# Buffalo horn



## edstreet

Potential candidates.


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## OKLAHOMAN

Crack!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## edstreet

Only if you don't know how to handle it 

Seriously tho, the first one does have some pre-cracks, the other 2 are about as good quality as you can get.  Even tho the first one has pre-cracks in select areas the working on that is up there so there is great potential in it, so far anyways.


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## OKLAHOMAN

Ed, good luck. Cracking on hair horn, as Buffalo horn is keratin, the same substance as hair and nails will cause them to crack, as with things like snakewood, gator bone and others not all will but they are prone to crack.


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## edstreet

Thanks.

I am actually doing a project on buffalo horn for IAP.  It is an upcoming project detailing all those, and much more.  I have some good amount of experience with buffalo horn.  The way I work it there is no smell to it.


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## Ligget

OKLAHOMAN said:


> Crack!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



I heard that from way over here! :biggrin:


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## Jim Burr

Regardless of how it's handled...if you don't filter up and clean up, it does...not may, does cause pulmonary fibrosis. Get on the transplant list now because that is the only cure. Hope it works out though...been wanting to have a lash at a chunk.


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## raar25

Did I read correctly that working with buffalo horn causes pulmonary fibrosis?  Isnt there some level of prolonged exposure involved or can just one exposure cause it?


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## seamus7227

Jim Burr said:


> Regardless of how it's handled...if you don't filter up and clean up, it does...not may, does cause pulmonary fibrosis. Get on the transplant list now because that is the only cure. Hope it works out though...been wanting to have a lash at a chunk.


 

I always read people on the forum stating this, but can you please back up your statement with a link to where this has been confirmed. Respectfully submitted because while i realize we all should use some sort of respirator while turning, no one really says much about all of the other stuff we turn, and much of it is also dusty when turning.


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## edstreet

Bottom line is that sub 4 micron particles of anything will damage lung tissue.  Mechanical actions to remove things from the lungs is lost with small particles, fumes and the like so they build up over time.  Rule #1 is if you smell it you are breathing it.  Rule #2 is if you see it floating in the air you are breathing it.

Horn, mother of pearl, welding gases like cadmium and a good chunk of other things will cause major problems with the lungs and body and they are not likely to be removed.  Horn, bone, ivory are all abrasives and prompts the body to produce scar tissue as a response to their presence.  Fine particles goes deep into the lung tissue and the hair on the cells are unable to remove them.

OH FYI this is not to be confused with 'horn fever' which is an allergic/sensitivity reaction to the material.


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## Jim Burr

It what we are taught in med school Seamus and the information is out there for anyone to find. Mechanical/macrophage action will remove anything from the alveoli. Keratin proteins cause the lung tissue to envelope the particle causing scar tissue. Scar tissue is very stiff and not capable of gas exchange. The people like me get to give you the bad news. Better to correct your behavior now on behalf of your family.


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## raar25

First when someone posts a statement which says if you turn this stuff it is going to give you pulmonary fibrosis with back up or qualifying data, it will automatically loose the intended effect since most of us have turned this material and dont have this illness.  So these statements need to be qualified.  The lungs are an amazing part of the body.  they process necessary oxygen to the body, filter contaminants and yes they collect and expel contaminants as well.  This is done through mechincal and fluild processes.  Expecially when working with the sinuses and bronchial tubes.  Now I am not a doctor but it is clear that some things have exposure limits and they vary by material.  Obviously everything we inhail does not give us cancer or other nasty ailments immediately.  My question is how much exposure to what is bad?  Note for some people that are more sensitive, the alergic reaction may be immediate, but I have been machining wood for 45 years and I know I am not allergic to anything I have every cut, but I know that too much of some things is bad, so who has a link that gives us science based data on what materials specifically we should stay away from at all, try not to use every day or just try not to swallow too much etc.   I want to live long enough to be a cranky old wood turner, but if the only way to get there is with a hazmat suite than its no fun.  So if buffalo horn is really bad I can live without it.  But if I turn it once a year, with some decent vacume and filtration making me safe I am all there.

Sorry didnt realize how long this just became.


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## Dan Masshardt

Somebody should do a good post here or in the library about what is appropriate prevention.  

We hear more warnings than we do advice on what's appropriate protection.  In my opinion.


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## edstreet

raar25 said:


> First when someone posts a statement which says if you turn this stuff it is going to give you pulmonary fibrosis with back up or qualifying data, it will automatically loose the intended effect since most of us have turned this material and dont have this illness.  So these statements need to be qualified.  The lungs are an amazing part of the body.  they process necessary oxygen to the body, filter contaminants and yes they collect and expel contaminants as well.  This is done through mechincal and fluild processes.  Expecially when working with the sinuses and bronchial tubes.  Now I am not a doctor but it is clear that some things have exposure limits and they vary by material.  Obviously everything we inhail does not give us cancer or other nasty ailments immediately.  My question is how much exposure to what is bad?  Note for some people that are more sensitive, the alergic reaction may be immediate, but I have been machining wood for 45 years and I know I am not allergic to anything I have every cut, but I know that too much of some things is bad, so who has a link that gives us science based data on what materials specifically we should stay away from at all, try not to use every day or just try not to swallow too much etc.   I want to live long enough to be a cranky old wood turner, but if the only way to get there is with a hazmat suite than its no fun.  So if buffalo horn is really bad I can live without it.  But if I turn it once a year, with some decent vacume and filtration making me safe I am all there.
> 
> Sorry didnt realize how long this just became.




Logic fail.

Here is why.   Breathing it in wont cause 100% damage immediately but will take some damage, by the time it has built up to where you do notice it and it does cause problems it is much to late.  Exposure limits be damned, don't breath it in period.

Also the damage done is irreversible.


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## SteveJ

Try this site for some information on airborne dangers to your health.  Not sure where breathing bone or horn dust fits in the picture!

What are the Effects of Dust on the Lungs? : OSH Answers

Steve


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## SteveJ

Here is another interesting article about the prolonged effects of bone carving in India. 

India: For India's bone craftsmen, the hazards abound - Los Angeles Times

Earlier this year I decided that it is better to be safe than sorry.  It is true that some people smoke their whole life and never get lung cancer.  Others smoke and make their whole life shorter because they get lung cancer.  

Unfortunately you don't know which class you will be in until it is too late!

Steve


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## duncsuss

raar25 said:


> Now I am not a doctor but ...



... but Jim Burr _*is a Respiratory Therapist.*_

Which means he is a specialist in this sh!t and we ought to listen to what he says.

Sorry, but all this "my opinion is as valid as your scientific training" really ticks me off.


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## AngryRhino

I've turned buffalo horn before (with a mask) and it comes out beautifully.


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## raar25

Duncsuss, I may not be a doctor but if you read  the material Jim posted you will see my information was all factual and scientific,  there was no opinion in there (high school biology).  As I mentioned, the articles talk about people who work in the industries and are exposed to these enviromentments full time.  I am much more at risk of from getting sick from environmental pollution but how many of us where postiive pressure respirators when we mow the lawn or walk around our house?  Not sure if everyone realizes the primary source for dust in a house is dead skin?  So think about that when you put your head on the pillow tonight.  It is not a logic fail, becuause the body does not need to operate in a sterile enviroment.  Now I am not advocating no protection but I learned when my son was a baby that he would handle germs and sickness better if we allow him to play on the floor and get dirty so his immune system would get accustom to it.  however he was never exposed to cats since we dont have one.  Well guess what, more than an hour near a cat and he starts weezing and has ashma.  Bottom line a small amount of exposure is generally not (and there are exceptions) negative to most peoples health but yet a little precaution goes a long way especially when you are older and more sensitive as most of us are.   I would like to see some data on how much that is and I suspect there is nothing that conclusive out there.

But before everyone jumps on me for the above, FYI I vent to a 2 stage dust collector with a 1 micron filter, I have a fan next to my work with a merv 16 filter with carbon pretreatment and I wear a surgical style dust mask when I turn, not to mention I wet sand almost everything I can. But I am pretty sure this is overkill.


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## Jim Burr

raar25 said:


> Duncsuss, I may not be a doctor but...


 
And I'm not trained as an Astronaut, so I let those that know run the ISS. Nor am I a Ford mechanic so I let them fix my truck. My wife (an outstanding Respiratory Therapist by the way) and I had a chat today as we were shopping this morning regarding some of these responses. I likened it to driving a car...you don't get behind the wheel without training. You don't rent a car without a little drive in the parking lot to test everything out. My question to some of you is why on earth do you turn a material without checking into its safety first? It's only wood or something similar...right?
I have a patient that is suffering this very disease process from un-protected turning of many substances including some discussed here. I don't write the books, but the residents I train do and they get an earful of my lip about this very easy to prevent illness. 
Educate yourselves before you have to see me...then it's way to late. 
Merry Christmas!!


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## BayouPenturner

thanks for caring.  too often we think of ourselves as invincible.


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## edstreet

raar25 said:


> Duncsuss, I may not be a doctor but if you read  the material Jim posted you will see my information was all factual and scientific,  there was no opinion in there (high school biology).  As I mentioned, the articles talk about people who work in the industries and are exposed to these enviromentments full time.  I am much more at risk of from getting sick from environmental pollution but how many of us where postiive pressure respirators when we mow the lawn or walk around our house?  Not sure if everyone realizes the primary source for dust in a house is dead skin?  So think about that when you put your head on the pillow tonight.  It is not a logic fail, becuause the body does not need to operate in a sterile enviroment.  Now I am not advocating no protection but I learned when my son was a baby that he would handle germs and sickness better if we allow him to play on the floor and get dirty so his immune system would get accustom to it.  however he was never exposed to cats since we dont have one.  Well guess what, more than an hour near a cat and he starts weezing and has ashma.  Bottom line a small amount of exposure is generally not (and there are exceptions) negative to most peoples health but yet a little precaution goes a long way especially when you are older and more sensitive as most of us are.   I would like to see some data on how much that is and I suspect there is nothing that conclusive out there.
> 
> But before everyone jumps on me for the above, FYI I vent to a 2 stage dust collector with a 1 micron filter, I have a fan next to my work with a merv 16 filter with carbon pretreatment and I wear a surgical style dust mask when I turn, not to mention I wet sand almost everything I can. But I am pretty sure this is overkill.




If we were talking routine dust, human skin as you mentioned, it would be a whole new ball game.  We are talking sanding dust in this case it is abrasive.  It's like inhaling SANDPAPER.  Once damage is done that is IT.  There is no recovery.


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## Jim Burr

BayouPenturner said:


> thanks for caring.  too often we think of ourselves as invincible.


 
Jim, I find that the thought is usually "I only turn pens". Thanks for taking the time to care!! 
And Merry Christmas!!


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## seamus7227

i dont think there is anyone questioning the expertise or knowledge of any resp. therapists, but merely looking for the long term vs. short term risks on a variety of different mediums. I respect that you say that breathing in horn dusk is dangerous, but to what extent, to how much exposure, and not saying i dont believe you, because i do, just curious about any recorded data of these findings. Obviously if this is that bad, there should be recorded cases, not just testimonials. 

  I was reading(and appreciate the link) the site about the Indian carvers and the amount of exposure those people are subjected to and it was huge! I myself would never be able to recreate that type of atmosphere in what i do, so that is why i question to what extent the people that get it have been exposed. With that said, prevention is the best measure, but im not the only inquisitive person on this forum either. Besides, that is how we learn, not from hearing "just because i said so" basically. 

  Since everyone reading this can not hear the different inflections in my voice as i type this, it is again respectfully submitted and not said in such a way to anger anyone, so please, before anyone jumps my case about any questioning, please keep that in mind. thanks!


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## dennis Ruch

*Interesting*

Does the Air Shield helmet filter these hazardous dust partials so you are protected?


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## edstreet

dennis Ruch said:


> Does the Air Shield helmet filter these hazardous dust partials so you are protected?



Isn't that a positive pressure respirator?  If it is then yes it would take care of that untill you took the helmet off.  also you have the eradication/removal to look at.


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## denniszoomy

edstreet.  The way I work it there is no smell to it.[/QUOTE said:
			
		

> I have turned one buffalo horn and it smelled to high heaven.  I would love to learn how to turn it with no smell. Will it work with antler as well?


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## edstreet

denniszoomy said:


> edstreet said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .  The way I work it there is no smell to it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have turned one buffalo horn and it smelled to high heaven.  I would love to learn how to turn it with no smell. Will it work with antler as well?
Click to expand...


Sure,

Heat is your enemy.  Just say NO to heat buildup.  That's friction heat from sanding, drilling and turning.   Dull chisels will cause more heat.

Every time you overheat the item it will smell.

Sharp tools that cuts and not erode or abrade is the second key.  Eroding is abusive to the fibers and causes pre-cracks, toss in heat and you have a ruined product, lots of smell and upset clients.


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## Ligget

When I sand a turned buffalo horn barrel I wet sand it, same as I do for acrylics, may help just a little!


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## sbell111

Ed is 100% correct that heat is the enemy when working with buffalo horn.  That being said, that is the only useful information in this entire thread, in my opinion.  

Every one of us should be making sure that we have dust collection perfected in our shops.  This isn't a 'horn' thing.  It's a woodshop thing.

Come to think of it, that's also the answer to the 'smell' issue.  Ever since we worked out our dust collection, I don't smell anything that is being turned; not the eau de septic marblewood, cinnamony cocobolo, or the tasty goodness of a Jack Daniels blank.


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## pshib

I love working with buffalo horn. I did one well over a year ago and it has yet to crack. And this is after the guy I gave it to has taken it with him when he goes to drill, and left it in the work truck on several occasions when it has been bellow freezing. Perhaps it's because I heated the horn up after turning and kept applying BLO to it while keeping it as hot as I could stand it before doing a CA finish. The plating on the kit has long since worn away but the horn looks almost perfect.


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## mikespenturningz

What about dust collection. I use a Rikon dust collector but it has a 5 micon filter bag. Is that good enough? I always have my dust collector within an inch or so of my work. I don't wear any other respirator? I cannot smell anything that I turn either. I always figured I was pretty safe with this setup? There also comes a point where we can live in a bubble so as to be safe. How much safety is enough?


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## Jim Burr

Here's the thing Mike... I'm not going to cite study after study that I had to look up during school and in turning life to tell you good from bad. Like I said earlier...everyone should attempt due diligence on any material they think of using. There are two reasons, and two reasons only why people don't protect themselves while turning...ignorance and arrogance. I had to pay to learn it. My suggestion would be for the rest of you, after those that still don't get it...to earn it.


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## sbell111

mikespenturningz said:


> What about dust collection. I use a Rikon dust collector but it has a 5 micon filter bag. Is that good enough? I always have my dust collector within an inch or so of my work. I don't wear any other respirator? I cannot smell anything that I turn either. I always figured I was pretty safe with this setup? There also comes a point where we can live in a bubble so as to be safe. How much safety is enough?



I don't know what's 'good enough', but I know that it was super easy to upgrade my dust collector's five micron bag to a 0.5 micron canister.  I also don't exactly know what a micron is, but I know that the canister is going to catch smaller dust that I no longer have to breathe.

My next dust collection project is to install a cone in my dust collector.


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## mikespenturningz

Thanks guys I will look into a better bag for my collector as a fist step to getting things better. At least that is a start. Menards had a 1 micron filter for $29.99 with free shipping. I ordered that. This should be a good start that is for sure?


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## BayouPenturner

I had setup my dust collector outside my shop so everything from the lathes exit the shop.  I will still use a respirator because I don't need any other Heath issues at my young age of 63.  there are enough restrictions to my enjoying the shop already.  thanks for sharing the past learning so that someonelse had to learn the hard way.


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## edstreet

Shameless BUMP.

http://www.penturners.org/forum/f13/oh-give-me-home-where-buffalo-roam-136225/


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## ed4copies

Bask in 2013, when you actually contributed to the community!!

What a degradation in a couple years.


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## seamus7227

ed4copies said:


> Bask in 2013, when you actually contributed to the community!!
> 
> What a degradation in a couple years.



Wow, is that really necessary Ed?


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## ed4copies

For those who don't know, EdStreet is now emailing all his friends and asking them to come and post--one came, the rest will follow.

Yes, it IS necessary, I have had enough!


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## PR_Princess

Yes, Seamus it is.


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## seamus7227

ed4copies said:


> For those who don't know, EdStreet is now emailing all his friends and asking them to come and post--one came, the rest will follow.
> 
> Yes, it IS necessary, I have had enough!



if you are "better" than this, why are you wasting your time with it? I dont know what the beef is, but it seems quite childish. Whether you agree or disagree with ones opinions, cant we all just get along? 

And im not sure if you are referring to me as one of his "friends", but its kind of hard to miss it when the post is refreshed on the front page of IAP and low and behold your name is on it as the person that commented.


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## ed4copies

seamus7227 said:


> ed4copies said:
> 
> 
> 
> For those who don't know, EdStreet is now emailing all his friends and asking them to come and post--one came, the rest will follow.
> 
> Yes, it IS necessary, I have had enough!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> if you are "better" than this, why are you wasting your time with it? I dont know what the beef is, but it seems quite childish. Whether you agree or disagree with ones opinions, cant we all just get along?
> 
> And im not sure if you are referring to me as one of his "friends", but its kind of hard to miss it when the post is refreshed on the front page of IAP and low and behold your name is on it as the person that commented.
Click to expand...


Ed's "shadowing" me and posting on threads of our customers is having a negative effect on the  "fun" in penmaking.   When he stops, I will leave him alone, as I have done for the most part on Jerry's facebook forum.  

When he harasses my customers and my friends, I am compelled to voice an opinion.

I'm sure you would do the same if I started telling your customers that your snakes were not really snakes, at all!!


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## edstreet

As listed elsewhere I found a good site detailing working with horn.

Using and working with Horn - Working Horn

Using and working with Horn - Definitions of Horn.


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## NittanyLion

edstreet said:


> As listed elsewhere I found a good site detailing working with horn.
> 
> Using and working with Horn - Working Horn
> 
> Using and working with Horn - Definitions of Horn.





Good info here Ed, thanks for sharing.  I found this....interesting piece:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxc77xE0_po


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## edstreet

NittanyLion said:


> edstreet said:
> 
> 
> 
> As listed elsewhere I found a good site detailing working with horn.
> 
> Using and working with Horn - Working Horn
> 
> Using and working with Horn - Definitions of Horn.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good info here Ed, thanks for sharing.  I found this....interesting piece:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxc77xE0_po
Click to expand...



Yes, good video.  We have been using horn with knives for a very very very long time.  Here is one that I made about 10 years ago.


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## farmer

*Horn antler tusk*

You could heat the water buffalo horn up an pour some thin ca into the pours of the horn.

Water buffalo horn is extremely porous not really that hard to stabilize with CA or thin epoxy.

I do allot of work using antler or horn.
I am one of those that only uses Natural materials. 
Anything white is always animal bone horn antler or  tusk. 

After I drill my antler or bone I normally plug one end and fill the hole with a thin epoxy.

Wood hardener works too..............

Ps we all should be wearing something to protect our lungs on almost everything we turn or drill cut or machine. 
Cant believe you guys are having words over this, I thought you all were friends ?

Farmer.
Not much land dam few cattle


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## farmer

*Knife*



edstreet said:


> NittanyLion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> edstreet said:
> 
> 
> 
> As listed elsewhere I found a good site detailing working with horn.
> 
> Using and working with Horn - Working Horn
> 
> Using and working with Horn - Definitions of Horn.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good info here Ed, thanks for sharing.  I found this....interesting piece:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxc77xE0_po
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, good video.  We have been using horn with knives for a very very very long time.  Here is one that I made about 10 years ago.
Click to expand...


Nice work Ed


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## darrin1200

Have you ever stabilized buffalo horn with cactus juice, or would the heat from curing be problematic?





farmer said:


> You could heat the water buffalo horn up an pour some thin ca into the pours of the horn.
> 
> Water buffalo horn is extremely porous not really that hard to stabilize with CA or thin epoxy.
> 
> I do allot of work using antler or horn.
> I am one of those that only uses Natural materials.
> Anything white is always animal bone horn antler or  tusk.
> 
> After I drill my antler or bone I normally plug one end and fill the hole with a thin epoxy.
> 
> Wood hardener works too..............
> 
> Ps we all should be wearing something to protect our lungs on almost everything we turn or drill cut or machine.
> Cant believe you guys are having words over this, I thought you all were friends ?
> 
> Farmer.
> Not much land dam few cattle


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## edstreet

darrin1200 said:


> Have you ever stabilized buffalo horn with cactus juice, or would the heat from curing be problematic?




It can be done but pointless and costly. Penetration depth will net you at most something like 1/32".  You can see the sides where the stabilizing/dye stopped penetrating.

This is professionally stabilized and red dyed with equipment that is unobtainable via the home/backyard stabilizing setup, from 2005.


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## farmer

*Horn*



darrin1200 said:


> Have you ever stabilized buffalo horn with cactus juice, or would the heat from curing be problematic?
> 
> 
> Sorry never tried cactus juice.
> 
> I have also never stained water buffalo horn.
> I have stained elk horn on the end cut of the horn in coffee


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