# What glue with Mesquite?



## keithz (Oct 20, 2006)

I just had a glue failure between Gorilla Glue and mesquite.  It seems that the glue failed to adhere to the brass tube and mesquite.  While turning the blank, the wood completely came off the tube.  I am certain I did everything right.

Would CA or Epoxy adhere better?  Obviously, Gorilla Glue doesn't work with mesquite.


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## JimGo (Oct 20, 2006)

Did you scuff the tubes?  How long did you let it cure?  Are you certain you got good coverage?  Was there any glue left on the tube?  How much space did you have between the tube and the blank?


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## Dario (Oct 20, 2006)

Keithz,

I always use GG on mine and never had any problem.


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## bjackman (Oct 20, 2006)

I've used PU glue on several/many mesquite pens. Jim asks some good questions.


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## keithz (Oct 20, 2006)

I scuffed the tubes.
I let it cure overnight.
I am certain I got good coverage.
I had cured glue on both ends of both blanks.
I dampened the inside of the hole prior to applying the glue.
I used a 7mm bit to drill the blank.

There was no glue remaining on the tube after the wood split off.

I used the same process as I have used on other blanks and none of them has failed.

THE GLUE IS BRAND NEW, PURCHASED 10/9/2006.


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## Blind_Squirrel (Oct 20, 2006)

How old is the glue?  I believe that G.G. has a shelf life.


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## Dario (Oct 20, 2006)

That is very weird.

I used mesquite countless times, always using GG and never had this problem. [?]


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## mrcook4570 (Oct 20, 2006)

With no glue on the tube after the wood split off, I would guess that the GG was wiped from the tube by the blank when inserting it into the hole.

I have also used GG with mesquite many times and haven't had (knock on wood) any failures yet.


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## kent4Him (Oct 20, 2006)

I also find that strange.  I assume you used the GG brand.  Others make poly glue, but Idon't think they are as good.  Elmers has theirs very thin compared with GG.


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## MesquiteMan (Oct 20, 2006)

I used GG on 50 mesquite cigars that I made for an order and did not have any problems at all.  

Besides, if you said there was absolutely no glue on the tube when the wood split then that would mean the glue did not adhere to the tube rather than a mesquite problem!

I usually use epoxy with all my pens but on that particular order I did it in assembly line fashion where I glued up a bunch at once and gg was easier.

Don't know what your problem is but I can assure you, there is no problem with gg and mesquite.


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## JimGo (Oct 20, 2006)

If the tube came out clean after the break, the GG bonded to the wood just fine; it just didn't bond to the tube.  Another question...did you wipe down the tube with DNA or another cleaning agent?  Some tubes will oxidize or get oils from your hands, wax (e.g., if you've just waxed your lathe's ways, or if you wax bushings, etc.), or other contaminants on them that will prevent the glue from properly adhering.  I've had this happen on more than one occasion, and now wear gloves when I'm gluing.  I scuff the blanks with "coarse" grit foam sanding bricks from HF until all the oxidation has been removed, and then I wipe with DNA.  When I follow this procedure, I get good results regardless of the glue I'm using.


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## JudeA (Oct 20, 2006)

I have had the same prob with gg and two part apoxie.  Now I use ca or tightbond poly from psi. ever then I had no failure. I also use tightbond3 for gluing segments and things/same as yellow wood glue.


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## TellicoTurning (Oct 20, 2006)

That's interesting... I would not have thought of using GG to glue pens... I've always use CA... Never had a problem with Mesquite... I'll have to try the GG next time I make pens..


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## bjackman (Oct 20, 2006)

> _Originally posted by keithz_
> <br />There was no glue remaining on the tube after the wood split off.



Keith,
Was there glue on the inside of the wood where it was not on the tube?


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## clement (Oct 21, 2006)

Just a little question ;
What is Gorilla glue ? and what means DNA ?
thanks


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## Dario (Oct 21, 2006)

Clement,

Gorilla glue is a brand of polyurethane glue.

DNA = Denatured Alcohol


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## DCBluesman (Oct 21, 2006)

Clement - You may also know DNA (denatured alcohol) as methylated spirits.


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## loglugger (Oct 21, 2006)

Could to much water weaken the glue. I use Elmerâ€™s Ply glue and quite using water when I put them together.
Bob


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## ctEaglesc (Oct 21, 2006)

> _Originally posted by keithz_
> <br />I scuffed the tubes.
> I let it cure overnight.
> I am certain I got good coverage.I had cured glue on both ends of both blanks.
> ...


 That's not Normal, especially in Normal Illinois[]
 Sometimes the planets are just not in correct aligment or you didn't have your tongue hanging out of your mouth at the right angle.[]
In other words you did everything "right" and "Shirt" happened.
One thing I didn't notice in everything you mentioning that you did"right" was plugging the end of the tube with wax or a potato  prioe to gluing.
I don't use GG because I don't like to wait to turn a blank after I make it, but I have used GG  in the past and haven't have any failures.
Since there was no glue on the tube ,then one can only surmise your glue coverage was not a good as you thought it was.
I would suggest you plug the leading end of the tube with wax or a potato, put glue on the tube and in the blank and try it again.
I have found that putting glue on the tube and in the hole, plugging the end of the tube(and holding your tongue just right when inserting the tube) makes a pretty good glue joint no matter what adhesive you use.
Also you didn't say hoe far you had turned the blank before thewood"split off" but I would sharpen whatever tool I was using and work on technique.It takes a heck of a catch to  split a blank off the tube with a good joint.[}]
BTW CA is the ONLY glue to use when gluing in tubes[]


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## keithz (Oct 21, 2006)

Thanks for all the replies.  You have each given me something to ponder.  I'm going to try using GG and CA again.  

When I said I did everything "right", I meant the way the tutorials show or describe.  There is no way I have the right to insinuate that the process I used is the one and only way to apply glue.  I'm just trying to learn how to make a pen.

keithz


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## Dario (Oct 21, 2006)

Keithz

Here is how I glue min using GG.

After drilling and rough sanding the tubes...

I apply glue in the hole.
Spread the glue with a bamboo (BBQ) skewer inside the hole as thin as possible, remove any excess with the skewer.
Insert the tube as little as possible w/o it falling.
Apply a bead of glue outside the tube where the hole meets the tube and along the length of the tube.
Insert the tube slowly...rotating it as it go in.  Make sure there is an even glob at the mouth of the hole which coats the tube as it go in.  Add glue if necessary.

Note:
Wear gloves
Lay the glued piece on paper (very important)
To avoid tubes from creaping out...make sure the place is level.
I don't wet the the wood.  Wood always have enough moisture to activate the GG anyways.

Hope this helps.


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## ctEaglesc (Oct 21, 2006)

> _Originally posted by keithz_
> <br />Thanks for all the replies.  You have each given me something to ponder.  I'm going to try using GG and CA again.
> 
> When I said I did everything "right", I meant the way the tutorials show or describe.  There is no way I have the right to insinuate that the process I used is the one and only way to apply glue.  I'm just trying to learn how to make a pen.
> ...


Keith-
In case you haven't guessed, I am a smart a$$(there are a few others on this forum I might add).
Some of my remarks in my reply were tongue in cheek.In truth I do use CA more than anything else, but that is because I am in a hurry normally.(I think one of the toughest thngs to learn it this art is patience and  that can also be said for other areas of woodworking.
There are  some here who can turn and finish a pen without the tubes glued in at all and don't even use them for assembly. they glue the components in.
I am not of that school, but it does prove the tubes are not necessary.
Russ Fairfield made an interesting post about the usage of glue (and tubes) or the lack of it.If I could find it I would post the link.
MY point is I normally do not turn solid blanks, that is to say most of mine are glue ups of one kind or another.
When
I am cutting and fitting pieces together I am POSITIVE I have perfect glue joints, I am POSITIVE I have complete glue coverage and yet I ahve had my share of blow outs.
I will say though I have taken steps that are NOT in the instructions as to do something as basic as  gluing in a tube.
The next time you drill a blank, look inside it and note what the inside surface looks like.
It isn't a smooth round cylindrical hole, especially if you continually back it out repeatedly while drilling.
I take the time to "plasticize'  the inside of the blank with thin CA.This may not be necessary if you use GG but what harm can it do?
My theory is the thin CA "wicks" into the wood and hardens it.It also gives a like surface to bond to.
When I first started doing this on some woods I was amazed to find the CA would "wick" its was out the sides of the blank and stick to my fingers.It depended of how dense the wood was.

I do redrill the blank  after the CA has set but I do that by holding the blank in my hand and just running the bit through it.No vice or clamp, just a piece of sandpaper wrapped around the blank coarse side in to give me a better grip.
When gluing up the tubes I also noticed that I would have most of the glue build up on the end of the blank I inserted the tube from.The end of the blank acted like a squeegee.I wasn't getting the glue in the blank I was getting most of it on the END of the blank.
It was then I Started plugging the tube with parafin wax and putting glue IN the hole.This way as I inserted the lpugged tube into the hole it would force glue inside as the tube went in. Yes it takes a litte longer to unplug the tube and clean it out if neccesary but it is cheap insurance based the amount of time we put into our work and the espectations we have for the finished  piece.
The bottom line is I do everything I can to make sure I don't get any surprises  along the way(or dissapointments).
YOUr experience was probably a quirk and you won't have any more problems.
I think the biggest clue you mentioned was there was no glue on the tube.I am guessing if you find out the casue for that(even if it is operator error) and solve that problem you'll be able to move onto other problems, really.


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## alamocdc (Oct 21, 2006)

Keith, I use epoxy on everything. Works well w/Mesquite.


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## Jamie (Oct 21, 2006)

I have used GG and masquite several times without a problem. I have a chainsaw file I run over the tubes and I apply heavier pressure in the middle to actually put some heavy scratches in the tube. That gives the GG some expantion room. This wasn't an inspired idea, I have arthritis in my hands and I don't do well holding small items like tubes so the small round file was born out of necessity. If you want to see something funny, you should see me doing O-rings."God Grant me Serenity" is often muttered in my shop.


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## loglugger (Oct 21, 2006)

Jamie, I think it was Earl that past this on to me. Us a Â¼â€ all thread with a nut on each end and tighten the tubes between the nuts. I usually do 10 at a time with 100 grit sandpaper.
Bob


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## ctEaglesc (Oct 21, 2006)

Put the tubes on a rod and "bounce" them on the bench sander.


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## Blind_Squirrel (Oct 21, 2006)

> _Originally posted by ctEaglesc_
> <br />...I Started plugging the tube with parafin wax and putting glue IN the hole.This way as I inserted the lpugged tube into the hole it would force glue inside as the tube went in.



What do you do to get the wax off of the outside of the tube after you plug it?  Do you DNA the outside of the tube after you plug it with wax?


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## ctEaglesc (Oct 21, 2006)

I scrape the edge of the tube on a bar of canning parafin.
Itamp the wax in the tube to pack it and push it flush or proud of the edge.
To get the wax OUT of the tube I use a mall drill bit  and"twist"  it out.
It sounds more complicated that it is.
I sometimes need and exacto knife to clean the inside of the tube.


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## KenV (Oct 21, 2006)

One other thought -- you noted that you were using a 7mm drill bit, and I assume that you are using slimline or 7mm euro tubes (or similar).  There is a strong group of recommendations that you not use a 7mm drill bit because there is too little clearance between the tube and the wood.  I think Bill Baumback has stopped selling 7mm bits and now recommends using the "J" sized bit for 7mm tubes.  The joint could have been glue starved.  

Try changing to a "J" bit and regluing.  Odds are that it will work better.


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