# tbc or mandrel?



## hazmat74

As the proud owner of a new-to-me lathe, i am sort of stuck. All along i have been planning to begin on a mandrel, mostly because it would be easiest to start with on my taig. But now i have a rikon 70-100 and the idea of learning by tbc intrigues me. I know they both have pros and cons, but i need to determine which direction to go in regard to what i purchase. I dont want to waste time and money where i dont have to.


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## Dan Masshardt

You already have a mandrel?

You already have or need a 60 live center either way. 

I think I'd go with some lazerlinez bushings that are setup for either mandrel or tbc. 

Actually what you should do is throw your little rikon in the trunk and bring it over to my house where you can try out both methods and see what you like.


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## hazmat74

I have only the mandrel, no taper. On the taig, i was going to mount it in a collet. Now i have to rethink how to proceed. Once i get the rikon cleaned up, i may just do as you suggest. Going to baltimore this week but possibly the following?


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## Nikitas

I use both..just because I haven't made TBC for all my kits... I prefer tbc bit just have not made the move completely ...


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## hazmat74

I am leaning toward tbc. So many things to pick up with the different lathe. It is a serious change of direction after planning on rigging up the taig.

Extra question: where is a good place to pick up 2 mt centers? I am going to need live, dead and drill chuck.


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## its_virgil

mandrel and one blank at a time. Shortening the mandrel makes it run true which is the essence of turning between centers with or without bushings. (as long as the bushings used with the mandrel are spot on true running.) 
Do a good turn daily!
Don


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## raar25

Mandrel all the way.  I turn 3 pen body pieces at a time and as long as my lathe is running true they all come out just fine.


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## sbwertz

I turn all my sierras between centers, but still have to use a mandrel for the delrin finishing bushings.  So I have one lathe set up with the dead center in the headstock and the other with the mandrel.  Works for me.  

All 7mm pens are turned on the mandrel (one of David's Better Mandrel Saver mandrels).  I only have mandrel bushings for Jr gent and cigars.  I'm just learning to turn them and will probably buy tbc bushings for them as well.


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## Dan Masshardt

As you can probably tell, you've only just begun spending money.  Be prepared to lay out another couple hundred pretty quick between tooling, bushings, finishing stuff, kits...   :-/


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## turncrazy43

Turning between TBC is my preferred method. Lazerlines is a good source for steel bushings for your TBC. A bit more expensive but they last a long time. TBC is also the way to go to apply CA finish, but without the bushings so there is no CA on the bushings to worry about.
____________________________
Everyday I'm vertical is a great day


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## Jim Burr

No reason for a mandrel...as hundreds of threads and post will attest...friends don't let friends use mandrels!! Go see John Goodin...Johnny CNC


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## Dan Masshardt

We should just let two people write a point / counterpoint article on this subject.  I've not even been around that long and it seems like we have this conversation constantly.  

At the end of the day - either method works just fine.


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## ed4copies

I prefer a mandrel --short, as that "Virgil" guy said.

But I like Dan's sentiment---do what YOU want, just don't tell ME to do it YOUR way and I won't tell YOU to do it MY way!!


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## sbwertz

How do you turn 7mm without a mandrel.  The bushings don't fit inside the tubes like they do on larger pens.

Sharon


Jim Burr said:


> No reason for a mandrel...as hundreds of threads and post will attest...friends don't let friends use mandrels!! Go see John Goodin...Johnny CNC


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## Leatherman1998

Johnny CNC has bushings for 7mm projects

Sent from my Rooted Galaxy Player.


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## its_virgil

Either method does work just fine. I see no reason to switch to turning between centers if turning with a mandrel is working. I have turned both ways and both ways work well...at least for me. I have no reason to pay the price for the bushings when turning between centers offers no real improvement for me.I often turn between centers with no bushings at all.  I finish my pens with CA and have no problem with gluing bushings to the mandrel or gluing bushings to the ends of the pen barrels. I have no need for special delrin bushings to use when applying CA to my pens. We do have members who take every opportunity to push turning between centers at every opportunity. Nothing wrong with turning between centers or championing the method but it is not the only way to turn a pen. And, it may not be for everyone. If using a mandrel ever fails for me I will probably become a between center penturner. But I don't foresee my trusty mandrel letting me down.:biggrin::biggrin:
Do a good turn daily!
Don


Dan Masshardt said:


> We should just let two people write a point / counterpoint article on this subject.  I've not even been around that long and it seems like we have this conversation constantly.
> 
> At the end of the day - either method works just fine.


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## edstreet

Boxers or briefs?

Ford or Chevy?

Truth be known and not many have said this but here it is.  A poor quality POS mandrel will cause you more grief than anything else.  There are some high quality good mandrels that are worth their weight.  TBC is the setup that I use and recommend to everyone but if you do go mandrel be sure to get a superb quality mandrel with an excellent setup.


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## edstreet

sbwertz said:


> How do you turn 7mm without a mandrel.  The bushings don't fit inside the tubes like they do on larger pens.
> 
> Sharon




Like this


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## Rick P

Depends on the pen.......choosing to only do one or the other is just limiting yourself.


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## sbwertz

AHA!  I obviously need to go look at Johnny's website.  Last time I was in there he didn't have 7mm bushings.  Thanks for the heads up.

Sharon


edstreet said:


> sbwertz said:
> 
> 
> 
> How do you turn 7mm without a mandrel.  The bushings don't fit inside the tubes like they do on larger pens.
> 
> Sharon
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Like this
Click to expand...


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## hazmat74

Mostly i am trying to get costs under control. I know how this goes when getting set up and the less i confuse things for myself the better, so i am trying to pick one method and roll with it. I have a lot to learn about turning so in the meantime i can play until i decide which direction to go.


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## hazmat74

Where does one find David's better mandrel saver? I believe i am going the mandrel route to start.




sbwertz said:


> I turn all my sierras between centers, but still have to use a mandrel for the delrin finishing bushings.  So I have one lathe set up with the dead center in the headstock and the other with the mandrel.  Works for me.
> 
> All 7mm pens are turned on the mandrel (one of David's Better Mandrel Saver mandrels).  I only have mandrel bushings for Jr gent and cigars.  I'm just learning to turn them and will probably buy tbc bushings for them as well.


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## BSea

When I started out, I read through the library to learn as much as I could before I bought a bunch of tooling I'd never use.  I originallay thought that TBC was a more advanced technique.  But it's just different than turning with a mandrel.  I've been turning now for almost 3 years, and never made a pen using a mandrel.  In fact I don't own one.  I've done many pens without using bushings, but I also own several sets from JohnnyCNC.  

As others have pointed out, there is no right or wrong way.  Just do which ever you feel is best for you.

Here's my list of pros & Cons.  I'm sure that the list isn't complete.

Pro's:
Less chance for out of round blanks.
No Ca sticking to bushings.  (I don't use bushings when I do finishing)
No mandrel to bend.
If you want to try a new kit, you don't have to buy the bushings.  I only buy bushings for kits I plan to make on a regular basis.

Cons:
Only 1 barrel at a time.
Bushings cost more (but should last longer).


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## edstreet

Ok here is another issue.

I have taken the liberty to do some good compares and the results speak for themselves.  As previous mentioned items like 'cost' can also be explained in the below photo's.

Here we have TBC and mandrel bushings for the Gent Jr/Statesman Jr/Venus and related pens.  








This is for the 7mm slimline, euro and related.  I included a single 7mm slimline bushing and not the entire euro bushing set.  The object in the bottom center is a euro mandrel, it is used to turn the end cap on a euro with a post stud.  The TBC bushing set is the '7mm triple play' set by JohnnyCNC.  The rings in the center are sizing washers also from JohnnyCNC.






As you can see the advantages of TBC is LENGTH inside the tube yields a longer, more stable and more accurate precision.  Also the section outside is greater as well, this yields not only space between the dead/live center and provides extra tool rest support but also comes in very handy when hand sanding.

I have noted several times with a mandrel setup there is some wobble of the bushings because of the short length.  If the mandrel shaft is not proper size there will be warping of the blanks. 

Ed


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## walshjp17

sbwertz said:


> AHA!  I obviously need to go look at Johnny's website.  Last time I was in there he didn't have 7mm bushings.  Thanks for the heads up.



Sharon,

Check out Lazerlinez.  They carry 7MM TBC bushings as well.


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## edstreet

walshjp17 said:


> sbwertz said:
> 
> 
> 
> AHA!  I obviously need to go look at Johnny's website.  Last time I was in there he didn't have 7mm bushings.  Thanks for the heads up.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sharon,
> 
> Check out Lazerlinez.  They carry 7MM TBC bushings as well.
Click to expand...


Link?  I don't see it on their website.


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## Dan Masshardt

walshjp17 said:


> Sharon,
> 
> Check out Lazerlinez.  They carry 7MM TBC bushings as well.



You may be mistaken here.


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## panamag8or

BSea said:


> When I started out, I read through the library to learn as much as I could before I bought a bunch of tooling I'd never use.  I originallay thought that TBC was a more advanced technique.  But it's just different than turning with a mandrel.  I've been turning now for almost 3 years, and never made a pen using a mandrel.  In fact I don't own one.  I've done many pens without using bushings, but I also own several sets from JohnnyCNC.
> 
> As others have pointed out, there is no right or wrong way.  Just do which ever you feel is best for you.
> 
> Here's my list of pros & Cons.  I'm sure that the list isn't complete.
> 
> Pro's:
> Less chance for out of round blanks.
> No Ca sticking to bushings.  (I don't use bushings when I do finishing)
> No mandrel to bend.
> If you want to try a new kit, you don't have to buy the bushings.  I only buy bushings for kits I plan to make on a regular basis.
> 
> Cons:
> Only 1 barrel at a time.
> Bushings cost more (but should last longer).



I turned a new kit yesterday TBC without bushings (the first time I've tried that), and I was having a hard time getting the ends right with a round carbide tool. There's not enough room to properly turn the ends to size without nicking the centers.


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## ed4copies

Quoting Ed (Street):
As you can see the advantages of TBC is LENGTH inside the tube yields a longer, more stable and more accurate precision.

While this is true, the mandrel becomes an extension of the inexpensive bushings, giving you complete continuity from one end of the blank to the other.  

IF your bushings are a snug fit to both the mandrel and the inside diameter of the brass tube, there is complete support throughout the spinning pen blank.

This conversation usually assumes crappy mandrel bushings and precision "Between centers" bushings.  With this assumption, of course precision will win.

BUT, it is a flawed premise.


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## JasonM

I prefer TBC.  But there are some kits where I'm still more comfortable on a mandrel.  Plus I still use my mandrel for polishing.


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## Jim Burr

sbwertz said:


> How do you turn 7mm without a mandrel.  The bushings don't fit inside the tubes like they do on larger pens.
> 
> Sharon
> 
> 
> Jim Burr said:
> 
> 
> 
> No reason for a mandrel...as hundreds of threads and post will attest...friends don't let friends use mandrels!! Go see John Goodin...Johnny CNC
Click to expand...


Sure they do Sharon...John has them. That's all I use for slims...or any other pen for that matter.


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## hazmat74

I ordered a mandrel saver package from psi. That was the only executive buying decision i am making today. If i had my druthers(and a fatter bank account!) I would rig up for both and go hog wild. I mostly just want to get started. I have several things i will have to get over the next few weeks but need to go slowly lest my landlord be unhappy when i explain that rent went into toys. As for gluing things together, i have a taig that i can easily make delrin bushings on. Love that stuff and have used it quite a bit.

Also, pardon the lack of caps where normally required. Am on my phone and it is easier.

Eta: also, thanks for all the insight. Very much appreciated.


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## edstreet

The mandrel setup that I started with was a junk design.  The shaft was to prone to bending and I did bend it.

Since then I have bought around 3-4 mandrels and this one below is probably one of the better mandrels I have owned.






This is the last mandrel that I bought and I was doing one tube at a time with it.  Now it was more precise and better fit than the other setups I used as this one is adjustable.





Same setup on the tail side of things.











ed4copies said:


> Quoting Ed (Street):
> As you can see the advantages of TBC is LENGTH inside the tube yields a longer, more stable and more accurate precision.
> 
> While this is true, the mandrel becomes an extension of the inexpensive bushings, giving you complete continuity from one end of the blank to the other.
> 
> IF your bushings are a snug fit to both the mandrel and the inside diameter of the brass tube, there is complete support throughout the spinning pen blank.
> 
> This conversation usually assumes crappy mandrel bushings and precision "Between centers" bushings.  With this assumption, of course precision will win.
> 
> BUT, it is a flawed premise.




Flawed indeed.  Yes the shaft becomes part of the bushing and a good mandrel is a good thing.  However you are still grossly limited to the bushing to mandrel contact area.  I have yet to see anyone making precision mandrel bushings, is there anyone?

In the above setup a great bit of the adjustment weight is placed on the locking nut and not the shaft.  Which makes the shaft less prone to warping.  Also the shorter length further reduces warping.




			
				panamag8or said:
			
		

> I turned a new kit yesterday TBC without bushings (the first time I've  tried that), and I was having a hard time getting the ends right with a  round carbide tool. There's not enough room to properly turn the ends to  size without nicking the centers.



Hate to say it but wider is better.  This is where your 1" wide chisels comes into play, flat nose scraper, skew chisel of some flavor or what not.


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## dbledsoe

I, too, bought the adjustable mandrel when I was getting started. I think I did my first pen- a Slimline - on it and decided it was just too much trouble to rig up all the pieces each time. I switched to TBC with bushings when I have them and without bushings when I dont have them. It works either way. A 60 degree dead center is cheaper than a mandrel setup, and turning is no different. I still turn too much or not enough.


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## panamag8or

edstreet said:


> I have yet to see anyone making precision mandrel bushings, is there anyone?



The lazerlinez TBC bushings can go on a mandrel, also.


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## BSea

edstreet said:


> I have yet to see anyone making precision mandrel bushings, is there anyone?


I think the bushings from lazerlines can be used with or without a mandrel.  They are drilled through for a 7mm mandrel (I think).  At least the bushings I have for my marksman eagle are drilled through, and I think when they 1st came out, they advertised that they could be used either way.  I'm not sure though since I only TBC, and never gave it much thought for using them with a mandrel.


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## Dale Allen

My first mandrel, and only one, was an inexpensive one with the mandrel saver.  I eventually discovered that the rod in the headstock MT2 was off center, by a lot.
I would image that the better ones from Berea would not be that way.
My setup has a persistent .002" runout that I compensate for as much as possible.  So, when I check the wall thickness of a blank turned between centers, it will never be spot on but when I am 2-3 thousands different, then I know the TBC bushings that I made are as good as I can make them.  I spend a lot of time checking things to be sure they are running true and centered.
With TBC, I worry less about catches.  You do need to keep better track of which ends of the blanks go together for grain match and it does take a bit more time.


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## airborne_r6

ed4copies said:


> ...BUT, it is a flawed premise.



The only flawed premise is assuming anything other than TBC or that voicing an opinion that runs contrary to the mainstream is acceptable on this site.


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## alphageek

airborne_r6 said:


> ed4copies said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...BUT, it is a flawed premise.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The only flawed premise is assuming anything other than TBC or that voicing an opinion that runs contrary to the mainstream is acceptable on this site.
Click to expand...


The interesting thing here is that TBC or not has its own culture of "mainstream".   There is alot of camps of TBC, and like any thing some people swear their way is the only way...  TBC is alot like glueing your tubes, there is some people that will try to convince you their way is the ONLY way because its the BEST.

There is only 1 best.... its that one that works for you!


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## alphageek

Ok...  A couple of quick pictures of my setup.   This may not be the cheapest setup - but I'm really happy with it because of the options it gives me, its rock solid, and easily adjustable.

In the first picture, you can see the mandrel in a collet (not in the holder at the moment, a couple of 7mm bushings (probably pretty worn because they just space things for me - I use calipers for dimensions), and a mandrel saver which makes shorting the thing as easy as moving the tail stock.

In the other picture you can see the collet chuck, which at the moment is holding a "punch" from the HF set that I use for doing some closed end seam rippers on.   

I will swap back to the other collet when it comes to pen time.


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## hazmat74

When I was planning on starting on my Taig, I was going to use a collet setup like yours. ordered a 1/4" collet and locking nut for it, but I would have to use a live center. I was hoping on being able to shorten up as needed by passing through the headstock spindle, but that turned out to not be an option. The mandrel won't pass all the way through the collet to even get to that point.

Either way, didn't mean to bring up a battle of the methods, was asking in earnest and probably should have reconsidered. As with pipemakers, ask 100 pen makers how to do something, get 120 answers in return.

I'll start with the mandrel setup I purchased and adjust as necessary. It may work out perfectly for me or turn into a headache. In any event, I have so much to learn, that is where I'll be directing my focus. Doesn't matter which way I'm turning anything if I'm not capable of doing it properly and consistently.



alphageek said:


> Ok...  A couple of quick pictures of my setup.   This may not be the cheapest setup - but I'm really happy with it because of the options it gives me, its rock solid, and easily adjustable.
> 
> In the first picture, you can see the mandrel in a collet (not in the holder at the moment, a couple of 7mm bushings (probably pretty worn because they just space things for me - I use calipers for dimensions), and a mandrel saver which makes shorting the thing as easy as moving the tail stock.
> 
> In the other picture you can see the collet chuck, which at the moment is holding a "punch" from the HF set that I use for doing some closed end seam rippers on.
> 
> I will swap back to the other collet when it comes to pen time.


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## alphageek

hazmat74 said:


> When I was planning on starting on my Taig, I was going to use a collet setup like yours. ordered a 1/4" collet and locking nut for it, but I would have to use a live center. I was hoping on being able to shorten up as needed by passing through the headstock spindle, but that turned out to not be an option. The mandrel won't pass all the way through the collet to even get to that point.
> 
> Either way, didn't mean to bring up a battle of the methods, was asking in earnest and probably should have reconsidered. As with pipemakers, ask 100 pen makers how to do something, get 120 answers in return.
> 
> I'll start with the mandrel setup I purchased and adjust as necessary. It may work out perfectly for me or turn into a headache. In any event, I have so much to learn, that is where I'll be directing my focus. Doesn't matter which way I'm turning anything if I'm not capable of doing it properly and consistently.



Would a mt2 in the tailstock of your taig allow the mandrel to pass through?   I have really gotten to like the mandrel saver as it works really well for adjusting length to only whats needed.   I also think it would deal with peoples "bent mandrel" issues as the pressure from the tail stock isn't on the end of the mandrel, its on the bushings.  

Again - no battle for me, just hoping to share what works best for me.   (And never worry about asking questions.   Its not your fault that a topic that seems to be a sticking point for some is brought up. )


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## hazmat74

alphageek said:


> Would a mt2 in the tailstock of your taig allow the mandrel to pass through?   I have really gotten to like the mandrel saver as it works really well for adjusting length to only whats needed.   I also think it would deal with peoples "bent mandrel" issues as the pressure from the tail stock isn't on the end of the mandrel, its on the bushings.
> 
> Again - no battle for me, just hoping to share what works best for me.   (And never worry about asking questions.   Its not your fault that a topic that seems to be a sticking point for some is brought up. )



Taigs don't accept MTs of any size so far as I've been able to tell. I emailed the company to ask about a MT1(Taigs are little lathes) and didn't even get a "can't hurt to try" suggestion. It would pass it if I could use one. It's fine, though. I picked up a midi wood lathe last week that I will be turning pens on. The Taig I may use for drilling as I know it's dead on. I've drilled a bunch of pipe stems on it and have never had one miss so far as I can remember. It's pretty quick and easy to set up for drilling on, particularly when I can drill straight through. Pipe stems you have to drill with a tapered bit on one end about 2/3 of the way, then flip it and drill through with wee tiny bit on the draw end.


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## walshjp17

Dan Masshardt said:


> walshjp17 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sharon,
> 
> Check out Lazerlinez.  They carry 7MM TBC bushings as well.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You may be mistaken here.
Click to expand...


My bad.  I knew I bought some but thought it was Lazerlinez.  It was actually ChefWare http://www.chefwarekits.com/pen-tur...between-centers-bushing-steel-made-in-the-usa  but it looks like they are out of stock now.  


Apologies for the confusion.


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## Dan Masshardt

walshjp17 said:


> My bad.  I knew I bought some but thought it was Lazerlinez.  It was actually ChefWare http://www.chefwarekits.com/pen-turning-kits-supplies/pen-turning-between-centers-bushing-steel-made-in-the-usa  but it looks like they are out of stock now.
> 
> Apologies for the confusion.



One more place to check out for bushings though!


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## dogcatcher

hazmat74 said:


> When I was planning on starting on my Taig, I was going to use a collet setup like yours. ordered a 1/4" collet and locking nut for it, but I would have to use a live center. I was hoping on being able to shorten up as needed by passing through the headstock spindle, but that turned out to not be an option. The mandrel won't pass all the way through the collet to even get to that point.



With a Taig you can make your own TBC bushings.  I made my first using aluminum rod, chucked it up in the 4 jaw and turned the end down one end to 1/4 so it would fit in the Taig collet chuck.  Then turned that end to size.  For the Tailstock end I made the bushing to fit the live center by first drilling the end with a 60 degree center drill.  Then cut the bushing to size.  

I drive the headstock end with the 1/4" stub in the collet chuck, either the Taig, the Sherline or the wood lathe.  

As the aluminum bushings wore out, I made replacements out of 1018 steel, not the best steel for the job, but cheap enough that I used it.


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## edstreet

*Allow me to kick the white elephant in the room.*

I took the liberty of doing some measurements.

Here we are going to compare the slop factor (the amount of 'run-out' or 'out of tolerance' or 'out of round') between factory mandrel bushings and TBC bushings.  Sadly I do not have other style bushings and I would love if someone does have other styles to post the tube ID and bushing diam.  Just to compare.

I took a Gent Jr tube set, and the sets I posted earlier: factory mandrel bushings and TBC bushings.  Here are the results ...

The term 'shaft' is the hole cut in the bushings to fit over the mandrel.

the term 'ID' is the 'inside the tube lip' on the bushings, it holds and stabilizes the tube to not slip and cause run-out.

Factors that would be consistent between the two forms is not considered, i.e. lathe 'run-out'.

Other factors that may influence but was not looked at is the precision of the mandrel head affecting the run-out of the mandrel shaft.




> :Mandrel:
> 
> mandrel shaft:	0.2455
> bushings shaft:	0.2515
> diff: 0.006" or 0.16mm





> :Factory bushings:
> 
> lower tube ID:	0.3835
> bushings ID:	0.3785
> diff: 0.005" or 0.13mm
> 
> Upper tube ID:	0.4675
> bushings ID:	0.4595
> diff: 0.008" or 0.21mm
> 
> Min slop (shaft + bushing) = 0.011" = 0.28mm
> Max slop (shaft + bushing) = 0.014" = 0.36mm



Now for TBC


> :TBC:
> 
> Upper tube ID:	0.4675"
> Bushings ID:	0.463"
> diff: 0.0045" or 0.12mm
> 
> lower tube ID:	0.3835"
> Bushings ID:	0.379"
> diff: 0.0045" or 0.12mm
> 
> slop = 0.0045" = 0.12mm




Lets compare


> Slop difference in TBC to mandrel
> Min slop = 0.011" - 0.0045" = 0.0065" = 0.16mm
> Max slop = 0.014" - 0.0045" = 0.0095" = 0.25mm



So the difference is 0.0065" to 0.0095", that's HUGE. While the 0.00 may seem small when you look at the drill bit chart you see this is 2 steps smaller than a #80 drill bit.

Consider this next time you put a pen together and feel a 'high' spot on one section of one end.


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## alphageek

edstreet said:


> I took the liberty of doing some measurements.
> .
> .
> .
> 
> Consider this next time you put a pen together and feel a 'high' spot on one section of one end.



And this is exactly what Ed (4copies) said about 20 posts ago.   There is arguments for each side.   However, if you are comparing mass produced to precision - precision will always win.  

I prefer mandrel, but if there is kits you do ALOT I too would recommend a set of precision made bushings (IMO the best precision bushings are setup for either mandrel or TBC - but thats just so the options there for either way).  

I have tweaked my setup (as I showed earlier) to have the mandrel as precise as I can... One advantage to that is that I can try out a kit with factory bushings before upgrading (not all kits make the grade and become common for me).


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## edstreet

Several things of note.  First where is the no-bushing crowd at on this one?  They seem to be absent or probably silent as no one has weighed in on this topic yet.

Second ....



alphageek said:


> edstreet said:
> 
> 
> 
> I took the liberty of doing some measurements.
> .
> .
> .
> 
> Consider this next time you put a pen together and feel a 'high' spot on one section of one end.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And this is exactly what Ed (4copies) said about 20 posts ago.   There is arguments for each side.   However, if you are comparing mass produced to precision - precision will always win.
> 
> I prefer mandrel, but if there is kits you do ALOT I too would recommend a set of precision made bushings (IMO the best precision bushings are setup for either mandrel or TBC - but thats just so the options there for either way).
> 
> I have tweaked my setup (as I showed earlier) to have the mandrel as precise as I can... One advantage to that is that I can try out a kit with factory bushings before upgrading (not all kits make the grade and become common for me).
Click to expand...


I am not sure where to start on this one.  We have epic logic failure.  We have failure to understand what my post was about and likely did not see what I was asking.  Allow me to clarify things.


			
				edstreet said:
			
		

> Sadly I do not have other style bushings and I would love if someone does have other styles to post the tube ID and bushing diam. Just to compare.


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## Ogg

Wow this has been a good read so far. I've been away for awhile dealing with health issues and so am trying to catch up on things and saw this thread.

Some years back I noticed that the mandrels where 0.2475" like Ed has stated. I was also aware of the bushings having an ID of about 0.251"....which left a lot of slop to deal with. 

I had also used the MT #2 pen collet available at most shops, but felt that it too was not as true as it should be. 

What I ended up doing was tossing the MT #2 collet, the stock mandrel and stopped using a pointed live center...Basically tossed everything but the bushings 

Currently I am using a Beall collet chuck that screws onto the lathe's spindle. The Beall's worked with me to make sure it was precise with only about 0.0005" run-out. For the mandrel I use hardened precision drill rod 0.250" in diameter and I use a Craft Supplies Precision Machine Pen Center (a live center that mandrel fits into) which I have reamed out to 0.250" and polished the center's throat. Fit's tight without play and slides in smoothly.

When I do two part pens I only turn one half at a time to keep the length down so that I greatly reduce deflection.

So far this mandrel setup has done me well (use a dial indicator to check things), but I am also aware that it's not a standard mandrel setup. 

With all that said though I am interested in learning more about going the TBC route to see what my differences would be in precision. Does anyone have a link to a thread that goes over pen turning using TBC?


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## edstreet

Ogg said:


> Wow this has been a good read so far. I've been away for awhile dealing with health issues and so am trying to catch up on things and saw this thread.
> 
> Some years back I noticed that the mandrels where 0.2475" like Ed has stated. I was also aware of the bushings having an ID of about 0.251"....which left a lot of slop to deal with.
> 
> I had also used the MT #2 pen collet available at most shops, but felt that it too was not as true as it should be.
> 
> What I ended up doing was tossing the MT #2 collet, the stock mandrel and stopped using a pointed live center...Basically tossed everything but the bushings
> 
> Currently I am using a Beall collet chuck that screws onto the lathe's spindle. The Beall's worked with me to make sure it was precise with only about 0.0005" run-out. For the mandrel I use hardened precision drill rod 0.250" in diameter and I use a Craft Supplies Precision Machine Pen Center (a live center that mandrel fits into) which I have reamed out to 0.250" and polished the center's throat. Fit's tight without play and slides in smoothly.
> 
> When I do two part pens I only turn one half at a time to keep the length down so that I greatly reduce deflection.
> 
> So far this mandrel setup has done me well (use a dial indicator to check things), but I am also aware that it's not a standard mandrel setup.
> 
> With all that said though I am interested in learning more about going the TBC route to see what my differences would be in precision. Does anyone have a link to a thread that goes over pen turning using TBC?




There are actually several ways to go about that.  I think the most popular way is with a dead center and a live center, both 60 degree's, like this.









However, if you really wanted to reduce things even more and get good precision then you would need something like this.






and this


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## hazmat74

How do pin jaws add precision for anything but drilling? You arent turning using those jaws, unless i have overlooked something and you are turning one end, flipping, then turning the other. Which to me seems more of a pita than anything else.


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## edstreet

hazmat74 said:


> How do pin jaws add precision for anything but drilling? You arent turning using those jaws, unless i have overlooked something and you are turning one end, flipping, then turning the other. Which to me seems more of a pita than anything else.



Sure?





















That top cap is just sitting there, not glued in yet.


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## hazmat74

I was thinking in terms of turning a whole pen barrel, not parts and pieces. I've yet to turn one, so I'm asking questions, not challenging your methods. Simple curiosity.


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## edstreet

Sure not a problem at all with that. 

There is a group who does not use bushings, on the lathe, and get very good results.  I was attempting to show some parts of that aspect but since none of them have chimed in here I was trying to fill in.

Essentially it is chuck the blank and turn it with calipers to the shape/size needed then part the tube as needed.  With this setup you would remove any slop that mandrel shafts and bushings provide and only have slop from the head/tail, the tool rest and the chisels themselves.


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## hazmat74

Yeah, the more I thought about it, the more I could see how this could be done sans mandrel, TBC, etc. I still have to get proper lathe chisels, so I have a ways to go before I begin experimenting with methods, but it's good to see them discussed so I have several avenues to explore when I (finally) get started.


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## Carl Fisher

My way is neither right or wrong, but I will say that I don't recall the last time I used a mandrel on anything other than 7mm and even then I don't do that often.

The method I use almost exclusively is to start with the stock bushings directly between live and dead 60 degree centers.  I do this so I can rough the blank down until it's just proud of the bushings.  Then I remove the bushings and chuck the blank up directly between centers with the centers pressing into the brass tube directly.  I'll match my caliper to the kit component I am using and then do the finish sizing and detailing until my calipers tell me I'm where I want to be.

The benefit I have found in this method is that it allows me to quickly get close to my finished shape and size and then removing the bushings takes out any possible concentric issues from badly manufactured bushings and lets me hit my target diameter without worrying about the bushings being an exact size match to the components.

Since I switched to this method sometime last year, I have never seen a concentric issue again and the only screw ups are the ones I cause by not paying attention and over shooting my target size. :redface:


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## Russknan

edstreet: "For the mandrel I use hardened precision drill rod 0.250" in diameter". I'm intrigued. Where do you get one of those? Russ


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## hazmat74

Haha... none of you guys are making this easier on me! So many different ways to skin a cat, all of which are perfectly capable of getting the job done.


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## edstreet

hazmat74 said:


> Haha... none of you guys are making this easier on me! So many different ways to skin a cat, all of which are perfectly capable of getting the job done.



The answer lies in the answer you give from "what do you currently have now" and "what do you want to do down the road".  

There are indeed numerous ways to do the same thing and some may be more accurate than others but there are also other methods that are just as equally as accurate.  The answer to that is where is the cut off point for accuracy that you desire and what are you willing to accept to get that level of accuracy.

The other factor I would like you hit you with is what method/practice seems more natural to you.  I watched a video on youtube recently where the turner was cutting on the opposite end of the bowl from where most of us are use to.  This method was perfectly normal for him but it worked for him.


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## hazmat74

"What do you currently have now" is exactly where I'm starting. In truth, I could probably turn a pen today if I chose to. I could use my metal lathe as I have a mandrel and collet for that. Don't like the amount of extra mandrel I'd be dealing with, but them's the breaks. Also, I don't want to turn with the metal cutting tools. I've ordered the mandrel saver kit, so that's where I'll start for now on my wood lathe. Where I want to go... I want to make pens(and other things) as well as I can. What that will be, I shall discover as I go along learning.

Right now, no method seems more natural to me. Yet another thing I'll have to discover as I go along. Looking forward to the adventure and am itching to turn a pen.


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## Rounder

I have only been turning for a short time. I have no garage or shop so I have to drag everything out of the shed, set it up, turn, tear it back down and put it back in the shed. Here is what I suggest:

1. HAVE FUN FIRST!
2. Use what you have until you don't like the results you get (standards seem to increase as knowledge of the hobby increases)
3. Don't use rent or beer money on tools
4. HAVE FUN LAST!

These are all just my opinions. Lots of variety in the knowledge base on this sight and it is all helpful. I am leaps and bounds ahead of where I began but have eons to go to get where I want to be. Listen to all opinions and do the best you can with what you have.

Oh, and one last thing, did I mention to HAVE FUN???!!!


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## healeydays

Funny thing is I have less than 20 pens under my belt so far and I started with a mandrel as most do, but soon learned that I liked turning between the centers better.

I would like to find a set of the 7mm TBC bushings as every place mentioned here didn't either carry them or were out of stock.  If someone has a set they don't use anymore and would like to sell or trade, I'm game...


Mike B


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## edstreet

healeydays said:


> Funny thing is I have less than 20 pens under my belt so far and I started with a mandrel as most do, but soon learned that I liked turning between the centers better.
> 
> I would like to find a set of the 7mm TBC bushings as every place mentioned here didn't either carry them or were out of stock.  If someone has a set they don't use anymore and would like to sell or trade, I'm game...
> 
> Mike B



See link below for tbc 7mm bushings. Last I looked few days ago was on stock.


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## healeydays

edstreet said:


> healeydays said:
> 
> 
> 
> Funny thing is I have less than 20 pens under my belt so far and I started with a mandrel as most do, but soon learned that I liked turning between the centers better.
> 
> I would like to find a set of the 7mm TBC bushings as every place mentioned here didn't either carry them or were out of stock.  If someone has a set they don't use anymore and would like to sell or trade, I'm game...
> 
> Mike B
> 
> 
> 
> 
> See link below for tbc 7mm bushings. Last I looked few days ago was on stock.
Click to expand...


Ed, you forgot the link...

Mike


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## hazmat74

Rounder said:


> I have only been turning for a short time. I have no garage or shop so I have to drag everything out of the shed, set it up, turn, tear it back down and put it back in the shed. Here is what I suggest:
> 
> 1. HAVE FUN FIRST!
> 2. Use what you have until you don't like the results you get (standards seem to increase as knowledge of the hobby increases)
> 3. Don't use rent or beer money on tools
> 4. HAVE FUN LAST!
> 
> These are all just my opinions. Lots of variety in the knowledge base on this sight and it is all helpful. I am leaps and bounds ahead of where I began but have eons to go to get where I want to be. Listen to all opinions and do the best you can with what you have.
> 
> Oh, and one last thing, did I mention to HAVE FUN???!!!



Good advice, thanks. Rest assured, beer money won't be spent on tools. Rent money, I make no promises!

I fully intend to enjoy myself. I've wanted a wood lathe for quite a while. Besides pens, I'm pretty excited about the many other things that can be turned on a lathe. The only thing I'm not excited about is the waiting game while getting rigged up.


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## Dan Hintz

I use both methods.  I start with the mandrel to turn both pieces.  My blanks are typically square/non-square (rarely pre-rounded), so I rough out to within 10-20 mils of desired size.  Once there, I switch over the TBC for final measurements and finishing, one piece at a time.

*One thing may of you might find surprising, however...* I do not use bushings for my TBC.  That's right, the 60 degree centers go right into the ends of my tubes.  That guarantees me a centered tube regardless.  I run into minor issues with shaping near the ends of the blank as the gouge gets close to the 60 degree centers, but that's mostly because I use a 1-1/2" roughing gouge to do all of my work (I'm neglecting the parting tool for the moment).

So, mandrel or TBC, I'm adding a new dimension to the fight... bushing or no bushing


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## Nikitas

I have a pair of 7mm on hand...


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## edstreet

healeydays said:


> Ed, you forgot the link...
> 
> Mike



Sorry!  I thought the link was here somewhere and I was on my iphone at the time.

7mm Triple Play [7MM_Triple_Play] - $21.00 : Penturners Products!  Try this link.  If out of stock then send him email and ask for a set when he has time, he just made me 2 sets of emperor Jr bushings.

Also keep in mind to that he has several 'washers' that fits on the slimline bushings for things like euro's and other similar type models.


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## DurocShark

Here's my suggestion:

There are essentially three basic methods: 
1. Mandrel (whether using the MT adapters, or a collet or whatever)
2. Non-Mandrel with bushings.
3. Non-Mandrel and Non-Bushings

My recommendation is to play with each one. Get competent with each one. Because each will have pros and cons and as you grow, you will find that some things can only be done using one of those methods (or a combination of methods.)

I find that I use a mandrel a LOT more than the other two. But if I don't have bushings to fit my needs, I'll go TBC with homemade delrin or even scrap wood "bushings". Basically just holders. Mic'ing as I go. 

If I'm doing something completely custom, then I might go bushingless altogether. Especially if I'm doing a carving or finial. 

It's good to learn new techniques, even if you have no intention of using them once you've learned them.


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## mikespenturningz

You know there are so many answers to this question and it comes up here a lot. Don you just gave a great answer! Play around and try them all. 

I don't recommend without bushings until you get a bit of experience though. I use it but only from time to time. It is very easy to put too much pressure on the blank as a novice. Try turning without bushings on a spare tube and if it works make the other half of the pen the same way. 

There are many ways to make a pen and none of them are actually wrong!


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## mightymavkev

I agree.   Like most everything else, it comes down to personal preference for you and also what you are looking to get out of pen turning.   

For me, the first priority is whatever makes things more enjoyable.    This is a hobby for me and it's less about "precision" and more about the fun and relaxation I have spending a few hours in the shop making something unique that I know I did myself.   If that thing ends up going to a friend, family member, or even sold to a customer at some point - it doesn't matter.

That's not to say that I don't strive to make the best project I can possibly make - and that goes for precision as well - but I'm just a bit more realistic about what is acceptable for my purposes vs. what might be acceptable to others who have different goals.

For what it's worth, I started using a mandrel and that was for no other reason than it's what the person who got me started used and i copied him.

Then I graduated to a mandrel saver rather than using the little knurled wheel to tighten the blanks.

I then eventually just went to the TBC method.  I still use the standard "kit" bushings however and I've never seen the need to buy special "TBC" bushings.

I remove the bushings for finishing.

I think the thing that drove this for me more than anything was less about precision and more about the fact that I use my lathe as my primary tool for just about all steps of my pen making.   So I like the fact that I can remove the blank and replace it quickly (or go from one blank to another when making multiples) without having to disassemble and reassemble a mandrel with all the pieces.

For me, a couple turns of the tail stock wheel and the blank is off the lathe and the next blank can be put on just as quickly.


I hope all of the advise ends up proving helpful to you.   The folks out here are awesome and I've learned so much from all of them.     I honestly find reading this forum "almost" as addicting as the actual turning sometimes.

good luck and welcome to the hobby.

Kevin


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## steve worcester

I don't get this. (bear with me here) If the idea is to get better precision , why not a better mandrel. This is a presumption you are turning a two piece pen.  If the issue is runout, then it is in the hardware. It could be lathe, mandrel or bushings. If any of those are out of your spec, get one that is different.

I have a good lathe (I am a Robust dealer) and switched from a generic mandrel to a Whiteside (from Woodcraft) and then consider the bushings as a consumable. Hit it with the gouge or skew and then throw them out for a new set.

If you are turning a single barrel, it is alignment. At that point it is either head to tailstock alignment, or bushings off center. I don't see the issue. Measure runout and if it is constantly off, find a new vendor. BUT there is an amour of acceptable runout. That part is personal. If you can hit the diameter dead on to the bushing with the tool (which is difficult to measure with a caliper) and the pen is high or low, measure the bushings and the pen parts and figure out which is off and replace or compensate for it.

Granted, it has been 1)+ years since I turned pens for shows (until lately) but I don't think the technology has changed that much. If it has, school me. Just be kind.


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## Bobostro61

There's special bushings for TBC?  I didn't know that.  I've done a few pens TBC using the bushings I bought for the pens from PSI.  Seems they work just fine.  I'd like to do more TBC but I run in to problems with small tubes.  Not enough room between the head and tail stocks to get my 6" tool rest between them.  That's the smallest tool rest I have.  You do you pros do for small tubes?  For example, a Woodcraft Retro?  Those tubes are SMALL.


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## Lenny

I like tbc ... and wouldn't discourage you from trying it, however, I still use a mandrel often and wouldn't want to be without that either. 
Whatever you decide to start with, know that you will NEED more to feed the addiction!


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## Lenny

Bobostro61 said:


> There's special bushings for TBC?  I didn't know that.  I've done a few pens TBC using the bushings I bought for the pens from PSI.  Seems they work just fine.  I'd like to do more TBC but I run in to problems with small tubes.  Not enough room between the head and tail stocks to get my 6" tool rest between them.  That's the smallest tool rest I have.  You do you pros do for small tubes?  For example, a Woodcraft Retro?  Those tubes are SMALL.



There are only three things you need to try tbc, one you should already have, the 60 degree live center for your tail stock ( not the stock cup center that comes with most lathes).

The two other necessities are a 60 degree dead center for the headstock and, as you have discovered, a short tool rest as you will be turning only one blank at a time.  Check out member Rick Herrell ... He makes nice custom rests.
Special tbc bushings are great but not necessary to get started.


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## Russknan

hazmat74 said:


> I am leaning toward tbc. So many things to pick up with the different lathe. It is a serious change of direction after planning on rigging up the taig.
> 
> Extra question: where is a good place to pick up 2 mt centers? I am going to need live, dead and drill chuck.



No hesitation for me, John Goodin (Johnny CNC) Penturnersproducts.com. Or, you could do like I did. Buy elsewhere, be vaguely dissatisfied, then buy John's stuff. Jacobs chuck is full 5/8" and has a massive chuck key. Jaws are beautiful. Live center is similarly superior. You can probably get a decent dead center in a variety of places, in addition to John. Russ


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## Dan Masshardt

Bobostro61 said:


> There's special bushings for TBC?  I didn't know that.  I've done a few pens TBC using the bushings I bought for the pens from PSI.  Seems they work just fine.  I'd like to do more TBC but I run in to problems with small tubes.  Not enough room between the head and tail stocks to get my 6" tool rest between them.  That's the smallest tool rest I have.  You do you pros do for small tubes?  For example, a Woodcraft Retro?  Those tubes are SMALL.



Absolutely get a shorter tool rest.  Rick will make you are great one for 20% off this month.  Check out the bash vendor discounts.


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## mikespenturningz

I just cut the ends off my rest so it would fit. Then I ordered one from Rick Herrell. Love his rest that is for sure.


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## TonyL

Made my first 15 pens with a mandrel and my results were inconsistent regardless of turning one barrel or two at a time. The next 50 pens were TBC and I don't see a reason (for me) to go back to using a mandrel. I have even used TBCs to "fix" OOR, mandrel-made pens for myself and a fellow turner. I use my mandrel (and mandrel- saver) for sanding and finishing double barrel pens.


----------

