# Cheers/Jeers - Does this serve a purpose?



## beck3906 (Jul 30, 2013)

We get the same complaints and praises.  Then folks support their position of complaining or praising.

Do we really get anything from this?

And, yes, I've tried to block this forum but it doesn't seem to work.


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## Waluy (Jul 30, 2013)

It falls along the same line as reviews for any other thing you buy online. If you have no previous knowledge and almost everyone else is saying its good or bad chances are you will follow their lead. Or you will say oh their complaints are all about the customer service side I am not worried about that.


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## 1080Wayne (Jul 30, 2013)

Never look at it


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## tim self (Jul 30, 2013)

But does it really work?  With all the Jeer's for PSI, people still buy from them and complaints keep flying.  Maybe their expectations are extreme or unrealistic.  A bad dog is still going to be a bad dog next week.  People do not read them IMO.


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## plantman (Jul 30, 2013)

beck3906 said:


> We get the same complaints and praises. Then folks support their position of complaining or praising.
> 
> Do we really get anything from this?
> 
> And, yes, I've tried to block this forum but it doesn't seem to work.


 
Yes!! First of all we have the freedom of speach. Everyone has their own idea of what is art, what is craft, what is skill, and what is crap. And, I think they should give a reason why they feel that way if they are voiceing one of the above, be it good or bad. Sometimes people just need to vent their problems ( may or may not be pen related ) for someone else to hear so they don't feel that they are alone in the world, just as you are doing here. If you are looking for a pure how to on pen making, you need to look in the library or at something like youtube for videos and the like. The dictionary discribes a Forum as a meeting place or medium for discussion of matters of public interest. If you don't like the forum here, don't click on it, just enjoy the rest of the site. If we don't ask, we don't learn. Jim S


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## Russianwolf (Jul 30, 2013)

tim self said:


> But does it really work?  With all the Jeer's for PSI, people still buy from them and complaints keep flying.  Maybe their expectations are extreme or unrealistic.  A bad dog is still going to be a bad dog next week.  People do not read them IMO.



send the dog to me for the week, you'll get a cuddly puppy back when I'm done...But not even I can fix PSI.


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## Scruffy (Jul 30, 2013)

*Yes ..It does serve a purpose.*

When I joined I did not know Smitty's or Exotic Blanks or Lazer Linez..

It is because they have received Cheers that I first noticed them.  And as a result when I needed something, I looked at these locations.  (Capt'n Eddie also).   

So I may not be a big buyer, I but got very good product and service from all these places.  I probably would never have tried them if it had not been for their Cheers. 

PSI has things people want and they can't get elsewhere or they advertise better.  The big guy will always be that way.  People still buy IBM and Microsoft and use Google and Facebook, yet they always complain about them.

Go figure..


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## Olsarge (Jul 30, 2013)

Several have said negs about PSI.  I have been using them for at least 5 years and have never had anything but good service from them.  If these other people mentioned(  I didn't know about them till I joined this site) are so much better, I don't think I could stand it.


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## Haynie (Jul 30, 2013)

I forgot it existed.


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## Ted iin Michigan (Jul 30, 2013)

Interesting (perhaps) sidenote on this one: I placed an order through PSI yesterday. Got an email today that it had shipped. That in itself may (or may not) be noteworthy. However, I got a separatae email (from Kim) that said they were out of one item and that it would be shipped when (and no billing until) it comes in. 

Kind of sounds like decent customer service, eh?

Also - to the original Q - I'm like Scruffy. Hadn't heard of nor used some vendors till I saw the "cheers" here. Glad I'm here if for no other reason than that.


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## walshjp17 (Jul 30, 2013)

Scruffy said:


> PSI has things people want and they can't get elsewhere ....



Woodturningz (Other Turning Project Kits - WoodTurningz) carries PSI products.  If you need something from PSI and want good customer service to boot, check out Ryan P. and his crew from Woodturningz.  If it is not in stock, Ryan may have to order it so check with him first.


Other vendors also carry PSI products.


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## Smitty37 (Jul 30, 2013)

beck3906 said:


> We get the same complaints and praises.  Then folks support their position of complaining or praising.
> 
> Do we really get anything from this?
> 
> And, yes, I've tried to block this forum but it doesn't seem to work.


Whether you block it or not, you never have to read it if you don't want to.  There are lots of forums here that I never read.


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## beck3906 (Jul 30, 2013)

What about a setting like one of the vendor forums where you can make one post and nothing can be added to the thread?


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## OKLAHOMAN (Jul 30, 2013)

In the end your still supporting PSI, and just maybe that is what they want, ship a few thousand dollars of merchandise to one customer, instead of shipping a thousand orders out for the same dollars.


.





walshjp17 said:


> Scruffy said:
> 
> 
> > PSI has things people want and they can't get elsewhere ....
> ...


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## Smitty37 (Jul 30, 2013)

beck3906 said:


> What about a setting like one of the vendor forums where you can make one post and nothing can be added to the thread?


Vendor's pay for that....I don't think most people want to pay to say something about a vendor.


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## beck3906 (Jul 30, 2013)

Not saying to pay.

Say your peace and stop it there.  We don't need 20 more comments from folks dredging up years old feelings.

And I could stop reading them.  But it's there, so it just makes me wonder if someone says something new.


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## Smitty37 (Jul 30, 2013)

beck3906 said:


> Not saying to pay.
> 
> Say your peace and stop it there.
> 
> And I could stop reading them.


I said my piece and you introduced something else that was not in your initial OP and I gave a response to your new question.  


If they bothered me as much as they seem to bother you I would stop reading them.


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## beck3906 (Jul 30, 2013)

Sorry, to explain more.

The poster can say their peace about the cheer/jeer and we stop it there.  Why does it need to have 20 more postings after that?


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## Scruffy (Jul 30, 2013)

*There is the possibility that the person starting the..*

thread is not entirely correct.  I see nothing wrong with other members having the chance to set the records straight.  Or to agree with the original poster.


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## Smitty37 (Jul 30, 2013)

*Check with jeff*

You might ask the last question to the administrator of the site.  I'm not sure but I believe that what you are asking was discussed at length before the current method was introduced.  Jeff could best answer why he went the way he did.


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## NittanyLion (Jul 30, 2013)

As a newer turner, this forum has been more than helpful.  Without it I wouldn't have found Exotic Blanks, Woodturningz, and WoodnWhimsies, along with others on here I will order from in the future.  Most new folks start with PSI, then soon learn you don't have to settle for their level of customer service.  I think it also rewards our good suppliers and holds them accountable.  I'm willing to bet that most of them check this forum regularly.  In the end, it gives us a better product.....and rewards good folks.....unless your PSI and just don't care.


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## mdm0829 (Jul 30, 2013)

I have been vocal about my frustration with past orders from PSI, but I needed something that they carried so I gave them another try.  Ordered Tuesday, received on Friday.  Good service.  Maybe they read these posts?  Anyway, I like to hear what people say.


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## jeff (Jul 30, 2013)

beck3906 said:


> Sorry, to explain more.
> 
> The poster can say their peace about the cheer/jeer and we stop it there.  Why does it need to have 20 more postings after that?



We discussed this last fall. Check out this poll.


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## Leatherman1998 (Jul 31, 2013)

I do like having this forum here if not for the learning value of others dealings with certain suppliers, or for the comody value of these stories. (yes they are pretty funny sometimes)

Sent from my Rooted Galaxy Player.


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## edicehouse (Jul 31, 2013)

You have the one or two people that can not be satisfied with anything, you could give them a gold brick and they would complain that it isn't stamped...  

Say vender A has 99 cheers and 1 jeer, you would probably take it as that one person being the one that complains about everything.

A lot of us worry about dropping $100 or $200 or more online to a small vender, but when they read and see a dozen or so people attesting to them, they are more apt.  

I hope he will not mind, if you do Leroy let me know, but let's take smitty pen works for example.  He has about a dozen pen kits offered.  If you find his site by looking on google and going a page or two down (not sure how far down he is on the search engine), would you order from him, or PSI (which is probably #1 - #10 on results)?  Keeping in mind that you do not have any back information from IAP on him.  And I don't think anyone here will argue that he does not give top notch customer service.

When ordering on ebay, you find the same item for the same cost by two different people.  Same price across the board, one has 8 feed back and the other has 1000 in the last month; which are you probably going to order from?

I think the forum is a useful tool to help the new people to find new venders.  As many have said if you don't like it; don't go.


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## edstreet (Aug 1, 2013)

plantman said:


> Yes!! First of all we have the freedom of speach. Everyone has their own idea of what is art, what is craft, what is skill, and what is crap. And, I think they should give a reason why they feel that way if they are voiceing one of the above, be it good or bad. Sometimes people just need to vent their problems ( may or may not be pen related ) for someone else to hear so they don't feel that they are alone in the world, just as you are doing here. If you are looking for a pure how to on pen making, you need to look in the library or at something like youtube for videos and the like. The dictionary discribes a Forum as a meeting place or medium for discussion of matters of public interest. If you don't like the forum here, don't click on it, just enjoy the rest of the site. If we don't ask, we don't learn. Jim S



Is it really 'freedom of speech' when you are told you can not post things because someone is lawsuit crazy and due to legal liability and all that crap you are unable to say things?  Truth of the matter seems as if most non-rave, non-back slapping and non-tumbs up is frowned upon and highly discouraged.


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## jttheclockman (Aug 1, 2013)

I do not visit that forum because to me it is a joke. I laugh when someone Jeers PSI and the very next posting some Cheers them and that goes for all vendors. All that is is a matter of opinions. There are many many many people here that use vendors but never write reviews and I am one of them. If you are a vendor and do not treat people right then you are not in the vending business very long. This is the same approach when you are selling your wares. Remember that. Maybe we should have a cheers and jeers section for those that sell pens.

To those that said they would not have found said vendors if it weren't for that forum than shame on you. That tells us you did not read other forums. You did not go to the vendor section. Take the time and view and partake in the entire site and become a true member. You will get a better take on things instead of reading one or two reviews. 

I thought this was hashed out just recently.


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## Scruffy (Aug 1, 2013)

*I don't read every post and I don't intend to.*

I don't read every new post and I don't intend to.

I only read what appears to be of interest to me at the time.

I do trust people's opinion of experiences they have had with a vendor more than I trust self advertising from a vendor or their thrall. 

I also have strong opinions about people that are judgmental about others' values and experiences and at the same time are arrogant about their own.


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## mbroberg (Aug 1, 2013)

It is very easy to avoid Cheers and Jeers postings.  Cheers and Jeers is part of the Marketplace forum.  Threads contained in the Marketplace forum do not cycle through the front page every time they arre updated.  In fact, they do not even appear on the front page unless you are a member of the "Marketplace" group.  You can join or leave that group by accessing your User Control Panel and navigate to Group Memberships.  The only way you would be able to look at a Cheers and Jeers post is to actually navigate to Cheers and Jeers in the Marketplace forum and open the threads.  Hope that helps those of you who don't want to see Cheers and Jeers.


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## Smitty37 (Aug 1, 2013)

*Freedom of Speech*

For those concerned with freedom of speech - your freedom of speech ends at the door to my house.  You do NOT have the right to say whatever you please when you are in my private house - or place of business. Hence if you work for a company, your boss can tell you that you may not say certain things - in fact, today companies are REQUIRED to prohibit certain kinds of speech to stay within the law regarding harassment.  Also, this is a private forum and the owner has every right to put any limits they think necessary to maintain decorum and focus on posts here.


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## jeff (Aug 1, 2013)

edstreet said:


> Is it really 'freedom of speech' when you are told you can not post things because someone is lawsuit crazy and due to legal liability and all that crap you are unable to say things?  Truth of the matter seems as if most non-rave, non-back slapping and non-tumbs up is frowned upon and highly discouraged.



First of all, YOU don't have to deal with 'all that crap', I do. If I ask that conversation be limited about a certain topic, rest assured there is a good reason for it. 

The simple rule is that broad, negative statements are not tolerated. You are more than welcome to post negative reviews of a vendor related to your direct business relationship. But you can't post unsubstantiated negative statements simply intended to make people think poorly about a vendor.


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## Smitty37 (Aug 1, 2013)

Briskar said:


> ...*unless your PSI and just don't care*.


 Consider this - PSI gets a lot more jeers than the rest of us because they get a lot more chances to screw up.  In short, they do more business (in my unsubstantiated opinion) than the rest of us combined. If they get 500 sales a day and I get 5 they can be 99% perfect and still screw up more orders than I get.  So, in my opinion, it's going a little far to say they don't care - I think it's more likely that they don't have themselves organized to handle consumer issues as well as they should and probably will eventually.  The "fast shipping" issue is a fairly recent one - 2 years ago, nobody was expecting 'same day/next day' shipping.  Today everyone does and the smaller vendors can be a lot faster on our feet handling that than PSI can.


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## Waluy (Aug 1, 2013)

Smitty37 said:


> So, in my opinion, it's going a little far to say they don't care - I think it's more likely that they don't have themselves organized to handle consumer issues as well as they should and probably will eventually.  The "fast shipping" issue is a fairly recent one - 2 years ago, nobody was expecting 'same day/next day' shipping.



It honestly feels to me like PSI experienced a much larger growth than they had expected. I know the company I work for had the absolute best sales year ever last year and our customer service took a sharp turn for the worse because we weren't prepared to deal with all those customers. 

I know in my area when I started considering making pens three years ago there was one pen turner in the area (there may have been more but he was the only one ever seen at shows). Now every show I attend has at least 3 pen turners set up and it is rarely one I have seen at another show. 

But that's just my 2 cents on why PSI's service may have gone down some. I typically don't buy from them but that is because I have a Woodcraft just down the street and when I can afford to wait I have all the IAP vendors sites to choose from. My cousin on the other hand swears by PSI because to him it is more of a one stop shop.


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## alphageek (Aug 1, 2013)

Smitty37 said:


> Briskar said:
> 
> 
> > ...*unless your PSI and just don't care*.
> ...



Excellent view Smitty... I think some of the big players (walmart/amazon) in the shipping business have really changed peoples thinking on shipping speed, but the level of automation requires you to be huge. 

Unless you get the smaller vendors (like several here) who can give personal service and turn things around quick.

PSI is somewhere in the middle and that can be a really tough spot.  It was great to see Ed Levys post in the recent jeer.   That ONE post alone may give good proof why its good to have a cheer/jeer forum.


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## BayouPenturner (Aug 2, 2013)

I have used PSI for 8 years and not had any issues with the products or shipment in a timely fashion.  people should use vendors they have confidence in so if there are issues they won't be too upset.  remember even though we think we are all easy to please our wives would beg to differ or at least mine will enlighten me on this sometimes, but I know it is never my fault.

I keep telling her I thought I made a mistake one but, I was wrong.

Use vendors you get the best service from and try to up port the vendors who help support the IAP process.


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## Jgrden (Aug 3, 2013)

I see. When I voice a complaint I need to be specific. Okay. I just placed an order that was a "we miss you" offer that saved me twenty dollars. I paid for U.S.P.S. and will see when it arrives. I will keep you "specifically" posted with the details.


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## LagniappeRob (Aug 3, 2013)

Just an informational point... the ISP and the website administrators are protected from lawsuits just because others say things about a particular company provided they DON'T take try to limit the speech (even if the speech is untruthful).  This has come up several times lately with the website ripoffreport.com. In each time they (ripoffreport) won. It's protected under the Communications Decency Act as a "publisher". However, if the site does start moderating what others are saying it can open itself up to liability. 

As a hosting provider myself, I try to keep up with these issues. I won't take anything down without a legal basis for doing so. Which interesting enough is trying to be used right now against ripoffreport.com. A lawyer copyrighted some material is claiming they are violating a copyright under DMCA. It's being fought that the copyright was issued erroneously. Interesting stuff.


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## TellicoTurning (Aug 4, 2013)

I still don't understand everyone's concept that PSI is a bad company... I've been dealing with them for over 12 years..ever since I got into this vortex of pen turning... I order with the expectation of getting my stuff in 5-7 days - which I almost always do - I understand the on line order process of receiving an order, checking it, then passing it along to the order puller, checking it, passing it along to the packer, then calling in the shipping company to pick up, who takes it out of PSI's control - the only control they have is picking the company - once in the shipping companies hands, PSI has no control over the routing, handling etc... I've dealt with UPS, USPS, FEDEX, DHL, and half a dozen other courier companies, plus just about every trucking company on the road, independent truckers, all major airlines and steamship lines over the course of 40 years in shipping... every one of them has screwed up on occasion... the real key is how did they handle the screw up, what restitution did they make, etc.... like Smitty said, if you are a small shipper and get 5 orders per day, there is little likelihood of a screw up... I like PSI and think they do a good job.


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## edstreet (Aug 4, 2013)

TellicoTurning said:


> I still don't understand everyone's concept that PSI is a bad company... I've been dealing with them for over 12 years..ever since I got into this vortex of pen turning... I order with the expectation of getting my stuff in 5-7 days - which I almost always do - I understand the on line order process of receiving an order, checking it, then passing it along to the order puller, checking it, passing it along to the packer, then calling in the shipping company to pick up, who takes it out of PSI's control - the only control they have is picking the company - once in the shipping companies hands, PSI has no control over the routing, handling etc... I've dealt with UPS, USPS, FEDEX, DHL, and half a dozen other courier companies, plus just about every trucking company on the road, independent truckers, all major airlines and steamship lines over the course of 40 years in shipping... every one of them has screwed up on occasion... the real key is how did they handle the screw up, what restitution did they make, etc.... like Smitty said, if you are a small shipper and get 5 orders per day, there is little likelihood of a screw up... I like PSI and think they do a good job.




With instant gratification of the internet comes the demand for me me me and me.  Most of the 'jeers' that I have read stem actually from user errors or shipping errors rather than from the company itself.

The other thing I would like to point out is shipping 5 orders per day -vs- shipping 1,500 orders per day is quite massive.  Look at it from the shipping company's side. 5 boxes can easily be taken to the post office and dropped off with ease, 1,500 can not.  If you dump 1,500 boxes at the post office they are likely going to take a day or 3 to process that into their system.  This is what most do not realize.

Sadly just about everyone here wants to compare the shipping companies handling and say that is the company itself, which it is not.  The company itself rarely gets talked about.


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## Scruffy (Aug 4, 2013)

*Interesting point ...*

If we took shipping & delivery time off the board, how many of these "Jeers" focus on the quality of the products?

I like that point.

In fact, the quality of the product is probably more important to me than a couple days on the delivery cycle.

(and I have remarked here about speedy delivery)


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## Smitty37 (Aug 4, 2013)

Like it or not - it's the "big" (I use that term loosely because there isn't a supplier of pen kits that I know of who would qualify as a big business in the real sense of the word.) guys who make the market. 

They set the benchmarks.   I, and I think most of the other small vendors, look at them when we're setting prices. 

We get a sense of what's selling by seeing what they're pushing in their catalogs and web sites.

We base our offerings on where we can 'beat' them.  Because for all of the complaints about PSI - I don't sell a thing unless my price is competitive with theirs and usually mine has to be lower.

They are filling the orders of tens of thousands of purchasers - we little guys would all drop dead from exaustion trying to keep up if they disappeared.

They created the market that your favorite small, personalized service vendor is operating in. I personally like to be able to say "PSI charges $$$$ for this product and my price is only $$$"

They are not your enemy, they are your friends.


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## edstreet (Aug 4, 2013)

Scruffy said:


> If we took shipping & delivery time off the board, how many of these "Jeers" focus on the quality of the products?
> 
> I like that point.
> 
> ...



Even item quality itself can not be attributed to the vendor unless they themselves makes it.  However that being said, cases like exclusive right to marketing, supply and the like is a whole new ball game.

I recently, read past 60 days, made an order for some item and it took 45 days for me to receive it.  I also can order waterstones from japan and they will be here faster than an item shipped from next state over.  Neither of those is a reflection of the supply company.


What the jeer/cheer should be is more of a running tally of good to bad feedback.  By posts alone with out some rating system is almost meaningless other than to rant and blow steam off.  It should not be that difficult to add some type of rating system like that to IAP.


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## plantman (Aug 4, 2013)

A rating system would be like the doctor asking you to rate your pain betreen 1 and 10. Some people have a very low thresold for pain, others can take a lot of pain, so your 10 and my 10 may be very different. Jim  S


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## edstreet (Aug 4, 2013)

plantman said:


> A rating system would be like the doctor asking you to rate your pain betreen 1 and 10. Some people have a very low thresold for pain, others can take a lot of pain, so your 10 and my 10 may be very different. Jim  S



That is why you have specific questions that you ask and not vague generic quesitons like the 1-10 scale for pain you mentioned.


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## Smitty37 (Aug 4, 2013)

eBay has a rating system that is next to worthless. (That from a former top-rated seller when I sold there)


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## Smitty37 (Aug 4, 2013)

If you really want to know how a vendor stacks up - go to the penturning forum and ask "Any of you folks ever do business with the Kludge Komputer Korp? If you did, how was it and how good are their products.? You'll get more answers than you know what do do with and they will be pretty candid.


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## MillerTurnings (Aug 4, 2013)

*I like em all*

I read all the cheers and jeers, and remember to use a grain of salt with all of them. Thanks for allowing people to vent good and bad.


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## edicehouse (Aug 5, 2013)

It's like any other section of the site, if you don't want to see ramblings, don't go to casual conversation. If you don't care about metal lathes guess where you don't go. There may be a section you really enjoy that someone else wonders why even have that section.


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## kovalcik (Aug 5, 2013)

I think the forum serves a purpose.  I've used that information to choose particular vendors.  And to answer the original posters questions, even though a lot of people bash PSI, I still shop there for some things because my personal experience with them (before even joining IAP) has been good, and their prices are good for the items I buy there.  I put my personal experiences over forum ratings. I realize that most people (myself included) rarely give feedback for basic good service. A lot more will post a complaint even over the slightest issue.  

I agree an overall rating system whould be a better indicator.   Not sure how to make that work. Maybe a poll can be set up for each vendor and each user could "vote" a rating for vendors they have used. Make it so the votes are changeable so if the vendor starts to slip or improve people can update their rating.  One thread/poll per vendor and new threads/vendors could be easily added.


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## Scruffy (Aug 5, 2013)

*Any rating system suffers..*

if it does not represent COMPLETE activity.  As pointed out earlier, PSI can have the best overall performance by percentage, but even if the few unhappy souls can make life appear worse than it is.

A rating system in order to be useful would have to reflect some rating value for ALL activity.


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