# A Challenge



## ldb2000 (Aug 12, 2008)

The Challenge now has a Home 
http://www.penturners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=36211
This is the link to the Advanced Penturning Forum :bananen_smilies051: which is where it really belongs



I'm posting this here because I didn't want to wake anybody up over in the Advanced Penmaking forum . :devil:
I'm making a challenge to anybody interested , " Make a kitless pen " .
Ok , before you say " Oh no here he goes again " or " I can't do that , I don't have the tools (or skill) " or any other one of about a dozen different excuses I have heard , hear me out .
This challenge is to make a "Kitless Slimline" , any style is fine and any material is also good ( although I will tell you that wood is NOT the best stuff to use for this , any of the Plastics works best , ie; homebrew PR , Commercial Acrylics , Tru-Stone , heck even the Blue Plastic Pipe that some are selling or trading will work ) , the only requirement is that is that you use 1 or more 7mm tubes and a Slimline 7mm transmission , you can make it clipless if you want or use any old clip you have laying around ( anything from a slimline clip to a Barron clip will work , depending on how thick your finished pen will be ) .
If your interested in trying this either post here or PM me and we can work out the details , if your NOT interested please don't pollute this thread with comments like " Why the heck would I want to do this " or " I could never do this " , your input is not wanted !!!!
For those interested but are unsure if you could do it , you'll never know unless you try and those that think they don't have the right tools all you need is a lathe , some turning tools , some drill bits , and a mandrel and live center (I would hope if you are here you have at least these things :biggrin A Scroll chuck or a Collet chuck will be a big help but it's not required .
If you need some help just ask and I or (hopefully) others will help you figure out how to work around the problems.
This could be a lot of fun and a learning experience for some but to find out you gotta try .
This is NOT for just the select few that know how to do it , EVERYBODY is welcome
So Who's in?
If this takes off we can move it over to the Advanced Forum and wake a few people up , kitless pens DON'T have to be Rollerball or Fountain Pens .


Edit: After getting several requests , I have relaxed the rules for this challenge the new rules are ;
Everything is optional except the Cross style refill (Can't be a slimline without a cross style refill) and the refill must be replaceable without breaking the pen (this ain't a build a better Bic contest) and the refill tip must be covered when it is in your pocket (Don't want anyone getting ink stains on their shirt) :biggrin:


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## jthompson1995 (Aug 12, 2008)

I'm up for it, though I'm notoriously slow for making pens.  Any timeframe in mind?


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## ldb2000 (Aug 12, 2008)

Nope .
It's not a race just an experiment .


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## its_virgil (Aug 12, 2008)

Some clarification please. How does a "kitless" pen still use the kit's parts. Do you mean for this pen to be a modified slimline...i.e. one that does not look like a slimline. Or, am I missing something?
Do a good turn daily!
Don


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## Larry Gottlieb (Aug 12, 2008)

*I'll try it.*

My problem is that I don't think that I have ever seen a kitless pen.
Does this mean we make the nib and finial?

Larry


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## ldb2000 (Aug 12, 2008)

Hey Don , if you can make a TRUE kitless Slimline PLEASE make one , I for one would love to see it done .
For the purpose of the Challenge the term "kitless" means that the only MANUFACTURED parts that are allowed are the 7mm tubes and the Transmission (Both of which DO NOT have to be purchased in a kit , I just bought 7 mm tubes and transmissions from woodpenpro in bulk so they are not part of a kit exactly).
Clips from any kit are allowed because they are the one sticky point in kitless pens but a clip is not required
But if you insist on semantics then call it a Modified Slimline Challenge


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## ldb2000 (Aug 12, 2008)

Larry the answer is YES you must make your own nib and finial .
Not as hard to do as you might think .
Look in my photo album and you will find a few that I posted and there have been several other people that have made them also , search "Kitless" and "Modified slimline" for some examples .


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## ldb2000 (Aug 12, 2008)

Guys , I'm not trying to be rude (although some may think I am) but I did ask that if you DON'T want in , keep your negative comments to yourselves . I don't want to waste bandwidth defending MY Challenge .
Thank You


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## MarkHix (Aug 12, 2008)

Sounds like a great chance to improve and learn.  I'm may be slow but I am in!


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## its_virgil (Aug 12, 2008)

Thanks Butch, that's much better.  I'm not insisting on semantics, just rules, which are much clearer now. I'm not trying to be difficult, really I'm not.
Do a good turn daily!
Don


ldb2000 said:


> Hey Don , if you can make a TRUE kitless Slimline PLEASE make one , I for one would love to see it done .
> For the purpose of the Challenge the term "kitless" means that the only MANUFACTURED parts that are allowed are the 7mm tubes and the Transmission (Both of which DO NOT have to be purchased in a kit , I just bought 7 mm tubes and transmissions from woodpenpro in bulk so they are not part of a kit exactly).
> Clips from any kit are allowed because they are the one sticky point in kitless pens but a clip is not required
> But if you insist on semantics then call it a Modified Slimline Challenge


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## ldb2000 (Aug 12, 2008)

No problem Don .
I'm still standing on my original use of the words "Kitless Slimline" in as much as a Slimline kit does not need to be purchased as you CAN buy 7mm tubes and transmissions separately , as for the clip ,"It's Optional" because as you know clips are the one thing that makes a TRUE kitless pen very hard to make unless you are one of the lucky people with access to metal working equipment (heck I'm stuck with Pewter or PMC to make clips from , they work but to be strong enough they have to be a little thicker then I like) .
If you can , how about joining us on this little adventure into (semi?)kitless pen making ?
I'm sure with your knowledge you could answer some of the questions that I can't and help make this a great learning experience and fun for everyone involved .


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## shull (Aug 12, 2008)

Sounds interesting,  I have never tried a "kitless" pen but am willing to expand my horizons.


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## Russianwolf (Aug 12, 2008)

I'm up for the attempt, as soon as I get through turning for the troops that is.


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## its_virgil (Aug 12, 2008)

OK, I'm in. I just came in from the shop and playing with making the nib. I think this will be fun.
Do a good turn daily!
Don


ldb2000 said:


> If you can , how about joining us on this little adventure into (semi?)kitless pen making ?
> I'm sure with your knowledge you could answer some of the questions that I can't and help make this a great learning experience and fun for everyone involved .


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## ldb2000 (Aug 12, 2008)

Great Don , glad to see your in and I hope that some of the other Big Names (the people here , like you , I respect and admire the most) will join in as well .
I would also like to invite all the Lurkers here (you know who you are , I was one myself) stop just reading and start having fun with the rest of us , I'm sure that some things will be learned that may help you with your penmaking and who knows you might just teach us a thing or too as well .
Theres no time frame and no prizes but I'm sure we will all get something from this Challenge .


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## fiferb (Aug 12, 2008)

Since you said there is no time frame for completion, I'm in. I have several things to make before I can start but that will give me time to put my thinking cap on and do some research.


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## Hosspen (Aug 12, 2008)

I like a challenge (and this will be a challenge for me as i don't have a scroll chuck or collet chuck) I'm thinking "how can I use or modify my 4-jaw chuck to hold something small as a pen centered in it?".  Any ideas on that? 
 The problem-solving has already started and that's where a lot of learning takes place.  Thanks Butch!  It's going to be very interesting!
 I'm on the slow side too.


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## ldb2000 (Aug 12, 2008)

Hoss , What 4 jaw chuck do you have , I'm quite sure we can make it work for you .


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## Paul in OKC (Aug 12, 2008)

It can be done. Here is one I did a few years ago just to do something different. I did use the clip. Other 'kit' parts are made from corian.


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## cozee (Aug 12, 2008)

It is "kitless" as described and only took about 10 minutes. I didn't polish the brass though, just trying to see how quickly it could be done!!!!!


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## LEAP (Aug 12, 2008)

If you want kitless slimlines take a look through skiprats album. He does them all the time. They can be good inspirations for anyone attempting your challenge. Would you accept one with out the tubes? Just the transmission and refill?


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## ldb2000 (Aug 12, 2008)

Yep it's kitless , not exactly what I had in mind but it is within the rules and as such is allowable , and thank you for an idea .
for everyone wondering how to "make a nib" , here's your first solution "Bite the Bullet" well not literally but you could try using a "Copper" (I do believe they are copper) bullet from a cartridge , just drill it out and figure how to attach it to the 7mm tube .
Greg thank you , Do you think you might be willing to answer any questions along these lines ?


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## ldb2000 (Aug 12, 2008)

Phill if you want to try , please do , I suggested tubes because after some experimenting I found that in normal use the glued in transmission eventually broke loose and the pen fell apart , but if you have a way to insure against this happening we are all ears


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## ldb2000 (Aug 12, 2008)

Paul , Thank you :worship:, that is exactly what I am talking about , the Corian idea is fantastic , gotta try that one myself .


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## Modelmaker (Aug 13, 2008)

I'll join in. I need to get a couple of commissions finished first.

Should we post pics here?


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## avbill (Aug 13, 2008)

Just so every one knows  Russ Fairfield  in his videos goes over how to make a kitless slimline.  I'm in  but with one  thing different no 7mm tube  now that's just me!


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## Blind_Squirrel (Aug 13, 2008)

Does it HAVE to have the tubes?

Here is one I did only using a transmission:





It started out as a piece of 1/2" aluminium rod.


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## Gagler (Aug 13, 2008)

As a long-time lurker who is now participating, please count me in.  No guarantee as to the results, but it should be a challenge!


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## brez (Aug 13, 2008)

I'll give it a try.

Mike


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## hehndc (Aug 13, 2008)

I'm in, time to stretch the envelope.

Steve


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## bananajeep (Aug 13, 2008)

Count me in this looks like fun.

Mike


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## Hosspen (Aug 13, 2008)

Butch,
My 4-jaw chuck is a nova G3 by Teknatool.  I haven't used it in a while but think the inside is a little too big to hold a small pen sized object. I know the jaws are way big for that.  Any suggestions are appreciated!


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## cozee (Aug 13, 2008)

ldb2000 said:


> Yep it's kitless , not exactly what I had in mind but it is within the rules and as such is allowable , and thank you for an idea .
> for everyone wondering how to "make a nib" , here's your first solution "Bite the Bullet" well not literally but you could try using a "Copper" (I do believe they are copper) bullet from a cartridge , just drill it out and figure how to attach it to the 7mm tube .
> Greg thank you , Do you think you might be willing to answer any questions along these lines ?



Copper they are. Albeit most are copper clad lead. There are solid copper rounds available which is highly recommended over the lead centered ones. Safety issues ya know!!!


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## ldb2000 (Aug 14, 2008)

Ok , after a bad day (back problems) , I'm back .
First I want to say thanks to everyone that has so far joined us in this little quest into ....errr....(here it is Whether you know it or not) ADVANCED PENMAKING :bananen_smilies051:
First , for the noobs (new to this kind of penmaking and in some cases new to penmaking and this forum) when you decide what kind of pen you want to make , think about what materials you want to use and if they are suitable for your design and your talents ( I would hate to see someone waste an expensive piece of Tru-stone or other special blank ) so ask questions if your not sure .
Remember , for you , this will be a good learning experience , the things you learn here will even help you make better kit pens . 
Try to figure things out for yourself , ask about anything that may concern Safety issues (no one should get hurt trying a new way to hold a blank or drill a hole), learn to use the "Search" feature of the forum and use it , there are tons of information here in these forums on just about anything penmaking and if you can't find what your looking for ask , I'm sure someone will have an answer for you .
And also remember , as Stevers has in his signature line , "The only dumb question is the one that you haven't asked yet" .

Second , for the People that have a working knowledge of the more advanced techniques , PLEASE help whenever you can , remember , you once didn't know which end of a skew to use , ok so I exaggerate a bit , but you know what I mean . Try to NOT chastise someone for asking a noob question , and answer if you can , don't just refer them to the search , sometimes you just don't know how to ask the search engine the right question .

I'm collecting names of who's in (so far we have 15 definite and a few that will be hearing from me) and will post them all in a day or two , I'm still hoping to see some other more advanced turners get involved ( Guys , this is what this place is supposed to be all about , helping others ) , and some more Lurkers ( I promise , we won't bite .... I Hope :laugh come on people stop reading and JOIN US .

Start thinking about what kind of semikitless slimline you want to make (Basic slimline , Longwood/Sierra , Elegant Beauty , etc) and what you want to make it from (Acrylic , Tru-stone , etc) and remember to tell us what you are trying to make when you ask any questions about making it .

I think that's it , if I think of anything else you'll be hearing from me (whether you want to or not :biggrin


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## ldb2000 (Aug 14, 2008)

Blind_Squirrel said:


> Does it HAVE to have the tubes?
> 
> Here is one I did only using a transmission:
> 
> ...


 
Ok Scott Tubes are optional



Hosspen said:


> Butch,
> My 4-jaw chuck is a nova G3 by Teknatool. I haven't used it in a while but think the inside is a little too big to hold a small pen sized object. I know the jaws are way big for that. Any suggestions are appreciated!


 
Hoss do you have any other jaw sets , like the Pin Jaws or the Step jaws ?



cozee said:


> Copper they are. Albeit most are copper clad lead. There are solid copper rounds available which is highly recommended over the lead centered ones. Safety issues ya know!!!


 
Greg are these Copper bullets available anywhere special ?, and yes Safety First so No lead bullets


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## theturningcircle (Aug 14, 2008)

Count me in. This should be fun.
Ian


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## rjwolfe3 (Aug 14, 2008)

I'm willing to try.


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## Hosspen (Aug 14, 2008)

*modifying a chuck to hold a pen*

"Hoss do you have any other jaw sets , like the Pin Jaws or the Step jaws ?"

Butch , I'm afraid not.  That doesn't sound like something I can make, is it?  I thought about ripping a piece of PVC pipe lengthwise & center it in the middle of my chuck, Has anyone out here tried that before?   Any other ideas?


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## bitshird (Aug 14, 2008)

Butch; since I'm always up for something different (strange) me thinks I'll give it a try. it'll take a few weeks since I can use my buggered hand a little bit, plus after seeing the blue one you did a few days back, I have an idea


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## Russianwolf (Aug 14, 2008)

Hosspen said:


> I like a challenge (and this will be a challenge for me as i don't have a scroll chuck or collet chuck) I'm thinking "how can I use or modify my 4-jaw chuck to hold something small as a pen centered in it?".  Any ideas on that?
> The problem-solving has already started and that's where a lot of learning takes place.  Thanks Butch!  It's going to be very interesting!
> I'm on the slow side too.



Hoss, One solution is to use a blank that is longer than you need.

Say the section you want to work on is 3 inches long. Cut a 4 inch piece of stock and you'll have an extra 3/4+ to hold in the chuck while you turn the remainder down to pen size.


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## Chuck Key (Aug 14, 2008)

I am usually up for a challenge. I am going with the guidelines in the first post with tubes and twist mech to be included. I have roughed in a nib and final from a titaninum bar breaking only three dirll bits :bulgy-eyes:. It needs final adjustment, polishing final assembly and if all goes a planned should be fininshed soon. Here is a preview pic.


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## BRobbins629 (Aug 14, 2008)

I will probably try something - just not sure when, but like you said this is not a race.


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## RussFairfield (Aug 14, 2008)

*does this one qualify??*

I had one of these in my album and just discovered the album disappeared with the old forum, and I can't find the magic key to post another photo. So you will have to either take my word for it or go here to see it.

www.woodturner-russ.com/kitlessslimline.html

The only kit parts are the transmission, the ink infill, and the lower brass tube because I couldn't make the transmission work any other way.


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## workinforwood (Aug 14, 2008)

I'd like to try myself too.

Hoss...with a 4 jaw chuck you can do it...heck you can do it with a face-plate.  With a chuck you can make your own jaws out of plywood...people do it all the time, especially for making their own cole jaws for holding bowls.  There's other options too, like spining a piece to fit the jaws that is hollow in the center and sliced on the sides.  Basically like a pipe that you cut on the sides near the ends and then you jam the wood into it and it holds, or if that isn't good enough, a round hose clamp to squeeze on your wood.  Or you can make a pin chuck that attaches into your jaws or just onto a face plate...there's a multitude of options you have with or without just a standard chuck.  And then...who says the pen even has to be round ???  Anyhow...I'm in for a go at it.


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## handplane (Aug 14, 2008)

OK, I'll bite.  I'm new here but am up for a challenge.  I was already thinking of this and now have a reason to go forward with my idea.  Have to make a couple others first at the request of SWMBO.


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## Daniel (Aug 14, 2008)

Great challenge, I don't have a picture of one of my 50 cal pens. But they are the most kit less pens I have made. I even pointed out to my family, "Now this is pen (Making)" when we where doing them. I cheat though cause my bullets did have lead.
I will see if I can come up with another idea that makes a more functional pen though.
I really like that aluminum rod pen, great job.


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## bitshird (Aug 14, 2008)

Butch; Do we have to use a tube??? can we get by with just a tranny and refill ??


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## ldb2000 (Aug 14, 2008)

Hi Everybody .
Just got home from work and just couldn't wait to see how we are progressing here and I'm so happy to see the turnout we have so far , I'm also happy to see some new names and some long time members as well .
Ok now down to business . I'm changing the rules (NO throwing blanks at me , unless they are really nice :smile-big several people have asked if they can build their pens with NO tubes so the new rules are everything is optional except a cross style refill , after all it wouldn't be a slimline without a cross style refill (I still want to see a TRUE kitless slimline and I might just try to pull one off) .
Now for you big guys (not in size just reputation) I think that for this Challenge you should make a new pen (please PM me if this is a problem) , no entering your past achievements , after all , you might have forgotten how to make one :tongue: (HEY!!! I said no throwing blanks , at least not just plain walnut) , come up with something different just to keep it interesting .
For you guys or girls thinking of making a cartridge (bullet) pen they ARE allowed but try to think outside the box and make yours different in some way (there's something to think about) .
For everyone else just remember "BE SAFE" don't try any new way to hold a blank or drill a hole or turn a part unless you are sure you can do it without getting hurt .
I'll answer any questions a little later

HAVE FUN :bananen_smilies051:


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## cozee (Aug 14, 2008)

> Greg are these Copper bullets available anywhere special ?



Reloading suppliers.
And speaking of a 50 cal . . .


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## DSallee (Aug 14, 2008)

Hey Butch... GREAT idea! It's time I started thinking out of the "kit" box myself...LOL

I have limited tools (no chuck or anything) but you betcha I'm gonna give it a whirl!!

Dave


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## Hosspen (Aug 14, 2008)

Jeff and Mike ,
Thanks for those neat ideas. I believe with people like you all the challenge will be less intimidating and more of a fun learning process. Thanks! I can't wait to try some of these ideas!


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## ldb2000 (Aug 15, 2008)

Hoss another idea , take a block of wood (I would think hard maple or ash would work best) 2" or 3" square and about 1" thick and turn it into a round disk then drill a 1/2" hole in the middle then use a bandsaw or even a hand saw (you want a thinner kerf) and kerf on the flat sides at the 12 , 3 , 6 , and 9 O'Clock positions about 3/4" through then turn the wood over and do the same thing at the 1:30 , 4:30 , 7:30 and 10:30 positions .
place this kerfed disk in your chuck and you will have a 1/2" Collet chuck .
I use the kerfing method to make Pounder Pegs for a kids workbench I make .


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## Chuck Key (Aug 15, 2008)

*Ultra Slim ChecK Book Pen*

Challenge Pen






Alternate view:


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## ldb2000 (Aug 16, 2008)

Chuckie that is COOL  .
Now that is Advanced Penmaking !!! , for everyone who didn't know what a kitless pen looks like this is the first example (and a darn good example it is) , Chuck if you wouldn't mind could you tell everyone what and how (just a simple explanation) you have made and what problems you ran into in building it .


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## cowjelly (Aug 16, 2008)

*I would like to participate.*

I would like to be included, sounds like a good chance to learn and start participating. Looking forward to it.  Thanks, Keith


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## rherrell (Aug 16, 2008)

I'm up for a challenge. I haven't made a kitless pen yet so be prepared, this could get ugly.:wink:


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## scroller99 (Aug 16, 2008)

Been awfully busy, but I would like to give it a try, will be putting my thinking cap on. Howard


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## igran7 (Aug 16, 2008)

I'm up for the challenge.  Sounds like a lot of fun.


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## Ron in Drums PA (Aug 16, 2008)

You mean like this?


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## hunter-27 (Aug 16, 2008)

It will be a first for me but I'll give it a go, Better give me a deadline or it could be after x-mas before i get done.


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## hewunch (Aug 16, 2008)

OK, here is my submission. Now, this is my very first kitless pen. Made totally out of Corian except the clip. Not near as nice as some of the others, but I learned a TON.

1. Making finials, are not that hard.

2. Making nibs are a ROYAL PAIN.
  I had to drill out the hole for the cartridge before even turning the nib.

Made tons of mistakes. I would not sell this one (not out of pride but out of embarrassment). 
Anyways, here ya go.


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## Mr Vic (Aug 16, 2008)

Two quick questions: Does the pen have to retract and do you have to use a transmission? Ya got my brain going on this....probably what hurts....Regardless I'm a newby but Im in


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## bitshird (Aug 16, 2008)

I thought the  requirements were it had to use a cross refill, a transmission and a custom created finial, tubes are optional, I might be wrong, not likely, but possibly, :biggrin:


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## ldb2000 (Aug 16, 2008)

Hi Everyone

Ken , After giving in on the tubes I relaxed the rules a little , now everything but the cross style refill is optional , I think that this will make it even more interesting however these CANNOT be throw away pens so you MUST be able to change the refill without breaking the pen , Hans nice try ,it looks great but can you change the refill? .
Vic , No it don't have to retract but we don't want anyone ruining a shirt because the ink from a non retractable pen got all over the pocket so figure out a workaround for that problem .
Remember everyone , this is an exercise in problem solving as well as making a kitless slimline pen .
Ron , That is a beautiful kitless pen , but did you make it for this challenge or is it a past work ?


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## hewunch (Aug 16, 2008)

Yes it is refillable. Pull on the nib and the lower tube, tranny and refill come out.


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## ldb2000 (Aug 16, 2008)

Hans don't sell yourself short that is a perfect example of a kitless slimline , I like it .
I'm guessing you twist the nib to retract the refill , it's kinda like a longwood or a sierra with a very short grip section .
The corian is a real nice choice of material and makes a great looking pen .
I really do wish we had a thumbs up smiley .

Ok now lets start working on clips , the kit clips are nice but they are still kit clips .
Lets see some examples of homemade clips , this is the part that has the kitless guys stumped there are many ways of doing it , some have used wood some have used brass strips some have used sterling silver strips and some have used PMC (precious metal clay) , I cast my custom clips from pewter . they all have their drawbacks but they are still all custom clips , so think about how to do that .
Here's a kitless slimline with a gold plated cast pewter clip that I made a few months back.


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## Ron in Drums PA (Aug 17, 2008)

ldb2000 said:


> Hi Everyone
> 
> Ron , That is a beautiful kitless pen , but did you make it for this challenge or is it a past work ?




This was something I made a while back. 

Sorry if I missed the requirement that it needed to be current.


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## rherrell (Aug 17, 2008)

Let's start by showing the materials I used......




Acrylic blank, a piece of 1/2" Delrin, refill, tranny, 8-32X1" screw, tube, clip and 1/4" brass rod.
Here's the finished parts before assembly..........


 

Finished pen...........




It took me all day yesterday to make but that includes a couple of tools I had to make. First was a drill bit extension and second was a little jig to hold the final for turning and polishing. Working with Delrin is pretty neat too. It turns beautifully and threads well. It doesn't polish to a real high shine but it's OK. Another thing about Delrin is you can't glue it so no "shortcuts" allowed!
All in all I'm happy with it. While I was making it I came up with an idea for a COMPLETELY kitless slimline. By completely I mean refill ONLY. Since I only have weekends in my shop I won't finish it until next week. You'll be the first to know "IF" I can pull it off.:wink:


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## OLDMAN5050 (Aug 17, 2008)

I think I will try to build one . not that good yet buy I will try. Some of these I see are awsome, don't expect to be that good, but being a competive person that I am ,will try


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## ldb2000 (Aug 17, 2008)

Ron in Drums PA said:


> This was something I made a while back.
> 
> Sorry if I missed the requirement that it needed to be current.


 
Ron , don't be sorry that is an absolutely beautiful pen and I'm glad you showed it , it shows the quality of work that can be accomplished without a kit , you don't need shiny chrome and gold to make a beautiful pen . 
It's not a requirement as much as a request , I'm trying to get everyone to push the envelope and make a new pen , something that they have never made before or something that they have always wanted to make or something that they have already made but want to make a better one .
I know that for some of you time is a problem and that is one of the reasons that I have not put a timeframe on this build .

Rick that is stunning . I love the stealth look , that pen just screams out to be held and used . Thank you for showing what went into making it .

Ok for the people that are making your first kitless pen , let's hear about what you want to design/build , it just might just be that someone here can help you figure out how to go about building it . I'm quite sure you all have at least one or two questions about how to do something .

Let's start working on designs . you have already seen several different designs of kitless pens , and no matter what your skill level , if you can make a kit pen you can make a kitless one

The Challenge is moving to http://www.penturners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=36211 in the Advanced Penturning Forum


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## ldb2000 (Aug 18, 2008)

*NEW HOME !!!*

Hi Everyone 
PLEASE check in over in the Advanced Penturning forum ... really ... they even dropped the secret handshake and everything ...it's ok ... I promise :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:


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