# Problems with FP nibs.....again....



## woodscavenger (Mar 18, 2005)

I think I may be done with the FP business.  I have had three of them come back.  All were the sterling silver kit.  Makes it kind of expensive to switch it out to a rollerball but I did it.  I have two that I play with and must say that they do have skip problems.  I have read a bunch of site on cleaning and fiddling with the nibs.  I have worn them in on a paper sack, better ink.....blah, blah, blah....and still they come back.  I am sure part of it is these are people not used to a FP but I have a cheap waterman with a fatter nib that definitely does not suffer from the same problems.  The only FP kit I have used is the baron kit.  Do the nibs really differ from kit to kit?


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## btboone (Mar 18, 2005)

There's obviously something to that.  My pen has a kit nib that is somewhat finicky too.  I went to a pen store for the first time the other day and tried a DuPont pen.  The difference was unbelievable.  How can such a fine little capillary have that much difference between nibs!?  Obviously it does though.


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## JimGo (Mar 18, 2005)

Bruce an WoodScavenger,
I met up with Lou (DCBluesman) back on Monday or Tuesday of this week, and he and I were discussing the wide variety of both styles and performance of FP nibs.  Our conversation gave me an interesting idea - sell the FP without the nib, or tell the client that it is just a "starter" nib, and that you recommend going to a pen store to get a replacement (assuming the nibs are thread compatible).


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## KKingery (Mar 18, 2005)

Thanks for the insights on these FP problems.....I've been back & forth as to wether I wanted to get into them at all. I think Jim has a great idea about selling it as a "starter" nib with one concern - If the customer is going to pay you lets say $50.00 or more (just an example), they might not be all that interested in then having to go spend more money to buy a better nib. This is an interesting situation.....any thoughts on stocking a few of the better nibs, and offering them as an upgrade? Or, it might be easier to just go ahead and buy a few of the better nibs, and throw away the kit nibs, adjusting your prices accordingly.


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## PenWorks (Mar 19, 2005)

Hey, any you guys throwing out the kit nibs, throw them this way [] I am awaiting the samples from Germany on the gold nibs. I hope I would have got them this week, but no show. Preliminary pricing appears to be in the 40-50 range, but I have not got into shipping costs and duty.

Anthony


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## Daniel (Mar 19, 2005)

Well, you can cringe if you want to. But I have gone the way of wwodscavengers first thought. I have only made a half dozen fountain pens in the past two years. but one of them was for myself. and anouther was for a friend that I am able to check up on his experience with it. I got fed up with mine in a hurry. my friend stil struggles with his as he really likes it. then my daught has had two of them and never has problems with them. I realize that the right nib, right ink, etc is the key to the preformance but I jsut decided it wasn't worth it. I won't even make a fountain pen except for two axceptions. If someone special orders one, and I only make it after telling them I am not all that impressed withthe preformance of them etc. if it is a fountain pen person they will not ave a problem and order it anyway. the second reason I will make one is in completing my personal collection of pens. an example is I have a complete set of Statesman and Gentalmen pens in rollerball and fountain pens. in every finish that they are offered in. I don't intend to use the fountain pens just have them in my display. so wether they work or not doesn't really matter to me. I will try them out just to see if any work better than others. I don't make any fountain pens to sell at craft shows etc. anymore. If I don't have confidence in them why should I ask anyone else to. If it takes 40-50 dollars to get a good nib. I think I would have to give the pens away at my cost just to move them. A statesman at $35.00 plus 45-55 in blank and replacement nib. brings the out of m pocket cost to as much as $90.00 Right now I have the statesman fountain pen priced at $149.95 on my web sight. not a good idea to tie up $90.00 to make $59. and that doesn't even take into accoutn the costs of showing it to the public at shows etc. by the 3X formula this pen would need to be priced at $270. don't think it would sell at that price. not all combinations are winners. I can make the same pen as a Rollerball. price it even lower than the $149.00 and have a larger customer interest in it. and it will still fit into the 3X formula.


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## Gary (Mar 19, 2005)

I recently made my first three fountain pens from the CSUSA Jr. Statesman group buy here. One I kept for myself to use and evaluate, one I gave to a CPA friend who uses a fountain pen regularly. I asked him to use it and give me feedback. The third I gave to a relative, a woman with beautiful handwriting, and asked for her feedback. 

The CPA friend gave the pen back to me...said it was just too "hit and miss". Worked well sometimes, most of the time it didn't. He also said it was much too "stiff" and uncomfortable to write with. I'm not sure what that means.

The relative (an English teacher) said she used it for two weeks (she too is a fountain pen user) and gave up. She said the feel and quality of writing was just not satisfactory. Since it's a relative I pressed...she said ok...it just feels and writes like a cheap pen. 

My own experience was much the same. I could not make the thing write smoothly. I bought some Private Reserve ink, did the cleaning routine, wrote like crazy to "break it in". Nothing worked. It would write then quit...then it would skip write...then it would quit.

I don't want to sell them to anyone, so I'm not going to make any more. Anybody want to buy a few kits at a reduced price?


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## btboone (Mar 19, 2005)

I will definitely be offering my high end titanium fountain pens with nice nibs.  I need to do my homework and settle on some that work well, will fit the designs, and can be serviced or replaced if necessary.

I'm working on my fountain pen tonight!!!!!  I don't get to do that very often.


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## driften (Mar 19, 2005)

Hmmmm I was just thinking about making a FP. I am giving it second thoughts now.
Any body else have good or bad experance?


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## Thumbs (Mar 19, 2005)

After listening to you guys, FP's are going way down on my "to do" list, too.  I was looking forward to trying them out.  Thanks for sharing and saving me from another expensive "experiment!"


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## PenWorks (Mar 19, 2005)

I use a variety of fountains every day at work,my staff now use fountain pens, no problems here.
A fountain pen has to be used. Don't expect to write something one day and set it down and go back to it the next day or two later, uncap it and expect it to write without playing with it a little. It is not a ball point.

Anhtony


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## lkorn (Mar 19, 2005)

[Daniel,

I'm not sure I follow the "3X formula".  I can see where it works for high and even middle cost pens, but does it work on the low end?  Example; PSI slimline kit $2.75 (full retail), pen blank $2.00. Misc consumables $0.25. Total cost = $5.00.  Would you sell this pen for $15.00.  That doesn't seem like a fair return on labor. Especially, if the degree of difficulty, such as Antler is used.



have a larger customer interest in it. and it will still fit into the 3X formula.
[/quote]


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## Randy_ (Mar 19, 2005)

I wonder if any of you who have had problems with FP nibs have sent them back to the supplier for replacement or, in the case of CUSA kits, contacted Nils for comments by the company??  Seems to me that would be one of the first things you would want to do.  

I just ordered one of Ken Wilson's S&S kits and was going to marry it to a platinum Statesman Jr. FP kit.  In light of the comments here, I think I will hold off for a little while with that particular project!!  

When I finish with this post, I am going to email a link to it to Nils @ CUSA and see what he has to say!  I love fountain pens and will be very disappointed if it turns out that these kits have significant problems.  Unfortunately, I can't justify spending $50-$100 for a high quality German gold nib.  I may have to go back to my $12 Shaffer??


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## Old Griz (Mar 19, 2005)

A little off and on the topic... 
I have a Baron that I use every day and have never had a problem with... I have also sold and gifted 5 other Baron FP's and none of those have a problem... I tell my customers that before they put the ink in the pen to make curly-Qs on a piece of brown paper bag for a minute to polish the nib and remove any small imperfections.. I read about this technique in the AAW magazine... Even the couple of 10K Executive FPs that I have made are going strong with no problems... 
One of the big things that I was told here and at other forums is that the ink you use is a big factor in how your pen will perform... I use only Private Reserve, I figure if it is good enough for Tony, it is good enough for me... it did make a big difference in how my pen writes compared to even the MontBlanc ink I had used.. 

Now a little off the topic... Randy mentioned Ken, if you ever need a real nice custom pen box or laser engraving done, he is the man to see... he did the pen box for the set of pens I made that are being delivered to President Bush.  He will be doing all my laser engraving from now on... I ordered the box on a Monday and had it my grubby little hands by Saturday... you can not ask for more.. he even sent two different colored inserts because neither of us could decide what color would be best.  Here is a link to his site http://www.kallenshaanwoods.com/


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## wdcav1952 (Mar 19, 2005)

> _Originally posted by penworks_
> <br />I use a variety of fountains every day at work,my staff now use fountain pens, no problems here.
> A fountain pen has to be used. Don't expect to write something one day and set it down and go back to it the next day or two later, uncap it and expect it to write without playing with it a little. It is not a ball point.
> 
> Anhtony



Too obvious, Anthony, I'll let you skip your spelling lesson today. []

Back to topic, put me down as loving and using fountain pens.  When my wife owned a '76 MGB, it didn't run like a new car, it required special treatment and was worth it.  Same with FP's


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## Daniel (Mar 19, 2005)

> _Originally posted by lkorn_
> <br />[Daniel,
> 
> I'm not sure I follow the "3X formula".  I can see where it works for high and even middle cost pens, but does it work on the low end?  Example; PSI slimline kit $2.75 (full retail), pen blank $2.00. Misc consumables $0.25. Total cost = $5.00.  Would you sell this pen for $15.00.  That doesn't seem like a fair return on labor. Especially, if the degree of difficulty, such as Antler is used.
> ...


[/quote]
Sorry to those that have not seen it. the 3X formula is a pricing method I learned along time ago. take your material costs and mutiply it by three just to get your money back. basically what it really cost to make a pen. in shop eqipment, heating lighting. gas to get to the show or whatever. just something to think about, I jsut spent over $1500.00 on Dust collector, sharpening equipment. lathe accessories, and pen blanks. I then spent $400.00 on pen kits. sort of puts some real life numbers out there to look at. but anyway look at the materials times three to give a good actual cost. your labor then gets added to that. so the $15.00 slimline becomes $25 pen if you want $10 for making it. $30 if you want $15. etc. you just need to know what you want for every pen you make. the 3X part of the furmula helps protect you from unknowingly loosing money and then going hey how did I go broke at this. I was selling pens left and right. also remember this applies to a succesful "Business" practice. applying it to a a craft or hobby allows it to be altered as much as you like to. considering many of us give our work away. I don't think everyone is actually bent on turning a profit at this. but at leaast know what you are really giving away when you do it. that $1.70 slimline more accuratly cost you $5.10 when you figure your lathe, band saw, drill press, sandpaper, glue, polish etc. not to mention the more recognizable shipping packaging etc that went into getting it in the first place. 
nw it has been argued that a kit that costs $1.70 is no problem when it comes to the 3X furmula. but does it really cost you an extra $60 to make a $30 Statesman Fountain pen. well the excample I gave before was for statesman statesman Jr, gent and gent Jr. kits. 1500 bucks in tools and 400 dollars in kits. looks like I would loose money on my shop if I only triple the kit cost.  now you can say I wouldn't be rebuying that 1500 dollars worth of equipment every time I buy 400 dollars in kits. try and track it for yourself and see if you don't.
I won't be buying anouther dust collector or even anouther sharpening machine. but this is the third sharpening system I have bought. it will be a now skew or gouge. a better set of drill bits or something else. this brings the amoutn of money I have put into tools for pens specifically to over $3500.00 in just a little less than 3 years. i have made about 500 pens in that time. at this point each pen has cost me about $7.00 in equipment. this number holds fairly steady with additions of new equipment as I make more pens. so the extra $3.40 I would charge on a slimline does not cover it. so the extra $60 on the statesman helps make up for what I loose on a slimline. i sell alot more slimlines than i do statesman pens. in short this formula is ment to recover an Average. and averages even out over time not according to an individual sale or pen. 
getting a bit long here. blame it on my medication 
that list never ends.


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## Daniel (Mar 19, 2005)

> _Originally posted by driften_
> <br />Hmmmm I was just thinking about making a FP. I am giving it second thoughts now.
> Any body else have good or bad experance?


this comment brings to my mind something I have been thinking about concerning this conversation.
 Yes we as a general rule like our suppliers and wht they offer.And it is easy to get caught up in defending every item they ever decide to sell. but the reality is it would be impossible and unreasonable to expect anyone to get it flawless every time. I don't like having to fidget with my pen before using it. the next guy loves to. 
this is largly why i suggest to people. sell your favorite pen. pick out the pens you like the best. use yourself etc. and make that your line of pens. I try and sell everything in the catalogs but also have no problem telling a customer what I don't like about any of them. 
I like metal threads better than plastic. others would have it the other way around. some people have a real big issue with platings that wear. I expect it. I also expect the various offerings to have various bugs or personality. I don't put it as a negative thing but I will tell customers what I have found in any given pen. I also find they will still buy it. but an informed purchase. If they are buyinig a fountain pen that needs to be worked at to get it to write. then I tell them that is what it is. I also tell them the problem is either in the nib or the ink. I suggest a couple of ink options and they seem  to have no problem. 
click pens are finicky in my experience, fountain pens are touchy, and I have had a few others that have there "Things" but in large our suppliers have winners far more often than should be expected.


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## btboone (Mar 19, 2005)

I agree Daniel.  The kits certainly serve their purpose.  Just try to make something like a nib for a couple bucks.  This includes stamping, forming the curve, molding the plastic body, slitting the tines, tipping it with niobium, engraving the surface, masking and plating with gold, assembly, and packaging.  I assume the big difference in the high end ones and the others is that the low end ones are probably sheared to get the capillary, while the high end ones are probably wire EDM'ed (electrical discharge machining), a much slower but more precise method.


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## wdcav1952 (Mar 19, 2005)

> _Originally posted by btboone_
> <br />I agree Daniel.  The kits certainly serve their purpose.  Just try to make something like a nib for a couple bucks.  This includes stamping, forming the curve, molding the plastic body, slitting the tines, tipping it with niobium, engraving the surface, masking and plating with gold, assembly, and packaging.  I assume the big difference in the high end ones and the others is that the low end ones are probably sheared to get the capillary, while the high end ones are probably wire EDM'ed (electrical discharge machining), a much slower but more precise method.



I need an aspirin after reading this! [)]


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## btboone (Mar 19, 2005)

All that for a nib that's part of a kit that costs us, the end customer a couple bucks.  It cost the store around half that.


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## Randy_ (Mar 20, 2005)

If I correctly understand what Daniel and Bruce are saying, then I must respectfully disagree.  When a vendor sells me something be it a dollar item or a $1000 item, I expect it perform its advertised  function in a reasonably expeditious fashion.  In our particular  situation, when I buy a pen I expect it to write....and without having to resort to a bunch of incantations and witchcraft to achieve that end.  If the kit manufacturers can't make a FP nib that writes reasonably reliably for $2 then they should spend $4 or whatever it takes.  I certainly wouldn't argue that economy is not an important consideration; but a $4 nib that writes is a heck of a lot better than a $2 nib that doesn't.  I'm not suggesting a $4 nib should perform like a $100 nib; but it should write!!  I wonder how many people would purchase a car if they had to lift the hood every time they started it and jiggle a few wires??  Ever wonder why so many people buy imports instead of American cars.....one word.....quality!!!

To be fair, it is difficult to know from a few anecdotal incidents, whether there is really a problem with the FP nibs in these kits or whether a few people have had bad luck or just don't know how to properly care for and use these items.  I am really hopeful that Nils can shed some light on the topic.


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## Rifleman1776 (Mar 20, 2005)

This is a very interesting discussion. I am (was [?] ) about to order a fountain pen Baron kit from Baumbeck at Arizona Silhouette to make a special pen for a special friend. The comments about nibs in general are disturbing, I don't want to give junk. But Griz' positive experience with BB's Baron is encouraging. However, this all makes me a bit jumpy. Are there replacement nibs of high quality available that will fit the Baron? I would be willing to spend a little extra for quality over dissapointment.


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## btboone (Mar 20, 2005)

&gt;I'm not suggesting a $4 nib should perform like a $100 nib; but it should write!! I wonder how many people would purchase a car if they had to lift the hood every time they started it and jiggle a few wires?? 

If you paid a hundred bucks for the car, you'd expect to have to jiggle the wires every once in a while.  You get what you pay for.  Same with the nibs.  They work, just not as well as others.  They need that break in period.  There are some out there in the $12 dollar range that do much better.  For kit pens, low cost is the driving issue.  It is primary to them selling a lot of kits.  Higher priced ones are out there, but they don't sell very much.  If the kit costs $30 rather than $15, or $15 rather than $7, they priced themselves out of the market.  I certainly understand what you are saying, but their primary goal is to dominate the low end market with something that's a good value and works reasonably well.  The nibs do serve that niche.  People that want to have a nicer nib have other options.


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## driften (Mar 20, 2005)

So where do we get better 3rd party nibs for the FP's and how do we know which ones will work with which kits?
I don't mind spending an extra $15 on a better quality nib that makes the users happy on a pen built to a high quality.


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## btboone (Mar 20, 2005)

There are other people who work with them more than I have that can better answer that.  One place that has some is www.nibs.com, I've gotten some advice from Rich from the "other" forum as well.


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## arehrlich (Mar 20, 2005)

Being a long-time fountain pen user and a relatively new pen turner, I started off by making an El Grande that I purchased from BB.  This is one of the smoothest and nicest writing pens that I have - and that includes Mont Blanc and Namiki pens.  It is a standard medium nib and it has not skipped at all - and I use it almost every day.

This is with the very inexpensive ink cartridge that came with kit.

I have also turned a Jr. Gentleman's fountain pen.  The nib is a little stiffer and a little  finer.  It hasn't skipped at all either.  Being stiffer, it has a very different feel than the El Grande, but both write extremely well.

All FP nibs require a break-in period.  This is not well understood by folks that always use ball points.  Once the nibs begin to conform to your hand, they write very well.

Neither of these two pens required an extensive break-in.  Both work very well.  I'm disappointed that many of you seem to have difficulties with the nibs.  I'd be interested in finding sources for better nibs, but so far, the kit nibs have performed quite well.

Alan


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## Tom McMillan (Mar 20, 2005)

Great to have you here Alan!!  I'm glad to glean all I can from fountain pen users since I haven't been one for waaaaaay too long.  I need to make one for me soon---I think I'll likely sell the spiral one I have made.  Good to hear your thoughts about the El Grande since that's the one I made.  You might check Anthony's posts (penworks), as he is working on getting a nice nib.  A lot of wonderful people here---hope to see more of your contributions!!!


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## arehrlich (Mar 20, 2005)

Tom,

Thanks for the greetings.  I'm so fortunate to have found the penturner's forum and I hope that I can give back just a small portion of what I'm getting from the group.  I've got a lot to learn, but in this area, the learning is sooo much fun!!!

I'll be posting some photos of my work for the group's critique.

Post more soon.

Alan


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## woodscavenger (Mar 20, 2005)

Alan, thanks for the info on different nib kits.  That is one type of info I am looking for.  I was hoping that some of the other kits had other nibs with different flex properties that may be more user friendly.  So far my baron nibs have me singing the blues.  I wish the kit came with the rollerball and FP option in the same pack.  This is getting expensive for me to swap a rollerball into the FP kits.  I might have to try the El Grande.


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## arehrlich (Mar 20, 2005)

Woodscavenger,

I haven't tried the Baron FP as yet.  I have a Gentleman's pen that I plan on working on this week.  I'll let you know about the nib on that one.  It is probably much like the one on the Baron.

Berea has a variety of nibs available for the El Grande and their smaller pens.  You can get fine, medium (standard) or broad.  The extra nibs run about $5 each.  I purchased a few fine nibs but I haven't had the time to test them.

Right now I'm assuming that the nib on the Gentleman's pen is similar, albeit larger, than the one on the Jr Gent's.  I'll let you know more when I find out.

I think you'll like the El Grande.  It's a nice pen to turn.  It was the first pen I ever made so maybe I'm partial... or it was beginner's luck.

Alan


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## woodscavenger (Mar 20, 2005)

Would you be up to having me send one of the barons out to you?  You could play around with it and see what you think of the nib.  You could also answer a question I have not been able to figure out....Do the replacement nibs you speak of fit in the baron kit?  I have wondered if the broad or medium point might be more forgiving for people.  Please e-mail me if you're interested and I will mail one of my finished barons out to you for a test drive.


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## arehrlich (Mar 21, 2005)

woodscavenger,

I'd be happy to test drive one of your baron pens.  Although, from what I understand, there are no alternate nibs right now.  I believe that they will be made available in the near future.

Personally I enjoy a fine nib. The El Grande standard (medium) seems to be a little finer than medium but certainly not a fine.  My comparison is a set of Waterman Phineus (spelling???) pens that I've had for a good number of years.

The nib on the Jr. Gentleman's pen was much closer to a fine.  I am really enjoying that one.

I'll email you my address.  If you want me to take a look at your Baron, send it out and I'll return it in about a week.

Alan


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## Rifleman1776 (Mar 21, 2005)

That link didn't open.





> _Originally posted by btboone_
> <br />There are other people who work with them more than I have that can better answer that.  One place that has some is www.nibs.com, I've gotten some advice from Rich from the "other" forum as well.


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## btboone (Mar 21, 2005)

Hmm.  It looks like the period at the end of the sentence was included.  Try this: www.nibs.com


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## RussFairfield (Mar 21, 2005)

As a maker, seller, and practitioner of the fountain pen, I feel that I have to say something about the kits that we make.

I have no experience with the specific pen kits that are being discussed, but I have used a lot of the nibs that come with the Berea flat-top Ameroclassic, and the similar pen from Craft Supplies. I have to say that they are a pretty good quality writing point, and that they write as well as or better than any of the plated steel tips  in the commercial pens that sell for less than $100. I have made and sold something over 300 fountain pens, and have never experienced the same quality issues that are being described here.

All fountain pens require some break-in time, regardless of their cost. Some will require more time than others, and there will always be some that will never get there; and this has nothing to do with what the nibs is made from. I have been concerned about nib quality for so long that I give every one of them a test drive, and then clean it before putting it in a pen and selling it. I give them a few circular strokes across a  piece of grocery bag paper if they feel sticky on the paper. That usually takes care of it. Sometimes I may have to drop back to a coarser 1000-grit and work my way back up through 1500, 2000, and the brown paper. Sometimes there is a tip that will never make it, no matter what I do to it, but those are less than 1 in 10 or so. I send those few rejects back to where I bought them for a replacement, and I have never had either supplier question me about them. 

The issue between the better quality solid gold nibs and the plated steel nibs that are in our kits has to do with flexibility, stiffness, and prestige; it has nothing to do with ink flow. The drip and skip problems are another issue; but not one that I have found with the kit nibs to the degree described.

Fountain pens are finicky. They are not the writing instrument of choice for everyone. They require a lot of care, cleaning, and maintainance. That is why they were replaced by the ballpoint and rollerball pens that someone can pick up and start writing immediately, and throw away when they quit. Like smoking a pipe, the fountain pen will teach patience and persistance. For those who can't handle that, they will be disappointed in a fountain pen.

There are three parts to using a fountain pen - the point, the ink, and the paper. The biggest issue is the paper. A piece of paper from the printer tray is not what we should be using for a fountain pen. 

For me, there are three (3) types of fountain pen buyers. Notice that I said "buyers", not lookers. 

The first group is the "ballpoint generation" who has never known anything else, and they see the fountain pen as a piece of history that they would like to experience. Some of them want something different to show off to their friends. They want a pen that writes well and looks good without spending more than $100.

Another is what I call the "Nostalgia Buyer". These are the older folks, often retired professional and executives who have memories of the high quality fountain pens they used in an earlier era. Some of them still carry a fountain pen. They will buy a wooden pen because it is unique. They are not a difficult sale, but they do want to talk about the old days before they part with their money, and they do want a pen that writes well. Some of them will prefer the shaded line from the softer gold nib. Some of them won't.

Then there is the "Collector" for whom cost is no object. These folks are nuts. They will fuss about the line quality, and the quality of the nib, from a pen they will put in a display case where it will never be used again. It has to be a beautiful wood grain with a perfect fit and finish. A few of them will buy a pen with a plated steel nib, but most of them will demand a gold one.

I have been losing 1/2 of the buyers of fountain pens because I didn't have a gold nib available. Since the remaining half are buying the pens as fast as I can make them, I have ignored the rest, and keep on making the "cheap" pens with the "cheap" nibs.

I think I have resolved the "better nib" problem for myself by machining the fitting for a commercial gold nib from a piece of 1/2" Sterling bar stock. The nib costs about $50, the Sterling about $10, and the machining is less than an hour. For that, I can add $200 to the price of the pen and get it; and I might be able to get some of that other half of the market I have been missing.


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## nilsatcraft (Mar 21, 2005)

I was just forwarded an e-mail from Randy Meijer letting me know about this topic.  I realize I may be in the minority but I don't personally use fountain pens.  I've always been a rollerball and gel kind of guy, so I'm really not a good person to ask about the use of fountain nibs.  I can tell you this, however.  Craft Supplies USA guarantees the satisfaction of each item we sell.  We really want each of our customers to be happy with what we sell and if you're not, you can send it in for a replacement, exchange or refund.  For questions regarding the use, assembly, repair or maintenance of fountain pens, you're welcome to contact our technical team at 1-800-398-2743.  For other inquiries, you can call our service department at 1-800-551-8876.  Thanks!


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## Deere41h (Mar 21, 2005)

Russ.......Thank you for a most informative bit of information.  It is really appreciated.


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## Ben (Mar 21, 2005)

Hi there. I'm very new to the forum, but do have somewhat of an affinity for pens. Contrary to what he might say or think, I use one of Daniel's Fountain pens that I got from him recently. I tell you what, I don't think I'll ever buy another kind of pen! I have used Cross ball points for years, and recently aquired this FP. It is an Americana style pen that Daniel did in antler. I don't know if perhaps the Baron has a different style nib, but I believe this one is from a PSI kit. You could ask Daniel for sure, but regardless it writes like a real dream! In compairison to the number of Fountain Pens that you've made total, has the number returned been higher than of those made with rollerballs or ball points. I wouldn't say giving up just yet, but maybe try other FP kits maybe from a different supplier. Although I don't have any pens under my belt just yet, I think that I already am an addict... Take Care,


Ben


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## Daniel (Mar 21, 2005)

This conversation caused me to dig out my old fountain pen.
the one I have is from P.S.I. the PK10-FP and I struggle with it. am going to change the ink cartridge and see if I have any better luck with it.
the one Ben speaks of above is the P.S.I. PKPAR10FT. according to him it is a dream writer. so go figure.
 Two pens I have made in the past that my daughter absolutly loves are the Little Havana from CSUSA. neither of them have given her any problems.
so now I am 3 for 5 out of the fountain pens that I can track as to how they work and they are on the winning side for now. I still offer fountain pens for those that want them. not sure I will pre make any though.
I just tried my pen with the new ink refill. the ink is flowing pretty well. but, and I know this is just this particular nib. it feels very rough to right with. like the nib wants to catch on the paper. the other fountain pens I have used where much smoother. I have actually used every pen I made as I sign a card with it once it is done.


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## btboone (Mar 21, 2005)

I tried breaking in my nib on a grocery bag, but it kept poking through the plastic. []


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## timdaleiden (Mar 21, 2005)

> _Originally posted by btboone_
> <br />I tried breaking in my nib on a grocery bag, but it kept poking through the plastic. []



I tried burnishing a pen once with a grocery bag, and it kept melting. We must be missing something here Bruce. []


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## woodscavenger (Mar 21, 2005)

Bruce, Russ sounds like he must have the engineering mindset and tool shop like you do if he is machining custom fittings from sterling barstock.


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## btboone (Mar 21, 2005)

Sterling barstock.  Gotta love it. [] It sounds at least as expensive as titanium, probably not as much as tungsten though.  Must be pretty easy to machine since it's so soft.


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## arehrlich (Mar 22, 2005)

Now, if he will only sell some of these nib assemblies to the rest of us.  How about it?

Alan


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## Randy_ (Mar 22, 2005)

Russ:

Thanks very much for your perspective on the concerns about FP nibs.  You have greatly eased my mind concerning potential problems with FP nibs.  It's also good to know that if a problem nib does show up, the good folks at CUSA will stand behind their kits.  I have every confidence that we can depend on our other pen kit vendors to stand behind their products as well.      

There have been a few comments here indicating most people sell their FPs dry.  I think I will steal a page from your notebook and wet test any FPs that I offer for sale unless a customer specifically prefers a pen that hasn't been inked.


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## RussFairfield (Mar 22, 2005)

Most customers appreciate that I have given the pen a wet-test. For those that don't, I exchange the nib.

Sterling isn't all that expensive when you consider that the scrap and chips have a resale value of about $6 per ounce.

Yes, I do have a small machinist lathe with a lead screw for cutting metric threads.


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## woodscavenger (Apr 1, 2005)

Just an update.  I sent one of my troublesome baron FPs to arerhlich.  He has an affinity for FPs and took it for a test drive.  Here is a copy of the e-mail he sent me after playing with it for a few days.

Shane,

I've been using your pen for a few days now.  Writes quite well... when it
writes.  There is definitely something wrong with the nib assembly.  It
seems to me that it gets air-blocked every once in a while.  I was writing -
everything was great - and it just stopped.  I had to pull the cartridge and
replace it, and then squeeze it a little to get ink flowing again.  Wrote
another page or two and the same thing happened.  I would not call this
skipping - it's too severe for that.  There is something that stops the 
ink from flowing.

I've been using my Jr. Gent's for a few weeks now - on my third 
cartridge - and have not experienced anything like it.

Fountain pens can be finicky, but they should keep the  ink
flowing.  This isn't a matter of the nib requiring break-in.  There is
something not-right here.

Hope this helps.

Alan

I have been playing with some of  my other baron FP nibs and have not had problems.  Maybe I just got a bad batch.  I hope this helps some people.

If you sell FPs you might want to make sure the people know how to play with them because they are great but definitely not as low maintainence as a smooth rollerball.  They sure look cool though.


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## Rifleman1776 (Apr 2, 2005)

All these stated problems are very disturbing. I am waiting on delivery of an order from Arizona Silohutte which will include a gold titanium fountain pen. I am planning on making this pen as a gift for a very special person. A gold cross will be fixed to the clip by a jewler. The wood will be Bethlehem olive. All in all my investment will be fairly substantial. But most importantly, I want the pen to write well. Now I'm concerned that I'll be delivering an attractive clunker to my friend. Not much of a gift if that happens. What do the suppliers, like Bill Baumbeck, say about these problems?


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## Daniel (Apr 2, 2005)

Frank,
 If the Fountain Pen your are talking about is a CSUSA Kit you stand a far better chance of getting a good nib in my experience. non of the fountain pens from CSUSA have worked well once a good ink cartride was found. I have been using STRATOS cartridges. anyway. make the pen and then test it. if you have problems there is the option of changing out nibs until you get one working good.


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## Bill Baumbeck (Apr 2, 2005)

I believe the reply made by Russ Fairfield was very well thought out and presented.  He touched on every major point related to fountain pen usage.  I would urge everyone to go back and review Russ's comments if you wish to successfully make, sell and use fountain pens.

Here is what I've found selling the fountain pen kits offered by Berea, CSUSA and ourselves:  Not every 'end user' has the knowledge or experience to make and/or use a fountain pen.  This includes both the <u>pen maker</u> and the <u>customer</u>.  To the best of my knowledge there are not any design flaws in any of the fountain pens made by the companies I just mentioned.  If there were we wouldn't sell them.  

The fountain pen maker needs to be knowledgeable with his/her product.  If you don't know how to take one apart, how to refill a pump, how to suggest different cleaning methods, how to explain the 'break-in', what inks to use and not use, etc. then you are not holding up your responsibility as a fountain pen maker.  

Fountain pens are a whole different ballgame when compared to ballpoint and/or rollerball pens.  The way the pen is held and the type of paper that is being used to write on, for example, are very important.  If you don't think that you can effectively explain all of what is needed to know to your customer then I would suggest that you stick with ballpoints and rollerballs.

As for a potential fountain pen customer:  Some people are aware of what is envolved with the proper 'care and feeding' of this type of writing instrument.  If you suspect they don't I would suggest that you direct their attention to a rollerball and/or ballpoint pen.

Someone asked about replacement nibs for the Baron:  We will be adding replacement nibs (fine, medium and broad) for the Baron series in the very near future (they are being made now).  We will not be offering calligraphy nibs as calligraphy ink is heavier and is not designed for normal fountain pen usage.

To the _newbies_ and _undecided's_ in the group:  keep an open mind and try new things.  If all of us were to rely upon the 'nay sayers' we'd all still be turning slimlines pens. :&gt

Bill Baumbeck
Arizona Silhouette
<u>www.arizonasilhouette.com</u>


"You will never make a difference in this world if you are afraid of making enemies" :&gt


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## wdcav1952 (Apr 3, 2005)

Bill,

Consider this post to be a standing ovation from a lover of fountain pens.


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## woodscavenger (Apr 3, 2005)

Just to let you all know, about four hours ago I placed an order with BB.  He was not home so I mentioned the problems I had with the Baron FP to his better half.  About 30 minutes later BB called me at home and basically went through the same discussion he typed above.  Not only did it give me some things to think about before selling FPs to people but also reinforced his fantastic customer service.  Thanks BB!


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## Rifleman1776 (Apr 3, 2005)

BB's reply has helped me feel more optimistic. The recipient of the fountain pen I will be making is an experience user.


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## arehrlich (Apr 3, 2005)

Although I'm a long time - 35+ years - fountain pen user, I've only been turning pens for a few months - BB has gotten to know me by now. 

So far I've made about 4 El Grande pens, three Jr. Gent, a full sized Gent and a couple of Americanas.  I have used each of these pens to make sure that they wrote the way I like fountain pens to write.  Each of them did.  I have to say that my El Grande is about the smoothest FP that I've used - and that includes Monte Blanc; Peliquan; etc.

The Baron that woodscavenger sent me to look at was the first pen kit that I've seen that had a problem.  In the middle of writing - after about 2 or 3 full pages, it would quit.  After playing with it for a while, it began writing again - very smoothly, I might add.

But again, after a few pages, it stopped again. Same thing.  Let it stand for about 10 minutes and it began to write smoothly again.

I believe that there is a problem with this one mechanism.  I have not experienced anything like it with any of the other pens that I have made.

Fear not about giving a friend - or selling - any of these fountain pens!  They are wonderful writing machines and will do you proud.

The law of averages says that there will be a few problems in any mass produced product.  But from what I've seen, the number are low and the potential for success is far greater than that of having a problem.

Turn on - and keep the beauty of the fountain pen alive.

Alan


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