# How dry is dry??



## ed4copies (Sep 7, 2010)

I'm pretty philosophical about pens cracking and other disasters after they are made.  But the recent Corrugata Burl that came out so well has gotten me to reevaluate my turning practices.

I rarely have difficulty with pens, unless I rush to finish them.  This one, we wanted pictures so I broke a few "cardinal rules" and I have paid for that with the CA finish separating from the wood.

It MAY be separating because the wood was not dry enough???  So, how dry do you "wood guys" consider dry enough??

You may make more than one choice AND you can comment on "baking" as well as dryness, if you like.


----------



## DCBluesman (Sep 7, 2010)

Rather than moisture content, I prefer to think about whether or not the wood is stable in my environment.  Snakewood and ebony, for example, must sit in my shop for 6 months or more even if I bought them "ready for turning" dry. 

Between 40 and 45% of Western Australia (home of the rib-fruit mallee) is semi-arid or desert.  I suspect your pen may not have dried out, but may have actually sucked up some moisture from the lake effect moisture in the Racine area. For that reason, all of my Aussie woods get the same treatment as snakewood and ebony.


----------



## ed4copies (Sep 7, 2010)

:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:They couldn't have absorbed Lake Michigan moisture, they don't smell like sh.......... "floaters"!!


----------



## witz1976 (Sep 7, 2010)

ed4copies said:


> :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:They couldn't have absorbed Lake Michigan moisture, they don't smell like sh.......... "floaters"!!




LMFAO :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:  Now that is funny!  

I tend to do the same as Lou, I let them sit in the shop for a few months.  I don't own a moisture meter so I go by how it sounds.  Nice sharp "crack" and I know it is 20% moisture or less.  (I burn firewood... tricks of the trade:biggrin


----------



## ericw95 (Sep 7, 2010)

What is a moisture meter?  Actually I know but I don't own one.  I "assume" that if I buy ready to turn that it is but blanks often sit for awhile before turning.


----------



## ed4copies (Sep 7, 2010)

More things we are learning:

You want nice burls???  So does everyone else!!!!

So, you buy them when you SEE them---and we buy by the pound in some cases, so we pay for water..  BUT, we want nice burls---

Exotics also has a limited amount of storage space, so we would prefer to be selling burls as we get them and get them cut into pen blanks.  Now, pen blanks will dry faster than whole burls, so we COULD hold onto them until they dry.  But, the longer they sit on the shelf, the more expensive it gets.

So, the choice boils down to:
GREAT burls. reasonable prices, you will have to dry them some,
OR Great burls, nice and dry--expensive
OR Mediocre burls that are left over after others buy the good ones--reasonable price-turn them right away.

We are trying to decide between the top two---ANYONE can have mediocre---not our style!!!

Discussion welcome!!


----------



## ericw95 (Sep 7, 2010)

I'd be in the great burls that need to dry camp.


----------



## wolftat (Sep 7, 2010)

Ed, I put a piece of Olivewood burl in the microwave, hit it for 20 seconds and walked out of the shop, when I came back in a few minutes later, I shut down the microwave, put out the fire, and choked on the smoke for a few minutes. I had accidently set the microwave for 20 minutes (**it happens). The wood was very dried (some may even call it charred) and promptly went into a bucket of water. This method appears to be the proper way to test dryness, if it lights on fire, it is dry enough.


----------



## ed4copies (Sep 7, 2010)

Neil,

If you microwave for 20 seconds, there is no NEED to walk away!!!!

But I got your point!!!

I did a large order for a wedding years ago--all Aussie woods.  Baked them at 150 for 20 minutes (OVEN--not microwave~~~~), then the next day, another 20 minutes, did it three times.  Let sit for three days, drilled, turned etc--had the pens (comfort style--not a lot of "meat") for two months before the wedding--they looked GREAT.  

I think I will try this again.


----------



## wolftat (Sep 7, 2010)

Had to walk away or I would have wet myself. Somethings are a must at a given time.


----------



## ed4copies (Sep 7, 2010)

NEVER DRINK before you DRY!!!


----------



## wolftat (Sep 7, 2010)

I figured I should be as dry as the wood.


----------



## witz1976 (Sep 7, 2010)

...and this is why I don't drink when I am playing with wood.  

And Ed I am all for buying very nice burls at a less expensive price if I need to dry them, fine by me!


----------



## ed4copies (Sep 7, 2010)

Then jump on those Corrugata!!

I just took a few for me for home--I HAVE to try again.

That pen was an easy $200, probably more.  By the time I get one I can sell, I will have EARNED my money!!


----------



## witz1976 (Sep 7, 2010)

LOL I would Ed, but Unemployment is not that friendly.  I got a few orders in the works so hopefully if they jump, so will I.


----------



## bitshird (Sep 7, 2010)

I don't own a moisture meter, but I tend to let a lot of wood set around in my shop, Not for any reasonable reason, I just buy a lot more wood than I need. But I'm afraid if I were to get something that looked as good as that corrugata pen did, I'd have to turn it NOW or even better yesterday,  the bottom line is I would like to have superior burls and we also live in an area of high humidity, kind of in between two of the largest rivers in America, so I guess it's a good thing to let it adapt to the climate, I sure as He## wish I could.


----------



## Smitty37 (Sep 7, 2010)

*Sit and wait*

Most of what I buy is dry when I get it but it still tends to sit around for 6 months to a year or more before I use it.

That being said, I don't have the foggiest notion of how dry wood should be before being used...I just know that the "kiln dryed" lumber I buy at lumber yards is too wet (I sometimes get juice splashed in my eye when I try to drive a nail).  I believe their idea of kiln dryed is to use a large bow and shoot the wood like an arrow between two guys holding blow torches.

All of which says I trust no-one with respect to wood being "dry enough"


----------



## 1080Wayne (Sep 8, 2010)

Just a couple of things you may wish to consider :

To expand a bit on Lou`s comments , the equilibrium moisture content at the recipients location is more important than that at the turners location . If I send a pen to Racine , I know I can use wood at 15% in Nov and you won`t see the crack until May or June when it hits 12% . If you send one to me , it had better be close to 6% at any time of the year . To quote USDA`s Wood Handbook `Wood should be installed at moisture c
ontent levels as close as possible to the average moisture content it will experience in service . ...The in-service moisture content of interior wood depends primarily on indoor relative humidity , which in turn is a complex function of moisture sources , ventilation rate , air conditioning , and outdoor humidity conditions .`

You may also want to reflect on the fact that blanks cut from some green burls may not stay in a nice rectangular condition as they dry . The odd person on this forum seems to feel that it is necessary to have a perfectlly square blank so they can drill a mathematically centered hole in it before it can be turned approximately round . That could limit the potntial size of the market , and overload your limited storage space . Fortunately , I would be able to help with the storage problem , at no cost to you , and I might even be able to help you with the shipping cost .


----------



## rjwolfe3 (Sep 8, 2010)

I use a moisture meter for mine. I tend to get my wood to between 6-8%. Most store bought blanks I use right away if I custom order them.


----------



## robutacion (Sep 8, 2010)

Hi Ed,

Where do I start...???:wink:

Well, I can assist you in relation to some of the Aussie woods, particularly the 44 LOCAL (SA) wood species I have processed at the moment into all sorts of blanks sizes and shapes and in this case, size does matter...!
Cutting most of these trees myself, I spend a considerable amount of time, trying no ways to improve the speed, quality and yield of these timbers and I can tell you, it is a battle...!:beat-up:

There is no such thing as a single rule to wood drying process or methods, indeed there more factors to consider them most people would imagine, and I can go though them if you wish (will be Christmas, before I'm done tough, sort of speak...!) but, I can resume/simplify your question with a few "golden rules" which do directly affect the wood dryness.

I will try to refer as much as possible to pen blanks, as these offer the best conditions (size) to achieve a dry stage in a shorter possible period of time (size matters, thing...!)

*- Most Kiln dry structured places, consider the "boards" dry or "cooked" as some call it, when the moisture content gauges reaches 12%.  The boards are the preferred wood cut to allow the best drying results, speed and cell stabilization.

*- Some more sophisticated dry kilns do a immersion bath to the wood (boards) before they are moved to the kiln dry racks.  This chemical treatment is rarely mentioned as some of the bath ingredients are toxic, and no I'm not talking about the green(ish) termite and and other rodents treatment that we find in posts and other external structures.  This particular bath, stops wood from being affect with mould, and other fungi but it particularly replace the water as soon as the wood reaches about 55 to 60 degrees, while in the kiln.  These woods come out with much better quality, stability and equilibrium, therefore reaching a high price, this mean that only some of the commercially valuable woods get this treatment.

*- Air drying wood, is never as quick and effective as the previous options.  There tough a few interesting points that one should be aware of, such as, was the wood in boards, stacked, spaced in an open environment (to the elements/weather) or the boards were stacked and spaced stored under cover...???.  Interestingly wood outside will dry quicker even if it gets wet from rain but will deteriorate and produce less clean wood (yield) at the processing stage, while the wood kept under cover have a better yield but will take in average 6 extra months to reach the same dry status...!
A piece from the outside racks of dry but wet (rain) wood will evaporate that excess moisture from the rain in a couple of days, depending of the environmental temperatures that wood will be exposed to.  This wood will crack a lot less than the other wood dried under cover, if exposed to rain or any source of extreme moisture.

Sorry, I have to put the brakes right here as I'm getting on the Christmas time mood...!:frown:  

OK, most soft woods are quite safe to work with moisture content readings between 6 and 12%.  Some dense but non-oily woods can be quite safe to work up to 18%, then we have the dense and oily woods, these will hardly reach anything under 10-12% regardless how dry, unless the natural oils have been sucked out though chemical treatment.  Timbers suck as Olive wood, are perfectly workable up to 20% MC BUT, it all depend of you you handle it with all the pen making processes, there is, heat at those MC% levels will split/kill it.  Blank drilling has to be done without allowing the bit and wood to get hot, and the finish is normally the second killer, particularly any sort of friction finish, that will guarantee a few air line cracks that can develop as you finish it or days later (1 week the most). Heat from the CA can spoil the blank also, I always recommend when working with olive wood and with a few other well known oily woods, if Ca is to be used, use thin CA and make sure the blank/barrel is cold again before applying the next coat.  The thicker the CA the more heat will produce so, it will less risky to use the thin one.

Your problem with your CA finish separating from the wood on that pen you mention, was not due to water (extra moisture) in the blank.  I do samples of my woods nearly everyday and most of them where done within 6 hours of the tree being cut, you could get any greener than that, unless the tree was dead, which isn't the case in most times.  Between rounding a pen blank sample, use the sanding sealer and the first coat of Floorseal varnish, immediately after turning, with a second coat within a couple of days or give the CA finish directly into the green/wet turned sample, has never resulted in that sort of separation in may case.  Green samples are harder to finish, regardless of what you use and the most common reaction afterwards is the shrinking and moving of the blank.

I just had a good example of this on the Almond burl blanks that I cut recently.  I had posted a pic of one blank that was cut from the burl that day and the wood was cut from the tree a week before so there is no doubt there is/was really green.  I tried to capture the natural and unique colours of these burled wood blanks before they would dramatically change to something else totally different if the burls were left untouched until dry.  As I explained them, I used CA to achieve the best gloss/chine I could, for the pic that evening and before the wood would start drying/changing.

The finish was gloss and even all around on the pic (2/9/10), I have been keeping this blank in the computer room with me so that I could check it regularly and within 48 hours, the shrinking was starting to be noticeable, I'm going to take a pic of it in a minute, so that you and other members can see what the blank is doing but, that CA finish is as hard and stuck to the wood as if the wood was bone dry...!

I find much more sensible and economical for everyone, to get/buy the wood/blanks they want, as per the current wood condition the supplier is offering (as it become available).  The risk is mutual, if the wood don't sell because is not ready to work with, and the supplier has to acquire drying kilns and/or nurse these woods/blanks until they are totally dry, many blanks will not make it and that is a fact regardless, then the blanks have the be sold at a premium price to cover the costs of the wood that didn't make it and interest of the money invested all that time waiting...! 
In another words, green, semi-green wood/blanks are always cheaper that the very dry stuff, 30% to 50% less in most cases (most valued woods)...! 

Moisture content gauges are a very handy and quite inexpensive tool to buy, mine cost me $50 landed in my place, they sell on eBay for about $30 bucks or so, I have this one 
These MC gauges read up to 40%, interestingly this is enough as a totally green and wet log reads between 37% and 40% so for the MC% readings on the world of woods, 40% is very green, 20% is half way there an 10% is the green light is most cases as explained previously.

Controlling MC% buy weight is also commonly used, you simply use digital   scales (kitchen type will do), date it and record its weight, put it a side for a while  (couple of weeks) and repeat the process, again record the weight and date it, when the blank stops loosing weight, its means it reached the balance within its environment and that means that the blanks is pretty much ready to turn...!:biggrin: 

Attached is the pics of the Almond blank freshly finished and today.  Is going to get a lot worse...! hope not totally wasted, will see...!

I wish that would be a simple answer to you question, there is the same question we all battle with...!:biggrin:

Cheers
George


----------



## ed4copies (Sep 8, 2010)

Thank you George!!

I appreciate the information--anything I can learn will help me and many other turners!!  (I talk a lot---but you might have guessed that!!)


----------



## robutacion (Sep 8, 2010)

ed4copies said:


> Thank you George!!
> 
> I appreciate the information--anything I can learn will help me and many other turners!!  (I talk a lot---but you might have guessed that!!)



No problem...!:wink:

Did you mean _"(I talk a lot---but you might have guessed that!!)"_ or you wanted to say (you talk a lot---but we all know that...!):biggrin::wink:

Oh, by-the-way, if you are cutting green wood or burls into pen blanks, try to make some of those "drying towers" as I call them, if you don't have plastic packing strap, use wire the keep those bundles tight.

These drying towers are very easy to handle when done, and you can then leave them upright or lay them flat on the floor.  Just one more thing, date the bundle when you put them together, that will help you immensely later on...!:biggrin: 

Cheers
George


----------



## Greg O'Sherwood (Sep 8, 2010)

Ed,
if I may - in an early post in this thread, you mentioned that you don't sell the mediocre burls as pen blanks. What do you do with them? The reason I'm asking is that I am always on the look out for burl and figured bowl and hollow form blanks. If you decide a burl isn't good for pen blanks, perhaps you could have a special page for those on your site. 
Pens require high density figure, but bowls and HF's- having a larger surface area- can get away with character areas instead of total figure.
I'd be a buyer and they don't need to be really large. 4x4x? are decent HF sizes. Shipping costs would be a concern, but flat rate boxes work well for that. 
Again, this only makes sense from the seller side if he already has the wood and it'll go to waste otherwise. Not too many businesses these days can ignore any addition to their bottom line.

Just an idea.

.


----------



## ed4copies (Sep 8, 2010)

Hey Greg,

SO FAR, we have been able to rely on our sources to choose burls, knowing what we plan to do.  SO FAR, it has worked out well.

We shall see how long this lasts--I appreciate your suggestion and hope I never need to use it!!:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:


----------



## louisbry (Sep 8, 2010)

Ed, I don't understand the CA separating.  I often cut green logs for bowls, etc. and if the wood looks promising for pens I will cut a pen blank.   I will immediately turn  the blank round and finish it with CA.   Most of the time the green rounded blank will warp considerably after several days but the finish is never affected.  If I like what I see I will cut more blanks and let them air dry until moisture content is less than 8 percent.


----------



## ed4copies (Sep 8, 2010)

Maybe my "deduction" that the blank is not dry is "all wet"!!

I'm open to other theories on the CA separating???  Dawn keeps reminding me that there is no separation on the cap section, just the pen body.  They were both done at the same time, using the same process.


----------



## DCBluesman (Sep 8, 2010)

Last theory, I promise.

YOU'RE A PLASTICS GUY!


----------



## ed4copies (Sep 8, 2010)

DCBluesman said:


> Last theory, I promise.
> 
> YOU'RE A PLASTICS GUY!





AMEN!!​


----------



## penhead (Sep 8, 2010)

I don't turn many pens lately...still turning a little, just not many pens...
and I tell ya, when I started turning about 8-years ago, I did I'net research, reading everything I could find...also many books...trying to find a better solution to the drying of wood, MC, etc....and now, with one question there is so much valuable information provided here in this thread.

Way to go IAP..!!!

Would it be possible, or even feasible, to consolidate the important info from each of these posts and provide it to the IAP library..??...Just a thought.. 8>)


----------



## ed4copies (Sep 8, 2010)

Hey John,

Rumor has it there is an opening as Library Manager, which, if you had that job, would allow you to consolidate and catalog and keep!!!!!

Send Jeff your resume, in triplicate, with cookies on the side, and you MAY get the job!!  Pay's great!!!


----------



## penhead (Sep 8, 2010)

Not sure what i would do with all the pay that comes with that job...
that's not the real problem though, I need a few more hours in the day the way it is ;(

Maybe as an assistant to whomever grabs the job 




ed4copies said:


> Hey John,
> 
> Rumor has it there is an opening as Library Manager, which, if you had that job, would allow you to consolidate and catalog and keep!!!!!
> 
> Send Jeff your resume, in triplicate, with cookies on the side, and you MAY get the job!!  Pay's great!!!


----------



## Lenny (Sep 8, 2010)

ed4copies said:


> GREAT burls. reasonable prices, you will have to dry them some,


 
Probably the way to go, HOWEVER, I would worry for YOU, knowing full well there will be customers out there that will NOT wait till they have properly dried and then will come back to you complaining when things go bad.:frown:


----------



## robutacion (Sep 9, 2010)

ed4copies said:


> Maybe my "deduction" that the blank is not dry is "all wet"!!
> 
> I'm open to other theories on the CA separating???  Dawn keeps reminding me that there is no separation on the cap section, just the pen body.  They were both done at the same time, using the same process.



Ed,

I keep wondering of the reason for CA separation from the wood on your pen but, you mentioning that the top barrel is fine and the bottom one is not, makes me wonder of the possibility that you touched something when handling that half or, for some reason that half blank was expose to something, it could be an over spray of something, something that the half blank soaked or even something that you contaminated that barrel before you initiated the CA process.  

One of the easiest things to do is, being interrupted for a few minutes, doing something that will leave some oily or other residue in you fingers (hand), comeback to the lathe without washing you hands and rub the fingers on the barrel surface to feel how it feels.  Any oily product will contaminate the bare wood and the CA would not be able to stick to the wood.

Another one is using a soft cloth or paper towel, to clean the bare raw wood to remove any dust or other before applying the CA, again that cloth or paper towel could have been contaminated with something and simply transfer the contamination into the unprotected wood.

That particular stage/moment  where the wood has just been prepared for the CA, at that point the wood surface is very volatile/vulnerable to any surface contamination, and just given it at least one coat of CA if one can't finish and have to return to it later...!

If you know that was no contamination just before the CA was applied, that half blank has had to been in contact with something that has soaked through the timber at some stage.  I don't thing that any extra moisture in the wood is the cause of the problem, in fact the tests that I done with green/wet wood and the CA finish shows that, any extra moisture on the wood surface is half removed from the heat generated from sending, the other half is concentrated near the tube (reason why some tubes come apart, as the moisture dissolves/weakens some glues), making the wood surface at that moment quite dry, allowing the first coat of CA to stick, and if that first coat sticks, the CA will hold regardless of how many coats you give it.

With the excess moisture being at the furthers point from the wood surface (tube), the heat generated from the CA applications takes care of a considerable percentage of that excess moisture, what is left behind is indeed a small percentage of moisture that, if the tube glue and the wood holds (not shrinking or cracking) will dissipate without causing any further damage.

Any water present in the small amount of wood left when the barrel is turned, is relative, tool, sanding and finish friction that care of it, the problem with turning pens with green(ish)/wet wood is that, most timbers will shrink, twist and stress while drying.  Even if both glues, tube and CA did hold, the blank will look like an bad shrivelled up 100 years old human skin, not mentioning other possibilities...!:wink: 

There are exceptions to the rule, particularly with very dense woods, some can be successfully finished with MC content of 25% and over...!

PS: Sorry, I nearly forgot, one of the best "preventive" steps one can do to eliminate the possibility of your blank/barrel(s) have been contaminate, just before you apply the CA finish or other, wipe it thoroughly with acetone and let it dry.  Paper towels are better for this step as cloths tend to leave fine little fibres in the wood surface.  One other product that I found very good to wipe the CA finish "ready" barrel(s) surfaces is the CA accelerator, it works really well (no, this idea isn't mine...!).

Cheers
George


----------

