# Can someone tell me what's wrong



## jpford (Apr 1, 2017)

This pen was turned smooth as a baby's butt, then sanded with 150 thru 800 wave sandpaper, then micromesh up to 4000. It has a CA (Super T) finish, which was then wet polished with graduated grit pads. After that, it got acrylic scratch remover polish and THEN it got buffed on my polishing mandrel.

WHY does it have these scratches?? It hasn't been mishandled or carried around in a burlap bag, so I can only assume they were there at finishing. I didn't really notice them until I got it under the camera lights. 

Your learned opinions are requested...


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## TonyL (Apr 1, 2017)

They just appear to be simple (common) radial scratches. Darks colors are the least forgiving in terms of making scratches visible (which is why always use a loupe to inspect my finish). I think the "cure" is just continue experimenting with your sanding/finishing process. It simply looks like "incomplete" sanding/finishing. Through experimentation and inspection, you will find a process that produces a finish that you find satisfactory.

Enjoy the journey! 

PS. You can also search on "radial scratches" and get many good ideas to try.


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## Terredax (Apr 1, 2017)

Those are radial scratches from sanding on the lathe. I wouldn't start with 150 grit. 220 should be a good starting point.
After sanding while the blank is spinning, stop the lathe and sand lengthwise down the blank until all of the radial scratches are gone. The sanding dust is a good guide to show the scratches as you sand. Do this with each grit before going to a buff wheel.
That should help eliminate those pesky radial scratches.


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## The Falcons Quill (Apr 1, 2017)

Terredax said:


> Those are radial scratches fro sanding on the lathe. I wouldn't start with 150 grit. 220 should be a good starting point.
> After sanding while the blank is spinning, stop the lathe and sand lengthwise down the blank until all of the radial scratches are gone. The sanding dust is a good guide to show the scratches as you sand. Do this with each grit before going to a buff wheel.
> That should help eliminate those pesky radial scratches.



I would argue that it may bE residual from the 150. I usually start at 220 or 320. Since using carbide tools I have almost only been starting at 320.

Would also suggest if you are not already, I wipe the blank with a paper towel between grits as to not rub larger particles back into the blank while trying to go higher in grit.

And a question would be, are you wet sanding with micro mesh once the CA is applied


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## randyrls (Apr 1, 2017)

I concur with John;  Make sure you sand with the lathe off lengthwise for each grit.   Use MicroMesh wet at low speed (500 RPM) or so and don't press too hard..

Scratches will not be visible until you reach the polishing stage, and then will jump out at you!


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## Terredax (Apr 1, 2017)

randyrls said:


> I concur with John;  Make sure you sand with the lathe off lengthwise for each grit.   Use MicroMesh wet at low speed (500 RPM) or so and don't press too hard..
> 
> Scratches will not be visible until you reach the polishing stage, and then will jump out at you!



I use the micromesh a little differently than Randy. I run the lathe at around 2500-3000 rpm while, keeping the blank wet, and moving the micromesh back and forth the length of the blank with a light touch.

I use an old spray bottle that had hair product in it and wash it really well to evacuate the product residue so it doesn't contaminate the water.
I fill the bottle half full and add two drops of dish soap, then I shake the snot out of the bottle to mix it together, and finally fill the bottle to the top.

When I wet sand, I continually spritz the top of the blank. Doing this will create a puddle on the micromesh, against the blank. This helps keep the blank cool and clean and the dish soap lubricates to reduce the friction.

If there are any radial scratches left from the sanding, they should start becoming visible during the micromesh stage. With my old, tired eyes, I direct a light onto the blank and look across the surface of the blank, rather than directly down on the blank. The scratches are visible because they scatter the light, instead of reflecting it. So it's easier to see them at an angle where the light creates a shine line.


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## 1080Wayne (Apr 1, 2017)

Minority opinion . One external radial scratch about 1/8 inch below clip . Lots of radial marks from drilling the hole . Several lengthwise marks which appear to be centered over the tube , so could be from tube insertion and twisting to ensure good gluing , or could be from lengthwise sanding with coarsest grit .


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## mecompco (Apr 1, 2017)

Just wondering why you would apply CA to a simple acrylic blank? I don't like dry paper on acrylic, and don't even MM any longer except for Alumilite. If you go through the MM pads (wet!), stopping between grits to sand laterally and then remove the sludge, you will not have those scratches. A final polish with plastic polish or buff with Tripoli and White Diamond will finish the job.

In any even, never, ever, go to the next grit if there are any radial scratches left as they will not come out (been there, done that).

Regards,
Michael


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## leehljp (Apr 1, 2017)

I seen both long and radial. The radials are from not getting the course scratches out, maybe in the CA itself. The deep longitudinal are from the 150 in all probability.

My question would be - if it is as smooth as a baby's butt, why start with 150? That will only put scratches deep into it. That is WAY too low to start on something already smooth. I would imagine that if the long-ways scratches are a result of that - IF you sanded it long ways. The radials are probably from the same.


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## jpford (Apr 1, 2017)

Good questions, all. And, now having listened to you all, I know you're right about a lot of this. Yes, I always do a lateral sanding and I always wipe between grits; Yes, I always wet-sand with MM (and wipe off slurry between). These were pre-drilled/tubed blanks, so I can't speak to the drilling and barrel insertion. 

I started with low grit long ago when my turning sucked. It doesn't anymore, so there's no reason to start less than 220, probably 320 on acrylics. And, Michael, the only reason I used CA is because I have little experience with acrylics. It's what I always do, so...

I'm now wondering how much of these are in the CA and not on the acrylic. Might have to disassemble this and turn it tad to see if I can't learn from this. I'm usually diligent about sanding, but I've been working on getting faster. I guess I found max speed, huh? Actually, I'm pretty convinced now that it was starting at 150 which caused the problems. I just got a batch of new sandpaper pads as well, so there's that... My finish is usually a lot better than this, so I'll start at 320 and see how that goes.


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## Edgar (Apr 1, 2017)

No need to slow down the lathe - I'm with John (Teeredax) on that. I do all my turning, sanding & finishing for both wood & acrylic at 2500-3000. 

I wet sand acrylics with 400 then 600 abranet mesh then wet  mm from 1500 - 12000. I'll sand laterally with the abranet & the first 4 or 5 mm grits. No need to lateral sand with the higher grits. 

I use a lighted magnifier when I turn because it helps me see details better & it really helps with judging my finishes.


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## Woodchipper (Apr 1, 2017)

This has been an intersting and informative thread.  I have some acrylic blanks to turn and will go back and review it.


> I shake the snot out of the bottle


  Is that better than CA?  j/k


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## edstreet (Apr 1, 2017)

jpford said:


> This pen was turned smooth as a baby's butt, then sanded with 150 thru 800 wave sandpaper, then micromesh up to 4000. It has a CA (Super T) finish, which was then wet polished with graduated grit pads. After that, it got acrylic scratch remover polish and THEN it got buffed on my polishing mandrel.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





This is an application problem. Most likely due to failure of proper sanding.  Also excessive use of product selection (most of what is listed is not needed ) 

One thing that will help you greatly is get a sharpie and after each grit mark the entire surface then proceed with the finer grit, if you use something white and a black sharpie you will quickly see the failure points of your techniques.


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## jttheclockman (Apr 1, 2017)

I believe the problem lies under the CA. If you top coated the acrylic with CA, the CA has nothing to soak into like it does with wood. Those scratches are in the acrylic. Unless you polished out all scratches before top coating with CA. then you will never get them out unless you strip it back. The CA just magnifies it like a magnifing glass.  I believe if you stop coating acrylic with CA your problems will go away. Unless I misread something here that would be my guess.


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## jpford (Apr 2, 2017)

jttheclockman said:


> I believe the problem lies under the CA. If you top coated the acrylic with CA, the CA has nothing to soak into like it does with wood. Those scratches are in the acrylic. Unless you polished out all scratches before top coating with CA. then you will never get them out unless you strip it back. The CA just magnifies it like a magnifing glass.  I believe if you stop coating acrylic with CA your problems will go away. Unless I misread something here that would be my guess.



Done!


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## jpford (Apr 2, 2017)

edstreet said:


> One thing that will help you greatly is get a sharpie and after each grit mark the entire surface then proceed with the finer grit, if you use something white and a black sharpie you will quickly see the failure points of your techniques.



What a great suggestion. Never heard that before and now I can't wait to try it...


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## jpford (Apr 2, 2017)

Edgar said:


> No need to slow down the lathe - I'm with John (Teeredax) on that. I do all my turning, sanding & finishing for both wood & acrylic at 2500-3000.
> 
> I wet sand acrylics with 400 then 600 abranet mesh then wet  mm from 1500 - 12000. I'll sand laterally with the abranet & the first 4 or 5 mm grits. No need to lateral sand with the higher grits.
> 
> I use a lighted magnifier when I turn because it helps me see details better & it really helps with judging my finishes.



I'm not slowing down the lathe, but I have been trying some different methods, different acrylic polish pads, new sandpaper. I have a large, 8 inch 4x magnification lamp that extends over my lathe. Guess I should use it more for magnification than for light.


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## magpens (Apr 2, 2017)

There seem to be a lot of differing opinions, so here are mine.

I never sand with the lathe on (except if I am roughing WOOD down to size/shape which I rarely do anymore).

I try to get a very smooth surface with my lathe tools to reduce sanding requirement.

I always sand with the lathe off and I always sand lengthwise only.

I never sand with coarser than 240. (I believe your scratches are due to using 150).

Ed's suggestion of using a marker pen is a good one ... it works if the scratches are on the exposed surface and not on the underlying layer of material below the CA ( ... actually, in my experience, CA does a pretty good job of filling in any underlying scratches).

BTW, a matter of terminology ... "radial" is incorrect ... should be "circumferential" ... but I am not trying to be overly academic and I know what people mean.


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## edstreet (Apr 2, 2017)

CA can and will mask SOME scratches if you use it right.


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## edstreet (Apr 2, 2017)

Exposed layer yes the sharpie works wonders. See my lapping article on using that. The hidden layers can be ignored for the most part. Why ignore? Not much you can do about them other than sand it off and start over.  Sometimes that is not an option. Live and learn.


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## TurtleTom (Apr 2, 2017)

If you're not seeing it at the lathe, your lighting is inferior.  I use a 115v flood lamp directly over the work plus 10 100w lamps within a 5 foot radius (I have a tiny shop).   I've read many times that machinists (so that includes us) need the highest light output of any profession.


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## Wildman (Apr 3, 2017)

I have to wet my acrylic blanks and take out into the sunlight to check for scratches before starting, during wet sanding with micro mesh and before polishing.   I use cloth micro mesh, also add couple drops of dish washing soap to the water.   Have always used Hut’s Ultra Gloss Plastic polish, but there are other brands or auto plastic polish available too!  I stopped using any sandpaper after my second acrylic pen. 

Guess could invest in better lighting for my shop!


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## keithbyrd (Apr 3, 2017)

Good comments above.  I agree with most that it is the early sanding technique that got you into trouble.  When I finish turning I always start with 400 grit.  I sand at 500 rpm, turns ff the lathe and sand the length of the blank. Go to 1000 rpm and use 600 arrant, stop and sand the length of the blank.  Micro mesh with the first 2 pads (brown and green).  Based on what others have said about wet sanding I will have to modify my definition to damp sanding!.  I wet the pads and then use light pressure at full speed till I get a shine.    Repeat on the green pad.  Then I use Dr Kirks sanding polishes Red, White and blue cartons and finish with His ultra plastic polish.


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## leehljp (Apr 3, 2017)

TurtleTom said:


> If you're not seeing it at the lathe, your lighting is inferior.  I use a 115v flood lamp directly over the work plus 10 100w lamps within a 5 foot radius (I have a tiny shop).   I've read many times that machinists (so that includes us) need the highest light output of any profession.



Agreed on the lighting. Another thing about lighting, when high gloss finishes are needed, diffuse lighting fixtures are a hindrance to seeing scratches. Diffuse coverings on the lights will reflect in a multitude of directions on a glossy pen and prevent smooth reflections, hindering the notice of imperfections.

As a side note, and I haven't figured this out yet. I know the reason for sanding "with the grain" on flat wood and slow turning bowls, but when sanding a pen blank at 600 - 800 SP or higher, I have never sanded WITH the grain in these cases. I turn the lathe on slow as it will go and sand. I guess, because I do lots of segments with brass, I do not sand horizontally. Horizontal sanding puts brass sanding dust on the wood.

Below is a pen from way back 11 years ago. Horizontal sanding would smear brass on both segments and would show up especially on the ebony. That was before I learned to turn smooth without using SP. 

http://www.penturners.org/photos/images/940/1_Best_pen.jpg


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## magpens (Apr 3, 2017)

Hank, what wood at the center ... it is beautiful !!!!!



> Below is a pen from way back 11 years ago. Horizontal sanding would  smear brass on both segments and would show up especially on the ebony.  That was before I learned to turn smooth without using SP.
> 
> http://www.penturners.org/photos/ima...1_Best_pen.jpg


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## leehljp (Apr 3, 2017)

magpens said:


> Hank, what wood at the center ... it is beautiful !!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I am 99.9% sure that was Amboyna. It is a little darker red than most Amboyna that I have had or have now, but I am sure it was Amboyna.


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## magpens (Apr 3, 2017)

Thought so ... thanks !


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## TurtleTom (Apr 3, 2017)

leehljp said:


> TurtleTom said:
> 
> 
> > If you're not seeing it at the lathe, your lighting is inferior.  I use a 115v flood lamp directly over the work plus 10 100w lamps within a 5 foot radius (I have a tiny shop).   I've read many times that machinists (so that includes us) need the highest light output of any profession.
> ...



Having worked as a production machinist I learned a few things about sanding.  I always sand at the same high speed that I cut, but, the drawback to fast sanding is heating the paper which ruins it. I only use 1" cloth backed abrasives till I get to 600, above that I can't find any.  I cut a 3' length and saw it back and forth on the part which prevents heat build up and ruining the part, 5 seconds and you're done with that strip.  Rarely I will get some scratches around the part and I have to go start all over sanding lengthwise.  I keep the Micro Mesh cool with Lemon oil, same fast speeds.  No problems, I'll get 8 or 10 pens from 1 3' emery piece. I've been using the same Micro Mesh well over a year and a half.


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## jpford (Apr 4, 2017)

TurtleTom said:


> If you're not seeing it at the lathe, your lighting is inferior.  I use a 115v flood lamp directly over the work plus 10 100w lamps within a 5 foot radius (I have a tiny shop).   I've read many times that machinists (so that includes us) need the highest light output of any profession.



That, or my eyes are just bad...:redface:


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## jpford (Apr 4, 2017)

Just an update. I've started sanding minimally now, beginning at 400, 600, 800 and then on to mm pads. Funny thing is, I had a very decent CA finish down pat at one point and started experimenting with new sandpaper, new mm pads. 100% Acrylics are new to me, so still climbing that learning ladder. My turning has improved a lot this past year, so I'm minimal sanding is needed. Did an acrylic this morning and it came out nice; 400,600,800 gtit sandpaper,  then 9-pad micromesh (wet), then a little scratch remover, then buff on the polish wheel. Not 100% where I want it, but moving in the right  direction now. Thanks, everyone for the help and advice!!!


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## TurtleTom (Apr 4, 2017)

That, or my eyes are just bad...:redface:[/QUOTE]

I hate it when that happens.  I really like the magnifying bifocal safety glasses from Woodcraft.  Saves my eyes both ways.


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## leehljp (Apr 4, 2017)

jpford said:


> . . . Funny thing is, I had a very decent CA finish down pat at one point and started experimenting with new sandpaper, new mm pads. 100% Acrylics are new to me, so still climbing that learning ladder. . . . Thanks, everyone for the help and advice!!!



Just a note, you are not the only one to have the finish down pat and then learn that it doesn't apply across the board with changes of different kinds.

I had to learn different techniques to use CA at different temps - 50° vs 90° required different curing times, and humidity swings 50% vs 95% with higher humidity often making white spots show up that didn't happen at warmer temps and lower humidity.


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## edstreet (Apr 4, 2017)

This is why I did all the research into CA. There are a good many things that pen tuners does not take into account when doing a CA finish. After all the research I did I came to the conclusion that using a temperature insensitive and surface insensitive CA that was odorless and flexible was by far hands down superior in most all regards.   Overall you need to work with the properties of the CA and they are not all the same. 

FYI the article is in my tag line on the CA info.


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## jpford (Apr 10, 2017)

*following up*

Just a quick follow up. I think I'm back on track now, thanks to the helpful advice and suggestions here. I bought some new paper micro mesh (from Scientific Instrument Services - great source) and started a new sanding routine with a lighter touch, shorter sanding intervals, and limiting my initial sanding to 400, 600, 800, and following that with wet MM from 1500 - 12000. It is working beautifully for both acrylics and woods. I also started using the dish soap in my water (great tip!). Here are a couple of pics. Both are woods, but the acrylic is coming out just as nice. My grateful admiration to all who assisted.


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## Jim15 (Apr 10, 2017)

Great looking pen.


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## magpens (Apr 10, 2017)

Those pens look beautiful, Joel .... congratulations !!! . What wood did you use, please ?


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## leehljp (Apr 10, 2017)

Beautiful work. A great finish draws the eye to the pen, and that is a beautiful pen. Great Finish!


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## jpford (Apr 11, 2017)

magpens said:


> Those pens look beautiful, Joel .... congratulations !!! . What wood did you use, please ?



thank you very much. The first pen is a Broadwell Art Deco dressed in a  flame box elder blank by Randy McBurney at Local Turning Woods. The other is a satin cigar wearing a flame elder burl from woodturningz.com. (it is actually propped on another blank of the flame box elder from Randy McBurney)

I was quite pleased with both of them.


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## Skie_M (Apr 11, 2017)

*Going all the way back to OP*






OK ... Everybody pointed out the radial scratches that you can see along the centerline of the pen, highlighted by the light source.  I think the OP was also concerned about these deeper scratches that are in the barrels and appear to be going along the grain of the blank.


To properly sand out the radial scratches, you sand along the length of the barrels with the lathe turned off, while rotating the barrels by hand.  You have to "cut through" the ridges of the radial lines without cutting down through the valleys, which would make for scratches that may not be removed by the next grit down.

Always clean off the blank (paper towel - a wet one in the case of acrylics) between grit changes to ensure that the previous larger grit doesn't migrate to the new sanding pad or paper and cause large scratches that won't be removed.

When sanding to achieve a smooth and uniform surface, use a piece that is a little long ... around 1.5 - 2 inches.  Grip it on either end and change the angle constantly as you hold it against your work ... it doesn't have to be a lot of pressure, just constant light pressure works.  Keep moving the paper around and changing the angle, as well as sawing it back and forth to present a cleaner section of the sandpaper to the work for best effect.  You"ll do this the longest with the larger grit sizes, to get the final size you are wanting to achieve and remove all tool marks.  I would suggest 120 grit abranet or 220 grit paper as a minimum sanding level.

Once all the tool marks are gone and you have achieved the profile you wish to maintain, progress up the stages in grit sizes, cleaning the blank in between with whatever you prefer to use ... (I keep an old toothbrush near the lathe, along with paper towels and a little squirt bottle of water too).  Once you have achieved a good level of surface quality (I take woods up to 1200 grit, acrylics I go up through micromesh to 12000 and then polish - there's no need for a CA finish on pure acrylics), examine the surface in detail to make certain that there is nothing you don't want to see in the final product.

Once the examination is completed, clean the blank with acetone or denatured alcohol (DNA)  (Of course - don't use acetone on acrylics ... duh!) and progress to your finish stage ... I use BLO + CA for my first coat, but I still like the Minwax Stain'n'Seal + CA as well - it's just harder to keep it from drying out.  Then you can apply however many coats you desire for protection before you progress to wet-sanding final finishing stage.  

You should start with 1000 grit or so, sanding wet, to level out the CA to a very fine light haze ... there should be NO shiny spots after cleaning the barrels with DNA.  If you see a shiny spot, you missed that spot (it"s lower than it's surroundings) ... keep sanding a bit more to make it all uniformly even.  Don't forget to sand laterally (along the length of the blank) with the lathe turned off!  Also make certain you have no dull spots, where you can't see any glint of the CA on the wood.  This means that you've sanded through that spot and you will need to re-finish and start again.

After you have the 1000 grit stage completed, progress quickly up the micromesh stages (at this point, sanding with each grit should take under 15 seconds) using a liberal amount of water ... add a drop or two of dish soap if you like, the suds can help remove debris from the barrels without scratching.  Don't forget to sand laterally between grits, here, and also clean the barrel between each grit!

Once you"ve finished with the last micromesh pad, progress to the plastic polish.  I use Meguair's Plast-X ... they also make One-Step, and it's pretty much the exact same product.  You just happen to get half as much for a 40% higher price, buying the One-Step.  I top it off with a coat of Turtle Wax Hard Surface Wax - this helps repel water and oils from the barrel surface, like from fingerprints...

If, after all of that, I still see very fine haze or scratch marks on the surface, I then take it to my buffing wheels, which I have charged with more Plast-X and Turtle Wax.



Now ... to address the main issue I see with the picture at the very top.  You applied a CA finish to an Acrylic blank, which was not only not necessary, but quite likely trapped scratches beneath the finish coat which cannot ever be removed.  I would go back and remove the CA to finish sand the blank all the way up through micromesh and polish it without the CA finish, but at this point you may be under the bushings ....  The only way to fix it from that point would be to apply the CA over the final polished surface to build it back up, and then sand and polish it again.


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