# PITH Divider?



## RAdams (Jul 17, 2010)

I was just reading one of the invite threads for the pith, and it said that level 1 is for beginners, and lower intermediate,, Then level two is for upper intermediate and advanced. My question is this..

For those of us stuck somewhere in the middle, what is considered a lower versus upper intermediate? Obviously the "Advanced" category would only have a few members, but i think there are lots of us in between. Not noobs by any means, but we haven't learned how to make a pen look like an airplane, or make a pen from some wire and a bolt. 

thanks for any clarification!


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## bitshird (Jul 17, 2010)

RAdams said:


> Not noobs by any means, but we haven't learned how to make a pen look like an airplane, or make a pen from some wire and a bolt.
> 
> thanks for any clarification!



Ron, that stuff is easy, try making a plane look like a pen, or even harder try and make a bic look like some wire and a bolt!!!!


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## Hucifer (Jul 17, 2010)

I'm with Ron on this one... I need some sort gauge as to where to put myself.


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## VampMN (Jul 17, 2010)

The way I understand it is, you need to decide what you would feel okay trading your pen for. Me, there is no way I would feel okay trading for most of the pens I see on this website, so I would choose group one. If I had been making pens for a while, and could make a pen that a collector would be happy to have, I'd pick the second group, whether is looked like an airplane or not. YMMV


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## phillywood (Jul 17, 2010)

Ron, for me I don't even fit in any of those categories. :tongue::tongue::tongue: Since I have to get the lathe first then turn. I'd be happy if someone sent me a pen so I can sign the check for buying a lathe first.  Then I put myself in the group two. This is why. The guy who is a pro knows how to disassemble my pen and make it better or put it on another blank and reuse it or fine tune it, but if I get his pen then I have something to inspire me. I think that's the way it should be. Although I would not be paired with some one here that thinks I can not be spoon-fed the pen turning. So I take someone else that don't mind to inspire me. That's my 2 dimes in this matter(sorry ran out of the cents):tongue::biggrin:


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## mbroberg (Jul 17, 2010)

RAdams said:


> I was just reading one of the invite threads for the pith, and it said that level 1 is for beginners, and lower intermediate,, Then level two is for upper intermediate and advanced. My question is this..
> 
> For those of us stuck somewhere in the middle, what is considered a lower versus upper intermediate? Obviously the "Advanced" category would only have a few members, but i think there are lots of us in between. Not noobs by any means, but we haven't learned how to make a pen look like an airplane, or make a pen from some wire and a bolt.
> 
> thanks for any clarification!





Hucifer said:


> I'm with Ron on this one... I need some sort gauge as to where to put myself.[/quote
> 
> The decision as to what is lower intermediate and what is upper intermediate is subjective, and it is a decision that each participant will have to make for them self.  Keep in mind that this is not a competition, it's a swap.  As of right now no one knows who they are going to be paired with or what the theme of the swap is.  The only thing we really do know is our own pen making abilities.  Far be it from me to start saying person X is in group 1 and person Y is in group 2.  Could you imagine the hurt feelings or anxiety that would cause?   Everyone should just place themselves in whatever group they feel comfortable with.
> 
> ...


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## phillywood (Jul 17, 2010)

Mike, I am allowed to receive , but what the heck you suggest I should give? Can I give a manly hug or an Italian type kiss, instead? Well we middle eastern don't have any problems with kissing other guys on the cheek but I know unless you are Italian here some would say wowowowowwowo,wach ya doin buddy?. :tongue::biggrin: You Know the Tony Soprano type kiss. :glasses-nerdy:


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## bitshird (Jul 17, 2010)

Hucifer said:


> I'm with Ron on this one... I need some sort gauge as to where to put myself.


Hugh, I looked at your photos and your work is very nice, I'm not sure what you use for a finish, from what I saw on one of your Ligeros, you make a good pen, looked to be fit well, finish was good, so what else would a person want. I make mostly Fountain pen, and use some higher end kits, , but I wouldn't mind being paired with you, I always select Group 1 for these, one pen I carry every day is a ballpoint for checks and stuff that my fountain pen isn't going to press through the carbons, came from one of our swaps. So to me, it's not so much that I get a pen that's worth a couple hundred bucks, it's that I get a pen that some one took the time to make in exchange for one of mine. 



VampMN said:


> The way I understand it is, you need to decide what you would feel okay trading your pen for. Me, there is no way I would feel okay trading for most of the pens I see on this website, so I would choose group one. If I had been making pens for a while, and could make a pen that a collector would be happy to have, I'd pick the second group, whether is looked like an airplane or not. YMMV



Margaret, To my way of thinking there is an opportunity to learn in one of these exchanges, I've only been through three on this site and one on an Australian site, last time if I remember right several of the best pen makers and a couple of excellent pen turners entered in the beginners or level 1 group. They did this so someone who hadn't been turning for ever and had possibly only had a limited experience could own one of their pens. It's kind of a pay it forward for some folks.



phillywood said:


> ron, for me I don't even fit inany of those category. :tongue::tongue::tongue:. since I have to gt the lathe first then turn. I'd be happy if someone sent me a pen so i cansign the check for buying a lathe first.  Then I pust myslef in the group two, this why. the guy who is pro knows how to dissasemble my pen and make it better or put it on another blank. and reuse it or fine tune it, but if I get his pen then I have something to inspire me. I think that's the way it should be. Although I would not be paired with Some one here that thinks I can not be spoonfed the penturning. So I take soemone else that don't mind to inspire me. That's my 2 dimes in this matter(sorry ran out of the cents):tongue::biggrin:



Phillip, 
I hope I get paired with you. I waited nearly 5 months for my Australian pen swap to get to me and it was worth the wait. I'd sure like to see you get your lathe and maybe turn one of the blanks I sent you. As long as you tried your best to make a nice pen, it could just be a plain slim line as long as you put your best effort in it, I'd put it right in with my collection of special pens, the ones that I've got from swaps and trades and gifted pen blanks.



RAdams said:


> I was just reading one of the invite threads for the pith, and it said that level 1 is for beginners, and lower intermediate,, Then level two is for upper intermediate and advanced. My question is this..
> 
> For those of us stuck somewhere in the middle, what is considered a lower versus upper intermediate? Obviously the "Advanced" category would only have a few members, but i think there are lots of us in between. Not noobs by any means, but we haven't learned how to make a pen look like an airplane, or make a pen from some wire and a bolt.
> 
> thanks for any clarification!


Ron,
Ask Steven "skiprat"Jackson why he and the Greeneyedblackcat both entered the last one in the low tier. Man it ain't or shouldn't be about the quality or price of the kit, or the skill of the turner or maker, it should be about giving the best you can do for the best someone else can do, do you always tell Santa  (or Shaggy 2 dope)  what to give you for Christmas or (the gathering) ?? Naw I always figure I'm just a beginner any way. so I just am glad to get a pen I didn't make or buy at some ungodly over priced art show, [size=-4] oh crap I sell at those uh wonderful moderately priced venues[/size] 

I'd even consider doing a swap with aniemafan except he'd be using my kits and probably do it on the clock!!


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## mbroberg (Jul 17, 2010)

Nothing personal Phillip, but I'll pass on the hug and kiss.  :redface:Since PITH is a pen swap, what you need to swap is a pen.


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## soligen (Jul 17, 2010)

Personally, I would perfer no categories and have it be totally random. I tend to angst over self evaluation, and I am my own worst critic X 2. It would be more fun for me if it was one large grp and be totally random.

Just one pen turner's opinion.

PS. I wasn't going to participate due to the angst of self placement, but I am reconsidering.


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## mredburn (Jul 17, 2010)

One of the best thing about the PITH is once you enter *YOU* will push yourself to make your best pen ever. Why because you wont want to disapoint your partner.  Last year my Pith pen was the first pen I had made in 9-10 years. This year Ive made a whopping 6 pens and I still dont know if Im a group 1 or 2 but hey Ill figure it out someday.


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## mredburn (Jul 17, 2010)

soligen said:


> Personally, I would perfer no categories and have it be totally random. I tend to angst over self evaluation, and I am my own worst critic X 2. It would be more fun for me if it was one large grp and be totally random.
> 
> Just one pen turner's opinion.
> 
> PS. I wasn't going to participate due to the angst of self placement, but I am reconsidering.


 

Dennis, Go  Group 1 -largest group, most diversified, inc alot of group 2 whom put themselves in group 1. Now you can relax and make a pen.


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## aggromere (Jul 17, 2010)

I can't make pens for crap that is why I want to trade with one the many fantastic pen turners on this site.


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## mbroberg (Jul 17, 2010)

soligen said:


> Personally, I would perfer no categories and have it be totally random. I tend to angst over self evaluation, and I am my own worst critic X 2. It would be more fun for me if it was one large grp and be totally random.
> 
> Just one pen turner's opinion.
> 
> ...



I hope you participate.  I toyed with the idea of just one big group but decided that since this was my first year organizing the PITH I would leave things pretty much the way they were last year.


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## seamus7227 (Jul 17, 2010)

I'm actually looking forward to the PITH!! As soon as I figure out what i'm doing on the Casing contest!


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## hunter-27 (Jul 17, 2010)

mbroberg said:


> I hope you participate. I toyed with the idea of just one big group but decided that since this was my first year organizing the PITH I would leave things pretty much the way they were last year.


Do keep in mind that simple minded guy who did the PITH last year was also doing his first PITH.


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## RyanNJ (Jul 17, 2010)

when does this start?


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## mbroberg (Jul 17, 2010)

seamus7227 said:


> I'm actually looking forward to the PITH!! As soon as I figure out what i'm doing on the Casing contest!



 You better hurry!!  The casing challange ends around Noon on the 21st. 



RyanNJ said:


> when does this start?



:biggrin: Sign ups will begin in the afternoon or evening of the 21st. :biggrin:


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## mredburn (Jul 17, 2010)

So this is not the "sign up" thread and it isnt the 'Im not signing up yet" thread, is it the "Mike Broberg" Im teasing you with a not yet but almost signing up thread?


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## mbroberg (Jul 17, 2010)

None of the above.  Actually, this is a Ron Adams, "I have a question thread" that sorta wandered off topic.:befuddled:


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## mredburn (Jul 17, 2010)

:biggrin:I believe all of Rons thread run off topic.:biggrin:


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## ldb2000 (Jul 18, 2010)

Guys , the PITH isn't about what group you are in or what pen you will get , it's about sending the best pen you can make . Get the fit and finish as good as you can , show that you tried your hardest and the person who recieves your pen will be happy . Just join in and do your best .


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## phillywood (Jul 18, 2010)

"Phillip, 
I hope I get paired with you. I waited nearly 5 months for my Australian pen swap to get to me and it was worth the wait. I'd sure like to see you get your lathe and maybe turn one of the blanks I sent you. As long as you tried your best to make a nice pen, it could just be a plain slim line as long as you put your best effort in it, I'd put it right in with my collection of special pens, the ones that I've got from swaps and trades and gifted pen blanks."

Ken, you are a gracious gentleman and a scholar at that. i appreciate what you did for me and heck I am waiting 'til I can get a release from the Dr. so I can lift and bend, and the things that takes place around the shop. I am with you 100%. This gesture is for the sake of giving not judging one's work. this is a nicest thing two totally strange people can do from far away in the name of giving. For me I have been blessed by the friendship of many fine people here that I didn't get that kind of friendship even form my next door neighbors. This forum is something else in its own merit. No, trash thoughts and no ill talk and intentions. A plain and Pure honest the God site that people from all around the world can join and have a pure fun without worrying. I appreciate the chance even given to me to be part of this group.
Above I was just joking to have some fun, since I know Ron didn't really mean to start anything negative. I'll be honored whomever I get paired with to exchange pen with and I hope I'd be ready to by the time this get on the way. I know it's the spirit of giving and cherishing the thought that one puts into making something for you that counts. 
 To add to this fun I have been blessed by so many members' generosity here that sent me some very nice looking blanks that I can't even wait to turn them. Some are so nice that I am dreaming at least to make something nice out of them for the sake of friendship they have extended to me and send it to them as thank you for sharing the fun.


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## phillywood (Jul 18, 2010)

ldb2000 said:


> Guys , the PITH isn't about what group you are in or what pen you will get , it's about sending the best pen you can make . Get the fit and finish as good as you can , show that you tried your hardest and the person who recieves your pen will be happy . Just join in and do your best .


 
Butch are you sure you won't kick my butt if I screw up with all the advise you have given me. Or are you going to have your cat kick my butt? you know I just had my op?:crying::tongue::biggrin: Now I don't even have any excuses to screw up huh?


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## ldb2000 (Jul 18, 2010)

Don't worry Phil . I got something special planned for you so your covered .


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## RAdams (Jul 18, 2010)

Being that i missed the pith totally last year, and this will be my first PITH entry, I had already planned on joining group 1, but was just curious if there was some sort of written criteria you had to meet for group two... high end kit, high end blank, certain amount of custom work... that sort of thing. 

I have to admit, I hope to get traded to a superstar. Not so much to add one of their pens to my personal collection as to put one of my pens in their hands. I want to be critiqued by the best so i can use the feedback. Allthough,,, It would be super sweet to add a wicked pen to my meager little private collection. thanks for all teh feedback. I am pretty excited to get going on something cool for this trade!


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## hunter-27 (Jul 18, 2010)

RAdams said:


> Being that i missed the pith totally last year, and this will be my first PITH entry, I had already planned on joining group 1, but was just curious if there was some sort of written criteria you had to meet for group two... high end kit, high end blank, certain amount of custom work... that sort of thing.
> 
> I have to admit, I hope to get traded to a superstar. Not so much to add one of their pens to my personal collection as to put one of my pens in their hands. I want to be critiqued by the best so i can use the feedback. Allthough,,, It would be super sweet to add a wicked pen to my meager little private collection. thanks for all teh feedback. I am pretty excited to get going on something cool for this trade!


 Well my friend, I think I qualify to be in group 1/2, so I suppose I will have to round up and give it a go, that is IF Mike ever cuts us loose to not, not sign up.:wink:


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## bitshird (Jul 18, 2010)

soligen said:


> Personally, I would perfer no categories and have it be totally random. I tend to angst over self evaluation, and I am my own worst critic X 2. It would be more fun for me if it was one large grp and be totally random.
> 
> Just one pen turner's opinion.
> 
> PS. I wasn't going to participate due to the angst of self placement, but I am reconsidering.



Dennis, I agree with you, I really don't care who I swap with and I'm not very particular about the kit, I just want to do the best I can on what ever pen I choose to do for the person I'm paired with, and vise versa. It shouldn't be an elitist thing it's supposed to be a friend you haven't met yet sort of thing, on the Aussie swap I did a full size TI Gent Fountain pen in some burl and got a cool Stainless Rollerball scratch made pen from my partner , I flipped out when I saw it, I've got some from exchanges here that I love.
Don't let the Angst stop you from participating in the PITH, it's all good, and it's fun.


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## skiprat (Jul 18, 2010)

I've never been a fan of multi level swaps either, there is something just not right about it. Maybe elitist?? If you believe your pen deserves something special in return then do a private swap. 
It's called PITH - singular, not PITH*S.* There should only be one 'hat':wink:


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## Seer (Jul 18, 2010)

If we are all together in a room and we pass around the hat full of pens do we divide it into 2 hats before hand and into 2 groups probably not so I feel maybe the same should be done here?  In my first PITH I had Wolftat as my partner and recieved a very gorgeous Herringbone 360 Sierra and I think I sent him a DIW Sierra and I can say with all honesty that was the best pen I had done to date and I had only been turning a few months.  The pen Neil sent me for outdid anything I could do then and alot since.  But I can tell you one thing his work inspired me to try different things as I felt more comfortable.  So in my opinion I cherish anything sent to me in a drawing like this and I hope my recipient would do the same as no one is perfect and we all try our best imho.
Jerry


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## hunter-27 (Jul 18, 2010)

skiprat said:


> I've never been a fan of multi level swaps either, there is something just not right about it. Maybe elitist?? If you believe your pen deserves something special in return then do a private swap.
> It's called PITH - singular, not PITH*S.* There should only be one 'hat':wink:


 As I did last year, and I think Mike kept it so for the same reason, I split in groups not so much for the "elitists" but by many requests from the other end of the spectrum.  Often times the "newbie" or just the "lesser experienced" folks are the ones the most upset when they receive a "masterpiece", when all they sent was a "decent" attempt.  I have been there done that.  I did an swap once in which I sent the best pen (slimline) I had ever done at the time.  In return I was sent a knockout Gent RB which was so heavily modified I hate to even refer to it as a "kit pen".  I know for a fact the partner I had was thrilled with what I sent(she is an overall top notch person in general).  That being said I felt kind of lousy for some time as I thought(well KNEW) she got "ripped off"  My point is simply don't look at it from the veiw of wanting to get something better than you sent or anything like that, but for those(like me)who just make "good" stuff, and don't want the feeling that they came out a little "too good" on the deal.  Even though I might swap with a "Master" and they would never even think of feeling they got "jipped".  I personally would hate that I KNOW they did.  Don't jump on the need one hat only bandwagon without stepping back and looking at it from a different perspective.  As always this is just my view, it is worth what you paid to read it.

Landon

Landon


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## mbroberg (Jul 18, 2010)

Does anyone think it is possible that some of our newer members might be intimidated by the thought of being paired with one of the better pen makers on the board.  I want to make sure everyone feels comfortable enough to participate.  There are three days left until sign-ups begin.  Should I (try to figure out) how to post a poll on the topic?  Is there anyone out there who would not sign up out of fear that you would be paired with someone with much more experience than you?


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## Crickett (Jul 18, 2010)

mbroberg said:


> Is there anyone out there who would not sign up out of fear that you would be paired with someone with much more experience than you?



I would love to take on the challenge but I would never put myself in "that" group.  I received a pen from a member that blew me away at the time but it also made me a better turner and finisher.


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## mbroberg (Jul 18, 2010)

skiprat said:


> I've never been a fan of multi level swaps either, there is something just not right about it. Maybe elitist?? If you believe your pen deserves something special in return then do a private swap.
> It's called PITH - singular, not PITH*S.* There should only be one 'hat':wink:



Skip, I think for most it is not a case of thinking their pen deserves something special in return, I think it is more a fear of disappointing one's partner.  That fear, in most cases, is probably not valid, but perception is reality.  That fear is real to some and I don't want to have anyone not participate because of it.


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## Displaced Canadian (Jul 18, 2010)

Not a simple question. Both points of view have merit. It would be sad if someone didn't enter because they thought their work wasn't good enough. To me the PITH isn't about getting a pen, it is about you making your best and giving it to another person. Getting a pen is just a great perk. Personally I think I'm in the lower 1/2 of group 2 but I will enter group 1 because group 1 is more of a wild card.


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## skiprat (Jul 18, 2010)

mbroberg said:


> Skip, I think for most it is not a case of thinking their pen deserves something special in return, I think it is more a fear of disappointing one's partner. That fear, in most cases, is probably not valid, but perception is reality. That fear is real to some and I don't want to have anyone not participate because of it.


 
Mike, if this is the case, then why would someone request to be put in group 2?  I for one would be very happy to get a nicely made slim even if I sent something fancy. If folks are reluctant to join the swap because of what you said then they only need to clarify with their partner before they start making a pen. If folks are so embarrased about their work, then maybe they should wait till next year when they are more confident.

Landon, I have NEVER jumped on a 'bandwagon' in my life. In fact, I resent the insinuation.  I bang my own drum.


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## ESwindell (Jul 18, 2010)

I personally would LOVE to be paired with one of the people on here that most consider "masters", not because that I think that my work is that good, but because I love to look at their work and then attempt to reverse engineer it and then possibly use some of the information to further my attempts or come up with possible original creations of my own.  That said, if I were paired with someone who is on par with me then I would hope that we both would be able to glean information from each others attempts.  If I were paired with some one just starting out then I would hope that they would use my creation as a spring board to then further their attempts and knowledge.  Regardless which type of person I end up being paired with as long as they have put the time and effort into their creation and it is the best that they can do at this point in time then I will be satisfied.
God Bless,
Eric


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## DurocShark (Jul 18, 2010)

I think it should be one big-assed Texas hat.


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## mbroberg (Jul 18, 2010)

skiprat said:


> Mike, if this is the case, then why would someone request to be put in group 2?
> 
> Because the reluctance to participate because of a fear of disappointing another, or a feeling one is just not that good yet doesn't apply to everyone.  Many in the IAP community have enough confidence in themselves to participate at any level.  But many do not.  Having 2 groups may put those that do not, at ease.
> 
> ...



Mike


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## skiprat (Jul 18, 2010)

Ok Mike. You have made your case very well and of course I'll support your Pith however you choose to do it, even though you're are a pain in a$$ and a stubborn old coot !!!:biggrin: :tongue:


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## hunter-27 (Jul 18, 2010)

skiprat said:


> Landon, I have NEVER jumped on a 'bandwagon' in my life. In fact, I resent the insinuation. I bang my own drum.


Taking this to PM to clarify, so as not to pollute this thread further.


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## mbroberg (Jul 18, 2010)

skiprat said:


> Ok Mike. You have made your case very well and of  course I'll support your Pith however you choose to do it, even though  you're are a pain in a$$ and a stubborn old coot !!!:biggrin: :tongue:


*
:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:
Coot*
                                                                                              Coot, a water bird that resembles a duck. The American coot is about  15 inches (38 cm) long. It has bluish-gray plumage, a black neck and  head, and an ivory-white bill. Instead of being webbed, the coot's toes  are fringed with scalloped flaps. Somewhat awkward in taking flight, the  coot patters along the surface of the water before becoming airborne.  It is a skillful diver and excellent swimmer. The female lays 8 to 15  brownish, spotted eggs in a nest built among the reeds of a freshwater  marsh. The range of the coot extends from Alaska and Greenland to the  West Indies.
The European coot is similar to the American coot in  appearance, but has an unnatural affinity for shiny things.
The American coot is  Fulica americana, and the European coot is F. atra. They belong to the  family Rallidae.




*The American coot has blue-gray  plumage, a black neck and head, and a white bill.*


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## skiprat (Jul 18, 2010)

Wrong 'Old Coot' Mike:wink::tongue:

http://theoldcoot.com/test.htm

Fun site:biggrin:


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## skiprat (Jul 18, 2010)

mbroberg said:


> *:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:*
> The European coot is similar to the American coot in appearance, but has an *unnatural affinity for* *shiny things.*


 
LOL :biggrin: :tongue: 

Did you spot the difference between the two coots? The Amercican one has a red head cos it was scalped by them Injuns:biggrin:


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## darcisowers (Jul 18, 2010)

I like the idea of one group.  if you "do your best" on the pen you send to your PITH partner, then what is the problem?


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## phillywood (Jul 18, 2010)

DurocShark said:


> I think it should be one big-assed Texas hat.


Don we have big hats not asses.:biggrin::tongue:


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## switt (Jul 18, 2010)

mbroberg said:


> Does anyone think it is possible that some of our newer members might be intimidated by the thought of being paired with one of the better pen makers on the board. I want to make sure everyone feels comfortable enough to participate. There are three days left until sign-ups begin. Should I (try to figure out) how to post a poll on the topic? Is there anyone out there who would not sign up out of fear that you would be paired with someone with much more experience than you?


 Absolutely.

Remember that when a hat is used, there is a degree of anonymity, which doesn't apply in this type of paired swap.  So yes, as new newcomer I'd feel very intimidated if I was paired with one of the masters whose work I see here.


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## GoodTurns (Jul 18, 2010)

skiprat said:


> Wrong 'Old Coot' Mike:wink::tongue:
> 
> http://theoldcoot.com/test.htm
> 
> Fun site:biggrin:



Awwww &*%%$#  ... 17


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## soligen (Jul 18, 2010)

So, here is how my train of thought works:

Given how new I am, grp one is gotta be the choice.

However, I want to make pens at grp 2 level.

I tend to believe that I CAN make pens at that level, if I try real hard and put in enough time. Heck, I put about 30 hours into butch's last challenge pen (probably took Butch 2 or 3). I just dont know what kind of pen is at this level.

I have never even handled someone elses pen, so trading with someone in grp 2 would do 3 things for me:

1) give me an example of fit & finish that I can compare my work to to see where I am
2) get feedback from from and experienced eye.
3) inspire me to new heights

The photos we post only show so much. You cant really tell the finer points.

So, I'm going to change my earlier position that there should be no categories, and instead suggest keep the categories, but pair grp 1 people with grp 2 people. 

And yes, I tend to rock the boat at work too :biggrin::biggrin:

And I would be happy to play the opposite role for someone too


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## bitshird (Jul 18, 2010)

GoodTurns said:


> Awwww &*%%$#  ... 17



you kids shouldn't feel too bad I scored a 20
and prolly could have scored a couple more except we have twin beds.


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