# Trying to go kitless



## Freethinker (Nov 22, 2014)

Hi everyone;

I just bought the taps and dies I need to begin to try going kitless. 

In my market, (I sell locally) virtually no one wants a fountain pen, but prefer rollerball.

My question is, will alumilite (or maybe other plastics) hold up in use for the 'nose cone', or front end of the pen?  

I ordered some black alumilite blanks for that purpose, from PTownsubbie, but after reading some of the commentary here at IAP (concerning making that part out of metal) I am unsure if the alumilite will take the strain of writing.

Any advise you can give would be appreciated. Thanks.


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## lorbay (Nov 22, 2014)

I have got some from P Town just for this purpose. Works just fine.
Lin.


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## Bruce markwardt (Nov 23, 2014)

I use alumilite.  Works fine.


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## skiprat (Nov 23, 2014)

I have no doubt that Alumilite or many other plastics will be good enough. BIC have been using it for years. 
For a RB, the precise depth of the step drilled holes in the nib determines how far the tip of the refill sticks out. If you have the ability to do this and still to thread the parts, then why not use metal like aluminium?
It's not easy doing the step drilling and still keeping a nice tapered shape to the nib. IMHO, blunt round nibs don't look good.
Good luck in your endeavours


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## Harley2001 (Nov 23, 2014)

Richard Greenwald sales just the nose cone.


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## Freethinker (Nov 25, 2014)

Thanks guys.

I was almost certain I had seen, somewhere in my surfing, a place selling those nose cones! I had been looking but could not find it.  I'll check Richard out. 

I had also thought about trying aluminum. I made a couple of aluminum pens a couple of years back, and liked the way they turned out very much. I'll have to see if i can round up some suitably sized aluminum. 

Meanwhile.......another problem....

While waiting for the alumilite, I went ahead and began experimenting with the threading. Ugg. Not so good. 

I read a tutorial that said to turn a tenon approx 11.8 mm for a 12mm die.  

I did this, sprayed the die and the tenon with cooking oil for lubricant, and successfully turned some threads.....kinda.....but they were very 'shallow'.

I then turned a larger tenon, to around 11.96mm or so.   Slightly better results,...at the back end closest to the pen body, the threads look acceptable, but at the beginning of the tenon, the threads were still a bit shallow and rough looking. 

I then --and i think this might have been a mistake-- loosened the screw that held the adjustable die open, and tried to re-turn the threaded tenon, thinking the decreased diameter of the die would now leave full depth threads the whole way.

Disappointingly, the threads looked pretty much the same; well formed at the back half, shallow and poorly formed near the beginning. 

The tenon screws into the threaded hole in the other half of the pen body, but is very sloppy and loose, and barely makes contact until it is halfway in, and then tries to cross thread itself.  (my tap and dies are single start, until I get it figured out and begin successfully making kitless pens) 

Possible problems that I, as a rookie, think might have caused this.......the die I bought is a somewhat cheap one, that says made in China.  

(I still think the actual problem is likely in the operator of the die, lol, but I'm not sure. )

The die holder is homemade by me, out of pecan, sliding on a 1/2" steel pin punch held in a collet chuck. It is fairly tight feeling and operates smoothly, but is probably not as 100% accurate at holding the die as the sliding die holder from littlemachineshop would be.  (I think i should order one from them) 

My next attempt, when i have more time to get back in the shop, is to turn a tenon a full 12mm in diameter and maybe 15mm long instead of 10mm long, tighten the adjustment screw in the die and see if I can get full threads on the last 10mm and then part off the first (poorly threaded) 5mm extra after the threading is done.  ?? 

I am not discouraged in the slightest....I am willing to try as many ways as possible to get this thing figured out...but if anyone can spot something i may be possibly doing wrong here, I'd appreciate any info or advice. Thanks again.


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## DaveM (Nov 30, 2014)

After you use the die to cut the threads, turn it around and use the back side of the die to finish the threads.  Taps and dies usually have a taper to ease the starting of the threads.  For taps, you would want a bottom tap to finish the bottom of the threads, as a standard tap takes a finer cut for the first few turns.  (If you look at the tap, you can see the taper in the threads.)  The die does the same thing, but it is harder to see inside of the die.  By turning the die around, you will finish the threads near the shoulder with the full cut part of the die.

After you are fully cutting your threads this way, you can find the perfect size to turn the tenon to.  The fit and finish will be much better.  

Good luck,
Dave


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## Displaced Canadian (Nov 30, 2014)

Rollerball tips from Alumilite is possible. They have a tendency to be a little blunt. Also the nib to pen section needs to be fairly thick to stand up to a dropping or two. As for the bad threads at the bottom, I cut about an 1/8 tenon at the bottom to remove the partial threads. Not having things threaded all the way will make fitting easier.


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## mredburn (Nov 30, 2014)

First question what material are you trying to thread?  That could make a big difference,
Second, Your homemade die holder how tight does the die fit in and does it have a shoulder the die seats against? Do you have 2 set screws to hold the die in the die holder? if any of this is out of alignment with the axis of the guide rod you will get bad results.  More information would be helpful.  What thread pitch are trying to use? How large did you drill the hole? Have you checked the alignment of the headstock and tailstock? Did you chamfer the end of the tenon before trying to thread it?


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## Freethinker (Dec 1, 2014)

Thanks to all for the responses.

I realized afterward that i left out a lot of info, per mredburn's questions. 

//First question what material are you trying to thread? That could make a big difference//

I think that might be a large part of the problem i'm having. It is an acrylic blank, (the Metallic Red Blank from exoticblanks) that seems a tad on the 'brittle side' for turning threads onto.  It is far less resilient feeling that many other acrylics I have turned, and does not really give off the super long sort of ribbons, when using a skew, that some other plastics do. 


//Second, Your homemade die holder how tight does the die fit in and does it have a shoulder the die seats against? //

The die does have a tiny bit of play side-to-side, but it seats against a solid and square shoulder. 

//Do you have 2 set screws to hold the die in the die holder? if any of this is out of alignment with the axis of the guide rod you will get bad results. //

That may be the crux of this whole thing. 

It --the die-- has only one set screw holding it, so it is undoubtedly a couple of thousandths off center and _that_ may be the reason for my poor results.  (I have one of the good quality die holders from littlemachineshop on the way.) 

//More information would be helpful. What thread pitch are trying to use? How large did you drill the hole? //

The die is a 12mm X .75.   As to drilled hole size, I am doing okay with the female threads, no complaints.  It is the male threads that are puzzling me in that they are (fairly) good at the bottom of the tenon but very poorly formed at the beginning of the tenon, when the tenon is the same diameter all the way.  

I have been experimenting with turning ever larger tenon diameters and have been getting slightly better threads, .... but it is odd --to me at least-- that one person with a 12mmX.75 die could get proper threads on a tenon turned to 11.8mm (or so) , but that I am having to turn the tenon at least 12.10mm-12.25mm for the threads to be formed even close to usable.  

Even my best efforts --when screwed together--  have a bit of a loose fit, but I have heard people saying here that that is not too uncommon with acrylics being threaded with single start dies/taps.  

Headstock and tailstock are well aligned, and yes I always turn a chamfer on the end. 

Again, I am very thankful to all of you for all the help and the advice.  

Everything has been pretty much on hold over the Thanksgiving holiday what with a huge family gathering going on, but i hope to get in the shop tomorrow and complete SOME kind of usable kitless pen.  Will probably try a different sort of acrylic (colored alumilite or lava bright or Italian resin) and see if that makes a difference.


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## mredburn (Dec 1, 2014)

THe Acrylic blank is a huge factor in your problem,I would say all of it. Larger pitch threads like 1mm or larger put more stress on the material as they cut deeper larger grooves. The hole question was to determine if you were drilling too large a hole helping the male threads to cross thread. If you can get some brass or aluminum even a short piece to try and thread it will probably show that your doing it right.  good luck and dont give up.


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## ClutchCargo (Dec 3, 2014)

Freethinker,
I would like to try threading my own upper and lower barrels for a custom kitless rollerball pen. Could you provide a source for purchasing the tap and die sets in these larger diameter sizes for pen barrels? Thanks.


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## mredburn (Dec 3, 2014)

Victor Machinery - Metalworking tools and supplies


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## Freethinker (Dec 5, 2014)

ClutchCargo said:


> Freethinker,
> I would like to try threading my own upper and lower barrels for a custom kitless rollerball pen. Could you provide a source for purchasing the tap and die sets in these larger diameter sizes for pen barrels? Thanks.



Like mredburn said, I bought mine from Victor Machinery. 

The tap holder i had to order separately, from LittleMachineShop....it just came yesterday, and i have not had a chance to use it yet.

Also, i'd like to give a HUGE thanks to mredburn for multiple responses and in trying to help in so many ways. 

I highly recommend him and his videos, ClutchCargo, for a ton of info on properly creating kitless pens.


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## farmer (Dec 11, 2014)

*Getting creative*



Freethinker said:


> ClutchCargo said:
> 
> 
> > Freethinker,
> ...


 

Hi Freethinker

I can only assume that you own a wood turning lathe and not a engine lathe...

It might be time for you to buy a small engine lathe and make your own parts if you don't want to buy pen kits or salvage parts from other pens.

Or job it out to a local machine shop....................

Farmer


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## Freethinker (Dec 11, 2014)

farmer said:


> Hi Freethinker
> 
> I can only assume that you own a wood turning lathe and not a engine lathe...
> 
> ...



Hi Farmer,  (I happen to be in my 31st year of farming and was raised on a farm)

Yep, I had previously looked at some small metal lathes, but wasn't really sure i'd make enough things on one to justify the expense. 

Also, although I am mechanically inclined and was a welder and fabricator before I began farming, I wasn't sure how steep the learning curve would be on a metal lathe. 

Thanks for the advice though....I may see what the local machine shop would charge, but for no more than can sell a pen for here locally (I live in a fairly poor area of the country) I'm thinking their price they'd charge per piece would probably be kinda high for me. 

I really think i'm going to go with what skiprat said and try to make some aluminum nose cones on my wood lathe. 

I have a Jet 2014VS, and a very good collet chuck set and have made a few aluminum pens before.

[note; skiprat is my favorite penmaker here. I would love to be half as good as him someday. Just saying.)


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## mredburn (Dec 11, 2014)

The small metal lathes do make it easier, but it can be done without to much hassle on a good wood lathe. Production runs would not be fun.  I doubt other than as a favor you can get shop time cheap enough to justify it. Perhaps keep an eye out for a good used one at a bargain price if your so inclined. Most of us with metal lathes still use the tap and die set up to cut the threads. Easier than setting up the lathe to cut one thread less than a 1/2 in long.


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## Chrisjan (Dec 12, 2014)

I am in the same boat - got my tap and die from MrRedburn in this past week... That with some smaller taps and dies and the collet chuck have been waiting for me to try my hand at kitless - will see what pops out next week! And yes I just have wood lathes


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## farmer (Dec 15, 2014)

Freethinker said:


> farmer said:
> 
> 
> > Hi Freethinker
> ...


___________________________________________________________


 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1IDHIcyHLY

Farmer.


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