# Can I do this.........



## woody350ep (Oct 4, 2008)

Alright. I have a dilemma. I have been working on modifying my CA/BLO finish to make it faster and more effective since I started having some troubles with spotty finish. I got with Brandon25 about some things and got a much faster (in my hands) finish, and a much for even one. I am STILL having a problem with my PlastX now though. I was sanding to 650 pre CA, then CA/BLO, then MM to 12000 and PlastX. Well, the PlastX actually took the MM BACK toward the dull/hazy look instead of amplifying sheen. So, I thought maybe it was my pre CA sanding, and I tried a couple today that I went all the way to 12000MM, then CA/BLO, then MM again to 12000 and PlastX.

Same thing.

It's like the PlastX wants to shine up, I can see it when I apply it and work it in. It shines up nice briefly, and then if I take a clean part of PT to wipe off, it goes to dull and hazy. It does it without wiping it off also, hazy that is.

No more spotty finish like I was having before, its ALL hazed. Am I doing something wrong with this PlastX? I apply it at 1500rpm with PT (Viva) and work it back and forth with some pressure for about 20 seconds, then TRY to wipe it off with a clean part of the PT.

Can I just leave the pen at the MM stage instead of trying to add the polish to it? Or, will it show some bad signs down the road, such as dulling down, or affecting the finish? I don't see why it would, but I would like to know what's going on here. I am hoping I am now doing this PlastX wrong and there is a simple solution.

Do you guys work the plastX into the pen while applying, or do you apply almost no pressure and just get the stuff on it and let it do its thing before wiping off?

One last thing. I am absolutely positive I am not sanding through my finish now. I took precautions of 12 coats of beautiful CA finish on my last pen today and started final sanding at 1800MM-12000, thus removing almost nothing from finish.

PLEASE PLEASE someone help me figure this out, I am getting desperate.

P.S. Sorry for the length, but its too late for that now lol


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## leehljp (Oct 4, 2008)

I have never used PlastX, only wax over CA. But often I do not use wax on CA finish. I go to 12000 and then use a chamois of even paper towel to lightly polish. It will not hurt at all to leave a 12000 MM finished pen without waxing or polishing. No it does not dull. 

ON the other hand, if you finished to 3200/3600 to keep the shine off (for a more natural wood look), continued use will shine it up at the points where the fingers rub it and also at the pen clip where it wears as it goes into the pocket. This is basically self polishing. CA doesn't dull from use but maintains its shine. CA WILL scratch from rough use, but it will not dull under normal use - in the sense of wearing the shine off. IF the shine does wear off, it will be because it has worn through to the wood.


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## thewishman (Oct 4, 2008)

Do you HAVE to use the PlastX? With your CA finish working, do you really need anything extra?


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## maxwell_smart007 (Oct 5, 2008)

I use plastx, and haven't noticed anything...i put it on with my finger, rub it in, and buff at insane speed with a soft lint-free cloth. 

Andrew


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## woody350ep (Oct 5, 2008)

Thanks Hank, do you know how long it would take someone to wear through, say, 6 coats of a CA/BLO?  Also, I have seen TSW recommended before.  Do you know anything of this?  Similar to the plastX stuff or is that completely different....

Chris - I have found that I dont need to use it, which was my question.  My finish has been working great without it, so I will be dropping that step


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## mrcook4570 (Oct 5, 2008)

I do not use anything after MM12000.   A good CA finish will last longer than the user will.


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## hilltopper46 (Oct 5, 2008)

Remember that the 'quick' in the quick CA finish is quick only is relation to other finishes.  You DO need to let the CA rest for a while before sanding.  The longer the better, overnight is good.  In my opinion, this is even more true when using BLO with the CA.  Last but not least, weather conditions can affect how fast and hard the CA sets up.  What works in one area of the country may not be true in another area.


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## woody350ep (Oct 5, 2008)

righto Tony, I was aware of that,  I let all my blanks sit before sanding to be sure as well.  Thanks though.


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## rherrell (Oct 5, 2008)

I sand right away but I let them sit overnight before buffing.


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## BruceA (Oct 6, 2008)

*More input*

Jason, 
I'm also using a CA/BLO finish.  One thing I noticed is that even with 5-6 coats on the pen, I was getting some spots where the finish was being removed when I was Micromeshing with 1500, 1800, 2400, 3200, 4000, 6000, 8000, 12000.   The 1500 and 1800 can be "agressive" on a finish.  I found that starting with 4000 kept the CA layers intact, but still polished the finish.  You might try that, and remember to keep a medium-light touch to the MM, and just use the last 4 grits.  I've also got the lathe spinning at about 1500rpm.  

On the final finish, I can tell you from my experience that the $17. for TSW (Trade Secret for Wood) is an excellent product.  Apply a small amount with a smooth paper towel (Bounty or ...) on the stationary blank, let it sit for about a minute, then polish it off with the lathe turning.  Amazing shine.  

Do a search on "Fangar Method", as this is well documented to be a successful process, and one that I have benefited from, but substituting CA/BLO for the straight CA.  I started using a sanding sealer finish as recommended - using Myland's Cellulose Sanding Sealer as a first step.  Then sand the sealed wood all the way up to your 650, but then use the Micromesh from 1500-12,000 before the CA/BLO.  

Like they say...there are 5000 ways...


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## woody350ep (Oct 6, 2008)

yeah bruce, we arent far off on our techniques.  I use 8 coats of CA/BLO, and I was starting my MM at 3200.  I did one tonight and started at 4000 like you.  I spin around 1500 also.  I have read about that TSW and have considered it.  Does it last a while?  And, I do MM to 12000 pre CA


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## BruceA (Oct 6, 2008)

*TSW as final topcoat*

Jason, 
I just started using TSW about a month ago, so don't have enough track record to tell you facts about longevity.  You should do a search here, and there are many endorsements from the veterans that may back up long term durability.

It is reported to have a "fill-in" property, where it can actually build up/fill in micro-pits in the surface, resulting in a maximum smoothness.  It's amazing stuff!

I'm not seeing the need to put anything further on after the TSW topcoat, but others here may have suggestions they've found.  

Another step you might consider is using a buffing wheel with White Diamond AFTER the MM 12,000 and BEFORE the TSW, which is what I'm doing at this point.


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## leehljp (Oct 6, 2008)

This may not be Directly related but I will post it in case it does help.

One note on "spots". If you are having spots or areas the size of a small fingernail or even half that size - then you are probably having sand through. It could be too aggressive sanding at the low end of MM but the fact that you are having a spot on one side appear - this is indicative of another problem - OOR (out of round). 

A mandrel nut too tight (sometimes forces a miniscule 'kant' into the blank and bushing), the tail stock too tight on the mandrel, a bent mandrel, a bushing OOR or drilled off center. Any of these that cause as little as .005 - .008 00R will cause one side of the blank to be highlighted. Tracking down the specific cause is a trial and error situation. (Mandrel-less eliminates the 'mandrel' problems)

IF the sand through is all the way around, then you are not having an OOR problem, just heavy sanding problem.

There IS a reason why a flat finish spot develops on one side, just need to find out why.


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## Brandon25 (Oct 6, 2008)

I'm gonna jump in here, as I've had similar problems which I've discussed with Woody. Might I ask a few followup things that may help us both?

Would accelerator reduce the need to wait for CA to harden? I'm impatient. Note, I've never used accelerator.

Would tightening the tailstock lock mechanism be a possible OOR solver? I just thought about it, and realized that I never lock my tailstock. Is there enough play in a tailstock that is extended, say, 1.5" to cause OOR and hence spotty sand-through?

Is heat, on CA/BLO application, as well as PlastX application, a good thing, bad thing, or good to a degree?

Thanks.


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## woody350ep (Oct 7, 2008)

to add to Brandon and address Hank.  I am not having issues with spots on one side or another hank, it is all over.  Also, I cannot see how I would possibly be sanding through now.  I did 8 coats of CA/BLO last night, about 8 drops per app (4 each blank) and started my MM at 4000.  Went to 12000 and then let it sit overnight.  Brandon this is where your question comes in (that thing I told you about on WN)  I don't think I am having an issue with the CA being cured either because as I said, I let it sit overnight.  I then came home from work today, nearly 24 hrs later.  I applied the PlastX then, and it did the same exact thing.  I am not getting any coloration on the PT with application of the PlastX or anything else for that matter, so that leads me to believe it is not sanded through.  Ugh........


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## NewLondon88 (Oct 7, 2008)

Have you had a chance to look at the spots under magnification? I know it
was voted down before, but it still sounds to me like a sand through. Not through to the wood, just through to a previous coat. 
If you look with a magnifier or loupe, do you see any edges? Witness lines?
This would be consistent with it not changing color, because the wood hasn't been exposed.

ps .. does anyone have a source for the TSW?  I've been told you can't get it 
anymore, but I'd love to find it..


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## greenmtnguy (Oct 7, 2008)

Arizona Silhouette has TSW  available today.


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## woody350ep (Oct 7, 2008)

hmm, I wouldnt think being through to a previous coat would matter. It is all CA right?  And if it has been MM'd it all looks the same.  I am not having spotting issues anymore, it is a whole pen issue now


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## Brandon25 (Oct 7, 2008)

NewLondon88 said:


> Have you had a chance to look at the spots under magnification? I know it
> was voted down before, but it still sounds to me like a sand through. Not through to the wood, just through to a previous coat.
> If you look with a magnifier or loupe, do you see any edges? Witness lines?
> This would be consistent with it not changing color, because the wood hasn't been exposed.
> ...




Interesting...you really think it matters that you stay on the same layer? I would think that might be really hard to EVER do. After all, isn't that the point of so many applications of CA- to eliminate sand-through? Also, if this is a real problem, how come none of the tutorials I see say anything about a really thick final coat or anything?

Not arguing, I'm genuinely ignorant and curious.


And what is TSW?


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## NewLondon88 (Oct 7, 2008)

Brandon25 said:


> Interesting...you really think it matters that you stay on the same layer? I would think that might be really hard to EVER do. After all, isn't that the point of so many applications of CA- to eliminate sand-through? Also, if this is a real problem, how come none of the tutorials I see say anything about a really thick final coat or anything?
> Not arguing, I'm genuinely ignorant and curious.
> And what is TSW?



First, TSW  (thanks for the info, Alton!) is Trade Secret for Wood..
supposed to be great stuff, only any time I go to buy it, nobody seems 
to have it in stock. 

And I don't think the question is ignorant. I don't know the answer, either
but I'm curious like you. And what I'm hearing so far makes me wonder if
it is a matter of breaking through the finish.

As for the different layers, I know nobody has mentioned it about CA, but
yes, I can see it being a possible problem. And I think the reason for so
many layers is for build, not to eliminate sand through. (but I could be
wrong on that) 

Breaking through one coat and into another coat has ALWAYS been a
problem in finishing .. unless you use shellac or lacquer. These
last two will bond to previous coats, making one thick coat. Each coat
softens the coat before it, adds itself to it and then it becomes one coat.

other finishes don't do this .. they pile on addition coats, but each coat is
a discreet layer. 20 coats of polyurethane = 20 layers. 
20 coats of shellac = 1 layer. 
20 coats of CA = 20 layers.

 This is why finishes can be difficult to sand or to rub out. If you 
break through one coat, you need to remove ALL the coats and start again
because you can always tell where you have broken through the coat. it is
referred to as a  'witness'.. it's a telltale mark.

I'm NOT saying this is what is happening .. just that it is what it sounds like
to me, and nothing I'm hearing so far is ruling it out. I just think it is still
a possibility.

And, as for not hearing about it  hell, we're all still working out our finishes
here ..  even the people making some of the tutorials are just showing us
how they make it work for them.  But how many of the 'experts' will tell 
you that if you do such-and-such you need to sand it all off and start
again?  Obviously, the pros have problems every now and then, too.
I don't think we have any 50 yr CA finish veterans yet. :tongue:

I'm not a know-it-all .. (just a windbag)   I'm wondering just like the rest
of you.


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## NewLondon88 (Oct 7, 2008)

woody350ep said:


> hmm, I wouldnt think being through to a previous coat would matter. It is all CA right?  And if it has been MM'd it all looks the same.  I am not having spotting issues anymore, it is a whole pen issue now



If it were polyurethane, you'd definitely have a problem if you broke through.
and it's all polyurethane, right? :tongue:

If it is MM'd, only the TOP COAT looks the same.. that was what made me
wonder if it was a sand through problem. If you had MM'd EACH COAT to
12,000 and then broken through, maybe you'd never see it.
(Because then your point would be exactly right .. it would be an identical
sanded, polished coat of CA)

 But if you break through to a coat that was never sanded, it wouldn't
 surprise me to see a difference in the surfaces. And if this newly exposed
surface only sees the 12000 MM pad, it wouldn't look like the rest of the
finish that got sanded up to 12000 .. otherwise, we'd all just START at
12000 and be done with it.

That was the point I was wondering about. I just got long winded in
getting there.. it could have nothing to do with the problem you're
experiencing.. but it is very similar to finishing problems in other areas.


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## Brandon25 (Oct 7, 2008)

NewLondon88 said:


> First, TSW  (thanks for the info, Alton!) is Trade Secret for Wood..
> supposed to be great stuff, only any time I go to buy it, nobody seems
> to have it in stock.
> 
> ...


Thanks NewLondon for the info. I guess I sorta thought CA acted as one thick coat like laquer, but it makes sense that it stays in layers I guess. 

Then I guess my next question would be, if you have to stay on one layer anyhow, why not just use one, single, layer and leave it at that? I mean, maybe we should just try a sealcoat of Mylands sanding sealer or something, then just hit it with one good solid CA pass and let it ride. What do you think? I'm not sure what you mean by "build." Depth? Actual _size_ enlargement? 

Woody, I hope this is still constructive, and not a tangent. Feel free to slap me if not.


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## NewLondon88 (Oct 7, 2008)

Brandon25 said:


> Thanks NewLondon for the info. I guess I sorta thought CA acted as one thick coat like laquer, but it makes sense that it stays in layers I guess.
> 
> Then I guess my next question would be, if you have to stay on one layer anyhow, why not just use one, single, layer and leave it at that? I mean, maybe we should just try a sealcoat of Mylands sanding sealer or something, then just hit it with one good solid CA pass and let it ride. What do you think? I'm not sure what you mean by "build." Depth? Actual _size_ enlargement?



Yes.. to both. you'll even notice some people taking this further .. by
 overturning and then using CA to build back up to the correct dimensions. 
They take micrometer measurements to match the wood to the parts.

The main reason for the thick application is that a thin coat of CA has no
stability. It is really _really_ thin. Successive coats add durability. otherwise
it would chip off or flake off.

Staying with one thick layer would make a lot of sense. If you can design
a formula that will go on thick, cure quickly without sagging and polish up
to a sheen like CA does, I guarantee you'll make millions.. :biggrin:

And once again .. I don't KNOW that any of this is a problem.
I'm wondering .. and speculating. Playing 'what-if'.


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## leehljp (Oct 8, 2008)

NewLondon88 said:


> The main reason for the thick application is that a thin coat of CA has no
> stability. It is really _really_ thin. Successive coats add durability. otherwise it would chip off or flake off.



Yes to durability but think of it as adding strength: Three thin coats on softer wood might stay intact but still allow dents more quickly. Thicker increases the depth and strength of the finish itself (and softer woods) - and to many people this visible thickness, when properly finished is very desirable. 

For me, I use medium CA and use a rubber glove to apply it while it is turning at slow speed. I add as much as will stay on without building up ridges. This might be the equivalent of 4 to 6 thin coats in one coat. But, without accelerator, it will take 2 to 5 minutes to cure in my experience. A couple of coats like this and it has a thick coating.


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## rherrell (Oct 8, 2008)

Hank, put some accelerator on a paper towel and wipe down the blank before every coat of CA. Then blow off the lint with compressed air. It cuts the cure time to about one minute with no side effects like you get from spraying it directly on the wet CA. It works for me:good:


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## leehljp (Oct 8, 2008)

rherrell said:


> Hank, put some accelerator on a paper towel and wipe down the blank before every coat of CA. Then blow off the lint with compressed air. It cuts the cure time to about one minute with no side effects like you get from spraying it directly on the wet CA. It works for me:good:



Rick,

I would love to but I can't find accelerator over here in anything larger than a small, very small spray can about 1/2 in diameter and 3 inches long and at a price of about $10.00.

Last time I was home for a few months, I had an 8 oz bottle put inside my pressure pot and it was shipped here by sea mail. I am VERY stingy with my accelerator. :wink: Only when I get into a tight spot do I use it. Rest of the time, I just use 'time'. :redface:

When I get back home for retirement, I am gonna buy some accelerator. I need to ask Manny if he can ship accelerator over here.


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## DurocShark (Oct 8, 2008)

The sand-through issue is why I use the Gel CA for finishing. After sanding through a few times and being frustrated.


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## woody350ep (Oct 8, 2008)

Don - how do you apply the Gel coat exactly?  I saw some of your work, but wondered about the app.  How many coats? How is your final sanding? Do you put it on thick? Etc....


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## DurocShark (Oct 8, 2008)

Spin at the slowest speed on my mini, around 500rpm.
Put the plastic parts baggie that comes with the kits over my finger.
Slide baggie back and forth over the wood while squirting the CA on.
I let it set for a "half a cig" (that's how I measure time too, though I quit smoking a few years ago) then apply another coat.
Let it set for another half a cig then spray accel on. 
Another half a cig then wet sand with 400 to level out any ridges.
Repeat. 

I guess I apply it pretty thick. I'm more interested in getting it even and a deep shine.


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