# Laser Inlay Pen Kits



## sseamen

Over the past year or so I have bought several Laser Inlay pen kits, some of them online and some from Woodcraft (where I can actualy see the pieces before I begin). Some of them have been a bit tough, because of the tiny pieces and my big fumbly fingers, but with a sore tongue from biting and a sore back from bending over to find the *%&^#$ little pieces that just took wings, I made it thru. I've done an eagle, a space shuttle, and some simpler pieces. 

Last weekend I tackled some more kits I've had for a while. I did another space shuttle, a musical notes (first time) and some pink cancer ribbon kits, all from Woodcraft and, man! if this had happened the first time I'd never have made anymore laser inlay kits.

In the past, the pieces have been a tight fit. I've had to break them (as shown in the instructions) and I've had to roll the blank on the table to get the pieces to crunch down into the cutout, but it has always worked. 

This time it's not been fun. 

The space shuttle pieces did NOT fit. I ended up having to use an Exacto knife on the cut outs to get the first pieces (fuel tanks and shuttle body) to fit 'up' towards the top of the blank to fit into the cutout for their tips so they leave room for the later pieces (flame and tail fin). Some of the smaller pieces (black outline around the body, orange smoke or flames) just crumbled and had to be glued into place in small bits.

When I did the musical notes kit, several of the smaller pieces crumbled, and when I tried to 'roll' the blank to get the G clef into the cutout, the body itself crumbled where the stave lines had been cut to represent the staff. I think there is almost more CA holding tiny pieces of that blank together than there is on it for a finish.

Even the cancer ribbons seemed too big for the cutouts. I was able to roll them into the cutouts but every single one popped out when I tried to turn them on the lathe. Looking at the blanks after the popout, I was able to see that the glue on the tube had never touched the inner surface of the ribbons. Apparently they were not 'down' enough. I was able to CA them back in, I was eventually able to turn everything and it all looks good, but *&#%$@, what a pain.

I'm wondering what caused the problems. As I say, I've had good inlay kits from Woodcraft before. I guess Woodcraft might have changed their source of supply for laser inlay kits and not gotten the same quality, I hope not though.

I've had the kits in my workshop for several weeks, some even longer. Alabama has been suffering from high humidity for a while now. My workshop is in the house central air and I also have a dehum, set for 50%, (that runs almost constantly lately) in the workshop. Still, I wonder if the kit pieces could have absorbed humidity and swollen enough to cause the problems?

Do I need to stay away from Woodcraft kits, put any laser inlay kits in the dehydrator for a couple of days before I start them, or just stay away from laser inlay kits?


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## edstreet

It's the kit. Get better quality ones.


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## ed4copies

Ken Nelson at Kallenshaan Woods makes excellent kits.  He was the "founder" of this industry and continues to make kits as his exclusive means of support--his son also works with him--I believe laser kits are HIS sole means of support also.

If you have a problem with one of his kits, he is quick to assist and send parts, if needed.  So, don't give up on lasers, just take a few minutes to peruse his site or ours to see which ones Ken made!!

FWIW,
Ed


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## carlmorrell

I had mixed results myself.  The first one I did was the Stars & Stripes. I had so much fun with it, I decided to try a few others.  Some were very frustrating, I decided I had my fill. I also had color consistency issues with the flag kits. 

So who makes/sell good kits?


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## fitzman163

Ken is the man no question about it!


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## sailing_away

I got stuff from Ken Nelson at Kallenshaan Woods and never had any problems.  Great products and very nice to deal with.


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## Marc

I have done both Kallenshaan kits and Woodcraft Kits.  

Not only are the Kallenshaan kits superior, Ken's service is outstanding. As an example, I have put together several of his puzzle kits.  That kit has to be one of the most challenging out there, in my opinion.   If you break off a puzzle "ear" just notify Ken and he has replaced it.  If you have a rush order on laser engraving, he has always come through.  Great place to give your patronage.

Marc


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## RichB

I have put 12 of these together.  In one instruction it said use soapy water on the parts.  I let them soak a little and they went in a lot easier.  I now use it on all my parts.  It seemed to let them slide in easier other wise they were sticky.  I only saw this on one kit and I can't remember where they came from.  I buy from all vendors.


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## beck3906

edstreet said:


> It's the kit. Get better quality ones.


 

And where might that be?


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## 76winger

Besides Ken's excellent laser kits, I've also made a lot of Constant's kits (Lazerlinez.com) and have had great results with them as well. After a failed stars & stories attempt a couple years ago I learned to dip all of the parts in warm water during assembly. They go together MUCH easier when softened by the water on the surface.

Sent from my iPad using Forum Runner


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## Constant Laubscher

To refer back to the first post.

I am the supplier of the kits that are being sold in the Woodcraft stores. I would love to help you with the problems you might have with the kits. I am standing behind my products and always have and have never had a problem replacing a kit even if it the customers fault.

Sseaman I have sent you a PM regarding your problem with the kits.

Ed I shall not comment on your post regarding the kits because it will just get deleted but I will say nice advertising there.


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## edstreet

Constant Laubscher said:


> To refer back to the first post.
> 
> I am the supplier of the kits that are being sold in the Woodcraft stores. I would love to help you with the problems you might have with the kits. I am standing behind my products and always have and have never had a problem replacing a kit even if it the customers fault.
> 
> Sseaman I have sent you a PM regarding your problem with the kits.
> 
> Ed I shall not comment on your post regarding the kits because it will just get deleted but I will say nice advertising there.



I would like to ask a few questions here on this subject that the OP brought up.



> I've had to break them (as shown in the instructions)
> 
> I ended up having to use an Exacto knife on the cut outs



Is this 'quality'?

Why are we using state of the art equipment to get precision only to have the end user */'break/'* parts to get them in place?  

How can this be the status quo when there are far superior ways to approach the problem that would yield superior results.

On that note I do understand and can relate first hand how end users (read ME) can really fubar a laser inlay part on assembly. I have broken my fair share of parts over the year.  Taking that aspect into consideration I would like to ask sseamen, the OP, what equipment he is using to assemble these lazer kits.  I.e. lighted magnifying glass, 20x loupe, dental picks, a clean well lighted flat work surface with materials that are easy to spot inlay parts that are dropped etc.  (Note these all are practically mandatory for lazer kits)

Oh and one last thing...



Constant Laubscher said:


> Ed I shall not comment on your post regarding the kits because it will just get deleted but I will say nice advertising there.



Could you please refrain from the passive aggressive attacks and lets keep this topic sensible, friendly and non-hostile?  I am sure there are loads of information being shared in this very thread that is of historical value to craftspeople for years to come.


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## Dan Hintz

edstreet said:


> How can this be the status quo when there are far superior ways to approach the problem that would yield superior results.


Okay, I'll bite... what's your superior way?

Before you answer that one, though, I'd like to know... have you ever used a laser to cut precision items out of wood?


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## edstreet

Dan Hintz said:


> edstreet said:
> 
> 
> 
> How can this be the status quo when there are far superior ways to approach the problem that would yield superior results.
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, I'll bite... what's your superior way?
> 
> Before you answer that one, though, I'd like to know... have you ever used a laser to cut precision items out of wood?
Click to expand...


Having never seen the pen kit in question I do not have any suggestions to make but I am questioning why are we using precision cutting equipment only to have the end user break a part which yields serious non-precision into the mix.  I am not claiming to know all of the answers but to have the end user break parts to get them in place defies industry standards and intelligent logic.


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## Dan Hintz

edstreet said:


> Having never seen the pen kit in question I do not have any suggestions to make but I am questioning why are we using precision cutting equipment only to have the end user break a part which yields serious non-precision into the mix.  *I am not claiming to know all of the answers but to have the end user break parts to get them in place defies industry standards and intelligent logic.*


This statement directly conflicts with your prior one.


edstreet said:


> How can this be the status quo when there are  far superior ways to approach the problem that would yield superior  results.



You made a very bold claim in the beginning... "It's the kit. Get better quality ones."  You threw Constant under the bus.  One the one hand you say the current method of design is far inferior to what could be done, yet you don't even understand the process currently being used.

A laser is used because it's capable of fine detail not possible with other tools (like CNC) or hand-cut (while still remaining practical for mass manufacturing).  To say there are superior methods shows not only a lack of understanding, but a cavalier attitude towards that understanding.

There are a multitude of things to contend with when it comes to laser cutting, such as kerf (which affects gap around the pieces when freshly cut), wood density changes (which affect how the laser cuts through the piece), wood swelling/shrinking (which affects gap around the pieces when humidity changes), among others.



EDIT: Of course, I find all of this highly ironic considering the stars and stripes pen displayed in your avatar would not be possible without the inferior laser method.


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## edstreet

Dan Hintz said:


> edstreet said:
> 
> 
> 
> Having never seen the pen kit in question I do not have any suggestions to make but I am questioning why are we using precision cutting equipment only to have the end user break a part which yields serious non-precision into the mix.  *I am not claiming to know all of the answers but to have the end user break parts to get them in place defies industry standards and intelligent logic.*
> 
> 
> 
> This statement directly conflicts with your prior one.
> 
> 
> edstreet said:
> 
> 
> 
> How can this be the status quo when there are  far superior ways to approach the problem that would yield superior  results.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You made a very bold claim in the beginning... "It's the kit. Get better quality ones."  You threw Constant under the bus.  One the one hand you say the current method of design is far inferior to what could be done, yet you don't even understand the process currently being used.
> 
> A laser is used because it's capable of fine detail not possible with other tools (like CNC) or hand-cut (while still remaining practical for mass manufacturing).  To say there are superior methods shows not only a lack of understanding, but a cavalier attitude towards that understanding.
> 
> There are a multitude of things to contend with when it comes to laser cutting, such as kerf (which affects gap around the pieces when freshly cut), wood density changes (which affect how the laser cuts through the piece), wood swelling/shrinking (which affects gap around the pieces when humidity changes), among others.
Click to expand...


Practically any method is far superior to having to 'break' the part.  Which I might add induces many extra problems into the mix, such as extra overhead for the production company in replacement materials and dealing with people who had things go wrong.  Hence forth the 'intelligent logic'

You also assume and are jumping to insane conclusions here.  Wood swelling/shrinking for one.  I have yet to see any mention of type of wood, processing done to said wood or anything else of that nature

'cavalier attitude ' ? seriously?  You so missed the boat and totally took what I said way out of context and apparently have not the first clue as to to intent or nature of my post.  There was no intention of 'attitude', my whole point was quality.  I should be grossly offended but I am not but I will say don't add words to what I say and don't jump to conclusions.

So, since you have a god complex (as it shows in your tag line) why don't you educate us common folks as to why 'breaking' a precision cut part is the best thing since sliced bread.  I would be greatly interested in hearing that answer.

Before that why don't we hear answers about my first question?  Truth in my view is no it is not quality at all, it shows a serious lack of quality and lack of attention to details.  It is also a very dirty hack workaround to a problem.

Seriously tho, enough of the drama and bashing here when the focus should be on quality.  I am quite positive that there could be many methods to do the same thing without having to break parts.


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## Dan Hintz

edstreet said:


> Practically any method is far superior to having to 'break' the part.  Which I might add induces many extra problems into the mix, such as extra overhead for the production company in replacement materials and dealing with people who had things go wrong.  Hence forth the 'intelligent logic'


Again, you make a bold statement... there must be a better way.  But you continue to fail at providing one.  It must be a great view from your ivory tower.  You say I'm the one with a god complex?  You continue to say how inferior current methods are, yet when challenged to come up with a superior method, all you can do is whine about how we misunderstood you.  This is a running theme in a number of your posts... if someone doesn't agree with you, you ramrod them with fairy tales of your supposed ability to do better (with no proof, mind you).  And when the facts start leaning away from your staunch viewpoint, suddenly everyone "misunderstood" what you were trying to say.  Pshhh.  We don't have the memories of a goldfish.


edstreet said:


> You also assume and are jumping to insane conclusions here.  Wood swelling/shrinking for one.  I have yet to see any mention of type of wood, processing done to said wood or anything else of that nature


Here we are again... you failing to read yourself (something you LOVE to accuse everyone else of).  I provided a short (but certainly not all-inclusive) list of just some of the problems that can arise while dealing with a variable substrate like wood in a laser.  There was no "insane conclusion" other than your incorrect assumption of what I posted.  I said exactly what I meant, and if you chose to read between some odd lines, that's on you.  In case you failed to realize it, however, these kits are made of <gasp> wood!  Most of the parts are from dyed sticks, rounded, put on a pen mandrel (of sorts) on the rotary in a laser, and cut (though if things have changed since I first saw the process posted by Kallenshaan Woods years back, I'm listening).  But of course the actual process of how these things are made don't concern you... like most facts.  Because reality tends to muddy up your clear-cut arguments.


edstreet said:


> 'cavalier attitude ' ? seriously?  You so missed the boat and totally took what I said way out of context and apparently have not the first clue as to to intent or nature of my post.  There was no intention of 'attitude', my whole point was quality.  I should be grossly offended but I am not but I will say don't add words to what I say and don't jump to conclusions.


Yes, you have a cavalier attitude towards learning... you don't care what the facts of the matter are, no matter how many people tell you.  You simply run rough shod over the details, particularly the ones that don't support your narrow view.  It's selective reasoning.  You didn't wait to see why the OP might be having a problem, you didn't ask what he was doing that might be causing the issue, you simply threw Constant under the bus, claiming his workmanship was crap.  Constant stands behind his work, and mistakes DO happen, but your first solution wasn't to help the OP with his problem, it was to tell him his kits were crap.  You claim to know exactly how the Chinese kits are made, so you must know how Constant's kits are made (which we now know is false... but I'm sure you'll ignore that fact in your next post) since you seem to be an authority on their quality.


edstreet said:


> So, since you have a god complex (as it shows in your tag line) why don't you educate us common folks as to why 'breaking' a precision cut part is the best thing since sliced bread.  I would be greatly interested in hearing that answer.


Since you obviously can't comprehend someone being facetious in their signature, I won't waste my time arguing that point.

No where did I suggest breaking parts is either the best thing nor the proper thing to do here.  Your attempt to sidetrack the argument by putting such words in my mouth is pathetic.  I won't waste time arguing points I never made, either.


edstreet said:


> Before that why don't we hear answers about my first question?  Truth in my view is no it is not quality at all, it shows a serious lack of quality and lack of attention to details.  It is also a very dirty hack workaround to a problem.
> 
> Seriously tho, enough of the drama and bashing here when the focus should be on quality.  I am quite positive that there could be many methods to do the same thing without having to break parts.


No, the *focus* here is the OP's question, not yours (though you do love to make these threads about how "top of the food chain" you are).

The OP wants to know what, if anything, he is doing wrong, and what he can possibly do to fix it.  Your "solution" of using a better quality kit was a poor one for the reason I mentioned earlier (you can't fix a problem you don't understand).


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## sseamen

I have also gotten kits from Constant (laserlinz.com) in the past and had no problems. I seriously think the problem was with the storage rather than the kits but wanted to get some other opinions. The 'soapy water' trick sounds good, but that makes me wonder about my 'humidity swelling' theory..... Mayhap I'll have to cogitate on this some more.

I use a lighted magnifying glass and follow the rest of the 'practically mandatory for lazer kits' rules.  I blush to admit that the joints in my magnifying glass lamp  do not bend properly in the space I have available so I'm either working too high off the workbench or working too near the edge.  That's why the *^&^%$ little pieces 'take wings'.

I can also answer the question about breaking the parts.  These things are tube shaped (no I'm not trying to state the obvious) and some of the inlay pieces have too great a circumference (IE, if looked at from the end of the tube, go too far 'round the circle) to fit into the cutout from only one direction.  If the laser operator cuts the part into smaller pieces, the line (kerf) remains visible after assembly.  If the operator carefully breaks the part as per the instructions, there is no material removed and carefully assemble allows the part to fit in from multiple sides and the joint is (practically) invisible.  IMHO, designing the piece to work within these requirements is where the technical leaves off and the art begins.

Also, IMHO, these problems were not quality issues.  I have made the same kits before, from the same manufacturer, without the problems.  Needing an exacto knife to trim a piece to fit in the cutout sounds like a quality issue, but I can't picture Constant capriciously changing his settings on the laser to vary the size of the pieces or the cutouts.  This leads me to believe there is another reason for the variation.  One that I don't understand.  

I know of no better place to get explanations for this sort of problem than the IAP.


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## bjbear76

The soapy water suggestion is interesting.  I have a couple questions though.  1-doesn't it also make it difficult to handle the small pieces?  I lose enough of the little devils without any additional challenges.  2-what does that do when you apply the glue?  Depending on the kit, I might add a drop or 2 of thin CA on some of the pieces to hold them in while assembling the rest of the blank.  I use rubber bands when I can, but sometimes CA is better.  
My $.02 on this discussion?  We all have our preferences of suppliers, whether it's kits, blanks, glues, etc.  One supplier may have a better quality, the other may have a better variety, another may save us a few cents.  Regardless of which supplier we choose, the common goal is to find a better way to produce the finished product and enjoy the process.  Whether I buy the inlay kits from supplier A, B, or C, I can learn something from someone else's experiences.


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## edstreet

Interesting to note here the logical simple solution would be to make another cut rather than have the user break it.  That should have been the reply I got and not the QQ and intense emo. 

As for throwing people under a bus I had ask him directly on a public forum but I see now that was in grave error. By me not asking in private it allowed all of the vile roaches to come crawling out of the woodwork. For that I am truly sorry. 

Now back to the OP question on how to fix it. That would be buy quality kits that does not use hacked hałf baked plans that include breaking parts.


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## Tim'sTurnings

Come on guys, give it a rest please? I for one don't want to read your bickering. Thanks.
Tim.


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## ed4copies

BTW, if I may make a suggestion???

No matter WHO makes the kit--open it in a plastic "shoe box" and work on it in that same box.  You MAY want to cut down one side so you can work with your arms straight.

The whole point I am making---the parts are, in some cases, unbelievably TINY!!!
Keep them together and don't set your hand down on them, the parts will adhere to a damp hand (slightly sweaty) just long enough to ride over the sawdust on the floor, THEN disembark to become LOST forever!!

My comments related to Ken were related to Ken because I have made dozens of his kits---my transactions with him have always been positive.  I have as much right as the next guy to state my experiences---even THOUGH I am now selling Ken's kits.


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## sseamen

edstreet said:


> Interesting to note here the logical simple solution would be to make another cut rather than have the user break it. That should have been the reply I got and not the QQ and intense emo.
> 
> Now back to the OP question on how to fix it. That would be buy quality kits that does not use hacked hałf baked plans that include breaking parts.


 
You certainly have a right to your (fixed) opinion on breaking the parts.  Personally, I prefer the almost indetectable break to the very visible kerf, but that's just me.:laugh:


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## Dan Hintz

sseamen said:


> I prefer the almost indetectable break to the very visible kerf, but that's just me.:laugh:


Off the wall idea, but what if you placed the small pieces (but not the main body) in the oven at lowest temp for about 10 minutes?  If there is any residual moisture making the pieces swell, this would bake it out of them and shrink them, even if only for half an hour (long enough to get them all inserted).

It would certainly rule out swelling of the wood causing the issue...


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## wouldentu2?

How many different manufactures are their?


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## jsolie

I've only built one laser kit for pens--so maybe I'm off base a bit here--but it was no where nearly as challenging as assembling a laser kit for N-scale model railroading (talk about going cross-eyed...)

My first thought for the OP was humidity.  With the tight tolerances for laser cut kits (I'm drawing on my experience with N-scale kits here, not pen kits), humidity can cause some issues with making things not fit correctly.


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## Constant Laubscher

Reason for breaking a part at a certain point/spot is that the laser kerf will be visible and not always wanted on certain colors. Also if the laser cut is against the grain of the wood it will also look bad. 
I use tight tolerances on most of my kits and therefor you do not get black lines around the inlays or it is minimal. The down side is that the kits are more difficult to put together but the result is greatly superior to a inlay with lots of gaps around it.

I manufacture many different parts every day and have to hold tolerances of .ooo2"
all day long so I know what quality is but when I design a product and come up with a method on how to put it together it is just how I do it with the equipment that I have in my shop. The methods are not set in stone and every person has a different skill set that he or she has to apply to get the job done and for some it will be very frustrating and other would find it easy.

If a customer have a problem and do not contact us, we have no way of knowing that he or she has a problem. When people contact us with a problem we always want to know everything about the problem so we can fix it or give advice and then still replace a kit if there is a need for it. 

Ed -  if your first post was like the last one I would not have a problem.  I do not think Vendors should have one sided opinions when commenting on a post where another vendor is mentioned and especially if you are selling the products of the vendor that you recommend or referring to your website ( advertising) for a possible sale or to benefit from post.


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## ed4copies

Constant,
You have a right to think and say anything you want to, as long as it is within the rules of the IAP.

I have that same right, so if you don't like what I say and it is within the rules, don't read it.  I have carefully refrained from saying anything about you or your products.


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## Constant Laubscher

ed4copies said:


> I have carefully refrained from saying anything about you or your products.


 

That was very kind of you, thank you.


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## edstreet

Constant Laubscher said:


> Reason for breaking a part at a certain point/spot is that the laser kerf will be visible and not always wanted on certain colors. Also if the laser cut is against the grain of the wood it will also look bad.
> I use tight tolerances on most of my kits and therefor you do not get black lines around the inlays or it is minimal. The down side is that the kits are more difficult to put together but the result is greatly superior to a inlay with lots of gaps around it.
> 
> I manufacture many different parts every day and have to hold tolerances of .ooo2"
> all day long so I know what quality is but when I design a product and come up with a method on how to put it together it is just how I do it with the equipment that I have in my shop. The methods are not set in stone and every person has a different skill set that he or she has to apply to get the job done and for some it will be very frustrating and other would find it easy.




Ok I now understand your side of things so thanks for saying that.  You will still see a break regardless of how it is re-attached.  The first thing that comes to mind when a break like that shows up is a serious goof, I would also think there should be better solutions than with a break.  I am not opposed to doing a break mind you but when dealing with areas that I work in that will stick out like a very sore thumb and the product will get viewed in a very negative light.

So 0.0002" tolerance and a part looking bad (against the grain)  I am going out on a limb here and have to ask, cutting against the grain you can not hold to 0.002" spec?



Constant Laubscher said:


> If a customer have a problem and do not contact us, we have no way of knowing that he or she has a problem. When people contact us with a problem we always want to know everything about the problem so we can fix it or give advice and then still replace a kit if there is a need for it.
> 
> Ed - if your first post was like the last one I would not have a problem. I do not think Vendors should have one sided opinions when commenting on a post where another vendor is mentioned and especially if you are selling the products of the vendor that you recommend or referring to your website ( advertising) for a possible sale or to benefit from post.



If you look in the classifieds you will find that the other Ed  frequently posts there.  Also one of the things we commonly see is contacting the vendor about problems like this.


-
Many keep bringing up 'humidity' and I have to ask here, again.  Are we talking raw wood or are we talking professionally stabilized wood here (not the home cast stuff but professionally processed with the high end equipment)?  Also what wood is this.  There is a HUGE difference between the two.


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## Constant Laubscher

The tolerance of .0002 has nothing to do with the laser inlay kits it has to do with the parts that I make on the CNC machines, it was just used to make a point referring to quality.

When a laser inlay parts is broken and then put together you do not see the break line because it fits perfectly together again when glued unless it is a very light wood you might see a line but it is still better than cutting it with a laser and have that line visible.

Humidity:
All the wood I use have been stabilized by Lazerlinez with professional equipment.
When wood is stabilized it will still absorb moisture and can expand and contract but not as much as with natural un stabilized wood. The wood will lose moisture very quickly as well. In GA the moisture in stabilized wood and unstabilized will always be around 11% if left alone.


If you look in the classifieds you will find that the other Ed  frequently posts there. Also one of the things we commonly see is contacting the vendor about problems like this
 
Well this was not said in any post that I have read. 
The customer actually only contact me today  ( I read his pm after 5pm this afternoon)
I can now ask questions and actually figure out what the problem is with the mentioned kit and fix the problem and send a replacement.

So far most of the posts were back and forth opinions and other arguments.

I shall post the results and solution to the clients problem with the kit.

I hope this answer some of the questions.


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## SamThePenMan

I have yet to make any laser cut kits, but I'd imagine the time they've sit between laser cutting and final assembly, they could have absorbed moisture from the air, and with the tight tolerances they have, swelled up just enough to cause problems.



Dan Hintz said:


> sseamen said:
> 
> 
> 
> I prefer the almost indetectable break to the very visible kerf, but that's just me.:laugh:
> 
> 
> 
> Off the wall idea, but what if you placed the small pieces (but not the main body) in the oven at lowest temp for about 10 minutes?  If there is any residual moisture making the pieces swell, this would bake it out of them and shrink them, even if only for half an hour (long enough to get them all inserted).
> 
> It would certainly rule out swelling of the wood causing the issue...
Click to expand...


A variation on this idea would to put the suspect pieces under gooseneck lamp to help liberate some of the trapped moisture if any exists. Also I know with metalworking/fitting bearings one part is put in an oven (to expand it) and the other in a freezer (to shrink it) then quickly put together and as their temps equalize they end up with a tight, press fit. Though I don't think that would work the same wood.


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## sseamen

To add a quick $0.02.  Constant did indeed contact me and offer replacement.  I appreciate the offer.  It shows that Constant does indeed stand behind his product. However, this is not, and never was my aim here.  My goal was to spark some (less inflammatory) discussion and maybe figure out how to avoid the problem in the future.  I think we are actually working towards that.  

I'm still wondering about the soapy water.  It seems like it would cause swelling, but maybe the softening makes up for it?  Is it possible that the humidity causes swelling without softening?  If someone out there has the measuring capability, could they take a semi-small piece of a kit, dry it in an oven for a bit, measure it, and then let it sit in some relatively high humidity for a week or so and see if there is a measurable difference in dimensions?  Or is this going too far?  

Do any of the kit makers care to weigh in on the advisability of soaking their product in soapy water prior to assembly?  Could it change color?  Does it affect the CA?  Is there a better way?

As far as replacement goes, I will work this out with Constant.  Whether he does replacement or not, I can only speak well of his kits and his service.  Either way it comes out, he can post the resolution if he sees fit.  I will publically state, right now, that I think he has proven his standard of service.


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## Jim15

I use soapy water. I don't soak the parts but dip it in then insert it into the cutout. Works well for me.


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## edstreet

Constant Laubscher said:


> The tolerance of .0002 has nothing to do with the laser inlay kits it has to do with the parts that I make on the CNC machines, it was just used to make a point referring to quality.
> 
> When a laser inlay parts is broken and then put together you do not see the break line because it fits perfectly together again when glued unless it is a very light wood you might see a line but it is still better than cutting it with a laser and have that line visible.
> 
> Humidity:
> All the wood I use have been stabilized by Lazerlinez with professional equipment.
> When wood is stabilized it will still absorb moisture and can expand and contract but not as much as with natural un stabilized wood. The wood will lose moisture very quickly as well. In GA the moisture in stabilized wood and unstabilized will always be around 11% if left alone.
> 
> 
> If you look in the classifieds you will find that the other Ed  frequently posts there. Also one of the things we commonly see is contacting the vendor about problems like this
> 
> Well this was not said in any post that I have read.
> The customer actually only contact me today  ( I read his pm after 5pm this afternoon)
> I can now ask questions and actually figure out what the problem is with the mentioned kit and fix the problem and send a replacement.
> 
> So far most of the posts were back and forth opinions and other arguments.
> 
> I shall post the results and solution to the clients problem with the kit.
> 
> I hope this answer some of the questions.



The work range that I deal with a crack, repair, break and the like would stick out like a sore thumb.

I am confused about something.  Why bring up the .0002 tolerance up since they have nothing to do with laser kits? I can see several reasons, ranging from to impress or push some superiority complex to being to busy with that to improve laser quality.  Here I am likely incorrect so clarification would be needed here.

I to am in Georgia, about 2 hours south of you right outside of Columbus.  After reading this I took my moisture meter to every stabilized block that I have and every block that I have had processed at one professional company is less than 6% MC.  Every block that I have that is *NOT* professionally stabilized is 10-14% MC but many of them still smells like wood so go figure.


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## Dan Hintz

edstreet said:


> I am confused about something.  Why bring up the .0002 tolerance up since they have nothing to do with laser kits? I can see several reasons, ranging from to impress or push some superiority complex to being to busy with that to improve laser quality.  Here I am likely incorrect so clarification would be needed here.





Constant Laubscher said:


> I manufacture many different parts  every day and have to hold tolerances of .ooo2" all day long *so I know  what quality is*


You questioned why mention it, so in his next post...


			
				Constant Laubscher said:
			
		

> The tolerance of .0002 has nothing to do with the laser inlay kits it  has to do with the parts that I make on the CNC machines, *it was just  used to make a point referring to quality.*


Yet you still throw it back at him, then accuse him of doing so for self-aggrandizing reasons.  The answer is right there in black and white.  He mentioned it as a reference to his understanding of what high-quality and high-tolerance design is.  Only your myopic viewpoint would see it as an attempt at throwing around a superiority complex (Pot?  Meet kettle.).  Your insistence on attacking Constant, yet again, does not solve the OP's problem (you haven't suggested a single thing to help him), but you love to talk about how you know what's best, how your methods (whatever they are, because you won't tell us) are somehow superior.  And then you slip in passive-aggressive comments.



			
				edstreet said:
			
		

> Interesting to note here the logical simple solution would be to make  another cut rather than have the user break it.  That should have been  the reply I got and not the QQ and intense emo.


Constant told you the reason why this doesn't work... the laser has a finite (and therefore visible) kerf.  Making another cut would make for a visible line, whereas having the user break the part along a grain line allows for a near-invisible fix-up.

The reason for why the kits are designed the way they are has been provided, possible solutions to the OP are on the table, including from the designer of the kit, and yet you are STILL bitching about irrelevant details and attacking the vendor.

WHY?


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## Constant Laubscher

No more back and forth from my side on this issue , the way this is going does not benefit anyone. Like I said before I shall post an update on this kit issue when it is resolved.​ 
Here is a quote I saw that is a perfect fit within a .ooo2 tollerance.

*" Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than speak out and remove all doubt. "*​ 
Abraham Lincoln​


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## edstreet

bjbear76 said:


> The soapy water suggestion is interesting.  I have a couple questions though.  1-doesn't it also make it difficult to handle the small pieces?  I lose enough of the little devils without any additional challenges.  2-what does that do when you apply the glue?  Depending on the kit, I might add a drop or 2 of thin CA on some of the pieces to hold them in while assembling the rest of the blank.  I use rubber bands when I can, but sometimes CA is better.
> My $.02 on this discussion?  We all have our preferences of suppliers, whether it's kits, blanks, glues, etc.  One supplier may have a better quality, the other may have a better variety, another may save us a few cents.  Regardless of which supplier we choose, the common goal is to find a better way to produce the finished product and enjoy the process.  Whether I buy the inlay kits from supplier A, B, or C, I can learn something from someone else's experiences.



If it is truly stabilized wood then the wood will not move when wet, least it SHOULD not move anyways. Same with the 'soften' remarks made.  At most the soap, water, etc. would help lubricate the parts scraping together as they are moved into place.

If you are adding soap then you just introduced contamination/residue that can/will cause problems with whatever finish you use.  The other point to bring up is you are sealing everything on, in and under the material with the finish and I have seen (first hand via my own mistakes btw) materials turn to mush over time because of that.  When we look at the photo archival community, i.e. 'hanging pictures on the wall' we see 'acid free' is heavy used, that is because acid that is trapped/sealed will cause some very nasty damage over time.  The question is how much time will it take.


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## Dan Hintz

edstreet said:


> If it is truly stabilized wood then the wood will not move when wet, least it SHOULD not move anyways. Same with the 'soften' remarks made.  At most the soap, water, etc. would help lubricate the parts scraping together as they are moved into place.


I forgot to correct this one earlier... I think there's some confusion as to use of the term "stabilized" here.  I believe Constant is using it to describe wood that has been kiln dried to a known %MC, but it can change its MC based upon ambient conditions.  When most of us use the word here on IAP, we're thinking of resin-infused wood, which is not affected by moisture.  The laser kits do not (to my knowledge) use resin-infused wood, so we're talking about raw wood.


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## Garrett'sWoodworx

I have to agree with the others: Ken Nelson does a wonderful job manufacturing high quality kits.  He is also quick to answer questions & resolve what few problems might occur. He will also give you an honest appraisal of a specific kit's difficulty if you ask. Personally, I've been very dissatisfied with the Woodcraft kits. Just my opinion, "YMMV".
Garrett


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## edstreet

Dan Hintz said:


> edstreet said:
> 
> 
> 
> If it is truly stabilized wood then the wood will not move when wet, least it SHOULD not move anyways. Same with the 'soften' remarks made.  At most the soap, water, etc. would help lubricate the parts scraping together as they are moved into place.
> 
> 
> 
> I forgot to correct this one earlier... I think there's some confusion as to use of the term "stabilized" here.  I believe Constant is using it to describe wood that has been kiln dried to a known %MC, but it can change its MC based upon ambient conditions.  When most of us use the word here on IAP, we're thinking of resin-infused wood, which is not affected by moisture.  The laser kits do not (to my knowledge) use resin-infused wood, so we're talking about raw wood.
Click to expand...


I see.  My assumption was that stabilized context here is well stabilized wood; not kiln dried lumber.  There is a HUGE difference and yes my meter does indeed read 12% MC on many/most raw woods down here in Georgia/Alabama.

I do know that one of the other vendors does indeed use stabilized wood, i.e. the true stabilized woods as in resin-infused.


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## tjseagrove

Dan Hintz said:


> sseamen said:
> 
> 
> 
> I prefer the almost indetectable break to the very visible kerf, but that's just me.:laugh:
> 
> 
> 
> Off the wall idea, but what if you placed the small pieces (but not the main body) in the oven at lowest temp for about 10 minutes?  If there is any residual moisture making the pieces swell, this would bake it out of them and shrink them, even if only for half an hour (long enough to get them all inserted).
> 
> It would certainly rule out swelling of the wood causing the issue...
Click to expand...


Another option would be to place all the parts in a bag with a desiccant pack for maybe an hour or so...


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## Constant Laubscher

Humidity is most likely not the problem.


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## brownsfn2

I have had kits from both sources and think both are good. 

I think this thread does need something though:

Constant - I have watched that same pen being made on that CNC lathe over a dozen times now.  Can you do another video?  

I love watching that thing work.


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## CabinetMaker

Breaking a piece before installing it actually makes for a better pattern.  If you cut it with a laser there will be a burn line.  On light colored woods this will be particularly noticeable.  On the other hand, if you carefully break it and then press the two pieces in the break line will be invisible in the finished pen.


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## 76winger

Jim15 said:


> I use soapy water. I don't soak the parts but dip it in then insert it into the cutout. Works well for me.



I do the same process only I leave the soap out and still get good results.

Sent from my iPad using Forum Runner


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## Bear-31

I have assembled quite a few laser kits from Kallenshaan Woods and Lazerlinz. The tighter the kit the better the finished product will look and the harder it can be to assemble. They work a fine line keeping the balance. I actually like the kits that require a break because it has more of the "how did they do that" look to it. The kits that I have done that require a break when finished you could not see the break ...even under magnification. It requires patience as well as clean hands to make sure the color of the wood isn't changed while handling.

The 2 vendors I mentioned have their specialties and they are both very good at them. I like some of each of them. I also note that both vendors have superb customer service and have been very helpful to me in the past...both with instructions and replacement parts/kits when things went wrong.

I also use the soap and warm water on the tight parts. On those kits, once assembled without glue, I wrap masking tape (blue painters) around to hold all the pieces in and set asside for a few days to dry before gluing tube in. Before gluing the tube in I roll the tubes gently....but firm between 2 pieces of wood to ensure all pieces are in as far as they will go and haven't shimmied out. Remove tape and coat/saturate entire assembled piece with thin CA to lock everything in place.

While turning I will occasionally dribble more thin CA into any spot that it might not have gotten into on the first saturation.

I know most of this has already been mentioned, but I just wanted to put my experiences with the kits. I hope it helps out a little.


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## Golfbuddy45

76winger said:


> Besides Ken's excellent laser kits, I've also made a lot of Constant's kits (Lazerlinez.com) and have had great results with them as well. After a failed stars & stories attempt a couple years ago I learned to dip all of the parts in warm water during assembly. They go together MUCH easier when softened by the water on the surface.  Sent from my iPad using Forum Runner



I have done lots of laser inlay kits and like them very much for the specialty topics they represent but the GEARS KIT is terribly difficult to get together - I destroyed two complete kits and still did not get one right. 

Could you give a little more details about wetting the parts before assembly? Soaking them or just a little damp?  How long to dry before finishing?  

Thanks,

GB45


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## 76winger

I dip in warm water for about 10 seconds the bring the part over and place in it respective place in the main body. Once all pieces at assembled I pull the brass tube back out and leave setting overnight at least before saturating with thin CA to  bond everything together (no tube at this point). After the assembled an glued assembly dries for a few more hours ill then paint the inside, usually black, to block any possibility of the brass tube showing through a slight gap. Leave that to dry overnight and then your ready to glue the tube in place and saw/sand the ends to match the end of the tube. Don't use a barrel trimmer or you end up with a busted inlay after all this work!


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## GDGeorge

As long as we're resurrecting the thread, I'll plug the Wood-n-Whimsies kits.  They come pre-assembled which is a huge benefit in my world.  The only other ones I've tried are Contant's from Laserlinez.  They are really nice looking but rather complex to assemble in some cases.  (I'm thinking the EGA and the Navy emblem specifically. My patience runs out!)  They are really nice looking though.

Tthe really nice thing about Constant's kits (aside from the looks) is that there is a huge selection.  WoodNWhimsies is slowly increasing theirs but Laserlines has a much larger selection. (Not to mention his periodic sales... Thanks Constant!)  

Not affiliated in any way with either company... Just my $.02.


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## JCochrun

Has anyone done the herringbone inlay kit?  I've got it and the puzzle piece kit to make.  The herringbone looks like it might be quite challenging.

Jim


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