# Mandrel problems, and a question.



## Justin H (Jan 8, 2014)

First and foremost I want to say "Thank you!" to this group and it's members.  I'm new here but have been lurking for quite some time.  

I'm a newbie making pens, I just recently got my lathe (Thanksgiving-ish) and decided to make some custom pens for family for Christmas... I am now hooked and I can't stop buying kits and blanks and... everything. lol

Anyway, my mandrel question is this.

I have a basic mandrel and a mandrel saver.  Most of the single barrel kits require spacer bushings at the head-stock end of my lathe to get the barrels out over my ways so I can turn them far enough away from the head-stock.

Being a newb, I have a tendency to over-tighten my tailstock to stop my blanks from spinning, especially when I forget to turn my lathe speed back up after finishing my last pen....

In doing this, I've managed to jam a spacer bushing hard enough against the head-stock to actually crimp it ON to the mandrel.  While hand-turning for with-grain sanding, the mandrel tends to come unthreaded from the MT portion and now that bushing will not allow the mandrel to thread.  

Is it worth it for me to purchase another mandrel, or should I, since Christmas is past and gifts are not so time intensive, just learn to turn without it?  And what would you suggest for tutorials if I were to do so?

Thanks again for the help, and happy turning!


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## sbwertz (Jan 8, 2014)

Have you tried putting the bushing in a vise, drill a piece of wood part way through with a 7mm bit to make a protective cap for the end of the mandrel, and tapping the mandrel shaft out of the bushing with a light hammer or mallet?


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## OLDMAN5050 (Jan 8, 2014)

*Mandrel*

Could you get a photo of this? I myself do not put to muck pressure on my tailstock to create this problem. It is hard for me to see in my head what you are experiencing....


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## Jim Burr (Jan 8, 2014)

You found nothing under the "Search" function??? This has been hashed out for months with more solutions than you could shake a stick at. Come on...look it up...it's right there!!


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## Justin H (Jan 8, 2014)

OLDMAN5050 said:


> Could you get a photo of this? I myself do not put to muck pressure on my tailstock to create this problem. It is hard for me to see in my head what you are experiencing....



I'll try to get you a pic when I get home this evening.

And the vice/mallet idea is so obvious I feel silly for not thinking of it earlier... 

As to the Search, I was unable to search the forums without a membership to the site and didn't even realize it was available.  Sorry to trouble you, I won't ask any more stupid questions.

Thanks again for all the help!


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## its_virgil (Jan 8, 2014)

Having a bad day Jim? Get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? 
Don



Jim Burr said:


> You found nothing under the "Search" function??? This has been hashed out for months with more solutions than you could shake a stick at. Come on...look it up...it's right there!!


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## edstreet (Jan 8, 2014)

Ouch.  First on a mandrel setup the screw is used to determine torque, on the savers  that would be the tailstock.  It really does sound like you have some bad habits and keep that in mind as you work more and more with delicate things.

When you over tighten things the shaft of the mandrel tends to warp, also the squareness and shape of the bushings and mandrel are at stake so likely yes you may need a new mandrel


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## its_virgil (Jan 8, 2014)

After you find a way to remove the stuck bushing you may want to use something different for the space. Maybe a pen blank cutoff drilled and turned round as a spacer instead of the bushing. Use a piece of pen blank long enough to get the space you need between the headstock and the blank being turned. There may be other solutions. I too would like to see a picture.

To keep the blank from spinning should not take lots of tail stock pressure. There is some reason this is happening. Are your blanks longer than the tubes?  Are you using the proper bushings? You need to analyze your situation and figure out what is happening. Picture please.

Do a good turn daily!
Don



Justin H said:


> First and foremost I want to say "Thank you!" to this group and it's members.  I'm new here but have been lurking for quite some time.
> 
> I'm a newbie making pens, I just recently got my lathe (Thanksgiving-ish) and decided to make some custom pens for family for Christmas... I am now hooked and I can't stop buying kits and blanks and... everything. lol
> 
> ...


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## Boz (Jan 8, 2014)

I hope you get your mandrel problem solved.  Before you spend money on a new mandrel do some research in the forum and library about turning between the centers.  Since I ditched the mandrel and started turning this way my work has gotten much better.  Does not work so well for 7mm slimlines but for everything else it is much better.


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## ed4copies (Jan 8, 2014)

If you get a new mandrel, buy an adjustable length.  This will give you much better results and should eliminate the need for spacers.


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## edstreet (Jan 8, 2014)




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## Deadhead (Jan 8, 2014)

Justin H said:


> OLDMAN5050 said:
> 
> 
> > Could you get a photo of this? I myself do not put to muck pressure on my tailstock to create this problem. It is hard for me to see in my head what you are experiencing....
> ...


 
 One of my bosses many years ago had a sign in his office that said "Never be afraid to ask a stupid question; it's a lot easier to handle than a stupid mistake".


There is a difference between ignorance and stupidity; neverforget that.


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## Tom T (Jan 8, 2014)

Hi Guys,
I also need space by the head stock not usually the tail stock.  Other wise the first nut in the picture Ed sent try's to take the skin off my left hand.  My latest solution has been to use a bushing from the pen and pencil set from WC ( Wood Craft ).   I put that bushing on first and then the other bushings in proper order with the blanks.  If you run a several pens and wet sand and do not take off the bushing it can get stuck.  Gentle tap with the hammer will work. Gentle pressure on vice also.  I have also used a 7mm brass tube as a spacer in the past.  I did not like it as good as the bushing.  
Keep the questions coming.  Ask and you will receive.  This group on the IAP always gives good advice.  Also do not use the brass screw with the mandrel saver.  Keep really sharp tools helps also.


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## ed4copies (Jan 8, 2014)

There are very few "rules" I have found in turning.

HOWEVER, if you have your left hand in a position where it can hit those nuts, you should re-evaluate the way you are guiding your tools.  Keep your hand BEHIND the tool rest!!!!  

Not trying to be pushy, just trying to save you broken knuckles.

Ed


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## mark james (Jan 8, 2014)

Hey Jim... Chill!


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## mark james (Jan 8, 2014)

Justin:  Keep asking questions!!!


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## Tom T (Jan 8, 2014)

But it hurts so good.  Thank you for the good safety tip.
By the way I think I was turning acrylic camo blanks when I did it.  
Bolt action with camo really look good.


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## ed4copies (Jan 8, 2014)

When you get hit with that spinning chuck, NOTHING is worth the pain!!! DAMHIKT!!!


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## hard hat (Jan 8, 2014)

I saw a while back someone put a wrist sweatband around the chuck to cut down on the '$&!?' Of hitting a spinning chuck. 


The use of slim pen bushings to give you room from the headstock is good, a pen blank works well too. IMHO sharp tools are the fist step, once they are properly sharp, slowly make the pressure tighter more until they don't spin while turning.


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## monophoto (Jan 9, 2014)

A picture would really help - I'm struggling to understand how a bushing could get mechanically jammed onto a mandrel.  Are you sure it's not just glued on with finish?

The worst case is that you will have to replace the mandrel and bushing.  But a simpler solution could be to try to unwedge the bushing.  If it's glued on with surplus finish, soaking it in acetone should loosen it enough to be removed - and save everything.  But if it is really wedged mechanically, you might have to grip the bushing with pliers or a vice-grip, and then twist it off.  That may save the mandrel, but it could also sacrifice the bushing.


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## kovalcik (Jan 9, 2014)

I also am having a hard time envisoning how a bushing could get wedged on.  But that aside, a new mandrel rod is only around $10. Never hurts to have a spare or two around.  They do get bent and banged up eventually.


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## edstreet (Jan 9, 2014)

Allow me to break it down for you.

The bushing has a lip on it.

The mandrel shaft may not have been screwed down securely causing a pull to produce a lip by the threads.

The tension of the tailstock forces the bushing's lip to curl and the mandrel's lip to curl.

These two curls interact with each other causing a pressure fit and hard to remove.



Now from that we can also note that the OP's tailstock may also be subjected to stress fractures and the retaining nut can be damaged on the housing.  After all that housing is cast iron and that does happen, it will strip and break the housing.  This is why it's not a good idea to do high pressure with the tailstock.  If you do need high pressure like that get an arbor press.


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## sbwertz (Jan 9, 2014)

Tom T said:


> Hi Guys,
> I also need space by the head stock not usually the tail stock.  Other wise the first nut in the picture Ed sent try's to take the skin off my left hand.  My latest solution has been to use a bushing from the pen and pencil set from WC ( Wood Craft ).   I put that bushing on first and then the other bushings in proper order with the blanks.  If you run a several pens and wet sand and do not take off the bushing it can get stuck.  Gentle tap with the hammer will work. Gentle pressure on vice also.  I have also used a 7mm brass tube as a spacer in the past.  I did not like it as good as the bushing.
> Keep the questions coming.  Ask and you will receive.  This group on the IAP always gives good advice.  Also do not use the brass screw with the mandrel saver.  Keep really sharp tools helps also.



Take a piece of 7mm brass tube and glue it into a scrap blank.  Turn it round to about 1/2 inch.  You can make a couple of these and use them on either end of the mandrel.  If you taper the ends down almost to the tube on one end, they make pretty good sanding/finishing bushings, too.


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## sbwertz (Jan 9, 2014)

hard hat said:


> I saw a while back someone put a wrist sweatband around the chuck to cut down on the '$&!?' Of hitting a spinning chuck.
> 
> 
> The use of slim pen bushings to give you room from the headstock is good, a pen blank works well too. IMHO sharp tools are the fist step, once they are properly sharp, slowly make the pressure tighter more until they don't spin while turning.




I wrap the chuck with several layers of painter's masking tape to protect my knuckles.


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## LanceD (Jan 9, 2014)

Hey justin, don't let one grouch spoil the fun you'll have here on this forum. Keep asking questions and there's always someone here willing to answer any question you may have.

That being said if you'll PM me your address I have three or four adjustable mandrels that I haven't  used in three or four years and I'd like to send you one as a gift.


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## Justin H (Jan 9, 2014)

*Here's a pic.*

I "think" I've attached a picture correctly.

The left end in the pic is what threads into the MT #2 that slides into my head-stock.  I do not own a chuck, but I also don't own a short tool-rest so getting close to my work requires me to space the blanks out from the head-stock, thus the spacer bushings (I usually use 2-3).

Reading the thread though, using a 7mm drilled pen blank would work too and I think I'll do that until I decide to start spinning between centers.  I do have a 60 live center.  I'll have to pick up a 60 degree dead-center though.  And learn to use my tools without tightening my tail-stock down so hard!


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## OLDMAN5050 (Jan 9, 2014)

Looks as if it has spun on the shaft  and welded itself together...


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## jsolie (Jan 9, 2014)

Justin H said:


> ...I'll have to pick up a 60 degree  dead-center though...



I just picked up one from Grizzly and have been very happy with it.  I went with their carbide tipped one since I use bushings to get close.



OLDMAN5050 said:


> Looks as if it has spun on the shaft  and welded itself together...



Definite possibility.  Or the crud to the left of the bushing could have helped it become one with the mandrel rod.  I wonder if it isn't time for either a new rod or one of those adjustable mandrels.


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## edstreet (Jan 9, 2014)

sbwertz said:


> hard hat said:
> 
> 
> > I saw a while back someone put a wrist sweatband around the chuck to cut down on the '$&!?' Of hitting a spinning chuck.
> ...




Why why and why?  I do not see any valid reason to put materials on the chuck in this manner.


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## Dan Masshardt (Jan 9, 2014)

edstreet said:


> Why why and why?  I do not see any valid reason to put materials on the chuck in this manner.



That would drive me nuts   One more thing to do.   I don't think I've ever had an issue hitting a chuck   And I do dumb stuff   :-/


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## Ambidex (Jan 9, 2014)

Keep asking Justin...there is an incredible amount of info here...and lots of helpful folk willing to share.:wink:


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## Mr Vic (Jan 9, 2014)

My 4inch tool rest drove me nuts when doing a single barrel like a Wall St II. I went ahead and got a secound stock one (cheapest) for my Jet 1014 and the cut an inch of either side...Not as sweat as a round SS one but works like a dream.


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## mark james (Jan 10, 2014)

Justin H said:


> I "think" I've attached a picture correctly.
> 
> 
> And learn to use my tools without tightening my tail-stock down so hard!



When I first bought my Jet Mini, tightening the tailstock real tight was a matter of pride...  Stripped the bolts very quickly.   Jet customer service:  "Do you overtighten the tailstock?"  "Me, is that possible..."  An inexpensive fix and a lesson learned.:biggrin:


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## Sabaharr (Jan 11, 2014)

Like Ed said, getting hit with a spinning chuck across the wrist is no picnic. I don't mind telling you how I know that either. I didn't turn off the lathe before pulling out a bit from a blank and the chuck came out of the tailstock, bit into the blank and started spinning. It was one of those checkered segmented blanks with all the little diamonds in it. It shattered with the torque of the spinning chuck and flipped over on my wrist. It didn't break (my wrist) but it sure felt like it at first. Lesson learned. Turn off the lathe before backing out the bit or making any other adjustments.


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## plano_harry (Jan 11, 2014)

Wow that does look like a problem!  My suggestions:


try Sharon's approach, but that sucker could be welded
try some torch heat on the bushing while using Sharon's approach
take the free one from Lance.  Many of us have old mandrels that we have abandoned when moving to turning between centers
If you want to use a mandrel, I recommend a collet chuck to hold it instead of the MT2 contraption.  It won't bite you if you happen to bump it   and can be used for lots more applications.  When you are new, it takes a  while to find the right equipment combination for you.  Extensive  searching on the site can help shorten the process and eliminate buying  things you don't like, but there is no definitive answer on what to use  -- only preferences.  For example I don't use my mandrel saver anymore -  I didn't like the lateral slop between the rod and the saver hole.  If I had TBC bushings for every style, that is all I would use.


Harry




Justin H said:


> I "think" I've attached a picture correctly.
> 
> 
> The left end in the pic is what threads into the MT #2 that slides into  my head-stock.  I do not own a chuck, but I also don't own a short  tool-rest so getting close to my work requires me to space the blanks  out from the head-stock, thus the spacer bushings (I usually use 2-3).
> ...


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## sbwertz (Jan 13, 2014)

edstreet said:


> sbwertz said:
> 
> 
> > hard hat said:
> ...



When a 4 jaw chuck is open wide, it exposes sharp corners and edges.  It  is easy to let your hand come in contact with it, since the edges are  pretty much invisible when it is spinning...especially when you are  sanding.  Wrapping a couple of layers of blue painters tape both makes  it more visible, and keeps it from biting you.


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## Justin H (Jan 14, 2014)

sbwertz said:


> edstreet said:
> 
> 
> > When a 4 jaw chuck is open wide, it exposes sharp corners and edges.  It  is easy to let your hand come in contact with it, since the edges are  pretty much invisible when it is spinning...especially when you are  sanding.  Wrapping a couple of layers of blue painters tape both makes  it more visible, and keeps it from biting you.
> ...


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## Justin H (Jan 14, 2014)

*Well, I tried.*



OLDMAN5050 said:


> Looks as if it has spun on the shaft  and welded itself together...



I believe that is what has happened.  I got in the shop this past weekend and tried the vice/mallet approach.  I couldn't move the thing.  Not even a little bit.  So, I took an old hand-chisel and cut about 1/16 of an inch off the bushing on the side closest to the threads to allow it to thread into the MT2 so I could do a pen for my wife.  

I'm currently waiting on the delivery of a dead-center.  Going to try my hand at doing them between centers and see if I can do it.


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## edstreet (Jan 14, 2014)

sbwertz said:


> edstreet said:
> 
> 
> > sbwertz said:
> ...




If your approach is correct it wont' 'bite you' and if you look correctly you can easily see the spinning parts and will know exactly where they are at.  Perhaps that's just me tho.  Knowing how to touch is the key.


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## shastastan (Jan 17, 2014)

Experience is the best...(ad nauseum).  Bet you won't make that mistake again.  I had some concern about getting hit with the chuck, too.  What I did is take some scraps and make a few spacers to go on the mandrel.  If I mess them up, no big deal.  Just pick a drill bit that produces a good fit for the mandrel.  A couple of times tubes on my mandrel were too tight.  I realized that I probably had gotten some glue inside the tube and the pen mill didn't get it all out.  I do recommend that you join the Forum.  It's free and the search function will give you huge amounts of turning knowledge that you won't find on Google.


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## BayouPenturner (Jan 17, 2014)

can you send a picture of the issue.  I was able to change my mandrel shaft on the mandrel saverr mandrel.. I used two vice grips and turned the shaft until it was loose enough to remove.  I was not able to knock it out.  Then I took another shaft fro another mandrel and drove it in and it seems to be fine.  The shaft in the mt2 taper is a swedge fit.


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## shastastan (Jan 18, 2014)

Do you have a dremel tool?  I've used little cutting wheels on it with good success to remove frozen nuts and bolts.  You will have to be careful not to cut into your mandrel shaft.  If you make a cut in one side where it's fused, you might be able to open it enough to slip it off.  If not, you could just make a cut the length of the bushing and pry the cut open to remove it.  Might work, might not.  I'm not suggesting that you go out and by a dremel tool if you don't have one.  Maybe borrow if you know somebody who has one?


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