# The day after disaster



## PenWorks (Sep 29, 2009)

Did anyone catch "The Day After Disaster" on the history channel? What a bummer. Grew up in the 60's with elders talking about bomb shelters and like hiding under my desk was really going to save me from a nuke  Seems like we haven't come very far in that time. I say let Iran have the bomb. I mean if India and Pakistan have one why not. Its not like they are real stable goverments. But its just a shame that this topic has come up again.

Oh, I'm not all that worried, since I am kinda out in the sticks, but if I lived in DC or NY, I would be thinking about moving real quick.:biggrin: Now, my son instead of taking care of his business this morning, is looking at Bio suits  I wonder if you can still turn pens wearing one of those :biggrin:


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## DCBluesman (Sep 29, 2009)

The advantage to living just outside of DC is that if something does happen, I won't even know what happened! :ghost:


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## Russianwolf (Sep 29, 2009)

Ain't it the truth Lou.


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## Fred (Sep 29, 2009)

I agree, let them have the bomb and hope they misjudge something and incinerate themselves (a little help could occur ya know) ... Wonder who will get the blame for the mishap?


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## bitshird (Sep 29, 2009)

I have a feeling that the team with the blue star isn't going to let Mahmoud have a nuke, they have a unilateral anti proliferation plan for that area, they are the only ones that can play. Remember the one they took out in Syria a few years back, no guarantees, but I'd bet a chocolate chip cookie that Iran had a vested interest in that plant.


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## tbroye (Sep 30, 2009)

Growing up in a neighborhood populated with a lot of Air Force people after WWII and during the Korean thing we did a lot of duck and cover at school and having survival kits and plans we still have an air raid siren that goes off the last friday of the month at 11am.  I do think the Star of David boys will take care of Iran especially now that they have missiles.


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## workinforwood (Sep 30, 2009)

Sucks to be us.  We have little choice but to police the world.  "With great power, comes great responsibility"


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## jimofsanston (Sep 30, 2009)

I am with Lou, I live between DC and Norfolk. When it happens we will not know.


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## artme (Sep 30, 2009)

workinforwood said:


> Sucks to be us.  We have little choice but to police the world.  "With great power, comes great responsibility"



Why so??

Would your policing be better than that of others in the world??


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## Gentleben (Sep 30, 2009)

I watched the program and being on the shy side of 70, I personally thought if you can't do anything about it why worry.  I do hate to think of my grandchildren and children having to deal with the mess we have left them.


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## babyblues (Sep 30, 2009)

artme said:


> Why so??
> 
> Would your policing be better than that of others in the world??



That's not the point.  If we have the power to help, than we should help.  Now, you can argue that what we're doing is not helping, but that's totally subjective because we can't see the future.  Even if the rest of the world could do it better, are they?  I don't see it.  OK, maybe we have a hero complex, but after 9/11, we were pretty quick to criticize other countries for not lending a hand in dealing with the aftermath.  We don't have to be perfect to at least try to help, however misguided that help might be.

Make no mistake, the Star of David will take care of what needs taking care of.  The question becomes will we stand with them or against them.  I don't see our current administration exercising the good judgment to stand with them.  I hope I'm wrong, but sadly I don't think I am.


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## artme (Sep 30, 2009)

The judgement of the current administration, of whatever persuasion, ought not to be presumed.

I also ask if the judgement of the previous administration in the USA was not, at the very least, questionable on occasions.

Whatever our views, or political persuasions we need to take a look at the lessons of history and try to learn from them in a way that the actions we choose are sure to do the least harm and the most longterm good. Not an easy task and not an enviable one for any administration.
 of any country.

Another question : Why is there more concern about this issue than the North Korean situation?


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## PenWorks (Sep 30, 2009)

artme said:


> Another question : Why is there more concern about this issue than the North Korean situation?



Probally because of Jihad & oil


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## artme (Sep 30, 2009)

PenWorks said:


> Probally because of Jihad & oil



Perhaps.

Or is it because of that lurking Giant bordering North Korea?


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## ed4copies (Sep 30, 2009)

*pens for peace??*



artme said:


> Perhaps.
> 
> Or is it because of that lurking Giant bordering North Korea?




World commerce fosters world interdependence.  The same China that pestered GW by taking a USA airliner in HIS first year is helping keep world order, now.  Do they like us any better---probably not, but they want to keep selling us pen kits!!!:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

So, buy pen kits, keep world peace!!!
(how's that for "back of the envelope" problem solving??)


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## artme (Sep 30, 2009)

ed4copies said:


> World commerce fosters world interdependence.  The same China that pestered GW by taking a USA airliner in HIS first year is helping keep world order, now.  Do they like us any better---probably not, but they want to keep selling us pen kits!!!:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:
> 
> So, buy pen kits, keep world peace!!!
> (how's that for "back of the envelope" problem solving??)



Oh that things were so simple!!!


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## PenWorks (Sep 30, 2009)

ed4copies said:


> :
> 
> So, buy pen kits, keep world peace!!!
> (how's that for "back of the envelope" problem solving??)



ED  for PRES......2012  :biggrin:


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## ed4copies (Sep 30, 2009)

Art,

Things ARE simple.  If you can't control it, don't try.  

Our president has not called for my advice, yet.  And I don't expect he will.  So, I can scream and holler and get myself sick (did that during the 70's for "equal rights").  Or, after seeing the results and listening to people who say we did nothing or not enough, we can let those who think they can do better, try.

Once every two years, we show up to vote.  Over half the voters disagree with me, so I go home and let them do it their way.  In 2010, you'll see me at the polls again.  

Meanwhile, I DO believe world trade will help keep world peace.  At least, I CAN hope!!  Its better than despair, don't you think??


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## Daniel (Sep 30, 2009)

Because we are the greatest country that has even been on the face of the earth.



artme said:


> Why so??
> 
> Would your policing be better than that of others in the world??


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## ed4copies (Sep 30, 2009)

Daniel said:


> Because we are the greatest country that has even been on the face of the earth.



Sorry, Daniel, but I believe the Roman Empire felt that way, too.  Things didn't turn out too well for them.  

Every (well, at least MOST) powerful nation mistakes power for RIGHT.  They are NOT synonymous.  Our generosity is great, but we may find ourselves hoping to receive, rather than in a position to GIVE, if things continue down the current path to grave unemployment and HUGE government, sucking up all resources.


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## artme (Sep 30, 2009)

Daniel said:


> Because we are the greatest country that has even been on the face of the earth.



Well at least some people believe that line.

This is the sort of bombastic hubris that stirs up enmity. Might doesn't equal right.


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## artme (Sep 30, 2009)

ed4copies said:


> Art,
> 
> Things ARE simple.  If you can't control it, don't try.
> 
> ...



Yes Ed, hope is far superior to despair.

Trouble is politics too often impedes hope and good works. We see this in every level of society and government.

Watch kids of mixed backgrounds come together and play. Wonderful stuphph.

I was once witness to a fascinating little episode involving some kids, bikes and a block of vacant land. The kids had got together and decided to build a "BMX " track for their own enjoyment. They gathered tools, pieces of log, bricks, rocks and other odds and sods.
The discussion and bargaining then began on the design and layout. This was raucous and spirited but not nasty. the kids were learning to negotiate,co=operate and compromise.

Then busybody stupid neighbour stuck his misdirected nose over the fence, told the kids to stop fighting and get home.

Lessons here, me thinks.

Sorry if this is a bit of a ramble but I think you will get my point.


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## chriselle (Sep 30, 2009)

Hey Hank (Lee)!!   DUCK!!   As yet another rocket from North Korea flies overhead to splash into the Pacific....


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## bitshird (Oct 1, 2009)

I think we are still a great nation, but being the nice guys and trying to stand ground in too many arenas is getting us worn thin, I hope that if Israel does make a preemptive move to assure it's own defense, and I think they are the ones that will be the first target of that dimwitted fool, then we should stand with her. We have some of the best Military Warriors in the world!!


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## Daniel (Oct 1, 2009)

Ed, I have a saying that i often remind myself of. "All things pass"
When you are angry it will eventually pass and you will be happy, that to will pass.
So will the time that the US is where it is today.


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## ed4copies (Oct 1, 2009)

We all HOPE that our actions will HELP maintain world stability, but there are no assurances.

NATO has proven ineffective, the UN seems unable to "peacekeep" and many countries, including but certainly not limited to, Australia just don't have the manpower to do much on the world stage.

(Australia is also one of the STRONGEST economies in the world, right now, so small does NOT mean weak.  They also enjoy a very LARGE trading relationship with China-is there a tie in there??)

Ideally the UN would develop some guts and enforce all their "rules".  But, if that's the avenue we hope to stroll down, look out for falling trees!!!  

Just a FWIW---hopefully a-political.


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## artme (Oct 1, 2009)

Yes Ed Australia has developed strong trading ties with China AND our Prime Minister speaks Mandarin.

It is interesting to see how or attitude towards China has mellowed over the years that strong trade links have been developed.

Of course there is still xenophobia about Chinese investment in Australia but that will dissipate as as they demonstrate that they are a trusted partner and we learn to trust them. The increased migration from China to Australia also helps the process of barrier breaking.


I fear NATO and the UN are constrained by do gooders and self interest. The best we can hope from the UN is to see the humanitarian and cultural efforts be an effective tool for progress and stability.

We also have a subculture of blame and score keeping within the UN member states. Witness that moronic cretin in Zimbabwe. Witness the failure of the Un to act in Rwanda.

Don't know how to overcome this. Ifear it will always be with us.


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## ed4copies (Oct 1, 2009)

artme said:


> Why so??
> 
> Would your policing be better than that of others in the world??




Which all brings us back to the original question:

Who SHOULD police the world?   Or, should we allow dictators and terrorist groups to do as they wish?  After all, we are limiting THEIR freedom by not allowing them to blow us to smithereens.

Where IS the UN???
What's NATO done right recently?

Heck, we (the world) doesn't seem able to stop a bunch of thugs in motorboats!!

So, what will happen if the USA becomes protectionist and isolated on the world stage?

Will Canada protect US???
(Tongue firmly in cheek, I know all of this is VERY unlikely as our politicians would lose POWER-- that ain't gonna happen)


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## artme (Oct 1, 2009)

I think we would all like to see a co-operative effort in world peace keeping through the UN and organisations like NATO. Trouble is it is not really happening, for reasons already mentioned.

At the moment hoodlum terrorist elements are being dealt with by those attacked by them. There has been a belated response to this problem by the Pakistani government within its own borders. The Indonesian government has made progress in dealing with terrorists also.

One of the problems with The UN joining the fray in these sorts of circumstances is the question of sovereign rights an the reluctance of the Security Council to sanction such action. After the debacle in Iraq this is even less likely to happen.

One issue frequently discussed in my circle of friends in Australia has been that of despotic"leaders such as Mugabe and his treatment of his own people. Perhaps the fact that he wasn't seen as a threat to anyone outside his own borders was weak enough reason to leave him alone.

We are often attacked by the pres ( not always free ) in our region for "interfering" in the affairs of our neighbours or being "bully boys'. In simplistic terms this is a bit of a hangover from the days of colonialism in the region, coupled with the fact that we are the only "European" nation in the region. A bit of reverse xenophobia. 

One the other hand, however we are the first to offer help in times of crisis and are often the first to be approached for help in political crises.

Well, that's the way of the world.


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## ed4copies (Oct 1, 2009)

"Nature abhors a vacuum".  If the USA steps out of the role of "policeman", the "outlaws" will be happy to fill the void.

I find it amusing, since the major threats in the world (Korea, Iran, etc) are not parked in OUR backyard.  So, why not let Europe deal with them??  Russia would cooperate, since they need Germany to buy their oil. (Germany and France lead the European Union)  After a few cities are terrorized, US protection won't look so intrusive.

But, that's just me.


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## jkeithrussell (Oct 1, 2009)

I should receive some sort of prize for staying out of this one.


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## artme (Oct 2, 2009)

jkeithrussell said:


> I should receive some sort of prize for staying out of this one.



C'mon, don't be shy!! Have a go.:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:


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## jkeithrussell (Oct 2, 2009)

artme said:


> C'mon, don't be shy!! Have a go.:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:


 
Believe me, I'm not shy.


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