# Berea "petition" -- the Churchill/Grande issues



## redfishsc

*Berea "petition" -- the Churchill/Grande issues*

*****2nd edit******

For those who haven't seen this thread, just know that the problem has been solved for the most part IF you buy kits that specifically state that they come with the metal couplers. I know that you can get them from www.beartoothwoods.com. I have not seen the new metal couplers yet but this should take care of the issue. I have bought a lot of stuff from Ernie in the past and he's a great guy to work with. Ernie has the El Grande, Churchill, and Cambridge available.

Anthony from Penworks (look up Penworks in our member list, you'll find him) has told us that he also has Churchills on the way in, and I'm hoping he doesn't mind me mentioning it. I have also done business with Anthony and he's top notch, trust me.

Just to re-iterate: if you are not sure if your pen is coming with a metal nib coupler, you better contact your supplier and ASK THEM because to my knowledge these guys are the only two that are offering it.

Thanks!! 
Matt



**** first edit****
--- Please don't misunderstand this post as an intent to scare folks away from using the Churchill/El Grande kits-- they are very nice kits and I want to sell them SO BADLY but they have what many consider a "defect" or flaw that needs to be addressed, in my opinion&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;

A few folks have pointed out to me, rightly, that I'm a bit hard nosed at our suppliers. If they make a kit with a serious flaw, I simply refuse to buy it and warn others about it--- that's probably not the best way to do it. 

 I've already talked at length with CSA about a few problems I've had with some of their kits. 

I have not talked to Berea, and there are a LOT of folks on here who are disappointed in the nib couplers breaking on the Churchill/El Grande. I have had several break, two of them being my personal pens. 

Both of these pens are superb products and feel great in the hand. 

The problem is that they break too easily where the nib coupler inserts into the long tube blank. Mine broke when writing! 

The plastic on the insert is too brittle for me to trust and I will not make and sell them unless this is corrected. I would prefer a metal coupler, but I'm sure there are other ways to go about it.

I am hoping that enough of us here post a reply stating their disapproval of the current design that Berea would notice and respond. Please post your comments and suggestions. I will email them with the link and ask them for a reply. 

The truth it there is an issue that happens with a lot of these kits and we believe the kits could be improved and made more durable.


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## its_virgil

Call Jim Heusinger, the Pres. of BHW, and discuss the problem with him. He has always been willing to listen when I've called him to discuss similar topics. 
do a good turn daily!
Don


> _Originally posted by redfishsc_
> 
> A few folks have pointed out to me, rightly, that I'm a bit hard nosed at our suppliers. If they make a kit with a serious flaw, I simply refuse to buy it and warn others about it--- that's probably not the best way to do it.
> 
> I've already talked at length with CSA about a few problems I've had with some of their kits.
> 
> I have not talked to Berea, and there are a LOT of folks on here who are disappointed in the nib couplers breaking on the Churchill/El Grande. I have had several break, two of them being my personal pens.
> 
> Both of these pens are superb products and feel great in the hand.
> 
> The problem is that they break too easily where the nib coupler inserts into the long tube blank. Mine broke when writing!
> 
> The plastic on the insert is too brittle for me to trust and I will not make and sell them unless this is corrected. I would prefer a metal coupler, but I'm sure there are other ways to go about it.
> 
> I am hoping that enough of us here post a reply stating their disapproval of the current design that Berea would notice and respond. Please post your comments and suggestions. I will email them with the link and ask them for a reply.
> 
> The truth it there is an issue that happens with a lot of these kits and we believe the kits could be improved and made more durable.


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## bitshird

Matt, I've done close to a dozen assorted Churchill's and El Grande's My two daily users are a baron fountain pen, and a Trustone Ivory Churchill Roller Ball.
 I've not had any problems as yet, probably because of two factors, the first being I haven't sold any of them, and I am very careful with my Churchill.
 The reason being the horror stories I've read here from so many folks who are far more experienced pen craftsmen and ladies than my self.
 I would really hate it if a pen I sold for say 75.00 to 125.00 were to break within a short time , one it would do no good thing for my reputation, and two it would really raise my blood pressure to a dangerous level.
 Having had a triple bypass 7 years ago and several stents a month and a half ago, this is a problem I would rather avoid; Like you, I enjoy the way the pen feels and the new El Grande Elites are beautiful pens, one in particular is about to become my new daily fountain pen.
 I, while not having had any problems would like to avoid them in the future if possible.


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## tbroye

I have 3 Churchill roller ball kits.  I have built one, I was going to try and sell it,but will hold off for now and start using it.  The other 2 kits will stay unbuilt for now and see what happens to the complaints.  I know I wasn't to thrilled at not being able to post the cap without  damaging the black plastic end.  The one I did was the Steriling Siver Churchill and I love the way it looks. It seems the few cents it would take to make the part out of metal would be the right way to go on $15 kit.

Tom


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## Modelmaker

Here I thought it was just my heavy hand. I had an El Grande Fountain Pen do this to me.


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## redfishsc

> _Originally posted by its_virgil_
> 
> Call Jim Heusinger, the Pres. of BHW, and discuss the problem with him. He has always been willing to listen when I've called him to discuss similar topics.
> do a good turn daily!




From what I recall, some folks already have done this, and what I'd like to do is call him and refer him to this particular thread. If he sees that some of his more serious clients want to see some change, we stand a chance of seeing a change. Safety and power in numbers. That's how a democracy [is supposed to] work.


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## karlkuehn

I've only turned one Churchill out of all the kits that I've bought. That whole kit is dicey to begin with, what with the giant tubes and thin material. It's hard enough to get the kit built right without having to worry about something as stupid as the kit components breaking. 

It's a wonderful pen, but I've kinda put a stop on purchasing any more of them until I have the knowledge and tools to replace that crufty nib holder with something home-made and a little tougher. Hopefully they'll catch a clue and build something real so we can sell it in confidence sometime soon. Until then, put me on the list of petitioners for a little more QA on the components.

I agree, though, the 'feel' of the pen is really nice, but I'm afraid to use the darned thing. [B)]


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## Firefyter-emt

Well, I have had a few of these break and it is one of the best looking pens out there too.  I love the way the look and it is the only fountain pen with a "proper" section. (IMHO) The super simple fix to make that insert, or better yet, the whole press in coupler from metal would make this a great kit. Well, that and I wish the washer for the clip fit the opening cut for it. This slack allows the clip to slide sideways a bit and is poor in the fit and finish.


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## 1080Wayne

Interesting .  I`ve never had the problem you describe , but also haven`t made any for a while because of cracking of the finial . Am I the only one with that problem ?   WAyne


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## Ligget

I have had two pens break (Churchill rollerballs), luckily they were both pens I had given to relatives. It would be terrible if a customer had paid good money for one only for it to break soon after.[:0]

Until the problem part is rectified I simply refuse to purchase any more Churchill, El Grande or Cambridge kits. It really is a shame as I like all of these styles.

As there are at present approx 5384 IAP members and a large number of the general public who regularly read these threads it must be having some effect on sales of these kits.


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## Buzz

Same story here.  I've broken a couple myself, only by dropping them a very short distance.  I've also had one come back to me from a paying customer for repair.  I wonder though how many of these pens that I have sold have also broken, and I am unaware of it.  Many people might just write it off to experience and blame themselves for buying pens from a "crafts" person.  If this later scenario is the case, the pen is doing us all a disservice.

As others have said, the style is my favourite too, its a beautiful design.


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## Draconias

I have an El Grande I made a while back that I use at work.  I have not had any problems with it (yet).  It was a pain to make, I could not find a 33/64 drill bit and had to ream out the blank after drilling it to 1/2.  I have purchased a Cambridge kit (an upgrade for myself) and still was not able to find a 33/64 bit.  I will be extra careful with both my Le Grande and Cambridge and will hold off on buying any more of these style pens until they change the design and find a 33/64 bit, lol.


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## LanceD

Mark me down at having 3 Churchills break on me at the exact same spots. All were my own pens. I have since sold all of my Churchill kits and won't be making anymore. Sad to say because they are great looking kits.


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## Jarheaded

I have 3 dozen kits sitting here and maybe a dozen pens out in the stores. After reading this I am going to ask the owners to pull the pens until I can replace them with something else. I haven't had any problems yet, but the odds don't seem to be in my favor. Hopefully the pens that were sold will not have problems, but if they do,they will be replaced instead of repaired. You can add me to the petition.


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## gerryr

I've had two returned from customers because they broke.  One of them was very possibly my fault, the other could have been the customer tightening the cap too much.  Getting people to complain here, IMHO, will not go any good, at least based on my experience.  I called Berea once to complain about several serious design flaws with the roundtop Euro rollerball/fountain pen.  I was told it was their best seller and I was the first person to ever complain about it.


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## marcruby

CSUSA has 33/64th's brad point bits.  http://www.woodturnerscatalog.com/store/Accessories___33_64_Drill_Bit___drill_195_0964?Args=  For some reason I have two of them and I don't know what pens I used them for!!

Marc



> _Originally posted by Draconias_
> 
> ... I could not find a 33/64 drill bit and had to ream out the blank after drilling it to 1/2.  I have purchased a Cambridge kit (an upgrade for myself) and still was not able to find a 33/64 bit...


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## redfishsc

> _Originally posted by gerryr_
> 
> Getting people to complain here, IMHO, will not go any good, at least based on my experience.  I called Berea once to complain about several serious design flaws with the roundtop Euro rollerball/fountain pen.  I was told it was their best seller and I was the first person to ever complain about it.




That's the exact reason for the post-- so they can't say that I'm the only one having the problem. There are a lot of us who are, and I will direct them to this thread for that exact purpose.

If it does some good, great, we all benefit. 

If it does not do any good, it's only a testament to their philosophy of customer service.


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## Draken

I had one break (a customer's), BH sent me a replacement part at no cost.  I am, however, reluctant to make any more of this style, which I have several of in my shop.


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## doddman70

you can add me to the list also out of 6 kits i have had 2 failures


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## schaf

Two Churchills , of about ten that I have made, have broken very early in life. Not kean to purchase any more Churchill's.


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## Texatdurango

Since some of you are obviously not going to make any more El Grande kits, rather than just let the kits lie around your shop collecting dust, let me know what you want for them, I use the nibs and couplers in my modified pens.  So turn your trash into cash and send me a PM letting me know what you have and what you want for them.  I might even consider some Churchill kits because they have decent clips as well.


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## Ligget

> _Originally posted by Texatdurango_
> 
> Since some of you are obviously not going to make any more El Grande kits, rather than just let the kits lie around your shop collecting dust, let me know what you want for them, I use the nibs and couplers in my modified pens.  So turn your trash into cash and send me a PM letting me know what you have and what you want for them.  I might even consider some Churchill kits because they have decent clips as well.



I love these kits so much I am keeping mine until the weak part is upgraded, then I will use the kits again and also replace the part in the dozen Churchills I have made but not sold or gave away due to this problem.


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## gwilki

Darn you, George. You beat me to it.


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## bgray

I went back to my books to check my statistics.

Since October, I've sold over 200 pens based on this nib coupler.

I've had about 1 per month returned for this reason.

This is also the only reason that someone has returned a pen.

So that's roughly less than 4%.

Considering that it's a very easy repair, I have no problem with this, and I've done well with pens based on this nib coupler.


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## redfishsc

> _Originally posted by bgray43050_
> 
> I went back to my books to check my statistics.
> 
> Since October, I've sold over 200 pens based on this nib coupler.
> 
> I've had about 1 per month returned for this reason.
> 
> This is also the only reason that someone has returned a pen.
> 
> So that's roughly less than 4%.
> 
> Considering that it's a very easy repair, I have no problem with this, and I've done well with pens based on this nib coupler.




Good info, thanks for the stats. I have not sold, nor made, nor even seen, 200 of these pens, but I have a much, much higher failure rate unfortunately. 

The one issue, if I were you, would be to consider what I know from my years in retail sales. For every customer that returns a defective item, you probably have at least one, if not more, that have defective items and do nothing about it-- which is not doing good for your reputation or repeat business. Nor does it much good for the image of kit pen makers in general.


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## bgray

> _Originally posted by redfishsc_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Originally posted by bgray43050_
> 
> I went back to my books to check my statistics.
> 
> Since October, I've sold over 200 pens based on this nib coupler.
> 
> I've had about 1 per month returned for this reason.
> 
> This is also the only reason that someone has returned a pen.
> 
> So that's roughly less than 4%.
> 
> Considering that it's a very easy repair, I have no problem with this, and I've done well with pens based on this nib coupler.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good info, thanks for the stats. I have not sold, nor made, nor even seen, 200 of these pens, but I have a much, much higher failure rate unfortunately.
> 
> The one issue, if I were you, would be to consider what I know from my years in retail sales. For every customer that returns a defective item, you probably have at least one, if not more, that have defective items and do nothing about it-- which is not doing good for your reputation or repeat business. Nor does it much good for the image of kit pen makers in general.
Click to expand...


Understood, but I also include a letter with each pen stating that if there is ever a problem due to manufacturing, that I will take care if it if it's within reason...at any time.

It's possible, but I doubt that anyone that had a broken nib holder would not made me aware.  Especially when my pens start at $165, and any reasonable repair is free.


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## bgray

Also...I would like to add.

Whenever someone has returned a pen based on this this nib holder, they never have said that it was a light drop, or that it broke for an unacceptable reason.

Every return that I've had, the customer feels that it's their fault, and then they are super-impressed that I will fix it for free.


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## marionquill

I've had many of the El Grande pens break at that point. I love the kit too, it sells well but I'm always on edge about it being returned (not good for business, word of mouth and repeat sells alike).  Most of the time, people break it loose by closing it too tightly (generally men buy this pen or women buy it for men). All it takes is a little too much torque and it busts loose. I would like to see this flaw corrected, especially since it costs me shipping both ways, plus the time to fix it and go back to the post office. I sell it but always put an extra line in there about sending back for repair if anything ever happens to it...

Jason


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## ken69912001

I had one sent to me from Australia. Left there in good shape but arrived still packaged great but broke because of difference in altitude and air pressure on the plane here.


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## redfishsc

> _Originally posted by bgray43050_
> 
> Also...I would like to add.
> 
> Whenever someone has returned a pen based on this this nib holder, they never have said that it was a light drop, or that it broke for an unacceptable reason.
> 
> Every return that I've had, the customer feels that it's their fault, and then they are super-impressed that I will fix it for free.




Good observation. One of the things I tend to forget, as a cabinet maker and pen maker is that people are often quite impressed and thankful for your time and use of your skills (not always the case though!!!!).

In both worlds I've found that if I'm a mere "product dispenser" I will be relegated to the "Wal-Mart" mentality and everything is seen as commodity. 

HOWEVER if I talk of my products in terms of customization, personalization, uniqueness, "made to fit", "made to LAST", then I everything I make is usually seen for what it is-- a unique piece of craftsmanship made by a good ol American just for that particular person. 


And with nib couplers that don't break


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## mdburn_em

I will be spending some of my cash on test driving some of the new pens at PSI.  Berea doesn't seem to want my money, maybe PSI wants to earn it.


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## redfishsc

> _Originally posted by ken69912001_
> 
> I had one sent to me from Australia. Left there in good shape but arrived still packaged great but broke because of difference in altitude and air pressure on the plane here.



Holy crap. While I'm one to criticize them for selling a kit with a part that I consider poorly designed, I can't quite fathom how air pressure would cause the nib coupler to break. I'm not saying it _didn't_, but I'd wonder either 1) how that could happen or 2) if it broke discreetly by the pen maker when it was pressed together and the jostling of being loaded on the plane shook it loose. [?]

It'll make a fountain pen pee all in your pocket, that's for sure, but how would it break a nib coupler?


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## Gepzo

I had a Churchill kit break at this coupler while in my pocket, and I've had several others break in the shop, twisting on a cap...made me kind of upset to go buy another kit to replace one little part, but that part is one that I cannot reproduce myself.  Really put the desire in me to go get a tap/die so I wouldn't need to buy more kits...but that external part is a triple start, right?  Not worth the big bucks, as I missed the group buy.

-George


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## avbill

Both the Churchill and El Grande pen kits are fine looking pens.  After   making a slimline they were   my first larger pen kits. I bought two kit of each.  I made my son a Churchill.  I dropped it  and at the coupler it broke.  I have spare parts.  With the El Grande I also replaced the coupler.  So with four pen kits and using the second  kit as parts --I have said nuts to this and  looked for a different pen kits. 

Bill Daniels


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## redfishsc

Well, Bill, if the Pres of Berea will read this thread and decide to act upon it, our "prayers" will have been answered. 

I personally can't wait to make another Churchill. Right now I have an Apollo from PSI in the works, we'll see if it's as classy as the Churchill.


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## redfishsc

I just sent an email to Berea, with the intent that it goes to their Pres, Mr. Jim Heusinger, to see what he has to say about the issue. 


If given permission by him, I will report here what he had to say. I am actually hoping that he will post here himself. 


I REALLY hope that they hear us and make a necessary change so that we can buy and sell this pen with some sort of confidence that they won't break and make us, the pen maker, look amateur or cheap.


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## Rudy Vey

> _Originally posted by redfishsc_
> 
> I just sent an email to Berea, with the intent that it goes to their Pres, Mr. Jim Heusinger, to see what he has to say about the issue.
> 
> 
> If given permission by him, I will report here what he had to say. I am actually hoping that he will post here himself.
> 
> 
> I REALLY hope that they hear us and make a necessary change so that we can buy and sell this pen with some sort of confidence that they won't break and make us, the pen maker, look amateur or cheap.



Why don't you call him, Jim Heusinger always had an open ear for me and if you cannot get him on the phone, he will call you back -guaranteed! Last time he called me back I was standing waist deep in   a stream and had just hooked a nice trout, so I had (unfortunately) cut my call a bit short. He likes to hear of problems with kits and discusses possible improvements. I used to live about 2 hours away, and whenever I was in the Cleveland area I stopped by and we had a chat and surely I left some money there for kits and great wood.


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## redfishsc

> _Originally posted by Rudy Vey_
> 
> 
> Why don't you call him, Jim Heusinger always had an open ear for me and if you cannot get him on the phone, he will call you back -guaranteed!



Only for the simple reason that I'm always tied up Mon-Fri 8-5 at work. We've been installing 250 bookshelf units at a new construction at the Seminary. My lunch break is the only time I get and, well, I do nothing that would  require much thinking or other brain functions during that time. Even too lazy to dial the phone.

I'm certainly open to chatting with him on the phone if he's available when I'm off (I dunno what time zone he's in, didn't think of that[B)]). For the moment I'll have to stick to email.


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## Dan_F

I'll add my name to the list of folks that would like to see this part changed in the two pens. My main user right now is a Churchill FP, but I have been reluctant to buy more due to hearing these reports. 

Dan


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## PenWorks

I will go on record as The Churchill being a good seller and a good kit to modify. I like the look and feel of the front section
and the lighter weight to the pen. No doubt the week link to this kit is the plastic coupler. 

I have started doing business with Dayacom and have already ordered a new Churchill in Ti Gold and Rhodium ,rollerballs and fountain pens with a metal nib coupler modification, replacing the week link. I don't expect them for at least 2 months though.


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## Ligget

Anthony is this option available to everyone?


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## redfishsc

> _Originally posted by ligget_
> 
> Anthony is this option available to everyone?




INDEED! I'm hoping our good buddy will inform us on how to get some of those babies!


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## PenWorks

Mark, it is available to everyone buying them from me 

They are ordered and I will post them on my web site when they arrive.


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## redfishsc

Many thanks Anthony, I'll be looking for them. Be sure to let us know when they come available.


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## brycej

> _Originally posted by PenWorks_
> 
> Mark, it is available to everyone buying them from me



Anthony, are the nib holders available as well or just the complete kits?


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## Ligget

Brilliant![]


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## rclotsch

I have made 3 Churchill Pens using the Berea kits.  The first one broke right at this weak point.  The other 2 I pressed in using a metal sleave over the plastic threads to transfer the stress directly to the metal rim below---So far, these have been fine.

Since Berea doesn't seem to be listening to us on this problem, I spoke with CS-USA about the problem and suggested to them that they should sell the Churchill Type pen from Dayacom (with metal modification) since they already purchase many of their kits from this vendor.  Hopefully, this message gets to their purchaser and then "Bye Bye" to Berea for these pen kits (unless they change this problem part to metal).   Perhaps, Berea may have more interest in resolving this problem when customers have a better alternative and their sales of this kit drop off.  The power of the marketplace.  We'll see.


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## jack barnes

I bought 2 Cambridges(IMOP just an up graded El Grande) and both broke, what a waste of money. 

Jack


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## curlyjoe

I purchased many of the kits mentioned here and never had one break. Why is it that every time some one has a problem with a kit the first one getting blamed is the manufacturer? I have no problem stating that I have made many mistakes in my days and am at fault for most of my problems. How are you folks putting these together? What tools are being used that could be causing this? Are parts getting cocked as you are pressing them together? I really like this kit and so do my customers and just because a few people have problems I don't go for the head of the manufacturer for this. Innocent until proven guilty. I will continue to buy until the facts show other then user error. And what does going to another supplier do? From what it looks like they have their problems to. I don't think going to another company will solve the problem on this kit. I think this needs to re-evaluated before we start head hunting.


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## redfishsc

> _Originally posted by curlyjoe_
> 
> I purchased many of the kits mentioned here and never had one break. Why is it that every time some one has a problem with a kit the first one getting blamed is the manufacturer?




Because there are a LOT of them breaking in the exact same spot by people assembling them the same way they do any other kit. Having to make and use a push-block is reasonable, but there are those who use them and have still had trouble. That's not user error, that's a weak link in their product. I've never once heard of a Gent, with a metal coupler, break. I've heard pile upon pile of Churchills, Elgrandes, and even a few Cambridge break. 


We aren't head hunting. We are asking Berea to improve a product and I don't see anything wrong with that.


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## curlyjoe

Why is it that only some of them break and most don't? I just don't understand this. If the piece is made of metal won't that change the weight? how about the cost of the kit? I have heard many complaints on weight and cost. It just seems to be that what ever the kit is some one has a problem with it or doesn't like it. I still haven't heard a definitive fact that leads me to believe that it is a kit issue. I'm sorry I just don't see it.


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## DCBluesman

Curly Joe - Like you, I have never had a Churchill (or an El Grande) break as described.  That being said, I do believe that this is a weak point in the components.  There are just too many talented pen makers who have had this exact problem.  I'm not sure that metal is the right way to solve the problem, but the Ligero (which is a near twin of the El Grande) used a metal coupler without significantly inreasing the weight or balance.


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## RussFairfield

If my memory is right, these kits were designed with the plastic parts because everyone was bitching about the metal parts that were used on the other kits available at the time.


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## redfishsc

> _Originally posted by RussFairfield_
> 
> If my memory is right, these kits were designed with the plastic parts because everyone was bitching about the metal parts that were used on the other kits available at the time.




Russ has hit the dilemma on the head, but I'm thinking the part could either be made with a thicker plastic insert, or perhaps even machined out of a lighter metal like aluminum.

As far as effecting the cost, the Churchill is already a bit inflated IMO, especially for parts that might break.


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## kirkfranks

So has there been any response from Berea yet?


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## redfishsc

> _Originally posted by kirkfranks_
> 
> So has there been any response from Berea yet?




Not yet, but it hasn't been too awful long since I first emailed them, a little over a week.


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## bobaltig

Just to be pragmatic, let me ask this question please.  How much more would you be willing to pay for the kit to get a metal coupler?  There's tremendous difference between the cost of metal and delrin.  I'm sure the cost of the kit with a metal coupling would be significantly more than the current price point.

I have made about a dozen Churchills and maybe a dozen more El Grandes.  Out of all those pens, I have not had any couplings break on assembly or because of normal owner use.  I have had one break when I disassembled the pen to refinish it because I was satisfied with the finished product.  With that kind of failure rate, I wouldn't be willing to pay $5 or %6 more per kit.  Here's why.

I lose a kit because I break the coupling, and I've lost a little less than $15 (the cost of the replacement kit I'll have to use).  I pay $5 additional for 24 pen kits and I'm out $120.  I'd much prefer to keep things the way they are, toss the broken kit in the trash, and keep the additional $105 I didn't have to spend.  I might even use that money to buy 7 more kits and have even more fun.

Bob


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## redfishsc

> _Originally posted by bobaltig_
> 
> I lose a kit because I break the coupling, and I've lost a little less than $15 (the cost of the replacement kit I'll have to use).  I pay $5 additional for 24 pen kits and I'm out $120.  I'd much prefer to keep things the way they are, toss the broken kit in the trash, and keep the additional $105 I didn't have to spend.  I might even use that money to buy 7 more kits and have even more fun.
> 
> Bob




Good reasoning here. I understand what you're saying.   May I ante up a bit and add some more thought? 


First question, are you really only out $15 for the kit? What about the hour (or two, three, four....) of time you spent on the first, and now the second (replacement) kit? Most penturners charge (hopefully) as much as $50 per hour turning pens. $50 buys a lot of kits.

Or perhaps what a customer thinks about your pen when if breaks it (or, probably more correctly, finishes breaking the hairline crack that often forms when you press the pen together)? Will he suspect that you make superior, valuable pens and he just happened to get an odd-man out? Not the customers I have. I simply am not willing to risk selling a pen that might break so easily... or might work right for years. Make that one customer, who paid $100-200 for a nice Churchill, suspicious that the "pen guy" sells cheap pens, and you may have lost his return business. 


I know every kit will once in a while come with a goof. I got $60 Imperial once that had a seriously melted nib feed, but that was obviously not the norm nor even common. 

I wish I could say the same for the breaking coupler problem on the Churchill/Elgrande.


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## Firefyter-emt

I dare say that the cost and design of the Ligro is simpler and cheaper to make!  The "exposed" parts (IE: cap threads) are still plastic as they have been cut onto the section. The Ligero has a metal thread coupler that is pressed into the body. This has a simple thread almost exactly the same as the posting end of the Churchill. The Ligero section screws in just like the post end, but has threads cut on the section itself to retain the cap.  The part, once togather looks almost exactly the same between the two kits.  I dare say this is simpler and cheaper to make that that thin dual threaded collar pressed inside a metal coupler that is then pressed into the body.  

I would hope, based on a cost to build the part ratio, the cost of the kit would go down. There is much less to tool to build the Ligero style section and thread coupler than the Berea style.


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## redfishsc

Well, I have received NO response from Berea in the form of personal communication. 


However, SOMEBODY was listening. There are several suppliers who are now stocking Churchills, El Grandes, and Cambridges with the metal nib couplers (plated to match the kit plating, not black). 


One of them is getting the kits from Berea (I can't say about the other b/c I haven't asked him). 


So perhaps SOMEBODY somewhere was listening. 


I for one, am quite HAPPY!!


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## Mikey

FWIW, Berea knows of the problem. When I was in there last year buying kits/parts, an employee who shall go nameless told me that he wished that their plastic part was instead metal like the baron. He knew of the breakage problem but said nothing was being done at the time.  Berea does listen to customers though and I'm sure in time it will be modified. Problem is that it may be too late for many people.


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## Randy_

For a bunch of reasons I won't bother you with, I have never crafted one of the kits mentioned above so I have never seen one of the failures that is being discussed.  Anyone out there have a picture of a failed part so myself and other ignorants can see what the problem looks like?

I seem to recall a discussion where it was suggested that this was mostly a crafter's problem and folks were not being careful enough when assembling the kits.  Perhaps the discussion was about another kit......not quite sure.
 
It does seem to me that if some folks can build significant numbers of these kits without failures, perhaps it behooves those who are having trouble to re-examine their own crafting techniques for faults.  That being said, if I were a manufacturer and had a product that a significant number of my customers were having trouble with (even if it was basically a sound product) I would make an effort to update the product to make it more user friendly.
 
My own personal experience with Berea is they are less than totally sympathetic to problems with their products.  To be fair, there are certainly others who are quite satisfied with the response they receive from the company when reporting problems.   
 
Honestly, I have to say my feeling is that problems get way overblown on forums like this and that a few unhappy people can stir the pot and make a problem seem worse than it really is.  It would be nice to know (in real numbers) how big the problem really is.  Think I will start a little poll and see if we can narrow in on the magnitude of the problem.


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## Randy_

redfishsc said:


> .....There are several suppliers who are now stocking Churchills, El Grandes, and Cambridges with the metal nib couplers (plated to match the kit plating, not black).....


 
Matt:  How about mentioning some names?? After stirring the pot, I'm sure there are quite a few people who would like to have that information!!
 


redfishsc said:


> .....One of them is getting the kits from Berea.....


 
If resellers are getting those kits from Berea, it only makes sense that individual pen crafters should be able to get them as well??


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## redfishsc

Lol, Randy, you're right. Not sure what I was thinking. You can get the Churchills from Ernie Beartoothwoods.com and from Anthony at Penworks. 






> Honestly, I have to say my feeling is that problems get way overblown on forums like this and that a few unhappy people can stir the pot and make a problem seem worse than it really is.




I'm not sure that complaining, even loudly, about a product that embarrassed us in front of a customer who paid $80-$150 for a fountain pen----- because it broke like a twig with very little effort----- can hardly be called "overblown".  


Either way, seems like the problem is solved as far as I can tell.


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## Randy_

redfishsc said:


> Lol, Randy, you're right. Not sure what I was thinking. You can get the Churchills from Ernie Beartoothwoods.com and from Anthony at Penworks...... Either way, seems like the problem is solved as far as I can tell. .....


 
Not quite sure how the problem is solved if you can only get Churchills?  Won't folks still have the same difficulty with the El Grande kit and the Cambridge kit?


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## Randy_

redfishsc said:


> .....However, SOMEBODY was listening. There are several suppliers who are now stocking Churchills, El Grandes, and Cambridges with the metal nib couplers (plated to match the kit plating, not black).
> 
> 
> One of them is getting the kits from Berea (I can't say about the other b/c I haven't asked him).


 
I'm still confused?? 


I know that Ernie is a Berea reseller. Is he the one that has all three kits in stock with the metal couplers??


According to the post by Anthony, he only has the Churchill and is getting it from Dyacom, not Berea, and it will be several months before he actually has it in stock as it is only on order right now.


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## redfishsc

Randy_ said:


> I know that Ernie is a Berea reseller. Is he the one that has all three kits in stock with the metal couplers??
> 
> 
> According to the post by Anthony, he only has the Churchill and is getting it from Dyacom, not Berea, and it will be several months before he actually has it in stock as it is only on order right now.




Yes. Ernie's email stated that he was getting all three (EG, Churchill, Cambridge) with metal couplers, and the coupler was Berea's. 

Here is the quote directly from his email:


> *from Ernie at Beartoothwoods.com*
> 
> Also, all El Grande, Churchill, and Cambridge fountain and rollerball pen kitssold from now on will include Berea's solid metal nib coupler sleeve. For the time being the kits will come with both the plastic and the metal sleeves and you can choose which you'd like to put on the kit. I will add a notice on the appropriate pages, but only after I have full internet access back.


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## Randy_

Thanks, Matt.  That pretty much clears it up.  Hope the new part will fix the problem!!  Sometimes a fix leads to other problems.  Hope that won't be the case here.
 
Some folks will express concerns about the extra weight of the metal vs. plastic piece; but for such a small part it can't be more than a gram or two and should not be a "real" issue.
 
Obviously, a fix like this doesn't occur overnight.  It takes a while to tool up for a new part and and actually get it in production.  Given that assumption, I wonder why Berea has been so tight-lipped about the problem??  Seems like they could have acknowledged that there was a problem and announced that a fix was in the works instead of the stonewalling with the response of, ".....first we have heard of it...."  Seems to me they have just let the problem fester and irritated a lot of people unnecessarily. Not the way I would have handled the situation; but it seems to work for them.
 
It is because of this attitude (and a difficult web site) that I rarely ever buy directly from Berea any more.  BB is my current vendor of choice for Berea products.


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## bitshird

Randy I wonder why Berea has been so tight-lipped about the problem??  Seems like they could have acknowledged that there was a problem and announced that a fix was in the works instead of the stonewalling with the response of said:
			
		

> Randy, I believe this is the new standard cop out for most manufacturers and dealers, We have a three month old machine at work, it's been giving us some trouble, another shop has the same machine and same problem, the factory rep has been to his place 4 times over the last six months, but he tells us this is the first time I've seen this problem  sort of like a lady of the evening telling her customer "Oh my I've never seen one that big before"  I think it's the same thing it's just a trained response in lieu of an honest statement. who knows maybe they train these girls :biggrin: or Vice Versus :wink: any way I'm glad they finally acknowledged there was an issue and took steps to correct it


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## Randy_

bitshird said:


> Randy, I believe this is the new standard cop out for most manufacturers and dealers......


 
Sadly, Ken, I fear you are correct. And you can add politicians to your list!!



bitshird said:


> ......who knows maybe they train these girls :biggrin: or Vice Versus :wink:


 
Where can we find some that turn pens??:biggrin:


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## redfishsc

Randy, you might need to direct that question to Ed4copies, he seems to have solved that issue for himself!


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## laurie sullivan

I'm a little late with this thread but I gave a pen to my neighbor and he dropped on the floor and the threaded insert under the cap split. so my only recourse was to buy a new kit and tap out the broken parts, replace them and give back the pen.

I have not bought that pen kit since........I will go back if the parts change.

Laurie


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## redfishsc

They have changed. You can get the Churchills with metal couplers from Anthony at Penworks and all three pens from Ernie at Beartoothwoods.


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## tbroye

I Emailed Brea, Friday asking if the would sell the part seperately so those of us who have some kits can change the part if we want.  I bought 3 Churchill from some here at IAP, made on gave it to BIL and with in a week it was broken.  Would love to get just the part then I could repair the one and buld the others.


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## Randy_

redfishsc said:


> They have changed. *You can get the Churchills with metal couplers from Anthony at Penworks* and all three pens from Ernie at Beartoothwoods.


 
But you will have to be patient.



			
				Anthony said:
			
		

> I have started doing business with Dayacom and have already ordered a new Churchill in Ti Gold and Rhodium ,rollerballs and fountain pens with a metal nib coupler modification, replacing the week link.* I don't expect them for at least 2 months though.*


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## redfishsc

Lol, oops. I forgot about that. Thanks Randy. You pick up on the slightest thing! Nice catch


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