# Why so Cheap



## Tony's Pens (Aug 6, 2010)

I am new to Pen Turning and have a question? 

Why would someone pay $2 for a pen kit and take the time and effort to turn a pen and then put it on eBay for $5 and $3 shipping. Does this not diminish the value of custom made pens. I understand giving pens away to friend and family but selling at a price of $5 is like giving a pen away to everyone that will pay $5.  I guess this goes along with my motto below.

Just wondering


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## corian king (Aug 6, 2010)

Hello Tony.Some people just don't have any smarts.I have seen those really low prices on ebay and those are the kind of people that makes it hard for anyone to make any money on their pens.There are alot of people on ebay and a few here that can't stand to see someone else make a dollar so they will just give away their products so they can say they made a sell. Anyway welcome aboard and enjoy all the knowledge that can be learned from this site it is a fantastic place with alot of great and friendly people!!
JIM


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## Mac (Aug 6, 2010)

I am going with the short answer as my eyelids are getting heavy.
The ? was why so cheap?
THEY ARE TO DUMB TO KNOW THE DIFFERENCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
THEY DON'T HAVE A CLUE WHAT THE REAL COST IS OR HOW TO MAKE A PROFIT...
THEY DON'T CARE ABOUT THE CRAFT ,THAT IS PENTURNING.
any or all above will fit. I ran across a guy like this about a year ago.


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## mredburn (Aug 6, 2010)

There are people who cant tell the difference between profit and cash flow. He may be trying to make a single dollar from each sale on a million sales.  He may not need the income from pen sales, therefore each sale just returns his cash investment and gives him something to do and he might make a little bit for his labor.


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## its_virgil (Aug 6, 2010)

With all due respect, it really isn't any of our business what others sell their pen for nor why they do it. And, there really isn't anything we can do about it. Actually, I don't think someone else's prices have any effect on my prices. Do a good turn daily!
Don



Tony's Pens said:


> I am new to Pen Turning and have a question?
> 
> Why would someone pay $2 for a pen kit and take the time and effort to turn a pen and then put it on eBay for $5 and $3 shipping. Does this not diminish the value of custom made pens. I understand giving pens away to friend and family but selling at a price of $5 is like giving a pen away to everyone that will pay $5.  I guess this goes along with my motto below.
> 
> Just wondering


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## chiefgreen (Aug 6, 2010)

A thought from left field - what if the pens he made where no good.  Finish was bad, fit was bad etc.  He may have just wanted to get rid of them and asked what they where actually worth, quality wise!?


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## Smitty37 (Aug 6, 2010)

*Put your pens up for auction*

Take this from someone who knows....you can put pens up for auction on eBay and they will sell for less than the kits to make them. I have started pens at $.99 and got no bids....

Additionally, whether we like it or not...there are a lot of folks out there who make pens strictly for a hobby. If they sell a pen and cover the cost of the kit and blank they are happier than a pig in mud. Their pleasure is in turning the pen, not making the sale.

That doesn't make it any harder for the rest of us to sell pens....trust me, people who are paying $5.00 for a hand turned pen aren't going to buy one for $10.00 or $20.00 or $50.00. If nobody will sell them a pen for $5.00 they won't buy one at all.

EDIT.  One other point...if one has a couple of hundred pens sitting around the house there can be a lot of money tied down....That money isn't doing one any good at all, so if one make pens for a hobby rather than a business it makes perfect sense to sell them for what he/she can get out of them even if it is less than what was paid for the parts.  It gives them some money to continue to enjoy their hobby.  Those of us who sell or want to sell our pens as a business and turn a profit, have no right to expect those who do not to do anything at all to support our prices.


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## Robert Sherlock (Aug 7, 2010)

I'm with Smitty on this one.  For me, the real enjoyment is seeing someone enjoy a pen I created. The money just gets reinvested to buy more blanks!


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## Hess (Aug 7, 2010)

I feel the same way as Smithy.  I turn mostly for the enjoyment and to see what I can do.  I do try to get 2x the kit and blank back on SL so I can get 2 kits for each kit I turn.  Now thats not to say I wont do a order for someone an charge more:biggrin:


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## Tony's Pens (Aug 7, 2010)

Thanks for everyones input.  I can now take what has been posted and go from there.

Thanks Again


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## randyrls (Aug 7, 2010)

To join the thread;   
Some time ago I was in the CEO's office and I noticed a nice pen on his desk. Cocobolo with the company logo engraved on it.  I asked him about it and he gave it to me.  He told me they get the pens from a promotional supply for about a buck each by the box and give they to customers.  They get churned out in China by the bucket-full on the same machines that make the pens, or maybe just made by slaves...   Either way the pen worked for about a week.....  I thought about fixing it, but it had some kind of a small "mini-refill" that didn't fit any of my refills.


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## ThomJ (Aug 7, 2010)

I'm with Don on this one. I charge what I charge, if someone buys so be it.


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## Rangertrek (Aug 7, 2010)

I make pens as a hobby and not a source of income.  BUT; when I sell a pen, I do want to recover my materials, equipment, and some time (labor).  At one of the first craft shows where I was a vendor, there was another pen turner there.  His prices were less than mine, as pointed out by several customers.

I walked over to his booth and checked his pens.  He was selling slims for about $10, had a few Baron style pens for $20.  The craftsmanship (words used loosely) was bad, gaps at barrels to hardware, no finish or just friction polish.  I don't know how he even covered the booth costs.  

I eventually sold several pens to people who recognized quality.  I decided you can't worry about what others do in selling their pens.  They have a reason for what they do (even if misguided). 

Those that sell at very low costs probably don't even understand all they have invested in the process of making a pen, even if it is just a hobby.  My sell prices are based on the cost of materials, consumable supplies, shop overhead, equipment, and my time.  I have been selling pens for about two years now.  Over time, my prices have risen, based on my understanding on my costs and time.


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## altaciii (Aug 7, 2010)

I closed my ebay store several weeks ago simply because I got tired of people emails with questions about pricing, stupid offers, and a slow down in sales.  As I looked at the stores history I saw fewer and fewer serious buyers inquiring but still had to pay the piper (ebay)  Seems like Ebayers were looking at other peoples pens but wanting mine for the same low Walmart pricing.  PASS! I'M OUT!  I will stick to my web site and word of mouth sales without having to put up with the B/S of ebay.


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## dbarbee (Aug 7, 2010)

I'm very new to this sector of woodworking.  It seems to me that your customer base for pen making wouldn't be affected by someone like this.  Most people seem by buy for any of the 3 reasons.

1.  Novelty
2.  Fact that the piece is handmade by someone they know
3.  Can be built to order or made from their own materials
4.  Status symbol or the fact that its something that no one else has

Notice that "the customer needed a pen" wasn't on the list.  Most people treasure what we make to much for every day use.

I guess you actual question was why would someone sell pens like this.  Who knows...maybe he has sweat shop?  Regardless of why....they won't be in business long.  I personally don't think this would affect sales at all.  Everyone knows where they can get a pen for $5...or even free.  This has always been the case.

David


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## intillzah (Aug 7, 2010)

I sell my slimlines for 10-15 bucks per pen (depends on the wood and kit finish, custom is on the higher price point and the lower price is for stuff off the shelf)  Now the aeros are 40 a piece, and the sky is the limit for customization on those.


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## keithlong (Aug 7, 2010)

I agree with Don too, I have been a woodworker for going on 30 years now and a lot of people and customers now my reputation for the quality work that I do. When I was in Vo AG in high school, my teacher instilled in our minds that if you are going to make something do your best and do quality work. I have always tried to do that. Several years ago I made a lot of Solid Cedar hope Chests to sell to make extra money. I made 3 different sizes. I sold a total of 200 of them. I gave several away as advertisement which led to the sales of the 200. When I started making pens I gave away the first ones because I figured I was in training, and it also helped me to get the word out that I am making pens. With all this said, my time is worth something and I like to sell pens to be able to keep buying supplies to make more. I do try to do the best_ I can on each _one and I still give some away. After about a year now, I am beginning to venture out and try a few new kits. Sorry for so long. Short point is I consider my time valuable and I enjoy making pens.


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## randyrls (Aug 7, 2010)

dbarbee said:


> Most people treasure what we make to much for every day use.



David;  Not true;  and probably not true of yourself either.  

My personal use pen is a Baron rollerball.  I have a Baron Fountain pen that I use too!


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## Gin N' Tonic (Aug 7, 2010)

its_virgil said:


> With all due respect, it really isn't any of our business what others sell their pen for nor why they do it. And, there really isn't anything we can do about it. Actually, I don't think someone else's prices have any effect on my prices. Do a good turn daily!
> Don



Amen Don.

I agree 100%


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## bitshird (Aug 7, 2010)

Also keep in mind they might not be turning the pens, there are quite a few coming in from China, in nice boxes that fold open, the pens are done in a wood that looks like Redwood and the boxes are pretty nice, they retail for 4.00. I saw a bunch of them in Gatlingurg last month at shops that have laser engraving. the pens are the Euro Designers and look good.


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## ThomJ (Aug 7, 2010)

Ahhhh  G-Burg, fond memories


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## DRB4381 (Aug 7, 2010)

I sell a few slimlines on Etsy for $8-10.  But as Smitty mentioned, I'm a hobbyist, so profit is not my motivation.  I'm an engineer with an MBA, so it's not that I'm "too dumb" to figure out the true cost of making a pen either.  I figure if I gross $7 on an Etsy sell, that $7 more pen stuff I can buy.  I give away a lot more pens than I have sold, too.  All of my Etsy customers have been quite happy with the product and I really don't think they were in the market for $20+ pens, so I don't think I'm hurting other people's ability to sell more expensive pens, just filling another niche.  Do I want to sell hundreds (or even dozens) of pens for $8 bucks?  Absolutely not.  I want this to be fun and not feel like a job, but I also want to "churn" some dollars to help cover new stuff.


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## RussFairfield (Aug 7, 2010)

I agree with Don. We have to keep in mind what we are making and where we are selling it. There is no way that I can make a SlimLine and compete with the guy who is selling them for $5 apiece so I don't even try. 

I still have 2 choices. I can make a better quality basic SlimLine pen that I can sell for $15 to $20, or I can make a better pen that looks different with a few custom features, but still using the same basic kit, and sell it for $40 to $50. Either way, I am selling a better pen and making a decent profit for my time. There will always be more profit in selling only one $50 pen than there is in selling 10 of the $5 pens made from the same kit parts.


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## bitshird (Aug 7, 2010)

I sell a few pens on Etsy, but not many, I still don't sell them cheap, I usually get around 20.00 for a slim line, 40 for a Sierra maybe more depending on the kit and wood, when I bother to  put them on. But I have to agree with Don and Russ, I'd rather sell one pen for 40 or 50 than 5 for 10 at shows, I don't even put slimlines out, Now that my SIL is doing shows with me he will, and I'm wondering how much this will influence my bigger sales the 75.00 and up ones.


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## Smitty37 (Aug 7, 2010)

*Chinese pens*



bitshird said:


> Also keep in mind they might not be turning the pens, there are quite a few coming in from China, in nice boxes that fold open, the pens are done in a wood that looks like Redwood and the boxes are pretty nice, they retail for 4.00. I saw a bunch of them in Gatlingurg last month at shops that have laser engraving. the pens are the Euro Designers and look good.


 
The cost in rather small quantities is in the range of $2.00 - you'd pay more than half that for just the kits in the same quantities - for the pen and $1.60 for the laser engraving. Probably half that if you get large enough quantities. There are Euros and several other styles available through my supplier.


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## bitshird (Aug 7, 2010)

Smitty37 said:


> The cost in rather small quantities is in the range of $2.00 - you'd pay more than half that for just the kits in the same quantities - for the pen and $1.60 for the laser engraving. Probably half that if you get large enough quantities. There are Euros and several other styles available through my supplier.



I'd nearly pay that for the boxes, pretty neat the way they flip open, I think that's what's showing up on feeBay. a young salesman at one of the laser shops in Gatlinburg couldn't believe it when I showed him a pen done from one of Keith Larrett's blanks. He had no idea that there were Americans that made pens,


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## Tony's Pens (Aug 7, 2010)

I feel I may need to apologize for the original question of WHY SO CHEAP. I did not mean to start such a controversial subject, I just wanted to *Understand* why someone would sell so cheap. 

Humbly yours

Tony


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## dbarbee (Aug 8, 2010)

To make money, Tony.  Is it possible to make a profit on a $5 pen.  Sure it's possible.  If you employee people in a country with a questionable human rights record, buying kits & blanks straight from the manufacturer, turning the pens on an automated lathes. You could probably make good money at $3....of course quality would suffer.

Now is some guy going to pay $1.75 for a slimline kit, $1.00 for a blank, and turn a quality product by hand for $5?  Not for long.  He could make more working at McDonalds.

David


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## its_virgil (Aug 8, 2010)

I see no need for an apology. The question is a viable one but has been asked and discussed here many times. In fact, seems that every time someone sets up at a show there is a similar thread about someone at the show selling pens for really low prices. Why do they do it? I still say it is no one's  business why and none of our previous discussions on this topic have convinced those guys to raise their prices. Make pens...have fun...charge a fair price..continue to improve...and don't let the $5 slims, $10 cigars and $20 jr gents ruffle your feathers. Those guys will always be around.
Do a good turn daily!
Don





Tony's Pens said:


> I feel I may need to apologize for the original question of WHY SO CHEAP. I did not mean to start such a controversial subject, I just wanted to *Understand* why someone would sell so cheap.
> 
> Humbly yours
> 
> Tony


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## sbwertz (Aug 8, 2010)

Smitty37 said:


> ...there are a lot of folks out there who make pens strictly for a hobby.
> ...if one make pens for a hobby rather than a business it makes perfect sense to sell them for what he/she can get out of them even if it is less than what was paid for the parts. It gives them some money to continue to enjoy their hobby. Those of us who sell or want to sell our pens as a business and turn a profit, have no right to expect those who do not to do anything at all to support our prices.


 

I turn pens for a hobby.  I have made over a hundred pens and haven't sold a one.  Three times in my life I have let my "hobby" turn into a business.  I am determined not to let it happen again.  I love turning. I don't want to make it into "work."   

I make pens for my own pleasure and to give away as gifts.  I am still a beginner, but I am beginning to make some pretty pens now. I figure after a hundred "funline" pens at $1.50 a kit, I am finally ready to try some of the nicer kits.  It took me that many to be really comfortable with my tools and finishing.  You won't find any of mine on ebay, but if you would like one, I'll give it to you!

Sharon


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## Smitty37 (Aug 8, 2010)

*Post*



dbarbee said:


> To make money, Tony. Is it possible to make a profit on a $5 pen. Sure it's possible. If you employee people in a country with a questionable human rights record, buying kits & blanks straight from the manufacturer, turning the pens on an automated lathes. You could probably make good money at $3....of course quality would suffer.
> 
> Now is some guy going to pay $1.75 for a slimline kit, $1.00 for a blank, and turn a quality product by hand for $5? Not for long. He could make more working at McDonalds.
> 
> David


 Yea, but if you take a look at Timberbits post about where kits were made....you're probably buying at least some of your stuff from that same country...

In general, the alternative is not buying things made in this country...it's buying from some other place that works 12 year olds 12 hours a day for 12 cents an hour.  And, that might be the family's only income.  125 or so years ago or maybe even less, that was here... We fixed it here but, we can't fix there.


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## Wood Butcher (Aug 8, 2010)

It is my belief that ONLY the one who creates a work can set the price.  That person is the ONLY ONE who knows what it is worth.
That'll cost ya a penny.


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## arioux (Aug 8, 2010)

its_virgil said:


> With all due respect, it really isn't any of our business what others sell their pen for nor why they do it. And, there really isn't anything we can do about it. Actually, I don't think someone else's prices have any effect on my prices. Do a good turn daily!
> Don




Amen


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## Glenn McCullough (Aug 8, 2010)

I am in with Don, people buy his pens because they want a Don Ward pen. He's created that reputaion and people will pay for that. I experience the same to the tune of 100+ pens a year. But I will tear a pen down and redo it before I would take less than its value. I have discounted them or donated them to charities, but that is it. I never charge a family member, but make it clear that they are to bring me business and at full price...they bring me alot of business, too.


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## penmaker1967 (Aug 9, 2010)

i agree with the people in here i try to double my money on a pen so i can but more stock i hope to make my pen turning into a bussiness when i retire from the state but till that day i will keep selling mine for what i sell them for i have found out that it is where u are at as to what u can sell them for if it is a good craft show u can get the money out of them if is a flea market or farmers market u have to ( AT LEAST FOR ME ) i have to lower the price on them so i keep 15 or 20 pens on hand for that type of sale it works for me so i will keep on doing what i love and enjoy doing.


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## Moosewatcher (Aug 12, 2010)

Very few people make a living selling hand made pens.  The competition is very keen.  Everyone who retires either buys a lathe and trys to sell pens for a living or buys a lawn mower and a new 4 wheel drive pickup and goes into landscaping.  None do all that well.  The trick to making money selling pens is mass marketing of imported pens (ie., cheap foreign labor) and the trick to making money landscaping is to use mass marketing of someone elses labor (ie., illegal immigrants).  

I don't make much selling pens but the bulk of what I do make comes from repeat customers.  Sometimes I like to make the rent on my website and I will put some pens "on sale".  The curious thing is I can have 20 pens "on sale" and will only get orders for full price pens.  People buy what strikes their fancy.  A person who can afford $30 to $160 for a pen doesn't care what the price is.  What they see is an image in their minds eye of them with that pen, and so they buy it.  So price your pens to what you think they will sell for and if they don't sell adjust your thinking.  But don't think plus or minus $10 on the price of a pen is the difference.  Its the picture, the description, the look of the pen, and the meeting between the right person and the right pen.

Ken


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## Willee (Aug 12, 2010)

I would tell anyone that asked about cheaper pens they saw somewhere that only the pen maker knows what his work is worth.
If you want cheap craftsmanship and second rate materials ... you dont want my work.

Never talk bad about someone elses work.
Just simply explain why you think yours is better.
If you cant do that ... perhaps you need to think about your skills as a craftsman.

Willee

Here is a twist I made today.
Asking price ... $100


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## titan2 (Aug 12, 2010)

Willee said:


> I would tell anyone that asked about cheaper pens they saw somewhere that only the pen maker knows what his work is worth.
> If you want cheap craftsmanship and second rate materials ... you dont want my work.
> 
> Never talk bad about someone elses work.
> ...


 

*Now that's a pretty pen......maybe a tad too cheap!!!* 


Barney


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## 1080Wayne (Aug 12, 2010)

Willee
 Beautiful $150 pen


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## Willee (Aug 12, 2010)

I have seen some people talk about retirement and pen making.
Here is my take on that.

If you and some others in your area would go in on a small shop somewhere and set up a retail sales store you might have a chance of making the bills. Instead of competing with each other join forces and you all would benefit.

It could be something for just around the holidays.
Make pens all year, rent a shop, and sell over the holidays.

I priced a padoga at the mall last year ... way too much!

As a Side note ... a few years ago the local wood working club sponsored a booth at a crafts fair.
I set up a lathe and made pens on the spot.
They taxed each member 50% of what he sold.
They collected the money on what was sold so they could keep track of what you owed them.
I was the only pen maker there and was also the biggest sales contributor to the clubs fund.
My pens sold like hot cakes.  Could not make them fast enough.
Do you think I got so much as a thank you from the club?
No ... even had to wait a month to get my money from them.
That was the last year I was a member of that club.

Willee


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## RussFairfield (Aug 12, 2010)

I have always agreed with Don's comments about the people who sell their pens and other work at very low prices. These people are in this as a hobby. All they want are their costs for kits and materials. They don't consider the costs of tools and shop, and for many of them these are a free part of the park they are living in. The woodturning world is full of them. The only thing we can do is not compete with them, and that is often easier to do then we think it would be. The worst thing we can do is write them off as incompetent because many of them do excellent work.


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## Dudley Young (Aug 12, 2010)

Smitty37 said:


> Take this from someone who knows....you can put pens up for auction on eBay and they will sell for less than the kits to make them. I have started pens at $.99 and got no bids....
> 
> Additionally, whether we like it or not...there are a lot of folks out there who make pens strictly for a hobby. If they sell a pen and cover the cost of the kit and blank they are happier than a pig in mud. Their pleasure is in turning the pen, not making the sale.
> 
> ...


 
I agree.


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