# Issues drilling on the lathe



## keithncsu (Nov 21, 2016)

Ok so I've already searched and couldn't really find a thread that really hit on my issues.  I'll give a quick rundown of my problem and then list out what I'm using.  Hopefully you guys can help me figure it out.  Long story short I'm getting a lot of vibration when drilling. Especially 27/64.  And the drill chuck (PSI keyless MT2) will eventually spin off the Morse taper on the chuck side NOT the quill side. Had it happen in both extending and retracting the quill. I've looked for debris or issues with the MT and see none. Doesn't seem to happen on my 7mm brad point bit. Not sure if there's a chuck issue or if I'm using crappy bits.  

Here's my set up:
Rikon 70-105
PSI keyless chuck (paired with the PSI pen jaws when drilling blanks)
My 27/64 bit is the general purpose black oxide ones from Lowe's. Bought one on the way home from work (second one) and it does the same thing. 

So am I just doing something wrong or should I just pickup an inexpensive drill press and leave the lathe for turning?

If you need any other info I'll be happy to provide.


----------



## jttheclockman (Nov 21, 2016)

keithncsu said:


> Ok so I've already searched and couldn't really find a thread that really hit on my issues.  I'll give a quick rundown of my problem and then list out what I'm using.  Hopefully you guys can help me figure it out.  Long story short I'm getting a lot of vibration when drilling. Especially 27/64.  And the drill chuck (PSI keyless MT2) will eventually spin off the Morse taper on the chuck side NOT the quill side. Had it happen in both extending and retracting the quill. I've looked for debris or issues with the MT and see none. Doesn't seem to happen on my 7mm brad point bit. Not sure if there's a chuck issue or if I'm using crappy bits.
> 
> Here's my set up:
> Rikon 70-105
> ...




Noticed on reviews of that item there was another person with the same problem. Could be defective. are you using a drawbar with it??


----------



## keithncsu (Nov 21, 2016)

If I ask what a draw bar is does that answer the question?? Haha


----------



## Jolly Red (Nov 21, 2016)

Before you put the morse taper back into the chuck, clean the tapers thoroughly.  Then make sure the tapers are well seated by driving it in with a dead blow hammer or wooden club.  If it still comes apart in use, it is defective and needs to be replaced.


----------



## jttheclockman (Nov 21, 2016)

Maybe I did not follow your original post and you have a 2 piece chuck but make sure as mentioned in previous post clean and hit with a dead blow hammer or even a rubber mallet so not to damage things. here is a good video of a draw bar used on a drill chuck and it gives you the basic idea what it is and how it is used and why. many people fashion their own but they do sell them too. good luck.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkbM1aXTGAA


----------



## Paul in OKC (Nov 21, 2016)

Ditto on giving it a 'whack'. When you do, open the jaws all the way so they are inside the body. Put that end down on a 2x4 or similar and hit the end of the taper. Sounds like you have a good bite on the tail stock end. A draw bar would screw into the small end of the taper and run out the back of the tail stock and use a washer to pull and hold the taper seated. Doesn't sound like that is the problem, though.


----------



## KenV (Nov 21, 2016)

Keith

Most of the drill chucks are mounted on one end of a morse taper arbor.  The end where the chuck fits can be threaded, but more commonly it is a Jacobs Taper identified by a number such as JT33.

Both the arbor and chuck need to be clean,burr free, and of identical taper.  That is a JT33 chuck needs to be paired with a JT33 arbor.   And yes they sometimes get mismatched.

So your chuck is coming off the Jacobs Taper (not good).  If you cannot get it to stay with one more try after the "whack a mole" treatment, time to call customer service and get a replacement coming your way.


----------



## More4dan (Nov 22, 2016)

Is it with acrylics or also with wood?
I've had the same problem with acrylics when I've drilled too far without reversing to clear my he chips or allowing the bit to get too hot. A stuck bit will pull the chuck out of the taper.  Melted chips also will create a vibration and even force the bit off center making a larger hole. You may also try sharpening your bit.


----------



## keithncsu (Nov 22, 2016)

Does it with any blanks. Always careful with acrylics and haven't seen as much of an issue with those. Havent melted a bit into one  yet. 

It's happened with several bits.  One was brand new, one was relatively used, and the other was recently sharpened (happened to be a 3/8).


----------



## SteveG (Nov 22, 2016)

So far the responses to your post have addressed the taper: cleaning, seating, defect, etc. All good to consider and address. But the issue may originate with the cause for the vibration. It may be your drill bits are not straight, or perhaps not sharp, or are improperly sharpened. The Lowe's bit could have some or all of these problems built right into the new bit. Did you sharpen that bit, and the others that vibrate? How do you sharpen? Try to identify and resolve the cause of vibration.


----------



## keithncsu (Nov 22, 2016)

So I first noticed it on a 27/64 bit that I had used for maybe 20 pens.  Some of those were acrylic and quite a few were cross cut monkey pod.  So I assumed it was dull and sharpened it with my Drill Dr but somehow ruined it.  I've gone back and verified I did the steps right but that is a whole separate issue.  I purchased another one from Lowe's last night and it vibrated as well.  Same exact brand/type/etc.  I did not sharpen it out of the package.  Though I will say after going back to look at it, it looks ugly 

I had also noticed it on a 3/8 bit of the same brand/type from Lowe's.  So I sharpened it (same steps as the one above but with no issues) and it still vibrated as well, but less.

I have not (or don't recall atleast) having the vibration on my 7mm brad point bit that I got from one of the online pen supply vendors.  I think it was Rockler but not 100% sure.

Also to confirm, I'm using center drills I purchased from Harbor Freight.  They are still super sharp and a few times I've even gotten the vibration on those enough for the chuck to come loose.  

Not sure if any of that info adds to the discussion, but maybe!


----------



## walshjp17 (Nov 22, 2016)

In addition to the above advice, I always start my drilling (especially with hard woods, woods with crazy grain and acrylics, stone, antler, etc.) with a center drill.  This makes a small starter hole so that the drill bit can't help but start in the center of the blank.  These are available in sets of four or five bits from Little Machine Shop and other vendors.  Less than $20 and well with the $$ and less aggravation.

Center Drills, Cobalt, Set of 5 (Numbers 1-5) 4859 - LittleMachineShop.com


----------



## SteveG (Nov 22, 2016)

One caution on using a center drill with brad point bits. Although the center drill will tend to make a nice, on-center starting point, the design of a brad point bit may not work in harmony with that starter hole. The outer cutting edges of the brad point might grab the material, and tend to throw it off center instead of guiding it toward center. (Many factors at work there, but something to be aware of with a brad point.)


----------



## walshjp17 (Nov 22, 2016)

SteveG said:


> One caution on using a center drill with brad point bits. Although the center drill will tend to make a nice, on-center starting point, the design of a brad point bit may not work in harmony with that starter hole. The outer cutting edges of the brad point might grab the material, and tend to throw it off center instead of guiding it toward center. (Many factors at work there, but something to be aware of with a brad point.)



Which is why I tend to use regular jobber bits now.  I only use brad points on soft woods.


----------



## Dan Masshardt (Nov 22, 2016)

I did a video on drilling on the lathe.  Check out lisburn wood works on YouTube.  


Sent from my iPhone using Penturners.org mobile app


----------



## duncsuss (Nov 22, 2016)

I can think of 2 possible causes of vibration:

(1) the quill might be a sloppy fit in the tailstock

(2) the tailstock might be out of alignment

You can reduce the impact of (1) by tightening the lock screw on the side of the quill and only release it enough to allow you to crank the quill handle.

Test for (2) by putting a pointed stick (e.g. a scratch awl or scribe) in the drill chuck (in the tailstock) and a spur drive center in the headstock. Check the tips line up at both ends of the quill travel -- not just fully retracted or fully extended, it has to be in line both ends.

Hope this helps!


----------



## keithncsu (Nov 22, 2016)

So after watching Dans video maybe I need to ask what rpm most are drilling at. I'll check when I get home but I'm pretty sure it's set to 1850 or so. I don't change belts for anything. All drilling, turning, sanding, and finishing done at the same speed.  

On a side note, thanks again Dan for a great video. I always learn something. Maybe on a future video you could document the drill dr process? I have the paper instructions but am a visual learner it seems when it comes to tools and lathe stuff.


----------



## bobaltig (Nov 22, 2016)

Even if using a good drill press and Paul Hoffmans drilling vise, I get truer results using a Jacobs Chuck and a pen jaw chuck when drilling all types of pen blanks.  Your problem is one of misalignment somewhere.  I suspect it is in the morse taper on your lathe, either in the headstock or tailstock.  Get a morse taper cleaner and be sure your morse taper is pristine clean.  They don't cost much and will eliminate a lot of different problems.  Just my two cents worth, adjusted for rising inflation.


----------



## Skie_M (Nov 22, 2016)

Uhh ... first issue I can tell you right off the bat is this ...

You're drilling the wrong way round!

The drill chuck goes in the TAILSTOCK, and you advance the STATIONARY DRILL BIT through the work by advancing the tailstock quill.

The workpiece goes on the headstock, in whatever way you can attach it to rotate on center ... either turn it round between centers and then grip it in a 3-jaw chuck or 4-jaw chuck or a large drill chuck in the headstock MEANT for turning in the headstock (with a drawbar), or use dedicated drill chuck and square stock, though if it's square enough, then a 4-jaw chuck may work adequately as well.


Many drill chucks come in a 2-piece taper, and a drawbar alone isn't going to provide anything close to adequate for safety measures.  Sure, you can keep the morse taper from pulling out of the spindle, but if the secondary taper that the drill chuck body is attached to also comes loose, what's the damned point of the drawbar to begin with??

So long as you don't intend to REPLACE that morse taper with another size taper (that's the real reason they come apart like that ... so that you CAN use another adapter for you lathe), just SUPERGLUE IT TOGETHER the next time it slips apart and you have access inside the secondary taper.  If you ever need to get it apart later, stick it in the freezer for a half hour and give it a few light taps with a rubber mallet or a small hammer ... the CA will shatter.  Or torch it with a blow torch to melt the CA.

In any case, the drill chuck goes in the tailstock every time ... it's not meant for the headstock on a wood lathe.  If the workpiece is the part that rotates, then a drill bit will NATURALLY find the center of rotation and self-guide itself through the object.


Depending on the item, I generally start my drilling at the lowest speed my lathe will go ... around 300 RPM ... as the drill bit seats itself inside the hole fully, I increase speed to around 1000 RPM and leave it there unless the bit starts to bog down in it's cutting action ...

Only when I'm working something that's really slow going and difficult (bogs the bit down repeatedly) will I amp the speed up over 2000 RPM, but at those speeds I risk possibly damaging the drill bit.  Although if it does that a lot, it's likely that the bit is already dull... 

I need a drill doctor, myself.


----------



## keithncsu (Nov 22, 2016)

Thanks skid. Though not sure where the confusion came from. . The drill chuck is in the tailstock and the pen jaws in the headstock as is normal. 

I had wondered about glueing it together but wasn't sure if it was an issue. I have no other use for that double sided taper it came with so that's probably an option.


----------



## monophoto (Nov 22, 2016)

AS Ken points out, most Jacobs chucks are two-piece items, and they do come apart.  That's why it is wise to hold the chuck with your left hand while drilling.

To me, the most suspicious element in the description of the problem is the vibration.  I suspect it is the vibration that it loosening the chuck.

My suspicion is that the drill may not be centering properly, causing vibration.  That is also a common problem with ordinary twist drills.  Brad points can correct that problem, but only if the tail stock has little or no backlash and lines up perfectly.

My suggestion is to get a cheap set of starter bits (Harbor Freight has a set for less than $6), to drill a small hole.  If the starter hole is centered correctly, then it will capture the twist drill bit and minimize vibration.


----------



## jttheclockman (Nov 22, 2016)

Not all drill chucks come with a double taper.  Some have a threaded end for the chuck and the other end is a taper. I did not quite understand what he was talking about when he said it came apart. If it is coming apart on the chuck side of the taper then just tap it on as was mentioned no glue needed. CA is not going to hold metal to metal If you do not care used red loctite. A draw bar can be very useful so do not poo poo it. 

As far as vibration goes as I said read the reviews on that chuck and maybe call PSI and see what they say. It is always a good idea to hold the chuck with your left hand when drilling to ensure it does not bounce around when starting and also from pulling out the taper when removing the drill from the piece. Using starter bits is always a good idea. Good luck.


----------



## KenV (Nov 22, 2016)

One place that could cause the bucking and jerking is if the chuck is not going onto the Jacobs Taper straight.  If it is cocked, that would have the symptoms described.  Have seen that on a drill press.  The old guy I was working for whacked it on the "high side" until the runout was acceptable to him.  The whole drill press was shaking when one tried to drill.


----------



## MTViper (Nov 23, 2016)

I think one of the main problems is the speed at which you're drilling.  The higher speed amplifies any out of alignment or out of balance situation.  I never drill over 400 RPM.  The larger the drill bit, the slower the speed.  If I'm using a forstner it, I slow it down even more.  This also serves to reduce the heat buildup in the bit and the blank.


----------



## keithncsu (Nov 26, 2016)

Ok so here's an update.  I just tried drilling at the lowest speed on my lathe (500 rpm) and noticed that the vibration lessened to the point that the chuck felt secure. 

Also I think I found the source of the vibration. It appears to be coming from the headstock in the form of a very slight wobble. The headstock assembly is secure and does not move or vibrate. It's strictly in the drive line if that's the best term. I just always assumed it was normal as it's my first lathe but I'm starting to wonder now. At 500 rpm I can see he headstock wheel move up and down as it rotates. At the end of the mandrel you see the washout ever so slightly. 

I have linked to videos below of both below. Is this normal or have I discovered an issue? I tried calling Rikon but they are closed for the holiday. 

https://youtu.be/QkAQgpRrK3M
https://youtu.be/jJS8nlwVPjg


----------



## Skie_M (Nov 26, 2016)

Make sure that your headstock spindle assembly is properly tightened and not loose anywhere ... that handwheel should be running as smooth as oiled silk....


----------



## keithncsu (Nov 26, 2016)

If by smooth as silk you mean no binding then yes. It does. I can freely spin it with no resistance as far as I can tell.


----------



## KenV (Nov 26, 2016)

keithncsu said:


> Ok so here's an update.  I just tried drilling at the lowest speed on my lathe (500 rpm) and noticed that the vibration lessened to the point that the chuck felt secure.
> 
> Also I think I found the source of the vibration. It appears to be coming from the headstock in the form of a very slight wobble. The headstock assembly is secure and does not move or vibrate. It's strictly in the drive line if that's the best term. I just always assumed it was normal as it's my first lathe but I'm starting to wonder now. At 500 rpm I can see he headstock wheel move up and down as it rotates. At the end of the mandrel you see the washout ever so slightly.
> 
> ...




Keith 

Time to call Ricon customer service and ask about how to adjust that play out of the lathe.  On my little jet, I have to snug the hand wheel up to the headstock to assure the thrust bearing is engaged.  Never had a Rikon, but customer service will tell you how to snug up things and take the excess movement out.


----------



## keithncsu (Nov 26, 2016)

Let me also clarify - when I mentioned I could see the wheel moving up and down, there is NO play in the wheel or spindle. When the lathe is off I cannot move the either of them up or down. It is snug. 

I do plan to call Rikon as soon as they re-open.  I just drilled 23 blanks and didn't have any significant issues.  Used 4 different bits across natural wood, stabilized wood, spectraply, and acrylic/PR.


----------



## Skie_M (Nov 26, 2016)

Well, then ... it could just be that the wheel itself is out of round and throwing the balance off.

In the second video, I was watching your entire mandrel wobble side to side ... that indicates to me that the mandrel may be straight as an arrow (roll it on a flat surface and check for wobble), but the mounting to the spindle may be out of alignment.

Does it mount by screwing onto the spindle or is it seated in the taper?

Check taper to ensure it is clean and smooth ... both in the headstock and on the mandrel ...

Check to ensure threads are clean and spindle shoulder is clean ... if the mandrel doesn't screw on all the way to that shoulder for a secure fit, then the threads won't keep the mandrel locked tight to the spindle shaft and you'll have some play there too.  

The same goes for any other chuck or faceplate assembly...


----------



## keithncsu (Nov 26, 2016)

That mandrel could very well have not been seated completely. It seats into the taper and I just put it in by hand. I usually use the live center/quill to push it in completely after putting the bushings and blank on the mandrel.


----------



## edstreet (Nov 27, 2016)

Here are 2 different setups for drilling on the lathe.  Both incorporate the same design/goal.

On your video's posted you have something going on with the headstock.  My assumption (since we were unable to see it in the video is the chuck on the headstock.

Put you a dead center in there (head stock) and marry them up and see where they point, then turn it on and see if it wobbles.  If it does wobble with the dead center then you have bearing problems.  If it runs true with the dead center but not with the chuck then you have a POS chuck.  In which case you can chuck it in the bin and get a good one.


----------



## keithncsu (Nov 27, 2016)

I'm not using a chuck. I have the PSI pen jaws that thread directly onto the spindle. I can't really see the wobble in the jaws like I do on the wheel. Wondering if somehow the wheel is out of round.


----------



## duncsuss (Nov 27, 2016)

keithncsu said:


> I'm not using a chuck. I have the PSI pen jaws that thread directly onto the spindle.



In general, anything that holds a workpiece to the driveshaft of a lathe is called a chuck. Examples are "jam chuck", "screw chuck", and "scroll chuck". What you got from PennState is their "Dedicated Pen Blank Drilling Chuck" (it's also possible to buy a set of pen blank jaws which fit their range of 4-jaw scroll chucks.)

Ignoring the wobble in the handwheel on the outboard side of the headstock for a minute, get a pen blank that's as close to square as you can find and put it in the jaws. Set the lathe running, doesn't matter how fast, and look at the end. You should be able to see a point in the center of the spinning blank that looks stationary, it's the center of rotation. Make a dot at that point with a fine-point sharpie or pencil.

Then stop the lathe, take out the blank, and draw lines between opposite corners. The place where they cross should be exactly the center of rotation you had just marked. If they aren't, then either your blanks isn't really square (which you should be able to determine with a try square) or your Pen Blank Drilling Chuck is bad.

The handwheel wobble should not affect small spindle turnings (such as pens) too badly but it is a source of vibration that will cause trouble if you are making bowls or hollowforms. On the other hand -- it shouldn't wobble, see if you can take it off the end of the shaft (it might have a set screw or simply be threaded onto the shaft -- possibly with a left-hand thread) and find out what's going on back there.


----------



## duncsuss (Nov 27, 2016)

There's another thread running at the moment that discusses the PennState Pen Blank Drilling Chuck ... it seems there have been some defective ones.

LINK


----------



## keithncsu (Nov 27, 2016)

I stand corrected on the chuck comment. When I hear chuck I immediately think of the huge NOVA beast.  

I'll double check the center mark but I haven't noticed them being off from what I mark on them. 

Also I read through that other thread and mine don't seem to be having that same issue. They close up pretty tight. If anything there is a small gap on the headstock side NOT at the tips.


----------

