finish the blanks without bushings.


----------



## darrin1200 (Mar 12, 2020)

leehljp said:


> What is happening: With oily wood, as has been mentioned, there is a lack of adhesion. In most woods, thin CA will soak/sink in to at least microscopically just below the surface but it does not get a chance with oily wood. Therefore the best bet is to remove the oil. Alcohol can do it and for some it works OK. Acetone in general will do better since it is not water based. Higher humidity areas will in general have more white spot problems when using alcohol than dryer humidity areas do.


This is why I went with the BioFlame. IIRC it has less than 1% water. I also use it for mixing my shellac.


----------



## Ironwood (Mar 12, 2020)

One of the Rosewoods that I use is problematic when either wiping with acetone or when applying the first coat of CA, the darker colors in the timber mix with the acetone or CA and turn the surface a muddy brown color, I have overcome this by using  clear spraycan Lacquer as a sealing coat, then move on to CA once the lacquer dries. Maybe this approach will work with your Ebony by isolating the wood and the CA from each other.


----------



## jttheclockman (Mar 12, 2020)

Ironwood said:


> One of the Rosewoods that I use is problematic when either wiping with acetone or when applying the first coat of CA, the darker colors in the timber mix with the acetone or CA and turn the surface a muddy brown color, I have overcome this by using  clear spraycan Lacquer as a sealing coat, then move on to CA once the lacquer dries. Maybe this approach will work with your Ebony by isolating the wood and the CA from each other.


If you are going to do that then I suggest use a dewaxed shellac. My thoughts.


----------



## Grampy (Mar 12, 2020)

Fred Bruche said:


> How long have you had the ebony blanks? Are you confident the wood is actually dry? Dense woods like ebony hold moisture much more than other woods, and moisture + CA aren't compatible and could potentially explain your problem.


How long have you had the ebony blanks? a couple of weeks, om Clearance form the Woodcraft store in Cincinnati, Ohio
Are you confident the wood is actually dry? No
Dense woods like ebony hold moisture much more than other woods, and moisture + CA aren't compatible and could potentially explain your problem. 

Thanx for your insights


----------



## Grampy (Mar 12, 2020)

darrin1200 said:


> I have had similar problems with oily woods. When I am finished sanding to my desired amount, usually 600, I then wipe with alcohol.
> I take a couple of pieces of paper towel  and wipe with pure alcohol. (I use BioFlame). I wipe it a few times, until I get almost no colouration coming off. I believe this removes all the oils from the outer layers of the wood. Then as soon as its dry, 10-15 seconds, I apply my first coat of CA. I will also note, that I seal the ends of my blanks with CA, before I start.
> I think this process removes all the oils from the top, and before they can wick there way to the surface again, the CA seals everything in.
> Just my method.


Sounds good, I'll have to give that a try.  THANX


----------



## Grampy (Mar 12, 2020)

darrin1200 said:


> This is why I went with the BioFlame. IIRC it has less than 1% water. I also use it for mixing my shellac.


Thanx for the perspective, seems logical to me..


----------



## Grampy (Mar 12, 2020)

leehljp said:


> What is happening: With oily wood, as has been mentioned, there is a lack of adhesion. In most woods, thin CA will soak/sink in to at least microscopically just below the surface but it does not get a chance with oily wood. Therefore the best bet is to remove the oil. Alcohol can do it and for some it works OK. Acetone in general will do better since it is not water based. Higher humidity areas will in general have more white spot problems when using alcohol than dryer humidity areas do.
> 
> There is one type of black African wood, can't remember which, that the removal of oils/moisture causes the surface layer to leach out the surface pigment of the wood. Get a fresh piece and wipe one side with a white paper towel with alcohol on the paper towel. Then do the other side with a white paper towel and acetone. Does either have dark pigment on it? if so, it is leaching out it pigment from the surface, and then the finish will highlight it in certain areas and show up lighter in color. Bloodwood (not satire) will leach out (but not show up as white spots later).
> 
> Separation of the CA from the blank happens considerably with oily woods and in particularly ebony, and they have to be treated more delicately than others. If the blank is finished with the bushings on, when the bushings are separated from the CA'ed blank, that little "snap" will cause the CA to "lift" and white spots form under the CA on the ends. Best way to avoid this is to finish the blanks without bushings.


Thanx, this is great info..  When I use it (the Ebony) again, I'll have to provide an update...


----------



## Grampy (Mar 12, 2020)

Ironwood said:


> One of the Rosewoods that I use is problematic when either wiping with acetone or when applying the first coat of CA, the darker colors in the timber mix with the acetone or CA and turn the surface a muddy brown color, I have overcome this by using  clear spraycan Lacquer as a sealing coat, then move on to CA once the lacquer dries. Maybe this approach will work with your Ebony by isolating the wood and the CA from each other.


Acetone seems to be a common theme, thanx folks,


----------



## Grampy (Mar 12, 2020)

jttheclockman said:


> If you are going to do that then I suggest use a dewaxed shellac. My thoughts.


HMM I have some shellac, I'll have to check if it is "dewaxed"


----------



## jttheclockman (Mar 12, 2020)

Yes you want dewaxed for using under a top coat of any kind due to adhesion problems if wax shellac is used. That is for using it as the top coat itself. It will say right on the can somewhere.


----------



## Ironwood (Mar 12, 2020)

jttheclockman said:


> If you are going to do that then I suggest use a dewaxed shellac. My thoughts.


For the case of the OP, you are likely correct, but for my particular problem I need something that is sprayed on , not rubbed or brushed. The spraycan lacquer is convenient and it works for me.


----------



## jttheclockman (Mar 13, 2020)

Ironwood said:


> For the case of the OP, you are likely correct, but for my particular problem I need something that is sprayed on , not rubbed or brushed. The spraycan lacquer is convenient and it works for me.


They make spray shellac too. 

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Zinsser-...=sem&msclkid=347ab721dd4713b59619e94acfb17907


----------



## Ironwood (Mar 13, 2020)

T


jttheclockman said:


> They make spray shellac too.
> 
> https://www.walmart.com/ip/Zinsser-Bulls-Eye-Shellac-Traditional-Finish-Sealer-Spray-12-oz/48810151?wmlspartner=wmtlabs&adid=22222222222038957102&wmlspartner=wmtlabs&wl0=e&wl1=o&wl2=c&wl3=10357549248&wl4=pla-1103085340476:aud-807615483&wl12=48810151_0&wl14=dewaxed spray shellac&veh=sem&msclkid=347ab721dd4713b59619e94acfb17907


 Thanks. When my can of lacquer runs out, I might have a look at some if any shops in my area stocks it. The lacquer is working quite satisfactorily for now.


----------



## leehljp (Mar 13, 2020)

Ironwood said:


> Thanks. When my can of lacquer runs out, I might have a look at some if any shops in my area stocks it. The lacquer is working quite satisfactorily for now.



There is a method that hasn't been stated here and think a few may still use it - dipping. Purchase a bag of small stoppers and plug the ends of the turned blanks and put a wire hook on it. Dip the blank in Lacquer and hang it to dry/cure. Dip again and let it cure for a thicker finish. This may seem slow but the time per blank completed can be cut considerably by doing a bunch of blanks at once - i.e. do 5 or 10 blanks and let them cure over 6 to 24 hours and it cuts your time considerably per blank.

Just something to mention for those unaware: Due to environmental concerns, most finishes have been moving towards water based, which alters the way things interact. There are advantages and disadvantages of oil based, acetone based and water based finishes. We just have to experiment with each on the different kinds of woods that we use.


----------



## mick (Mar 20, 2020)

It's been my experience that woods like ebony, rosewoods and other oily wood is this, once we sand down to the grit we would with any other wood we've created micro scratches that are so fine there's no "tooth" for the CA to soak into and grab the surface. I've had good luck putting a couple of coats of thin CA on before I ever sand. I don't know what tool youh finish to size with but I use a skew and have a smooth surface to start with so it makes it easy to apply CA at this point. If you don't use a skew try it and you'll be really surprised how smooth your blank will end up. YMMV. Good luck! 

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


----------



## mick (Mar 20, 2020)

Another thing I forgot to mention. Like others have mentioned, wipe your blank down with denatured alcohol before applying CA. One caveat once you open a container of denatured alcohol close it immediately after using. Once it's opened moisture WILL start forming inside the container walls. If it's left open or not capped tightly it WILL have moisture in it the next time you wash a blank with it. Moisture+CA we already know us bad. [emoji33]

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


----------



## jttheclockman (Mar 20, 2020)

mick said:


> Another thing I forgot to mention. Like others have mentioned, wipe your blank down with denatured alcohol before applying CA. One caveat once you open a container of denatured alcohol close it immediately after using. Once it's opened moisture WILL start forming inside the container walls. If it's left open or not capped tightly it WILL have moisture in it the next time you wash a blank with it. Moisture+CA we already know us bad. [emoji33]
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


DNA is used to absorb water also. I use it all the time when I clean my HVLP gun and wash out with water. I lastly run DNA through it to rid the water. Forming humidity inside the can is a tough call. You do not want water in DNA when mixing with shellac. But using on a pen blank means just waiting to dry and that should be done anyway.


----------



## Grampy (Mar 20, 2020)

jttheclockman said:


> DNA is used to absorb water also. I use it all the time when I clean my HVLP gun and wash out with water. I lastly run DNA through it to rid the water. Forming humidity inside the can is a tough call. You do not want water in DNA when mixing with shellac. But using on a pen blank means just waiting to dry and that should be done anyway.


Thanx folks. I do close the lid "quickly on the DNA"... I never thought of the tip re: flushing the HVLP gun.. good idea, I'll have to remember that ...
Other "projects have diverted me, so I haven't got back to the African Ebony yet...


----------

