# QUALITY MADE PEN TURNER'S VISE



## sdemars (Apr 26, 2012)

I found a fellow making a fantastic self centering vise . . . .

Below is the link . . . .

T.V. Geist Manufacturing, Inc.

The vise is featured in JUNE 2012 Woodturning Design Magazine.

Only $59.99 each . . .


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## PenMan1 (Apr 26, 2012)

Boy! If I were Paul Huffman, I'd be upset. Except for the red anodized finish, this vise looks just like the one Paul has been making for years!


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## sdemars (Apr 26, 2012)

*I have . . .*

I have (3) of Paul's Vises . . .

I tried to buy a 4th, they are not being made anymore. He is not taking orders . . . :-(

He no longer offers them . . .

I spoke with this guy . . . he said he has never seen Paul's Vise nor was he familiar with IAP until I spoke with him today. 

He got a really nice two page color layout in June Woodturning Magazine this month.

Anyway, I thought I would share . . . 

This way people that were left VISE-LESS after being on a waiting list for years can get one.

If I was Paul I would be very proud of the excellent review "his design" got in Woodturners Magazine.

I don't think Paul will be offended . . . . besides, his are pretty red . . . .


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## PenMan1 (Apr 26, 2012)

Huffman vises are available at Classic Nibs.

http://classicnib.com/ph-designs-vise-and-press.html


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## Linarestribe (Apr 26, 2012)

He still makes them and are sold at Roys site.


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## sdemars (Apr 26, 2012)

*Who . . .*

Many months ago I tried to order from Paul ...

I sent multiple PMs & e-mails . . . got no reply . . .

Like I said, I have (3) of Paul's Vises . . .

What's delivery like . . . I waited months & months for mine . . . One was over a year . . .

Does Paul have someone making them for him? 

or, when did he start making them again . . .?

I have been away a while, but not that long . . 

Thanks,
Steve


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## Andrew_K99 (Apr 26, 2012)

I seem to remember Roy (Classic Nibs) saying that he will sell and distribute for Paul and let him deal with making the vises.

Regardless, Pauls vises use brass bushings and the fit and finish is great. I doubt that one uses brass bushings and if you zoom in you can see saw marks on the angles.

I also think this guy is full of it and there is no way he hasn't see one of Paul's vises. They're almost identical and use the exact same handle!


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## Phunky_2003 (Apr 26, 2012)

My PH vise isn't red...


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## sdemars (Apr 26, 2012)

*Actually . . .*



Andrew_K99 said:


> I seem to remember Roy (Classic Nibs) saying that he will sell and distribute for Paul and let him deal with making the vises.
> 
> Regardless, Pauls vises use brass bushings and the fit and finish is great. I doubt that one uses brass bushings and if you zoom in you can see saw marks on the angles.
> 
> I'd also this this guy is full of it and there is no way he hasn't see one of Paul's vises.  They're almost identical and use the exact same handle!



Actually he does use oilite bushings, which are oil infused brass bushings . . .

When I saw the spread in Woodturners my first thought was, "HEY PAUL MADE IT TO THE BIG TIME".

Then I realized it was someone else . . 

I guess Kurt Hertzog, the writer of the article has been under a rock for the last 5 plus years . . .


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## Ulises Victoria (Apr 26, 2012)

I just got a PH vise a couple of weeks ago from Classic Nibs. Ordered and shipped really fast.  Very nice indeed. This one looks just the same and at half the price. Of course looks on a photo is one thing.


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## Chuck Key (Apr 26, 2012)

Tom Geist has been around the woodworking community for years.  Many know him as the former American Tech Support rep for Teknatool.


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## Paul in OKC (Apr 27, 2012)

http://www.penturners.org/forum/f18/not-my-vise-84824/
Hard to think he never saw one. My vise was supposed to get a review by Kurt (I thought). Anyway, they say being copied is a form of flattery. 
 Steve, as far as I know I acknowledged all notes I received from you,  as I do all. Sorry if I missed some. I have had my pm turned off some times.
Anyway, not sure what I think about it right now, got enough other life going on.


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## glycerine (Apr 27, 2012)

Paul in OKC said:


> http://www.penturners.org/forum/f18/not-my-vise-84824/
> Hard to think he never saw one. My vise was supposed to get a review by Kurt (I thought). Anyway, they say being copied is a form of flattery.
> Steve, as far as I know I acknowledged all notes I received from you, as I do all. Sorry if I missed some. I have had my pm turned off some times.
> Anyway, not sure what I think about it right now, got enough other life going on.


 
Paul, how long have you been making these?


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## IPD_Mr (Apr 27, 2012)

glycerine said:


> Paul in OKC said:
> 
> 
> > http://www.penturners.org/forum/f18/not-my-vise-84824/
> ...


 
He was making these before I joined IAP which was five years ago?


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## Paul in OKC (Apr 27, 2012)

Don't remember when I started this style. Been at least 6 years.


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## NC Wood Art (Apr 27, 2012)

Unless there is a patent in place or at least applied for this is  clearly a case of Capitalism. Not sure what needs to be done as far as changes to make it "Your own" design. When someone sells item for profit is when it becomes a legal issue in my opinion. If you have rights Paul I would use them, maybe a friendly letter from your attorney would help the situation. Surely Kurt should have known better but may have been a paid endorsement like so many are now.


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## OKLAHOMAN (Apr 27, 2012)

Just so all will know I talked to Kurt yesterday because I had sent him a  PH Designs vise to review in the magazine in January and was just a little upset that it wasn't.  Seems his editor had requested he review the vise he had sitting on his desk for a while and have Kurt do a complete review on all types of vises in a later issue. This was beyound Kurts ability as the Editor is his boss so he had no alturnative so please don't make him out as the bad guy. As to this copy, I can not and will not say as to it's quality, I can only say there is only one original PH Designs vise and it is still being made and sold  and in 6 years none....I repeat none have ever been returned....


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## WWAtty (Apr 27, 2012)

AeroCustoms.com said:


> Unless there is a patent in place or at least applied for this is  clearly a case of Capitalism. Not sure what needs to be done as far as changes to make it "Your own" design. When someone sells item for profit is when it becomes a legal issue in my opinion. If you have rights Paul I would use them, maybe a friendly letter from your attorney would help the situation. Surely Kurt should have known better but may have been a paid endorsement like so many are now.



Unless there is a pending or issued patent, anyone else is free to copy the design with impunity.  While the moral question of copying someone's non-patented invention blow-by-blow is open to debate, the legality of it isn't. I see no violation of patent law here.  

And if the original inventor has been selling, offering for sale, or has disclosed the invention to others for a year or more, his right to file for patent protection in the U.S. has expired.


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## edicehouse (Apr 27, 2012)

This topic seems to come up every 6 months.


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## The Penguin (Apr 27, 2012)

WWAtty said:


> AeroCustoms.com said:
> 
> 
> > Unless there is a patent in place or at least applied for this is  clearly a case of Capitalism. Not sure what needs to be done as far as changes to make it "Your own" design. When someone sells item for profit is when it becomes a legal issue in my opinion. If you have rights Paul I would use them, maybe a friendly letter from your attorney would help the situation. Surely Kurt should have known better but may have been a paid endorsement like so many are now.
> ...



that won't stop me from not ordering a "copycat" vice from the new guy.


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## glycerine (Apr 27, 2012)

They both look similar to this one that PSI apparently used to make.  Except this one doesn't have an angle brace on BOTH sides, only one.  I guess they were trying to make them cheaper???

http://www.pennstateind.com/library/DRILLCENT_ins.pdf


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## Texatdurango (Apr 27, 2012)

sdemars said:


> ..........
> I spoke with this guy . . . he said he has never seen Paul's Vise nor was he familiar with IAP until I spoke with him today.
> 
> ..........If I was Paul I would be very proud of the excellent review "his design" got in Woodturners Magazine.



Your first comment just shows that anyone can lie well as long as they can keep a straight face!  Did you see Paul's thread dated last August where this character contacted him then?  I'm sure this isn't the first time someone stole someone else's idea and had an article written up on it.

Your second comment, well it's upside down logic to me.  Why would Paul be happy to see the guy who copied his idea profit from all his hard work over the years to get the vice perfected.  Probably what would have made Paul proud would be to read in the article.... "This isn't my idea, I just copied Paul Huffman's idea to the letter, he is the one who should receive all the credit, I just surf the web looking for ideas to copy!"

As far as others not knowing about who made the original vice..... doubtful!


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## sdemars (Apr 27, 2012)

*Due to my experience . . .*

Due to my experience with forums, I want to make it perfectly clear why I did my initial post.

Some time back I had tried to order a 4th vise from Paul, but we all know that thread was CLOSED & production was shut down.

He had made one large batch to try to fill "back" orders. He had run into a problem with his anodizer also.

Also, at this same time I believe Paul said he was busy with a new employer.

So, please excuse my ignorance of the PH Design Vise being offered again during my absence. . . . . 

Like I said, I have been away for good while . . .

When I paged through my June Issue on Woodturning Design I spotted the vise. 

My first thought was Paul was being covered in the magazine . . . and why didn't he have the pretty RED VISE in the magazine article. 

After reading & determining that it was someone else, I called the fellow featured in the article.

Spoke with him briefly about the vise & ordered one of his sanding devices.

I'm glad Paul is still making vises. . . . so now you can get a Beautiful RED ANODIZED VISE for $120.00 or a basic aluminum one for $59.99.

Funny thing about all this is I told Paul years ago HIS price was to cheap.

Now, I must be honest, I feel a little "anger" towards Woodturning Design Magazine.

While I may have been ignorant of the PH Design Vise being available again, I now KNOW that Woodturning Magazine WAS NOT ! ! ! !

They actually had a PH Design Vise in their possesion & desided to feature ONLY "TIMS" vise which I'm sure many feel is a copy. I have no problem with Tim's vise, that is between him and Paul. I do have a problem with Woodturning Magazine which I $ubscribe to so I can stay up with techniques & tools.


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## jd99 (Apr 27, 2012)

*Sanding jig*

Beyond the Vise
The sanding jig is interesting, it looks like it's just a V-Block attached to a miter gage.

Might look at making my own version, but a little different. :wink:


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## sdemars (Apr 27, 2012)

*I'll . . . .*



jd99 said:


> Beyond the Vise
> The sanding jig is interesting, it looks like it's just a V-Block attached to a miter gage.
> 
> Might look at making my own version, but a little different. :wink:



I'll buy one . . . I love tools . . . 

Steve


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## WWAtty (Apr 27, 2012)

> that won't stop me from not ordering a "copycat" vice from the new guy.



I wouldn't either.  Rather see my $$ going to a good IAP member.

Maybe Paul should step up the competition a bit and tout his vise as "The Original," "don't accept cheap substitutes," etc.  I'd prefer to buy the original device than some knockoff.


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## Andrew_K99 (Apr 27, 2012)

I've been around a little over a year now and can recall a number of threads on the delays Paul experienced and the waiting list you had to be on to get one.

From a business point of view this is asking for someone to copy you.  It says I have a good product worth waiting for but I can't keep up with demand.  It's surprising that one of the big guys didn't copy the design like they did with the "Pen Pro".

I'm certainly not saying it is right, it's just a reality.

AK


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## maxwell_smart007 (Apr 27, 2012)

Andrew, I believe the delays may be a thing of the past, now that Paul's gone into partnership to sell the vice.  

Paul's vice is now sold through the Classic Nib website - have you tried ordering from there?


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## Paul in OKC (Apr 27, 2012)

WWAtty said:


> > that won't stop me from not ordering a "copycat" vice from the new guy.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Might be good point to add!
I do not have a patent. Can't afford one. My thought has always been that I would build my stuff and if some one copied it, well, it is a free country. If I was going to copy something, I would  not consider selling any, just make one for me. When I get more time, I have a couple of other things up my sleeve. I hope to have a few more of the 'one and only' available thru Roy soon. Thanks for your support.


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## Andrew_K99 (Apr 27, 2012)

maxwell_smart007 said:


> Andrew, I believe the delays may be a thing of the past, now that Paul's gone into partnership to sell the vice.
> 
> Paul's vice is now sold through the Classic Nib website - have you tried ordering from there?


 I was aware of that ... just pointing out that someone looking to make a buck would have jumped all over that situation.


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## tjseagrove (Apr 27, 2012)

WWAtty said:


> AeroCustoms.com said:
> 
> 
> > Unless there is a patent in place or at least applied for this is  clearly a case of Capitalism. Not sure what needs to be done as far as changes to make it "Your own" design. When someone sells item for profit is when it becomes a legal issue in my opinion. If you have rights Paul I would use them, maybe a friendly letter from your attorney would help the situation. Surely Kurt should have known better but may have been a paid endorsement like so many are now.
> ...



I believe a design can be covered under copyright.


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## WWAtty (Apr 27, 2012)

> I believe a design can be covered under copyright.



Generally not if it's a purely functional device.  Copyright covers works of expression, which is quite broad.  But there is an established body of law that recognizes the fact that functional devices are outside of copyright protection.  

That said, there may be certain "artistic" or aesthetic aspects of even a functional device that may be protected under copyright law.  However, those aspects will be separated from the functional aspects when determining the scope of copyright protection.


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## wolftat (Apr 27, 2012)

Someone go find a rope, I'll go get a tree. Afterwards we can ask some questions, I want action now. As always a good hanging is manditory before a trial.


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## plano_harry (Apr 27, 2012)

Someone else is already making that design also.  I saw it last week on one of the usual pen hardware sites.  Can't recall because I liked _linarestribe's_ idea of chucking a HF punch in the tailstock and putting a sanding disk on the headstock.  The v-block might be more efficient.




jd99 said:


> Beyond the Vise
> The sanding jig is interesting, it looks like it's just a V-Block attached to a miter gage.
> 
> Might look at making my own version, but a little different. :wink:


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## jd99 (Apr 28, 2012)

Yea thats what I was thinking when I saw that, I like the idea of using the transfer punch and sanding disc, but I never used it because of the fact it wouldn't be very efficient with the amount of pens I turn.

The v-block thing look like it might be better.



plano_harry said:


> Someone else is already making that design also. I saw it last week on one of the usual pen hardware sites. Can't recall because I liked _linarestribe's_ idea of chucking a HF punch in the tailstock and putting a sanding disk on the headstock. The v-block might be more efficient.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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