# Opinion



## JAB1 (Jul 31, 2009)

OK...I know that this issue has been beat to death...but, I have a haunting question...what I want to know is how a CA finish vs a CA/BLO finish differs?.....my technique is to use thin CA---about 6 coats---after my sanding is complete.  I only use thin CA, no BLO.  When finished with my 6 or so coats of thin CA, I sand with MicroMesh ...up to 12,000 grit.  This finish seems fantastic, durable, etc....

Why would I want to use BLO with my CA when I seem to get a wonderful, durable finish with CA alone?  Will it be more durable and long lasting in the long run?  Or , am I OK with CA alone?......


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## its_virgil (Jul 31, 2009)

If you are happy with the results you get with CA only then stick with it. You will not add to the durability or quality of the finish by adding boiled linseed oil. "If it ain't broke it don't need fixin."  How does the finish differ with or without boiled linseed oil? No difference.
Do a good turn daily!
Don



JAB1 said:


> OK...I know that this issue has been beat to death...but, I have a haunting question...what I want to know is how a CA finish vs a CA/BLO finish differs?.....my technique is to use thin CA---about 6 coats---after my sanding is complete.  I only use thin CA, no BLO.  When finished with my 6 or so coats of thin CA, I sand with MicroMesh ...up to 12,000 grit.  This finish seems fantastic, durable, etc....
> 
> Why would I want to use BLO with my CA when I seem to get a wonderful, durable finish with CA alone?  Will it be more durable and long lasting in the long run?  Or , am I OK with CA alone?......


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## bradh (Jul 31, 2009)

The most important thing is the finish you choose works for you. If you are happy, stick with what you are doing.
The only advantage BLO could offer is a slightly faster finish. The BLO helps set the CA. With BLO, I typically can start the next coat about 45 seconds after the previous. With CA alone, I find I need a couple minutes between coats. I use medium CA though.


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## GouletPens (Aug 1, 2009)

bradh said:


> The most important thing is the finish you choose works for you. If you are happy, stick with what you are doing.
> The only advantage BLO could offer is a slightly faster finish. The BLO helps set the CA. With BLO, I typically can start the next coat about 45 seconds after the previous. With CA alone, I find I need a couple minutes between coats. I use medium CA though.


 Med. CA will make the difference in time, not the BLO. Using thin you can practically do the next coat before you blink twice.

I do a very similar process with similar satisfactory results. If it works for you as well as it does me you'll be hard pressed to improve on it. Though one thing you might want to try is with certain woods, esp. burls, rub a thin coat of BLO after sanding and before your first coat of thin CA then do your 6 coats just like you already are. I've found with some woods the BLO does bring a little bit of depth to the wood that the CA just doesn't quite get, but that's all I do. I don't BLO in between coats. Try it and see if you like it.


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## Wheaties (Aug 1, 2009)

GouletPens said:


> Med. CA will make the difference in time, not the BLO. Using thin you can practically do the next coat before you blink twice.
> 
> I do a very similar process with similar satisfactory results. If it works for you as well as it does me you'll be hard pressed to improve on it. Though one thing you might want to try is with certain woods, esp. burls, rub a thin coat of BLO after sanding and before your first coat of thin CA then do your 6 coats just like you already are. I've found with some woods the BLO does bring a little bit of depth to the wood that the CA just doesn't quite get, but that's all I do. I don't BLO in between coats. Try it and see if you like it.




I thought I remembered seeing somewhere (from Russ I believe) that MM all the way to 12,000 will darken the wood giving the same effect as using BLO. What is your experience with that method? Or do you MM to 12,000 and also add BLO?


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## GouletPens (Aug 1, 2009)

Wheaties said:


> I thought I remembered seeing somewhere (from Russ I believe) that MM all the way to 12,000 will darken the wood giving the same effect as using BLO. What is your experience with that method? Or do you MM to 12,000 and also add BLO?


Heh heh....I have to laugh a little when people swear by MM up to 12,000 before putting on CA. You can sand until 1 million grit but it's not gonna do what the chemicals can. I may start up a brawl here with this, but I'm of the opinion you're wasting your time going any more than 400grit before putting on a CA finish. The CA fills in the scratches and if you hold up my pens with 400gt sanding and a CA finish you won't be able to tell a lick of difference between it and anyone elses except I'll be done at least 15 minutes sooner:wink:


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## Wheaties (Aug 1, 2009)

GouletPens said:


> Heh heh....I have to laugh a little when people swear by MM up to 12,000 before putting on CA. You can sand until 1 million grit but it's not gonna do what the chemicals can. I may start up a brawl here with this, but I'm of the opinion you're wasting your time going any more than 400grit before putting on a CA finish. The CA fills in the scratches and if you hold up my pens with 400gt sanding and a CA finish you won't be able to tell a lick of difference between it and anyone elses except I'll be done at least 15 minutes sooner:wink:



I never claimed to "swear by it", but it's something I remember seeing and was just curious. But it's clear you haven't tried it. Thanks


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## Wheaties (Aug 1, 2009)

Found it. The section before the last section on the page:

http://www.woodturner-russ.com/PenPages-FinishingPens-CAglue.html


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## GouletPens (Aug 1, 2009)

Wheaties said:


> I never claimed to "swear by it", but it's something I remember seeing and was just curious. But it's clear you haven't tried it. Thanks


 On the contrary, I have tried it and found it to be of no advantage, and sorry I wasn't poking at you...in fact I was jabbing at all the guys that come up with their process and refuse to play around with it and try others' suggestions. I began MMing to 12000 because people swore by it and through my own experimentation I found it's just not necessary at least with the way I do things. But then again, CA finishes tend to be like predicting the weather...you can usually get it right but sometimes it just does what it wants!!


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## Wheaties (Aug 1, 2009)

GouletPens said:


> On the contrary, I have tried it and found it to be of no advantage, and sorry I wasn't poking at you...in fact I was jabbing at all the guys that come up with their process and refuse to play around with it and try others' suggestions. I began MMing to 12000 because people swore by it and through my own experimentation I found it's just not necessary at least with the way I do things. But then again, CA finishes tend to be like predicting the weather...you can usually get it right but sometimes it just does what it wants!!



True. I happen to agree. With BLO, I do get a darker grain with more "pop" IMO. I have also tried both at the same time (12,000 MM and BLO) just to see. How long to you let the BLO sit before continuing with CA? Or do you just do one after the other?


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## Rmartin (Aug 1, 2009)

I don't think there's any longevity issue with CA alone, I use the BLO to smooth out the CA between coats.


Finer sanding doesn't just remove scratches. MM will bring out the clairity of grain, not just fill in voids. It's true on some woods it won't make a difference, but it will on curly, fiddleback, and burls.


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## RussFairfield (Aug 1, 2009)

Brian,
Will you give me that 600 might be better than stopping at 400?? After that, I agree it is personal opinion based on what you can see. I can see the difference in polishing the bare wood to a higher gloss before applying the CA. Others cannot, and there is no way to argue about that.


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## JAB1 (Aug 1, 2009)

Russ,,,,,,I agree with you on the 600.....400 is still what I consider somewhat " coarse", and the 600 is where I stop.

Russ....do you think, based on your experience, that most wood, sanded to at least 600, with 6 coats of THIN CA glue is enough?  When you resand after the 6 coats, you sand several coats off.....maybe down to 3 coats?  I try to finish the CA to 12, 000 because 600 will leave scratches.  Thoughts?


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## GouletPens (Aug 3, 2009)

RussFairfield said:


> Brian,
> Will you give me that 600 might be better than stopping at 400?? After that, I agree it is personal opinion based on what you can see. I can see the difference in polishing the bare wood to a higher gloss before applying the CA. Others cannot, and there is no way to argue about that.


 Sure...600 is better than 400. And 800 is better than 600. But it's at what point can you really notice a difference and that is purely preference. All I'm really implying is that you only need to go to about 400 to get scratches small enough where you won't see them as individual scratches under the finish. Sure, if you go higher there is a law of diminishing returns about how it affects the look of the wood, we each just have to decide at what point our time is worth more than that increasingly diminishing incrimental improvement in the finish...


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## dalemcginnis (Aug 3, 2009)

Stick with the CA only.  I do BLO/CA because it's the only way I can do it without gluing my paper towel to the blank.


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## ed4copies (Aug 3, 2009)

*See your 600 and Raise you 400!!*



RussFairfield said:


> Brian,
> Will you give me that 600 might be better than stopping at 400?? After that, I agree it is personal opinion based on what you can see. I can see the difference in polishing the bare wood to a higher gloss before applying the CA. Others cannot, and there is no way to argue about that.



As is well known, I do plastic.

At 400 scratches are visible, 600 a little shine -- 1000 a really nice shine starts, reflects light and everything.  Ready to buff with white diamond.

So, what's my point?  IF I see the light reflect off of plastic at 1000, why not invest the extra minute and go from 400 to 600 to 1000 on wood???

May not SEE the light reflect on wood, but the scratch size is the same as it would be on resins.  It WOULD reflect light, if it COULD.


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## GouletPens (Aug 4, 2009)

ed4copies said:


> As is well known, I do plastic.
> 
> At 400 scratches are visible, 600 a little shine -- 1000 a really nice shine starts, reflects light and everything. Ready to buff with white diamond.
> 
> ...


 It would be different if you were polishing up the wood and leaving it natural, but when you're putting CA on the wood you're essentially putting a layer of plastic on it. Shine up the CA layer as fine as can be, but I'm not convinced from my own experiments that polishing up wood like plastic before putting on a CA finish gives any better result.


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## DurocShark (Aug 13, 2009)

Try all the different ways. Do what works for you.

I personally stop at 600 and then burnish on most woods. But that doesn't mean my way is better than anybody else's.

As for blo, I believe it does soften the ca finish a bit if you use it on the ca layers. After all it's a contaminant to the ca. But the difference only shows if you bite or otherwise abuse the pen. I've replaced worn hardware with different platings where the ca'd barrel was still beautiful.

(Worn platings include satin, gold, cheap chromes, enamel. None of the higher end ones yet.)


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## Sylvanite (Aug 13, 2009)

I've had good success with both plain CA and CA/BLO finishes.  When I'm going for a high buildup of CA, then I'll use BLO to help smooth out the application.

As far as surface prep goes, 600 grit is where I typically see the grain pop, so that's what I sand to before finishing.

Like others said - find what works for you and stick with that.

Regards,
Eric


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## Displaced Canadian (Aug 13, 2009)

Is it worth using EEE ultra shine on wood or acrylic? I know on some woods it just leaves black gunk in the grain. Any thoughts


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## GouletPens (Aug 14, 2009)

Displaced Canadian said:


> Is it worth using EEE ultra shine on wood or acrylic? I know on some woods it just leaves black gunk in the grain. Any thoughts


 It's basically just a buffing compound with wax...you'd be better off buffing with Tripoli on the buffing wheel IMHO. After switching to CA I found the EEE wax to be of no benefit.


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## wb7whi (Aug 15, 2009)

GouletPens said:


> On the contrary, I have tried it and found it to be of no advantage, and sorry I wasn't poking at you...in fact I was jabbing at all the guys that come up with their process and refuse to play around with it and try others' suggestions. I began MMing to 12000 because people swore by it and through my own experimentation I found it's just not necessary at least with the way I do things. But then again, CA finishes tend to be like predicting the weather...you can usually get it right but sometimes it just does what it wants!!


 
As I now understand him, Russ recommends sanding to 12k after the CA has been applied. He calls it finishing the finish.


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## GouletPens (Aug 17, 2009)

wb7whi said:


> As I now understand him, Russ recommends sanding to 12k after the CA has been applied. He calls it finishing the finish.


 I'm talking about how far you need to sand the wood _before_ putting on the CA finish...maybe I hadn't made that clear. I agree you want to polish the CA as high a gloss as you can, but it's not necessary to do so to the same degree to the wood _before_ putting on the CA.


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## Daniel (Aug 17, 2009)

Christopher, My knee jerk reaction is that EEE is for those that have not yet discovered good finishes. But that comes from comments I read a very long time ago. Since then I have sen it drift by in a comment or two that the turner seemed to be happy with the results. I don't know that much about it because I have never used it.
I am not sure what your experience is with CA or other finish methods. But it always seems to me that a lot of people are looking for a better way to finish with CA or a better alternative. It is the nature of the beast to always improve. This is a good thing or we would all still be turning on treadle lathes learning everything we know from a quarterly magazine or a P.S.I. catalogue. 

As for a CA Finish, I have never used BLO at all. From what I understand the BLO helps the CA Level. Some people have mentioned that it also speeds up the setting time. Although I agree that better leveling is a plus and an issue with my just plain CA method. I do nto agree that a faster set time is good.

I believe that faster setting creates to much heat and will cloud or bubble the CA. I actually use thisk CA to build my finish. it is slower setting, creating less heat, and possibly builds a slightly layer per coat. 

The only problems I have ever had with CA finish are.
1. learning to judge when the CA is thick enough that I can sand it smooth.
2. recognizing whent he CA is geting to thick and will overheat and bubble.
3. a very few times getting the mysterious "Cloud" effect in the CA. I general consider the clouds to be due to some type of contaminate of one type or another.

A CA finish takes me 30 min start to finish.
in comparison a finish ont eh wraps of a fishing rod require that I set and rotate the rod evey minute or two for 2 to 3 hours and still allow it to cure for 24 hours. I then get to do it again. this requiring at least 4 to 5 hours min of non stop attention. and a grand total of 48 hours for completion. it then needs to set an additional 48 hours before being bale to withstand harsh treatment. In my opinion all this efffert does not produce a finish any better looking or more durable than I get from CA. what it is is more flexable, maybe that is why it is called flex coat.


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## Daniel (Aug 17, 2009)

I do not read many directions for doing a CA finish, since I am able to do one. Are people trying to apply CA and have it set up Smooth and finished, like paint would do? If so then the frustration makes a lot more since to me.


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## Displaced Canadian (Aug 19, 2009)

Daniel,
I think I have read and watched everything there is on CA finishes and my method is surprisingly close to yours. Thick CA no BLO no accelerator, several coats, sand smooth, let sit for 24 and polish. Everybody tries to apply it as smooth as possible and everybody does some sanding/buffing. Some day I may try BLO but presently I don't have any and I don't see how it could improve the final product. Granted I have only done one piece of scrap and one pen with CA but the scrap was figured maple and it almost looks 3 dimensional. once I found what worked for me it wasn't that hard to do. next I will have to try an oily wood and see how it goes.


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