# "Kitless" Kits



## Texatdurango (May 24, 2012)

It's a fact that going "kitless" will require certain taps and dies to cut threads for pen bodies, caps and finials where some sizes are dictated by the multi-start taps used or the size of fountain nib feeds used.  Along with those taps and dies come certain size bits which are required to drill the proper size holes.  

Almost every day someone is posting asking which size bit or tap to buy and wondering where is the best place to buy a few bits.  One of the better sources for quality tools has a minimum order of $25 so that often kills a good deal.

I got to thinking about this last night and came up with an idea.

*What if......* A member (me) got together a list of the bits, taps and dies that one will certainly need to start making their own creations, put the tools together with written instructions as to how, when and where the tools are to be used then package everything together and offer them as a "Kitless" starter kit? 

My thinking is that a lot of folks could place one order, get exactly what they need, pay shipping once without facing minimum price orders rather than a little here and there and eliminating a lot of time guessing at sizes and why they are needed.

The more expensive "large and small" multi-start tap and die sets are  already being offered by Mike Redburn so would not be included in these  kits, but just about every other bit and tap that would be required would be.

This would be a fairly sizable investment and my time and money so before doing this I would like to get a feel of how many, if any would be interested in such a kit?

If enough interest is shown, I'll buy the tools, create and print out the instructions then place an ad in the classifieds.


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## Andrew_K99 (May 24, 2012)

I think it is a great idea!  For me though, I am in the midst of ordering bits and pieces and would likely not bennefit from it.

Where would it stop on what is included?  Would it include a die holder and tap guide?  How about a metric drill bit set?  Or collet chuck and collets?  All required if you want to get into kitless.  Would you get taps for all feed brands or just one?

As the options are so great a good chart/tutorial on what size taps/dies to get for a certain pen size would be great!  The information is out there, but finding it isn't easy.  The problem might be that some might not agree on which is the correct size.

Good luck!  I'll be interested to see what comes out of this.

AK


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## Justturnin (May 24, 2012)

What type of Cost would one be looking at?  I ask because if I can afford it I will pick it up now to help you recoup your upfront costs and put it to the side with the rest of the materials I am purchasing for this future endeavor.
I also know zero about what is needed and have not begun to research it yet.  Do you have a list of what you expect the kit to include?


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## Dalecamino (May 24, 2012)

A little late for me, but a great idea. I'm fairly certain that it would help many people I've seen post comments like, "someday" or "I haven't got to that stage yet" Good thinking George. Must be that mountain air :biggrin:


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## Texatdurango (May 24, 2012)

I haven't sat down yet and gone through exactly which taps, dies and drills would be included.   As far as the sizes go, I realize everyone has their own ideas,  I would be relying on my own experiences of making hundreds of  kitless pens of different sizes and types (bulb fillers, button fillers, eye droppers and conventional converters) since early 2008 and all the trial and errors that I went through before finding just the right sizes and thread pitches that work best for me.

Off hand, I'm guessing that there would be around a dozen bits, half a dozen taps and a few dies.  I hadn't thought of tap and die handles but I shouldn't assume that everyone already has them so might consider including them as well.

As far as offering *everything* required to go kitless, I have to draw a line somewhere, else I'll be making a deal with Jet so I can offer their mini-lathes as part of the kit! :wink:  Let's just consider this to to be the "drilling and tapping" kit, which is about 80% of making a kitless creation .


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## Dalecamino (May 24, 2012)

Right. A basic start up kit to make it more affordable. I'm interested to see what you get worked out.


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## SteveG (May 24, 2012)

I hope this works. I am in for the "experience based" starter kit. Great idea. I am right on the cusp, about to take the plunge!


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## Tabascocat (May 24, 2012)

I would be interested in such a kit


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## Chasper (May 24, 2012)

I would buy it.


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## TerryDowning (May 24, 2012)

More interested in a tutorial or listing of the taps, dies, and drills as I have several already.


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## SteveG (May 24, 2012)

I would like to add to my previous post. This is an example of the HUGE benefit to being a member in IAP. This offering, if it goes thru, would likely not be a big profit enterprise.  It is far more a nice benefit for those who partake. So I hope this works, and thank you George, for putting it out there (here).

Steve Guzy


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## dennisg (May 24, 2012)

I would be interested.


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## Smitty37 (May 24, 2012)

*Be Careful*

I admire your courage..... 

The best advice I can give you is to figure on doing it one time and making up just enough sets to meet the immediate demand and perhaps a few to have in case someone else comes along later.   That will be more then enough work.


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## Justturnin (May 24, 2012)

Smitty37 said:


> I admire your courage.....
> 
> The best advice I can give you is to figure on doing it one time and making up just enough sets to meet the immediate demand and perhaps a few to have in case someone else comes along later.   That will be more then enough work.




I agree, and if the price is w/in my immediate budget I would put the money upfront to help w/ the initial cost.


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## RDH79 (May 24, 2012)

You can count me in.I was going to start kitless this fall. 
And as a few others have posted I will pay ufront also.
Rich H.


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## RetiredJake (May 24, 2012)

Count me in


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## toddlajoie (May 24, 2012)

I would be in, depending on the price range...


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## LabTrnr (May 24, 2012)

I also think it's a very good idea, especially for those like me that are a bit intimidated but intrigued by kitless pens.


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## Carl Fisher (May 24, 2012)

Depending on the target price, I'm in as well.  I've been trying to pick through posts and figure out exactly what you are proposing.  Already have everything else in place.


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## Mapster (May 24, 2012)

I think it is a great idea! I would be in as well if I hadn't made a few of my recent purchases. That would help immensely because kitless isn't impossible, and if you already have the tools and there is a decent tutorial to follow, anyone could do it!


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## beck3906 (May 24, 2012)

I would be in depending on cost.


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## keithbyrd (May 25, 2012)

I will take one!  I am researching and trying to develop a list of stuff needed.  I will pay up front to help offset your outlay.


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## Gilrock (May 25, 2012)

I was thinking about something like this when I first started researching what to get for going kitless. I'm already fairly well outfitted so I don't think I'd be able to buy one.

My idea was instead of offering everything you need to do several shapes and sizes...I think a beginner would benefit from buying a kit that had everything to do one preset size kitless. Like maybe all the parts necessary to make the section from you're tutorial. 

This is my thoughts for a starter kit (going from memory on these drill bit sizes):
- Instructions similar to you're section tutorial but include the whole pen...
- 3 sets of 5mm nib/feed/housings
- 3 converters
-3 roller ball clips (the inner diameter of these clips fits perfect over the threads produced from the 9 x 0.75mm tap below)
- "A" size drill bit to go through entire section
- 6.4mm drill bit for converter hole (or supply a 0.252 reamer) 
- "L" size drill bit for housing
- "P" size drill bit for 8.2mm hole to tap for 9 x 0.75mm section threads
- 12mm die for cap threads (I use triple tap so not sure which standard size pitch to use here)
- 12mm tap for inner cap threads
- 9 x 0.75mm tap for inner body threads to receive section
- 9 x 0.75mm die for exterior section threads
- Tap for 5mm housing threads

You would also need a few drill bits to bore out the cavities inside the cap and body so either provide them or call out standard sizes that would work.


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## obone (May 25, 2012)

*kitless kit*

I would be very interested as well What a great idea!!


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## jeweler53 (May 25, 2012)

I am right at that point now! If I can afford it I would definitely buy such a kit. I am not interested (at the moment) in making my own nib feeds and would be buying them. If you had a list of who sells what and the sizes it would also help.

Dick


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## InvisibleMan (May 25, 2012)

I would have loved a super small kit that would make a pen with correct dimensions, etc.  I figured it out from reading, asking questions and piecing the puzzle together, but I still feel like I got lucky.  

A simple M12 x .75 tap and die for the cap, M9 x .75 tap and die for the section, 8.2mm drill for the barrel, 11.2mm drill for the cap, and whatever drill and tap needs for the section, and I'm good.  Now I understand what all the measurements mean and I can intelligently pick tools I need to do what I want going forward.


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## DestinTurnings (May 30, 2012)

I would love to start making "kitless" pens. I appreciate the technical skill and work in them and if someone put forth the effort to get me started with a "one stop shop" starter kit, I would immediately invest in the required components.

Dave


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## pensbydesign (May 30, 2012)

i would be interested


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## cnirenberg (May 30, 2012)

George,
That's a great idea.  A list of supplies and tutorial would be perfect for the starter along with which plastics and other materials are good/better/best to use.  You may want to just offer that and where all the tools/materials could be found, that way the initial cost to you (taps, dies, tool holders etc.) wouldn't burden you financially.  Just a thought.


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## sumterdad (May 30, 2012)

I'm game.


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## Timebandit (May 30, 2012)

While i think this is an OK idea, i also see some downsides. The main one would be turning "Kitless into a Kit". The whole reason why i started doing component-less was because there werent any kits or instructions. There wasnt anyone telling me to use this tap here and to use this drill bit for this size tap. There was no one telling me what to do and when. My pens are different than everyones on here(not talking about looks, but about the way i make them). Why, because i didnt want to do it just like someone else. I wouldnt have gone this route if there had been "Kitless kits" back then. It would have been a huge turn off for me to just be able to buy the same ol kit that everyone else bought that had the exact same things in it with the exact same instructions. Now i know that some just want to jump in and be able to do it without the trial and error and main learning process of all of this, but i think that is what makes you learn more and really figure it out. If Eagle were here now he would be turning in his shoes. He would tell everyone to go figure it out and then come tell him how YOU did it and maybe you will have a better way then him. Also, il be honest, while i use some of what George uses, i also use others that he doesnt. Eveyone has a different way of doing things and likes to use differnt sizes of diferent things. This kit will set you in one direction. If you want to go another, then you might have some items that you wont use anymore and others that you still have to buy because they werent in this kit. This is not rocket science guys. This stuff is very simple to figure out and ALL of this information is already on IAP, you just have to make an effort to find it. There is also not one way that is set in stone to do this. Different size bits for the same tap, different tenon sizes for the same die. Just like the other day someone was asking why i used certain size bits while someone else used other size bits, and asked which way was the right way. Were both right, there is no right and wrong with this stuff. Its all up to interpretation. Just look at the many kitless tutorials in the IAP Library and you will see just how many different ways people do this. Back when George did his first tutorial, he left out this information for this very purpose, to let you figure out what works for you since there is no one way to do it. Not trying to discourage anyone from participating in this, just giving a different side to it all. I hope that all that are interested in this still go through with it and i look forward to seeing some great pens. 

Respectfully and sincerely

Justin


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## Texatdurango (May 30, 2012)

Good Grief!

I don't understand how trying to help a few members save a few dollars on tools would get others so worked up!

To those expressing interest, I am sorry but after more consideration, this would be a bit much to handle at this time.


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## Smitty37 (May 30, 2012)

*Hmmmm*



Timebandit said:


> While i think this is an OK idea, i also see some downsides. The main one would be turning "Kitless into a Kit". The whole reason why i started doing component-less was because there werent any kits or instructions. There wasnt anyone telling me to use this tap here and to use this drill bit for this size tap. There was no one telling me what to do and when. My pens are different than everyones on here(not talking about looks, but about the way i make them). Why, because i didnt want to do it just like someone else. I wouldnt have gone this route if there had been "Kitless kits" back then. It would have been a huge turn off for me to just be able to buy the same ol kit that everyone else bought that had the exact same things in it with the exact same instructions. Now i know that some just want to jump in and be able to do it without the trial and error and main learning process of all of this, but i think that is what makes you learn more and really figure it out. If Eagle were here now he would be turning in his shoes. He would tell everyone to go figure it out and then come tell him how YOU did it and maybe you will have a better way then him. Also, il be honest, while i use some of what George uses, i also use others that he doesnt. Eveyone has a different way of doing things and likes to use differnt sizes of diferent things. This kit will set you in one direction. If you want to go another, then you might have some items that you wont use anymore and others that you still have to buy because they werent in this kit. This is not rocket science guys. This stuff is very simple to figure out and ALL of this information is already on IAP, you just have to make an effort to find it. There is also not one way that is set in stone to do this. Different size bits for the same tap, different tenon sizes for the same die. Just like the other day someone was asking why i used certain size bits while someone else used other size bits, and asked which way was the right way. Were both right, there is no right and wrong with this stuff. Its all up to interpretation. Just look at the many kitless tutorials in the IAP Library and you will see just how many different ways people do this. Back when George did his first tutorial, he left out this information for this very purpose, to let you figure out what works for you since there is no one way to do it. Not trying to discourage anyone from participating in this, just giving a different side to it all. I hope that all that are interested in this still go through with it and i look forward to seeing some great pens.
> 
> Respectfully and sincerely
> 
> Justin


 I'm not really interested in getting into 'kitless' so I don't have any "axe to grind" here Justin, but don't you think maybe that those who are really interested in "rolling their own" will advance from the starter kit and go on to bigger and better things?  

I think maybe a lot of guys and gals will have never used a tap & die set in their life among other things - first they want to learn how to do many of the thing you do to make a kitless.  Once they've done that they'll learn other methods of doing the same thing.....I think.


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## Timebandit (May 30, 2012)

Smitty37 said:


> Timebandit said:
> 
> 
> > While i think this is an OK idea, i also see some downsides. The main one would be turning "Kitless into a Kit". The whole reason why i started doing component-less was because there werent any kits or instructions. There wasnt anyone telling me to use this tap here and to use this drill bit for this size tap. There was no one telling me what to do and when. My pens are different than everyones on here(not talking about looks, but about the way i make them). Why, because i didnt want to do it just like someone else. I wouldnt have gone this route if there had been "Kitless kits" back then. It would have been a huge turn off for me to just be able to buy the same ol kit that everyone else bought that had the exact same things in it with the exact same instructions. Now i know that some just want to jump in and be able to do it without the trial and error and main learning process of all of this, but i think that is what makes you learn more and really figure it out. If Eagle were here now he would be turning in his shoes. He would tell everyone to go figure it out and then come tell him how YOU did it and maybe you will have a better way then him. Also, il be honest, while i use some of what George uses, i also use others that he doesnt. Eveyone has a different way of doing things and likes to use differnt sizes of diferent things. This kit will set you in one direction. If you want to go another, then you might have some items that you wont use anymore and others that you still have to buy because they werent in this kit. This is not rocket science guys. This stuff is very simple to figure out and ALL of this information is already on IAP, you just have to make an effort to find it. There is also not one way that is set in stone to do this. Different size bits for the same tap, different tenon sizes for the same die. Just like the other day someone was asking why i used certain size bits while someone else used other size bits, and asked which way was the right way. Were both right, there is no right and wrong with this stuff. Its all up to interpretation. Just look at the many kitless tutorials in the IAP Library and you will see just how many different ways people do this. Back when George did his first tutorial, he left out this information for this very purpose, to let you figure out what works for you since there is no one way to do it. Not trying to discourage anyone from participating in this, just giving a different side to it all. I hope that all that are interested in this still go through with it and i look forward to seeing some great pens.
> ...



Agreed and i hope that George still does it and that all still participate.


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## Carl Fisher (May 30, 2012)

I fall into that category of tap and die impaired.  I understand the concept and would look to a matched set like this as a jumping off point to get started with enough correct pieces to make a complete pen and then modify to my liking after I understand the mechanics and math around choosing the right drill bit and threading sizes.


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## Justturnin (May 30, 2012)

Texatdurango said:


> To those expressing interest, I am sorry but after more consideration, this would be a bit much to handle at this time.



Well, that makes me sad.  Wish I knew more about this I would try take it up.


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## Smitty37 (May 30, 2012)

Texatdurango said:


> Good Grief!
> 
> I don't understand how trying to help a few members save a few dollars on tools would get others so worked up!
> 
> To those expressing interest, I am sorry but after more consideration, this would be a bit much to handle at this time.


 Can't fault you for seeing that - it would be a lot of work for very little return.  There seems to be a market but pulling it all together would be a bear of a job.


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## joefyffe (May 30, 2012)

George:  I would be interested, except I've already got "everything" I need, until I get up in the morning.   Seriously, with what I have from R/C days as well as what I've bought since getting involved with pens, I don't think it would be a benefit to me, but for someone just going into kitless!!!   WOWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!  Do it if it's feasible.


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## jeweler53 (May 31, 2012)

I still want to get one!!!! (and I am sure a lot of others would as well). 

How about one tap and die for the cap, and on die for the feed, + 3 feeds (front sections). 

I get to expand my skills. 
I get to give you money.
I get to make stuff I couldn't before.

I am sorry this ended this way!!!

Dick


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## mredburn (May 31, 2012)

It has not ended yet, I have talked to Indy Pen Dance and they will put together a kit if George Decides not to at this point. They are at  a pen convention and will keep in touch as they can.


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## IPD_Mr (May 31, 2012)

Mike - Thanks for the heads up on this and where it is/was heading.  If George no longer wishes to do this, then I will get with him on his thoughts and try to proceed from there.



Carl Fisher said:


> I fall into that category of tap and die impaired. I understand the concept and would look to a matched set like this as a jumping off point to get started with enough correct pieces to make a complete pen and then modify to my liking after I understand the mechanics and math around choosing the right drill bit and threading sizes.


 
Carl - This was what I though the whole idea was about.  This can be done with basically two tap and die sets and a few drill bits to get peoples feet wet and understand and learn the basic priciples.  Even the cap threads could be a single start to keep the cost down for those that want to try it.  If they feel their endevours are worthwhile and want to switch to a triple start down the road then they would not be out a lot of money if they felt otherwise after trying.

As Mike mentioned we are at the Triangle pen show so it will be next week before we can get anything together if we go forward with this.


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## Carl Fisher (May 31, 2012)

Yup, I was hoping that was the case and was partially addressing the feeling that making a kitless kit defeated the purpose.  I think it actully kick starts the process without having to waste money on mis-matched parts to get started and even see if it's something that a turner wishes to continue with.

Thank you to those who are willing to help out like this!


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## OKLAHOMAN (May 31, 2012)

George,Mike and Linda and I have been in contact with each other and it looks like one of us at least will be able to supply a TOOLING SET to you that will get you started on the road to component-less pens.


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## Andrew_K99 (May 31, 2012)

I think this is a great idea based on Georges vision of a sole source for kitless tooling.

The only problem I can see is figuring out where to stop.  Supplying just the taps, dies and drill bits doesn't fit the bill IMO as owning these isn't enough.  You also need a means to hold the taps (tap guide) and dies (die holder) both of which I've only found in MT2.  Then you need a means to hold the pieces on the lathe, a collet chuck or maybe a regular chuck.

Bottom line?  You need a lot of tooling to go 'kitless', a sole  for all this tooling may not be practical.

A well thought out list of essentials, in one location, would be a FANTASTIC start!

AK


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## Texatdurango (May 31, 2012)

OK, Here's the deal............ After receiving a reply from one tooling company on possible discounts, I found that they were not capable of supplying 20 ea of the bits, taps and dies I had envisioned so I decided this was not going to be an easy task, especially for one like me who is on the verge of flitting about the country for our summer trip.

It looks like others thought this is a good idea too and have stepped up to make it happen and actually, these guys have the experience and contacts to probably do a better job than I ever could so hold tight, the cavalry is on it's way! 

In keeping with the theme and purpose of this thread, there are still a few things to be worked out.  My original intent was to make it easy for one wanting to venture into kitless pen making by making *some of the essentials* available at one source, thus saving members from having to shop all over the web, paying WAY too much in shipping at half a dozen companies.

That said, some folks already have tap handles, some even have die holders and some have a decent assortment of drill bits BUT.... some don't have anything yet so the thinking is to create a few levels of tool sets like "just the basic stuff", "just about all you'll need" to "everything but the kitchen sink (which is an option by the way).

I'm sorta out of the loop now and will slip over on the sidelines but I want to say a few things that are bugging me.

The way I see it, if you like the idea of buying a handful of tools at one place knowing exactly how the tools will be used and how they interact with each other then speak up, which several already have _*BUT..... *_*if you don't like the idea then just don't respond, this thread is to gather information and gauge interest from those interested in the idea.

*If you have some radically different ideas of how we forum members should try to work together to help each other (or to NOT help each other) for some reason, then start your own thread and hash it out or bash whatever floats your boat rather than trash up this thread.

The notion that it takes a ton of money to "go kitless" is absurd and I don't understand why some are so intent on squashing the creativity of others by telling them they need a small fortune to make their own pens from scratch or that they are so difficult to make!  I made my first kitless pens a year after starting to make pens, way before buying my metal lathe and still do 76.325813% of my pens on my Jet mini lathe with most of the same tools I used for kit pens!

That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it! :tongue:


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## InvisibleMan (May 31, 2012)

Texatdurango said:


> OK, Here's the deal............ After receiving a reply from one tooling company on possible discounts, I found that they were not capable of supplying 20 ea of the bits, taps and dies I had envisioned so I decided this was not going to be an easy task, especially for one like me who is on the verge of flitting about the country for our summer trip.
> 
> It looks like others thought this is a good idea too and have stepped up to make it happen and actually, these guys have the experience and contacts to probably do a better job than I ever could so hold tight, the cavalry is on it's way!
> 
> ...



George, kudos to you for starting this thing off!  If a kitless kit of tools comes together, it will be of huge value to the community.


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## TerryDowning (May 31, 2012)

I like the idea of just "the basic stuff" I don't have the metrics taps, dies and drill bits and really can't justify the cost of buying an entire set of metric drill bits.

I have the tap handles, die holders, etc. I just need to round out what I have to take my  pen making to take it the next level.

Of course final interest would depend on the final prices determined for the sale. If too expensive, I'll just continue to "make do".

just my 2 pennies. Overall this is a fantastic idea and I'm glad to see some traction on it.


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## lorbay (May 31, 2012)

InvisibleMan said:


> Texatdurango said:
> 
> 
> > OK, Here's the deal............ After receiving a reply from one tooling company on possible discounts, I found that they were not capable of supplying 20 ea of the bits, taps and dies I had envisioned so I decided this was not going to be an easy task, especially for one like me who is on the verge of flitting about the country for our summer trip.
> ...


I 2nd that.

Lin.


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## mredburn (May 31, 2012)

It would be very easy to set up a beginers kit with different levels of hardware. As well as doing it ala cart for those that already have some of the items in the kit.


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## Carl Fisher (May 31, 2012)

I'd be in for matched sets of taps/dies/drill bits and whatever is needed to actually hold them (die holder, tap handle)


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## RetiredJake (Jun 1, 2012)

Carl Fisher said:


> I'd be in for matched sets of taps/dies/drill bits and whatever is needed to actually hold them (die holder, tap handle)



Same for me.


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## dbledsoe (Jun 1, 2012)

Carl Fisher said:


> I'd be in for matched sets of taps/dies/drill bits and whatever is needed to actually hold them (die holder, tap handle)




Me, too.
Dave Bledsoe


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## carbon1 (Jun 1, 2012)

*Count me in too ...*

I really like the original idea of a 'kitless kit' which has now evolved to several levels, depending on need.  I have been ready to begin the journey into kitless pens for about 6 months and am now ready to start and this would be a terrific place for me to begin!   Guys with experience here: Please, put something together.     And count me in.

Bill 
Rochester, Minnesota


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## bitshird (Jun 2, 2012)

George, I have a triple lead tap and Die12mm? and one feed tap I believe it's for the old Heritance feeds, but I'll be darned, I've wanted to do a pen and have had the taps for over a year, I do need the drills, and would be interested in getting the right drills and a tap for the Bach a 5 and 6 size nibs, so put me down since all I would have extra is a tap for Lou's size 5 (still don't have a drill for that) count me in.


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## scoobiehome (Jun 2, 2012)

I'm interested. Would love to attempt kitless pens, but am a novice!


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## Displaced Canadian (Jun 2, 2012)

I think the tool kit should be very basic to keep cost down. Just wondering what would most people be willing to pay for this? I'm working on round 2 of kitless pen it is amazing how little you really need to go kitless. It would be nice to not have to waste a lot of money buying a lot of tools that you won't need. I do think this is a good idea because it would save people money.


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## alinc100 (Jun 3, 2012)

I too would be interested in a "starter" set of tooling for kitless pens.in fact I found this thread while trying to find another of George's threads that began to layout some of the steps,sizes,parts to how he makes his kitless pens.
 I don't have boatload of cash to throw at this but like the idea of a one stop shopping trip.
Like George had stated one can tie up a lot in shipping costs that could purchase tooling if it was done efficiently.
 It appears I am on a construction project that should have a good run so I try to stock up for when the lean times hit and I actually have more time to make pens.
Thanks to All involved for this idea/project.I realize it is a lot of work.I know for sure I can benefit from your willingness to share.


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## beck3906 (Jun 3, 2012)

If the idea of a kit of parts is too expensive, what about creating a list with the various sizes of taps, dies, drill bits, etc that are needed for each piece? The list could include suggested suppliers for us to go after.

The list could be genereated and maintained much like the list for tube sizes/kit components.

I would just like to have a consolidated list of the things that work.  I can order my own parts if I know what works.

I know I can research prior posts and find much of the onformation, but we ask the same questions numbers of times.  Why not make it easy for those joining in the future?


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## Timebandit (Jun 3, 2012)

beck3906 said:


> If the idea of a kit of parts is too expensive, what about creating a list with the various sizes of taps, dies, drill bits, etc that are needed for each piece? The list could include suggested suppliers for us to go after.
> 
> The list could be genereated and maintained much like the list for tube sizes/kit components.
> 
> ...



It has already been done. Not sure who did it, but there is already a list out there, might even be in the library already. The problem is that no one knows where to look for it or no one wants to look for this stuff, so they just post a new thread asking. Maybe there could be a sticky in the Advanced Pen forum with a link to it.

Edit: Here you go http://www.penturners.org/forum/f56/tap-die-threading-sizes-etc-91861/

It needs a little work, but here is a beginning. Just need some more input in it.


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## Texatdurango (Jun 3, 2012)

beck3906 said:


> If the idea of a kit of parts is too expensive, what about creating a list with the various sizes of taps, dies, drill bits, etc that are needed for each piece? The list could include suggested suppliers for us to go after.
> 
> The list could be genereated and maintained much like the list for tube sizes/kit components.
> 
> ...



Rick, I'll give my replies to a few of your comments.  Don't get upset over the answers, they are general in nature, meant for all those folks asking the questions and not directed at you.  

_"I know I can research prior posts, but" _I see the word "Research" all the time and think it sounds like a LOT of work, when it really isn't.  Just spend an hour reading through some of the posts in the advanced pen making forum on threading and kitless construction.  Also, recently when members put up a "kitless" pen in the SOYP forum several are starting to add a few details like taps and drills used as well as other dimensions.  Read these posts and jot down notes.  I'm all about helping others and Lord knows I do my share but look at my side as an example.  I spend hours a week answering PM's, many of which are asking the same questions over and over.  I don't know about others but if I can spend several hours a week answering PM's, then y'all (the ones with the questions) can invest an hour or two yourselves of easy reading!

_"we ask the same questions numbers of times"_ That's just it, the SAME questions are being asked over and over and over, which tells me no one is taking the time to read through any of the threads.  I don't know about others but I've come to the point where if I read a thread that starts out ...... "What drill do I use for the 9mm x .75mm tap", I click out of the thread when I reach that far because that question has been answered hundreds of times in the past few months.

If you are interested in advancing your penmaking adventure, then spend some time reading what others are doing.  In my tutorials I deliberately leave out some detailed measurements and sizes.  My thinking was that it gets the pen maker to stop and think and teach himself as he goes along thus learning, and YES, there WILL be som trial and error but that's part of the adventure.  But, based on the number of PM's I get starting out like... "I just read one of your tutorials, But...", I am beginning to think that hardly anyone wants to invest any time whatsoever.
_
"Why not make it easy for those joining in the future?__"_ May I read into that.... why not make it easy for *us*? :biggrin:  You think you have it bad, I started making these things four years ago and believe me, other than Bruce Robbins, Bruce Boone and a couple others there was no one to ask anything.

Anything worthwhile is worth putting some effort into.

Just my opinion...........


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## beck3906 (Jun 3, 2012)

I have no problems with the responses to my questions.

I often play "dumb" and ask questions probably thought by dozens of folks who are afraid to ask.  These questions linger in many different forms in people's minds.

Sure, I can research the questions and find what I need to know.  But I also get frustrated when the search results show dozens of threads that have some form of the search word with no bearing on what I want to know.  I experience this same frustration on my permanent job when told to search our on-line help for the problem before asking help from a programmer.  I learned something in Boy Scout Leader training about using your resources.  There are thousands of resources here to pulll from.

Can I spend hours reviewing previous threads for the help?  Yes, I can.  Would those hours be better spent if I can get you to search for me?  Yes, they would.  :biggrin:

BTW....
Thanks Timebandit for the message link.  I had forgotten that thread.  Sometimes it helps getting things in front of folks again.  You're right in that the thread could be a sticky.


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## MrWright (Jun 4, 2012)

Put me down on your first list of "Kitless Kits"


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## Bowl Slinger (Jun 4, 2012)

Im interested.


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## InvisibleMan (Jun 4, 2012)

deleted - sorry!


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## Dalecamino (Jun 4, 2012)

Did I miss something? I haven't read all the posts in this thread, but I KNOW it started out as a Market Research by George, then I saw Gilrock posted a list of tools he uses, then, Mike & Linda were going to take over upon there return home from a pen show. And now there's a link to InvisibleMans thread, showing what tools he uses for kitless pens. 

I think I'll wait to see what Mike & Linda come up with, if George has decided to hand it over. It just makes sense to me, to get everything in one place.


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## Texatdurango (Jun 4, 2012)

dalecamino said:


> Did I miss something? I haven't read all the posts in this thread, but I KNOW it started out as a Market Research by George, then I saw Gilrock posted a list of tools he uses, then, Mike & Linda were going to take over upon there return home from a pen show. And now there's a link to InvisibleMans thread, showing what tools he uses for kitless pens.
> 
> I think I'll wait to see what Mike & Linda come up with, if George has decided to hand it over. It just makes sense to me, to get everything in one place.


George has already decided to see what Mike and Linda can come up with to satisfy the needs of those venturing into designing and making their own pens.

I've noticed that several have posted saying something similar to...."here is what I used to make THIS pen" and while I can appreciate the thought, I think they are missing part of the point to offering a tool set.

Having the four or five bits and two or three taps required to make one pen is fine if you want to make that same pen over and over again just changing the blank material but......... What happens when you decide to make a little larger pen or try a different size nib and section or try your hand at a nice bulb filler, button filler or lever filler for a change, then what?  You'll start searching all over again for the one or two different taps you'll need at the time then hope you have the proper drill bits for those taps then you get to start ordering bits and pieces all over again paying $11.95 postage here and $15 postage there and before you know it, you're out another $50 in postage alone just buying small tools!

There is a lot more involved than just having the tools to do just one pen!  When a friend wanted to start turning pens did you show him the smashing Jr Gent rollerball you made and tell hem that all he needed to turn pens was two drill bits and one set of bushings?  Going kitless is similar, there will be different tools required, similar to having a collection of bushings, one for each kit you make.


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## trapper (Jun 7, 2012)

I agree with ll that Texatdurango says. I have just begun doing kitless pens ranging from those based on cross refils and twists to rollerballs incorporating throwingdart bodies and rollerball and fountain pens. I have now started doing my own nib carriers etc in aluminium........ its along learning curve.......... first lesson is the tooling needed varies infinitely with infinite designs when i get good enough i'll post some pics


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## Gilrock (Jun 7, 2012)

Well I know when I started it took a lot of research on here to figure out what to get just to make one.  If you can supply a starter kit that can make more than one and keep the entry cost down then go for it.  At least someone else starting out can look at my earlier post and already be further ahead of the game than I was.


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## crabcreekind (Jun 8, 2012)

remember for dies, people need to get a die holder.


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## dogcatcher (Jun 9, 2012)

One stop shopping is worth it, the shipping charges for all of the places can be a killer.


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## Katya (Jun 10, 2012)

Count me in too!  I'd love to go kitless but don't know exactly where to start.  Don't have any tap or die experience.  I'd be interested in the whole kit with some instructions, but I don't see that as stifling my creativity.. just helping me to get started.
Cheers
Catherine


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## earl smith (Jun 15, 2012)

Yes, I am very interested and also would like to have a ballpark of the costs


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## mredburn (Jun 15, 2012)

Cost? As Carl Sagan would say "Billions and Billions"


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## keithbyrd (Jun 16, 2012)

this thread was started almost a month ago and has 4 pages of comments - I for one (second post) am very interested in this starter package that George described.  George is this still something you are doing or has it been handed off?  Are Mike and Linda doing it?  Don't mean to be too pushy but I am anxious to jump into this area and don't want to waste a lot of money and time on a learning curve if I can avoid it!!


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## Timebandit (Jun 16, 2012)

keithbyrd said:


> this thread was started almost a month ago and has 4 pages of comments - I for one (second post) am very interested in this starter package that George described.  George is this still something you are doing or has it been handed off?  Are Mike and Linda doing it?  Don't mean to be too pushy but I am anxious to jump into this area and don't want to waste a lot of money and time on a learning curve if I can avoid it!!



Keith, i dont think this thread was intended to lessen the learning curve. I beleive the purpose of this thread was just to save a few bucks on shipping charges. This wont tell you how to make a pen or what to do and what not to do.......if your ready now, you can get started now.....only gonna lose a few bucks on shipping charges....


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## SteveG (Jun 16, 2012)

I too am about to plunge into the "subvortex" of kitless. If there is anyone about to grab the reins on this project, I (and a good number of others, as shown by interest in this thread) would be most appreciative. Either way, I am in, as I have just thrown away my vast collection of kits. (Well, maybe not on that throw away thing...)
Steve


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## Marker (Jun 16, 2012)

I would buy a kitless kit.


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## leehljp (Jun 16, 2012)

IF it is not too late, I would be interested in purchasing a basic set of what ever most decide upon. I have a couple of tap and die sets already but not die holder. I have purchased over the years just waiting to get back home and get started in this very thing. I am home now but I am still a year away from getting started with kitless. Looking forward to seeing what you guys come up with. 

I missed this thread somehow, but I was traveling quite a bit in late May and early June.


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## jzerger (Jun 19, 2012)

I'm interested in attempting kitless so would be very interested in a "starter set".  Until 15 months ago I didn't know what a lathe was or that you could make a pen.  If it hadn't been for PSI having a "starter set" including lathe, tools, kits, sandpaper, finish, everything I needed to start I would've never attempted to try to piece together from reading what others say I need and getting them one piece at a time all over the place and hope I have it all.  Lazy? maybe... starting from zero knowledge (i.e. zero confidence in a new venture) and not willing to invest much money in a possible failed venture is not an easy thing for me to do.   Since then, I've evolved into a believer in CA finishing wood and made numerous pens from numerous materials and spent a few thousand dollars on additional (pricier...up to $30 kits) and tools from numerous vendors mostly based on advice here.  Until I felt like I achieved some success (my standards) with the (for a lot of you) basics I then and only then started thinking about what ELSE can I do..."knots", inlay, modified kits, segmented, other materials, etc. that I have gleaned from this group.   

Is all the information already out there? ...of course.
Euclid, Newton, Gauss, Leibniz, Galois, etc. wrote down hundreds (even thousands) of years ago most of what I teach students.  I made most every mistake when I was learning and try to shorten the learning curve for my students so they can spend time thinking about what ELSE can we do.  

Those of us who haven't been here for very long don't KNOW what's already been tried, done, perfected and so often ask seemingly stupid questions that have been asked (and answered) dozens of times before.  
Believe it or not, it isn't always laziness that causes people to ask questions already been discussed ad nauseum previously.  And we all DO appreciate very much the kind (non-condescending) answers, links, references, given to us.  PSI still gets a lot of business (I'm guessing) due to "starter sets".  The first "kitless kit" will be a seller...can't wait.


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## IPD_Mr (Jun 19, 2012)

I have looked this over from several different angles.  The idea is for a starter tool set to get the average turner the tools needed to go kitless.

Here in lies the problem:  What kind of kitless.  Some have no desire to make fountain pens but would like to make rollerballs.  This requires a major change in drill bits.  The other part is going to be the cap threads.  To keep things cheap you would want to start with single start threading.  The closest size to the thriple start standard size cap threads is the M12 x .75.  The other issue is drill bits.  If I do this the bits will be Norseman if I can get the right size.  Norseman are not cheap bits.  So now I am at a crossroads.  Do we want to do this right or are we just trying to do this cheap and dirty?  One other issue is getting the popular M9 x .75 tap and die sets.  I run through four sources and buy everything they have in stock every thirty days or so.  That generally gets me about 4 sets a month to work with for the cheaper sets.

So what does everyone want to do,  Cheap and Dirty, The Right way or Something Different?


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## Justturnin (Jun 19, 2012)

I would think instead of selling 1 "Kit" you would sell matching sets.  Now I nothing about kitless so I may be way off but I see it like this.

Say you want to do a Bock 6 Nib (is that right) and the feed is a certian thread and so the cap should be a certain size (based on your experience) Then you should have a Bock 6 Nib Set that consists of Bit A, Tap A and Die A

Then maybe an End and Finial set that consists of Drill B, Tap B, Die B.

Now with these 2 sets you can make a pen w/ a Bock 6 Nib.

Then say I want to try a Bock 5 (?) Nib all I need is to buy the Bock 5 set and I already have the End and Finial set unless I want to make them bigger then maybe you could offer a couple of flavors of End and Final sets.

Then you can have a Roller Ball kit that fits the El Grande or whatever kit most people use to do this.

Now I may be way off but I think this would make it easier to provide while giving the choice to the buyer.  Your goal, I think, is to give an option to begin and maybe you can grow your options as the demand grows.


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## SteveG (Jun 19, 2012)

IPD_Mr said:


> ...So what does everyone want to do,  Cheap and Dirty, The Right way or Something Different?



Mike, I am among those interested in the "Unkit". My thoughts are that most interested in this will tend toward the "Right way" option, and select Fountain Pens as the desired type . A formal poll would help clarify, and also give a better feel for how many are actually interested in participating.

Steve Guzy


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## leehljp (Jun 19, 2012)

For me, I want to do this "right" from the beginning. I prefer to go with FP but RB is OK too. IF you do both, I will probably go both, if not cost prohibitive.

I am not there now but I am about to get there for kitless.


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## studioso (Jun 19, 2012)

as someone who has done a handful of kitless pens and is constantly buying pieces and tools here and there, I'd like to offer my opinion: I don't think it makes any sense to offer one size fits all kitless kits: there are so many ways to do a kitless and there are so many tools that you will have to assume your customer has but actually needs and vice versa.
what WOULD be nice to see is a single place where ALL the odds and ends for kitless can be purchased in one stop.
for example, when I decided that a 10x1 tap in my barrels left a shoulder that was too thin and cracked too easy, and decided to try a smaller tap, I had a hell of a time pouring through IAP and the library to see  what other common  smaller tap might work. then, when I figured that 9x.75 might be a better fit, I had an even bigger nightmare trying to source the part (especially since I'm in canada).

so what I'm saying is that it would be nice if I can find all these odd sizes INCLUDING A .252 REAMER FOR SITTING THE CARTDRIDGE in one location, possibly with a typical application tutorial.

this I believe would make more sense for an existing vendor who also sells bock stuff and even kits etc.


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## jimofsanston (Jun 19, 2012)

I would be interested also in this start up package. It seems it would be a great starting point for me and then i can go on my own. This would be just to get a better understanding of the process of what is involved in going kitless.


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## IPD_Mr (Jun 19, 2012)

Because of this thread and mentioning the M9 x .75 we have sold out of that size tap and die.  I have contacted all of my sources that sell this tap and die at a reasonable cost and have been told that there are none in country and that they are not on order.  They are all looking at next year if at all for this set.  Actually I have taps but no dies in country.  (yes I have even bought out all the 1-1/2" dies I could find as well)  You can buy this size on ebay from China for about $12 shipped.  These are non-adjustable dies.  This size is the critical size for me when it comes to the section to body connection.  Until I can secure a large quantity of this die at a reasonable price, this idea will be on hold for me.


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## Carl Fisher (Jun 19, 2012)

:frown:


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## jd99 (Jun 19, 2012)

Amazon has M9 x.75 taps and dies, for those that really really need them.

Amazon.com: 9mm X .75 Metric HSS Left Hand Thread Tap M9 X 0.75mm Pitch: Home Improvement

So does another vendor....


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## Timebandit (Jun 19, 2012)

jd99 said:


> Amazon has M9 x.75 taps and dies, for those that really really need them.
> 
> Amazon.com: 9mm X .75 Metric HSS Left Hand Thread Tap M9 X 0.75mm Pitch: Home Improvement
> 
> So does another vendor....



The Amazon one is Left hand threads. I dont think its needed that badly.


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## jd99 (Jun 19, 2012)

Timebandit said:


> jd99 said:
> 
> 
> > Amazon has M9 x.75 taps and dies, for those that really really need them.
> ...


They have right hand also

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0..._m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=0YX3A6X9MT837AGBJF7D


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## Timebandit (Jun 19, 2012)

jd99 said:


> Timebandit said:
> 
> 
> > jd99 said:
> ...



But the taps arent whats needed, its the dies.


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## Andrew_K99 (Jun 19, 2012)

As Mike noted M9x0.75 dies can be found on ebay, most are not split dies though.

M9x0.75 die | eBay

AK


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## jd99 (Jun 19, 2012)

Timebandit said:


> jd99 said:
> 
> 
> > Timebandit said:
> ...


 
Amazon.com: 9mm X .75 Metric Right Hand Thread Die M9 X 0.75mm Pitch: Home Improvement


And my other vendors do have the dies, just pointing out they are out there all ya gotta do is look. Both Split and solid


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## Timebandit (Jun 19, 2012)

jd99 said:


> Timebandit said:
> 
> 
> > jd99 said:
> ...



Gotcha, i wasnt actually searching for them, easy enough for everyone else to do, just following your links.


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## IPD_Mr (Jun 19, 2012)

They are also carbon not HSS. Huge difference.  And they are not adjustable.


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## jd99 (Jun 19, 2012)

IPD_Mr said:


> They are also carbon not HSS. Huge difference. And they are not adjustable.


And do a search, my machine shop supplier has HSS and in stock, like I said both split and solid, I doubt everyone has to wait til next year....


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## mredburn (Jun 19, 2012)

HSS Metric Round Split Adjustable Dies - Round Dies | MSCDirect.com


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## IPD_Mr (Jun 19, 2012)

Well Danny since you seem to know where everything is maybe you should take this one, cause I am done with it.  Cheers


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## studioso (Jun 19, 2012)

I'm scared to ask, but I couldn't find 9x.75, and purchased 9x1 instead: I though this might be even better as the hole can be even smaller (9-1=8 as opposed to 9-.75=8.25).
but as I see that no one is bringing that up I'm  thinking something's wrong: is it that bad?


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## jd99 (Jun 19, 2012)

IPD_Mr said:


> Well Danny since you seem to know where everything is maybe you should take this one, cause I am done with it. Cheers


 Well buddy, I do have Family in the industrial supply business, I (as of earlier this year) have a Production Machine Shop business, along with a couple of others, If I can't find the tooling I need when I need it I wouldn't be doing that great at running a machine shop, now would I??

Plus a bunch of years in the machining trade before I retired from it.


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## Texatdurango (Jun 19, 2012)

studioso said:


> I'm scared to ask, but I couldn't find 9x.75, and purchased 9x1 instead: I though this might be even better as the hole can be even smaller (9-1=8 as opposed to 9-.75=8.25).
> but as I see that no one is bringing that up I'm  thinking something's wrong: is it that bad?



Why scared to ask?

I'm sorta guilty for some of the 9mm x .75mm tap and die issue so let me explain.

When I started going kitless I was doing a lot of bulb fillers and a few eyedropper fillers.  Having a tight seal that would not leak required fine threads and a dab of silicone grease.  I didn't care for the .5mm pitch which was too fine in ebonite and the 1mm pitch leaked in a few prototypes I made so the only thread pitch I was really happy with was the .75mm so I decided to just make the 9mm x .75mm my thread of choice for almost all of my pen designs rather than switching amongst several similar sized threads.

If you have no desire to make pens where the joints need to be leak free, than by all means use a 9mm x 1mm thread, the few thousandths difference shouldn't give you any problems.


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## watch_art (Jun 19, 2012)

Something I've been asked a few times is why the hangup with 9x.75?

So... why the hangup with 9x.75?  Does it have to be 9mm?  I use 10x.75 for my section to barrel.  Leaves a little more meat around the converter.  On my larger pens I use 11x.75 for section to barrel.


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## Texatdurango (Jun 19, 2012)

watch_art said:


> Something I've been asked a few times is why the hangup with 9x.75?
> 
> So... why the hangup with 9x.75?  Does it have to be 9mm?  I use 10x.75 for my section to barrel.  Leaves a little more meat around the converter.  On my larger pens I use 11x.75 for section to barrel.


Shawn, It's not a hangup, it's a preference.  See the post above yours for my take on the subject.  Others may have other reasons.

It really depends on the body to cap threads you use.  Myself, I use the 12mm and 14mm multi-start tap and die sets and if you tried the 10.75  threads for the section on a pen using the 12mm m/s threads, you would have a really thin wall condition between your lower body female section and male cap threads.


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## jd99 (Jun 20, 2012)

Just ordered a set of M9 x .75 HSS Tap and Die (Split 1" Dia.) that way when someone goes out and buys every one that there is in the country, I'll still have a set. :biggrin:


BWWWWAAAAHAHAHAHAHA.


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## Brian Chislett (Jul 8, 2012)

I am interested if you could ship to the UK. I am in the process of researching he process at the moment. Kitless is the next step.
Cheers
Brian


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