# Personal Attacks



## ROOKIETURNER (Jul 31, 2010)

Wow, the title alone should get the MOD's attention.

Recently I have had a few posts deleted and the reason given was that I violated the "Personal Attack" policy.

Here is the policy as writting in the AUP:

*No personal attacks.* Criticize ideas, not people. Flaming will not be tolerated. Broad, negative statements about individuals or businesses are not permitted.

What is your interpretation of this policy? Can we criticize a group of PEOPLE? Or is it just one person?
 
Any and all thoughts are welcome.
 
Thanks,
 
Rob


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## Jim Smith (Jul 31, 2010)

My interpertation is that you behave in the same manner that you would if you were a guest in someone's house who didn't appreciate personal attacks against themselves or others, including other groups of people.  Personal attacks provide no positive, constructive input which is what most people come to IAP for.  Think about a time when you were personally attacked either in person or via a forum like this one.  Was it helpful?  Did you learn anything positive that you could use in the future?  If your answer is no, then perhaps others feel that same way and that personal attacks serve no real purpose on this or any forum.  Just my 2 cents worth.

Jim Smith


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## Lenny (Jul 31, 2010)

Why do you want to criticize anyone? 

Go turn a pen!


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## bad (Jul 31, 2010)

My interpretation of the policy would be simply:
If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all.


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## GaryMGg (Jul 31, 2010)

> Criticize ideas, not people.


I think that right there explains it pretty well.

I haven't seen any of the post(s) which you're referring to so I can't give you a specific example of how to make your point within AUP boundaries. 

You or I might not like what someone else does but they may have the right to do it -- I could go political here but will refrain from causing trouble. :wink:

Bear in mind, you can tell someone what you think of their behavior without being insulting. In other words, I believe you can criticize the
choice, decision, or action they chose to take because it's an implementation of the idea. And, you can do that without berating the individual or group.


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## Mark (Jul 31, 2010)

For me (personally), the only critical statement I'll make is if someone asks for feedback on their work and there is obviously something that can be improved. I hope they appreciate it and don't take it the wrong way. I know I appreciate the critique I've received in the past, on this fine forum.

I don't see where a critical attitude is ever needed on the forum toward a  particular person or business. That should be handled privately between the two parties involved. If one has a problem with a group of people, I don't see where the forum is a place to air that either. Again, that is something that needs to be dealt with personally. Not by the forum.

I suppose asking for opinions in a casual conversation could be okay, but those conversations always explode - either way.

Just my $.02 and not everyone's view on this matter will be the same.

Good Luck.


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## Craftdiggity (Jul 31, 2010)

Unfortunately, criticizing ideas is more or less considered the same as criticizing a person.  At least that is the way it is usually taken.  I try to get my point across respectfully, but truthfully.  Sometimes it doesn't come off that way.


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## Mack C. (Jul 31, 2010)

bad said:


> My interpretation of the policy would be simply:
> If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all.


I'm with Bruce on this one. It's a pen turning forum.

You know I've never read the policy, and I really have no need or interest to.


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## GaryMGg (Jul 31, 2010)

bad said:


> My interpretation of the policy would be simply:
> If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all.


 
What is "nice"? Here are a few thoughts on what's nice:
At times, I listen to Dave Ramsey on the radio. People with financial problems call in and ask for advice based on actions they've taken.
When they do something he believes is stupid, he tells them it's stupid.
He's helping them. Saying nothing would not be "nice."
When no one tells the alcoholic he's screwing up his life and those around him, that's not being "nice."

IF someone posts something and asks for a response, it may be they *really* want to know what we think.

Remember, there's also an Off-Topic forum [Casual Converstion] here which has nothing to do with pens wherein some of us
converse to share good news, seek advice, or **** & Moan about whatever :biggrin:


Honey, do these jeans make my butt look big?


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## soligen (Jul 31, 2010)

Mack C. in Brooklin (Whitby) ON said:


> You know I've never read the policy, and I really have no need or interest to.


 
Same here.  If you treat everyone with respect and dignity, you will rarely go wrong.  Any conflict you have with an individual is best worked out in private - not an open forum.  I also realize (once emotion settles down) that issues I have with someone is as much my own issue comming up to bite me as it is theirs.


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## soligen (Jul 31, 2010)

GaryMGg said:


> People with financial problems call in and ask for advice based on actions they've taken.
> When they do something he believes is stupid, he tells them it's stupid.


 
I've never listened to this guy, but there are actually nice ways to tell someone they are doing something stupid - but it take great effort to accomplish this in the written word.

Two of the things we lack in an on-line forum is tone of voice and body language.  Both, when combined with the words make a huge difference to the way the words are percieved.  2/3 of our communication potential is not available to us.

Telling somene they are acting stupid with a caring tone and a worried look on you face shows them it is out of sincere concern for their well being, and can open a meaningful dialog.  Write the same in a letter or forum and they are insulted and not likely to ever "talk" to you again.  The intensions dont come through.

The point is that in writing on the forum it takes great care to avoid percieved insults - you almost have to write a dissertation to explain your intents before making your statement (to substitute for tone and body language).

Unless its an extremely important point, I try to avoid the dissertation by trying to avoid being critical - its just much easier.


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## jimm1 (Jul 31, 2010)

I like what Mack C says: 

"You know I've never read the policy, and I really have no need or interest to."

You know, there is enough crap going on in this world to go around. Here, why can't we all just stick to our pen turning. It's all art. If you like it, great. If you don't that's fine too. Talk about the product, not the artist.

*God Bless You All*.
Jim


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## Bree (Jul 31, 2010)

ROOKIETURNER said:


> Wow, the title alone should get the MOD's attention.
> 
> Recently I have had a few posts deleted and the reason given was that I violated the "Personal Attack" policy.
> 
> ...


 
Seems clear enough Rob... don't make negativity PERSONAL.  Whether it is an individual or a group that people belong to, comments focused on PEOPLE and not ISSUES become PERSONAL.  When they are negative and hostile they precipate arguments, name calling, fights, and a host of other problems that affect the order and peace of all subscribers on the system.  For the good of all, the management has forbidden such behavior.

If someone wants to duke it out in words with someone... go outside. 
:wink::wink::wink:


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## ROOKIETURNER (Jul 31, 2010)

Lenny said:


> Why do you want to criticize anyone?
> 
> Go turn a pen!


 
Here, here! The last post that was deleted was because I had enough of a certain person criticizing a group for not participating in an IAP event. I basically told him to mind his own business and be happy that there were a lot of members participating. I may have thrown in a line about taking off your panties...so that was uncalled for, and good reason to delete my post.

But I am just trying to understand everyones perspective so that maybe the Mods will understand what we expect from the rule.

My motto is that if it is negative and not good for IAP we shouldn't keep it up. If the tone of the thread goes south, it should be removed. JMHO.


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## mredburn (Jul 31, 2010)

My interpretation and most of the other members interpretations are of no consequence. We, the general membership are not charged with enforcing the policy so while we may have an opinion we only need to know the moderators interpretations and abide by them.


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## ed4copies (Jul 31, 2010)

ROOKIETURNER said:


> Here, here! The last post that was deleted was because I had enough of a certain person criticizing a group for not participating in an IAP event. I basically told him to mind his own business and be happy that there were a lot of members participating. I may have thrown in a line about taking off your panties...so that was uncalled for, and good reason to delete my post.
> 
> But I am just trying to understand everyones perspective so that maybe the Mods will understand what we expect from the rule.
> 
> My motto is that if it is negative and not good for IAP we shouldn't keep it up. If the tone of the thread goes south, it should be removed. JMHO.



This is precisely where you differ with the TOS and AUP.  

The IAP does not say the thread should be deleted because it's TONE is perceived as less than ideal.  The IAP relies on its members, mostly adults, to refine the thread.  When it starts going south, most of us can SEE that.  NOW, instead of pushing it farther south, step in to try to warn the group that they are "on the line".

To my way of thinking, a group of adults should not NEED a moderator.  The group standards SHOULD moderate a "warm" situation.  We all respect each other---and no one is forced to react immediately on a "typed page".  Go have a drink of lemonade, and cool off.  Then come back and impress the IAP with your moderate and "coolly thought out" expression of ideas.

A deleted thread indicates this "body of people" could not moderate THEMSELVES.  To me, that reflects VERY POORLY on ALL of us.  And Curtis takes his responsibility very seriously, so he will only delete when TOS and/or AUP give him no choice.  At which time, the IAP body as a whole has FAILED!!!

Let's avoid failure, ok???


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## ROOKIETURNER (Jul 31, 2010)

mredburn said:


> My interpretation and most of the other members interpretations are of no consequence. We, the general membership are not charged with enforcing the policy so while we may have an opinion we only need to know the moderators interpretations and abide by them.


 
While I agree, I think it important to know where the membership stands on the policy. I had a post deleted and the MOD stated the first reason it was deleted was that I posted a comment that in my opinion the thread should have been deleted, and that it was not good for the group as a whole. In fairness to the MOD he also stated that I violated the Personal Attack Policy. This is what he said:
 
"_Reason:_* I guess you do not know how to use the PM feature as requested? Also, personal attacks are not permitted* "
 
Then he explained in another PM:
 
"_...you posting what you did on the thread was a blatant disregard of my request that any disagreements with my decision be sent via PM. On many other forums, criticizing the moderators in the open forum will get you banned."_
 
I then pointed out to this MOD that another member on another thread had openly criticized the MOD for not taking down the very same thread I had said should have been taken down. This MOD has done nothing to the other post.
 
I go back to the what you said, and while yes it doesn't really matter what we think, or how we interpret the policy, there has to be consistency to administering the policy.


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## ROOKIETURNER (Jul 31, 2010)

ed4copies said:


> This is precisely where you differ with the TOS and AUP.
> 
> The IAP does not say the thread should be deleted because it's TONE is perceived as less than ideal. The IAP relies on its members, mostly adults, to refine the thread. When it starts going south, most of us can SEE that. NOW, instead of pushing it farther south, step in to try to warn the group that they are "on the line".
> 
> ...


 
While you would think that is the case I have evidence of the contrary.

This is what I was told when a thread of mine had been deleted:

"I am sorry if you disagree with my reasons to delete it but my interests are to keep the peace here at IAP to the best of my ability."

No AUP or TOS policy had been violated. He just felt like "the horse had been beaten".

So which is it? Do they only delete when AUP or TOS is violated, or do they delete sometimes simply because it is not good for the group?


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## glycerine (Jul 31, 2010)

Do refs always make the same call in football games? How often do you see fans complaining about a "bad call"?
If you disagree with a moderator's decision, PM them and talk about it. The moderators have to use their own discretion in these circumstances, just as a ref or umpire does at a ball game. But going at it this way will get you banned, just like arguing with an umpire will get you thrown out of a baseball game. The good thing here is, we can be banned, but not FINED! If you REALLY have a problem with something a moderator did, then take it to the top, take it to Jeff.


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## Rob73 (Jul 31, 2010)

Who's crying now?


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## Grizz (Jul 31, 2010)

"I think the 'idea' of this thread is stupid."

Where's that statement fit?  :befuddled:


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## mbroberg (Jul 31, 2010)

ROOKIETURNER said:


> But I am just trying to understand everyones perspective so that maybe the Mods will understand what we expect from the rule.





ROOKIETURNER said:


> Here is how the membership stands on this policy as demonstrated by their continued use of this service..
> 
> From the Terms of Service:  (*Bold Italics added for emphasis*)
> 
> ...


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## GaryMGg (Jul 31, 2010)

soligen said:


> ... there are actually nice ways to tell someone they are doing something stupid - but it take great effort to accomplish this in the written word.
> ...Unless its an extremely important point, I try to avoid the dissertation by trying to avoid being critical - its just much easier.


 
My point was the old saw "don't say anything" is NOT always the best course of action.
I agree 100% it is difficult to express a contentious point. 
It is often, though not nearly impossible, to criticize or disagree with someone politely and amicably.
For example, see above :biggrin::wink:

Perhaps the Dave Ramsey method doesn't work for everyone, but I'd rather you just tell me, 
"Gary, that's stupid." than write a 500 word diatribe which boils down to "Gary, That's stupid."
But hey, that's just me.
:biggrin::biggrin:


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## ed4copies (Jul 31, 2010)

Remember Gary:  There is no "standard" for STUPID.

I should then post, "Gary I BELIEVE that's stupid".  To which you could, quite rightly, reply: "Well Ed, you are incorrect-IMO" and that, of course, would END it.



IF you believe that scenario, you have not spent five years on the IAP:bananen_smilies046:


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## Smitty37 (Jul 31, 2010)

*Disagree without being disagreeable*

Why should one ever be making personal comments about someone they don't even know???  Most of the folks I respond to on this forum I have never met in person and I don't know a thing about them except what they say here so what is there to attack.  Making a personal attack on someone just makes me appear to be a fool.

I sometimes have a problem because I say "you" when making a general comment in response to someone elses comment.  When I see it I fix it because it might tend to make a general statement seem like a personal attack.  I do need to acknowledge that most people do not take such things in the unintended way.

Generally speaking, if one does not like what another or others have written they have an easy solution....don't read it.

Comments regarding the value of a thread are never appropriate...if one doesn't like it....don't follow it.


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## bitshird (Jul 31, 2010)

I remember when you asked for opinions on a pen you would actually get some honest criticism, if it was under turned you were told, if the finish looked like it had been done with 60 grit sandpaper some one would tell you the Honest Truth, NOT SO any more, 99.99% of the time you see nice pen , good match up Blah Blah Blah, at one time these were valued opinions that's what made some of us work harder to become better pen turners. not the same old NPGJ routine we get today. That wasn't considered an attack, some weak kneed, Lilly liver, wussies probably cringed when their master piece was trashed, (given an honest evaluation)  but that's what kept me here. At one time one of the best guys on the forum Cav, even kept our use or misuse of the English language up to at least a 4th grade level. I miss those days. and sad but true keep in mind that one of the greatest pen turners to ever be on this site was banned. So ya might want to think twice before any one  (idea) (not any person) opens their yap at one of the Mods. I've seen some extremely nasty uncalled for PM's that have been sent to other people, that if I were them I would forward them to Jeff, Hostility doesn't have ANY business here on this site at all.


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## Smitty37 (Jul 31, 2010)

*Stupid*



ed4copies said:


> Remember Gary: There is no "standard" for STUPID.
> 
> I should then post, "Gary I BELIEVE that's stupid". To which you could, quite rightly, reply: "Well Ed, you are incorrect-IMO" and that, of course, would END it.
> 
> ...


 
Too many folks tend to take the remark "that's stupid" and convert it into "you're stupid".  Truth is smart people are not immune from doing stupid things but doing something stupid, or making a stupid mistake doesn't make a person stupid in a broad sense.


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## MesquiteMan (Jul 31, 2010)

Just for the record...since I am the only IAP moderator at this time, Rob is talking about me on this.  We have had numerous PMs back and forth and frankly, his posting of my PMs above is not appreciated and is a violation of the *Member Conduct* section of the Terms of Service.  I am not going to delete his posts, however, since I have nothing to hide and can take the criticism.


To address this specific claim:


> While you would think that is the case I have evidence of the contrary.
> 
> This is what I was told when a thread of mine had been deleted:
> 
> ...


What Rob is failing to tell you on this particular exchange a month or so ago is that a particular thread had already gotten to the point that the TOS or AUP had been obliterated and was deleted.  He did not like the fact that the thread was deleted so he went and basically started a  new thread with the exact same topic.  I deleted it before it too got out of hand.  Sure, that particular thread had not violated the TOS or AUP yet.  That is where my discretion and judgment has to come in.  Re-posting deleted topics right away on most of the other internet forums I frequent will actually get you banned but we prefer to not use the ban option here at IAP.

As for the other one...I have already explained my position to Rob via PM and will not continue to debate it here in the open forum. Rob's post was deleted due to a direct, personal attack on another member.  Just because I wrote my reason in a manner that does not fit his needs does not mean otherwise.

Most other internet forums that I frequent do not give reasons when a thread or post is deleted.  When I became a moderator here nearly 4 years, I asked Jeff to install a mod to the software that would allow a reason to be given and sent to the person when action is taken.  I felt that was a a good policy and would allow for better feelings between members and moderators.  I am not so sure about that now.  There is limited space to type out a detailed reason of why action is taken.  Sure, in the particular case that was quoted above, I did write something about him not using the PM function.  I also stated that personal attacks are not allowed.  Perhaps I should have written things in a different order.  Hindsight is always 20/20.  The bottom line is still that a personal attack was made and a post was deleted because of it.

Curtis Seebeck
IAP Moderator


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## ed4copies (Jul 31, 2010)

The best way to avoid falling into a canyon:

Don't walk on the edge!!!

When you post anything that MIGHT be a personal attack, RE-EVALUATE!!  If in doubt, DON'T!

Then we can let Curtis have a life--not spend his time "moderating" a group of ADULTS!!!!!!!


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## ed4copies (Jul 31, 2010)

BTW, Smitty----- I am gaining more and more respect for you!!  We disagree on marketing, but you are a "stand up" guy!!!


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## ROOKIETURNER (Jul 31, 2010)

Grizz said:


> "I think the 'idea' of this thread is stupid."
> 
> Where's that statement fit? :befuddled:


 

LOL, that was too funny.


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## maxwell_smart007 (Jul 31, 2010)

Curtis, in my opinion, has always been a fair and responsible moderator.  He moderates according to the TOS and AUP, and has always given solid reasons for any actions that he has taken.   

One thing that bothers me in this thread is the posting of PMs on the open forum.  PM stands for Private Message, and it should definitely be considered a private conversation.  I don't know of anyone that would permit their phone to be tapped - in the same way, I think that private messages should not be repeated.    

Regardless, debating the interpretation of a rule meant to prevent insulting or inflammatory attacks on others is rather childish - let's just try and act like adults, and avoid belittling others, ok?  

Andrew


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## Smitty37 (Jul 31, 2010)

*disagreement*



ed4copies said:


> BTW, Smitty----- I am gaining more and more respect for you!! We disagree on marketing, but you are a "stand up" guy!!!


 
I think, our disagreements are philosophical....I think we are both pragmatic enough to do what works for us regardless of what we call it.  You are actually marketing a different product in a different market place,  if I were there I might think the same way you do.


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## ThomJ (Jul 31, 2010)

Confuscious say "Dead Horse gets more tender the more you beat it"


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## ROOKIETURNER (Jul 31, 2010)

I don't think that I called for debate. I simply asked what other's thought of the policy, and what they felt it meant. I think that this has been an eye opening experience for me. I did not mean to start it to prove either myself right or wrong.

I wanted to see if maybe my perspective was skewed and maybe there are things that I had not thought of. I was also told by Curtis that I could start this thread. He even siad I could start one bitching openly about his desicions. I chose not to open bitch and wanted honest reponses. Posts were made and I felt the need to explain. I appologize if it violated the poilicy, it was only my intention to be as factual as possible. I did not want to inject slant into what was said.


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## bad (Jul 31, 2010)

GaryMGg said:


> What is "nice"? Here are a few thoughts on what's nice:
> At times, I listen to Dave Ramsey on the radio. People with financial problems call in and ask for advice based on actions they've taken.
> When they do something he believes is stupid, he tells them it's stupid.
> He's helping them. Saying nothing would not be "nice."
> ...



On one hand I understand your point of view. On the other hand this is a pen turning forum. Maybe I've missed a few posts in the past, but I don't think people are posting questions about how to deal with their alcholism, what religion they should practice or who to vote for. Ok, maybe there have been a few posts on the last one  My point is that this is a pen turning forum. It's one thing to talk about different methods of applying CA, but it's another to say that your way of applying CA is stupid. So back to my previous post, which I may not have expressed perfectly, "If you can't say something nice (or make that constructive) don't say anything at all."


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## GaryMGg (Jul 31, 2010)

Bruce,
My response was based on the fact I see the IAP forum as a whole including the 
Casual Conversation area wherein folks do ask for advice and opinions about things in their personal lives.
Sometimes, very important things.
In some respect, it's where we shine as a community because we can help one another deal 
with issues larger than pen-turning.

However, I agree with your post when it's confined to the areas dedicated to pen-turning. 
If someone wants to apply CA with their tongue, who am I to say anything?!? :clown:


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## Mark (Jul 31, 2010)

GaryMGg said:


> If someone wants to apply CA with their tongue, ......... :clown:


    :biggrin:   That's what I've been doing wrong... :biggrin:


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## MesquiteMan (Jul 31, 2010)

ROOKIETURNER said:


> I was also told by Curtis that I could start this thread. He even siad I could start one bitching openly about his desicions.



Just to be clear...however, you were not given consent to post our private message exchanges.


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## KDM (Jul 31, 2010)

I ignore local rules as the _ethic of reciprocity_ covers every rule ever written.


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## johnnycnc (Jul 31, 2010)

Rob,
I think it's good to get things in the open. With that being said, I personally do not get
into openly arguing. I have done it once or twice, and felt poorly afterwards.
It is simpler for me to either let it go, or take it to PM's.
This is a pretty clean board, and personal attacks really make for some heat and hard feelings since you can't really ever take words back.
People start choosing sides, and it just escalates. Where does it go, usually downhill.
So, I see the "no personal attacks" policy as a fair one in the interest of keeping a flow going. 
Now, I'll give you this; some of these discussions are highly entertaining to sit back and read but do we really want to go there? I don't.:biggrin:

It's hard to sit still and be quiet sometimes, for sure. So you sure have a dilemna there. I hope you find your best solution.


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## bitshird (Jul 31, 2010)

Lord we are gathered here today, the day of the great PITH off to lay this poor thread to rest, We beseech you in your infinite wisdom to forgive all the BS that has been strewn along the path of penturning, casting, and finishing. May you please see that this transgression is properly laid to rest and never more brought to light. 
Your humble servant Bitshird!!!!

 Can I get an Amen?????????


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## bad (Jul 31, 2010)

bitshird said:


> Lord we are gathered here top day, the day of the great PITH off to lay this poor thread to rest, We beseech you in your infinite wisdom to forgive all the BS that has been strewn along the path of penturning, casting, and finishing. May you please see that this transgression is properly laid to rest and never more brought to light.
> Your humble servant Bitshird!!!!
> 
> Can I get an Amen?????????



Amen!


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## bitshird (Jul 31, 2010)

bad said:


> Amen!




Now that's what I'm talkin about!!!!!


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## truckfixr (Jul 31, 2010)

Ramen!


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## ROOKIETURNER (Jul 31, 2010)

Thank you all for your input. I just guess I will live by the rule of nothing nice to say (personally), cuz if ya ask me what I think about your pen, I'm gonna tell ya what I think, say nothing at all. I vow not to criticize people, but ideas. I agree not to be a flamer...not that there is anything wrong with that. And I will refrain from posting anything from a PM.

Curtis, again I apologize for the oversight, it truly was not intentional to break the rules. I didn't sit here and say dang the rules I am going to post it. I truly meant no harm.

Thank you Johnny for your wisdom!

And Amen Bitshird!


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## GoodTurns (Jul 31, 2010)

bitshird said:


> Lord we are gathered here today, the day of the great PITH off to lay this poor thread to rest, We beseech you in your infinite wisdom to forgive all the BS that has been strewn along the path of penturning, casting, and finishing. May you please see that this transgression is properly laid to rest and never more brought to light.
> Your humble servant Bitshird!!!!
> 
> Can I get an Amen?????????



AMEN!


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## EBorraga (Jul 31, 2010)

AMEN MY BROTHER!!!! Now where's the wine


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## Mark (Jul 31, 2010)

I don't have any wine...:frown:

I just cracked open a Yuengling B&T. Does that count? :biggrin:


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## OKLAHOMAN (Jul 31, 2010)

You can say that again:biggrin::wink:!quote=ThomJ;1063631]Confuscious say "Dead Horse get more tender the more you beat it"[/quote]


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## RAdams (Jul 31, 2010)

Wine? What church do you go to? Can we talk about religion just for long enough to let me hear about this wine stuff??:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:



All jokes aside, I was gonna post a big long post to this thread, talkin about flames, and why a little heat is a good thing, but i think i will take the advice of my elders (No offense) and be quiet!


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## LandfillLumber (Jul 31, 2010)

Jump through the hoops as many things get deleted that in my opinion should not be.I have learned to keep quiet and jump through hoops,lol.I have seen down right prejudice against certain types of people that go without notice then i see petty stupid things erased.We must understand(me included) that it must be hard to run the site,and try to keep all happy.No perfect answer or we would have world peace.I just stay a contributing member and not worry about the politics(its life).My two cents not meant to insult anyone at all,Victor


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## MesquiteMan (Jul 31, 2010)

Victor, I would sure like to see examples of "down right prejudice against certain types of people".


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## capcrnch (Jul 31, 2010)

Mark said:


> I don't have any wine...:frown:
> 
> I just cracked open a Yuengling B&T. Does that count? :biggrin:



You east coasters that brag about drinking your Yuengling make me sick. You've got some serious nerve.

What about those of us that can't get Yueng's? Like the poor people of Michigan.
Damn you.

Now if you'll excuse me, i'm going back to my Bell's Oberon.


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## bitshird (Jul 31, 2010)

ROOKIETURNER said:


> ), cuz if ya ask me what I think about your pen, I'm gonna tell ya what I think,
> 
> 
> And Amen Bitshird!


When I post a picture of a pen I made, I would much rather have honest evaluations, not this  Nice pen Good Job crap, if some one sees something I don't then I'd like to know about it, if the Colors don't work with a casting I've done I'd like to know honest opinions about that too. Comments about my photography skills, SAVE your breath I know it sucks.



Mark said:


> I don't have any wine...:frown:
> 
> I just cracked open a Yuengling B&T. Does that count? :biggrin:



That'll do just take two sips and drop a quarter in the urinal!!



EBorraga said:


> AMEN MY BROTHER!!!! Now where's the wine



Sorry I just polished off the last of the Dago Red in a glass of 7Up  I hope that wasn't seen as a slur or any thing perhaps I should have said Chianti.


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## wolftat (Jul 31, 2010)

GaryMGg said:


> Honey, do these jeans make my butt look big?


 Gary, take my advice on this one, the proper answer to that question should never be, " I don't think the jeans make your butt look big, it does that all by itself.". She is now my ex-wife.:biggrin:


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## Dalecamino (Jul 31, 2010)

wolftat said:


> Gary, take my advice on this one, the proper answer to that question should never be, " I don't think the jeans make your butt look big, it does that all by itself.". She is now my ex-wife.:biggrin:


:bulgy-eyes:


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## OKLAHOMAN (Jul 31, 2010)

Ken only a "Wop" can use the term "Dago" and try as I might with your last name seems I can't even get you honerary membership



Sorry I just polished off the last of the Dago Red in a glass of 7Up I hope that wasn't seen as a slur or any thing perhaps I should have said Chianti.[/quote]


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## LandfillLumber (Jul 31, 2010)

Hey I'm not trying to start things but if you like look up some old ear plug posts,and another that I can't remember what the post was about as I think it was one that went off on to something else.I think an old tattoo post was another i remember people saying things about this type of person that should have been deleted.Like I said not trying to start things just saying its the way it is unless your a mod.Victor




MesquiteMan said:


> Victor, I would sure like to see examples of "down right prejudice against certain types of people".


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## IPD_Mrs (Jul 31, 2010)

One would think that it would be pretty simple with regard to an IAP event.  

If you don't have time, interest or the intestinal fortitude to participate then don't bother with the thread.  Why in the world would you let anything like that get to you?  My kids will jabber on and on, then suddenly stop and ask me what I thought or if I was listening.  My standard response is, God gave me two ears, and in and an out.  He just forgot to label them.  So using this application, it is not the posts that get to you, you let you get to you.

Now I am gonna go unload a big pile of wood I just picked up from JohnnyCNC and start sorting it.


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## Dalecamino (Jul 31, 2010)

MLKWoodWorking said:


> One would think that it would be pretty simple with regard to an IAP event.
> 
> If you don't have time, interest or the intestinal fortitude to participate then don't bother with the thread. Why in the world would you let anything like that get to you? My kids will jabber on and on, then suddenly stop and ask me what I thought or if I was listening. My standard response is, God gave me two ears, and in and an out. He just forgot to label them. So using this application, it is not the posts that get to you, you let you get to you.
> 
> Now I am gonna go unload a big pile of wood I just picked up from JohnnyCNC and start sorting it.


 SO,YOU are the one who got that wood!!! :beat-up::biggrin:


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## IPD_Mrs (Jul 31, 2010)

dalecamino said:


> SO,YOU are the one who got that wood!!! :beat-up::biggrin:


 

Well Chuck, you noticed!  You do know where the shop is, once I have cut some of this up there may be two or three blanks left out of it!


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## MesquiteMan (Jul 31, 2010)

LandfillLumber said:


> Like I said not trying to start things just saying its the way it is unless your a mod.Victor



Still not clear on what you are saying, Victor.  I AM a moderator and the only one currently.  Are you saying that members are prejudiced towards other member or that I am prejudiced against other members in my capacity as moderator?  Remember, I am the only moderator so when you say mods generically, you are talking about me.  I am not trying to start anything either but if you feel that I am biased, then I want to know.  You can PM me if you prefer.


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## r-ice (Aug 1, 2010)

creative criticism? I mean if i made a crap pen, i'd want someone to tell me instead of wearing the emperors new clothes.



Lenny said:


> Why do you want to criticize anyone?
> 
> Go turn a pen!


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## Gin N' Tonic (Aug 1, 2010)

Wow!

The arrogance and ignorance displayed in this thread is astounding.

I have a bottle or two of Plymouth Gin stashed away for the "dark times". Guess it's time to break it out.


Folks, It's a pen forum. It seems that some have forgotten this.


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## ROOKIETURNER (Aug 3, 2010)

Gin N' Tonic said:


> Wow!
> 
> The arrogance and ignorance displayed in this thread is astounding.
> 
> ...


 

Then why post anything? If the arrogance and ignorance is so rampant, why stir the pot? Seems to me that you are displaying poor judgment by instigating with your post.
 
"Drink up Johnny, it's good for you!" (Not referring to you JohnnyCNC, it is a line from a really good movie with a twist. Should be "Smoke up Johnny, it's good for you!" but that didn't seem appropriate.)


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## Phunky_2003 (Aug 3, 2010)

Geeeeeeeeeeeeeeze


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## RogerGarrett (Aug 3, 2010)

Just thought I should remove it.

R


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## DCBluesman (Aug 3, 2010)

One who is injured ought not to return the injury, for on no account can it be right to do an injustice; and it is not right to return an injury, or to do evil to any man, however much we have suffered from him. 
*Socrates*


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## glycerine (Aug 3, 2010)

RogerGarrett said:


> Just when you thought it was all over..........!
> 
> You be the judge (the following story is paraphrased):
> ...


 
Have you seen how MANY threads and posts there are on this forum?  Have you seen how FEW moderators we have?


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## IPD_Mrs (Aug 3, 2010)

I really do not understand expending this much energy over naught.

Talk about making mountains out of molehills.

If you don't like a post or feel that something isn't quite right, notify Curtis or Jeff if need be.  This insistent stirring of the pot is unreal.  Makes me wonder what has transpired over the year I have been away.


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## ed4copies (Aug 3, 2010)

glycerine said:


> Have you seen how MANY threads and posts there are on this forum?  Have you seen how FEW moderators we have?


 
Do you understand WHY that is the case, after a few threads like this???

Whether we agree with every move Curtis makes or not, he has been a "steady hand" for several years.  Many came before him and passed into the darkness---let's agree to disagree but accept the FACT that Curtis enforces the TOS and AUP the best he can.  And, yes there is ALWAYS going to be SOME judgment, which is, YES--SUBJECTIVE!!!

So, live with it.  It's Curtis' JOB, here!!!


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## RogerGarrett (Aug 3, 2010)

glycerine said:


> Have you seen how MANY threads and posts there are on this forum?  Have you seen how FEW moderators we have?



Yup.


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## MesquiteMan (Aug 3, 2010)

Roger, do you think that I work full time for IAP?  I am a volunteer who has a real job owning and running 3 different business to feed my family.  Here is a time line of what transpired on the thread that you have such a heartburn over...

7/28 6:41 am  Roger posts first reply to original poster--nothing negative
7/28 4:37 pm  Original poster replies to Roger with a less than nice comment
7/28 4:54 pm Roger replies to original poster--nothing negative
7/28 4:57 pm Roger posts additional comment to original poster
7/28 4:59 pm Roger posts additional comment to original poster
7/28 5:11 pm Original poster replies to Roger with a less than civil post
7/28 11:54 pm  Additional post was made from a different poster
7/29  11:15 am  Thread deleted by myself.

Just to let you in on something...I worked all day out in the field  on the 28th.  I got home about 5:30 and took a look at IAP and the numerous reported posts message I received on this one.  At 6:15 pm my mother called and and said something was really wrong with my dad and that I needed to come over right away.  I literally dropped my mouse and ran out the door for the 1 mile drive to their house.  I drove with my emergency hazzards and went WAY over the speed limit.  I got to their home and my father had just had a grand mal seizure and was unresponsive.  He was really hot and I knew he needed to go to the hospital right away.  I called 911 and requested an ambulance since I did not think it was safe to take him in my vehicle.  I stayed there until the ambulance came and then followed it to the ER.  I stayed at the ER until he was admitted to ICU at around 2 am with severe pneumonia and real high fever.  The next morning, I woke up late and did not even open IAP again until around 11:00 am and at that time, took care of the thread.  So excuse me for not taking care of it sooner to meet your time frame.

As for the second thread started...the original poster posted his thread and part of his message was a copy and paste of the no polluting rule.  This is not necessary so I deleted that portion of this original message.  After he posted his message, there were 2 follow ups regarding the posting of the rule.  Those were deleted since they no longer made sense with the original post edited.  I then posted my message to remind folks that it was the classified and that polluting was not permitted.

Still not sure how you came up with me playing favorites to the original poster.


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## glycerine (Aug 3, 2010)

RogerGarrett said:


> Yup.



Then stop acting like the moderator's job is a piece of cake.  It takes alot of work and time to moderate a forum such as this.  You should show appreciation instead of complaining.  Poor Curtis will never be able to please EVERYONE, that's just the way it is...


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## glycerine (Aug 3, 2010)

Very sorry to hear this Curtis.



MesquiteMan said:


> Just to let you in on something...I worked all day out in the field  on the 28th.  I got home about 5:30 and took a look at IAP and the numerous reported posts message I received on this one.  At 6:15 pm my mother called and and said something was really wrong with my dad and that I needed to come over right away.  I literally dropped my mouse and ran out the door for the 1 mile drive to their house.  I drove with my emergency hazzards and went WAY over the speed limit.  I got to their home and my father had just had a grand mal seizure and was unresponsive.  He was really hot and I knew he needed to go to the hospital right away.  I called 911 and requested an ambulance since I did not think it was safe to take him in my vehicle.  I stayed there until the ambulance came and then followed it to the ER.  I stayed at the ER until he was admitted to ICU at around 2 am with severe pneumonia and real high fever.  The next morning, I woke up late and did not even open IAP again until around 11:00 am and at that time, took care of the thread.  So excuse me for not taking care of it sooner to meet your time frame.
> 
> As for the second thread started...the original poster posted his thread and part of his message was a copy and paste of the no polluting rule.  This is not necessary so I deleted that portion of this original message.  After he posted his message, there were 2 follow ups regarding the posting of the rule.  Those were deleted since they no longer made sense with the original post edited.  I then posted my message to remind folks that it was the classified and that polluting was not permitted.
> 
> Still not sure how you came up with me playing favorites to the original poster.


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## Gin N' Tonic (Aug 3, 2010)

ROOKIETURNER said:


> Then why post anything? If the arrogance and ignorance is so rampant, why stir the pot? Seems to me that you are displaying poor judgment by instigating with your post.
> 
> "Drink up Johnny, it's good for you!" (Not referring to you JohnnyCNC, it is a line from a really good movie with a twist. Should be "Smoke up Johnny, it's good for you!" but that didn't seem appropriate.)



It seems that when you post an opinion all is well but let someone post a differing opinion then it's stirring the pot and poor judgment.


I rest my case.

Have a nice day.


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## mbroberg (Aug 3, 2010)

Curtis,

It's a shame that you feel the need to have to explain the details of your personal life to people who apparently don't have one, other than to whine and complain about petty little things they don't like.  You do a fantastic job and I thank you for doing it so well.


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## OLDMAN5050 (Aug 4, 2010)

personaly I think this thread  is out of hand, if one don't want to use this forum to learn and advance his skills at PEN TURNING (not debating) and to share ideas about our craft I think he should not log on here any more. some good people are being ran away from this forum because of this kind of stuff, come on let us act like the adults we are......... PLEASE


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## desertrat (Aug 4, 2010)

Enough is enough! Is it not about time to let everyone get back to turning and less carping. Curtis has done the whole lot of us a great service. Curtis "THANK YOU"

desertrat


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## KDM (Aug 4, 2010)

Gin N' Tonic said:


> Folks, It's a pen forum. It seems that some have forgotten this.



It's a casual converastion, coincidentally hosted on a pen forum. I think we need a thread for gripes, moans, pissing people off and generally getting on each others' nerves.

I guess it would be terribly quiet at first, then some poor innocent would say something, hell would break loose, with folk telling others what they thought of people (wow, 3 different names for community members!) and then it would all go quiet again.

I vote for an X rated thred where we can let loose.

Actually, I take that back. For heaven's sake. It's a pen forum. *My first few pens were crap and the only reason I kept making them was that you people told me they were great.*

Trouble with that is NOW, I'm not sure whether my pens are any good or not!!!


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## JeremyJ (Aug 4, 2010)

I have said it before its always one kid that starts throwing sand to get everyone kicked out of the sandbox.  I don't think anyone should take the negative comments to heart because its usually coming from someone that has no room to talk. It's a pen forum to learn from and show off your work not cut people down.


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## Daniel (Aug 4, 2010)

I actually liked the idea of discussing this issue so that others can get more of an idea of what is expected in the TOS. And yes I do think it makes a difference. this group is not and never has been a monarchy. Jeff is a benevolent dictator. But seldom reins down that power. I also believe that Curtis is very open to understanding what is and is not acceptable by the group as a whole. 
I have seen a trend toward the antagonistic behavior that is so common on nearly every other forum I have ever visited. For the most part this group has managed int eh past to avoid that sort of culture simply by upholding a standard of behavior that seems to weed out the unsavory. I have more than once seen the less than desirable vendor ran out of town. Scams, antagonists, bogus leads and less than satisfactory parts accessories, tools and the like do not tend to survive long around here without being uncovered. I think that by sheer volume of traffic it is become diluted to some extent. I know at one time if there was a member that always tended to stir up trouble. others simply stopped reading their comments. Not much entertainment in arguing with yourself. In this way the group really did moderate itself often.


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## Rifleman1776 (Aug 5, 2010)

Read my signature. Stick around here long enough and you will understand why I use that quote.


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