# Is the IAP an "official" organization?



## GouletPens

The Richmond, VA chapter is ramping up and is going to have regular meetings at Woodcraft. I'm on the board of the AAW woodturning club that also meets at the same WC and in talking to them about starting up the pen club, they mentioned making it a "subchapter" of the AAW, that way the club will be covered under the AAW insurance and have other perks related to the AAW. My question is, what is the official "organization" of the IAP? Is it just a forum or is there actually any 'governing body' that local chapters should be accountable to? No doubt, there will be a lot of cross-promotion between the AAW club and the IAP club here, but I didn't know if in the official formation of the club if there would be any problems with being affiliated with both the AAW and IAP. Any help is appreciated!!:biggrin:


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## maxwell_smart007

If you're going to affiliate with the AAW, I don't see how you can then affiliate with the IAP as well.  

The AAW would require collecting dues and becoming members of the AAW, wouldn't it?


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## maxwell_smart007

Looked at the AAW webpage, and it says that if it is an AAW chapter, it is covered; if it is put on by another club, it is not covered for liability...

Meaning, if you affiliate with the IAP AND the AAW, your liability coverage would be dubious...at least, that's my reading...


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## GouletPens

maxwell_smart007 said:


> Looked at the AAW webpage, and it says that if it is an AAW chapter, it is covered; if it is put on by another club, it is not covered for liability...
> 
> Meaning, if you affiliate with the IAP AND the AAW, your liability coverage would be dubious...at least, that's my reading...


 I get what you're saying. But what I'm wondering is, in terms of actually running a regularly meeting club, does the IAP even have any formal organization? From what I understand, the "bubbasville" style meetings are pretty much leaving each local group to its own devices. If as a pen club we would like to give demonstrations and use equipment to do so, having equipment that's already paid for and being insured would CERTAINLY be a huge benefit to the club and its members. If the IAP gives no real direction to its local clubs and has no insurance protection or anything like that, then wouldn't most clubs choose to be affiliated with the AAW if given the option? I'm not trying to pit one club against the other here, I'm just saying that if the official club is run under the AAW for legal and insurance purposes, but the IAP is promoted for communication and knowledge sharing, doesn't everyone win? I don't see why there would be a conflict in affiliating with both clubs.


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## Skye

I'm going to (without any authority) say "no". It's, basically, just a website with a forum.

I think you also may be having a bit of conflict with what you're meaning by being 'affiliated'.


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## thewishman

When I asked about more penturning topics at my local AAW club, they put me in charge of it and invited me to be on the steering committee. We have done several penturning topics as part of the AAW meetings.

The IAP chapter is a serarate entity. There are some members that are in both organizations, and the AAW group supports the IAP group - including announcements and calendaring in the AAW newsletter.

Sharing works here in central Ohio.


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## PenWorks

If history has taught us anything...... 
Something with a President, secretary & treasurere do not work.
Nothing like dictatorships to keep the masses in line. :biggrin: 
I think IAP if a Forum , JMO


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## Darley

PenWorks said:


> Nothing like dictatorships to keep the masses in line. :biggrin:



Like Fidele Castro that where the Cigar pen come from :tongue::biggrin::biggrin:


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## DCBluesman

Rather than speculate or go off half-cocked, I will discuss this matter with Jeff and report back to the forum.


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## GouletPens

DCBluesman said:


> Rather than speculate or go off half-cocked, I will discuss this matter with Jeff and report back to the forum.


 Thank you Lou...all I'm really trying to do is have the most successful club possible. I most certainly don't want to be all tied up in burocracy and politics, but the situation we're in here in Richmond apparently needs a little clarification to the rules. I'm eager to hear back.


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## jeff

To answer the first question, there is no formal governing structure behind the IAP. There is a "caretaker" (i.e. me) and a management team, but we are not a formal, legal entity. We were for a short time several years ago, but that governance model didn't work for very long and dissolved. 

Several years ago, the idea was floated of us becoming a "virtual chapter" of the AAW and this was approved by AAW leadership. Ed Davidson ([profile]YoYoSpin[/profile]) was the key liaison between the IAP and the AAW. That idea was not pursued when the management structure of the IAP dissolved. 

Our Mission Statement says in part; _"The International Association of Penturners (IAP) is an organization that recognizes pen making as a craft with unique and distinctive character."_  I'm not sure that there is enough "wood turning" in the art/craft/hobby/business of pen making to really classify us as a sub-specialty of wood turning. There are a lot of aspects of pen making that have nothing to do with wood or turning. 

The insurance benefits of the AAW aside, it's my opinion that *pen making is a unique and distinct enough pursuit to warrant it's own organization* as we have here rather than to be classified as a sub specialty of something else. That uniqueness was what motivated Scott Greaves and I to create the IAP, and if anything, that philosophy has been strongly reinforced in the years since we did so. I believe even less now that we are a branch of wood turning than I did 5 years ago.

Last fall when I asked Lou to take on the challenge of developing the local chapter program we anticipated an eventual growth into something similar to the AAW. It seems to me that the chapter program has shown great promise, and if we have the critical mass of members participating in that program, perhaps it's time to put whatever structure is necessary behind the IAP to give us the same sort of continuity and guidance (and maybe insurance) as the AAW provides to its chapters. Maybe all we need is a set of recommended operating practices for the chapters and a legal opinion on the insurance issue. Let's do the minimum necessary to make the chapter program successful and give the chapters as much freedom as possible to "express their individuality"

Differing opinions most welcome!!! Let's discuss.


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## cozee

Being a charter member of our local AAW chapter, we discuss things pen related at sometime during each meeting as over half of our 30+ members turn pens. We find no reason to form yet another club just for pens as most pen turners end up turning other items as well and it would require yet another membership fee.


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## BRobbins629

As an AAW member and a member of a local AAW chapter, I see the benefits of our local belonging to the mother organization as follows along with some comments relative to IAP:

1) Insurance for demonstrators ( It would be great to know how much this costs and what the organizational requirements are to obtain.  For instance, while any local member can attend a meeting, only AAW members can demonstrate and be covered by insurance)

2) Web site and quarterly magazine (info on this site would have a difficult time making an improvement.  I think IAP is already at least on par with AAW)

3) Annual convention (Hey - it could happen)

4) Resource guide (We've got that pretty much covered)

Jeff also makes the point of local independence.  I think the local AAWs have this as well.  

I have to agree that pen making is not a subset of wood turning.  Some pens are not even turned and there are so many more aspects to pemaking that are unrelated to turning.  I have yet to see a metal lathe or mill at a woodworking show yet many high end pen craftsmen are migrating to them as the preferred machine. Many on the site are venturing into kitless pens, when not too long ago folks were just looking for new kits.  Soon there may be forums for nib making, filling systems, and maybe even ink chemistry.  

Lets think BIG and yes, Richmond will be glad to host the first international convention.


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## BRobbins629

cozee said:


> Being a charter member of our local AAW chapter, we discuss things pen related at sometime during each meeting as over half of our 30+ members turn pens. We find no reason to form yet another club just for pens as most pen turners end up turning other items as well and it would require yet another membership fee.


If all needs were met at the local AAW level, then what's the point of the Midwest Penturning Gathering?


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## GouletPens

I agree that the IAP is a different kind of organization than the AAW, and I like it for that. I'm really not trying to emulate just an AAW club that turns smaller things, but rather branching out into all kinds of areas like casting, kitless pens, and the like. I think no matter what the club is structured to be, that's the route the club will end up going. 

What we're facing in Richmond is that we're having meetings at the same location, using the same room, same tools, and will have many of the same members even, as the AAW club. The owner of the Woodcraft where we'll be holding the meeting is accomodating us equally as the AAW club. To reject any kind of affiliation with the AAW on principle will be hard for us to do without a disctint and specific differentiation, especially since the AAW is a good club and many members will undoubtedly enjoy both clubs. Without any sort of 'structure' with the IAP local chapters, our Richmond pen club will be making a statement by not being affiliated with the AAW, yet we will essentially be on our own in how we operate the club. 

In the Richmond AAW chapter, they are also creating a 'subchapter' for segmented turning, which will be under the umbrella of the AAW but be a different and independent club of the main AAW club. This 'subchapter' status would actually suit a pen club quite well, and was suggested to me by another AAW board member. The appeal of insurance, members who have experience operating the AAW club, and support from the main AAW club are going to be very difficult to turn away for out Richmond IAP chapter as the IAP local chapters are currently formed. 

I see a couple of different options here, in terms of how to address this issue for all local IAP clubs (I'm sure there are others, but this is just what I see):

1) Keep the clubs the way they are, which means each locality is going to have to use its own devices to run the club. This will mean that every local club will have the flexibility to follow whatever interests the individuals have in that locality. The individuals will be responsible with creating ideas for activities and sharing with other local clubs with little centralized planning from the IAP founders.

2) Formalize the IAP in a fashion similar to the AAW, delegate club guidelines and suggest activities to the local chapters from a centralized governing body. This would force local clubs to pay dues and run meetings with officers similar to AAW clubs, but there would be more organization and benefits like insurance for local clubs operating at 3rd party locations (like Woodcraft) and national or regional pen turning symposiums. 

3) Create an alliance with the AAW for the purpose of forming local pen club chapters, working under the national AAW for insurance and symposiums, but having a focus strictly on the many facents of pen turning. Perhaps contact the national AAW and look to join forces in order to reach out to pen turners on a local level, especially those that may not be familiar with the IAP forum.


I'm really not trying to rock everybody's world here, but this is an issue for us starting an IAP chapter in Richmond, as I'm sure it might be for other localities. I love the format and freedom of the IAP forum and I would really love to replicate that at the local level, but there are logistical things to work through when you're talking about people driving far and meeting at a location with sharp tools and objects spinning thousands of times a minute 10 feet from their faces. I'm only trying to raise the issues before someone calls their lawyer on the club! I can't imagine what would happen if a local chapter had someone get hurt and their affiliation with the IAP comprimised the forum and the craft of pen turning.


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## Texatdurango

jeff said:


> ......Last fall when I asked Lou to take on the challenge of developing the local chapter program we anticipated an eventual growth into something similar to the AAW. It seems to me that the chapter program has shown great promise, and if we have the critical mass of members participating in that program, perhaps it's time to put whatever structure is necessary behind the IAP to give us the same sort of continuity and guidance (and maybe insurance) as the AAW provides to its chapters. Maybe all we need is a set of recommended operating practices for the chapters and a legal opinion on the insurance issue. *Let's do the minimum necessary to make the chapter program successful* and give the chapters as much freedom as possible to "express their individuality"
> 
> *Differing opinions most welcome!!! Let's discuss*.


 
*I have an opinion*..... _imagine that! _

The North Texas chapter had it's first meeting at John Driscolls shop where 28 IAP members and guests had a great time converting cyber friends into real friends, picking up a few tidbits, swapped some goodies and ate some good food.

After our first meeting I saw where other chapters were electing officers and getting really formalized and I wondered... WHY?  I started a thread asking our group for opinions and none of the North Texas bunch saw any need for formalized meetings, officers and the like so we all carry the title President/backup president!

Last month our second meeting at my shop with about 20 members went off as well as the first with a few new members attending who heard what fun we had the first time.  

Two successful meetings under our belts and a third planned in a couple weeks, all without any structure, officers or titles!

I say leave well enough alone, this is supposed to be fun.  The following is NOT meant to step on any toes but in my opinion, titles are more for the gratification of those holding them than for the good of the group.

I can't speak for all of the North Texas group but here is what a lot of us had to say on the subject.... http://www.penturners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=39418


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## GouletPens

cozee said:


> Being a charter member of our local AAW chapter, we discuss things pen related at sometime during each meeting as over half of our 30+ members turn pens. We find no reason to form yet another club just for pens as most pen turners end up turning other items as well and it would require yet another membership fee.


 In Richmond, we have people that are interested in pen turning, but we're virtually maxed out on space for the AAW club that regularly meets. There are about 40-50 members that come each month, and pens are almost never discussed (except for Bruce's awesome show-and-tells!). I think many who are interested in pen turning but not much else shy away from the AAW club here because of the size of the club and the focus on bowls and vessels. That's why the Richmond AAW board mentioned a subchapter just for pens. No doubt there would be the same mission in our subchapter in Richmond as the IAP, to create pens of all forms and constantly pushing the envelope. Bruce brought up many great points and he's a loyal member of the AAW club here in Richmond, and no doubt he and I would keep the pen club aligned with the IAP's values no matter what the name of the parent organization.:wink:

That's why I suggested a sort of 'dual affiliation', because many of us enjoy both organizations, it would be a shame to have to create a division at the local level because of the organizations at the (inter)national level. Most people just like to turn bowls or like to turn pens. They don't really care about AAW or IAP as an organization, they just love the craft. And whatever allows the most number of people to share their love for the craft, that's what I think the organizations, whichever they are, should support. I guess this is more than just a Richmond issue, but more of a general IAP issue?


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## GouletPens

Texatdurango said:


> Two successful meetings under our belts and a third planned in a couple weeks, all without any structure, officers or titles!
> 
> I say leave well enough alone, this is supposed to be fun. The following is NOT meant to step on any toes but in my opinion, titles are more for the gratification of those holding them than for the good of the group.


This issue isn't at all about titles and status, but about logistics of meeting. We're not going to be meeting in someone's shop (talk about liability), we're going to have regular meetings at Woodcraft, with club discounts and demonstrations, and recruiting people into the craft who may have never even heard of the IAP. The AAW has offered Richmond subchapter status, a meeting location, insurance coverage for demonstrations, tools to use, discounts at Woodcraft, promotion through Woodcraft, and a strong membership base from which to pull for pen club membership. If another locality was offered that, would they turn it down?


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## Texatdurango

GouletPens said:


> In Richmond, we have people that are interested in pen turning, but we're virtually maxed out on space for the AAW club that regularly meets. There are about 40-50 members that come each month, and pens are almost never discussed


 
Brian,  Your situation is not unique to your locale.  Here in Ft. Worth the North Texas Woodturners group is about as organized a group as one could want, being affiliated with everyone, with 60-70 dues paying members attending regularly scheduled meetings.  This group basically looks down on pen turners as a sub-species but I still am a member as I like other things than pens.

When we have our get togethers with just pen turners I don't feel that there is any less "quality time" because of the lack of structure.  Actually I look forward to our pen gatherings more than the monthly turning club because it's more like visiting a friends shop and a heck of a lot more fun than just sitting in a row or chairs watching a demo after the treasurer reads the yearly budget and the VP explains the yearly AAW membership drive!

I don't think you're rocking anyones boat, but not everyone wants or needs more structure in their lives.


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## SherryD

I really do not believe what I am seeing going on here.  Let me put in a penny's worth (can't afford 2 cents in these down times) No formal structure would be my vote if there is a vote.  The insurance thing is another matter...next you will want to have a visiting attorney at each meeting, then a ambulance on call like the race tracks and then  and then and then.....Get a grip on life and just calm down, some short time members seem to be always trying to stir up something.  I like the meetings that we have had so far and look forward to many more as long as there is interest.   Start getting formal and it will just create a mess, just like where this thread appears to be heading.


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## marcruby

I don't think that any woodturners group looks down on pen makers.  I think the shoe is on the other foot - pen makers resent woodturners for a variety of factors, none of which actually makes sense.  If you want to be independent that's fine but don't blame it on the woodturning groups.  I've seen too many instances of this.

Honestly, woodturners have plenty of opportunity to look down on each other and outside of a few idiots they are too interested in learning and development to get hung up on who has the right to have an idea.  Nor do woodcarvers look down on turners or cabinet makers look down on carvers.  But for some reason penmakers, who sell tiny amounts of wood for big prices, think everyone sneers at them.  Go figure.

Marc


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## jeff

jdwhip96 said:


> I really do not believe what I am seeing going on here.  Let me put in a penny's worth (can't afford 2 cents in these down times) No formal structure would be my vote if there is a vote.  The insurance thing is another matter...next you will want to have a visiting attorney at each meeting, then a ambulance on call like the race tracks and then  and then and then.....Get a grip on life and just calm down, some short time members seem to be always trying to stir up something.  I like the meetings that we have had so far and look forward to many more as long as there is interest.   Start getting formal and it will just create a mess, just like where this thread appears to be heading.



That's out of line. He's not trying to "stir up something", he asked a question.

Let's not reject any ideas just because they come from a new member. I was a new member of Yahoo Penturners when I proposed starting a web-based forum (THIS ONE!) and I remember not appreciating that I got trounced by an old timer for suggesting it.

Let's have a decent discussion about this. I realize there are differing opinions, but let's hear them without throwing stones.


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## bitshird

I vote for total Anarchy, We are a separatist nation of individuals arty:  Uh Oh :biggrin: sorry wrong forum.


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## Texatdurango

marcruby said:


> I don't think that any woodturners group looks down on pen makers. .....


You ought to come visit my local Woodturners Association then!

A funny story.... One of the club officers is dying for me to show him how to do a CA finish because he makes pens himself.  I said fine, perhaps one evening I could do a quick demo at the club and his response was... "No, No, No, we couldn't have that, I was thinking we could do it privately".  

As bad as he wants to learn he won't let others know that he dabbles in the dark side.


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## Texatdurango

Jeff, Glad to see you reading this.  I only wish more people would participate in these discussions.  With only a few, it usually turns out to be us against them or right versus wrong, when neither is really the case.

At our first get together we discussed finding a formal location to hold meetings but everyone seemed to like the shop setting.  As far as insurance goes, I could care less and wouldn't dream of sueing someone if I had an accident while visiting their shop, and that's how I see these "meetings", just visiting a friend!  If you look through the North Texas threads you will see the term "get togethers" as often or more so than "meetings".   

Funny how folks think differently from different parts of the country and I think that's important to keep in mind when considering the possible changes to the IAP which is so widespread.


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## jimofsanston

*Richmond Chapter*

Since i brought up the idea of starting a Richmond Chapter  ( Now i know why they always called me the trouble maker ), I think being a subchapter to get the insurance coverage would be benifical so long as we can be independent of their control. And of course this would help with the easing of the parents in the area that have kids in the school programs that are making pens and want to continue learning showing that we are a serious organization IAP. And yes we not only turn wood and others products which may give a incite to the AAW members to try different things too. And then if the IAP gets to the point on forming an organization like the AAW with the insurance and guidance formally. Until then i believe this should be a local topic. I want to be reconized by the IAP as a chapter and promote it at the same time. But in these times we need to be proactive in our finacial liablities.


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## cozee

I gotta agree with Marc. When I first started turning pens, I always heard about how the rest of the "turning" world looked down on pen turners. I thought that this new craft I have found was going to be just like airbrushing and the art world as a whole. But for over the past 4 1/2 years, I have not found a single wood turner outside of the pen genre that comes close to turning their nose up at those who turn pens. In fact, most do turn a pen from time to time and those who haven't are fascinated by it. Just by my own conversations, I'd say at least 20 percent of those in attendance at the first two Midwest Penturning Gatherings were wood turners who had never turned a pen. But then I have experienced and still do see controversy between pen turners over methods, ideologies, and practices. 

If the IAP were to go organizational, it can be a good thing for those who choose to join up, as long as it is operated as an organization open to everyone and caters to the community as a whole and not a selective type of atmosphere and attitude. But then will those who frequent the board who choose not to be a member be shunned by those who are as not everyone feels the need to belong to an organization as such but are very much an active and contributing part of the craft.

The best thing to offer up in discussion would be the direction of the organization. 

What would it offer that pen turners already do not have?


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## NewLondon88

GouletPens said:


> This issue isn't at all about titles and status, but about logistics of meeting. We're not going to be meeting in someone's shop (talk about liability), we're going to have regular meetings at Woodcraft, with club discounts and demonstrations, and recruiting people into the craft who may have never even heard of the IAP.



Our group is free to meet wherever we want, and I like that. So far we've
had two meetings at Woodcraft, which have gone well. But there's talk of
meetings in other places because the distance is too much for some.
It's nice that we can do that, too. We don't vote on it, we don't second
a motion, we just sort of talk it out amongst ourselves and work it out.
We don't read minutes of the meeting, take attendance, collect dues or
have much of an agenda. We may or may not turn on a lathe. We may or
may not have a demonstration from a vendor.

It's casual, informal and as much a social event as a chapter meeting.
You get to meet with a great bunch of like-minded people, swap wood and
talk about making pens. 
(not that many places you can do this without someone rolling their eyes)
If it started to become more formal than that, I might not attend, as it
would be something different. Not worse, just not what I signed up for.



GouletPens said:


> The AAW has offered Richmond subchapter status, a meeting location, insurance coverage for demonstrations, tools to use, discounts at Woodcraft, promotion through Woodcraft, and a strong membership base from which to pull for pen club membership. If another locality was offered that, would they turn it down?



I wouldn't be in a position to turn it down or not, but if MY chapter went
this route, I'd likely decline future meetings and just enjoy the website.


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## CSue

Charlie, "NewLondon88", put it very well - although he is on the east coast of the US and I'm on the west coast, I might have thought he had attended our chapter meetings.  Our So Cal Chapter group is "easy going" group of friends who finally met in person.
I've been asked a number of times about joining the AAW.  Nothing personal.  I just prefer the kind of "work it out as you go along" informality.  

The following is JMO
While I do understand the liability issue mentioned for the Richmond group, I wouldn't like to go so far as to imply that because our IAP chapter or group doesn't consider this an issue at this time, it doesn't mean I consider it irresponsible or lacking in sincere concern or responsibility. 

If Woodcraft requires that a group or club using their facility to show proof of or guarantee liability insurance, I can understand the tendency to want to "associate" with the AAW in order to avoid this expense.  But I would want to know just how much AAW is going to "cost" each member and if the members are willing to "pay it." 

IMHO, (don't you all clobber me for this) it's like having dual citizenship, USA and some place else.


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## marcruby

I think you'll find that you're dealing with an officer showing penturner's inferiority complex instead of any group consensus.  I suspect that well over half the group makes or has made pens and a number of the others are folks who would be interested in learning -- as a rule penturners make more money than bowl turners, which is why I save all my scraps.

Try making the first step.  Go out of your way to invite AAW members to an IAP meeting and have the CA demo there.  Invite one of them to do a skew tutorial.  One problem that might come up is if your local is an AAW membership required group.  Mine isn't which makes crossover easier.  Glenn (oozak) is giving a demo on corian shortly.  Anyway, the idea isn't to merge the groups, but getting them to talk to each other.  Each group knows things the other would like to know.

Marc



Texatdurango said:


> You ought to come visit my local Woodturners Association then!
> 
> A funny story.... One of the club officers is dying for me to show him how to do a CA finish because he makes pens himself.  I said fine, perhaps one evening I could do a quick demo at the club and his response was... "No, No, No, we couldn't have that, I was thinking we could do it privately".
> 
> As bad as he wants to learn he won't let others know that he dabbles in the dark side.


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## NewLondon88

marcruby said:


> as a rule penturners make more money than bowl turners



wait ...   penturners make WHAT??


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## SherryD

If it becomes formal as a card carrying member to belong to the IAP I will most likely make the decision to be an observer and watch from the sidelines.  The meetings held informally at individual member shops is what makes this fun.  OOPS...did I say fun, not an obligation!
I know what the inside of a woodcraft or Rockler store looks like, I do not know what other turners shops look like.  There has been a constant feedback from those in our area that it has been neat to visit another persons shop and get ideas and share ideas, there is no financial gain expected or thought about, don't know if that is true when you have a meeting at a retail outlet.  If someone has a small shop then if they want to host then plan for the warm season, if they have larger shop then they can choose to host in wither warm or cold weather.  I digress, I vote for informal and want to keep it like visiting family rather than be organizational structure and go to retail store for get together.  I will not become a card carrying member of another association, one is enough, they do it quite well. This has been fun up to now, I hope it stays that way, but I sense a change in the wind direction from the East.


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## Texatdurango

jdwhip96 said:


> ... This has been fun up to now, I hope it stays that way, but I sense a change in the wind direction from the East.



Well you know it's not coming from the west, they are, by their own admission, "easy going".  I can see them now... woodies parked outside with surf boards tossed on top while the blond haired, tye dyed tee shirt wearing dudes are standing around a lathe saying radical this and radicai that! :biggrin:

I have a feeling it will stay fun for those who want it to!


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## polarbear1

I first bought my lathe after a pen turning class at a woodcraft, there were only 3 of us in the class, the class was over at 9:00 pm when the store closed but they stayed open long enough to sell me a lathe, pen press, and a bunch of stuff I needed to make more pens. It was not long after that I found the IAP and visited the local  woodturners group.  I'm sure I made hundreds of pens before I made one bowl or anything else.  As a pen turner I have never felt looked down upon by the club or any of it's members.  There are some regular members who only do pens. Probably a 3rd of our regular meeting attendees are not AAW members, and many of our attendees are regular readers and contributors to the IAP.  Our wood turning club does not charge dues and never has, anyone is welcome to attend our meetings. We have a regular routine which is subject change if we think it will accommodate more of what the attendees wish.   It's great that our club is affiliated with the AAW mainly because of the insurance, we do have demos each month, and with wood, even pens, spinning in excess of 2000 RPM's an accident can happen.  I don't believe we have ever had to use the insurance, most who have insurance don't, but it's nice to know it's there. I'm not sure why some of you are saying pen turning is not related to wood turning.  I'm sure I have made over 300 pens in the last 3 years everyone of them went on the lathe at some point, and probably a third of them were made out of wood. Here is a link to our website if you want to learn more about the Inland Woodturners, we meet this Sunday, February's newsletter should get posted to that website sometime today (Wednesday).www.inlandwoodturners.com/ you may want to check us out.


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## MarkHix

It looks like the original question has led to a different discussion.  I have a penny to toss into the pot:

  1.  I appreciate the "looseness" of this group.  The range of people and skills cover the entire spectrum.  I found the forum almost 2 years ago by accident.  The attractive thing about it was the helpful nature of it.  Anyone could get help with just about any problem or get encouragement if they needed it.  Would we lose that "looseness" if we became more structured?  

  2.  If we became a sub-chapter(s) of another group, what would protect our identity?  I do not want to give up my identity as a member of the IAP to be part of some other group.  

  3.  The discussion about the benefits of insurance is a valid point to discuss.  My day job deals in tort claims and litigation.  I too would never think of calling an attorney if I hurt myself in someone elses shop at a get together.   Could you see putting me (or any of you) on the witness stand:  "Mr. Hix, are you testifying that you did not know a skew was sharp?"  "How did you make those pens in your pocket?"  The fastest jury I ever saw come back, was only out 15 minutes.  This one could be faster.  Granted there are some individuals among us who probably would jump at the chance.  If you are worried about me in your shop, either tell me not to come or have me sign a waiver.  I have a thick skin.

  4.  The forum has changed in the last couple of years.  Things always do.  We, as members, have to insure that the changes are for the better.  Would it advance us or shackle us?  I do not know the answer.  

  5.  IAP is really Jeff's.  I appreciate the thing that he has created.  If he decided to go more formal, that is his choice.  Would I dissappear?  Probably not?  

Just my thoughts.  I may have more as I think about this today.


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## GouletPens

I appreciate everyone who is putting serious thought and consideration into their responses. I don't think anyone is really trying to change what the IAP is, I know I love it and wouldn't change a thing. The real issue is that the folks in Richmond, whatever you think about us, are more interested in a 'loosely' formalized club such as the AAW for the purposes of meeting in a physical location. However, the IAP is invaluable and I would love to promote it heavily and have it be an integral part of our local club. 

That being said, what might work out best for us, and maybe others if they see fit, is to be a subchapter of the AAW like the Inland Woodturners, but include the IAP as an integral part of the knowledge and communication of the club. I think some people may have a misconception about the 'formality' of being affiliated with the AAW....keep in mind most woodturners are incredibly laid back and really do it because they love it, being pens or bowls or platters. We have never experienced any sort of 'suggestion' from the national AAW about how we should run our local Richmond turning club, and I'm sure the same freedom the IAP gives in running its local clubs the AAW also gives. 

We'll be meeting in Richmond tomorrow night with the Woodcraft owner to talk about this exact issue, find out more about insurance and liability and what have you, and I can post more information after that. But as for right now, I don't see why we can't promote both organizations with each of their strengths. I, along with many others are members of both, have loyalty to both, and enjoy both for different reasons. I think a happy medium can be found.:bye:


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## marcruby

This question took me aback a bit.  The people responsible for protecting our identity is, and always will be, us.  If we affiliated with the AAW I expect that other than some promotion of AAW membership they would exert no more influence on us than they do on any chapter.  And there is nothing to prevent us from up and walking away from any affiliation that didn't suit us.

One upside is that our presence might encourage more articles on penmaking in the AAW Journal.  Assuming we were willing to write them.  Which is good publicity for everyone.

Marc



MarkHix said:


> If we became a sub-chapter(s) of another group, what would protect our identity?  I do not want to give up my identity as a member of the IAP to be part of some other group.


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## David M

My head hurts . thats what i get for thinking...... 
Not being / belonging to aaw i cant say much . 
IAP is a great place to read and learn. That why i joined , not long ago . Being new here all i can say is thanks . A local chapter would be nice . just to make and be around friends . eather at woodcraft , someones shop or basement would be an okay place. just to trade ideals , show off some pens . i have never done or been around a pen show ( yet ) . so seeing others work would be interesting .
on the other hand , being part of a group ( a chapter ) that was more structure to it with officers planing when and where metting would be okay also. i am sure pepole thats been doing this has more insight on whats going on than i . more formal could have advantages if affiliated with some one like aaw . insurance , group discounts ..... 
 i am  here for the ride , no place to go , just the ride 

David 
mountains of southwest virginia


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## wdcav1952

As an attendee at the first Grizz-Fest that was the very first meeting of IAP members, I enjoy the loose informality of the way the IAP is run.  That is my opinion, and like everyone else, I am entitled to an opinion.

Brian makes some good points, Mark had an incredible post, and Marc also makes some great points.

I don't think there is a need for a consensus of opinion.  If the Richmond group desires an affiliation with the AAW, they should go for it.  Whether they consider themselves to be AAW members, IAP members or AAW/IAP members is immaterial to the rest of us.  Give me a meeting of friends hanging out in each other's shops any day!  That said, I certainly understand that others might prefer larger structured, insured gatherings, and if so, they certainly should meet how they prefer.


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## Rifleman1776

GouletPens said:


> Thank you Lou...all I'm really trying to do is have the most successful club possible. I most certainly don't want to be all tied up in burocracy and politics, but the situation we're in here in Richmond apparently needs a little clarification to the rules. I'm eager to hear back.



I've only read the first page, so my comments may be covered already.
But, Jeff 'owns' IAP and, I believe, he is the only person who can speak for it.
However, I can't see where there would be any problem affiliating with more than one organization. The AAW can provide the insurance and any others would give contact with their speciality.


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