# Finish Feel



## C_Ludwigsen (Sep 27, 2004)

*** Update ***  I need to retract some of this thread.  At the time this was originally posted, a dermatologist was suggesting tht CA was giving me hives.  An allergist has since changed that opinion.  I now use CA finishes almost exclusively (again).  The original post was about the feel of non-CA finishes and that is still valid.  The distraction about these dang hives is pulled.  Thanks Eagle, for pointing this out.
*** Update ***

I wanted to kick off a new thread since I'm on this quest for non-CA finishes.

I've recently switched to using lacquer for the finish, but like CA, it is more of a shell over the wood.

What approaches for finishes - materials and technique - would you suggest where people like the feel of the wood?  I'm still looking for something that will last longer than basic friction polish, but something that will tell you the pen is real wood.

Your thoughts?

Chuck.


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## DCBluesman (Sep 27, 2004)

Chuck...I'm not much of a fan of the plastic finishes, so I too have been looking for a long lasting finish for wood.  I've been in contact with a few furniture manufacturers along with a few companies that do specialty (high-end) wood craft as a part of their job (boat builders, for one).  They all express the same frustration as we do and they expect it to get worse as the EPA continues to restrict more and more chemicals.

That being said, a number of them have also indicated that customer education is becoming more important.  The customers need to know that the new "old" finishes require the care of fine antiques, such as regular cleaning with a clean, damp cloth folowed by a regular overcoat of a wax of some sort.  Most I talked to had not heard of Renaissance Wax, but several indicated a desire to try it.

My best thoughts for now lie in trying to improve the way I use the non-plastic finishes.  I'm currently working on a multi-step friction-finish process to attempt to get most of the result there.  That would be followed by carnauba or Renaissance.  Once I've done enough of these to really know the results, I'll put the details in here.

Good luck and keep looking!


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## tipusnr (Sep 27, 2004)

Keep up the good work, gentlemen.  I will be eagerly reading your postings as I, too, prefer both the texture and look of polished wood.


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## DCBluesman (Sep 27, 2004)

I just received an email from a supplier of wooden interior components who supplies a luxury car manufacturer.

_You do know the waxes are not permanent and could wear away? Perspiration will degrade the wax. Especially the Carnauba. 

It might be all right if the customer knows they should reapply the wax several times a year if the pen is used a lot. (Actually kinda neat) It's just like a car. _

I will be working with them over the next few weeks on finishes and will keep the group posted.


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## C_Ludwigsen (Sep 27, 2004)

Fantastic, Lou.  I look forward to the results.  I knew that Carnauba would wear off, but didn't know how quickly.  I know we use it for its hardness.  I take a swipe across the pen with a carnauba block after buffing the finish and then run the lathe high and buff that with a soft cloth - semi-burnishing it in.

I'm hoping Russ chimes in on this one as well.

I used a Behlens product called Master Wood Finish for the first time last night on a Boxelder bowl.  It put a nice high gloss finish on it pretty quick, but I want to hit it with OOOO steel wool to even out some marks and then polish with paste wax.  I'm not sure how well it would hold up against daily hand use on a pen.

Chuck


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## jwoodwright (Oct 10, 2004)

I've tried Behlen's Friction Polish, Crystal Coat and even a Homemade  one ala Russ.  None last without maintenance.[]


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## Old Griz (Oct 10, 2004)

Have never seen a finish that lasted without some kind of maintenance... I package my pens with a piece of paper telling the customer the type of wood and plating and a recommendation that they periodically wax the pen to maintain the gloss finish... 
Most customers do not seem to understand that they really are buying wood and it needs to be maintained the same as their furniture...


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## wicook (Mar 12, 2005)

I've tried several finishes and prefer the look and feel of those that preserve some of the aesthetics of a wooden pen. I start with 2 to 3 coats of shellac as a sanding sealer (after sanding to at least 1500), then 4 to 5 coats of Shellawax or Crystal Coat (make sure it gets hot!), and finally a coating of Renaisssance Wax that I buff by hand. I'm finding that finish lasts for quite some time (2 to 3 months without much wear so far). I have been telling people to use a good wax-based furniture polish to keep up the shine. So far, so good.


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## coach (Mar 12, 2005)

Hey Griz,
Could you share what you tell people?  I might be going to my first show in about a month and thought I might make a sign as well as a small piece of paper to inform about maintaining the finish.


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## ctEaglesc (Mar 12, 2005)

> _Originally posted by C_Ludwigsen_
> <br />*** Update ***  I need to retract some of this thread.  At the time this was originally posted, a dermatologist was suggesting tht CA was giving me hives.  An allergist has since changed that opinion.  I now use CA finishes almost exclusively (again).  The original post was about the feel of non-CA finishes and that is still valid.  The distraction about these dang hives is pulled.  Thanks Eagle, for pointing this out.
> *** Update ***
> 
> ...


I have posted many times how satisfied I am with the Mylands 3 step system that Jason at Woodturningz put me on to.
I have found I can vary the amount of finish I put on the pen by cutting back the amount of high build polish.
I am always striving to capture the CA "look" but the sanding sealer based finish is much quicker and flawless in application.


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## RussFairfield (Mar 12, 2005)

You asked me, so here it is. 

I have only four (4) things to say about finishing, whether it is pens or anything else made from wood. I know that none of this is what anyone wants to hear because making pens is all about FAST. 

1. Quick and durable ARE NOT mutually inclusive properties of a finish on a piece of wood. Finishing takes time, and the better the finish, the more time it takes.

2. The surface finish can be no better than that of the wood under it.

3. There is no one finish that will do everything we want from a finish. Everything we do is a compromise to accent the properties we want, and hopefully minimize those we don't.

For this discussion, there is a 4th one:
4. The lesser the finish, the more it will have the look and feel of wood. When taken to the same level of polish, bare wood looks and feels more like wood than a CA glue.

Explanation:
Number 2, the wood surface is the most important ingredient of the finish. The wood should be polished to where it doesn't need a finish before we put anything on it. That means sanding to AT LEAST 1000-grit, and I recommend nothing less than 12,000 Micro-Mesh, or the equivalent grocery-bag paper that I use. 

The finish that will wear the longest is the one that puts a surface film with the most abrasion resistance on the surface. Wax is the fastest, but least durable. Plastics such as acrylics (CA glue), epoxies, melamines, etc. are the most durable. They are also the hardest and most brittle, (brittle and hard go together) and the most subject to impact damage or cracking due to wood movement. They can be the most difficult to apply. They also have the least feel of the wood, are the most difficult to repair, and have a wear pattern that results in fine surface scratches that dull the finish with time.

If you want fast, there is nothing faster than stopping at the highly polished bare wood and then adding the protection of a good wax. Carnauba is the hardest, but Microcrystalline (Renaissance) is the least damaged by the acids in our body oils. It looks good when new, but it is the least durable finish we can put on a piece of wood. Fortunately, wax is easy to repair. 

In our rush to put something ON the wood, we too often forget that wood itself can provide us with a good finish. I would suggest that everyone try a bare wood finish ONE TIME before telling me it is not a viable finish for a piece of wood. A lot will depend on the hardness of the wood itself, but left to itself, the no-finish will polish the wood and keep it oiled from use. It may not look as good as the high gloss of the plastic when it is new, but in the end it will probably look better because used wood looks a lot better than a used plastic. 

Varnish resins may be the best compromise available. They will take  a high gloss, look like wood, have the warm feel of wood. To use Lou's analogy to the automotive industry, there is nothing that looks better than the wood dash and trim in an old Jaguar or Rolls, and that is varnished wood. Depending on the resin, it can have excellent wear resistance over time. 

Penturners have almost totally ignored the varnish resins as a finish because they ARE NOT fast. In fact, they may take the longest to apply of anything that we can put on the wood. Twelve (12) coats of Waterlox will give an unbelievable gloss, and it will have the durability of the phenolic resins; but it is going to take at least 12 days to put it on the wood. Add another month to that for the finish to fully cure before we start using the pen, and we are talking about a long time to finish a pen. 

We use a lot of lacquer and shellac because they are high gloss clear finishes that are easy to apply. And some of us are dipping with the lacquer because that is even faster. What all of the instructions fail to mention is that it will take at least a week (2 is better) for a lacquer to even get close to its full hardness; and that it will take several months for shellac. Ask a custom car painter how long they wait before buffing and polishing a lacquer finish. I guarantee that they are not driving it on the street that same afternoon; and that is just what we are trying to do with a pen.

As for the durability of shellac, just remember that the classic violin finish is a spirit varnish, and that means a shellac. Durability?? These folks are talking about a 300-year finish on a musical instrument that is to be used. Yes, they use other resins to make the shellac harder, more durable, and more resistant to wear. They do not add waxes and oils to make them fast, and these shellac finishes take months to years to apply.

In conclusion - Finishing takes TIME, and the better the finish, the longer it takes. Until we are ready to invest the require time, we will never be happy with anything we put on a pen. So, we continue to use our FAST finishes, remove the pen barrels and start handling them before they have a chance to cool, and then complain about there not being a durable finish for a pen.

Yes, pens can be fast, but better pens take longer, and the best pen will take a long time.


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## DCBluesman (Mar 12, 2005)

Amen.


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## wdcav1952 (Mar 12, 2005)

Thanks Russ, you always are a breath of reality in our microwave world.


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## opfoto (Mar 12, 2005)

Thanks for a very informative take on finishing.


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## JimGo (Mar 12, 2005)

Interesting, thanks Russ!  Maybe I'll just have to try a good varnish on a pen or two and see how I like 'em.  I have a background in computers, so I tend to think of things that taken longer than a few minutes as being too slow, but in this instance, it seems like the wait will be worth it.  Plus, I can try out some of the other finishes in the mean time!

Thanks for the great info!


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## Deere41h (Mar 12, 2005)

Russ.....Thank you for a voice of reason.  You have hit the nail or pen on the head.  Good finishes take time and the best finishes take more time.  I have seen wood that is finished with hand oils and it can be very beautiful.  Thanks again for you insight.


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## timdaleiden (Mar 12, 2005)

Thank you Russ, for once again offering wisdom where it is needed. 

  I have a question though. On a bare, polished wood pen, would a clear, or natural stain, be a viable alternative to wax, or at least a good additional step? 

  I guess I am asking if Renaissance wax, by itself, offers a proper seal for the wood. I ask, because I really don't know. I do know that wood that is not sealed, will more than likely crack.


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## Gary (Mar 13, 2005)

Thanks, Russ for your input. Many of us look forward to your posts.

I would question, however, the recommendation that one sand a pen to 12,000 MM before finishing. A review of the literature on wood finishing will reveal that sanding beyond +/- 400 grit before finishing is seldom if ever recommended.

Beyond about 800 grit your are just burnishing the wood, IMHO. I would question how well a finish will adhere to highly polished wood. Any finish needs something to "grip" for proper adhesion. Granted the initial finish will look fine, but if the wood is too highly polished you run the risk of the finish lifting.

I'm coming to this topic from years of furniture making. Sam Maloof's beautiful museum quality furniture pieces were never sanded to this degree before finishing. High-end, lacquer-finished stringed musical instruments aren't either. Their beauty comes from how the finish is polished not how the wood is burnished.  So, I would ask why are pens different? Why sand/burnish to 12000 MM unless you are going to just finish with wax?


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