# Questions about Metal Lathe



## moke (Jul 31, 2017)

I bought a Grizzly metal lathe and I am preparing to do kit-less, or maybe custom pens would be a more apt description.  I intend to start as recommended by Ed in a recent thread and buy some less expensive kits to rob the parts.....clips, fountain pen inserts...etc....I think anyway....  Anyway, I have a few questions that I would like to post periodically for the brain trust here....

1.  The head stock on the lathe ( Grizzly G0752z) is 1 3/4x8.  I have a Laguana that is 1 1/4x8.  I have a adapter to use all my 1x8 stuff from my previous lathe.  It works great....( although someone said it is hard on the head-stock bearings)  I would like to get an adapter to use the same chucks on the grizzly....short of making one, I can not find anything....which I am a LONG ways from being able to do yet....does anyone know where I can get one?  I have a collet chuck, psi two jaw drilling chuck, and several others I would like to use.   Or...is there such thing as a  8x1 to mt 2, 3 or 4 adapter.  Or is the answer to forget these chucks and move on?

Using the 4 jaw chuck to drill seems like a huge PITA for square blanks....short of turning the blanks round on the wood lathe what do you guys use?  Or do you just buy round blanks?

2.  The lathe has a DRO....it is not as accuate as I assumed it would be....there is some backlash (?) --the cross slide slop, which I think I have adjusted out---well mostly, but the DRO seems to be off a .001 or .002 or so from the cross slide indicator on the wheel...but not consistently....is this as good as I can expect from a $100 or $200 DRO?

3.  I bought a set of carbide insert tools and an extra set of inserts...are most of you using that or HSS?

4. I can't find any you-tube metal lathe for pens...perhaps I am searching the wrong things...any ideas?

Thank you in advance for your help...sorry for being such a rookie here...
for something that is so similar, it is really quite different!!!!


----------



## More4dan (Jul 31, 2017)

1.  The head stock on the lathe ( Grizzly G0752z) is 1 3/4x8.  I have a Laguana that is 1 1/4x8.  I have a adapter to use all my 1x8 stuff from my previous lathe.  It works great....( although someone said it is hard on the head-stock bearings)  I would like to get an adapter to use the same chucks on the grizzly....short of making one, I can not find anything....which I am a LONG ways from being able to do yet....does anyone know where I can get one?  I have a collet chuck, psi two jaw drilling chuck, and several others I would like to use.   Or...is there such thing as a  8x1 to mt 2, 3 or 4 adapter.  Or is the answer to forget these chucks and move on?

Using the 4 jaw chuck to drill seems like a huge PITA for square blanks....short of turning the blanks round on the wood lathe what do you guys use?  Or do you just buy round blanks?

2.  The lathe has a DRO....it is not as accuate as I assumed it would be....there is some backlash (?) --the cross slide slop, which I think I have adjusted out---well mostly, but the DRO seems to be off a .001 or .002 or so from the cross slide indicator on the wheel...but not consistently....is this as good as I can expect from a $100 or $200 DRO?

3.  I bought a set of carbide insert tools and an extra set of inserts...are most of you using that or HSS?

4. I can't find any you-tube metal lathe for pens...perhaps I am searching the wrong things...any ideas?

Thank you in advance for your help...sorry for being such a rookie here...
for something that is so similar, it is really quite different!!!![/QUOTE]

The Lathe you have also has a mt4 in the headstock so 2 choices for an adapter.

I simply turn my blanks round between centers on my metal lathe and then use my 3 jaw chuck to hold it while drilling.  I made a dead center from a piece of drill rod and just chuck it in my 3 jaw with a live center in the tail.  Works great.  Looks like your lathe can pass a 1" diameter blank through the chuck and headstock.  The added benefit is the hole is parallel to the outside of the blank allowing me to sand the end to the tube with a fence 90 deg. to my sander w/o a special jig.

I have both Carbide and HSS.  For woods, plastics, aluminum, and brass I prefer HSS,  for Mild Steel it's been a toss up.  Damascus or other harder steels I use the carbide.  When you grind your own HSS bits you can adjust them for the material your turning.  With HSS and metals use a good cutting fluid, none required for Carbide and most metals.

The cross slide will only be accurate traveling in one direction with either the hand wheel or the DRO if it counts turns.  If your DRO use the actual movement of the cross it will be "accurate" in both directions. 0.001"-0.002" of backlash is about as good as it gets.   The DRO helps you from loosing count as you crank multiple turns.

There is a REAL advantage using the metal lathe for drilling and threading, you get an adjustable tailstock that can be aligned to the headstock and will stay aligned when you move the tail stock.  This is very helpful making kitless pens.

Danny


----------



## Artisan iron designs (Jul 31, 2017)

Dont know much about the 1st question just know a 4 jaw can be dialed in more accurately than a 3 jaw scroll chuck.  the 2nd question as far as I can afford there are 3 types of dro's glass scales magnetic scales and dont remember the name of the third but uses precision ball bearings i'm currently looking into a dro and the first reads to the nearist 0.0005" and costs $1500. the other is one that reads to 0.0001" and double the cost.  3rd question I only use carbide inserts mainly cut stainless and damascus.  4th if you can wait I am producing a dvd on making damascus pens on my 3 south bend lathes.  pls feel free to pm me any questions


----------



## Artisan iron designs (Jul 31, 2017)

Just thought of something for you.  If you mostly use square stock get a set of collet that hold square stock that will be the most accurate.


----------



## magpens (Jul 31, 2017)

I recommend turning your blanks round to start with, before drilling.

Did you get a 3-jaw self-centering headstock chuck when you bought the metal lathe ?
That should do the job if you mount a straight (not MT) dead center in the head chuck and a live center in the tail.
Turn the blank round using the between centers method.

Carbide inserts is the way to go IMHO.
I used a short piece of 3/8"x3/8" steel stock to make a holder for the Easy-Wood type of woodworking carbide inserts (which are better for wood and acrylic than the metal-working inserts) but either should get you there.  I have also used the round, yellow-colored, carbide inserts designed for metal working and they work fine for wood and acrylic.


----------



## frank123 (Jul 31, 2017)

If you are not sure of the accuracy of your DRO just set up a dial indicator, better still a test indicator, and do several repeat settings.

Backlash is more likely to cause inaccuracy reading the dials but should not affect the repeatability with the DRO.

If the DRO is not reading accurately that doesn't necessarily mean it is inaccurate since it could be set up and mounted sloppily which can be corrected easily enough with a little examination and adjustment (or modified mounting).


----------



## KenV (Jul 31, 2017)

Mike 

The precision on wood lathe scroll chucks is lots different than that expected from metal lathe chucks.   Likewise, the drill chucks used with wood lathes tend to be low cost with lots more runout than a machinist will want on a metal lathe.   

I suspect you will not want to fight the slop in wood turning equipment in seeking the precision to make custom pens that look and perform like a finely made instrument.  

Yes, you can get precision work from sloppy gear, but it is a lot more effort, and requires strict attention to processes and procedures.    That is why most are willing to dedicate more precise tooling to metal lathe work.


----------



## moke (Aug 1, 2017)

Wow guys....thank you for your help. 
Danny-Mal, that is very helpful...I never thought about using the 3 jaw like that...awesome idea...and lots faster than a chuck change.  It came with a 4 jaw...and maybe after some practice that can be fast, but right now I think I might be at it a while

Mal, I have made a bunch of carbide insert tools...whats a couple more right?
Where would I order a straight dead center?

Frank, this dro appears to be magnetic....I played for a couple of hours with the gap and straightening the holder so it is parallel and got it better but still is a couple of thousands slow to show on the DRO....then appears to be pretty good...and CS said they are only accurate to that.  What they call the Z axis or the length of the bed ( Is that right --Z? I thought that was Y but they call it Z) is right as rain and very dependable.  I took a feeler gauge and measured the gap of it's magnetic coupler and applied it to the cross feed and it made no difference.

Artisan...Put me on the list when the dvd comes out....I want one for sure...your pens are beyond awesome.

Ken...My father would have said, "don't try to rig it"....or "Don't be so damn cheap"
Thanks for not saying that and pointing out why it is not a good idea.  I read your posts a lot with interest and you obviously have a lot of knowledge to share. Thank you


----------



## magpens (Aug 1, 2017)

Mike,

Straight dead centers are not very easy to come buy .... you might find at KBCTools

A machinist friend made me one.

A good alternative is a diamond sharpening cone from Lee Valley Tools.
It's a bit of overkill but I use one all the time. . The diamond coating increases the friction to make a good drive contact with your wood and acrylic.

http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=41702&cat=1,180,42240,53317


----------



## More4dan (Aug 1, 2017)

You have a metal lathe, make you a straight dead center.  I used a 2 1/2" piece of 1/2" mild steel rod.  Set your compound to 60 deg. and make passes until it makes a point.  I just use a file to reestablish the taper if I accidently catch it with my chisel when turning.  You could use O1 or drill rod and heat treat it after turning if you want something more "maintenance free".  Takes all of 15 minutes to make one.  Mine works for wood and acrylic blanks without the need for spurs, just clamp a little tighter if it free spins.

I marked mine before turning so I could put it back in the chuck in the same orientation each time.  Guaranteed to be centered w/o run out. 

Danny


----------



## duncsuss (Aug 1, 2017)

moke said:


> Where would I order a straight dead center?



Rick Herrill -- click LINK then scroll down (or search) for straight shank dead centers


----------



## anthonyd (Aug 1, 2017)

Hi Mike,

As ken mentioned,  a wood chuck with an adapter would throw the accuracy of your lathe off by quite a bit. You have to buy a back plate adapter suited to your lathe and then machine the registration boss for a metal chuck to ensure less than 0.003 run out. I assume you own a set of ER32 collets from your wood lathe. These can also be used on your metal lathe if you purchase a 100 mm ER32 chuck and a compatible back plate from Little Machine Shop or Amazon etc. If you don't want to remove your chuck you can purchase a hex or square ER32 Collet block chuck which you can mount directly into your chuck jaws. It works and looks very similar to the collet chuck you use on your wood lathe. Check out Scriptorium Pens (https://www.instagram.com/scriptorium_pens/?hl=en) on Instagram where Renee creates many beautiful pens using all the tools I mention in this reply. You have to scroll around for the pictures and videos that show these tools in action.

I also turn all my blanks round on a Logan 10 inch lathe using a Sorby Steb MT2 Center (Sorby Stebcenters - Lee Valley Tools) which is placed in an MT3 to MT2 reducer sleeve at the spindle end and a revolving center in the tailstock. Your lathe would require an MT4 to MT2 sleeve to accomplish the same thing. If you don't want to remove your 3 or 4 jaw chuck you can mount a MT2 solid socket that has an MT2 internal socket on the inside but has no taper on the outside. The reducing sleeves and solid sockets are available from Victor Machinery exchange. The following link has both of them on the same page 
Drill sleeves, solid sockets, morse taper extension sockets for lathes and milling machines.
While you are on the page above, you should take a look at the drill extension sockets. I just ordered one and am waiting for it to arrive. These beauties allow you to extend your tail stock over the carriage to more easily support the end of your kitless ben bodies and caps while machining them.

Tony


----------



## moke (Aug 2, 2017)

Danny,
I got home late from work and ran right out to the shop.  I didn't have anything to turn this with so I stopped at the BORG hoping they had a little cold rolled, but they didn't so I got a 3/4 threaded rod.  Not knowing but hoping it was hard, I just figured it was harder than pen blanks.  I turned the threads off it and figured out how to get a 60 degree angle and did it....it was really easy. 

I  take it you marked yours by marking where a given chuck jaw goes, I read they were numbered for assembly somewhere. 

It was funny because I was in such a hurry I never checked the site and just ran right out there, then saw your post after I was done.  Is there anything else I should make while I'm at it?

I had some metal chips in my hair that I noticed after I got to bed...they were a little sharp and stuck pretty good....I take it I should wear a hat!!!

Mag--- thanks for the ideas....I am going to order one of those, but mostly to sharpen my hollow chisels with....I was wondering how to do that, and I can have it as a back up for this, if need be.

Tony-----I am going to order some of those for sure Solid sockets and a new holder for my collets...thanks for the links...I have ordered and recieved several mt adapters.  THe Head stock is mt4 and the tailstock mt 3 so I ordered several adapters. But I am going to order the drill extension....it looks handy.

duncsuss- I have ordered some stuff from Rick in the distant past....it is good stuff...thanks

Thank you for taking the time to help me guys......
Sorry the photo is not oriented the right way.....In Photoshop bridge it is the right way, so I didn't know how to fix it.....but I think you get the idea...


----------



## Curly (Aug 2, 2017)

The reason the 4 jaw is slow to use is that it is a 4 jaw independent chuck. They are great for holding irregular shapes as well as offsetting something to be turned or drilled. Nice when you have nicer material on one side of a blank you want to drill. 

You can get 4 jaw scroll chucks that work like the 3 jaw scroll chuck does. Costly but useful. My lathe is one of the gunsmith lathes from Grizzly and has a D5 mounting system for chucks. Basically 6 cams on the headstock shaft that lock on to 6 studs at the back of the chuck. Mounting and dismounting chucks is quick. 

I also have a 5C collet chuck for the lathe too. It is an older collet system than the ER series but it has the advantage of having to round, square, hexagonal, and collets with a face that you can machine to fit special jobs. Gripping a turned finial on the outside in order to machine the inside for example. 

I have some carbide tool inserts but only because where I worked before they had a special machining operation that only use 2 of the 3 corners of the insert and then they tossed them so I had the machinists save them for me. 

I use a tool holder from Australia called a Diamond tool holder from Eccentric Engineering. It uses a high speed steel tool that is sharpened on one face only, so real easy to keep sharp.  It's the tool I reach for first and is the most versatile. If you are stuck with the idea of carbide so you don't need to sharpen there is a company called Warner that make HSS inserts. They are very sharp.

You will find with kitless you will find and develop tools and methods that work for you and your situation that would never have occurred to another pen turner.


----------



## dogcatcher (Aug 2, 2017)

A metal lathe is best learned with some actual in person instructions.  There are forums for the older Craftsman metal lathes as in Yahoo groups.  Also a couple that deal with Taig and Sherline mini metal lathes. So I am guessing the same for the Grizzly lathes.  A quick look around on Google will probably get you Online help and lead to someone that is local or at least within commuting distance.


----------



## More4dan (Aug 2, 2017)

Great looking dead center!
There is a Fastenal store in Cedar Rapids that will likely have aluminum, brass, and steel rod. Not the cheapest but convenient. 
www.onlinemetals.com is a good place to get most anything metal or plastic for turning stock.  They sell small quantities at reasonable prices. Amazon and Ebay can sometimes be reasonable. 

Making your own tools is a kick. Need bushings? turn a set.  You can even make your own specialty taps down the road. PM me if you have any questions as you learn. I had a machinist class 25 years ago so mostly had to reteach myself.  These smaller lathes are pretty forgiving. Aluminum is a great material to learn metal turning. 

Get some HDPE rod to turn bushings for CA coating finished pen bodies. I also use them for sanding to keep my metal bushings from being sanded down. 

Danny


Sent from my iPhone using Penturners.org mobile app


----------



## randyrls (Aug 3, 2017)

moke said:


> I had some metal chips in my hair that I noticed after I got to bed...they were a little sharp and stuck pretty good....I take it I should wear a hat!!



Yes;   AND WEAR SAFETY GLASSES!!!!!!   ----- ALWAYS!


----------



## randyrls (Aug 3, 2017)

To join the thread;   This channel on You Tube is a good one.  In the video noted, he shows how to set the compound slide for precise angles.  Many of his videos are showing techniques for metal lathes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCllVu4K738&t=306s


----------



## moke (Aug 3, 2017)

Thanks to everyone for taking the time to help me.  After turning pens for 12 years or so, I truly feel like a rookie again!  But I am getting it figured out, slowly but surely.  I just am now diving in and doing it. As long as I don't break my lathe or me, what can it hurt!  I've broken my share of blanks in my life so I may as well continue the tradition!!

Last night I was doing some experimenting...I took some round bar stock, filed a flat spot on part of it and stuck  it in my tool holder, tightened it down with 6 or 8" of the round part hanging out, turned it parallel to a blank and used it as tool rest for my wood turning tools....it worked sweet....is there any bad ideas for doing that?  

Pete---last night I took my PSI collet chuck and mounted it in the chuck...it has a flange in the back that fit in nicely.....I took my dial indicator and measured the run out and it was around.002 to .004----is that acceptable?  Otherwise I was going to get a hex collet chuck or a 5c.   A friend took an old HSS holder and milled it down to 1/2 and it fits in my tool holder and is very well centered.

Dogcather---I joined "hobby-Machinist" web site....I have just been lurking there for a while...is that an ok site?

Randy--You tube is a good friend of mine....I will watch that tonight.  Also, I am a photographer...with out my right eye...I am looking for a new profession (not that that would be a bad thing sometimes)....I sleep with saftey glasses on!  Thanks for the concern!

Danny--Fastenal is accross town and right next to Grainger!!  Great idea!!  I would appreciate a PM now and again to you...thank you for the offer.

Thanks again all....


----------



## dogcatcher (Aug 3, 2017)

The Hobby Machinist is a pretty good place to learn, but it can be way too advanced at times.  But I haven't been on in a longtime, I am at the level I need to be for the "jobs" that I want to do.  

For practice turning I go to a local scrap metal yard, they had all kinds of aluminum rods, flats, angle pieces etc..  I found it was cheaper and easier when counting my time to use round stock to start with.   Last time I needed steel, any steel, I did not care as long as it was about 5/8" in diameter.  A 20 foot stick was about $9.  I needed 2 foot, I have 18 foot for future projects.


----------



## Curly (Aug 3, 2017)

Is the .002 to .004 measurement on the chuck body or on a rod in a collet in the PSI chuck in the metal lathe chuck. . In the 3 jaw scroll or in the 4 jaw indipendant? .002 on the rod would be expected but .004 is equal to unacceptable runout when matching the blank to a kit part Right? If you are going to use a 5C hex block then make sure the 3 jaw has minimal runout or the errors could stack up. If you use a square block in the 4 jaw you can adjust out almost all the runout. I'm not a fan holding holders in chucks unless there is no better way. A dedicated chuck is still the best approach. Like I said before you will develop techniques that work to you.

Your toolbar in the holder is exactly the way I do it. It just a little more awkward because of the height and parts of the carriage being in the way.


----------



## moke (Aug 3, 2017)

Dogcatcher--can you recommend a site...you could pm if you don't feel comfortable making a recommendation on the post

Curly-- the run out was on the body of the chuck....I'll look into the 100 chuck that was recommended for er32 collets.....thank you


----------



## dogcatcher (Aug 3, 2017)

I got started with this forum Home Model Engine Machinist - Powered by vBulletin 

At the time I had an old Craftsman metal lathe with a rocker tool post and that was it.  I got to the point I could make tooling for my other hobby, and I haven't been back on in several years.  But and a lot bigger source of help was a machinist that "adopted" me at 65 years old, he was a young guy that taught me more about metal lathes than anything else.  I taught him the basics of woodworking and he taught me the basics of the metal lathe.

Now I am using a Taig lathe, there are also a couple of forums out there, but I don't pay a lot of attention to them.  As long as I can accomplish what I am wanting to do I try not to muddle the mind with other stuff.  Although I could use the Taig for pens, it is not what I use.  I have made my own TBC bushings and my own version of a live center for penmaking, and a few other little "toys" that I wanted to try.  I am a woodturner first, a penturner is farther down the list.  Doing miniature turnings is now getting more of my attention.


----------



## moke (Aug 4, 2017)

Thank you dog catcher, I will look into that.


----------

