# Drilling Problem



## texasfootball21 (Nov 28, 2008)

So I was cutting and drilling antler today in the shop. I cut a piece of whitetail for a Jr. Gent and drilled a hold for the pen body using a 10.5 mm bit. The hole is horrible! It is much to large at one end and I suppose the bit was very unsteady while I was boring. The drill bit I use is a terrible tabletop Ryobi.

The problem is that this antler is being used in a commissioned order with the clients antler and I have very little left. 

Is there a way to salvage the pen? I mean the CA glue may not hold the tube in the hole.

Thanks.


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## LostintheWoods (Nov 28, 2008)

Use 5-minute or 30-minute epoxy instead.....its more gap-filling than even thick CA.


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## Rifleman1776 (Nov 28, 2008)

Without having watched you, it will be hard to give advice. How could your bit have been unsteady at the top, or either end for that matter? Didn't you have it securely fastened in the chuck? From what you describe, the antler is now worthless. You need to get some more and start over. Tell us more about how you drilled.


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## VisExp (Nov 28, 2008)

You could try using epoxy.  It will fill voids better than CA.  Before you do that though, hold the bushing against the hole and check that the diameter of the hole is not larger than the finished diameter of the barrel.


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## Daniel (Nov 28, 2008)

Joseph, I just made two Jr. Gent's and noticed that one of the holes bored left the tube a little loose for my liking and that was drilling it with no problem. I cannot recall at this time if it was the 10.5mm hole or not but I think so. It was no problem for me I just glued it in with Gorilla glue which expands and helps fill the gap. the one thing I did have to do was watch it pretty close for the first couple of hours and keep the tube as centered as I could. It did not need to be perfect. Luckily you have a decent amount of wall material in the Jr. Gent so you can get away with some pretty fair boo boos. to make sure the gap is not to much stick the tube in the blank and place the bushing in it make sure the bushing reaches to wood all the way around. if it does you are good just use the gorilla glue.


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## thewishman (Nov 28, 2008)

I feel your pain, antler can be a booger to drill. If your gap looks too large, try adding some antler dust (not quite like pixie dust...) in the gap. I've fixed some dings with antler dust and CA.

Good luck! Commission jobs can be hard on the nerves.


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## texasfootball21 (Nov 28, 2008)

thewishman said:


> I feel your pain, antler can be a booger to drill. If your gap looks too large, try adding some antler dust (not quite like pixie dust...) in the gap. I've fixed some dings with antler dust and CA.
> 
> Good luck! Commission jobs can be hard on the nerves.



Thanks, might try this or some of the other glues mentioned.

I'm starting to think I should stick to making pens then selling them, instead of the the other way around, these commissioned jobs are killers, especially when everything the customer seems to want is out of stock or I just don't have time and there is a date the pen needs to be done by.

Thanks again, more tips welcome.


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## BRobbins629 (Nov 28, 2008)

If you don't do this already, it is a whole lot easier to drill antler if you first turn it round between centers.  You can then drill it on the lathe with improved accuracy. Maybe too late for this one, but this is by far the best way to drill antler.


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## texasfootball21 (Nov 29, 2008)

VisExp said:


> You could try using epoxy.  It will fill voids better than CA.  Before you do that though, hold the bushing against the hole and check that the diameter of the hole is not larger than the finished diameter of the barrel.



I checked with the bushings and the hole is right on them. I mean, it will be cutting it close, but what choice do I have? This is not a material I have more of. I will have to be extremely careful to the the tube centered and not cut more then I have to.

Anyone have any more tips?


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## Daniel (Nov 29, 2008)

Sent you a PM with several more suggestions.


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## nava1uni (Nov 29, 2008)

Mix antler dust with CA and glue the hole with the tube. Hold it in place until it is securely dried and centered.  Use very sharp tools and take very light cuts. Keep checking it with micrometer to ensure that you don't turn it down too much.  It sound likes you were in the marrow part of the antler and it is much soft and can easily be bored larger due to the less dense matrix material and the bit just broke it apart rather then drilling through a dense surface.


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## Randy_ (Nov 29, 2008)

Another thing that comes to mind is filling the drilled hole completely with epoxy or resin or whatever and de-drilling the hole.
 
Before you re-drill, however, you need to review your drilling technique to figure out why you had the problem.  What kind of vise were you using to hold the antler?  I have a $59 Chinese bench-top DP that I bought from Wal-Mart before I even knew about crafting pens and it works just fine.  (I later bought a bigger DP to have a longer throw.)
 
You are much closer to the problem than we are; but I'm not sure that the little Ryobi DP is necessarily the problem.


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## TellicoTurning (Nov 29, 2008)

Randy is right, if you aren't holding the antler rock steady when you start the drill, it really won't make any difference what kind of DP you are using... mine is a desk top from HF and over the years have done lots of antler... if it wobbles in your vice or holding device, you can get an oblong hole or oversized one.


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## rherrell (Nov 29, 2008)

I don't know your method for drilling but I would start there. Click on this link and then select "Antler Tutorial".
This method works very well. http://tinyurl.com/23jlfs


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## Rifleman1776 (Nov 29, 2008)

ozmandus said:


> Randy is right, if you aren't holding the antler rock steady when you start the drill, it really won't make any difference what kind of DP you are using... mine is a desk top from HF and over the years have done lots of antler... if it wobbles in your vice or holding device, you can get an oblong hole or oversized one.



Chuck, you are right. There are too many unanswered questions in his post about drilling technique. I believe without that information it will be impossible to give him specific instructions on how to improve his drilling. Or how to save this blank.


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## texasfootball21 (Nov 29, 2008)

Randy_ said:


> Another thing that comes to mind is filling the drilled hole completely with epoxy or resin or whatever and de-drilling the hole.
> 
> Before you re-drill, however, you need to review your drilling technique to figure out why you had the problem.  What kind of vise were you using to hold the antler?  I have a $59 Chinese bench-top DP that I bought from Wal-Mart before I even knew about crafting pens and it works just fine.  (I later bought a bigger DP to have a longer throw.)
> 
> You are much closer to the problem than we are; but I'm not sure that the little Ryobi DP is necessarily the problem.



The vise I use is the small one included with the drill. When I go to press down on the antler, I notice that the table gives a little bit, could this be it? I also think that the small and weak vise might just not be holding the antler like it should.

Another problem, as stated above, may have originated from the marrow. This is the first white tail I've crafted, I've only done axis until now.

What vise do you guys suggest? Sorry I know I'm not giving sufficient information to fix the problem, what all do you guys need to know?

Thanks for the tips. I might try to glue with a very slow curing epoxy or CA mixed with antler shaving.

Thanks again guys and any more tips are appreciated. Please let me know what more information you guys need.


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## monkeynutz (Nov 29, 2008)

You simply cannot afford any play in the table or the vise, nor any runout in the bit or the drill.  It can be magnified, and almost always will result in a wallowed-out or irregular bore, particularly in a material such as antler, where densities often run the gamut and are layered.  If you are going to be doing much of this, then you should probably tool up.


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## hunter-27 (Nov 29, 2008)

PM me your address and I'll send you some more pieces, how much do you need to get your order done?  Let me know what sizes of pieces as well.


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## TellicoTurning (Nov 29, 2008)

Rifleman1776 said:


> Chuck, you are right. There are too many unanswered questions in his post about drilling technique. I believe without that information it will be impossible to give him specific instructions on how to improve his drilling. Or how to save this blank.



Frank,
I've not found anyway to really successfully use a vice for antler... most of the time I just hold mine on a 1 x board with a pair of slip-joint pliers... I cut the antler a little overlength so if I do wobble a bit, it's usually only in the first little bit of the hole and I can cut it away.

My biggest failures comes from drilling through the sides of the antler... I do lose about 20% of my antler doing it this way.


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## Rifleman1776 (Nov 29, 2008)

ozmandus said:


> Frank,
> I've not found anyway to really successfully use a vice for antler... most of the time I just hold mine on a 1 x board with a pair of slip-joint pliers... I cut the antler a little overlength so if I do wobble a bit, it's usually only in the first little bit of the hole and I can cut it away.
> 
> My biggest failures comes from drilling through the sides of the antler... I do lose about 20% of my antler doing it this way.



Very generous of hunter27 to send you more antler.
IMHO, your biggest mistake was in taking a commission order that you could not guarantee you could complete. e.g. I was once asked to make a real elephant ivory pen but declined. That material has a reputation for blowing up on the lathe and I have no experience with it. Too risky and I neither could guarantee a finished product nor did I want to risk eating the, very expensive, loss.
I use a machinists XY type vice and am able to clamp the antler in it. Like you, and many others, coming out the side is the most common failing.


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## texasfootball21 (Nov 29, 2008)

Rifleman1776 said:


> Very generous of hunter27 to send you more antler.



Yes it was an extremely kind offer.


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## texasfootball21 (Nov 29, 2008)

I just glued the tube with some thick epoxy. Ran into the problem a few more times today, though not as severe. I really need to take a step back and examine my drilling process. Filled all the holes with thick epoxy.

Only time will tell if it works.

Thanks.


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## marcruby (Nov 29, 2008)

Daniel;

There's a caveat that comes with gorilla glue and it's relatives.  It doesn't expand, it foams.  And the foam has very little structural strength.  This isn't important when the join is tight, but in a situation where the join is loose and depends on the foam, it's perfectly possible that the tube will loosen some day.  

I know Epoxy is messy, but I think it's the best for this kind of job.

Marc



Daniel said:


> Joseph, I just made two Jr. Gent's and noticed that one of the holes bored left the tube a little loose for my liking and that was drilling it with no problem. I cannot recall at this time if it was the 10.5mm hole or not but I think so. It was no problem for me I just glued it in with Gorilla glue which expands and helps fill the gap. the one thing I did have to do was watch it pretty close for the first couple of hours and keep the tube as centered as I could. It did not need to be perfect. Luckily you have a decent amount of wall material in the Jr. Gent so you can get away with some pretty fair boo boos. to make sure the gap is not to much stick the tube in the blank and place the bushing in it make sure the bushing reaches to wood all the way around. if it does you are good just use the gorilla glue.


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## texasfootball21 (Nov 29, 2008)

marcruby said:


> Daniel;
> 
> There's a caveat that comes with gorilla glue and it's relatives.  It doesn't expand, it foams.  And the foam has very little structural strength.  This isn't important when the join is tight, but in a situation where the join is loose and depends on the foam, it's perfectly possible that the tube will loosen some day.
> 
> ...



This is what I was afraid of, the foam cracking after much use.

The epoxy was very messy, if it ends up working, it will have been worth it.


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## Daniel (Nov 29, 2008)

I have had instances where Gorilla glue was dripped on wood. after drying and foaming. it tore out wood when I tried to remove it. I think even the foam is plenty strong enough. of course it is all a matter of opinion and preference anyway.


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## leehljp (Nov 29, 2008)

Daniel said:


> I have had instances where Gorilla glue was dripped on wood. after drying and foaming. it tore out wood when I tried to remove it. I think even the foam is plenty strong enough. of course it is all a matter of opinion and preference anyway.



My experiences with "foam" glue has been the same as Daniel's. It does not have the strength in all circumstances as epoxies. In loose chair or furniture joints, yes, Gorilla glue might be a bad choice. Pen blanks and tubes not subjected to the same kind of force that furniture joints are, IMHO.


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## Daniel (Nov 29, 2008)

Actually there are some tests that can be done to determine glue coverage bonding on various materials etc. I sort of surprised non of them have been done for gluing blanks.
one that comes to mind would be the same as what I had to do to be passed in pipe sweating. Now I admit there is a lot more to sweating a pipe than there is gluing a blank but the basic idea is still the same. I had to sweat about 20 fittings. they where then cut in half and pounded with a hammer to break the bond. they where then inspected for voids or other signs they would leak. you could do the same thing with pen blanks even if you just made up a bunch of short ones. I have been able to see the coverage of epoxy through some acrylic blanks and was not happy at all. I have also had tubes break free while trimming the barrel or turning that where glued with epoxy. looking at the tubes the epoxy was full of voids and air pockets. I finally gave up on epoxy and seldom use it for gluing blanks. when I do i am very careful about getting as good a coating in the blank a possible. I still am not that confident that the coverage is very good.


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## texasfootball21 (Nov 29, 2008)

Daniel said:


> Actually there are some tests that can be done to determine glue coverage bonding on various materials etc. I sort of surprised non of them have been done for gluing blanks.
> one that comes to mind would be the same as what I had to do to be passed in pipe sweating. Now I admit there is a lot more to sweating a pipe than there is gluing a blank but the basic idea is still the same. I had to sweat about 20 fittings. they where then cut in half and pounded with a hammer to break the bond. they where then inspected for voids or other signs they would leak. you could do the same thing with pen blanks even if you just made up a bunch of short ones. I have been able to see the coverage of epoxy through some acrylic blanks and was not happy at all. I have also had tubes break free while trimming the barrel or turning that where glued with epoxy. looking at the tubes the epoxy was full of voids and air pockets. I finally gave up on epoxy and seldom use it for gluing blanks. when I do i am very careful about getting as good a coating in the blank a possible. I still am not that confident that the coverage is very good.



Well too late now.

Hopefully it works out alright.

Thanks for all the help guys.


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## TellicoTurning (Nov 29, 2008)

Rifleman1776 said:


> Very generous of hunter27 to send you more antler.
> IMHO, your biggest mistake was in taking a commission order that you could not guarantee you could complete. e.g. I was once asked to make a real elephant ivory pen but declined. That material has a reputation for blowing up on the lathe and I have no experience with it. Too risky and I neither could guarantee a finished product nor did I want to risk eating the, very expensive, loss.
> I use a machinists XY type vice and am able to clamp the antler in it. Like you, and many others, coming out the side is the most common failing.



I don't get my antler from hunters, nor do I do commissions in antler... I buy my antler from a guy in Texas that has a game farm... most of the time it's axis deer, but I think he has other stuff as well.  Haven't picked any up since I left Texas in 2005, and I'm nearly out of what I did have.


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## leehljp (Nov 29, 2008)

Daniel said:


> . . . I have also had tubes break free while trimming the barrel or turning that where glued with epoxy. looking at the tubes the epoxy was full of voids and air pockets. I finally gave up on epoxy and seldom use it for gluing blanks. when I do i am very careful about getting as good a coating in the blank a possible. I still am not that confident that the coverage is very good.



Since I make pens primarily as my work stress relief exercise, :wink: I am not in a hurry to get one done. IF I don't like the way a blank looks after getting it to size, I will turn it down to the tube. I do about 1 in 8 to 1 in 10 this way. I used to be surprised at the amount of air pockets with 5 min or 30 min epoxy. I don't use CA on tubes because I had several of these come loose over the course of a few months.

Gorilla glue is very hard to find here so I don't get to use it, but the foaming aspect intrigues me because of the uniformity in which it expands into voids.


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## monkeynutz (Dec 1, 2008)

leehljp said:


> Gorilla glue is very hard to find here so I don't get to use it...


They don't have broken gorillas in Japan? :wink:


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## texasfootball21 (Dec 15, 2008)

Hey guys,

Just thought I'd let you know that I finished up the order, and everything turned out great. Some of my best pens. I ended up throwing out all the badly drilled pieces and got away with just enough antler to finish.

Thanks for all the help!


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## marcruby (Dec 15, 2008)

I have a feeling you are about to learn how to do a segmented pen.  That's not a bad thing, just a bit spooky if you've never done it before.  The results can be surprisingly cool.  Using half hour or longer epoxy and add enough white/yellow acrylic paint to kind of match the bone will help.

Then throw out those old drill bits and by a set from Dan.

Marc


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## jaeger (Jan 15, 2009)

ozmandus said:


> Frank,
> I've not found anyway to really successfully use a vice for antler... most of the time I just hold mine on a 1 x board with a pair of slip-joint pliers... I cut the antler a little overlength so if I do wobble a bit, it's usually only in the first little bit of the hole and I can cut it away.
> 
> My biggest failures comes from drilling through the sides of the antler... I do lose about 20% of my antler doing it this way.


 
ozmandus,
This is my first post here!!!:biggrin:
I have been making pens for about 2 weeks now. I've made about 12 pens so far. (I may be new but I'm "All In". )
Today I made my first antler pen. When I drilled it yesterday, I kind of blew out the side but I was able to salvage the blank by using it for the top of a slimline and "shortening" it up a tad. This gave me enough of the blank to fit the bushing. I have been thinking about this ever since the blow out and here is what I came up with for a quick accurate fix on future antler blanks. It worked great on the next two blanks that I drilled  tonight.
I drove a nail through a board. I took the undrilled blank and made an indention on the bottom of the blank where I wanted the drill bit to exit. 
Next I put the board with the nail under my drill press table and lined up the drill bit with where the nail tip protruded just above the dp table. Clamp with small clamps. Next I took my blank and put the indention I made and put this on the tip of the nail. I drilled about 2/3 the length of the blank, stopped and disassembled this contaption and put a backer board on the dp table and finished the hole that I had already started, wah lah, the exit hole right on the money. I used another small clamp to hold the blank as I drilled, just as you used a pliers.
Hope this makes sense and helps someone save some antler blanks.


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## Randy_ (Jan 15, 2009)

That makes perfect sense and is a very clever idea!!  Sometimes the simplest ideas are the best solutions.
 
What an outstanding suggestion for your very first post!!  I'm looking forward to hearing more of your ideas.:bananen_smilies046:


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## Gordon (Jan 15, 2009)

Jaeger

Very clever - I tried your drilling method - and worked as advertised.

Thank you 

Gordon


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## Daniel (Jan 15, 2009)

Jaeger, This is exactly why I like to see all the new people coming around. Sometimes it just takes seeing the problem for the first time to see a better answer. I will definitely be borrowing this one.


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## mick (Jan 15, 2009)

Daniel said:


> Joseph, I just made two Jr. Gent's and noticed that one of the holes bored left the tube a little loose for my liking and that was drilling it with no problem. I cannot recall at this time if it was the 10.5mm hole or not but I think so. It was no problem for me I just glued it in with Gorilla glue which expands and helps fill the gap. the one thing I did have to do was watch it pretty close for the first couple of hours and keep the tube as centered as I could. It did not need to be perfect. Luckily you have a decent amount of wall material in the Jr. Gent so you can get away with some pretty fair boo boos. to make sure the gap is not to much stick the tube in the blank and place the bushing in it make sure the bushing reaches to wood all the way around. if it does you are good just use the gorilla glue.


 
I make a lot of Jr's and use 12.5 mm for the cap and a 10.5mm for the body. CSUSA changed their instructions in just the past year I think. They used to list a 27/64 bit for the body, which was way too big! The 10.5 is still a slightly larger hole than I'm comfortable with but going down in size doesn't leave enough room for a suffiant amount of glue. 

As someone mentioned above IMHO it's best to turn antler round and then drill on the lathe...more control of the hole that way and you can also round it up a little off center to take ayvantage of any bark on the outside of the blank. Before I started doing this I turned way too many that came out just plain white...no character.


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