# True Grit



## JonathanF1968 (Sep 28, 2019)

Perhaps this is a sensitive issue, but I think we should talk about it and offer a healing space for those who have suffered.

Raise your hand if someone has teased you about your penchant for sandpaper of unusually high grit. Anybody? Know that you are not alone.

Me, I get constant abuse from my children. They find me in the hardware store sandpaper section, fondling the 2000 grit, bullying me with questions like, "Are you sure you can tell which side goes on the wood?" Or "Aren't paper towels cheaper?" So disrespectful.

Anyhow, I'm reading so many of you singing the virtues of the Abranet products. They seem to go to just 600 grit, which is where I feel like it just starts to get good. I will confess, though, that part of me wonders if using higher grit than 600 truly yields a better final outcome, or if I'm just doing it for psychological reasons.

Amazon has an assortment pack that goes from 80 to 600, that I'm tempted by, though I usually don't use coarser than 220 for turning. But I'll likely find something to do with it. The pack seems like a cost-effective way into that product line.



			https://www.amazon.com/Mirka-9A-150-APRP-4-Inch-Abranet-Assortment/dp/B001BKVZWA/ref=sr_1_1?gclid=CjwKCAjwibzsBRAMEiwA1pHZrikUN4ys2b4ksrydGXa0mHkC4db19hwEH6QsQ7o_CGDQGoY_V7xQJxoCxr8QAvD_BwE&hvadid=176309244409&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9001774&hvnetw=g&hvpos=1t3&hvqmt=e&hvrand=16128241209496223669&hvtargid=kwd-35201783853&hydadcr=73_9782595&keywords=abranet+sandpaper&qid=1569676004&refinements=p_85%3A2470955011%2Cp_72%3A2661618011%2Cp_89%3AMirka&rnid=2528832011&rps=1&s=gateway&sr=8-1
		


I guess my question is, for those of you with similar penchants for high grit, what would you use after the Abranet 600? Is the best path forward through gadgetry or psychiatry? Note that I'm only working with wood, and I don't finish with CA.


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## JimB (Sep 28, 2019)

I have some Abranet and do like it but I primarily use sandpaper. I can go up to 1500 grit when sanding, depending on what I am doing and what I want to accomplish. I don’t turn many pens any more. I am turning mostly bowls, hollow forms, lidded boxes and some spindle work. I use Klingspor sandpaper.


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## WriteON (Sep 28, 2019)

JonathanF1968 said:


> Perhaps this is a sensitive issue, but I think we should talk about it and offer a healing space for those who have suffered.
> 
> Raise your hand if someone has teased you about your penchant for sandpaper of unusually high grit. Anybody? Know that you are not alone.


There are no rules. Group hug for high grit users. Your house. Your show!!


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## jttheclockman (Sep 28, 2019)

What is wrong with good old sandpaper??  That is what I use.If I go above 800 grit I use the black wet dry paper and always use water as a lubricant. This is needed when sanding metals. I use metal inlays alot.


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## JonathanF1968 (Sep 28, 2019)

jttheclockman said:


> What is wrong with good old sandpaper??



As I understand it, the primary benefit of the Abranet is that it doesn't clog, and so it lasts longer. I'm sure that I use sandpaper longer than I should. Someone here said, "Replace sandpaper like someone else is paying for it." I have a tough time following that sage advice, due to my pennywise/pound foolish tendencies, and so to me, likely using a product that will last longer will be a better process. 

I don't think the final product will be different, though.


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## TonyL (Sep 28, 2019)

I use Abranet up to 600 or 800, then the norton's 800, 1000, 1500, and 2000. then 4 buffing wheel compunds. I also use the AO strips sometimes. followed by the norton's and buffers. its a matter of what you like to use. I use all dry. When using Abranet. I cut it in approx 3/4 inch squares, use it once maybe twice and throw it out. The AO strips and Norton's, I just use once.


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## JonathanF1968 (Sep 28, 2019)

@TonyL Could you talk more about the buffing wheel compounds/process? Is this for wood or just acrylic?


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## leehljp (Sep 28, 2019)

I have noticed that in general, "flat work" people who moved over to pen turning have a tendency to suggest lower grit SP than others. I grew up around "flat work" masters and doing flat work. I heard many times: "_Sanding too fine will prevent paint from sticking._" That was an "old wives tale" type of logic that was actually "old men's tales" - that for maybe a particular finish at one time could have been true. But not today or in the last 50 years of my 70+ years. There is another saying (truth) that makes people hold onto old "beliefs": "Most _People will believe the first thing they learned about something even when confronted with direct evidence to the contrary - rather than check out if it IS true or not._"

People who hold onto "_course sanding for painting reasons_" cannot explain how the same paint sticks to window panes and windshields so long and so well. But the last quote above explains that. I noticed a few years ago that a few (but not most) long term bowl turners coming to pen turning would chide the high turning speeds of pen turners as unnecessary - without taking into account the cutting speed differences in diameter changes.

UNLESS I want a specific texture, I go for as smooth as possible. When Possible, I will turn the blank smooth without the need for sanding. If any fine furniture maker is familiar and skillful with hand held Scrapers, those scrapers produce a slicker feel on hard wood than the finest sand paper. Precision sharpened Scrapers (and Skews) can produce this kind of smoothness on hard wood, resins and most stabilized soft woods.

I have some extremely fine sandpapers and use them on finishes before polishing.


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## DrD (Sep 28, 2019)

I tend to spend a lot of time in auto parts stores looking for & buying up yo 12000 grit sandpaper or higher when they have it.  It took me a while to learn 12000 grit MicroMesh WAS NOT the same as sandpaper 12000 grit.  While I still use a combination of Abranet, Mirlon, and MM, I tend to finish with 6000, 8000, 12000 grit paper.


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## Woodchipper (Sep 28, 2019)

Corrugated cardboard is abrasive. It wore off the paint on a refrigerator once when I moved. I don't get any reaction from anyone...including my wife who only asks if it justifies the cost.


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## tomtedesco (Sep 28, 2019)

My final on pens other than wood is 12000 MM with a white cream polish, don't care what others say, I like the results.


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## TonyL (Sep 28, 2019)

JonathanF1968 said:


> @TonyL Could you talk more about the buffing wheel compounds/process? Is this for wood or just acrylic?



There is also a copy in the libraty. I use this process for non-bare wood materials (CA, acrylic. etc)


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## donstephan (Sep 28, 2019)

The professional finisher I use for furniture yells if I sand to a grit finer than 150, because the caalyzed finishes he use call for stopping after 150 and he doesn't want to risk adhesion failure that the manufacturer won't make good.

Several years ago I knew he was wrong when he said there is no difference in the final look if wood is sanded just to 150 or to a finer grit.  So I decided it would be childs play to prove how wrong he was.  Found a nicely figured piece of cherry about 16" x 4" x 1".  Very carefully hand planed both sides with  a Lie Nelson #4, cross cut in half, then well sanded both sides of one of the two pieces with 150 grit.  Because many claim it is the clearest finish, I applied several coats of bleached shellac by french polishing.  After several years and numerous looks, I'm no longer surprised when I can't tell which is which until I look at what I wrote on the end grain.

Of course, this applies to wood, not finishes applied over wood and not acrylics and such.

I m one who sands wooden bowls to 320, but only because the finer sawdust helps me find sanding scratches.  If memory serves, the labels on many wood bowl finishes say not to sand beyond 120 or 220.

The best approach in my opinion is to make your own tests.


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## randyrls (Sep 29, 2019)

JonathanF1968 said:


> Me, I get constant abuse from my children. They find me in the hardware store sandpaper section, fondling the 2000 grit, bullying me with questions like,


Jonathan;  the local hardware stores don't have higher grits, so I satisfy my "urges" at the car parts place.  They have up to 2000 grit we/dry paper.  I've been asked  by the store people to stop "fondling" the sandpaper.


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## TonyL (Sep 29, 2019)

randyrls said:


> Jonathan;  the local hardware stores don't have higher grits, so I satisfy my "urges" at the car parts place.  They have up to 2000 grit we/dry paper.  I've been asked  by the store people to stop "fondling" the sandpaper.


My HD also carries up to 2000


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## BarryE (Sep 29, 2019)

Mostly the "old men's tales" applies to staining wood, sanding with higher grits means  less color and contrast when the excess is wiped off. 

Sanding to fine will rarely affect adhesion, but in the case of Film-building finishes it can be a waste of time,  after a couple of coats these type of finishes have enough thickness that anything over 180 or 220 has no effect...especially since you will be sanding between coats in most cases

Old Flat Wooder



leehljp said:


> I have noticed that in general, "flat work" people who moved over to pen turning have a tendency to suggest lower grit SP than others. I grew up around "flat work" masters and doing flat work. I heard many times: "_Sanding too fine will prevent paint from sticking._" That was an "old wives tale" type of logic that was actually "old men's tales" - that for maybe a particular finish at one time could have been true. But not today or in the last 50 years of my 70+ years. There is another saying (truth) that makes people hold onto old "beliefs": "Most _People will believe the first thing they learned about something even when confronted with direct evidence to the contrary - rather than check out if it IS true or not._"
> 
> People who hold onto "_course sanding for painting reasons_" cannot explain how the same paint sticks to window panes and windshields so long and so well. But the last quote above explains that. I noticed a few years ago that a few (but not most) long term bowl turners coming to pen turning would chide the high turning speeds of pen turners as unnecessary - without taking into account the cutting speed differences in diameter changes.
> 
> ...


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## leehljp (Sep 29, 2019)

BarryE said:


> Mostly the "old men's tales" applies to staining wood, sanding with higher grits means  less color and contrast when the excess is wiped off.


I agree with that but there are ways around it. I watched Japanese masters doing things that I had been taught back here when I was growing up (USA) could not be done. I think they (the ones I was around) preferred dye to stain, and smoother than courser.



> Sanding to fine will rarely affect adhesion, but in the case of Film-building finishes it can be a waste of time,  after a couple of coats these type of finishes have enough thickness that anything over 180 or 220 has no effect...especially since you will be sanding between coats in most cases
> 
> Old Flat Wooder



Yes, agreed. However, What makes a Rolls Royce or Lamborgini, or Ferrari what they are - is the going of the extra mile in engineering and finish. A good finish of very clear CA does reveal the sanding up under it. John T is correct in what he says that it only has to be as good as the eyeball can see. No need for more. However, I do see people looking through a loupe on occasion. In these cases, going beyond and above sure makes sales to high end people . . . and then that results in more sales when people find out that Mr. X bought one or two of my pens.


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## dogcatcher (Sep 29, 2019)

I have been a woodturner since the 1960's.  I bought my fisrt lathe in 1964, an AMT lathe that cost $9.95 ordered out off a Popular Mechanics ad.  Powered by used washing machine motor.  On that lathe I probably made over 200 duck calls.  Sandpaper wasn't too important in those days, nor readily available all of the time, but they were still sanded with what was available.  Today, nothing leaves my shop with less than a 500 grit sanding and a buffing.  Some see a 1200 grit, but that is what I call collector grade game calls, and the buyer pays for my sanding time.

If you do arts and craft fairs, handle some of the other woodturners work.  Take it and rub your hand over the finish, some are as particular as I am, others, not so much.  My wife is not a woodturner, but an expert on fine finished turnings and a collector of woodturners stuff.  It is fun to watch her make a decision to buy or not to buy based on the finish.  If she finds that little piece of dust, or burr, and it gets set back on the table, doesn't matter if the shape and form is perfect, the sanding and finish failed   Don't ask her why she didn't buy it, or she will give you a lecture on sandpaper and finishing techniques.  She may not turn, but she has spent a lot of time helping me with finishing and buffing.  She has also kept me to my standards.  

Every perfect finish starts with a perfect sanding.


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## BarryE (Sep 29, 2019)

leehljp said:


> I agree with that but there are ways around it. I watched Japanese masters doing things that I had been taught back here when I was growing up (USA) could not be done. I think they (the ones I was around) preferred dye to stain, and smoother than courser.
> 
> You're right of course, there are ways around it, i was talking to where the "old wife's tale" came from. it is also a difference between production work, wood crafts and high end woodwork
> As a 3rd generation wood finisher of almost 50 years, my dad passed down the use of dyes, toners and tints many years ago. The Japanese have some beautiful finishing methods that, someday I would love to learn more about.


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