# Tap and Die purchases



## Sunami (Dec 11, 2015)

A couple of newbie questions:
I have researched several places and you tube and several different people recommend several different things for sizes - Some say 10mm x 1 while another says 10 x .75 wondering why and for a newbie what would be the bare minimum sets you would need?

Second question is where? Do I need to buy them piece by piece? I have looked at the HF and Home Depot 'sets' but none contain all the right mixes.

Third - this 12 mm Triple start for the cap???  Why? what does the Trip start do and I cannot find it for the life of google...so what else would work that is relatively attainable and doesn't require a payment plan?

Thanks,

Sue


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## chet0213 (Dec 11, 2015)

I too am a newer member but purchased the m10x.75 for the front section to the body.  works great.  .75 is a smaller thread that is probably best for pens.  I do currently use 14x1 for caps as I have not yet purchase a triple lead tap and die.  The triple lead has multiple starting threads and as a result it will move further per rotation than a single lead.  They also make double lead and its personal preference but multiple lead tap and dies do cost more.  Unfortunately there are not kits to be found that sell all of what you will need so you will have to source out individual items.  There are several vendors on here that can help with that.  Just be patient, shop around and get what you need when you need it so you don't have to drop a fortune on taps and dies without having the need for all of them!  Good Luck!


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## showcaser (Dec 11, 2015)

Mike Redburn at silverpenparts.com Great Guy and a wealth of info.
I've slowly been collecting all the "stuff" myself. 
Have fun Patrick


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## mredburn (Dec 11, 2015)

Most of the fine threads we use for pen making are not in the std sets you buy in the stores.  Amazon is one place, Vicotornet.com  will have lots of choices but a $25.00 minimum.  
There are lots of members who are happy with the 1mm pitch. I recommend the .75 because your not cutting as deep a thread which can mean less stress on the material. and the hole you drill for the threads is .25mm larger which once you start designing and making pens can make a big difference.
In larger pen caps like 14mm or larger diameters the 1mm works well.


http://content.penturners.org/library/general_reference/taps_dies_kitless.pdf

There are 3 parallell threads on a triple lead screw, Your cap can start at anyone of the three threads so pattern alignment may only happen on one of them.  Because there are 3 parallel threads the cap screws on and off quicker, 3-.75 threads is really a 2.25 thread, one turn moves the cap on or off 2.25 mm at a time. With  a single point thread you have to turn the cap 3 full rotations for the same travel.
If your threads are  6mm or .250 long thats 2.6 turns verses 8.

You really dont need much more than about 4mm (.160) worht of threads but everyone works out what is comfortable for them.


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## BSea (Dec 11, 2015)

1st off, I buy my standard taps & dies from Victor Machinery, along with some drill bits I can't get locally.  

I use 10 x .75.  In many cases 10 x 1 would work as well.  But when you do a section that screws into a 10m barrel, it helps to have that extra .25 clearance. It's actually .5 because you double the amount of the difference in thread depth.  It's kind of hard to explain without pictures.  But there is a lot difference in strength between 1mm & 1.5mm.

And for triple start think of it this way. one turn on a triple start is equal to 3 turns on a standard thread.  The cap just goes on and comes off faster.

My next suggestion is to make a kitless click pen.  It's pretty straight forward, and doesn't really vary much from in how you make one. At least for the method shown in the Library.  Here's the article: http://content.penturners.org/library/pens/kitlessclickpen.pdf


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## Joey-Nieves (Dec 12, 2015)

I was once a newbie, and in many ways I still am.  I use 10mm x .75 x 3 threads as well as 12. I also have a 14 mm x ,75 x 3 that I have never used.  
I have found that 10mm based pens sell better than the 12 mm.  

For a newbie I believe that 12 mm pens can be easier to make.

This is a video I found useful
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DQna36uThA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKM9WWYob_E
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9AfZK9Hy8E
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqGjTGbQNlA

The reason I believe that 12 is easier thn 10 is because the wall thickness on a 10 mm pen for a FP section must be 1.5 mm and most materials will break very easily.  you could make a custom section but the ink converter wont fit.

Joey


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## Sunami (Dec 13, 2015)

Those are the same videos I have been reviewing but I wrote down his list of tap and dies and he has : 9 X .75, 7 X 1, 5mm, 7mm x 1 and then mentions a 10 mm x 1 for the el grande. So that is why I am scratching my head trying to make sense of it all.

Thanks for the advice!

Sue


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## Joey-Nieves (Dec 13, 2015)

Sue:
I was at that same railroad crossing not so long ago.  I'll try to give you some incite :

This drawing I made in is for a pen with a 10 mm x1 thread, El grande is such a section, other sections are 9.7 mm, 8.5, 8.4 or whatever the manufacturer feels like using.

The body must have at least 5/16"(8mm, O) so that the ink converter will fit, more if you use the one's with the metal bands.
Let's do some math; the inner threads will be 10mm and the cap threads will be 12 mm your wall will be 2mm, less the amount that the threads eat. 1.8mm approx is very thin and delicate and is about as thin as I've seen most people go when using anything other than metal.

The other measurements you heard of are for making your own sections, for those there is a tutorial in the library.  

For your first pen use the El grande Section 10mm x 1, Use a 12mm x .75 or 1 what ever you find this will have to be male and female(body and cap and 6mm male and female for the clip on the cap. Make your body a closed one.

Tip the inside depth of the body should be 3.25" from the top of the threads, that way you can use a FP section or a RB section. You may need to make some custom jigs along the way. I made a 3" shaft withe the inside threads of the body at the back, that way I screw the body in and can make the closed end body.


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## mredburn (Dec 13, 2015)

THe EL Grande Kit has a front section for Roller Ball or Fountain pen and you can use one of those with the 10 x1 tap. THe advantage is you dont have to make a front section if your not ready.  Making a roller ball front end is not hard, making a fountain pen front section means you have to  choose which nib and feed your going to use.  Typically Schmidt,Jowo, or Bock.  There are others but the Jowo (Meisternibs.com) and Bock (Classicnib.com) are the most frequently used. For any of those you will have to buy one of the specific taps for the size and brand you choose to use.  They are not cross compatible.  Then  you will have to make the front section to take the feed assembly and fit the pen.  With the EL grande you can focus on just making the cap and pen body.


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## showcaser (Dec 13, 2015)

See.... Told you Mike was very helpful


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## Joey-Nieves (Dec 13, 2015)

showcaser said:


> See.... Told you Mike was very helpful


The rest of us are chopped liver--LOL

When I grow up I want to like Mike!


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## SteveG (Dec 13, 2015)

Chopped liver is good... :befuddled:

And,

I don't wanna grow up!


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## SteveG (Dec 13, 2015)

Also, you guys who know what to do when one is about to tackle kitless, and then share that...THANKS!!:biggrin:


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## Joey-Nieves (Dec 13, 2015)

Expanding a little on the jigs and tools, this photos shows some of the tools I've bought or developed in order to make my pens.
I used an 1/2" aluminum rod and bored it down to 5/16" x 3" and threaded the back to 8.5 mm, 8.5mm  is the section thread size I most commonly use.  I also made another but with the 10mm x 1 thread.

For the caps I made 1-7/8" long rod with a 10 mm x .75 x 3 and 12 mm x .75 x 3 Used the same bit from the thread for the rest of the body.

As you experiment you will find that there are many ways to achieve the same goal, and many degrees of tolerance to use.  I can only tell you to "think simple to find the complex answers".

The first pen is my wife's pen-10 mm Cap thread
The black and orange was my first- 12 mm Cap thread
The wood pen was my second, this pen has wooden threads, but the area were I threaded was hardened with thin CA until the CA went through and through, they have not failed in a little over a year of use. - 12 mm Cap thread
The purple has an el grande Section a silver Ring.-12mm cap thread


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## showcaser (Dec 13, 2015)

Mike es el Nivel 6 Asistente de pluma , humo , espejo y juego de manos habilitado
hígado picado es bueno.


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## Joey-Nieves (Dec 14, 2015)

showcaser said:


> Mike es el Nivel 6 Asistente de pluma , humo , espejo y juego de manos habilitado
> hígado picado es bueno.




Well yeah, If you you have anemia!  My brother always had problems with his red globe count, so Dad would saute it, dice it, mix it with onions, celery and mayo and make a sandwich and make as all eat so my brother wouldn't feel bad, that's when I joined HYDRA!


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## Sunami (Dec 14, 2015)

I say you are *ALL* AWESOME and helpful...down to the drawings and pictures...it really helps SOOOOO much!!


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## jalbert (Dec 14, 2015)

I have had good luck with buying taps and dies from Welcome to Drills and Cutters | Drillsandcutters.com
They seemed to have a good selection of what I needed when I started to start make kitless pens. 

I started out using both m9 and m10x.75 threads for the sections, depending on what size nib housing I needed to drill for. I originally was using m12x.75 cap threads, but I switched to M14x.7mm triple lead threads. I cut these using my metalworking lathe and 60 degree pointed tools because I didn't feel like fooling around with trying to find triple lead taps and dies and paying the higher cost for them. 

-John


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