# Craft Supply Email



## beck3906 (Oct 10, 2013)

I received an email from Craft Supply with new product listings.  It was interesting to see they now carry the PSI bolt action pen kit.


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## walshjp17 (Oct 10, 2013)

It is probably a lot less expensive to be a licensed dealer than it is to design and market their own version.  PSI supposedly has a patent on their version.

Sent from my iPad using Forum Runner


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## alphageek (Oct 10, 2013)

walshjp17 said:


> It is probably a lot less expensive to be a licensed dealer than it is to design and market their own version.  PSI supposedly has a patent on their version.  Sent from my iPad using Forum Runner



Actually it's weirder than that because they are marketing it side by side with another version at about the same price.   Definitely an interesting marketing scenario.


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## Dan Masshardt (Oct 10, 2013)

Has craftsupplies ever sold something from psi?    That's strange in itself.    And why introduce them at the same time?  I'm glad there are more places to buy and options to buy but...  Still scratching my head.    I don't see the dual offering lasting long.   Maybe...


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## Dale Allen (Oct 10, 2013)

I don't think it is the PSI version.
The PSI pen has a clip resembling a rifle with a scope.
The one from CSUSA has a lever action rifle, like a Winchester.
I'm no expert but it seems the bullet style doesn't fit that rifle style.


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## Dan Masshardt (Oct 10, 2013)

Dale Allen said:


> I don't think it is the PSI version. The PSI pen has a clip resembling a rifle with a scope. The one from CSUSA has a lever action rifle, like a Winchester. I'm no expert but it seems the bullet style doesn't fit that rifle style.


  There are two.  One of them is called the PSI Bolt Action.

http://www.woodturnerscatalog.com/p/1/-/1/1/-/5988/PSI-Bolt-Action-Pen-Kit


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## Whaler (Oct 10, 2013)

The one has an oddball bolt on it and a lever action clip it seems like I have seen it before but can't figure out where.
Wouldn't think CSUSA would touch a PSI product with a 10 pole.


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## Dan Masshardt (Oct 10, 2013)

Whaler said:


> The one has an oddball bolt on it and a lever action clip it seems like I have seen it before but can't figure out where. Wouldn't think CSUSA would touch a PSI product with a 10 pole.


  I'm guessing that the clip and actual bolt handle were changed to get around the patent.    I'm wondering if they had two different irons in the fire (their own design and a deal with psi) and they both came to fruition.  

I bet they didn't tell psi they were getting their own version.  ;-)


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## ed4copies (Oct 10, 2013)

alphageek said:


> walshjp17 said:
> 
> 
> > It is probably a lot less expensive to be a licensed dealer than it is to design and market their own version.  PSI supposedly has a patent on their version.  Sent from my iPad using Forum Runner
> ...



Gee, who have we seen do that before????
Berea, CSUSA, PSI all on one site???  (Which we referred to as "one stop shop")

Guess we are teaching old dogs some new tricks:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

Or creating copy cats!!


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## Smitty37 (Oct 10, 2013)

Whaler said:


> The one has an oddball bolt on it and a lever action clip it seems like I have seen it before but can't figure out where.
> Wouldn't think CSUSA would touch a PSI product with a 10 pole.


 It's from Dayacom


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## Whaler (Oct 10, 2013)

So much for the patent theory. 
http://www.penturners.org/forum/f18/bolt-action-kit-comparison-112287/


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## Dan Masshardt (Oct 10, 2013)

Wasn't that deal that it's a us patent?  Therefore timberbits in AU doesn't apply for sales outside USA   Craftsupplies (USA) is obviously in USA.


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## Whaler (Oct 10, 2013)

Dan Masshardt said:


> Wasn't that deal that it's a us patent?  Therefore timberbits in AU doesn't apply for sales outside USA   Craftsupplies (USA) is obviously in USA.



Timberbits sells that kit to USA customers which is fine with me. I have them in my shop as well as a couple of the PSI kits. The Timberbits kit is cheaper but not quite a nice as the PSI kit but for $4.00 less it's a great kit.


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## NittanyLion (Oct 10, 2013)

I don't know either....but just ordered 3 this morning


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## Smitty37 (Oct 10, 2013)

Whaler said:


> Dan Masshardt said:
> 
> 
> > Wasn't that deal that it's a us patent? Therefore timberbits in AU doesn't apply for sales outside USA Craftsupplies (USA) is obviously in USA.
> ...


It is the importer who is violating the US Patent.  I can get them too and sell them for less than Timberbits, but I would be the one responsible - not the overseas source.


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## Dan Masshardt (Oct 10, 2013)

NittanyLion said:


> I don't know either....but just ordered 3 this morning



You are in charge of reviewing them for the rest of us.


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## ed4copies (Oct 10, 2013)

Dan Masshardt said:


> Wasn't that deal that it's a us patent?  Therefore timberbits in AU doesn't apply for sales outside USA   Craftsupplies (USA) is obviously in USA.




IF you purchase them for shipment to the USA, you are violating the patent law, IF anyone is!!  It is the responsibility of the importer to be certain the product is legal to purchase in the USA.


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## Leatherman1998 (Oct 11, 2013)

ed4copies said:


> IF you purchase them for shipment to the USA, you are violating the patent law, IF anyone is!!  It is the responsibility of the importer to be certain the product is legal to purchase in the USA.



So could I buy 150 (random number) bolt actions from dayacom and make them for my self? 
Random thoughts.

Levi Woodard 
Sent from my DROID RAZR using Forum Runner


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## LagniappeRob (Oct 11, 2013)

Uh... 

The description says: 





> Made by PSI



As for the other pen. PSI's patent is a design patent not a functional patent. This has been discussed here before. A design patent patent covers the particular design elements... not functional - such as using a bolt as a click mechanism.


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## walshjp17 (Oct 11, 2013)

It should read "Made *for* PSI".  PSI's kits are made in the Orient.


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## Smitty37 (Oct 11, 2013)

Leatherman1998 said:


> ed4copies said:
> 
> 
> > IF you purchase them for shipment to the USA, you are violating the patent law, IF anyone is!! It is the responsibility of the importer to be certain the product is legal to purchase in the USA.
> ...


The bolt pen that Dayacom sells would not be under PSI's Patent so you could buy them --- Dayacom might not sell you 150 as that might not meet their MOQ. But you can import them, use them, sell them, give them away or whatever..

The bolt action from Timberbits or another that looks like the PSI kit, on the other hand, you violate PSI's Patent by importing them, whether you use them yourself, sell them, give them away.


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## ed4copies (Oct 11, 2013)

While Smitty MAY be CORRECT in his legal opinion, PSI MAY disagree.

IF you brought anything into the country and PSI thinks it violates their copyrights, patents or trademarks, they have every right to start a legal action against you.

Then, right or wrong, you will need to hire an attorney and prepare for battle.

If you find a cheap attorney, you MAY be able to keep this under $10 grand, but I doubt it.  And it will eat up dozens of hours of your time.  

Is a couple buck saving really  worth the gamble???

BTW, PSI has been in business for over two decades and sells millions of dollars per year.  $10 grand is a drop in the ocean for him----I doubt many of us are in that same economic condition.

When you decide to battle with someone, it is always a good idea to make sure you both have access to the same weapons====battling with PSI, you better have a very large bank account.

FWIW,
Ed

Additional note Dawn mentions:  Even CSUSA decided to get PSI's blessing.  CSUSA has ALSO been in business over 3 decades and COULD afford to battle PSI.  But, they chose NOT TO!!  Why do you suppose that might be???    (It is the less expensive strategy)


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## Smitty37 (Oct 11, 2013)

walshjp17 said:


> It should read "Made *for* PSI". PSI's kits are made in the Orient.


 The label on each pen kit bag will say where it was made....could be China or Taiwan.


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## Smitty37 (Oct 11, 2013)

ed4copies said:


> While Smitty MAY be CORRECT in his legal opinion, PSI MAY disagree.
> 
> IF you brought anything into the country and PSI thinks it violates their copyrights, patents or trademarks, they have every right to start a legal action against you.
> 
> ...


 Ed that was an opinionnot a LEGAL opinion....I can tell you the speed limit without it becoming a legal opinion, even if I warn you against it and tell you what the penalty is.:biggrin::biggrin:

Given what you've just said Ed, do you think CSUSA would sell the PSI version to AVOID a patent infringment lawsuit then put another pen kit violating that same patent on display for sale right next to it?

The Artisan Lock 'n Load is the Dayacom version.  In my opinion, no one would ever mistake it for the PSI kit - it does not look like it.  The function is also a bit different but no one would confuse the knob with PSI's bolt and no one would confuse the completely out of place lever action clip (they should have a WW II M1 rifle clip to go with the action) with PSI's bolt action rifle clip.


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## beck3906 (Oct 11, 2013)

What will be fun to watch is the next PSI catalog.  I wonder if it will list Craft Supply kits.


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## ed4copies (Oct 11, 2013)

Smitty37 said:


> ed4copies said:
> 
> 
> > While Smitty MAY be CORRECT in his legal opinion, PSI MAY disagree.
> ...



The scenario I can picture is CSUSA calling Ed Levy and working out an agreement where Ed will not pursue CSUSA as long as both are displayed and Ed gets royalties (at least on HIS, possibly on both).  CSUSA understands the cost of litigation and would be very smart to negotiate a gentleman's agreement to avoid a legal battle.

I would call that a smart business decision for both of them.


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## ed4copies (Oct 11, 2013)

BTW, if you or I sell the Dayacom version, the agreement between CSUSA and PSI MAY make it more difficult for PSI to assert their rights, but it would NOT make it any less costly if they chose to bankrupt us, with litigation fees.  (speaking only for myself, I am confident they could do that!!)

Equally true, if PSI decides they WANT to, they could pick anyone who has purchased the kit from outside the country and bankrupt them, as well.  Might be a good tactic to keep their other designs from entering the USA.  

Always important to weight the risk, before importing "questionable" goods.


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## Smitty37 (Oct 11, 2013)

ed4copies said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > ed4copies said:
> ...


I'm pretty sure that such an agreement would be itself illegal restraint of trade and leave them both open to being sued themselves by the US Government. For myself it's a moot point because I still don't like them (neither version is really my cup of tea) and wouldn't carry them if I could but most agreements of that nature other than straight cross license agreements are skating on mighty thin ice.

One other point - my son-in-law is CFO for a pretty good sized law firm that does take a certain number of probono cases - so my pockets just might be as deep as PSI's on legal work if push came to shove.


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## NittanyLion (Oct 11, 2013)

So we all know Ed Levy watches these posts....let's here from him.  Ed?


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## LagniappeRob (Oct 13, 2013)

Smitty37 said:


> ...
> 
> 
> > *The scenario I can picture is CSUSA calling Ed Levy and working out an agreement where Ed will not pursue CSUSA as long as both are displayed and Ed gets royalties (at least on HIS, possibly on both). CSUSA* understands the cost of litigation and would be very smart to negotiate a gentleman's agreement to avoid a legal battle.
> ...



That's not restraint of trade. That cross licensing (I'll sell yours and you sell mine) and is perfectly legal. Restraint of trade is an agreement NOT to trade/sell an item.

Edit


			
				Wikipedia said:
			
		

> In patent law, a cross-licensing agreement is an agreement according to which two or more parties grant a license to each other for the exploitation of the subject-matter claimed in one or more of the patents each owns.[1] Usually, this type of agreement happens between two parties in order to avoid litigation or to settle an infringement dispute...



If it doesn't go both way, then it's simply licensing the product.


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## Smitty37 (Oct 13, 2013)

LagniappeRob said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...


 *Licensing a patent on hardware generally conveys the right to use the patent in building your own product. I do not need PSI's permission to sell their product as long as the ones I sell were originally acquired from PSI (whether by me or someone else) and I acknowledge that in my marketing. I would not try selling them under a different name.* 

Restraint of Trade in the Serman Antitrust Act - _Contracts or combinations that tend, or are designed, to eliminate or stifle competition, create a_ Monopoly, _artificially maintain prices, or otherwise hamper or obstruct the course of trade as it would be carried on if it were left to the control of natural economic forces._ - that is a pretty nebulous definition that covers all sorts of agreements and I'm pretty sure it would apply to an agreement like the one that you describe.


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## LagniappeRob (Oct 14, 2013)

What?  A patent by definition gives the holder a monopoly.  

From the USPTO: 


> A patent is an intellectual property right granted by the Government of the United States of America to an inventor *“to exclude others from making, using, offering for sale, or selling the invention throughout the United States or importing the invention into the United States"* for a limited time in exchange for public disclosure of the invention when the patent is granted.


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## Mason Kuettel (Oct 14, 2013)

Maybe it's just the redneck in me, but I don't think I would buy the CSUSA version simply because the clip is a LEVER action on a BOLT ACTION style pen!  Too many people would notice this in my neck of the woods!


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## Smitty37 (Oct 14, 2013)

LagniappeRob said:


> What? A patent by definition gives the holder a monopoly.
> 
> From the USPTO:
> 
> ...


Yes it does, but that does not mean a patent holder can sell me the covered item and say I can't resell it.  That would be restraint of trade and is one of the things the Sherman Act is designed to prevent.


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## Smitty37 (Oct 14, 2013)

Mason Kuettel said:


> Maybe it's just the redneck in me, but I don't think I would buy the CSUSA version simply because the clip is a LEVER action on a BOLT ACTION style pen! Too many people would notice this in my neck of the woods!


Actually I think it is more like a lever action clip on a Semi-Automatic action. The action (in my opinion) looks more like what you see on a Springfield M1 (WWII vintage) rifle and I'd have made the clip look like one of them.


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