# Bushings and their interchangeability



## RussFairfield (Jun 20, 2006)

The question is often asked whether one manufacturers bushings can be used on another's pen. The real problem is finding a set of bushings that are the correct size. It seems that there is no dimensional control of their diameters, and no manufacturer is any better than the others.

An example is the 7mm Slim-Line pen. The diameter of the pen fitting at the tip is a constant 0.329" to 0.330" for all manufacturers. I have no idea what the target bushing diameter should be, but the ones I have measured vary between 0.321" to 0.346". And then we wonder why everyone has a problem with getting a good fit between the wood and the fittings. If we get a set that is right, and they are all the same within the set, we can consider ourselves lucky. I haven't found the bushings for the other kits to be any better.

Some have solved this dimensional problem by making their own bushings. I solved it by not using the bushings for a diameter control of the wood, and turn to a diameter as measured with a dial caliper.


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## Fangar (Jun 20, 2006)

Russ raises a good point (For once... Geeze []).  I use a digital caliper and only use the bushings as a reference.  The unfortunate thing is machine tolerances in bushings.  I have had bushings off by as much as almost 3 thousanths.  I have machinist friends who constantly have to work at maintaining precise tolerances.  There is no set it an forget it.  Bruce Boone will likely attest to this having experienced it in his line of precise work.

Fangar


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## its_virgil (Jun 20, 2006)

I, too, learned early on that bushings were mostly to hold the tubes and blanks and to turn with calipers close by. Bushings are for reference and the calipers are for accuracy. Both ends of each blank should be fitted to the pen parts for the best fit. Keep those calipers handy and if you don't own any the best investment you could make would be to buy some. 
Do a good turn daily!
Don


> _Originally posted by Fangar_
> <br />Russ raises a good point (For once... Geeze []).  I use a digital caliper and only use the bushings as a reference.  The unfortunate thing is machine tolerances in bushings.  I have had bushings off by as much as almost 3 thousanths.  I have machinist friends who constantly have to work at maintaining precise tolerances.  There is no set it an forget it.  Bruce Boone will likely attest to this having experienced it in his line of precise work.
> 
> Fangar


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## Dario (Jun 20, 2006)

Yep, calipers are indespensible.  [^]

That is why I love the bushing chart that Huzzah made.  I don't have to measure the kit every now and then...just flip through the pages of my binder for that particular pen. [^]

I also use it for all other notes I may have for that particular kit.


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## Randy_ (Jun 20, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Dario_
> <br />Yep, calipers are indespensible.  [^]
> 
> That is why I love the bushing chart that Huzzah made.  I don't have to measure the kit every now and then...just flip through the pages of my binder for that particular pen. [^]
> ...



Dario:  That is a dangerous shortcut and sooner or later, you will get burned.  If tolerances can vary so much on bushings, they will also vary on the hardware as well.  The "BEST" method to assure a good fit would be to measure the hardware of each kit before you turn it!!


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## Dario (Jun 20, 2006)

Randy,

I do measure my kit first and compare it with his chart.  Unlike the bushing which can be sanded, the chart sizes will not change.  Are you saying that the kit sizes vary also?


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## its_virgil (Jun 20, 2006)

The parts in (for example)baron kit A and baron kit B may vary....I mike the parts that transition to the wood on each and every kit. It is now part of my routine...I'm not Randy...hope my answer counts.[]





> _Originally posted by Dario_
> Do a good turn daily!
> Don
> 
> ...


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## Randy_ (Jun 20, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Dario_
> <br />Randy.....Are you saying that the kit sizes vary also?



Yes. Dario.  That is exactly what Don and I are saying!!  The kit hardware "MAY" vary, too.  You have to check every kit if you don't want any surprises.  I can't tell you if it is 1 in 10, 1 in 100 or 1 in 1000; but there is going to be some variation and it is bound to be that extra special blank when the problem occurs.  It only takes a few seconds to mike the hardware and write down the dimensions....just not worth taking a chance on screwing up a nice blank , IMHO!!


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## Dario (Jun 20, 2006)

Randy and Don,

Thanks!  I never thought of that [].  I guess I give the kit manufacturer's more credit than deserved. []


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## RussFairfield (Jun 21, 2006)

Beginners should pay attention. There is a point here that is always missing from our discussions of bushings, and that is how we use them. These messages are from folks with pencrafting experience. None of them rely on the bushings for the final sizing the wood pen barrels. 

I hope the beginners to pencrafting are getting the message that one  of the biggest improvements in the quality and fit of our pens is an investment in a dial caliper. That allows us to fit the wood to the metal pen parts, and not use the bushings to determine the diameter of the pen barrel. Yes, it takes longer to do it this way, but the results are worth the extra time.


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## Firefyter-emt (Jun 21, 2006)

OK, as a newbie.. Here is a question, I have started doing this myself. I will take the tip on measureing the hardware itself too. Diffrent wood sand slower or faster. How close do you typicaly turn the wood before you start with the sandpaper? Do you keep the same spec or thicker for softer woods?


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## Dario (Jun 21, 2006)

No easy answer to this one.

It all depends on how smooth you turn your wood.  

If you can really get smooth finish (and level) enought then stop where you can just sand with 320 grit.  Meaning almost right on the exact size.   IF you are having tear out, etc. then you have to stop much sooner than that and pull a much coarser grit sandpaper.

As a rule, harder wood won't get cut by sandpaper as deep or as easily as softer wood.   It can be good or bad depends on how you look at it.  Good because the chances of you accidentally having a geep cut is less but bad since it will take longer to sand down if you need to.

Hope this helps


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## blodal (Jun 21, 2006)

I really love this site!!!!!  Thanks guys for your expert input on this topic. Learning on your own is challenging, but the advice here is a tremendous help.

Keep up the good work.


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## its_virgil (Jun 21, 2006)

And the thickness of the finish comes into account. I use 4 coats of med CA and that builds somewhat. When I do lacquer, the buildup is less. I use a skew and get a very smooth surface after final cut. Start sanding with 320 or 400, then 600 then MM before CA. The sanding removes liitle material. I think I'll do a test barrell, measure before and after sanding and after finishing and record the measurements so I'll  know how to answer this question next time it comes around. The more pens one turns the more automatic this comes. I wish I could give some numerical measurements. Maybe someone else is more organized than I and already has these measurements. Interesting thread!
Do a good turn daily!
Don


> _Originally posted by Dario_
> <br />No easy answer to this one.
> 
> It all depends on how smooth you turn your wood.
> ...


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## alparent (Jun 21, 2006)

So basicly getting a set of bushing matching every new kit I'm trying, is a wast of money! Since I can't relly on them for size, they only serve to hold the blank. So getting a set of bushing for every tube size and using the calliper make more economical sense? So why are we all buying all of those bushings then?


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## Dario (Jun 21, 2006)

> _Originally posted by blodal_
> <br />I really love this site!!!!!  Thanks guys for your expert input on this topic. Learning on your own is challenging, but the advice here is a tremendous help.
> 
> Keep up the good work.



One thing for sure...whenever Russ, James, Don, Randy, Wayne, Lou, Anthony, Jim, Paul, William, Bruce, Michael, Mudder, Frank, Billy, Gerry, etc. (sorry can't name everyone here) opens their mouth or start typing [], I try to listen/read well because it is always "meaty".

I've got so much respect for these guys. [^][^][^]


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## Dario (Jun 21, 2006)

> _Originally posted by alparent_
> <br />So basicly getting a set of bushing matching every new kit I'm trying, is a wast of money! Since I can't relly on them for size, they only serve to hold the blank. So getting a set of bushing for every tube size and using the calliper make more economical sense? So why are we all buying all of those bushings then?



It is not a waste since you use it still as a guide...but the message is do not rely on it too much.

Other bushings also have a shim to make the tube properly get centered on smaller mandrels which you cannot easily make yourself. 

All in all as imperfect as they are, they are worth the money if you want to make descent pens.


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## alparent (Jun 21, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Dario_
> <br />
> 
> 
> ...



I could say the same thing but I would add your name to the list.
Not sucking up, just giving due respect where it's needed.


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## its_virgil (Jun 21, 2006)

Alain,
A waste of money, not at all...or maybe yes. I have a set of bushings for each kit style. I find it easier to grab a kit and grab the bushings for that kit than to grab a kit and then figure out which bushing set will work. It was much easier in the beginning to have bushings for each kit. I could probably work with fewer bushings set now, but I still have bushings for each kit style and still use them, but for reference only. Bushings are relatively inexpensive and they last a long time. There are stepped bushings that have several tube sizes available, or thay could be machined.







I make a couple of pens from CSUK and they have no bushings for them. I make my own from aluminum, corian, or other material. Remember, they are used for reference only. 

Do a good turn daily!
Don





<br />





> _Originally posted by alparent_
> <br />So basicly getting a set of bushing matching every new kit I'm trying, is a wast of money! Since I can't relly on them for size, they only serve to hold the blank. So getting a set of bushing for every tube size and using the calliper make more economical sense? So why are we all buying all of those bushings then?


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## Mudder (Jun 21, 2006)

Very good thread with lots of useful information.

I canâ€™t help but to wonder if some folks over do it a little though. A caliper or a micrometer are always within arms reach whenever Iâ€™m turning on the lathe. And being that my 9 to 5 is being a Quality â€œStupidvisorâ€ I tend to want to turn my pens to .001â€ of the kit diameter but I can tell you that I seriously doubt that you can see or feel if you are off by up to .003â€. Another thing Iâ€™ve seen and Iâ€™ve seen it on slimlines and cigars mostly is that the diameter that presses into the tube at the nib is not concentric with the outside diameter.I have also seen a few parts where circularity left a lot to be desired. I guess my point is that with all of the variables like finish thickness, plating variances, shrinking or swelling of wood and a whole host of other things, If I end up within .004â€ of my target diameter Iâ€™ll stick a fork in it and call it done. I would sure like to hear from other penturners as to what they consider to be their â€œacceptable toleranceâ€?


What say you?


Definitions:

Concentricity- Two or more features sharing a common axis or center point.

Circularity- The apparent roundness of a 2 dimensional figure


&lt;Edited to add definitions&gt;


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## Mudder (Jun 21, 2006)

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=47257

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=5658

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=47256


All fine tools and well worth the investment.


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## alparent (Jun 21, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Mudder_
> <br />I would sure like to hear from other penturners as to what they consider to be their â€œacceptable toleranceâ€?



If it look good to my eyes and it feels good to my fingures!
That good enought for me.


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## PenWorks (Jun 21, 2006)

I always use two sets of bushings for turning. One set is for cutting only, Visually, they always retain their squareness and I mic the ends. After turning, I replace the bushings with my old worn out ones. I do my sanding and finishing with these. They are ussually so worn and coated with finish, I get no metal carry over onto my wood. Also forces me to mic the ends because they are so worn out. Just happens to work for me.


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## airrat (Jun 21, 2006)

Its funny how far off bushings can be.  I bought a set of Cigar bushings from Woodcraft due to Robert(Hastur) and I having to turn alot of them for an order.  Just curious to see if they were the same I micro'd them.  I was shocked.

I do believe it is time to get in the habit of doing it to all pens as I turn.


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## blodal (Jun 21, 2006)

> _Originally posted by alparent_
> <br />
> 
> 
> ...



I second that. Add Dario to the list.

Thanks Dario!


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## Randy_ (Jun 21, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Mudder_
> <br />.....but I can tell you that I seriously doubt that you can see or feel if you are off by up to .003â€.....




I haven't ever run an actual touch test, myself, to see what I could feel and what I couldn't; but I have read that the average human being cannot detect an offset of less than 0.003", so Scott is right on target unless he runs into someone with super sensitive fingers.[^][^]


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## Randy_ (Jun 21, 2006)

http://www.harborfreightusa.com/usa/itemdisplay/displayItem.do?itemid=40926&CategoryName=&SubCategoryName=

Perhaps this should be a discussion for another thread(?) but since the subject has been raised here.....

I've used a standard manual vernier that I purchased many years ago in its home country of Japan.  It has served me well; but as the years pass by it gets harder and harder to read.  When I took up pencrafting , I decided it was time to get a vernier that was a little easier to read.  The obvious choice was a one with a digital readout.  However, during my research, I found quite a few comments indicating that the digitals consumed batteries like candy, particularly if you got one without an automatic cutoff function.  Knowing myself, I knew it would be frustrating as #### to want to take a measurement only to find out the battery was shot so I opted for a dial caliper.  

I was concerned about the possibility of the delicate rack and gear mechanism of a dial caliper getting corrupted by the dust and chips of a woodworking shop and asked about that issue on several different woodworking forums.  Multiple responses from experienced woodworkers suggested that it was not a problem.  I am careful to keep the tool in its case when not in use and I blow it out after every use with compressed air.  Had it about 2 years now without any problems.  I bought the one linked above from Harbor Freight.....a little under $25 IIRC.  It measurer's in metric units and inches.  That means there are two pointers instead of one; but you really can't get them mixed up.

BTW, Apparently, they only sell these in the retail stores as I could not find this model on the HF Internet store.


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## RussFairfield (Jun 21, 2006)

Most people can feel the thickness of a sheet of 20 lb. copy paper on a smooth surface and that is 0.0024" for the paper that I use.

I don't know about the others, but I prefer the wood to be slightly larger than the metal fitting, and not the other way around. 

A cut depth of 0.005" is relatively easy to do with a sharp skew; but it does take some practice to do that with any consistency. 

I saw the biggest improvement in the roundness and concentricity of my pen barrels when I started using a collet chuck to hold the mandrel.


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## Mudder (Jun 21, 2006)

> _Originally posted by RussFairfield_
> <br />Most people can feel the thickness of a sheet of 20 lb. copy paper on a smooth surface and that is 0.0024" for the paper that I use.



I use several taper rods at work to set snap gages for the centerless grinders they usually begin on one dimension and then have a taper up to the next dimension that is .002 bigger
I.E. it will be .2500 for 1 inch and taper up to .2520 and .2540 and so on for .010 over a 6â€ legnth. If there was not a mark where the taper is I would defy anyone to tell me the difference of .002 or .004 by feel. Iâ€™m holding a cheap blur papermate pen right now and it tapers .008 from end to end. I doubt that you can detect the taper using your fingers.

I would suggest two things:

I doubt that you are feeling the thickness of the paper, instead your brain is interpreting the abrupt edge, the visual queue and the change in texture and registering that as a change.

Second, if your 20 lb bond is only .0024 then there is a problem. One of our major customers is a company who manufactures high speed mail sorting and envelope stuffing machines and their engineer confirmed that the industry standard thickness of 20 lb bond paper is from .0031 to .0042.


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## RussFairfield (Jun 21, 2006)

I was not trying to get into an argument over specifics with anyone. I quit being specific about anything when I quit working. Life is easier and less stressful that way. I now use Pi=3, because that is close enough for me; and I no longer wear a watch because I can guess the time within an hour, and that too is close enough for me. 

What I was trying to do was illustrate that we can feel the difference in small increments of dimensional change at an abrupt edge, as in the joint between the wood pen barrel and the metal fitting. I can feel the step between the wood and the metal when it measures about 0.003", and I can see the step when it reaches 0.010". Personally, I can keep the step to less than 0.005" with some consistency.  I don't always get that closw a fit, but that doesn't mean I shouldn't try.  Others will have different abilities and have a difference of opinion as to what is good enough for them, and I have no problem with that.

As for the actual thickness of a sheet of paper, I looked at what I am using and it says 18-pound on the label and it measures 0.0024" thickness with the old 0-1" micrometer. I do buy cheap paper, so I am probably getting what I am paying for. []


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## Randy_ (Jun 21, 2006)

Since I just happen to be sitting  with my vernier in hand as I just finished a post about same, here are some items to consider.  Don't know that they answer the question; but they do add a few pieces to the puzzle.



> _Originally posted by RussFairfield_
> <br />....Most people can feel the thickness of a sheet of 20 lb. copy paper on a smooth surface and that is 0.0024" for the paper that I use.....


According to my actual measurements:
Scotch tape = 0.002"
Newspaper = 0.003"
15# Printer paper = 0.0035"
20# Copy paper = 0.004"





> _Originally posted by RussFairfield_
> <br />....I doubt that you can detect the taper using your fingers.....
> I doubt that you are feeling the thickness of the paper, instead your brain is interpreting the abrupt edge, the visual queue and the change in texture and registering that as a change.


Scott:Yes and no.  I agree with your analysis that detecting paper thickness has to do with changing texture, visual cues etc; but your suggestion about detecting tapers is not germane to this discussion.  We are talking about detecting a discrete "STEP" in diameter between pen hardware and wood.....the most common interface where this is a problem is at the tip where the pen is held.   

I just performed the following experiment for fun....don't know if I am typical or not; but this is what I found.  First off, I laid one piece of newspaper on top of another and without looking, ran my finger across the paper.  The "step" from one page to the other was very noticeable; but I do not think it would be objectionable at the tip/wood interface on a pen.  Next, I did the same thing with Scotch tape.....used two pieces so there would be no change of texture.  Again, without looking, I could feel the "step"; but just barely.....don't think it would be detectable on a pen by the average person??  And finally, I got out a pen that was given to me....a PSI Traditional Roller Ball.....as an evaluation pen by a new turner.  The wood was proud by anywhere from 0.004" to 0.0065".  At the larger end, the difference was very obvious visually and tactilly and I would guess that most people would notice it.  At the lower end the difference was not so obvious.  I would guess that pencrafters and discerning buyers would notice it; but that the average pen buyer probably would not.


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## Randy_ (Jun 21, 2006)

> _Originally posted by RussFairfield_
> <br />.....and I no longer wear a watch because I can guess the time within an hour, and that too is close enough for me......



Yeah; but is it close enough for your wife when taking her out to dinner??[][]


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## sptfr43 (Jun 21, 2006)

when I first started turning pens I tried to work from the bushings but found that I get  better results by measuring the hardware at each end of the tubes and using my digital caliper to tell me when I am at the right size. so as long as the bushing holds the blank from wobbling on the mandrel they are good enough


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## leehljp (Jun 21, 2006)

Thanks Randy, on the comments on the vernier VS digital readouts. I was thinking about this too. I think the better digitals today have better battery usage electronics. I know that many digital camera batteries last a full ten times longer today than 4 years ago due to electronic changes. I do appreciate the vernier when comparing sizes, but like the digitals when I just want to know a single reading. Watching the needle go back and forth between two sizes does something in my brain that digital reading changes do not. 

ON Thickness differences - feeling and seeing - a Japanese friend adjusts his planes (as are most Japanese planes) by tapping the end of the plane with a hammer and eyeballing it. Below is the wood shaving result of his tapping and eyeballing the difference. His comment to me was that it was not a sharp or adjusted as fine as it could be, and he was dead serious.


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## Mudder (Jun 21, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Randy__
> <br />
> We are talking about detecting a discrete "STEP" in diameter between pen hardware and wood.....the most common interface where this is a problem is at the tip where the pen is held.



O.K.

Now having said that and knowing where the problem is I'm left to wonder why in the world you would leave the edge square so that it could be felt at all? I always use a Inside / Outside chamfer tool that I used in my reloading days to take any sharp edge off. the tiniest little broken edge makes a world of difference. I have yet to cut through my finish and I have NEVER had anyone complain about my fit near the nib.

BTW: Bill B. sells this very tool

http://www.arizonasilhouette.com/Chamfering_Tool.htm





> _Originally posted by Russ Fairfield_
> <br />
> Others will have different abilities and have a difference of opinion as to what is good enough for them, and I have no problem with that.



I'll have to agree with you here. Far be it for me to say that you are wrong. You use what works for you and I use what works for me, and I have no problem with that either.


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## Randy_ (Jun 21, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Mudder_
> <br />.....I'm left to wonder why in the world you would leave the edge square so that it could be felt at all? I always use a Inside / Outside chamfer tool that I used in my reloading days to take any sharp edge off. the tiniest little broken edge makes a world of difference. I have yet to cut through my finish and I have NEVER had anyone complain about my fit near the nib....



Scott: The point is that if the wood is the correct diameter(same as the hardware), there will be "NO" step to feel.  If the turned blank is slightly oversized, then chamfering the edge a little will certainly help the situation.  On the otherhand, if the blank is spot on or a hair undersized, then chamfering the blank will make it shy of the hardware and you may feel the metal extending beyond the wood.


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## Mudder (Jun 22, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Randy__
> <br />
> 
> 
> ...



Again you leave me wondering. 

Why in the world would you assemble a pen if you know the wood is smaller than the fitting? I was taught that you can always take a little more material off but it's real hard to add material. And I disagree with you in one respect. If the blank was "spot on" the tiny chamfer that I put on my blanks would not be noticible. Since I would not assemble a pen where the wood is shy of the fittings I cammot comment on the rest.

You use what works for you and I will use what works for me.


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## opfoto (Jun 22, 2006)

Thanks for all the great info.... 

   I will Mic <u><b>BOTH</b></u> the barrells <u><b>AND</b></u> the pen hardware on all future pens that I turn from now on. This site never ceases to amaze me!!!!


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## alparent (Jun 22, 2006)

I don't use a calliper anymore. I use something like this :



<br />

Don't need to bother with numbers.

I adjust it to the actual hardware I'm going to use and I'm always on the dot!


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## Dario (Jun 22, 2006)

> _Originally posted by leehljp_
> <br />Thanks Randy, on the comments on the vernier VS digital readouts. I was thinking about this too. I think the better digitals today have better battery usage electronics. I know that many digital camera batteries last a full ten times longer today than 4 years ago due to electronic changes. I do appreciate the vernier when comparing sizes, but like the digitals when I just want to know a single reading. Watching the needle go back and forth between two sizes does something in my brain that digital reading changes do not.
> 
> ON Thickness differences - feeling and seeing - a Japanese friend adjusts his planes (as are most Japanese planes) by tapping the end of the plane with a hammer and eyeballing it. Below is the wood shaving result of his tapping and eyeballing the difference. His comment to me was that it was not a sharp or adjusted as fine as it could be, and he was dead serious.



WOW!!! [:0][:0][:0]


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## wdcav1952 (Jun 22, 2006)

Interesting thread, to say the least.

First off, thank you Dario for putting my on your "list."  I agree with those who add you to that list, and thank them for not suggesting my removal from the list! [8D]

In dental school many years ago, the instructors made sure that we knew every single step for all procedures.  There was method to their madness.  In private practice, short cuts are a necessity to accomplish procedures in a timely manner.  However, if you do not know all the proper steps to a procedure, poor decisions may be made as to which short cuts are proper.

Taking this from the boring subject of dentistry to pen turning, the same principles apply.  We all take some short cuts in production of a pen, but by knowing all the steps, the use of calipers, sanding, finishing and so forth, we can make hopefully intelligent decisions as to time savers.  No one can make a perfect pen, or anything else.  We should concentrate on making the best pen we can, and not get our turning frocks in a wad over 0.001 tolerances.  Do your best work, but remember that pen turning is supposed to be fun.

FWIW,


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## ed4copies (Jun 22, 2006)

> _Originally posted by wdcav1952_
> <br />Interesting thread, to say the least.
> 
> Do your best work, but remember that pen turning is supposed to be fun.
> ...



Another novel concept!!!

Good day on the ol' pen-turning forum.[][][]


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## Daniel (Jun 22, 2006)

I don't think the lathes we typically use are accurate to within 0.001 inch in the first place. sort of like when they came out with HDTV. it didn't do much good unless you had a signal that was much better than the cable that was available then. anyway, my pens are hand made so ultra tolernaces have never come into the picutre for me. thounsandths of an inch is for things like heads for engines and requires far more accurate equipment than I will ever own.


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## Dario (Jun 22, 2006)

> _Originally posted by wdcav1952_
> <br />Interesting thread, to say the least.
> 
> .....
> ...



GREAT RESPONSE!!! [][^]


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## Randy_ (Jun 22, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Mudder_
> <br />...Again you leave me wondering.
> 
> Why in the world would you assemble a pen if you know the wood is smaller than the fitting? I was taught that you can always take a little more material off but it's real hard to add material. And I disagree with you in one respect. If the blank was "spot on" the tiny chamfer that I put on my blanks would not be noticeable. Since I would not assemble a pen where the wood is shy of the fittings I cammot comment on the rest....




Scott:  

Either I am not getting your thinking or you are not getting mine??  Let me try to clarify, one more time.  

Personally, I would never assemble a pen that did not fit properly.  That is why I "mike" the fittings and the wood rather than just turning to the bushing and that is the whole point of this discussion.... to encourage others to measure their blanks rather than just turning them to a bushing which may or may not be of the correct diameter to match the hardware.  This in an effort to help folks who struggle to produce pens that fit well.  

However, many folks(newer ones, mostly) do, in fact, just turn to bushing diameter and assemble their pens.....I guess because they don't know any better.  All you have to do is look at some of the pen pictures submitted here to know that ill fitting pens are not terribly uncommon.     

Once again, the whole point of this discussion..as I understand it..is to get people to realize that bushings and pen hardware vary due to manufacturing tolerances and plain old mistakes and that one way to build a properly fitted pen is to measure the fittings and the wood with a vernier caliper.  If you or anyone else has a different method of achieving the same result, more power to you!!  

What we all are looking for(presumably) is a well fitted pen/pencil and there is no need to "settle" for less.  Using a vernier caliper is one way to achieve this end....just turning to the bushing is not.


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## Randy_ (Jun 22, 2006)

> _Originally posted by wdcav1952_
> <br />.....No one can make a perfect pen, or anything else.  We should concentrate on making the best pen we can, and not get our turning frocks in a wad over 0.001 tolerances.  Do your best work, but remember that pen turning is supposed to be fun....



No one is trying to make a perfect pen here; but a few of us are trying to help folks(who want to) make "better" pens!  And from the responses here many of them are appreciative of the suggestions and help.  We are not worrying about a thousandth, William; but rather about variances of more than 0.003" which is well within the ability of almost everyone on this board to achieve.  

Personally, I turn pens for fun; but it is not fun if a pen comes off the lathe and I can feel a nasty bump at the wood metal interface so I started measuring with a vernier caliper and the bumps went away and the fun returned.


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## Randy_ (Jun 22, 2006)

> _Originally posted by leehljp_
> <br />.....ON Thickness differences - feeling and seeing - a Japanese friend adjusts his planes (as are most Japanese planes) by tapping the end of the plane with a hammer and eyeballing it. Below is the wood shaving result of his tapping and eyeballing the difference. His comment to me was that it was not a sharp or adjusted as fine as it could be, and he was dead serious....



Hank:  I'm not a flat worker; but can appreciate fine work when I see it!!  Have you ever put a micrometer to one of those shavings?  Sure would be an interesting result!!


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## Randy_ (Jun 22, 2006)

> _Originally posted by alparent_
> <br />I don't use a calliper anymore. I use something like this



Alain:  Don't know what you guys call them in Canada; but here we call them calipers??[][]


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## Randy_ (Jun 22, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Daniel_<br />.....anyway, my pens are hand made so ultra tolernaces have never come into the picutre for me. thounsandths of an inch is for things like heads for engines and requires far more accurate equipment than I will ever own.



Daniel:  I bet that if you got out a mike, you would find your work is to closer tolerances than you think it is!!


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## DocStram (Jun 22, 2006)

Russ ... thanks for starting this topic. As a rookie, I'm learning a whole lot.
It would really help me, and I suspect other new penturners, if somebody laid out a tutorial showing the steps they follow for measuring the kit and the blank. Reading about it is one thing, it helps me if I can see it in pictures. 
That said, it would also be really valuable if someone could take the time to show how they make their own bushings. 
Both of these endeavors would be a very worthy contribution to the IAP files.
Thanks to our IAP "pros" for being so generous in sharing your vast knowledge!


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## alparent (Jun 22, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Randy__
> <br />
> 
> 
> ...



I guess they are called calipers in Canada also (Mr Smarty Pants [])!?!?

So this is a caliper and the other thing is a dial caliper? right?

I guess this french guy learned something today!

Thanks! You do leane alot on this site!


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## DCBluesman (Jun 22, 2006)

Where's the pickle pen when you need it? [8D]


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## beamer (Jun 22, 2006)

Personally, I'd rather not hear "Hey that pile of dog poo is AMAZING!!! Good Work!" if i post dog poo. The biggest reason I reach out to fellow woodworkers is for support. How will I ever improve on my projects if nobody tells me there's something a little off with them?


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## leehljp (Jun 22, 2006)

It is posts like this bushing talk that spur me on to finer work. I may never achieve it but at least I strive to. Browning: "Ah, but a mans reach should exceed his grasp, or whats a heaven for?" 

I grew up with this approach of striving for that - even which I cannot reach. Today's philosophy and psychology teaches our youngsters to not extend their reach too far so that they will not be disappointed in failures for heights that they cannot attain or reach.

I have spent a year eagerly persuing the experience of pen making and am still in the amatuer stage. But I am learning, that for me, it is better to do one at a time, think it through, mike it, play with it, get it right. A pen (including a slimline) constructed over a weeks time prefectly - yields better confidence for me than a dozen pens in two days in which each have some defect that could have been prevented.

Thanks guys, for your insights and wisdom!


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## DocStram (Jun 22, 2006)

Suggestion for Jeff ...... would you please consider starting an alternative IAP site where only barbed messages can be posted?  Maybe call it something like IAP Flamethrowers?
It seems to happen a lot lately, somebody starts a well intentioned thread loaded with useful information ... and then, all of a sudden, things get side-tracked with sarcastic remarks.
Or, how about this suggestion ..... we all agree that when a flame is posted .... the targeted member simply responds by typing the words "Turn the other cheek".  
Maybe we can back up to the last post I made and start over:

 Russ ... thanks for starting this topic. As a rookie, I'm learning a whole lot.
It would really help me, and I suspect other new penturners, if somebody laid out a tutorial showing the steps they follow for measuring the kit and the blank. Reading about it is one thing, it helps me if I can see it in pictures.
That said, it would also be really valuable if someone could take the time to show how they make their own bushings.
Both of these endeavors would be a very worthy contribution to the IAP files.
Thanks to our IAP "pros" for being so generous in sharing your vast knowledge!
Al
Middle Georgia


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## wdcav1952 (Jun 23, 2006)

At the time copied and pasted below, I posted what I intended as a thoughtful response to this thread.

"Posted - Jun 22 2006 :  11:49:01 AM US Eastern Time"

Unfortunately it was misinterpreted and taken as an attack.  It was not intended as such.  I was rather surprised and felt attacked by the response the post received.  Regretably, I responded in kind.  After reading Al's thoughtful post I decided to delete my ill-advised posts.

I would like to apologize to Russ if I took his thoughtful post on the subject of bushings astray.  I hope Russ knows that I consider his thoughts as some of the best wisdom posted on this and any other sites.  For those of you who have not done so, please take the time to read and study Russ's site.  You will learn far more there than you can imagine.

Thank you Al for steering me in the right direction.  Consider my other cheek turned.


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## Mudder (Jun 23, 2006)

> _Originally posted by wdcav1952_
> <br />Thank you Al for steering me in the right direction.  Consider my other cheek turned.



[}][}] 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 [][]


[]


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## angboy (Jun 23, 2006)

> _Originally posted by leehljp_
> <br />
> 
> ON Thickness differences - feeling and seeing - a Japanese friend adjusts his planes (as are most Japanese planes) by tapping the end of the plane with a hammer and eyeballing it. Below is the wood shaving result of his tapping and eyeballing the difference. His comment to me was that it was not a sharp or adjusted as fine as it could be, and he was dead serious.



Hank (or anyone) can you explain exactly what this picture is of? It seems to have been impressive to people, and I'm just not understanding what exactly it means or shows?


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## Dario (Jun 23, 2006)

Angela,

Notice the 2 white/translucent ribbons on top of the book???

These are shavings...can you imagine how sharp the plane blade has to attain this?  Also how finetuned the plane?  I personally never seen anything even remotely close to this.


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## angboy (Jun 23, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Dario_
> <br />Angela,
> 
> Notice the 2 white/translucent ribbons on top of the book???
> ...



Thanks Dario- now I understand what I was seeing!


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## wood-of-1kind (Jun 23, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Dario_
> These are shavings...can you imagine how sharp the plane blade has to attain this?  Also how finetuned the plane?  I personally never seen anything even remotely close to this.



And here I am thinking that you were showing us just some onion skins.[)]

-Peter-


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## ctEaglesc (Sep 22, 2006)

IF you have enough CA on your fingers all the joints a "flush"


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## TBone (Sep 22, 2006)

Thanks guys.  This newbie learned quite a few things in this thread.  I will pull out my digital calipers and start measuring the kits.  Also learned someone knows a lot more about tuning and sharpening a plane iron than I....WOW[:0]...and he was saying it should have been better????


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## GreggR (Sep 23, 2006)

I wish I could keep my mouth shut.... but Russ you are 100% right. My life as a machinist and ME have driven me freaking crazy in pen turning land. Not a single bushing, band, or fitting is repeatable. I noted the one post about machinist's having to work at 3 thousandths. Heck, a good machinist works in tenths of a thousandth. The new NC screw machines and CNC lathes hold tenths all day, so no, the quality isn't there. So yup, dial or digital calipers. And even then I keep the pen kit parts together with the turned blanks so when I assemble they are all a matched set. .334, .342, .349 geesh. Taiwan needs CNC equipment or training really bad.... [] 

Gregg


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## Marc Phillips (Sep 23, 2006)

I gotta tell ya...

I learn more stuff here!!

The first time I made a pen without having the bushing for guide was the Walmart pen!

I just used my eyeball []

... yea, yea, I know... it showed [xx(]

Great stuff... keep it coming! ... and thanks [8D]


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