# Kitless conundrum



## studioso (Jan 31, 2012)

motivated by some of the great members of this forum, I too started doing some kitless pens.
so far I've done 3 eeerr... "prototypes", which came out pretty good, (I'll soon post them for all to "admire".
however, despite the immense satisfaction of kitless pens, and the enormous sense of accomplishment gained from every little detail I learn, skill I hone, all thanks to what I've picked up here at IAP, I get the feedback that to the non-turner, AKA the potential costumer, a baron or a statesman looks more prestigious, AKA expensive, than my plastic kitless.

in other words, when I show my pens around, people like my kitless, they sort of appreciate that it was done by hand and everything, but when they'll carry it around it not as flashy as an amboyna burl, or a buckeye.

basically, for us penturners, we get it: a kitless rules. but for everyone else, especially before they realise that the exact component pen you made can be  had elsewhere, probably for less $$$, a kitless looks like nothing different that a fancy pen they can get a store.

what are your thoughts?


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## BRobbins629 (Jan 31, 2012)

There is definitely demand for both styles and each will appeal to a different audience. At a fountain pen show, a well made kitless pen will likely attract more buyers. At a craft show, the kit pens will likely be the winner. Bottom line - know your market if you are selling. If its a hobby, choose whatever you like.


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## Andrew_K99 (Jan 31, 2012)

It comes down to what the people know about pens. Pens embelished with gold accents and rhodium (nice words that'll impress them) will seem higher end then a "plastic kitless" as you called it. People associate 'plastic' with being cheap, I'd try using more correct terms to explain your materials and/or use higher end materials (IE Ebonite, Lucite, Italian Acrylic to name a few). Also as mentioned, your market will affect what they think.

AK


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## GoodTurns (Jan 31, 2012)

studioso said:


> in other words, when I show my pens around, people like my kitless, they sort of appreciate that it was done by hand and everything, but when they'll carry it around it not as flashy as an amboyna burl, or a buckeye.



Is there a rule somewhere that kitless, er non-component, pens must be plastic?  the threaded area is the only "issue" and you can work around that with inserts....


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## PenMan1 (Jan 31, 2012)

I have the same problem, Alex. We do mostly art shows and fine Jewelry shows. People always oooh and aah over and buy the much higher priced component pens (we do a good bit of customization on these), but mostly, our customers could care LESS about the kitless pens.

We tried different marketing strategies, including increasing the price on the kitless pens and emphasizing "one of a kind, custom", and this approach only made them "customerless" pens.

How these pens sell CERTAINLY DEPENDS ON YOUR MARKET! I am selling more fountain pens than at any other time, but the real "collectors" are still few AND my collectors LIVE FOR BLING.

In the immortal words of my friend, Oklahoman......"VENUE, VENUE, VENUE". Research your market and try to make the products that sell best for you. I think that shows limited to "pen shows" would be the best market for all hand-made pens.

Respectfully submitted.


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## bensoelberg (Jan 31, 2012)

Here are some threads showing wooden kitless pens.


http://www.penturners.org/forum/f13/pith-timebandit-r-u-freaking-kidding-90525/

http://www.penturners.org/forum/f13/wooden-rollerball-scallops-91337/

http://www.penturners.org/forum/f13/walnut-ebony-roller-ball-wooden-pen-91450/


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## Chasper (Jan 31, 2012)

Kitless is a non-starter for me as well.  We do lots of shows, most are high end art shows, other are more mid-range craft fairs.  I tried to sell closed end and kitless with little success.  They make great pens to give away, but for me they don't sell.


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## SCR0LL3R (Jan 31, 2012)

I can appreciate all the work and skill that goes into making them, but in my eyes, they don't look as good as a nice kit pen. That's not to say I don't like them... just not as much as the nicer kits.


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## studioso (Jan 31, 2012)

bensoelberg said:


> Here are some threads showing wooden kitless pens.
> 
> 
> http://www.penturners.org/forum/f13/pith-timebandit-r-u-freaking-kidding-90525/
> ...



One step at a time, bensoelberg, one step at a time!


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## srf1114 (Jan 31, 2012)

Chasper said:


> Kitless is a non-starter for me as well.  We do lots of shows, most are high end art shows, other are more mid-range craft fairs.  I tried to sell closed end and kitless with little success.  They make great pens to give away, but for me they don't sell.



How do you get into the high end art shows without a good selection of Kit-less pens? 

Now I know the difference between juried art show and non juried,  How ever aren't most High End Art shows Juried? and dont most high end shows have requirements about kit art work?

I am looking into attending 3-4 different Juried Art show in my area. Each one of them state explicitly no kit made pieces.  Unfortunately their doesn't seems to be a middle ground in my area. I can go to the craft show and set next to the old lady who is selling crocheted Doilies, or try and get in to a Juried shows who may reject my kit pens.


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## azamiryou (Jan 31, 2012)

I find that my 100% handmade pens help customers feel comfortable buying my "commercial component" pens. It's like they can't buy the completely handmade pen - too expensive - but they are delighted that they _can_ buy a pen from a guy who makes completely handmade pens.

That said, my goal is still to shift most of my business over to the kitless end. It's more fun!


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## BSea (Jan 31, 2012)

studioso said:


> basically, for us penturners, we get it: a kitless rules.


  I think you've hit the nail on the head.  _*We get it*_.  I've made one kitless pen, but have plans to do several more.  But when people look at my pens, I just about have to make them look at the kitless.  Even then, they hardly give it a 2nd look, even after they understand that it's a made from scratch pen vrs one made from components.

Frankly, I'm not in this for the money.  I make what I like to make.  If some sell, then that's fine.  If not, no big deal.


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## Haynie (Jan 31, 2012)

Each craftsman should have their own vision of the level of craft they  want to attain.  I know from experience how hard it is to create a  componentless pen.  I have yet to be successful.  That being said, if you lined all of the componentless pens up on  this site a majority of them would look almost the same.  A few would  stand out but most probably seem rather humdrum to folks unfamiliar with  what it takes to make a componentless pen.  I will freely admit that my  first reaction to a componentless pen was "wow, what a boring ass pen."   Then I tried to make one.  At that point the boring ass pen's creator  became a dude with serious skeelz and I was able to appreciate the pen  more, not on looks but the level of skill needed to make it in general.  In fact I admire every componentless pen that is posted mainly because these pens exceed my current level of craftsmanship.

Now enters the design aspect of the pen.  As a consumer and appreciator  of pens I think there are lots of folks who need to start stepping out  of their comfort zones.  They need grow from turners of componentless pens to creators of well designed pens.  As of right now, could it be that from a design standpoint, and in the eyes of your consumers, the componentless pens are just boring ass pens?  Are the component pens able to achieve a higher more desirable level of design?

A photographer friend of mine says that if an image is boring to look at, it does not matter what process was used to create it.

I am probably going to catch grief for this but will stand by what I have typed.


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## Chasper (Jan 31, 2012)

srf1114 said:


> Chasper said:
> 
> 
> > Kitless is a non-starter for me as well.  We do lots of shows, most are high end art shows, other are more mid-range craft fairs.  I tried to sell closed end and kitless with little success.  They make great pens to give away, but for me they don't sell.
> ...



Just because not all of the pens I make and sell are kitless, doesn't mean that many of the pictures that I submit to the juries are not of kitless, semi-kitless or modified kits.  I like to call them component pens not kit pens.

There is a lot of creativity possible in a component pen.  Creativity, handwork, artistry and a sense of excitement is what the juries are looking for.  I choose to believe that "no kit rules" are directed at the paint by numbers pseudo-artists.  I've been rejected by juries and maybe it is because I use components, but I've also been accepted in many top shows, and when the jury committee comes by to make sure what I'm showing at the show is what I showed them in the pictures they have always been satisfied.  The few kitless pens I have are still there when the jury comes by, no chance someone would have bought them.


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## ed4copies (Jan 31, 2012)

We did juried art & craft shows for 15 years.  I showed ONLY component-made pens.  We were in the highest price shows in Chicago.  

The pens we showed in our "entry packet" were made of hand-turned, imported resins, some of which were embellished with engraving.   Our acceptance rate was over 90%.

In fairness, Dawn was a stained glass artist, with awards to prove her exceptional talent.  We came as a 3-4 booth "package deal".  Our checks were always good.


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## TerryDowning (Jan 31, 2012)

Haynie,

You're not wrong. That being said, there is something to be said for sleek, clean lines with no bling.

I think the trick here is defining "well designed". 

IMHO, first and foremost, the pen has to write like a champ in the hands of the user. If you can't write with it, it's useless. After that?? well, isn't it architectural preference?? Personally, I can't stand the Broadwell series of pens. I'm not a big fan of the Majestic pens either. I just don't like the shapes or the lines they seem very pretentious to me.  Others consider these to be top of the line. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and if you are selling pens, then beauty is in the eye of the customer and you need to shift your perspective accordingly.

At this point in my pen turning endeavors, I only care about 2 peoples opinion. Mine and my Wife's. Beyond that, it's just icing on the cake.

My last pen was OK, no masterpiece to be certain.  I posted it not for a brag (well, maybe a little bit of a brag) but Really I want honest constructive criticism and feedback from other pen makers.

Just my thoughts on the subject.


Terry


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## cnirenberg (Jan 31, 2012)

I had some pens (yes I really do make 'em) that some people at work wanted to look at around Christmas time.  I had a variety of 'kitless' and some 'component made' (Ed, I must agree, I like this term beter than the kit-word).  I got some likes and dislikes, as well as, a lot of, this one is too fat, no clip, where's the clip, where is all the shiny bits, blah blah blah.  Nothing could change their minds that one took 3 times as long to make, with no plans, no parts laying around in a baggie, from the melon to the lathe.  In the end they loved their Diplomat/Sierra pen.  Whoopee.  Can't win them all.


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## studioso (Jan 31, 2012)

Chasper, of course beauty is a matter of opinion, and not all kitless are interesting,
, but how can one look at a pen by texatdurango, Wizard, timebandit and many more members here without gasping? I like their pens here many times more that a boring, black 600$ montblanc, and even over the old Parker's and similar pens that many collector spend their days dreaming of.


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## randyrls (Jan 31, 2012)

srf1114 said:


> How do you get into the high end art shows without a good selection of Kit-less pens?
> 
> set next to the old lady who is selling crocheted Doilies, or try and get in to a Juried shows who may reject my kit pens.



Stanley;  I believe you are being harder on yourself than necessary.  While the kit makes it easier to create a quality pen, the amount of skill and artistry comes from you.

Try some semi-kit-less and closed-end pens.  I find the easiest pen to make closed end is the Baron.  It turns well and can be made from either wood or acrylic.  The hidden clip is a good touch to learn.  You can also mix and match pen components between kits.


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## drgoretex (Feb 1, 2012)

I can believe completely that the kit pens attract more attention than the kitless, most of the time.  People really, really dig 'bling'.  And some of the kit pens are extravagantly beautiful, no question.

It is really within particular communities that you will find people leaning toward the kitless pens.  For instance, for fountain pen 'afficionados', there is simply no question but that a kitless pen is the way to go.  However, most of my friends don't get that at all, and prefer the kits I have done.

Ken


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## avbill (Feb 1, 2012)

Whether Kit-less  or Kit Pen its your attitude that sales the pen.  It just received a email newsletter from Mont Blanc.  with there NEW lines of kit-less pens  Their prices started at 450 to 1200 dollars.  and they, Monte Blanc has NO problem selling kit-less.  

I just got back from a desert Art show.  My show stopper  was a abalone Emperor pen. yes a kit. for 750 dollars   It made all the kit-less pens all great at 300 dollars and they did buy them!!  

its all in your attitude about what you think.... your attitude!


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## azamiryou (Feb 2, 2012)

avbill said:


> Whether Kit-less  or Kit Pen its your attitude that sales the pen.  It just received a email newsletter from Mont Blanc.  with there NEW lines of kit-less pens  Their prices started at 450 to 1200 dollars.  and they, Monte Blanc has NO problem selling kit-less.



I agree that attitude is a big part of it.

That said, I don't think the salesperson's attitude is what sells Montblanc pens. What sells a Montblanc is the name and the design.

Most of us are a long ways from having the reputation and name recognition Montblanc has. Design, however is within our grasp. I've seen some absolutely stunning kitless pens here at IAP, so it's clear it _can_ be done.


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## avbill (Feb 2, 2012)

There are many master craftsmen that turn pens here that make Montblanc pens look sick.  If your not anywhere close to the craftsmanship of a montblanc pen then start studying them  look, feel them  redefine your finishing process  take steps to achieve a higher standard than the one you have now.  Again its attitude.  Go for it!  Set your goal to achieve a reasonable higher goal in craftsmanship!   One day you will be there and with the right attitude  that day will bee soon!


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