# laws concerning feather use in pens



## John Pratt (Sep 19, 2011)

Does anyone know the laws concerning what feathers are banned for use in craft or other type projects like pens? I know Bald Eagle feathers may get you a pretty good fine, but are all birds of prey banned? Owls, red tail hawk? others?


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## GoodTurns (Sep 19, 2011)

I know not to even pick up any hawk or eagle feathers!  not sure about owls.


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## warthog (Sep 19, 2011)

*Pens and birds of prey*

Being that I was a taxidermist for many, many years...I feel that I am qualified to answer this question...DO NOT USE ANY FEATHERS OR ANY OTHER PART OF ANY BIRD THAT IS CONSIDERED A BIRD OF PREY...HAWKS...EAGLES...OWLS AND EVEN THE LOWLY BUZZARD OR VULTURE. THEY ARE ALL BIRDS OF PREY. Talk about getting into hot water. I think the laws need to be revamped. I see them on the highway all the time here in Mississippi...and they just lay there and waste away. I think it is a terrible waste.:frown::frown::frown:


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## StephenM (Sep 19, 2011)

Add song birds (at least here in Missouri) as well as migratory birds (federal).  Your best bet might be to go to a local fly tying place and see what they have for sale.


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## JohnU (Sep 19, 2011)

I dabble with feathers once in a while and have personal interaction with my local DNR and sheriffs office.  When it comes to birds, everyone above is correct.  No birds of prey, song birds or migratory birds.  What most dont know is you can't even use legally hunted birds if your making something to sell for profit, other than flies for fishing.  Every bird I acquire I have to show papers, being a bill of sale or domestic raised tag from the bird.  You can't even pick up a road kill during hunting season with a license.  I'm guessing they don't want to open that door to have to prove someone didn't take it legally. It's just easier to say no to every exception.  It's a shame to see those beautiful hawk feathers blowing away in the wind but not worth the fines when you get caught with one.  Every state is a little different with their laws so check with the local DNR before you do anything.


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## Gregf (Sep 19, 2011)

In Ohio at least, if you aren't allowed to kill it, you aren't allowed to possess any part of it.


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## Rick P (Sep 19, 2011)

Mr Pratt
The laws very from state to state, wildly! For example you can hunt snowy owls in parts of Alaska. In the lower 48 that will land you in jail. Possession of sand hill crane feathers will cause you some trouble in Michigan, in Alaska they are just left overs from dinner. With feathers you also get into international law. Macaw from a local bird that died is fine, import it and you'll have the local, federal and country of origins law officials after ya!

Thing to do is visit your local fly fishing shop, they know what they can/can not sell and the receipt protects you! Besides if you cant find the feather you want at a good fly fishing shop it doesn't exist!


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## BSea (Sep 19, 2011)

I'm glad I saw this.  I have a friend who runs a duck club, and I was going to ask him for some wood duck feathers.


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## cwolfs69 (Sep 19, 2011)

to d*** much government interference with our daily lives.


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## sbell111 (Sep 19, 2011)

cwolfs69 said:


> to d*** much government interference with our daily lives.



On the other hand it's pretty easy to understand why these laws exist.  As others aluded to, if you were allowed to use these 'found' feathers, then some would simply kill the animal and claim the feathers as 'found'.


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## BSea (Sep 19, 2011)

sbell111 said:


> cwolfs69 said:
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> > to d*** much government interference with our daily lives.
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Well, I can understand birds of prey, but feathers from birds that are regularly hunted legally doesn't really make sense.  That would be the same as saying you'd have to prove every antler used in a pen or knife was taken legally.


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## John Pratt (Sep 19, 2011)

Thanks guys. I thought that might be the case. Here in Oklahoma we have a rather large selection of birds of prey that you will find on the road side. I know the local tribes are allowed to use different feathers for ceremonies to include Eagle, but I knew that one was verbotten. Wasn't sure about the rest. I had a customer that asked about hawk and other type feathers. Rather than pay large fines, I thought it would be prudent to ask. One of the best parts of having or selling a nice pen is to show it off. Sooner or later I am sure it would get shown to the wrong person and that would result in bad consequences. I will stick to the master pieces created by John U.


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## shortcast (Sep 19, 2011)

cwolfs69 said:


> to d*** much government interference with our daily lives.


 
+1!!!


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## Monolith (Sep 19, 2011)

sbell111 said:


> cwolfs69 said:
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Don't punish the majority of law-abiding citizens because of a few bad apples.


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## JohnU (Sep 19, 2011)

BSea said:


> That would be the same as saying you'd have to prove every antler used in a pen or knife was taken legally.



In Illinois it's illegal to possess antler on skull plates if you don't have a deer tag or road kill tag to prove it was legal.  Also, it's illegal to sell road kill antler.  Only sheds or hunted deer kill antler, and if you cut the rack off a roadkill you only have 24 hours to report it and file for a tag. We have a TON of deer in IL and roadkill are pretty plentiful during the fall and winter season. I'm guessing it's pretty hard to stay up on these regulations unless you stumble across it while dealing with something else.  I keep reciepts and tags for everything.


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## ed4copies (Sep 19, 2011)

Gee John, sounds like you have a "stay within the law" fetish.  I wonder why???:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:


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## JohnU (Sep 19, 2011)

ed4copies said:


> Gee John, sounds like you have a "stay within the law" fetish.  I wonder why???:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:



Unfortunately they all know where I live. Lol


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## sbell111 (Sep 21, 2011)

Monolith said:


> sbell111 said:
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How would you otherwise solve the problem of the 'few bad apples'?


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## Monolith (Sep 21, 2011)

sbell111 said:


> Monolith said:
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You don't.  You accept some abuse in exchange for the freedom of not having big brother watching -- and fining -- your every move.


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## seamus7227 (Sep 21, 2011)

JohnU said:


> BSea said:
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> > That would be the same as saying you'd have to prove every antler used in a pen or knife was taken legally.
> ...


 
See, that doesnt fly here, its illegal to cut any roadkill antlers off without the GameWardens consent, and you better have his number handy while you are doing the cuttin', cuz people will call you in as they are passing by. Back in '09 i was told of a roadkill and it was gonna be my first antler to make a pen out of, so i called the Game warden and he authorized me to remove them. no sooner than i went to the site, hack sawed them off, and made it home, he(game warden) calls me back and tells me that there are 3 or 4 deputy sheriffs on their way out to me(deers location). So i told him no worries, i was already home!:biggrin: I didnt waste any time. So my point is, they do take this stuff serious, at least in this area, maybe its because they dont have anything else better to do!


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## nava1uni (Sep 21, 2011)

Or maybe it is because it is not just one person, but lots of them and then how do you ensure that the animals are being killed just for some part of them that someone deems valuable.  Polar bears and other animals are killed just for a part of them, not to eat, and then the animals. bird populations are decimated.
Just my opinion, but I have seen birds shot just for the sports and then left to die.  Seems wasteful and cruel.


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## Russianwolf (Sep 21, 2011)

If memory serves, In PA selling anything made from deer sheds collected in the state is illegal. So each state is very different and you need to find out what is and isn't illegal for your state.


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## JerrySambrook (Sep 21, 2011)

Here in Western Mass, we had a real bad depletion of black bears due to a few individuals going for just the gall bladder.


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## Russianwolf (Sep 21, 2011)

Monolith said:


> sbell111 said:
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Problem is if you make possession legal, then the person buying the illegally gained item (if they know or not) encourages the few bad apples to continue, and more bad apples to join. Pretty soon it gets out of hand and they are all gone.


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## seamus7227 (Sep 21, 2011)

JerrySambrook said:


> Here in Western Mass, we had a real bad depletion of black bears due to a few individuals going for just the gall bladder.


 
i watched a show on that on NatGeo a few weeks ago, bunch of sick individuals


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## sbell111 (Sep 21, 2011)

seamus7227 said:


> JerrySambrook said:
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> > Here in Western Mass, we had a real bad depletion of black bears due to a few individuals going for just the gall bladder.
> ...


I watched one yesterday on BBCA regarding shark fins.  It's apparently a huge business.  They catch the sharks (all types and sizes).  Cut off all of their fins and toss the body back in the ocean (often still thrashing about).


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## widows son (Sep 22, 2011)

Too bad you can't use skunk, armadillo or raccoon feathers. No shortage of those.


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## Daniel (Sep 22, 2011)

I once had the job of transporting Eagles to the reservations here in Nevada. The process that was required for me to have eagles in my possession was not pretty. At one time I was looking into providign fetahers for this group. My efforts lead me to the conclusion that breeding them was the best way to go. Fly Tying feather producers are already doing that as well. I will just say it gets complicated and expensive. I was looking at over $2000 jsut to get birds that woudl grow Jungle **** eyes for example. And then I coudl start the breeding to make the feathers worth anything. 4 years maybe and lots of money and careful breeding I might have had something to offer.
Buy em from the people already producing them.


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## warthog (Sep 22, 2011)

Any time you want to use something that is protected by the government...and even if you get a permit to use these items...the paper work is so over whelming that you will give up on it even before you get started. The laws that regulate migratory waterfowl...birds of prey and so on, are so antiquated...that there needs to be some improvements made to them to bring them in line with todays demands.


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## alphageek (Sep 22, 2011)

Please return this conversation to the current laws and what they mean to pen turning.

Debating how much government controls, rules, etc is political talk and not allowed by our AUP and if it continues I will have to close the thread.

Dean 
Asst mod


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## Justturnin (Sep 22, 2011)

Here is a list of birds protected by the Migratory Bird treaty act of 1918

http://www.fws.gov/migratorybirds/RegulationsPolicies/mbta/mbtandx.html#p

Then you have the Endangered Species Act (16 U.S.C.1531) but I cant find that list.

Here is some reading on it.  More or less 92% of native birds are protected.

http://www.npwrc.usgs.gov/resource/birds/birdlaws/index.htm#protect


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## JohnU (Sep 23, 2011)

Yep, bottom line is, if it wasn't domestic raised and you don't have a reciept, permit or tag to prove it, don't touch it.


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## Smitty37 (Sep 23, 2011)

*Not to me*



sbell111 said:


> cwolfs69 said:
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> > to d*** much government interference with our daily lives.
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In my opinion, for most animals  that "some" would range from none to darned few.

Since killing the animal is illegal I think a modicum of common sense could easily be applied to possession of parts.  I think such laws inconvenience a lot of people and preserve few animals.

All birds naturally drop feathers from time to time and a fair number meet an untimely death accidently.  There are probably a fair number of people who for various reasons might pick-up a pretty feather who would never even think of killing a bird.  I would.

Where I had my cabin a few years back you couldn't walk the roads without finding both turkey and vulture feathers simply because there were a lot of both turkeys and vultures around there.  Now and then a fox or coyote would get lucky and nab a turkey and there'd be a ton of feathers in that spot.

While I don't have any dog in the fight because I don't tie flies and I don't use feather blanks, I still think it is over regulation.


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## Smitty37 (Sep 23, 2011)

*hmmmm*



Russianwolf said:


> Monolith said:
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> > sbell111 said:
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Wondering how you would feel about halting all driving because a few bad apples will get drunk and kill someone with their car.....

That's an extreme example but the principle is the same.  A free society should not curtail freedoms of the multitudes because of actions of the few.  Catch and punish the law breakers don't rob the law abiding of their freedoms.

Freedom is difficult to gain and even more difficult to keep and in my opinion freedom is more important than *perhaps *saving a few birds.


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## Daniel (Sep 23, 2011)

alphageek said:


> Please return this conversation to the current laws and what they mean to pen turning.
> 
> Debating how much government controls, rules, etc is political talk and not allowed by our AUP and if it continues I will have to close the thread.
> 
> ...



Explain to me how the government regulating the use of feathers,. dos not fit directly into the use of feathers by penturners. Or are you jut exorcising that unwieldy hand of the moderators that i hear so much about lately. By the way delete this post because it criticizes you and I will spend the weekend pming it to every member I can. I am really getting sick of this nanny freakein bs around here. When did someone flush. this place is really turning to s**t fast. The next time I log on this site and am ****ed by something like this again is the last time I come here. Any more I log in with nothing but dread anyway. If you all want to turn this place into a sewer power to you. keep your mouth shut as you breast stroke though.


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## Timebandit (Sep 23, 2011)

I think you need a break anyway. Youve obviously got a few issues to work. Geeezzzzz!!!! Relax!!!



Daniel said:


> alphageek said:
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> > Please return this conversation to the current laws and what they mean to pen turning.
> ...


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## Smitty37 (Sep 23, 2011)

*Field day*



JohnU said:


> BSea said:
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> > That would be the same as saying you'd have to prove every antler used in a pen or knife was taken legally.
> ...


 
The officials would have had a field day at my buddies barn, he, his father before him and his grandfather before his father all cut the antlers off every buck they ever killed and nailed them onto the barn - there were dozens of them since they owned a piece of property that had some pretty decent whitetail habitat and they got a lot of bucks.  I'm sure they had tags for all of them when they were taken but after 40 or 50 years I imagine a lot of them had disappeared or crumbled with age.


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## Smitty37 (Sep 23, 2011)

*Irony*



JerrySambrook said:


> Here in Western Mass, we had a real bad depletion of black bears due to a few individuals going for just the gall bladder.


The irony of that is that if more states allowed the sale of legally taken black bears, the black market for gall bladders would probably dry up. Only about 7 or 8 states and a couple of Canadian providences allow selling the gall bladders of legally taken black bears (Mass is not one of them). 

The demand for them is culturally related in several Asian nations and all efforts so far to stem it have failed....Rhino Tusks, elephant ivory and certain tiger parts fall into the same category - the demand is cultural and deeply rooted.


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