# How old is this church pew?



## Dan Masshardt (May 22, 2015)

Does anybody know about dating things like this based on construction Etc. 

This pew is from a church in Harrisburg PA. The church itself dates back to the 1850s but I have no idea when these pews are from.  

The fasteners used are all cut nails. 

Here are some pics.


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## wyone (May 22, 2015)

hmmm have to wonder if those are antique cut nails.. or nails made to look antique..   I will be watching this thread to learn myself how to age such things


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## thewishman (May 22, 2015)

Carbon date the gum underneath?


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## Dan Masshardt (May 22, 2015)

wyone said:


> hmmm have to wonder if those are antique cut nails.. or nails made to look antique..   I will be watching this thread to learn myself how to age such things



I don't think the nails are super old.  But the nails were all completely hidden - so it would make no sense to me to use old looking nails to make something look old when you can't see them.


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## Dan Masshardt (May 22, 2015)

thewishman said:


> Carbon date the gum underneath?



No gum!   I was surprised.


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## Tom T (May 22, 2015)

Hay Dan,
I have not bought pews in years.  But a lot of pew company's that sell pews have had to try and match pews that are existing.  They may have an idea. Keep us posted on what you find.  They have book racks on the back so that's a hint.  Not sure it's a good hint.  Of course you have look for the obvious carved name and date on the bottom, I am sure.


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## Dan Masshardt (May 22, 2015)

Tom T said:


> Hay Dan, I have not bought pews in years.  But a lot of pew company's that sell pews have had to try and match pews that are existing.  They may have an idea. Keep us posted on what you find.  They have book racks on the back so that's a hint.  Not sure it's a good hint.  Of course you have look for the obvious carved name and date on the bottom, I am sure.



I'm sure the racks were added later. They don't really match with the pews perfectly.  Color is different too. 

The pews from the church are all like this one.   

I know they were there in the 1950s and not new then.   Because I have a friend who grew up in the church and he ain't young.


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## Tom T (May 22, 2015)

Best of luck on the hunt.  When was the church built.  Any old photos.  Check the archives at the local news paper.  Back in the day a new church was a big thing.


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## Tom T (May 22, 2015)

Also if it was affiliated with a denomination at one time they may have the record in their archive.


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## Dan Masshardt (May 22, 2015)

What looked fake to me is those little shield things on the ends. They cover up the nails that secure the cross brace and seat. 

But the. I found this, so I don't know.  

http://jamesvanderlin.com/gallery/vantiques-gallery.php


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## Dan Masshardt (May 22, 2015)

Tom T said:


> Also if it was affiliated with a denomination at one time they may have the record in their archive.



This is a church in the denomination where I pastor.  It was built in the 1850s.   I'm asking around whoever might know.


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## Tom T (May 22, 2015)

There you go brother.  You are on to it now.  The shields looked real to me.  I was in England a number of years ago and a few other places and visited many churches.  They are very similer in style to what you had in your post.  Everything there had a shield of some type.  Mostly plan in nature, but in some of the churches they were more elaborate.  Some seemed to be coat of arms type shield.  Maybe it was the family pew or something.  You know all people sit in there spot each week and do not ask them to move.


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## jttheclockman (May 23, 2015)

They look like they were machined made so I am betting they are not that old. Maybe there is some documents or photos laying around somewhere. I guess it is possible to be as old as the church itself.


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## avbill (May 23, 2015)

your possible are looking at the 1850 original pew


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## oneleggimp (May 23, 2015)

I can't see the pew company using faux cut nails when they are hidden from view so I'd tend to think that those are the real deal and are truly antique.  However against that - the cushion seems to be unhostered to the pew rather than being a cushon which sits on the pew which was the older style - which the cut nails would've indicated.  Mixed signals.


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## The Penguin (May 23, 2015)

how does the end grain of the wood look? tight growth rings?

that would be an indication of old or new growth lumber used in manufacture.


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## papaturner (May 23, 2015)

First place I would check are the minutes of the business meetings. As Baptist we record everything.:biggrin:
Another thought we had our pews refinished and were told that they were completely taken apart to do the job. So the nails could have been replacements for those damaged in some sort of refinishing job. Just a thought.


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## Dan Masshardt (May 23, 2015)

oneleggimp said:


> I can't see the pew company using faux cut nails when they are hidden from view so I'd tend to think that those are the real deal and are truly antique.  However against that - the cushion seems to be unhostered to the pew rather than being a cushon which sits on the pew which was the older style - which the cut nails would've indicated.  Mixed signals.



In pretty much positive that the cushions were rather added later or replaced at the latest.  The staples holding down the fabric look recent.  

I know of many churches that added them later or updated. 

Here is a pen I just made and a cross that I'm going to get laser engraved.


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## randyrls (May 23, 2015)

Dan;  Old cut nails would have a square shank.  The photos of the nails make them appear to be rounded.


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## Dan Masshardt (May 23, 2015)

randyrls said:


> Dan;  Old cut nails would have a square shank.  The photos of the nails make them appear to be rounded.



I'll check them out closer when I get home.  They are clearly manufactured but my research indicates that that has been the case since the 1830s or something now.   

I'm trying to find out what year the church was refurbished and if the pews were replaced then. 

I believe that these were made company rather than an individual person but I don't know for sure.


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## maxwell_smart007 (May 23, 2015)

Dan Masshardt said:


> In pretty much positive that the cushions were rather added later or replaced at the latest.  The staples holding down the fabric look recent.



Cushions?  What luxury!  Our church doesn't like us to get too comfortable!  I don't think that cushions were very common in the old days...

If they're square nails, I'd say it's original.  I don't know of any other method for dating a church pew, so you may have to go with 'by guess and by golly" for determining the age.


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## ELA (May 23, 2015)

Dendrochronology could be used to tell how old the wood is and when It was cut.  As far as the nails are concerned, machine made, cut nails date back to 1795.


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## Displaced Canadian (May 23, 2015)

Is the back and seat plywood or plank? Might also give some idea as to age. As fow comfortable pews, wasn't there a guy in most churches with a rod with a feather on one end to wake up the ladies and a ball on the other to wake up the men?


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## Dan Masshardt (May 23, 2015)

Displaced Canadian said:


> Is the back and seat plywood or plank? Might also give some idea as to age. As fow comfortable pews, wasn't there a guy in most churches with a rod with a feather on one end to wake up the ladies and a ball on the other to wake up the men?



I thought it was a little tack for the men?  :-/

There is zero plywood or veneer on this pew. 

I think the back it's use and pine.   Which does this look like to you guys?


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## Brian G (May 23, 2015)

Rift sawn oak.


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## showcaser (May 23, 2015)

That's Ash Dan


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## Dan Masshardt (May 23, 2015)

There was a typo in my last post.  I said I'm thinking the back is oak (what the cross is made from) and the seat pine maybe.  But the seat needs to be planed before I can tell. 

ash is an interesting thought but I don't know.

Other votes?


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## Dan Masshardt (May 23, 2015)

Here's the piece the cross was cut from. 

And the seat from the pew with the padding removed.  Ignore the cross in too. That's a template I use.


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## maxwell_smart007 (May 23, 2015)

The grain looks like ash to me as well...


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## mtassie (May 23, 2015)

I've seen those pews in antique stores for 2-3 grand. Completely refurbished.


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## TellicoTurning (May 23, 2015)

I may be off base, but I suspect that if they were really old, the seats wouldn't be padded. 

My grandfather was deacon in a So. Baptist church in the early '40's and the pews still aren't padded.


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## Tom T (May 23, 2015)

For sure the padding came later.  So did the air conditioning.  Heating was pretty standard up north.  I am wondering now why you are taking the pew out?  I was working in a church the other day with a boom lift and shattered the end of the pew.  Good news for me one of church people is a good wood repairer.  And it was not me.


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## Dan Masshardt (May 23, 2015)

mtassie said:


> I've seen those pews in antique stores for 2-3 grand. Completely refurbished.



Really close looking design?  On the ends.


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## Tom T (May 23, 2015)

Dan, They could be original.  I have never seen a worn out pew.  Some times the ones in the back are more warn.


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## Dan Masshardt (May 23, 2015)

Tom T said:


> For sure the padding came later.  So did the air conditioning.  Heating was pretty standard up north.  I am wondering now why you are taking the pew out?  I was working in a church the other day with a boom lift and shattered the end of the pew.  Good news for me one of church people is a good wood repairer.  And it was not me.



All the pews are out.  This church is being converted into a theatre.   Like plays not movie theatre.    

You can't tell much by pads. I know for. Fact that many churches add padding to older pews.  Many pews a today still aren't padded and many more recent come padded.


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## Tom T (May 23, 2015)

Hopefully we are still having church somewhere.  Lord knows we need it.


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## Dan Masshardt (May 24, 2015)

I was just told by a older man who grew up there that the pews are original to the building.  

Tough to prove but he was pretty confident.


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## Smitty37 (May 24, 2015)

Dan Masshardt said:


> I was just told by a older man who grew up there that the pews are original to the building.
> 
> Tough to prove but he was pretty confident.


Dan, I would believe the old guy....1st) cut nails were machine cut as some one pointed out in the 1790/1795 time frame and continued to be used until around 1890 when the round shanks replaced them. 2nd) I have never seen a worn out church pew....pews when you think of it are treated pretty gently and seldom have I seen them showing signs of wear other than a few nicks and rubbed off finish. 3rd) The church I attend right now has pews that are well over 100 years old and show little  signs of wear and they have not been refinished in many years - we have members wo date back 75 or more years in our church. So pews remaining solid for a long time is not unusual. 4th) The church I grew up in still uses the original pews...I was baptised there in January of 1938.  The church has expanded and now seats more people but the original pews are still in use. 4th)  The Church where I was married is close to 100 years old and still has the original pews. 5th) I'm sure the pads were a later addition perhaps as late as 30 or so years ago. 6th) The book racks being an addition would not be unusual.  Until the last 50 or so years, attendees were expected to bring their own bible, and hymnals were often stacked at the entry.


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