# Ligero Limitations



## Jim in Oakville (Nov 3, 2007)

Hi,

I had a table at an annual show I do today, had a curious thing happen with a Ligero fountain pen.

A customer liked the Ligero and asked if it took a regular cartridge, I could not get it to fit in the pen, it was too long for the pen.  Also tried a pen pump and it too was too long.  I know the pen body is the right length, I know it turned to final length as well as per spec.   

Thinking quickly moved his attention to a similar pen body, I ended selling him a Churchill with no problems, but it still is a strange outcome to me with the Ligero, am I missing something?? [B)]


And no, the spring for the RB was out![:0]


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## Randy_ (Nov 3, 2007)

Jim:  You said you knew the pen body was the correct length.....can you tell us how you know that?  Most kit instructions don't list tube lengths so it is difficult to know that things are OK.

The ink cartridge has to fit in the pen so two things come immediately to mind.  One is that you milled the pen body too short and the other is that CSUSA sent you the wrong length tube.

I have measurements for quite a few pen kits; but unfortunately, not the Ligero.  Maybe someone here at IAP can measure the tube lengths of a properly working Ligero and you can compare with yours.


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## olsenla (Nov 3, 2007)

Jim,

I have a Ligero fountain pen here I still haven't inked.  I measured the barrel and it is 2.210 inches, that includes the trim ring on each end.  It looks like the only cartridge that will fit it is the shortys that they send with the kit.  I had some longer Waterman cartridges and they won't work.  The diameter of the end cap on the pen is to small to let the cartridge go up into it.  I don't have any pumps to try.  Hope this is useful.

Larry


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## RussFairfield (Nov 4, 2007)

You might not have done anything wrong. Did I read that you were trying to use a long standard fountain pen ink cartridge, and not the short cartridge that comes with the kit??  I also assume that this is a pen with a cap pressed on the end of the tube and not a closed-end.

A common problem with many kit pens is that the long cartridge has to fit inside of the end cap, and the diameter of the ink cartridge is too large. That's why the kits always supply the short cartridge. Unfortunately, most of the cartridges we can buy at local stores are the long length.

A twist reservoir can have the same problem. The Schmidt reservoirs are about 3/16" too long and they bottom out inside of the end cap. You will have to remove some length from the twist knob to make it fit. The kit reservoirs are shorter than the Schmidt, but these too can end up being a little long in some kits if the wood is trimmed too much. 

The rollerball is not a problem because the spring and ink stick are a smaller diameter and will fit inside the end cap.  

This is not a new problem. It has plagued the fountain pens since the first Parker-style Ameroclassic fountain pen about 15 years ago.


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## Randy_ (Nov 4, 2007)

> _Originally posted by RussFairfield_
> 
> .....You will have to remove some length from the twist knob to make it fit. The kit reservoirs are shorter than the Schmidt, but these too can end up being a little long in some kits if the wood is trimmed too much.....



I have never made a Ligero kit; but it seems like there is another way to attack the problem.  Instead of shortening things that go inside the barrel, one could buy an extra set of tubes and make the body enough longer to accommodate the converter or the long cartridge.  This won't help with pens that are already assembled; but it will eliminate the issue in the future.


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## Jim in Oakville (Nov 4, 2007)

Thanks Every one,

Russ and Larry have made  the same observation I did, the end cap ID is smaller than the end of the OD of the long cartidge or the pump, weird.

The body length is very similar to what you measured Larry as well.  I thought I was loosing my mind, Randy, the reason I felt that the body was the correct length was that this same pen accepts a standard roller ball cartridge with no problems.  I assume that meant that it would accept a long cartidge or standard pump, but I guess this is not the case so only the Short Ink cartidges will work.

If I wanted to make this pen design work otherwise I'd make the body longer or find a way to drill the end cap to a slightly larger ID then it would work....not going there..[:0]
Thanks for taking the time all of you to respond and think it through with me..you all have helped


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## Jim in Oakville (Nov 4, 2007)

> _Originally posted by Firefyter-emt_
> 
> Well I feel like a poster boy for DCBluesman latley, but what about the vacuum pump converters he has, would that fit the pen?? Sounds like a much better plan than ripping the pen apart or making them use those silly little vials.



That does sound like an option, I do not know where to look, could you please post a link, Thanks


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## Firefyter-emt (Nov 4, 2007)

Well I feel like a poster boy for DCBluesman latley, but what about the vacuum pump converters he has, would that fit the pen?? Sounds like a much better plan than ripping the pen apart or making them use those silly little vials.


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## RussFairfield (Nov 4, 2007)

I solved the problem by cutting the tube in half, and poking it into a longer drilled blank from both ends and leaving a gap in the middle.


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## Jim in Oakville (Nov 4, 2007)

> _Originally posted by RussFairfield_
> 
> I solved the problem by cutting the tube in half, and poking it into a longer drilled blank from both ends and leaving a gap in the middle.



I have done that before too Russ, Thanks


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## DCBluesman (Nov 4, 2007)

If you are in need of shorter converters, I sell two sizes.  The short will fit the Little Havana or the El Toro.  The long is about 1/4" shorter than the standard piston converters.  They are $3.50 each or 10 for $25 plus postage.


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## Jim in Oakville (Nov 4, 2007)

> _Originally posted by DCBluesman_
> 
> If you are in need of shorter converters, I sell two sizes.  The short will fit the Little Havana or the El Toro.  The long is about 1/4" shorter than the standard piston converters.  They are $3.50 each or 10 for $25 plus postage.



DO you ship to Canada?

[8D][8D][8D][8D]


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## DCBluesman (Nov 4, 2007)

I ship anywhere the US Postal Service will get it...that includes Canada!!


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## gerryr (Nov 5, 2007)

This appears to be a really poor design that could easily have been fixed.  Didn't anybody complain to CS about this before?  This isn't a new pen.  Maybe this is why they're discontinuing it.


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## DCBluesman (Nov 5, 2007)

I'm betting this problem didn't come up because until recently CS USA did not include converters with their kits. [8D]


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## gerryr (Nov 5, 2007)

I've been buying converters and putting them in CS kits for over a year and I'm sure I'm not the only one.  I've just never made a Ligero because the design never did anything for me, much like the El Grande.


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## Tea Clipper (Nov 5, 2007)

Did the Ligero change design?  I have several Ligeros I made last year and it takes a Berea converter with no problem.  I can also use private reserve cartridges, so I don't understand why you're having a problem Jim.


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## Jim in Oakville (Nov 5, 2007)

> _Originally posted by Tea Clipper_
> 
> Did the Ligero change design?  I have several Ligeros I made last year and it takes a Berea converter with no problem.  I can also use private reserve cartridges, so I don't understand why you're having a problem Jim.




Hi Ron, 

Well it's hard to know..I am using the universal Waterman cartidges as well, they work on everything else...oh well, I have a solution now.


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## PenWorks (Nov 5, 2007)

Jim, I just looked at one on the shelf, it has a full size schmidt converter in it. Not sure what is up with yours.


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## bob393 (Nov 11, 2007)

> _Originally posted by gerryr_
> 
> ...  Maybe this is why they're discontinuing it.



This is my favorite pen! Are they really discontinuing it?


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## Jim in Oakville (Nov 20, 2007)

Well I sat down with my Ligero in question and a few other finished versions and unmade kits.  I have a short Ligero, by 0.180", the tube is short and I found two more in the remaining 20 kits I have.  They are long enough to take a roller ball but not a pump or cartidge.

Check your tubes, sheeze[B)]


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## DCBluesman (Nov 20, 2007)

> _Originally posted by Jim in Oakville_
> 
> They are long enough to take a roller ball but not a pump or cartidge.
> 
> Check your tubes, sheeze[B)]


Jim - the short squeeze-type converters that I carry are 1-13/16" long total. (Source: my 25' Stanley Leverlock Tape Measure, Model 30-925)  If they will fit, I will gladly send you 3.  Email me with your mailing address.


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## gcurran (Mar 19, 2008)

I have a customer that wants a Ligero FP, but not with the cartridge.  After reading this topic, I am still confused as to the applicability of any of the converters.  Jim, did Lou's squeeze-type converters fit? or did you go with the shorter twist style?


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## DCBluesman (Mar 19, 2008)

George, I have several Ligero's which accept the long vacuum converters I carry.  In this case, Jim received some kits where the lower barrel tube was 0.180" shorter than normal.  The short vacuum pumps I carry fit this shorter tube just fine.  I hope this helps.


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## gcurran (Mar 19, 2008)

Lou, PM sent.


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## Dan_F (Mar 19, 2008)

> _Originally posted by DCBluesman_
> 
> If you are in need of shorter converters, I sell two sizes.  The short will fit the Little Havana or the El Toro.  The long is about 1/4" shorter than the standard piston converters.  They are $3.50 each or 10 for $25 plus postage.



I recently had the same problem trying to fit one of Lou's squeeze type converters into a Ligero, and initially thought that the length was the culprit. It turns out that the metal jacket on the converter on the nib end will not fit into the recess in the section, so that the plastic male thingy inside the section cant mate with the female plastic thingy in the converter. If the metal jacket of the converter left 1/8" more of the plastic nib end showing, there wouldn't be a problem. I took on of the shorter converters to my grinder, and ground off about 1/8" of the metal on the nib end, and it now fits the pen. 

I also tried cutting of the tip of a twist converter, but found that the tip just houses the twist mechanism, so that when the plunger is drawn up, the cartridge is as long as it was with the tip in place. The threads on the plunger have to go somewhere!. 

I have yet to grind one of the long squeeze converters, but it appears that they would work in the Ligero too. Would be nice if one didn't have to do that, it looks pretty tacky.

I posted about this in the Fountain Pen forum, but only got one or two responses, about how the converters fit in Churchills or El Grande's.

I tried to fit a converter in a Churchill section, with nearly the same result--the converter mated enough to just barely hold it in place, but would not fully seat, felt like it could come loose if jiggled too much. 

Dan


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## DCBluesman (Mar 19, 2008)

Dan - If the converters do not work for you, please drop me a note and I will issue a refund.  I use the converters in Ligeros and Churchill's, but that does not mean that you are not experiencing difficulties.


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## Dan_F (Mar 19, 2008)

Lou---Thanks for the offer, but no need to return them, they work fine with the other pens from CSUSA, just not the Ligero. Perhaps they used more than one section for those pens, and the ones I got were made differently.

Dan


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## Jim in Oakville (Mar 19, 2008)

> _Originally posted by gcurran_
> 
> I have a customer that wants a Ligero FP, but not with the cartridge.  After reading this topic, I am still confused as to the applicability of any of the converters.  Jim, did Lou's squeeze-type converters fit? or did you go with the shorter twist style?



It fit well George...I have also fit them on other pens....no issues...metal lathe there yet???[:0]


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## gcurran (Mar 19, 2008)

I found that a converter from an El Grande fits.   That fixes me for this pen and customer.  I see an order with Lou for converters and ink in the very near future, though.

As far as the lathe - it is due to arrive tomorrow afternoon via UPS (I am guessing about 5 or so).  When it gets here I will post a gloat![}]


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## Firefyter-emt (Mar 19, 2008)

I am very curious here.  I just took a Ligero RB that I had made and tried to insert one of Lou's converters and a FP section into the pen.  Sure enough it did not seem to want to fit.  Now, this is with the spring in the post end, and it does not want to come out easy.

What is very odd is that the Churchill/El-Grande post end is not the same thread, unlike cap threads so I can not just swap it with a spare El-Grande post end. 

I can easily fit on of Lou's conveter in the Ligero as the long one is the same length as the rollerball. But you will be bushing the spring down like the RB refill. That will not work well so you will need to get that spring out.  Now at this point I just realized that I do in fact have a FP kit, not just the FP section....  My FP post end did not have the spring and original style converter fit just fine as did Lou's long converter.  

Is there a chance you had a spring in there? Maybe just a defective post cap?

I personaly have never had one not fit unless I messed up the tubes.  I use Lou's converters in the Jr.Statesman, Churchill, Ligero, Gent & El-Grande without any fitment problems so this is a strange issue.


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## gcurran (Mar 19, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Firefyter-emt_
> 
> Is there a chance you had a spring in there? Maybe just a defective post cap?
> 
> I personaly have never had one not fit unless I messed up the tubes.  I use Lou's converters in the Jr.Statesman, Churchill, Ligero, Gent & El-Grande without any fitment problems so this is a strange issue.



Lee

The Ligero kit was a fountain pen kit and one of the first things I checked was for a spring - none installed.  The kit only came with a cartridge and the customer is not fond of those and asked for a converter.  I worked offline with Jim in Oakville, who reported this problem about 18 months ago, and found that the pen was sized correctly ( at least my pen measurements matched Jim's).  I think that the problem stems from the post end cap being smaller in diameter inside.

Hope that helps.


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## Firefyter-emt (Mar 19, 2008)

Very good chance then that it was drilled improperly. You might of been able to fit one of Lou's long ones in there as they are a bit shorter than the Schmidtt's and the short one would be a no brainer.

Very strange indeed!


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## Texatdurango (Mar 19, 2008)

Well since I have dozens of Ligero fountain kits, this discussion interested me so I did some measuring and took a few photos.

For starters, the kit lower brass section which I measured to be 1.98" long, is indeed too short by about .100" to accept a Schmidt converter and good remedies have been discussed.

The pump bulb converter mentioned above definitely does fit in a "stock" Ligero with 1.98" tubes without any interference so is a good alternative to rubber cartridges.  The pump bulb converter also fits nicely in the Ligero nib holder without modification, I tried 5 converters in 5 different holders with no problems.

Here are a few shots to demonstrate what was said above...


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