# Pen styles, new ideas, etc.



## punkinn (Aug 18, 2006)

So I was surfing today and ended up at joon.com perusing the high-end pens for sale there.  I came away with some great new ideas (now to figure out how to implement them!) and wondered if anyone else did the same to liven up your offerings?   I also need to figure out where the people are who are buying these $2,000 to $6,000 pens - I wanna talk to them!   

And wouldn't it be great to be able to customize our pen hardware more?  I know some of you have ventured into the embedded clips and swapping out fountain pen nibs, etc.  It's too bad we're stuck with the kits, really.  There should be more options.  

Just thinking... 
Have a good weekend everybody.  
Nancy


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## ctEaglesc (Aug 18, 2006)

The options are there we just haven't thought of them yet.[^]


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## alamocdc (Aug 18, 2006)

> _Originally posted by cteaglesc_
> <br />The options are there we just haven't thought of them yet.[^]



Agreed. Our only limitation is our own imagination. Like I always told (and continue to tell) my kids, "You can do anything you want to do if you have the want to bad enough."


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## Daniel (Aug 18, 2006)

the way I see it there is a wide margin between making pens with kit parts, and full out custom made pens, the skills are very different, the tools as well as the expense in making a pen are considerable. you will need to be able to cast, machine parts, get an education in the correct design of a pen, have at least a few jewelers skills, with some carving, sculpting, and a hand full of other crafts in you. at least some knowledge of metals, platings, and the resources to get those done. and then a way to access the market for them. but it is not impossible. I don't think it is impossible to shorten the gap betwen kit pens and custom pens either. I'm just not sure that gap can actually be bridged.


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## txbob (Aug 18, 2006)

Hi Nancy,

Some of us try to keep up with the pens offered by Joon and others. Swisher is my favorite supplier. Levengers offers some unique pens that are interesting, and their offerings change frequently. Seeing the latest advertisements and reviews in Pen World Magazine is a big help in generating new design ideas. My favorite manufacturer is Lamy, a German company with some unusual offerings like their Pico pen. Rotring is another favorite.

Where are these folks buying expensive pens? Several are here on this forum. I've collected pens for 40 years, and I've made pens for 10 years or so. Over half my collection are commercially produced pens,  but I'm proud to also have pens from some members of this list.

I certainly don't think we've exhaused the possibilities of the pen kits, especially the slim lines. Add to that the keychain kit that uses the mini-refill from Rotring, and there are a lot designs to be tried. I've gotten very bored with twist pens, so I've been designing around click mechanisms from purchased pens, instead of using kits. And I bought a metal lathe so I can make more of the parts myself. My problem isn't the lack of ideas to try, but the lack of shop time.

Keep on turning,

txbob  &lt;-- in beautiful downtown Wyoming for another month


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## vick (Aug 18, 2006)

I often look at retail pen sites to get ideas.  I believe all that most turners are missing to do some wonderfull thing is the ability to do threading (a metal lathe) and an options for after market clips.  I cant find the link that I have at work but one of the online pen magazines talked about a guy at pen shows that makes custom pen with any nib section you want.  He has a dragon clip on his pen that he has a local metal caster make for him.  It is trully amazeing classic looking pens.  I am sure someone else has read the article and can find the link.  Also you must ask if you are doing this for profit will the extra work pay off it seems many serious collector only pay top dollar for well known brands and vintage pens.


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## DCBluesman (Aug 18, 2006)

http://tinyurl.com/lj77t  'Nuff said?


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## TheHeretic (Aug 18, 2006)

amazing!!   One thinks about what we have done in the past and where we are at now.  And yes we have done some amazing pieces.   I say that now as I have moved past most slim-lines and am working on others.   


Dean


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## vick (Aug 18, 2006)

This topic got me thinking, I know very scary.  My comment about a metal lathe was spurred by my desire to get away from a kit pen which was just one of the topics talked about in the original post.  It realy had nothing to do with the 2,000 to 3,000 price range also discussed.  My thinking goes like this their are only 3 part on a foutain pen that I feal cannot be easily created in a home metal shop.  The Nib, feed and clip. Eliminateing the kit will not make your pen a high dollar item on its own.  Most of the really high dollar pens I see either have somekind of artistic talent such a Makei or use precious metal or gems in their design.
The Gisi's work has two of these attributes 
1.  The artistic design and skill that goes into the wood patterns.  As well as the artistic talent to carve their own sterling silver clip.
2.  The use of sterling silver through out their pens in the centerband, clip as well as through out the pen.

Well I believe that many of the craftsman on this site if properly equiped could learn the metal working skills to create a pen with with out a kit (just feed and nib).  Some people, myself included will never have the artistic ability to make the very high end pens.  Keep in mind that these pens also have a much higher cost to make in time and materials.


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## ctEaglesc (Aug 19, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Daniel_
> <br />the way I see it there is a wide margin between making pens with kit parts, and full out custom made pens, the skills are very different, the tools as well as the expense in making a pen are considerable. you will need to be able to cast, machine parts, get an education in the correct design of a pen, have at least a few jewelers skills, with some carving, sculpting, and a hand full of other crafts in you. at least some knowledge of metals, platings, and the resources to get those done. and then a way to access the market for them. but it is not impossible. I don't think it is impossible to shorten the gap betwen kit pens and custom pens either. I'm just not sure that gap can actually be bridged.



When I read this I immediately thought of the Gisi's.
(DC beat me to it with his reply)
I had the priveledge to see and hold both Mark and Brians work last weekend.
I made an amazing discovery.
The "guts" to many of their remarkable pieces of work are exactly the same as I used for my herringbone fountain pen.(_ordered"off the shelf and I made it my goal to make as many (edit in) [components] invisable as I could._ I used only a woodworking lathe with Harbor freight chisels and occasionally an old cutting edge from a pair of "double cuts" that was high speed steel.(I save EVERYTHING)
I once made a post about "thinking outside the box" a search in the archives will bring it up.(do it late at night when the server isn't too busy)
What I discovered when seeing the Gisis' work and other <b>high end </b>pen crafters(not the manufacturers, they are for the most part selling their name.)is there are very few who were willing to stray way from the b2b, drill the blank, turn and finish the pen, assemble it.There weren't many individual pen crafters at the D.C. show but for those that were there you could move them from their booth to someone else's, the work lacked that imaginiation. I also found  it interesting that the Gisi's work that started with a "kit" commanded <b>MUCH</b>higher prices than the $50.00 kits and a pretty piece of wood with a decent finish.In other words just because you buy a 2 tone gold kit that costs a lot doesn't drive the pen up much more than the increase of the kit.You are not getting that money the kit supplier is.
If you want to command the higher prices  you are speaking about, you will have to "think outside the box" and make DIFFERENT pens, not necessarily better and making your own components is not necessarily the answer.
I recently came close to braeaking the $250.00 sale barrier.It was a package deal with more than one pen in the sale but there were other extenuating circumstances that dissuade me from saying that I did break it.My point is what I learned from the experience in the challenge of making that particular pen can be applied to the "next" "high end pen I want to make.It won't be a pen that has a bunch of visible "kit parts" Those are the kind that when people see them they say "I can do that!"
Any one is welcome to do so.
(If you want to read more about a topic such as this, try searching:
"the elsuive $250.00 pen"
It's a thread started by DCbluesman about a year ago.)
<b>The elusive 250 pen thread</b>
http://www.penturners.org/forum/topic.asp?ARCHIVE=true&TOPIC_ID=6736&SearchTerms=elusive,pen


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## bonefish (Aug 19, 2006)

Never having heard of $5000.00 pens or joon, I also visited their site a few minutes ago.

One thing that I noticed was that no matter the cost of the pens, they all used commonly available re-fills, except for the fountain pens.

Which means that any of us can purchase a $1.00 to $5.00 ball point or roller refill, and make a pen every bit as good as any of the $5,000.00 pens.

By every bit as good, I mean writing quality, which, after all, is the basic function of the pen, regardless of cost.

I guess designing and making the parts that enclose the refill is where the big money comes in. Now, if only I could figure that out...[]

Bonefish


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## btboone (Aug 19, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Daniel_
> I'm just not sure that gap can actually be bridged.



The sticking point for any of us is the nib or refill. It's not a bad thing that we have to use one that the consumer can get readily.  I looked into making my own nib in titanium way back when, and quickly looked right back out of it.  There are people who have been making high end fountain pen nibs for decades.  There's no practical way for any of us to do that. Why not design around them?  There are a lot of brand name ones out there that we can design around without infringing upon their designs.  You might not be able to mention their names in the ads, but when it's time for a new one, the customer can get another.

It does take getting tricky with making fittings and using parts and taps that are not easily found.  But if you design the parts, they can be made by someone.  The biggest factor in my mind is designing them to stand out in a market that has seen a lot of offerings over the years, so is really difficult to come up with a new and unique look.  I would agree that having a nice finish is not enough for the high end market.  The pen needs a "hook", a reason for the design.  All the big selling ones have the special Albert Einstein edition or the Golden Proportion pen, or whatever.  That's the tough part.  To get all those crazy looking parts to fit together and actually work properly as a unit and look unique is the biggest challenge.  

We have more tools at our disposal than what we normally think of as our tools.  Parts can be cast or hammered from sheet or glued up from composites or made in the shop down the street or whatever.  It really takes retraining the mind to consider having a barrel cast in silver because that's not what we're use to or have experience with.  The information is out there.  The step by step instructions on any basic manufacturing process are out there too.  It's just hard to think in those terms sometimes.  Designing with that much detail is hard work also.  It takes doing it to get better at it.  You find little details along the way to improve on the next one.


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## Scott (Aug 21, 2006)

I really like this topic!  

First of all let me say that there is nothing wrong with pen kits or kit pens.  Face it, if it weren't for simple, easy pen kits, most of us would never have taken the leap into making pens at all.  I am very grateful that there were people who made up pen kits so I could use them to make my own pens!

But just as I am glad there are pen kits, I also want to encourage people to break free of the limitations of pen kits!  And by saying this, I don't mean that we should all do without pen kits, but rather we should strive not to be limited by them!  There are some penmakers who are doing some amazing work, utilizing pen kits as it suits them, but not being limited by them.  Daniel mentioned he didnâ€™t think the gap between kit pens and truly unique high-end pens could ever be bridged, and I believe that to be true, in as much as we canâ€™t expect the kit makers to bridge that gap for us.

Then there are those who seek to go beyond, and make something truly new and unique.  You've already heard from Bruce Boone and Texas Bob (Bob Swartzendruber) who I feel are two of the most innovative penmakers in terms of not using kits, and they have both said that some parts they don't make from scratch.  While not part of a "kit", they still utilize parts from other pens.  To make everything from scratch is interesting, but it is such a huge investment in time, money and tooling, that it is more practical to use parts from those who make them well, such as nibs and sections, or in Bob's case, the click mechanisms.

If I were to make a truly unique, high-end fountain pen, I would design that pen around a high quality nib and section that is readily available.  If I wanted to make a Rollerball, I would design around the best Rollerball refill available.  If I wanted to design a click-pen, I would try to find the most reliable click mechanism that could be modified to my use.

Bruce is right in talking about high-end pens with a â€œhookâ€.  Most of the really big-money fountain pens are still just fountain pens.  The â€œhookâ€ is in whatever special theme or design incorporated into that pen.    By the same token, there is nothing that keeps us, normal pen makers, from making a special pen with a â€œhookâ€.  It is not the absence, or the presence of pen kit parts that will make or break a high-end pen.  Rather it is the presence, or absence of the pen makerâ€™s artistic vision that will make or break that pen!  Develop your vision, and you will develop that unique high-dollar pen.

Scott.


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## Jake Byrd (Aug 21, 2006)

WOW!  I have never seen the Gisi's pens before-they are incredible!  Wish I could figure out how to make some like them[]


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## Daniel (Aug 21, 2006)

Some more insight into my thoughts. The main reason I question that the gap between Penturner (Use of kits) and Penmaker (Custom made parts) is that at some point you simply move to the other side of the gap. the way I see it there are four main components that are made by the penmaker that are not made by the penturner. Finial, Center band, and clip and End Cap. nibs are pretty much beyond the reach of everyone but the manufacturers of them adn as far as I know both penturner and penmaker are limited to those selections.
an example of more creative latitude. While still not having to re-equip the basic pnturners shop. Would be CSUSA Clip and Center band selection for some of it's pen styles. My thinking is something along the line of a bead store. where vast numbers of styles and finishes are available that could be mixed and matched to a basic tube, refill and twist mechanism. this still leaves the manufacture of parts to the big boys, but would make possible variaton nearly limitless.
my question is, is a pen barrel simply a pen barrel wrapped around kit components?(regardles of how difficult it was to make that barrel) or is there a point that enough craftsmanship has been added that it no longer qualifies as a kit pen?
I ask this because each of us probably has there own idea about where the threshold is.
I am trying to locate a picture of the pen that comes to my mind when I think of custom pens. It is called "Black Panthers Dream" if anyone knows where this picture cna be found please post it here in this thread. it used to be my screensaver but I lost it when I got to playing around with my computer to much [:I]
there is anouther called the  Michal Angelo but it is not nearly as popular and would be harder to locate a picture of.
anyway I will keep looking for the Black Panther.


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## Daniel (Aug 21, 2006)

I went and poked around Joon. and found these examples.
although not the pen I was looking for they will do. Here is an example of a rather simple (In comparison to others) but still custom pen.

Cellini Limited Edition
Inspired by the master Italian jeweller, the Cellini limited edition fountain pen is a true work of art. Handcrafted sterling silver barrel with a solid 18kt gold nib and a built-in piston filling system. Only 1,919 pieces are available worldwide.








this pen is listed for Retail Price:	$ 2500.00
the primary reason this pen would fall into the custom catagory for me is the hand crafted barrel that I assume was made by hand engraving.

Here is an example of two that fall well within what any of us could do.








this is the fountain pen version and is listed at. Retail Price:	$ 475.00

It has a rollerball version for Retail Price:	$ 350.00

First I'm thinkin we have our stuff priced way to low. Second how much does name play into the price that customers will pay. from what I see a lot of what is shown on Joon looks like it has inspired the makers of our kits. does anyone have any experience with having priced there pens int he $300-$500 range?


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## vick (Aug 22, 2006)

If anyone was curious here is a link to the guy I was talking about that was making custom pens using existing nibs and feeds.
bruno cosini
http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php?s=93c93961562fa06a8b85ddbfe2cb1ce0&showtopic=14236
I originally searched for him after seeing him mentioned in this article
http://www.stylophilesonline.com/07-06/07port.htm

I am not crazy about the centerbandless style he is doing but if you read the entire first link where it talks about the vacume filling I found that very interesting.

edited - you can also look st some other custom pen makers by following this link
http://www.penhero.com/PenBookmarks_CustomPens.htm
including our own Scott Meyer


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## Kaspar (Aug 22, 2006)

> _Originally posted by punkinn_
> <br />So I was surfing today and ended up at joon.com perusing the high-end pens for sale there.








_*wow*_


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## Daniel (Aug 22, 2006)

Now that is an example along the lines of the Black Panther I mentioned before. The turning part is sort of an after thought with something like that.


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## bobaltig (Aug 23, 2006)

Nancy:

This topic has fascinated me for some time.  I don't sell my pens, but someday I may.  One of the big reasons I don't sell pens is that I don't want to be bothered at this point in my life.  I just want pen making to be fun for now, and I get my rewards from seeing the smiles on the faces of those who receive my pens as gifts.  I also enjoy getting surprises in the mail.  Just yesterday, I received a beautiful framed photograph of Lake Tenaya in Yosemite that someone sent me as a thank you for the fountain pen I made for them.

But another reason I don't want to get into selling is based on an experience I had at a store selling Mont Blanc fountain pens in San Francisco.  I didn't feel comfortable in the store right from the start.  There was plenty of what I call "Snob Appeal" floating around that place.  That just isn't me.  I get really uncomfortable being around pseudo culture type people.

Just for the heck of it, I asked the salesman why the Mont Blanc were so highly valued.  He said it was because of the "precious resins" used to craft the pen.  My son was with me and he broke up laughing immediately.  I started laughing too, almost immediately.  I looked at the salesman and said, what's so damn precious about plastic.  We walked out of the store shaking our heads and wondering how that "Snob" thought we could be so gullible.

I firmly believe if you want to go after the high end market, you will have to become involved in that kind of B*** S***, and I just don't care to do that.

I just quickly looked over a few fountain pens at Joon.com and noticed something interesting.  I didn't see a single high end pen made of wood!  They were all made from synthetic or man made materials.  I find that very telling.  I think the high end pen market is about as plastic as the stuff the pens are made out of.  I do appreciate the design that goes into the Gisi's pens, but that's a different story as those two gentlemen are extremely talented artists.  

Most any of the pens I saw at Joon.com could be made by the average member of this group if they really wanted to do it.  But I'm grateful that most members of this forum show such little interest in becoming what it takes to sell those pens at the "high end" price tags or wanting to deal with customers who place such a high value on the shallowness of "Snob Appeal".

Bob A



> _Originally posted by punkinn_
> <br />So I was surfing today and ended up at joon.com perusing the high-end pens for sale there.  I came away with some great new ideas (now to figure out how to implement them!) and wondered if anyone else did the same to liven up your offerings?   I also need to figure out where the people are who are buying these $2,000 to $6,000 pens - I wanna talk to them!  []
> 
> Nancy


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## Kaspar (Aug 23, 2006)

I am very much a high culture, classical education kind of guy, but with live-and-let-live, populist undertones.  I have little patience with snobs, or dilettantes, or people who think that because they have a temprament for high art, they are in some moral sense superior.  

Art is not for dabblers.  It requires passion and sacrifice.  Admire it if you can, but don't think yourself especially precious for it.  The man in the arena is worth a hundred of you.  

The Beautiful and the Good are NOT the same thing (though it's nice when they overlap).  I can, if necessary get along with snobs long to enough to prove yet again that their money is as green as anyones.  But that's the extent of it.  

Take music for example.  Someone who truly 'gets it' doesn't give a tinker's damn if you don't like Mozart, or if classical music concerts are not well attended, because I do, and furthermore I know (being a semi-professional musician) that Mozart is probably the best of the best EVER with Bach a close second, and Beethoven hanging close, and no one can convince me that all music is equal.  On the other hand, while Opera is unquestionably a great art, I don't care for it in the least, unless I'm playing for one, or somebody I know is in one (though there are a couple of specific operas I truly like.)  It is just as much nonsense to try and force someone to like something he is not, by temperament or cultural factors, suited to like as it is to say all things are equal.  San Francisco is a city dedicated to the idea that the Beautiful is the Good, and the lover of _ah_rt is morally superior to the hick.  Which is crap.  

There are some forms of music that, though very earthy, are just as untinged by the 'commercial' and just require as much virtuosity as the Great Music - certain kinds of bluegrass and jazz come to mind here.  Being a lover of great beauty, I would love to master all the arts it takes to make one of these ...






... (including metallurgy, ornamental turning, guilloche engraving, machine shop technique, etc...)  But, as Charlie Chaplain said, we are all amateurs.  We don't live long enough to become anything else.  I have done excellent work in this pen turning medium, and I have seen others doing excellent work too.  This is very gratifying, since I believe that music and other arts were made for man, not man for them, and they are best when done by many, even if they don't always come up to the highest standards that the best can do.  Great artists are usually personable and encoruaging of all efforts, because, for one thing, it's only by having enough people around trying to do great work, that that you can have a lot people who will understand and appreciate great work (for what that's worth) when it shows up.  I am a very good hornist.  That is why I can tell you why, exactly, the great hornists are better than me.  

I would love to be able to make that Pheonix pen or that Victoria beauty, but one cannot do everything.  Though I hope to live long enough to try.


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## baldysm (Aug 23, 2006)

Errm, not. Those pens by Tighe are not ornamentally turned, engraved or anything as fancy as that. CNC all the way.


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## ncseeker (Aug 23, 2006)

Looking at the pens at Joon, I noticed several things, but the main thing that jumped out at me was that most of the pens were displayed with the cap posted.  This is a big gripe of mine in that most of the high end pens we make, don't post !!  IMHO the nicest pen we have that posts (sort of) is the Churchill.  I had high hopes for the new pen styles that just came out,(Lotus, Imperial, Jr. Emperor), but none of them post.  
I was in a high end jewelry store the other day, spending WAY too much money on my wife, and showed an Emperor I made to the owner.  The FIRST thing she did was take the cap off and try to post it !!!!  I had to give her the marketing BS about how it's made that way so you can show off the cap as you write.  She didn't buy the BS, nor did she place an order for any pens.  That is but one example of what we all go through in selling our pens.  

Why is it that our kit manufacturers cannot make a high end pen that posts !!!??!?!???

Sorry.....rant over []


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## btboone (Aug 23, 2006)

I agree Scott.  It's one hell of a program, but probably run on the same tabletop mill that I have.


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## Rojo22 (Aug 23, 2006)

Someone was reading my mind when they posted on this, because I always wondered if there was someone on here that was capable of creating their own kit.  I am thinking about doing just that.  After visiting Bruce Boone, I can certainly see where there is enough equipment, talent, and skills to do so.

If a kit was created by a member here, do you think there would be support amongst us to buy the kit if it were a quality kit?


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## Kaspar (Aug 23, 2006)

> _Originally posted by baldysm_
> <br />Errm, not. Those pens by Tighe are not ornamentally turned, engraved or anything as fancy as that. CNC all the way.



18K Gold Victorian Royalty LE:



> ... Materials: The barrel and cap are made of 18K Gold available in Yellow, White, Rose and Green alloys. Titanium hand-rubbed Satin trim, with colored accents complete the body. The Titanium clip is guillochÃ© engraved and selectively colored.
> Comments: The Gold is meticulously Ornamental Turned. -This is a centuries-old practice of decorating lathe-turned objects with complex patterns. -It is in some ways a form of carving with a lathe. There are similarities to Rose Engine turning, but OT traditionally uses Wood and Ivory. Over a year of Research and Development has led to applying this technique to precious metal; creating a visual display of life and light manipulation to the surface.
> Additional Information: Ornamental turning was at its peak during the Victorian era and the name John Jacob Holtzapffel was synonymous with ornamental turning. He soon acquired the reputation of a maker of high-class lathes and tools, and his lathes enjoyed a great prominence amongst the wealthy scientific amateurs and royalty of both England and the continent. Some of these included Wilhelm III King of the Netherlands, Prince Augustus Saxe Coberg, a cousin of Queen Victoria, Archduke Otto Von Habsburg of Austria, and Queen Victoria herself.
> -This pen was designed not to be posted while writing.




I carry no water for Tighe.  But he's guilty of false advertising if they're not ornamentally turned, etc ....


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## vick (Aug 23, 2006)

I have to agree that those are probably CNC done.  I think you could make a case that the term ornamental could be used for this since the term has more to do with the outcome than the process or machine you use.  In other words he may consider it ornametal turning even thought he is using a CNC.  I could be wrong these are definately similiar patterns that I have seen done with ornamental lathes.


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## punkinn (Aug 23, 2006)

To me, that Tighe pen doesn't look hand turned; it gives me the impression of having been machined, but that is just my impression. One would normally think of handwork as being somewhat less precise and variable where this looks almost too perfect...  again just IMHO. 

Enjoying this thread very much. 
Nancy


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## baldysm (Aug 23, 2006)

I do some engraving (poorly, but I'm practicing, see below for my latest practice piece, about 1" across). The clip could be engraved, can't get close enough to really tell. It may be CNC as well. 

As far as the body of the pen, again, can't get a detail view to really examine it closely. I don't see anything that couldnt be done with a 4 axis CNC machine and ball end mill. Is it a program or design that you would knock out in a hour or 2? Nope. I can see it taking considerable time to design, code, test and debug. 

If you look at Tighe's other Victorian LEs, pen made from wood/ivory rather than precious metal, the cost is about 1/10th. Looks to be the same design, with the exception of the clip. I don't know alot about ornamental turning, but I sure would be looking to CNC first to make a part like that. I did some Googling of ornamental turning, and his piece looks extemely complex compared to anything else I saw. I still think it was CNC. 

I'm willing to bet, either Bruce B or myself could make that same piece. I would need about $4000 in software/equipment to do it (and yes I'm saving my pennies to get it) mainly in a CAM program capable of 4 axis programming.

Take this with a grain of salt, I have very little respect for Tighe as a person (24/25 years old, huge ego, and doesnt do alot of the work himself), but he does make pretty nice pens.


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## punkinn (Aug 23, 2006)

Scott - nice start on your engraving!  

I looked thru all of Tighe's pens, and frankly, I found a large majority of them bordering on tacky, not to mention overdone.  But that's me.  Some may read this impression and call it jealousy (giggles) but I'm not slow to drool over anyone's accomplishments nor to give accolades when due at all.  This is the first time I've ever even heard of this guy.  I'm sure the pieces he turns out (figuratively speaking) are time consuming and of high quality component-wise, and a few of them are even attractive (again, IMHO).   I'm sticking with "tacky and overdone" though.   

In contrast, many of the pens I saw on joon.com were ornamental but tasteful and many of them elegant and very well done.  The chasm between some of them and Tighe's could very well be due to his age and creative inexperience, too.  

Does this make sense to anybody but me?  (if not, just ignore me. [])  

Gotta throw that 2Â¢ around, don't I?  [:I]
Nancy


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## btboone (Aug 23, 2006)

Scott, if you notice, it's 2 axis programming.  You simply draw your shapes in CAD and the software writes the g-code from a dxf file. The X dimension is based on 3.60" and does rotary instead. If and when I ever get some spare time, I'd like to make a similar one.  It's actually somewhat straightforward.  Half the battle is coming up with designs that look fancy like those and having the patience to dial in all the code that invariably won't work properly the first time out.

I'll give him credit for knowing how to leverage his designs.  He has nice pictures and marketing lingo and gets press.  He never seems to have less than 3 pages devoted to his stuff in Pen World in any given issue.  As you observed, he has other heavy hitters do the high end sculpted work, and the pen bodies and endcaps are relatively plain, albiet very clean.  The clips were mass produced by someone probably by stamping, and are tastefully anodized in themes matching a particular pen style.  The same pens do show up with wood, ivory, gold, and everything else that can be considered high end.  He probably spent a lot of time dialing in the code, so wants to leverage it for all it's worth.  I would say that I could pretty easily do it, but then again, it's always a lot easier to copy a given design than come up with it all yourself and sweat all the tough details.  I say Good Job to Grayson for making a name for yourself.


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## Daniel (Aug 23, 2006)

Tighe is also the maker of the "Black Panthers Dream" That I like so much. just some background that I have heard (for what that is worth) He started out making kit pens quite younge. having access to basically a machine shop he quickly expanded on the kit designs until he makes what you see above and more. He does not do all the artistic work himself. From what I understand he creats the design (read, paperwork as in drawings etc.) but seeks out "Master" craftsmen for the ingraving, casting, jeweling of whatever else is needed.
basically the picture that forms for me is that penturning and penmaking are two very different animals. you are also in an entirely different class price wise here two. He has a five piece collection that sells for $250,000. so I am told. 
way to much has been said here today for me to reply to it all. But I did want to respond to Nancy's comment about snooty experiences.
I introduced a fellow worker to penturning. about a year ago we where working at Tahoe when we went into Ceasars (The Casino) so one of our co-workers could buy tickets to a show. we found a small shop selling pens and stopped to look at them. we where all grungy from working and the salesperson basically wrinkled his nose at us. until we started looking at the pens and making comments like we actually new something. once we told him that we both made pens he started trying to earn back points. we also visited the local number one office supply store together. This store is locally owned and although it is very much higher end, carries the very same selection of pens that Ceasars has plus many many more. we where immediately treated with friendlyness and respect. so it has a lot to do with who is behind the counter as well.
Anyway this has truned itno a great conversation. if anything I am seriously reconsidering my prices. a lot of the pens on Joon look very much like what we make. and by the way if you search hard enough you will find at least one made from african blackwood. but you would have to go search through all of them like I did. there are a mountain from acrylics which is a common material for us. and one that I am tending to drift toward more and more with having bad uncontrolable outcomes with wood anyway. I'm pretty close to eleminating horn from my material list as well. I've had it do some pretty strange stuff long after a pen has been turned. not just cracking but outright warping.


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## Daniel (Aug 23, 2006)

One example of wood pens on Joon is the Krone "Moby Dick"
and to save you the search the blackwood pen is made by Lamy.
the second pen on there page.


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## baldysm (Aug 23, 2006)

I disagree. I hear what your saying though, that 1 of the axes is a rotary table rather than a linear axis. I think you are thinking that he made a pass along the the length of the pen, and then rotated the pen a degree, and made another pass.

If you look at the arcs, they are all smooth. I doubt very much that they are polished to remove the scallops that would be formed by that process. I think that all 4 axes are in simultaneous motion to avoid the scallops and cut a smooth arc. Get what I mean?

You would still design in 2d, but would roll up the design into a cylinder. Rhino3D does that I think. I'll try to play with it in the next couple days and see how it works. I saw it in the manual, but never dug into it.

Tighe gets alot of press because he spends tons on advertising. I would love to know what he actually does himself. I know he "assembles" the pens himself, and has a hand in the design. How much more, I don't know.


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## btboone (Aug 23, 2006)

That's exactly what I'm saying.  It's only 2 axis simultaneous motion.  X and rotary. (Actually Y and rotary on my machine, but I have my axes wired reversed so that my artwork for rings or pens looks correct on a CAD screen without having to rotate it 90 degrees.)  He uses no Z other than to plunge onto and off of the surface.  No need for Rhino, the software that comes with my machine feeds the rotary axis but thinks of it as a linear axis.  The only thing is you need to rescale the rotary stuff to be 3.6" wide, so if you have circles, they need to be broken into a lot of small lines, or more technically polylines with lots of segments.  They will be scaled out to look as though they were ellipses (depending on the cutting diameter.)  The rotary scale factor is simply 3.6" divided by the pen circumference.  The longitudinal axis scale is left alone and not scaled. I do this by creating a block within AutoCad and inserting it with different X and Y axis scaling.  The drawing is saved as a dxf and imported to the machine software, which translates it to G code.  It automatically does the Z ups and downs to a set depth.  The machine follows the rotary code and ends up cutting a perfect circle just like the original artwork before it was scaled. There is no back and forth raster motion like you were describing, only toolpath along the designed lines. I just did this today for carving some dog paws in a ring.


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## PenWorks (Aug 23, 2006)

> _Originally posted by btboone_
> The rotary scale factor is simply 3.6" divided by the pen circumference.  The longitudinal axis scale is left alone and not scaled. I do this by creating a block within AutoCad and inserting it with different X and Y axis scaling.



I love it when you talk dirty like this []


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## btboone (Aug 23, 2006)

Pen circumference is pen diameter x 3.14159265358979323...

Clear as mud?  The point I was trying to make (but probably not very well) is that a design like that is actually very easy to program and run. (Once you get used to it.)  It's not as tough as Scott is thinking it is.  Just ask the dog paws ring person. []


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## RussFairfield (Aug 24, 2006)

Circumference is Diameter X 3 for me. May not be close enough for making a custom pen.


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## ctEaglesc (Aug 24, 2006)

This started out to be an interesting thread.
I understand tables saws, bandsaws, dremel tools and lathes.
I want to learn about what I can do with MY HANDS.
Maybe Jeff could start a CNC,laser engraving forum.
Pens made with these tools is like comparing bicycles to motor cycles.They are similar but different.
I viewed the Gisi work and held it and saw the prices they went for.
The componets they used "came out of a bag from Taiwan"


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