# Calling production turners!



## vick (Oct 17, 2006)

Not sure if I will get any responce for this but I am interested so I thought I would try.

In another thread the discussion came up about being able to turn and finish a pen in 10 minutes.  Would any of you that that do this regularly please detail you process for me.  I would like to compare peoples methods to see if there are similarities that might allow myself or others cut off some time.

Specifically - 
blank cutting and drilling proceedure
tools used (roughing gouge and skew, just skew, spindel gouge, ect.) If you use any specific cuts such as a peeling cut with a skew also list them.
lathe speed
sanding proceedure( grits used, lathe speed, amount of time on each grit)
finishing proceedure

Edited In - Everyone please do not disparage or debate the techniques or methods used.  This is informational for people interested in production pen turning methods.  If you are not interested please just move on.


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## guts (Oct 17, 2006)

Vick,i hope you get some replies for this,good questions,good luck.


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## DCBluesman (Oct 17, 2006)

I hope you don't mind a "dated" reply.  The pen in question was about my 10th.  http://www.penturners.org/forum/topic.asp?ARCHIVE=true&TOPIC_ID=1464


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## ctEaglesc (Oct 17, 2006)

I'd like to see the asking price for thses pens and how many are sold.
I recall a thread where someone was told that the amount they were selling their pens for was ridiculous.(thie thread I am speaking of is well over a year old.
Let me just say that if you go bragging on a public forum you can turn and finsh a pen in 10 minutes and maybe 10 minutes more to finish please don't bemoan the fact you can't get what you think your pens are worth,
You just proved it.
I bet the production turners in Taiwan or China can do them in less than 5 minutes.
You know the ones that go for less than $10.00[^]


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## ed4copies (Oct 17, 2006)

Mike,

I demo at almost every show.  The purpose is to show people how it's made and to differentiate between "quick" and "best".  So, at the shows, a wood pen is turned in under 3 minutes-skew from start to finish, pen B to B and using the TN comfort pen body from PSI (kit cost is about $2.50 - don't honestly remember, I bought 200 on my last purchase).  Turn at top speed of Jet VS mini-a little over 4000 rpm, sand rapidly from 150 to 600 grit, friction polish - telling the audience the whole time that this is the way you CAN make a pen and get a very acceptable result.  Like fine furniture, you have to continuously repolish.  

I also tell them that the pens that came with me are finished differently-and that is what makes them more expensive.  For ME, this is the reason I show mostly acrylics.  I can easily differentiate - it takes longer to turn acrylic and the finish is COMPLETE when the pen is removed from the mandrel.  But, the process of making it SHINE is different.  The shine will last forever, assuming you don't mistreat it.  

Actually, I have turned some acrylic pens at shows now.  They can be TURNED in a few minutes also, but sanding through the many grits required for acrylic makes for a pretty boring demo.  I read somewhere (Maybe here) a guy demoing says, "There really isn't anything I can think of that is more boring than sanding".   The guy in the audience says, "Yes, there is!  Watching somebody sanding!!!"   I have tried to keep that in mind as I "entertain" the craft show attendees.

Hope this helps.  As most of you know, I don't consider MY way the ONLY or the BEST way - but it helps me sell hundreds of pens per year, from which I derive pleasure.

YOUR mileage WILL, undoubtedly, vary!!!


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## ed4copies (Oct 17, 2006)

The prior entries were not there when I started writing, so let me add:  Eagle knows that we are two sides of a coin - diametrically different, and GOOD FRIENDS!

I respect what the "artists" in the group produce.  I am not that talented nor that patient.  We agree there is room in the world for both of us.  AND, we get along quite well respecting each others' areas of expertise.  [][]


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## Dario (Oct 17, 2006)

I would be interested to see the results.

I am not a production turner and wouldn't aspire to be one.  Though I can turn a pen in 3 minutes (if I am lucky with the material), my average is about 2 hours a pen (including prep work).  Finishing takes forever in my case. [][B)]

Oh, and it usually takes me more than 10 minutes (sometimes twice as long) just to decide which blank to use! [:I]


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## vick (Oct 17, 2006)

Thanks Lou and Ed I appreciate your comments.

Dario -  I am with you to a point. I am more interested in non B2B stuff but occasionally I need to build up stock and would like to be able to crank several good quality B2B pens in a short amount of time to increase inventory and let me get back to other interests quickly.

Eagle - I would respectfully ask that you start a new thread if you wish to discuss the quality or pricing or sales volume of production turned pens.


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## ed4copies (Oct 17, 2006)

At the shows, deciding which blank to use is simple - I have about 50 pens worth with me, I grab the one closest to the end of the drawer!!  

Woods are all easy to turn, or they wouldn't be IN the drawer! 
(Cherry, walnut, zebrawood, bloodwood, canarywood).

Plastics are also in the drawer, but I know the difference, so I only take one out if it looks like a crowd that will leave quickly anyway - one pen can draw two or three crowds before it is complete.


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## btboone (Oct 17, 2006)

Interesting stuff.  For me, my "production" pens take something like a couple hours to drill and turn, and something like 6 hours to finish.  Even in Production Mode, they are not bringing in what they should per hour.  I need to get finishing time way down and have some experiments to try for that.


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## kenwc (Oct 17, 2006)

I have no desire whatsoever to make a pen in 10 minutes.  If I were to do so, Id find another hobby.


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## SteveRoberts (Oct 17, 2006)

If I told you.... I would have to kill you... because you would show up with your stuff at a show I am doing and would rather not have two pen-guys at.

I have done something few people have, turned this into a full time living generating business. So I don't talk too much about the things I have learned the hard way and make it easy for someone to do what I did and become a competitor.

Out of respect to our thred-starter I will sdd a few facts to the mix.  I have found that the turing of a pen is only a fragment of the total time invested in one. Material selection, blank prep, finishing and assmebly all take as long or longer. I looked hard at each of these items and found ways to get more done in less time.

Batches are MUCH more efficient than single pens.

Blank cutting I do on a sled on the TS. It has pre-set slots for each pen style I do. No measuring means no mistakes or delays.

Drilling on a set of DP's, both halves in a special jig, less time clamping and unclamping if you do two at a time.

Chisel, several, all SHARP and combination of roughing gough, fingernail profiles, custom ground to my turning style.

Use your fingers as much as your sand paper, it prevents oversanding and time wasting. I found that about half of my back and forths weren't needed and did nothing to improve the pen.

To do this at "production speed" is a learned and maintained skill. I turn a lot and daily. Even so.... I break things and dig in too deep and end up changing shapes as a result.

Slower is not better... better is better. People aren't asking about time, they are asking about VALUE. I routinely get very good prices on my products because they preceive VALUE.

Peole sometimes ask me about how long it takes to make a pen, I ask them "at what phase?" I grab a really great grain on a pen and say "how far down the pallet of 400 boards would you dig for this?"....

Technique... fast and hard at first, then gentler and slower at then end...I never use a skew, but I turn near-stone hard pens and that might be why.

Today my wife and I made an order of 60 pens. The customer is euphoric and PAID the invoice. She came back after buying a lowly slimline at a show and carrying it for 9 months, it looked as good as the day she bought it, so my double-secret-don't-bother-asking finishing methed that doesn't take me 30 minutes is going to stay my preferred method.


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## SteveRoberts (Oct 17, 2006)

> _Originally posted by kenwc_
> <br />I have no desire whatsoever to make a pen in 10 minutes.  If I were to do so, Id find another hobby.



With sincere respect Ken, production turning is not a hobby. Tiger Woods is a production golfer... he takes it heart-attack seriously and the results of his efforts are obvious. I think Mike is trying to get some insight about speed, how it happens, how the fast guys got fast.


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## kenwc (Oct 17, 2006)

With even more sincere respect, I did not say that production turning is a hobby although it could be for someone who's got it down like that. Turning pens is a hobby for ME.  I do make some money at it but I enjoy the turning and for me, if I could do it in 10 minutes I personally would not be that gratified.  JHMO....  

I've also thought about building a jig to drill two blanks or MORE in the same session.  I also prep many kits ahead of time to the tubed and trimmed stage and keep them in bins for turning binges.  I "do" entend to get a second drill press and leave it set up for drilling and use the other for trimming.  Just seems like what Tim Taylor would do.

I have several mandrels and several sets of the same bushings that are utilized at the same time.

For me, the devil is in the finishing...I've not yet stopped doing he steps I could probably stop as I achieve a diminshing return.


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## SteveRoberts (Oct 17, 2006)

> _Originally posted by kenwc_
> <br />
> 
> For me, the<b> devil is in the finishing</b>...I've not yet stopped doing he steps I could probably stop as I achieve a diminshing return.



Amen, I recommend an exorcism. I will say this, too many people here are missing the obvious, there is no really fast way to do a CA finish. I won't get into an argument over finishes.. just making a point.


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## jrc (Oct 17, 2006)

Hay guys don't go overboard about this. Some do things faster than others. Some people take a long time to do the same thing. Sometime they can do it better taken longer, sometimes they can not.  In the next week or two I will make a CD of me making  and completing a pen in 20 minutes or so and send out to who ever would like to see it.


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## dubdrvrkev (Oct 17, 2006)

Finish aside, the best way to speed up production is to look at the whole process. What I mean is, are the machines place in logical order? Can you minimize the amount of walking to get from one station to another? Are all the tools you need at each station at arms reach? Are there any steps that can happen concurrently? 
As you know I am not a production turner, but I do have experience in designing processes. When I am doing batches of pens I try to stagger them in logical numbers. I do sets of six normally because it works for my mandrel rotation and cut/tube/square and sharpen times. All that and I'm still slow, mostly because I'm anal about the finish.

Edit: As far as tools go, use what stays sharp the longest and gives the best surface to cut down on sanding time.


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## jrc (Oct 17, 2006)

That is one of the main things is to have every job setup where you can do it quickly and easily.


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## Ron in Drums PA (Oct 17, 2006)

I'm not a production turner (thank goodness)

But if one turns pen in multiples, allot of time can be saved.

For instance.
Cut 25 blanks
drill 25 blanks
glue 25 blanks
turn 25 blanks
and so on...


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## ashaw (Oct 17, 2006)

When I first started to turn pen I got to a point where I was doing one every 15 minutes.  I lost alot of material due to blowout.  My finish look like a 1.00 vs a 25.00.  I began to slow it down an made sure I got the finish I was looking for.  Like a lot of people are aying it's all in the setup.  I do all of glue ups in batchs of 6 - 10 pens so that I do not have any down time.  I drill all like sizes at once so that I am not change bits all the time.


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## wdcav1952 (Oct 17, 2006)

Steve and Jim,

I am not a production turner.  This definitely is a hobby with me, but I would like to turn more efficiently as I hope to get into more sales in the future.  I for one appreciate what you are sharing with us.  Certainly there is room at the "turning table" for different approaches and different solutions.  I am not threatened by your successes, and await the opportunity to learn more about this craft/art.


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## btboone (Oct 18, 2006)

My turning of rings is very production oriented.  I turn all the rings at once on the lathe and break down secondary operations into things that can be multitasked like laser, engraving, machining certer operations, and rotary axis carving.  I do some things in batches, but find better quality control if I single handle a ring during the finishing process to be sure everything is correct.  There is usually something like 20 to 30 rings in the mix at any time.  Efficiency of the technique and having dialed in equipment is what it's all about.  I have 8 separate rotary tools with different grits for finishing so I don't need to spend the time changing them out.  I have polishing of the titanium down to a science and can get a good polish with a mimimum of time. I have specialized mandrels and handling equipment to polish the rings in a safer and faster method than before.  When you do enough of something, you look for ways to tweak in efficiency.  I tend to think in terms of dollars per hour and how to always improve on that number.  I consistantly do over $200/hour with peaks to around $600.  Today was a good day with sales over $4k.  I can't seem to get ahead of my stone settings.  I have 8 of those to do now.  Those are very high end and take individual attention, so I tend to do those after hours after the phone and email stops.  They are something I cannot rush.  During the day, I tend to do the largest amount of rings possible and take care of the most customers as possible.  I believe that quick turnaround time is a big plus.  My wife handles the paperwork and shipping, so frees me up to do what I do best, which is cranking on rings.  Production does tend to be a grind at times, but in the big picture things could certainly be worse.


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## SteveRoberts (Oct 18, 2006)

That settles it, I am going into rings....

Thanks for the tutorial. We do the same thing, the $ per hour thing, we have an inside joke when the production gets tedious... We both say in a nasal kid like tone.. " I don't want to work for $300 an hour"... we both laugh a litt as it reminds us of how well we have it, and that hard work got us there.




> _Originally posted by btboone_
> <br />My turning of rings is very production oriented.  I turn all the rings at once on the lathe and break down secondary operations into things that can be multitasked like laser, engraving, machining certer operations, and rotary axis carving.  I do some things in batches, but find better quality control if I single handle a ring during the finishing process to be sure everything is correct.  There is usually something like 20 to 30 rings in the mix at any time.  Efficiency of the technique and having dialed in equipment is what it's all about.  I have 8 separate rotary tools with different grits for finishing so I don't need to spend the time changing them out.  I have polishing of the titanium down to a science and can get a good polish with a mimimum of time. I have specialized mandrels and handling equipment to polish the rings in a safer and faster method than before.  When you do enough of something, you look for ways to tweak in efficiency.  I tend to think in terms of dollars per hour and how to always improve on that number.  I consistantly do over $200/hour with peaks to around $600.  Today was a good day with sales over $4k.  I can't seem to get ahead of my stone settings.  I have 8 of those to do now.  Those are very high end and take individual attention, so I tend to do those after hours after the phone and email stops.  They are something I cannot rush.  During the day, I tend to do the largest amount of rings possible and take care of the most customers as possible.  I believe that quick turnaround time is a big plus.  My wife handles the paperwork and shipping, so frees me up to do what I do best, which is cranking on rings.  Production does tend to be a grind at times, but in the big picture things could certainly be worse.


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## btboone (Oct 18, 2006)

I often times have motivational issues too.  It's lonely and boring working in a shop by yourself all day and into the night.  I have to remember back to commuting downdown after getting up at 5:00, wearing a suit, standing in line in the cold, and riding a freezing bus to work (and making a fraction of the money and putting up with corporate politics.)  I don't miss that part, but I do miss interaction with peers.  That's why I come here a lot. 

If you can do $300 hours, it does sound like you got your process and your niche in the market figured out.  It is a thrill to be able to do that.  Obviously, the trick for any of us is how to do more of those and continually sell the product.  Figuring out production is somewhat like a college course, except that if you're good at it, you make more money instead of get good grades.  I like that aspect of it, and it motivates me to do more in the efficiency regard.  I think nothing at all about spending a few hundred dollars on a new tool or technique if I think it has a chance at making things more efficient.  I feel that getting good tools is never wasted money, even if the process or technique doesn't work out like you expected.  When you multiply the time saved by hundreds or thousands, it becomes a no brainer.  That time is valuable and should be treated as such.  I remember the discussion of a Paul's Vise in those terms; the expense verses the saving and/or hassle factor of other methods.  I would definitely get one without hesitation if I was doing that type of work.  Little bits of efficiency add up to something larger.  You are able to ask a price for pens that might not otherwise be possible without that efficiency, and therefore may not get the jobs without being committed to that efficiency mindset.  The real trick is to come up with a new and different process that adds a lot of perceived value that doesn't take that much to implement.  That's where the real money is.


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## SteveRoberts (Oct 18, 2006)

> _Originally posted by btboone_
> <br />  The real trick is to come up with a new and different process that adds a lot of perceived value that doesn't take that much to implement.  That's where the real money is.



Very, very astute. Efficiency IS money. Either you offer a lower price for quality or you make more money for a given unit of time/effort.  We are marketing our brains out, and also building an inventory. I am fond of saying "there is no point in earning a living if you don't do any living". We are approaching a six-figure inventory level, adding a few thousand a week even during our busy season. The reason: we want to work 10 weeks take two weeks off. Repeat through out the year. There is nothing magic about making a lot of money, you work smart and long. The MAGIC comes in making a comfortable living and NOT working long or hard.

We were able to take a deal the other day we never would have been able to because of efficiency, the customer had a hamburger budget and steak expectations. Without one key addition to our production process I would have turned down a 60 unit order. Now that $$ buys 500 pen kits we can have in reserve before the next price increase takes effect. Instant return of 10%. Not bad by investment standards.


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## SteveRoberts (Oct 18, 2006)

Duplicate post due to slow browser issues.


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## Marc Phillips (Oct 18, 2006)

I was a production woodworker for 6 years... didn't plan that, but that's what happened. I had an order for a product, made them, the customer loved them, and placed a huge order and said she wanted that many several time a year... then I started checking around and found others who wanted that many too... so I ended up dropping all other products and commissions and went into full production mode. Got real tired of it too... and am really glad to be back working for someone else and woodworking is back to a hobby [] 

Anyway... I constantly critiqued every single phase of my operation, and did a lot of brainstorming while I was doing the mundane chores that make up production work... ended up increasing my output by several fold, and kept the quality the same or better than the original order that started all this.. I think keeping my eye on the quality of the product was the key... I knew why these people ordered from me... they were getting a better product at the same or only slightly higher price, and their customers were happier.

As for making pens, the part that slows me down the most is opening those stupid plastic zip lock bags! .... I just attack them with a box knife []


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## TomJ (Oct 18, 2006)

A production turner would not turn just one pen, he would do things in lots.  He would cut many blanks and the drill the many blanks.  How can he put a time on just one pen in 10 minutes.

In my opinion, there is no fun and no innovation in production turning .


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## jrc (Oct 18, 2006)

A good sound system in your shops realy helps.


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## JasonF (Oct 18, 2006)

I would love to see it. 

Thanks for starting this post Mike.



> _Originally posted by jrc_
> <br />Hay guys don't go overboard about this. Some do things faster than others. Some people take a long time to do the same thing. Sometime they can do it better taken longer, sometimes they can not.  In the next week or two I will make a CD of me making  and completing a pen in 20 minutes or so and send out to who ever would like to see it.


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## bonefish (Oct 18, 2006)

This is in no way an attempt to agree or to dissagree with turning for a hobby vs. turning for production.

My question is about duplicaters. I make pens for a hobby, and because I enjoy it, and I also make a dollar or two from them, but for the most part, my penmaking company is a non-profit organization.

However, suppose I wanted to make a lot of pens, say a 100,of the same type and design faster than making them individually. Would a duplicater speed things up?

I have never used a duplicater, and I don't know how they work, but it just looks like it would be quicker to do it with a duplicater.

Even if you couldn't do the finial fitting and finishing with a duplicater, it seems to me like it would be a quick way to do the roughing.

Bonefish


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## vick (Oct 18, 2006)

> _Originally posted by bonefish_
> <br />
> 
> However, suppose I wanted to make a lot of pens, say a 100,of the same type and design faster than making them individually. Would a duplicater speed things up?



In my limited experience a duplicator does not speed things up.  Most production turners can turn the pen by hand much faster than a duplicator could do. Maybe if you had a duplicator that used a router instead of a HSS cutter you may be able to go faster but I think you would loose time in set up and adjustments of the machine.

personally it is not the speed of turning that I have problems with but more the speed of preping a blank, sanding and finishing.  These are the steps that take me the most time.


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## ed4copies (Oct 18, 2006)

Robert (Bonefish),

Having attempted to make pens with a duplicator, I can say with certainty, it is NOT fast.  The bushings (when new and accurate) are, by far the easiest way to maintain your critical dimensions.  And, when I turn for production it is either the Cigar, the slimline or the "comfort" slimline.  NONE of these have critical dimensions, they are all very tolerant of a couple thousandths.

Sanding time is also reduced if you are using a sharp tool (mine is a skew, but ANY tool can be used, if its sharp).  After you turn the first 2 or 3 hundred of ANY kit, the profile becomes pretty ingrained - no thinking necessary.[][]


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## ed4copies (Oct 18, 2006)

After considerable thought, I have decided to post this.  Remember this is NOT "Show off your pens".  I do not delude myself that this is a work of art.  It is a walnut PEN.  A $15 pen, taken off the lathe at a show.  Yes, I did put a coat of RenWax on it last night before taking the picture.  It was turned, sanded and "finished" in under 5 minutes. The finish is Hut polish, shellac based.  It was sanded to 1000 grit, prior to finish.  All turning with a 3/4" skew at 4000 rpm, sanded 240,320,400,600,1000 at about 1500 rpm.  (Talking to the crowd and watching any pretty girls the entire time!)

Comments ARE welcome!  [][][]


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## bonefish (Oct 18, 2006)

There has been some mention about sanding time.

I don't know what other's use, but I use Wet or Dry Silicon carbide paper, used dry on wood and wet on PR.

Silicon Carbide grit is much harder and sharper than aluminum oxide, and cuts a lot faster.

Starting with 220 grit SC (Silicon Carbide) both round and round then lengthwise, I can sand a pen body very fast. Some times, too fast, because if I use the 220 grit very long, the bushings end up being proud of the wood.

Using fresh and clean 220 grit, used wet, will really eat up PR in a hurry. I start with 220 grit, if the turning is very rough, then go to 400, 600, 800, then to MM.


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## DCBluesman (Oct 18, 2006)

> _Originally posted by ed4copies_
> <br />After considerable thought, I have decided to post this.  Remember this is NOT "Show off your pens".  I do not delude myself that this is a work of art.  It is a walnut PEN.  A $15 pen, taken off the lathe at a show.  Yes, I did put a coat of RenWax on it last night before taking the picture.  It was turned, sanded and "finished" in under 5 minutes. The finish is Hut polish, shellac based.  It was sanded to 1000 grit, prior to finish.  All turning with a 3/4" skew at 4000 rpm, sanded 240,320,400,600,1000 at about 1500 rpm.  (Talking to the crowd and watching any pretty girls the entire time!)I'll give you $20...the extra $5 is for the lesson learned! [8D]
> 
> Comments ARE welcome!  [][][]


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## ed4copies (Oct 18, 2006)

Uh, Lou, you forgot the comment, buddy!!

Watching the girls I missed????????????????!!!!!!!!!![][][][]


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## DCBluesman (Oct 18, 2006)

> _Originally posted by DCBluesman_
> <br />
> 
> 
> ...


Ooopppsss!  I buried it in your original post.

I'll give you $20...the extra $5 is for the lesson learned! [8D] (Regarding the pretty girls!)


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