# What is a quality pen?



## Daniel (Jun 1, 2009)

This thread is intended to be a discussion of various thoughts anyone has had over time about
1. what says to you that a pen is a Top Quality pen?
2. how do the "Kit Pens" we make meat or fall short in those areas?
3. any ideas on how to make "Kit Pens" more Top Quality?

My first comment has to do with a recent experience.
I had the transmission fail in a pen I have carried and used daily for a couple of years. basically the transmission is simply stripped out. when this happened I had one overwhelming response to it. "this is not how I would expect a Top Quality pen to preform". I also have thought a lot about how the transmission is made. the materials it is made of and wondering if there is a better, more durable design. If not, why not?

would a better transmission be made of Stainless steel, or a stronger more durable type of plastic. exactly how should a top quality transmission preform? single, double action or both? How long should it be expected to last ( I think it should be a lifetime in a top quality pen)

this sort of conversation can range from everything from refills to threaded parts

Should parts be threaded or press fit?

Basically if you have ever been making a pen and had anything that made you think "This would be better if" it is not about having answers. it is about identifying weak spots in what we now have. maybe some day some improvements may come of it.

In fact many past issues have resulted in just that. Lou's Fountain Pen Nibs would have to be one spot light example.

This is an invitation to nit pick the tar out of every part of every kit. who knows maybe someone will have a fix for it.

for me I want a ceramic and stainless steel transmission that will still be working 250 years from now just as smoothly as the day I installed it. I want it to be double action with a definite positive position for both left and right twist but Center retracted position as well. I also want it to fit adapters that allow it to be used on any pen kit available so I can buy transmissions in bulk and all the pen kit needs to include is the adapter.
I also want it to be threaded like the cigar pen. sorry press fit is just cheesy in my book. It also needs to be adjustable to allow for differences in length of various refills. 
I don't want much there is only one thing on my wish list.

Everything.

He HE.
have some fun with this. it is not a flame your favorite supplier topic. it is an imagine if.


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## jkeithrussell (Jun 1, 2009)

To me, you can't expect most of the kit pens to last forever.  Slim, Euro, Cigar, Polaris, Sierra, etc., are nice, but they simply can't be expected to hold up to daily use forever.  When you get to Baron/Jr. Gent/etc., you should expect longer use and better quality parts. 

As for improvements, the fit on the components on the less-than-high end-kits is not good enough.  The clips start to move around or the nib starts turning in place way too soon.  I use a thin bead of epoxy when I can remember to, but this shouldn't be necessary.


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## Daniel (Jun 1, 2009)

Epoxy or CA has become a common solution for clips. one thought I have on that fix is that it creates another problem if not done right if it ever come to dis assembly of the pen. I have tied flies in the past. The idea of applying glue with the tip of a needle was not a new idea to me. It is a great way to get the glue only where you want it.


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## jkeithrussell (Jun 1, 2009)

One other problem with CA/Epoxy is that if you use even a smidge too much, it pools inside the tube at the bottom of the cap.  This will cause a bad fit on some kits.  I went to Epoxy because the CA ruins any plating it happens to touch.  Plus you can direct a bead of epoxy with a toothpick easier than trying to manage CA.  

I have disassembled several caps that were reinforced with epoxy using the HF transfer punches and didn't have much trouble.  I just got my punch set and have been knocking pieces out whenever I possibly can.  What fun.


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## Daniel (Jun 1, 2009)

OK general warning to anyone attending a Texas penturners gathering. Don't let Keith anywhere near the pens. You will have nothing but boxes of parts left.


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## wood-of-1kind (Jun 1, 2009)

for me I want a ceramic and stainless steel transmission that will still be working 250 years from now just as smoothly as the day I installed it. I want it to be double action with a definite positive position for both left and right twist but Center retracted position as well. 


Daniel, you pretty well have described all of my requirents with your statement with the "exception" of indicating that I do not want to pay a "lifetime" of per$onal $aving$. A better balance between what is being charged for vs. reliability/dependability/life span of parts. For the most part (no pun intended) we get what we pay for.


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## Daniel (Jun 1, 2009)

To true Peter, But I have also witnessed an expensive pen kit jump from $12.00 to $45.00.
I am not at all sure what the cost of such a transmission would really be.
would you pay $2000 for components that would make a pen you could actually sell for $12,000? I wouldn't but the reasons why are complicated. basically I don't want to live in the world where you sell $12,000 pens.

$200 in components for a  $1000 pen. that sounds like fun and actually I have done that a couple of times.

For me this topic is probably more about the $250 or $300 pen that is worth it in every detail. Ceramic and Stainless steel is probably going over the top just a bit.

OK so I agree that 250 years is asking a bit much. but what about 5 years. for me that is acceptable for what I consider a lower end pen. 10 years, I expect that much out of my shop equipment. maybe even 25 years, heck they can make your roof out of stuff expected to last that long. but mechanical parts??? probably getting back to the Ceramic and Stainless Steel at that point.


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## aggromere (Jun 1, 2009)

I have made at least one of almost every kind of kit.  I don't make any slimlines though.  I just think they look too much like an inexpensive store bought pen and I have never been a fan of the typical cross type pen.

I have made quite a number of sierra type pens.  Almost all of them rattle.  If you tap them against your hand you can hear parts contacting each other.  I find that annoying but don't know how to fix it.

I mostly have settled in on gent's and jr. gent's.  I think they are of good quality and lend themselves to customization.

For one piece pens I make cigars and ultra cigars.  I don't have enough of a track record with them to comment on failure.

I have had a few emperor, lotus and imperials that have loose gold inlaid bands.

Although I have no idea how to go about it I would like to see some vendor offer components rather than kits.   

I think there must be someway to standardize sizes so that pen makers could make small, medium and large pens from the components.

The perfect supplier for me would offer:

1.  Finials.  Full flattop, Full roundtop and empty (so you could put in your own finial decoration.  could be a custom made makersmark, chabochan, wood, acrylic, etc).  They would come in high grade silver, platinum and gold plating.  They could come in two styles; screw on and pressure fit.  The screw ons could be made so you could use them in one piece twist pens if you wanted.

2.  Clips.  I often think this is the most overlooked part of pen making.  It seems it would be easy for someone to make different style clips.   I have seen some web sites for manufacturers that make clips, just not ones I would want.  The style of clips could be almost endless.

3.  Centerbands.    A lot of centerbands come in pieces anyway so i think it would lend itself to a lot of customization.  You could have one piece smooth centerbands, one piece decorative centerbands, a variety of centerband sized rings so you could make your own from the parts.  I'm not exactly sure how you would do this on the one piece twist pens but for two piece pens it seems like it would work well.

4.  Barrel end fixtures.  The jr gent, sedona and other similar kits have a ring that fits onto the ends when you are pressing the parts together to assemble the pen.  These could be made of metal with different plating as well as some type of resin.  They could be smooth or have the lip on them like the kits do.  Again, a big variety could be available.

5.  End Caps.  If you are not making a closed end pen you would need an end cap.  Just like the finials these could come as solid, open, roundtop or flattop or something between.

6.  Couplers.  Simple mechanical components that could be used at either end of either barrel.  They could be threaded internally.

7.  Nib ends.  Sometimes I want a black resin nib end and sometimes a metal plated one.  But I cant choose because each kits comes with a standard.  I think this is an area that could really advance the look of pens.  They could come in different platings on metal or black resin or colored resin.  They could be shapped in a variety of ways.  Also, it seems you could make some from resin that could be turned to a custom shape if you wanted.

8.  Mechanics.  The mechanical process of the twist pens is above my pay grade and dont really know what you would do.  Although I would like to make a cigar pen with no centerband I dont have the ability to cut down the existing ones to keep the mechanics and make a useable pen.

Well, sorry this went on so long and my comments are worthe exactly what you paid for them.  But I would really like to see a way for everyone to elevate their pen making and I think universal customizable parts would be the way to go.


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## Russianwolf (Jun 1, 2009)

Daniel, Let's think about this in terms of cars. Do you expect a "top of the line" car to last forever? Okay, how about 50 years? 25? 10? 5? before you start running into wearing issues. 

When you are talking about mechanical wear, nothing lasts forever. Most things won't even last 5 years with regular use, and those things are usually lubed like crazy. And the lube is even recommended to be replaced at regular intervals in most of those. 

So for a $10 pen kit, I think a tranny that lasts 2-3 years is probably pretty good. Fountain and Rollerballs are better since they don't use a tranny. I'm curious how long the Click pens will hold up (I am using one of Aaron's clicks in my office, so it'll get some heavy abuse). 

Now I know some people don't like the sounds made by a fresh tranny. They hear the noise and want it to be quiet and flush it with something to quiet the sticky, gritty sound. What they are doing is flushing the grease out of the tranny, effectively shortening it's life. Design flaw? no. Just being over sensetive to the sound.


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## ed4copies (Jun 1, 2009)

Mike,

I have used that "car analogy" often in selling copiers.  People have reminded me that their copier does NOT have to put up with bumpy roads and other factors of environment.  More important in this discussion, a car has more moving parts in the steering column than our pens have in their entirety.

Short of collisions, don't steering columns last, pretty much, forever???


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## Russianwolf (Jun 1, 2009)

ed4copies said:


> Mike,
> 
> I have used that "car analogy" often in selling copiers.  People have reminded me that their copier does NOT have to put up with bumpy roads and other factors of environment.  More important in this discussion, a car has more moving parts in the steering column than our pens have in their entirety.
> 
> Short of collisions, don't steering columns last, pretty much, forever???



when properly lubed, yes. When cleaned and not lubed, nope.


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## ed4copies (Jun 1, 2009)

Uh-oh


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## Daniel (Jun 1, 2009)

yes I do think a better transmission can be made, even a very long lasting one. But the thread is not about can it be done. it is about how could the materials we now have be improved. 
a clip that stays where you put it is an improvement,  even if you have no idea how to make it stay put.


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## arioux (Jun 1, 2009)

Cars are made to be maintained, not pens.  When properly taken care of, a car can last a longtime.  Models T are still around because they could be restored.  Pen that would be easy to disasemble, with spare parts available could be around for a long time.

A Mt-Blanc tranny can still jam, a clip can brake but it can be fix because the reseller has all the parts.  With kits, most of the time, you have to buy a whole kit for a spare parts and that if you don't damage it more when you disasemble it

Hey... we could sell extended garantee and maintenance programs (like with copiers) )


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## ed4copies (Jun 1, 2009)

Careful, Alfred!!!!

I'll send a "copier curse" to you, THEN you'll watch your typing!!!


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## chriselle (Jun 1, 2009)

I've never had a failure but I think the whole concept of using press parts might lend to a high failure possibility 10 or 20 years down the road.  It's always a concern.


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## nava1uni (Jun 1, 2009)

You can make the clips stop turning if you just have a tiny tab on it and make a very tiny similar notch in the top of the barrel.  It will be hidden under the clip when it is assembled.  It is similar to the notch that is on a bearing washer on a car.  It has a groove that the tab fits into and it stops it from moving.


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## ldb2000 (Jun 1, 2009)

All the best wishes for better kits are going to continue to fall on deaf ears , the kit manufacturers are not listening . They upgrade the looks of the pens in hopes that no one will catch them using cheaper parts . 
A perfect example is the Sierra . They have made them look more elegant but have they fixed the design flaw with their transmission mounting ? ... Nope .
If you want a better pen , build it your self !


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## jttheclockman (Jun 2, 2009)

Daniel said:


> yes I do think a better transmission can be made, even a very long lasting one. But the thread is not about can it be done. it is about how could the materials we now have be improved.
> a clip that stays where you put it is an improvement, even if you have no idea how to make it stay put.


 

I agree about the trannies can be improved. The clip problem is a simple fix but do not see the companies wanting to do anything. For the clip thing all they have to do is make it keyed. Either key it with the barrel or the cap. A little tab is all that is needed on any kit that has a clip. 

I basically asked this question awhile back when I asked what was some of the biggest problems we see with the various kits we put together. Hopefully we could have passed this on to the higher ups. But the response was quite low so I let it go. 

I think each kit has its pros and cons and with soooooo many kits out there and no standarization the problems will continue to rise. I think when we pay top dollar for a kit we should get more than fancy jewlery or better platings. You still get the same old trannys and the same clips and same refills and same couplers. 

Having an object such as a pen last a life time would be hard to do unless it sees limited use. Pens are made to be used. I will use the auto analogy to make this point too, if we made cars that last a life time we would not need to make so many cars and we would not need so many workers. So if we made pens that last a life time we would only need a few of the great turners here and I would not be needed:crying:

Good topic though.


I see as I was typing Cindy had the same simple solution to the clip idea. If two simple minds like ours can figure it out why cant the manufactorers do so. Sorry Cindy about the simple mind remark but you got the idea.


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## ngeb528 (Jun 2, 2009)

I believe we have several suppliers that frequent this forum.  I'm hoping that one or two of them will take the initiative to talk to the manufacturers about our concerns.

I think it's reasonable to expect that a transmission and the plating will last 5-10 years.  

I don't expect my car to last a lifetime but I do expect that, if it's taken care of according to the specs, that it should last 5-10 years without major items breaking.  If you're spending that much for a vehicle, you shouldn't have to put $5000+ into it to fix pourly designed parts.

When I sell a pen, I want to feel comfortable that the customer will be very satisfied with it for many years.  I know people like George (Old Wrangler) gives his customers a guarantee on the workmanship.  He's putting his reputation at risk if the parts fail.

I want to put out a quality product that will entice my customers to refer their family, friends and co-worker's to me for pens. 

I don't think the expectations that have been posted here are unreasonable.


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## Daniel (Jun 2, 2009)

the real problem with a loose clip is that he cap did not stay pressed in tight. I do like the notch or keyed ideas though but if the cap still works loose enough you are back to square one. As I see it that fix is still glue. I have noticed that once the cap does start moving it is a problem that becomes worse. basically a weakness in press fit parts.

My thinking heads toward threaded end caps at that point. Locktite for the threads and that sort of thing.

thank about it, there is a chunk of metal down the center of the pen. why should it be a thin little tube? how about a real piece of hardware that can have some machining done to it?

I don't think that every pen from the slimline on up should be built like this. there is a market for the $30.00 pen. But what about a Statsman? The Sierra even?


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## Russianwolf (Jun 2, 2009)

Daniel said:


> thank about it, there is a chunk of metal down the center of the pen. why should it be a thin little tube? how about a real piece of hardware that can have some machining done to it?



Weight? That thin little tube weighs alot to some people. Now if you go adding a tube thick enough to have threading done to it, you are adding more weight.


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## bitshird (Jun 2, 2009)

ldb2000 said:


> All the best wishes for better kits are going to continue to fall on deaf ears , the kit manufacturers are not listening . They upgrade the looks of the pens in hopes that no one will catch them using cheaper parts .
> A perfect example is the Sierra . They have made them look more elegant but have they fixed the design flaw with their transmission mounting ? ... Nope .
> If you want a better pen , build it your self !



I'm with Butch on this pen, I like the size, shape and looks, But I've had more comegbacks on this pen than any other, I've had 2 slimlines come back (because I was smart, I squirted wd40 in the tranny to make it smoother) BAD idea,  ! cigar double twist tranny wouldn't stay extended even though you could feel the detente, and 5 or 6 Sierras because they unscrewd from the nib, YES this is the fault of the customer, but they don't understand this, they think you sold them a 45.00 piece of crap. Now I tighten the tranny down with a small pair of nylon jawed pliers, and have them send it back to me for a new refill. 
 I've done several dozen Elegant Beauty's, with no problems, Why cant they make the Sierra the same way?


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## Daniel (Jun 2, 2009)

I am not that familiar with the problem in the Sierra. I have never made one so have not been able to see it for myself. some designs simply are not any good. those for me simply eliminate themselves. there are several pens out there that I do not and will not offer. Not every kit is quality enough for me.


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## DCBluesman (Jun 2, 2009)

Kits, by their very nature, involve trade-offs.  The more bells and whistles, the more trade-offs.  It's the same in most products...like computers and automobiles.

The day of buying custom components and assembling your own is fast approaching.  We have nibs, feeds and housings. Custom clips and center bands are popping up in many different places.  Taps and dies are available, thus eliminating the need for couplers.

Even with all of this, I do not want to make a pen where every component lasts a lifetime.  The costs would be prohibitive.  None of the manufacturers make such a pen, either.  The best companies out there WARRANT their pens but do not GUARANTEE them.  The difference is, they repair or replace free, rather than guaranteeing no problems.

By the way, while I see lots of mention of folks who tire of the mediocrity of kit components, there is not a ground swell of demand for higher quality custom parts.  At least not yet.


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## aggromere (Jun 2, 2009)

I for one would be interested in being able to purchase high quality components for pens.


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## workinforwood (Jun 3, 2009)

I don't worry about it.  I just had a lady call me, her pen broke right in half.  It was a custom kit pen, not just a typical kit.  Don't know how it happened, don't really care.  Told her I'll stop buy next week and pick it up.  Sounds to me like I have to build a brand new one from scratch.  I don't really care about that either, it sounds like fun, although I am a bit busy with a few deadlines right now, but she'll understand because we've done business before.  Problems can be beneficial.  People generally understand that something can go wrong.  What matters is what you do about it.  Will she tell people, my pen broke and he came and picked it up and had to make a brand new one which he then delivered back to me personally from 245 miles away..or will she say my pen broke and he didn't give a crap.  I believe it all comes back on you ten fold.  She will pass the good word, and people will remember me, and my booth will be full of happy spending people!  If a tranny stops working, I just punch it out and stick in another...only takes a minute, and costs me pennies compared to having an angry customer.  I rarely have issues with the trannies anyhow, so why make them cost more so that I have to pay even more when one still can go bad..nothing lasts forever.


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## GouletPens (Jun 3, 2009)

Yeah, there are some issues with the trannies and with some other parts, but all in all, I'm happy with the availability of most kits. I was a little frustrated with the poor design of the Euro SC and wish it was better b/c it was popular, but I just could deal with that pen anymore so I stopped buying them. That's the best message you can send to the manufacturer, stop buying the pens. I wish the tranny was better on the sierra and I wish I didn't have to use epoxy to assemble anything, but really I am overall quite happy and will continue buying the kits I feel are worth the trouble (or at least are once I give them some TLC).:biggrin:

Kitless pens certainly aren't without their problems, either though. I say if you want to sell on 'high quality' pens, go with screw caps. There's just so much less to go wrong on them.


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## thevillageworkshop (Jun 3, 2009)

"Million Dollar Man" parts to me are out of the realm of pen making.  Some may want to keep and use a pen forever, but that really won't happen in the real world.  Most of us sell pens at craft shows or pen shows and the buying public usually buy on impulse. They will probably toss the pen in a drawer, leave it in a hot or cold car and it will crack, they will even use it as a makeshift tool or prybar.  Also the finish will be long gone by the time the transmission wears out.  Who refinishes pens? The plated parts will also be worn or scratched and need replacing, even on expensive kits. Standardized parts will never happen, but if they did I would only want to have to buy 1 size drill bit.


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## Bugware (Jun 4, 2009)

aggromere said:


> I for one would be interested in being able to purchase high quality components for pens.


 
I for two!

Never used cheap kits. Would prefer to buy individual components and build exactly what I want, or the customers wants. Most of the kits have some part that is ugly and badly made. 

Once you have turned a few kits, is it not better to build from your own design than just turn a barrel using someone elses?


Neil


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## johncrane (Jun 4, 2009)

Hmm! l'm thinking a cap less rollerball in acrylic with a Schmidt 8126 refill they say the refill will last's  one year with the cap off,:biggrin:


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## ldb2000 (Jun 4, 2009)

johncrane said:


> Hmm! l'm thinking a cap less rollerball in acrylic with a Schmidt 8126 refill they say the refill will last's one year with the cap off,:biggrin:


 

It's doable , with no problems , just takes a bit of thought 

As for "being able to purchase high quality components for pens." I have a question , what is the difference between this and kits .... you will still be using the same parts as everyone else just mixing them up a bit . 

"Kitless pens certainly aren't without their problems, either though" This is true but you get to decide what problems to avoid and how to avoid them to begin with . You decide how Your design will go together , press fit , glue or threaded .

Transmissions are actually a non issue because in most cases a non modified (not cleaned out) transmission will last for a long time as long as the customer don't abuse it . I use single twist cigar transmissions for almost all of my designs now because I have found these to be the most robust , and most people prefer writing with the parker stlye refills rather then the cross .


I'll say it again , If you want a better pen , build it yourself !


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## Russianwolf (Jun 5, 2009)

ldb2000 said:


> Transmissions are actually a non issue because in most cases a non modified (not cleaned out) transmission will last for a long time as long as the customer don't abuse it . I use single twist cigar transmissions for almost all of my designs now because I have found these to be the most robust , and most people prefer writing with the parker stlye refills rather then the cross .
> 
> 
> I'll say it again , If you want a better pen , build it yourself !



Hey Butch, how do you go about using the tranny since it's a threaded design? Were you able to find a matching tap?

Thanks,


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## ldb2000 (Jun 6, 2009)

Mike , for the pens that need removable transmissions , to replace the refill , I use the threaded coupler from a cigar kit (I don't use many that way) . Most of the kitless pens I make the transmission just press fits into the aluminum core tube I use and I lock it in place with a drop of red loctite or epoxy and the nib end gets threaded to replace the refill .


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## Daniel (Jun 6, 2009)

Butch, I would add that the quality of the cigar tranny depends on where you get them.
I have not gotten them from everyone but so far CSUSA has had the best.
Now before everyone jumps up to smack me around cause I didn't say Woodcraft or anyone else also has good Cigar trannies. I did not say they didn't either. For the most part I was not real happy with the ones I got from Rizheng. and I got lots of them of course


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## Daniel (Jun 6, 2009)

I have a Parker pen and Pencil set that I have been looking at.
the Pen is a click ballpoint and I am not able to remove the clicker mechanism.
otherwise they are actually very simply made. 
the body parts for both pen and pencil are exactly the same. the only way to tell the pencil from the pen is that the clicker button has been changed just a bit and the nib.

otherwise the body has been drilled out just large enough for the refill to fit (it still rattles just a bit though) the set is basically a slim tapering aluminum design.

the upper and lower barrel screw together but the threads where not cut with a die. they look like they where formed in a mold under pressure.

there is a tube of some type in the upper barrel the hold the clicker mechanism but I cannot get much of an idea about it as I cannot remove it.

Both are very light in weight.


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## GouletPens (Jun 6, 2009)

Daniel said:


> I have a Parker pen and Pencil set that I have been looking at.
> the Pen is a click ballpoint and I am not able to remove the clicker mechanism.
> otherwise they are actually very simply made.
> the body parts for both pen and pencil are exactly the same. the only way to tell the pencil from the pen is that the clicker button has been changed just a bit and the nib.
> ...


 I have used Parker Jotter pens for years, and I actually like that clicking mechanism more than any other. I wish our click kits were half of what the Jotter was.


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