# Middle Eastern Men with Back Packs



## PenMan1 (Apr 23, 2013)

Today, a young man with a turban and beard, carrying a back pack, was nervously pacing back and forth speaking in a foreign language on his cell phone, right outside the door of our office complex.

Suddenly this young man pulled an electronic device with a digital display from the back pack and started entering numbers as his voice grew louder on the cell phone.

This was more than one redneck could handle!

I'll bet from now on the copier repair company WILL CALL to let us know that their technician is coming by to service our copiers.


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## skiprat (Apr 23, 2013)

Seems to me that the problem is with the Redneck and not with the Copier Repair Company.....:tongue:


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## SerenityWoodWorks (Apr 23, 2013)

I bet that in their country when they see a white redneck they wonder if that redneck has written proof that their mother and father were not brother and sister prior to marriage. Its sad what stereotypes do to humanity.


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## PenMan1 (Apr 23, 2013)

I was NOT stereotyping the individual, but instead the behavior and the backpack.  The device "put me a bit on edge".

I did call the copier company and asked that they let us know when a tech is coming by, or put a company logo shirt on him, an ID tag or something. 

I REALIZE the problem was mine, but in light of recent events, you'd think companies would do a better job of making thier front line people more recognizable.

I realize that it MUST BE HELL to be a Muslum living in the U.S. right now.


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## ed4copies (Apr 23, 2013)

When I started in the copier industry, the tech assigned to handle the equipment I sold was a "turbaned" Indian.

Probably the BEST tech I have encountered in 35 years of copier sales and repair.


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## PenMan1 (Apr 23, 2013)

Ed:
I TOTALLY AGREE, the techs from India are THE BEST we have around here. My point was that COMPANY should be doing more to let us know that their personnel have a reson for being here. A company shirt, an ID badge, ANYTHING!


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## vanngo5d (Apr 23, 2013)

It doesn't matter what ethnic. It should be everyone that works in the service industry needs to wear something to identify themselves and company, a call should also be placed when someone will be there or on there way.


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## SteveJ (Apr 23, 2013)

The problem with stereotypes is that they are so often true - whether it be that the best techs are from India or that what appear to be Muslims with back packs may present a threat.  Due to a series of bank robberies in our town, every bank here requires that you remove your sunglasses and hoodie before entering their lobby.  Not to do so is to be welcomed by a security guard.  Stereotyping, yes.  Appropriate, yes.  I wish that before my daughter-in-law was looking at the business end of a pistol aimed at her by a sunglasses wearing hooded thief that a stereotyping security guard had put a stop to it.  If the person is doing nothing wrong and presents no threat they would have no problem understanding that their attire communicates something they don't want to communicate (and perhaps changing it).  And I'm no redneck.


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## Waluy (Apr 23, 2013)

Unfortunately stereotypes exist for a reason. Are they all accurate of course not, at least 75% of the time the stereotype is just that. I personally found myself right at the center of a stereotype controversy after the Columbine shootings because I wore a black leather trench coat on a daily basis. I was a Senior in high school and had been wearing my trench coat for several years, was an upstanding student, an enlisted soldier and did more to stop fights than most other people in school. Yet because of the shootings my coat was banned (my only winter coat). I still get looks when I wear my trench coat and that was over ten years ago. Unfortunately a few bad people ruin things for everyone who appears to possibly be part of their group.


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## monark88 (Apr 23, 2013)

Luckily for all of us, when the cave man encountered the sabre-toothed Tiger walking slowly over to him, he didn't think the tiger was just another harmless, peaceful kitty-cat, looking for a kindly pet on the tummy.

The Tiger had been stereotyped by his historic actions. Its called "self defense". Stereotyping, if you wish, but self defense. 

Normally I wouldn't say I'm no redneck, but because of email and not knowing one another here, consider it said. All IMHO only.
Russ


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## PenMan1 (Apr 23, 2013)

skiprat said:


> Seems to me that the problem is with the Redneck and not with the Copier Repair Company.....:tongue:


 
Skip:
You are EXACTLY CORRECT! The problem WAS me. AND I HATE FEELING that way. I seriously DOUBT that the ethnicity was what made me edgy.

The erratic behavior and the backpack, coupled with the fact that we didn't have advance notice or ANY INDICATION that person was SUPPOSED to behere put us on edge.

The post was hoping to inspire those who send "front line" people out to businesses or homes to make their people instantly recognizable.Had I seen a company ID, a "uniform", a company vehicle, my first thought would have been "Damned, the copier is broken again", instead of apprehension.


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## monark88 (Apr 23, 2013)

PenMan1 said:


> skiprat said:
> 
> 
> > Seems to me that the problem is with the Redneck and not with the Copier Repair Company.....:tongue:
> ...




I disagree. The repairman is an agent of the company who sent him out, whether he is private contractor or direct employee of that company. He IS the company at that period he is repairing, or for whatever reason he was sent out to you.
When will we stop apologising for defending ourselves!?
Russ


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## D.Oliver (Apr 23, 2013)

I've got a sneaky suspicion that this thread will be moderated at some point.


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## Bigj51 (Apr 23, 2013)

SMJ1957 said:


> The problem with stereotypes is that they are so often true - whether it be that the best techs are from India or that what appear to be Muslims with back packs may present a threat. Due to a series of bank robberies in our town, every bank here requires that you remove your sunglasses and hoodie before entering their lobby. Not to do so is to be welcomed by a security guard. Stereotyping, yes. Appropriate, yes. I wish that before my daughter-in-law was looking at the business end of a pistol aimed at her by a sunglasses wearing hooded thief that a stereotyping security guard had put a stop to it. If the person is doing nothing wrong and presents no threat they would have no problem understanding that their attire communicates something they don't want to communicate (and perhaps changing it). And I'm no redneck.


 
Amen to that! Stereotypes exist for a reason. Without them would you be able to identify a threat? Are stereotypes fair? In somes cases absolutely not. In some cases they are greatly warranted. I think people are far too concerned with being PC and not offending anyone's delicate sensibilities. With the craziness that happens in the world today, you must always be vigilent and aware of what's going on around you. Be paranoid? Absolutely not! But be prepared. That's all I'm saying. Don't make yourself an easy victim.... :bulgy-eyes:


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## alphageek (Apr 23, 2013)

D.Oliver said:


> I've got a sneaky suspicion that this thread will be moderated at some point.



Definitely a topic that could cause feelings to be hurt or people to step over the bounds of whats acceptable here... 

The mods hope things stay calm, but lets all remember to remember both the scope of IAP (international) AND that it can be hard to understand tone of the written word.

Dean
Asst Mod


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## Fireengines (Apr 23, 2013)

How about this one:
White male
Born: April 23, 1968 in Lockport, NY
Died: June 11, 2001
Nationality: American
Religion: Roman Catholic
Military Service: US Army – Received the Bronze Star for his service in the first Gulf War
Place of Death: Terre Haute, Indiana
Cause of Death: Execution by lethal injection
Name: Timothy James "Tim" McVeigh


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## stonepecker (Apr 23, 2013)

I trust everyone until I am given a reason not to.  That can be by "the look" you project or by your "actions".  And it makes not one bit of difference to me whom your parents are/were.  There are "bad" people everywhere.  We have to be prepared in this world today.  Sadly, to many of us are not.
You can be doing nothing wrong ...... there are still eyes on you.
You can be doing nothing wrong ...... and still be a victim.


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## Waluy (Apr 23, 2013)

Fireengines said:


> How about this one:
> White male
> Born: April 23, 1968 in Lockport, NY
> Died: June 11, 2001
> ...



Which is just another reason I feel that Andy's stereotype was more aimed at the backpack and erratic behavior. I don't personally know Andy but I would like to think anyone would be slightly edgy around any person carrying a backpack and acting strangely right now, regardless of ethnicity.


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## Scruffy (Apr 23, 2013)

*Considering the times...*

Consider the alternatives...

1) Your worse fears were realized.... Then you would not be messaging us. You would be dead.

2) You are overly cautious and a bit concerned.  Home land security said for you to do more than you did.. They would have had you call 911 or something.  ... HLS or police could have been involved.  Who knows what would have happen.

All in all, seems to me you were prudent when calling the copier comapny and checking on them rather than calling HLS. 

and so what are you going to do next time that a similar situation comes up.  

Say "naw nothing can happen".... Reread alternative number 1.

Alan


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## PenMan1 (Apr 23, 2013)

Steve Beavers:
I think you have a full grasp of my thinking. Right now, because of some things happening in the Atlanta area, the Feds, State and City Governments have us all on edge. In fact, they are running ad campaigns encouraging everyone to notice ANYTHING unusual and report it.

I AM SURE that I WOULD HAVE STILL reported this event, REGARDLESS of the ethnicity, based only on the erratic behavior, the back pack and the Gentleman's failure to check in and let someone know who he was and why he was there.

Did his appearance influence my decision? I HOPE NOT, because I'm not that person. There IS a good deal of tension in the public, right now, particularly in bigger Metro areas. My hope was to try to get companies dealing with the public to help out by being a bit more proactive . 

A "heads up" call, a company auto, logo shirt, or a ID TAG would have prevented this police call. The copier guys, the IT guys, the phone and cable guys all visit and ALL use electronic devices and cell phones from the parking lot. WHAT MADE THIS DIFFERENT AND SUSPICIOUS was that the tech did this BEFORE announcing himself and with NO credentials, identifying clothing or vehicle.

IMHO, this technician and his company added just as much to the hysteria as I.

Respectfully submitted.


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## studioso (Apr 23, 2013)

if you are stereotyping anyways, at least do it right:
bearded people wearing turbans are sikh, not muslim. they come mostly from punjab india, and they have as much to do with islam as you and me do.

here are some aspects of sikhism that you are likely to respect, from wikipedia:


> There are a number of religious prohibitions in Sikhism.
> Prohibited are:
> 
> 
> ...




besides, if last weeks event taught me anything, is that even seemingly normal, smiling, 19 years old kids can be evil.


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## Russianwolf (Apr 23, 2013)

I work in DC (for over 15 years). Lived on Capitol Hill during 911.

I refuse to treat people as the villain before they prove themselves to be one. 

If I die due to the acts of another, so be it. I refuse to live in fear.


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## alphageek (Apr 23, 2013)

studioso said:


> besides, if last weeks event taught me anything, is that even seemingly normal, smiling, 19 years old kids can be evil.



It took you till last week to learn this?   I thought all teens are evil in some way!!    (tongue firmly in cheek of course -  since i was a teen at some point long ago and have a teen of my own right now).


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## Scruffy (Apr 23, 2013)

*Could be from Hitchiker's Guide*

At the age of 13, Martians send the brains of their teens to grafted into the skulls of our teens. (They can't stand their teens.) They leave them their until the age of 22, at which time they are removed and our children return to normal.

The alien activities you see in some teens is to be expected of Martians.


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## Boss302 (Apr 23, 2013)

The biggest problem is Common Sense is being over shadowed by Political Correctness.  You have to go with your gut instinct on suspicious activities and error on the side of reporting them.  Let L.E. sort it out.  As long as you did what you did with true concern for public safety then you should be able to sleep fine at night even if you are criticized later.


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## CHARLES STOPCZYNSKI (Apr 23, 2013)

*41 years service technician speaks*

Penman,

Being that Eatonton used to be in my service territory way back when.
Where is there an office complex there?  

Remember, it was you who called for his services.

Take it FWW and laugh.  

Charlie


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## Russell Eaton (Apr 23, 2013)

I know Andy WELL. Rest assured that if he felt uncomfortable there was a reason. The copy repair man best be glad he called the police. That is all I have to say...from one redneck to another.


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## Displaced Canadian (Apr 23, 2013)

In my industry we are required to wear a uniform. We don't have to wear the whole thing, Hat, shirt, proper colored pants, jacket, name tag, and ID badge every day but if you are out of uniform the ID badge is required. If you are helping in an area that isn't your regular area we are required to wear full uniform with ID badge. We deal with the public, and have to go into someone's place of residence people just feel better when you look like you are a professional.


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## sbell111 (Apr 23, 2013)

PenMan1 said:


> Ed:
> I TOTALLY AGREE, the techs from India are THE BEST we have around here. My point was that COMPANY should be doing more to let us know that their personnel have a reson for being here. A company shirt, an ID badge, ANYTHING!



Even your backpedal is stereotyped.:laugh:


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## Russianwolf (Apr 23, 2013)

the big brother state works both ways.

Imagine. 

You are just getting into casting. You have some success and people want your blanks bad. You go and start buying resin in 5 gallon buckets. your neighbor sees these chemical buckets in your trash each week and calls the authorities cause he knows you are not a chemist. Suddenly all hell breaks loose. All because you are casting pen blanks.

innocent until proven guilty.


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## Russianwolf (Apr 23, 2013)

Displaced Canadian said:


> In my industry we are required to wear a uniform. We don't have to wear the whole thing, Hat, shirt, proper colored pants, jacket, name tag, and ID badge every day but if you are out of uniform the ID badge is required. If you are helping in an area that isn't your regular area we are required to wear full uniform with ID badge. We deal with the public, and have to go into someone's place of residence people just feel better when you look like you are a professional.



There have been reported crimes around here about people IN uniforms getting people to open the door and robbing them. A Uniform means nothing.


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## Displaced Canadian (Apr 23, 2013)

Very true. I can tell you from experience that if you look professional and cary a tool bag you can stand at the door of a controlled access building looking at the intercom and the next person through the door will let you in. I was once let into a building that the first floor was a battered women's shelter. Nobody asked what a man in his early 30's was doing there. I did work there, it was my first day at that building.


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## Scruffy (Apr 23, 2013)

*Question?*

Do you think they would have let you in if...

1) You were wearing a backpack.
2) You were wearing a baseball cap.
3) You were wearing a dark jacket.
4) You had long hair or facial hair.
5) You were nervous.
6) You were staring around.

I wonder


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## sbell111 (Apr 23, 2013)

PenMan1 said:


> Today, a young man with a turban and beard, carrying a back pack, was nervously pacing back and forth speaking in a foreign language on his cell phone, right outside the door of our office complex.
> 
> Suddenly this young man pulled an electronic device with a digital display from the back pack and started entering numbers as his voice grew louder on the cell phone.


With the exception of the turban and beard, I've been that person that you described.  I was speaking a foreign language because I was in Beijing and I don't speak Chinese (neither does the person that was on the other end of the phone).  None of their local 'rednecks' called the popo on me.


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## Russianwolf (Apr 23, 2013)

Displaced Canadian said:


> Very true. I can tell you from experience that if you look professional and cary a tool bag you can stand at the door of a controlled access building looking at the intercom and the next person through the door will let you in. I was once let into a building that the first floor was a battered women's shelter. Nobody asked what a man in his early 30's was doing there. I did work there, it was my first day at that building.



Yeah, I've seen this in secure military facilities also. Unless you have a guard at the door that is paying attention, people will let you in blindly. Witnessed several Captain's Masts for people letting "sliders" through in Texas and it was only a training station.

fact is, if someone wants to go somewhere, they most likely will find a way. Very little you can do to prevent it and in most cases they will look perfectly normal as they do it.


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## Jim Burr (Apr 23, 2013)

Boss302 said:


> The biggest problem is Common Sense is being over shadowed by Political Correctness. You have to go with your gut instinct on suspicious activities and error on the side of reporting them. Let L.E. sort it out. As long as you did what you did with true concern for public safety then you should be able to sleep fine at night even if you are criticized later.


 
I couldn't agree more. Tollerance and PC are getting a lot of people killed. As a vet of 23 years and still in government service and working in medicine, we must be alert to our surroundings, there is no option. DHS, HHS and FBI all tell us to be on alert whenever we go out in public. It's just the nature of the times and sticking our collective heads in the sand won't cure the problem.


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## Russianwolf (Apr 23, 2013)

Scruffy said:


> Do you think they would have let you in if...
> 
> 1) You were wearing a backpack.
> 2) You were wearing a baseball cap.
> ...



I carry a backpack every day. As do 90% of the people that take the train with me through Union Station, 2 blocks from the Capitol. 

Baseball caps, not me but others.

Dark Jackets? I wear a long raincoat most days until summer hits.

I wear a beard, and some of the guys have long hair (IT guys I think, a stereotype )

nervous and staring around. There are homeless guys walking through the station all the time. This is normal behavior.

The afternoon of the Boston murders there was no noticeable change in security. We have cops with machine guns in there at least twice a month when someone "imputant" .....er "Important" comes through. That day, nothing.


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## Displaced Canadian (Apr 23, 2013)

Scruffy said:


> Do you think they would have let you in if...
> 
> 1) You were wearing a backpack.
> 2) You were wearing a baseball cap.
> ...



I see your point and for the most part no they wouldn't. I was wearing a black hat, jacket, sunglasses, the tool bag hangs from a shoulder strap, and staring at the intercom like I was looking for a name. The thing that gets people to trust you is the work boots and the tool bag. Also if you act like you know what you are doing, people don't question you.


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## SerenityWoodWorks (Apr 23, 2013)

an uneducated white guy getting out of a pickup with a rebel flag window decal and a rifle in the back window wouldn't have turned a head....An educated man from India trying to work hard and live the American Dream scares the hell out of you because he has a back pack and a beard and is smart enough to know more than one language?


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## monark88 (Apr 23, 2013)

SerenityWoodWorks said:


> an uneducated white guy getting out of a pickup with a rebel flag window decal and a rifle in the back window wouldn't have turned a head....An educated man from India trying to work hard and live the American Dream scares the hell out of you because he has a back pack and a beard and is smart enough to know more than one language?



HUH?


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## JMCU (Apr 23, 2013)

I'm glad people try to look like what they want to be. What if everyone looked just alike then all you have is mannerisms and actions to determine if you should be ready to do something.


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## PenMan1 (Apr 23, 2013)

SerenityWoodWorks said:


> an uneducated white guy getting out of a pickup with a rebel flag window decal and a rifle in the back window wouldn't have turned a head....An educated man from India trying to work hard and live the American Dream scares the hell out of you because he has a back pack and a beard and is smart enough to know more than one language?



Maybe where you live it wouldn't have turned a head, but where I live that truck you described would never have made it into the parking facility. We simply DON'T put up with such nonsense. Security would have sent that vehicle on its way before it could park.

There are no restaurants, etc in this facility. You need a reason to be here. Security would have known EXACTLY THEIR BUSINESS BEFORE THEY EVER PARKED. Our sheriff puts up with NO NONSENSE. In fact, Sheriff Sills holds the record for getting evil people the longest prison sentences. He got Dwight Malichi York thousands of years in prison for child abuse. He ridden our area of a plague on society (they called themselves Nuwaubians), he helped to bring Westly Snipes to justice and again riddled our community of his survivorlist militia.

Maybe those people cause problems in your neighborhood. BUT IT DOESN'T HAPPEN HERE.OUR community demands civil interaction with each other, regardless of your beliefs or station in life.


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## PenMan1 (Apr 23, 2013)

And for the record....I speak 3 languages other than English, graduted magma cum laude MBA from a very fine business school, own two businesses, and was a Divisional Operations Manager for a Fortune 500 company. ONE of my favorite vehicles IS my 1988 Pickup truck (sans offensive flag, but including my legally permitted Glock 40 under the drivers seat).

I think perhaps you are confusing redneck with racist.

Respectfully submitted.


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## PenMan1 (Apr 23, 2013)

CHARLES STOPCZYNSKI said:


> Penman,
> 
> Being that Eatonton used to be in my service territory way back when.
> Where is there an office complex there?
> ...



Charles:
It's actually in Lake Oconee. LO has such a small number of full time residents that it doesn't get it's own Zip Code. The Lake covers 5 counties (all with different  zip codes) but this area is know as The Village. It's located across the street from the Ritz Carlton and the gated lake communities, near the Publix complex.

And NO we DIDN'T call for service. It was part of a maintenance agreement and the new copier company (until today, anyway) chose not to provide a courtesy call. I think the OLD copier company will be the NEW copier company, starting tomorrow.


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## Waluy (Apr 23, 2013)

SerenityWoodWorks said:


> an uneducated white guy getting out of a pickup with a rebel flag window decal and a rifle in the back window wouldn't have turned a head....An educated man from India trying to work hard and live the American Dream scares the hell out of you because he has a back pack and a beard and is smart enough to know more than one language?



As someone who drives an old beat up pickup with a rebel flag on it (although mine is a license plate that says "Pride not Prejudice") I can say if there was a rifle in the back window of someones vehicle who parked at my place of employment heads definitely would have turned. And anyone who walks around my place of employment either checks in BEFORE walking around so they have a visitors badge or someone calls the police because we are considered a secure facility due to working on government contracts. 

Also I believe the key behaviors that caused concern for Andy were the *combination* of the "*carrying a back pack*, was *nervously pacing* back and forth *and* speaking in a foreign language on his cell phone" , followed by pulling out an electronic device and growing louder (which I read as almost yelling).

I would like to think any one of these factors by themselves or even in a pair would not have caused the concern that all of them combined did. To me the nervous pacing would be the most concerning factor.


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## PenMan1 (Apr 23, 2013)

sbell111 said:


> PenMan1 said:
> 
> 
> > Ed:
> ...



Perhaps, I need to take continuing education courses in communication. THERE WAS NO BACK PEDDLE. if the same situation happens tomorrow, I'd make the SAME decision I made today. That won't be happening, because this company lost a very lucrative maintenance contract today for unprofessional behavior.

Secondly, there were 5 techs that service our equipment here. 2 are locals and graduates of the local technical school, these two guys are equally terrible techs. When they come out, we have to have service the next day. Steve, the guy with a heavy Brooklyn accent and matching attitude. A good tech, but always late!  Two Indian (brothers) techs that are always on time, do excellent work and leave the copy centers cleaner than they found them. Always polite, punctual and perform their duties efficiently.

If saying that the "Indian techs are the best we have here" is considered stereotyping, then I'm guilty as we always requested one of the brothers. I'm glad this company will be resuming our copier repairs!


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## PenPal (Apr 23, 2013)

As a Tech Services Manager for Rank Xerox in a former life in the 1960,s on you would be more impressed by us as we all Techs ie wore suits. I have a Muslim son in Law lives in the States has for ten years, no beard non aggressive but yes I fear some redneck other people whatever that is might get excited and knowing the careless few handling guns I fear for his safety and my daughters, her children. I spent 7 weeks in his country with them one time and I also understand what it means to be a foreigner there without their language. My daughter was fluent in his language in two yrs teaching, writing textbooks for a private school there for yrs she adapted well. For myself I pride me on being colourblind ie to race and creed however I am aware of your first thoughts and understand your concern.

My life partner my wife comes from a different planet Pluto and since I am from Mars life is quite exciting enough, thing to remember all of us in Australia including the Indigenous migrated here much like in America so forebearance is a given.

Kind regards Peter.


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## PenMan1 (Apr 23, 2013)

sbell111 said:


> PenMan1 said:
> 
> 
> > Today, a young man with a turban and beard, carrying a back pack, was nervously pacing back and forth speaking in a foreign language on his cell phone, right outside the door of our office complex.
> ...



If you were working in Beijing, I'd be willing to bet that you had "checked in", had visible credentials, an escort or SOMEONE HAD CLEARED YOU TO ENTER THE FACILITY.


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## Displaced Canadian (Apr 23, 2013)

The worst part is if he had just walked in and said who he was and why he was there all would have been fine.


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## TellicoTurning (Apr 23, 2013)

pwhay said:


> As a Tech Services Manager for Rank Xerox in a former life in the 1960,s on you would be more impressed by us as we all Techs ie wore suits. I have a Muslim son in Law lives in the States has for ten years, no beard non aggressive but yes I fear some redneck other people whatever that is might get excited and knowing the careless few handling guns I fear for his safety and my daughters, her children. I spent 7 weeks in his country with them one time and I also understand what it means to be a foreigner there without their language. My daughter was fluent in his language in two yrs teaching, writing textbooks for a private school there for yrs she adapted well. For myself I pride me on being colourblind ie to race and creed however I am aware of your first thoughts and understand your concern.
> 
> My life partner my wife comes from a different planet Pluto and since I am from Mars life is quite exciting enough, thing to remember all of us in Australia including the Indigenous migrated here much like in America so forebearance is a given.
> 
> Kind regards Peter.



Peter, Glad you posted, as I read through this I kept thinking that all of the  copier people that visited my office were always in white shirts, a tie and in fall and winter usually a suite coat.... I've commented more than once on the fact that they have to wear white shirts when working on copiers as the toner gets on everything and as a really fine powder marks well.  Anytime I changed toner cartridge, I had toner powder on my clothes, seemed like they never did ? 

And in my former life, I was an international shipping manager... I dealt with many different nationalities and never felt threatened... I was always fascinated to talk to them and learn about their country and cultures... I did a great business in Nigeria, China, Australia, Peru, Brazil, Venezuela, UK, all of Europe, Scandinavia (I actually export guns to Denmark - lots of permits and paperwork), oilfield explosives all over the world, South Africa was fun... (I could ship the explosives in, but not the detonation cord??)

I didn't travel extensively, but when I did, never felt anything but fascination for where I was... I wound up lost in Port of Spain, Trinidad and somehow wound up in a neighborhood that was considered the "bad" part of POS... everyone I saw was friendly, smiling and waving at me...(Maybe saying look at that stupid American, he's lost :biggrin... even when I made a bad turn and went to the wrong side of the road and almost collided head on with a police car, all I got was a smile and a "no-No" wave of the forefinger... :biggrin:


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## mikespenturningz (Apr 23, 2013)

It seems like we all have a responsibility to make ourselves known in this day and age. Terrorism knows well how to adapt and how to look seeming normal. If we see something that doesn't look right we need to speak up and call the authorities and let them handle it. If it doesn't feel right chances are it isn't. Let the authorities check into it and don't worry about being politically correct. PC is the doom of us. Extremist are just as problematic in both directions.


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## monark88 (Apr 23, 2013)

mikespenturningz said:


> It seems like we all have a responsibility to make ourselves known in this day and age. Terrorism knows well how to adapt and how to look seeming normal. If we see something that doesn't look right we need to speak up and call the authorities and let them handle it. If it doesn't feel right chances are it isn't. Let the authorities check into it and don't worry about being politically correct. PC is the doom of us. Extremist are just as problematic in both directions.




Intelligent thoughts, especially about being PC. Hopefully being PC will finally die out and we can get back to having meaningful dialog or in the very least a free conversation. But, it will take a while I would guess.

Russ


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## Russianwolf (Apr 23, 2013)

Waluy said:


> Also I believe the key behaviors that caused concern for Andy were the *combination* of the "*carrying a back pack*, was *nervously pacing* back and forth *and* speaking in a foreign language on his cell phone" , followed by pulling out an electronic device and growing louder (which I read as almost yelling).



Here's how I read it.

Person is told to go to A and service machine. They drive over, get out and get a call. They are trying to explain something to someone who just doesn't get it. He's walking back and forth as he tries and doesn't go in as THAT wouldn't be profession while he's on the call. Grabs whatever out to make sure he's explaining it right and starts telling them in a frustrated voice. 

Person comes out and confronts him. He explains. They call his company and they lose a contract.

I call it overreaction.


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## PenMan1 (Apr 23, 2013)

Russianwolf said:


> Waluy said:
> 
> 
> > Also I believe the key behaviors that caused concern for Andy were the *combination* of the "*carrying a back pack*, was *nervously pacing* back and forth *and* speaking in a foreign language on his cell phone" , followed by pulling out an electronic device and growing louder (which I read as almost yelling).
> ...




AND OUR COMPANY CALLED IT LACK OF PROFESSIONALISM. Because of the nature of the businesses in this location (banking, investments and real estate, etc, where many times large sums of cash are transacted -and we have 8 locations-all similar to this one), all visitors are required to sign in and be announced. 

The company who accepted these contracts KNEW the procedure, and yet, didn't honor them.

As one reply stated, all that had to happen was for the tech to sign in and let us verify him- problem over.

We just need service people that will do it the way we need it. Today just proved we hired the wrong company.


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## Russianwolf (Apr 23, 2013)

PenMan1 said:


> Russianwolf said:
> 
> 
> > Waluy said:
> ...



Did he come in? Did he have a chance to do so before you confronted him or was he on his call until you confronted him?


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## PenMan1 (Apr 23, 2013)

I DIDN'T confront him. After about 15 minutes of the pacing and the hand waving and the literal screaming into the cell phone toward the end, I followed our policy of alerting the police.


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## PenMan1 (Apr 23, 2013)

According to the other companies that own other facilities in the complex, it WAS the right call, as much as I hated making it and wondering if I was letting recent incidents influence my thinking.

As one business owner said " regardless of his reasons, the last thing we need is someone screaming and acting crazy at the entrance of our businesses".

The copier company didn't just lose our 8 locations, they lost the entire complex at this location.


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## Russianwolf (Apr 23, 2013)

So if he hadn't come in, how could he announce himself?


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## Smitty37 (Apr 23, 2013)

SerenityWoodWorks said:


> *an uneducated white guy getting out of a pickup with a rebel flag window decal and a rifle in the back window wouldn't have turned a head..*..An educated man from India trying to work hard and live the American Dream scares the hell out of you because he has a back pack and a beard and is smart enough to know more than one language?


I hope you don't really believe that....unless it's on a country road in hunting season some one would call the police before he got the door closed.


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## PenMan1 (Apr 23, 2013)

Russianwolf said:


> So if he hadn't come in, how could he announce himself?



By finishing his other business in the parking lot or in his car, until he was ready to enter the facility......JUST LIKE ALL OF THE OTHER VENDORS THAT PROVIDE SERVICES THERE DO IT!


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## PenMan1 (Apr 23, 2013)

At the end of the day, this forum has been very helpful. After reading the various posts, I'm confident that I made the right decision.

After reading the post about the rebel flag and the gun rack, I asked myself how I would have reacted had it been the occupant of THAT truck standing in the entrance carrying a backpack, screaming and seeming very agitated with an electronic device in his hand.

The ONLY thing that would have changed is that I WOULD NOT HAVE WAITED AS LONG to make the call.

I understand diversity and pride myself of being accepting of all groups. In the end, CRAZY IS JUST CRAZY! Regardless of how the package comes bundled.


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## Smitty37 (Apr 23, 2013)

If you are walking down the street and a big white dog comes out and bites you and runs off, and you need to find out if the dog had it's rabies shot, you don't stop people walking little brown dogs and ask them to present their rabies tag.

In short, the description of the most common terrorists world wide (not just in the USA) is what it is...it is not a steriotype...it is a fact.  If you want to find a alligator you don't look among the newts...if you want to find terrorists you don't look at little old ladies from Pasadena.  

We have in the name of "not Steriotyping" subjected 320,000,000 Americans and who knows how many foreign nationals to a great deal of inconvenience and expense at airports, office buildings and so forth all so we don't "single out" those who meet the criteria of most terrorists.  

My opinion is we'd all be safer and less harrassed if we stopped looking for beef in the cerial aisle and started looking in the meat section - even if that makes the cows a little uncomfortable.  Not everyone fitting the description will be a terrorist, but most terrorists will fit the description.  

I understand there is a website that keeps track and logs terrorist acts world wide in recent years by people fitting the description.   I can't vouch for the credibility of the site because I have not had a chance to check it out yet and see where their sources are so I won't go into it except to say that most of the acts they log are committed by the people fitting the "steriotype".

In my personal opinion, the biggest problem our nation faces is that "political correctness" is preventing our having honest debate and discussion of almost every major problem we face.  Which is why problems never get solved, always papered over or postponed.  It seems that every problem we face can't be discussed because somebody might be offended.


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## EBorraga (Apr 23, 2013)

PenMan1 said:


> *After reading the post about the rebel flag and the gun rack, I asked myself how I would have reacted had it been the occupant of THAT truck standing in the entrance carrying a backpack, screaming and seeming very agitated with an electronic device in his hand.*


 
Even in the great state of Kentucky, which the rest of the country consider Hillbilly's, this would be highly unlikely to ever happen.


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## Smitty37 (Apr 23, 2013)

EBorraga said:


> PenMan1 said:
> 
> 
> > *After reading the post about the rebel flag and the gun rack, I asked myself how I would have reacted had it been the occupant of THAT truck standing in the entrance carrying a backpack, screaming and seeming very agitated with an electronic device in his hand.*
> ...


Now that is steriotyping at it's worst...we all know that you folks get your feelin's all atatter and much prefer to be referred to as Mountain Williams.:biggrin::biggrin:

BTW one of my neices was married to a Kentucky McCoy decended from those of "Hatfield's and McCoy's" fame.


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## joefyffe (Apr 23, 2013)

monark88 said:


> PenMan1 said:
> 
> 
> > skiprat said:
> ...



"When will we stop apologizing for defending ourselves!?"  


THANK YOU!!!!!


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## joefyffe (Apr 23, 2013)

Smitty37 said:


> EBorraga said:
> 
> 
> > PenMan1 said:
> ...



Smitty:  When you spoke to Earnie about Mountain Williams, I only partially understand.  I can equate Mouintain to Hill, but I prefer HillJack and there's no way to get "Jack **** out of William!!!


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## Smitty37 (Apr 23, 2013)

joefyffe said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > EBorraga said:
> ...


Well what do you expect---you're from Indiana.:biggrin::biggrin:Used to listen to the Stump Jumpers out of WOWO Fort Wayne Indiana along with WCKY out of Cincinnati Ohio and WWVA out of Wheeling West (by God) Virginia......and you guys always thought you were only famous for Cicero being a favorite spot of AL Capone.


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## nava1uni (Apr 23, 2013)

vanngo5d said:


> It doesn't matter what ethnic. It should be everyone that works in the service industry needs to wear something to identify themselves and company, a call should also be placed when someone will be there or on there way.



I agree and also believe that companies should identify themselves.  It is courteous and good business so that people know who they are dealing with and can feel valued by being provided with courteous, responsible service.


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## SerenityWoodWorks (Apr 24, 2013)

PenMan1 said:


> SerenityWoodWorks said:
> 
> 
> > an uneducated white guy getting out of a pickup with a rebel flag window decal and a rifle in the back window wouldn't have turned a head....An educated man from India trying to work hard and live the American Dream scares the hell out of you because he has a back pack and a beard and is smart enough to know more than one language?
> ...


 

Where I live is 100 miles from you...Now let me get this straight....you trust your security to keep the white guy with a rebel flag and deer rifle out of your complex because your sheriff is so good, but the "middle eastern" guy got by security and was able to park and get out of his vehicle and walk around for 15 mins on the phone without being "sent on his way" as you say by the outstanding security. You also say "There are no restaurants, etc in this facility. You need a reason to be here. Security would have known EXACTLY THEIR BUSINESS BEFORE THEY EVER PARKED." Well if this is true, again how did this "middle eastern" man ever get in without some form of ID. He must of had ID and passed without issue. 


I also called a friend at the NSA, he helped me get a copy of the phone call this guy was on, its only his side but they did translate it from Hindi to English for us:

Yes Sir, I understand your copier is broke....Yes sir I will be there later today to fix that....Yes sir I understand this is important to you but I am also about to service another very important customer..Yes I understand you are from the same region in the world I am from but this does not make you more important than this customer, I have already passed through their security and parked, I am about to fix them and then I will be on my way to you....Well I am sorry you feel that way but you do  not have to call me names, please stop as this is upsetting me and I will be to your place of business in less than 2 hours. Well sir if you want to find someone else then go ahead, I am not leaving this customer without servicing them, they have been great customers of mine and I surely want to keep them happy...Good Day!


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## SerenityWoodWorks (Apr 24, 2013)

Smitty37 said:


> SerenityWoodWorks said:
> 
> 
> > *an uneducated white guy getting out of a pickup with a rebel flag window decal and a rifle in the back window wouldn't have turned a head..*..An educated man from India trying to work hard and live the American Dream scares the hell out of you because he has a back pack and a beard and is smart enough to know more than one language?
> ...


 
OMG what a small world your living in Smitty...try driving a little more south of the Mason/Dixon sometime, it will amaze you.


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## Smitty37 (Apr 24, 2013)

SerenityWoodWorks said:


> PenMan1 said:
> 
> 
> > SerenityWoodWorks said:
> ...


 Please forgive me if I'm wrong but I have to acknowledge that I doubt your word here.  Unless you are clairvoyant you would not have had the necessary information to even make such a request.


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## SerenityWoodWorks (Apr 24, 2013)

So stereotyping will help and stop crimes and terrorism?????? 

Timothy McVeigh (Killed 168 and wounded over 800 in theOkla. City Bombing) was US Army trained

Charles Wittman (Killed 17 and wounded 32 in From the UT tower in Austin Texas) Former US Marine 

Lee Harvey Oswald ( Killed JFK and a Dallas Police officer) Former US Marine

Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan (12 killed and 31 wounded at Fort Hood) Current US Army

and there are many many more...so by your logic we should start worring about all of our soliders??? come on...Our country is protected by very brave and good men in our military and a few bad apples should not stain what they do. But if we are going to stereotype then lets do it right...all military looking men with short hair, being trained to shoot by the worlds finest and living in the US should be stopped and questioned about what they are doing....You have got to be kidding..this isnt about stereotyping people that are likely to cause harm..its flat out racist.


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## SerenityWoodWorks (Apr 24, 2013)

Smitty37 said:


> SerenityWoodWorks said:
> 
> 
> > PenMan1 said:
> ...


 
 Ummm..Smitty it was Sarcasm.....meaning...you had no idea what the phone call was about......


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## Smitty37 (Apr 24, 2013)

SerenityWoodWorks said:


> So stereotyping will help and stop crimes and terrorism??????
> 
> Timothy McVeigh (Killed 168 and wounded over 800 in theOkla. City Bombing) was US Army trained
> 
> ...


 I did not say that you did.  What I said is if you want to stop terrorism you look for terrorists where you are most likely to find them.  

If most of today's terrorists (world wide) are highly religious, middle eastern males between the ages of 20 and 45 those are the kind of people you have to look among to find them.  That does not say that every person in that group is a terrorist, but practically every terrorist caught today is in that group.  

Looking at little old ladies from Pasadena is not going to help eliminate terrorist attacks, all it will do is a waste time and resources inconveniencing and embarassing little old ladies to give an appearance of not steriotyping.  Those resources could be better utilized doing other things and the little old lady could travel much more peacefully..  

Your analogy does not make sense 

Lee H. Oswald 50 years ago never considered a terrorist. 

Charles Whitman 47 years ago - no ties to any anti US organizations

Timothy McVeigh 18 years ago - no ties to any anti US organizations

Hasan 2 years ago and fits the "steriotype".

Everyone who disagrees with you is not a racist.


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## sbell111 (Apr 24, 2013)

PenMan1 said:


> Our sheriff puts up with NO NONSENSE. In fact, Sheriff Sills holds the record for getting evil people the longest prison sentences.


Ummmm, you know that Sheriffs don't sentence people to prison, right?


PenMan1 said:


> he helped to bring Westly Snipes to justice and again riddled our community of his survivorlist militia.


Wesley (Always bet on black) Snipes did three years for tax evasion.  The IRS went after him, federal prosecuters worked the case, and he was sent to a federal prison.


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## sbell111 (Apr 24, 2013)

Waluy said:


> Also I believe the key behaviors that caused concern for Andy were the *combination* of the "*carrying a back pack*, was *nervously pacing* back and forth *and* speaking in a foreign language on his cell phone" , followed by pulling out an electronic device and growing louder (which I read as almost yelling).


If those were the key factors, why did he lead with 'Middle eastern man' and 'young man with turban and beard'?

BTW, has there ever been a terrorist act in the US that was made by a man in a turban and beard?  Any Luby-style mass murders?  I can't think of a single one.


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## sbell111 (Apr 24, 2013)

PenMan1 said:


> sbell111 said:
> 
> 
> > PenMan1 said:
> ...



I wasn't working there, didn't check in anywhere except where there was a government checkpoint, and never had an escort (other than a paid driver one day).

It should also be noted that nothing in your post suggests that the man was anyplace that he shouldn't have been.  For all you know, he was agitated on the phone because he was trying to get someone to call to let their redneck, bigoted clients know that he was there so no one got crazed.


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## sbell111 (Apr 24, 2013)

mikespenturningz said:


> ... If we see something that doesn't look right we need to speak up and call the authorities and let them handle it. *If it doesn't feel right chances are it isn't*. ...


While I definitely agree that me all need to be more vigilant than we used to, I disagree with the bolded part.  This thread is the perfect example of some mundane situation that didn't 'feel right'.  The OP is hyper alert because of the Boston bombings and is apparently seeing a terrorist every time someone from the middle east pops up on his radar.  That doesn't make these people terrorists.


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## JMCU (Apr 24, 2013)

The bottom line to all this is nowhere to be found.  Your legislatures are sitting up there on their fat … paychecks trying to figure out how they can make their next million off the pork they attach to what should have been a good law while worried to death they might make some potential voter mad.  They would rather create a new law making it illegal to own a pressure cooker than face the reality that we have people among us that would kill simply because they want to.  You think pressure pots for casting would escape the jurisprudence of that law, I doubt it. Vote all these communist back in and watch your constitutional rights disappear.  And don’t even get me started on Hollywood and their ill perceived notion of the Star Trek universe.  Invest in martial arts.  I know this going to get deleted but if I don’t say it who else will.


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## SerenityWoodWorks (Apr 24, 2013)

I love the way people bypass history when it suits them....So again using YOUR logic, Only people commiting crimes recently with anti US organizations backgrounds should be stereotyped? Not calling anyone racist..Calling the act of alerting the police on a man that passed through a security check (by the own mans admission) a racist act.

Using another topic...I guess by your way of stereotyping, all old men with grey hair  that are priests or overly religious should be stopped and asked if they are child molesters?????

This isnt about being PC its about making life alot harder on a person because of how they look, their beliefs or where they are from just because a few bad apples cause problems. Its this we as Americans are better than the rest of the world thinking that causes the hard feeling with these other countries that lead to people hating Americans and seek to hurt us.


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## sbell111 (Apr 24, 2013)

PenMan1 said:


> Russianwolf said:
> 
> 
> > Waluy said:
> ...


According to the OP, he was 'outside the door of your office complex'.  Presumably, your rules don't require visitors to sign in and be announced until they actually enter your 'office complex'.  

If it were me, I would have done exactly what you are upset with that guy about.  I would have finished my call and then came in.  Of course, I'm a white guy so I likely would not have had to explain myself to the police.


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## sbell111 (Apr 24, 2013)

PenMan1 said:


> Russianwolf said:
> 
> 
> > So if he hadn't come in, how could he announce himself?
> ...


So I'm driving to a business.  I arrive and park my car.  I exit the car and walk toward the entrance when my cel rings.  It's my wife, so I answer it.  It's a stressful call, so I can't get off the phone immediately.  My choices are as follows.  1) return to my car to have the conversation, 2) enter the building whilst on the phone, or 3) finish my call and then enter the building.  The only scenario where I don't take option three is if it is raining.


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## sbell111 (Apr 24, 2013)

Smitty37 said:


> If you are walking down the street and a big white dog comes out and bites you and runs off, and you need to find out if the dog had it's rabies shot, you don't stop people walking little brown dogs and ask them to present their rabies tag.


Your analogy isn't apt because the OP wasn't on the look out for a specific brand of terrorist, or at least he shouldn't be since the average wacko killer in his area is not the bearded, turbaned twentysomething.

The only way your analogy works is if you have never been bitten by a dog but are wary of being bitten because others not necessarily in your area have been.  Still, you only consider the white dogs to be a threat.


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## PenMan1 (Apr 24, 2013)

sbell111 said:


> PenMan1 said:
> 
> 
> > Russianwolf said:
> ...




And if you had done that, here, today you would be just as fired as the guy who acted "insane" at a customer's location. You'd be fired whether you are white, green, pink, black, brown, yellow or red.

Turns out that I wan't the only company concerned about this guy AND apparently he has a history of erratic behavior and yesterday was the "last straw" for his company. Too bad one angry person cost his company SO MUCH MONEY.

The COOL part of recognizing and embracing diversity is that THE RULES ARE THE RULES-regardless of color, race, religion, sexual preferences, etc. Nobody gets "special" treatment.


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## sbell111 (Apr 24, 2013)

PenMan1 said:


> sbell111 said:
> 
> 
> > PenMan1 said:
> ...



I'm not clear on what 'rule' he broke.  Talking on a cel while turbaned?


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## Russianwolf (Apr 24, 2013)

The title of this thread isn't "Wear a company shirt" is it?



If you define terrorism narrowly then yes, mostly middle eastern men are the focus.

I don't define terrorism narrowly. I include things like the DC sniper, The Columbine shootings, The Anthrax attacks, the Current Ricine attacks, The Atlanta Olympic bombing, the Colorado Theatre shooting, The Newtown shooting. All of these event instilled America with a sense of Terror. they are all acts of Terrorism regardless of the motives of the perpetrators. 

The DC Snipers were two Black people. All the others I listed were White people or remain open with white suspects.

And McVeigh was a known Anti-big gov militia supporter/sympathized.


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## Justturnin (Apr 24, 2013)

I would just say this.  You never know how you will react in a situation until you are in it.  It's easy to say "this is how I would handle it" but when you are in the shoes of the person living it, things change.  Suddenly it is your hide that you are protecting.  When you are getting nervous or even scared all your PC rational goes out the window and self preservation takes the lead.  I love to hear folks with no formal training w/ a beer in their hand say that if they were there the story would be different, all I can think of is that there would have just been one more casualty.  I would love to say that if I were in this situation I would have followed the 27 steps to successful conflict resolution but it would be more likely that I could have done the same thing.  All he did was observe, in his honest opinion, erratic behavior and called someone that was trained to handle it to look into it.  Would you prefer that he approached the person himself?

I would also like to note as the OP mentioned, he followed company procedure for this.  He was not flying by the seat of his pants.


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## PenMan1 (Apr 24, 2013)

sbell111 said:


> PenMan1 said:
> 
> 
> > sbell111 said:
> ...



The "rule" he broke was not signing in immediately upon arrival. As to which LAWS he broke, I'm not sure which ones. IF you want to find out, just go stand in the foyer of your local bank, wearing a backpack and coding into a mobile electronic device while screaming into a cell phone. I'm sure the local authorities will have a sizable list prepared BEFORE the FBI even arrives.


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## OKLAHOMAN (Apr 24, 2013)

Lets get back to pen making ,has anyone made a pen in the last day or so.


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## Russianwolf (Apr 24, 2013)

one last thought.

The ones acting suspicious and erratic, screaming into cell phones are most likely not the ones you need to worry about. 

It's always the quiet ones (another stereotype).


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## PenMan1 (Apr 24, 2013)

OKLAHOMAN said:


> Lets get back to pen making ,has anyone made a pen in the last day or so.



I agree! Sorry for the diversion!


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## BradG (Apr 24, 2013)

Think il just smile and leave my comment there I think


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## sbell111 (Apr 24, 2013)

PenMan1 said:


> sbell111 said:
> 
> 
> > PenMan1 said:
> ...


Do you honestly believe that 'yelling' into a celphone while wearing a backpack breaks federal laws?  I suppose that local constabulary could cite you for disturbing the peace, but even that is a stretch and likely wouldn't hold up (unless, I suppose, you were wearing a turban in Georgia).


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## sbell111 (Apr 24, 2013)

Russianwolf said:


> one last thought.
> 
> The ones acting suspicious and erratic, screaming into cell phones are most likely not the ones you need to worry about.
> 
> It's always the quiet ones (another stereotype).



Agreed.  Also, the middle eastern, radical Muslim terrorist is likely going to act like he's Joe Blow Baptist from Kansas.


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## monark88 (Apr 24, 2013)

SerenityWoodWorks said:


> So stereotyping will help and stop crimes and terrorism??????
> 
> Timothy McVeigh (Killed 168 and wounded over 800 in theOkla. City Bombing) was US Army trained
> 
> ...


 

And you should know that there were Red Flags on all these you list. Ignored by all, probably out of a fear to avoid stereotyping. Let someone else deal with the potential problem, 

Anyway, I have found this discussion to be a good one. Its seemed almost everyone was courteous in their replies. Its good to disagree, but respect the other guy's opinion, right or wrong. At least I have.

On with pen making stuff.

Russ
*
*

otyping.


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## wolftat (Apr 24, 2013)

I have a beard. I carry a black backpack. It has been said that I can be extremely unfriendly. I speak several foriegn languages, and do so on the phone often. I wear a baseball cap. I look around alot. I have scared a lot of people with my actions. I have spent about 20 years traveling all around the Middle East.

What does this make me??

I am a retired Marine and a current LEO.


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## Smitty37 (Apr 24, 2013)

SerenityWoodWorks said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > SerenityWoodWorks said:
> ...


Jason, I was driving around with a gun in the back window of my Pickup Truck before you were even a gleam in your daddy's eye.  For awhile I also had a rebel flag on my radio antenna although I was never sympathetic to the Southern Cause. I think the south was as more right than wrong at the time of the Civil War but I also think it was a good thing for all of us that they lost the war.

I have probably spent as much time in SC as you have in DE. By the way I live East of the Mason Dixon Line and cross it regularily. Delaware is sort of divided between being "southern" and "northern" and I live in the Southern half I think that every one knows that the Mason and Dixon Line is not the division between the North and South, Maryland is NOT a Southern State. I have spent some time in every state that was a part of CSA except Mississippi and Louisiana and a lot of time in a couple of them.

I am neither a redneck, nor uneducated and I was driving my pickup with the gun in the back window (although sometimes it was my fishing rod) in the State of New York and the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania and I was doing it before it was considered a sign of being a Southern redneck. 

But, if you're driving around with a gun in the back window of your pickup truck (assuming you have a gun and a pickup truck) I would steer shy of Columbia and Charleston unless I wanted to have a chat with the local constabulary.  My sister lives in North Charleston and if she saw you driving in her neighborhood with a gun in the window of your pickup truck I guarantee that she would call the cops.....


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## alphageek (Apr 24, 2013)

Ok... 

Way to much battling, half-way personal attack type comments - and I'm just downright sick of having to monitor this crazy thread for politics and personal attacks so I'm closing it down... 

If your not happy with that, I'm sorry but like a couple people above said - how about some more penturning thread activity.

Dean
Asst Mod


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