# Classifieds Overhaul



## jeff

Greetings,

For the last 6 months, the management team has been working hard on a complete overhaul of the Buy, Sell, & Swap section of the forum. Before that, Curtis and I had been working on various concepts for almost two years. Later today you'll get to see the new structure and rules, ask questions, and provide your feedback. Buy, Sell, and Swap will close to new ads on Sept 28, and the new "IAP Department of Commerce" (DOC) will open on Oct 1.

Our existing classifieds section has been operating essentially unchanged since 2004. While it has served the purpose of draining our wallets and filling out shops with the tools, kits, and supplies we can't live without, that section of our site has not been without problems. If you've been around the site for a few years, you're probably well aware of some of the issues and annoyances.

The main goals of the new DOC are to confine advertising and marketing to a single section of the forum, streamline the process of buying and selling, and encourage sellers to make more judicious and efficient use of the resource we're providing. 

One change that you will immediately notice is that there is a cost associated with using two of the new forums; Classifieds, and Premium Classifieds. One of the reasons for the clutter in the existing classifieds is that there is no incentive for sellers to make careful use of the service we're providing. The cost is extremely small relative to the revenue most sales generate, and the income will help make the IAP a stronger organization and allow us to undertake some exciting new projects.

Some of the new rules apply to how vendors can discuss their products outside the DOC. You would not believe the number of reported posts we get which say "hey, that's advertising!" I'm sure you've seen threads in SOYP or elsewhere that turned into blatant advertising and clearly belonged in the classifieds. The new "Market Research" and "Vendor Cheers & Jeers" forums will help us corral threads which show up in the general forums but which do have some element of advertising.

For those wishing to trade and give stuff away, or sell the extra bits of stuff laying around the shop, we still have free forums for those purposes. 

Look for the new DOC section in the forum list shortly, read the rules (in the "Rules" forum of DOC) and feel free to comment or ask questions in this thread or via PM to me.


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## Monolith

$10 to post a "for sale" thread?  This seems ridiculous... especially when theres no benefit over the old system.

Edit: Especially when theres no automated system for purchasing a new thread.  All you're doing is adding work for the moderators when you said yourself that the mods already had their hands full trying to regulate the old classifieds.

Sorry, but nothing about this system seems well planned or beneficial.


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## jeff

Monolith said:


> $10 to post a "for sale" thread?  This seems ridiculous... especially when theres no benefit over the old system.



Sorry you feel that way.  

1 - It's an extremely reasonable cost based on the revenue which is typically generated from sales with a large number of photos and bumps. 

2 - There is substantial cost to running this site, and donations don't provide the revenue we need to sustain ourselves and undertake new programs.

3 - The Classifieds forum cost is $5.


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## jeff

Monolith said:


> $10 to post a "for sale" thread?  This seems ridiculous... especially when theres no benefit over the old system.
> 
> Edit: Especially when theres no automated system for purchasing a new thread.  All you're doing is adding work for the moderators when you said yourself that the mods already had their hands full trying to regulate the old classifieds.
> 
> Sorry, but nothing about this system seems well planned or beneficial.


Did you read the how to purchase a thread post? How much more automated could it be?

The mod team was an integral part of the development of the DOC. The new rules were in many cases tailored specifically to address the needs of the moderators to be able to do a more effective job with less work.

I do appreciate your comments.


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## Monolith

Sorry, I didn't see the thread detailing how to purchase threads.

Still, it seems like an overly convoluted system.  How much does it cost to host IAP, anyway?


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## soligen

For the classifieds, I think you should always allow the OP to post Thread Closure notice, even if they have used up the 1 per week follow up post. This allows them to notify everyone that it is closed as soon as the item is sold, instead of having to wait for a Moderator.


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## Timebandit

Monolith said:


> Sorry, I didn't see the thread detailing how to purchase threads.
> 
> Still, it seems like an overly convoluted system.  How much does it cost to host IAP, anyway?



Hmm... Do you question your boss when he makes a new rule at work...Jeff is the Boss and has worked with all of the Moderators, which is who has to deal with all that goes on around here, to come up with what they think is right for this site. I respect that.:wink:


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## alphageek

soligen said:


> For the classifieds, I think you should always allow the OP to post Thread Closure notice, even if they have used up the 1 per week follow up post. This allows them to notify everyone that it is closed as soon as the item is sold, instead of having to wait for a Moderator.



Dennis,

Although that was not called out, I am sure that the mods wouldn't act upon a "Closed" post other than closing the thread.   You are right that a closed post at the same time as reporting it closed is a good idea in case the mods take time to get to closing the post.

Dean
Asst Moderator


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## soligen

alphageek said:


> soligen said:
> 
> 
> 
> For the classifieds, I think you should always allow the OP to post Thread Closure notice, even if they have used up the 1 per week follow up post. This allows them to notify everyone that it is closed as soon as the item is sold, instead of having to wait for a Moderator.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dennis,
> 
> Although that was not called out, I am sure that the mods wouldn't act upon a "Closed" post other than closing the thread. You are right that a closed post at the same time as reporting it closed is a good idea in case the mods take time to get to closing the post.
> 
> Dean
> Asst Moderator
Click to expand...

 
I would think so too, but the rules are VERY specific, so I am suggesting that you call it out in the rules.


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## alphageek

soligen said:


> I would think so too, but the rules are VERY specific, so I am suggesting that you call it out in the rules.



I'm sure Jeff will take advisement of that.   Just giving you a moderators view too.


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## knowltoh

To say the cost is "ridiculous" and nothing seems "well planned" IS ridiculous.


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## OKLAHOMAN

Am I to take it that as long as the ads or different( IE: not advertising the same product) that in the classified we can run more than one ad simultaneously?


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## DurocShark

Reading through some of the info over there, it feels really restrictive. I don't sell much here so take my comment with a grain of salt. Perhaps the rules are necessary...

Time limits, photo limits, and reply limits. And that's after paying for it? Sorry, I'm skeptical.


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## maxwell_smart007

DurocShark said:


> Reading through some of the info over there, it feels really restrictive. I don't sell much here so take my comment with a grain of salt. Perhaps the rules are necessary...
> 
> Time limits, photo limits, and reply limits. And that's after paying for it? Sorry, I'm skeptical.



Don, the rules are no more restrictive than the AUP (acceptable use policy) or TOS (Terms of Service) for the entire IAP site.

I doubt that many people read the AUP or TOS, however, until it's pointed out that they've violated a rule!


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## DurocShark

maxwell_smart007 said:


> DurocShark said:
> 
> 
> 
> Reading through some of the info over there, it feels really restrictive. I don't sell much here so take my comment with a grain of salt. Perhaps the rules are necessary...
> 
> Time limits, photo limits, and reply limits. And that's after paying for it? Sorry, I'm skeptical.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don, the rules are no more restrictive than the AUP (acceptable use policy) or TOS (Terms of Service) for the entire IAP site.
> 
> I doubt that many people read the AUP or TOS, however, until it's pointed out that they've violated a rule!
Click to expand...


Except I don't have to pay $5 per post in the rest of the site. Or am limited to X posts per month. 

Like I said, I don't sell often, and my stuff would be in Deals & Steals, but if I did, I would find this new structure really restrictive.

OTOH, this is a good sized market here. So perhaps the need exists to tighten it down.


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## jeff

OKLAHOMAN said:


> Am I to take it that as long as the ads or different( IE: not advertising the same product) that in the classified we can run more than one ad simultaneously?



No that's not the intent.

You can have one ad running in Classifieds at a time.

You can have two ads running simultaneously in Premium Classifieds.

The limits are per-forum, so you could have one running in Classifieds along with two running in Premium Classifieds.


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## jeff

soligen said:


> For the classifieds, I think you should always allow the OP to post Thread Closure notice, even if they have used up the 1 per week follow up post. This allows them to notify everyone that it is closed as soon as the item is sold, instead of having to wait for a Moderator.



We'll add some words to that effect. Thanks for the suggestion.


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## jeff

DurocShark said:


> maxwell_smart007 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DurocShark said:
> 
> 
> 
> Reading through some of the info over there, it feels really restrictive. I don't sell much here so take my comment with a grain of salt. Perhaps the rules are necessary...
> 
> Time limits, photo limits, and reply limits. And that's after paying for it? Sorry, I'm skeptical.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don, the rules are no more restrictive than the AUP (acceptable use policy) or TOS (Terms of Service) for the entire IAP site.
> 
> I doubt that many people read the AUP or TOS, however, until it's pointed out that they've violated a rule!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Except I don't have to pay $5 per post in the rest of the site. Or am limited to X posts per month.
> 
> Like I said, I don't sell often, and my stuff would be in Deals & Steals, but if I did, I would find this new structure really restrictive.
> 
> OTOH, this is a good sized market here. So perhaps the need exists to tighten it down.
Click to expand...


I understand that it may look a little restrictive, but about 80% of it is not new. It's either in the TOS, AUP, or scattered around in various rules posts in different forums. 

If you can point out what's unreasonably restrictive, we'll certainly discuss it and make changes which improve it.


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## OKLAHOMAN

Are you going to have all payments made through Pay pal and is there in place a way to pay a set amount up front (lets say $200) that would cover ads for a period of time in the classified or the preimium classified ?


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## jeff

OKLAHOMAN said:


> Are you going to have all payments made through Pay pal and is there in place a way to pay a set amount up front (lets say $200) that would cover ads for a period of time in the classified or the preimium classified ?


Yes, it'll all be done via PayPal. You can see screenshots of the process here.

Payments aren't "time based" now, although that was considered. It's a per-thread purchase. A different way to do this would be to charge for "subscriptions" to the Classified or Premium Classified forum which would then allow the starting of threads for a certain number of days, weeks, etc. That would of course require that we limit the number of threads per unit time for people who use the subscription method.

At this time, we're sticking to one thread credit per purchase. The only reason is that the plug-in we use for this does not have a means for members to see their credit balance. As soon as I can code something up for that, multiple credits will be available. That'll be far more cost-efficient for us from a PayPal fee standpoint than individual $5 and $10 transactions.

If there is interest in the "subscription" method, we can consider implementing that as well. So the frequent users could buy a subscription, and the occasional users could do it by purchasing threads. If any of you who are or plan to be heavy users of the classifieds would be interested in the subscription method of payment, please PM me.


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## mredburn

If your not putting the classified on the front page and the objective is to help raise funds to offset costs, why limit the amount of ads in the places they are intended to be?


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## Buzzzz4

How will a buyer know what is available in a regular classifieds post if the buyers aren't allowed to claim items in the post and the seller is so limited in their postings? For a small seller like me this pretty much shuts me down.


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## nativewooder

I haven't read the new stuff, just looking through here, but I think it's sad that you've decided to only use PayPal, since I've decided not to ever use PayPay again due to problems getting money from them in a timely manner.


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## DurocShark

jeff said:


> DurocShark said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> maxwell_smart007 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DurocShark said:
> 
> 
> 
> Reading through some of the info over there, it feels really restrictive. I don't sell much here so take my comment with a grain of salt. Perhaps the rules are necessary...
> 
> Time limits, photo limits, and reply limits. And that's after paying for it? Sorry, I'm skeptical.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don, the rules are no more restrictive than the AUP (acceptable use policy) or TOS (Terms of Service) for the entire IAP site.
> 
> I doubt that many people read the AUP or TOS, however, until it's pointed out that they've violated a rule!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Except I don't have to pay $5 per post in the rest of the site. Or am limited to X posts per month.
> 
> Like I said, I don't sell often, and my stuff would be in Deals & Steals, but if I did, I would find this new structure really restrictive.
> 
> OTOH, this is a good sized market here. So perhaps the need exists to tighten it down.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I understand that it may look a little restrictive, but about 80% of it is not new. It's either in the TOS, AUP, or scattered around in various rules posts in different forums.
> 
> If you can point out what's unreasonably restrictive, we'll certainly discuss it and make changes which improve it.
Click to expand...



I thought I did... "Time limits, photo limits, and reply limits. And that's after paying for it?"

I doubt one post per month or no replying are part of the TOS for the rest of the site. Otherwise my rambling would have had me banned long ago... :wink:

I'd have less of a problem with the restrictions if there was no fee. Or have the fee free up most of the restrictions. But paying to be more restricted just doesn't feel right.


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## jeff

Buzzzz4 said:


> How will a buyer know what it available in a regular classifieds post if the buyers aren't allowed to claim items in the post and the seller is so limited in their postings? For a small seller like me this pretty much shuts me down.



Claiming posts bump the thread. That pushes the thread to the top of the forum listing. Exposure is value in selling, hence the higher cost of the forum in which claiming posts are allowed.

We hashed this over for months while developing the new forums. Looking at some of your previous ads, the $10 cost would be less than 10%. You could sell a lot more per ad and that percentage would go way down.

We looked at some average sales to set the cost. There are some sellers making >$1000 from a post selling blanks. $10 seemed reasonable.


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## jeff

nativewooder said:


> I haven't read the new stuff, just looking through here, but I think it's sad that you've decided to only use PayPal, since I've decided not to ever use PayPay again due to problems getting money from them in a timely manner.



There are a couple additional options open to us. What system do you use?

I have found the PayPal debit card to be very convenient for making withdrawals. The 3-4 day EFT delay is annoying.


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## jeff

mredburn said:


> If your not putting the classified on the front page and the objective is to help raise funds to offset costs, why limit the amount of ads in the places they are intended to be?



We were trying to strike a balance between cleaning up the classifieds and generating revenue for the site. A major complaint had been seeing 3-4 ad threads from the same person at the top of the forum.

Sure, we could generate additional revenue by not limiting the number of simultaneous ads. We not trying to generate as much money as possible, just a reasonable and fair amount for the exposure we provide.

Not sure I completely understood your question! :biggrin:


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## Haynie

I am a would be buyer.  It would be extremely beneficial and much appreciated if the sellers were allowed to edit pictures to show which blanks are sold.  I personally have not bought blanks from here due to the fact that it is too much work for me, the buyer, to filter through the pages to see what is left.  I am not a quantity buyer, nor is this a business for me.  As a hobbyist it is not worth it to create a spread sheet to figure out what is still available.  In the new system, the way I read it, the seller is not allowed to edit or alter their pictures and therefore there is nothing stream lined about this process.

Then again maybe I read it wrong.

Just my 2 cents.


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## nativewooder

OK, now I've read all the rules and I think there are major improvements in the system.  That doesn't mean you have to like them, or that vendors will not grumble about the cost, but if life didn't have problems, we wouldn't remember 9/11!


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## Toni

I give up!!! Where are the rules post?


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## jeff

Haynie said:


> I am a would be buyer.  It would be extremely beneficial and much appreciated if the sellers were allowed to edit pictures to show which blanks are sold.  I personally have not bought blanks from here due to the fact that it is too much work for me, the buyer, to filter through the pages to see what is left.  I am not a quantity buyer, nor is this a business for me.  As a hobbyist it is not worth it to create a spread sheet to figure out what is still available.  In the new system, the way I read it, the seller is not allowed to edit or alter their pictures and therefore there is nothing stream lined about this process.
> 
> Then again maybe I read it wrong.
> 
> Just my 2 cents.



Buyers can edit their original post to add words under each photo listing the available blanks. I see that all the time. Like this.

The idea behind not editing photos is to preserve a record of what was being sold. I suppose we could allow the editing of photos to add an "X" over blanks which are sold. Would that help you?


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## DurocShark

Toni said:


> I give up!!! Where are the rules post?


http://www.penturners.org/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=161


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## jeff

Toni said:


> I give up!!! Where are the rules post?



http://www.penturners.org/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=161


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## DurocShark

<insert giggle emoticon here>


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## Longfellow

From first reading of the new rules and restrictions, I am sure my days of posting on the classifeds will be over. I can't justify paying $5.00 for an item I sell for $7.50 and then have to pay a Paypal fee on top. Might as well burn the wood. I guess I'll stick with their rates.


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## jeff

Longfellow said:


> From first reading of the new rules and restrictions, I am sure my days of posting on the classifeds will be over. I can't justify paying $5.00 for an item I sell for $7.50 and then have to pay a Paypal fee on top. Might as well burn the wood. I guess I'll stick with their rates.


You post an ad almost every day. One option would be to take 14 of those sets of blanks, put them in one ad, and let it run for the two weeks. Would that be possible?


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## Rob73

Trades and giveaways.  I know this is not aimed at the 'classified ad's' but reading this thread I think it's still relevant. 

   I was looking at the trades and giveaways section. I've found some items after cleaning my shop out (used to be cabinet shop) I was thinking of putting up. Granted most are not specifically related to 'pens' but are items you would find in a wood shop. For example, drawer guides, door hinges and associated hardware.  Not pen turning specific but easily something someone could use that’s building some storage cabinets for their shop. I also have some chrome bottle stoppers I was considering putting up. 

Now at the top of the current ‘Trades And Giveaways’  forum it states:

_Trade or give away for free anything related to *pen turning*. Blanks, tools, parts._   I've also looked at the 'new' section rule set terms as well.

Just taking a quick look at the current trade/giveaways forum you can plainly see users putting up items that have nothing to do with 'pen turning'.  
Quick example : cane blank, a 36 volt dewalt charger (ok maybe you can try and argue this could be 'pen' related) , welding supplies, bottle stopper chuck, hard drives, and a guy looking for a milling machine.
To me this shows that you have been giving some leeway to users that are posting  item(s) that are not necessarily related specifically related towards pen turning.

The vibe I'm getting from this thread is the moderation hammer is about to come down with the new _'*Department Of Commerce*_' section. If this is the case don’t you think that strictly enforcing a only pen related rule set is going to be hindering to the users of this section?


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## soligen

I've been painting a bedroom after reading these rules this morning, so have had plenty of free brain power to ponder this.

These comments are strictly from a BUYERS perspective, and what provides value to me as a consumer.  I've never sold anything on this site, but I have bought things.

1) 

If a post offers mutiple items for sale, but does not allow "claiming posts" then the from a comsumer's perspective this is worthless, and I will not buy from any such posts.  Claiming posts are a service to the buyer so we all don't waste our time in a back and forth trying to figure out what is available.

I will never try to buy anything from a multi item post in the Classified forum.  If the rules stay as is, seller should simply recognize that I am likely not the only one with this attitude and simply avoid this forum. 

2) 

There does not seem to be a provision for simply advertising, then conducting business at the vendors site.  I find particulary valuable posts that items are now "in stock" or that a new item has arrived and where to go to buy it, or a special offer like free shipping or a discount.  No need for any follow up posts - just let the add run for 2 weeks.  I suggest that this is a better use of "classifieds" and suggest the classified forum be converted to this type of usage, allowing 2 bumps in the 2 week run time.

3) 

I also think there is a loss of value to buyers by the complete prohibition on announcing advaced sales offers.  I think this has value to many people, but without this site there is no way for us to convieniently hear about such offers.  I suggest these be allowed in an "anouncement only" manner consistent with number 2 above, with all the business to subsequently be conducted on the vendor's site.


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## jeff

Rob73 said:


> Trades and giveaways.  I know this is not aimed at the 'classified ad's' but reading this thread I think it's still relevant.
> 
> I was looking at the trades and giveaways section. I've found some items after cleaning my shop out (used to be cabinet shop) I was thinking of putting up. Granted most are not specifically related to 'pens' but are items you would find in a wood shop. For example, drawer guides, door hinges and associated hardware.  Not pen turning specific but easily something someone could use that’s building some storage cabinets for their shop. I also have some chrome bottle stoppers I was considering putting up.
> 
> Now at the top of the current ‘Trades And Giveaways’  forum it states:
> 
> _Trade or give away for free anything related to *pen turning*. Blanks, tools, parts._   I've also looked at the 'new' section rule set terms as well.
> 
> Just taking a quick look at the current trade/giveaways forum you can plainly see users putting up items that have nothing to do with 'pen turning'.
> Quick example : cane blank, a 36 volt dewalt charger (ok maybe you can try and argue this could be 'pen' related) , welding supplies, bottle stopper chuck, hard drives, and a guy looking for a milling machine.
> To me this shows that you have been giving some leeway to users that are posting  item(s) that are not necessarily related specifically related towards pen turning.
> 
> The vibe I'm getting from this thread is the moderation hammer is about to come down with the new _'*Department Of Commerce*_' section. If this is the case don’t you think that strictly enforcing a only pen related rule set is going to be hindering to the users of this section?


I don't moderate the Buy, Sell, Swap section so I have not seen those trade items. I don't think it would be objectionable to allow other items. I just don't want to have to write a long list of what's acceptable. We'll consider this.

I don't believe you're expanding this to include any of the for-sale forums, are you? I don't think it's unreasonable to limit for-sale items to pen-related. For years, we've allowed "pen-related" to include small turning stuff as well - stoppers, etc.


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## Rob73

> I don't believe you're expanding this to include any of the for-sale forums, are you? I don't think it's unreasonable to limit for-sale items to pen-related. For years, we've allowed "pen-related" to include small turning stuff as well - stoppers, etc.



No, I was speaking directly to the trade & give away forum.   Non pen related if I wanted to 'sell' I'd just post over at SMC.


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## IPD_Mrs

*Comment & Questions from Cheers/Veers forum:*
*Rules: *

You may not comment on the same vendor more than once per year.
What if you have made a great comment with a vendor based on your first experience with said company and then the next time and the next (until you give up) you are getting LOUSY treatment/products etc.  Don't we as a community want that kind of follow up information?   This will allow the unscrupulous individuals that exist in any community to take advantage of more members than if folks are allowed to post their experiences on a more frequent basis (not weekly, or even monthly perhpas but once a quarter would make some sense).  Alternatively I guess I would be holding my thoughts about any vendor until I have done business with that person several times - which also hurts the community since new members will be put in a position where it will be nearly impossible to build any type of reputation or suppport in a timely fashion.
 

Do not advertise for another vendor in a review about a different vendor.
You may not start a thread or comment in a thread discussing a vendor with which you have any business relationship other than as customer.
What constitutes "any business relationship"?  Does money or product have to exchange hands?  Does it count as a business relationship if you are consulting with a vendor to assist them in a project?  IE someone helping a vendor set up a shopping cart ...  financial planning?  etc.

*You may not start a thread or comment in a thread discussing a vendor if you are legally related to, or cohabitate with, any employee of, officer of, or supplier to that business.*

*S*o if you have a "relationship" with a supplier of a product sold to Vendor A and you see a post on Vendor A about a product that you personally bought from that Vendor that has NOTHING to do with the fact that you are living with or related to a DIFFERENT SUPPLIER to that Vendor you can't say a word in any post?      IE:  Because Pepsi sells products to Shell stations the Wife/girlfriend of a Pepsi truck driver can't make any statement on what great prices on Gas the Shell station has???? 
 
- really think this needs clarified as it appears the beginning of the statement makes the relationship/comment status apply to all (employee, officer or SUPPLIER of any given vendor).  If we are going to remove comments by ANYONE that is related to ANY supplier/employee etc  then I think we need to make that cross the board with all vendors - however not all relationships are always known so how do we Honestly Moderate this?   
 
 
Thanks for clarifications.  
Linda


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## jeff

Comments in color...



soligen said:


> I've been painting a bedroom after reading these rules this morning, so have had plenty of free brain power to ponder this.
> 
> These comments are strictly from a BUYERS perspective, and what provides value to me as a consumer.  I've never sold anything on this site, but I have bought things.
> 
> 1)
> 
> If a post offers mutiple items for sale, but does not allow "claiming posts" then the from a comsumer's perspective this is worthless, and I will not buy from any such posts.  Claiming posts are a service to the buyer so we all don't waste our time in a back and forth trying to figure out what is available.
> 
> I agree. If sellers wish to offer the convenience of claiming posts, they should use the Premium Classifieds forum.
> 
> I will never try to buy anything from a multi item post in the Classified forum.  If the rules stay as is, seller should simply recognize that I am likely not the only one with this attitude and simply avoid this forum.
> 
> 2)
> 
> There does not seem to be a provision for simply advertising, then conducting business at the vendors site.  I find particulary valuable posts that items are now "in stock" or that a new item has arrived and where to go to buy it, or a special offer like free shipping or a discount.  No need for any follow up posts - just let the add run for 2 weeks.  I suggest that this is a better use of "classifieds" and suggest the classified forum be converted to this type of usage, allowing 2 bumps in the 2 week run time.
> 
> I don't see why it could not be used as such with the rules as-is. There is no requirement for bumping. A seller could place an ad and just let it go. "Now in stock" posts put money in a seller's pocket, so it seems reasonable that they'd appreciate a way to invest a small amount of money and get that word out.
> 
> 3)
> 
> I also think there is a loss of value to buyers by the complete prohibition on announcing advaced sales offers.  I think this has value to many people, but without this site there is no way for us to convieniently hear about such offers.  I suggest these be allowed in an "anouncement only" manner consistent with number 2 above, with all the business to subsequently be conducted on the vendor's site.
> 
> I don't see why we could not allow "announcement" posts in Classifieds. That would require a small wording change.


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## RyanNJ

The way i see this is that the small turner, college student like me doing this for fun is going to lose out. I will lose the ability to sell items that i dont need and along the same lines i will not be able to post when i run out of something and need to get just one with out paying shipping from a supplier when someone on the site may have an extra they havent touched in a year. I really feel like this is going to raise the price of blanks when someone pays to post them for sale. Ultimately the reason i came to this site is not only because of the vast knowledge from everyone but also because of the classifieds section where i could easily post things for sale, i see this forcing me to look else where for my products which hurts us all. Also items in lots must sell in lots not individually that is the part that hurts me because most of my purchases were individual items

I am doing this as a hobby the very few pens i actually sell go right back into materials and the changes that have occurred will hurt me. Some people here may have deep enough pockets to participate like this but i make my contribution to the site every bash, im sure its no where near what some people send it but it is what i can afford.

I really dont know what else to say except i am deeply saddened by the decision to change to this format, i would be more willing to pay a fee to use the site as a whole for the year than to pay per post to use one section.


----------



## NewLondon88

I see a lot of issues going away. But (like with any other new venture) I see
some bugs to be worked out. I see some of them are being brought up.
Hope you're wearing asbestos undies.. :tongue:


----------



## jeff

IPD_Mrs said:


> *Comment & Questions from Cheers/Veers forum:*
> *Rules: *
> 
> You may not comment on the same vendor more than once per year.
> What if you have made a great comment with a vendor based on your first experience with said company and then the next time and the next (until you give up) you are getting LOUSY treatment/products etc.  Don't we as a community want that kind of follow up information?   This will allow the unscrupulous individuals that exist in any community to take advantage of more members than if folks are allowed to post their experiences on a more frequent basis (not weekly, or even monthly perhpas but once a quarter would make some sense).  Alternatively I guess I would be holding my thoughts about any vendor until I have done business with that person several times - which also hurts the community since new members will be put in a position where it will be nearly impossible to build any type of reputation or suppport in a timely fashion.
> 
> 
> Do not advertise for another vendor in a review about a different vendor.
> You may not start a thread or comment in a thread discussing a vendor with which you have any business relationship other than as customer.
> What constitutes "any business relationship"?  Does money or product have to exchange hands?  Does it count as a business relationship if you are consulting with a vendor to assist them in a project?  IE someone helping a vendor set up a shopping cart ...  financial planning?  etc.
> 
> *You may not start a thread or comment in a thread discussing a vendor if you are legally related to, or cohabitate with, any employee of, officer of, or supplier to that business.*
> 
> *S*o if you have a "relationship" with a supplier of a product sold to Vendor A and you see a post on Vendor A about a product that you personally bought from that Vendor that has NOTHING to do with the fact that you are living with or related to a DIFFERENT SUPPLIER to that Vendor you can't say a word in any post?      IE:  Because Pepsi sells products to Shell stations the Wife/girlfriend of a Pepsi truck driver can't make any statement on what great prices on Gas the Shell station has????
> 
> - really think this needs clarified as it appears the beginning of the statement makes the relationship/comment status apply to all (employee, officer or SUPPLIER of any given vendor).  If we are going to remove comments by ANYONE that is related to ANY supplier/employee etc  then I think we need to make that cross the board with all vendors - however not all relationships are always known so how do we Honestly Moderate this?
> 
> 
> Thanks for clarifications.
> Linda



I'd consider changing that to quarterly.

"Business Relationship" means an exchange of things of value with or without a contract. 

You made my point with the Shell/Pepsi analogy. Girlfriend mentions the great prices at the Shell station, Shell station gets more customers, Shell station sells proportionately more Pepsi, boyfriend gets overtime to deliver more Pepsi, girlfriend gets nicer jewelry for her birthday.

That's a stretch of course, but I think you see my point. 

Here's a clearer example. Let's say the wife of a supplier of Widget A to IPD is a member. She bought Widget B from IPD and comments positively about her experience with IPD. That drives more people to IPD, and then they see you featuring Widget A on your site. You'll sell more of those because the wife of the supplier has driven traffic to your site. 

I think you understand what I'm trying to prevent here. What change would you propose?

99% of the members have no relationship to any vendors other than as customers. It's their cheers and jeers we want.


----------



## Haynie

jeff said:


> Haynie said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am a would be buyer.  It would be extremely beneficial and much appreciated if the sellers were allowed to edit pictures to show which blanks are sold.  I personally have not bought blanks from here due to the fact that it is too much work for me, the buyer, to filter through the pages to see what is left.  I am not a quantity buyer, nor is this a business for me.  As a hobbyist it is not worth it to create a spread sheet to figure out what is still available.  In the new system, the way I read it, the seller is not allowed to edit or alter their pictures and therefore there is nothing stream lined about this process.
> 
> Then again maybe I read it wrong.
> 
> Just my 2 cents.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Buyers can edit their original post to add words under each photo listing the available blanks. I see that all the time. Like this.
> 
> The idea behind not editing photos is to preserve a record of what was being sold. I suppose we could allow the editing of photos to add an "X" over blanks which are sold. Would that help you?
Click to expand...


The X would be very helpful.


----------



## jeff

RyanNJ said:


> The way i see this is that the small turner, college student like me doing this for fun is going to lose out. I will lose the ability to sell items that i dont need and along the same lines i will not be able to post when i run out of something and need to get just one with out paying shipping from a supplier when someone on the site may have an extra they havent touched in a year. I really feel like this is going to raise the price of blanks when someone pays to post them for sale. Ultimately the reason i came to this site is not only because of the vast knowledge from everyone but also because of the classifieds section where i could easily post things for sale, i see this forcing me to look else where for my products which hurts us all. Also items in lots must sell in lots not individually that is the part that hurts me because most of my purchases were individual items
> 
> I am doing this as a hobby the very few pens i actually sell go right back into materials and the changes that have occurred will hurt me. Some people here may have deep enough pockets to participate like this but i make my contribution to the site every bash, im sure its no where near what some people send it but it is what i can afford.
> 
> I really dont know what else to say except i am deeply saddened by the decision to change to this format, i would be more willing to pay a fee to use the site as a whole for the year than to pay per post to use one section.



You can sell items you don't need in Steals & Deals for free.

You can certainly post in Casual Conversation to ask if anyone can spare a widget you need. 

If you have time, look in the classifieds for a week or so and tally up the value of the blanks sold. I think you might agree after that that $10 is a pretty reasonable cost.

Ryan, we're never going to charge a membership fee. Donations alone don't provide sufficient revenue to do the things that will keep this an exciting and growing place. There are many tens of thousands of dollars of commerce occurring for free in our classifieds and that has been going on since 2004. These changes are modest and reasonable, and I believe will be well-accepted once we get used to them. 

If it "destroys the IAP" or "drives everyone away" as has been predicted to me via PM this morning :biggrin: we'll certainly make some changes. 

With all due respect, I think your perspective may be a bit skewed given that you're on a college student's budget. I clearly remember my days as a college student scraping to pay tuition, rent, and have a little bit left over for fun, so I sympathize with you 100%


----------



## jeff

NewLondon88 said:


> I see a lot of issues going away. But (like with any other new venture) I see
> some bugs to be worked out. I see some of them are being brought up.
> Hope you're wearing asbestos undies.. :tongue:



My asbestos shorts burst into flames about 10am :biggrin:

Thanks for the kind words.


----------



## Constant Laubscher

I am very glad for the changes, Well done I will be happy to pay my $10 per posting.
The IAP has been good to me. Keep up the good work!


----------



## Smitty37

*Buyiing Service*

I have essentially been running a buying service for some high end components no longer sold by any other US Based Supplier.  As I read the rules I will not be able to offer that service any longer.  Am I reading correctly?

That doesn't hurt me because I don't make enough profit on them to dent my bottom line but I do think it is to the detriment of the membership that I apparantly won't be be able to continue these offers.


----------



## ed4copies

jeff said:


> NewLondon88 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I see a lot of issues going away. But (like with any other new venture) I see
> some bugs to be worked out. I see some of them are being brought up.
> Hope you're wearing asbestos undies.. :tongue:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My asbestos shorts burst into flames about 10am :biggrin:
> 
> Thanks for the kind words.
Click to expand...


:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:Now known as Jeff "hot pants" Brown???:biggrin::biggrin:


----------



## EricJS

Jeff, Would it be difficult to format the site so that "contributors" can post for free (or lower cost, say $1-$2) The "contributors" would be members who contribute a minimum amount yearly. Other forums have adopted this.

I understand the need for changes and fully support you. This site has one of the best markets I've seen on any forum, for both sellers and consumers. I'd like to see us maintain the diversity and volume of that crowd.

You perform a wonderful service to us by hosting this site. Thank you for listening to our complaints and requests.


----------



## mredburn

I believe my point was your not letting those vendors that are willing to pay you to place ads, enough opertunity to do so.  Im not saying you have to let a vendor buy the entire classified section but I believe your limits are to low.  I dont have a problem with your price schedule, its just  the cost of doing business. Every one will have to adjust the way they do business to accomadate the fees. I know of at least one seller that when I last checked had no post that was not a for sale post. THis member just used Iap as a free place to sell.


----------



## jeff

Smitty37 said:


> I have essentially been running a buying service for some high end components no longer sold by any other US Based Supplier.  As I read the rules I will not be able to offer that service any longer.  Am I reading correctly?
> 
> That doesn't hurt me because I don't make enough profit on them to dent my bottom line but I do think it is to the detriment of the membership that I apparantly won't be be able to continue these offers.



I don't know how else to draw the line other than at profit. We discussed this, and your buys specifically, for quite some time trying to see how they could be accommodated. 

I don't know what you consider a "dent". What we were trying to avoid was the situation where someone was using member's money instead of their own to make a significant profit. 

The only way I could see to accommodate this would be to remove the "on hand or committed to buy" provision. That opens things up to those who want to risk member funds rather than their own while making a profit on the goods and the float.

I'd be very open to hear your specific suggestions on how to accommodate this while protecting members from profiteers who prefer to risk other people's money.


----------



## Haynie

Ultimately this site does does NOT belong to the community.  It belongs to the person or people who pay the bills.  It really is that simple.  The rest of us come in and play in their sand box.  Since it is their sand box we play by their rules or go to another sand box.  We may not like their brand new "no metal tonka trucks in the sand box" rule but we have to live with it.  We have to trust that while this no metal truck rule is new, there is a reason for it.

I for one have been very shocked at the free wheeling classifieds sections with nothing being given to the site.  Some sites I have been on ask for a percentage of each sale.  Others don't allow classifieds at all. others have a paying members only classifieds section.  Different rules for different sand boxes.  Judging by the amount of money being made from the classifieds section I would think posters should be more than happy to kick some of the proceeds back to the site that has allowed them to make money or advertise their wares free of charge.  Assuming everyone who says they will buy does, there is a HUGE amount of money being moved around and people have this site to thank for that.  Heck, many threads outside the classifieds are thinly veiled adverts.

_________________________________________________________

To the mods and overlords :biggrin:
Everyone likes making money. Nobody likes giving any of that money up.  Your rules are not going to ruin the site.  As for those who are "driven away"...well...I guess they were here for the freebies. Someone else will take their place.  There will be growing pains.  I appreciate this thread being opened to discussion.  I think it shows an open mind and willingness to compromise.

I was just informed that I need to go back to working on taxes (Speaking of not liking to give up money).  Just because I sleep with the boss does not mean I get to do whatever I want.


----------



## zig613

Hi Jeff…

I have read all the comments posted in this thread and it did make for some interesting reading.   A lot of different views and a wide range of advice is being provided.    But, what I didn’t see enough were THANK YOUs to you and the rest of the moderators for VOLUNTEERING your time and likely some money from your own pocket in keeping the IAP doors open.

Many thanks and keep up the good work!

Wade


----------



## Buzzzz4

Thank you for a good perspective, Haynie. You are right. Most places would also just make the change, say "deal with it" and not allow for any discussion. We can't all agree and it beats feebay. Thanks all for making this a great place to discuss and learn more about our obsession.


----------



## qalien

To help me understand (and probably 90% of the other members) maybe you can tell us how much it actually costs in dollars per year to run this site.  Then tell us how much is brought in per year to help pay for this site.  Then for example, let's say it costs $500 a year to run, and fund raising brings in $1000 a year...where does that additional $500 go?  I admit that I have never donated anything to help pay for the costs, but I have never seen a running total as to what is actually needed.  I know that other sites such as this one that I have been on have had a single post, only able to be edited by the website "owner" that was updated at least weekly with how much was needed to pay for the hosting fees.  When we saw that we were in the negative and the month was starting, people started donating and the hosting fees were always paid. 

I also personally don't see an issue with charging a yearly membership fee to help cover costs.  Then you would actually BE a member of IAP rather than just a registered message board user for IAP.


----------



## arioux

zig613 said:


> Hi Jeff…
> 
> I have read all the comments posted in this thread and it did make for some interesting reading.   A lot of different views and a wide range of advice is being provided.    But, what I didn’t see enough were THANK YOUs to you and the rest of the moderators for VOLUNTEERING your time and likely some money from your own pocket in keeping the IAP doors open.
> 
> Many thanks and keep up the good work!
> 
> Wade



I second that post


----------



## Smitty37

*I have none*



jeff said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have essentially been running a buying service for some high end components no longer sold by any other US Based Supplier. As I read the rules I will not be able to offer that service any longer. Am I reading correctly?
> 
> That doesn't hurt me because I don't make enough profit on them to dent my bottom line but I do think it is to the detriment of the membership that I apparantly won't be be able to continue these offers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know how else to draw the line other than at profit. We discussed this, and your buys specifically, for quite some time trying to see how they could be accommodated.
> 
> I don't know what you consider a "dent". What we were trying to avoid was the situation where someone was using member's money instead of their own to make a significant profit.
> 
> The only way I could see to accommodate this would be to remove the "on hand or committed to buy" provision. That opens things up to those who want to risk member funds rather than their own while making a profit on the goods and the float.
> 
> I'd be very open to hear your specific suggestions on how to accommodate this while protecting members from profiteers who prefer to risk other people's money.
Click to expand...

 
I don't have any suggestions. I just wanted to make sure I actually understood the rule. 

If you don't want that activity on your site - so be it. It has been a lot of work for very little benefit other than I did gain some loyal customers and good friends.

With the market research tool I might be able to come up with a way to provide this service to the membership without breaking the rule. Who knows.

BTW.  What I mean by not making a dent is that on the Dayacom purchases I've made....my profit has been less than 0 to date.  I might make some profit if/when my inventory gets sold.


----------



## leestoresund

Hmm. IMO that is a totally inappropriate question. "How much do you make?"
"Where does it go?"
Unless you are part owner of this enterprise it is not your business.
If you have been around a while (I've only been here a little more than a year) you can see that this is not a profit making business for the owners. If it were, they could manage it other ways, grow it and sell it (www.lumberjocks.com comes to mind).
If they make $10 or $5,000 we still get the benefit.

Just my $.03.

Lee


----------



## DurocShark

I don't want anybody to think I'm denigrating the site, or the mods, or the owner. Nothing like that at all. I have no horse in this particular race, and am just trying to share how I see this playing out. I want to help where I can.


----------



## qalien

"Where does it go?" and other such questions are absolutely valid....if I decide to donate money, I would like to know that what I donate is actually going to go towards what am being told it is for rather than going into someone's pocket.  And just to clarify, I am in no way shape or form accusing anyone of taking the money that is donated and keeping it.

This is a change in the way we do business on this forum.  I'm trying to form my opinion on it and I know there are many people wondering the same thing, even if they haven't voiced it yet.


----------



## Monolith

leestoresund said:


> Hmm. IMO that is a totally inappropriate question. "How much do you make?"
> "Where does it go?"
> Unless you are part owner of this enterprise it is not your business.
> If you have been around a while (I've only been here a little more than a year) you can see that this is not a profit making business for the owners. If it were, they could manage it other ways, grow it and sell it (www.lumberjocks.com comes to mind).
> If they make $10 or $5,000 we still get the benefit.
> 
> Just my $.03.
> 
> Lee



I'd agree, but for this site billing itself as an [.org]anization by pen turners for pen turners, not a commercial venture.

Is the goal of IAP to turn a profit, or to support the profession?  If it's to turn a profit, then come out and say so, and then no one will question your margins.  But if you're going to present yourself as a nonprofit "association" run for the benefit of the community, then don't act indignant when the community wants a justification for new fees and a peak at actual expenses.

Further, wouldn't a much simpler solution be to simply allow businesses to purchase traditional ads on the site?  IAP gets plenty of traffic for that to cover the cost of hosting.  That would also ensure that the costs are being paid be the folks who can most easily absorb the cost -- the businesses.


----------



## alphageek

qalien said:


> "Where does it go?" and other such questions are absolutely valid....if I decide to donate money, I would like to know that what I donate is actually going to go towards what am being told it is for rather than going into someone's pocket.  And just to clarify, I am in no way shape or form accusing anyone of taking the money that is donated and keeping it.
> 
> This is a change in the way we do business on this forum.  I'm trying to form my opinion on it and I know there are many people wondering the same thing, even if they haven't voiced it yet.



Willy,

I'm a moderator (and don't get paid) and even I have NO idea how much Jeff pays to host IAP, nor do I know exactly how much time, etc he puts into it (other than PLENTY).   I however, disagree that those of you asking Jeff those questions are free to ask, but Jeff is free to not answer.

Note that he is NOT charging a subscription to IAP, nor is he asking you to donate with this new endeavor.   He is charging for advertising.   If the money is going into his pocket, so be it.   This site is not a non-profit.   The members have no more right to know where the money goes than when you buy things at the store.

IMO - I'm glad that this is being done rather than the site being like many and overrun with banner ads and other advertising plastered all over most or all pages.

Dean

Dean


----------



## Smitty37

*Charging for Ads*

While I might have an issue or two on some of the restrictions on classified ads - paying for them is not one of them.  What's done with the money isn't one either.


----------



## arioux

WHERE DOES IT GO ?????????????

Have you take the time to look around.  This is where it goes.  This site is the best forum around about pen turning.  Great uptime, plenty of space to show pictures of our work, great response time, up to date forum software, mobile application support, great moderator team.  And all that for free to read, use, post, lurk, contribute, 24/7.  A librairy with information far better that than any $45. book out there.  Video to watch and download from great contributor's like Ed Davidson, Russ Fairfield (RIP), Scott Hettel,  that teaches you things that it would take mounts to master ortherwise and all that FOR FREE.  I know where it goes, it goes in my personnal evolution as a penturner, it goes i the distribution of information, knowwledge, it goes in the possibility of shearing and making new friend. 

Jeff could ask me a lot more that the little voluntary contribution that i give and i would be happy to do it and asking what he does with it is just an insult as far as i'm concern.

 "This is a change in the way we do business on this forum"

Well the forum howner can make these change and he did it. 

There are tons of  other ways to get pen blanks, kits and pen turning material but only one IAP so ask me if i care about the business side.


----------



## leestoresund

Gallen:

Hmmm. "IF I decide to donate money..."
Implies that you have not done so.
"Donate" - a gift.

BTW, if I remember correctly, you (as did we all) had to ask to be able to join this site and an offer was made which you accepted.

That does not give you the right to inquire as to how it is run. If that was an important factor you should have asked before you joined.

Do you want to have a hand in running it? Then ask Jeff for that privilege. Maybe you can buy in or maybe you can donate hundreds of hours to ease the work he does to make this available for us.

If you don't like the way it is run, or you no longer wish to participate, you are free to dis-invite yourself. You haven't invested anything and therefor not lost anything.

I don't know Jeff. Never met him. Never talked with him. I guess the only contact I've had with him was when he agreed that I could become a member.

I appreciate what he offers to all of us.

I suspect that if this were mine and I got the crap I see here, I'd just shut it down.

Jeff (and the rest of the moderators and "management") are looking for ways to make this better and more efficient.

Thank them. Don't question them.

(That's probably a quarters worth.)

Lee


----------



## alphageek

alphageek said:


> I however, disagree that those of you asking Jeff those questions are free to ask, but Jeff is free to not answer.
> Dean



Oops.. That reads wrong.. I meant that I disagree that people have a right to know where the money goes.

That was supposed to read:  Everyone is fee to ask, but Jeff is free to not answer.


----------



## PenMan1

Well, Jeff!
With all of the hoopla, I feel inclined to (and will) double my humble yearly contribution this year.

I have first-hand knowledge how time consuming and financially draining it is keeping a forum like this one on the boards!

If $5 to run a classified (which would cost more in almost any local newspaper or one small E-bay listing) is going to put a financial strain on members here, then I am financially "better off" than I thought!

I guess it is past time for me to try putting IN as much into IAP as I take away. If knowledge and information were money, the IAP would be making me rich!

I, for one, appreciate your efforts to do what is necessary to keep this site up and in good repair.

Respectfully submitted.


----------



## Smitty37

*Hmmmm*



PenMan1 said:


> Well, Jeff!
> With all of the hoopla, I feel inclined to (and will) double my humble yearly contribution this year.
> 
> I have first-hand knowledge how time consuming and financially draining keeping a forum like this one on the boards!
> 
> If $5 to run a classified (which would cost more in almost any local newspaper classified or one small E-bay listing) is going to put a financial strain on members here, then I am financially "better off" than I thought!
> 
> I guess it is past time for me try putting IN as much into IAP as I take away. If knowledge and information were money, the IAP would be making me rich!
> 
> I, for one, appreciate your efforts to do what is necessary to keep this site up and in good repair.
> 
> Respectfully submitted.


 
I don't think I've seen too many businesspeople complain...at least not about the charge for an ad.  We know the cost of doing business and $5 or $10 ain't gonna break the bank.  I've been selling out on slimlines at a loss for a couple of weeks now and to be honest a fee for advertising here would be "lost in the smoke" I lose that much in shipping on every sale.


----------



## Smitty37

*Mutual ....*

You cannot respond to a question such as “where can I buy X” with anything such as “I sell it”, or “ABC has them” when you own or are in any way affiliated with ABC, it's owners, employees, or officers. 

The above rule is from product references.  Does this rule apply if I have been a retail customer of a business who has also been a retail customer of mine.   

I do buy many things at retail from members who have also bought items from me at retail.  Many of my retail customers are in the business of selling pens and sometimes other items as well.  Are you now asking that before I mention that they have a product, I have to check back through my records to see if they ever made a purchase from me?


----------



## soligen

Smitty37 said:


> jeff said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have essentially been running a buying service for some high end components no longer sold by any other US Based Supplier. As I read the rules I will not be able to offer that service any longer. Am I reading correctly?
> 
> That doesn't hurt me because I don't make enough profit on them to dent my bottom line but I do think it is to the detriment of the membership that I apparantly won't be be able to continue these offers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know how else to draw the line other than at profit. We discussed this, and your buys specifically, for quite some time trying to see how they could be accommodated.
> 
> I don't know what you consider a "dent". What we were trying to avoid was the situation where someone was using member's money instead of their own to make a significant profit.
> 
> The only way I could see to accommodate this would be to remove the "on hand or committed to buy" provision. That opens things up to those who want to risk member funds rather than their own while making a profit on the goods and the float.
> 
> I'd be very open to hear your specific suggestions on how to accommodate this while protecting members from profiteers who prefer to risk other people's money.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I don't have any suggestions. I just wanted to make sure I actually understood the rule.
> 
> If you don't want that activity on your site - so be it. It has been a lot of work for very little benefit other than I did gain some loyal customers and good friends.
> 
> With the market research tool I might be able to come up with a way to provide this service to the membership without breaking the rule. Who knows.
> 
> BTW. What I mean by not making a dent is that on the Dayacom purchases I've made....my profit has been less than 0 to date. I might make some profit if/when my inventory gets sold.
Click to expand...

 
Jeff,

I'd like to encourage you to find a way to allow the kinds of buys Smitty does to continue to happen. 

Yes, Smitty is using our pre-payments as capitol to reach purchase mimums, but I dont see anything wrong with this - we all know and understand what he is doing, and anyone who doesnt want to take the risk doesnt have to. We get the benefit of some great prices on kits -- as long as we dont mind waiting. This is a perfectly valid business model, and this is common on other venues (pre-purchasing wine before it is released comes to mind). It is a business model based on trust.

It is admirable for you to want to help protect IAP members from people trying to take advantage, but I'm not sure that is achievable. Risk is in every transaction we make. The vendors advertizing here are typically small one person (or family) concerns, often run by a retired person. With any transaction we take risk - who knows when something "unfortunate" will happen to any vendor.

The kinds of deals Smitty does only work with someone with a good reputation. Personally, I would not even think about entering such a deal with someone new to the IAP, and I waited before entering a deal with Smitty until I had a certain degree of confidence. Each of us personally can choose the amount of risk we can tolerate.

Personally, I'd rather have the option to do an advanced purchase deal - guaging risk vs. savings for myself - rather than not have the option. As long as the terms of the deal are clearly layed out, I see nothing wrong with them.

BTW, I have absolutely no association with Smitty, other than I participated in one of his buys.


----------



## ed4copies

Well, time to stop being silent!

Were it not for the IAP, there would not be a place for penmakers to start competing to make "cool blanks".

If penmakers had not started making "cool blanks", there would not have been a clamor of IAP members to buy those "cool blanks" at one location.

Had there not been such a "request", Dawn would not have started "Exotics".

Had there not been an IAP, there would not have been a place to let penmakers KNOW about Exotics.

Now, the IAP is asking Exotics and others to PAY for that promotion they were giving us for FREE!!!

I have two comments:
1) It's about time.
2) It's too cheap!

Which leads to my real question:

CAN I PLACE THE FIRST AD???  
WHEN????

It will indeed be a PLEASURE to HELP SUPPORT THE IAP!!!!

Any business should expect to pay for advertising, we will be happy to do so!!  Thank-you, JEFF!!!!

PS:  Feel free to charge me for my signature line, as well--that is ALSO an AD!!!


----------



## wood128

Jeff, I really support your actions to make this a better site , with reasonable changes aS required. You and your volunteer staff do an amazing job of providing a great service. A small fee to list a classified ad is no problem to me, but might affect the business people who try to make a living selling pen supplies on IAP. Presently Ebay charges me no listing fees, but charges a sales fee of about 8% . I often get more than one sale from each listing on the classified ads of IAP. I would gladly volunteer my time on the cumputer to assist your team on IAP. Just let me know. Many good friends here .....keep up the good work.
Joe


----------



## tjseagrove

PenMan1 said:
			
		

> ....I guess it is past time for me to try putting IN as much into IAP as I take away. If knowledge and information were money, the IAP would be making me rich!
> 
> I, for one, appreciate your efforts to do what is necessary to keep this site up and in good repair.
> 
> Respectfully submitted.



I appreciate all you contribute that I can learn from along with all the other experienced members here.

Jeff, thank you for allowing me access to this wealth of information.  I just started this wonderful adventure the date I joined. With the help of the free help I have received, my sons and I have been able to tool up, kit up, and learn a lot !!!!  Your efforts do not go unnoticed but sadly not acknowledged enough.

Keep up the good work and I can grow with any changes you make.  I for one so no problems with you providing a Premium membership with member only forum for idea exchanges and help along with the privilege of using the logo on websites and business cards.  I currently do that for another forum and the $25 is nothing compared to the value I receive.

Thank you Jeff and also your whole team for all the work you do....

Tom


----------



## MesquiteMan

Let me chime in here on the money thing and clarify some things...

Jeff Brown is the sole owner of IAP.  It is a privately owned organization and is not a registered non-profit.  No one gets paid anything for their time to help run IAP.  I know for a fact that Jeff puts way more into IAP in both time and money than he ever gets in donations.  Some key facts for you...


IAP has 2 servers and they are dedicate servers.  Visit this link and you will find a dedicated server from them cost $200 per month.  Not saying Jeff uses them, this was the first one I picked with a search.  That is $400 per month just in hosting fees and does not include extra disk space or bandwidth.  IAP is NOT run on your typical $6.95 a month shared hosting account!  If so, you would have a hard time getting on.
V-Bulletin costs around $285 for the type of license IAP has
Jeff has done, and continues to do a lot of custom coding for IAP.  Sure, he does most of it himself but when is the last time you have checked to see what custom php coding costs to have done.
During the last birthday bash, many of the top prizes were PAID for by Jeff to give away.  They were not all donated.


----------



## OKLAHOMAN

I don't always don't agree with Ed but in this case I agree 100%, I'll gladly pay for advertising and yes even my signature line. If it wasn't for the IAP I would never have attempted to do shows the way I do them, which has made me not rich but a lot better off than just my retirement checks. And that has allowed me to start serving members here with my new site so Jeff no complaints here, this is your house and your rules and as said, about time.


----------



## asyler

as a ,newer member of the site, i would like to say a big thank to all the owners, mods and all who make this site the best source of supplies and knowledge i have found, i have learned a skill and a hobby that i never had any experience in Thank You


----------



## cwolfs69

*GOOD JOB JEFF*

Jeff, im 60+ years old. I have now idea how much you make off this site. My guess it is a (RED)  or a (-) number, depending on your accounting books knowing what i know about web hosting and the intricasies of forum management. However i do know that this is an amazing website. Im sure that most people don't realize the work involved in such things as knowing who is  signed in at this time, listing posts that have been updated since your last sign on, etc. Stop and think about just the job of determining who is signing up for the next PITH this fall. Don't worry about what a few naysayers and complainers say. Those of us who really appreciate this site are grateful for your work. As one other post said, at least you're letting it be discussed. I also thank those who have had genuine constructive comments and questions. But truly dislike the comments and condescension of some concerning your changes. 

Basically i want to say , Thanks you for the site and you make the decisions the way you need to keep this site going. 

Charley


----------



## Smitty37

*Thinking a little*



jeff said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have essentially been running a buying service for some high end components no longer sold by any other US Based Supplier. As I read the rules I will not be able to offer that service any longer. Am I reading correctly?
> 
> That doesn't hurt me because I don't make enough profit on them to dent my bottom line but I do think it is to the detriment of the membership that I apparantly won't be be able to continue these offers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know how else to draw the line other than at profit. We discussed this, and your buys specifically, for quite some time trying to see how they could be accommodated.
> 
> I don't know what you consider a "dent". What we were trying to avoid was the situation where someone was using member's money instead of their own to make a significant profit.
> 
> The only way I could see to accommodate this would be to remove the "on hand or committed to buy" provision. That opens things up to those who want to risk member funds rather than their own while making a profit on the goods and the float.
> 
> I'd be very open to hear your specific suggestions on how to accommodate this while protecting members from profiteers who prefer to risk other people's money.
Click to expand...

 
Jeff, since there seems to be very limited activity of this type perhaps you could make the wording such that prepayment ads can only be done with prior permission of the administrator.  That would allow you to check the offer and make sure that it is fair to the members...and check the vendor making the offer so you can have reasonable confidence that he/she will deliver what they promise or make the buyers whole if they can't deliver.

I seriously doubt that you'll be inundated with requests.  

I've done a number of these and no buyer has ever lost a penny on them and (unless I drop dead unexpectedly) no one ever will.


----------



## ed4copies

Sorry Smitty, I have to ask:  Who was the last person you knew who dropped dead EXPECTEDLY??


----------



## MesquiteMan

Another point to consider...

Most of the changes to the classifieds were created because of a few bad apples.  You guys would not believe the amount of behind the scenes bickering we, as moderators, have had to deal with due to vendor battles.  The VAST majority of reported posts have to deal with advertising issues of one sort or another.  IAP has changed over the years from a small tight knit community with a little bit of selling going on to a large community with a LOT of selling going on.  That is not necessarily bad, but the selling needs to be managed and confined to a specific spot on IAP so that folks who are here just for the sharing of knowledge can avoid the constant, in the face, advertising in all the wrong forums.

Part of the reason for charging to use the classifieds comes from the fact that there are quite a few who only come to IAP to sell.  They have found this wonderful, focused market where they can sell their wares at no cost.  They give ABSOLUTELY nothing back to IAP and do not even participate in the rest of the forum.  They only come here to sell and have been able to do that in the past for free.  There are also a lot of folks who make a LOT of money by selling at IAP.  It is time for these folks and the folks who come here only to sell, to start carrying their own water so to speak.


----------



## terryf

ed4copies said:


> Sorry Smitty, I have to ask:  Who was the last person you knew who dropped dead EXPECTEDLY??



Osama? :biggrin:


----------



## Dave Turner

I agree with Curtis in that part of the problem is a lack of awareness of how the IAP is organized. I know I was clueless until I read the Terms of Service.

Penturners.org is a private limited liability corporation owned by Jeffrey Brown of Westlake, OH. His company owns and runs this web bulletin board site. All the posts and library articles on the site become the property of Penturners.org LLC and its licensors. Anyone who obtains a username and password to use the bulletin board service becomes a member of IAP. The IAP otherwise does not exist outside the setting of this private corporation. "It has no formal governing structure or elected officials, no  dedicated offices or facilities, and no assets..."

As the owner, Penturners.org LLC is free to make whatever site rules it sees fit. As a private company, it is not obligated to reveal its finances or how much profit or loss it sustains.

I would like to thank Jeff for providing this valuable service. I have learned much from my fellow members, who give freely of their knowledge and experience. This site is well run and I think Jeff has been very responsive in meeting the needs of the penturning community. I also want to thank all the moderators and any others that have helped make this site the preeminent pen-making resource it is today.


----------



## DurocShark

A side note:

Have you considered selling banner ads? I don't know about vBulliten, but PHPBB and SMF both have pretty slick ad management modules out there. 

My thinking is package deals... IE: Buy banner ads, get extra listings in the Classified.

TheSamba, for example, uses them as the sole revenue generator (or they were when I was last involved with them...) 

Anandtech doesn't allow any commercial ads in the FS/FT forum, but sells advertising banners. (They're vBulletin too...) 

I'm sure you guys have thought about that, but on the off chance that you haven't...


----------



## Rob73

MesquiteMan said:


> Another point to consider...
> 
> Most of the changes to the classifieds were created because of a few bad apples.




Mmmm Hmmm  -- It's Ed isn't it.. Just look at that Avatar... He looks like trouble.


----------



## bitshird

I've been hanging low, but Andrew pointed me to this thread, and from the company standpoint, I still think 20.00 a month is a bargain, Count Woodchuck Lathe Tools  in.
 Jeff does a great job with this site, and there are many thousands of dollars a month made with no fee charged for advertising so Pay up or Shut up!!!


----------



## ed4copies

Rob73 said:


> MesquiteMan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Another point to consider...
> 
> Most of the changes to the classifieds were created because of a few bad apples.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mmmm Hmmm  -- It's Ed isn't it.. Just look at that Avatar... He looks like trouble.
Click to expand...


IS youse on da soud side?
or wherbouts?

Da boys will pay yose a visit, ya no whad I mene??


----------



## MesquiteMan

DurocShark said:


> A side note:
> 
> Have you considered selling banner ads? I don't know about vBulliten, but PHPBB and SMF both have pretty slick ad management modules out there.
> 
> My thinking is package deals... IE: Buy banner ads, get extra listings in the Classified.
> 
> TheSamba, for example, uses them as the sole revenue generator (or they were when I was last involved with them...)
> 
> Anandtech doesn't allow any commercial ads in the FS/FT forum, but sells advertising banners. (They're vBulletin too...)
> 
> I'm sure you guys have thought about that, but on the off chance that you haven't...



I can not speak for Jeff specifically but I do know that he has told me many times that there will NEVER be any ads on IAP outside of the classifieds.  That would turn IAP into just another commercial site.  Also, there are still a lot of folks here on IAP that despise advertising in the wrong place (I am one) and nothing would be worse than having an ad shoved in your face on every page you visit like so many other sites.  I even use adblock so that I do NOT have to see ads on other sites unless I want to see them.  IAP is not a commercial venture to make a profit.  Jeff keeps this place alive due to his commitment and love of penmaking.  It has never been about making money and from what he tells me, it never will be.  And from what he tells me, he puts more money into IAP of his own than he receives so it is truly a labor of love.

Heck, I am sure he could sell IAP for a SIGNIFICANT profit and not have to deal with all the crap that he deals with but has chosen to not do so.


----------



## DurocShark

That's cool. I completely understand your point of view.

The ads (banner ads that STAY IN ONE PLACE anyway) don't bother me. Kind of like commercials on broadcast TV. It's the price you pay for a free service. (Don't get me started on commercials on CABLE TV... grr...)


----------



## Smitty37

*My Dad*



ed4copies said:


> Sorry Smitty, I have to ask: Who was the last person you knew who dropped dead EXPECTEDLY??


 
We expected him to die for at least a couple of weeks before he finally went.  My neice and one of my brothers were also known to be dying for about a month before they went.  Enough time that they could have passed on needed information to handle any outstanding transactions.


----------



## jeff

DurocShark said:


> A side note:
> 
> Have you considered selling banner ads? I don't know about vBulliten, but PHPBB and SMF both have pretty slick ad management modules out there.
> 
> My thinking is package deals... IE: Buy banner ads, get extra listings in the Classified.
> 
> TheSamba, for example, uses them as the sole revenue generator (or they were when I was last involved with them...)
> 
> Anandtech doesn't allow any commercial ads in the FS/FT forum, but sells advertising banners. (They're vBulletin too...)
> 
> I'm sure you guys have thought about that, but on the off chance that you haven't...



If you think this has been a difficult discussion, imagine introducing banner ads! :biggrin: 

Let me say this about banner ads. I think we could introduce them and they'd eventually be something people would learn to tolerate. They could generate significant revenue. And I'm well aware of the technical means to implement them.

There are two reasons you won't see them here any time soon. 1 - One of our distinguishing features is that we don't have them, and I enjoy that. 2 - It's against my personal philosophy to follow the trend today to monetize every single thing that can be used to make a buck. It's gotten vulgar if you ask me. I see ads on places I just cannot believe we have stooped to using to make money. I am sick of the assault on my senses. Maybe I'm not hungry for money because I have a good day job (so watch out when I retire -- I'll be squeezing every penny I can out of your eyeballs!)

We will soon be rolling out a "marketplace" page which I believe is a tasteful and simple way to generate some additional revenue. We may at some future time allow some small and tasteful advertising in various ways, but for the moment, I think we're good :biggrin:


----------



## jeff

soligen said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jeff said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have essentially been running a buying service for some high end components no longer sold by any other US Based Supplier. As I read the rules I will not be able to offer that service any longer. Am I reading correctly?
> 
> That doesn't hurt me because I don't make enough profit on them to dent my bottom line but I do think it is to the detriment of the membership that I apparantly won't be be able to continue these offers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know how else to draw the line other than at profit. We discussed this, and your buys specifically, for quite some time trying to see how they could be accommodated.
> 
> I don't know what you consider a "dent". What we were trying to avoid was the situation where someone was using member's money instead of their own to make a significant profit.
> 
> The only way I could see to accommodate this would be to remove the "on hand or committed to buy" provision. That opens things up to those who want to risk member funds rather than their own while making a profit on the goods and the float.
> 
> I'd be very open to hear your specific suggestions on how to accommodate this while protecting members from profiteers who prefer to risk other people's money.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I don't have any suggestions. I just wanted to make sure I actually understood the rule.
> 
> If you don't want that activity on your site - so be it. It has been a lot of work for very little benefit other than I did gain some loyal customers and good friends.
> 
> With the market research tool I might be able to come up with a way to provide this service to the membership without breaking the rule. Who knows.
> 
> BTW. What I mean by not making a dent is that on the Dayacom purchases I've made....my profit has been less than 0 to date. I might make some profit if/when my inventory gets sold.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Jeff,
> 
> I'd like to encourage you to find a way to allow the kinds of buys Smitty does to continue to happen.
> 
> Yes, Smitty is using our pre-payments as capitol to reach purchase mimums, but I dont see anything wrong with this - we all know and understand what he is doing, and anyone who doesnt want to take the risk doesnt have to. We get the benefit of some great prices on kits -- as long as we dont mind waiting. This is a perfectly valid business model, and this is common on other venues (pre-purchasing wine before it is released comes to mind). It is a business model based on trust.
> 
> It is admirable for you to want to help protect IAP members from people trying to take advantage, but I'm not sure that is achievable. Risk is in every transaction we make. The vendors advertizing here are typically small one person (or family) concerns, often run by a retired person. With any transaction we take risk - who knows when something "unfortunate" will happen to any vendor.
> 
> The kinds of deals Smitty does only work with someone with a good reputation. Personally, I would not even think about entering such a deal with someone new to the IAP, and I waited before entering a deal with Smitty until I had a certain degree of confidence. Each of us personally can choose the amount of risk we can tolerate.
> 
> Personally, I'd rather have the option to do an advanced purchase deal - guaging risk vs. savings for myself - rather than not have the option. As long as the terms of the deal are clearly layed out, I see nothing wrong with them.
> 
> BTW, I have absolutely no association with Smitty, other than I participated in one of his buys.
Click to expand...


We'll discuss this in the back room and see what we can come up with.


----------



## witz1976

I have no problem kicking $5 or $10 to advertise, now that I may be able to offer something worth advertising. 

As for what this site makes or doesn't, I personally find it sickening that people have the kohonies to even ask about the financial details of this site or what Jeff makes or doesn't make.  It's a business or group you do not own, so it is not your business.  Do you go run down to your local hardware store and ask to see his books?  

Sorry but that seriously rubbed me the wrong way...  

Jeff & the volunteer mods, thank you for what you do and I hope you keep doing what you do!


----------



## G1Pens

I have read this thread from start to it's current end. I am new here am reluctant to jump into this. But I would like to throw in my two cents worth.

First, I am extremely grateful for this forum. As a newbie it has been a great source of knowledge and encouragement. Without it, I doubt I would be where I am in making pens at this moment, and there is a good chance I would have given up and quit altogether. So thank you to Jeff and the mods for your time and financial investment into this forum.

Second, I have bought a lot...way too much...from various individuals here through the individual and business classifieds. I hope I can continue to do that. I have never had an issue with any transaction I have made.

From reading the posts here I get the feeling that the cost of $5 or $10 is not really and issue for most people. From what I read the concerns are more centered around some of the rule changes. I am just hoping that the changes being made will not result in fewer members offering their wares for sale.

Finally, I want to go on record as stating that I would have no issues with Jeff implementing a "paid member" category. I have no idea what that would involve as far as administration. But I for one would have no problem paying an annual fee to be able to have advanced use of the forum. I am thinking no paying members could read posts, but not reply or create new posts. Paying members would be able to do everythign we now do. With this model perhaps there could still be an individual classifieds section at no cost to paid members for one time sales...kind of like a garage sale area. Members who regularly offer blanks, pen kits, tools, etc, would still need pay for their ads in a separate area. (As a note: I would really like for Smitty to be able to still do his deals. I am aware of the (little) risk invoved in his special deal.

Finally. In the end it is Jeff's board and I will abide by whatever rules he decides to implement and I will still be grateful. I will still be an active member. I will still learn and try to help others. If I have anythign to sell to pen turners, I will meet his guidelines and pay his fees without griping.

After all, if we don't like it, we can just go away!


----------



## jeff

Let me make one brief comment about the financial questions. Nobody "makes anything". Money received is either expended on legitimate needs to run the site and support the IAP, or it's in the bank. As the donation page says, "_We're an all-volunteer operation. Nobody gets any salary or payment of any kind for their labor in connection with developing or supporting the site. Donated funds are used primarily to pay hosting and bandwidth costs, purchase site-support software and hardware, and obtain professional services._"


----------



## MesquiteMan

And go further with that, Jeff...the money that is in the bank is used to buy nice, cool prizes for the birthday bash and other events, provide capital for buying those nice mugs, etc.  Nothing is going into Jeff's pocket or for his personal benefit.

BTW, Jeff, when is the Moderator and Manger's convention in Hawaii?  Did you end up with the 5 star or 4 star hotels for us to stay in and are paying for first class or coach?:biggrin:  (JUST KIDDING, OF COURSE!)


----------



## MesquiteMan

G1Pens said:


> With this model perhaps there could still be an individual classifieds section at no cost to paid members for one time sales...kind of like a garage sale area.



We have that in the current DOC...it is the Steals and Deals section.  This is meant to be the garage/shop type of sales where you are not trying to make a profit and it is 100% free.


----------



## Texatdurango

Well I sat here and read 95 posts after reading through the new "IAP Department of COmmerce" rules and gotta say.............. Looks like a LOT of work!

Jeff, I might have missed it somewhere along the lines (since some posts got a little blury) but I have a comment and a question that I didn't recall seeing an answer to.

As Curtis said, most of these changes were because of problems being caused by a few bad apples. Keeping in mind that these bad apples are still amongst us and bad apples being what they are, these characters will continue to seek ways around the rules as they always have. 

With that in mind, one of the growing trends (In my opinion)  I have seen in the past year is for "John Doe" to post a photo of a pen describing who made the blank, where the kit can be purchased and what a great outfit company X is for making the kit/blank available to them. Some of these posts make a person wonder... are they just totally tickled pink about the pen and are just compelled in sharing all the details or could there be another motive behind the post!

You briefly mentioned "Shill" posting and the rules I read addressed relatives, officers of a company, etc but I don't recall seeing anything that would curb this sort of "Advertising" by customers or just friends. A happy customer is one thing but a happy customer three times a week is advertising.......... or is it?

Is anything specifically spelled out addressing these types of posts by friends or customers of a vendor?


----------



## Texatdurango

MesquiteMan said:


> ......BTW, Jeff, when is the Moderator and Manger's convention in Hawaii? Did you end up with the 5 star or 4 star hotels for us to stay in and are paying for first class or coach?:biggrin: (JUST KIDDING, OF COURSE!)


 
I knew it!  All you moderators are living large flitting about the globe enjoying lifes pleasures to  the extreme.  Two years ago I visited Curtis and the rest of the Central Texas bunch in San Marcos and I'd swear Curtis had a nice tan and was speaking with a bit of a Hawain drawl!  This explains a lot!


----------



## Texatdurango

jeff said:


> .......There are two reasons you won't see them here any time soon. 1 - One of our distinguishing features is that we don't have them, and I enjoy that. 2 - It's against my personal philosophy to follow the trend today to monetize every single thing that can be used to make a buck. It's gotten vulgar if you ask me. I see ads on places I just cannot believe we have stooped to using to make money. I am sick of the assault on my senses. Maybe I'm not hungry for money because I have a good day job (so watch out when I retire -- I'll be squeezing every penny I can out of your eyeballs!)


 
Except for the eyball squeezing part, all I can say is ..... *ATTA BOY!*


----------



## arw01

Very glad to see some accommodation being discussed to continue with the pre-buys and group purchases that are done.

Turkish Walnut comes to mind as a vendor that only sells here, does not seem to contribute.  But I believe we all have the ability to ignore a particular poster?  I'm making the point that if someone wants to complain about a vendor, go hit the ignore button for them.

I bought a few blanks and Ed's let's take a risk adventure when we as a group tried them for the first time.  We all knew the risks and put our $25.00 into the kitty.  I still have to rescue the remaining blanks from my son's stash every time he goes through the blank boxes!

Alan


----------



## MesquiteMan

arw01 said:


> Turkish Walnut comes to mind as a vendor that only sells here, does not seem to contribute.  But I believe we all have the ability to ignore a particular poster?  I'm making the point that if someone wants to complain about a vendor, go hit the ignore button for them.



We are not wanting to run any of these types of vendors away, we just want them to help foot the bill.


----------



## PenMan1

Thanks for NOT considering banners, Jeff.
My computer is fast enough for an old guy, losing my hair saves me a fortune on shampoo / haircuts and the best I remember my sex life was good too.


----------



## DocStram

I've been a member of IAP since February, 2006.  I lurked for a year before actually joining.  Over the years, I've become dismayed by what I saw as the over commercialization of IAP.  It's my feeling that the "family" atmosphere gave way to more and more people wanting to make a buck of off other members.  In my book, family members don't financially profit from other family members.  It's just how I see things.

I have caused Jeff and the other mods more than my fair share of grief over what I saw as people using IAP to line their pockets.  I've written some pretty rough emails to Jeff, Curtis, and the other mods with my complaints.  Some long term friendships were severed by my criticisms.  

I've spent more than several hours today reading through the DOC regulations.  Yes, there may be the need for some fine tuning, but, personally, I welcome the changes.  There was obviously a whole lot of time and effort put into the new rules.  I also appreciate the fact that Jeff and the mods are willing to consider revisions as needed.

Finally, I am appalled by the posts asking Jeff for an accounting of money donated to IAP.  I've donated to IAP every year since I first joined.  I would never want to insult Jeff by insinuating that he is profiting from the site.  The fact is, I am a guest here.  I donate money to help run the site because I trust Jeff.  And that trust, is the bottom line.


----------



## ed4copies

PenMan1 said:


> Thanks for NOT considering banners, Jeff.
> My computer is fast enough for an old guy, losing my hair saves me a fortune on shampoo / haircuts and the best I remember my sex life was good too.



So, you are clearly saying you need some "memory enhancing vitamins"---let me tell you about these marvelous little pills you can take just ONCE every five minutes!!!!>>>>

See details in our BANNER AD!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## EBorraga

Texatdurango said:


> With that in mind, one of the growing trends (In my opinion) I have seen in the past year is for "John Doe" to post a photo of a pen describing who made the blank, where the kit can be purchased and what a great outfit company X is for making the kit/blank available to them. Some of these posts make a person wonder... are they just totally tickled pink about the pen and are just compelled in sharing all the details or could there be another motive behind the post!


 
This is one of the major problems I have. It's kind of like watching Ted Nugent's show "Call of the wild". I'm here in my Jones deer stand, with my Come Here Deer scent, and my Mathews Bow. I also have Bob's broad tips, and Johnny's Camo on. Just my opinion though.


----------



## tool-man

Jeff
Let me first thank you so very much for this fine web site.

Regarding Smittys pre order sales, I have been a satisfied customer of his on several occasions.  If you can find a way to allow these types of sales (one where the seller does not have the merchandise in hand or on order) I believe it would be of benefit to buyers.  I know it has been for me.  Thanks for listening.



jeff said:


> soligen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jeff said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have essentially been running a buying service for some high end components no longer sold by any other US Based Supplier. As I read the rules I will not be able to offer that service any longer. Am I reading correctly?
> 
> That doesn't hurt me because I don't make enough profit on them to dent my bottom line but I do think it is to the detriment of the membership that I apparantly won't be be able to continue these offers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know how else to draw the line other than at profit. We discussed this, and your buys specifically, for quite some time trying to see how they could be accommodated.
> 
> I don't know what you consider a "dent". What we were trying to avoid was the situation where someone was using member's money instead of their own to make a significant profit.
> 
> The only way I could see to accommodate this would be to remove the "on hand or committed to buy" provision. That opens things up to those who want to risk member funds rather than their own while making a profit on the goods and the float.
> 
> I'd be very open to hear your specific suggestions on how to accommodate this while protecting members from profiteers who prefer to risk other people's money.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I don't have any suggestions. I just wanted to make sure I actually understood the rule.
> 
> If you don't want that activity on your site - so be it. It has been a lot of work for very little benefit other than I did gain some loyal customers and good friends.
> 
> With the market research tool I might be able to come up with a way to provide this service to the membership without breaking the rule. Who knows.
> 
> BTW. What I mean by not making a dent is that on the Dayacom purchases I've made....my profit has been less than 0 to date. I might make some profit if/when my inventory gets sold.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Jeff,
> 
> I'd like to encourage you to find a way to allow the kinds of buys Smitty does to continue to happen.
> 
> Yes, Smitty is using our pre-payments as capitol to reach purchase mimums, but I dont see anything wrong with this - we all know and understand what he is doing, and anyone who doesnt want to take the risk doesnt have to. We get the benefit of some great prices on kits -- as long as we dont mind waiting. This is a perfectly valid business model, and this is common on other venues (pre-purchasing wine before it is released comes to mind). It is a business model based on trust.
> 
> It is admirable for you to want to help protect IAP members from people trying to take advantage, but I'm not sure that is achievable. Risk is in every transaction we make. The vendors advertizing here are typically small one person (or family) concerns, often run by a retired person. With any transaction we take risk - who knows when something "unfortunate" will happen to any vendor.
> 
> The kinds of deals Smitty does only work with someone with a good reputation. Personally, I would not even think about entering such a deal with someone new to the IAP, and I waited before entering a deal with Smitty until I had a certain degree of confidence. Each of us personally can choose the amount of risk we can tolerate.
> 
> Personally, I'd rather have the option to do an advanced purchase deal - guaging risk vs. savings for myself - rather than not have the option. As long as the terms of the deal are clearly layed out, I see nothing wrong with them.
> 
> BTW, I have absolutely no association with Smitty, other than I participated in one of his buys.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> We'll discuss this in the back room and see what we can come up with.
Click to expand...


----------



## DurocShark

EBorraga said:


> Texatdurango said:
> 
> 
> 
> With that in mind, one of the growing trends (In my opinion) I have seen in the past year is for "John Doe" to post a photo of a pen describing who made the blank, where the kit can be purchased and what a great outfit company X is for making the kit/blank available to them. Some of these posts make a person wonder... are they just totally tickled pink about the pen and are just compelled in sharing all the details or could there be another motive behind the post!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is one of the major problems I have. It's kind of like watching Ted Nugent's show "Call of the wild". I'm here in my Jones deer stand, with my Come Here Deer scent, and my Mathews Bow. I also have Bob's broad tips, and Johnny's Camo on. Just my opinion though.
Click to expand...


I disagree. A finished pen is a finished pen, regardless of the motives behind the post. Personally I still want to see the pen. And just because I sell my metal leaf blanks, does that mean I can never post a pen made with them?


----------



## tjseagrove

EBorraga said:
			
		

> This is one of the major problems I have. It's kind of like watching Ted Nugent's show "Call of the wild". I'm here in my Jones deer stand, with my Come Here Deer scent, and my Mathews Bow. I also have Bob's broad tips, and Johnny's Camo on. Just my opinion though.



The difference is they pay $$$ for those mentions.  And, we all know that is standard fare for sporting shows of that type.

Tom


----------



## PTownSubbie

Jeff and Mods,

I want to first say Thanks for letting me be a part of this great community! I have learned so much in my time here. I haven't gotten along great with everyone but we find ways to co-exist.:biggrin:

It is Jeff's house and every time you enter IAP you are a guest in "Jeff's Livingroom" watching his television. My house, my rules.....Jeff's house, Jeff's rules. Jeff and the staff have put in a ton of effort in making these changes. I remember talking to Curtis many months ago and he mentioned upcoming changes. I am surprised it took this long to implement them but they are fairly well thought out. Great Job!

Change is hard and we as users don't often think things through before we talk. I have been thinking about this all day from the time Jeff posted it this morning. I have even spoken with some IAP members about the changes and my perspective has changed throughout the course of the day. Those that don't like the changes....well, you don't have to partake. But if you like what you get here at IAP, I hope you rethink your participation and hop onboard!

The only thing I would like to see is what some others have already mentioned. The pre-sale purchases allow penturners to receive a good product with less capital. I for one have participated in almost all of Smitty's buys and fully understand the risk but it is a risk I am willing to take! I hope you all can find a way to allow him to continue this!

Thanks for making this a great community!


----------



## MesquiteMan

DurocShark said:


> And just because I sell my metal leaf blanks, does that mean I can never post a pen made with them?



You will always be able to post your pens that you make from your blanks.  You will just not be able to say that you make and sell the blanks in that thread.


----------



## SCR0LL3R

MesquiteMan said:


> DurocShark said:
> 
> 
> 
> And just because I sell my metal leaf blanks, does that mean I can never post a pen made with them?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You will always be able to post your pens that you make from your blanks.  You will just not be able to say that you make and sell the blanks in that thread.
Click to expand...


That just seems kinda weird to me.


----------



## Texatdurango

DurocShark said:


> ...... A finished pen is a finished pen, regardless of the motives behind the post. Personally I still want to see the pen. And just because I sell my metal leaf blanks, does that mean I can never post a pen made with them?


 
Don, don't get me wrong, I LOVE seeing pens that people make, that is half of what this forum is all about.  The SOYP is the FIRST forum I visit every day when I log on.  I like seeing pens and discussing how we make them but seeing beautiful pens is one thing, having some members use this medium as just another way of showcasing theirs or others goods for sale is another.


----------



## SCR0LL3R

Of course your signature can say: blahblahblah.com - home of the super duper metal leaf blanks.


----------



## ed4copies

SCR0LL3R said:


> Of course your signature can say: blahblahblah.com - home of the super duper metal leaf blanks.



Many people probably do NOT KNOW, you can go to the USER CP/edit options/thread display options, and de-select "view signatures" and you will not have to deal with this distraction---if you wish.


----------



## Smitty37

*Yet...*



Texatdurango said:


> DurocShark said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...... A finished pen is a finished pen, regardless of the motives behind the post. Personally I still want to see the pen. And just because I sell my metal leaf blanks, does that mean I can never post a pen made with them?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don, don't get me wrong, I LOVE seeing pens that people make, that is half of what this forum is all about. The SOYP is the FIRST forum I visit every day when I log on. I like seeing pens and discussing how we make them but seeing beautiful pens is one thing, having some members use this medium as just another way of showcasing theirs or others goods for sale is another.
Click to expand...

  Yet I fail to understand exactly how saying where they got the components or that they sell the blank used would interfere with your enjoyment of seening the pen?  I frequently go to member's sites to look at the latest pens they have for sale with no intention of doing anything but looking at the pictures.  I look at the SYOP in the same way even though I have posted only one of my own pens there and that was to show off somebody elses work.  I don't even notice what the posters write about the pen.


----------



## Smitty37

*Some of us do.*



ed4copies said:


> SCR0LL3R said:
> 
> 
> 
> Of course your signature can say: blahblahblah.com - home of the super duper metal leaf blanks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Many people probably do NOT KNOW, you can go to the USER CP/edit options/thread display options, and de-select "view signatures" and you will not have to deal with this distraction---if you wish.
Click to expand...

 I usually have it turned off in mine ---- get more posts on a page that way because they take up less room.


----------



## SCR0LL3R

I want to see the signatures, I wasn't complaining about them. I want to know what I can buy where. 

I personally would prefer that a person could say where they got the material to make the pen, even if they made it themselves. Yes, this could be abused but I haven't found it to be abused so far. I know I don't make the rules... I'm just expressing my opinion.


----------



## Timebandit

SCR0LL3R said:


> I want to see the signatures, I wasn't complaining about them. I want to know what I can buy where.
> 
> I personally would prefer that a person could say where they got the material to make the pen, even if they made it themselves. Yes, this could be abused but I haven't found it to be abused so far. I know I don't make the rules... I'm just expressing my opinion.



I dont think they are saying you cant cast a blank, make a pen, and then show it off and tell everyone that you made the blank yourself. They are saying that if you are making blanks in quantity and selling them for a profit like a business would, that you cant make a pen out of a blank that you obviously make and sell and state that you make them, and have them for sale. Thats considered advertising for the blanks that you make and sell.


----------



## LandfillLumber

Wow just seen all this DRAMA,lol.Seems like $5/$10 is pricey for a single post I think a membership is the way to go for vendors???I stopped selling(well almost)over a year ago when the rules stopped allowing you to edit the original post,just made it to hard to keep things straight.Still can't see why that is a good rule as I just read a ton of people saying the rule makes no sence to them as well.The rules seem to just try to make money for the IAP,I know it needs money(what about membership/like most our local turning clubs have,mine is $25 a year)I just sold a few things so I could make a donation to the site.

Question???
I'm guessing that no matter what I will be treated as a vendor if I was to post a few things(odds and ends not part of my normal production sales)in the free ads?So I would not be able to ever post things for sale?

When I first read about fees for the classified ads and them being very low I thought a dollar per ad not $5/$10 that is a lot of money for an ad.Just my thought take them as you will.Victor


----------



## tim self

Thanks for inviting all of us into your living room.  This is *THE* largest wealth of free knowledge for pen making on the web.  I applaud you in changing some of the rules because this site has to be a big financial drain.  If and when I do sell something, I'll be glad to pay for that right.

With that said, the service Smitty has been provided is to be commended.  No where can we get these kits for the price, (without paying for MOQ on our own).  Please find some way to allow this to continue.

And if someone wants to know how much it costs to run a site like this, let them start their own.  It'll be a quick learning experience.


----------



## steeler fan1

I've read through the rules and been following this thread all day. Would like to throw out a few random thoughts. 

I don't sell anything here but do buy quite a few things. I hope that the rules, as they apply to vendors, don't end up being a block for buyers. In particular when a vendor offers a variety of blanks and the buyer selects the ones to buy. As I understand the rules that transaction is to be handled via PM and email. How does the next person know what is left? Maybe I'm just too dense to understand the process. 

I do know even under the current program of not being able to update the quantities left I've simple passed on some things. Call me lazy but I simply wasn't interested in going back through the whole thread and log and count what was left. 

I also beleive the "Smitty" rule should provide some latitude, maybe handle these on an individual basis. Seems to be the way of todays world but it is certainly a shame when the actions of a few put a burdon on the majority.

Again, I have no dog in this race and understand rules need to be established and enforced. Comments and input was asked for and these are afew things that come to mind.

Carl


----------



## MesquiteMan

SCR0LL3R said:


> I want to see the signatures, I wasn't complaining about them. I want to know what I can buy where.
> 
> I personally would prefer that a person could say where they got the material to make the pen, even if they made it themselves. Yes, this could be abused but I haven't found it to be abused so far. I know I don't make the rules... I'm just expressing my opinion.



You may not have found that it is abuse but as moderators and managers who have to deal with all of this, we HAVE found that it is abused quite frequently.


----------



## MesquiteMan

steeler fan1 said:


> I don't sell anything here but do buy quite a few things. I hope that the rules, as they apply to vendors, don't end up being a block for buyers. In particular when a vendor offers a variety of blanks and the buyer selects the ones to buy. As I understand the rules that transaction is to be handled via PM and email.



Carl,  You have not read all of the rules.  You are correct in the regular classifieds.  If a seller sells a lot of blanks and has you pick from a lot, then they really need to use the Premium Classifieds where "claiming posts" are allowed, no problem.  The parts that have to be handled through PM or e-mail are the "PM sent", "Paypal sent", "order shipped", "order received" sort of posts.


----------



## alphageek

To answer a few of the questions (Carl, Tim, & Victor - I'm working off your posts, but there is others too):

About the "variety of blanks" and updating quantities:
- Those are not being closed down, however those will have to be in the premium classifieds.   In those ads, posts can be made to claim specific blanks.   The transactions by email and PM are to reduce the message volumes when someone has 500 widgets to sell (or no limit) and the posts are "I'll take 3", etc.

About the editing rules:
- The editing restrictions had to be done because on at least 2 occasions a member went back and started removing mass amounts of posts.  Jeff put those rules in place to protect the site as a whole so threads done get messed up.

About the rule people are calling the "Smitty" rule:
- This is not just about Smitty.   The rules were adapted based on a variety of things that happened or were noticed.   Smitty has been given some options to consider.

(Victors question):
- "Will I be considered a vendor?":  The new ads are not based on vendor or not.   Each poster could post in each area, but has to follow the rules of that specific area.

Dean
Asst Mod


----------



## Smitty37

*Not Quite*



alphageek said:


> To answer a few of the questions (Carl, Tim, & Victor - I'm working off your posts, but there is others too):
> 
> About the "variety of blanks" and updating quantities:
> - Those are not being closed down, however those will have to be in the premium classifieds. In those ads, posts can be made to claim specific blanks. The transactions by email and PM are to reduce the message volumes when someone has 500 widgets to sell (or no limit) and the posts are "I'll take 3", etc.
> 
> About the editing rules:
> - The editing restrictions had to be done because on at least 2 occasions a member went back and started removing mass amounts of posts. Jeff put those rules in place to protect the site as a whole so threads done get messed up.
> 
> About the rule people are calling the "Smitty" rule:
> - This is not just about Smitty. The rules were adapted based on a variety of things that happened or were noticed. Smitty has been given some options to consider.
> 
> (Victors question):
> - "Will I be considered a vendor?": The new ads are not based on vendor or not. Each poster could post in each area, but has to follow the rules of that specific area.
> 
> Dean
> Asst Mod


 

I did not ask anyone for any options. Nor did I request any exceptions or any change or modification in the wording of the rule. Nor have I taken issue with any of the other rule changes.

Early on I asked Jeff if I was reading the rule correctly...he said I was and *that he was open to considering any suggestions I might have *to change the wording of rule that would allow my sales to continue and still provide the protection he wanted for the members. 

My first response was that I had none. I later did make a suggestion which has not been responded to yet and that's ok, it was just offered as something for management to consider.

*Now for everyones information* - 

Dayacom High End Kits currently not offered by any other US Seller that I am aware of *AND* offered at retail by Dayacom are the only part of my business that I can't comply with the new rule on. 

If anyone thinks that is a big profit cow waiting to be milked I will happily step aside and cede that business to them. 

From a bottom line prospective it makes little or no difference to me how the issue is decided; If the wording is left as is my high end kit buyers will just need to find another source, if it can be changed to allow me to continue and still satisfy Jeff's legitimate concerns they won't. It is not a big issue to my business either way and it is not a personal issut to me at all.


----------



## LandfillLumber

The fees and photo resrictions just have a very Ebay-ish feeling to me,and that is never a good thing,LOL.Victor


----------



## termitepenman

Jeff,
I want to say thank you for establishing this website.  I was fortunate enough to be able to sell some of my tools on your website.  I am ashamed to say that I did not donate to your site.  I will do so.  My feelings are that a fee to advertise is certainly justified considering all the time and expenses you incur.  I have learned so much from this site that if you ever offer a paid membership as an option, I would jump at the opportunity.

Dennis


----------



## IPD_Mrs

jeff said:


> Haynie said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am a would be buyer. It would be extremely beneficial and much appreciated if the sellers were allowed to edit pictures to show which blanks are sold. I personally have not bought blanks from here due to the fact that it is too much work for me, the buyer, to filter through the pages to see what is left. I am not a quantity buyer, nor is this a business for me. As a hobbyist it is not worth it to create a spread sheet to figure out what is still available. In the new system, the way I read it, the seller is not allowed to edit or alter their pictures and therefore there is nothing stream lined about this process.
> 
> Then again maybe I read it wrong.
> 
> Just my 2 cents.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Buyers can edit their original post to add words under each photo listing the available blanks. I see that all the time. Like this.
> 
> The idea behind not editing photos is to preserve a record of what was being sold. I suppose we could allow the editing of photos to add an "X" over blanks which are sold. Would that help you?
Click to expand...

 

Haven't read all the way through all pages, BUT, I think you are right on target here Jeff.  I generally find it MUCH easier to look through posts that use the X system than trying to read under each photo blanks 1,3,5 sold etc.  I would highly appreciate this option as both a buyer and a seller.

Linda


----------



## edman2

I will second the motion to allow the X on photos to let us know the items are no longer available.  Since I don't sell on IAP I have no dog in that hunt. But I do buy and buy and buy... so anything that makes it easier to spend all my hard earned money is appreciated!


----------



## Daniel

qalien said:


> "Where does it go?" and other such questions are absolutely valid....if I decide to donate money, I would like to know that what I donate is actually going to go towards what am being told it is for rather than going into someone's pocket.  And just to clarify, I am in no way shape or form accusing anyone of taking the money that is donated and keeping it.
> 
> This is a change in the way we do business on this forum.  I'm trying to form my opinion on it and I know there are many people wondering the same thing, even if they haven't voiced it yet.


*
You don't donate based upon what you hope to get. you donate to support what you already have.*


----------



## ctubbs

Jeff has many very reliable vendors here with a long history of quality service.  Perhaps offering well respected and established vendors something on the order of "Certified Vendor" would allow sellers doing us the service such as Smitty the ability of make those special offers available to us.
Now as to Jeff and the Moderators, these fine individuals are freely giving of their time and even money to us, the membership public, the use of this site that offers us the opportunity to give and receive vast volumes of information.  I have offered some small amount from time to time, but have received mountains of training from others that made the mistake themselves and were willing to share the correct way.  If I had been forced to learn all the free info myself, I can almost guarantee that my lathe would be in the junk pile by now.  As it is, I have contributed to the pens for troops and will be doing that once more this year, God willing.
Yes, if Jeff asked for a membership fee, I would pay it this morning gladly.  I do not care if he makes enough from this site to retire to Hawaii and take Curtis with him first class.  Just please keep this site online and running.  I am a member of a few other sites on woodworking, but there is nothing else on the web quiet like here.
To Jeff and all the mods, thank you.  Yes there have been a few of my post lost to my idiocy.
Oh, I do have one question.  I do respond to questions about what tool, kit, ect. from time to time.  Is that considered an advertisement under the new rules?  I have read this entire thread and the new rules.  Just wondering.
Charles


----------



## philb

Having read the rules they seem to mainly make sense. 

For me personally, I would just prefer to see a paid for membership. Would instantly get rid of all the problem of people having to pay a classified fee and mean only people how where interested in the site as a whole would be selling or buying. 

The only other rule I'm confused by is not being able to say that you made the blank your displaying. As I like to go off sdeaeching for new kits/blanks that I've seen on IAP. I have seen this abused though, and know where the mods are coming from. A blanket No, just seems I won't be able to find new products as easily!!

Any chance of a paid for membership? Or is that totally off the cards?

Phil


----------



## Daniel

Curtis, since the other thread is locked I am making this comment here.
I think you owe Smitty an apology.
First it is not unexpected that vendors will choose to no longer offer goods or services given the rule changes. How that will look is yet to be seen. Smitty's thread was actually a respectable way to go about shutting down a program. But you chose to see it as an attempt to foster group sympathy. I only see him informing people that a service will be getting cancelled. Otherwise you are reading between the lines to find basis for your claims.
You then presume to formulate answers, that must be unquestionably adequate. When in fact you have no qualifications to pretend you have answers. There is no way you could reasonably think you know the details of Smittys business well enough to know if an answer is an answer or not. Even so he explains why your ideas are not adequate and you are arrogant enough to accuse him of refusing perfectly good answers. Not like it is possible that your unqualified solutions are nothing more than crap now is it?
You then pretty much accuse Smitty of being an antagonist when the only person I see being antagonistic is you. There was no reason for you to be involved in that conversation other than to fill it with your assumed accusations.


----------



## rherrell

I have a problem with the buyers not being able to comment on the item they purchased. Word of mouth is very important to selling something, if people can't comment then how are others going to know if the product is any good or not?

I know we have the "Vendor Cheers and Jeers" forum but give me a break, nobodys gonna read that! The comments on the product need to be in the sellers ad where prospective buyers can see them first hand and make a decision on whether to buy or not. And besides, you can only run an ad for two weeks so I don't think "bumping" is even going to be an issue.


----------



## cwolfs69

i strongly agree the "X" over sold blanks sounds very understandable. therefore no confusion over, "is that the blank that was there yesterday" type questions, just here is the picture of blanks, the ones not X'd are still for sell.


----------



## Smitty37

*Don't go ther*



Daniel said:


> Curtis, since the other thread is locked I am making this comment here.
> I think you owe Smitty an apology.
> First it is not unexpected that vendors will choose to no longer offer goods or services given the rule changes. How that will look is yet to be seen. Smitty's thread was actually a respectable way to go about shutting down a program. But you chose to see it as an attempt to foster group sympathy. I only see him informing people that a service will be getting cancelled. Otherwise you are reading between the lines to find basis for your claims.
> You then presume to formulate answers, that must be unquestionably adequate. When in fact you have no qualifications to pretend you have answers. There is no way you could reasonably think you know the details of Smittys business well enough to know if an answer is an answer or not. Even so he explains why your ideas are not adequate and you are arrogant enough to accuse him of refusing perfectly good answers. Not like it is possible that your unqualified solutions are nothing more than crap now is it?
> You then pretty much accuse Smitty of being an antagonist when the only person I see being antagonistic is you. There was no reason for you to be involved in that conversation other than to fill it with your assumed accusations.


 
Curtis was just doing his job in his own way....I don't have any issue with that.  

I requested at the other thread be closed because I did not intend for or expect a  big controversy to develop.  It really isn't that important to me.


----------



## OLDMAN5050

I see it as more work for the moderators, what is wrong with the way it is now? a lot of us here are on limited incomes and some of the sellers have helped us a bunch to be able to continue our work for the charities that we are involved in.


----------



## jeff

OLDMAN5050 said:


> I see it as more work for the moderators, what is wrong with the way it is now? a lot of us here are on limited incomes and some of the sellers have helped us a bunch to be able to continue our work for the charities that we are involved in.



I can tell you without question that we did not make any change just for the fun of it. Each rule or policy was carefully considered and is there for a specific reason. The rules either reduce clutter and bumping, make the mods job easier, allow for more fair use of the resource, or improve the experience for buyers.

All that said, obviously we're asking for feedback and are willing to adjust. If you will give me specifics instead of just saying that it's more work for the mods and that the sellers can't help you out and longer, maybe we can improve how things work for you.


----------



## jeff

cwolfs69 said:


> i strongly agree the "X" over sold blanks sounds very understandable. therefore no confusion over, "is that the blank that was there yesterday" type questions, just here is the picture of blanks, the ones not X'd are still for sell.



No more votes needed. I'll make that change. It's perfectly reasonable.


----------



## Brooks803

philbaldwin said:


> Having read the rules they seem to mainly make sense.
> 
> For me personally, I would just prefer to see a paid for membership. Would instantly get rid of all the problem of people having to pay a classified fee and mean only people how where interested in the site as a whole would be selling or buying.
> 
> The only other rule I'm confused by is not being able to say that you made the blank your displaying. As I like to go off sdeaeching for new kits/blanks that I've seen on IAP. I have seen this abused though, and know where the mods are coming from. A blanket No, just seems I won't be able to find new products as easily!!
> 
> Any chance of a paid for membership? Or is that totally off the cards?
> 
> Phil


 

Being gone all day yesterday has surely left me with alot of reading to catch up on! I'm reading through the rules now so I can be familiar with them.

Phil, I think what Jeff and the Mods want to see is that if a post is made asking "where can I find Kit X or Blank Y?" is that the responses be handled via PM. That way it doesn't provide any additional advertisement to one place over another bc many venders carry the same items. As for saying who made the blank. If you made it yourself I don't see why you can't as long as it's not followed by "which you can purchase here at www.xyz.com".

That leads me to a question I have on a similar subject. Will it be considered advertising if we make a pen using a specialty blank made by someone and saying who the maker of the blank was to give credit where credit is due? Example being the current cast away box that I am running. Each caster is labeling the blanks that they made so if/when they are turned and posted we can give proper credit to the caster. Some of the blanks that are in there are blanks that have been sold in the classifieds so I don't know where the line on advertising has been drawn. Personally I think it should be allowed as long as information on where to purchase said blank is NOT provided.

I do want to say a thank you to Jeff for sharing the IAP with us. I'd be lost and doing something else had I not gotten involved. This is your house and your rules. I'll do my best to follow them!


----------



## LandfillLumber

*Wow well said.*



Daniel said:


> Curtis, since the other thread is locked I am making this comment here.
> I think you owe Smitty an apology.
> First it is not unexpected that vendors will choose to no longer offer goods or services given the rule changes. How that will look is yet to be seen. Smitty's thread was actually a respectable way to go about shutting down a program. But you chose to see it as an attempt to foster group sympathy. I only see him informing people that a service will be getting cancelled. Otherwise you are reading between the lines to find basis for your claims.
> You then presume to formulate answers, that must be unquestionably adequate. When in fact you have no qualifications to pretend you have answers. There is no way you could reasonably think you know the details of Smittys business well enough to know if an answer is an answer or not. Even so he explains why your ideas are not adequate and you are arrogant enough to accuse him of refusing perfectly good answers. Not like it is possible that your unqualified solutions are nothing more than crap now is it?
> You then pretty much accuse Smitty of being an antagonist when the only person I see being antagonistic is you. There was no reason for you to be involved in that conversation other than to fill it with your assumed accusations.




I thought the very same thing when I read the other post that has been shut down.Just not smart enough to type it so well(a carpenter not real smart,lol).I felt Smitty had only informed people and that was all.Lots of cooks in the kitchen what 10,000 members.

One thing that is being said is that this is Jeffs living room,I understand this is his site he runs it but the people are what make it a resource.Its a community thing I think,that sometimes feels lost when we have debates like this.I always say that these posts are great they get people talking,and change requires many to speak about ideas.

How many mebers on the site?10,000 plus well at even $2 a head that is $20,000,i realize mant would not pay a fee but these are the people that have not donated to the IAP and maybe should have.Or a mebership is for access to the classified ads only??Well thanks all for reading my two cents I do appreciate that very much(to be heard).Victor


----------



## mredburn

I would be dead set against a paid membership. The thing that makes this site so strong is the freedom to join and share. IF you started charging people to join we would lose so many new people that wouldn't join. Not knowing the value and knowledge that is here they would move on. Even for a buck. Better to have fund raising during the Birthday Bash and paid classified ads. There could even be a shameless fund raising event in mid summer. I appreciate the fact that Jeff shoulders the financial burden of this site above and beyond the revenues it does raise. But if that burden is building and needs to be carried by the membership or more of it, then its time to step up and do so. I do not believe that membership dues to join are necessary. I belong to other forums where there are levels designated by the amount you donate that are noted in your avatar space. IE Silver, Gold, Platinum, member Etc. This allows members to donate the level that they are comfortable at and acknowledges their contribution. The levels do not have to be large donations to be effective.


----------



## DurocShark

mredburn said:


> I would be dead set against a paid membership. The thing that makes this site so strong is the freedom to join and share. IF you started charging people to join we would lose so many new people that wouldn't join. Not knowing the value and knowledge that is here they would move on. Even for a buck. Better to have fund raising during the Birthday Bash and paid classified ads. There could even be a shameless fund raising event in mid summer. I appreciate the fact that Jeff shoulders the financial burden of this site above and beyond the revenues it does raise. But if that burden is building and needs to be carried by the membership or more of it, then its time to step up and do so. I do not believe that membership dues to join are necessary. I belong to other forums where there are levels designated by the amount you donate that are noted in your avatar space. IE Silver, Gold, Platinum, member Etc. This allows members to donate the level that they are comfortable at and acknowledges their contribution. The levels do not have to be large donations to be effective.



One forum I was a member of had an automatic "Sugar Daddy" custom title when a donation was made. 

Subscriptions only work for me if there are tangible benefits to becoming a subscriber above and beyond what's already here. If we did banner ads, a subscriber could be set to not see them. Additional features or quantities of classified ads. Etc etc etc.


----------



## jeff

rherrell said:


> I have a problem with the buyers not being able to comment on the item they purchased. Word of mouth is very important to selling something, if people can't comment then how are others going to know if the product is any good or not?
> 
> I know we have the "Vendor Cheers and Jeers" forum but give me a break, nobodys gonna read that! The comments on the product need to be in the sellers ad where prospective buyers can see them first hand and make a decision on whether to buy or not. And besides, you can only run an ad for two weeks so I don't think "bumping" is even going to be an issue.



Would you be ok with negative comments directly in your for sale thread? How about if you can't respond? One of the major complaints about the classifieds has been too much conversation cluttering what's for sale. It seemed unfair to allow no response to negative comments, so we decided on the C&J forum.

Something I have been tossing around (I have not yet discussed with the mods or mgrs...) is to make sub forums available in Cheers & Jeers for any vendor who wants one. That way people could Point to their own sub forum for reviews.


----------



## DurocShark

jeff said:


> rherrell said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have a problem with the buyers not being able to comment on the item they purchased. Word of mouth is very important to selling something, if people can't comment then how are others going to know if the product is any good or not?
> 
> I know we have the "Vendor Cheers and Jeers" forum but give me a break, nobodys gonna read that! The comments on the product need to be in the sellers ad where prospective buyers can see them first hand and make a decision on whether to buy or not. And besides, you can only run an ad for two weeks so I don't think "bumping" is even going to be an issue.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Would you be ok with negative comments directly in your for sale thread? How about if you can't respond? One of the major complaints about the classifieds has been too much conversation cluttering what's for sale. It seemed unfair to allow no response to negative comments, so we decided on the C&J forum.
> 
> Something I have been tossing around (I have not yet discussed with the mods or mgrs...) is to make sub forums available in Cheers & Jeers for any vendor who wants one. That way people could Point to their own sub forum for reviews.
Click to expand...


I like that idea, but I can see the subforum list growing like mad. Perhaps stickied threads instead? Then if a vendor stops doing business, the thread can be simply unstickied but the posts would still be searchable. (If you delete a sub-forum, would you lose that entire table of posts?)


----------



## elody21

Ok, 
I read most of the postings. I am saddened at this new turn. I don't make much on a $20.00 box of corian. After gas, strapping tape, paypal cost I maybe make $15.00 if that. that does not count my time. Then if I had to pay $5.00 on top of that.
I usually donate $50.00 a year to IAP. I do not run a buisness. The sell of corian only funds my pen habit which could eventually dry up.
I do not oppose some sort of fee  for a classified posting but $5.00 a post will pretty much make it not worth my time.
For some who make a lot of $$$$ what you are asking is not much, but for the average person just unloading what they don't need trying to give someone a bargain is going to be a thing of the past.
So if I increase my asking price by $5.00 and don't sell anything?
Even e-bay has a seperate charge for what is only sold.
I guess a percentage of the asking price would be too hard to figure?
I think I would rather pay a membership fee for belonging to the club than go to this.
Wouldn't that generate more $$$$?
At least one would know what is expected and feel that maybe IAP is at least a little theirs. Which I know it is not. I am NOT saying any of this in a snarky way. I am just expressing my ever so little opinion.
Alice

Jeff, I know this is completely your decision and I do respect that, but is there any way you would consider a vote on a possible membership fee? I think this club has a high enough status to charge for it's services. Look at all the pen companies that have taken members ideas as their own and made money. Included in the fee could be the right to sell items? This is what a lot of clubs do.
Alice


----------



## dhallnc

For what ever it's worth:

I joined the forum about a year ago absolutely ignorant of anything lathe related. By asking questions and reading through previous post, I became informed enough to buy the essentials and get started making pens.

I was amazed with the fact that I could be out in the shop, run into a problem, come inside and post my problem and within minutes have a solution to my problem. 

Health problems kept me away for a while and I have forgotten a lot of what I had learned. I am going to need to for help again just getting back to the low level that I was, but I know the help is here. For this I would be happy to pay a member ship fee, regardless of the classified change.

I hope that whatever transpires with the classifieds, I will be able to get in on some of the great deals I have seen in the past offered by some of the vendors here. Sure beats the big box retailers.


----------



## Timebandit

elody21 said:


> Ok,
> I read most of the postings. I am saddened at this new turn. I don't make much on a $20.00 box of corian. After gas, strapping tape, paypal cost I maybe make $15.00 if that. that does not count my time. Then if I had to pay $5.00 on top of that.
> I usually donate $50.00 a year to IAP. I do not run a buisness. The sell of corian only funds my pen habit which could eventually dry up.
> I do not oppose some sort of fee  for a classified posting but $5.00 a post will pretty much make it not worth my time.
> For some who make a lot of $$$$ what you are asking is not much, but for the average person just unloading what they don't need trying to give someone a bargain is going to be a thing of the past.
> So if I increase my asking price by $5.00 and don't sell anything?
> Even e-bay has a seperate charge for what is only sold.
> I guess a percentage of the asking price would be too hard to figure?
> I think I would rather pay a membership fee for belonging to the club than go to this.
> Wouldn't that generate more $$$$?
> At least one would know what is expected and feel that maybe IAP is at least a little theirs. Which I know it is not. I am not saying any of this in a snarky way. I am just expressing my ever so little opinion.
> Alice



Alice, 

You do NOT HAVE to pay anything. You are given the option to post your ad in the PREMIUM classifieds, for a fee, but you have the option of posting your ad in the regular classifieds, FOR FREE!!YOU DONT HAVE TO PAY ANYTHING. No one is forcing you to do anything. You only have to pay if you want to able to bump your threads, and have customers post in your threads, which bump them to the top of the page. Again you DONT HAVE TO PAY ANYTHING!! Please realize that you can still sell here for FREE.


----------



## rherrell

jeff said:


> rherrell said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have a problem with the buyers not being able to comment on the item they purchased. Word of mouth is very important to selling something, if people can't comment then how are others going to know if the product is any good or not?
> 
> I know we have the "Vendor Cheers and Jeers" forum but give me a break, nobodys gonna read that! The comments on the product need to be in the sellers ad where prospective buyers can see them first hand and make a decision on whether to buy or not. And besides, you can only run an ad for two weeks so I don't think "bumping" is even going to be an issue.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Would you be ok with negative comments directly in your for sale thread? How about if you can't respond? One of the major complaints about the classifieds has been too much conversation cluttering what's for sale. It seemed unfair to allow no response to negative comments, so we decided on the C&J forum.
> 
> Something I have been tossing around (I have not yet discussed with the mods or mgrs...) is to make sub forums available in Cheers & Jeers for any vendor who wants one. That way people could Point to their own sub forum for reviews.
Click to expand...

 

I would be PERFECTLY HAPPY with negative remarks!!!! I have a good, no GREAT product and I want everybody to know it! If a person is selling s#%t then he DESERVES negative comments.
I'm not getting rich on what I sell, I do it mostly as a way to stay busy and I also offer a LOW COST alternative for those on a budget. Having to pay every two weeks for an ad will either force me to quit advertising full time or raise my prices... and I'm NOT going to raise my prices.


----------



## DurocShark

Timebandit said:


> Alice,
> 
> You do NOT HAVE to pay anything. You are given the option to post your ad in the PREMIUM classifieds, for a fee, but you have the option of posting your ad in the regular classifieds, FOR FREE!!YOU DONT HAVE TO PAY ANYTHING. No one is forcing you to do anything. You only have to pay if you want to able to bump your threads, and have customers post in your threads, which bump them to the top of the page. Again you DONT HAVE TO PAY ANYTHING!! Please realize that you can still sell here for FREE.




That's not how I read it... Alice would be considered a vendor, and need to pay either $5 or $10 for her ad.


----------



## Timebandit

DurocShark said:


> Timebandit said:
> 
> 
> 
> Alice,
> 
> You do NOT HAVE to pay anything. You are given the option to post your ad in the PREMIUM classifieds, for a fee, but you have the option of posting your ad in the regular classifieds, FOR FREE!!YOU DONT HAVE TO PAY ANYTHING. No one is forcing you to do anything. You only have to pay if you want to able to bump your threads, and have customers post in your threads, which bump them to the top of the page. Again you DONT HAVE TO PAY ANYTHING!! Please realize that you can still sell here for FREE.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's not how I read it... Alice would be considered a vendor, and need to pay either $5 or $10 for her ad.
Click to expand...


Im sorry, i didnt know she was a vendor.:redface:  Never bought from here before. Why is she a vendor? Does she have a  business that supplies Corian and she advertises her business here. I  have only seen her post in the individual classifieds, not the business  classifieds. I also dont see here advertising here business, like with a website in her sig line or anything. If i am wrong, please disregard what i said before,but i think she is fine.


----------



## Ankrom Exotics

Before the edit options were removed it was very easy for us to list the items still available below each photo and remove them as they sold. If the ability to edit the original post is re-enabled I believe 2 follow up posts per day will be sufficient. If we can't edit the original post I foresee difficulties in keeping potential buyers current on item availability and creating a lot of back and forth PM's when people try to claim items already sold.

Also, if we list new items on our website can we list an ad in the classifieds to notify the IAP members?


----------



## elody21

I AM NOT a vendor. I do not have a corian buisness. I do not advertise any buisness here. Now I am totally confused.
Any sales I make are to fund my hobby, nothing more.
Although I have in the past ran adds where the profit went to Hurricane Katrina victims




Timebandit said:


> DurocShark said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Timebandit said:
> 
> 
> 
> Alice,
> 
> You do NOT HAVE to pay anything. You are given the option to post your ad in the PREMIUM classifieds, for a fee, but you have the option of posting your ad in the regular classifieds, FOR FREE!!YOU DONT HAVE TO PAY ANYTHING. No one is forcing you to do anything. You only have to pay if you want to able to bump your threads, and have customers post in your threads, which bump them to the top of the page. Again you DONT HAVE TO PAY ANYTHING!! Please realize that you can still sell here for FREE.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's not how I read it... Alice would be considered a vendor, and need to pay either $5 or $10 for her ad.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Im sorry, i didnt know she was a vendor.:redface:  Never bought from here before. Why is she a vendor? Does she have a  business that supplies Corian and she advertises her business here. I  have only seen her post in the individual classifieds, not the business  classifieds. I also dont see here advertising here business, like with a website in her sig line or anything. If i am wrong, please disregard what i said before,but i think she is fine.
Click to expand...


----------



## DurocShark

The way it's worded, if you're making a profit, you're a vendor. (Ok, that's kinda oversimplified, but you get the idea.)


----------



## Timebandit

Alice, if you re-read the rules, there are going to be different sections where you could post your ad. One could be in the regular classifieds, and its FREE. The thing is, is that you cant post in your thread to bump it, nor can customers. They also cant claim an item in your thread with a post, they have to PM you for the item. So your ad sits there until someone buys your item. Second you could post in the premium classifieds, and you can bump your thread, others can as well, and can make claiming post for your items, which bumps the thread. The thing with bumping the threads, is that it moves it to the top of the new threads list, therefore possibly producing more advertising for you and therefore possibly producing more business. Therefore the fee you have to pay for your advertising and business. The fee is aimed towards the people making a large amount of money and posting a lot of for sale items and threads and not you only making $15 with a new thread every few weeks or so. If i am explaining this wrong, someone please correct me.



elody21 said:


> I AM NOT a vendor. I do not have a corian buisness. I do not advertise any buisness here. Now I am totally confused.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Timebandit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DurocShark said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Timebandit said:
> 
> 
> 
> Alice,
> 
> You do NOT HAVE to pay anything. You are given the option to post your ad in the PREMIUM classifieds, for a fee, but you have the option of posting your ad in the regular classifieds, FOR FREE!!YOU DONT HAVE TO PAY ANYTHING. No one is forcing you to do anything. You only have to pay if you want to able to bump your threads, and have customers post in your threads, which bump them to the top of the page. Again you DONT HAVE TO PAY ANYTHING!! Please realize that you can still sell here for FREE.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's not how I read it... Alice would be considered a vendor, and need to pay either $5 or $10 for her ad.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Im sorry, i didnt know she was a vendor.:redface:  Never bought from here before. Why is she a vendor? Does she have a  business that supplies Corian and she advertises her business here. I  have only seen her post in the individual classifieds, not the business  classifieds. I also dont see here advertising here business, like with a website in her sig line or anything. If i am wrong, please disregard what i said before,but i think she is fine.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## Timebandit

DurocShark said:


> The way it's worded, if you're making a profit, you're a vendor. (Ok, that's kinda oversimplified, but you get the idea.)



No its not I make a profit and i am not a vendor. Please explain?


----------



## Monolith

Timebandit said:


> DurocShark said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Timebandit said:
> 
> 
> 
> Alice,
> 
> You do NOT HAVE to pay anything. You are given the option to post your ad in the PREMIUM classifieds, for a fee, but you have the option of posting your ad in the regular classifieds, FOR FREE!!YOU DONT HAVE TO PAY ANYTHING. No one is forcing you to do anything. You only have to pay if you want to able to bump your threads, and have customers post in your threads, which bump them to the top of the page. Again you DONT HAVE TO PAY ANYTHING!! Please realize that you can still sell here for FREE.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's not how I read it... Alice would be considered a vendor, and need to pay either $5 or $10 for her ad.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Im sorry, i didnt know she was a vendor.:redface:  Never bought from here before. Why is she a vendor? Does she have a  business that supplies Corian and she advertises her business here. I  have only seen her post in the individual classifieds, not the business  classifieds. I also dont see here advertising here business, like with a website in her sig line or anything. If i am wrong, please disregard what i said before,but i think she is fine.
Click to expand...


Regular classifieds are $5... which is basically a single post with no replies allowed.  Premium classifieds are $10, which allow responses.

The free classifieds are for hobbyists with one or two extra blanks that they don't need and want to get rid of, where profit is not the primary motivator.

The person who casts/cuts small quantities of blanks for fun, but still wants to make a small profit on them (just like turning pens for fun, but still expecting to sell them for a small profit) seems to be the person most hurt by these rule changes.

The goal seems to be to get the businesses which make large profits on the back of IAP to contribute, but there are obviously issues with the implementation.


----------



## DurocShark

Timebandit said:


> DurocShark said:
> 
> 
> 
> The way it's worded, if you're making a profit, you're a vendor. (Ok, that's kinda oversimplified, but you get the idea.)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No its not I make a profit and i am not a vendor. Please explain?
Click to expand...

Monolith did better than I could... :biggrin:


----------



## Timebandit

Monolith said:


> Timebandit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DurocShark said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Timebandit said:
> 
> 
> 
> Alice,
> 
> You do NOT HAVE to pay anything. You are given the option to post your ad in the PREMIUM classifieds, for a fee, but you have the option of posting your ad in the regular classifieds, FOR FREE!!YOU DONT HAVE TO PAY ANYTHING. No one is forcing you to do anything. You only have to pay if you want to able to bump your threads, and have customers post in your threads, which bump them to the top of the page. Again you DONT HAVE TO PAY ANYTHING!! Please realize that you can still sell here for FREE.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's not how I read it... Alice would be considered a vendor, and need to pay either $5 or $10 for her ad.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Im sorry, i didnt know she was a vendor.:redface:  Never bought from here before. Why is she a vendor? Does she have a  business that supplies Corian and she advertises her business here. I  have only seen her post in the individual classifieds, not the business  classifieds. I also dont see here advertising here business, like with a website in her sig line or anything. If i am wrong, please disregard what i said before,but i think she is fine.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Regular classifieds are $5... which is basically a single post with no replies allowed.  Premium classifieds are $10, which allow responses.
> 
> The free classifieds are for hobbyists with one or two extra blanks that they don't need and want to get rid of, where profit is not the primary motivator.
> 
> The person who casts/cuts small quantities of blanks for fun, but still wants to make a small profit on them (just like turning pens for fun, but still expecting to sell them for a small profit) seems to be the person most hurt by these rule changes.
> 
> The goal seems to be to get the businesses which make large profits on the back of IAP to contribute, but there are obviously issues with the implementation.
Click to expand...


Ok thanks. Im wrong about the regular classifieds, but there is still a FREE section somewhere where you can post you blanks for sale for FREE, it is call Steals and Deals i believe.


----------



## Timebandit

DurocShark said:


> Timebandit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DurocShark said:
> 
> 
> 
> The way it's worded, if you're making a profit, you're a vendor. (Ok, that's kinda oversimplified, but you get the idea.)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No its not I make a profit and i am not a vendor. Please explain?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Monolith did better than I could... :biggrin:
Click to expand...


This still doesnt make anyone who makes a profit a vendor. Monolith didnt explain that? Can you?


----------



## Timebandit

Rules directly from Steals and Deals

*Purpose:* The Steals & Deals forum is intended for selling  single and small lots of personally owned items. This might be a few  extra kits you don’t need, a used lathe or tool, some extra blanks, or  similar items related to pen making. There is no cost to place an ad in  Steals & Deals. (NOTE: For special circumstances which exceed the  quantity limits described below, such as one-time liquidation of an  entire shop, or an especially large number of items, please contact a  moderator for instructions and permission to sell in Steals & Deals.

The General Rules for All Selling apply in Steals & Deals

*All new threads in Steals & Deals are moderated:* This means  that they must be approved by a moderator before they will show up in  the forum. This gives the moderators a chance to ensure that the  items(s) you are selling are appropriate for Steals & Deals. It may  be several hours after you create a new ad thread before it shows up in  the forum.

*Limited Followup Posts Allowed:* Followup posts in ad threads are  not moderated and will show up immediately. To reduce forum clutter and  bumping, buyers and sellers must communicate via PM rather than in the  forum.  The following types of followup posts are allowed.

From the Original Poster (OP) saying the item or a lot is sold.
    One per day from the OP with additional information, such as items remaining.
    From a followup poster saying “I’ll take it”, or “I’ll take lots 1, 2, 5”
*No Repeat Selling:* You may not post an ad for essentially  identical items more than once per quarter. This means that you can sell  only one collection of blanks or one collection of kits every three  months ("Collection" means up to 5 lots of 5 items as described below.)

*Rules:*


You may post one advertisement to sell per week
    Ads can run until the item sells, or for a maximum of one month
    Items which don't sell can be re-listed once per quarter
    You may have only one ad running at a time in this forum
    You may sell up to five items or groups of items (lots) in any one ad
    If you are selling lots, you may include at most five items in each lot
    You may not offer individual items from lots
    Prices must be specified for each item or lot
    Up to five photos may be included in your ad
     “Claiming posts” allowed for specific unique items. (i.e. blanks)
    One followup post per day from the OP
    If you also sell in the Classifieds, you may not sell similar items in Steals & Deals


----------



## DurocShark

> The Steals & Deals forum is intended for selling  single and small  lots of personally owned items. This might be a few  extra kits you  don’t need, a used lathe or tool, some extra blanks, or  similar items  related to pen making.



AKA: If you're selling to make a profit, you don't belong in S&D. If you're selling because you don't need something any more, then you belong. 

For example, if I were to list my gold flake blanks, I would need to be in the Classifieds. But if I stopped making blanks and were unloading all my casting stuff including left over blanks, I might be ok to be in the S&D after checking with the mods. 

This is, of course, my interpretation of the rules as posted and as discussed in this thread. Hopefully Jeff or Curtis will clarify.


----------



## Timebandit

DurocShark said:


> The Steals & Deals forum is intended for selling  single and small  lots of personally owned items. This might be a few  extra kits you  don’t need, a used lathe or tool, some extra blanks, or  similar items  related to pen making.
> 
> 
> 
> AKA: If you're selling to make a profit, you don't belong in S&D. If you're selling because you don't need something any more, then you belong.
> 
> For example, if I were to list my gold flake blanks, I would need to be in the Classifieds. But if I stopped making blanks and were unloading all my casting stuff including left over blanks, I might be ok to be in the S&D after checking with the mods.
> 
> This is, of course, my interpretation of the rules as posted and as discussed in this thread. Hopefully Jeff or Curtis will clarify.
Click to expand...


The only reason YOU would have to be in the Classifieds is because YOU are considered a vendor. You MAKE and SELL your blanks through another vendor and you advertise that in your sig line. I do not. I sell blanks and make a profit, but i dont sell blanks as my business to make money. I dont MAKE blanks, and i dont buy wood just to chop it up and sell it. I sell blanks that i need to unload, as you say, that are taking up room in my shop and i dont need them anymore, but i WILL make a profit on them. This does not make me a vendor. Nor does it Alice.


----------



## elody21

Ok,
 I think I am beginning to understand.
Here is my situation. About 10 years ago I cleaned out a ware house housing a lot of corian and avonite. The payment for 5 days work, was material. That is the reason why I have so much. As I need money for my habit, I mean hobby, I try to put some boxes together and sell them. Where do I stand? I am not making and selling items, just trying to get rid of what I do not need.
Alice


----------



## Dave Turner

Just another suggestion for Jeff and his helpers.

Have sub-forums in the Premium Classified section. Any vendor that wants to (and can maintain the IAP "seal of approval") can pay an annual fee to obtain their own sub-forum. This sub-forum becomes their own little "store" and each vendor can establish their own rules for how they want to run it within basic guidelines established by penturners.org LLC. If a vendor receives too many substantiated complaints, they are put on probation and, unless they turn things around, their sub-forum gets closed down. I see several benefits of this system:



I know exactly where to go to find out what the latest IAP specials are for my favorite vendors.
More flexibility and more responsibility for vendors. They are accountable for what happens on their sub-forum.
Extra revenue for penturners.org LLC
Less clutter on the main classified forums from the major vendors.
If a sub-forum vendor wants to, they can still pay the money for a post in the classified forum alerting people to visit their sub-forum for details on a special.
You've probably already thought of and discarded this idea for many good reasons. With the limited information I have, it makes sense to me.


----------



## maxwell_smart007

Wow, I'm going crosseyed from reading sixteen pages of posts!  Just a few quick thoughts from my perspective. 

Regarding the "thanks Jeff and mods" - there are more than just the mods and Jeff at work behind the scenes.  There is a team of managers, and everyone had input and put hard work into the development of the classifieds. 

The amount of money and time that goes into this site is evident every time you explore its pages.  All of the time is donated, either by the mods and managers, by individuals like yourselves who come here and post often, and by Jeff himself.  The site isn't listed as a not-for-profit, but its run by volunteers. 

As far as a 'membership fee' goes, I'm vehemently against that.  This is an education site.  Some of us are retired and on fixed income, some are making big bucks, some of us are students with no income, etc.  I do not believe that you should have to pay for your education, but should be free to donate what you think you get out of the site - hence the voluntary contribution idea.  I do not think that this should/will change.  

As far as the classified changes go, it is human nature to not like change, even when the change is for the better.  I complained along with the rest when they put a roundabout in my town, but now that it's in, I see the rationale.  There are reasons behind everything - we didn't make these changes on a whim. 

When you go to a show, your are asked to pay for a booth fee.  This fee is the cost of doing business in the show.  The classifieds now have a booth fee, and it's extremely reasonable. Most posts in the classifieds make far more than five dollars profit - some make thousands.  For the small business - if your business ad doesn't generate five or ten dollars of revenue, then you might want to consider a new business plan - perhaps through consolidating some of your ads into a larger one that's more economical.  

If people are going to leave the IAP because an ad will cost five dollars, then perhaps they're not looking at WHY the IAP is here.  It was not developed as a springboard to a classified or store - it was developed to further and advance penturning through education and discussion.  

This isn't a 'squeeze', but rather asking those who profit from the IAP to begin to help pay for some of the improvements.  The free 'make as much money as you can without even having to give $5 back' model will end soon - I think the new one is reasonable. 

By asking for a reasonable fee to post an ad, the number of ads should decline.  Instead of three ads with three blanks, that same person would likely post one ad with nine blanks - savings for him, less ads on the site, same number of shopping opportunities for us, and more money for the IAP to keep the lights on and maybe buy some new and improved lights! The IAP is not, and never has been, stagnant.


----------



## elody21

With all due respect , since when is education free?
Is $25.00 a year really going to make or break some one? I really am not looking for a fight. The question was a valid one.
I have not ever been in a club where there is not a membership fee for operating cost.
That said I DO understand where this change is coming from. I just need to know here I stand.
I value this site more than any I have ever been to and have been here for 7 years. I would not want to give it up.
Cordially Alice





maxwell_smart007 said:


> Wow, I'm going crosseyed from reading sixteen pages of posts!  Just a few quick thoughts from my perspective.
> 
> Regarding the "thanks Jeff and mods" - there are more than just the mods and Jeff at work behind the scenes.  There is a team of managers, and everyone had input and put hard work into the development of the classifieds.
> 
> The amount of money and time that goes into this site is evident every time you explore its pages.  All of the time is donated, either by the mods and managers, by individuals like yourselves who come here and post often, and by Jeff himself.  The site isn't listed as a not-for-profit, but its run by volunteers.
> 
> As far as a 'membership fee' goes, I'm vehemently against that.  This is an education site.  Some of us are retired and on fixed income, some are making big bucks, some of us are students with no income, etc.  I do not believe that you should have to pay for your education, but should be free to donate what you think you get out of the site - hence the voluntary contribution idea.  I do not think that this should/will change.
> 
> As far as the classified changes go, it is human nature to not like change, even when the change is for the better.  I complained along with the rest when they put a roundabout in my town, but now that it's in, I see the rationale.  There are reasons behind everything - we didn't make these changes on a whim.
> 
> When you go to a show, your are asked to pay for a booth fee.  This fee is the cost of doing business in the show.  The classifieds now have a booth fee, and it's extremely reasonable. Most posts in the classifieds make far more than five dollars profit - some make thousands.  For the small business - if your business ad doesn't generate five or ten dollars of revenue, then you might want to consider a new business plan - perhaps through consolidating some of your ads into a larger one that's more economical.
> 
> If people are going to leave the IAP because an ad will cost five dollars, then perhaps they're not looking at WHY the IAP is here.  It was not developed as a springboard to a classified or store - it was developed to further and advance penturning through education and discussion.
> 
> This isn't a 'squeeze', but rather asking those who profit from the IAP to begin to help pay for some of the improvements.  The free 'make as much money as you can without even having to give $5 back' model will end soon - I think the new one is reasonable.
> 
> By asking for a reasonable fee to post an ad, the number of ads should decline.  Instead of three ads with three blanks, that same person would likely post one ad with nine blanks - savings for him, less ads on the site, same number of shopping opportunities for us, and more money for the IAP to keep the lights on and maybe buy some new and improved lights! The IAP is not, and never has been, stagnant.


----------



## dhallnc

maxwell_smart007 said:


> Wow, I'm going crosseyed from reading sixteen pages of posts!  Just a few quick thoughts from my perspective.
> 
> Regarding the "thanks Jeff and mods" - there are more than just the mods and Jeff at work behind the scenes.  There is a team of managers, and everyone had input and put hard work into the development of the classifieds.
> 
> The amount of money and time that goes into this site is evident every time you explore its pages.  All of the time is donated, either by the mods and managers, by individuals like yourselves who come here and post often, and by Jeff himself.  The site isn't listed as a not-for-profit, but its run by volunteers.
> 
> As far as a 'membership fee' goes, I'm vehemently against that.  This is an education site.  Some of us are retired and on fixed income, some are making big bucks, some of us are students with no income, etc.  I do not believe that you should have to pay for your education, but should be free to donate what you think you get out of the site - hence the voluntary contribution idea.  I do not think that this should/will change.
> 
> As far as the classified changes go, it is human nature to not like change, even when the change is for the better.  I complained along with the rest when they put a roundabout in my town, but now that it's in, I see the rationale.  There are reasons behind everything - we didn't make these changes on a whim.
> 
> When you go to a show, your are asked to pay for a booth fee.  This fee is the cost of doing business in the show.  The classifieds now have a booth fee, and it's extremely reasonable. Most posts in the classifieds make far more than five dollars profit - some make thousands.  For the small business - if your business ad doesn't generate five or ten dollars of revenue, then you might want to consider a new business plan - perhaps through consolidating some of your ads into a larger one that's more economical.
> 
> If people are going to leave the IAP because an ad will cost five dollars, then perhaps they're not looking at WHY the IAP is here.  It was not developed as a springboard to a classified or store - it was developed to further and advance penturning through education and discussion.
> 
> This isn't a 'squeeze', but rather asking those who profit from the IAP to begin to help pay for some of the improvements.  The free 'make as much money as you can without even having to give $5 back' model will end soon - I think the new one is reasonable.
> 
> By asking for a reasonable fee to post an ad, the number of ads should decline.  Instead of three ads with three blanks, that same person would likely post one ad with nine blanks - savings for him, less ads on the site, same number of shopping opportunities for us, and more money for the IAP to keep the lights on and maybe buy some new and improved lights! The IAP is not, and never has been, stagnant.



Fee education? You don't have kids in school do you?


----------



## DurocShark

Timebandit said:


> DurocShark said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Steals & Deals forum is intended for selling  single and small  lots of personally owned items. This might be a few  extra kits you  don’t need, a used lathe or tool, some extra blanks, or  similar items  related to pen making.
> 
> 
> 
> AKA: If you're selling to make a profit, you don't belong in S&D. If you're selling because you don't need something any more, then you belong.
> 
> For example, if I were to list my gold flake blanks, I would need to be in the Classifieds. But if I stopped making blanks and were unloading all my casting stuff including left over blanks, I might be ok to be in the S&D after checking with the mods.
> 
> This is, of course, my interpretation of the rules as posted and as discussed in this thread. Hopefully Jeff or Curtis will clarify.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The only reason YOU would have to be in the Classifieds is because YOU are considered a vendor. You MAKE and SELL your blanks through another vendor and you advertise that in your sig line. I do not. I sell blanks and make a profit, but i dont sell blanks as my business to make money. I dont MAKE blanks, and i dont buy wood just to chop it up and sell it. I sell blanks that i need to unload, as you say, that are taking up room in my shop and i dont need them anymore, but i WILL make a profit on them. This does not make me a vendor. Nor does it Alice.
Click to expand...


To be honest, I disagree. But that's not for me to decide...


----------



## LandfillLumber

No matter what your situation if you have a computer and internet your not going hungry and you could donate up to $5 In Michigan I can collect pop bottles in a day to pay the $5(come on its $5).Education has never been free public schools are ran with our tax money.A membership is not a terrible thing.I understand that new people to the site would be put off by it but this is the only down side anyone has posted yet(its a big one though).Maybe a membership that is only good for using the classified ads to buy or sell??Victor


----------



## jeff

rherrell said:


> jeff said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rherrell said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have a problem with the buyers not being able to comment on the item they purchased. Word of mouth is very important to selling something, if people can't comment then how are others going to know if the product is any good or not?
> 
> I know we have the "Vendor Cheers and Jeers" forum but give me a break, nobodys gonna read that! The comments on the product need to be in the sellers ad where prospective buyers can see them first hand and make a decision on whether to buy or not. And besides, you can only run an ad for two weeks so I don't think "bumping" is even going to be an issue.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Would you be ok with negative comments directly in your for sale thread? How about if you can't respond? One of the major complaints about the classifieds has been too much conversation cluttering what's for sale. It seemed unfair to allow no response to negative comments, so we decided on the C&J forum.
> 
> Something I have been tossing around (I have not yet discussed with the mods or mgrs...) is to make sub forums available in Cheers & Jeers for any vendor who wants one. That way people could Point to their own sub forum for reviews.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I would be PERFECTLY HAPPY with negative remarks!!!! I have a good, no GREAT product and I want everybody to know it! If a person is selling s#%t then he DESERVES negative comments.
> I'm not getting rich on what I sell, I do it mostly as a way to stay busy and I also offer a LOW COST alternative for those on a budget. Having to pay every two weeks for an ad will either force me to quit advertising full time or raise my prices... and I'm NOT going to raise my prices.
Click to expand...


Rick, you DO have a great product. I know that first hand :biggrin:

I am sorry that you don't feel you'll be able to advertise as you have. When we set the prices for the forums, we considered a number of things. One was that most serious vendors with a viable business model and who currently advertise constantly for free could afford an extra $130 a year (26 periods x $5). I hope you can find some way in the new scheme of things to continue to bring your excellent products to the membership.


----------



## glycerine

maxwell_smart007 said:


> Wow, I'm going crosseyed from reading sixteen pages of posts!  Just a few quick thoughts from my perspective.
> 
> Regarding the "thanks Jeff and mods" - there are more than just the mods and Jeff at work behind the scenes. There is a team of managers, and everyone had input and put hard work into the development of the classifieds.
> 
> The amount of money and time that goes into this site is evident every time you explore its pages. All of the time is donated, either by the mods and managers, by individuals like yourselves who come here and post often, and by Jeff himself. The site isn't listed as a not-for-profit, but its run by volunteers.
> 
> As far as a 'membership fee' goes, I'm vehemently against that. This is an education site. Some of us are retired and on fixed income, some are making big bucks, some of us are students with no income, etc. I do not believe that you should have to pay for your education, but should be free to donate what you think you get out of the site - hence the voluntary contribution idea. I do not think that this should/will change.
> 
> As far as the classified changes go, it is human nature to not like change, even when the change is for the better. I complained along with the rest when they put a roundabout in my town, but now that it's in, I see the rationale. There are reasons behind everything - we didn't make these changes on a whim.
> 
> When you go to a show, your are asked to pay for a booth fee. This fee is the cost of doing business in the show. The classifieds now have a booth fee, and it's extremely reasonable. Most posts in the classifieds make far more than five dollars profit - some make thousands. For the small business - if your business ad doesn't generate five or ten dollars of revenue, then you might want to consider a new business plan - perhaps through consolidating some of your ads into a larger one that's more economical.
> 
> If people are going to leave the IAP because an ad will cost five dollars, then perhaps they're not looking at WHY the IAP is here. It was not developed as a springboard to a classified or store - it was developed to further and advance penturning through education and discussion.
> 
> This isn't a 'squeeze', but rather asking those who profit from the IAP to begin to help pay for some of the improvements. The free 'make as much money as you can without even having to give $5 back' model will end soon - I think the new one is reasonable.
> 
> By asking for a reasonable fee to post an ad, the number of ads should decline. Instead of three ads with three blanks, that same person would likely post one ad with nine blanks - savings for him, less ads on the site, same number of shopping opportunities for us, and more money for the IAP to keep the lights on and maybe buy some new and improved lights! The IAP is not, and never has been, stagnant.


 
These are my thoughts as well.  As far as I know, the IAP forum was created for sharing info, asking and answering questions.  It has slowly become a business hub.  Some people have gotten a "free ride" for long enough, but I see why there are complaints, and I also see where there really aren't any grounds for those complaints.
Also, I see some people posting in this thread that have only been members for a few months.  That's fine, don't get me wrong, you're free to share your thoughts just as much as I am, but the issues that are being addressed here are not ones that happened over the past few months.  They have been ongoing for quite some time now.  So you're not seeing things the way others are...


----------



## jeff

Dave Turner said:


> Just another suggestion for Jeff and his helpers.
> 
> Have sub-forums in the Premium Classified section. Any vendor that wants to (and can maintain the IAP "seal of approval") can pay an annual fee to obtain their own sub-forum. This sub-forum becomes their own little "store" and each vendor can establish their own rules for how they want to run it within basic guidelines established by penturners.org LLC. If a vendor receives too many substantiated complaints, they are put on probation and, unless they turn things around, their sub-forum gets closed down. I see several benefits of this system:
> 
> 
> 
> I know exactly where to go to find out what the latest IAP specials are for my favorite vendors.
> More flexibility and more responsibility for vendors. They are accountable for what happens on their sub-forum.
> Extra revenue for penturners.org LLC
> Less clutter on the main classified forums from the major vendors.
> If a sub-forum vendor wants to, they can still pay the money for a post in the classified forum alerting people to visit their sub-forum for details on a special.
> You've probably already thought of and discarded this idea for many good reasons. With the limited information I have, it makes sense to me.



We discussed this for a year. It's an interesting idea. However, the small (less than 10) sampling of vendors I contacted wanted more in exchange for their money than I was willing to give. Such as the right to post any number of threads, the right to conduct any discussions, even those not related to their product, and the right to moderate messages in their forums.  I am always open to rethinking ideas I previously discarded, so this is certainly on the table. Another forum I frequent for flashlight geeks uses this concept and it seems successful.


----------



## elody21

I still do not know where my sales now and then fit.
some one says they would be free another says I am a vendor.Jeff, what is your take? I know this is not about me, but for me it is.

Alice


----------



## alphageek

Guys and gals,

I want to make a point that will clarify a lot of the debate and questions, and "thoughts" in the last page or so.  

There was a lot of questions and thoughts about "vendors" and "profit".   Look again at the first 4 sets of rules (the ones specifically about selling).   Vendor doesn't appear a single time and profit only appears once.

This is NOT about who is a vendor and who isn't.    There is still a ton of options and choice here.   I'll use Alice for example (just because I think its a good one to show this).

Alice has a supply of corian that she sells at a very reasonable price.   Focusing on $5 more for selling a box of corian make its seem unreasonable.   However, an occasional ad where she lists that she has 10 boxes available in the $5 section puts the overhead at only 50 cents a box.    I've purchased from her.   I would easily have paid $1 more for the box and it would have still been an incredible deal (for everyone except my mailman!).   Is she a vendor (dunno, don't care, doesn't matter!).   Is it a deal breaker - heck no.  Is what she is selling still a better deal than ANYWHERE I can find - YES.

I really suggest that if you have thoughts for improvement - suggest them... Ask questions...  I think you will figure out this is not really as big of a change as it 'feels'.   Be glad that Jeff is looking for input.  

At least until he gets sick of changing his flameproof suit!


----------



## Chatham PenWorks

LandfillLumber said:


> No matter what your situation if you have a computer and internet your not going hungry and you could donate up to $5 In Michigan I can collect pop bottles in a day to pay the $5(come on its $5).Education has never been free public schools are ran with our tax money.A membership is not a terrible thing.I understand that new people to the site would be put off by it but this is the only down side anyone has posted yet(its a big one though).Maybe a membership that is only good for using the classified ads to buy or sell??Victor



   A membership fee will raise more money, but reading Jeff's comments, that's not the primary reason for the new fee schedule. One would be eliminating the clutter in the classifieds. Any blanket fee would have no effect on this. Another primary reason is so that those that are making a living on the IAP can help foot the bill for running it. A blanket membership fee would spread that over everyone. A blanket classified fee would have the small timers paying as much as the big boys.

   For all the little guys complaining about the fees knocking them out of the game, it's called consolidation. Instead of listing one lot at a time, wait until you have a few. 

   The new rules seem very well thought out, and with a few adjustments to listing style, everyone that sells now should be able to with the new rules. The big problem I'm seeing is that so many are just not willing to make the adjustments. The rules aren't perfect, but how about trying to see how we can work with them, before trashing them?


----------



## elody21

Thank you Dean,
I can live with that! If I have a lot of boxes of the same thing I would be more that happy to pay the $5.00. No problem. If this is accurate it  does clear things up.
Alice




alphageek said:


> Guys and gals,
> 
> I want to make a point that will clarify a lot of the debate and questions, and "thoughts" in the last page or so.
> 
> There was a lot of questions and thoughts about "vendors" and "profit".   Look again at the first 4 sets of rules (the ones specifically about selling).   Vendor doesn't appear a single time and profit only appears once.
> 
> This is NOT about who is a vendor and who isn't.    There is still a ton of options and choice here.   I'll use Alice for example (just because I think its a good one to show this).
> 
> Alice has a supply of corian that she sells at a very reasonable price.   Focusing on $5 more for selling a box of corian make its seem unreasonable.   However, an occasional ad where she lists that she has 10 boxes available in the $5 section puts the overhead at only 50 cents a box.    I've purchased from her.   I would easily have paid $1 more for the box and it would have still been an incredible deal (for everyone except my mailman!).   Is she a vendor (dunno, don't care, doesn't matter!).   Is it a deal breaker - heck no.  Is what she is selling still a better deal than ANYWHERE I can find - YES.
> 
> I really suggest that if you have thoughts for improvement - suggest them... Ask questions...  I think you will figure out this is not really as big of a change as it 'feels'.   Be glad that Jeff is looking for input.
> 
> At least until he gets sick of changing his flameproof suit!


----------



## jeff

elody21 said:


> I still do not know where my sales now and then fit.
> some one says they would be free another says I am a vendor.Jeff, what is your take? I know this is not about me, but for me it is.
> 
> Alice



You need to use Classifieds, or Premium Classifieds if you want people to make posts choosing specific items.

Many of your previous ads have been for full boxes, so I think the regular Classifieds ($5) would be fine. You make the post, people PM you with a request.

The difference between Steals & Deals and the two classifieds forums has nothing to do with WHO you are (i.e. what business type, if any, you are), but rather HOW you sell. If you sell the same stuff repeatedly, you need to use one of the classifieds forums, whether you are an organized business with employees or an individual selling stuff you cast in your basement.


----------



## larryc

19 pages and counting!
If it wasn't for this forum I'd be a lot richer (in money) and a lot poorer in knowledge. Anything that would detract from the fine vendors (anyone that sells) and the great information about both those vendors and about pen turning turns me off.
I would vote for a membership fee!


----------



## chrisk

With different arguments, other colleagues (rherrell, elody21, monolith...) have pointed on this above: with the new system the actual differentiation between individual and business classifieds is totally blurred if not disappearing. With the new system (the reasons for a change are certainly understandable) the big vendors are indirectly favored. My understanding is that this (unintended) result is against the philosophy of this forum and first of all of his owner.

Just a thougth.

That said, I wish to thank all the behind the scenes team who makes all this happen. With this precise discussion going on, they once again prove their openmindedness. Jeff could also say: that's it guys, here are my rules. Instead we all benefit of this exchange.

Apologies for my poor English.

Christos, from the sunny Corinth, Greece.


----------



## Phunky_2003

I don't sell often.  I think I've had 2 classified ads since I've been here.  I planned on running one starting tomorrow, which I think I am going to put on hold until the new ads start.  Just to get a feeling of it.

My thought on the whole thing is this.  I am planning on starting a website selling blanks and such.  I've done a lot of research, running a business is a lot more than making and selling blanks...anyway on to my thought.

I don't have any clue on how others run their business nor is it any of my business.  I will have a set amount for advertising, if I use that running ads here, then I will lose advertising elsewhere.  

What effect does this play with the bash?  I participated in the bash last year, from memory there was quite a few prize donations from those that sell here.  If they are spending 260.00 a year (10.00 x 26) for one ad or 520.00 (10.00 x 26x2) for 2 ads.  That's a lot of money for them to recoup.  Will they still support the bash?

I personally am fine with the changes as far as myself selling.  My concerns will be with the vendors who stop or raise prices to cover added expenses.  I am a hobbyist on a fixed income and purchase most of what I use through IAP.  But if prices are raised I as a hobbyist will have to look elsewhere or be making less pens.


----------



## Chatham PenWorks

Phunky_2003 said:


> I don't sell often.  I think I've had 2 classified ads since I've been here.  I planned on running one starting tomorrow, which I think I am going to put on hold until the new ads start.  Just to get a feeling of it.
> 
> My thought on the whole thing is this.  I am planning on starting a website selling blanks and such.  I've done a lot of research, running a business is a lot more than making and selling blanks...anyway on to my thought.
> 
> I don't have any clue on how others run their business nor is it any of my business.  I will have a set amount for advertising, if I use that running ads here, then I will lose advertising elsewhere.
> 
> What effect does this play with the bash?  I participated in the bash last year, from memory there was quite a few prize donations from those that sell here.  If they are spending 260.00 a year (10.00 x 26) for one ad or 520.00 (10.00 x 26x2) for 2 ads.  That's a lot of money for them to recoup.  Will they still support the bash?
> 
> I personally am fine with the changes as far as myself selling.  My concerns will be with the vendors who stop or raise prices to cover added expenses.  I am a hobbyist on a fixed income and purchase most of what I use through IAP.  But if prices are raised I as a hobbyist will have to look elsewhere or be making less pens.




Take a look at the listings of those you think would really need to use that model listing, and see how much they would be making from those listings. The fee is a small percentage.


----------



## jeff

I'm really surprised at the number of vendors advocating for paid membership. Doesn't that potentially cut down the number of people seeing your ads? I guarantee that for every one person posting here that they'd support a membership fee, there are 10 who would not. Let's say your sales dropped by 20%. Is that more attractive than a classifieds fee?

I'm not considering a membership fee, but I am curious about the logic...


----------



## louie

As mostly a buyer, I have a suggestion about not letting sellers edit posts to mark what is already sold. -- Why can't the seller post the first post two times. The first post would not allowed to be edited, so everyone knows what the original ad looked like. The 2nd post of the thread would be editable by the seller. Seems simple to implement. 

Lou


----------



## jeff

> *Any chance of a paid for membership? Or is that totally off the cards?*



There is no chance for paid membership. That's just not my personal philosophy. If a paid site would be better, one will spring up. 

Folks, you need to understand that we are not instituting paid classifieds because we NEED the money to keep operating. We are net positive by a few hundred dollars a year, and we have money in the bank. If we needed the money to survive, paid memberships might be on the table.

We WANT the extra revenue to (1) help ensure our long-term financial health, (2) do cool things (strengthen our IT infrastructure, run bigger and better contests, support local chapters, institute new programs for generating content, and lots of other things - suggestions always welcome! :biggrin

In my mind, it is perfectly reasonable to ask those who are making a profit by selling here to share some of that with the site. It is unreasonable to expect to make a profit for no cost. (To those of you who argue that you DO have a cost because you've donated to the site -- we have appreciated your support, but if you don't with to donate because you're paying for ads, that's perfectly fine!)

Now, I understand that HOW you make a profit could be at issue. Some of you have made extremely inefficient use of the classifieds. This change might require you to change a bit the way you do business. Maybe you need to post more items at once to reduce the impact on your costs. We are all comfortable with the status quo after 7 years of the way things have been. It's conceivable that some extra effort will be required on your part to reduce the impact of this on your customers and your bottom line. 

I've received a few PMs (and there are postings above) which say "this will put me out of business". It's completely unreasonable to build a business depending on free advertising. I apologize, but there is no way to put this delicately; if you cannot absorb a few dollars to advertise your product for sale, you have an unsustainable business plan. 

If, after thinking about how you could operate successfully in the new scheme of things, you really believe that these changes or the fees will put you out of business, please PM me with some specifics. That is absolutely not the intent, and if that's a widespread situation then indeed this is the wrong approach.


----------



## Smitty37

*Mine would drop to zero*



jeff said:


> I'm really surprised at the number of vendors advocating for paid membership. Doesn't that potentially cut down the number of people seeing your ads? I guarantee that for every one person posting here that they'd support a membership fee, there are 10 who would not. Let's say your sales dropped by 20%. Is that more attractive than a classifieds fee?
> 
> I'm not considering a membership fee, but I am curious about the logic...


 Well I wouldn't pay to be a member - not that I don't enjoy the site (even with my occasional disagreements with the mods) but a general principal.  I don't pay dues or membership fees anywhere that does not have some direct benefit that I require.

The only thing that bothers me is that I occasionally give away or sell at costs items for the various Pens for Troops programs supported by quite a few members.  I'm not sure I like the idea of paying for the privilege of giving something away or selling it at a loss.  But, I can probably find a way to make this work out.


----------



## Phunky_2003

Smitty37 said:


> jeff said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm really surprised at the number of vendors advocating for paid membership. Doesn't that potentially cut down the number of people seeing your ads? I guarantee that for every one person posting here that they'd support a membership fee, there are 10 who would not. Let's say your sales dropped by 20%. Is that more attractive than a classifieds fee?
> 
> I'm not considering a membership fee, but I am curious about the logic...
> 
> 
> 
> Well I wouldn't pay to be a member - not that I don't enjoy the site (even with my occasional disagreements with the mods) but a general principal.  I don't pay dues or membership fees anywhere that does not have some direct benefit that I require.
> 
> The only thing that bothers me is that I occasionally give away or sell at costs items for the various Pens for Troops programs supported by quite a few members.  I'm not sure I like the idea of paying for the privilege of giving something away or selling it at a loss.  But, I can probably find a way to make this work out.
Click to expand...


I believe you could end up posting those in the steals and deals or the free classifieds.  Even though you are a vendor, on that particular ad your not making a profit.  

But I've been wrong before....just ask my wife.  

It would be a good question maybe one of the mods can clarify.


----------



## jeff

Smitty37 said:


> jeff said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm really surprised at the number of vendors advocating for paid membership. Doesn't that potentially cut down the number of people seeing your ads? I guarantee that for every one person posting here that they'd support a membership fee, there are 10 who would not. Let's say your sales dropped by 20%. Is that more attractive than a classifieds fee?
> 
> I'm not considering a membership fee, but I am curious about the logic...
> 
> 
> 
> Well I wouldn't pay to be a member - not that I don't enjoy the site (even with my occasional disagreements with the mods) but a general principal.  I don't pay dues or membership fees anywhere that does not have some direct benefit that I require.
> 
> The only thing that bothers me is that I occasionally give away or sell at costs items for the various Pens for Troops programs supported by quite a few members.  I'm not sure I like the idea of paying for the privilege of giving something away or selling it at a loss.  But, I can probably find a way to make this work out.
Click to expand...


The Trades & Giveaways rules are posted. You CAN give things away for charitable purposes.

If you want to sell something at cost to benefit a charitable cause, PM me and I'll make that happen for you at no cost. I'll add something to the next revision of the rules to cover that.

How's that for problem solving? :biggrin:


----------



## soligen

I'm rather surprized at the subscription support too. Getting new people is the key to any strong organization or association.  Existing members are willing to pay because they know the value, but new members will not - for them it represents risk - money spent for unknown gain.  So I would conclude that membership fees would substantially limit new members.

A lot of advertizing is to get NEW customers.  People who have been turning for a while tend to keep buying from the same people - they know who sells what, and if there isnt a sale going on and they want something, its easy to send a PM to inquire.  For example, if I decided I needed a box of corian, I'm send Alice a PM if she didn't have a sale running.  I've been here long enough to know she sells it.

If Jeff wants a membership fee, I'd pay it without a thought, but I have "vote" against having a fee becasue of the discouragement of new members - I believe it would cause a gradual decline in the IAP


----------



## jeff

louie said:


> As mostly a buyer, I have a suggestion about not letting sellers edit posts to mark what is already sold. -- Why can't the seller post the first post two times. The first post would not allowed to be edited, so everyone knows what the original ad looked like. The 2nd post of the thread would be editable by the seller. Seems simple to implement.
> 
> Lou



I kind of think that another rule would not be well-received :biggrin:

The OP can be edited for 48 hours. We already have rules that say you can't substantially change a post except for updating quantities remaining. The ad should look pretty much identical through the life of the ad.


----------



## Smitty37

*Suits me....*



jeff said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jeff said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm really surprised at the number of vendors advocating for paid membership. Doesn't that potentially cut down the number of people seeing your ads? I guarantee that for every one person posting here that they'd support a membership fee, there are 10 who would not. Let's say your sales dropped by 20%. Is that more attractive than a classifieds fee?
> 
> I'm not considering a membership fee, but I am curious about the logic...
> 
> 
> 
> Well I wouldn't pay to be a member - not that I don't enjoy the site (even with my occasional disagreements with the mods) but a general principal. I don't pay dues or membership fees anywhere that does not have some direct benefit that I require.
> 
> The only thing that bothers me is that I occasionally give away or sell at costs items for the various Pens for Troops programs supported by quite a few members. I'm not sure I like the idea of paying for the privilege of giving something away or selling it at a loss. But, I can probably find a way to make this work out.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The Trades & Giveaways rules are posted. You CAN give things away for charitable purposes.
> 
> If you want to sell something at cost to benefit a charitable cause, PM me and I'll make that happen for you at no cost. I'll add something to the next revision of the rules to cover that.
> 
> How's that for problem solving? :biggrin:
Click to expand...

 That's good - I really do like to help the guys who turn for the Troops and other charaties when I can and this will be of help when I can't afford complete gifts.


----------



## witz1976

jeff said:


> *Any chance of a paid for membership? Or is that totally off the cards?*
> 
> 
> 
> There is no chance for paid membership. That's just not my personal philosophy. If a paid site would be better, one will spring up.
> 
> Folks, you need to understand that we are not instituting paid classifieds because we NEED the money to keep operating. We are net positive by a few hundred dollars a year, and we have money in the bank. If we needed the money to survive, paid memberships might be on the table.
> 
> We WANT the extra revenue to (1) help ensure our long-term financial health, (2) do cool things (strengthen our IT infrastructure, run bigger and better contests, support local chapters, institute new programs for generating content, and lots of other things - suggestions always welcome! :biggrin
> 
> In my mind, it is perfectly reasonable to ask those who are making a profit by selling here to share some of that with the site. It is unreasonable to expect to make a profit for no cost. (To those of you who argue that you DO have a cost because you've donated to the site -- we have appreciated your support, but if you don't with to donate because you're paying for ads, that's perfectly fine!)
> 
> Now, I understand that HOW you make a profit could be at issue. Some of you have made extremely inefficient use of the classifieds. This change might require you to change a bit the way you do business. Maybe you need to post more items at once to reduce the impact on your costs. We are all comfortable with the status quo after 7 years of the way things have been. It's conceivable that some extra effort will be required on your part to reduce the impact of this on your customers and your bottom line.
> 
> I've received a few PMs (and there are postings above) which say "this will put me out of business". It's completely unreasonable to build a business depending on free advertising. *I apologize, but there is no way to put this delicately; if you cannot absorb a few dollars to advertise your product for sale, you have an unsustainable business plan.
> *
> If, after thinking about how you could operate successfully in the new scheme of things, you really believe that these changes or the fees will put you out of business, please PM me with some specifics. That is absolutely not the intent, and if that's a widespread situation then indeed this is the wrong approach.
Click to expand...


Well said Jeff, although I would like to add that advertising should be part of your pricing.  If you are selling items for a profit and do not take into consideration of ALL of your operating costs (this includes advertising) then guess what, you will go out of business.  

For the people who only sell a few items at a time I am typically included in this bunch) wait till you have more than 3 or 4 items to list, or use the free classified section to dump it and make back what you paid for it.  

I clearly see ways that people can still be generous to each other in terms of deals, while at the same time reducing the clutter of multiple posts.  

Respectfully submitted,


----------



## babyblues

I think a separate IAP Marketplace is a great idea. These changes are a good step towards that.


----------



## elody21

Just to be clear.
If I use the $5.00 post I can put several things up for sale for the $5.00?
Alice


----------



## glycerine

Yeah, it seems the point of this is to have those "profiteers" :wink: pay for the service of being allowed to sell through the site.  A paid membership would make EVERYONE pay.
And I thought alot of this sprung up because some are annoyed with the blatant advertising strung all throughout the forums.  If a paid membership were instituted and nothing else changed, then members would have to then PAY to still see those annoying advertisements...


----------



## Smitty37

*Paid Membership*

OK - maybe I am just dumb - my IQ ain't what it was a few years ago - probably down to about 140 or so now - but I fail to see or understand exactly what problem Jeff would be trying to solve if he instituted the paid memberships some have suggested.  Even given all of the bantering back and forth from those in favor and those opposed - I still don't understand. 

It also seems that since Jeff has said rather clearly that he is not going to institute them, the whole issue seems a bit moot.


----------



## Monty

elody21 said:


> Just to be clear.
> If I use the $5.00 post I can put several things up for sale for the $5.00?
> Alice


It's my understanding you can have 1 or 100 items if the same thing for sale in the regular classifieds for $5. The limiting factor is a maximum of 5 photos and only one ad per week, and one followup post per week by you.


----------



## elody21

Thanks Monty,
So a full box of corian is one item?
Alice


----------



## jeff

elody21 said:


> Just to be clear.
> If I use the $5.00 post I can put several things up for sale for the $5.00?
> Alice



Alice,

You sure can. The only limit is 5 photos. If you can fit 50 items in a photo, that's fine. The only catch is that buyers can't make "claiming posts" in the $5 forum. They'd have to send you a PM.

So for items like wood blanks, where people want to pick a specific one, the Premium Classifieds are more suitable, as people can post to claim specific items and everyone else can see immediately what's taken. You can still sell blanks in the $5 forum and people can claim them by PM, but you'd need to use one of your weekly followup posts (or "X" a photo) to show what's left.

In your case, where blanks of a certain type of Corian are mostly the same, for example, you probably would not need that. You could post photos of a typical box you'd be putting together, and people could PM that they want one.

Hope that helps!


----------



## maxwell_smart007

Yes, a full box of corian would be an item - but you're mostly limited by the number of photos (and still confined by the size of the photos - that hasn't changed).  You can still sell a boxfull, or you could sell individual pieces of corian provided that you don't go over the photo limit. 

BUT - If you require claiming posts, you have to use the premium classifieds.  If you want to conduct business via your own website, PM or email, then the regular classifieds would suffice.


----------



## jeff

Monty said:


> elody21 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just to be clear.
> If I use the $5.00 post I can put several things up for sale for the $5.00?
> Alice
> 
> 
> 
> It's my understanding you can have 1 or 100 items if the same thing for sale in the regular classifieds for $5. The limiting factor is a maximum of 5 photos and only one ad per week, and one followup post per week by you.
Click to expand...


There is no limit on the number of ads per week. The limit is one ad running at a time. Ads CAN run for two weeks, and one followup by the seller per week is allowed.

If someone wants to place 5 ads a day, that's fine as long as the last one is closed before a new one is placed.

EDIT: Here's the verbiage from the rules post: 

*Frequency of Ads:* You may post as many ads as you wish in both the Classifieds and Premium Classifieds forums as long as you do not exceed the number of simultaneous ads allowed.


----------



## MesquiteMan

Alice, your current ad would fit into the $5 classifieds regardless of how many of those boxes you sell.  Your current ad does not say how many you have available and it is irrelevant in the $5 section.  You could even offer 100 boxes of Red blanks, 75 boxes of blue blanks, 12 boxes of black blanks, 90 boxes of green blanks, and 10 boxes of gold blanks in that section.  Then, people would need to PM you to buy rather than post in the thread and you would be allowed to use your allotted updates to tell what is left, etc.


----------



## MesquiteMan

jeff said:


> If someone wants to place 5 ads a day, that's fine as long as the last one is closed before a new one is placed.



And as long as the ad is closed which means it has to be reported closed and moved by the moderators before you can start a new one.


----------



## Smitty37

*Answers to questions*



glycerine said:


> Yeah, it seems the point of this is to have those "profiteers" :wink: pay for the service of being allowed to sell through the site. A paid membership would make EVERYONE pay.
> And I thought alot of this sprung up because some are annoyed with the blatant advertising strung all throughout the forums. If a paid membership were instituted and nothing else changed, then members would have to then PAY to still see those annoying advertisements...


 
When a member asks a question that begins "Where is the best place to buy..." or "Who makes the best...? How does he/she get an honest answer from anyone without "advertising". If I am selling product X and I happen to think product X is the best (and I might sell it because I've used it and do think it's the best) how can I answer the question "Who sells the best product X?" without it being an advertisment.

And my personal favorite "Who has the lowest prices for product X?" Answer - We (vendors that is) all do just ask any of us. 

I see several such questions being asked each day here and they are not being asked by the vendors. Those questions are inviting vendors to comment. Then their comment is called "blatant advertising". 

Under the new rules - because I both buy from and sell to several vendors on this site, I am going to be prohibited from commenting on their products even though as a decent business man I wouldn't be buying from them if they were selling junk and even though I know they are selling their products to members retail below what you can buy them for "wholesale" from the nations leading wholesaler.


----------



## MesquiteMan

Smitty37 said:


> I see several such questions being asked each day here and they are not being asked by the vendors.  Those questions are inviting vendors to comment.



And will no longer be allowed to be answered by the vendor that sells it.


----------



## ed4copies

Yes, and when some of us reply, Smitty, other members hit the yellow triangle to complain about us advertising--

So, the rules are changed to make the "complaining members" happier.

Squeaky wheel---


----------



## jeff

Smitty37 said:


> glycerine said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, it seems the point of this is to have those "profiteers" :wink: pay for the service of being allowed to sell through the site. A paid membership would make EVERYONE pay.
> And I thought alot of this sprung up because some are annoyed with the blatant advertising strung all throughout the forums. If a paid membership were instituted and nothing else changed, then members would have to then PAY to still see those annoying advertisements...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When a member asks a question that begins "Where is the best place to buy..." or "Who makes the best...? How does he/she get an honest answer from anyone without "advertising". If I am selling product X and I happen to think product X is the best (and I might sell it because I've used it and do think it's the best) how can I answer the question "Who sells the best product X?" without it being an advertisment.
> 
> And my personal favorite "Who has the lowest prices for product X?" Answer - We (vendors that is) all do just ask any of us.
> 
> I see several such questions being asked each day here and they are not being asked by the vendors. Those questions are inviting vendors to comment.  Then their comment is called "blatant advertising".
> 
> Under the new rules - because I both buy from and sell to several vendors on this site, I am going to be prohibited from commenting on their products even though as a decent business man I wouldn't be buying from them if they were selling junk.
Click to expand...


The honest answer comes from a customer. 

If you sell it, you can't pitch it outside the classifieds.

Of all the issues with advertising, marketing, etc. at the site, the #1 gripe is that vendors are pitching their stuff outside the classifieds.

I thought that the rules about product references were clear. Help me figure out what to add (or take away!) to make them crystal clear.

EDIT: It's my belief that about 95% of the active members don't sell anything. Another few percent sell stuff they make. The other maybe 1% have complicated relationships with multiple vendors, partners, suppliers, manufacturers, consultants, etc., and probably should refrain from wading into murky waters. In your example, the people you're buying from who run great businesses and sell top-notch stuff. They must have lots of customers at IAP who can give them glowing reviews.

I am NOT saying that the 1% with multi-pronged business relationships CAN'T comment. They can, but they should be extra careful to not to look like they're pumping up a vendor with whom they are involved. Sometimes, the benefits of a position required extra scruples. As a civil servant with a certain type of job, I have more ethics compliance to worry about than the average fed. I'm happy with my compensation and I behave. As a vendor selling to our population here, you're being compensated with profits, so a little extra care in maintaining a scrupulous appearance isn't much to ask, is it?


----------



## DocStram

ed4copies said:


> Yes, and when some of us reply, Smitty, other members hit the yellow triangle to complain about us advertising--
> 
> So, the rules are changed to make the "complaining members" happier.
> 
> Squeaky wheel---



Actually, ed, the rules are changed to make things more ethical.


----------



## Smitty37

*I didn't mean that to sound like a complaint*



jeff said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> glycerine said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, it seems the point of this is to have those "profiteers" :wink: pay for the service of being allowed to sell through the site. A paid membership would make EVERYONE pay.
> And I thought alot of this sprung up because some are annoyed with the blatant advertising strung all throughout the forums. If a paid membership were instituted and nothing else changed, then members would have to then PAY to still see those annoying advertisements...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When a member asks a question that begins "Where is the best place to buy..." or "Who makes the best...? How does he/she get an honest answer from anyone without "advertising". If I am selling product X and I happen to think product X is the best (and I might sell it because I've used it and do think it's the best) how can I answer the question "Who sells the best product X?" without it being an advertisment.
> 
> And my personal favorite "Who has the lowest prices for product X?" Answer - We (vendors that is) all do just ask any of us.
> 
> I see several such questions being asked each day here and they are not being asked by the vendors. Those questions are inviting vendors to comment. Then their comment is called "blatant advertising".
> 
> Under the new rules - because I both buy from and sell to several vendors on this site, I am going to be prohibited from commenting on their products even though as a decent business man I wouldn't be buying from them if they were selling junk.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The honest answer comes from a customer.
> 
> If you sell it, you can't pitch it outside the classifieds.
> 
> Of all the issues with advertising, marketing, etc. at the site, the #1 gripe is that vendors are pitching their stuff outside the classifieds.
> 
> I thought that the rules about product references were clear. Help me figure out what to add (or take away!) to make them crystal clear.
> 
> EDIT: It's my belief that about 95% of the active members don't sell anything. Another few percent sell stuff they make. The other maybe 1% have complicated relationships with multiple vendors, partners, suppliers, manufacturers, consultants, etc., and probably should refrain from wading into murky waters. In your example, the people you're buying from who run great businesses and sell top-notch stuff. They must have lots of customers at IAP who can give them glowing reviews.
> 
> I am NOT saying that the 1% with multi-pronged business relationships CAN'T comment. They can, but they should be extra careful to not to look like they're pumping up a vendor with whom they are involved. Sometimes, the benefits of a position required extra scruples. As a civil servant with a certain type of job, I have more ethics compliance to worry about than the average fed. I'm happy with my compensation and I behave. As a vendor selling to our population here, you're being compensated with profits, so a little extra care in maintaining a scrupulous appearance isn't much to ask, is it?
Click to expand...

 
I apologize, something must have come out wrong there.  I was commenting more on what I thought made the new rule necessary than on the rule itself - I'm fine with that.  

Where I see the potential for problems arising is when someone asks a technical question or describes a technical problem that can really only be answered by the selling vendor - only no one really knows who that is.
For instance, I had a customer (who thankfully contacted me rather than publish his problem on the site) who had assembled 3 pens from kit's I had sold him and was convinced all three had bad transmissions.  The solution was simply that he was not installing the transmission properly and when I told him what he had to do, he did it and problem fixed.  

If he had raised that question in a forum here - I will guarantee he would have gotten a half a dozen different answers, all wrong and my products would have gotten bashed all over the place for being cheap junk.   Under the new rules I wouldn't even be able to come in and state what the problem was and that it was fixed.

Kind of long winded, but that is what I perceive will be a problem under the new rules.  I wish I could think of a way to address it and still maintain what you are trying to do with the new rule.  Perhaps more moderation - but I really think those guys have enough to do already.


----------



## glycerine

Smitty37 said:


> glycerine said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, it seems the point of this is to have those "profiteers" :wink: pay for the service of being allowed to sell through the site. A paid membership would make EVERYONE pay.
> And I thought alot of this sprung up because some are annoyed with the blatant advertising strung all throughout the forums. If a paid membership were instituted and nothing else changed, then members would have to then PAY to still see those annoying advertisements...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When a member asks a question that begins "Where is the best place to buy..." or "Who makes the best...? How does he/she get an honest answer from anyone without "advertising". If I am selling product X and I happen to think product X is the best (and I might sell it because I've used it and do think it's the best) how can I answer the question "Who sells the best product X?" without it being an advertisment.
> 
> And my personal favorite "Who has the lowest prices for product X?" Answer - We (vendors that is) all do just ask any of us.
> 
> I see several such questions being asked each day here and they are not being asked by the vendors. Those questions are inviting vendors to comment. Then their comment is called "blatant advertising".
> 
> Under the new rules - because I both buy from and sell to several vendors on this site, I am going to be prohibited from commenting on their products even though as a decent business man I wouldn't be buying from them if they were selling junk and even though I know they are selling their products to members retail below what you can buy them for "wholesale" from the nations leading wholesaler.
Click to expand...

 
I'm trying to remain unbiased and look at both sides here. I'm not sure what all of the complaints have been, but in this case I think part of the issue is, are they GETTING an honest answer? Of course, they will get multiple answers from multiple people, and they are all opinions, and that's exactly what the "asker" is looking for. But some "answerers" will be biased toward their own product. 
When I am shopping for a product, whether it be a car, or a pair of shoes, I do my research, and I look for reviews from current or previous users of that product. Of course I will read the manufacturer's or seller's description of the item, but will not base my assessment of that product's quality or reliability based on info from the manufacturer or seller...


----------



## ed4copies

Which came first?

I have bought and sold thousands of "kits", from 1995-2009ish.  In 2008, Dawn started Exotics.  In 2010, we started selling pen kits.

So, I PICKED the kits we sell---I am the car dealer OWNER, as well as the salesman.  Smitty picked the kits he sells (in some cases they are made to HIS specifications).  We each spend more on kits than you spent on your last car.  

But, you don't want to hear from us??  Because what we say is an OPINION???  That is your prerogative, but it is interesting how many people used to say they benefit from my input and now, it is no longer valuable, unless confined to an advertisement.

I understand why these rules are being adopted.  I just think a small group of people is removing valuable information from a much larger group.  The "silent majority" said nothing, cause they were happy.

Those who were unhappy motivated change.

So be it.


----------



## Dave Turner

Just another idea for Jeff et. al. that's probably been considered and discarded, but here it goes:

It seems many of the perceived problems arise from the behavior of the forum-style format. New posts cause a thread to be bumped to the top of the forum list. For sellers, top is good, so some may figure out creative ways to keep their thread near the top of the forum list. Since you will be monetizing the premium classified forum, why not set up a model where several threads (about 10 or so initially - this can be altered depending on demand) maintain a fixed position at the top of the list , just like the stickies. Sellers have the option to pay a significant surcharge to have their ad placed in one of these fixed slots for its two week run. If there is heavy demand for these slots, those who have not utilized a fixed slot the longest would be given priority - to give everyone a fair chance at the top slots.

Basically, you will be paying more for better ad placement.


----------



## witz1976

ed4copies said:


> Which came first?
> 
> I have bought and sold thousands of "kits", from 1995-2009ish.  In 2008, Dawn started Exotics.  In 2010, we started selling pen kits.
> 
> So, I PICKED the kits we sell---I am the car dealer OWNER, as well as the salesman.  Smitty picked the kits he sells (in some cases they are made to HIS specifications).  We each spend more on kits than you spent on your last car.
> 
> But, you don't want to hear from us??  Because what we say is an OPINION???  That is your prerogative, but it is interesting *how many people used to say they benefit from my input *and now, it is no longer valuable, unless confined to an advertisement.
> 
> I understand why these rules are being adopted.  I just think a small group of people is removing valuable information from a much larger group.  *The "silent majority" said nothing, cause they were happy.*
> 
> Those who were unhappy motivated change.
> 
> So be it.



Well I am one of those "silent majority" as I get tired of all the whining and complaining, I try not to add the large amount of BS that flies around this place at times.  

Ed, you are one of the most knowledgeable people here on the forum, unfortunately the list of people seems to get smaller and smaller every day as more and more people are becoming lurkers, sick of the whining and complaining.  

I find it shameful that you are forced to censor yourself because certain people feel you are out only to sell, not give free advice.  This statement goes to all the vendors as I think about it...  I consider this a part of SERVICE!  Something most people complain no longer exsists, but when someone tries it is called selling.  Pitiful.


----------



## elody21

Ok,
I think I finally understand where I will fall when the change happens.
Thank you everyone for explaining it so patiently!
Alice


----------



## soligen

Smitty37 said:


> Where I see the potential for problems arising is when someone asks a technical question or describes a technical problem that can really only be answered by the selling vendor - only no one really knows who that is.
> For instance, I had a customer (who thankfully contacted me rather than publish his problem on the site) who had assembled 3 pens from kit's I had sold him and was convinced all three had bad transmissions. The solution was simply that he was not installing the transmission properly and when I told him what he had to do, he did it and problem fixed.
> 
> If he had raised that question in a forum here - I will guarantee he would have gotten a half a dozen different answers, all wrong and my products would have gotten bashed all over the place for being cheap junk. Under the new rules I wouldn't even be able to come in and state what the problem was and that it was fixed.


 
Smitty, I think this is allowed. Here is the rule

You can participate in threads in the general forums where your products are being discussed, provide helpful advice, and respond to most questions about them. 

You just cant say you sell it.


----------



## Timebandit

soligen said:


> Smitty, I think this is allowed. Here is the rule
> 
> You can participate in threads in the general forums where your products are being discussed, provide helpful advice, and respond to most questions about them.
> 
> You just cant say you sell it.



Thank you Dennis. I think a lot of people need to go back and read the rules CAREFULLY. In no way is any of that advertising. Just dont say that you sell it.


----------



## MesquiteMan

Soligen is absolutely correct.  You guys are reading too much into these rules that are just not there.  You are certainly able to answer questions and correct misinformation.  You just are not allowed to go on and tell the world that you sell such and such.  When this happens, many times, the thread turns into a discussion about other items that vendor sells and then the vendor comes back and provides more information and sometimes even takes it a step to far and tells everyone that they also provide another product.  This rule is designed to stop the advertising, perceived or real, and that is it.  It is real simple to answer questions without constantly telling folks you sell it.  Remember, you still have your signature so every time you answer a question, you ARE advertising within the rules and for free.


----------



## DurocShark

Timebandit said:


> soligen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Smitty, I think this is allowed. Here is the rule
> 
> You can participate in threads in the general forums where your products are being discussed, provide helpful advice, and respond to most questions about them.
> 
> You just cant say you sell it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you Dennis. I think a lot of people need to go back and read the rules CAREFULLY. In no way is any of that advertising. Just dont say that you sell it.
Click to expand...

Then, unless the vendor is known as the seller, his advice (which would be considered expert if he is known as the seller) gets lost in the noise?

Granted, a direct communication would get the individual the answer, but then all the other users miss out. 

I have a hard time with this rule (can ya tell? :wink


----------



## Monolith

jeff said:


> The difference between Steals & Deals and the two classifieds forums has nothing to do with WHO you are (i.e. what business type, if any, you are), but rather HOW you sell. If you sell the same stuff repeatedly, you need to use one of the classifieds forums, whether you are an organized business with employees or an individual selling stuff you cast in your basement.



That's probably worth putting in one of the rule threads in the new classifieds section.


----------



## OLDMAN5050

AS I read the first post on this thread about the charge to post a classified add and the money would allow the forum to do other things. OK my question :
#1 what other things? how is the money going to be used?
#2 where is the money kept and whom has access to the money?
Also if a vendor repeats an ad after the 2 week period shouldn't that vendor get a discount if he just continues the came add.


----------



## Timebandit

DurocShark said:


> Timebandit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> soligen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Smitty, I think this is allowed. Here is the rule
> 
> You can participate in threads in the general forums where your products are being discussed, provide helpful advice, and respond to most questions about them.
> 
> You just cant say you sell it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you Dennis. I think a lot of people need to go back and read the rules CAREFULLY. In no way is any of that advertising. Just dont say that you sell it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Then, unless the vendor is known as the seller, his advice (which would be considered expert if he is known as the seller) gets lost in the noise?
> 
> Granted, a direct communication would get the individual the answer, but then all the other users miss out.
> 
> I have a hard time with this rule (can ya tell? :wink
Click to expand...


Which he can with his sig line. You do it with yours do you not? You make it Blatently clear that you make the Leaf Blanks, It says "My Leaf Blanks at so and so", so i dont see where the problem is. There is no way that if you answered a question for me about a blank that i bought from so and so and you responded, i would immediatly know that you are the maker of said blanks.


----------



## glycerine

ed4copies said:


> Which came first?
> 
> I have bought and sold thousands of "kits", from 1995-2009ish. In 2008, Dawn started Exotics. In 2010, we started selling pen kits.
> 
> So, I PICKED the kits we sell---I am the car dealer OWNER, as well as the salesman. Smitty picked the kits he sells (in some cases they are made to HIS specifications). We each spend more on kits than you spent on your last car.
> 
> But, you don't want to hear from us?? Because what we say is an OPINION??? That is your prerogative, but it is interesting how many people used to say they benefit from my input and now, it is no longer valuable, unless confined to an advertisement.
> 
> I understand why these rules are being adopted. I just think a small group of people is removing valuable information from a much larger group. The "silent majority" said nothing, cause they were happy.
> 
> Those who were unhappy motivated change.
> 
> So be it.


 
Apparently, you don't know what kind of car I drive :wink:.  
I didn't say I didn't want to HEAR from the seller, but I will not make a buying decision BASED on WHAT I hear from the seller.  Don't take it personally, this is me commenting on how MYSELF as a BUYER makes decisions, speaking in general.  I'm not claiming that every buyer is like me or that every seller is like you (and Dawn or Smitty...).


----------



## LandfillLumber

So the money is not even needed to run the site?Donations have done it so far?The money is going to be used for contests that anyone can enter and that the vendors flip the bill for,this gets me back to a membership.A mebership is not even an option as Jeff has said,but is it fair for the vendors to provide all the money to support these contests?I'm no longer a vendor on the IAP my wood is a better fit for other type turners not so much pen guys,and hard to keep up with all the great casting and such going on by all the members.Membership would weed out those one time posters and I think the iAP has a reputation to draw in people even if they have to pay.We are talking a tiny amount of money really.So what about vendor memberships?They can be by the month or what have you,it just seems $5 and $10 per is a lot of money.But I will stop with the membership,memberships to turn into resources.Victor


----------



## soligen

jeff said:


> IPD_Mrs said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Comment & Questions from Cheers/Veers forum:*
> 
> 
> *Rules: *
> 
> You may not comment on the same vendor more than once per year.
> What if you have made a great comment with a vendor based on your first experience with said company and then the next time and the next (until you give up) you are getting LOUSY treatment/products etc. Don't we as a community want that kind of follow up information? This will allow the unscrupulous individuals that exist in any community to take advantage of more members than if folks are allowed to post their experiences on a more frequent basis (not weekly, or even monthly perhpas but once a quarter would make some sense). Alternatively I guess I would be holding my thoughts about any vendor until I have done business with that person several times - which also hurts the community since new members will be put in a position where it will be nearly impossible to build any type of reputation or suppport in a timely fashion.
> 
> 
> Do not advertise for another vendor in a review about a different vendor.
> You may not start a thread or comment in a thread discussing a vendor with which you have any business relationship other than as customer.
> What constitutes "any business relationship"? Does money or product have to exchange hands? Does it count as a business relationship if you are consulting with a vendor to assist them in a project? IE someone helping a vendor set up a shopping cart ... financial planning? etc.
> 
> *You may not start a thread or comment in a thread discussing a vendor if you are legally related to, or cohabitate with, any employee of, officer of, or supplier to that business.*
> 
> *S*o if you have a "relationship" with a supplier of a product sold to Vendor A and you see a post on Vendor A about a product that you personally bought from that Vendor that has NOTHING to do with the fact that you are living with or related to a DIFFERENT SUPPLIER to that Vendor you can't say a word in any post? IE: Because Pepsi sells products to Shell stations the Wife/girlfriend of a Pepsi truck driver can't make any statement on what great prices on Gas the Shell station has????
> 
> - really think this needs clarified as it appears the beginning of the statement makes the relationship/comment status apply to all (employee, officer or SUPPLIER of any given vendor). If we are going to remove comments by ANYONE that is related to ANY supplier/employee etc then I think we need to make that cross the board with all vendors - however not all relationships are always known so how do we Honestly Moderate this?
> 
> 
> Thanks for clarifications.
> Linda
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'd consider changing that to quarterly.
> 
> "Business Relationship" means an exchange of things of value with or without a contract.
> 
> You made my point with the Shell/Pepsi analogy. Girlfriend mentions the great prices at the Shell station, Shell station gets more customers, Shell station sells proportionately more Pepsi, boyfriend gets overtime to deliver more Pepsi, girlfriend gets nicer jewelry for her birthday.
> 
> That's a stretch of course, but I think you see my point.
> 
> Here's a clearer example. Let's say the wife of a supplier of Widget A to IPD is a member. She bought Widget B from IPD and comments positively about her experience with IPD. That drives more people to IPD, and then they see you featuring Widget A on your site. You'll sell more of those because the wife of the supplier has driven traffic to your site.
> 
> I think you understand what I'm trying to prevent here. What change would you propose?
> 
> 99% of the members have no relationship to any vendors other than as customers. It's their cheers and jeers we want.
Click to expand...

 
Post 174


jeff said:


> ....
> Rick, you DO have a great product. I know that first hand.
> 
> ....


 
I'm not trying to nitpic - this just struck my sometimes odd sense of humor, and I thought it good to point something out.

As soon as Rick buys a thread, Jeff could not make this comment without violating his own rules, becasue they have a business relationship - services were provided for a fee. Comlimenting any vendor helps that vendor success, which drives more classified thread sales.

I just thought everyone should be aware that the entire IAP team has sacraficed their ability to comment on vendor products in order to make rules they believe will make a better IAP.

Not only do the give a lot, they give up a lot - Kudos to the team!


----------



## ed4copies

Several of my friends have pointed out that I can say what I wish, I just have to be careful about not saying "Exotics".

I really have not, apparently, read the rules thoroughly enough.  I will abide by them---and I will make a better effort to KNOW what is there.  Thanks specifically to Curtis for the answer above and to Dawn for sticking the page of rules in my face!!!


----------



## Haynie

Wow.  Whatever did people do with their time before the internet?  Yes I read the entire post but from an academic stand point.  I have always been interested in how people interact.  There is a nice, interesting cross section of people here.

Is this Jeff guy married, have a family, a significant other, a life partner (Who am I to judge)?  If so I think the IAP owes them a nice dinner out.  Not a nice pen.  Something outside the scope of the forum.


----------



## MesquiteMan

Did you not see Jeff's post?  There will NOT be any membership.  It is against his philosophy as to how the site is ran.  Remember, this site is his house and you can go by his rules or go visit someone else if you don't like his rules.

This is not directed at anyone in particular:

As for the money, again, that is none of anyone's business except Jeff's.  When you are invited over to a friends house for a party and they tell you to bring chips and beer to help with the cost of the party, do you question what that friend does with the leftover beer and chips?  Oh yeah, you just happen to own a convenience store and you are also going to be allowed to sell chips and beer at the party so now you are upset because you are asked to donate some chips and beer?



LandfillLumber said:


> So the money is not even needed to run the site?Donations have done it so far?The money is going to be used for contests that anyone can enter and that the vendors flip the bill for,this gets me back to a membership.A mebership is not even an option as Jeff has said,but is it fair for the vendors to provide all the money to support these contests?I'm no longer a vendor on the IAP my wood is a better fit for other type turners not so much pen guys,and hard to keep up with all the great casting and such going on by all the members.Membership would weed out those one time posters and I think the iAP has a reputation to draw in people even if they have to pay.We are talking a tiny amount of money really.So what about vendor memberships?They can be by the month or what have you,it just seems $5 and $10 per is a lot of money.But I will stop with the membership,memberships to turn into resources.Victor


----------



## MesquiteMan

soligen said:


> I'm not trying to nitpic - this just struck my sometimes odd sense of humor, and I thought it good to point something out.
> 
> As soon as Rick buys a thread, Jeff could not make this comment without violating his own rules, becasue they have a business relationship - services were provided for a fee. Comlimenting any vendor helps that vendor success, which drives more classified thread sales.
> 
> I just thought everyone should be aware that the entire IAP team has sacraficed their ability to comment on vendor products in order to make rules they believe will make a better IAP.
> 
> Not only do the give a lot, they give up a lot - Kudos to the team!



Except that Jeff is the boss and can do whatever the heck he wants and the mods and managers do not have any financial interest or see any financial gain from IAP.  Actually, as mods, all we really get are flames and griping for simple things such as moving a thread from one forum to another!


----------



## maxwell_smart007

Jeff would be allowed to freely comment in the vendor cheers and jeers forum about the product - that's the reason that forum was created...

A place for everything, and everything in it's place...


----------



## maxwell_smart007

Curtis, I think we should have a 'Mod for a Day' promotion, so people can see what fun it is!  We'd have to clear out room in the Moderator Mansion in Oahu, however, and put all of the gold plated dishes in the game room to make room...

Nah, forget it - I like the game room the way it is! :biggrin:


----------



## MesquiteMan

Andrew, you may have come up with a good idea for punishment for repeat offenders...make them be a moderator for a day!


----------



## OLDMAN5050

As a member of this forum I beleive all members have the right to know how these funds collected for the classified ads are used , this is a non profit forum.... I have no problem in following  the rules. But as we know all orginzations have to let its members know where the money is. how it is being used and so forth.
This is a great place to learn , to make freinds , to meet and talk with like minded folk, to share things that we have and I sure do hate to see it turn into any thing else I will hate to see members leave...................Curtis it is our busines where and how the funds are used.........


----------



## NewLondon88

maxwell_smart007 said:


> Curtis, I think we should have a 'Mod for a Day' promotion, so people can see what fun it is!  We'd have to clear out room in the Moderator Mansion in Oahu, however, and put all of the gold plated dishes in the game room to make room...



Be careful with those gold dishes.. you know how they always make
divots in the foosball players heads and the Hand And Foot Staff has to 
hand carve new ones  And you know how the dancing girls love the mods 
who play foosball in the Mansion. Just put the dishes over by the
"Whack-A-Post" game and they'll be fine.


----------



## alphageek

OLDMAN5050 said:


> As a member of this forum I beleive all members have the right to know how these funds collected for the classified ads are used , this is a non profit forum.... I have no problem in following  the rules. But as we know all orginzations have to let its members know where the money is. how it is being used and so forth.
> This is a great place to learn , to make freinds , to meet and talk with like minded folk, to share things that we have and I sure do hate to see it turn into any thing else I will hate to see members leave...................Curtis it is our busines where and how the funds are used.........



This has been asked and answered - It is NOT any members business.  IAP is NOT a non-profit.   Jeff is the sole owner of the IAP.   Check out the links at the bottom of the page.   Calling something an organization does not make it a non-profit.


----------



## SCR0LL3R

Of course if Jeff wanted to make a few bucks, that's certainly within  his rights... but I don't think that's what he is going for. So that  being the case, these are my thoughts on the matter.

At first we were led to believe this was to cover the costs of running the site because donations weren't covering it. But now it has been made clear it is for special events and the to protect the long term survivability of the website... I am sure a clever fundraiser would generate an increase in donations if you think it necessary to have a little more in the forum's bank account. And wouldn't it be better for people who want to participate in a special event to foot the bill for said event rather than the ones buying from the classifieds. (The small vendors are going to pass that cost directly to the buyer and maybe the big ones will as well.)

I dunno, I think the prices for ads are rather high (especially $10) and now I see it's not even really to maintain the site which I think is fine in it's current state. 

Wouldn't having only the premium classifieds and lowering the fee to $5 be enough? That would simplify things, it would provide revenue for the site, be a little more cost effective for buyers and sellers and it would still force people to group more into 1 single thread. Also, allowing more photos if they are hosted off site would save on bandwidth too.


----------



## NewLondon88

SCR0LL3R said:


> Also, allowing more photos if they are hosted off site would save on bandwidth too.



If I understand it, this rule was a direct result of someone doing a 
Bait & Switch (offering a premium product and providing an inferior one,
then changing the photos off-site to reflect the product that was shipped)


----------



## alphageek

NewLondon88 said:


> SCR0LL3R said:
> 
> 
> 
> Also, allowing more photos if they are hosted off site would save on bandwidth too.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If I understand it, this rule was a direct result of someone doing a
> Bait & Switch (offering a premium product and providing an inferior one,
> then changing the photos off-site to reflect the product that was shipped)
Click to expand...


There is also another, entirely simpler answer.   There is a desire to keep photos to under a specific size for a couple of valid reasons.   By requiring those photos be done on IAP, the photos must be inside the right specs so that is one less item for the moderators to have to manage because the software does it for them.


----------



## NewLondon88

alphageek said:


> There is also another, entirely simpler answer.   There is a desire to keep photos to under a specific size for a couple of valid reasons.   By requiring those photos be done on IAP, the photos must be inside the right specs so that is one less item for the moderators to have to manage because the software does it for them.



Yeah. Or that. :tongue:


----------



## LandfillLumber

I saw his post about the membership.Did you read my post as I mention how he is against it  and how I would stop talking about it?Unless I read this post wrong seems you have an attitude about it all.Maybe I read to much between the lines like some others do on the site,lol.I also would not have an issue if the person took the left overs back home after the party,thats just me.I thought the site was mainly for information purpose not making money,but the our motives change in life(not saying this is the case,but could be.Also if you are going to say this is not directed at anyone you should not attach a members post to it.I will still make a donation to the IAP whne I can,but the IAP will not get vendor money from me.As I said before I stopped selling over a year ago so not a big deal all the new laws for me,but the site is moving in the direction of Ebay that is what I think.Victor

Oh and I will not add anymore posts to this thing that are not constructive in someway to the IAP.Sorry



MesquiteMan said:


> Did you not see Jeff's post?  There will NOT be any membership.  It is against his philosophy as to how the site is ran.  Remember, this site is his house and you can go by his rules or go visit someone else if you don't like his rules.
> 
> This is not directed at anyone in particular:
> 
> As for the money, again, that is none of anyone's business except Jeff's.  When you are invited over to a friends house for a party and they tell you to bring chips and beer to help with the cost of the party, do you question what that friend does with the leftover beer and chips?  Oh yeah, you just happen to own a convenience store and you are also going to be allowed to sell chips and beer at the party so now you are upset because you are asked to donate some chips and beer?
> 
> 
> 
> LandfillLumber said:
> 
> 
> 
> So the money is not even needed to run the site?Donations have done it so far?The money is going to be used for contests that anyone can enter and that the vendors flip the bill for,this gets me back to a membership.A mebership is not even an option as Jeff has said,but is it fair for the vendors to provide all the money to support these contests?I'm no longer a vendor on the IAP my wood is a better fit for other type turners not so much pen guys,and hard to keep up with all the great casting and such going on by all the members.Membership would weed out those one time posters and I think the iAP has a reputation to draw in people even if they have to pay.We are talking a tiny amount of money really.So what about vendor memberships?They can be by the month or what have you,it just seems $5 and $10 per is a lot of money.But I will stop with the membership,memberships to turn into resources.Victor
Click to expand...


----------



## MesquiteMan

Victor, The first part of my post was directed to your constant suggestion that we charge a membership fee.  As I said, that is not going to happen and charging for the classifieds IS going to happen.  We are open to ideas to tweak it but the charging part is a done deal.  If you want to use the classifieds at IAP, the free lunch is over for the most part.  If you don't then that is fine.  There have been way too many folks who have been eating that free lunch and not even bothering to say hi while they were here.


----------



## DozerMite

LandfillLumber said:


> I saw his post about the membership.Did you read my post as I mention how he is against it and how I would stop talking about it?Unless I read this post wrong seems you have an attitude about it all.Maybe I read to much between the lines like some others do on the site,lol.I also would not have an issue if the person took the left overs back home after the party,thats just me.I thought the site was mainly for information purpose not making money,but the our motives change in life(not saying this is the case,but could be.Also if you are going to say this is not directed at anyone you should not attach a members post to it.I will still make a donation to the IAP whne I can,but the IAP will not get vendor money from me.As I said before I stopped selling over a year ago so not a big deal all the new laws for me,but the site is moving in the direction of Ebay that is what I think.Victor
> 
> Oh and I will not add anymore posts to this thing that are not constructive in someway to the IAP.Sorry


 


???...  http://www.penturners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=84723
and http://www.penturners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=82790 and http://www.penturners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=82793 and it goes on...


----------



## Smitty37

*not all*



Timebandit said:


> DurocShark said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Timebandit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> soligen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Smitty, I think this is allowed. Here is the rule
> 
> You can participate in threads in the general forums where your products are being discussed, provide helpful advice, and respond to most questions about them.
> 
> You just cant say you sell it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you Dennis. I think a lot of people need to go back and read the rules CAREFULLY. In no way is any of that advertising. Just dont say that you sell it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Then, unless the vendor is known as the seller, his advice (which would be considered expert if he is known as the seller) gets lost in the noise?
> 
> Granted, a direct communication would get the individual the answer, but then all the other users miss out.
> 
> I have a hard time with this rule (can ya tell? :wink
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Which he can with his sig line. You do it with yours do you not? You make it Blatently clear that you make the Leaf Blanks, It says "My Leaf Blanks at so and so", so i dont see where the problem is. There is no way that if you answered a question for me about a blank that i bought from so and so and you responded, i would immediatly know that you are the maker of said blanks.
Click to expand...

 
I tend to acknowledge a higher power with my signature line - I don't advertise my products just a link to my store.


----------



## jeff

elody21 said:


> Ok,
> I think I finally understand where I will fall when the change happens.
> Thank you everyone for explaining it so patiently!
> Alice



Happy to help! By the way, I am still drawing on the nice box of Corian and Avonite you sent me a couple years ago. I made my daughter's mother-in-law a pen for her kitchen which happens to have the same color Corian counters as a blank you sent me. She loved it!


----------



## Smitty37

*New Smitty rule*



MesquiteMan said:


> soligen said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not trying to nitpic - this just struck my sometimes odd sense of humor, and I thought it good to point something out.
> 
> As soon as Rick buys a thread, Jeff could not make this comment without violating his own rules, becasue they have a business relationship - services were provided for a fee. Comlimenting any vendor helps that vendor success, which drives more classified thread sales.
> 
> I just thought everyone should be aware that the entire IAP team has sacraficed their ability to comment on vendor products in order to make rules they believe will make a better IAP.
> 
> Not only do the give a lot, they give up a lot - Kudos to the team!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Except that Jeff is the boss and can do whatever the heck he wants and the mods and managers do not have any financial interest or see any financial gain from IAP. Actually, as mods, all we really get are flames and griping for simple things such as moving a thread from one forum to another!
Click to expand...

Egad you mean there are others --- you guys always seem to act like I was the only one....:biggrin:


----------



## dtswebb

I made it to the end of this thread.  As my reward for the headache I've managed to develop, here's my thoughts -

(1) All the moderators deserve a real big thanks for keeping this site as informative and fun as it is.
(2) I'm strictly a buyer and the rule changes have me a little worried, but I'm willing to see how it all shakes out before saying I either like the new format or hate the new format.
(3) I know how much I spend with some of the others here; the $5 or $10 shouldn't impact anyone selling items.
(4) If people want to pay a membership fee, they can - it's called a donation and the button is there to use.
(5) I've particpated in all of Smitty's pre-production buys.  I would really like to see this continue as I've been able to purchase some kits that no one else carries or will likely carry in my lifetime.
(6) I appreciate having a place to express my thoughts.

Matthew


----------



## LandfillLumber

Okay i do have to defend myself not sure why against the people I'm doing it,lol.From those three ads I ran I made a net profit of about $45-48 and I also donated $20 to the IAP.So your point of the post was that I have just used the ads to no end and I'm full of BS.Funny how many ads did I run in the last year 6-10 I used to post that in a week or two so like I said I hardly use the ads anymore(if you had read my other posts,but you did not).So your point was again??????Just not sure what it was????The attitude is really over the top on all this its just a discussion and is very healthy for the IAP.Not sure how I got to be a bad guy all the sudden,but its not the first time my skin is thick.Love the site still,Victor





DozerMite said:


> LandfillLumber said:
> 
> 
> 
> I saw his post about the membership.Did you read my post as I mention how he is against it and how I would stop talking about it?Unless I read this post wrong seems you have an attitude about it all.Maybe I read to much between the lines like some others do on the site,lol.I also would not have an issue if the person took the left overs back home after the party,thats just me.I thought the site was mainly for information purpose not making money,but the our motives change in life(not saying this is the case,but could be.Also if you are going to say this is not directed at anyone you should not attach a members post to it.I will still make a donation to the IAP whne I can,but the IAP will not get vendor money from me.As I said before I stopped selling over a year ago so not a big deal all the new laws for me,but the site is moving in the direction of Ebay that is what I think.Victor
> 
> Oh and I will not add anymore posts to this thing that are not constructive in someway to the IAP.Sorry
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ???...  http://www.penturners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=84723
> and http://www.penturners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=82790 and http://www.penturners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=82793 and it goes on...
Click to expand...


----------



## Gin N' Tonic

MesquiteMan said:


> soligen said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not trying to nitpic - this just struck my sometimes odd sense of humor, and I thought it good to point something out.
> 
> As soon as Rick buys a thread, Jeff could not make this comment without violating his own rules, becasue they have a business relationship - services were provided for a fee. Comlimenting any vendor helps that vendor success, which drives more classified thread sales.
> 
> I just thought everyone should be aware that the entire IAP team has sacraficed their ability to comment on vendor products in order to make rules they believe will make a better IAP.
> 
> Not only do the give a lot, they give up a lot - Kudos to the team!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Except that Jeff is the boss and can do whatever the heck he wants and the mods and managers do not have any financial interest or see any financial gain from IAP.  Actually, as mods, all we really get are flames and griping for simple things such as moving a thread from one forum to another!
Click to expand...



Curtis,

You are my friend, and I consider you to be a good friend but I must respectfully disagree with you here.

In my opinion, most of the mods or managers DO have financial interest in the IAP because they are also vendors who make a considerable amount of money from selling to the members of this site.


----------



## MesquiteMan

Victor, who said you were a bad guy?  I don't see where anyone has.  The only thing I see is where you were saying I had an attitude about all this which is not the case.  It is what it is and that is that!


----------



## clapiana

wow was i late to the party! and my head really hurts after reading this thread and i will reread it again this week. 

my 5 cents being a newbee:

i have been truely impressed with how IAP is run and the community. i have been on "boards" since my commodore vic20 days and ran a wildcat bbs many years before the web appeared and the IAP is a shining star in my eyes and the best no questions asked. i believe the whole pen turning community as a whole would also agree. jeff leads this place and i trust his judgment because of not what i think but because of what i have seen. his track record speaks volumes that he is concerned about this place and is not out to make money. if this changed he understans the community would also change and he is very protective of this community and so are many many others not because of the classifieds but because of the community. people know this place as home.

if the IAP team feels this is the new direction lets go! and see what happens. a change is needed because they have obviously thought this through but they are still open to a thread like this weeks before the change? amazing. an announcment could have showed up on a fri before the change went live on a monday but again this IAP. voices are being raised above and changes are already being considered because the mods listen and good grief that is a thankless job. hmmm thank you mods.

this IAP team has a vision on what has to happen now to get it to an even better place in the future. if things didnt go as planned which they never do then some tweaking takes place to hit the intent of this change. again i am all for it.

blessings!
craig

ps
i also feel that the buys that smitty has done like the daycom high end kits are of great value and the model is easy and works well. trying to coordinate this offsite wouldnt fly in my eyes. maybe another specific forum for this type buying or flag it as this type under the bulk buying thread?

memberships for vendors in the prem section might have a place but ads dont. ads make lots of money and money changes people and that type of change is what i feel is alarming everybody above. the model i have read above wont make people rich but it is long over due so IAP can also benefit which is only fair. its taken almost a decade to show up think about that for a minute.

i like the idea of bumping being allowed in the prem add section. claiming blanks is a no brainer? is providing shipping info for a group of people legit? what are other legit bumps in the prem classifieds.

the prem ads will do well not so sure about the $5 per post concept we will see. having rotating stickes of premium vendors in this section might work and maybe help lower or even eliminate that fee?

any thoughts on adding an auction thread with a fee?

i would rather pay via check and have it on account to be able to place an add in that it saves more money for IAP but i understand paypal makes things much easier on the back end.


----------



## MesquiteMan

And I still disagree with you!  Let me clarify.  The MODS and MANAGERS have no financial benefit from IAP due to their positions within IAP.  Some Mods and Managers, as members, sell stuff on IAP.  I think I have ran one ad in the last year and it did not even have prices in it.  It was to introduce a new product and direct folks to my website where all the financial transaction took place.  I won't pretend that I don't need IAP, that is not the case.  I get a lot of traffic from IAP on my website even though I don't advertise here very often.  

However, as the head moderator here, I do not benefit in any way financially from IAP.  I don't get paid, I don't get perks, I don't get special Christmas Cards from the boss, (actually I don't even get any Christmas Cards form the boss!), I don't get free tickets to any of the raffles or drawings, I will not even get discounts on the advertising once the new rules go into effect.  I will have to pay full price just like anyone else.



Gin N' Tonic said:


> MesquiteMan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> soligen said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not trying to nitpic - this just struck my sometimes odd sense of humor, and I thought it good to point something out.
> 
> As soon as Rick buys a thread, Jeff could not make this comment without violating his own rules, becasue they have a business relationship - services were provided for a fee. Comlimenting any vendor helps that vendor success, which drives more classified thread sales.
> 
> I just thought everyone should be aware that the entire IAP team has sacraficed their ability to comment on vendor products in order to make rules they believe will make a better IAP.
> 
> Not only do the give a lot, they give up a lot - Kudos to the team!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Except that Jeff is the boss and can do whatever the heck he wants and the mods and managers do not have any financial interest or see any financial gain from IAP.  Actually, as mods, all we really get are flames and griping for simple things such as moving a thread from one forum to another!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Curtis,
> 
> You are my friend, and I consider you to be a good friend but I must respectfully disagree with you here.
> 
> In my opinion, most of the mods or managers DO have financial interest in the IAP because they are also vendors who make a considerable amount of money from selling to the members of this site.
Click to expand...


----------



## Texatdurango

jeff said:


> ...... You can still sell blanks in the $5 forum and people can claim them by PM, but you'd need to use one of your weekly followup posts (or "X" a photo) to show what's left.


 
Jeff or anyone actually,

This is probably the only scenario that would apply to me if I ever decide to cut one of my burls into blanks again so I have a question......

I pay my $5, place the ad with a couple small photos with blanks numbered 1 - 10.  People can visit the ad and send a PM saying they want blanks 3, 6 and 9, etc.  That I finally understand, but how often can I change the photos by re-uploading updated photos with little red "X's" showing what's sold or what's left?  Can I update the photos once a day, twice a day or once a week, is there a limit that I might have missed?

Thanks


----------



## greenmtnguy

As a sometimes vendor, I believe sellers miss a few valuable points. We have a specific target group and they are here on this forum. A classified ad in a newspaper hits random interests and is a crap shoot. In my area 5-10$ doesn't buy a lot of advertising and there are no photos in the paper. When I post an ad here, I know everyone that looks at the ad has an interest of some sort. Maybe price is wrong or it is not for me, but they looked. If I don't have the cost of the ad covered in profit, I am fooling myself by believing the ad is a good idea in the first place. Sure I will miss free posting, but there is no free lunch. Running a business costs money. How many vendors figure in the cost of driving to the P.O to mail product-Time and fuel are a definite cost unless your time is worth nothing and your fuel is free. If running a forum with no membership fee is such a money maker, why isn't the internet loaded with more hugely financial successful pen forums? The classifieds will either prosper or die a slow death and life will go on. I will be here to see either. Onward Jeff and don't forget my dividend check next month. Ok, I am done throwing my logs on the fire.


----------



## MesquiteMan

Guys, believe me, the paid classifieds and new advertising rules are better than what Jeff wanted to do at the beginning of the year.  That was to shut down the classifieds all together due to all the headaches and trouble it has caused both him and the moderator team.  These rules were developed over a period of at least 6 months and had input from the 5 managers and 3 moderators.  This is not something we threw together haphazardly.  The goal is not to make money from IAP.  It is to reduce the amount of advertising, thus helping us re-focus on our core mission and that never included being a marketplace, and to generate extra funds for things Jeff wants to do for IAP such as better prizes for contest, support for local chapters, upgrades to hosting services, upgrades to software, etc..  No one, not even Jeff, will profit from the classifieds charges.  Every single penny will be used for IAP and IAP related expenses.


----------



## Smitty37

*Don't misunderstand...*



Timebandit said:


> soligen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Smitty, I think this is allowed. Here is the rule
> 
> You can participate in threads in the general forums where your products are being discussed, provide helpful advice, and respond to most questions about them.
> 
> You just cant say you sell it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you Dennis. I think a lot of people need to go back and read the rules CAREFULLY. In no way is any of that advertising. Just dont say that you sell it.
Click to expand...

 
I stated what I think is going to be a potential problem area.  I still see it that way.  The problem is going to be that if misinformation is entered about one of my products I will not be able to correct it without saying I sell the product.

An example.  I sell product A, I have sold a couple of thousand of them.

Member posts a valid complaint.

I can't say "Hey just send it back to me and I'll replace it".  Only the seller could make that statement.  So I would violate the spirit if not the letter of the rule.  

I'd still resolve the issue....but I have seen what can happen in threads that start out just like that.  In the end the seller comes out to be a "low life thief and a dog robber besides"


----------



## jeff

Texatdurango said:


> jeff said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...... You can still sell blanks in the $5 forum and people can claim them by PM, but you'd need to use one of your weekly followup posts (or "X" a photo) to show what's left.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jeff or anyone actually,
> 
> This is probably the only scenario that would apply to me if I ever decide to cut one of my burls into blanks again so I have a question......
> 
> I pay my $5, place the ad with a couple small photos with blanks numbered 1 - 10.  People can visit the ad and send a PM saying they want blanks 3, 6 and 9, etc.  That I finally understand, but how often can I change the photos by re-uploading updated photos with little red "X's" showing what's sold or what's left?  Can I update the photos once a day, twice a day or once a week, is there a limit that I might have missed?
> 
> Thanks
Click to expand...


George

As the rules are currently written, you cannot change the photos. However, based on good suggestions from a couple people, we're going to change the rules to allow "Xing" of photos. It's a nice way to see what's left.

The idea behind not being able to change the photos was to help avoid the situation we've previously encountered where a bit of bait and switch (or delete the evidence) had occurred. 

Now a related issue is that currently the edit time limit is 48 hours. It used to be longer, but now and then we get a guy who stomps off, and on his way out the door deletes a bunch of his postings. That just wrecks the flow of threads, especially when the guy is the thread starter. There is also the situation where someone drops a bunch of nastiness in a post, then decides a couple days later he should not have done that, and he goes back in to delete the evidence. 

There is a mod for the forum which allows edit time limits to be set on a per-forum basis. I have hesitated to install that for a couple of technical reasons, but it might be a valuable thing to have now that editing the OP in the classifieds would be quite helpful. I'll look into that and report back!

Hope that answers the question.


----------



## jeff

greenmtnguy said:


> As a sometimes vendor, I believe sellers miss a few valuable points. We have a specific target group and they are here on this forum. A classified ad in a newspaper hits random interests and is a crap shoot. In my area 5-10$ doesn't buy a lot of advertising and there are no photos in the paper. When I post an ad here, I know everyone that looks at the ad has an interest of some sort. Maybe price is wrong or it is not for me, but they looked. If I don't have the cost of the ad covered in profit, I am fooling myself by believing the ad is a good idea in the first place. Sure I will miss free posting, but there is no free lunch. Running a business costs money. How many vendors figure in the cost of driving to the P.O to mail product-Time and fuel are a definite cost unless your time is worth nothing and your fuel is free. If running a forum with no membership fee is such a money maker, why isn't the internet loaded with more hugely financial successful pen forums? The classifieds will either prosper or die a slow death and life will go on. I will be here to see either. Onward Jeff and don't forget my dividend check next month. Ok, I am done throwing my logs on the fire.



Thanks, Alton. I appreciate your thoughts.


----------



## MesquiteMan

Oh, and for anyone who thinks the fees are too high, consider this.

Take a look at this thread.  I AM NOT PICKING ON VICTOR, it is just a convenient thread I found that was linked in this thread.
http://www.penturners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=82790
He had a total of $305 worth of merchandise sold in this thread.  Under the new rules, he could have used the Premium Classifieds at at cost of $10.  Selling the same on E-bay under one add for it all, his fees would have been $17.14 assuming he gets the e-bay top rater seller discount.  That makes IAP $7.14 cheaper on this transaction and your fees go to further the goals of IAP and provide direct benefit to you as a member instead of lining E-bay and their shareholder's pockets!


----------



## Timebandit

Smitty37 said:


> Timebandit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DurocShark said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Timebandit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> soligen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Smitty, I think this is allowed. Here is the rule
> 
> You can participate in threads in the general forums where your products are being discussed, provide helpful advice, and respond to most questions about them.
> 
> You just cant say you sell it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you Dennis. I think a lot of people need to go back and read the rules CAREFULLY. In no way is any of that advertising. Just dont say that you sell it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Then, unless the vendor is known as the seller, his advice (which would be considered expert if he is known as the seller) gets lost in the noise?
> 
> Granted, a direct communication would get the individual the answer, but then all the other users miss out.
> 
> I have a hard time with this rule (can ya tell? :wink
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Which he can with his sig line. You do it with yours do you not? You make it Blatently clear that you make the Leaf Blanks, It says "My Leaf Blanks at so and so", so i dont see where the problem is. There is no way that if you answered a question for me about a blank that i bought from so and so and you responded, i would immediatly know that you are the maker of said blanks.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I tend to acknowledge a higher power with my signature line - I don't advertise my products just a link to my store.
Click to expand...


Wasnt speaking about you Smitty. :wink::biggrin:


----------



## clapiana

"As a sometimes vendor, I believe sellers miss a few valuable points. We have a specific target group and they are here on this forum. A classified ad in a newspaper hits random interests and is a crap shoot. In my area 5-10$ doesn't buy a lot of advertising and there are no photos in the paper. When I post an ad here, I know everyone that looks at the ad has an interest of some sort. "


a very good point.


----------



## Smitty37

*I was covered....*



Timebandit said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Timebandit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DurocShark said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Timebandit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> soligen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Smitty, I think this is allowed. Here is the rule
> 
> You can participate in threads in the general forums where your products are being discussed, provide helpful advice, and respond to most questions about them.
> 
> You just cant say you sell it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you Dennis. I think a lot of people need to go back and read the rules CAREFULLY. In no way is any of that advertising. Just dont say that you sell it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Then, unless the vendor is known as the seller, his advice (which would be considered expert if he is known as the seller) gets lost in the noise?
> 
> Granted, a direct communication would get the individual the answer, but then all the other users miss out.
> 
> I have a hard time with this rule (can ya tell? :wink
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Which he can with his sig line. You do it with yours do you not? You make it Blatently clear that you make the Leaf Blanks, It says "My Leaf Blanks at so and so", so i dont see where the problem is. There is no way that if you answered a question for me about a blank that i bought from so and so and you responded, i would immediatly know that you are the maker of said blanks.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I tend to acknowledge a higher power with my signature line - I don't advertise my products just a link to my store.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Wasnt speaking about you Smitty. :wink::biggrin:
Click to expand...

 I know you were not referring to me specifically but I'm in the same category.  Some of us do not advertise products in our sig line.


----------



## 1dweeb

Jeff and staff - thank you all for providing a place where we can go for information and toys to feed our addiction. I have been a lurker, a poster, a buyer and occasionally a seller. If I have to pay to sell something to other like minded people, I am okay with that. I usually use the adds to find items that are not available just anywhere. I will keep looking at the adds so I hope the people out there keep posting. This is the place that we pen turners come to for inspiration and support in our hobby or business whichever the case may be. I for one appreciate this site and all who participate. Thanks again.


----------



## Gin N' Tonic

You're kidding right?

As I read your post I see that you have a signature line that links to your web site. Again, In my opinion the fact that you have a link in your signature line I feel that you are advertising with each and every post. I guess that since all of the financial transactions took place off site you try to make me believe your statement but I would counter by saying that if you did not have a link in your signature line I suspect you would have a LOT LESS traffic on your site and less traffic usually translated to less sales, therefore you would see less financial gain.

Sorry Curtis, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

I'm not saying that you should not link to your site in the signature line because any member has that right and it would be ridiculous to deny mods or managers the same rights as all other members but as "head moderator" I cannot put you on my ignore list  and therefore I cannot "turn you off". I realize that I have the ability to turn off all signatures buy why should I have to? Given these facts, In my opinion, you cannot make me believe that you do not get any perks or benefit financially in any way especially since you just posted, and I quote

" I won't pretend that I don't need IAP, that is not the case.  I get a lot of traffic from IAP on my website even though I don't advertise here very often. "

Therefore, We'll just have to agree to disagree and chalk it up to looking at it from different points of view. 






MesquiteMan said:


> And I still disagree with you!  Let me clarify.  The MODS and MANAGERS have no financial benefit from IAP due to their positions within IAP.  Some Mods and Managers, as members, sell stuff on IAP.  I think I have ran one ad in the last year and it did not even have prices in it.  It was to introduce a new product and direct folks to my website where all the financial transaction took place.  I won't pretend that I don't need IAP, that is not the case.  I get a lot of traffic from IAP on my website even though I don't advertise here very often.
> 
> However, as the head moderator here, I do not benefit in any way financially from IAP.  I don't get paid, I don't get perks, I don't get special Christmas Cards from the boss, (actually I don't even get any Christmas Cards form the boss!), I don't get free tickets to any of the raffles or drawings, I will not even get discounts on the advertising once the new rules go into effect.  I will have to pay full price just like anyone else.
> 
> 
> 
> Gin N' Tonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MesquiteMan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> soligen said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not trying to nitpic - this just struck my sometimes odd sense of humor, and I thought it good to point something out.
> 
> As soon as Rick buys a thread, Jeff could not make this comment without violating his own rules, becasue they have a business relationship - services were provided for a fee. Comlimenting any vendor helps that vendor success, which drives more classified thread sales.
> 
> I just thought everyone should be aware that the entire IAP team has sacraficed their ability to comment on vendor products in order to make rules they believe will make a better IAP.
> 
> Not only do the give a lot, they give up a lot - Kudos to the team!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Except that Jeff is the boss and can do whatever the heck he wants and the mods and managers do not have any financial interest or see any financial gain from IAP.  Actually, as mods, all we really get are flames and griping for simple things such as moving a thread from one forum to another!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Curtis,
> 
> You are my friend, and I consider you to be a good friend but I must respectfully disagree with you here.
> 
> In my opinion, most of the mods or managers DO have financial interest in the IAP because they are also vendors who make a considerable amount of money from selling to the members of this site.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## DurocShark

Timebandit said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Timebandit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DurocShark said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Timebandit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> soligen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Smitty, I think this is allowed. Here is the rule
> 
> You can participate in threads in the general forums where your products are being discussed, provide helpful advice, and respond to most questions about them.
> 
> You just cant say you sell it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you Dennis. I think a lot of people need to go back and read the rules CAREFULLY. In no way is any of that advertising. Just dont say that you sell it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Then, unless the vendor is known as the seller, his advice (which would be considered expert if he is known as the seller) gets lost in the noise?
> 
> Granted, a direct communication would get the individual the answer, but then all the other users miss out.
> 
> I have a hard time with this rule (can ya tell? :wink
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Which he can with his sig line. You do it with yours do you not? You make it Blatently clear that you make the Leaf Blanks, It says "My Leaf Blanks at so and so", so i dont see where the problem is. There is no way that if you answered a question for me about a blank that i bought from so and so and you responded, i would immediatly know that you are the maker of said blanks.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I tend to acknowledge a higher power with my signature line - I don't advertise my products just a link to my store.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Wasnt speaking about you Smitty. :wink::biggrin:
Click to expand...


What is or isn't in my sig isn't relevant. Sigs change. And to be honest, I doubt many sales were made because of my sig. 

About sigs, Ed mentioned the idea of paying to have your product/site/whatever in your sig. I kinda like that idea and would support it if that happened. 

I don't know why Timebandit has jumped on my arse about this... I keep reading the rules, and re-reading the posts by Curtis and Jeff and there's a lot of mud still in the way. So I'm trying to clear things up to my mind, if nobody else's. 

Crap, I'm not even a retail seller here. Why am I even bothering?


----------



## Timebandit

Smitty37 said:


> Timebandit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> soligen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Smitty, I think this is allowed. Here is the rule
> 
> You can participate in threads in the general forums where your products are being discussed, provide helpful advice, and respond to most questions about them.
> 
> You just cant say you sell it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you Dennis. I think a lot of people need to go back and read the rules CAREFULLY. In no way is any of that advertising. Just dont say that you sell it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I stated what I think is going to be a potential problem area.  I still see it that way.  The problem is going to be that if misinformation is entered about one of my products I will not be able to correct it without saying I sell the product.
> 
> An example.  I sell product A, I have sold a couple of thousand of them.
> 
> Member posts a valid complaint.
> 
> I can't say "Hey just send it back to me and I'll replace it".  Only the seller could make that statement.  So I would violate the spirit if not the letter of the rule.
> 
> I'd still resolve the issue....but I have seen what can happen in threads that start out just like that.  In the end the seller comes out to be a "low life thief and a dog robber besides"
Click to expand...


Smitty, i have never bought anything from you. But if i did, or any other vendor, or individual for that matter, i would PM you about a problem i had with your product. I would in NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM post a thread asking anyone other than you what the problem is and how to fix it. Anyone who knows who they bought there product from, has a problem with said product, and decides to start a thread on IAP to figure it out, rather than PM you, the source of the product, is going about things the wrong way. I understand your complaint, but the people posting these threads just need to think a little more.

Not only that, but you have quite a good reputation around here, and i think you know you have a lot of people on your side, as you can see by all the people fighting for the "Smitty Rule" so i dont think one bad apple on IAP is going to make you look bad among the bunch. I dont think you think enough of your reputation here.


----------



## jeff

Smitty37 said:


> Timebandit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> soligen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Smitty, I think this is allowed. Here is the rule
> 
> You can participate in threads in the general forums where your products are being discussed, provide helpful advice, and respond to most questions about them.
> 
> You just cant say you sell it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you Dennis. I think a lot of people need to go back and read the rules CAREFULLY. In no way is any of that advertising. Just dont say that you sell it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I stated what I think is going to be a potential problem area.  I still see it that way.  The problem is going to be that if misinformation is entered about one of my products I will not be able to correct it without saying I sell the product.
> 
> An example.  I sell product A, I have sold a couple of thousand of them.
> 
> Member posts a valid complaint.
> 
> I can't say "Hey just send it back to me and I'll replace it".  Only the seller could make that statement.  So I would violate the spirit if not the letter of the rule.
> 
> I'd still resolve the issue....but I have seen what can happen in threads that start out just like that.  In the end the seller comes out to be a "low life thief and a dog robber besides"
Click to expand...


You could PM him "Hey just send it back to me and I'll replace it". If he's a decent guy, he'll post that the situation is resolved.

I don't see how there would be an issue of correcting misinformation. 

The idea here is simple. To the maximum extent practical, confine true advertising to the classifieds. We have people who in the general forums post all kinds of stuff that is clearly intended to get people to make the purchase. Use the classifieds to get people to buy your stuff. Nothing wrong with providing helpful information in the general forums.

I'm sorry that the rules are difficult to digest. Unfortunately they had to be written considering the behavior of relatively few members. Some people will push right to the limit, or over, then complain when others do the same thing. That creates an antagonistic environment and is extremely annoying and time-consuming for me and the mods. It had to stop. Most of the DOC rules were written to legislate simple good behavior. 

I consider our vendors to be some of the most experienced and valuable members we have. I want to encourage their participation while limiting the marketing nature of discussions outside the classifieds. 

Off my soapbox now, I'll add that we want to improve the rules, so specific suggestions for intent and wording are welcome. PM me if you like.


----------



## MesquiteMan

Gin N' Tonic said:


> You're kidding right?
> 
> As I read your post I see that you have a signature line that links to your web site. Again, In my opinion the fact that you have a link in your signature line I feel that you are advertising with each and every post. I guess that since all of the financial transactions took place off site you try to make me believe your statement but I would counter by saying that if you did not have a link in your signature line I suspect you would have a LOT LESS traffic on your site and less traffic usually translated to less sales, therefore you would see less financial gain.
> 
> Sorry Curtis, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
> 
> I'm not saying that you should not link to your site in the signature line because any member has that right and it would be ridiculous to deny mods or managers the same rights as all other members but as "head moderator" I cannot put you on my ignore list  and therefore I cannot "turn you off". I realize that I have the ability to turn off all signatures buy why should I have to? Given these facts, In my opinion, you cannot make me believe that you do not get any perks or benefit financially in any way especially since you just posted, and I quote
> 
> " I won't pretend that I don't need IAP, that is not the case.  I get a lot of traffic from IAP on my website even though I don't advertise here very often. "
> 
> Therefore, We'll just have to agree to disagree and chalk it up to looking at it from different points of view.



Never denied that I don't make money from the exposure I have as a member on IAP.  I had the same exposure BEFORE I became the head moderator.  However, I do not make money by being part of the IAP management or moderation team.  That was my point.  And yes, I am fully aware that I am advertising my website every time I post on IAP.  About 50% of my business is from IAP members.  The remainder is from Google searches, word of mouth, and other forums I participate in.


----------



## jeff

Hi Scott,

I think what Curtis intended to convey (and he's correct) is that the mods and managers do not have any financial interest or see any financial gain from IAP *any more than any other member.*

Yes, Curtis gets traffic from his sig. So can any other member. 

Nice to see you visiting. Hope all is well with you!



Gin N' Tonic said:


> You're kidding right?
> 
> As I read your post I see that you have a signature line that links to your web site. Again, In my opinion the fact that you have a link in your signature line I feel that you are advertising with each and every post. I guess that since all of the financial transactions took place off site you try to make me believe your statement but I would counter by saying that if you did not have a link in your signature line I suspect you would have a LOT LESS traffic on your site and less traffic usually translated to less sales, therefore you would see less financial gain.
> 
> Sorry Curtis, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
> 
> I'm not saying that you should not link to your site in the signature line because any member has that right and it would be ridiculous to deny mods or managers the same rights as all other members but as "head moderator" I cannot put you on my ignore list  and therefore I cannot "turn you off". I realize that I have the ability to turn off all signatures buy why should I have to? Given these facts, In my opinion, you cannot make me believe that you do not get any perks or benefit financially in any way especially since you just posted, and I quote
> 
> " I won't pretend that I don't need IAP, that is not the case.  I get a lot of traffic from IAP on my website even though I don't advertise here very often. "
> 
> Therefore, We'll just have to agree to disagree and chalk it up to looking at it from different points of view.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MesquiteMan said:
> 
> 
> 
> And I still disagree with you!  Let me clarify.  The MODS and MANAGERS have no financial benefit from IAP due to their positions within IAP.  Some Mods and Managers, as members, sell stuff on IAP.  I think I have ran one ad in the last year and it did not even have prices in it.  It was to introduce a new product and direct folks to my website where all the financial transaction took place.  I won't pretend that I don't need IAP, that is not the case.  I get a lot of traffic from IAP on my website even though I don't advertise here very often.
> 
> However, as the head moderator here, I do not benefit in any way financially from IAP.  I don't get paid, I don't get perks, I don't get special Christmas Cards from the boss, (actually I don't even get any Christmas Cards form the boss!), I don't get free tickets to any of the raffles or drawings, I will not even get discounts on the advertising once the new rules go into effect.  I will have to pay full price just like anyone else.
> 
> 
> 
> Gin N' Tonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MesquiteMan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> soligen said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not trying to nitpic - this just struck my sometimes odd sense of humor, and I thought it good to point something out.
> 
> As soon as Rick buys a thread, Jeff could not make this comment without violating his own rules, becasue they have a business relationship - services were provided for a fee. Comlimenting any vendor helps that vendor success, which drives more classified thread sales.
> 
> I just thought everyone should be aware that the entire IAP team has sacraficed their ability to comment on vendor products in order to make rules they believe will make a better IAP.
> 
> Not only do the give a lot, they give up a lot - Kudos to the team!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Except that Jeff is the boss and can do whatever the heck he wants and the mods and managers do not have any financial interest or see any financial gain from IAP.  Actually, as mods, all we really get are flames and griping for simple things such as moving a thread from one forum to another!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Curtis,
> 
> You are my friend, and I consider you to be a good friend but I must respectfully disagree with you here.
> 
> In my opinion, most of the mods or managers DO have financial interest in the IAP because they are also vendors who make a considerable amount of money from selling to the members of this site.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## IPD_Mrs

jeff said:


> IPD_Mrs said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Comment & Questions from Cheers/Veers forum:*
> 
> *Rules: *
> 
> You may not comment on the same vendor more than once per year.
> What if you have made a great comment with a vendor based on your first experience with said company and then the next time and the next (until you give up) you are getting LOUSY treatment/products etc. Don't we as a community want that kind of follow up information? This will allow the unscrupulous individuals that exist in any community to take advantage of more members than if folks are allowed to post their experiences on a more frequent basis (not weekly, or even monthly perhpas but once a quarter would make some sense). Alternatively I guess I would be holding my thoughts about any vendor until I have done business with that person several times - which also hurts the community since new members will be put in a position where it will be nearly impossible to build any type of reputation or suppport in a timely fashion.
> 
> 
> Do not advertise for another vendor in a review about a different vendor.
> You may not start a thread or comment in a thread discussing a vendor with which you have any business relationship other than as customer.
> What constitutes "any business relationship"? Does money or product have to exchange hands? Does it count as a business relationship if you are consulting with a vendor to assist them in a project? IE someone helping a vendor set up a shopping cart ... financial planning? etc.
> 
> *You may not start a thread or comment in a thread discussing a vendor if you are legally related to, or cohabitate with, any employee of, officer of, or supplier to that business.*
> 
> *S*o if you have a "relationship" with a supplier of a product sold to Vendor A and you see a post on Vendor A about a product that you personally bought from that Vendor that has NOTHING to do with the fact that you are living with or related to a DIFFERENT SUPPLIER to that Vendor you can't say a word in any post? IE: Because Pepsi sells products to Shell stations the Wife/girlfriend of a Pepsi truck driver can't make any statement on what great prices on Gas the Shell station has????
> 
> - really think this needs clarified as it appears the beginning of the statement makes the relationship/comment status apply to all (employee, officer or SUPPLIER of any given vendor). If we are going to remove comments by ANYONE that is related to ANY supplier/employee etc then I think we need to make that cross the board with all vendors - however not all relationships are always known so how do we Honestly Moderate this?
> 
> 
> Thanks for clarifications.
> Linda
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'd consider changing that to quarterly.
> 
> "Business Relationship" means an exchange of things of value with or without a contract.
> "exchange" implies that both parties must be receiving something in this relationship.  So if I do Vendor X's taxes for free every year that means this is NOT a business relationship.  ????
> 
> I would disagree with that definition as that opens us up to anyone that wants to "help" out another vendor and still be able to make statements about them to direct business their way would be able to do so.
> 
> You made my point with the Shell/Pepsi analogy. Girlfriend mentions the great prices at the Shell station, Shell station gets more customers, Shell station sells proportionately more Pepsi, boyfriend gets overtime to deliver more Pepsi, girlfriend gets nicer jewelry for her birthday.
> 
> That's a stretch of course, but I think you see my point.
> 
> EXCELLENT - this was my intention!!!
> 
> Here's a clearer example. Let's say the wife of a supplier of Widget A to IPD is a member. She bought Widget B from IPD and comments positively about her experience with IPD. That drives more people to IPD, and then they see you featuring Widget A on your site. You'll sell more of those because the wife of the supplier has driven traffic to your site.
> 
> I think you understand what I'm trying to prevent here. What change would you propose?
> 
> I don't really propose a change.  I was seriously getting clarification do to the fact that with three of us in this house being members none of us read that the way I posted (and you agreed) except me.  I thought it needed to be quite clear.
> 
> I still question though how we will be able to "monitor" and thus moderate this practice.
> 
> 99% of the members have no relationship to any vendors other than as customers. It's their cheers and jeers we want.
Click to expand...

 
Ah, but see this is something different.  Having a relationship with the vendor and having a relationship with SUPPLIERS that the vendor sells products for is two VERY DIFFERENT issues.  My point is that we "mostly" know who is related to whom when it comes to vendors.  We don't always know who is related to Vendor J's supplier of >>>insert product name here<<< and therefore would be very difficult to know that a person commenting is in some way related to the supply source for that product.  For example - CA.  MANY of us sell that product, maybe some of us get it from the same supplier ... if the bottle filler from CA shows up on the IAP and makes a comment on my company having this product - you have no way of knowing if that bottle filler is my 2nd cousin twice removed or the SIL of the owner of CA if that isn't stated at some point.  Thus this is a rule that I believe is quite acceptable, but not quite as easily enforced as say the size of photographs which is pretty cut and dry in my eyes.


Thanks for all the hard work and taking the time to clarify these questions jeff,  I certainly appreciate it.

Linda


----------



## jeff

soligen said:


> jeff said:
> 
> 
> 
> ....
> Rick, you DO have a great product. I know that first hand.
> ....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not trying to nitpic - this just struck my sometimes odd sense of humor, and I thought it good to point something out.
> 
> *As soon as Rick buys a thread, Jeff could not make this comment without violating his own rules, becasue they have a business relationship - services were provided for a fee. Comlimenting any vendor helps that vendor success, which drives more classified thread sales.*
> 
> I just thought everyone should be aware that the entire IAP team has sacraficed their ability to comment on vendor products in order to make rules they believe will make a better IAP.
> 
> Not only do the give a lot, they give up a lot - Kudos to the team!
Click to expand...


That's a good point and a good catch. I'll be more careful.


----------



## Timebandit

DurocShark said:


> Timebandit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Timebandit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DurocShark said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Timebandit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> soligen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Smitty, I think this is allowed. Here is the rule
> 
> You can participate in threads in the general forums where your products are being discussed, provide helpful advice, and respond to most questions about them.
> 
> You just cant say you sell it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you Dennis. I think a lot of people need to go back and read the rules CAREFULLY. In no way is any of that advertising. Just dont say that you sell it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Then, unless the vendor is known as the seller, his advice (which would be considered expert if he is known as the seller) gets lost in the noise?
> 
> Granted, a direct communication would get the individual the answer, but then all the other users miss out.
> 
> I have a hard time with this rule (can ya tell? :wink
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Which he can with his sig line. You do it with yours do you not? You make it Blatently clear that you make the Leaf Blanks, It says "My Leaf Blanks at so and so", so i dont see where the problem is. There is no way that if you answered a question for me about a blank that i bought from so and so and you responded, i would immediatly know that you are the maker of said blanks.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I tend to acknowledge a higher power with my signature line - I don't advertise my products just a link to my store.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Wasnt speaking about you Smitty. :wink::biggrin:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What is or isn't in my sig isn't relevant. Sigs change. And to be honest, I doubt many sales were made because of my sig.
> 
> About sigs, Ed mentioned the idea of paying to have your product/site/whatever in your sig. I kinda like that idea and would support it if that happened.
> 
> I don't know why Timebandit has jumped on my arse about this... I keep reading the rules, and re-reading the posts by Curtis and Jeff and there's a lot of mud still in the way. So I'm trying to clear things up to my mind, if nobody else's.
> 
> Crap, I'm not even a retail seller here. Why am I even bothering?
Click to expand...


Don, im not jumping anyone. Im sorry if anything came out that way.
My point was that if i bought your blanks, i know who made them. Not just from your sig, but from where you sell them, they tell me who makes them. If i have a question, i will go to you directly. I will NOT start a thread asking for help with your blanks from anyone but you, and i wont even ask the vendor i got them from. Why, because i will go to the source to get my answers. You act like know one around here knows who made the products they buy, and if you tried to help with information with one that you sell, your advise would just  "get lost in the noise" as you put it, because know one would know you were the maker or vendor. I am sorry that others would lose out on that information, but thats just the way i go about things, i dont want to beat around the bush and get a whole bunch of answers from people that dont make or sell the said product by starting a thread. If they have the same problem, they can PM you as well. Again i am sorry if you feel i am jumping you, i in no way mean it that way.:redface: Just joining in on the conversation.


----------



## Smitty37

*I don't have a solution*



jeff said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Timebandit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> soligen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Smitty, I think this is allowed. Here is the rule
> 
> You can participate in threads in the general forums where your products are being discussed, provide helpful advice, and respond to most questions about them.
> 
> You just cant say you sell it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you Dennis. I think a lot of people need to go back and read the rules CAREFULLY. In no way is any of that advertising. Just dont say that you sell it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I stated what I think is going to be a potential problem area. I still see it that way. The problem is going to be that if misinformation is entered about one of my products I will not be able to correct it without saying I sell the product.
> 
> An example. I sell product A, I have sold a couple of thousand of them.
> 
> Member posts a valid complaint.
> 
> I can't say "Hey just send it back to me and I'll replace it". Only the seller could make that statement. So I would violate the spirit if not the letter of the rule.
> 
> I'd still resolve the issue....but I have seen what can happen in threads that start out just like that. In the end the seller comes out to be a "low life thief and a dog robber besides"
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You could PM him "Hey just send it back to me and I'll replace it". If he's a decent guy, he'll post that the situation is resolved.
> 
> I don't see how there would be an issue of correcting misinformation.
> 
> The idea here is simple. To the maximum extent practical, confine true advertising to the classifieds. We have people who in the general forums post all kinds of stuff that is clearly intended to get people to make the purchase. Use the classifieds to get people to buy your stuff. Nothing wrong with providing helpful information in the general forums.
> 
> I'm sorry that the rules are difficult to digest. Unfortunately they had to be written considering the behavior of relatively few members. Some people will push right to the limit, or over, then complain when others do the same thing. That creates an antagonistic environment and is extremely annoying and time-consuming for me and the mods. It had to stop. Most of the DOC rules were written to legislate simple good behavior.
> 
> I consider our vendors to be some of the most experienced and valuable members we have. I want to encourage their participation while limiting the marketing nature of discussions outside the classifieds.
> 
> Off my soapbox now, I'll add that we want to improve the rules, so specific suggestions for intent and wording are welcome. PM me if you like.
Click to expand...

 
I don't have a solution....it is something I see as a *potential* area of contention. To be honest I doubt that eliminating the rule altogether is really any less a problem but I think it's something that we're going to need to be aware of.


----------



## steeler fan1

Nothing really earth shaking to add. It appears that all the conversations involve vendors and classifieds(because thats what its mostly about). I'm not a vendor, don't have anything to sell.

I'm a buyer and I've bought from lots of people on this site, Everyone loves me right:bulgy-eyes:. I try to support the vendors and people in general, who frequent this site by purchasing from them before hitting the big box stores. I particularly like the personal touch as well as getting a fair deal. It's nice to know the person you're dealing with, if only via email. That being said, it is my hope that all the changes provide a positive buying experience. Of course we wont know until the changes are implimented:biggrin:.

I'm hoping for the best, lets leter' rip!

Carl


----------



## Polarys425

jeff said:


> soligen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jeff said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have essentially been running a buying service for some high end components no longer sold by any other US Based Supplier. As I read the rules I will not be able to offer that service any longer. Am I reading correctly?
> 
> That doesn't hurt me because I don't make enough profit on them to dent my bottom line but I do think it is to the detriment of the membership that I apparantly won't be be able to continue these offers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know how else to draw the line other than at profit. We discussed this, and your buys specifically, for quite some time trying to see how they could be accommodated.
> 
> I don't know what you consider a "dent". What we were trying to avoid was the situation where someone was using member's money instead of their own to make a significant profit.
> 
> The only way I could see to accommodate this would be to remove the "on hand or committed to buy" provision. That opens things up to those who want to risk member funds rather than their own while making a profit on the goods and the float.
> 
> I'd be very open to hear your specific suggestions on how to accommodate this while protecting members from profiteers who prefer to risk other people's money.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I don't have any suggestions. I just wanted to make sure I actually understood the rule.
> 
> If you don't want that activity on your site - so be it. It has been a lot of work for very little benefit other than I did gain some loyal customers and good friends.
> 
> With the market research tool I might be able to come up with a way to provide this service to the membership without breaking the rule. Who knows.
> 
> BTW. What I mean by not making a dent is that on the Dayacom purchases I've made....my profit has been less than 0 to date. I might make some profit if/when my inventory gets sold.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Jeff,
> 
> I'd like to encourage you to find a way to allow the kinds of buys Smitty does to continue to happen.
> 
> Yes, Smitty is using our pre-payments as capitol to reach purchase mimums, but I dont see anything wrong with this - we all know and understand what he is doing, and anyone who doesnt want to take the risk doesnt have to. We get the benefit of some great prices on kits -- as long as we dont mind waiting. This is a perfectly valid business model, and this is common on other venues (pre-purchasing wine before it is released comes to mind). It is a business model based on trust.
> 
> It is admirable for you to want to help protect IAP members from people trying to take advantage, but I'm not sure that is achievable. Risk is in every transaction we make. The vendors advertizing here are typically small one person (or family) concerns, often run by a retired person. With any transaction we take risk - who knows when something "unfortunate" will happen to any vendor.
> 
> The kinds of deals Smitty does only work with someone with a good reputation. Personally, I would not even think about entering such a deal with someone new to the IAP, and I waited before entering a deal with Smitty until I had a certain degree of confidence. Each of us personally can choose the amount of risk we can tolerate.
> 
> Personally, I'd rather have the option to do an advanced purchase deal - guaging risk vs. savings for myself - rather than not have the option. As long as the terms of the deal are clearly layed out, I see nothing wrong with them.
> 
> BTW, I have absolutely no association with Smitty, other than I participated in one of his buys.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> We'll discuss this in the back room and see what we can come up with.
Click to expand...

 
I, for one, don't see a difference in the risk to the buyer in the type of pre-buys Smitty does, and an outright order of instock goods. The buyer STILL PAYS FIRST, and is at risk of losing that until said goods are delivered.


----------



## Monty

Polarys425 said:


> jeff said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> soligen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jeff said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have essentially been running a buying service for some high end components no longer sold by any other US Based Supplier. As I read the rules I will not be able to offer that service any longer. Am I reading correctly?
> 
> That doesn't hurt me because I don't make enough profit on them to dent my bottom line but I do think it is to the detriment of the membership that I apparantly won't be be able to continue these offers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know how else to draw the line other than at profit. We discussed this, and your buys specifically, for quite some time trying to see how they could be accommodated.
> 
> I don't know what you consider a "dent". What we were trying to avoid was the situation where someone was using member's money instead of their own to make a significant profit.
> 
> The only way I could see to accommodate this would be to remove the "on hand or committed to buy" provision. That opens things up to those who want to risk member funds rather than their own while making a profit on the goods and the float.
> 
> I'd be very open to hear your specific suggestions on how to accommodate this while protecting members from profiteers who prefer to risk other people's money.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I don't have any suggestions. I just wanted to make sure I actually understood the rule.
> 
> If you don't want that activity on your site - so be it. It has been a lot of work for very little benefit other than I did gain some loyal customers and good friends.
> 
> With the market research tool I might be able to come up with a way to provide this service to the membership without breaking the rule. Who knows.
> 
> BTW. What I mean by not making a dent is that on the Dayacom purchases I've made....my profit has been less than 0 to date. I might make some profit if/when my inventory gets sold.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Jeff,
> 
> I'd like to encourage you to find a way to allow the kinds of buys Smitty does to continue to happen.
> 
> Yes, Smitty is using our pre-payments as capitol to reach purchase mimums, but I dont see anything wrong with this - we all know and understand what he is doing, and anyone who doesnt want to take the risk doesnt have to. We get the benefit of some great prices on kits -- as long as we dont mind waiting. This is a perfectly valid business model, and this is common on other venues (pre-purchasing wine before it is released comes to mind). It is a business model based on trust.
> 
> It is admirable for you to want to help protect IAP members from people trying to take advantage, but I'm not sure that is achievable. Risk is in every transaction we make. The vendors advertizing here are typically small one person (or family) concerns, often run by a retired person. With any transaction we take risk - who knows when something "unfortunate" will happen to any vendor.
> 
> The kinds of deals Smitty does only work with someone with a good reputation. Personally, I would not even think about entering such a deal with someone new to the IAP, and I waited before entering a deal with Smitty until I had a certain degree of confidence. Each of us personally can choose the amount of risk we can tolerate.
> 
> Personally, I'd rather have the option to do an advanced purchase deal - guaging risk vs. savings for myself - rather than not have the option. As long as the terms of the deal are clearly layed out, I see nothing wrong with them.
> 
> BTW, I have absolutely no association with Smitty, other than I participated in one of his buys.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> We'll discuss this in the back room and see what we can come up with.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I, for one, don't see a difference in the risk to the buyer in the type of pre-buys Smitty does, and an outright order of instock goods. The buyer STILL PAYS FIRST, and is at risk of losing that until said goods are delivered.
Click to expand...

The difference is it's the buyers money at risk, not the money of the participants in the buy that's at risk. There have been at least two other situations of IAP members prepaying for items to be delivered at a date sometime in the future and the person running the buy disappeared, for who knows what reason, without delivering the goods. Then people got upset and demanded IAP do something about this despite it being in the TOS that IAP has no control over transactions between individuals.


----------



## alphageek

Monty said:


> Polarys425 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I, for one, don't see a difference in the risk to the buyer in the type of pre-buys Smitty does, and an outright order of instock goods. The buyer STILL PAYS FIRST, and is at risk of losing that until said goods are delivered.
> 
> 
> 
> The difference is it's the buyers money at risk, not the money of the participants in the buy that's at risk. There have been at least two other situations of IAP members prepaying for items to be delivered at a date sometime in the future and the person running the buy disappeared, for who knows what reason, without delivering the goods. Then people got upset and demanded IAP do something about this despite it being in the TOS that IAP has no control over transactions between individuals.
Click to expand...


This AND the fact that its been stated that the suppliers involved are overseas and refuse to even offer insurance on the goods making it.   Even with the best vendors, there is risk and by having members here pay for this up front their risk is greater. 

Theres a big difference between buying a product that a vendor has in stock and will be delivered in short order and one that doesn't exist yet and is months out.   The likelihood of a lot of members loosing money on product that is at a vendor is much smaller because if the vendor doesn't deliver for the money, that is known much faster.


----------



## JerrySambrook

MesquiteMan said:


> Andrew, you may have come up with a good idea for punishment for repeat offenders...make them be a moderator for a day!



SIGN ME UP:biggrin:


----------



## Smitty37

*Let's be clear*



Monty said:


> Polarys425 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jeff said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> soligen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jeff said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have essentially been running a buying service for some high end components no longer sold by any other US Based Supplier. As I read the rules I will not be able to offer that service any longer. Am I reading correctly?
> 
> That doesn't hurt me because I don't make enough profit on them to dent my bottom line but I do think it is to the detriment of the membership that I apparantly won't be be able to continue these offers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know how else to draw the line other than at profit. We discussed this, and your buys specifically, for quite some time trying to see how they could be accommodated.
> 
> I don't know what you consider a "dent". What we were trying to avoid was the situation where someone was using member's money instead of their own to make a significant profit.
> 
> The only way I could see to accommodate this would be to remove the "on hand or committed to buy" provision. That opens things up to those who want to risk member funds rather than their own while making a profit on the goods and the float.
> 
> I'd be very open to hear your specific suggestions on how to accommodate this while protecting members from profiteers who prefer to risk other people's money.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I don't have any suggestions. I just wanted to make sure I actually understood the rule.
> 
> If you don't want that activity on your site - so be it. It has been a lot of work for very little benefit other than I did gain some loyal customers and good friends.
> 
> With the market research tool I might be able to come up with a way to provide this service to the membership without breaking the rule. Who knows.
> 
> BTW. What I mean by not making a dent is that on the Dayacom purchases I've made....my profit has been less than 0 to date. I might make some profit if/when my inventory gets sold.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Jeff,
> 
> I'd like to encourage you to find a way to allow the kinds of buys Smitty does to continue to happen.
> 
> Yes, Smitty is using our pre-payments as capitol to reach purchase mimums, but I dont see anything wrong with this - we all know and understand what he is doing, and anyone who doesnt want to take the risk doesnt have to. We get the benefit of some great prices on kits -- as long as we dont mind waiting. This is a perfectly valid business model, and this is common on other venues (pre-purchasing wine before it is released comes to mind). It is a business model based on trust.
> 
> It is admirable for you to want to help protect IAP members from people trying to take advantage, but I'm not sure that is achievable. Risk is in every transaction we make. The vendors advertizing here are typically small one person (or family) concerns, often run by a retired person. With any transaction we take risk - who knows when something "unfortunate" will happen to any vendor.
> 
> The kinds of deals Smitty does only work with someone with a good reputation. Personally, I would not even think about entering such a deal with someone new to the IAP, and I waited before entering a deal with Smitty until I had a certain degree of confidence. Each of us personally can choose the amount of risk we can tolerate.
> 
> Personally, I'd rather have the option to do an advanced purchase deal - guaging risk vs. savings for myself - rather than not have the option. As long as the terms of the deal are clearly layed out, I see nothing wrong with them.
> 
> BTW, I have absolutely no association with Smitty, other than I participated in one of his buys.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> We'll discuss this in the back room and see what we can come up with.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I, for one, don't see a difference in the risk to the buyer in the type of pre-buys Smitty does, and an outright order of instock goods. The buyer STILL PAYS FIRST, and is at risk of losing that until said goods are delivered.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The difference is it's the buyers money at risk, not the money of the participants in the buy that's at risk. There have been at least two other situations of IAP members prepaying for items to be delivered at a date sometime in the future and the person running the buy disappeared, for who knows what reason, without delivering the goods. Then people got upset and demanded IAP do something about this despite it being in the TOS that IAP has no control over transactions between individuals.
Click to expand...

Let's be clear about something:

There is absolutely NOTHING to prevent the coordinator of a group buy from absconding with the money paid him/her and not deliver the goods. 

A thief is a thief and if someone is intending to fleece IAP members it is no harder to do it with a Group buy than by my approach. Probably a little easier because a quick call to Beau Biden (Delaware's State Attorney General) would get him after me for fraud and since I have a business license I'm not hard to find.

That being said - I am still not asking for any change in the new rule. After discussion the administration decided that they do not want me doing what I've been doing.  I can't say I especially like a rule being made that only affects mebut then I can't say I'd especially like having an exception made that would only affect me either.

The Rule is OK - the sun will still come up in the morning and go down in the evening and the world will keep turning. Honest.

Personally I am going to forget this and get on with the rest of my life which is short enough already.


----------



## Dave Turner

> There have been at least two other situations of IAP members prepaying  for items to be delivered at a date sometime in the future and the  person running the buy disappeared, for who knows what reason, without  delivering the goods. Then people got upset and demanded IAP do something about this despite  it being in the TOS that IAP has no control over transactions between  individuals.


It's great that you want to protect the membership (and moderators) from situations such as these. But in doing so, you are disadvantaging the hundreds? of members who take advantage of the unique opportunities and price breaks these offers provide.

As an alternative approach, could you not require specific wording prominently displayed in any such offer alerting the prospective buyer of the risks involved - similar to the warning on cigarette packs. Let the informed consumer weight the risks and benefits. Any complaints that arise from such an offer gone sour should simply be answered with a polite referral to the TOS. Of course any offending vendor would be expelled from membership. Thanks for listening.

Dave


----------



## maxwell_smart007

I just don't see the big controversy here. There is absolutely nothing to prevent one of two things happening: 

1. group buys
2. pre-sales on websites. 

Pre-sales of goods that are not in stock, ordered, or in the case of Chinese kits - not yet made - have an inherent risk. When one is risking one's own money, you can charge a premium for taking the risk.  

When you're risking others' money, then that's a different fish altogether.  That being said, if the membership wants to continue to risk purchasing items not yet made or delivered, with no insurance, then that's fine - but why not move the perceived liability to anothers' website? 

Pre-sales are advertised on others' websites all the time.  All that one would have to do is say 'Check out my website for a pre-sale of A', and there you go...

There is no "Smitty Rule"...there is a rule to encourage risky transactions to occur off of the IAP's domain.  Like it or not, if the transaction occurs at the IAP and the organizer drops dead, or the factory steals the money, or far more likely - the package gets lost in the mail, people are going to complain to the IAP for restitution (which won't occur - the IAP does not 'insure' or condone any transactions) - which is a situation that doesn't need to happen.  

Trustworthy individuals have reneged in the past - many of you haven't been here long enough to remember, but long-standing members have vanished with large sums of member's money overnight...nice people, just ran into money troubles or major life events and couldn't deliver.  

Very few individuals have an extra ten grand or so in liquid cash lying around to pay for a lost shipment.


----------



## maxwell_smart007

Dave Turner said:


> Any complaints that arise from such an offer gone sour should simply be answered with a polite referral to the TOS. Of course any offending vendor would be expelled from membership. Thanks for listening.
> 
> Dave
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dave, before becoming a moderator, I had no idea about the complaints, screaming, and shouting that occurs when a simple post is moved from the improper forum to the correct one - there's a boiling pot below the calm surface sometimes!
> 
> With this in mind, I'm imagining how well a 'polite referral to the TOS' would go if a person lost a few hundred dollars on a transaction that occurred on the IAP.
Click to expand...


----------



## Dave Turner

So what I'm hearing is that the avoidance of pre-sales within the forums is primarily to prevent the moderators from having to deal with the fallout should anything go wrong. This seems logical. The moderators are providing a valuable service for free. It makes sense to keep them happy.

I know I'm not moderator material. I'd just refer them to the TOS. If they persisted in harassing me, they'd be banned from the system. In all fairness, I'd give them one warning before banning them for violating the TOS.

Dave


----------



## Gin N' Tonic

Jeff,

Thank you.

You just said what I was hoping that Curtis would say. Unfortunately what was said did not appear to be what he intended to convey. As I said, Curtis is a friend and since he is "one of the faces of the forum" I hold him to a higher standard. I would never want him to say or do anything unintentionally that would hurt his reputation of the reputation of the forum. I believed that I saw an inaccurate statement and set out to clarify it. As I see it the issue has now been adequately explained and any inaccuracies have been corrected. 

As we both know, I've been involved off and on in the forum as a moderator and as the Library manager and I know only too well what a thankless job it is. (one of many reasons why I don't want to get involved)

As to me, I'm feeling a little better and hope to visit more frequently.










jeff said:


> Hi Scott,
> 
> I think what Curtis intended to convey (and he's correct) is that the mods and managers do not have any financial interest or see any financial gain from IAP *any more than any other member.*
> 
> Yes, Curtis gets traffic from his sig. So can any other member.
> 
> Nice to see you visiting. Hope all is well with you!
> 
> 
> 
> Gin N' Tonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> You're kidding right?
> 
> As I read your post I see that you have a signature line that links to your web site. Again, In my opinion the fact that you have a link in your signature line I feel that you are advertising with each and every post. I guess that since all of the financial transactions took place off site you try to make me believe your statement but I would counter by saying that if you did not have a link in your signature line I suspect you would have a LOT LESS traffic on your site and less traffic usually translated to less sales, therefore you would see less financial gain.
> 
> Sorry Curtis, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
> 
> I'm not saying that you should not link to your site in the signature line because any member has that right and it would be ridiculous to deny mods or managers the same rights as all other members but as "head moderator" I cannot put you on my ignore list  and therefore I cannot "turn you off". I realize that I have the ability to turn off all signatures buy why should I have to? Given these facts, In my opinion, you cannot make me believe that you do not get any perks or benefit financially in any way especially since you just posted, and I quote
> 
> " I won't pretend that I don't need IAP, that is not the case.  I get a lot of traffic from IAP on my website even though I don't advertise here very often. "
> 
> Therefore, We'll just have to agree to disagree and chalk it up to looking at it from different points of view.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MesquiteMan said:
> 
> 
> 
> And I still disagree with you!  Let me clarify.  The MODS and MANAGERS have no financial benefit from IAP due to their positions within IAP.  Some Mods and Managers, as members, sell stuff on IAP.  I think I have ran one ad in the last year and it did not even have prices in it.  It was to introduce a new product and direct folks to my website where all the financial transaction took place.  I won't pretend that I don't need IAP, that is not the case.  I get a lot of traffic from IAP on my website even though I don't advertise here very often.
> 
> However, as the head moderator here, I do not benefit in any way financially from IAP.  I don't get paid, I don't get perks, I don't get special Christmas Cards from the boss, (actually I don't even get any Christmas Cards form the boss!), I don't get free tickets to any of the raffles or drawings, I will not even get discounts on the advertising once the new rules go into effect.  I will have to pay full price just like anyone else.
> 
> 
> 
> Gin N' Tonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MesquiteMan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> soligen said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not trying to nitpic - this just struck my sometimes odd sense of humor, and I thought it good to point something out.
> 
> As soon as Rick buys a thread, Jeff could not make this comment without violating his own rules, becasue they have a business relationship - services were provided for a fee. Comlimenting any vendor helps that vendor success, which drives more classified thread sales.
> 
> I just thought everyone should be aware that the entire IAP team has sacraficed their ability to comment on vendor products in order to make rules they believe will make a better IAP.
> 
> Not only do the give a lot, they give up a lot - Kudos to the team!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Except that Jeff is the boss and can do whatever the heck he wants and the mods and managers do not have any financial interest or see any financial gain from IAP.  Actually, as mods, all we really get are flames and griping for simple things such as moving a thread from one forum to another!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Curtis,
> 
> You are my friend, and I consider you to be a good friend but I must respectfully disagree with you here.
> 
> In my opinion, most of the mods or managers DO have financial interest in the IAP because they are also vendors who make a considerable amount of money from selling to the members of this site.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## robutacion

Well, I've been here reading this since post #1 non stop, for hours on end, its now 2:00am, and I reached post #285 at the point of this reply.

What I can say at the moment is that, I have not yet read Jeff's new thread with all the recent rules and, after reading all this, I nearly know all the new rules by heart...!

I'm absolutely exhausted at the moment (from reading all this...!) to make a direct observation of the new rules impact on my few sales but, I can say that, I have paid my way on every sales I made through IAP, I've made it very clear on all my adds.

Is it going to cost me less...??? it seems so, I was happy to pay my % on every sale, as my advertising policy, and while I knew that those like me, paying a % on sales wouldn't have any special treatment when the expected new rules would hit, the recent changes did not surprised or shocked me in any way shape or form.

I will see, how well I do, with the implementation of the new classified rules...???

PS: I have only one word (sort of...!) for you Jeff, "you damn if you do, you damn if you not...!"

Cheers
George


----------



## Gin N' Tonic

jeff said:


> Let me make one brief comment about the financial questions. Nobody "makes anything". Money received is either expended on legitimate needs to run the site and support the IAP, or it's in the bank. As the donation page says, "_We're an all-volunteer operation. Nobody gets any salary or payment of any kind for their labor in connection with developing or supporting the site. Donated funds are used primarily to pay hosting and bandwidth costs, purchase site-support software and hardware, and obtain professional services._"



I think this post bears repeating..........

If all of our volunteers were paid minimum wage for the time they have and had put into this forum I would suspect that membership would cost more than $100.00 per year.


----------



## Smitty37

*Not true*



maxwell_smart007 said:


> I just don't see the big controversy here. There is absolutely nothing to prevent one of two things happening:
> 
> 1. group buys
> 2. pre-sales on websites.
> 
> Pre-sales of goods that are not in stock, ordered, or in the case of Chinese kits - not yet made - have an inherent risk. When one is risking one's own money, you can charge a premium for taking the risk.
> 
> When you're risking others' money, then that's a different fish altogether. That being said, if the membership wants to continue to risk purchasing items not yet made or delivered, with no insurance, then that's fine - but why not move the perceived liability to anothers' website?
> 
> Pre-sales are advertised on others' websites all the time. All that one would have to do is say 'Check out my website for a pre-sale of A', and there you go...
> 
> There is no "Smitty Rule"...there is a rule to encourage risky transactions to occur off of the IAP's domain. Like it or not, if the transaction occurs at the IAP and the organizer drops dead, or the factory steals the money, or far more likely - the package gets lost in the mail, people are going to complain to the IAP for restitution (which won't occur - the IAP does not 'insure' or condone any transactions) - which is a situation that doesn't need to happen.
> 
> Trustworthy individuals have reneged in the past - many of you haven't been here long enough to remember, but long-standing members have vanished with large sums of member's money overnight...nice people, just ran into money troubles or major life events and couldn't deliver.
> 
> Very few individuals have an extra ten grand or so in liquid cash lying around to pay for a lost shipment.


 
Group buys are not a possibility for purchasing Dayacom products directly from them under the rules Andrew and only to a limited degree for Rizheng (Rizheng does have some items in stock - Dayacom does not seem to).


----------



## Texatdurango

Smitty37 said:


> ............*That being said - I am still not asking for any change in the new rule.* After discussion the administration decided that they do not want me doing what I've been doing. I can't say I especially like a rule being made that only affects mebut then I can't say I'd especially like having an exception made that would only affect me either.
> 
> *The Rule is OK* - the sun will still come up in the morning and go down in the evening and the world will keep turning. Honest.
> 
> *Personally I am going to forget this* and get on with the rest of my life which is short enough already.


 
Smitty, it's obvious that you're upset over the rules and you just continue hammering at the same little details over and over and over again from every angle possible.  You keep agreeing (see above) yet keep arguing the same argument!  I think we're down to splitting hairs on a knats legs now!

It's hard enough trying to read the discussions about the rules without sifting through the 8,326 pages of LONG posts with 15 paragraph quotes every other post rehashing the same ole thing.  

Do what you said in your post above....... get away from your computer, go relax and play around in the shop or if you're still upset, find a neighborhood dog to yell at, rehashing this stuff isn't worth it!  I think the rules are here to stay!


----------



## Padre

qalien said:


> "Where does it go?" and other such questions are absolutely valid....if I decide to donate money, I would like to know that what I donate is actually going to go towards what am being told it is for rather than going into someone's pocket.  And just to clarify, I am in no way shape or form accusing anyone of taking the money that is donated and keeping it.
> 
> This is a change in the way we do business on this forum.  I'm trying to form my opinion on it and I know there are many people wondering the same thing, even if they haven't voiced it yet.



From your other post: " I admit that I have never donated anything to help pay for the costs"    I find it somewhat quizzical why you are asking these questions then.

I also think, as no one connected to the 'management' of IAP, that the questions are way out of line.


Jeff: an idea: why not put little 'badges' on the people who have donated like other sites do?


----------



## Smitty37

*Hey Don't blame me*



Texatdurango said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ............*That being said - I am still not asking for any change in the new rule.* After discussion the administration decided that they do not want me doing what I've been doing. I can't say I especially like a rule being made that only affects mebut then I can't say I'd especially like having an exception made that would only affect me either.
> 
> *The Rule is OK* - the sun will still come up in the morning and go down in the evening and the world will keep turning. Honest.
> 
> *Personally I am going to forget this* and get on with the rest of my life which is short enough already.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Smitty, it's obvious that you're upset over the rules and you just continue hammering at the same little details over and over and over again from every angle possible. You keep agreeing (see above) yet keep arguing the same argument! I think we're down to splitting hairs on a knats legs now!
> 
> It's hard enough trying to read the discussions about the rules without sifting through the 8,326 pages of LONG posts with 15 paragraph quotes every other post rehashing the same ole thing.
> 
> Do what you said in your post above....... get away from your computer, go relax and play around in the shop or if you're still upset, find a neighborhood dog to yell at, rehashing this stuff isn't worth it! I think the rules are here to stay!
Click to expand...

 
I agree there are a lot of references to my posts but I have made 6 posts in this thread on the subject of the "Smitty rule"  #1 asked a question, #2 replied to the Jeff's answer, #3 responded to another post #4 defended  Mesquiteman's handling of another thread and there were 140 posts between number 4 and 5.  

None of my posts were long and none of them contained any indication that I am upset in any way shape or manner.

There were other posts I made regarding other rules supporting some of the changes and pointing out what I see as problems with others.  

Since you don't know me, have never seen or spoken to me, have never exchanged emails with me or in any other way had a direct communication with me.... I might ask on what you base your rather inane conclusion that I'm "obviously" upset?  I am not.


----------



## Smitty37

*Steals and Deals*

Occasionally I wind up with a few odds and ends, mostly kits, that I no longer want - normally they are not kits that I stock but others I buy to look at and evaluate.  In the past I have offered these at very low prices - usually not much more than shipping costs, to members in the trades and give aways.  Am I correct in assuming I will now have to put these in the classified?


----------



## jeff

Smitty37 said:


> Occasionally I wind up with a few odds and ends, mostly kits, that I no longer want - normally they are not kits that I stock but others I buy to look at and evaluate.  In the past I have offered these at very low prices - usually not much more than shipping costs, to members in the trades and give aways.  Am I correct in assuming I will now have to put these in the classified?



Yes, you would need to use the classifieds. We did not build a 'I'm selling below cost' provision into the rules because there's no way to verify it. 

You could certainly tack them on with another ad you're running, or perhaps save them up so you have a reasonable quantity and minimize the impact of the cost.

Hope that helps.


----------



## Smitty37

*Thanks*



jeff said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Occasionally I wind up with a few odds and ends, mostly kits, that I no longer want - normally they are not kits that I stock but others I buy to look at and evaluate. In the past I have offered these at very low prices - usually not much more than shipping costs, to members in the trades and give aways. Am I correct in assuming I will now have to put these in the classified?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, you would need to use the classifieds. We did not build a 'I'm selling below cost' provision into the rules because there's no way to verify it.
> 
> You could certainly tack them on with another ad you're running, or perhaps save them up so you have a reasonable quantity and minimize the impact of the cost.
> 
> Hope that helps.
Click to expand...

 It's not a problem for me, just making sure.


----------



## MesquiteMan

Or just use the steals and deals forum if it is not something that you normally sell and are just trying to get rid of it.


----------



## Smitty37

*Clarification*

One of the rules in the general selling hss this wording ..."If you see something in an ad which is misleading, deceptive, or unsafe, click the yellow triangle and alert a moderator".  I fully understand "misleading and deceptive" but I'd like clarification as to what kind of things might fall under "unsafe".  

Thanks


----------



## DurocShark

Smitty37 said:


> One of the rules in the general selling hss this wording ..."If you see something in an ad which is misleading, deceptive, or unsafe, click the yellow triangle and alert a moderator".  I fully understand "misleading and deceptive" but I'd like clarification as to what kind of things might fall under "unsafe".
> 
> Thanks


Wearing nitrile gloves while using Jasco Premium Paint and Epoxy Remover?


----------



## Smitty37

*How does one "sell" that.*



DurocShark said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> 
> One of the rules in the general selling hss this wording ..."If you see something in an ad which is misleading, deceptive, or unsafe, click the yellow triangle and alert a moderator". I fully understand "misleading and deceptive" but I'd like clarification as to what kind of things might fall under "unsafe".
> 
> Thanks
> 
> 
> 
> Wearing nitrile gloves while using Jasco Premium Paint and Epoxy Remover?
Click to expand...

 
Unsafe?  I'll take your word for that.  But, I'm not too clear on just how I would be selling it?


----------



## maxwell_smart007

For example, Smitty - If the ad says 'all my harbor freight pressure pot conversions are designed to go to 5 million Kpa pressure ratings while filled with shrapnel' - when it's very obvious that this is unsafe, please inform a mod...


----------



## Smitty37

*Hmmmm*

So you do have a sense of humor after all. 

I was thinking more on the more mundane line of perhaps it might be referring to offering toxic materials under a brand name where it wasn't obvious they were toxic unless you read the warnings on the container.


----------



## DurocShark

Smitty37 said:


> DurocShark said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> 
> One of the rules in the general selling hss this wording ..."If you see something in an ad which is misleading, deceptive, or unsafe, click the yellow triangle and alert a moderator". I fully understand "misleading and deceptive" but I'd like clarification as to what kind of things might fall under "unsafe".
> 
> Thanks
> 
> 
> 
> Wearing nitrile gloves while using Jasco Premium Paint and Epoxy Remover?
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Unsafe?  I'll take your word for that.  But, I'm not too clear on just how I would be selling it?
Click to expand...

Maybe selling the gloves and saying they're fine for that nasty stuff? :wink:


----------



## jeff

Smitty37 said:


> So you do have a sense of humor after all.
> 
> I was thinking more on the more mundane line of perhaps it might be referring to offering toxic materials under a brand name where it wasn't obvious they were toxic unless you read the warnings on the container.



Smitty, I don't have a full list of things I'd consider unsafe. You give a good example.  If someone reports they think you're selling something unsafe, I'll surely contact you and we'll talk about it. If you're worried about some dire consequence if you step outside the line, don't. We'll work it out. That goes for all the rules you've been asking about. We'll get used to things as we go along. The mods are not sitting around waiting to drop the hammer on people.

So, relax. We're not trying to sneak up behind anyone and bonk them on the head. :biggrin:


----------



## MesquiteMan

Oh but Jeff, that is what most people think of the mods!  They think we are cruising the forum just looking for something to delete just for the thrill of power.  Believe me, I have had people accuse me of this in nastygrams!


----------



## EBorraga

Everyone from Texas is on a power trip Curtis:biggrin:. In all seriousness I think i've lost the last few brain cells i have reading this whole thread. And I definetly wouldn't want to be in the management teams shoes. I had a hard enough time with the casing contest.


----------



## Smitty37

*Not concerned*



jeff said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> 
> So you do have a sense of humor after all.
> 
> I was thinking more on the more mundane line of perhaps it might be referring to offering toxic materials under a brand name where it wasn't obvious they were toxic unless you read the warnings on the container.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Smitty, I don't have a full list of things I'd consider unsafe. You give a good example. If someone reports they think you're selling something unsafe, I'll surely contact you and we'll talk about it. If you're worried about some dire consequence if you step outside the line, don't. We'll work it out. That goes for all the rules you've been asking about. We'll get used to things as we go along. The mods are not sitting around waiting to drop the hammer on people.
> 
> So, relax. We're not trying to sneak up behind anyone and bonk them on the head. :biggrin:
Click to expand...

  Oh I am not concerned. My personal use would be  more like this -- I might sell my mini lathe and any rotating power tool is inherently unsafe to an uninformed user (even an informed user who gets careless) and I have three well scarred fingers on my left hand that will never fully recover from combat with my table saw blade -- the blade won.:tongue:
just want to make sure that's not what we're talking about.


----------



## Smitty37

:biggrin:





MesquiteMan said:


> Oh but Jeff, that is what most people think of the mods! They think we are cruising the forum just looking for something to delete just for the thrill of power. Believe me, I have had people accuse me of this in nastygrams!


 
Mmmmmm ammunition for our next "discussion".....


----------



## MesquiteMan

Smitty, the basis for that rule is the no-polluting section.  What we are saying is that if you see something that is unsafe and have a real issue with it, rather than posting in the thread that it is unsafe, use the yellow triangle and report it or send the original poster a PM.  That is all that rule is for.


----------



## Texatdurango

MesquiteMan said:


> Oh but Jeff, that is what most people think of the mods! They think we are cruising the forum just looking for something to delete just for the thrill of power. Believe me, I have had people accuse me of this in nastygrams!


 
Well, maybe not ALL of you! :biggrin:


----------



## alphageek

Texatdurango said:


> MesquiteMan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh but Jeff, that is what most people think of the mods! They think we are cruising the forum just looking for something to delete just for the thrill of power. Believe me, I have had people accuse me of this in nastygrams!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, maybe not ALL of you! :biggrin:
Click to expand...


Yep... Just 2 of the 3 mods are like this... Just guess who the bad ones are. :ghost:


----------



## tbroye

I have had posts deleted by 3 mods so it is equal won't say who they are as I don't want them to get a big EGO.:biggrin:


----------



## Smitty37

*Well Well*

Yea me too....I'd never tell which three either.:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:


----------



## Timebandit

Smitty37 said:


> Yea me too....I'd never tell which three either.:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:



Me three!!!!............but I will tell........it was Mesquiteman, Mesquiteman AND Mesquiteman............there out to get me I tell you :biggrin:


----------



## Smitty37

*BTW*



Timebandit said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yea me too....I'd never tell which three either.:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Me three!!!!............but I will tell........it was Mesquiteman, Mesquiteman AND Mesquiteman............there out to get me to tell you :biggrin:
Click to expand...

 
A few posts back you said you never bought anything from me....well you did, you just haven't paid me yet.:biggrin::biggrin: OK so technically it was a trade....


----------



## MesquiteMan

Timebandit said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yea me too....I'd never tell which three either.:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Me three!!!!............but I will tell........it was Mesquiteman, Mesquiteman AND Mesquiteman............there out to get me to tell you :biggrin:
Click to expand...


I forgot about yours.  I guess I can add another mark on my gunstock!


----------



## robutacion

OK guys and gals, it seems that the "hot blooded" reactions to the new classifieds rules by some of you, are dissipating as expected, there are many upset people out there that are reacting upon their own interpretation of what the new rules are but, let me give you a free piece of advice, spend the time reading this threat from the very first post, even before you have read Jeff's new classified rules, located under "rules" (I put this here as I, and many others had a hard time in finding its location, initially...!), seat back, digest, and have a coup of coffee, then read the new rules, you will be glad that you took the time...!

I have certainly did that and when I decided to read Jeff's new rules threads, the whole thing made a lot more sense...!

I find myself in a predicament, not in relation to the "pay if you want to sell...!" or "advertising costs money ...!" but in relation to what is considered "advertising"...!  

There as been a few examples discussed in this thread, which I have some issues but, in my particular situation, where I participate directly and indirectly with so many facets of the pen making world.  As an IAP member, I post in all sorts of subjects, I offer suggestions on pen making procedures and wood turning in general BUT, my strongest contribution and ability is in providing people with information about wood as a natural product.

That, takes me to the next step which is, making those woods available to anyone that wants them, regardless of location so, in between my experience as a wood worker and my passion for woods, I find myself talking about them "extensively", at the first opportunity.

Do I only talk about the woods that I sell...??? absolutely not, and in most cases, the last thing on my mind is the commercial/business side of things, where I openly speak about the product and its applications and not how much of it I have and how I can sell it to you.

In "some people" opinion/views, If I'm talking about it is because I want you to buy it, I'm not going to waste my time trying to convince them that they couldn't not be further from the truth, however, I'm not going to accept that as the reality.

With the new Classifieds rules, the confusing and some times personal interpretation of what one can consider as "advertisement", and the attempt by Jeff to "control" some of the "wild birds around" (and please, don't make to explain what I mean, here...!), something that even I could see, as "sneaky", I'm a little concern on how, I'm going to be interpreted as...!!!

Stop talking about what I know best, is not an option, ain't going to happen, unless I'm banned (that has happened before...!), my tendency to evidentiate what I do and say with pictures, has got me in hot water many times before, while some members, wouldn't have it in any other way so, my concerns are not of a serious nature but are of interest to me so, I would like hear Jeff's and others with a hand on the pie, opinions...!  What do guys like me should do...???

Actually, the first thing that I wanted to write at the beginning of this post was a question, which I don't recall to have read the answer anywhere yet (I may be wrong...!), the question is this, when are these new rules going to the activated...???

I apologize by focusing my post on my situation as a member and a vendor, there has been other very personal examples explained and discussed here so I hope that I'm not out of place...!

Cheers
George


----------



## Geppetto

*Partially blind from reading this thread*

It is my understanding that the reasons for the changes in the Classified / Marketplace rules are as follows:



Limit the thread clutter on the     main page.
Reduce the number of vendors who     use the resources of this site to sell their wares but don't     otherwise contribute.
Generate some revenue for IAP     projects and resources.
 

 Possible Solutions / Suggestions


Is there a way to set up the     Regular Classifieds so that changes or updates to Regular Ads don't     get bumped to the Main Page?  This way the vendor could respond to     the buyer without cluttering the main page.
& 3.  Could you see your way     clear to reducing the rate in exchange for Library or Wiki     contributions or something similar?  This would give the smaller     vendors an option to reduce their cost and the non-contributing vendors would still have to pay$ their way.  Further, it would generate     content for IAP.
 
 P.S.     Thanks to  Owner, Mods and Admins for your time and effort.


----------



## tbroye

George

I read some where here that the beginning of the new rules and forums is October 1, 2011. It is at the end of the first paragraph of this tread.


----------



## witz1976

George, 

I do not seem to see an issue with you giving advice as long as you you don't say that you sell the product or make mention as to where you can buy it.  I honestly don't think Jeff is trying to control anyone, rather than he is trying to redirect what IAP was for originally, which is to share knowledge on turning pens not creating a forum where it is all about selling.  

I honestly never seen you giving advice in hopes you would make a sale.  But, I have been proven wrong many times....


----------



## jeff

Geppetto said:


> It is my understanding that the reasons for the changes in the Classified / Marketplace rules are as follows:
> 
> 
> 
> Limit the thread clutter on the     main page.
> Reduce the number of vendors who     use the resources of this site to sell their wares but don't     otherwise contribute.
> Generate some revenue for IAP     projects and resources.
> 
> 
> Possible Solutions / Suggestions
> 
> 
> Is there a way to set up the     Regular Classifieds so that changes or updates to Regular Ads don't     get bumped to the Main Page?  This way the vendor could respond to     the buyer without cluttering the main page.
> & 3.  Could you see your way     clear to reducing the rate in exchange for Library or Wiki     contributions or something similar?  This would give the smaller     vendors an option to reduce their cost and the non-contributing vendors would still have to pay$ their way.  Further, it would generate     content for IAP.
> 
> P.S.     Thanks to  Owner, Mods and Admins for your time and effort.



The classifieds are not now in the main page new posts feed.

One of the things we would like to do if we had the money is compensate authors. 

I'd like to see some calculations that show how, if the classifieds are used efficiently and intelligently, that the charges are hard on anyone. When we set the cost, we used historical data from the classifieds to determine what sort of burden this would be.


----------



## dhallnc

Would it be acceptable to posy an inquiry such as:

"Where can I find product x? Please send PM."  

I know this would open the door for anyone including vendors to contact me via PM, which would be my intent.


----------



## jeff

dhallnc said:


> Would it be acceptable to posy an inquiry such as:
> 
> "Where can I find product x? Please send PM."
> 
> I know this would open the door for anyone including vendors to contact me via PM, which would be my intent.



You can post that in Casual Conversation or Penturning or wherever you feel you'll get the best response. There is no dedicated forum for those sort of posts. There just aren't enough of them to warrant a separate section.


----------



## glycerine

robutacion said:


> Stop talking about what I know best, is not an option, ain't going to happen, unless I'm banned (that has happened before...!), my tendency to evidentiate what I do and say with pictures, has got me in hot water many times before, while some members, wouldn't have it in any other way so, my concerns are not of a serious nature but are of interest to me so, I would like hear Jeff's and others with a hand on the pie, opinions...! What do guys like me should do...???


 
This is not THAT kind of web site!!!  :biggrin:


----------



## shadetree_1

Jeff,

Can you make it so that when a person reports his post as closed that it is closed and moved to the closed file right away, as opposed to waiting for the mods to move it ? That would help to ease the crowding in the classifieds, because as most everyone that posts in the classified will attest to, sometimes it takes a couple of days for the mods to move the posts and if I understand the new rules correctly, with the limit on posts , you can't post a new one until the old one has been moved by the mods?

I understand that the mods have lives to live also and do this in what spare time they have,( and if they have a family, or a business, that time is very limited,) this would allow the little guys like me, to be able to offer more to the members.

I don't turn anymore as with Lindas illness we can't afford the tools, but we still get a kick out of seeing our woods turned into a beautiful pen.

I hope this can be done.
Thanks
Joe and Linda
from Wittmann AZ


----------



## jeff

robutacion said:


> OK guys and gals, it seems that the "hot blooded" reactions to the new classifieds rules by some of you, are dissipating as expected, there are many upset people out there that are reacting upon their own interpretation of what the new rules are but, let me give you a free piece of advice, spend the time reading this threat from the very first post, even before you have read Jeff's new classified rules, located under "rules" (I put this here as I, and many others had a hard time in finding its location, initially...!), seat back, digest, and have a coup of coffee, then read the new rules, you will be glad that you took the time...!
> 
> I have certainly did that and when I decided to read Jeff's new rules threads, the whole thing made a lot more sense...!
> 
> I find myself in a predicament, not in relation to the "pay if you want to sell...!" or "advertising costs money ...!" but in relation to what is considered "advertising"...!
> 
> There as been a few examples discussed in this thread, which I have some issues but, in my particular situation, where I participate directly and indirectly with so many facets of the pen making world.  As an IAP member, I post in all sorts of subjects, I offer suggestions on pen making procedures and wood turning in general BUT, my strongest contribution and ability is in providing people with information about wood as a natural product.
> 
> That, takes me to the next step which is, making those woods available to anyone that wants them, regardless of location so, in between my experience as a wood worker and my passion for woods, I find myself talking about them "extensively", at the first opportunity.
> 
> Do I only talk about the woods that I sell...??? absolutely not, and in most cases, the last thing on my mind is the commercial/business side of things, where I openly speak about the product and its applications and not how much of it I have and how I can sell it to you.
> 
> In "some people" opinion/views, If I'm talking about it is because I want you to buy it, I'm not going to waste my time trying to convince them that they couldn't not be further from the truth, however, I'm not going to accept that as the reality.
> 
> With the new Classifieds rules, the confusing and some times personal interpretation of what one can consider as "advertisement", and the attempt by Jeff to "control" some of the "wild birds around" (and please, don't make to explain what I mean, here...!), something that even I could see, as "sneaky", I'm a little concern on how, I'm going to be interpreted as...!!!
> 
> Stop talking about what I know best, is not an option, ain't going to happen, unless I'm banned (that has happened before...!), my tendency to evidentiate what I do and say with pictures, has got me in hot water many times before, while some members, wouldn't have it in any other way so, my concerns are not of a serious nature but are of interest to me so, I would like hear Jeff's and others with a hand on the pie, opinions...!  What do guys like me should do...???
> 
> Actually, the first thing that I wanted to write at the beginning of this post was a question, which I don't recall to have read the answer anywhere yet (I may be wrong...!), the question is this, when are these new rules going to the activated...???
> 
> I apologize by focusing my post on my situation as a member and a vendor, there has been other very personal examples explained and discussed here so I hope that I'm not out of place...!
> 
> Cheers
> George



George

The new rules begin Oct 1.

Did you read the Product Reference Rules?

I think it clearly addresses your questions, but I am always interested in specific new words that make things clearer. Maybe the reason it's not crystal clear is that I am not good at explaining what I think is common sense. I realize what is common sense to me may not be to anyone else! :biggrin:

Talk all you want about wood. Educate us, help us use it, share your knowledge. Just don't post links to your IAP sales or off-site product catalogs, prices, or blatantly shout that you sell what you're discussing.

Does that clear it up at all?


----------



## OKLAHOMAN

*Placeing an ad once a week!*

Joe that's a good question and I also would like that done. If I want to post an ad once a week on Friday in the regular classified and report each week that the previous weeks ad is to be closed Thursday so I can place my new ad on Friday will we be allowed to place the new ad if the Mods haven't closed the old ad?  





shadetree_1 said:


> Jeff,
> 
> Can you make it so that when a person reports his post as closed that it is closed and moved to the closed file right away, as opposed to waiting for the mods to move it ? That would help to ease the crowding in the classifieds, because as most everyone that posts in the classified will attest to, sometimes it takes a couple of days for the mods to move the posts and if I understand the new rules correctly, with the limit on posts , you can't post a new one until the old one has been moved by the mods?
> 
> I understand that the mods have lives to live also and do this in what spare time they have,( and if they have a family, or a business, that time is very limited,) this would allow the little guys like me, to be able to offer more to the members.
> 
> I don't turn anymore as with Lindas illness we can't afford the tools, but we still get a kick out of seeing our woods turned into a beautiful pen.
> 
> I hope this can be done.
> Thanks
> Joe and Linda
> from Wittmann AZ


----------



## Gin N' Tonic

Hey! 

How about those Packers!


Where's the pickle pen when you need it.


----------



## Texatdurango

Gin N' Tonic said:


> Hey!
> 
> How about those Packers!
> 
> 
> Where's the pickle pen when you need it.


 
Now just how many do you think will remember the pickle pen? :biggrin:


----------



## mredburn

Would a new moderator, one that is primarily responsible for the  threads in the classified be in Order.  Some one who has the time to continuously monitor the site? Or at least is on here almost all the time?


----------



## ed4copies

Regarding closing old ads, it seems, as a practical matter, that if you request an ad be closed on Thursday, then place an ad on Friday, the only way the Friday ad would be deleted is by a mod.

IF this were to happen, you could courteously explain you asked for the past ad to be closed, yesterday.  I am confident the mods would check and realize you complied with the rules, and close one and restore the new one (if it has already been deleted).

No real harm done.

Seems we (vendors) should be prepared to "roll with the punches" for a while, let the Mod team do their jobs.

I'm pretty confident they will be attempting to ASSIST us in this transition, not fight us!!!!

Once again I would like to thank all the folks who help run the IAP and, once again, reiterate Exotic Blanks will be happy to pay for ads to support the IAP!!!  And no, this will not affect our participation in the Bash.

Like all changes, let's give this a chance!!  So far, Jeff and the others seem somewhat flexible--as problems develop let's allow them to SOLVE the problem with mutual co-operation.

I think they will!!


----------



## OKLAHOMAN

I totally agree with all you said, just was thinking that if there were a way that an ad could be closed without adding to the Mods already heavy work load. Classic will as you  said will" roll with the punches" and happily will pay for advertising to help benefit the IAP. In no way was I saying that the Mods Job wasn't going to be done in a acceptable manner, just wondering if there was a way we could help.  



ed4copies said:


> Regarding closing old ads, it seems, as a practical matter, that if you request an ad be closed on Thursday, then place an ad on Friday, the only way the Friday ad would be deleted is by a mod.
> 
> IF this were to happen, you could courteously explain you asked for the past ad to be closed, yesterday. I am confident the mods would check and realize you complied with the rules, and close one and restore the new one (if it has already been deleted).
> 
> No real harm done.
> 
> Seems we (vendors) should be prepared to "roll with the punches" for a while, let the Mod team do their jobs.
> 
> I'm pretty confident they will be attempting to ASSIST us in this transition, not fight us!!!!
> 
> Once again I would like to thank all the folks who help run the IAP and, once again, reiterate Exotic Blanks will be happy to pay for ads to support the IAP!!! And no, this will not affect our participation in the Bash.
> 
> Like all changes, let's give this a chance!! So far, Jeff and the others seem somewhat flexible--as problems develop let's allow them to SOLVE the problem with mutual co-operation.
> 
> I think they will!!


----------



## ed4copies

Roy,
I was not attempting to take shots at you or any other comments made.

Just an observation about "normal reaction to change".
First we don't like it.
Second we resist it.

So, we've gotten past that in the past two days, so now "let's help make it work"!!!

ALL of us, not you or me or any other ONE person.


----------



## MesquiteMan

There is no automated way to do it.  I do believe that with the changes to the rules to prevent advertising and the subsequent "fighting in pms" that occur due to dealing with this advertising, that we will be freed up more to deal with closed ads.  Some folks have been posting and closing 2 ads PER DAY.  There was no ramification to not getting right on moving the ads so sometimes, we allowed them to set until it was more convenient for us to move them.  With the new rules, we understand that not moving the ads will cause issues for the person wanting to create a new ad so you will see the ads get moved much more quickly.  However, if I see or get complaints that we are not responding quickly enough, I will certainly ad another moderator.  My goal is to have all closed ad request handled in less than 2 hours, hopefully quicker.  

If you were to expect a dedicated moderator to move ads that is here most of the time (remember this is an international site so it would have to be 24/7) then we would have to go to a schedule with assigned shifts.  This gets into the realm of a job and you will not find anyone who is willing to volunteer their time and have to have a set schedule that is dependable.  That would mean we would have to start paying the moderator staff.  Either that or bring on 10 new moderators to try to make sure someone is always here and that would be a complete nightmare.

As is now, myself and my 2 assistants all receive an e-mail every time a post is reported, including closed ad request via the yellow triangle.  I know that Dean and myself at least both have that e-mail set to come to our iPhones (that Jeff pays for...just kidding).  That means I get an e-mail 24/7 anytime someone reports a post.  As long as I am not out hunting or fishing where I do not have my phone with me, I can deal with the request right away via ForumRunner.  So basically, we are on call 24/7 already for the most part.


----------



## Dave Turner

After reading and re-reading the product reference rules, I interpret them to mean:

Outside the classified forums, a member is not allowed to reference any individual or company with whom they have a beneficial relationship. As long as no reference is made, those with beneficial relationships are encouraged to participate.

Definitions:

reference - to mention a name, pseudonym, website, other identifying information (such as proprietary product names), or provide a link to a web page related to that individual or company.

beneficial relationship - you or a close relative directly or indirectly benefit if that individual or company increases business 


Is this a reasonable paraphrase of the rule?


----------



## maxwell_smart007

My rotary dial phone doesn't receive texts for some reason (yes, I still have a rotary dial phone)...so I don't get to move posts as quickly as Dean and Curtis - but I help as best I can...

I'm not on 24-7, but we'll do our best...a small degree of patience will be necessary, however...(tough in this 'I want it done now' cutlure, admittedly)

As long as everyone realizes that we're here as volunteers, ready to help, things should go smoothly.


----------



## ed4copies

Dave Turner said:


> After reading and re-reading the product reference rules, I interpret them to mean:
> 
> Outside the classified forums, a member is not allowed to reference any individual or company with whom they have a beneficial relationship. As long as no reference is made, those with beneficial relationships are encouraged to participate.
> 
> Definitions:
> 
> reference - to mention a name, pseudonym, website, other identifying information (such as proprietary product names), or provide a link to a web page related to that individual or company.
> 
> beneficial relationship - you or a close relative directly or indirectly benefit if that individual or company increases business
> 
> 
> Is this a reasonable paraphrase of the rule?



That phrase, alone will cause some problems.  So, take it with a grain of salt.  Berea asserts that the names of some of their pens, including "sierra" are "proprietary".  Others would assert that they have equal right to the name.

We are not always aware of the battles that are raging over words we think we know how to define.

Just an observation.


----------



## wood-of-1kind

Texatdurango said:


> Gin N' Tonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hey!
> 
> 
> 
> Where's the pickle pen when you need it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now just how many do you think will remember the pickle pen? :biggrin:
Click to expand...


I remember it. Do I get a prize??:wink: And, NO I don't want a pickle pen as the prize.:biggrin:


----------



## Dave Turner

> reference - to mention a name, pseudonym, website, other identifying information (such as proprietary product names), or provide a link to a web page related to that individual or company.


Agree. Bad choice of words. Should read "(such as product names associated with less than three vendors)".

This prevents people from plugging products that only a few sell, which is equivalent to plugging the vendors themselves. Whether you want to make it three or some other number is open for discussion, but I think a number should be set.


----------



## Smitty37

*I agree*



ed4copies said:


> Dave Turner said:
> 
> 
> 
> After reading and re-reading the product reference rules, I interpret them to mean:
> 
> Outside the classified forums, a member is not allowed to reference any individual or company with whom they have a beneficial relationship. As long as no reference is made, those with beneficial relationships are encouraged to participate.
> 
> Definitions:
> 
> reference - to mention a name, pseudonym, website, other identifying information (such as proprietary product names), or provide a link to a web page related to that individual or company.
> 
> beneficial relationship - you or a close relative directly or indirectly benefit if that individual or company increases business
> 
> 
> Is this a reasonable paraphrase of the rule?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That phrase, alone will cause some problems. So, take it with a grain of salt. Berea asserts that the names of some of their pens, including "sierra" are "proprietary". Others would assert that they have equal right to the name.
> 
> We are not always aware of the battles that are raging over words we think we know how to define.
> 
> Just an observation.
Click to expand...

 PSI also claims some but not all of their names as proprietary.  An interesting problem might be that business relationships do not have to be disclosed and frequently are not.  For good business reasons two vendors may not want to disclose that they are cooperating in some business activities.


----------



## Smitty37

*lunch*



wood-of-1kind said:


> Texatdurango said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gin N' Tonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hey!
> 
> 
> 
> Where's the pickle pen when you need it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now just how many do you think will remember the pickle pen? :biggrin:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I remember it. Do I get a prize??:wink: And, NO I don't want a pickle pen as the prize.:biggrin:
Click to expand...

I think I'll have a pickle for lunch. Vlastic Kosher Dill I believe - not as good as we got from the NY street vendors, but not bad.


----------



## Andrew_K99

Smitty37 said:


> wood-of-1kind said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Texatdurango said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gin N' Tonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hey!
> 
> 
> 
> Where's the pickle pen when you need it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now just how many do you think will remember the pickle pen? :biggrin:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I remember it. Do I get a prize??:wink: And, NO I don't want a pickle pen as the prize.:biggrin:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I think I'll have a pickle for lunch. *Vlastic Kosher Dill* I believe - not as good as we got from the NY street vendors, but not bad.
Click to expand...

 Careful, I don't think Vlastic paid for that ad.


----------



## soligen

Andrew_K99 said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> wood-of-1kind said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Texatdurango said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gin N' Tonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hey!
> 
> 
> 
> Where's the pickle pen when you need it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now just how many do you think will remember the pickle pen? :biggrin:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I remember it. Do I get a prize??:wink: And, NO I don't want a pickle pen as the prize.:biggrin:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I think I'll have a pickle for lunch. *Vlastic Kosher Dill* I believe - not as good as we got from the NY street vendors, but not bad.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Careful, I don't think Vlastic paid for that ad.
Click to expand...

 
Talk about thread divergence LOL ..... Should we now just all all the new classified rules the "Pickle Rules"?


----------



## ed4copies

I hope they didn't pay for it---their NAME is misspelled!


----------



## Smitty37

*Tough rule to figure*

I am having a hard time digesting the reference rule - I am going to use you for an example Ed...

Ed sells a lot of things I have bought blanks from Ed that I use for my personal pens and do not resell - I don't sell pens very much either and don't offer them for sale at all any more.

I buy other things from Ed that I do resell.  I also compete with Ed on a couple of items

Does this rule apply to commenting about blanks or just to the items I resell.  I have no dog in the hunt with respect to the blanks exotics sells.

I already don't comment on competing products so that's no issue for me.
The items I resell I can't make reference.

A lot of people here buy blanks for resale as part of the products they make for sale.  Are they all prohibited from making reference to where they got the blanks?

This isn't a big personal issue for me because I seldom reference other vendors but it does look like it could be a cat with it's tail caught in the washing machine (wringer type like my mom had).


----------



## Smitty37

*No relationship*



Andrew_K99 said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> wood-of-1kind said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Texatdurango said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gin N' Tonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hey!
> 
> 
> 
> Where's the pickle pen when you need it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now just how many do you think will remember the pickle pen? :biggrin:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I remember it. Do I get a prize??:wink: And, NO I don't want a pickle pen as the prize.:biggrin:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I think I'll have a pickle for lunch. *Vlastic Kosher Dill* I believe - not as good as we got from the NY street vendors, but not bad.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Careful, I don't think Vlastic paid for that ad.
Click to expand...

 
True but I have no known relatives on either my side or my wife's side of the family who work for, deliver to, own stock in or wave as they drive past the Vlastic factory.  

I must add a disclaimer though - with a name like Smith I do have to acknowledge that there is a definite probablility that I have at least 2 or 3 third cousins once or twice removed who do.  My father had 14 aunts and uncles and over 70 first cousins, My mother had 8 aunts and uncles and over 60 first cousins (all of those are 1st cousins once removed to me.  I had 20 aunts and uncles and 60 first cousins.  So a little arithmetic reveals that down one or two generations I have one big batch of cousins - not to mention my neices and nephews along with the grands and great grands.


----------



## tbroye

17 days left.  Let's keep the thread going.


----------



## Smitty37

*hmmmm*



ed4copies said:


> I hope they didn't pay for it---their NAME is misspelled!


Of course it is - they are not paying me to advertise - if they want it spelled correctly they need to at least send me a cents off coupon.


----------



## glycerine

ed4copies said:


> I hope they didn't pay for it---their NAME is misspelled!


 
Ah ha!  Our first loophole.  So if you referred to "exotics" as "eggs hot ticks" then you wouldn't be breaking the rules...  :biggrin:


----------



## Dave Turner

Smitty37 said:


> I am having a hard time digesting the reference rule - I am going to use you for an example Ed...
> 
> Ed sells a lot of things I have bought blanks from Ed that I use for my personal pens and do not resell - I don't sell pens very much either and don't offer them for sale at all any more.
> 
> I buy other things from Ed that I do resell.  I also compete with Ed on a couple of items
> 
> Does this rule apply to commenting about blanks or just to the items I resell.  I have no dog in the hunt with respect to the blanks exotics sells.
> 
> I already don't comment on competing products so that's no issue for me.
> The items I resell I can't make reference.
> 
> A lot of people here buy blanks for resale as part of the products they make for sale.  Are they all prohibited from making reference to where they got the blanks?



"Outside the classified forums, a member is not allowed to reference any  individual or company with whom they have a beneficial relationship. As  long as no reference is made, those with beneficial relationships are  encouraged to participate." (I'm quoting myself here - this isn't the official rule)

My take on this (which is probably worth the paper this is written on): 

Merely buying products from a company does not establish a beneficial relationship as long as you are getting the same treatment as anyone else in IAP. If you are getting a special deal that others in the community cannot get, then you have a beneficial relationship.

In your specific case, you state that you compete with Ed on a few items. This establishes a beneficial relationship. Theoretically, if Ed's business does poorly, you have the potential to benefit on those competitive items.

As long as you don't reference Ed's business or your own business, you can comment on whatever you want. You can also comment on any products as long as they are not relatively exclusive to Ed's or your business.

I'd be interested in Jeff's take on this.

Dave


----------



## Texatdurango

glycerine said:


> ed4copies said:
> 
> 
> 
> I hope they didn't pay for it---their NAME is misspelled!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ah ha! Our first loophole. So if you referred to "exotics" as "eggs hot ticks" then you wouldn't be breaking the rules...  :biggrin:
Click to expand...

 
Jeremy don't give the vendors any more ideas, Im sure they already have the rules totally figured out as well as all the loopholes and ways to get around them! :biggrin:

Remember, it was either Jeff or Curtis who said several pages back that most of these changes we're experiencing were caused by a few bad apples.  Keep in mind that we still have the same barrel and the same apples are still in it......... even the bad apples!


----------



## edman2

As I read these rules they apply only to sellers about products they tend to gain income from.  As a non seller, I can reference my source for blanks, kits, etc as long as I don't editorialize (X vendor is wonderful, good looking, and hand delivers my stuff all the way across the country).  BUT, I can say this is a (kit name) with (blank name) from (vendor name).  That will answer many of the questions that always come when a pen is shown.
If I want to tell how wonderful X vendor is, I can use the Cheers and Jeers forum under those rules.





Dave Turner said:


> After reading and re-reading the product reference rules, I interpret them to mean:
> 
> Outside the classified forums, a member is not allowed to reference any individual or company with whom they have a beneficial relationship. As long as no reference is made, those with beneficial relationships are encouraged to participate.
> 
> Definitions:
> 
> reference - to mention a name, pseudonym, website, other identifying information (such as proprietary product names), or provide a link to a web page related to that individual or company.
> 
> beneficial relationship - you or a close relative directly or indirectly benefit if that individual or company increases business
> 
> 
> Is this a reasonable paraphrase of the rule?


----------



## Padre

MesquiteMan said:


> Oh but Jeff, that is what most people think of the mods!  They think we are cruising the forum just looking for something to delete just for the thrill of power.  Believe me, I have had people accuse me of this in nastygrams!



Curtis, you and the other mods do an incredible job, and get a lot of grief for it.  But, thank you for doing it.


----------



## ed4copies

Notice a theme??

A handful of people complain about advertising.
A handful of people complain about the mods.

Maybe we are approaching this wrong---get rid of the "handful of people"!!


----------



## Texatdurango

ed4copies said:


> Notice a theme??
> 
> A handful of people complain about advertising.
> A handful of people complain about the mods.
> 
> Maybe we are approaching this wrong---get rid of the "handful of people"!!


 
Or........... the bad apples!


----------



## maxwell_smart007

Or, stop bickering! 

I like my option!


----------



## Timebandit

Smitty37 said:


> Timebandit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yea me too....I'd never tell which three either.:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Me three!!!!............but I will tell........it was Mesquiteman, Mesquiteman AND Mesquiteman............there out to get me to tell you :biggrin:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> A few posts back you said you never bought anything from me....well you did, you just haven't paid me yet.:biggrin::biggrin: OK so technically it was a trade....
Click to expand...


LOL!! Yep theres a Loopole!!! No money was exchanged!!!:biggrin: It was a trade........................that will be fullfiled this week:redface::biggrin:


----------



## bitshird

OK I'll comment on my feelings about this debacle, I do have a dog in the hunt, and I'll pay the price for the premium adds. 
I hate to say this, but I agree with Ed. Get rid of the few bad apples. Let us not forget that one of the finest most creative and innovative pen turners was booted off the site, AND he was a definite value, and a tremendous loss to us all. 
 I've noticed the largest gripes coming not from many of the Business class dealers and a few questions that actually are valid concerns from some small individuals, that most likely will get hurt with this new policy. I know that some of the business folk do rather well selling their custom cast blanks, and I've seen a few pretty shady postings in places other than the classifieds, These were worded in such a way that they just barely skirted the existing policy's, I'm not going to single out any single person because there have been several, in fact 3 or 4 come to mind immediately. 
 I do find the nitpicking getting to be beyond monotonous, and plainly isn't going to accomplish any thing, other than roll out more of the B.S that has been coming out of a few posters keyboards who really haven't been here long at all, and almost smells of shill posting, just to keep this stirred up..
This is Jeff's site, we can either play by his rules and quit beating this horse, which apparently died from user stupidity, Or go to another site, there are several, I do feel sorry for people like Alice, and her Corian sales, and also for some of the small sellers of blanks, I don't think they can afford to pay the 5.00 fee, But there is also a free option as I read the DOC (which gave me a headache).
 hopefully this will cut down on the MODS getting bombarded with requests to stop user A from posting every time they find some new way of grabbing our cash. 
The only problem I see is that the pictures be hosted on the IAP, For me this is no problem, but with only 48 hours to place the red X on a picture of blanks, doesn't seem a long enough period particularly when the user is paying for a week or two weeks on their add.
Jeff, Curtis, Andrew and Dean, I wouldn't be in your shoes if I were to be the one getting the money for the adds!!,
Now back to the conflict. 
I'm going to try and do a little work!!


----------



## edman2

The best post of the entire thread!  




maxwell_smart007 said:


> Or, stop bickering!
> 
> I like my option!


----------



## OKLAHOMAN

Works for me, I'll volunteer to moderate the classified:wink:, I see no conflict of interest, we'll do it alphabetically....lets see  C comes before E or I :biggrin: Hey that really works for me:tongue:. Just kidding folks, looks like Jeff and the Mods have it covered, thanks Curtis for clearing that up.



MesquiteMan said:


> There is no automated way to do it. I do believe that with the changes to the rules to prevent advertising and the subsequent "fighting in pms" that occur due to dealing with this advertising, that we will be freed up more to deal with closed ads. Some folks have been posting and closing 2 ads PER DAY. There was no ramification to not getting right on moving the ads so sometimes, we allowed them to set until it was more convenient for us to move them. With the new rules, we understand that not moving the ads will cause issues for the person wanting to create a new ad so you will see the ads get moved much more quickly. However, if I see or get complaints that we are not responding quickly enough, I will certainly ad another moderator. My goal is to have all closed ad request handled in less than 2 hours, hopefully quicker.
> 
> If you were to expect a dedicated moderator to move ads that is here most of the time (remember this is an international site so it would have to be 24/7) then we would have to go to a schedule with assigned shifts. This gets into the realm of a job and you will not find anyone who is willing to volunteer their time and have to have a set schedule that is dependable. That would mean we would have to start paying the moderator staff. Either that or bring on 10 new moderators to try to make sure someone is always here and that would be a complete nightmare.
> 
> As is now, myself and my 2 assistants all receive an e-mail every time a post is reported, including closed ad request via the yellow triangle. I know that Dean and myself at least both have that e-mail set to come to our iPhones (that Jeff pays for...just kidding). That means I get an e-mail 24/7 anytime someone reports a post. As long as I am not out hunting or fishing where I do not have my phone with me, I can deal with the request right away via ForumRunner. So basically, we are on call 24/7 already for the most part.


----------



## GoodTurns

ed4copies said:


> Notice a theme??
> 
> A handful of people complain about advertising.
> A handful of people complain about the mods.
> 
> Maybe we are approaching this wrong---get rid of the "handful of people"!!



one of the first rules of business...80% of your business comes from 20% of your customers....we're probably closer to 95% of complaints and "moderatings" coming from 5% of users.   Unfortunately, much of society today is governed by the screamers on the fringes or the instigators who just want to pick a fight to see their name in lights and not the masses....

The VAST majority of IAP users are 1) not business sellers 2) happy to work with the rules laid down by our host and 3) grateful for the many thing we gain from the site.  

I sell casually, like many here.... my selling will not materially change from the rule changes...I'll have to click "steals and deals" instead of "Individual Classifieds" or "Trades and Giveaways", wow, that's gonna be tough.  

We have about 20 folks here who consistently sell in the current Business Classifieds, many have already chimed in that they are happy to work within the new rules.  Do the math on this... if each of them ran a premium ad each week, that's $800 a month to the site... how many of you would even be willing to listen to the **** that has been dished over this for that kind of money...ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU DON'T EVEN KEEP IT!

This site has proven several times over the last few years that it can and will survive the loss of "important" people.... amazingly, we now have "new" important people.... the art of penmaking grows, changes, moves, and we constantly (not a plug and I have no beneficial arrangement with anyone named constant :wink evolve.  One of the many reasons behind this overhaul is a fantastically talented caster who got over on many of us a couple of years back.... we now have several new "superstars" of casting.  If people are upset enough to run screaming from the building, new people will run in to find out what the excitement is all about!

I am grateful to Jeff and his team and thank them for their calm and balanced responses to the many challenges they have seen over the last few days...I am VERY grateful that I only see the "front-end" of this...I can't imagine the PM traffic!



maxwell_smart007 said:


> Or, stop bickering!
> 
> I like my option!



I vote with Andrew!  Picnic at my house!


----------



## alphageek

OKLAHOMAN said:


> Works for me, I'll volunteer to moderate the classified:wink:, I see no conflict of interest, we'll do it alphabetically....lets see  C comes before E or I :biggrin: Hey that really works for me:tongue:. Just kidding folks, looks like Jeff and the Mods have it covered, thanks Curtis for clearing that up.
> 
> 
> 
> MesquiteMan said:
> 
> 
> 
> There is no automated way to do it. I do believe that with the changes to the rules to prevent advertising and the subsequent "fighting in pms" that occur due to dealing with this advertising, that we will be freed up more to deal with closed ads. Some folks have been posting and closing 2 ads PER DAY. There was no ramification to not getting right on moving the ads so sometimes, we allowed them to set until it was more convenient for us to move them. With the new rules, we understand that not moving the ads will cause issues for the person wanting to create a new ad so you will see the ads get moved much more quickly. However, if I see or get complaints that we are not responding quickly enough, I will certainly ad another moderator. My goal is to have all closed ad request handled in less than 2 hours, hopefully quicker.
> 
> If you were to expect a dedicated moderator to move ads that is here most of the time (remember this is an international site so it would have to be 24/7) then we would have to go to a schedule with assigned shifts. This gets into the realm of a job and you will not find anyone who is willing to volunteer their time and have to have a set schedule that is dependable. That would mean we would have to start paying the moderator staff. Either that or bring on 10 new moderators to try to make sure someone is always here and that would be a complete nightmare.
> 
> As is now, myself and my 2 assistants all receive an e-mail every time a post is reported, including closed ad request via the yellow triangle. I know that Dean and myself at least both have that e-mail set to come to our iPhones (that Jeff pays for...just kidding). That means I get an e-mail 24/7 anytime someone reports a post. As long as I am not out hunting or fishing where I do not have my phone with me, I can deal with the request right away via ForumRunner. So basically, we are on call 24/7 already for the most part.
Click to expand...


Curtis hit the nail on the head for the most part.   I actually have a special rule in my iphone that pops moderation requests differently.   However,  in a normal day, that rule hits multiple times a day (more like 10 in many days) and when I see that its a close, not a moderation request - unless I'm very free, there is no incentive to close it.

We should be able to close MUCH faster overall.   The only thing that I would like to ad is that all the moderators are in similar time zones - so if you are a 3rd shift person it may take a bit longer.

One other thing that people don't realize... These new rules could drastically help both sellers and buyers.  If there is only 4 pages of consolidated ads vs 13 pages of ads, it may be easier for buyers to find stuff to buy!


----------



## maxwell_smart007

There were some good ideas, so i thought it prudent to summarize some strategies for making better use of the new classifieds: 

In cases of less profit margin, i think someone could effectively do one of three things to make things profitable enough to afford five dollars to advertise. 

1. pay five dollars to advertise, qed - unless you're selling a blank or two at a time, it shouldn't be that big a percentage.  
2. charge a few dozen cents extra per box of blanks, and only have to eat a buck or two in profit as the cost of advertising 
3. group together and post more items per ad, reducing the cost per item to a paltry percentage...

Ten dollars has been tossed around a lot as the number.  remember, the regular classifieds are only five bucks, and there are free options as well.


----------



## MesquiteMan

Also, just to be clear, the new rules are not solely based upon the complaints we have received.  They are also aimed at reducing the overall commercialization feel that has come over IAP and get IAP back to its core values of advancing the art of penturning rather than folks wallets.


----------



## DozerMite

MesquiteMan said:


> Also, just to be clear, the new rules are not solely based upon the complaints we have received. They are also aimed at reducing the overall commercialization feel that has come over IAP and get IAP back to its core values of advancing the art of penturning rather than folks wallets.


 

Holy crap!! This is a penturning site? No wonder I couldn't find the gardening section.:wink:


----------



## Greg O'Sherwood

I haven't been very active here ever since I bought out another penturners shop full of almost 400 kits and 550 blanks, mostly because i used this place as a marketplace as much as an educational tool after my first year or so...

but I'll weigh in anyway :biggrin: :wink:

I hope this works out well for IAP. I was a Mod on another site for a long time that had over 30,000 members and the thing that hurt it most was that same thing that hurts virtually any enterprise; 

too much government.



It almost appears that this is going to be more work for the Mods in governing the new layout, but again, I hope I am wrong. Seems it would have been easier to just tell the whiners to get over it or find a new home. I won't become one of them.

I love that Jeff and the Mods have put a LOT of thought into this, and welcomed feedback. I'm sure that V2.0 of this system will get adjustments on the fly that will smooth things out. 

The only worries I'd like to see avoided? 

I LIKE being able to see buyers communicate often with vendors. Restricting the posts of a vendor may inhibit that flow. Doing everything by PM will be high-maintenance on the vendors since they'll have to answer questions by PM often as opposed to in a thread once.

I also LOVED that vendors were able to freely post new items often.


Apparently I am in the minority.:frown:

Anyway, good luck to Jeff, Curtis and all the other Mods! It seems you've done your homework and I hope it pays off - monetarily for IAP, and in freeing up your own personal time.


----------



## alphageek

Greg O'Sherwood said:


> I haven't been very active here ever since I bought out another penturners shop full of almost 400 kits and 550 blanks, mostly because i used this place as a marketplace as much as an educational tool after my first year or so...
> 
> but I'll weigh in anyway :biggrin: :wink:
> 
> I hope this works out well for IAP. I was a Mod on another site for a long time that had over 30,000 members and the thing that hurt it most was that same thing that hurts virtually any enterprise;
> 
> too much government.
> 
> 
> 
> It almost appears that this is going to be more work for the Mods in governing the new layout, but again, I hope I am wrong. Seems it would have been easier to just tell the whiners to get over it or find a new home. I won't become one of them.
> 
> I love that Jeff and the Mods have put a LOT of thought into this, and welcomed feedback. I'm sure that V2.0 of this system will get adjustments on the fly that will smooth things out.
> 
> The only worries I'd like to see avoided?
> 
> I LIKE being able to see buyers communicate often with vendors. Restricting the posts of a vendor may inhibit that flow. Doing everything by PM will be high-maintenance on the vendors since they'll have to answer questions by PM often as opposed to in a thread once.
> 
> I also LOVED that vendors were able to freely post new items often.
> 
> 
> Apparently I am in the minority.:frown:
> 
> Anyway, good luck to Jeff, Curtis and all the other Mods! It seems you've done your homework and I hope it pays off - monetarily for IAP, and in freeing up your own personal time.



Just 3 points - 
-We KNOW it will be less work (long term) for the mods.
-There can still be non-pm communication (in the right places, and conditions)
-The work also included the managers, this isn't all just about Jeff and the mods.


----------



## Lenny

Reading over this thread, off and on over the last couple days, (and No, I didn't read it all), has made one thing clear to me .... the moderators have to deal with a lot of crap in the background that we never hear about. :frown:

I just want to take this time to thank them all for their service! This still is the best, friendliest and most helpful forum on the net and I think it's because of the work you guys do behind the scenes that keeps it that way! 


So far I haven't sold anything here .... (but I have made up for it by being a buyer :biggrin  So the only concern I have is how items for sale will be "marked" off as they are sold ... and it sounds like that issue has been resolved.


----------



## Rangertrek

Well, my eyes are officially crossed and red from reading almost all the posts.  

I can't begin to thank Jeff and the mods for all the time & effort they pour into IAP on a daily basis.  :biggrin::biggrin:

Just thought I would add my very humble two cents worth.  I have been a member for a little over two years now, and this is still mostly a hobby for me.  I have to say that virtually everything I have learned about making pens came from this site.  I am a self-taught turner and got tips from IAP and linked youtube posts etc.  So without IAP, I would  have advanced at a much slower rate, that education has a lot of value to me.

I belong to a couple unrelated forums which have both basic and premium memberships.  I am a basic on one and a premium on another.  I find the value of that forum worth a small yearly member fee.

On that note, I would be willing to pay for a premium membership if IAP decided to go that route.  I would also still make an annual donation.

As mentioned above a few times, this is Jeff's baby and he can do with it what he wants.  I don't have any business getting into his business.  If he makes a buck, great.  I just want the wonderful world of IAP to continue.

I don't sell that much on the site; but, I have bought  quite a bit from fellow turners.  I had rather buy from individuals when available.  I hope IAP can find a way to let the vendors make special offers or pre-pay group buys.  I have bought many kits, bits, etc. this way.  The vendor sub-forum may be a great place for this.  I would also be in favor of paying premium membership to access vendor sales info.  That way, if you don't want to buy and sell, the basic membership would work quite well for all the other general information.

I placed orders with five IAP members in just the last few weeks totaling hundreds of $$.  I feel I benefited from the experience and hope they made a few $$ also.  Based on what the volume of sales is purported to be, the $5 and $10 fees will be inconsequential to most of the vendors.

Whatever Jeff and the mods decide to do, I am here to stay. :biggrin:  I will continue to participate in anyway that I can.  All growing experiences end up with a few aches and pains along the way; but, in the end everything turns out for the best.  The same will happen for IAP.  Those that just can't cope with change may leave and again IAP will be better off overall.


----------



## jttheclockman

JUST WHEN YOUN THINK IT IS SAFE TO COME BACK.

I stop by the site and happen to see a thread that is 39 pages long. I look to see what has caused the uproar and I see it happens to be the very thing that has caused me to leave this site. 

ADVERTISING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

I lost all interest in this site because every other post there is advertising of some sort. I look at the Show off your pen site and all I see is the very first words, I got this blank from Exotics, I got this kit from Smitty. and now there are other casters and there blanks are mentioned. Who gives a damn where you got the kit or the blank???  If you want to know use the PM system and ask the person. The thread is show off your pen, not sell blanks or kits for others. If you don't think people are plants when it comes to this then I have a bridge to sell you. You get a free blank from a dealer you don't need to shout it to the world. 

Go to the penturning forum and how many, how many, how many times is the question who sells kits is asked???  Or who has the best kits??  Very subjective and again free advertising. 

I know this has become a beginners forum and these questions are on their minds but refer them to the library or the search feature. 

I applaud Jeff for trying to clean this up because these people are using his site to sell their wares on his dime. It is about time people start to pay for the right to sell these things. Yes both buyer and seller do make out but that is the case in any selling transaction or else they would not do it. Look at ebay and the fees they are charging. 

This site was a whole lot different when all we talked about was pen turning and improving the hobby. Learning new techniques. I applaud those that have shown some new innovative ideas here. I know the reasons alot more are not shown but so be it. 

Jeff is kind enough to allow a classified forum. He could just as well shut them all down. He has reached out to those who do sell and have asked both to contribute, abide by the rules, and to help him tweak the idea. Is that so hard to do children???

Had to write to let steam out.


----------



## Smitty37

*Whoa There*

I don't know about exotics but I want everyone to know this...Smitty has *NEVER* *EVER* asked anyone to mention where they got their kits if they got them from me, nor do I intend to. So if customers bring my name up they are doing it because they want to.


----------



## edman2

Well, John T, I disagree with you even though you have the right to believe like you do.  I like seeing information about where products are available. I have referenced those in posts I have made and will continue to do so. No vendor has EVER asked me to do that and if they did I would no longer reference that vendor.  

So the Mods have to deal with honest differences of opinion.  They have done so with some new rules.  There are also some things that bother me on this site as well.  I just ignore them (and the people) and continue to enjoy the forum. 

I wish you well and hope that life is great for you.  Life is too short (and too long) to participate in things that cause great strife in your life.  My best to you.





jttheclockman said:


> JUST WHEN YOUN THINK IT IS SAFE TO COME BACK.
> 
> I stop by the site and happen to see a thread that is 39 pages long. I look to see what has caused the uproar and I see it happens to be the very thing that has caused me to leave this site.
> 
> ADVERTISING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> 
> I lost all interest in this site because every other post there is advertising of some sort. I look at the Show off your pen site and all I see is the very first words, I got this blank from Exotics, I got this kit from Smitty. and now there are other casters and there blanks are mentioned. Who gives a damn where you got the kit or the blank???  If you want to know use the PM system and ask the person. The thread is show off your pen, not sell blanks or kits for others. If you don't think people are plants when it comes to this then I have a bridge to sell you. You get a free blank from a dealer you don't need to shout it to the world.
> 
> Go to the penturning forum and how many, how many, how many times is the question who sells kits is asked???  Or who has the best kits??  Very subjective and again free advertising.
> 
> I know this has become a beginners forum and these questions are on their minds but refer them to the library or the search feature.
> 
> I applaud Jeff for trying to clean this up because these people are using his site to sell their wares on his dime. It is about time people start to pay for the right to sell these things. Yes both buyer and seller do make out but that is the case in any selling transaction or else they would not do it. Look at ebay and the fees they are charging.
> 
> This site was a whole lot different when all we talked about was pen turning and improving the hobby. Learning new techniques. I applaud those that have shown some new innovative ideas here. I know the reasons alot more are not shown but so be it.
> 
> Jeff is kind enough to allow a classified forum. He could just as well shut them all down. He has reached out to those who do sell and have asked both to contribute, abide by the rules, and to help him tweak the idea. Is that so hard to do children???
> 
> Had to write to let steam out.


----------



## BigShed

Have to agree with you John, this forum has become very heavy on the selling side.

As an example, when I clicked on New Posts this morning, a total of 55 posts came up, of which 18 were either Individual Classifieds or Business Classifieds, ie 1/3 of the New Posts were about selling pen stuff of one form or another.

I haven't even tried to determine how many of the other posts were in your "I got this xxxx from......" or "Who sells the best kits......" category.

I don't know whether charging for advertising will change this ratio, but I guess we are about to find out.


----------



## Andrew_K99

At the end of the day the IAP members will be paying the bill, allbeit a small amount.  Hopefully the vendors stick around and don't find another place or method to do their business.

AK


----------



## ed4copies

That is another horse that has been beaten to death, Smitty.  We have been accused of this often---I learned to ignore it as have a couple of our customers who still do mention us.

When people post a pen, they are PROUD of their work.  So, the SHOW OFF their PEN!!  If there is no mention of where the material came from, someone will ask, in the first five comments.  So, it really doesn't matter.

Some People LOOKING at SOYP are planning to imitate that pen.  Some of those who "protesteth" are the ones using new ideas to "update their art and craft show" offerings.

Hypocrisy runs rampant.  And we won't change that.

Now, there are new rules to try to tone down the complaining.  Hopefully that will work.

Only one thing is CERTAIN:  The IAP WILL gain a few dollars revenue to help improve the site.  That alone is worth the "price of admission".

Exotics will be paying freely and often.  And we will continue to thank Jeff and the mods for "putting up" with us.

I truly expect no fewer complaints.  We'll see.


----------



## alphageek

ed4copies said:


> I truly expect no fewer complaints.  We'll see.



Crud... I knew there was a rule we forgot to have Jeff add... the "no complaining rule".


----------



## arioux

Andrew_K99 said:


> At the end of the day the IAP members will be paying the bill, allbeit a small amount.  Hopefully the vendors stick around and don't find another place or method to do their business.
> 
> AK



IAP members don't pay nothing, the site is free.


----------



## Smitty37

*Hmmmmm*

I see few of the frequent users of classified ads protesting the introduction of paying the freight.  I use them a lot but will need to plan a little different but I'll learn.


----------



## bruce119

WOW my eyes are blurry I just skimmed over 38 pages and 373 post. I have one sale I was going to do soon by the end of the week then off to vacation for 2 weeks. I think I saw the new rules take effect the first of October.

I will wait for the dust to settle. It seems for me the reg. classifieds would work if we can X out what is sold. Seems the problem with that is the buyer wouldn't be able to make a public claim with a time line. I guess that is solved in the premium classifieds I have always had a just cover my cost philosophy wasn't out to make a lot of money.

I am on board we will adapt. 

.


----------



## Smitty37

*Maybe*



Andrew_K99 said:


> At the end of the day the IAP members will be paying the bill, allbeit a small amount. Hopefully the vendors stick around and don't find another place or method to do their business.
> 
> AK


 
Possibly but I know I am not rushing to raise my prices to cover that cost.  In the last week I've sold around 1000 kits - I used more than one ad but could have gotten by with one....my cost would have been a penny per kit.  I can handle that.

I see a lot of sales for blanks offering 50 or so blanks that sell out in a day or two.  I doubt that raising the price by 20 cents a blank will change that.  For those who sell one or two items there is "steals and deals".


----------



## witz1976

Texatdurango said:


> ed4copies said:
> 
> 
> 
> Notice a theme??
> 
> A handful of people complain about advertising.
> A handful of people complain about the mods.
> 
> Maybe we are approaching this wrong---get rid of the "handful of people"!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Or........... the bad apples!
Click to expand...


A-men to both.  If there are only a select few who are whining and complaining, then perhaps it's best to evaluate who these people and what THEY contribute to the group as a whole.  Perhaps those bad apples are doing nothing more than stirring the proverbial pot...kinda like what I am up to doing now


----------



## Haynie

ed4copies said:


> I truly expect no fewer complaints.



To expect other wise would be to ignore human nature.


----------



## Smitty37

*Maybe not what it seems*



BigShed said:


> Have to agree with you John, this forum has become very heavy on the selling side.
> 
> As an example, when I clicked on New Posts this morning, a total of 55 posts came up, of which 18 were either Individual Classifieds or Business Classifieds, ie 1/3 of the New Posts were about selling pen stuff of one form or another.
> 
> I haven't even tried to determine how many of the other posts were in your "I got this xxxx from......" or "Who sells the best kits......" category.
> 
> I don't know whether charging for advertising will change this ratio, but I guess we are about to find out.


Some of that might be more apparent than real....I frequently need to update classifieds and due to the current system, I often have to make a post rather than edit. That is an extra post not made because there is more selling but because I can only edit for 48 hours. 

Where I used to be able to edit anytime without bumpint the ad, now If I go in every 48 hours to put in an update the moderators *rightly* get upset because of the rule about "bumping". So vendors are sort of between a rock and a hard place in some ways that make it appear like there is more selling going on then there really is.


----------



## ed4copies

You might also consider that, in light of the rules changing, smaller vendors would be smart to place ads from now until Oct 1 to reduce their inventories.

Thus, ad traffic will likely be higher for the next 18 days.


----------



## Texatdurango

alphageek said:


> ed4copies said:
> 
> 
> 
> I truly expect no fewer complaints. We'll see.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Crud... I knew there was a rule we forgot to have Jeff add... the "no complaining rule".
Click to expand...

 
Now that's funny and by golly I think you're right, we forgot that sign and we ought to plant it on the front  "cyber lawn" right next to this one.....




What's starting to be comical about this thread is the line being drawn down the middle of the page.  On one side you have the penmakers blaming all our woes on the vendors and their advertising tactics, on the other side you have the vendors blaming the same woes on the whiny penmakers.  Whose right and whose wrong, probably a little of both so it's a draw!

Personally I think all the good has been gleened from this thread and now people are just further distancing themselves from each other and the snyde little pot shots are starting so I for one am outta this mess because I promised to be good from now on!:biggrin:


----------



## maxwell_smart007

Lenny said:


> Reading over this thread, off and on over the last couple days, (and No, I didn't read it all), has made one thing clear to me .... the moderators have to deal with a lot of crap in the background that we never hear about. :frown:



If I knew how to make a screenshot of my inbox, you'd be surprised by the number of things in there some days...Mind you, most days aren't bad at all - but when things heat up, it's interesting!  

I've had to delete my inbox quite often...and it holds a lot of emails!


----------



## BigShed

Smitty, my purpose in saying what I did there was not to complain. It is a free world (well sort of) and if people want to push their wares on this forum then obviously they are free to do so, within the rules that the Admintrator sets from time to time.:biggrin:

I was merely stating that the amount of selling on this forum has been increasing over time and, IMHO, it detracts from my experience. It may not affect others the same way.

I visit this pen forum mainly to see what other pen makers are doing and to learn from their expertise, and hopefully put something back every now and again.

The point has been made by several people that there is an increasing emphasis on pushing merchandise as illustrated by my 1/3 selling posts example. Some days this proportion is higher.

Yes Smitty, you are right, some of these are merely "bumps", those bumps though still show up in the New Posts.

I am a member of several other forums and none come even close to the amount of selling by members that occurs on this forum.

I have often thought it would be nice to have a facility to switch off some forums here from appearing in New Posts.




Smitty37 said:


> BigShed said:
> 
> 
> 
> Have to agree with you John, this forum has become very heavy on the selling side.
> 
> As an example, when I clicked on New Posts this morning, a total of 55 posts came up, of which 18 were either Individual Classifieds or Business Classifieds, ie 1/3 of the New Posts were about selling pen stuff of one form or another.
> 
> I haven't even tried to determine how many of the other posts were in your "I got this xxxx from......" or "Who sells the best kits......" category.
> 
> I don't know whether charging for advertising will change this ratio, but I guess we are about to find out.
> 
> 
> 
> Some of that might be more apparent than real....I frequently need to update classifieds and due to the current system, I often have to make a post rather than edit. That is an extra post not made because there is more selling but because I can only edit for 48 hours.
> 
> Where I used to be able to edit anytime without bumpint the ad, now If I go in every 48 hours to put in an update the moderators *rightly* get upset because of the rule about "bumping". So vendors are sort of between a rock and a hard place in some ways that make it appear like there is more selling going on then there really is.
Click to expand...


----------



## ed4copies

_I have often thought it would be nice to have a facility to switch off some forums here from appearing in New Posts.

_*This, too can be done.  Although I will let someone else tell you how, since I have never tried this one.  But I know you CAN turn off a forum, from YOUR view.*


----------



## PR_Princess

Fred, Go to the top of your screen. User CP. Then Edit Options/Miscellaneous Options. Hi light the forums that you do not want to appear in new posts. Save. 

That should do it.


----------



## Dave Turner

I've been a member for a little over a year now, and I still feel like a newcomer compared to many here. This is a great forum. The education and entertainment I've received this past year is worth my donations several times over. Not having the long-term perspective, I guess I haven't really noticed all that much advertising outside the classifieds (I don't consider the provision of material sources to be advertising, just a public service). The classified forums are extremely valuable to me and are often the first place I visit. They allow me to discover new materials and sources that I never would find otherwise. I agree that things should be a little more organized in these forums and support the changes Jeff is initiating. I just hope the smaller sellers are able to accommodate these changes and continue to allow me to have fun spending money.

Dave


----------



## alphageek

BigShed said:


> I have often thought it would be nice to have a facility to switch off some forums here from appearing in New Posts.



Piece of cake:
- Go to User CP in the blue bar
- Choose Edit Options from the left
- Scroll down to the last section
- Choose the forums you want to exclude

Theres the happy experience you want.   You can still go into every forum, it will just change the New Posts button for you.


----------



## Smitty37

*Right now*

Well I just clicked new posts...and on my first page there were 26 posts - 1 individual classified no business classifieds and probably 12 or 14 SYOP.
Less then 4% related to selling.

That seems to represent the desires of a lot of members pretty well.


----------



## jttheclockman

edman2 said:


> Well, John T, I disagree with you even though you have the right to believe like you do. I like seeing information about where products are available. I have referenced those in posts I have made and will continue to do so. No vendor has EVER asked me to do that and if they did I would no longer reference that vendor.
> 
> So the Mods have to deal with honest differences of opinion. They have done so with some new rules. There are also some things that bother me on this site as well. I just ignore them (and the people) and continue to enjoy the forum.
> 
> I wish you well and hope that life is great for you. Life is too short (and too long) to participate in things that cause great strife in your life. My best to you.


[/quote]  


Freddie

Thank you for the well wishes. Your statement about LIFE is so true. 

I just wanted to voice my opinion which I think I have earned a right to do. As far as people drawing lines in the sand or not is not what this topic is about. If anyone of the older members here think that this has not become a buy and sell site then there is no convincing you. We all know how much pen making has taken off and how it has become more and more commercialized just by looking at all the ads and how certain calalogs have gotten thicker and thicker with more and more kits, blanks and other items just for the pen making world. 

Now do not get me wrong I do not care what you sell or to who but there has to be limits as to where it is advertised. I am not the only one who thinks this way. There are others that just do not want to voice their opinions because of ridicule. But I never shyed away from things like that. Now if you want to group me in the bad apple bunch because of my opinion then so be it. But it does not change my opinion. 

Good luck to all. 

I have far more pressing issues in my life  than to defend my opinion on such a no brainer issue.


----------



## ed4copies

Smitty37 said:


> Well I just clicked new posts...and on my first page there were 26 posts - 1 individual classified no business classifieds and probably 12 or 14 SYOP.
> Less then 4% related to selling.
> 
> That seems to represent the desires of a lot of members pretty well.



Well Smitty--as you know, these numbers will vary (ok, swing wildly) based on the time you look.  So, let's be fair and look at the "universe".

There have been 965,877 posts on IAP according to the first page entries.

Looking at the "forums", you will see the Individual Classifieds and the Business Classifieds have had 48,929 and 27165 posts, respectively.

Thus, the total is 76094 posts are ADS.
Slightly LESS than EIGHT PERCENT OF THE ENTRIES!!!

This new program will, likely reduce that number farther.  But, as someone said, no point in debating when the answer is a "no-brainer"!


----------



## Smitty37

*Maybe just me*



ed4copies said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well I just clicked new posts...and on my first page there were 26 posts - 1 individual classified no business classifieds and probably 12 or 14 SYOP.
> Less then 4% related to selling.
> 
> That seems to represent the desires of a lot of members pretty well.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well Smitty--as you know, these numbers will vary (ok, swing wildly) based on the time you look. So, let's be fair and look at the "universe".
> 
> There have been 965,877 posts on IAP according to the first page entries.
> 
> Looking at the "forums", you will see the Individual Classifieds and the Business Classifieds have had 48,929 and 27165 posts, respectively.
> 
> Thus, the total is 76094 posts are ADS.
> Slightly LESS than EIGHT PERCENT OF THE ENTRIES!!!
> 
> This new program will, likely reduce that number farther. But, as someone said, no point in debating when the answer is a "no-brainer"!
Click to expand...

 
Well maybe it's just because I read faster than most (and type slower) but I figure when I click the new posts it takes me 10 maybe 15 seconds to scan the list and see if there are any I might want to read. I often wait longer to get there than it takes me to check. I don't even look at what category they're in. I just check the titles and the poster.


----------



## robutacion

> George
> 
> The new rules begin Oct 1.
> 
> Did you read the Product Reference Rules?
> 
> I think it clearly addresses your questions, but I am always interested in specific new words that make things clearer. Maybe the reason it's not crystal clear is that I am not good at explaining what I think is common sense. I realize what is common sense to me may not be to anyone else! :biggrin:
> 
> Talk all you want about wood. Educate us, help us use it, share your knowledge. Just don't post links to your IAP sales or off-site product catalogs, prices, or blatantly shout that you sell what you're discussing.
> 
> Does that clear it up at all?




I hear you Jeff, I hear you...!:wink:

I'm not sure anymore if I read the "Product Reference Rules" but, I shall go back and have a look to find out...!

Thank you...!

Cheers
George


----------



## DocStram

Smitty37 said:


> ed4copies said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well I just clicked new posts...and on my first page there were 26 posts - 1 individual classified no business classifieds and probably 12 or 14 SYOP.
> Less then 4% related to selling.
> 
> That seems to represent the desires of a lot of members pretty well.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well Smitty--as you know, these numbers will vary (ok, swing wildly) based on the time you look. So, let's be fair and look at the "universe".
> 
> There have been 965,877 posts on IAP according to the first page entries.
> 
> Looking at the "forums", you will see the Individual Classifieds and the Business Classifieds have had 48,929 and 27165 posts, respectively.
> 
> Thus, the total is 76094 posts are ADS.
> Slightly LESS than EIGHT PERCENT OF THE ENTRIES!!!
> 
> This new program will, likely reduce that number farther. But, as someone said, no point in debating when the answer is a "no-brainer"!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well maybe it's just because I read faster than most (and type slower) but I figure when I click the new posts it takes me 10 maybe 15 seconds to scan the list and see if there are any I might want to read. I often wait longer to get there than it takes me to check. I don't even look at what category they're in. I just check the titles and the poster.
Click to expand...



ed and Smitty . . . .  I don't get it.  This thing has dragged on for 390 some posts.    I'm not going to take the time to go back and document your posts. But, it seems to me that one minute you're saying that you back Jeff and the mods along with the new rules . . . .  and then, suddenly, you submit a post filled with sarcasm.   So, tell me . . . .  which is it?  

On second thought, I'm with George.  I'm done reading this thread.


----------



## thewishman

I like being able to buy things through the classified sections.
I like finding out where someone got their components/blanks/doodads/freebies(or freebees (sic)) etc.
I like sharing where I got my stuff.
I like to praise a vendor for a good experience. 
I like being able to get answers to questions from the seller in the thread.
I like have full information when making a special tool purchase. 

A lot of the things I purchase are the results of a long thread with lots of feedback and answered questions - especially tools that are new to me.

If we can't get answers from vendors in their threads, doesn't that deprive the community of potentially valuable information? 

Examples: 
Carbide tools
Custom tool rests
Turning-between-centers - bushings, special centers...
Bottle stoppers
Pendants
Sanding mills
Taps and dies

Many of the above mentioned things that are commonly used now are the result of an idea that a vendor had and was able to adapt and modify based on the shared feedback of the community.

Would our potential penmaking benefit from NOT being able to ask Curtis how his vacuum chamber and Cactus Juice(r) works? How about the Pen Wizard - there was even a special forum set up to discuss that product.

How would I have learned how to use a die holder? Could George sell a *Custom dual size die holder* and still be allowed to have his previous "How to use a die holder video" on the site. Would that be considered "sneaky marketing" with a "devious long-range sales plan?"

How about turning a new material? M3, Tru-stone, gator jaw blanks. How will a new product be introduced? How could we find out more about the Tru-Quarter blanks?

There are a lot of people selling stuff here. There are a lot of people who like to buy that stuff here.

I love coming here, sharing here, learning here - being part of this community. I have referred many pen guys and some gals to this place. 


Charging money for classifieds is fine. Please don't limit the sharing of information on a product just because it is for sale. The creator/modifier is the most knowledgeable person to ask - the very person who cannot provide public answers.


----------



## Smitty37

*We slipped*



DocStram said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ed4copies said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well I just clicked new posts...and on my first page there were 26 posts - 1 individual classified no business classifieds and probably 12 or 14 SYOP.
> Less then 4% related to selling.
> 
> That seems to represent the desires of a lot of members pretty well.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well Smitty--as you know, these numbers will vary (ok, swing wildly) based on the time you look. So, let's be fair and look at the "universe".
> 
> There have been 965,877 posts on IAP according to the first page entries.
> 
> Looking at the "forums", you will see the Individual Classifieds and the Business Classifieds have had 48,929 and 27165 posts, respectively.
> 
> Thus, the total is 76094 posts are ADS.
> Slightly LESS than EIGHT PERCENT OF THE ENTRIES!!!
> 
> This new program will, likely reduce that number farther. But, as someone said, no point in debating when the answer is a "no-brainer"!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well maybe it's just because I read faster than most (and type slower) but I figure when I click the new posts it takes me 10 maybe 15 seconds to scan the list and see if there are any I might want to read. I often wait longer to get there than it takes me to check. I don't even look at what category they're in. I just check the titles and the poster.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> ed and Smitty . . . . I don't get it. This thing has dragged on for 390 some posts. I'm not going to take the time to go back and document your posts. But, it seems to me that one minute you're saying that you back Jeff and the mods along with the new rules . . . . and then, suddenly, you submit a post filled with sarcasm. So, tell me . . . . which is it?
Click to expand...

 
The last few posts were referencing current forum usage not the new.  Things got off track a bit.


----------



## ed4copies

You don't have to have only ONE opinion.

When there is evidence that slants one way, I read it.  When there is evidence the other, I read it too.

The ONLY thing that matters is the new rules represent the way Jeff would like us to conduct ourselves in his house and, as I have always TRIED to do, I will attempt to comply with his wishes.

He has never told me he wishes I would stop thinking,or weighing evidence though.


----------



## Smitty37

*hmmm*

and here I thought you were just aiming at the 400th post in this thread....


----------



## Phunky_2003

Smitty37 said:


> and here I thought you were just aiming at the 400th post in this thread....



I get 400


----------



## alphageek

thewishman said:


> Charging money for classifieds is fine. Please don't limit the sharing of information on a product just because it is for sale. The creator/modifier is the most knowledgeable person to ask - the very person who cannot provide public answers.



Don't worry Chris..  The rules have been written to specifically SEPARATE the information posts from the sales posts.   Not to eliminate either.   

We have a lot of members with tons of knowledge.   We want them to share.  Some of the separation of areas will just make it easier to ignore things you don't like. (not you specifically, but any member)

For example, a few people really don't like the praise of our vendors (no comments on this please - we don't need another dozen posts on if thats good, bad or other).   Now those will get created in a specific spot - and if someone doesn't like it, look above to my post on how to not see things in your new posts... and don't go in there!   Easily solved.

Dean 
Asst Mod


----------



## theidlemind

VERY well summed up. 
If there isn't a way to allow that kind of discussion the whole innovation thing is going to suffer. 

And I like your signature quote, reminds me of my stepson. 
That quote is also on my wife's screen saver. 




thewishman said:


> I like being able to buy things through the classified sections.
> I like finding out where someone got their components/blanks/doodads/freebies(or freebees (sic)) etc.
> I like sharing where I got my stuff.
> I like to praise a vendor for a good experience.
> I like being able to get answers to questions from the seller in the thread.
> I like have full information when making a special tool purchase.
> 
> A lot of the things I purchase are the results of a long thread with lots of feedback and answered questions - especially tools that are new to me.
> 
> If we can't get answers from vendors in their threads, doesn't that deprive the community of potentially valuable information?
> 
> Examples:
> Carbide tools
> Custom tool rests
> Turning-between-centers - bushings, special centers...
> Bottle stoppers
> Pendants
> Sanding mills
> Taps and dies
> 
> Many of the above mentioned things that are commonly used now are the result of an idea that a vendor had and was able to adapt and modify based on the shared feedback of the community.
> 
> Would our potential penmaking benefit from NOT being able to ask Curtis how his vacuum chamber and Cactus Juice(r) works? How about the Pen Wizard - there was even a special forum set up to discuss that product.
> 
> How would I have learned how to use a die holder? Could George sell a *Custom dual size die holder* and still be allowed to have his previous "How to use a die holder video" on the site. Would that be considered "sneaky marketing" with a "devious long-range sales plan?"
> 
> How about turning a new material? M3, Tru-stone, gator jaw blanks. How will a new product be introduced? How could we find out more about the Tru-Quarter blanks?
> 
> There are a lot of people selling stuff here. There are a lot of people who like to buy that stuff here.
> 
> I love coming here, sharing here, learning here - being part of this community. I have referred many pen guys and some gals to this place.
> 
> 
> Charging money for classifieds is fine. Please don't limit the sharing of information on a product just because it is for sale. The creator/modifier is the most knowledgeable person to ask - the very person who cannot provide public answers.


----------



## BigShed

Thank you Dawn, I had forgotten about that option in vBulletin.

Will now switch off some forums of little or no interest to me.

Thanks again.




PR_Princess said:


> Fred, Go to the top of your screen. User CP. Then Edit Options/Miscellaneous Options. Hi light the forums that you do not want to appear in new posts. Save.
> 
> That should do it.


----------



## BigShed

Ed, do your figures also include the Completed Listings?

If they don't, there are close to 70,000 posts in them for the 2 forums.



ed4copies said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well I just clicked new posts...and on my first page there were 26 posts - 1 individual classified no business classifieds and probably 12 or 14 SYOP.
> Less then 4% related to selling.
> 
> That seems to represent the desires of a lot of members pretty well.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well Smitty--as you know, these numbers will vary (ok, swing wildly) based on the time you look.  So, let's be fair and look at the "universe".
> 
> There have been 965,877 posts on IAP according to the first page entries.
> 
> Looking at the "forums", you will see the Individual Classifieds and the Business Classifieds have had 48,929 and 27165 posts, respectively.
> 
> Thus, the total is 76094 posts are ADS.
> Slightly LESS than EIGHT PERCENT OF THE ENTRIES!!!
> 
> This new program will, likely reduce that number farther.  But, as someone said, no point in debating when the answer is a "no-brainer"!
Click to expand...


----------



## Smitty37

*completed*



BigShed said:


> Ed, do your figures also include the Completed Listings?
> 
> If they don't, there are close to 70,000 posts in them for the 2 forums.
> 
> 
> 
> ed4copies said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well I just clicked new posts...and on my first page there were 26 posts - 1 individual classified no business classifieds and probably 12 or 14 SYOP.
> Less then 4% related to selling.
> 
> That seems to represent the desires of a lot of members pretty well.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well Smitty--as you know, these numbers will vary (ok, swing wildly) based on the time you look. So, let's be fair and look at the "universe".
> 
> There have been 965,877 posts on IAP according to the first page entries.
> 
> Looking at the "forums", you will see the Individual Classifieds and the Business Classifieds have had 48,929 and 27165 posts, respectively.
> 
> Thus, the total is 76094 posts are ADS.
> Slightly LESS than EIGHT PERCENT OF THE ENTRIES!!!
> 
> This new program will, likely reduce that number farther. But, as someone said, no point in debating when the answer is a "no-brainer"!
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

I would think that since any completed post first appeared elsewhere they would have been included in the totals for the forums.


----------



## ed4copies

BigShed said:


> Ed, do your figures also include the Completed Listings?
> 
> If they don't, there are close to 70,000 posts in them for the 2 forums.
> 
> 
> 
> ed4copies said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well I just clicked new posts...and on my first page there were 26 posts - 1 individual classified no business classifieds and probably 12 or 14 SYOP.
> Less then 4% related to selling.
> 
> That seems to represent the desires of a lot of members pretty well.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well Smitty--as you know, these numbers will vary (ok, swing wildly) based on the time you look.  So, let's be fair and look at the "universe".
> 
> There have been 965,877 posts on IAP according to the first page entries.
> 
> Looking at the "forums", you will see the Individual Classifieds and the Business Classifieds have had 48,929 and 27165 posts, respectively.
> 
> Thus, the total is 76094 posts are ADS.
> Slightly LESS than EIGHT PERCENT OF THE ENTRIES!!!
> 
> This new program will, likely reduce that number farther.  But, as someone said, no point in debating when the answer is a "no-brainer"!
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...



I am NOT certain---but the sub-forum totals (closed) are about 4000 short of the forum total, which would imply 4000 are open----seems reasonable---but maybe tomorrow someone who KNOWS will answer this authoritatively.


----------



## alphageek

ed4copies said:


> I am NOT certain---but the sub-forum totals (closed) are about 4000 short of the forum total, which would imply 4000 are open----seems reasonable---but maybe tomorrow someone who KNOWS will answer this authoritatively.



Or maybe not.... I'm pretty sure this thread has melted Jeffs brain and it refuses to let him even realize this thread exists any more :biggrin::biggrin:


----------



## robutacion

ed4copies said:


> You might also consider that, in light of the rules changing, smaller vendors would be smart to place ads from now until Oct 1 to reduce their inventories.
> 
> Thus, ad traffic will likely be higher for the next 18 days.



Ain't sure about that Ed, and I may be wrong to, that wouldn't be the first time nor will be the last but, I have been very reluctant in put anything for sale on IAP for the last few months, since I knew that Jeff and others were working on changing the Classifieds structure.

No one can blame "those" that found an open door to free advertised and made the most out of it as fast as they could as themselves knew that, whatever was coming as a change on the Classifieds, that open door and free range selling, was going to be over, one doesn't need to be a rock scientist to know that so, no one is to blame really in all fairness, everyone wants to make a buck, some just put a little more effort to do so...!

There are many different vendors and many difference REASONS why people sell.  Despite the fact that, WE tend to forget about our own times of extreme financial difficulties and the stressful and panic mode that comes with it, one should not dismiss that desperation pushes people to do things they normally wouldn't do, such as push what they need to sell up ones throats.
I've been in that situation, I know how it feels and I've paid a very high price, as a result...!

Anyway, its easy to assume and judge others behavior, when in fact, the truth behind it is or can be, very far from what looks like...!

Coming back to your observation Ed, the time that is left before the new rules come into place, is creating different reactions to different people/vendors, and while some are still too confused to post anything at the moment, some are skeptical and wait until they sure what they want to do, while some may feel that they are running out of time on the free run and will try to "shove" stuff, up our throats, non-stop...!  I may have used a "little" exaggeration here but, we sure will find out who those people are, huh...! 
UNLESS, they have realized that, it would become too obvious so they prefer to stay put. Will see...!

My heart goes to those that are, in a desperate situation...!:frown:

I know that, I have been trying not to put anything on the classifieds for some time, even tough I have half a dozen new adds ready for some time.  I felt uncomfortable to be part of something that didn't feel right, my attempt to rectify that by donating a percentage on every sale, did settle me a little but the whole structure didn't feel right so, I simple restrain myself to be part of the mess and become one more element of criticism.

I will sell again but only, under the new rules and after I decide which section will be more appropriate to me, and to those that purchase from me.  I do need any sale I make and IAP sales are very helpful to me, I have great satisfaction in seeing my woods used and admired by everyone around the world and I will do whatever I can to continue to make those woods available to IAP members, even tough, 95% of them know that they can get all my woods on my eBay store, anytime...!

I also acknowledge that, what I do and the way I do it, is only possible because I am NOT a business nor I make a living out of my sales, (thanks goodness for that, I would have died of starvation, a long time ago...!), I have made this very clear, quite often so, I understand that, others may have to "travel on a different road...!", and that is fine by me...!

I do also use the services of the IAP vendors quite often, I spend many hundreds of dollars every year on items/products offered here, primarily because they offer great prices and secondly because I help those who help me, directly or indirectly...!
I'm concerned that some of those vendors, some as small as me, may stop selling on IAP, that wouldn't be not only a loss to others but also the fact that, what some of them offer, is something that can't be found easily or even anywhere or for the prices those items are offered at so, loosing them will be a considerable loss for everyone else here at IAP...!

I'm positive about the new Classified changes and I hope that we don't loose what made this place what it is today...!

Cheers
George


----------



## jaeger

This is my chance to thank Jeff for this Great Website!
I also would like to thank the moderators for all the time and help they give.

My opinion is that a lot of the vendors are very helpful and informative.
On the other hand, there has been to much advertising mixed in with useful topics. And there are a lot of cheerleaders that are just kissing up.
This is the biggest part that has been sickening!
I whole heartedly applaud Jeff in curbing the Cheerleader squad and over advertising. It's has gotten to be like a stupid commercial in almost every post and thread.

I have been trying to read every post in this thread and the rules thread. I have not sold anything on this forum although I have bought quite a bit. 
The one thing I don't know if I am reading correct but it sounds like in the classifieds a buyer will not know if an item is sold until the seller has a moderator remove the post. If this is the case, I will not bother looking at this section at all. It will be a waste of my time. The way it is now, I know that an item is sold through claiming, which to me is point of sale. I don't want to wait a day or two to find out if the item was actually still listed. Most decent items are sold well within the first day. I will not even look if I don't know for this long. I may be reading this wrong, but if so it is only my opinion. It just seems like the sellers are being forced into the Premium Classifieds at a higher cost that is again being passed on to the buyer. 
Again, I may have this wrong and this is my only post on this thread.

Thanks again Jeff! Overall, I think these are some Great changes!!!


----------



## aussieturner

hey jeff 
 i see everyones jumping up and down over $5 or $10 bucks im sure they can and are going to have to raise their prices to cover costs 

  if they dont want  pay for selling im sure that the pile of blanks will pile up and then hopefully they can build a bridge from them  AND GET OVER IT 

as normally a buyer it would be great to see a "X " where items are sold 

 but with all the jumping up and down and crying poor  theres one thing i haven't been able to find the answer even after reading the new rules 

 where do i put a   " wanted to buy a  specific timber " add and want to know if its free ??? i know theres been heaps of questions about selling  but nothing regarding this issue


----------



## jeff

Smitty37 said:


> BigShed said:
> 
> 
> 
> Have to agree with you John, this forum has become very heavy on the selling side.
> 
> As an example, when I clicked on New Posts this morning, a total of 55 posts came up, of which 18 were either Individual Classifieds or Business Classifieds, ie 1/3 of the New Posts were about selling pen stuff of one form or another.
> 
> I haven't even tried to determine how many of the other posts were in your "I got this xxxx from......" or "Who sells the best kits......" category.
> 
> I don't know whether charging for advertising will change this ratio, but I guess we are about to find out.
> 
> 
> 
> Some of that might be more apparent than real....I frequently need to update classifieds and due to the current system, I often have to make a post rather than edit. That is an extra post not made because there is more selling but* because I can only edit for 48 hours.*
> 
> Where I used to be able to edit anytime without bumpint the ad, now If I go in every 48 hours to put in an update the moderators *rightly* get upset because of the rule about "bumping". So vendors are sort of between a rock and a hard place in some ways that make it appear like there is more selling going on then there really is.
Click to expand...


We are very likely going to change the edit time limit in DOC only to 2 weeks to coincide with the maximum duration of an ad.


----------



## jeff

jaeger said:


> ....
> 
> The one thing I don't know if I am reading correct but it sounds like in the classifieds a buyer will not know if an item is sold until the seller has a moderator remove the post. If this is the case, I will not bother looking at this section at all. It will be a waste of my time. The way it is now, I know that an item is sold through claiming, which to me is point of sale. I don't want to wait a day or two to find out if the item was actually still listed. Most decent items are sold well within the first day. I will not even look if I don't know for this long. I may be reading this wrong, but if so it is only my opinion. It just seems like the sellers are being forced into the Premium Classifieds at a higher cost that is again being passed on to the buyer.
> Again, I may have this wrong and this is my only post on this thread.
> 
> Thanks again Jeff! Overall, I think these are some Great changes!!!



Premium classifieds is the place where claiming posts are allowed. Photos "X"ing will probably be allowed in both forums. Given the often large number of blanks sold in a single post, $10 should not be much of a burden. I have seen threads where hundreds of blanks are listed at $8-$12. $10 to sell $1000 worth of blanks doesn't seem too bad.


----------



## rherrell

thewishman said:


> I like being able to buy things through the classified sections.
> I like finding out where someone got their components/blanks/doodads/freebies(or freebees (sic)) etc.
> I like sharing where I got my stuff.
> I like to praise a vendor for a good experience.
> I like being able to get answers to questions from the seller in the thread.
> I like have full information when making a special tool purchase.
> 
> A lot of the things I purchase are the results of a long thread with lots of feedback and answered questions - especially tools that are new to me.
> 
> If we can't get answers from vendors in their threads, doesn't that deprive the community of potentially valuable information?
> 
> 
> 
> Examples:
> Carbide tools
> Custom tool rests
> Turning-between-centers - bushings, special centers...
> Bottle stoppers
> Pendants
> Sanding mills
> Taps and dies
> 
> Many of the above mentioned things that are commonly used now are the result of an idea that a vendor had and was able to adapt and modify based on the shared feedback of the community.
> 
> Would our potential penmaking benefit from NOT being able to ask Curtis how his vacuum chamber and Cactus Juice(r) works? How about the Pen Wizard - there was even a special forum set up to discuss that product.
> 
> How would I have learned how to use a die holder? Could George sell a *Custom dual size die holder* and still be allowed to have his previous "How to use a die holder video" on the site. Would that be considered "sneaky marketing" with a "devious long-range sales plan?"
> 
> How about turning a new material? M3, Tru-stone, gator jaw blanks. How will a new product be introduced? How could we find out more about the Tru-Quarter blanks?
> 
> There are a lot of people selling stuff here. There are a lot of people who like to buy that stuff here.
> 
> I love coming here, sharing here, learning here - being part of this community. I have referred many pen guys and some gals to this place.
> 
> 
> Charging money for classifieds is fine. Please don't limit the sharing of information on a product just because it is for sale. The creator/modifier is the most knowledgeable person to ask - the very person who cannot provide public answers.


 

AMEN Brother!


----------



## bruce119

rherrell said:


> thewishman said:
> 
> 
> 
> I like being able to buy things through the classified sections.
> I like finding out where someone got their components/blanks/doodads/freebies(or freebees (sic)) etc.
> I like sharing where I got my stuff.
> I like to praise a vendor for a good experience.
> I like being able to get answers to questions from the seller in the thread.
> I like have full information when making a special tool purchase.
> 
> A lot of the things I purchase are the results of a long thread with lots of feedback and answered questions - especially tools that are new to me.
> 
> If we can't get answers from vendors in their threads, doesn't that deprive the community of potentially valuable information?
> 
> 
> 
> Examples:
> Carbide tools
> Custom tool rests
> Turning-between-centers - bushings, special centers...
> Bottle stoppers
> Pendants
> Sanding mills
> Taps and dies
> 
> Many of the above mentioned things that are commonly used now are the result of an idea that a vendor had and was able to adapt and modify based on the shared feedback of the community.
> 
> Would our potential penmaking benefit from NOT being able to ask Curtis how his vacuum chamber and Cactus Juice(r) works? How about the Pen Wizard - there was even a special forum set up to discuss that product.
> 
> How would I have learned how to use a die holder? Could George sell a *Custom dual size die holder* and still be allowed to have his previous "How to use a die holder video" on the site. Would that be considered "sneaky marketing" with a "devious long-range sales plan?"
> 
> How about turning a new material? M3, Tru-stone, gator jaw blanks. How will a new product be introduced? How could we find out more about the Tru-Quarter blanks?
> 
> There are a lot of people selling stuff here. There are a lot of people who like to buy that stuff here.
> 
> I love coming here, sharing here, learning here - being part of this community. I have referred many pen guys and some gals to this place.
> 
> 
> Charging money for classifieds is fine. Please don't limit the sharing of information on a product just because it is for sale. The creator/modifier is the most knowledgeable person to ask - the very person who cannot provide public answers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AMEN Brother!
Click to expand...

 
I don't mind paying a small few $ but the restrictions also not making comments. It seems as though the big guy is the one that benefits and the little guy that's not out to make a buck and help out fellow members is going to be pushed out.

I'm sure it will work out and as it is rite now there are soooo many small listings it gets cluttered. I am sure a lot of those small listings will go away that's good for some (the big boys) and bad for others (the little guys)

I'm off to the mountains soon I will see and learn what is here when I get back.


----------



## jeff

Where does it say that you can't get answers from vendors?

Please quote here the part of the rules you believe prevents a vendor from answering questions.

The only thing the rules say is that someone can't turn discussions or questions into advertisements by posting prices, part numbers, or the like.



thewishman said:


> I like being able to buy things through the classified sections.
> I like finding out where someone got their components/blanks/doodads/freebies(or freebees (sic)) etc.
> I like sharing where I got my stuff.
> I like to praise a vendor for a good experience.
> I like being able to get answers to questions from the seller in the thread.
> I like have full information when making a special tool purchase.
> 
> A lot of the things I purchase are the results of a long thread with lots of feedback and answered questions - especially tools that are new to me.
> 
> If we can't get answers from vendors in their threads, doesn't that deprive the community of potentially valuable information?
> 
> Examples:
> Carbide tools
> Custom tool rests
> Turning-between-centers - bushings, special centers...
> Bottle stoppers
> Pendants
> Sanding mills
> Taps and dies
> 
> Many of the above mentioned things that are commonly used now are the result of an idea that a vendor had and was able to adapt and modify based on the shared feedback of the community.
> 
> Would our potential penmaking benefit from NOT being able to ask Curtis how his vacuum chamber and Cactus Juice(r) works? How about the Pen Wizard - there was even a special forum set up to discuss that product.
> 
> How would I have learned how to use a die holder? Could George sell a *Custom dual size die holder* and still be allowed to have his previous "How to use a die holder video" on the site. Would that be considered "sneaky marketing" with a "devious long-range sales plan?"
> 
> How about turning a new material? M3, Tru-stone, gator jaw blanks. How will a new product be introduced? How could we find out more about the Tru-Quarter blanks?
> 
> There are a lot of people selling stuff here. There are a lot of people who like to buy that stuff here.
> 
> I love coming here, sharing here, learning here - being part of this community. I have referred many pen guys and some gals to this place.
> 
> 
> Charging money for classifieds is fine. Please don't limit the sharing of information on a product just because it is for sale. The creator/modifier is the most knowledgeable person to ask - the very person who cannot provide public answers.


----------



## SCR0LL3R

jeff said:


> Premium classifieds is the place where claiming posts are allowed. Photos "X"ing will probably be allowed in both forums. Given the often large number of blanks sold in a single post, $10 should not be much of a burden. I have seen threads where hundreds of blanks are listed at $8-$12. $10 to sell $1000 worth of blanks doesn't seem too bad.



It sounds like such a small fee when you say it like that, but many these ads get posted, run for longer than 2 weeks and only a fraction of them are sold in the end. You are using a very big vendor with fairly high priced blanks as an example and assuming that they sell most of what they are advertizing.

Another concern of mine is not being able to post where you got your parts from... This I will miss. I think far more often than not it isn't blatant advertizing and the majority are going to pay the price for what a few want changed. In the end I feel the quality of the site will take a hit.


----------



## bruce119

SCR0LL3R said:


> jeff said:
> 
> 
> 
> Premium classifieds is the place where claiming posts are allowed. Photos "X"ing will probably be allowed in both forums. Given the often large number of blanks sold in a single post, $10 should not be much of a burden. I have seen threads where hundreds of blanks are listed at $8-$12. $10 to sell $1000 worth of blanks doesn't seem too bad.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It sounds like such a small fee when you say it like that, but many these ads get posted, run for longer than 2 weeks and only a fraction of them are sold in the end. You are using a very big vendor with fairly high priced blanks as an example and assuming that they sell most of what they are advertizing.
> 
> Another concern of mine is not being able to post where you got your parts from... This I will miss. I think far more often than not it isn't blatant advertizing and the majority are going to pay the price for what a few want changed. In the end I feel the quality of the site will take a hit.
Click to expand...

 
To me it's kind of like wall-mart moving into a variety plaza. Wall-mart cleans up the plaza and it looks great but all the little mom & pop shops moved away. Dose the community as a whole benefit from this at first most will say yes ..it's and clean and convenient.. but latter on I think they will miss the variety of the little shops. Now the bigger stores love it, it knocked out a lot of distraction & competition.

Just an analogy and my opinion

Like I said before we'll adapt and in a few months this will all be forgotten.

:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:


----------



## jeff

SCR0LL3R said:


> jeff said:
> 
> 
> 
> Premium classifieds is the place where claiming posts are allowed. Photos "X"ing will probably be allowed in both forums. Given the often large number of blanks sold in a single post, $10 should not be much of a burden. I have seen threads where hundreds of blanks are listed at $8-$12. $10 to sell $1000 worth of blanks doesn't seem too bad.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It sounds like such a small fee when you say it like that, but many these ads get posted, run for longer than 2 weeks and only a fraction of them are sold in the end. You are using a very big vendor with fairly high priced blanks as an example and assuming that they sell most of what they are advertizing.
> 
> Another concern of mine is not being able to post where you got your parts from... This I will miss. I think far more often than not it isn't blatant advertizing and the majority are going to pay the price for what a few want changed. In the end I feel the quality of the site will take a hit.
Click to expand...


Where does it say you can't post where you got your parts from?

*PLEASE EVERYONE!! STOP reading things into the rules which ARE NOT THERE!!!!*

A large percentage of the upset with the new rules is people interpreting things incorrectly. This is a perfect example. 

The ONLY thing we are asking is that vendors don't post prices, part numbers, web links to, and other sales information when they post in SOYP or when someone asks "where can I get X". 

VENDORS can post in SOYP and say "made with my cast blanks" or whatever.

ANYONE can post where they got their parts as long as they don't stand to make money if people buy that stuff.


----------



## rherrell

jeff said:


> Where does it say that you can't get answers from vendors?
> 
> Please quote here the part of the rules you believe prevents a vendor from answering questions.
> 
> 
> 
> *Rules for **Classifieds**:*
> 
> 
> $5 per ad
> One ad running at a time in this forum
> Ads can run for two weeks
> Five photos allowed
> One followup post per week allowed from seller
> No followup posts by others
> Right here Jeff, people can't ask me any questions in my ad, or am I wrong?


----------



## glycerine

rherrell said:


> jeff said:
> 
> 
> 
> Where does it say that you can't get answers from vendors?
> 
> Please quote here the part of the rules you believe prevents a vendor from answering questions.
> 
> 
> 
> *Rules for **Classifieds**:*
> 
> 
> $5 per ad
> One ad running at a time in this forum
> Ads can run for two weeks
> Five photos allowed
> One followup post per week allowed from seller
> No followup posts by others
> Right here Jeff, people can't ask me any questions in my ad, or am I wrong?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Technically, that rule has already been implemented.  We have all been asked to PM a vendor with questions instead of posting directly in the classified threads.  I've already had a few posts deleted because of that :redface:, but I understand why.  It keeps the threads clean and keeps them from being bumped everytime someone has a question...
Click to expand...


----------



## bruce119

rherrell said:


> jeff said:
> 
> 
> 
> Where does it say that you can't get answers from vendors?
> 
> Please quote here the part of the rules you believe prevents a vendor from answering questions.
> 
> 
> 
> *Rules for **Classifieds**:*
> 
> 
> $5 per ad
> One ad running at a time in this forum
> Ads can run for two weeks
> Five photos allowed
> One followup post per week allowed from seller
> No followup posts by others
> Right here Jeff, people can't ask me any questions in my ad, or am I wrong?
> 
> 
> 
> *Exactly we're not talking the forum we're talking the classifieds. Seems if you post something for sale buyers cant post anything *
Click to expand...


----------



## ed4copies

As I read it (which is subject to error), the "classified" is very much like a newspaper ad---you print it, they call you or write to you and you solve each issue privately.

The "Premium classified" allows you to make use of some of the benefits of "dialog" allowed in the "forum format".

So, before you post your ad, you need to decide what value the "dialog" has, to you.  If the answer is over $5, you should use the premium.


----------



## alphageek

bruce119 said:


> rherrell said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jeff said:
> 
> 
> 
> Where does it say that you can't get answers from vendors?
> 
> Please quote here the part of the rules you believe prevents a vendor from answering questions.
> 
> 
> 
> *Rules for **Classifieds**:*
> 
> 
> $5 per ad
> One ad running at a time in this forum
> Ads can run for two weeks
> Five photos allowed
> One followup post per week allowed from seller
> No followup posts by others
> Right here Jeff, people can't ask me any questions in my ad, or am I wrong?
> 
> 
> 
> *Exactly we're not talking the forum we're talking the classifieds. Seems if you post something for sale buyers cant post anything *
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Thats not true...
> 
> From the general rules section:
> *Buyers and Sellers Must Communicate By PM or eMail:* Posts such as “PM Sent" or "PayPal on the way", etc., are not allowed.
> 
> *“Claiming Posts” Allowed in Some Forums:* In the Steals &  Deals and Premium Classifieds forums, buyers may still make "claiming  posts", such as "I'll take X, Y, & Z" because that does serve the  purpose of informing others what items (usually blanks) are gone.
> 
> The followup rule is NOT to stop all questions.   It is to stop the needless bumping for things that people don't care about.    Most of the $5 ads will be types that don't need significant followup.
> 
> Dean
> Asst mod
Click to expand...


----------



## babyblues

bruce119 said:


> To me it's kind of like wall-mart moving into a variety plaza. Wall-mart cleans up the plaza and it looks great but all the little mom & pop shops moved away. Dose the community as a whole benefit from this at first most will say yes ..it's and clean and convenient.. but latter on I think they will miss the variety of the little shops. Now the bigger stores love it, it knocked out a lot of distraction & competition.
> 
> Just an analogy and my opinion
> 
> Like I said before we'll adapt and in a few months this will all be forgotten.
> 
> :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:



Bruce, how is the "little guy" going to get pushed out because of a $5 advertising fee? Really?! You've commented about this more than once, as have several others, so I think it's enough of an issue to address. This is the kind of overreaction that's making this discussion so convoluted. Try to keep things in perspective.

Those who are only getting rid of a few things they aren't going to use can post in the Steals and Deals section for free. And those who have more to sell, whether alot or a little, can use the classifieds for either $5 or $10 per ad. That means the "little guy" needs to adjust their prices or adjust the way they advertise products so that they can make more efficient use of their ad.


----------



## babyblues

alphageek said:


> The followup rule is NOT to stop all questions.   It is to stop the needless bumping for things that people don't care about.    Most of the $5 ads will be types that don't need significant followup.



There you have it. Not complicated to understand.


Is it possible to set up a FAQ section where buyers can ask questions where everyone else can see the answer? Each vendor could have their own thread where they list FAQs and answers. Even though the Premium Classifieds will allow people to post in the ad as they have been able to do all along, it might be helpful to have a place to post questions about a particular product that someone sells on IAP. That way potential buyers could get answers to their questions without having to search through the Classifieds to find a specific ad, any question that's already been asked will be in one place, and vendors wouldn't have to answer the same question over and over again in another ad or PMs.


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## jeff

You can discuss your products in the open forums whenever a discussion surrounding them us going on. 

The classifieds are for selling stuff, not having the long conversations that occur there.



alphageek said:


> bruce119 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rherrell said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jeff said:
> 
> 
> 
> Where does it say that you can't get answers from vendors?
> 
> Please quote here the part of the rules you believe prevents a vendor from answering questions.
> 
> 
> 
> *Rules for **Classifieds**:*
> 
> 
> $5 per ad
> One ad running at a time in this forum
> Ads can run for two weeks
> Five photos allowed
> One followup post per week allowed from seller
> No followup posts by others
> Right here Jeff, people can't ask me any questions in my ad, or am I wrong?
> 
> 
> 
> *Exactly we're not talking the forum we're talking the classifieds. Seems if you post something for sale buyers cant post anything *
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Thats not true...
> 
> From the general rules section:
> *Buyers and Sellers Must Communicate By PM or eMail:* Posts such as “PM Sent" or "PayPal on the way", etc., are not allowed.
> 
> *“Claiming Posts” Allowed in Some Forums:* In the Steals &  Deals and Premium Classifieds forums, buyers may still make "claiming  posts", such as "I'll take X, Y, & Z" because that does serve the  purpose of informing others what items (usually blanks) are gone.
> 
> The followup rule is NOT to stop all questions.   It is to stop the needless bumping for things that people don't care about.    Most of the $5 ads will be types that don't need significant followup.
> 
> Dean
> Asst mod
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


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## jeff

*My dear old dad*

My dad had two favorite quotations; "*The best laid plans of mice and men often go astray.*", and "*The road to hell is paved with good intentions.*" I'm feeling his presence as we try to work through this classifieds overhaul.

Folks, my intentions were good. Everything I do with regard to the IAP is intended to strengthen the organization, ensure it's existence forever, and to make coming here a fun and exciting experience for everyone. I thought I had a good plan. The managers, moderators, and I put hundreds of hours into making changes that it has been clear are needed, and to put a means in place to generate revenue from the people who were profiting from our existence. 

So far, I've been pretty surprised that a few dollars for an ad, and cutting down on the clutter and chatter in the classifieds would be such a hot button issue. It makes me sad (to use a word that many of you are attaching to this issue) that we can't look downstream and see a bigger,  stronger, healthier IAP resulting from this initiative. It's a bit of a mystery why a few of you would be so venomous in your messages to me just because we're asking that you make slightly more efficient use of the classifieds. (And thanks to the few of you who have been so supportive!)

I have pretty thick skin, and none of this has really gotten to me on a personal level. Until a few moments ago. Someone wrote me to reemphasize his concerns over the new plan and he related something that absolutely floored me. He said that several people have called him and said that they know why we're doing this. Apparently they've figured out my hidden agenda behind the whole thing.

*The claim is that because I work for NASA, and NASA is cutting back and closing down programs, that I may be out of a job. *

It sort of sickens me to respond to this but I will. I hate to burst some people's bubble, but I'm a career federal civil servant with decades of service. If they shut down the entire agency, I'll be among a small group of people turning the lights off on the way out. The shorter answer: I don't need your money, people.

It disgusts me that people who know nothing about me, my job, my income, or my personal finances, would actually try to make that connection. But now at least I know that there's some sentiment out there that I'm doing this to line my own pockets.

Thanks again to those of you who see the vision and can adapt.


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## alphageek

Locking this thread...   I'm very unhappy that some have chosen to attack Jeff ... If you read this... I think Jeffs statement should give people something to think about for a bit.

He was VERY nice to ask for feedback and has listened to it.  The fact that Jeff had to make the above post sickens me a little.. Please do not create new threads about the classified rules at this point.   I'm sure that more will be coming, but there is very little discussion that hasn't already been asked.


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## jeff

I apologize for the rant. My human side sneaks out around my pointy ears sometimes. Those of you who have been with us for almost 8 years know I'm not a hothead!

Dean's closing of the thread was just his instinct to protect the quarterback. He was not trying to squash conversation. I welcome discussion and criticism. It usually leads to a better outcome.

We'll be having additional discussions in a fresh thread as soon as we digest all the issues raised here. Thanks for sticking with us through a somewhat confusing and trying time. We're heading for a better future, and a little discomfort today will be worth it.

I'm going to stick this thread so we don't lose track of it.


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