# Triple Start Tap & Die Group Buy 2017



## eharri446

Please *read* this post in its entirety.

First and foremost you must:

• Post to this thread and pm me if you would like to participate.

• This group buy cutoff if August 20th, 2017 in order to complete the above and fulfill the above and below.​
OVERVIEW

This buy is focused on obtaining the maximum quantity discount for our members for triple lead tap and dies as well as for the Bock and JOWO taps required to build kit less pens.​
IF YOU WANT TO PARTICIPATE.

The goal is to have everything done and ordered by August 21st, 2017. I will do my best to use USPS Small Flat Rate Box (online USA postage price of $7.15 plus insurance based on the basic cost to replace the taps and dies that you order. If you do not want to pay for the additional insurance you will have to send me a PM opting out of the insurance). International postal rates depend on country and I will figure and request the difference at mailing to be sent by PayPal.

$50 of insurance is now included with Priority Mail. YOU are responsible for any additional insurance you want.

**New IAP guideline**

Insurance will be included unless you specifically decline!

For reference:

$100 of insurance costs $2.65, 200= $3.35, 300= $4.35, 400=$5.50, 500= $6.65. Please refer to the USPS website if you need insurance above $500. The amount of insurance will be calculated by me once I receive the spreadsheet. I recommend insurance. Please remember that I am responsible for shipping your merchandise, but I cannot be held responsible for its delivery!​
For Example:

If you order 1 plug tap and die for the M14, M13, M12, M11 and one plug tap for the Bock #5 and #6 as well as the JOWO #5 and #6 the total retail cost would be: $2011.40 so your insurance would be $27.90 making you total shipping cost $35.05.

The total cost of shipping will be determined once the individual spreadsheets are received. Once that is done the total cost for your order will be sent to you via PM. Once the total cost is determine you will have to make your payment to me via PayPal by the payment deadline. Otherwise your order will not be include in the final order to the vendor.​
WAITING LIST

There is no waiting list for this group buy.​
THE SPECIFICS

This group buy is open to any member of IAP.

IF YOU DO NOT MEET THE TIMELINES, WE WILL PLACE THE ORDER WITHOUT YOU. IF YOU SENT MONEY AFTER THE DEADLINE AND THE ORDER WAS PLACED THEN YOUR MONEY WILL BE REFUNDED TO YOU. THERE WILL BE NO "WARNING" EMAILS THAT YOU ARE LATE.​
REQUIREMENTS TO PARTICIPATE

• 1. Post to this thread and PM me to get in
• 2. Must have a valid shipping address
• 3. New: In your reply in this thread you must state that you either want to "Insure for retail value" or "No additional insurance on my shipment." Additionally, on the spreadsheet, you must indicate the same.
Please indicate your NAME and IAP USERNAME on all payments and correspondence. 

I will give you my email address to return the spreadsheet too. Please note, download the spreadsheet at the bottom of this thread.

In the Excel document, there is a block at the top of the spreadsheets. It requires:

Your IAP screen name
Your “real” name
Your email address
Your mailing address
Whether or not you want insurance (Yes/No)
The sheet automatically calculates the PayPal fee – zero it out if using “Friends and Family”​
If these fields are not filled out accurately, the spreadsheet will be returned to you!​DEADLINES

• Spreadsheet must be returned by August 10th, 2017 (Midnight – CST)
• PayPal (only payment option) by August 20th, 2017 (Midnight – CST)​
PAYMENTS - PAYPAL ONLY

I will be placing the order by Monday, Aug 21st, 2017. If you have not made the PayPal payment by the deadline scheduled above you will be removed from the buy. I will confirm your total via PM as well as my PayPal information once I receive your order back.

Several members and organizers have asked PayPal regarding the use of "Friends and Family" payment option. And it is OK in their eyes and has been each time they were contacted. The "Friends and Family" payment method has no fees for the recipient, thus saving you money. If you choose NOT to use the send money to Friends and Family option, the spreadsheet has already added 4% PayPal goods and services fee. If you use F&F option - follow the guide on the spreadsheet and zero out the PayPal fee.

I will issue PayPal refunds for any over payments. I will try to get as close to even as possible – anything less than $1.00 will not be refunded.​
SHIPPING



Availability

Shipping will be done once all of the merchandise for the order is received. According to the vendor the merchandise will be available based on the : taps in 3-5 weeks and the dies in 4 – 6 weeks depending on quantity ordered​
USA

Will be defaulted to published USPS small Flat Rate Box for online postage price of $7.15. It will include tracking and delivery confirmation.​
International

Will be determined once you submit your spreadsheet, and the cost will be updated on your spreadsheet. Once that is updated you will be notified via PM of the final cost of your order. It will include tracking and delivery confirmation.​
SHIPPING INSURANCE

I do require that you pay for insurance, unless you specifically chose to opt out of the additional insurance. *I cannot and will not* be responsible for what happens to your order after it leaves my control. You will receive confirmation of shipping, but once it has left my hands I am not responsible for it. 

If you desire no additional insurance then you must notify me via PM and indicate that you do not want additional insurance on the spreadsheet. 

I highly recommend that you do not opt out of the additional insurance because of the cost to replace your order at the retail cost per item.​
ITEMS AVAILABLE

The items available for ordering will be listed on the spreadsheet and all you have to do is enter the quantity for each tap and/or die that you wish to purchase.

Only items listed on the spreadsheet will be included in the buy, no other items will be added.​
BACK ORDERED ITEMS

There will be NO back orders.​
CLOSEOUT ITEMS

There will be NO CLOSEOUT ORDERS.​
MORE INFORMATION

The attached spreadsheet for the Triple Start Threads Group Buy will calculate your total cost for order based on the results of the thread under the Group Buy Research forum.

I have also rounded up the PayPal fee to 4.0% (only applicable if you’re NOT using the Friends and Family option in PayPal). Your PayPal fee may be less than what you pay, and this difference will be refunded. Once all payments are received and account settled to my satisfaction, I will issue PayPal refunds for any over payments. I’ll try to get as close to even as possible – anything less than $1.00 will not be refunded.

All refunds or settlements will be in the form of a check included in your order.

Please complete your order within the spreadsheet. Before you return the spreadsheet to me by email – change the excel file name as follows:

RealFirstName_RealLastName_TSTD_2017_Group_Final.xls​
I hope these terms are acceptable to everyone, and please feel free to PM me with any questions or concerns.

NOTE: If anyone does not have access to Microsoft Excel, please contact me and I will send you and alternate means of entering your order.​


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## dthayer

Thank you for doing this! I have been wanting to get into kitless for a while now and these seem like great prices. Would you be able and willing to tell the ignorant among us (me!) what we need at a minimum from this offering to get started?


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## leehljp

Hank Lee aka leehljp - Posting to this thread. I am about to send the spreadsheet with the email after I post this and PM you directly.

size 11 tap and die (non bottoming).

PLEASE INSURE for FULL retail value.

*SPREADSHEET SENT via email*

"The sheet automatically calculates the PayPal fee – zero it out if using “Friends and Family”"
-> I don't order items here often; not sure what this means, what its purpose is or how to use it. I have just purchased things straight through PayPal. So how does this affect me?

(NOTE on SHIPPING: ON occasion, my address shows up as not valid - with a few companies. It IS valid. I live in a small town and everything USPS goes through the post office BOX. They do not deliver to the street. AND They do not put mail in my box unless it has a box NUMBER on it. Street address by itself will not work; it will get sent back to the sender.)


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## Racer3770

Thanks for putting this together!
I have filled out the spreadsheet for a 12 x 0.8 plug tap and die. Please insure for full retail value.

Thanks again!
James Smith


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## Jontello

Thanks. I just sent you the spreadsheet with my order. Yes to the insurance. 

Jon tello 


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## edstreet

What's the dimensions on the Taps


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## stuckinohio

Spreadsheet sent. Please insure for retail cost.

Thank you for doing this. We all appreciate it!


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## eharri446

edstreet

we have pricing for M14, M13, M12, M11 triple lead plug, bottoming taps and dies.

Also we have pricing for Bock #5 and 6, and JOWO #5 and 6 plug and bottoming dies.

You can see the price breakdowns for each one in the thread under Group Buy Research.


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## eharri446

Just so that everyone is aware of where these taps and dies are coming from:

The company is call e-Taps.com and is out of Palm Beach, Florida. The dies are made either in Europe or in the United States.


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## duncsuss

Elwin:

I'd like 1 x Bock #6 plug tap.

The price is less than $50, no additional insurance beyond the automatic $50 coverage with a SFRB.

I'll pay Friends & Family.

Thanks for all your effort organizing this group buy.

Duncan Suss
(IAP username: duncsuss)


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## edstreet

Doesn't e-taps get their stuff from Pakistan?


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## More4dan

edstreet said:


> Doesn't e-taps get their stuff from Pakistan?





Their website says the are made in Warsaw, Poland. 


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## edstreet

Yea. I was going from memory.


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## More4dan

edstreet said:


> Yea. I was going from memory.





I can do that less and less theses days Ed. 


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## roned23

Spreadsheet is complete. Yes to the insurance.

Thank you.


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## cajunwoodsman1

Add me to participation. Spreadsheet is complete. Yes to the insurance.


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## jonathan_vest

Jonathan B. Vest, yes to the insurance, about to update the spreadsheet.


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## napagibb

working on the spreadsheet and yes to the insurance


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## keithbyrd

working on the spredsheet and yes to insurance and thank you


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## Sprung

PM sent
Insure for retail value
Matthew Sprunger


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## napagibb

spreadsheet sent


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## WhiskeyRain

PM sent. 

Thanks for lining this up!
Matt


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## TomG737

PM Sent.

Please insure for full retail value.

Spreadsheet updated and ready to go,

Thank you sincerely for putting this together!!

Tom Gauntt


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## KCW

I'm in with insurance.  PM sent.


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## Burb

I'll be sending my spreadsheet shortly. 

Please insure for for retail value. 

Please let know if you need anything else. Thank you.


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## More4dan

I am ordering the following:
11mm Plug Tap 
13mm Plug Tap
11mm Die
13mm Die
#5 Bock Plug Tap
#6 Bock Plug Tap
#5 JOWO Plug Tap
#6 JOWO Plug Tap
"Insure for retail value"
PM Sent, waiting for your email to send you the spreadsheet.

Thanks for putting this order together.

Danny Clarke


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## leehljp

More4dan said:


> I am ordering the following:
> 11mm Plug Tap
> 13mm Plug Tap
> 11mm Die
> 13mm Die
> #5 Bock Plug Tap
> #6 Bock Plug Tap
> #5 JOWO Plug Tap
> #6 JOWO Plug Tap
> "Insure for retail value"
> PM Sent, waiting for your email to send you the spreadsheet.
> 
> Thanks for putting this order together.
> 
> Danny Clarke



Danny, did you get a PM from him? The PM has his email address in it. IF you did get a PM, the email address should be there.

I missed that the first time.


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## Spiderman

I'm in for:
M12 x .08 Plug Tap
M12 x .08 Die
Bock #5 Plug Tap
Bock #6 Plug Tap

Yes to insurance on the retail value

I will send in the spread sheet and PM shortly.

Thanks for doing this!!

Mike


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## bjbear76

Spreadsheet sent.

Include insurance for full value.


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## Burb

Quick question on the Dies, as I don't recall reading it. Are they 1" or 1.5"? I want to ensure they will fit in the NeilsNiche Die Holder properly. Thanks.


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## stuckinohio

Burb said:


> Quick question on the Dies, as I don't recall reading it. Are they 1" or 1.5"? I want to ensure they will fit in the NeilsNiche Die Holder properly. Thanks.



The m14 are 1.5" not sure about the m13, as I don't have one yet, but the m12 and lower are 1 .


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## magpens

Hi Elwin,

I sent you the completed worksheet today.

My order is:

12mm x 0.8 Triple Start Plug Tap
12mm x 0.8 Triple Start Bottom Tap
12mm x 0.8 Triple Start Die 

#5 Bock 6.4mm x 0.6 Plug Tap
#6 Bock 7.9mm x 0.6 Plug Tap
#6 JOWO 7.4mm x 0.6 Plug Tap

Total Value incl ins, PP fee, & ship to Canada = $275.22 (est.)

Insure for retail value $300 = $4.35 to Canada (included above)

If you require any further info please let me know. 

Thank you very much for putting this together, Elwin.


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## Skeleton2014

PM sent
Insure for retail value please. 
Also, will add M11/M13 plug, bottom taps and dies to my previous requests in the research posts. So, ordering one of everything... figure it's been too long between GB's so just decided to go for it!
Jeff


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## SteveG

I am Steve Guzy (IAP: SteveG)
This is my confirmation for participation in the Tap/Die 2017 GB.
SS & PM are sent.
I will pay via F & F mode.
Insurance: No additional insurance on my shipment.

Aloha!


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## Cmiles1985

I don't know that I posted in the thread, but I sent you the spreadsheet. Thanks for hosting this buy Elwin!


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## romoshka

Spreadsheet compete.  PM sent.  Awaiting an email address to forward spreadsheet.  This is great - thank you so much.


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## More4dan

romoshka said:


> Spreadsheet compete.  PM sent.  Awaiting an email address to forward spreadsheet.  This is great - thank you so much.





He sent a PM on the 28th with the email address when he announced the official group buy. Check your inbox to see if you got it already. I missed it the first time I read it. 

Danny


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## AWLogue

Aaron Logue
1x m12 triple start DIE ONLY
No additional insurance on my shipment


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## eharri446

Just an update as to where we are at, we had 48 people indicate that they would like to participate when we did the initial research. We have had 2 people drop out and 3 people join in.

At this point, we have had 22 people respond with their spreadsheets and still have 25 who have not responded.


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## leehljp

eharri446 said:


> Just an update as to where we are at, we had 48 people indicate that they would like to participate when we did the initial research. We have had 2 people drop out and 3 people join in.
> 
> At this point, we have had 22 people respond with their spreadsheets and still have 25 who have not responded.



Elwin,

This is quite common, unfortunately. Some people see this and decide they want in and comment on it. But 30% to 40% of the respondents only check in once a week or if the thread is beyond the first page, they don't see it. There will be people wanting to sign up in 6 weeks, never looking at the dates. 

I have watched this inclination over several years. It is not just with you. There will be a 1 or 2 with legitimate reasons for missing for a week or two or three. Sometimes, the only answer is emailing these who did not respond to the PM.

This hurts those who are serious on purchasing group buys at a discount.


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## eharri446

Hank, I have sent a PM to those who indicated that they wanted to be in and have not replied.


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## darrin1200

Why is there such a mad rush for response. The instructions indicate that it does not close until the 20th. Personally, I am trying to work out If I can buy a couple of extra sets.


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## More4dan

I think folks are really excited about the purchase and are nervous about it actually happening. Patience is a virtue, I'll keep reminding myself till the 20th.  

Danny


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## stuckinohio

I thought it closes on the 10th so he can figure out prices. The moon by is due by the 20th. But of course I could be wrong!


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## More4dan

Yep, Spreadsheets due by Aug 10th with PayPal payment by Aug 20th. The order goes out the 21st. Don't miss out folks, get your info in soon!!!


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## eharri446

As has been stated, the prices of the taps and dies are dependent on how many of each that we order. The original research showed the anticipated prices for each item and those were the prices that were on the spreadsheet. However, until the final count is in, the current prices for some of the items are no where near those from the research.

I will place the order for those prices if that is what the group wants, however, it is all of our best interest that the prices be as low as possible.

Once I have determined the final prices I will update this post and we can, as a group, decide to go forward or cancel the buy.


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## PatrickR

I'm in. I sent you a spreadsheet Elwin. Hopefully there are a lot of late participants.


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## GregMuller

*placing order*

Would like to order m14 plug tap and m14 die. No add insurance. Will pay friends and family. What email address do i send the spread sheet to.


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## GSteer

Hey Elwin,

Spreadsheet completed and emailed over to you. As per the instructions I'm posting here with this info too:

Insure for retail value.

Cheers, Greg Steer.


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## woodcraftingPatriot

Just submitted my spreadsheet.  Can't wait to get them!


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## Chiller Killer

*Hello everybody*

I was directed here from the facebook page , maybe i can tag along and help the numbers some . 
Ive been told i need 
1-m12x.8 plug
1-m12x.8 die 
1-jowo 5
1-Jowo 6


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## eharri446

Only three days to go to get your order in. Out of 49 members who indicated that they wanted to participate, only 31 have sent in their spreadsheets.

Here is where we are at price wise at the current time:


View in Gallery


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## chet0213

I have emailed my spreadsheet to get the 11, 12, 13mm plug taps, dies, and a Bock #5 plug tap.  And yes to the insurance.


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## napagibb

Elwin 
Is the price for the M14x.8 plug tap correct?
Thanks


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## eharri446

napagibb,

It is correct as of this time. That is why I am trying to get everyone to submit the spreadsheets so that I can post a final price that will reflect the original research price.

After it is said and done, if the prices that we come up with are not acceptable, then we can always cancel the group buy. However, since I know that you can order some of these from: 

http://www.beaufortink.co.uk/3leadtapsanddies.html

Here is the cost for a plug tap and die:

M11X.8  - 204.43
M12X.8  - 217.41
M14X.8  - 256.35

We are currently at the cost:

M11X.8  - 107.10
M12X.8  - 111.20
M13X.8  - 110.40
M14X.8  - 151.50

Even if we purchase at the current cost we would be saving:

M11X.8  - 204.43 - 107.10 = 97.33
M12X.8  - 217.41 - 111.20 = 106.21
M14X.8  - 256.35 - 151.50 = 104.85

So no matter what happens we can still save significant money by going forward. The more members who order, the lower the costs will become.


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## SnazzyPenz

*Inlude me in this*

Thanks for putting this together. I've been looking to get some trip starts for a while now. Please include me in this buy.


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## darrin1200

Email and form sent.
I will take:
M12 plug tap
M12 die
Bock #6 plug tap

Yes to Friends & Family
Yes to insurance.

Thanks for organizing this.


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## Sprung

napagibb said:


> Elwin
> Is the price for the M14x.8 plug tap correct?
> Thanks



I have the same question, referring back to the original price listing, where it lists for the 14mm plug: 12-23 pc $55.00 each. While the recent list posted says $83.25.

Same thing for the 12mm plug: 24 pc ++ $45.00 each. While the recent list you posted says $49.20.

Same for the respective die prices - prices shifted by one quantity level pricing. (Didn't look beyond the M14 and M12 plug tap and die prices for comparison.)


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## duncsuss

Sprung said:


> I have the same question, referring back to the original price listing, where it lists for the 14mm plug: 12-23 pc $55.00 each. While the recent list posted says $83.25.



Matt, that's because the original you linked to is based on the people who *said* they were interested during the research phase.

The current price is based on the people who have actually filled out the spreadsheet and emailed it to Elwin (as in *actually committing to the order*.)


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## Sprung

duncsuss said:


> Sprung said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have the same question, referring back to the original price listing, where it lists for the 14mm plug: 12-23 pc $55.00 each. While the recent list posted says $83.25.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Matt, that's because the original you linked to is based on the people who *said* they were interested during the research phase.
> 
> The current price is based on the people who have actually filled out the spreadsheet and emailed it to Elwin (as in *actually committing to the order*.)
Click to expand...


Ahh, but there are 16 people, according to the image a few posts up, who have committed to buying a 14mm plug tap, which would put it in the 12 to 23 piece range, with a price given of $55/piece for the 12 to 23 piece price range. The $83.25 currently listed alongside the quantity of 16 committed is the 6 to 11 piece price range.


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## eharri446

I owe everyone an apology. In hurrying to get the latest pricing updated, I did not change the quantities from my base chart.

Here are the latest pricing's after several members have turned in their spreadsheets:


View in Gallery

 As you can see, I have updated the quantities on all of the items, and the pricing's where they changed, for example the M14X.8 tap went from 83.25 to 55, this was caused by one member ordering that tap. There was a corresponding change to the M14X.8 die dropping to the next lower price.

It is hoped that as more members turn in their spreadsheets, the prices will continue to drop closer to what was in the research prices. 

I realize that some may want to drop the bottoming taps that they ordered, however, please wait until the end and then we can adjust what we want to include on the order as a group.

Once, again thank you for your participation, and for helping me by catching any mistakes before the become major issues.

AS many have already gathered, this is my first time  running a group buy, and there is a fairly steep learning curve in doing one, but with everyone's help, we will have a successful buy. Then we will have to have a contest to see who can make the snazziest kit less pen.


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## Mintman

Elwin,

Im in for m12 plug, bottoming tap and die and m14 plug tap and die.

Marc

Sent from my SM-T580 using Tapatalk


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## eharri446

Mintman,

Please download a copy of the spreadsheet on the first post in the thread and fill in out and send it to me at elwinharrison@yahoo.com.


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## TomG737

Elwin, is there a way to know for sure that our emailed spreadsheets were received?


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## eharri446

I will let everyone that has submitted a spreadsheet, know that I have received them. However, at this time I have no record of receiving yours.


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## drise

Elwin

I am in for a m14 plug tap and die, and an m12 plug tap and die. Insure for retail. Spreadsheet will be sent in a minute.

Thanks for doing this group buy

Dave


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## mrobertson

Thanks for organizing this!

I'm interested in purchasing 1 of each:

M12 X .08 Plug Tap
M12 X .08 Bottoming Tap
M11 X .08 Plug Tap
M11 X .08 Bottoming Tap
M12 X .08 Die
M11 X .08 Die
Jowo #5 Plug Tap
Jowo #5 Bottoming Tap
Jowo #6 Plug Tap
Jowo #6 Bottoming Tap

I'm interested in purchasing up $500 in insurance.

Thanks
Ray


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## Tom Walter

*Triple Start Tap &amp; Die Group Buy 2017*

Did you get my spreadsheet?  I am trying to order all the nib taps (3) except the Jowo #6. Thanks. 


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## eharri446

Tom,

Do you want the plug or the bottoming taps. I am assuming that you want the Bock # and #6 and the JOWO #5. I just do not know which type of tap.


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## eharri446

Today is the last day to submit your spreadsheet for the group buy if you have not already done so.

Please submit it to elwinharrison@yahoo.com.


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## RobS

Getting down to the wire, who has not turned in there form to Elwin?

Thank you Elwin for the hard work and due diligence!!!!

Keep turning
RobS


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## eharri446

The current quantities for the various bottoming taps are:

M14 - 7, M13 - 6, M11 - 8, Bock #5 - 5 #6 - 6, Jowo #5 - 7 #6 - 9.

If we get to 12 of the M14, M13, & M11 then we will be at the next to the last price point.

If we get to 10 on the nib taps, then we will be at the lowest price point.

Everything else is at the next to the last price point currently, the M12 plug and die need 2 more to be order to get the lowest price point.


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## Warren501

I would like in on this Group Purchase and insured for replacement cost.

PM sent.


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## Tom Walter

eharri446 said:


> Tom,
> 
> Do you want the plug or the bottoming taps. I am assuming that you want the Bock # and #6 and the JOWO #5. I just do not know which type of tap.





All plug taps please. I would like all appropriate insurance as well. Thank you. 



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## Tom Walter

*Triple Start Tap &amp; Die Group Buy 2017*



eharri446 said:


> Tom,
> 
> Do you want the plug or the bottoming taps. I am assuming that you want the Bock # and #6 and the JOWO #5. I just do not know which type of tap.





Yes. Alll plug taps please. Thanks. 


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## Grampy122

*Group Buy*

I would like five (5) taps. .
I would like the following:
1 M13.0 x 0.8  triple start tap Plug.
1 M7.9 x 0.6  single start tap Plug
1 M7.9 x 0.6  single start tap Bottom
1 M6.4 x 0.6 single start tap Plug
1 M6.4 x 0.6 single start tap Bottom

   Thank you for doing the Group Buy
                      Gordie


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## Skeleton2014

I know there have been some comments about canceling some of the bottoming taps due to low interest. Elwin, would you PM me before that happens. I have a couple of proposals to help the bottoming tap numbers improve. I realized that if we DON'T get bottoming taps then we will be limiting further what we can do with our "kitless" tools. For example, it was mentioned anyone wanting to turn a "demonstrator" would want the bottoming taps to make it look right.
I've withheld making comments with regard to this group buy. The last successful GB for taps/dies was Feb 2016. I think there were a couple of interests in group buys but, they fell through and certainly weren't as extensive as this GB. I predict it'll be a couple of years before another one. I'd like to encourage those who responded to the research posts, to step up to the plate now and get your order in. Similarly, to anyone contemplating going kitless, it may be a couple of years before another group buy of this size takes place. So, if you are on the fence, I would encourage you folks to order as much as you can possibly afford. I'll get off my soapbox now. 
Jeff



eharri446 said:


> The current quantities for the various bottoming taps are:
> 
> M14 - 7, M13 - 6, M11 - 8, Bock #5 - 5 #6 - 6, Jowo #5 - 7 #6 - 9.
> 
> If we get to 12 of the M14, M13, & M11 then we will be at the next to the last price point.
> 
> If we get to 10 on the nib taps, then we will be at the lowest price point.
> 
> Everything else is at the next to the last price point currently, the M12 plug and die need 2 more to be order to get the lowest price point.


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## RobS

Skeleton2014 said:


> I know there have been some comments about canceling some of the bottoming taps due to low interest. Elwin, would you PM me before that happens. I have a couple of proposals to help the bottoming tap numbers improve. I realized that if we DON'T get bottoming taps then we will be limiting further what we can do with our "kitless" tools. For example, it was mentioned anyone wanting to turn a "demonstrator" would want the bottoming taps to make it look right.
> I've withheld making comments with regard to this group buy. The last successful GB for taps/dies was Feb 2016. I think there were a couple of interests in group buys but, they fell through and certainly weren't as extensive as this GB. I predict it'll be a couple of years before another one. I'd like to encourage those who responded to the research posts, to step up to the plate now and get your order in. Similarly, to anyone contemplating going kitless, it may be a couple of years before another group buy of this size takes place. So, if you are on the fence, I would encourage you folks to order as much as you can possibly afford. I'll get off my soapbox now.
> Jeff
> 
> I believe, we are moving forward with the bottoming taps regardless.  It's more of motivating those to keep their word to help with pricing.  You are 100% correct, this is an awesome opportunity for savings, not to mention no one else has the bottoming triple taps available.  So if we don't get them here, there is no where else to go.
> 
> Thanks for the hard work


----------



## eharri446

Okay, here is what it would take to get the triple lead bottoming taps to the next to the lowest price point:

M14 needs 5 to get to the $55.00 cost, the difference to the lowest price is $7.00. M13 needs 5 to get to $48.90, the difference to the lowest price is $6.90. M11 needs 3 to get to $49.70, the difference to the lowest price is $4.70.

The nib taps are a little farther apart:

The Bock #5 needs 4 to get to the lowest price of $23.80. The Bock #6 needs 3 to get to the lowest price of $21.60. The JOWO #5 need 4 to get to the lowest price of $26.60. The JOWO #6 needs 2 to get to the lowest price of $25.30. 

I am not too concerned about the nib taps, as they should work okay with just a plug tap.

Also, I just discovered the the tap size for the JOWO #6 was incorrect. It should have been M7.5 X .5 and I had it as M7.4 X .5. Someone else provided me that size and I did not check it at the time.

I just got a new quote from the vendor and all of the prices are staying the same and the deadline has move to the middle of next month before the quote will expire. There was some concern on the part of the vendor that the prices might have changed due to the position of the dollar to the European monies. However, that was not a problem.

At this point we are going to be purchasing over 275 items.

Here is how the items break down:

Triple Lead Taps:  112
Triple Lead Dies:    73
Nib Taps:               90

I am hoping to be able to determine the shipping cost from the vendor to me over the week end.


----------



## GSteer

Elwin, sounds like we might have a bit of time leeway to get the numbers up there then!

Could you clarify your sources on the thread sizes for the Jowo #6 please as these two sources do indicate that it is a 7.4x0.5, this was my understanding:

Tap/Dies-M7.4 & M7.5
http://www.fpnibs.com/847-thickbox_default/steel-nib-unit-size-6-polished.jpg from source page http://www.fpnibs.com/en/jowo-steel-nibs/281-steel-nib-unit-size-6-polished.html#/


----------



## keithbyrd

"I just got a new quote from the vendor and all of the prices are staying the same and the deadline has move to the middle of next month before the quote will expire. There was some concern on the part of the vendor that the prices might have changed due to the position of the dollar to the European monies. However, that was not a problem."

Does this give time to allow a couple more week to get people to participate?


----------



## Brian G

I hemmed and hawed.  I'm in for:

12mm plug tap and die
Jowo #5 and #6 plug tap
Yes to insurance

PM sent
Spreadsheet sent

If we're close to making the minimum on other plug taps and dies, then I might be coaxed into adding to my order.


----------



## eharri446

I not sure about a couple of more weeks, however, if someone wants in over the next several days I will be a nice guy and let them join in.


----------



## eharri446

GSteer,

Here is where I got my information from: Taps for Jowo - FPnibs.com


----------



## EveRyE1vA

Hi Elwin,

I am in for M12x.08 plug tap and M12x.08 die.

I am willing to pay for insurance,

I'll pay Friends & Family.

Thanks for all your effort organizing this group buy.


----------



## GSteer

eharri446 said:


> GSteer,
> 
> Here is where I got my information from: Taps for Jowo - FPnibs.com



I'd spotted that myself Elwin, but the nib diagrams from fpnibs.com indicate the actual threading is 7.4x0.5 (which have been there longer than the taps), and silverpenparts have been selling the 7.4x0.5 tap for a lot longer, the one on fpnibs.com has only appeared recently. I'd suggest this needs checking with Jowo themselves before setting the order in stone?

There was a discussion thread, that I cannot locate atm, that indicates a 7.5x0.5 would work 'ok' in lieu of a 7.4x0.5, but would be fractionally looser. In fact a quick scan shows forum threads discussing both sizes so I'm as confused as the next person, just want to ensure we're getting the correct and accurate one.


----------



## mredburn

Its actually 7.4 but 7.5 will work, the difference in diameter is .0039 or about 4 thou. I suspect that 7.5 is easily available for stocking and cheaper for them.  Remember your not having to put a torque wrench on it to seat it properly. It also helps when the feeds are out of round as they often are.  It also helps to drill and tap a piece of brass and use it as a chasing die running it back and forth over the threads to clean them up.


----------



## GSteer

mredburn said:


> Its actually 7.4 but 7.5 will work, the difference in diameter is .0039 or about 4 thou. I suspect that 7.5 is easily available for stocking and cheaper for them.  Remember your not having to put a torque wrench on it to seat it properly. It also helps when the feeds are out of round as they often are.  It also helps to drill and tap a piece of brass and use it as a chasing die running it back and forth over the threads to clean them up.



Thanks for popping over here Michael, much appreciated.


----------



## eharri446

I am glad that the M7.5 X .5 will work, as I would hate to have to go back to the vendor and try to get it changed.

It was confusing enough working with them to get it changed the first time.


----------



## Burb

Any chance of getting an update showing the current #'s & prices? If we are only 1 away of a few things, I might be willing to get something if it throws it to the next lower price point. Thanks.


----------



## eharri446

Here is the latest prices.


View in Gallery

In a previous post I showed what would be required to get to the next to the last price point and what the difference was between that one and the lowest price.


----------



## stuckinohio

Thank you again for all your work on this. We are all appreciative!


----------



## drise

Elwin

Is it too late to add a Jowo #6 plug tap to my order?

Thanks again for all your work on this GB
Dave


----------



## Spiderman

Okay, I’m jumping into the deepend…

Please add the Jowo #5 Plug tap and the Jowo #6 Plug tap to my order, if you wouldn’t mind.

I am sending you my updated spreadsheet to the email address.

Thanks again
Mike


----------



## Burb

I went back and couldn't find where it was answered or posted. 

What diameter are these dies? I was told they need to either be 1" or 1.5" to work correctly with the die holders. I just wanted to verify. Thanks.


----------



## duncsuss

Elwin - just emailed and will PM with request for extra items. Thanks!


----------



## eharri446

Burb they are 1 inch diameter dies.


----------



## stuckinohio

eharri446 said:


> Burb they are 1 inch diameter dies.



I have a 14mm triple start die and it is 1.5"
Not sure about the 13mm triple start. I don't know if it's 1 or 1.5.
The 12mm and under are 1"


----------



## Burb

eharri446 said:


> Burb they are 1 inch diameter dies.



Thank you sir!! I didn't want to assume they were without asking.


----------



## Burb

stuckinohio said:


> eharri446 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Burb they are 1 inch diameter dies.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have a 14mm triple start die and it is 1.5"
> Not sure about the 13mm triple start. I don't know if it's 1 or 1.5.
> The 12mm and under are 1"
Click to expand...


As long a they are 1" pr 1.5" I'm okay. I was told to verify any foreign made dies as they aren't always those sizes.


----------



## stuckinohio

Burb said:


> stuckinohio said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> eharri446 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Burb they are 1 inch diameter dies.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have a 14mm triple start die and it is 1.5"
> Not sure about the 13mm triple start. I don't know if it's 1 or 1.5.
> The 12mm and under are 1"
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> As long a they are 1" pr 1.5" I'm okay. I was told to verify any foreign made dies as they aren't always those sizes.
Click to expand...


I see. Just wanted to make sure you know some will be large!


----------



## stuckinohio

Personally I hope all the taps are center drilled on the non-tap end to accept a tap guide. It's super annoying when they aren't! At least to me anyways...


----------



## eharri446

After doing more research, it appears that the M11 and 12 are 1 inch, and the M13 and 14 may be 1 1/2 inch diameter.

Not sure, and will not know until Monday when I can ask about the die sizes and the tap guide hole.


----------



## Grampy122

*Die Size*

I have all the die from previous group buys and the M14 is 1.5" and the rest are 1.0".

There is a hole in the non threading end for a tap follower.

Anyone who is even thinking about a bottom tap (so on a translucent pen top the threads look nice and clean) should really think about jumping in, because these group buys do not come around that often and it would help bring the price down for everyone.


----------



## Burb

Grampy122 said:


> Anyone who is even thinking about a bottom tap (so on a translucent pen top the threads look nice and clean) should really think about jumping in, because these group buys do not come around that often and it would help bring the price down for everyone.



I would love to get the bottoming taps as well, but since I need virtually everything, I can't afford it all. Looks like I will just get the plug taps/dies that I'm wanting, along with the Bock/JOWO dies.


----------



## eharri446

We only need 5 more people for the M13 to get the bottoming tap down to $48.90 and 1 more to get the M11 bottoming tap down to $49.70.


----------



## Tom Walter

stuckinohio said:


> Personally I hope all the taps are center drilled on the non-tap end to accept a tap guide. It's super annoying when they aren't! At least to me anyways...





I believe the hole or crown is necessary to manufacture the taps. This company is in my back yard. They are good people and good products. 


Sent from my iPhone using Penturners.org mobile app


----------



## stuckinohio

Tom Walter said:


> stuckinohio said:
> 
> 
> 
> Personally I hope all the taps are center drilled on the non-tap end to accept a tap guide. It's super annoying when they aren't! At least to me anyways...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I believe the hole or crown is necessary to manufacture the taps. This company is in my back yard. They are good people and good products.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Penturners.org mobile app
Click to expand...


I hope so. Several of my tapco taps are not center drilled. The 7.5 x .5, both #5 Bock and #5 Jowo taps as well as my 10mm triple start plug tap.


----------



## beck3906

Please add a Jowo #6 and a Bock #6 bottoming tap to my order.  Maybe we're headed to the next lower cost.


----------



## eharri446

Lewis, do those taps that are not center drilled have a 60 degree point on the non-tapping end? If do, then you might need to flip your tap follower inner shaft end for end. I did some research and most of them have a point on one end with a dimple or hole on the other end.


----------



## stuckinohio

eharri446 said:


> Lewis, do those taps that are not center drilled have a 60 degree point on the non-tapping end? If do, then you might need to flip your tap follower inner shaft end for end. I did some research and most of them have a point on one end with a dimple or hole on the other end.



They are slightly convex. I flipped the shaft of the spring loaded tap guide to the cupped end, but it will not keep the tap in line. The tap merely slips off.


----------



## Sprung

I would be in for adding the M12 bottoming tap to my order.

Should I go ahead and resubmit my form?


----------



## eharri446

Sprung, I will update your order and spreadsheet for you.


----------



## eharri446

Event though the deadline was the 10th to get orders submitted, I will still accept orders from those who wish to join the group buy. I am able to do this because the vendor gave us an extension on the quote to 9/15/2017.


----------



## Chiller Killer

eharri446 said:


> Event though the deadline was the 10th to get orders submitted, I will still accept orders from those who wish to join the group buy. I am able to do this because the vendor gave us an extension on the quote to 9/15/2017.



Can you confirm mine went through, i was having trouble with the spreadsheet. I dont want to miss it . Thank you

Also , when do we pay>?


----------



## eharri446

Chiller Killer, yes I got your spreadsheet.

As for when do you pay, I will try to get the spreadsheets updated and back out by next Friday. That way those who might want to join in will have a chance and I will have the time to get the final costs together and update the spreadsheets.

Just to try and give everyone an idea of what is involved, we currently have 45 members participating in the buy. I know of one or two that we may lose and there may be more that join so there is a lot of work to be done to get the spreadsheets updated and then emailed back out to everyone.


----------



## Sprung

eharri446 said:


> Sprung, I will update your order and spreadsheet for you.



Thank you!



eharri446 said:


> We only need 5 more people for the M13 to get the bottoming tap down to $48.90 and 1 more to get the M11 bottoming tap down to $49.70.



If - and only if - there are enough others who decide to go with or add on a M13 bottoming tap, I would be in for one of those too if we get to the 12+ pricing. (I already own a M13 plug tap and die.)


----------



## eldee

Elwin,
I'm glad to see the extension. I would like the following:
 12mm Plug Tap
 12mm Die
 #5 Bock Plug Tap
 #6 JOWO Plug Tap

 No additional insurance
 I have also sent a PM.

Thanks!


----------



## napagibb

Elwin

As it appears that the bottoming taps are dropping into the lower price 
range I would like to add the 11mm and 12mm. If you get enough for the 13mm to drop I would like to add it also.
Thanks 
Steve


----------



## Chiller Killer

eharri446 said:


> Chiller Killer, yes I got your spreadsheet.
> 
> As for when do you pay, I will try to get the spreadsheets updated and back out by next Friday. That way those who might want to join in will have a chance and I will have the time to get the final costs together and update the spreadsheets.
> 
> Just to try and give everyone an idea of what is involved, we currently have 45 members participating in the buy. I know of one or two that we may lose and there may be more that join so there is a lot of work to be done to get the spreadsheets updated and then emailed back out to everyone.



Thank you, and thank you for all the work and head ache , hopefully i didnt make things worse.


----------



## jonathan_vest

i need to add a jowo #6 plug tap to my order.


----------



## eharri446

Update:

I will start sending out the updated spreadsheets with the final pricing this week.

Here is where we stand for the bottoming taps:

M14 & M13 need 5 more each to get to the 12+ pricing

Bock #5 we need 4, Bock #6 we need 3, JOWO #5 we need 6 and JOWO #6 we need 3. This will get us to the 10+ pricing which is as low as we can get.


----------



## tdsmart

I'm very late to the party, but I've finally convinced myself I need to take advantage of this.  Thanks for doing this and extending the deadline. I will send you a PM and the spreadsheet in a moment.  I will accept the additional full value insurance.


----------



## Chiller Killer

Super excited about this


----------



## eharri446

I am updating the final prices on all of the spreadsheets or whatever mean was used to place your orders and my goal is to have them out by the beginning of next week.

Once I get all of the payments in, I can place the order with the vendor. Because some of the work is done in Europe and some in the U.S. I will not know the final delivery time frame until the order is submitted.

Once I know that I will update the post with that information.


----------



## Chiller Killer

eharri446 said:


> I am updating the final prices on all of the spreadsheets or whatever mean was used to place your orders and my goal is to have them out by the beginning of next week.
> 
> Once I get all of the payments in, I can place the order with the vendor. Because some of the work is done in Europe and some in the U.S. I will not know the final delivery time frame until the order is submitted.
> 
> Once I know that I will update the post with that information.



Thank you again for all your work


----------



## eharri446

Is there anyone who could purchase a M14X.8 bottoming tap, a M13X.8 bottoming tap, a Bock#5  bottoming tap, or a JOWO #5 bottoming tap.

We need 5 M14 x .8 bottoming taps to get from $83.25 to $55.00 which would save $28.25. 

We need 5 M13 x .8 bottoming taps to get from $80.75 to $48.90 which would save $31.85.

We need 1 Bock #5 bottoming tap to get from $39.00 to $23.80 which would save $15.20.

We need 2 JOWO #5 bottoming tap to get from $36.80 to $22.60 which would save $14.20.

If anyone is interested let me know via PM.


----------



## Gregory Hardy

I have sent the spreadsheet back...
 - 12x.8 standard (non-bottoming) tap, triple-lead
 - 12x.8 tap, triple-lead
Please insure.

Thanks a million for supporting the group with this effort.
Best regards - 
- Greg


----------



## duncsuss

Gregory Hardy said:


> I have sent the spreadsheet back...
> - 12x.8 standard (non-bottoming) tap, triple-lead
> - 12x.8 tap, triple-lead


Greg,

Did you not want to buy a die? (rather than the second line saying "tap")


----------



## beck3906

eharri446 said:


> Is there anyone who could purchase a M14X.8 bottoming tap, a M13X.8 bottoming tap, a Bock#5  bottoming tap, or a JOWO #5 bottoming tap.
> 
> We need 5 M14 x .8 bottoming taps to get from $83.25 to $55.00 which would save $28.25.
> 
> We need 5 M13 x .8 bottoming taps to get from $80.75 to $48.90 which would save $31.85.
> 
> We need 1 Bock #5 bottoming tap to get from $39.00 to $23.80 which would save $15.20.
> 
> We need 2 JOWO #5 bottoming tap to get from $36.80 to $22.60 which would save $14.20.
> 
> If anyone is interested let me know via PM.



I'll take a bock #5 bottoming tap


----------



## Gregory Hardy

*OMG*



duncsuss said:


> Gregory Hardy said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have sent the spreadsheet back...
> - 12x.8 standard (non-bottoming) tap, triple-lead
> - 12x.8 tap, triple-lead
> 
> 
> 
> Greg,
> 
> Did you not want to buy a die? (rather than the second line saying "tap")
Click to expand...


YES, please and thank you.  I think my Excel spreadsheet reflected the correct order...but I want a triple lead tap AND die, and I do NOT want a bottoming tap - just a standard one.  (Oh, damn...I just want my cap to thread onto my barrel. Story of the lives of men everywhere, I suppose.)

Thanks for catching that!


----------



## Gregory Hardy

duncsuss said:


> Gregory Hardy said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have sent the spreadsheet back...
> - 12x.8 standard (non-bottoming) tap, triple-lead
> - 12x.8 tap, triple-lead
> 
> 
> 
> Greg,
> 
> Did you not want to buy a die? (rather than the second line saying "tap")
Click to expand...



Yes!  One tap (non-bottoming) and one die - both 12x.8 triple-lead.


----------



## Burb

After ordering some of these tap/die sets, I will likely need specific drill sizes for each as well. Would someone care to chime who has the knowledge of what is the best drill size for each off these:

- M14 X .08 Tap
- M13 X .08 Tap
- M12 X .08 Tap
- M11 X .08 Tap
- Bock #5 Tap
- Bock #6 Tap
- JOWO #5 Tap
- JOWO #6 Tap

Thank you.


----------



## eharri446

According to information that I found on the web here are the drill sizes that you will need:

M14 - M13.2
M13 - M12.2
M12 - M11.2
M11 - M10.2

Bock #5 - M5.8 or letter 'A'
Bock #6 - M7.3
Jowo #5 - M6
Jowo #6 - M9.9

If someone else knows of different sizes, please post that information.


----------



## stuckinohio

Bock #5 is finicky.  Some people say letter A and Beaufort says 6mm because there is an area right before the threads that is slightly larger which keeps the housing from threading in.  I'm stifling with it right now...


----------



## eharri446

I found a website which had a calculator for determining the correct drill size. I entered the  tap size and the thread pitch and that was what I entered for the Bock #5. 

I have also seen people on YouTube using a letter 'A' bit for the Bock #5. 

The M5.8 drill bit is equal to .232 and the letter 'A' is equal to .234, according to a metric to inches calculator I use fairly often you could use a 15/64 drill bit as well. 

Based on those numbers, the letter 'A' drills a hole that is .002 inches larger.

So, based on that information I updated the sizes I posted to make it either a metric size or a letter bit size.

I am going to do some more research and see if I can get a list of drill bits that would not require someone to purchase new drill bits unless they have too.


----------



## eharri446

Here is an updated list of drill sizes. Hopefully this will help everyone.

			                       Drill Bits		
Tap			        Metric	Decimal	Fraction
M14X.8			M13.2	0.519	33/64
M13X.8			M12.2	0.480	31/64
M12X.8			M11.2	0.440	7/16
M11X.8			M10.2	0.401	13/32

Bock #5 (M6.4x0.6)	M5.8	        0.228	15/64
Bock #6 (M7.9x0.6)	M7.3	        0.287	9/32
JOWO #5 (M6.5x0.5)	M6	        0.236	15/64
JOWO #6 (M7.4x0.5)	M6.9	        0.271	17/64


----------



## Burb

eharri446 said:


> Here is an updated list of drill sizes. Hopefully this will help everyone.
> 
> Drill Bits
> Tap			        Metric	Decimal	Fraction
> M14X.8			M13.2	0.519	33/64
> M13X.8			M12.2	0.480	31/64
> M12X.8			M11.2	0.440	7/16
> M11X.8			M10.2	0.401	13/32
> 
> Bock #5 (M6.4x0.6)	M5.8	        0.228	15/64
> Bock #6 (M7.9x0.6)	M7.3	        0.287	9/32
> JOWO #5 (M6.5x0.5)	M6	        0.236	15/64
> JOWO #6 (M7.4x0.5)	M6.9	        0.271	17/64



Thank you VERY much for your efforts!! I don't need all of these (Not getting all sizes), but I'm sure others will benefit from this info. Since I'm looking at placing an Amazon order today for a couple of things, I may try to get some of these drill bits as well.


----------



## eharri446

If you can not get the metric drills from amazon try victornet.com. That is where I ordered mine from.


----------



## Burb

eharri446 said:


> If you can not get the metric drills from amazon try victornet.com. That is where I ordered mine from.



Since victor net seems like much easier to find and I can get all from same vendor, I may just go there. Which would you suggest:

 - Carbide, TiN, Cobalt, Economy, 
 - Jobber, Long, or standard length
 - OTHER??

Thanks.


----------



## eharri446

I order their jobber bits. Since the most that we will be drilling will be plastics of some type or another. (Acrylics, Casein, Ebonite, Polyester Resin, Liquid Diamond, etc...) I do not think that I would go with anything but the jobber bits.

However, others may have different opinions on what type are best. My concern was the cost of the drill bits.


----------



## Phil Dart

I can quite see why a group buy is an attractive proposition - everyone gets some cheap gear. Win Win -  to a point. The only problem is that if everything were always bought on that basis, in the end you would ultimately not have specialists around any longer, who are the very people who you turn to for advice and information, and for all the little bits and pieces you _can't_ source in a group buy.

No - this is not a gripe, I'm just saying, - and in the interest of good will I will tell you that this particular specialist KNOWS that if you use a letter A or a 5.8 for a Bock #5, it will not fit. As as already been mentioned by someone who has clearly been on the Beaufort Ink website, where there is a good explanation as to why, despite the perceived wisdom when it comes to calculating drill sizes, a Bock size 5 requires a 6mm drill.

Bock are German - they don't do fractions of an inch in Germany, they do metric. The difference between 6mm and Letter A is 0.06mm, which I'm afraid is the difference between fitting and not fitting.


----------



## eharri446

Thanks for the clarification. I based my comments on what was mention on the Beaufort Ink website where it showed the taps.

For my information, where can I find the information that you are referring to?

Thanks for clarifying this for the group.


----------



## stuckinohio

eharri446 said:


> Thanks for the clarification. I based my comments on what was mention on the Beaufort Ink website where it showed the taps.
> 
> For my information, where can I find the information that you are referring to?
> 
> Thanks for clarifying this for the group.



Half way down the page where the taps for the Bock #5 housings are you will see a link to download the drawing and explanation of what size to drill and why.
Thread taps for Bock nibs


----------



## stuckinohio

Phil Dart said:


> I can quite see why a group buy is an attractive proposition - everyone gets some cheap gear. Win Win -  to a point. The only problem is that if everything were always bought on that basis, in the end you would ultimately not have specialists around any longer, who are the very people who you turn to for advice and information, and for all the little bits and pieces you _can't_ source in a group buy.
> 
> No - this is not a gripe, I'm just saying, - and in the interest of good will I will tell you that this particular specialist KNOWS that if you use a letter A or a 5.8 for a Bock #5, it will not fit. As as already been mentioned by someone who has clearly been on the Beaufort Ink website, where there is a good explanation as to why, despite the perceived wisdom when it comes to calculating drill sizes, a Bock size 5 requires a 6mm drill.
> 
> Bock are German - they don't do fractions of an inch in Germany, they do metric. The difference between 6mm and Letter A is 0.06mm, which I'm afraid is the difference between fitting and not fitting.



FYI, anyone that hasn't visited Beaufort Ink's website needs to. As far as I can tell, he has the best selection of #5 Bock nibs, feeds and housings. Well, really Bock #5 and#6 nibs. And he has both the kit specific housings and the standard Bock housings. Along with a great selection of triple start taps and dies in stock, which no one else has.

He is also very helpful with information and shipping. I have purchased several taps, dies and pen kits from him. Shipping is pretty fast and not too expensive.

Phil,

With that said, I simply can't afford to buy the rest of the taps and dies from Beaufort, so I am getting them from this group buy. I suspect you'll find that people will still buy from you because group buys don't come along every day, or every year for that matter! And no, these aren't Tapco, but I suspect they will hold up to the use I will subject them to.

Please don't take offense to this group buy. We gotta save money every where we can. Specially with kitless pens. Every time I turn around I need another tap and die, drill bit or clip! I try to support all the vendors that support us, and I'll continue to support you.


----------



## More4dan

Any update or the latest schedule?  I am excited to be in this group buy and didn't want to miss my deadline to make payment as the timing is shifting a bit.  Thanks again for all the hard work putting this together.

Danny


----------



## eharri446

I am planning to start sending out the Invoice copy of the spreadsheets tonight. I have one more price update to make to get the final total.

Having said that, is there anyone who can see their way to purchasing a M14 or M13 bottoming tap we need 5 of the M14 and 4 of the M13 to get down to the next to the lowest price for these taps.

If anyone wants to do this, please send me a PM as soon as possible. Once I get the Invoice spreadsheets sent out that will be the end of the changes.

If anyone has already made payments, and the prices change, I will refund the difference on the group buy is completed.

I appreciate all of the support that I have received while doing this group buy. This has been one of the most challenging things I have undertaken in many years.


----------



## Skeleton2014

I've already ordered one of everything. I know I originally said I would commit if prices were for the 12 qty but, after second thought, I'm okay with prices as they stand. If you don't get the M13 and M14 bottoming quantities down, I hope they don't get cancelled. Again, I'm prepared to go with prices for all the taps and dies as they end up. 
Thanks, Jeff
PS: You took on a daunting job doing this group buy... Probably one of the most complex I've seen since joining IAP.  We really appreciate your work on this!!!



eharri446 said:


> I am planning to start sending out the Invoice copy of the spreadsheets tonight. I have one more price update to make to get the final total.
> 
> Having said that, is there anyone who can see their way to purchasing a M14 or M13 bottoming tap we need 5 of the M14 and 4 of the M13 to get down to the next to the lowest price for these taps.
> 
> If anyone wants to do this, please send me a PM as soon as possible. Once I get the Invoice spreadsheets sent out that will be the end of the changes.
> 
> If anyone has already made payments, and the prices change, I will refund the difference on the group buy is completed.
> 
> I appreciate all of the support that I have received while doing this group buy. This has been one of the most challenging things I have undertaken in many years.


----------



## eharri446

Thanks for the kudos. However, if it were not for the help of the members, it would not have gotten off of the ground.


----------



## jonathan_vest

okay i need to add a bock number 5 plug tap to my order also. sorry for being a pain!


----------



## eharri446

Jonathan,

I already had you down for one of them. Do you mean a #6 plug tap instead?


----------



## jonathan_vest

no i am sorry, i just had to go out and check what i had already. if the bock #5 is already on there then i am good.


----------



## Phil Dart

Lewis - there are no hard feelings I assure you, and I did say in my post that it wasn't a gripe - I was simply making the point that's all.

It may be the case that some of the faceless larger dealers of all things pen and pen kit don't really care too much about their customers as long as they get the money, but smaller dealers and specialist DO tend to care about their customers, and we ourselves like to work with them and support them, not just make a fast buck.

In some group buys, not necessarily here I hasten to add, there is sometimes a motive to do it to spite the dealers and specialists, and one recent one in particular, elsewhere on the internet, would actually have got a better price if they had involved me in the buy, which I offered to do. None the less, many of those involved still then want to come to me for free advise.

It's a big world, and I assure you that early retirement is not brought about by selling triple lead taps and dies to pen makers, so I reiterate - there really are no hard feelings, and I look forward to maybe welcoming some of the participants of this group buy as customers when you need your nibs for your new pens.


----------



## Gregory Hardy

"Make better pens.  Make good pens.  Keep making pens."

I want to thank all of those responsible for a "group buy" that allows pen makers to keep making pens, better pens, good pens.

I want to especially thank Phil Dart.  The "free advice" he mentions is real advice, good advice, and given freely, because he wants people to make better pens, good pens.  Moreover - from one guy who has only known Phil (digitally) for about two months, I sucked the very marrow out of this poor guy.  His emails to help me - when he had little or nothing to gain - were the inspiration to "go kitless," and I have done so.  

I propose that we all keep perspective.  If you can get a deal on something, buy it.  No one will chastise you for taking advantage of a deal.  (Phil won't either.  That's the man he is.)  When you need good, high-quality advice, ask an expert.  (Have I mentioned a guy named Phil?)  Maybe we need to remember something: "We are all on the same team.  The team makes pens so people will write."

I haven't known him long, but if I have a question, I am going to ask Mr. Dart.  He's helpful.  He'll still love us all if we buy some stuff somewhere else...but if you need good products specific to fine pen-making, take a look at Beaufort Ink.  As a side note, I would respect his advice..  He seems to know some stuff.  "Devil his due, right?  Thanks, Phil, for your support of a very special group of really strange folks.  "We are pen makers."  ("We are CHEAP pen-makers, but pen-makers nonetheless!")

BTW, Phil - I am waiting ANXIOUSLY for my recent order.  Mistral kit coming.  I am going to make a beauty!

Keep the faith, friends.  Make pens so people will write again.
Amen.


----------



## eharri446

I have sent out the final invoices to everyone who I have received a spreadsheet from.

If you do not receive your invoice by 9:00 PM EST today, please send me an email and I will see if it did not send for some reason.

I have asked that all payments be in by 9/5/2017 so that I can get the order placed.

We have over 50 members participating in this group buy, and our order is currently setting at $15,233.90. We have ordered a total of 348 items in this buy.

I want to thank everyone for the patience with me as I worked through all of the trials in getting everything together to place our order.

Since I do not know how the vendor is going to package everything for shipment, I am planning of wrapping all of the taps and dies in foam sheet and placing them into a bubble wrap pouch. Then I will place them into the USPS Priority Mail small boxes for shipment. The two orders being sent to Canada will be using Priority Mail International small boxes and the one order going to the UK will be using the Priority Mail Express International padded envelope for shipping.


----------



## Burb

My $$ has been sent. I am officially broke now!!!!


----------



## leehljp

eharri446 said:


> I have sent out the final invoices to everyone who I have received a spreadsheet from.
> 
> If you do not receive your invoice by 9:00 PM EST today, please send me an email and I will see if it did not send for some reason.
> 
> I have asked that all payments be in by 9/5/2017 so that I can get the order placed.
> 
> We have over 50 members participating in this group buy, and our order is currently setting at $15,233.90. We have ordered a total of 348 items in this buy.
> 
> I want to thank everyone for the patience with me as I worked through all of the trials in getting everything together to place our order.
> 
> Since I do not know how the vendor is going to package everything for shipment, I am planning of wrapping all of the taps and dies in foam sheet and placing them into a bubble wrap pouch. Then I will place them into the USPS Priority Mail small boxes for shipment. The two orders being sent to Canada will be using Priority Mail International small boxes and the one order going to the UK will be using the Priority Mail Express International padded envelope for shipping.




I have a Bock #5 plug tap listed on my sheet but I don't remember ordering that. Could it be that some one else ordered that? 

Do I need a different spread sheet or just deduct that amount from my current order?

Thanks


----------



## eharri446

If you signed up for the group buy and have not made your payment yet, I will be sending you an updated invoice reflecting the new prices and your amount due will be adjusted for those prices.

Once you get the updated invoice, please remit your payment via PayPal Friends & Family using the email address on your email.

Thanks


----------



## Burb

eharri446 said:


> If you signed up for the group buy and have not made your payment yet, I will be sending you an updated invoice reflecting the new prices and your amount due will be adjusted for those prices.
> 
> Once you get the updated invoice, please remit your payment via PayPal Friends & Family using the email address on your email.
> 
> Thanks





I submitted my payment prior to the source change. Due to the price adjustments, I'd like to order additional bottoming bits. I emailed you the info. Let me know and I'll send the extra $$. Thank you. 



Mark
www.MWWoodworx.com


----------



## Sprung

Have been out of town and away from the computer for the last 9 days - was wondering when we might see updated invoices being sent out?


----------



## More4dan

Sprung said:


> Have been out of town and away from the computer for the last 9 days - was wondering when we might see updated invoices being sent out?





Earlier this week. Check your email. 

Payment due ASAP. Like today I think. 

Danny


Sent from my iPhone using Penturners.org mobile app


----------



## Sprung

More4dan said:


> Sprung said:
> 
> 
> 
> Have been out of town and away from the computer for the last 9 days - was wondering when we might see updated invoices being sent out?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Earlier this week. Check your email.
> 
> Payment due ASAP. Like today I think.
> 
> Danny
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Penturners.org mobile app
Click to expand...


Nothing in either my inbox or spam folders. There wasn't much of a price difference between the two sources for me, but I know I owe a couple bucks after the switch and want to make sure it's covered.


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## stuckinohio

I don't think he has sent out the corrected spreadsheets yet.


----------



## eharri446

I am trying to get the rest of the invoices updated so that I can send them out.

I had to work with those who had not paid as of yet and any who had updated their orders first.

I hope to have them out by Monday or Tuesday. I will be placing the order on the 14th of September.


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## stuckinohio

*PROPOSAL TO DONATE EXTRA TO ELWIN*

I would like to propose that we all kick in an extra $5 or more, above the amount that we owe, in order to help pay for whatever Elwin is getting. He is putting in a huge amount of work on this group buy. Particularly because of switching to Tapco, which is saving a lot of people money.

Lewis


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## magpens

Lewis, I think that would be a nice and appropriate gesture.


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## eharri446

Here is how the group buy stands at this time.

We had 54 people participate in this group buy.

All payments have been received.

Over half of the updated invoices have been sent out. The remained will be sent out this weekend.

The order has been placed. Here is what we ordered:

We placed an order for $15,373.75.

Here is what we ordered:

M14 X .08 Plug Tap	        17    @ $51.81
M14 X .08 Bottoming Tap	  8    @ $51.81
M13 X .08 Plug Tap	        20    @ $47.10
M13 X .08 Bottoming Tap	10    @ $47.10
M12 X .08 Plug Tap	        35    @ $39.50
M12 X .08 Bottoming Tap	20    @ $39.50
M11 X .08 Plug Tap	        24    @ $37.70
M11 X .08 Bottoming Tap	15    @ $37.70

All dies should be 1 inch diameter.
M14 X .08 Die            		18    @ $67.20
M13 X .08 Die            		19    @ $67.20
M12 X .08 Die            		35    @ $67.20
M11 X .08 Die            		24    @ $67.20

M6.4x0.6 Plug Tap            	24    @ $18.50
M6.4x0.6 Bottoming Tap        12    @ $18.50
M7.9x0.6 Plug Tap            	24    @ $18.50
M7.9x0.6 Bottoming Tap    	13    @ $18.50
M6.5x0.5 Plug Tap            	21    @ $18.50
M6.5x0.5 Bottoming Tap    	  9    @ $18.50
M7.5x0.5 Plug Tap            	24    @ $18.50
M7.5x0.5 Bottoming Tap    	12    @ $18.50

The vendor will send me an invoice with the shipping and handling included and once I get that and pay the invoice, then within 10 to 14 business days they should ship the order to me.

As soon as I get the order in, I will have to inventory it to make sure that we got what we paid for. Break it down based on the final invoices that were sent out. Package it shop mailing, create the mailing labels and take the packages to the post office. Last but not least, I will process any refunds due. 

All in all, I am hoping to have everything completed and the group buy closed out by the first part of November.


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## KCW

I, for one, am donating my over payment (a little less than $6) to Elwin, for his hard work on this buy.


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## stuckinohio

Thank you.  I did the same.  I think he has more than earned it!


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## Tailored Pen Company

eharri446 said:


> Please *read* this post in its entirety.
> 
> First and foremost you must:
> 
> • Post to this thread and pm me if you would like to participate.
> 
> • This group buy cutoff if August 20th, 2017 in order to complete the above and fulfill the above and below.​
> OVERVIEW
> 
> This buy is focused on obtaining the maximum quantity discount for our members for triple lead tap and dies as well as for the Bock and JOWO taps required to build kit less pens.​
> IF YOU WANT TO PARTICIPATE.
> 
> The goal is to have everything done and ordered by August 21st, 2017. I will do my best to use USPS Small Flat Rate Box (online USA postage price of $7.15 plus insurance based on the basic cost to replace the taps and dies that you order. If you do not want to pay for the additional insurance you will have to send me a PM opting out of the insurance). International postal rates depend on country and I will figure and request the difference at mailing to be sent by PayPal.
> 
> $50 of insurance is now included with Priority Mail. YOU are responsible for any additional insurance you want.
> 
> **New IAP guideline**
> 
> Insurance will be included unless you specifically decline!
> 
> For reference:
> 
> $100 of insurance costs $2.65, 200= $3.35, 300= $4.35, 400=$5.50, 500= $6.65. Please refer to the USPS website if you need insurance above $500. The amount of insurance will be calculated by me once I receive the spreadsheet. I recommend insurance. Please remember that I am responsible for shipping your merchandise, but I cannot be held responsible for its delivery!​
> For Example:
> 
> If you order 1 plug tap and die for the M14, M13, M12, M11 and one plug tap for the Bock #5 and #6 as well as the JOWO #5 and #6 the total retail cost would be: $2011.40 so your insurance would be $27.90 making you total shipping cost $35.05.
> 
> The total cost of shipping will be determined once the individual spreadsheets are received. Once that is done the total cost for your order will be sent to you via PM. Once the total cost is determine you will have to make your payment to me via PayPal by the payment deadline. Otherwise your order will not be include in the final order to the vendor.​
> WAITING LIST
> 
> There is no waiting list for this group buy.​
> THE SPECIFICS
> 
> This group buy is open to any member of IAP.
> 
> IF YOU DO NOT MEET THE TIMELINES, WE WILL PLACE THE ORDER WITHOUT YOU. IF YOU SENT MONEY AFTER THE DEADLINE AND THE ORDER WAS PLACED THEN YOUR MONEY WILL BE REFUNDED TO YOU. THERE WILL BE NO "WARNING" EMAILS THAT YOU ARE LATE.​
> REQUIREMENTS TO PARTICIPATE
> 
> • 1. Post to this thread and PM me to get in
> • 2. Must have a valid shipping address
> • 3. New: In your reply in this thread you must state that you either want to "Insure for retail value" or "No additional insurance on my shipment." Additionally, on the spreadsheet, you must indicate the same.
> Please indicate your NAME and IAP USERNAME on all payments and correspondence.
> 
> I will give you my email address to return the spreadsheet too. Please note, download the spreadsheet at the bottom of this thread.
> 
> In the Excel document, there is a block at the top of the spreadsheets. It requires:
> 
> Your IAP screen name
> Your “real” name
> Your email address
> Your mailing address
> Whether or not you want insurance (Yes/No)
> The sheet automatically calculates the PayPal fee – zero it out if using “Friends and Family”​
> If these fields are not filled out accurately, the spreadsheet will be returned to you!​DEADLINES
> 
> • Spreadsheet must be returned by August 10th, 2017 (Midnight – CST)
> • PayPal (only payment option) by August 20th, 2017 (Midnight – CST)​
> PAYMENTS - PAYPAL ONLY
> 
> I will be placing the order by Monday, Aug 21st, 2017. If you have not made the PayPal payment by the deadline scheduled above you will be removed from the buy. I will confirm your total via PM as well as my PayPal information once I receive your order back.
> 
> Several members and organizers have asked PayPal regarding the use of "Friends and Family" payment option. And it is OK in their eyes and has been each time they were contacted. The "Friends and Family" payment method has no fees for the recipient, thus saving you money. If you choose NOT to use the send money to Friends and Family option, the spreadsheet has already added 4% PayPal goods and services fee. If you use F&F option - follow the guide on the spreadsheet and zero out the PayPal fee.
> 
> I will issue PayPal refunds for any over payments. I will try to get as close to even as possible – anything less than $1.00 will not be refunded.​
> SHIPPING
> 
> 
> 
> Availability
> 
> Shipping will be done once all of the merchandise for the order is received. According to the vendor the merchandise will be available based on the : taps in 3-5 weeks and the dies in 4 – 6 weeks depending on quantity ordered​
> USA
> 
> Will be defaulted to published USPS small Flat Rate Box for online postage price of $7.15. It will include tracking and delivery confirmation.​
> International
> 
> Will be determined once you submit your spreadsheet, and the cost will be updated on your spreadsheet. Once that is updated you will be notified via PM of the final cost of your order. It will include tracking and delivery confirmation.​
> SHIPPING INSURANCE
> 
> I do require that you pay for insurance, unless you specifically chose to opt out of the additional insurance. *I cannot and will not* be responsible for what happens to your order after it leaves my control. You will receive confirmation of shipping, but once it has left my hands I am not responsible for it.
> 
> If you desire no additional insurance then you must notify me via PM and indicate that you do not want additional insurance on the spreadsheet.
> 
> I highly recommend that you do not opt out of the additional insurance because of the cost to replace your order at the retail cost per item.​
> ITEMS AVAILABLE
> 
> The items available for ordering will be listed on the spreadsheet and all you have to do is enter the quantity for each tap and/or die that you wish to purchase.
> 
> Only items listed on the spreadsheet will be included in the buy, no other items will be added.​
> BACK ORDERED ITEMS
> 
> There will be NO back orders.​
> CLOSEOUT ITEMS
> 
> There will be NO CLOSEOUT ORDERS.​
> MORE INFORMATION
> 
> The attached spreadsheet for the Triple Start Threads Group Buy will calculate your total cost for order based on the results of the thread under the Group Buy Research forum.
> 
> I have also rounded up the PayPal fee to 4.0% (only applicable if you’re NOT using the Friends and Family option in PayPal). Your PayPal fee may be less than what you pay, and this difference will be refunded. Once all payments are received and account settled to my satisfaction, I will issue PayPal refunds for any over payments. I’ll try to get as close to even as possible – anything less than $1.00 will not be refunded.
> 
> All refunds or settlements will be in the form of a check included in your order.
> 
> Please complete your order within the spreadsheet. Before you return the spreadsheet to me by email – change the excel file name as follows:
> 
> RealFirstName_RealLastName_TSTD_2017_Group_Final.xls​
> I hope these terms are acceptable to everyone, and please feel free to PM me with any questions or concerns.
> 
> NOTE: If anyone does not have access to Microsoft Excel, please contact me and I will send you and alternate means of entering your order.​




Elwin, hi there. Can you shoot me your email address in a pm please? Thanks


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## eharri446

I checked with the vendor about our order, and they expect it to ship sometime around October 19th if not sooner.


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## stuckinohio

NICE!!!!!


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## magpens

Thanks for the update, Elwin !!!


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## Tailored Pen Company

eharri446 said:


> I checked with the vendor about our order, and they expect it to ship sometime around October 19th if not sooner.



Thanks for the update! So very excited!


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## eharri446

Got an updated status of the order from the vendor. They are going to ship it no later than Friday.


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## RobS

wow that is awesome


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## More4dan

Any update?


Sent from my iPhone using Penturners.org mobile app


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## eharri446

I just received the tracking information. I had spoke with the vendor rep on Friday to get an update and was informed that something was done wrong when creating the M14 x .8 triple start dies and that they had to redo all of those dies for our order.

So now, I am waiting on a 32 pound box of metal goodies to arrive, then I can begin to break the order down and repackage for each person in the buy.

Then create the mailing labels, thank god for the internet, assemble the boxes, take them to the post office, and finally make any refunds that are required.

So it appears that my weekends are going to be full for the next couple of weeks.

When I create the mailing labels I select that each of you be notified via email as to the status of your orders.

I can see light at the end of the tunnel.


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## romoshka

Awesome


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## stuckinohio

Thank you again for the crazy amount of work you have/will put into this!


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## PatrickR

Great news! Thank you for doing this Elwin!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Erik831

Is it too late to buy a set?


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## DavidD

Erik831 said:


> Is it too late to buy a set?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Penturners.org mobile app



I may also be interested if anyone has decided to back out...


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## eharri446

The order has been placed with the vendor and the vendor has shipped it to me. I should have it in my possession tomorrow.

So unfortunately this group buy is almost finished. Keep an eye out and maybe someone will do one in the future. Or, maybe someone who purchased on this bu decides that kit less are too much trouble and will offer theirs for sale.


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## eharri446

I just got the order and finished inventorying it to ensure that everything was correct.

That means that I will start prepping everything to ship the orders to everyone.

Not going to be a quick process that much I know for sure. I am looking at 4 or 5 trips to the post office to get everything mailed out.

If you are participating in the group buy, you will receive an email from the post office to your email address with the tracking information.


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## magpens

Thank you, Elwin ..... VERY much !!!


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## duncsuss

magpens said:


> Thank you, Elwin ..... VERY much !!!



What Mal said ^^^


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## eharri446

Just a quick update.

I am currently working to break down all of the items each person ordered, packaging them up, and this evening I will begin to print shipping labels for the first group of packages to be shipped.

I hope to take the first 20 or so packages to the post office tomorrow morning.

I spent the last two days of last week sick with a cold so did not get as much done as I would have liked to.


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## darrin1200

No problem Elwin.


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## WhiskeyRain

eharri446 said:


> I spent the last two days of last week sick with a cold so did not get as much done as I would have liked to.





Hope you’re feeling better!


Sent from my iPad using Penturners.org mobile app


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## eharri446

I will be sending each person who still owes money an email showing that amount via the email that I have for each person.

I will be sending each person who has a refund coming  an email showing that amount via the email that I have for each person. I would like each person who is due a refund to send me a response telling me what they want to do with the refund amount.

Also, I sent the first 19 package out yesterday. I am sending out 16 packages today, and hope to get the final group out tomorrow.


----------



## stuckinohio

Happy dance! Thank you so much for doing this!


----------



## darrin1200

Many thanks. I recieved my USPS notice.


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## WhiskeyRain

Received today and everything was in order! Thanks again Elwin for all the hard work and time you spent on this effort.  Been a long road now hoping the wait was worth it. It would be awesome to see everyone’s pens posted, feel like we all have a special bond now [emoji6]


Sent from my iPad using Penturners.org mobile app


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## drise

Received mine today. Everything is correct. Thanks Elwin for all your work on this group buy. Now just have to find time to put these to good use.


----------



## Grampy122

*Order received*

I just received my order and everything is perfect. Thank you for doing a really super job.

  Gordie


----------



## stuckinohio

Got my package and everything is in perfect order. Thank you very much Elwin!


----------



## Brian G

I received my package yesterday, in perfect order.

Thank you, Elwin!


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## eharri446

I keep getting questions about some of the package not being received.

I will be shipping the rest of the packages out Monday morning.

What happens is when you create a mailing label via USPS it starts sending out notifications right away, and that is causing some confusion.


----------



## Sprung

I received my package today. There were a couple discrepancies that I sent you a PM about, Elwin. Thanks!


----------



## tdsmart

Edwin, I received my package this weekend, thanks!


----------



## Cmiles1985

Thanks for hosting this buy Edwin! My package arrived safe, sound and complete.


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## RobS

Package received Elwin, thanks for the effort.


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## GSteer

Just got notice from UK Customs that it's sitting at my local depot pending release. They actually got the numbers right for once so it's paid and pending delivery Monday, looking forward to it.


----------



## eldee

Elwin, thanks again for putting this together. I have received my order.


----------



## darrin1200

Package arrived safe and complete.

Thanks


----------



## doughal

I am just now seeing this thread...  I don't suppose you guys ordered any extra???


----------



## duncsuss

doughal said:


> I am just now seeing this thread...  I don't suppose you guys ordered any extra???



Here's a better question: "Have any of you guys who bought these taps 3 months ago decided you'll never use them? If so, would you consider selling me ..." and fill in the blank with the taps/dies you want :wink:


----------



## doughal

An excellent suggestion.  Is there anyone willing to sell me a triple start M12x.75 or .8?  

I understand this is the best size to start with for custom pens that are in the size range of your standard cigar shaped pen?  Aka like a Montblanc 146 rather than the 149 (which would be more like a M14?)...  

I'm new to this, so if that's not correct please feel free to educate me.


----------



## magpens

If you have never done any kitless pens (or anything requiring tap and die) you could start by doing "something" with an M10x1 set ... you can buy such a tap and die at most specialty hardward stores (probably not Home Depot) ... tap and die sets from Grizzly or H.F. usually have that size.  M10x1 is the thread size on the El Grande pen nib (and kits of the same size) .... just to get a feel for things.


----------



## Gregory Hardy

...And I am looking for a 13mm triple lead set.  PM me if you want to want to part with one.  Thanks!


----------

