# triple-start threads tap & die - finished pen pics?



## turbowagon

I am considering the triple start tap & die that has been offered via a group buy a few times in the past.

I'd love to see some photos of pens made using this tap and die.  Anyone have any to share?

Thanks!

- Joe


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## BRobbins629

Take a look at the first 2 pages in my album - most are made with this set.


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## DrPepper8412

I've been considering it too. Where did you find the set?


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## randyrls

There have been several group buys of this set.  They also come up for sale from time to time.  These are NOT a standard item, must be custom made and around $100


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## ldb2000

Take a look at any of the capped pens in my album , they were all made with this set . It was not cheap but was one of the best investments I've made in penmaking . The set cost just over $200 for the tap and die and a tap for the section which I don't use as often since I normally make my own sections instead of using the El Grande sections .


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## turbowagon

Butch, Bruce, or anyone else with experience with this set...

Do you find this tap/die set is a good size for either large (#6) nibs or small (#5) nibs?

I may consider organizing another group buy.

- Joe


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## BRobbins629

turbowagon said:


> Do you find this tap/die set is a good size for either large (#6) nibs or small (#5) nibs?
> 
> 
> - Joe


I have used it with both sizes, most often with the #6 but have made at least 2 or 3 with the smaller nibs which seem to work fine.  Have also used it for several rollerballs using the ElGrande and custom sections.


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## mredburn

What size are you considering?  I just contacted Tapco and should have a quote on either 
1/2 -28  or 12x.75 in triple tap sets. 

Mike


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## turbowagon

Mike,

I was thinking about going with the size ordered in the past:   M12.0 x 0.8P x 2.4L 

Are you thinking about ordering for yourself or organizing a group buy perhaps?  It has been about 2 years since the last group buy and I bet there would be enough interest for another.

- Joe


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## hebertjo

I am very interested in a set. I would like to know what the pros/cons are between the sizes mentioned.

Thanks,


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## mredburn

Im thinking about ordering for myself and stocking some sets. I dont have a set thread size yet but I am using 12x.75 single thread now and like the size. Im not sure what 12x.8 would end up at, 12x.24? or if one is better than the other. I open to all thoughts. Maybe it would be better to be 12x.25 triple start.
Mike

Edit in:    Im waiting on an  email quote from tapco on price. I will see what they say.  Any advise on whether to get a taper, plug, or bottoming tap?


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## BRobbins629

Here's what was ordered for the original group buys.







There is no need for a bottom tap as you can cut the threads a little deep in the cap.  If designed properly, I've been told that the cap should have a stop on the bottom piece so that the furthermost threads are never engaged anyway.  I chose to get plug style which still has some taper.  Since most of the time the threading is in relatively soft materials and should be done on the lathe, I didn't see the need for the extended taper.  All of the above is just my opinion.

This thread size was taken directly off an ElGrande coupling which was sent to the factory at e-taps.com.  Mine's going on 3 years old and still works fine.

Someone once commented that the rake was not ideal for plastic on the group buys.  I'm no machinist, and mine seems to work fine, but you may want to ask the supplier if they can suggest the best rake for the materials you want to thread.


Edit -  Note - We originally copied the ElGrande in case someone still wanted to use one portion of the coupling.  I never did, always used as a set.


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## mredburn

Thanks Bruce


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## soligen

I might be interested - just not sure I can swing the $

I did a lot of measuring while working with a 1/2" tap die for cap threads, andI think a 12mm would be more convienient.  With the 12mm threads, if you want to use a tube, the el-grande tube size should work and have just enough room to make a plastic threaded insert.  I used 1/2" threads and ended up having to use a 9/16 tube, which was a bit larger than I wanted.  By eye on a pen 1/2 vs 12mm is likely not a noticable difference at the threads, but I could not get the cap down where I wanted it becasue the 1/2 made me use a bigger tube.

Obviously if you dont use a tube  it's less an issue, but I didn't want to trust my PR blanks without a tube.  I have on occasion dropped a PR blank (unturned) and had it break.


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## aggromere

If someone gets a group buy together, I would love to get a set.  Really don't know what size I want, just whatever the powers that be decide is the best for making medium sized pens.  Keep me posted.  thanks.


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## studioso

I'm probably interested myself, if a group buy happens. 
But I'm still trying to wrap my head around threading. 

I have read some articles but Im still somewhat confused. And nowhere did I find mention of a multistart ? What is that?


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## azamiryou

studioso said:


> And nowhere did I find mention of a multistart ? What is that?



A single start thread has a single ridge that goes around and around. If there are 2 starts, there are two threads interleaved. Many kit pens have 3 or 4 starts for the cap.

For pen caps, the number of starts determines how many different positions the cap can end up in when the pen is closed. For example, a pen with 4-start threads for the cap allows the cap to be in 4 different closed positions (90 degrees apart).


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## lwalden

I'm interested in a set if this gets enough momentum going..........


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## wizard

Joe, I'd be interested in getting a set also. Regards, Doc


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## turbowagon

Are there any disadvantages to a TAPER version of the tap?  Is it more expensive?  Because generally, there should be plenty of room inside the cap for excess partial threads, correct?

The TAPER version would have the benefit of putting less stress on the material while tapping, but what are the disadvantages, specifically in the case of tapping cap threads?


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## Timebandit

Im down for a set.


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## Russianwolf

turbowagon said:


> Are there any disadvantages to a TAPER version of the tap?  Is it more expensive?  Because generally, there should be plenty of room inside the cap for excess partial threads, correct?
> 
> The TAPER version would have the benefit of putting less stress on the material while tapping, but what are the disadvantages, specifically in the case of tapping cap threads?



if you use a translucent material, you will be able to see a lot of threads.


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## turbowagon

Russianwolf said:


> if you use a translucent material, you will be able to see a lot of threads.



Good point!


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## MarkD

I may be interested in a set also.


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## turbowagon

I posted a feeler thread in the Group Purchases forum.  Please respond there if you are interested!

http://www.penturners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=76223


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## mredburn

A tapered tap has a longer slope leading up to the full diameter of the threads bieng cut. You will have more partially cut threads in the back. If the hole your tapping in not deep or runs into a shoulder you may not get enough threads tapped in the hole. Normally we dont have that problem but it can be. I dont believe there is a cost difference but I will ask. THe cost is all in the cutting the custom diameters and the set up.


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## BRobbins629

Regarding the taper, in my experience I've cracked more blanks using the die than the tap.  You can cut the internal threads on the cap when there is still considerable material there before turning.  When using the die, if you have alread bored the hole and cut the threads for the section, there is a whole lot less wall thinkness.  I normally use an insert to add stability when using the die but the risk is still greater with the die than the tap.


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## studioso

does'n it make then more sense to start with a taper and follow with a bottoming one?


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## turbowagon

BRobbins629 said:


> Regarding the taper, in my experience I've cracked more blanks using the die than the tap.  You can cut the internal threads on the cap when there is still considerable material there before turning.  When using the die, if you have alread bored the hole and cut the threads for the section, there is a whole lot less wall thinkness.  I normally use an insert to add stability when using the die but the risk is still greater with the die than the tap.



Great info, Bruce!  Sounds like PLUG is the way to go for an all-purpose solution.



studioso said:


> does'n it make then more sense to start with a taper and follow with a bottoming one?



Yes, if taps grew on trees!  :biggrin:


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## turbowagon

Anyone have thoughts on the desired "class of fit" or "tolerance" that works best for our application?

Here is some overwhelming info here:

http://www.boltscience.com/pages/screw8.htm


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## skiprat

Regarding the Taper.....if you can only afford one tap, then go for the taper. If you have money to burn then get the taper and the bottoming tap. Don't forget you will need tool holders too:wink:

If you can see the threads through the material, then you are gonna have one ugly pen:redface:

However....before you spend a fair bit of money on multi start taps and dies, ask yourself why. 

Is it because 'Kits' have them?
Is it because you believe that all the best pens must have them?
It's tradition?

I actually really dislike multi start threads in anything but hard metal. Because of the helix angle of a multi start vs single start thread, you have to tighten it much more to stop the damned cap coming off in your pocket. Single threads rule, in my book, and I've even got a metal lathe to churn out multi threads as easy as single ones.
So now you want to put multi threads in wood or plastic? 
Good luck!!! Just don't use your favourite material until you can do it with your eyes closed.:wink::biggrin:


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## turbowagon

skiprat said:


> However....before you spend a fair bit of money on multi start taps and dies, ask yourself why.
> 
> Is it because 'Kits' have them?
> Is it because you believe that all the best pens must have them?
> It's tradition?



I'd like to be able to make pens with both single-start and multi-start threads.  I've specifically had customers request a cap that requires a small number of turns to close.  Lastly, I was influenced by Butch's feedback on the multi-start tap and die set:



			
				ldb2000 said:
			
		

> Take a look at any of the capped pens in my album , they were all made with this set . It was not cheap but was one of the best investments I've made in penmaking . The set cost just over $200 for the tap and die and a tap for the section which I don't use as often since I normally make my own sections instead of using the El Grande sections.





			
				ldb2000 said:
			
		

> You can use regular single start taps and dies to make caps and body threads but these type of threads require more turns to cap and uncap the pen and personally I don't like the look or feel of them (the threads are too big and feel very rough to the touch.





			
				ldb2000 said:
			
		

> I have to disagree about the lack of need for multi start threads . The amount of turns to cap a pen is only one of the reasons for using multi start threading . I have made several pens with single start threading and found them to be unacceptable for sale for reasons related to strength and aesthetics . There is a reason that almost all of the major pen companies use multi start threading . Strength is very important in the threading of the cap and for a single start thread to be strong enough to stand up to years of use , you have to have as many threads in contact as you possibly can to spread out the stresses that the joint is subjected to . It has been said that just 3 threads are needed for a strong threaded connection but after allot of experimentation I have found that 3 threads will not stand up to the stresses of a pen cap and the joint will fail , in most cases the cap cracked . This means in general at least 8 to 12 threads for a normal acrylic pen cap . That many turns to tighten the cap would be totally unacceptable , I normally try to have at least 9 threads in contact on my pens made of acrylic to provide a strong joint . This is easily accomplished with just 3 turns of a triple start thread .
> The other reason , aesthetics , is just as important . A strong single start threaded joint just looks and feels fugly . The large size of the threads feels very rough and uncomfortable for long writing sessions . Threads of that size also break up the flow of well made pen and distract the eye from the look of the rest of the pen .


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## skiprat

Joe, fair enough on those thoughts. 

Now Butch is a freind and I respect his opinions too, but a thread with a pitch of say .75mm ( or any other pitch for that matter ) is no rougher or smoother or courser irrespective of how many threads there are on it.
0.75 is 0.75 whether on a single thread or a hundred start thread. 

The only 'visible' difference between a 1, 2, 3 etc start thread is the angle of the thread. 

The original purpose of multi threads 'may' have been to ensure that there were enough threads engaged to offer long term mechanical support, but remember that modern plastics are a far cry from the old brittle Bakelite and other old plastics that they had back then. 
I really don't know if wood was ever threaded by the big boys. I doubt it.

But hey, we are all different:biggrin:


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## turbowagon

Thanks, Steven.  I certainly value your feedback as well.  And I plan to experiment with both types of threads and judge for myself which works best for me.

- Joe


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## mredburn

The first quote I recieved was for the tap only and I have request an updated quote for both the tap and die. The quote was for a 3 lead tap with 4 flutes.  How do you start 3 threads 60 degrees apart on 4 flutes at 90 degrees?


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## studioso

mredburn said:


> The first quote I recieved was for the tap only and I have request an updated quote for both the tap and die. The quote was for a 3 lead tap with 4 flutes.  How do you start 3 threads 60 degrees apart on 4 flutes at 90 degrees?


im assuming that flutes are just the cut-outs that allow the chips to get expelled. the spaces perpendicolar to the material being cut. is it so?

if the flutes are at 12, 3, 6 and 9 o'clock, the leads can be at 1, 5, and 9. no wait, 2, 6...

well, I guess that's why they are so expensive!


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## skiprat

More flutes is good. Straight flutes are fine but if you can get spiral flutes without paying more then those are even better still.


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## mredburn

first quote plug tap only just to give you an Idea


The following is our quotation:


Our P/N 31175

M12-.75 3LD D5 4 Flute Plug Tap

(1) qty. $152.90 each

(2) qty. $117.15 each

(3-5) qty. $87.89 each

(6-8) qty. $65.67 each

(9-11) qty. $53.68 each

(12-23) qty. $46.42 each

(24 + qty. $41.36 each

Delivery: 3-4 workdays to manufacture

_______________________________________________
I suspect they start all the threads all on the same flute just spaced down along the flute/


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## BRobbins629

For those interested, here's some pictures of the 3 start tap from the first group buy after 3 years use.


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## studioso

how appropriate!
just got this in the mail:







I guess there is no turning back!

I have practically no experience tapping. I have done a few times some in aluminum, just enough of a taste that it's not as simple as plunging a drill.

now, please tell me that the dies we are discussing here will fit it my new shop addition...


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## turbowagon

I got a similar quote for the 0.8 pitch, though they quoted me for a bottoming tap for some reason:

Our P/N 31178

M12.0 x 0.8P x 2.4L triple start Bottoming Tap,Standard Class 6H, 4 Flute

1 pc price = $152.90 each

2 pc price = $117.15 each

3 pc price = $87.89 each

6 pc price = $65.67 each

9 pc price = $53.68 each

12 pc price = $46.42 each

24 pc price = $41.36 each

Delivery: 3-4 workdays to manufacture


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## skiprat

Alex, did your die holder come with only one diameter capability?
Here's a pic of mine which can take 4 different diameter dies. 

For those that go ahead and get these taps and dies please heed my advice and get a taper tap and a split die. :wink:

I also added a pic of my own 3 start tap that I made from stainless steel. 
I simply threaded a rod on my lathe and formed the tap from a section of the threaded rod. The threaded rod 'was' going to be for couplers and the tap for matching threads in the cap. But I don't use them anymore


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## Russianwolf

skiprat said:


> Alex, did your die holder come with only one diameter capability?
> Here's a pic of mine which can take 4 different diameter dies.
> 
> For those that go ahead and get these taps and dies please heed my advice and get a taper tap and a split die. :wink:
> 
> I also added a pic of my own 3 start tap that I made from stainless steel.
> I simply threaded a rod on my lathe and formed the tap from a section of the threaded rod. The threaded rod 'was' going to be for couplers and the tap for matching threads in the cap. But I don't use them anymore



okay Skippy, give.

If you aren't using your homemade stuff any longer, what are you using now, other than kits?


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## skiprat

Still homemade Joe, just all single thread:biggrin:


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## studioso

this is all I got, it holds 13/16" and 1" dies: one size per end.
I don't know how to use them, but you just wait, before you know it we will have to move this post from "advanced penturning" to just "penturning"!!!


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## chugbug

Hi Guys, Mike at Silverpenparts.com tipped me off on the attempt to get an order together on the triple tap & die. If you can get enought (now or later), you can put me on the list!

Not that it matters, but what size (OD) would the die be (standard 1 1/2" round)?

Let me know if I need to contact anyone with my contact information separately.

Thanks...John


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## turbowagon

John,

Here is the link to the group buy thread.  The Die will be 1" diameter.  The group buy is open until next Thursday.  All relevant info is in the thread here:

http://www.penturners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=76280


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## Texatdurango

turbowagon said:


> I am considering the triple start tap & die that has been offered via a group buy a few times in the past.
> 
> *I'd love to see some photos of pens made using this tap and die*. Anyone have any to share?
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> - Joe


 
Ask and you shall receive!  Here's a pen I made last week that has the triple multi-start threads

http://www.penturners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=76318


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## chugbug

Sorry, I thought I had the right one.

Thanks..John


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## manatee

Alex,  I have that same set and it is easy to use.  Jose Rodrigues has a dvd that show how to tap on the metal lathe. I just got his dvd on the Milling Machine and it is great!


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## turbowagon

chugbug said:


> Sorry, I thought I had the right one.
> 
> Thanks..John



That's a beautiful pen, John!

For pens like this with a distinct pattern, do you have a technique for aligning the pattern when the threaded parts are screwed together?


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