# I need a STRAIGHT Hole!



## Rounder (Aug 7, 2016)

So I bought in on the SpectraPly Sale. And I have segmented a blank with inspiration from this thread, http://www.penturners.org/forum/f13/114-piece-segmented-celtic-pens-142085/.
But I have an issue with my Jet 1014VS lathe. It ain't going to drill a straight hole, period. I got this lathe from my son, TimeBandit, a while back. This was his first lathe and he bought it off of Ebay. When it arrived, it had been dropped and broken. He had it welded back together. He ended up buying a new lathe and then a metal lathe and many of you have seen some of the fine work he did. He gave this one to me and I haven't been able to replace it so it is what I have to use. I have tried all kinds of remedies to accomplish straight drilling but it hasn't worked. So I consider myself lucky to make a round pen though many have not turned out so round. I know the hole has to be straight on this or the pattern will look like poo.
So here is what I am asking. I would like to send this Spectraply blank to someone that can absolutely drill me a straight hole through it. I will send the bit necessary to drill it if you do not have one, 25/64. I will send you a pen made by me. I will send you some mesquite and spalted pecan blanks. And I will send money for return postage of the drilled Spectraply blank with a straight hole through it.
Please be "straight" with me and only accept this if you can do it. I would really appreciate any help that can be offered from this fine group of craftsmen.
Thank you, Rounder (Randy Short)


----------



## larryc (Aug 7, 2016)

I have the drill and can do it for you but you may be able to find someone closer.


----------



## donstephan (Aug 7, 2016)

Randy

Sending off the blank is a temporary (and immediate) solution but many people apparently are able to drill straight holes using either a drill press or a Jacobs chuck on a lathe.

Perhaps you only turn pens, but have you looked to see if there is a woodturning group in your area?  Many woodturners are more than willing to share experience and assistance, either to help you drill straight holes with your equipment or do the drilling for you.  It's likely that a fair percentage of the members of every woodturning group turn a range of objects, including pens.


----------



## jttheclockman (Aug 7, 2016)

If you can not drill straight holes then it means your pens can not be turned well either. My suggestion instead of being frustrated, dedicate this lathe to either finishing  or a buffing station and get yourself a new or better used lathe. Life is way too short to sweat the small things. If your son lives close have him drill it.  He owes you.


----------



## Rounder (Aug 7, 2016)

I do drill on the lathe with a Jacobs chuck. And I have a drill press but it is stored in the shed as I do not have a shop (yet). I hope to build one this fall. I just haven't done any blanks that specifically require a straight hole. I usually turn down to 3/4" and then use a collet and the Jacob's chuck.  And my dead center and live center line up very well. I have tried  slow, fast and in between. Tried new belts, new bearings, new bits. Wood  and acrylics. I can come close but never on center when the bit comes  out the other end. I have tightened the quill set screw until the quill  will barely feed. I do a starter hole to be on center when I begin drilling.
These reasons are why I haven't really tried segmenting but with the inspiration of the above mentioned pen, which I just love, and the purchase of the Spectraply, I wanted to give it a go. Then came drill time and here I am. Thanks for the input.



donstephan said:


> Randy
> 
> Sending off the blank is a temporary (and immediate) solution but many people apparently are able to drill straight holes using either a drill press or a Jacobs chuck on a lathe.
> 
> Perhaps you only turn pens, but have you looked to see if there is a woodturning group in your area?  Many woodturners are more than willing to share experience and assistance, either to help you drill straight holes with your equipment or do the drilling for you.  It's likely that a fair percentage of the members of every woodturning group turn a range of objects, including pens.


----------



## Rounder (Aug 7, 2016)

jttheclockman said:


> If you can not drill straight holes then it means your pens can not be turned well either. My suggestion instead of being frustrated, dedicate this lathe to either finishing  or a buffing station and get yourself a new or better used lathe. Life is way too short to sweat the small things. If your son lives close have him drill it.  He owes you.



My goal is a new lathe after I get my shop built. But I will have to make do with what I have until that point. Believe me, I have looked but alas, life seems to always throw a curve ball when ready to buy. Just got through having to install a new a/c system in the house which ate a chunk of change. I do understand the pens not always coming out well. I have redone many and can get fairly close to round with much patience. I do agree with the life being too short to sweat the small stuff. I am definitely in the "Don't worry, Be Happy" group. My son is 2 hours away, but life has been tough on him the last few years and his stuff is buried at the present time. So here I am checking with this great group of people.


----------



## Rounder (Aug 7, 2016)

larryc said:


> I have the drill and can do it for you but you may be able to find someone closer.



Thank you so much. I will wait a bit and see if anyone closer can help out. If not, I would be happy for you to do this for me.


----------



## TellicoTurning (Aug 7, 2016)

Why are you not getting a straight hole?  If the head stock and the tail stock are in proper alignment and you have centered the blank between the two parts, A 25/64 drill bit is fairly large and will not flex, you have to get a straight hole.


----------



## KenV (Aug 7, 2016)

Randy,  I suspect the welding was close, but not dead on and the tail stock is on one side of the weld and the headstock on the other.  Almost impossible to hit it just right without re-machining the ways.  Just a tiny missed alignment will point a restrained drill bit off a bit more than you can tolerate.

This is not the blank to be practicing alternative techniques with.  Good choice!!!

Drilling with a spindle gouge and freehand drilling are options for another day.

Do look to turning between centers as it will avoid issues with the weld making thing slightly non-coplanar.


----------



## donstephan (Aug 7, 2016)

*Not Centered or Curved*

Randy

Just to clarify, are you able to drill perfectly straight holes that come out slightly offcenter at the back end, or the drilled hole is curved along its length?


----------



## Rounder (Aug 7, 2016)

TellicoTurning said:


> Why are you not getting a straight hole?  If the head stock and the tail stock are in proper alignment and you have centered the blank between the two parts, A 25/64 drill bit is fairly large and will not flex, you have to get a straight hole.



That is what I haven't been able to figure out. And maybe saying the hole isn't straight is the wrong phraseology. It is coming out off center on the back side. But that won't work on a segmented blank like the one mentioned in the first post. When I put the blank in the collet, I bring the live center up and put it in the centering hole to make sure it is lined up the same as when I turned it round. I use a small starter bit to begin my hole and then switch to the main bit. So I am really not sure what to try next. Open to all suggestions. Never too proud to listen and learn.


----------



## Rounder (Aug 7, 2016)

KenV said:


> Randy,  I suspect the welding was close, but not dead on and the tail stock is on one side of the weld and the headstock on the other.  Almost impossible to hit it just right without re-machining the ways.  Just a tiny missed alignment will point a restrained drill bit off a bit more than you can tolerate.
> 
> This is not the blank to be practicing alternative techniques with.  Good choice!!!
> 
> ...



Actually the back left leg under the head stock was broken off and welded back on. Guess it is possible there was some twist to the ways when it was broken. There is a little slop in the tailstock but when I checked the dead and live center alignment, when I pull the tailstock up against the front way and tighten it down, the tips of the centers are aligned. So when I turn, drill, sand I always pull it to that position. I always turn between centers as I found early on that using a mandrel was not the way to go for me. Never got a good pen off a mandrel on this lathe. Thanks for the comments as I always enjoy your machinists view and explanations.


----------



## Rounder (Aug 7, 2016)

donstephan said:


> Randy
> 
> Just to clarify, are you able to drill perfectly straight holes that come out slightly offcenter at the back end, or the drilled hole is curved along its length?



The hole is offcenter on the back end. Sometimes very little and other times worse. Due to the inconsistency of the offcenter amount, I feel that somewhere there is operator error but I have been very careful to try and be consistent with my setup. Maybe I need to fire the operator, lol.


----------



## KenV (Aug 7, 2016)

Randy -- is the bed level???  Again, looking for why your axis may be slightly out of alignment.  The points can meet and be pointed in slightly different directions.

Putting a bore sighting lazer in the collet chuck and then in the drill chuck in the tail stock is sometimes informative.


----------



## Davidh14 (Aug 7, 2016)

Randy,
I would be glad to help. I use a drill press with a pen vise. 

David


----------



## Rounder (Aug 7, 2016)

KenV said:


> Randy -- is the bed level???  Again, looking for why your axis may be slightly out of alignment.  The points can meet and be pointed in slightly different directions.
> 
> Putting a bore sighting lazer in the collet chuck and then in the drill chuck in the tail stock is sometimes informative.



I hadn't thought of checking the level. Probably need to put a straight edge across the ways and see if it shows any gaps also. Now the bore sighting laser is an excellent idea. I need one anyway for my rifles so now I have an extra excuse for the boss on why I need one. Thanks. (I will let her know it was your idea ).


----------



## leehljp (Aug 7, 2016)

Here is a simple method to get perfect entrance and exit marks on irregular material or perfect on segments:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SAEEaF8z2jM
(the link originally posted here in 2009, but still works.)

It works similar with a slight modification on the drill press. 

It might not work with your lathe problems, but something you can try. AND I would not try this on delicate, thin and easily cracked blanks/ wood.


----------



## KenV (Aug 7, 2016)

Randy,

Glad to take the blame.

Had a boss years back who told me I would never be a total waste.  I could always serve as a bad example.


----------



## jttheclockman (Aug 7, 2016)

Randy, I have read some of the suggestions but i would like to step back to the beginning. Yes checking the lathe for level and straightness is a very good thing to do. But also start with the bit being used. I hope it is not a brad point bit. Make sure there is no wobble by rolling on a flat surface such as a table saw top. The chuck could also have a wobble in it. Make sure the taper is cleaned and free of dust. I did not see how you were holding the blank. I love the psi pen chuck for true accuracy.  

When drilling you may want to not extend the tailstock so far out. Take smaller increments and keep moving it up that way. Hold the chuck with your left hand as you advance the tailstock. keep the set screw close to being tight. I think you mentioned you do that. 

You could always drill half way and then flip the blank around and drill from the opposite side. If there is any difference you could sand that to the point where the tube slides in. This is all set up though if the blank is true all around and you have dead centers marked on both ends. 

Good luck and look forward to seeing the blank when turned.


----------



## Rounder (Aug 7, 2016)

leehljp said:


> Here is a simple method to get perfect entrance and exit marks on irregular material or perfect on segments:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SAEEaF8z2jM
> (the link originally posted here in 2009, but still works.)
> ...



Interesting technique. But it seems that you could have no play between the tailstock and the ways. (Side to side). Mine has a little. But definitely worth a try.


----------



## Rounder (Aug 7, 2016)

KenV said:


> Randy,
> 
> Glad to take the blame.
> 
> Had a boss years back who told me I would never be a total waste.  I could always serve as a bad example.



LOL.


----------



## Rounder (Aug 7, 2016)

jttheclockman said:


> Randy, I have read some of the suggestions but i would like to step back to the beginning. Yes checking the lathe for level and straightness is a very good thing to do. But also start with the bit being used. I hope it is not a brad point bit. Make sure there is no wobble by rolling on a flat surface such as a table saw top. The chuck could also have a wobble in it. Make sure the taper is cleaned and free of dust. I did not see how you were holding the blank. I love the psi pen chuck for true accuracy.
> 
> When drilling you may want to not extend the tailstock so far out. Take smaller increments and keep moving it up that way. Hold the chuck with your left hand as you advance the tailstock. keep the set screw close to being tight. I think you mentioned you do that.
> 
> ...



Found out early that brad points were not the way to go. I check bits most every time. I don't use them on anything else. I very seldom go more than half way out on the quill. Take short bites then back out. I also grip the chuck with my left hand. I use either a collet chuck or a 4 jaw chuck. Same results with both. Thanks for the suggestions and I will continue on the learning trail. :wink:


----------



## larryc (Aug 8, 2016)

Following this discussion I realize that maybe I was a bit hasty in offering to drill your blanks for you. While I drill on the lathe and have drilled many Dymondwood and Spectraply blanks I have never checked to see if they were drilled "exactly" down the middle. In fact a quick observation of my drilled blanks usually indicates a slightly off-center exit hole. That having been said, I have never been able to look at a blank after it has been turned, finished and assembled that I was able to tell which end was slightly off center.
I suggest you drill one of your blanks and after completing the pen see if you get acceptable results.


----------



## Rounder (Aug 8, 2016)

Davidh14 said:


> Randy,
> I would be glad to help. I use a drill press with a pen vise.
> 
> David



Hey, another Texas guy. I will make a decision when I get home from work this evening. I truly appreciate the offer.


----------



## Rounder (Aug 8, 2016)

larryc said:


> Following this discussion I realize that maybe I was a bit hasty in offering to drill your blanks for you. While I drill on the lathe and have drilled many Dymondwood and Spectraply blanks I have never checked to see if they were drilled "exactly" down the middle. In fact a quick observation of my drilled blanks usually indicates a slightly off-center exit hole. That having been said, I have never been able to look at a blank after it has been turned, finished and assembled that I was able to tell which end was slightly off center.
> I suggest you drill one of your blanks and after completing the pen see if you get acceptable results.



In looking at the blank in the OP, if the hole is not straight, I visualize the pattern not being even once turned. And I may be overthinking it also. Hoping to hear from some of the experienced segmenters to verify my thinking or to debunk it as the case may be.


----------



## jttheclockman (Aug 8, 2016)

Rounder said:


> larryc said:
> 
> 
> > Following this discussion I realize that maybe I was a bit hasty in offering to drill your blanks for you. While I drill on the lathe and have drilled many Dymondwood and Spectraply blanks I have never checked to see if they were drilled "exactly" down the middle. In fact a quick observation of my drilled blanks usually indicates a slightly off-center exit hole. That having been said, I have never been able to look at a blank after it has been turned, finished and assembled that I was able to tell which end was slightly off center.
> ...



Maybe if you post a photo of the blank we can make an assumption.


----------



## KBs Pensnmore (Aug 8, 2016)

Randy, something I do to check that the headstock and tailstock line up, is to use a piece of bright round bar after I've checked it for being straight mounted in the Jacobs chuck and line it up with the headstock chuck with the same size bar.If it checks out OK wind the tailstock out as far as you normally use and check the line again. I know my lathe is out unless I move the chuck end away from me and the handle towards me, there is about 1/16+ movement sideways. Point to point is OK but at a distance it may be out.
Kryn


----------



## Rounder (Aug 8, 2016)

Here is the blank I am talking about having drilled.


----------



## jttheclockman (Aug 8, 2016)

Not sure what you think you are going to get out of that pattern. Depending on what kit you use and how you shape it most of that pattern will be turned away.  What are you filling the voids in with???  I agree you do need to be somewhat centered in order to keep the zigzag pattern a straight line. I have no more suggestions for you. I think it is something you will have to investigate on your own being the lathe is in front of you. Good luck.


----------



## Bill in Buena Park (Aug 8, 2016)

Randy, if I missed it, my apologies - but I don't recall seeing as part of this discussion how you are holding the blank for drilling.  One thing I found out early on when first starting "celtic knot" pens was that the most frequent reason I got off-center drilling was that the blank was not mounted/chucked parallel to the drill bit - it looked fine where the drill started, but on the back end, the blank was not parallel, so came out offcenter.  I was drilling with 4 pin jaws holding my blank, but didn't immediately realize that the blank, if not perfectly square, could shift slightly in the chuck since you can't grip with even pressure on all sides to hold it parallel.  I got better results by ensuring my blanks were square, and improved even more when I moved to a set of 2 pen jaws on my chuck, still ensuring square before chucking; "drill-wander" could be an issue, but that can mostly be fixed by using standard bits that are kept sharp.


----------



## Rounder (Aug 8, 2016)

jttheclockman said:


> Not sure what you think you are going to get out of that pattern. Depending on what kit you use and how you shape it most of that pattern will be turned away.  What are you filling the voids in with???  I agree you do need to be somewhat centered in order to keep the zigzag pattern a straight line. I have no more suggestions for you. I think it is something you will have to investigate on your own being the lathe is in front of you. Good luck.



If you look at the pen from the thread I shared in the original post, that is the pattern that came from the blank posted on page 2 of the shared thread.
The voids will be turned away.
http://www.penturners.org/forum/f13/114-piece-segmented-celtic-pens-142085/


----------



## jttheclockman (Aug 8, 2016)

Randy, I am confused. Are you related the Seth??? Where in that link is your post. If I am looking at the blank you shown wrong, there is no way the voids spin away. I am seeing a thin line of vee shaped angled pieces. Maybe if you turn the blank 90 degrees over. I always did poorly on those tests where you have to fold the boxes. I must be missing something here. It is not the first time or will it be the last time.


----------



## Bob Wemm (Aug 8, 2016)

KBs Pensnmore said:


> Randy, something I do to check that the headstock and tailstock line up, is to use a piece of bright round bar after I've checked it for being straight mounted in the Jacobs chuck and line it up with the headstock chuck with the same size bar.If it checks out OK wind the tailstock out as far as you normally use and check the line again. I know my lathe is out unless I move the chuck end away from me and the handle towards me, there is about 1/16+ movement sideways. Point to point is OK but at a distance it may be out.
> Kryn


 
This is what happens for me, when I bring the tail stock up to the drive head the points match, but there is just a tiny bit of slop in the ways so I reckon that is magnified the further the tailstock is away.
Just my 2 Bobs worth.
Bob.


----------



## Curly (Aug 8, 2016)

John if you look closely at the picture again you will see two pencil lines running across the glue up. When cut on those lines a pen blank emerges.


----------



## Paul in OKC (Aug 8, 2016)

How much are you advancing the bit each time? I would go very small amount, like 1/8" and out. A pain, but may help. All the different woods together will make things walk a bit. If you are rounding and holding in a collet, might try going half way from each end, if that has not already been suggested. Good luck.


----------



## jttheclockman (Aug 8, 2016)

Curly said:


> John if you look closely at the picture again you will see two pencil lines running across the glue up. When cut on those lines a pen blank emerges.




Wow Pete I am going to have my glasses adjusted. I did not see that. It is like one of those puzzles, can you find the lines in this puzzle?? Thanks for pointing that out.:bulgy-eyes: I wish the OP a lot of luck. I can not help any more with the drilling. All suggestions have been outed.


----------



## jttheclockman (Aug 8, 2016)

If you are serious about segmenting I highly suggest this chuck. I use it all the time and it is dead on accurate every time. It takes one part out of the equation when trying to drill straight. 

www.pennstateind.com/store/CSCPENCHK.html


----------



## larryc (Aug 9, 2016)

It still looks like an optical illusion to me.


----------



## Rounder (Aug 9, 2016)

jttheclockman said:


> Randy, I am confused. Are you related the Seth??? Where in that link is your post. If I am looking at the blank you shown wrong, there is no way the voids spin away. I am seeing a thin line of vee shaped angled pieces. Maybe if you turn the blank 90 degrees over. I always did poorly on those tests where you have to fold the boxes. I must be missing something here. It is not the first time or will it be the last time.



LOL, JT, I just went back and viewed the picture of the blank I posted and it is DEFINITELY an optical illusion. The picture is of the side of the blank. What you don't see is the width which is the width of the Spectraply blank. The actual height of the part of the blank you see in the picture is probably over an inch from high point to high point. Should have taken a picture at more of an angle to see that. I can now see how you were confused by what you saw.:biggrin:


----------



## Rounder (Aug 9, 2016)

Bill in Buena Park said:


> Randy, if I missed it, my apologies - but I don't recall seeing as part of this discussion how you are holding the blank for drilling.  One thing I found out early on when first starting "celtic knot" pens was that the most frequent reason I got off-center drilling was that the blank was not mounted/chucked parallel to the drill bit - it looked fine where the drill started, but on the back end, the blank was not parallel, so came out offcenter.  I was drilling with 4 pin jaws holding my blank, but didn't immediately realize that the blank, if not perfectly square, could shift slightly in the chuck since you can't grip with even pressure on all sides to hold it parallel.  I got better results by ensuring my blanks were square, and improved even more when I moved to a set of 2 pen jaws on my chuck, still ensuring square before chucking; "drill-wander" could be an issue, but that can mostly be fixed by using standard bits that are kept sharp.



I use either a 4 jaw chuck or a collet chuck.


----------



## Rounder (Aug 9, 2016)

I want to ABSOLUTELY thank everyone for all of the reply's and suggestions. They have all been helpful and given me more insight in what to look for in doing this properly. This is exactly what makes this sight so great and worth coming too. People.


----------



## Rounder (Aug 9, 2016)

Davidh14 said:


> Randy,
> I would be glad to help. I use a drill press with a pen vise.
> 
> David



David, if you can do this for me, it would be greatly appreciated. If you will PM me the shipping info I will get this on the way with all the goodies mentioned in the OP.


----------



## leehljp (Aug 9, 2016)

Rounder said:


> Here is the blank I am talking about having drilled.



Randy,

Once I saw the blank, memories came back to me of a pen I worked on some years ago.
http://www.penturners.org/forum/f13/ss-baron-penstripe-33138/

With the one in the link, everything was perfect. Some fellows here asked me to describe how I did it. I did in detail on two or three PMs. A week or two later, I get a couple of PMs saying that they must be doing something wrong. I try to go into more detail, but I get another PM later saying it just isn't working for them. 

I decided to make another pin stripe pen and detail and photo each step. 1st blank off center at the exit, maybe a millimeter; 2nd blank, same thing; 3rd blank - .5 mm OC.; 4th blank lines not parallel, 5th blank blew up. 

I just got lucky on the first one. After the fifth, I had an idea of what I might be doing wrong. I was measuring and trying to get within .005 tolerance of square, but barely perceptively, not square, more rectangular. Along this line, I also noted in one post in the last two weeks, one fellow stating that he tries to hold his individual laminates to within .001. I had 5 times more error in my measurements.  That, plus almost imperceptible out of square, will lead to errors of several kind. 

That said, your picture is somewhat fuzzy and it is hard to tell exactly, but your tolerances look like they may not close enough to get what you want from even from the chuck. Locking an un-square blank can throw things off.

I made a sled for my table top saw and made it to the point that I could make adjustments up to .002 when squaring blanks. I also use my jointer on occasion to get two side at 90°. Off square or rectangular blank ends can result in off center exits. I am not sure this is your problem or not, but thought I would mention it.


----------



## Rounder (Aug 9, 2016)

leehljp said:


> Rounder said:
> 
> 
> > Here is the blank I am talking about having drilled.
> ...



I have been trying to figure out how I am going to cut it square. I don't have a table saw. I do have a compound miter saw but not too sure I can cut it square enough. But I am working on making something to hold it 90 degrees to the blade and be able to do that. We shall see. Thanks for the info.


----------



## KenV (Aug 9, 2016)

Randy,  one of the best known segmented turners cuts his pieces with a festool sliding miter saw AND AN AUXILLARY FENCE/TRAY and clamps.   Malcomb Tibbits aka tahoeturner.  

Zero clearance fence and bed combined with clamps and a very sharp blade.  Get close and sand to final dimensions as needed.


----------



## Rounder (Aug 9, 2016)

KenV said:


> Randy,  one of the best known segmented turners cuts his pieces with a festool sliding miter saw AND AN AUXILLARY FENCE/TRAY and clamps.   Malcomb Tibbits aka tahoeturner.
> 
> Zero clearance fence and bed combined with clamps and a very sharp blade.  Get close and sand to final dimensions as needed.




I actually used a hand miter saw to cut the angles. Have been trying to figure how to hold it in place to cut along the long side but nothing satisfactory yet. I will have to look at the Festool. Thanks.


----------



## corgicoupe (Aug 9, 2016)

Consider using a hand plane to square the blank. I haven't tried it, but a 4-jaw chuck might work like the 2-jaw chuck JT suggested if two opposing corners of the blank were planed down so only two of the four jaws actually grip the blank. [This is only a _thought experiment_, but I plan to try it myself.]


----------



## Curly (Aug 9, 2016)

There has to be a woodworking club near you. Someone in there will have a good table saw, that can make a quick sled if they don't already have one, willing to cut your blank. They would also likely have a drill press too.


----------



## jttheclockman (Aug 9, 2016)

If you do not have a table saw then you are not buying a Kapex festool saw. Do you have a bandsaw?? You can do beautiful segmenting with a bandsaw. With the proper jigs and proper blade, you can do wonders. If all you have is a handheld miter saw then I would suggest you start looking to build your tool inventory if you are serious about any type segmenting. A disc sander is a huge help also.


www.festoolproducts.com/Festool-561287-Kapex-KS-120-Sliding-Compound-Miter-p/561287.htm


----------



## More4dan (Aug 16, 2016)

I aligned the headstock and tailstock to less than a 1/1000 on my metal lathe and had one drill about an 1/8" off center exiting the headstock end.  Traced it back to a drill bit that wasn't sharpened equally on both sides putting the center point off center.  Had a similar thing happen using a brad point bit after drilling a pilot hole.  The brad point bit uses the center tip to hold it on path and will walk/chatter when it there isn't material for the center to "hold".

Danny


----------

