# CA, Acrylic and Polish



## 2cor520 (May 7, 2010)

I know this may bring out a few opinions but thats the point.

When I finish wood I sand, apply CA then sand and MM all the way up the scale.  I am very happy with the finish and it looks like glass.  Now when I finish acrylic I do the same and I think it looks good as well.

I hear some say that they do the same but on acrylics they polish.  Does the polish improve the look?  Should you polish CA as well since they are very similar?


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## cozee (May 7, 2010)

Does your car look better after it has been waxed/polished? I am not being sarcastic here as your car is esstentially finished in plastic these days as urethanes are prevelent. CA and acrylics are at the basic levels, urethanes. So yes, polishing does make a difference. I top off these finishes with a quick pass on the buffer using 2 different compounds, white and blue, and then apply a coat of good car wax. I use car wax simply because it is formulated to deal with road oils and grime and thusly provides a little more protection against acidic body oil.


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## Seer (May 7, 2010)

I wet sand my CA to polish it have not tried plastic polish because my ca comes out like glass.


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## 2cor520 (May 7, 2010)

Yes cozee, me car looks better waxed and polished but I also don't rub it in my hands all day and put it in my pocket. lol.  I guess my question is, does the polish give it something extra that holds up over time?


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## Mark (May 7, 2010)

Polish isn't going to give you a tougher finish. It simply refines it. The CA gives you a tougher finish.

It's like the clear coat on your car. The clear coat gives it durability. The polish makes it pretty. :biggrin:
Wax after polish will help with protecting your shine, but that is temporary (keep it shiny for the sale).


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## Monty (May 7, 2010)

Seer said:


> I wet sand my CA to polish it have not tried plastic polish because my ca comes out like glass.


Try an automotive antiswirl compound after MM. I like McGuires (SP) and I think you'll be surprised at the difference.


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## Seer (May 7, 2010)

Thanks Monty was going to ask what type polish now I know.  I have been redoing all my old friction pens and what a difference.  Gotta love CA like night and day.


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## Brooks803 (May 7, 2010)

The best plastic polish i've found is mcguires PlastX polish. you can find it on just about any car polish aisle. not expensive either.


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## jskeen (May 7, 2010)

remember guys, after you get that clean continuous coat of CA on your pen and get the top smooth, everything else is about removing as many scratches as possible.  All abrasives scratch the surface they are applied to.  That's what they are for.  The trick is to remove just enough material to get to the bottom of the deepest scratch on the surface, while not adding any more deeper scratches.  Then the next grade abrasive removes the scratches from the previous one, and so on and so on until the scratches are so small that they do not cause the light hitting the blank to bounce in all different directions.  A pen that has a nice "shine" is simply one that the light hitting the surface is reflected back in a consistent pattern because the scratches and other surface imperfections are small and rare enough not to interfere to a visible degree.  

micromesh pads, buffing wheels with different compounds, and polishes or swirl removers are all simply different grades of abrasives.  Regardless of how they are applied to the pen, they are simply removing tiny amounts of CA to level out the scratch pattern from the previous abrasive, and replace it with a smaller scratch pattern.  Of course this only works correctly if you move from a coarser abrasive to a finer one every step.  One mistake and you have erased however many previous steps, and gone back to a deeper scratch pattern.  This also happens IF YOUR ABRASIVE IS DIRTY!!!!!  A buffing wheel left uncovered in the shop one time while you cut, sand, turn whatever, is very likely contaminated with coarser particles and will either not polish as well, or sometimes actually rescratch your finish, undoing previous work.  Same with micromesh if it is stored in water that is not changed frequently, or without a little dish soap in it.  

Polishes are just fine particles of abrasive suspended in a liquid or paste.  They are usually very fine, and some have a special advantage that they break down fairly uniformly into even finer particles as they are used.  This only works if you keep the same material in contact with the surface, if you move your paper towel around, you defeat this.  And the medium usually has something in it to fill microscopic scratches and make the surface look even smoother, but that effect is temporary, which is one reason things need to be repolished from time to time.  

But remember, all this stuff only works if clean, and only if you have a thick, clean and uniform enough coat of CA to keep you from sanding through before you get all the scratches removed.  

Of course there is the bit about dancing widdershins around a fire, naked while the moon is ............... can't give away all the secrets, now can we


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## 2cor520 (May 7, 2010)

jskeen, great explanation, the key then is make sure you are always going the right direction with your abrasives.  Like you do with sand paper.

That could get tough if you don't know what is in the plastic/car polishes compared to MM.


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## mick (May 7, 2010)

Monty said:


> Try an automotive antiswirl compound after MM. I like McGuires (SP) and I think you'll be surprised at the difference.


 Manny, which McGuires do you use?
Without running out to the shop, I think the Plastix I use is a McGuire's product and I get great results with it.


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## 2cor520 (May 8, 2010)

Do those of you that use polish use MM first?


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## Mark (May 8, 2010)

I MM to 12K (which is the finest I have) then hit it with polish, then wax.

I don't think you need an aggressive polish. When I tried the swirl & haze remover I got a cloudy effect. I figure it must be more abrasive than the 12K MM. I just use a plastic polish and then my automotive paste wax. It dries quicker than the liquid waxes I've tried. Just my $.02


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## Jason Swanson (May 8, 2010)

When I put a CA finish on a pen I wet sand with Micro Mesh, then use a product made by HUT - plastic polish. CA is a plastic and it only seemed natural to use a Plastic Polish. The stuff is a milky white color and must be shaken before dispensing it onto a piece of Viva paper towel. Apply the polish to the pen while still on the lathe with the lathe turned off. Turn on the lathe at a lower RPM to avoid getting a plastic polish shower and slowly bring up the RPM once the polish has soaked into the paper towel. I apply two coats for best results. Just like friction polishes your pen will develop a high gloss right before your eyes. As a test, compare a polished blank to a non-polished blank and I think you should be able to both see and feel the difference. Another product to try would be 3M's "Finnesse-It" available at body shop supply stores. A little more costly (anything with the brand name 3M is) but I believe the grit is a little finer, which produces a higher gloss/polish level. Hope this helps... Jason


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## Monty (May 8, 2010)

mick said:


> Manny, which McGuires do you use?
> Without running out to the shop, I think the Plastix I use is a McGuire's product and I get great results with it.



Meant to post this last night but my CRS disease kicked in. 
I use Meguiar's Scratch X 2.0


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## ldb2000 (May 8, 2010)

2cor520 , 12000 MM has a grain size , I think , around 5 microns , plastic polishes start around 1 micron and there are other polishes that go into sub micron sized particles .


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## 2cor520 (May 9, 2010)

Thanks everyone, I'm going to grab some polish today.


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## cozee (May 9, 2010)

2cor520 said:


> Yes cozee, me car looks better waxed and polished but I also don't rub it in my hands all day and put it in my pocket. lol. I guess my question is, does the polish give it something extra that holds up over time?



And I originally stated:



cozee said:


> Does your car look better after it has been waxed/polished? I am not being sarcastic here as your car is esstentially finished in plastic these days as urethanes are prevelent. CA and acrylics are at the basic levels, urethanes. So yes, polishing does make a difference. I top off these finishes with a quick pass on the buffer using 2 different compounds, white and blue, and then apply a coat of good car wax.* I use car wax simply because it is formulated to deal with road oils and grime and thusly provides a little more protection against acidic body oil.*




Once one understands how a high gloss finish is reached then it is easier to understand how to so about achieving it. Though the eye cannot see it, a piece of glass is not perfectly smooth. There are micro high and low spots, i.e. commonly scratches and pitting. Same with what looks to be a glass smooth finish on a pen. The smoothness comes from one being able to level the playing field between these highs and lows. Gloss also arises from this process as it is nothing more than the reflection of light from the flat surfaces caused from the sanding and polishing processes. The micro highs and lows are typically minute scratches in a surface. When light hits these scratches then it is reflected back at angles due to the typical "V" shape of the scratch. As one sands down the high spots, the depth of the scratch decreases and the flat spots of the surface become greater. The greater the area of the flat spots the greater the direct reflection of light thus resulting in a "higher gloss". When wax is applied to a properly prepared surface, it will in a sense add to the gloss as it fills the micro scratches that are left and deter any off angle reflections. These off angle reflections have a tendency to create a blur or haze effect in the gloss. 

Wax does not offer solid particle abrasion protection above a certain size micron but under that, it is a film, a layer, and thus offers some protection to abrasion. Most automotive waxes are formulated to offer protection against road oils and other grime. Our body oils have different levels of acid in them. Acid will eat away at most finishes that we apply to a pen. 

In the end though, as with finishes, it is all about what works for each of us!!!

Turn On!!!


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## 2cor520 (May 9, 2010)

Thanks, cozee.  What is your polish of choice?


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## cozee (May 9, 2010)

Being a body shop manager, I get a lot of "samples" from my jobbers so I just use what I have on hand. If I were to go out and buy one, it would be one of the newer "nano" waxes.


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## 2cor520 (May 12, 2010)

So I got some Mcguires PlastX polish over the weekend and am having some problems.  I finished a pen as usual and MM to 12000.  I then applied the polish with a paper towel and it left lines on the CA.  I then went back and MMed to 12000 and applied polish with a piece of cotton t-shirt.  I got the same result as the towel but not quite as bad but it was still messed up.

What is the correct thing to use to apply and is there any special method?


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## Mark (May 12, 2010)

When I do use plastic polish, I work it into the blank. Essentially the heat of working it in, breaks down the abrasives to smaller and smaller particles. Then I run a microfiber towel over the blank to remove everything off my nice smooth surface.

That should not leave any lines. If you are applying the polish and letting it dry (like another layer of CA) Don't do it. 
Plastic polish is not a layering product.
It's simply a liquid abrasive. Hopefully finer than 12K MM. 

Just work it over the blank and use a clean towel to wipe/buff it off. Then wax.


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## 2cor520 (May 12, 2010)

Mark, what do you work it in with?  The microfiber?


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## PaulDoug (May 12, 2010)

I polish with the lathe at a high speed.  Like about 3000 rpms.   Just thought I'd throw that in, hadn't seen it mentioned yet.


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## jskeen (May 12, 2010)

I agree, I put a small dab of polish on a clean folded viva paper towel, and apply to the blank spinning at max speed.  Apply a little pressure so that the polish gets warm, and move back and forth on the blank, but not up and down on the paper towel, IE let the same spot stay in contact with the blank.  You should be able to see the shine form and the line from the nearest light get narrower and brighter as the micro high spots are removed and the lows fill in.  Then wipe with another clean towel and apply wax if necessary.  

If this process is causing problems, let's try to be specific as to what kind of problem, that makes it easier to remove the cause.  Are you seeing individual scratches circling the blank?  as if there were particles in the polish that were too large and scratching?  if so it may be a bad batch of polish or you may be introducing contamination somehow.  Make sure the applicator is clean, ie not just looks clean, but came directly from somewhere other than the shop, and is stored in a clean ziploc bag or something like that.  Make sure there are no "crusties" on the bottle or tube cap that could get in there.  

If the "lines" are actually thicker than individual scratches, it may be that the polish is not being applied evenly.  I fold a paper towel up to about one inch wide, several layers thick.  apply one large drop of polish in the center, and use two fingers under it to rub back and forth, that way the polish tends to stay in the middle and get wiped up by the outside areas, so it does not get left behind in a thick layer on the blank.  Again, your only applying an abrasive to the blank, not leaving behind a visible coating of polish per say. It doesn't hurt if the paper towel is a little damp either (as long as it's clean water)


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## 2cor520 (May 12, 2010)

I am seeing individual scratchs circling the blank.  I started with a new bottle of polish with no visible signs of crust and a new roll of paper towels (viva), thats why I thought it might be that the paper towel was to abrasive.

jskeen, I will try again with what you have said, thanks.


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## ROOKIETURNER (May 12, 2010)

I would like to add my 2 cents. Sanding and polishing a finish does make it more durable. I am not sure why someone would say it doesn't. The fewer scratches and abrasions in a material makes it a less porous surface, thus reducing the amount of oils and acids that can penetrate. So sand and polishing is a must for the most durable finish. Waxing is temporary but will protect the finish for a small amount of time.

Second, I am not sure why anyone would take a paper towel to a high gloss finish. Paper towel is made of wood pulp, and will leave scratches. Would you apply polish or wax to a car with a paper towel? Being a certified optician rule number one of cleaning plastic lenses is never use paper towel. Always use 100% cotton or micorfiber. I MM to 12000 and then apply Headlight Lense cleaner with a microfiber, then Miguire's PlastX polish with micorfiber and lastly Huts High Gloss plastic polish with a cotton t-shirt.

I agree with the above advice that applying polishing isn't simply wiping on and off, you must work it into whatever surface you are polishing.

Just don't over heat the acrylic ends, it can deform them quickly (DAMHIKT).

Rob


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## jskeen (May 12, 2010)

Good point Rob on the paper towels vs cloth.  I'll try paper on the cap and cloth on the barrel of my next pen, and try to get some time on a comparative microscope to see the difference.  I've always said that viva was just as good as cloth at the level we're working with, and the difference would not be detectable, but why guess when I can prove it.  (or try to anyway)


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## PaulSF (May 12, 2010)

2cor520 said:


> I am seeing individual scratchs circling the blank.  I started with a new bottle of polish with no visible signs of crust and a new roll of paper towels (viva), thats why I thought it might be that the paper towel was to abrasive.
> 
> jskeen, I will try again with what you have said, thanks.



This may be left over from the initial sanding.  After running the sandpaper over the blank while it spins on the lathe, do you then sand lengthwise with the lathe turned off?   This will remove the circular scratch rings around the blank from the sanding. I know it's pretty basic, because I forgot to do it on my first 5 or 6 pens!


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## 2cor520 (May 12, 2010)

You are correct, it is very important to sand lengthwise and I do sand that way unless I forget.  But I inspect pretty closely between grits to make sure all is well.

In this case I have been trying to improve on my finish, I have always MMed my CA up to 12000 and stopped and been happy.  After reading some posts on polishing, I thought I would give it a try, just have not got it down yet.  I think I will try again with microfiber.


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## Mark (May 12, 2010)

2cor520 said:


> Mark, what do you work it in with?  The microfiber?



Yes. I use the MF for most of my pen related activities. 

I still apply CA with a paper towel. Luckily that has not caused me any issues. I rarely use thin CA anymore, other than stabilizing a blank, that may be why.

James (jskeen) pretty much described what I do. 

Good Luck.


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