# Trouble with segmenting...



## Ray-CA (Sep 18, 2021)

I’ve tried using gift and credit cards for segmenting without any success.  They glue up fine but fail either while drilling or turning.  It appears that the material has a paper core and that is where the separation occurs.  

What/where to buy stock for this type of segmenting?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated

Thanks.


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## magpens (Sep 18, 2021)

BearToothWoods has some small sheet material for segmenting.

Superior to credit cards, and in a variety of colors . . . some include laminations . . . e.g. black/white/black layers.


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## jttheclockman (Sep 18, 2021)

Ray-CA said:


> I’ve tried using gift and credit cards for segmenting without any success.  They glue up fine but fail either while drilling or turning.  It appears that the material has a paper core and that is where the separation occurs.
> 
> What/where to buy stock for this type of segmenting?
> 
> ...


There are those that use cards for segmenting and get away with it. Probably because of the segmenting being done but there are far better options and that is to buy sheets of acrylics in many colors and there are many sources. Once again this thread is a beginners place to look for sources. 

https://www.penturners.org/threads/segmenting-material-resources-draft-library-article.167867/

When it comes to black and white there is no better source and material to use than this.

https://evergreenscalemodels.com/


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## Kenny Durrant (Sep 18, 2021)

I use guitar puck guard material from Stewmac. You can buy it by the sheet and cut off what you need.


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## mark james (Sep 18, 2021)

I'll also recommend pick guard and the segmenting strips from Beartoothwoods.  The Beartoothwoods material is sourced from a very skilled segmenter - "Gisi", and I have had great success with it.  I have never had good luck with Styrene, so buyer beware, or you may have better luck than I.


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## leehljp (Sep 18, 2021)

Depending on your type of segment, a technique change might help. For spacing material, I drill my holes and then assemble them on the tubes. When I get the correct order and length of segments, I use 15 to 30 minute epoxy, glue and clamp the segments on the tube. I do segments and use brass and aluminum more than cards or picks and have not had any problems - with the reason being - I am eliminating the problem you are having by using a different technique.

As to drilling and having problems: When drilling too slow or too fast of a speed, or too fast of a feed, to be honest, that is not a "technique" problem as much as a it is subjective. Too slow to one person is too fast as described by another - even though it may be the same speed, etc.

I have not had any fail while turning in the past 15 years and I turn at 2500 - 3500 rpm. Again, this may be a technique problem. I am OC in keeping a sharp tool at all times and sharpening (honing) 3 or 4 times during the turn of a single pen. I also take tiny bites. Patience is a virtue when it comes to segments and glue, and patience keeps the temperature down which causes separation.


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## jttheclockman (Sep 18, 2021)

Whatever plastic material you use for segmenting it is important to sand and roughen the face up before gluing. Glue will adhere much better to a rough surface than a slippery flat surface. I have used the poly styrene sheets that I linked to for many pens and continue and never had a problem. My glue of choice is always epoxy. The longer open time of the glue the more adhesive holding power it has. Now many things come into play when you say segmenting. Many different designs means different stress areas when drilling. Building a segmented blank on the tube like Hank has described is the easiest to make because you drill offsite before building the blank so that drilling stress is taken away. You can not always do that especially when doing things like Celtic Knots. Then the stress levels rise and drilling becomes touchy. But sharp bits, slow speed, and keeping things cool will work wonders. Good luck.


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## jrista (Sep 18, 2021)

jttheclockman said:


> Whatever plastic material you use for segmenting it is important to sand and roughen the face up before gluing. Glue will adhere much better to a rough surface than a slippery flat surface. I have used the poly styrene sheets that I linked to for many pens and continue and never had a problem. My glue of choice is always epoxy. The longer open time of the glue the more adhesive holding power it has. Now many things come into play when you say segmenting. Many different designs means different stress areas when drilling. Building a segmented blank on the tube like Hank has described is the easiest to make because you drill offsite before building the blank so that drilling stress is taken away. You can not always do that especially when doing things like Celtic Knots. Then the stress levels rise and drilling becomes touchy. But sharp bits, slow speed, and keeping things cool will work wonders. Good luck.



Roughing up the surfaces cannot be over-stressed. My first segmenting, which involved metal rather than plastic, failed due to insufficient roughing. I did rough up the flat surfaces of the metal, but it just wasn't enough to actually maintain grip once I turned the blank down to a much thinner tube.

For the OP: Remember that once the tube is drilled and turned down, the actual amount of wood in contact with the segmenting material is very thin, and if that thin strip of plastic or metal doesn't have sufficient roughness, then separation becomes quite easy. I had my metal strips separate from blanks twice, before I started using a coarser grit sandpaper and spent more time really roughing the surface up good. After that, I ceased having problems.

I also only use epoxy to glue my segments together. I used to use CA, but even for my brass tubes, I've found epoxy gives a much stronger, longer lasting bond (which I recently discovered in a new way, when I had to break off a faux stone blank from a brass tube...it ended up becoming quite the ordeal as the bond between the glue and the blank was EXTREMELY good, and took quite some time to pick off each fragment of the blank.)


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## sorcerertd (Sep 19, 2021)

This one held together well for me.  I used cardstock (botched printings of my business cards) soaked with CA (and it sucked up some CA).  It pretty much glued up like veneer.  Technically paper _is _wood.  This went on a PSI Executive, so there was some meat left on the tube, unlike the end result from some other kits.


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## leehljp (Sep 19, 2021)

jrista said:


> Roughing up the surfaces cannot be over-stressed. My first segmenting, which involved metal rather than plastic, failed due to insufficient roughing. I did rough up the flat surfaces of the metal, but it just wasn't enough to actually maintain grip once I turned the blank down to a much thinner tube.



This (roughing) is probably a method needed by a specific technique type, and I understand that. But other methods or techniques may or may not need roughing. I do metal and plastic to wood and have not resorted to roughing. I do clean them but not rough them. I do other methods for preventing separation - I often cover with string (gauze is recommended now) and CA gauze covered segments well. There are several step options and available from here, including precision drilling through the center after turning round.


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## Ray-CA (Sep 19, 2021)

I was doing a 90-degree segment across the blank with an old credit card.  Roughed up the card and wiped the dust off.  CA glued the joint and did use activator once.  That failed. Re-cut and glued again only clamped the blank (moderate pressure) for 30-minutes.  That also failed.  It is not failing at the glue joints, but the center of the segment material is coming apart.  It appears to have a fiber or paper core.


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## KenB259 (Sep 19, 2021)

Ray-CA said:


> I was doing a 90-degree segment across the blank with an old credit card.  Roughed up the card and wiped the dust off.  CA glued the joint and did use activator once.  That failed. Re-cut and glued again only clamped the blank (moderate pressure) for 30-minutes.  That also failed.  It is not failing at the glue joints, but the center of the segment material is coming apart.  It appears to have a fiber or paper core.


I believe, given what you last posted, the material you have is unsuitable, for segmenting.


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## jttheclockman (Sep 19, 2021)

leehljp said:


> This (roughing) is probably a method needed by a specific technique type, and I understand that. But other methods or techniques may or may not need roughing. I do metal and plastic to wood and have not resorted to roughing. I do clean them but not rough them. I do other methods for preventing separation - I often cover with string (gauze is recommended now) and CA gauze covered segments well. There are several step options and available from here, including precision drilling through the center after turning round.


I think we are going to have to agree to disagree because I highly disagree with Hank on the roughing thing. It may work for him but even wood when gluing wood to wood it is good to not sand to a high grit because you close the fibers. You want the glue to adhere to those fibers. If segmenting please roughen the materials and use the proper glues and make sure the glue is cured and not only dry. Any other method to keep the blank from separating can help by why chance the start of the blank by not roughing the material used. Even the master Gisi mentions to rough sand the materials.

Credit cards of some kind are layered and have an inner core that can separate so avoid them if possible. Good luck.


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## leehljp (Sep 19, 2021)

jttheclockman said:


> I think we are going to have to agree to disagree because I highly disagree with Hank on the roughing thing. It may work for him but even wood when gluing wood to wood *it is good to not sand to a high grit because you close the fibers*. You want the glue to adhere to those fibers. If segmenting please roughen the materials and use the proper glues and make sure the glue is cured and not only dry. Any other method to keep the blank from separating can help by why chance the start of the blank by not roughing the material used. Even the master Gisi mentions to rough sand the materials.
> 
> Credit cards of some kind are layered and have an inner core that can separate so avoid them if possible. Good luck.



Tell that to car manufacturers who have been attaching rear view mirrors to smooth glass and they are still attached in junk yards 50 years later. It was rocket science 50 to 60 years ago, but not now. You don't have to sand glass to make CA glue (or specific versions of epoxy) stick.  And wood has pores and fibers even if smooth as glass, so it should hold even better.

It never made sense to me 15 years ago when people said it had to be sanded to stick properly - I didn't have problems then. Plus, I am not a rocket scientist. Maybe it is just some people's techniques.

Disagreements are OK, but when one says it doesn't work - when in fact it does or can . . .

13 - 14 years ago: Segmented, plastic and holly with epoxy, turned, drilled after turning (IIRC) tube inserted with epoxy, no roughing needed; still holding together, in CA with my sister:








						Imported Photo from leehljp
					

Imported Photo from leehljp. Please edit title and description.



					www.penturners.org


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## jttheclockman (Sep 19, 2021)

leehljp said:


> Tell that to car manufacturers who have been attaching rear view mirrors to smooth glass and they are still attached in junk yards 50 years later. It was rocket science 50 to 60 years ago, but not now. You don't have to sand glass to make CA glue (or specific versions of epoxy) stick.  And wood has pores and fibers even if smooth as glass, so it should hold even better.
> 
> It never made sense to me 15 years ago when people said it had to be sanded to stick properly - I didn't have problems then. Plus, I am not a rocket scientist. Maybe it is just some people's techniques.
> 
> ...


If it works for you that is fine but it does not for me. Noticed I said "I". Well Hank as I said we will agree to disagree Why do rear view mirrors fall off then?? Just watched a auto shop replace a mirror and the first thing he did was sand the back of the pin to give it cross scratches so there is something to grab onto. Any woodworker will tell you when gluing joints you do not sand the joint smooth. Nothing about pen making is rocket science. I will continue to rough up my material. An ounce of prevention that adds so little time. As many segmented pens and complicated ones I make I need to take precautions.


http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...762878E883F712F29C25762878E883F7&&FORM=VDRVRV


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## leehljp (Sep 20, 2021)

jttheclockman said:


> If it works for you that is fine but it does not for me. Noticed I said "I". Well Hank as I said we will agree to disagree Why do rear view mirrors fall off then?? Just watched a auto shop replace a mirror and the first thing he did was sand the back of the pin to give it cross scratches so there is something to grab onto. Any woodworker will tell you when gluing joints you do not sand the joint smooth. Nothing about pen making is rocket science. I will continue to rough up my material. An ounce of prevention that adds so little time. As many segmented pens and complicated ones I make I need to take precautions.
> 
> 
> http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...762878E883F712F29C25762878E883F7&&FORM=VDRVRV


Glue myths:





						Glue Myths
					

Found this video rather interesting.



					www.penturners.org
				



Not CA or Epoxy (of which Epoxy is generally considered stronger).
Note: No Sanding


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## jttheclockman (Sep 20, 2021)

leehljp said:


> Glue myths:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My goodness!!! Hank I am done with this. I stated my opinion and have been woodworking as well as segmenting pens for a long time so I rely on my experience and not what others say. Do whatever you want. I am not telling anyone to listen to one word I say. Just made a statement and as I said look back Hank I used the word "I". Have at it.


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## jrista (Sep 22, 2021)

leehljp said:


> It never made sense to me 15 years ago when people said it had to be sanded to stick properly -



I guess I wouldn't say that it is so much about getting the glue to stick properly, but more so getting it to be resilient to shearing forces. I don't think I've actually had a problem with bonding, where the glue wouldn't actually bond to both the metal or plastic, and the wood. I think it has always bonded well... I'm pretty sure the trouble I've run into is if there is shearing force applied to the joint, when you rough up the surface, its more able to withstand that force and remain bonded. In my case, I had a vibration problem...and I think I had the tool shearing into the blank, which was causing the separation. I guess there could also be the right kind of force radially as well, just with tool to wood...

In the case of rear view mirrors, I suspect that there are normally never any shearing forces applied, so bonding smooth surfaces is likely fine. Even with pens, it isn't really that bonding smooth segments won't work, I'm sure it will. I think there are just caveats. Dropping a pen could potentially result in shearing forces....but, even then, there are probably caveats. For example, a segmented pen finished in CA, may never exhibit problems if there are no shearing forces applied during creation of the pen.


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## leehljp (Sep 22, 2021)

jrista said:


> I guess I wouldn't say that it is so much about getting the glue to stick properly, but more so getting it to be resilient to shearing forces. I don't think I've actually had a problem with bonding, where the glue wouldn't actually bond to both the metal or plastic, and the wood. I think it has always bonded well... I'm pretty sure the trouble I've run into is if there is shearing force applied to the joint, when you rough up the surface, its more able to withstand that force and remain bonded. In my case, I had a vibration problem...



I think you are correct in your thinking. For me, I could "see" forward in my plans that shearing forces would tear it apart - AND I planned for it before it happened. Like that New York bridge that was built twice as strong as it needed to be - I tend to over build, over plan, be overly protective and be overly cautious. And this is not new with me. "Eagle", a long ago departed pen turner introduced to me the idea of string and CA glue to hold things together that normally would explode. With the forces held in check during the initial turning process, the bond that you and others are concerned about coming apart, was not a problem to Eagle, or me or a few others who will simply think that way. Once the external string/gauze and CA are turned away, the normal epoxy bond is strong enough to hold everything together for normal pen operation. BUT it needs the initial string/gauze + CA to get it to hold during the stress times.


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