# Am I getting left behind, or is this a passing fad?



## beck3906 (Mar 31, 2012)

More and more posts are showinge kitless pens.  I haven't joined that club yet, but I do wonder if I'm being left behind if I don't.  Is this a passing fad like so many other things?  Or is the kitless move here to stay and I need to join to be competitive with sales?


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## JamesB (Mar 31, 2012)

Rick, I don't do kitless either.  I don't have the tools or skills to do that yet.  I think kitless pens are here to stay.  It's a natural progression I think, kind of like from black and White TV to Color to HD, etc.  Thats wasn't a passing fad and I bet there are people who say that the B&W TVs were better.  I like B&W photographs.
As far as sales, there's a market for kits and kitless, depends on the buyer.
Then again,  I have no experience in the market, this is just what I think.


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## OKLAHOMAN (Mar 31, 2012)

Rick, I have been know to be wrong a time or two, but component-less is here to stay. Will it ever be as big as Component pens I don't think in the overall scheme of things as far as sales go. When doing Art shows especally in todays art shows you need bling and even though Component-less pens take skill they are for the most part bling-less. Until the component-less pens start having custom center bands, a final with some bling maybe some filigree and don't look like a round stick of plastic they just won't sell as well.
Now take that same component -less pen to a strickly PEN SHOW price it right and then you'll sell some but not at your everyday craft or art show.


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## ed4copies (Mar 31, 2012)

Well, Rick, consider what we (penmakers) have complained about, over the years.

Plating flaws from some kits---kitless removes this problem.
Mechanical parts (transmissions) not working properly:  most kitless are not retractable, so this is neither fixed nor not fixed with kitless.
Components "breaking".  Plastic components used where we thought there should be metal, due to the stress on the part.  This will be "fixed" by those making "kitless" designs that use metal---those using resins will have even thinner parts, far more likely to break.  So, the problem is worse, not better.

Overall, let's think about the marketing question:
How many times have YOU read, "My market won't purchase "high dollar" pens"?  Then, you read that "high dollar" to this person may mean $50-$75.  BUT, you read that each craftsman wants to earn good money per hour.  So, if the person takes the time and buys all the necessary tooling to make a first class kitless pen, he will be threading inner and outer cap and  front section inner and outer.  In total, four sets of threads.  Of course, he should want the grain of the finished pen to match, so there is more to it than just threading.  AT BEST, this will require an extra 40 minutes per pen.  

Will he now develop the talent to SELL THIS pen for the $100 he was unable to get for the more durable "kit" pen?  Probably not.  

The result:  Those making kitless pens will find that they are appreciated in the "pen show" world, more than anywhere else.  But, they are then competing with well-established "brands" that are also "kitless".  Grayson Tighe, Edison Pens, Rich Kleinhenz, Allan Shaw to name a few. (In the West, the names are different, but the case is the same).  

The guy who said "My market won't support $50" is never gonna make it, up against any ONE of those names, much less all of them.

In the Art and Craft show world I ran into precious few real knowledgeable pen people who were opposed to the "kit".  Durable parts, nice writing flow and a good looking body made a pen desired---all characteristics you can sell in a component pen.

"Kitless" in the hands of Rich Kleinhenz will sell!  But, in Rich's hands, so would a component pen---if he wanted it to.

They (kitless and component) are both just products.  YOU provide the sizzle, YOU will make the sale.

Final thought:  On a cost-per-hour basis, your component made pen will be much less expensive.  And it offers the opportunity to be a very steady income. I enjoyed many return customers.

FWIW


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## JamesB (Mar 31, 2012)

OKLAHOMAN said:


> ...even though Component-less pens take skill they are for the most part bling-less. Until the component-less pens...don't look like a round stick of plastic they just won't sell as well.


Yep, I was thinking that too, but didn't want to offend anyone who makes them because their experience and skill far surpasses my own.


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## Gary Beasley (Mar 31, 2012)

I would think working on a kitless pen will gain you more skill in working with the kit pens. Kinda like a musician practicing runs and riffs, may sound a bit confusing but when the actual performance arrives the skill level shows itself.


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## ashur (Mar 31, 2012)

I just finished my second (really the first GOOD one) kitless today and I'm sold!!!! Been making kit pens for a number of years and finally made a pen that fits my hand and is a joy to write with and look at.  It’s allowed me to go to the next step of creativity without limits.
 
I’m not fond of the gold/jewel bling and with kitless I can experiment with my own fill systems.
 
My next pen will have an ink fill system of my own design.  If I can get the photo thing down, I’ll post some pictures.
 
Al


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## nava1uni (Mar 31, 2012)

I think that both have a place, as Ed pointed out, in different markets and skill levels.
Buying quality kit components allow for a quality pen as long as the turning is quality turning.  If you don't have a turning that is high quality it won't matter whether you pen is kitless or a kit.


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## joefyffe (Mar 31, 2012)

Cindy:  You've been reading my mail!!    I agree completely.   One of the most meaningful things, I hear, is "You do nice work"  Especially when it comes from a new customer.  
The components could be "PURE" gold, the pen would be bought, (if priced right ), dismantled and the gold taken to a pawn shop, if the workmanship SUCKS!!!  I think we'd all be better off if we forgot about the "$ per hour" and got back to the enjoyment of the "ART"    Money isn't everything!!!  ENJOY, ENJOY, ENJOY TURNING  !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!




nava1uni said:


> I think that both have a place, as Ed pointed out, in different markets and skill levels.
> Buying quality kit components allow for a quality pen as long as the turning is quality turning. If you don't have a turning that is high quality it won't matter whether you pen is kitless or a kit.


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## 76winger (Mar 31, 2012)

Lots of good points by Roy and Ed. And it's kind of what I've envisioned as I've progressed into pen making myself. 

There's a couple of things that will keep me from trying kitless in the near future (who knows about years from now), not because of anything I dislike about them though. Most of my viewpoint is centered around selling the pens I make because although it's still more of a hobby, I'm treating it as a business in that everything I do with it needs to also be funded by it. :glasses-nerdy: I've had too many hobbies over the years that were nothing but methods to spend money and have turned from that way of thinking,  so this (woodworking/turning/penmaking) will either pay for itself or I'll have to give it up. :frown:

So with that stance:

I've sort of gravitated in to pen making because I like working with wood, and the way we see the general design of kitless pens being made, there would never be enough strength in the threaded areas without some kind of plastic or metal inserts that could be threaded for strength in those areas. I do branch out a make a lot of acrylic pens as well, but it's because I see them selling at the rate or 2 or 3 to one  wood version, so the sales of those fund the building of the ones I really like (and as mentioned, component based seems to have a wider market than kitless.

And there's the time involvement side of the equation the guys above mentioned, along with the reduced market for selling. I don't have a lot of extra time for making my pens (and selling them) due to still being firmly planted in the workforce for the foreseeable future. So I'd rather spend the time I have making 3 or 4 nice component based pens in that same amount of time it would otherwise take me to make one kitless pen. And then I get to reap more rewards from multiple sales for a given amount of my time investment rather than fewer from the kitless lineup. 

I also fear kitless getting dropped and broken more and thus escalating repair time, keeping me from making more pens.

Tooling up to make them is another obstacle, because I'm striving for a self-funding activity. The funds from sales are growing inventory and offerings rather than a tool collection! Tools can some when I feel the hobby is turning the corner to profitability and can then afford that extra tooling. So growing this great activity organically is more important to me than attempting kitless at this point. 

Kitless does require more skill along with more tooling, but it also opens to the door to more creativity and "showing your mettle" with what you create. So it would be great to delve into it for those reasons, but before I can be an artist at that level, I have to be able to afford to be one. :island:


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## Paul in OKC (Mar 31, 2012)

beck3906 said:


> More and more posts are showinge kitless pens.  I haven't joined that club yet, but I do wonder if I'm being left behind if I don't.  Is this a passing fad like so many other things?  Or is the kitless move here to stay and I need to join to be competitive with sales?



Ain't there either, Rick.


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## OKLAHOMAN (Mar 31, 2012)

Last year I ran an experiment with 3 component-less pens. I took them to every show,  displayed them in my locked vertical display case. Any time someone said 
"these pens are to big,heavy, etc., I then took the three pens out and showed them, most liked them but would not pay over $100 for one but many of them ended up paying much more for a component pen after some more showing them and explaining the virtues of one. These three pens were made by one of our top component less pen makers whos name is with held unless he comes forward  lets me know he won't mind me telling.


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## Smitty37 (Mar 31, 2012)

*Enjoy what you do*

Never having turned a "kitless" I can't speak for whether or not it is more fun.

In the beginning, there were kitless pens because there were no kits.  Obviously kitless didn't work real well because several fairly good sized companies grew up world wide making component sets.  The hand turned pen industry as we now know it is in fact, the child of component set pens.  Most of us (turners, hobbiests, vendors) would not be here were it not for component sets.

At the risk of arousing some of my friends here - most of the "kitless" I've seen - even some really nice ones.  Look to me like they could have come out of a Papermate factory.  The self molded plastics used to be a bit unique but today you can buy a seemingly endless variety of man made materials in countless colors and/or color combinations.  Some vendors here have hundreds in their shop.

Now that being said...if 'kitless' is what you like to do, by all means do it and enjoy.  Is there a market - well the better marketeers have already spoken on this and the consensus seems to be that there is, but probably not as big or as pricy as you'd like.  Live with it.


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## Texatdurango (Mar 31, 2012)

beck3906 said:


> More and more posts are showinge kitless pens.  I haven't joined that club yet, but I do wonder if I'm being left behind if I don't.  Is this a passing fad like so many other things?  Or is the kitless move here to stay and I need to join to be competitive with sales?



My turn! :biggrin:

 My personal opinion is that it is not an “either / or” situation and the terms "kitless", "kit" and the latest addition..."Component Set" used outside the forum are totally meaningless!   Just the fact that some came up with the term "component set" to make a "kit" sound classier shows a division of sorts where there really isn't or shouldn't be one.

I don't see “going kitless” as joining a club or hopping on a fad, I just see pen makers having fun making pens!  Where is it written that if you make hand crafted pens that they all have to start out by gluing brass tubes into pieces of wood?
 
We're all pen makers with a wide variety of skills, likes and dislikes...... pure and simple.  Some are in it for the money, some are in it for the enjoyment (and the money :wink but I don't see choosing either kit or kitless as a criteria for success!  Personally when I spend 10 hours in the shop "playing around" and leave with a smile on my face, THAT is a successful day!  It doesn't matter whether I made 4 "kitless" pens or crafted a Jr Statesman with a hunk of Amboyna burl that keeps catching my eye in the shop or I spent the day playing around with a new gold plating "toy" or having the local silversmith teach me how to solder silver to make tubes for accent bands.   As long as I'm having fun, I'll continue with what I'm doing...... either kit, kitless or both.

Everyone here is different, I got to where I despised setting up a booth at a CRAFT SHOW with my "HAND CRAFTED" pens only to have Sally and her scented candles (taken fresh out of the boxes labeled "Made in China") set up next to me then spend the day explaining why my pens are more expensive than the five pack of Bic or Uniball pens at WalMart.

I tried a few pen shows and THAT is where I enjoy being, I like the people and I like the passion folks have for pens.  In February I did a pen show and had a few dozen upper end kit pens (Lotus, Imperial and Emperor kits) as well as my own kitless pens and a few miscellaneous novelty kits displayed.  I sold one kit pen and 13 kitless!  Was I pushing my kitless... I don't think so, people had a choice as to which side of the table they showed their interest.  So don't let anyone feed you this nonsense that kitless pens don't sell.

The bottom line, if you enjoy making pens without brass tubes, GO FOR IT, just don't think of it as a milestone or level of accomplishment, it's just different.  Know your market and don't plan on setting up at the local high school gymnasium craft show with fountain pens priced at $250.... you might go home disappointed. 

 And lastly, don't let others talk you out of  trying your own ideas or intimidate you by dropping names of accomplished pen makers and eluding that you aren't good enough to compete with them or the Big Name companies.  Heck, I feel right at home selling my pens amongst the big boys and so should anyone who chooses to do so!


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## Smitty37 (Mar 31, 2012)

Texatdurango said:


> beck3906 said:
> 
> 
> > More and more posts are showinge kitless pens. I haven't joined that club yet, but I do wonder if I'm being left behind if I don't. Is this a passing fad like so many other things? Or is the kitless move here to stay and I need to join to be competitive with sales?
> ...


As one of the guys who pushed component set rather than kit, I assure you that wasn't the reason.   Because of my own experience, to me "kit" implied complete, put it together and you have a pen.   Component sets doesn't imply complete, you have to add something.


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## ed4copies (Mar 31, 2012)

Since I was using the term "component sets" when we were doing shows, before I was even AWARE of IAP, the purpose was to be careful with regard to the show promoters applications.

Many of these said "NO KITS ALLOWED".

I avoided the debate by calling my pens "hand made using high-quality components".

This started (for me) around the turn of the century, about 3 years BEFORE IAP was founded.


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## Texatdurango (Mar 31, 2012)

ed4copies said:


> Since I was using the term "component sets" when we were doing shows, before I was even AWARE of IAP, the purpose was to be careful with regard to the show promoters applications.
> 
> Many of these said "NO KITS ALLOWED".
> 
> ...


 
I can only speak to what I see and read.  I've only been around this forum since 2007 and in five years can't recall ever hearing of anyone using the term until last year when going kitless was all the rage.  Then we started seeing the word "component this and that" a lot!  You're right though, it's probably just a coincidense!


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## ed4copies (Mar 31, 2012)

Perhaps this entry from 2006 will predate your arrival here.

Or not,

http://www.penturners.org/forum/f22/%22thats-too-easy%22-demo-21363/

Note the allusion to the "components", NOT a kit.


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## Smitty37 (Mar 31, 2012)

*Predates me.*

That entry will certainly predate me....but I promise I never saw you mention it here before I started....Roy might have.  

I started using it for the reason I gave...in my experience with kits, kit implied complete.  I have some experience in the arena...doll house furniture, model railroading, model cars, model airplanes (six kids)...I also put together a grandfather clock kit and a school house clock kit for myself another clock kit as a gift and a replica ice box kit all were complete, the builder didn't have to add anything.  Pen kits always required a "value add" operation from the maker other than simple assembly.  

btw at least one chinese manufacturer is selling pen kits that require *only assembly, *every thing is provided including the glue needed.  Saw them at one of the alibaba type sites -dont recall which.


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## Lucky2 (Mar 31, 2012)

Personally, as a new member to this forum and to pen turning also, I will state that I am of the mind that each person should make whatever type or style of pen they choose. I also think that as pen turners we should all be interested in anything that is new in the trade, but I don't think that everyone has to start playing monkey see monkey do. If you are comfortable turning what you are presently turning, and if you are selling what you are presently turning, then why stop and start spending a bunch of money on something that you really don't like or have any interest in turning? To each their own. 
Len


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## BRobbins629 (Apr 1, 2012)

I have been making pens now for more than 6 years.  I do this strictly as a hobby, give away many more pens than I sell and when I do sell, its usually as a request from a friend at cost or less.  I make both kit and kitless pens, but kitless always when they are for me.  My personal objective was for people who see my pens to be able to know they were mine just by looking.  Kitless was one way to help that image but as the number of kitless makers increases it gets a little harder - a challenge I embrace.   A number of members are able to do that with blanks.  People like Eagle, Toni, Jeff Powell, and some others are easily identifiable.  I also have no interest in completing a pen in 15 minutes.  For me, the longer it takes the more satisfaction I get.  I've literally been working out the details on a few for several years - not consistently, but ever so often I try something else to see if that method will work.  Its all about what goals you want to set for yourself.  If you are in this for the money, high volume low cost or low volume high cost can work, and as many have shown, kits or kitless can be viable paths.  At the fountain pen network a group buy for about 120 kitless pens from Edison Pen is underway.  Brian Gray, once a maker from pen kits, has established himself as one of the top kitless pen makers in the country, is a fixture at pen shows and is quite successful. Ed, Roy and others have been very successful on art and craft show circuits.  So, to answer your question, you first have to decide what is your vision.  Do you want to make money at this?  If so, there are many paths equally profitable with the only thing in common is that they all require hard work.  Or is it just a hobby where you only have to satisfy yourself?  Do you want to be unique or is that not important to you?  Answer these and you will know whether or not you are getting left behind.


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## BradG (Apr 1, 2012)

While i completely agree with the posts above about the extra time involved in making kitless pens for shows (at this point il hold my hand up and say i have zero experiance selling at shows) i can unsterstand from a customers perspective that the bling of a kit can be more appealing, and more appealing to the turner for the vast amount of time it saves..

But the opinions above with regards making kitless is blingless i do disagree with?

I am starting to tool up to go kitless myself, and im glad i started with kits. ive learned alot and its made the curve of learning not so steep as it could have been making them from scratch. we all know the amount of things which can go wrong when turning kits! let alone what can go wrong when you are doing all of it lol

(i remember my first pen i took about 5mm of the brass tube off with the trimmer without realising!!! then proceeded to try and assemble a click pen with it.. then had to figure out why it didnt work. sometimes i think we may take our levels for granted, when you think back of some of the errors we made in the early days)

One thing i do know about IAP is that the community here is just fantastic. it couldnt be better.. there is no flaming, and whatever the question anyone is always keen to jump in and help each other out with this fantastic hobby or profession.

This brings me back to kitless pens. these do not need to be blingless. Just for those which feel their pen is missing a touch of bling by doing it kitless, they may be ready to move up another step of the learning ladder, and start chrome and gold plating parts themselves. With the pieces i have been designing and working on i have been concerned that i may be going from a kit pen, to a kitless kit pen replica :redface: kinda defeats the object of going kitless when you have made your pen to look like a kitted pen, or does it?

I will gladly teach anyone and give them copius amounts of time on how to anodise aluminium a vast array of different colours. I fully appreciate making metal pens may jnot appeal as the majority love making wood pens and for good reason too. a hunk of metal however its cut or finished will never hold the character as the grain of wood will. but as for the rest of the pen which would normally be gold of chrome there is no reason why you cant turn that yourself out of brass for instance and then plate it.

How good will the plating be? better than the plating on the best kits you can buy if you do it right. worried about the plating rubbing off with people using the pens in day to day use? good! you should be.. this is why we tank plate instead of electro brush plate.. this way we can build a nice thick layer of plating up is it easy to tank plate chrome? oh yes. is it easy to tank plate gold? er... kinda.. yes its as easy as chrome... its just the setup costs as gold solution is alot more than chrome though not silly. we are blessed that we make pens and not car parts. the amount of solution and the size of the tanks are alot smaller compared. I have a chrome tank setup, and im moving on from electro brush plating gold to tank plating and i expect this tank of chemicals to cost me around £200.00 .. but its worth. it doesnt expire so long as you keep it clean and the coats you will get will be fantastic...

I think that perhaps we, as a community may be ready to take kitless to the next level... and start giving kitless its bling. What does everyone think?

Some of you know that im opening a pen supplies store website targeting europe (I live in the UK) though i am also chewing over the idea of shipping all the chmicals and everything else involved in anodising and plating. would no doubt do it as kits for an all in one solution for pen turners.

Peoples thoughts on this are most welcome...


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## OKLAHOMAN (Apr 1, 2012)

I have been using the phrase *"I USE THE FINEST OF COMPONENTS* *AVAILABLE TO MAKE MY PENS*" for entry forms at shows and also as a sales tool when talking to a customer, this has naturally progressed into me saying here on the site Component pens vs kit pens. It's just the salesman in me that wants to use words that grab the customers attention and the word KIT would suggest to the average customer at a craft,art,pen festival what have you that all we do is buy a KIT and assemble. Whereas using *components *means we search out the finest components to MAKE our pens of art from, Not just assemble them. . George knows the reason I use it is for sales but it also is to raise the bar just a tad from the paint by numbers painter. I will not argue who used it first, just that I use it and will continue to use* "Component Pens" *or* "Component-Less pens"..*


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## beck3906 (Apr 1, 2012)

I appreciate the comments and hope others offer more as I gain from each.

My reluctance to join this movement is due to my concerns for durability of the items I sell.  That's why I ask if this may be a passing fad as I may not need to join if this passes by the wayside.  

I study the photos of the kitless pens and wonder about the durability of the body and sections when used by people other than a true pen collector.  I remember the problems I/we had with the El Grande breaking when handled roughly.  It appears the threading and joints on many kitless lens are fragile and could easily break if subjected to rough use.  This appears even more apparent for the threading area for the cap to thread onto the body.

I do enjoy the works of those that have truly advanced their skills.  My hope is to one day offer pens that approach the work of many that have left the IAP and gone onto truly artistic ventures without needing the inspiration of this site.   Those same individuals have made a name for themselves in the pen world and approached some level of success selling their work.

I've been hesitant to Join the kitless movement until I see/hear of the durability question.  I definitely don't want products I sell returned because of faulty construction.

Now, I will say that I have collected a few things for kitless use such as taps and dies over the last few months.  Just for when I may be ready.   :wink:


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## Timebandit (Apr 1, 2012)

OKLAHOMAN said:


> Last year I ran an experiment with 3 component-less pens. I took them to every show,  displayed them in my locked vertical display case. Any time someone said
> "these pens are to big,heavy, etc., I then took the three pens out and showed them, most liked them but would not pay over $100 for one but many of them ended up paying much more for a component pen after some more showing them and explaining the virtues of one. These three pens were made by one of our top component less pen makers whos name is with held unless he comes forward  lets me know he won't mind me telling.



I see no harm:wink:



beck3906 said:


> I appreciate the comments and hope others offer more as I gain from each.
> 
> My reluctance to join this movement is due to my concerns for durability of the items I sell.  That's why I ask if this may be a passing fad as I may not need to join if this passes by the wayside.
> 
> ...



So you have more worries of faulty construction on the component-less pens than your component pens Obviously you havent been around long enough to know of all of the different issues with KITS. Plating issues, thread issues, clicker part issues, and a plethora of other issues. Why? Quality control.They are pumping out kits like no tomorrow and dont have the time to check them all. If you make a component-less pen, and it comes back, then that is on you. That is your quality control mistake. Will the pens break if dropped, possibly, but none of my pens have had issues with threads, caps, sections, clickers, or any other issue. Why? Because of my quality control. Component pens can not work right out of the package sometimes. Or make it to the customer, and the click stop working, or the threaded insert for the cap comes loose or.................................. My point is, the pens are only as strong as you make them. You can make them thicker or thinner, your choice. My pens might be stronger(or weaker than others) depending on how thick i make them. You shouldnt be concerned with he durability of other component-less pens makers pens, only your own.


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## OKLAHOMAN (Apr 1, 2012)

Timebandit said:


> OKLAHOMAN said:
> 
> 
> > Last year I ran an experiment with 3 component-less pens. I took them to every show, displayed them in my locked vertical display case. Any time someone said
> ...


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## Smitty37 (Apr 1, 2012)

*Quality control*



Timebandit said:


> OKLAHOMAN said:
> 
> 
> > Last year I ran an experiment with 3 component-less pens. I took them to every show, displayed them in my locked vertical display case. Any time someone said
> ...


 
Justin, all mass produced items for any purpose (not just pen related) are controlled for quality using statistical methods.  It is not possible to individually inspect each piece and still maintain a reasonable pricing structure.  

The Japanese probably did the best job of perfecting statistical quality control although they were taught by an American Dr. William Deming - They call it Total Quality Management and the best at it might receive the Deming Prize.


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## beck3906 (Apr 1, 2012)

So you have more worries of faulty construction on the component-less pens than your component pens Obviously you havent been around long enough to know of all of the different issues with KITS. own.


Haven't been around long enough?

Hmmmmmmm.....

I've been making pens since about 1999 when I took my first class. Been a member her since 2005.    I've seen the advances in pen kits and watched the development of this hobby.  While I don't contribute as much as I would like, I do offer comment here when I feel I have something beneficial.

And, yes, I've seen the big names leave here and go on to bigger things.  I still check in on their web sites occasionally to get that inspirational moment.  

My largest holdback on entering the realm of kitless, segmented, and other areas is due to my time.  My beans and taters job requires a lot of travel and work while in the office.  I'm about to change some of the way I do things when I get my shop and house a bit further along.

Maybe the challenge has now been made.:biggrin:


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## Ambidex (Apr 1, 2012)

Don't want to be labeled as a neanderthal, but find kit pens as..well...as much fun as any other..plus don't have to talk down or make snide comments about preferences...uh.. at least not that often..:wink:..am pretty sure no one on this site started turning faultless kitless or even high end kits their first turns..but have been wrong beforeand as you can see, I didn't read many posts after the op..


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## ed4copies (Apr 1, 2012)

quoting Smitty:
_Justin, all mass produced items for any purpose (not just pen related)  are controlled for quality using statistical methods.  It is not  possible to individually inspect each piece and still maintain a  reasonable pricing structure.

_This is accurate.  However, it takes MUCH LESS TIME to completely check a set of components BEFORE you assemble a pen than it would take you to MAKE the same number of threads, etc.  

So, from a completely "time and cost" evaluation--kitless will ALWAYS be more expensive to make than an equivalent machined part.  And, with proper testing before use, you can be assured the machined part is more durable and functions smoothly.

Hence, if you choose to go kitless, you MUST be a better salesman to command the higher price your product should demand, based on hours spent.



Some here will argue that they are not trying to make money, just have fun.  God bless you, it must be nice to be wealthy.  For those of us who expect the hobby to pay for itself, time IS WORTH something.  I believe Rick and the others who go through the rigors of "shows" have already shown they are trying to make a business, albeit small, of their pens.

Not surprisingly, IAP (several hundred people, mostly guys who share a common "talent") brings out the competitive "juices" for pens that are "posted" on the site.  So, the "winner" is the guy who makes the most from the least, showing the greatest ingenuity----which is fine for an internet forum.

Put us all in one large "pen venue" and see what the "pen buyer" will gravitate toward.

If you believe the answer is a "kitless" pen, you should make them.
I am comfortable selling metal threads and their inherent reliability, against a "kitless", sporting less than 1mm of resin, threaded on both sides, yielding a "cleaner" look, until the first time it is dropped.

For you, specifically, Rick--- I think your circumstances are similar to ours, when we did shows.  I could "crank out" 40 cigar pens in a day.  Take them to the show and sell 30 or so each day.  IF I had taken the time to perfect "kitless", it might have been a week or two (fast learner with experience in most of the facets of threading). 

OR, in the same 2 weeks, I could have produced a couple hundred cigar pens----not doing so would be SERIOUS lost revenue.  Not a gamble I would feel was worthwhile.

YMMV,

ed


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## Smitty37 (Apr 1, 2012)

ed4copies said:


> quoting Smitty:
> _Justin, all mass produced items for any purpose (not just pen related) are controlled for quality using statistical methods. It is not possible to individually inspect each piece and still maintain a reasonable pricing structure._
> 
> *This is accurate. However, it takes MUCH LESS TIME to completely check a set of components BEFORE you assemble a pen than it would take you to MAKE the same number of threads, etc.*
> ...


 That is absolutely correct -- I buy a box of screws and it is a lead pipe cinch the the manufacturer did not inspect every single screw to make sure it has threads....but I sure do.  

You're also correct that it doesn't take more than a minute or two to check the components are all there, and plating is satisfactory....time well spent.

We allow a week to look over kits and bring up problems, if any.  Plenty of time, even though we don't usually hold folks to that time limit.  I recently replaced a transmission found three months after shipping.


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## BRobbins629 (Apr 1, 2012)

For those worried about the longevity of kitless pens, just think about all the vintage pens still in use and in strong demand.  Many of these are made from some of the same preferred kitless materials such as ebonite and celluloid and at thicknesses similar to what many of us use.  These have stood the test of time.  Yes, some are in need of repair just as kit pens are from time to time.  I'm in no way knocking the kit or component sets - they just need 50 or 100 years to catch up.


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## hunter-27 (Apr 1, 2012)

BRobbins629 said:


> I'm in no way knocking the kit or component sets - they just need 50 or 100 years to catch up.


Or.....................Are they 50-100 years more advanced than those "vintage" things you mention?:wink:  Perhaps "kitless" is actually step backward on the evolutionary scale.


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## Smitty37 (Apr 1, 2012)

*Hmmmm*



hunter-27 said:


> BRobbins629 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm in no way knocking the kit or component sets - they just need 50 or 100 years to catch up.
> ...


Many if not most of those vintage pens you are talking about came off assembly lines - they were mass produced like Bic pens today. While there were top end pens, companies like Waterman, Sheaffer and Parker all produced a whole lot more popular priced pens than they did expensive. While manufacturing in the 1920s and 1930s didn't compare to todays automated factories they nevertheless produced in large quantities.


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## ed4copies (Apr 1, 2012)

BRobbins629 said:


> For those worried about the longevity of kitless pens, just think about all the vintage pens still in use and in strong demand.  Many of these are made from some of the same preferred kitless materials such as ebonite and celluloid and at thicknesses similar to what many of us use.  These have stood the test of time.  Yes, some are in need of repair just as kit pens are from time to time.  I'm in no way knocking the kit or component sets - they just need 50 or 100 years to catch up.




The difference today is the care they will receive Bruce.  Having sold a LOT of hand made pens, they nearly always came to another show and came out of the ladies purse.  Where they are comfortably embedded with car keys to scratch them, and other "pointy objects".

If all our pens were purchased by collectors (as most of your high quality work probably is), there would not be a question of durability.  But how many guys on IAP have "bragged" that they carry their pen in a pants pocket??  How the heck can you sit down without putting stress on a 6", non-pliable stick in your pocket???

Care would be nice, but it is not likely to happen to many of our "functional works of art".


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## Andrew_K99 (Apr 1, 2012)

ed4copies said:


> ...  How the heck can you sit down without putting stress on a 6", non-pliable stick in your pocket???...


LMAO!!!


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## Andrew_K99 (Apr 1, 2012)

I think everyone agrees that there is a market for both, and the market for 'kit' pens is greater for a number if reasons.

If it's a hobby do what you want, if you're trying to make money determine what your market is.


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## joefyffe (Apr 1, 2012)

EXACTLY!!!!!




Gary Beasley said:


> I would think working on a kitless pen will gain you more skill in working with the kit pens. Kinda like a musician practicing runs and riffs, may sound a bit confusing but when the actual performance arrives the skill level shows itself.


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## Smitty37 (Apr 2, 2012)

joefyffe said:


> EXACTLY!!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
You might be right...I suspect that turning a lot of things other than pens would enhance the skill in turning, measuring etc.


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## OldGrumpy (Apr 2, 2012)

As with most arts and crafts, pen making has many variations, skill sets, and preferences.  i greatly admire the skill shown in some of the kitless pens.  However, that does not take away one bit of the satisfaction I find in assembling pens from kits.  I love my hobby and respect my fellow workers.  Result is I have lots of fun and see a great variety of art crafted by my fellow turners.


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## dogcatcher (Apr 2, 2012)

I think the kitlless actually started with people wanting to "push themselves to the limit".  They wanted to see how far they could go without using any kit components or as little as possible.  This lead to farther developments and some kept "pushing the limits".  

One day in the future, someone will post a fountain pen that is made entirely of their own making.  They will have mastered the nib, and everything.  The first maybe crude, but still functional.   And you can bet on it that it will be perfected by someone.

I think of it is more of an individual challenge than an economic one.  Sometimes it that "mad moment" that creates the new "horizon".


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## azamiryou (Apr 3, 2012)

beck3906 said:


> More and more posts are showinge kitless pens.  I haven't joined that club yet, but I do wonder if I'm being left behind if I don't.  Is this a passing fad like so many other things?  Or is the kitless move here to stay and I need to join to be competitive with sales?



It seems everyone is addressing your second, third, and fourth sentences. I'd like to say a word about your first:



> More and more posts are showing kitless pens.



I suspect that, pure and simple, this is a function of there being more to say about kitless pens. And for SOYP, people are often more excited to show off their kitless creations.

I don't think it represents any particular shift in the penturning world. In fact, if you look at the pen kit company catalogs, it's obvious that the kit pen hobby/industry is growing by leaps and bounds.


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