# Finish over dye?



## micharms (Apr 5, 2016)

I have a custom order for a fountain pen and need to try and match a specific colour. I have used spirit dyes and achieved the colour close to what I want but when I try to apply a CA finish everything becomes very blotchy and the dye bleed into the CA. I have tried a couple of different things to topcoat the dye before applying the CA but none of them have worked to my satisfaction. I thought I had the solution by applying WTF over top. I let everything dry for 2 or more days between dyeing and applying WTF. I then dud the same between the WTF and CA finish but when I start to sand and polish there are little shiny areas under the CA. They kind of look like bubbles but aren't. Sorry for the long post but I need some help in getting this finished. Any ideas?  I searched the site but didn't really find anything that seemed to help. Maybe I didn't look hard enough but time is becoming of the essence so hence my question

Thanks
Michael


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## corgicoupe (Apr 5, 2016)

Try sealing it with a 1# cut shellac. Add 2 parts alcohol to 1 part shellac from the can. You might even discover that a 1:1 mixture will work ad a final finish rather than the ca. Several coats will give the build and then finish with 2 coats of wax. Do all procedures with the lathe turning. This gives a finish that is more "matte" than ca, but the character if the wood is more apparent.


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## sschering (Apr 5, 2016)

I had good luck using Alumilite dye as a wipe on under CA. 
You can get some off with WTF to tone it down but the WTF will not stay.
Top coat with CA and finish as normal.

Downside.. over a year or so that bright red has gone a bit pink but my blue pen has held it's color. Maybe the red dye is just soaking in more or I went heavier with the blue.. Anyway.. go dark..


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## micharms (Apr 5, 2016)

Thanks for the replies. I tried shellac and unfortunately the dye just bleeds into the shellac and lightens.

The lumilite dye is an interesting idea. I have to blend a few colours to get the final colour I need. It is very much a trial and error process so I would probably use up/ waste a fair bit of the dyes.

Right now I'm experimenting with fewer coats of WTF, Craft Coat, walnut oil and eco house oil for sealer coats.

Michael


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## sschering (Apr 5, 2016)

If you get the dye from Hobby lobby using a 40% off coupon it's not that expensive.. a tiny bit goes a long way. 

I was thinking and another reason this pen is fading may be the hackberry..   Not a super dense wood.  the others I did were buckeye burls.


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## micharms (Apr 5, 2016)

Unfortunately we don't have hobby lobbys up here in Canada. I might try a small batch mix to see if I can get something close and give it a whirl.


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## corgicoupe (Apr 5, 2016)

micharms said:


> Thanks for the replies. I tried shellac and unfortunately the dye just bleeds into the shellac and lightens.
> 
> The lumilite dye is an interesting idea. I have to blend a few colours to get the final colour I need. It is very much a trial and error process so I would probably use up/ waste a fair bit of the dyes.
> 
> ...


Does it make any difference if you seal it before or after applying the stain? Why would an alcohol dye bleed into the finish?


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## jttheclockman (Apr 5, 2016)

Spray a dewaxed shellac. Do not wipe on. Let dry before applying top coat.


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## micharms (Apr 6, 2016)

Robert- don't know why it bleeds but it sure does.

John- spraying the shellac makes sense. I'll give it a try.

Michael


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## conandy (Apr 6, 2016)

Spirit Dye is alcohol based, so unfortunately shellac over it is probably not a good idea.  Spraying is probably a better idea than wiping, though.  If you used a water based dye instead, you might not have the same issue.  

I'm honestly surprised it bleeds into the CA.  That is the one top coat I would have bet would have worked.


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## micharms (Apr 6, 2016)

Spraying the shellac seems to have worked without bleeding and blotchiness. Tomorrow I will apply CA coats on my test piece and see what happens.

Thanks to all for the input. Wish I'd asked the question before starting the process. I'm still hoping I can save the original lower barrel since it has a knot in it and that is about the only character this wood has. If it didn't have some historical and sentimental significance I would have recommended a different wood to my customer and forgone the dyeing.

Michael


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## jttheclockman (Apr 6, 2016)

conandy said:


> Spirit Dye is alcohol based, so unfortunately shellac over it is probably not a good idea.  Spraying is probably a better idea than wiping, though.  If you used a water based dye instead, you might not have the same issue.
> 
> I'm honestly surprised it bleeds into the CA.  That is the one top coat I would have bet would have worked.




I use alcohol based dyes for woodworking projects and have no problem with sealing with a dewaxed based shellac. CA does not work because the property that removes CA is acetone. Acetone will disolved most dyes.


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## Olivewood Pen Blanks (Apr 8, 2016)

Great work


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## sschering (Apr 10, 2016)

Sorry for the bad picture.

One I did last night..

Red palm blank, Alumilite blue dye wiped on till it was almost solid blue/black then WTF applied 6 times to remove dye until the desired color depth is achieved. Yes WTF will remove the dye.. 
Finished with CA.. no sealing was needed. 

I check with another person who had a red buckeye pen I did in 2014.. No fading. It must be something about the spalted hackberry that caused the fading in my other red pen.


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## efrulla (Apr 10, 2016)

I turned a pen today from birds eye maple and used Keda yellow dye.  Left it on the lather and gave it 3 coats of gloss lacquer and then CA.  Did not bleed at all and looks really great.


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