# Pricing Policies



## Old Griz (Jun 21, 2005)

*This is not a stab at anyone... but something that has been discussed on other forums without resolve.
I do expect a lot of flack on this one.
Please keep responses respectful of all members*

There tends to be two types of penturners selling at craft shows...
 Those that are just hobbiests and just want to recoup costs and sell at what some feel are drastically reduced prices
 Those to whom penturning is a part-time (or full-time) business and sell at prices appreciably higher than the hobbiest.

_*The Question*_*</u>:
In General, do you feel that the sale of crafts by hobbiest at "just get some cash back" prices hurts the crafters who are doing the same work as a part-time (or full-time) business*


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## coach (Jun 21, 2005)

Tom,
I am not full time by no means.  With that in mind, I do charge a fair price for my pens.  Every show I have been that has pen turners, the other booths have very low priced pens.  These pens are not finished at all!  There is no artistic value or creativity.  Just mass produce and sell pens cheap!  The few customers I lose to them probably aren't my customers anyway.  Most of my customers know what they are talking about and appreciate my laminations or modifications.  All of them love my finish.  I guess it equals out in the end.


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## Monty (Jun 21, 2005)

I consider myself a hobbist, however I charge what the market will bare. I wish I could get upward of $30-$40 for a slimline and $40-$50 for a cigar pen, but in the shows I've shown at I get about $10 per pen less. Maybe I haven't hit the right shows yet.


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## Rifleman1776 (Jun 21, 2005)

I answered 'yes' but only because burning at the stake would be too gentle. [] In the retirement community where I live we see a lot of this. Many retirees, who are excellent craftsmen, will sell very nice small furniture items, sometimes at less than the wood cost them. A member of my woodturners club will sell beautiful bowls for $10 to $30 when, at the right store they could command $100 to $300. I have seen well-to-do potential buyers laugh at the idea of a $30.00 pen. [!]  On the other hand, many women can turn a $10 t-shirt into a $50 'fashion item' by adding 50 cents worth of glitter to it. Go figger.


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## BogBean (Jun 21, 2005)

We should charge what the market will bare. I have never sold at a craft show but will this coming holiday season. I will start high to test the waters...


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## Ron in Drums PA (Jun 21, 2005)

Of course low priced hobbyist hurt people who are trying to earn or supplement thier income. The problem as I see it is the hobbyist have no clue they are leaving money on the table.


Chuck, you got the right idea, it's always easier to lower a price than it is to raise a price.


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## ctEaglesc (Jun 21, 2005)

I have wrestled with this.
We live in a "free" market society.If someone can produce the _same _pen for less money and is happy with the amount they receive,that's one thing.
I turn very few pens that are just cut the blank glue and turn.
Some of the ideas I come up with take a few days to glue up as in the case of the bloodwood maple fiasco( that is sitting in a jewlers store as I write).
There is a woman turning deer anlter pens and selling them for $20.00 in the town I live in.
I have seen the work and though for some they are a novelty, the finish is no where what I would consider to be "quality work" that I would put it  a retail store.
I have seen bowl turners at shows that have a table full of wood pens and they can't give them away.Usually they are priced around $15.00.When I ask how are the pens selling the answer is they used to be good sellers but everyone is doing them now too much competition.
It appeared to me there was no question as to why those particular pens were not selling.Virtually no originality,No matter what the customer sees, to some it's just a wooden pen.
The ones that I get the most interest is are the ones that show creativity and uniqueness.

We as turners know why a cross cut palm pen should sell for more, because of the degree of difficuly.If it takes me 3-4 hours to turn a pen like that, I am not going to sell it for the same price as a stright cut bocote though both make beautiful pens.(If someone wants to sell a cross cut palm for the cost of the kit times three they are nuts.)
I believe there is a quote some where that says
"A true craftmans knows the value of his efforts"
At some point I think we all decide whether we are "Craftsmen" or Hobbiyists regardless how much we sell them for.
After only a few months of making pens I was accused of being an "artist"
Artists wear berets and work in a studio,I wear a railroaad cap and work in a building designed to hold a riding lawn mower.
By my own definition I don't think I am an artist.The woman who told me my pens were art and owned the gallery defined an artist as some one who makes "art"
Personally all I ever try to do is turn out something that is different and find the market for people who appreciate it.
(No sense burning at the stake, it might make a good pen blank,I would suggest drawn and quatered but let me see the rope first so I can detemine if it would make a good pen.Boiled in oil? better not be linseed oil I can use that for a CA finish.If you just shoot them, can I have the casing? I bet it would make a nice pen))
[]


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## Old Griz (Jun 21, 2005)

> _Originally posted by cteaglesc_
> <br />_After only a few months of making pens I was accused of being an "artist"
> Artists wear berets and work in a studio,I wear a railroaad cap and work in a building designed to hold a riding lawn mower.
> By my own definition I don't think I am an artist.The woman who told me my pens were art and owned the gallery defined an artist as some one who makes "art"[:_D]


Eagle, you are an artist... as is anyone (I believe) who lives by the quote in my signature 
"A man who works with his hands is laborer
A man who works with his hands and mind is a craftsman
A man who works with his hands, mind and heart is an artist"
The factor is "heart", just putting your mind and hands to the task is fine, but until you have the heart to see what is being created, you are truly not working to your full potential... 
While we may not see our pens as "art" as defined in a dictionary, I feel that if we have put our heart into our work, they qualify


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## coach (Jun 21, 2005)

Very nicely said Eagle!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## ed4copies (Jun 21, 2005)

OK, Griz, you want fightin' words?

If you want to sell to a higher end customer, enter a higher end show.  If the guy makes it past the "jury" process, the "crap" is eliminated.  Then, he has to plop $500 on the table to get in.  "Keeps out the kids".

If you have spent $20 to get in the show, the "barriers to entry" are minimal.  Then, to compete with the "junk", you need to educate the buyer to the fine points of penmaking.

Eagle will have FEW problems.  Honestly, Griz, I don't think YOU will have any problem unless your pen pictures are incredibly enhanced-YOUR PRODUCT EXCELS!!  People will pay for excellence!! SOME people.  The guy that sells a "hand-made" pen that looks crummy is competing with BIC.  We (most of us here, who continue to try to improve) sell gift and collector items.  Also, we can appeal to the executive market. (Sometimes, the local delivery truck driver, with a desire to impress HIS customers).  

Gear your presentation to the quality of your product and you will sell to YOUR buyer.  This is NOT everyone.  People with a "Walmart" mentality or people attending a local flea market & "craft" show will probably not spring for your pens.  But, even if they did, would they respect the time and effort you have spent??  

Sell your pens for the price YOU want, if I am $10 cheaper, convince the customer YOU are worth $10.  (After all, one guy turns for the president, one for Marks, I just turn for Joe Blow.)  Sell your credentials!!  They are a marketable commodity.

Last, thank-you for sharing your expertise.  As each of us raises our standards, there will be a couple hundred better penmakers in the country.  A rising tide CAN lift all boats.  Only those of you who excel can make the rest of us realize there is room to improve.  As we (I) improve, my selection will include higher priced items (Barons, Statesmen, etc) on which I have spent significantly more time than the slimline.

As we find we are CAPABLE of better results, the whole "industry" will move "up-scale".  Griz, Eagle and a few others will be personally responsible for the escalation-but it will take time. [][] Patience and persistence go hand-in-hand.

I didn't vote, which category does this fall into?


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## gpadgham (Jun 21, 2005)

I have to agree with Ed.  Market is everything in whatever form of business you try to build.  Perception is a big influencer in the market as well.  I try to market my pens as handmade gifts with sentimental value, not just a pretty writing intrument.  I haven't experienced competing with anyone in craft shows yet because I can't build up my stock.  I've been making pens for years now, and I don't think I've ever had more than 20 "in stock" at any given time.  People always ask me to see what I have around, or I am working on custom orders for pens that I've already sold.  I've strictly ran by word of mouth so far.  I feel my prices are fair, I don't feel like I'm loosing money or being under paid for my time, and customers are happy.


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## loglugger (Jun 21, 2005)

That is known as free interprize in a free contry. Would you prefer the goverment to set the price. If you are making art , take it to a gallay..If you're making pens for everyday people, take it to the craft show and price at whatever the people are willing to pay.........


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## Old Griz (Jun 21, 2005)

> _Originally posted by loglugger_
> <br />_That is known as free interprize in a free contry. Would you prefer the goverment to set the price_.
> I don't believe I ever said it was not free enterprise or that I thought the government should set the prices... I asked if people who drastically discounted prices hurt those who do not. Plain and simple question
> 
> ...


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## ed4copies (Jun 21, 2005)

"I have done 2 local juried shows where there were other pen turners. I have no idea how one passed the jury process with what he had on hand... there were sanding scratches and blotchy finishes on most of his work. The other had nicely done pens, but no real selection of styles... I was fortunate to do a good deal of business in both shows"
Quote from Old Griz

Griz,

That's NOT "fortunate".  Your product CREATES your good fortune.  An informed consumer (your job to inform) will detect the advantages of your product and PAY MORE!  Why?   'Cause it's worth it!!

You offer higher quality, better selection and higher price.  If everyone wanted the least expensive, we'd all be driving Yugos (but wait, they are no longer available in the US, are they??)  Guess that says MOST consumers will pay extra for better quality-if you can show them WHY it is better quality.

BTW, the jury process is inherently flawed. First, jurying pictures can be doctored to make the product look much better than it is, second, if there are not enough applicants to fill the hall, the jury tends to become blind and allow anything.  (We see this more and more-if you need to sell a lot to pay for the space, imports offer higher volume and higher margin:  This is a problem!)


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## ed4copies (Jun 21, 2005)

OH, some day I gotta learn how to do that "Quote" thing.[][][]

I'm gettin' smilies down pat!


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## Ron in Drums PA (Jun 21, 2005)

> _Originally posted by ed4copies_
> <br />OH, some day I gotta learn how to do that "Quote" thing.[][][]
> 
> I'm gettin' smilies down pat!



Look at the date above the post and click on this image


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## ed4copies (Jun 21, 2005)

Thanks Ron!!  

It WAS pretty complex.[B)][B)][B)]


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## DCBluesman (Jun 21, 2005)

I wish I'd had a choice that said "1 and 3".  There's no question about lower priced pens eating into the market for higher priced pens.  Ask Ford and GM what happened to them back in the 1970's.  Also, I'm quite certain that Montblanc would sell more fountain pens is Lamy, Schaeffer, Pilot, Parker and others did not sell fountain pens in the $25 - $100 range.  All that being said, I still come back to "who cares".  It's a free market.  It's a craft show environment.  If someone sells at a craft show to cover the cost of their hobby or to even partially offset the cost of their hobby, I say let them.  The quality of the article, the market in which it is being sold and the customer skills of the salesman will naturally segregate the buyers and the market will determine the winners.  Some will win financially.  Some will winner spiritually.  Some will lose.  That's what competitive selling is all about.  By the way, it's not just the craft show environment.  Pentel is now selling a dispoable fountain pen on college campuses for less than $10.  Guess whose sales are being eaten away...the higher priced pens.


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## ed4copies (Jun 21, 2005)

> Pentel is now selling a dispoable fountain pen on college campuses for less than $10



Ron, I'm a quick study-got the quote.

This points out two things:
1. People are willing to consider a $10 item "disposable".  IT ain't ALL about price.
2. If the college kids learn to use a fountain pen, ALL penmakers will benefit.  After they graduate from school, they can graduate to an "Old Griz original".  They will most certainly LOOK for it on the internet.  (Craft show attendees start at age 80 and work up!)


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## airrat (Jun 21, 2005)

I guess I would fall into the catagory of hobby penturner to you Griz.   I have done a few laminates. But I am still learning and have not done alot.  I tend to do more of the "cut, glue and turn".  

I also question the statments about people being members of this forum and not posting pictures.  As some of the past few post have said a picture can be doctored.  So what does pictures being posted have to do with a statement from them.  I dont have a photo album here either.  I post alot from work and have just not had the time to put them there.  But now I question putting any there with the "tone" of your post and how I am seeing some of the feelings represented towards the "casual or non business" turner.  I would like to make a business out of this but right now I have alot to learn and expirement with.

I really thought this forum was a group of turners to help each other.  A post like this to me is more detrimental then benificial.


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## Old Griz (Jun 21, 2005)

Tom, I have nothing against the "casual or non-business turner", I was one once myself.... and I should not have made the statement about posting pics... it was out of line and I apologize to all concerned.. 
As for you being a "cut, glue and turn" penmaker.. that is what we all are... if you look at my work you will not see any major changes made in the pen kit.  I tend to be fairy conservative about what the pen looks like.. 

I prefaced my poll question with this statement:
_"This is not a stab at anyone... but something that has been discussed on other forums without resolve.
I do expect a lot of flack on this one.
Please keep responses respectful of all members"_

I got a little ticked because I did not feel the response was respectful to all the turners on this site, whether they are creating art or everyday pens.


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## loglugger (Jun 21, 2005)

Old Griz,  I am sorry if I offended that was not my intentions at all. I guess it was the question which is a definite yes as anyone should know. I am made to think that you are making  pens to make money when some people might be making pens to have fun with them, some thing to do in there retired years that donâ€™t want to make a job out of it and loose what little bit of fun there might be in it. I do not sell my pens , and should have kept my mouth shut. I started making pens for the Freedom pen project when it started and other than a few gifts that is where they have gone. I got a Kodak to post pictures but then I didnâ€™t  take the time to do it. What is the purpose? A member of 9 month and no pictures has nothing to do with 63 years of age- most of my working life self-employed logger until I had a tree come down on my head, 1 more reason to keep my mouth shut.  I have seen this same kind of question  come up on trucking and logging. Any time there is a product involved it will always come up and there is nothing that can be done about it unless the government or some one or some thing in power  sets the price.
Robert Lee
Lebanon Oregon


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## simplepens (Jun 21, 2005)

There is definitely a difference between the hobbyist and the craftsmen trying to make or supplement his income. I had my lathe about a month when I got my first (and only so far) big order...50 cocobolo slim lines. Loved it when I got that cash...but when I look back at the quality of my pens...not as good as I want to be. I decided that I didn't want to be a hobbyist...I wanted to be a craftsman that sold quality work. That is what sets us at IAP apart from the "hobbyist"...we all strive to be craftsman of the highest caliber.


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## scalawagtoo (Jun 21, 2005)

Can a newbie join in?
When I started selling pens I asked $15 for Slimline. $25 for Classic parker Style  and premium twists.  All "cut glue and turn" straight duplicator cuts. I had no idea what other penmakers charged.  A friend in Florida says Office Depot has wood pens for $30-$50.

Most of my customers are looking for unique gifts and no-one has ever complained about the price.

Now that I have been motivated by the master pencrafters (artists or craftsmen, whatever.), I am putting more work into original designs.  I am considering charging another five dollars for a unique slimline, maybe more for a heavier pen.

I don't sell pens that don't meet my standards. ( today I hid a tiny crack under a clip on a slimline.)  All of my pens are waxed.  I will, as I move on, try CA Blo and other finishes.

I do discount pen for special customers at times.

If I continue to have problems meeting demand then the price, of course, will go up.

It's a free country!  Stand on a streetcorner and give away free pens for all I care.  Disciminating buyers will recognize quality and pay the premium.


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## opfoto (Jun 21, 2005)

Not wanting to fan any flames, I just voted. Simply put, I think that if the "market" bears stated price for a particular quality item then one should get the market price. Of course, Congrats are in order to those that have achieved the higher level and can get a higher price for their work. I hope to someday have the passion to drive the hobby!


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## bigvoots44 (Jun 21, 2005)

griz,i am glad to see your retraction of the statement about 9 mts etc. from everything i have seen posted by you, you are bigger than that,Whether you believe it or not you are an artist and deserve the prices that an artist deserves.Myself with my slimlines am a hobbyist and get paid what my work is worth. It subsidizes my learning and I hope it will allow me to come close to the plateau that you are sitting on.
fred


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## Daniel (Jun 21, 2005)

I voted yes. It does hurt the "Business" Penturner. But to as to that I will also say that is the arena we play in. Everyperson wether they sell them at top dollar, or give them away. Paid the same dues to do so. we all ahd to accuire our shops. it is still time talent and monay that is invested. It is also every individuals right to do with the product as they choose. I am sorry that it hurts the Business type turner, but clearly it does. there does tend to be some seperation in quality usually. and this helps. I also think the someone devoting enough time to consider penturning a business also has a tendancy to exploit markets that the casual turner would not. so there are some equalizers.


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## scalawagtoo (Jun 21, 2005)

I'm sure it does hurt people who want to make a bizness of it.

I knew of one guys who was undercutting wages at a  truckstop unloading trucks.  They knocked him out and put his head under an eightteen wheeler's tire.

Kinda squashed that problem1


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## Rifleman1776 (Jun 22, 2005)

Griz did nothing to offend anyone. His original question sought opinions, e.g. "...do you feel...". My response was yes they do hurt. But that doesn't mean that, even though I don't like low priced competition that I am opposed to the free market concept. Lighten up, the 'burning at the stake' statements are humor. Period.


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## laspringer (Jun 23, 2005)

I voted yes, it does in the short term but no in the long term. I am one of the penturners that sell my pens for less than the average. The way I look at it, my target customer is the first time buyer of a handcrafted pen. Once they write with one they will be hooked and give up on the 10 for a dollar pens. Soon after that they will likely upgrade to the higher qualty pens and that is when I hand it off to the people with more creative powers and craftmanship than myself. I an not trying to under cut anybody,just opening the door for a larger customer base for the people using penturning for a business in the higher end market. I am sure all of you have had customers return and tell you how much the enjoy the pen or pens you have sold them. That is allllllmost payment enought.

Thanks Alan


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## ldimick (Jun 23, 2005)

This reminds me of the old story about the violin for sale at an auction. Everyone laughed as the auctioneer tried to get a dollar for the old fiddle.

An older gent came forward and picked it up and played a wonderful tune. All of a sudden the bidding was up to $1,000 for the classic violin.

If your product is superior then you are not competing with the low end. You get what you pay for.

I do resent the wording of the poll as it seems to demean the hobbyist.

As a network engineer should I, or do I have the right to, resent the small business owner who asks his son to set up his network since he might be taking away from my business?

Just my 2 cents worth - and you might be overpaying.


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## Old Griz (Jun 23, 2005)

Lynn, The wording was not meant to demean the hobbyist... it was just a way to separate those who just do penturning hobby and those who try to do penturning as a part-time or full-time living.
I have a feeling that no matter what term I used, I would have been slammed for it...


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## Fred in NC (Jun 23, 2005)

Right Tom !!!  

"Live and let live" -- "To each his own"   etc.

I saw this guy at a fair.  He was selling pens for $18 each, no matter which kit, wood, etc.  Some looked nicer than others.   Well, later on some people commented to me about him.  The funny thing, they bought pens from me at a higher price !!!


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## penhead (Jun 23, 2005)

Actually, to a certain point I would have to say 'yes' you do.
Being a network engineer myself, there isn't a week that goes by that I meet someone that say 'oh, you do computers', and they relate to me that they just hooked their computers up to the Internet with broadband, and now after a few weeks lots of things don't work and seem real slow...first question to them: you do have a firewall correct...inevitably their answer is: no, I have antivirus though and there is nothing on my computers that anyone would want anyway..yes, you do, 'bandwidth'...try explaining DDoS to someone who doesn't know what an RJ45 connector is and lets his youngster hook up the network..

As far as being a 'hobbyist'...I must say, I resemble that remark...and proud of it...to me it just means that I have a job and don't have to rely on selling my turnings for a living to support my family.





> _Originally posted by ldimick_
> <br />This reminds me of the old story about the violin for sale at an auction. Everyone laughed as the auctioneer tried to get a dollar for the old fiddle.
> 
> An older gent came forward and picked it up and played a wonderful tune. All of a sudden the bidding was up to $1,000 for the classic violin.
> ...


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## ldimick (Jun 23, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Old Griz_
> <br />I have a feeling that no matter what term I used, I would have been slammed for it...



You're probably right.

No harm - no foul.


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## ldimick (Jun 23, 2005)

> _Originally posted by penhead_
> <br />Actually, to a certain point I would have to say 'yes' you do.
> Being a network engineer myself, there isn't a week that goes by that I meet someone that say 'oh, you do computers', and they relate to me that they just hooked their computers up to the Internet with broadband, and now after a few weeks lots of things don't work and seem real slow...first question to them: you do have a firewall correct...inevitably their answer is: no, I have antivirus though and there is nothing on my computers that anyone would want anyway..yes, you do, 'bandwidth'...try explaining DDoS to someone who doesn't know what an RJ45 connector is and lets his youngster hook up the network..



I see (and experience) your point but I don't resent them. I look at them as future business. They think they know what they want but they don't know how to get it. 

To me it's just like the question that I always get - "Wow! How do you make those pens!?" I tell them. But just telling them doesn't make them able to do it. The result is the same as buying a $5 pen - you get somethng that may work but it is not the same quality as the $25 slimline.

I still say that the $5 pen buyer is not our market. The buyer will soon realize their 'mistake' and will start looking for a better quality product. I look at the $5 buyer as someone who is still learning and doesn't realize they want the $25 SL.

I don't want the first time $5 buyer. I want them AFTER they bought the $5 pen. Let someone else educate them.


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## penhead (Jun 23, 2005)

Yes, I agree with you that 'resent' would not be present in that scenario.
Its just so darn frustrating when people think they can do networking/security themselves and save money, they have no idea just how much they are hurting everyone else who connects to the Internet.

I also agree with what you say about the pen buyer and market value..!


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## airrat (Jun 23, 2005)

Griz I hold nothing against you for the choice of words in naming the thread.  I completely understand your "arguement".  You pens are a work of craftsmanship and do deserve to be put in a higher standing.  I hope one day I can stand toe to toe with your quality.  

I hold nothing against the hobbiest that does this for "fun" and wants to sell some of what they make.  Undercutting a fellow woodturner would be a little frustrating to me as well.  However, if they raised their prices to match your better quality pen could also work as a negative.  They are now saying my stuff is just as good as his.


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