# Oh give me a home ... where the buffalo roam....



## edstreet

keratin, buffalo horn.  It comes in a range of color, mostly black.  The higher grade material is harder to get and rather uncommon.  They also present more problems to deal with.














This is still an ongoing work in progress.





continued from www.penturners.org/forum/f56/buffalo-horn-117516/


In this thread I will be showing off THREE pens.

Pen 'A' and 'B' was sent as a gift to professionals for their work and dedication in making the panda pen kit possible as well as other kits, i.e. george.

Pen 'C' is kept by myself.  I not only like the look but it will be used as a control piece for a long term experiment.  As many of you are well aware many here claim negative things when it comes to buffalo horn.  Many here also refuse to use it for what I feel is bad exposure and bad experience and failure to adapt skill methodology to suit the material at hand.  Enough about that however.




Pen 'A' was sent to Roy at Classic Nib


















Pen 'B' was sent to Jon David Jones at Signature Pen Supply





















Note here to the length.  This is a short george. It *IS* a Gent Jr.  Here it is next to my delicious beloved, a vintage Parker Duofold lucky curve, circa 1934.






Pen 'C' is my control test unit.



















Many have ask why so short.  The answer is very simple, because I can.  
The next question is often what does it use?  The answer to this is this one is setup to use a rollerball and a fountain pen.






Weight balance ratio is pretty spot on, 20.5g in the cap and lower.

standard length vs shorty length.






Refill cartridges for the fountain pen side.  Photo courtesy Mike and Linda Kennedy from Indy Pen Dance.





Here we see the standard long international cartridge size on the top, below that is the short cartridges and converters available.






Here we see the following:
My Parker Duofold lucky curve on top (in reddish / orange ebonite),
Dayacom little Havana dressed in a Toni Ransfield set,
Berea El Toro (knock off clone of the Havana) also dressed up in a Toni Ransfield set,
Standard length gent Jr (george in black NIKKO japanese ebonite),
The short George in buffalo horn in antique silver with a #6 nib.



Also worth mention 



> OKLAHOMAN said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ed, good luck. Cracking on hair horn, as Buffalo horn is keratin, the same substance as hair and nails will cause them to crack, as with things like snakewood, gator bone and others not all will but they are prone to crack.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OKLAHOMAN said:
> 
> 
> 
> Crack!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


As previously stated I used adaptive techniques to ensure there was *NO* heat generated during production, this includes drilling.  In fact while drilling I would put the drill bit end to my bare hand to ensure no heat was produced.  Never once was I burned.


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## ed4copies

I guess if you make a pen short enough, not much can go wrong with it!

Wonder why none of the major pen companies thought of this??  Because it's ugly???


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## jondavidj

Out of curiosity, why would you openly criticize someone else's work there Ed? How is this for the "good of the group or penturning community?" 

Thank you Ed Street for my gift of one of these today.


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## OKLAHOMAN

Both the El Toro and the  Little Havana are short fountains and both have been good sellers, CSUSA discontinued the Little Havana as well as the Emperor,Lotus,and imperial ,not because they were ugly but because of what they thought they needed to do


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## ed4copies

Two more of EdStreet's emails are answered.


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## ed4copies

OKLAHOMAN said:


> Both the El Toro and the  Little Havana are short fountains and both have been good sellers, CSUSA discontinued the Little Havana as well as the Emperor,Lotus,and imperial ,not because they were ugly but because of what they thought they needed to do


 
How would you know what motivated CSUSA?


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## OKLAHOMAN

So I guess my saying "it's what they thought they had to do" is wrong , I bet that when you do anything to change what, how or if on your business you don't think it's what you wanted, needed or thought it best for you business?


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## ed4copies

OKLAHOMAN said:


> So I guess my saying "it's what they thought they had to do" is wrong , I bet that when you do anything to change what, how or if on your business you don't think it's what you wanted, needed or thought it best for you business?



Just trying to be clear that you have no idea how well those products were selling or what motivated them to stop selling them.  (NOR do I, by the way)


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## OKLAHOMAN

ed4copies said:


> OKLAHOMAN said:
> 
> 
> 
> So I guess my saying "it's what they thought they had to do" is wrong , I bet that when you do anything to change what, how or if on your business you don't think it's what you wanted, needed or thought it best for you business?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just trying to be clear that you have no idea how well those products were selling or what motivated them to stop selling them.  (NOR do I, by the way)
Click to expand...


You are correct sir neither of us know their reasons but I'll bet it wasn't because they were ugly, there are a host of ugly kits being sold the four I mentioned might be seen as ugly by some but not many


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## ed4copies

I will put you down as one "ringing endorsement"==NOT ugly.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion---how many did you buy??  Money speaks louder than words.


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## MesquiteMan

KNOCK IT OFF NOW.  NO MORE OF THIS STUPID BACK AND FORTH.  POSTS WILL START BEING DELETED.  TAKE YOUR GARBAGE ELSEWHERE.  This post is not directed at anyone in particular but if the shoe fits...  This is the SOYP forum, not casual conversation.


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## JimHinze

Ed, don't care what the peanut gallery says, it's a good looking pen, and one heck of a gesture on your part... you're a class act.

To answer the other implied question, I bought over the course of 2 years nearly 30 of the lotus/imperial/emperor/gentleman/statesman line from CSUSA roughly 8-10 years ago before my long hiatus. When I got back into turning, CSUSA was the first place I went and was incredibly disappointed to find they'd dropped all the high end stuff, with the exception of the Statesman and Gentleman line and added PSI to their offerings. 

CSUSA could have been the dominate pen supplier had they continued on their path, keeping the highest quality kits in stock and started designing their own as PSI is now.


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## MesquiteMan

Jim,

They have designed their own and were just copied.  I know this from speaking directly to Darrell Nish, the owner of CSUSA when I was out there the last couple of years teaching classes for them.  He designed a number of them himself and has more stuff in the works.


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## edstreet

Sadly I do not have group with all three of these pen together.


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## vakmere

*Oh give me a home ... where the buffalo roam....* :musical-note:

and I'll show you a dirty house...:musical-note:


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## edstreet

vakmere said:


> *Oh give me a home ... where the buffalo roam....* :musical-note:
> 
> and I'll show you a dirty house...:musical-note:



I used my shop vac attachment to the lathe and my p100 respirator.  There's nothing in the area from the horn however ....  there is loads of purpleheart shavings all over the shop.  Looks like I murdered someone in there.


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## Skie_M

Mmmm ... that reminds me ... I have cow horn shavings all over my living room now ... I need to get my vacuum cleaner out.


Oh yeah .. it surprised the heck outta me ... I didn't know cow horns were black underneath!


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## edstreet

These are short cartridge setups that are usable.  Note the bottom one is indeed a rollerball.


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## ed4copies

Ideal for people who write ten words then want to fill their pen!!


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## Sandsini

I find the horn material very attractive, especially the pieces with the most color variation. I would be interested to know the techniques you have developed to keep it cool (although I would imagine that the drills must be sharp, and copious amounts of water or lubrication must have been used along with a patient, unrushed operator). I keep being drawn to horn but haven't tried it yet due to all the stories I've heard about cracking.

Can you recommend a good vendor for the high quality material you use?

I have to admit that I don't really get the stubby form factor, there are bottoms for every seat I guess, but it does make an interesting conversation piece. Even if some of that conversation is impassioned one way or the other!


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## OKLAHOMAN

Just to set the record straight, I think the "shorty" fountain pen has a place and I was the one that had encouraged Ed to go with the idea. With today's front pockets on men's shirts being somewhat shorter these would fit without pulling on the pocket also fit in a woman's pocketbook and checkbook holder, we also have found a roller ball refill that would work in these. I do think the pump has applications for those that want colors that are not available in cartridges and it will have it's limitations as far as amount of ink it holds, but the squeeze pump will hold as much ink as a normal universal converter that most vendors sell and I do believe that universal converters write more then ten words and universal converters do fit these.  
The one Ed sent me has already been claimed, as has been said by others, well done sir..


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## TonyL

The OP is sharing high quality pictures of his pens/components/tools; I don't understand this hostile banter beyond using the forum for as one's personal school yard to settle old grudges. Isn't that what PMs and hate mail are for (half-kidding)?

Imagine being new to the IAP forum (and not knowing the big hearts and expertise of its members and founders), I would be freighted to post anything and I consider myself relatively thick-skinned. 

Ed S...thanks for the detailed pics.

This is my one and only post on this matter.


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## edstreet

Sandsini said:


> I find the horn material very attractive, especially the pieces with the most color variation. I would be interested to know the techniques you have developed to keep it cool (although I would imagine that the drills must be sharp, and copious amounts of water or lubrication must have been used along with a patient, unrushed operator). I keep being drawn to horn but haven't tried it yet due to all the stories I've heard about cracking.
> 
> Can you recommend a good vendor for the high quality material you use?
> 
> I have to admit that I don't really get the stubby form factor, there are bottoms for every seat I guess, but it does make an interesting conversation piece. Even if some of that conversation is impassioned one way or the other!




Horn can be VERY attractive.

The biggest technique I employ is patients.  Work with the material and not against it.  That means longer than 10 minutes is required.  I know many may have problems spending more than that amount of time on a pen due to ADD/ADHD/OCD or whatever other medical/mental problems they have and that's fine.

When drilling I suggest using fluid of some form to eliminate/reduce/transfer heat.  Even WD-40 makes a good candidate.  Start small and work up to the final size.  For example drill both top and bottom with 6mm or 7mm ish, then drill both with a 31/64" then drill the top with the 1/2" or whatever size bit you need.  Progressing in small stages and cleaning the bit in between works wonders.  I keep a towel lubed up and wipe it down after each pass.  When you move up in drill bit size you are cutting LESS material but you are in fact reaming the hole larger.  The tip of the drill bit is very critical in this procedure.

Glue you want something flexible so if the material does move it can shift with it and not crack.  

As for sources. All I can say is keep looking, shop around and you will find some you like and size right eventually.  Many of the knife outlet shops stock exotic items like this to and that is a very good source to use.


As for the short/stubby, some have said they dont like it, others said they do.  That is personal preference.


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## Sandsini

Thank you Ed,
I hadn't thought of the flexible glue, but that makes a great deal of sense. I appreciate you laying out the procedure, you did a fabulous job on the pens.

Cheers,


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## edstreet

It has became my belief that blanks should be flexible.  All to often we use brittle substances and they are easy fractured, cracked and damaged by simple drops and the like.  The CA finish that I use I can put in my nova chuck after it's done, clamp it down and it will not fracture but mold to the jaws under pressure.

If you have reactive materials or flexible then your glue joint should also employ flexible as well.


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## Rockytime

OKLAHOMAN said:


> Just to set the record straight, I think the "shorty" fountain pen has a place and I was the one that had encouraged Ed to go with the idea. With today's front pockets on men's shirts being somewhat shorter these would fit without pulling on the pocket also fit in a woman's pocketbook and checkbook holder, we also have found a roller ball refill that would work in these. (SNIP)
> 
> I always wear t-shirts with pockets. Very few of these handmade pens work well for me so I make shorter slimlines for carry.


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## Sappheiros

I am enchanted with that buffalo horn.  Great finish and pairing with the kit.  Great job!


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## Carl Fisher

The horn looks great Ed.

The big distinction on these short pens is that they are designed to be written with while posted. A nice compact pen when closed and then a full size pen when posted actually has a strong desirability in the market.  Think Kaweco Sport and Liliput, Pilot Petite, and several others.

I personally find the full length version of these Jr. style pens to be much too top heavy if you try to write with them posted like that and always end up just placing the cap to the side during writing.

My only real criticism is that the clip looks too large in this particular set of pens but otherwise I like 'em.


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## southernclay

Ed, I wish you would make more posts like this, you've got a ton of talent and smarts. I think a lot of your post attempt to push people to expand their limits and thought process which is great but doesn't always come across that way. 

Anyway, cool post and pen, a little too short for me but not by much. But really cool to see the limits that can be pushed. There was a Chicago rollerball by CSUSA, I only made one, my wife broke it in about 2 seconds when she pulled the cap off very easily :biggrin: Other than not being top quality (I believe it was from the apprentice line) it was a cool small rollerball. Anyway epoxied it back in and carried it around for a while and it was nice. Cool to see someone alter an existing kit to show another option at a higher quality result.


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## Hexpilot

*Just my opinion*

This is my first post on the forum.  My son and I just started turning pens together (last weekend) so I am very new.  I just wanted to say that the horn pen is really nice and i would love to have the talent this gentleman has.   The reason for my post is to say I hope most people are not like ed4copies.  I find him rude, disrespectful and certainly not an inviting personality.


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## vakmere

Buffalo horn vs deer antler. I read about drilling BH, understood. What are the main differences/properties if any turning and finishing each?


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## Skie_M

I haven't had the opportunity to get a hold of buffalo or water buffalo horn yet...

I just got my grubby mitts on some cow horn, and I understand that they are somewhat similar, being modified hairs growing together as one...

Antler is bone ... it's fairly dense stuff, can have a "pith" or a hollow inside where the marrow was, depending on the species.  It comes off as little chips and nearly ribbons, when you have it rounded.  When working it, you can sometimes smell the marrow and burning bone.  Some people find the smell unpleasant.  It polishes extremely well, up to a mirror shine.  You want to seal the bone, as it will absorb moisture and oils and stain ... it will also yellow over time unless properly sealed.

Horn is, as I mentioned already, modified hairs.  It turns like .... well, like fingernails.  It is condensed keratin.  When rounded, it will come off in stringy ribbons.  The color is variegated, like the coloration of the animal's fur, but mostly black and browns, with possibly some tan streaks.  When working it, you can smell burning hair or fingernails.  Pretty much everybody finds this smell horrible.  It finishes very nicely, with a fine glossy surface, but it will eat your sandpaper like nothing you've ever seen.  It will also dull your tools much more than antler will.  You will want to seal the horn, just like the antler, to keep moisture and oils out, as this material can stain, swell, and crack or just fall apart with age.


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## OKLAHOMAN

Hexpilot said:


> This is my first post on the forum.  My son and I just started turning pens together (last weekend) so I am very new.  I just wanted to say that the horn pen is really nice and i would love to have the talent this gentleman has.   The reason for my post is to say I hope most people are not like ed4copies.  I find him rude, disrespectful and certainly not an inviting personality.



Dwayne, first let me say that turning with your son will give both many hours of enjoyment. And the pen that Ed Street made is definitely something to aspire to.
Now to your comment on ed4copies, he and I for years have been competitors and at times non to friendly. But to be honest this was completely out of character for him and there is a back story if you would have been around here longer. Don't judge the IAP or even ed4copies from this one thread. 
And before I forget welcome to the IAP.


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## brownsfn2

True what Roy says here.  

When I was little I would poke my brother in the arm.  I realized one poke would not get me the reaction I wanted.  So I learned that making several light pokes over a long period of time caused a huge explosion.  If Mom and Dad confronted me I would say "All I did was poke him lightly once." 

So basically although the party that does the poking wants to look innocent and Ed4copies (Ed Brown) may have blown up at him.  The poking has been carrying on for quite some time.  

What Roy says is true.  Ed Brown really is a good guy and will go out of is way to assist with any issues.  All vendors here do that. They are great people.


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## NittanyLion

Ed,

I think the pen is great....very creative with the "shorty"!  It's nice to see innovation and something unique.

  The rest of the stuff that I've seen more and more of on here with bickering and negative comments/attack is the primary reason I enjoy visiting the various Facebook sites for pen turners.  It's on Facebook occasionally, but really seems to be escalating here.

Hopefully we can move past this stuff here and try to have conversations as if the person was sitting across from us as we comment.  Most everyone here are great folks....but for some reason this forum causes people to forget how important simple kindness and respect is.

Keep up the great work....look forward to more.


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## maxwell_smart007

Please avoid making the problem worse by referencing any of the stuff that happened on the sidelines...

Focus on the pen, please!  

Andrew
assistant moderator


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## edstreet

southernclay said:


> Ed, I wish you would make more posts like this, you've got a ton of talent and smarts. I think a lot of your post attempt to push people to expand their limits and thought process which is great but doesn't always come across that way.
> 
> Anyway, cool post and pen, a little too short for me but not by much. But really cool to see the limits that can be pushed. There was a Chicago rollerball by CSUSA, I only made one, my wife broke it in about 2 seconds when she pulled the cap off very easily :biggrin: Other than not being top quality (I believe it was from the apprentice line) it was a cool small rollerball. Anyway epoxied it back in and carried it around for a while and it was nice. Cool to see someone alter an existing kit to show another option at a higher quality result.



There can be more post like this as I have been holding back greatly.  I have passed over a good number of post and the reason this one was posted was because these items were given as gifts to two people who are members here.

There are a great number of 'shorty' pen kits out there.  I believe PSI has a credit card pen, a purse pen, the mini bolt action just to name a few.




Carl Fisher said:


> The horn looks great Ed.
> 
> The big distinction on these short pens is that they are designed to be written with while posted. A nice compact pen when closed and then a full size pen when posted actually has a strong desirability in the market.  Think Kaweco Sport and Liliput, Pilot Petite, and several others.
> 
> I personally find the full length version of these Jr. style pens to be much too top heavy if you try to write with them posted like that and always end up just placing the cap to the side during writing.
> 
> My only real criticism is that the clip looks too large in this particular set of pens but otherwise I like 'em.



I to find the full length gent series a bit on the long side.  Clearly the design dictates specific things in mind.  The Jitterbug is also another 'shorty', in fact if you grab many commercial pens and compare them with kits you will find the kits are often kludgy, bulky, heavy and odd.  That is going to change.

Also thanks for pointing out the clip.  I have always said less than glowing feedback is always welcome and should be encouraged.  As you may have seen Roy mentioned "prototype", so yes it is possible to make a change to the clip 



Hexpilot said:


> This is my first post on the forum.  My son and I just started turning pens together (last weekend) so I am very new.  I just wanted to say that the horn pen is really nice and i would love to have the talent this gentleman has.   The reason for my post is to say I hope most people are not like ed4copies.  I find him rude, disrespectful and certainly not an inviting personality.



Please ignore any thing you see that you feel is rude, disrespectful and inviting.  That also goes for anything that comes from me as well.  In fact I encourage everyone to reach out and ask more questions about what is going on.  Misunderstandings is quite rampant online and there is a high degree of odd's you may have misunderstood the intentions.  So I encourage everyone to post and ask questions, do more discovery.  After all as one of the moderators here states "take the bait" is done with each and every post and it is up to the poster to steer things in a helpful direction.




brownsfn2 said:


> True what Roy says here.
> 
> When I was little I would poke my brother in the arm.  I realized one poke would not get me the reaction I wanted.  So I learned that making several light pokes over a long period of time caused a huge explosion.  If Mom and Dad confronted me I would say "All I did was poke him lightly once."
> 
> So basically although the party that does the poking wants to look innocent and Ed4copies (Ed Brown) may have blown up at him.  The poking has been carrying on for quite some time.
> 
> What Roy says is true.  Ed Brown really is a good guy and will go out of is way to assist with any issues.  All vendors here do that. They are great people.





If you look you will find all parties involved have been poked very hard for a very long time now.


Reality is not black and white, there are many many shades of grey.  Also there is no reason to take sides, there is nothing any of the sides can do to harm you, unless you allow them to.  Labeling one person as 'good' and one as 'bad' is stereotyping and greatly influenced by group pressure.  I urge you above everyone else to look at all sides at play.  Just because you understand the other side does not mean you agree with the other side.

Also I have to ask if your mom/dad or brother worked with buffalo horn any at all.


Which brings up a very valid issue raised. .....



vakmere said:


> Buffalo horn vs deer antler. I read about drilling BH, understood. What are the main differences/properties if any turning and finishing each?




In the opening post I linked to another thread, old thread mind you on the start of this project.  I did not know at that time where these would be going to but after the post was made I had a very good idea.

Also please take note of the health hazard when working either material.

When turning buffalo horn it honestly seems to be a cross between ebonite and palm.  Palm wood you have strands like in buffalo (buffalo is finer) ebonite you have small grain but ebonite has a very close feel.

buffalo also resembles ebonite in it's unfinished state.





Shavings on an earlier test I did some time back. 





Note the reamed shavings from going in increments.


Here is a knife block that I have.





Note the union of teh silver and honey strands and the seemingly crack but some of those are not cracks but in fact silver strands under the surface that is rather translucent.


this is an EDC that I made a good number of years back.  To date it has yet to crack.






This is end grain on elk antler, called PITH.





Elk antler handle, Elk skin sheath, cow horn powder horn.


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## slincoln

Great pen and implementation.


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## tbroye

Just got back in from shop I have two pieces of Buffalo horn.  Love the look of the George in Antique Silver.  Will have to give it a try.  I use water to keep it cool while drilling and go real slow  The smell gets me.  I have done a couple of other Buffalo horn and never had trouble, now watch all hell will break loose on the next on.


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## Hubert H

Ed,  I really like the buffalo horn and the quality work you did with it.  Not to sure about the short pen - I appreciate the pictures (very clear) and have to say that the more I look at them the more I'm inclined to try a short pen.


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## Smitty37

I'm a  little surprised that you didn't get some flack about using buffalo horn.  Given the responses awhile back about Ivory,  I think this is a rare case where I agree with you - shorter pens are OK


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## edstreet

hubert said:


> Ed,  I really like the buffalo horn and the quality work you did with it.  Not to sure about the short pen - I appreciate the pictures (very clear) and have to say that the more I look at them the more I'm inclined to try a short pen.



As is said in engineering.  Try it once, if it's not ok then change it till it is ok.   There is no shame in trying something new.

Thanks for your comment.



Smitty37 said:


> I'm a  little surprised that you didn't get some flack about using buffalo horn.  Given the responses awhile back about Ivory,  I think this is a rare case where I agree with you - shorter pens are OK




Buffalo horn is found in many (all?) pet shops as chew toys for dogs.

Same with antler and other products.  Sorry no ivory found there other than by color.

There are at least 130 million domestic water buffalo in existant and more humans depend upon them than any other domestic animal (source wiki )  Buffalo is also used in the food trade with 72 million tones of milk and 3 million tons of meat annually to the world food supply.

Which means products other than meat is used and not discarded, i.e. leather, hooves, horn.



> Meat and skin products
> 
> Water buffalo meat, sometimes called "carabeef", is often passed off as beef in certain regions, and is also a major source of export revenue for India. In many Asian regions, buffalo meat is less preferred due to its toughness; however, recipes have evolved (rendang, for example) where the slow cooking process and spices not only make the meat palatable, but also preserve it, an important factor in hot climates where refrigeration is not always available.
> 
> Their hides provide tough and useful leather, often used for shoes.
> Bone and horn products
> 
> The bones and horns are often made into jewellery, especially earrings. Horns are used for the embouchure of musical instruments, such as ney and kaval.


source wiki


This is why buffalo horn is more accepted than ivory is.  It is nothing alike except that both happen to be exotic materials.

From this, it is our job as craftsman to use these materials wisely.


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## Smitty37

edstreet said:


> hubert said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ed,  I really like the buffalo horn and the quality work you did with it.  Not to sure about the short pen - I appreciate the pictures (very clear) and have to say that the more I look at them the more I'm inclined to try a short pen.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As is said in engineering.  Try it once, if it's not ok then change it till it is ok.   There is no shame in trying something new.
> 
> Thanks for your comment.
> 
> 
> 
> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm a  little surprised that you didn't get some flack about using buffalo horn.  Given the responses awhile back about Ivory,  I think this is a rare case where I agree with you - shorter pens are OK
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Buffalo horn is found in many (all?) pet shops as chew toys for dogs.
> 
> Same with antler and other products.  Sorry no ivory found there other than by color.
> 
> There are at least 130 million domestic water buffalo in existant and more humans depend upon them than any other domestic animal (source wiki )  Buffalo is also used in the food trade with 72 million tones of milk and 3 million tons of meat annually to the world food supply.
> 
> Which means products other than meat is used and not discarded, i.e. leather, hooves, horn.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Meat and skin products
> 
> Water buffalo meat, sometimes called "carabeef", is often passed off as beef in certain regions, and is also a major source of export revenue for India. In many Asian regions, buffalo meat is less preferred due to its toughness; however, recipes have evolved (rendang, for example) where the slow cooking process and spices not only make the meat palatable, but also preserve it, an important factor in hot climates where refrigeration is not always available.
> 
> Their hides provide tough and useful leather, often used for shoes.
> Bone and horn products
> 
> The bones and horns are often made into jewellery, especially earrings. Horns are used for the embouchure of musical instruments, such as ney and kaval.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> source wiki
> 
> 
> This is why buffalo horn is more accepted than ivory is.  It is nothing alike except that both happen to be exotic materials.
> 
> From this, it is our job as craftsman to use these materials wisely.
Click to expand...

I understand all that. Vegans might not. I read the same articles when a supplier in Asia offered to provide buffalo horn blanks if I would import them.  Interestingly they were emphasizing that the horn's they used were guaranteed to be from animals killed legally so I thought poaching might be a problem with them also.  I guess it is with the wild water buffalo.


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## maxwell_smart007

Water buffalo is a domesticated animal that is essentially raised like cattle in many parts of the world for meat and milk - so when it's harvested for meat, or when it dies, they can harvest the horn.


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## Smitty37

maxwell_smart007 said:


> Water buffalo is a domesticated animal that is essentially raised like cattle in many parts of the world for meat and milk - so when it's harvested for meat, or when it dies, they can harvest the horn.


True but it is also a wild animal (slightly different species) found in Asia and declining in numbers....also the term water buffalo is often applied to the wild Cape Buffalo in South Africa.  There are also feral herds of water buffalo in quite a few countries that are not raised for domestic purposes but like mustangs in parts of the USA are wild animals.


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## NCwoodworker1

*bad form*

...


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## NCwoodworker1

*bad form*

ed4copies,

 I have to agree with jondavidj. I think to openly criticize another person's work is in bad taste. If you feel the need to critique their work in a positive way...ie offer constructive advice, it could and should be done in PM's ... not in the open forum.

 Furthermore, the thinly veiled hostility between 2 different venders (ed4copies and the oklahoman) is also best kept out of the open forum. 

 We can all have different opinions of what is pretty or ugly, and neither of you should be in such a hurry to prove that you opinion is wrong.


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## edstreet

I have located a 3rd party source that has some distinct setup to dealing with horn and how to work with horn.

Using and working with Horn - Working Horn


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## edstreet

vakmere said:


> Buffalo horn vs deer antler. I read about drilling BH, understood. What are the main differences/properties if any turning and finishing each?



This should help you greatly.

Using and working with Horn - Definitions of Horn.


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## TurtleTom

The one I like is the classic Parker Duofold, not exactly my color, but who cares.


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## edstreet

TurtleTom said:


> The one I like is the classic Parker Duofold, not exactly my color, but who cares.



Ahhh yes, the good old Parker Duofold.  Love the color myself however the yellow is good and later models had other colors going on once they switched to plastics.  The one pictured is ebonite.


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## edstreet

So.   Shorty George not only takes a mini rollerball but a ball point refill as well, how cool is that.  So roller, fountain and ball point in one gent Jr series frame.  






An update on the buffalo pens. No problems to date. Nor am I expecting any.


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## BKelley

I notice no one has mentioned Sambar antler fron India.  I have used sambar stag off and on for about 40 years.  It is far superior to white tail antler or any other deer type antler, as it has very little pith.  It is hard and takes a beautiful polish.  Down side is it is scarce, I believe the Indian government controls the export.  

Ben


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## edstreet

Sambar is also a good choice to use and plenty of it available.  

Also status update on these 3 pens.  So far there has been no reported problems with the three pens in this post.  All of them are holding up very good and the 1 year mark is coming up in a few days.


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## farmer

Cool thread, educational, thanks Ed.


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