# Gluing aluminum to acrylic...



## chugbug

Hi Guys,

Anyone gluing aluminum to acrylic and having the bond hold up? 

I've tried a few different times and got to the point to where I can drill out the parts sucessfully, but then it eventually break shortly after drilling or when I try to tap it.

Looking at the broken sections, it appears that the glue is always on the arylic and breaks away from the aluminum.

I'm using the same procedures I use for acrylic to acrylic, but there must be something I have to do differently to get the bond to hold. Any suggestions would be helpful.

Gluing... I've been using good quality CA (gap filling) glue. Sanding the both parts with heavy sandpaper to get a good bond. Giving it plenty of time for curing (a few days). Is there a different glue I should be using?

Drilling... Like I said, I got that part down, but... using freshly sharpened bits. Drilling small hole to start and work up to final size. Using very slow speed and taking VERY light passes. Bit is staying cool. Applying lubircant before each pass. 

Thickness... Not that it should matter, but I'm using fairly thin peices of aluminum (.045" & .021.

I've read where aluminum won't hold a joint over time because of the way it oxidizes, but I've seen plenty of pens with aluminum segments in them (unless they were using a different metal)?

Is there a way to do it, or must I figure out a way to create a mechanical joint instead of gluing if I want to do this?

Thanks...JEB

JEB's PENs
www.jebspens.com


----------



## Simplex

After using various epoxies and glues the one I have found that will hold up to both mechanical stress and heat is JB Weld.  It's heavy duty stuff but I have yet to have acrylic-aluminum bond come apart.


----------



## Curly

A good quality epoxy (not 5 min stuff from the hardware store) with the metal and plastic cleaned with Acetone or similar to degrease it and don't clamp it hard. You need some epoxy between the materials for it to hold. There are lots of aircraft flying over your head with the parts bonded together with epoxy.


----------



## Ruby pen turning

The CA is heating up when you drill through the metal and letting loose. If you want to continue using CA then you might want t try and dowse in thin CA every once in awhile. Same thing when turning. Make a few cuts and dowse over and over.


----------



## chugbug

Hi Gary,

Thanks for the recomendation!  Do you use the regular stuff (labeld for steel) or a different type (they make a few different types don't they)?

I have some of the steel.  If you think that should work, I'll give it a try before I go out for the others.

Gotta go and come back later... There's a big storm hitting us right now.. I want to shut the pc down before the lights go out and does it for me!

Thanks...JEB


----------



## Simplex

chugbug said:


> Hi Gary,
> 
> Thanks for the recomendation!  Do you use the regular stuff (labeld for steel) or a different type (they make a few different types don't they)?
> 
> I have some of the steel.  If you think that should work, I'll give it a try before I go out for the others.
> 
> Gotta go and come back later... There's a big storm hitting us right now.. I want to shut the pc down before the lights go out and does it for me!
> 
> Thanks...JEB



Hi Jeb -

I use the regular steel stuff.  At some point I'll probably get around to trying the others but, so far, the regular version has been working fine.  Let me know how it works for you.  Take care...those PA storms can brutal (I lived in North Wales, PA for a short time)


----------



## johnnycnc

scuff the aluminum with rough abrasive, on the faces to be glued then clean well with solvent (acetone).
Use epoxy to glue up. butter both parts with epoxy and don't clamp the parts TOO tight, you'll force all the epoxy out.
This means tight enough to hold and not produce a joint line, just not super vise tight...!
Go slow and easy on drilling, let little to no heat build up.
Take it slow when passing through the aluminum segments.
this has worked for me on several pens.
Good luck to you!


----------



## Robert111

I have trouble only when using segments are bonded at angle other than 90 degrees to the centerline, but the pens like the momo clone (orange/black--photo attached) were easy. 

I used the same techniques you describe in your initial post in this thread, including medium CA. I do clamp the blank immediately and wait overnight before drilling and turning.

Tim Wise, who did some fabulous segmented pens, says the same thing Brian (Ruby Pen Turning) says--repeatedly douse with thin CA as you turn the blank.

Brian is doing just amazing segmenting and lots of it, so I would bank on anything he says.


----------



## Gary Beasley

A CA joint has poor shear strength compared to many other good glues and heating will cause differential expansion between the wood and metal, which creates that shear force mentioned. Most epoxies have some flex to them and will resist the pull of the expansion. 
That and the tendency to melt with the heat and CA comes out performing poorly in that application.
The one thing helping CA to keep working on most inserts is the fact it has a brass tube glued through the middle that will stabilise the assembly, hence a good douse with thin CA to repair developing separations while turning.


----------



## johncrane

To hold a square blank together while drilling ,use thin CA glue and wooden ice cream / pop stick's, glued the pop sticks to the out side's of the blank, On a 3/4 inch blank 2 sticks each side then trim off the edges. also before drilling you can turn the blank round between centers then wrap the blank with string and soak it with thin CA then drill it out.


----------



## Sawdust46

When I was making pens of corian, aluminum and wood, they would split when drilling.  I bought a drill dr. and sharpened my drill bits.  no problem after that.


----------



## watch_art

Brian Gray (Edison Pens) told me West Epoxy Systems is the best stuff around.  Very expensive though.


----------



## chugbug

Hi everyone,

GARY... I'm about 100 miles west of where you were, and it turned out to be a pretty brutal storm, but no damage done or power outage (probably because I took the precaution this time!!). 

Thanks for all the recomendations... Several good options to try! I'm always amazed at the various ways each person comes up with to resolving a similar issue-- who would have thought-- string and popcicle sticks! I knew there had to be a way of getting a bond because I've seen so many beautiful pens with various segmented metal layers.

I have some of the standard JB weld I can try. Someone else also recommended I try some Locktite 454 that he swears will bond anything to anything (which I also have). I'll give each one a try along with the the other options until I find something that works.

Square or Round... I typically round my blanks BEFORE I drill and tap (for me it's easier), but no matter what glue method I end up using, I may also try the (glued) string just for additional protection. I"m not sure I mentioned, but I'm making fully custom pens, so I won't have the luxury of adding a tube to help with support. The joint will have to stand on it's own.

One thing I have NOT been doing is cleaning the aluminum (with a chemical) after I rough it up as was mentioned (only wiping it off with a paper towel). I'll add that to my process. Acetone was mentioned, but I don't have that. Before I go out and buy it, is there some other chemical that would work just as well? I have these: Denatured Alcohol (solvent); Lacquer thinner; Naptha; Paint thinner (oderless), and plain old rubbing alcohol (isopropyl 81%). I know some have an additive that can leave a film, so I'd probably want to stay away from any of those.

Thanks again for the help!

Cordially...JEB

JEB's PENs
www.jebspens.com


----------



## Curly

Laquer thinner. :wink:


----------



## Roy_Quast

JEB.....
Here is a tutorial that I did a while back. I think it will solve any and all of your problems. It will not matter if you have extra sharp tools or not or what kind of metal you use. Check it out and let me know if it can help you.
Roy

Brass & Ebony II - A Penturner's Paradise


----------



## ctubbs

Roy, amazing pen and tutorial.  Did you ever think about offering it to Tom for the Library?  Once again, they are amazing pieces of art, thank you for sharing.

Charles


----------



## plano_harry

Roy, thanks for the tutorial!  Great piece of work.  I had figured out that I needed to glue on side reinforcements to keep my segments from blowing out -- but had never seen the fish scale pen and would have no clue how to make one without your tutorial.  It was so complete, I might actually try one. :monkey:

I agree with Charles that the tutorial needs a safe place like the IAP Library.  I already formatted it into a pdf for my own keeping if you want it 

Harry


----------



## Robert111

johncrane said:


> To hold a square blank together while drilling ,use thin CA glue and wooden ice cream / pop stick's, glued the pop sticks to the out side's of the blank, On a 3/4 inch blank 2 sticks each side then trim off the edges. also before drilling you can turn the blank round between centers then wrap the blank with string and soak it with thin CA then drill it out.



Yup, and that reminds me that I drill my segmented blanks in a four-jaw chuck with splints on each side, similar to a popsicle stick but as wide as the blank. I don't glue them on because the chuck jaws keep them in contact with the length of the blank. Of course, I make the blank square on my disk sander before drilling, and cut them to length so they fit into the chuck without a lot sticking out.


----------



## Robert111

Quote
_One thing I have NOT been doing is cleaning the aluminum (with a chemical) after I rough it up as was mentioned (only wiping it off with a paper towel). I'll add that to my process. Acetone was mentioned, but I don't have that. Before I go out and buy it, is there some other chemical that would work just as well? I have these: Denatured Alcohol (solvent); Lacquer thinner; Naptha; Paint thinner (oderless), and plain old rubbing alcohol (isopropyl 81%). I know some have an additive that can leave a film, so I'd probably want to stay away from any of those._

I would not use paint thinner--leaves an oily residue, just what you don't want.

Acetone is CHEAP and clean.


----------



## Robert111

Roy_Quast said:


> JEB.....
> Here is a tutorial that I did a while back. I think it will solve any and all of your problems. It will not matter if you have extra sharp tools or not or what kind of metal you use. Check it out and let me know if it can help you.
> Roy
> 
> Brass & Ebony II - A Penturner's Paradise



Elegant solution. Truly!


----------



## johncrane

To hold a square blank together while drilling ,use thin CA glue and wooden ice cream / pop stick's, glued the pop sticks to the out side's of the blank, On a 3/4 inch blank 2 sticks each side then trim off the edges. also before drilling you can turn the blank round between centers then wrap the blank with string and soak it with thin CA then drill it out.[/quote]


----------



## johncrane

*gluing /turning blanks*

Spent half a day looking for these photos  anyway Some photos of a segmented wood and aluminum blank which was wrapped with string and soaked in ca for holding the blank together while drilling and turning on the lathe.


----------



## johncrane

*pen turning*

I could'nt find the photos of the segmented wood and aluminum blank which had the pop sticks glued to it before i turned it round it was a few years back.Anyway I did find 2 photos of a acrylic blank which i glued wood pop sticks too, i do this for another reason, it's for drilling a small 5/8 blank for the bigger kits, a bit more meat on the bone,save$$ :biggrin:  also  keeping  the Acrylic blank cool while drilling i use DNA in a spray bottle and spray it on the drill and into the hole, great for stopping heat/cracking.


----------



## underdog

*fish scale blank - holy cow...*

Roy.

Wow. That fish scale segmenting is awesome! I wonder how long it took you to come up with the first working blank, and how many blanks you blew up before you did?

How long does it take to make one of those things? And what's the going price for that pen? And how well do they hold up to daily use?


----------



## Roy_Quast

underdog said:


> Roy.
> 
> Wow. That fish scale segmenting is awesome! I wonder how long it took you to come up with the first working blank, and how many blanks you blew up before you did?
> 
> How long does it take to make one of those things? And what's the going price for that pen? And how well do they hold up to daily use?



Jim....
Once you have your jig made, it takes about 2 weeks, after I get home from work, to make the blank. I have not blown up ANY blanks, that was the whole reason for writing the totorial, to teach people how NOT to blow up blanks. The 2 things I hope people will learn from it is to add wood to all 4 sides to be able to drill all the way through it without it blowing up, and to use ONLY sandpaper if you have any kind of metal in it. 
As far as a price, I have no idea. The ebony and brass pen is the pen I have carried every day for the last 2 years and have droped it several times on the concrete floor where I work. It's still going strong. 
Roy


----------



## underdog

So... you haven't tried selling the blanks or a pen made from that blank. It's a lot of work if it takes that long. I'd have to charge big money just for the blank, not to mention the pen.

It sure is a good looking thing...


----------



## jppensplus

_I use a "flexible" CA that is formulated with some sort of rubber.  Still, I go VERY slowly when drilling, and I will use several drills as I create the hole for the brass tube, and I make sure I don't heat up the aluminum at all!!  Then, when I'm turning the blank I take tiny, tiny cuts with a very sharp carbide tool.  I   use the same CA to fill any gaps, cracks or any other spot where I might get a hang-up and therefore a possible blow-out.  And, as the others have mentioned, the blank is dowsed with thin CA repeatedly as the diameter is reduced.  Patience is rewarded!!_


----------



## Roy_Quast

To Charles and Harry...........
If you guys would like to put the tutoral in a PDF and give it to Tom for the library, you have my blessings as I do not know how to make a PDF file. Computer stupid...maybe, pen making...I hope not. Harry.....you said that you might actually try one so... if you ever do make a pen from the tutorial, please post it so we can all see what you have created.  

To JEB.... I hope my tutorial has not hi-jacked your thread, that was not my entention, I was just trying to help a fellow penturner with a segmenting problem that I once had.

Roy


----------



## edstreet

If it's worth using real glue, then use real glue: loctite E120HP or loctite 324 speedbonder.


----------



## jppensplus

My best results have come when I use a flexible CA--this CA has some rubber included in the recipe and imparts a bit of flexibility to the cured CA.  Initially I used a number of drill bits to gradually get to the final diameter of the hole drilled to accept the brass tube, but recently have use only two sizes--a 7mm drill to start and the final-size diameter drill----my theory is that this approach results in a net reduction of vibration and heat history in the glue line and it has worked for me.  I do take Tim Wise's recommendations of taping the blank before drilling and liberally using thin CA once I start turning the blank.


----------

