# CA vs. Lacquer finish?



## NCTurner (Jan 3, 2005)

I was asked by Don Ward to post this picture on this forum. It shows 3 pens - the top two are finished with lacquer, and the bottom pen finished with CA.  The picture isn't the greatest, but it gives an idea of the gloss.  Purely looking at the pens, it's hard to tell the difference, as they are both very smooth and very, very glossy. However, the ones finished with lacquer have more of a 'plasticy' feel to them, I think.  Not a criticism per se, just an observation.  I'll try again to insert the picture here, but if that doesn't work, it is in my photo album.


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## NCTurner (Jan 3, 2005)

I also uploaded a picture to my album of a keychain I finished with lacquer, as well.  Once again I'll insert here, but I'm not having very good luck with these showing in this forum.





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## tipusnr (Jan 3, 2005)

Nice photos. Haven't truly tried either finish to be fair.  Used a version of the CA finish to try to tame some cedar but that's it.  Is this the water based lacquer that's been discussed? I do occasionally have a project that needs the high-gloss plasticized finish for ultimately protection and lacquer might be the way to go.


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## DCBluesman (Jan 3, 2005)

Great looking turnings with wonderful finishes.  I truly can't tell the difference between the CA and lacquer.  Thanks for sharing these, Greg.


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## Tom McMillan (Jan 3, 2005)

Very nice looking work Greg (as always)!!  How do you apply the lacquer??  What is your preference then---CA??


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## daledut (Jan 3, 2005)

The pens look real nice.

I too have used both lacquer and CA and have stuck with the CA because I can see very little difference in quality and durability, but the CA is much easier and quicker to apply.


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## NCTurner (Jan 4, 2005)

Thanks folks for the compliments!

Bill, no, this is Deft high gloss, spray.  I haven't used the water-based lacquer, but plan on doing so soon.  Just a matter of time......

Tom, as I mentioned, the lacquer is Deft high gloss spray.  I finish turn, sand to 600, apply a coat (or maybe two, depending) of sanding sealer, then remove the blanks from the mandrel, and place them on a 1/4" allthread.  I can do multiple blanks like this.  I then spray 3 or 4 coats, usually, slowly rotating the allthread by hand. Then I remount on the mandrel, rub LIGHTLY with 0000 wool (or sometimes with Fiberal fine grade), and finally buff with my Beall system, again, VERY lightly.  I do really like the very high gloss finish.  As far as preference? Not really sure....generally folks can't tell the difference.  I usually use lacquer on my pens that have more coves / beads / etc, as those are just so easy to sand through when finishing with CA.

Dale, personally, I think the lacquer is easier. I am so particular with my CA finishing, and really hate to see any flaws in it at all, so that means sometimes refinishing and refinishing!  Not that I'm not particular with my lacquer, but it's a heck of a lot easier to NOT sand through it!


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## C_Ludwigsen (Jan 4, 2005)

Greg, first of all - BEAUTIFUL work.

I have used both the Deft spray and brush on lacquer as well as CA finishes.  To conduct my own limited test, I made 2 pens about 4 months ago.  One for me finished with lacquer, and one for my wife finished with CA/BLO.  Both get heavy daily use.  Hers gets a bit more beating as it flows in the wilderness known as her purse (just kidding ladies).  Mine gets more exposure to skin and oils as I write constantly with it and wear it clipped between the buttons on a polo type shirt.

My short-term observations.
1. Both are excellent finishes.
2. The lacquer is showing one small wear spot where my index finger rests while writing.
3. The CA sure takes a beating and doesn't have a mark on it (again nothing personal to those with purses that mysteriously hold vast quantities of important items).
4. The spray lacquer requires a good set of goggles if you where glasses!!! If necessary I'll explain.
5. The lacquer (spray and brushed) is better suited to items with beads coves and curved shapes.

My sort-of conclusions.  I think I'll stay with the CA/BLO for traditional shaped pens.  I'm getting quicker at it, the Doc tells me that isn't what I'm allergic to, and it sure does last.  I'll stick to lacquer on things like the bottle stoppers and other items with plenty of details.  I'll probably stick with Tung-Oil, Boiled Linseed Oil, and other types of finshes for most bowls - finished with a paste wax.

Hope that is somewhat helpful and constructive.


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## RussFairfield (Jan 4, 2005)

Chuck, you are experiencing the "facts of life" of finishes. 

On a scale where the hardness of the finish is measured by the hardest pencil lead that will not scratch the surface, the nitro-Cellulose lacquer (Deft) is about a 2H when it is fresh to no more than a 3H when it has aged. The CA-glue is a hard plastic that falls into the range of a 7H pencil lead.

Waterborne lacquer is much harder than a nitro-cellulose and will be in same 7H range as the CA glue when it has cured. Some folks are already discovering this fact.


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## Guest (Jan 4, 2005)

NC said
"However, the ones finished with lacquer have more of a 'plasticy' feel to them, I think. Not a criticism per se, just an observation.  "

That's surprising.
It is hard to imagine how anything could feel more "plasticy" than a CA finish.
Personally I don't find that feeling offensive.
I imagine it depends how thick the finish is.
I have finished some pens where the CA was not unlike one of those bar tops with coins embedded in them.You could see the underlying wood but you knew you weren't touching it.I have also done a finish with Mylands sealer and high build polish/Carnaubawax that I was hard pressed to tell the difference between it and CA.
As far as the hardness thing goes.
I remember the first time I tried to refinish a CA pen that had a "ghost" in it.
The pen had ben finished for a couple of weeks and I kept putting off redoing it.
I had an extremely hard time trying to "skew" the finish off.
I wound up hitting it with 100 grit sand paper just so the skew could get a bite.
I am not surprised by the results of "wear" tests that show little damage done to a CA pen over time.
As far as applying a lacquer finish being more difficult than CA, I wish that were true in my case.
I consider the Mylands system I am using now a lacquer finish and the
method is much simpler and more repeatable than CA.
The first pen I ever did was with CA and have used it more than any other method.It is still an adventure to see how the finish will"turn" out.[8D]


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## Scott (Jan 4, 2005)

Hi Greg,

Nice work!

I've been using spray lacquer on the canes I've been turning the past month or two.  It is easy.  And I know what you mean by feeling more plasticy.  Tell us a little bit more about your process in applying the lacquer to your pens!

Scott.


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## NCTurner (Jan 4, 2005)

Scott and Chuck,
Thanks for the compliments!

Scott, I'm not sure what isn't clear, but I'll try to elaborate a bit more. 

finish turn, sand to 600

apply a coat (or maybe two, depending) of sanding sealer

remove the blanks from the mandrel, and place them on a 1/4" allthread (or just about any dowel or whatever) I can do multiple blanks like this. 

spray 3 or 4 coats, usually, slowly rotating the allthread by hand. 

remount on the mandrel, rub LIGHTLY with 0000 wool (or sometimes with Fiberal fine grade). Note: if you do this step with the lathe running (which I do), be SURE and use a small piece of wool/fiberal and hold it so it'll slip out of your hand just in case it catches. If there is too much debris, I'll first use 600 grit paper to just lightly remove that.

finally buff with my Beall system, again, VERY lightly. I do this while on the mandrel, or by placing them again on the allthread and using nuts / bushings to hold the blanks tight on the allthread. I do use the tripoli and white diamond wheels. Again, the key is lightly. Also, I let the lacquer set for at LEAST a day, or more often, several days. If the lacquer isn't 100% cured, it is very easy to ruin the lacquer on the buffing wheels.

I hope this helps...let me know if you still have questions!


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## C_Ludwigsen (Jan 4, 2005)

Thank you Russ!  That Pencil Lead Hardness scale is something my mind can appreciate.  And you have just given me the necessary bit of knowledge to convey to my wallet that it needs to get the WB lacquer.  I did not previously realize it cured harder.  I thought the main advantage was environmental and health safety.

Could I ask a favor, could you post -- or send me and I'll format it and post -- your hardness scale starting from say an oil finish through friction polish and lacquer to CA???  I would like to put it in a table with these elements and make it a Sticky reference post for this forum...


Description<br />
Hardness<br />
Rating (1-10)<br />
Pros<br />
Cons<br />
General comments<br />

If there is interest, I will start a discussion thread for each finish type you indicate and have everyone contribute their pros/cons/etc.  My hope is to also glean through this forum and retrieve a good bit of this data.

Chuck


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## RussFairfield (Jan 4, 2005)

The following website is an article on the "Pencil Hardness Test" that was published in 2000. 

http://www.macsimmons.com/PencilHardness.html

The hardness numbers listed in the table are 2 to 3 numbers softer than what I have noted for similar finishes in my shop. It may be from a difference in the pencil leads, or a difference in the definition of what constitutes a scratch. There is some room for interpretation here. And, there are variations between similar finishes from different manufacturers. An example is that I have found the waterborne lacquer to be more than the single number harder than the nitro-cellulose as shown in the article. 

The important thing is not the absolute value of the numbers, but the relative ranking of the finishes.


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## NCTurner (Jan 5, 2005)

Here is a pen I finished with CA over 14 months ago, best I can remember. It's been in very active use all this time.  You can somewhat judge what the CA finish still looks like. It does show some scuff marks, but I think it's held up very well....far better than the plating has!  And certainly better than some of the "expensive" pens I've carried with me!



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## Gregory Huey (Jan 5, 2005)

I use a combo of both BLO/CA and High gloss Lacquer in that order.


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