# Are we pen makers?



## pensmyth (Nov 5, 2010)

My wife and I went to the Columbus, Ohio Pen Show today. I've heard about it in the past but never been able to go even though its not far from home. We had a very enjoyable time looking at ALL the pens. Classics, collectibles and some very nice fountain pens. Jeff Powell was there with a fantastic display of his pens as was Barry Gross. Every table I stopped at the vendor would ask "are you a collector?" and I'd answer yes, but mainly I make my pens and we'd head off on to discussions about our "hobby" quite enjoyable until I came to one table and the vendor asked if I was a collector. I gave my response  as above and before I could finish she said "Oh, you don't make pens you just turn them" and she continued on as to why hers where hand made verses what I just turn. I politely listened, smiled and complemented her pens an walked away. My wife left after her comment about how I don't make pens I just turn them. While I'm sure she meant no harm in what she said it still "tarnished my feelings". My pens will never be the caliber of some of the very collectible pens there today but I still think they are unique and one of a kind. What do you guys and gals think? do we make pens or do we just turn parts for kits?


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## havighurst (Nov 5, 2010)

I have heard the same discussion regarding photography.  "I don't take pictures, I make portraits."  It is just a way for some to try to distinguish a "professional" from an "amateur."  However, "professional" and "amateur" are really in the eye of the beholder.


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## DurocShark (Nov 5, 2010)

Were her pens not round?


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## Gary Max (Nov 5, 2010)

You missed the story going on in the back ground. She was having a very bad day trying to sell her wears and took it out on you.----Yup---that's what you tell yourself and you will be able to feel sorry for her.


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## pensmyth (Nov 5, 2010)

DurocShark said:


> Were her pens not round?



LOL, yes they were. Apparently they took parts from misc. fountain pens and repurposed them into rollerballs and ball point pens and such.


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## jttheclockman (Nov 5, 2010)

pensmyth said:


> My wife and I went to the Columbus, Ohio Pen Show today. I've heard about it in the past but never been able to go even though its not far from home. We had a very enjoyable time looking at ALL the pens. Classics, collectibles and some very nice fountain pens. Jeff Powell was there with a fantastic display of his pens as was Barry Gross. Every table I stopped at the vendor would ask "are you a collector?" and I'd answer yes, but mainly I make my pens and we'd head off on to discussions about our "hobby" quite enjoyable until I came to one table and the vendor asked if I was a collector. I gave my response as above and before I could finish she said "Oh, you don't make pens you just turn them" and she continued on as to why hers where hand made verses what I just turn. I politely listened, smiled and complemented her pens an walked away. My wife left after her comment about how I don't make pens I just turn them. While I'm sure she meant no harm in what she said it still "tarnished my feelings". My pens will never be the caliber of some of the very collectible pens there today but I still think they are unique and one of a kind. What do you guys and gals think? do we make pens or do we just turn parts for kits?


 

I would like to hear more about this lady's pens. What made her pens unique and why were her's hand made as opposed to yours???  Did she use kits for the components or did she make her own???

This is an age old question in the scrolling world too. People like to flaunt that they make their own patterns as opposed to some that buy ready made patters and cut the pattern out and put it together. To them I say go sit on it. The same in the pen industry. Just because you use kits as opposed to making the pen from scratch doesn't mean they are any more the pen maker than you. I wonder how much I would have been able to control myself with that person.


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## MesquiteMan (Nov 5, 2010)

If you use a kit, I would have to agree with her.  I only use kits and do not consider myself a pen maker.  I am a penturner.  The folks who invest the time and resources to truly make a pen without using a kit deserve a distinction, IMO.

Just like in my real job.  I am a home builder.  Most of my competition are home contractors.  The difference...I physically know how to build a home and do a lot of hands on work.  Most of my competition just make phone calls and line up sub contractors for everything.  They are master schedulers.  They do not have the first idea how to physically BUILD a home.


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## hasha2000 (Nov 5, 2010)

pensmyth said:


> DurocShark said:
> 
> 
> > Were her pens not round?
> ...



So she's a pen refurbisher?


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## IPD_Mrs (Nov 5, 2010)

Go to any major pen show, especially one that is mostly vintage, and you will hear that over and over.  Many of the older (not all) dealers will look down on what we do.  Much of it is from ignorance and exposure to the early days of this hobby.  There are also many from these shows that see the value in what we do and embrace as well as encourage it.  A good example of this is Stan who runs the LA Pen Show and Aaron from Pentiques.  As our hobby expands with more quality items and more people going kit-less, this barrier will eventually crumble in my opinion.


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## Jmhoff10500 (Nov 5, 2010)

:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin: Only on the weekends, and when her internet is down so when cant order new pen parts...:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:




hasha2000 said:


> pensmyth said:
> 
> 
> > DurocShark said:
> ...


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## jttheclockman (Nov 5, 2010)

MesquiteMan said:


> If you use a kit, I would have to agree with her. I only use kits and do not consider myself a pen maker. I am a penturner. The folks who invest the time and resources to truly make a pen without using a kit deserve a distinction, IMO.
> 
> Just like in my real job. I am a home builder. Most of my competition are home contractors. The difference...I physically know how to build a home and do a lot of hands on work. Most of my competition just make phone calls and line up sub contractors for everything. They are master schedulers. They do not have the first idea how to physically BUILD a home.


 

Just symantics to me. You can find this argument in every field. I am a clockmaker but because I do not make the workings doesn't qualify me as a clockmaker???  Age old question again has been asked for ages, is scrollsawing art or just woodworking.???  Is turning an art or woodworking???  Is pen making or pen  turning an art???  Symantics!!!!!!!


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## Chasper (Nov 5, 2010)

I think there is a point somewhere along the way when we stop being pen turners and start being pen makers, sometimes I think I'm there, sometimes not.  Very good quality is the first step, then some creativity in matching up the right blanks with the right components, then a heavy dose of artistry to be eye catching.  Then lots more creativity to carve out a look that truely stands out.  Early on people look at the pens and say they are very pretty, when they start saying "wow, that is amazing," you are probably there.


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## Grizz (Nov 5, 2010)

Did she 'make' the nib?  Did she make her own ink?  Just where does penmaking begin and where Penturning end?


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## Parson (Nov 5, 2010)

Although I feel she should have kept her snarky comment to herself, I see what she means. I'm a pen turner right now. I aspire to be a pen maker in the future though and make kitless pens with a tap and die set.


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## ldb2000 (Nov 5, 2010)

Penturner is a misnomer , do you take a piece of wood and turn it on a lathe to be a working pen without doing anything else ? No , you turn a blank into a pen body then assemble it into a working pen , in other words make a pen = Penmaker . I consider myself a penmaker , I use Aluminum or Brass and resin or wood and create a pen . The only difference is the level of construction , my pens are more original but they are still made in a very similar way  . 
For her to make the distinction between herself and you is wrong , unless she makes the nib and feed and other internals herself . Turning a body for a donor section is no different then you making a body for a bag of premade parts . If she can make the nib and feed herself she will be considered a Master Penmaker but again it is just a distinction of the level of construction .


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## terryf (Nov 5, 2010)

By virtue of this argument, most famous pen making companies aren't pen makers as a lot of them use german made nibs for their fountain pens.


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## Andrew Arndts (Nov 5, 2010)

pensmyth said:


> DurocShark said:
> 
> 
> > Were her pens not round?
> ...



Huh, doesn't Chip Foose take a car that has been beaten to this side of a junk yard and turn it into a one that the original manufactures would only dream of being able to have on a showroom floor. Though he if very talented, he is not a Car Maker.  

I turned to my wife and asked her, "Am I a pen turner or a pen maker?"  She paused and said, "your a wood turner and from that you are a pen maker."


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## Pens By Scott (Nov 5, 2010)

pensmyth said:


> DurocShark said:
> 
> 
> > Were her pens not round?
> ...



Oh, so she doesn't "make" pens either, if you use her analogy.  She doesn't even turn them, she's just a backyard pen mechanic?  Dr. Frankenstein maybe?

I look at it this way, we all make our pens, they don't come pre-assembled, or with a blank that only fits the one kit, or told it needs to be made from wood, etc.

On this site, I have seen amazing works of art!

Think about painting, Monet, Van Gogh, Chagall, Picasso, etc.  They pretty much all have done paintings, which were put on the same medium, a canvas.... 
My thoughts...


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## MesquiteMan (Nov 5, 2010)

Maybe we are turners and pen assemblers! (if you only use kits, that is)

If you tear open a package of cookie dough and put the pieces on a cookie sheet and back, does that make you a baker?  What about taking a paint by number and coloring in the areas.  Does that make you a painter?

Of course none of this make a hill of beans difference.  it is just an argument that IAP has become so famous for!


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## mredburn (Nov 5, 2010)

The logo says International Association of penturners. I think a lot of where you draw the line is in your own definition of what a pen maker is and what a pen turner is. It changes with each individual.  She just wanted to feel better about herself. And since she can easier belittle your efforts to make herself feel better she takes that route.


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## Ankrom Exotics (Nov 5, 2010)

My father is a world class custom knifemaker. He cuts out his own blades from bar stock steel. He grinds the blades. He performs his own heat treating. He even makes his own screws. He performs very aspect of construction and finishing. He has worked hard for nearly 40 years earning his reputation as one of the best.

There are companies that sell knife "kits" that include a pre-cut, pre-ground, pre-heat treated blade. They include guards that are pre-shaped, etc.... The person completing the kits needs to assemble the parts, attach and shape handle material and perform all sanding and buffing.

They need to do a lot more to complete that knife than I do to finish a pen but I still don't consider them 'knifemakers'. To me 'assembler' is a more appropriate word. 

So for now and the foreseeable future I'll be content to refer to myself as a 'penturner'.


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## Smitty37 (Nov 5, 2010)

*What about?*



MesquiteMan said:


> If you use a kit, I would have to agree with her. I only use kits and do not consider myself a pen maker. I am a penturner. The folks who invest the time and resources to truly make a pen without using a kit deserve a distinction, IMO.
> 
> Just like in my real job. I am a home builder. Most of my competition are home contractors. The difference...I physically know how to build a home and do a lot of hands on work. Most of my competition just make phone calls and line up sub contractors for everything. They are master schedulers. They do not have the first idea how to physically BUILD a home.


 
I also consider myself a penturner but I'd also be inclined to think that there is no difference.  If I purchase even one of the parts I use and use it without modification then I am just using a smaller component set than I usually use. even if that is just a ball point refill.


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## OKLAHOMAN (Nov 5, 2010)

So what do we call, Cross,Mont Blanc,Parker,Conway Stewart,Sheaffer,Omas ect.?
Penmakers? Mass Producers?


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## Russianwolf (Nov 6, 2010)

You try figuring out where one term ends and the other begins.......

http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/guides/jewel...se of the terms hand-made, hand-polished, etc.


> § 23.3 Misuse of the terms "hand-made," "hand-polished," etc.
> 
> (a) It is unfair or deceptive to represent, directly or by implication, that any industry product is hand-made or hand-wrought unless the entire shaping and forming of such product from raw materials and its finishing and decoration were accomplished by hand labor and manually-controlled methods which permit the maker to control and vary the construction, shape, design, and finish of each part of each individual product.
> 
> ...


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## ctubbs (Nov 6, 2010)

I'm sorry!  I do not see the big uproar over one inconsiderate pen seller self inflating herself to make herself feel more important than her potiential customer.  Her biggest problem is very bad salesmanship.  Did she manage to sell anyone in your party a pen she had so wonderfully "made"?  I doubt it, I know I would not have spent any more of my time listening to her blathering.  You were very considerate to stand there and share your time with her.  Congratulations on being so considerate.
Charles


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## ldb2000 (Nov 6, 2010)

OKLAHOMAN said:


> So what do we call, Cross,Mont Blanc,Parker,Conway Stewart,Sheaffer,Omas ect.?
> Penmakers? Mass Producers?


 
Pen "Manufacturers" . While they have penmakers working for them they Manufacture  pens .


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## ldb2000 (Nov 6, 2010)

Russianwolf said:


> You try figuring out where one term ends and the other begins.......
> 
> http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/guides/jewel...se of the terms hand-made, hand-polished, etc.
> 
> ...


 
Mike , those are the standards for the Jewelry industry which we have seen by the plating standards that the pen industry uses , does not apply to pens . The jewelry industry is held to very tight standards by the Federal Trade Commission . Who watches over the pen industry ?


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## jlmort1980 (Nov 6, 2010)

I have to agree with the comment of very bad salesmanship.  At what point in any of that conversation was she trying to sell you a pen.  Possibly, maybe she should of thought about why she was having such a bad day selling her pens, maybe she was having similar conversations with all her potential customers.

I also agree with the comment about how you were very considerate to stay and listen to her rant.  I personally would have turned and silently walked away before she was even done with her conversation.

And I personally don't care either way "pen turner" or "pen maker".  When I start I have a bunch of unfinished pieces laying in front of me.  When I finish I have a finished pen in front of me that I can be proud of.  So call it whatever you want I still enjoy the feeling of accomplishment of finishing something that I am proud of.

So call me what you want.  I will continue to turn/make/assemble my pens!


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## PenMan1 (Nov 6, 2010)

Well, this is an easy question for me. I am a world class mistake maker and needless risk taker of the highest calibre. 

Sometimes a quality writing instrument that someone will eagerly pay hard-earned money to own falls right out of the happy mistake pile!

I don't care what you call me as long as you call me with an order. Otherwise, they are taking me away from what I love to do. Stick rounder is as good a title for me as any......as long as the credit card is valid!

Respectfully submitted


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## EBorraga (Nov 6, 2010)

What if you cast your own blanks and turn closed end pens where you've upgraded the nib. Does this make you a penturner or penmaker?? Everyone will probably have varying opinions. As far as I'm concerned it truly doesn't matter if I'm a turner or maker of pens. You gotta start somewhere.

I wonder if they'd consider Skiprat a penturner


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## PenMan1 (Nov 6, 2010)

EBorraga said:


> I wonder if they'd consider Skiprat a penturner



Ernie: 
They can call me whatever, and I don't even care!
But, when an artist such as the Skiprat fabricates his own TOOLING and MACHINERY from his own designs- in order to create his own one-of-kind masterpieces, any title less than pen GENIUS would be an insult!


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## jimdude (Nov 6, 2010)

Doesn't a car maker take contracted parts, and some they make in-house to assemble them into a car and thus do we not call them car makers?

My 2 cents


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## pensmyth (Nov 6, 2010)

I really enjoy watching this thread expand with everyones ideas,interpretation and opinion. I admit I was taken back when she made the comment to me and my feelings were hurt ... briefly. But I didn't take it to heart. 
Here's what I've decided I am. I'm a turner who uses his talents and creativity to make blocks of wood, acrylic and other dynamic material along with pre-manufactured components into unique sometimes one of a kind writing instruments. I'm also proud to say "I made that".


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## Russianwolf (Nov 6, 2010)

ldb2000 said:


> Russianwolf said:
> 
> 
> > You try figuring out where one term ends and the other begins.......
> ...



Butch, I look at what we make as Jewelry, so I think they apply. I at least try to comply with them as I feel they are reasonable.


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## Andrew Arndts (Nov 6, 2010)

PenMan1 said:


> I don't care what you call me as long as you call me with an order. Otherwise, they are taking me away from what I love to do. Stick rounder is as good a title for me as any......as long as the credit card is valid!
> 
> Respectfully submitted



Salute, Amen, Right ON!


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## phillywood (Nov 6, 2010)

I wonder if anyone thought that she may have been going through midlife crisis and had to bring us down in order to make herself feel good. In anyways I think everyone got a valid point and no matter what you want to call one of us at least we created something and we love doing it(Although most of you guys/Gals and I am behind you, not quite there yet). She needed someone to praise her work and needed a big hug for it, which no one gave her that compliment, it was the ego thingy. Hopefully she had a better day next day. I think I call myself Pen Jokey. Of course after few years behind me. Heck, we are in 21th century anyways and there are nothing that anyone can make from scratch. So everything we do has some components that is already made. Like imagine when they call it Home Made Ice Cream, how many homes have to really make those ice creams in order to feed the entire USA. :wink::biggrin:


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## Rfturner (Nov 6, 2010)

I hand turn all my pens, I usually embellish them in some way. I am a pen turner that makes unique "hand-made" pens they may be mostly kits but anyone can buy a mass produced pen but they can only buy a pen that I made from me. Therefore I am also a pen-maker.:biggrin: If it sells I am happy.


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## LarryDNJR (Nov 6, 2010)

You know I was going to attend this show later on Saturday to see what it is all about.  I'm wondering if now it is even worth my time as I am just some penturning assembler.  I was hoping to go there and learn some things and get inspiration.  Although knowing me I will still attend and look forward to someone acting that way with me, see how I end up responding. 

Mainly was wanting to go and meet Jeff in person and whoever else might be there that I know indirectly.


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## workinforwood (Nov 6, 2010)

I make pens. Some are kits, some are not. If it's a kit, but I had to spin it and assemble it, well, I made a pen. If I did not make that pen, then General Motors did not make my car.

I do these shows. I take some hits and jabs from people all the time, mostly the vintage people of course. I can argue with them. I can show them things that they can't even dream of doing, I can start pulling out magazine articles and awards. I choose not to. What they think about what I do is not important to me. All that matters to me is having a good time. I can't take these shows or anything else in life too seriously. I do not want to become a depressed person, I want to be the person people come to for being contagiously happy! 

So who cares what she said. Come to my table, we'll drink yaegermeister and get kicked out of the building for dancing naked on the table! :biggrin:


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## aggromere (Nov 6, 2010)

I don't even make really good pens, but I bet I could sell more than she can!  

I always tell my kids that, "you will met people smarter than you, stroner than you, wealthier than you, more educated than you, pretty than you, but you will never, ever meet anyone better than you.  They have taken that to heart and in face of a lot of adversity they can stand their ground with anyone.

I have no idea what that has to do with anything, but when I started I thought it made sense. lol.


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## Jim in Oakville (Nov 6, 2010)

She's classic, I have spoken to people like that in the past, I stand back and walk away, so do a lot of other people, they exude negativity....

I don't care what I call what I do, selling or giving a pen away to put a smile on some one's face is my reward...  being famous is not my goal.

PenFantic maybe


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## jttheclockman (Nov 6, 2010)

aggromere said:


> I don't even make really good pens, but I bet I could sell more than she can!
> 
> I always tell my kids that, "you will met people smarter than you, stroner than you, wealthier than you, more educated than you, pretty than you, but you will never, ever meet anyone better than you. They have taken that to heart and in face of a lot of adversity they can stand their ground with anyone.
> 
> I have no idea what that has to do with anything, but when I started I thought it made sense. lol.


 

We must have come up through the same schooling system because that is the same motto I live by. I carry that throughout all aspects of my life and in anything I do.


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## bitshird (Nov 6, 2010)

PenMan1 said:


> Well, this is an easy question for me. I am a world class mistake maker and needless risk taker of the highest calibre.
> 
> Sometimes a quality writing instrument that someone will eagerly pay hard-earned money to own falls right out of the happy mistake pile!
> 
> ...



What Andy said !!



EBorraga said:


> What if you cast your own blanks and turn closed end pens where you've upgraded the nib. Does this make you a penturner or penmaker?? Everyone will probably have varying opinions. As far as I'm concerned it truly doesn't matter if I'm a turner or maker of pens. You gotta start somewhere.
> 
> I wonder if they'd consider Skiprat a penturner


Sure we all make pens out of stainless scrap and pieces and chunks of stuff, no I would definitely say that Skiprat is a penmaker of a very high order.


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## PenMan1 (Nov 6, 2010)

This is kinda funny and exactly the INVERSE of the Pen component thinking.
I worked for a while as a luthier. I made very nice "hand made" guitars. I could have easily made my own tuning keys, reinforcement rods, frets and pick ups for the electric models. My hand made parts would look and perform better than the manufactured parts that I bought. If I had used my hand made parts, I would never have sold a single guitar.

Real musical artists want the unique sound and personal styling that comes from custom made.BUT, they want the performance from names they trust.

Gibson and Martin guitar companies make custom guitars. Both companies use Grover tuning keys for their upper models. Many musicians consider these "kit" components the best available.


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## Smitty37 (Nov 6, 2010)

*What.*



Ankrom Exotics said:


> My father is a world class custom knifemaker. He cuts out his own blades from bar stock steel. He grinds the blades. He performs his own heat treating. He even makes his own screws. He performs very aspect of construction and finishing. He has worked hard for nearly 40 years earning his reputation as one of the best.
> 
> There are companies that sell knife "kits" that include a pre-cut, pre-ground, pre-heat treated blade. They include guards that are pre-shaped, etc.... The person completing the kits needs to assemble the parts, attach and shape handle material and perform all sanding and buffing.
> 
> ...


Does that mean the the furniture I made was not hand made because I didn't cut down the tree and saw it into boards but bought the boards already sawed and planed and used factory made screws and glue in the assembly?


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## DBMyers (Nov 6, 2010)

I wouldn't worry about what anyone thinks, just enjoy what you do, and keep creating pens.


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## Ankrom Exotics (Nov 6, 2010)

Smitty37 said:


> Ankrom Exotics said:
> 
> 
> > My father is a world class custom knifemaker. He cuts out his own blades from bar stock steel. He grinds the blades. He performs his own heat treating. He even makes his own screws. He performs very aspect of construction and finishing. He has worked hard for nearly 40 years earning his reputation as one of the best.
> ...


 
Not at all, my dad doesn't forge his own steel, although there are makers that do (they're referred to as 'bladesmiths'). As a matter of fact he doesn't manufacture any of the raw materials but he does cut, grind, shape, assemble, sand and polish EVERY single piece of the finished product. 

When I look into the little plastic baggie that holds a pen kit I see a disassembled pen that is missing one part. Producing that single part and assembling the pre-manufactured components does not (in my opinion) justify me referring to myself as a penmaker.


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## Spats139 (Nov 6, 2010)

Penturner or penmaker? When I have someone come back to me, nearly distraught after losing a pen they have been using for many months, and I'm able to make them another one to bring the smile back to their face, I don't really care what the label is for what I do.


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## maxman400 (Nov 6, 2010)

I have never been to to any of these shows so I do not understand or know what it is that THEY DO. All I know is that I have friends, relatives and people that I don't even know ask me "Can you MAKE me a pen like this, or MAKE me one this color, or one this size. When I get it done and they are happy, they pay me for making what they wanted. So I guess what is important to me is "WHAT" my customers call me and that they keep calling me. :biggrin:


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## traderdon55 (Nov 7, 2010)

Penturner or penmaker. I do not care what people call me as long as they call me when it is time to eat!


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## Ligget (Nov 7, 2010)

I get a little bag with pen components inside, it is my hobby to make these bits and pieces into a gorgeous pen that customers would pay money for.

I consider myself a Penmaker....


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## Jgrden (Nov 7, 2010)

WE make pens and very beautiful and artful ones. You'd be surprised at how some artists complete a painting. You'd think that they would sit and construct the painting completely from what was on their mind, no so. Some use projectors, some use photographs, some use computers. Your woman was too judgmental and I'll bet your pens equal hers in beauty. Isn't that what is important?


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## Jgrden (Nov 7, 2010)

traderdon55 said:


> Penturner or penmaker. I do not care what people call me as long as they call me when it is time to eat!


Or when the bar is open, :drink:


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## ctubbs (Nov 7, 2010)

Completely regardless of what someone decides to call or name me, I am what I am, just like Popeye.   All this brings to mind an old childhood saying "Stick & stones may break my bones, but words will never harm me." Those same words may hurt my feelings for a bit, but I will get over that.

 I do not make anything that goes into the pens I assemble.  The componants come from a vendor somewhere, the wood is one of God's wonderful creations.  In my not so humble way, I like to claim I made this pen.  Not so.  I just found the beauty of the wood, applied some type of finish and stuck it all together.  If this makes me a "pen maker", "pen turner", or general flunky, I do not care.  I AM HAVING FUN AND WILL CONTINUE.:tongue::wink::biggrin::beer::beer::beer:  There, I said it. _sorry for the shout_.
Charles


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## lorbay (Nov 7, 2010)

ctubbs said:


> Completely regardless of what someone decides to call or name me, I am what I am, just like Popeye. All this brings to mind an old childhood saying "Stick & stones may break my bones, but words will never harm me." Those same words may hurt my feelings for a bit, but I will get over that.
> 
> I do not make anything that goes into the pens I assemble. The componants come from a vendor somewhere, the wood is one of God's wonderful creations. In my not so humble way, I like to claim I made this pen. Not so. I just found the beauty of the wood, applied some type of finish and stuck it all together. If this makes me a "pen maker", "pen turner", or general flunky, I do not care. I AM HAVING FUN AND WILL CONTINUE.:tongue::wink::biggrin::beer::beer::beer: There, I said it. _sorry for the shout_.
> Charles


 
+ 1

Lin.


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## workinforwood (Nov 8, 2010)

maxman400 said:


> I have never been to to any of these shows so I do not understand or know what it is that THEY DO. All I know is that I have friends, relatives and people that I don't even know ask me "Can you MAKE me a pen like this, or MAKE me one this color, or one this size. When I get it done and they are happy, they pay me for making what they wanted. So I guess what is important to me is "WHAT" my customers call me and that they keep calling me. :biggrin:



I have participated in a few and they are all pretty much the same.  You have 3 factions of people.  You have vintage pen sellers, those guys are the most common and the reason for most of the attendance.  You have guys that make pens.  You have dealers of new factory pens.  The Vintage people think that old pens are the only good pens you can get and they are very stuck in their way...I think their underwear is vintage too :wink:.  The people that make their own pens are in competition big time, and it's like a war zone, because you have to compete with people that have the same pen and convince people that your pen which is the same as his pen is better made.  Most people will walk right buy you as soon as they see kits, so it gets frustrating and this is why you end up butting heads with pen makers.  The dealers are the only ones you can really get along with on either side of the fence, because they have new pens, but they are pens that were proven over time, stretching between new and vintage.  If you show up at a pen show with kit pens, expect to be beat on.  The only reason a pen maker would go to a show like this is because he's transitioning into kitless pens, he has a very unique line all to himself and he is making himself seen.  He won't make any profit, but by standing in the front lines he is still making a name for himself where the vintage people will watch and keep an eye on you into the future..you have to earn their respect, and unfortunately, if you are planning to push yourself into a real serious pen market, you have to have the respect of the vintage people. Climbing to the top is never easy..it can get real ugly, and how you handle it and keep fighting on is equal to the success you will eventually have.  I go to art shows if I want to sell pens, I go to pen shows to build a brand.


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## jttheclockman (Nov 8, 2010)

workinforwood said:


> maxman400 said:
> 
> 
> > I have never been to to any of these shows so I do not understand or know what it is that THEY DO. All I know is that I have friends, relatives and people that I don't even know ask me "Can you MAKE me a pen like this, or MAKE me one this color, or one this size. When I get it done and they are happy, they pay me for making what they wanted. So I guess what is important to me is "WHAT" my customers call me and that they keep calling me. :biggrin:
> ...


 


Interesting read here. You are or were just at a show. What kind of show was it and how did you do???  How are you accepted in the pen world???  You are basically using kits but making great and different blanks. Seems like you would be caught in the middle somewhere by your discription. Thes so called old school pen makers, are they making their own parts from metals and tapping threads and such and are they using man made blanks or are they fabricating metal blanks also.???  I use the pen makers guild as a reference some times and I see alot of kits being used with unique blanks being put on them. Now they are suppose to be the high standards of the industry. I do need to go to a real pen show so I can oooh and ahhh. 

I made a suggestion to Curtis with his questionaire he sent out and would love to see a section here of people who attended the pen shows. As I suggested that I started thinking you probably would not be able to get close up pictures of anyones pens because they will not let you. It is the same in the scrolling world to an extent except that they do have contests with ribbons and all. They should have this in the pen world also unless they do and I have never seen this. 

Any thoughts Jeff???


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## maxman400 (Nov 8, 2010)

Thanks Jeff for the incite, I guess I will always be a hobbyist then because I don't like getting beat on. :biggrin:


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## workinforwood (Nov 8, 2010)

John...I was at this show, the one this thread started about.  I know the lady in question.  She's pretty nice to me, she buys pen blanks from me, so i can't complain.  If she has other issues, well I have to bet that most of it is situational.  Like I said, being at a pen show, the competition is fierce, you have good days and bad, and things get said in the heat of the moment.  I have done 3 pens shows in the last year and only made actual money at one of them.  They cost a lot of money to do, you have a booth fee, hotel, gas and food, plus when you sell a pen, you have to pay for the materials in the pen, so if your expenses are $600, you might have to sell a grand to hit the break even point.  Many of the people that attend these shows are repeat customers.  You can't get them to your table until you do the show 2-3 times in a row.  Each time you do the show, you start to earn some respect, the customers see you over and over again and then they will buy.  The first time is always the hardest..they might buy a pen and never see you again..it's a fear factor.  That same thing can happen at art shows too, not just pen shows.  No matter what though..most of the people are there for vintage pens.  Vintage means the pen is 50 yrs old or something like that..just like a vintage car.  So the Vintage dealers, no they do not make pens, they sell old used pens. Some of them don't even work, but that doesn't stop people from buying them...they'd rather have the pen be broke than have it fixed with some new parts which means the pen is no longer vintage.  It's like the theory you don't fix antiques, you leave them as they are...painting it will degrade it's value.
   Accepted, yes I am completely accepted and respected by the pen makers...and well I am accepted by half and rejected by half of the vintage people.  I stand in the middle.  I go back and I'll become accepted by a larger percent.  I carry a 50/50 mix of pens..half are kits, half are not.  My kit pens are dwindling down and being replaced by non kit pens, which in turn people pay more money for them and more people stop at the table to see what's going on. You can't fool anyone at a pen show with a kit. They see it, they run.  I like kits and I think kit pens are as or even more reliable than a kitless pen, but these people don't care about that, they want something unique and special, or old and broken.  The material on the pen is never an issue.  You can use a piece of pine, or a mammoth ivory...it doesn't matter, because high end is not the material, it's the pen.

I never saw pictures being an issue.  Lots of people come and photo me and my stuff. This happens at scrolling events and art shows too.  I just never remember to bring my camera. Heck..I was in a rush and forgot to grab half my displays for Columbus.

Did I make money...well I'll tell you honestly that no, I did not. I lost money.  I lost very very little money, but a loss is a loss.  I did have a really great time though...saw lots of people I know, especially from the IAP here.  Saw people from shows that I know.  Attended some great pen show events.  Hung out with the guy in the booth next to me..he was a really great person and I definitely hope to do more stuff with him down the road, because we both know that life is not too serious.  I made more connections, and got lots of cards out there.  I always end up with some sales off those cards that will put me into the green later on.  And I saw and learned about a few more vintage pens that I never saw before..gave me some great ideas to play with.  You have to get some pen knowledge in your arsenal if you are going to sell pens no matter where you sell them.  So..when I look at all the postives, I came out way ahead!


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## arioux (Nov 8, 2010)

For me. i aleways refer to what my father was saying when people was referring his pens as kit pens

A regular black Mont-Blanc is a nib, a center bad, a finial and a clip pressed into two plastic barrel !


My pens is a nib, a center bad, a finial and a clip pressed into two plastic barrel ! Plus a little bit of my heart


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## Smitty37 (Nov 8, 2010)

*Whatever*

Throw together a pile of parts from a bunch of pen kits....one of us would go to that pile and select a bunch of parts and MAKE a pen. As part of that pen making process he/she might very well turn one or two barrels to be used in completeing the pen.

Another might go to that same pile chose a bunch of different parts and MAKE a pen...it might or might not look similar to the pen the other person made, but he/she might also turn one or two barrels to complete the pen.

Both cases the person took from a pile of parts that were not a pen and turned it into a pen. A watchmaker does not have to make all of the individual parts that go into a watch to make a watch. Nor does a pen maker have to make all of the individual parts that go into making a pen. In fact, in today's world it would be a rare thing when someone does make all the individual parts and pieces that go into a finished product.

My son sometimes makes computers...he makes *none* of the individual parts but when he is finished the combination of parts he chooses form a unique computer, sometimes it is probably the only one exactly like it ever made. He is a computer maker.

We can be called penturners, pen makers, wood turners (some of us) or lathe product engineers .... but in the end we all take things that are not a pen, and work our magic to turn them into a pen. Maybe we should be called magicians


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## workinforwood (Nov 8, 2010)

arioux said:


> For me. i aleways refer to what my father was saying when people was referring his pens as kit pens
> 
> A regular black Mont-Blanc is a nib, a center bad, a finial and a clip pressed into two plastic barrel !
> 
> ...



Even though what you say is absolutely correct...you are completely wrong because you just brought common sense into the equation! :biggrin:


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## Timbo (Nov 8, 2010)

Who cares!  I make pens from kits, and I like what I do, and apparently so do my customers.  That's all I really care about.  I have no desire to make a kitless pen at this point...maybe I will one day, but surely not now.  I'm sure the "pen makers" like what they do...good for them for doing what they like.  I see no reason to elevate what they do above what I do.  I like my nitch, I'm by no means the best in this nitch, but I'm good enough for me and good enough to sell pens.  Never let anyone make you feel bad because they think they are better than you...AT ANYTHING.  Compliment them on their work if you like it, but never allow them to feel superior to you because of it, or more importantly...allow yourself to feel inferior.


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## sptfr43 (Nov 8, 2010)

I want to be a hippopotumus! Oh and I make pens too


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## DurocShark (Nov 8, 2010)

To the computer "maker" comment, I've always heard them called builders or customizers.

Perhaps that's what we are? Customizers? Naw. What we do is more deeply involved in the final product than just picking parts and making them work together. (Though it takes a LOT more time to properly build a PC than to make a pen... )


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## Smitty37 (Nov 8, 2010)

*Point*



DurocShark said:


> To the computer "maker" comment, I've always heard them called builders or customizers.
> 
> Perhaps that's what we are? Customizers? Naw. What we do is more deeply involved in the final product than just picking parts and making them work together. (Though it takes a LOT more time to properly build a PC than to make a pen... )


 
:tongue:Hey I don't care what it's called building, customizing, making...I was illustrating another case where common parts made by - anyone - can be combined to make a unique finished product.  Just like we do with pens.


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## OldGrumpy (Nov 8, 2010)

*Two Cents*

I do not care what anyone calls it - Turner, Maker, or any other name.  I am very basic in the pens I make but I know it is a hobby I truly love and enjoy.  Sticks and stones..................................


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## jttheclockman (Nov 8, 2010)

Jeff Powell

Thanks for the insight. It is great to get a perpective from someone who is essentially one of us. You have grown over the years with your inovation of incorporating the scrollsaw and the pen barrel. But you started here with us making the same kits we all do. There are all kinds of people in this world and whatever rocks their boat and brings out the dollars then fine. 

As for the photos thing I brought up. I am surprised you never ran into this problem and I thought with pen makers they do not want their designs stolen thus no photos. I see this alot in the scrolling shows I used to attend. That is one reason some people use glass on their portraits and things. It reflects the flash and you can not get a good photo. I have had people tell me no photos please. I used to go to those shows and report back to fourums with pictures if no one else did. I stopped going so don't know what the shows are like any more. 

I do need to attend a pen show in the future. Sounds like some fun. Thanks again for the report.


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## MrWright (Nov 8, 2010)

I told a person that took pen parts, watch parts, that they were a "recycler" a person who recycles pens into newer models.  They were not taking a Waterman and making another Waterman.  Therefor - a recycler.


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## DurocShark (Nov 8, 2010)

Smitty37 said:


> :tongue:Hey I don't care what it's called building, customizing, making...I was illustrating another case where common parts made by - anyone - can be combined to make a unique finished product.  Just like we do with pens.



I got ya. Just wanted to be accurate, as I used to "white box" PCs back in the 90's. Then around the millenium I designed and hand crafted custom PC cases before you could order a case with windows and lights and crap from Dell. 

:wink:

We are whatever we want to be. I don't think pigeonholing us into any specific name makes sense. Even with kits we apply a lot of creativity and skill to each pen that comes out of our shops. From the bushing to bushing slim all the way to Skippy's and Cat's amazing creations. The decisions made by US, the techniques, the talent, and the skill applied by US make these pens the results of our effort.


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## workinforwood (Nov 9, 2010)

jttheclockman said:


> Jeff Powell
> 
> Thanks for the insight. It is great to get a perpective from someone who is essentially one of us. You have grown over the years with your inovation of incorporating the scrollsaw and the pen barrel. But you started here with us making the same kits we all do. There are all kinds of people in this world and whatever rocks their boat and brings out the dollars then fine.
> 
> ...



I still make a few kits too.  I have no opposition to it..I like pen kits. Those people do not..so pen kits are not good there, but they are a different generation of people with different views about anything.  You step out into the general public and pen kits are appreciated.


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