# Swiss Rose Gold



## Tanner

I was wondering if anyone has had the Swiss Rose Gold get splotchy red?  You all just saw that Pink Coral TruStone I just did with Swiss Rose Gold.  It has been five days and my daughter showed it to me this morning and it has red splotches on the Swiss Rose Gold.  I rubbed and rubbed it with a rag and most came off, however if this continues to happen it will get old and bothersome.  She has kept it in a light brown leatherete case in her purse.  She has not left it in the car in the heat.


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## Draken

That would be the copper in the plating starting to tarnish.  Unfortunately, that comes with the territory, seems the plating isn't coated in a clear sealing topcoat.  The rose gold pen I made does the same thing.  So far, haven't found a fix for it other than polishing it up.  Needless to say, I won't be purchasing more of them.

Cheers,
Draken


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## Tanner

For something I spent $15.00 on, I won't be purchasing anymore either if red splotches appear after a few days.  What other platings tarnish?  I have purchased some copper kits lately, can I expect them to tarnish as well?  If so, they're going back.


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## Dario

Who makes/sells this kit?  Sorry not familiar with it.[:I]


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## DCBluesman

A simple coat of lacquer over the rose gold will cure this problem.  You could also try some TSW.


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## huntersilver

This is a Berea product, I did not have good results with it as
well, premium pricing too[:0]


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## Tanner

I went over it with TSW before I gave the pen to my daughter, so, it would appear that does not work.  I will try a coat of lacquer.  AZ Silhouette (Berea) is where I purchaed the kit.  It would be nice to see a notice on things like this that I'm sure they know will tarnish.


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## mick

Tim, AS does in fact have a warning on their website about Rose Gold tarnishing. It's under Explaination of platings of the Berea pen kits


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## Tanner

Yikes, sorry, I'll have to read the fine print on all these web sites from now on.


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## Fangar

Clear PC would fix that issue.  The lacquer will not hold it for long.  

Fangar


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## Rifleman1776

Thanks for the heads-up. That is a product to avoid.


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## Tanner

I've been thinking about heading to Sears to take a look at that Powder Coating unit of theirs.  I want to do some rifle shell pens and I have seen where that clear coating protects the brass after shining it.  After 10 minutes of searching I did find that section on Swiss Rose Gold tarnishing, "The copper in the alloy can cause Swiss rose gold can tarnish but it's beautiful luster can be brought back by lightly buffing the surface." How about will cause.  Their sentence needs to be fixed, that's exactly how it appears.  I'm still wondering if the copper platingâ€™s will do the same.  Nothing on the AZ Silhouette site regarding copper tarnishing, so I guess that means it doesn't.  As far as the Swiss Rose Gold BB says Renaissance Wax will help protect the plating.


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## txbob

> _Originally posted by Tanner_
> <br />I've been thinking about heading to Sears to take a look at that Powder Coating unit of theirs.



Tim,
I've also been looking at the Sears powder coating machine. It doesn't require an air compressor, which would be nice. Please post a review here if you buy one.
Thanks,
txbob &lt;-- in beautiful downtown Wyoming


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## its_virgil

Dario, 
It is a Berea kit and I've heard nothing good about the finish...tarnishes, wears terribly...and I don't personallyu think it looks that great.
Doa good turn daily!
Don


> _Originally posted by Dario_
> <br />Who makes/sells this kit?  Sorry not familiar with it.[:I]


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## its_virgil

txbob,
Have you looked at this one...it needs a compressor..uses very low air pressure...works great for me...I get powders for http:www.columbiacoatings.com


Do a good turn daily!
Don


> _Originally posted by txbob_
> <br />
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Originally posted by Tanner_
> <br />I've been thinking about heading to Sears to take a look at that Powder Coating unit of theirs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tim,
> I've also been looking at the Sears powder coating machine. It doesn't require an air compressor, which would be nice. Please post a review here if you buy one.
> Thanks,
> txbob &lt;-- in beautiful downtown Wyoming
Click to expand...


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## txbob

> _Originally posted by its_virgil_
> <br />txbob,
> Have you looked at this one...it needs a compressor..uses very low air pressure...works great for me...I get powders for http:www.columbiacoatings.com
> Do a good turn daily!
> Don


Ummm, which one? The powder paint gun on Columbia's web page is in fact the Sears unit we were talking about.

I had found the Columbia site, and I'm glad to know someone has used their powders with success. I'm getting bored looking at all the bare aluminum pens I'm making. Couple weeks ago we were at Scott's shop in Idaho and got to use his powder coating machine, from HF. I think I'm hooked.
Thanks,
txbob


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## its_virgil

Sorry Bob,
I meant to put a link to the Harbor Freight unit and didn't do it. Here it is: 
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=42802

It is the same unit sold by columbia coatings:
http://www.columbiacoatings.com/1024t45676ty78yj789345erfrg5467.htm


Sears has a store here that sells refurbished (Sears)tools and they always have 3 or 4 of their powdercoating guns. Don't know what that means...If you get the sears unit, powder is cheaper elsewhere. The Sears powder comes in little packets much the same size as the coffee packets in motel rooms for the little coffee makers. Email me and I'll send you a tutorial done by a friend on powdercoating, but if you were at Scott's, then you now know how it is done....It's not rocket science and the learning curve is not steep.

Do a goog turn daily!
Don



> _Originally posted by txbob_
> <br />
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Originally posted by its_virgil_
> <br />txbob,
> Have you looked at this one...it needs a compressor..uses very low air pressure...works great for me...I get powders from http:www.columbiacoatings.com
> Do a good turn daily!
> Don
> 
> 
> 
> Ummm, which one? The powder paint gun on Columbia's web page is in fact the Sears unit we were talking about.
> 
> I had found the Columbia site, and I'm glad to know someone has used their powders with success. I'm getting bored looking at all the bare aluminum pens I'm making. Couple weeks ago we were at Scott's shop in Idaho and got to use his powder coating machine, from HF. I think I'm hooked.
> Thanks,
> txbob
Click to expand...


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## Ligget

Thanks for the warning regarding rose gold, I have not bought any kits with this plating and never will now.


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## johncrane

I ALSO THANK YOU FOR THE WARNING' I WOULD HATE THEM BEING SHIPPED FROM U S A AND THEY WERE S..T"


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## thewishman

I, too, was looking at the Swiss rose gold kits, thanks for saving me the aggravation and expense.

Chris


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## wdcav1952

> _Originally posted by johncrane_
> <br />I ALSO THANK YOU FOR THE WARNING' I WOULD HATE THEM BEING SHIPPED FROM U S A AND THEY WERE S..T"



Guys, I have to say that given the above quote that Bill, although abrupt, was simply replying in kind to an all capitals accusation of shipping an inferior product.  Two wrongs don't make a right, and all that stuff, but no one likes to be accused of selling junk.

FWIW,


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## Mudder

> _Originally posted by wdcav1952_
> <br />
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Originally posted by johncrane_
> <br />I ALSO THANK YOU FOR THE WARNING' I WOULD HATE THEM BEING SHIPPED FROM U S A AND THEY WERE S..T"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Guys, I have to say that given the above quote that Bill, although abrupt, was simply replying in kind to an all capitals accusation of shipping an inferior product.  Two wrongs don't make a right, and all that stuff, but no one likes to be accused of selling junk.
> 
> FWIW,
Click to expand...



A few points:

I believe the accusation to be a slam on a product and it was uncalled for.

I also believe the reply was abrupt, In kind, but also uncalled for.

I researched Bills site and found where he stated that the copper in the Swiss Rose Gold could tarnish.

http://arizonasilhouette.com/Berea_Hardwoods_Images.htm

I also researched the Berea site and could not find a similar warning but perhaps I missed it.

http://www.bereahardwoods.com/new/plating.html

Finally, Two wrongs do not make a right but three rights make a left and two Wrights made an airplane.

This was probably a situation that would have been better served with an email or a call instead of being opened up here.


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## Daniel

In reply to the S**T statment above. Not all materials are maintenance free. this does not mean they are inferior or low quality. it means you have to take care of them. other items on my list to avoid if I don't want the extra care to worry about woould be. Ivory, and Mammoth Ivory, both are far from being cheap inferior or low quality materials. They both take special care to abvoid problems. knowing the materials you use and how to care for them is all part of becoming a better penmaker.


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## Randy_

> _Originally posted by Tanner_
> <br />.....She has kept it in a light brown leatherete case in her purse......



Leatherette could cover a multitude of sins...so I don't know exactly what we are talking about??  All shooters know or should know that you don't do long-term storage of firearms in leather holsters as the tanning chemicals can cause corrosion of the metal.  Maybe something similar is going on with the plating on the pen.  Perhaps changing to a velvet bag for storage of the pen might help??

I looked at the Berea catalog and don't see any warnings about possible tarnishing problems with this particular plating.  Maybe you should give them a call, directly, and see what they have to say.  It always amazes me that so many people overlook this option.


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## fuzzydog

Not trying to capture this post but it created a question in my mind. 

I just recieved a quanity of copper baron kits, should I expect that they will also turn over time. (No I didn't read AZSil site looking for a warning)

David


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## JimGo

FWIW, I've actually had one of my Jr. Statesman kits do the same thing when stored in a leather case.  It was a pen with a Lucite body, so the finishing chemicals (e.g., CA) wouldn't come into play in this case.  The only thing I could think of was that it was the leather.


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## Ron Mc

So....It appears that leather cases are not the recommended method of pen storage![]
OK, Anyone need to buy some? LOL[]


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## Chuck Key

So, if you see a customer carrying a leather purse you either do not sell the customer that $100 plus pen or at least be sure to tell them not to carry it in their crappy $1500 purse?


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## huntersilver

I have some swiss gold that I am not going to use.  If someone wants
some at 1/2 price please let me know.


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## Ron Mc

No Chuck what you do is sell them the $100.00 pen but give them a .10 velvet sleeve to protect their pen from their $1500.00 purse![]


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## Randy_

Some folks are used to polishing silver every so often and most pen owners don't own buffing equiptment so I wonder if a little silver polish or Brasso would keep the pens looking in top shape?  Does Brasso have an abrasive in it that would remove the plating??  Would either of the mentioned chemicals damage the wood finish??

Does anyone have any thoughts??


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## Monty

So then I guess I should save my money and give a box or velvet sleeve with my 
Jr. Statesman, Jr. Gent, and Emporer's instead of the leather cases I've been getting from  AS. Or does this not apply to TN gold and platinum platings of the premium kits?


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## Bill Baumbeck

Monty,

The Swiss Rose Gold plating is probably the most temperamental as to what it is stored in due to the copper in the plating and the chemicals in leather.  I have not received any comments and/or complaints with the other platings we sell when stored in the leatherette pen pouches we sell (which are made of naugahyde).

Bill Baumbeck
Arizona Silhouette


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## Pipes

I am not saying this to get in the middle of anything !! having said that I have another hobby that costs me MUCH MUCH more a my money than Pen making I collect watches all kinds from a 100 bucker to thousands a $$$$ and some are Rose Gold plate !! The good platings DO NOT tranish on Swiss Rose Gold plate even the dive watches used in salt water !!!!  !! Yes it is copper in the gold to make the Rose tone !! I have some watches that are hard worn fifty yrs old and plated in rose gold and other than a few scratches they never tarnish !! There is so many companys in EU plating this stuff and in the far east and NOT many folks these days know really were its done Swiss plating in the last 10 yrs or so has become a catch all phrase for anyone using or purporting to use the Swiss method even in the watch world  ! BUT if its the top end platings like used on HI end watches NO pouch should effect it IMO I store watches in watch boxes costing hundreads a dollars and some have vinyl or letherete pillows and it does NOT effect the plating even in the 2 I have that are leather !! ! IMHO from experiance IF the platings are top notch there is NO way they will turn... Stainless a get ate up thou IF stored in most leathers !!! NOW this is just IMHO Having said that also There is just NO way at the price we pay for kits we are gona get the top end platings again IMHO and we should expect in things like Rose Gold to have some tarnish problems with storage and even wear !! The kits would most likely have to tripple in price or MORE ot get the really good stuff actually plated by the swiss ! IMO again for what we pay there turning out some very durable platings Swiss I doubt it But China has come a LONG way  BUT very good for the money ! all this is just IMHO please don't throw fruit !  Yes iam a watch NUT and have at one time owned as many as 200 + all at once now less than a 100 [] Thou Rose Gold is not my thing in watches ! Mr B you sell very nice quality kits and supplies IMO and I will be a cust as long as your around ! I agree the platings you sell  are top notch in the pen makers world again IMHO only now .... Omega got caught a while back not telling there customers there bracelets were being made and shipped from CHINA !! ON Swiss Made watches  so I doubt Berea actually knows were the guy he is partners with in the far east is getting the plating done ! But being he is in the far east I have a good guess .. SO IMO there is NO pen kit I know of that is really Swiss Rose Gold plated IN Switzerland  IN MY personal opinion  maybe the method BUT the labor costs  in Switzerland are just WAY  to HI... for the price we pay for kits again this is just IMO only !!! No offense to anyone I hope ! But its hard to give an opinion and not offend someone []
  As for rare method well  hundreads a thousands a watches and jewerly specialy watches are Swiss Rose Gold plated or Swiss method  plated everday... saying RARE is like saying a RED FORD Mustang is RARE  but there is nothing IMHO RARE about Swiss Rose Gold plating .. Very common done everyday  Rant NOW over LOL sorry...

One more thought ![?] I can't understand WHY the price of the kits we make has NOT gone sky HI like gas !! Because the RAW material in them is going sky hi and has in some cases I thik gone up 400 to 700 % anyone look at the price a copper of late and nickle and such  CHINA is eating the stuff up ??? NOT complaining thou [] 

And IMHO BB is a fair honest and dependable dealer I make my living on the net and there seems to be NO way to please everyone BUT we try as Iam sure Bill does ..I have gotten the kind a service from him that we try to give to our custmers and that is all one can expect ! I order from him for lots a resons 1 is I try support most of the dealers here when I can ! and I like Berea kits BUT not the service I get from Berea BB and AZ are much more dependable IMHO and I recomend him Highly for what it worth as Iam sure most if NOT all do here !! 2 thumbs up for AZ and BB and all the dealers we have here ......



http://affordablepipes.com/


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## emackrell

Pipes, after reading your last post I had to smile at the quote in your signature.... please keep smoking your pipe, since it is so obviously keeping you feeling "calm and objective"!![]

cheers  Eileen


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## Bill Baumbeck

Hi Pipes,

I sent your post to Jim Heusinger, owner of Berea Hardwoods and the source of Swiss Rose Gold pen kits, for his review and comments.  He contacted the owner of the company that plates these kits for him and he submitted a response to Jim.  Jim gave me permission to post his reply in the IAP forum.

I thought the information he presented was very educational.  I believe members of this forum will get a real understanding of this plating as I did.  The more we know about these things the better off we are.

I found his comments about the rhodium plating interesting.  I have two customers which have unusual body chemistry in that their perspiration will cause rhodium to turn grey.

Bill Baumbeck
Arizona Silhouette


About the author:

David Vinson (BFA, MFA Cranbrook Academy of Art) is the Director of Metal Arts Specialties. For over 35 years his company has specialized in the restoration and electroplating of fine metal objects for museums, private collectors, corporations and individuals world wide.  He is widely recognized as an authority on precious metal electroplating and gilding processes on fine art and decorative objects.

His company also provides engineered gold platings for scientists, national laboratories and the medical field. In addition, he provides plating consulting services for numerous fortune 100 companies in the U.S. 


Hi Jim, 

After reviewing the thread I am reminded of humorist Mark Twain who remarked that "Itâ€™s not what you donâ€™t know that gets you in trouble, itâ€™s what you do know that is simply wrong!"
I will try to explain in laymen's terms as much as possible the main points that are covered in the thread. I hope this will help clarify things.


<b>The good platings DO NOT tarnish on Swiss Rose Gold plate even the dive watches used in salt water!!!!!!</b>

Well this is simply a bad observation based on an incomplete understanding of chemistry. Any copper, whether cast, plated or forged, will react to the chlorine and trace chemistries in salt water. There are "copper colored" nitride coatings that are inert and are sometimes used on decorative and hardware items. If there are doubts stick a common U.S. penny in warm salt water and see what happens in 20-30 minutes, equivalent to a nice scuba dive in the Florida Keys.


<b>Yes it is copper in the gold to make the Rose tone!! </b>

This is correct, but how much copper is in the rose gold? This will influence color and tarnishing.  Rose gold color varies widely from a "copper rust" (22kt) color to the vivid pink colors known as "Black hills rose gold" (16kt). Solid Rose gold jewelry (not plated) and watches are homogenous alloys of silver, copper and gold and sometimes zinc. The atomic arrangement of the copper and gold are uniform and relatively stable to tarnishing. Typically 18kt gold is 75% gold, 22% copper, 3% silver.


<b>I have some watches that are hard worn fifty yrs old and plated in rose gold and other than a few scratches they never tarnish !!</b>

That may be but it doubtful they are plated. When the tarnish is removed you would be surprised at their true rose color. This is a "Sistine chapel" surprise to most watch owners once our company cleans their watch as a result of scratch removal and restoration.


<b>There is so many companies in Europe plating this stuff and in the far east and NOT many folks these days know really were its done Swiss plating in the last 10 yrs or so has become a catch all phrase for anyone using or purporting to use the Swiss method even in the watch world!</b>

This is incorrect. While companies may refer to Swiss gold plating as a marketing term few if any are using what us old guys in the plating trade would define as Swiss gold plating. This term refers to chemistries and methods that provide quality gold plating in very thick and durable layers. This is not easy or common today.

During the 50's and 60's the Swiss watch industry used neutral ph gold plating baths that provided excellent quality gold plating in thicknesses up to 20-40 microns, enough to last for years. True Swiss gold plating was and still is done using either the "Volks" or the "Spreter" gold plating chemistries. Literally 90% of the watches plated by Swiss companies during this period used these baths or a variant of them. Plating in Switzerland and Europe was done by small specialty houses contracted by the watch and jewelry manufacturers.

Today most platers in the U.S. and Asia are using acid based chemistries that are not able to provide the plated rose gold thickness, yet can provide good color and tint if properly maintained. These chemistries are purchased from specialty plating chemical companies and are common world-wide. The catch all phrase is an uncharitable description but it is mostly a marketing issue.


<b>BUT if its the top end platings like used on HI end watches NO pouch should effect it IMO I store watches in watch boxes costing hundreds a dollars and some have vinyl or leatherette pillows and it does NOT effect the plating even in the 2 I have that are leather!!</b>

As restorers of fine metal objects and antiquities this does not jive with the facts. Whether a plating is top end (usually defined as thickness and uniformity of the gold and copper in the rose alloy) or not, depending on the material, all copper based alloys will react to the discrete environment of a closed container. Tanned and dyed leathers, wood oils, leaded seams in metal boxes, etc. are not stable and oxidize constituents that will turn all metal over time. We have seen polymers form on Rhodium and platinum that diminished their brightness over time due to the aforementioned reasons. Rhodium is used as a medical implant coating due to its ability to resist tarnishing and reaction to human chemistry.


<b>There is just NO way at the price we pay for kits we are gona get the top end platings again IMHO and we should expect in things like Rose Gold to have some tarnish problems with storage and even wear !! The kits would most likely have to tripple in price or MORE ot get the really good stuff actually plated by the swiss !</b>

In this case you are getting a high end rose gold plating using Swiss rose gold chemistry that is the original Volk rose gold first patented in 1957 (U.S. patent 2,812,299). It provides a homogenous and uniform layer of rose gold where the copper and gold are atomically blended to provide good color and durability. Coatings for writing instruments are "trophy grade" in brightness and thickness. It is identical in formula to what was used on Rose gold plated Swiss watches, except it is and cannot be as thick. Its ability to resist tarnish is no better or no worse than those products. We have used this formula to provide quality rose gold plating to museums, private collectors and on Swiss watch restorations. The main difference is the thickness of the rose gold plating relative to quality. As far as we know we are the only company still using this process in the U.S.


<b>Omega got caught a while back not telling there customers there bracelets were being made and shipped from CHINA ON Swiss Made watches so I doubt Berea actually knows were the guy he is partners with in the far east is getting the plating done ! But being he is in the far east I have a good guess.</b>

This seems a bit ethnocentric and clearly is unfair. There are numerous high quality platers in Asia pacific region. Guess what, they are using the same plating chemistry world wide from a small group of chemical suppliers. Omega follows the Federal Trade commissions (FTC) requirements and I doubt this has any truth to it. I know exactly where Berea is getting the rose gold plating done and the quality methods that are used.


<b>SO IMO there is NO pen kit I know of that is really Swiss Rose Gold plated IN Switzerland IN MY personal opinion maybe the method BUT the labor costs in Switzerland are just WAY to HI..</b>

I hate to break the bad news to everyone, but the Swiss were not the only people who could provide quality plating. Firms in Germany, France Italy and even the US were providing high quality plating to the jewelry and watch trade also. In some cases the quality exceeded the Swiss, particularly in the gold plating of stainless steel watches (Germany). Quality gold plating has largely exited Europe in general and Switzerland in particular.


<b>As for rare method well hundreads a thousands a watches and jewerly specialy watches are Swiss Rose Gold plated or Swiss method plated everday... saying RARE is like saying a RED FORD Mustang is RARE but there is nothing IMHO RARE about Swiss Rose Gold plating ..</b>

This is not true. It is true that there is rose gold plating being done in the US and Asia, it is not true to suggest that they are using Swiss gold plating methods. Platers today are using acid based plating chemistry that provide rose gold that is not as homogenous and as uniform as the "Legacy" chemistries used by the Swiss and the Europeans. But bear in mind neither are the Swiss! In many cases rose gold plated items are covered with lacquer to keep them from oxidizing and to improve their durability.  So true Swiss rose gold plating is not common. The main reason is that these older plating methods used plating chemistries that are harder to control and require a high level of expertise by the plating team. 


Final thoughts and observations: All rose gold plating will tarnish over time. No exceptions. Solid Rose gold metal alloys are more resistant but will also color over time. Rose gold color nitrides are inert and will stay bright. They are not in wide use as of yet.

The good news is that the rose gold plating based on the Volk Swiss formula is durable and easily cleaned. A sprits of "glass plus" cleaner and a paper towel will restore the color back to its original state with no adverse affects on the rose gold. You won't hurt it so relax.

A couple oddities: Watches and belt buckles plated with rose gold plating actually stay brighter due to incidental burnishing and polishing from constant contact while being worn. Writing instruments and jewelry objects discolor quicker due to contact with perfumes, sun tan lotion, cologne and other cosmetic based chemistries. That is basic chemical and physics no matter the quality of the metal.

Fine plated jewelry should not be stored in leather, naugahide or vinyl. Wrap items in an undyed soft cloth prior to storage. If the items are fingerprinted or exposed to perfumes, remove them prior to encasing them in soft cloth.


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## Pipes

Well I did learn 2 things here ! 1 the pens are NOT Swiss Rose gold plated there done here in the USA using the Swiss Patent process so there NOT Swiss like I said and 2 Jim Don't keep up with the watch world the Omega thing is widely known in the watch world ! Having said that I agree with the storage thing and disagree politely with some other things ! BUt just some FYI for who ever ! A watch these days by Swiss law only has to be 50 % made of Swiss Parts and the inspection and final assembly and a few more things have to be done there  done in Switzerland ! Like everyone there cutting costs NOT all the companys but the ones most folks can afford are NOT all SWiss Made even if its stamped as such ! But this is a pen thread and I move on nuff said  

But Berea Makes IMHO some of if not the best kits and platings going in the pen world and I will be a cust like I said as long as your in Business Bill and AZ ....Iam Glad Berea is having the kits plated here in the USA ! It means american jobs and that my friend is a GREAT thing these days as an american IMHO !!!

as for the SWiss well you can by a SWiss Parts watch  put together in China ! a Swiss Movement made in Switzerland cased in China and you can buy a Swiss made watch from 50% to 100 % Swiss Made so Those of us in the watch world are really looking sideways at anything that says SWiss about it these days ! 

  My Main point of the whole thred was that IT was NOT Swiss Plateing !  I said it could be the process and was right  about that !!! He says he is using the Swiss process in the USA I would a bet my house it was NOT done in Switzerland and would a been right  who really cares who was right we all learned a few things in this little talk ...I for one would rather buy an American plated pen kit ! as an american !!! 2 thumbs up for Berea nuff said back to turnning pens ..By the way Berea has a NICE new web site easy to get around just can't order off it yet iam sure there working on that ! I order From BB at AZ anyway But a LOT of us have complained about Bereas site well its up to snuff now ! IMHO just the order qurik to be fixed now !


  just a FYI link below 


http://www.fhs.ch/en/swissm.php




http://affordablepipes.com/


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