# what kit for closed end cigar band pen?



## SkewedUp (Oct 8, 2014)

I have made several closed end cigar band roller ball pens using Jr Gent sized kits, but I need to make a larger version now. 

After looking at a lot of possibilities, I cannot decide on a kit. The ones I've looked at so far tend to be pricey kits, so I'd like to start with one I'm going to like well enough to keep using whenever I want a bigger pen.

So, please tell me what pen kit(s) you would use and why. Pictures of ones you have made would be fantastic too!

Thanks!


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## walshjp17 (Oct 8, 2014)

Try a Churchill or a Sedona.


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## SkewedUp (Oct 8, 2014)

Thanks for the reply John.

The Churchill is one I'm looking at but I'm not sure the Sedona is going to be any bigger than a Jr Gent. One problem I'm having is that I'm having to judge the size of the pens by the drill bits required to make the pen and that may not always be an accurate way to determine the finished size of the pen.

I guess I should have said in the original post that I plan to put the cigar band on the lower barrel (which will be closed end). And the reason I need a bigger pen is so that I can use a bigger cigar band than will work on the pen kits I've been using.

I should also mention that I do not have a "B" mandrel. I know I can get one, but it is just one more thing to consider.


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## its_virgil (Oct 8, 2014)

Bushings are available for the "A" mandrel for the Berea kits that use the "B" mandrel. 
Do a good turn daily! 
Don


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## Woodkiller (Oct 8, 2014)

Look in the library at the bushing chart. That will give you a better idea of the finished size than the drill size. Hope that helps.


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## Crashmph (Oct 8, 2014)

I have used the Full Sized gent from Timberbits quite successfully.


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## brez (Oct 8, 2014)

The Gents (Gentlemen's) pen is likely the lowest price of the full size rollerballs. The Statesman is the same size as the Gents. PSI has a Majestic that is about the same size. The Emperor is about the same size as well, but the lower barrel does not get slimmer like the Gents. etc., so it may be, overall, the largest (fattest) lower barrel. It's been a long time since I've turned a Churchill, but I think it is comparable to the Gents as well.


Mike


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## Dale Allen (Oct 8, 2014)

I don't understand how you can make a closed end blank on a mandrel, A or B!


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## Edgar (Oct 8, 2014)

Dale Allen said:


> I don't understand how you can make a closed end blank on a mandrel, A or B!



The way I do it is to wrap some painter's tape around the mandrel so there's a tight fit when you shove the tubed blank onto the mandrel. I use an adjustable mandrel, so I leave just enough of the rod sticking out for the closed end blank to fit on. Might not be the ideal way to do it, but it works.


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## plano_harry (Oct 8, 2014)

Get a Blingless Harvest from Timberbits.  Very affordable and almost the same as Cambridge.


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## avbill (Oct 8, 2014)

Baron/Sedona is smaller than the Jr. Gentlemen .


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## SkewedUp (Oct 8, 2014)

its_virgil said:


> Bushings are available for the "A" mandrel for the Berea kits that use the "B" mandrel.
> Do a good turn daily!
> Don



Thanks for that info Don - I found them at Beartooth Woods. I had no idea they were available. And thanks for many hours of reading I've spent reading your pearls of wisdom over the years too 



Woodkiller said:


> Look in the library at the bushing chart. That will give you a better idea of the finished size than the drill size. Hope that helps.



Thanks Woodkiller! I have spent a couple hours now reading those charts. Those spreadsheets are exactly what I needed to help compare the different pen kit sizes. Another thing I never knew about before today. I'm sure learning a lot of new stuff today.



Crashmph said:


> I have used the Full Sized gent from Timberbits quite successfully.



Thanks Crash! That is one kit that I'm taking a look at, but probably from CSUSA. Is there a difference?



brez said:


> The Gents (Gentlemen's) pen is likely the lowest price of the full size rollerballs. The Statesman is the same size as the Gents. PSI has a Majestic that is about the same size. The Emperor is about the same size as well, but the lower barrel does not get slimmer like the Gents. etc., so it may be, overall, the largest (fattest) lower barrel. It's been a long time since I've turned a Churchill, but I think it is comparable to the Gents as well.
> 
> 
> Mike



Thanks for your input Mike, I really appreciate that! Those were all on my list except for the Emporer, and after finding them at Exotic Blanks, I know why they are not on my list (yet). A little too much quality than I'm ready for at this time. Hopefully someday I'll be ready to spend that much for a pen kit, just not right now.



Dale Allen said:


> I don't understand how you can make a closed end blank on a mandrel, A or B!



It took me a while to figure it out Dale, but I've been using an adjustable mandrel and barrel trimming sleeves to make closed end pens. The sleeves I use are like these Barrel trimming Sleeves for Apollo Infinity Kits at Penn State Industries  and I just use masking tape on both sides of the sleeve to position it on the end of the adjustable mandrel. 

I still use the tailstock to hold the blank tight until I get the barrel turned and finished except for a tiny piece that has to be cut off the tip of the closed end. As long as you apply pressure on the tip of the closed end (towards the headstock), the barrel can be sanded and finished after parting off that last tiny piece. 

It takes a fairly long piece of timber for the closed end barrel because it has to extend a ways past the brass tube and you also have to part off enough of the blank to loose the dimple made by the tailstock.


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## SkewedUp (Oct 8, 2014)

Well, I've spent most of the day trying to at least identify the possible pen kits that will work and eliminate some for various reasons (my wife didn't like the looks of them )

I'm still not ready to choose one, so I thought maybe I should throw my list out here and let everyone give their thoughts about the kits and see if I can further reduce the list.

In no particular order, Apollo Infinity, Majestic, Churchill, El Grande, Panache, Zen, Statesman, and Gentleman pen kits. 

The Panache and Zen are ones that did not occur to me until I went through the bushings spreadsheet to see what pens have a lower barrel big enough for my purposes, but I think they both have some real possibilities.

So, any thoughts?


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## SkewedUp (Oct 8, 2014)

Oops, a couple new posts snuck in while I was typing my response. Apologies gents.



edohmann said:


> Dale Allen said:
> 
> 
> > I don't understand how you can make a closed end blank on a mandrel, A or B!
> ...



That would work too.



plano_harry said:


> Get a Blingless Harvest from Timberbits.  Very affordable and almost the same as Cambridge.



I saw those, but not sure I liked the red accents. Also not sure about the shipping from Ozzie land.



avbill said:


> Baron/Sedona is smaller than the Jr. Gentlemen .



After finding the bushings spreadsheets, it is easy to determine that now   Thanks again Woodkiller!


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## plano_harry (Oct 11, 2014)

That is a finished pen.  The red is the part you make.  Look at the Harvest Components and you will see the clip has a recess that you can fill with the material of your choice as well as custom centerband ring, finial, etc.

Don't worry about shipping, the truck floats, but it takes a little longer. :wink:  If you order $80 or more the shipping is free.  Those are the components I use for my realistic cigars.  I have ordered from him several times.



SkewedUp said:


> plano_harry said:
> 
> 
> > Get a Blingless Harvest from Timberbits.  Very affordable and almost the same as Cambridge.
> ...


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## Woodkiller (Oct 11, 2014)

Glad I could be of some help. I would probably exclude he infinity and go with the gent, majestic, or statesman. Are you making a rollerball or fountain?


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## SkewedUp (Oct 13, 2014)

plano_harry said:


> That is a finished pen.  The red is the part you make.  Look at the Harvest Components and you will see the clip has a recess that you can fill with the material of your choice as well as custom centerband ring, finial, etc.
> 
> Don't worry about shipping, the truck floats, but it takes a little longer. :wink:  If you order $80 or more the shipping is free.  Those are the components I use for my realistic cigars.  I have ordered from him several times.
> 
> ...



Thanks Harry. 

I wondered about the red accents but was not sure. I'll take a close look at that pen kit. This for an order that I need to complete by the end of November so I'm not sure about that slow floating truck. How long does it usually take for an order to get to you?



Woodkiller said:


> Glad I could be of some help. I would probably exclude he infinity and go with the gent, majestic, or statesman. Are you making a rollerball or fountain?



Thanks WK. This will be a rollerball, but I'd like to find a kit that I can use for both rollerballs and fountain pens in the future. It would be convenient if I could find a kit that has interchangeable rollerball/fountain pen components. That is what I am able to do currently and I'd like to find a bigger pen kit with the same capability for use with bigger cigar bands.

Thanks again for that bushings spreadsheet info. That is going to come in handy for more than one purpose.


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## KenV (Oct 13, 2014)

Doug --  the outside shape of a closed end section is independent of the tube size.   The biggest outsized kit on the market is the Geoff on a 7 mm tube.   The sides are just thick.

Other than fitting the refill and spring, it is wide open for extra length and diameter.  

If you want a particular cap- body hardware match, the outside diameter can still be as big as you want to make it.

So most any will do if you throw away the limits that come with bushings.


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## SkewedUp (Oct 13, 2014)

Thanks Ken.

I will be using the coupling components from the pen kit so I'll have to stick to the bushing measurements. And I have found that the cigar band is easier to work with if the barrel I'm putting it on has a consistent diameter rather than being tapered.

I actually have a couple of those Geoff kits but have not made one yet. However, I need to use a rollerball pen kit for my current project.

Thanks again for your reply.


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## plano_harry (Oct 13, 2014)

I think Timberbits takes about 10 days to arrive. The package usually ships out of Singapore.  Send David an email.  He can tell you what to expect.


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## mark james (Oct 13, 2014)

edohmann said:


> Dale Allen said:
> 
> 
> > I don't understand how you can make a closed end blank on a mandrel, A or B!
> ...



Kurt Hertzog did a demo at our AAW club this year doing exactly that.  I've made several (very poorly) and it does work pretty well.  Just need to be careful you don't crack the blank...  DAMHIK....


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## SkewedUp (Oct 13, 2014)

plano_harry said:


> I think Timberbits takes about 10 days to arrive. The package usually ships out of Singapore.  Send David an email.  He can tell you what to expect.



Thanks Harry. 

I still have not decided which pen kit I'm going to use for this projcect, but I'll check with Timberbits about the shipping details if I decide to go with that pen kit.


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## Rick_G (Oct 13, 2014)

The spring blossom rollerball from timberbits is the largest I have made.  I just measured it and the cap is 54mm around and the barrel is 49 mm.  That translates to 1.93" and 2.126" around.


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## Dale Allen (Oct 13, 2014)

I'll be interested to see what this looks like since it seems you are going to have the centerband showing.  An average larger cigar is a 50-54 ring size and that is considerably larger than the centerbands on any of these pens mentioned.


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## SkewedUp (Oct 13, 2014)

Rick_G said:


> The spring blossom rollerball from timberbits is the largest I have made.  I just measured it and the cap is 54mm around and the barrel is 49 mm.  That translates to 1.93" and 2.126" around.



Thanks Rick.

I saw that kit at Timberbits and it looks like a really big pen. I was not sure about the drill bits is specifies: *Drill Bit* 11/32" (8.7mm) and 14.5mm". Is the lower tube really only 11/32"? But the real issue for me was the bling on that pen kit - just not quite what I'm looking for in a cigar band pen.



Dale Allen said:


> I'll be interested to see what this looks like since it seems you are going to have the centerband showing.  An average larger cigar is a 50-54 ring size and that is considerably larger than the centerbands on any of these pens mentioned.



Thanks Dale.

I do want the center band showing. I don't need the entire cigar band to be used. I always have to trim some off the bands I have used, but I have some that cannot be trimmed small enough to work without losing some of the wording on the cigar band. That has always been an issue for me and I've wanted to find a larger pen kit to use for some really nice cigar bands that won't fit well on the Jr Gent sized pen kits.  I got a request to use a specific cigar band that is going to require a bigger pen than I've previously used so it is time for me to find the kit I want to use for those bigger cigar bands.


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## Dale Allen (Oct 14, 2014)

Doug, I made this one some months ago and gave it to a co-worker.
I exaggerated the upper barrel to accommodate the band.
It uses a cigar kit which has a rather small centerband.
If you are using one end as closed and use a large centerband kit you should be able to make the barrel large enough to use about a 50 ring size band.  May look odd though!:biggrin:


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## SkewedUp (Oct 15, 2014)

Dale Allen said:


> Doug, I made this one some months ago and gave it to a co-worker.
> I exaggerated the upper barrel to accommodate the band.
> It uses a cigar kit which has a rather small centerband.
> If you are using one end as closed and use a large centerband kit you should be able to make the barrel large enough to use about a 50 ring size band.  May look odd though!:biggrin:



I've always thought it would be interesting to make a cigar band pen using a cigar pen kit Dale. I really like the idea.

A closed end might look really good on the upper barrel of a cigar pen like that, though that would lose the clip. Interesting concept, and thanks for showing your pen. Though I'm going to have to go with a rollerball pen kit for my current project. I'm gonna have to add a "cigar band cigar pen" to my round tuit list now .


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## SkewedUp (Dec 10, 2014)

*The completed pen*

The kit chosen by the customer from the ones I had narrowed it down to was a Statesman Rollerball in Rhodium/Black Ti plating.

I actually got this pen made before Thanksgiving (just barely in time) but I am just now getting around to posting the pictures. I delivered the pen to my customer last weekend at a Christmas craft show and he is very happy with the pen.

Closed end Statesman rollerball in Curly Koa wood with the cap on.


 



 

Closed end Statesman rollerball in Curly Koa wood with the cap off.


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## AndyUK (Dec 10, 2014)

Hi Doug, even looking in from England that is an absolutely stunning piece of work!!

Well done and thank you for the comprehensive thread. Great for someone like me just starting out


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## SkewedUp (Dec 11, 2014)

Thanks for your response Andy. I'm glad that you are able to see the pen well from across the pond.  I'm not surprised by that because this is one very big pen


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## Woodkiller (Dec 12, 2014)

That turned out beautifully. One of those is on my long list of things to try at some point.


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## ClutchCargo (Dec 14, 2014)

Beautiful work on the closed end Statesman, Doug!

I have a question. I've never been a cigar smoker, so I don't know the answer. I noticed in your photos that the cigar band itself is upside down from the perspective of the pen being capped and standing upright as it would be when clipped in a shirt pocket. Is this the preferred method or doesn't it matter what direction the cigar band faces (i.e. personal preference)? Thanks.


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## SkewedUp (Dec 14, 2014)

-


Woodkiller said:


> That turned out beautifully. One of those is on my long list of things to try at some point.
> 
> *Thanks WK. They definitely add to the conversations when you have one of  them displayed on your table at a craft show. It brings a smile to the  face of almost every guy who has ever smoked a cigar*





ClutchCargo said:


> Beautiful work on the closed end Statesman, Doug!
> 
> *Thanks Clutch!*
> 
> ...


-


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## ClutchCargo (Dec 17, 2014)

Thanks for your perspective on the cigar band direction, Doug. I have no experience with cigar smoking, so when I turned my first closed end cigar pen I placed the cigar band on the longer, lower barrel with the cigar band positioned about an inch and a half up from the closed end with the wording on the cigar band being readable with the pen standing upright (i.e. with the pen capped and the clip at the top). That led to discussions with others, each of whom had a different opinion of how "high" the cigar band should be placed from the closed end of the pen and what direction the cigar band should face (i.e. right side up or upside down). There seemed to be no consensus whatsoever. Some thought the cigar band direction didn't matter, while others thought the cigar band's placement should be higher and closer to the rollerball tip. Your theory has merit for the "display" of pens and for providing customers with immediate ink flow. I then stopped in a cigar shop and noticed that just about every displayed cigar had the cigar band near the top of the cigar and facing in the direction so the purchaser could read the cigar band wording with the cigar standing upright. Converting that to a pen, however, would put the cigar band inappropriately on the cap and under the clip, which doesn't look good at all. So it seems to me that there's a lot of room for interpretation and personal opinion here, with how one "displays" or "markets" the pen being of primary importance.

I'd like to hear others' opinions and their justifications. Thanks.


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## SkewedUp (Dec 17, 2014)

I went through some of the same issues when I first started making cigar band pens. I made some with the cap being closed end which looks great and allows the pen to be displayed correctly, but then there is no clip on the cap. I also did a couple that were closed end on both barrels. Those 2 styles were OK for some customers and not for others.

Every choice for placement and orientation of the cigar band has it's issues, so there really is no right or wrong way to do them. I just chose what felt right for me and that is how I do them now. That is half the fun of this crazy hobby - experimenting with all kinds of different materials, styles, shapes, etc. and seeing where your imagination leads you.  When someone purchases something you made, then you know you did something right, or at least well enough that one person thought it was worth the cost  

I too would like to see some others share their thoughts on the cigar band placement, and any other thoughts on a closed end cigar band pens.


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## ClutchCargo (Dec 22, 2014)

SkewedUp said:


> Every choice for placement and orientation of the cigar band has it's issues, so there really is no right or wrong way to do them. I just chose what felt right for me and that is how I do them now.........I too would like to see some others share their thoughts on the cigar band placement, and any other thoughts on a closed end cigar band pens.



I'm really beginning to feel that both *cigar band placement* AND *direction of the wording on the cigar band* are all a matter of personal opinion. I asked a friend of mine who smokes cigars and his response was "As for cigar band placement I can only speak from the enjoyment side. Bands usually are about an inch to an inch and a half from the mouth side of the cigar." Having never smoked a cigar, I don't think it's unreasonable for me to wonder what end is the "mouth side" of a cigar that looks equally round on both ends any more than I can expect someone who's never seen a lathe to differentiate "head stock" from "tail stock." Since the goal is to replicate the look of a real cigar, I thought the questions of 1) the placement of the cigar band along the length of a pen that's capped and standing upright with the cap at the top, and 2) the proper positioning of the wording on the cigar band (i.e. right side up or upside down) with the pen in the same position would be a simple matter to find out. Wrong! So, Doug, as I requested and as you reiterated, I too would like to see some others who have made cigar band pens share their thoughts on the cigar band placement (and direction of the wording), and any other thoughts on closed end cigar band pens. Thanks.


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