# Deft Friction



## doeringr (May 29, 2007)

Hello all,
Haven't posted much but am grateful for the immense info on the site.
Here's my question...
I love Deft high gloss and any pens that I have used it on I've usually used the spray and wait a week method before polish and assembly.  That's great and all, but I'm continuously wondering about Deft's friction capabilities straight from the can.

What I'm wondering is, after final sanding, could I apply Deft high gloss as I would a regular friction polish?  It would seem to me that the heat generated would not only cure the laquer faster, but also help it to flow to an even coat as well as dry faster to apply more coats quicker.

I guess what I'm looking for is what everyone else is looking for----a quicker high gloss finish that can come off the lathe in 5 minutes.  I've done CA finishes before, with varied results, and I'm highly sensitive to the fumes.  Deft seems not to affect me as much, and as mentioned earlier, I really love the finish it provides.  let me know if you have any experience.  Thanks.[:I]


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## exoticwo (May 29, 2007)

Doeringer,
 I have not tried the method you are asking about. There are wipe on Poly's, Minwax comes to mind, that I have seen work as you are talking about. Never heard of anyone trying the spray on and friction combo you seem to be asking about.
 About the best way to find this answer is to turn a solid piece, small spindle, and try it out. If this works perhaps you could give a report back to this forum.


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## doeringr (May 29, 2007)

Just seems to me that Deft would be a great candidate for a friction finish.  I'd love to hear more from anyone who has tried it.

I would guess you could also add a little thinner to it to give it a looser consistency.  Don't know.


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## richstick1 (May 29, 2007)

I've not tried it - but I spoke to a well respected pen guy here about what type of finish he uses, and he does exactly what you described.  Deft lacquer applied like a friction finish.  I'd like to try it, but just have not done it yet.  Then again, I've only made 4 pens


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## grumps (May 29, 2007)

I use Deft on most of the pens and stoppers that I make partly because I can't seem to get a consistant finish with CA and partly because I've use Deft for years as a normal wood finish.  I like it because it holds up very well to wear and tear.

When applying Deft on the lathe, the shine isn't as glossy as it would be on a piece of furniture but a little buffing does wonders!  I use Deft sanding sealer; sand to a smooth surface with MM; apply 2 or 3 coats of gloss Deft from the can with a paper towel.  I let the work dry a few minutes between each coat with the lathe running.  Also, I kinda rub my fingers over the work to "smooth it out".  Finally, if there's any excess finish in the coves and bevels (if there are any) I'll use the edge of a paper towel to skim it out. Then, with the lathe running,  0000-steel wool to level the bumps and off to the buffing wheels.  Total finish time:  maybe 10 to 15 minutes at the most.

I've tried the gloss and semi-gloss spary cans of Deft but applying it by hand seems to be the best bet for me. Even though they are sprayed-on the finish seems "too thick" for my tastes.


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## doeringr (May 29, 2007)

I think I'm going to pick up a can on my way home from the office today and see if I can get some to work this evening.  Any other input on this thread would be helpful!  Thanks!


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## MesquiteMan (May 29, 2007)

Yes, you can do a friction finish with lacquer and it works fairly well.  I have also used epoxy as a friction polish and it works well.


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## its_virgil (May 29, 2007)

Give it a try and report back. I've not tried it but my thoughts are that lacquer works best used as it is intended, as do most finishes. But, PSI has a lacquer based friction polish that has shown up on their website just recently(at least I've not seen it previously): http://www.pennstateind.com/store/pkfrict2.html  I seldom order from PSI but next time I do I'll try it.
do a good turn daily!
Don

PS: You can trust what Curtis reports, so go for it.




> _Originally posted by doeringr_
> <br />Hello all,
> Haven't posted much but am grateful for the immense info on the site.
> Here's my question...
> ...


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## arioux (May 29, 2007)

Hi,

All my pens are finish with lacquer as a friction finish.
Best result are obtain with a variable speed lathe. 

Fold a paper towel about 1 inch large. 
Wet one end in lacquer.
Apply to the blank at the lowest speed, moving sideways back and forth with some pressure, not too slow because it will start to dry pretty fast.  Lacquer don't seem to generate much heat.
Crank up speed gradually, moving your towel slowly toward the part with no lacquer on, moving back and forth faster.
Keep the lathe at full speed few second and buff with the dry part of the towel by going back and forth faster.  At this point don't leave the towel at the same place too long or you might have wrinkle.  Move it really fast, with good pressure, again not that much heat, this will smooth the finish.
Thicker lacquer can be reduce with tinner but not too much.

Wait 30 min. ready for an other coat.
4 or 5 application will give you a very shiny and durable finish.

Please make sure you have good ventilation.

Will try to take some photo of the process, this might help.

Meanwhile, not the better shot (i,'m a turner, not a photographer []but it will give you an idea of the shining finish.






<br />





<br />


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## doeringr (May 30, 2007)

Well, I picked up some Deft semi-gloss last night and tried it on a couple of spare blanks...
The procedure was as follows...

Sand to 1500
Wipe down with lacquer thinner
Wipe on Deft and leave for a couple of minutes
With a piece of folded Viva in each hand, one with some more Deft on it, I alternated applying the deft with some pressure and then buffing out with the clean paper towel.  I think Deft gives of a very distinct smell when it is cured---kind of a soapy smell---a little different than the way Deft normally smells.  Did this about 10 times without any break in between excpet to wait for the distinct smell.

The result was a thin build-up of the semi-gloss.  I've only ever used gloss to I was a little disappointed in the end result.  I buffed it out with PPP sticks and that gave me the shine I was after.

I'm thinking that letting the first wipe on coat a full thrity minutes before I start the friction application would result in a little bit more coverage in the end.

I'll be able to post some pics soon.  My kids decided the digital camera was their new plaything and now it is in disrepair.

Overall, I'm pleased with the first attempt.  I've got to find something other than CA since I've been dealing with three days of headaches since I last used it as a finish.


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## Blind_Squirrel (May 30, 2007)

What is the difference between this and the "hand rubbed" method others speak of?


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## arioux (May 30, 2007)

Hi Scott,

Mabe this article from Russ Fairfield can give you some answer.

http://www.woodcentral.com/russ/finish10.shtml


Alfred


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## RussFairfield (May 30, 2007)

If it ain't broke, why are you trying to fix it.

Yes, Deft makes an acceptable friction polish (note the use of the word "acceptable"). Mylands makes a commercial nitro-cellulose friction polish product or we can make our own with 1-part Deft, up to 1-part thinner, and 1-part Boiled Linseed Oil. However, Deft is a more durable finish, and usually has better clarity and gloss, when it is dipped, sprayed, or rubbed on.

The reason is what Don Ward said, ALL finishes work best when they are used in their purest form, and as intended. Deft is no different. The problem with friction polishes is the presence of oil and wax that are added to make them easier to use, and specifically to use when the wood is spinning in the lathe. The problem is that oils and waxes are contaminants in the finish and the result will be softer than it would have been without them, and there might also be other problems with gloss, clarity, etc. It very difficult to use a friction polish without their becoming some part of the final finish.

In other words, the friction polish is a sure way to sacrifice the finish for our desire for speed and a short term result.


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## gerryr (May 30, 2007)

When I first started making pens, I wanted an instantaneous high gloss finish.  I tried friction polish and discovered that lasted about 5 minutes.  I then used Deft spray, applying 4-5 coats and then buffing immediately.  I discovered I wasn't letting the lacquer cure, needed to wait a week.  I then switched to CA but even that needs to cure before buffing.  Now, about 2-1/2 years later, I'm back to lacquer for about 3/4 of my wood pens and CA for the rest.  What I've learned is that you absolutely cannot rush the finish.  After the final coat of finish, I but the barrels on wooden pegs and forget them for several days, then I do the final sanding and buffing.

Based on my own experience and reading a lot of posts from new penturners over the last couple years, it seems to be very common for new people to want to rush the finish so they can assemble the pen and see how it all looks.  Don't regard that as a "put-down," simply an observation on my part.


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## jtate (May 30, 2007)

Am I missing some important point?  When I read the instructions on the can of Deft Lacquer, it says put it on and let it alone.  Don't do anything to it.  Just let it do its thing.  Then put more on.  That's what I'm doing with the dipping method and it's working for me.  

Seems to me that the whole point of buffing is to get a microscopically smooth surface.  I would think that the molecules of the lacquer would do a better job of settling themselves into a smooth pattern than we could ever do by rubbing them with some material or rubbing some other substance into them.  

(My method is straight off this website - put parts and bushings on threaded rod, dip in lacquer, stand rod in waste block for two hours, dip again, let it stand two hours, dip again, let it stand two hours. Kind of like lather, rinse, repeat. Let it cure overnight.  Scribe the line between bushing and pen part with a pocket knife. Remove bushings.  Assemble pen.)


If there's a reason why I ought not be finishing my pens by dipping them in lacquer, please someone let me know.  I'm not seeing a downside (other than not being able to put a pen together within a few minutes after it's been turned).  I've tried CA with some remarkably good success and some terrible failures.  I like lacquer better.  It smells better too!


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## jtate (May 30, 2007)

Oh, you asked about the heat produced from friction, when using Deft Lacquer as a friction polish.  The one time I did try sanding and micromeshing between lacquer applications the heat of the friction was NOT a good thing.  My efforts to get it even smoother were the reasons that James Jenkins Pen in the Hat pen was later than it should have been.  I ended up having to sand away the goopy balls and start over. 

Here's the result with just plain old dipping.






Heat doesn't seem to cure lacquer, time does.  

I think the thing that heat helps in the friction polish things is that it makes the wax in the product melt which causes the finishing agents (the shellac in Mylands, for instance) spread evenly over the surface as they flow in the molten wax.  I don't think the process of causing the molecules of the finishing agent to adhere to one another is aided in the least by heat.  

But that's my opinion.  And opinions are like elbows, nearly everybody's got a couple.

Julia


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## gerryr (May 30, 2007)

Julia,
I don't believe you're doing anything wrong or missing anything.  As Don stated, a finish usually works better when applied as the manufacturer intended.  If you're satisfied with the results and the finish holds up, nothing else matters.  You can use esoteric materials for a finish or you can apply ordinary finishes in esoteric methods the manufacturer never intended, but what counts is how does it look and how does it hold up over time.


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## RussFairfield (May 30, 2007)

The problem with lacquer is the solvents that have to evaporate. There is no polymerization, no catalytic reaction, and no other chemical reaction. It was to dry by the evaporation of the solvents, and leaving whatever solids left on the surface of the wood. Shellac is the same, only the solvents are different. As long as the surface has an odor, they have not all evaporated. The problem is that as the surface dries, it seals in the solvents under the surface and it takes them longer to dry. And the thicker the film of lacquer the longer it takes to totally dry.

We can use heat, either from a gun or friction, to evaporate the solvents faster. My experience has been that the heat only seals the surface faster, so that more solvents are trapped under it, and it takes longer for those to evaporate than if I had done nothing.

What we do depends on what is good enough to handle. A lacquer like Deft will have somewhere about 75-80% of the solvents evaporated in an hour, and that is sufficient for a recoat. It's that other 20% that can take some time. 95% of the solvents will have evaporated in a week, but it can take up to a year to reach 100% evaporation and full hardness of the surface film.

Not all of us are able to get a perfect dip or spray lacquer finish every time. We have the ocassional run, sag, dimple, orange peel, overspray, fisheye, stray gnat, finger print from testing, or whatever, and sometimes all of the above at the same time. SO, we have to sand the finish to smooth again and polish it back to a high gloss. One way to get the gloss again is with a soft buffing wheel. Buffing is an agressive polishing method, even with soft wheels and fine abrasives, that requires a lot more than 80% of the solvents being evaporated, and that means waiting. Those who buff say to wait a week for the 95% because that is close enough. Yes, you can buff, polish, or otherwise assemble the pen immediately, but the surface will be softer and the risk of damage far less if we all waited a couple days to a week before handling and polishing a lacquer pen. Besides that, the dryer the lacquer, the higher the shine we can put on it.


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## doeringr (May 30, 2007)

Okeedokee folks.  I get the drift.  I'm a newbie just trying some things out.  Managed to get an incredible finish on a mahogany slimline this afternoon by using the friction method.  Filled all the grain and gave me a clean, smooth, blemish free finish.  The pen is assembled and looks just as good as it did on the mandrel.
Maybe it won't work everytime---but that's also been my experience with other finishes.

Thanks for all of the constructive input I've received.  I'll keep everythig in mind.


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