# My bad experience with a company...hopefully resolved!



## stevers (Oct 9, 2008)

I attempted to change the title to this thread but was unable to do so. I should have titled it, "My bad experience with this company!!!. I spoke in haste and should attempt contact before I go any further. Thank You.


Hi All,
I posted this thread on this topic. Please read this post. I wanted to post it in it's own topic to be sure you all see it. This story is hard to believe. It just helps to remind me why I've made this site my second home. I "usually" do business with companies I find here or know from past experience. I decided to step outside the box and "almost" got bit in the behind for it.

I received my machine yesterday. It was not the happy moment I had hoped for.

First off, UPS showed up at my door at *"9:30"* at night. That on it's own is ridiculous. UPS has long been known around here as "unbelievable package smashers". And more often than not, behind schedule on deliveries. 

Next thing, the company I ordered the machine from was new to me. Not suggested or recommended by anyone here on this site. With that said, the photos below are what I found when I opened the package.

The machine was just tossed in the box. The box was not meant for the machine, it was modified to fit it. The miscellaneous parts, like the wheel, the paste, the tray and the knobs were just tossed in the box. To top it all off, the machine has paint on it, and this paint is still wet. The fourth image shows the paint. The last image shows the box with the machine out. 

The machine is in proper working order. For that reason and others, I am going to keep it. Other reasons being, I'm afraid if I return it, I will not get one back. It's pretty obvious the company is either small time or just doesn't care about reputation or customer service. And for the price, I'm afraid I wont be able find the deal anywhere else.

So, the best thing I can do is warn all of you about this company. I will definitely not use them again. And I would not recommend them to any one. They are called "Cyber Woodworking Depot LLC" and are located at www.ToolCenter.com.


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## maxwell_smart007 (Oct 9, 2008)

Checked the BBB, but no reports have been filed...time to fix that! 
http://central-westernma.bbb.org/WWWRoot/Report.aspx?site=167&bbb=0261&firm=210658


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## tbroye (Oct 9, 2008)

When I got mine from Amazon it came packed in the original box with all the packing material inside the amazon box and packing material. I have been on their site and thought about buying some accessories for it but will sitck with the more expensive Tormek Jigs and accessories I get at Woodcraft. I am sorry you had such a bad experience. Maybe UPS repacked after the original packaging was damaged.  Just read you other post.  I bet UPS repackaged it after the blue paint from another package go all over the original maybe in a accident of some type.


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## LEAP (Oct 9, 2008)

Thats wild, looks like somebody that just does not geve a damn. I've had that site bookmarked for a while but have not bought anything, guess I'll just delete that one.


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## stevers (Oct 9, 2008)

tbroye said:


> When I got mine from Amazon it came packed in the original box with all the packing material inside the amazon box and packing material.  I have been on their site and thought  about buying some accessories for it but will sitck with the more expensive Tormek Jigs and accessories I get at Woodcraft.  I am sorry you had such a bad experience.  Maybe UPS repacked after the original packaging was damaged



Hadn't thought of that. But shouldn't UPS inform me of such a thing? At least mark the box as re-packaged? 

The more I look at the box, the more it looks like someone did this from their garage. The tape is put on sloppy, the little white tag from the beginning of the roll is there. The tape is folded and sloppy. The box was cut down and overlapped at the flaps. It looks like it was cut with a razor knife. 
The whole thing just leaves a really bad taste in my mouth. Even if it was a mistaken shipment, how could they let this out of their shipping department. As soon as I picked up the box, I knew something didn't feel right. It felt out of balance and felt like something was banging around in it.

And I realize some of you may feel I jumped the gun with this post. But it is simply unacceptable in my book. Mistake or not, it should never have happened this way.


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## stevers (Oct 9, 2008)

I'm going to call them Friday. I have the day off.


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## Sfolivier (Oct 9, 2008)

Don't want to be playing devil's advocate here, but it's not really fair to complain about how bad they are until you actually talk to them... Right now you're not sure about what happened and what they are willing to do about it.


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## stevers (Oct 9, 2008)

I just sent them this E-mail with pictures. We'll see what happens from here.

To Whom it May Concern,
 I received my order on Tuesday the 7th. When I opened the box, this is what  I found. (see attachments). I don't know if this how you do business, but I am  quite disappointed in this transaction. It looks like someone packed this  product in their basement, or maybe it was a return and you just pasted my  shipping label on it and sent it out. There is gray paint on the unit and on the  cord, not to mention all over the inside of the box. The parts are unpackaged  and tossed in the box loosely. 

 I would like to know what you intend to do to resolve this issue. The  machine is in working order and all of the parts are accounted for. I just don't  understand how you could let something like this out of your doors. My  understanding was that this was a "new" product.

 Steve Swiger


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## MesquiteMan (Oct 9, 2008)

I buy my Lenox bandsaw blades from them and have had nothing but good service and proper packing.  Maybe it is UPS that did it.


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## bitshird (Oct 9, 2008)

Remember Steve, United Parcel Smashers handled the box. you should have seen the first flast screen monitor I got that was shipped UPS, They tried to deny the claim "improper packaging for shipment, IT was in the factory box, had never been opened and managed to get to the USA from Japan, they couldn't explain why it looked like a forklift fork went through the box, Only ship through them in an Armor plated spray foam filled box.


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## nwcatman (Oct 9, 2008)

now you know how i felt when i got a lathe from grizzly a coupla years ago. parts were literally sticking out through the sides of the box, parts were rolling around in other boxes unwrapped and unprotected. was amazing the lack of care. they shipped heavy iron parts in cheap cardboard boxes w/no protection. i too thought maybe it had been repacked by someone else so i called em and their attitude was "well, you got the lathe and we will replace the damaged parts so whats the problem, just call the this #".   which directed me to another #  etc etc.  guess we all get burned every once in awhile.


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## hughbie (Oct 9, 2008)

my first step would have been to file a damaged item with UPS and then contact the supplier...

wow........i'm speachless


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## stevers (Oct 9, 2008)

OK, this all begs the question,,,,,,,,where did the gray paint come from???

If UPS re-packed the box, where did the paint come from?


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## rjwolfe3 (Oct 9, 2008)

Maybe someone else's package that they tore up as well?


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## stevers (Oct 9, 2008)

Wow, A two for one.

I still suspect it was some kind of screw up and it is someones return. It's packed like something a person would pack that's really upset or disappointed with a product. If it was UPS, I'm pretty much screwed. They are one of the least cooperative companies I've seen. The oldest son filed a claim on something broken and it was like an act of congress to get results. And if I remember, they denied him anyway. 
Customer service is just a lost cause.


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## Daniel (Oct 9, 2008)

Looking at it I would guess the UPS stuck your machine into a container of paint. tossed it all in a box because nobody wanted to deal with the mess and nobody said anything.


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## stevers (Oct 9, 2008)

Daniel said:


> Looking at it I would guess the UPS stuck your machine into a container of paint. tossed it all in a box because nobody wanted to deal with the mess and nobody said anything.



Sounds about right. Pass the buck. Look the other way. "I didn't do it".


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## babyblues (Oct 9, 2008)

I would tend to believe that UPS did it.  They stand to lose the least and probably care the least about the whole situation.  As far as sending stuff like a lathe in a cardboard box...do you know how much abuse those boxes can take?  Quite a bit as a matter of fact.  I know because I've tried to kick the crap out of one for fun and just about sprained my ankle.

I ordered a dust collector from Amazon and it looked like the box had been thrown around.  Part of the housing was even bent.  Those boxes are pretty darn tough and that particular one was quite heavy.  I still can't figure out how it got so mangled.  It must have been dropped more than once and probably squashed at the bottom of a pretty big pile of other boxes like it.  I have never been impressed with UPS anyway, but I'm sure there are many people with horror stories about every shipping company.


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## monkeynutz (Oct 10, 2008)

The paint didn't come from UPS.  It's not BROWN.


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## jeffj13 (Oct 10, 2008)

Steve,

Steve,  please don't take this as a criticism, it is not intended to be.  Most people react just as you are.  Having been in the receiving end of these encounters, I know the approach you have taken really doesn't work in most cases.  I'm just trying to help you get what you want.

I work in the area of my company that handles customer complaints.  I read your e-mail to the company and I'm not sure that you have helped yourself in getting this resolved.  While you can't unring that bell, your letter is harsh and accusatory, when you really don't know where the problem was caused.  It does not really provide the company enough information to effective help you.  For example, you did not tell them who the shipper was (Yes, I know they could look that up, but if you help them, they are more likely to help you.)  Frankly, you have made it very easy for them to say "Not our problem, contact the shipper".

I know that you are upset (I might be too), but you will get more accomplished if your letter takes a professional, business tone, avoids accusation or insults, specifically defines your concerns and suggests a specific, reasonable course of action that the company should take, rather then simply asking them "what are they are going to do about it".  For example, if you believe that you received a return, gently state that and ask them to take it back and ship you a new machine.  If the machine works fine, if some mineral spirits will take care of the paint and you don't want the hassle of going through a return, ask them if they will credit you the shipping costs.  Most companies (especially good ones and based upon other posts, this one is) will bend over backwards to satisfy a customer provided the customer's request is reasonable.

I saw where you are going to call the company today.  My one piece of advise would be don't insult or demean the person at the other end of the phone (they are just the messenger of the higher ups)and don't raise your voice (I guess that is two things).  Speaking from personal experience, the louder someone gets, the less willing I am to want to help them.  If you don't get satisfaction from the first person you speak with, politely ask to speak with a supervisor (it is important to say "a supervisor" instead of "your supervisor" so the person doesn't think you want to get them in trouble.  It makes it more likely that you will be transferred).  One more thing.  Get the persons name you're speaking with at the beginning of the call and use it throughout the call.  It helps build a relationship between caller and callee.  Asking for their name later in the call can make the person feel as if you only want their name to report them and get them in trouble and it will create a more adversarial situation.

Good luck.

jeff


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## Rifleman1776 (Oct 10, 2008)

As long as you are stating facts, I see not problem stating the name of a company you are unhappy with. Doing so is a help to others here.
And, I do agree about UPS. I avoid whenever possible. My wife is a bell collector and when someone she buys from ships via UPS, the boxes are, invariably crushed and mangled when they arrive. FedEx and USPS give far superior service, in my experience.
From the looks, that could be the same sharpener asked about in another thread here. Only, it is offered by Harbor Freight.


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## TellicoTurning (Oct 10, 2008)

bitshird said:


> Remember Steve, United Parcel Smashers handled the box. you should have seen the first flast screen monitor I got that was shipped UPS, They tried to deny the claim "improper packaging for shipment, IT was in the factory box, had never been opened and managed to get to the USA from Japan, they couldn't explain why it looked like a forklift fork went through the box, Only ship through them in an Armor plated spray foam filled box.



I don't know if they still contract out some of their carriage, but a number of years back when I worked for a major air carrier on the west coast, we had a contract with UPS to handle shipments from Speigel and other mail order houses.  Shortly before Christmas one year, when I got to work on my regular shift, I saw a pile, and I mean a pile, not a neat stack or even a sloppy stack, litteraly a jumbled pile of boxes in a corner of the warehouse that was 20 or so feet out from the wall and nearly as high up the wall... all UPS boxes that the shift supervisor had instructed the cargo handlers to "just unload the igloos and toss the boxes in the corner... UPS will pick up on the night shift"... it looked like the cargo was being handled with a front end loader and a bulldozer.   

If they are still contracting the loads, maybe UPS isn't the culprit.  Personally, I've always had good luck with them and I did shipping and receiving professionally for over 40 years.
On occasion we would get some damage, especially if the freight wasn't properlly packaged.  I've received numerous shipments that were too heavy for the carton they were packed in, but really and truly very little actual loss due to UPS handling.

They actually have a pretty sophisticated system of handling cargo, As does Fedex and the USPS... they all use the same basic system of sorting and routing.


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## wolftat (Oct 10, 2008)

Several years ago, I ordered a new laptop from an unnamed company. The UPS driver left it(supposedly) on my front steps, even though I have an enclosed front porch. My father was visiting at the time and after I filed a complaint and a claim, the driver came back to my house and gave my father a sob story and asked if he had seen a laptop. Since we have 4 or 5 laptops around, my father sid yes and signed the paper. This let UPS off the hook, but the company that I bought it from wasn't going to get paid so they went a bit further and sent me a replacement and went after UPS for it. My point is, they are slimy and not to be trusted. I have since stopped using them unless all else fails and even then I am very uncomfortable until I know the package has made it. I won't even start to tell you the stories I hear from friends that work for them, like the package kicking contests.


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## stevers (Oct 10, 2008)

OK Folks here is Where we stand,
Jeff, you are correct, I tend to overreact in these situations. Thanks for the perspective.
Frank, thanks for the works of support.
Chuck, you must be in a good area for UPS. I'm sure each region has diff results and practices. Our region happens to be one of them that doesn't seem to care much. 

I called CWD an hour ago. The situation is resolved as much as it can be for now. I talked with a fella named Don. He first told me that he suspected his shipping department. He thought they may have sent out a demo product. He told me a new machine would be on it's way as soon as possible. 5 minutes later he called back and told me he talked to his shipping department and they deny sending out anything not packaged like new. He asked me to send him some photos. He gave me an E-mail address that will work for this purpose.  Meaning a address that will accept the photos. I sent them and he quickly replied saying thanks. 15 minutes later he called again and we talked for a few minutes. He noticed the state which the label was processed in was Arizona. This told him the box was "repackaged" in Az. He then proceeded to tell me a "new" machine will be on the way ASAP. He told me to hang on to the damaged one until they decide what to do. This may be to ship it back, it may be to have UPS pick it up for a claim or it may be to just keep it. 
So bottom line is, UPS strikes again. 
Cyber Woodworking Depot has done their best to resolve the issue. I feel they did a wonderful job resolving it. 

I apologize to CWD for the accusations. I should have investigated further before I made them.

I also apologize to any of you who feel I offended anyone. These situations tend to get me fired up and I act without thinking. Once I calm down, I usually think it out and it works out. I actually waited a couple of days before posting this info. I guess I didn't wait quite long enough.


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## maxwell_smart007 (Oct 10, 2008)

Glad it was all sorted out, Steve!  If nothing else, this post is going to give CWD a bit of exposure...I had never heard of them before, but I've got their website open now...

This might be a good lesson for all of us, though - post warnings with a clear head, after a problem is resolved...not before!  

Perhaps a moderator could change the title of this thread for you?


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## tbroye (Oct 10, 2008)

While I have always had good luck with UPS.  Some of the packages look pretty rough when the get here.  FEDEX and USPS are good also  DHL they should blow it up.  I refuse to buy anything shipped by DHL.  Glad you got satisfaction.  I tend to go off the deep end on something like this but I calm down pretty fast and usually can get thing straightend out fairly quickly.


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## wolftat (Oct 10, 2008)

I still don't like UPS. Glad you got somewhere with your problem though.


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## Blind_Squirrel (Oct 10, 2008)

> Cyber Woodworking Depot has done their best to resolve the issue. I feel they did a wonderful job resolving it.
> 
> I apologize to CWD for the accusations. I should have investigated further before I made them.



Steve, 

I suggest asking a moderator to change the title of the post...


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## stevers (Oct 10, 2008)

maxwell_smart007 said:


> Glad it was all sorted out, Steve!  If nothing else, this post is going to give CWD a bit of exposure...I had never heard of them before, but I've got their website open now...
> 
> This might be a good lesson for all of us, though - post warnings with a clear head, after a problem is resolved...not before!
> 
> Perhaps a moderator could change the title of this thread for you?





Blind_Squirrel said:


> Steve,
> 
> I suggest asking a moderator to change the title of the post...



Already done fellas. He told me he'd have it done when he gets home this eve.
Thanks for the support.


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## stevers (Oct 10, 2008)

Thank you Curtis. That's much better. 

I just went out and played with the TiGer 2000 on a 1" bench chisel. Without changing the stone to 1000 grit with the stone grader, I can shave hair off my arm. Not to mention, nick my finger and make it bleed. Just a tiny nick. But it was just a touch. WOW! I'm impressed. I was worried because the first thing I tried was my Sorby skew. It worked OK but not as well as I had hoped. Well, using the right jig on the inteneded tool is the trick. 

I'll post a full review on a new thread later.


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## wdcav1952 (Oct 10, 2008)

Steve, it is easy to get mad, as all of us know.  It takes guts to stand up and apologize.  Nice work!


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## Daniel (Oct 11, 2008)

I work in two different warehouses, and operate three different fork lifts. Had I gotten this package I would have immediately thought that someone with UPS ran my package into another one hard enough to destroy the original package of my machine and sticking that corner of the machine into another package that had paint in it. with a fork lift that is not hard to do at all. it  is not much more than a bump. My first action would have been to call UPS and tell them my goods where damaged and had been repacked so that when I took delivery of it there was no sign that it would be damaged. UPS does say that you should open your package and inspect everything before you sign for it but I have never had them require that  for a claim.  At work they do not like us much because we do and it can take a very long time when there are 50 or 60 packages being received. But we have simply had to many instances just like this that they will repack something and not put a sticker on it or anything.


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## stevers (Oct 11, 2008)

Daniel said:


> I work in two different warehouses, and operate three different fork lifts. Had I gotten this package I would have immediately thought that someone with UPS ran my package into another one hard enough to destroy the original package of my machine and sticking that corner of the machine into another package that had paint in it. with a fork lift that is not hard to do at all. it  is not much more than a bump. My first action would have been to call UPS and tell them my goods where damaged and had been repacked so that when I took delivery of it there was no sign that it would be damaged. UPS does say that you should open your package and inspect everything before you sign for it but I have never had them require that  for a claim.  At work they do not like us much because we do and it can take a very long time when there are 50 or 60 packages being received. But we have simply had to many instances just like this that they will repack something and not put a sticker on it or anything.



And it doesn't help when they don't even ask for a signature, or just leave it on your stoop. This fella walked up to my fence, handed the box over the fence to me and turned around and got in his truck and drove away. Of course, I could have asked him to wait while I opened the box, but I didn't do that. So that part of the situation is my fault. But how many times do we receive shipments and how many of those times do we check the contents. When I speak for myself, it's not many. I would like to say I will change that, but 90% of my UPS and Fed-X shipments come while we are at work. And if I make a stink about not being able to inspect them, they will only be able to deliver when we are home. So I may never get my shipments. Sort of a catch 22.


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## TellicoTurning (Oct 11, 2008)

Steve,

I may be a little biased towards the small package carriers after all the years I worked in warehousing/traffic and transportation and I don't mean to belabor the point.  I have a fair knowledge of their inner workings.  As companies they all tend to be very aware of the customer service aspect and work very hard on their service features.  Like any other company, I'm sure they have employees that just want to draw a paycheck, and not earn it, nor give a damn about what they do... we had them at TWA when I was there, and at every other forwarding company I worked for... usually, they didn't last long, but in union shops, it's much more difficult to weed out the dead wood and dunderheads.  We had some really bizarre rules for dealing with our union people at TWA.  Most of the small package companies are unionized.

On most residence deliveries, Fedex, UPS, DHL, USPS and others whose names escape me right now.. have the policy that unless a signature is requested from the shipper or the package is insured, they leave the package.  If signature is required, they have to leave a notice if you are not home. And you are then required to make arrangements to be available for the delivery.  Signatures are required for insured packages, certified mail and where signature is required by shipper.  Not all drivers use the best judgment in where they leave a package and some that know they screwed try to cover their behind.

The drivers are timed on their deliveries... they cannot wait around for us to open and inspect packages... best they can do is let you do cursory check of the outside of the package, if damaged, you can make notation of receipt of a damaged package.  If they spend too much time at a facility during pick up or delivery, they get penalized, reprimanded or whatever the company's policy is. 

Even on truck deliveries to a warehouse where a signature is almost always required, the most we could do at the time of delivery was make cursory inspection of package, count the number we were signing for and if inside damage found later, file a claim.   And a claim may or may not actually be handled by the carrier directly... often they have an outside company, particularly an insurance company, handling the claim and their first knee jerk reaction to any claim is to deny.. 

In my 40+ years in the traffic and transportation industry, I've had for the most part pretty good service out of all of the small package companies not always stellar, but pretty good overall... and considering the number of packages they handle in a day, their loss/damage ratios are relatively small.

All of that said, I also know the frustration you feel when you personally are on the receiving end of that small error ratio.  Been there and done that.  I'm glad this all worked out for you... I'll shut up now and stay out of this conversation any further.  

We'll be looking forward to your product review on the new sharpener.


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## stevers (Oct 11, 2008)

Chuck, 
You are more than welcome into this conversation. I like to hear from someone with experience in the matter. 
Like my wife said, they do so much business, a few claims is not going to hurt the over all numbers. 
I know all about the few bad apples. We tend to have a little over the average where I live. But for all I know, that is the way things are these days. A buddy of mine at work calls them the "Entitlement Generation". They feel the world owes them something. I remember when you had to earn your something. 
And that's the other thing. Companies are so worried about the all mighty dollar, they push their employees too hard. Where I work, they keep cutting personnel and funds, but dump more work and responsibility on us. Hows that fair? I know, don't answer that. 
Anyway, thanks for the input Chuck. 
I am in the process of making a knife jig for the sharpener. I just can't pay $35 or $40 for one jig right now. the first jig I will probably buy is the stone truing jig anyway.


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## stevers (Oct 17, 2008)

Just a quick update. The new machine (Tiger 2000) showed up today (Friday). It came beat up, but intact. And this time in factory packaging. 

Cyber Tool Depot has done everything I could have asked for in this matter. Quickly and honestly.


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## beck3906 (Oct 18, 2008)

I ordered a new EZ-Up 2 weeks ago from an internet company. I was told there were only 5 available which I ultimately determined to mean was that EZ-Up itself only had 5 available for drop shipment.  I had it delivered to my office so there would be someone there to accept the delivery.

I was provided the tracking number and I saw it was to be delivered this past Monday.  I checked the status and learned that it actually was "attempted" delivery on Monday at 1:05.  However, the tracking information said the shipment was returned because of damage.  I checked with my shipping department and they had no knowledge that the delivery was rejected by anyone in our office.

Our shipping clerk checked with the UPS delivery person the next day and was told that the local distribution warehouse had rejected the package because of damage and missing parts.  The package was immediately returned to the shipper (EZ-Up).  I contacted the company I purchased the EZ-Up from and was told I would have to wait until the damaged item was received back and they could then ship another.  My allternatvie was to pay for a second one and they would credit my credit card when the first one was returned.

There was a smalll discussion and the company decided it would release a second unit without the first returning as UPS had full custody of the item and it could be shown that I had never accepted the item.  Hopefully, this one will arrive in a reasonable condition


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