# A Penmakers Challenge Stage 2



## ldb2000

This is Stage 2 of the Penmakers Challenge . On the surface not much has changed from stage 1 but there are a few differences . In this one I have added a new finial which is pressed into the upper tube . A tenon was needed and it had to be sized accurately to be press fit , not glued into the tube and hold the clip tight . You can glue it in place but try to make a press fit first , it's good practice for making tenons . 
The other difference is that the centerband is now fitted to a tenon on the upper barrel . This is also optional but advised , the next stage will require a tenon here for strength . There won't be a tube to support the glue joints so the tenon will act as support .
I made this pen from PR but you can use wood or whatever you would like . Again no saws were used to make this pen and this time I MEAN no saws were used ... unless they use a saw to make the liquid resin :biggrin: All cuts were made by using a parting tool on the lathe .

Sorry for getting this one started so late but the kids used up all the batteries so I had to wait until the rechargeable were charged for my camera .

Ok , let's see some pens (done by the rules , I hope)


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## RAdams

Nice! The tenons do add some interesting twists! This will be fun to play with!!


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## skiprat

I hope you don't mind me adding this Butch, but here's a tip that might be useful to some. There have been some really beautiful pens so far and I'd hate to see someone spoil one.

If you unfortunately need to glue in your finial, then DONT put the glue on the finial tenon. Put a little inside the tube instead. If you put it on the tenon then it will gather up as you press it in an make a mess around your clip. If you use CA, it will probably ruin the plating.:wink:


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## ldb2000

Thank you Skip , that's a very good tip . Skiprat is right , since the finial is pressed in after the finish is done and it would be a shame to ruin a nice pen by a simple mistake , always put the glue in the tube instead of the finial and you really shouldn't use CA around any plated parts . The out gassing from the CA can very quickly ruin the plating , if you have to glue in the finial use epoxy instead or if the fit is tight but just needs a little help any color Loctite is the best thing to use .
But I'm sure that none of you will need to glue in the finial .... right?


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## RAdams

Question... Did you tenon all three CB pieces? or segment the first two, and tenon just the outer thickest band?


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## soligen

I'll certainly go for a press fit, but seeing as I'll be using wood, and wood shrinks if iy dries a little, I would sure feel a lot better on the longevity of the pen with a bit of epoxy in there.

Am I worried about nothing here?  I'll go for the press fit, then disassemble and epoxy it back in.


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## DurocShark

No, you're not being over cautious. All materials shrink and expand. Wood does it enough to be worrisome.


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## ldb2000

Ron , yes all three are pieces are on a tenon . The tenon is taking the place of a tube in the next build . Segmenting is not a good idea if there is nothing to support it . remember that wall thickness is quite thin and a butt joint segment will have very little glue area so will break without support . 
Dennis , you are quite right . If you are using acrylic then gluing the finial in is not needed , but if you are using wood there will be a certain amount of movement and glue will avoid the finial coming loose in the future . You could also use thin CA to stabilize the wood so movement would be about the same as acrylic and glue won't be needed . 
Nice catch , I was wondering if someone would catch that one . This is part of designing from scratch . You must try to think of anything that can go wrong and design to avoid the problems . There are other things to design around on this build . Let's see if anyone catches them .


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## Craftdiggity

Cool pen, Butch.  I like the idea of the finial on top, but what is the point of the press fit, other than the skill of getting it to just the right size?  Wouldn't the brass tube cut into the material, especially if it's wood?  

I make a lot of friction fit items, but it's always wood to wood joints, so I'm not worried about getting the size right, but I wouldn't trust a wood press fit to stay forever.  Acrylic either for that matter.  I'll press mine together, but I think I'll put a drizzop of 'poxy up in.


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## DurocShark

Oh, I forgot to say...


@#$%#^#$%&*&^#$&#%$&^@#$ tennons!!!!!


:biggrin::biggrin:


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## RAdams

Cool, that is how i am doing it. I figured that sounded the most difficult, so that is prolly what you did. The last pen had segs... This had to be different! 

I have faced another of the design challenges already. deciding how far to inset the bottom tube. It hasnt become a problem yet, and i dont need any hints, but i can see it being the next challenge for me i think.


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## ldb2000

The CB is still segmented but they are segmented over the tenon . On this build the upper tube is there so the tenon really serves no purpose other then practice for the next build when there wont be a tube for support .


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## soligen

ldb2000 said:


> You could also use thin CA to stabilize the wood so movement would be about the same as acrylic and glue won't be needed .


 
When it comes to anything Structural, I fall into the "Overkill" camp, so I vote for both :biggrin:.

I was going to thin CA the tennon anyway, but for a different reason - I dont have the ideal equipment to do this, so I figure some thin CA will mitigate damage to the tenon when I put it into my drill chuck.

Another gotcha comes to mind with wood, and that is damaging the finial when pressing it in.


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## ldb2000

Chris , if you feel more secure with a bit of glue by all means use it . I did take certain steps to make sure that the finial stays in place without glue . If you use wood the tube will compress the tenon and allow it to loosen over time but if you harden the wood tenon with some thin CA it will not allow the fibers to compress and if you design it right it will stay without glue . The clip will put a strain on the finial and a normal size tenon would eventually work it's way loose . The design takes this into account . 
Again when you are designing your pens look for design flaws that might be a problem in the future , try to come up with solutions to those problems before they happen . If the designers who made the Sierra had looked at their designs better the design flaw would have been avoided . Remember , even with the best designs sometimes there are compromises that must be made so make sure to try and avoid them if you can or at least minimize them as much as you can .


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## ldb2000

Yes Dennis , there is nothing wrong with overkill if you want your pen to last a lifetime . Also yes about damaging the finial when pressing it in . I broke the first one I made when I pressed it in using my normal hand clamp because it wasn't aligned right , I used my lathe tailstock to press in the one that's on there . 
By the way , my finial was made on a mandrel so I didn't have to worry about damaging it with the jaws of a chuck


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## hewunch

Another tip I have found in working with glue and tenons. If you part a small channel in the middle of the tenon the glue seems to not flow out as bad on to the other parts (where you don't want it)


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## ldb2000

Good tip Hans . You could also make a few flutes in the length of the tenon to allow the glue to flow through as you are pressing it in but it is best to put the glue in the tube instead of on the tenon .


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## PenMan1

On the CB, Is it cheating to turn a regular tenon just as with a regular european, then part off the CB segments larger than the tenon and sand to final diminsion with the rest of the upper tube? Also, you didn't mention drill press. Is a DP allowed or is it the same as the first challenge?


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## DurocShark

Man, slicing wood thin on the lathe is WAY easier than with alabaster! I wish there was some use for 3/4" x 3/4" veneer!


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## ldb2000

I turned a 5/16" tenon on the end of the tube then I drilled a 5/16" hole in the tenon stock and parted off the slices , put glue on the tenon and slid the slices on then clamped it all up until dry . Then I turned the barrel to size and finished .
If you can't drill on the lathe the DP is ok but it will make it harder to get perfectly centered and aligned holes .


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## ldb2000

Don , you could always make allot of celtic knots :biggrin:


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## DurocShark

:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:


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## soligen

*No optional stuff*

I already had this pen in the works, so it has none of the "Optional" features. By that I mean the CB is not on a tenon.

The finial is a press fit, with epoxy for peace of mind.  It is a good enough press fit that I didn't need to leave it clamped.

To get the finial fit, I left it a bit big final sized it with sandpaper by hand.  i'm glad I did becasue my drill chuck messed it up. No real option there - I think I dont really have the proper gear to do it right.

The wood is walnut and hickory, and a mystery dark wood slice (cocobolo maybe).  There is aluminium foil in each glue joint.  You can see it between the dark woods, but I it is not visible against the hickory (even in person).

IMO the CB area is a bit too fat, and the finial is a bit off (perhaps due to the hand fitting. But, its the best finish (CA, no BLO) I've done to date.

I intend to do a second pen with the CB tenon and submit it too, but I had this one started and really wanted to give the finial a go today.


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## soligen

Pic didn't attach - trying again


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## ldb2000

It looks good to me . I think the finial makes the pen , it gives it a finished look . If Waterman or MB were to make a wood ballpoint it would look like that . Great job .


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## David Keller

Here's my second round attempt.  This is stabilized Lombardi poplar from AS with alternative ivory bands from EB. The clip finial is actually russian olive because I destroyed the piece of poplar that I had left.  I'm anxious to see how others make their finials because it was easily the hardest part for me.  I did manage a good fit, but added a touch of thick CA to the tube for longevity.
 

I want to say I greatly appreciate this exercise.  I've never done kit modifications until now.  I'm not sure I like the two pens I've created thus far, but the techniques I'm learning will help me in the future.


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## ldb2000

I see nothing wrong with it David . As a matter of fact I think it looks great . the only thing I might have done differently would have been to recess the clip since your stock is larger then the clip ring . To recess the clip you would have to drill a slight counter bore the size of your clip ring in the upper blank and using an xacto knife cut a notch in the edge of the blank for the clip to stick out through . Then when you press your finial on there is no gap at the clip .


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## David Keller

Thanks, Butch.  Do you leave the blank a bit long on the clip end to account for the counter bore or do you just drill away a bit of the tube?  Does it really matter either way?

I definitely agree with you that it would look better with a recessed clip.

Another question...  Does anybody sell a nib that fits a 7mm tube but has more of a cigar size?  I really don't like slim pens.  I actually thought about trying to make my own nib for this one, but I decided to wait for the upcoming installments of the challenge.


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## ldb2000

Yes I would leave the blank a little longer to account for the recess . As far as I know 7mm nibs are all about the same size . Don't tell anyone I said this but the final build will be a kitless pen where the only kit parts will be the transmission and the clip .


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## soligen

The nibs on the euro kits are for 7mm tubes and are a bit thicker.  WIth a rounded finial, this challenge basically turns a slimline into a euro.


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## Mr Vic

Butch...Is this still based on a slimline kit?


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## ldb2000

Yes it is . The next one will be based on a cigar but will be doable with a slimline if you don't have a cigar .

While the Euro is a little bit thicker it's not by very much , it takes a caliper to really see the difference . None of the 7mm nibs are the size of a cigar .


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## DurocShark

Whoops. I'm out of slim nibs and clips so was doing this with a euro nib and clip, slim tubes and transmission (like there's a lot of difference... heh)

Cumaru and walnut... First time with that cumaru stuff. Stinks.


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## soligen

I'm working on rev 2 of my process for finial turning, and had to make some things to turn between centers more effectively.

I made my own pen turning points for the shopsmith. The only live center I own is the Manrel Saver. I made points for both my chuck, and the mandrel saver. The angles arn't precise. I just eye-balled it.

This works OK, but I see a real 60 degree live center in my future. The mandrel saver does not have very good lateral support in this configuration, so a light touch is needed on the tail end.

These are made from a 1/2 inch rod I had in my shop for years - bought for a project I never did. It had a threaded hole in one end for a 1/4 inch bolt (the rod was actually a spare part for an accessory I dont even own)

I epoxied a 1/4 inch bolt in the the rod and cut off the head - instant shaft for the manrel saver. The drive side was easier as it is a 1/2 inch chuck. Cut a 2.5 to 3 inch length of rod to make these.

To cut the point, I chucked up each one and used my hack saw (one of those little ones) held at my eye-balled 60 degree angle about one inch from the end of the rod. Stopping occasionally to let everthing cool. Took a bit becasue the the blade had to remove all the metal from the face of the waste part of the rod. 

Turned out nice. Just wish the manrel saver was more stable.

Pics of the parts, and mounted on my shopsmith.


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## soligen

LOL I just went out and looked at 60 degree live centers.  looks like I went 60 degrees from the wrong axis, so what I really have is 30 degree points (give or take).  Oh well, still works. Maybe one day I'll re-cut the drive side.


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## RAdams

you can get 60 degree centers for cheap. Probably cheaper than the man hours needed to make anything close. I got mine from woodcraft, and only paid $20 for it... Just a thought.


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## RAdams

well here is my round 2 contribution. Black and Interfine green PR with reddish orange PR CB, Finial, and accent. 

I am not very happy with how it came out. the bottom barrel is too small, so the white paint shows through alot mroe making it appear a different color alltogether. The trim piece by the nib was dark on the outside, but light on the inside, so it doesnt really fit in. The finial is a bit too wide, it is not a press fit. The bottom barrel is too small at the CB transition, so it looks funny. The segs are not 100% square. I dont think you can notice with the human eye, but i sure noticed when it was spinning at 3000 R's. 


On the plus side, All the steps were done on the lathe, no saws or other power tools. I did tenon the CB... All three parts of it... I also recessed my first clip! What an easy mod to do for a major impact on appearance! The slot is a little bit too wide, but for a first try, I was pretty happy with it.


Overall, It was a fun build, and i learned a TON, but this particular finished product does not excite me at all.


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## soligen

Ron, I wasnt very happy with my entry either.  I'm going to do a second entry and correct the issues.  I turned a new finial last night using a different method - way better.  but is has a funny color variation.  I think I cut through the CA on the final saning in one area.  I may try to re-finish, or just make another.

On the points, given the very limited options for a shopsmith on the drive side, I had to make something, so I did the tail too since once I figured out a way its pretty easy, and only cost me 18 cents.  If the tail had worked better the transitions would have been super easy - no need to knock out the tail center.  I will definately be getting a live tail center with my next purchase.  It's insidious - so much cool stuff to get!

I also made my hack saw blade parting tool - turned a handle for it too.  Man - super sweet.  Would have made stage 1 MUCH easier.


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## DurocShark

I have never done a recessed clip. Too bad I've already refinished the cap, or I'd be all over trying it.


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## ldb2000

Ron I think it looks ok , warts and all . I wasn't happy with mine either , the white/silver CB bands lost too much color even with painting and I was going to recess the clip but I forgot when I was turning the barrel so I didn't have enough meat in the body to do it .


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## RAdams

Yeah, the more i fiddle with it, the cooler it is i guess. The recessed clip has alot of potential and that is my main happiness with it. I know it isn't perfect, but at least it got me out of settling for the pieces of metal they put in the bag. I won't "redo" it until i dont know when, but i will revisit this exact design again. I really like the potential.


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## ldb2000

As long as you are learning and advancing your skills then you are ahead of the game . These challenges are more about learning how to think about what you are building then the actual building itself .


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## Mr Vic

Butch, Still pondering the best methods to proceed and my brain keeps coming back to a statement you made about the finial.



ldb2000 said:


> By the way , my finial was made on a mandrel so I didn't have to worry about damaging it with the jaws of a chuck


 
If you used a manderal would it not have a hole through it which is where the tenion should be? Or did you use an adjustable manderal like a jam pin chuck? Or don't ask until this stage is over?:wink:


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## Rick_G

The kitchen is going to take longer than I figured on.  Build something 2 days finishing put it up then build another part.

So I took some time while waiting for the finish to dry.  My #2 challenge pen.

Again a small piece of white ash that was around a spot where a large branch went through the board.  The three pieces for the center band were drilled with a 10mm brad point bit and a tenon turned on the cap to match.  Bottom end of the cap is approx. .5 in..  The blue for the center band is a leftover piece of Azurite Gemstone from another pen. Used an old mandrel as a pin chuck to turn the recess in the end of the CB.  The center section of the center band is ash as well.  I thought about using the gemstone for the finial but decided I liked the looks of the ash better.  Built on a chrome streamline kit, the clip sticks out just a bit farther at the top giving a slightly better fit.  Glued the piece of ash for the finial to a piece of 3/4" dowel and chucked it in my beall collet chuck for turning and finishing.  I did glue it in because it want it to be permanent but it was a tight press fit.

Cut my blanks to rough length with the bandsaw and did my drilling on the drill press.  There is just enough play in the tailstock of my drill press to make drilling on it a pain.  

Like the first one this will be shipped along with a letter of support to one of our military personnel.


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## ldb2000

Fantastic pen Rick . Your finish is awesome and that wood is too . To be able to see the chatoyance in the photo it must be amazing in person .


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## ldb2000

Mr Vic said:


> Butch, Still pondering the best methods to proceed and my brain keeps coming back to a statement you made about the finial.
> If you used a manderal would it not have a hole through it which is where the tenion should be? Or did you use an adjustable manderal like a jam pin chuck? Or don't ask until this stage is over?:wink:


 
That is why I said that an adjustable mandrel is required for these builds . That is exactly what I did . I used a mandrel rod in my collet chuck but an adjustable mandrel works the same way . I use it as a jam chuck with a little piece of masking tape to create a jam fit .
Oh by the way I don't use a tube in the blank that I made the finial from but still drill it for a 7 mm tube . That leaves enough room to add the tape to get a tight fit .
I also drilled the 5/16 hole for the slices to fit the tenon on the centerband the same way .


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## DurocShark

I'm doing without an adjustable mandrel. I need to pick one up, though I'd prefer a collet chuck.

It only takes money!


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## Rick_G

Thanks Butch.  It's a little darker in the photo but the chatoyance stands out in person.  I had never thought about putting the CB on a tenon when I did them this way, I had alway just glued them to the end of the blank then drilled and inserted the tube.  This way is more work but it does help increase the skill level which is the whole idea of this challenge.


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## Dalecamino

Is this the disaster dept.? :redface: I was going to try to hide the clip on this one but , didn't cut deep enough AND , part of the end of the wood broke off while sanding . I had too much length on my hacksaw blade parting tool and , didn't cut the tenon straight on the finial . So , the finial doesn't set level . Yes , I had to use glue . Had fun anyway !


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## ldb2000

Rick , putting the CB segments on a tenon this time was just practice . The tenon serves no real purpose here because there is a tube but on the next build there won't be a tube to support the CB segments so there will have to be some other way to support the CB segments . A simple butt joint will not hold up very long if there is no tube , the wall thickness is just too thin to give any surface area for the glue to stick to and the CB will break apart very easily .


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## ldb2000

It looks good anyway Chuck .Don't feel bad about the clip I kinda did the same thing . I turned the blank too thin to recess the clip . I could take it apart and cut the top a little bit to where I have enough meat to recess the clip but then my tenon would have to be shortened and wouldn't hold in as well and would have to be glued in place , so it stays as is .


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## Dalecamino

ldb2000 said:


> It looks good anyway Chuck .Don't feel bad about the clip I kinda did the same thing . I turned the blank too thin to recess the clip . I could take it apart and cut the top a little bit to where I have enough meat to recess the clip but then my tenon would have to be shortened and wouldn't hold in as well and would have to be glued in place , so it stays as is .


 Thanks Butch ! My sentiments exactly ! :biggrin:


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## David M

1st thing No trees was harmed in making this pen....
Ok my 1st pen wasn't a slimline , sorry , oops . I was playing for  the challenge , that was fun .It was a little slow using a parting tool to do the cutting . So this is a slimline .... sorta ... Didn't want to us a new kit when I have some pens that could be salvaged for this so , you know how hard it is to save the parts from a slimline pro gel click pen..... the need ( nib ) and clip is all that was usable and with a cigar part or three ... i did make tenions one at the tip clip end ( had to cut the threads off the top cigar tube and I drilled it out to 1/4 inch / .250 . made a small tenion so the clip wouldnt move after the top was presses in . I was thinking should have checked but .006 oversize ( .256 ) was a tight press . The upper part dont have a tube all the way ( like a cigar ) so I made a tenion with a purple sleeve that is steeped over the lower part where the trans screw into ( didnt i say it has a parker style refill ).so here is some pictures of my slimline pro / was click pen....
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	












The the pen




dont rake me over the coals it not a true slimline twist ... or the tenions are on both ends of the center wher they connect .....
another fun pen to make 
David
http://i637.photobucket.com/albums/uu93/davidspen/DSC01134.jpg


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## ldb2000

David , David , David .... 20 lashes with a wet noodle for not following the rules ..... oh wait .... there really isn't any rules ..... NEVERMIND!! :biggrin:
As long as your having fun and either learning something new or honing your skills then it's alright .
It is a good looking pen though . I like the blank and nice way to recycle .... Save a plastic tree !!! :biggrin:


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## RIPPIN45

*,,*

Butch;  Can't thanks you enough for your challenge, really appreciate your time.  I didn't make the first challenge, 4 children!!  Anyway I did make the second challenge.  I had some alumilite that was absolute junk, but this is not a looks thing for me, just a learning experience.  two pics, one of the parts, the second is the pen.  This took some thinking and am still debating some of the things I did and how I could improve on the techniques.


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## ldb2000

I actually like it Randy . That blank has a cool look to it , like a candy orange flake . I'm not sure if you used white tubes or painted the tubes or blank white but it seems to be showing white under the orange . With a blank like that you should have painted the tubes/blank with an orange or yellow paint , it would have given it a deeper look . You can sometimes get a really wild look by accenting the colors .
Your workmanship on the pen looks great , and the satin kit fits it perfectly . Overall , good job !!!


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## Mr Vic

Great like it is Randy. Now I have to go check the freezer for a Cream Cycle....


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## RIPPIN45

I used white tubes, but like the idea of orange paint better, more depth I am sure.  Alot of nice pens have been "crafted".  Great job to all and the experience will be used in the future.


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## Sylvanite

*My Stage 2 Pen*

Here's my version of the Stage 2 pen.  The centerband segments are on a tenon and the finial is press-fit.  No saws were used to cut the pen parts.

I stuck to maple and blackwood, but made the slices a little thinner and angled the ends.  I also did a recessed clip.






I hope you like it - it was instructive to make.

Regards,
Eric


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## ldb2000

Show off .... :biggrin: ..... and you should , that is absolutly stunning . I think you should be running this thing . That is the best pen shown so far , sorry everyone . I said to best my effort and you did .... by miles !!!


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## mbroberg

Eric,

I hope you don't mind, but I put a picture of your pen in my "Ideas" folder.  By, "Ideas", I mean, "I am going to make a pen like that sometime".  Nice job.


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## ldb2000

Ok , now the speculation begins and please don't tell yet how you did it , wait a couple of days . I have an idea of how you did the angle without a saw . Time to think everyone , there won't be a tut for this one . First correct answer wins a 'Case of Notoriety'


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## mbroberg

ldb2000 said:


> Ok , now the speculation begins and please don't tell yet how you did it , wait a couple of days . I have an idea of how you did the angle without a saw . Time to think everyone , there won't be a tut for this one . First correct answer wins a 'Case of Notoriety'




Just off the top of my head, a belt or disk sander?  Probably need to make a jig with the proper angle to hold the piece.


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## Sylvanite

ldb2000 said:


> Ok , now the speculation begins and please don't tell yet how you did it , wait a couple of days . I have an idea of how you did the angle without a saw . Time to think everyone , there won't be a tut for this one . First correct answer wins a 'Case of Notoriety'



I think a more interesting, and more instructive challenge would be to see how many different ways we can come up with.  I chose a way that seemed straightforward to me, but I'd love to see better ideas.

Regards,
Eric


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## ldb2000

Ok that works , the most inventive way , that can actually be done , so no beavers !!!, wins .


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## David M

angle cut befor drilled , off center then drilled ? nice pen ....


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## Sylvanite

ldb2000 said:


> ... the most inventive way ... no beavers !!!


Darn - I was planning to claim that I gnawed it to shape.

Now I'll just have to say "I whittl'd it" (neither is true, though - I can't draw or cut a straight line without a straightedge, fence, sled, some sort of jig, or computer assistance).

Thanks Butch, for the challenge of a press-fit finial.  It turned out to be integral to the creation of this pen.  I pressed it in, and knocked it out several times along the way.

Regards,
Eric


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## DurocShark

Hurting my wrist last night means I probably won't get this one finished.  

That's ok, I wasn't happy with what I was doing with it anyway.


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## ldb2000

Don't worry Don there's plenty of time get better and if you want to play stage two is active for a week and a half before stage 3 starts and 2 will stay open for at least a week after 3 begins . Take care of yourself first .


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## DurocShark

I think the pleasure of working in the shop will get me in there sooner rather than later. But I have "production" work I need to do too. We'll see...

At least my bus is (just about) sold. I'm trying to talk the wife into a new table saw.

:biggrin:


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## DurocShark

Here's as far as I got.



I'm not a fan of cumaru. Fibrous and boring. At least this piece was.


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## PenMan1

Sylvanite said:


> I think a more interesting, and more instructive challenge would be to see how many different ways we can come up with. I chose a way that seemed straightforward to me, but I'd love to see better ideas.
> 
> Regards,
> Eric


 
Just messing around with the lathe last night, I took a speed square and got the tool rest EXACTLY parrallel to a rounded pen blank. Then I  put a pencil "dot" where I wanted the angle to start, then used a compass, ruler and sharpie marker to make a 45 degree angled line on the tool rest. Then, I lined up my parting knife on the line and the blank. I turned on the lathe and made a 45 degree part. 

I am sure this is NOT how you did it, but this actually worked pretty well and painlessly, 45 degrees was TOO much angle, but I THINK I can make something similar to your pen, which is a BEAUTY, using this method.


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## RAdams

I think it was mounted off center, between centers, then rounded. Then mounted in a chuck, and trued up each end, thenmounted between centers, and re-rounded, then mounted in a chuck again, and drilled, and then the rest is standard issue.


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## Sylvanite

If you cut a conical section (which is what happens when you turn on-axis off-center and part at an angle), then you wind up with a domed surface, not a flat one.

Regards,
Eric


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## soligen

Sylvanite said:


> If you cut a conical section (which is what happens when you turn on-axis off-center and part at an angle), then you wind up with a domed surface, not a flat one.
> 
> Regards,
> Eric


 
Well, if you glue each end to a larger disk/dowel, only off center, then you could get the angle - I might be a little scared to try this.  It would actually give you a side section of a cone, instead of a straight cut, giving you a bit of a rounded profile - would be interesting.  The more off center, then less rounded.

A disk sander seems easiest and most straight forward.


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## DurocShark

Ok, here we go. I took a bunch of Advil and spent a few minutes in the shop:



I'm really not happy with the whole thing, but I hit the challenge points. The CB is over a tenon and all lathe cut. The finial is press fit. The clip is held by the finial (I'll be gluing that though... I don't trust it.)

I also really REALLY need to get some soft jaws for my vise! Look at those teeth marks!


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## RAdams

I am lost now. I dont understand all the axis conical stuff... 


what i mean is this... Take a pen blank. Segment the ends by parting off the appropriate pieces etc. glue it all up to make one solid blank. Then mount it between centers, only each end would be slightly off center in oposite directions. Round the blank. Now the ends are crooked because they were square, but you mounted off center. Now you mount the blank in a collet or similar and true up the ends, wich would give you flat ends that were square with the off center marks on each end. Once the ends and squared up, you re-mount to center on each end, and round it again. Then it is back to the collet. Now you can part off the finial piece, and set it aside for later. Then drill the hole. You now have a blank that is drilled and ready for tubes that is rounded, centered, and has flat angled ends. 

Hope that clears up what i was trying to say... That seems to me would be the most A: involved on the lathe, which leads to B: The funnest way to do it! This is how i would attempt a similar result anyway....


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## soligen

Here it is - my second entry, which I like much better.  And I think its sold!! my first sale!  I just need to figure out a price.

The blank came as part of an unlabeled assertment - I think its Zebrawood - someone please tell be otherwize if this isnt so.  The accent wood is walnut.  I was expecting a bit more contrast between the woods - oh well, the buyer likes it.

I REALLY need to know what a pen like this should sell for.  Would some of you more experienced people please PM me with what you think is fair for this level of work?  Thanks

On to the trials and learning.  First in the "Accidental Learning" department.  I targeted the finial diameter to be the same as the end of the barrel, but I hosed the finial's finish and had to sand it all off and re-finish, which made the finial too small by about .01 inches.  I pressed it in anyway without glue just to see, and discovered it looked just right!  In hind sight, since the pen tapers, and the clip band is in between the upper barrel and the finial, it makes sense it needs to be a tad smaller - happy accident!!

The trial was the lower blank blew up on me using the crappy 2 blade carbide barrel trimmer.  A huge chunk broke out all the way down to the tube.  I was going to toss this pen and start over, but I already had all the hard part done on the upper barrel.  So with little to loose, I massaged the chunk back to shape and CAed it back together.  I told some people at work there was an issue with the pen, and no-one could find it until I showed them the seam lines.  Amazing how well it turned out.  One of the cracks is inb the photo. Good luck finding it!

Oh Yea - CB on tennon - no saws - all parts on lathe.

One thing I noticed as well is the CD glue lines seem a hair more noticable than prior efforts.  I used epoxy on the CB instead of CA becasue I wanted more open time to get things on right and the grain aligned.  Is Epoxy know to have slightly more noticable glue lines?  I kinda like them there (for this pen) as it adds a bit of definition. 

Hardware is satin pearl.  Finish is CA/BLO left at it's natural soft gloss.


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## DurocShark

That's beautiful! 

Pens like that I do from $30 - $50. Depends on your market though.


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## Sylvanite

RAdams said:


> ... Then mount it between centers, only each end would be slightly off center in oposite directions.


Ah!  You mean to turn it off-axis.  Yes, that would allow you to cut a flat angle on the lathe.  Doing that between centers might be tough though.  You'd need either a very short (which for segments, would be fine) or very large diameter initial piece to get much of an angle.  I also suspect that it wouldn't want to stay between centers.

Keep the ideas coming!

Regards,
Eric


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## PenMan1

soligen said:


> Here it is - my second entry, which I like much better. And I think its sold!! my first sale! I just need to figure out a price.
> 
> The blank came as part of an unlabeled assertment - I think its Zebrawood - someone please tell be otherwize if this isnt so. The accent wood is walnut. I was expecting a bit more contrast between the woods - oh well, the buyer likes it.


 
My first guess is desert Iron wood. I guess it could be zebrawood, but the zebra that I get is usually much lighter than this.


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## RHossack

Rick_G said:


> So I took some time while waiting for the finish to dry.  My #2 challenge pen.
> 
> Again a small piece of white ash


Rick, outstanding!  ... that is some crazy looking wood there ... makes me want to look for some ash.


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## soligen

Butch,

What type of cigar pen are we doing for challenge 3?  I'm making up an order and want to throw one in.  Twist or Rollerball?


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## soligen

RAdams said:


> I am lost now. I dont understand all the axis conical stuff...
> 
> Its a completely absurd idea anyway.  I was going for the off-the-wall prize :beer::beer:


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## DurocShark

If a cigar is required for 3, I'll probably skip it. I have no stuff for cigars, and not much interest in messing with them.


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## ldb2000

Don , stage 3 can be done with a slimline as well . As I said I'll be using a cigar because it's fun to play with other kits as well and you end up with a more impressive pen . I will be adding one more modification to what's already been done .

By the way ,  I really like the design of your entry . It is different and looks really good . I think the wood has some great grain and the clip is cool .


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## DurocShark

Cool. I just can't get into them looks-wise. Thanks.




Crap. Now I gotta buy some more slim kits. LOL!


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## Rick_G

I like what you did with the pen Don.  You make the clip or have access to a secret supplier I don't know about.


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## DurocShark

I can't find my bookmark for the site I bought it from. I'm sure someone else has a link... (And will share so I can re-add it to my browser.)


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## Rick_G

RHossack said:


> Rick, outstanding!  ... that is some crazy looking wood there ... makes me want to look for some ash.



Thanks Ron, I originally bought 400 bd ft to redo my kitchen and it turned out to be full of powder post beetles.  The guy I bought it from came tonight to pick it up.  He refunded my money a couple weeks ago.  Left me with some I had already cut.  Most of it will wind up in the fireplace but there are about 6 pieces with grain like this.  These came from the sides of a section of board where a branch had run through it on a 45 deg. angle with the length of the board.  Likely only about a dozen sections like this in the 400 bd ft but I managed to keep about half.  I do a lot of flatwork and have found the pieces I used to throw away because the grain was just to ugly and didn't go with the rest of the piece make the nicest pens.


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## ldb2000

Hey Don , just a point of reference , You might want to pick up a cigar or three with those slims . I'm gonna be changing the way a cigar looks . When the build is done we will have cigars that look nothing like cigars .


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## mbroberg

ldb2000 said:


> Hey Don , just a point of reference , You might want to pick up a cigar or three with those slims . I'm gonna be changing the way a cigar looks . When the build is done we will have cigars that look nothing like cigars .



Heck, that has happened to me before, and I wasn't even trying to be different!!


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## DurocShark

DurocShark said:


> I can't find my bookmark for the site I bought it from. I'm sure someone else has a link... (And will share so I can re-add it to my browser.)



Here we go! I can't belive I forgot this...

http://www.penmakers.com

:redface:


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## knight_muzzleloader

skiprat said:


> I hope you don't mind me adding this Butch, but here's a tip that might be useful to some. There have been some really beautiful pens so far and I'd hate to see someone spoil one.
> 
> If you unfortunately need to glue in your finial, then DONT put the glue on the finial tenon. Put a little inside the tube instead. If you put it on the tenon then it will gather up as you press it in an make a mess around your clip. If you use CA, it will probably ruin the plating.:wink:


dang!  Wish I would have read this before I did that last pen.  That is exactly what happened with mine.  Put a little drop on the tenon and it spooshed out and ruined the coating!  I"m going to have to disassemble and refinish.  What a pain!  I should always check the website first! haha  Jim  live and learn


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## Stevej72

I really need to check into this forum more often.  I didn't find these challenges until yesterday.  I went ahead and did the stage one challenge and will start stage 2 so I can hopefully catch up.  Thanks for doing these challenges,  Butch!


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## ldb2000

Glad to have you joining in Steve . I'm looking forward to seeing what you come up with .


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## mbroberg

I just completed the stage 2 challenge. It's made of Madreperlato - Silver Grey and Blood Red blanks from Exotic Blanks.

I learned quite a bit about tenons doing this one. This is the 2nd pen I tried for this stage.  The first on will still be a nice pen once it is done, but the center band will be segmented on the tube.  I was determined to get the center band on a tenon.  Once I figured out what I was doing wrong it was rather easy.  I do need to read more about jam chucks.  I ended up just using my Collet chuck to make the finial.  The finial gave me some problem also.  I would get a good tight press fit, but couldn't get the clip ring on the tenon.  Once I got it to where I could slide the clip on I needed to glue it in the pen.    You are looking at finial #3.  I am also not thrilled with the glue joints of the center band and the lower red ring.  They looked good and tight when I glued them up, but as i turned them there is a glue line showing.

No saws were used to construct the pen.





Constructive criticism is requested!!


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## DurocShark

Beautiful!


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## Sylvanite

mbroberg said:


> The finial gave me some problem also.  I would get a good tight press fit, but couldn't get the clip ring on the tenon.  Once I got it to where I could slide the clip on I needed to glue it in the pen.


I had the same problem.  When my tenon was a good press fit, the clip wouldn't slip on.  I enlarged the hole with a dremel tool in order to get the pen together.

Regards,
Eric


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## mbroberg

Sylvanite said:


> I had the same problem.  When my tenon was a good press fit, the clip wouldn't slip on.  I enlarged the hole with a dremel tool in order to get the pen together.
> 
> Regards,
> Eric




AH HA!!:embarrassed:  I should have thought of that.  Had tunnel vision on getting that tenon right.  Didn't even think about making the hole bigger.:bulgy-eyes:


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## ldb2000

Great looking pen Mike . It's sometimes hard to get an invisible glue joint . If the two materials are different types of resins they usually have different densities and the joint will show , not much you can do about it except put a finish over it and with acrylic that's too much work for the results . 
Jam chucks are easy to make and do a good job of holding the blank in place . It's best to use a good hardwood but even a pine 2X4 will work for a one-off . Just turn your wood to fit the chuck you are using and then turn the jam part to just a hair bigger then your tube and then jam your blank on . It should go all the way on tightly but not so tight that you have to hammer it on , just good and snug . Don't remove it from the chuck until you are done turning your blank because any variance from the chuck will be multiplied when you put it back in . I usually make new ones for each use but if you can mark the position in the chuck you may be able to use it over again .


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## soligen

On jam chucks.  I get the concept - mount up a peice of wood - put a hole in it.  jam your work into the hole - tight.

What I dont get yet is why?  Why would you do this over a collet or another kind of chuck?


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## soligen

OMG - light bulb just went on.  I had it backwards.  I thought the jam chuck was a hole you pushed the pen into. You basically turn a dowel a tad bigger than your tube, then push the the pen part onto it.

That is very useful.

Now those past comments about jam chucks makes more sense to me.

I'm such a newbie lol.


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## PaulDoug

I  haven't  paraticipated in these exercises but have been watching and learning.  Butch this is a great idea you started here.  Kind of a progressive tutorial.  Thanks for doing it.  Some awesome pens being made.  Wish I didn't havae so many other things going on right now so I could join in.


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## ldb2000

It's a tutorial without the spoon fed knowledge . It's a learn as you go or if you already know then it's an improve your technique as you go event . This stuff isn't rocket science , you just need to think logically about how something is done , to look at someone else's work and think "How did he do that ?" then work it out . If you think about it and try to understand what they did , anyone could do it . If you look at someones work and say "I could never do that" ..... you're right !
I have seen some amazing work done here by people who have never built anything other then a plain , stock pen kit and all they had to go on was a photo of a pen that I made and a brief statement that no saws were used to do it . I think that is pretty awesome .
Congrats to all who have played so far . Stick around , there ain't no obese females singing yet . The best is yet to come !


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## DurocShark

One thing I didn't mention for mine was the cheap way I did my finial. 

Turned the tenon to a press fit in a 7mm tube. Left the meat rough. I jammed it into an old slimline bushing, then chucked that bushing in my drill chuck mounted in my headstock. Turned and finished the finial, then popped it out of the bushing (had to remove it from the chuck so I could bang it with a 1/4" transfer punch). 

Poor man's collet chuck!


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## soligen

DurocShark said:


> One thing I didn't mention for mine was the cheap way I did my finial.
> 
> Turned the tenon to a press fit in a 7mm tube. Left the meat rough. I jammed it into an old slimline bushing, then chucked that bushing in my drill chuck mounted in my headstock. Turned and finished the finial, then popped it out of the bushing (had to remove it from the chuck so I could bang it with a 1/4" transfer punch).
> 
> Poor man's collet chuck!


 
Exellent! I like it.  That way the press fit is tested before you all the rest of the work.

I basically made a 1/2 inch dowel and chucked it in my drill chuck, turned the finial and parted it off.


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## Stevej72

I hadn't checked into the forum for awhile and missed this challenge when it was first posted.  Even though I was late I still wanted to start at the beginning, so I did the Challenge One pen (probably the wrong place to post it, but here it is).  It is Bethlehem Olive Wood with Ebony. 

My Challenge Two pen is acrylic and unfortunately I didn't have a lot to choose from, so I went with the blue and a darker blue CB and finial.  I did both of them totally on the lathe and really enjoyed learning how to do it.  I had a piece of HSS about .055 thick from a tool kit I bought for my metal lathe that worked great for cutting the slices off.  I cut the tenon and glued the rings to it.  Just about had the finial finished and decided I needed to take a little more off the diameter to fit into the tube, and it ended up a little too small, so I had to glue it.

I should have painted the tubes as you can see the tube on the trim I put just below the finial. Other than that I am happy with it.


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## DurocShark

They both look great Steve. Good work!


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## Stevej72

Thanks Don, it was  lot of fun trying something a little different.


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## ldb2000

Great job on both Steve . I really like the stage 2 pen , the acrylic and the satin kit go great together . 
To everyone who had to or wanted to glue in the finials , don't worry the more you practice the easier it get and the more accurate you will become turning the tenons . Tenons are very important in both Modified kit and in kitless work and you will find that they make for stronger and better pens .


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## truckfixr

I haven't posted very much, but I have lurked around for quite a while now. The pens many of you make are truly fantastic. 

Here is my entry. It's a home-brew blank I made a while back before I had the means to use vacuum/pressure, so it has a few bubbles in the resin. The cap and center band rings are white corian. Constructive criticism welcome, of course.

Thanks,
Chuck.


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## ldb2000

That looks great to me . Nice blank and you did a good job with it . 
Welcome to the group Chuck , glad you came out of the shadows and posted your pen . Don't be a stranger now , come join in the fun , we don't bite ....... well Cav does sometimes but we keep him locked up and well fed :devil::biggrin:

Sheese , I just noticed your from Texas , do all Texans make pens ??? :biggrin::biggrin:


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## Stevej72

Hey Chuck, very nice work on both the blank and the pen.  White Corian  reminds me that I have a ton of that somewhere, I'll have to dig it out.


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## Stevej72

Since the finial on my last pen was to loose and had to be glued, I decided to give it another try.  Maroon acrylic and white Corian with black tactile finish.  Not sure how much I like the black with the white, but I'm reasonably happy with the pen, especially since I got the finial to press fit.


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## ldb2000

Great job Steve . Nice color - kit combo . Corian is great stuff for modified kit and kitless work , Tru-stone is another great material , it's very stable and works well .


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## truckfixr

Very nice pen, Steve. I think the black kit was a great choice. The dark color blends with the blank and showcases the corian accents.


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## Stevej72

Thanks guys!  The more I look at the pen the more I like it.


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## DurocShark

So what's stage 3? I bought a pair of Cigar kits. . .


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## ldb2000

I'm working on it . I was doing some yard work the other day and my back went out again so I've been laid up for the last few days . I felt a little better this afternoon and got a little time in the shop . I managed to get the blank turned round and drilled and I even got the CB done . I'll get back to it as soon as I can . It should be up in a day or two .


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## DurocShark

Ack! Ignore my rantings and take care of yourself!


And that's proof that yard work is bad for you and you shouldn't do it!


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## Stevej72

Hey Butch, sorry to hear about your back going out again.  I know that can be very painful, my wife working in a nursing home for many years and now her back goes out very easily.  I hope you get to feeling better soon!


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## Rick_G

I just get back from a weekend at my son's and read this.  Now I have to go out and plant grass where the new weeping bed was put in.  Take care of your back, I know what that's like and will likely know again tomorrow.


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## ldb2000

I hate just laying here when there are things to be done . I wasn't even doing any thing strenuous , just bending over to pick up some small branches , nothing heavy , and when I straightened up I felt it go . I'm just thankful that I fixed this laptop a couple of months ago , I would be going insane by now without it .
I managed to get some blanks cast last night , I had run out of black blanks . I'm hoping to get into the shop for a half hour or so tonight so I can get the glue up done and work on the finial for a bit .


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## Stevej72

Butch, I don't think you're supposed to bend over and pick things up.  I think you're supposed to squat down so your legs do the work.


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## PenMan1

Sorry about your back, Butch. Take care of yourself.


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## RAdams

Stevej72 said:


> Butch, I don't think you're supposed to bend over and pick things up. I think you're supposed to squat down so your legs do the work.


 

Forget that... It is much funner to give some random neighborhood knucklehead..... i mean kid $5 to pick up all the sticks! Or even better... get a nephew or something to do it for free!:biggrin:


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## ldb2000

The sad thing is I have 2 able bodied teenage sons that should be doing it but just try to get them to do anything around here , even under threat of death or worse ... loss of their computers . The really sad thing is when their friends parents ask for some help with something they jump at the chance to help . I had been asking them for over a week to clean up the yard and just got tired of the excuses so I went out and did it myself . For the first couple of days after my back went out they had a terrible case of the guilts and were tripping over each other to help me but that has gone and they are back to normal . I would put them up on ebay but I couldn't afford to pay the price it would cost for someone to take them :biggrin: Lazy teenagers just ain't worth what they used to be when I was a kid ....:wink::biggrin:

Oh , and to make things worse now the LOML is in the hospital with a respiratory infection . She has COPD and a cold the the kids (who else) brought home and we got over with no ill effect has laid her up for a couple of days . She's ok but they are keeping her for a few days .  When it rains ....


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## DurocShark

Yikes! Dude. I thought MY life was interesting!


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## mbroberg

Man-Oh-Man .  Don'T walk.....errrr, limp......hobble under any ladders.  I hope the rain stops soon!  Maybe you can ask some of their friends to help you.


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## ldb2000

Ok , I got a little time in the shop today and the stage 3 pen is complete . I just have to take some photos and I will get it posted tonight . Good luck everyone .


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## phillywood

ldb2000 said:


> That looks great to me . Nice blank and you did a good job with it .
> Welcome to the group Chuck , glad you came out of the shadows and posted your pen . Don't be a stranger now , come join in the fun , we don't bite ....... well Cav does sometimes but we keep him locked up and well fed :devil::biggrin:
> 
> Sheese , I just noticed your from Texas , do all Texans make pens ??? :biggrin::biggrin:


 
Butch Texans are good at laying around and eating BBQ aand chasing....... Mosquitos we got plaenty of themdown here.


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## phillywood

ldb2000 said:


> I'm working on it . I was doing some yard work the other day and my back went out again so I've been laid up for the last few days . I felt a little better this afternoon and got a little time in the shop . I managed to get the blank turned round and drilled and I even got the CB done . I'll get back to it as soon as I can . It should be up in a day or two .


 
well, butch, as a therapist and one with the back problem and wating microsurgery to correct, I am warnning you to learn proper body mechanics. Mine finally caught up with me and they will have to do some physical therapy after the surgery and probably some strict teaching of buddy mechanics. remeber you have teenagers now. you can't be chasing them around the yard and also have to ask the better half to hwlp when you can. we used to be limber. 
BTW, go to Walgreens and ask them for Japaneese made pain patch called salompas the package is green and they work very good on back apin. then when you get the apin try not to drink caffein or any stimulant, because it slows down your body's natural way of fighting the pain.
Your consultation Bill is on it's way later.
I am glad yo uare doing well, because you are great experioenced buddy we have here on line.


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## Papa Bear

*Pen makers challenge 2*



 Ok,I finally put everybody else off so I could make this before it was too late!It's a home brew orange pr with alt ivory accents(a freebie from exotics).No saws were used.The finial is a snug fit but could have been a little tighter,I may put a drop of ca just to be safe!Thanks again Butch!
Gary


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## soligen

CA supposedy will damage your plating.  Use epoxy on the finial.


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## mbroberg

That's a beautiful pen.  Nice job!


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## Papa Bear

Thanks Mike,I made a thinner orange band but it didn't look as good to me so I made it thicker.I remember reading something about ca and platings,Thanks for reminding me!


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## ldb2000

Great job Gary . I really like the look of your CB , very well balanced and clean looking . Dennis is right about the CA , bad idea to use it around plated parts . The out-gassing will stain or discolor a plated component . Use epoxy or if it's metal to metal Red loctite to glue your parts together .


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## Stevej72

That is a nice looking pen, Gary!


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## soligen

That IS a nice pen.  I was so focused on getting the post up about the CA to prevent something unfortuante, I neglected to say so earlier - Doh


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