# Bring Back the Critiques Forum?



## jeff (Oct 27, 2006)

Let's discuss.


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## Dario (Oct 27, 2006)

I'm for it.

It does need to be moderated a bit tougher I think.  As you said, people need to know the distinction between critiquing the pen/product vs the maker.  As well as people agreeing to disagree in a civil way.


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## vick (Oct 27, 2006)

I liked the critique forum.  With that being said it kind of turned into another show of your pen forum where you got a lot of "Nothing to critique it looks great" comments.


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## Randy_ (Oct 27, 2006)

"Gee, that's great" comments are a total waste of everyone's time.  Anyone who's been turning pens for more than a week knows full well that taste varies a lot and even the worlds ugliest pen will find a few folks who will love it.(Ron's pickle pen excepted[])  No doubt a few people will get their feelings hurt on a true critique forum; but that is the chance they take.  If someone doesn't want to hear the "BAD" with the good, they need to avoid the forum and they need to understand that just because a few people don't like their pen, it doesn't mean that it is a bad pen.....seems pretty simple to me??  My vote is for resurrection the critique forum, ASAP!!


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## gerryr (Oct 27, 2006)

I think it was "locked" by the time I found the IAP, but I did go back and read a lot of it before it got "hidden."  I like the idea, but I also understand the difficulties of doing a critique when all you have is generally one photo.  I think one overall photo and a couple of extreme closeups would be better.  In a perfect world, you would be able to touch and feel the real thing.

That said, I would like to see it resurrected.  But, whoever moderates it, needs to come down heavily on people who start attacking someone.  It's one thing to offer a different point of view, but another entirely to say or imply that the owner of that view is something less than human.  Everyone is entitled to their opinion about a pen or anything else, but nobody has the right to use their opinion as a club against others.


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## Penmonkey (Oct 27, 2006)

Many times it's hard to Critique If you can't see the pen well. It would be almost like we are critiquing the pictures. I say don't bring it back.


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## JimGo (Oct 27, 2006)

As I said in the other thread, I liked it.  I had pens that I KNEW what was wrong with them, and they went into SOYP; the stuff that I thought was some of my better work went into Critiques.  Since Critiques was closed, it seems to me that people haven't been as willing to offer constructive feedback about the pens.


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## wdcav1952 (Oct 27, 2006)

If the critiques forum is brought back, as mentioned above some rules/guidelines are needed.

My thoughts are:  

1.  Avoid negative buzz words such as lousy, poor, loser, and the like.

2.  To critique, you should have an album with your work displayed.  Personally, I believe that you should show your credentials, ie your work, before you critique others.  Every one can buy a throw away camera and have Wal-mart make you a disc with the pictures on it.  If you can't display your own work, I question your right to comment on those who do.

3.  As mentioned, tighter moderation to lock a thread if the discussion becomes personal.

4.  Temporary suspensions from the forum for those who choose to participate in personal attacks.


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## Blind_Squirrel (Oct 27, 2006)

I for one would welcome honest critques.  When I show my wife or friends a pen all they can say is "it's beautiful!"  I am looking to better my pen making; who better to tell you the good/bad than your peer group?


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## ed4copies (Oct 27, 2006)

I stand squarely in the middle of the road:

Critique will be VERY difficult, based on a picture

There's a difference between TAKING offense and MEANING to be offensive-it is a FINE line that is REAL HARD to TYPE!!!  So, I believe, if the forum is open, let it be an open forum-short of foul language, keep a "you asked for it, you got it!" attitude.  Then, if a comment is misinterpreted the burden of clarifying is put on the person who made the comment, not some poor moderator.

I think, in a period of time, it will become redundant of SOYP.

Also, I, personally, won't be posting there.  I KNOW what's wrong with most of my pens (if there is something wrong), and YOU can't see it on a picture.[][][]

Heck, Dawn can't see it when she is holding it, and she has held and critiqued more pens than most people will make in a year!!!!!


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## mick (Oct 27, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Dario_
> <br /> people need to know the distinction between critiquing the pen/product vs the maker.  As well as people agreeing to disagree in a civil way.





> _Originally posted by Randy_
> <br />
> No doubt a few people will get their feelings hurt on a true critique forum; but that is the chance they take.





> _ originally posted by wdcav1952_
> <br />
> To critique, you should have an album with your work displayed. Personally, I believe that you should show your credentials, ie your work, before you critique others. Every one can buy a throw away camera and have Wal-mart make you a disc with the pictures on it. If you can't display your own work, I question your right to comment on those who do.





I'd like  to see the critique forum brought back ....if the above posts could be observed. By the critic...as well as the one being critiqued


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## ed4copies (Oct 27, 2006)

> _Originally posted by wdcav1952_
> <br />If the critiques forum is brought back, as mentioned above some rules/guidelines are needed.
> 
> My thoughts are:
> ...



Cav,

Sorry, but I respectfully disagree.  (And, I hope you know I DO respect your opinion)

Start with 4:  My version of being personally attacked involves sticks, stones and other  weapons.  If you tell me my mother wears combat boots, I may refer you to her credentials in participating in WWII dancing contests with our men in arms!!!  

Seriously, we need to have a thick skin.  You are gifted with a command of the language, but not all "posters" are as succinct.  So, if LOUSY is the best word I can find - it accurately represents my opinion of the fit of your centerband.  (Certainly YOU would have chosen to point out that it "appears to be out of alignment by twenty or thirty thousandths!!!")

Album pictures should have no bearing on this.  If I post a "flame" of your pen, it is either factually correct or incorrect.  If you go to my album and see I have never MADE a pen (as one member once suggested), this does NOT make me incapable of noting your aforementioned several thousandths GAP.  And, should you note on one of my masterpieces that the nib is "out of round", I merely need to go to the pen to see if you are correct.

Perhaps I am WAY off base, but I still don't believe a great critique can be generated by a picture.  

Hope you're not offended and I certainly don't mean any affront to the footwear you and/or your family may choose!!![][][]


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## Gary Max (Oct 27, 2006)

Standing on the far right side of the road.
The only Critique I care about is the person who is reaching for money.
I have no bad feelings about the forum being opened it's just not my cup of tea.


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## ed4copies (Oct 27, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Blind_Squirrel_
> <br />I for one would welcome honest critques.  When I show my wife or friends a pen all they can say is "it's beautiful!"  I am looking to better my pen making; who better to tell you the good/bad than your peer group?



Scott,

If there is a Woodcraft in your neighborhood, try there.  Or, find the AAW (American Assn of Woodturners) in your area.  While they seem to be "bowl-oriented", there are a lot of turners there who can HOLD your pen, FEEL the joints and, if you wish, give you accurate suggestions.


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## Ron in Drums PA (Oct 27, 2006)

I liked the critique forum. 

Tight moderation would be needed, censorship too!


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## Rifleman1776 (Oct 27, 2006)

It will work well for about an hour then go downhill to name calling. The idea is fine but history has shown it is a formula for disaster. OTOH, it might rid the forum of some flotsam. Change William's #4 to permanent suspension. Jeff, I think you are asking for headaches and ulcers if you bring it back.


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## cozee (Oct 27, 2006)

I could see it being quite useful if it was a true critique, and not something which is more like non-constructive criticism. Some may become wearied in hearing negative critiques and not realize they come from those who prefer a different style, color, or kit. Also, personally, I would only accept critiques from someone who has shown to be better at the craft than I. In this, perhaps a panel of those who have proven themselves to be leaders in the craft/art of penturning could be elected by board members. These people would also need to be personable as there are those who turen out some fantastically skilled work but fall short in the human relations department. Those not on the panel would not be allowed to offer a critique except by pm or email. This would also help to reduce the possiblity of the forum getting out of hand. 

  But, when it comes down to it, it doesn't matter what someone has to say about a pen but what someone is willing to pay for it!!!


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## melogic (Oct 27, 2006)

How about we bring it back on a trial basis to see how it is going to work? Also, maybe have the photo taking as part of the critiques as well. This way we become not only better pen turners, but better at taking pictures of our great works of art. Guidelines will have to be set and EVERYONE that participates will have to abide by them or suffer the consequences. If you do not want to hear the bad with the good, then do not post in that forum! Strict moderation is a MUST. With that being said, I would volunteer to be a moderator of that forum.


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## Rifleman1776 (Oct 27, 2006)

Here we go. Opinions can generate passion. What Cozee said, "But, when it comes down to it, it doesn't matter what someone has to say about a pen but what someone is willing to pay for it!!!"  Is an opening to a never ending debate that wouldn't get past two posts before the [explitive deleted] starts flying.
Add heart attack to the headaches and ulcers for Jeff it he resumes this.
I belong to a writer's critique group and know even the most expert and honest constructive criticizm can hurt. The regulars understand that and handle it. Often, though we see people come once and when we don't bury them in rose petals, that never return. All some folks are looking for is validation. You won't get that with critiques.


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## mrcook4570 (Oct 27, 2006)

I would like to see it.  However, the poster should be aware that pens can be judged objectively in only a few ways.  Most critiques, I believe, would be subjective and naturally influenced by any biases (towards shape, color, etc) that the person giving the critique may have.  Critiques, offered constructively, can certainly help one improve their product.  

Inevitably though, I am sure there will be misunderstandings as the typed word is not accompanied by voice inflections or body language.


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## Blind_Squirrel (Oct 27, 2006)

> _Originally posted by ed4copies_
> <br />
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks for the great idea!  I just joined the Tidewater turners association during their last meeting.  I will have to start bringing my work and asking for honest opinions. []


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## Blind_Squirrel (Oct 27, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Rifleman1776_
> <br />It will work well for about an hour then go downhill to name calling.



I disagree with you... you doo-doo head! [:0] [] []


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## DCBluesman (Oct 27, 2006)

I thought it then and I think it now.  This is a really stupid idea.  We have a forum dedicated to "show off" pens.  If you want warm air blown up your dress. post your photo with a "NPGJ Comments Only" caption (Nice pen, good job.)  If you want the photography critiqued, take your post to that forum.  If you want the opinion of anyone who cares to offer one, ask for a critique. Of course, expect to get a lot of BS comments about the chip under the finial or the dust on the barrel. To want a new forum moderated differently from the rest of the site is absurd.  To want it censored (except from Adult Content) is ludicrous.

BTW, for those of you who are somewhat new to the forum, you will soon realize whose opinions you value.  You will then avail yourself of direct input through correspondence.  The ensuing dialogs will be worth nmore to you than generic posts and critiques by faceless, nameless individuals who fear rebuke to the point that they hide behind the anonymity that the internet and this forum provide.


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## Mudder (Oct 27, 2006)

I would vote no.

From what I have seen a photograph can be deceiving. It can give you the illusion of things that are not there and it can make flaws less noticeable.

I think a critique forum is one of those things that are great in theory buy there is no practical way to make it work.


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## Skye (Oct 27, 2006)

Bring it back and let me mod it. [}]


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## Ron in Drums PA (Oct 27, 2006)

> _Originally posted by DCBluesman_
> <br />If you want warm air blown up your dress. post your photo with a "NPGJ Comments Only" caption (Nice pen, good job.)




[] You have a way with words Lou.[]


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## chitswood (Oct 27, 2006)

I'd like to see a critique's forum, often I have some advice about the pen in question, but I don't bother posting because I doubt my advice will be seen.


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## DCBluesman (Oct 27, 2006)

I'll help edit your next book, Ron. []


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## Randy_ (Oct 27, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Rifleman1776_
> <br />.....All some folks are looking for is validation. You won't get that with critiques.



Precisely the point, Frank.  Those folks can post in the SOYP forum and avoid the critique forum!!


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## alamocdc (Oct 27, 2006)

I have no use for it. I get sufficient constructive comments when I open the door for them from a number of the other forums, like Lou said. I think we're just asking for trouble here because someone's thong will get knotted up about something. Why give history a chance to repeat itself?[?]


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## Randy_ (Oct 27, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Mudder_
> <br />.....From what I have seen a photograph can be deceiving. It can give you the illusion of things that are not there and it can make flaws less noticeable.
> 
> I think a critique forum is one of those things that are great in theory buy there is no practical way to make it work.



I heartily agree with the first point; but as long as everyone understands that there are certain limitations to critiquing pens based solely on a photo or two, I believe there are still positive benefits to be had from an honest exchange of ideas and opinions.  I expect newer turners will probably benefit more from such a forum than the more experienced guys.  Their problems(newbies) are likely to be more obvious and more easily correctable: whereas guys who have been around for a while will be looking for us to pick at nits that don't even show up in a photo.   

As to the second point, the practical way to make it work is for IAP members to "make" it work.....and either we will or we won't!!!


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## clewless (Oct 27, 2006)

> _Originally posted by DCBluesman_
> <br />BTW, for those of you who are somewhat new to the forum, you will soon realize whose opinions you value.  You will then avail yourself of direct input through correspondence.  The ensuing dialogs will be worth more to you than generic posts and critiques by faceless, nameless individuals who fear rebuke to the point that they hide behind the anonymity that the internet and this forum provide.



You are right on point, Lou.


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## rtjw (Oct 27, 2006)

You know there seems to be an opinion missing from this topic. I just cant put my finger on who might have an opinion.


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## Skye (Oct 27, 2006)

The phrase "choose your battles" comes to mind.

Just my guess.


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## DocStram (Oct 27, 2006)

This is all very interesting reading. After reading all of these different opinions I've reached the conclusion that there is only one thing that we can all agree upon .... we share a passion for penturning.

After reflecting on the idea, I would vote no to the Critique forum for a couple of reasons:
1st The Show Off Your Pens Forum has turned into a sort of "critique" forum.
2nd When I'm ready to have one of my pens critiqued, I'll send the photo and solicit input from whomever I feel could give me the most valuable input.
3rd To "know" a pen .... is to use my tactile and kinesthetic input. I have to hold the pen in my hand and feel it. At Bubbasville SE, Skye and I spent about 30 minutes picking up and holding Chris Higdon's pens. Admiring his work at his website was one thing, touching them and getting the "Gestalt" was another.

The Critique Forum just isn't worth the disharmony it would create.


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## Skye (Oct 27, 2006)

Kinesthetic input? Were you bitten by a radioactive spider? [:0]

I agree with what you're saying, _but_ a new turner has no trusted people to show their pen to in order to get real input on their pens. Throwing them a snausage every time they turn a pen with problems wont help them.


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## JimGo (Oct 27, 2006)

I find that the SOYP forum doesn't generate critiques, even when I ask for them.  I know, I know...it must be because I make perfect pens every time, so there's nothing to critique.

The thing I like about the idea of a Critiques forum is that it is separate and distinct from SOYP, and when I post/posted there, I'm sending a clear signal that hey, if you see something that you think is a nit and would otherwise just ignore it in SOYP, PLEASE point it out; I may very well have missed it.  That's what I'm asking for when I post to SOYP and ask for critiques, but I don't get that kind of feedback.  I agree with Lou that SOYP COULD be used as both a "look at my latest" and a critiques forum, but I don't think people are comfortable giving their honest feedback because they are afraid of offending.

I also respectfully disagree with Lou.  He knows that I value his input, especially on some of my attempts at new techniques and the like.  But I know Lou and he knows me, and when we meet in person, because of that familiarity he may choose to hold back on commenting on something because he sees the pride with which I present it.  Same goes for Draken, MDWine, and the rest of the NOVA contingent.  The advantage to me not knowing Anthony, Bruce Boone, Don Ward, Jeff, Frank, Skye, Eagle, Fangar, or any of a number of others here on a truly personal level is that when I post something, I hope that level of "anonymity" makes them more comfortable providing honest critiques.  

Of course, I do agree with Lou that there are some people whose opinions I value over others, but I know enough to either ignore outright or at least pay little attention to the comments of those others.  I think that, if anyone posting to a critiques forum understands that what's being offered is constructive criticism and not a trashing of the work simply to trash it, then they're going into it with their eyes wide open.  If they want the NPGJ type responses, post to SOYP and don't ask for critiques.  But if you want honest opinions, post to the Critiques forum.


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## DCBluesman (Oct 27, 2006)

<b>From the first page of SOYP</b>



> Looks slightly overturned at the finial end.





> I'm not crazy about the shapes, but the fit and finish look very good on all three.





> you might want to consider doing away with the CB or maybe just the gold ring and maybe changing the finial





> I really like the way the kit flows now. Great job.





> The CB winds up in an awkward place relative to the clip with the wood





> The picture I see appears to have considerable bleed-through into the white and spoils (sorry) the whole appearance.



There sure seems to be some critiquing going on without having to set up yet another forum...even some critiquing aimed at newbies.

Seriously, Skye, what am I missing?


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## JimGo (Oct 28, 2006)

OK, but that's six critiques out of a total of how many comments?


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## DCBluesman (Oct 28, 2006)

Out of zero that asked.  Of course, I really don't care.  I didn't participate as either a solicitor or as a contributor on the first go 'round and I won't change that pattern.  


> Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.
> George Santayana (1863 - 1952), The Life of Reason, Volume 1, 1905


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## gerryr (Oct 28, 2006)

The more I see the comments, the more ambivalent I get.  As I mentioned and others also, you can't real a genuine critique from a photograph.  Frankly, some of the photos posted on SOYP are so bad it's hard to tell anything except that it's a pen.  If those are the kind of photos that would get posted in a critique forum, the whole exercise is useless.  Any photo posted in a critique forum has to be razor sharp and the lighting and color have to be near perfect.  I had originally asked that the critique forum be brought back, but I've changed my mind.  I'm no longer in favor of it.  However, that's only my opinion and everyone else is entitled to theirs.[^]


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## panini (Oct 28, 2006)

You can critque the work as much as you want good or bad or awesome...Still the beauty of the project will be in the eye of the beholder...With the photo gallery each member see and will get ideas from eachother which that will experiment with each future project that they make...


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## Skye (Oct 28, 2006)

Lou, I dont know what point you're trying to make here.

Sure, there are comments and nits on pens in the SOYP forum now, but the point (of the people that are for it)is that we're not sure they're supposed to be there. For the most part, I feel like I'm kicking sand at someone in SOYP when I point out the problems. I do it regardless, because they need to improve (fit, sand, etc) or I just dont like something about the pen, but some people cant take a critisizm.

I dont remember who it was, but I posted a comment a while back on someone's baron. It looked, from the photo, that they really missed the bushing on the thing. This guy flew off the handle and acted like a 5 year old girl. I tried to find the post but couldent. I want to say it was a BOW one, probably close to a year ago. Prime example, too bad I cant find it! [!]


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## Ron in Drums PA (Oct 28, 2006)

After reading all the pros and cons, I'm going to change my vote.

I say No to the critique forum.


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## Jim in Oakville (Oct 28, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Penmonkey_
> <br />Many times it's hard to Critique If you can't see the pen well. It would be almost like we are critiquing the pictures. I say don't bring it back.



I agree, it's hard to see inside a picture and at times make critiques and comments on the execution and process oppertunities for someone to improve, some are more obvious though too.

I would love to see live a Fanger finish for example, but we rely on one sense when we view a picture, I sure wish we could see a pen in virtual 3D, even feel it.

I think that the internet format is ripe for misunderstandings and hurt feelings...I'd say for the sake of balance I would not participate on such a forum, I have seen them before, they have very short half lives...

Some people are able to critique well and communicate in such a way as to be supportive, other people have a problem with choosing words that help, others have a problem reading words and thier true meaning...not a good mix.

[][]

So does that count as a vote??

[]


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## cozee (Oct 28, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Ron in Drums PA_
> <br />After reading all the pros and cons, I'm going to change my vote.
> 
> I say No to the critique forum.



I agree and do the same. I say no. This thread is a good example of why.[]


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## olsenla (Oct 28, 2006)

Since Jeff asked, I am going to vote no to a critiques forum.  I have lurked mostly for the past two years, and I saw what the last critiques forum degenerated to.  I would like to see more effort put into getting together regionally, in person.  That is where you can really find out if your fit,finish, and design is good.  That is really hard to do from a photo.  JMHO

Larry


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## ctEaglesc (Oct 28, 2006)

> _Originally posted by jeff_
> <br />Let's discuss.


I was out of town yesterday at Klingspor for their woodworking show.[]
<b><u>If the Critiques Forum were to be resurrected as it was set up as before I would vote against it also</u></b>[^]
BUT
<b>Jeff's post said let's discuss, not let's vote so here goes.</b>For those of you who have been around for a while I started concentrating on glue ups laminations , inlays and kit mofications over a year ago.
I am not content to turn B2B pens from solid wood.Before you get your panties in a wad,I do not look down on those who make pens in that manner.<b>We all have different goals in this craft.Mine is to make pens that do not look like anyone else's.That's it pure and simple.Not to make them better, to make them DIFFERENT.</b>
Around the beginning of June 05 I wrote Jeff and suggested a forum for experimental work and suggested the "Testing Zone" 
I envisioned a forum that might contain posts of blanks that we are working on.
Pens that have had components changed, added hidden what ever could be done so that he finished pen did not have the appearance the manufacturer intended.
It may also have posts that included the request for opinions of patterns or colors or material for blanks.
An example would be Mesquite mans request for input on the cactus blank,(I think it was Mesquite man)
When The Critiques forum was  first instituted I immediately saw a problem.
The SOYP forum would not allow any comments other than NPGJ unless otherwise requested.
If a critique was wanted it should have gone into the Critiques forum.
The word"critiques" covers a broad spectrum.I suppose it would fill the bill for what I had in mind, but what I was thinking about was a forum that would further experimental work,get input on what direction might be taken with a design.
If you go to the discussions page the SOYP forum is described as"Let's see your best work! "
In truth it has become"LWIDT!"Look What I Did Today!"

I would suggest a new forum more in line what I suggested to Jeff over a year ago.
Here are a couple of ideas I had in mind to be included for guidelines

1The "sticky(I never read)that states the guidelines be included on the composition page for the post.It need not appear after the post is submitted.

2.the format be set up so the original poster cannot reply to subsequent posts.( the op could answer specific questions via PM if s/he chose)

3.all pictures be submitted on a neutral background with no accouterments.

4.No photo editing other than resizing."drag and drop" pictures lose definition.

_If you want someone to take the time to offer their ideas(for some of us it is an effort to type) then the least you can do is post a picture of your work as it appears in real life(natural light would be nice with no shadows) for visual assessment.Don't post catalog pictures_.

5.B2B pens would be allowed if the material used was not considered a "normal pen making medium"

<b>It is virtually impossible to offer a critiques on a finish and even sometimes fit is obliterated by photographic styles.</b>

A forum such as this would need very little moderation. 
I do suggest a moderator or a number of moderators be named* who have the power to move any post immediately if it is suspect of not fitting in the posting guidelines
If and when the "violation" is corrected it be returned to the forum.Violations could include pictures posted with rocks shells or anything else that does not directly pertain to the subject the poster requested input on.NO EXTRANIOUS "props" other than something simple to display a pen.


<b>In short make it a forum that furthers an information exchange as stated in the mission statement for this site in this craft.</b>
_BTW posting pictures is an exchange of information._[]





The SYOP should be schanged to Look What I DID TOday!
The "Show us your best work" be removed from the description of SOYP
No posts other than NPGJ be allowed unless a request for comments is made.
I have about 32 more suggestions but this should be enough to get a <b>discussion </b>started as <b>Jeff suggested in his original post</b>.

edit in I wrote"named" But I wonder if anonymous moderators _appointed by Jeff wouldn't be a good idea.I have always felt that a moderator should be a"voice" rom above and not tied in with any individualThis was an individual would be able to post a a regular member and no other members would have need to worry as to how they might post a comment.The moderators postition always seems to carry some type of"power" whther implied or real._


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## dfurlano (Oct 28, 2006)

I vote blue... no I mean red.. no blue, red, blue, red... oh, just decide for me.


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## Penmonkey (Oct 28, 2006)

Guys, I Critique my own pens as soon as they come off the lathe. I can see what is wrong. I can feel the finish myself. I decide what I'll do different next time. And then If it is worth showing off, THEN I GO SHOW IT OFF!!!

I don't need someone else to tell me if it is good or not. But I like hearing what others think about it.


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## Skye (Oct 28, 2006)

> _Originally posted by cozee_
> <br />
> 
> 
> ...



That's like my wife and I not agreeing on what car to buy, so we just walk everwhere instead.

If people are getting chips on their shoulders in this thread, is isnt an example of why such forums shouldent exist, it's an example of why such people shouldent post pens there.


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## DocStram (Oct 28, 2006)

> _Originally posted by ctEaglesc_
> 
> 
> 
> 3.all pictures be submitted on a neutral background with no accouterments.


<b>
Everything </b> that eagle just said .... except for the word _accouterments_.   That's almost as good as my _kinesthetics_ word that Skye made fun of!


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## Ron in Drums PA (Oct 28, 2006)

I'm sure others see what is happening here in this thread.

This is what the critique forum will be like. Is this what you are looking for Jeff?


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## jeff (Oct 28, 2006)

I believe that a critique of a reasonably well-made pen via a photograph is pointless. The technical differences between reasonably well-made and great are extremely hard to see in a photograph, and anything else - shape, grain, shine, etc. is just opinion. Honestly, there aren't that many different ways to execute a standard pen kit on a hunk of wood or plastic.

Before the critiques discussion came up again, what I was considering was a forum called "The Penturners Laboratory" where we could post our experiments, accidental successes, total flops, work in progress, prototypes, etc. I had not considered that to be a place where we would try to evaluate standard pens for fit and finish.

So "critiques" in that forum would be what we intended in the first place. Constructive criticism of methods and outcomes of experiments. What might work is that we moderate (a moderator has to read and approve the post before it shows up) the first post of a topic. It has to meet some criteria - we'd disallow standard finished pens. It'd have to be some partly finished thing, or an oddball blank or casting, or some other experimental prototype. The requestor would have to describe it, provide good photos, and ask for feedback on specific aspects of the experiment. Lacking any of that, the post would be rejected. Followups would not be moderated (they post without moderator review), but a moderator would watch the discussion and keep things civil. 

Any thoughts on that?


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## Mudder (Oct 28, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Skye_
> <br />
> If people are getting chips on their shoulders in this thread, is isnt an example of why such forums shouldent exist, it's an example of why such people shouldent post pens there.
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Insert lame sig here --&gt; &lt;--



It would seem from your tag line that you also fall into that crowd?


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## DocStram (Oct 28, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Mudder_
> <br />
> 
> 
> ...



Mudder .....  maybe it's because I'm an old guy or, sometimes, I'm just a little slow.  I don't understand your post regarding Skye's tag line.


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## Fangar (Oct 28, 2006)

Here were go again.  Personally, if a pen is posted in the "Show off your pens" catgegory, it should be open for "Critique".  Otherwise, why post it?  I usually talk about ideas I am working through or different techniques in the appropriate forums (Casual, Tips, etc).  If someone gets riled up over a, "Hey that is a nice pen, but the finish appears a little dull for my tastes", or "That color kit does not work with that blank", etc. or even, "That is only ugly arse pen", then there will be issues regardless.  

I disliked the two different forums from the get go before.  Why post in the SYOP and not the Critiques forum?  Get rid of the SYOP and call it critiques if we must.  I respect each and everyone's opinions of any of my submitted work, even if we don't see eye to eye (READ: they are wrong []) and I don't agree with them (READ: They are wrong[]).  If ones skin is so thin that they get riled up over an opinion of a method, design, or of a finishing technique for example, then there might be other issues elsewhere that might not be related to pens. 

Cheers,

Fangar


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## melogic (Oct 28, 2006)

> _Originally posted by jeff_
> <br />I believe that a critique of a reasonably well-made pen via a photograph is pointless. The technical differences between reasonably well-made and great are extremely hard to see in a photograph, and anything else - shape, grain, shine, etc. is just opinion. Honestly, there aren't that many different ways to execute a standard pen kit on a hunk of wood or plastic.
> 
> <b>_Before the critiques discussion came up again, what I was considering was a forum called "The Penturners Laboratory" where we could post our experiments, accidental successes, total flops, work in progress, prototypes, etc. I had not considered that to be a place where we would try to evaluate standard pens for fit and finish._</b>
> ...



Jeff I like this idea. I think it sounds a lot like what eagle was talking about he had in mind. I feel a forum like this would benefit us better than a standard critiques forum. After watching the responses on this thread, I had changed my vote for a critiques forum to NO like so many others. I do feel a forum such as you described would be beneficial to many of us here. We all learn from our mistakes and we have in the past built on others findings and/or experiments.


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## Skye (Oct 28, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Mudder_
> 
> It would seem from your tag line that you also fall into that crowd?



I'm not following you either.


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## gerryr (Oct 28, 2006)

I like Jeff's idea a lot.  I think this sort of thing has a lot of potential to really expand our efforts outside the standard kit.


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## Ron in Drums PA (Oct 28, 2006)

Jeff you have that forum here.

If you where start up your idea, I think not only should the original post be approved by a moderator but all follow up responses be approved also.


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## Randy_ (Oct 28, 2006)

> _Originally posted by jeff_
> <br />.....What might work is that we moderate (a moderator has to read and approve the post before it shows up).....



Does the above bother anyone as much as it bothers me??

How about a critique forum that is by permission only?  I have seen it on other web sites.  Initially everyone is permitted access.  One  moderator warning for folks who don't understand the concepts of politeness, respect and civility and then access will be revoked.  I don't know if IAP has this capability or not; but maybe it is something worth considering.  In theory is is a very nice concept.  The forum is a tool that everyone is allowed to use unless they abuse it and if so their access to the tool is taken away.  Mods might be much more willing to discipline offenders if they knew the person was only loosing access to a single forum and not the full board and could moderate more tightly than they do the general forums.


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## ctEaglesc (Oct 28, 2006)

> (a moderator has to read and approve the post before it shows up) the first post of a topic. It has to meet some criteria - we'd disallow standard finished pens.


I like the idea or concept of the forum  you outlined but I am not sure of the reasoning behind a "preapproval" by a moderator and frankly don't like the idea of that aspect of it.
I see a time lag thing happening.If I am working on something and want input, I Don't want to wait for someone to"approve" it.
What happens if traffic gets busy?
I believe self moderation would wotk just as well.
If something is posted that doesn't belong a P.M. could be sent to the powers that be stating why it shouldn't be on the forum.The post could be moved if necessary and  reinstated or not, but tell the postere(who supposedly read the rules) as to why it shouldn't be on the forum.


> Honestly, there aren't that many different ways to execute a standard pen kit on a hunk of wood or plastic.


Wasn't that why the patent office was closed around 1803?(I may have the date wrong, but I am close)
NO it makes no sense to take $6.00 worth of kits and make a pen that could have been made with a $1.79 kit, that would be pure stupidity but it might be considered by some to be an innovation.
For those of us that do experiment we don't know what can be done with a standard pen so we experiment.
For example(sorry the thumbnails don't work  for me, I mean they really don't work, I can't pull down a picture when I click the button)
I once asked Fritz how much a Parker "longwood" style pen kit cost.He spent a few minutes looking through the PSI catologue and finally said"Eagle" they don't make one":
I said I know, I just did.
The top one in this picture is a longwood from a slimline the bottom one is a Parker.





<br />
My point is how do we know what can be done usless some of us try to improve upon what the manufacterers limited selection supplies us with?
Most casing pens were made out of 30-06 because they fit a slimline nib.
I chose to make mine out of a Parker(8mm kit) then I made Parker refills out of a standard 30-6  and a slimline nib but used a Parker refill.
Again we won't know unless we try and experiment.I was hoping that is what this forum would be for.


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## Ron Mc (Oct 28, 2006)

I think having a critique forum would be a nice idea. It would be a place where pens can be posted where other members can actually tell us what they think. I don't think the show off your pens area is meant for this. I personally feel that it's a forum where members post pens not to be critiqued but to share them.
I personally say just open it up. I don't like the idea of having every post I make in it looked at before having it show up.[8)]
Honestly the forum could be an area where members have to ask to join in. They would have to understand that they may post a pen that they want critiqued but other opinions may differ from what they expected. No big deal.
I anticipate joining the critique area and really expect to receive comments about a pen that I didn't notice. This is both helpful to all as well as what the forum should be about.[]


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## PenWorks (Oct 28, 2006)

[:0], [], [], [], [8], [B)], [}], [xx(].

enough said.........[]


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## Jim in Oakville (Oct 28, 2006)

> _Originally posted by PenWorks_
> <br />[:0], [], [], [], [8], [B)], [}], [xx(].
> 
> enough said.........[]



LOL!!!!![]


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## Ron in Drums PA (Oct 28, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Ron Mc_
> <br />It would be a place where pens can be posted where other members can actually tell us what they think.



The problem Ron, is there are a small few who would rather take pot shots at people. 

Take a look at this thread, there are a couple of childish remarks.


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## ctEaglesc (Oct 28, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Ron in Drums PA_
> <br />
> 
> 
> ...


I guess they would only be "pot shots" if they weren't true.
"walking away, whistling a happy tune[]"


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## Ron Mc (Oct 28, 2006)

Ron....Great name by BTW.....please provide the thread.
OK, Let's think about this another way. We are pen turners and artists that treasure the opinions of everyone around us. I hand a pen that I created to a stranger, he will more than likely tell me what I want to hear, "your work is amazing" , "how do you make a pen with such little pieces of wood?" Why will they say this? Because they don't want to hurt our feelings. That is the wonderful thing about human nature. We are not programmed to be critical at all.
YET...The critical comments will help everyone create what I like to call the perfect pen.
When we get right down to it it's not my choice or yours, I just hope that Jeff makes the decision that will assist us in creating the perfect pen![]


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## Ron in Drums PA (Oct 29, 2006)

> _Originally posted by jeff_
> <br />I believe that a critique of a reasonably well-made pen via a photograph is pointless. The technical differences between reasonably well-made and great are extremely hard to see in a photograph, and anything else - shape, grain, shine, etc. is just opinion. Honestly, there aren't that many different ways to execute a standard pen kit on a hunk of wood or plastic.
> 
> Before the critiques discussion came up again, what I was considering was a forum called "The Penturners Laboratory" where we could post our experiments, accidental successes, total flops, work in progress, prototypes, etc. I had not considered that to be a place where we would try to evaluate standard pens for fit and finish.
> ...





To start off I donâ€™t think this type of forum can work. 

Hereâ€™s my take on some rules that may help this work.

1. No flaming, taking of pot shots, or hijacking of threads. Everyone will remain polite at all times. 

a. First offense, polite reminder and comment removed.
b. Second offense, comment removed and one day suspension.<br />
c. Third offense, comment removed and one week suspension.<br />
d. Fourth offense, comment removed andone month suspension.<br />
 
2. Returning to a thread and repeating the offense at any given time will result in a one month suspension.

3. This forum is about sharing. Sharing requires both give and take. When asked, â€œHow did you did that?â€, be prepared to answer. If you donâ€™t want to share, thatâ€™s okay, just use â€œShow Off Your Penâ€ forum. Offenses will be handled the same way as in rule #1.

a. First offense, polite reminder<br />
b. Second offense,  one day suspension.<br />
c. Third offense, one week suspension.<br />
d. Fourth offense, one month suspension.<br />
 The thread/comment may be removed at any time.<br />

4. Clear pictures are a must. Itâ€™s hard enough to give honest feed back if we canâ€™t see what you are doing.


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## cozee (Oct 29, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Skye_
> <br />
> 
> 
> ...



No, it is not the same. First, the process of a husband and wife deciding on what car to buy is one between two people and those two only. And if you or your wife get a chip on your shoulder which causes to to remain undecided on a car thus end up walking everywhere, the problem goes beyond agreement of a car. No, the problem is that here, you are dealing with a person's ego, not an agreement. And those egos are the one who's work is being critiqued and the one giving the critique. And then you have those who think an unfair judgment of another's work was given and off to the races we go. A forum of such would need to be heavily moderated.

I had never participated or even seen the first forum for this but understand that it ended up being shut down due to, uh, disagreements. I see discussion here but also see the formulations of disagreements beginning. So, if even in a thread discussing the re-creation of a said forum, with history repeating itself within the discussion, why should one not expect history to repeat itself within said forum once re-created? 

I have had my airbrush work critiqued by panels and by the public, especially when doing t-shirst and have no choice but to work out in the open for all to see and voice an opinion. I've gotten some pretty tough skin from that and from it I solidily believe it doesn't matter one iota what any one here has to say about my pens if my purpose for them is to market them. The almighty dollar will dictate what I need to do. If I were to market my pens in an area where someone else is already marketing thier pens, then what they have to say beocmes an asset to the marketing of my pens. Now if someone is simply wanting thier ego inflated, well, then simply post them on one of the pen boards and many ooohs and aaahs are easily generated. I myself will compliment a pen I like simply because I like it. If I don't, I won't.

 I have also sat on panels which critqued airbrush artwork on a few occasions. I have to agree that if had I had to critique artwork by simply looking at pictures that a fair assessment of the artwork could not have been given. Only when one can actually see the original, to see the strokes and fluid movements of the airbrush, to see the application of technics, to see the artwork as a whole, one is only seeing what is wanted to be seen. And with pens it would be the same. Photography can hide poor craftsmanship/artwork. And, a quality pen may be in the picture but if the turner isn't as gifted in photography, well, another pitfall to not receiving a fair judging. With viewing photos of what is to be critiqued, about the best anyone can offer is an opinion, not an assessment or judgment. And out of this comes the disagreements and potential for arguments, resentments, and bruised egos.

My opinion was asked of by the initial post which started this thread. I have given it and stand by it. By saying that I do not feel such a forum is necessary, this is not voting, just simply keeping my part of the discussion to a minimum. Easy enough! Hope those who want this forum can do the same!!!!![]

(edited for spelling and grammer, Greg)


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## Mudder (Oct 29, 2006)

> _Originally posted by cozee_
> <br />No, it is not the same. First, the process of a husband and wife deciding on what car to buy is one between two people and those two only. And if you or your wife get a chip on your shoulder which causes to to remain undecided on  a car thus end up walking everywhere, the problem goes beyond agreement of a car. No, the problem is that here, you are dealing with a person's ego, not an agreement. And those egos are the one who's work is being critiqued or the one giving the critique. And then you have those who think an unfair judgment of another's work was given and off to the races we go. A forum of such would need to be heavily moderated.
> 
> I had never participated or even seen the first forum for this but understand that it ended up being shut down due to, uh, disagreements. I see discussion here but also see the formulations of disagreements forming. So, if even in a thread discussing the recreation of a said forum, with history repeating itself within the discussion, why shopuld one not expect history to repeat itself within  said forum once recreated?
> ...



Wow!

Excellent response and I must say that I'm impressed and in agreement.


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## Ron in Drums PA (Oct 29, 2006)

Nice Post Greg


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## Dario (Oct 29, 2006)

My take.

Critique forum is for those who need help to improve their craft.

Though I believe that most of us show the best side of our pen on SOYP as much as possible, I don't think it will be the same if the person who posts a pen for critique is honestly out to improve his craft/art.  I critiquing a pen on a picture is not enough but some crafters will still benefit from it.  Most likely the group who need it most are beginners anyway.  If it helps them then the new forum will be worth the heartache.

I am not saying that seasoned turners will not benefit from it.  New techniques, products, kits, blanks, styles, glue ups, materials, etc. can and will also be submitted but hopefully they will know what to concentrate and ask about.

I am for less forums but I still vote yes to this one.


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## TellicoTurning (Oct 29, 2006)

I am realtively new to this formum and did not see the original "critique" forum and cannot comment on that, but the reason I joined the forum was to learn from other turners, more experienced or more skilled than me.. as pointed out earlier, I generally know what is wrong with my pens as far as fit, finish, etc goes, and I always have my wife to handle and comment on these items... she loves me, but will always point out something that is less than perfect... 

I know that what kit I make, what medium, wood, bone, acryllic, etc I choose is generally my choice depending on what I think will sell... right or wrong.

If the forum can be kept to a "I need some help on this" or "I'm trying something new and having some problems as to whether it will work" or something along these lines.. or "I'm not happy with this, but don't know what excactly is wrong" then the critique might work... Personalities cannot enter into the forum... if we ask for help, we must be ready for the answers.. 

I don't know anyone of this formum personally yet, but I see their work and read all the posts and am beginning to form opinions of the skill levels.  I enjoy the discussions on the threads that are related to the technical aspects of the craft.

Based on this, I do not think we need a new forum when we can do all this in the existing forums..


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## ctEaglesc (Oct 29, 2006)

I'm not sure when to discussion got back to the criques forum,but on page 4 of this thread Jeff posted this:





> _Originally posted by jeff_
> <br />I believe that a critique of a reasonably well-made pen via a photograph is pointless. The technical differences between reasonably well-made and great are extremely hard to see in a photograph, and anything else - shape, grain, shine, etc. is just opinion. Honestly, there aren't that many different ways to execute a standard pen kit on a hunk of wood or plastic.
> 
> Before the critiques discussion came up again, what I was considering was a forum called "The Penturners Laboratory" where we could post our experiments, accidental successes, total flops, work in progress, prototypes, etc. I had not considered that to be a place where we would try to evaluate standard pens for fit and finish.
> ...



I will reiterate this has turned into a vote as opposed to a discussion.
Anyone have any thoughts on the forum Jeff suggested in this post?
The "Penturners Laboratory"?(I think if someone does serious experimenting they would be a pen CRAFTER since so much of experimental work goes far beyond the use of a lathe)


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## Skye (Oct 29, 2006)

You know, I picked up one of Bruce's pens at Bubbasville. It was a corncob pen, I looked at it, noticed there was some scalloped areas at the upper and lower half's joint. I told him I saw it, told him how he could avoid it.

Considering the posts here, I probably should have been hit in the jaw. Believe it or not, he didnâ€™t. <b>That</b>'s pretty much what the critiques forum in a nutshell.

If you want a critique, post in that forum.

If you want a pat on the back, post in the SOYP forum.

I donâ€™t see what's so complicated about it.


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## cozee (Oct 29, 2006)

> I donâ€™t see what's so complicated about it.



Bruce is a proven skilled artist. Most who are at his level have received so much in the way of critiques and critisms, they know the difference. You did well. You pointed out a flaw and offered up a way to correct it. And apparently not in a self-serving manner. That is a true critique. Most however offer up nothing more than a critism and if they do offer a way of correction, it is done in such a way that thier way is the only way. Many, many times, the difference between a critique and a critism is how it is offered. And then much also relies upon the character of the one receiving the critique. You had it easy.

I still don't think we need such a forum but if done, I think there needs to be a panel selected by a majority vote of IAP board members to do the critiques. Leaving the critiquing open to anyone and everyone is leaving the door open to the past.

No voting, just discussing!![8D]


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## ctEaglesc (Oct 29, 2006)

"I still don't think we need such a forum but if done, I think there needs to be a panel selected by a majority vote of IAP board members to do the critiques. Leaving the critiquing open to anyone and everyone is leaving the door open to the past."



The IAP board was disbanded alsmost 2 years ago.


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## Rifleman1776 (Oct 29, 2006)

> _Originally posted by ctEaglesc_
> <br />"I still don't think we need such a forum but if done, I think there needs to be a panel selected by a majority vote of IAP board members to do the critiques. Leaving the critiquing open to anyone and everyone is leaving the door open to the past."
> 
> 
> ...



Wouldn't that be a similar format to the PMG?[:0]


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## Skye (Oct 29, 2006)

> _Originally posted by cozee_
> Bruce is a proven skilled artist.



Not Bruce Boone..... not that the other Bruce isnt skilled, lol


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## cozee (Oct 29, 2006)

> _Originally posted by ctEaglesc_
> <br />"I still don't think we need such a forum but if done, I think there needs to be a panel selected by a majority vote of IAP board members to do the critiques. Leaving the critiquing open to anyone and everyone is leaving the door open to the past."
> 
> 
> ...



By board members I am speaking of the registered members of this message _board_. 



> Not Bruce Boone..... not that the other Bruce isnt skilled, lol



My bad[:I]!! But even face to face critiquing will work far better for emotional communication is involved. Here on the internet, the downfall of it's communication, is it's inability to convey emotion, the usage of vocal tone, to convey intent with typical communication. Yes, we have a mydraid of emoticons and we can write in CAPS or use of acronymns IMHO. But even with the best use of these they do not come close to measuring up to even meager vocal communication. And when face to face, body language is also a major part of communication, one even emoticons and acronymns cannot replicate. Most misunderstandings, heated discussions, hurt feelings, and name calling stem simply from the fact that there is a high probability of misinterpreting the intention of communication. And chances are good that one can see it on about any board, at about any given time, about anywhere on the web.


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## Skye (Oct 29, 2006)

I somewhat agree, the problem is; Do we let a few people who like children prevent those of us with a stable emotions from getting something we would like to have? Do we let a few bad apples spoil the bunch or do we get control of a single sub-forum?


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## cozee (Oct 29, 2006)

> Do we let a few bad apples spoil the bunch or do we get control of a single sub-forum?



LOL!! I have been asking that same thing about our government for a loooooong time!!!

For a moment, I'll approach it from a different view than I have. If this forum was tightly controlled with critiques coming from only those whom the members of this message board have deemed to be those at the top, or at least a level of craftsmanship where their word is valued, this would provide a viable basis for a trial run. This also what would make it different from the SOYP forum. It would be nice to also see along with the constructive critiques, also a few words on how to possibly rectify the area of concern. Without a shadow of a doubt there will be those who post their work for critique who may wrestle with what they hear but there will also be those who do not post and learn from the other's judgings.

Could it work?? Yes. Would it? That all depends upon those who choose to participate, both those who are nominated for panel placement and those who offer thier submissions.[8D]


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## Mudder (Oct 29, 2006)

Let me throw this out for thought.

What if all pen photo's were sent to a moderator or a selected individual and s/he posted them? The maker of the pen would be anonymous. I realize that a few folks have a distinctive style so if their creation was posted anonymously it would be easy to figure the creator but for the majority it should help to keep personal feelings out of it.

Perhaps the moderator(s) could be rotated on a monthly basis?


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## Skye (Oct 29, 2006)

Doesnt make sense to me to rotate them. That's like everyone serving as a priest for confession once every few months.


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## Mudder (Oct 30, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Skye_
> <br />Doesnt make sense to me to rotate them. That's like everyone serving as a priest for confession once every few months.



What doesn't make sense to me is your comparisons to confession or folks who cannot agree on a car. What do those things have to do with bringing back a forum that has failed?


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## DocStram (Oct 30, 2006)

And another suggestion ..... Jeff revives the Critique Forum .... members post pictures and relevant data (kit, wood, finish, etc)....  whomever wants to critique the pen can ... BUT, _<b>all critiques are sent as pm's to the penmaker</b>_. None of the critiques are made public.


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## Dario (Oct 30, 2006)

> _Originally posted by DocStram_
> <br />And another suggestion ..... Jeff revives the Critique Forum .... members post pictures and relevant data (kit, wood, finish, etc)....  whomever wants to critique the pen can ... BUT, _<b>all critiques are sent as pm's to the penmaker</b>_. None of the critiques are made public.



This way you will be helping only one person.  Most times a critique benefits a lot at the same time (if done right)...PM kinda defeats the purpose of the forum don't you think?


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## JimGo (Oct 30, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Dario_
> <br />
> 
> 
> ...


I agree that there is a strong advantage to making the critiques public.  However, if potential public acrimony is the biggest concern preventing the opening of the forum, posting the pictures and being able to get private feedback, especially feedback from members who you weren't expecting to comment, is better than limiting the number of people from whom you solicit critiques and limiting the number of people able to see your pen (as would be the case if you were to E-mail a select set of people).


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## DocStram (Oct 30, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Dario_
> <br />
> 
> 
> ...



I agree Dario .... but, it would be better than no forum. 

Although I really liked that idea eagle presented ... the Experimental Forum.


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## Skye (Oct 30, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Mudder_
> <br />
> 
> 
> ...



It's not rocket science. 

If A and B cannot make an important decision because one of them acts like a child, it's doing them no favor to just drop it all together. 

If enough people act like idiots on IAP, is that just cause to shut down the IAP, just like shutting down the idea of this subforum?

Confession. Jim is mod in January. He knows who's pen is who. Bob in Feb, Marvin in March, and on and on 50 times. Now we have a ton of people who all have secrets. Yeah, that seems like a super idea.


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## Mudder (Oct 30, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Skye_
> <br />It's not rocket science.
> 
> If A and B cannot make an important decision because one of them acts like a child, it's doing them no favor to just drop it all together.
> ...



Well, 

Your reply does well to illustrate my point Skye.

In many cases both A and B acted like children, the critiques forum has proven that so I believe shutting it down was the best thing to do. Quite truthfully, I believe the question of what am I goung to have for dinner is infinately more important than whether or not the critiques forum will be reopened

Now as to confession.... I am not a practicing catholic but I do know that the preists are transferred around every once in a while.

However, I did go back and re read Eagle's earlier post and I believe that a forum with the guidelines based on what he suggested has a possibility. This thread has proven that there are some of us that stand firmly on opposite sides of this issue and I firmly believe that bringing back the critiques forum the way it was is a recipe for more polarization of this group.


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## Skye (Oct 30, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Mudder_Quite truthfully, I believe the question of what am I goung to have for dinner is infinately more important than whether or not the critiques forum will be reopened



Have you posted numerous times across the span of a few days on another forum concerning what you're having for dinner tonight or are you grossly exaggerating?


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## Mudder (Oct 30, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Skye_
> <br />
> 
> 
> ...



sorry,

I missed two little words....

Quite truthfully, I believe the question of what am I going to have for dinner is infinately more important to me than whether or not the critiques forum will be reopened

Feel better now Skye?


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## chisel (Oct 30, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Mudder_
> 
> 
> Quite truthfully, I believe the question of what am I going to have for dinner is infinately more important to me than whether or not the critiques forum will be reopened



Mmmmm, dinner....

*does Homer drool*

What is for dinner tonight? I had pizza. []

My opinion on the new forum....is....that...it doesn't matter to me one way or another. 

It seems like a lot of fussing over very little.


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## Skye (Oct 30, 2006)

Better, yes. Because youre making less and less sense as this goes on, which makes me happy.

Forum: Not important at all to you, but you post a lot about it. OOoooookay.


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## Randy_ (Oct 31, 2006)

Skye:  Ever consider that you might be part of the problem rather than part of the solution??


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## Skye (Oct 31, 2006)

Yes, I considered that but quickly dismissed it.


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## ctEaglesc (Oct 31, 2006)

So much for the intellegent discussion about improving the site


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## Mudder (Oct 31, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Randy__
> <br />Skye:  Ever consider that you might be part of the problem rather than part of the solution??






> _Originally posted by Skye_
> <br />Yes, I considered that but quickly dismissed it.




Skye,

Lets talk about your signature line for a moment.

Isnâ€™t it true that when Johnny opened The Pen Shop your signature line read something like â€œThe Pen Shop.net â€¦.Leave your thin skin at the doorâ€? Isnâ€™t it also true that you were told by admin to change it because it was against the policy of this site? 

Given those facts; and your current signature line wouldnâ€™t it also be true that YOU are one of those childish bad apples with a chip on your shoulder that you have said should not be allowed to post in that forum anyway?


So let's ask the question again.

Skye:  Ever consider that you might be part of the problem rather than part of the solution?


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## Ron Mc (Oct 31, 2006)

LOL....Boy I hope Jeff understands that this thread, now, has nothing to do with the potential content of a critiques forum![][]


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## jeff (Oct 31, 2006)

Thanks to all for your input. I've read this entire topic several times, consulted with the moderators, and had conversations (email, phone) with several widely-respected and well-liked members. The universal opinion is that at this time, a separate critiques forum does not add any value.

I'll make some changes to SOYP to encourage critiques there. I'll post details...

I think this topic has run it's course and is now in the weeds so I'm locking it.


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## Skye (Oct 31, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Mudder_
> Given those facts; and your current signature line wouldnâ€™t it also be true that YOU are one of those childish bad apples with a chip on your shoulder that you have said should not be allowed to post in that forum anyway?
> 
> So let's ask the question again.
> ...



I couldent think of another sig. Everything I thought of sounded lame. Hence, insert lame sig here.


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## DocStram (Oct 31, 2006)

I can't speak for the rest of our IAP membership, but I'm uncomfortable when I'm around situations involving conflict.  Sometimes, it's just better to just walk away .... or in this case, to not even bother to respond. Not responding, is, in fact, a response. 

Being a "community of penturners" means everybody working together for the common good. Frankly, bickering does not help us achieve a "common good".


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## gerryr (Oct 31, 2006)

Some people enjoy bickering, especially when they can make seemingly innocuous statements that are really designed to start it all.  Then they claim innocence and try to hide behind a guise of "self-defense" while they rail at anyone who takes issue with them.  What it's all about is just pumping up their own ego.  It's a pretty pitiful existence if that's how they get their kicks.


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