# Open letter to Jeff...anything but casual



## YoYoSpin (Dec 6, 2005)

I think it's time for the â€œCasual Conversation" forum to go away, far away, never to be heard from again. There is nothing what so ever casual going on in this forum. It is a place of intolerance, disrespect, chest pounding, pot stirring...and little more. Jeff, please...for your own peace of mind and on behalf of all the well-meaning people who frequent this site, shoot and bury this mad dog before the infection spreads further.


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## ctEaglesc (Dec 6, 2005)

I agree whole heartedly.
A while back I may have disagreed but since there are a FEW who don't have a clue what off topic means unless they approve of the topic then without a Casual Conversation forum there would not be any need for Jeff to censor or lock what might be considered to those with small minds or a different sense of humor offesnsive.
Great idea Ed.
Then again I guess to don't HAVE to read the posts, do you?
Just wondering


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## wpenm (Dec 6, 2005)

The idea of a casual conversation forum is a very good one and if used properly it can be informative as well as entertaining. I enjoy most of it's topics. If a topic is of no interest to me, I don't read it. This is not a hard thing to do, just common sense. The hard thing to do is sort out the replies to topics. Some are ment to be argumentative and written be a few who are starved for attention. I guess nothing is perfect and we must all deal with what bothers us in our own ways.


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## Dario (Dec 6, 2005)

I love turning, I love wood and I love pens...but...

I love people a lot more than all combined...so I vote to let the casual conversation alone.  Let us know who the person who turned that wonderful pen is.  Let him/her talk...let me know him/her better. []


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## airrat (Dec 6, 2005)

I too enjoy the topics in the casual conversation section.  I don't understand why if someone does not like one they go complain.  Let everyone else make the choice if they choose to read the topic or just pass it.


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## Ron in Drums PA (Dec 6, 2005)

I too think casual conversation forum is a good thing.

Besides, if you do remove this forum, the problem won't go away. At least it is contained in one area.


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## ilikewood (Dec 6, 2005)

Maybe it should be renamed "Casual Conversation about Pens"


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## GregD (Dec 6, 2005)

Jeff,
Why allow a few to dictate what this site is all about. If they don't like Casual Conversation, they don't have to participate. I enjoy getting to know some of the people who post here.


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## Mikey (Dec 6, 2005)

> _Originally posted by wpenm_
> <br />The idea of a casual conversation forum is a very good one and if used properly it can be informative as well as entertaining. I enjoy most of it's topics. If a topic is of no interest to me, I don't read it. This is not a hard thing to do, just common sense. The hard thing to do is sort out the replies to topics. Some are ment to be argumentative and written be a few who are starved for attention. I guess nothing is perfect and we must all deal with what bothers us in our own ways.



About the best thing I have read on this site. Nobody forces anyone to read the forum, and they can avoid that area all together. There have been half a dozen posts in the last few days I want nothing to do with. I don't even bother reading them or the replies.


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## Rifleman1776 (Dec 6, 2005)

I vote (yes, I know we are not voting) to keep CC. Forum like this become a community. Part of the electronic and cyber age. The CC allows discourse on a variety of subjects. Without it, I believe that overall participation would shrink to a mere trickle of current postings.


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## johnson (Dec 6, 2005)

Tag it and bag it.


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## ctEaglesc (Dec 6, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Mikey_
> <br />
> 
> 
> ...



If you didn't read them how do you know they weren't worth reading?


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## pete00 (Dec 6, 2005)

I cast my one vote for.......ta daa........keep it.

the time to delete this will be when no one one uses it.
pete


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## ctEaglesc (Dec 6, 2005)

> _Originally posted by pete00_
> <br />I cast my one vote for.......ta daa........keep it.
> 
> the time to delete this will be when no one one uses it.pete


Evidently you weren't around for the critiques forum.
Even in that forum when the manner in which the posts were made were not to the likng of the forum admin the forum got cancelled.It was on the site all of 3 months.Never was given a chance


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## Jim Boyd (Dec 6, 2005)

I think ya'll are pretty tame[] Check out this part of The Oak


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## Ron in Drums PA (Dec 6, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Jim Boyd_
> <br />I think ya'll are pretty tame[] Check out this part of The Oak



I haven't been to that forum for over 5 years. I see there are still the same names there.


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## Ron Mc (Dec 6, 2005)

JIM....LOL! Unbelievable that people would spend their time like that. I'm sorry I can't stop laughing!


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## Dario (Dec 6, 2005)

Heard a lot about Woodnet Basement...never visited it.  

I am a wimp []


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## BogBean (Dec 6, 2005)

> _Originally posted by YoYoSpin_
> <br />I think it's time for the â€œCasual Conversation" forum to go away, far away, never to be heard from again. There is nothing what so ever casual going on in this forum. It is a place of intolerance, disrespect, chest pounding, pot stirring...and little more. Jeff, please...for your own peace of mind and on behalf of all the well-meaning people who frequent this site, shoot and bury this mad dog before the infection spreads further.



Sir, With all due respect. Why do you want to force your views on me? I happen to like "Casual Conversation". If you don't like this part of IAP just don't click on the heading "Casual Conversation". I enjoy some of the posts in here but did not enjoy yours....Cheers


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## gerryr (Dec 6, 2005)

Some of what is apparently going on is exactly like the people who complain about films as being immoral, depraved or whatever they choose to call what doesn't fit their narrow view.  If you don't like it, don't read it.  Nobody is forcing anyone to read any post on this forum.  I would not support CC going away, not because it's my favorite part of the site, but because it smacks of censorship.  If people are not using foul language or calling others names, what is the big deal?  And if someone has a complaint with a particular post, let them email the poster directly.  In short, stop whining.


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## Easysport (Dec 6, 2005)

I like it.  Learn a lot about the people here by reading some of the posts. If the subject affends me(whick is pretty hard to do) I don't read it.[][]


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## micah (Dec 6, 2005)

Do away with the casual conversation room?
I know that I am new here, but I will go ahead and give my opinion if it's ok.
We are all adults. PERIOD. Some need to grow up. Some need to be more tolerable to others.
Instead of doing away with, why not expand. Why not have a Off-Topic political and/or religious debate room. Shoot, I probably never would visit it myself, but why not a Flame room. Somewhere that when people visit they know that they may get offended, so don't go if you don't want to get offended. In other words somewhere people can go to blow off steam about things here or elsewhere that they are disturbed about. I've seen it done elsewhere and it has actually worked well. Just make it where only registered members can go into and they have to agree to something where they give up their right to get offended. Of course there would have to be SOME rules, but they would be more leaniant. Just a thought.
I think that doing away with a casual room would do a whole lot more bad than good. You would just have it going into places that it REALLY don't need to be.

Micah


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## mikes pens (Dec 6, 2005)

I need the casual conversation.  My wife doesn't allow me to talk to anyone so this way I can sneak in some conversation without her knowing.

Mike


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## tipusnr (Dec 6, 2005)

I'm not sure what to think about this.  All this talk about friendly open conversations and yet the largest posts on the site involve one form of controversy or another.  Seems to say something to me!!


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## Thumbs (Dec 7, 2005)

I have to agree with you Bill.  I'm all for FREE SPEECH but I have often found myself and my friends involved in some of those controversies here to the point of becoming "un-friends!"  And that's a sad and disappointing result of those same freedoms but I think it may be a result of personal issues rather than the concept of free speech.  

Most of us have seen the results of unconstrained power without responsibility; the same can be said for unconstrained speech without responsibility. There are always some results of freedom that require some restraint due to the effect of our own individual freedom's influence on those around us.  You remember the old saw about not being allowed to yell "Fire!" in a theater if there is no fire and being required to sound some form of alarm if there is?

We get feedback here to help us restrain ourselves, such as the loss of friendships, withdrawal of aid and information, even membership in the group.  Some of these things have happened to me and others because of our free and seemingly unconstrained use of our freedom of speech.  These are real constraints and do temper our use of this freedom to some extent.  Freedom of speech and it's use is (or can be for some of us) as much of a learning process about "rights and responsibilities" as it is a simple exercise of opening your mouth and shouting out whatever you want.

All in all, I want that Freedom of Speech along with all the hard knocks, bumps, and bruises of learning to use that right and responsibility.

Please forgive me if I fall off the wagon now and again, too!  I'm still learning........[][}][]


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## bdar (Dec 7, 2005)

Guys and Gals of the IAP,

There will always be some form of conflict on a forum like we are seeing at the moment. I know I am not a big poster of topics but the humor, the joy, insite I get from the CC topics lets me know what everybody is about. Most of all the respect and awe I have for Serge, RTJW, Old Griz, Anthony, Dario, Eagle and the list can go on, for the quality of their craftsmanship or artistry, makes me realize the need for this CC. As said before we are all adults and we can get through this. If the CC is removed it will not stop the conflict it will migrate into another area. Those who want to post or not want to post, that is their choice. Remember what this forum is about, fellowship of like minded people who share a common interest in the crafting of personal writting instruments. As I said the names mentioned before, thank you for making me strive harder to become a better pen craftsman. That's my two bobs worth.

Darren


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## Mikey (Dec 7, 2005)

Eagle, I read the topic, and if it looks like something I am interested in, i may read. If it is about christmas or whatever that I don't care to spend time on, i pass it by. A vary simple process actually.[]


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## wayneis (Dec 7, 2005)

I have mixed feeling about the CC forum.  One thing is clear to me though,is that how we handle ourselves is different many times between meeting and talking to someone in person and sitting at our desk behind a monitor typing out what we want to say.  I've belonged to many internet forums over the years and I see a pattern in all of them.  I believe that if we ended up meeting face to face we would treat each other differently in some cases.  I believe that some personalities may be a little toned down if we were meeting in person.  

Some have said that if Jeff did away with the CC forum then the bickering would then just reach out to the other topics in our forum, that to some extent is already happening.  Its really to bad because it seems as though that at least most of us are all here for the same reason, to learn and share in the art of pen turning, its a nice bonus that we get to meet and make friends while we are doing this.  But as we have seen lately, this can go very easily the wrong way.  Feeling get hurt, people get mad and all through this what we all came here for in the first place is getting pushed aside.

It seems to me that most of the larger problems and blow ups that we've had here at the IAP have started right here at the CC. I don't know if the thing to do is get rid of the CC but if we continue to let things fester like we have the last few days then it won't be long and we won't have much of a pen turning forum left.  

Wayne


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## lkorn (Dec 7, 2005)

> _Originally posted by bdar_
> As said before we are all adults



Darren, this is PART of the problem.  Some members here, have their children reading this site as well as themselves.  That has created a lot of the antagonism, When so-called "adult" conversation falls in view of children.  We've had members chastised/suspended/banned (pick one) because children were offended by or exposed to adult humor and/or conversation.  
Personnaly, anything my children were shown, was ALWAYS (to the best of my ability) pre-screened by me.  I would show her selected items in my social circles, but she never had free access to my entire life.
Jeff, perhaps if this were declared a websites for adult penturners, instead of a "family-friendly" website, some of the caustic comments might disappear.


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## pastorbill1952 (Dec 7, 2005)

I think we should keep it, I have learned much from those who do not agree with my views.  I do not like the personal attacks/ flaming and have offered a suggestion in the past on how to control it,for which I was attacked. Jeff has a statement of how it will be handled and I accept it.  The difficulty is in the enforcement, especially with equality for all members.

I have been in the middle of some of these controversial threads but have tried to let things go and move on.  If everyone agreed on everything, this would be a very boring world.  However, I will not back down on my beliefs nor do I expect anyone else to back down on their beliefs.  It is a matter of mutual respect.  A lot of this stuff would be stopped if folks would use the PM rather than screaming at someone in the thread. (Tone of message speaks volumes)  It may be that the reader has misinterpreted the meaning/ motive of the message or it may be that the author didn't read his topic before he submitted it.  Typos and grammatical errors can change the meaning of a statement very easily but can also easily be edited.

An idea to consider is making sure the title of the topic was specific rather than ambigious then those who do not wish to read it won't be surprised and angered over being misled.  IE, My b-day is coming could have been Jesus' view of His b-day. And I am not picking on the one who submitted this thread it just was one of several that were locked in recent days.  I disagree with the assessment that it was proselytizing, but respect Jeff enough to abide with his decision.  That respect increased when he locked several other threads describing the beliefs of another faith.

As far as the age of viewers here is the statement from Terms of Service Age Restriction: In compliance with the Childrenâ€™s Online Privacy Protection Act (15 U.S.C. Section 6501) usage of penturners.org is restricted to persons over the age of 13. Everyone who registers has agreed to this.


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## Travlr7 (Dec 7, 2005)

I haven't read ALL posts to this thread. I decided not to. My Vote "KEEPIT."

BTW - you don't have to see what is left behind by hogs to know you don't want to smell it. After a while, you see who is posting, read several words and see the same thing again and again and again and go on about what you are doing. BYE to THIS thread. I blocked it meaniing I won't be reading it anymore!

Bruce


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## RussFairfield (Dec 8, 2005)

My vote is to keep it open. I don't read this section very often, but I remember that it was started as a way to get all of these conversations off the topic discussions. If  everyone wants to set fire to the place, that is another problem.


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## btboone (Dec 8, 2005)

Or you could just start a new section called Religion, Politics, Bigoted Opinions, and Namecalling. []


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## bdar (Dec 8, 2005)

Larry, 
You are right in regard that children can read these post, as I don't have kids I guess I am lucky that they don't see some of the things that are posted. It saddens me to think that it's our kid's and other kids that want to learn what we do and they see the rubbish that does get posted from time to time. They are our future, I know that every chance I get I like to introduce kids into wood turning and make them realize that it is not for; and no offence is intended here; old people. That is what a lot of kids think of our past time. With what is happening around the world, and I have friends in Iraq  at the moment, and I know a lot of my IAP members know or have someone serving there, can we forget the pettiness that has risen to the surface and look at things that really matter. A challenge, I said we are all adults, can we show the kids that want to learn our craft that we can act that way, first for a week then a month maybe then we could get through to a year. There is another forum that I go to regularly, and they have a section for pen turning section, but because of a few idiots that post there and don't know one end of a pen from the other a lot of good pen makers have stopped posting. When I found the IAP and others that share the same passion, all my Christmases had come at once. Can we risk losing something as good as the IAP. So who is up for the challenge, just one week to start with. 

A bit more than two bobs worth

Darren


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## opfoto (Dec 8, 2005)

Keep it Open. It is ultimately <u><b>MY CHOICE</b></u> to read or not to read any further!


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## Woodnknots (Dec 8, 2005)

As far as children seeing adult related conversations, etc... I say that it is not the responsibility of the forum to censor what your children read.  I agree wholeheartedly that language and etiquette is sometimes lacking in CC, but that is pretty much inappropriate for this forum as a whole, not just for children.  If you are relying on others to keep your children safe from bad language and adult conversations, then you are shirking your duties as a parent.  There are some times when, if you want your children involved in your ADULT interests and conversations, you just have to take for granted that there are times when they will see or read things that you don't want them to.  At that point, you have to hope that you have done your job, and that they realize that such things are not appropriate for them to do or say, and move on.  Just my two cents, but I know that my dad raised me to know what was right and what was wrong, and I didn't (most times) need him there to screen the things I saw and read, because I knew what to take on board, and what to leave behind.


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## JimGo (Dec 8, 2005)

Dave,
You make a very interesting point.  I agree with you that parental responsibility is paramount, and raising your kids properly from an early age goes a long way toward making it easier to deal with these kinds of issues.  My concerns are, though:
1) There's nothing about pen turning that makes it a truly adult interest.  I can see kids 10-plus years old being interested in pen turning, and being very good at it.  Much like sports and music, it is the kind of activity at which I would expect a kid to be able to excel, because when you're able to focus on it and practice, you get better at it.  If it's not a purley-adult interest, unless we want to make the forums adults-only (which we basically are anyway at this point, although our terms of use say 13+), I don't think it proper to focus on the art/craft/whatever you want to call it, and our conversations (even those tangential to the topic) as being inherently adult-only.
2) Of course, this doesn't mean that I'm for closing CC, or even censoring it to any significant degree.  Yes, sometimes potentially offensive or inappropriate things are posted.  In most cases, I do what most people do and simply close that topic, but in some cases I can understand why some people might be offended.  An accurate subject line that warns potentially sensitive readers about the content goes a long way toward mitigating the need for censorship.
3) While the level of discussion gets rather heated some times, one of the great things here is that we don't usually split into two camps and fight simply to fight.  Instead, we tend to talk things through, with the majority of the people trying to find a common ground between any divisiveness.  Sometimes, both sides merely have to agree to disagree.  I actually think that the lesson in that is a good one for kids to learn.  I don't know that I want my kids exposed to EVERYTHING that gets said, but the ultimate outcome is a good one, and can help supplement the lessons parents teach their children.

So, my vote is to keep CC open too.


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## Ron in Drums PA (Dec 8, 2005)

Jeff

What's your take on this?


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## JimGo (Dec 8, 2005)

Ron,
Not to be a smart-alleck, but I think it's self-evident; CC is still open for business.


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## Ron in Drums PA (Dec 8, 2005)

I don't think you are a smart aleck, and I'm not trying to be one either, but do you know for sure what he has planned? For all we know he may still be mulling this over. But if has made a decision this thread is mote.


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## btboone (Dec 8, 2005)

I have seen some forums with a special place for politics and religion.  It could be a place for that kind of stuff, where you know going in that things there are all about opinions, and things are likely to get dicey.  This could keep the Casual Conversation thread a little more, well, casual.


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## Dario (Dec 8, 2005)

90% of the time though...the poster doesn't really know that the subject is going to be controversial...flame just happens...depends on how other people see it.

Most posts are good intentioned...it just spawns sometimes.


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## jeff (Dec 8, 2005)

I'm just taking it all in... []

My inclination is to drop the CC forum, but I'm still considering other options. 

You would not believe how much time I spent dealing with this last skirmish. The emails, posts, demands for so-and-so to be banned, phone calls, etc., easily took 10 hours out of my week. 

And over what? People twisting the situation to fit their personal agenda. Go back to the fundamental issue: A few people complained that Micha's post was a little too preachy and evangelical. I happened to agree, so I made a post to that effect. In there I said.

Religion is a very personal thing, and sharing one's beliefs in an international, public forum can be tricky business. None of the members who wrote are against religion or Christmas or free speech, they're just asking that it be a little less intense.

Now, that seemed pretty polite and gentle to me. How then did I become the Politically Correct Wimp (an email comment), who was prohibiting the use of "The C word" (many posts) and squashing free speech (more posts)

Here's why: 1 - It's easy (and fun for some apparently) to argue incessantly just for the sake of arguing. 2 - Some people believe they have some responsibility to trumpet their personal beliefs as long and loud as possible without regard to any one else's perspective. 

Here's the message that came across from our a few of our members; "We're entitled to be in-your-face about Christmas, our religion, Jesus, and anything else we want, and we'll argue that point and spin any opposing comments as long as we want." 

It's a free country, and anyone is entitled to believe whatever they want. However, in a civilized society, we temper our behavior to be consistent with how other people feel about and respond to our beliefs. We can have some very interesting and even heated discussions within those boundaries, but it takes just the tiniest bit of respect for other point's of view, and some basic debate skills. 

Honestly, I enjoy the Casual Conversation forum. It has really allowed us to get to know each other. But unless I get some warm feeling that we can have polite, spirited debate while maintaining a respectful environment, it's going away.


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## alamocdc (Dec 8, 2005)

And these spirited debates don't just happen in this forum. I just finished one (I hope) in the Penturning forum. [] It can happen anytime anyone takes exception to something that was posted anywhere. The trick is to remember not to take it personally... even if it was meant that way. I harbor no ill will or feelings towards any who disagree w/me on anything. 1) Life is too short for such pettyness, 2) I'm too old to let it bother me and 3) It's impossible to go through life w/o disagreements. I disagree w/my best friend as often as we agree, but we don't part ways and pick up ours toys and go home b/c of it. It's just part of the life experience. Life... mine's great! How's yours? []


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## Dario (Dec 8, 2005)

Jeff,

Your decision will be respected (atleast by me).

I really hope you won't get rid of CC though.  I know it is causing a lot of work and problems but it is a small price to pay (easy for me to say) for a great forum.  I dare say this forum won't be the same without CC...and that change (if ever) will NOT be for the better.


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## BogBean (Dec 8, 2005)

Jeff,
I am sorry to hear that you thinking about dropping the casual conversation forum. The same thing is happening to the Christmas tree. Some places of business are changing the name to Holiday tree to keep 15% of the people happy when 85% of the people call it a Christmas tree. I don't understand why they bend to the few. Most members want the casual conversation forum. The world is not perfect and IAP will never be perfect, does not matter how hard you try. You should just try to keep the majority of members happy and the few members that are not happy will just have to learn to live with it or choose to not come into the Casual Conversation Forum...Thank you for doing a good job on this board....


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## Mikey (Dec 8, 2005)

Jim, if a 10 year old is smart and talented enough to create pens and learn to work with power tools, then i would think they would be responsible enough to listen to a parent who tells them they may not look in the casual conversation thread. It's also easy to tell when someone has looked at the posts since they don't appear purple anymore. 

I really don't see it as anything over/underage, but more personal attacks that should be taking place anywhere, even on an adult oriented site. I also got a good laugh out of "Here's the message that came across from our a few of our members; "We're entitled to be in-your-face about Christmas, our religion, Jesus, and anything else we want, and we'll argue that point and spin any opposing comments as long as we want."" Seems that is about the norm on every board I have come across. 

Seems as though if we can avoid religious and political posts that everyone and anyone can get along, regardless of what you believe or want to argue.


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## ilikewood (Dec 8, 2005)

Not so sure about that Mikey....there are some here who would take offence for using black palm wood on a slimline and argue that it should have been purpleheart.  [B)][]


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## woodwish (Dec 8, 2005)

I figure if you don't like what's in this forum just ignore it.  I am too much of an adult to pick a fight with anyone in a semi-public forum like this, but if others want to fight then I ignore it.  Move on to some other thread!  CC is probably my favorite part of this site, I enjoy having conversations about everyday stuff with people in so many different parts of the country and the world.  I "vote" to keep it and not ban anyone from posting, just ignore their comments if they bother you that bad.

Jeff, I have to admire you if you spent more than 10 seconds worrying about this, much less 10 hours.  I listen to my students and their problems for hours but I would have deleted, ignored, and/or hung up on all these folks pestering you. [8D]


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## swm6500 (Dec 8, 2005)

Well said Ray, I have to agree with you. I can ignore them, or I can read them and usually get a chuckle or two out of the way people feel about things. I am a firm believer in letting everyone believe as they want, but do not believe in someone trying to push their beliefs on others.


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## RussFairfield (Dec 8, 2005)

It seems to me there are only 3 choices. One solution is a statement to the effect that there shall be no messages relating to religion, politics, race, or sex, and there shall be no offensive or abusive language, and that all messages containing such content will be deleted. End of problem.

The other choice is to leave it like it is and ignore the complaints.

The 3rd is to close the doors on everybody.

Either way, some will be mad, and some will be glad. You will never please everybody.


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## tinker (Dec 8, 2005)

Closing the door on all will make more mad than glad I bet. 
BTW: Merry Christmas to all and a profitable New Year.


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## wayneis (Dec 8, 2005)

Ya but I'll bet that right about now Jeff is wondering why the heck he ever started this joint to begin with.  I doubt very much if any of this is what he and Scott imagined when they dreamt up the IAP.

Wayne



> _Originally posted by tinker_
> <br />Closing the door on all will make more mad than glad I bet.
> BTW: Merry Christmas to all and a profitable New Year.


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## jeff (Dec 11, 2005)

OK, I think the best approach for now is to prohibit discussions in this forum of religion, politics, and sex. Griz mentioned that's how they keep the peace at his lodge, and suggested we try it here. So, there you go. Forum stays, the unavoidable conflicts go. I'll post some additional rules (actually some clarification and plain English interpretation of the Terms of Service) next week. 

Thanks all for your thoughts and continued support.


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## Rifleman1776 (Dec 11, 2005)

No sex?!!! [:0][:0][:0]


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## Old Griz (Dec 11, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Rifleman_
> <br />No sex?!!! [:0][:0][:0]


At your age Frank, it is probably safer to abstain anyway... [}][][}]


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## Rifleman1776 (Dec 15, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Old Griz_
> <br />
> 
> 
> ...



Just saw this one. Who's worried about 'safe'? [] (p.s., Better stop here. No telling where this might lead. I just hate it when Jeff has kinipshins. [] )


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