# Sometimes we forget we were once the new guy



## Joey-Nieves (Mar 31, 2015)

I've been around for some time now and have posted or replied to a post, only to have someone tell me I need to learn on my own before I ask a question. 

I've noticed that the most rude answers are in the advanced pen turning forum.  I was thought that the only dumb question was the one you didn't ask, so why do people get so upset when a fellow turner asks for a tutorial, or didn't look or find something in the library or simply wants to know how to do something before he ruins a blank?

I've read a really nice, humble post, respectfully requesting information, only to have someone answer in  a rough tone to " try it by yourself a then ask questions".  Doesn't this defeat the whole purpose of the forum?  Are we so "Advanced" that we can't guide someone in order to help them avoid our mistakes?  And let's not talk about when someone makes a suggestion or a technique that we don't agree upon.

I think that if a member feels that a reply to a post is a waste of time, he should just skip to the next, or if the question is to simple that only a child would post, then he should just ignore it.

There is no one way to make a pen, there is no proper way to make a pen, there is only safe ways to make pens and that is all.  
Together we have to collective knowledge to teach the next generation of pen makers the art that we so passionately discuss here, maybe we should try to teach more, and repeat ourselves more like the teachers that we loved back in school, 

we are all students, we are all teachers!


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## wob50 (Mar 31, 2015)

I feel that if I get a negative response, why ask any more questions. I was told the only time you stop learning is when you die. I have lot of questions. 

Robert


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## jeff (Mar 31, 2015)

Joey-Nieves said:


> I've been around for some time now and have posted or replied to a post, only to have someone tell me I need to learn on my own before I ask a question.
> 
> I've noticed that the most rude answers are in the advanced pen turning forum.  I was thought that the only dumb question was the one you didn't ask, so why do people get so upset when a fellow turner asks for a tutorial, or didn't look or find something in the library or simply wants to know how to do something before he ruins a blank?
> 
> ...



That's certainly not the sort of thing we like to hear!

Can you give me an example where you were told you need to learn on your own before you ask a question?

Any other examples you could provide of this type of reply?

PM me if you prefer.


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## Cmiles1985 (Mar 31, 2015)

Very well said Joey. I know that I have seen the same questions posted time and time again. I'll read each reply just to see if I can learn something that maybe I hadn't thought of even if it is simple. Then you get the obligatory post that is very demeaning. It's just amazing. This community is full of wonderful, helpful people. If it weren't for THIS site (not facebook pages, not Woodcraft, not anywhere else), I'd have never made a pen! It hurts when I see someone post a rude, demeaning or belittling reply to a question!


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## wyone (Mar 31, 2015)

Well I have to say... there is really only one way to turn a pen..  however works for YOU...  the reality is that what works for one person may not work for another.. so give it your best shot..  ask for advice.. but in the end..  use whatever means works for you. safely of course..    I know some of the methods I used a few months ago I no longer use, in part because I have developed more skills and confidence.  I used to have to sand EVERYTHING starting at 100 or 120..  now I rarely start lower than 320..  I have learned and developed MY skills.. and the best way I did that was by reading. watching.  but mostly experimenting and seeing what works for ME.


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## robutacion (Apr 1, 2015)

Joey-Nieves said:


> I've been around for some time now and have posted or replied to a post, only to have someone tell me I need to learn on my own before I ask a question.
> 
> I've noticed that the most rude answers are in the advanced pen turning forum.  I was thought that the only dumb question was the one you didn't ask, so why do people get so upset when a fellow turner asks for a tutorial, or didn't look or find something in the library or simply wants to know how to do something before he ruins a blank?
> 
> ...



You know Joey, your observations to that issue are most true, unfortunately...!

The learning curve to handle, deal and accept the crazy ways "communication" in web forums can take you, is as unpredictable as the learning process on handling and dealing with pen turning and its, ins and outs.

I have said this many times and while we are all different, there are things happening in these forums that should not exist but that, is a learning lesson on its own.

It is true that, many folks have forgotten how it was when themselves got into the pen turning issue, it saddens me that some people not only forgot that but, have no patience and or interest in teach/help others.  Not everyone is a good teacher, and not everyone is a good student/learner so, it becomes obvious when you are in a place like the IAP where, some members don't care, nor take the time to teach, explain, guide someone through a process or a number of processes that themselves may have had difficulty with but, after they went over that hurdle, some go as far as push people away so that, they don't learn the secrets that they have also learn from someone else, as if that would give them the upper hand and the monopoly of making good sales, there is a name for that kind of behaviour that, I and many others here would call, greediness...!

The one thing that you have to learn and accept is that, don't judge the book by its cover, not everyone on IAP is like that and those that are so, are a minority and the thing that will most surprise you and most of us  is the fact that, regardless if they wont to share if or not, we can learn so much from them just by watching so, they have a place here, such as everyone else, like it or not.

Do I like it, absolutely not but that, is my own opinion and sometimes, and part of the learning curve, you learn who you want to deal with/talk to and simply ignore those that treat you as if they are "superior beings" and you are nobody.

So, and as I said in the beginning, learning how to handle how some people wants to treat you and simply ignore it, it will be you best tool and chance for you to ask the question again to someone else, and ask as many time as you see necessary, until you get the answer you need.

One advantage of being a live member on a web forum, is the fact that, you can interact with others and that alone is one of the most rewarding feelings a newbie will get.  Going to a forum library to search for the answers, is no different than making a Google search, in fact, every subject/issue, idea, image that we have on IAP library, is available on net, without you to require to become a member, of a live forum. Why do people join in, because they can see that, this place can provide them with a unique help/assistance/guidance and one to one tutorial if necessary...!

One would think that, the easiest and most effective ways to avoid those members that you will be better ignoring, would be for IAP to have a list of names that you would be advised to ignore however, that would contravene some of the IAP guidelines/rules and would be also considered "discrimination" by law so, as helpful as that could be, is not the way it works...!

Pretty much the same happens with something that you are just learning about, sure, is smart and advisable that, one try to learn as much as possible before one gets "hands on" and while is most possible to give you guidance in avoiding "SOME" problems, is almost impossible to prevent someone from, ALL PROBLEMS...!

I'm pleased to see IAP owner (Jeff), requesting some info about those being less than hopeful in here, if I am to make a suggestion to "them" is that, if assisting others with whatever the questions/issues they may have, is not for you, please, don't do and say anything, you will be making a much better service to all of us here on IAP, let others that are happy to answer the same question as many times as is necessary and avoid the bad feelings or a bad taste in ones mouth, that can generate, as a result...!

Over the years, you learn that, some arguments are not worth the time and energy, one's has to consume, is like you seriously struggling with a blank that made you already sharp every one of your gauges (quality ones) and even though, you are at the verge of destroying it, you followed all traditional ways but, it simple doesn't happen and you paid good money for that blank and you do not want to see it destroyed however, and after spending all that time and energy trying to be "technically correct", you remembered of something that you saw/read among all these "options" that, it makes sense and is known to be effective so, you decided to give it a go and, guess what, you endup with a perfectly turned pen that you so proudly show to everyone on IAP.

You will get lots of "nice" pen comments, and among all those giving you the thumbs up, there will be some of those people that, didn't give a hoot if you succeeded or not,  and while they think that, you follow the "traditional" methods, making that pen, you get their positive comment HOWEVER, if you decided to mention the less traditional method/system you used, they would probably turn their head the other way or give you a less than pleasant comment.

So, you have 2 options as a newbie or even, if you are not a newbie, if you are not yet skilled and proficient (how could you, you are just starting..!)  with traditional wood turning systems/methods, you either are honest to yourself and do not hide what you used to get it done or, you will allow yourself to feel inferior and useless in fear of being criticised by some people.

You start that trend and you will be "stuck" for life, you will always fear to mention anything and therefore, you are causing more damage than good, not only to yourself but, to all the other new turners that will be confronted with the same problems as you did, and they will never know what you did that made you create just a magnificent pen, everyone (those that could count...!) loses.:frown:

It remind me of something that I learn from my father, when I was a little toddler and working with him as a house painter.  I was always sanding wood, windows, doors, etc, etc., everything was made with wood and off-course, that was one of the jobs that my father though most suitable for me so, I would spend days, doing nothing else, sanding wood by hand.  I soon learn that, doing so for long periods of time, you not only get callus in your hands but, and before those callus form, you get lots of blisters that hurt like hell, but that, you may already know, huh...??

What you may not know is that, anyone in the medical fraternity and or used to "traditional" remedy and curing methods/system/products would give/sell you or suggest that you use creams of all sorts, right..??? it may be so however, my father with his long experience in these issues, he had a non traditional system/method that he would swear, is the quickest and the most efficient way to reduce the pain/burning sensation and actually dry the water bubble and heal the skin, pretty fast, and that was, peeing as often as possible, on the affected fingers...! No, you don't wash it, you rip a piece of plastic from a plastic bag, cover it over and the wrap it with masking tape, always available to us, on the job...!

I would have 100 other less traditional methods/systems of "things" that work in so many cases where traditional method, are not effective or helpful in those situations, what would I call that...?? why would I be bother in trying to find a "correct" term for it or try to justify its efficiency to some people, what a waste of time that would be, it would be a lot better to pass on that knowledge and make sure people understand that, what others may think, in situations like these, are not that important, after all..!

Cheers
George


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## mredburn (Apr 1, 2015)

Part of the issue with advanced pen making, kitless specifically is there is no one right answer. There is an article in the library that can help you work through it but it does not give you simple steps with measurements to build a pen. It was written that way because answers you figure out yourself have more meaning than answers someone just hands you.  It also means that when you want to  change something you will understand how it affects everything else in your pen design. Its under taps and dies for kitless pens under the references tab.

I believe some of the answers that are considered rude are simply blunt, not meant to be rude but to the point. That can be considered rude depending on who is reading it.

There is a problem with the search function. That problem is growing every day.
We are approaching 1.5 Million posts and doing a search now brings up so many responses you cant read through them all.  I know when I go to a new site and I look for information and the search brings back 256 pages of hits Im not going to spend this lifetime reading all of them. 

Another issue is that if you are new to the site you may not not know the key words to do a search that will produce a viable answer.

The absolute best response I read to "try the search function" was written by TonyL.  To paraphrase him.  Asking the question again brought responses from members he might never interact with otherwise, thereby making new friends from those that responded. 

I believe its time to stop saying "do a search first".
Rather its time to answer the questions and if possible provide links to the answers or let someone who wants to answer the question do it.


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## TonyL (Apr 1, 2015)

Someone can tell you whatever they want; unless he/she is your only source of information (or there is a forum rule about it), you may be stuck - but I bet he or she isn't (your only source).  I ask and ask no matter how many times that I am advised to the contrary. My multiple asks have always yielded more than one worthwhile responses. Just my way and experience.


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## KCW (Apr 1, 2015)

This is a great post, while I am still relatively new to the hobby, I have learned so much from this forum, and believe that I am progressing because of it.  I have definitely noticed the rude comments, and it is off-putting to say the least.  I spend plenty of time going through old posts, to try to learn something new, but sometimes I want a fresh perspective on things, and maybe from some new members that were not a part of the older posts.  It really shocks me, that people get so annoyed with new members asking a question that was answered in 2006, as if there is nothing new to add 9 years later.


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## robutacion (Apr 1, 2015)

mredburn said:


> Part of the issue with advanced pen making, kitless specifically is there is no one right answer. There is an article in the library that can help you work through it but it does not give you simple steps with measurements to build a pen. It was written that way because answers you figure out yourself have more meaning than answers someone just hands you.  It also means that when you want to  change something you will understand how it affects everything else in your pen design. Its under taps and dies for kitless pens under the references tab.
> 
> *I believe some of the answers that are considered rude are simply blunt, not meant to be rude but to the point. That can be considered rude depending on who is reading it.*
> 
> ...



I agree with you Mike, I highlighted red the areas that I particularly agree and that first highlighted paragraph, is one that, is so often mistaken or wrongly interpreted and the reason of so many arguments and bad feelings among members...!

One other thing is that, in our days, new turners have so many more and better ways to get the answers that need, technology and Internet are valued assets that older folks didn't have or even today, know how to use.

One other factor that has to be taken into consideration is that, the equipment is also different somehow, many of the problem we confronted when we started may not be the same problems as the new beginners of today.

Combining the two worlds of the old and the new, it would be a lot more beneficial for the present times, and we (the older folks) may need to reminded, informed, shown, by these beginners, what are exactly the problems they are confronting and need assistance for.  

No one single person, has all the answers, and that is just a fact...!

Cheers
George


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## KenV (Apr 1, 2015)

There are two sides to the discussion.    I continue to see those who are "pushy" about those who have developed "signature" techniques and outcomes telling the world (in tutorial format) all about how they can copy that work.

There continues to be debate in the artistic world (including turning) about the difference between interpretative copy of the learner, and the blatant plagiarism of those who seek to pirate the work and market an imitation.  

There are few protections for the artisan from those who seek to pirate.   Even where there are, there are a steady stream of posts about how to make something that steps into trademark protections and such.

Add to that the differences in skill and equipment, and the grey area is more than trivial.  

I do not have many signature pieces of turning and pen work.  The few I have cause me to pause and think before posting here.   Plagiarism is more of an expectation than an exception.


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## KCW (Apr 1, 2015)

KenV said:


> There are two sides to the discussion.    I continue to see those who are "pushy" about those who have developed "signature" techniques and outcomes telling the world (in tutorial format) all about how they can copy that work.
> 
> There continues to be debate in the artistic world (including turning) about the difference between interpretative copy of the learner, and the blatant plagiarism of those who seek to pirate the work and market an imitation.
> 
> ...



I can understand a cause for concern, with someone copying your work, although, I think that is a different subject.  Personally, if I had a signature piece of work, that could not be protected by the law, I would protect it by not posting it on a forum, where a major intent, is to share how you did it.  That aside, my issue is when someone replies with "figure it out".  If that is the reply I am going to receive, why am I here?


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## Joey-Nieves (Apr 1, 2015)

After reading your replays, I can see that some of you have notice this problem.  I agree with most of you that we all contribute to the forum, even the more rude ones.  
I even agree that some replays are more blunt than rude, and that members like Mike, who  often jumps in and trays to defuse a hot discussion, are what makes the forum great.  

Jeff I can point out some post for you, but the intention of my post is to bring awareness to the members.  I strongly believe in IAP and it's mission of helping, teaching and preserving the the Art of Pen-Turning, and that we can be more helpful if we are more conscientious of are answers.  So maybe we should post friendly reminders more often (so that they see a fresh date on the post).

There will always be people out for quick rides, copies and plagiarism, but that is not the point, but I'm referring to the learning questions, the legitimate ones that are answered and shortly once more asked again.  I promise to be more like Mike and answer all questions as many times as necessary. And, I also promise to continue to ask as many questions as I have, because I know that there are many ways do make Pens and some are easier than the ones I know, and I want to learn and maybe one day I will be _"Level 6 Pen Wizard, smoke, mirror and sleight of hand enabled."_

Joey-pen wizard apprentice.


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## jttheclockman (Apr 1, 2015)

Hey Skip, remember this one???? Just saying. 



http://www.penturners.org/forum/f18/please-thank-you-104921/


Lets add this one from Jeff too.

http://www.penturners.org/forum/f18/iap-forum-etiquette-70499/


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## Krash (Apr 1, 2015)

KCW said:


> I can understand a cause for concern, with someone copying your work, although, I think that is a different subject.  Personally, if I had a signature piece of work, that could not be protected by the law, I would protect it by not posting it on a forum, where a major intent, is to share how you did it.  That aside, my issue is when someone replies with "figure it out".  If that is the reply I am going to receive, why am I here?


 
Very well put. If you have some technique or concept that you are not willing to share with the community, then posting it on this forum is a passive-aggressive act of boasting and taunting others to figure it out .... IMO.

That said, this is an open forum for instruction for what has been done and display for what can be done. There are those who are energized into experimentation by seeing a skiprat or Mark Gisi creation (or many others, these just rolled off my mind), and there are those who are driven into confusion and self-doubt. I would think, if one were not wanting to share an original process, that a disclaimer of exclusivity should be included with the original post. People have their reasons whether or not we deem them appropriate. But, if one were to claim exclusivity, I would hope that they have a polite disclaimer for those who might request any details into the process.


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## jttheclockman (Apr 1, 2015)

There are many misconceptions in this thread. This topic has been brought up time and time again. There are different ways to look at things and if i start rambling I will be writing a 2 page report such as George did. Nice work George.. I went back to the Advanced pen turning forum and looked at quite afew threads and nowhere in there did i see any offending posts. I think the one thread the OP is referring to was one that was posted last year and someone posted to it. It it was a posting by a well known and willing to share person. His answers were misread  and I think that is what prompted this. Go back and read it and you will see there was no ill intent.

As far as bringing older posts back to life in case there are new developments. Well why not just start your own thread and not have to have people reread the entire thread to get caught up on what you are asking??  Seems simple enough. Now going back and reading older threads is encouraged and by all means a great way to gather knowledge but remember those members may no longer be here or do not post so they will not read your questions. 

As far as using the search feature and being out date to me is not true. Today's younger crowd have the ability to do searches all the time. They are more well rounded on how the internet works than i will ever be. Yes there are many threads that may come up with a search but there are ways to narrow it down. The google search feature here to me is the one that gets overlooked and is the one that is more direct. Found on the front page left side. maybe we need a tutorial on how to do searches. Oh wait i think there is one.  I think we have become a society where everyone want answers immediately and complain when they can not get them. Doing some work to find answers is half the learning experience here. It gets you to learn where to look and how to look for future references.

Getting tutorials for everything new is something that has been talked about here many times. Not going to happen. I have always shared any new thing I have done or any old thing I have done. Maybe i did not give away all the secrets but enough for the person to attempt them. 

When someone tells someone to do a search there is no negative aspect to this. I have used this term and have explained myself many times as to why so i will not do it again here. 

The typed word is tough. Everyone is different and their methods of explaining things may not suit you or you misread it but move on. For the most part this site is well behaved and I posted a couple links above this thread that maybe of interest to read. Oh yea I did a search for them. :biggrin:

Good luck all and have a great day.


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## Charlie69 (Apr 1, 2015)

The responses to the op show me how incredibly generous the members of  IAP are.   I know without the the wealth of information freely available  here I wouldn't know squat about making pens.   That being said I can  totally respect if a person here would like to show off their  craftsmanship and not share how they pulled it off.   Turning pens, like  any craft, requires a considerable amt of time and (yes) money invested  in tooling before a person is good at it.   It's nice for a master  craftsman to share how they did something but I certainly don't feel  like I'm entitled to his/her knowledge.    If I want to make a kitless  pen (for example) I need to do some homework and practice the  craft.    

Personally  I don't have a problem with using the search feature here at IAP.   In  fact I use it all the time and it constantly blows me away with how much  information is available.   A common question for people who want to  try their hand at kitless pens is what taps and dies to use.   A site  search for "taps and dies for kitless" with the search limited to  advanced pen making and fountain pens turned up one thread.   That one thread contains all the information about taps and dies that a person needs to get started.   With a minimum of effort the answer to almost anything I've wondered about pens is here at IAP!.     


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                                      Search took *0.08* seconds.                                *Search:*                               Keyword(s): *"taps and dies for kitless"*                                                                          ; Forum: *Advanced Pen Making* or *Fountain Pens*                                 </td> </tr>      <tr><td class="thead" colspan="2"> 
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## MikeinSC (Apr 1, 2015)

I've been using forums, message boards and mailing groups since 1998 and there has never not been the person who says "its already been asked", "try searching first" or my personal favorite is the person that will say "have you searched first?" and then posts a dozen links to other threads just to prove a point. It's usually a well seasoned pro that could have a lot to give but instead wastes their time posting links instead of answering and helping which usually discourages new people from participating.

Internets and a$$**les, a good combination.


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## low_48 (Apr 1, 2015)

No need for that last comment Mike. Not the kind of talk that newbies want to read either.


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## MikeinSC (Apr 1, 2015)

Oh, I don't know. Its not like the new person that gets blessed by the aforementioned people of the internet don't already think it. And there's little harm in calling it what it really is


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## JimB (Apr 2, 2015)

MikeinSC said:


> I've been using forums, message boards and mailing groups since 1998 and there has never not been the person who says "its already been asked", "try searching first" or my personal favorite is the person that will say "have you searched first?" and then posts a dozen links to other threads just to prove a point. It's usually a well seasoned pro that could have a lot to give but instead wastes their time posting links instead of answering and helping which usually discourages new people from participating.
> 
> Internets and a$$**les, a good combination.



I don't know why you think posting links isn't being helpful. When I first joined I had people answer my newbie questions as a post, I had some people send me PMs that were very helpful and some others posted links to answer my questions. I found all 3 types of responses very helpful. The links not only helped me with the answer but also showed me where to look in the future and often provided additional information that I didn't think to ask.

I still like it when people post links. I often click on them to see what I can learn. I never took offense when some would asked if I had done a search. Sometimes I had and other times i hadn't because I really wasn't sure of the terminology and what to search for.

For me, links are a great response.


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## Joey-Nieves (Apr 2, 2015)

John, to quote the black widow" you and I remember Budapest in a totally different way". 
The point is:


Why not skip the post if we feel the question is not worth our answer?
Why should The typed word be tough?
Why is knocking someone down, is more important than giving them alternatives?
Why should we accept as normal; rude, blunt and tough answers?
Why not just make a sticky about how to improve your search and point them there? (in a polite manner)
I'm just saying, let the people who want to answer a question do so, it  takes more time to make a tough comment than to jump to the next post.

I would believe that since the founding of the forum all of the most relevant questions have been asked and answered, so what do we do now?


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## Joey-Nieves (Apr 2, 2015)

JimB said:


> MikeinSC said:
> 
> 
> > I've been using forums, message boards and mailing groups since 1998 and there has never not been the person who says "its already been asked", "try searching first" or my personal favorite is the person that will say "have you searched first?" and then posts a dozen links to other threads just to prove a point. It's usually a well seasoned pro that could have a lot to give but instead wastes their time posting links instead of answering and helping which usually discourages new people from participating.
> ...



I think he was being sarcastic. he actually agrees with you!


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## MikeinSC (Apr 2, 2015)

Joey, thank you. You got it right. 

JimB, 
Links are great, I agree. It's how they are delivered to the new person is what I have a problem with. It happens all the time  on just about every single forum. Here's a simplified version of the type thread I'm talking about.

New Guy: "Hi I'm the new guy and I'm asking the same questions most new people ask but I'm new and don't realize that this question has been asked a thousand times already. Im just super excited to be here because Ive never done this before/i'm so glad I've found what I've been looking for, etc".  "I also probably don't know what to search for because I'm not familiar with the terminology of what to search for."

Reply guy #1.  Omg!!  Welcome! I don't know the answer to what you're asking but welcome

Reply guy #2. Dude, welcome to the forum. I think the answer you seek is this but I'm not sure. Hopefully an expert will come along and share some knowledge. 

Reply guy #3. O...M....G..... I can't believe another new person has asked a question without searching first.  It blows my mind that all the new people ask questions. I must make sarcastic and degrading reply. 

Hey new guy, why don't you search before asking first? Its really super easy and fun. See?  I'll show you how super easy and fun it is by posting multiple links in a way that shows you that if you'd have searched first, you wouldn't have had to make a thread asking a question that's been asked before.  I couldve just answered but instead I'll just be mean instead.

New Guy reply. I'm very sorry to have asked a new guy question. I didn't know exactly what I was looking for so I asked. I apologize and will search first next time. 

New Guy post count....2



I hope that explains further or perhaps in a different manner the type of internet forum person that I'm speaking of. Every site has them and that same type of person exists here as well. Whenever I see that same basic scenario play out on a forum, I look at the new guys post count and it almost always stops after that kind of encounter.


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## JimB (Apr 2, 2015)

If the scenario you described happens then it would be inappropriate. However, I don't remember seeing anything like that on IAP. Yes, I have seen some people suggest doing searches and posting links to show what can be found but I have never seen the rude comments you describe.

I don't participate on any other forums so I can only speak to what I see here.


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## KCW (Apr 2, 2015)

I just wanted to add one more thing.  While some of the posts here can be taken as rude, or insulting, this is easily the best forum, I have ever been a part of.  People here are, for the most part, more than willing to share their knowledge freely.  Maybe the most amazing thing, is the generosity of the members, willing to help people in need of assistance.  Numerous times, I've seen, where one member will send someone a pen kit for free, just because they needed it, or a vendor was completely willing to help someone with a product, that wasn't even sold by them.  Basically, even if there are a few members, who are "blunt", the many, many others, who are not, easily out weighs them.  That's all, thank you to everyone here.


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## Joey-Nieves (Apr 2, 2015)

KCW said:


> I just wanted to add one more thing.  While some of the posts here can be taken as rude, or insulting, this is easily the best forum, I have ever been a part of.  People here are, for the most part, more than willing to share their knowledge freely.  Maybe the most amazing thing, is the generosity of the members, willing to help people in need of assistance.  Numerous times, I've seen, where one member will send someone a pen kit for free, just because they needed it, or a vendor was completely willing to help someone with a product, that wasn't even sold by them.  Basically, even if there are a few members, who are "blunt", the many, many others, who are not, easily out weighs them.  That's all, thank you to everyone here.


  Ohh I agree with you 100%, but all we are saying is that we are the best, but we could use a tad more politeness.


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## Joey-Nieves (Apr 2, 2015)

MikeinSC said:


> Joey, thank you. You got it right.
> 
> JimB,
> Links are great, I agree. It's how they are delivered to the new person is what I have a problem with. It happens all the time  on just about every single forum. Here's a simplified version of the type thread I'm talking about.
> ...



Mike you got it totally wright!  That is what I'm talking about!


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## jttheclockman (Apr 2, 2015)

Joey-Nieves said:


> John, to quote the black widow" you and I remember Budapest in a totally different way".
> The point is:
> 
> 
> ...



Here is a pure example of why the typed word is tough. What the heck are you talking about????????????  I do not know of the Black Widow. 

Joey I do not know if you are pointing me out as an offender or not and I really could care less but let me say something here being you are a NEWBIE as you want to be called. Why not just go to Jeff if you have a problem??? Why make an issue that is not there. As I said this topic has been brought up before and has gone nowhere.   I will also point out a couple more things. The yellow triangle on the bottom of the post is to alert the moderators of a problem that you think has occurred. Next if there is an offending person then just block them and you will not have to read them again. This thread is not looking good on the front page all the time. 99.9% of the people here are good and solid people. Now catch someone on a bad day then maybe things may be a bit sour. Move on. The world is not a perfect place to live in. There is nothing wrong here.


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## MikeinSC (Apr 2, 2015)

Jim, 
I will agree with you that it doesn't happen here very often. The overall kindness of this forum helps keep that action to a minimum by not encouraging it to begin with. This site and lumberjocks have the nicest group of people I've ever encountered on a forum.


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## Joey-Nieves (Apr 2, 2015)

JimB said:


> If the scenario you described happens then it would be inappropriate. However, I don't remember seeing anything like that on IAP. Yes, I have seen some people suggest doing searches and posting links to show what can be found but I have never seen the rude comments you describe.
> 
> I don't participate on any other forums so I can only speak to what I see here.



Jim, 
Here this are a  some mild examples:


*Offensive question:*"I have searched the IAP library for a tutorial on kitless rollerball, but have found nothing. Have I missed something?

If none is available, can any of you share with me your vast knowledge on the subject?



"I can't think of much that would be needed for a roller ball specific tutorial.
Not sure what drill bits to use?  Measure the roller ball refill and design from there.​Not sure why you need a spring?  Write with a roller ball until you understand.​Not sure how to design a roller ball pen?  Take one apart and study it.   Come up with a better design of your own or copy what you know works."​All he  wanted was how to make a roller ball section, that by the way, they are  not that easy to make.  He could have searched and still not found the  post I sent him because it wasn't directly related, so you see some are  fast to put in a retort.


*Offensive question:* Okay all. I know I'm a rookie at this but I had an idea. If I were to  start and compline a document who would be willing to contribute or  correct (why I said I'm a rookie) a basic guide on custom pens. It would  be a living breathing document to start.


There are tutorials in the library. There, I said it. Although it  bothers some members when we say this but, what else is the library for?  And, why did we bother writing these articles if we still are expected  to take OUR time to usher those who want it made easy for them? 

I was fortunate to be in the right place at, the right time and, got  some visual instructions (a lot) but, soon after I, along with a few  others started discussions about this way of making pens and, they are  still in the forums. Mostly in the ADVANCED PEN MAKING forum. I can give  you a hint as to where to start looking. I posted my first kitless pen  in the SOYP forum X-XX-XXXX Also, if/when I stumbled, I asked someone  for help and, always got help. 

But, I'm pretty confident that, someone will answer to the call. Just not ME. Sorry fellas! Good luck!
Mmmm, no offense (name) ...but there are many members here, me included,  that take a lot of time and go to some trouble to explain how they do  things. 
I can name you ten such pen makers that have just given up trying to help and slowly but surely left IAP. 
Instead of following those pen makers in their threads, and perhaps  showing some appreciation in their threads, do you now want us to  re-write everything  and put the info nicely in one place to make it  even easier for those that can't be bothered to put a bit of effort in??

If there is one thing I cannot stand, it's the comment / demand I read  all too often here these days.....'Show me how you did that!!' With no  please, thank you or even a 'kiss my arse'

This is the second time in as many weeks where someone has tried to  chastise me because I have made a comment that wasn't directly on topic.  Well sir, you may remember that it was my off topic comment that  suggested the option of the  double start tap and die in the first  place.

Good night.
 
To be as blunt as the ones I'm trying to  put some sense in, there was no need to be rude or blunt or a tough writer or what ever,  for that matter, if someone thinks he's above anyone here than he is in  the wrong place, because we are all pen turners who want to learn and  share!  And since I'm being blunt, I'm one great turner, who can and *does* figure things out by himself, but I'm also *Smart*, the wheel was invented a long time ago and the secrets of pen making where crack by the great minds that follow this illustrious forum, so why not ask?, and you, me, John, Mike, the other Mike, as well as every member here, have a lot to teach others.

All we want is to do it with; friendship, harmony and* RESPECT!
*(Back to UN-blunt Mode)


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## Ed McDonnell (Apr 2, 2015)

Joey - Since you picked me as your example, let's make sure we have the facts straight.

A pen maker I knew (from numerous prior posts and interactions), and who I considered to be an advanced pen maker, asked a question in the ADVANCED forum LAST YEAR.  I provided what I consider a perfectly acceptable response to that ADVANCED pen maker in the ADVANCED forum.  I wasn't responding to anyone but him.  Certainly, not responding to you.  If the Post Originator had a problem with my response, he would have said so and I would have attempted to answer in a different way.  LAST YEAR! 

A pen maker who I am not familiar with subsequently declared my response to be "harsh" in that thread.  If we were in a newbie forum, maybe so.  But in the ADVANCED forum I don't think so.  And to be very clear, I'm going to be very blunt right here.  Who appointed him (or you) as the forum police to be judging me or anyone else?  What is your real objective here?  

You can be assured you won't ever get a blunt / harsh response from me going forward.  I don't have time to waste trying to figure out how to delicately and diplomatically word responses to people who are just looking  for any reason to be insulted.  I would rather spend my posting time trying to help people who can use the help and who appreciate it.

Ed


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## wyone (Apr 2, 2015)

One thing I must ad..  I am not young any longer..  sigh.. but I am pretty good with internet searches and such.  I have been turning for less than a year.  I know I have asked more than my share of dumb questions.  It was not because I thought I was asking a dumb question.. I just did not realize it was a dumb question, or one that had been answered before.

But one thing that happened from asking questions, and taking advice, even if it was something I did not understand at the time was I actually was able to make some really awesome contacts with experts here.  I have had probably 15 of you long time turners who I consider to be experts reach out to me privately and give me direction, advice, etc.  

I probably learned more about this hobby from those contacts than I learned from the library, and I have learned TONS from the library.  I think being willing to listen, take direction, not take offense, has shown to those experts that I am open to learning.  

I have received some negative comments on my posts, and truthfully it stung a bit at the time, but then I stopped.. and thought.. no.. this is not negative at all, this is constructive criticism.  I have never received a comment from anyone here that has not been to try and HELP me.  What other forum can anyone say that about?

All in all..  still the absolute BEST forum on the internet, thanks to the site owners.. and the members..  THANK YOU ALL


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## Dalecamino (Apr 2, 2015)

Please tell me what's wrong with my response? Aside from being the answer you wanted. I try NOT to be rude although, maybe just in a hurry and, fail to chose my words correctly. 

I'll ask you to look at my post count. MANY of those posts involved replying to other members with answers to questions. When I made some decal pens I received 14 PMs asking "How did you do that?" I replied to each of them with the answers in detail. ONE.....said thank you. 

The question you have pointed out as your example was directed to pen makers which, I responded to because, I've made a few was, an idea. But, I didn't agree with necessarily. Anything else I can help with, please feel free to ask. I'll try to respond in a MORE friendly way. And, I mean that.


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## Joey-Nieves (Apr 3, 2015)

I didn't Identify no one in my response, because it wasn't the point, but the fact that you were all willing to own-up to your responses speaks highly of your character, honest men with honest answers.

Said that, the point of this thread was to bring awareness of our replies, I can't be wright to treat people in the advanced forum differently than the rest or have the misconception that because you post in the advance forum your above good manners.  I'm very sad that none of you can understand what I've been trying to say, and think that my feathers have been ruffled, what saddens me more is that you may choose not to participate in any thread that I post, because I for one welcome your knowledge and I can handle your direct approach.

My point is that new comers to our society could feel intimidated and choose not to post, because our information base is based upon the threads we post, (that is why we need to come up with good titles for our post), the better our information the more instructive the search results will be and there will be less repeated questions.

As for this thread; I believe all has been said, both side of my argument have been covered better than I expected, I for one don't post much, because I'm a full time pen turner that doesn't have the time, so I pick the questions that I can contribute the most and post the questions I need answers for.

I hope there are no hard feelings
Happy Easter to All
Joey


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