# General Wood Turner's Finish (yes... again)



## NotURMailman (Nov 5, 2012)

I hate to beat the dead horse, but...

I have done several searches on this forum and have only found 3 threads in the finishing section with "Wood Turner's Finish" in the title. Other threads pop up where it is mentioned brielfy, but they all take a sharp turn and go to lacquer, CA, BLO/CA, or something else.

So, here is what I'm trying to find out:

1. Long term usage results; input from someone who has been usnig it for a while.

2. Sealer (not CA). The question has come up, but the only real responses I have seen are thin CA and Enduro-Var. I'm trying to avoid CA and would like to hear more about E-V, how is it applied and how long to cure before applying WTF, do you sand after the E-V before the WTF? What about regular old sanding sealer? I saw mention of using BLO to seal before applying WTF, but the same questions come to mind (application, dry time, sanding?).

3. Has anyone tried application with an airbrush? I have seen some people say to thin it with water, to spray with an air bursh, others say it needs no thinning.

4. Finishing after curing. The consensus seems to be to let cure for 24 hours. Can it atleast be handled after drying (remove from lathe and take in the house to cure)? Can it be as simple as wet sandin with all 9 MicroMesh pads and polishing with Hut Plastic Polish?

I'm just not a fan of CA. It makes the wood feel "plasticy" and I don't like that. It also seems to me to be very inconsistent. I had finally come up with two CA finishes that I was happy with and one of them developed clouding three days later (I realize this may be due to oily blackwood). The Hut Crystal Coat just doesn't shine as much as I would like and deosn't seem to take very well at all to multiple coats (seems like trying to recoat just removes the undercoat).

So, I am hoping for a glossy finish that will leave some warmth to the wood and not take forever to apply. But, I don't want to keep spending money buying different finishing producst that I won't continue using. And I was really just hoping for some application tips.

I realize everyone has their own methods, so just tell me what works for you and I'll see if it works for me.

BTW- what I do alreay have; CA (thin, thick, and medium), mineral oil, BLO, Hut Cryatsl Coat, Hut Plastic polish, MicroMesh pads, sand paper from 80 to 2000 grit, automotive wet.dry 220 grit sand paper... (I think that's it)

PHEWW.... sorry to be so long winded! Can you tell I'm getting frustrated looking for a finish I will actually like?


----------



## ed4copies (Nov 5, 2012)

Have you looked here:
Pen finishing.mp4 - YouTube


----------



## NotURMailman (Nov 5, 2012)

ed4copies said:


> Have you looked here:
> Pen finishing.mp4 - YouTube


 

I'll try that when I get home... YouTube blocked at work.

I was hoping for more of a written response, especially to answer some of my specific questions. For some reason I'm not a big YouTube video tutorial fan unless I'm having issues with my methodology, most of them don't give a lot of details and you never really know about elapsed time unless it is stated.

But, thank you! I WILL watch that once I get to the house (If I can keep myself at the computer and not go to the lathe... LOL)


----------



## scotian12 (Nov 5, 2012)

Hi Les....I.can't answer all your questions but will work on the sealer one. I tried the WTF about a month ago as I wanted something quick. I was using open grained oak and applied three coats. It tended to fill the grain which is a good thing. It also gave a glossy finish. I suspect if I had applied 10-15 coats I would have built up a high gloss finish much like ca which I did not want. Around that time the question of applying a sealer came up and I deceided to do that. I was pleasantly surprised with the results. It darkened the oak and made it look better when the WTF was applied. In the end I deceided it was no quicker for me than applying the Lee Valley wood turners polish. Just one persons experience in using this product. There is no one perfect finish so you will have to make a comprise .I would be interested in the comments of anyone that has seen long term usage of this product.   Darrell


----------



## Rob73 (Nov 5, 2012)

I still have not found a finish that's my 'go to' finish.  I've tried a lot.. guess now I'm going to have to try this... Thanks Ed ;p

P.S. What is WTF?  When I see that's it not a finish that pops in my head lol


----------



## NotURMailman (Nov 5, 2012)

scotian12 said:


> Hi Les....I.can't answer all your questions but will work on the sealer one. I tried the WTF about a month ago as I wanted something quick. I was using open grained oak and applied three coats. It tended to fill the grain which is a good thing. It also gave a glossy finish. I suspect if I had applied 10-15 coats I would have built up a high gloss finish much like ca which I did not want. Around that time the question of applying a sealer came up and I deceided to do that. I was pleasantly surprised with the results. It darkened the oak and made it look better when the WTF was applied. In the end I deceided it was no quicker for me than applying the Lee Valley wood turners polish. Just one persons experience in using this product. There is no one perfect finish so you will have to make a comprise .I would be interested in the comments of anyone that has seen long term usage of this product. Darrell


 

What did you use as a sealer?

How did you finish the WTF after curing?


----------



## SteveJ (Nov 5, 2012)

WTF=Wood Turners Finish

I have used this on an order for 20 BOW pens.  Not being very patient I have put about 7 coats on each blank, waited a few minutes and then sanded through the MicroMesh stages.  This has left a nice matte finish.  The final four that I have yet to complete, I have let rest for a couple of days and plan on buffing them in the next couple of days.  I will show the results when I am finished.

I find it way easier to get a consistent finish than with CA.  It doesn't have the same odor issues.  It takes about 10 minutes to complete the process (before buffing).  You can take the blanks off the lathe and store them for buffing later.  

I've used both a generic sanding sealer and BLO.  I haven't waited long before applying the WTF (not even 5 minutes).  

I've haven't had to strip down WTF because it looked bad, chipped or gotten hazy.  Ed's video will help with some of the specifics on times and such.  It is on his recommendation that I have chosen to actually wait a few days before final buffing of the next few.

Steve


----------



## The Penguin (Nov 5, 2012)

Rob73 said:


> I still have not found a finish that's my 'go to' finish.  I've tried a lot.. guess now I'm going to have to try this... Thanks Ed ;p
> 
> P.S. What is WTF?  When I see that's it not a finish that pops in my head lol



WTF = Wood Turner's Finish

also What The F? (but not on this forum, and it throws me off every time I see it. :biggrin


----------



## NotURMailman (Nov 5, 2012)

Thanks everybody! Keep it coming...

No body using an airbrush? I was thinking it would lay down smoother and reduce waste... (plus I have an unused air brush in my closet)


----------



## ed4copies (Nov 5, 2012)

An airbrush might be fun!!

But when the project is over, you have to clean the airbrush---not so much fun!

A sponge does NOT look "cool"!
When the project is over, I throw away the sponge--

Just a FWIW!

Ed


----------



## NotURMailman (Nov 5, 2012)

So using the recomended makeup sponge won't last very long (re-used on multiple projects)?

Not sure about the air brush clean up since I haven't used it yet. I was considering one of the $39 ultra sonic cleaners from HF for my MM pads, that may work for the air brush parts to (after flushing it with water).


----------



## ed4copies (Nov 5, 2012)

My sponges come straight from the "Anything in the store is $1" store.  I get a package of 8 or 10.  Then I cut them in half or quarters, when I use them.  So, "cleaning" is not a word I use---"pitching" is more attractive---to ME!!  

So, no it does not require a special sponge and no, I have not tried to rinse one out and use it later for anything.


----------



## SteveJ (Nov 5, 2012)

I tried rinsing out a thick rag that I was using - it doesn't rinse out very well and didn't seem worth the cost savings as compared to the time wasted cleaning the rag.  But then I would never clean out a paint roller even when I was painting professionally.  Just too much time for a small savings.


----------



## scotian12 (Nov 5, 2012)

I used the Briwax shellac sanding sealer but I suppose other sealers would work also. I applied the WTF with a sponge and did rinse it out and reuse with no problem. But Ed is right....get some of the grocery store sponges and cut them into strips, use and then toss.   Darrell


----------



## CharlesJohnson (Nov 5, 2012)

I use the air brush for ornaments.Rinse out the jar and spray water through the air brush for several seconds.Works real good for me.I have not tryed pen barrels.Seems like such a small progect to spray.I should have.That is what this, our favorate site,is about.


----------



## BRobbins629 (Nov 5, 2012)

I have used WTF with and without airbrush.  When I used the airbrush, I diluted by 50% with water as directed  and it worked fine.  The reason for the airbrush was that the piece was textured.  Clean up with water spraying through the brush was very easy.

Only down side for me is that being a water base, I can't leave it in my shop during winter months when it may freeze.  Need a little more experience before I call it my go to finish, but so far I am pleased.


----------



## NotURMailman (Nov 5, 2012)

BRobbins629 said:


> I have used WTF with and without airbrush. When I used the airbrush, I diluted by 50% with water as directed and it worked fine. The reason for the airbrush was that the piece was textured. Clean up with water spraying through the brush was very easy.
> 
> Only down side for me is that being a water base, I can't leave it in my shop during winter months when it may freeze. Need a little more experience before I call it my go to finish, but so far I am pleased.


 

Did you use anything to seal the wood prior to applying the WTF?

How many coats did you apply?

How long between coats?

How long did you let it cure before finishing?

How did you finish?

I was thinking MicroMesh followed by Hut plastic polish after a 24hr cure...


----------



## The Penguin (Nov 5, 2012)

I've got a small natural edge bowl that I'm going to be finishing up in the next few weeks.

I used WTF on the inside and outside and have buffed it using a Beall buffing system.

so far it looks very nice. I did not use any sealer on it. I need to reverse the bowl to turn off the tenon. When I finish, I'll post a pic.


----------



## BRobbins629 (Nov 5, 2012)

See below


NotURMailman said:


> BRobbins629 said:
> 
> 
> > I have used WTF with and without airbrush. When I used the airbrush, I diluted by 50% with water as directed and it worked fine. The reason for the airbrush was that the piece was textured. Clean up with water spraying through the brush was very easy.
> ...


----------



## John Den (Nov 5, 2012)

*Yes I've used an Airbrush quite a lot!*

I've used an airbrush quite a lot and found that Melamine Lacquer thinned 50:50 with Cellulose thinners works very well. It gives a super shiny finish, with not quite the depth of polish or grain enhancement that I get with proper french polish applied in the traditional method , off the lathe, with a polisher's rubber.
The finish you get with melamine, however is very good indeed and survives the test of time brilliantly. A  slimline I made over 10 years ago still shines like a good 'en  - yes its got its fair share of dents but has not separated or chipped as other finishes I've tried have. (See the couple of pictures below taken tonight)

I usually give the pens between 12 and 16 coats, leaving each coat about 10 minutes to flash off and "de-nibbing" every 3 or 4 coats   and the penultimate coat (after 1/2 an hour) using micromesh just to get rid of any settled dust!
The last coat settles down to its final finish over night and usually is great without any further work.

Regards,
John


----------



## NotURMailman (Nov 5, 2012)

John Den said:


> I've used an airbrush quite a lot and found that Melamine Lacquer thinned 50:50 with Cellulose thinners works very well. It gives a super shiny finish, with not quite the depth of polish or grain enhancement that I get with proper french polish applied in the traditional method , off the lathe, with a polisher's rubber.
> The finish you get with melamine, however is very good indeed and survives the test of time brilliantly. A slimline I made over 10 years ago still shines like a good 'en - yes its got its fair share of dents but has not separated or chipped as other finishes I've tried have. (See the couple of pictures below taken tonight)
> 
> I usually give the pens between 12 and 16 coats, leaving each coat about 10 minutes to flash off and "de-nibbing" every 3 or 4 coats and the penultimate coat (after 1/2 an hour) using micromesh just to get rid of any settled dust!
> ...


 

I'll go ahead and expose my ignorance, but what do you mean by the text in red above?


----------



## CharlesJohnson (Nov 5, 2012)

On cleaning MM.I wet mm my pen blanks.When my pads have gotten dirty_ I dust them off good and go ahead and use them.With all that water they come clean vey easy._


----------



## Rob73 (Nov 5, 2012)

The Penguin said:


> WTF = Wood Turner's Finish



Doh! I should of been able to figure that out lol.


----------



## raar25 (Nov 6, 2012)

I use minwax water based sanding sealer before WTF 2-coats. I get an almost CA gloss finish after 10 coats of WTF.  The wtf kicks off from the friction on the lathe so I have almost no wait time and I stop to sand lightly with 0000 steel wool every 3-5 coats depending on the roughness.

The first item I finished was a salad bowl which has been in use not for a year and still looks like the day it came off the lathe.


----------



## NotURMailman (Nov 6, 2012)

Thank you for all of the input!

 I have been busy and it has kept me from my lathe, other than to make two Christmas ornaments and repair a pen for a co-worker. But, I did just place an order with EB for some pen kits, a few blanks, and some WTF. So... we'll see how my luck is with it.

I meant to order a long tube click pen kit juts t try out, but I forgot and I'm not placing another order for one pen kit and paying shipping on that too. It can wait until the next time I order.


----------



## yaroslaw (Nov 8, 2012)

Okay, I've been little more successful with WTF last 10 pens (my UK ordered CA went to zero... so I had to. It was me asking question about WTF last time)))

So... 
a) I seal the wood with some oil paint product, which is mix of damar lacquer, prepolimerized linseed oil and turpentine. I apply it now after 1500 grid of usual paper on wood, then rub it off on high-speed (as friction polish) to help it cure fast. Then 1hr to 10 minutes and applying WTF

b) I found it is crucial to get RIGHT amount of WTF on the sponge. If too much - it leaves ridges and slow cures, if too little - destroys previous coat or two.

c) I would not use WATER in micromeshing it. It destroys finish if not cured completely. Sometimes I just use highest grit (which is 1500) that I have dry and a light touch. If there were some ridges, I use a drop of linseed oil as a lubricant (do not forget to clean paper or micromesh with soap and water afterwards!!!).
This way it can be worked 10-20min afterwards, though if I have time I wait overnight. Then - light buff with white diamond (the only I have. Car plastic polish that I have destroy WTF in just a seconds (water based, yes!).

I found out that WTF can leave "structured surface" if you do not seal the pores with CA/dust, which I like a lot!


----------



## Jim Burr (Nov 8, 2012)

I shoot WTF through a Paasche air brush. Will be shooting it on pens next week. On small stuff...soap and water clean-up and it's good as new. It dries in about 30 seconds...YMMV!!!


----------



## TerryDowning (Nov 8, 2012)

yaroslaw said:


> I found out that WTF can leave "structured surface" if you do not seal the pores with CA/dust, which I like a lot!



Since WTF is water based, it will "raise the grain" of unsealed wood. 

Option 1: use a sealer BLO, sanding sealer, etc.

Option 2: "Raise the grain" on the blank with a bit of water on a sponge and let it sit for bit to raise the grain up then sand smooth to final dimensions and then continue on with applying WTF. "Raising the grain" is an age old finishing technique I first learned 30 plus years ago.


----------



## KenV (Nov 8, 2012)

I have added wood turners funish to the mix of stuff I use.  

Some points ---

"Sanding Sealer" can be a noun, describing a commercial product sold to be an undercoat,  OR it can be a process step to describe a first coat of finishing material before additional finishing steps that generally include sanding.

For example, using shellac as a sanding sealer is describing a process step.

I just completed some bird house ornaments with Wood Turners Finish applied as the first coat after abrasives to P800.  It did not noticably raise the grain, but did make a few spots visible where i needed to remove some sanding swirl that I missed.  I do use power sanding up to P1200 on a lot of things including pens.


I have had very good history with the now General Finishes acrylic hard finishes.  The Wood Turners finish -so far - is falling into that pattern.

Using it as a friction polish with a small piece of flannel, I apply several costs, let it sit for a couple of days and polish the finish with Barry Gross Blue Rouge.


Why a couple od days  --  experience suggests that the finish cross links better with time and it is harder when I buff and I get better outcomes with acrylic finishes.


----------



## yaroslaw (Nov 10, 2012)

TerryDowning said:


> yaroslaw said:
> 
> 
> > I found out that WTF can leave "structured surface" if you do not seal the pores with CA/dust, which I like a lot!
> ...



Haven't seen "raising grain" problems on my pens ever. I mean that if surface of pen isn't straight, for example with sanding pores off, it leaves surface that way, as CA just cover everything and make glass-like surface (which I like on some pens and dislike on others).


----------



## ghostrider (Nov 11, 2012)

I've used it only once so far, and it was a two barrel pen, so I tried a different method with each barre.

The first barrel had 10-12 coats from a sponge as Ed proscribes in his video. The second one was the same except that I cut it with a little water. 

After letting them sit for probably a week (no particular reason to wait that long. It just took me that long to get back to it.) I sanded with 2000 grit wet sandpaper, and then buffed with Tripoli, white diamond, and carnuba wax. 

The barrel done with Ed's method looks great. The other one wore through the finish while sanding, and is waiting for a re-finish. 

BTW:

I called General Finishes and asked them about a sealer coat as I hadn't seen anything and was doing some oily wood. They said to not use any sanding sealer and apply directly to the wood regardless of what wood I was finishing.


----------



## NotURMailman (Nov 13, 2012)

I tried it for the first time last night. Cleaned the blank with DNA (Bocote).Sanded the blank to 1200. Sealed with BLO. Three coats of WTF, wpied on with a Scott blue shop paper towell, 30 minutes between coats. Polished with Hut plasstic polish after one hour. Top coat of Hut Crystal Coat. Thirty minutes later waxed with Johnson's paste wax. I like it! Wish it didn't take so long to dry. The bottle says 30 minutes, any way to speed that up? I like the level of gloss and the fact that you can feel the wood.


----------



## nativewooder (Nov 13, 2012)

Woodturners Finish is a relatively new product so you probably won't find anything on long-term durability.  Don't know much about the other products but I thing your best source of info would be through the Manufacturers finish forums.


----------



## ghostrider (Nov 14, 2012)

watch Ed's video on Exotic Blanks. He recommends waiting a few days for it to cure before putting the final buff on it.


----------



## Rob73 (Nov 14, 2012)

Ordered mine yesterday, can't wait till see how well it works.


----------



## ed4copies (Nov 14, 2012)

Woodturner's Finish is relatively new (6 months-ish).

However, the gentleman from General Finishes who came to an IAP meeting in Milwaukee to demonstrate the product told us it is a reformulation of a floor finish that they have sold for years.  To make it "turner friendly", it "dries" more quickly, so you can put several coats on in a short time frame.

As a floor finish, I think we can assume it will be durable.

As for the length of time to wait---that is my own "conservative recommendation"!

One other thing:  I did call General Finishes about sanding sealer.  They do NOT recommend using the Woodturners Finish over BLO or any other "oil based priming agent".  

They have a water-based sealer that they suggest IF you MUST have a sealer. (their approximate words)


----------



## islandturner (Nov 14, 2012)

_"They have a water-based sealer that they suggest IF you MUST have a sealer. (their approximate words)"_

Here it is at Lee Valley with a good description....


----------



## John Den (Nov 14, 2012)

.........................
 I usually give the pens between 12 and 16 coats, leaving each coat about 10 minutes to flash off and "de-nibbing" every 3 or 4 coats and the penultimate coat (after 1/2 an hour) using micromesh just to get rid of any settled dust!
The last coat settles down to its final finish over night and usually is great without any further work.

Regards, 
John[/quote]


I'll go ahead and expose my ignorance, but what do you mean by the text in red above?[/quote] 
 
De-nibbing is the term used by French Polishers to lightly rub down the dried finish to get rid of any settled dust that shouldn't, but always seems to, settle on the work. It produces the sticking up bits (nibs) captured under the next spray of Lacquer. I do this after about every four coats just to remove the trapped dust and generally smooth the coats down level. The last coat hopefully is left in its unsanded  state.
Hope this helps - sorry it took so long to reply!
Regards
John


----------

