# Exoticblanks BAD batch of Accelerator...?



## wiset1

I recently purchased two containers of accelerator from exoticblanks.com in an attempt to cut the outrageous prices on PSI.  Well, the first time I used the accelerator it turned the CA glue all misty and white.  Basically clouded up the CA and didn't dry it at all.  The CA seemed to remain tacky and had to dry on its own before I could strip everything back down to the wood.  Thinking that this was a bad batch I opened up the second one and tried it again with the same results which again required me to strip the CA off the tube.  I wrote Exoticblanks about this and to date I've yet to hear back from them which is a little upsetting, so with that being said...does anyone have any idea why this would happen?  The Accelerator purchased from PSI has NEVER done this to my CA so why would the one from exoticblanks do it?  Anyone else been blown off by exoticblanks not responding???


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## Smitty37

*Give Ed a chance*



wiset1 said:


> I recently purchased two containers of accelerator from exoticblanks.com in an attempt to cut the outrageous prices on PSI. Well, the first time I used the accelerator it turned the CA glue all misty and white. Basically clouded up the CA and didn't dry it at all. The CA seemed to remain tacky and had to dry on its own before I could strip everything back down to the wood. Thinking that this was a bad batch I opened up the second one and tried it again with the same results which again required me to strip the CA off the tube. I wrote Exoticblanks about this and to date I've yet to hear back from them which is a little upsetting, so with that being said...does anyone have any idea why this would happen? The Accelerator purchased from PSI has NEVER done this to my CA so why would the one from exoticblanks do it? Anyone else been blown off by exoticblanks not responding???


 
Give Ed a chance, he will stand behind what he sells.


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## witz1976

Exactly... Ed admitted that he has had issues with his e-mail server, so if you did not get a response that is why.  Try PMing him here.  Also I believe his accelerator & CA glues comes from Monty (another member here), they are the best!  

I wish I could give you an answer with the CA, just curious what wood did you apply it on, and how old is it?


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## alphageek

Tim,

I would 2nd the contacting exotics by PMing either Ed (ed4copies) or Dawn (pr_princess).   However, you may also want to verify the email address you used with them for contact in that PM.   I have a special log that I setup to help debug any email issues they might have.   If you used any of the @exoticsblanks.com addresses - there should be a log of your message.  I don't see any log of an email from you (unless I'm looking wrong).  

Also hopefully Monty will chime in with his experiences.   You didn't post what brand and speed of CA - (thin, med, or thick) - which may help as well in debugging this.


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## Boz

I would not flame Exotics at this point.  I e-mailed them yesterday and did not hear back so there maybe some truth to the notion that that they are having problems with their server.  It is a little old school but they do have a fax number on their contact page.  You could try that.


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## PenMan1

PM Ed or Dawn. That is the easiest way to contact them. I know, first hand, that they stand behind their products.

Secondly, have you tried another glue? This issue could just as easily be the glue as the accelerator. CA glue mixed with accelerator is like a cat, it has a mind of its own and how it behaves depends on its mood. You problem sounds more like old glue than bad accelerator.

In the past, I've had problems with NEW PSI glue not curing properly. In their defense, I am sure they sell big quanties to the masses. That makes it more difficult to keep properly rotated inventory.

Since I started buying glue from Monty, my glue and accelerator issues have disappeared.


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## greggas

ditto on everybody else's comments regarding Ed...Have purchased many, many times from him and anyone who spends any time on this site nows how important customer service and PR ( public relations not poly resin) are to him.  I'm sure there is a good reason as to why you have not heard back yet.

Regarding the technical portion of your question, assuming that you used the accelerator from Ed with CA that you had from another source, I have had similar issues in the past with using accelerator from one manufacturer with CA from another...not sure why but I know make sure that my CA and accelerator are from the same


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## IPD_Mrs

There is also two different types of accelerator.  One has about 50% acetone and one around 8% or less.  Acetone is also a debonder.  If it is cold where you are using it, then that will expand the problem.  Personally I will not use the accelerator with high acetone content.


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## PenMan1

greggas said:


> Regarding the technical portion of your question, assuming that you used the accelerator from Ed with CA that you had from another source, I have had similar issues in the past with using accelerator from one manufacturer with CA from another...not sure why but I know make sure that my CA and accelerator are from the same



I'm not sure if different manufacturers caused the problems I was having or not. But I have decided not to tempt the Pen Gods. I buy my glue and accelerator from the same the manufacturer, the same vendor, at the same time. Why take a chance? I can think of nothing more frustrating than making a beautiful pen, then screwing it up while finishing.


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## USAFVET98

Is it possible they were switched and you used debonder or maybe the bottles were mislabeled? I never had a problem with exotics or Montys products. They are top notch in my book. I would also try to reconsider the words "blown off" as I have never seen them do this to anyone. They are fair people and I highly doubt they blew you off. Give them some time to read the message as they probably have a glitch in their system..


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## aggromere

I have bought literally dozens of bottles of glue and accelerator, the 16oz ones,  (regular not mild) of the brand ed sells and have never had an issue.  I would imagine it is very cold in Germany, so maybe the CA is cold, or another brand and old.

I am sure Ed and Dawn will do what ever it takes to make it right.


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## soligen

There are variations in CA formulations, so if your CA is a different brand, it may the the issue.  

I once mixed brands of CA and accellerator, and it did not work nearly as well.  I had to spray about 5 times more accellerator than I needed to when the brands matched.  Its not exactly what you are seeing, but it convinced me that mixing brands of CA and Accellerator is probably not a good idea.


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## Monty

Tim,
I reiterate what others have said. Give Ed a chance to respond by PM.
I, personally, haven't had any experience with any other brands of CA or accelerator except EZ Bond and have never had the problem you describe. Please post what brand of CA and the thickness (thin, medium or thick). That will help troubleshoot the problem.


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## livertrans

I  ran out of accelerator in my small spray bottle and grabbed  the  debonder mistakenly  to refill my bottle and ended up with about the same result. I wish the labels were different colors. It is too easy to  grab the wrong bottle. Like every has told you give Ed a chance to respond. He will make it right with you. And perhaps your PSI brand ca is at fault.


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## louie68

Ed/Dawn will take care of your issue, They are good people and stand behind what they sell.
By handling the issue throught PM first should be the way to go about the problem.
Not this way!!!
"Diplomatic" Business Minded, Goes a long wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy!
Plus they tend to rememberrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!
Louie56


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## bruce119

I will also say you didn't say how much time you gave him to respond. This was a holiday weekend here in the USA last weekend. Email can take some time and with filters and all that spam stuff not 100% reliable. I know Ed is VERY reliable there must be a reason for miscommunication.

Now as to the accelerator I think there are 2 types. I think there is a slower (Mild) and a faster not really sure I use the Standard accelerator. I have never had a problem I use it by the gallon. And the self life is long currently my gal. is going on over 2 years now. The color has darkened but it still functions just fine. 

Now I have experienced the CA developing a white powder somewhat as you describe but this is due to application error. If you put the CA on real heavy and try to force it with the accelerator your asking for trouble. If you use to much accelerator (soak it down) your asking for trouble. Also I found that moisture will defiantly cause the white powder like if I try to speed up the cure by blowing on it the moisture from my breath will fog (White powder) the CA. So how high is the humidity there? Have you tried on another surface perhaps there is something in the material you are trying to finish. I would lean toward operator error.

You know accelerator applied directly to a cured CA surface will soften it and when it dries it will be white and powdery. You can also use accelerator as a CA debonder.

These are just my experiences and opinions.

Bruce


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## penhead

While waiting for Ed/Dawn to fix their server or email or whatever the problem is...and for them to be incommudicado something must be wrong....

...just wondering, since I don't use excellerator on my CA finishes, does that work for most people..??..not that anything is right/wrong either way with/without...just wondering if I need to try something different..??


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## renowb

Ditto on Exotic Blanks customer service! They are the best! They will definitely make it right. I always order from them and will do so in the future. I know it is aggravating not hearing from them, but when site problems occur, it's not their fault. Also, I use Monty's ca consistently and have never had a problem.


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## johncrane

I agree with Bruce! on this one, moisture will cloud your finish,


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## maxwell_smart007

I've had white misting, clouding, etc. numerous times.  I don't know what the reason is, but it's one of many variables....I don't know that the accelerator has much to do with it, personally...

Moisture content, amount of CA being 'flashed' and amount of accelerator used seem to the be the variables in my experience.  If I spray a big puddle of CA with accelerator, it usually turns white.  

That being said, send ed4copies (Exotic Blanks) a PM on this site, and he'll respond.  His email is rather wonky on his website, I believe.  

And please, let's not turn this into a twenty-page pile-on, ok?


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## Nikitas

They will fix it


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## leestoresund

Ed and Dawn have never failed to respond. With all of these posts on this thread and they have not chimed in I feel pretty certain that they are not receiving the message.
A couple of weeks ago they did not respond to me for2-3 days and it turned out they were out of town.
Let's face it, this is not a life or death situation, merely an inconvenience.
To trash someone over a few bucks is pretty ridiculous.
Just my $.03.

Lee


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## ThomJ

What Bruce said

Senor Ed is great to deal with, patience

I had an issue with the CA foaming up white, my problem was heavy CA, and over application of accelerator


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## ed4copies

Well, here's the story.  (Andrew, I don't mind 20 page pile ons---)

I received your message, Tim---on Monday.  But I had no answer.  Here is my "thought pattern":

The CA accelerant we sell comes from Monty, who has sold hundreds of bottles, so he's my "expert", of sorts.
But, before I went to him with this, I would ask what CA you were using---you pointed out you used to use PSI accelerant, so I "guessed" you were using PSI CA.  Which is, apparently, a private label product.  Thus, we would not be able to readily identify the source, so compatibility issues could not be resolved without that information.

Additionally, from my own experience (as many here have also said), doing a CA finish and using accelerrant, can result in problems, seemingly based on temperature and humidity conditions.  None of this information is in the email you sent, but I understand you were looking to me for a simple answer.  I don't believe there IS a simple answer.

So, that's why I had not replied yet.   I expected to take some time over the weekend and research this by finding old threads on this (IAP) website and sending you a thorough answer.  I believe this thread does a better job than I would have.

The question remains without a definitive answer.  If you want to return the accelerant, we would give you a refund, certainly.  Or, you may want to try our CA and see if it IS a compatibility issue.  

So, thanks for starting the thread----Monty's entry confirms that this is not a "known problem", so we are left to experiment to determine a solution.

We are willing to assist you in any way you deem reasonable.

Thanks to all for your replies and don't stop NOW!!!!  

Ed


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## wiset1

*Ed and Forum*

 Without throwing gas on the fire here I'll address the issues and perhaps that will help answer the questions about what happened since that's what I'm really looking for.

* CA used was (E-Z Bond Medium CA) bought from Exotics
* Accelerator used was (E-Z Bond Accelerator) bought from Exotics

I had been using the same CA glue all day long for other pens while using the accelerator purchased from PSI.  This combo of the two didn't pose an issue, so when the bottle of PSI accelerator ran dry I used the E-Z bond brand accelerator along with the E-Z bond Medium CA glue.  This combo resulted in the problem noted in the original post.

I am sorry that so many fellow turners feel I have done wrong by posting this to an open forum; however, I was not aware that Ed was having issues with his server.  Ed has always done right by me when purchasing blanks from the site and has always kept me as a customer based on his customer service and the free blanks.  My request for help was posted through the site using the contact link.

Ed, I will contact you through PM.  Being new to turning I had no idea that Members of the forum ran the site and with that being said I didn't know who to contact via PM.  Now I know


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## terryf

Tim

I also had clouding and when I tried different types of CA I found I had varying degrees of clouding with two giving none at all, so those are the two I use now.

Have you tried other CA's?


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## Nick

Now that is true customer service by far on Ed's part. IMHO one should think a problem through before complaining to the vendor. Ed and Dawn always will respond to a customer problem (remember they are busy too) and come up with an answer to satisfy their customer. You can count on them for top line service.
Respectfully
Nick


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## wiset1

Terry,

I've only ever used PSI brand CA until I purchased the E-Z bond glues.  I really liked the finish I got from the E-Z bond, but the mixture of the accelerator posed a problem.  Now I'm just doing a layer of CA and letting it air dry before doing another layer.

Truth be told, this was a minor issue and I thought asking for help in the forum would help resolve the matter.  At this point the feedback has become bloated and taken on a life of its own which makes me think twice about posting here again.

I serve my country proudly while being stationed overseas and turning pens is a way to keep focus on the mission when I make it back to work.  Pulling hair and scratching eyes on an open forum about hurt feelings is something I can do without so I'm thinking it's best to resolve matters through PM's and keep my pens to myself.


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## Monty

Tim,
I seem to be the go to guy for CA problems here and Ed get his CA supplies from me. Now that I know you were using both EZ Bond glue and CA, this makes it a little more puzzling. All I use is EZ Bond products and the worst I've ever had happen is white spots or "ghosting" when the wood has too much moisture content.
In order to help solve the problem, would you please post the type of wood you were using along with a step by step narration of how you applied the glue and accelerator? I'm not saying it didn't happen, but if I can reproduce the same bad results, then we will know where the problem lies and how to correct it.


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## ed4copies

wiset1 said:


> Without throwing gas on the fire here I'll address the issues and perhaps that will help answer the questions about what happened since that's what I'm really looking for.
> 
> * CA used was (E-Z Bond Medium CA) bought from Exotics
> * Accelerator used was (E-Z Bond Accelerator) bought from Exotics
> 
> I had been using the same CA glue all day long for other pens while using the accelerator purchased from PSI.  This combo of the two didn't pose an issue, so when the bottle of PSI accelerator ran dry I used the E-Z bond brand accelerator along with the E-Z bond Medium CA glue.  This combo resulted in the problem noted in the original post.
> 
> I am sorry that so many fellow turners feel I have done wrong by posting this to an open forum; however, I was not aware that Ed was having issues with his server.  Ed has always done right by me when purchasing blanks from the site and has always kept me as a customer based on his customer service and the free blanks.  My request for help was posted through the site using the contact link.
> 
> Ed, I will contact you through PM.  Being new to turning I had no idea that Members of the forum ran the site and with that being said I didn't know who to contact via PM.  Now I know



Hey Tim---I don't fault you at all for using the IAP for an answer!!!  And I don't feel "attacked" when someone looks for good information I have failed to timely provide.

I have gotten a couple PM's from friends advising me, properly, that I should have replied to you.  I apologize for not doing so--and I will reply to everyone the first time I read an email in the future. (Though the reply MAY just say I have to research the problem, but at least it will let you know I am aware of it).


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## alphageek

wiset1 said:


> Without throwing gas on the fire here I'll address the issues and perhaps that will help answer the questions about what happened since that's what I'm really looking for.
> 
> * CA used was (E-Z Bond Medium CA) bought from Exotics
> * Accelerator used was (E-Z Bond Accelerator) bought from Exotics
> 
> I had been using the same CA glue all day long for other pens while using the accelerator purchased from PSI.  This combo of the two didn't pose an issue, so when the bottle of PSI accelerator ran dry I used the E-Z bond brand accelerator along with the E-Z bond Medium CA glue.  This combo resulted in the problem noted in the original post.
> 
> I am sorry that so many fellow turners feel I have done wrong by posting this to an open forum; however, I was not aware that Ed was having issues with his server.  Ed has always done right by me when purchasing blanks from the site and has always kept me as a customer based on his customer service and the free blanks.  My request for help was posted through the site using the contact link.
> 
> Ed, I will contact you through PM.  Being new to turning I had no idea that Members of the forum ran the site and with that being said I didn't know who to contact via PM.  Now I know



Glad you got more information out here.. Don't feel bad about public posting - I know Ed likes sharing information, so he's ok with things and would like to know if there is an issue.   This site is full of great people, and I know sometimes any negative post can lead to our members "protecting" those being posted about.

As for email problems, we don't think there is any at this point, but email is not a 'guaranteed' delivery service.  Too many points of failure and blocking possibilities.  Even if it was received, there is times a reply can be lost.

As for your glue/CA issue - I have to say thats really weird as thats a combination many have used... Personally, I have a hard time using acceleration without things "turning white", but as for not hardening thats really strange?   I wonder if something can happen to mess it up in transit (freezing??)


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## ed4copies

Now, on to the problem.

Using our glue and our accelerator has always worked FOR ME (which is NOT saying it should work for you!!!)

So, I don't know what to suggest.  I used to use an aerosol accelerator.  The company that made it went out of business, so I asked Monty to let me try his.  It worked great, so I started using it.

I can "suggest" that my method is to keep the blank turning on the lathe (I use about 2300 rpm, don't know if it matters) and spray the plunger from about a foot away.  What hits the blank is a fine mist, at that distance.

I know what you are talking about, with foaming--I have had it happen with other CA and accelerators, but the EZ Bond has always worked, for me.

Again, if you want to return for credit, I am "fine" with that---I can use yours in my shop (NO, everyone, we WON'T resell it---it is open!!)  And I  wish I could give you a better answer.

PM me, if you like, or continue our conversation here---I don't want to hide a thing---besides we may find others are having the problem, as well by making the discussion public----I'm "good with that"!!!


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## jkeithrussell

Here's my best guess. Maybe you were using an aerosol accelerator from PSI to spray the blank after applying CA to speed up the curing process. The accelerator that Monty sells through Exotic Blanks comes in a small pump bottle. It does not come out in a fine mist, but in a spray like hair spray. If you use it to spray the blank, you get bigger droplets. My guess is that the CA on your blank was still wet, and the bigger drops of CA reacted differently than you were experiencing with the aerosol can. 

Here's a way to test it. Spray a little of the accelerator from the pump bottle onto a paper towel and wipe down the blank before applying CA. Apply CA, wait a couple of seconds, and spray more accelerator on the paper towel, wipe down the blank, and repeat. You can use some pressure when applying the accelerant this way, and it will smooth out the CA.


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## G1Pens

Tim,

I am a newbie here and have read all the posts with interest. In the process I have learned a lot about the use of CA, but more importantly, I have learned that this IS the place to come with issues and problem, whether it is instructional needs, advice, material or equipment problem or vendor issues.

I think where you "erred" was in the last sentence of your post. "Anyone else been blown off by exoticblanks not responding???". I don't know Ed, I have purchased from him several times with no problems. But, I know from reading posts on this forum for the last few months, that the users here think very highly of Ed. I think if you had just worded that last sentence a little differently you would not feel so "attacked". Personally, I don't think you meant it to sound as confrontational as it did.

This forum is an excellent place to come and get questions answered. I have learned a lot here and will continue to do so. I hope you do the same.


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## john l graham

I hope and pray that my combination of CA and Accel don't go out of business.  It took me forever to figure out the process I use.  I would not want to have to relearn the complexities involved with the finish.  With the extreme changes in temp and humidity here I always wonder if a problem will arise.  Thanks to all for the advise here on IAP.  I will refrain from blowing on my finish!


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## wiset1

Okay, step by step

-Blank is on the lathe and already sanded to grit.
-Using a VS lathe I had it turned down to the lowest setting
-Using a single piece of folded papertowel I applied a layer thin CA
-I always allow this first layer of CA to air dry
-30 minutes later I followed the same steps, but used Medium E-Z bond CA
-With the lathe on at the lowest speed I spray the accelerator about 3 squirts
-At this time I notice the Cocobolo blank fogging over
-I turn off the lathe and touch the blank to see what the problem is
-I pull my finger free of the blank and notice that the blank is tacky

This is the basic steps.  It should also be noted that I had just finished 3 pens using the same method without issue when using the Medium CA and the PSI accelerator.  The issue happened when I moved over to the E-Z bond brand accelerator.  I have no idea where the problem is and I'm sure it's something minor that will be resolved in time.  Those of you who know me and have seen my pens know that I have a firm grasp on how to do a CA finish so this was odd for me to see.


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## wiset1

jkeithrussell said:


> Here's my best guess. Maybe you were using an aerosol accelerator from PSI to spray the blank after applying CA to speed up the curing process. The accelerator that Monty sells through Exotic Blanks comes in a small pump bottle. It does not come out in a fine mist, but in a spray like hair spray. If you use it to spray the blank, you get bigger droplets. My guess is that the CA on your blank was still wet, and the bigger drops of CA reacted differently than you were experiencing with the aerosol can.
> 
> Here's a way to test it. Spray a little of the accelerator from the pump bottle onto a paper towel and wipe down the blank before applying CA. Apply CA, wait a couple of seconds, and spray more accelerator on the paper towel, wipe down the blank, and repeat. You can use some pressure when applying the accelerant this way, and it will smooth out the CA.


 
PSI accelerator is in a spray pump as well and that's why I figured it was an quick swap matching my needs.  I'm sure this combo works a thousand times, but for some reason it reacted on mine.  While it may be an isolated matter I would like to figure out what happened so I don't do it again.

Thank you


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## Russianwolf

COCOBOLO!!!!!!!

The oils in Cocobolo will often have a reaction with CA. Similar for all the Dalbergia Species (Rosewoods).


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## Phunky_2003

Tim,

Have you by any chance tried to use this CA and Accelerator on another blank?  Cocobolo is known to cause problems with CA finishes.


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## danroggensee

Here is my answer to you problem. Did you just poor the ez accelerator into the same spraypump that you used with the other accelerator that could be the problem they do not mix well. it happen to me that way.

Dan


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## Monty

wiset1 said:


> Okay, step by step
> 
> -Blank is on the lathe and already sanded to grit.
> -Using a VS lathe I had it turned down to the lowest setting
> -Using a single piece of folded papertowel I applied a layer thin CA
> -I always allow this first layer of CA to air dry
> -30 minutes later I followed the same steps, but used Medium E-Z bond CA
> -With the lathe on at the lowest speed I spray the accelerator about 3 squirts
> -At this time I notice the Cocobolo blank fogging over
> -I turn off the lathe and touch the blank to see what the problem is
> -I pull my finger free of the blank and notice that the blank is tacky
> 
> This is the basic steps.  It should also be noted that I had just finished 3 pens using the same method without issue when using the Medium CA and the PSI accelerator.  The issue happened when I moved over to the E-Z bond brand accelerator.  I have no idea where the problem is and I'm sure it's something minor that will be resolved in time.  Those of you who know me and have seen my pens know that I have a firm grasp on how to do a CA finish so this was odd for me to see.


From this, I don't see anything wrong that you did. If anything, _maybe_ too much accelerator. I think I have a piece of coco in the shop. I'll give it a try tomorrow following your steps and see what happens.


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## wiset1

danroggensee said:


> Here is my answer to you problem. Did you just poor the ez accelerator into the same spraypump that you used with the other accelerator that could be the problem they do not mix well. it happen to me that way.
> 
> Dan


 
I opened the bag the accelerator came in and screwed on the aplicator pump that came with it.  No cross contamination.

The barrel of the pen finished fine using the PSI brand accelerator so the fact that it was Cocobolo....not sure that was an issue


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## wiset1

Monty said:


> wiset1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, step by step
> 
> -Blank is on the lathe and already sanded to grit.
> -Using a VS lathe I had it turned down to the lowest setting
> -Using a single piece of folded papertowel I applied a layer thin CA
> -I always allow this first layer of CA to air dry
> -30 minutes later I followed the same steps, but used Medium E-Z bond CA
> -With the lathe on at the lowest speed I spray the accelerator about 3 squirts
> -At this time I notice the Cocobolo blank fogging over
> -I turn off the lathe and touch the blank to see what the problem is
> -I pull my finger free of the blank and notice that the blank is tacky
> 
> This is the basic steps. It should also be noted that I had just finished 3 pens using the same method without issue when using the Medium CA and the PSI accelerator. The issue happened when I moved over to the E-Z bond brand accelerator. I have no idea where the problem is and I'm sure it's something minor that will be resolved in time. Those of you who know me and have seen my pens know that I have a firm grasp on how to do a CA finish so this was odd for me to see.
> 
> 
> 
> From this, I don't see anything wrong that you did. If anything, _maybe_ too much accelerator. I think I have a piece of coco in the shop. I'll give it a try tomorrow following your steps and see what happens.
Click to expand...

 
Monty,

I really have no idea what the issue was...I've made so many pens recently using the same method, in the same workshop, under the same conditions  I'm sorry if this post posed a question as to the product in question...just working to resolve a problem.


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## Padre

Tim,
Please don't feel anyone is 'scratching your eyes out' over this.  We are all going to learn from these posts, and that is a good thing.

I agree with everyone that Ed and Dawn are fantastic folks who stand 100% behind their products.

But if we don't ask questions, how do we learn?  So please continue to share your pens with us as well as your problems.  That's how we all benefit.


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## G1Pens

One other question I have that I have not seen asked.....have you tried to reproduce the problem. In other words have you turned another cocobolo and tried to finish it with the same combo of CA and accelerator?


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## witz1976

The only thing I can think of that may make the difference is that as previously mentioned some accelerators have more acetone than others.  Perhaps this could be the cause?  It is even trickier where you are using coco...I had nightmares trying to finish that.  Have you tried turning and finishing a different species?  I am curious if you have same results.


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## wiset1

G1Pens said:


> One other question I have that I have not seen asked.....have you tried to reproduce the problem. In other words have you turned another cocobolo and tried to finish it with the same combo of CA and accelerator?


 
Once this happened I let it air dry and then I sanded it down to the wood again and tried the steps again which resulted in the same fogged finish. While this was the same result it was on the exact blank it happened to originaly. It should be made clear that the barrel finished like glass without issue using the PSI accelerator so I'm not puting too much value in the idea that it was the wood.


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## wiset1

witz1976 said:


> The only thing I can think of that may make the difference is that as previously mentioned some accelerators have more acetone than others. Perhaps this could be the cause? It is even trickier where you are using coco...I had nightmares trying to finish that. Have you tried turning and finishing a different species? I am curious if you have same results.


 
Perhaps this could have been the issue, but at this point I think I'll try and send it back to Ed to see what he thinks since it was both bottles.  I'll try again on a blown out blank I have in the shop to see if I get the same results.  I really like the product and the price so I would like to figure out what the problem was.


----------



## Dudley Young

Put the accelerator on the shelf and use BLO.


----------



## wiset1

Dudley Young said:


> Put the accelerator on the shelf and use BLO.


 
This is how new I am to turning...What's BLO?  As seen in my gallery, the CA works for me but if BLO works...???


----------



## Russianwolf

BLO - Boiled Linseed Oil


----------



## wiset1

I'll have to look into it and see how the results turn out.  Thanks for the info


----------



## Russianwolf

if you do a bit of reading of the threads related to CA on the site you'll find that a change in any one aspect can change the outcome. What works for one person here, will not work for another person over there and the like. 

It got so frustrating for me, that I avoid CA altogether for my pens and only use it when I absolutely must (I'll use it to stabilize a blank but not as the finish most of the time). 

Be patient and you may find an answer, be willing to change how you apply it, and try not to huff the fumes. :tongue:


----------



## ed4copies

Because the first half of the pen "worked" and the second half didn't and the only thing changed was the accelerant, I certainly see the logic of Tim's surmise that it is the accelerant.

So, my focus would be on the difference between an aerosol container and the "spritzer".  An aerosol can be used about 6" from the blank to 18" or so, all successfully.  A spritzer, if used too close to the blank, will spew "droplets".  So, my best guess is the distance from the blank should be increased.

Take this for what it is worth, as a "hypothesis".  It will not be a "solution" unless confirmed by experimentation.

IF you just want to return the products and go back to the way that has worked for you---that is fine, too.

We aim to please!!!


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## wiset1

ed4copies said:


> Because the first half of the pen "worked" and the second half didn't and the only thing changed was the accelerant, I certainly see the logic of Tim's surmise that it is the accelerant.
> 
> So, my focus would be on the difference between an aerosol container and the "spritzer". An aerosol can be used about 6" from the blank to 18" or so, all successfully. A spritzer, if used too close to the blank, will spew "droplets". So, my best guess is the distance from the blank should be increased.
> 
> Take this for what it is worth, as a "hypothesis". It will not be a "solution" unless confirmed by experimentation.
> 
> IF you just want to return the products and go back to the way that has worked for you---that is fine, too.
> 
> We aim to please!!!


 
Since this is more about finding a solution than anything else I'll give it a try this weekend and see what the results are.  Thanks Ed for your understanding and assistance.


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## ed4copies

Hey Tim----ANY opportunity to learn is a GOOD thing!!!!

I will learn as much, if not more than anyone from this.

Thank you!!!


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## roddesigner

I got to throw this out not being a CA person but could the accelerator have been frozen thawed frozen again in transit and  would that make a difference.

Next re bad batch a term very often seen on rodbuilding pages in regard to finish, something to consider is the materials used to make the end product are mixed in large quantities the packaged in smaller bottles if there is a bad batch and it's possible there would be numerous post regarding the product and possible defects not one, most often it is user error in some way and with CA it appears a common problem, good opportunity to test various things and find out what the culprit is, to hot to cold, humidity etc.
Big thing is please post results of the test for all to learn from


----------



## Monty

Tim,
One thing I forgot to ask, are you using the regular or mild accelerator. If you're not sure, the regular in in a frosted looking  bottle with a white cap and the mild is a clear bottle with a black cap.


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## Monty

John, I doubt it was frozen as the freezing point of acetone is about -138*F.


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## ed4copies

Monty said:


> John, I doubt it was frozen as the freezing point of acetone is about -138*F.




No, it was in the office last night, not in the car!!!!
(-139 or so outside)


----------



## nativewooder

Well, it is my humble uneducated opinion, since I have used these products since 2003 without a problem, that someone played a "joke" on someone else and peed in the bottle!


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## greggas

How many of us said to ourselves"...it was cocobollo..." when we read that post.   

I ALWAYS rub coco down with acetone to remove the oils otherwise I ALWAYS got fogging to blisters.


----------



## manatee

+1 for blo and ca.  BLO acts as an accelerator. Here is how I learned to apply it:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orcgOf4siqc
I have never had a problem using this method!


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## ed4copies

This is NOT meant as argumentative, but I also have used BLO (Boiled Linseed Oil) for many months.  THEN, one group of pens "bloomed" (got white spots) a couple weeks after they were made.  So, now I use BLO on the wood to pull the grain, and BLO for the first couple coats of thin CA, then change to medium CA and accelerator (both EZ Bond).

I am NOT 100% in my CA finishes, but FOR ME this has been successful probably 85% of the time.

(Have I mentioned lately, I am a "RESINATOR"!!!!!   In a quote I have not seen for a long time, "Wood is good, Plastic is fantastic"!!!----YoYo Spin!!)

FWIW


----------



## wiset1

Monty said:


> Tim,
> One thing I forgot to ask, are you using the regular or mild accelerator. If you're not sure, the regular in in a frosted looking bottle with a white cap and the mild is a clear bottle with a black cap.


 
Monty,

It had a white cap on both of them.  Would that make a difference?


----------



## Monty

wiset1 said:


> Monty said:
> 
> 
> 
> Tim,
> One thing I forgot to ask, are you using the regular or mild accelerator. If you're not sure, the regular in in a frosted looking bottle with a white cap and the mild is a clear bottle with a black cap.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Monty,
> 
> It had a white cap on both of them.  Would that make a difference?
Click to expand...

Shouldn't make any difference. It's just I've always used the regular (white cap) and wanted to make sure I used the same as you when I try to duplicate your problem. 
Most people use the regular on pens but a few prefer the mild for whatever reason. The difference is the the regular is acetone based and will melt some plastics (don't ever put regular accelerator in the spray bottle in place of mild) while the mild is heptane based and will not melt plastic.


----------



## IPD_Mrs

wiset1 said:


> Terry,
> 
> I've only ever used PSI brand CA until I purchased the E-Z bond glues. I really liked the finish I got from the E-Z bond, but the mixture of the accelerator posed a problem. Now I'm just doing a layer of CA and letting it air dry before doing another layer.
> 
> Truth be told, this was a minor issue and I thought asking for help in the forum would help resolve the matter. At this point the feedback has become bloated and taken on a life of its own which makes me think twice about posting here again.
> 
> I serve my country proudly while being stationed overseas and turning pens is a way to keep focus on the mission when I make it back to work. Pulling hair and scratching eyes on an open forum about hurt feelings is something I can do without so I'm thinking it's best to resolve matters through PM's and keep my pens to myself.


 

First, Thank you for your service!!   We also use the EZ-Bond CA.  However, we do cross the Zip Kicker (Zap Brand) accelerator with no problem.  Cocobolo is a difficult wood as you mentioned before and if you were having really high humidity where you are stationed that too will have an affect on the finish sometimes.  Standing too close and getting too much spray as someone else mentioned has been known to be an issue at times.  

As for your feelings about not posting again and only using the PM system, I sincerely hope that you will reconsider that.  YOU are not responsible for another person's actions or reactions as I am certain you are aware.  Take it with a grain of salt, garner the information from it that helps you to improve your pens and finishes.  Like others have said, we all learn from one another and we can't do so if no one posts the problems they have as well as the successes they enjoy.  

_Mrs._


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## ctubbs

Tim I am glad you brought this out and feel for you with the piling on you received.  The only reason that I did not join is my tardy start on this thread.  Your experience with CA just goes to reinforce the mystery of CA.  I thought I had suffered every imaginable problem with that horrid stuff, but you found a different one.  It didn't even set up on your skin!  WOW!  I never heard of such a thing.  That stuff always sets on contact with skin.  Please do not quit posting to IAP.  I truly enjoy your work.  This is an important situation we all need to have resolved.  Whatever the problem, it faces us all that use CA for a finish.  Ed and Monty are working on a solution.  They both offer excellent customer service.  Great people both.  Just hang in there, if there is a solution to this problem, they will come up with it.
Have fun and don't get stuck to the project with CA.  And thank you for the service you and your fellow soldiers are preforming.
Charles


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## jttheclockman

I say to really resolve the issue. Send both items back to Monty and he will send a fresh new set and he can play with this stuff to determine if something was a bad batch. Maybe also send him a sample of the wood used. In return he sends the fresh CA and something else for your troubles. Case closed. When he has his findings he will report back. Seems fair to me and this back and forth would not go on. Just my 2¢  Wait don't I get change


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## wiset1

I would kindly ask that people let this go, I'm already working with Monty and Ed to resolve this and while the suggestions are welcome we need to move on to other matters.

Thank you for all the feedback...


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## bruce119

wiset1 said:


> Okay, step by step
> 
> -Blank is on the lathe and already sanded to grit.
> -Using a VS lathe I had it turned down to the lowest setting
> -Using a single piece of folded papertowel I applied a layer thin CA
> -I always allow this first layer of CA to air dry
> -30 minutes later I followed the same steps, but used Medium E-Z bond CA
> -With the lathe on at the lowest speed *I spray the accelerator about 3 squirts*
> -At this time I notice the *Cocobolo* blank fogging over
> -I turn off the lathe and touch the blank to see what the problem is
> -I pull my finger free of the blank and notice that the blank is tacky
> 
> This is the basic steps. It should also be noted that I had just finished 3 pens using the same method without issue when using the Medium CA and the PSI accelerator. The issue happened when I moved over to the E-Z bond brand accelerator. I have no idea where the problem is and I'm sure it's something minor that will be resolved in time. Those of you who know me and have seen my pens know that I have a firm grasp on how to do a CA finish so this was odd for me to see.


 
As was what said COCOBOLO a very oily problematic wood. Now I didn't read all the post till hear the thread is getting kind of long so I am sure it was addressed but I will give my way I do it.

First off Cocobolo is very oily after turning & sanding I wipe down the blank with acetone. I will wipe it down at least 3 times with a soaked paper towel with acetone. You will see the oils cleaning out of the surface your first pass the paper towel will be very dirty and dark with the oil I wipe till it is just about clean. Let it dry a minute or 2 not too long the oil will seep back up to the surface of the wood. Now I start my CA process I don't use paper towel any more I think it gives you more (other) problems. I use thin foam (such as that used to protect electronics) as an applicator A piece of plastic would work also wear gloves. I don't use paper towel because it acts an an accelerator and can cause all kinds of problems (but not what you are experiencing). 

I use thick CA but medium would work. With the lathe running slow I apply the ca as a bead across the blank onto and in-between the foam or plastic applicator. Now I work that back an forth real fast across the blank making a thin layer then stop and remove the applicator before it starts to set That's a little tricky). Now I give it a real fast spritz of accelerator about 12" away and 6 inches above and let the accelerator lightly settle on the blank. It takes about 15 seconds to set. Then I do it again 8 times then wet sand and finish.

Now my thoughts on your problem without being there just guess work. First thought is your using too much accelerator just one very fine mist. Just the fumes of accelerator near an open bottle of CA will shorten it's life significantly always cap your CA before you spray. Did I say accelerator is potent a little goes a long, long, long way. Now use used thin CA for the first coat I would guess a fair amount also and let it soak into the wood (Cocobolo). Now you apply your medium and then spray on the accl. 3 squirts now I think the accelerator is working through the second coat of CA you just applied down to the first that is soaked into the oily wood and reacting with that causing it to soften. Now the oil from the wood is interacted with the CA and it will not set.

Something to test take some CA on anything you don't care about. Put a drop on accl. on it will it is wet touch it you will see the CA has soften. Also if you don't disturb the spot when it does dry it will most likely leave that white powdery spot.

Now try this take your Cocobolo (for that matter I do EVERY wood the same way) and wipe it down throughly with acetone. Let it dry it will dry fast it will feel cold as it dries don't wait too long. Then start your CA I would just start with the medium as I described above.

Another thing you guys should never do is store your accelerator near your CA. Just the fumes from accl. will shorten your CA life.

Well that's enough for now this is turning into a book everyone is different.

Bruce


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## GaryMGg

Cocobolo is an oil wood which many times has a high moisture content internally while appearing dry externally.
Moreover, I expect turning Coco creates heat in the oil which further exacerbates the moisture problem.
I've had CA fogging with Coco when nothing else did using Monty's CA.
My solution has been to turn a Coco blank, get it ready for finishing, then leave it sit
for a day or two to allow the temps and moisture to return to my local environmental conditions.
YMMV.
*NB: When you buy from Ed, you buy from a service-oriented vendor who stands behind you to support your business.*


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## wiset1

I'll try and express this again..."*The lower barrel of the pen finished fine and looked like glass when finished, but I ran out of the PSI accelerator I originaly use.  I started to finish the pen cap and used the E-Z bond accelerator with the SAME E-Z bond Medium CA glue used for the barrel and the problem occured.  I did everything the same as 50 pens before it and the only thing that changed was the product line of accelerator.*"  As noted before, Ed, Monty and I are working to figure this out.  I've turned a couple pens from the same batch of Cocobolo and never had an issue so I can't see this being the issue not to mention that the lower barrel glassed fine.  For the most part I think this has been covered in the posts here and that is why it has become such a head scratcher.


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## Wildman

I have a different take on this issue.  Can honestly say do not care how many times you performed the same procedure or technique, wood will find a way to humble you. Why, no two pieces of wood are the same! 

You can what if all you want too. Just remember if frogs had wings would not bump their ass every time they hop!

So take a step back and try a different method!


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## wiset1

I've asked the moderators of this forum to close the thread so with any luck they will honor the request and put this beast to rest.  If they choose not to close the thread I'm sure it will go on without me...

Best wishes to ALL and thank you for your time regarding this matter.


----------



## wiset1

Wildman said:


> I have a different take on this issue. Can honestly say do not care how many times you performed the same procedure or technique, wood will find a way to humble you. Why, *no two pieces of wood are the same!*
> 
> You can what if all you want too. Just remember if frogs had wings would not bump their ass every time they hop!
> 
> So take a step back and try a different method!


 
But this WAS the same piece of wood...

Okay...I'm not going to post again.  This thread has been shot, killed, brought back to life, killed again, and still rolls on...let it go


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## jttheclockman

wiset1 said:


> Wildman said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have a different take on this issue. Can honestly say do not care how many times you performed the same procedure or technique, wood will find a way to humble you. Why, *no two pieces of wood are the same!*
> 
> You can what if all you want too. Just remember if frogs had wings would not bump their ass every time they hop!
> 
> So take a step back and try a different method!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But this WAS the same piece of wood...
> 
> Okay...I'm not going to post again. This thread has been shot, killed, brought back to life, killed again, and still rolls on...let it go
Click to expand...

 


Hey Tim relax. You were the one who brought it to the attention of the forum. Not everyone comes on line at the same time. There are some good thoughts that may also help others. You 3 can work it out till the cows come home but the truth be told unless one of them have the exact same material with the exact sme CA and spray they will never know. It could be something as simple a mixup in the batch of spray or a bad batch of CA. Duplicating the same results may not be possible. I did not read all the posts but did you try to duplicate the same happenings again and if you were able then there is a problem and let Monty look at it. Send the stuff to Monty. 

If you don't want to read any more than skip this thread and move on.


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## turff49

Only time anything can be duplicated is in a lab under a controlled environment. Second, oil content in wood can be excessive in some areas, it depends on the cell fibers and various other properties. My scientific guess is it could be a combination of the oils, the temp of the wood( you let it set 30 minutes) minute condensation possibly if it was cold, and possibly any impurities that could've settled on the blank that were floating around in the air.
Now, for thinking everyone else should let it die and not respond, well you brought it to a forum. It's a problem you experienced with a product almost all of us use, so we as a forum want that problem solved. The beauty of a forum is the diversity of it's members.


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## Daniel

Your problem is Cocobolo and the oils that are in it. best cure is wiping the blank down with denatured alcohol before applying CA. does not always work but that has been what works best for me. CA does not like oils. not even those from you hands. think you can touch a blank and not leave oil? try touching a mirror and get the same results. otherwise you are just kidding yourself. Cocobolo is horrible about fogging up and yes it is a random blank that does it.


----------



## bruce119

Hey Daniel good to see you I sure miss your group buys 

Yes threads like these are good for the forum in that someone else could pick something up from in it. I described my method that works great for me. This is how I discovered it from a thread like this reading it tried it and had a Ahh-haa moment that changed everything. I struggled for a year with CA and BLO then read about the thin foam applicator thick CA and very light mist of accelerator. I went back and refinished all my pens from the previous 2 years.

So you never know who is going to benefit from a thread like this. And the title you gave it IS going to draw a LOT of attention. 

Look at it as a good thing someone is bond to learn something. 

Tim when you get it figured out or a least get something to work come back and let us know.:biggrin:

Bruce


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## Russianwolf

Hey Tim,
    Don't worry about the thread still going, we are all looking to help and to learn from the experience (one, the other, or both).

I know you are frustrated and thinking that if it worked on half and not on the other half then the only item changed (the accel) must be bad. But that doesn't mean it's bad, just different. The chemical make-up of the two accels could be just slightly different and mean that you have to change your technique slightly to adjust for that difference. 

The problem with wood is each piece is a variable in itself also. Moisture contents, oil content, grain, density, and other things can vary from piece to piece and even in different areas of the same piece. It's a natural material and far from "perfect" in composition, That's one of the reasons people love working with wood so much, the challenge. Woodworkers are problem solvers by nature since each piece will have its own reasons why the 'plan" won't work this time like it did last time. 

Be patient. There is a vast reservoir of experience here (even from those that have abandoned a technique, like myself in this instance). 

Hopefully Monty will figure out what is happening in your case, but you may want to try the techniques others have offered in the mean time to see if they make the process work for you again.


----------



## ed4copies

I am fairly confident that the "offending party" here is the spritzer on the accelerant.  I suspect you are getting larger "droplets" to hit the blank.  Could be too close to the mandrel when you are spraying, or could be the "spritzer" is not inhaling enough air and sending off too much liquid.  Did you, by chance, use the same "spray top" on both tries?

Not that it is definitive---we could have TWO spray tops that don't spray right, too.  

But all the entries on this thread got us to this point, Tim.  So, please don't take offense when many folks are TRYING to help.   SOME don't read every entry, before commenting.  Others are not really commenting on your specific problem, just giving their thoughts on the CA issues they have encountered.

But NO one is trying to offend you or your methods---we've all ruined a pen or two.  Personally, I believe Andy's 55 gallon drum of rejects merely is strong evidence that he does not turn often enough to generate MORE "practice pieces".  We all learn from others' mishaps.


----------



## Polarys425

After reading his play by play on finishing method, i have but one thing to bring to light that looks to be overlooked.

What brand of THIN CA is used on the first coat? Could the clouding be a reaction from the thin CA and the accelerator and not from the medium?


----------



## ed4copies

Thanks Kevin!!!
That IS another possibility worthy of investigation!!


----------



## BKelley

We never know what chemicals a piece of wood has been subjected to.  The tree may have had some sort of chemical used on it, after it was cut somthing may have spilled on the lumber, during shipping from point of orgin anything could have contaminated the wood.  Could this perhaps be the problem?


----------



## jimofsanston

I had the same problem with Cocobolo as you did, but I was using Woodcrafts CA and aerosol accelerator. I ended up putting it in the microwave and drying it till I did not get any more moisture out of it. It worked with no clouding or ghosting. You may want to try that.


----------



## EBorraga

Well after 86 posts I've determined the true problem. You weren't wearing your yellow socks and doing the Magic CA Vodoo War chant.


----------



## witz1976

EBorraga said:


> Well after 86 posts I've determined the true problem. You weren't wearing your yellow socks and doing the Magic CA Vodoo War chant.


:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin: LOL:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:


----------



## ctubbs

I was waiting for that response.  Terribly surprised it took this long.  I almost used it way back but the thread was going so strong that even I resisted.  Thanks for bringing us back to Earth.
Charles


----------



## PAPenman

wiset1 said:


> I'll try and express this again..."*The lower barrel of the pen finished fine and looked like glass when finished, but I ran out of the PSI accelerator I originaly use.  I started to finish the pen cap and used the E-Z bond accelerator with the SAME E-Z bond Medium CA glue used for the barrel and the problem occured.  I did everything the same as 50 pens before it and the only thing that changed was the product line of accelerator.*"  As noted before, Ed, Monty and I are working to figure this out.  I've turned a couple pens from the same batch of Cocobolo and never had an issue so I can't see this being the issue not to mention that the lower barrel glassed fine.  For the most part I think this has been covered in the posts here and that is why it has become such a head scratcher.


Were both blanks on the same mandrel while finishing? Possibly over spray contamination?


----------



## Polarys425

PAPenman said:


> wiset1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'll try and express this again..."*The lower barrel of the pen finished fine and looked like glass when finished, but I ran out of the PSI accelerator I originaly use. I started to finish the pen cap and used the E-Z bond accelerator with the SAME E-Z bond Medium CA glue used for the barrel and the problem occured. I did everything the same as 50 pens before it and the only thing that changed was the product line of accelerator.*" As noted before, Ed, Monty and I are working to figure this out. I've turned a couple pens from the same batch of Cocobolo and never had an issue so I can't see this being the issue not to mention that the lower barrel glassed fine. For the most part I think this has been covered in the posts here and that is why it has become such a head scratcher.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Were both blanks on the same mandrel while finishing? Possibly over spray contamination?
Click to expand...

 
Hes already stated that it was sanded back down to bare wood, and it did the same thing again. If it were overspray contamination, that would have been eliminated when he snaded and refinished.

At this point i believe they are looking into whether the initial coat of thin CA applied before the medium is somehow reacting when the first coat of medium and accelerator are applied.


----------



## tbroye

I have use the Ezbond CA thick, thin, med and the EzBond pump accelerator and even after using a spray accelerator from Woodcraft and have never had a problem.  It will be interesting to hear what issue was.  Could it be the wood?


----------



## Monty

I followed Tim's steps and the CA did not cloud up. 
I went back over the blank again and literally flooded it with medium CA  followed by 5-7 sprays of accelerator and the CA turned hard almost  instantly, no clouding. 
I did try one other thing. I places a puddle of medium CA on a piece of  plastic and sprayed it with accelerator. The CA hardened over and shrank  slightly causing the liquid CA underneath to squeeze out. This took a  little longer to harden but did not turn cloudy.
At this point, I'm at a loss as to what caused your problem. The only  thing I've encountered in the past that caused CA to dry cloudy is moisture.


----------

