# Help Understanding Refills



## ghansen4 (Mar 28, 2018)

Can anyone help me understand the different terminology used when discussing refills? I've seen mention of cross, Parker, Schmidt, etc. I think some of those are brands and some are styles?

My reason for asking is that I haven't been very happy with the ballpoint refills that come standard with the kits. It feels like I make a nice quality pen but it doesn't write well! I would like to purchase some nicer refills but obviously need to understand the terminology first so I can be sure to get the right style and quality.


----------



## magpens (Mar 28, 2018)

Cross is a brand name .... and also used loosely as a style

Parker is a brand name .... and also used loosely as a style

Schmidt is a brand name .... can be in the style of Parker ballpoint or can be a rollerball which has different geometry

Your best non-Parker brand, but Parker compatibles are "Schmidt" and "Private Reserve", but within those alternative brand names you also have model numbers so you have to select which model you want with price as a guide to quality ... my opinions here.

This is my opinion only.  There are "Dayacom" brand Parker-like refills; these tend to be considerably better than the generic Parker-like refills that come with many kits from the largest vendor. .  Dayacom refills come with the Dayacom pen kits which are also a superior quality pen kit ... I do not think you can buy Dayacom refills separately from their kits but I stand to be corrected on this.

Dayacom pen kits are my go-to where possible but there are some exceptions.

Some of the vendors, one in particular, have their own house-brand kits manufactured to their own specs and, in general, these are very good also and they come in vendor-specific kit names which you have to get used to. 

While some vendors tell you up-front that they are selling Dayacom kits, other vendors do not ..... so be sure to ask if you are concerned about quality in the kits you buy.  There are plenty of no-name-brand kits on the market and you have to be savvy/careful.

It is sometimes hard to tell what exactly you are buying because names of kits get changed by some vendors and kit names also get made up by some vendors.  

Even some Dayacom kits get sold by different vendors under a variety of names.  
It is not practical to buy directly from Dayacom because of the large Minimum Order Quantity (MOQ) that they require, but you can look on their (somewhat hard to use) website at Dayacom.com to get an idea of what they manufacture although not all of their products are stocked by vendors we most frequently have access to here.

Hope this helps. . There are some vendor forums on IAP and you should also consult those forums ... highly recommended ... see the little dark blue boxes at the top of this page.

I realize that I have gone beyond the scope of your question; it is hard to talk about refills without talking a bit about kits.

You can google "ballpoint pen refills"; you can search the websites of many pen companies; it can become overwhelming.


----------



## jttheclockman (Mar 29, 2018)

Have no idea what Mal said and where he was going. He started out correct and on point.

This may help and it is in the library
http://content.penturners.org/library/general_reference/refill_size_comparison_guide.pdf


A link, many threads on refills in the search mode here. Too many to list for you. Type in Differences between refills. So many different names now it is hard to know what is what. But size of refill can be a good starting point but be careful because some refills are China imports and can be of different lengths for certain kits. It is a jungle out there. 

http://www.penturners.org/forum/f14/what-refill-what-59578/

http://www.penturners.org/forum/f56/what-your-opinion-who-makes-best-pen-refills-146042/


Not sure what kits you are referring to but many of the kits I use today the refills that come with the kit is not bad at all. I give a person the choice at a show if they want to switch as I let them write with different refills. Also weather they want blue or black. Never kept score on that one.


----------



## PenPal (Mar 29, 2018)

A very clear statement re refills etc can be found on Beaufort in the UK who also have an agent of strength in the USA.

Peter.


----------



## magpens (Mar 29, 2018)

Thank you, Peter. . It is good to know about that. . I am sure the OP will appreciate your info as well.

You are always so constructive and helpful in your suggestions and comments, Peter !
Thank you for that too !


----------



## TonyL (Mar 29, 2018)

Has any tried the Schmidt Capless refills?


----------



## nativewooder (Mar 29, 2018)

*refills*

What I did when I was making pens of all shapes and sizes was to open an account with Exotic Blanks as they seemed to have the largest variety of materiels.  Good people to talk to and do business with.  I always included the best refills with the pens I sold to avoid possible problems.  While there are other dealers who also carry top of the line materiels, and I suggest you look up all the vendors if that is your "thing".


----------



## Roger Schlenz (Apr 1, 2018)

*Schmidt also makes a Cross-style refill*

Schmidt also makes a Cross-style refill, the C 600 M, under the Private Reserve brand.  Excellent refill.


----------



## ed4copies (Apr 1, 2018)

Roger Schlenz said:


> Schmidt also makes a Cross-style refill, the C 600 M, under the Private Reserve brand.  Excellent refill.




I have asked Schmidt no less than five times--they make NO Cross-style refills!


----------



## magpens (Apr 1, 2018)

Really, Ed ?  I believe you.  I understand it's a matter in your interest to know.  But... what do you make of this ... ?

http://www.lanierpens.com/Schmidt_C600_Blue_p/scc600blue.htm

and this

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Black-Ink-...ll-C-600-M-Cross-Style-2-Pieces-/181823538139

and this

https://www.amazon.com/Black-Schmidt-German-Refill-Pieces/dp/B00KB8KO2K

and this

https://www.amazon.com/Black-Schmidt-German-Refill-Pieces/product-reviews/B00KB8KO2K

I see that there are no customer reviews so it must be a fake ad on the part of amazon, or maybe it is meant to be an all-encompassing ad title and the content has never been completely fleshed out.


----------



## jttheclockman (Apr 1, 2018)

ed4copies said:


> Roger Schlenz said:
> 
> 
> > Schmidt also makes a Cross-style refill, the C 600 M, under the Private Reserve brand.  Excellent refill.
> ...



Do not know what to make of this then. Is there a company using the Schmidt Name??

www.ebay.com/itm/Black-Ink-Schmidt-...ll-C-600-M-Cross-Style-2-Pieces-/181823538139


Schmidt C600 Cross Style Ballpoint Refill, Schmidt C600 Ballpoint Refill – Lanier Pens

Black Ink Schmidt German Ball Pen Refill C 600 M Cross Style Two Pieces [1Mcdc0710572] - $28.99


I see Mal was searching as well as I. Not sure what to make of this then. Have to send our reporters out to investigate.


----------



## monophoto (Apr 1, 2018)

Many fountain pen kits originating in Asia contain nibs marked 'Iridium Point - Germany' (of IPG) even though they aren't made in Germany and iridium is no longer actually used as tipping material (today, tipping metal is most often either plathenium or osmiridium, so some combination of those which is harder and less expensive than pure iridium).  As Brian Gray notes on his web page, when a nib is marked "IPG', the most that one can infer is that the material from which it was made might have been purchased from a supplier in Germany.

I wonder if there is a similar issue with Cross-style ballpoint refills.

The e-Bay ad includes a purchaser review that states that these refills are actually made in Taiwan and that they are pretty crappy.  I'm not a big-time pen-maker, but I have looked at a few that I have made and the 'Cross-style' refills aren't marked in any way.


----------



## ed4copies (Apr 1, 2018)

At one time there was a picture of a refill on one of the above sites,

The refill said SCHIMDT note IMDT, not MIDT

I sent this pic to Schmidt, I have no idea what happened.

I would LOVE to handle a Cross style refill truly made by Schmidt.   We place sizeable orders with them regularly.  Every time I have asked about a cross-style they have replied that they do NOT make one!

Try emailing Schmidt directly--if you get a different answer, please send me the email, so I know who to talk with to get the refill!!

Thanks


----------



## Curly (Apr 1, 2018)

Just curious. Is a genuine Cross refill any better than the generic ones supplied in kits?


----------



## ed4copies (Apr 1, 2018)

I have sent an email and the link to our Schmidt contact.  I have asked her for permission to post her answer (whatever it may be) here.  Since they are 6 hours ahead of us, I suspect I will get an answer early Monday.

Just as a point of information, I CAN purchase refills from China that SAY "Cross" on them.  They are about six cents each--should I buy them and advertise them as "Cross" refills?  If I do, I am very likely violating Copyright law in the USA, since it is very unlikely these are really made by Cross.  Part of the responsibility ExoticBlanks has is to BELIEVE, in good business sense that what we say SHOULD be true.  Not all businesses take this responsibility as their obligation!

We will see what Schmidt has to say.

Add in:  I found one email I got from them 9-19-16 which says they have not made a cross style for about 10 years (meaning production stopped in 2006, but there COULD still be refills that are "New").  Again, we will see what Schmidt says.


----------



## jttheclockman (Apr 1, 2018)

I believe something is hincky because even Lanier pens which is pretty respected now has on their site that the name of the refilL is SCHMIDT-MINE C 600 aGerman refill. Who is or what is the Company Schmidt-Mine??? 

Maybe you can ask your reps ED, if they have run into a fake company using part of their name and is there any legal action being taken if there can be.  

There may lie the disconnection.


----------



## Phil Dart (Apr 1, 2018)

Ed is perfectly correct when he says that Schmidt do not make Cross style refills. They do not.

For an explanation of refills and what make some are better than others, have a read here. 

Beaufort Ink technical info

Apart from differences in quality and materials which the link above discusses, the refills supplied with pen kits very often contain very little ink at all, being mostly hollow space and stale air.

It is possible for the unscrupulous, if buying them in sufficient quantities, to have Chinese refills branded with more or less what ever they wish - selling them however. may lead to legal issues.

Apart from the proprietary brands whose names are given to the styles themselves, ie, Cross and Parker, there are a small number of pen manufacturers who make them, but outside of that, within the artisan pen making world, there are only three main players to the best of my knowledge, who are Schmidt, Private Reserve and Beaufort Ink.


----------



## jttheclockman (Apr 1, 2018)

Phil Dart said:


> Ed is perfectly correct when he says that Schmidt do not make Cross style refills. They do not.
> 
> For an explanation of refills and what make some are better than others, have a read here.
> 
> ...




Not sure about this

What about all the rollerball refills on the market??  

Here another interesting read. Lots of names in there. So you are saying 3 companies make over 100 different styled ink refills and all the rollerballs on the market. Why do I find that hard to believe. 



The Epic Refill Reference Guide: Rollerball, Gel and Ballpoints – The Well-Appointed Desk


----------



## Dieseldoc (Apr 2, 2018)

jttheclockman said:


> Phil Dart said:
> 
> 
> > Ed is perfectly correct when he says that Schmidt do not make Cross style refills. They do not.
> ...



John:
 great information and thanks for sharing.

Cheers
Charlie


----------



## jttheclockman (Apr 2, 2018)

Within my last link there is also this nugget. Do not just limit yourself to vendors here. Many options out there.  

www.refillfinder.com/collections/ballpoint-refills


----------



## Brotherdale (Apr 2, 2018)

I have been using a Faber-Castell refill (parker style) for about a year now. It is my favorite. I switch it from the pen I was carrying to the pen I will be carrying. But I am not selling them. They may be a bit pricey for most sellers an about $6 each.
If I sell a pen I put either the Schmidt P900 or P9000 easy flow.


----------



## Phil Dart (Apr 3, 2018)

jttheclockman said:


> Not sure about this
> 
> What about all the rollerball refills on the market??
> 
> ...


My statement was in regard to Cross style and Parker style refills, It is factually correct. To save you the bother of finding it on a previous page to establish where you might have mis-understood,  it states:

"Apart from the proprietary brands whose names are given to the styles themselves, ie, Cross and Parker, there are a small number of pen manufacturers who make them, but outside of that, within the artisan pen making world, there are only three main players to the best of my knowledge, who are Schmidt, Private Reserve and Beaufort Ink."

You link simply serves to re-iterate that.


----------



## jttheclockman (Apr 3, 2018)

I will stand by my statement in case you want to reread it it is on the second page. Hope that helps YOU!!!


----------

