# Freedom????



## Smitty37 (Sep 3, 2013)

We like to think we are a free people --- but there was a time when we were a lot more free.

I was thinking today of some of the things I did that my kids couldn't do and my grandkids have never even given doing them a thought.

At 10 years of age and older, I could dig up a can of worms, take my old bamboo (or go cut a sapling if I didn't have a bamboo) pole, walk two or three miles alone to one of my favorite fishing holes and fish.

Also at 10 years of age I learned to shoot and how to properly care for and treat firearms.

If I wanted to swim there were at least half a dozen places I could go, no fences, no life guards, no need to ask permission we just went.  btw, no one ever drowned.  My kids had a pool but otherwise there was not many places they could have gone.  My grandkids can't even think about swimming anywhere but in a properly supervised pool.

Ice skating in the winter on 6 different lakes, ranging is size from about 20 acres to about 150 acres, no permission needed - we just went.  My kids had some exposure to that on a pond of about 3/4 acres.

If we wanted a ball game we got as many kids together as we could find and chose up sides - the two best players (and everybody knew who they were) did the choosing and the teams which might have from 5 to 8 players on a side would be pretty evenly matched.  No umpires, no parents to make fools of themselves, mended broken wooden bats,  taped up balls, half the kids had gloves and shared with those who didn't.  We kept score but 5 minutes after the game ended no body cared who won, we had fun.  
In the fall it was the same with football, if we were playing where the grass was soft we played tackle at the school the field was rocky with a lot of stones so we played touch there.  No helmets, no padding, no referees, no parents to make fools out of themselves - no kick off tees, no goal posts, no extra points, and again we kept score but nobody really cared who won.  Same method of choosing sides.

Compare that to now and tell me kids are free - they can't make a move without adult supervision right there along with all of the latest and greatest equipment, coaches, umpires and properly laid out and measured fields.

My kids could choose up sides for kickball only because we owned 14 acres of land and could let them mark off a spot to play.  But, there were very few opportunities for pick-up fun games.

We started school when we were 6 years old (or close to it) and most of us went no more than 12 years (when I graduated about 25% went to college - mostly on their own nickel without a lot of financial help from their parents) and learned enough so we could get a job when we finished.  Our parents were happy when we graduated because we'd now be able to help out for a few years until we "got married and settled down".  At 17 I was contributing more to the household than it cost for found and services received.  We were free, if we wanted to (and a few did) we could leave home, get a job and go back only when we felt like it.  Now half the kids start "preschool" at 4 kindergarten at 5 then go to college for 4 or more years after high school and 1/3 are still at least partly dependent on their parents when they're 30.  People dependent on their parents (or the government for that matter are not free).

If I am to be frank, I am so glad I was born 75 years ago rather than 75 days ago.  I shudder to think of what it will be like for the poor kids being born now - I fear they'll never have a childhood.


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## turncrazy43 (Sep 3, 2013)

Leroy, sad but true.
________________________
Everyday I'm vertical is a great day


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## avbill (Sep 3, 2013)

what do you mean 4 years of college  maybe 5;  my son spent 17 years in college.  2 BA 2 MA & 2 PHD's  and yes he has a job to boot!


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## PenMan1 (Sep 3, 2013)

Well, LeRoy! You are spot on!

And for the record, I keep a couple of worm beds, a small thicket of cane growing on the property. I've also got some stones that can fabricate a hatchet big enough to cut a sapling to make a bow and arrow.

Fortunately, I live "at the beginning" of the Trail of Tears, so I can easily pick up enough "antique" arrowheads to put a tip on an arrow.

This ole boy will be the last to give up those freedoms.

Respectfully submitted.


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## Smitty37 (Sep 3, 2013)

avbill said:


> what do you mean 4 years of college maybe 5; my son spent 17 years in college. 2 BA 2 MA & 2 PHD's and yes he has a job to boot!


I have 6 kids and one did not finish college, 1 has only his BS, 4 have MS and 3 are still going for doctorates all are working full time as well so I do understand.  I didn't get my own BS degree until I was 44 years old and it took me 16 years.


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## joefyffe (Sep 3, 2013)

Smitty:  We are off each other about 4 years, and you don't know how often I have those same thoughts.  Was bird and rabbit hunting "alone" at about age 10 or 11.  I guess I have those thoughts most often when I look into the eyes of my great grandkids!  It's sad, very sad!  :frown:





Smitty37 said:


> We like to think we are a free people --- but there was a time when we were a lot more free.
> 
> I was thinking today of some of the things I did that my kids couldn't do and my grandkids have never even given doing them a thought.
> 
> ...


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## ashaw (Sep 3, 2013)

Leroy 
You are spot on.  I remember playing Cowboy and Indians and shooting each other with out fake guns (Tree branches).  Today if a kid points his finger like a gun they are kicked out of school and maybe arrested.  Too much government not enough common sense.  Glad I grew up in the 50's and 60's.  

Alan


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## sbwertz (Sep 3, 2013)

My dad bought me my first rifle for my 8th birthday. I've had guns (and bows) my whole life.  I shot competitively in both archery and rifle competitions through the years. 

 My brother and I and two neighbor kids used to hike in the foothills of the rockies when I was in Jr Hi and the oldest of the group.  We never got lost, hurt, or molested by anyone or anything. (Although we did once bring home an orphaned bobcat kitten.)  

 We rarely locked our doors in house or car.  My brother and I would take off on our horses early on a summer morning, with a picnic lunch, and not come back until dark (horses don't have headlights.)  But you couldn't get lost...a horse can always find his feed box.  The only time our parents worried was when one of the horses came home without us.

Ours was a simpler time in a rural area.  Now I live in a city, and my kids and grandkids can't safely do the wonderfully free things we did as children.  My doors are always locked and alarmed, I carry pepper spray in my purse, and am trained in self defense.  I still have my guns, but seldom shoot anymore because the recoil hurts my arthritis.  Mostly just the 22's now.  No more trap shooting!  No more archery!  It's hell getting old.

Sharon


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## Smitty37 (Sep 4, 2013)

sbwertz said:


> My dad bought me my first rifle for my 8th birthday. I've had guns (and bows) my whole life. I shot competitively in both archery and rifle competitions through the years.
> 
> My brother and I and two neighbor kids used to hike in the foothills of the rockies when I was in Jr Hi and the oldest of the group. We never got lost, hurt, or molested by anyone or anything. (Although we did once bring home an orphaned bobcat kitten.)
> 
> ...


It's also the little things...a kid calls someone a blockhead and gets called on the carpet and maybe suspended for "verbal abuse" --j we said "sticks and stones might break my bones but names will never hurt me".  We played mumble-d-peg with our pocket knives (and every boy above 5th grade had a scout knife) during recess...now they talk about putting them in jail if they find a nail clipper in their back pack....


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## George417 (Sep 4, 2013)

Those were the good old times. I remember riding my bike 5 miles to see my best friend with a BB rifle strapped across the handle bars, I dare you to do that now.


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## Russianwolf (Sep 4, 2013)

it was only 30 years ago that I was riding my bike (without a helmet, I have the scar to prove it) and would be all over town. The mall was 10 miles and that wasn't too far. Our parents never worried about us doing it (at least not enough to say anything if they were).


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## PWL (Sep 4, 2013)

Mom would wrap a couple of sandwiches in waxed paper,put them in a poke and we would be gone all day. If we got thirsty we would stop at any house and ask for water.
We usually got kool aid or lemonade. Complete strangers. Try that now!
Ah,the good old days. A helmet was what the army wore.

Paul


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## OKLAHOMAN (Sep 4, 2013)

Raised in Tampa I played pick up baseball with the likes of Lou Pinella ,& Al Lopez Jr., would leave the house at 7AM go to McFarland Park in West Tampa, play a game or two, then hop on or bikes stop at one of our houses and all eat lunch (someones mother would always make sandwiches) then take off to Lake Mary to swim. Not once did an adult stand on the sidelines or go with us swimming. By the time I was 16 and had my first car, a 1936 Ford 2 door sedan which I paid forty dollars for I would pick up my best friend go to Ybor city be gone all day and the only thing we were told is to be home for dinner. We all said yes Mam and yes Sir.
Todays child has no idea what real freedom is .


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## edicehouse (Sep 4, 2013)




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## Mike Powell (Sep 4, 2013)

I was born in 72.  but the picture above is exactly how we rolled.  I lived in the country and had horses and cows ( a very small ranch) I remember building jumps and putting cinder blocks behind it to mark who jumped the furthest.  Heck was the day someone went before you and made it further.  

I remember riding go carts and dirt bikes on our gravel road (paved in 85) and riding our bikes in the crop fields.  Fishing in the big ditch for cat fish with hot dogs.  Every parent knew every kid, and if you did something wrong you got your butt whipped by what ever parent, and then again when you got home.  

When I turned 16 and got my first truck, I never locked it, and the keys were always in it.  I picked up hay for a quarter a bail, and worked at a parts store too, along with school.  

I remember Dad and I dove hunting on our back porch in our whitie tighties.  

The one thing that gets me now, is if we were mad at someone and had a beef with them, we met after school and fixed it, you may get your butt whooped by him, or him by you, but you were both at school the next day.  We took care of our problems with our fists not guns..


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## Scruffy (Sep 4, 2013)

*Smitty..*

The sad thing is that our schools and government teach the kids...

They can get anything they want free, it is owed to them.

They are not responsible for anything, it is somebody else's fault.

They will protected and given what ever they need for all their lives, but forget about that freedom or individual rights stuff, that went out years ago.


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## TellicoTurning (Sep 4, 2013)

George417 said:


> Those were the good old times. I remember riding my bike 5 miles to see my best friend with a BB rifle strapped across the handle bars, I dare you to do that now.



I lived in Freestone County Texas in my early teens.. I usually had a .22 rifle strapped across the handlebars and rode 7 or 8 miles out to my best friends house (I lived in town and he was out in the country) to shoot, swim or just hang out.  

I left home at 17 (- my parents were separated and I lived with my dad and grandmother) because my dad and grandmother moved 13 miles closer to his job in another town... I didn't want to finish school in that town, so stayed in my hometown with a friend of the family... she had her house split into two apartments and I rented from her and worked at the local movie house to make ends meet... when I moved out, my dad said I was on my own... I've gone home to visit, but have not lived in either parent's house since the age of 17.


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## edicehouse (Sep 4, 2013)

I was born in 76, and the school I went to in Upstate NY was k-12.  The road we lived on split the North from the South hunting season.  South came in a week or two earlier than the North.  That Friday when the South came in our school was off, they used it as a teacher work day because most of the guys always skipped that day to go hunting (or prepare for the weekend hunt).  Our town did not have a convention center of any type so the yearly hunt show was held in the school gym.  The guys that drove to school generally had a rifle in the vehicle, I never knew anyone who was shot up there (except self inflicted) from a fight or accidently hunting.  Go figure.


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## Justturnin (Sep 4, 2013)

I remember a lot of those things when I was a kid even (34 now).  So much has changed at the speed of light.


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## maxwell_smart007 (Sep 4, 2013)

When I was a kid, all the cartoons and tv shows had moral messages built in at the end.  There was no swearing on TV - and violence was simulated and fake - now I have to turn away if it's rated anything over pg14...like 14 year olds should be watching that.  I think the slippery slope of what kids see on TV (and now what they can freely access on the internet without their parents knowing), results in declining moral standards.  Even cell-phones mean that calls no longer have to be vetted through the parents...kids are less accountable about who they're hanging out with as a result.  

SO get rid of your kids cellphones (and yours), play outside, encourage your neighbours to do the same, and stop chasing the buck and the newest techno fad...

Simple life = simple problems! techno-centered life = turmoil.


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## Two Hair (Sep 4, 2013)

There was a lot of good in them old days.  Sand lot games, riding bikes with no helmets, being gone all day.  Just be home in time for dinner.  No locked doors.  Fist fights and very few of those.


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## Smitty37 (Sep 4, 2013)

edicehouse said:


> I was born in 76, and the school I went to in Upstate NY was k-12. The road we lived on split the North from the South hunting season. South came in a week or two earlier than the North. That Friday when the South came in our school was off, they used it as a teacher work day because most of the guys always skipped that day to go hunting (or prepare for the weekend hunt). Our town did not have a convention center of any type so the yearly hunt show was held in the school gym. *The guys that drove to school generally had a rifle in the vehicle,* I never knew anyone who was shot up there (except self inflicted) from a fight or accidently hunting. Go figure.


 I'll bet they don't now.  I lived in the southern zone in upstate NY at that time we could do a lot of things then they can't do now (Our daughter is not the high school principal where our kids went to school)


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## Scruffy (Sep 4, 2013)

*We kind of talked about this before*

I had a 22 rifle before I could drive. Went hunting ground hogs and gophers at the Mississippi Levee.  We used to get 50 cent bounty for their ears.   The gophers and ground hogs would(probably still do) dig holes in levee which could cause the levee to leak and break.

In the six years that I went to the high school and jr High, only one student died. and that was from drowning while swimming in the river.  Last I heard they have 2-3 die a year from drugs alone.


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## Smitty37 (Sep 4, 2013)

Smitty37 said:


> > I'll bet they don't now. I lived in the southern zone in upstate NY at that time we could do a lot of things then they can't do now (Our daughter is *not* the high school principal where our kids went to school)
> 
> 
> Should read "now"


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## edstreet (Sep 5, 2013)

People are only free if they fight for it. If they do not then there is none for them.  Reliance upon others to give them that luxury has been the downfall of human society throughout history.

Respect is earned by deed of action.  What have you done to earn respect and freedom today?


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## Smitty37 (Sep 5, 2013)

*losing freedom*

We give up our freedom an inch at a time.  A little more regulation here, a little more there and in time we become the most highly regulated Western nation in the world.  When we consider local, state and federal regulation there is virtually no aspect of our lives which are not regulated.  We are so regulated that it is impossible for anyone to know how much regulation we have just in our personal lives.

A quick example is our children.  If you have children who have not yet reached adulthood, just think on how much direction (with the force of law) you are getting from government on what you MUST do and what you MAY NOT do regarding the care and upbringing you provide.

Another would be - build a house and check the hoops you have to jump through.  I did it with a small cabin on piers in the late '90s and had to meet "code" on the septic system, the diameter and depth of the piers, the size of the main beams, the size and maximum length of the floor joists, the pitch and strength of the roof, the depth of the insulation, the size of the studs, the number and placement of electrical outlets, and I'm sure I've missed some.  In short, I was regulated on everything about that house .... and it was regulated as to whether I could even build it on the property, I had to check that before I bought the lot.


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## sbwertz (Sep 5, 2013)

Scruffy said:


> I had a 22 rifle before I could drive. Went hunting ground hogs and gophers at the Mississippi Levee.  We used to get 50 cent bounty for their ears.  .



When I was about 14 the farmers convinced the county to put a bounty on coyotes because they were killing lambs and chickens.

Two years later, we were up to our elbows in rabbits.  I can remember looking out the window at the sugarbeet field across the road and it was alive with rabbits.  The farmers were being eaten out of house and home.  

So they put a bounty on rabbits!  I supported my horse one whole summer by hunting rabbits.  We got ten cents for a pair of ears...cottontails or jacks.  But there was a glove factory in town that would pay 25 cents for blacktailed jackrabbits to make linings for gloves.  (Of course, back then hay was only $11 a ton!)  

I babysat for 35 cents an hour, and every summer I would gentle-break three two-year-old shetland/quarter horse-cross ponies for $50 each.  I never had an allowance, but that $150 lasted me the whole year, even paying for feed and vet bills for my horse.


I joined the Women's Army Corps when I was 18 and never lived at home  again. I went to college on the GI bill. (Neither of my children, now aged 50 and 48, ever lived at home  after college, either)


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## Smitty37 (Sep 5, 2013)

sbwertz said:


> (*Neither of my children, now aged 50 and 48, ever lived at home after college, either*)


  One of my daughters lived with us for about 3 months after she got her degree - but she got sharply reminded that "dad's house, dad's rules" still applied (she was working until midnight and took to getting home when Mom was leaving for work at 7:30am).  She decided to move out.


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## monark88 (Sep 5, 2013)

Smitty37 said:


> avbill said:
> 
> 
> > I didn't get my own BS degree until I was 44 years old and it took me 16 years.
> ...


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## monark88 (Sep 5, 2013)

As far as freedom goes, I remember my grad History teacher saying that, we are willing to "put a cop on every corner and pass more laws to protect our freedoms." That was a lonb time ago, but a pretty real quote.


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## Waluy (Sep 5, 2013)

I was born in '84 and even from then to now there are tons of things that have changed. Bikes with no helmets, gone all day with nothing more than a general idea of where you were going to be. If you were going to Tommy's house you made sure mom had the number and make sure if she needed to call you were there or Tommy's mom knew where you had went. Never had a gun myself but carried a knife from the time I was 4. Video games and TV were for days when it was too rainy (and that meant severe thunderstorms) to be outside. 

I actually managed to get my self kicked out of one of my college classes that dealt with bullying problems because I said the reason the bullying epidemic has gotten so out of control and suicide rates are soaring is because we are raising a generation of sissies. We are teaching all these kids not to fight back and to tell an adult (who typically can't do anything about it). I was raised by a simple philosophy, "Don't you ever throw the first punch but by god you better throw the last one." 

We learned basic first aid because if there was no bone showing and no immediate swelling there was no reason to let an adult know. Every pick up sport we played had the same rules: The two best kids pick the teams and no blood means no foul.

I catch a LOT of flak from people because I REFUSE to treat my 2 year old daughter with gloved hands. She falls and gets hurt, she comes over and says boo boo we say it will be okay and she is off and running again. If she chooses not to listen when asked to do something she gets told to do it, if she still refuses to do it she get a swat on the butt. 
I have technology in my house but on the weekend it gets shut off and we spend the weekend outside playing. As a result my two year old has no desire to be sitting and watching TV. She is either sitting with us reading a book, playing with action figures in her room (okay so they are actually zoo animals but same concept), or playing with the dogs outside. She helps me tend fires on the nice nights outside and knows the fire will hurt so she brings me things to put in the fire. 

I for one refuse to let the simpler times die because others can't be responsible for their own actions.


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## jimofsanston (Sep 5, 2013)

Amen


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## PeetyInMich (Sep 6, 2013)

AGREED!  Boy do I feel old now (and missing my younger days)  I have 5 stepkids from 27-18 years old and all but one are still in the house (wife wont let me raise the rent from the current 0$ to something slightly higher than the current prevailing cost of getting your own place).  And the little beggers have the nerve to complain when something isn't to their liking.  I am stuck trying to teach my 7 and 9 year old the values and morals of my time (I am 44) and they are continually influenced by the older ones that refuse to grow up and start making their own way.


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## OLDMAN5050 (Sep 6, 2013)

I rode my bicycle all over south Ga. Never had to worry about perverts taking the kids, great family shows on TV, no sex, or filthy language. All shows had a good moral to the story, A shame what we have to do now to protect our children from the horrors of TV and the perverts. I don't let my daughter ride her bicycle down the street out of my view. But we can't shield them from everthing. A lot has changed since I was raised in the 50's and 60's.


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## Jerryz (Sep 8, 2013)

My kids all went away to college and never came home. Five kids, the oldest turned 30 two days ago. We talk about it sometimes at work. I tell them that in my house it was a case of setting expectations. I don't believe that's done much anymore. I see too much, 'it's soo hard out there so let me help you.' Instead of you need a plan. Ill support your decisions but you're responsible for your plan and its success or failure. Once you have a plan, if there's a way I can provide something specific. Then you can make a very specific request. 

Instead, parents keep rescuing their children from 'problems' they perceive exist. Oh, it must be hard to go to class and find a job to cover  a car payment. You can use the extra car.


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## Marker (Sep 8, 2013)

"There is none more enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free"


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## Marker (Sep 8, 2013)

I was born in '86.     My father was a logger.   We lived for five  years off of the grid out in the woods.     We lived in a old school bus  that my Father converted into a motor home.     My parents home schooled  me and my brothers.   Today  I feel as if I was fortunate that  my mother and father home schooled me.   My father logged from Maine to Virginia.   We would park our bus out  in the woods where my Father worked.      I remember always playing out  in the woods,   and playing and Fishing in creeks.       We never  bothered getting any fishing licenses or anything like that.   For five  years we lived out in the woods, and off the grid.

   Today I look back....  and I often feel that we were more free living a life like this.


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## AnachitlPut (Sep 10, 2013)

I am 17. I grew up with out any real tv until I was ten or so. I grew up playing kick ball and wall ball outside with my siblings. No parents unless we broke a window. Latter my sister joined softball and We the younger siblings would play football. Same rules as you discribed. Capture the flag was common as well.
          I didn't go to preschool. I will be done with school this year. That's 11 years. ( junior senior in one year). College is payed for mostly by me or scholarships. Comeong home afterwards an living there isn't an option. Wouldn't if It was.  That freedoms is still acheive able to this day.


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## AnachitlPut (Sep 10, 2013)

Some add ons. We rode are bikes around to sonic or the gas station or even the middle school near my house. Be gone for hours and all we had to do is ask if it was ok. Never said no unless it was close to dark. They never worried. I spent most of my younger days playing in my neighbor hood playing with the neighbor and my siblings. Run up and down different alleys. We be outside all day  when we wanted water we get it from a hose. Played basketball late a night with a light. Even played with random kids. Parents weren't worried. Sometimes we would run around the neighborhood with bb guns. Played air soft using the hole street and neighbors yards without asking. No one. ever cared as long as we never broke any thing. Remember I am only 17. A lot as changed.


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## Scruffy (Sep 10, 2013)

*I am 72. I have a son with a grand daugther.*

Three nieces and one nephew with 6 children between them. 

Of that entire group, none of them express any need to save or be concerned about the future.  All those working hold their employers and being responsible for their station in life. Those that work for the state don't belive they have to deliver any value, just warm seats. It is somebody else's fault they can't have what they want or if they have to provide for their own needs.

I think they represent what the country has to look forward to for a long time. And I think some one has put the beacon on the hill out.


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## Smitty37 (Sep 10, 2013)

AnachitlPut said:


> *I didn't go to preschool.* *I will be done with school this year. That's 11 years. ( junior senior in one year). College is payed for mostly by me or* *scholarships.*


A couple of things - you are planning on college, that is 4 more years of school, you may not have gone to preschool but I think you probably did go to kindergarten (be very unusual if you didn't.) so it will be 16 years in school.

I'm glad you grew up where you could still be a kid during your childhood - trust me, that is very rare for someone your age today and you will be the better as an adult for having had that opportunity rather than having your whole life planned out and organized for you.


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## Mike Powell (Sep 10, 2013)

I have two sons(stepsons) that didnt have a father until three years ago.  they are 17 and 16.  They used to do nothing but sit inside and watch tv and play video games up until a year ago when they moved to Ga with me.  After a couple of months of that, I told them either go outside and hang with the guys or I will find something for you to do.  There were a few times where I had to put them to work pulling weeds or carrying off tree trimmings before they figure it out.  Now all I have to do is say "be some place else" and we dont see them till dark or they get hungry.


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## AnachitlPut (Sep 10, 2013)

No kindergarden. I was homeschooled.


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## CHARLES STOPCZYNSKI (Sep 10, 2013)

*Smitty is right!*

People who tend to be overly emotional will trade liberty for the appearance of security.

What they receive is neither!

Charlie


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## Smitty37 (Sep 10, 2013)

One thing that really bothers me [trying to figure out why] is that although the government (at all levels) claims far more authority over our lives today than it did 60 years ago - we have far less respect for authority figures now than then.    Particularily, teachers, park rangers, policemen, the postmaster, the Justice of the Peace and others who represented government.


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## monark88 (Sep 10, 2013)

Smitty37 said:


> One thing that really bothers me [trying to figure out why] is that although the government (at all levels) claims far more authority over our lives today than it did 60 years ago - we have far less respect for authority figures now than then.    Particularily, teachers, park rangers, policemen, the postmaster, the Justice of the Peace and others who represented government.


 

 Here's my opinion. Its "because" government IS in our daily lives, more today than 60 years ago. It makes us doubt what we can do or not do. We start looking over our shoulder to see who might be watching. Are we breaking some new law? Am I allowed to do this or that?

We begin to distrust. We don't like losing our freedoms that we once thought were a given. Everytime we pass a new law we lose some old freedom. 

Because of current realities, and most of us probably know what these might be, we are going to lose more freedoms. But we don't have to like it.

The total reason is a whole lot more complicated and I wish i could go on, but not appropriate here.
Russ


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## Scruffy (Sep 10, 2013)

*And the probelms that are created by the civil*

bureaucracy have significant impact on the people that they were hired to help.  and they are never held responsible,  somebody else is at fault.


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## Waluy (Sep 12, 2013)

Smitty37 said:


> One thing that really bothers me [trying to figure out why] is that although the government (at all levels) claims far more authority over our lives today than it did 60 years ago - we have far less respect for authority figures now than then.    Particularily, teachers, park rangers, policemen, the postmaster, the Justice of the Peace and others who represented government.



In my opinion its because less and less children are taught any form of respect by their parents. As a result they don't respect anyone and parents write it off by saying "Oh he has <insert name of new behavioral disorder fad here>". I have said on several occasions my children will either love me and do what I ask or fear me and do what I say, but either way they will respect me, I hope its out of love. I feel like respecting your parents is the first and most important thing to learn because it influences how you treat every other person you ever meet.


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## sbwertz (Sep 12, 2013)

A lot of it is because parents aren't ALLOWED to discipline their children.  If my kids misbehaved they got the flat of my hand on their backside.  Today, if you smack your kid, child protective services shows up at your door.


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## bjbear76 (Sep 13, 2013)

In my opinion its because less and less children are taught any form of respect by their parents. As a result they don't respect anyone and parents write it off by saying "Oh he has <insert name of new behavioral disorder fad here>". I have said on several occasions my children will either love me and do what I ask or fear me and do what I say, but either way they will respect me, I hope its out of love. I feel like respecting your parents is the first and most important thing to learn because it influences how you treat every other person you ever meet.[/quote]

Amen!  My dad was an Army sergeant, so I was taught respect, whether out of fear or love.  I think that carries over into adulthood; we respect others whether we agree with them or not.  Even today, I address people as Mr/Mrs unless they tell me to call them by their first name.  I get strange/suspicious looks when I open a door for women at the store.  Whatever happened to common courtesy and manners?  It's all about "me" and "my rights" these days.  Yeah, I feared my dad when I was a kid, but am grateful for the way he raised me.


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## Waluy (Sep 13, 2013)

sbwertz said:


> A lot of it is because parents aren't ALLOWED to discipline their children.  If my kids misbehaved they got the flat of my hand on their backside.  Today, if you smack your kid, child protective services shows up at your door.



That is one nice thing Kansas has going for it. Here you are allowed to spank your child as long as it is with your hand (no paddles anymore but mom and dad's hands always worked just as well) and with out intent to harm. 

I did recently find an interesting article on one person's take of what caused the societal shift. How Dr. Spock destroyed America


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## Smitty37 (Sep 13, 2013)

Waluy said:


> sbwertz said:
> 
> 
> > A lot of it is because parents aren't ALLOWED to discipline their children. If my kids misbehaved they got the flat of my hand on their backside. Today, if you smack your kid, child protective services shows up at your door.
> ...


I have said since the late 1960s that Dr Spock was one of worst things that ever happened to America. I did read his book and decided it was the easiest way I could think of to raise a family of spoiled brats. I had no real idea at that time though of how bad it was.

I also assigned a share of the blame to Little League, my feeling then was the same as it is now...organized sports are bad for kids below high school. I knew a guy (he was a neighbor a few years younger than me who played little league - I was too old when it came to our town) who when he was almost 50 years old, the highlight of his life was still hitting three home runs in a little league game.

That's also why I think that even 20 years ago when my kids were in high school and still today, high school sports are over emphasized too. 

My children were all pretty decent athletes and all were three season athletes and they all spent more time on sports than on any academic subject. 

They faced "punishment" if they missed a practice.

Practices were scheduled on days when school was not in session i.e. snow days.

Fall sports started two weeks before school and covered both Saturday and Sunday as well as week days. 

Wresting and basketball scheduled practice and games over the Christmas break. 

Fall sports were often not even ended when the winter sports practices started.

Kids were "honored" for sports accomplishments far more often and far more publicly than for academic achievment. (Trust me on this - 3 of my daughters were female athlete of the year when they were seniors) 

In my opinion all of that kind of thing sends the wrong message to children.

I played both basketball and baseball in high school. we got a 'letter' for varsety basketball in our senior year.

Practice before the start of school was forbidden. Football practice at the bigger schools started when school started.

We could not start basketball practice until after the 1st of November.

If there was no school (for any reason) there was no practice and no games. 

There were athletic scholarships but the smaller (division !!!) colleges did very little, if any recruiting. Their teams were 'walk on' and tryouts.


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## TellicoTurning (Sep 15, 2013)

Smitty37 said:


> I have said since the late 1960s that Dr Spock was one of worst things that ever happened to America. I did read his book and decided it was the easiest way I could think of to raise a family of spoiled brats. I had no real idea at that time though of how bad it was.
> 
> I also assigned a share of the blame to Little League, my feeling then was the same as it is now...organized sports are bad for kids below high school. I knew a guy (he was a neighbor a few years younger than me who played little league - I was too old when it came to our town) who when he was almost 50 years old, the highlight of his life was still hitting three home runs in a little league game.
> 
> ...



I couldn't agree more with this entire post... I never read Dr. Spock, and raised my son the way I was raised... taught him to think for himself, not be sassy with adults and be respectful.... today he's the owner of his own company, doing very well for himself, even though he was really only a mediocre student in school.  He once interviewed for a job, they interviewer asked if he programmed in a particular language, my son said "Oh sure, I can do that"... he was hired and had to buy a book and teach himself to program in that language over a weekend... he worked for the company for 3 or 4 years and was considered a top notch programmer, even promoted to a managerial position after a year or two... 

I never played organized sports in school... I was a working kid and didn't have time for athletics after school... but my school did start football practice in August before school started in September.  But they also started band practice then too... the athletes "lettered" if they were varsity and played a certain percentage and earned a certain level of achievement... it was not automatic.  

I did play a lot of sandlot ball during lunch and recesses... we often played full tackle football on the school ground during lunch... more often than not, I played in cowboy boots as they was my normal footwear... as it was for a lot of the boys in my school.

I noticed an article in Time magazine that "it's now time to pay our college athletes"?????  Shouldn't their pay be a good education.  In my uninformed opinion, one of the reason colleges cost so much is we spend way too much on the athletic department and use  it as a money maker for the schools, which do not benefit the students, but goes to the bottom line of the schools and to pay the athletic department salaries.  I'm an advocate of paying teachers better, but for the life of me cannot fathom why a football coach - who is in fact supposed to be a teacher - gets millions of dollars in salary and the English, History, Math and Science professor's get so much less.... our school systems has it's values definitely upside down.
I also notice that schools are traveling more to do games... Tennessee travel to Oregon for a game... they players lost a couple of days of class time and cost the college several thousand dollars (I'm pretty sure)... when did schools start to travel across country for games... what happened to playing in your local leagues... my high school's furthest opponent was only about 50 miles away...    

Never played little league, but remember that when it started in one of the bigger towns I lived in as a pre-teen and early teen that it was "try-outs", with no guarantee that you would get on a team, and the only trophies received was if the team was successful and won their league... you didn't get a trophy for just showing up and sitting on the bench.


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## glen r (Sep 15, 2013)

Leroy, I was born in 46 so can relate allot to what others have stated.  When I was about 12 and didn't have homework I used to drive our pickup about 6 miles to the farm and work in the field until it got dark.  We lived in a small town because we couldn't get power to our house on the farm.  You respected your elders, your parents and anyone you had a regular conversation with.  "Please", "thank you" and Mr. or Mrs.were mandatory and you were reminded of that if you happened to forget.  Our son was brought up with the same rules and it has done him well for 45 years.  I still call my grade 3 & grade 4 teacher Mrs. ----.  Until a few years ago when her dementia got bad she used to always tell me to call her by her first name but I never could.  We're at the point now where we are the elders and most of our friends kids and grandkids call us Mr. or Mrs. because of what their parents taught them even though we've told them to call us by our first names.  If you got the strap at school you sure didn't come home and complain because there was usually a 2 for 1 special at home.  If I had talked to my parents the way some of the kids do today I would still be looking for my teeth.  I really feel sorry for the young kids today.


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## Gin N' Tonic (Sep 15, 2013)

bjbear76 said:


> Amen!  My dad was an Army sergeant, so I was taught respect, whether out of fear or love.  I think that carries over into adulthood; we respect others whether we agree with them or not.  Even today, I address people as Mr/Mrs unless they tell me to call them by their first name.  I get strange/suspicious looks when I open a door for women at the store.  Whatever happened to common courtesy and manners?  It's all about "me" and "my rights" these days.  Yeah, I feared my dad when I was a kid, but am grateful for the way he raised me.





The only person in the world that I ever feared was my momma because she was the only person in the world that I would never raise a hand to. Momma taught me to respect my elders, respect my teachers, respect authority, and most importantly to respect myself.


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## Waluy (Sep 16, 2013)

TellicoTurning said:


> I noticed an article in Time magazine that "it's now time to pay our college athletes"?????  Shouldn't their pay be a good education.  In my uninformed opinion, one of the reason colleges cost so much is we spend way too much on the athletic department and use  it as a money maker for the schools, which do not benefit the students, but goes to the bottom line of the schools and to pay the athletic department salaries.  I'm an advocate of paying teachers better, but for the life of me cannot fathom why a football coach - who is in fact supposed to be a teacher - gets millions of dollars in salary and the English, History, Math and Science professor's get so much less.... our school systems has it's values definitely upside down.


I agree college is already too expensive, in my opinion, due in large part to how many full ride scholarships are given out for sports. We had several people in my graduating class who were at best "C" average students getting full rides to college because they played one sport or another well. Most of them I wouldn't even consider great players just good players. Yet my friends who were mostly "A" average students couldn't get any kind of scholarship.



glen r said:


> Leroy, I was born in 46 so can relate allot to what others have stated.  When I was about 12 and didn't have homework I used to drive our pickup about 6 miles to the farm and work in the field until it got dark.  We lived in a small town because we couldn't get power to our house on the farm.  You respected your elders, your parents and anyone you had a regular conversation with.  "Please", "thank you" and Mr. or Mrs.were mandatory and you were reminded of that if you happened to forget.  Our son was brought up with the same rules and it has done him well for 45 years.  I still call my grade 3 & grade 4 teacher Mrs. ----.  Until a few years ago when her dementia got bad she used to always tell me to call her by her first name but I never could.  We're at the point now where we are the elders and most of our friends kids and grandkids call us Mr. or Mrs. because of what their parents taught them even though we've told them to call us by our first names.  If you got the strap at school you sure didn't come home and complain because there was usually a 2 for 1 special at home.  If I had talked to my parents the way some of the kids do today I would still be looking for my teeth.  I really feel sorry for the young kids today.


Yeah I have seen a post on Facebook several times that says "If I had spoke to my parents the way most children today do I wouldn't be alive now to write this post." and it couldn't have been more true. Usually when I got in trouble at school though I didn't have to tell my parents, the call had already been made. Usually when I got in trouble it was for fighting and the question I got when I got home was always "Did you start the fight?" followed by "Did you end the fight?" and in my house the answer to those questions had better be "No ma'am I did not start it." and "Yes sir I did finish it." or I was in for a whooping. 



Gin N' Tonic said:


> The only person in the world that I ever feared was my momma because she was the only person in the world that I would never raise a hand to. Momma taught me to respect my elders, respect my teachers, respect authority, and most importantly to respect myself.


I raised my hand to my mother *ONCE*, we were playing around and she hit me on the arm so I hit her a little harder trying to show I was stronger, she proceeded to knock me through a wall. When I stood up she told me if I ever forgot who she was again I would get a real lesson.


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## SteveJ (Sep 16, 2013)

We paint with a wide brush when we disparage all the youth of today.  But it is a brush which has been used for centuries, from Hesiod in the eight century BC to Plato and Socrates to the WWII veterans who bemoaned the invasion of the Beatles, Elvis and rock and roll music, children have been an easy target.  And throughout history there have been great swaths of children who have accomplished far less than their abilities would indicate possible.  I've got six kids.  Five attended college, four on full academic scholarships and the fifth had her choice of an academic or music scholarship (she chose the upright bass scholarship).  The sixth is in eighth grade.  Many young people today are hard working, contributing members of our society, defenders of our freedom and worthy of our respect.

There always will be and always have been examples of individuals who have misbehaved, proven lazy and fully dependent upon others.  But the opposite is also true.   Which group we choose to focus upon will determine our disposition regarding the next generation.  They live in a different time than we did and thus have different restriction upon their freedoms and different opportunities.

When we focus on the best, not the worst; the beautiful, not the ugly; the things to praise and not the things to curse I believe we will find our attitude towards the next generation will improve.  Whether the young people of today play little league, football, the upright bass or Call of Duty in their spare time is not an indicator of their value but an indicator of their interests (or sometimes the interests of their parents).

Just a word in defense of the young people of today.

Steve


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## monark88 (Sep 16, 2013)

SMJ1957 said:


> We paint with a wide brush when we disparage all the youth of today.  But it is a brush which has been used for centuries, from Hesiod in the eight century BC to Plato and Socrates to the WWII veterans who bemoaned the invasion of the Beatles, Elvis and rock and roll music, children have been an easy target.  And throughout history there have been great swaths of children who have accomplished far less than their abilities would indicate possible.  I've got six kids.  Five attended college, four on full academic scholarships and the fifth had her choice of an academic or music scholarship (she chose the upright bass scholarship).  The sixth is in eighth grade.  Many young people today are hard working, contributing members of our society, defenders of our freedom and worthy of our respect.
> 
> There always will be and always have been examples of individuals who have misbehaved, proven lazy and fully dependent upon others.  But the opposite is also true.   Which group we choose to focus upon will determine our disposition regarding the next generation.  They live in a different time than we did and thus have different restriction upon their freedoms and different opportunities.
> 
> ...



I was going to respond at length, but I think you articulated quite well in a couple of paragraphs.

But..., when we think of our youth of today, it seems many of us expect everything to be all True, Good, and Beautiful with them, and forget how we acted as kids. 

I am not a proponent of Dr. Spock either. IMHO, probably the worst single thing that happened to parents. We, many not all, began to doubt our own abilities as parents.

Always(almost), thinking that how we got "the message" from our parents, many of us somehow feel that that method was the best for all. In other words we seem to pass along our experiences to our own kids. Sometimes good, oftentimes, not so good. Yet we still are ready to defend those same experiences.

I was a fairly strict father in correcting my daughter, but without having to mete out corporal punishment. Restrictive measures and reminders of what is expected of her in order to become a positive person(by modelling same), was quite enough. Consequently, she graduated from UN. of Tx. at Austin, Tex. My 3 grandkids (all TAG students) are in EE. school and Pre-Med school, and grandson in the 7th grade(Tag student). He also plays football.

Sorry, I am starting to ramble, I quit. One or two final observations, in my experiences with FB, from High school level to College level, football not only pays for itself, but many other sports as well. Of course it all depends on the size of the schools. 
Also, someone placed some blame on Little League. 
Its not the league, necessarily, but many parents born out of the Spock generation who have formulated and "Wimped" up the rules of the game.
Russ


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## Smitty37 (Sep 16, 2013)

Waluy said:


> *I agree college is already too expensive, in my opinion, due in large part to how many full ride scholarships are given out for sports. We had several people in my graduating class who were at best "C" average students getting full rides to college because they played one sport or another well. Most of them I wouldn't even consider great players just good players. Yet my friends who were mostly "A" average students couldn't get any kind of scholarship.*



Generally speaking I think that is at best only partly true.  Many highly rated and  very expensive colleges and universities don't give any athletic scholarships at all (such as. Ivy League schools like Yale, Harvard, Princeton etc.).   College Atheletics cost too much but I don't think that over all it's scholarships that are the problem.  I recently saw where at some Division I schools the Scholarships were only 16 to 20 per cent of the cost of Athletics....Facilities, Salaries and Games were a much bigger share.

Since all colleges seem to be rapidly increasing in cost, whether they have costly athletic programs or not I'm more inclined to think that the reasons for the high costs lie elsewhere but I'm not sure where.  I do know that for at least 35 or 40 years the cost of attending college as risen well faster than the general cost of living (which has been more than fast enough)  In 1940 it cost $50 Tuition to go to Yale, in 1950 835, in 1960 it cost $2500, in 1970 it was over $6000 and on and on.


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