# Why ask for critique and comments if you don't really want them?



## Carl Fisher (Jun 13, 2014)

So this happened recently on another forum but I do see hints of it here from time to time.

*<Caution, stepping up on a soap box for a moment>*

Why do people ask for critique of their work but when you offer anything other than 100% positive feedback they go on the defensive and get their feathers ruffled and start arguing with you or throw their hands up and go stick their head in the sand?  If all you want is a pat on the back, then don't ask for a critique or any other form of "how can I improve" feedback.

I think this is half the reason you constantly see the canned 'great fit and finish' response to pens that many times aren't. People are tired of providing honest feedback only to get abused for providing it. This unfortunately isn't really helping anyone improve. 

If a critique is requested, be ready to receive it good or bad.  If you're not ready for it, don't ask for it.

*<Stepping back off the soap box>*

Many times I don't feel qualified to provide feedback so I don't.  In those cases where I do, it's only to help someone improve next time by offering lessons I've learned along the way.


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## Dan Masshardt (Jun 13, 2014)

It certainly can happen.  

I try to offer honest and respectful comments even if they aren't fully affirmative.  

For me personally, I'm open to any kind of comments whether I request them or not.  

Some things are subjective. (Proportions etc) others more objective.   I also try to make clear which type of comment I'm making.


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## Smitty37 (Jun 13, 2014)

Carl Fisher said:


> So this happened recently on another forum but I do see hints of it here from time to time.
> 
> *<Caution, stepping up on a soap box for a moment>*
> 
> ...


Personally I never ask for feedback..what's done is done and some of my turnings turn out better than others.  

Since I don't make my own blanks, I'm not looking at how others might see the blank, I sell very few pens so I'm not looking at what might make a good seller. So I look at comments and read them, but never ask for them.


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## kingkeyman (Jun 13, 2014)

I would rather see the comments that pick apart my work. Recently I put some pictures up and somebody told me in a kind way that my pens were fine but the photos were bad. I appreciated that comment, and I've been trying to figure out how to take better pics ever since. Please be tough on these pictures, how else are we going to get better?


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## Carl Fisher (Jun 13, 2014)

I typically won't provide critical comments on subjective matters.  Blank composition and form is all a matter of personal preference.


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## Joe S. (Jun 13, 2014)

I've noticed that too and it really bugs me. For a while I would critique pens the way I would want mine critiqued, but I started to feel like I was being mean.

Maybe we should have a "Critique My Pens" forum along with the SOYP forum. :biggrin:


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## Brooks803 (Jun 13, 2014)

Joe S. said:


> I've noticed that too and it really bugs me. For a while I would critique pens the way I would want mine critiqued, but I started to feel like I was being mean.
> 
> Maybe we should have a "Critique My Pens" forum along with the SOYP forum. :biggrin:


 
I'm in the same boat Joe. Most people will post in SOYP bc they're proud of their work. I don't want to sound mean or come across that way, but it'd be hard not to if I'm constantly picking apart peoples work.

I don't mind pointing out something fairly obvious but for me unless I have the pen in hand and can really hold and see it I won't critique to much unless it's about personal tastes.


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## kovalcik (Jun 13, 2014)

I do agree with Carl in that if you ask for C&C, be prepared to hear it.  But, if I can critique some of the critics, some of them just do not get how to give constructive criticism.  As Dan said you have to be respectful.   Most people are, but I have seen a couple that seem to delight in pointing out flaws without offering suggestions on how to improve or pointing out things they got right.  I think you also have to take into acount if you are critiqueing a beginner or a more advanced turner.  While you could point out 10 things a beginner got wrong, it is much more constructive and manageable for them to focus on 1 or 2 major issues first instead of being buried in details.  If someone underturns their barrels and has ridges in their CA finish, I am not going to mention that they should assemble the barrels so the grain matches better.

And finally, lets face it, even if we ask for C&C, we also want our egos stroked a little.  After all, this is a hobby for most of us.  It is supposed to be fun.  There HAS to be something good they can point out in  their comments. 

Remember, when you are asked for C&C, you are being asked as a mentor, not as a judge.  Make your comments reflect that. A good critique should leave a person knowing what they did right, where they need to improve, and how to make that improvement.   

(Note: This is not aimed at anyone in particular and certainly not Carl, so I hope noone thinks I am dumping on them personally.)


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## Dan Masshardt (Jun 13, 2014)

Some great points here about where people are on on the beginner to intermediate etc scale. 

In life and in pens there are two - at least - types on critical comments.  

One is given in respect and care and wants the other to be the best they can be. 

The other wants to tear down to make themselves feel or look better or some other motive.  Bad.  

I try to affirm something in every critique I offer.


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## mark james (Jun 13, 2014)

I am with all the above comments.  Personally, when I see "particular" individuals are posting comments - I'll read them because I suspect from past posts they will give an honest critique WITH SUGGESTIONS and HINTS FOR IMPROVEMENTS.

Other "individuals"...  well, often simply a critical comments with no effort to Teach or mentor others.  Other than my 2 cats, there's nobody else in my basement to suggest ways to improve.  Trial and error are great, but suggestions are quicker and help me to "get out of my box" and look/approach something differently!


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## jyreene (Jun 13, 2014)

Agree and understand with pretty much all said. I'll offer honest feedback if I have a way I think would fix the problem or if something is just off to me. They don't like the feedback they don't need to be on a forum where we are supposed to help each other. Holding the pen is best but a decent photo can be pretty helpful.


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## robutacion (Jun 13, 2014)

I certainly agree with most points discussed/mentioned here, being truly honest with someone else's work, is not an easy task and regardless which way you approach it, most people are not really prepare to receive any sort of criticism from their work, they do it based on the principal that, it seems to be the normal thing to do, and they see it be done all the time however, they want to get the pleasant and sweet works as a reward from their work, this is a lot more critical from beginners view point, they need acceptance and encouraging works for everyone, even themselves know that, their work is not flawless and assume that trained eyes won't see it.

Sure, everyone needs words of encouragement, they bring confidence and the want to do some more however, not many folks really expect true comments even if they know they come from someone with more experience than them so, is a fine line to consider, for those that, are willing by request to examine someone else's work and give an honest and true opinion, without being "tagged" as nasty, cruel, mean, etc, etc,.

If I see someone that has great potential, as a willingness to learn and is open to fair criticism, I will do my best to provided all the information I see fit, good or bad, I do no hesitate to make my opinion known nor, I will be intimidated/discouraged by those that have a natural dislike for me or for anything I say or do.

I have mentored a lot of people in my life, that was based in sharing my opinions, experience and "judgment" for every single situation they had to endure, I'm yet to be accused of providing bad information, useless opinions, and monkey suggestions so I believe, I'm perfectly capable to be a positive influence, to many people out there, I get the validation of that, quite often, a great reward, indeed...!

EVERYONE, as something to learn, no exceptions...!

Cheers
George


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## mredburn (Jun 13, 2014)

If you thought you had a great pen and asked for c&c and they come in less that favorable it can be a natural reaction to defend your work.  I now hold my critiques for more advanced pen makers.  I feel that if they are showing advanced work they want  honest feedback to help get them to the next level not just "nice pen " good job" responses. I will comment on a pen that is not the best executed workmanship if it has a good design and will focus on that aspect.  Part of the problem with critiquing others work arises from those of us that are slightly more detail oriented than some of the other turners. Part of it is personal preferences in color choices or material choices and then there is the 10 or 20 responses to the pen for "spot on" and "great job" that are contrary to your opinion.


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## Cmiles1985 (Jun 13, 2014)

Great thread Carl. I hope I am not guilty of this. I know that I have received some very valuable critiques from George (robutacion) on making blanks. I have received valuable feed back (although I may not have liked the way it was worded) from edstreet in regards to CA finishing. I have since been working on my CA finishing technique, and feel that it has improved significantly, but I still have a ways to go to get the "perfect" finish.

I started this hobby by jumping in head first. There was no "getting my feet wet." I don't have a woodcraft within 100 miles that I could go take an evening course on turning a pen. I have gone solely off of expensive trial and error, YouTube videos and, of course, forum advice! I love that there is a group of folks willing to mentor so many others. On the other hand, what has been said above is very true: critiquing something to offer valuable feedback via a picture is difficult. I, for one, operate generally using my phone for posting and reading. I have a small home and shop, so setting up my photo tent is a bit of an ordeal. Therefore, most photos are iphone photos...that is why I've reduced the number of photos I post, as I realize image quality needs to be there to really show off your work for constructive criticisms.

Anyhow, I've rambled enough for now. I really want to thank everyone here for the teachings they have offered.


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## Sandsini (Jun 13, 2014)

As a newb here, I have to say that I am really impressed by the number of folks who have gone out of their way to say nice things about my first pens and share constructive advice on how to improve my work. Without a doubt this forum is the most well mannered, kind and considerate forum I have ever dealt with. Going through the SOYP area never fails to fill me with warmth about how wonderful the people here are. Generous with their knowledge, and generous with their desire to please and assist their penmaking bothers and sisters.

I'm sure that I will get a little more jaded and critical once I have been here for awhile, but you guys probably don't realize how great you have it. 

Really. 

Eric


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## ssajn (Jun 13, 2014)

Years ago I asked Ed Brown what he thought of a pen I made. His reply was "Nice" I then asked what he really thought. On go the inspectors glasses. He ask if I wanted him to be honest. You bet,rip it apart. OK first of all ---- second----and ----etc etc. Since then every time I make a pen I think back to then. In my opinion negative feedback is more helpful and for me welcome. Thanks to Ed I'm a better pen turner.


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## Haynie (Jun 13, 2014)

Why are are some people sensitive?  Because they are people. They may ask for C&C but they are not prepared for it.  If they get their feathers ruffled DON'T argue with them.  

You say
Looks like your blank is not square with the component part.  Try a sanding disk to square the barrel.  Those barrel squaring tools often leave an uneven surface that is not obvious until you put the pen together.

They hear
  Don't you know how to square a blank?  That is the most basic skill.  Doofus.  If you can't do that you might as well sell your tools and take up reality TV watching as your hobby.  What were you thinking when you posted the bit of arse sausage for others to see.  You should be ashamed of yourself.

Some people are like that.  It is not worth going further.  

You should see how defensive people get on photography forums when other comment on their photos.


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## Rounder (Jun 13, 2014)

I honestly wish the pens I have posted were critiqued more "truthfully". To improve on anything you need someone that knows what they are doing to guide and teach you. People make mistakes and don't always see them. Most don't want to admit that they don't have the knowledge they need to properly do things. I turn practically everything I do with a homemade carbide tool because I have never been able to comfortably master skews and gouges. If I had a "guide", I would be able to learn it better. Somethings you just don't pick up easily. People may not remember what you say, but they will always remember how you make them feel, therefore criticism must be done tactfully with most people. Myself, slap me in the face with it and say "HEY dumb***, it is supposed to be this way"! That is just me though.


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## Smitty37 (Jun 13, 2014)

*Opinion*

If people ask for C & C they sould include a little notice of what they know about the pen.  If there is a mistake they know of but chose not to fix - mention it.  Then you don't care if others see it.

I have a number of those mistakes lying around and my desk is awash with the ones like this

​ - it's obvious why I assemble them and I never bother to take one apart. So I am very used to seeing pens that are not perfect.  

Some are new comers posting their first pen and really want to be told everything they can improve on.  The first dozen or so I made were all underturned at the tip and cap and often at the centerband as well. It would have helped to have someone tell me...I was comparing them to the PSI catalog and you might not believe this but sometimes the pens they picture are a tad less than perfect.


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## mark james (Jun 13, 2014)

View attachment 117789​ 
Smitty, how did you steal all MY desk pens!!!


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## Carl Fisher (Jun 13, 2014)

Smitty37 said:


> I was comparing them to the PSI catalog and you might not believe this but sometimes the pens they picture are a tad less than perfect.



I've often wondered about those.  I see that in several of the catalogs with things quite blatently over or under turned. I can only expect it's due to having to whip something together in time to get the pictures done and in the catalog.


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## Cwalker935 (Jun 13, 2014)

As a newbie to this forum and as a relative newbie to pen turning (1 1/2 years) and as an individual that has not had a lot of face to face interaction with other pen turners, I post things with some trepidation.  One I am not sure if I am worthy and two I think that my work is not all that original.  Therefore, when I post something I've made, I am looking for some affirmation and for gentle but constructive feedback.  

When I look at the work of others, I heed Thumper's Mom's admonition "if you can't say anything nice say nothing at all".  I do generally speak up when I like something.  I am hesitant to comment on the work of those folks who are obviously very advanced.  Sometimes, I am amazed at the skill and creativity but simply do not like the end result.

All of that having been said, I sometimes see numerous positive comments on things that I do care for and wonder what I am missing.


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## ssajn (Jun 13, 2014)

Hey Smitty you turned those down just a tad too far.
:biggrin:


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## Chatham PenWorks (Jun 13, 2014)

This is supposed to be a forum for helping those in the community grow and learn. Constructive criticism should be the default expectation when posting ones work in SOYP or OTWM. Seeing as we're all human, and mostly male, a little bit of nonconstructive criticism should be expected from time to time, as well. And sometimes just poor delivery of the good kind. Overly sensitive posters, as well as too PC posters, have done a great disservice to the IAP community as a whole. Waaay too many poorly done pens (clearly overturned, OOR, sanding lumpy CA........) are posted, and quickly replied to with a string of "superb fit and finish" and the like. This does the poster no favors. They don't learn anything, make more pens with the same mistakes, and post them to the same glowing reviews. Not only do we not learn and grow this way, but we strengthen bad habits and techniques. 

If you post a pic, and want no critique, then say so in your post. Otherwise, act like an adult (the majority of us are) and take in whatever comments are given. Respond to compliments with a thank you. Respond to constructive criticism with a thank you and questions, answers, or respectful rebuttal. You know, just like in a regular adult conversation. Ignore any disrespectful critique - a benefit of being on a forum and not face to face. 

For those responding to posts, be honest above all else. If your comments are taken poorly, move on. If you see that your comments are consistently taken poorly, and by lots of different people, rethink your delivery. Sadly, some of the most knowledgable, and with the most to offer, can also be the most obnoxious.


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## skiprat (Jun 13, 2014)

Ok, I'll give my tupence worth too. 
I consider myself an pretty reasonable pen maker and feel that I do contribute to our hobby via this site. 
My ego likes praise as much as the next guy and really enjoy a bit of ribbing from my peers ( fellow members ) about what I did good or not so good.  
I do try to be honest with my opinions but I'm afraid that most of the guys I give critique to are Brits. All of the American members that I felt comfortable give 'my opinions' to, have left this site, or very very rarely visit.
(Butch, Jeff, George, Keith, The Cat and several others, etc)  

I know in my heart that some of the praise and 'likes'  I receive  sometimes come solely from being a relative 'old popular member' rather than just on the merits of my work. 

That being said, it really pees me off big time when I see an outstanding piece of craftmanship from someone that may not be quite as popular as some of our older members and it gets very few comments.

We have some older members that make very mediocre pens but they are swamped with 'likes' and comments like flies round poo.  Just because they may be popular?


Sometimes I think the new 'like' button should be removed, but then again it has it's advantages.

SOYP is subtitled as Show us your BEST work, or something like that. Don't expect tons of praise for average work and never qualify it with something like....'just a quick cell phone pic cos I couldn't be arsed setting up my camera' 
If you don't care enough to try and take a decent pic then no-one will care to comment.

:biggrin:


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## Smitty37 (Jun 13, 2014)

ssajn said:


> Hey Smitty you turned those down just a tad too far.
> :biggrin:


Yeh, I over compensated for all of the ones I underturned when I first got started....:biggrin:


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## jeff (Jun 13, 2014)

Joe S. said:


> I've noticed that too and it really bugs me. For a while I would critique pens the way I would want mine critiqued, but I started to feel like I was being mean.
> 
> Maybe we should have a "Critique My Pens" forum along with the SOYP forum. :biggrin:



Only the really old timers will remember that we had a "Critiques" forum. Here's the post I made when we closed that forum on September 20 2005.



> After consulting with the moderators and some others, I've decided to shut down the Critiques forum. Despite clear guidelines and gentle nudging, that forum has become just another Show Off Your Pens, and we don't need duplicate forums.
> 
> My intention with Critiques was to provide a place for serious, thoughtful critiques of our work. I know that it's hard to avoid complimenting beautiful work, and we ended up with a lot of "nice pen, good job" posts, exactly what a formal critiques forum was supposed to help us avoid.
> 
> ...



Here were the guidelines for that forum:



> *General:*
> 
> The intent of this forum is to provide a place for members who desire serious, constructive critique of their work. This is not the place to get a bunch of "Nice Pen, Good Job" posts. If you just want to show off your work without critique (and there is nothing wrong with that!), visit the Show Off Your Pens forum.
> 
> ...



I am not opposed to resurrecting a specific critiques forum if the consensus is that it will benefit the membership.


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## Smitty37 (Jun 13, 2014)

Chatham PenWorks said:


> This is supposed to be a forum for helping those in the community grow and learn. Constructive criticism should be the default expectation when posting ones work in SOYP or OTWM. Seeing as we're all human, and mostly male, a little bit of nonconstructive criticism should be expected from time to time, as well. And sometimes just poor delivery of the good kind. Overly sensitive posters, as well as too PC posters, have done a great disservice to the IAP community as a whole. Waaay too many poorly done pens (clearly overturned, OOR, sanding lumpy CA........) are posted, and quickly replied to with a string of "superb fit and finish" and the like. This does the poster no favors. They don't learn anything, make more pens with the same mistakes, and post them to the same glowing reviews. Not only do we not learn and grow this way, but we strengthen bad habits and techniques.
> 
> If you post a pic, and want no critique, then say so in your post. Otherwise, act like an adult (the majority of us are) and take in whatever comments are given. Respond to compliments with a thank you. Respond to constructive criticism with a thank you and questions, answers, or respectful rebuttal. You know, just like in a regular adult conversation. Ignore any disrespectful critique - a benefit of being on a forum and not face to face.
> 
> For those responding to posts, be honest above all else. If your comments are taken poorly, move on. If you see that your comments are consistently taken poorly, and by lots of different people, rethink your delivery. Sadly, some of the most knowledgable, and with the most to offer, can also be the most obnoxious.


I somewhat agree - but not entirely.  Most of the pictures I post (if I made the pen) ARE my best work but over half are made for me (my collection) by other turners and I am posting the pictures just to acknowledge their efforts, good or bad.  Most are extremely good and I am not looking for anyone to tell how a contributer could improve his/her work.  I also think, true or false, that a few members here like to see what is going into my collection.


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## plantman (Jun 13, 2014)

Most of you out there who have been on this site for a while, know me by my long and detailed threads or replys. Maybe to long sometimes !! But if someone is going to make an effort to ask a question, or show us the work they did, they deserve more than a one or two word answer !! I try to not only answer their question, explain why I answered in that manner, and maybe also add a little backround information that might help someone in the future. If I c/c someone's work I try not to say anything that would make them feel bad or incompetent in any way, shape, or form. I tell them what I like and may suggest ways to improve some aspect of their pen or presentation. I once had a thread with 5 or 6 pens shown in it. One person's c/c was that he liked all but one. I replied to him, Thank you for an honest c/c, but just for my personal satisfaction, what didn't you like about that one pen so I can improve on it next time?? No reply !! I agree with everybody, if you can't handle bad or constructive c/c, don't ask for it !!    Jim  S


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## mark james (Jun 13, 2014)

Jeff:  A "Critique" Forum gets a YES vote from me!  For all the obvious reasons!


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## MarkD (Jun 13, 2014)

One point I would like to bring up is that it's somewhat difficult to really critique a pen from a photograph. Lightning, angles, focus, can all play a part in making a pen look good or bad. Infact, the photography of the pen may take as much, if not more, skill and creativity as making a pen. This is quite evident when people are starting out with pens and photography. Many times when someone is new and could really benefit from constructive criticism the pictures are not of the quality where the problems are evident. 
Sure you can see the design and the form of the pen but it's not always easy to correctly determine things like fit and finish. Likewise, it seems that most of the people that have the photography part down have also pretty much mastered the pen making part.


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## workinforwood (Jun 13, 2014)

Those soapy pants make you look young and slender Carl.


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## workinforwood (Jun 13, 2014)

now...lets all get organized and tell Steve (skiprat) his pens are ugly and write with an atrocious accent!


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## Carl Fisher (Jun 13, 2014)

workinforwood said:


> now...lets all get organized and tell Steve (skiprat) his pens are ugly and write with an atrocious accent! ��





workinforwood said:


> Those soapy pants make you look young and slender Carl.



:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

WAIT, are you saying I'm NOT???


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## Chatham PenWorks (Jun 13, 2014)

Smitty37 said:


> I somewhat agree - but not entirely.  Most of the pictures I post (if I made the pen) ARE my best work but over half are made for me (my collection) by other turners and I am posting the pictures just to acknowledge their efforts, good or bad.  Most are extremely good and I am not looking for anyone to tell how a contributer could improve his/her work.  I also think, true or false, that a few members here like to see what is going into my collection.



Understandable. When you you post pens others have given you, you always make that clear. I think it's obvious to most everybody you're not looking for critique of those, but just sharing what you were happy to receive.


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## Chatham PenWorks (Jun 13, 2014)

MarkD said:


> One point I would like to bring up is that it's somewhat difficult to really critique a pen from a photograph. Lightning, angles, focus, can all play a part in making a pen look good or bad. Infact, the photography of the pen may take as much, if not more, skill and creativity as making a pen. This is quite evident when people are starting out with pens and photography. Many times when someone is new and could really benefit from constructive criticism the pictures are not of the quality where the problems are evident. Sure you can see the design and the form of the pen but it's not always easy to correctly determine things like fit and finish. Likewise, it seems that most of the people that have the photography part down have also pretty much mastered the pen making part.



When critiquing, you have to work with what's there. If the pics are bad enough that you can't really see what's going on, that's also something that the poster needs to hear.


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## Dan Hintz (Jun 13, 2014)

When I ask for C&C, I actually want just that... the simple "That's a nice pen" comments are fine, but I prefer to see more detailed comments such as "I liked the pairing of blank to kit, brings out the curl of the grain" or "if you had used brass instead of aluminum for segmenting, it would have been more eye-catching".

Like it or leave it, that kind of comment is constructive in either form.  It shows what you're doing correctly and what you should think on longer the next time around.


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## GRMiller (Jun 13, 2014)

As for me I haven't showed any work only because right now health wise I haven't turned anything since November.  Most of all the ones who do ask for C and C in there own way help me out as well.  I don't know how many times where I said WOW I didn't notice that or seen that.  For example on pens I thought the Gold would be a more wanted pen but they always seemed to get picked over when I let people choose what they want.  I got that info from here.  Who would have thought Sears would have photo booths.  The list can go on.


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## skiprat (Jun 13, 2014)

workinforwood said:


> now...lets all get organized and tell Steve (skiprat) his pens are ugly and write with an atrocious accent!


 

Jeff, old buddy, you guys are Yanks and therefore already write with atrocious accents!! No other nation on the planet has screwed up the English language as much as you lot!!! But just remember that you are actually a Plastic Yank, being from Canada.....  :wink::laugh:

Just kidding of course....it's actually nice to see you posting here again:wink:


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## Smitty37 (Jun 13, 2014)

skiprat said:


> workinforwood said:
> 
> 
> > now...lets all get organized and tell Steve (skiprat) his pens are ugly and write with an atrocious accent! ��
> ...


With the possible exception of the England, Wales, Scotland, Australia, South Africa, New Zealand and Canada......Besides that we speak American English.......


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## skiprat (Jun 13, 2014)

Smitty37 said:


> With the possible exception of *the* England, Wales, Scotland, Australia, South Africa, New Zealand and Canada......Besides that we speak American English.......


 
Yes Leroy, that was my point..what was yours???:biggrin:


Mmmm......I rest my case, M'lord....:wink:


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## Dalecamino (Jun 13, 2014)

When I first started posting pen photos, I would ask for C&C. It didn't take long to get exactly what I asked for.:redface: It was a bit shocking, to the point that, I tended to argue or, defend myself. which didn't help make friends with some who took the time to do as I asked. Not a good thing. Many are still here and, do make recommendations. I learned to accept C&C as constructive criticism although, IT STILL HURTS!!! Redburn!!:biggrin: I would rather feel the pain and, improve than, try and, figure everything out on my own. I'm not that smart. :redface: All that said, I would rather my C&Cs come from someone who has extended experience with the craft and, knows what they're talking about. Mike Redburn (for one) KNOWS about pen making and, I consider him a friend. Usually, when I post a pen, he lets me know if something isn't right or, I could do something else with it. I don't ask for C&C these days. It is what it is.:wink: But I know I can count on a few to tell me anyway. It's not as big of a deal I thought it was in the early stages of posting. Sort of a "Get over it" kind of thing now. FWIW


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## Dalecamino (Jun 13, 2014)

skiprat said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > With the possible exception of *the* England, Wales, Scotland, Australia, South Africa, New Zealand and Canada......Besides that we speak American English.......
> ...


 Steven !  Is that ME LORD or MY LORD? I never picked that up. Or, I suppose it could be either.:biggrin:


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## skiprat (Jun 13, 2014)

Chuck, it's Muh Lord, :biggrin:


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## Dalecamino (Jun 13, 2014)

skiprat said:


> Chuck, it's Muh Lord, :biggrin:


 Of course!! That's EXACTLY as I have always heard it :biggrin:


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## Smitty37 (Jun 13, 2014)

skiprat said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > With the possible exception of *the* England, Wales, Scotland, Australia, South Africa, New Zealand and Canada......Besides that we speak American English.......
> ...


MY point is anyone (not from those places) who has ever heard anyone speak who is will find some differences - is it cockney where a simple word "wife" gets stretched to "me trouble and strife"?:biggrin:

And that's just London.


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## robutacion (Jun 13, 2014)

plantman said:


> *Most of you out there who have been on this site for a while, know me by my long and detailed threads or replys. Maybe to long sometimes !! But if someone is going to make an effort to ask a question, or show us the work they did, they deserve more than a one or two word answer* !! I try to not only answer their question, explain why I answered in that manner, and maybe also add a little backround information that might help someone in the future. If I c/c someone's work I try not to say anything that would make them feel bad or incompetent in any way, shape, or form. I tell them what I like and may suggest ways to improve some aspect of their pen or presentation. I once had a thread with 5 or 6 pens shown in it. One person's c/c was that he liked all but one. I replied to him, Thank you for an honest c/c, but just for my personal satisfaction, what didn't you like about that one pen so I can improve on it next time?? No reply !! I agree with everybody, if you can't handle bad or constructive c/c, don't ask for it !!    Jim  S



What in the heck...! I didn't know I had a twin...!:wink::biggrin:

Cheers
George


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## plantman (Jun 14, 2014)

robutacion said:


> plantman said:
> 
> 
> > *Most of you out there who have been on this site for a while, know me by my long and detailed threads or replys. Maybe to long sometimes !! But if someone is going to make an effort to ask a question, or show us the work they did, they deserve more than a one or two word answer* !! I try to not only answer their question, explain why I answered in that manner, and maybe also add a little backround information that might help someone in the future. If I c/c someone's work I try not to say anything that would make them feel bad or incompetent in any way, shape, or form. I tell them what I like and may suggest ways to improve some aspect of their pen or presentation. I once had a thread with 5 or 6 pens shown in it. One person's c/c was that he liked all but one. I replied to him, Thank you for an honest c/c, but just for my personal satisfaction, what didn't you like about that one pen so I can improve on it next time?? No reply !! I agree with everybody, if you can't handle bad or constructive c/c, don't ask for it !!    Jim  S
> ...



George; We sail in the same type of boat, only your's sails upside down being where your located !!! I must say however, that you do keep a tight ship with your replys.  Up Over    Jim  S


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## GaryMGg (Jun 14, 2014)

Deleted double-post


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## GaryMGg (Jun 14, 2014)

I joined this site a long time ago.
Before I joined, the Critiques forum was already closed but Jeff was kind enough to have the old areas available in Read-only mode.
A couple of late nights during the rainy season, I read every old post there was.
I learned a lot from those discussions which is useful to penmaking.
One other thing I learned is too many people got their shorts in a bunch.
As the forum grew, something else occurred: we became PC.
people who were close to one another would poke fun at each other and new folks who didn't know what was up would rush to one or the other's defense.
Out of that evolved, IMHO, a rather strong P.C. public persona.
Unfortunately, that persona does stifle the ability to honestly discuss things such as someone else's workmanship--or the lack thereof.

I would love to see a Critique subforum but it would have to be an opt-in only area visible only to those who opt-in and those who demonstrate, over time,
they can't take it OR can't give criticism without being outright nasty should be locked out.
It might have a chance that way.
Having said that, there's a difference between:
"Your pen is underturned at the nib" and "there are scratches in your finish"
vs.
"I think the different woods on the two barrels conflict too much to be attractive."
vs.
"That's ugly."

The first two offer something--an awful lot more valuable than NP, GJ--the last only says something about the person who posted it.

Just my $.02.


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## sbwertz (Jun 16, 2014)

Smitty37 said:


> skiprat said:
> 
> 
> > Smitty37 said:
> ...



Leroy, one of the funniest ten minutes of my life was in a taxi in Washington DC that I was sharing with two other soldiers from the train station back to Ft Myer.  One was a guy from New Jersey, the other was from Georgia.  They literally didn't speak the same language and neither could understand the other.  The cabbie and I were cracking up.  (That was back when cabbies actually spoke English).


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## Smitty37 (Jun 16, 2014)

sbwertz said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > skiprat said:
> ...


Wow, that was a long time ago.....When I was in the service it was a toss up (I was from PA) whether it was harder to understand the guys from MA and ME or the ones from MS and AL.  They always seemed to be speaking some foreigh language.


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## workinforwood (Jun 17, 2014)

Yesterday i was in the hospital, had a hernia repaired. While waiting the nurse was reading me off a list of stuff, standard procedure, she says being on meds, no drinking no driving no signing documents especially financial documents, no making decisions or judgments under an impared state.  i turned to my wife...that outfit looks great on you, you been working out? 
    Almost had to get scheduled for a broken arm too!


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## BSea (Jun 17, 2014)

workinforwood said:


> Yesterday i was in the hospital, had a hernia repaired. While waiting the nurse was reading me off a list of stuff, standard procedure, she says being on meds, no drinking no driving no signing documents especially financial documents, no making decisions or judgments under an impared state.  i turned to my wife...that outfit looks great on you, you been working out?
> Almost had to get scheduled for a broken arm too!


Now *THAT *is funny!! :laugh:


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## nativewooder (Jun 17, 2014)

Jeff, do you realize how many standup comedians are out of work?!!!  I was rolling around laughing so hard I cracked my head on the tile!:RockOn:


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## nativewooder (Jun 17, 2014)

And as far as C & C, how do you do that to a picture?


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## tjseagrove (Jun 17, 2014)

I like Gary's idea of a separate place for critiques.


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## skiprat (Jun 17, 2014)

Ok, jokes aside, I just realised from this and your other post that you really must be incapacitated
Get well soon Jeff.:doctor:





workinforwood said:


> Yesterday i was in the hospital, had a hernia repaired. While waiting the nurse was reading me off a list of stuff, standard procedure, she says being on meds, no drinking no driving no signing documents especially financial documents, no making decisions or judgments under an impared state.  i turned to my wife...that outfit looks great on you, you been working out?
> Almost had to get scheduled for a broken arm too!


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## SteveJ (Jun 17, 2014)

Interesting thing about C&C.  I've posted a number of my pens and asked for C&C on many of them.  I've never received any criticism - which is sort of strange since I KNOW that I probably deserve some and that it would certainly make me a better turner.  Now, I know I am not the most popular person on this forum, but I don't think I have offended anyone either, so it seems at times like it is a waste of time to even ask for C&C.

The most constructive comment I have gotten was after a PITH, where I had to ask my partner to give me comments.  Unfortunately, I had already sent them the pen and so couldn't actually look at the problem they identified.

When I have had a comment to make about someone's post, I have done it through a PM.  Each of us want some input from other turners, but hardly any of us WANT to have our mistakes/weaknesses pointed out publicly.  

Also, some (like myself) don't really want to be public in criticizing another.

Just my thoughts.

Steve


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## BSea (Jun 18, 2014)

SMJ1957 said:


> Interesting thing about C&C.  I've posted a number of my pens and asked for C&C on many of them.  I've never received any criticism - which is sort of strange since I KNOW that I probably deserve some and that it would certainly make me a better turner.  Now, I know I am not the most popular person on this forum, but I don't think I have offended anyone either, so it seems at times like it is a waste of time to even ask for C&C.


I agree with this.  I think I've received only 1 or 2 criticisms on pens.  One was a real eye opener for me.  When I 1st started making pens, the only real lights I had were fluorescent lights on the ceiling of my garage. KenV pointed out to me that it looked like scratches on my pen in one of the pictures I posted.  I didn't notice them in the picture, but when I took the pen out into the daylight, they were there.  Since then I've taken more care in sanding and polishing, and installed 2 magnetic lights on my lathe to help me see the details better. My eyes ain't what they used to be. 

Thank you KenV for making me pay more attention to the details




SMJ1957 said:


> When I have had a comment to make about someone's post, I have done it through a PM.  Each of us want some input from other turners, but hardly any of us WANT to have our mistakes/weaknesses pointed out publicly.
> 
> Also, some (like myself) don't really want to be public in criticizing another.
> 
> ...


 I don't think anyone wants to be publicly criticized.  But if we can put our egos aside, and really listen, we can learn something.  And if it's done publicly, others can learn from the experience. 

It reminds me of when I played football in high school. We always dreaded Mondays when the coach would show films of our last game. He would see a mistake, and play it over & over.  It wasn't fun to watch when you were to the featured player.  But we all tried to not let it happen again, and we learned from our mistakes.

As long as the critique is polite & friendly (Not the way my coach critiqued BTW), I think doing it in public is ok.  And as others have said, if it's a real problem (over/under turned, scratches, etc) speak up, but if it's just a matter of opinion (blank color, components, contour) then keep quiet.

Oh, and Steve, if you want to critique any of my pens in a PM that's ok with me.:biggrin:


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## Carl Fisher (Jun 18, 2014)

I think a C&C section or at least explicitly asking for C&C is a good thing. But let me play devil's advocate here for a second.

At what point do critiques become less fact and more opinion?  

When combining colors do we pull out the color wheel and say I was going for complimentary, triad or split complimentary?  Rather a comments comes out as "I don't think the colors work well together" which is a pure subjective comment without really being able to understand or explain why they feel that way.  

Same goes for proportion.  Do we start looking at the golden ratio and pulling out the Fibonacci? What if the creator was going for more abstract than structured?

So other than overall fit as seen in the pictures, quality of finish as seen in the pictures, or other obvious issues, what does that leave that is not subjective feedback?


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## sbell111 (Jun 18, 2014)

Carl Fisher said:


> I think a C&C section or at least explicitly asking for C&C is a good thing. But let me play devil's advocate here for a second.
> 
> At what point do critiques become less fact and more opinion?
> 
> ...



Isn't all of our feedback just opinion?

A while back, someone posted a cigar pen to a facebook group that I'm on.  To my eye, it appeared that when the pen was assembled, the upper tube was flipped so it was significantly underturned at the top and overturned where it met the center coupler.  I mentioned the issue and got jumped on by the guy who made it.  In my mind, there were clear objective problems with the pen.  In his mind, the pen was prefect and my opinion was wrong.

At the end of the day, the only critique that we can really give anyone is our personal opinions.  Of course, this goes beyond the 'show off your pen' area.  It is true of about every discussion about this hobby.


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## Dan Masshardt (Jun 18, 2014)

sbell111 said:


> Isn't all of our feedback just opinion?  A while back, someone posted a cigar pen to a facebook group that I'm on.  To my eye, it appeared that when the pen was assembled, the upper tube was flipped so it was significantly underturned at the top and overturned where it met the center coupler.  I mentioned the issue and got jumped on by the guy who made it.  In my mind, there were clear objective problems with the pen.  In his mind, the pen was prefect and my opinion was wrong.  At the end of the day, the only critique that we can really give anyone is our personal opinions.  Of course, this goes beyond the 'show off your pen' area.  It is true of about every discussion about this hobby.



No, I think that's objective not subjective.  

Now, sometimes pictures can be deceiving I know.   

But I also know this - I have a few early pens where the ends were not even where they met the hardware.   Or the blank material overhangs the hardware (without being rounded down to it even).  

These are objective flaws not subjective and you'll never convince me otherwise. ;-)

But yes, much of our critique is about subjective stuff like proportions, colors etc.    

Although when I see a big wasp pen, what is subjective certainly feels objective.  :-/


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## triw51 (Jun 18, 2014)

I agree with Carl.  I have asked for critiques on some of my work and been dissapointed when I get 800 (give or take) views but only 1 or 2 comments.  I value the crritiques I have received especially when I was starting.  I remember a critique I received on a cigar pen.  The critique pointed out a few flaws and a suggestion on how to do better.  I tried his suggestion (it had to do with appling my finish) and it helped me do better.  So please keep up the critiques


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## Carl Fisher (Jun 18, 2014)

sbell111 said:


> Isn't all of our feedback just opinion?



Well, that's your opinion anyway :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:


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## sbell111 (Jun 18, 2014)

I believe that critiques are important, regardless of whether they are objective or subjective.  The important thing is that we remain friendly.  There are far too many jerks on the internet.


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## BSea (Jun 18, 2014)

sbell111 said:


> Isn't all of our feedback just opinion?
> 
> A while back, someone posted a cigar pen to a facebook group that I'm on.  To my eye, it appeared that when the pen was assembled, the upper tube was flipped so it was significantly underturned at the top and overturned where it met the center coupler.  I mentioned the issue and got jumped on by the guy who made it.  In my mind, there were clear objective problems with the pen.  In his mind, the pen was prefect and my opinion was wrong.
> 
> At the end of the day, the only critique that we can really give anyone is our personal opinions.  Of course, this goes beyond the 'show off your pen' area.  It is true of about every discussion about this hobby.


Maybe we should make it the responsibility of the poster.  He/she should say something like:

CC my Fit Finish, Photography

or

CC my blank color with kit, contour

They could combine as many or as few items as they choose

Then we can see specifically what they are looking to improve.


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## Carl Fisher (Jun 18, 2014)

I think the problem is when you get people who have a vastly different opinion than the original creator and feathers get ruffled and heated discussions ensue. Sometimes we have to put on our adult hats for a few moments and agree that not everyone will have the same opinions and that's fine.  

It's all about delivery and many of us don't have that finesse to tell someone that they don't like something about their work in a way that makes them feel warm and fuzzy inside.


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## sbell111 (Jun 18, 2014)

BSea said:


> sbell111 said:
> 
> 
> > Isn't all of our feedback just opinion?
> ...


I think that the comments in this thread show that sometimes we don't recognize the areas in which we need to improve.  It takes that 'outsider eye' to see what we don't.


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## GaryMGg (Jun 18, 2014)

sbell111 said:


> I believe that critiques are important, regardless of whether they are objective or subjective.  The important thing is that we remain friendly....



I agree with the above. However, I don't agree that ALL critiques are subjective as posited earlier.
A visible scratch is a scratch. How bad it is may be subjective but the fact that a finish has scratches is factual.

I believe it's beneficial to separate the subjective (opinion) from a factual comment AND not offer highly subjective critiques unless the poster asks.
I'm also a big fan of the Like button as it allows me to offer kudos without repeating what's been said--but that's just me.


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## plano_harry (Jun 18, 2014)

Wow Carl, lot's of opinions on this!  Not seeing a definitive answer, but I have enjoyed reading, lots of good comments and none that I felt I needed to counter.

MarkD probably best described my thoughts.  Pictures are everything and I need a magnifying glass to evaluate the pen in my hand in most cases.

Then there is the "in the middle syndrome".  I don't think I can see the flaws in the advanced turners' work, if there are any, unless I had extreme magnification.  So I don't even look, I just admire the beauty of the pen without taking time to write an essay on its virtues. There are very few intermediate and advanced level pens I don't like.

For beginners, they may be struggling with photography, fit or finish.  I want to offer suggestions but not discourage - since it may have taken a couple of days to get up the courage to post their first pen.

The rest falls to personal preference ranking:  


Do I (like) the pen?
Would I make one like it?
Do I wish I COULD make one like it?
I don't even know HOW you made that!
This discussion is very similar to how we vote on contest pens.  It's an opinion, fit & finish are permission to play and often can't be fully evaluated based on the photo quality.  Like Dan, I don't like wasp pens and table legs are right out - but others might spend hours turning beads and coves on their perfect pen.


I appreciate constructive criticism.  In SOYP, I am looking for something unusual or special.  A commercial blank on a kit is not going to draw a comment unless it is a material I have not seen before or didn't appreciate until it was combined with that kit.


I sort of like the idea of "certified critiquers" that I could submit my best work for evaluation.  I thought a "split complimentary" was "f_or a fat guy, you don't sweat much_":bulgy-eyes:


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## GaryMGg (Jun 18, 2014)

plano_harry said:


> I thought a "split complimentary" was "f_or a fat guy, you don't sweat much_":bulgy-eyes:



Ha!


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## Smitty37 (Jun 18, 2014)

GaryMGg said:


> plano_harry said:
> 
> 
> > I thought a "split complimentary" was "f_or a fat guy, you don't sweat much_":bulgy-eyes:
> ...


Junior Samples exchange with Lulu Roman on Hee Haw many years ago.
Lulu "Junion say something nice about me."
Junior "For a big fat woman Lulu, you don't sweat much."


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## skiprat (Jun 18, 2014)

Most people aren't blunt like me, but I can assure you that if you get hundreds of views, just a handful of 'likes' and maybe only a few comments, then your work ( and the photo btw) has indeed been critiqued.:wink:
To get honest comments, you need to do much more....
This is a community, take part and contribute ( without an agenda :wink: ) to other topics. There are many members here that I haven't ever met or ever likely to meet, but I feel I'm pretty good buddies with and we can take the pee out of each other without getting upset. 
If you go to a party and are just a wallflower, then you can only expect to be ignored.  Even the prettiest girl and most handsome bloke need to interact if they want some attention. :biggrin:
I'm one of the lucky ones......I'm extremely handsome and a load mouth to boot...:biggrin::laugh:


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## Smitty37 (Jun 18, 2014)

skiprat said:


> Most people aren't blunt like me, but I can assure you that if you get hundreds of views, just a handful of 'likes' and maybe only a few comments, then your work ( and the photo btw) has indeed been critiqued.:wink:
> To get honest comments, you need to do much more....
> This is a community, take part and contribute ( without an agenda :wink: ) to other topics. There are many members here that I haven't ever met or ever likely to meet, but I feel I'm pretty good buddies with and we can take the pee out of each other without getting upset.
> If you go to a party and are just a wallflower, then you can only expect to be ignored.  Even the prettiest girl and most handsome bloke need to interact if they want some attention. :biggrin:
> *I'm one of the lucky ones......I'm extremely handsome and a load mouth to boot*...:biggrin::laugh:


Yep, why I've heard you're so good looking you almost make me wish I was a woman.:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:


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## Curly (Jun 18, 2014)

skiprat said:


> load mouth



A small critique if I may.  You're a "loud mouth". What you say is a load but your colourful selection is superb.  :biggrin:


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## SteveJ (Jun 18, 2014)

I've seen your picture Leroy, and you wouldn't make a very attractive woman...


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## Smitty37 (Jun 18, 2014)

SMJ1957 said:


> I've seen your picture Leroy, and you wouldn't make a very attractive woman...


That's why I said "....almost....


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## Rounder (Jun 18, 2014)

SMJ1957 said:


> I've seen your picture Leroy, and you wouldn't make a very attractive woman...



Now that's an honest critique right there!


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## Smitty37 (Jun 18, 2014)

Rounder said:


> SMJ1957 said:
> 
> 
> > I've seen your picture Leroy, and you wouldn't make a very attractive woman...
> ...


And, I hope you noticed the grace with which it was received.:biggrin:


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## Phunky_2003 (Jun 21, 2014)

I am one who has posted and asked for critiques and comments non improvement on my pens and blanks.  I still got the good fit and finish that posted on the majority of the posts.  I started then to ask people individually thru messaging.   I also started to take pens to our local penturning meetings and asked for critique.  

Its much easier to get a critique when they can see and feel the pen.

Alot  of my  improvements in the beginning came thru messaging.  

I even arranged a pen swap privately once or twice for critiques.  I could see and feel hands on on how they did things and they could see mine.


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## Ligget (Jun 21, 2014)

skiprat said:


> I'm one of the lucky ones......I'm extremely handsome and a load mouth to boot...:biggrin::laugh:



NURSE, Steven is out of bed again! :tongue::laugh:


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## skiprat (Jun 21, 2014)

Gee....thanks Mark!!!!:redface:

Bloody haggis humper!!!:rotfl:


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## JasonC (Jun 22, 2014)

Carl Fisher said:


> So this happened recently on another forum but I do see hints of it here from time to time.
> 
> *<Caution, stepping up on a soap box for a moment>*
> 
> ...



Being a fairly new guy to the forum and pen turning I'll say I've spent A LOT of time searching and reading the forums. Not for one particular person's method/input, but for a wide-ranging group of posts about a specific subject. I know there are some highly skilled and well-known/established guys on the forum, but I'm sure that each of them will say that no one person here is the single end-all source for info on what we're doing. If anyone ever shuts out the ability to listen to new ideas, techniques, or constructive criticism, that tells me they're no longer willing to learn. And honestly, I don't think anyone here has that mentality.

That being said, when I post in the "Show Your Pens" forum I don't ask for C&C because I honestly expect an honest response and I WANT people to point out something I'm doing wrong or could have done better. 

I looked forward to the PITH because I wanted to see how my work (as someone that started turning in April) compared to other members of the forum. I was also curious to see how my recipient liked the pen I sent.

I'll also be including a pen in the Pass it Forward box for the next recipient each time I participate for the same reason.

"Negative feedback" on a piece of work is "constructive criticism". You may not like hearing it at first, but like ssajn said in post #16, you'll appreciate it when you work on every pen after that. And then another guy will say "Hey, see this right here? Here's what you need to do to make it better."


It's kind of like the old "I see you're drowning. Would you like me to jump in and help you or do you want me to stand here on the shore and tell you how far away you are?"


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