# Questions about finishing



## Herb G (Oct 5, 2016)

I have finished pens with CA several times, but after awhile, they become sticky, or the finish wears off. To solve that problem, I am thinking of using some de-waxed shellac (AKA Seal Coat) as a sealer, then using my airbrush to spray coat some water based poly on the wood before assembly.

I would use several coats of the water based poly to build up the finish.
I know poly is pretty much indestructible when it's dry.
Would spraying poly on acrylic work?

Has anyone used this method of finishing pens before?
Does anyone foresee any problems using this method?

Anything I should look out for?

Thanks for any help.


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## Monty (Oct 5, 2016)

Herb G said:


> I have finished pens with CA several times, but after awhile, they become sticky, or the finish wears off...


I've never had ever heard of a CA finish become sticky. How are you applying the CA?


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## Herb G (Oct 5, 2016)

Same way everyone else does it. Apply a bit with a paper towel, spin it as it dries, repeat as necessary.


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## keithbyrd (Oct 5, 2016)

I agree with Monty I have never had CA get sticky or wear off.  I have a a few develop cracks in the finish (3-4 pens) but never sticky or wearing off.  
Can you be more descriptive of how you finish with CA?  Brand? Age? do you use accelerator?


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## edstreet (Oct 5, 2016)

I have seen this a number of times.  However, in those cases it was related to errors with the application.

Also I would like to point out that with certain exposures the CA finish can and will turn to mush.


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## monophoto (Oct 5, 2016)

I've used both solvent and water-based poly as a wipe-on finish over shellac sealer.  Both are good.  wB is faster because the dwell time between applications is shorter, but the color is neutral verging on blue which doesn't look good on all timbers.

Another approach is to apply a thick coating of the finish with a brush, and then leave it spinning at a very low speed until the finish starts to set up.  The continuous rotation in combination causes the finish to self-level and minimizes the amount of finish polishing that is needed.  About four coats will produce a thick finish that can be polished to a high gloss.  Some people build special finishing machines using slow-speed motors, but if you have a variable-speed lathe that has a fairly slow bottom end, it will do the trick.


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## jttheclockman (Oct 5, 2016)

edstreet said:


> I have seen this a number of times.  However, in those cases it was related to errors with the application.
> 
> Also I would like to point out that with certain exposures the CA finish can and will turn to mush.



Of course you have Ed. You seen it all and as usual VAGUE about it.

Now would you like to enlighten the class a little bit and share this vast knowledge of yours. 

What CA was used???  What conditions have turned a CA finish to mush??  What operator error should be avoided to prevent this from happening??? The 10 + years I have been here and all the ????? about CA and methods used this is the first I ever heard of turning to mush. I am always willing to learn from any source possible. I only have limited days left on this earth. When I finally meet the Good Lord he may ask me what I learned while on earth and I want to be able to add this to my list.


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## jttheclockman (Oct 5, 2016)

Herb

If it is acid from a person's hands that is breaking down a CA finish then I do not believe there is a surface finish out there that will withstand this. You may have to resort to a natural finish and just clean and polish the best way possible. Now if it is a chemical transferred from gloves worn by owner of pen or even from hand contact then again that needs to be addressed by owner. This is a rare finding in my opinion but Ed will tell us all more.


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## rd_ab_penman (Oct 5, 2016)

I use MINWAX WBOM Polyurethane using my Dipping Method to finish all my wood blanks and decal work on wood and antler.
Much easier to apply than any CA finish with no sanding or polishing and is just as durable as any CA finish.

Les


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## jsolie (Oct 5, 2016)

edstreet said:


> I have seen this a number of times.  However, in those cases it was related to errors with the application.
> 
> Also I would like to point out that with certain exposures the CA finish can and will turn to mush.



Hi Ed,

Could you elaborate on what those certain exposures might be?  Maybe it's just the part of the world I live in with relatively low humidity, but I have not experienced CA turning to mush.  I have a couple of pens that I recently finished with CA that will be sent to a client in the middle of the country, and I don't want any problems.

Thanks!


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## nativewooder (Oct 5, 2016)

Of course, you do realize that each coat of CA must be allowed to dry before polishing it.  Everyone does it differently, but I think you should figure out where you are messing up before you change to a different form of finish.  Always best to have two or three ways to finish pens.


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## Wildman (Oct 6, 2016)

"Boiled linseed oil contains drying agents, whereas tung oil does not, so linseed oil dries faster. Tung oil requires sanding between each coat, whereas linseed oil only requires sanding after the first coat. Boiled linseed oil can go rancid, whereas tung oil cannot, according to Canadian Woodworking & Home Improvement. An advantage of boiled linseed oil is that is cheaper than tung oil. Tung oil does not yellow over time. "  

I doubt BLO will go rancid where as pure linseed oil will.  There are a lot of wiping varnishes & oil varnish blends that tout having tung oil in the product.  Best clue is product label or product SD or MSDS.  Its a toss up which oil dries faster when considering linseed or tung oil unless use solvent!

Russ’s article on oils is pretty good primer.  
Russ's Corner: A WoodCentral Archive

If have doubt what is a wiping varnish or oil varnish blend check out Bob Flexner’s article.  
Oil Finishes: Their History and Use - Popular Woodworking Magazine

Without a solvent pure Tung oil takes long time to dry many venders recommend  using Citrus Solvent today.  You can also use MS as a solvent.  You need several coats of Tung oil to provide water resistance.

Would not recommend Tung Oil unless allow for drying.


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## farmer (Oct 11, 2016)

Herb G said:


> I have finished pens with CA several times, but after awhile, they become sticky, or the finish wears off. To solve that problem, I am thinking of using some de-waxed shellac (AKA Seal Coat) as a sealer, then using my airbrush to spray coat some water based poly on the wood before assembly.
> 
> I would use several coats of the water based poly to build up the finish.
> I know poly is pretty much indestructible when it's dry.
> ...



You can switch to a UV finish Like solarez  where you use a hair salon UV lamp to dry the finish in a matter of 5 or 10 minutes .
Solarez dries rock hard and the finish will not shatter ..


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## zener (Oct 14, 2016)

@farmer Interesting. Have you ever had delaminations with Solarez? And do you use the vinyl ester sealer coat?


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## farmer (Oct 14, 2016)

*No delaminations*



zener said:


> @farmer Interesting. Have you ever had delaminations with Solarez? And do you use the vinyl ester sealer coat?



No delamination's yet, I have been doing a 105/207 west systems epoxy base coat.
I just started  using the Solarez on pool cues and my pipes .

Here is a thread in a billiards forum on the finish .
Allot of info IMO and worth reading ..
Solarez UV finish - AzBilliards.com


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## edstreet (Oct 14, 2016)

I actually have some being delivered today


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## farmer (Oct 14, 2016)

*CA finish*



edstreet said:


> I actually have some being delivered today



I do not regret moving a way from a CA finish and starting to use Epoxy or Solarez .


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## zener (Oct 14, 2016)

farmer said:


> zener said:
> 
> 
> > @farmer Interesting. Have you ever had delaminations with Solarez? And do you use the vinyl ester sealer coat?
> ...



Thanks for the info! In case it's useful to anyone, here's some info that solarez sent when I emailed them

"You are a very similar user as our pool cue builders as they too use woods such as Cocobolo or rosewood or materials such as bare metal or phenolics.
We have a vinyl ester epoxy grain sealer / primer that will help you through this
Vinyl Ester UV-Cure Grain Sealer - Wahoo International, Inc

regular polyester GLOSS gives best results
Acrylic modified give longer outdoors use
Vinyl ester nano quartz gloss is for higher heat endurance and more abrasion resistance"


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## jttheclockman (Oct 14, 2016)

Yes this is something that is being tried in the pool cue world and so far it has had good results. But there is a learning curve and also methods to use. It can peel if the right undercoat is not used. I have been reading some and have not come across anything stating that is a building finish. Can other coats be added without problems. It does have an odor something like bondo from what I am reading. I may try some myself and play around with it.


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## zener (Oct 14, 2016)

You can add multiple coats as far as I know, and I get the impression that it goes on thicker than CA without cracking or anything. There are some videos on their channel where they finish a guitar and a surfboard, just so you can see how they do it https://www.youtube.com/user/LauraDKaye/videos

Surfboards seem to be one of their primary uses, which is what got me interested in the first place. If it's durable and waterproof enough for a surfboard it should be pretty bombproof on a pen!


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## edstreet (Oct 14, 2016)

With the right CA you can apply it very VERY thick with no cracking.  I do it all the time.


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## zener (Oct 14, 2016)

I guess I'm using the wrong CA then! xD I don't use accelerator though, so maybe that's part of the problem


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## edstreet (Oct 14, 2016)

I use accelerator as well.  I get a very flexible coating and it goes on very thick.


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## zener (Oct 14, 2016)

That sounds awesome! Do you use the BSI CA?


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## Terredax (Oct 14, 2016)

edstreet-
I'm not following your posts.
You give one line posts with no definitive information, like you are a cyanoacrylate deity. Since you have superior knowledge about cyanoacrylates, and have obviously used every brand available, and have personally seen the issue the OP is having, why not just share your infinite wisdom to help resolve the problem?

I have never witnessed CA become mush, however, I've seen it discolor, craze, chip and scratch. I'm unaware of any exposure that would cause it to turn to mush.

I suppose, maybe, extreme heat could cause it to melt, but who would expose a pen to that type of heat?

I'm sure that I'm not the only one that would appreciate and potentially benefit from your enlightenment on the subject.


I would consider my chemistry to be acidic and I have damaged different finishes by holding them, but the polyurethane seems to hold up really well against this problem for me. I haven't damaged any polyurethaned surfaces
by holding or handling them.


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## edstreet (Oct 14, 2016)

zener, I do. Super-gold. Search for dragon scale gent conversion. I converted a gent jr dragon scale from Toni to fit a noveau sceptre


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## zener (Oct 14, 2016)

Holy moly, that's insane! I can't believe that's not epoxy! Thanks for pointing me to that, that's really impressive!


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## edstreet (Oct 14, 2016)

Terredax said:


> edstreet-
> I'm not following your posts.
> You give one line posts with no definitive information, like you are a cyanoacrylate deity. Since you have superior knowledge about cyanoacrylates, and have obviously used every brand available, and have personally seen the issue the OP is having, why not just share your infinite wisdom to help resolve the problem?
> 
> ...



Lets set a few issues straight shall we?

*) I am not a cyanoacrylate deity.  I am however well researched and reasonably educated on the topic, there are people out there who are more educated than I am.

*) I have not used 'every brand' of CA but I have used several, I have lost count as to how many I have used and I was not paying attention for a good number of years.

*) CA is like a thermoplastic, several things will affect it; of those heat and chemicals can greatly do it harm.  CA is removed with products like ACETONE and it will turn to mush and dissolve into the fluid.

*) CA can turn mushy when heat is applied, i.e. left in a HOT HOT HOT car (that's approx 130-140F btw)

I have had one pen turn to MUSH after applying a CA finish.  I had who knows what trapped inside the wood blank and in a period of about 3 months time the whole pen was destroyed.  It went from a hard wood to goo in about 90 days (3 months) time period.

Also I would like to point out that the human body, sweat to be specific, can be very rich with elements, skin picks up and harbors things as well.  Exposure to the pen with traces of some elements can do damage as well.  Lets not forget that a pen in a purse or other closed/semi-closed environment with exposure to things like leather, fumes and so forth can also cause significant damage to the CA, same holds true with other finishes as well.


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## farmer (Oct 14, 2016)

*CA*

I have had CA that never hardened up and I  think it was because the CA had gotten  old .
The CA had seemed to of thickened up in the bottle and kind of reminded me of  stringy snot. 

I use CA on my stacked leather stuff and it works great regardless if the CA is old or not as a clear finish .


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## robertkulp (Oct 20, 2016)

farmer said:


> I have had CA that never hardened up and I  think it was because the CA had gotten  old .
> The CA had seemed to of thickened up in the bottle and kind of reminded me of  stringy snot.



Yes, you had old/bad CA. Once CA begins to thicken in the bottle, especially if it seems to be coagulating, it should be tossed. You can not use acetone as a thinner to CA - it doesn't work that way.

Once CA _begins_ to go bad, it's already unusable for finishing. Toss it and get a new bottle.


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## leehljp (Oct 20, 2016)

I am enjoying this thread. Great ideas. Thanks to all for sharing the different informations.


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## TonyL (Oct 21, 2016)

I received my Solarez today and just finished my first apply it (literally 30 minutes ago). As least as of right now, each coat look like a deeper coat of CA, but without using as many coats of the Solarez (but see what I bought..it was not cheap).

I have also spoken to Rick and Gary (Gary is the inventor) several times over the last week and today, as well as emailed them a list of questions after my first attempt.

I did achieved the desired finish, but only on one barrel. 

This is what I bought/used:

Fly Tying UV Curing Resin - Ultra Thin
Vinyl Ester UV-Cure Grain Sealer - Wahoo International, Inc
UV Cure Flashlight - High Output - Wahoo International, Inc

I am sure there's a less expensive light out there, but I didn't mind the price.

What I bought did build a little more than medium CA..I liked the viscosity of both products. I used it on a resin/burl blank. I did have to sand from 400 up (no MM or water), then buff.

It is too early for me to say anything about it because I may return to my shop in the morning and find it not in the condition that I left it. The ultra thin is $15 for a half ounce. I only really needed 2 or 3 coats , but it is not cheap. I will use it up, see how it holds up and then either stay with it or go for the less expensive product (which according to Gary, has fumes).

Gary said the product is hydrophobic (afraid of water LOL), so that is a good thing.
I am glad that I gave it a try and I'll try some more.


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## leehljp (Oct 21, 2016)

TonyL said:


> This is what I bought/used:
> Fly Tying UV Curing Resin - Ultra Thin
> Vinyl Ester UV-Cure Grain Sealer - Wahoo International, Inc
> UV Cure Flashlight - High Output - Wahoo International, Inc



Taking this a bit farther:
Has anyone used a 120v UV light for curing? 

I see more consistency if a steady light is moved over the top, or one is positioned / hung over the top - especially for wobbly old hands. And with the plethora of items surrounding me on the lathe - sandpaper, finishes, tools, calipers, cleaners, buffers etc, it is already cluttered enough. A hanging or swivel UV light over top would be ideal.


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## TonyL (Oct 21, 2016)

I don't know the answer to the question (which is a great one), but some of the YouTube videos feature the use of other, broader, lights. The instruction warn of over-cooking the product, but the product is formulated to cure in sunlight - so I don't know.


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## adirondak5 (Oct 21, 2016)

Very interesting . Tony , can you describe your process from start to finish with the Solarez ? 
Thanks


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## TonyL (Oct 21, 2016)

Of course, but I used 6 different process with varying degrees of success and have several questions into Solarez. Once, I think I have perfected it for my purposes, I will gladly share with all. That is the "beauty" of a forum like this...sharing information. I promise. The process that achieved the best results was not exactly was Solorez recommended. I want to be sure before I ill-advise anyone. You can call me and I can tell you what I did. PM me your number if interested.


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## adirondak5 (Oct 21, 2016)

TonyL said:


> Of course, but I used 6 different process with varying degrees of success and have several questions into Solarez. Once, I think I have perfected it for my purposes, I will gladly share with all. That is the "beauty" of a forum like this...sharing information. I promise. The process that achieved the best results was not exactly was Solorez recommended. I want to be sure before I ill-advise anyone. You can call me and I can tell you what I did. PM me your number if interested.



Thanks Tony , I can wait . I'm just looking for something other than CA to finish with that will give better protection than friction polish , the Solarez looks interesting , and looks like it might be a good system .


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## TonyL (Oct 21, 2016)

I also just ordered their Thin Hard product, and I got my questions answered. At least, when it comes to when I do something, their is a learning curve. I will advise ASAP.


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## adirondak5 (Oct 21, 2016)

TonyL said:


> I also just ordered their Thin Hard product, and I got my questions answered. At least, when it comes to when I do something, their is a learning curve. I will advise ASAP.



I filled out their contact form yesterday asking some questions , haven't heard back yet , but the Thin Hard was one of the products I was looking at .


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## TonyL (Oct 22, 2016)

I have been speaking to Rick almost exchanging emails with Gary.
The Ulti dries in a second with the UV light held 6 to 8 inched from the surface (that was in line with my experience.

Gary just wrote me that the Thin Hard dries in 20 seconds...still very good. I should get it by mid next week. Ebay was the least expensive when combined with shipping.

So far I have not found the vinyl grain sealer anything to right home about, but I plan to try it on to wooden pens tomorrow. According to Gary the grain sealer doesn't respond as well to the UV flash light as it does to sunlight. I will see.


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## adirondak5 (Oct 22, 2016)

TonyL said:


> I have been speaking to Rick almost exchanging emails with Gary.
> The Ulti dries in a second with the UV light held 6 to 8 inched from the surface (that was in line with my experience.
> 
> Gary just wrote me that the Thin Hard dries in 20 seconds...still very good. I should get it by mid next week. Ebay was the least expensive when combined with shipping.
> ...




I saw their ebay listings and without going back to the website thought the prices and shipping seemed reasonable . Interesting that the sealer doesn't respond to the UV flashlight as well as the other products . They make so many different types of finishes it can be a challenge figuring out what to use , even just for testing purposes .


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## TonyL (Oct 22, 2016)

> They make so many different types of finishes it can be a challenge figuring
> out what to use , even just for testing purposes .


 
That is why I spent 45 minutes on the phone with Gary about a week ago....I was lost. I think like other products, one has to experiment and see what suits you (or doesn't suit you). 

I am going to give the Ulti product and sealer another try today. I learned yesterday that I was holding the light too close for either products...they recommend 6 to 8 inches from the surface.


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## edstreet (Oct 22, 2016)

What ever happened to learn on your own and not depend on others to teach you.


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## adirondak5 (Oct 22, 2016)

edstreet said:


> What ever happened to learn on your own and not depend on others to teach you.



 Wow , sorry you feel that way , do you need a hug today ??


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## maxwell_smart007 (Oct 22, 2016)

edstreet said:


> What ever happened to learn on your own and not depend on others to teach you.



I really don't want to have to delete anything, but this seems designed to create the type of posts that can make a nice thread like this turn sour very quickly...

Please ignore this post I've quoted and move on - chum in the water only works when you go for the bait!


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## edstreet (Oct 22, 2016)

No need to delete or ignore anything. Just keep it on context as it was meant and don't read anything into it and all should be fine.   

The problem comes up that when you are in new grounds you have to be the pathfinder. That means there are no tutorials, help from others or the like. It's learn as you go and make path. 

There are those types that want to explore new grounds and those who wants others to do it and teach, instruct, others the application.


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