# Help with Flat top twist mechanism!



## keithbyrd (Mar 28, 2015)

I have made a bunch of the Flat Top American Double Twist Ball point.  The one that requires a tenon. About every 4 or 5 something goes wrong but people like to buy them so I keep making them!
But here is a problem I can't figure out.  I assembled per all directions, tenon is cut 1 13/16 from clip end, clip bushing pressed into twist mechanism and pressed into pen from clip end.  So when I attach the cap and screw it onto the barrel section of the pen-it doesn't retract.  The ball point tip is extended and I can get no twist action.  I tested the mechanism before assembly - twists nice.  I have disassembled it twice, replaced the twist mechanism and it won't work.
Any ideas what I may have done wrong?  Customer supplied wood too!


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## magpens (Mar 28, 2015)

Which brand of kit are you using?  I have made 100 or so kits of this type from Lee Valley and had no problems whatsoever.  They are actually Berea kits .... flat top American double twist : 

http://www.bereahardwoods.com/pen-kit/sets/416_B-HP.html

http://www.bereahardwoods.com/pdf/5_FlatTopAmericanStylePenAssemblyBH.pdf


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## keithbyrd (Mar 28, 2015)

Mal - that is the exact kit that I use too!


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## magpens (Mar 28, 2015)

Keith, there is a warning in the instructions which I am sure you have seen.

!!Important: You must do the 
following or your pen will not 
operate properly

ATTENTION:
After you have pressed the center band on 
the cap blank, but before you press the 
twist mechanism into the cap blank, slide 
the twist mechanism through the cap tube. 
If it does not slide through th
e cap tube easily then use a small round file or course 
sandpaper wrapped on a dowel or other suitable
 rod to clean out the tube in the cap. 
Retest the fit and repeat the above proce
dure until the twist mechanism slides freely 
through the tube.


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## keithbyrd (Mar 28, 2015)

Good catch - I dont think I did that!!  Will disassemble and check it out!
Thanks!


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## gbpens (Mar 28, 2015)

There is another possibility for all ballpoint kits.. If the spring is placed  on the refill with the small end at the nib end it can jam, thus the refill will not retract. Just a guess.


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## keithbyrd (Mar 28, 2015)

Mal,
 That didn't work either
gbpens - double checked that - spring is on correctly.
I am going to cannibalize one more kit for the twist mechanism and if that doesn't work -will  ry to talk customer into a different style!


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## magpens (Mar 28, 2015)

Keith, with the cap unscrewed from the bottom barrel, does the refill move in and out freely and can you feel the spring compressing/decompressing.  I am sure you have tried this without my suggesting.  I am at a loss for other possibilities.  I have 32 of these finished pens on the table beside me right now and all of them operate perfectly.

Before pressing the transmission into the top end of the cap, have you tried screwing the transmission onto the bottom barrel and making sure the refill extends and retracts with that configuration.  I am sure you have tried this.


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## skiprat (Mar 28, 2015)

I could be talking nonsense here as I don't have one of the double twists to check my thoughts. :wink:

If I remember correctly then the retracting twist actually pushes the refill out a tiny bit more before it actually retracts. Imagine an upside down W...at the extended position the refill is located by the mid V. To retract it is advanced a tad then slides down the flanks of the W. Make sense?
So, if it doesn't retract could it be that the barrel is trimmed a bit too much so that there isn't enough space in the nib for the compressed spring before the refill is out of the V? 
If this is the case, then a quick fix would be to cut about a quarter off the spring. 

Please check my theory before cutting your spring:biggrin:


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## keithbyrd (Mar 29, 2015)

Thanks SkipRat - not a spring or length of barrel problem - double checked!
When I say it won't retract - there is no twist action.  When I screw the cap onto the middle section the refill starts protruding and stays out.  It is difficult to screw all the way down and I get no twist action.  turning the cap to retract only results in unscrewing the cap from the middle section.  Mal mentioned above what I thought the problem was - no clearance in the cap tube for the twist mech but  I double checked that too.


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## magpens (Mar 29, 2015)

Keith ... the refill protrudes when you screw the cap on, as I  understand. And then it won't retract, because you get no twist action.

How far does the refill protrude .... is it further than you would normally see ?


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## Smitty37 (Mar 29, 2015)

Keith - switch to a single action transmission. I have some in the store that will probably work. Actually, it seems like you could be over tightening when you screw the cap on - if you do that you can also get the problem you describe.


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## ELA (Mar 29, 2015)

I'm no expert, but it sounds like the refill is just a slight bit too long.  If the mech does in fact press the refill out a bit before retracting, then slightly shortening the refill should fix the problem.


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## keithbyrd (Mar 29, 2015)

ELA said:


> I'm no expert, but it sounds like the refill is just a slight bit too long.  If the mech does in fact press the refill out a bit before retracting, then slightly shortening the refill should fix the problem.



I have used 3 different  refills - the problem has to be in the twist mechanism.  Something is happening when I press it together causing it to lock up.  I will make another and see what happens- has to be a distorted or twisted tube??  I really dont know what else.
You all have given great suggestions and I appreciate it - I have check them out and still no work!  Back to scratch!


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## Mack C. (Mar 29, 2015)

Is there any chance you have cut the tenon on the incorrect tube? Obvious, the tenon should be cut on the shorter tube.

I use this kit exclusively for my Pens for Canadian Peacekeepers project and have never had a problem with this kit! I have donated many (200+). It is a great pen. The soldiers love them.

Sorry for the stupid question, but it's the only thing I can think of. I'd love for you to send me one you are having trouble with. My daughter lives in Highland.


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## magpens (Mar 29, 2015)

LOL, you'd think by now that one of us would have figured this out.  We're all trying to help Keith solve the problem !

Actually, Mack, the two tubes are of identical length, 2.01".  I have the kit in my hand.  Keith said it is the same kit as he uses.

This dimension agrees with the bushings and tubes data in the Library.

http://www.bereahardwoods.com/pen-ki.../416_B-HP.html



> Mal - that is the exact kit that I use too!
> __________________
> Keith Byrd, Milford, MI


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## nativewooder (Mar 29, 2015)

I'm shocked that nobody suggested calling the Berea tech department.  They are very good at solving problems with their products.


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## Mack C. (Mar 29, 2015)

magpens said:


> LOL, you'd think by now that one of us would have figured this out.  We're all trying to help Keith solve the problem !
> 
> Actually, Mack, the two tubes are of identical length, 2.01".  I have the kit in my hand.  Keith said it is the same kit as he uses.
> 
> ...


I had to go downstairs to check the only completed one I have. Forgot when comparing the tube lengths. Well I can't think of anything that hasn't been mentioned here. Wish I was in Milford!


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## Displaced Canadian (Mar 29, 2015)

It's been a while since I made one of those but I do remember having that issue. If memory serves, the bottom of the top tube may be rolled in or have a burr on the bottom of it. Take a small knife and be sure the end of the tube is clean and see if that works.


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## keithbyrd (Mar 30, 2015)

Mack C. said:


> magpens said:
> 
> 
> > LOL, you'd think by now that one of us would have figured this out.  We're all trying to help Keith solve the problem !
> ...



Me too - would get you over to help me!  

I ran a file through the tube to make sure it was clear- I will double check the burr on the end of the top tube again!
Thanks for all the suggestions!  No more shop time until Wednesday night - will see what happens!


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## keithbyrd (Apr 1, 2015)

I got it!!!  I checked, double checked, triple checked the clearance between the lower barrel just below the coupler and where the cap covers it! It was about 1/millionth too large and it jammed everything up!  I put the barrel back on the lathe, turned down a millionth, sanded and refinished put it back together (with another new twist mechanism so I now have two broken kits!) and walla!  It worked!
I appreciate all your help and suggestions!!
I hope the customer likes it after all this!

Thanks folks!


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## Smitty37 (Apr 1, 2015)

Glad you found the fix Keith,


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## magpens (Apr 2, 2015)

Glad you solved your problem !  I wouldn't have thought that a millionth would make such a difference :biggrin: !

By the way, where did you learn French ?  I think your "walla !" is meant to be "Voila !" !! :biggrin:

Hmmmm .... do we have any members in France ?


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## keithbyrd (Apr 2, 2015)

I didn't measure it precisely but it was close to a millionth!


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## Smitty37 (Apr 2, 2015)

keithbyrd said:


> I didn't measure it precisely but it was close to a millionth!


It's good you didn't measure it precisely Keith - most of us would be wondering where you got such an accurate measuring instrument.:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:


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