# Rant



## CaptG (Mar 18, 2010)

I have a few higher end pens in an upscale gift shop in a different state than I live.  The owner likes my work and buys the pens outright, them marks them up to what he thinks he can (and does) get.  Usually higher than I can get, gotta be that location thing.  Got a call this afternoon from his assistant, owner is on vacation and away for a while.  I had just sent invoice for a couple pens to replace sold items and she (assistant) wanted to know where I got off charging so much.  Caught me by surprise.  My reply, "What do you mean?"  She told me a guy was just in and wants to put his pens in the store and had one "exactly" like one I had just sent, but at a lot cheaper price.  After playing twenty questions with her it seems  MY pen in question is a Jr. Statesman fountain pen with 18k nib made in tru-stone.  His pen was Jr. Gent rollerball in same tru-stone.  His price to them  $69.00.  I tried telling her the nib on my pen was worth more than his asking price, and she says, "whats a nib?"  I tried telling her this was not apples to apples, but she just does not get it because they have the same blank and resemble each other.  And the "other penmaker" assured her they were the same pen.  Anyways, she is not going to buy my replacement pens because I am apparently charging too much.  She won't tell me how to get hold of her boss, and besides, I was informed he left her in charge.  GGRRRRR   I was polite the whole conversation, but am about to explode.  Hope I never find out who the other "penmaker" is.  Ok, rant over, thanks for listening and letting me blow off some steam.


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## witz1976 (Mar 18, 2010)

Wow that is pretty ballsy of the other pen maker AND the Assistant.  I hope you get a hold of the shop keeper when they get back.


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## Russell Eaton (Mar 18, 2010)

Sounds like she got in the line for heads and thought God said BEDS and said " I want a big one with WATER in it". Good luck and I hope it works out for you.


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## cnccutter (Mar 18, 2010)

*grrrr*

Gary there could be more to this than just an unscrupulous guy trying to cut in on your gig. this assistant may be bating the trap for you to cut your prices. I have had this happen more than once. i'd encourage you to take a deep breath wait for the owner to come back.

Erik


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## CaptG (Mar 18, 2010)

cnccutter said:


> Gary there could be more to this than just an unscrupulous guy trying to cut in on your gig. this assistant may be bating the trap for you to cut your prices. I have had this happen more than once. i'd encourage you to take a deep breath wait for the owner to come back.
> 
> Erik



Thanks for the input Erik.  I know I do charge on the high end, but I refuse to give my work away just so some one else can make a lot more than me off my work.  I will not lower my prices.  Just have to wait until whenever the owner gets back.


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## ashaw (Mar 18, 2010)

Gary
This happens a lot.  Pricing of pens is all over the place today.  When you are making a living from pen making you are factoring a lot more than just cost of kit and material.  Retailers will double the price they paid in order to turn a profit and pay the bills.   

Couple of things to educate your retailers. 

 1 do you stand by your product not just the part you made by all of it including plating.  For how long?  2.  Do you service the customer (retailer) or just sell your pen and leave.

3. Can you keep up with demand or is this just a hobby and you get around to it when you want.  

4. Remember you can charge what ever price you want even if that means losing money.

Keep in mind your are a craftsman and stand behind that price.  When the shop owner comes back sit down with him and educate him.  His assistant is just that, unless the assistants name is on the shop you need to talk to him.  She was very unprofessional the way she talk to you.  Just let off  your back.  When I do pen shows I have seen a number of hobbyist charge 25.00 of a cigar pen and my dealers are selling them for $80.00  once they are educate the hobbyist is not ask to come back.   

It sounds bad but again you are trying to make a living not just paying for the kit.  

I use a model for all of my pricing.  1st price is cost of making the pen.  2nd price is wholesale price, third price is retail.  Remember you have to pay for utilities, taxes, supplies.  The big mistake I have seeing is a guy selling to a retail outlet for price A and the retailer selling for price B then the penmaker on his web site selling for price A.  Very shortly him will be out of business.

Gary you make a great product stand behind your price.


Alan


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## CaptG (Mar 18, 2010)

ashaw said:


> Gary
> This happens a lot.  Pricing of pens is all over the place today.  When you are making a living from pen making you are factoring a lot more than just cost of kit and material.  Retailers will double the price they paid in order to turn a profit and pay the bills.
> 
> Couple of things to educate your retailers.
> ...



Hi Alan,  The store owner and I understand each other great.  He knows he can mark up the high end pens he buys from me and he is in the right place to sell them for way more than I can think possible. I am good with this because I get my money up front and am happy with my price.  He also knows I stand behind all my work 100%.  I also forgot to mention in my original post I also provide wood boxes with each pen with his store name laser engraved on the lid.


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## chriselle (Mar 18, 2010)

Wait for the owner.  Blow off the assistant.  Stick to your standard.


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## Jgrden (Mar 18, 2010)

Dang Right Alan. I have a spread sheet on which each pen has recorded: cost of instrument, cost of blank, time to construct at $10.00/hr. and then mark it up fifty percent.


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## Jgrden (Mar 18, 2010)

Gary, go get a rope and I'll find a tree. That would **** me off. That other pen maker is obviously not a IAP member. That reminds me of when I was a independent real estate loan broker. People would ask difficult questions, such as: can I purchase a home while in bankruptcy. The answer was "yes" under conditions. The person would then take this information to his/her bank and they would verify what I said and then go ahead and make the loan, cheating me out of my commission. Thank Marie Palm in Paso Robles, Ca. and one other of her friends.


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## Canedriver (Mar 18, 2010)

Playing devils advocate here.

Unsure why it is bad business or etiquette for the assistant to question an invoice. As a business owner or manger if you never do this you WILL eventually be out of business.

If she doesn't understand the difference and you could not educate her then your only recourse is the owner.

Unsure by last statement what IAP even has to do with this. Business is business and by its very nature is give and take. Is he willing to take less of a pen if it gives him a better profit? Just because he continues to sell yours at a profit doesn't mean he cant sell the other guys pens for same amount. Given the lesser cost to buy it equals greater profit for his store per pen.

Yes yours has a better nib, but i wouldn't be able to tell the difference on an impulse purchase. I am willing to bet most customers wouldn't be able to tell the difference.


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## Daniel (Mar 18, 2010)

Just tell them they are not paying for the materials, they are paying for the craftsmanship. Good Luck selling those "Other" Pens since most people looking to buy will know exactly what a nib is.


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## jlg2x (Mar 18, 2010)

Wait for the owner to return. I would want to know where the assistant gets off determining the price of a pen, when she obviously can't tell the difference between a fountain pen and a rollerball?


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## chriselle (Mar 18, 2010)

Canedriver said:


> Playing devils advocate here.
> 
> Unsure why it is bad business or etiquette for the assistant to question an invoice. As a business owner or manger if you never do this you WILL eventually be out of business.
> 
> ...




 The assistants job is to bring the situation to the owners attention.  I want to talk to the owner not some PA.

  And, I'm glad I didn't spend the big bucks for the real Mont Blanc I was eyeing the other day.  That cheap Chinese knock off I opted for looks *exactly* the same,,nib and all.  You can hardly tell it says "Mant Blank" on the quality gold center band.


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## Glenn McCullough (Mar 18, 2010)

Gary,
    I'll bet an IAP member you can trust lives near this establishment. Maybe one of them would do a drive by and investigate who is in there now and the quality of the goods. The next thing is to write a letter to the Owner,( c.c. a copy to the PA) and let him know of all the attempts you tried to make her aware of the variations and why your pen is better and let him know she didnt even know what a nib is. It is illegal for her to destroy the letter, she'll have to forward it to him. Perhaps she will reconsider after seeing it in writing.


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## snyiper (Mar 18, 2010)

The other pen maker could be a boyfriend or relative if they even exist!! Could be she found pens on Ebay. Dont assume another pen crafter has stepped on your boots it may not be that way at all...step back ...deep breath....relax......


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## JimB (Mar 18, 2010)

You need to do 2 things. 

1 - wait for the owner to return and speak with him.
2 - when you do speak with him do NOT be negative about the assistant. The owner hired her, works with her and made a decision to leave her in charge. If you are overly critical of her then you will be criticizing him as well plus no one wants to hear someone speaking negatively about one of their employees. I'm not saying you can't tell him what happened. You just need to do it with tact. It also sounds like a small business and you may be dealing with the assistant again in the future and need to be sure you do not create future problems.


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## workinforwood (Mar 19, 2010)

Ok...it was me Gary.  But I was just trying to earn enough money to go fishing! :wink::biggrin:


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## jaywood1207 (Mar 19, 2010)

I don't want to rile up a hornets nest here but what's wrong with the business trying to buy pens for resale for less money.  Everybody does this everyday in their personal lives including us trying to find the best deal on kits when we buy them and businesses are no different.  Yes you said it is lesser quality based on what she said but at the same time you also said she doesn't even understand what a nib is so do you really want to go by what she is saying?


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## Chief Hill (Mar 19, 2010)

I went to a shop where someone was selling thier pens once.  I walked out the door and did not even offer mine.  I kinda felt like I was in another dogs backyard. Even though I had better quality and better looking writing instruments then the other pen maker, I did not want to "step on his/her shoes"  It was a Moral/Ethics thing IMHO..... It honestly sounds like someone saw the pen you made.  Went out of his way to make the EXACT same thing minus the RB FP component. Then simply sell for cheaper.  I dont belive this person has the same ethics we do here.  I would be pissed as well.

Hopefully you can have a nice face to face with the owner and simply advise him about your opinions and such it would of been nice for the shop owner to say.  Sorry but I have a penmaker I buy from already.


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## glycerine (Mar 19, 2010)

Canedriver said:


> Unsure why it is bad business or etiquette for the assistant to question an invoice. As a business owner or manger if you never do this you WILL eventually be out of business.


 
If the owner did not want to purchase pens from Gary, then it would be his decision not to do so. But the owner has been bought from Gary before in the past it sounds like. If the deal has been made between Gary and the owner, it's not the assistant's place to call around asking why someone is charging what they are.



Canedriver said:


> If she doesn't understand the difference and you could not educate her then your only recourse is the owner.


 
There's no reason to educate her. The sale was to the owner, not the assistant, so his only recourse should ever be with the owner.



Canedriver said:


> Unsure by last statement what IAP even has to do with this. Business is business and by its very nature is give and take. Is he willing to take less of a pen if it gives him a better profit? Just because he continues to sell yours at a profit doesn't mean he cant sell the other guys pens for same amount. Given the lesser cost to buy it equals greater profit for his store per pen.


 
I believe he is referring to gentlemanly respect. Not referring to the owner, but the other pen maker. If someone else already has a prescence selling items in a store, it's disrespectful and ungentlemanly to try and take that spot. So far I feel that IAP members possess gentleman like behavior and show respect for one another and I think that's what he is referring to.
This isn't Wal-Mart vs. Target. "Business is business"? That's no excuse. If people conducted business with respect the way it was done in the past, I think the world would be a much better place to live in...



Canedriver said:


> Yes yours has a better nib, but i wouldn't be able to tell the difference on an impulse purchase. I am willing to bet most customers wouldn't be able to tell the difference.


 
No, to the customer, they may not be able to tell the difference, but the nib difference justifies the price difference. Just like lathe tools that are made of "chinese steel". You may not be able to see the difference, but the difference is there and that difference also drives the price.


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## glycerine (Mar 19, 2010)

Chief Hill said:


> I went to a shop where someone was selling thier pens once. I walked out the door and did not even offer mine. I kinda felt like I was in another dogs backyard. Even though I had better quality and better looking writing instruments then the other pen maker, I did not want to "step on his/her shoes" It was a Moral/Ethics thing IMHO..... It honestly sounds like someone saw the pen you made. Went out of his way to make the EXACT same thing minus the RB FP component. Then simply sell for cheaper. I dont belive this person has the same ethics we do here. I would be pissed as well.
> 
> Hopefully you can have a nice face to face with the owner and simply advise him about your opinions and such it would of been nice for the shop owner to say. Sorry but I have a penmaker I buy from already.


 
Good for you Rob.  I totally agree.


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## wolftat (Mar 19, 2010)

A little bit of power can go to someones head rather quickly sometimes. Wait for the boss and deal with them. Maybe you can work a great deal with the assistant to buy a bunch of wax coated plain wood 24k slimlines at a great price.


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## Jim15 (Mar 19, 2010)

I don't blame you, I'd be upset also.


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## David M (Mar 19, 2010)

there goes a red Ford Pinto , look there is a red Lincoln . Both are Fords must be the same quality ,I don't know there so much a like .I need help ,  I don't know what I want to get .
 The PA need teaching , not only so she will know the difference , but so when someone is looking at a true higher end pen she would be able to advise them.
Even if the other was a fp with stock nib , she need to be able to tell the difference in the quality on there merchindise. 
Look the cubic zirconia looks like a diamond ...... 
wait for the owner 
almost funny but i would be pissted


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## Mickey (Mar 19, 2010)

I'm going to say give the other pen maker the benefit of the doubt. You don't really KNOW what he told her. It is true that they are the same pen in the sense that they're both Jr Gent's and  people often hear what they want to hear. She may simply be trying to impress her boss. 
Take a deep breath and wait for the owner to return.


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## Jgrden (Mar 19, 2010)

I can't wait to get a report on how the owner treated you when they got back.


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## ROOKIETURNER (Mar 19, 2010)

We need to remember that this is a FREE market. If someone can do it cheaper, better or faster, they have earned the right to compete. If their quality is less than desirable, then it will be known, and the business will drop the line of product. If the customer service is worse than the original vendor, then the business will drop the line.
 
I am not sure why it is considered not gentlemanly to compete with each other? I am a General Contractor. I tell people how it is. If I walk into a house and another contractor is doing a crappy job, I tell the home owner. And I tell them that I can do it right, better or cheaper.
 
If I walk into a shop and they offer handcrafted pens. I am going to inspect the craftsmanship and quality and if I think that my products are better, or cheaper, I am going to put the sales cap on and sell my wares.
 
It is a little prideful and egotistical to think that just because I got my product in first, I own that spot. 
 
I said all of that to say this:
 
It would be unethical to lie your way in, as it seems is the case here.
 
I think that the PA was doing her job the way that she seemed justified. She was trying to impress the owner, and has a lot to learn about appropriate business relations.


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## Jgrden (Mar 19, 2010)

ROOKIETURNER said:


> We need to remember that this is a FREE market. If someone can do it cheaper, better or faster, they have earned the right to compete. If their quality is less than desirable, then it will be known, and the business will drop the line of product. If the customer service is worse than the original vendor, then the business will drop the line.
> 
> I am not sure why it is considered not gentlemanly to compete with each other? I am a General Contractor. I tell people how it is. If I walk into a house and another contractor is doing a crappy job, I tell the home owner. And I tell them that I can do it right, better or cheaper.
> 
> ...


To heck with proprietorship.


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## Jgrden (Mar 19, 2010)

It would have been nice if the manager would have called our IAP guy and asked if he were willing to drop the price. This would have opened the door to a dialog which would have helped both parties. This little manager had her mind made up before our IAP buddy had a chance to defend him/herself. I use to be a real estate loan officer assigned to a branch that covered are area of influence. If I caught another loan agent in my area, soliciting my brokers, there was heck to pay. If I felt or heard that someone else was offereng what I wasn't, the next step was to find out what it was  and then offer it or beat it.


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## wdcav1952 (Mar 19, 2010)

ROOKIETURNER said:


> We need to remember that this is a FREE market. If someone can do it cheaper, better or faster, they have earned the right to compete. If their quality is less than desirable, then it will be known, and the business will drop the line of product. If the customer service is worse than the original vendor, then the business will drop the line.
> 
> I am not sure why it is considered not gentlemanly to compete with each other? I am a General Contractor. I tell people how it is. If I walk into a house and another contractor is doing a crappy job, I tell the home owner. And I tell them that I can do it right, better or cheaper.
> 
> ...


 

This word doesn't even belong in the rest of your post.  I would like the think that the vast majority of my fellow penturners here on the site have higher standards than this.


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## bitshird (Mar 19, 2010)

Mudpuppie said:


> there goes a red Ford Pinto , look there is a red Lincoln . Both are Fords must be the same quality ,I don't know there so much a like .I need help ,  I don't know what I want to get .
> The PA need teaching , not only so she will know the difference , but so when someone is looking at a true higher end pen she would be able to advise them.
> Even if the other was a fp with stock nib , she need to be able to tell the difference in the quality on there merchindise.
> Look the cubic zirconia looks like a diamond ......
> ...



Some people are just too dumb to educate, the lady obviously qualified her self for this category, by shooting her mouth off concerning a product she knew virtually nothing about!


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## CaptG (Mar 19, 2010)

Hi all,  first, thank you all for reading this thread and your input.  It is all valuable to me and I am always amazed at the level of support from this family.  I had several pm's and a phone call offering support and wisdom.  Thank you all again.  The shop owner just called me.  He called the shop to find out how it was doing, just checking up, and the assistant told him about the pen deal she was getting for him.  He explained to her I had been with him for a while and he trusted my quality and knew from experience that I stand behind my work 100%.  He went on to tell me that he explained to her that in their location they catered to a wealthy class and he knows from experience they are not interested in "cheap" goods, not saying the other fellows pen was not of quality, but at a selling price that was less than the cost of the gold nib in my pens, it would not sell as well in that local.  Location, location, location, and marketing.  We both know what sells in his shop and I cater to him.  His assistant was looking out for him and that is good.  We are all on good terms and my check is in the mail.  I suppose I should have just waited it out, but it was one of those days and that phone call at the end of it was the last straw.  I needed to get it out and I thank you all for your support.  Now I am going to crack open that cold barley pop.


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## Jgrden (Mar 19, 2010)

Well I guess we are finished beating this dead horse.


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## ROOKIETURNER (Mar 19, 2010)

wdcav1952 said:


> This word doesn't even belong in the rest of your post. I would like the think that the vast majority of my fellow penturners here on the site have higher standards than this.


 
How is what I stated not ethical? Ethics is a system of moral principles. How is it immoral to compete in a FREE market?

Am I hearing this correct? No matter what, if someone already has pens in a shop, it is unethical or immoral for one to try and sell there? What if the owner or manager would carry both lines? All I am saying is that there is nothing wrong with competition.

I agreed that in this case the PA was wrong. And the other penmaker was wrong, if they stated that there was no difference but price between his pens and the original pens.

I would also agree that the orinigal vendor should be given the chance to sit down and explain the differences in his products versus the other products. 

I am in no way saying that what the invader did was right.

I also take great offense that you would suggest that this is a low standard. FREE market is what makes this country the greatest country on the planet.

And yes, the heck with proprietorship. This isn't solcialism, with only one choice on the shelf. This is a FREE market. Competition! Does any of us buy our products from different distributors? Should we limit this site to ony one vendor? Should we say that the first guy to sell blanks here should be the only guy to ever sell blanks here? Come on. That to me is a low standard. Competition keeps us honest. Competition keeps ingenuity alive. Competition keeps us on our tows. Competition keeps prices low. How is this a low standard? How is anything that I said a low standard?


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## Mickey (Mar 20, 2010)

Jgrden said:


> Well I guess we are finished beating this dead horse.



I guess not.


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## jttheclockman (Mar 20, 2010)

ROOKIETURNER said:


> How is what I stated not ethical? Ethics is a system of moral principles. How is it immoral to compete in a FREE market?
> 
> Am I hearing this correct? No matter what, if someone already has pens in a shop, it is unethical or immoral for one to try and sell there? What if the owner or manager would carry both lines? All I am saying is that there is nothing wrong with competition.
> 
> ...


 


Boy I avoided this post and was doing quite well till I read this response and there is so much in there I feel is wrong that I still better stay away. Do they have a little smilie with one biting your tounge????  Ouch.


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## PenMan1 (Mar 20, 2010)

A REAL PENMAKER (OR TURNER) WOULD NOT POACH YOUR ESTABLISHED RETAIL OUTLET. Ask the assistant to find the "Made in China" on the competitor's steel nib, then ask her to locate the 18K GOLD on your nib. Then ask her to locate your arse and to kiss it. Too many junk builders out there already. STICK TO YOUR STANDARDS. Talk to the chief, not the indian.


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## PenMan1 (Mar 20, 2010)

I can't just let this go... and it didn't happen to me. SO, this retailer is going to take up the same space with an UNKNOWN product to make LESS MONEY? 

Let's say you are selling to the "shop" for $100 and they are marking up to $150. The shop makes $50.

Let's say "brand" B is selling an "unknown" product to the shop for $75. Is the shop going to sell this pen at $112.50 (same margin) or are they going to try to take advantage of YOUR "known" repetation and try to sell it for $150. EITHER WAY, IT IS BAD BUSINESS.

The first way introduces an untested product, which takes the same amount of space and time to turn and results in LESS total profit for the store.

The second way is EXACTLY WHAT THIS CLERK SAYS YOU ARE DOING, plus it is using your tested and proven product to sell an inferior product. AGAIN, BAD BUSINESS.

Sounds to me like the "Chief" need to send his indian in charge to business school!


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## gwisher (Mar 20, 2010)

I am still fairly new to selling my items.  But I have seen some turned pens at places for less than what I am selling mine for.  Actually most of them are less than mine.  I am not saying I am charging a lot.  I charge $30 for a Euro since I am just starting out.  $33 for a Cigar.  and when I go into other outlets that sell handcrafted pens I immediatly look at the quality and their standards are far less than mine.  My wife asked me "why do you charge $30 for your Euros when this guy is only selling them for $20?"  And then I show her the quality difference.  My fit is better, the Finish is better and so on.  

I have had a few people tell me I am selling them for too much and then the next day it sells to someone else.  But yes the PA was wrong with the way she handled it.  She should have went to the owner first and then he could contact you or could have educated her on your repuation.  I hope to someday make a living selling my product but for now it is just a way for me to fund my new hobby and  get rid of the stresses of working behind the bars


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## ROOKIETURNER (Mar 20, 2010)

jttheclockman said:


> Boy I avoided this post and was doing quite well till I read this response and there is so much in there I feel is wrong that I still better stay away. Do they have a little smilie with one biting your tounge???? Ouch.


 
I don't think that this would qualify as biting your tounge...more like a cheap shot.

At least I have been honest and exlpained my position. If you feel that there was "so much" wrong with my post, at least PM me with what you felt was wrong.

I have asked several questions, in both my posts, and yet to have seen anyone answer.


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## PenMan1 (Mar 20, 2010)

My VERY BEST WORK is priceless! That is because when I make something TRUELY special, I give it as a gift to someone that is equally special to me. You would be surprised how much business I get because someone calls saying " I saw Christy's pen and it is wonderful can you make something equally wonderful for me?"

Price is never an object to those people and they take great pride in the design process. YOU GET WHAT YOUR PAY FOR----IF YOU ARE LUCKY!

The best price is rarely the best value!


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## Jgrden (Mar 20, 2010)

ROOKIETURNER said:


> I don't think that this would qualify as biting your tounge...more like a cheap shot.
> 
> At least I have been honest and exlpained my position. If you feel that there was "so much" wrong with my post, at least PM me with what you felt was wrong.
> 
> I have asked several questions, in both my posts, and yet to have seen anyone answer.


Yes, Free Market. You are already getting your way. Ford, GM, Chrysler cannot make a quality, competing product for the cost that the Japanese and now the Chinese are doing. Layoffs, closed plants, unemployment. No protectionism.


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## ROOKIETURNER (Mar 20, 2010)

Jgrden said:


> Yes, Free Market. You are already getting your way. Ford, GM, Chrysler cannot make a quality, competing product for the cost that the Japanese and now the Chinese are doing. Layoffs, closed plants, unemployment. No protectionism.


 
Chinese? What cars do they make?

I don't see the problem? Back in the 70's American cars were crap. Bad mileage, fell apart, rusted out...the Japanese made a better product. It forced the US market to improve or get out. They did, and they survived. Ford's Escort was the bestselling car in the US. More escorts have been sold than any other car in the US. They even used the frame on the Ford Windstar minivan. One of Car and Drivers safest mini vans on the street when it was made. Free market worked. Protectionism only breeds laziness and entitlement. This is the problem with our entire country. We deserve! You owe! I am entitled!

If we had protected the US Auto market, what would have pushed it to better itself? Nothing! We would be stuck with crappy cars.

I thank you for proving my point.


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## jttheclockman (Mar 20, 2010)

Rob 

PM sent.   

Hope this thread does not take on a political tone.


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## ROOKIETURNER (Mar 21, 2010)

That's all I have to say about that.


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## dogcatcher (Mar 21, 2010)

From a business point of view, anything and any place is fair game.  If the existing merchandise in a store is better than mine and I want the account I have to improve or forget it.  If you treat it as a hobby, then you will either have to do the same or you could lose out on a place regardless of how long you have had a business relationship.

I make game calls, I have to play with the big boys, Burnham Brothers, Primos and the rest of them.  If I want an account at a store I to have better merchandise and a reasonable cost or I lose out on a sale.  I see no difference in selling my calls or a pens.


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## wdcav1952 (Mar 21, 2010)

"Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and it annoys the pig.”
*Robert Heinlen*


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## Jgrden (Mar 21, 2010)

ROOKIETURNER said:


> Chinese? What cars do they make?
> 
> I don't see the problem? Back in the 70's American cars were crap. Bad mileage, fell apart, rusted out...the Japanese made a better product. It forced the US market to improve or get out. They did, and they survived. Ford's Escort was the bestselling car in the US. More escorts have been sold than any other car in the US. They even used the frame on the Ford Windstar minivan. One of Car and Drivers safest mini vans on the street when it was made. Free market worked. Protectionism only breeds laziness and entitlement. This is the problem with our entire country. We deserve! You owe! I am entitled!
> 
> ...


Well you might be right. GM is putting out some pretty sharp cars and FORD has gone high tech without bail money. Perhaps all this suffering has gotten someone off their a$$. The new Camero and Challengers are nice to look at. Oh, it *will* be the Chinese, just wait. It is the Korean's competing for our market now days. 
Since you aren't listening any longer, I can say what I want without retribution. heh, heh, :biggrin:


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## glycerine (Mar 22, 2010)

Just because something is legal does not make it ethical/moral/etc.  There are lots of business practices out there that are perfectly legal, but I would not consider ethical/moral/gentlemanly/sportsmanlike/etc.


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## Jgrden (Mar 22, 2010)

*900 Posts*

glycerine has just hit *NINE HUNDRED POSTS - CONGRATULATIONS. *


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## Jgrden (Mar 22, 2010)

glycerine said:


> Just because something is legal does not make it ethical/moral/etc.  There are lots of business practices out there that are perfectly legal, but I would not consider ethical/moral/gentlemanly/sportsmanlike/etc.


Consider the lack of moral conscience that corporations have. Profit is all they think about without regard to the human element.


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## ldb2000 (Mar 22, 2010)

The easiest way around this problem is to make a product that no one else makes . As long as you are making the same kits as everyone else then you will have problems like this . 
When it comes to retail sales , wholesale too for that matter , competition helps the consumer (lower prices) and hurts the vendors (less profits) . Very few people give a ratsa$$ about fairplay anymore and will undercut anyones prices to make the sale .


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## glycerine (Mar 22, 2010)

Jgrden said:


> glycerine has just hit *NINE HUNDRED POSTS - CONGRATULATIONS. *


 
Ha ha, thanks!


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