# Okay, Sir Steven (Skip)... others too



## alamocdc (Aug 24, 2012)

I just checked my T&Ds from back in 07 or 08 (can't remember when we did this). The T&D for the cap threads are 12x2, 4 meaning 12 mm with a pitch of 2 and 4 starts, right? Just making sure I am remembering everything correctly. O also got an additional 10x1 tap for the section. No die because as I remember, most of us had planned on using the sections from the El Grande (at least I think that was the one) and that is the cut on that section. 

This is just a sanity check since it's been so long.

One more thing, is anyone selling these sections, or am I better off just making my own? And if the latter is the case, who is selling the feeds (and nibs, of course)? I know there are several selling nibs, I just don't recall seeing anything on the feeds. But I'll cruise the classifieds to see what I can find to prove I'm not entirely helpless.:wink:


----------



## IPD_Mr (Aug 24, 2012)

The sections you will make.  That is the fun part because you can make so many variations and see what feels best in the hand.

There are several selling feed units.  This is off the top of my head and I may miss some so someone chime in if they know of more.

Edison - Miester nib units
Golden Nib - Schmidt nib units and maybe another
Classic Nib - Bock nib units
Us - Bock and Schmid nib units
Arizona S - They may have some units for El Grande and Churchill
EB - They had the Jr Gent front section complete last I saw
Bear Tooth - Ernie has several such as the Churchill and El Grande


----------



## alamocdc (Aug 24, 2012)

Thanks, Mike, I've seen alot of references to IPD and added your site to my faves a few minutes ago. From the looks of things I found in the few minutes I scrounged around before coming back here, I found most of what you listed and added them too. I may stick with El Grande sections for my first few... remember, I'm only just getting back into this. That way I won't have to lay out more money for T&Ds just yet. Don't want to go that route unless I see that they are selling. But I know me well enough to know that you are right. I will eventually just do my own.


----------



## IPD_Mr (Aug 24, 2012)

Billy - In the end you have to do what you are most comfortable with and get the most enjoyment out of. If not, then what is the point of doing this. I think you have a good plan laid out. Just remember if you get stuck the forum is here and that Skippy fellow is a wealth of knowledge if he doesn't get shot first.  :biggrin::tongue::biggrin:


----------



## alamocdc (Aug 25, 2012)

Thanks for the unput, Mike!! I've got more than just Steven to query if I have problems. I know Brian and Roy would be willing to answer my questions too. Maybe even Doc and some others that slip my mind at the moment. But that's pone of the things I've always liked about IAP. If you get in trouble, there is always someone willing to provide a workable solution.


----------



## skiprat (Aug 25, 2012)

Hi Billy, you shouldn't have singled me out. There are many more knowledgeable folk here than I am. However, as you asked, it would be rude of me to not answer. So here goes.:biggrin:

There are two answers. One long. One short

The short answer is you probably have the correct stuff for the job and yes you are correct. :wink:

However...I would have expected the description on the tools to read something ; M12 x 0.5 x 4, rather than the M12 x 2, 4. 

Please look at the picture. These are all M12 taps. Metric threads are all cut at 60degs. This makes the groove an equalateral triangle and therefore the pitch ( thread depth ) is always the same as the lead ( distance between threads )

It is not always appreciated, but the depth is measured at the angle, not perpendicularly. But it only makes a small difference. 

A standard M12 thread has a pitch and lead of 1.75mm. That's the one on the left. It is pretty coarse. Next to it is a M12 x 1mm (single thread ) then there is a M12 x 0.8 Triple,, and finally my home made M12 x 1 Triple.

You can see that if the description that you have is correct then it would have an even coarser thread than the first one. So it would appear to me that they actually mean that each individual thread is 2mm apart, but as there are 4 of them, the thread has 4 threads in each 2mm. Making it an M12 x 0.5 Quad.

Hope this helps:wink::biggrin:


----------



## Robert111 (Aug 25, 2012)

12 x 2 x 4 doesn't sound right. For one thing, the 2 is unlikely to be a viable pitch choice, if one even exists. And then, I've never heard of a set with 4 leads, although that doesn't mean they don't exist.

Generally you don't want to use a pitch greater than 1, I would say--too coarse and hence ugly and poor tactile characteristic. If you want to use a 12 size, the 12 x .75 would be good. 

For a novice, combining a 12 for barrel/cap with a 10 for section barrel is risky. You won't have much barrel wall thickness and thus your barrel will be quite fragile where the threads are. Why not go with a 14x .75 or 14 x 1 for an inexpensive set for the barrel/cap threads.

Hope this helps Bill.



alamocdc said:


> I just checked my T&Ds from back in 07 or 08 (can't remember when we did this). The T&D for the cap threads are 12x2, 4 meaning 12 mm with a pitch of 2 and 4 starts, right? Just making sure I am remembering everything correctly. O also got an additional 10x1 tap for the section. No die because as I remember, most of us had planned on using the sections from the El Grande (at least I think that was the one) and that is the cut on that section.
> 
> This is just a sanity check since it's been so long.
> 
> One more thing, is anyone selling these sections, or am I better off just making my own? And if the latter is the case, who is selling the feeds (and nibs, of course)? I know there are several selling nibs, I just don't recall seeing anything on the feeds. But I'll cruise the classifieds to see what I can find to prove I'm not entirely helpless.:wink:


----------



## skiprat (Aug 25, 2012)

Billy, just for interests sake, the reason I'm sure your T&D is correct is because if you were to cut those threads on a lathe, then you would set the gearing to M12 x *2*. ( not 0.5 ) :wink: You would then only cut 0.5mm deep, then either rotate the work by 90deg or move the cutter 0.5mm before making the next cut. ( sound more complex than it is ):biggrin:


----------



## Paul in OKC (Aug 25, 2012)

skiprat said:


> Billy, just for interests sake, the reason I'm sure your T&D is correct is because if you were to cut those threads on a lathe, then you would set the gearing to M12 x *2*. ( not 0.5 ) :wink: You would then only cut 0.5mm deep, then either rotate the work by 90deg or move the cutter 0.5mm before making the next cut. ( sound more complex than it is ):biggrin:



True. The given pitch is what it would be for one thread. In my thoughts (American threads) I think of using an 8 pitch, 3 start. On the lathe it would be set to 8, but I would cut the depth like a 24. An 8 pitch 3 start will look like a 24 TPI.
 Does that make the mud any clearer?


----------



## alamocdc (Aug 25, 2012)

Ok, you guys had me worried there for a second. I just double checked the tool and it is fine threaded like the three on the right that Steven posted. Both it and the box is labeled as I typed it above. However, there was a lable in the box that identified the tap as a .8 pitch so I think I'm good to go. And I can't wait to try some of my ideas. 

Robert, I appreciate your concern! Remember, in my OP I said I didn't want to have to layout any funds not absolutely necessary until I know these will be movers for me? So buying more T&Ds isn't really an option for me right now. And I don't know that I'd call myself a novice. I'm no Skiprat or Brian, that's for sure, but I think my experience with my equipment is adequate for the task. Now it is true that I'll be combining skills that I have not combined before, so that could prove interesting enough. :wink:


----------



## Dan_F (Aug 26, 2012)

I'm getting ready to get back into making some kitless pens, and was wondering about the multi start taps also. 

I apparently have the same tap and die set as Billy. It wasn't from the first group buy, but I think from the second. I always thought it was triple start, don't remember quads ever being mentioned at the time. Mine says M12x2,4 (P-0.8), which confused the heck out of me, not knowing what most of it meant. I was just playing with a pen that I made with it, and it only seems to have three starts as far as I can tell, by counting the spots where the threads disengage - unscrewing the pen while pulling it apart at the end of the threads. This is consistent with my memory of it being three starts, despite the markings on the tap. 

I see the new sets at Indy-Pen-Dance have different numbers, but I don't remember seeing any posts about changing the configuration of the tap and die sets. Of course I haven't been here as much over the last couple of years.

A lot of us made pens from the 10mm section and 12mm cap tap and die sets at the time, and yes there is not a lot of material left, but I don't remember hearing of many breaking there. 

I have M9 and 10x.75 tap and die sets on the way for sections, and hope to get back at it by next week. I have the 14mm multistart set as well, but never used it, not having a die holder that big. I suppose I will have to cobble together a holder for it and try it out. 

Mike --- Why did you decide to go with a different 12mm tap and die set than the ones we had been getting since the beginning? Just curious. 

Dan


----------



## skiprat (Aug 26, 2012)

Dan_F said:


> Mine says M12x2,4 (P-0.8), .
> 
> Dan


 
I'm suprised nobody has clicked onto this yet.

2.4 divide 0.8 = 3. :wink:

So the *lead *of each thread is 2.4mm and the * pitch * is o.8mm

Thus 3 starts:biggrin:


----------



## Robert111 (Aug 26, 2012)

alamocdc said:


> Ok, you guys had me worried there for a second. I just double checked the tool and it is fine threaded like the three on the right that Steven posted. Both it and the box is labeled as I typed it above. However, there was a lable in the box that identified the tap as a .8 pitch so I think I'm good to go. And I can't wait to try some of my ideas.
> 
> Robert, I appreciate your concern! Remember, in my OP I said I didn't want to have to layout any funds not absolutely necessary until I know these will be movers for me? So buying more T&Ds isn't really an option for me right now. And I don't know that I'd call myself a novice. I'm no Skiprat or Brian, that's for sure, but I think my experience with my equipment is adequate for the task. Now it is true that I'll be combining skills that I have not combined before, so that could prove interesting enough. :wink:




Yep, and you definitely_ can_ make a pen with those sets. The wall thickness at the end of the barrel will be quite thin, so you want to be careful of the order of operations. Best to make the male threads on the barrel before drilling and tapping for the female threads. You can make a collar and screw it on the male threads to strengthen the tenon when you drill and tap it, or another quicker method of strengthening is to simply wrap the tenon tight with masking tape to strengthen it.


----------



## alamocdc (Aug 26, 2012)

Robert111 said:


> You can make a collar and screw it on the male threads to strengthen the tenon when you drill and tap it, or another quicker method of strengthening is to simply wrap the tenon tight with masking tape to strengthen it.


 
Now THAT I would not have thought of until I blew 2 or 3 up! LOL! But it makes perfect sense! Thanks!!!!! I like the collar idea because it is reusable.


----------



## alamocdc (Aug 26, 2012)

skiprat said:


> Dan_F said:
> 
> 
> > Mine says M12x2,4 (P-0.8), .
> ...


 
Steven, with all due respect, could it possibly be because most of us are NOT machinists? :wink::laugh:


----------



## skiprat (Aug 26, 2012)

alamocdc said:


> skiprat said:
> 
> 
> > Dan_F said:
> ...


 
Billy, I'm a High Voltage Switchgear ( upto 500 000V ) Service Engineer.
A glorified 'sparky' . An electrician....Not a machinist
I certainly didn't mean anything by that comment. But there are dozens of members here that really 'could' have pointed it out. Instead of lurking in the background, why don't they jump in and teach all of us??? Those are the ones that my comment was aimed at. :wink:


----------



## alamocdc (Aug 26, 2012)

I didn't take it as an offense, Steven. And I didn't mean for my reponse to seem so terse either. Hence the laughing smiley. I based my "machinists" remark more on the fact that you tend to work primarily in metals. That makes you the closest thing to a machinist I know. LOL!


----------



## Rich L (Aug 26, 2012)

skiprat said:


> Dan_F said:
> 
> 
> > Mine says M12x2,4 (P-0.8), .
> ...



Let me laugh, too. 

I think it's the notation that got me a little for two reasons. 1) I don't use any mult-lead taps/dies (but I do multi-lead threading) so the discussion is on a little tangent for me, and 2) the markings, if Dan is accurate, are mixed. European markings use commas instead of decimal points and the notation on Dan's taps is mixed. Should be M12x2,4 (P-0,8). I just kinda rolled my eyes at it and moved on. In the machining world the 
"lead" is actually the feed/rev provided through gearing or servos to the "lead" screw be it that lead screw thing under your lathe carriage or in the case of automated machines, the Z-axis ball screw. So the "lead" is actually a number that is used in machining threads. "Pitch" is used for thread depth but for single lead threads the numbers are the same and interchangeable.

Make sense?

Cheers,
Rich

Steven, I'm calling you Sparky from now on. :biggrin:


----------



## alamocdc (Aug 26, 2012)

Rich L said:


> Dan_F said:
> 
> 
> > Mine says M12x2,4 (P-0.8), .
> ...


 
LOL! Rich, all I could think when I read this was, "Huh?" So no, not one bit of sense. But then for me it doesn't have to. As long as I have the tools I need to do what I want, I'm good. But I'm sure it makes sense to those familiar with metal lathes.  BTW, my tap says exactly the same thing as Dan's.


----------



## Rich L (Aug 27, 2012)

LOL some more! That's OK. It all has to do with those stupid metal lathes and metal turning machines that make the taps and dies so you don't have to worry about a metal lathe.

Make sense?  :wink:

Cheers,
Rich


----------



## Dan_F (Aug 27, 2012)

Rich L said:


> skiprat said:
> 
> 
> > Dan_F said:
> ...



Good eye!!! It actually is a comma, which I thought was a decimal point. 

Dan


----------



## LL Woodworks (Aug 27, 2012)

alamocdc said:


> I just checked my T&Ds from back in 07 or 08 (can't remember when we did this). The T&D for the cap threads are 12x2, 4 meaning 12 mm with a pitch of 2 and 4 starts, right? Just making sure I am remembering everything correctly. O also got an additional 10x1 tap for the section. No die because as I remember, most of us had planned on using the sections from the El Grande (at least I think that was the one) and that is the cut on that section.
> 
> This is just a sanity check since it's been so long.
> 
> One more thing, is anyone selling these sections, or am I better off just making my own? And if the latter is the case, who is selling the feeds (and nibs, of course)? I know there are several selling nibs, I just don't recall seeing anything on the feeds. But I'll cruise the classifieds to see what I can find to prove I'm not entirely helpless.:wink:



Make your own for more flexibility with materials and design, however The sections can be bought at Bear Tooth Woods - Fountain Pen Nib - El Grande | Churchill | Cambridge - Medium


----------



## alamocdc (Aug 27, 2012)

I already found them, Lynn, but thanks!


----------

