# Reality....



## Smitty37 (Dec 29, 2013)

When and why did we get in the habit of talking about "personal" reality?  And, just what does that mean?

To me reality is reality - what is real is real.  If it is reality it is reality for you, reality for me and reality for the guy behind that tree.  

I think the implication is that if we all have our "personal reality" there is no reality.  

We have also started taking staged, far out situations and creating a TV show out of them.  We then call that Reality TV...well the TV show is real enough but the word is intended to imply that what is seen is real life situations, which it is not....


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## sbell111 (Dec 29, 2013)

I think that you are making too much out of the issue.  The poster was speaking of his personal experience which obviously differs from that of others.


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## Akula (Dec 29, 2013)

Reality is only a matter of perception.

Interesting concept.  What you see, hear, taste, smell, and feel is your reality.  If I am color blind, I do not see as you do.  It's my reality even if it differs from yours.

If a person suffers from a "psychosis", is their reality any less real to them?

In our dreams, how do we know we don't create a reality that is destroyed when we wake up?  How do we know we are not part of someone (or something's) elses dream now?  What happens to us, when it wakes?

Just typing here, kinda bored letting dinner settle and I have no idea what lead to this thread.


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## Smitty37 (Dec 29, 2013)

I would say that the reality is that you are color blind which changes your perception of what color you see. Perception is not necessarily reality.  Magicians make their living out of that fact.  

Because something appears to be real to 'some' people does not make it real.  It makes someones perception wrong.


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## Smitty37 (Dec 29, 2013)

sbell111 said:


> I think that you are making too much out of the issue. The poster was speaking of his personal experience which obviously differs from that of others.


 If he had said his personal experience was .... I would have no problem with that. But, should we make reality into what we've made morality? Where there is no standard of what is real. My house is real, what I see often is not. When I look at the moon I see two of them, that does not mean there are two moons for me, it means I have a problem with my eyesight.


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## mark james (Dec 29, 2013)

You doing OK?


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## 08K.80 (Dec 29, 2013)

Did you choose the red pill, or the blue pill? :biggrin:


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## robutacion (Dec 29, 2013)

Smitty37 said:


> When and why did we get in the habit of talking about "personal" reality?  And, just what does that mean?
> 
> To me reality is reality - what is real is real.  If it is reality it is reality for you, reality for me and reality for the guy behind that tree.
> 
> ...



Oh boy, oh boy Smithy...!, I couldn't disagree more with you on "most" of your statements above, in fact, I'm surprised that for someone like you, at a tender age you reached so far, you would say something like that, with all due respect, didn't you learn something's in life after all this time, mate...???

I have no idea what brought your comments up but, in this case, is irrelevant, and I'm glad to believe that you are incorrect (in my view), I wouldn't wanted to give my realities to others nor I have any desire to get the realities of others, there are "lots" of people out there that have, are and will be experience a lot worse realities than mine.

One of the reasons why we as humans are so different, is due to the fact that, each one of us develop our own identity mainly due to what our realities are, they mold each one of us from the very beginning, and keep doing so, through out our life's.

What is a reality to me, can not be a reality to you and others and vice versa, reality is what each individual encounter in their everyday life's, regardless if is self imposed, just pure luck or, being extremely unlucky.

Destiny..??? maybe, we create half of it, the other half is beyond anyone's control, the realities we are born with vary considerably, the realities we experience in our life time, are a combination of all these things...!

Now, keep in mind that, saying all this, doesn't make me right and you wrong or vice versa, my realities make me believe that you are not correct, regardless if you are or not, in the end of the day, we both will continue living our realities, and they are very different from each other, I can see...!

So, this is only my opinion, and I will stick with it...!:wink::biggrin:

Cheers
George


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## Flaturner (Dec 29, 2013)

*Perception?*

Reality is reality.  How you perceive it does not change it.  I call to your remembrance the story of the blind men and the elephant.  Each had his perception of the elephant: rope, snake, tree trunk, wall; but none of them changed the reality of what an elephant is.


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## Brian G (Dec 29, 2013)

*W*ood *T*urner's *F*inish. . . . Smitty, you challenged my observation in the red ink thread by making the statement,  _"That's an ad hoc observation and might or might not represent reality."_and now there's a thread about reality, where you state above, _If he had said his personal experience was . . ._ "

I thought that's what I was doing. . . relating my personal experience.  You brought up the "reality" thing, not me.


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## Smitty37 (Dec 29, 2013)

robutacion said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > When and why did we get in the habit of talking about "personal" reality? And, just what does that mean?
> ...


George Real is Real, your opinion is real and it is your opinion to you, your opinion to me and your opinion to the guy behind that tree.  It might be based on correct facts, incorrect facts or no facts at all hence me and the guy behind the tree might have different opinions.  Never-the-less your opinion is real.  I am free to, and in this case, do hold another opinion and my opinion is also real to both of us.

Perception and reality are not the same George.  As I said when I look up at a full moon (or any other moon) I see two of them.  Reality is there is only one there and my perception of two is just not real.   I have a problem with my binocular vision and if I were the only person in the world looking at the full moon I would think there were really two of them traveling side by side....but even in that case reality would still be that there is only one moon.

I think you are confusing realities and experience.  Your experiences might shape your life and might be different from my experiences but if you were poor when you were young and went without shoes and I was rich and had two pairs the reality is the same I had shoes and you didn't - the experience was different.

And, unlike you, I won't imply that you didn't learn anything in your life.


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## mark james (Dec 29, 2013)

Do threads like this happen often ???


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## sbell111 (Dec 29, 2013)

Often enough


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## Smitty37 (Dec 29, 2013)

Brian G said:


> *W*ood *T*urner's *F*inish. . . . Smitty, you challenged my observation in the red ink thread by making the statement, _"That's an ad hoc observation and might or might not represent reality."_and now there's a thread about reality, where you state above, _If he had said his personal experience was . . ._ "
> 
> I thought that's what I was doing. . . relating my personal experience. You brought up the "reality" thing, not me.


 
Whether you were stating your personal experience or not your statement describes an Ad Hoc observation. I stated that and made the allowance that an ad hoc observatiion might or might not represent reality. 

You then said you disagreed with it being Ad Hoc. If you were correcting college papers you should realize what ad hoc is. It does not deny or challenge the validity of your observation, it simply says we can't apply your specific observation as a general rule to the others correcting  papers.


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## sbell111 (Dec 29, 2013)

Why does it matter?  You certainly knew what he meant.


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## Smitty37 (Dec 29, 2013)

mark james said:


> Do threads like this happen often ???


This is casual conversation where about anything not political or religious goes....


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## Smitty37 (Dec 29, 2013)

sbell111 said:


> Why does it matter? You certainly knew what he meant.


Also, he should have known what I meant -- someone smart enough to be correcting college level papers should know what ad hoc means. 

And, it the same vein, what difference does it make to you? You probably knew what we both meant. 

You like to argue with me and that's perfectly alright with me -- Curtis once said I'd argue with a fence post and he wasn't too far from wrong.

NO I am not implying that you are a fence post....


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## tbroye (Dec 29, 2013)

:biggrin::at-wits-end:Reality=It is dark and cold in Sacramento, Ca My wife is watching QVC, which will cost us money and Dallas is 1 point behind Philly. I take white, redish brown, yellow and blue pills but the Merlot really change my reality.


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## Smitty37 (Dec 29, 2013)

*Reason for thread.*

I started this thread to move some of the discussion, which has nothing much to do with teachers using or not using red ink to correct student's work away from that thread.


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## sbwertz (Dec 29, 2013)

*Merriam Webster:
*

*re·al·i·ty*

_noun_ \rē-ˈa-lə-tē\                                                                                                                                                                                                                   : the true situation that exists : the real situation
: something that actually exists or happens : a real event, occurrence, situation, etc.


_plural_ *re·al·i·ties*


*Full Definition of REALITY*

1
*:*  the quality or state of being real 

2
_a _ _(1)_ *:*  a real event, entity, or state of affairs <his dream became a _reality_>  _(2)_ *:*  the totality of real things and events <trying to escape from _reality_>   
_b_ *:*  something that is neither derivative nor dependent but exists necessarily 

3
*:*   television programming that features videos of actual occurrences (as a  police chase, stunt, or natural disaster) —often used attributively <_reality_ TV> 
— *in reality* *:*  in actual fact 


*Examples of REALITY*



the difference between fiction and _reality_
The _reality_ is that we can't afford to buy a house.
He used television as an escape from _reality_.
They made the plan a _reality_




_****************_

*ad hoc*

_adverb_ \ˈad-ˈhäk, -ˈhōk; ˈäd-ˈhōk\



*Definition of AD HOC*

*:*  for the particular end or case at hand without consideration of wider application 

*Origin of AD HOC*

Latin, for thisFirst Known Use: 1659




*2ad hoc*

_adjective_                                                                                                                                                                                                                   : formed or used for a special purpose
: made or done without planning because of an immediate need


*Full Definition of AD HOC*

1
_a_ *:*  concerned with a particular end or purpose <an _ad hoc_ investigating committee>   
_b_ *:*  formed or used for specific or immediate problems or needs <_ad hoc_ solutions> 

2
*:*  fashioned from whatever is immediately available *:* improvised <large _ad hoc_ parades and demonstrations  — Nat Hentoff> 



*Examples of AD HOC*



The mayor appointed an *ad hoc committee* to study the project.
We had to make some _ad hoc_ changes to the plans.
We'll hire more staff on an _ad hoc_ basis.


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## Smitty37 (Dec 29, 2013)

One thing that has come to me from this thread is that there are folks who think that perception is reality.   Many have tried to take advantage of that for thousands of years.   They attempt to make their opponent think that they were doing one thing while, in reality, they're really doing something else.  Some here would argue that the opponent's reality is what he perceives them to be doing.

Some think their personal experience is "personal reality".  If they threw a stone to chase a crow out of the corn field they believe that is their personal reality --- when in fact, from a stand point of what is real, it is everybody's reality it is their personal experience.  They really threw that stone.

Others seem to think that if we think something is real, that makes it real whether it is real or not.  My view of that is it doesn't make it real, if it's real it's real if it's not our thinking is wrong.  The false does not become true because we think it's true.  If the entire population of the whole world thinks I have $10.00 in my pocket and I don't have any money at all - the population is wrong.  The reality is I don't have a dime and everyone (including myself) thinking I do have money doesn't change the reality.


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## tbroye (Dec 29, 2013)

Reality  The Cowboy are not going to the playoffs


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## Janster (Dec 29, 2013)

Really?


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## Brian G (Dec 29, 2013)

I pre-planned to use a different color of ink, and considered a wider application for all of my sections that I taught, if it made a difference in reactions to my grading.


Not ad hoc.


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## robutacion (Dec 29, 2013)

> Perception and reality are not the same George.  As I said when I look up at a full moon (or any other moon) I see two of them.  Reality is there is only one there and my perception of two is just not real.   I have a problem with my binocular vision and if I were the only person in the world looking at the full moon I would think there were really two of them traveling side by side....but even in that case reality would still be that there is only one moon.
> 
> I think you are confusing realities and experience.  Your experiences might shape your life and might be different from my experiences but if you were poor when you were young and went without shoes and I was rich and had two pairs the reality is the same I had shoes and you didn't - the experience was different.
> 
> And, unlike you, I won't imply that you didn't learn anything in your life.



Go steady on that axe my friend, I meant no offence and you know exactly what I meant...!:wink::biggrin:

I just read the magnificent post from our friend Sharon and while she provided an accurate and certified definition of some of the words in discussion in this thread, and what I read confirms my believe of what reality is and why I strongly believe that reality, can be interpreted in many ways that doesn't mean, one is more correct than the other so, I still believe that, ones realities are a direct correlation to ones experiences and this may explain the tremendous complexity and diversity of the human behaviour...!

As for arguing with a fence post, I have done that multiple times and quite honestly, I have had better responses from it than what I get sometimes with people, after all, isn't that true the we wood turners, listen to what the wood has to say...!:biggrin::wink:

Potatoes, potatos, all the same...!

I'm going to my work-shop cut some blanks out of my old Colonial Red Gum Burls, does anyone want some...!:wink:

Cheers
George


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## sbell111 (Dec 30, 2013)

*Pedantic*

_adjective_                                                                                                                                                                                                           : overly concerned with minute details or formalisms, esp. in teaching.


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## sbell111 (Dec 30, 2013)

<snip>


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## Krudwig (Dec 30, 2013)

I guess this is an open discussion and one which I feel I could contribute.  I believe in truth and reality as being absolute. I have no idea what the argument is about but I will try to give my opinion even if not wanted. Reality is what is real and true. The reality of the cowboys not making the playoffs is true regardless of my perceptions of that truth or reality. I have often heard the expression that perception is reality, which of course it is not. This statement comes from the concept that truth is relevant (I.e. What is true for me may not be true for you. That truth is subject to ones own experiences.) I think that reality is like truth in the fact that opinions, and perceptions do not alter either. So if a person perceives life one way it may be his own personal reality but it doesn't alter what is real. Now this view of a linear truth and reality is not popular because it excludes alternate realities and truth and demands that there only be one. Just because a person perceives reality one way doesn't alter what is real! I'm sorry it just doesn't. America is a society which demands tolerance, but in the name of tolerance we've moved from a society which believes everybody has a right to his or her opinions to one which believes every opinions are equally right! My opinions, or perceptions never change what is absolute and true nor does it change reality no matter how much I want it to. Now I don't know what this has to do with pens or the joy of sharing ones passions for the hobby and is not intended to offend anyone in anyway, I'm just trying to participate in the the conversation.


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## rd_ab_penman (Dec 30, 2013)

My grade 3 teacher lined up all the boys in the class each morning and gave each of us one whack with the razor strap on each hand before class started.
That was reality!!
And yes, she used red ink.

Les


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## Frank Nemke sr (Dec 30, 2013)

*FIGHT*



Smitty37 said:


> sbell111 said:
> 
> 
> > Why does it matter? You certainly knew what he meant.
> ...


 
I dug out the old gloves and dusted them off, set four posts to make a ring  ;WAIT ! 4 posts ! does a ring have corners? Why do they call it a ring?========Is that realaity?      Do I get the chance to sell tickets?      God, I love this site.


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## robutacion (Dec 30, 2013)

Well, I strongly support the right and freedom to speak freely and express my thoughts without being concerned about censuring and/or reprisals.  Is also my strong believe that, this is a place where we are given simple rules when it comes to participation and mutual respect, I believe that, this is also a place where, many "rosters" are allowed to share the high spots and for me, the defining factor is when mature/adult people are capable to express their thoughts, opinions and differences, without getting into childish behaviour, going over that limit, makes me look the other way and as far as I'm concerned, all bets are off...!

Anyone is allowed to start a "conversation" in its appropriate place, this exact one so, and as a conversation, a rant or simply expression ones opinion, is done so other can participate, no one opens a tread to talk to him/herself, only so, the thread opening is an open and public invitation, for anyone that has something to say, regardless if is in agreeance or disagreement.

So, no one is arguing, or fighting, we are discussing the various interpretations of the OP subject and learning something in the process, not being important to point out what that could be, after all we all take something/lesson from it and we do everyday in our life's so, when the smoke settles down, everyone will realise that, was never a fire present, but simply someone's heavy breathing, fogging up the air...!:wink::biggrin:

We all have more important things to concentrate on, at the door steps of a brand new year so, lets hope we all be here in 2014, and do some more "conversating", oops...! I better change this word to "converse"/conversations, (I can't believe what the dictionary says it can mean, ouch...!)

So peoples, have a :beer: and enjoy life...!

Cheers
George


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## OLDMAN5050 (Dec 30, 2013)

All this is too deep for me.............


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## powertool-junkie (Dec 30, 2013)

I cant believe you guys have this much free time to waste. i'm going to turn pens.


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## tbroye (Dec 30, 2013)

When my Granddaughter gets we will be out in the shop turning pens.  In the mean time I will read and post in this and other threads.  Reality will have to wait until I get a few cups of coffee in me.


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## thebillofwrites (Dec 30, 2013)

tbroye said:


> Reality  The Cowboy are not going to the playoffs




Try being a Browns fan.

Talk about a harsh "Reality"


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## tbroye (Dec 30, 2013)

That is harsh reality.  I am not a Cowboy fan, my Brother in law is and I feel for him.  I am a life long Niner fan, Don't like the idea of going to GB that is cold, not a big fan of the current QB either, but I am old and favor the old school non decorated types.


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## Olsarge (Dec 30, 2013)

reality seems to have gone the way of truth.  Whatever you believe is the truth or reality.  there is no absolute any longer.  post modernism.


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## maxwell_smart007 (Dec 30, 2013)

Fun little argument.  

Rene Descartes summed this up by saying "Cogito ergo sum" - all we can know is that we are aware of our own thoughts - all else is clouded by `interpretation`of the senses. 

Have you ever heard of a mirage?  Have you been fooled by an illusion?  If the eyes can be deceived sometimes, how can we know when to trust them - the same with all the senses.   

When I see 'blue' - how do I know that you're seeing that same 'blue' - the colour of the item is actually every colour except blue, as it absorbs all those colours and reflects the blue to our eyes...but what if there's a function of the brain where each person sees 'blue' differently - deep within, in a yet undiscovered process, the brain may process my blue into what is 'red' to you.   

Whether or not we agree on what_ is_ real - the way we are built means that we all have no choice but to _interpret_ what is real - so it's best to think of reality as 'perception' - as we all have to interpret what our fallible senses show us.  

Did you know that by probing a certain area of the brain, a neurologist could make me smell burned toast or move my hand.  How do I know I'm not just a brain in a jar of formaldehyde, hooked up by electrodes to a supercomputer, which is manipulating "EVERYTHING"?  Therefore, all this 'perception of reality' is just an illusion - we only know that we can try to perceive reality - all the rest is a guess!  

All of our senses have a delay - it takes time to get a sound wave, or a ray of light from a distant star - therefore, we're not perceiving reality, but rather a vision of the past.  Our 'present' is a fabrication - we're constantly trying to view items which are in constant flux.  "One cannot step in the same river twice" 

True Reality cannot be perceived by our fallible senses - we can only interpret the clues we get, and compare them with the Platonic Forms (I'm a fan of Greek philosophy), and thereby come up with our own perception of reality.


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## ElMostro (Dec 30, 2013)

It's 67 degrees in the house right now, the wife says it's cold and I say its warm...so what is the reality? Is it cold or is it warm?  My reality says its warm and I am sticking to it!  (by the way I just raised the thermostat)


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## 08K.80 (Dec 30, 2013)

maxwell_smart007 said:


> Fun little argument.
> 
> Rene Descartes summed this up by saying "Cogito ergo sum" - all we can know is that we are aware of our own thoughts - all else is clouded by `interpretation`of the senses.
> 
> ...


 

Morpheus says you too chose the red pill.:wink:


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## bkersten (Dec 30, 2013)

rd_ab_penman said:


> My grade 3 teacher lined up all the boys in the class each morning and gave each of us one whack with the razor strap on each hand before class started.
> That was reality!!
> And yes, she used red ink.
> 
> Les


 
My 6th grade teacher had a substitue for one day. The lady came in and
said I'm going to pick 3 students and I want you to use the word "evidently" in a sentence.  She walked to the first student and slapped his hands into the desk - who then said evidently you are our new teacher for the day.  The next student in the center of the room got slapped out of his desk to the floor- who then said evidently you want us to behave:frown:.  The last one got slapped in the back of the head which drove his nose into his dest -who then said, may I ask a question first? Yes you may she said.  He said are farts lumpy teacher?. No, and why would you ask that she said. Well, he said, evidently you just slapped the crap out of me:crying:. 

Why do the teachers pick us guys to do all these harsh things to.  Must be that stereotyping thing, and no, I wasn't one of the three


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## tbroye (Dec 30, 2013)

It's all Greek to me.  Time to go out to shop and make a pen with Granddaughter.  Coffee ain't cutting it this morning, will come back this evening after some Merlot and see how my reality is.  Reality is my Dewalt 717 Miter saw will be delivered today.  My neighbor is the UPS driver for this route.


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## monark88 (Dec 30, 2013)

Although interesting thread, to a degree, I was going to stay out of this one, but at least had to give you kudos on your posting. Good for you.

Russ



sbwertz said:


> *Merriam Webster:
> *
> 
> *re·al·i·ty*
> ...


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## Smitty37 (Dec 30, 2013)

tbroye said:


> Reality The Cowboy are not going to the playoffs


I think most of us didn't expect them too, they aren't very good this year.


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## Smitty37 (Dec 30, 2013)

maxwell_smart007 said:


> Fun little argument.
> 
> Rene Descartes summed this up by saying "Cogito ergo sum" - all we can know is that we are aware of our own thoughts - all else is clouded by `interpretation`of the senses.
> 
> ...


 cop out Andrew...reality exists regradless of how we perceive.  Reality is that some of us may see things differently than others see them. However that does not change the way the thing we are looking at really is. 

Perception is not a synonym for reality.


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## Smitty37 (Dec 30, 2013)

sbwertz said:


> *Merriam Webster:*
> 
> 
> *re·al·i·ty*
> ...


I agree whole heartedly, and those definitions confirm exactly what I have been saying they mean.

My original (in the other thread) statement about ad hoc referred to when I used it as an adverb - the verb was observation.

Reality is a noun.   And the definition supports what I have been saying that what is real is what it is regardless of our perception....Perception by the way is a verb.  We dp not have to see something for it to be real...if we did there would be a lot of physics concerning atomic and subatomic particals that would be out the window.


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## Smitty37 (Dec 30, 2013)

robutacion said:


> Well, I strongly support the right and freedom to speak freely and express my thoughts without being concerned about censuring and/or reprisals. Is also my strong believe that, this is a place where we are given simple rules when it comes to participation and mutual respect, ...


 
I didn't think anyone challonged your right to speaking your mind or the use of this forum.


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## tbroye (Dec 30, 2013)

I reject your reality and substitute my own:biggrin:


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## maxwell_smart007 (Dec 30, 2013)

Smitty37 said:


> maxwell_smart007 said:
> 
> 
> > Fun little argument.
> ...



Not a cop out at all - if you want to debate philosophy, you have to start at square one, not jump into the middle!   My philosophy profs would be livid if we didn't break the argument down to it's logos first.  

i.e. How on earth can we know true 'reality', outside of our perceptions? Impossible...
Therefore, the only thing we can know is that we exist, via the fact that we are are thinking and pondering about the world...
_Cogito, ergo sum_.  I think, therefore I exist.


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## sbwertz (Dec 30, 2013)

Smitty37 said:


> I agree whole heartedly, and those definitions confirm exactly what I have been saying they mean.
> 
> My original (in the other thread) statement about ad hoc referred to when I used it as an adverb - the verb was observation.
> 
> Reality is a noun.   And the definition supports what I have been saying that what is real is what it is regardless of our perception....Perception by the way is a verb.  We dp not have to see something for it to be real...if we did there would be a lot of physics concerning atomic and subatomic particals that would be out the window.



Sorry, Smitty, Perception is a noun.  Perceive is a verb.


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## Smitty37 (Dec 30, 2013)

tbroye said:


> I reject your reality and substitute my own:biggrin:


Sorry there is only one and you must share it.:biggrin:


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## JP61 (Dec 30, 2013)

Is reality really real or merely a really real perception of reality? It all depends on what the meaning of is, is.


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## Smitty37 (Dec 30, 2013)

maxwell_smart007 said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > maxwell_smart007 said:
> ...


I'm not debating philosophy Andrew - I am talking about about definitions.  

In philosophy certain debates are endless, this could be one of them.  Philosophy professors roll out the same examples for philosophy 101 students, year after year and they never get resolved because resolution does not exist.


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## maxwell_smart007 (Dec 30, 2013)

> I'm not debating philosophy Andrew - I am talking about about definitions.



By the same token:
Asking people to define 'reality', and then saying you don't want to discuss 'philosophy' turns this thread into an endless debate, Smitty!


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## maxwell_smart007 (Dec 30, 2013)

Smitty37 said:


> In philosophy certain debates are endless, this could be one of them.  Philosophy professors roll out the same examples for philosophy 101 students, year after year and they never get resolved because resolution does not exist.



Philosophy isn't just about solving problems - it's about thinking about how the world works, and trying to change your rigid ways of thinking.


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## Smitty37 (Dec 30, 2013)

JP61 said:


> Is reality really real or merely a really real perception of reality. It all depends on what the meaning of is, is.


 
is
iz/


*1*.
third person singular present of be.




*Definition of IS*

_present 3d singular of_ be


_dialect present 1st & 2d singular of_ be


_dialect present plural of_ be


There are a couple of them.  Really pretty simple.  I would also include that writing gobble-df-gook does not affect reality.:biggrin::biggrin:



​


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## Smitty37 (Dec 30, 2013)

maxwell_smart007 said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > In philosophy certain debates are endless, this could be one of them. Philosophy professors roll out the same examples for philosophy 101 students, year after year and they never get resolved because resolution does not exist.
> ...


 I'm not going to enter a debate about what philosophy is either.


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## Smitty37 (Dec 30, 2013)

maxwell_smart007 said:


> > I'm not debating philosophy Andrew - I am talking about about definitions.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I am not asking people to define reality I am asking them to use the word as it is defined already - see the definition in Sharon's post and note there is nothing in the definition suggesting 'perception' is part of reality.


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## JP61 (Dec 30, 2013)

For homo sapiens, without perception nothing exists.


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## rd_ab_penman (Dec 30, 2013)

sbwertz said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > I agree whole heartedly, and those definitions confirm exactly what I have been saying they mean.
> ...



And the teacher used Red Ink too!


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## Krudwig (Dec 30, 2013)

Does the tree falling in the woods make a sound if nobody is there to here it? Philosophy debates questions such as this to cause people to think about things in a different way. Philosophy causes one to defend a persons already assumed conclusions about things, and challenges all a person has been taught about our world. Philosophy is literally " love of wisdom" philosophers challenge conventional wisdom to explain the perceptions of reality. A person engaged in a debate with a philosopher over the broad issue of reality has no hope of ever making headway on defining reality as that which is real. I believe that we live in a world that is full of realities that effects everybody regardless of their perspectives, positions or world views. Up is up , down is down , light is light, dark is dark, and nothing you or I do alters these realities. We may perceive reality differently , like the way a deaf person perceives music will be different than the way non deaf people experiences it but the way we experience it doesn't alter the music itself. We all may experience realities differently but it doesn't alter the constant realities of the natural world we live in . A postmodern society demands that the constants of life are not explainable by anything higher than one's on experiences and thus truth is relevant only to one individual and is a personal truth that only he or she can know because it is tied to their on personal, collective knowledge and experiences. When people say that perception is reality it's all a part of this philosophy which denies any absolute truth claiming there is no absolute truths and a person can only know what is true for them. Now after reading the thread on "forum decorum" I hope that I've met that criteria. You may not agree with this as I disagree with the concepts that perception is reality. I don't demand that anybody conform to this belief as I will not feel compelled to accept others views although I'm open to view others opinions.


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## Smitty37 (Dec 30, 2013)

JP61 said:


> For homo sapiens, without perception nothing exists.


 My perception of that statement is that it is Wrong.


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## Smitty37 (Dec 30, 2013)

rd_ab_penman said:


> sbwertz said:
> 
> 
> > Smitty37 said:
> ...


 You are right.  That doesn't change anything though.


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## Smitty37 (Dec 30, 2013)

Krudwig said:


> Does the tree falling in the woods make a sound if nobody is there to here it? Philosophy debates questions such as this to cause people to think about things in a different way. Philosophy causes one to defend a persons already assumed conclusions about things, and challenges all a person has been taught about our world. Philosophy is literally " love of wisdom" philosophers challenge conventional wisdom to explain the perceptions of reality. A person engaged in a debate with a philosopher over the broad issue of reality has no hope of ever making headway on defining reality as that which is real. I believe that we live in a world that is full of realities that effects everybody regardless of their perspectives, positions or world views. Up is up , down is down , light is light, dark is dark, and nothing you or I do alters these realities. We may perceive reality differently , like the way a deaf person perceives music will be different than the way non deaf people experiences it but the way we experience it doesn't alter the music itself. We all may experience realities differently but it doesn't alter the constant realities of the natural world we live in . A postmodern society demands that the constants of life are not explainable by anything higher than one's on experiences and thus truth is relevant only to one individual and is a personal truth that only he or she can know because it is tied to their on personal, collective knowledge and experiences. When people say that perception is reality it's all a part of this philosophy which denies any absolute truth claiming there is no absolute truths and a person can only know what is true for them. Now after reading the thread on "forum decorum" I hope that I've met that criteria. You may not agree with this as I disagree with the concepts that perception is reality. I don't demand that anybody conform to this belief as I will not feel compelled to accept others views although I'm open to view others opinions.


 That's why I won't discuss the philosophyl  Much of philosophy seems to me to be a circular argument designed to prove that you can't prove anything.


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## maxwell_smart007 (Dec 30, 2013)

Is there a point to your inquiry, then, or is this just an excuse to argue?  I honestly don't understand what you're driving toward...


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## Ambidex (Dec 30, 2013)

I think all opinions are a detriment to reality..especially mine!:biggrin: got to admit,an interesting thread to say the least


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## JP61 (Dec 30, 2013)

Smitty37 said:


> JP61 said:
> 
> 
> > For homo sapiens, without perception nothing exists.
> ...


 
In order to have a concept of reality, one must be able to perceive it.

zero input = zero output


:biggrin: btw, in post #52 I was just joking.


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## Smitty37 (Dec 30, 2013)

maxwell_smart007 said:


> Is there a point to your inquiry, then, or is this just an excuse to argue? I honestly don't understand what you're driving toward...


 I was asking a simple question of "when did the common use of "personal reality' start.  I was looking for a time frame. It seems to me to be fairly recent, the other question "what does it (personal reality) mean" is a rhetorical question.


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## mark james (Dec 30, 2013)

Beating a dead dog!!!  Move on people.


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## JP61 (Dec 30, 2013)

mark james said:


> Beating a dead dog!!!  Move on people.



If you're going to type, why not post your views on the topic? If it bothers you that people are having a discussion, maybe you should move on so it has no effect on your reality.


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## Brian G (Dec 30, 2013)

Smitty37 said:


> I was asking a simple question of "when did the common use of "personal reality' start.  I was looking for a time frame. It seems to me to be fairly recent, the other question "what does it (personal reality) mean" is a rhetorical question.


 
In the context of this thread, it started right here: http://www.penturners.org/forum/f18/teacher-not-allowed-use-red-ink-117762/#post1610457 that was first use of "personal reality."  

"Observation" is a noun, not a verb.


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## robutacion (Dec 30, 2013)

maxwell_smart007 said:


> Is there a point to your inquiry, then, or is this just an excuse to argue?  I honestly don't understand what you're driving toward...



Hahahahah, that's an interesting question...!:biggrin:

It may be that, our friend Smithy wanted to know how many "fence posts" he had around him, after all, the bite was set and lots of us, when for it so, kit worked...!

I wonder what some of the qualified philosophers, psychologists, psychiatrists and experts of the "mind" that are present among us as members, is thinking about this thread...???

Is a very good chance that they will be laughing and enjoying all the "bull" spread around in fair doses, and thinking, what a bunch of "!d!ot$"...!:biggrin:

You know, regardless if right or wrong, many "conversations" start from nothing and extensively discussed and all about nothing, call it a "rant", a distress action, blowing some smoke, get it out of our chests or any other hundred excuses they may be, in the end, its OK, no one get hurt and we all relaxed a little but deciding to participate or simply read, as it goes.

Whatever, the enjoyment it is/was for you, I believe Smithy would not appreciate to be ignored and left talk to himself, you can't blame anyone else but yourself to decide to participate or follow up, why did/do we do it...??? I let the mind/brain experts to explain it as I, do not have the answer...!

As for wasting time...! really...??? given the choice, I prefer to spend 1 hour reading, typing here about whatever than, spend 1 minute in hospital, in bed sick or in pain, I don't know about you but, I'm fine with it, I still have plenty of time left to work in the shed and do any of the jobs that need to be done in or around the house, 24 hours in a day, is a lot of hours, used as required...!:wink:

After all, who would be there to entertain you lot...???

Cheers
George


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## Smitty37 (Dec 30, 2013)

Brian G said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > I was asking a simple question of "when did the common use of "personal reality' start. I was looking for a time frame. It seems to me to be fairly recent, the other question "what does it (personal reality) mean" is a rhetorical question.
> ...


 Yes it is, to observe is a verb but the observation is a noun.  That, however, makes no difference to the point.  A personal observation of the nature described is in fact ad hoc. 

I wasn't asking where it was first used in another thread...at least that isn't what I was intending to ask.  It seems to be getting fairly common use now I was more thinking about how long thats been going on.


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## JP61 (Dec 30, 2013)

robutacion said:


> maxwell_smart007 said:
> 
> 
> > Is there a point to your inquiry, then, or is this just an excuse to argue?  I honestly don't understand what you're driving toward...
> ...




I doubt if any of them would think that and I'm pretty sure they wouldn't call us a bunch of idiots.


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## Smitty37 (Dec 30, 2013)

JP61 said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > JP61 said:
> ...


 I'm not going to debate that.  By definition, what is real is real, whether or not we even exist or whether everything exists only in our own minds.


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## Brian G (Dec 30, 2013)

Smitty37 said:


> Yes it is, to observe is a verb but the observation is a noun.  That, however, makes no difference to the point.  A personal observation of the nature described is in fact ad hoc.


 
In that thread, you stated, "personal reality exactly fits the definition of ad hoc when used as an adverb i.e. ad hoc observation. "

You misused the term "ad hoc" and then ridiculed me as being someone that should know what it means as a grader of college level material.  I know what it means and how to use it correctly, whether as adverb or adjective.

It is not, "in fact" ad hoc.  You can infer that it was, based only on what I typed in these two threads, but only *I* have all of the specific facts that led to my decision.  As I stated, the action was pre-planned, and for a wider application for me.  That doesn't fit the definition of "ad hoc."


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## robutacion (Dec 30, 2013)

JP61 said:


> robutacion said:
> 
> 
> > maxwell_smart007 said:
> ...



Fair enough however, I'm included in that group and I did not "tag" any of us with any names, I did however say that, "Is a very good chance that...!", I was speculating, assuming some of the possibilities, after all I asked an indirect question, I was in fact curious to what those with the qualifications in the mind issues, do interpret threads/comments like these...!

I can understand how easy is for one to assume I was calling anyone an idiot, something that we humans, have a fair share of it so, if anyone think that I'm an idiot because I keep "biting", that doesn't bother me, and I have been called a lot worse than that, nor it changes it the "REALITY", and here we go again, in that vicious circle routine...!:wink::biggrin:

Very interesting, huh...???:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

Cheers
George


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## JP61 (Dec 30, 2013)

Smitty37 said:


> JP61 said:
> 
> 
> > Smitty37 said:
> ...



You were questioning "personal reality".

An individual experiences his or her reality through their senses (perception). Whatever inputs they're receiving at any particular time in their lives is their "personal reality". 

Soon after man discovered fire and BBQ he was sitting around with his friends, grunting, mumbling about how great life was while picking his teeth with his nasty fingers. That was part of their "personal reality" at that time. F16 fighter jets on the other hand were not part of their reality but, F16's are real. Now, if it were somehow possible for an F16 to do a low altitude flyover at Mach 2 after their delicious dinner, "personal realities" would change in an instant and in more ways than one. :biggrin:


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## tbroye (Dec 30, 2013)

This has been and interesting and fun thread to end the year.  My reality is all messed up Brother in Law came over to watch Bowl Games now my bottle of Merlot is empty and my reality is cloudy can we start over next year?  We did get a couple of pens made this afternoon for Granddaughter Karate instructor who uses a red pen to correct her essays on becoming a Black Belt.
So far this thread has be civil with maybe a couple of real small flames so my vote is to let it go for awhile.  

Red pen, Black Pen, Blue Pen an F is an F in any color but so is an A an A in any color.


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## Smitty37 (Dec 31, 2013)

JP61 said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > JP61 said:
> ...


Reality is defined in our language. The definition has been posted. It has no reference to perception.

Ah but what is real today is still real tomorrow but was not necessarily real yesterday.:biggrin: When I throw a real log on my fire it is changed and the real log no longer exists. The elements composing the log still exist but not in the form of a log. Reality has changed. No one said Reality can't change but when that lost F-16 showed up at early man's BBQ the reality changed for everybody, not just those who saw the strange bird that they would have to catch and eat at the next BBQ.:biggrin:


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## maxwell_smart007 (Dec 31, 2013)

I maintain that reality is an illusion caused by our inability to perceive the True nature of the universe - thus we bastardize it through interpreting it via our fallible senses...

And with that, I'm going to check out of this debate, read some Plato, and admire the philosophy degree gathering dust on my wall!


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## Smitty37 (Dec 31, 2013)

maxwell_smart007 said:


> I maintain that reality is an illusion caused by our inability to perceive the True nature of the universe - thus we bastardize it through interpreting it via our fallible senses...
> 
> And with that, I'm going to check out of this debate, read some Plato, and admire the philosophy degree gathering dust on my wall!


 I bleed for you.....but even worse for this site, my degree is in political science. BTW one of the best engineers I ever worked with had a degree in Philosophy.


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## maxwell_smart007 (Dec 31, 2013)

Smitty37 said:


> maxwell_smart007 said:
> 
> 
> > I maintain that reality is an illusion caused by our inability to perceive the True nature of the universe - thus we bastardize it through interpreting it via our fallible senses...
> ...



I thought about poli sci - took a few courses, but it wasn't exciting enough for me.  Beyond my Philosophy degree, my other degrees are a Bachelor of Education (useful) and an advanced degree in Classics, focusing on Roman History!  

I took 120 percent of a courseload every year, and such a wide variety of courses that I could major in anything I wanted, essentially...why I chose Philosophy, I'll never know! (ironically)  

(sadly, I'm still paying for them - anyone want to pay off one of my degrees? :biggrin


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## maxwell_smart007 (Dec 31, 2013)

Smitty37 said:


> BTW one of the best engineers I ever worked with had a degree in Philosophy.



Besides making one the subject of ridicule, I maintain that some education in classical Philosophy is absolutely essential to anyone who wants to learn how to think outside the box.


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## LeeR (Dec 31, 2013)

mark james said:


> Do threads like this happen often ???



In reality, my perception is that they do ...


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## Krudwig (Dec 31, 2013)

Four blind men each are asked what a elephant is like while each examines different parts of said elephant. One holding the trunk another holding a tail as so forth. Each will give a different view of what an elephant is like and so the philosopher says no one can say what is true or real it's all depends upon our perceptions. This illustration has been used to prove the position that we each have our own reality and it depends upon where we are as to how we perceive it. No one can know what is true because none of us have enough information to go on. Problems of course come from the illustration because the truth is that all are equally wrong because in fact had a sighted man arrived on the seen and describe for them the elephant they would not say its like a snake or rope or a whale. Each blind mans opinion on what an elephant is like are not equally true but equally false! All opinions are not equally right as I stared earlier wham I said we've moved for the concept that everybody has a right to his or her opinion to every opinion is equally right!  Some reject truth and reality saying we can't know cause we are like the blind men. The truth is some things are facts wether we choose to accept them or not. The fact that Nelson Mandela lived and died here on planet earth is not an opinion or a perception but a fact. The elephant was in fact an elephant regardless of how the blind men experienced it! We all may not have a full picture of reality and we may experience it differently from our own perspective but it doesn't alter the fact that it is reality! The elephant was and is and always will be an elephant not an illusion. Life is reality. 
Again I'm voicing my personal convictions


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## tbroye (Dec 31, 2013)

It is 6:10am PST, it is dark and cold outside.  Is this reality or my perception?  Coffee is a little strong this morning so look out.  Have a Happy and Safe New Year celebration.


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## Smitty37 (Dec 31, 2013)

maxwell_smart007 said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > maxwell_smart007 said:
> ...


I have 148 semester hours on my transcript and my official degree is *BS in Liberal Studies with a concentration in Political Science *in addition to that transcript I also have 12 undergraduate credit hours in accounting and 9 graduate credit hours in Engineering Management taught by MIT professors and attended a 10 week Manufacturing Technology Institute put on by IBM where the instructors all had advanced degrees in the area of the subject matter they were teaching.  Aside from that I also attended 26 weeks 8 hours a day of ET Class A school when I joined the Navy and had over 1500 class room hours in technical subjects and 200 hours in management related subjects at IBM.  Additionally I completed three correspondance courses and took real estate sales person and real estate broker courses for both NY an PA.


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## Smitty37 (Dec 31, 2013)

Krudwig said:


> Four blind men each are asked what a elephant is like while each examines different parts of said elephant. One holding the trunk another holding a tail as so forth. Each will give a different view of what an elephant is like and so the philosopher says no one can say what is true or real it's all depends upon our perceptions. This illustration has been used to prove the position that we each have our own reality and it depends upon where we are as to how we perceive it. No one can know what is true because none of us have enough information to go on. Problems of course come from the illustration because the truth is that all are equally wrong because in fact had a sighted man arrived on the seen and describe for them the elephant they would not say its like a snake or rope or a whale. Each blind mans opinion on what an elephant is like are not equally true but equally false! All opinions are not equally right as I stared earlier wham I said *we've moved for the concept that everybody has a right to his or her opinion to every opinion is equally right!* Some reject truth and reality saying we can't know cause we are like the blind men. The truth is some things are facts wether we choose to accept them or not. The fact that Nelson Mandela lived and died here on planet earth is not an opinion or a perception but a fact. The elephant was in fact an elephant regardless of how the blind men experienced it! We all may not have a full picture of reality and we may experience it differently from our own perspective but it doesn't alter the fact that it is reality! The elephant was and is and always will be an elephant not an illusion. Life is reality.
> Again I'm voicing my personal convictions


I discussed this with all of my six children at one time or another.  I used to tell them "yes, you have a right to your own opinion, so long as your opinion is not contradicted by facts.  I told them "If you hold an opinion contradicted by facts you are just flat wrong and your opinion is not valid"


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## Smitty37 (Dec 31, 2013)

tbroye said:


> It is 6:10am PST, it is dark and cold outside. Is this reality or my perception? Coffee is a little strong this morning so look out. Have a Happy and Safe New Year celebration.


Sleeping in again I was up for hours before that.:biggrin::biggrin:


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## JP61 (Dec 31, 2013)

Smitty37 said:


> JP61 said:
> 
> 
> > *For homo sapiens, without perception nothing exists.*
> ...



Could you give a brief explanation why you think this view is Wrong? I'm interested to hear your opinion. Also, before you reply, read post #1 again. I believe there's a key word there, spelled PERSONAL.


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## monark88 (Dec 31, 2013)

maxwell_smart007 said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > BTW one of the best engineers I ever worked with had a degree in Philosophy.
> ...



Couldn't agree more. Read or reread Niccolo Machiavelli works, in addition to Plato and others, of course.

This a good thread for making one, Think, hopefully.  

Sorry, but since we're on degrees attained. Mine is Bs History(Hispanic, S American), Grad; Special Ed and a master's in Am. History, short of the defense of Thesis.


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## Smitty37 (Dec 31, 2013)

JP61 said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > JP61 said:
> ...


*Perhaps you should read post #1 again - I wrote it.*

I am not going to get into a philosophy 101 metaphysics debate - been there, done that.

 I believe the universe is physical and real. that things can and do happen whether we are there to observe them or not.  Worms may not know that humans, or lions or bears exist but that does not change the reality that such things do exist.  

My positiion is simply that real is real regardless of our perception of it or lack thereof.


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## JP61 (Dec 31, 2013)

Smitty37 said:


> JP61 said:
> 
> 
> > Smitty37 said:
> ...



Without your perception you believe nothing, real or otherwise. That's my final answer. Happy New Year!


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## sbell111 (Dec 31, 2013)

At the end of the day, none of that matters.  Smitty got his dander up because a poster typed something like 'my reality is...'.  Did Smitty understand that the poster actually meant that 'his experience' instead of 'his reality'?  Of course he did.  Given how often we hear some version of 'my reality', it's super unlikely that Smitty wasn't familiar with the saying.  He just wanted to have an argument and feel morally superior.

Now, of course, he will be appear to give his rebuttal because he simply cannot exist without having the last word.


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## tbroye (Jan 1, 2014)

Reality =  Stanford will kick Michigan's butt tomorrow in the Rose Bowl for you on the East Coast and Mid West the Rose Bowl Today


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## Smitty37 (Jan 1, 2014)

And Steve Bell can't get into a discussion without making a personal comment about his opponent's (for want of a better word) motives, or character, then running for the hills.

At any rate, with 90 odd posts in the thread somebody must have thought it was a fun discussion..
*HAPPY NEW YEAR MAY YOU ALL BE BLESSED THROUGHOUT 2014.*


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## SDB777 (Jan 1, 2014)

My reality says...."When you beat a dead horse it makes no sense, but it does make a mess that needs to be cleaned up."



Scott (let's argue to argue without arguing) B


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## sbell111 (Jan 1, 2014)

Smitty37 said:


> And Steve Bell can't get into a discussion without making a personal comment about his opponent's (for want of a better word) motives, or character, then running for the hills.
> 
> At any rate, with 90 odd posts in the thread somebody must have thought it was a fun discussion..
> *HAPPY NEW YEAR MAY YOU ALL BE BLESSED THROUGHOUT 2014.*



I made six posts to this thread.  That's hardly 'running for the hills'.  

Don't confuse someone's feeding your compulsion to have the last word with cowardice.


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## Smitty37 (Jan 1, 2014)

sbell111 said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > And Steve Bell can't get into a discussion without making a personal comment about his opponent's (for want of a better word) motives, or character, then running for the hills.
> ...


And don't confuse your compulsion to start getting personal with courage.  I was referring you your last post where you attempted to psycoanalyze me and my motives. You're like a kid on a playground who yells at another kid "Well you're an ----" and runs.


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## Smitty37 (Jan 1, 2014)

SDB777 said:


> My reality says...."When you beat a dead horse it makes no sense, but it does make a mess that needs to be cleaned up."
> 
> 
> 
> Scott (let's argue to argue without arguing) B


Hmmm so you hear voices.....they used to tell me that was my conscience....:biggrin: I'm always amused by those who continue a thread to suggest it should be discontinued rather than just not going back to it anymore.


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## knowltoh (Jan 1, 2014)

tbroye said:


> Reality =  Stanford will kick Michigan's butt tomorrow in the Rose Bowl for you on the East Coast and Mid West the Rose Bowl Today


 

Reality = Stanford plays Michigan State and Stanford will get their butt kicked.


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## sbell111 (Jan 1, 2014)

knowltoh said:


> tbroye said:
> 
> 
> > Reality =  Stanford will kick Michigan's butt tomorrow in the Rose Bowl for you on the East Coast and Mid West the Rose Bowl Today
> ...



Wait one minute.  You guys can't have differing realities.  That's not acceptable.  There's only one possible reality.  Heads will roll for this.


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## tbroye (Jan 1, 2014)

Reality.  It is the first of the month, now I have to pay the bills.  Take that back I don't have to but like living in my house and having food to eat and pens to make.  I took some time last year to get ready for today so I can do them while watch/listening to the Rose Parade.  Have a great day.


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## Smitty37 (Jan 1, 2014)

sbell111 said:


> knowltoh said:
> 
> 
> > tbroye said:
> ...


That's true.  Nice to see you finally realize that.:biggrin:


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## JP61 (Jan 1, 2014)

Smitty37 said:


> When and why did we get in the habit of talking about "personal" reality?  And, just what does that mean?
> 
> To me reality is reality - what is real is real.  If it is reality it is reality for you, reality for me and reality for the guy behind that tree.
> 
> ...




:biggrin: Hey Smitty, imagine you having a different life than your present.

Soon after your birth, you're isolated and remain that way for the first 25 years of your life. Then one day, I walk into your room and ask...... Smitty, what does reality mean to you? 


Back to reality..... please type what your answer would be on that day.


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## Smitty37 (Jan 1, 2014)

JP61 said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > .
> ...


 Obviously I would say nothing.


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## JP61 (Jan 1, 2014)

Smitty37 said:


> JP61 said:
> 
> 
> > Smitty37 said:
> ...



Do you think your perception had any influence on you having the capability to form and state your opinion in either case?


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## Smitty37 (Jan 1, 2014)

JP61 said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > JP61 said:
> ...


Joe, I told you already that I am not going to get into metaphysics.  It can be fun but, over my lifetime, I have had as much fun with that subject as I will ever need.


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## JP61 (Jan 1, 2014)

Smitty37 said:


> JP61 said:
> 
> 
> > Smitty37 said:
> ...



Categorize it as you wish..... it's a simple question to the person that started this thread/topic. Though, I do understand why you're not willing to play along. :biggrin:


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## Smitty37 (Jan 1, 2014)

JP61 said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > JP61 said:
> ...


Reality is that I believe it is a thinly disguised attempt to get me to enter a debate involving the metaphysics branch of philosophy.

Here is why

The thesis that metaphysics is impossible comes in what might be called strong and weak forms. Let us suppose that we are confident that we are able to identify every statement as either “a metaphysical statement” or “not a metaphysical statement.” (We need not suppose that this ability is grounded in some non-trivial definition or account of metaphysics.) The strong form of the thesis is this: All metaphysical statements are meaningless. (At one time, an enemy of metaphysics might have been content to say that all metaphysical statements were false. But this is obviously not a possible thesis if the denial of a metaphysical statement must itself be a metaphysical statement.) The weak form of the thesis is this: metaphysical statements are meaningful, but human beings can never discover whether any metaphysical statement is true or false (or probable or improbable or warranted or unwarranted).


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## tbroye (Jan 1, 2014)

What happened to Reality?  13 1/2 hours into 2014 and I am lost and confused and I am sober.  Must be my old age.  Out to the shop to play with my new toy until the Rose Bowl starts.  Maybe I should Google Metaphysics


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## maxwell_smart007 (Jan 1, 2014)

tbroye said:


> What happened to Reality?  13 1/2 hours into 2014 and I am lost and confused and I am sober.  Must be my old age.  Out to the shop to play with my new toy until the Rose Bowl starts.  Maybe I should Google Metaphysics



Didn't Smitty say the word Metaphysics enough? :biggrin: 

Metaphysics - theories about reality
Epistemology - theories about knowledge
Ethics - theories about what is Just and Right


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## Smitty37 (Jan 1, 2014)

tbroye said:


> What happened to Reality? 13 1/2 hours into 2014 and I am lost and confused and I am sober. Must be my old age. Out to the shop to play with my new toy until the Rose Bowl starts. *Maybe I should Google Metaphysics*


If you think you are confused now just go ahead and do that.:biggrin::biggrin:


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## JP61 (Jan 1, 2014)

Smitty37 said:


> JP61 said:
> 
> 
> > Smitty37 said:
> ...



I forgot to tell you Smitty, that I'm not going to get into megadiversions. I've seen two years worth in this thread alone. :biggrin:

How about a yes, no or maybe answer?


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## maxwell_smart007 (Jan 1, 2014)

Twelve pages on Reality, when it's just back-and-forth between a few people, is likely plenty - don't you think?

Andrew
assistant moderator


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## tbroye (Jan 1, 2014)

Just Googled Metaphysics.  Sounds interestin,You guys have fun, I will check later and see how it's going.  Keep it Civil.  Off to the Dog Park with the 2 fur children


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## JP61 (Jan 1, 2014)

maxwell_smart007 said:


> Twelve pages on Reality, when it's just back-and-forth between a few people, is likely plenty - don't you think?
> 
> Andrew
> assistant moderator



 It's a matter of perspective, but the reality of it is, that it's plenty when a moderator thinks it is.


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## Smitty37 (Jan 1, 2014)

JP61 said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > JP61 said:
> ...


NO.


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## Smitty37 (Jan 1, 2014)

maxwell_smart007 said:


> Twelve pages on Reality, when it's just back-and-forth between a few people, is likely plenty - don't you think?
> 
> Andrew
> assistant moderator


 It isn't political and it isn't religion and it has not become heated or uncivil.  What then is the problem?


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## sbell111 (Jan 1, 2014)

Smitty37 said:


> maxwell_smart007 said:
> 
> 
> > Twelve pages on Reality, when it's just back-and-forth between a few people, is likely plenty - don't you think?
> ...



Generally speaking, the reality is that sometimes threads devolve to the point where the only things to come out of them is hard feelings among the participants.  Even though these threads technically conform to the TOU, it is often best to kill them off for the good of the forum.


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## Smitty37 (Jan 1, 2014)

sbell111 said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > maxwell_smart007 said:
> ...


I can't say for sure but last I knew Andrew was quite capable, in reality, to speak for himself.  But then, it's so cold where he is that perhaps his words (or fingers) are getting frozen.:biggrin:


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## Smitty37 (Jan 1, 2014)

Truth is I'm tired of it too. Metaphysics is fun the first time you go through it but after you've done it once you realize that it always leads either to nowhere or back to the beginning -- depending on your perspective.


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## maxwell_smart007 (Jan 1, 2014)

It certainly is cold!  I was just saying that we're pushing 12 pages of posts, most of which are circular, and some of which are antagonistic.  

So with that in mind, I was hoping we could bring some sanity to the "reality"  

Andrew


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## Smitty37 (Jan 1, 2014)

I think it is a philosophical problem Andrew....


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## JP61 (Jan 1, 2014)

It'll be all resolved, soon after the sun implodes.


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## The Penguin (Jan 1, 2014)

Smitty37 said:


> I can't say for sure but last I knew Andrew was quite capable, in reality, to speak for himself.  But then, it's so cold where he is that perhaps his words (or fingers) are getting frozen.:biggrin:


are you sure that's not your own personal reality?


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## Smitty37 (Jan 1, 2014)

The Penguin said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > I can't say for sure but last I knew Andrew was quite capable, in reality, to speak for himself. But then, it's so cold where he is that perhaps his words (or fingers) are getting frozen.:biggrin:
> ...


That being what????


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## Simplex (Jan 1, 2014)

Seriously?  This is still an active thread?


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## StephenM (Jan 1, 2014)

Simplex said:


> Seriously?  This is still an active thread?



Or is it???????


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## Smitty37 (Jan 1, 2014)

Maybe I'll say something illegal and Andrew will close it.


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## Smitty37 (Jan 1, 2014)

Maybe I'll start a thread about perception.....


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## JP61 (Jan 1, 2014)

You should start something less agitating.... like- what is your favorite beer?
or how many teeth you have left?


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## Smitty37 (Jan 1, 2014)

JP61 said:


> You should start something less agitating.... like- what is your favorite beer?
> or *how many teeth you have left*?


 Hmmmm, natural teeth or just any teeth?


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## The Penguin (Jan 1, 2014)

Bush 
Obama
abortion
gay marriage
legalize pot

that ought to do it.

:biggrin:


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## Smitty37 (Jan 1, 2014)

JP61 said:


> You should start something less agitating.... like- *what is your favorite beer*?
> or how many teeth you have left?


 That would be IBC Root.


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## JP61 (Jan 1, 2014)

human teeth- natural or otherwise


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## Smitty37 (Jan 1, 2014)

JP61 said:


> human teeth- natural or otherwise


Oh about 48


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## JP61 (Jan 1, 2014)

maybe a survey to see how many members have hemorrhoids???


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## Smitty37 (Jan 1, 2014)

JP61 said:


> maybe a survey to see how many members have hemorrhoids???


All of them


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## tbroye (Jan 2, 2014)

Maybe we should have a separate sub forum titled Joe & LeRoy Discuss the World and the rest of us could just read but not post.  Might make for some fun late night reading. Just broke my New Years Resolution.  Isn't what they are for?


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## Smitty37 (Jan 2, 2014)

The Penguin said:


> Bush
> Obama
> abortion
> gay marriage
> ...


Why would talking about my sister Shirley Bush or BIL Clyde cause a thread closer?


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## Smitty37 (Jan 2, 2014)

tbroye said:


> Maybe we should have a separate sub forum titled Joe & LeRoy Discuss the World and the rest of us could just read but not post. Might make for some fun late night reading. Just broke my New Years Resolution. Isn't what they are for?


 Gee I thought you'd done that hours ago.....:biggrin:


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## rd_ab_penman (Jan 2, 2014)

The Penguin said:


> Bush
> Obama
> abortion
> gay marriage
> ...



You forgot Affluenza!

Les


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