# Home Stabilization



## RPM (Dec 17, 2004)

Forgive me if this topic has been been brought up before, but I was unable to find any references to it.  I have read many threads here regarding home brewed vacuum setups for impregnating blanks with urathane, but I have not seen any discussion of using foodsaver.  I have no idea the level of vacuum that they pull, but it seems to me to be a natural.  It has a built in attachment for mason jars.  We use one in our kitchen almost daily.  Has anyone tried this?  If not, I may have to.
Richard


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## Fred in NC (Dec 17, 2004)

Worth a try, Richard.  As long as it does not suck the stabilizing liquid into the machine, since it will foam up at some point.  Please let us know the results.


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## RPM (Dec 17, 2004)

I should have also asked about urathane of preference.  The threads that I have read don't seem to discuss this.  I have a boatload of the the Minwax Polycrylic.  The water clean up of a potential mess has an appeal to me or should it be oil based?
Richard


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## Fred in NC (Dec 17, 2004)

Richard, I use PolyCrylic myself as a pen finish.  It will clean with water as long as not set.  When set it is easy to peel off smooth  surfaces like glass and bushings.  Worth a try.


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## DCBluesman (Dec 17, 2004)

Check this link out.  It might be useful. http://www.penturners.org/content/polyurethane1.pdf


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## elody21 (Jan 9, 2005)

> _Originally posted by RPM_
> <br />Forgive me if this topic has been been brought up before, but I was unable to find any references to it.  I have read many threads here regarding home brewed vacuum setups for impregnating blanks with urathane, but I have not seen any discussion of using foodsaver.  I have no idea the level of vacuum that they pull, but it seems to me to be a natural.  It has a built in attachment for mason jars.  We use one in our kitchen almost daily.  Has anyone tried this?  If not, I may have to.
> Richard


Hi I just found your message. I have a foodsaver and have been toying with the idea of using it for blanks for quite some time. I hesatate because of the fear or contaminating the unit. At the cost I do not want to ruin it for food useage. Have you gotten up the nerve to try your foodsaver for stabalizating blanks?
I had read a message that stated that they got a venturi pump from Harbor Freight. I cannot seem to find it on their web page. Does any one know where I could get one?


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## low_48 (Jan 9, 2005)

Here's the link to the Harbor Freight item. It does require a pretty strong air compressor.

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=3952

Rich


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## Fred in NC (Jan 9, 2005)

Harbor Freight venturi vacuum pump:

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=3952

This type of vacuum pump takes a LOT of air to operate.  You will need a good sized air compressor.  My pancake compressor will not work with it.


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## elody21 (Jan 9, 2005)

Thanks for the info. All I have is a small compressor too. Thanks anyway!


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## Guest (Jan 10, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Fred in NC_
> <br />Harbor Freight venturi vacuum pump:
> 
> http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=3952
> ...


Fred,
I have the HF pump and my compressor was purchased from them also.What I did was install 2 1/4" ball valves on the maifold.One on the input side and one on the suction side.(I had to change the fitting on the suction side to pipe thread instead of the HVAC thread that came with the unit.
I also installed a Vacuum gauge in the suction side.
To operate teh "pump" I open up the suction side of the manifold,then I open up the supply valve.Depending on how much vacuum you can pull on the first shot,keep an eye on the vac. gauge.When it maxes out shut the vac valve first and then the supply valve.
Let your pancake compressor recover it's pressure.
I  can normally get 26" or better on one shot this way but your pancake may take more.
I keep the maifold hooked up to the chamber and repeat the process when I see the gvacuum gague needle fall.
I keep repeating this until I don't get any more bubbles out of the material I am stabilizing.


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## bnosie (Jan 10, 2005)

Here's what I use:

http://www.pump-n-seal.com/

It's really simple, poke a hole in a jar lid and stick the little check valve on, and then put the pump on top and start pumping.  I was able to get almost 27" HG vacuum, more than I could with my Mityvac hand pump.  I got a HF venturi pump, but haven't set it up yet.


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## Old Griz (Jan 10, 2005)

Bill, I ordered one of those to experiment with... don't have a compressor at all.. glad to hear you are able to pull that kind of vacuum.... do you use a double jar system or do you just use it on the jar that contains the stabilizer and wood..


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## bnosie (Jan 10, 2005)

Tom,

I just use a single quart wide-mouth jar.  I don't drill my blanks, but cut them  and lay them down, and put a piece of screen on them with a weight to hold them under.  It takes quite a few pumps, but works well.  I will re-pump a few times and more bubbles will come out of the blanks.  I don't drill them because air gets trapped in it and then sucks back in after the vacuum is released.


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## elody21 (Jan 10, 2005)

Hey, 
Thanks bnoise. That is exactly the item I have been looking for!!  I could not remember the name of the pump. I am going to order one today.!


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## penhead (Jan 10, 2005)

Bill and Tom and anyone else using this pump-n-seal...are you using anything to measure the vacuum you are pulling...and if so..what..?

Thanks,
JohnPayton


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## bnosie (Jan 10, 2005)

I used the vacuum gauge from my Mityvac pump attached to a jar.


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## loneeagle (Jan 10, 2005)

You guys be careful using glass jars. They can and have been known to disintegrate. Vacuum puts stress on a container just like pressure.


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## Guest (Jan 10, 2005)

> _Originally posted by loneeagle_
> <br />You guys be careful using glass jars. They can and have been known to disintegrate. Vacuum puts stress on a container just like pressure.


[?][?][?][?][?][?][?][?]

would you point out a link to substantiate that?
Glass jars when commercially processed are subjected to more vacuum pressure than is possible in a hoe workshop situation.

In all truth you would be more likely to explode a jarthan with pressure than  implode it implode it with a vacuum..
Your seal would no doubt break first.


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## loneeagle (Jan 10, 2005)

You guys need to be careful!!! Glass jars can and have been known to disintegrate. Vacuum places stress on a vessel just as pressure does.


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## cjthomas (Jan 10, 2005)

I must agree with Eagle here.  Canning jars are designed to withstand sub atmoshperic pressures.


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## Guest (Jan 10, 2005)

> _Originally posted by loneeagle_
> <br />You guys need to be careful!!! Glass jars can and have been known to disintegrate. Vacuum places stress on a vessel just as pressure does.


Yep, and pens fly off a lathe.
I thought you might prove your remark.
Repitition does not make a ridiculoius statement any more believeable.[^]


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## penhead (Jan 10, 2005)

Umm, while eaglesc and Chris have valid points that _canning_ jars are designed to withstand pressures...there may be others who are not aware that a  cheap vege jar from the thrift store may not be as good a quality as a _Mason_ jar that was made for canning/preserving foods.  I think that is correct...right..?

JohnPayton


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## loneeagle (Jan 10, 2005)

Sorry about the double post. When I put the first one on I didn't think it went through so I tried again.
As far as the link I have not looked. I am speaking from personal experience. We built one in a machine shop out of a gallon jar and used an automotive type vacuum pump to evacuate. What happened was not pretty. Whether it was a freak accident, bad jar etc. I don't know. It convinced me to go to schedule 80 PVC. I am not an authority or engineer on this subject. I was just passing on what happened.


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## RPM (Jan 10, 2005)

No, I havn't gotten up the nerve to try it yet.  I'm still in the research stage (I tend to overthink somethings).  I did email tilia (manufacturers of the Foodsaver) and surprisingly got a good response to my technical questions about their product.  All foodsavers pull a vacuum out of the box of 24" mercury at sea level.  The piston is nylon.  I'm leaning more toward the a hybrid of the harbor freight $9 pump coupled with the mason jar attachment that goes with the foodsaver.  Amazon.com has the mason jar attachment for under $10.

With regard to the safety issues, vacuums can be dangerous.  However, the fact that a foodsaver pulls a 24" vacuum on a mason jar demonstrates that all of the approaches discussed here are within design limits of the jar.  Foodsaver is not going to market a product that operates near the design limits of the jar.  Additionally, as Eagle said above, the seal and the lid is more likely to fail first.

Just my thoughts,
Richard


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## elody21 (Jan 10, 2005)

I have 4 - 1/2 blanks of buckeye burl in a jar of plexiglass melted with acetone. I first put them in a jar of straight acetone to hopefully saturate them vacumed them with the foodsaver and then in the plexiglass solution and vacumed them again. My first thought is that them are not fully saturated with the mixture. I am going to leave them in the jar for a few days and see if they sink . Then I will dry them and see what happens. I will let you know if it works, but my gut feeling is no.


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## bnosie (Jan 10, 2005)

My experience has been to weight the blanks down so they are completely submerged when the vacuum is released, so that the liquid is sucked into the blank.  If any of the blank is above the surface, then air is sucked back into the blank, not the stabilizing solution.


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## Fred in NC (Jan 10, 2005)

I agree with Bill.  Maybe the blanks are lighter then the plexiglass solution and they just float.  Keep them down with some weight.


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## Guest (Jan 10, 2005)

Uh you  guys need to rethink the situation.
IF you are using acetone and plexi(From what I gather that is what the Bondo mix is)once you pull teh vacuum,the part being stabilized will eventually get saturated with teh mixture.I don't weigh down my corn cobs,eventually they sink on their own.Even if you do not pull 26" of vacuum,anything more than atmosphereic pressure will pull air OUT of the material and it will be displaced with your solution.
The part that you are forgtting is whether you keep the article submerged or not,once you pull it out of the solution and the acetone evaporates the space it took up while being a liquid will be replaced with air.
If you have a 50-50 mix of acetone and plexi, once the acetone evaporates only half the void will be "solid"
As far as anything made with nylon,I think the acetone "vapors" will eventually melt it.
Just WAG.
Lone Eagle what exactly did happen when whatever you did did it?


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## Guest (Jan 10, 2005)

> _Originally posted by penhead_
> <br />Umm, while eaglesc and Chris have valid points that _canning_ jars are designed to withstand pressures...there may be others who are not aware that a  cheap vege jar from the thrift store may not be as good a quality as a _Mason_ jar that was made for canning/preserving foods.  I think that is correct...right..?
> 
> JohnPayton


nope


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## Mac In Oak Ridge (Jan 10, 2005)

"cheap vege jar from the thrift store may not be as good a quality as a _Mason_ jar that was made for canning/preserving foods. I think that is correct...right..?"

That cheap vegie jar is subjected to exactly the same vacuum that a Mason jar is subjected to.  It is just as sturdy.

I bought a rather large heavy glass jar from Hobby Lobby.  It is about 6" dia and 10" tall. Has a Stainless Steel lid with a rather nice seal on it.  That is my current vacuum chamber.  I have pulled 27" Hg. vacuum on it quite a few times and it has held up nicely.  Thinking about going back and getting a few more.


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## loneeagle (Jan 10, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Eaglesc_
> <br />Uh you  guys need to rethink the situation.
> IF you are using acetone and plexi(From what I gather that is what the Bondo mix is)once you pull teh vacuum,the part being stabilized will eventually get saturated with teh mixture.I don't weigh down my corn cobs,eventually they sink on their own.Even if you do not pull 26" of vacuum,anything more than atmosphereic pressure will pull air OUT of the material and it will be displaced with your solution.
> The part that you are forgtting is whether you keep the article submerged or not,once you pull it out of the solution and the acetone evaporates the space it took up while being a liquid will be replaced with air.
> ...


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## loneeagle (Jan 10, 2005)

Only thing left was the bottom.


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## Guest (Jan 10, 2005)

> _Originally posted by loneeagle_
> <br />Only thing left was the bottom.


Boy when you explain it like that it's easy to undertand what and why it happened!


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## RPM (Jan 10, 2005)

With regard to Eagle's ovservation that the evaporation of acetone will leave voids I agree.  In my opinion, voids in the wood are not what is causing the problem.  Its the fiber or lack thereof.  So it follows that if the solution leaves behind the acrylic soaked into the material and on the surfaces of the "void", you have somewhat stabiized the situation by creating an acrylic "matrix".  The only way to totally eliminate the void would be to use a resin that is set by way of introduction of a catalyst (like epoxy).  An example would be the crystal material used in awards and paperweights etc.  To make that feasible, a material with sufficient open time would have to be used to allow the penetration under vacuum prior to setting up and also enough time to remove the blank from the remaining material.  Otherwise, you wind up with a nicely stablized blank entombed in solid acrylic inside a jar.


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## loglugger (Jan 10, 2005)

I cut and drill the blanks and can get 12- 2 1/8" x 1/2" blanks standing on end, weighted down with a screen, with a weight on top of the screen- in a olive jar that will just barely fit into a gallon jar. I use an old 1/2 H.P. piston air compressor with the suction line hooked to where the intake filter was.The line goes into a hole in the lid of the one gallon jar, along with a vaccum guage, it draws 24 to 25 on the guage. I have been using Varathane but it takes about a month to fully dry in an unheated shop. Its been working pretty good through a couple of hundred pens......


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## loglugger (Jan 10, 2005)

I want to thank everyone on the penturners forum because this is where I got most of my ideas to do this. Hope it helps somebody else !! The compressor is an old 1940's .


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## Guest (Jan 10, 2005)

HEy Loglugger-
Do you think  the fumes from the varathane has any adverse effects of the comrpessor?


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## loglugger (Jan 11, 2005)

Eagle, I have not noticed any deference in how it is working. Still as strong as ever.I have done well over 100 pens this way. With the jar inside a jar I don't think you can get any liquid into the piston parts. This old compressor isn't mutch 1 cylinder small maybe 1 1/2" bore, 1940's but it is all metal inside and out. I am not sure if I would try it with a newer one if it was worth very mutch. Check 2nd hand or hock shops. Make sure you can hook a hose to the intake.


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