# Endangered or Rain Forest woods & woodturning?



## mbellek (Aug 12, 2007)

I was looking at a couple of woodturners who sell their work on eBay, and one of them works exclusively in dymondwood. On the "about me" page for the seller, they state that the reason for this is they "don't like to use rain forest or other endangered exotic woods" and that got me thinking... 

I am a semi-environmentally-conscious person, I recycle cans, if I learn a cosmetic company tests on animals, I will switch to another, etc, so this is something that I have not been able to get out of my mind since I read it. Does anyone know anything about the environmental implications of some of the more exotic woods we turn? (Padauk, Purpleheart, Ebony, etc) I know that purpleheart comes from the rainforests in central and south America (or at least I read that on wikipedia, but they are getting edited by anyone these days so its hard to know if what you read there is true). Other than Wiki, I have had a hard time coming by any information...

Does that bother anyone else? Anyone know anything about the subject?

Anything would be appreciated...

Melanie


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## Rifleman1776 (Aug 12, 2007)

Don't sweat it. The rain forest 'deforestation' thing is a product of nutso environmentalists. I correspond regularly with an e-friend in Peru who cuts and exports exotic hardwoods. BTW, he cuts responsibly on land he owns. He says that the amount of Amazon region clearing that has ever been done is, in actuality, a relatively small percentage. And, contrary to what the nutsos say, it does regenerate. He regularly takes pictures of cut lands to show progress of regrowth. The reason tropical forests regenerate is because of the simple fact that South American birds to the same thing that birds all over the world do. They poop. It is part of nature's plan. Birds eat fruit and other things, but the seeds pass through the birds undigested and drop indiscriminately where the birds poop. VoilÃ , free planting and new growth.
I may have posted one of his treatise on this subject here at one time, don't recall. Check out his web site, he may have it there. But bottom line is, don't sweat it. What you are doing, contributing to the poor economy in SA by buying their wood is doing good and your aren't hurting the environment.
http://www.exoticwoodworld.com/


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## toolcrazy (Aug 12, 2007)

I agree with Frank, a lot of what you hear on the radio and TV are the media blowing up a story in order to get ratings. Quite a bit of the wood we use comes from farms that plant the trees, harvest the trees then replant them. I was surprised to find that a bit of the exotic woods we use don't even come from South America, they come from a farm in the US.


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## mbellek (Aug 12, 2007)

(First let me say that we are having a mature, adult discussion Frank and that everything that follows is said in that spirit. You're often one of the first to respond to all my silly questions with help and I appreciate that. However, I'm about to politely disagree with you [])

The fact that you use the term "nutso" environmentalist makes me wonder if we are just two very differently-minded people. In a discussion about personal politics, the fact that woodturning is fun is probably one of the very very few things you and I would ever agree on. And that's okay, its just the way things are. I'm not here to make you think like me and I'm sure you aren't either.

I would consider myself a moderate left-winger type. For example, if I were going to have heart surgery, I would hope that the Dr had practiced on a cow heart or two first, but I don't think its okay for something like cosmetics. 

I don't believe that tropical deforestation is categorically a myth. It's not the percentage of the Amazon that has been cut down, its the rate at which it is being cut down versus the time it takes for a sapling to replace a fully grown tree that has been cut down. THOSE are the concerns. 

Also, though its great that your e-friend cuts his wood from his own land--I totally respect that--but is that not like asking a pharmaceutical company rep if you need to take anti-depressants? Wouldn't he have some stake in convincing you that the export of exotic woods is not dangerous to the ecosystem? (You know the answers to those questions--I don't. I don't know this individual, you do) Yes, the purchase of exotic woods supports their economy. Buying cocaine supports the Columbian economy. Doesn't mean its necessarily a good thing.

My point is, that I think you see this question differently than I do because I don't agree with you that deforestation is part of some whacked-out agenda.


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## mbellek (Aug 12, 2007)

Steve, though I agree that most of what we see on the news is sensationalist crap and half-truths spun out of control, when do you see the "top story" about how many trees get cut down in the Amazon? Or how much paper waste the American people produced today? Seriously, when does that happen?


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## its_virgil (Aug 12, 2007)

I read that the Supreme Court Justices were having a group picture made this week and the photographer asked them to lean a little to the left and they all fell over. Just couldn't resist the open door. 
Do a good turn daily!
Don


> _Originally posted by mbellek_
> I would consider myself a moderate left-winger type.


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## Gary Max (Aug 12, 2007)

Buy wood from me----I never cut a tree done ---Mother nature knocks down more wood than I can anyhow. Need any Cherry?????? Sorry -----[]me bad


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## toolcrazy (Aug 12, 2007)

> _Originally posted by Gary Max_
> <br />Buy wood from me----I never cut a tree done ---Mother nature knocks down more wood than I can anyhow. Need any Cherry?????? Sorry -----[]me bad



[]

Well, you can look at that from the left or right, too. The trees that fall turn into soil as they rot they house animals and bugs, then regrown new trees and the removal of those trees interrupt the cycle. But, as you said "Mother nature knocks down more wood than I can anyhow.
" So, this isn't a bad thing, IMHO. Just a view that some will take.


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## toolcrazy (Aug 12, 2007)

> _Originally posted by mbellek_
> <br />Steve, though I agree that most of what we see on the news is sensationalist crap and half-truths spun out of control, when do you see the "top story" about how many trees get cut down in the Amazon? Or how much paper waste the American people produced today? Seriously, when does that happen?



Your right, some of it is sensationalized, and some is true. And the news agencies only focus on what get ratings and not what actually needs to be reported. I recycle all the paper I use, in fact 75% or more of our household trash is recycled.


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## mbellek (Aug 12, 2007)

"Mother Nature" does not knock down more wood than corporations who are in the business of cutting down trees for lumber, paper, etc with large machinery and manpower.


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## great12b4ever (Aug 12, 2007)

Melanie, while I agree with you to a point about indiscriminate cutting of the forests, I am not too worried about the small amounts of wood I use.  There are several links, if you are interested, I will find them and email to you, about people and companies who buy large tracts of land, do selective clearing and planting of Padauk, Cocabolo, Teak, Bubinga, and several other woods.  They allow people like you and me to invest and "buy" trees for them to plant.  They manage and then cull the trees as they grow and either send the wood to you or sell it and send you the money.  There is one in Costa Rica that I have bought some trees and am well pleased with everything so far.  Sorry for the long post, but I really don't think there is an extreme concern at this point.  I read somewhere that less than 5% of the rain forest has been cleared in Brazil, and just read about the government setting aside very large portions that cannot be logged, and have set up a system whereby loggers have the trees and area sleceted for them to harvest.

Rob


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## Russianwolf (Aug 12, 2007)

I purchased a book a while back called The Real Wood Bible that gives you a lot of info on various popular woods used in woodworking. included in that info is the sustainability status of the wood. Whether it is in danger of being depleted or not. For example Ebony is listed as endangered by the IUCN with no evidence of certified supplies. and Lignum-Vitae in listed on the CITES Appendix II which means it's endangered to the extent of being extint in some native areas. 

So find a good source of info on the woods you are interested in and go from there.

Are the forrest being cleared? yep, for various reasons (ranching, cultivation, building, etc.).
Is the impact huge? debatable.
Are some wood species endangered? yes.
Are all imported woods endangered? no.

It's the same here in the states. The American Elm and American Chestnut trees. Nearly gone and not directly though us, but through insects and blight.


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## ahoiberg (Aug 12, 2007)

some harvesters practice sustainable-yield forest management, others don't. unfortunately, it's usually only someone's word that you have to take on it. you could ask the supplier for some sort of verification if you're worried about it. at least if they tell you it's a sustainable practice, the bad karma will be with them and not you. there is a lot of wood out there that you can be sure of coming from good harvesting practice. it's harder to verify that with tropical woods, but guys like gary you can be sure of it (i.e. only harvesting downed/diseased trees). so, if you're really worried about it, stop using tropicals and focus on domestics that you know the origin of.


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## Firefyter-emt (Aug 12, 2007)

I think that if you just look left and see what happens every year over on the left coast as a result of forests NOT being thinned of trees, even DEAD ones and the resulting fires that take out a HUGE portion of live trees, not to mention the polution that goes into the air, you will see that not cutting can cause as much damage and more so than a properly done logging.

How many millions of acres burn down over in Cali every year?? Do you all have any trees left by now?


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## DocStram (Aug 12, 2007)

> _Originally posted by Rifleman1776_
> <br />Don't sweat it. The rain forest 'deforestation' thing is a product of nutso environmentalists. I correspond regularly with an e-friend in Peru who cuts and exports exotic hardwoods. BTW, he cuts responsibly on land he owns. He says that the amount of Amazon region clearing that has ever been done is, in actuality, a relatively small percentage. And, contrary to what the nutsos say, it does regenerate. He regularly takes pictures of cut lands to show progress of regrowth. The reason tropical forests regenerate is because of the simple fact that South American birds to the same thing that birds all over the world do. They poop. It is part of nature's plan. Birds eat fruit and other things, but the seeds pass through the birds undigested and drop indiscriminately where the birds poop. VoilÃ , free planting and new growth.
> I may have posted one of his treatise on this subject here at one time, don't recall. Check out his web site, he may have it there. But bottom line is, don't sweat it. What you are doing, contributing to the poor economy in SA by buying their wood is doing good and your aren't hurting the environment.
> http://www.exoticwoodworld.com/



"Nutso Environmentalists"  "Only a relatively small part of the Amazon region" ????   If I wasn't so appalled at your "liberal" use of sensationalism I'd be laughing.  But, I'm not.  

I reckon there's no such thing as Global Warming ... and, of course, Ozone Depletion is another "myth".

Frank, my friend, you need to find another radio show to listen to besides Rush Limbaugh.


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## Ron in Drums PA (Aug 12, 2007)

Question;

If a man is alone in the woods
and there is no women around to hear him speak
Is he still wrong?

Fact: Never argue with a female tree hugger. Even if she is a wood turner. 
If you want to loose a argument, go argue with your wife. It's safer.

[][}][][]

Ok, ok... so I'm a male tree hugger. I only turn wood from trees that are already downed.  Especially ones that succumb from the deadly virus Chainis Sawis

Edit In:
Did you know that Purpleheart is used for pallets in South America?


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## Rifleman1776 (Aug 12, 2007)

Melainie, I consider myself an environmentalist. I have certain practices that impact lightly on the environment. And I contribute to the wise management of wildlife in my state. (I buy a hunting license). If I can find it again, I'll reference you information stating that all the so-called clearing of Amazon land to date totals about one-fourth (1/4) of what is harvested out of the state of Oregon EACH YEAR. That's not a worrisome rate. There are environmentalists and there are nutsos. BTW, re: the ebony comment. Ebony mostly comes from South Africa. It may be getting overharvested, I really don't know.


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## EeyorIs21 (Aug 12, 2007)

I think that WOOD is a lot easier and cheaper to work with on the whole over PLASTIC. I also believe that most PLASTIC (produced today) is a by-product of fossil fuels. http://www.reachoutmichigan.org/funexperiments/quick/plastic.html

I am sure most woodworkers take some comfort in the fact that they are working with a raw material that is renewable (species aside), certainly more so than fossil fuels. I think the question about the deforestation of the world (not just rain forests) is more about sustainability of the woods that we use. Some grow at a much faster rate and some grow in very small parts of the world under unique conditions (rain forests, tropical jungles, etc.).

I know I personally can only consume a very small amount of material. I also know that thousands of other woodworkers are also using small amounts to and that all this adds up to a lot, probably more than we think. 

Someone mentioned that the logging and use of certain woods helps to boost local economies. We live in a world where money makes the world go round. I would expect that as a particular type of wood became harder to find/log/mill/export/etc that the price would begin to increase, this is basic economics, supply and demand. I also know that if we wait till then (price of a wood species spikes) to do something it is probably too late to reverse any effects of the over harvesting so we must be responsible with our consumption before this happens. Buy the cheap stuff! Not everyone will like the cheap stuff though.

I think there are many PROS and CONs for both WOOD and PLASTIC. I would hope more PROs for WOOD though. ANY material that we use is going to have some impact on our world, some greater than others. Even if we stopped using all exotic materials and stuck with varieties that can grow quickly in most environments (not just rain forest) there would still be some negative impact. 

How many logging operations send out two guys with a manual saw to cut down 1 tree and bring it back to the mill? Does it then get milled by hand also? Iâ€™ll bet they are using chainsaws at least, thatâ€™s gas, which creates greenhouse gasses, which deplete ozone, which raises temperatures, which can effect all life on earth, including growth of future trees. They probably use large machines to move fallen tree(s), thatâ€™s diesel, more green house gasses. The mill, we can hope is electric, but is it solar powered? 

This could go on forever. Thanks all for listening and/or tolerating my opinion, I am certainly no expert.

MELANIE, I did find this link though: http://www.thewoodexplorer.com/client/endangered_species.php

I personally have never worked with any of these species (on endangered list), so far as I know. I also do not recall seeing any of them for sale, especially as pen blanks. A quick look at the vulnerable species listed on this same site did reveal Bloodwood (Brosimum paraense from S. America), which I do believe is commonly sold, or at least a species with the same common name (there are bunch of species generally called Bloodwood which come from Australia). However, I pay about the same price for Bloodwood as I would another species, no inflated prices that I have noticed. There might have been 1 or 2 others, but Bloodwood was the one that jumped out at me. 

On a side note, I remember reading a small article/footnote in a magazine (old issue of Fine Woodworking, I think) about a company that had made a large investment in a new species they engineered and had been growing on a plantation in the South American rainforest on land that had already been deforested. I will look for this reference and post here if I can find it. I am pretty sure I own the issue I saw this article/footnote in.

RON....LMAO(not saying I agree or disagree, just LMAO)


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## EeyorIs21 (Aug 12, 2007)

Found it faster than I thought, was in an old issue of WOOD Magazine that I had dug out for another reason. The product is called Lyptus, which is a registered, by Weyerhaeuser. It was produced as an alternative for people looking for Honduras mahogany. It is a hybrid of Eucalyptus grandis and Eucalyptus urophylla. I found this website: www.lyptus.com ,which just takes you to: http://www.weyerhaeuser.com/ourbusinesses/buildingproducts/lyptus/

I have not used this material myself, but may try to find out where I can lay my hands on some[]


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## mbellek (Aug 12, 2007)

> _Originally posted by Ron in Drums PA_
> <br />Question;
> 
> If a man is alone in the woods
> ...



Ron I certainly hope the "female tree hugger" you're talking about here is not me. As far as I can tell I am the only woman contributing to this thread and I really hope you meant that in a joking way and not as sexist and exclusionary as it could be interpreted. I realize that this is largely a male dominated hobby, but frankly, I find comments about women in that post offensive.

Though I AM female AND a wife, I would not consider myself a "tree hugger" by any means, though I DO try to consider the impact of my actions on the world around me and I realize that the world's resources are not here simply to service the United States. I don't think sweatshop labor and other unscrupulous practices that lead to lower prices at Wal-Mart are okay just because they make life more convenient for me. I try to have a broader view of things than that. On the other hand, I think I made it clear in my previous posts that I am *not* any sort of extremist. Just one person, trying to tread as lightly as I can, and make responsible decisions. One person's actions do not make an impact, no... But we can try to be a part of a positive change in the world--whether we believe that positive change is not using endangered wood for hobby purposes, or hunting deer so that some teenager doesn't get killed when one jumps out in front of his car or whatever.

Nobody is arguing with anyone (I believe the term I used was "politely disagree" & I believe that is how my comments have been structured as well). And no, I did not know they use purpleheart for pallets in South America. That's the whole point you see. I explained very clearly in the original post WHY I'm curious about this topic, and also that I had trouble finding the answers. I did not start this thread to bash purpleheart or ebony turning... I was simply asking for information. I was unable to find much out about these exotic woods other than where to buy them.

PS: Also, I'm sorry to be so preachy, but I take serious issue with being dismissed as a "female tree hugger" just for a simple question like that.


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## DocStram (Aug 12, 2007)

Melanie ..... first let me say that I'm on your side on this one .. completely. 

I also realize that you're still a relatively new IAP member.  As you are seeing .... things can get very interesting around here.  From time to time, some pretty outrageous things get said (case in point: Frank's comments "nutso environmentalists" comment).  Having stirred up the pot myself, from time to time, I am confident in saying that we all consider ourselves a family. We value you as an IAP member and, you are quickly becoming a respected and treasured member of the IAP Family.  

As far as Ron's comments about being a female tree-hugger .... I would take that as an honor and a compliment.  They don't come any finer than Ron in Drums. (Sorry Cav and Bill and Dario and Scott and .... )  Besides, he self identifies as a "Male Tree-Hugger".  No harm, no foul.  Really.        []

By the way, I tried to pm you but you don't have an email addy given. PM me when you have a chance. 

Best wishes ....


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## Ron in Drums PA (Aug 12, 2007)

See I knew I would loose.

PS, It's all in jest Melanie[]


Edit IN

There are a few women turners I have great admiration for. Cindy Drozk, Carol Valentine and Jennifer (I wish I could remember her last name) quickly come to mind.

From one tree hugger to another, Happy Turning.


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## Poppy (Aug 12, 2007)

Shame on ya Ron, Its Jennifer Shirley.[}][]
She is indeed one talented lady as are the others you mentioned.[]


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## mbellek (Aug 12, 2007)

Well, Ron, as long as you are a fellow tree hugger, your sexism is okay then, I guess. [:X]

But seriously though, all I was ever interested in was whether or not the comment that I read had any validity to it...


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## mdburn_em (Aug 12, 2007)

Melanie,
I think you have to decide if human nature is changeable.
(I don't think it is.)

If it's not, then some of the the wood that gets sent here is going to be illegal and will have been cut where it shouldn't have been.  We get a lot of wood from SE Asia.  There is some talk going on about some of the countries governments(members) allowing family members to cut more wood than should be allowed.  They're using their positions of influence to take what they shouldn't.  People being people, I believe it will happen in South America as well.  Will it all be that way?  Of course not.  

You found Frank's opinion offensive.  Right or wrong, he at least has cultivated a relationship he trusts and has formed his own opinion of the truth.

If it's important to you, you will need to find a source you can trust  that will only sell wood that is taken with consideration for the environment.  You may lose the use of some of the wood you like, but you have to make a choice.


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## Russianwolf (Aug 12, 2007)

pallets are made from whatever is cheapest in the area. I've run across cherry pallets in WV. They aren't made form anything special(mostly sapwood), but cherry is cherry.

Purpleheart is a rather common SA wood and according to my book has not been listed as threatened. If there are any others that any one is curious about, and if my book contains them, I'll let you know what it says.

Oh, and I'm not entirely innocent. I have some Irish Bog Oak that I know takes quite a bit of time to replenish.


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## mbellek (Aug 13, 2007)

Whoa Whoa Whoa! It was not Frank who said all the stuff about women and tree huggers and wives and stuff!! THAT is what I was talking about finding offensive! NOTHING that Frank said--just wanna keep that straight! And it's all sorted out now.

Again, I was just wondering if the comment I read about only using birch and not exotics was an issue of valid concern. IS there concern over how some exotics are obtained? And if so, what are the concerns? Are they environmental? Are they labor/human rights violation concerns? Something I don't even know about?

Mike, I'm curious about Padauk too... Anything?

Frank, I was looking at your buddy's website, and the animal rescue thing is really really cool. I am glad you shared that with me and am thinking about making my next purchase from them. I'm all about the widdle animals!! []


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## Gary Max (Aug 13, 2007)

Thanks to everyone who bought the monster blocks of Cherry.
This is all recycled ---mother nature knocked the tree down.
They ship this morning.


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## ToolRest (Aug 13, 2007)

I think the biggest danger in South American rainforests is the clearing of land for agriculture. It's a huge and growing industry in Brazil (http://news.mongabay.com/2005/0822-la_times_amazon.html), and sadly much of the clearance appears to be done by burning. So we probably do more damage by consuming orange, soy, beef, sugar....

In other parts of the world rainforests are cut for pallets and low grade plywood, much of which is used once and trashed.

In some respects it is better to show that there is real value in the forests, so purchasing these materials is probably a better option than eating beefburgers. On the other hand it is somewhat like saving ducks so they can be shot at.

Organisations such as the Rainforest Alliance work to ensure harvesting is done sustainably, and to manage the supply chain. Ask your suppliers about how they procure their material, and ask your government if they control imports in any way.


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## Ron in Drums PA (Aug 13, 2007)

> _Originally posted by mbellek_
> <br />Well, Ron, as long as you are a fellow tree hugger, your sexism is okay then, I guess. [:X]
> 
> But seriously though, all I was ever interested in was whether or not the comment that I read had any validity to it...



From one sexist to another, truce.

If you re-read my first post I gave you some info about purpleheart. In S.A. it is considered the same as we consider Pine.

As for Ebony, the African governments are getting smart. They are going to start restricting the export of ebony to only finished goods.






Here is a photo of 16 tons of ebony, inside that building is another 30 or so tons

I don't have much info on padauk except to say it is not a highly valued wood.

Seriously, if you are having problems turning hair pins from wood maybe you should start using acrylics, which just might be more detrimental to the environment, but we are just splitting hairs here.  

Also, paper that is produced in the states comes from either managed farms or from the cut offs of timber that is used in construction. Also recycled paper is more harmful to the environment. Why? Becuase the bleach that is used to whiten the paper is very toxic. Where do you think they dump the used bleach? But the nutso environmentalists loves the stuff because less waste is place into landfills.




<center>Enjoy and do a good turn today</center>


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## mbellek (Aug 13, 2007)

So I'm thinking this person probably just heard that some of the common exotics are from South America or tropical Africa and said "Oh I better not use that" without having any definitive proof... Because I can't seem to find any. 

That's all I wanted to know! Thanks to everyone who suggested some reading on the subject, I'll look for those books!


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## mbellek (Aug 13, 2007)

> _Originally posted by Gary Max_
> <br />Thanks to everyone who bought the monster blocks of Cherry.
> This is all recycled ---mother nature knocked the tree down.
> They ship this morning.



If you did an ad in the Classified forum, that might be a better place to make that announcement... The people who bought it might have a better chance of seeing it.


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## Rifleman1776 (Aug 13, 2007)

I had a nice, fairly long, response to all this written. Just as I cliked to post, my internet service conked out. If I get my ambitions back, I'll try to re-write it.


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## Russianwolf (Aug 13, 2007)

Hey Melanie

African Padauk is pretty plentiful and safe (not listed as vulnerable). Andaman Padauk (Sourced from the Indian Ocean Region) is much rarer according to this book.


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## mbellek (Aug 13, 2007)

Thanks Mike.

Ron, Whaddya mean they are going to restrict to finished products? No more exporting turning blocks, you mean? There is still ebony in other parts of the world, isn't there? When is this supposed to happen?

I don't really have a problem with turning wood in general.. I just wanted to gather some info on the subject because I noticed another person made mention of making a point of using non-exotics. That doesn't mean I take issue with ALL wood in general (I certainly picked a bad hobby if I did!) For example, I don't think wearing diamonds is inherently wrong, but if I were going to buy a diamond, I would buy from one of the Canadian diamond mines that has a certified chain of custody thing so you know they are not "blood diamonds".


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## Ron in Drums PA (Aug 13, 2007)

Melanie

Madagascar (which has the best ebony) is already doing it. So far they are exporting only fingerboards (for guitars) and carvings

Gaboon (sp) is on the verge of starting. Very little ebony has left the country this year.

For Africa it's a smart move, it stinks for the rest of us. 

The best ebony mostly comes from Africa, although India has some nice stuff too, but their forests are almost depleted.


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## mbellek (Aug 14, 2007)

So if I want to turn ebony, should I stock up?


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## EeyorIs21 (Aug 14, 2007)

If you are going to turn ebony, be sure to wear mask and have good dust collection or at least a fan with lots of gusto behind you. I have heard that dust from ebony can be toxic to the lungs.

http://www.riparia.org/toxic_woods.htm


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## mbellek (Aug 14, 2007)

I do all of that anyway because I turn a lot of dymondwood.


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## ed4copies (Aug 14, 2007)

Wisconsin does very few things well, however, the U of W at Madison is considered an expert source on forestry.

If you have specifie questions, send them an e-mail.  My tax money will give you an answer (one of the FEW good uses of my tax money!!!)

Politically neutral, but with a 4.5 billion year old planet, I don't think I can do much that will make it happier or unhappier.  One blast from a good volcano and we are ALL extinct.  Don't believe it, ask any dinosaur you run into.  (They were bigger and stronger than man!! - They are still DEAD!)

FWIW[:0][:0][:0][:0][:0]


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## mbellek (Aug 16, 2007)

LOL Ed! Point well taken! But wait, surely someone will come along and tell us that according to the bible the earth is only 5,000 years old right? Seems you can hardly talk about anything without it turning into either a political or religious question, can you?

I had no idea this would turn into such a political discussion!! Oh well.


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## MesquiteMan (Aug 16, 2007)

> _Originally posted by mbellek_
> <br />I had no idea this would turn into such a political discussion!! Oh well.



Uhm, don't mention the word political or I will have to lock this topic.[]

(in case you missed it, politics and religion are not permitted to be discussed here at IAP.)


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## DocStram (Aug 16, 2007)

Actually, things became political when Frank sensationalized matters with his unfortunate "nutso environmentalist" comment.


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## wdcav1952 (Aug 16, 2007)

Can we ask Ed the age of the world?  I think he has been around for most of it! [}][]


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## ed4copies (Aug 16, 2007)

While my wit and wisdom  is, indeed eternal, I fear I have only lived on this planet for 6 one-millionths of a PERCENT of its life.  We are ALL pretty INSIGNIFICANT.

Mother earth will outlive US, by more millions of years.

Although many feel otherwise!!!  They are FAR less significant than the proverbial gnat on an elephant's anatomy!!![:0][:0][:0]


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## DocStram (Aug 16, 2007)

> _Originally posted by ed4copies_
> <br />While my wit and wisdom  is, indeed eternal, I fear I have only lived on this planet for 6 one-millionths of a PERCENT of its life.  We are ALL pretty INSIGNIFICANT.
> 
> Mother earth will outlive US, by more millions of years.
> ...



Geeezzeee ed .... up until this morning I was feeling pretty dang important.  But, now, after listening to you and Cav .... I'm back to being nothing.  Oh well.  []


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## ed4copies (Aug 16, 2007)

In the words of that apolitical, areligious philosopher Ed Brown:  "Thou are dirt and to dirt thou shalt return!"  

Trees in the forest grow, die and turn back to dirt.  Make it a pen and someday it will be in a landfill and turn back to dirt, then grow again to form a NEW tree.  The earth doesn't need our help and we don't have the ability to change ITS cycle of life and death.  

We are ALL insignificant.  (Well, except me, I'm a legend in my own mind!!!)[][][][]




Oh, and Al, You are SOMETHING to your wife and kids --- hopefully Something GOOD!!!  Your life gains value with every life you affect positively.[][]


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## leehljp (Aug 16, 2007)

> _Originally posted by mbellek_
> <br />rOther than Wiki, I have had a hard time coming by any information...
> Does that bother anyone else? Anyone know anything about the subject?
> Melanie



Melanie,

The first thing you should NOT trust is Wiki. Even the moderate and slightly left slanted CNN says that Wiki goes overboard in its revisionist history - by letting articles get edited by the general public. 
Two sites to read up on how "revisions" are allowable are here and here!

How deep this goes is anyone's guess, and it seems to becoming prevalent. The key is how much one is "really" looking for truth. I wouldn't trust just one source, or a source that quotes the first source. Responsible journalism is all but gone and far too many people approve that!


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## Ron in Drums PA (Aug 16, 2007)

Hank

Most colleges in the USA do not allow their students to list Wiki as a source on their papers/reports for the same reason you describe.


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## DocStram (Aug 16, 2007)

> _Originally posted by Ron in Drums PA_
> <br />Hank
> 
> Most colleges in the USA do not allow their students to list Wiki as a source on their papers/reports for the same reason you describe.



I'd never allow one of my students to use Wiki as a source ... nor would I allow Fox News.


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## ToolRest (Aug 16, 2007)

> _Originally posted by ed4copies_
> <br />
> The earth doesn't need our help and we don't have the ability to change ITS cycle of life and death.



Wouldn't that be wonderful it were true? But lets just go ask a passenger pigeon or a dodo for their opinion.


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## ed4copies (Aug 16, 2007)

Species come and species go, that has been evolution for thousands of years.

We could be next.


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## Ron in Drums PA (Aug 16, 2007)

Hey Ed, I think he called you a dodo


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## ed4copies (Aug 16, 2007)

> _Originally posted by Ron in Drums PA_
> <br />Hey Ed, I think he called you a dodo



He's not very perceptive - "birdbrain" might be more accurate.


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## ed4copies (Aug 16, 2007)

Most of the species that have survived the earth's disasters did so underwater.  So, if I tell you, "Go jump in a lake!", it is just an attempt to help you be a survivor.

You're Welcome!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Ron in Drums PA (Aug 16, 2007)

> _Originally posted by ed4copies_
> <br />Most of the species that have survived the earth's disasters did so underwater.  So, if I tell you, "Go jump in a lake!", it is just an attempt to help you be a survivor.
> 
> You're Welcome!!!!!!!!!!!




LOL

I need to remember that one


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## rovercat (Aug 16, 2007)

I agree with Frank and I do not listen to Rush. If the nutso tree huggers stayed home the west would not be burning down right now. I wounder how many of these folks live in a stick house, sit on nice wood furniture.

There are more trees is some areas that in all of history yet every one thinks we need to plant more. 

As for global warming. In the 70 s there was panic over global cooling.

Ever wounder why the named that ice covered place Greenland.


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## Rojo22 (Aug 16, 2007)

> _Originally posted by DocStram_
> <br />
> 
> 
> ...



LOL...I have some teachers that say the same thing about CNN...ABC...CBS....NBC....I guess it all depends on which side of the boat your dipping your oar......

Has anyone read the corrections to the "Global Warming" numbers?  Very interesting that the numbers have now been corrected, that the last 10 years dont even register in the top 50 of the hottest years on record....1934 is now listed as the hottest year in the last 100....


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## mbellek (Aug 16, 2007)

> _Originally posted by leehljp_
> <br />
> 
> 
> ...



I was not "trusting" wiki... The point of mentioning it at all was that I could not find a better source.


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## mbellek (Aug 16, 2007)

> _Originally posted by MesquiteMan_
> <br />
> 
> 
> ...



I believe you've missed my point. The point of that statement was that I did not INTEND it as a political question in the first place! I didn't realize that whether or not a tree is endangered can somehow involve personal politics!! (For me, it doesn't but I guess for others it apparently can.)

So, in all seriousness-- are you saying I'm not even allowed to USE the word at all?? I'm sure that is probably how you monitor for topics that contain "forbidden" content, by using it as a search term... So are we not even supposed to use the P or R word?


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## Ron in Drums PA (Aug 16, 2007)

Melanie

Don't let it get to you so easy. 

Here have a drink on me


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## Ron in Drums PA (Aug 16, 2007)

> _Originally posted by rovercat_
> <br />Ever wounder why the named that ice covered place Greenland.



And did you ever wonder why Iceland is green?

Someone got their maps mixed up, just like Vespucciland was given the wrong name, some guy named Amerigo Vespucci, wrote his name on a map and it was thought that was the name of the continent.

I know this to be true because I read it on Wiki!


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## mbellek (Aug 16, 2007)

> _Originally posted by Ron in Drums PA_
> <br />Melanie
> 
> Don't let it get to you so easy.
> ...



No I'm not mad... I guess those two posts do sound a little short. Not because of this... Actually I'm upset about my spindle gouge... 

The two posts on here were not meant to sound as irritated as they do. 

That was a wide-open opportunity for a very SEXIST comment, Ron. I'm proud of you! (Now THAT was a joke!!!! [])


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## Ron in Drums PA (Aug 16, 2007)

> _Originally posted by mbellek_
> That was a wide-open opportunity for a very SEXIST comment, Ron. I'm proud of you! (Now THAT was a joke!!!! [])



Yeah... I'm proud of being a sexist!

Go ahead, say something... give me another chance!
I'll get it right this time![]


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## MesquiteMan (Aug 16, 2007)

> _Originally posted by mbellek_
> [brSo, in all seriousness-- are you saying I'm not even allowed to USE the word at all?? I'm sure that is probably how you monitor for topics that contain "forbidden" content, by using it as a search term... So are we not even supposed to use the P or R word?



Melanie,

It was a joke.  Didn't you notice the smiley face![]  If I had been posting a real warning you would have known it.  We certainly don't have any sophisticated means of monitoring the posts here other than simply reading them.  You did give me an idea, though!  I never thought to do searches on key words that offensive posts would likely have.  Wow, now I can find bad threads and lock them even faster!  (that is a joke, btw[])


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## mbellek (Aug 16, 2007)

> _Originally posted by Ron in Drums PA_
> <br />
> 
> 
> ...



Men don't know how to get anything RIGHT!!! What are you talking about?! [:X]


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## mbellek (Aug 16, 2007)

> _Originally posted by MesquiteMan_
> <br />
> 
> 
> ...



Nah, dude *I* was serious! I figured that probably would be how you monitor posts. It's how *I* would in your shoes. 

So, MesquiteMan, who are you voting for?

[xx(]


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