# Is it ethical to write a tutorial?



## Wood Butcher

I have been working on getting the realistic cigar pens to be what I want them to be and the last one I made I photoed the process some and wrote the steps taken to get to the final product.  Pen making for me is a fun hobby and has been for over 20 years but I understand that some of you folks make a living of the craft or have a business based on it.  I am asking if a tutorial on the process that I use would infringe on another pen master's ground.  If so I won't do it.  If not I will begin writing it up.  If ANYONE has a problem with this I will not do the tutorial.  Thanks
WB


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## tseger

This site is about learning to make pens, or learning to make pens better, I say fire away, brother.


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## avbill

If you want to write a tutorial about how you make a Cigar pen then do it. 

On what grounds does someone have to say you can't write a tutorial up?


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## Snowbeast

My $.02.

Is the way you do these pens the ONLY way to do them and that is what 'everybody else' does?

Do you have THE secret for doing realistic ash?

I would bet that the answer to these is no. You have a way of doing them that works for you. I, for one, would be interested in how you do these. I have contemplated trying a few and have a fair idea about how to go about it but learning from someone who has been through some of the trials and tribulations would be very helpful.

If you learned specific techniques directly from someone who makes a living from this type pen, I would think you should get approval before publishing their means and methods. Otherwise, write and share what you have developed as you see fit.

Maybe the other person will learn something from you and our craft will advance even more.


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## alphageek

Unless you have gotten an "inside scoop" from a master, there is no issue.   I look forward to seeing it.   You are talking about documenting YOUR process to help US learn.   Sharing both ideas AND instruction is what helps make this site great.


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## BRobbins629

Even if you were *the* master, you should still teach.  It will only make you better.  Don't most of the top pros write books and teach?  It's true in any field.  Those that will try to copy you will not be as good.  Those who learn the process will venture in different directions.  In fact, I will be doing a demo on just this style in our next pen turners meeting in Richmond.  They are nice conversation pieces, but not rocket science either.  Would love to see how your technique differs.


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## reiddog1

I say pay it back to the people that helped you along in the beginning, and pay it forward for those who are just starting out.  I would love to see your take on it.  My $0.02.


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## Kretzky

I think you have every right to publish _your_ method, & no-one has any right to say you can't. If you were shown how to do this by a "specialist" on condition that you never divulge the _his_ method then that might be a different story.
If, as I suspect, you picked up a few ideas, hints & tips & then made your own discoveries based on trial & error then it's totally your call whether you make your methods known. This site is all about helping each other, some of us are able to offer more help & advice than others & those who do help are, I believe, very much appreciated by the _majority_ of members
If anyone's is 'put out' because _you_ publish _your_ method... hard luck!


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## firewhatfire

I know how to do it already but would love to see your technique also. Never know when your gonna learn something cool.


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## jttheclockman

I have said this over and over here and in fact this topic did come up in one of the pen contests. The difference about what you are proposing is that no one asked you for a tutorial. You are offering it. Unless some method is copyrighted or patened then you are free to do as you please. You are giving back to the pen turning community some knowledge you believe will further this particular aspect of pen turning. You are willing to share your findings. If you need to acknowledge someone along the way then you should do so also. 

Sharing ones knowledge is something that has to be freely given and should be. Not all people feel this way because they think they are owed something for what time they put into a specific process or method and if they make a living doing whatever it is then by all means keep their secrets but do not deny someone else from sharing what looks like what they do if that person wants too share. 

Feel free to share.


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## plantman

:bananen_smilies035:   Back to P.T. Barnum: " You are going to please some of the people all of the time, all of the people some of the time, but your never going to please all of the people all of the time " Your the one you have to please !!! Go for it !!! I would like to see how you do it. I have found in woodworking that if you gave ten people a drawing of an object to make, you will end up with 10 copys of the drawing, but, no two people will use the exact same method to complete the project. Now if they get together and discuss how they made it, next time they will make a better project faster. Everone has a different slant on how to do a task, and I believe this should be shared.  There is no greater gift given to us that to be a teacher. You will find in the comments you get who are the big and the small people. Jim S


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## WoodCarverOH

I would say "Go for it" I and others would benefit from this learning experience.


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## LL Woodworks

Go for it - by all means!


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## Spiderman

Please, Please PLEASE share this with us! As a beginner, I would love to learn more about this craft. Most of the time I hang out in the Library reading and watching the Masters. I must say, although it is a very cool place already, there is always room for more books.

From reading through the forums, I know that most beginners turn to the Library before ever turning to the lathe. I am not saying that my skill level would be anywhere near the level required to try making a cigar pen following your tutorial, but reading and following the process gives the novice tips and clues on things that the Masters take for granted.

Teach us Obi-Wan. The Force is strong within you.

Mike


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## beck3906

Wood Butcher,
I for one appreciate your question.  I've been around a number of years and have read the discussions, and yes, the arguments, over stolen ideas that were made public.  We've also read the discussions of ideas that resulted in commercial ventures.

The person who developed this into an art makes a significant amount of their sales from this concept.  I for one would like to see you protect that concept to protect their sales.

Anyone who wants to know how to make these can practice and learn on their own.


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## onewaywood

Well I look forward to seeing it. Soon I hope.


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## BarbS

I've never attempted that, but I'm interested in seeing someone's experimentation with it. Please do!


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## Haynie

I could see your point Rick, if he was suggesting writing about the method that someone else uses.  Since he is writing about his method it is his prerogative to share that information or not.  Why should he worry about someone's profits?  As a business owner I can guarantee you that no one is caring about protecting my profits except me.  Other, similar businesses in town sure aren't.

What the OP wants to do is ethical.  The purpose of this forum is learning.  Knowledge is shared in many different ways.


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## ironman123

*is it ethical to write a tutorial*

quote "The person who developed this into an art makes a significant amount of their sales from this concept. I for one would like to see you protect that concept to protect their sales.

Anyone who wants to know how to make these can practice and learn on their own." - from Rick.

WoodButcher, did you receive any tips or instruction from the "developer" of this art?  Is it protected by patent, trademark or any other legal form?

If the answers are NO and NO, then I say the choice is yours and yours alone.

If the "developer" was that concerned I am sure he would have had it protected long ago.

My .02 cents.

Ray


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## booney0717

As a fairly new pen turner i thought i would put in my 2 cents. I read alot of the tutorials. I've learned a ton from them. I dont always use 100% of what i read on them but they give me direction. I say go with it. Who knows mabey someone who already makes the cigar pens might get a few new ideas from you. The more we read the better we'll all be.


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## razor524

I do a lot of photography and I learn from the best in the field, Joe McNally, Scott Kelby, Jay Maisel from tutorials that they do online and in person.  They make a lot of money with their art and do not feel a need to keep it to themselves because they are confident in their ability and know that 99% of the people that they teach will never be a threat to them (especially me).  The 1% that do will drive you to be better.  No one should have the right to stop a person from teaching what they have learned.  I make money with my profession, but schools keep churning out more people with my degree to compete against me, can I stop these professors from passing on their knowledge?


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## Jim Burr

I did a tutorial on another forum on salt boxes. William Sonoma sells them...not writting it never crossed my mind.


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## Wayne

Bill,

You've heard the masses, I agree, share your knowledge.

I'll be looking forward to hearing from you.

Wayne


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## walshjp17

Many who make a living by selling their pens and other creations have already written tutorials that may be found in the IAP library.  IMHO, these folks believe that sharing their knowledge makes the penturning community stronger.  

Most of here do not make a living selling our creations.  In fact, very few make a living *solely* by selling the pens they have crafted.  Those who do make money, in most cases, are merely supplimenting their income by picking up a few bucks on the side or trying to pay for the supplies and equipment they use in their hobby.

Writing a tutorial will help the majority of those of us here who are in awe of those who make these pens and would certainly not infringe upon or detract from the income of the few that make a living at it.  Considering the wide geographical base of IAP members, I seriously doubt that learning to make a cigar pen from another member will cause sales of other members to decrease.  We each have our own markets, if you will.


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## healeydays

I believe that as a craftsman, I should pass on any skills, knowledge and techniques that I believe will help improve the craft of other craftsmen/craftswomen around me.

Craftsmanship is passed from generation to generation and person to person or it could be lost forever or need to be rediscovered and many things are unfortunately never rediscovered.


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## Wood Butcher

Sorry, I guess I wasn't as complete as I should have been.  I have made a few of the "realistic cigar" pens and have received good comments from those who have seen them.  I have received no training or instruction from anyone on how this is done.  Having made thousands of pens and having been a woodworker and artist in several mediums since 1948 or there abouts, I'm now 72, I have an eye for design, form and function so figuring out what steps to take has required making several "junk" pens to eliminate the incorrect processes and steps it takes to achieve the desired results.  As I state when teaching pen making and doing demos for Rockler, my way is only one way.  If you have a better or more comfortable way to do what I do, don't change because my methods differ.  My reason for posting about a tutorial is purely based on my concern that the idea is not original to me and I would not want to create a dissension or anger by divulging what I have figured out.  I watch the videos and learn from them, I find a simpler or easier way for me to do what I have seen and, if possible, pass that on.  I haven't had this much fun making a pen since the infamous golf ball pen I came up with.  The golf ball idea was all mine, the cigar isn't.  I didn't mean to stir up an emotional tsunami, just don't want to p%#s of folks on my favorite site.  Thanks for the comments.  I'll work on the write up and make the decision based on what feels right and just.
Wood Butcher


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## Rob73

I don't think there is anything ethical involved.  You want to take the time to make a tutorial you have every right too.


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## ironman123

I am hoping you decide to do the tutorial, for the benefit of future pen makers.

I, for one and am sure most of the members will honor your decision.

Ray


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## Kretzky

Are we to assume, that the few who are advocating that your thoughts & ideas should not be shared & say you should not publish _your_ _methods_ have never made use of any of the tutorials or ideas published by other generous contributing members on this site 
I too hope very much that you will ignore any nay sayers & publish your ideas for the good of the majority & the advancement of pen making in general.


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## beck3906

I see that I am the lone person taking a differing opinion.  Personally, I don't care which way the decision goes.  All I'm saying is that I can understand the moral feelings Wood Butcher is going through.  

Many of the folks responding to this thread don't have the memory of past discussions where someone's thoughts or design was taken by another and then turned into their own product for sale or even into a commercial product.  I wasn't that long ago that we had a strong discussion coming to the defense of a member who had the name of the product used by a commercial firm.

And to those who wonder if I've used any of the tutorials....

I haven't used anything dealing with pens themselves.  I've used some of Curtis's tutorials in shop work.  Part of the fun in pen making is coming up with your own ideas.  Tutorials mean we're too lazy to think of our own means of doing it.


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## switch62

In this case ethics does not enter into it. This is your method of making a cigar pen, you developed it and are free to do with it what you will.

Others who make cigar pens have their own methods and they can choose to do what they want. If they have a unique idea or method and want to keep it to themselves, fine. If they want to stop others copying it, they should patent it.

Without sharing knowledge we would still be in the stone age. Even patents expire for this reason.

Don't worry about those who make a living selling pens, their sales won't be affected by your tutorial. After all, if I, like most here, wanted a cigar pen I'd make it not buy it. If some one wants to sell cigar pens, they still need the skills to make and market them.

This forum is about learning, sharing knowledge and, community. So please share if you want to.

TonyO


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## randywa

I think it's always ethical to share your ideas. It is unethical for anyone to use your methods for their gain without giving due credit. When I have an issue, I'll hit the library to find out why my way isn't working, not to copy someone the way someone else does it. 

Just my opinion.


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## beck3906

And for the comments that those selling these style pens won't be affected.....

I wouldn't doubt that they originators wouldn't be affected.  The problem is that tutorials make I easy for someone to copy ideas and then sell them heir selves.  Suddenly, the market is flooded with copycats.  And often at lessor prices.

Many pen makers will have designs never shared on IAP for this very concern.  You can think this as being wrong.  This is being realistic in having a unique product customers will come back to you for.


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## jttheclockman

beck3906 said:


> I see that I am the lone person taking a differing opinion. Personally, I don't care which way the decision goes. All I'm saying is that I can understand the moral feelings Wood Butcher is going through.
> 
> Many of the folks responding to this thread don't have the memory of past discussions where someone's thoughts or design was taken by another and then turned into their own product for sale or even into a commercial product. I wasn't that long ago that we had a strong discussion coming to the defense of a member who had the name of the product used by a commercial firm.
> 
> And to those who wonder if I've used any of the tutorials....
> 
> I haven't used anything dealing with pens themselves. I've used some of Curtis's tutorials in shop work. Part of the fun in pen making is coming up with your own ideas. Tutorials mean we're too lazy to think of our own means of doing it.[/quote]
> 
> 
> I agree there has been rather heated discussions on past pens such as Bruce's circuit board pen (remember he made a deal with the company too) and also the so called watch pen, Curtis' catus blanks has come under fire as well as many of the blanks sold today that are copied and peddled. and there have been others. But if we were to adhere to that way of thinking lets just shut this site down right now because each and every person here has copied someone elses work and that includes you sir. There would be no reason other than share stories of our pathetic lives with each other. This site was formed with the premise to further the art of pen making and to share with other artisans something passionate that we all do and that is create pens.
> 
> It is interesting that the person that has profited the most from this type pen has not made a statement here. I for one would like to hear their take on this.
> 
> But beside that, to say that tutorials make us lazy people is a slap at all of us and I do not particularly think that is very nice. How in the world do we as humans learn anything. We have teachers from the very earliest parts of our lives which start with our parents. We continue every day to learn from others weather it be job related, hobby related, sports related or so on. Tutorials weather done on utube or here and put in word form is just another means of gathering knowledge. Looking at a tutorial does not mean you are going to do something exactly the same because each tutorial is one person's view or method of doing something. I say this over and over again, if you are afraid of being copied and you want to corner the market on your idea then never show it. But also if you want to corner a market come up with something that can't be copied using ordinary materials and tools and make it something that will take expense to do and see how many copy you.
> 
> How many of the big name pen companies do you think are being copied??  Every one of them. Just take a look at the pens on the market that are sold by the big names. Heck I try to make my version of some of their designs. Unless you have patents and deep pockets to protect your ideas morals and ethics will not get it done.
> 
> Tutorials do have their place on this forum. It is up to the individual who is writing it to decide if they want to share their ideas. It is then up to us to decide what to do with these bits of information. I hope we all take bits and pieces from many and come up with our own designs so they can be copied and continue evolution of the pen.
> 
> As been said before if you do not want to know how a person does a particular type pen then don't read the tutorial. Just like everybody keeps saying about different forums her, if you don't like what you are reading, don't read them. Simple.
> 
> So to sum up my feelings again I believe tutorials are a part of this site and will continue to support any who write them and thank them for doing so. I will read them if it interests me.
> 
> Good luck with your decision.


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## alphageek

I have some thoughts in addition to my original post.  I do understand those that feel its possible for ideas to be "taken".   However... I think the article would be a good thing... Here is some of my thoughts ( no real order... Just commenting on things said)
-commercial ones have been out there.  
-- Cheap - Cigar Pen ( just quick find.. I'm sure there's more)
-- Not cheap - montegrappa has one from the mid 90s (I'm betting they profited more than anyone here on the idea)
- IMO tutorials do not make us lazy.  If they did, does every magazine, book, blog and post also do so?   I would personally not be nearly the woodworker I am without tutorials of various forms.
- no-one here is immortal.   Woodworking seems to be less prolific with each generation.  It's great when things are shared so that the experience can grow rather than fade away.

Again... I hope you choose to share.  And thank you in advance if you do.


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## beck3906

As for the person most affected by this....
I dare say he will comment.  He's stated his position in the last discussion when he was asked to share his secrets.  I don't blame him for not wanting to engage in this thread.

And for the techniques that are too advanced even for the above average pen maker...
There's a few names that come to mind.  The Boone pens with the laser etchings require equipment and skills most won't acquire.  We have a newer member with a chemist background that has skills most of us won't follow.  

And then there are the names we've lost because they didn't want to be hounded for requests for tutorials and such.  Great pen makers that shared the results but not the how.


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## wiset1

So why not just send him a PM and ask the question directly instead of making it into a big deal on an open forum?  Just wondering why you took this route instead of going directly to the source.  I own one of his pens that I worked as a trade for one of my scalloped pens and truth be told it's the prize of my collection.  Everyone says sure why not, where's the harm?  But there are those who will quickly forget to give credit and take the designs as their own in other forums, or even make a business of it which in the end hurts the other turner.  I say, if you're having to ask yourself if you should do it....well, you already know it's wrong.  Just my opinion.


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## alphageek

wiset1 said:


> So why not just send him a PM and ask the question directly instead of making it into a big deal on an open forum?  Just wondering why you took this route instead of going directly to the source.  I own one of his pens that I worked as a trade for one of my scalloped pens and truth be told it's the prize of my collection.  Everyone says sure why not, where's the harm?  But there are those who will quickly forget to give credit and take the designs as their own in other forums, or even make a business of it which in the end hurts the other turner.  I say, if you're having to ask yourself if you should do it....well, you already know it's wrong.  Just my opinion.



Or an alternative view.  No offense to any maker, but who is to say that any one person owns an idea.  You can't patent an idea, therefore why do give ownership to it? And if we did - Who should credit go to?  Montegrappa? Their cigar look alike run close to a grand and have been around close to 2 decades.

Not to mention someone may be best known for something here, but that doesn't mean they were the first, best, or only one to do something.

Heck, I can recall when the 360 herringbone was a closely guarded secret.  Even with a tutorial now sitting in the library it's not we can just all go kick one out in 20 minutes.


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## Bob Wemm

I understood that Wood Butcher was talking about a tutorial about the "process" of making a pen that already exists. 
So why all the bother, all he wants to do is share how he makes the pen. 
Nothing new about, just a different method????

Bob.


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## SerenityWoodWorks

There are no new ideas...just recycled ones that we havent been shown yet...carry on and teach!


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## Ric5

Secrets, tips, tutorials videos.... Ahhhhhh now I will master the world! Me and my pens are going take over the planet!

Please! There are tens of thousands of pen turners, for most of us we just would like to make enough to pay for the hobby. The FEW Stella artists that actually make a living I have found are kind and willing to share their methods. Sharing what we have learned is what I love about fellow pen turners!


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## maxwell_smart007

If you want to look at the true 'ethics', here's where it sits...

You made a pen - it's yours
you have a process - it's yours
your inspiration was from someone else, however...

Mind you, all library articles come from people who were inspired by other pens and showed their ideas....

Thus, the pen and process is yours, but the idea is not. 

It comes down to your own judgement, not the opinions of those of us who'd like to see your methods!


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## beck3906

SerenityWoodWorks said:


> There are no new ideas...just recycled ones that we havent been shown yet...carry on and teach!





No new ideas?   Really?


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## switch62

beck3906 said:


> And for the comments that those selling these style pens won't be affected.....
> 
> I wouldn't doubt that they originators wouldn't be affected. The problem is that tutorials make I easy for someone to copy ideas and then sell them heir selves. Suddenly, the market is flooded with copycats. And often at lessor prices.


 
Once a pen has been seen then there is the potential that someone will copy the design. Every time I see a new design I think "how would I make that?" and I would figure out a way. A tutorial would make it easier, but I would try and do it better. (better = my way ) But then again,
Do I have the skill?
Do I have the equipment?
Do I have the time?
Will the quality be as good?
Will I make money from it?
Do I really want to make it?



beck3906 said:


> Many pen makers will have designs never shared on IAP for this very concern. You can think this as being wrong. This is being realistic in having a unique product customers will come back to you for.


 
That's their choice. But once it's out of the workshop and into the real world someone may reverse engineer it and then make their own. It is a commercial reality. If you can't protect it with patents, copyright, etc. and it makes money, some one will copy it.

TonyO


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## maxwell_smart007

beck3906 said:


> SerenityWoodWorks said:
> 
> 
> 
> There are no new ideas...just recycled ones that we havent been shown yet...carry on and teach!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No new ideas?   Really?
Click to expand...


Since we're in a philosophy thread, that's just begging for a discussion of epistemology and Plato's theory of the Forms.  

To Plato (way back in ancient Athens), there were no new ideas, just recollections of the perfect Idea (Form) of what we were experiencing, which was innately held within our own minds from birth...

I.E. - a circle reminded us of the true Form of our circle, which we had in our minds from birth (argument for souls) - and a beautiful pen is reflective of the form of Beauty.  

So to the ancient Platonic thinkers, there were no new ideas - just things we already knew at some point, waiting to be rediscovered!  

Now we're 2000 years later - and there are still no new ideas! 

Mind you, this is before coffee and my having driven home until the wee hours last night, so perhaps I'm not making any sense at all.  (just like most philosophy classes!) 

Andrew


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## alphageek

maxwell_smart007 said:


> Mind you, this is before coffee and my having driven home until the wee hours last night, so perhaps I'm not making any sense at all.  (just like most philosophy classes!)
> 
> Andrew



Dude... You just reminded me why I was an engineering major and math minor.   I think i took ONE philosophy class in college! And that may have been one to many for me! :biggrin:


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## arioux

This is one of the question in the daily bash .  What is IAP mission:

Mission Statement:
The International Association of Penturners (IAP) is an organization that recognizes pen making as a craft with unique and distinctive character. Pen making encompasses a vast array of techniques, materials, technical knowledge, and novel approaches to produce a functional, aesthetically appealing writing instrument. The goal of the IAP is to give pen makers a place to enhance their skills, share experiences, and promote the art of pen making.

I specially like the part that says " share experience".    

May the site mission be with you !


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## beck3906

My final thoughts, I promise.  :wink:

My whole purpose is to raise awareness that folks earn some amount of income from their pen sales.  Sharing thoughts raise question as to taking sales away from those folks.

Some turners have tried copyrighting their designs.  The legal battles they face protecting their copyrights can be costly.  And yes, we can only protect our designs until someone sees it in public and another pen turner looks at the design.

Those who eagerly seek the release of a tutorial further the speed of a design becoming public.  It's not too bad if someone works on the reverse engineering and makes it their own as we gain from that person's attempts at making it better.  

There was another thread recently where the OP was asked to provide a tutorial on their work.  I've watched that thread and haven't seen the tutorial.  What I did see was the concept become commercially released.  Will the OP of that thread be willing to release a tutorial and cut into commercial sales?

Enough said from me.  I know my voice will be weaker than the dozens wanting the tutorial.  Again, I wanted to raise the opposing voice as this subject will again be raised when someone wants to protect their design.


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## ironman123

My final thought as well.

Rick, I do understand your reasoning on this and I thought about that when I voiced my personal opinion but in thinking more of this as a hobby and a craft to be carried on in future generations outweighing thoughts of loss of personal gain of a few, I had to make my choice like I did.

Ray


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## CabinetMaker

I am fascinated by how the ash is made for a cigar pen and I would love to learn how to do it.  Odds are, I'll never make one.  But like with other tutorials, I may learn something that helps me realize one of my own ideas.  I think that is the value of tutorials.  We can learn techniques that help us and inspire us with our own ideas.

The flip side of that coin is, of course, that your techniques and ideas can be flat out stolen.


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## jttheclockman

Rick

Just like everyone here you are entitled to your opinion. I read your arguments but do not agree with them. First and foremost it is not out of line to ask for a tutorial. It is up to the person who created the pen if they want to give one. It is also not right at all to badger someone with PM messages and call them names because they did not want to do a tutorial. That person should be reported and dismissed from this site with no warnings. This has caused several members to leave the site and I must say they are sorely missed. 

Anything that hits the market is subject to be copied. It is fact so face it. We as a society need guidance and we get it from various sources. What we do with this guidance is up to each individual. You make it sound like tutorials on this site is going to put pen makers in the dumps and sales will fall drastically. I don't sell to the same clients that Roy sells to or anyone else does. I do not visit the same shows that he does or anyone else. ( Roy just an example, nothing meaning there)  My point is what makes you say that???  Blanks are copied here all the time and sold. 

Again it is up to the individual to decide if they want to do a tutorial and it is nobody's business to tell them not to or to do one. 

I think we all got away from the OP main question and I refer back to my answer as it is up to him and not us so don't ask us.


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## beck3906

Wow, too many thoughts for me to let this go.

The one who made the cigar pens popular has a strong Internet presence.  I've looked at other sites and have seen folks who have copied them and now offer cigar pens.  The internet makes me a competitor to everyone with a website.  I don't have to attend the same shows for us to compete.

In looking at various sites, I see folks who have copied blanks that are commercially available.  That includes resin, laser, wood/resin combos and others.  And when we say copied, it may not be an exact replica, but it takes the thought.

Where I see a tutorial written is when someone has an original thought, although it's been stated there are no original thoughts.   There have been threads where it was described how to make the ash.   The next tutorial should not say how to make the ash, but how their idea improves on making the ash.   Don't give instructions again on making the ash but pick up on "After making the ash, then......" .

BTW...
I'm waiting for the day Berea decides to protect their trademarked kit names.  We could see some excitement then.

Finally, I would offer this to the moderators and IAP staff who've joined this thread.  Use caution in offering thoughts as you could be seen as loosing your objectivity.  I'm not saying you've done anything wrong...just that your position requires you to stay an arm's length away from discussions or we'll need to call the big guys in.,


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## alphageek

Rick,

Just a point on your last statement.   Remember that the mods are members and turners too.  Our position does not mean that we are not allowed to weigh in with our personal thoughts.


----------



## NewLondon88

beck3906 said:


> My final thoughts, I promise.  :wink:
> 
> My whole purpose is to raise awareness that folks earn some amount of income from their pen sales.  Sharing thoughts raise question as to taking sales away from those folks.
> 
> Some turners have tried copyrighting their designs.  The legal battles they face protecting their copyrights can be costly.  And yes, we can only protect our designs until someone sees it in public and another pen turner looks at the design.
> 
> Those who eagerly seek the release of a tutorial further the speed of a design becoming public.  It's not too bad if someone works on the reverse engineering and makes it their own as we gain from that person's attempts at making it better.
> 
> There was another thread recently where the OP was asked to provide a tutorial on their work.  I've watched that thread and haven't seen the tutorial.  What I did see was the concept become commercially released.  Will the OP of that thread be willing to release a tutorial and cut into commercial sales?
> 
> Enough said from me.  I know my voice will be weaker than the dozens wanting the tutorial.  Again, I wanted to raise the opposing voice as this subject will again be raised when someone wants to protect their design.



I see exactly what you're saying. I'm of a similar mind.
"Sharing experiences" is not the same as being bullied or cajoled into
releasing information that you'd like to keep to yourself.. information
someone may have come by at great cost in time, labor, materials,
 research and development etc. Mandatory sharing is communism.

I can't even tell you how many things you will never see on IAP because
of the casual attitude about intellectual property. Many times on the
phone, in email or even in person.. I've said to someone "You should
post that!" and the answer I get is "What are you, nuts?"
So many names you don't see here anymore.. so many innovations that
need to be kept quiet. You can't keep peeing in the pool and then
complain about the quality of the water.

How many designs have you seen here first, only to find copies in a
catalog 6 months later? (with no compensation or even acknowledgement
to the originator?) Eventually, people just stop showing their stuff.

You can say 'It happens .. deal with it"  .. but I'll just say to you
"then don't bitch about it when nobody wants to share with you anymore"

There is no question that someone's hard work and worth are
diluted by copies. Some people don't mind that. Some do. The hard
part for the group is respecting both viewpoints.


----------



## NewLondon88

CabinetMaker said:


> The flip side of that coin is, of course, that your techniques and ideas can be flat out stolen.



True .. but should they be stolen by a group of people you consider friends?

(pardon me, I got a new pot stirrer for my birthday!)


----------



## NewLondon88

jttheclockman said:


> Sharing ones knowledge is something that has to be freely given and should be. Not all people feel this way because they think they are owed something for what time they put into a specific process or method and if they make a living doing whatever it is then by all means keep their secrets but do not deny someone else from sharing what looks like what they do if that person wants too share.
> 
> Feel free to share.



Sharing your knowledge is great. Sharing someone else's techniques is not.

Has nobody paid attention to China for the last 75 years?


----------



## beck3906

alphageek said:


> Rick,
> 
> Just a point on your last statement.   Remember that the mods are members and turners too.  Our position does not mean that we are not allowed to weigh in with our personal thoughts.



I do understand, but this could develop into a sensitive subject.

It's difficult to punish the kids for throwing sand when you're playing in the sandbox with them.


----------



## BRobbins629

The real secrets of profits have nothing to do with how to make a pen. Many have shown us it more about how you sell them than how you make them if all you are interested in is making money. In this case, not only does the elephant in the room cigar illusion maker make them well, he also has established a very good marketing campaign. I have no idea what his sales are, but if I wanted to copy him, I would copy his sales methods rather than his technique. How to make them, I can figure out by myself along with many others. For those like me who rarely sell a pen and get more enjoyment form making them, the tutorials are more like voyeurism. I like demos and tutorials and usually learn from them whether or not I attempt to replicate them. Teach on...


----------



## alphageek

beck3906 said:


> I do understand, but this could develop into a sensitive subject.
> 
> It's difficult to punish the kids for throwing sand when you're playing in the sandbox with them.



Except in this case, if we aren't allowed to play in the sandbox, we wouldn't be here at all.  All of the mods and managers are members first.

( and we are pretty good about separating our playing from our other duties - so I wouldn't be too concerned)


----------



## Ed McDonnell

I find myself wondering how many people, who complain about their ideas being stolen, have been inspired by or borrowed other peoples ideas to get to the point where they have developed an "original" (at least to them) idea that others might find worthy of borrowing or using as an inspiration.  Those who were happy to take, but were not willing to give back were probably not going to hang around once they had taken all that was available anyway.  Whether somebody copied them or not.

There have been some very talented and very generous (with their knowledge) people on this site.  I still see them posting.  I'm not sure who has gone missing.  Guess I haven't been around long enough.

If an idea is easy to copy and cheap to make, then it is naive to think somebody won't eventually copy it and offer it cheaper than your original pricing.  Whether you show it here or not.  The fiercest competitors are the ones who constantly innovate and stay ahead of their competition with new ideas. 

Ed


----------



## beck3906

Hmmmm.......

Doc doesn't post as frequently as he was.  It could be he's just been busy and having fun making things.

What happened to Timebandit?  A talent that hasn't been seen lately.  

And yes, there were several before your time joining.

And we've been fortunate to haven a couple rejoin but it took a lot of work to convince them things had changed.

Toni doesn't show her work as frequently as she did.

And how many remember Gary Max?  Another talent that probably won't return.


----------



## Ed McDonnell

Hi Rick - I wonder if some of the ones you mention don't show as much anymore because they aren't doing anything new these days?  Some may have built a customer base that buys as much as they can produce of their current creations and they don't need the free advertising anymore.  Once they come up with a new product that needs promoting to develop a customer base they might be back and posting again.

Then there is always the possibility that some have moved beyond making pens and are pursuing other interests. Or they've achieved so much commercial success with their pens that they don't have time for socializing on the forums anymore.

I have a lot of different interests and participate in a lot of different forums.  
By my observation, they best forums are dynamic.  In most of them there is a small handful of members who have been there from the beginning.  Most of the members are transient.  They come and they go.  Recognized talent is periodically lost, but new talent is frequently gained.  The most vibrant and interesting forums are the ones where ideas are freely and frequently shared.  The forums where making money becomes the primary focus of the members seem to wither and die in short order.

Ed


----------



## NewLondon88

parklandturner said:


> The most vibrant and interesting forums are the ones where ideas are freely and frequently shared.  The forums where making money becomes the primary focus of the members seem to wither and die in short order.
> 
> Ed



You present those two ideas as if they are diametrically opposed. Are
you saying that we either share all of our ideas and the forum flourishes
or we are all money grubbing capitalist pigs?

Or are you saying that if anyone is looking to profit by their hard work, 
they don't belong in a related forum?


----------



## NewLondon88

Rick .. I wasn't trying to get people to figure out a puzzle.
In fact, some still post here, they just hold their cards a 
little closer to the vest.


----------



## beck3906

Some of the thoughts about why a tutorial is needed is for those members yet to join, say those in the 2-5 year out timeframe.  We can save them a lot of time by documenting what we've done.

So, if there are no new ideas, just recycled ones, let's get it all documented and close things down.  There won't be anything for folks 5 years from now to do.   :biggrin:


----------



## NewLondon88

beck3906 said:


> So, if there are no new ideas, just recycled ones, let's get it all documented and close things down.  There won't be anything for folks 5 years from now to do.   :biggrin:



LOL .. the IAP could be reduced to a series of PDF's.

Look, I'm not telling anyone to do anything, or not to do anything..
.. except perhaps think beyond "this is what I want"
This happens everywhere. Can I change it? No. Doesn't mean I
have to like it, or have to keep quiet when I feel it isn't right.
But it surprises me when I see these threads. It surprises me because
for the most part people here show concern when this happens on a
larger scale. Again, look at China. For the last several decades they have
made it a national practice to take other's ideas and monetize them.
Tens of millions of jobs have gone overseas, never to come back.
How did they do this? They copied what they saw and sold it cheaper
and diluted the value of the products and changed the market.
This is the same thing, only on a different scale. 

Those that want to share their own work should be free to do so, and
will get a lot of thanks. But I think that sharing someone else's ideas
or techniques (even justifying it by calling it your own method of
doing the same thing) is grossly unfair and it does hurt the innovators.
They don't often make that mistake again.. and we all suffer for that.


----------



## CharlesJohnson

To those who are down on sharing. I have never seen anyone say "Make a tutorial or we will.... I don't think you have either. I have only seen your mannerly declining or just not answering being accepted in kind. Even just excepted, other wise. I don't remember anyone saying "you must'. Even if,or with out , I see a request for a tutorial as stated appreciation of your accomplishment. Please concider this." Thank you for the complement." And leave it there. Sharply responding only comes across to me as expression of your feelings of guilt in you response. I know. This will probaly be seen as cause for more of the same by many. But I care enough for you to take that for your sake. I would never say "You must" with out adding some thing like LOL.Because some would not take it as the complement intended.
These things said, it is obvious how I feel on this subject. I definitely support those who have ideas they don't want to share. Legally theirs or not. I don't care. If not legally, don't complain when we figure out our own way. Even if we share it . It is our own way. As for those who have angryly left because of being given given the complement of being asked for help so we can do as well,I' m sorry we lost them. I would like to know and aprecciate them as well as I feel I do of so many here. I have had many ideas that others have made a lot of money on. I know!!! I have seen a lot of them make big. But I had the same right to the same patent. Doesn't matter I couldn't afford the pattent, or backing it up. Thank you Any And "ALL" whither adivce, hints or other wise. And for making our special topic 'so' much fun to learn more of. All the funny postings, interesting ones , and especially making a caring cummunity where members feel at ease speaking of their hardships. Knowing you care. I beleive peaple we appreciate should hear it accasionally. Forgive me if I say these things to often. I don't mean to.


----------



## plantman

Rick; From reading this thread and your conserns, I have come up with these conclusion. You think the majority of this sites members are thieves because they use other people's ideas that are posted for all to see. We are all lazy because we use tutorals to gain knowledge. Knowledge should not be shared because it may cost one or two people a pen sale or two. Moderators should not be able to express their personal ideas because of their positions. Than you go as far as to threaten them with reprimand from Big Brother. Now you go on to say " My final thoughts, I PROMISE ", yet I see at lest four more tweats from you on the subject. Your answers, along with New London 88's, are getting farther and farther away from the original question. You had the right to express your opinion, but when you call other people names and threaten our moderators, you don't belong on this site !!! I think it's time to shut this puppy down !!! Jim S


----------



## CabinetMaker

NewLondon88 said:


> CabinetMaker said:
> 
> 
> 
> The flip side of that coin is, of course, that your techniques and ideas can be flat out stolen.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> True .. but should they be stolen by a group of people you consider friends?
> 
> (pardon me, I got a new pot stirrer for my birthday!)
Click to expand...


Friends, no.  Lurkers, maybe.


----------



## CharlesJohnson

As for our staff, they are first and for most, valued and appreciated members.  And they are really good to us.  Both as members "and" staff!!!


----------



## Dwayne Gettleman

*Write and teach away*

I am fairly new to the hobby. Any new information or lessons I can learn is great. I say write and teach away,  Thanks


----------



## eliasbboy

I would welcome a tutorial.  Even if I never attempt the EXACT pen shown, I always learn SOMETHING from tutorials. 

As far as the ethics involved, it's not as if the answers to many questions regarding these pens haven't been given already.  I've seen a ton of info given freely by many different creators of these pens.  Your tutorial would be a great gift in putting many of those facts together in one spot. 

Just my two cents.


----------



## beck3906

Okay, time to chill a bit. Let's break this down further.




plantman said:


> Rick; From reading this thread and your conserns, I have come up with these conclusion. You think the majority of this sites members are thieves because they use other people's ideas that are posted for all to see.
> 
> Don't know where you came up with that conclusion. There have been ideas stolen and used by others, both commercially and privately. I often think of Curtis having posted his tutorial on Worthless Wood and think of how far that has been taken. And Curtis isn't even recognized for the contribution or the name.
> 
> We are all lazy because we use tutorals to gain knowledge.
> 
> Many people are like water or electricity in that they follow the path of least resistance. If a tutorial can make their life easier in getting to the result, so be it. There's no advancement of knowledge until someone goes beyond the original idea.
> 
> Knowledge should not be shared because it may cost one or two people a pen sale or two.
> 
> How many sales has copying cost Curtis? Or John U? And the list goes on.
> 
> Moderators should not be able to express their personal ideas because of their positions.
> 
> I didn't say that. Moderators and IAP staff should be cautious in what they say in threads as the thread sometimes requires moderation. If they've participated, it may take someone else to moderate the thread.
> 
> Than you go as far as to threaten them with reprimand from Big Brother.
> 
> Oh, that was a book I remember reading.
> 
> Now you go on to say " My final thoughts, I PROMISE ", yet I see at lest four more tweats from you on the subject.
> 
> Missed the winky face, huh.
> 
> Your answers, along with New London 88's, are getting farther and farther away from the original question.
> 
> No they're not, I'm just voicing an opinion that's bothered me for quite some time. I finally feel it's time for me to air the laundry.
> For me, it gets really old to regularly hear people ask for tutorials. The voices asking can sometimes drive our membership away rather than deal with the harassment of being asked how to do something.
> 
> 
> You had the right to express your opinion, but when you call other people names and threaten our moderators, you don't belong on this site !!!
> 
> I reread my posts and don't see where I called anyone names or threatened the moderators. I did see you Liking most all posts that agreed with your view point.
> 
> I think it's time to shut this puppy down !!!
> 
> Yep, it's about bedtime. :biggrin:
> 
> Jim S


 

Oh, and I missed one.

It was suggested that I've copied something. Hmmmm......
Don't know that I have. I use wood, acrylics, and blanks I buy. If making a Texas flag laser pen from a kit is copying, then mark me quilty. I cannot recall seeing some else's work and duplicating that.

But I'm about to. I saw someone had a Jr Gent pen that had a black cap and a white lower body. Sharp!!!! I want to make one.

The closest I've come to making my own segmented blanks is putting ooppps bands on problem pens. Bought all segmented blanks I sell.

Never cast my own blanks. Brooks and El Mostro do that too well for me to start anytime soon. But I may try later this year to see what al the hub-bub is all about.

And casting blanks with stuff in them? CaptG and Seamus do that very well for me. So, I don't know what I'll do with the baggies of watch parts I bought.

I can only paint the walls of the house, so I bought painted blanks from Classic. 

I thought about getting the local nail salon to paint me a few tubes and trying to cast them. I could knock out a couple of firsts that way. :biggrin:


----------



## eliasbboy

beck3906 said:


> alphageek said:
> 
> 
> 
> Rick,
> 
> Just a point on your last statement.   Remember that the mods are members and turners too.  Our position does not mean that we are not allowed to weigh in with our personal thoughts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I do understand, but this could develop into a sensitive subject.
> 
> It's difficult to punish the kids for throwing sand when you're playing in the sandbox with them.
Click to expand...


I'm relatively new here, so forgive my two cents.

I'm a moderator on a different site and most moderators start off as members.   The rules of a forum do not change once a moderator posts in a thread.

Your concern would only be valid if the moderators were breaking rules they are meant to enforce.   Stating opinions or discussing the topic at hand is pretty much in the job description.


----------



## eliasbboy

The process we're talking about here is amazing, and artistic, and completely over my head at this point in time, but just from the few threads I've read about them I know the _basics_.

I'm confident that I could spend time and learn myself.   If anyone wants to attempt one, I would find it hard to believe the existence or non existence of a tutorial would be the deciding factor.


----------



## jtdesigns

I could always do that tutorial on watch part pens:biggrin:...just kidding couldnt resist after i have been gone from this site for so long.  Good to catch up on things.


----------



## plantman

beck3906 said:


> Okay, time to chill a bit. Let's break this down further.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> plantman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Rick; From reading this thread and your conserns, I have come up with these conclusion. You think the majority of this sites members are thieves because they use other people's ideas that are posted for all to see.
> 
> Don't know where you came up with that conclusion. There have been ideas stolen and used by others, both commercially and privately. I often think of Curtis having posted his tutorial on Worthless Wood and think of how far that has been taken. And Curtis isn't even recognized for the contribution or the name.
> 
> We are all lazy because we use tutorals to gain knowledge.
> 
> Many people are like water or electricity in that they follow the path of least resistance. If a tutorial can make their life easier in getting to the result, so be it. There's no advancement of knowledge until someone goes beyond the original idea.
> 
> Knowledge should not be shared because it may cost one or two people a pen sale or two.
> 
> How many sales has copying cost Curtis? Or John U? And the list goes on.
> 
> Moderators should not be able to express their personal ideas because of their positions.
> 
> I didn't say that. Moderators and IAP staff should be cautious in what they say in threads as the thread sometimes requires moderation. If they've participated, it may take someone else to moderate the thread.
> 
> Than you go as far as to threaten them with reprimand from Big Brother.
> 
> Oh, that was a book I remember reading.
> 
> Now you go on to say " My final thoughts, I PROMISE ", yet I see at lest four more tweats from you on the subject.
> 
> Missed the winky face, huh.
> 
> Your answers, along with New London 88's, are getting farther and farther away from the original question.
> 
> No they're not, I'm just voicing an opinion that's bothered me for quite some time. I finally feel it's time for me to air the laundry.
> For me, it gets really old to regularly hear people ask for tutorials. The voices asking can sometimes drive our membership away rather than deal with the harassment of being asked how to do something.
> 
> 
> You had the right to express your opinion, but when you call other people names and threaten our moderators, you don't belong on this site !!!
> 
> I reread my posts and don't see where I called anyone names or threatened the moderators. I did see you Liking most all posts that agreed with your view point.
> 
> I think it's time to shut this puppy down !!!
> 
> Yep, it's about bedtime. :biggrin:
> 
> Jim S
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, and I missed one.
> 
> It was suggested that I've copied something. Hmmmm......
> Don't know that I have. I use wood, acrylics, and blanks I buy. If making a Texas flag laser pen from a kit is copying, then mark me quilty. I cannot recall seeing some else's work and duplicating that.
> 
> But I'm about to. I saw someone had a Jr Gent pen that had a black cap and a white lower body. Sharp!!!! I want to make one.
> 
> The closest I've come to making my own segmented blanks is putting ooppps bands on problem pens. Bought all segmented blanks I sell.
> 
> Never cast my own blanks. Brooks and El Mostro do that too well for me to start anytime soon. But I may try later this year to see what al the hub-bub is all about.
> 
> And casting blanks with stuff in them? CaptG and Seamus do that very well for me. So, I don't know what I'll do with the baggies of watch parts I bought.
> 
> I can only paint the walls of the house, so I bought painted blanks from Classic.
> 
> I thought about getting the local nail salon to paint me a few tubes and trying to cast them. I could knock out a couple of firsts that way. :biggrin:
Click to expand...

 
Sounds to me like everyone else does all the hard work for you and you just turn it round and make the profit. Where are you progressing on that path??? 
I did not quote anyone's elses thread, only yours. 
After I left the site earlier, I went down in the shop to see how hard it would be to make the cigar pen you are so excited about. No tutorials, no photos, just the image of a cigar in my head. I have never made a cigar pen before, nor have I wanted to. It seems the big deal is making the ash look realistic. It took me about 5 minutes to figure out what I needed, and another 15 to make it. And I bet the method I used is one you have never seen or thought of, and even the most novice penturner can do it. Now if I can figure out how to do this in that short of time, anybody can, and it's a whole new method of doing it !!! Your red answers aren't worth answering as you don't seem to understand what you typed in the first place !!
Oh and I forgot one. I didn't say you copyed anything. I don't even know what your turnings look like since you have ZERO in the photo section. Best keep your work safe !! Jim S
P.S. I also looked up the word promise in the dictionary, and there was no smiley face folowing it. Even if there was, I don't think it would change the meaning.


----------



## eliasbboy

plantman said:


> Sounds to me like everyone else does all the hard work for you and you  just turn it round and make the profit. Where are you progressing on that path???
> I did not quote anyone's elses thread, only yours.
> After I left the site earlier, I went down in the shop to see how hard it would be to make the cigar pen you are so excited about. No tutorials, no photos, just the image of a cigar in my head. I have never made a cigar pen before, nor have I wanted to. It seems the big deal is making the ash look realistic. It took me about 5 minutes to figure out what I needed, and another 15 to make it. And I bet the method I used is one you have never seen or thought of, and even the most novice penturner can do it. Now if I can figure out how to do this in that short of time, anybody can, and it's a whole new method of doing it !!!
> Oh and I forgot one. I didn't say you copyed anything. I don't even know what your turnings look like since you have nothing in the photo section.  Jim  S



Can you post a tutorial of that please?  

Thanks in advance.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





























...sorry.   I couldn't resist.:biggrin:


----------



## plantman

Yes I could !!  Jim S


----------



## MesquiteMan

OK guys, head moderator here...it is far time to cool the embers a little.  Let's please lay off the snappy, rude comments to each other.  It is not fitting for IAP and has no place here.  Thank you.


----------



## plantman

I agree with you Curtis !!! THE END Jim S


----------



## ironman123

Jim S,

No picture...didn't happen.:biggrin:

Ray


----------



## jttheclockman

Can someone write a tutorial on how to make a tutorial  I think this has played out enough and as always nothing solved. Great job.


----------



## randywa

jttheclockman said:


> Can someone write a tutorial on how to make a tutorial I think this has played out enough and as always nothing solved. Great job.


 
Here ya go John. I didn't even say "check the library" :biggrin:.
http://content.penturners.org/library/general_reference/writingatutorial.pdf


----------



## Haynie

alphageek said:


> beck3906 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I do understand, but this could develop into a sensitive subject.
> 
> It's difficult to punish the kids for throwing sand when you're playing in the sandbox with them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Except in this case, if we aren't allowed to play in the sandbox, we wouldn't be here at all.  All of the mods and managers are members first.
> 
> ( and we are pretty good about separating our playing from our other duties - so I wouldn't be too concerned)
Click to expand...


We all know you guys do it for the cash and power.:biggrin:


----------



## jttheclockman

randywa said:


> jttheclockman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can someone write a tutorial on how to make a tutorial I think this has played out enough and as always nothing solved. Great job.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here ya go John. I didn't even say "check the library" :biggrin:.
> http://content.penturners.org/library/general_reference/writingatutorial.pdf
Click to expand...

 
I like it.:biggrin:


----------



## alphageek

Haynie said:


> alphageek said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> beck3906 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I do understand, but this could develop into a sensitive subject.
> 
> It's difficult to punish the kids for throwing sand when you're playing in the sandbox with them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Except in this case, if we aren't allowed to play in the sandbox, we wouldn't be here at all.  All of the mods and managers are members first.
> 
> ( and we are pretty good about separating our playing from our other duties - so I wouldn't be too concerned)
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> We all know you guys do it for the cash and power.:biggrin:
Click to expand...


What's this "cash" thing you talk about??


----------



## Sylvanite

alphageek said:


> What's this "cash" thing you talk about??


It's a problem you can get rid of by pressing the "Donate to IAP" button


----------



## CharlesJohnson

jttheclockman said:


> randywa said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jttheclockman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can someone write a tutorial on how to make a tutorial I think this has played out enough and as always nothing solved. Great job.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here ya go John. I didn't even say "check the library" :biggrin:.
> http://content.penturners.org/library/general_reference/writingatutorial.pdf
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I like it.:biggrin:
Click to expand...

 
Thanks for posting this.  Not that I am near ready to do it now.  It is reading the many great tutorials we are so blessed with that has lead to this interest.  Thanks to each you for providing these.


----------



## Dale Allen

randywa said:


> jttheclockman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can someone write a tutorial on how to make a tutorial I think this has played out enough and as always nothing solved. Great job.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here ya go John. I didn't even say "check the library" :biggrin:.
> http://content.penturners.org/library/general_reference/writingatutorial.pdf
Click to expand...


Ah-ha....so someone did make a pen that has the ink on the same end as the clip.
Now I don't have to re-idea that!:biggrin:


----------



## MartinPens

Bill,

I think your character is of high quality when you take the time to post and ask if it would hurt anyones feelings to post a tutorial on something. I've had two other members PM, asking me if I minded if they post tutorials on cigar replica pens. I haven't shared my methods, so no one is posting my exact methods. I guess from another post, I'm the elephant. : )

Everyone knows that I didn't invent the cigar replica pen. Other people and companies have done designs way before my time. I noticed one in this last edition of Pen World magazine. I ran into Barry Gross a couple years ago at the LA Pen Show and saw that he was making cigar replica pens. I didn't know that. He said he had been making them for a while. He makes his a LOT different than I make mine.

I guess I'll give my 2 cents here. There's a legal angle and a fellow woodworker "respect" angle. 
On the legal side all I have found out is that it's difficult to take a process (and quite expensive) of making a pen and get it somehow protected. The only way to protect it if one wants it protected is to keep the cards close to the chest. I have kept my cards pretty close. (although a thorough search will bring some perspective)
My reasons are not due to a stingy spirit or power or elitism or really anything like that at all for me. If anyone has ever met me in person or talked to me on the phone they could hopefully figure that out pretty quick. For me, I realized that I had spent a lot of time and money to come up with a product that I would be proud to sell to a niche market. And smart business says that if you want to take it serious enough to make it into a business you don't write a tutorial and post it online! Duh

However, what you are wanting to do is perfectly in your right to do. I have never shared specific techniques and have no idea if your method is anything like my method or like others who have been doing cigar replica pens. 

Now, if someone bought one of my pens, dissected it and posted a tutorial on how they think it was accomplished, that would hurt my feelings and go against the spirit of what most of us are made of. I don't see you wanting to do that here. 

I am working with a Lawyer right now to trademark the name Cigar Illusion and soon will be able to put the little TM after the name.. That is moderately costly, but something that I came up with that can be legally mine.

While not an "original" idea in general, it was original for me. I had never seen one before. I had no photo or design that got me going. I thought of doing a cigar replica pen after purchasing some cuban mahogany and the end of the blanks had sapwood and a thin black layer between the sapwood that made the blank look like a square cigar with burnt ash. Thus began the process of coming up with "my version."  My version was influenced by a comment on the forum early on when someone suggested that I make the ash end the cap end. ( It was reversed and I was adding a clip at that time)  I have been through several versions using different kit parts/pieces, modifying parts, ruining parts etc...  and all that work equals a unique item that I sell so that I can hopefully break even or make a few bucks in this hobby/business that tends to be a money drain.  Of course It would be a bummer if someone posted a tutorial and it ended up becoming something that everyone started doing.... but I don't think that is really going to happen.  Try making the same thing over and over again and you will find out that no matter how unique it is it begins to get old. We usually move on to something new. 

I'm going to ride this train as long as I can and make the most of it. The Cigar Illusion is my journey in craftsmanship, I came up with it, developed it and I'm still refining it. Even if it gets copied or massed produced in China (and yes that would hurt) I will still hold on to the unique craftsmanship that I am proud of which took many hours of pure delight in creating something in the shop. That can't be taken away by a tutorial or copycats. My business certainly could be affected, but my pride in my own work will remain.

Take pride in your own work. If you want to share it, share it. If it's a "secret recipe" and you want to spoil it, (It seems clear that is not the intent) then that's the kind of person you are and you'll likely get the drama you seek. There is no shortage of drama seekers on this sight. Im a drama king  sometimes on here and I have to step back and cool my jets for a while. Just mention the "Best of IAP" to me and I have to go clamp my lips shut.

I had a professional woodturner tell me that he thought the forums were made up of "bottom dwellers." I don't think the IAP is a bunch of "bottom dwellers" but there are definitely some on here who are. Welcome to online forums. The very fact that someone would post and ask if toes would be stepped on proves that there are quality poeple here in the IAP.

Thanks for the opportunity to share my view.  Now get out there and be creative!  Think a new thought.


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## ugrad

I would love to see a tuturial on the cigar pen just as much as any other pen, I would really like to make one, but I just can't see myself making them on a regular basis.

They are great looking pens and I was surprised at the prices on your website, I honestly thought they would be $100ish more, than the prices displayed.

Regards
Peter


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## ironman123

Martin, thank you for your comments on this topic.

Ray


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## beck3906

plantmanSounds to me like everyone else does all the hard work for you and you just turn it round and make the profit. Where are you progressing on that path??? 
 
I don't even know what your turnings look like since you have ZERO in the photo section. [/quote said:
			
		

> Jim S.
> 
> I looked at your photo album and see some really cool things. Since I don't have a lot of time to innovate due to my full-time job, I'm always looking for folks with blanks for sale.
> 
> Do you want to sell any of your ideas? I believe I could make a few bucks off your ideas.


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## Haynie

This horse seems to have been ground up and sold to Ikea.


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## beck3906

I'm being very serious.  I would consider buying some of his blanks if the price is right.  I was hoping he would read this and respond


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## beck3906

Who knows, he had a few that could go to some of our vendors


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## Waluy

MartinPens said:


> Bill,
> I haven't shared my methods, so no one is posting my exact methods. I guess from another post, I'm the elephant. : )




Martin,
Not to hijack the thread at all but I just saw your cigar replicas for the first time (I am still really new to turning and the IAP forum) and I have to say they look amazing.

As to the original question: As far as tutorials go I am on several other sites dealing with the other types I make (chainmaille jewelry for one) and any time a tutorial is posted someone will think it hurts their business. The real issue as I see it isn't the tutorial but the "bottom dwellers" who will actively look for things to copy and sell cheaper. I personally am a firm believer if by some chance I like something enough to copy and sell (highly unlikely as it doesn't have my "touch") then it will always be sold at the same cost or higher with notes telling people the original idea was <insert name here>'s. I have actually driven business to a person who's tutorial I used to make a piece for myself. When people asked how much it would be for me to make one I pointed them in the original's direction.


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## jttheclockman

Waluy said:


> MartinPens said:
> 
> 
> 
> Bill,
> I haven't shared my methods, so no one is posting my exact methods. I guess from another post, I'm the elephant. : )
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Martin,
> Not to hijack the thread at all but I just saw your cigar replicas for the first time (I am still really new to turning and the IAP forum) and I have to say they look amazing.
> 
> As to the original question: As far as tutorials go I am on several other sites dealing with the other types I make (chainmaille jewelry for one) and any time a tutorial is posted someone will think it hurts their business. The real issue as I see it isn't the tutorial but the "bottom dwellers" who will actively look for things to copy and sell cheaper. I personally am a firm believer if by some chance I like something enough to copy and sell (highly unlikely as it doesn't have my "touch") then it will always be sold at the same cost or higher with notes telling people the original idea was <insert name here>'s. I have actually driven business to a person who's tutorial I used to make a piece for myself. When people asked how much it would be for me to make one I pointed them in the original's direction.
Click to expand...

 

Why don't you make a chainmaille pen???  You c ould either wrap a tube and cast or wrap a blank. Would look pretty sharp!!!!! 


Then write a tutorial on how it was done. not that anyone would try. I bet it is not an easy artform.


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## walshjp17

Hopefully the funeral for this poor horse will be scheduled soon.:wink::biggrin:


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## Haynie

Meatballs man.  Just making some super tenrized meatballs, hamburgers, and other other fine eats.  Though the chainmaille pen sounds cool.


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## NewLondon88

walshjp17 said:


> Hopefully the funeral for this poor horse will be scheduled soon.:wink::biggrin:



soon.


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## alphageek

It's my personal favorite on any forum when people keep bumping a thread to post about dead horses.   There's multiple levels of irony there.


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## ironman123

OH NO!!!  Now there is going to be another topic because of that picture.  Cruelty to dead animals.:biggrin:

Ray


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## rej19

Well, I have just read some of this post. I didn't take time to read all 11 pages so if I am repeating something sorry. Cigar looking pens are not my cup of tea but I would love to see the technique. I used to dabble in close up magic and there is a Indiana magician who has been making wood fake cigars for a long time. I have seen his stuff up close and they they would pass for the real thing! Good grief they even look like they glow and have chew marks on them. Not sure how it does it but the point is that this type of thing is not new. But applying it to a pen probably is newer. Here is a link if you want to see some.

John Rogers Wooden Cigars

Bill make sure you bring one to the meeting next week. I would love to see it.


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## healeydays

Some folks here are very willing to help a new person learn and I thank them for the responses I have received, then there are the others.  I asked a member a simple question about a tool they use in a process that they do here, and I basically got a non-answer from this person.  

Come on guys, I'm not asking for your secret sauce, I'm asking what type of spatula you use to turn the hamburger on the grille.  I understand that some folks try to make a living here, I'm trying to learn things to make the hobby more fun and impress friends and family.

Ok, now climbing off my soapbox...


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## NewLondon88

alphageek said:


> It's my personal favorite on any forum when people keep bumping a thread to post about dead horses.   There's multiple levels of irony there.



why, whatever do you mean?


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## Waluy

jttheclockman said:


> Why don't you make a chainmaille pen???  You c ould either wrap a tube and cast or wrap a blank. Would look pretty sharp!!!!!
> 
> 
> Then write a tutorial on how it was done. not that anyone would try. I bet it is not an easy artform.



I actually have had that idea but figured I would wait until I get a few more standard style pens under my belt (I have only turned a handful of things right now, because I moved and haven't been able to put my shop back together yet.)


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## jttheclockman

Waluy said:


> jttheclockman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why don't you make a chainmaille pen??? You c ould either wrap a tube and cast or wrap a blank. Would look pretty sharp!!!!!
> 
> 
> Then write a tutorial on how it was done. not that anyone would try. I bet it is not an easy artform.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I actually have had that idea but figured I would wait until I get a few more standard style pens under my belt (I have only turned a handful of things right now, because I moved and haven't been able to put my shop back together yet.)
Click to expand...

 


You have to do it man. That would really look sharp. I look forward to it.


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## Wood Butcher

The cigar tutorial has been completed and sent to wracinowski for publishing in the library if, after reviewing it,  he feels is should be you'll find it there.  I haven't replied to the PM requests because it can be read in its entirety in the library rather than me sending it out 1,000,000,000,000,000 times.  I really appreciate all of the interest, comments and suggestions in this post and please believe me, I didn't intend or expect this to get out of hand as it has.  I've stated the reason for the original post and completed the tutorial to the best of my ability.  Enjoy it when it shows up and please comment on the effort and it's application.
WB


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## plantman

Good choice !! Looking forward to your method. After your tutorial appears, I will post photos of my second method of making this pen. Jim  S


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## Wayne

WB has created a great tutorial. Look for it soon in the library.


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## ugrad

Yes Bill has done himself proud:RockOn:and perhaps the dead horse brigade will stop flogging it now:biggrin:


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## Bobostro61

Being a cigar smoker on occasion and a novice pen turner, I would LOVE to see a tutorial on how to make one of those.  I've seen photos of them on the forum here and there and think "how in the heck did he do that?".  I want to try and make one for myself and a couple friends that are also cigar smokers but just don't know where to begin. 

Guess I should have read more of the other 11 pages.  Found the tutorial.  Very cool and thank you!


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## pjsmith

*Is it up and I'm just missing it?*



wracinowski said:


> WB has created a great tutorial. Look for it soon in the library.



Is the file in the library and I'm just missing It?


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## jeff

pjsmith said:


> wracinowski said:
> 
> 
> 
> WB has created a great tutorial. Look for it soon in the library.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is the file in the library and I'm just missing It?
Click to expand...


It's in the library and also shown on the right sidebar of the front page.

http://content.penturners.org/library/pens/realistic_cigar_pen.pdf


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## cwolfs69

*Go for it*

i completely agree with almost all of the posts on this thread that say go ahead with the tutorial. i have not read every reply word for word so if i repeat something forgive me. 
we all have skills and talents different from all of the rest. i could name many, many things that i have watched, understood, and quite frankly thought at the time "what is so special about this". however when it came to doing it that was a different thing entirely. and on the other side, i have seen things others do and after trying it myself, what was the big del, this is simple and even improved on it. 
so, unless you have received some private information from someone who is trusting you keep it a "trade secret" there is absolutely no reason you should not help the rest of us learn the trick. or at least give us the information to fail in some cases. 

as the others have stated, *GO FOR IT*


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## jyreene

Man, what a discussion. I will say a few things just because my wife and I have been dealing with copywrites, trademarks, and so on for her business but particularly because the members of this site have been invaluable for tips and tricks to help push my wood working abilities beyond what I was at. 

I have been on this site only since 2009. My dad got my wife and me into pen making and bowl making and that helped push me into more wood working. I have used the assistance of members here to create some great gifts that include pens, but also they helped me SAFELY and successfully make an all wooden rocking horse and a blanket chest. I could say I did this on my own but I turned to members here to help me understand how to make these safely and how to make them last (my 6'2" 220 lbs self can rock on the rocking horse thanks to you all).

My final, lengthy, thought on tutorials, I have read them to help me get ideas and have come back to them to help me figure out my own processes and techniques, especially since the Marine Corps and my growing family has taken a lot of time from my beloved hobby. Using those tutorials has jogged my memory on where I left off so I don't have to re-learn by wasting materials. Having to purchase new stuff because I had to re-learn would at some times push this from a hobby to a back shelf idea. I remember the herringbone 360 and all the calls for a tutorial. I remember the creator not wanting to post a tutorial and I agreed with that because it is something he should be proud of. I also remember saying that a tutorial would be awesome but they should only do it if they want and not because anyone made them feel obligated. I also have a few PMs from that person because I asked if they could send me a few pictures of the FINAL product from two different angles so I could see if I could figure it out on my own, or if I could buy one to do the same. That member obliged me and sent me to a few posts with those photos. I now see that there is a herringbone tutorial but I won't read it unless I get stuck or I think I might cause something dangerous (more so than a glued together bunch of pieces of wood spinning at a crazy amount of RPMs while trying to shave it down with tools, etc....) that would injure me.

Anyways, I see it has been posted and might read it if I am interested in making a cigar pen but until then I will say thanks for all the support over the years and turning this from an interest and a hobby, into an outlet and release that I thoroughly enjoy and de-stresses me and also allowing me to make some unique and one of a kind retirement and thank you gifts for my Marine brothers.

Semper Fidelis


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## DaveVW

this is a good question. My understanding is this becomes an issue if you are selling the process. That is, you are making money off someone's patented or copyrighted material. Tutorials on sites like this seldom have a fee attached to it. I think we are considered a voluntary association and as such are free to exchange common information among us. If you clearly use someone elses work in your tutorial I believe all you need to do is give attribution to the source. IE. state where you got it. I think you are free to do the tutorial. I would love to see it, since you taught me how to make pen's I continue the tradition of the "addiction". Bring it on!!


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