# Pen Reference Chart-What Are your Thoughts??



## Randy_ (Oct 2, 2006)

Over the years, several pen crafters in our community have compiled reference charts for the pen kits that we all use.  These charts have proved to be handy references; but they all have shortcomings.  For a while, now, the thought has been churning the depths of the dark recesses of my brain that it would be nice to have a single comprehensive reference chart that would cover all of the pen kits made by all of the manufacturers and include some specs that do not show up on any of the current charts, i.e. things like pen weight, finished length & max. dia., tube lengths and others yet to be determined in addition to the basic info that is already in most of the charts.

This would be a pretty big operation to start from scratch so I may be asking permission of the authors of the existing references to incorporate their data into this new work.  In addition, I would like to know if anyone out there has already started a project like this that is unpublishedâ€¦â€¦no need to reinvent the wheelâ€¦..or if there is anyone out there who would like to participate?  Iâ€™m under no illusion that this something I can do by myselfâ€¦..Iâ€™m sure it will require the help of many individuals to accumulate all of the information that I would like to see made available.

Right now, I am just at the conceptual stage and considering if it is possible to do and how to go about doing it.  The point of this post is to solicit ideas and opinions about such a project to help me evaluate its feasibility and acquire ideas about content.  Iâ€™m guessing that this might be a project that has to be done in stages and my thinking, right now, it to orient the information more toward technical specs than cosmetics.  By that I mean I will gather information on length, width and weight etc. of a specific pen type and not worry about what platings or clip styles are available.  Information that is readily and conveniently available in a catalog will receive less consideration.   Initially, I would do only pen and pencil kits; but might add such things as key chains, penlights, letter openers etc. if there is enough interest. 

Iâ€™ll probably miss a few items; but the current list of parameters to be shown in the chart is as follows:

Kit Name 
Kit number
AKA-names used by resellers
Seller & Reseller(only Hut, Woodcraft and maybe Rockler)
Price(Probably won't look them up; but will post what ever is already available.)
Mandrel Size
Bushings number
Bushing dimensions
Drill Bit Size-Recommended by Seller
Drill Bit Size-alternative size discovered by field experimentation
Min. Blank Size(maybe)
Tube length(s)
Finished pen length
Finished dia. for (B-B profile)
Notes/Comments

Please let me know your thoughts.  Thanks.  Randy


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## ctEaglesc (Oct 2, 2006)

I'd like to see a feature that would include the "wall thickness" or how much  "meat is between the  tube and the dushing dia.


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## Jerryconn (Oct 2, 2006)

This would be an ultimate reference I think and could prove to be very worth while, I have not tried to compile any data at present but I would be willing to contribute.  I'm sure you've already seen it but I really like the bushing chart that Huzzah has been working on.


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## DCBluesman (Oct 2, 2006)

If you add a data point for the OD of the tube, you can have the computer figure the "meat on the bone" (Bushing OD - tube OD = "meat").


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## JimGo (Oct 2, 2006)

I like the idea of the weight of the kit, too, but that should be JUST the kit, since the different materials can impact the weight.


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## tnilmerl (Oct 2, 2006)

I'm game.  I have most of that info already in my own little book and excel spreadsheet for all the WoodCraft stuff.  Some other stuff, like their acyrlic blanks as well.  I'm willing to compile all the info if others are willing to provide some of raw data.  I've been scraping it off the various websites and plugging into my spreadsheet whenever I found time.

The biggest problem I have is that vendors are always updating their sites, and what is on the site versus what's in the store or catalog versus what's actually in the warehouse rarely sync up.

I don't store cost cause that information is too volatile.  Basides, bulk purchases changes the cost.

Wasn't there a big master list here sometime back?  Don't remember who did it,but it's a start.

I also have several drill bit charts I've been meaning to merge into a single point of reference.  Any interest in that?


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## jeff (Oct 2, 2006)

I hashed this over some time ago with someone proposing something similar. I proposed contacting the manufacturers - I was thinking that they might have some of this compiled in a useable form. 

I'm not sure the added value, but I'd be willing to build a searchable database of this. What would the predominant use be? Look up data for a given kit, or find all the pens under x length and y weight that can be made with a 10mm bit. 

Wasn't somebody here working on an inventory program? Perhaps that person would like to work on this database.


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## Yarael (Oct 2, 2006)

Sounds like a good Idea. I was kind of thinking about doing a spreedsheet with all the kits that I have as an Inventory/sales sheet. But for this idea would require a lot more work. If you need help let me know. I dont technically have excel but heck openoffice is so much better once you figure out the quirks to it. Plus its free. If ya need help with this let me know Im game.


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## Huzzah (Oct 2, 2006)

Randy - To provide a little feedback on Jeff's comment.  I contacted Nils and he went to the powers to be to see if they could provide me with dimensions of the bushings and they wouldn't let him provide me with the info.  I believe the info was availble but they don't want to share it because they are subject to change at any time and they don't want conflicted data available.  Feel free to give it a go again though, maybe they will change their minds []


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## DocStram (Oct 5, 2006)

Randy .... I hope you keep this idea alive.  It would be a really significant contribution.  I have a suggestion ... if possible .. it would really help me if there was also a photo of the pen in the db. 
Just a thought.


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## Randy_ (Oct 5, 2006)

> _Originally posted by DCBluesman_
> <br />If you add a data point for the OD of the tube, you can have the computer figure the "meat on the bone" (Bushing OD - tube OD = "meat").



Good point.  Thanks.


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## Randy_ (Oct 5, 2006)

> _Originally posted by JimGo_
> <br />I like the idea of the weight of the kit, too, but that should be JUST the kit, since the different materials can impact the weight.



Jim:  I have given that issue a little thought and am leaning toward using a finished weight.  While it is true that there will be some weight variation between materials, my feeling is there won't be a lot unless you are talking about something like the copper wire/solder pen or maybe a cartridge pen.  One reason to show weights is to compare the kit pens; but if we use finished weights, we could also compare to weights of commercially produced pens.  In for a penny, in for a pound.....I guess we could show both??


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## Randy_ (Oct 5, 2006)

> _Originally posted by tnilmerl_
> <br />I'm game......


Well, take a bath!!!  Hey, just kidding!!![][]



> _Originally posted by tnilmerl_
> <br />I'm game.  I have most of that info already in my own little book and excel spreadsheet for all the WoodCraft stuff.  Some other stuff, like their acyrlic blanks as well.  I'm willing to compile all the info if others are willing to provide some of raw data.  I've been scraping it off the various websites and plugging into my spreadsheet whenever I found time......


Travis: Is that the info you have posted on the chart in the IAP library or do you have something with additional information??  I think most of the info in the posted chart is contained in Daniel's chart as well.



> _Originally posted by tnilmerl_
> <br />.....Wasn't there a big master list here sometime back?  Don't remember who did it,but it's a start.....


I think you might be talking about the one that was done by Daniel??  It is posted here at IAP.  You can get to it using the link on the IAP home page.



> _Originally posted by tnilmerl_
> <br />.....I don't store cost cause that information is too volatile.....


I agree and would not have done the work myself; but Daniel has already assembled the information and even though it may not be completely accurate, it is nice to be able to compare approximate prices.



> _Originally posted by tnilmerl_
> <br />.....I also have several drill bit charts I've been meaning to merge into a single point of reference.  Any interest in that?



There are several of those posted both here and on the Yahoo site.  Don't think there is need for much additional information in this area.

This is going to be a large project and will require the efforts of many people to bring to fruition.  Thanks in advance, Travis, for your offer.  After we have fully researched what information is available, then we can figure out how best to bring it all together in one database.


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## Dario (Oct 12, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Randy__
> <br />
> 
> 
> ...



Just a minor thing.  I think the actual "meat" thickness is 1/2 of that shown so...
"meat" = (Bushing OD - tube OD) / 2


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## TBone (Oct 12, 2006)

Just an FYI in case you didn't know.  You can put a picture in Excel so that when you mouse-over the cell it will bring up the the picture.  I take pictures of the Serial/Model #'s of my tools and use that instead of entering the data for a shop inventory for insurance.  Much harder to transpose numbers that way []


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## Randy_ (Oct 12, 2006)

TBone:  I'm semi-literate, at best, in Excel and didn't know about the picture thing.  I will find out how to do it as that might be an interesting feature to add to the chart.  Thanks.


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## TBone (Oct 13, 2006)

I'll be happy to send you some instructions on how to do if you'd like.


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## Randy_ (Oct 13, 2006)

Thanks.  I'll holler if I have a problem.  Already had a stop scheduled at the public library to pick a book on Excel to solve some otrher needs.  I'm comfortable with computer use in general so it shouldn't be difficult to figure out.


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## TBone (Oct 13, 2006)

Randy,

I'm by no means an expert but if there's anything I can help with on the list, excel or otherwise, just let me know.


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## panini (Oct 13, 2006)

Are you going to add balance of the pen?


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## Randy_ (Oct 13, 2006)

TBone:  Thanks.  I'll put your name on the list...will be in touch.

Mark:  Pretty much planned to stay with parameters that can be easily measured.  Not sure how if you can or how to measure balance??


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## Dario (Oct 13, 2006)

Randy,

Looks like you have lots of volunteers already but if you need something that I may be able to help you with, just let me know.


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## beamer (Oct 13, 2006)

Balance might be tough ... but what an interesting measurement ... My imagination may be thinking of something entirely off, but what about "the distance from the tip at which the pen is neutrally balanced with no material"

You'd have to assemble every kit and find it's center of gravity ... i wonder if that'd be valuable. It would at least give you an idea of those that may be top heavy or bottom heavy. And with a little experience i think it might go a long way toward finding a good feeling pen for everyone ... You could obviously adjust the balance of a given kit by shaping the material at one end or the other in such a way that moves that center of gravity somewhat ... It's weird how stuff like this latches onto my brain


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## Randy_ (Nov 15, 2006)

For those who are interested, I have finished a preliminary pen kit count based on the chart posted by Daniel which he has graciously offered me to use as a base for my "PEN REFERENCE CHART" project.  The figures are very approximate as there is a certain amount of discretion in listing kits.  For instance, I did not count as individual kits, those that had different center bands or platings; but I did separate fountain/rollerball/pencil kits although in many cases the specs for each are identical.  I have also included letter openers and magnifiers where they match a particular pen kit and might be made up as a set.  I have also included a few "novelty" pens like the key chain, flash drive, and penlight kits.  I'm sure no two turners would agree exactly on which kits should be counted or how they should be indexed.  I recognize that is an area of discussion; but I am not going to worry about it.  If I have some flagrant mistakes I will be happy to correct them; but I am not going to debate these decisions, individually, as there are more important things to worry about and we could never get a consensus anyway.  

I'm going to clean up the preliminary chart a little and then post it so folks can look at it and offer comments.  It is not even close to being complete; but you can look at the list of kits and the general format of the imformation and offer any comments.  

Thanks.

Pen kit count:

CSUSA--73 kits

PSI--73 kits

Berea--56 kits

Total kits(more or less)--202


Note: The chart includes listings for HUT and WOODCRAFT kits; but since they ere essentially Berea kits, I have not included them in the kit count.


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## DocStram (Nov 15, 2006)

Ummmmm .... where do I find Daniel's Chart?


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## jjenk02 (Nov 15, 2006)

> _Originally posted by DocStram_
> <br />Ummmmm .... where do I find Daniel's Chart?



I was wondering the same thing, but figured it was just me[8D]


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## JTaylor801 (Nov 15, 2006)

Here's an idea.....

Once this data has been collected, why not get it in an on-line format.  Or better yet....marry the information in with Jon's Penventory system?  Actually the latter (combining it with penventory) would bring the most bang for buck. 

Jerry


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## Randy_ (Nov 15, 2006)

> _Originally posted by DocStram_
> <br />Ummmmm .... where do I find Daniel's Chart?




Look on the IAP home page in the center about 3/4 of the way down. You will find a link there.


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## Randy_ (Nov 15, 2006)

> _Originally posted by JTaylor801_
> <br />Here's an idea.....
> 
> Once this data has been collected, why not get it in an on-line format.  Or better yet....marry the information in with Jon's Penventory system?  Actually the latter (combining it with penventory) would bring the most bang for buck.



The plan right now is to present the information in an Excel.....xls.....format which many folks are at least minimally familiar with.  I don't know what "penventory" is so I'm not sure what the advantage of combining the information would be??  There is always the possibility that you can have too much information in one place and make it "MORE" difficult to use.  Not automatically against the idea, just asking for an explanation of why it would be a good idea??


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## jjenk02 (Nov 15, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Randy__
> <br />
> 
> 
> ...



I found it, but for some reason I can't open the link[:I]


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## Randy_ (Nov 15, 2006)

Did you select XLS or PDF?  Both work for me.

The XLS won't work if you don't have Excel and the PDF won't work if you don't have Adobe.  Not quite sure why it isn't working for you??


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## jjenk02 (Nov 15, 2006)

I had to put my glasses on, I couldn't see see the XLS or PDF link without them[:I]

Nice job, but that looks like a lot of work[:0]


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