# Ebay sellers



## babyblues (Apr 22, 2008)

Am I the only one who gets disgusted at the prices people charge for their pens on Ebay?  A turquise tru-stone baron fountain pen for $30?!?!  Come on now.  That pen is worth at least $100, probably more.  I mean, most of us aren't in it for the money, but we want our work to be appreciated.  If the craftsman doesn't want to make a profit, they can give the money to the IAP.    Or they can give it to me so I can buy a Oneway Talon chuck.  [8D]  When they sell their pens for so little, not only do they undercut those who do this as more than a hobby, it also does nothing to develop an appreciation for our work.  It just makes me disappointed I guess.


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## Ligget (Apr 22, 2008)

Each penmaker knows the value of their own work!


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## babyblues (Apr 22, 2008)

> _Originally posted by ligget_
> 
> Each penmaker knows the value of their own work!


I like it.


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## Tom McMillan (Apr 22, 2008)

I don't sell pens on EBAY, although I've tried, and I don't think it's the place to sell pens for what they're really worth.

With that said, I've sold miniatures there for over 3 years now.  I think there has to be some understanding that EBAY is a bidding marketplace unless you use Buy it Now only.  Also, my items are somewhat specialized (for dollhouse enthusiasts and miniature collectors mostly), and it takes time to develop a base of clientele interested in the items you have.  I have to decide on a "starting price" for my item, and this has taken some experimentation for me.  Sometimes, if set too high, there won't be any bids, too low and ya can lose---so, I guess I would say I try to pick "middle of the road" to start my items at.  For the first couple years I sold there, pretty much all my items ended up selling, although not for as much as I'd like.  For the past 6 months it seems EBAY has been somewhat difficult due to the economy.  Currently, I've been selling less items, and have been making a little more detailed items with a higher starting price than what I was selling, and I'm fairly happy with the results.  Also, I'm now selling some of my items at a new auction site for miniatures only, and that has been fairly good for me for a lot lower cost to me than what EBAY charges.  

One thing I've done to try to attract buyers is to join some EBAY groups where I can advertise my items, and even some off EBAY groups dealing with Dollhouse and miniature items.  This has helped my sales immensely.  From my knowledge, there has been only one group interested in pens on EBAY, and I have never seen much action in that group.  I think it's likely that the best time to try pens would be prior to Christmas.


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## jeffj13 (Apr 22, 2008)

I have a couple of thought:

1.  It is pointless to complain about this because:

    a.  it will never change
    b.  it is none of our business what other people charge for 
         their pens 
    c.  it doesn't matter what they charge (if it does, you haven't
        differentiated yourself enough or haven't found the right 
        market)

2.  The cost of our pens has nothing to do with whether or not our 
    talents are appreciated.  If it were, then those who received 
    them as gifts would have the least appreciation for our work.  

jeff


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## rincewind03060 (Apr 22, 2008)

1. Went to Ebay and did an advanced search on completed auctions for "turned pens". 
2. Looked at the number of pens that didn't get any bids at all.
3. Looked at the pathetic price of the few that did sell.
4. Realized that Ebay is the wrong venue for selling my work. Wrong, wrong, wrong!
5. Got on with my life.


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## Rifleman1776 (Apr 22, 2008)

Good comments thus far. IMHO, eBay prices for craft items are indicative of nothing. For collectibles, it can be a valuable resource of information to see what antique widgets sell for.
I once thought about selling my duck calls on eBay but stopped even considering it when I saw how little others were selling theirs for. I recall one call, and maker, in particular. He made beautiful alternate ivory, silver banded and engraved calls and sold them for $25.00. Usually they only brought the opening price. I e-mailed him and suggested he raise the price. Response? He just liked making them and wasn't interested in profit. Or loss, he was losing money on these.
Bottom line? Forget it, don't bother trying to make a buck on eBay with pens.
babyblues said, in part, "most of us aren't in it for the money"  I don't know where he thinks he gets the authority to speak for the rest of us, or "most" of us. Each person does their own thing for their own reasons. I want to make a profit on most of my pens. A percentage of my production is for gifts and donations but the bulk are sold or intended to be. And, hopefully, at a profit.


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## karlkuehn (Apr 22, 2008)

I use Ebay to make a quick buck by selling cheap when I sell there, and unload my low-to-mid grade stuff, usually for enough to pay for the kit and buy maybe two more of the same kit to work with. I never sell my high-end stuff on there because I'd rather build that stock up for when I eventually do a show and actually have to compete with other high end pens.

Most of the pens I see on Ebay are less than masterfully crafted. Anyone who looks at the pictures there and can't tell a bad finish, under/over turning or just plain ugly isn't in the market for a high end pen, anyways. There are a few collectors who buy regularly, but it's got to be a standout pen, and they will pay well for it.

The problem is that Ebay has gotten so super-greedy that it's not worth the listing and selling fees to gamble on one of the real collectors to come through and see your stuff for the 15 minutes that it's actually on the first page of a search.


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## fernhills (Apr 22, 2008)

Hi,I know what you mean,i sell on Etsy,its a little different,but they are selling pens for 10-13 bucks,why,i don`t know,i would rather give them away.I think my pens are priced right for the level i am at right now.I come from a sales back ground and i never pay attention to the competition because you can`t count on them for consistency.
So the lower they go the higher i will go and for the last 2 months i sold more then they did.


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## babyblues (Apr 22, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Rifleman1776_
> 
> babyblues said, in part, "most of us aren't in it for the money"  I don't know where he thinks he gets the authority to speak for the rest of us, or "most" of us. Each person does their own thing for their own reasons. I want to make a profit on most of my pens. A percentage of my production is for gifts and donations but the bulk are sold or intended to be. And, hopefully, at a profit.


Relax friend.  I was simply saying that I was disappointed with it.  If there was anything you should have gleaned from my post it was that I thought he SHOULD be making a profit selling that pen.  I was actually disappointed that more Ebay sellers don't make a profit selling their pens.


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## toolcrazy (Apr 22, 2008)

> _Originally posted by fernhills_
> 
> Hi,I know what you mean,i sell on Etsy,its a little different,but they are selling pens for 10-13 bucks,why,i don`t know,i would rather give them away.I think my pens are priced right for the level i am at right now.I come from a sales back ground and i never pay attention to the competition because you can`t count on them for consistency.
> So the lower they go the higher i will go and for the last 2 months i sold more then they did.



I signed up for Etsy, but haven't posted anything yet. How have you done?

I tried E-bay for a while. Sold a few, got a big custom order out of it. Decided I'm not going to do it any longer.


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## bitshird (Apr 22, 2008)

> _Originally posted by toolcrazy_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Steve, I've sold a couple of pens and some key rings, all but one of the sales were to Scandinavian country's, got to be the balance of trade with the Euro vs Dollar


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## fernhills (Apr 22, 2008)

> _Originally posted by toolcrazy_
> 
> 
> 
> ...




       You should put some in since you went that far,i am pleased at how i have done ,it may be luck. I didn`t like E-Bay at all i pulled out of there completely,confusing,pricey for me,but some guys do well with it.Good Luck Carl


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## Randy_ (Apr 22, 2008)

> _Originally posted by babyblues_
> 
> .....If there was anything you should have gleaned from my post it was that I thought he SHOULD be making a profit selling that pen.  I was actually disappointed that more Ebay sellers don't make a profit selling their pens.



The defect in your thinking is that not everyone is crafting pens for the purpose of making a profit.  Believe it or not, some folks just do it for fun!!  If someone wants to make/sell pens and just break even or even lose money, why is it anybody else's concern?? 



> Am I the only one who gets disgusted at the prices people charge for their pens on Ebay? A turquise tru-stone baron fountain pen for $30?!?! Come on now. That pen is worth at least $100, probably more.



If you think they are so terribly under-priced, why not take advantage of the deal yourself?  Buy the $30 pen, yourself, and resell it for $100.


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## jeffj13 (Apr 23, 2008)

> The defect in your thinking is that not everyone is crafting pens for the purpose of making a profit.  Believe it or not, some folks just do it for fun!!  If someone wants to make/sell pens and just break even or even lose money, why is it anybody else's concern??



QFT - I am always amazed at how many people here want to tell others what to do.

jeff


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## babyblues (Apr 23, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Randy__
> 
> The defect in your thinking is that not everyone is crafting pens for the purpose of making a profit.  Believe it or not, some folks just do it for fun!!  If someone wants to make/sell pens and just break even or even lose money, why is it anybody else's concern??
> 
> If you think they are so terribly under-priced, why not take advantage of the deal yourself?  Buy the $30 pen, yourself, and resell it for $100.


No, there's no defect in my thinking, lol.  I do make pens for fun but I would still like to make a profit.  Let me put it to you this way.  If someone went to a pen show and sold their pens for that price, how do you think the other pen sellers would react?  I realize Ebay is not a pen show, but the principle is the same.  If you're going to sell pens to the general public, you need to price your pens appropriately.  If you're going to sell your pens to your friends or co-workers, than fine, set your own price whatever that may be.  When you sell your product to the general public where people are also selling similar products you need to price your product accordingly.  You can't just sell at drastically reduced prices without expecting to draw the ire of other sellers.  That's just the way it goes.  You don't have to sell your product for the same price, but you need to at least compete.  That's my opinion, yours may differ...so be it.


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## Dario (Apr 23, 2008)

Ebay is a very unpredictable market place.

Some items sell far below value, some way over.  I've seen USED electronics or tools sell more than new.  Antiques, I can understand because of rarity, but things we can buy almost anywhere?  Crazy!

If you want to sell anything, do your research before posting.  With the increase in ebay fees, it almost is not worth it nowadays unless you have no other venue to sell.  My last blitz to sell wood there cost me about 10% (posting fee and final value fee) of my sales! [:O]  I even host my pictures through Photobucket at that.

Wink-wink GENTLE REMINDER FOR OUR IAP SELLERS TO SHARE A BIT OF OUR SALES PROCEEDS TO IAP FOR THE FREE SERVICE 

Supply and demand.  Rarity/collectability can drive the price of anything on eBay off the roof.  Handcrafted pens, sadly doesn't belong to that category because of the supply saturation...made worse by the low price some settle for their work.  I've seen some sell for as low as $0.01 [:O].  It creates a vicious cycle conducive for buyers market.

We all have different motivation, what makes sense to me, may not to the next person.  For all you know, those eBay sellers are calling the people who sell "fine handcrafted writing instruments" for $100.00+ CRAZY!  LOL 

Lets not made sense of everything because they won't.


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## Rifleman1776 (Apr 23, 2008)

> _Originally posted by karlkuehn_
> 
> I use Ebay to make a quick buck by selling cheap when I sell there, and unload my low-to-mid grade stuff, usually for enough to pay for the kit and buy maybe two more of the same kit to work with. I never sell my high-end stuff on there because I'd rather build that stock up for when I eventually do a show and actually have to compete with other high end pens.
> 
> ...



Karl, the downside I see to that approach is that making a few dollars on an eBay sale is usually really a loss. The way I see it, posting an item takes time, there are new and higher fees to pay, and answering possible e-mails then packing and shipping all takes time. Even without answering e-mails, I believe that between posting, acknowledging a purchase, packing and shipping would take a minimum of one hour. For only a couple dollars, I would rather toss the pen on the workbench and use in the shop.


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## TellicoTurning (Apr 23, 2008)

I've used ebay to sell some items, collectibles and such, and have offered some of my pens there, but the fees are rising and the sales are falling, so don't any more... when I first started looking at ebay, there was a guy there that showed up as a power seller, claimed he only did ebay and from his feedback.. when you could actually read all of the feedback.. he was selling 2 or 3 pens a day.  Personally, seems like a lot of effort.  I think I prefer the craft show format... 

I've gone to show with $20, $30 and $100 pens where I only sold the high priced pens... and others where only the lower end sold... Like Dario said, ebay is very unpredicable and so is the craft show format, it's just more fun to meet and talk with my customers.. even if they don't buy anything.

In my opinion, Ebay has gotten so diluted and convaluted that I rarely go there anymore.. 

And I've seen many more beautiful and exquisite pens in the SOYP forum here than I have seen on ebay.


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## babyblues (Apr 23, 2008)

> _Originally posted by ozmandus_
> 
> I've used ebay to sell some items, collectibles and such, and have offered some of my pens there, but the fees are rising and the sales are falling, so don't any more... when I first started looking at ebay, there was a guy there that showed up as a power seller, claimed he only did ebay and from his feedback.. when you could actually read all of the feedback.. he was selling 2 or 3 pens a day.  Personally, seems like a lot of effort.  I think I prefer the craft show format...
> 
> ...


Yeah, I'm looking into some craft shows that are put on by a Craftsman association in my state.  I'm in Maine, so there isn't much in the way of pen shows in this area.  I guess I'll just have to break down and start a website.  For those of you with websites, how do you generate hits?  What are some good ways to advertise?


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## fernhills (Apr 23, 2008)

> _Originally posted by ozmandus_
> 
> I've used ebay to sell some items, collectibles and such, and have offered some of my pens there, but the fees are rising and the sales are falling, so don't any more... when I first started looking at ebay, there was a guy there that showed up as a power seller, claimed he only did ebay and from his feedback.. when you could actually read all of the feedback.. he was selling 2 or 3 pens a day.  Personally, seems like a lot of effort.  I think I prefer the craft show format...
> 
> ...



       2 or 3 Pens a day,i would kiss a frog for those sales.Carl


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## Hello (Apr 23, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Rifleman1776_
> 
> IMHO, eBay prices for craft items are indicative of nothing.



True, but they may have weight/meaning when one applies babyblues' signature line....!


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## Russianwolf (Apr 23, 2008)

> _Originally posted by babyblues_
> You can't just sell at drastically reduced prices without expecting to draw the ire of other sellers.  That's just the way it goes.  You don't have to sell your product for the same price, but you need to at least compete.  That's my opinion, yours may differ...so be it.


Without getting into the right or wrong of it, Why can't you?

If I go to a show and there are 3 pen sellers there all charging about $35 for a cigar pen. I come in and start selling my cigar pens for $20. They either match my price or I take there sales. 

Some vendors will do this intentionally to drive competition away with the lost sales, and only when the market share is mostly theirs do they start increasing prices to more market levels.

right or wrong, it's a business practice that is employed.

When you dicide to sell something, you decide that you want a profit margin of 20% lets say. Others may decide that they can live with 10%, others 5%. No one is wrong. They are just making decisions based on what they want to achieve.


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## karlkuehn (Apr 23, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Russianwolf_
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well said, Mike. Gotta love business! It's just the nature of it, and sometimes it's going to be great, sometimes it's going to sting.

I try to endeavor to make things with designs that are unique enough that I can sell for what I think they're worth.

The only time I get a little miffed is when someone steals an aesthetic design and starts selling it in competition. As far as methods, no one can do anything about that. You can't get mad at someone for making pens and giving them away, but if they start duplicating your proprietary designs, then you've got a beef.

The best way to avoid any of this is to just keep coming up with new designs and protecting existing stuff, but the protection is pretty tough for small guys like us.


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## Jarheaded (Apr 23, 2008)

I charge what I feel my pens are worth when I do a show. I was 2 spaces away from a guy that was selling slim lines for $12 each. I was charging $20 each and out sold him 3-1. Some people want to pay more because they feel they are getting more. I sold mostly TN, while the other guy sold only 24kt. His fit and finish was the sign of someone that "blows out 10-15 pens an hour" to quote him. He got mad at me for explaining the difference in the plating to customers, but at no time did I ever bad mouth him or even make a reference to him. He also sells on ebay for a low price. He later told me that if he can make $150 profit at a show, he was happy. I wish him good luck. Hopefully his work is not giving us all a bad name.


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## arioux (Apr 23, 2008)

> _Originally posted by babyblues_


No, there's no defect in my thinking, lol.  I do make pens for fun but I would still like to make a profit.  Let me put it to you this way.  If someone went to a pen show and sold their pens for that price, how do you think the other pen sellers would react?  I realize Ebay is not a pen show, but the principle is the same.  If you're going to sell pens to the general public, you need to price your pens appropriately. 

*Says who ??????*

 If you're going to sell your pens to your friends or co-workers, than fine, set your own price whatever that may be.  When you sell your product to the general public where people are also selling similar products you need to price your product accordingly.

*Says who ???????*

  You can't just sell at drastically reduced prices without expecting to draw the ire of other sellers. 

*So ??????*

 That's just the way it goes.  You don't have to sell your product for the same price, but you need to at least compete.

*Again, says who ?????*

[/quote]

Now don't get me wrong, i set my prices to a good market price, comparable to what most of the other member here ask.  But if i decide to sell less, that's my call whatever it's online or at any show.  Every where in the world, that's called "free market".
I've done show with an other turner selling half my price and sadly, his pen where looking as good if not sometimes better than mine.  What could i do ?  What can anyone could do about it.  Break his nose ??  I quit the show and let it to him because i did'nt want to set my work value this low.  Again that was my call.  Thse kind of debate are usually very sterile bacause there is no issue.  

Alfred


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## babyblues (Apr 23, 2008)

> _Originally posted by arioux_
> Now don't get me wrong, i set my prices to a good market price, comparable to what most of the other member here ask.  But if i decide to sell less, that's my call whatever it's online or at any show.  Every where in the world, that's called "free market".
> I've done show with an other turner selling half my price and sadly, his pen where looking as good if not sometimes better than mine.  What could i do ?  What can anyone could do about it.  Break his nose ??  I quit the show and let it to him because i did'nt want to set my work value this low.  Again that was my call.  Thse kind of debate are usually very sterile bacause there is no issue.
> Alfred


I can accept that people have differing points of view, but I will not accept being patronized.  I'm just voicing my opinion.

I'm not saying that we should make anyone do anything.  I'm simply stating my thoughts about some of the pricing I've seen on Ebay.  It is what it is.


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## Randy_ (Apr 23, 2008)

> _Originally posted by babyblues_.....If someone went to a pen show and sold their pens for that price, how do you think the other pen sellers would react.....


To be blunt, I don't care how the other sellers feel.  It is a free market.  The problem is theirs, not mine.  It is up to them to convince their market that their pens are worth what they are asking.




> _Originally posted by babyblues_.....That's my opinion, yours may differ...so be it.


I can live with that.


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## Randy_ (Apr 23, 2008)

> _Originally posted by babyblues_
> 
> .....Relax friend......



Kind of a puzzling comment from someone who had this to say in a later post??



> _Originally posted by babyblues_
> 
> .....I can accept that people have differing points of view, but I will not accept being patronized......


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## Celt40 (Apr 23, 2008)

I have tried to sell my pens on Ebay for what they are worth. I live in the UK and my only sale to date was to USA. I was quite happy just to make my pens and only cover enough to let me buy more stock to feed my addiction. It is up to me to sell my pens at whatever price i want, as this is just a hobby to me.
I also think that having your own Web site to sell is the best way to get a fairer price, but the cost of having a web site will make you prices higher, as you have now added cost that will need to be met before a profit is made.
I would like to have my own site but i would not know the first thing about setting one up. Not because i want to make lots of money, but as a way to fund my need to make pens.


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## jeffj13 (Apr 23, 2008)

> _Originally posted by babyblues_
> If you're going to sell pens to the general public, you need to price your pens appropriately.  If you're going to sell your pens to your friends or co-workers, than fine, set your own price whatever that may be.  When you sell your product to the general public where people are also selling similar products you need to price your product accordingly.



There is no maliciousness meant here, just curious. What gives you the right to tell me, or anyone, what to do?


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## Randy_ (Apr 23, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Dario_
> 
> .....My last blitz to sell wood there cost me about 10% (posting fee and final value fee) of my sales! [:O]  I even host my pictures through Photobucket at that......



I know prices have gone up on eBay recently and I haven't sold anything there in several years.  So I thought I would review their current price structure to see what the real numbers are.

Unless I missed something, the total fee for selling a $100 pen would be $6.96.  For the mathematically challenged, that is slightly less than 7%.  Because of eBay's fee structure, the percentage will change depending upon the final price of the item; but assuming you list your item at half of the final sales price, here are the fee percentages(rounded to closest 1%) for a few different final sale prices.

$1.00.......39%
$10.00......14%
$50.00......12%
$100.00......7%
$500.00......4%   

Obviously, selling very low-priced items on eBay is not the way to go; but to my way of thinking, a 7% fee for selling a $100 pen is still pretty reasonable.  Compare that to what you would have to pay for a classified ad in the newspaper or what you would have to pay a consignment house or what your costs would be for selling at a craft show and I think eBay is still a bargain.  And the other consideration is that you will probably reach a much greater number of potential customers on eBay than in most other venues.

That being said, the one problem I see with eBay is that the people who visit there are mostly motivated by finding bargains so people in other markets might be more highly motivated buyers and willing to purchase at higher prices.

Another thing strikes me as being a little ironic about the eBay discussion.  No one has criticized eBay for its low fees relative to other market places and how eBay undercuts these other marketers.  And what is even more puzzling is that they get heavily criticized for raising their fees and presumably bring their fees more in line with other marketers.  Seems like some people want their cake and eat it too?

Guess it just depends upon which side of the fence you are sitting at any particular moment??


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## Randy_ (Apr 23, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Celt40_
> 
> .....Not because i want to make lots of money, but as a way to fund my need to make pens.



And pay for dog food!!


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## Dario (Apr 23, 2008)

Randy,

I am not sure how their fees compared to others since I never tried "others".

eBay basically cornered the online auction market and you do get the most traffic but my latest billing is almost twice what I am expecting.  I have paid all my previous bills so I know my recent bill is only for the last postings.

Note that they charge you separate fees for "posting" and for the "final value".  My sales for 26 items (wood not pens) was $718.92 (averaged at $27.65 per lot) and my bill is $70.47.  Yes not quite 10% but very close at 9.8%.  If I remember it correctly, it would have only been around $35.00 based on their previous fee structure.

I am just talking about myself but I did slow down selling on eBay because of very low return (unless you have something that everybody wants) and the increase on fees.


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## Tom McMillan (Apr 23, 2008)

I really don't care what others charge.  I've sold at shows where others sold for less.  I've never been real good a sales, so I rely on other methods such as website sales (I sold my pens on a group website for awhile), and as I said with my minis on EBAY.

I think there are a number of folk like me who aren't great at sales and some who are disabled where it would be difficult to do regular shows and such.  Perhaps a website, group website, or an auction site would be preferable for that person.

A starting price at an auction is just that---a starting price.  There are different approaches to this.  I know one person who's sold minis quite successfully who started at 99 cents for each of their pieces.  This person had been selling on EBAY real early, belonged to IGMA (International Guild of Miniatures), and had a great following.  The bids went very high each time I've watched (this person doesn't sell now due to other endeavors).  Different strokes for different folks--everyone has the right to price their items as they see fit and that really doesn't bother me.  As far as miniatures, I've watched a lot of people come onto the scene with high expectations only to move on to other endeavors because there is a lot of competition & it seems pens haven't been a great item for EBAY.

I think a lot of those trying to market their pens on EBAY, don't stay too long.

I really think if someone is interested in selling pens on EBAY they should do some homework.  To start with, I think it would be wise to start a group dedicated to pens, which may attract buyers and sellers both.  Get some interaction going, and find out what kind of interest there is from buyers especially.  Also, I think it would be wise to show the product in other groups where pens might be a good item to promote.  I don't think there's a logical solution for auction sites, but I do think the group promotions have some merit due to the partial success I've had.


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## Tom McMillan (Apr 23, 2008)

While the fees on EBAY have changed, the actual listing fee has actually been alot lower for me since now the gallery is included in the listing fee.  While the final value fees have gone up some, overall I am acutally saving a little on most of my items.  This depends on what the item ends up selling for, so this can vary.  

I would suggest, it might be wise to check out other auction sites.  The miniatures only website I've referred to, only charges 25 cents listing fee (for items starting at $9.99 and less), and there is no final value fee, so I'm saving a lot for items I'm able to sell at that site.  This isn't a site for pens, though, and I don't know the fees at Etsy and other similar sites.


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## karlkuehn (Apr 23, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Randy__
> ... 7% fee for selling a $100 pen is still pretty reasonable....



Now, when you take into account the multiple listing fees that you have to pay to relist an item, or 10 items, when it/they don't sell the first time around, and Paypal (also owned by Ebay) fees, that 7% really swells up. Especially at the $20-$50 12%+ sales cost range, which is where most stuff sells there.

That's another reason I sell cheap there. I'd rather list something once and make $15 on a $20 sale than list it three times and make $15 on a $25 sale. &lt;-numbers aren't right, but you get the idea.


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## babyblues (Apr 23, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Randy__
> 
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To be blunt do some research on the theory of free market.  A truly "free market" doesn't work.


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## babyblues (Apr 23, 2008)

> _Originally posted by jeffj13_
> 
> 
> 
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The use of the word "you" was not directed toward anyone in particular.  I was not telling anyone what to do.  I was using the word to give an example.


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## babyblues (Apr 23, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Randy__
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What exactly was the point to this post?


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## Randy_ (Apr 23, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Dario_
> 
> Randy,
> 
> I am not sure how their fees compared to others since I never tried "others".....



Dario:  I just checked the classified rate for the Dallas newspaper.

3 lines for 10 days = $52 + $15 for each additional line

Not quite an apples to apples comparison; but it does give some idea of what another venue might cost.


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## Dario (Apr 23, 2008)

Randy,

I also checked Craigslist and it is free.


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## jeffj13 (Apr 24, 2008)

> _Originally posted by babyblues_
> 
> 
> 
> ...



True enough.  It was directed at everyone.  The question still remains.

jeff


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## babyblues (Apr 24, 2008)

> _Originally posted by jeffj13_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


OK, what gives me the right.  Do I need a reason?  I'm not telling anyone what to do, but if I were, why should I justify it to you, lol?  I'm not going to apologize for thinking I actually know what I'm talking about.  My opinion isn't gospel, but I wouldn't say anything if I didn't think it was correct.  Doesn't everyone think that what they have to say is correct?  Don't you think that what you say is correct?  I'm no different in that regard.  In the spirit of working together, yes, people "should" price their product accordingly.  That obviously doesn't mean that everyone is going to do that.  I guess I made the mistake of assuming that didn't need to be spelled out.  If working together isn't important to someone than they're probably just going to do what they want, because they're the only one that matters, right?  Is it really so offensive to say that I would hope someone could think outside themselves?  I mean, it doesn't matter which side of the profit fence I stand on, someone is going to think I'm telling them what to do.  Yes, people literally "can" do whatever they want.  That said, I'm still disappointed that some choose to disregard the value of our product.  That rarely promotes cooperation and goodwill, especially when there is no regard for the effect one's actions have on the group as a whole.  Anyway....I'm getting too wrapped up in this.  I need to get "lathed".


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## CrazyBear (Apr 25, 2008)

The problem with trying to influence what others charge for ANY ITEM is that you have the danger of cartels and price fixing. If you think that this is a good idea then take that thought with you when you decide to fill your tank with gas or buy a diamond ring. These prices are not fixed by supply and demand but by people sitting round a table and setting the price for their product. If opec wasnt in charge of oil production then the cost of your fuel would fall. If De bears didnt hoard as much of the worlds diamond production as it does then the cost of the diamond ring would fall through the floor. 

Yes those who sell pens want as much profit for their work as they can manage, but they cannot complain if someone else is prepared to sell their pens for less.

Pens are a form of art. There are masters ( The leonardo's and the van goghs of this world) and there are the simple artisans who can make a decent pen. Are you arguing that if each made a slimline out of the same materials then they should both charge the same price for what would be a vastly differing product.


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## babyblues (Apr 25, 2008)

> _Originally posted by CrazyBear_
> 
> The problem with trying to influence what others charge for ANY ITEM is that you have the danger of cartels and price fixing. If you think that this is a good idea then take that thought with you when you decide to fill your tank with gas or buy a diamond ring. These prices are not fixed by supply and demand but by people sitting round a table and setting the price for their product. If opec wasnt in charge of oil production then the cost of your fuel would fall. If De bears didnt hoard as much of the worlds diamond production as it does then the cost of the diamond ring would fall through the floor.
> 
> ...


I see what you're saying, but selling commodities like oil is different than selling a value added product like pens.  My argument is that if two artists of equal talent made the same pen out of the same material, than it would be beneficial for them both to charge similar prices, instead of one selling at half the price of the other.  By Value Added, I mean that our process adds value to the end product that is recognized when it is sold.

A large part of the problem with the price of gasoline is the cost of distribution.  How do you get crude oil to the refineries and then to the consumer as fast as the consumer needs it when the consumer needs it?  OPEC can't just double their output of crude oil.  Even if they could, how would you refine it fast enough?  Our refineries are opperating at near capacity as it is.  Oil futures are a huge part of it.  With the economy the way it is, you have all these funds looking for somewhere to invest their hundreds of millions of dollars and oil futures are where it's at right now.  It's hard to explain in laymens terms, but all the buying and selling of oil futures is driving the price of oil through the roof.  Here's a website that gives a pretty good explanation of it.  http://www.env-econ.net/2005/08/from_the_answer.html


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## Texatdurango (Apr 25, 2008)

> _Originally posted by babyblues_
> 
> ... My argument is that if two artists of equal talent made the same pen out of the same material, than it would be beneficial for them both to charge similar prices, instead of one selling at half the price of the other....


I don't think this is realistic thinking at all!  

Let's say that in your perfect world, you and several fellow pen makers of equal talent decides that a fair price for a particular pen is $50.  Then one day an equally talented pen maker from China or anywhere actually, comes along selling that same pen for $20 thinking his price is fair.

Who is to be the judge that determines what the real fair price should be?

Personally, I think there are way too many folks assembling pens around here that over value their skills!  And as long as there are those folks around, pen prices will fluctuate widely.



> _Originally posted by babyblues_
> 
> Anyway....I'm getting too wrapped up in this.


I do totally agree with this comment however....  Relax and go turn a blank!


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## Mudder (Apr 25, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Texatdurango_
> 
> Personally, I think there are way too many folks assembling pens around here that over value their skills!  And as long as there are those folks around, pen prices will fluctuate widely.



Excellent point!


However I agree and also disagree.

I've seen some pens that I wouldn't have paid ten bucks for sell for what I would consider to be highway robbery. I think one needs to find a proper "price point". I went to one show selling cigar pens at $25-$35 and people didn't buy them because the got the perception that they were "cheap pens". Raised the price at the next show to $35-$45 and they started to sell. Don't ask me why, they just did.

I have come to determine that the "value" of anything is EXACTLY what you can get someone to pay for it.


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## babyblues (Apr 25, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Texatdurango_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My example was not meant to be taken literally.  It was overly perfect and simplistic to illustrate the point.  All things being equal, the price should be the same.  Obviously all things will never be equal.  Even if the craftsmanship of two different pens is equal, their appeal to the customer will determine who will buy which pen for how much.  Location is another big factor too.  Eventually, the fair price thing will work itself out.  No one is the judge persay.  What messes that up is people who don't care about charging a fair price.  That includes both people who charge far more than their skills warrant and those who charge far less than their skills warrant.  It's hard to determine a fair price when your customers can go buy from someone who doesn't care about a fair price.


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## Russianwolf (Apr 25, 2008)

Jason,
  I've read your last post about 6 times. I think you are contradicting yourself. You say no one is the judge of fair price parsay, but then go on to say that some charge more or less than fair price for their skills. So obviously you are judging them based on your perception of their skills. 

So, let's put it this way. Two vendors are set up side by side in the middle of a show. Both artists are equally skilled and turn their pens exactly the same way. They are both selling the same model pens made from the same solid colored acrylic blanks from the same manufacturers. So everything is identical. Booth set up and all. 

One vendor sells his pens at cost + 100%. The other sells his for cost +1%. Who has the fair price? Who is the judge?

Correct Answer, the vendor and his customers. The vendor set's what he feels is a fair price and the customer will pay what they feel is a fair price. If he undervalues his wares then that's his problem, if he overvalues then he will likely not sell much.

Wrong answer, the vendor in the next booth. While he may disagre with the pricing, he can't place a proper value on what the other vendor is trying to accomplish.


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