# CSUSA Apprentice question



## texaswoodworker (Dec 4, 2010)

I was wondering if the apprentice kits from CSUSA are good pen kits or cheap ones? What are some of the pros and cons of these kits? Is it better to buy these kits or the higher priced versions of these kits?

Thanks.


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## Mark (Dec 4, 2010)

I called them and asked the same question. What I was told was if it was a hobby for my personal use, get the Apprentice and save some money. If this was for someone else or my reputation was at stake, go with the regular kits. YMMV, but that is what customer service told me.


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## texaswoodworker (Dec 4, 2010)

Thanks for the info. I'll probably go with the regular kits insted.


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## Mark (Dec 4, 2010)

Don't get me wrong. I'm sure there are lots of people that utilize the Apprentice kit and have never had a problem. Let's see what the masses say. I've never bought one, so I can't tell you how they perform. 

Maybe they told me that to sell the higher priced kits. 
The only one I get from them is the Zen and I'm slowly switching over to the Electra instead.


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## PenMan1 (Dec 5, 2010)

They are not good. BUT they are NO worse than anyone else's bottom of the line. If you just need practice and want to give away some cheap pens to some friends, IMHO, the PSI funlines perform as well or better than the rest of the bottom of the line pens and the funlines are substantially less expensive.


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## Smitty37 (Dec 5, 2010)

*ouch*



PenMan1 said:


> They are not good. BUT they are NO worse than anyone else's bottom of the line. If you just need practice and want to give away some cheap pens to some friends, IMHO, the PSI funlines perform as well or better than the rest of the bottom of the line pens and the funlines are substantially less expensive.


You hurt me....I usually beat PSI prices with kits that are just as good or better than their funlines.


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## Smitty37 (Dec 5, 2010)

*Not exclusive*



texaswoodworker said:


> I was wondering if the apprentice kits from CSUSA are good pen kits or cheap ones? What are some of the pros and cons of these kits? Is it better to buy these kits or the higher priced versions of these kits?
> 
> Thanks.


 
Good and cheap are not mutually exclusive. They can be both low cost and good quality kits. I think the apprentice kits are decent kits. Not for making $200 pens, but most turners are not making $200 pens and those who are don't even think about buying low end kits.


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## johnnycnc (Dec 5, 2010)

texaswoodworker said:


> I was wondering if the apprentice kits from CSUSA are good pen kits or cheap ones? What are some of the pros and cons of these kits? Is it better to buy these kits or the higher priced versions of these kits?
> 
> Thanks.



The apprentice line is priced at a point much less than the "regular" items
that they mimic. The apprentice line is "cheaper" if you will in terms of fit,
finish, rough edges, lower quality refills in some cases that I have seen.
I have noted that there are cases where the drills, bushings, tubes, etc.
are also different. That alone would cause me to take pause and question
what exactly the apprentice line is. They are obviously not the same thing,
just made to a bit rougher tolerance or standard or plating change.

The apprentice line may well make servicable pens, and do well. 
My perspective is that if I am going to take time to make a top quality
set of blanks, to the best of my ability, then I do not wish to use cut-rate
hardware to complete the pen. If I like a particular style, then I get the
best component kit for that style.
If I were in a production mode, selling tons of pens, I might consider the apprentice line. But I'm not.
Consider the use, is it a volume sale pen, a giveaway, a promotional item being ordered at a low price point, a daily driver, a gift to a loved one, a work of art that you hope to get top dollar for...those all can requuire much different views on what is needed to meet budget, or no concern at all on price.
My 2 cents.


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## OLDMAN5050 (Dec 5, 2010)

they fit by budget I  have made 5 chrome and 5 gold and have not had any problem with them yet.... no comlaints from the receipants yet


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## Smitty37 (Dec 5, 2010)

*Not everyone is the same*



johnnycnc said:


> texaswoodworker said:
> 
> 
> > I was wondering if the apprentice kits from CSUSA are good pen kits or cheap ones? What are some of the pros and cons of these kits? Is it better to buy these kits or the higher priced versions of these kits?
> ...


 
John, you know that I am a happy customer of yours who comes to you for things because you are particular about what you deliver and you are very good at what you do. On the subject of what you sell I have no hesitation what-so-ever in recommending you to anyone who asks .. but, here we have a difference of opinion.  

Just like there is a market for $200,000 Lamborghinis there is a market for  $10,000 Hundai Accents.  Both serve the same purpose -- getting from point A to point B.  I'm a pickup truck guy myself and wouldn't be caught dead driving either.

The same holds true for pens you can buy $5000 custom made to .99 a dozen Bics.  Both serve the same purpose -- hand writing.  Most of the pens we make fall somewhere in between.  I don't have a problem walking around with a $10.00 or $20.00 pen in my pocket, but wouldn't be caught dead with a $100 or up or a 10 cent Bic.  

I sell low end kits but that does not mean I expect my customers to accept junk.  I have yet to tell a customer "well you get what you pay for, if you want them to be good you should by something more expensive" when they come to me with a complaint.  Just like you, I stand behind what I sell unconditionally - no excuses, no compromise - and if my kits were anything like as bad as a some folks here paint them, I wouldn't have been able to stay in business a week much less the three years I've been selling them.

 Low price can result from several things... but...most of the operations in creating the parts for pen kits cost no more (in the long run cost less) to do right (well) than to do wrong (poorly).  The Japanese gained their well deserved reputation for top quality while they were "low end" producers, not after they became the top notch producers they are today.  In fact, their over all quality was probably better then. 

 I am not saying bad things never happen and a bad batch never gets out the door but the kits I sell are well made,  well finished and low cost.  Now the plating might not last as long as kits costing 3 or 4 times the price but it isn't going to wear off while the pen is being assembled either.  As I said above low cost and good quality are not mutually exclusive.


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## maxwell_smart007 (Dec 5, 2010)

I think it's fairly clear, based on the comments of the CSUSA person you spoke with, that the apprentice line is of lower quality than the line it mimics. 

That appears to be a definitive answer - especially considering that the company carries BOTH versions, and told you themselves that the apprentice line is of lower quality. 

To make the item, CSUSA has two choices - make it with high regard for quality control and charge more (high end version), or use cheaper materials or processes and hope that there aren't too many rejects (apprentice version).  The cheaper version is cheaper for a reason - especially so when the same store sells both versions and admits that the cheaper version isn't really meant for pens you care to give away or sell.


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## Smitty37 (Dec 5, 2010)

*hmmmm*



maxwell_smart007 said:


> I think it's fairly clear, based on the comments of the CSUSA person you spoke with, that the apprentice line is of lower quality than the line it mimics.
> 
> That appears to be a definitive answer - especially considering that the company carries BOTH versions, and told you themselves that the apprentice line is of lower quality.  Do you ever read consumer's report?  How often do they rate the lower priced version as better than the higher priced.  Actually quite often.  They look at the item without regard to price or whether the manufacturer calls it high end, low end or no end.  Lower price and good quality are not mutually exclusive.
> 
> To make the item, CSUSA has two choices - make it with high regard for quality control and charge more (high end version), or use cheaper materials or processes and hope that there aren't too many rejects (apprentice version).  Not true Andrew see above....The cheaper version is cheaper for a reason - especially so when the same store sells both versions and admits that the cheaper version isn't really meant for pens you care to give away or sell.


 
And I sell 24kt gold and gold tn low end kits...and will tell you if you want to make kits that last buy the gold tn (*which by the way will outlast anybodys 24kt gold higher end, higher priced kits every day of the week*)... With respect to what the salesperson from CSUSA said... *I'm not sure when the last time I asked for the vendor's recommendation where he/she recommended their lowest priced version of what I was buying regardless of what it was.*  Salespeople are trained not to do that. I make more money if you buy the higher priced kit...so does CSUSA.


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## Rick_G (Dec 5, 2010)

I bought 10 apprentice sierra's in gun metal.  I didn't buy them for the pens though.  I bought them for the transmissions that I then use in my cartridge pens.  In the long run it was cheaper than buying separate transmissions because a refill and spring was included.  I liked the looks of the gun metal finish so I did make one pen and gave it to a friend.  I explained it was a cheaper kit than what I normally buy but liked the look of the finish so she was my guinea pig.  She carries it in her purse, uses it all day at work and loves the way it writes which says something for the refill at least.  That was about 6 months ago and the finish is still holding up.  For that kit and that finish I would have no problem making them for some of the pens I give away.


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## Mark (Dec 5, 2010)

Smitty37 said:


> With respect to what the salesperson from CSUSA said... *I'm not sure when the last time I asked for the vendor's recommendation where he/she recommended their lowest priced version of what I was buying regardless of what it was.*  Salespeople are trained not to do that. I make more money if you buy the higher priced kit...so does CSUSA.



I didn't ask for his recommendation. I asked about the difference between the kits and why they were so cheap. I was told "if it was a hobby, for my personal use, get the Apprentice and save some  money. If this was for someone else or my reputation was at stake, go  with the regular kits". Just as I stated in post #2... I didn't ask him to recommend a kit. He told me the difference and I passed that info on to the IAP.


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## PenMan1 (Dec 5, 2010)

Smitty37 said:


> PenMan1 said:
> 
> 
> > They are not good. BUT they are NO worse than anyone else's bottom of the line. If you just need practice and want to give away some cheap pens to some friends, IMHO, the PSI funlines perform as well or better than the rest of the bottom of the line pens and the funlines are substantially less expensive.
> ...




Sorry, Smitty. There was no malice intended. I have only made a couple of your slims ( they don't really sell in my market).

For the record, your slims were ever bit the quality of the apprentice and perhaps better than the funlines. I had no idea that your pricing is in line with funlines. You may, in fact, be the better value in these entry level sets.

Respectfully submitted.


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## maxwell_smart007 (Dec 5, 2010)

I have no idea why Smitty is getting so irate over this thread.  The thread was about the apprentice kits versus the regular kits at a specific vendor.  Since your product line was never attacked, I don't think you need to defend it so vehemently.  

In response to Smitty's concerns: I don't know if you use the same supplier as they do for their cheaper kits, nor does it really matter, but I think the idea that the apprentice is likely lower quality or more likely to have defects than the higher end kit is a matter of fact, rather than opinion. 

So yes, the apprentice is _likely_ to be of lower quality than the original, but you can only determine if that's _high enough_ quality for your own needs by trying a few and determining for yourself.  Each person's idea of quality, durability and acceptable tolerances are different. (Just like beauty - it's in the eye of the beholder!)


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## Smitty37 (Dec 5, 2010)

*all things considered*



Mark said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > With respect to what the salesperson from CSUSA said... *I'm not sure when the last time I asked for the vendor's recommendation where he/she recommended their lowest priced version of what I was buying regardless of what it was.* Salespeople are trained not to do that. I make more money if you buy the higher priced kit...so does CSUSA.
> ...


 
All things considered if you were in his shoes, what would you have answered?  

The "safe" answer you got or the answer that says "well our cheaper kits are just as good as our costlier ones"  

And whether you are asking for a recommendation specifically or not, what you are getting is a recommendation.  

I'm not faulting the person at CSUSA or CSUSA if I have the same style kits in two price ranges and you ask me about them I would tell you the same thing...and I wouldn't be lying.  "If your reputation is on the line go with our best".


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## Smitty37 (Dec 5, 2010)

maxwell_smart007 said:


> I have no idea why Smitty is getting so irate over this thread. The thread was about the apprentice kits versus the regular kits at a specific vendor. Since your product line was never attacked, I don't think you need to defend it so vehemently.
> 
> In response to Smitty's concerns: I don't know if you use the same supplier as they do for their cheaper kits, nor does it really matter, but I think the idea that the apprentice is likely lower quality or more likely to have defects than the higher end kit is a matter of fact, rather than opinion.
> 
> So yes, the apprentice is _likely_ to be of lower quality than the original, but you can only determine if that's _high enough_ quality for your own needs by trying a few and determining for yourself. Each person's idea of quality, durability and acceptable tolerances are different. (Just like beauty - it's in the eye of the beholder!)


 
Andrew I am not irate, nor am I getting irate...your statements were very dogmatic and I pointed out that the issue is not as cut and dried as you seem to think it is.

Unfortunately that is true but we'd all be better off if it were not.  Acceptable tolerances can make a difference that can surely effect price.
Durability can be measured so specifying greater durability can also effect price.
Quality in manufacturing (and these are manufactured products) is conformance to specifications and I've yet to hear of the 1st person to tell a manufacturer to "make me a poor quality item that I can sell cheap"

You're right that beauty is in the eye of the beholder.  Quality (at least with respect to manufacturing) is not.  And you and I are dog gone lucky that it's not.  How many items would you want to buy built to a standard of "if it looks ok ship it"?

And I suspect that you do not have one iota of evidence to back that statement up.  It is a matter of your opinion not a matter of fact.

The apprentice is likely to be built to different standards, yes.  does that make it lower quality, no.  Like I said, if you buy a Gold TN apprentice it will probably out last 24kt gold, in the highr priced (and in your estimation better quality) kits - so will chrome for that matter.  Will the higher priced kits have a better refill.  Not likely, I have not looked at CSUSA but the couple I've checked recommend the same replacement refill.  So what's left?  Fit and finish, there might be a difference.


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## Mark (Dec 5, 2010)

BTW: Do the math. Some of the "regular" hardware is cheaper than the Apprentice, if you buy in a larger quantity. Good Luck..


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## soligen (Dec 5, 2010)

I bought 3 of the apprentice cigar, compared to the regular cigars from other suppliers (I have not tried CSUSA regular cigar) I found the kit unacceptable.  It would not make a pen that worked acceptable becasue the tranmission was too loose in the activator tube. The tube spun on the transmission about as easily as the tranmission operated.

On the plus side for CSUSA, they fixed the issue promptly by sending me replacement transmissions from their regular line.

The clips also had rough edges - like they were not smoothed before plating.

This is just the Cigar - I have not tried any others

Personally, I would not buy the appreantice again unless I could physically examine a sample pen before hand to be sure it was a good kit.


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## MesquiteMan (Dec 5, 2010)

Let's tone it down a little on the quality arguement of other vendors products.  This thread is about the apprentice vs regular kits from CSUSA, not about kits from PSI or Smitty.

Curtis O. Seebeck
IAP Head Moderator


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## capcrnch (Dec 6, 2010)

Allow me to flip the coin if I may...
The apprentice kit is what, 4.00 from CSUSA?

A good quality cigar kit (In my experience) is about the same cost..
$4.50(ish) from Exotic (You support an IAP vendor, and get to take advantage of their other items)
$4.00(ish) from Woodturingz

I bought a ton of cigar kits from Ernie when Beartooth had them on sale for $4.00. I've yet to have or hear of a problem with one of them. 

Yeah, imo, I do think "you get what you pay for", but at the same rate, sometimes you're going to be pleasantly surprised.
ie Smitty's slimline pens are great kits. 
They're a huge seller for me, so I churn quite a bit.. I rarely have problems with his kit.
Taking it further, IMO, his kits are nicer than most of the other "budget" kits out there, and he backs them 100%.


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## texaswoodworker (Dec 6, 2010)

Thanks for the advice everyone. I'll try some of the apprentice kits and see if I like them or not.


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## gregs4163 (Dec 7, 2010)

I've made quite a few Apprentice kits and find the fit and finish very good IMO, compared to some other cheaper kits I've used. I read somewhere that the difference between the Apprentice kits and their Artisan kits is the thickness of the plating.


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## Rob73 (Feb 14, 2011)

Glad someone brought this up,  I was just looking at cusa 'apprentice' line and wondering about the quality.


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## Akula (Feb 14, 2011)

I buy them and use them for my give-a-ways.  People love them.  I have not had any major problems, maybe a few in all I have ever got.  I like to carry them around.  A good friend got me into this habit many years ago.  If I have a full day of going around on the town, then a pocket full of pens goes with me.  It really makes some peoples day.


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## larryc (Feb 14, 2011)

I have a little trouble with the comment "if you're just going to give the pen away, go with the ****** kit".
My feeling is that if you are going to give something away, it should be made as well as something you are going to sell. I wouldn't want somebody who got less than my best freebie from me showing it to someone who might be or become a customer.
Please, this is my personal feeling and I'm not disparaging any one else.


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## Sam@CSUSA (Feb 15, 2011)

Let me tell you my opinion about the CSUSA pen kits.  I am not an expert on any other companies' kits nor will I try to be.  The Apprentice kits are meant to be a competitive line to other companies' economy kits.  In my opinion the plating on the Apprentice line is not as durable as the Artisan line. The Artisan line does go through more checks from the supplier to ensure a better fit and finish.  As mentioned earlier the plating is much more durable as well.
  As far as which kits you should be selling or giving to people, that's up to you.  I can't go out and give you all free pen kits to try and decide for yourself (wouldn't that be nice :biggrin. But I can say this, CSUSA is a company that stands behind it's products.  If you get a kit that you don't like or don't think is up to quality, call us up and we'll take it back.  If you get a kit you do like but has defective parts, call us up so we can get the parts replaced.  If you get a kit and make it and still find something you don't feel is right, give us call and we'll try to make it right!  As was said earlier everyone has a different opinion about what quality is good enough for them.  Now we can't send you the kits for free to try but we can take some of the worry out the purchasing process!
  Let me know if you need any clarification on what I've said!


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## Smitty37 (Feb 15, 2011)

*Great*



Sam@CSUSA said:


> Let me tell you my opinion about the CSUSA pen kits. I am not an expert on any other companies' kits nor will I try to be. The Apprentice kits are meant to be a competitive line to other companies' economy kits. In my opinion the plating on the Apprentice line is not as durable as the Artisan line. The Artisan line does go through more checks from the supplier to ensure a better fit and finish. As mentioned earlier the plating is much more durable as well.
> As far as which kits you should be selling or giving to people, that's up to you. I can't go out and give you all free pen kits to try and decide for yourself (wouldn't that be nice :biggrin. But I can say this, CSUSA is a company that stands behind it's products. If you get a kit that you don't like or don't think is up to quality, call us up and we'll take it back. If you get a kit you do like but has defective parts, call us up so we can get the parts replaced. If you get a kit and make it and still find something you don't feel is right, give us call and we'll try to make it right! As was said earlier everyone has a different opinion about what quality is good enough for them. Now we can't send you the kits for free to try but we can take some of the worry out the purchasing process!
> Let me know if you need any clarification on what I've said!


 
I'm glad you stand behind what you sell...and having bought a few things from you I can also say you give good service.  The right way to run a business.

I stand behind what I sell too and while I'm mostly at the low priced end competing with your apprentice line, I think I'm selling pretty good kits, and so do most of my customers.


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## OLDMAN5050 (Feb 15, 2011)

I have not had a problem with the aprentice line from csusa or not a problem with smitty37 kits. I like them because I can not afford the expensive kits. I do make a lot of pens to give to the residents at the nursing home my mother is in and have been doing for the troops. I can appreciate smitty37 and for the americana apprentice from csusa. no complains at all and will continue to buy from them...........


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