# Kitless Rollerball



## Laurenr

I have searched the IAP library for a tutorial on kitless rollerball, but have found nothing. Have I missed something?

If none is available, can any of you share with me your vast knowledge on the subject?

Lauren


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## Ed McDonnell

I can't think of much that would be needed for a roller ball specific tutorial. 

Not sure what drill bits to use?  Measure the roller ball refill and design from there.

Not sure why you need a spring?  Write with a roller ball until you understand.

Not sure how to design a roller ball pen?  Take one apart and study it.  Come up with a better design of your own or copy what you know works.

Ed


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## toddlajoie

I know that they make a rollerball that takes the ink cartridges used for fountain pens, that would make the pen very similar to make to the kitless FPs, As for not using them and using a standard RB refill, you will need to have sturdy and stable material, capable of having the small hole that the RB point sticks out of and turned down to close to that size, and be able to take the lateral stress from writing with it without cracking. (I'm guessing this is why most RB kits use metal for that end...)


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## Displaced Canadian

It's the same basic thing as making a fountain pen. You just need to pay more attention the the overall length of the pen. The front section will need to be step drilled to hold the refill in and you want the hole in the tip to be a close fit so the tip doesn't wobble when you write with it. When assembled the spring should be under a little bit of pressure. measure it out and draw it out on paper and it won't be that hard. Let us know how it goes.


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## Gumbercules563

Parklandturner, you were kinda harsh.  You sked a lot of questions, why did you not give any answers?


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## Ed McDonnell

Gumbercules563 said:


> Parklandturner, you were kinda harsh.  You sked a lot of questions, why did you not give any answers?



Hi John - Not sure what you think was harsh, but I accept that you do.  I'll make sure to use a very gentle tone in this response.

I did in fact ask questions, but I also provided very clear and direct answers to the first and third questions.  It's the parts after the question marks.  Maybe read them again.

The second question I asked got more of a "hint" response from me than a direct answer.  Part of learning how to make kitless pens is learning how to figure out how and why things work.  The spring in a rollerball confuses a lot of new penturners.  Some pen turners ultimately end up deciding that the spring is to give the pen a softer writing feel, maybe closer to a fountain with a flex nib (although there will be no comparison to the scripts written by each).  That's an adequate level of understanding for someone assembling kit pens.  All they need to know is the it won't work without the spring.

But to a kitless pen maker, the spring serves a very specific purpose and solves a large number of design challenges.  Someone following an ABC kitless tutorial will know to put the spring in the pen, but if they don't understand why, can they ever really advance as a pen maker?  (not wanting to ask you questions without answers, I'll tell you that my answer is "No, they can't advance without understanding.".)

Having read a number of posts from Lauren, it seems to me he is serious about advancing as a kitless pen maker.  In my opinion he has advanced to the point where he can take the training wheels off and fly without a tutorial.  And I will state again my response to him (not you or anybody else).  

I can't think of much that would be needed for a roller ball specific tutorial. 

If you find that harsh and unhelpful, then I'm sorry.  Hopefully Lauren saw things differently.

Ed


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## Bruce markwardt

The front nib section is the tricky bit, assuming you want to make your own  It needs to sized to fit the refill.  It needs to be thin enough to look right, yet thick enough that it won't crack if someone puts a lot of pressure on the refill.  The hole needs to be well centered.  An off center refill is really noticeable.

Like the front section of a fountain pen, I find the small parts to be the biggest challenge.


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## mredburn

As a hint.  Drill the larger holes for the refill from the back and leave enough to hold it and the drill the smaller hole from the front.  The smaller drill bit needed for the refill tip will wander and be off center if you dont.  Drilling it this way will help keep the tip centered.


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## david44

I have been through the business of the "first kitless"! My advice is to look at lots of photos of other peoples work, study a roller ball refill carefully (including measuring all the lengths and diameters of the different sections, think  about the spring (I ended up cutting down a little coil spring which I had in my shed), do a drawing --- and then have a go!  The way to learn is by making one - your errors are a great part of the process!

If you want see what I managed to make, I posted on the "Show off your pens" forum under the title "nothing ventured, nothing gained".

The pen I made isn't perfect but it works. I learned an awful lot. The next one will be better  - I have just about got back in my workshop after a knee replacement so plans are being made!


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## firewhatfire

I made this from corian countertop a while back to have a throw around pen for my shop


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## Laurenr

I might have mis-spoke when I asked for a tutorial. I think what I was looking for was for some of you to tell me drill sizes, etc., to save me some of the trouble during the learning process. But, as it turns out, I have learned more about kitless through trial and error, than from any tutorial. I make all of my resin blanks, so I can afford to ruin a few along the way. 

I thank you all for your advice. Harsh? Who's harsh? ;-) I'll show you harsh! You guys are the best.

Lauren


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## Haynie

Laurenr said:


> I have learned more about kitless through trial and error, than from any tutorial.
> 
> Lauren



This would be the best way to learn.  Read, try, read try, read try.


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## duncsuss

Disclaimer: I haven't tried this ... :biggrin:

We had a workshop with Kurt Hertzog last year, he demonstrated a technique he uses to make "nib units" for rollerballs and ballpoints out of corian.

Drill all the way through with at the smaller dimension (to allow the point to peek through), then follow up drilling the wider dimension (but leave it short). Sneak up on the fit by drilling a little more, testing with the refill, drilling a little more, testing ... until the angle of the nose of the refill transitions smoothly into the angle of your cone section.

Then for the body -- again, drill part way then sneak up on the correct depth. For a rollerball you might want to add a little extra depth and fit a spring into it.


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## avbill

Lauren:   there is one tutorial   its under references  by mredburn;

http://content.penturners.org/library/general_reference/taps_dies_kitless.pdf

that's the best I can help with:


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## jfr

can anybody make a refillable rolerball pen,please reply


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## Ed McDonnell

jfr said:


> can anybody make a refillable rolerball pen,please reply



Do you mean one where you take the old rollerball refill out and replace it with a new rollerball refill?  That's pretty much how everybody makes them.

Do you mean one where you can open up the rollerball refill and somehow get new / different ink in there?  I don't think you'll have much luck finding someone to help you with that.

Do you mean one where you have a rollerball point and use a fountain pen filling system (cartridge / converter / whatever) to supply ink?  It's pretty easy to convert a fountain pen to one of these, but the writing quality won't be the same as a fountain or even a good quality rollerball refill.  But you do get to choose your own brand / color of ink.

Or do you mean something else?

Ed


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## builtbybill

Ed McDonnell said:


> Gumbercules563 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Parklandturner, you were kinda harsh.  You sked a lot of questions, why did you not give any answers?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hi John - Not sure what you think was harsh, but I accept that you do.  I'll make sure to use a very gentle tone in this response.
> 
> I did in fact ask questions, but I also provided very clear and direct answers to the first and third questions.  It's the parts after the question marks.  Maybe read them again.
> 
> The second question I asked got more of a "hint" response from me than a direct answer.  Part of learning how to make kitless pens is learning how to figure out how and why things work.  The spring in a rollerball confuses a lot of new penturners.  Some pen turners ultimately end up deciding that the spring is to give the pen a softer writing feel, maybe closer to a fountain with a flex nib (although there will be no comparison to the scripts written by each).  That's an adequate level of understanding for someone assembling kit pens.  All they need to know is the it won't work without the spring.
> 
> But to a kitless pen maker, the spring serves a very specific purpose and solves a large number of design challenges.  Someone following an ABC kitless tutorial will know to put the spring in the pen, but if they don't understand why, can they ever really advance as a pen maker?
> 
> Ed
Click to expand...


So, for us new guys, what exactly IS the spring for, you have peaked my interest.  And exactly how can I figure out its purpose simple by taking the pen apart and putting it back together?  Sometimes people need to be taught, not just left to figure it out on our own.  After all none of us would have ever learned algebra if we were just given a bunch of numbers, variables and symbols and got told "now figure it out."


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## Joey-Nieves

Although there isn't a tutorial on rollerballs there is one for ball point pens http://content.penturners.org/library/pens/nibless_slimline_pen.pdf I'm sure you can extrapolate from this to the rollerball, I did. Normally Sections are 1-3/4"to 1-7/8" inculing the threads so you may want to start with that number.
What I do:
If you use a section off a Schmidt kit the thread will be close 8.5 x 1 I use a die to clean it out and thread the body. I drill a 5/16 by 3-1/8 deep hole in the blank I thread the inside 8.5 x 1 and the outside 12 x .75 triple start.
If you make you own section you will have to measure the refill your going to use and 1/4" for the spring.
If you want to go slowly, you can buy the section and the threaded insert at Richard Greenwald for about $7 and practice, measure and then design your own pen.
Now if you try to go with a 10m thread for the cap, I suggest you make a bronze bushing for the threads because you will need 5/16 ID 8.5 thread id and 10m od leaves less than 1 m wall thickness and At least I haven't been able to make it work with acrylic.

You keep on asking questions, some will give you a straight answer, others will want you to think on your own (re-invent the wheel sort of speak) then there will be one that will tell you try it by yourself and then ask questions.
I believe in helping, life is to short to waste time re-inventing anything, remember there is more than one way to do this, and Kitless is a mater of degrees start with  hybrids until you can make all the parts yourself, good luck!
Joey


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## Joe S.

builtbybill said:


> Ed McDonnell said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gumbercules563 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Parklandturner, you were kinda harsh.  You sked a lot of questions, why did you not give any answers?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hi John - Not sure what you think was harsh, but I accept that you do.  I'll make sure to use a very gentle tone in this response.
> 
> I did in fact ask questions, but I also provided very clear and direct answers to the first and third questions.  It's the parts after the question marks.  Maybe read them again.
> 
> The second question I asked got more of a "hint" response from me than a direct answer.  Part of learning how to make kitless pens is learning how to figure out how and why things work.  The spring in a rollerball confuses a lot of new penturners.  Some pen turners ultimately end up deciding that the spring is to give the pen a softer writing feel, maybe closer to a fountain with a flex nib (although there will be no comparison to the scripts written by each).  That's an adequate level of understanding for someone assembling kit pens.  All they need to know is the it won't work without the spring.
> 
> But to a kitless pen maker, the spring serves a very specific purpose and solves a large number of design challenges.  Someone following an ABC kitless tutorial will know to put the spring in the pen, but if they don't understand why, can they ever really advance as a pen maker?
> 
> Ed
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So, for us new guys, what exactly IS the spring for, you have peaked my interest.  And exactly how can I figure out its purpose simple by taking the pen apart and putting it back together?  Sometimes people need to be taught, not just left to figure it out on our own.  After all none of us would have ever learned algebra if we were just given a bunch of numbers, variables and symbols and got told "now figure it out."
Click to expand...

 
Try writing with just a rollerball refill, and then with one in a pen with the spring. You will notice the difference the spring makes in writing with the refill. Next try writing with the refill in the pen without the spring, will notice another important function the spring serves. We aren't asking anybody to "reinvent the wheel", just to think about things a little harder.


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## Charlie69

A couple of years ago my sister returned from a trip to China with a couple of roller ball pens from the Shanghai Tang  store.   Those pens were the first really nice pens I had written with and were my inspiration to start making pens.   They were super comfortable to write with, wrote beautifully and looked super cool.   Last year I started a topic asking why rollerball kits have such long nose cones/sections and EdStreet responded by saying it was the same reason roller balls kits come with a spring-"fudge factor".  Fwiw both Shanghai Tang pens have short nose cone/sections and had/have Schmidt  5888 refills with no spring.   

I only make the occasional pen to give as gifts but one of these days I'd like to get into kitless rb and fountain pens.   All the kits look the same to me with the exception of plating and bling and the long sections look odd to me... Never once has a person that I've given a pen to said wow! "look at all the beautiful metal on the front"!   They tend to admire the blank and finish work.   Which I find gratifying because that's the only work I did on the pen.


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## lorbay

You can also use this method. Studio of Bill Ooms -- AAW 2014 Symposium Handouts
And it does not have to be made from metal. 
Lin.


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## erichardson

toddlajoie said:


> I know that they make a rollerball that takes the ink cartridges used for fountain pens, that would make the pen very similar to make to the kitless FPs, As for not using them and using a standard RB refill, you will need to have sturdy and stable material, capable of having the small hole that the RB point sticks out of and turned down to close to that size, and be able to take the lateral stress from writing with it without cracking. (I'm guessing this is why most RB kits use metal for that end...)


Where can one find the rollerball nib that uses the FP cartridges?


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## bmachin

They are available from richardlgreenwald.com. They are made by Schmidt and Richard calls them the Rolling Righter. 

Better yet, since you're only a couple of hours away, why not drive over to Columbus (Dublin actually) to the Ohio Pen Show this weekend and buy them from him directly. Great chance to see some really interesting stuff.

Bill


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## drise

Richard Greenwald sells them.  richardgreenwald.com


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## mredburn

You do realize this thread was started May of 2014, continued on March 2015.


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