# 360 herringbone how to????



## theturningcircle

Can anyone point me in the right direction on how to do a 360degree herringbone segmentation. 180 is fine and easy but the 360 is giving me sleepless nights.:frown:
Thanks in advance. Ian.


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## DurocShark

*DurocShark lurks in the shadows hoping for a hint on doing this.


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## rjwolfe3

+1!!


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## Rollerbob

Evidently the man that seems to know, has been very tight lipped.:frown: But, I'm thinking one more slip of the finger, so to speak, and a few pain killers, he'll sing like a bird!!


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## DurocShark

Need some of this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truth_drug


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## Rollerbob

DurocShark said:


> Need some of this:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truth_drug


For Shizzle!! :biggrin:


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## wolftat

Rollerbob said:


> Evidently the man that seems to know, has been very tight lipped.:frown: But, I'm thinking one more slip of the finger, so to speak, and a few pain killers, he'll sing like a bird!!


 What are you trying to say Bob?


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## wolftat

DurocShark said:


> Need some of this:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truth_drug


 Administering it would be painful, I think you should look into something else.


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## theturningcircle

Is he open to bribes??:wink:


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## BRobbins629

Just go in circles.  

Hint #1.  There's more than one way.


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## DurocShark

I kinda have it in my head how to do it, but when I get the pieces in my hand I can't make it work.


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## ed4copies

BRobbins629 said:


> Just go in circles.
> 
> Hint #1.  There's more than one way.




So, if you learn to skin a cat, you're there???


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## seawolf

Cheat. Buy one and dissect it. I do believe I saw a 360 blank at woodcraft.
Just a thought.
Mark


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## theturningcircle

I'm getting there - could do with another hint though.:biggrin:


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## BRobbins629

theturningcircle said:


> I'm getting there - could do with another hint though.:biggrin:


Hint #2  See my avatar


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## wolftat

BRobbins629 said:


> Hint #2 See my avatar


 Bruce, you're killing me. You are too funny.


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## John M

LOL:biggrin::biggrin:




ed4copies said:


> So, if you learn to skin a cat, you're there???


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## workinforwood

It's a square rope. You free hand it with your bandsaw and the colors come from your blood.


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## desertyellow

I was told the answer is blowing in the wind.
Still chasing after it.


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## hewunch

Hint try making your pieces out of cardboard. Play with that then move to wood.


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## BRobbins629

Hint #3.  For my method, it doesn't have to be a glued up blank.  It can be built around a tube.

I will answer all yes/no questions.


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## Rollerbob

Bruce, are the cuts done on 30 degrees?


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## ed4copies

BRobbins629 said:


> Hint #3.  For my method, it doesn't have to be a glued up blank.  It can be built around a tube.
> 
> I will answer all yes/no questions.



Have you ever actually MADE one???

Was it pretty?

Did it sell?

Ok, that's all I wanted to know!!

Thanks!!


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## ed4copies

I'm a firm believer in "discovery" being rewarded.

Whatever the pen sells for, now, it will drop precipitously when "everyone" can do it.

Make hay while the sun shines, guys!!!!!  The time will come when SOMEONE tels EVERYONE how to do it.  I HOPE you get this Christmas season, still commanding a premium.

Three years ago, shell casing pens did.
In here somewhere, corn cob pens did.
Last year, circuit board pens did!  
This year, I doubt it.


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## BRobbins629

Rollerbob said:


> Bruce, are the cuts done on 30 degrees?


not mine - as a matter of fact, I never measured them and didn't need to.


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## BRobbins629

See below



ed4copies said:


> Have you ever actually MADE one???
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Was it pretty? See above, judge for yourself
> 
> Did it sell? Wasn't for sale
> 
> Ok, that's all I wanted to know!!
> 
> Thanks!!


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## DurocShark

Is it bigger than a bread box?




I've nailed it in my void of a head. Drew a sketch real quick like. Gonna try it next weekend.


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## Texatdurango

ed4copies said:


> I'm a firm believer in "discovery" being rewarded.
> 
> *Whatever the pen sells for, now, it will drop precipitously when "everyone" can do it.*
> 
> Make hay while the sun shines, guys!!!!! The time will come when SOMEONE tels EVERYONE how to do it. I HOPE you get this Christmas season, still commanding a premium.
> 
> Three years ago, shell casing pens did.
> In here somewhere, corn cob pens did.
> Last year, circuit board pens did!
> This year, I doubt it.


Ed... Ed... Ed... I always looked up to you as my older brother and expected sage wisdom from you at all times but in this case you let me down with your rationale!

The last I looked the U.S. is a pretty big place and just because a guy in New Hampshire is making and selling a red white and blue rope design using a spalted pecan blank pen doesn't mean it will cut into the profits of a fellow in Arizona making the same pen and neither will affect the pen maker in Washington state.

While we here on the IAP see what each other makes doesn't mean that the average customer walking into a craft show in Topeka, Kansas will be familiar with what is being shown at a craft show in a suburb of Chicago.

Take the flag pen for example, I have sold plenty of them and doubt that you or anyone else selling them made any difference in the price I was getting for mine.  I think this cloak and dagger thinking can only go so far.

Of course I have been wrong before (back in April of 1973) and could be wrong again (doubtful) :biggrin:


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## theturningcircle

Thanks guys for all the tips and hints being banded around. When I asked the original question I thought someone would point me in the direction of a tutorial - but no. However I have gleaned some useful thoughts and tips and I might just be able to do it. I'll post a photo in about a years time:biggrin:.


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## akbar24601

George, I don't feel that you are being fair in your chastisement of Ed. You have failed to mention that this is a very digital age that we live in and our "small" world is getting "smaller" by the day. So I would say that these things do affect nearly every person in every town, globally!!! You also mentioned the guy in Topeka at the craft show, but what about 2, 5 or 10 guys now at that same craft show. I am not saying that all of these guys don't have the right to sell their goods, but I also think it makes for a little more of a level playing field when all of the contestants have worked toward what they are selling and not merely pawning someone elses sweat!

Is it so wrong to want to see people improve themselves and their skills by asking them to work for it. Believe me, there is nothing new that I bring to the table with my pens, but I do spend countless hours experimenting, learning and ultimately achieving what I produce. More times than not I feel like a hopeless hack who probably destroys more blanks than most people usually make, but when I do succeed I get the extrreme pleasure of being able to say "Holy Crap, I did it!!!". That is not something that I want so easily stripped away!

I am willing to help any and all who are willing to learn, but I don't think it's any fun to just sit back and watch someone make copies! I want to see someone who will take that design concept and run with it leaving me and hopefully everyone else in the dust!!!! Hell, he can have my booth at the craft show because he earned it!!!

Perhaps it's a little thing called honor. Those seem to be delicate little toes that seem to get stepped on quite easily in the big bad world of business! Some people do not know how to conduct themselves in a right manner and it usually seems to be the "Originator" who ends up getting screwed in the end!!!



Texatdurango said:


> Ed... Ed... Ed... I always looked up to you as my older brother and expected sage wisdom from you at all times but in this case you let me down with your rationale!
> 
> The last I looked the U.S. is a pretty big place and just because a guy in New Hampshire is making and selling a red white and blue rope design using a spalted pecan blank pen doesn't mean it will cut into the profits of a fellow in Arizona making the same pen and neither will affect the pen maker in Washington state.
> 
> While we here on the IAP see what each other makes doesn't mean that the average customer walking into a craft show in Topeka, Kansas will be familiar with what is being shown at a craft show in a suburb of Chicago.
> 
> Take the flag pen for example, I have sold plenty of them and doubt that you or anyone else selling them made any difference in the price I was getting for mine.  I think this cloak and dagger thinking can only go so far.
> 
> Of course I have been wrong before (back in April of 1973) and could be wrong again (doubtful) :biggrin:


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## wolftat

workinforwood said:


> It's a square rope. You free hand it with your bandsaw and the colors come from your blood.


 Hey, I resemble that remark.


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## wolftat

ed4copies said:


> Have you ever actually MADE one???
> 
> Was it pretty?
> 
> Did it sell?
> 
> Ok, that's all I wanted to know!!
> 
> Thanks!!


 These questions are easy to answer
1) Yes, one was made out of wood bought from you.
2) You are going to have to decide that one.
3) Not that one, it was given away as a very appreciated gift, I did have several offers on it though.


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## wolftat

akbar24601 said:


> George, I don't feel that you are being fair in your chastisement of Ed. You have failed to mention that this is a very digital age that we live in and our "small" world is getting "smaller" by the day. So I would say that these things do affect nearly every person in every town, globally!!! You also mentioned the guy in Topeka at the craft show, but what about 2, 5 or 10 guys now at that same craft show. I am not saying that all of these guys don't have the right to sell their goods, but I also think it makes for a little more of a level playing field when all of the contestants have worked toward what they are selling and not merely pawning someone elses sweat!
> 
> Is it so wrong to want to see people improve themselves and their skills by asking them to work for it. Believe me, there is nothing new that I bring to the table with my pens, but I do spend countless hours experimenting, learning and ultimately achieving what I produce. More times than not I feel like a hopeless hack who probably destroys more blanks than most people usually make, but when I do succeed I get the extrreme pleasure of being able to say "Holy Crap, I did it!!!". That is not something that I want so easily stripped away!
> 
> I am willing to help any and all who are willing to learn, but I don't think it's any fun to just sit back and watch someone make copies! I want to see someone who will take that design concept and run with it leaving me and hopefully everyone else in the dust!!!! Hell, he can have my booth at the craft show because he earned it!!!
> 
> Perhaps it's a little thing called honor. Those seem to be delicate little toes that seem to get stepped on quite easily in the big bad world of business! Some people do not know how to conduct themselves in a right manner and it usually seems to be the "Originator" who ends up getting screwed in the end!!!


 
Well said, I couldn't agree with you more.


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## ed4copies

Tex, Tex, Tex  (poor mis-directed Tex).

While I realize you have been exposed to thousands of acres of empty land and have sold myriad pens to the gophers, we live in an area of 8 million inhabitants (just Chicago) who "get out" on weekends.  So, each little craft fair affects MY pricing in the "Big" shows.  

You see, when there are dozens of hobbyists "lurking" on the IAP and waiting for an answer, they will then show up with a "knock off" (quality not disclosed) of this design at the "Little Sisters of the Poor weekly fund-raising craft show and abandoned pet sale".  So, MY top-quality blank, purchased from it's rightful "inventor" is now put in the same category as the one "Joe Penmaker" and his wife "Jennie Jewelry" showed at LSotPwFRCSaAPS!!!  By the way, have you SEEN Jennie's BEAUTIFUL elastic band BEAD jewelry????   Hard to believe she can part with a bracelet for only $3.00 with all those gorgeous plastic beads, don't you think???

So, jump back in your motor home and go park and set up a craft show.  If you ever get within 100 miles of Chicago, I will know.  I will hear you screaming, "Where did ALL THESE fine PEOPLE come from???" as you streak along at 300 feet per hour.

Thanks for your input!!!  Go find a gopher!

(It really IS nice to have friends like Tex - he IS talented, but CAN take a ribbing ----GIVES it pretty good, too!!)


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## wolftat

ed4copies said:


> Tex, Tex, Tex (poor mis-directed Tex).
> 
> While I realize you have been exposed to thousands of acres of empty land and have sold myriad pens to the gophers, we live in an area of 8 million inhabitants (just Chicago) who "get out" on weekends. So, each little craft fair affects MY pricing in the "Big" shows.
> 
> You see, when there are dozens of hobbyists "lurking" on the IAP and waiting for an answer, they will then show up with a "knock off" (quality not disclosed) of this design at the "Little Sisters of the Poor weekly fund-raising craft show and abandoned pet sale". So, MY top-quality blank, purchased from it's rightful "inventor" is now put in the same category as the one "Joe Penmaker" and his wife "Jennie Jewelry" showed at LSotPwFRCSaAPS!!! By the way, have you SEEN Jennie's BEAUTIFUL elastic band BEAD jewelry???? Hard to believe she can part with a bracelet for only $3.00 with all those gorgeous plastic beads, don't you think???
> 
> So, jump back in your motor home and go park and set up a craft show. If you ever get within 100 miles of Chicago, I will know. I will hear you screaming, "Where did ALL THESE fine PEOPLE come from???" as you streak along at 300 feet per hour.
> 
> Thanks for your input!!! Go find a gopher!
> 
> (It really IS nice to have friends like Tex - he IS talented, but CAN take a ribbing ----GIVES it pretty good, too!!)


 :rotfl::rotfl::rotfl: You are funny.


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## bitshird

I was told by someone that the ends that connect or butts up to the next piece, aren't square, they are shaped similar to this<> only no space between  but the are also cut at compound angles and are rectangular, I talked to this man who I consider to be one of the Outstanding creators of fantastic pens with beautiful themes and designs that pretty much defy imagination for about a half hour about this style pen. 
The one part I haven't figured out is where to glue the first piece to the tube or do  as Jeff said make a square rope which after contemplation sounds like the logical approach.
Every time I see guys looking for the easy way, I think about Eagles opinion, NO figure it out!! Although I have seen a pictorial tutorial of one of eagles earlier pens, it was on the Pen Shop which I think is now ceased to exist.
I think that looking at Bruce Robbins avatar should give a better Idea of how to lay it out the trick is in that compound angle and cutting enough pieces accurately.
I think with a catch box and a zero clearance fence, this could e done on a compound miter saw there was an article in the library on segmenting that eluded to this type of ox and showed it, http://content.penturners.org/articles/2006/segpenblanks.pdf


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## CSue

ed4copies said:


> Tex, Tex, Tex  (poor mis-directed Tex).
> 
> While I realize you have been exposed to thousands of acres of empty land and have sold myriad pens to the gophers, we live in an area of 8 million inhabitants (just Chicago) who "get out" on weekends.  So, each little craft fair affects MY pricing in the "Big" shows.
> 
> You see, when there are dozens of hobbyists "lurking" on the IAP and waiting for an answer, they will then show up with a "knock off" (quality not disclosed) of this design at the "Little Sisters of the Poor weekly fund-raising craft show and abandoned pet sale".  So, MY top-quality blank, purchased from it's rightful "inventor" is now put in the same category as the one "Joe Penmaker" and his wife "Jennie Jewelry" showed at LSotPwFRCSaAPS!!!  By the way, have you SEEN Jennie's BEAUTIFUL elastic band BEAD jewelry????   Hard to believe she can part with a bracelet for only $3.00 with all those gorgeous plastic beads, don't you think???
> 
> So, jump back in your motor home and go park and set up a craft show.  If you ever get within 100 miles of Chicago, I will know.  I will hear you screaming, "Where did ALL THESE fine PEOPLE come from???" as you streak along at 300 feet per hour.
> 
> Thanks for your input!!!  Go find a gopher!
> 
> (It really IS nice to have friends like Tex - he IS talented, but CAN take a ribbing ----GIVES it pretty good, too!!)



Ed!  You recognized me at the "Little Sisters of the Poor weekly fund-raising craft show and abandoned pet sale"???


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## ed4copies

CSue said:


> Ed!  You recognized me at the "Little Sisters of the Poor weekly fund-raising craft show and abandoned pet sale"???




Hell, yes!!!

Couldn't miss you goin" up to take

_*BEST OF SHOW!!!*_
​


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## wolftat

A couple of people have contacted me and have said some nasty things to me, as far as I am concerned, save it, your just showing how little you truly know. If this is truly that important for you to learn, get out from behind your keyboard, go into your shop, and try to use your mind for something creative, unless that is asking too much.


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## ed4copies

wolftat said:


> A couple of people have contacted me and have said some nasty things to me, as far as I am concerned, save it, your just showing how little you truly know. If this is truly that important for you to learn, get out from behind your keyboard, go into your shop, and try to use your mind for something creative, unless that is asking too much.




_I'll lend you my brain for a couple days,  Then you can honestly tell them, you can't remember WHAT you did yesterday.

Can be VERY helpful, sometimes.!!
_


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## wolftat

I actually got a kick out of some of the comments. They weren't even spelled correctly, shows me where they were coming from. It's going to take more than a little cheap talk to get anywhere with me.

 Now, just to rub it in. I'm sitting here at my keyboard making a new herringbone 360 blank.


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## ldb2000

Go for it Neil .... Your my hero :biggrin:


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## wolftat

ldb2000 said:


> Go for it Neil .... Your my hero :biggrin:


 You and my dogs, and I have to feed them....LOL


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## akbar24601

Go Neil Go!!!


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## wolftat

Just to really get them I might make 2.....LOL       Yeah thats right, how do you like me now???????????


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## leehljp

bitshird said:


> I was told by someone that the ends that connect or butts up to the next piece, aren't square, they are shaped similar to this<> only no space between  but the are also cut at compound angles and are rectangular,



That is the way I "see" it. I haven't tried yet and don't have the time. But I do love to "visualize" it.

One thing we have to realize - and it is the foundational controversy for this: We are all different. I am a creative type and can visualize things easily. I realize that many people can't.

I can hold plans in my head including designs and multiple measurements for flatwork easily for months and years. My cousin cannot. But with a set of plans and a list, he can build a table that is every bit as nice as what I can do. Two different people. Should I tell him he can never make a table because he cannot "visualize" it. He is not an "imagining" person. Should I look down on him because he can't? Should I tell him to figure it out for himself? OR should I recognize his inability to "visualize" and help him? When I do that, I get a "free" accountant :biggrin:, because that is what he does well that I can't.

But on the other hand - I do agree with this:


> Every time I see guys looking for the easy way, I think about Eagles opinion, NO figure it out!!



Here is a link to two items that I made some years ago and neither measurements or designs were written down on paper, yet I visualized every part and the whole (including measurements for each piece) before making either.
Scroll down to the fourth post.
http://www.bt3central.com/showthread.php?t=42491&highlight=Router+Center

Should I tell others - go figure it out, or should I help those who cannot "visualize". There is a difference in lazy, as some are, and not having the ability as others are. We don't need to condemn both because one is lazy. This is a personal choice and I personally err on the side of helping.

To me, life is not about me, but about helping others become better than I am by building on what I do know. I do, as a teacher, offer suggestions and try to push them along with clues, but I do realize that some do not have ANY visualizing ability. LOML taught me that!  She is spatially challenged but musically gifted.

On this forum, we have gifted people, obviously have a few lazy people, and we have those without any imagination that would love to have some insights and help. Some people need lists and steps and to others, lists and steps get in the way. Sharing what we know is personal and reveals our personality.


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## wolftat

Hank, you should tell me I can't make one. I can't cut more than 2 inches straight.


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## ed4copies

Hank,

You say, "I do, as a teacher, offer suggestions and try to push them along".  Sounds like this is your profession-vocation.  So, you are PAID to do this?  I suspect if each of the prospective students who want the 360 degree info were to give Neil and Steve a couple hundred bucks (cheap tuition) and there were 50 or so of them (most colleges don't offer courses to less than 50 people --- course prep, etc) ------

Well, that comes to about $5-10 grand.  NOW Neil and Steve might see a GOOD REASON to SHARE THEIR techniques.

BTW, did the guy who taught YOU do it for FREE, or was he/she also being paid??

Professional teaching is not a transfer of YOUR ideas, generally, it is a transfer or evolution of ideas of others.  A whole different animal.


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## wolftat

Ed, you missed your true calling, you would have made a great lawyer.


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## akbar24601

wolftat said:


> Ed, you missed your true calling, you would have made a great lawyer.


*Hey! It's never too late ED!!!*


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## bitshird

ed4copies said:


> Professional teaching is not a transfer of YOUR ideas, generally, it is a transfer or evolution of ideas of others.  A whole different animal.


Wow ed, that's the sweetest thing I've heard you say, also one of the best, It's hard enough to show someone the path, but that doesn't mean you should lead them down it.


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## wdcav1952

wolftat said:


> Ed, you missed your true calling, you would have made a great Bull Sh***er!!.



:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:


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## bitshird

wdcav1952 said:


> :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:
> 
> :rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:



Cav, it's hard enough to get Ed to ship the resin for Dawn, He'd never get a bull a box :wink::wink:


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## leehljp

ed4copies said:


> Hank,
> BTW, did the guy who taught YOU do it for FREE, or was he/she also being paid??
> 
> Professional teaching is not a transfer of YOUR ideas, generally, it is a transfer or evolution of ideas of others.  A whole different animal.



That which I learned in helping others was FREE from the school of hard knocks and it came through the venue of experience. There was no money paid for that! Just time and mistakes. And it is a matter of philosophy  - About me, or others.

In business, information and knowledge is profitable and should be considered as such. On THIS forum, pen turning is a community - more "open source", to use todays terms. I know that you run a business here and that you sell blanks of the HB design, so you are biased. However, most people are not here for "business" purposes, and the primary purpose of this forum is the sharing of ideas and encouraging the expansion of pen making among a voluntary community. Your business preferences should not override the needs of the community.

That said, in an open forum community as IAP is, when I know something that others do not, I can choose to keep it to myself selfishly or I can choose to help others who ask. 

This is not a matter of business and dollars, but of philosophy differences. Helping others (or teaching) is not its own reward for me, - It is my character and who I am. And I see this in many people on this forum. I hate to see this discussion degenerated to money and dollars, but I do realize that is the way some see it.


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## Texatdurango

akbar24601 said:


> George, I don't feel that you are being fair in your chastisement of Ed.


 
akbar24601 don't read too much into anything Ed and I say to each other, we enjoy pulling each others chain now and then.  But, I still think severak folks are overly concerned that once everyone figures out this top secret design that the market will be flooded with knockoffs, afterall it's just a herringbone design for crying outloud!  If it's so time consuming, most won't even fool with it.

This hysteria reminds me of the celtic knots, for a while everyone had to make one, myself included, but it soon died down and I haven't made one in over a years now!


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## rjwolfe3

Go Ducks?!?!


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## Wolfcoast

I don't really have access to my shop at the moment because I'm in the process of moving but.....

After thinking about the 360 issue I came up with one idea.  Would be a pain in the butt to do but possible.

What about small slices of veneer glued around the tube??

It would take a lot of effort in cutting all the little slices but seems to me it MIGHT work.


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## jimbob91577

rjwolfe3 said:


> Go Ducks?!?!


 
LOL

Go Duck Hunters!


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## wolftat

leehljp said:


> In business, information and knowledge is profitable and should be considered as such. On THIS forum, pen turning is a community - more "open source", to use todays terms. I know that you run a business here and that you sell blanks of the HB design, so you are biased. However, most people are not here for "business" purposes, and the primary purpose of this forum is the sharing of ideas and encouraging the expansion of pen making among a voluntary community. Your business preferences should not override the needs of the community.
> 
> That said, in an open forum community as IAP is, when I know something that others do not, I can choose to keep it to myself selfishly or I can choose to help others who ask.
> 
> This is not a matter of business and dollars, but of philosophy differences. Helping others (or teaching) is not its own reward for me, - It is my character and who I am. And I see this in many people on this forum. I hate to see this discussion degenerated to money and dollars, but I do realize that is the way some see it.


 I also have a business where I make and sell pens, that is a business that my family has been in for many years. If I am able to make a product someone else can not make, why should I feel that because we are the members of the same forum group that I am obligated to share one of the few hard earned secrets that I have? There are so many different designs out there, why is this one so important that everyone has to have it? My main fear is that this blank will start being made in the sweat shops and showing up at the larger companies all looking the same. This has happened too many times and I for one am tired of it, so if I have any say and I don't, it would never be posted as a tutorial. I mean no disrespect to anyone that is interested in truly working on this blank, but I think this is a special blank and I don't want to see it cheapened.


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## leehljp

wolftat said:


> I also have a business where I make and sell pens, that is a business that my family has been in for many years. If I am able to make a product someone else can not make, why should I feel that because we are the members of the same forum group that I am obligated to share one of the few hard earned secrets that I have? There are so many different designs out there, why is this one so important that everyone has to have it? My main fear is that this blank will start being made in the sweat shops and showing up at the larger companies all looking the same. This has happened too many times and I for one am tired of it, so if I have any say and I don't, it would never be posted as a tutorial. I mean no disrespect to anyone that is interested in truly working on this blank, but I think this is a special blank and I don't want to see it cheapened.




You are a business and you should respond that you will not help anyone because it is your business. I don't blame anyone for protecting their business.

However, unless you have a patent on the design or copyright, anyone can try to make something like it or copy it. Also bear in mind that this is a community forum and that ideas are shared simply by posting a picture. So when it comes to ideas, IF a business participates and shows off a pen, EXPECT it to be copied. I don't really have an interest in it although figuring it out is more fun than a problem. (multiple angles in a triangle form; or make a couple of round blanks, drill a hole through the center and then slice the pieces at an angle and then cut the sections) 

Some people don't have the ability to visualize this. I don't hold that against them. LOML has taught me (didn't get paid for it either) that just because someone can't visualize something doesn't mean that they can't appreciate it  - They may not be skillful at it either but at least they can say they tried. And giving step by step instructions for something that they have trouble visualizing (that I do naturally) - brings friendship, trust, loyalty and appreciation - that I can depend on down the road. I have reaped benefits from sharing what little I know with folks on this forum that some would rather hold to themselves. Personally, it is not about "me" and "mine" but helping others the way several helped me at the beginning.

I work with all kinds of people and supervise many personality types also. We have some wonderful people that have no idea of how to send attachments or open specialized forms on a computer. And me - I learned binary coding in the early 60's. So, I don't make fun of them or tell them they "have" figure it out for themselves. I often do other people's forms, or set up their computers, or write a detailed step by step list for them, and in return I get very very productive and effective work done from them. 

I don't like spoon feeding people at all, but I will do that if it helps that person get back on their feet, or become productive or give them some special encouragement or develop confidence in themselves. Not understanding "concepts" "vision" or being able to figure things out should not limit people from enjoying the same things.


----------



## MesquiteMan

The problem is, Hank, as soon as you are nice and create a good tutorial on the subject in the spirit of sharing for personal use, all of a sudden, everyone is making YOUR creation and selling them in the classifieds and profiting from your idea.


----------



## GodofBiscuits

Do I get a cookie if I figured it out? It's really neat what you can do with a sheet of cardboard, an Xacto knife, some glue and an evening of mindless sitcoms. 

Now I won't be taking over anyone's business in the near future and have no interest in taking away from anyone's fame and glory, I do enjoy learning new ideas, and figuring out ways to make some of the amazing pens on this site. I am not rich or even middle class for that matter so to obtain a 360 HB I must figure it out and make one of my own. Half the enjoyment really is figuring out how stuff is done the reaping the reward for a fraction of the price. Now to go build a laser cutter out of chewing wrappers and duct tape.

So where's my cookie :-D


----------



## theturningcircle

GodofBiscuits said:


> Now to go build a laser cutter out of chewing wrappers and duct tape.
> 
> So where's my cookie :-D


 
Been there - done that - didn't work:curse:


----------



## leehljp

MesquiteMan said:


> The problem is, Hank, as soon as you are nice and create a good tutorial on the subject in the spirit of sharing for personal use, all of a sudden, everyone is making YOUR creation and selling them in the classifieds and profiting from your idea.



In MY business, that is the point! Real success in my business IS working one's self out of a job by training others to improve and do a better job than I can! :wink: :biggrin: Not ashamed of it either. :wink: I apply that idealism both in my work, and outside of my work. I know that I am idealistic to a point on this subject. 


This whole theme basically goes against my grain: "Help those who are talented with hints but rain on the parade of the visualized challenged". I realize I am of a different opinion but my greatest teacher said it is a greater honor to give the front chair to those - that most people put in the back. 

I am probably wrong with my interpretation of forum policy and I acquiesce to your judgement, but I have read the following to mean "help others" when they ask. "The goal of the IAP is to give pen makers a place to enhance their skills, share experiences, and promote the art of pen making." When we keep it hid, we are not doing this.


----------



## leehljp

GodofBiscuits said:


> Do I get a cookie if I figured it out? It's really neat what you can do with a sheet of cardboard, an Xacto knife, some glue and an evening of mindless sitcoms.
> 
> Now I won't be taking over anyone's business in the near future and have no interest in taking away from anyone's fame and glory, I do enjoy learning new ideas, and figuring out ways to make some of the amazing pens on this site. I am not rich or even middle class for that matter so to obtain a 360 HB I must figure it out and make one of my own. Half the enjoyment really is figuring out how stuff is done the reaping the reward for a fraction of the price. Now to go build a laser cutter out of chewing wrappers and duct tape.
> 
> So where's my cookie :-D



Hey, that is great! Congratulations and you did it. It sure is better when one figures it out for himself or herself. Just remember some people are challenged in this area but they are not without talent or heart.

Your Cookie:

"Leaders are best when people scarcely know they exist,
	not so good when people obey and acclaim them, 	
worst when people despise them.
     ...Of good leaders who talk little, 
          when their work is done, 
               their task fulfilled, 
     the people will all say 'We did this ourselves'"
Lao Tsu 2000 years ago


----------



## Don Gaiser

Are you sure about that???  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




http://www.faber-castell.com.au/24139/News/Pen-of-the-Year-2008/default_news.aspx




MesquiteMan said:


> The problem is, Hank, as soon as you are nice and create a good tutorial on the subject in the spirit of sharing for personal use, all of a sudden, everyone is making YOUR creation and selling them in the classifieds and profiting from your idea.


----------



## rjwolfe3

> His idea???
> http://www.faber-castell.com.au/2413...ault_news.aspx



Looks like everyone seems to be copying someone else. I wonder who made the first one at the beginning?


----------



## Rollerbob

rjwolfe3 said:


> Looks like everyone seems to be copying someone else. I wonder who made the first one at the beginning?


 UH, God!!:biggrin:


----------



## bitshird

On this forum I believe it was Chip "TribalRR" at least that was the first one I remember seeing, but I've not quite been here two years yet, and I have to tell you that Chips Blew me away, Then Steve started doing them. I don't think these people that want a tutorial realize the expense that Neil has gone through from making his bandsaw  more accurate which alone cost close to 350.00  to creating the jigs to make the blank, so he has a bunch of money and time invested. We were talking about making a more accurate miter sled, he's looking for 1 degree accuracy, any one have some idea how hard it is to hold 1 degree consistently? add to the fact he wants to do this on a compound angle. Sure call Rockler, or CSUSA they can help you with all of this stuff just sell your first born, buy some spare time (which is really expensive)and you too can join the wonderful world of marketing.
 Maybe I'm not one to be talking because I've pretty much copied someone elsewhere tool design and have sold a couple hundred of them, BUT I didn't ask him for a tutorial on how to do it, I figured out the first one then went on to improve on his design, with a couple more designs. I really think this topic has been beaten to death


----------



## Texatdurango

Don Gaiser said:


> Are you sure about that???
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.faber-castell.com.au/24139/News/Pen-of-the-Year-2008/default_news.aspx


 
Too funny! Looks like the "Sweat shops" have already gotten hold of someones "idea"..... before they did! 

Looks like some don't mind sharing their secrets, Fabre Castell even has a page showing how some of their pens are made, even shows how their assembly line is set up. Check it out! http://www.faber-castell.com.au/196...cts-are-made/Connector-Pens/default_news.aspx


----------



## ed4copies

bitshird said:


> On this forum I believe it was Chip "TribalRR" at least that was the first one I remember seeing, but I've not quite been here two years yet, and I have to tell you that Chips Blew me away, Then Steve started doing them. I don't think these people that want a tutorial realize the expense that Neil has gone through from making his bandsaw  more accurate which alone cost close to 350.00  to creating the jigs to make the blank, so he has a bunch of money and time invested. We were talking about making a more accurate miter sled, he's looking for 1 degree accuracy, any one have some idea how hard it is to hold 1 degree consistently? add to the fact he wants to do this on a compound angle. Sure call Rockler, or CSUSA they can help you with all of this stuff just sell your first born, buy some spare time (which is really expensive)and you too can join the wonderful world of marketing.
> Maybe I'm not one to be talking because I've pretty much copied someone elsewhere tool design and have sold a couple hundred of them, BUT I didn't ask him for a tutorial on how to do it, I figured out the first one then went on to improve on his design, with a couple more designs. I really think this topic has been beaten to death



*Warning, this turned long, sorry!
*​
Ken,

We have to have SOMETHING to talk about.  And, each new discussion brings up new facets of debate.  Perhaps having influence on the NEXT "invention" or "innovation".    

One of the reasons I don't choose to be "inventive" or "innovative" is my preference to find "income" in my hobbies.  I don't believe these innovations pay minimum wage, on a per hour basis.  But, I enjoy debate and I learn from others' opinions.  Hopefully, Hank is equally open-minded and, some day we will be closer together in our opinions as he realizes he IS being paid to educate others to DO A JOB.  Again, a dollar and cent motivation with an "employer" of some sort or other paying both people to exchange information, which neither of them "invented".

The herringbone most certainly HAS pre-existed Wolftat.  However, he is under even LESS obligation (IN MY VIEW) to share his methods, under those circumstances.  You wanna know how to make it, do some SERIOUS research.  Clearly, it's been done, SOMEONE in those hundred years or so wrote a tutorial.  GO FIND IT, if you can't figure out the process on your own.  Neil and Steve (Akbar) have reintroduced an old concept which THEY figured out.  They are under NO obligation to SHARE with anyone.

The link that shows the concept is over a century old, also means RESEARCH will result in success.  

More than one source of information in the world.  Just think, when I did research, there WAS NO INTERNET!!!  NO GOOGLE!!!  Not even Yahoo.  All those founders were being BORN.  We had to go to libraries -- try one ---math section ---- suspect you will find the "herringbone", called by some geometric name, spelled out in detail.

While you're there, you will be amazed what OTHER things you may learn.

FWIW!! WEPYPFI!!

By the way, Hank -- I do profit from my sales at exotics, but IF it were being run as a "life support business" our policies would be VERY different.
"Freebees" reduce profit.  "Guest artists" reduce profit.  "Flat rate freight" reduces profit.  Well, let's leave it there.  We started exotics because it seemed like fun to make blanks.  We still get GREAT ENJOYMENT out of it, but it is NOT distorting my judgment or influencing my argument in this matter.  I am a strong capitalist by nature --- I will defend EVERYONE'S RIGHT to EARN money from their innovations.  If they are forced to give away those innovative ideas, why would they continue to SHOW them???
It's REAL HARD to eat "bragging rights" and with the current state of the economy, "pocket money" from your hobbies could be your only income next week, if you are laid off (Funny, my parents used to call that "fired", they both mean the same thing -- YOUR job is GONE!!  You see, I have been unemployed in my life, but I have NOT taken money from the government during those times--I was not productive, I see no reason why I should be paid--- another part of being ornery and independent)


----------



## wolftat

Texatdurango said:


> Too funny! Looks like the "Sweat shops" have already gotten hold of someones "idea"..... before they did!
> 
> Looks like some don't mind sharing their secrets, Fabre Castell even has a page showing how some of their pens are made, even shows how their assembly line is set up. Check it out! http://www.faber-castell.com.au/196...cts-are-made/Connector-Pens/default_news.aspx


 Well there you go, just follow their instructions and in five minutes you too can be carrying your own Herringbone 360 pen around. Best of luck to you.


----------



## wolftat

leehljp said:


> You are a business and you should respond that you will not help anyone because it is your business. I don't blame anyone for protecting their business.
> 
> However, unless you have a patent on the design or copyright, anyone can try to make something like it or copy it. Also bear in mind that this is a community forum and that ideas are shared simply by posting a picture. So when it comes to ideas, IF a business participates and shows off a pen, EXPECT it to be copied. I don't really have an interest in it although figuring it out is more fun than a problem. (multiple angles in a triangle form; or make a couple of round blanks, drill a hole through the center and then slice the pieces at an angle and then cut the sections)
> 
> Some people don't have the ability to visualize this. I don't hold that against them. LOML has taught me (didn't get paid for it either) that just because someone can't visualize something doesn't mean that they can't appreciate it - They may not be skillful at it either but at least they can say they tried. And giving step by step instructions for something that they have trouble visualizing (that I do naturally) - brings friendship, trust, loyalty and appreciation - that I can depend on down the road. I have reaped benefits from sharing what little I know with folks on this forum that some would rather hold to themselves. Personally, it is not about "me" and "mine" but helping others the way several helped me at the beginning.
> 
> I work with all kinds of people and supervise many personality types also. We have some wonderful people that have no idea of how to send attachments or open specialized forms on a computer. And me - I learned binary coding in the early 60's. So, I don't make fun of them or tell them they "have" figure it out for themselves. I often do other people's forms, or set up their computers, or write a detailed step by step list for them, and in return I get very very productive and effective work done from them.
> 
> I don't like spoon feeding people at all, but I will do that if it helps that person get back on their feet, or become productive or give them some special encouragement or develop confidence in themselves. Not understanding "concepts" "vision" or being able to figure things out should not limit people from enjoying the same things.


 Hank, I think you have misinterpreted what I have said. I am not against people learning how to make this blank, I am against it being turned over to the large companies to be made in bulk. While I see that Farber-Castle is making the pen, they aren't selling the blanks.
 I have always said that I would be happy to help someone that is serious and is willing to put in the time. I have also as previously stated sent a partially built blank to one person who after 6 weeks of correspondence with me, still could not visualize the final build. He was trying hard and was showing me pictures of what he was doing and was trying hard. He is now making them, but has chosen to not post them because of issues like this. I have been contacted by several people since this thread started and have told them all the same thing. "I will help, but I won't teach. Show me what you have done and I will try to point you in the right direction." I feel that this is not something you are going to learn in an hour or even a day. It took me 3 months of work to be able to build it, it took Steve 4 days to figure it out. Maybe he is smarter than me, or maybe he just went in a better direction than me, either way, I'm okay with it.
 For those of you that want to learn this blank, work at it and then you will find that the rewards are much sweeter. I spent 3 days in my shop figuring out how to make the spiderweb pen, then I saw that there was a tutorial in the library. I had 3 days of relaxation (some frustration)and fun figuring it out for myself, I wouldn't change that even if I could. I am very proud of what I have learned by trying things for myself, maybe others need to learn the feeling that I feel.


----------



## wolftat

MesquiteMan said:


> The problem is, Hank, as soon as you are nice and create a good tutorial on the subject in the spirit of sharing for personal use, all of a sudden, everyone is making YOUR creation and selling them in the classifieds and profiting from your idea.


 There is that issue also. I have cactus as you know, and have made a few pens, but out of respect, I will not sell a blank.


----------



## leehljp

ed4copies said:


> *Warning, this turned long, sorry!
> *​
> Hopefully, Hank is equally open-minded and, some day we will be closer together in our opinions as he realizes he IS being paid to educate others to DO A JOB.  Again, a dollar and cent motivation with an "employer" of some sort or other paying both people to exchange information, which neither of them "invented".



Actually we are closer that most would think. I am a capitalist! But my profession is not that. 

Also I am not a "teacher" in the sense that it is not my profession, but I do teach things, or mentor, or share, or show someone how to do something or train them. Some of that is outside of the money making profession. Dang - people call me all the time to teach them, help them, fix things, cultural things (why do Japanese do this?). And being the good ole boy, I do. Hard for me to say no!

AS to teaching, I got my degree in it, but one year of practice teaching when corporal punishment was first banned - was enough to drive me away from that before I even started! :biggrin:

In today's world, teaching is primarily the transfer of knowledge and mentoring is the transfer of values, which is where I like to work. I can make a few people do things by my position but that is not what I want. I prefer to transfer values and vision and watch them go beyond what I can do. I don't care to "educate" them to do a job, but rather motivate them.

AS to the "Paid to do a job", I didn't come here for the "pay". No pay is worth the HE** of learning this language in the school that I went too.  But the other reasons and motives ARE worth it - helping people, and watching them come out of their shell!


----------



## ed4copies

leehljp said:


> Actually we are closer that most would think. I am a capitalist! But my profession is not that.
> 
> Also I am not a "teacher" in the sense that it is not my profession, but I do teach things, or mentor, or share, or show someone how to do something or train them. Some of that is outside of the money making profession. Dang - people call me all the time to teach them, help them, fix things, cultural things (why do Japanese do this?). And being the good ole boy, I do. Hard for me to say no!
> 
> AS to teaching, I got my degree in it, but one year of practice teaching when corporal punishment was first banned - was enough to drive me away from that before I even started! :biggrin:
> 
> In today's world, teaching is primarily the transfer of knowledge and mentoring is the transfer of values, which is where I like to work. I can make a few people do things by my position but that is not what I want. I prefer to transfer values and vision and watch them go beyond what I can do. I don't care to "educate" them to do a job, but rather motivate them.
> 
> AS to the "Paid to do a job", I didn't come here for the "pay". No pay is worth the HE** of learning this language in the school that I went too.  But the other reasons and motives ARE worth it - helping people, and watching them come out of their shell!



Sorry, Hank.  Can't have it both ways.  The FACT that we are feeding our faces every day allows us to be GENEROUS.   The question is NOT did you COME HERE for the pay, it is instead, would you STAY if they CEASED paying you.  How would you eat?   By showing others HOW to do something, your employer finds you "worth the money" they pay YOU.  Additionally, you add value to those you teach.  

Some of the people here are creative!! (not me)  They have a right to SELL their creations.  And they have a right not to SHARE EVERYTHING they know.  They are NOT being paid to do so.  

And I DO ENJOY debating with you.  I hope you don't take any of it personally.  I have great respect for you, from what I think I know about you.      (On a different note, I thought VERY highly of a certain sports figure who won the Heisman, played football and moved on to broadcasting - so I HAVE been wrong about people, in the past)


----------



## wolftat

With all the passion in this thread, we should have someone creating a 12 row herringbone shortly. Lets see who will do it before me.


----------



## ed4copies

wolftat said:


> With all the passion in this thread, we should have someone creating a 12 row herringbone shortly. Lets see who will do it before me.




Neil,

That actually would be possible with tiny faceted gems.  Of course, if you think the stars in the "Stars and Stripes" are small...............................!!

Then, about turning gems............................

So, there are a couple of obstacles!!


----------



## akbar24601

wolftat said:


> With all the passion in this thread, we should have someone creating a 12 row herringbone shortly. Lets see who will do it before me.



Well Neil, I've already got a prototype sitting in my "shop", just never took the time to make it in to a pen. Does that count for beating you to it?:biggrin:


----------



## wolftat

akbar24601 said:


> Well Neil, I've already got a prototype sitting in my "shop", just never took the time to make it in to a pen. Does that count for beating you to it?:biggrin:


 Did I say 12? Uhmmmmm, I meant 24, uh no 36!


----------



## akbar24601

wolftat said:


> Did I say 12? Uhmmmmm, I meant 24, uh no 36!



Wouldn't that be considered gluing shavings to a tube?!


----------



## wolftat

akbar24601 said:


> Wouldn't that be considered gluing shavings to a tube?!


 Would you like a tutorial?


----------



## workinforwood

I appreciate the fact you guys want it to be somewhat hush hush.  This way, when I go build a few for me, they will be more valuable.  Most of my artwork is the same sort of idea.  I make originals, I do not sell the patterns and I hold the copyright so that it can not be legally reproduced.  I do this so that people are buying the only one, and I do not build another.  I don't want to build another, as that would be boring.  And my price is much higher than average...sure I'm a capitalist.    I sell blanks every so often too, and there is no money to be made in herringbone blanks, rather as Ed says..it's too much work.  Because of that, you want there to be less quantity to drive up the final price.  If you sit down and make a leaf blank, you will quickly realize that $45 for that is a gift from the heavens.   Finally..chivalry is not completely dead.  Some of us can make what others make and chose not to, or at least not to sell or say how it's done out of that respect.   I wrote the herringbone on to my to do list, and eventually, I'll build one, and maybe by then, It will have cooled off to the point that everyone will restart the how how how debate again, lol.


----------



## ed4copies

*Reminiscent*



akbar24601 said:


> Well Neil, I've already got a prototype sitting in my "shop", just never took the time to make it in to a pen. Does that count for beating you to it?:biggrin:




Now you two DO sound like Eagle.  Dawn once proposed that a popcorn pen would be interesting, in the days when these debates turned nasty and the phrase, "Let's get some popcorn and sit and watch" was popular.

Eagle said he had already done that.  Undaunted, Dawn popped some corn and made the pen, sending a pic to the bird.   He did not know what it was and was astonished to find out it was popcorn, to which he said, "Well, I thought about doing it, before anyone else!!"

We loved Eagle, but, being a creative sort, once he figured out HOW to do it, it was a fait accompli in his mind.

Creative sorts are like that, I guess!!  I'll ask Dawn, SHE'S creative!!


----------



## broitblat

I'm not sure I've followed all the different points of view on this thread, but ...

Seeing the results of someone else's inspiration, experimentation, and research is already sharing a lot, and I, for one, am grateful for the many great ideas that have been shared on this site.  There is no reason why someone should be obligated to shave every detail of implementing their design if they don't want to, nor should they be obligated to even disclose why they don't want to.  I respect their decision and appreciate that which they have been willing to share.

I am inspired by much of what I see here, whether I know how to do a similar technique or not (or could accomplish it even if I "knew" how).  If the artists in our community were allowed to show only those pieces for which they also published a detailed tutorial, I fear our community would be a much lesser place.

  -Barry


----------



## wolftat

ed4copies said:


> Now you two DO sound like Eagle.


 I'll take that as a compliment Ed.


----------



## bdonald

Texatdurango said:


> akbar24601   But, I still think severak folks are overly concerned that once everyone figures out this top secret design that the market will be flooded with knockoffs, afterall it's just a herringbone design for crying outloud!  If it's so time consuming, most won't even fool with it.
> 
> This hysteria reminds me of the celtic knots, for a while everyone had to make one, myself included, but it soon died down and I haven't made one in over a years now!



I was thinking the exact same thing.  As I stated in another thread, I am visualizing it at this point because I cant reset the shop for the tools I need just yet.  But if I'm correct <which I'm sure there's more than one way to make this beast>, I think people would lose interest quickly with the steps involved.  Ron McIntyre <sp?> is a good example of that.  He makes beautiful stuff, and after seeing his tutorials and work, I've lost interest in making them.  1 because his stuff is so darned amazing and whatever I make would just be a lame copy, and 2, it can get more  involved than I'm willing to do.  If I'm going to put that much effort into something, I'd rather it be something I can call my own.  I never could work from plans in other aspects of woodworking, cant start now! I agree that the imitators will filter out.


----------



## wood-of-1kind

Where's Mike Vickery(vick)? Remember him, he made/makes the 'best' herringbone patterned pens that I've seen by far. Mike if you're out there, chime in and share a bit of your wisdom.

Gloat: I happen to own one of his herringbone FP. I've made a few blanks (herringbone) but I can't hold a candle to his work.


----------



## wolftat

wood-of-1kind said:


> Where's Mike Vickery(vick)? Remember him, he made/makes the 'best' herringbone patterned pens that I've seen by far. Mike if you're out there, chime in and share a bit of your wisdom.
> 
> Gloat: I happen to own one of his herringbone FP. I've made a few blanks (herringbone) but I can't hold a candle to his work.


 I knew there had to be more than the few I knew of. It's good to know that they are around, but I am still asking the question "Who developed it?". I would like to give credit where credit is due.


----------



## Don Gaiser

Well, I have been messing around in Lightwave 3D trying to figure this out.... everything I have tried has thus failed.


----------



## twoofakind

Well I've been trying to picture this in my head since I found this thread yesterday. I will agree with what everyone has said....get out to the shop and try it! After a few failed tries, I figured it out. I am glad there wasn't written instructions on this as I would have missed the journey of figuring it out on my own and getting in some quality shop time.
That being said....this blank takes patience and a ridiculous amount of work.


----------



## bdonald

twoofakind said:


> Well I've been trying to picture this in my head since I found this thread yesterday. I will agree with what everyone has said....get out to the shop and try it! After a few failed tries, I figured it out. I am glad there wasn't written instructions on this as I would have missed the journey of figuring it out on my own and getting in some quality shop time.
> That being said....this blank takes patience and a ridiculous amount of work.



Cool, looking forward to seeing the finished product.  We are of like minds, I can imagine the feeling of accomplishment after it was done.  I kind of figured this was going to require a bunch of work even after you figure out the method.


----------



## Don Gaiser

There is a tutorial in the library that used to have info in it on how to do the herringbone, according to this thread, http://www.penturners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=36217&highlight=herringbone ...the info was on page 13 and 14... well, there is no page 13 & 14 in that doc... it's government conspiracy I tell ya!!

  There is also a picture on that page which may help figure this out.


----------



## twoofakind

That tutorial was for a regular two sided herringbone. This is a different animal all together.
Andy


----------



## TribalRR

Not that it makes much difference but the first 360 herringbone I saw was faber castel's... Then BRobbins posted his that was made directly on the tube. I then made and posted mine that was made from a solid blank. Though I have give advice to many people, Neil is the only one that finished one and I asked him to keep it a secret. So if anyone has an issue with him not telling can blame me


----------



## twoofakind

I think it will be interesting to see how many ways people come up with to make this design. I can't wait to compare notes...with the attention this thing is getting, it won't take long I'm sure.


----------



## akbar24601

TribalRR said:


> Though I have give advice to many people, Neil is the only one that finished one and I asked him to keep it a secret. So if anyone has an issue with him not telling can blame me



Darn you Chip, I hate you!!!! You should be banished from the earth, NAY, the Milky Way!!!!! :mad-tongue: I also blame you for my puppy dying when I was five! Thanks alot!!! :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:


----------



## wolftat

TribalRR said:


> Not that it makes much difference but the first 360 herringbone I saw was faber castel's... Then BRobbins posted his that was made directly on the tube. I then made and posted mine that was made from a solid blank. Though I have give advice to many people, Neil is the only one that finished one and I asked him to keep it a secret. So if anyone has an issue with him not telling can blame me


 Thanks Chip, the one last great secret that was aggravating people is out, Whom I gave my word to. I believe everyone out here has figured out that my word means a lot to me.


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## wolftat

Texatdurango said:


> But, I still think severak folks are overly concerned that once everyone figures out this top secret design that the market will be flooded with knockoffs, afterall it's just a herringbone design for crying outloud!


 So why did someone have to start making a big deal out of it when they could have let a sleeping dog rest. You know how it is sometimes, someone just has to go and stir the pot for their own entertainment.


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## ElMostro

OK, after about 10 mins of thinking and an hour in the shop I got something...no pictures yet...but will post as soon as I take and re-size the the pics.

Eugene


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## Texatdurango

wolftat said:


> So why did someone have to start making a big deal out of it when they could have let a sleeping dog rest. You know how it is sometimes, someone just has to go and stir the pot for their own entertainment.


 
wolftat I don't understand your post at all.  You wait four days to reply to a post that wasn't directed towards you at all and then only include part of the quote!  What's going on... thread slowing down, need to keep the discussion going?   Gimme a break!

Here is what was said and I see no reason to recant anything...


Originally Posted by *akbar24601* 

 
_George, I don't feel that you are being fair in your chastisement of Ed._
_kbar24601 don't read too much into anything Ed and I say to each other, we enjoy pulling each others chain now and then. But, I still think severak folks are overly concerned that once everyone figures out this top secret design that the market will be flooded with knockoffs, afterall it's just a herringbone design for crying outloud! If it's so time consuming, most won't even fool with it.

This hysteria reminds me of the celtic knots, for a while everyone had to make one, myself included, but it soon died down and I haven't made one in over a years now!_


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## KenV

HINT HINT

Not all ideas are original to penturning

http://www.mudhole.com/Home/Cork-In...83a78d24f6a6928f.e3eSc3eMbxuPe34Pa38Ta38Rb3r0


http://www.mudhole.com/Home/Cork-Ring-Slicing-Jig

Imagine tipping the pieces as you glue them --


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## dogcatcher

KenV said:


> HINT HINT
> 
> Not all ideas are original to penturning
> 
> http://www.mudhole.com/Home/Cork-In...83a78d24f6a6928f.e3eSc3eMbxuPe34Pa38Ta38Rb3r0
> 
> 
> http://www.mudhole.com/Home/Cork-Ring-Slicing-Jig
> 
> Imagine tipping the pieces as you glue them --



Or look at the thread wrapping booklets for more ideas.


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## wolftat

Texatdurango said:


> wolftat I don't understand your post at all. You wait four days to reply to a post that wasn't directed towards you at all and then only include part of the quote! What's going on... thread slowing down, need to keep the discussion going? Gimme a break!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you reread what I wrote, you may see that it was actually agreeing with you. If you took it another way, I apologize for that. I wasn't pointing any fingers, I was just making a general comment about how I saw it and was using a quote from what you posted. I never asked you to recant anything. Relax and take a deep breathe.
Click to expand...


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## desertyellow

The suspense is killing me
I love it!


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## akbar24601

desertyellow said:


> The suspense is killing me
> I love it!


I think some of the long drawn out conversations are killing me!!!! LOL :biggrin:


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