# Selling antler in PA



## Codesman

We have only been turning for a short time. And have experimented  with some antler I had.  I made several cartridge/antler pens for gifts at Christmas.  I have one that I use daily.  Over the weekend someone commented on the pen and said that it was illegal to sell antlers in PA.  I have researched this and found sections 2307  and 2312 of the PA game commission regulations that states it is illegal to sell shed antlers.  We have seen antler crafts at craft shows in the area many times.  Also PSI sells antlers and they are in PA.  Does anyone have an answer to selling antlers in PA?

Shawn & Josh[?]


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## Rifleman1776

Selling animal parts laws are varied and confusing. This results in stories and rumors no end. And, equally, no end of self made 'experts'. Take this as from the FWIW department: consider the level of priority for law enforcement. The 'antler police' will not be peering through keyholes looking for you selling a pen with a bit of antler on it, IMHO.


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## sbell111

Let me preface my post by stating that I am not licensed to practice law in Pennsylvania and that this post should not be taken as legal advice.

That being said, Section 2307 does not apply to shed antler or antlers from deer who were killed legally.  

Regarding Section 2312, a couple things jump out.  First The rule refers to the purchase (or sale) of 'any game or the edible parts of game or any protected bird or animal or parts of any protected bird or animal'.  It also begins with 'unless otherwise provided', which suggests that there are allowable methods to buy or sell these items.  I would argue that this rule does not apply to shed antler, since these items are not 'parts of an animal' at the time that they are collected.

The exceptions to this rule allow for the sale of 'the sale or purchase of any inedible part thereof, from game or wildlife lawfully killed, if such parts are disposed of by the original owner within 90 days after the close of the season in which the game or wildlife was taken'.  Therefore, if following the letter of the law, you could purchase non-shed antler (from animals that were taken legally) between September 1 and April 10th(ish).  However, I doubt that a reasonable person would choose to apply this regulation to non-shed antler (from animals taken legally) no matter what time of year it is.  

Further, I don't believe that either of these rules could be applied to the sale of pens made out of legally obtained antler.


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## Proud_Poppa_of_2

> _Originally posted by sbell111_
> 
> That being said, Section 2307 does not apply to shed antler or antlers from deer who were killed legally.



I disagree.  Subsection (d)(2) states: "This section shall not apply to: . . .  (2) Individuals who find and retain for their own use any deer or elk antler which is shed through natural causes. This paragraph shall not be construed to permit any individual possessing a shed antler to sell, barter or trade or to offer to sell, barter or trade any shed antler</u>." (emphasis added).

It seems to me that the regulation prohibits any commercial exchange of shed deer or elk antler.  Having said that, the regulation pertains only to Pennsylvania antler, not imported antler, as long as the imported antler was "taken" legally.  (See 2307(c).)  Thus, PSI might be selling imported antler.  Further, I have not read through the regulations to find the definitions, but section 2307 is vague insofar as it does not make clear whether it pertains to the entire rack only or to antler pieces, as well.


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## sbell111

> _Originally posted by Proud_Poppa_of_2_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Originally posted by sbell111_
> 
> That being said, Section 2307 does not apply to shed antler or antlers from deer who were killed legally.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I disagree.  Subsection (d)(2) states: "This section shall not apply to: . . .  (2) Individuals who find and retain for their own use any deer or elk antler which is shed through natural causes. This paragraph shall not be construed to permit any individual possessing a shed antler to sell, barter or trade or to offer to sell, barter or trade any shed antler</u>." (emphasis added).
> 
> It seems to me that the regulation prohibits any commercial exchange of shed deer or elk antler.  Having said that, the regulation pertains only to Pennsylvania antler, not imported antler, as long as the imported antler was "taken" legally.  (See 2307(c).)  Thus, PSI might be selling imported antler.  Further, I have not read through the regulations to find the definitions, but section 2307 is vague insofar as it does not make clear whether it pertains to the entire rack only or to antler pieces, as well.
Click to expand...

Subsection d are the exceptions to the rule.  The general rule would still control.



> (a) General rule. - It is unlawful for any person to aid, abet, attempt or conspire to hunt for or take or possess, use, transport or conceal any game or wildlife unlawfully taken or not properly marked or any part thereof, or to hunt for, trap, take, kill, transport, conceal, possess or use any game or wildlife contrary to the provisions of this title."


The exception states that it should not be construed to permit any individual possessing, selling, bartering, or trading shed antler because other laws or regs might forbid that activity in certain situations.  This rule, however, clearly does not pertain to shed antler.


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## OldWrangler

*  Now in this topic I am unfortunately</u> well-versed having spent 17 months in a Federal "Grey-Bar Resort" because of flowers. I won't go into detail only to say that the government, both State and Fed can and will do anything they want regarding vague or implied laws regarding plants or animals. The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service has been put under Homeland Security now and they think they are the Gestapo. If they suspect something, they will dog you, search your home, take documents, confiscate your computer and run you out of money trying to defend yourself. If they don't make a plea bargain, then they just railroad you into prison with the help of a Judge who thinks everybody is a drug dealer.
If they want to pursue a "crime" like selling a shed antler, they have the money, people and backing of the Justice Dept to do so. They can and will interpret a law to their advantage regardless how it reads. This country has become overcriminalized and the prisons currently house over 3 million people, some for crimes that are not even misdemeaners in other countries.
So just be careful of these vague and ambiguous laws. They are written that way on purpose.*


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## sbell111

It should be noted that the Rules being discussed are those of the Pennsylvania Game Commission, not the US Fish and Wildlife Service.  That being said, it's my understanding the Fish & Wildlife Service remains within the Department of Interior, not the Department of Homeland Security.


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## OldWrangler

*  The USF&WS operates under the Patriot Act and is one of the most powerful Law Agencies in the country. With an annual budget of over 7 BILLION dollars, they can do what they want. And another thing to consider is if the State investigates, tries and even convicts an offender. The Feds can decide that the penalty is insufficient and override the State and retry that person under Fed law with more serious consequences. The Feds have somewhere over 3,500 criminal offences under their jurisdiction and can create more at any time it suits them. Federal attornies do not answer to any kind of Bar Assoc. and answer to only the Dept. of Justice. I know for a fact that they can and will destroy evidence, falsify information, intimidate witnesses and mis-represent information before the court. The Fed Judges know this and are powerless to do anything and are often bound in decisions by the Fed. Sentencing Guidelines  which make no distinction between hardened criminals and others caught up in this whirlwind.*


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## gerryr

According to the Department of Homeland Security website, no part of the Interior Department is part of Homeland Security, so you are incorrect.

http://www.dhs.gov/xabout/history/editorial_0133.shtm 

And please stop yelling.  Bold type on forums is the equivalent of yelling at people.


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## sbell111

After this post, I'll bail from this thread.





> _Originally posted by OldWrangler_... Sentencing Guidelines  which make no distinction between hardened criminals and others caught up in this whirlwind.


The Supreme Court has recently held that judges need not be bound by sentencing guidelines, as long as they consider the guidelines.

How about we get back to talking about making pens?  That's much more fun than talking about law.


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## OldWrangler

This will be my last word on this subject</u>. I spent 4 years and all my life savings (over $100,000.00) fighting the government over 75 mis-named flower plants. I know what they did to me. I was let out 2 months early when the Appeal Court agreed with my appeal. Six months later the government had my appeal decision overturned and I was sent back to serve 57 days. The Booker decision about the Sentencing guidelines changed nothing. The courts are still using them for locking away people for draconian sentences and the prisons are over filled with non-criminals.
The U.S. Court System is broken beyond repair and having no effect on reducing crime.


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## Jarheaded

Something sounds strange here. This basically sounds like another waste of tax payers money. It's a deer antler that was on the ground, maybe they are upset that they can't collect a fine from a deer for littering or something. I am not even going to touch the flower thing. I have spent a good part of my life working for the government and didn't understand most of what we were doing, but it was my job and I was going to do it to the best of my ability. Basically if you are worried about it, don't do it. And if you do take part in it, you will lose, they have more money and time to spend on it than you do.


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## hunter-27

How about a simple OMG here on this topic.


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## Rifleman1776

Not the first time this kind of subject has gone far afield without proving beneficial to forum members. And, it is not only here I have seen similar extended, but pointless, discussions. Mods, please lock.


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## loglugger

no harm, no foul, let it roll. 
Bob


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## RONB

Never tug on Supermans cape!


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## Codesman

I contacted the PA Game Commission and asked the question.  Shed antlers can not be sold in PA if they are found in PA.  Crafts can be made from antler if purchased from out of state or if not native to PA.  The antler I purchased was from out west and was Mule deer not white tail.  Officer suggested to have proof of out of state purchase available if at craft shows and the like.  Thanks for your responses 


Shawn


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## Jarheaded

Shawn, 
It is legal in my state to sell, buy , and use antler. If you would like  to purchaqse a small amount, I would be happy to give you a receipt for it. That should make it all nice and legal. PM me if you would like to do that.
 Johnnie


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## wdcav1952

> _Originally posted by OldWrangler_
> 
> This will be my last word on this subject</u>. I spent 4 years and all my life savings (over $100,000.00) fighting the government over 75 mis-named flower plants. I know what they did to me. I was let out 2 months early when the Appeal Court agreed with my appeal. Six months later the government had my appeal decision overturned and I was sent back to serve 57 days. The Booker decision about the Sentencing guidelines changed nothing. The courts are still using them for locking away people for draconian sentences and the prisons are over filled with non-criminals.
> The U.S. Court System is broken beyond repair and having no effect on reducing crime.




There is a quite a lot of reading out there about your case, George.  While there is obviously a great deal of difference between importing plants from a foreign country and picking up shed antlers you make a valid point that one should know the laws that regulate their activities.

I do find your rant comparing officers of the law to the Gestapo a bit odious.  Working with inmates on a daily basis, I find that most of them think they got a raw deal from the courts.  The bottom line is that if you refrain from questionable activities you are very unlikely to be hassled by law enforcement.


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## OldWrangler

Cav,
I had been in business for almost 30 years, had all concievable permits, CITES documents from the country of origin, inspection in country of origin, inspection by both U.S.Customs and the U.S. Dept of Ag and it was not until 4 years later, they made a Federal case of it.
Six Fed Agents wearing Body Armor and drawn weapons came in my house and did a search....looked like the Gestapo to me.
And virtually every inmate thinks he got a raw deal but in talking to many of them over my 15 months, many of them did. They were black or Mexican or poor and just pushed through the Federal wringer. If you deal with inmates you must know that this is the case.
P.S. Glad you found my story on the Internet and took some time to look at it. My only point in this was to warn others that even something innoculous like an antler shed can cause you some grief if you don't know the law.


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## Tonto

Friends who work at the US Fish & Wildlife Service will enjoy knowing they have a $7billion budget, a quick check shows a budget hovering around $2billion.  And the post saying that USFWS is still an Interior Bureau is correct.  A better rant would ask questions about TSA, a true waste of your tax dollars and they are under Homeland Security.  My experience with LE types regardless of the agency is you have a high percentage of the gungho/yahoo factor.  When the good guys wear masks, start to worry.  Trade in wildlife parts, feathers, fur is controlled at both the state and federal level.  I agree with strict enforcement but understand mistakes happen and overwhelming force is sometimes abused.


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