# No brass tubes?



## corgicoupe (Feb 9, 2017)

Has anyone successfully turned a wood pen without using the brass tubes? The components would have to be glued in to avoid splitting the wood, and the turning might also be tricky.


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## Skie_M (Feb 9, 2017)

Rather than the 7mm bit, drill with a 1/4" bit and it fits on the mandrel shaft easily enough ...  I use this method to turn large beads.  The parts should barely fit inside and need a little CA glue to stay in place.

Also, you can drill with the normal 7mm bit and instead of using the whole tube, you can use just enough for the parts to press into and glue those sections into each end of the barrel.  Makes for a very interesting look if using a semi-clear acrylic or wood that has holes through it all over the place ... you'll see the refill inside the barrel, though.


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## jttheclockman (Feb 9, 2017)

The problem there is wood movement. Maybe if you stabilize the wood with a whole bunch of plastics but my question would be why.???  We have enough problems when we use tubes and now you want to avoid them and glue the parts in. Too much stress on the wood. This is done with metal pen blanks though.


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## BCnabe (Feb 9, 2017)

A few months ago I made a pencil with the "guts" from a Pentel mechanical pencil - no brass tube in it.  The blank was about 4 3/8" long.

So far, so good.


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## farmer (Feb 9, 2017)

*Pens*



corgicoupe said:


> Has anyone successfully turned a wood pen without using the brass tubes? The components would have to be glued in to avoid splitting the wood, and the turning might also be tricky.


Very first pen I made didn't have a brass tube ,
Its segmented, my wife still has it ...


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## BRobbins629 (Feb 9, 2017)

Many times.  Here are a just few still in service

http://www.penturners.org/forum/f13/pith-chrissy-fisher-104005/

http://www.penturners.org/forum/f13/rosewood-burl-ebony-clip-135199/

Http://www.penturners.org/forum/f13/mesquite-burl-ca-square-threads-92720/


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## corgicoupe (Feb 9, 2017)

jttheclockman said:


> The problem there is wood movement. Maybe if you stabilize the wood with a whole bunch of plastics but my question would be why.???  We have enough problems when we use tubes and now you want to avoid them and glue the parts in. Too much stress on the wood. This is done with metal pen blanks though.



The reason being to reduce the weight to something like that of vintage pens.


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## skiprat (Feb 9, 2017)

I personally think the weight saved from the lack of a tube is mostly negated by the remaining  blank material therefore getting a smaller hole. To me the tube primarily acts as a skeleton and gives the pen far more strength. A tubed blank is in affect, a lamination and laminations are considered stronger than the sum of their parts. It also is generally the precise size for the kit part and as the parts arent glued in, they can also be removed if required. I know we all differ, but for me, I just can't see any real advantage of not using the tube. 
Just my opinion....:wink:


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## corgicoupe (Feb 9, 2017)

Do those making kit less pens use tubes? I saw this as a move toward kitless, particularly if one makes it closed end.


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## Skie_M (Feb 9, 2017)

Kitless pens generally don't use tubes ... they usually thread connections between barrel sections and/or press fit the section that carries the rollerball or fountain pen works.


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## jalbert (Feb 9, 2017)

corgicoupe said:


> Do those making kit less pens use tubes? I saw this as a move toward kitless, particularly if one makes it closed end.



I've seen some use them before. Personally I essentially make a pen from ebonite or acrylic, then turn down a section of the barrel and cap to accept a wooden sleeve. That's how this one, for example, was made. 
http://www.penturners.org/forum/f13/blackwood-vintage-cellulose-acetate-145190/


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## bmachin (Feb 9, 2017)

I was going to say something and maybe will later, but for now; we all need to get out more:
http:

//www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/317611-all-wood-fountain-pens/

Bill


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## jttheclockman (Feb 9, 2017)

bmachin said:


> I was going to say something and maybe will later, but for now; we all need to get out more:
> http:
> 
> //www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/317611-all-wood-fountain-pens/
> ...




Not sure what you mean by this. Please do not be so cryptic. 

I was just out today to shovel the 6" of snow we got. Came back in after it was done. Probably will go out again tomorrow.:biggrin::biggrin:

I agree with Skip about his take on the tubes. You asked about WOOD pens so my answer was based on that. Kitless pens are another type of pen that basically uses threaded components and you are not threading wood unless that wood is stabilized which I mentioned. Use of metal and acrylics is a better chance because wood does move and will always move. But with that said do a few and show us the results. We always like to see photos.

As far as weight goes that is so negligible and as Skip said probably canceled by the more mass of the remaining wood.


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## bmachin (Feb 10, 2017)

You're right John. I was a little too cryptic.  What I should have said was most of us tend to stay too close to home (i. e. IAP).  There is a some really nice work that is posted at Fountain Pen Network that is not posted here although not nearly the quantity.  There are a few who post both places, but not many.  That's all I meant by saying we need to get out more. 

The link I posted is to a group of pens that are entirely wood with the exception of nibs, feeds, clips and decoration.  In addition the maker goes into quite a bit of detail on his techniques and the longevity of his pens.  Considering the topic of this thread, I thought it was worth a mention.

Here is the link again.

All-Wood Fountain Pens - Pen Turning and Making - The Fountain Pen Network

Bill


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## keithlong (Feb 10, 2017)

You can make tubeless pens by making what is called the 12 cent pen, it is basically a pen refill removed from a bic pen, one with the plastic cap on it, just google it and you can find videos on it or capt eddie has a video on making them, they are easy to make, but you will need a 6 inch 5/32 drill bit.


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## More4dan (Feb 11, 2017)

I've done a Zen kit without tubes. Just glued the ends to the wood. I was concerned drilling the drum stick I used to the brass OD so I drilled to the tube ID. 






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## jttheclockman (Feb 11, 2017)

More4dan said:


> I've done a Zen kit without tubes. Just glued the ends to the wood. I was concerned drilling the drum stick I used to the brass OD so I drilled to the tube ID.
> 
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That is pretty nice looking. I am guessing then you only drilled deep enough to accept the components and then drilled a center hole to accept the refill???  Am I correct in this??? What glue did you use to glue the parts in with??  Thanks for showing

After rereading your post I now do not understand your thinking. If you drilled the blank to the inside measurements as opposed to outside we are talking what a step up in size of bit. It would be such a small difference and you left the blank proud of the components any way which gave it more meat to compensate. I would think a drum stick is a pretty strong piece of wood. I maybe missing something here.


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## More4dan (Feb 11, 2017)

I did drill a smaller hole through blank and only opened up the ends to fit the components using a boring bar to limit stress on the wood. Glued with Medium CA. 


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## farmer (Feb 11, 2017)

*The subject of threading wood on a tubeless pen .*

There is allot of different ways to thread wood ....

There is a way to modify certain  cue/metal  lathes where they can machine/live cut any male or female threads on wood without having to stabilize the wood or use the lathes auto feed system and without turning the lathe on ..:biggrin:

Sorry I don't have any pictures of the technic.
I have been live cutting 3/8x 10 female threads in my pool cue shafts for years.
You can also cut flat minors into the thread  if you cut the threads using a slitting saw and cut the threads in a single pass .


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## corgicoupe (Feb 11, 2017)

I really like the solutions of John Albert and pierre, but will probably have to opt for that of More4dan, since the former would require purchase of a metal lathe with threading capabilities. One other idea I've been contemplating is using an Esterbrook section friction fitted in a wood barrel, making it an eyedropper.


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## More4dan (Feb 11, 2017)

corgicoupe said:


> I really like the solutions of John Albert and pierre, but will probably have to opt for that of More4dan, since the former would require purchase of a metal lathe with threading capabilities. One other idea I've been contemplating is using an Esterbrook section friction fitted in a wood barrel, making it an eyedropper.





Taps and dies would allow you to thread on a wood lathe using guides in the tailstock. It's about all I do now for threads with my metal lathe.  The only exception is I do thread with the lathe to make taps for nonstandard threads, like Nib feeds and commercial front sections that are 8.5mm and 9.5mm in various pitches. 

Danny


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## Maverick KB (Feb 13, 2017)

Sure! Here's a "kitless" I did recently for a Sharpie pen refill in Chechen. No tubes, but as it's already been mentioned, the tubes give them structural integrity, like a skeleton. This pen was just a quick project to scratch an itch I had, but the lack of tubes gave me issues. I had to practically soak the body in CA at one point due to cracking. 

It is possible and this one is holding up well for now, but it isn't as sturdy or durable as it could have been with some brass or something inside. While I'm fairly pleased with this little experiment, I won't do it the same way next time. That's the beauty of it. It's your creation, try anything and everything once. You'll likely learn something along the way. 


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## corgicoupe (Feb 13, 2017)

That's what I have in mind for the Esterbrook section and nib. Wood choice will be important to minimize cracking or splitting.


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## corgicoupe (Feb 13, 2017)

More4dan said:


> corgicoupe said:
> 
> 
> > I really like the solutions of John Albert and pierre, but will probably have to opt for that of More4dan, since the former would require purchase of a metal lathe with threading capabilities. One other idea I've been contemplating is using an Esterbrook section friction fitted in a wood barrel, making it an eyedropper.
> ...



Please explain how you accomplish the tap and die threading.


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## farmer (Feb 13, 2017)

*Taps and dies*



corgicoupe said:


> More4dan said:
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> > corgicoupe said:
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You have never operated a tap or die and have no idea how to use them ??...
How about a  set of dial or digital calipers, or a outside micrometer  ?


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## More4dan (Feb 13, 2017)

farmer said:


> corgicoupe said:
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> > More4dan said:
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I never used taps nor dies until I did. Poorly at first and many times after.  Practice on scrap material. You will do better on acrylic or aluminum. I've never had much luck on wood. The fine threads we use for pens don't hold up well in wood. You could turn bushing from a better material and glue inside your wood then cut the threads. 

A tap works like a self tapping screw that creates the inside threads as you thread it in. There is a guide that goes into the tailstock that can help keep the tap inline with the pen. 

The die is a round disc with threads cut on the inside. You thread it on the outside diameter like putting a nut on a bolt. Again there are guide and holders that attach to the tail stock to keep it aligned. Alignment is critical for pen threading. Both guides can be purchased from 

www.littlemachineshop.com 

Look up lathe tap guide and lathe die holder.  

Also search this site for tutorials on kitless pens. It will show how the taps and dies are used. Google tap drill sizes to see what size the hole needs to be for tapping. Too small and the threads you cut will strip out as the tap progresses leaving a larger smooth hole. 

The same will happen with the outside thread if you start with the OD too large. 

Practice on scrap with similar material as your pen. 




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## jttheclockman (Feb 13, 2017)

What a lot of people do when tapping wood is to coat with CA after they are tapped and then when dried run the tap again. The CA will strengthen the threads. Do need to check the library for tutorials on this stuff. Or check utube. A lot to explain in a short amount of space. If you then have specific questions it helps with the answers.


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## farmer (Feb 14, 2017)

*Mechanical stuff*



More4dan said:


> farmer said:
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> > corgicoupe said:
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My grandfather could make anything and me and him was buds .
My father was a machinist .
Also grew up on a dairy farm , we were always wrenching on those old Jonny poppers and  a D4 cat dozer and hand crank tractors .

I learned early and guess I take certain things I had to do growing for granted .

I wasn't trying to give the op a hard time , but there is tons of info on how to use tapes and dies on you tube !


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## corgicoupe (Feb 15, 2017)

farmer said:


> corgicoupe said:
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> > More4dan said:
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Oh, I have used taps and dies on numerous occasions, but never on wood and never using the tail stock of a wood lathe. Calipers and micrometers are not foreign to me.


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## farmer (Feb 16, 2017)

*Taps and dies*



corgicoupe said:


> farmer said:
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> > corgicoupe said:
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That's gives a starting point where someone can work with you ...

Here is the problem , taps and dies tend to tear the wood ......

I have no issues taping the threads into one of my cue shafts and the butt of my cues are tapped 10 to 12 inches for weight bolts ..

I put some kind of grease on the wood I am threading , on female threads I will grease the whole and the tap .

I use my hand and move the lathe  chuck back and forth to thread the wood .
Never get in a hurry and only cut a 1/4 turn and then back off a little and clean the tap and die constantly and re grease ..

I have copied someone else is idea on how to live cut threads on a metal lathe without turning the lathe on.
Does a very impressive job.

I would try to use a quality made tap or die . shaper the better and don't ever use that tap on metal ,, just keep the tap or die special .

Don't horse the wood ,, 

For wood I like coarse threads and will cut special threads in wood like 8 TPI and grease and wax the **** out of the threads ...


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## corgicoupe (Feb 17, 2017)

Thanks, I'll give that a try. Will report back with results.


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