# CA Finish problem



## Guthriecb (Sep 29, 2019)

I’m new to pen turning, have done a few and getting a little better with each on. I’ve been watching videos on CA finishes and have really been enjoying them. However I turned two Purple Heart pens today and when I finished them they had splotches that appeared to be under the glue. You can see it in the pics. I sanded them to 600 grit. Rubbed them with teak oil, sanded with 2000 grit and did the CA finish. I’ve had lots of luck with that so far with all my other pens. In fact, I did 2 padauk today as well the same way and didn’t have a problem. Is it something with Purple Heart or is it the oil?  Thanks in advance I look forward to the help.


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## bsshog40 (Sep 29, 2019)

Purpleheart can be oily by itself. Adding the teak oil may have caused it to have too much oil in it causing the CA to not cure good enough. I would say just sand it down, wipe it with some denatured alcohol and let it dry for a bit. I wouldn't use the teak oil again, just make sure it's dry and go straight to the CA. Others may have more experience with it so I would wait for others to chime in.


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## Guthriecb (Sep 29, 2019)

Thanks bsshog. I think I’m not gonna try to fix this one but going forward I think I’m gonna skip the teak oil on Purple Heart and go with the alcohol like you said.


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## keithbyrd (Sep 29, 2019)

the only oil I have ever used with CA was BLO and then only an agent when applying the finish.  but I haven't used that method in years.  As bishop said said to final grit, wipe with alcohol, let dry  and do CA finish.


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## Monty (Sep 29, 2019)

Be aware that both alcohol (DNA), and acetone contain some water, and will, if left open in the shop, absorb water from the air. If you apply your CA too soon, the water that has not yet evaporated can cause the CA to fog. I suggest that you use CA accelerator if you want to remove residual oil form wood.


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## Gary Beasley (Sep 29, 2019)

Wiping with acetone will do the job, and much cheaper than accelerator.


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## Monty (Sep 29, 2019)

Gary Beasley said:


> Wiping with acetone will do the job, and much cheaper than accelerator.


That's true, but acetone will contain a small amount of moisture which can cause fogging.


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## Gary Beasley (Sep 29, 2019)

Monty said:


> That's true, but acetone will contain a small amount of moisture which can cause fogging.


True, but way less than alcohol does. It also dries off much faster. CA does need moisture to cure, you just dont want it happening before it bonds and penetrates the surfaces well.


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## WriteON (Sep 29, 2019)

You'll figure it out. Everything is a learning experience. Great choice for the kit & blank. Purpleheart is a beautiful wood. 
As for CA...I never use it on top of anything. Sand, clean and apply.


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## jttheclockman (Sep 29, 2019)

I agree skip the added oil. Not needed. But be careful with the sanding because the next problem you will be coming here with is sanding dust in the pores. You will get that with woods like purpleheart. I too use acetone to take oil away from oily woods. I will let the blank spin to ensure it dries but I am never in a hurry to make any pens.


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## Guthriecb (Sep 29, 2019)

Monty said:


> Be aware that both alcohol (DNA), and acetone contain some water, and will, if left open in the shop, absorb water from the air. If you apply your CA too soon, the water that has not yet evaporated can cause the CA to fog. I suggest that you use CA accelerator if you want to remove residual oil form wood.



I guess I left it out, but I did use a shot of accelerator after each coat. I did 3 coats of thin and a coat of medium. Then went to the micromesh pads. Are you saying to use the accelerator on the wood prior to the CA coats? Thanks!


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## magpens (Sep 29, 2019)

In my opinion, you should not use accelerator on the wood before applying the CA. . If you are applying the CA with the "blue shop towel" method you run the risk of that getting stuck to the blank. . And if you apply accelerator between coats of CA, you should wipe down after the CA has done its job.


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## leehljp (Sep 29, 2019)

No one has mentioned "sand-through". That is classic sanding though the CA. I would also guess that you used a mandrel. That sand-through splotches are uneven indicating a slight out of round (OOR), (OOR-not "technically" correct, but it gets the message across.) With a mandrel, too much sanding pressure will very slightly cause unseen mandrel wobble that results in spots being sanded off but not in other area. That same pressure in applying CA will allow more CA to build up in some areas than in other areas.

TBC will generally eliminate wobble and spots.


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## Guthriecb (Sep 29, 2019)

leehljp said:


> No one has mentioned "sand-through". That is classic sanding though the CA. I would also guess that you used a mandrel. That sand-through splotches are uneven indicating a slight out of round (OOR), (OOR-not "technically" correct, but it gets the message across.) With a mandrel, too much sanding pressure will very slightly cause unseen mandrel wobble that results in spots being sanded off but not in other area. That same pressure in applying CA will allow more CA to build up in some areas than in other areas.
> 
> TBC will generally eliminate wobble and spots.



You mean as the splotches are sanded through and don’t have CA or that the wobble caused low spots when sanding the wood? The spots are still really smooth with CA on top but looks almost like air underneath. The padauk didn’t have the same problem, only the Purple Heart, and they were all done the same way.  Thanks for the help. 


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## jttheclockman (Sep 29, 2019)

Well thought I would add a few more possible reactions to what you are seeing. Sometimes referred to as "ghosting" or "blushing". This is usually caused by moisture trapped under the finish and if a hard case finish such as CA is used  and an accelerator to cure it flashes it over so quick it has let the moisture under it no chance to evaporate. You see this with lacquers as well because they flash over so fast. It can be humidity moisture, it can be oil that has not dried, can be cleaning agent such as DNA or acetone or lacquer thinner or mineral spirits and other possible factors. 

Now My suggestion is stop being in a hurry and slow down. Always a good idea to clean the blank well after sanding and I like to use acetone. This dries quickly but I am always error on the cautious side. Time. Now the best method I found and never run into finishing problems with CA or lacquer as a matter of fact. You need to seal the wood before you proceed with building the finish and with pens the use of 3 to 4 coats of thin CA is the way to go without using accelerator.  Thin dries quickly. You should be able to see any defects before moving on to med CA and correct those before. Now here is where many people differ with their methods. I use 4 to 5 coats of med. I never use accelerator between coats.  If you are going to use the accelerator than make sure it is compatible to the CA, make sure you spray a good 10 to 12" away and spray lightly. Make sure the coat is dry before applying next coat. Again slow down.  Make sure when you spray that your CA is not in site or else you will have a bottle of rocks. Remember you are spraying a liquid and it needs time to evaporate before being trappe under the next coat. So what you are seeing can be what I am describing but I gave you ways to avoid. Good luck.


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## leehljp (Sep 29, 2019)

Guthriecb said:


> You mean as the splotches are sanded through and don’t have CA or that the wobble caused low spots when sanding the wood? The spots are still really smooth with CA on top but looks almost like air underneath. The padauk didn’t have the same problem, only the Purple Heart, and they were all done the same way.  Thanks for the help.
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Sure, sand-through is just as smooth on the wood - as on the CA. Of course, when it happened to me numerous times early on, I was using very fine SP or MM; it didn't matter if it was CA, other or wood, it all had the same feel. It doesn't matter if one blank does it and another doesn't. Sometimes it comes in bunches. I had one particular wood in which the CA was constantly lifting on the ends, leaving a cloudy look. But it didn't happen on other woods. Turns out the very oily wood I was using, AND the mandrel. You didn't say if you were using a mandrel or not. That is usually one of the components in sand through, but not always. 

BTW, the reason mandrels are usually a component, is that 99.9% of "new to pen turning" folks start off with mandrels instead of Turning Between Centers (TBC). Being new, subtle pressure difference on the chisel to the blank for different reasons are not noticed, but it DOES matter, or alignment of the head to tail stock, too tight of the tail stock on the mandrel, or the use of other than 60° tail stock in the mandrel cup end - results in minuscule out of round wobble that results in what you have. Another way around it is to use a good set of calipers and measure the build up of CA thickness. 

I had that early on and did not notice it at first because I used wax. I had sanded through and while it was still turning, I applied wax. Guess what: The wax over the CA shined just like the CA, and two days later the shining wax rubbed off and exposed area of the blank that had been sanded through. I learned an important lesson from that.

About 1 in 3 of the results of the query below deals with spots on CA similar to what yours are showing. It can be a different reason than that, but the most COMMON problem is sanding through. Your picts are classic sand-through. This has been going on since I have been here (14 years).



			https://www.penturners.org/search/16295/?page=2&q=sand+through&o=relevance


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## KenB259 (Sep 29, 2019)

Guthriecb said:


> I guess I left it out, but I did use a shot of accelerator after each coat. I did 3 coats of thin and a coat of medium. Then went to the micromesh pads. Are you saying to use the accelerator on the wood prior to the CA coats? Thanks!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Not seeing where anyone reacted to this, if I’m wrong, I apologize. Anyways, 3 coats of thin and then only 1 coat of medium is nowhere near enough. I usually do 3 to 4 coats of thin, then lightly sand with 1000 grit sandpaper. Then I apply 6 to 8 coats of medium, then micro mesh. Also I clean the residue after sanding the thin coat with a little dna. 


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## Guthriecb (Sep 29, 2019)

I just want to say thanks to everyone on the quick and insightful replies. I have lots of new perspectives to think about while turning. I’m gonna experiment with all of them, with cheap kits. Lol. I also appreciate your patience when I ask for further explanations. You guys are great. Thanks!


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## Guthriecb (Sep 29, 2019)

leehljp said:


> Sure, sand-through is just as smooth on the wood - as on the CA. Of course, when it happened to me numerous times early on, I was using very fine SP or MM; it didn't matter if it was CA, other or wood, it all had the same feel. It doesn't matter if one blank does it and another doesn't. Sometimes it comes in bunches. I had one particular wood in which the CA was constantly lifting on the ends, leaving a cloudy look. But it didn't happen on other woods. Turns out the very oily wood I was using, AND the mandrel. You didn't say if you were using a mandrel or not. That is usually one of the components in sand through, but not always.
> 
> BTW, the reason mandrels are usually a component, is that 99.9% of "new to pen turning" folks start off with mandrels instead of Turning Between Centers (TBC). Being new, subtle pressure difference on the chisel to the blank for different reasons are not noticed, but it DOES matter, or alignment of the head to tail stock, too tight of the tail stock on the mandrel, or the use of other than 60° tail stock in the mandrel cup end - results in minuscule out of round wobble that results in what you have. Another way around it is to use a good set of calipers and measure the build up of CA thickness.
> 
> ...



Thanks for expanding! I’ll keep this in mind moving forward. You are right, I am using a mandrel with a mandrel saver. Sorry I didn’t say that earlier. So I’ll be more careful not to over tighten the tail stock as well as watch my pressure when sanding. I appreciate your help!


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## Guthriecb (Sep 29, 2019)

jttheclockman said:


> Well thought I would add a few more possible reactions to what you are seeing. Sometimes referred to as "ghosting" or "blushing". This is usually caused by moisture trapped under the finish and if a hard case finish such as CA is used and an accelerator to cure it flashes it over so quick it has let the moisture under it no chance to evaporate. You see this with lacquers as well because they flash over so fast. It can be humidity moisture, it can be oil that has not dried, can be cleaning agent such as DNA or acetone or lacquer thinner or mineral spirits and other possible factors.
> 
> Now My suggestion is stop being in a hurry and slow down. Always a good idea to clean the blank well after sanding and I like to use acetone. This dries quickly but I am always error on the cautious side. Time. Now the best method I found and never run into finishing problems with CA or lacquer as a matter of fact. You need to seal the wood before you proceed with building the finish and with pens the use of 3 to 4 coats of thin CA is the way to go without using accelerator. Thin dries quickly. You should be able to see any defects before moving on to med CA and correct those before. Now here is where many people differ with their methods. I use 4 to 5 coats of med. I never use accelerator between coats. If you are going to use the accelerator than make sure it is compatible to the CA, make sure you spray a good 10 to 12" away and spray lightly. Make sure the coat is dry before applying next coat. Again slow down. Make sure when you spray that your CA is not in site or else you will have a bottle of rocks. Remember you are spraying a liquid and it needs time to evaporate before being trappe under the next coat. So what you are seeing can be what I am describing but I gave you ways to avoid. Good luck.



Thank you! I do get a little rushed sometimes. This idea makes a lot of sense. I’ll slow down in the future! Thanks again. 


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## KenB259 (Sep 29, 2019)

Guthriecb said:


> I just want to say thanks to everyone on the quick and insightful replies. I have lots of new perspectives to think about while turning. I’m gonna experiment with all of them, with cheap kits. Lol. I also appreciate your patience when I ask for further explanations. You guys are great. Thanks!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



One thing to think about, you can try finishing techniques on just a plain piece of wood, doesn’t have to be a pen. Just load up a chunk of wood, make it round, apply finish, as the shampoo bottles say, rinse and repeat, keep doing it until you run out wood. Also you can refine your turning skills, maybe get comfortable with a skew.etc. 


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## WriteON (Sep 29, 2019)

Guthriecb said:


> Thank you! I do get a little rushed sometimes. This idea makes a lot of sense. I’ll slow down in the future! Thanks again.


I'd rush a step and then had go back or start over..... I'm convinced that short cuts take longer. Definitely slow down to a crawl. It's shame to have a failure when the project is just about finished. Relax and enjoy...it's a hobby.


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## leehljp (Sep 30, 2019)

OK, here are several links from 2018 and older  (and there are plenty, plenty more going back 12+ years) that show the same thing you are experiencing.





__





						Help, not sure what I'm doing wrong with CA finish.
					

Trying to apply a CA finish on a walnut pen and got this (see pics) after 1500 micro mesh.  Any thoughts on what I'm doing wrong?  Not sure if I've sanded through the CA?  there is no noticeable difference in the feel of the light vs dark spots.



					www.penturners.org
				








__





						What is going on here?
					

CA finish on diagonal cut whiskey barrel.   Sanded to 600.   Rubbed with BLO and then wiped dry.   BLO/CA 6 coats Med.   4 coats Thin.   Wet sand to smooth, then micro mesh.    Cloudy spots that did not polish follow the grain.  Moisture in the wood?  Or did I sand through?



					www.penturners.org
				




The picts are taken from different angles and may appear to be different from your picts. The result is the same - flat (not shiny) spots.

https://www.penturners.org/threads/ca-dull-spots.142701/#post-1871031 - Dull spots, 2016

https://www.penturners.org/threads/another-ca-question.2703/#post-374215  - 2008, no picts, just same discussion.

Those picts in the links above, and your picture also are classic Sand-Through. Causes are too little CA build up and/or the other things I mentioned in an above post, all combined. I do NOT use paper towel because I am hard headed when it comes to letting the paper towel drink 3/4 of the CA and leave minuscule amounts on the blank. Calipers will tell you how thick of a layer you have, or how thin you have.

Another clarification on why you may be getting it now and not before: As your chisel gets miniscully dull, a tad more pressure is used. For the "new to turning" this is normal. This pressure alone causes a wobble that you can't see. The blank is distorted from perfectly round at different places, making high spots in some area by about .001 or .0007. When sanding, the high spots rub off. In addition to very slightly dull chisel, and as mentioned in a previous post, pressure from different situations can cause the wobble, which cause the high spots and then cause dull spots as it sands through or sands off the CA.

CA LIFTING, and cloudy "under CA" finish are different issues.


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## MyDadsPens (Jan 17, 2020)

I know this particular thread hasn't been active in a few months BUT when I use forums I search and read old threads much more often than new ones - I am usually searching for answers to problems I have and I am hoping someone has already solved it and documented it well on old posts. So here is my two cents:
1st cent - this very problem has plagued me through many years of CA finishes on many different species and mandrel/gouge systems. These GHOST or Blush spots along with the dang pin holes that collect the white polishing compound have led me to invent hundreds of new curse words and led me to switch to lacquer finish for a while. I switched back from lacquer to CA because the humidity related blush problems I was having with Humid NY weather (and lacquer is expensive to spray). Anyways I concur with sand through as a possibility but would add that mandrel saver systems keep the stress of the mandrel and put it on the bushings limiting the deflection of older systems. Also with so many people turning with sharp carbide the deflection from pressure is maybe not as prevalent as it was. Also I have had these Ghosting spots show up days or months after a pen was completed. So I am under the belief these type of CA finish issues are more related to a god of pen finishing that is not happy - maybe you were mean to the wife, kids or pets ?
Some other possibilities include:

type of wood - mine happened most often with purpleheart, cocoboolo, bloodwood, wenge, blackwood - almost never had ghosting with Paduak, oak, maple, walnut, zebrawood, olivewood, brazil coffeewood, cherry, angelique, bocote
Wet sanding, I was suspicious that there was a moisture problem causing the problem so I try to moist sand not wet sand even dry sanding for a bit this seemed to help cut down the ghosting significantly.
Oversanding - finishes need tooth to adhere (thats why you scuff sand between coats of poly) - so I stop sanding most wood blanks at 400 or 500 grit.
not using so much water in the brass tube glue phase (I use gorilla glue which suggest wetting the wood prior to glue - I use much less water now).
Letting the CA finish dry overnight before wet/moist sanding and buffing
Apply a few coats of Unwaxed Shellac spray to blanks before CA finish
use delrin bushings not waxed metal bushings for CA finish (dont want any wax getting in CA)
Most successful is to take a moment of silence before a finishing session and ask the God of CA finishes to please only take a slimline sycamore blank for sacrifice and please not any ebony or burl wood fountain pens - Oh and don't watch the neighbors wife sunbathing at anytime during the CA application sanding or buffing
Things that did not help

Accelerator use or distance - I had ghosting problems even when I was not using accelerator
CA type - I have tried many types and had success and failure with them all
wipe blank with acetone or DNA before CA ---didn't seem to help with ghosting but is good for removing dust and finger oils
temperature and humidity - for a while I was convinced I had better success at certain times and temperatures but I think in the end it was more wishful thinking
type of application material white vs blue towels vs zipbags vs craft foam again success and failure with all of them

I have sanded through during the buffing stage and to me the sand through spots look different under magnification than the ghosting or blushing spots - with mine they were always way under the top coats -and to sand down to just the spot was impossible since they were always on the 1st base coat - nothing makes me swear more than stripping several coats of buffed CA off a pen

2nd cent
I never play with finishing scrap wood --- but to gain experience with different tools or finishes I recommend buying a $5 piece of 3/4 oak - cut it into 10 pen blanks, get $4 worth of 7mm trimline pen blanks and make pens -if you screw them up you have only wasted $1.50 in wood and brass - BUT if you dont screw them up you make a $3 trimline pen and you can gift it --- to the neighbors wife - while she is sunbathing (but don't try to finish a good pen after you deliver it)


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