# Crown tools (turning tools) and AMT turning tools



## phillywood (May 23, 2011)

Hello, folks, I just got my hands on some turning tools that one set has the label bands ( Crown tools from Sheffield England) the other set is AMT turning tool set. I'll try to post pictures tomorrow. I was trying to find out when they were made and what they are worth, however, when I googled them I couldn't find anything. I was hoping that some of our older (in turning years) members can help or direct me to them. Or, if you can remember where these gouges were sold and what type of steel they are made of?
These are the pic.s I added 5/24/11


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## OKLAHOMAN (May 23, 2011)

http://crownhandtools.ltd.uk/


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## phillywood (May 23, 2011)

OKLAHOMAN said:


> http://crownhandtools.ltd.uk/


Toy thank you so much evidently my googling is not as good as yours. BTW, do you happen to knwo about the AMT Tools?


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## hunter-27 (May 23, 2011)

AMT (American Machine Tools) Is still in existence but as a pump manufacturing company, I believe the got out of the tool and lathe business 20+ years ago.


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## phillywood (May 23, 2011)

hunter-27 said:


> AMT (American Machine Tools) Is still in existence but as a pump manufacturing company, I believe the got out of the tool and lathe business 20+ years ago.


 
Well, heck if that's the case then, these turning tools are pretty old, but still in good shape.


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## maxwell_smart007 (May 23, 2011)

I just bought a brand new Crown gouge not too long ago..they're definitely still in business


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## phillywood (May 23, 2011)

maxwell_smart007 said:


> I just bought a brand new Crown gouge not too long ago..they're definitely still in business


Max, I meant the AMT, not the Crown and could you tell me that were you bought your gouge from, please?


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## el_d (May 23, 2011)

phillywood said:


> maxwell_smart007 said:
> 
> 
> > I just bought a brand new Crown gouge not too long ago..they're definitely still in business
> ...



Woodcraft carries Crown.


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## KenV (May 24, 2011)

Phil -- AMT tools was around in the 80's and perhaps the early 90's.  They imported some tools that were different, and had decent quality high carbon chisels for carving and woodworking in general.  I have some large fishtail gouges that are pretty well made, but not especially finely polished/finished.

I never saw lathe tools, and cannot comment if they were high carbon steel or high speed steel.    Nothing wrong with a high carbon tool -- as long as you do not get the edges the least bit hot while grinding, and accept that the edge will need to be sharpened more often than a high speed steel tool.


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## phillywood (May 24, 2011)

KenV said:


> Phil -- AMT tools was around in the 80's and perhaps the early 90's. They imported some tools that were different, and had decent quality high carbon chisels for carving and woodworking in general. I have some large fishtail gouges that are pretty well made, but not especially finely polished/finished.
> 
> I never saw lathe tools, and cannot comment if they were high carbon steel or high speed steel. Nothing wrong with a high carbon tool -- as long as you do not get the edges the least bit hot while grinding, and accept that the edge will need to be sharpened more often than a high speed steel tool.


Ken, If you get chance , please take a look at the pic.s above, and thank you for the info.


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## KenV (May 25, 2011)

Phil --  I am not aware of any non-destructive methods of testing between High Speed Steel (HSS) and High Carbon Steel (HCS).   Current practice is to mark HSS on tools, but I have a couple older ones I gathered up (a bob stockdale gouge comes to mind) that look to be HSS but are not marked.  (that tool has not been to a grinder and I have not needed to use it - so it is still as new).

Distructive - or alterning methods include -- taking a known HCS steel to the grinder and comparing the spark pattern.  High carbon steel has a different spark pattern than most HSS at the grinder.   Another is to heat it to blue color and see if it has lost it's temper.  HCS will become softer as it is blued where HSS will not lose temper until about 1100 degrees F.   High carbon steel can be re-hardened and tempered, but it will not be shiney in a box if you were thinking of selling it.  There are internet references with descriptions of the difference in spark patterns, but I find direct comparison on the same wheel in the same light make the choices easier to discern.

Side note --  the quality control of 20-30 years ago with high speed steel was not a rigerous as it is today.  There have been a few technical improvements over the past few decades.  Old HSS likely will not perform the same as the current steels, especially the powdered metal steels.  Expect the AMT and perhaps the Crown tool to be more comperable to the Bens Best or similar in terms of durability of edges.


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## phillywood (May 25, 2011)

Ken, thank you very much for the information, you have helped a newbie to learn something new and it is very informative, appreciate it.


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## sbwertz (May 25, 2011)

All my tools except for the woodchucks are crown tools, and I've only been turning a year.  I really like them.  They take and hold an edge really well.  

If they are very old, they are probably not High Speed Steel, so be very careful sharpening them not to get them too hot and ruin the temper in the carbon steel.


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## bitshird (May 25, 2011)

Crown makes a very good tool, even if it's not carbide<LOL>


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## Wildman (May 25, 2011)

Have never owned a HSS tool that did not have a stamp or stencil on them.  Cannot see any markings on tools in photos.  My old Sears tools claimed to be HSS, but were carbon steel. I wore them out! yes, blued the edges more than once learning how to sharpen.

JMHO, think you get a cleaner cut with carbon steel tools that leaves a smoother wood surface. If you have a light, touch at the grinder and touch up with slip stone between trips to grinder carbon steel tools good op.  Talking about skews, and gouges and scrapper and making a final pass with very light touch. Only downside to carbon steel tools is cost.  Quality carbon steel tools cost as much as HSS today. HSS steel has become the standard, but not all tools created equally. 

Old carbon steel tools really do not have much value. Turning tools are consumables so not much appreciation for antique turning tools. Remember there have always been steel brokers in Sheffield England, does not always mean tools made there. Some turning tools claiming Sheffield England heritage not even cut to length and bevel put on them there.  


Good Read:
Putting the Steel to the Test
http://www.alanlacer.com/articles/ToolSteel.pdf

Now it works, Sorry bout that!


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## phillywood (May 26, 2011)

bitshird said:


> Crown makes a very good tool, even if it's not carbide<LOL>


Ken they look good to me and they look like they maybe HSS, but I emailed them to the site above and waiting to hear form them. I figured that I am not going to loose that much money on them until I become very good at turning and that'll be few years down the road, so for now it should serve me well. You know a man is bound to get lucky once in awhile in his life, huh?


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## phillywood (May 26, 2011)

Wildman said:


> Good Read:
> Putting the Steel to the Test
> http://www.alanlacer.com/articles/ToolSteel.pdf’


Wildman, thanks for the insight and BTW, this link won't work, however I appreciate your effort. ithink you emant this one:
http://www.alanlacer.com/articles/ToolSteel.pdf


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## KenV (May 26, 2011)

Phillip  -- try this one

http://www.alanlacer.com

go to articles

go to tool steel  -- it is a reprint of an article in AAW journal 

It does show the difference between the "classic" sparks with high carbon and high speed steel in a pair of photos.  I find the wheel may cause some differences, so having a reference steel helps --  and I use a high carbon carpentry chisle that is badly pitted 

If you are going to turn with them -- testing with the wheel should be enlightening -- let us know what you find.


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## phillywood (May 26, 2011)

The second Qsn. I had was is there any chart that you all know of which tells you what is the angle of the bevels on each tools and what angle of the cut (edge) is on the scrapers, or even how deep the flutes are on the gouges, and/or do you guys think that I should measure these tools on each angles and keep a chart for the future sharpening reference? What do you guys think?


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## Wildman (May 26, 2011)

You can google that information or get same from most woodturning books. You will find there are ranges of bevel angles for spindle (30 to 45 degrees) and bowl gouges (40 to 70 degrees). Same is true for skew, parting tools and scrappers.  

Knowing the current angle on your tools and how they work for you more important.  Repeating bevel angle without lot of facets the goal in sharpening.  I can keep same bevel angle getting fingernail or side grind on spindle and bowl gouges.  Keep the same bevel angles on my skews, parting tools.  Having duplicate size spindle and bowl gouges allows me to get different bevel angle for different turnings.  I use a homemade bevel checker that cost me fifty cents many years ago. 

Protractor
http://www.ossmann.com/protractor/conventional-protractor.pdf

Buy two protractors, insert small bolt and washer in center hole on 0 to 180 degree line on one, install second protractor washer and nut. 

Simply open protractors and lay one edge between flute, move other edge tight against bevel this will give you current bevel angle of your gouge.  I am not within published angles on skews and parting tools because freehand sharpen them, still close.


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## KenV (May 26, 2011)

Phillip --  My observation is that most turners develop a personal style and the angle of the bevels and style of shapes varies quite widely.   Most experiment some to see what works best for them with the materials and style of turning.   This is one of those situations that is parallel to why there are so many different car models running down the freeways.  

Alan Lacer is a "Pro" with the skew and suggests a bevel length 1 1/2 times the thickness of the skew metal behind the bevel and a hollow grind.   Alan turns mostly wood.   Ed Davidson (YoYoSpin) has several videos in the IAP library -- if you watch those you will see that Ed turns polyester resins with a skew bevel length much shorter than than suggested by Lacer.   Eli Avisera, another prominent turner does not use a hollow grind on skews instead using a more progressive convex grind.   Don Ward (Its Virgil) advises that he has moved to that style after taking a class from Eli.  I have tried that and like it and also have been moving that direction.  

Wood Central has a gallery of grinds that is interesting to look at

http://www.woodcentral.com/newforum/grinds.shtml

Go Practice -- decide what works for you -- and have fun.


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