# IAP Forum Etiquette



## jeff (Nov 4, 2010)

I'm planning to develop a "*Guide to IAP Forum Etiquette*" and I need your help. I've thought for some time that we need a way to let new members know (and remind us old timers) what sort of conduct we expect on the forum. 

I'm not trying to create some vanilla utopia where we all lock arms and sing Kumbaya, but there are some things we can all keep in mind that make this a respectful and enjoyable place to be.

Please give me your thoughts on what should be included, and I'll develop a page of guidelines and post it with our other site guidelines.

I'll start with a couple: 

1 - Don't hound someone for a tutorial the instant they post a pen design you've never seen before. Let them enjoy some praise before you beg for step by step instructions on how to duplicate their work. They know you want to make one, and they'll tell you how when they get a chance.

2 - Talk to each other as if you were sitting down with a beer or a cup of coffee (or your conversation-inspiring beverage of choice!) Keep in mind that there are real people with real feelings behind that text on your screen and act accordingly. We can disagree on all kinds of thing, but let's debate, not argue.

I appreciate your thoughtful contributions to this thread.


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## maxwell_smart007 (Nov 4, 2010)

Great idea, Jeff.  I could post a huge list, but I'll limit it to the first two on my mind: 

Think twice before posting a retort - then think again.  Taking a second to think about the possible consequences of your posting may make all the difference...  

Treat others like you wish to be treated...


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## Smitty37 (Nov 4, 2010)

*Answer question*

When a question is asked...answer the question.  

If some one asks what time it is keep in mind that they don't want to know how to build a wrist watch or Big Ben.  And, don't tell them they are asking the wrong question....assume they know what they want to find out.


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## MesquiteMan (Nov 5, 2010)

Smitty37 said:


> When a question is asked...answer the question.
> 
> If some one asks what time it is keep in mind that they don't want to know how to build a wrist watch or Big Ben.  And, don't tell them they are asking the wrong question....assume they know what they want to find out.



And PLEASE don't tell them to just search the library or forum.  That is not very welcoming.  If you don't want to answer the question since it has been asked a million times, just don't reply, please.


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## Displaced Canadian (Nov 5, 2010)

If you aren't sure what somebody meant by their post send them a PM and ask for clarification. Don't write a heated response to something that you may be interpreting wrong.


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## phillywood (Nov 5, 2010)

Be aware that this is an international forum and many members come from different backgrounds and thought patterns, they may not all think American or may not be familiar with the American way of conversing. If a sentence or a statement is not clear like Christopher said ask in a Pm for clarification. Also, be aware that people have different writing style that may not be as clear as if you were to talk to them in person, so don't take everything personally.


Please do not ask questions and throw different topics other than what the main posts suggests and or asks. Ask your Qsn. in a PM.

Be respectful of female members here and use appropriate language. 

Be mindful of  ladies when addressing a group. this forum is not all for guys.
be respectful of other nationalities and do not go generalizing their nationality with the current  world issues and pin them with it. (like not all Muslims would be terrorists, for example).


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## alphageek (Nov 5, 2010)

As I pointed out in a recent thread:

Try and assume the best in what was written.   Don't assume that someone is trying to insult you.   It is very hard to put emotion into text.  Without inflection, facial expressions and other verbal queues it's easy to misinterpret things.

Don't pile one.  If there is a negative reply, just adding another won't make it any better.

Remember that you were new once too...  It can be hard to find the right answer to a question in search, even when you know what to look for.   If someone asks and you think the easy answer is a search, maybe show the answer.  You may know something they don't.

Play nice!   This group can do amazing things.   Both as artists and as people.   Strive to be that good guy or gal!

Remember,  things in writing will be here a long time. Thing twice before writing something in bad spirits.


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## bobleibo (Nov 5, 2010)

- Don't make it personal. If you don't agree with something, disagree with the concept or idea, not the person.


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## jskeen (Nov 5, 2010)

If you feel the need to point out a negative feature of somebody's work that they have not specifically asked for honest feedback on, consider sending a pm rather than posting a negative comment.  No matter how helpful you intend the information to be or how obvious the fault might seem, somebody, either the maker or another reader may assume that you are being obnoxious, condescending, or otherwise unpleasant.


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## nava1uni (Nov 5, 2010)

I think that first and foremost manners would be helpful.  I am not talking about being nicey nicey, but just the use of the words please and thank you.
Don't post when upset in response to something you read.
Respect differences in ethnicity, race, gender, lifestyles and religion.  Just know that we are all more similar then dissimilar.


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## jeff (Nov 5, 2010)

All great thoughts! Keep 'em coming.


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## Seer (Nov 5, 2010)

If a person asks a question and you feel you could be helpful but the replys to a post may get lost, PM them and at least they have an instant record to lookup that is not amongst other posts I do this more than post.


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## TurnaPen (Nov 5, 2010)

And if you know the answer is already in the Library, simply post them a link and say, "this link may be helpful"; Amos


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## DocStram (Nov 5, 2010)

If your post begins with  . . . . "This isn't really political . . " then it probably is political and falls outside the bounds of our terms of service.  

Jokes with ethnic or racial innuendos . . .   are slurs even though _you_ make think it is funny. (ie: "them meslims")    The same holds true for using demeaning terms that cast a specific group in a negative light.  For example,  "that's retarded" or  "he must ride the short bus".  Some of us may actually have family members who are intellectually disabled or may be disabled our self. 

Attacking a member in private, via emails or pm's, is out of the boundaries of appropriate behavior.  

_PS Please refrain from sending an inflammatory pm to me in response to this post . . .  I've already received more than my share. _


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## Gary Max (Nov 5, 2010)

If you tell someone to "Kiss your A$$" that's still cussing


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## GoodTurns (Nov 5, 2010)

If you wouldn't say it in front of your mother or grandmother, you probably need to take a second to think about how you can re-phrase (or hold your tongue!).  yes, we have all heard those words before, doesn't mean we need to hear/see them again!

be welcoming.  we all benefit from every new member.  you never know where the spark of creativity will come from, and it may well be "the new guy" who looks at things a little differently.

don't harp.  when it's over, let it go and move on.  when a moderator says "getting close" or "enough", LISTEN.  they are doing a largely thankless job for completely absent compensation, a little respect is in order.  (I think they do get their dues waived during their time as moderators!:wink


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## nativewooder (Nov 5, 2010)

*Etiquette*

Would you consider, at some point in the future, requiring all users or beginning with newbies, to use their actual name?  I know some people have used a moniker for years and may be offended that they might have to use their real name.  Just a thought, as it is happening on some of the woodturning forums.


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## PenMan1 (Nov 5, 2010)

My wife says that my posts on the IAP should be more representative of the language that I use in church, and less representative of the language that I use in the shop.

I reminded her that I spend one day per week in church and six days per week in the shop! 

I am really trying hard, but I'm sure I'll slip sometimes.

Respectfully committed.


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## lazylathe (Nov 5, 2010)

Keep posts to the point.
If someone asks for criticism, be honest but fair, don't take a stab at them because you do not find their design to your liking.
A few people post quite harsh remarks that really are not worth the time it took to type them.
If you have something to say, say it in a nice way and try and keep it positive.

If the poster asks for comments don't just post that you don't like the design.
Be fair and honest and say what you would thinwould maybe look good.

Each pen turner has their own unique ideas and we all bring so much variety to the table.
Nit picking is not required...

As an aside, a few people have left other sites for these reasons and i am also starting to drift away and become more homely here because it has improved a lot and is a great place to be!

Just my 2 cents!

Keep up the great work IAP!!!

Andrew


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## devowoodworking (Nov 5, 2010)

Being respectful of longstanding members, seems like the most important thing to remind 'newbies'...this was their home long before we came along! :wink:


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## Jim Smith (Nov 5, 2010)

One of the issues that concerns me the most is when some people seem to think that it's okay to be rude, disrespectful or even aggressive via PM or email. There have been a number of occasions where we have lost some terrific members because they feel that they've been attacked via PM or email and they just don't want the hassels so they drop out or at least stop posting. 

I think it should be understood that if someone crosses the line in any PM or email, that the PM or email will be forwarded to the moderator who will handle it at his/her discression. This can be anything from a simple warning to baning the person from access to the site. We've lost the input on some of the most talented and creative people on this site because of people flaming them via PM.

Jim Smith


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## bitshird (Nov 5, 2010)

Pretty much everything that has been written applies, do remember we all have individual personalities, so don't expect everyone to act, write, or think as you do, allow them there differences.


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## mredburn (Nov 5, 2010)

Although its been covered in other ways but not specifically expressed. It should be pointed out that there are minors that are members here.


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## alphageek (Nov 5, 2010)

Gary Max said:


> If you tell someone to "Kiss your A$$" that's still cussing



Agreed... as a matter of fact as a moderator all "short" profanitys, cutting characters out or acronyms are almost as bad as actual swearing... remember that you only need to be 13 to join IAP!


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## jttheclockman (Nov 5, 2010)

Wow this is all well and good but what does it all do???  If we have to write these things down then where did we go wrong. Who is going to take the time to read them??  Maybe good for a month or two then we need that reminder again and again. and again.

Hey I am not saying this is not a good idea and in fact alot of sites have things like this as you sign in. What I think is happening and this is only an opinion that the internet world is changing. Our mentality is changing in that because we can't see each other how can they hurt us. I bet things would be a whole lot different if everyone used a web cam. We say things we ordinarily do not because we know we can get away with it. We live in a fast pace world. we probably speak faster than we ever did without thinking. We do this so we can move on to the next topic. People are getting more and more confortable using these electronic devices. I saw alot of things that are similar when Citizen Band Radios first came out. There are some parrallels there. The more confortable people got with them the more vulgar the attitudes got.  

I guess what I am saying hopefully things will change and it actually is up to each and every individual and no list is going to change us. Hopefully it will remind us as to what is expected of us as we visit a forum. I do believe this site is not as bad as some may think. I have seen worse. Yes it may need that kick in the butt once in awhile but it still is friendly. The more members the more personalities you have and sometimes things get tested. 

This is just an observation and Jeff you do a great job here with keeping this one of the most sought out sites around. Expanding every day and though we lose some members and hopefully they find their way back, we still add more talent to help us grow and with growing comes growing pains. Keep up the good work and look forward to reading the list.


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## ed4copies (Nov 5, 2010)

"Jim Smith" brings up an interesting point, Jeff.

TOS say we may not forward emails to mods (as I READ the TOS---I could be wrong here).  

But, I have heard from many very respected members that they receive nasty PM and email because someone thinks they should "share" more.

The emails and PM's were generated because of threads here---they ought to be subject to SOME rules too.
NO good answer, just an observation.


The other sore point is the definition of "share".

When you want ME to tell YOU everything I know, and you have nothing to contribute, we are NOT SHARING!!! I am TEACHING---for which people are paid---it's called EDUCATION.

So, if you have something to contribute, we can SHARE.  This is regularly the case in the casting forum, where pressure rates and other new practices are discussed among those who have done a lot of casting and everyone can benefit.

But, when you want to know the specific way Curtis cleans his cactus---that is EDUCATION and should be completely VOLUNTARY for Curtis to tell you (educate) or NOT tell you (HIS RIGHT to his knowledge).


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## alphageek (Nov 5, 2010)

I agree that Jim Smith raises an interesting point... I think that is a point worth come clarification in moderation rules/recommendations.   I'll open a thread with the Mod team to discuss, and hopefully we get some input from Jeff too in that.


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## Smitty37 (Nov 5, 2010)

*Don't Apologize*

Don't aplogize before your post.  If you must start a post with "I'm sorry to have to say this, but"... you probably don't have to say it.


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## snyiper (Nov 5, 2010)

Aside from the things like simple mannors, respect and good old common courtesy we can disagree on points in a adult fashion. I think because we have become a faceless society we have become more agressive. I truely think if people were face to face tones as well as comments would change, we need to try and keep this in prespective as we type. If you would not say it to your parents or to the person face to face perhaps consider not saying it at all.


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## maxwell_smart007 (Nov 5, 2010)

Excellent stuff thus far.  

One more point: Try your best to keep your attitude positive.  No one likes to hang around a group that is constantly lamenting about how things have changed or how bad things are now - if we want change, we can begin to bring it through our own actions.  

(That is the very reason that I stopped hanging around the staffroom at work - bad attitudes lead to poor environments and can be poisonous to the rest of the staff!)


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## LEAP (Nov 5, 2010)

If you ask for a critique dont be offended if someone gives you an honest opinion. We all have personal likes and dislikes and they do not match anyone elses. If all you are looking for is "nice pen good job" don't ask for a critique.


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## KenBrasier (Nov 5, 2010)

It is only natural that we see some adversity even in a forum as wonderful and well managed as the IAP.  I'm reading some great comments here, they appear to reflect what we learned in Kindergarten  or Sunday School "Play Nice, Don"t Hit and Share".  

The only suggestion that I would add is one that has always worked well for me.  If you feel that you need to make an adverse or negative comment, WAIT 12 to 24 hours and see if you still feel it needs to be said.  It has saved me many of times.


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## jimm1 (Nov 5, 2010)

Be thankful, not regretful. Have character. Don't question integrity. Remember above all...respect. I'll guess the majority of people on this forum want to learn. The minority here has the ability to share and teach. Learning is a priviledge. Honor that. 
Be construtive, not destructive. If you feel you've been slighted, bite your tongue and move on.
Bottom line:  If you don't have nothing productive to say, don't say it.


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## Texatdurango (Nov 5, 2010)

Adding a thought to what Ed said, I think that so many problems stem from the use of PM's that they should have their own "rules of useage"!

It may come as a shock to some but there are many "invisible groups" within the IAP membership where members use PM's to discuss thoughts, hold private "group buys" and the like and believe it or not.... even use their numbers to privately blitz someone via PM's once they have a disagreement with another member.

An example (I'll use John Doe and me as hypothetical members)....... John Doe PM's me asking how to thread some parts on a kitless pen. I suggest he visit a very in-depth thread that another member has going on, which has a lot of time spent explaining the use of taps and that he should get all of his questions answered. 

Well, John Doe didn't appreciate the way I was trying to help him so he replied spelling out EXACTLY what he wanted me to give him SPECIFIC answers to and his second PM didn't have that friendly tone anymore.

I simply replied saying I was pretty busy and didn't have the time to spend on a detailed laundry list and suggested he start his own thread asking the same questions.  That reply got me a very nasty reply saying that I didn't give a crap about helping anyone, and went on with some other choice words and accusations.  I also heard from a few of his "friends" as they also felt compelled to echo his feelings and one even suggested the forum would be a better place without the likes of me if I couldn't answer "a simple question".

That said....... we can come up with a thousand guidelines for etiquette but untill we realize there are some who feel the rules don't apply to them or their will be no real consequences to ignoring the guidelines, we haven't gained an inch.  

Just a thought!


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## JimB (Nov 5, 2010)

I would like to see something about not flaming vendors, big or small. I've seen a number of posts where the person has not even contacted the vendor to try to resolve an issue but feel it is OK to get on here and complain about them. It wouldn't hurt to point out that a lot of these vendors support the IAP and we are hurting our relationship with them.


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## beck3906 (Nov 5, 2010)

Don't talk with your mouth full.............of crap.


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## ed4copies (Nov 5, 2010)

Jim,

As a vendor, I believe we are made better by seeing the "complaints" of our customers.  Should you try to contact the vendor first???  Of course!!!

But, as you know I am pretty active on IAP, so it's a great place to communicate with me.  And, if you want to complain, I SHOULD have a reasonable explanation  OR I should be prepared to CHANGE the practice that the customer is unhappy with (terrible grammar).

And, it is only fair that a community know that some vendors will ship immediately---others will take a week to process the order.  This is merely stating a fact that each of the IAP members SHOULD know.  

So, be careful how much you limit members' ability to complain.  Smart vendors (which I HOPE we are) LEARN from their customers' complaints.  We have realized we have an email problem, primarily through communications we have received here.

Maybe each vendor can have their own policy regarding this????  I'd hate to lose the feedback we have gotten in the few threads criticizing our actions.


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## OOPS (Nov 5, 2010)

*from a newbie's perspective*

It has been just about a year since I first came to this site, a total newbie to pen turning.  I didn't join right away, but read everything voraciously attempting to learn about my new hobby.  The first thing that impressed me about this group was the collegial atmosphere between members.  Even though their addresses showed they were thousands of miles apart, they sounded as if they were best friends!

A year later, it seems that a fair amount of that is gone now.  Unfortunately what has taken root is quite a bit of snide or sarcastic responses that just serve no purpose.  One specific thread should illustrate my point.

For example, if someone posted 

 "Does it matter which way I put the center band on my Slimline when I put it together?"

I imagine this would generate some chuckles from members as you read the post, but a few people would respond and politely give the answer to this question.

Recently, though, a member posted a thread with a question about customer service issues, since he had never been in a retail business before and wanted to know how to handle a certain problem.  For those of us who have experience in sales, or customer service, the question was equally as basic as the Slimline question above.  However, it generated a significant amount of discussion, as it turned out that MANY members had similar questions, or suggestions as to potential solutions.  I have had such retail experience, but nonetheless was enjoying the answers from the members.  Suddenly, I ran into the following reply.

"You really had to ask this?"

The rudeness of this response has stayed with me until now.  Yes, it was a basic, easy question, but a lot of questions on this site are easy to some of us, and not to others.  A sarcastic remark only serves to dampen the spirits of the group.  

I suppose we can wonder why someone would take the time to write a post that serves no useful purpose, but such is life.  Personally, I think the moderators of the site should take a more active role, if only temporarily, to remove these unhelpful posts, and explain why to the offending party (in a PM.)

Also, others who have left the site should be asked to return.  Since I am still struggling to assemble kit pens, I have nothing to offer on the craft side of the hobby.  Therefore, I was totally unaware that members were being chastised for not being thorough enough in giving away their tips and techniques.  Those hurtful PMs should be forwarded to moderators and dealt with quickly.  If someone wants to demonstrate a technique, or create a tutorial, fine, but we have no "right" to it.

Finally, I agree with prior posters here.  If someone asks a question, please don't just say "Its in the library."  Some of you are obviously more adept at navigating the library than others, and I too have had problems finding what I was looking for there.  So if you know that its in the library, please put the link in your response, for those of us who can't find it.  

All in all, this is still a great site.  While I am not a big fan of excessive moderator interference, there is a time where an expanded presence is necessary to keep things orderly.  As other posters suggested, would we remember or even read a long list of do's or don'ts before posting?  Probably not.  Once you hear from a moderator though, you would quickly commit that lesson to memory.


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## Padre (Nov 5, 2010)

MesquiteMan said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > When a question is asked...answer the question.
> ...



Absolutely spot-on.


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## jeff (Nov 5, 2010)

The TOS says, "...nor may you post the contents of email exchanges without the consent of all parties involved." The important word is POST. You may always feel free to FORWARD objectionable PMs to me or a moderator. 

PMs are subject to exactly the same content rules as everything else at the site. 



ed4copies said:


> "Jim Smith" brings up an interesting point, Jeff.
> 
> TOS say we may not forward emails to mods (as I READ the TOS---I could be wrong here).
> 
> ...


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## Padre (Nov 5, 2010)

Don't use PM or Email for attacks, mud-slinging or negativity.  A good way to gauge this is if you would be embarrassed by having your PM posted publicly, don't send it at all.


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## soligen (Nov 5, 2010)

jeff said:


> 1 - Don't hound someone for a tutorial the instant they post a pen design you've never seen before. Let them enjoy some praise before you beg for step by step instructions on how to duplicate their work. They know you want to make one, and they'll tell you how when they get a chance.


 
Along these lines, I think it needs to be made clear which are "learning/sharing" forums and which are "show-off" forums.  I see things posted to the castin or advanced forums and it is obvious the posted has no intention of sharing his/her process.  Just showing off.  I have no problem with a person not wanting to share "trade secrets", but if you post to a learning forum, you should be prepared to comment on the process you use - otherwise use SYOP or such.

Also, if you dont want a design copied, dont post it.  I think the TOS should say that if you post a pen design, then others are allowed to copy it.


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## ed4copies (Nov 5, 2010)

Chip,

I have often wondered about removing the PM and email functions and demanding that all comments be public.

I am fortunate, in five years of membership (I think), I have received a small handful of negative emails.  But, some other, more innovative members say they get a dozen or more chastizing them.  

When coming to the IAP ceases being fun, people leave.

When you get enough PM's from members who complain, you just don't want to come to the forum for more abuse.  (I have experienced this, on one occasion, so I do understand the complaint)

Eliminating email (or perhaps allowing ONE member to make public email between two members) could tone down the "nastiness"???


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## JimB (Nov 5, 2010)

ed4copies said:


> Jim,
> 
> As a vendor, I believe we are made better by seeing the "complaints" of our customers. Should you try to contact the vendor first??? Of course!!!
> 
> ...


 
 I agree 100%. I didn't mean to imply that we shouldn't discuss vendors on here only that we should be responsible with what we say and that we are careful not to destroy a vendor's reputation before we have given them a chance to resolve any issues. 

I think we are really saying the same thing.


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## Chasper (Nov 5, 2010)

I agree with most, but not all, of the points that have been made in this thread.  And not pointing out everything I disagree with is my contribution to this thread and in my opinion it is a good rule to follow.

It isn't necessary to point out everything that you disagree with, just as it isn't necessary to compliment photo post that appears in SOYP.  There are many times when the polite thing to do is to not say or do anything.


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## phillywood (Nov 5, 2010)

mredburn said:


> Although its been covered in other ways but not specifically expressed. It should be pointed out that there are minors that are members here.


 
Also, like to see that how much are our responsibilties when it comes to minors and giving them advise for messing around chemicals and heavy machineries when we don't even know if they have their parent or guardian'c consent to be online and getting this kind of advises. After all some of the chemicals or tools we use can hrm them if they are not handled correctly. this happened during the summer and concerned me with soem of the chemicals that were discussed during the posts. Or playing with pressure pots that can be dangerous if modified as we do for our specific use. And, if something happens to these youngsters then who is going to give an answer.


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## DocStram (Nov 5, 2010)

If I was still an active member, I might be in favor of eliminating the pm and email functions. 

I find it  interesting that one of the people complaining about  receiving nasty pms is one  of the same people who wrote a particularly  distasteful pm to me.   

Maybe we all need to do a little introspection.


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## Phunky_2003 (Nov 5, 2010)

JimB said:


> ed4copies said:
> 
> 
> > Jim,
> ...


 
I am reading what you two are getting at and agree.  Constructive critism and discussions about vendors help all parties involved and parties that may get involved later.  Especially where those vendors are active members and get involved with the discussions.  I would have never ordered from Exotics without some of the feedback from this site.  I've just always prefered going with places I knew.

However, I dont think it is appropriate to come to the forum and complain about anyones polices.  It is their policy and they have it for a reason whether you agree with it or not.  I've seen many vendors get trashed for their shipping policy.  It is stated on their site somewhere what their policy is, dont come here and bash it after you order from them.  If you dont agree with it, then nobody is making you order from them.


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## alphageek (Nov 5, 2010)

Texatdurango said:


> Adding a thought to what Ed said, I think that so many problems stem from the use of PM's that they should have their own "rules of useage"!
> 
> It may come as a shock to some but there are many "invisible groups" within the IAP membership where members use PM's to discuss thoughts, hold private "group buys" and the like and believe it or not.... even use their numbers to privately blitz someone via PM's once they have a disagreement with another member.
> 
> ...



George as a moderator, I am a bit abhorred by this.  Some of what you said is perfectly acceptable (if a group of friends want to do a private group buy... nothing bad there).

However most of the rest of that is downright bad and some of it is completely against policies.   A "blitz" by PM is completely unacceptable and I ask ANYONE that has this happen to them report it.   

The rules DO apply... if there is broken rules, Please report them!


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## Phunky_2003 (Nov 5, 2010)

Do they have super secret handshakes and all that too?  I wanna join...... I never been a part of a group with a super secret handshake..... lol.


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## Padre (Nov 5, 2010)

ed4copies said:


> Chip,
> 
> I have often wondered about removing the PM and email functions and demanding that all comments be public.
> 
> ...



I think there is a place for PM and email, but not when used to bully someone, do a 'pile-on' as George mentioned, and just to be really hurtful.  I have never received a negative PM.  If I had, maybe I would feel differently.

But, I have used PM to personally thank and/or compliment someone, to tell others that I am praying for them (I am a priest after all), or to just ask a question or two on a specific topic.  If I don't hear back, so be it.  If I do, it's a bonus!

Since I use the PM/Email function for what I shall term as "good" uses, I think it does serve a purpose.

But again I say, one of the 'filters' people should use in the PM/Email function is that if you would be embarrassed by the post being made public, don't send it.


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## OKLAHOMAN (Nov 5, 2010)

George, been there , bought the tee shirt. Not that I'm in the same class as some here as to knowledge but I can't tell you how many times I've been told I'm not sharing in the respect of sharing what shows I do. I always answer that it's taken me a lot of work and time convincing jurist that what I (we) do is art and as it is a business for me and I don't share what shows I'm applying to. Almost every time the response is to the effect "the IAP is for sharing and if you don't want to share what are you doing here". I received these as both emails and PM's.  Glad to know that we can forward these to the mods.


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## MesquiteMan (Nov 5, 2010)

You sure as heck don't want to be a moderator if you don't like getting nastygrams!  I have had enough for every member on this forum over the years!


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## ed4copies (Nov 5, 2010)

Glad to know that we can forward these to the mods. 		 		  		  		 		  		 		 			 				__________________

Can we? or is this against the TOS?

When you have been told a group of members is circulating an email disparaging your activities on the IAP, what recourse is there?


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## jttheclockman (Nov 5, 2010)

PM's and emailings are a necessary part of any forum and you all should know that. Privacy is an important part of the internet quorum. It must be respected but also used as intended. I have gotten my share of disgruntled pm's and emails and I am sure I will again. ( I almost started telling a troubling story that happened to me but will refrain). 

I have had ongoing pm's with members who have helped me and those who I have helped them. Not everything needs to be seen in print by everyone. Alot would be very boring to others. No need to waste bandwidth like that. 

My point is leave PM's alone. They do not need fixing. Be careful what you ask for.


----------



## Smitty37 (Nov 5, 2010)

*I agree...to a point*



JimB said:


> I would like to see something about not flaming vendors, big or small. I've seen a number of posts where the person has not even contacted the vendor to try to resolve an issue but feel it is OK to get on here and complain about them. It wouldn't hurt to point out that a lot of these vendors support the IAP and we are hurting our relationship with them.


 
I agree...to a point.  Vendors are big boys and should be able to take care of themselves, but no one should complain about a vendor they have never done business with.  I have seen that happen.


----------



## MesquiteMan (Nov 5, 2010)

ed4copies said:


> Glad to know that we can forward these to the  mods.                                                                                                 __________________
> 
> Can we? or is this against the TOS?
> 
> When you have been told a group of members is circulating an email  disparaging your activities on the IAP, what recourse is there?






jeff said:


> The TOS says, "...nor may you post the contents of email exchanges without the consent of all parties involved." The important word is POST. You may always feel free to FORWARD objectionable PMs to me or a moderator.
> 
> PMs are subject to exactly the same content rules as everything else at the site.



Ed, did you miss this from the big guy?  He has spoken.  It is perfectly acceptable to forward PMs to Jeff, Myself, Dean, or Andrew.


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## Padre (Nov 5, 2010)

Smitty37 said:


> JimB said:
> 
> 
> > I would like to see something about not flaming vendors, big or small. I've seen a number of posts where the person has not even contacted the vendor to try to resolve an issue but feel it is OK to get on here and complain about them. It wouldn't hurt to point out that a lot of these vendors support the IAP and we are hurting our relationship with them.
> ...



One thing that rankles my heinie is when I see someone flame a vendor BEFORE they have given the vendor a fair shot at remedying the situation. And if you have a situation that you feel you are getting a raw deal, post the WHOLE conversation, not just your side of it.  Sometimes our anger blinds us to what the other party is really saying.


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## ed4copies (Nov 5, 2010)

_Ed, did you miss this from the big guy?  He has spoken.  It is perfectly  acceptable to forward PMs to Jeff, Myself, Dean, or Andrew._

YEP, I missed it!!!
Thanks!!!!


----------



## JimB (Nov 5, 2010)

Padre said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > JimB said:
> ...


 
I made a second post above to help clarify my view which is right in line with what you are saying.


----------



## jeff (Nov 5, 2010)

Sending a nasty or harassing PM that would not be allowed in the open forums is not acceptable. Anyone who receives such a PM is welcome to forward it to me or Curtis. Anyone who contemplates SENDing such a PM should really think twice. There is nothing wrong with having a debate in private as long as both parties are willing participants, but please don't annoy, harass, or vent in a PM. 



alphageek said:


> Texatdurango said:
> 
> 
> > Adding a thought to what Ed said, I think that so many problems stem from the use of PM's that they should have their own "rules of useage"!
> ...


----------



## edman2 (Nov 5, 2010)

Thanks Jeff for this effort. Can you say "big editing job?":biggrin:  It is needed and should be helpful.  Generally, I don't read posts that get onto a negative track. Got better things to do.  However, guidelines give moderators boundaries they can enforce and that will be helpful.  Thanks for your continuing efforts to insure this is the best forum on the net.


----------



## wolftat (Nov 5, 2010)

If you wouldn't say something to someones face, with your beloved grandmother listening in, don't type it and post it on the forum.


----------



## keithkarl2007 (Nov 5, 2010)

While this thread was meant to make the forum a better place to be, some of the posts made are actually snide remarks aimed at particular members if they are viewing the thread. They stand out like a sore thumb. If you are only using this thread to secretly attack a member don't bother to post a comment at all.


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## Scott (Nov 5, 2010)

Hi Jeff!

How do you cause a group of free-thinking individuals to respect each other?  I don't know.  It doesn't seem to be a concept promoted much in our country anymore.  But I would suggest that civility needs to be more highly valued here at the IAP than individual right to free speech.

All we want is for everyone to respect each other, and to act in a responsible and civil manner when addressing each other.  That really is not asking too much.  And if you cannot manage to act in this civil manner you should lose the right to participate here.

Maybe the best adage when contemplating posting something to another member here at the IAP is a quote from the old Disney movie Bambi, by Thumper:  If you can't say something nice, don't say nuthin' at all.

Scott.


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## Fred (Nov 5, 2010)

I suggest that whenever anyone posts a reply with a suggestion to "use this" or "check with ... for that tool, part, etc." that IF possible at the time of the reply to at least post a link to that relevant part of your reply. 

Don't make your reply a test of people's ability to know how to find it for themselves. Just simply take an extra moment and post a link along with your reply if at all possible.


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## hilltopper46 (Nov 5, 2010)

Texatdurango said:


> It may come as a shock to some but there are many "invisible groups" within the IAP membership where members use PM's to discuss thoughts, hold private "group buys" and the like



On this topic, your list of rules or strong suggestions should include the fact that it is really quite rude to refer to these invisible groups when posting on IAP. If you have the time and social skills to participate in these groups, fine, so be it. But, please don't make posts referring to them in either an direct or oblique manner.  If you want to share what ever the topic is with IAP, share it from the git-go.


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## Rfturner (Nov 5, 2010)

I have to say that over the last year or so things have gotten nastier. There used to be a much more open atmosphere. That being said here are some general rules I go by...

1. Always think before you send something whether on a forum, pm, or email.
2. coming up with a design is VERY time consuming there is often great trial and error. If you wish to make a similar thing try it for your self and go from there. often if you go to the person that made the item and tell them Here is what I have tried can you point me in the right direction. It goes farther than you know.
3. Respect your elders, this refers to physical age as well as those that have more time invested. They have wisdom that they can share but just play nice. 
4. Never be afraid to ask a question


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## MesquiteMan (Nov 5, 2010)

Along the copying lines...

If someone has come up with a new idea and actively sells the item, don't take their idea and start selling it here.  It is one thing to make something for yourself but once you start selling someone else's ideas, it just shows you have no respect for them or their ideas at all and you are just interested in the money.


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## keithkarl2007 (Nov 5, 2010)

MesquiteMan said:


> Along the copying lines...
> 
> If someone has come up with a new idea and actively sells the item, don't take their idea and start selling it here.  It is one thing to make something for yourself but once you start selling someone else's ideas, it just shows you have no respect for them or their ideas at all and you are just interested in the money.



I strongly feel these people should be kicked from the forum. They don't make pens themselves and the only input they have is someone elses.


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## Jgrden (Nov 5, 2010)

PenMan1 said:


> My wife says that my posts on the IAP should be more representative of the language that I use in church, and less representative of the language that I use in the shop.
> 
> I reminded her that I spend one day per week in church and six days per week in the shop!
> 
> ...


:highfive:


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## Smitty37 (Nov 5, 2010)

*No PMs*

Since we are now told that PMs and emails are not private, I would add that members should be able to opt out of receiving and/or sending Private Messages and emails sent from this site..


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## keithkarl2007 (Nov 5, 2010)

Smitty37 said:


> Since we are now told that PMs and emails are not private, I would add that members should be able to opt out of receiving and/or sending Private Messages and emails sent from this site..



Huh? Does this mean that the moderators can see what PM's and emails we receive?


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## Jmhoff10500 (Nov 5, 2010)

_Private_ Message? I don't like the fact that anything such as my address or money info could be seen by anybody other than the recipient...

So only the recipient and the moderators at the most will be able to see any of this right? And only if it is forwarded?


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## keithkarl2007 (Nov 5, 2010)

Jmhoff10500 said:


> _Private_ Message? I don't like the fact that anything such as my address or money info could be seen by anybody other than the recipient...



How do we know they can't already view it? Someone says they receive these rude messages and don't say what they are or who they are from. Surely the powers that be would have a way of seeing who is causing the trouble and give them the boot. Honestly, I don't know the moderators very well but for all the work they put into the forum, I would put my trust in them. As for your address and money info, if it was an issue just send your email in the PM and send your payment details through your personal email.


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## MesquiteMan (Nov 5, 2010)

*NO ONE CAN SEE YOUR PMs unless you or the person you sent the PM to forwards it to someone.*  Even Jeff, who has all power on this forum, can not read your PMs.  It is jut not possible with the safeguards built into the system.

The issue being discussed is that if you receive or send a nasty PM to someone, that PM can be forwarded to Jeff or myself according to the rules.  Have no fear!


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## Jmhoff10500 (Nov 5, 2010)

Ok, Thank you for the clarification!



MesquiteMan said:


> *NO ONE CAN SEE YOUR PMs unless you or the person you sent the PM to forwards it to someone.*  Even Jeff, who has all power on this forum, can not read your PMs.  It is jut not possible with the safeguards built into the system.
> 
> The issue being discussed is that if you receive or send a nasty PM to someone, that PM can be forwarded to Jeff or myself according to the rules.  Have no fear!


----------



## keithkarl2007 (Nov 5, 2010)

Bummer, if you could you'd soon find who causes all the riff raff around here.


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## MesquiteMan (Nov 5, 2010)

Smitty37 said:


> Since we are now told that PMs and emails are not private, I would add that members should be able to opt out of receiving and/or sending Private Messages and emails sent from this site..



PMs and e-mails are private, Smitty.  The rules do, however. allow someone who has received a nastygram to forward them on to Jeff or myself.  As I just stated, NO ONE can read your PMs or e-mail unless it is forwarded.

Also, you can already opt out of PMs or e-mails.  This is an option in your user profile.  You might want to take a look at the options.  There might be other things you will find useful there.

To opt out of PMs...go to your user profile.  Under settings and options, click on the Edit Options on the left side.  Then go to the box titled Messaging and Notifications.  There is a check box there called "enable private messaging".  Uncheck that and you will not be bothered with using the PM system.  There are also options in your profile to disable receiving e-mails.


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## ed4copies (Nov 5, 2010)

Smitty37 said:


> Since we are now told that PMs and emails are not private, I would add that members should be able to opt out of receiving and/or sending Private Messages and emails sent from this site..




You can-
See "User CP"
Options
Messaging and Notification

and remove the checkmarks you want to eliminate.


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## MesquiteMan (Nov 5, 2010)

Nananananana, I beat you to it, Ed!


----------



## bruce119 (Nov 5, 2010)

keithkarl2007 said:


> MesquiteMan said:
> 
> 
> > Along the copying lines...
> ...


 
That is a bit of a strong statement. Heck most of the stuff offered here known media. Now yes some one that joins just to sell, I think there my be a few that are major sellers, and do not contribute to the forum. Such as helping others sharing techniques and such then they probably should be dealt with. But the classifieds here are important where else can someone get some of the things offered here that truly one of a kind art for artist.

Now onto the comment I was going to make about posting. It should be kept to the original question by the original poster all too often I see hijacking and the thread going astray or "I don't want to hijack this thread" Well then just start a new thread to ask your question. That is my input to the original question no hijacking keep it on topic with the original post.
.


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## ed4copies (Nov 5, 2010)

MesquiteMan said:


> Nananananana, I beat you to it, Ed!





   Congratulations!!!!!:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

Don't erase my post though, don't want to slip back to 12811---that was so........................ seconds ago!!!


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## Jmhoff10500 (Nov 5, 2010)

I also think if we were to instate a banning of those who take ideas, it would cause alot more problems because 80% of the recent disputes over this have just faded away cause noone knows exactly who originally came up with the idea, and almost everyone thinks they did...


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## MesquiteMan (Nov 5, 2010)

No one is going to get banned for taking ideas.  We are NOT going to go there.


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## keithkarl2007 (Nov 5, 2010)

MesquiteMan said:


> No one is going to get banned for taking ideas.  We are NOT going to go there.



So if I were a guest who doesn't turn pens and seen someone selling some cool blanks and decided, heck, I could make them and charge a buck less, I could go ahead copy their idea and then proceed to sell it in the classifieds along side theirs. Brilliant!!!! Gonna get me all the casting stuff i need.


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## Jmhoff10500 (Nov 5, 2010)

I think it is just a difficult situation, especially for a friendly forum and friendly moderators... I have heard the stress this causes people and i know it would suck...




keithkarl2007 said:


> MesquiteMan said:
> 
> 
> > No one is going to get banned for taking ideas.  We are NOT going to go there.
> ...


----------



## MesquiteMan (Nov 5, 2010)

keithkarl2007 said:


> MesquiteMan said:
> 
> 
> > No one is going to get banned for taking ideas.  We are NOT going to go there.
> ...



Unfortunately, yes.  We certainly don't condone this but it is not up to IAP to try to enforce a certain set of personal ethics.  And of course, the scenario you describe above is why many have stopped sharing or showing new ideas, unfortunately.  The practice stinks, IMO, but we really don't want to go there by policy.


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## keithkarl2007 (Nov 5, 2010)

But these people are just out to make a quick buck. Sure its another source of penturning material at possibly a cheaper cost, but wouldn't you rather purchase from a member who contributes to the forum regularly in different threads and not someone who just sits in the classifieds making a profit on someone elses hard work.


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## MesquiteMan (Nov 5, 2010)

keithkarl2007 said:


> But these people are just out to make a quick buck. Sure its another source of penturning material at possibly a cheaper cost, but wouldn't you rather purchase from a member who contributes to the forum regularly in different threads and not someone who just sits in the classifieds making a profit on someone elses hard work.



Absolutely!


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## Jmhoff10500 (Nov 5, 2010)

Then i guess its up to the buyers to buy from those more integrated into IAP, then again, those newer ones might have good ideas and have a blank that might fit you more... From here its all just opinions and preferences...



keithkarl2007 said:


> But these people are just out to make a quick buck. Sure its another source of penturning material at possibly a cheaper cost, but wouldn't you rather purchase from a member who contributes to the forum regularly in different threads and not someone who just sits in the classifieds making a profit on someone elses hard work.


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## Timbo (Nov 5, 2010)

I prefer to keep discussions of religion and politics out of this forum...I don't come here for that.  More importantly...don't send me unsolicited communications in any form on these subjects, or any other subject not related to pen making or woodworking in general (yes this did happen to me more than once).


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## keithkarl2007 (Nov 5, 2010)

MesquiteMan said:


> keithkarl2007 said:
> 
> 
> > MesquiteMan said:
> ...



Well as soon as someones idea is copied and posted in the classifieds by someone else, could their post not be removed? I give up, its just wrong no matter how you look at it. I could never take someones idea and sell it as my own. I seen one of Jeffs blanks on Exotic's and Toni's and thought to myself if i purchase them I can say they are crafted from well known talented people who deserve the credit for their hard work. I'd never claim it as my own and I'd be honoured to mention them if the occasion arose.


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## keithkarl2007 (Nov 5, 2010)

Jmhoff10500 said:


> Then i guess its up to the buyers to buy from those more integrated into IAP, then again, those newer ones might have good ideas and have a blank that might fit you more... From here its all just opinions and preferences...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Everyone to their own i guess. I would sooner give my money to someone who has taken the time to show me the ropes, pass on whatever knowledge they learned along the way and have the same respect for me as I have for them. I share my ideas freely on the forum. I posted the thread that started all the pendant fiasco and look how far that went. I just wonder if anyone has claimed "Oh i came up with that".


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## bruce119 (Nov 5, 2010)

keithkarl2007 said:


> But these people are just out to make a quick buck. Sure its another source of penturning material at possibly a cheaper cost, but wouldn't you rather purchase from a member who contributes to the forum regularly in different threads and not someone who just sits in the classifieds making a profit on someone elses hard work.


 
You must have a problem with some body I guess I am missing something.

.


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## DurocShark (Nov 6, 2010)

Yikes! 10 pages!

Jeff, I don't envy you the work you have ahead of you... 

:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:


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## alphageek (Nov 6, 2010)

keithkarl2007 said:


> Well as soon as someones idea is copied and posted in the classifieds by someone else, could their post not be removed? I give up, its just wrong no matter how you look at it. I could never take someones idea and sell it as my own. I seen one of Jeffs blanks on Exotic's and Toni's and thought to myself if i purchase them I can say they are crafted from well known talented people who deserve the credit for their hard work. I'd never claim it as my own and I'd be honoured to mention them if the occasion arose.



Could there post be removed?  Sure it COULD... and if it breaks the TOS or AUP, it would...  however as was stated earlier, we can't go there.   The mods are not copyright police.  And unfortunately most of this isn't even as clear as copyright.   I'll use Toni as an example ... Should we remove posts where she is selling PC blanks?  She isn't the first person to post polymer pens here! 




keithkarl2007 said:


> Everyone to their own i guess. I would sooner give my money to someone who has taken the time to show me the ropes, pass on whatever knowledge they learned along the way and have the same respect for me as I have for them. I share my ideas freely on the forum. I posted the thread that started all the pendant fiasco and look how far that went. I just wonder if anyone has claimed "Oh i came up with that".



Another good example... Should we have stopped Richard from selling his pendant backing plates because someone else (you or otherwise) posted pendants first?  I would hope that even you would say no to that one.

Just trying to show you a little bit why we can't stop people from selling things .. they say theres two sides to every story.  I think thats only true if there is 2 people involved!   Hopefully this gives some insight into how grey this is.  Where does the "copy" line end and the "next innovation" line begin?


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## IPD_Mrs (Nov 6, 2010)

*Another contribution to forum etiquette....*

We have rules regulating where we as vendors can post "advertisements" and in fact there are forums just for us to use for this purpose. All forms of advertisement, including comments about ones own products should be limited to those forums or made through use of private message to a member IF it is appropriate to do so. This should also include vendors policies, other business issues - etc. Sneaky or veiled promotions of ones website, sales or products should be removed by mods and the vendor asked to place their comments in appropriate places. 

With regards several comments made to possibly remove the PM system . . we would not be in favor of doing so. The PM system is regulated according to the same rules as posts on the forums and any problems that are reported to Jeff are handled appropriately by him (even though you may not always get the answer you think you should Jeff has always been FAIR to everyone long as we have known him.) The PM system plays an important role in our mini society here when used politely. When it's not used appropriately it is up to the person who is offended to seek assistance in order to make sure that the rules are enforced as the should be.
We have been on the receiving end of negative PMs so we can speak to this from both sides of the fence (the negativity was very early on in our being a part of IAP and a difference of opinion / personality brought on the PM by a longer term member so it was much the same as some of you have described). Still, that having been said the value that MANY gain from the use of this system should not be destroyed by a small minority of individuals who seem to not know how to play nice at times.


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## Russianwolf (Nov 6, 2010)

I would like to suggest the Mods (since we now have more than 1, 2 if you count Jeff), when deciding whether a thread needs to be locked or deleted, move the thread to a moderator only section (only they can view it) and discuss among themselves whether it should be locked or delete. I know other forums using this software do this.

If they decide that no action is needed, they can then move it back to the public forum. Or if action is needed, that action can be taken.

I just think it should be the team that decides, not one person. The one person would just be making the decision to bring it to the team. 


Now individual posts in a thread would still be done as they are.


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## MesquiteMan (Nov 6, 2010)

Russianwolf said:


> I would like to suggest the Mods (since we now have more than 1, 2 if you count Jeff), when deciding whether a thread needs to be locked or deleted, move the thread to a moderator only section (only they can view it) and discuss among themselves whether it should be locked or delete. I know other forums using this software do this.
> 
> If they decide that no action is needed, they can then move it back to the public forum. Or if action is needed, that action can be taken.
> 
> ...



That is how we are doing it, Mike, except we temporarily delete the thread, discuss, then undelete if necessary.  ALL moderation activities are discussed in the moderator forum before final action is taken.  Even individual posts are thoroughly discussed.


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## IPD_Mrs (Nov 6, 2010)

[/quote]

Well as soon as someones idea is copied and posted in the classifieds by someone else, could their post not be removed? I give up, its just wrong no matter how you look at it. I could never take someones idea and sell it as my own. I seen one of Jeffs blanks on Exotic's and Toni's and thought to myself if i purchase them I can say they are crafted from well known talented people who deserve the credit for their hard work. I'd never claim it as my own and I'd be honoured to mention them if the occasion arose.[/quote]


I have the great fortune to have what I consider a rare treasure (a custom crafted Eagle feather out of black ebony and aluminum with the aluminum feathers being so thin that it is truly delicate and beautiful)  I have been asked so many times "did you make that?"  Now technically I could say that my husband did since he "technically" turned the blank and put the pen together.  But I'm with you on this, and I ALWAYS tell the person asking me about my beautiful pen and the very talented man who created it (made the blank) and then I explain how the creation I was gifted ended up being made into the pen (turned) by my husband.  Both of those things are true, it's just the integrity of which you choose to represent yourself.  I personally think it is more honest and ethical to let people know when you are making a pen out of a blank that you are not personally creating - not only is it the right thing to do but it will save you from a real ugly situation if you try to make a pen - blow it out and your creator can't get you another one in the time frame you need it ... just something for those who might claim things as their own to think about.


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## keithkarl2007 (Nov 6, 2010)

Of course I would say no to that. I am glad pendants have went as far as they have and some new material and tooling to make it more enjoyable. After it took off here I never turned any of them myself, I felt they just took off a picked up momentum quickly.
I don't know how you came up with Toni's work as an example, her work can't be compared to anyone's. She may not have been the first person to use PC but she was the first to come up with her unique designs.




alphageek said:


> keithkarl2007 said:
> 
> 
> > Well as soon as someones idea is copied and posted in the classifieds by someone else, could their post not be removed? I give up, its just wrong no matter how you look at it. I could never take someones idea and sell it as my own. I seen one of Jeffs blanks on Exotic's and Toni's and thought to myself if i purchase them I can say they are crafted from well known talented people who deserve the credit for their hard work. I'd never claim it as my own and I'd be honoured to mention them if the occasion arose.
> ...


----------



## DCBluesman (Nov 6, 2010)

You are not going to be successful at regulating ettiquette any more than government can legislate ethics. For each rule you make, there will be a new violation, either perceived or actual. 

Now, you can try to regulate actions on the forum. Governments make laws to regulate actions all the time. And then we end up needing police, court systems, appeals processes, etc. 

The fact of the matter is, this is an open forum. There will be harsh posts. There are harsh members. There will be hostile posts. There are hostile members. There will be posts that violate the TOS. Some members don't care if their posts get deleted as long as they get to voice an opinion.

Banning members? Good luck. Anyone can register as often as they like. Banning IP addresses. I've got a list of 50,000 proxy sites from which I can enter the forum.

Self regulation may work, but only if we ignore what is offensive. Remember, it's simply typed words on a screen. We give them life by giving them attention. If the words add value, acknowledge them. If the words do not add value, ignore them. 

Please feel free to ignore this, and any, of my posts.


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## keithkarl2007 (Nov 6, 2010)

Your right, we only end up fueling the flames here and should prevent ourselves from  replying to harsh posts, pms or emails in the same tone that they have been sent.


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## Gary Max (Nov 6, 2010)

Heck--- I am getting concerned about being over maderated----more rules = less freedom.
This from a member who has always thought a Good Neigbor Policy was a good ideal.


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## Smitty37 (Nov 6, 2010)

*No*



keithkarl2007 said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > Since we are now told that PMs and emails are not private, I would add that members should be able to opt out of receiving and/or sending Private Messages and emails sent from this site..
> ...


 No it means we should be able to choose not to receive PMs and emails from the site.


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## Spats139 (Nov 6, 2010)

DCBluesman said:


> ... Self regulation may work, but only if we ignore what is offensive. Remember, it's simply typed words on a screen. *We give them life by giving them attention. *If the words add value, acknowledge them. If the words do not add value, ignore them...



DCBluesman has pretty much nailed it. There will always be posts that express opinions that you may feel very strongly about, but no one can make you feel anything. Sure, your immediate gut response might be anger, insult, ridicule, pride, joy, or whatever; but, from the moment you realize how you initially reacted, the choice to continue to feel  that way is all up to you. If you feel good about it, that's great; if not, ignore it and move on.


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## ctubbs (Nov 6, 2010)

A thing that I try to do, but fail at misrabley, is try to think we are all sitting aroung a nice table, each armed with a weapon of choice.  Then if I am stupid enough to really insult my neighbor, I have a good chance of being blown away.  All to often, my allagator mouth overloads my hummingbird ass and I hurt someones feelings.  We all were, or should have been, taught manners as children.  If we remember what Mom and Granny taught us at the end of her wooden spoon, then maybe, just maybe, we can go and play nice.  My .02.
Charles

PS, Jeff, thank you for doing all the hard work to operate this site and give us a place to carry on this discussion.


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## Smitty37 (Nov 6, 2010)

*Thanks*



MesquiteMan said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > Since we are now told that PMs and emails are not private, I would add that members should be able to opt out of receiving and/or sending Private Messages and emails sent from this site..
> ...


 It looks like the option I was proposing already exists...Thanks for pointing it out.


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## GaryMGg (Nov 7, 2010)

DocStram said:


> ...
> _PS Please refrain from sending an inflammatory pm to me in response to this post . . . I've already received more than my share. _


Cut off at the pass! :biggrin:
Hi Doc, long time no see. Hope the world is wonderful up your way.
Always a pleasure to see you post and know you are well.


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## glycerine (Nov 7, 2010)

alphageek said:


> Gary Max said:
> 
> 
> > If you tell someone to "Kiss your A$$" that's still cussing
> ...


 
Apparently profanity isn't against the rules.  I wish it were.  I have reported language before and was told that this site follows the "prime time rule".  If it can be said on "prime time" television, then it's ok for this site...  But at the same time, the TOS and/or AUP says not to use vulgar or offensive language, so I have yet to figure out where the line is actually drawn.  This is something that I would like to see clarified in the "rule book"...


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## GaryMGg (Nov 7, 2010)

lazylathe said:


> ...If someone asks for criticism, be honest but fair, don't take a stab at them because you do not find their design to your liking.
> ...If you have something to say, say it in a nice way and try and keep it positive.
> 
> If the poster asks for comments don't just post that you don't like the design.
> ...


Andrew,

I'd like to nit-pick your response #19 in this thread.

I'll admit this: unless I know the person and they know me well, I'm more or less going to follow the advice you posted.
However, it's not what I want when I ask for someone to critique my work.

When I ask for criticism in a posting, I want real criticism right down to whether or not someone likes the design.
I *personally* don't want the reply sugar-coated. I don't want to be molly-coddled.
That's not to suggest their reply should be rude, mean, or a personal attack. 
However, I have no problem if they "attack" the product and tear it to shreds.
Maybe they see what I refuse to see and I'll learn what I came here to learn.

Too often, straight-forward advice and criticism is interpreted as an attack on the maker.
In almost all cases, it isn't but it's more work to post something with clear, concise meaning than many make the time to do.
I believe many threads go south for that reason.


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## GaryMGg (Nov 7, 2010)

Tony,


hilltopper46 said:


> Texatdurango said:
> 
> 
> > It may come as a shock to some but there are many "invisible groups" within the IAP membership where members use PM's to discuss thoughts, hold private "group buys" and the like
> ...


 
I interpreted George's post as an illustration of how some individual's believe they have an entitlement to someone else's time and effort.
In my opinion, the most salient portions of George's original post are elided in the portion quoted above.
We all need to be ever mindful that someone may have donated their time to respond to us and 
a follow-up might not be possible due to new restrictions on our time and/or capacity.
Respectfully,
Gary


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## MesquiteMan (Nov 7, 2010)

glycerine said:


> Apparently profanity isn't against the rules.  I wish it were.  I have reported language before and was told that this site follows the "prime time rule".  If it can be said on "prime time" television, then it's ok for this site...  But at the same time, the TOS and/or AUP says not to use vulgar or offensive language, so I have yet to figure out where the line is actually drawn.  This is something that I would like to see clarified in the "rule book"...



Now you are getting into a whole new philosophical debate...what is profanity?  Darn?  Dang?  Damn?  Shoot?  That is one that is EXTREMELY hard to enforce.  What is the difference between Darn and Damn?  Just one letter but the meaning is exactly the same.

A line has been drawn as you state above.  Our policy is Prime Time.  If it is acceptable for prime time Television, then it is fine here.

More info can be found here:
http://www.fcc.gov/cgb/consumerfacts/obscene.html


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## DurocShark (Nov 7, 2010)

Prime Time in which country?

:wink:

I've watched many forums swing from extreme to extreme. No efforts will ever be 100% successful. My recommendation is to use common sense, set the tone, and work *with* the users of the forum to improve things. Don't dictate. (Not saying I've seen any dictatorial attitudes here. You guys have been great.) 

90% of the burden HAS to be on the users. We need to be responsible for our own actions. The mods can't do it for us.


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## mbroberg (Nov 7, 2010)

Regarding profanity, here is a rule I would like to see followed. If you believe that the only way you can write a word on this forum is to attempt to disguise it by changing some of the letters to symbols, or by leaving blanks where letters belong, don't write the word. Contrary to the belief of some, you can't sanitize a word by replacing some letters with symbols. It is still read as the original word, it still has the same meaning as the original word, so if you are not comfortable with spelling out the word then the word is not appropriate and should not be used.


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## GaryMGg (Nov 7, 2010)

Mike,
Methinks Curtis' reply is superior because in matters such as these y'all need to Operationally Define what it is we must abide by.
"if you are not comfortable with spelling out the word then the word is not appropriate and should not be used" still leaves it up to the individual whereas "If it is acceptable for prime time Television, then it is fine here" follows a proscribed set of rules, regulations and requirements.

To continue with the original purpose of the thread, I'd like to see all iconic forms of communication (aka smilies) banned EXCEPT the cheshire cat grin :biggrin:

I can't count the number of times someone has used a smilie rather than making the time to write what they mean and, in the process, confusing
the issue rather than clearing the air.
It takes time, effort, and energy to write clearly and communicate what's on one's mind. 
If someone isn't willing to do it, maybe they should consider not posting until they can clearly translate their thoughts into words?
I know it ain't gonna happen, but I can dream, can't I?!? :biggrin::biggrin:


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## traderdon55 (Nov 7, 2010)

mbroberg said:


> Regarding profanity, here is a rule I would like to see followed. If you believe that the only way you can write a word on this forum is to attempt to disguise it by changing some of the letters to symbols, or by leaving blanks where letters belong, don't write the word. Contrary to the belief of some, you can't sanitize a word by replacing some letters with symbols. It is still read as the original word, it still has the same meaning as the original word, so if you are not comfortable with spelling out the word then the word is not appropriate and should not be used.



I have to agree with Mike on this. I have read studies that say 55% of people can read a sentence where the letters in the words are jumbled as long as the first and last letter of the words are in the right place. As far as disageements with a group this large people are going to disagree. I think everyone should just state their opinion and then let it go and not get into sending PMs just because you don't agree with someone. I guess I have been lucky because the only PMs I have recieved about anything I posted was from people that agreed with me but didn't want to post their opinion in an open forum. On the rare occasions I post I will continue to speak my mind and if you agree with me that is great and if you don't that is great too. If we could all take that attitude and realize everybody has different opinions things would go much better although I will be the first to admit I can't honestly say I am happy whem someone disagrees with me. There have been a couple of occasions and the past where someone has posted a disagreement with me and I have turned around and responded right back at them and later realized I should have let it drop as I had already given my opinion and there was no reason to respond to them for disagreeing with me. If everyone would just treat posting on the forums as if they were sitting in the room with the people they are posting to most of the threads would never go downhill because everyone I have met that are on IAP are a great bunch of people. I know in addition to our ArkLaTex chapter I have attended the North Texas chapter, the SW  Missouri chapter, and the Michigan chapter and everybody has treated me like an old friend when I attended their meetings. If everbody is this friendly in person we can't go wrong by just pretending we are sitting in the room with the people we are posting to.


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## bruce119 (Nov 7, 2010)

Some pepole just ant that good at typeing  the smilys defently add personality. And I am not going to use the spell check to shoe I am not all that good at typing :redface: a lot better then I used to be :biggrin:

What DO think that pepole should do and I do everytime but this one post is take the time to PREVIEW and read your post to yourself before you post.

I don't know how many times I changed a post because I did not like it after I read it.

My thoughts


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## keithkarl2007 (Nov 7, 2010)

Can we just let all this crap lie before we lose more valuable members? Those who are sending vile posts whether through a thread, a pm or email know who they are.


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## Padre (Nov 7, 2010)

I think there is a difference in misrepresenting words and spelling.  Spelling isn't that important to most people because they still get the 'meaning' of the word.  Take "their, there and they're" for instance.  I think what bothers some folks is the attempted disguising of profanity in some posts.

I really don't think it's about spelling.  I was always under the impression that to correct someone's spelling in a group such as this was 'bad form' unless it was a proper name or business name, etc.

To prove this I looked up an old internet article, and here it is:


Cna yuo raed tihs ? Olny 55 plepoe out of 100 can.

i cdnuolt  blveiee taht I cluod aulaclty uesdnatnrd waht I was rdanieg . The  phaonmneal pweor of the hmuan mnid, aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at  Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it dseno't mtaetr in waht oerdr the ltteres in a  wrod are, the olny iproamtnt tihng is taht the frsit and lsat ltteer be  in the rghit pclae . The rset can be a taotl mses and you can sitll raed  it whotuit a pboerlm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mn id deos not raed  ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe . Azanmig huh? yaeh and I  awlyas tghuhot slpeling was ipmorantt!


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## mbroberg (Nov 7, 2010)

GaryMGg said:
			
		

> Mike,
> Methinks Curtis' reply is superior because in matters such as these y'all need to Operationally Define what it is we must abide by.
> "if you are not comfortable with spelling out the word then the word is not appropriate and should not be used" still leaves it up to the individual whereas "If it is acceptable for prime time Television, then it is fine here" follows a proscribed set of rules, regulations and requirements.
> 
> ...



Why do people try to disguise the words they use then?  A word is either acceptable for use on the forum, or it is unacceptable.  If it is acceptable, go ahead and use it.  If it is not acceptable, changing a few letters to symbols doesn't transform it into an acceptable word.

I don't have any problem at all applying Curtis' standard to communication on the forum.  What I am trying to say is that regardless of the standard applied there should never be any reason to try to sneak a vulgar or offensive word into a post.  If the word" example" is not a word that is approprite for prime time TV, then writing it out as "exa*ple" doesn't make it any more acceptable.


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## MesquiteMan (Nov 7, 2010)

Just a quick correction, Mike...It is NOT my standard, it is IAP's standard as agreed on by Jeff and myself.  I know that is most likely what you meant, just thought I would clarify.

Personally, my language is pretty bad.  I grew up hearing it and hear it every day in the construction business.  No excuse, just a habit that I have not taken the time to try to break yet.  I do not use bad language around my 4 y.o. daughter, though.  Don't want her to grow up with it like I did.


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## mbroberg (Nov 7, 2010)

Thanks Curtis. I look upon you as the FCC of the IAP.:wink: I know you don't arbitrarily impose your own rules on the membership, you represent the IAP management, and you do it very well.

I too have pretty much a "potty mouth". Not too much offends me after 33 years in law enforcement.

From what I know of you, you should hope your daughter grows up lke you, except prettier!


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## Smitty37 (Nov 7, 2010)

*maybe*



GaryMGg said:


> Mike,
> Methinks Curtis' reply is superior because in matters such as these y'all need to Operationally Define what it is we must abide by.
> "if you are not comfortable with spelling out the word then the word is not appropriate and should not be used" still leaves it up to the individual whereas "If it is acceptable for prime time Television, then it is fine here" follows a proscribed set of rules, regulations and requirements.
> 
> ...


I really don't see it as a problem here but they can get pretty bad at times on prime time TV.  I use a smile now and then to set the tone.  I wrote what I meant but I want the reader to know that I didn't write it in a malicious tone.


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## GaryMGg (Nov 7, 2010)

Mike,
I wasn't saying trying to mask stuff as s*uff changes the word.
I was saying there are too many diverse opinions to use a standard such as "if you wouldn't type the word, don't use it."
Some will simply type the word rather than trying to mask it.
Many folks I know substitute a letter in common, vulgar language because they believe they're being sensitive to others' feelings.
So, while I agree with your basic premise as a principle, I believe Curtis' suggestion is better because it has a specific set of guidelines which are NOT open to interpretation.
That's why I suggested y'all want to operationally define the terms for posting.
The idea should be as explicit as language permits with the least amount of subjective input as possible.
With a group this large, the less room for misinterpretation the better (in my opinion).
Cheers,
Gary


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## mbroberg (Nov 7, 2010)

GaryMGg said:


> Many folks I know substitute a letter in common, vulgar language because they believe they're being sensitive to others' feelings.


 
Gary, my friend, I agree, and this is my point.  If the person is not comfortable writing the word as is, because it is considered to be, "common, vulgar language" and feels the need to substitute a letter in order to be sensitve to the feelings of another, they should just find another word.


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## TellicoTurning (Nov 7, 2010)

bobleibo said:


> - Don't make it personal. If you don't agree with something, disagree with the concept or idea, not the person.



Think about your post.. would you want someone to say to you what you've just written or posted to someone else...


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## TellicoTurning (Nov 7, 2010)

mbroberg said:


> GaryMGg said:
> 
> 
> > Many folks I know substitute a letter in common, vulgar language because they believe they're being sensitive to others' feelings.
> ...



I have to agree with both on this point.. we need to learn to communicate with our language, not vulgarity...


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## BRobbins629 (Nov 7, 2010)

Sure would be nice if we had this much conversation and input into pen making.  Or is it pen turning?


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## IPD_Mrs (Nov 7, 2010)

GaryMGg said:


> Mike,
> I wasn't saying trying to mask stuff as s*uff changes the word.
> I was saying there are too many diverse opinions to use a standard such as "if you wouldn't type the word, don't use it."
> Some will simply type the word rather than trying to mask it.
> ...


 
I have to agree with Gary on this one.  I would be quite comfortable typing some words that many of you might find offensive.  Other words I would not want to type, even though if we were talking I might say them (but not with children around - thus the not typing them.)  Therefore when someone says if you aren't comfortable typing it find a different word, my first instinct is that many people would think "fine I'll type what I am comfortable with."   This is much like the sexual harassment laws.  You could tell me a joke and I wouldn't find it at all offensive - it is relatively hard to embarrass or offend me.  Yet, the person standing around the corner who over hears this joke and IS offended has a right to file sexual harassment against you for telling said joke.


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## Wildman (Nov 8, 2010)

Read almost every etiquette post here. Did skim over a few redundant postings.

Lot of great ideas.

I hope am not the only happy person here. 

Really enjoy this site and personalities here.


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## Smitty37 (Nov 8, 2010)

*We do*



BRobbins629 said:


> Sure would be nice if we had this much conversation and input into pen making. Or is it pen turning?


 
We do.  It's just not all in one thread.


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## snyiper (Nov 8, 2010)

We are artistic designers of precision writing instruments.    :biggrin:


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## Gentleben (Nov 8, 2010)

I don't write much but there are a couple of things that bug me to no end.  I am elderly to say the least and I have a hard time following the abriviations some of you younger guys use.  Heck I don't even have a cell phone and I believe they are used in texting.  The other thing that bothers me is not putting what a pen is made out of with the pictures  I really don't mean to complain.  Happy turning from the Permian Basin in far West Texas.
Gentleben


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## JimB (Nov 8, 2010)

Gentleben said:


> I don't write much but there are a couple of things that bug me to no end. I am elderly to say the least and I have a hard time following the abriviations some of you younger guys use. Heck I don't even have a cell phone and I believe they are used in texting. The other thing that bothers me is not putting what a pen is made out of with the pictures I really don't mean to complain. Happy turning from the Permian Basin in far West Texas.
> Gentleben


 
This link will help you. It has almost everything listed. It's from the Library Index.

http://content.penturners.org/articles/2009/Acronyms.pdf


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## ed4copies (Nov 8, 2010)

Gentleben said:


> I don't write much but there are a couple of things that bug me to no end.  I am elderly to say the least and I have a hard time following the abriviations some of you younger guys use.  Heck I don't even have a cell phone and I believe they are used in texting.  The other thing that bothers me is not putting what a pen is made out of with the pictures  I really don't mean to complain.  Happy turning from the Permian Basin in far West Texas.
> Gentleben



Thanks for the comment, David.  Maybe if you print out this document and keep it nearby, you will be more easily able to interpret some posts.

http://content.penturners.org/articles/2009/Acronyms.pdf

Stop back often, don't be afraid to ask "What the heck does that mean???"  (a saying sometimes abbreviated by a "not so nice" shortening--I'll avoid that!!)

Hope to hear from you again, soon!!


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