# Toni's black rose euro skunkworks project.



## edstreet (Dec 13, 2013)

In the immortal words of my underwater photography instructor ...  "Show me something I have never seen before".   Make no mistake about it, this is a skunk works project.   Group members: Toni, ed4copies, seamus, and me





> A skunkworks project is a project developed by a small and loosely structured group of people who research and develop a project primarily for the sake of radical innovation.





Here we have a radical concept, sculpted polymer clay in sharp corners, shapes that you could not normally do with just clay alone.  You might get some of them with clay alone but not when your dealing with things like translucent and the epic work from Toni.

This opens doors to a good variety of pen kits, i.e. euro and panache.

This one was the 'clean' production final shot.






The destructive testing sample.





Look at that heavy sharp 90 degree angle.  Then note that butterfly





Magnification testing





Oh and both tubes are the same size! FYI.






The epic casting from Seamus.
















I for one am glad this project has went from 'top secret' to public viewable as work of this magnitude should not go unnoticed.  Toni and Seamus both has put some very good quality work into this project while Ed helped me with testing and Q/A issues.

Hope you enjoyed this project, any questions?  Just ask.

Shame I can't share upcoming projects just yet.  Soon tho, very soon.


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## Beedeejay (Dec 13, 2013)

As I don't know much about these types of blanks, I know what I like to look at, and this I like:biggrin:

My wife seen the photo as I had it opened on the iPad and her response was , oohhh is that the blank for my next pen, I told her no & she wasn't too happy 
Oh wells she will survive

But I realy do love the look of these blanks, great job by all!!!

Cheers Ben


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## Joe S. (Dec 13, 2013)

WOW! That is as cool as it gets!

If I'm looking at this right; it's Toni's poly clay that is as thin as she can get it, and was then cast to magnify. Because of this you can now make kits with tennons and curved shapes.


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## SDB777 (Dec 13, 2013)

We as a pen turning community are better for having Toni and Seamus.  The amount of time needed to blend clay 'colors' to achieve this type of 'feathering' and then the time to make the 'canes' must be measured in months!  Not to take away from Seamus at all in the bubble free casting.


As always, I have questions....feel free to answer without giving up the 'top secret stuff' please.

#1:  Does polymer clay have to be sealed, or was the casting just to achieve the 'magnification'?
(I've always thought, once 'baked' it was adequate)


#2:  How does clay become translucent?




These blanks will make a wonderful addition to your website.  Way to go!!






Scott (skunkworks = unique name) B


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## asyler (Dec 13, 2013)

wow.. just wow.....


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## Dalepenkala (Dec 13, 2013)

Very cool!


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## edstreet (Dec 13, 2013)

Joe S. said:


> WOW! That is as cool as it gets!
> 
> If I'm looking at this right; it's Toni's poly clay that is as thin as she can get it, and was then cast to magnify. Because of this you can now make kits with tennons and curved shapes.



Bingo! Pegged that one real good there.  Lets say you have a cane that is very difficult to make and you have limited amounts of it.  This technique now allows you to use it very conservatively and maximizes the shape and size of the tube and gives the end user the same visual affect and not having to touch the clay itself.  Very radical concept there.




SDB777 said:


> We as a pen turning community are better for having Toni and Seamus.  The amount of time needed to blend clay 'colors' to achieve this type of 'feathering' and then the time to make the 'canes' must be measured in months!  Not to take away from Seamus at all in the bubble free casting.
> 
> 
> As always, I have questions....feel free to answer without giving up the 'top secret stuff' please.
> ...



This is what happens when put an INTP with skilled artists :biggrin:

1) The casting was done to obtain magnification, really funky edges i.e. tenons, uneven edges and drastic changes in shape where the clay would normally slide.  Essentially 'breaking through to the other side' of design limitations.

Also casting allows new turners to the tubes to turn them with out fear of damaging as it's clear castings as with snake skin, circuit board, watch parts and a whole slew of other ones.


2) Translucent clay is basically polymer clay without the color added. Though no clay currently available is completely clear or transparent, translucent clay allows some light (and color) to pass through it, particluarly if it is used in very thin sheets.  Very prone to scorching 'plaquing' and noted for being impossible to turn with conventional chisels on a lathe.

Oh and these went back to Toni for her personal stash.  Being mostly proof of concept and testing/evaluation tubes they do allow for serious enhancements to be done.


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## edstreet (Dec 13, 2013)

Beedeejay said:


> As I don't know much about these types of blanks, I know what I like to look at, and this I like:biggrin:
> 
> My wife seen the photo as I had it opened on the iPad and her response was , oohhh is that the blank for my next pen, I told her no & she wasn't too happy
> Oh wells she will survive
> ...



Exotic blanks sells her tubes and sadly she's backlogged and swamped right now.


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## alankulwicki7 (Dec 13, 2013)

Since I have only seen the polymer clay blanks on my computer screen, I've always wondered how durable they are. 

Would the casting also provide better protection for the clay or is it pretty durable as is?

Either way, this looks great!


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## edstreet (Dec 13, 2013)

alankulwicki7 said:


> Since I have only seen the polymer clay blanks on my computer screen, I've always wondered how durable they are.
> 
> Would the casting also provide better protection for the clay or is it pretty durable as is?
> 
> Either way, this looks great!



It is more durable than many think or at least more than it looks.  I did some testing here.  http://www.penturners.org/forum/f14/poly-clay-testing-pen-disassembly-clay-vs-anvil-116707/  From that project I used a hammer to remove the brass tubes on both barrels. 

Long story short the clay is basically PVC pipe.  May not be exactly as strong as a PVC pipe is but it's the same stuff.  Quite durable and all of that.

The casting would and does provide further protection as well as a finish.  There's no need for a CA coat at this point as the clear casting does just that.  These would be just turn to shape, sand and buff while a normal finishing would be light sanding then a CA finish.


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## Teeball (Dec 13, 2013)

Excellent work done by all.  :highfive::highfive::highfive:


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## creativewriting (Dec 13, 2013)

The casting adds a tremendous amount of strength as well as provide a comfort level to the turner.  Many folks avoid polymer clay due to the unknowns (durability, turnability, etc.) and by casting you reduce that tension.  It now becomes the same as turning a carbon fiber, feather, steampunk, etc. blank.  Casting also helps with the finish, as some people aren't comfortable with CA, and helps reduce the risk of air pockets in the clay when turning clay by itself.  It's a win win and adds another dimension to the forum.  Polymer has been cast for years (see the PMG gallery), but it's now made it's way here!

Great work Ed, Toni, Ed, and Seamus!




edstreet said:


> alankulwicki7 said:
> 
> 
> > Since I have only seen the polymer clay blanks on my computer screen, I've always wondered how durable they are.
> ...


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## lyonsacc (Dec 13, 2013)

This is a wonderful "new" advancement.  It opens up some many different possibilities!


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## ttpenman (Dec 13, 2013)

Really hope to try some of the incredible blanks someday.  I see them for sale once and awhile buut it seems that the few times I actually have a little extra $$ to spend they are out of stock.  Someday.

This new technique looks great, hope it works out well.

Jeff in northern Wisconsin


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## reiddog1 (Dec 13, 2013)

These blanks would give you a lot more options for shape.  I can imagine a very shapely razor with this.  Would be out of this world!!  Thanks

- Dave


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## BSea (Dec 13, 2013)

edstreet said:


> Long story short the clay is basically PVC pipe.  May not be exactly as strong as a PVC pipe is but it's the same stuff.  Quite durable and all of that.


Since it is basically PVC, I wonder if the resin will separate from the clay over time.  The reason I ask is that I cast in PVC.  Even alumilite will separate from PVC given enough time.  And silmar 41 easily separates from PVC tubing once fully cured.  So I wonder how long it's been cast.  I think to find out will take 6 months to a year to be sure the bond will hold.  I guess you could puit it in a toaster oven on low for a few hours, and let it set, just to speed up the process.

Don't get me wrong, I hope it's a total success.  Those blanks are outstanding.


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## creativewriting (Dec 13, 2013)

Here is a link to a PC blank I cast several years ago.  It was my first attempt with casting PC using a resin saver and Hobby Lobby PR. 

http://www.penturners.org/forum/f13/didnt-blow-up-63972/

Not trying to HiJack anything just providing info.  The post was from 6/28/2010.  This pen still looks like the day I made it.  No seperation after 3 years so I think we are safe




BSea said:


> edstreet said:
> 
> 
> > Long story short the clay is basically PVC pipe. May not be exactly as strong as a PVC pipe is but it's the same stuff. Quite durable and all of that.
> ...


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## BSea (Dec 13, 2013)

creativewriting said:


> Here is a link to a PC blank I cast several years ago.  It was my first attempt with casting PC using a resin saver and Hobby Lobby PR.
> 
> http://www.penturners.org/forum/f13/didnt-blow-up-63972/
> 
> Not trying to HiJack anything just providing info.  The post was from 6/28/2010.  This pen still looks like the day I made it.  No seperation after 3 years so I think we are safe


  That is good to know.  :good:


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## edstreet (Dec 13, 2013)

BSea said:


> edstreet said:
> 
> 
> > Long story short the clay is basically PVC pipe.  May not be exactly as strong as a PVC pipe is but it's the same stuff.  Quite durable and all of that.
> ...



This is the exact reason why we chose to bring in a group that specializes in each of the fields needed.  That way all these little avenues are covered and any concerns raised that are not addressed gets put on the testing board.  

I know how to spot bad castings, bad stabilizing and bad blanks among others but when it comes to doing the job and the like I would prefer to hand that part over to someone who has loads of expertise under their belt and doing a very good job already.

Hopefully this practice will rub off on others here.  Afterall this is the heart of what IAP is about.


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## its_virgil (Dec 13, 2013)

Here is a picture I made several years ago. It shows a snake skin blank before and after turning. I was trying to show how the curved surface of the resin magnifies and enhances the skin…or, in the case of this thread, Toni's excellent work. I really think what 
Ed shows is a great enhancement to Toni's work. PC under glass, so to speak, and her work looks great that way…   Thanks Ed.
Do a good turn daily!
Don


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## bobleibo (Dec 14, 2013)

I know nothing about casting so I can't comment on that, but those black rose blanks from Toni are hands down my favorite of any I have seen. There's just something about them, intricate subtlety. I think they can easily be a pen that a man would carry, roses and all. Not the colored ones, but the black ones fill the bill very well. 
Good job by all involved in this project. Shows what is possible. Some day I will get my hands on one of those blanks when they are available and before they get sold - which lasts all of about 10 minutes.


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## OZturner (Dec 14, 2013)

According to Alexandre Dumas in his Novel, The Three Musketeers, 
(in which there were apparently four) "Athos, Porthos, Aramis & D'Artagnan" who were challenged to see that things were "Safe, Just & Right" for the people of France.
 
Here in the IAP we have our own version of The Four Musketeers, namely "Toni, ed4copies, seamus & edstreet" who are making sure that a new innovation is "Safe, Just & Right" for all the people of IAP.
 
Long live the cry of "One for All, and All for One".
 
Sorry for the long rave. 
I was so impressed with the efforts and results achieved by this talented small band of Pen Crafters, that I had to draw this pseudo comparison.
Congratulation to the Team
Brian.


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## ed4copies (Dec 14, 2013)

While it is always nice to receive credit, I did very little!!

Ed and Toni have been collaborating on a number of ideas lately.  EdStreet is making many efforts to improve products and develop new ones!!  My only function has been that of "consultant". 

"If we build it, will they come???" is the question I hope I can help them answer.  

This is one of those times that, if you like an idea, COMMENT!!!  Positive reinforcement of "product development" can lead to new (and some I think are VERY interesting) "breakthroughs" in pen blank design.

Want new stuff???   Push EdStreet (to be clear WHICH Ed) by your positive feedback.

Great work to the three collaborators!!!
Ed (the marketing guy)


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## edstreet (Dec 14, 2013)

ed4copies said:


> While it is always nice to receive credit, I did very little!!
> 
> Ed and Toni have been collaborating on a number of ideas lately.  EdStreet is making many efforts to improve products and develop new ones!!  My only function has been that of "consultant".
> 
> ...




More often than not a good 'sounding board' is one of the best things you can have.  Someone knowing marketing way more than I do helps very good.  Besides there are not many who instinctualy picks up what I am rambling on about.

Baring any problems coming up this upcoming week there should be a new announcement of something new that everyone will benefit from.  I have already given a hint in my first post about it.

This is one of those things where any type of feedback is of very big benefit and one of the topics that strains my relationships with some.  Some see's things that I say as something bad but mostly the truth is they likely know half of the story.  Any feedback at all I do look at, even negative, and use that in the creation formation process that I go thru.  On any given day there is about a dozen ideas or more that I come up with, just one of the curses of being an INTP I suppose.

Interesting enough 'Musketeers' comment really makes me think about rapiers, feathers, floral, handle bar mustaches and chocolate.


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## Band Saw Box (Dec 14, 2013)

Very cool, well done by all. Is the group looking to be as well known as Kelly Johnson's Skunk works.


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## dtswebb (Dec 14, 2013)

I've always liked Toni's PC blanks.  I've made one or two from blanks obtained from Exotic Blanks and the pens have always been well received.

What I have note liked is the CA finish.  I'm not a fan of CA for finishing any pen.

These blanks would be the best of all possible worlds for me.  The beauty of Toni's blanks without the need to use CA for a finish.

I hope that these do become available; I for one would be buying them.

Thank you to all the participants to make this a reality.

Matthew


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## yaroslaw (Dec 14, 2013)

Really nice! Magic of IAP happening
Hope, someday I will be buying this blanks

PS is there any description of this "clear tube casting" anywhere? Playing with clear casting now and don't want to mess with molds for every type of a kit I make...


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## edstreet (Dec 15, 2013)

yaroslaw said:


> Really nice! Magic of IAP happening
> Hope, someday I will be buying this blanks
> 
> PS is there any description of this "clear tube casting" anywhere? Playing with clear casting now and don't want to mess with molds for every type of a kit I make...



See references to the 2 links I posted at the bottom of this reply   Also see Keith's link a few post back.




Band Saw Box said:


> Very cool, well done by all. Is the group looking to be as well known as Kelly Johnson's Skunk works.



Likely many may not be aware of what skunk works is/was or stood for.  I was looking for something with tangible and with good positive character when making the post and that was the first thing that came to mind.  Although this very technique has been done before it's not a common practice for some reason nor is it well known, which is a tragedy in and of itself.  The attempt was to show what is possible when you think outside the box and look into the radical thinking approach.  Most importantly not be restricted to one avenue or approach.  As they did on the original skunk works projects they went outside the box using known existing techniques, methods, practices.

Although to those who see the 'radical innovation' they will realize this:

*Definition:
Radical innovation is often defined as the commercialization of products and technologies that have strong impact on two dimensions:

    the market, in terms of offering wholly new customer benefits relative to the previous product generation in the category, and
    the company, in terms of its ability to create new businesses.*


I do indeed hope to uproot the industrial conventions and change expectations in a positive way by not only method but expanding their minds by possibilities and potential.





dtswebb said:


> I've always liked Toni's PC blanks.  I've made one or two from blanks obtained from Exotic Blanks and the pens have always been well received.
> 
> What I have note liked is the CA finish.  I'm not a fan of CA for finishing any pen.
> 
> ...



Well this is yet another good concern.  CA glue stinks and I personally use odorless CA for this and many more reasons.  I also am not to keen on CA finishes and would love to see something else being used but since we are limited on what is available and since it can yield good results there is something better.

On that note you can take slimline tubes, cast them and use them as euro tubes.  The euro is a very forging kit that uses the same tube diameter with one tube being shorter (which you could trim one tube in this case)  I did a posting on http://www.penturners.org/forum/f56...ersion-114232/?highlight=gent+tube+conversion detailing how it's possible to go off the beaten path and do something different.

The gent tube conversion that I did was a good candidate for casting.  So long story short: just because the tube sold is listed for pen kit 'A' does not mean you MUST use it on pen kit 'A', you can put it on any pen kit you wish.  If it does not fit then make it fit, after all we are suppose to be fabricators. 



BSea said:


> edstreet said:
> 
> 
> > Long story short the clay is basically PVC pipe.  May not be exactly as strong as a PVC pipe is but it's the same stuff.  Quite durable and all of that.
> ...



Well.  I did have to use a few lifelines but these references was pointed out to me today.

Yahoo Groups - Patricia Lawson - Polymer clay cast under clear resin

Pen Makers Guild - Patricia Lawson - Polymer clay cast under clear resin

These are dated Jan 2009 but honestly I do not know the current state or condition of this pen of her work.  I am going to try to contact her and see about that as that is a very good concern and question.  The info she posted is going on 4 years now and by the time you add in the field work it's likely 5-6 years dated now, but not outdated.


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## yaroslaw (Dec 15, 2013)

edstreet said:


> yaroslaw said:
> 
> 
> > Really nice! Magic of IAP happening
> ...



Ed, my question was not about casting PC (I'm still far away from it) but all other sort of things (feathers, abalone, snakeskin) using clear plastic tube without resin saver mold. Like on  Seamus cast here. But I should probably ask it in Cast forum


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## edstreet (Dec 16, 2013)

yaroslaw said:


> Ed, my question was not about casting PC (I'm still far away from it) but all other sort of things (feathers, abalone, snakeskin) using clear plastic tube without resin saver mold. Like on  Seamus cast here. But I should probably ask it in Cast forum



Sorry, I misunderstood.  There is several threads on the clear tube casting, look for vertical casting, clear tube and maybe if we poke Seamus hard enough he will respond


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