# Am I buying the right stuff for Kitless pen making?



## ColeCadorette (Jul 14, 2020)

Hello everyone!

This is my first post in this forum. And from what I've seen I'm super excited for this discussion.

I'm looking to get into kitless pen making. I've made a few slimlines at my local makerspace but I've always adored fountain pens so I want to make my own (.........cuz I can't afford the number of montblancs I want). I have very little experience but i don't mind doing my research and taking on a challenge.

So I know the topic of "what do I need to go kitless" has been rehashed many a time but I've not seen many with specifically what combo of tools to buy. From my reading I've figured out I probably need the items in this list:









						Kitless pen making supplies
					

Sheet1  Price,CAD Wood Lathe,<a href="https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B07PYFC81K/ref=crt_ewc_title_srh_3?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A3DWYIK6Y9EEQB">https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B07PYFC81K/ref=crt_ewc_title_srh_3?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A3DWYIK6Y9EEQB</a>,544.35,544.35 Jacobs chuck,<a href="https://www.am...




					docs.google.com
				




But I'm not sure if all these tools are exactly what I need or even work together and before I drop that amount of money I'd like to get a second opinion.

So is this list complete? Are there better or cheaper alternatives? Where can I save money?

Note I've gone with amazon mostly because I have prime and one day shipping makes everything better lol but if you know any other sources that are cheaper pls let me know.

Also I left out the dies I plan to model the pen this week in a CAD package and make those decisions then.

Thanks for any help you can provide

Cole Cadorette


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## magpens (Jul 14, 2020)

Hi Cole !!! . Warm welcome to IAP !!! 

My first thought would be to upgrade to a metal-working lathe.
Since you are so keen on kitless pen-making, and fountain pens in particular, I think you would find that worthwhile.
You could check with other members here, and not just take my word for it.
An additional $100 to $150 CDN should do it.

And do you want to save some money on another item that I noticed ?
You don't need to spend so much on tap and die holder. . You have "overspent" on those.
For the die holder, go to an IAP member with user-name "rherrell" (that's Rick Herrell). . He  makes/sells an excellent die holder for much less.
As for a tap holder .... nothing special required except what you have already budgeted for, namely a Jacobs chuck for tailstock.

I'll stop there for now, and let you consider my lathe suggestion. . Feel free to engage me in "conversation" if you wish.

Oh, one other thing .... you are actually wise to think of a 4-jaw chuck, in my opinion. . I find a 4-jaw extremely useful.
But you could easily get by with a 3-jaw, which is cheaper. . And if you go with a metal lathe will come with the lathe.
I use a 4-inch 4-jaw chuck on my mini metal lathe, mainly because of the larger diameter throat which will accept 0.84" diam. stock.


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## ColeCadorette (Jul 14, 2020)

I was considering a metal lathe but opted for a wood lathe because it's a beast I've tackled before and in my research was told it can do the job. I also have a few other projects in mind that require a wood lathe so it made more sense to me.

Thank you so much for the suggestion for the die holder I have contacted him.


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## ColeCadorette (Jul 14, 2020)

Is a metal lathe really that much better? I know there's a way to do threads on it but that seemed a little above my head at the moment. I wanted to eventually get one of the sherline cnc lathes but that was too far out of budget for this project.


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## bmachin (Jul 14, 2020)

My canonical advice (for the 347th time). BUY THIS BOOK.






						The Pen Turner's Bible: The Art of Creating Custom Pens: Kleinhenz, Richard: 9780941936613: Amazon.com: Books
					

The Pen Turner's Bible: The Art of Creating Custom Pens [Kleinhenz, Richard] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. The Pen Turner's Bible: The Art of Creating Custom Pens



					www.amazon.com
				




Bill


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## magpens (Jul 14, 2020)

I am biased towards a metal lathe, and that might be because it is the lathe I learned first to use and grew to like it.
I am inclined towards a higher degree of control and a higher degree of accuracy.
I think that a metal lathe suits my inclinations.

A metal lathe is not more difficult to use than a wood lathe ... but there are some differences. . You mentioned the ability to cut threads and that is a very  useful feature ... if you need it and use it, but most don't. . Don't dismiss a metal lathe because you might need to learn some new skills. . It is not very hard to learn to use a metal lathe for making pens. . You'll learn easily and quickly.

I also have a wood-turning lathe. . I have found that it is more difficult for me to use ... ie. for me to make pens with, but that's me.
It seems to me that a wood lathe is the right tool for turners who do more creatively artistic turnings than I do ... and turnings mainly in wood and of broader scope than I do.

BTW, the particular WEN lathe you have listed might not be a really good choice. .  For one thing, I notice that the minimum rotational speed is stated as 450 RPM, which is not all that low. . I routinely use my lathe at speeds down around 100 RPM or even less .... sometimes for applying finishes to pens, and sometimes for other operations.

I notice that you have allocated $25 for lathe cutting tools. . There is no way that will be adequate for wood turning chisels to be used with a wood lathe. . However, you can easily do what you want to do on a metal lathe at that dollar amount, if we are talking solely about the cutting tools. . You might need to buy a tool post for a metal lathe (depending on which lathe you buy) but a basic tool post is not expensive, and might in fact be supplied with your metal lathe purchase.

It is true that you can do kitless pens on a wood lathe, and if you have other wood-related projects in mind that might be the right choice for you. . However, if kitless pen-making is your primary activity, I have no hesitation in recommending the metal lathe.

The word "wood" as I have used it is probably not all the relevant to what you want to do because ... in my interpretation of "kitless" pen-making ... the materials you are going to be turning are probably materials other than wood, but I could be wrong on that.
I would say that most of the kitless pens that we see displayed on this website are made with materials other than wood.

Ultimately, the tools you buy have to be chosen according to what you want to use them for.

Feel free to contact me with further concerns or questions. . Also, there are many others here on IAP who can help guide your decisions. . You can start a "conversation" if you wish, and if you want a telephone chat I can give you my number.


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## Charlie_W (Jul 14, 2020)

While I am not a kitless turner, I will comment on some of your items listed.
First, the lathe. I feel that this lathe may not serve your desired purposes. There may very well be rotational play between the tailstock and the bed ways as well as play in the quill to tailstock housing resulting in lateral movement when drilling. Also, the quill stroke or how deep it will drill may be an issue too.
My experience is that one needs to plan on spending the money to get a quality lathe. You are wanting to do work that would be better suited to a metal lathe as far as precision and the lower end wood lathes just are not machines to those specs.   Yes, you can make kitless pens on most any lathe but the accuracy is not there.
You listed a Collet Chuck. Many folks prefer a Beall Collet Chuck over some of the other popular brands and I recommend getting a set of metric collets...2mm-22mm for example.

As for calipers, buy calipers which are metal instead of plastic. I find having two or three sets of calipers handy when needing to reference more than one measurement.

Good luck on your purchases and pen turning!


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## jalbert (Jul 14, 2020)

ColeCadorette said:


> Is a metal lathe really that much better? I know there's a way to do threads on it but that seemed a little above my head at the moment. I wanted to eventually get one of the sherline cnc lathes but that was too far out of budget for this project.


Well...what do you want to make? What are your goals? If you’re content on making Franklin Cristoph -esque three piece (cap, section, body) pens, you probably will be fine with a wood lathe and some taps and dies. If you want to progress into more complex designs that incorporate elements such as bands, integrated filling systems, overlays, etc, you may get very frustrated quickly with a wood lathe. Another aspect to consider is how you will procure mandrels and other tooling to hold your pen parts while threading, shaping, finishing. Will you make it? Buy it from someone? A metalworking lathe will give you great capability to make basically any custom tooling you need.


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## ColeCadorette (Jul 14, 2020)

Okay I'm genuinely considering the metal lathe does anyone have any recommendations that I can get in Canada?


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## ColeCadorette (Jul 14, 2020)

Do i still need all the tools I have listed if i go metal lathe?


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## magpens (Jul 14, 2020)

ColeCadorette said:


> Okay I'm genuinely considering the metal lathe does anyone have any recommendations that I can get in Canada?



Here is the lathe that I bought for under $500 .... but that is 10+ years ago .... did not know the price has gone up so much.









						1/3 HP Mini Metalworking Lathe | Princess Auto
					

1/3 HP Mini Metalworking Lathe




					www.princessauto.com
				




Also, I am not sure that this company still sells this lathe. . This ad suggests that the lathe is not available online at present.
A phone call to their head office would be well worth your time to find out for sure. . It is a good lathe.

This is what is known as a " Sieg 7x14 lathe ". . I believe that Grizzly.com in the US sells the same lathe, as do other companies.

You might find a similar lathe at BusyBeeTools.com in Canada. . Also try .... KBCtools.com

An excellent company in the US for small lathes ...... and accessories which you will want to know about .....
is the following company and I give you this as a good reference, not necessarily for you to order your lathe from .....

.... www.LittleMachineShop.com .... I refer to this company as LMS.

I think you might have to do some research if you want to find a source for similar lathes and accessories in Canada.

I have bought accessories from LMS for many years, but I realize that buying an actual lathe is a different situation.
But I am sure it would be possible, if you can live with the shipping cost and the import taxes.


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## mredburn (Jul 14, 2020)

In addition to some of the other advice,  Beall tool company https://bealltool.com/products/turning/colletchuck.php, buy just the chuck and then find a metric set on Ebay that has 21 or 22 collets. That will cover anything you need to hold in a collet chuck. If  your going kitless you will need it the Pen state set has far to few collets and most people find they need the inbetween sizes a lot.  Sherline lathes, whether cnc or not can be used in pen making but there are better choices. That stubby 0mt in the tail stock means drill chucks like to come loose drilling large holes.  IF you do go Sherline get the long bed. 
 Here is a 4 jaw chuck you might consider if your lathe has a 1-8 spindle thread. https://taigtools.com/product/4-jaw-3-1-4-dia-self-centering-scroll-chuck-1-8-thread/ American made and $20 and shipping.
A metal lathe will give you precise control when making small tenons and boring depths that are critical.  Depending on how fussy you are about fit and finish you may end up with a metal lathe even though it can be done on a wood lathe with practice.


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## magpens (Jul 14, 2020)

mredburn, just above, has given a reference to the Taig lathe, so perhaps it is worthwhile to add this, but I do so without recommendation.

Lee Valley sells the Taig lathe, which comes in both wood-turning and metal-turning versions.

Members of IAP have used Taig lathes for making pens, but I am not recommending this because the Taig leaves much to be desired.
Also, it is not a standard architecture and fitting accessories to it is difficult.

Anyway, for your reference, you might like to have a look .....



			https://www.leevalley.com/en-ca/shop/tools/power-tools/lathes/43104-taig-miniature-lathe-for-wood-or-metal


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## ColeCadorette (Jul 14, 2020)

So i found these






						BestEquip Mini Metal Lathe 550W 7 x 12 Inch Metal Lathe 2250 RPM Infinitely Variable Spindle Speed Mini Lathe for Various Types of Metal Wood Turning : Amazon.ca: Industrial & Scientific
					

BestEquip Mini Metal Lathe 550W 7 x 12 Inch Metal Lathe 2250 RPM Infinitely Variable Spindle Speed Mini Lathe for Various Types of Metal Wood Turning : Amazon.ca: Industrial & Scientific



					www.amazon.ca
				












						LATHE MINI 7IN. X12IN. 1/2HP CX SERIES CSA CX704
					

Busy Bee Tools is Canada's largest Woodworking & Metalworking retailer. Find power tools, woodworking tools & metalworking tools at factory direct prices.




					www.busybeetools.com
				












						KING CANADA Mini Metal Lathes, 32" L x 11-1/2" W x 13" H TEB019 (KC-0712ML) | Shop Metal Working Lathe | TENAQUIP
					

Mini Metal Lathes, 32" L x 11-1/2" W x 13" H. Shop KING CANADA Mini Metal Lathes, 32" L x 11-1/2" W x 13" H at TENAQUIP




					www.tenaquip.com
				





Are any of them good


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## magpens (Jul 14, 2020)

I am going to stick my neck out and say that all 3 of these lathes appear to be Sieg lathes.

If that is the case, then you will be well served by any of them, and you will find accessories readily available for order from the US.
Accessories can also be bought in Canada if you know where to look ... try Busy Bee, KBC Tools, etc.

You may even be able to order many of the desirable accessories from Busy Bee in Canada.
However, I have found that Busy Bee does not always have the things I want.

The Amazon pricing is by far the best ..... but you MUST check that it is indeed a Sieg lathe. . Check also that you can return it for a full refund within, say, 30 days. . It sure looks like a Sieg lathe, but you might have to "open it up" to find the Sieg name on the circuit board that controls the motor speed. . Try to find any reviews by other Amazon buyers.

BTW, the Sieg lathe is made in China, and is sold by many companies as a generic "mini-lathe". . Internally and functionally they are all the same, but the external appearances may have slight differences such as the shape of the motor cover on the left side.

I believe that the Busy Bee lathe, the CX704, is also a Sieg lathe. . And also the King Canada lathe you reference above.
The King Canada lathe does have a 4-inch chuck, but it is only 3-jaw.

All have a 4-way tool post, which is a good feature, and it is all that I have ever found necessary for the purpose of holding tool bits


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## magpens (Jul 14, 2020)

I tried to read the description of the Amazon lathe above. . A lot of this description is difficult to understand ... there seem to be some meaningless combinations of words.

A couple of things you want are a headstock with a Morse Taper 3 spindle (MT3), and a tail stock with Morse Taper 2 (MT2).
These specs allow you to buy readily available accessories.

It only has a 3-inch 3-jaw chuck, but that is adequate for starting to turn pens.

The motor specs ( eg. 550W @ 110 volt, 50 RPM to 2200 RPM) seem to jibe with what I know about the Sieg lathes.

I also notice that the Amazon lathe can be bought with a Jacobs chuck for the tailstock (see bottom of the description).
A Jacobs chuck for the tailstock is a MUST HAVE .... but that doesn't mean that THIS Jacobs chuck is the best one to buy.
It seems to be reasonably priced as an add-on to the lathe purchase.

You will need to buy a cutting tool (I recommend a round carbide cutter, about 11 mm diam.). . There are a couple of IAP members who can supply these, if they are still in business. . There are other sources for these, but you may have to do some shopping.

Once you have the lathe, cutting tool, Jacobs chuck, sandpaper, and some drills, you should be in business to make your first pen.
Start out with a simple kit pen ( I don't recommend the usual Slimline but it would serve the purpose ) to get used to the lathe.


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## EricRN (Jul 15, 2020)

ColeCadorette said:


> Hello everyone!
> 
> This is my first post in this forum. And from what I've seen I'm super excited for this discussion.
> 
> ...


If you're serious about a wood lathe, I'd recommend the Laguna 1216.  It's slightly more expensive than the WEN lathe you've listed, but as far as I can tell, is about as high quality a lathe as you can find at that size and price point.  That thing is solid.  Very heavy; doesn't move around.  Straight out of the box, it came tuned perfectly--head stock and tail stock perfectly aligned; absolutely no wobble in the tailstock.  Variable speed.  Fairly low turning speeds for bigger turnings.  A great manual with blow-up diagrams of the construction so you can take it apart easily for cleaning and maintenance (and, more importantly, put it back together easily when you are done).  And there's the opportunity to add an expansion set that allows you to turn wider diameter turnings than any other lathe of this size (up to 15 inches in diameter, I think; most lathes of this size top out at 12 inches), and that extend the distance between centers up to 26 inches.  If you know for a fact now that you'll need that extra distance or height over bed, you might check out the Laguna lathe that they just released that is one stop up; I can't remember the exact name.  I swear by this thing, but I'll admit its the only lathe I've ever used aside from a 30-year old lathe that I used in high school shop class over 20 years ago so ...

Others on the forum like Rikons and the Jet 1221.  I'd just make sure it has a slow min speed, as Mal pointed out (useful for turning wide diameter objects, and also for drilling), a variable speed switch, and rock-solid construction with little play.


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## mredburn (Jul 15, 2020)

My reference was for the taig chuck, it has a 1-8 thread and should fit the lathe he was considering. That particular chuck is an over run from an order that was made for PSI and they stopped using them. That chuck is only $20 and shipping next to the $100 of the others. I do not recommend Taig Lathes for making pens although I have dones so.  My recomendation if you can swing it is to start with a 7 x14 or 7 x 16  or larger. It comes down to how much you want to work around the lathes limitations.


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## magpens (Jul 15, 2020)

mredburn said:


> My reference was for the taig chuck, it has a 1-8 thread and should fit the lathe he was considering. That particular chuck is an over run from an order that was made for PSI and they stopped using them. That chuck is only $20 and shipping next to the $100 of the others. I do not recommend Taig Lathes for making pens although I have done so.  My recommendation if you can swing it is to start with a 7 x14 or 7 x 16  or larger. It comes down to how much you want to work around the lathes limitations.



@mredburn 

Thanks, Mike. . I am aware of the nature and features of that chuck.

Your recommendation for a lathe are the same as mine and it seems that the OP, @ColeCadorette , is now leaning in precisely that direction. . With that in  mind, I don't think that Taig chuck is relevant anymore.

"My recomendation if you can swing it is to start with a 7 x14 or 7 x 16  or larger." - I agree - Seig lathe as mentioned above and sold under several different brand names in Canada and the US.


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## EricRN (Jul 15, 2020)

ColeCadorette said:


> Hello everyone!
> 
> This is my first post in this forum. And from what I've seen I'm super excited for this discussion.
> 
> ...


Also, not saying this to be mean or cheeky, but I had to chuckle a little bit when I saw that your motivation for getting into this hobby was that you liked fountain pens but couldn't afford the number of Montblancs that you want.  I got here the same way.  Thought about buying a nice pen; saw how much they cost; remembered that I'd turned some pens in high school and said, I could make something just as nice for WAAYYYY cheaper.  Well, let me tell you...

I've been at this for two years now, and when you consider the cost of the equipment, the materials that I've fallen in love with (vintage acetate, Conway Stewart, anyone?), and then the fact that this ignited my long-dormant love of woodworking in general and the fact that it spurred a more complete shop for woodworking beyond turning...  Well, let's just say I could have purchased a number of writing instruments from some very nice brands by now.

BUT, the one thing I've got that I wouldn't have if I'd bought the nice pens (other than a hobby that requires some real thinking, intellect and problem solving--thus more likely to take my mind off whatever is bothering me and stressing me out on any given day) is the fact that I can look at something and say that I created it, that I took random stuff and raw materials and (hopefully) created something beautiful in the physical world.  My day job is as a lawyer so I don't often have a physical, tangible thing that I can hold in my hands at the end of a hard days' work.  It's a great feeling to be able to create something tangible that others, or just you, can enjoy and appreciate.


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## eharri446 (Jul 15, 2020)

If you absolutely need a wood lathe, I would check out the RIKON - Midi Lathe Model 70-220VSR. It currently retails for $699.99. However, if you keep a watch around you can find them on sale for $599.99. This lathe has one feature that lifts it above the rest and that is the length of throw of the tail stock. It has a 3 1/2 inch throw when the tail stock is fully extended, which is great when you need to drill long holes.

Also, if you are serious about kit less pens, then you will need to expect to spend an additional $400.00 to $600.00 on your tap and dies because the type of dies you will want are very expensive. IAP has people who run what is called a group buy for the special taps and dies that you would need so that we can get a much lower price. However, to get started and see if you like making kit less pens, I would recommend that you start with a M9 x .75 tap and die for the section or even a M10 X 1. You could use a M12 through a m14 tap and die with a 1 pitch for the body and cap.

Also, I would start out learning by making a roller ball pen instead of the fountain pen as the sections are much easier to make at home

Finally, if you are going to use a wood lathe and want to get a collet set, go with the Beall collet set (Beall 1 in x 8 tpi Collet Chuck Set). This collet system threads onto the threads on your headstock and uses the standard ER32 collets. Which means that you can get a set of metric collets from amazon for around $60.00.


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## Jarod888 (Jul 15, 2020)

Ive recently started kitless pens, so ive been acquiring different tools, etc. I'm a few months ahead of you.

The metal lathe will eventually be something I acquire, but right now I use my jet 1221 and it is perfectly functional. 
I think the rikon or laguna are fine. I prefer my jet. 

I see a lot of folks recommending the beall collet chuck, I dont think it is worth the extra $60 over the psi one. There is also one one amazon, I think it's icage or igage. It's fine too.

The extra money you save can go towards the collets.

You can start with single start taps and dies, m10x1 with m13x.75 or m9 x.75 with m12x.75, but you will need to make mandrels for them. If you eventually move towards triple starts, you will need to remake mandrels, so that is a consideration. 

I do have a set of m13 triples, along with m10 and any of the nib carrier taps (jowo or bock in #5 or #6) if you want. They are American made, I will work out a deal with you if you are interested. 

The little machine shop tap holder is fine, but the taper and is very short, so it wont self eject from the tail stock when you retract it. I added a 1/4-20 bolt to mine so it would. 

There is one one Amazon I like better, I'll see if I can find a link. 

Another thing to be aware of, most tools you use for a wood lathe, will not be adaptable to the metal lathe (chucks, tools, etc.), so you will need to get new ones if you get the metal lathe.


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## ColeCadorette (Jul 16, 2020)

Hey everyone!

I'll type up a longer reply later but I think I've decided to go metal lathe. How does that change the tooling I need. I think I still need the collet, Jacobs and 4 jaw chucks. Do I still need the taps and dies? Or can I make all the threads myself. I'm not sure I like triple start threads. The idea I have in mind requires the the cap to thread to one spot only.

(I want to eventually recreate the raden design on the pilot VP on a cigar pen) this design would look off if they didn't line up perfectly.

I was looking at the sherline metal lathes but found discussions on this forum that said they weren't good for pen making may I ask why is that. 3.5x17 looks to be a good size and at 700 American it doesn't break the bank too much.

I think I'm probably going to go with the Amazon sieg lathe but I just wanted to know why it's better


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## magpens (Jul 16, 2020)

Seems to me that the Sieg lathe (at 700+ CDN) from Amazon is cheaper than the "700 American" you mention for a Sherline.

So I don't get why you are even considering it. . With the Sieg you will have a standard lathe and readily available accessories.

Please give links to the Sherline if you are seriously asking for advice about it in particular.

You mention needing a 4-jaw chuck for the Sieg. . In my opinion, that is nice to have, but not absolutely essential. . You will get a 3-inch 3-jaw with the lathe purchase and that will get you going quite adequately. . The collet chuck and set of collets is also optional and can be deferred to later if you think  you need it sometime down the road. . I have never needed a collet set or collet chuck in my 10+ years of pen-making. . You may decide you want that at a later date.

My advice is to get the lathe and start doing things with it. . You don't have to attempt to accomplish your ultimate goal right from the beginning.
It is better to start with a modest project, like a kit pen, and build up your skills. . In so doing, you will discover what more you need to get to your own personal objectives.

The first accessories you will need to buy to start pen-making on the Sieg are the cutting tool (check with rherrell for this) and a Jacobs chuck with MT2 shaft to go in the tailstock, plus some drill bits in a variety of sizes (buy a SAE set and a Metric set if you are feeling "flush" or just the individual bits to suit your initial pen). . I recommend getting high quality drill bits (check with a reliable toolstore) and not the garden-variety sets from Walmart or Canadian Tire. . I buy my drills from KMS Tools but you may not have one of their stores near you. . You do not need the so-called "parabolic" drill bits that Lee Valley will try to sell you for pens.

There will be other things, such as sandpaper, a 17 mm ratchet wrench (for tailstock and tool post) .... but it is pretty hard for any of us to tell you every last thing you will need because you might have some of those things already in your everyday/general purpose toolbox.


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## ColeCadorette (Jul 16, 2020)

This is the sherline lathe. https://www.sherline.com/product/44004410-lathe/
I was considering it because I think it's American made and I know I can upgrade it to cnc down the line which just has that cool factor lol. 

But I think I've seen people on this forum say it isn't good for pens. But I figured with a 17 inch bed it would have some benefits. So I'm a little confused.

So I still need the die holder but can wait on the collet Chuck that's good to know. 

My plan for drill bits was the $80 set on Amazon link is in the spreadsheet it seems to have everything I would need. I make no assumptions that it's a quality bit but at the price i figure I can figure out what I need them upgrade individual bits as I figure what I'm doing.


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## ColeCadorette (Jul 16, 2020)

And again thankyou to everyone for your thoughtful replies this has been an amazing help


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## magpens (Jul 16, 2020)

Thanks for posting the link to the Sherline.

For pens you will never use the 17" bed length.

It seems there is no headstock chuck included. . That is serious !!!

I just don't like the look of the lathe and it would seem to be non-standard, as far as accessories go.

It would seem that to get the full cross-slide features (as on the Sieg) on the Sherline you have to buy an extra piece for $131.25 USD

For pens, I would not consider it any further. . With a spindle taper of MT1 it is undesirable for sure. . That's a very rare size ... I kid you not !!!
The Sieg has MT3 taper in the spindle ... much, much better from the point of view of getting accessories and the physics of lathe operation.


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## EricRN (Jul 16, 2020)

I don’t own a metal lathe.  I’ve no seriously thought about adding one to the shop but probably won’t pull the trigger for at least a few years.  I still have so much to learn on the wood lathe.  I’m probably not the beat guy to weigh in here then, but that said:  What do folks think of the hitorque lathe that Little Machine Shop sells.  I know that store comes highly recommended by folks on these forums, and they seem to recommend the Hitorque model over the Seig:  https://littlemachineshop.com/Info/hitorque_better.php.  Has anyone had experience with these two?  The hitorque is more expensive, so part of me says “No wonder they are recommending it.”  But who knows what their profit margin is on each machine.


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## magpens (Jul 16, 2020)

@EricRN
I think I am correct in saying that HiTorque is a brand name owned by LMS. . I have never seen it sold by any other vendor, but I could have missed it.

I generally like what I have read about the HiTorque, but I have never used one. . I think it has features that the Sieg does not have, but not sure.
It would not surprise me if the HiTorque is actually made in the Sieg factory.

If there were a store near me that sold the HiTorque, I would probably buy one rather than a Sieg, but there isn't.

But having used a Sieg for 10+ years I am perfectly happy with what it has delivered for me.

EDIT: . Just went to the LMS website and noticed that they state this, which would tend to confirm it is indeed a Sieg :

"The LittleMachineShop.com model 5100 HiTorque Mini Lathe is a longer version of the SIEG SC3."

It has a cam-lock tailstock, which is an advantage. . It also has a 4-inch 3-jaw headstock chuck (the usual Sieg has 3-inch 3-jaw).
Everything else seems the same as the usual Sieg, including the 500 Watt motor. . One factor might be the claimed gearless drive.

There is a bigger model which also is based on the Sieg :

" The LittleMachineShop.com model  3540 HiTorque 8.5x20 Bench Lathe is a version of the SIEG SC4 bench lathe. "

It has a bigger motor and a powered cross-feed (probably not that significant for pen-turning). . And it's almost double the price.


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## EricRN (Jul 16, 2020)

Thanks, Mal.  It's probably only a matter of time before I get a metal lathe.  As evidenced by some of my other recent posts, I want to get into kitless to.  I'm going to make do with the wood lathe for now.  But I'll probably need something with the precision of a metal lathe at some point for threads and the connections.


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## EricRN (Jul 16, 2020)

And, actually, reading the fine print on this comparison page, it says that all of these lathes--the Seig, the Hitorque, and a few others, are made in the same factory in China: https://littlemachineshop.com/info/minilathe_compare.php.  So I'd assume quality and QC issues would probably be the same across the different models, such that it really is a matter of price and spec.


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## darrin1200 (Jul 17, 2020)

EricRN said:


> And, actually, reading the fine print on this comparison page, it says that all of these lathes--the Seig, the Hitorque, and a few others, are made in the same factory in China: https://littlemachineshop.com/info/minilathe_compare.php.  So I'd assume quality and QC issues would probably be the same across the different models, such that it really is a matter of price and spec.



While they may be made in the same factory, do not assume they are the same. Often, the differences are in the materials and quality of components used. ie plastic gears versus metal gears. 
Different quality control standards allowed, also affect the price point. It costs more to make parts with a higher tolerance. Getting .002” tolerance as opposed to .005”, needs closer tolerance tooling and will likely have a higher unacceptable rate on the assembly line.
These are things that will affect the final price, but won’t appear in the descriptions. Just remember, if they look the same but have a drastic price difference, there must be a reason..


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## bmachin (Jul 17, 2020)

A couple of come to mind here.

1. You might want to take a look at the Micromark 7x16 mini lathe. It's about $300 or so less expensive than the LMS Hi-Torque mini-lathe with the same working spec except that the LMS machine has a 4" chuck vs a 3" on the Micromark. The 4" is probably a worthwhile upgrade although you can do it yourself for less even though you will be forgoing the 4"Mounting faceplate (not a big deal IMHO). You may also be given up a more robust spindle, bearings, etc. Don't know about that. I can tell you that I and several others hereon or have owned the Micromark and have been happy with it.

2. Contra what Mal says, the motor that is in the LMS and Micromark machines is not the same as in all the other Sieg machines. LMS and Micromark use brushless DC motors.

Bill


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## magpens (Jul 17, 2020)

"2. Contra what Mal says, "

I apologize if I made an erroneous statement about the motors.

I think I was going on the stated power consumptions which  may not be the proper or only criterion for making the comparison.
And I could also have even misread the numbers. . After you have read the specs for a few it's easy to get confused unless you write them all down. . Some of the current Siegs have 350 Watt motors, others have 500 Watt, etc., some are brushless, others not.

As Darrin said, " While they may be made in the same factory, do not assume they are the same."

A useful comparison table has been referenced by Darrin : https://littlemachineshop.com/info/minilathe_compare.php
With that table is a note:   "In our experience there is not a noticeable quality difference between the brands." (whatever that means)
I would say, like with everything else you purchase, ... "Let the buyer beware!"

I just checked the spec label on my own Sieg lathe and it states my lathe's motor is 250 Watt. . I have been using it for 10+ yrs.
It has been performing perfectly adequately for everything I have wanted to do with it, which mainly has been making 2000+ pens.

Sometimes the motors are spec'd in HP. . For reference and comparison, the common conversion is 746 Watts = 1 HP.

In the comparison table there is a line "Motor Controller". . This refers to the electronic circuit board that sets the motor speed.
There are two types that appear on that line in the table. . The type specified as "Brushless DC" refers to the actual motor construction. . The type specified as "PWM" means "Pulse Width Modulated" and refers, not to the motor, but to the design of the circuit that controls the motor speed. . So, even in this table, there is some mixing of terminology. . Strictly speaking, one should not mix the motor's actual construction (Brushless DC) with the speed-controlling circuit design (PWM). . The point I am making is that one always must accompany the reading of published specifications with some critical thought and analysis of the meaning. . In this particular case, I suspect that the Brushless DC motor also utilizes PWM speed-control circuitry. . Please correct me if this is wrong.

The MicroLux lathe (one of the many Sieg variants) is certainly worth considering and is currently on sale at a very good price.









						MicroLux® 7x16 Mini Lathe
					

DetailsThe MicroLux® 7 x 16 Mini Lathe.The only "TRUE INCH" machine of its kind on the market!A Micro-Mark Exclusive; the only “True Inch” machine of its kindPowerful brushless 500-watt motor with reversable switchCreate fine finishes on turnings up to 7 inches in diameter and 16 inches in...




					www.micromark.com
				




This other package may have features you could find desirable.









						MicroLux® 7 x 16 Hotrod Lathe Super Value Package
					

DetailsMicro-Make™ Super Value Packages are an economical way to expand your workshop or get involved in a new hobby. A Micro-Mark Exclusive; the only “True Inch” machine of its kindPowerful brushless 500-watt motor with reversable switchIncludes all the most requested upgrades, a $2069.75...




					www.micromark.com


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## bmachin (Jul 18, 2020)

Mal,

I wasn't picking on you. Just pointing out the difference between LMS, Micromark and the others. 

I suspect that the brushless DC motor is one of the main reasons that the LMS and MM machines are more costly by a substantial margin. I'm not smart enough to know know the the technical differences except that it has to do with torque curves and that's how you can do away with the gearbox on the brushless DC machines. Quinn Dunki over at the Blondihacks channel has a good explanation of this. I believe it's in her video on what to look for in a small (not 7x) lathe.

Bill


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## bmachin (Jul 18, 2020)

A really good source for info on mini lathes is Frank Hoose. He started a website in 2000 which is still up and still contains a lot of worthwhile info even though he no longer updates it. Here:





__





						mini-lathe.com home page
					






					www.mini-lathe.com
				




His more recent stuff (last 5 years or so) is on YouTube. For his generic minillathe videos go to his channel and sort his videos by Date Added (Oldest):









						Frank Hoose
					

Product reviews, tutorials and information about metal-working mini lathes, mini mills and other tools for the home-shop machinist and model engineer




					www.youtube.com
				




Bill


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## magpens (Jul 18, 2020)

@bmachin
Thanks very much, Bill.


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## ColeCadorette (Jul 18, 2020)

Hello again everyone!

My plan was to go with the amazon lathe mainly because it's the cheapest and I'm already a little over budget. Is this a bad idea I'll admit I'm thoroughly confused when it comes to brushless motors and torque and all the other words being thrown around. But I want to buy something that'll last so if the recommendation is the LMS or Micromark I may refigure my budget but if the amazon is good enough I'll go with that.

Another question I'm looking at the pen turners bible and I'm planning to remake the design for the kitless pen in solidworks I just have a really basic question are the measurements for the plans in metric or inches.


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## magpens (Jul 18, 2020)

@ColeCadorette
"Another question I'm looking at the pen turners bible and I'm planning to remake the design for the kitless pen in solidworks I just have a really basic question are the measurements for the plans in metric or inches. "

Measure one of your existing pens and you should be able to figure this out.

I'm sorry, but it has been a few years since I read that book and I forget. . (I strongly think the dimensions are inches.)

It's handy to remember that (approximately) : ... 0.04" = 1 mm, and that 1" = 25.4 mm

You, without doubt, will own a fountain pen : ... approx. 0.5" diameter, or 12.5 mm

And this raises an important point .... get yourself a STAINLESS STEEL caliper for measuring. . Digital readout.
You will use this many dozens of times in the course of making one pen. . DO NOT buy calipers priced below $25. . DO NOT buy plastic ones.
I bought one for $40 from Princess Auto which I really like. . (Some folks call these a "pair" or a "set" of calipers ... perhaps like a "pair" of scissors).


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## magpens (Jul 18, 2020)

With regard to your lathe purchase .... when you buy from Amazon, do you really know what you're getting ?

I don't know because I have never bought from Amazon. . We're looking at an online picture, and it looks like a Sieg lathe.

That's why I recommend that you ask about the 30-day return policy.


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## bmachin (Jul 18, 2020)

Here is a link to Little Machine Shope's article on how to identify a Sieg lathe:









						Identifying SIEG Mini Lathes
					

How to Identify a SIEG Lathe




					littlemachineshop.com
				




One of the criteria is that the lead screw on a Sieg does not extend beyond the right end support bearing. Looking at the photographs of the three that you are considering, the Busy Bee is the only one that meets that criterion. The others may be perfectly fine lathes, but parts availability may be a problem--I don't know. I do know that LMS can supply just about any Sieg part out there; that's how they got started.

Don't worry about brushless motors, torque, etc; that's just ancient physicists talking.

As far as The Penturners Bible is concerned, all the measurements are in inches.

Bill


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## darrin1200 (Jul 19, 2020)

@ColeCadorette 

One of the biggest mistakes you could make, is to buy an expensive piece of equipment, “that will do”.
While I am a fan of Craftex tools, I have a few woodworking machines, in this case, I think I would go with the LMS. In fact, if I didn’t already have a vintage 10x24 lathe, I would be looking at LMS. The vintage machines offer their own problems.
My priority concerns beyond build quality, would be bed length and the diameter of the spindle through hole. Swing over the bed is not an issue with what we do, 7” is plenty. However, the bed length can be critical. By the time you add up the length of the headstock chuck, the tailstock, the drill chuck and the drill bit, there is not much room left. The spindle hole is critical when you start working with rod stock. You want the ability for the rod to slide into the tail stock keeping the minimum amount sticking out of the chuck.

My choices in order based on price in $CAD
Also consider that shipping from the states will likely add $200-300, while there is a BusyBee in Ottawa that you could drive to for a lot less.

These two are only if price is the biggest factor, because I think the bed length is to short.
LMS Sieg C3 - $780 +shipping and tax (only while its on sale)
Craftex CX704 - $1000 +tax. (You have the advantage of local assistance)

LMS HiTorque 5100 7x16- $1235+ shipping and tax. This is the one that I would choose today if my budget was a large factor. It gives a good bed size and spindle through hole. 

If I could spend the extra (and I would try) I would choose one of these, as they are more robust machines that should not leave me wishing for a little more, 1 year down the road.

Craftex CX708 10x18- $2300 +tax 
LMS HiTorque 3540 8.5x20-  $2350 +shipping and tax


This is just my two cents. Keep in mind, that these machines come with a learning curve, and you will likely be watching a lot of YouTube.


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## darrin1200 (Jul 19, 2020)

darrin1200 said:


> @ColeCadorette
> 
> 
> My priority concerns beyond build quality, would be bed length and the diameter of the spindle through hole. Swing over the bed is not an issue with what we do, 7” is plenty. However, the bed length can be critical. By the time you add up the length of the headstock chuck, the tailstock, the drill chuck and the drill bit, there is not much room left. The spindle hole is critical when you start working with rod stock. You want the ability for the rod to slide into the* **tail stock  * *Head Stock* keeping the minimum amount sticking out of the chuck.



I made a typing error in my post, but my tablet won’t let me edit it. It should read head stock instead of tail stock.


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## ColeCadorette (Jul 19, 2020)

I'm not sure what to do. I really don't want to order from the states I've been burned by duty fees in the past so im scared. I found the king canada lathe at a local machine shop for 999 it's on page 7. Is this a good deal? It's only 12" but I really can't spend any more than this.


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## darrin1200 (Jul 19, 2020)

@ColeCadorette 

If it is down to the two, then they are very similar machines and I am sure one will get you going the direction you want.
They look the same except for colour.






The king motor says it is a 5.5A while the CX is 1/2Hp-3A. I'm not an electric motor guy, so I couldn't say the difference.

You will also want to consider the store you are buying from. I do not know your local store, ie...what is their main business.
The BusyBee in Ottawa has a good selection of metal working accessories such as bits and things. They also have a couple of really knowledgeable staff that can help with asking questions and getting accessories.
And you will need accessories.

Here are the two manuals, to compare.

I hope this helps a little.


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## magpens (Jul 19, 2020)

Looking at the King Canada lathe description in your sale flyer ...... what does this mean .....  "mandrin 4”- 3 mors "

My French is not too good .... it might mean :  "4-inch 3-jaw chuck" .... If so, that's a step in the right direction, but 4" 4-jaw chuck would be better.
Maybe you can request that as a special deal with the tool store that is selling this lathe.

I honestly don't know what to suggest. . I would like to think that the Amazon lathe is an acceptable product.
And I don't think you should give up on that option ...... do ask about the 30-day return policy, as it might apply to that lathe.
It is worth saving $250 if you can (compared to the King lathe).

The King at $999 CDN is not a bad deal. . And you do have the advantage of dealing with a "brick-and-mortar" store and live sales people.

I know how you feel about importing a lathe from the US, paying shipping plus import taxes plus a fee to Canada Customs .... that all HURTS !!


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## bmachin (Jul 20, 2020)

Take a look at my most recent post above. Qualifications stated all stand but the King does not appear to be a Sieg machine where the Craftex does. Admittedly, I'm a belt-and-suspenders guy when it comes to future proofing.

Bill


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## Curly (Jul 20, 2020)

Here is another of the mini lathes that fall into the same basic category. Princess Auto have a couple locations near Montreal. They don't specialize in metal working tools so support will be virtually nonexistent. https://www.princessauto.com/en/detail/1-3-hp-mini-metalworking-lathe/A-p8507659e 

I have a 13" x 37" Grizzly lathe I bought when living just north of them in BC. They have been shipping into Canada a few years and as far as I know give you the delivered price with the brokerage fees included. They don't sell their bigger stuff to us but you could look into some of their smaller lathes. 

I would step up a notch from the Sieg type like I linked above to the 8" or 9" x 18" or 20" ranges like Grizzly sell but I am not in your shoes. By any chance is there a makers space type place near you? They could have some lathes you could use until you decide what you want to get.


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## magpens (Jul 20, 2020)

@Curly @ColeCadorette

I have a Sieg lathe (almost the same as this one) which I purchased at Princess Auto 10+ years ago. . Its motor is only 250 Watts in my lathe.
This low power motor has been adequate for making pens and everything else I have wanted to do. . It can do plastics, brass/alum but not steel.

You will notice that Princess Auto, in this listing, says that this lathe is "Out of Stock" for online, but that some stores MIGHT have it.

In my experience with Princess Auto, this lathe has been available at only 2 or 3 different times in the last 10 years.
It is not continuously available.

Curly said ....
" Here is another of the mini lathes that fall into the same basic category. Princess Auto have a couple locations near Montreal. They don't specialize in metal working tools so support will be virtually nonexistent. https://www.princessauto.com/en/detail/1-3-hp-mini-metalworking-lathe/A-p8507659e "

This listing mentions that this lathe is "1/3 horsepower". . The conversion is 1 horsepower = 746 watts, which makes it 250 Watts (as mine is).


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## ColeCadorette (Jul 25, 2020)

Okay so update I've messaged the amazon seller asking specifically if the lathe is Sieg lathe and what there return policy is. So they have two business days to get back to me. If I'm not satisfied with their answer I think I'll go to my local machine shop I called and they seem nice plus I wont have to wait for shipping. It'll just cost more so I'll have to wait till next payday.

Speaking of next pay day I plan to buy all the tools I need then. I'm updating the original spreadsheet









						Kitless pen making supplies
					

Sheet1  Price,CAD Wood Lathe,<a href="https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B07PYFC81K/ref=crt_ewc_title_srh_3?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A3DWYIK6Y9EEQB">https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B07PYFC81K/ref=crt_ewc_title_srh_3?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A3DWYIK6Y9EEQB</a>,544.35,544.35 Jacobs chuck,<a href="https://www.am...




					docs.google.com
				




My Budget is 550 for the tools. So my main question is do i still need the taps and dies with a metal lathe. I actually prefer single start threads so this might be doable on the lathe???


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## Jarod888 (Jul 25, 2020)

ColeCadorette said:


> Okay so update I've messaged the amazon seller asking specifically if the lathe is Sieg lathe and what there return policy is. So they have two business days to get back to me. If I'm not satisfied with their answer I think I'll go to my local machine shop I called and they seem nice plus I wont have to wait for shipping. It'll just cost more so I'll have to wait till next payday.
> 
> Speaking of next pay day I plan to buy all the tools I need then. I'm updating the original spreadsheet
> 
> ...



You dont need taps and dies with a metal lathe, however - and it is a big however, single point threading on a metal lathe is an art, especially with the small diameters we are dealing with.

Honestly, if you are going single point, go with taps and dies, until you are intimately familiar with the operation of your lathe.  I think I even have a set of m13 x .75 and m10 x 1, id sell you pretty cheap.

I'll look over your list and comment on that later.


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## Jarod888 (Jul 25, 2020)

So a couple of things, I think you will need a chuck, probably 4 jaw with that lathe.  The drill chuck is expensive.  I have a basically brand new one id sell you if you want the taps and dies. Just let me know.


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## Penultimate (Jul 25, 2020)

There is a lot of great info and advice. I’ll throw in my $0.01 worth. 
Take your time and shop for accessories. You can find good deals on http://www.cdcotools.com/, shars.com, arceurotrade, and of course eBay.
Good luck, have fun. 


Sent from my iPhone using Penturners.org mobile app


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