# Skill Endorsements - Yay or Nay?



## jeff (May 22, 2004)

Are you in favor of IAP member "achievement levels", such as "Penturner", "Pencrafter", and "Master Penturner", that would result from objective evaluations of members' submitted work?"
<center>(This is an anonymous, members only poll)</center>


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## jeff (May 22, 2004)

Here's your chance to shape the future of the IAP.  Thanks for your vote.  This poll will close on June 4.

Visit this topic to see the previous discussion on this issue.


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## timdaleiden (May 22, 2004)

> _Originally posted by jeff_
> <br />Here's your chance to shape the future of the IAP.  Thanks for your vote.  This poll will close on June 4.
> 
> Visit this topic to see the previous discussion on this issue.



  Jeff, 

  I am wondering if this is all going too fast. I was following the discussion very closely, but seeing very few members express their thoughts. These are all very important issues, that may be in place for a long time, and may influence general interest in joining. Is there going to be wiggle room to change things if they don't work? 

  It took me a little time to get used to the idea of levels, but then I liked it. I am not sure I like the way that it has been proposed entirely. Some of this seems too restrictive, and guided by a particular structure.

  I don't like the comparisons to the boyscouts either. We know there are females here who are great at penmaking, and this talk seems to be male oriented.

  If it were me in charge. Yes, promote various levels, keep it simple, and don't make it too structured. Penturning is a skilled craft, and an art. 

  Maybe give awards for various skills achieved, but then give level advancement based on the number of awards, with no regard as to the order in which they were achieved. 

  I would like to see a balance of structure and freedom. 

  My two cents.


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## Daniel (May 22, 2004)

Tim,
 I'm not seeing this question as the final structure of the levels, simply establishing that the majority of those that will respond are in favor of levels or not.
I have seen more respnce to this one issue than any other topic on this group. as for those that have commented, their are by far a majority of those that have joined this group but never even posted an introduction.
most simply gain what information they might find useful and observe. so as far as the total number of members compaired to the number that would even vote could be expected to be likewise. 
I'm not sure I see the connection between concidering the "Boy Scouts" model of awarding levels and this being Male targeted. it is the method that is being considered, it is a commonly known method and simplifies understanding among those that are conversing without long explanation.
it is also the model used by the Girl Scouts. More clearly put without accosiating with any other organization. the achievment of various levels would be determined by achieving a clearly stated list of criteria. such as a first aid badge. the manual lists all the abilities that need to be demonstrated to be awarded that badge. 
I would not like to see the levels dictate the path a turner takes with their craft. such as requiring they make a pen out of polymere clay.
but say making a pen out of alternative materials broadens that selection, still allows the crafter to invest in there work in a direction they are intersted in, and still would be meeting the criteria for that level. 
I do think that certain skills need to be demonstrated before others woudl be considered but this is not an across the board view. and I think you have a good suggestion with the number ov achievments moves you to a higher level. with possibly some specific achievments that are required as well. 
Provided that it is voted that we have levels all of this I see as topic of further discussion.


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## paleydp (May 23, 2004)

I was a girl scout - no problem with levels of achievement or badges (badges, we don't need no stinkin' badges! - oops, I didn't say that). What I would hope for out of all of this (being a beginner) is that some of the vast amount of pen-turning knowledge out there will be filtered/distilled into an organized, loosely-guided (loose for those who don't like too much direction, guided for those analytics who need some) system that will help us to grow in our chosen craft/passion/obsession. I don't necessarily want to be told I have to produce a certain pen with a specific material in a particular style, however, I have no problem being told that my next step to demonstrate progress is to be able to produce a pen or pens out a defined group, or that a particular group of materials would be a logical next step to master. I welcome the knowledge that easy woods, or kits are considered to be A, B, C, and that slightly more challenging would be D, E, F, but that X, Y, Z require tools and expertise that may take awhile to master(it won't necessarily keep me away from X, Y, Z, but then I'll have been warned). Hope this isn't sounding too heavy. A question though, what of those who don't need/care about/want a star on their business card? Are they out? I personally want to master a diversity of materials and kits, and I already have enough people wanting my pens to feel I'm doing something right, but do I get booted or shunned if I don't want to prove I can fulfill the requirements of a level? (Not being irate/irritated or anything else, just asking to make sure these things are being considered.)


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## Scott (May 23, 2004)

Hi Denise,

No, you don't get booted if you don't want to advance!  I've always believed that this should be a place where everybody is welcome!  That's why when you sign up at Penturners.org you are a member, and you have access to everything here!  From the Klingspor Group Discount to the great Articles, you've got it!  The advancement through the various levels is to be educational - a fun way to motivate someone to learn new things.  And in my opinion, when it stops being fun, it aint' worth it!

Some people like to work their way through levels of advancement.  Others don't.  This place needs to be a home for everybody!

Scott.


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## Daniel (May 23, 2004)

I want to pipe in on Denise's comment for two reasons.
One to try and stay 100 posts ahead of Scott
two is that this addresses one of the biggest miss conceptions others can get about this idea.
the whole idea of levels and recognition of ability is not to decide who can and cannot join this group. that is what the Guild did. but to award and recongnize the level of craftsmanship anyone has achieved by their own choice. I expect there will be a large group of members that already have or eventually will achieve these levels and more and never once concider submitting for the recognition. they simply will not have an interest it it being recognized. the pure Joy of penmaking is what they get out of there craft adn that will not change. If as an example I reached the level of "Master Penmaker" and I mentioned that to anouther Woodworker. they woudl want to know who recognized me as a master. being able to shoew them a well organized. and consistant criteria that was established by a large group of penmakers would be a pretty strong backing for that claim.
Denise please don't take my comments as light hearted even though I started it with my joke to scott. I really didn't post it just to get one more post up. I think you have voiced a thought that others have fringed upon with concerns that they might step into unacdceptable comments. but I also think the concern that this idea would be anouther way to exclude others is very strong. anyone woudl still have the ability to post there work and comments and have it recognized by the group as everyone does now. I see pictures of soemones work, read there comments on questions compaired to my experience. follow there posts for a while and I begin to see there skill level. and direction they are taking with there work for myself. how to pu this asame thing into a group statment about that person is difficult but not impossible. And I wodl not want it to in any way effect how you can participate in this group. It's like getting stars. post 500 messsages and you get 5 stars.
It does help others know if you just post a message now and then or have to have our two cents worth about everything. Have spent alot of time or a little. but it doesn't show that the person with the most posts knows more than the one with the least. I have contibuted one article to this group. But i had to give it to scott to get it ready. that how I keep him off the group so I can stay ahead of him in posts


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## dw (May 23, 2004)

I'm new to pen-making and for me, it's a hobby, not a calling. 

That said, I have been involved with a traditional, hands-on, high-skill Trade for over 30 years. 

Personally, I am in favour of skill levels and recognition of those levels, especially if the criteria for achieving those levels is well establish and never deviated from. But this  has been tried before in many different fields. You should know that. And all too often what results is hurt feelings and resentments. 

We are not a society that puts a great deal of emphasis on taking the time to refine skills (years, usually) nor do we give much thought to the "pursuit of excellence" and all that it entails. We pride ourselves in our "tolerance" and "democratic" sentiments way too much...and way too much to accommodate any form of hierarchy or "ranking." It smacks of elitism to a great many of us 

Yet practically, the pursuit of excellence is, by definition, elitist. It is a search for "good, better, best." As an example, titanium gold is demonstrably more durable than 24 caret gold. But choosing one over the other is, again, a choice that reflects on the maker's dedication to excellence. It is also a recognition that TG is "better" than 24K gold. Once that is established, those who choose to use 24K gold or satin or chrome kits will feel compelled to justify their choices and be offended when logic refutes them. 

Think about this...because this is just the tip of the iceberg. And at every level and at every turn a multiplicity of just such scenarios present themselves. 

In the end there's no escaping such issues; nor any concievable way to re-define the issues to make them more palatable to the greater number of folks interested in this field. Even calling it "educational"--as valid as that may be...especially at first--is just another euphemism for rank.  

All that can reasonably be done is to set up this hierarchy, *embrace* this elitism, and let the chips fall where they may. 

I'm not speculating when I put forth this proposition...I've seen it in my own Trade and I've seen it in other Trades. As I say, personally, I think establishing a hierarchy is a good thing --good for the Trade, good for business, good for creating the incentive to transcend the mundane. [Of course, my thinking tends to be a bit romantic, if not medieval, and I am, by long habit, oriented towards traditional Guilds] But the likely results ought to be recognized and entered into with eyes wide open if it's to be done at all. 

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

frommer@bootmaker.com
http://www.bootmaker.com

 "Little Jack Dandiprat, in a white petticoat,
 The longer he lives the shorter he grows."


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## jeff (May 23, 2004)

> _Originally posted by timdaleiden_
> Jeff,
> 
> I am wondering if this is all going too fast. I was following the discussion very closely, but seeing very few members express their thoughts. These are all very important issues, that may be in place for a long time, and may influence general interest in joining. Is there going to be wiggle room to change things if they don't work?


Tim - I'm not in any hurry at all and I hope nobody else is either.  We're putting an organization together that I hope exists for a very long time, so I see no need to rush.  All I hope for is thoughtful, steady progress.  By putting up the poll, I did not mean to imply that when it closes we're going to head off in some specific direction.  It's just a good way to gather an anonymous opinion.

As far as wiggle room, absolutely.  The board of directors, or whatever gets set up, should have the ability to change any aspect of the organization.  (Considering the needs and desires of the membership, of course...)

On this issue of the Boy Scouts, I'll offer my most sincere apology to any women or men here who feel that using the Boy Scouts merit badge process as an example was sexist or non-inclusive of both genders.  For me, it was just a convenient example. 

Also, Tim, I see your point about the progression of endorsements.  I know that having one level lead to the next gives the impression that one is better then the one before.  As a couple others have pointed out in this and the other topic, that's a perception, not a fact, and if someone is predisposed to thinking about things that way, that's what they'll do. 

Perhaps the endorsements should not lead one to the next.  Maybe someone can propose a more "flat" approach to the endorsements, if you know what I mean.  I do like the skill categories that have been proposed so far.  I think they address most of the various aspects of the craft.


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## jeff (May 23, 2004)

> _...but do I get booted or shunned if I don't want to prove I can fulfill the requirements of a level? (Not being irate/irritated or anything else, just asking to make sure these things are being considered.)
> _


_Denise, you have a good sense of humor!  I enjoyed your post.

Here's the answer: <b>Nobody gets booted or shunned because they don't want to pursue an endorsement/level/badge or whatever they end up being called.</b>

I see two main reasons why someone would want to pursue an endorsement.  

(1) They want it on their business card to help them sell more pens.  The value of that is somewhat debatable, as the real test is the quality of that person's pens, but it could add some credibility I suppose. (Now, perhaps in the process of pursuing endorsements, a person's skills are honed, techniques are perfected, they work with new materials or methods, and THAT helps them sell more pens.)

(2) They want to learn something, make a personal achievement, meet some goal they set for themselves.

Maybe I'm naive, but I just can't imagine someone doing it to gain a feeling of superiority here.  So, if I don't have an endorsement, and someone else does, my assumption is one of the two above. I don't feel any less accomplished because you've chosen to do something I have not. As long as the path is open for me too, I don't feel the least bit slighted or put off by your accomplishment.  

I think one of the things we have to do is to make perfectly clear what the point of these endorsements are.  Education, fun, and personal accomplishment are the reasons, NOT to create big egos, or develop some pointless class system._


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## Kurt Aebi (May 24, 2004)

I think it would be a great idea to allow differernt levels as long as the judging is fair and it is kept to a voluntary submission type of thing.  If it becomes manditory to be part of a level, I don't think I would stay, unless there is a "general" level that has no submission or judging and they can be called "Novice" that way even the pen hobbyiest can enjoy being part of an organization too!


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## jeff (May 24, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Kurt Aebi_
> <br />I think it would be a great idea to allow differernt levels as long as the judging is fair and it is kept to a voluntary submission type of thing.  If it becomes manditory to be part of a level, I don't think I would stay, unless there is a "general" level that has no submission or judging and they can be called "Novice" that way even the pen hobbyiest can enjoy being part of an organization too!


Kurt - I think that a good majority of us enjoy penturning as a hobby, but I still think a system of endorsements can be appealing to us.  Everyone is a member.  If someone wants to pursue an endorsement for their own reason, professional or simply personal satisfaction, it's there. If not, that's fine too, it's just a personal choice.


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## tipusnr (May 24, 2004)

I stopped following this for awhile as I was losing interest in how levels were named or achieved.  Or if this were done by a remote board, local endorsements, or a vote of my peers off the best photo I could provide.  It all was starting to sound somewhat political.

Tonight, when I logged in, (after hours of reading Yahoo Penturners Digests about perceived attitudes) I came back and read two very encouraging things; 1) The mission statement reaffirming that this site is primarily for free exchange of information about penturning, and 2) reminders from some of the other members that we all have the freedom to participate in the various credentialing (or merit badges) as we saw fit.

Now to my point.  If a large portion (maybe even a majority) of the members want such a system and there are people willing to fairly administer it - why not have one? Who is getting hurt?  

Not me.  I will continue to make pens that interest me and to get to read about the ideas, accomplishments, and procedures of some very creative and imaginative individuals.  I might even qualify for one of the levels and/or a few of the merit badges - who knows.

I hope you all can get this worked out soon so you can get back to making pens.

Thanks for listening!


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## melchioe (May 25, 2004)

Just one quick comment - the "levels" that have been proposed have been mentioned as part of a heirarchy - I don't see it as a hierarchy, as no one has proposed that the "higher" levels get more privleges or any advantages.  

In fact, it has been specifically stated that all levels have all access to all areas, and no one will be excluded.  Just wanted to chip in my 2 cents, that it's not a hierarchy in any sense.  It's more personal achievement levels, with the potential that all who want can make it to any level they want to commit the time to acheiving.

-e-


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## PensofColor (May 25, 2004)

Hi, everyone.  I have 2 opinions, but that wasn't listed as an option.  So, I guess I can live with what the group as a whole decides to do.

My 2 opinions, if any one cares, are:
1. "NO" I want this to be a fun place to go to meet people, learn new things, and maybe every once in a while, teach a thing or two.  I don't want it muddied up by the politics and government that often goes hand-in-hand with this type of policy.  (I am sure, however, that the fine gentlemen who run this show will keep the waters clear!)

2. "YES" Sure, why not?  If someone strives to be the best, and can get the recognition for that feat, then by all means, offer it to them.  Others are just as happy paddling along the stream and not making many waves for themselves, and that's fine too.

So, I guess my final say in this is Live and Let Live.  If it's what we all want, and doesn't negatively affect the ones who don't want it or who don't care, then it has my vote.


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## Kurt Aebi (May 25, 2004)

Jeff, thanks for clearing up my confusion.

Therefore, I think it would be great to have the possibility of gaining "levels" of accomplishment and having it be entirely optional.  

As to how each level is determined, I will just say to keep it fair and open to interpretation, but still maintain a minimum skill capability for each level.  Those skills and demonstration of those skills are something I cannot and therefore will not comment on as I am very much a <u>Novice</u> at this penturning stuff, but really am enjoying it so far. 

Thank You for this Forum, I think it is great that Novices and Experts can openly share in this hobby (business for some).  I just hope that the level system doesn't interfere with this philosophy.


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## Scott (May 25, 2004)

Hi Everybody!

This discussion seems to be moving along nicely!  But I do want to go back and address what DW said up above.

Yes, the very act of separating part of your group from another, no matter how good the reason, will generate hurt feelings among some.  Heck, my opinion of human nature indicates that if everything is perfect, some people will be upset because of that!  What that means is that there will always be dissention among any group.  There will always be something that bothers or insults someone.  If you fear that, you risk stagnation, because you will always be afraid to offend anyone!

This aspect of our society is one of the things that keeps us moving ahead.  There is enough discomfort with "the norm" that people refuse to be satisfied with that, and push themselves in new directions!  If everyone were average and normal, this would be a pretty boring world!

Some people will enjoy working their way through the levels.  Others will not.  Neither is better, and both are great!  Will there be hurt feelings?  Of course!  Human interaction almost seems to require that at some time.  Can we work through the hurt feelings?  Yes, of course we can, but don't expect that every problem will be solved, or every broken heart mended.  (do wop, shooby do wop!)

Like DW said, excellence is a worthy pursuit, but don't expect it to be easy, or for it to fit everybody's path.  But that doesn't mean we can't learn along the way!

Scott.


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## Doug Jones (May 31, 2004)

It all sounds too confusing,,, I just want to turn pens and gain as much knowledge as possible from more advance turners. I voted yes but not sure I made the right choice now.


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## Bob A (May 31, 2004)

Yes,Yes,Yes!  I joined Penturners.org within the last 2 months.  When I first joined it didn't seem to be as active as some other forums. Not a gripe as I have not posted regularly. But the idea of the IAP has just brought this place to life.  I have spent two hours trying to catch up.  

These levels give me something to strive for.  I can hardly wait for this to begin.  I have sold a grand total of 5 pens, so sales aren't going to keep me turning pens, but attaining levels of accomplishment most likely will. 

The above average penturners (or future Wizards)[] here have been nothing short of helpful.  I don't see titles or levels changing these people.

Bob A.


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## pecartus (May 31, 2004)

Okay, what a way to submit my first post. A couple of questions have come to mind reading this particular forum, Has anyone put forth a pleminary definition of the each level besides Penturner, Pen Crafter and Master Pencrafter and how each level can be obtained or have I missed the boat here and the discussion hasn't gotten that far? If I have missed the boat here, I apologize, but I would like a little more information on how these levels can be achieved and maintain fairness to the group overall before I vote on this. Just my thoughts.


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## YoYoSpin (May 31, 2004)

Patrick, there is a proposal on the table that everyone's been chewing on for the last week or so...the intent is to establish objective Accomplishments Recognition Criteria...here's a re-print:

â€œIAP Memberâ€...open to anyone who joins the group

â€œPenturnerâ€...The applicant will post photos of five well-made pens. â€œWell-madeâ€ means the pen works and is functional, is made in accordance with the kit manufactureâ€™s directions, and where the end-points of each lathe-turned piece meets the pen-kitâ€™s metal parts in a flush manner, as intended by the kit manufacturer. 

â€œPencrafterâ€...The applicant must have already reached the level of â€œPenturnerâ€, and successfully obtained any two â€œmerit badgesâ€ (by submitting photos of their work) from the following groups: 

1. Three well-made pens using three different pen kits
2. Three well-made pens using three different woods
3. One well-made pen that is customized in some way, not intended by the kit manufacturer as defined by the assembly instructions.

â€œMaster Penturnerâ€...The applicant must have already reached the level of â€œPencrafterâ€, and successfully obtained three additional â€œmerit badgesâ€ (by submitting photos of their work) from the following groups:

1. Three well-made pens with lathe turned parts made from Corian, polymer clay, metal, acrylic or other non-wood exotic material.
2. Three well-made pens that are significant departures from the pen-kit manufacturerâ€™s intent and instructions. Examples of a â€œsignificant departureâ€ are turning a from-scratch center band and not using the manufacturerâ€™s part, adding materials to the pen like o-rings, beads and coves in the lathe-turned parts and fabricating customized parts.
3. Three well-made pens with inlayed materials, such as crushed stone, glitter, colored CA or Polymer clay.
4. Three well-made pens that have an interesting, colorful, unusual or extremely durable surface finish like color-dying or use of a CA finish technique.
5. Three well-made pen and pencil sets, where the pen and pencil match each other in terms of look and feel.

â€œMaster Professional Penturnerâ€...The applicant must have already reached the level of â€œMaster Penturnerâ€, and certify that in the last 12 months, they have sold at least 20 pens for a total actual price exceeding $200. 

â€œGrand Master Penturnerâ€...To achieve the pentacle of penturning status and recognition, the applicant must have already achieved the status of "Master Penturner", plus at least five of the following eight criteria:

1. Contributed at least 50 pens to charity.
2. Had their pen-making work published in at least two national hard-copy magazines.
3. Written at least two how-to articles relating to pen making that have been published on one or more websites.
4. Have served as a Board member of the IAP for at least six months.
5. Have served as a Board member of the AAW for at least six months.
6. Have served as a Board member of a local Woodturning club that is affiliated with the AAW, for at least six months.
7. Given at least two pen-making related demonstrations to groups of ten or more other turners. 
8. Given at least two free pen-making demonstrations at local public schools, churches, universities or other public forums not aimed at woodturners.


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## pecartus (May 31, 2004)

Ed, Thank you for posting this for me. A lot of thought has gone into it, which is good. A question, why the AAW association or does this mean the local AAW chapter? Also, I would want to know why woodworker associations could not be included as well? There is alot of turning done in these groups as well. Me for example and a few of my closest woodworking friends. Just a thought.


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## Daniel (May 31, 2004)

Bob,
  Get used to this, I joined this group right near it's beginning. and every time I get a grip on it it changes again. It is sort of like having opened the Mall while it was still under construction. every time you walk into it there is a new store to check out. defenitly keeps things interesting.



> _Originally posted by Bob A_
> <br />Yes,Yes,Yes!  I joined Penturners.org within the last 2 months.  When I first joined it didn't seem to be as active as some other forums. Not a gripe as I have not posted regularly. But the idea of the IAP has just brought this place to life.
> 
> thanks for the below angle on the levels. I don't think I've seen it put that well.
> ...


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## Daniel (Jun 1, 2004)

Here Is my personal understanding about this question, But don't take it as an "official statment for the IAP. 
the IAP is being formed to promote the Craft Of "Penturning"
although woodworking includes Penturning. Penturning does not necessarily include all the interests in woodworking, or even woodturning.
one issue that has faced penturning in the past but is largly fading is that it is concidered by the woodworking and woodturning community at large to be a craft taken up by those that don't want to do "Real" woodworking. one of the duties of the IAP will be to discourage this opinion of our craft, and dimonstrate that all the skills associated with other forms of woodworking can and are used in the making of a pen, Even better we may show the others a trick or two.
 the development of this art is advancing at a fast rate with methods and techniques specific to Penturning. this Association is being organized in the interest of directing, preserving, and supplying the information concerning penturning to those that persue the art. 
  the inclusion of other woodworking interests would be at the risk of diluting the focus on penturning. this would be conterproductive to the pourpose of the IAP.
Hope that helps, or even makes sence. 




> _Originally posted by pecartus_
> <br />Ed,  A question, I would want to know why woodworker associations could not be included as well?


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## pecartus (Jun 1, 2004)

Daniel,

I wholeheartly agree with your personal viewpoint and yes, I agree that penturning is an art form that needs to be promoted as it own. My question was in regards to the requirements regarding the Grand Master Penturner level, where one of the requirements was to serve on the board of AAW or IAP or a local Woodturning chapter, why was woodworking chapters not included. Woodworking is the grandpa of all forms of wood art that has been segmented into thier own enties (woodturning, penturning, scroll, etc.) which to me is great, because it allows overall progressive growth of the art (wood) itself and allows individual expression in a specific form. Does this make sense or does it sound like I rambling (hope not, that is not my intention).


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## Scott (Jun 1, 2004)

Hi Patrick,

Naw, not rambling, and it makes perfect sense!  I think this is a good idea, and we will consider including it.  Daniel and I and a few others will be working on this over the next couple of weeks.  I hope we come up with something that makes sense!   ;-)

Scott.


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## Daniel (Jun 1, 2004)

Patrick,
  O.K. I get it. well my whole yarn won't do much good for you but maybe it will cler things up for others that are in the background going HUH!
  now that I get you r specific point, i have to agree with it. I take the requirement at thsi point to only be an example of experiences that are looked for. I would hope to see any significant woodworking Association be included but for now as Scott points out. we are only at the ground level with this. Mostly trying to find out if it is an overall acceptable idea. which it has been. now the duking it out begins and these sort of details are what will have to be set down. 
there is a specific association with the AAW here though so they may end up being predominate. not much discussion has been carried out concerning specifics and all of that you can see here on the forums. basically some specifics have been suggested. keep the comments and concerns coming they will be taken into account when the descussions begin. I for one want this to include as many suggestions as can be coordinated into one plan as possible. I will be keeping the serving at local chapters you have mentioned in mind. And welcome the recomindation of other woodworking Associations as well. can't promise anything but I would still not want to be without any suggestions. anyone feel free to post here or contact me privatly through e-mail. I want to start keeping a list of concerns, suggestions, and other issues in preperation for the work ahead.


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