# What type of finish for a $1000 pen?



## Rolandranch (Mar 21, 2017)

I was wondering what kind of finish should be used on a $1000-$2000 pen with a material that is similar to wood. Is there a finish that should be used other than CA for a pen in this price range? Is polyurethane better? I have read the IAP article using the dipping method though I have not tried it and don't know if that is something to consider. I'm willing to put as much work as is necessary to get the best finish possible for this type of pen.
Any advice from the "experts" is greatly appreciated!


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## leehljp (Mar 21, 2017)

Urushi (Japanese form of lacquer) without a doubt. The learning curve is steep and long, but perfect finishes will draw the big bucks.

Most finishes will be OK under the right conditions. But the problem with most finishes is not the type of finish it is, but the inexperience of the user. You can't just put on a super and expensive finish and let the finish do its work, it takes the experience of knowing the material, its characteristics at different temps and humidities along with the material it is being used on. How thick or thin to use it, flow rate knowledge from experience, not from a chart.

Seth, one thing I have noticed over the years, a young eager to learn person can learn faster than an old eager to learn person. I was 40 trying to learn Japanese; I did but it took two lifetimes!

Seriously, technique is every bit as important as the type. You are on the right track in wanting to learn techniques. You will get there!


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## thewishman (Mar 21, 2017)

With a wood pen in that range, stabilized wood is the only way I would go. Reduce the effects of humidity and temperature on the wood.


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## ed4copies (Mar 21, 2017)

One of the comparisons I made, when I sold pens was to fine furniture.

Do you have a top-shelf wooden dining room table?  What is it's finish?  Probably a lacquer--yet you have to polish it regularly to keep the protective wax coating over that lacquer.  Of course, you also put pads on the table when serving hot items.

Once the customer accepts this comparison, they MAY treat the pen with the respect it deserves.  In any event, the chance of the pen "looking good" is dramatically improved!!

Many light coats of spray lacquer will yield a beautiful, durable finish on your wood pen.  It takes weeks of careful application and sanding, but the result is worth the effort.

I have no idea how to do urushi--but it is probably a better finish, if done correctly.


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## Rolandranch (Mar 21, 2017)

leehljp said:


> Urushi (Japanese form of lacquer) without a doubt. The learning curve is steep and long, but perfect finishes will draw the big bucks.
> 
> Most finishes will be OK under the right conditions. But the problem with most finishes is not the type of finish it is, but the inexperience of the user. You can't just put on a super and expensive finish and let the finish do its work, it takes the experience of knowing the material, its characteristics at different temps and humidities along with the material it is being used on. How thick or thin to use it, flow rate knowledge from experience, not from a chart.
> 
> ...


Thank you very much. I did not know about Urushi. I will definitely begin learning about this method. I understand what you mean when you say it takes a lot of experience to do it well. I think the same thing applies to a CA finish. For example, after finishing nearly 200 pens with a "good" CA finish, I have finally figured out how to do a "perfect" CA finish (very near perfect anyway). 

Anyway, thank you very much for this information. I believe this is exactly what I needed to know.


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## Ted iin Michigan (Mar 21, 2017)

I know nothing about urushi, but I do have some familiarity with lacquer. I've used it often on furniture and cabinetry. It's a wonderful finish, but it isn't perfect. I don' t believe it is as durable as, say, CA and it is quite susceptible to water damage if it is in contact with water for more than a short time. It will absorb the water and "cloud up" - pretty much permanently. 
CA has a "plastic" reputation which I think is undeserved. It most certainly has a learning curve but when done properly it is VERY durable and presents itself like crystal. It took me several years to "get it right" (and I'm still tweaking the process) but I'd be comfortable putting my CA finish on a high end pen.


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## Chasper (Mar 22, 2017)

To make a wood pen that I intend to sell in that price range I start with stabilized wood, overturn it slightly, then put it into a mold and over cast it with clear poly resin or clear epoxy resin, put it back on the lathe and turn it down to size, then finish it like a resin pen; sanding, micro mesh, buffing.


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## Rolandranch (Mar 22, 2017)

I have thought about doing it that way but didn't know if that would work. Thank you.


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## jttheclockman (Mar 22, 2017)

Seth a CA finish will do fine if you have mastered the process and have field tested your methods. Urushi is a traditional finish that takes much learning of the process. Solarez is or seems to be proving to be a worthwhile investment of time and effort. There are certain epoxies that will withstand the test of time. I always refer back to the big names in the industry. They sell $10,000 pens and higher. Do some leg work and find out what they finish with. Takes some doing but how much time and effort you put into something maybe worth the end product. But when you get into pens made from wood and they are not stabilized you can have potential problems. Wood moves.


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## leehljp (Mar 22, 2017)

While you are experimenting, there are things you can do to overcome the "plasticy" look. Some satin paints will eliminate the "shine". 
EDITING: If someone does not want a shiny finish - Use a satin finish, don't sand the shine away off of a shiny finish. The sanding marks that takes the shine off will be visible under a magnifying glass. Not good for a $1000. pen.

Finish CA and some other finishes to a high gloss so that you can see if there are imperfections anywhere. 
One place to start:
A good high quality bright light will help you find imperfections. A loupe or good magnifying glass will help you see scratches that the un-aided eye cannot see. Some people might think this is ridiculous but if you are selling a $1000 and higher pen, you don't want a buyer coming back showing you the imperfections. 

A GOOD shiny GOOD finish will not look plastic. Look up Manu Propria pens:
http://www.penturners.org/forum/f13/manu-propria-pens-aka-tame-momiji-147017/
These are shiny but do not look plasticy. That is the result of technique, and practice with the specific finish. Dipping in CA or Lacquer can produce something close but it can also look terrible. The upper end of finishes is with technique and practice - guided by good lighting and magnifier usage - looking for the imperfections, and learning how to eliminate the imperfections.


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## Rolandranch (Mar 22, 2017)

leehljp said:


> While you are experimenting, there are things you can do to overcome the "plasticy" look. Some satin paints will eliminate the "shine".
> EDITING: If someone does not want a shiny finish - Use a satin finish, don't sand the shine away off of a shiny finish. The sanding marks that takes the shine off will be visible under a magnifying glass. Not good for a $1000. pen.
> 
> Finish CA and some other finishes to a high gloss so that you can see if there are imperfections anywhere.
> ...


I don't think using a loupe and good lighting is ridiculous at all... because that's what the customers are using to look at your pens. I'll definitely be doing plenty of experimenting. Thank you for sharing your insight on this topic.


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## Ambidex (Mar 22, 2017)

Seth...after seeing some of your work and just guessing where you may want to go with this I would suggest contacting Martin at info@manupropriapens.ch
 If that link doesn't work just go to his homepage...a wealth of knowledge and some of the classiest pens and techniques I've seen. Just an opinion and I'm sure you'll see right away if it's for you...Best of luck:wink:..ah..I see couple posts ago leehljp  said pretty much the same..


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## Rolandranch (Mar 22, 2017)

Ambidex said:


> Seth...after seeing some of your work and just guessing where you may want to go with this I would suggest contacting Martin at info@manupropriapens.ch
> If that link doesn't work just go to his homepage...a wealth of knowledge and some of the classiest pens and techniques I've seen. Just an opinion and I'm sure you'll see right away if it's for you...Best of luck:wink:..ah..I see couple posts ago leehljp  said pretty much the same..



Thank you for the info and email address. I will be contacting him. I do plan on going far with pen-making... *very *far unless God points me in a different direction. Thank you for your help!


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## leehljp (Mar 22, 2017)

Seth,

Another thing to pursue is kitless. Designing your own, maybe around a good solid transmission for ball/roller balls and branching into fountain pens.

A quality fountain pen will draw interest from those with disposable income at a higher price - quicker than the same quality ball point. 

A word of encouragement: We old folks here see young people around who don't have the overall initiative to just do things, and sometimes we make comments to that effect. However, over the years on this forum, pen making has drawn some very good and talented young people who stand out, learn faster and have great vision for design that many of us old folks don't necessarily see. 

You have talent. Keep it up! 

One more word of wisdom. This was repeated a few days ago on another thread that I can't find now. As you develop your talent, you can post and show it here, BUT when you get into unique designs, keep them to yourself except to sell. Unique designs are quickly copied by mass producers. Martin at Manu Propria has unique pens but the production time is about 30 days per pen, so some designs are safe from quick copy. The reason I am mentioning this is that to talented individuals, there are unscrupulous people who will take advantage of unique designs, copy, mass produce and never give it a second thought.


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## Rolandranch (Mar 22, 2017)

Mr. Lee,

I have been very anxious to start making kitless pens so I am not limited to "kit" pens. I just need to find out what I need (taps, dies and anything else I may need) and I need to read a little more about the process involved.

I think this may be the thread you were referring to: http://www.penturners.org/forum/f18/selling-your-pen-147007/index2.html or this one, http://www.penturners.org/forum/f22/show-us-75268/

I read them both a couple days ago and I'm very glad I read them when I did...

I hope to be able to make kitless pens soon. If you know of any good resources that I should look at, please let me know. 
Thank you very much for your encouragement and advice.


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## Eldermike (Mar 22, 2017)

Chasper said:


> To make a wood pen that I intend to sell in that price range I start with stabilized wood, overturn it slightly, then put it into a mold and over cast it with clear poly resin or clear epoxy resin, put it back on the lathe and turn it down to size, then finish it like a resin pen; sanding, micro mesh, buffing.





I've used resin over wood turned tubes and they look beautiful, however, if the pen falls off a desk/table the resin can crack easily.  I had 2 pens returned fairly quickly because of hair line cracks after the pen fell on a hard surface.  Problem I found is that the resin coating is just too thin once turned.  I did some experimentation with boiled linseed/denatured alcohol/clear Shellac followed by wax and buff with good results. 



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## 1080Wayne (Mar 22, 2017)

Eldermike said:


> Chasper said:
> 
> 
> > To make a wood pen that I intend to sell in that price range I start with stabilized wood, overturn it slightly, then put it into a mold and over cast it with clear poly resin or clear epoxy resin, put it back on the lathe and turn it down to size, then finish it like a resin pen; sanding, micro mesh, buffing.
> ...



Did you use a polyester resin ? I have never had Alumilite crack under similar circumstances .


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## Wildman (Mar 23, 2017)

Think materials use, rarity, availability, and desire is what draws a commanding price for your pens.  If looking at film finishes, anyone of them can be used if take the time and finish the finish.

Take a look at the most expensive pens in the world mostly fountain pen with a few ball points listed in first two links.   The most expensive pens in the world come from companies not individuals.  Many years back found a list of individual pen artist from around the world their pens usually sold for couple to many thousands of dollars. Do you know anyone that would even spend a $1,000 for a pen?  Bottom line people pay for brand recognition whether big company or talented artist.

Best Selling, Most Expensive Pens in The World 2016-2017, Top 10 List

Expensive Pens, Limited Edition Expensive Fountain Pens and Rare Pens

Not sure know anyone that is going to pay a $1,000 or more for a wood or acrylic pen but could be wrong.


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## Eldermike (Mar 23, 2017)

Yes polyester resin.  


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## AWLogue (Mar 23, 2017)

My vote is for a well-stabilized wood, sanded to 12000 grit, with a simple wax or oil finish. There's no chance of chipping, swelling, or clouding, and it's easily user-maintainable.


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## jttheclockman (Mar 23, 2017)

Wildman said:


> Think materials use, rarity, availability, and desire is what draws a commanding price for your pens.  If looking at film finishes, anyone of them can be used if take the time and finish the finish.
> 
> Take a look at the most expensive pens in the world mostly fountain pen with a few ball points listed in first two links.   The most expensive pens in the world come from companies not individuals.  Many years back found a list of individual pen artist from around the world their pens usually sold for couple to many thousands of dollars. Do you know anyone that would even spend a $1,000 for a pen?  Bottom line people pay for brand recognition whether big company or talented artist.
> 
> ...




It is the material used and also the name brand and the sales force behind it. 

I will say this if you want to get up into the thousands of dollars for pens that you make, it better be an elite pen and it also would help if you package it in a unique style. Something like the pool table box I made is above and beyond what is out there. A wood pen can command a pretty penny if it is a unique well documented wood. Add a beautiful etched scene to it and you are there. There have been examples of expensive pens come through here by various artisans. Not something you see often because of various reasons and they have been mentioned before. 

My point is a great finish is only a small part of making that $1000 pen. Finding the buyer is another huge part of that pen. Throw away cash. How many people have it. ???


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## ed4copies (Mar 23, 2017)

One man's "throw away cash" is another man's "functional art appreciation".  The difference is in the sales presentation.  First step is YOU have to believe in your product, then you have to learn the language to make that belief contagious.


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## edstreet (Mar 23, 2017)

The good answer is any finish can be used.  Just make sure it's correct for the material and your good to go. 

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## jttheclockman (Mar 23, 2017)

Boy I looked back at some of the past threads on this type topic and back in 2005 we were talking about $250 pens being the highend hard to sell pens. Inflation I am guessing. Today a $250 pen is a basic standard pen. But once again location and salesman are key factors. That has not changed.


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## jttheclockman (Mar 23, 2017)

www.penturners.org/forum/f22/can-done-77983/

One of my all time favorite pens ever shown here


http://www.penturners.org/photos/images/2611/2_tears.jpg


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