# Celtic knot take 2



## duderubble (Jun 1, 2020)

So I lied. Using the guidance I got here (thanks everyone!) I used the cut partway through method. I don't have the patience to make jig or a sled so I used the miter dohickey on my saw. Seems to have worked well. It's straight and even all the way around (good enough for government work). So the only problem with this one was I was so happy the knit was good I was afraid to turn it thinner and it looks a little bottom heavy. Like a fat bottomed Irish girl. 

Wood is cherry I think. Veneer still maple and walnut but four pieces was a better fit.


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## Dieseldoc (Jun 1, 2020)

Got a good start on improvement, don't stop now you will get it. !!!!!


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## duderubble (Jun 1, 2020)

By the way that's no disrespect to the flat-bottomed Irish girls. After all they make the rockin' world go round. Or maybe the clogging world.


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## jjjaworski (Jun 1, 2020)

Looks very nice.


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## jttheclockman (Jun 1, 2020)

Now that you did them both ways which way do you prefer?? Looks better and you are getting there. A jig will take most of the little errors out so if you plan on this it would be wise to make something quick that has a stop and hold down clamps and you will see even more improvement.


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## duderubble (Jun 1, 2020)

jttheclockman said:


> Now that you did them both ways which way do you prefer?? Looks better and you are getting there. A jig will take most of the little errors out so if you plan on this it would be wise to make something quick that has a stop and hold down clamps and you will see even more improvement.



I'm pretty happy with this one. I doubt I'll make many more. It was something I wanted to try. If I was going to make a bunch I'd do a Jig to simplify the process. I have other things I want to do. Inlay is up next I think.


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## magpens (Jun 1, 2020)

Looking much better, @duderubble  !!! . Thanks for showing !

Does this one also have the 5-layer veneer insert like the first one ? . Looks like it does but not completely sure from the picture.


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## mark james (Jun 1, 2020)

Very nicely done.  And as you discovered, with a few tweaks, the "Knot" is very easily done.      .

Now to progress to inlays - nice choice!


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## mnerland (Jun 1, 2020)

duderubble said:


> So I lied. Using the guidance I got here (thanks everyone!) I used the cut partway through method. I don't have the patience to make jig or a sled so I used the miter dohickey on my saw. Seems to have worked well. It's straight and even all the way around (good enough for government work). So the only problem with this one was I was so happy the knit was good I was afraid to turn it thinner and it looks a little bottom heavy. Like a fat bottomed Irish girl.
> 
> Wood is cherry I think. Veneer still maple and walnut but four pieces was a better fit.


Nice job! Looks like you have mastered the "dohickey".  That's kinda what it's all about. What works for you! You'll get great training and advice here, but when someone starts talking "micrometers and microscopes" it starts to lean away from woodworking....in my opinion. There was alot of fine woodworking done 200-300 years ago without the power tools we use today.


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## ramaroodle (Jun 2, 2020)

You can always take it apart and put the bottom half back on the lathe.


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## ramaroodle (Jun 2, 2020)

Now you can see the bad thing about this method though. Now you have glue lines either because the kerf was too big or the insert wedged the gap open. I think if you get the alignment thing fixed you got better results with your first method because your edges were crisp and you had no 
glue lines.  I was thinking about trying your method next time if I can get the alignment right.


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## duderubble (Jun 2, 2020)

ramaroodle said:


> Now you can see the bad thing about this method though. Now you have glue lines either because the kerf was too big or the insert wedged the gap open. I think if you get the alignment thing fixed you got better results with your first method because your edges were crisp and you had no
> glue lines.  I was thinking about trying your method next time if I can get the alignment right.
> View attachment 240060


I tell myself because the walnut is dark no one but a pen geek knows that isn't just darker grain in the walnut.


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## duderubble (Jun 2, 2020)

magpens said:


> Looking much better, @duderubble  !!! . Thanks for showing !
> 
> Does this one also have the 5-layer veneer insert like the first one ? . Looks like it does but not completely sure from the picture.


Four in this one. Walnut maple maple walnut.


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## magpens (Jun 2, 2020)

There is something interesting and rather attractive about this example ....

Looking at the picture presented, there are 4 "cross-unders" ... the 4 "straights" all cross under the 2 "loops". 

What do things look like on the other side of the pen ?

Can you remember the order of your cuts/insertions ?

I would be interested to know, please ... if it's not too much trouble ... even just a verbal report would be helpful.


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## jttheclockman (Jun 2, 2020)

magpens said:


> There is something interesting and rather attractive about this example ....
> 
> Looking at the picture presented, there are 4 "cross-unders" ... the 4 "straights" all cross under the 2 "loops".
> 
> ...


This is what I was talking about when you cut in order or if you cut using the opposite sides order. 

Guy, what Mal is asking how did you cut the sides numbered 1-2-3-4 straight around the blank, or did you stagger 1 and 2 is 180 degrees opposite it. 3 and then 4 opposite that??


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## duderubble (Jun 2, 2020)

magpens said:


> There is something interesting and rather attractive about this example ....
> 
> Looking at the picture presented, there are 4 "cross-unders" ... the 4 "straights" all cross under the 2 "loops".
> 
> ...


I did opposite sides. So one side then its opposite. For the final two i just picked one of the remaining sides to do first. 

Here's the other side.


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## magpens (Jun 2, 2020)

WOW !!! . I think that is fantastic .... on this side we have 4 cross-OVERS, whereas we had 4 cross-UNDERS on the first side you showed.

I VERY MUCH like that result !!!!!

Congratulations !!!! . You have achieved something that I have long wanted to actually see !!!!!

THANK YOU for this additional picture !!!


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## jttheclockman (Jun 2, 2020)

Mal this is what you see when you do that as in the same thing with my 2 I had shown on his first knot thread. the red and yellow sierra and the black and aluminum one. They are done with opposite sides. If you do in order the bands alternate.Sorry I have no example because I do not do them that way but there are examples in segmented forum. Maybe I will borrow one and show it.

From Dogrunner who makes some beautiful knots. Hope does not mind me borrowing his photo from the segmenting forum



			http://www.penturners.org/photos/images/23262/1_DSCN0516.JPG


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## ramaroodle (Jun 2, 2020)

duderubble said:


> I did opposite sides. So one side then its opposite. For the final two i just picked one of the remaining sides to do first.
> 
> Here's the other side.


So, then that's not what made your original from the other day be misaligned? (cuz I still think that one turned out better overall)


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## duderubble (Jun 3, 2020)

ramaroodle said:


> So, then that's not what made your original from the other day be misaligned? (cuz I still think that one turned out better overall)


The original I cut clean through on a compound miter saw. There was one more piece of veneer in the stack. I think that was the primary reason it didn't line up. I think you could go all the way through if you had a correctly sized inset and glued using a 90% straight edge. I may try it some day. More likely I'll use similar techniques to do segmenting other than Celtic knots.


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## ramaroodle (Jun 3, 2020)

duderubble said:


> The original I cut clean through on a compound miter saw. There was one more piece of veneer in the stack. I think that was the primary reason it didn't line up. I think you could go all the way through if you had a correctly sized inset and glued using a 90% straight edge. I may try it some day. More likely I'll use similar techniques to do segmenting other than Celtic knots.


But if all of the stacks were of equal thickness shouldn't they have lined up?


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## magpens (Jun 3, 2020)

I agree with Andy (ramaroodle) .... 

.... if all the stacks (inserts) are of equal thickness ... it doesn't matter what the thickness is ... alignment should be possible.


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## ramaroodle (Jun 3, 2020)

magpens said:


> I agree with Andy (ramaroodle) ....
> 
> .... if all the stacks (inserts) are of equal thickness ... it doesn't matter what the thickness is ... alignment should be possible.


Yeah.  I hate to keep harping on it but his first try with the exception of the alignment was perfect with no glue lines  That was my pet peeve using the "don't cut all the way through" method.  It's challenging and frustrating because you don't know how it's gonna end up until you're done.

Also, as stated below, ...


magpens said:


> WOW !!! . I think that is fantastic .... on this side we have 4 cross-OVERS, whereas we had 4 cross-UNDERS on the first side you showed.
> 
> Congratulations !!!! . You have achieved something that I have long wanted to actually see !!!!!



I know I'm being OCD but I'm trying to figure out how to get all 3 things accomplished with some predictability and it seems we are darned close to figuring this out.
1. Alignment (gotta be the way the blanks were oriented?)
2. No glue lines (seems like cutting all the way through fixes that)
3. cross overs and cross unders (I have no idea how to make that happen consistently)

@duderubble has come closer to that than anybody I have seen.  I'm just trying to figure out how to reproduce it predictably and consistently.  If I'm selling the pen I can't have misalignment or glue lines.  I can live with the over/under thing.


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## magpens (Jun 3, 2020)

Well ... since you have bared your soul on this topic ... I will bare mine, also being OCD . .

I cannot live without understanding the over/under thing and getting it the way I want it ... reproducibly. . Can't stand random over/under.

The alignment should be possible whether or not you cut right through ... by matching grain patterns after each ACCURATE cut .

The glue lines ... important to minimize, I agree on that. . 
BUT .... Cutting all the way through .... or not .... should not be a factor for this .... as long as it is done accurately which includes SQUARELY.


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## ramaroodle (Jun 3, 2020)

magpens said:


> Well ... since you have bared your soul on this topic ... I will bare mine, also being OCD . .
> 
> I cannot live without understanding the over/under thing and getting it the way I want it ... reproducibly. . Can't stand random over/under.
> 
> ...


Agreed.  It's my experience that the glue lines are a result of the inserts not being EXACTLY the width of the kerf, which is almost impossible to do when the inlay is made up of thin veneers which really aren't uniform.  Too wide and you get a gap and too narrow you get a glue line because the kerf gets spread and pinched. You can't really change the width of the kerf so it's the width of the insert that varies and is hard to match, which is why I like the look of the "cut through" method.

I also cannot live without knowing what causes the over-under thing and how to repeat it.  All would be good with the world if I could figure it out.


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## magpens (Jun 3, 2020)

Got it, @ramaroodle  !!

Thanks for elaborating !!

Not that the "cut only 90% of the way through  method" is going to solve it ... you still must adjust the veneer/whatever thickness as best you can.


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## mark james (Jun 3, 2020)

I've been following this lively discussion even though Celtic Knots are not my cup of tea.

Just to add to the discussion - I can get my inlays to exact dimensions:  Byrnes Thickness Sander.  Yes, a very expensive "Toy," but for those of you who sell pens, would 5-10 additional sales pay for itself???

And I have found many uses for this "Toy" with other segmenting designs.


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## magpens (Jun 3, 2020)

Thanks for your input, Mark.

That suggestion means a lot, coming from you.

Don't make pens to sell, so am not interested in the sales value of "perfection"; but I am interested in the construction principles involved.


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## mark james (Jun 3, 2020)

magpens said:


> Thanks for your input, Mark.
> 
> That suggestion means a lot, coming from you.
> 
> Don't make pens to sell, so am not interested in the sales value of "perfection"; but *I am interested in the construction principles involved.*



That is why I am following this - I have done celtic knots, but by no means have any real skills to add to those of you who have perfected this design, or are wanting to up your game, but I find this thread an excellent exchange of ideas.

Great discussion folks!


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## ramaroodle (Jun 3, 2020)

You're right.  That is an expensive toy, but nice.  I remember reading about that and your table saw some time ago.


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## jttheclockman (Jun 3, 2020)

I am following and have posted my replys but I guess no one wants to recognise them or do not believe me but will once again try because I want to.  I will say this probably the best way is to do one of each way yourself and taking notes as you go. This way you see first hand. Knots are easy to do. Not cutting all the way through is the most accurate way to keep glue up aligned and straight and true. Match the kerf is so easy. I always take a scrap block before I start doing the knot and cut a slice through it half the thickness. This way the scrap stay solid and no play from jamming too much inlay material or too little inlay material in it. Now I have a solid number or measurement. If you plan on building layers for the inlay then accuracy counts for aesthetic purposes. Many people choose to use materials like pickguard because they are miced out already and sold as panels. Now it is possible you may have to sand down some to fit exact and then you can use power sanders or drum sanders but if you are talking small amounts then place on a flat solid board or plate glass and use a block of wood with sandpaper wrapped around it and long even strokes sand it down. You should never have to sand much and if you do then your original plys are too thick and use something thinner. Now if you want to make plys then you need to be somewhat familar with your tools being bandsaw or tablesaw and how to cut veneers. I can not help there. No need for expensive drum sander but if you have one it can help if it is tuned. Just like your saws need to be. Again you can always buy veneers and glue together. They have been milled already for you and that is the easiest way. It is not impossible to get exact inlays at all. Again info above should help. Glue lines are something that needs to be addressed and again I mentioned how I handle it with adding paint or epoxy dyes to my epoxy glue when gluing in inlay. I will again show the black acrylic and aluminum knot. No matter what I did you will never be exact with matching but when I shown this photo It was spotted in the first post by Hank Lee that he noticed the outer edges of the aluminum had a black line and he was correct because I used black dye in epoxy to accommodate any imperfections and it blends in like it was meant to be.  

Now cutting all the way through is another method and it takes much more exactness to keep everything aligned. But also and this is important the material you are inlaying needs to be dead flat and true moreso than if not cutting all the way through. Why you ask. Because now you are gluing flat surfaces to each other. The cuts you made using whatever saw needs to be flat and no rough edges. Can be done with fine tuned saws. Bandsaw are more apt to give a jagged cut because the blade can flutter being so thin. Now if you try sanding that edge down it has to match the same degree angle you are cutting at or all alignments will be off and it will show no matter what you do. Same goes for inlay. It can not be thicker on one end than the other because it throws alignment off and no way to correct. again better to use something that has been milled such as guitar pick or even metals. But start making your own veneers you need to be better equipped to handle it. I showed my method of gluing when cutting all the way through and using an aluminum angle. This establishes 2 exact points. 

This is getting long and people do not like reading long posts but so much needs to be said. 

The over under has been explained and you can go back to other knot post if you want to read my explanation. But again if you do not believe me then try them yourself and take notes. One thing I will add that was not mentioned there was the knot can take on a different look if using wood, when you go to number the sides. If you start with 1 being on face grain and 2 being on end grain if numbering in sequential order, will look different than if you started with 1 on end grain and 2 on face grain. This is why if you do the opposite numbering system where 1 is on face grain and 2 is on opposite side face grain will look different if you started with 1 on end grain and 2 on opposite end grain. If using acrylic this all goes away as shown again in my example. 

Not much more to say on this. There are many videos out there on making these. Maybe that would help. Hope I cleared the gap situation up. The inlay material was not square to sum it up and or the cuts were not flat when cut all the way through and same when partial cutting.


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## ramaroodle (Jun 3, 2020)

jttheclockman said:


> I am following and have posted my replys but I guess no one wants to recognise them or do not believe me but will once again try because I want to.


Not sure why you think nobody is listening or doesn't believe you.  We're just sharing ideas and experiences that we've had. Apparently you have posted about the over-under thing and have a method.  Good to know.  You may have mentioned it earlier or posted a link I must have missed that.  I'll have to go back and check and read your responses more closely.


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## jttheclockman (Jun 3, 2020)

ramaroodle said:


> Not sure why you think nobody is listening or doesn't believe you.  We're just sharing ideas and experiences that we've had. Apparently you have posted about the over-under thing and have a method.  Good to know.  You may have mentioned it earlier or posted a link I must have missed that.  I'll have to go back and check and read your responses more closely.


Andy I mentioned it further up the thread. I say this because it seems you and Mal asked the same question a couple times already. I realize you are having a discussion and the way I am reading it there was still some confusion. Maybe I am not expressing the answer correctly and I can help in some better way. Just let me know. I tried explaining the gap thing and the over under things. Maybe as I said the best thing is to experiment for yourself and take some notes and gives us your findings. If I would have known this was coming up I would have taken a few photos of a knot I just finished up. Maybe next time I will do the experiment doing many different ways and document it. Doing both cutting all the way through and not. Plus doing the over under sequence. May even throw some wood grain changes in too. Just started working in the shop again so I have a few pens on the board right now I would like to finish. Was waiting on some mica powders. Seems with this virus thing shipments are way slower these days. 

Now this said. You have a knot as your avatar. Can you explain that one??  How did you make the cuts on it??  I am guessing in direct sequence 1-4. did you cut all the way through?? The inlay material is what and how did you come by it?? What did you make the cuts with?? Do you use a jig?? What do you use to glue blank??  Do you have any better shots of the blank or pen?? This would be a good way to keep discussion going with actual photo.


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## ramaroodle (Jun 4, 2020)

jttheclockman said:


> Now this said. You have a knot as your avatar. Can you explain that one??  How did you make the cuts on it??  I am guessing in direct sequence 1-4. did you cut all the way through?? The inlay material is what and how did you come by it?? What did you make the cuts with?? Do you use a jig?? What do you use to glue blank??  Do you have any better shots of the blank or pen?? This would be a good way to keep discussion going with actual photo.



Some of the best ideas I've had I got from other people.  If you have a method that works, I'm all ears.  No need to try and figure something out if someone already knows how to do it.  I'm a relative newbie here so I missed your point. I have only done 8 or 10 of these while trying to learn how to do it. I'm trying to get to the quality you have. I don't think I've ever sold a pen with a knot cuz they just didn't look good enough for me although I've given a few away.

John you may not remember _*this thread *_but it was you that gave me the feedback I needed while trying to figure it out. I notice that even then I had the 3 under 1 over thing going.  There are pictures of the jig I use which is the jig you showed me how to build.





I cut the kerfs in order 1-2-3-4. 
All of mine have been cut using the "not cut all the way through" method.
Inlay is cocbolo and aluminum sandwich.
The avatar was cut with a table saw jig.  I have a bandsaw jig for thinner kerf and lines. The avatar was an experiment using a segmented blank with a knot with aluminum.* Hoping you can tell me how I always end up with 3 lines under and one line over*
I use epoxy on metal and acrylic inserts and titebond on wooden inserts. Can't even begin to tell you how many blanks I blew up figuring that out.


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## jttheclockman (Jun 4, 2020)

Andy my memory is not what it use to be but i just went back and read that. At least I am consistent with what I say It sounds like harping but sometimes repeating things just is a method to get across the message. You ask about the 3 0ver 1 under. Have to say this I never did a blank where you number the blank in sequential order so you have me at a disadvantage. I never really payed attention to others knots when they criss cross like that. All I knew was they did go over and under. It maybe the natural thing when you do number like that. That requires more investigating. Maybe someone else can jump in on that. To sum that up if you want consistency then number the blank as I do and many others do and that is opposite sides.  This ghosting you talk about is due to the infill not matching the slot. That is glue lines.  Again you need a consistent thickness piece or else there will be gaps. I wish there a way to show you what happens when you clamp the blank end to end. This is where many knots fail. When you clamp blank end to end, if that infill material is not dead on perfect thickness to slot then the blank will bow. You take this part away when you cut all the way through but when you do not you leave an anchor point or pivot point. Take a look at blank after you cut filled and glued. Now you go to sand excess off. You want to take only excess infill material off and not sand main blank. Then lay blank on flat surface. If it is bowed just slightly then when you do this 4 times it throws the inlay material alignment off because you are not cutting on the same angle each and every time. Hope this makes sense. As I mentioned I have learned not to clamp blank end to end when not cutting all the way through the blank. I do put more effort into making inlay material more exact to avoid voids. It has worked well for me. Again the quality of the cuts determine if there are minor imperfections because the smoother the cuts the better the or less of a glue line you will see. That is why I am not a fan of a bandsaw to do these especially if you are making multiple cuts to widen kerf. If you are doing a thin knot then one cut with blade on bandsaw works very well. Many examples on this forum. This is the knot I am working on now and I used the exact methods as I am telling you. But what I did was mix some white epoxy dye in the epoxy glue when I glued in the infill material. Now I had to cut the orange strips from a orange pen blank to make up the sandwich and I did that on my tablesaw. No drum sander needed. I did lightly sand the blade marks off using the flat glass method I described. I used same epoxy to glue white strips. Now I did have to just lightly sand the finished material some because with the epoxy it did make the material a tad thicker than the slot but again no huge problem and no drum sander needed.


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## jttheclockman (Jun 4, 2020)

Andy if there is specific questions throw them out maybe we can help. I will also say again and I know this sounds like a broken record but do not use the blank to find centers of the knot and that is why many knots look off. If you took a little too much off one side on the blank when sanding excess infill material you now threw that knot off center of the blank and when you go to do the diagonal markings on the end you are automatically drill the knot off center. I round the blank down before I drill. Then use a collet chuck. But I find center of knot first and set those marks between centers on my lathe to round blank down. Again if any of this does not make sense I will try a different approach to explain. Anyone else want to jump in here with their methods is welcome too. Maybe we come up with tried and true methods to make the Celtic Knot.


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## jttheclockman (Jun 4, 2020)

Was thinking about number sequence. Not sure what it would do if anything but number the blank 1-2-4-3 but still cut in order. If i had some time I would try these and document it but have a few blanks I want to get done. Need to get back to my original plan for the year.


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## ramaroodle (Jun 4, 2020)

jttheclockman said:


> Andy if there is specific questions throw them out maybe we can help. Anyone else want to jump in here with their methods is welcome too. Maybe we come up with tried and true methods to make the Celtic Knot.



Specifically, what I think Mal and I are trying to figure out is how @duderubble got 4 unders and 4 overs. Seems like doing opposite sides might be the key to that.  Intentional or not it is a very esthetically appealing look that I'd like to achieve and consistently duplicate.  I haven't had an issue with the knots being off-center.  I need to decide which is easier, sizing the insert to fit the kerf or cutting all the way through so that isn't an issue.  JT, your comment about not clamping the ends makes sense.  Your blank in the above picture was obviously made with the "not cut through" method and has the crisp lines with no gaps that @duderubble achieved.  Looking at that blank, on the side that's facing up it appears that the diagonal lines would end up under the horizontal lines.  _* I'd love to see how the above-pictured blank looks when it's turned. *_ You and I are saying the same thing about glue lines (gaps) being caused by the blank bowing.  I think I can fix that by making sure the inserts are an exact fit and, like you suggested, not clamp the ends.  I'll also try the 1-2-4-3 idea.  What do you mean by "but still cut in order"?

@duderubble, again, I was very impressed with your results as a first try so I was trying to take elements from various techniques and combine them to get a better result in the end. I know, as the expression goes, "I am trying to pick the fly s**t from the pepper" but I feel like I'm zeroing in on a good overall technique.


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## KenB259 (Jun 4, 2020)

ramaroodle said:


> Specifically, what I think Mal and I are trying to figure out is how @duderubble got 4 unders and 4 overs. Seems like doing opposite sides might be the key to that. Intentional or not it is a very esthetically appealing look that I'd like to achieve and consistently duplicate. I haven't had an issue with the knots being off-center. I need to decide which is easier, sizing the insert to fit the kerf or cutting all the way through so that isn't an issue. JT, your comment about not clamping the ends makes sense. Your blank in the above picture was obviously made with the "not cut through" method and has the crisp lines with no gaps that @duderubble achieved. Looking at that blank, on the side that's facing up it appears that the diagonal lines would end up under the horizontal lines. _* I'd love to see how the above-pictured blank looks when it's turned. *_ You and I are saying the same thing about glue lines (gaps) being caused by the blank bowing. I think I can fix that by making sure the inserts are an exact fit and, like you suggested, not clamp the ends. I'll also try the 1-2-4-3 idea. What do you mean by "but still cut in order"?
> 
> @duderubble, again, I was very impressed with your results as a first try so I was trying to take elements from various techniques and combine them to get a better result in the end. I know, as the expression goes, "I am trying to pick the fly s**t from the pepper" but I feel like I'm zeroing in on a good overall technique.



Just one quick comment what you said about cutting all the way through so the size of the infill doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter whether you cut the blank partially through or all the way through, the infill must perfectly match the blade kerf in either method. Here’s a couple of mine I’ve shown here before. Cuts 1 and 2 opposite of each other and 3 and 4 opposite. View attachment 240217
It appears I can’t upload the picture, oh well [emoji17] 

Sent from my iPad using Penturners.org mobile app


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## jttheclockman (Jun 4, 2020)

Andy I quickly went in the shop to take a photo of both sides to that black and aluminum pen which I still own so able to do it. Now I did not clean dust off or focus very well because I just held the camera instead of getting tripod. So sorry for the fuzzy photos but my point was to show the layout of the loops. I do all my knots the same way with 1 and 2 opposite each other as well as 3 and 4 opposite each other. So this is the look I think you are after.


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## magpens (Jun 4, 2020)

@KenB259

Could you give reasons, please, Ken. - reasons why "the infill must perfectly match the blade kerf ".

Also, your pictures are not accessible to me. . I am being told that I do not have permission to view. . Are they on a protected site ?


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## KenB259 (Jun 4, 2020)

magpens said:


> @KenB259
> 
> Could you give reasons, please, Ken. - reasons why "the infill must perfectly match the blade kerf ".
> 
> Also, your pictures are not accessible to me. . I am being told that I do not have permission to view. . Are they on a protected site ?



The center of the knot must be in the same position for each cut. If you don’t fill the cut with exact match to the kerf, you will be moving that center. I’ll try attaching the picture again. 





Sent from my iPad using Penturners.org mobile app


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## jttheclockman (Jun 4, 2020)

Ken I too would like to know if you have tried using different thickness infill with the same size blade. I have not done that and would be interested.

This is getting to the point I may just drop all my projects and run some tests for all these scenarios.

Ken photos are showing here now. Did you cut all the way through the blank when you did these and if so did you match the thickness to the blade kerf and what saw did you use??

One more question, I see one pen has 4 loops over and one pen has 4 loops under. How did you accomplish that??  What was your sequence of cutting to make different??


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## KenB259 (Jun 4, 2020)

jttheclockman said:


> Ken I too would like to know if you have tried using different thickness infill with the same size blade. I have not done that and would be interested.
> 
> This is getting to the point I may just drop all my projects and run some tests for all these scenarios.
> 
> ...



Haven’t tried that but I’m pretty sure that wouldn’t work, you would be lengthening the blank with each cut. These were cut partially through. These were cut with 1 and 2 opposite and 3 and 4 opposite. If you use this sequence, opposing sides will match. 2 will be over and 2 will be under. These were cut in my tablesaw and the kerf was matched. My saw kerf is .102. I like my infill to be .100. 



Sent from my iPad using Penturners.org mobile app


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## jttheclockman (Jun 4, 2020)

KenB259 said:


> Haven’t tried that but I’m pretty sure that wouldn’t work, you would be lengthening the blank with each cut. These were cut partially through. These were cut with 1 and 2 opposite and 3 and 4 opposite. If you use this sequence, opposing sides will match. 2 will be over and 2 will be under. These were cut in my tablesaw and the kerf was matched. My saw kerf is .102. I like my infill to be .100.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Penturners.org mobile app


Can you explain that again??  I did not follow the over under.

Can you turn the pen 180 degrees and show the opposite side??  They should match the front side.

What I am getting at is the bands that make up the X in the center, the pen on the right the bands are over and the pen on the left they are under.


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## magpens (Jun 4, 2020)

Thank you, @KenB259 . . Pic now helps. . Those 2 pens each have the symmetry I like ... didn't notice that last time you showed.

Your mention of keeping the center of the knot at the same position for each cut would require matching inset thickness to saw kerf.

Maintaining the knot center position could be the key concept . . Got some thinking to do now.


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## KenB259 (Jun 4, 2020)

jttheclockman said:


> Can you explain that again??  I did not follow the over under.


I think I cut the same as you do. I make my fist cut glue in the infill, rotate the blank 180 degrees for my second cut, glue in that infill. Make the third cut,glue in infill, rotate 180 degrees for the final cut. Look at your pen, rotate it 90 degrees, I bet one side is under and one side will be over.


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## KenB259 (Jun 4, 2020)

magpens said:


> Thank you, @KenB259 . . Pic now helps.
> 
> Your mention of keeping the center of the knot at the same position for each cut would require matching inset thickness to saw kerf.


That’s exactly why infill must match kerf.


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## jttheclockman (Jun 4, 2020)

KenB259 said:


> I think I cut the same as you do. I make my fist cut glue in the infill, rotate the blank 180 degrees for my second cut, glue in that infill. Make the third cut,glue in infill, rotate 180 degrees for the final cut. Look at your pen, rotate it 90 degrees, I bet one side is under and one side will be over.


No look at the last post in first page and I show both sides of my black and silver pen and both sides are over. I always do 1 and 2 opposite and 3 and 4 opposite and cut in order.


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## ramaroodle (Jun 4, 2020)

Excellent.  So you go around the blank & number the first side 1 then the next side 3 then 2 then four then go back and cut 1-2-3-4 in that order?


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## jttheclockman (Jun 4, 2020)

ramaroodle said:


> Excellent.  So you number the sides 1,3,2,4 then cut 1 then 2 then 3 then 4??


That is how I do it.


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## jttheclockman (Jun 4, 2020)

I am wondering now if you number 1-4-2-3 as opposed to 1-3-2-4 turning the blank counterclockwise when numbering will give you weather the bands are over or under. My goodness that would be another test blank. I may start prepping some of this material tomorrow and then cut a few of these and just use CA glue to make this go faster. My curiosity is piqued.


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## KenB259 (Jun 4, 2020)

jttheclockman said:


> No look at the last post in first page and I show both sides of my black and silver pen and both sides are over. I always do 1 and 2 opposite and 3 and 4 opposite and cut in order.


But look at the side opposite the clip, so turn your pen so you can’t see the clip and I bet it will be under.


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## KenB259 (Jun 4, 2020)

jttheclockman said:


> I am wondering now if you number 1-4-2-3 as opposed to 1-3-2-4 will give you weather the bands are over or under. My goodness that would be another test blank. I may start prepping some of this material tomorrow and then cut a few of these and just use CA glue to make this go faster. My curiosity is piqued.


I’m thinking it doesn’t matter as long as 1 and 2 is opposing sides. As 3 and 4 will be.


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## KenB259 (Jun 4, 2020)

ramaroodle said:


> Excellent.  So you number the sides 1,3,2,4 then cut 1 then flip twice and cut # 2 then 3 then 4??


That’s how I do it


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## ramaroodle (Jun 4, 2020)

KenB259 said:


> That’s exactly why infill must match kerf.


If you cut all the way through then there is no kerf per se right?  As long as all of the infills are the same size it shouldn't matter should it?


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## ramaroodle (Jun 4, 2020)

KenB259 said:


> I’m thinking it doesn’t matter as long as 1 and 2 is opposing sides. As 3 and 4 will be.


Makes sense.  JT, can't wait to see your test results.


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## magpens (Jun 4, 2020)

@KenB259 

Numbering the sides 1-3-2-4, or alternatively, 1-4-2-3 ..... are you saying these will give the same result for the "over-under" ?


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## KenB259 (Jun 4, 2020)

ramaroodle said:


> If you cut all the way through then there is no kerf per se right?  As long as all of the infills are the same size it shouldn't matter should it?


Yes it does matter, infill must still match the width of the saw blade. I think the best thing to do is glue one up with thicker infill than you blade and turn it. You’ll see it won’t turn out. I’d use scrap wood, because you’ll be throwing it away.


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## KenB259 (Jun 4, 2020)

magpens said:


> @KenB259
> 
> Numbering the sides 1-3-2-4, or alternatively, 1-4-2-3 ..... are you saying these will give the same result for the "over-under" ?


Yes 2 opposing sides will be over and the other 2 will be over.


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## ramaroodle (Jun 4, 2020)

KenB259 said:


> Yes it does matter, infill must still match the width of the saw blade. I think the best thing to do is glue one up with thicker infill than you blade and turn it. You’ll see it won’t turn out. I’d use scrap wood, because you’ll be throwing it away.


Understood.  It just doesn't register in my brain as the kerf then becomes the thickness of the infill rather than the blade but nobody ever said I was the sharpest blade in the shop.  But....I think we're fast approaching the best technique!



KenB259 said:


> Yes 2 opposing sides will be over and the other 2 will be over.


By Joe!  I think we've got it!


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## ramaroodle (Jun 4, 2020)

KenB259 said:


> Yes it does matter, infill must still match the width of the saw blade. I think the best thing to do is glue one up with thicker infill than you blade and turn it. You’ll see it won’t turn out. I’d use scrap wood, because you’ll be throwing it away.


Wait.  Now I get it!  Yes!  Makes sense as the amount of material you remove must be the same for each cut!!


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## jttheclockman (Jun 4, 2020)

OK I just went to shop to snap a couple photos and yes Ken is correct. If you rotate the blank 90 degrees then the 2 opposite knots will be under and the other are over. So you can choose whatever you like. But the thing we established is if you number the blank in opposite sequence 1opposite 2 and 3 opposite 4 then you wind up with all bands the same weather over or under


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## KenB259 (Jun 4, 2020)

ramaroodle said:


> Understood.  It just doesn't register in my brain as the kerf then becomes the thickness of the infill rather than the blade but nobody ever said I was the sharpest blade in the shop.  But....I think we're fast approaching the best technique!
> 
> 
> By Joe!  I think we've got it!


We are getting there. Good Celtic knots require these things. 

1 , blank must be perfectly square, ends must be square too, at least the end you are locating off, next to stop

2 , infill must match kerf

3 center hole must be drilled exactly on center


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## jttheclockman (Jun 4, 2020)

So all we are left with is now the cutting all the way apart and using a different thickness infill and see what happens. If no on tries this then maybe I will give it a shot. The only time I cut all the way through was when I did the red and yellow sierras and I can not remember if I matched saw kerf material or not. I do not have those pens any more so would have to make new ones to test.


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## jttheclockman (Jun 4, 2020)

KenB259 said:


> We are getting there. Good Celtic knots require these things.
> 
> 1 , blank must be perfectly square, ends must be square too, at least the end you are locating off, next to stop
> 
> ...


Yes we agree there and I have mentioned this a few times. Must drill center of knot and not the blank.

And if you number the blank in sequential order 1-2-3-4 and cut that way you end up with a knot that looks like Andy's avatar and the over under is different. I guess it is a matter of choice what looks better to you.


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## KenB259 (Jun 4, 2020)

jttheclockman said:


> So all we are left with is now the cutting all the way apart and using a different thickness infill and see what happens. If no on tries this then maybe I will give it a shot. The only time I cut all the way through was when I did the red and yellow sierras and I can not remember if I matched saw kerf material or not. I do not have those pens any more so would have to make new ones to test.


Interesting to actually see what this will look like, but I’d put my money on it that you’ll get a lopsided knot.


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## ramaroodle (Jun 4, 2020)

The only thing I'd want to perfect is the small gaps but only an OCD pen geek would see that!






jttheclockman said:


> So all we are left with is now the cutting all the way apart and using a different thickness infill and see what happens. If no on tries this then maybe I will give it a shot. The only time I cut all the way through was when I did the red and yellow sierras and I can not remember if I matched saw kerf material or not. I do not have those pens any more so would have to make new ones to test.


I think different thickness infills would screw it up.

This really has been a fun exchange.  Gotta go try this but I'm working thru Sunday


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## magpens (Jun 4, 2020)

Things are starting to gel !!

Thanks to all participants in this discussion, .... and also to those that asked the questions at various points along the way.

We are writing a new chapter in the "Segmenting" book !!


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## KenB259 (Jun 4, 2020)

jttheclockman said:


> So all we are left with is now the cutting all the way apart and using a different thickness infill and see what happens. If no on tries this then maybe I will give it a shot. The only time I cut all the way through was when I did the red and yellow sierras and I can not remember if I matched saw kerf material or not. I do not have those pens any more so would have to make new ones to test.


I made a couple like that, I sold them both though. Funny, I thought they would sell as a pair, but they sold separately. I’m going to make two more sets of those for wedding gifts.


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## jttheclockman (Jun 4, 2020)

ramaroodle said:


> The only thing I'd want to perfect is the small gaps but only an OCD pen geek would see that!
> View attachment 240240
> 
> 
> ...


Can not be done and thus the coloring of the epoxy. They look worse in photo but if you saw with naked eye you would not see it.

I will say this again clamp the ends and see what happens to the knot. Make that infill too tight and you starve the joint and push the sides out. I wish you luck if you can do it.


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## KenB259 (Jun 4, 2020)

ramaroodle said:


> The only thing I'd want to perfect is the small gaps but only an OCD pen geek would see that!
> View attachment 240240
> 
> 
> ...


I’m a pen geek, and it looks fine to me


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## ramaroodle (Jun 4, 2020)

jttheclockman said:


> So you can choose whatever you like. But the thing we established is if you number the blank in opposite sequence 1opposite 2 and 3 opposite 4 then you wind up with all bands the same weather over or under



Yep.  I think we got it!


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## ramaroodle (Jun 4, 2020)

jttheclockman said:


> Can not be done and thus the coloring of the epoxy. They look worse in photo but if you saw with naked eye you would not see it.


Ah!  The final element.  The coloring of the epoxy, however, notice how the gaps are all on the same side of the line implying that it is a minor technique adjustment. Regardless, it's still stunning JT. What metal are you using, aluminum? And how thick?

But if you look at Ken's beauties there are no gaps.


KenB259 said:


> View attachment 240236
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Penturners.org mobile app


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## jttheclockman (Jun 4, 2020)

ramaroodle said:


> Ah!  The final element.  The coloring of the epoxy! But if you look at Ken's beauties there are no gaps.


wood my friend wood will compress some

Did you blow them up too??


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## ramaroodle (Jun 4, 2020)

magpens said:


> Things are starting to gel !!
> 
> Thanks to all participants in this discussion, .... and also to those that asked the questions at various points along the way.
> 
> We are writing a new chapter in the "Segmenting" book !!


+100


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## ramaroodle (Jun 4, 2020)

jttheclockman said:


> wood my friend wood will compress some
> 
> Did you blow them up too??


You're right.  As I said, they're stunning. Thanks for your patience and help.


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## jttheclockman (Jun 4, 2020)

Did not see your question Andy. Yes it is aluminum and is 1/16" to match the kerf of my tablesaw blade which is 1/16" Now I sanded the metal to give some teeth and that is all. No clamping on this either. I do not believe in that. Just my thing. You do as you see fit. 

We are answering all the knot questions for sure.


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## ramaroodle (Jun 5, 2020)

jttheclockman said:


> Did not see your question Andy. Yes it is aluminum and is 1/16" to match the kerf of my tablesaw blade which is 1/16" Now I sanded the metal to give some teeth and that is all. No clamping on this either. I do not believe in that. Just my thing. You do as you see fit.
> 
> We are answering all the knot questions for sure.



OK Here's what I'm gonna do...


KenB259 said:


> 1 , blank must be perfectly square, ends must be square too, at least the end you are locating off, next to stop
> 2 , infill must match kerf
> 3 center hole must be drilled exactly on center





jttheclockman said:


> Yes we agree there and I have mentioned this a few times. Must drill center of knot and not the blank.
> 
> And if you number the blank in sequential order 1-2-3-4 and cut that way you end up with a knot that looks like Andy's avatar and the over under is different. I guess it is a matter of choice what looks better to you.


To me there's no question that mine is not the most esthetic as it's unbalanced.

4. "Alternate" the blanks 1-3-2-4  then cut in numerical order to achieve the over-under
5. Keep doing the "don't cut all the way through" method then maybe try cutting all the way through but whatever I do the insert has to be _*EXACTLY*_ the same width as the kerf to avoid misalignment and glue line gaps and so clamps aren't needed which distorts the blank when using the "don't cut" method.
6. use colored epoxy
7. I need to find a thin kerf blade with a flat top.


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## jttheclockman (Jun 5, 2020)

No need for flat top doing these. You turn away any cuts. Now if you can get your infill material close to exact size you can get away with clamping and have no gaps at all but need to be darn near dead on. If you are that good then clamp away. I just do not do it. As I said wood is different than metals and acrylic. Remember too we had this conversation before and recently here too that wood moves as well as metal and acrylic. Heck this black and silver blank I have been showing has the aluminum raised just a tad over the years that I made it. I may throw it back on the lathe and respin it and polish it again. It was baby's bottom smoothe when I first did it. But proof that even plastics move. So these segment pens we make especially with all the variety of woods used may not look and feel the same over time. Just a warning for those with OCD.


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## jttheclockman (Jun 5, 2020)

ramaroodle said:


> If you cut all the way through then there is no kerf per se right?  As long as all of the infills are the same size it shouldn't matter should it?


OK I did a quick mock up and it is still drying so will post photos later in the day but to this point, Ken is correct again. Having only done about 5 or 6 knots in my pen turning career and I usually follow the no cut through rule, I was not sure about this statement. Nothing like trying the experiment yourself. The kerf infill material must match the kerf of the blade. No matter if you cut partial way or all the way through. That now has been established.  What happens and I saw on the second cut right away, is that the ribbon or infill material do not line up when joined back together. It is not that the knot is off center it just not there. When I post photo you will see exactly what I mean and I also may even turn it round to see the design. Who knows maybe it would be a new design. I will also show a photo of my glue up set up and a little tip that will help if doing any segmenting work where clamping needs to be done. That will be my wrap up on this topic. Learned a few things and hopefully added a few things that may help. Been a long time since we had an exercise like this here. I did this on the UK site a few years ago when I challenged them to figure out the changing color in the knot like I shown in the red and yellow sierra. That struck quite a good conversation and experimenting. The groans after the secret was revealed were heard across the pond. Anyway till later happy turning.


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## ramaroodle (Jun 5, 2020)

In Ken we trust!

_*@jththeclockman*_ I'd still like to see that green blank you posted on the first page after you turn it.  That was an interesting looking little gem with "crispy" lines. Gonna turn a few knots this weekend just to burn the process into my gray matter.


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## jttheclockman (Jun 5, 2020)

ramaroodle said:


> In Ken we trust!
> 
> _*@jththeclockman*_ I'd still like to see that green blank you posted on the first page after you turn it.  That was an interesting looking little gem with "crispy" lines. Gonna turn a few knots this weekend just to burn the process into my gray matter.


Andy I am working on the cap for the pen so when I get complete I will show it.

Now to sum up my input into this thread I will show the photos of the blank I made up using the cut all the way through and using an infill other than size of blade. I used a tablesaw to cut blank with a 3/32" blade. The blank is maple and the infill is 1/4" walnut. I show in first photo my system of clamping these type blanks with the use of an aluminum angle to keep 2 sides as straight as possible. The tip I wanted to include was to make this work you need to cut the end of infill the same angle as the blank. In this case I cut this so called knot using a 60 degree sled in that I wanted to stretch it out knowing the thick infill will take up alot of the space. As it turns out Ken was right in that the infill still needs to match the kerf of the blade. Now we have proof and it is documented here forever. This knot turned out to be nothing but a mess and no good use at all. I first show various sides of blank glued up and right away you see the misalignment when glued back together. Now I have no capabilities to make videos so I turned the blank down to see it in its round form and it is as bad. I show various sides while on the lathe. I will keep the photos in thumbnail size so as to not overwhelm the thread. But you get the jist.

To sum this up it was fun to banter about the long standing segmented Celtic Knot. I believe all info ever needed to make these is now in this thread so future generations can be linked to it. As I said earlier I learned a few things and hopefully added a few details too. Have done about 5 or 6 over time I will stick to the cut partially way through method but now know when I need to cut all the way through what needs to be done. All those who want to try, have fun and enjoy the journey. Just another segmented blank. If I can be of help just ring. Happy turning and be safe.


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## KenB259 (Jun 5, 2020)

Thanks John for giving us the visuals. I enjoyed the conversation as well and I’m glad we got it all hammered out. 


Sent from my iPad using Penturners.org mobile app


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## ramaroodle (Jun 6, 2020)

Not to beat a dead forum but JT proved Ken's other truth.  Even though the knot is totally f**ked it still has the over-under!  

It is the PERFECT knot for this conversation.

-over under
-no glue lines
-no gaps
-insert has got to be exactly the same as the kerf regardless of the cut method you use


 



It's a work of art!

Which all comes full circle and definitely answers the question in @duderubble's original post.....


duderubble said:


> Anyone got a tutorial on making the centers line up. I think I drilled pretty centered. I'm thinking maybe the veneer sandwich needs to match the saw kerf exactly or maybe something else. It looks cool if you don't look too close.
> 
> Plain walnut with maple and walnut veneer on an antique brass cigar.


I need to make a youtube video on how to make a perfect Celtic knot on a pen.

Our work here is done!


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## KenB259 (Jun 6, 2020)

I have an idea about all this..... stay tuned. 


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## jttheclockman (Jun 6, 2020)

I do not have capabilities or else I would have done something too. This really is not rocket science. If you can repeat your cuts accurately you can make as many knots in a row as your blank will allow. Just keep adding spacers. I do that when I make my scallops. The 4 over and 4 under has been proven here that the 1-opposite 2 will give that effect. Done. Proven that sequential numbers 1-2-3-4 will give an odd band weather over or under depends on how you turn the finished blank. Done. Proven here that exact thickness of infill is a must for either cutting the blank partial or cutting all the way through. Done. Avoiding glue gaps can be because the infill or the slots are not flat and even. Now I will point this out here because this is for the OCD people. I want to stress this because it is important. Unless you are cutting all the way through the blank and clamping the blank every which way then there will never be those gaps. But if you are cutting partially through the possibility arises for gaps because of the following:: The infill material is not pure exact flat (good luck with that one) the cut slots have a jagged surface such as when using a bandsaw (correctable) or there is runout in arbor or blade when cutting the slots, (non correctable easily) This last one people overlook. You can do everything right but if you have runout in arbor or blade itself it will not cut a straight slot and thus small gaps may appear. Now if using wood or paper or things of that nature it is easier to make up for gaps because those materials will give some when pushing in slots. They will compress. But you must be careful of not allowing for glue because you can starve the glue joints. It is a fine line. Now here is where I differ with most folks that make these and that is clamping the ends to crush that center knot and avoid gaps. You run the risk of bowing the blank. The next time you do this lay the blank on a flat board and check to see if the blank lays flat as it did in normal state. If it is bowed you now introduced a misalignment in your next cut and multiply that by 4 and who knows what the knot looks like. Now there are those like Ken who have mastered his tools and precision seems to be his thing so more power to him. I take this out of my equation by not clamping the ends and make up for any imperfections with colored epoxy. It has served me well this far. If using metals and acrylics for infill then compression is out of the question and the exact material thickness becomes even more critical but should be easier to control. 

Other than that lets see those Celtic Knots. Mix it up some and use various materials or layers. Spectraply is a good choice of material.


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## KenB259 (Jun 6, 2020)

What I wanted to try didn’t work out. My in fill was .204 thick. So I thought if I moved my cut by .102 that it would work out. It did not. Going forward , I will just match my kerf, like I always have. 


Sent from my iPhone using Penturners.org mobile app


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## eteska (Jul 1, 2020)

Amazing pointers for someone who has just made his first few knots and looking to improve. First two pens from before reading this thread and third pen and bottle opener after having reading and trying to follow the listed procedures. 








Many improvements but plenty of room for growth. 



Sent from my iPhone using Penturners.org mobile app


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## Dieseldoc (Jul 1, 2020)

Good start, now you can try more segmenting.


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## Dieseldoc (Jul 1, 2020)

KenB259 said:


> What I wanted to try didn’t work out. My in fill was .204 thick. So I thought if I moved my cut by .102 that it would work out. It did not. Going forward , I will just match my kerf, like I always have.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Penturners.org mobile app


KEN : check you PM


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## Richard92 (Jul 1, 2020)

jttheclockman said:


> Andy I am working on the cap for the pen so when I get complete I will show it.
> 
> Now to sum up my input into this thread I will show the photos of the blank I made up using the cut all the way through and using an infill other than size of blade. I used a tablesaw to cut blank with a 3/32" blade. The blank is maple and the infill is 1/4" walnut. I show in first photo my system of clamping these type blanks with the use of an aluminum angle to keep 2 sides as straight as possible. The tip I wanted to include was to make this work you need to cut the end of infill the same angle as the blank. In this case I cut this so called knot using a 60 degree sled in that I wanted to stretch it out knowing the thick infill will take up alot of the space. As it turns out Ken was right in that the infill still needs to match the kerf of the blade. Now we have proof and it is documented here forever. This knot turned out to be nothing but a mess and no good use at all. I first show various sides of blank glued up and right away you see the misalignment when glued back together. Now I have no capabilities to make videos so I turned the blank down to see it in its round form and it is as bad. I show various sides while on the lathe. I will keep the photos in thumbnail size so as to not overwhelm the thread. But you get the jist.
> 
> To sum this up it was fun to banter about the long standing segmented Celtic Knot. I believe all info ever needed to make these is now in this thread so future generations can be linked to it. As I said earlier I learned a few things and hopefully added a few details too. Have done about 5 or 6 over time I will stick to the cut partially way through method but now know when I need to cut all the way through what needs to be done. All those who want to try, have fun and enjoy the journey. Just another segmented blank. If I can be of help just ring. Happy turning and be safe.


This as been a really great thread to follow have enjoyed ready your input. Hope to see your video when it's done.
Thanks


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## KenB259 (Jul 1, 2020)

eteska said:


> Amazing pointers for someone who has just made his first few knots and looking to improve. First two pens from before reading this thread and third pen and bottle opener after having reading and trying to follow the listed procedures. View attachment 241551View attachment 241552View attachment 241553View attachment 241554
> Many improvements but plenty of room for growth.
> 
> 
> ...



Your latest results are great, much improvement there. 


Sent from my iPhone using Penturners.org mobile app


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## jttheclockman (Jul 1, 2020)

Eric, that is quite an improvement. Glad that the members here were able to put together at least a thread that has alot of info about the famous Celtic Knot. Now there is much more that can be added but this gets those who want to try or just improve on their accuracy of doing them, down the right path. Hopefully when the topic comes up there will be those that link this thread. Glad to have been a small part in the conversation here. Continued success with the segmenting. But beware it can become addictive.


----------

