# RANT: Ok, I got angry



## Padre (Nov 11, 2010)

RANT MODE ON:  CRUD!!!!  A few weeks ago I joined the Yahoo pen site.  I wasn't overly interested, but I thought I'd give it a try.  I think I posted once or twice in a month.  I wasn't very invested in the site, like I am this one, but still, I thought I might get some good ideas.  I would get emails when someone new posted.

Today, in my email, I got this from the moderator:
*Subject: Veteran's Day*

_"No disrespect, but this is a pen turning group.  There must be groups for veterans to congratulate each other._ _Back to business, guys and gals!  Future posts will be deleted.  I can't prevent emails going out though.  Deliberate posts after this risk getting put on moderated status._
    [FONT=&quot]_-- 
Best regards,
Rich
==========================
Richard Kleinhenz
moderator"_

I couldn't believe it!  There were 3, yes a whole whopping 3 posts thanking vets in this thread before this warning came out.  

Then I got another email from the Yahoo Groups saying:
*Subject: Happy Veterans Day to all past present and future military personnel
*
[/FONT]  "_Topic closed.  See my other post.  No disrespect.  Please abide by our rules_
  [FONT=&quot]_-- 
Best regards,
Rich
==========================
Richard Kleinhenz"_

That thread had a total of 8 posts thanking vets before being shut down.

The first to react was a person who wrote this : "[/FONT]_Don’t bother putting me on moderated status. Go ahead and remove me from this list if a few emails thanking our veterans upsets you that much._ _ _
_Thank you to all my brothers-in-arms whether you be a swabbie, jarhead, coastie, ground-pounder or flyboy._

[FONT=&quot]Then another person wrote a post saying "[/FONT]_[FONT=&quot]I am sorry Rich but I too have to disagree with what you just said.  If we can't go out there and thank the very people who have given us so many freedoms that we enjoy, to include simple things like this forum, you too can put me in a moderated status.  I think you should use a little discretion in the position you are holding before going out there and making threats of moderation.  I am sure you didn't mean any disrespect towards veterans but being a 26 year veteran myself, I took it just that way.  Maybe some of you should remember the way our older generation of veterans were treated upon their return from Vietnam and keep in mind, there aren't enough ways to thank a veteran for the many sacrifices they have made.....too include making those thanks known in a "Pen Turners" forum.  Enough said....[/FONT]_  "

Then I posted saying "[FONT=&quot]_Go ahead and moderate me too. Like a silly Yahoo group is more important than what I am about to say: To my brothers and sister veterans, for those who gave some and those who gave all, I say thank you and it was a pleasure serving with you._"

Then a bunch of other posts came in to both threads soundly yet politely disagreeing with this moderator.

Now all of the disagreeing posts have been deleted.

I left the group after posting this, which is also deleted now: "[/FONT][FONT=&quot]_Well it IS disrespectful. You owe your freedom to these people, even the freedom to be disrespectful.  Don't bother moderating me, I'm leaving on my own._"

I haven't gotten my dander up this much in a long time.

Ok, rant over.

 [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 
 [/FONT]


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## ed4copies (Nov 11, 2010)

Chip,  I believe the Yahoo group doesn't  allow "politics".

As some suggested in another thread here, THEY are "Purely, a pen-turning site".


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## Padre (Nov 11, 2010)

ed4copies said:


> Chip,  I believe the Yahoo group doesn't  allow "politics".
> 
> As some suggested in another thread here, THEY are "Purely, a pen-turning site".



I don't think, imho, that thanking a veteran is a political act.

And if THEY are "Purely, a pen-turning site"., and this is the outcome of being so sterile, then I can see why it's a "DYING purely, a pen-turning site."


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## sgimbel (Nov 11, 2010)

Good for you Chip.  I would have told them the same thing.  If it wasn't for our Vets where would this country be.  I am a seven year vet and I think that moderator needs moderating!


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## steeler fan1 (Nov 11, 2010)

Hi Padre,

I'm all for your rant. I joined the Yahoo penturning group a while back but have never posted or followed it. In fact I'd like to get off that forum, maybe if I post to Vetrans thread they will remove me.

I'm not condoning the moderators heavy handed approach but we need to remember these forums are international and everyone doesn't comemerate vetran services the same as we do in the US. 

Still no reason to threaten and delete posts. Maybe I'll go there and wave a few flags of my own.

Now if I could just remember how to get to that forum:biggrin:.

Thank you to all the Vets everywhere, reguardless of the flag you serve.

Proud to be an American!

Carl


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## JerrySambrook (Nov 11, 2010)

Carl,
You would find there are a number of countries who recognize this day as Armistace Day, which what it was called long before Veterans Day, or Rememberance Day, or Veteran's Day.
So the international fling pretty much goes out the window.
The original intent of this day was to celebrate the end of "The War to End All Wars" or "The Great War"  (WW I)

Jerry


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## randywa (Nov 11, 2010)

Chip, I'm with you. I just asked to be dropped.


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## MesquiteMan (Nov 11, 2010)

Guys, let's not go on knocking another forum.  We are better than that!  Also, just for information, Rich is not the moderator of that forum/list, he is the "owner" and as such, has a right to make whatever policies he wants, even if the masses don't agree.  Remember, just like IAP, there is no such thing as freedom of speech on a privately owned forum.

Not saying I agree with their actions by any means, btw.


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## steeler fan1 (Nov 11, 2010)

JerrySambrook said:


> Carl,
> You would find there are a number of countries who recognize this day as Armistace Day, which what it was called long before Veterans Day, or Rememberance Day, or Veteran's Day.
> So the international fling pretty much goes out the window.
> The original intent of this day was to celebrate the end of "The War to End All Wars" or "The Great War" (WW I)
> ...


 

Jerry,

I don't intend to start any flame here but please read my post clearly. I never said other countries didn't commerate vertrans services, simple that they ALL don't do it the same time and way that we do in the US. Sorry if I sound rude but I don't need a history lesson. 

Carl.


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## Padre (Nov 11, 2010)

MesquiteMan said:


> Guys, let's not go on knocking another forum.  We are better than that!  Also, just for information, Rich is not the moderator of that forum/list, he is the "owner" and as such, has a right to make whatever policies he wants, even if the masses don't agree.  Remember, just like IAP, there is no such thing as freedom of speech on a privately owned forum.
> 
> Not saying I agree with their actions by any means, btw.



I thought long and hard about posting this here Curtis, and I really hesitated because I didn't know if I and the post "crossed the line" in the political sense.  And I didn't want to put you or the IAP in a bind.

If it stirs up too much 'trouble', you have my blessing to delete it, no hard feelings will be forthcoming from my side.


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## OKLAHOMAN (Nov 11, 2010)

Guys a couple of days ago Curtis asked what is political and got a number of members asking to remove the casual conversation forum, a few that said this is a pen turning forum and thats all that should be discussed here be very careful what you ask for..
Do I agree with all here, no but it's still the best pen turning site around...


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## wolftat (Nov 11, 2010)

Chip, don't let it get to you. They have their own policies and that was why I left a long time ago. Be bigger, badder, and better and forget about it and move on. By the way.....Happy Veterans Day to you and all my fellow veterans out there. Semper Fi

By the way, check out the thing Bruce Boone wax thing, you won't find that anywhere else.


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## thetalbott4 (Nov 11, 2010)

Atta boy, Chip! Thanking a vet is definately not a political statement. You can be for, against, or indifferent to a war or political party and still be grateful for people who choose to defend our freedoms. As for the comment about an international forum, if I joined a UK or Japan based forum I would certainly not be offended or surprised by people from those countries extending a thank you to thier fellow countryman for whatever reason. Furthermore, I dont believe that our fellow forum members from other countries would be irritated by comments regarding American holidays.

There comes a time when you have to stand up for what's right and what you believe in, and like our veterans, say, "I'm willing to suffer the consequences in the name of what's right."


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## robutacion (Nov 11, 2010)

Well, well, well..., this sounds very fresh and familiar, indeed...!

Now, I obviously have an opinion and some will disagree no doubt but, lets put the "weapons" down and think with our heads, only...! I have no intent to disrespect anyone including any vet which to whom, I have a great respect and admiration but, lets set the vets subject a side and look into it with, a little deeper than the superficial skin this and many "other" subjects have.

This is, as I understand it, an excellent example of what Curtis was talking about in his recent thread (you know what I'm talking about...!), and what I call a "trigger" and why we have different opinions about it.  In the end of the day, if the Yahoo site (which I only now heard about!) has in its rules and regulations a clear statement that no other "subjects" other than Penturning will be allowed there, them my friend, and with all due respect, you have absolutely no claim.

The problem starts when we and I mean "WE" join to these forums without bothering to read VERY CAREFULLY the conditions that apply on membership application.  This is a fact and I would bet that 95% of people don't even read a single line of the rules before clicking "yes I agree"...!

Now, this person Rich, identifying himself as the moderator and not the owner is irrelevant, if he wasn't the owner and just a moderator, I'm certain that he would be following strict instructions to make everyone follow the "rules", no different than our moderators here, following the rules and judgment criteria created by the site's owner, Jeff.

Do I agree with the reason why that Yahoo Penturning site does not allow any other subjects than those directly on indirectly related with penturning, (and they are plenty...!)...??? yes, I absolutely do.  In years passed I would have been a little more flexible with my thoughts but, we are experiencing this exact same problem here, right now, even tough some will not admit it.

Certain subjects are just too sensitive to many, to be discussed in forums.  Regardless of how you approach them, you will offend, upset, disturb and stress others, which whom have the right to respond and defend themselves and their thoughts/believes so, what is the best way NOT to provoke people for a "fight"...??? DO NOT use/push TRIGGERS, period...!

Now, why is that, we all, regardless of age, gender, race, religion, political inclination and whatever..., know these things and keep making the same mistake over and over again...???

Would you like a simple example..??? already in this thread, someone said something that did not go well or wasn't understood proper, resulting in a response that provoked a negative and visibly upsetting reaction from the other person, this is called the "triggers", and believe me, I have a few myself that some people like to push if given the opportunity, am I alone...??? heck no, we all have them, regardless if some want to admit it or not...!

So the moral of this story is, don't give people the opportunity to pull "triggers", period...! or in other words for those that may claim that don't understand these king of language, keep it simple and in context with the existence and goals of this forum...!

I only hope that Jeff, the site's owner, keeps to his principals and don't let himself fall into such mistake, of trying to please everyone, just not humanly possible, have been tried many times and all have failed...!

As I said in the beginning, I'm perfectly aware that what I just said is a trigger itself, to some people, for that I apologise but, what I had to say couldn't not be said in any other way, even if I had preferred not to have had a reason to say it...!

Cheers
George


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## PenMan1 (Nov 11, 2010)

MesquiteMan said:


> Remember, just like IAP, there is no such thing as freedom of speech on a privately owned forum.
> 
> Not saying I agree with their actions by any means, btw.


 
As a Drill Sargent once told me "Son, In the Air Force we don't practice Democracy...We're just here to PRESERVE it. Now give me 20!:biggrin::biggrin:


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## robutacion (Nov 11, 2010)

Padre said:


> MesquiteMan said:
> 
> 
> > Guys, let's not go on knocking another forum.  We are better than that!  Also, just for information, Rich is not the moderator of that forum/list, he is the "owner" and as such, has a right to make whatever policies he wants, even if the masses don't agree.  Remember, just like IAP, there is no such thing as freedom of speech on a privately owned forum.
> ...



G'day mate...!

I'm glad you posted this, I know that you didn't mean to stir problems, as I believe you aren't that sort of person but sometimes, we do it unintentionally and that is a fact.  

I also understand and I respect the fact that you were upset with what happened with the Yahoo penturning site, and off-course you felt that you need to speak with someone about it.  I really wished that you would had PM me or someone else instead of sharing your "smoke" with all of us in this open room to the world.

You or anyone else, are most welcome to PM me or email me if they want to let some steam off, I'm no saint nor I'm capable of miracles but if I have to chose in between having a "conversation" with someone that is upset or have something up their chest, and seen a dog's fight here just because some will see the opportunity to be provocative or have their problems stirring need, fed then, be my guest, I'm all ears...!

On the other hand, your thread is in fact something that I, and many of us would like to see voided, before IAP administration feel the need to introduce some tighter topic conditions (an I believe they should, rather sooner than latter...!) These "triggers" are dangerous, and the end result is never a good one, which wouldn't help you with your frustration or disappointment anyway, in fact, the chances are, you endup getting even more upset because someone may say something that is going to upset you even more.

I may be in that category, right now but, please take no offence, I have nothing but respect for you and I'm trying to deal with the "issue" the best away I can, and this is my attempt to minimize or stop future opportunities for "trigger" issues...!

Cheers
George


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## Smitty37 (Nov 11, 2010)

*Yup*



JerrySambrook said:


> Carl,
> You would find there are a number of countries who recognize this day as Armistace Day, which what it was called long before Veterans Day, or Rememberance Day, or Veteran's Day.
> So the international fling pretty much goes out the window.
> The original intent of this day was to celebrate the end of "The War to End All Wars" or "The Great War" (WW I)
> ...


 
Armistice began...11th hour of the 11th day of the 11th month in 1918. and much of Europe also recognizes this day as special.


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## Smitty37 (Nov 11, 2010)

*I disagree*



robutacion said:


> Well, well, well..., this sounds very fresh and familiar, indeed...!
> 
> Now, I obviously have an opinion and some will disagree no doubt but, lets put the "weapons" down and think with our heads, only...! I have no intent to disrespect anyone including any vet which to whom, I have a great respect and admiration but, lets set the vets subject a side and look into it with, a little deeper than the superficial skin this and many "other" subjects have.
> 
> ...


 
You have every right to think as you do...but I don't agree that the world will be a better place if we avoid conversations about controversial subjects.  

My question would be this.  Why should it bother me if two other members (or three or twenty) have a strong disagreement about something.  I can just skip the thread.  What could be simpler?


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## Grizz (Nov 11, 2010)

I think there are way to many affronted sensibilities on most forums.  If you don't like the thread.   Just go on to the next one.  You don't like a member.  Just avoid their post... some forums you can just put them on ignore.


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## maxwell_smart007 (Nov 11, 2010)

As an aside, Remembrance Day is recognized (I can't think of a good word to use, as _celebrated_ doesn't fit) in Canada on November 11th.  I believe the rest of the Commonwealth observes it as well.

Grizz, you can ignore people on this forum as well.  The process is quite easy, if you're so inclined.


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## robutacion (Nov 12, 2010)

Smitty37 said:


> You have every right to think as you do...but I don't agree that the world will be a better place if we avoid conversations about controversial subjects.
> 
> My question would be this.  Why should it bother me if two other members (or three or twenty) have a strong disagreement about something.  I can just skip the thread.  What could be simpler?



Hi Smitty,

I would like to attempt to answer your question with another question, even tough, often I'm told that I shouldn't do it (talking about being controversial...!:wink...!

While your comment seems fair, how come you, me and so many others get "dragged" into these sort of threads, and do not follow your own simple recommendation...???

Better said than done, huh...???:wink::biggrin:

Cheers
George


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## Smitty37 (Nov 12, 2010)

*NO*



robutacion said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > You have every right to think as you do...but I don't agree that the world will be a better place if we avoid conversations about controversial subjects.
> ...


 
Not at all.  I wasn't dragged into this discussion. But if it bothered me I wouldn't have posted, I'd just have skipped reading it.


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## Ligget (Nov 12, 2010)

maxwell_smart007 said:


> As an aside, Remembrance Day is recognized (I can't think of a good word to use, as _celebrated_ doesn't fit) in Canada on November 11th. I believe the rest of the Commonwealth observes it as well.


 
Rememberance Day is recognised on November 11th over here too!


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## dasimm (Nov 12, 2010)

FWIW - If you served - THANK YOU for your service and Rock-On!!! Freedom is in no way FREE. If you feel differently then please - by all means - feel free to move!


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## gketell (Nov 12, 2010)

I had been receiving their email for years now.  But I have noticed that most of what is on there is covered by duplicate posts on one of the other forums I read anyway.   So in light of his actions I unsubscribed from their system.  Sad behavior on his part, IMHO.


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## KenV (Nov 12, 2010)

I will speak up for Rich --   Rich is assisted in moderation of the Yahoo group by Don Ward and Pat Lawson - All three are masters of the art of pen making.   The history of the group goes back over a decade.   All three are patient and have endured commentary and flames about insisting/reminding people that a favored topic not associated with pens should be taken elsewhere.   There is no "casual conversation" forum in the Yahoo structure, and content in "casual conversation" has cause more than a few hot times in IAP.

I have monitored and occasionally posted on the Yahoo list for a lot of years.   It has a history of some who insist on adding content outside of the pen making charter and Rich has needed to provide a consistent "what is there about No that you do not understand" approach.   

Strong feeling and personal values about topics seem to cross boundaries easily in the internet world, and I appreciate places where the boundaries are kept carefully.   

A focused pen list is not a place to take "casual conversation" topics in my opinion -- and I say that with full respect for the meaning of the last two days to many people.   The last two days (Marine Corps Birthday and Veterans Day) may not have that same meaning to all people.  

The Yahoo group has a different dynamic, and a somewhat different audience.  It has a more narrow charter and works better staying to that charter.


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## Scott (Nov 12, 2010)

Since the Yahoo Penturners has never made any bones about being strictly a penturning forum, I would support Rich in his efforts to curtail outside topics.  I've known Rich for years and he is a good person, but rules are rules and he does enforce the rules.

The Yahoo Penturners has served an important role in penturning education for a lot longer than we at the IAP have, and they continue to be an important outlet for penturning information for many people on the Internet.  Jeff and I were active Yahoodlers (or is that Yahooligans?) on that forum when we got together and chanted the the letters "IAP" three times, and formed this place.  I still follow their discussions there when I can.

Don't get me wrong, I am a Veteran and I honor Veteran's Day by spending it with my Dad, who is a WWII vet living at our local Veteran's Home.  Since the IAP is an online "Community", I think it's important to have our Casual Conversations forum, and be able to freely thank our Veterans, as well as many other topics, some of which even I don't read!  We are happy to have you here, thanking our Veterans, but we probably shouldn't knock another forum for having a policy such as this, especially when that policy can bring members to our crazy old IAP!

;-)

Scott.


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## Tanner (Nov 12, 2010)

This whole subject begs the question of the word Christmas.  I know the word, concept, holiday etc., has been brought up many times here over the years.  That word seems to twist some peoples briefs in the outside world.  It is considered a religious word and holiday.  Are we able to use that word here anymore?  It sounds crazy that I even have to ask.  But the way things are anymore, someone here will request a post with that word taken off.  When the time comes can we wish people a Merry ...well you know what.  By the way, I'm one of those people that refuses to say happy holidays.


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## maxwell_smart007 (Nov 12, 2010)

It is crazy, and no you do not have to ask, Tim! :biggrin: 

No, of course you will not have "Merry Christmas" moderated from your posts, because it is not at all offensive, and thus not at all a violation of the AUP.  

I kind of like happy holidays, though, as it recognizes that there are a number of holidays that occur in December...but to each his/her own!


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## Smitty37 (Nov 12, 2010)

*real trouble*



Tanner said:


> This whole subject begs the question of the word Christmas. I know the word, concept, holiday etc., has been brought up many times here over the years. That word seems to twist some peoples briefs in the outside world. It is considered a religious word and holiday. Are we able to use that word here anymore? It sounds crazy that I even have to ask. But the way things are anymore, someone here will request a post with that word taken off. When the time comes can we wish people a Merry ...well you know what. By the way, I'm one of those people that refuses to say happy holidays.


 
Holiday....at least one of the roots is Hallowed Day or Holy Day.  Some might object to that also.


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## titan2 (Nov 12, 2010)

Grizz said:


> I think there are way to many affronted sensibilities on most forums. If you don't like the thread. Just go on to the next one. You don't like a member. Just avoid their post... some forums you can just put them on ignore.


 
*Hear, Hear......+1*
 
 
*Barney*


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## Smitty37 (Nov 12, 2010)

*Yahoo penturners*

Until this thread I didn't realize there was a penturners forum at Yahoo.  So I went and signed up.  Well before I ever got a chance to go see what it's like, I started getting emails regarding the Veteran's Day controversy.  I canceled.


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## phillywood (Nov 12, 2010)

Well, guys, I read every single posts to this thread and I see all the different opinions here. One thing that i noticed that this an international forum and not all the countries celebrate or honor or recognize the same days in our calendar that we do. As such we need to respect their inputs or their recognized day. As for the Christmas it's more commonly celebrated and glorified in America and soem other countries won't recognize this we also have vast number of other Holidays and religious holidays that happen in this month so in order for us not to get branded as selfish we need to use happy Holidays that way it won't exclude our other religious people( for me I get to celebrate all of them) I have that advantage.:biggrin: 
As, for Yahoo penturners. I don't condemn or condone their action, but if Rich is the owner and he set it up that way that no other subjects out of the penturning is allowed then that's the way it is and if he makes one slip and allow it then he'd have a chaos on his hand.
Now about our good Ole IAP, well we are really blessed that Jeff allows this kind of discussions that have nothing to do with pen turning and at times people really have taken it to an extreme with their subjects. We need to take a deep breath and be careful not to loose this option, since if it gets out of hands then it takes only a click for Jeff to close this forum.
I suggest to be civil and respect one another and if the subject matter won't fit your taste then move on to another subject and respect the posters and let the moderators do their job instead of beating the dead horse.
As for the Veterans, I appreciate each and every one of you for your service and may God bless all of you, since I believe that if you all didn't serve this country it wouldn't be what it is and I for one wouldn't even have the right to be on the Internet and ramble all this.
Thank you


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## Grizz (Nov 13, 2010)

maxwell_smart007 said:


> It is crazy, and no you do not have to ask, Tim! :biggrin:
> 
> No, of course you will not have "Merry Christmas" moderated from your posts, because it is not at all offensive, and thus not at all a violation of the AUP.
> 
> I kind of like happy holidays, though, as it recognizes that there are a number of holidays that occur in December...but to each his/her own!



It seems that whatever is offensive is subjective.  You made decision that "Merry Christmas" is not offense before finding out if anyone is offended.  Trust me, there will be plenty of atheist/gnostics who will find "Merry Christmas" offensive.   And when they cry 'foul' what will you do.  The politically correct thing... or the right thing.  Because the PC thing seems to be the norm for these boards.


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## Russianwolf (Nov 13, 2010)

Grizz said:


> maxwell_smart007 said:
> 
> 
> > It is crazy, and no you do not have to ask, Tim! :biggrin:
> ...



As I self described atheist, I have no problem with Merry Christmas. It may be more of a problem to a person of a religion who devoutly disbelieves the christian religous implications of the day.Atheist don' believe and don't care if you do or not.


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## smoky10 (Nov 13, 2010)

I will say Happy Veterans Day to our present and past veterans, of which I am one; I will say Merry Christmas, Happy Hannakah, Happy Qwansai, Happy Bastille Day, or what ever  holiday is being celebrated by my friends here or anywhere else. I'm not being political nor am I trying to offend anyone. I have my beliefs and you have yours and I'm not going to change just to be politically correct.


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## Smitty37 (Nov 13, 2010)

*Don't I wish*



Russianwolf said:


> Grizz said:
> 
> 
> > maxwell_smart007 said:
> ...


 I wish all atheists had your attitude.


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## sekach (Nov 13, 2010)

Chip, Like you, I disagreed with what Rich said.  Thanking Veterans is NOT politically implied, connected, or any other off-topic diatribe.  It is what the name implies, a "Thank You" for what veterans have given us.  Just about every pen turning forum that I have been a part of have done things for veterans such as the "Pen for Troops" so I was confused as to why Rich got spun up over a few thanks.  He failed to use discretion in his role as a moderator and tried to paint this as a black and white topic....unsat.  However, I did like his idea of turning next years holiday into a "Veterans Day pen contest", I wish that had come out earlier as I would have gladly joined in on that.  Maybe we could do something like that here as well....for all the major holidays.  That way we are able to enjoy the holiday while doing what has brought us to these forums, designing and turning beautiful writing instruments!

Curtis, according to Rich himself, he is not the owner of that group, just the moderator.

R/ Bob


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## jeff (Nov 13, 2010)

Grizz said:


> maxwell_smart007 said:
> 
> 
> > It is crazy, and no you do not have to ask, Tim! :biggrin:
> ...



I disagree with the last sentence that "the PC thing seems to be the norm for these boards." I am not aware of ANY instance of anyone being asked to not say Merry Christmas, or any other holiday wishes. Can someone give me an example of how this is a PC place? PM or post here.


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## Smitty37 (Nov 13, 2010)

*Yahoo is the owner*



sekach said:


> Chip, Like you, I disagreed with what Rich said. Thanking Veterans is NOT politically implied, connected, or any other off-topic diatribe. It is what the name implies, a "Thank You" for what veterans have given us. Just about every pen turning forum that I have been a part of have done things for veterans such as the "Pen for Troops" so I was confused as to why Rich got spun up over a few thanks. He failed to use discretion in his role as a moderator and tried to paint this as a black and white topic....unsat. However, I did like his idea of turning next years holiday into a "Veterans Day pen contest", I wish that had come out earlier as I would have gladly joined in on that. Maybe we could do something like that here as well....for all the major holidays. That way we are able to enjoy the holiday while doing what has brought us to these forums, designing and turning beautiful writing instruments!
> 
> Curtis, according to Rich himself, he is not the owner of that group, just the moderator.
> 
> R/ Bob


 
Yahoo is the owner of all of the groups I would think.  Since you have to have a yahoo sign-on to join.


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## Smitty37 (Nov 13, 2010)

*Banning religion and politics*



jeff said:


> Grizz said:
> 
> 
> > maxwell_smart007 said:
> ...


 
I am not suggesting that you change it....but in my opinion banning any topic because it might be controversial (people might be offended or might have their feelings hurt) is in and of itself PC in action.


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## Jgrden (Nov 13, 2010)

Usually I am the one who........oh, never mind.


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## ctubbs (Nov 13, 2010)

I have read this threat for a time now, and tried as I might to keep my big mouth shut and failed, so here goes.  Should we try to not hurt another's feelings on purpose?  Of course.  Otherwise we loose all simbulance of being civilized, not to say that we are.  Should we walk on egg shells and check every possibility of someone getting the wrong idea about what we tend to put into print?  If that is so, we might as well sign up on the other pen turning site.  It is near impossible to right facial emotions or tones of voice on a computer screen.

Being PC has cost this country dearly in free thought already.  I, and I speak for one only, think that Jeff and all the others that stand guard here as mods are doing a great and thankless job of keeping this site under control.  No mater what the decission each one of them make, it will be absolutly wrong in some eyes.

Personal note: Do I think that the mod on the Yahoo site did the right thing?  Yes he did under the rules of the site.  Do I personally agree with him? NOT ON YOUR LIFE!  However it is his site.  If you wish to play with his toys, then you must follow his rules.  If you do not like his rules, then go play with someone else's toys.

For what it is worth, here is my own $0.02 worth.  Thank you Jeff for giving me the chance to get this out of my head.  If this is too bothersome, fee free to deleat it without comment.  It will not hurt my feelings. Yes I have read this before I posted it to the group.  There are some misspelled words but it is known how badly I spell.
Charles


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## MesquiteMan (Nov 13, 2010)

sekach said:


> Curtis, according to Rich himself, he is not the owner of that group, just the moderator.
> 
> R/ Bob



You are correct but Rich is the defacto leader since the actual owner is absent and has been for years.


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## Grizz (Nov 16, 2010)

jeff said:


> Grizz said:
> 
> 
> > maxwell_smart007 said:
> ...



What I said was that the 'politically correct' thing in the norm here.  For example you can cannot use the word 'effeminate' without people getting upset.  Especially if it is true in its context.


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## Russianwolf (Nov 17, 2010)

Grizz said:


> What I said was that the 'politically correct' thing in the norm here.  For example you can cannot use the word 'effeminate' without people getting upset.  Especially if it is true in its context.



Effff.... efim...... efemi......

Dang it I'm offended..... I can't pronounce it.


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## scubaman (Nov 17, 2010)

ctubbs said:


> Do I personally agree with him? NOT ON YOUR LIFE!


 
I am very curious what you do not agree with.  I don't believe I have given any personal opinion on any of this.  People have TAKEN it personally, and have mixed up the closing of a thread with an opinion about veterans or veteran's day.


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## sbell111 (Nov 17, 2010)

Frankly, I don't see what the big deal is.  The Yahoo group, as I understand it, has a 'no off topic posts' policy.  This policy should be enforced regardless of whether one agrees with the topic, or not.


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## Smitty37 (Nov 17, 2010)

*Or worse*



Grizz said:


> jeff said:
> 
> 
> > Grizz said:
> ...


 
You can't even say what it means without your post getting deleted for being "derogatory towards women" in big red letters.


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## MesquiteMan (Nov 17, 2010)

Come on guys.  Quit stirring the pot!  Smitty, where in the world are you coming from with your post directly above?  I do NOT see any big red letters anywhere in this thread.  If you want to gripe about the moderation on this site, send me a PM and let's not drag the whole place down with posts stating misinformation.

Curtis O. Seebeck
IAP Head Moderator


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## MesquiteMan (Nov 18, 2010)

Smitty37 said:


> You would have if you had read the IM notifying me that my post  responding to Griz when he mentioned effiminate (actually a derivitive  of the word)....had been deleted.




OK, so why drag that out into the open forum???  That should remain between you and the moderator in question or myself.  Like I said, if you have a problem with the moderation of this site, you are going to get a lot better response by taking it up with me since I am the Head Moderator.  Doing so on the forum like this accomplishes NOTHING and is just what is dragging this place down.


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## sptfr43 (Nov 18, 2010)

so anyway, I started thinking and one thought lead to another and I ended up in a place with bunnies and shiney things wondering how much coke and mentos I could put in my mouth before the resulting eruption started to shoot out my nose.


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## Padre (Nov 18, 2010)

scubaman said:


> ctubbs said:
> 
> 
> > Do I personally agree with him? NOT ON YOUR LIFE!
> ...



Yes, I took it personally since there was a long thread on Happy Birthday Marines that was not closed, but when it came to a post thanking veterans, you very quickly intervened and closed it.  That, to me, was a double standard.  If no "off-pen" posts are allowed, then none are allowed.  But why allow one and not the other?


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## Padre (Nov 18, 2010)

I would I would like to point out that I did not/do not think Rich, the Yahoo moderator, is a 'bad'  person for doing what he did, nor do I wish to do him or the Yahoo group any harm.  

In a separate note to Rich I said "I do think that you got caught in a situation where one off-topic thread  was not deleted, then another one was.  And the one that was resonated  with a lot of veterans and therefore became a tinder box and immediately  flamed."

I think being a moderator is an unenviable position and being one requires extreme patience and extra-thick skin.


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## Freethinker (Nov 18, 2010)

The way I look at it is this;

if there was a website/discussion forum somewhere with a thread devoted to thanking Veterans and commending them for their service, (and there are no doubt hundreds of them) and you or I came into that thread and said -- "Hey guys, do any of you know if the bushings that fit the Navigator pen kit are the same bushings as the ones for a Baron? Any advice or info you can give me will be apprecited." ...

.... I am pretty sure that some of the posters or moderators in that thread would respond to me with -- "Excuse me, but this is a thread about thanking the Veterans, buddy.....what the heck are you doing inserting a comment here about penmaking?!?!?


And they would be absolutely correct in doing so.

*But the reverse is also true.*

Why not discuss penmaking on penmaking forums, and discuss thanking Veterans of the numerous other forums that exist for that?

Just my two cents.


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## MesquiteMan (Nov 18, 2010)

I have closed this thread.  There is enough griping about moderators over here without the need to bring a different community's problems to our back porch.

Curtis O. Seebeck
IAP Head Moderator


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