# Compare Finishes??



## GregHaugen (Jan 20, 2009)

I'm "new" to pen turning but not woodturning. I know there's as many different finishes as there are woodturners using them. I'm curious about what people prefer to finish with between these three choices? Is the application ease the reason you choose it or the durability?

~Behlen's Woodturner's Finish-properly applied

~Enduro (What sheen level? if you're using the Poly)

~CA

Also, are there any materials or applications where you wouldn't use the finish?

thanks for the feedback.


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## rjwolfe3 (Jan 20, 2009)

CA - hardest, shiniest finish but most difficult to get perfect, quickest finish
Enduro - good finish but not the shiniest - also have to wait longer for it to dry
Behlen's - not long lasting but easy finish to apply


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## mrcook4570 (Jan 20, 2009)

I have used all three and use CA on almost every wood pen that I make.

Enduro - very durable and can be buffed to a glass like shine although it does not enhance the color of the wood quite as much as the other two, very low odor, requires sanding/buffing to achieve smooth surface and high gloss, ease of application is same as CA but requires a couple of minutes for each coat to dry and requires several hours of curing time before it can be sanded/buffed, requires sealer and topcoat.

CA - very durable and can be buffed to a glass like shine, requires sanding/buffing to achieve smooth surface and high gloss, noticeable odor which some find offensive or irritating, steepest learning curve of the three but very easy once mastered, dries quickly (especially with the use of accelerator) and can be sanded/buffed immediately

Behlens - Not very durable, quickest to apply, does not require sanding/buffing (although I would recommend buffing lightly to remove rings around the pen), can achieve semi gloss with proper surface prep, but falls short of being able to produce a mirror like reflection of which the other two are capable, very distinct odor but not offensive or irritating, great for Christmas ornaments and small boxes

For pens, the finish that I use must be durable.  After that, time required for application is the next criterion.  So, that leaves me with CA as my finish of choice.  I would choose any durable finish, regardless of time required, over Behlens or any friction polish.  Durability is that important to me.


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## mdburn_em (Jan 20, 2009)

I don't believe CA is the hardest.  Russ Fairfield did a test of the finish hardness in his video (or one of his video's) on pen-turning where he did a fascinating test on the hardness of various finishes that can be used.  Lacquer, shellac, ca, enduro (I'm thinking that was the hardest but I honestly don't remember.) as well as friction polish and no finish.  

Russ is like the old EF Hutton commercial.  When Russ talks, everybody listens....

There are a number of video segments of his in the library.  I'm not sure if that particular segment is there or not.  I purchased his video from AS and I'm very glad I did.  Maybe he'll chime in here on the hardness.  

If you do an advanced search using the finishing forum and Russ Fairfield as the poster, you should get several, very informative posts.


Penturners want results NOW!!!  I think that's one of the big reasons that CA is so popular.  Combine that with an extremely hard finish and the ability to give the pen a "wet-look" finish, well, I think that's the reason its so popular.

Most other finishes wear off.  At least that's what I hear.  I know that the friction polish finish of the pens I did, did not last.  Of course, you did use the term "properly applied".  I'm self taught in everything I've done with these blasted things so there is reasonable doubt.

I've tried the Enduro.  Maybe if I witness someone who knows what they're doing apply it, I can see what I did wrong.  I didn't like the results I got.


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## spiritwoodturner (Jan 20, 2009)

For me, exactly what Rob said, in that order. 

I would say that, for me, CA was tricky to learn, but mainly thanks to Don Ward's patient, informative help, I've got it wired. And once you DO have it wired, you can do it with a blindfold on. 

But Greg, I would try them all. Who knows, you may be the one to come up with something new that all of us will be using someday! And have fun.

Dale


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## GregHaugen (Jan 20, 2009)

mrcook4570,

Enduro Question,

I understand the sealer, I'm assuming a good choice would their sealer for the product.  What "top coat" though?  Are you talking about a Ren. Wax or TSW or an actual "finish" topcoat?

Dumb question I know, just wait you'll find out I'm full of them.  :biggrin:


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## mrcook4570 (Jan 20, 2009)

The enduro system is two parts - one is the sealer and the second is the poly (top coat).


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## hewunch (Jan 20, 2009)

plexiglas is faster for me than CA. And easier to get right and not chip off when breaking loose the bushings.


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## foneman (Jan 20, 2009)

*plexiglas*



hewunch said:


> plexiglas is faster for me than CA. And easier to get right and not chip off when breaking loose the bushings.



Lots of plexiglas questions? I did a search but found more on stabilizing with plexi than finishing.
How thick of a mixture is your plexiglas? Is it watery, like pancake syrup, or honey? I have some soaking in acetone for the the past 2 days and think I have too much plexiglass in the solution. How long does it take your mixture to disolve? How long do you wait between applications? Do you apply it like CA?

Thanks,
John


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## hewunch (Jan 20, 2009)

foneman said:


> Lots of plexiglas questions? I did a search but found more on stabilizing with plexi than finishing.
> How thick of a mixture is your plexiglas? Is it watery, like pancake syrup, or honey? I have some soaking in acetone for the the past 2 days and think I have too much plexiglass in the solution. How long does it take your mixture to disolve? How long do you wait between applications? Do you apply it like CA?
> 
> Thanks,
> John



My mix in the can is thick like honey. But when I put it in my bottle to apply it I thin it down more with acetone so it is between thin and med CA. It takes about 1 week to completely dissolve based on temps and such. Just give it time and add more acetone from time to time.
Here is my process of application
1. I start on the bushings and go through the other bushing.
2. I wick the solution on (not press like I do CA)
3. 1 pass, reload (top to bottom or bottom to top = 1 pass, not both ways). You can use the same piece of towel for the whole process unless it dries.
4. I alternate passes
5. 5 passes and check it. Turn off the lathe, look at it, give it a few seconds.
6. 20-25 passes total
7. take the blank bushings and all off the lathe when dry ~2 minutes or so, the finish should not wrinkle when you touch it (touch on the bushings)
8. cut the glass with a razor on the bushing near the blank but not on it
9. carefully work the bushing out
10. trim excess with razor
11. if your finish lifts at the edges take thin ca and wick it in (this hides many an OOPS)
12. Put the bushings back on and buff. (I usually start with 400 grit or 1500 mm)


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## foneman (Jan 20, 2009)

hewunch said:


> My mix in the can is thick like honey. But when I put it in my bottle to apply it I thin it down more with acetone so it is between thin and med CA. It takes about 1 week to completely dissolve based on temps and such. Just give it time and add more acetone from time to time.
> Here is my process of application
> 1. I start on the bushings and go through the other bushing.
> 2. I wick the solution on (not press like I do CA)
> ...




WOW, thanks for all the details!! I look forward to giving it a try as soon as my plexiglas is disolved and a little thicker.

John


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## ironhorse (Jan 20, 2009)

Could you explain what you mean by wick the solution on.
Thanks


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## RussFairfield (Jan 20, 2009)

The test I used the "Pencil Hardness Test" which is the hardest sharp pencil lead that WILL NOT sratch the surface of the finish. This has been an accepted test for finishes for about 200 years. Here are the results in order from hardest to softest on a scale of pencil hardness. 

All were done with the same wood (Pacific Yew), and all finishes were given 14-days to cure before testing. 

9H+ Solid Plastic
9H+ Stabilized Wood (with acrylic)
7H   Enduro (over thin CA as hardener and filler)
5H   CA Glue
4H+ Waterlox (soaked for 1-hour)
3H+ Deft Lacquer
2H   Shellac

2B   Bare Wood

I did several other finishes, and some of them were a surprize - such as the Minwax Polycrylic which was softer than shellac. 

Although it is a lot harder than the bare wood, I was surprized how poorly the shellac performed. I expected better. But it did move up a notch to be the equal of Deft Lacquer after sitting for another 4-weeks, and I expected this to be the case.

Oil finishes such as Watco Danish Oil were no better than Shellac, but all of the oils that have polyurethane resins added were similar to the Waterlox which has phenolic resins.  

I don't always agree with everybody on Enduro. I have found Enduro to give a nice color and accent to the wood grain, and because of this it adds an excellent chatoyance to those woods that have the grain for it. It that respect it is equal to the Waterlox. As applied it will not have the same gloss as some of the other finishes, but waiting 2-weeks, and then using a buffing wheel with White Diamond, will take care of that problem.


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## Verne (Jan 20, 2009)

A question about the plexiglas: 
how does it cure? 
is it the process of the acetone evaporating out after application that allows the plexi to "re-harden"?
Can one of our resident chemists explain?
Tnx
Vern


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## skywizzard (Jan 21, 2009)

I had some Plexiglas mixed but had been reluctant to try.  I used Hans method and the results were great.  THANKS!


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## jamiller99 (Feb 5, 2009)

Vern,

Plexiglas (or polymethyl methacrylate) does not cure.   When you buy pieces of it, it is already in its "finished" state.  When the solvent dries (usually acetone), you are left with the Plexiglas in film form on your substrate, as you describe.  

John




Verne said:


> A question about the plexiglas:
> how does it cure?
> is it the process of the acetone evaporating out after application that allows the plexi to "re-harden"?
> Can one of our resident chemists explain?
> ...


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## kirkfranks (Feb 5, 2009)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *hewunch* 

 
_My mix in the can is thick like honey. But when I put it in my bottle to apply it I thin it down more with acetone so it is between thin and med CA. It takes about 1 week to completely dissolve based on temps and such. Just give it time and add more acetone from time to time._
_Here is my process of application_
_1. I start on the bushings and go through the other bushing._
_2. I wick the solution on (not press like I do CA)_
_3. 1 pass, reload (top to bottom or bottom to top = 1 pass, not both ways). You can use the same piece of towel for the whole process unless it dries._
_4. I alternate passes_
_5. 5 passes and check it. Turn off the lathe, look at it, give it a few seconds._
_6. 20-25 passes total_
_7. take the blank bushings and all off the lathe when dry ~2 minutes or so, the finish should not wrinkle when you touch it (touch on the bushings)_
_8. cut the glass with a razor on the bushing near the blank but not on it_
_9. carefully work the bushing out_
_10. trim excess with razor_
_11. if your finish lifts at the edges take thin ca and wick it in (this hides many an OOPS)_
_12. Put the bushings back on and buff. (I usually start with 400 grit or 1500 mm)_



Does Plexi have a cold temp limit like CA for a finish?


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## redfishsc (Feb 11, 2009)

Most likely not, Kirkfranks. 

However, cold temps may drastically increase the amount of time it takes to cure b/c the whole process requires the acetone to evaporate. Not sure HOW long it might take, but I don't think it would be too big of a deal. 


Now, all that said. I am a big fan of more "satin" finishes rather than high gloss. 
You can spray open-grained woods like red oak, zebrawood, and wenge with satin conversion varnish. The CV cures up much harder than lacquer and has INSANE chemical resistance. Once at a full cure, even acetone only barely messes with it--- only barely.

Conversion Varnish is very hard to find if you aren't a cabinet maker, and decidedly more dangerous to spray, so don't do it in a garage. But if you want to try it, call around to hardwood distributors or even Sherwin-Williams. Be sure to ask instructions!
Most of them are a 10:1 mixture of varnish/catalyst, so you can easily mix up 10 teaspoons of CV and one teaspoon of catalyst, toss into a cheap airgun (metal pot, not plastic pot) and airbrush on 5-8 thin coats, letting it tack over in between but NOT reaching a dry state.


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