# Some Things to Consider When Deciding To Turn Pens



## thompenshop (Mar 25, 2008)

About two years ago I wrote an article titled, "So You Want To Turn Pens". This article was a reaction to the fact that I was receiving several emails each week with the question, What should I consider before I invest in pen turning equipment? I am sure that my article is not the final word on this subject, but rather it was written out of my experiences of starting a hobby/business "on the fly" without having sought much advice on the subject. 

Many of you might enjoy reading that article and adding your experiences. Who knows, we might come up with a really good article that could be posted in this library for inquiring individuals to read and ponder its depths of wisdom.

Access to my article:  http://www.thompsonpens.com   click on "Shop Talk". The article is titled,"So You Want To Turn Pens".


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## alamocdc (Mar 25, 2008)

Very interesting read, Chris. Thanks! Now I only have one question.

Anybody wanna buy a use Delta Midi and several hundred kits and pen blanks?[:0]

Actually, what you do is something like what I aspire to retire to. To me the uniqueness of what I produce is becoming ever more important.


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## sbell111 (Mar 25, 2008)

I think that your definition of 'pen turning' may be slightly different than most users of this site.


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## thompenshop (Mar 25, 2008)

> _Originally posted by sbell111_
> 
> I think that your definition of 'pen turning' may be slightly different than most users of this site.



Steve, do you mean that most people who use this site are turning kit pen? I would like for you to expound with regard to your quote above.

Thanks, Chris Thompson


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## sbell111 (Mar 25, 2008)

I think most people on this site will always be content turning a pen using a wood lathe.  Many will never turn a non-kit pen.  Very, very few will ever make a non-kit pen without using clearly explained methods.  Further, I believe that these individuals will consider themselves 'pen turners' and be very happy making these pens.


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## stevebuk (Mar 25, 2008)

> _Originally posted by sbell111_
> 
> I think most people on this site will always be content turning a pen using a wood lathe.  Many will never turn a non-kit pen.  Very, very few will ever make a non-kit pen without using clearly explained methods.  Further, I believe that these individuals will consider themselves 'pen turners' and be very happy making these pens.



I totally agree with steve on this, and i sort of got the feeling you were almost snubbing the wood lathe and the capabilities of the turner by using hand held tools, i am new to wood turning and i enjoy all that comes with it, so far anyway. 
In my opinion, long live the wood lathe, and pen turning fraturnity.


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## devowoodworking (Mar 25, 2008)

I think a lot of machinists would dissagree with a lot of your statements!  I have a 'Taig' lathe similar to your 'Sherline' and it's definitely not underpowered! Not all machining needs brute force. If everyone took your advice and went through all your rhetoric about whether they can afford it or not, they'd likely never start, and that would be a shame as far as I'm concerned.  I turn because it's fun and if it's stops being fun then I'll stop!!!!!!!!!


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## karlkuehn (Mar 25, 2008)

I think 99% of the people on this site make kit pens.

What you discuss in your article seems more like production pen making, and is completely different than what most of us do here.

The reason that many of us see success in the marketplace is because there will always be a good market for quality _handcrafted_ pens. Each of our pens is unique, and I think that the love of our craft transfers to and becomes obvious in each pen we make. We don't let our machines make the pens for us, we use the machines to unleash our creativity on an unsuspecting pile of components.

You put two of us side by side and give us the same stuff to work with, and we'll both come up with great pens, and they'll be totally different from each other. Heck, for that matter, you set just one of us up with two sets of the same stuff, and we wouldn't even be able to duplicate our own work.

Setting a set of parameters and design schematics in software is vastly different than what we do here. Each of our pens is made by hand, with hand tools, and our designs change from pen to pen because we're able to see the individual beauty in each one as we transform it on the lathe. You don't get that with CNC.

I shudder to think of all the beautiful blanks that would have been wasted being cookie-cutter milled through a heartless, talentless machine. You never know what you're going to run into in a blank when you start turning it, and by having the ability to pull our tools away at any given moment, we can capitalize on that beauty by altering our designs on the fly, and end up with individual masterpieces of creativity.

If I were set up to duplicate pen after pen like a robot, all of this would quickly lose the joy that I find in turning.

Your article is great, but is all but irrelevant in the context of this forum. I truly don't want to see my pens end up at Staples and Office depot next to the production company's offerings. 

My two cents.


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## gatornick (Mar 25, 2008)

I think it is a pompous article posted here to show your arrogance.  If you think it works to discourage competition, then by all means keep it posted on your website.  I think this is contrary to almost everything this site is about.  From my experience, the members here are very forthcoming in helping newcomers attain the level of expertise they desire, as opposed to discouraging them.  Personally if I was a customer and happened upon your site, I would leave and look for a penmaker with a little more humility.


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## BigShed (Mar 25, 2008)

Interesting take on pen "manufacturing", shame your site doesn't recognise a real web browser like Firefox.

Certainly a very snobby tone to your article, but I'm sure you're having fun and that is the main thing.


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## fafow (Mar 25, 2008)

I agree with Karl.  I have not been doing this for a long time and as time goes on I am building up the equipment that I use.  I didn't start with a huge financial investment.  For me, just the cost of my 12 inch Jet lathe is a big expense.  Also, like Karl said, every pen I make is unique.  Even when I try to make two pens the same, it just doesn't happen.  I'm perfectly okay with that.  For me the joy is working with the wood using the tools by hand.  I also find that people are more willing to spend more for my pen when they know I made it by hand.  That adds value for them.  It adds a personal touch that they are willing to pay extra for.  Pure production mode pen-making is not my cup of tea and I doubt it ever will be.  If you take the time to read a lot of the posts here you will find that many people have a very small part of their house set up for their work area.  In some cases it is even right beside the heater in the basement.  Others use part of their garage and move the car out when they want to work.  If they had to get a professional setup that costs $40,000 they would never even think of getting started.  If they knew people would look down their nose at them until they got to that point, they also would never contribute to this site where I have learned tons and hope to be able to return the help.  If they knew they would be making a few designs and then just running a duplication shop, they probably would never even pursue it.  I don't know if most here consider themselves hobbyists or true pen-making artists, or somewhere in between.  However, I do know that quite a few here make a decent amount of money off of this and enjoy it at the same time.  Making money is a side benefit and helps pay for their "obsession".  People here love working with wood and making pens in the process.  turning it into a high powered duplication shop would take most of that away.  Then where's the fun?  If there's no fun, then why do it?  Most of us squeeze this in along with our regular job, maintaining our house and yard, spending time with the wife and kids, etc.  If this is not fun, it won't get done.

Just my two cents worth.


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## ed4copies (Mar 25, 2008)

<center>_*SOME THINGS TO CONSIDER WHEN ADDRESSING THE IAP MEMBERSHIP:*_</center>

I believe the IAP has room for a man with your talents.  While you will not be a big resource for ME, many here are aspiring to make their own pieces and parts and I consider them friends.

And, if you open your mind (which is not to say it is closed, but your article doesn't seem to allow for OUR way of doing things), you MAY find there are other aspects to penmaking that have led OTHERS to enjoy it.

As a clergyman, I am certain you find that not EVERY person will find self-fullfillment through the same portal.  Perhaps you can bring that attitude to the IAP.  I, for one, look forward to SHARING information wherever we find "middle ground".  I hope you can see US in the same light.  

Welcome, stay a while.


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## rhahnfl (Mar 25, 2008)

*Yowser!!!* That article was an eye opener. I never spent even close to $10K to get into this. I had well less than $500 and am doing just fine. Between last August when I cranked out the first pen and now I have sold about 12 dozen pens of various shapes and styles and have gotten comfortable with the process and want to expand into doing some other types of pens. I pretty much do custom and market driven strictly as a hobby. I don't ever plan to make a living doing this but I am doing well as a hobby... that's for sure. I sell a pen for a little more than I have into it and buy more stuff to make more... always trying to anticipate what I can sell and still expand my horizons. Glad I lurked here awhile before I made the jump and didn't see that... I'd have never gotten in... this is a great group and there's room for all kinds of opinions...


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## Tonto (Mar 25, 2008)

A very interesting read, reminds me of fly fishing's evolution and subsequent devolution.  For a long time you were not a real fly fisherman unless your rod cost $600-1000 and your attire was Orvis or better.  Funny how guys with $15 rods still caught fish and were having fun.  I like the range of experience here, I took no offense, glad this site exists to expose me to perspectives I would never had access to.  I'll check back but just what is the charge for one of your pens? (I checked the site $200 and up.....a niche...) Me?  Make a few, give away most, have sold three (to a friend who received one as a gift) and enjoy the constant fight to find time just to switch the lathe on.....Variety is the spice of life,,,,if I had $40K+, it would be in a property where I could hunt and fish....Lets hear from the guys who make pens with a pocket knife.


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## MarkHix (Mar 25, 2008)

I took the time to read your article.  Since this is a hobby for me, my perspective is different from yours.  The opinions you expressed are yours and I respect that fact.  The article itself tends to be one sided towards your perspective on the pen making business.  Your perspective is that of manufatucturing totally custom pens as a business whereas most of us here are people that use kits to one degree or another.  Maybe you should add a section by a pure hobbiest.  (Send me one of your pens and I will write you my version). 

I tend to agree with most of the other opinions already expressed.  If I were a new turner and dreamed of making my own parts, it would probably scare me away. Like most of us here, I am a hobbiest.  I've sold a few pens to people that asked and maybe when I retire from my JOB, I will do this for extra income.  I did not immerse myself into my turning hobby until the kids were out of school.  I stumbled onto penmaking when I accidently found this site.  I am glad I did because I enjoy my own style of creativity.


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## DCBluesman (Mar 25, 2008)

Ok, quick!  Someone catch me up!  I haven't seen this much vitriol since I quit talking about TSW!

On visiting Chris's site (again), I found it to be an effective tribute to the fountain pen and enjoyed the new creations along with the replica work that Chris has done over the years.  I find the workmanship and styles displayed to be wonderfully evocative of a bygone era.

I moved on to the article Chris suggested and read with piqued curiosity.  The world of pen making is fairly new to me and I found a great deal of delight in following Chris's travails on his pen making journey.  Chris has taken a different direction from me, but I am nonetheless fascinated by his dedication to becoming a niche manufacturer of high quality pens.    While the tens of thousands of dollars investment required to follow Chris's dream are not likely to occur for me, it was fun to live vicariously.  

Beyond the machines, of course, is the vision needed to identify a need, seize the opportunity and fulfill that need.  The dedication to excellence is obviously in both the workmanship of his pens and in describing the actualization of his vision.  Chris has seized his opportunity and developed it into a beautiful obsession. 

You know, I missed the part where any disdain was shown for those of us who do this for fun.  I also missed the snobby tone, but maybe I'm a snob and don't recognize it.  I guess I also missed the discouraging part.  You see, I do not pretend to "make" pens like Montblanc, Waterman or Parker.  I'm reasonably content to make pretty wood barrels and adorn them with findings and components which can be purchased off the shelf.  It is nice to know, though, that I have a huge opportunity to grow should I desire to do so.  And I have at least a rudimentary map.  And I know some of those side trips are pretty darned expensive.

So, all-in-all, someone please clue me in.  If there's going to be a donnybrook, I don't want to be on the wrong side!  Or...maybe...I'll just sit this one out.  I have friends on both sides.


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## OKLAHOMAN (Mar 25, 2008)

Lou,well said.





> _Originally posted by DCBluesman_
> 
> Ok, quick!  Someone catch me up!  I haven't seen this much vitriol since I quit talking about TSW!
> 
> ...


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## MichaelS (Mar 25, 2008)

FIRST, YOU ARE MAKING KIT PENS. If you don't see that you should stop. When you take away the handcrafted aspect of the ART of Pen Making and do it on a cnc machine then you are a production shop. Sounds like you should go click a Bic and be done with it and not bore us with your sanctimonious bs. The guy who made the $160,000.00 pen started learning his craft the way every person who has made something by hand did. Not everyone needs to amp up his rpm's like Tim the Tool Man in order to produce the quality that we aspire to. It also sounds as if you would like to stop because it is no longer fun but you are so deep in financially that you can't. As for having to spend $10.000.00 to start, everyone reading this knows that is also bs. I agree  with ALMOST all of the above replies. Everyone in this forum has there preferred medium for turning pens. I love wood and as long as it was cut legally I would like to turn as many different kinds of wood as I can get my hands on. I will go one step farther and say that every pen made by an IAP member means something personal to someone and that our pens will be treasured by there owners and passed down from person to person for years to come when yours are in the landfill with all of the other production pens from China.


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## alamocdc (Mar 25, 2008)

Lou, I took it the same as you. No where in there did I read where he said everyone turning kit pens is off the mark and working with shoddy products. If you examined his sight you'll see that Chris does indeed work with some of the same pens we do. He simply shared his take on what works well (even if it's just for him) in the fountain pen world. But I'd be willing to bet that folks like Scott Meyer, Anthony, Bruce Boone, Brian, George, Dan... I could go on, but why?... understand the points he makes.

Come on, guys, give him a break. He's been doing this for a while now and appears to be fairly successful at it. Why slam him for sharing his opinon with people he assumed were kindred spirits?[?][:I]


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## Texatdurango (Mar 25, 2008)

You know if some of you would sit back and think for a minute before spouting off with all your hateful attitudes you might just learn something!

I imagine when Chris wrote his article several years ago he didn't have the IAP membership in mind and he was probably addressing a whole different audience, the type of people wanting to start making pens to compete with the "big boys".  It's a whole different world when you are making pens to compete with the big names where every cap fits perfectly, every part matches up exacting tolerances and you pay almost $100 for a clip and use solid gold accent bands!

In comparison, many around here bitch and moan because they are dissatisfied with the plating on a $3 kit yet go ahead and craft their "one of a kind" unique writing instrument anyway!

I can see where some don't see their business ventures the same way Chris saw his and thatâ€™s fine but this thread turned into a hateful pathetic bashing real quickâ€¦. On someone you donâ€™t even know!

From his very first posts he was willing to share everything he has learned over the years and I truly believe he was just trying to share information with us and this is how we welcome him to the forum?  

This thread has turned into nothing short of a dog pile with each poster getting bolder and bolder with their comments and I think itâ€™s appalling and absolutely pathetic!  You all ought to feel real proud of yourselves... and don't forget to visit the new members forum and welcome some others members onboard while your at it!


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## btboone (Mar 25, 2008)

I appreciate the fact that Chris, through his own research, fell upon a niche that he was uniquely qualified by a combination of talent and tools to fulfill.  When you can do that, no matter the tools or methods used, you find that's a very cool thing.  He is justifiably proud to have stumbled upon a combination that works well for him, and he was trying to share it with others. To finally be earning good cash after years of figuring out "the system" is definitely something to be proud of.  There are only a handfull of people that have done that with pens.  No, it's certainly not the goal for everyone.  I congratulate the few that have done it though.


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## jeff (Mar 25, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Texatdurango_
> 
> You know if some of you would sit back and think for a minute before spouting off with all your hateful attitudes you might just learn something!
> 
> ...


I rarely weigh in on these sort of "discussions", but George is right on target with his post. This is needless and thoughtless bashing of a new member. Yeah, he's got a different take on things, and maybe he is rubbing our fur the wrong way, but let's show some of that famous IAP hospitality and give him a break. 

You're not going to do things exactly like Chris or anyone else here. But if you just gratefully take in what someone offers you, or better yet, ask some good questions and spark a conversation, you'll enjoy new information a whole lot more. 

All of us have a "cooler head" which will usually prevail if we take the advice in the first sentence of George's post; Sit and think for a minute before you blast away at something which on first glance irritates you. 

Sorry to take sides, but I just could not sit this one out.


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## thompenshop (Mar 25, 2008)

I'm not put off at all by the negative comments for several reasons. First, I still turn kit pens using wood and anyother material that I can keep chucked into my lathe. I have probably turned as many kit pens in my life as anyother member of this forum. I still frequently chuck a pen blank into my lathe and turn it using hand held tools. There is no greater joy than taking a piece of wood and watching what will appear as it is turned. Those of you who think for a minute that kit pens and hand shaping material is not a part of my history need to get acquainted with my journey before you jump to conclusions. My guess is that there are individuals in this forum at every skill level and many of them much more skilled than I at the lathe. Can't we learn from eachother. My good friend Scott Meyer and I have spent many hours talking about the various aspects of pen turning. In my opinion he is one of the best craftmen at the lathe that I know. His kit pens are to die for. Scott is a machinest and tool and die maker by trade. Recently he purchased a CNC lathe (by the way, I don't own one yet). I can promise you that learning the skills required to turn pens on a CNC lathe give one the same thrill as turning one on a 100 year old Dewalt (I own one of those). I have turned pens on both. I would suggest that to put down someone else and there experiences with what ever tools they use to turn pens is not very considerate of their journey. I referenced this forum to my article simply because pen turning has and will continue to be a journey. You who move the car out of the way to get the lathe out so that you can turn pens in the garage on a three hundred dollar lathe, enjoy, because I did that for years. I have turned pens out of hand soap, candle wax, molding clay, every species of woods I could afford, every polyester rod I could get my hands on,every piece of acrylic and every piece of metal that I could figure out how to drill a hole through. My guess is that you will experiment to.

Have your comments made be feel unwelcome or uncomfortable on this forum? Not at all! I still make my living doing what I have been doing for the past forty year as a clergyman. Pen turning is my hobby and will remain that way well into the future. A powerful lathe, a CNC machine, or the fact that my pens fill a special place in the pen collecting community does not put me one pen ahead of the guy or gal who turns one pen a month on their Jet, or Sherline. We are in this hobby for the sheer joy of taking a piece of material and making it a piece of art or perhaps as I have experienced, some of my creations end up being more utilitarian rather than art.

Let's make pens!!

Chris Thompson


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## Malainse (Mar 25, 2008)

Rough crowd.....   The articles address what it takes to get into pen turning of that caliber ! A number of the issues in the advanced section address what he is doing.  I would welcome any incite/inspiration that he can give me...

Mitch


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## bbqncigars (Mar 25, 2008)

I thought the article was very good, and not snooty or condescending in any way.  As a former old-school machinist, I can appreciate the effort he puts into his pens.  I've been eyeballing various metal lathes myself lately, but I don't currently have the shop space for a decent one (dammit).

Wayne


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## pipeyeti (Mar 25, 2008)

> We are in this hobby for the sheer joy of taking a piece of material and making it a piece of art or perhaps as I have experienced, some of my creations end up being more utilitarian rather than art.
> 
> Let's make pens!!
> 
> Chris Thompson



I agree completely. Welcome, hope you enjoy your time here as much as I do.


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## leehljp (Mar 26, 2008)

Chris,

I appreciated the article. I will never make anything comparable to what you do. I don't have the skills to operate a CNC or the skills you have to do them by hand although I do tend to buy a little higher quality tools to make up for my deficiencies. Having said that, I always aspire to things I cannot reach, that keeps me going. In my line of counseling I have come to find that some people never like to vision beyond what they can reach for fear of disappointment. For me - I don't like a vision, goal or 'reach' that won't let me stop striving for better, in this case, a better pen!

Thanks for posting that! _Some_ people will learn from it  , . . . while others . .


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## wdcav1952 (Mar 26, 2008)

I had not followed this thread past the first few posts after reading Chris' article.  Grow up, guys.  Chris referenced one method to make a decent profit turning pens.  Calling it BS is simply short-sighted and juvenile.

If you have that much venom to spew, I'll go back to correcting people's spelling and grammar to give you another target for your bile.

Welcome, Chris and thanks for your perspective.


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## Johnathan (Mar 26, 2008)

It seems to me that some actually enjoy or relish in pushing their own opinions on others. I'm glad that not everyone turns pens or looks at it the same way as I do or I would never really learn anything around here. I enjoy the differences brought to this forum and look forward to all that I have to learn to better myself and my work. 

I too did not read any negativity within the essay. I think it is the opinion of one person and was honest in his own experiences. I think that there are those that could do things much cheaper but he is describing HIS pens and what he uses to make them. 

I have, on occasion, said the "wrong" thing and have had the experience of those coming out of the woodwork to tell me just what they think and jump down my throat (not a fun experience at all). I would hope that people can learn to disagree and grow up a bit too. 

I would hope that the IAP is a place where people can express their points of view and opinions without fear of some huge retaliatory outpouring. 

I look forward to what Chris will bring to the group and hope that he can get past those that are not as welcoming as they should be.  

Also, because I can't keep my mouth shut , for the comparison of Chris' work as a bic pen!? Give me a break and grow up! I am impressed with his pens and look forward to seeing what he will do next.


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## BrentK (Mar 26, 2008)

Chris you dont live in SW Louisiana do ya. I would love to see what you do and how you do it. I have only been at this a short while but would love to see what you are talking about.
Thanks for the article.


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## fafow (Mar 26, 2008)

Consider me duly reprimanded for my earlier post[:I].  I reread his article and spent the time to really read it this time.  I was wondering why I was upset and I think this is what did it for me:

You can turn some pens on a wood turners lathe, but this decision is short-sided for several reasons (the most important being that wood turning lathes are not designed to be used in a machinist setting, but thatâ€™s not rocket science!).

I wasn't putting 2 and 2 together and seeing that he is also making the metal parts for his pens and a machinist lathe is definitely needed for that.  I am stuck with trying to find a kit that matches a customer's request (not always the easiest thing to do) and looking forward to the day that I make the pens with no kit, only wood.  I never thought of the possibility of making my own kits for the pens.  That would truly be cool to do and that seems to be what Chris is doing.  To that I tip my hat, offer my apologies, and look forward to what Chris can add to the wealth of knowledge available on this site.  Welcome.


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## Dan_F (Mar 26, 2008)

Well now that everyone is warmed up, how about a nice little discussion of religion and politics? Well, maybe not.

Chris---Welcome to IAP. I can't read the article, as I use Firefox, but I hope to be able to in the future. I also hope to see some contributions from you to our fledgling "advanced" forum. 

Dan


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## karlkuehn (Mar 26, 2008)

This is plenty long, skip it if it suits you, but I have to say it for those of you who care to read it. 

On most counts, Chris' first experience with IAP was ugly. There are several posts on this thread that made me cringe, and I'm just glad that Chris had the grace to accept the undeserved whipping and still turn the other cheek.

Personally, I disagree with many things in his essay, and if I were to set out to write my own essay on pen crafting, there would be a lot of night and day differences, no doubt about it. It's going to be very interesting to look back in a year and compare how both his and my perspectives may have changed.

Chris qualified his essay right off the bat as not being the 'Bible' of successful pen crafting by stating "I am sure that my article is not the final word on this subject", and then proceeded to invite insight into and collaboration on an evolving topic. That alone should have excluded him from the ration of pain that he was dealt.

Now, all that being said, if not reading his initial post carefully, I can see where some people got upset by reading his article. We all love what we do here. I mean, where else can you find a hobby that you love and want to spend twenty-four hours a day at that can easily pay for itself? To be told in the essay that your entire setup is wrong and you're going about this whole craft the wrong way should have made everyone raise an eyebrow.

Chris has a great setup and his pens are stellar! Some amazing stuff on his site! After eight years, there's only two ways he could've got where he's at right now; either doing exactly what he did (and all of us are doing, learning on the fly), or investing a ton of money in a bunch of tools that he had no idea how to use, and spending a year reading manuals before turning the first pen. That's assuming he'd have known enough in the first place to be able to buy the right tools.

I gotta giggle a little bit thinking about what I'd have done in a full blown machinist shop, having never turned a pen in my life. I'd give it one day before the first major catastrophic event.

Reading into Chris' essay, I think he's being too hard on himself. It sounds to me like he's looking back on all the money spent on tools and time and wishing he'd have 'known then what he knows now', the classic wish that we all ponder about. Rather than 'waste' all the time and money it took him to get where he's at, he'd rather that someone would have told him in the beginning exactly what he'd need to find his place in the pen crafting world. 

The thing is, there's no one in the world that can know that but him, and there's no way he'd know unless he found out on the fly, that's just the nature of things. He wrote this essay to help others learn from his 'mistakes', and some people will, if they're trying to get where he's going.

But some people wont. Some people, myself included, enjoy the 'journey' as much as the destination, and while I'm the first person to ask advice when I need it, I also get a lot of fulfillment from 'doing it myself'. I'm not a machinist, I'm a woodworker. I hate working in metal, it's sharp, messy, greasy and hot! But you put a piece of wood in front of me, and I love to make it sing. Sometimes it sings like Olive Oyle, but I have the time of my life doing it. 

My dream is to someday own a custom wood shop with a store front and a display workshop where people can come and watch masterpieces being created, take classes to learn how to make their own, and buy my tools and supplies to make it happen. I love making pens, and will probably always have my hand in it, but ultimately I love beautiful, one-off wood art of all kinds, and there's a successful business model for that, too!

Twenty years down the road, I can see myself working right next door to Chris, both of us successful, loving what we do, and in totally different businesses.

I think that's where the rub started. There are so many of us on IAP that think the same way as I do about our craft, and that way is very different than where Chris is at now and headed to in the future. I tell you what, though, I'm going to steal everything I can from him when I see something that I can morph into my own flavor of craft, and _THAT'S_ why we need to keep open minds when reading and responding to other people's posts. We can all learn from each other, but not if we chase people away by acting like jerks.

Writing harsh retaliation posts in public against fellow members for their harsh posts is just as detrimental to the community as the intial transgressions. This whole situation would have been better handled had PM's been sent to those who needed to be chastised, and their posts should have been immediately edited to something civil if possible, or deleted if not. Instead, everyone's got some egg on their face and we're all a little embarrassed by the 'dark side' displayed today.

This community is evolving as fast and hard as our craft is, and there's going to be growing pains, but I'm going to keep banging the "can't we all get along" drum as long as this kind of stuff keeps happening.

Chris, welcome to IAP! It's a great place to live, but I wouldn't want to visit! []


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## its_virgil (Mar 26, 2008)

First of all: Welcome Chris. Your pens are beautiful. Your craftsmanship is exquisite. In spite of some who have posted I hope you will stay around and share more of your passion with us. Well said Lou!




> As for having to spend $10.000.00 to start, everyone reading this knows that is also bs.


How can you speak for EVERYONE? And yes, I do recognize bs and I saw none of it in Chris's article, what he had to say or on his website. But, I have read lots of it in this thread.



> I will go one step farther and say that every pen made by an IAP member means something personal to someone and that our pens will be treasured by there owners and passed down from person to person for years to come when yours are in the landfill with all of the other production pens from China.


How can you claim something about every pen made by an IAP member? I know of several pens that will not be passed down because they were lost...those who treasure things don't lose them. I would think that Steve's pens are just as meaningful to their owners. If I can ever save the $$$, I would love for Steve to reproduce the Schaeffer pen I once owned that was used by my Dad...a Schaeffer Snorkle..then I would have two great things in one...a special pen like the one my Dad used and a Thompson pen. 



> Not everyone needs to amp up his rpm's like Tim the Tool Man in order to produce the quality that we aspire to.


Whether Steve has amped them up or revved them up, he has reached the quality to which I aspire. 



> FIRST, YOU ARE MAKING KIT PENS.


I suppose he is. One difference is that he also makes the kits! What a talent!

Once again, Welcome Chris. I do hope to see and read more of what you have to offer those of us who are willing to listen.

Do a good turn daily!
Don


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## aurrida (Mar 26, 2008)

i think chrisÂ´s tutorial has come at the right time for some members of the IAP. there are a number of turners here who want to push their ideas and talents to the full. chrisÂ´s tutorials is a good summary of what challenges they will have to face. 

as technology becomes more affordable i think it will only be a matter of time before we have a forum dedicated to CNC machining, at that point i hope chris is still here because we will need all the help we can get. no doubt the cnc v wood lathe debate will make interesting reading!

chris you mentioned developing the tutorial. i would like to see it expanded to include the cost of creating an image and the cost of marketing. and, their importance when considering going down the road you have taken. 

i personally find those that have made the transition chris has made interesting. i have no wish at present to follow them, but i do know i can gain a lot from some of their ideas. 

finally, as for 10,000 dollar  start up fees, well, yes its possible, even as a hobbyist. anything else may mean having to make compromises and make do. but thats ok, i use a 100 dollar wilton and make do for now. i sometimes even enjoy overcoming the compromises involved but i know what i would prefer.


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## GoodTurns (Mar 26, 2008)

Anyone else notice the similarity between initial reactions in this thread and the one announcing the "Advanced Pen Making" forum?  While I am very unlikely to EVER make it to that level of penmaking, I also enjoy seeing what/how others do it.  I can't hit a fastball, curve or slider...but I love to watch a baseball game (at any level, not just the pros).  Seeing how and why (per Ed's post last week) people undertake basically the same process and craft it to their wants and needs is what makes this place fantastic.  If we all did it exactly the same, there would be no purpose in this forum.  We are here, as arioux's tagline says, to share ideas.  Take the one's you want, but for heaven's sake, don't outright dismiss anyone else's!

welcome aboard, Chris!


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## gerryr (Mar 26, 2008)

> _Originally posted by GoodTurns_
> 
> Take the one's you want, but for heaven's sake, don't outright dismiss anyone else's!



Unfortunately, "dismiss" isn't what they did.  What these self-proclaimed experts did was brutally and mindlessly trash someone who does magnificent work, work they will never be able to do.  The IAP seems to have been invaded by a flock of small minded people.


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## pipeyeti (Mar 26, 2008)

> _Originally posted by GoodTurns_
> 
> Anyone else notice the similarity between initial reactions in this thread and the one announcing the "Advanced Pen Making" forum?  While I am very unlikely to EVER make it to that level of penmaking, I also enjoy seeing what/how others do it.  I can't hit a fastball, curve or slider...but I love to watch a baseball game (at any level, not just the pros).  Seeing how and why (per Ed's post last week) people undertake basically the same process and craft it to their wants and needs is what makes this place fantastic.  If we all did it exactly the same, there would be no purpose in this forum.  We are here, as arioux's tagline says, to share ideas.  Take the one's you want, but for heaven's sake, don't outright dismiss anyone else's!
> 
> welcome aboard, Chris!


I was thinking the same thing last nite when I was reading the posts


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## GoodTurns (Mar 26, 2008)

> _Originally posted by gerryr_
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I was trying to stay on the PC bus...I agree completely with your statement as well!


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## gketell (Mar 26, 2008)

I find it interesting that some of the most vile comments come from the newest members of the forum.  I guess they are used to other forums where being nasty is "the norm".  

Please folks, be civil.

Chris, Welcome!  I look forward to being able to read the article.  That being said, I too am a Firefox/Safari user and can't get to it.  Could you please post a direct link to the article in question?

GK


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## Ron in Drums PA (Mar 26, 2008)

Hi Chris

I didn't bother reading all the hoopla after the first page.

I will say that I enjoyed your article and even learned a thing or two (okay maybe three).

Thank you for your insight on pen turning.

Enjoy


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## IPD_Mrs (Mar 26, 2008)

I have not had much time on the forum lately but had marked this thread to come back to and read the article.

I started reading the various comments and my jaw dropped.

Chris I hope that you are of thick skin and that some of the venemous posts have rolled off your shoulders.

Without even reading the article yet people are compairing apples and oranges.  I hope that you donot perceive the forum as a whole in this mannor and find time to participate here.  I am sure many of us would be happy to learn from someone who has been there and done that.

Mike


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## rincewind03060 (Mar 26, 2008)

I don't get the furor. The list of questions was a great list and he's right. Anybody contemplating starting to make pens (or any other endeavor) would do well to answer those questions. Chris then proceeded to describe how he personally answered those questions. 

He also offered some advice based on his experience for those who might want to pursue the same path as he. Perhaps if he had prefaced the body of the article with â€œThis is how I answered those questionsâ€ and followed every reference to pen making with â€œthe way I do themâ€ them maybe so many feathers wouldnâ€™t have gotten so ruffled. But, come on folks! This is an article in a context. Look around the website. It is abundantly clear the direction he is taking and the context in which the article was written.

If he had offered to put the article in the library on this website and touted it as sage advice for all people in all circumstances some of the complaints might have some validity. But he didnâ€™t. He made that clear in his first post. He pointed people to an article on his website. Letâ€™s keep context folks! This wasnâ€™t written in a vacuum. 

If his article doesnâ€™t apply to you or youâ€™re not interested, pass it by. But the bile that has been spewed out in this thread is inexcusable. If I had gotten flamed like that on my first post, Iâ€™d have ended my membership right then and there. Show a little tolerance and common courtesy. Give people the benefit of the doubt. If you have taken offense at what someone has said, ask them what they mean. Chances are you misunderstood.

I have learned as much on this website about how to behave civilly when I disagree with someone as I have about turning pens. I have been chided in the past for the way Iâ€™ve expressed myself and I hope the people I am now chiding will take it in the spirit it is offered. 

If you are just doing a drive-by flame job, it doesnâ€™t matter. If you want to be part of a community, you have to treat people with respect and try not to alienate them. Hopefully they will return the favor.

Sorry to rant on so long, but I had to get it off my chest.

I hope you will stay with us, Chris. There are a lot of good people here, even the ones that got a little over zealous in their critiques of your article.


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## CSue (Mar 26, 2008)

Hi Chris!  What a joy to find that you've joined this group. FYI I was your "neighbor" at the LA Pen Showin Feb!  What a great help you were to me throughout those days!  

I must say, here and now, I am very sorry for the reactions of some here.  It seems to be just as we spoke of in that "other world" I wasn't "a part of" because of my penmaking methods. You helped me so much to understand the DIVIDE between that "Fountain Pen" world and this venue.  You helped me understand we are both in the SAME WORLD . . . just at different ends, maybe. You kept reminding me to be patient with those people.  And by Sunday I felt just as much "a part of" that world with a whole new view of a horizon that includes mountains and valleys, sand and water - things are coming together.

I love your website.  Verywell done!  I'm quite impressed!  And it was good to read your article on penmaking.  Of course actually having met you and spent time with you gave me an advantage over many here.  But there are some who may someday aspire to that CNC lathe.  Personally, I'm one of them.

You also know the joy of turning pens with handtools.  I've seen your work!  I'm glad you are a part of this group and I do hope you will give us time to aquaint ourselves with you and your many talents and gifts and wisdom.  Maybe we can see these are just two horizons from the same mountain.

Welcome, Chris!
  Cathy Sue


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## helgi (Mar 26, 2008)

First of welcome to the group Chris, hope you have a sense of humor.Read your essay and found it very well put forward everyone should think about the objectives and follow their hearth. Up here in the cold north we hope you stick around and that we may read some more of the insights you have.I'm one of those that turns kit pens on a general lathe, and get happy when I see the smile and delight on a face that relishes one of my creations,but then it is a hobby for me and if I sell one or two jesus I'm in heaven. I also hope that the sniping and trowing of acid will stop. Just my thoughts. Helgi


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## donald19 (Mar 26, 2008)

Many years ago someone gave me this prayer for speaking and expressing my comments.

Dear God (or a supreme being of your choice)
Please make my words and comments sweet and tender, for tomorrow I may have to eat them. 

Welcome Chris and one and all for being members here.


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## TowMater (Mar 26, 2008)

Chris,

I'm not going to read the article as it's too late for me, I've already jumped into the deep end of this pool. I will say that I visited your website (you need to fix your link in  your profile it's missing the www part which throws it off)and was quite impressed with your pens.

I've only been doing this for a few months as a hobby, but I look forward to learning things from guys like you and others here that have been doing this along time.

Todd


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## DocStram (Mar 26, 2008)

One of the basic, fundamental premises of the IAP forum is that every IAP member has a "seat at the table".  We each have the right to say what we think . . . as long as written words reflect respect and dignity towards each other. 

Although I am a Yankee by blood, I've lived in the South for the past 25 years. One thing my Southern neighbors taught me long ago is that "we don't talk ugly to each other." 

If you are unwilling or unable to express your opinions in a respectful, caring manner . . . we ask that you find yourself another forum so that you can "go talk ugly" somewhere else.


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## gerryr (Mar 26, 2008)

Amen, Doc.


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## Ron in Drums PA (Mar 26, 2008)

> _Originally posted by DocStram_
> 
> Sometimes when I'm turning, I wonder "Why is that pen blank growing bigger?" and then it hits me.




I had to read that three times before I got it - ROTFLOL


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## arioux (Mar 26, 2008)

Kind of long but that's the only way i can say it.

One day in my life, few years ago i realize that retirement was near and that i had to find myself something to keep me  occupied.  I always loved working with wood so i started to look on the internet for wood hobby.  And bang, i stumbled on Russ Fairfield site.  Went thru the site a dozen time, start to look around for pen turning back to Russ's site and said to myself "i can do that if i want to" and voila i'm hooked.  Started from scratch, spent over $4,000 (yes $4,000) in equipment, material and kits and started turning.  Could have been less but i choose this path because i could afford it. I then  joined this site, started to discover other way of turning and other material.  Everytime that i tought i was getting there, someone comes in with a new idea or a new technique that pushes me further.
I saw the Gisi's pens, and all the other of the PMG.  I saw Ed Davidson coming with new original casting, i saw new unbelievable material being used.  I saw Btboone with it's astounding flame pen. I saw wothless blanks that where good for the trash can few mounths ago being turned into faboulus pieces because of someone creativity.  And everyone of those people where ready to share their craftmanship with me.

Today i see Chris work, and i kind of feel like when i saw Russ Fairfield site for the first time.  Thanks you Chris

Today  is an other step in my penmaking knowledge evolution.

Is IAP a fantastic place to be when you take the time to look a it with the eyes that brought you here?

Alfred


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## Texatdurango (Mar 26, 2008)

> _Originally posted by gketell_
> 
> I find it interesting that some of the most vile comments come from the newest members of the forum.  I guess they are used to other forums where being nasty is "the norm".
> 
> Please folks, be civil.



The way I see it is that we shouldn't ASK for civility after an outburst, we should demand members know the rules before hand and say good bye to them when they launch an attack such as this again.  The forum rules are very specific in regards to what happened here and almost every item in the rule below was broken several times in this dog pile.  Is enforcing the rules too harsh?  I don't think so, if everyone knows the rules and the concequences, this outbreak wouldn't have happened.

For those members who didn't take the time to read the rules, here is one of them, you might care to read the rest as well.

*No personal Attacks.* Criticize ideas, not people. Flaming will not be tolerated. Broad, negative statements about individuals are not permitted.


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## papaturner (Mar 26, 2008)

Doc,I believe the South has had an effect on you and I agree with you.

Perry


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## arioux (Mar 26, 2008)

Hi,

Cut and paste from the IAP mission page (Hope Jeff won't mind)

Mission Statement: 
The International Association of Penturners (IAP) is an organization that recognizes penturning as a branch of woodturning with unique and distinctive character. Penturning encompasses a vast array of techniques, materials, technical knowledge, and novel approaches to produce a functional, aesthetically appealing writing instrument. The goal of the IAP is to give penturners a place to enhance their skills, share experiences, and promote the art of penturning. 


Alfred


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## GaryMGg (Mar 26, 2008)

Hi Chris, welcome to the IAP. I read the article with great interest as I'm sure the day will come when my kit pens will be my own kits. I appreciate that you shared your personal experiences and I'll wager there's a lot more interesting tidbits to come. 

I've learned something else from this thread to add to the `Axioms of Peaceful discussions': *Don't talk religion, politics, nor pen-making.* [}][}] 

_And Doc, you turned out awright for a Yankee_ []

cheers,
G


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## Johneone (Mar 26, 2008)

As a newcomer to the IAP I would like to say that Chris's insight into making pens was exactly what I hoped I would find here.

We all strive for perfection in what we do - each has a different idea of what that is.  I am currently making kit pens, but strive to make pens that remind me of the ones I use in my youth.  E.G. Closed end pens with threads in the body of the material.

I have learned a lot from reading articles here and am glad that we have people who want to push the boundaries and create attractive pens.  I do not consider that a pen has to be a one off to be attractive - it's the design that counts, and the skill in creating it.  Sometimes that means that you use a high price piece of equipment to get the precision that you need.

If you can afford it fine.


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## rdunn12 (Mar 26, 2008)

Let's make pens!!

Chris Thompson
[/quote]

Well said Chris and welcome!


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## Rmartin (Mar 26, 2008)

I was a carpenter before I was born. My grandfather was a master furniture maker and so was his father. It skipped a generation with my father; he became a doctor. I spent much of my life as a businessman in retail and restaurant management and ownership. I was successful in each endeavor, but left unfullfilled until at 35 years of age I decided to build my dream home. I bought a piece of land, dug the footing by hand, and with not much more than a circular saw, nail pouch and framing square, I found my calling in life. Ten years later I was a general contractor with a dozen subcontactors and over a hundred houses built. Then came the steel beams and metal studs of commercial contracting. Now I contract from the military at Ft. Benning Ga. My specialty is metal doors and frames. Just the other day I installed a prison grade door for an arms room. The First Sargent was more than pleased because he no longer needed to post a 24 hour guard. He laughed when I thanked him for his service and told him installing that door was what I lived for.

A little more than a year ago while searching for some exotic wood online, I came across a site which was offering something called "pen blanks". I had no idea what that was. I got my feet wet on the yahoo penturners page until I found this forum.

What has all this to do with this thread? To use this as a metaphor, as a pen turner, I am back to building my first house. Will I take this all the way to commercial building and structures? Maybe, but I can tell you this, I am more proud of that first house I built than the last strip center.

I've been online since 1997, and have seen instant posting of the net raise it's ugly head before, but never on this site. I am greatfull to all the advanced pen turners who share their knowledge and expertise here, but my heart is with the penturner who gets up the nerve to post a picture of his/her first pen.

Thanks to you all, and I hope one day I will be able to give back in some small way my experiances and advancements in penturning.


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## thompenshop (Mar 26, 2008)

_And Doc, you turned out awright for a Yankee_ []

Speaking of Yankees (New York type) I think they are going to look pretty good this year!!!!


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## bradbn4 (Mar 29, 2008)

Thanks for the info on pen turning - while I know what my answers to each question today is - not sure if those will be the same answers in 10 years.  However; these are some of the questions anyone should ask - how deep should I go, etc.

When saying did not have the power - capability, ability to hog out material - or are your pens so large they require the really big machines?

I have been looking at geting a smallish metal lathe to make some of my parts...why?  not sure - but i think I could learn some neat things...

Bradbn4 having some fun here in Colorado


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## bitshird (Mar 29, 2008)

George, I totally agree with you, and also that which Lou said, I believe that we also have an advanced pen making forum here on IAP which if I am not mistaken is for the promotion and making of kit less pens and you were the prime motivator for.
 Lou also sells upgrade fountain pen nibs! if this is snobbery then OK I'll play and be a snob.
 I've been out in the shop carving some wax patterns for nibs and doing the CAD work for some center bands, I guess I should just forget all this silly make it as good as you can stuff, go back to cranking out 15.00 slim lines, after all why should any one aspire to be a better artisan or skilled craftsman !!!!
I found Chris's  website very informative and if I had the talent H*ll yes I'd be making pens like that.[^] I'll step off my soap box and go back to my shop 


> _Originally posted by Texatdurango_
> 
> You know if some of you would sit back and think for a minute before spouting off with all your hateful attitudes you might just learn something!
> 
> ...


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## RogerGarrett (Mar 30, 2008)

I logged in this morning looking for MPG 2008 comments, and stumbled across this thread.  I've read all four pages of responses to Chris' first post, then I read the article.

I'm scratching my head trying to find what was wrong with the article.  I didn't sense any negative, implied negatives, or anything else.  This just seemed like an informative, thought-provoking discussion of the direction Chris took.

It kind of dampened the fun and relaxed experience from Champaign yesterday.  I wish I hadn't read this thread - but on the other hand, I wouldn't have found Chris's website or his article.  There is a silver lining.......

I hope we hear from Chris again.

Best wishes,
Roger Garrett


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## woodchuckcuda (Mar 30, 2008)

Well T Chris, I haven't read your article yet. I plan to. However, I've noticed you are sure talented and capable in the art of raising comments.


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