# Damaging  Cap Threads



## johncrane (Jun 7, 2008)

l was just wanting too know if any one else has had any problems with there JR series F/P plastic cap threads scratching or cutting into the rhodium plated finger grip, l noticed this happening awhile ago so l have been taking more care when removing and replacing the cap, The pen is also my everyday user which shouldn't be a problem you would think. Anyway Rhodium is said to have a five star wear resisting rating if so l would not of thought plastic threads would cut into a Rhodium plating. Maybe l just got a bad kit,l will also send a email too the supplier just to let them know, lam hopeful it's not a common problem, as l have sold a few and l also like the kit.


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## mrcook4570 (Jun 7, 2008)

I have seen this on many jrs - rhodium, ti gold, and black ti.


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## el_d (Jun 7, 2008)

The threading has been cuttng into the Black Ti plating on my Jr Gent II rollerball also. Its my everyday user so I thought it was me. Would be interested to know if that was under warranty from CSUSA.


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## rlharding (Jun 7, 2008)

There was a thread about this last week. There didn't seem to be a solution.


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## redfishsc (Jun 7, 2008)

> _Originally posted by johncrane_
> 
> l was just wanting too know if any one else has had any problems with there JR series F/P plastic cap threads scratching or cutting into the rhodium plated finger grip, l noticed this happening awhile ago so l have been taking more care when removing and replacing the cap, The pen is also my everyday user which shouldn't be a problem you would think. Anyway Rhodium is said to have a five star wear resisting rating if so l would not of thought plastic threads would cut into a Rhodium plating. Maybe l just got a bad kit,l will also send a email too the supplier just to let them know, lam hopeful it's not a common problem, as l have sold a few and l also like the kit.





YES I HAVE and it's yet another problem with yet another CSA kit. If it weren't for the Zen I personally wouldn't be buying squat from them.


My own personal Jr Gent is a black Ti that has this exact problem and I also thought I was just the only one, but obviously not. 



Make the switch to the Baron/Sedona from Arizona Silhouette. It's a much more reliable pen.


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## johncrane (Jun 7, 2008)

So it looks like lam not the only one standing out in the cold.Ruth l didn't see the other thread can you point me in the right direction thank you.l had though the Baron/Sedona and Jr came from the same factory.Also l would like to know what threads are in the Baron caps if some one could help out here it would be good.Well now lam not too sure which way too jump! best we get some more feed back and then l will email the supplier,
this is now a big worry for me thinking about how many customers will be disappointed


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## Texatdurango (Jun 7, 2008)

I want to see photos of these pens showing all the damage the threads are doing to the nib holders!

It's easy to sit back and say anything you want to about a particular kit and sadly, many times the rant or bash ends with a promotion of another kit/vendor which makes me wonder about the validity of the complaint.  I'm sure there is the odd pen that has problems now and then, you can't make 50,000 pens and have every one turn out perfect but these threads seem to bring out the dog pile mentality with everyone all of a sudden having problems.

So let's post some photos to see what is being discussed, I have yet to see a damaged nib holder!

I'll start.  Below are two Jr Gents, I didn't think the segmented pen was fit for sale so it became mine, the other was a pen I received in a pen swap last summer.  When I leave the house both of these pens are in my pocket and have been for almost a year now.  When they are not in my pocket they are on my desk being used... everyday.

The fountain pen must have been opened and closed a thousand times and the rollerball just about as much and neither show any wear let alone any damage.

The Jr Gent is one of my best sellers and I have never had a complaint from any customers or friends that I have given them to but have received several repeat orders so some people are having good luck with them!

A picture is worth a thousand words so here are my Jr Gent "daily users"


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## rlharding (Jun 7, 2008)

here is the link:
http://www.penturners.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=37769
My pen is the Jr majestic.  I got it from woodturningz and they, in turn, got it from PSI. I did email PSI but I have never had them respond to any email I have sent over the past couple of years. These are serious marks, not something that looks like a smudge that could have been put there during the process.

It would be nice if we could use our numbers to approach manufacturers to improve the quality of the product.


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## Randy_ (Jun 7, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Texatdurango_
> 
> I want to see photos of these pens showing all the damage the threads are doing to the nib holders.....



There are quite a few pictures in the referenced thread.  Maybe you missed it??


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## johncrane (Jun 7, 2008)

George!thank you for your impute lt makes me breathe a easier as l do really like this kit! l also know that if a manufacture is making thousands of parts every day there will be a few hiccups here and there,maybe l have one of them,at the moment lam not really worried about my pen its the pens l have sold that worries me  also l will go and visit my customers kind off a follow up service as they are my main reason for me doing this. l also think our supplier needs to have some positive feed back as they are not the makers only the sellers like us! And l think our fourm could help them, l have no intention too bash them.Also With the photos, l think we only need too see photos of the finger grips.


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## OKLAHOMAN (Jun 8, 2008)

Ruth, the products in the thread you gave a link to are not from CSUSA, your Mejestic is Penn State and Marks Baron is from Arizona Silhouette so redfishsc's comment about craft supply usa is out of line in my mind. As George said I also have sold many Jr. Gents and Jr. Statemen and have not had a single one returned because of scratches or pitting. I'm sure there are cases of pitting  and most likely all from a bad batch. In manufacturing this will happen at times but because a Toyota has a recall because of a potential fire in the starter dose not make all Toyotas crap as Redfishsc seems to think of CSUSA. I guess Mark Liggett could say the same about Arizona Silhouette or Ruth Penn State at times they all have plating problems folks these are not rocket ships they'er pen components.  




> _Originally posted by rlharding_
> 
> here is the link:
> http://www.penturners.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=37769
> ...


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## johncrane (Jun 8, 2008)

Thanks Randy!and Ruth l just read the other thread sorry l did mis it, Marks pen is what's going on with mine.my thought's are now!is that these threads must be too sharp!on all my pens l remove the sharp edge on the brass tubes before fitting the pen parts so it's not the brass tube.


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## Texatdurango (Jun 8, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Randy__
> 
> 
> 
> ...


First, I'm not responding to posts made in another thread, I am responding to the posts in THIS thread where the people are talking about damage to Jr Gent pens, something I have never seen after dealing with hundreds of them and using two every single day.  

I didn't even read the other thread until your comment but after reading it I've got to ask, where are you coming up with _"There are quite a few pictures"_?  I saw one post where the member took two photos of a Baron from different angles then the post got copied so four photos (two duplicates) of the same pen.  That constitutes quite a few?  No, I don't think I missed a thing!

What bothers me is that some members jump on these threads bashing a particular kit or a particular vendor and exaggerations start as the thread continues.  Some people reading these threads take these claims as gospel regardless if they are founded claims or not especially when the dog pile starts and it looks like the Jr Gent is the kit from hell and that is simply NOT the case!

I had a member email me this evening second guessing his decision and rethinking his order for a few Jr Gent pens in a group buy because he was afraid they were no good and THIS thread is what he referenced!

Thatâ€™s the kind of damage that can be caused by frivolous posting!  I say again, letâ€™s see photos!


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## marcruby (Jun 8, 2008)

The pictures on that thread are of a baron, and the pen at issue here is a majestic.  I'm not sure how cpusa even got drawn into this rant.  In any case, I've never cared much for PSI's quality.  BUT, I've never had a problem with pens from any of these vendors.  And the damage doesn't really look like it was caused by the threads anyway.  It look more like the cap came loose in a pocket and metal parts rubbed together.



> There are quite a few pictures in the referenced thread.  Maybe you missed it??


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## Texatdurango (Jun 8, 2008)

> _Originally posted by johncrane_
> 
> Thanks Randy!and Ruth l just read the other thread sorry l did mis it, Marks pen is what's going on with mine.my thought's are now!is that these threads must be too sharp!on all my pens l remove the sharp edge on the brass tubes before fitting the pen parts so it's not the brass tube.


John, Do what you want but if it were me, I would relax.  Seems like all the DAMAGE is pretty wide spread over all the kits so far.  From the one photo I have seen, I really have to agree with Lou, in that I don't see how threads will scratch the nib that far up the nib. 

Here's something to try, grab a pen right now and screw the cap onto the pen.  Did you start rotating the cap long before engaging the lower threads, NO, you generally start rotating the cap once you feel contact with the lower threads right?  Then why are there circular swirls half way up the nib... long before you started turning the cap?  I think the answer is not the plastic threads causing the marks.

I don't have the answer, all I know is what my own eyes see and that doesn't worry me a bit.


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## johncrane (Jun 8, 2008)

Roy l think your right just a bad batch! now the best thing we can do is let the our supplier know,by email or what ever, if there is someone with the same problem in the States and lives near by they could show supplier bad parts this would be better than a email, now l would stress this is not about bashing our supplier they have been fantastic for the IAP over many years.


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## sparhawk (Jun 8, 2008)

I had a round top european that was doing this and found it was the brass tube on the cap had an edge . Filed down the inside of the brass tube a bit and no more problem.


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## Randy_ (Jun 8, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Texatdurango_
> 
> .....I didn't even read the other thread until your comment but after reading it I've got to ask, where are you coming up with _"There are quite a few pictures"_.....



George is correct. I was relying on my memory of a thread I read a week ago and there were not as many pictures as I remembered.....and the pictures were of a Baron.  However, Rudy said the pictured marks were similar to marks he had seen on CSUSA Retro and Jr. Statesman pens.  

Additionally, John, Stan, Lupe, redfishsc and Rudy have all posted here or in the prior thread that they have seen this problem in their own pens so it is pretty certain that a problem really does exist with these CSUSA kits even if we don't have pictures to prove it. 

Whether this is a design problem, defective plating, operator error, or something else is yet to be resolved; but it seems to me that the more we "encourage" people to post about problems they run across, the more information we will collect in the search for the answers.


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## johncrane (Jun 8, 2008)

Thanks George!l know lam a bit heavy handed at times and l hope it just me, l tried what you said to do, and you are right but l suspect it is happening when l remove the cap, and giving the cap maybe half a turn or more after the threads have disengage from the cap, if your not watching what your doing that extra half turn not being centered could rub the threads over the grip and cause the marks if this is the case it maybe a user problem! l think we are onto some think here George!! l will change the part over get a Magnifier glass with a light too make sure there's no nicks in the center ring or any thing that might be a causing this problem  now if this turns out too be right we may have pin pointed when it's happening.  l won't hold my breath tho


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## Randy_ (Jun 8, 2008)

I always believe that one of the first steps in a discussion of this nature should be an email to the manufacturer(distributor).

In that vein, I have sent Eric a link to this thread and asked him for any comments he would care to make on behalf of CSUSA.


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## Randy_ (Jun 8, 2008)

> _Originally posted by rlharding_
> 
> .....My pen is the Jr majestic.  I got it from woodturningz and they, in turn, got it from PSI. I did email PSI but I have never had them respond to any email I have sent over the past couple of years......



Ruth:  Emails do get lost on occasion......especially with bigger  companies that have a large volume of traffic.

I always send a follow-up email (and identify it as such) if I don't get a response to a first email within a reasonable time frame..... maybe 10 days to two weeks at the outside.  And you might consider a call to their technical service people who are pretty easy to get in touch with; but sometimes a little difficult to communicate with.  In this case, I would also contact Woodturningz about your Majestic problem.   

If PSI continues to ignore your emails, send them one last message letting them know that you are changing vendors and won't be sending anymore money their way!!



> It would be nice if we could use our numbers to approach manufacturers to improve the quality of the product.



I agree that would be nice; but I suspect the active membership of IAP is a fairly small part of the customer base of the big pen companies and they don't need to pay as much attention to us as we would like.


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## johncrane (Jun 8, 2008)

Ok this is the pen l have talking about after my last posting l decided too pull the pen apart and try too figure out what's going l also took these photos to show, it is clear to me now this pen has some real problems, the center threads are showing plating problems l had missed seeing that as l was more concerned about the grip.


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## Texatdurango (Jun 8, 2008)

John, we'll get to the bottom of this yet!

The plot thickens....

I'm writing with my home made fountain pen this morning when I noticed something so decided to post my thoughts.

The more I think about this problem, the less I think it's a manufacturing fault and more a users fault.  The photo below is a "home built".  It uses a nib from a Ligero kit and the cap is all acrylic.  While the nib isn't metal, it does show similar circular scratch patterns as some of the photos shown in this and another thread.

What is interesting are the dimensions of the nib and cap.  You will note that the cap threads are .450" dia. and the rest of the cap is 7/16" or .437" and all smooth plastic, nothing else is in there to cause scratching.  That leaves plenty of clearance for the nib to enter the cap without anything cutting anything.  Please note the curved shape of the nib, the center area where the scratchs occur is .387 diameter.

How does the cap leave these marks when the threads are .450 dia and the center of the nib is .387 AND it's the narrowest part of the nib.  If the threads were doing this, you would think the widest part of the nib would be damaged but it's not, only the center, narrow section.

As stated earlier, I don't have the answer, but I sure as heck would rather find out what's causing this rather than jumping on the forum saying Craft Supply sucks and has bad pens or plating problems and will their warranty cover this type of damage.  That thinking gets us nowhere and I think we should shift from blame and focus on solving the problem, after all, we are a bunch of sharp pen makers right?

Here is my pen, look at the dimensions then look at the similar scratch marks and think about what you see and lets come up with some thoughts as to what is causing this.  By the way, this was one of my junkers, is only a few months old and was put in a pen rack and rotated with my other fountain pens so hasn't seen that much use so I was surprised to see the marks.


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## redfishsc (Jun 8, 2008)

> _Originally posted by OKLAHOMAN_
> 
> Ruth, the products in the thread you gave a link to are not from CSUSA, your Mejestic is Penn State




&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;Roy, this post may sound like a bickering contest, but it's not intended to be-- just a good discussion&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;

The reseller isn't the source, but they ARE the ones who I am buying from. I'd wager that the Jr. Majestic that I have is made by the same company (maybe Dayacom?) that makes the Jr. Gent-- the nib ends compare identical when placed side by side. The nib holders will fit back and forth as if they were clones. I have a Jr. Majestic that I use frequently but does not show the nib damage as his pic does, but I do have a Jr. Gent that has the same damage. Dayacom does not list the Jr. Majestic on their site but that doesn't really mean anything.




> redfishsc's comment about craft supply usa is out of line in my mind.



My comments are only an opinion and based on a rather dismal track record I've had with CSA pens over the past year and a half. Instruction manuals giving the wrong drill sizes, rhodium and ti-gold pitting like crazy, Americana FP/RB snap mechanisms breaking, a defective nib on an Imperial, center bands that are loose and free-wheel on Emperors and Gents, just to name the more irritating ones. 

I don't have the time to make a pen, then send it back for a refund. I know that CSA does not "make" their kits, they are a reseller from some overseas operation, but they also don't have to sell things that they know good and well are faulty- and don't assume they are not aware of this--- I have sent them close to a dozen pens mostly for plating issues. I called them about the defective nib (the post where the ink cartridge plugs into was deformed) and they promptly replaced it. I have suggested to them the errors in a couple of their instruction sheets, and I think they have corrected a couple of them, but since I now routinely ignore their drill recommendations I can't say they've fixed them all. I've even had them admit on the phone to me that the Americana RB/FP has an "outdated" cap mechanism yet have no plans to alter it. 






> As George said I also have sold many Jr. Gents and Jr. Statemen and have not had a single one returned because of scratches or pitting.



Same here. But the problem isn't people returning pens, it's that I don't want my customers getting a pen that pits or gets some other sort of design-induced damage, making me look like someone who makes cheapo pens that look good for a season.



> I'm sure there are cases of pitting  and most likely all from a bad batch. In manufacturing this will happen at times but because a Toyota has a recall because of a potential fire in the starter dose not make all Toyotas crap as Redfishsc seems to think of CSUSA.




If, like CSA, I had to return close to 25% of the kits I bought from them in the fountain/rollerball class, Toyota _would_ be crap (I love Toyota for this very reason, they make a great product).  

I will not write off an entire company unless I have a very good reason to, and for the moment the only pen that CSA makes that I really like (and can't get elsewhere) is the Zen. It seems to be a very good product and I buy it from them.

Meanwhile Berea continues to make a few lousy products but I have nearly never had a problem with their Baron, Sedona, and such. Churchills/ElGrandes are a different story and I refuse to buy those.


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## Texatdurango (Jun 8, 2008)

> _Originally posted by redfishsc_
> 
> &lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;Roy, this post may sound like a bickering contest, but it's not intended to be-- just a good discussion&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;


This is what you call a good discussion?

_YES I HAVE and it's yet another problem with yet another CSA kit. If it weren't for the Zen I personally wouldn't be buying squat from them.

My own personal Jr Gent is a black Ti that has this exact problem and I also thought I was just the only one, but obviously not. 

*Make the switch to the Baron/Sedona from Arizona Silhouette. It's a much more reliable pen*._

Sounds more like promoting one vendor over another to me rather than discussing the problem or trying to figure out the solution!


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## redfishsc (Jun 8, 2008)

If you are suggesting that I have some stake in "converting" people to your apparent nemesis over at Arizona Silhouette, you are mistaken. If Beartooth sold them, I'd buy them from him too. 


If you want a good discussion on this issue, stop attacking my character  (here in the forum or in private emails). I don't have time for either. Like I told you before, if you want a spitting contest find yourself another opponent.


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## Texatdurango (Jun 8, 2008)

Matt I don't want a discussion with you, I just don't care for your vendor and kit attacks especially since you have no factual data to back up your position, just an attitude!  If you have a valid complaint, fine, post away but to post just to badmouth a vendor adds nothing to the thread, and that's all you have done so far.  

This thread was started about the Jr Gent pen, call me crazy but... _"Make the switch to the Baron/Sedona from Arizona Silhouette. It's a much more reliable pen" _ sure looked like you were trying to sway people towards a "reliable" pen as if the Jr Gent wasn't!  Am I reading this wrong?

Find a camera, I'd sure like to see your daily user with all it's damage?


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## redfishsc (Jun 8, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Texatdurango_
> 
> Matt I don't want a discussion with you



Then why the continued attacks? Have mercy, man, calm down. Yes I have gripes with the Jr Gent, but I suppose it's much more helpful for you to attack a fellow penmaker than it is for me to vent about a product I'm not all that happy about? 

This is the last response I'm posting. I've already wasted enough time wallowing in the mud.


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## Texatdurango (Jun 8, 2008)

> _Originally posted by redfishsc_
> 
> ... Then why the continued attacks? Have mercy, man, calm down. Yes I have gripes with the Jr Gent, but I suppose it's much more helpful for you to attack a fellow penmaker than it is for me to vent about a product I'm not all that happy about?...


Attacks?  You come on here bashing Craft Supply with no good cause then when called out on it you act like the poor innocent victim of multiple attacks, good grief!... You're good at this![xx(]  But you're right, no sense in turning this thread into George VS Matt, I think I've made my point and I think the truth has come out.


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## el_d (Jun 9, 2008)

Anyway....More pics of the "imaginary problem"















 I have had this for about 6 months. I noticed the markings within the first month of use,I checked inside the cap to see if it had loose threadings or if there were small pieces of metel but saw nothing. I am very careful when handling my pen this is my show piece(one of Rodneys DI burl)It was put together very carefully(Expensive blank) and is still in very good condition other than the marking at the ends. I guess that plastic may cause scratches on Titanium but Im no expert. Everybody is entitled to there own opinion. I love CSUSA Jr. kits but dont like the looks of a Cigar.....


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## johncrane (Jun 9, 2008)

I agree George! finding the problem is the way too go forward with this.


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## gwilki (Jun 9, 2008)

I have an El Grande that was toast anyway, so taking George's pics as my target, I set out to scratch the section. Now, keep in mind the El Grande section is black plastic, not metal. I was able to scratch the narrowest part of the section by turning the cap, as if I was engaging the threads, but holding the cap a bit cockeyed. That way, the pen threads touched the section, and since they were at a pretty steep angle, and they were turning, they produced pretty strong scratches. FWIW


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## sbell111 (Jun 9, 2008)

I agree with Grant's assessment.  I believe that these scratches are caused by user error.  The user is clearly tilting the cap as he is placing it on or removing it, causing it to scratch the finish.  This could happen with any screw-cap pen from any manufacturer.


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## Texatdurango (Jun 9, 2008)

Wanting to get away from the rhetoric and focus on the problem and solution I started another thread in the pen turning forum.

Grant it looks like we were thinking the same thing!


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## gwilki (Jun 9, 2008)

Looks like, George. I piggy backed on your post in pen turning.


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## Rudy Vey (Jun 9, 2008)

My personal Retro's nib looks exactly the same, but the posting cap has no scratches. I liked Georges theory in the other thread he started, but I never screw my pen cap on in an angle. On the other hand, these markings are so distinct that I cannot believe it. If it came from an angled attempt to put the cap on, the scratches would be showing much more lines - this here and mine as well show only one single line! It is nearly impossible to always hit the same line!
This is just some food for thoughts. 



> _Originally posted by el_d_
> 
> Anyway....More pics of the "imaginary problem"
> 
> ...


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## redfishsc (Jun 9, 2008)

Rudy, do you ever carry the Retro in your pocket?


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## Rudy Vey (Jun 10, 2008)

I carry it in my shirt pocket all day long.



> _Originally posted by redfishsc_
> 
> Rudy, do you ever carry the Retro in your pocket?


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## Brewmeister35 (Jul 12, 2008)

Wow,  I can't believe I missed this thread and have been dealing with the same problem.  I made a Jr Gent and posted the pic here the beginning of June as my new daily writer.  I made this pen so I had something nice to show off when people at work asked me about my pens.  A friend of mine made one the same time and we've both been using them daily.  I noticed the marks over a week ago and his pen is the same.  I talked to CSU about it and sent the pens to them last week.  They called to say they did something and are returning my pens to me with a couple new kits but I have yet to hear what they discovered as to the cause.  These marks are the same pitch as the thread and the same length as well.  It is one continuous line and it's being cut into the plating of the nib holder as the cap is screwed on.  These were both Black Ti kits.  I wish I had measured where the scratches started from before sending them back to CSU.  I have my suspicions as to which part is causing this and I can't believe people are saying it's a user thing.  If it was, once the thread was started, the scratch wouldn't continue.  This one continues the length of the threads.  

Anyone hear anything as to the cause of this yet?  I'll surely post something when I hear back from CSU as to what they determined.  I definitely will not be buying or making any more of these until this problem is known to be fixed.


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## redfishsc (Jul 13, 2008)

All I've heard is what's in this thread. My personal Jr Gent II (black ti) FP is doing it, both on the cap and on the posting end. 


There have been a few Barons that were posted with about exactly the same problem, so if I had to guess anything it would be that some component in the threads was causing it. Perhaps the delrin threads have some sort of abrasive contaminant that was introduced when the delrin was produced? I dunno.


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