# PPPFFFFFF..........Ivory Empire



## Timebandit (Nov 2, 2011)

Well i wasnt going to show this, but since everyone has been attacking me today, i thought i better This pen ended up being a total nightmare to make. I made the pen yesterday and spent several hours yesterday dealing with a logistical nightmare and destroying 4 front sections, so i threw in the towel and called it a night.:frown: I restarted this morning and went back to the drawing board, and it took me 4 more prototypes out of clear acrylic to get a working front section. So i made the front section and got everything finished and tried to screw the cap on and it starts to get tight about half way in. I ran the tap back through it and even ran the die back over the barrel threads, but nothing helps. I have had this problem before and im not sure what is causing it. Expansion of the material maybe? I dont know. So this one wont make it to anyones hands but mine. Really makes one mad when this happens So anyway, this is an Empire in Cream (not ivory) Lucite with a #5 Bock feed and nib. Its a button filler and the cap is postable.

All Comments Welcome

Thanks For Looking

Justin


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## OKLAHOMAN (Nov 2, 2011)

Justin, don't give up on that look in Cream or White, as it is absolutely elegant. Maybe try it in Casein. Of course you could just send it to me and I'll file 13 it for you.


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## neubee (Nov 2, 2011)

I like it! It is very rich looking.


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## jasontg99 (Nov 2, 2011)

Justin,

    Your "worst" is better than my best.  I can only hope to make pens as nice as this.


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## Brooks803 (Nov 2, 2011)

I must admit I felt a small sense of satisfaction that it's not just me that has those issues. However, I LOVE this one. At first I thought it was made of that white corian I sent you. That really sucks that you went through that many blanks of Lucite! Not cheap stuff. If you ever figure out what's causing the pieces to not fit properly please let us know too. I'm happy to see that you stuck with it!:highfive:


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## bitshird (Nov 2, 2011)

Justin, for a mistake, it looks really nice, the shape and color work very well together, I hope you figure out the why and wherefore of the threading issue.
But I wouldn't feel to ashamed of carrying that "mistake". 
It looks like it's been a dog eat dog day and you're the poor guy in Milk bone Underwear!!


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## thewishman (Nov 2, 2011)

I like the pen. Looking at the title and then reading about the issues made me think of the price of real ivory. I was relieved that it was "only" lucite. That would have been a fortune otherwise.


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## RichF (Nov 2, 2011)

Justin,  I think the pen looks fabulous.  I hope that you can figure out what happened, because this one is a keeper.


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## watchman7 (Nov 2, 2011)

Wow! That pen is a keeper. Don't give up on it.


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## Texatdurango (Nov 2, 2011)

Timebandit said:


> Well i wasnt going to show this, but since everyone has been attacking me today, i thought i better This pen ended up being a total nightmare to make. I made the pen yesterday and spent several hours yesterday dealing with a logistical nightmare and destroying 4 front sections, so i threw in the towel and called it a night.:frown: I restarted this morning and went back to the drawing board, and it took me 4 more prototypes out of clear acrylic to get a working front section. So i made the front section and got everything finished and tried to screw the cap on and it starts to get tight about half way in. I ran the tap back through it and even ran the die back over the barrel threads, but nothing helps. I have had this problem before and im not sure what is causing it. Expansion of the material maybe? I dont know. So this one wont make it to anyones hands but mine. Really makes one mad when this happens So anyway, this is an Empire in Cream (not ivory) Lucite with a #5 Bock feed and nib. Its a button filler and the cap is postable.
> 
> All Comments Welcome
> 
> ...


 
Ooh this sounds soooo familiar! :wink:

Have you looked at the diameter of the tenon you cut for the sac to glue onto?  It almost sounds like the sac is rubbing the inside of the pen wall when you thread the section into the body causing some friction about mid way.  Another possibility is that the sac itself is twisting around the pressure bar as you're threading the section in.  Did you use plenty of talc?

I didn't realize how much the sac tries to twist around the bar until I made a clear prototype body then I SAW what my problem was.  You DID make a clear prototype didn't you? :biggrin:  If you did, another thing is to look at how the pressure bar touches the bottom of the body cavity.  Is it scraping the body causing it to kink in one position or is it moving freely around the cavity when the section is screwed in?


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## boxerman (Nov 2, 2011)

Sorry to here about all trouble. But still a very nice pen.


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## Dan_F (Nov 3, 2011)

Sublime! This would look killer in Alt Casein too. Do you have both the 12 and 14 mm tap sets for caps and barrels, and is this a 12mm, and the the #6 nibbed pens you've been posting recently the 14mm?

Dan

By the way, I once saw the following inscription scratched into a stall in the men's room of a University of Washington building, which I thought you would appreciate, given your sig: :biggrin:

"Engineering students credo: Beat a better path, and the world will build a mousetrap at your door."

I used this as a sig on some website for a while, can't remember which though.


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## Curly (Nov 3, 2011)

*I can't believe I might have the solution to Justin's problem.*

Justin when you say you ran the die back over the threads again to chase them did you turn it around so the backside of the die cuts all the way to the shoulder? If you didn't the threads at the shoulder are not full depth causing the cap to bind before seating. It is the die equivalent of a bottoming tap.

The other option is to turn away the first couple threads in the cap or drill with a clearance drill before tapping to cause the same unthreaded area.

Did I get it? Did I? Did I? If I did, do I get a reward? :tongue:  :biggrin:

By the way. To me pen says absolute purity. :wink:


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## wizard (Nov 3, 2011)

Justin, Some of the most ancient civilizations throughout history combined the beauty of the color of ivory..be it real ivory or stone, marble etc.. with the timeless and untarnished regal appearance of gold. Gorgeous pen Sensei!!! As always,  I admire your tenacity and patience....:wink:.however I bet you used some words in the workshop your mom wouldn't approve of.:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:. Regards, Doc


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## glycerine (Nov 3, 2011)

Timebandit said:


> So i made the front section and got everything finished and tried to screw the cap on and it starts to get tight about half way in. I ran the tap back through it and even ran the die back over the barrel threads, but nothing helps. I have had this problem before and im not sure what is causing it. Expansion of the material maybe?


 
Justin, did you put anything on the threads to try and make them screw together easier, maybe rub some wax on the threads.  I've had to do that on a wooden box before when putting on the hinges.  The heads on those tiny brass screws were actually breaking off, then someone suggested waxing them with bees wax.  
I know, it doesn't answer the question of why it's happening, but might make it easier to get the section in next time.


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## Timebandit (Nov 3, 2011)

OKLAHOMAN said:


> Justin, don't give up on that look in Cream or White, as it is absolutely elegant. Maybe try it in Casein. Of course you could just send it to me and I'll file 13 it for you.



LOL!! Yeah ive got a few other ideas for the Ivory look:wink::biggrin:



neubee said:


> I like it! It is very rich looking.



Thanks!!



jasontg99 said:


> Justin,
> 
> Your "worst" is better than my best.  I can only hope to make pens as nice as this.



LOL!! Thanks Jason!! You will!!



Brooks803 said:


> I must admit I felt a small sense of satisfaction that it's not just me that has those issues. However, I LOVE this one. At first I thought it was made of that white corian I sent you. That really sucks that you went through that many blanks of Lucite! Not cheap stuff. If you ever figure out what's causing the pieces to not fit properly please let us know too. I'm happy to see that you stuck with it!:highfive:



LOL!! I almost used the corian, but i wanted it more real, with the striations. The corian was just to....White I didnt go through a bunch of blanks luckily. I buy the Lucite in 18" rods, so it was just a whole bunch of 1 1/4" pieces that were wasted. But it was a least half of another pens worth of waste:frown:



bitshird said:


> Justin, for a mistake, it looks really nice, the shape and color work very well together, I hope you figure out the why and wherefore of the threading issue.
> But I wouldn't feel to ashamed of carrying that "mistake".
> It looks like it's been a dog eat dog day and you're the poor guy in Milk bone Underwear!!



LOL!! Thanks Ken!! Thats the worst kind of underwear



thewishman said:


> I like the pen. Looking at the title and then reading about the issues made me think of the price of real ivory. I was relieved that it was "only" lucite. That would have been a fortune otherwise.



Thanks!! I dont think i could have pulled this off with real Ivory



RichF said:


> Justin,  I think the pen looks fabulous.  I hope that you can figure out what happened, because this one is a keeper.



Thanks!! Thats the problem, i dont want to keep it. I want it to got to someone who will use it and love it, but it wont make it there as is. I will try to work it out.



watchman7 said:


> Wow! That pen is a keeper. Don't give up on it.



Thanks!! I never give up, just get discouraged sometimes:redface:



Texatdurango said:


> Timebandit said:
> 
> 
> > Well i wasnt going to show this, but since everyone has been attacking me today, i thought i better This pen ended up being a total nightmare to make. I made the pen yesterday and spent several hours yesterday dealing with a logistical nightmare and destroying 4 front sections, so i threw in the towel and called it a night.:frown: I restarted this morning and went back to the drawing board, and it took me 4 more prototypes out of clear acrylic to get a working front section. So i made the front section and got everything finished and tried to screw the cap on and it starts to get tight about half way in. I ran the tap back through it and even ran the die back over the barrel threads, but nothing helps. I have had this problem before and im not sure what is causing it. Expansion of the material maybe? I dont know. So this one wont make it to anyones hands but mine. Really makes one mad when this happens So anyway, this is an Empire in Cream (not ivory) Lucite with a #5 Bock feed and nib. Its a button filler and the cap is postable.
> ...



Yeah its not the tenon. I thought the same thing,and checked it. And its not the section im having the issue with, its the cap to barrel connection, with the triple start threads. The barrel will screw into any of the other pens that i have just fine, but vise-versa with the cap wont work. It still starts to tighten up half way in.

I did make a clear prototype. Its what i model all of the subsequent pens after. Its something with the material shrinking where the threads are in the cap. Maybe because the material is so thin?



boxerman said:


> Sorry to here about all trouble. But still a very nice pen.



Thanks!!



Dan_F said:


> Sublime! This would look killer in Alt Casein too. Do you have both the 12 and 14 mm tap sets for caps and barrels, and is this a 12mm, and the the #6 nibbed pens you've been posting recently the 14mm?
> 
> Dan
> 
> ...



Dan, i have both the 12 and 14mm triple start taps and dies. This is a 12mm, and most of the other pens i have posted lately, other than the Empire pens, have been with the 14mm. The 14mm will end up being my main size. That is until i get a metal lathe:biggrin:



Curly said:


> Justin when you say you ran the die back over the threads again to chase them did you turn it around so the backside of the die cuts all the way to the shoulder? If you didn't the threads at the shoulder are not full depth causing the cap to bind before seating. It is the die equivalent of a bottoming tap.
> 
> The other option is to turn away the first couple threads in the cap or drill with a clearance drill before tapping to cause the same unthreaded area.
> 
> ...



Curly, i didnt turn the die around, but thats because i always chamfer the inside edge of my caps to get rid of this inevitible die problem:biggrin: and i think it looks sweet:wink: And thats not the problem, because the threads start tightening before i ever get close to the shoulder.

And i even did try to remove the first few threads just in case they were fouled and were messing everything up, but still no help.

So to answer your final question......NO......you didnt get it.......but thanks for trying:wink: You are still a winner:biggrin:



wizard said:


> Justin, Some of the most ancient civilizations throughout history combined the beauty of the color of ivory..be it real ivory or stone, marble etc.. with the timeless and untarnished regal appearance of gold. Gorgeous pen Sensei!!! As always,  I admire your tenacity and patience....:wink:.however I bet you used some words in the workshop your mom wouldn't approve of.:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:. Regards, Doc



Thanks Doc!! There were a few choice words along the way:wink::biggrin:



glycerine said:


> Timebandit said:
> 
> 
> > So i made the front section and got everything finished and tried to screw the cap on and it starts to get tight about half way in. I ran the tap back through it and even ran the die back over the barrel threads, but nothing helps. I have had this problem before and im not sure what is causing it. Expansion of the material maybe?
> ...



Its not the section. Its the cap to barrel connection. The triple start threads. I just had trouble making the front section along the way. That problem has been resolved, but now a new one arose, after the pen was completed. Thanks for the help though:biggrin:


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## glycerine (Nov 3, 2011)

Timebandit said:


> Its not the section. Its the cap to barrel connection. The triple start threads. I just had trouble making the front section along the way. That problem has been resolved, but now a new one arose, after the pen was completed. Thanks for the help though:biggrin:


 
Oh... crappy triple start threads!  Just make it a "snap on"... or maybe wrap some duct tape around it...


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## Timebandit (Nov 3, 2011)

glycerine said:


> Timebandit said:
> 
> 
> > Its not the section. Its the cap to barrel connection. The triple start threads. I just had trouble making the front section along the way. That problem has been resolved, but now a new one arose, after the pen was completed. Thanks for the help though:biggrin:
> ...




LOL!! Your always such a  big hel:biggrin:  Thanks i think you just solved my problem.... I forgot the duct tape


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## cnirenberg (Nov 3, 2011)

Justin,
If it's not the tenon then the hole.  I've had this happen to me and found out that the barrel swells slightly when I thread the nib in.  Why?  I haven't the foggiest.  Maybe a reamer in the cap would work out.  I enlarge the hole in the cap with a slightly larger drill bit so that the barrel is covered by the cap a bit. A small boring tool would to do the job as well.


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## Timebandit (Nov 3, 2011)

Thanks, but like i said, i chamfer the inside of the cap, basicaly the same as enlarging it with a drill bit or drilling out the first few threads. Now i have had the barrel swell like you are talking about but i also chamfer the barrel for the same reason. Not only that, but it does this with the front section removed, so its not the front section that is adding to the problem. Its the cap alone. Something shrank is all i can think of.



cnirenberg said:


> Justin,
> If it's not the tenon then the hole.  I've had this happen to me and found out that the barrel swells slightly when I thread the nib in.  Why?  I haven't the foggiest.  Maybe a reamer in the cap would work out.  I enlarge the hole in the cap with a slightly larger drill bit so that the barrel is covered by the cap a bit. A small boring tool would to do the job as well.


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## drgoretex (Nov 3, 2011)

A very lovely pen, justin!

Fascinating problem though.  I have just experienced exactly the same issue with my triple start (12mm) on a lucite pen.  Have also, like you, ended up adding it to my personal collection instead of selling.  Even with a slightly small tenon, and the die clamped down in the die holder, still a tight fit.  Had to trim down the threads in side the cap with some 400, and now fits nicely, but not sure what the issue is.  Aslo, can't reduce the size of the die using its own screw, as the screw end sticks out just enough to jam it in the die holder.  Can only fit it in the die holder if I remove the die's screw.

Ah well, fun trial and error :befuddled:

Ken


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## manik (Nov 3, 2011)

Sweet looking pen!

I'm wandering if you need to use the duct tape? Not now, but wrap around the cap when drilling and taping to keep it from expanding?

Ok, maybe turn a fitting that will slip over the outside of the cap. Slip this over the cap when  drilling and tapping to keep that thin area from expanding while under pressure and shrinking back when the tooling is removed.

Just a thought.


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## sbell111 (Nov 4, 2011)

Texatdurango said:


> Have you looked at the diameter of the tenon you cut for the sac to glue onto?  It almost sounds like the sac is rubbing the inside of the pen wall when you thread the section into the body causing some friction about mid way.  Another possibility is that the sac itself is twisting around the pressure bar as you're threading the section in.  Did you use plenty of talc?
> 
> I didn't realize how much the sac tries to twist around the bar until I made a clear prototype body then I SAW what my problem was.  You DID make a clear prototype didn't you? :biggrin:  If you did, another thing is to look at how the pressure bar touches the bottom of the body cavity.  Is it scraping the body causing it to kink in one position or is it moving freely around the cavity when the section is screwed in?


I recognized a few of those words.


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## Texatdurango (Nov 4, 2011)

sbell111 said:


> Texatdurango said:
> 
> 
> > Have you looked at the diameter of the tenon you cut for the sac to glue onto? It almost sounds like the sac is rubbing the inside of the pen wall when you thread the section into the body causing some friction about mid way. Another possibility is that the sac itself is twisting around the pressure bar as you're threading the section in. Did you use plenty of talc?
> ...


 I guess I don't understand the purpose of your post.  I thought Justin was having problems screwing in his section so I offered some suggestions pertaining to things that I have encountered in the past when making button fillers.  As for the terms used, they are correct and sac is the proper spelling so I don't see any problems.  The post was to Justin and I'm sure he understood perfectly what I was talking about.


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