# CA cracking



## Philip E (Sep 28, 2015)

I wasn't sure if I should start a new thread with this question but I didn't see anything in previous posts about it so here it is.  I have had several ca finished pens crack like a glass windshield.  I managed to get a close up pic of what I am talking about.  It usually occurs several days after I finish the pen and it is happening to a lot of them, not all mind you but many and I am not doing anything different to any of them and the woods are local commons woods like maple, walnut, box elder, osage orange etc.  Why is this happening, any ideas?


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## jttheclockman (Sep 28, 2015)

Hello

You need to give us a little more details. What CA are you using??? How many coats and what is your method of applying???  What are the conditions that you work in??  Is it humid, cold, hot???  Do you use accelerator and if so what brand??? Do you wipe the blank down after you turned it with anything???  Believe it or not these questions will help narrow things down. You say this is something new. Did you make any changes in your materials, sequence of finishing or anything else??? Do you know if the blanks are dry??

As an electrician I always would ask the customer what was the last thing you did before the problem occurred and 9 out of 10 times it leads me right to the problem.

Without having the above info it looks like the CA is either bad or it is drying too fast and not curing. If the wood has moisture in it that does not play well with CA. As you can see you are not alone with this problem. If you do a search you will find many more threads about this. here is a few that might interest you.


http://www.penturners.org/forum/f28/stickfast-ca-finish-crazing-carckleing-133232/


http://www.penturners.org/forum/f28/ca-finish-cracking-121339/


http://www.penturners.org/forum/f28/devestated-what-happened-here-117104/


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## alphageek (Sep 28, 2015)

There is many possible reasons for it.  There is one member that will likely come with long explanations and/or try to tell you that you need to buy one specific CA.

I recommend you look at other methods of applying the CA and see how yours differs.  I personally use the CA/BLO method and have never seems this happen to my pens.   That being said, there is dozens of variations of methods that people have been successful with, with every brand of CA.

It's all about finding what works for you!


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## wyone (Sep 28, 2015)

I had to laugh at John as I am an electrician as well, and the start of good troubleshooting is always asking the right questions to start with.  I totally concur with his methods of finding the issue.


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## Skie_M (Sep 28, 2015)

At first glance, I'ld say it might be due to either the pen barrel drying out and shrinking or gaining moisture and expanding...

Is this type of thing also happening to wood that was stabilized as well?



Also, as an electrician, I really have to say .... 9 times out of 10, the problem was that the customer had no idea what they were doing and screwed up...  ie, human error.

I've lost count of how many times I've had to re-install Windows on my uncle's computer because he ran out of space for his graphics files and figured he doesn't need this stupid "windows" directory that he never uses.... and then the computer doesn't want to work anymore.


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## Philip E (Sep 28, 2015)

First I guess I should apologize for making another thread about this subject, I did a search but I guess I didn't do a proper search, did not realize there was already so much data on this subject already but to answer a few of the questions, I don't rightly know how old the CA is but I guess it is getting a bit old.  It is Stickfast brand, but it is a bit older.  I have a fresh unopened bottle I got not too long ago, I'll try it later and see what happens.  I usually put on about 11-12 coats all thin.  Sometimes I use the accelerator sometimes not.  As for the blanks most of them are several year old maple or walnut so I am pretty sure they are dry.  Temps have been in the mid 70's to upper 80's not very humid.


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## Ted iin Michigan (Sep 28, 2015)

Philip - I had the identical result happen a while back. Tried a number of remedies but it disappeared when I got "fresh" CA so I believe (strongly) that either CA has a shelf life or that there are environmental factors that will, over time, degrade the CA to create that result. Perhaps things like humidity, temperature, etc. My issues began with CA that was about 9 months to a year old and the top had "crusted" up so ambient air & humidity might have gotten to it. The bottle was less than half full.

Regardless, I strongly urge you to hit your local supplier and pick up a new bottle and give it a try. I use StickFast thin for the most part. Some folk prefer other brands but it's what I can buy locally. 

One other thing: lately I have been trying to allow the CA to cure fully overnight before I sand & polish. Seems to be effective for me - but that would probably not have any effect on the cracking we've experienced. Good luck. Report back when you get results.

Oops! Looks like you posted while I was writing. Bet you have better results now.


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## alphageek (Sep 28, 2015)

Philip E said:


> ...  and I am not doing anything different to any of them ...



More likely is that you just don't know WHAT is different... There is SOO many variables, its nearly impossible to track down the one that is causing grief.



Philip E said:


> First I guess I should apologize for making another thread about this subject...



Never worry about another thread :biggrin:  Its the whole point of the place!!!  Without threads (even "repeats") this place would get dull!

I know a few will say search, but sometimes its overwhelming to find what you're looking for.. and by asking, you'll get some old and some new answers!


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## keithbyrd (Sep 28, 2015)

I have had that happen a few times as well.  I believe the problem for me was too many coats and not enough cure time between coats.  I changed my methods - less coats and simplified the sanding and polishing to eliminate the possibility of heat build up and found it faster and the finish is better and haven't had one crack yet!


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## edstreet (Sep 28, 2015)

I have posted a number of times what happens and why on this very subject. It's not rocket science  nor black magic. It's also not complex factors.


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## bobleibo (Sep 28, 2015)

edstreet said:


> I have posted a number of times what happens and why on this very subject. It's not rocket science  nor black magic. It's also not complex factors.



Ed 
It's crap answers like yours that turn people off! If you can't give the man a respectful reply or point him in the right direction then hit the "next key". It's not rocket science nor black magic! He asked a legitimate question which many have answered, he doesn't need your BS! 
Yeah, I'm fed up with answers like this! 

Phillip (and anyone else)
Ask all the questions you want....most of us are happy to try and help
Bob


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## CREID (Sep 28, 2015)

bobleibo said:


> edstreet said:
> 
> 
> > I have posted a number of times what happens and why on this very subject. It's not rocket science  nor black magic. It's also not complex factors.
> ...


 Aren't we all.


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## magier412 (Sep 28, 2015)

CA glue does have a shelf life...I would start with a new bottle and see if the problem persists.

And for the record...in my book, there's rarely such a thing as a stupid question (there are, however stupid answers that serve no good purpose IMO).  Please ask away and don't feel bad or awkward about doing so.  

Most of the people here are awesome and very willing to help!


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## edstreet (Sep 28, 2015)

bobleibo said:


> edstreet said:
> 
> 
> > I have posted a number of times what happens and why on this very subject. It's not rocket science  nor black magic. It's also not complex factors.
> ...



I did provide the person several good detailed answers.

post #2 of this thread has 3 (THREE) links provided.  If you READ those links you will see the info that I have provided to the public time after time again.  However, for those who have not read and still want to get mad at me for whatever reason I will share those things here.





edstreet said:


> hornet406 said:
> 
> 
> > I am also having problems with cracking of my finish.  I am told by my suppliers that StickFast finishing system CA has a bad batch out there and this is a nationwide problem.  However, they are not specifying if it is in the thin, medium, or accelerator categories or all the above. I am not sure though if I believe this as it is not happening to everyone using this system. I have also exchanged all my Stickfast Finish items with brand new lot numbered items and yesterday turned 3 pens.  Still have the same issue, but only on 2 of the 3. All the same wood type and environment conditions.  Shop is heated and maintains about 68 degrees. I am at a loss for the cause of this.
> ...






edstreet said:


> What is really going on is this.
> 
> 
> The inside next to the blank is undergoing a SLOW cure.
> ...






edstreet said:


> CA is polymerized by a PH shift. All CA on the market has a weak acid that keeps it in liquid form. When the PH balance shifts towards neutral it causes the polymerization to begin, the more rapid the shift the hotter the process is and the more brittle the end result is.
> 
> Surface insensitive types typically have more acid in them so it takes more of a PH shift to set them off.  This can negate the surface conditions, the humidity in the air etc.
> 
> ...







edstreet said:


> To get completely out of the problem arena you have to go into the 'light cured' realm of glues.  Basically it's CA but it is cured via UV light, i.e. black light.  The cost factor grossly goes up on these types as they are fairly new to the market and costly to make.
> 
> Aside from that I think the rule of thumb would be the more additives in the CA the higher the surface insensitive you get.  Problem is not even the MSDS will list 100% of the ingredients used and many of the items are left out entirely.



I will even throw in a freebe for everyone here to.



edstreet said:


> Lets talk about cracks for a moment.
> 
> Cracks can be either active or passive.
> 
> ...


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## KenV (Sep 28, 2015)

Philip --   I am going to run a bit long but think there may be some info to be restated that might add clarity -   I ran into a thread on CA storage and a turner there had a good summary --

Terminology --  part of the issue is that we talk about CA glues as if it is generic an all the same.   That is more like talking about Autos as being all the same.   While CA is a generic label in a similar manner to Auto, there are differences -- lots of differences.

CA is a product from post WW II  --  it has been in use for about 65 years (more or less) an it has changed over time.   Specific formulations have been developed for special uses.  It is made domestically and is imported.  Pricing is widely varied and the physical properties of different CA products have been refined.   Much of this is not clearly documented and there are lots of folk tales to add to the puddle of glue on the floor.

Different formulations --  each vendor makes its own formulation to the specifications it sees needed for the markets it serves.   I assure you that the CA glues used in the Emergency Room is different in a number of aspects from what you get at the Harbor Freight Store.  There  are also different formulations for accelerators.   And the Manufacturers do change the formations from time to time.

Ken Rule 1  -- All CA glue is not the same and does not act or react the same.

Corollary to Rule 1 -- Accelerators are different too and different accelerators act differently with different glues.

Ken Rule 2  -  While CA glues tend to set quickly, the reactions continue for some time afterwards .  This produced "off gassing" and can cause reactions to pen parts in unventilated storage conditions.

Corollary to rule 2  CA reacts differently to different materials and environmental conditions.

Be pretty sure you have a glue that will give you the performance you want --   I have a CA glue which was developed for the mortuary trade in putting pieces of the deceased back together.  It is very "sticky" and will glue things to high density polyethlene plastics that are very very difficult to glue.  

Quote from John Lucas  -- a turner from Tennessee  --  John has among his specialty products hand mirrors make with CA glue and glue blocks for mounting blanks.

"There is definitely a difference in CA glues. I used other brands than what our club buys and the bond can be more brittle of(sic) less brittle when i use accelerator(sic). I also think some brands last a lot longer than others. Being in Tennessee with high temps and high humidity is probably part of the problem. I use the brittle CA/Accelorator(sic) bond to do my hand mirrors and even the brands of Accelorator(sic) will change how brittle the bond is. Never done any definitive tests but when you do this as often as I do with the wasteblock(sic) and CA glue up method you get a pretty good feel for what is happening. "


Where does this come together --  the kind of cracking on the pen is typical of brittle materials breaking.   CA has earned a reputation of being brittle in use with glue blocks and causing problems.   It also has caused concerns about some segmented turnings in collections being glued together with brittle glues or glues that appear to becoming more brittle with time.

So -- John T was getting on track with the need to be specific about the brands of glue and brands of accelerator and the technique -    And Ed was correct that there is a lot of information around, but it is not well displayed or gets obfuscated in the manner it is presented.   Just wish Ed had a better style of communicating information.

And as we have these failure and learning from them discussions, perhaps we can accumulate more specifics and start to see more patterns and seen them broadly.  



Hope this helps


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## CREID (Sep 28, 2015)

KenV said:


> Philip --   I am going to run a bit long but think there may be some info to be restated that might add clarity -   I ran into a thread on CA storage and a turner there had a good summary --
> 
> Terminology --  part of the issue is that we talk about CA glues as if it is generic an all the same.   That is more like talking about Autos as being all the same.   While CA is a generic label in a similar manner to Auto, there are differences -- lots of differences.
> 
> ...


 
I hope this don't sound too weird, I agree by the way there is a difference. But I used to have a favorite pair of sandals and every now and then I would have a blowout. I would super glue them back together with stick fast CA. I had bought some, I believe it was Gorilla Glue CA and used it once to repair my sandals. The Stick Fast always worked great and the Gorilla wouldn't even stick. So there is definitely a difference in the CA"s

Just my 2 1/2 cents

Curt


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## mbroberg (Sep 29, 2015)

edstreet said:


> I have posted a number of times what happens and why on this very subject. It's not rocket science  nor black magic. It's also not complex factors.



There is nothing in this response that is of any value to anyone.  Just a condescending insult.  John provided links to previous posts in attempt to actually help the OP.  That you happen to have posted responses in those previous threads does not equate to you providing this op anything. You Ed, provided nothing to this poster other than an insult for having the audacity to ask a question that you believe should not have to have been asked.  Maybe, someday, you will get a clue, learn some basic common courtesy or better yet, figure out how to appropriately interact with others on the forum.  It's not rocket science or black magic but it certainly eludes you.


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## jttheclockman (Sep 29, 2015)

Philip E said:


> First I guess I should apologize for making another thread about this subject, I did a search but I guess I didn't do a proper search, did not realize there was already so much data on this subject already but to answer a few of the questions, I don't rightly know how old the CA is but I guess it is getting a bit old.  It is Stickfast brand, but it is a bit older.  I have a fresh unopened bottle I got not too long ago, I'll try it later and see what happens.  I usually put on about 11-12 coats all thin.  Sometimes I use the accelerator sometimes not.  As for the blanks most of them are several year old maple or walnut so I am pretty sure they are dry.  Temps have been in the mid 70's to upper 80's not very humid.



Hello again Philip

As you see there are some who care to help you and would like to get you on the right path. Yes this question gets asked many times but sometimes not all the info is provided to the asker because it is redundant. This is the only reason I try to be diplomatic about the response of doing a search. Many times the complete picture appears but over a course of different threads. No fault to the person asking or the people answering. It just that way. 

Anyway I went back to read your response to me and was somewhat taken back by one of your responses. Is this the root of your problem, maybe but maybe not. I highlighted in red. When you do a finish no matter how many coats you use, it is a good idea to use fresh CA and if using accelorator that it matches the brand of CA. Mix and match does not always work. But to take it a step further, I suggest you never use accelorator sometimes and then not in the same finishing of a pen. What this does is cause the CA to cure at different rates creating underlying problems. I never use it and never had that problem but I do use a differnt CA (hot stuff).

OK good luck and let us know how things work out for you.


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## edstreet (Sep 29, 2015)

mbroberg said:


> There is nothing in this response that is of any value to anyone.  Just a condescending insult.  John provided links to previous posts in attempt to actually help the OP.  That you happen to have posted responses in those previous threads does not equate to you providing this op anything. You Ed, provided nothing to this poster other than an insult for having the audacity to ask a question that you believe should not have to have been asked.  Maybe, someday, you will get a clue, learn some basic common courtesy or better yet, figure out how to appropriately interact with others on the forum.  It's not rocket science or black magic but it certainly eludes you.


    Let's see here.  You provided no help no links no post. Only thing you provided is trolling, mindless banter, topic derailing and personal attacks.  Is this the example that staff members wish to share with the public community??

I did provide helpful info.


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## TonyL (Sep 29, 2015)

Phillip:  I visited your website and you make some beautiful crafts. You have received much excellent information. I am not big on typing, nor does my knowledge exceed that of the others. However, if you would like me to call you and review your steps, just PM your number to me.

Best to you and keep on asking questions.


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## mbroberg (Sep 29, 2015)

edstreet said:


> mbroberg said:
> 
> 
> > There is nothing in this response that is of any value to anyone.  Just a condescending insult.  John provided links to previous posts in attempt to actually help the OP.  That you happen to have posted responses in those previous threads does not equate to you providing this op anything. You Ed, provided nothing to this poster other than an insult for having the audacity to ask a question that you believe should not have to have been asked.  Maybe, someday, you will get a clue, learn some basic common courtesy or better yet, figure out how to appropriately interact with others on the forum.  It's not rocket science or black magic but it certainly eludes you.
> ...



Nice try. The entire matter beyond your comprehension.  End of discussion.


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## TonyL (Sep 29, 2015)

Let us ALL remember to respect the OP's post. We are ALL much better, kinder, and considerate than to detract from his questions and request for help.  I am not censuring anyone, I just want to ensure the Phillip get the help he wants.


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## maxwell_smart007 (Sep 29, 2015)

I'm getting very tired of these side arguments - not conversations, arguments.  

Please keep your discussions civil, and remember that the goal is to discuss topics in a friendly manner and learn/share from and with each other.  If we can't discuss without fighting, what's the point?  Everyone please try and be cognizant of your tone when posting, and try not to bait or respond to baits when you're frustrated.  

Friendly reminder...it's getting to be a frequent issue, and I'm hoping we can self-regulate.  

Andrew 
assistant moderator


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## Skie_M (Sep 29, 2015)

jttheclockman said:


> Philip E said:
> 
> 
> > First I guess I should apologize for making another thread about this subject, I did a search but I guess I didn't do a proper search, did not realize there was already so much data on this subject already but to answer a few of the questions, I don't rightly know how old the CA is but I guess it is getting a bit old.  It is Stickfast brand, but it is a bit older.  I have a fresh unopened bottle I got not too long ago, I'll try it later and see what happens.  I usually put on about 11-12 coats all thin.  Sometimes I use the accelerator sometimes not.  As for the blanks most of them are several year old maple or walnut so I am pretty sure they are dry.  Temps have been in the mid 70's to upper 80's not very humid.
> ...





Oh yeah, that might definitely do it ...  If you have layers of cured CA between layers of uncured CA, the cured one could craze like yours did.  That's exactly how they do a cracked glaze effect in nails and paint.


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## edstreet (Sep 29, 2015)

I forgot a post from earlier on is subject.   





edstreet said:


> There is a big difference between expression an opinion and being, well just wrong.  Every one of us has this problem.  I myself am wrong often, I also have an opinion, the two is not the same.  Being wrong is a learning opportunity.  It is also 'OK' to be wrong.  A skilled craftsman does not gain mastery level skills without being wrong a number of times and learning from their shortcomings then overcoming them.  Yes, Your Opinion Can Be Wrong | Houston Press  On the post I mentioned there are a good number of wrong info being parroted that is a public nuisance that is false information when it comes to various topic, the foremost being CA.  It is not my intention nor goal to pick on any one person, point them out or even belittle them.  It is however my intention to point out a serious problem that has been going on for a very unhealthy period of time.  If you call and talk to several glue companies, manufactures that is, then ask them about detailed information regarding the product you will very quickly see that some brands are better than others.  Various topics are HUGE eye openers such as PH / Chlorosis / Low Odor / Low Bloom / Surface Insensitive / Flexible / Additives such as Methyl methacrylate polymer, Ethylene Copolymer Rubber and the like.  Challenge yourself, explore and grow.  Back to the original posters question.  As I have previously mentioned bloom is the problem.  See this article from the permabond engineering company for a good detailed description. How do I prevent white powdery residue when using instant adhesives?  Permabond | How about from one of the largest manufactures in the world of glue? Cyanoacrylates FAQ - Henkel North America - Q: What is blooming?  Also while on Henkelna's site explore this one as well. Cyanoacrylates FAQ - Henkel North America - Q: What does surface insensitive mean?  On a post partum note, did anyone take note of the trapped volatiles reference?


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## Smitty37 (Oct 4, 2015)

edstreet said:


> I have posted a number of times what happens and why on this very subject. It's not rocket science  nor black magic. It's also not complex factors.


Ed, why don't you tell the OP where to find the information you have posted?  I know you've posted on this subject but if he is going to make use of that information you have to point him to it.


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