# Getting geared up



## dozuki (Jan 22, 2017)

I think I have almost everything I am going to need to step into the kitless pen making world.  I have several sets of taps and dies, collet chuck, chuck for rounding square blanks, nib sections and am ordering drills.  

My question is are there special drills.  I have been looking all over the net and it sounds like at least a few of the bits will be a little larger than needed.  Like the 9X.75 works out to be a 8.25.  So I am rounding up to 8.5mm.  I just want to make sure that is how it works and I wont be getting drills that are just to big. 

Thanks for the help.  if anyone has any suggestions on tools that will make the process smoother I am open to suggestion.


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## skiprat (Jan 22, 2017)

Dozuki, please don't be offended, but you can have all the tools in the world but your most valuable asset will always be your imagination. 

Your imagination will guide you into making wonderful creations just with the barest minimum of tools.  It will also guide you on using the tools you already have. 

You have one 'Friend' ( in your Profile) on IAP. Si90 is gifted with an extraordinary imagination that most of us can only dream about.  
His amazing art is probably made up of 5% tooling, 5% material and 90% imagination. You cannot buy your way into making stuff like he does.

Sure, fancy tooling may help. But you don't need it. :wink:
:biggrin:


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## More4dan (Jan 22, 2017)

For drill bits you might want to look at a set of numbered and letter sized bits that will give you sizes very close to what you will need. This is especially important for the front section where the nib feed assembly attaches. 

I've think the kitless pens I've made have been Much more challenging but also fulfilling to make.  You'll likely get more negative feedback at first than turning out a kit and that's ok. Look to listen and learn from others. I look forward to seeing your work as it progresses.  


Sent from my iPhone using Penturners.org mobile app


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## stonepecker (Jan 22, 2017)

Happy for you and your desire to expand your skill.

Great place to show that (and learn what others think) is just 10 days away.
Enter the BASH CONTESTS and see what others are doing.

I look forward in seeing your creations.
Best wishes


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## Curly (Jan 22, 2017)

dozuki said:


> Like the 9X.75 works out to be a 8.25.  So I am rounding up to 8.5mm.  I just want to make sure that is how it works and I wont be getting drills that are just to big.



I wouldn't round up so much. In your example I would only round up to 8.3mm or 8.35mm at the most. On those small fine threads a .25mm is a big jump up and will make for a loose fit that wouldn't make a difference if you were cutting a 14mm thread. Something you will have to play with to get a feel for. Since you are ordering the bits adding a 0.1mm and 0.2 bigger than the recommended one will show what a difference it makes.


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## dozuki (Jan 23, 2017)

Thank you all for your advice and your encouragement.  I really am looking foreword to the challenge.  The pens you guys make are just so inspiring.
Skiprat-Ha you can't offend me I've been married for 26 years. Just kidding, don't tell the wife.  I do understand that no tool can produce anything its just a tool its the craftsman behind the tool that makes all the difference.  I will try to start a thread where I can post my successes and failures.  I think there might be more of the latter than the former.  I will just look at each setback as an opportunity to learn.  Thanks again.


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## thewishman (Jan 23, 2017)

dozuki said:


> Like the 9X.75 works out to be a 8.25.  So I am rounding up to 8.5mm.  I just want to make sure that is how it works and I wont be getting drills that are just to big.



8.25mm = 0.3248"

Letter P bit = .3230"

21/64 bit = .3261"


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## ldb2000 (Jan 23, 2017)

+1 for what Skippy said , but imagination is only another tool for improving your skill . Tools are just a means to improving your skill and while imagination is important , there are many examples of what to build already posted here on the IAP and the net in general . The most important thing is to TRY ! Attitude is the most important factor in accomplishing your goals . If you say I could never make one of Skippys creations , you never will ! look at what you want to do and try to figure out how it was done or what you could do to improve on it safely using the tools you have on hand already .
I know there will be several on here that will disagree with this but HF has a set of 115 drill bits in an indexed case that will cover almost any sized hole you will ever need to drill . Are they the best ? no , will they work and give you good service for the money ? yes .
Now get out to your shop and build some of YOUR own pens .


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## duncsuss (Jan 23, 2017)

Unless you're using a metal lathe, I'd advise buying the correct size drill bits and not "rounding up" if you can possibly avoid it. I bought 8.25mm and 11.3mm from Victornet (they didn't have 11.25mm when I bought, they might now.)

Why?

Let's say you are tapping metric threads at 0.75 pitch, and your lathe tailstock has a tiny misalignment (like pretty much all woodlathes do). When you drill, that misalignment is doubled. The total thread height is only 29.5 thou to begin with ... you don't need to ask how I know that it's really easy to drill a hole that's too big to tap.


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## Flush1974 (Jan 23, 2017)

duncsuss said:


> Unless you're using a metal lathe, I'd advise buying the correct size drill bits and not "rounding up" if you can possibly avoid it. I bought 8.25mm and 11.3mm from Victornet (they didn't have 11.25mm when I bought, they might now.)
> 
> Why?
> 
> Let's say you are tapping metric threads at 0.75 pitch, and your lathe tailstock has a tiny misalignment (like pretty much all woodlathes do). When you drill, that misalignment is doubled. The total thread height is only 29.5 thou to begin with ... you don't need to ask how I know that it's really easy to drill a hole that's too big to tap.





In order to produce good fitting kitless pens will I need to purchase a metal lathe?


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## duncsuss (Jan 23, 2017)

Flush1974 said:


> In order to produce good fitting kitless pens will I need to purchase a metal lathe?



No, but if you're using a wood lathe you'll need to get the tailstock and headstock aligned well.

I use a Nova "Acruline" (double-ended Morse taper). It's very quick and easy with my lathe -- loosen the headstock clamp, loosen the tailstock alignment plate, slip the Acruline in, and tighten everything up again. Two or three minutes max.

(My lathe is a Nova 1624, with rotating headstock, which lets me loosen everything easily.)


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## Maverick KB (Jan 23, 2017)

When you start cutting your threads you're going to want to do a good bit of research on all the measurements. Often in "kitless" pens you'll need to cut external threads on a piece directly above where you cut internal threads. Knowing how deep the threads will cut and how tall they should be will often make the difference between a functional pen part and a miniature slinky. (yes, that's experience talking) Of course, trial and error works great too, just be sure to make a log of what you do so you can reference what works and what doesn't later on. 

Google is your friend. figure out what your dimensions are for the thread you're cutting, what the minimum and maximum depths are. You'll also find some interesting differences about what size to drill the hole actually depends on the materials you use. Some need a bigger crest flat for friction or expansion. Other applications may need a smaller crest flat for contraction. Some materials will give and flex, like wood or plastic where as aluminum for instance won't... (by comparison) 

Tap Drill Chart

Charts like this are great for reference. Don't be afraid to use the decimal equivalent for a standard drill bit when you're cutting metric threads. I got a large drill bit set from Harbor Freight or Northern Tool (can't remember which) that has every letter and just about every fraction (except of course the ones most kits ask for). This comes in very handy when I'm looking up the decimal equivalent for fractional mm.

Hope this helps with the thread cutting questions. Those were some of my biggest unknowns when I first started too.


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## dozuki (Jan 27, 2017)

I would like to thank you all for your pointers and advice.  I think I am ready to jump in.


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## AWLogue (Jan 27, 2017)

I'd like to ad my $.02, if you're still taking advice.

A collet chuck is a must-have for turning consistently concentric pens. I recommend getting collets stepped by the mm. Sets can be had from 2-20mm for $50 on eBay.

Make yourself some threaded mandrels out of 1/2" aluminum roundbar. They help greatly for final sanding/shaping. My favorite is me section mandrel, which I use to get perfect to-the-cap-threads mating on my sections.

I also recommend you develop a process of your own through trial and error. Something that works for you and your particular needs. Mine goes something like this, for example:
Cut blanks to rough size, a few mm oversized
Center drill
Turn to slightly oversize diameters
Turn section--body--cap
Sanding/final shaping
Buffing

Regarding drill bits- you can never have too many sizes. I use 5 different sizes for each section I make.


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## Flush1974 (Jan 27, 2017)

AWLogue said:


> I'd like to ad my $.02, if you're still taking advice.
> 
> A collet chuck is a must-have for turning consistently concentric pens. I recommend getting collets stepped by the mm. Sets can be had from 2-20mm for $50 on eBay.
> 
> ...




Thanks for the information.  After looking on ebay, most of the collets I see are in standard sizes not metric.  Does it make a difference?


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## chet0213 (Jan 27, 2017)

you should be able to find a collet set in metric either on ebay or even Amazon.  That is where I purchased mine and I also agree that having the set is the way to go.  I use mine from 6mm all the way to 20mm so having the set sure does cover all the bases.  As far as drill bits go I purchased the big set from HF as I am only drilling out acrylics, woods, alumilite and other resisn so they stay sharp for quite a while and it came with numbered, lettered and fractional bits all the way to 1/2".  I do also have some larger end mills and pen drill bits from Woodcraft that work well.  A good thing the end mills are for is if you are going to do anything that requires polishing the internal areas,  that will ensure a good clean finish with a flat end.


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## Curly (Jan 27, 2017)

The reason for metric collet is the ER32 collets have a grip range of 1mm or .040", so each step up in size covers everything. An imperial set goes up in 1/16" or .060" so the collet has to be forced to accept and hold a part at the ends of its grip range. I suppose there are collets that have 1/32" sizes but that means having more and being special will cost more too. Hence the metric recommendations.


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## farmer (Jan 28, 2017)

*Tools*



dozuki said:


> I think I have almost everything I am going to need to step into the kitless pen making world.  I have several sets of taps and dies, collet chuck, chuck for rounding square blanks, nib sections and am ordering drills.
> 
> My question is are there special drills.  I have been looking all over the net and it sounds like at least a few of the bits will be a little larger than needed.  Like the 9X.75 works out to be a 8.25.  So I am rounding up to 8.5mm.  I just want to make sure that is how it works and I wont be getting drills that are just to big.
> 
> Thanks for the help.  if anyone has any suggestions on tools that will make the process smoother I am open to suggestion.



Slant bed CNC 
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...5332F381245BFCBCB97C5332F381245BFC&FORM=VIRE3

A decent mill Vertical Mill (VM-836E) | Baileigh Industrial | Baileigh Industrial

Decent metal lathe with live cutters and a indexer.
6 inch jointer , 14 inch band saw , 
Compound miter saw  , table saw with sliding bed  
Router table  ,

Issue is one lathe is not enough ......................


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## dozuki (Jan 28, 2017)

Farmer:  you are a funny guy. That vertical mill is over $5000 and it is huge.  I don't even want to think what the off center lathe would run.  I mean besides the need for a new shop to put it in.  

Flush1974  Could go into the threaded mandrel that you use.  And I am always open for good advice.


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## farmer (Jan 29, 2017)

*Funny*



dozuki said:


> Farmer:  you are a funny guy. That vertical mill is over $5000 and it is huge.  I don't even want to think what the off center lathe would run.  I mean besides the need for a new shop to put it in.
> 
> Flush1974  Could go into the threaded mandrel that you use.  And I am always open for good advice.



You almost( :wink: ) make me feel guilty because I have most everything I mentioned except the slant bed CNC.

Straight up
A decent metal lathe say 20 inches between centers  3/4 hp to 1 in Hp 
with a indexer and a live cutter with the right router bits , mill ends and slitting saw and you can become a world class pen maker ..........

good luck


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## ldb2000 (Jan 29, 2017)

View in Gallery

View in Gallery


View in Gallery



All this talk of vertical mills and fancy metal lathes . I'm sorry to say all i had was a jet1014vs lathe and some HF drill bits so I guess I'll have to wait till i hit the lottery to get back into penmaking ..... oh well :frown:


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## skiprat (Jan 29, 2017)

Hey Butch, it's really good to see you here again. It's been too long old friend.
I hope you intend getting in on some of the Bash contests and give JT a run for his money...:biggrin:


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## ldb2000 (Jan 29, 2017)

Hey Skip
Great to hear from you . 
I lost my shop a few years ago during Sandy and have not had the time or money to rebuild so I won't be in this years bash but now that I'm retiring i will have some extra time to get a shop up again , this spring i hope. I really miss penmaking and would love to get going again .


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## jttheclockman (Jan 29, 2017)

ldb2000 said:


> Hey Skip
> Great to hear from you .
> I lost my shop a few years ago during Sandy and have not had the time or money to rebuild so I won't be in this years bash but now that I'm retiring i will have some extra time to get a shop up again , this spring i hope. I really miss penmaking and would love to get going again .




Yes it is good to see you Butch and sorry to hear about the shop. Many people I know are still trying to recover from Sandy and a few are still fighting the government for their simple share of the money.

By the way take your time and get the shop the way you want it. I will take care of some of the Bash contests this year. Thought i would throw my hat in the ring on a few this year.  

Glad you showed your pen with the use of a simple wood lathe. I try to tell these people a metal lathe means nothing if you do not know how to use it. So much can be done with a simple wood lathe and wood turning tools. CNC machines and huge lathes means nothing to me have no desire to own them.


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