# Dying Burls



## Russet (Feb 2, 2006)

After reading the forums and info letters, I built a vacuum chamber out of a pickle jar and stabilized some cotton wood burl that I had harvested. I was very pleased with results using polyurethane. As I like to try new things, I then tried using a wood stain mixed in with my Poly and was initially impressed but after turning the blanks I noticed that the stain had not penetrated the burl very well. I have searched the forums and have not found a satisfactory answer to a question I'm about to pose. When dying a blank that will be stabilized do you do it before the poly, what dye do you use, do you dye it in a vacuum chamber, do you stabilize-turn-dye then finish. I would like to achieve bright vibrant colors in the cotton wood burl, but it definitely needs to be stabilized before turning.

Thanks 
Russet[8D]


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## vick (Feb 2, 2006)

Just an opinion but here it is.  I also used tinted poly  for stabelization before and did not get as much color as I would have liked.  I quit doing home stabelization but if I were you I would try the dye first before the poly.  I think due to its lower viscosity it will penetrate better on its own.
I assume you have a small hole drilled in the blank when you stabelize to help penetration.  I would make sure to also have the hole for the dyeing process.


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## JimGo (Feb 2, 2006)

I'd also consider trying to get the blank closer to the appropriate dimensions before dying.  I know this goes counter to the idea of stabilizing, but once the poly is in there, it's going to be hard to stain it (I think).  I agree with Mike, either way I'd try to stain before using the poly since the stain should be thinner than the poly and should penetrate deeper into the wood.


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## Dario (Feb 2, 2006)

I haven't done stabilizing yet but if what you guys are saying is true (that stain is thinner than poly) then is the poly penetrating at all?

I mean isn't it that if the poly and the dye is mixed...they should penetrate the voids at the same time?  Unless the wood is filtering the stain while the poly goes in.  If that is the case then even if you do the stain first...it still might not work.


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## punkinn (Feb 2, 2006)

I was following this thread because I'm interested in doing the same thing...  very interesting comments.   

I think Dario is right in that the poly must not be penetrating much or the dye would show the extent of penetration in the blank (if the dye and poly were mixed to begin with).  

I've never attempted this before, but would the amount of time the blank is left under pressure affect the degree of penetration of the poly/dye?   Or would the pressure setting need to be increased?   

Nancy


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## vick (Feb 2, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Dario_
> <br />I haven't done stabilizing yet but if what you guys are saying is true (that stain is thinner than poly) then is the poly penetrating at all?
> 
> I mean isn't it that if the poly and the dye is mixed...they should penetrate the voids at the same time?  Unless the wood is filtering the stain while the poly goes in.  If that is the case then even if you do the stain first...it still might not work.


Dario -  You are thinking the same thing I was I had used the tinted poly previously to test penetration.  There was some color change but not as much as I would have liked. Definately not a Dyed wood look. I am not sure if my test was completely valid but I am not a scientist[].  I would say that I know there is some peneration since if I do not let the blank sit long enough for the poly to cure after turning when I sand I got a goopy mess.  That would indicate to me that poly was definately in the wood.

Take it with a grain of salt like I said I no longer do home stabelization.  Though if I get particuliarly punky wood I may try again.


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## Russet (Feb 2, 2006)

Russet here again,
    Here is some more info on my procedures. All blanks had been drilled, cut to length but not turned. I first attempted plain Poly and got a darkening of the grain which was very nice. I then tried poly with dark walnut stain to see if I could get a more bold effect, after turning both pens I noticed very little difference. I then started with fresh poly and used red mahogany stain. The blanks looked real promising when removed and dried but after turning there was very little color difference from the two previous attempts. I did notice when I removed the blanks from either stain mixture that there seemed to be allot of caked on stain on the outside and hole of the blanks.
   Any help on my original questions would be appreciated.
Duane[8D]


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## vick (Feb 2, 2006)

Stain or dye? Your original post said dye, this one says stain.  They are very different and I would not be suprised if you got no color change with mixing stain in your poly. I would expect better result with dye.


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## Dario (Feb 2, 2006)

Yep...stain and dye are not the same and their penetration ability is totally different.  I think is is because of their pigment size.


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## Russet (Feb 2, 2006)

I'm sorry, it was stain that I used, can you reccomend a dye that would work for me in poly?
Duane


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## rfreeouf (Feb 2, 2006)

Would it be best to do a two step process? Try dying \ staining and then stabalizing the blank? It would seem if you could get the color to absorb better seperately you always could go back and stabalize them. Just a thought.


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## vick (Feb 2, 2006)

I agree the 2 step is probably beter but you woudl have to experiment to find out.

i have never tried mixing it with poly but if I was going to try I would use Trans Tint that you can pick up at Woodcraft. Primarily because it it is the dye I usually use and it comes in more wood like colors.
People have spoke highly of
http://www.woodturnerscatalog.com/cgi-bin/shopper?search=action&keywords=artisan-dye
or
http://www.woodturnerscatalog.com/cgi-bin/shopper?search=action&keywords=aniline-dye
but I am not partial to there color selection.


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## jrc (Feb 3, 2006)

Alcohol dye will work the best. Oil stain will not penetrate evenly.


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## Spike (Feb 3, 2006)

how about using minwax poly-shade stain? i use it on flat work. it has ploy mixed in with the stain.


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## vick (Feb 3, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Spike_
> <br />how about using minwax poly-shade stain? i use it on flat work. it has ploy mixed in with the stain.



That is what I had used before.  It tinted the Maple Burls some but nothing drastic.


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## alamocdc (Feb 4, 2006)

Unless the wood is very punky and porous, wood stains won't work. The color pigmets are just too large to get into the wood very deep. On top of that the pigment solids will stack up on and next to each other and form a seal of sorts. We use this principle in the oil field with drilling fluids (called mud). I was a mud engineer in a past life. [] When I vac stabilized with poly I got good penetration. Briefly considered trying to add a stain to it, but quickly thought about the solids issue and changed my mind. If you want true color penetration, you'll have to use an alcohol based dye and then stabilize... like has been theorized here already. Another option is to stabilize the blank, turn it to size and then apply a topical dye before finishing. I've been using highlighters with pretty good success. Being a cheapskate I had another idea, but haven't tried it yet. Anything that dissolves in water should dissolve in alcohol (DNA). This got me to thinking about Ritz fabric dyes. Like I said, I haven't tried it yet, but I will... eventually. The reason I say alcohol is because it should flash off fairly quickly. JMSO... S = scientific


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## angboy (Feb 4, 2006)

Can you die a blank without having to also stabilize it? Or is stabilizing pretty much required with dye, no matter what the wood is?


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## punkinn (Feb 4, 2006)

I have another question to add to the mix.   The BF has some anniline powder dye in the woodworking cupboard [}]...  would that work?  I can work in a night-time raid one of these days....  [}][][}]

Nancy


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## vick (Feb 4, 2006)

Angboy - You do not need to stabelize to dye.  Usually I use alcohol based dye after turning and sanding not through a vacume system.

Punkinn - I would think it would be fine.  Try it and let us know.


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## KenV (Feb 4, 2006)

I have not been dying wood, but I have been using the DNA technique for drying green wood blocks.  If DNA soluble dye were used in a similar fashion, especially with a green wood, there would likely be a "twofer".  Water removal and color penetration.  

Blocks 1 inch square by 6 inches long need sit in the DNA for couple of days and then are allowed to air dry.  In a week they are ready to turn and I have been getting only minor checking.  Small blocks 3 1/2 inches round by 2 inches thick that are sopping wet, are DNA treated and dry to turn in 10 days without checks.  

My wife is a fiber person and colors fabric and fibers.  Trick is UV stability -  lots of colors fade in a little sun so look for stable colors like the analine dyes.


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## Russet (Feb 5, 2006)

Well after your helpful insights and suggestions this is what I'm trying. I went to the local thrift store and purchased a used pressure cooker for 2.50 and found some RIT (scarlet) and placed the burl blanks in the dye for a 20 minute boil. I let it cool over night and removed the blanks ( which had sunk to the bottom). After they dry for a few days I'll put them in my vacuum chamber. The color was very vibrant and I'm looking forward to the results. As a side note I found a couple of large cutting boards (1.50 each)at the thrift store, one from Brazil, and one from china, they look promising and should make fine pen blanks.
Duane[8D]


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## wayneis (Feb 5, 2006)

The stain is seperating, you need to get an alchol based dye, mix it with the poly and then stabilize the blanks.

Wayne


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