# mini rant



## Rifleman1776

We are here to share and help, with some fun thrown in along the way. But, comes a point where some folks need to help themselves. I refer to posts that say "My shipment from XYZ Supplies hasn't come yet and I ordered two days ago. What should I do?" Childish and nonsense. If you have a problem with a company, your first source of information and solution is....can we say "duh"....the company. Similarly, questions like "I just bought some 'whatever' kits, what bushings do I need? Again....."duh"....the company you bought the kits from. The answer to your question is usually on the same page in the catalog. Or if it was a telephone order, the nice lady at the telephone desk can answer that question. Doesn't need to be asked at all. We are not kindergartners, even though some act like they are. End of rant.


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## Dario

[]


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## alamocdc

At the risk of sounding Eagle-ish (and I'm already ducking for cover), let me just say that I totally agree, Frank! Before I made my first casing pen, I did a search (including the archives) for everything I could find here on casing pens. I formulated my own ideas on how to achieve certain results or accomplish a fit here or there. Then I experimented and in the process, I found what would and wouldn't work for me. Even after a few PM exchanges with other turners that had done quite a few of this type (after posting my first attempt), I stayed largely with what worked best for me. Experimentation (at least for me) is one of the things I like most about pen turning. And you don't have to be an engineer to figure things out. Yes, it might be easier if some one would spoon feed me the how-to's for everything, but I wouldn't really learn anything from the process. JMO here and I'm not trying to start something with the newbs. It's been said many times, this isn't rocket science and there's probably a few dozen ways to accomplish the same result. One only needs to find the way that works best for them and a little thought will help bring this about.

Didn't mean to hijack your rant, Frank.

Okay, let the shoosting begin (movie quote).

EDIT: Let me add that I've asked my share of questions here, but 1) only when I couldn't find the answer I was looking for in the archives (and sometimes it was because I didn't look hard enough and was pointed to the right place), and 2) when I tried something new and experienced a problem or situation where I needed additional information, or even chastisement. I'm not telling anyone not to ask questions. We are here to share information and learn from one another. Just try to be smart about the questions you ask. Hope that makes sense!


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## gerryr

I agree.  But, take heart, it isn't just pen turners who ask these kinds of questions.  When I actively participated on a rod building forum, the same kinds of questions were asked repeatedly.  But, there was the even dumber one, "what color thread should I use on XYZ rod blank?"  Sort of like what wood should I use for this XYZ pen kit?


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## johncrane

[][?]


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## PenWorks

Rough weekend Frank ? []


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## ed4copies

Remember that if we NEVER saw a repeated question, the "traffic" on the site would be down to about 3 entries a day.  

I agree, Frank, the bushings ARE on the same page and most people should be able to find them-so why don't they?  Perhaps, newer turners are looking for an opportunity to enter the "frey".  They see the "older guys" trading one liners and would like to become part of that "community" feeling.  So, let's show as much tolerance as possible.  After all, they can't all be as kind and level-headed as you.

Now, let's discuss the "drill bit conspiracy" for a while.[][][]

While I have NOT searched the archives, I'll bet it appears MORE than once!!


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## Rifleman1776

> _Originally posted by PenWorks_
> <br />
> Rough weekend Frank ? []



Not really. We babysat the grands. I'm a little tired. But something must have got under my skin. My post was a bit intemperate. But, still, it was an honest expression of how I feel about these things. Questions relating to stuff someone might not understand is just fine. We were all beginners at a lot of things. But coming to the forum(s) for company related issues just doesn't make sense to me. Just this a.m. a questing was posed on TPS that I responded to by saying 'look in catalog' or whatever. Oh, well, I'll just go back to kicking my wife's cat. [:0] (p.s. to Jeff: Just kidding [)] )


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## ed4copies

Oh, well, I'll just go back to kicking my wife's cat.  (p.s. to Jeff: Just kidding  )


Welcome back, Frank!!  (the one we all know and "love".)


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## Pipes

I know a LOT if NOT most of you know about forums and computers ! I for one and after 15yrs still trying to learn ! and I think a LOT are like myself and don't know how even to look up the old posts about subjexts &gt; I know I just found out HOW to do it here ! I saw LOTS a posts telling folks to go do it BUT NONE on HOW !!!!

As fo the questions I think the  new folks should be mdae to feel at ease and able to ask ANY question and any of us TRY and answer it ! as they will feel more at home here and become GREAT members to our forum JUST IMHO ... And the only dumb question is one you don't ask again IMO ...I know I stay with a forum that makes me feel welcome and answers MY DUMB questions that now and then we all ASK IMHO 




http://affordablepipes.com/


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## RogerGarrett

What drill bit conspiracy???

Roger Garrett[}]


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## JimGo

> _Originally posted by RogerGarrett_
> <br />What drill bit conspiracy???
> 
> Roger Garrett[}]



You don't want to go there Roger.  Trust us.


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## Dario

> _Originally posted by JimGo_
> <br />
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Originally posted by RogerGarrett_
> <br />What drill bit conspiracy???
> 
> Roger Garrett[}]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You don't want to go there Roger.  Trust us.
Click to expand...


LOL  [][}]


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## ed4copies

On the advice of legal counsel (JimGo) I will fail to answer the question at hand!!! (another LOL, my second in 2 years!!!)[][][][][]


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## DocStram

Geeeeee Ed .... I think your rant is already in the archives.  Maybe you should have checked the files.  Seems to me that a little search of the  archives would have saved you the time from ranting all over again!  
With tongue in cheek ane the utmost of respect ......


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## ed4copies

> _Originally posted by DocStram_
> <br />Geeeeee Ed .... I think your rant is already in the archives.  Maybe you should have checked the files.  Seems to me that a little search of the  archives would have saved you the time from ranting all over again!
> With tongue in cheek ane the utmost of respect ......



Clearly this is a typo

ED never rants!!!!!!!!!!!  Unless you have the wrong Ed.  This Ed ALWAYS states well-reasoned, objective replies.

Should you forget that, just let me know, I will type it again!!!

Failure to understand merely proves you are UNDER-informed.  I will wait, albeit may take decades, for you to become aware of ALL of the information at which point you will, clearly, agree with me.[][][][]


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## ed4copies

This was FRANK'S (Rifleman1776) rant!!!


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## Blind_Squirrel

Lighten up, Francis. []


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## TexasJohn

Frank - Were you once employeed by ENRON. [:0]


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## DFM

I believe there are two qualifiers for a rant.  First, the rant must be in a single paragraph.  Rifleman meets this prong of the test.  And second, the sentences must be at least two to three line each.  Although I applaud your use of punctuation, the run-on sentence structure need improvement. [)]


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## pastorbill1952

I sure do like pickles[][][][]


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## wdcav1952

I think the easiest thing to do would be to start a rant forum and make Frank the moderator.


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## Rifleman1776

Sorry, William. I just couldn't keep my adrenaline at peak levels all the time to handle that. Besides, how would one moderate a rant? [] I'll be nice again. (for a while [] )
BTW, I'm trying to figure out that Enron thingy. Answer: no. I'm fairly poor. 
p.s. If someone chuckled because of my rant, it was worth it. Jeff, your cat can come out from hiding now.


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## Rifleman1776

Mebbe I'm on a mini-roll. Over on Sawmill Creek, someone asked where he could get a part for his Jet mini-lathe. Come on folks, he doesn't need to be near sharp things or power tools. In case anyone here is puzzling over that one: answer: Jet or the dealer he bought it from.


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## Ron Mc

Back to the original topic. Let's face it....it can be easier for a new pen turner to simply ask a question than to go digging for the answer. I believe that at some point we have all done it. If someone that knows the answer can simply take a moment and post then good for them. This only applies to turning or parts questions of course. Due to the fact that none of us would have any idea why an order was shorted or why someones box hasn't shown up this would be impossible to answer. Thus just don't reply at all.[]


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## tas2181

As long as the subject of archives has been brooched and hoping not to raise the ire of those here- one question.

Is there anyway to access the archived posts other than doing a search and checking the 'archived posts' box? If there is I can't find it.

Tom


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## Penmonkey

Good idea. End of rant.


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## jeff

> _Originally posted by tas2181_
> Is there anyway to access the archived posts other than doing a search and checking the 'archived posts' box? If there is I can't find it.
> Tom


On the default forum page in the rightmost column, you should see a yellow folder icon with an "A" in the center. Clicking that icon takes you to the archives where you can browse all archived topics.




<br />


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## tas2181

Thanks Jeff

Simple enough even for me.[:I]

Tom


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## ed4copies

> _Originally posted by tas2181_
> <br />As long as the subject of archives has been brooched and hoping not to raise the ire of those here- one question.
> 
> Is there anyway to access the archived posts other than doing a search and checking the 'archived posts' box? If there is I can't find it.
> 
> Tom



This guy must be new!!!  A GREAT question, with Jeff's usual great answer (yes, I suck up to the management).  

I DIDN'T KNOW THIS!!!


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## tas2181

Nice suck-up Ed. (From one cheesehead to another)

Just a simple question- as enquiring minds wanted to know.

Tom


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## angboy

One tip to anybody searching for prior postings- and maybe everyone already knows this but it took me several months to figure out- I always wondered why everyone else seemed to be able to find posts that I couldn't find! Apparently, when you're searching, if you check "archived posts", the search engine then ONLY looks in the archived posts. I just assumed that meant it would look in recent, non-archived posts, as well as archived posts, so that I was adding the request to look farther back. But you don't actually get the recent posts that haven't been archived when you do this. So basically, you have to do 2 searches to be sure to cover where a post might be- one with archived checked and one not.

If this was already general knowledge, then I apologize, but this really gave me trouble for quite awhile, and so it may help new people when searching.


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## ed4copies

Angela,

Yes that probably is GENERAL knowledge.  As a lowly SARGEANT, I had no idea!!!


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## Pipes

AS a private of the lowest class I thank YOU I didn't know that either !! [:I]





http://affordablepipes.com/


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## sptfr43

anyone know what size drillbit I need for a 7mm pen?[}][][}]


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## arioux

Hi,

Actually, someone hasked that question a while ago and if i remenber (should do a search, Russ Fairfield came up with a very interesting answer about making the hole a little bit bigger than 7mm and using Poly glue.  This would allow more room for the tube to work and prevent some of the cracking that beginner like me are having when assembling slims.  

Well there is good thing about asking basic question, even if the answer could be found by doing a search.  Penturning is a constant evolution and sometimes, and people find new way of doing even the so called basic things and don't always think that this could be a technic to share.  Dum question can sometimes bring great answer.


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## mdburn_em

> _Originally posted by arioux_
> <br />Hi,
> 
> Actually, someone hasked that question a while ago and if i remenber (should do a search, Russ Fairfield came up with a very interesting answer about making the hole a little bit bigger than 7mm and using Poly glue.  This would allow more room for the tube to work and prevent some of the cracking that beginner like me are having when assembling slims.
> 
> Well there is good thing about asking basic question, even if the answer could be found by doing a search.  Penturning is a constant evolution and sometimes, and people find new way of doing even the so called basic things and don't always think that this could be a technic to share.  Dum question can sometimes bring great answer.


I would have to agree with this statement.  BB on AS site states he won't sell a 7 mm bit because it's too small for the hole.  You can't get enough glue to get a good hold.
One thing I'll say about common sense is that it's unique to each person.  One persons common sense is another's insanity.
What is odd, when you really think about it, Frank, is that these people really don't know or they wouldn't ask the question.  I, personally, am a MASTER at missing the obvious.  I appreciate it when people kindly and with dignity let me know I'm an idiot.[]


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## Schneider

Glad I read this rant. I would have never known about going over the 7mm  drill bit and using poly glue.


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## jaywood1207

I wish I could complain about orders that take 2 or 3 days.  Some of mine take up to 3 or 4 weeks but I'm not complaining.[]  I have come to accept that fact.  

I can appreciate all of the comments here but also will say as somebody that has been watching this site for a few months that when I try to follow some of the how to's they don't work for me.  As a result, I may post a question that seems redundant to the higher seniority members (no I am not referring to age) but how else can we learn.  The unfortunate part is that sometimes these questions go unanswered because maybe it is considered redundant and then I or we are stuck in the same situation and still haven't learned how to do what we were trying.  This doesn't only refer to making pens but also navigating and using the site.  I'm not trying to get anybody going here just stating my opinion.


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## wdcav1952

I cannot speak for Frank, but based on reading the various comments posted on this thread, I am speaking for myself.

No one should mind questions from those less experienced.  We were all there at one time.  It does help if the person asking the question has done a small bit of research to help themselves first.  One question asked at the site was "what is the URL for Penn State Industries?"  That kind of question is mildly irritating since a few seconds on Google will give the URL.  Rich K at the Yahoo group stresses the need to read the FAQ at the site since it will likely answer most questions.  Doing so will also educate you far beyond your original question.

Use catalog websites, search engines, and onsite articles before asking basic questions.  If you cannot find the answer, then ask on the forum.  Trust me, you will learn more in the search than you originally intended.

FWIW,


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## Dario

> _Originally posted by wdcav1952_
> <br />I cannot speak for Frank, but based on reading the various comments posted on this thread, I am speaking for myself.
> 
> <b>No one should mind questions from those less experienced.  We were all there at one time.  It does help if the person asking the question has done a small bit of research to help themselves first. </b>  One question asked at the site was "what is the URL for Penn State Industries?"  That kind of question is mildly irritating since a few seconds on Google will give the URL.  <b>Rich K at the Yahoo group stresses the need to read the FAQ at the site since it will likely answer most questions.  Doing so will also educate you far beyond your original question.</b>
> 
> Use catalog websites, search engines, and onsite articles before asking basic questions.  If you cannot find the answer, then ask on the forum.  <b>Trust me, you will learn more in the search than you originally intended.</b>
> FWIW,



Well said as usual.  Can't agree more [^]


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## ed4copies

Cav,

I think your two weeks are about finished!!
I better go back to spilling rite!


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## Rifleman1776

> _Originally posted by sptfr43_
> <br />anyone know what size drillbit I need for a 7mm pen?[}][][}]



Actually, there is one supplier, often fondly spoken of here, who says the 7mm drill bit is incorrect for a 7mm pen. Don't question his (supposed) knowledge or he will likely refuse to sell to you in the future. pm me if you want details.


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## alamocdc

I initially used the 7mm brad point that came with my starter set, but soon noticed that the bit tended to wander through the blank.[!] Very shortly thereafter I picked up the 115 bit TN coated set from HF and started using the "J" bit for 7mm pens and I've been much more satisfied with the straightness of my holes since. Just in point of fact, I never had a glue failure using the 7mm bit and have on occasion even used an "I" bit... also with no failures.


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## RogerGarrett

> ED never rants!!!!!!!!!!!  Unless you have the wrong Ed.  This Ed ALWAYS states well-reasoned, objective replies.



Me thinketh I must visit the archives.  I can't stand the tension from my own curiosity.

R[}]


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## wdcav1952

Now, Frank, you are starting another mini-rant.  I, like Billy, used my brad point 7mm drill for a year or two, and other than a bit of wandering which was likely due to my old, since replaced, drill press.  never had a gluing problem.  Once it got dull, I switched to a "J" bit, bought from your favorite(?) supplier and am very happy with it.

BTW, I have been on a Rx for "chill pills" for about 3 years, and am much happier.  No, it is not for everyone, but I enjoy not getting "het up" as much as I used to.

FWIW,


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## wpenm

William, I call them "happy pills".[]


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## ed4copies

> _Originally posted by wdcav1952_
> <br />
> 
> BTW, I have been on a Rx for "chill pills" for about 3 years, and am much happier. ...
> 
> FWIW,



Cav,

Will those pills drop the temp in my office from 85 to, say, 70???  That would go a long way toward improving my outlook (and productivity).[8D][8D][8D][8D]


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## wdcav1952

Ed, there has to be an ex-wife joke in there somewhere, but not being cognizant of the statute of limitation laws, I will leave it for someone else.


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## GBusardo

I started my reply three times and I had to go back and read the thread again. lol
The more I think about it, I agree with William C. If "stupid" questions are discouraged, it will not help increase the traffic here or make the new turner feel welcome (i will always be new to wood working, I learn something new everyday).  The search the archives comes in handy for me if I knew i seen the thread, but can't remember where or when. If someone new comes in and searches  "mandrel" , he or she will get a couple of hundred posts. Mandrel will come up whenever its written. OK, now what? It's just easier to ask, someone always helps.  What's old hat to most, is pig latin to others.  Has anyone tried to teach their skill to someone who don't know pine from oak? You know way more than you realise. Maybe the person who asked for the web address for PSI, has no clue what Google is.  Before you laugh, I had someone ask me last night how to spell Google. He couldn't even type in Google, let alone search for what he was looking for. By the way, the guy who asked me to help him search on google, is a master cake decorator. I am a Libra, so I tend to see both sides of any issue. Share your wealth, it's a good thing!!!  []


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## Ron in Drums PA

> _Originally posted by GBusardo_
> <br />I started my reply three times and I had to go back and read the thread again. lol
> The more I think about it, I agree with William C. If "stupid" questions are discouraged, it will not help increase the traffic here or make the new turner feel welcome (i will always be new to wood working, I learn something new everyday).  The search the archives comes in handy for me if I knew i seen the thread, but can't remember where or when. If someone new comes in and searches  "mandrel" , he or she will get a couple of hundred posts. Mandrel will come up whenever its written. OK, now what? It's just easier to ask, someone always helps.  What's old hat to most, is pig latin to others.  Has anyone tried to teach their skill to someone who don't know pine from oak? You know way more than you realise. Maybe the person who asked for the web address for PSI, has no clue what Google is.  Before you laugh, I had someone ask me last night how to spell Google. He couldn't even type in Google, let alone search for what he was looking for. By the way, the guy who asked me to help him search on google, is a master cake decorator. I am a Libra, so I tend to see both sides of any issue. Share your wealth, it's a good thing!!!  []




Yup!!

If we stop answering all those "simple" questions for beginners, all we would have left on IAP would be experts


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## Rifleman1776

Folks, I did call it a "rant". To me, that means a frustrated expression of opinion. IMHO, it would also allow for a little bit of illogic blowing off of steam. Questions are always welcome here and most of us try to help those who ask. I have received a lot of help and it was appreciated. But, I have a personal grievance with persons of (supposedly) adult age and normal intelligence asking childish, stupid questions. e.g. "I just bought a Whiz mini-lathe from Woodstore and a part was missing from the box. What should I do?" Only an infantile idjit would not know to contact the retailer it was purchased from or the manufacturer. That bothers me. But that's just me. 


Edit and an addition to above: Some might be wondering why I am sensitive to what I call the 'idjit' condition. For many years, I have been on several firearms related discussion lists. A (frighteningly) very common question that comes up is something like this: "I just bought a Remchester rifle from the local gunstore. How can I tell what size ammunition it takes and where can I buy some?"
Scary that these idjits are walking around out there with guns. And these guys are often the same ones who make your bank loans or do surgery on your family, teach your kids, whatever. No one is going to accidentally blast off someones head with a pen kit but the idjit questions are still just as disconcerting.


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## Ron in Drums PA

I don't know Frank, you may be right about the guns and ammo.

But many times a Noob would ask these silly questions just as an ice breaker to get aquatinted.

Personally, I believe there is such a thing as a silly question and every silly question deserves a silly answer. 

I think when a doctor doesn't know what type of ammo goes into his gun is not unreasonable. Their life may not be centered around weapons. Would you know which scalpel to use for brain surgery? I mean, you do have a brain, right? You had it all your life, so, shouldn't you know?
[}][}][]


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## wood-of-1kind

> _Originally posted by Ron in Drums PA_
> <br />I mean, you do have a brain, right? You had it all your life, so, shouldn't you know?
> [}][}][]



Ron, is this a trick question[?][] Inquisitive minds need to know.

-Peter-


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## bonefish

I always thought that if you asked a stupid question, you ended up engaged.

Bonefish[][][]


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## alamocdc

> _Originally posted by bonefish_
> <br />I always thought that if you asked a stupid question, you ended up engaged.
> 
> Bonefish[][][]



ROTFLMAO!!!! Boy, ain't that the truth! Thirty two years now and I'm still paying for that one, but she ain't all bad. And more importantly, I couldn't afford to get rid of her even if I wanted to.[:0]


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## bonefish

39 years for me. The only problem we have right now is that when I make a pen she likes, she grabs it and refuses to pay for it.

The excuse she gives is something like washing my clothes and taking care of me for the past 39 years.

Have you ever heard of a such a weak excuse?[]

Bonefish


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## Rifleman1776

> _Originally posted by Ron in Drums PA_
> <br />I don't know Frank, you may be right about the guns and ammo.
> 
> But many times a Noob would ask these silly questions just as an ice breaker to get aquatinted.
> 
> Personally, I believe there is such a thing as a silly question and every silly question deserves a silly answer.
> 
> I think when a doctor doesn't know what type of ammo goes into his gun is not unreasonable. Their life may not be centered around weapons. Would you know which scalpel to use for brain surgery? I mean, you do have a brain, right? You had it all your life, so, shouldn't you know?
> [}][}][]




  Ron, hopefully, this response will not offend you. The problem in the example I stated revolves around the fact that the idjit in question bought the gun at a local gunshop. As an idjit, he bought without knowing caliber and didn't think to ask the dealer what he was buying. Further idjit behavior came from his not have the mental cognizance to understand that a gun shop also sells ammunition and didn't think to ask the gun dealer for any. My example is not an exaggeration. I have seen these identical questions asked hundreds of times over the years. Hope we are not too late to save you from the idjit brain surgeon. []


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## Ron in Drums PA

> _Originally posted by bonefish_
> <br />I always thought that if you asked a stupid question, you ended up engaged.
> 
> Bonefish[][][]



I joke I heard the other day:
_After a quarrel, a husband said to his wife, â€œYou know, I was a fool when I married you.â€
She replied, â€œYes, dear, but I was in love, and didnâ€™t notice.â€_


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## Ron in Drums PA

> _Originally posted by Rifleman1776_
> <br />
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Originally posted by Ron in Drums PA_
> <br />I don't know Frank, you may be right about the guns and ammo.
> 
> But many times a Noob would ask these silly questions just as an ice breaker to get aquatinted.
> 
> Personally, I believe there is such a thing as a silly question and every silly question deserves a silly answer.
> 
> I think when a doctor doesn't know what type of ammo goes into his gun is not unreasonable. Their life may not be centered around weapons. Would you know which scalpel to use for brain surgery? I mean, you do have a brain, right? You had it all your life, so, shouldn't you know?
> [}][}][]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ron, hopefully, this response will not offend you. The problem in the example I stated revolves around the fact that the idjit in question bought the gun at a local gunshop. As an idjit, he bought without knowing caliber and didn't think to ask the dealer what he was buying. Further idjit behavior came from his not have the mental cognizance to understand that a gun shop also sells ammunition and didn't think to ask the gun dealer for any. My example is not an exaggeration. I have seen these identical questions asked hundreds of times over the years. Hope we are not too late to save you from the idjit brain surgeon. []
Click to expand...


Luckly, I don't choose doctors based on thier knowledge of guns.


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## ed4copies

Recently read, Ron:

My wife and I had words last night.

I never got to use mine.


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## wdcav1952

[]





> _Originally posted by Ron in Drums PA_
> <br />
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Originally posted by Rifleman1776_
> <br />
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Originally posted by Ron in Drums PA_
> <br />I don't know Frank, you may be right about the guns and ammo.
> 
> But many times a Noob would ask these silly questions just as an ice breaker to get aquatinted.
> 
> Personally, I believe there is such a thing as a silly question and every silly question deserves a silly answer.
> 
> I think when a doctor doesn't know what type of ammo goes into his gun is not unreasonable. Their life may not be centered around weapons. Would you know which scalpel to use for brain surgery? I mean, you do have a brain, right? You had it all your life, so, shouldn't you know?
> [}][}][]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ron, hopefully, this response will not offend you. The problem in the example I stated revolves around the fact that the idjit in question bought the gun at a local gunshop. As an idjit, he bought without knowing caliber and didn't think to ask the dealer what he was buying. Further idjit behavior came from his not have the mental cognizance to understand that a gun shop also sells ammunition and didn't think to ask the gun dealer for any. My example is not an exaggeration. I have seen these identical questions asked hundreds of times over the years. Hope we are not too late to save you from the idjit brain surgeon. []
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Luckly, I don't choose doctors based on thier knowledge of guns.
Click to expand...


Or spelling? [][}][}]


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## Penmonkey

5 pages? This is getting old.[|)]


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## guts

Travis,maybe if you are lucky you will get old [8D]


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## johncrane

Theres idjit's  downunder to Frank, but little Johnny Howard has taken there guns away.


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## Hexhead

I have a question......never mind.


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## TBone

I'll bet $5 to a donut that the doctor didn't ask the gun shop operator about ammo because he didn't want him to know that he just bought a gun without having a clue.  Easier to do it on the internet where he's anonymous


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## bob393

Let me just say this about that, oh forget it.


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