# Getting really annoyed with my CA finish attempts!



## philb (Nov 29, 2007)

Hi,

Just had my second attempt at CA finish. Sanded down to 12000MM, Danish oil the blank, then applied CA on paper towel across the two halves of the blank.

Doing as Russ's video says rub the blanks until you get the smell of the CA going off! Did this was about 10secs! 

So i though ill go for the second coat of danish, did this and the blank has gone to a big lump of CA and paper towel. Im guessing the CA wasn't cured and has grabbed the towel while tacky?

So how am i meant to rub the blank with the paper towel until its cured, if its just going to grab the towel and try and make it part of the finish!

Any ideas would be greatly appreciated as ive already sanded down this finish form 12000 - 240 back upto 12000 after the first grab!


Cheers


----------



## hughbie (Nov 29, 2007)

patience my man.  CA finish is all i do and i've only been turning since april. i usually lay a coat on my blanks and then let it sit for about 10 minutes or so.  i have done the same as you before and it only takes a time or so and you'll start knowing when it's time to do more. CA is a quick finish but still takes a little time to let it setup before moving on.


----------



## Nolan (Nov 29, 2007)

Try watching his video if you havent. Watching it live goes farther than reading it IMO

http://www.penturners.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=17155


----------



## guts (Nov 29, 2007)

Phil,are you slowing the lathe down to apply the ca? all I do after getting the wood looking like I want it is, two coats of thin ca,give it time to cure about a half hour at least,Very lightly sand with 400 or 600 sand paper,cross sand then use the first to grits of M.M.(cross sanding)each of them,now comes the thick ca one coat and let it cure,same steps as above,if you don't like the way it shines try another coat of thick,I think the sanding part is the toughest,you gotta go gently with it,anyway don't give you will get it and love it when you do.


----------



## philb (Nov 29, 2007)

Cheers, ive watched that video before. Just had a re-watch though!

Its the part when he wipe the BLO on that mine goes all tacky! He seems to keep rubbing it till its ready for the next coat!
When i do that it just goes super tacky and turns it a bundle of CA,OIL and TOWEL!


----------



## DCBluesman (Nov 29, 2007)

If you are using a true Danish oil, it has no heavy metal drying agents and I believe that is the culprit.  BLO (boiled linseed oil) is linseed oil to which heavy metal drying agents have been added.  If you have access to some BLO, try it and see if your results don't improve immensely.


----------



## philb (Nov 29, 2007)

I thinking im gonna go and buy some BLO tomorrow! Its might just be easier than wrecking another blank that looked like it was going to be awesome!

Although the danish and CA did work on the Spanish oilvewood, but i had similar problems on one half of the blank for that!


----------



## bradh (Nov 29, 2007)

I use CA, wait about 30 secs, then BLO, wait 30 secs, wipe, then another coat of CA.
  The BLO bonds with the CA and also provides a lubricant to allow you to keep smoothing the CA without the paper towel sticking to the blank.
Just give the blank a good hour or more to dry before final sand and buff.


----------



## cowchaser (Nov 29, 2007)

You don't have to use BLO if you don't want to. Just start with CA. That's a persons personal choice. I don't use BLO.


----------



## leehljp (Nov 29, 2007)

If I use medium or thick, I have to wait longer. With thin CA, it should be curing within  a few seconds at the most. I would say you are putting too much on at one time. For me, when I add thin CA, the friction between the paper towel and the turning blank causes some CA to transfer to the blank but the heat of the paper towel, CA and turning blank cause the paper towel to harden and conform to the shape of the turning blank. This is very consistent for me.

The only times that I have had paper towel grab is with medium and thick, putting too much on the wood . This brings up a thought. Are you transferring the glue from the paper towel to the spinning blank, or, are you putting CA on directly in some way and then trying to smooth it with paper towel? It should be more or less one motion/step - the adding the CA and smoothing with paper towel.


----------



## its_virgil (Nov 29, 2007)

I use boiled linseed oil first and then CA. I do not wait for it to dry...it dries fast. I do 4 or 5 coats one right after the other, MM and buff and the finishing process is completed in 10 minutes or so.
Do a good turn daily!
Don


----------



## Texatdurango (Nov 29, 2007)

> _Originally posted by philbaldwin_
> <br />I thinking im gonna go and buy some BLO tomorrow! Its might just be easier than wrecking another blank that looked like it was going to be awesome!
> Although the danish and CA did work on the Spanish oilvewood, but i had similar problems on one half of the blank for that!


That may be a large contributor to your frustration!  Don't practice a CA finish on a nice pen, just grab a piece of cheap scrap wood, turn it then practice your CA finish on that.  And as far as using oil, don't get bent around the axle trying to get the steps down pat, no one says you have to use it.  If it's giving you fits, just put some CA on without it and see how you like it.  A good percentage of CA users don't use anything but CA and have beautiful results.


----------



## LostintheWoods (Nov 29, 2007)

Also, your blank is not lost .... just remove the towel (with your skew, if necessary!), sand down, and start over! Unless you've taken a chunk out of it, the blank is still viable....don't give up on it.


----------



## wdcav1952 (Nov 29, 2007)

This has been said before, but read the methods of those who have success.  Pick ONE of the methods and follow it EXACTLY!  Once you have it working well, then is the time to try to adapt the method.  One of the biggest frustrations is to decide that a method has too many steps to bother with and make up a method on the fly.

Attached is the link to Don Ward's tutorial on a CA finish:

http://content.penturners.org/articles/2006/donwardca.pdf


----------



## RONB (Nov 30, 2007)

Good things take time. I goofed up a lot of scrap before I found out what works for me.I now use either Delrin strips or a paper towel to apply the CA, followed by Walnut oil to smooth it out.Be patient and keep trying,you'll get it.The buffing will bring out the glass finish you are looking for.


----------



## PenTurnerJohn (Nov 30, 2007)

Ron,
Can you explain how to use the Delrin strips?  I bought a set recently but they came with no instructions.  I'm sure it's simple but I'd like to hear from you and others how to use them in the best way.  Thanks.


----------



## Ligget (Nov 30, 2007)

I have the Derlin strips too, but I can`t use them properly either.[V] So I still use the paper towels.[^]


----------



## Texatdurango (Nov 30, 2007)

Some may disagree but here goes...

I think the difficulty of putting on CA finishes is blown WAY out of porportion!  I remember my first time putting CA on as a finish, after reading all the techniques and processes, I was scared half to death that I was surely going to screw something up... and I did!  But the second attempt was better, the third was better yet and after a while I was doing some decent finishes.  Perhaps people think that following a multi-step process to the letter will insure perfect results the first time or two, and it won't!  Remember your first pen?  I'll bet it doesn't look like the 10th or 100th pen you made does it?  It's called practice!

Putting a few layers of glue on a pen blank, sanding it smooth then polishing and/or buffing to a nice glossy finish isn't really rocket science and one really doesnâ€™t have to follow a 268 step process to the letter just to get some glue to dry on a piece of wood!


----------



## philb (Nov 30, 2007)

I kind of agree! But when it buggers up its still very annoying!

Im thinking that I have put too much on at once! As quite a thick coat formed before i had chance to wipe it along, probably as i messing with the towel so the CA was already curing on it!

Well gonna try some new glue, and some BLO not Danish. Possible have a bash at just CA!


----------



## wdcav1952 (Nov 30, 2007)

Tex, I don't recall mentioning rocket science, and I agree with you that a CA finish does not constitute such an arcane field of study.  However, if you can find the time to look back through the archives, you will find that many other people have had trouble with getting a consistently good CA finish.

When one learns a technique, it is best to learn it by the book first.  That holds true it most fields.  I seriously doubt if you want your physician or dentist to just wing it, making up an experimental technique as they go.  You likely would prefer that they learn the procedure by the book, and then after they understand the procedure and the basic steps involved, learn what shortcuts will work without lessening the success of the procedure.  No, I am not comparing medicine and dentistry with a CA finish.

I understand that you indulged yourself with a bit of Texas hyperbole when you mentioned a 268 step procedure; no one could seriously make such a goofy statement.  Yes, practice is good, and certainly it will show results.  However, guided practice is far better than wild hair practice.

In short, those who have trouble with a consistent finish, be it CA, Unoxal, Enduro, Deft, or any other finish would do themselves a favor if they learn the basic steps of the finish before they experiment.  In this way, they likely will have better results with their embellishments of the basic procedure.  True, there are turners who achieve marvelous results as if by osmosis, but most of us have to work a bit at it.


----------



## wdcav1952 (Nov 30, 2007)

Tex, I don't recall mentioning rocket science, and I agree with you that a CA finish does not constitute such an arcane field of study.  However, if you can find the time to look back through the archives, you will find that many other people have had trouble with getting a consistently good CA finish.

When one learns a technique, it is best to learn it by the book first.  That holds true it most fields.  I seriously doubt if you want your physician or dentist to just wing it, making up an experimental technique as they go.  You likely would prefer that they learn the procedure by the book, and then after they understand the procedure and the basic steps involved, learn what shortcuts will work without lessening the success of the procedure.  No, I am not comparing medicine and dentistry with a CA finish.

I understand that you indulged yourself with a bit of Texas hyperbole when you mentioned a 268 step procedure; no one could seriously make such a goofy statement.  Yes, practice is good, and certainly it will show results.  However, guided practice is far better than wild hair practice.

In short, those who have trouble with a consistent finish, be it CA, Unoxal, Enduro, Deft, or any other finish would do themselves a favor if they learn the basic steps of the finish before they experiment.  In this way, they likely will have better results with their embellishments of the basic procedure.  True, there are turners who achieve marvelous results as if by osmosis, but most of us have to work a bit at it.


----------



## Texatdurango (Nov 30, 2007)

> _Originally posted by wdcav1952_
> <br />...When one learns a technique, it is best to learn it by the book first...


Cav, First, don't think I was aiming my post at you, I was pointing in the sky when I pulled the trigger![]

But your comment above will be a bit harder to do than you realize AND is in a small way, part of the problem.

If there were one book on "The proper way to apply a CA finish" things would be great BUT there are dozens and dozens of "proper ways" in "books" floating around the forum, all written by accomplished turners so what's a fella to do?

He posts his problem only to be met with..."Try Joes method" or Try Sam's technique" or "give Fred's method a try", and before you know it, he's right back to square one... all confused, not knowing what he's done wrong and wondering if he should have shifted more weight to his right foot while applying CA with his left hand!

I'm simply suggesting, if one gets all mixed up, just sit back, relax, put a piece of scrap wood on the lathe and put some glue on the easiest way that comes to mind then sand it.  If he doesn't get himself glued to the lathe... it's a start in the right direction![]


----------



## wdcav1952 (Nov 30, 2007)

LOL, good one, George.  I think we are on the same page here.  What I mean is pick one method, any method, and try it and only it until you have it down.  Then experiment.  Gotta go, SWMBO is ready to go out.


----------



## leehljp (Nov 30, 2007)

<b>OBSERVE</b> what is happening: Is it gumming up? Then think: "Well I musta used too much." Is it sanding through? Then think: "I musta not put enough on it." IS the bushing dust getting onto the blank? Then think; "I should try sanding differently, or at least try something different." <b>OBSERVE</b> and think about it.

What has happened to <b>observation, thinking about it and adjusting</b> to correcting the problem? (This is also called "experimenting" and sometimes "common sense.")

I see two attitudes crop up from failure:

1.  "I followed the steps and it don't work." After a statement like this, there follows the attitude that casts off the responsibility of the failure to others, to the instructions or the method used, not the users misunderstanding due to rushing to get the great job done quickly. 


2. I tried it and it didn't work for me, - Here is what is happening  . . . Can you help me understand?

Most people on here are FAR more likely to help the latter than the first.


----------



## fernhills (Nov 30, 2007)

Hi,my problems with CA is the fumes and the smoke,i get nervous about it and quit,i sand it back down and go to friction polish which i get good results,but i did do a few sucessful pens with CA but thats because i don`t know why but they didn`t smoke so i was ok with it.If i only knew that the smoke was not hazardous i would keep at it. Carl


----------



## Texatdurango (Nov 30, 2007)

> _Originally posted by fernhills_
> <br />Hi,my problems with CA is the fumes and the smoke, i get nervous about it and quit,i sand it back down and go to friction polish which i get good results,but i did do a few sucessful pens with CA but thats because i don`t know why but they didn`t smoke so i was ok with it.If i only knew that the smoke was not hazardous i would keep at it. Carl


I have a small fan adjacent to the lathe to blow fumes away and the smoke doesn't bother me, I only get nervous when the flames get too high in the trash can![]


----------



## leehljp (Nov 30, 2007)

The fumes, whether it smokes or not, and even the fine CA dust from sanding cause me severe allergies for days. I live in a Japanese neighborhood with neighbor's houses 6 feet to the side and 6 feet behind my house and small workshop. I cannot run a dust collector and even a shop vacs here because of the noise, except in certain hours

I like turning pens, so what do I do? Find a way. I hate masks but I value pen turning more than I dislike masks, so I use masks, A Triton helmet respirator most of the time, and a dual filter respirator and separate face mask or goggles over glasses at other times. And a fan on low. 

There are ways to avoid the fumes and still use CA for great finishes.


----------



## cdcarter (Dec 4, 2007)

I've done it all ... sanded through the finish, started sanding too soon and come out foggy, gone too heavy so I couldn't sand out the rings ... 

Just press on. Try different things -- thick, medium, thin, with and without blo, buffing, not buffing, high speed, slow speed, and you'll hit on something that works for you. Part of this is that there's touch involved, and none of us can tell you what we're feeling, exactly how and at what angle we're pressing, etc. 

The videos are good, and they got me about halfway to where I am now. I have a routine that's working. Wouldn't surprise me if it quit working; I have no idea why. But after you watch the videos and read the tutorials, it's just a matter of playing with it until something clicks.

Keep us posted on your progress.


----------



## THarvey (Dec 4, 2007)

Try wax paper instead of the paper towel.  It does not seem to stick as bad.


----------



## ldb2000 (Dec 4, 2007)

and keep the wax paper moving back and forth fast . I use one coat of thin and one coat of med then one or two more coats of thin sanding in between....works for me and its easy and fast


----------



## RussFairfield (Dec 5, 2007)

Going way back to the original question that started all of this ............... 

<b>This is written for the 1st time user of the CA/BLO finish.</b>
We often forget that we a talking to someone new to the game of finishing pens. That means that the nuances and details of the finishes are missed when they try to apply the finish. Everything is there in the video, but I may be guilty of not pointing these things out, or making the assumption that some things are abvious. 

<b>This is a CA/BLO finish.</b>
This is not the CA/Watco finish, not the BLO/CA finish, not the CA/CA finish, and not any other combination of CA glues and oils. This is the CA/BLO finish where the CA Glue is applied to the clean surface and then overcoated with Boiled Linseed Oil. This is the finish that the question was about, and this is the finish that the following remarks are about. 

<b>The BLO in the description is Boiled Linseed Oil.</b> 
You are on your own if you use any other oil because the chemistry is not the same. Other finishing oils could work, but not all of them will work as well, and some won't work at all. The biggest difference is that most manufactured oil finishes are not Boiled Linseed Oil, and most of them do not contain Boiled Linseed Oil. They are Soybean Oil with different oxidizers, and therefore a different chemistry with different results.

<b>Use a lot of oil.</b> 
There is no such thing as too much oil. There is a tendency among new users of the CA/BLO finish to skimp on the oil when it is put on over the CA glue. Use enough oil that there is still oil on the surface of the pen after the CA Glue has cured. You can always wipe off the excess oil before going on to the next application, and you can always start cutting back on the oil after you have figuerd out how to get a smooth finish every time.. 

<b>Keep the applicator in constant motion from start to finish</b>
The wood should be spinning in the lathe and the applicator in constant motion across the surface. DO NOT stop until the CA Glue has cured. 

<b>Use a slow curing glue, and the slower the better</b>
The objective is to get a smooth surface of CA glue on the wood before it starts to cure. The Boiled Linseed Oil acts as an accelerator for the curing of the CA Glue, and that means a slower curing glue will have to be used to compensate for this faster curing. I don't know of anyone who is quick enough to use the fastest curing CA glues.

<b>Do not use an accelerator with this finish.</b> 
The accelerator will react with the CA Glue from several minutes to an hour or more after it has been applied and appears to have totally evaporated. This can have an adverse effect on the chemical reaction that is taking place between the CA Glue and the BLO.

Using accellerators to clean the wood and coping with the reaction with the CA Glue is something that should be left until you have some experience with CA Glue finishes, and not on the first one. Save that until you have finished a few pens. 

<b>The finish will not always be a high gloss</b>
This is a common complaint with this finish because we confuse smooth with gloss. The finishing gods sometimes gang up on us and we do not get a super high gloss with the CA/BLO finish, but done right, it will always be smooth and free of circular rings. If a higher gloss is desireable, give it time to cool to room temperature, and then buff, sand with 12,000 Micro-Mesh, use a plastic polish, or whatever works to get the desired gloss. 

<b>Do not handle or buff or polish a warm finish</b>
Always give the finish a chance to reach room temperature before handling, and especially buffing or polishing. Wait until after finishing a few pens before you start testing to see how short a cooling period you can get away with. Until then, allow as much as possible, and overnight is always best.

All finishes, including CA Glue, are softer when they are warm, and a softer finish is easilly damaged. More finishes are ruined in the 1st minute after they have been applied because we handle it too soon.


----------



## philb (Dec 5, 2007)

Thanks alot Russ!

Very informative and has answered all if not more than I had originally asked!

Im off to try some tonight hopefully! As my new kits arrived form Ernie!


----------

