# Quality



## Smitty37 (Jun 16, 2012)

Today I saw a post that said ''to make a high quality pen you need a high quality kit"  

One of my pen peeves is: While I have no issue with that statement - I'd say the same thing myself - but, I would not mean the same thing the person making the statement meant.  

In the context of what he was illustrating he meant "high priced" and with his definition of "quality" he is right.  You won't make expensive pens from inexpensive kits. 

My definition of high quality is a high degree of conformance to specification regardless of price.  

Hence, under my definition a slimline can be excellent quality and an Emperor can be poor quality.  The slimline would still cost a lot less.


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## robersonjr (Jun 17, 2012)

Very true


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## jaeger (Jun 17, 2012)

This may be true but in all fairness, I'll bet I can sell 100+ slimlines to 1 Emperor and make much more gross profit and have a pen that they drool over and they will have a pen with  high quality components.


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## Smitty37 (Jun 17, 2012)

jaeger said:


> This may be true but in all fairness, I'll bet I can sell 100+ slimlines to 1 Emperor and make much more gross profit and have a pen that they drool over and they will have a pen with high quality components.


 I've read that a half-dozen times and I'm still not sure what you are saying....or how it relates to quality.


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## fitty (Jun 17, 2012)

jaeger said:
			
		

> This may be true but in all fairness, I'll bet I can sell 100+ slimlines to 1 Emperor and make much more gross profit and have a pen that they drool over and they will have a pen with  high quality components.



I would disagree with your statement. Are you accounting for the time it takes to make 100+ slimlines vs 1 Emperor? I would think the time would be comparable for making 1 of each.

Ultimately, it comes down to the value you place on the item your selling and finding a customer to agree. I'm sure $1000 slimline is possible, but a $1000 Emperor is more realistic.


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## carpblaster (Jun 17, 2012)

I agree any expensive pen will get more people looking,but some of us cant afford expensive ones, slimlines can be made to look good like smitty said,To me its what a customer wants or where your selling  them, no matter what it should always be done the best you can offer a customer, if i have a flaw in one i tell them or show them ,but mostly give away,I would like to see a 1000 dollar slimline and who bought it


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## NewLondon88 (Jun 17, 2012)

Wow.. I had to check the date on the post...


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## nativewooder (Jun 17, 2012)

I have seen some of the "stuff" that people sell over the internet and at certain shows, and I won't begrudge anyone either one of the dollars they get!:wink:  And granted you can sell 100 slimlines for every full-size high-end pen, but what is your market?  Do you even entertain the idea of selling high quality high end fountain or roller ball pens?!  In reality, I stay away from the high end because the economy in Florida has been destroyed  by politics for the near term.  But I tend to donate slimlines because of the ease of construction and the appreciation shown by those who get them.:biggrin:


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## Jim Burr (Jun 17, 2012)

Was just having a PM chat with another member about the same thing! Our skills matter too! I told him that I feel a little bad for my customers a year ago. My skills, technique, and education have increased dramatically...in no small part to you folks here! Instead of how many can I turn today...it's how good can I make this one look. I was using a Sierra type kit from an online vendor. I just had a 3rd one fall apart. Even though I use these for give aways...those generate a lot of sales! I tossed them and depend on a sole vendor for the "real deal" kits now. It sucks to put all that effort and heart into a pen to have it fall apart later.


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## terryf (Jun 17, 2012)

NewLondon88 said:


> Wow.. I had to check the date on the post...



A dead horse comes to mind!!


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## Smitty37 (Jun 17, 2012)

Jim Burr said:


> Was just having a PM chat with another member about the same thing! Our skills matter too! I told him that I feel a little bad for my customers a year ago. My skills, technique, and education have increased dramatically...in no small part to you folks here! Instead of how many can I turn today...it's how good can I make this one look. I was using a Sierra type kit from an online vendor. I just had a 3rd one fall apart. Even though I use these for give aways...those generate a lot of sales! I tossed them and depend on a sole vendor for the "real deal" kits now. It sucks to put all that effort and heart into a pen to have it fall apart later.


What do you mean when you say "fall apart"...if you mean the tip/nib section came unscrewed from the upper barrel - that is not an uncommon problem with that style and from several threads here discussing that problem no kit manufacturer seems to be immune to it happening to one of their kits occasionally.


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## Smitty37 (Jun 18, 2012)

terryf said:


> NewLondon88 said:
> 
> 
> > Wow.. I had to check the date on the post...
> ...


 Then don't read it.....


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## GaryMGg (Jun 18, 2012)

I too have seen this discussion here before.
With the continual gains in membership, I think it's a valid discussion which bears repeating.
I frequently see the same kits turned into pens by many different craftsman.
There is a difference in the quality of the pens produced using identical inputs.

A discussion of profit is not necessarily related to Smitty's Original Post.
The OP is a reference to meeting a specification.
I would add the spec must be appropriate. :wink:

My $.02 and nearly worth what you paid for it. :biggrin:


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## Smitty37 (Jun 18, 2012)

GaryMGg said:


> I too have seen this discussion here before.
> With the continual gains in membership, I think it's a valid discussion which bears repeating.
> I frequently see the same kits turned into pens by many different craftsman.
> There is a difference in the quality of the pens produced using identical inputs.
> ...


True - a perfect scredriver won't to the job of a pipe wrench....:tongue:


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## glycerine (Jun 18, 2012)

You can make a high quality pen with no kit at all!


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## Smitty37 (Jun 18, 2012)

glycerine said:


> You can make a high quality pen with no kit at all!


Of course you can and lots of people do.   That has nothing to do with the topic of this thread.


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## ghostrider (Jun 19, 2012)

Jim Burr said:


> Was just having a PM chat with another member about the same thing! Our skills matter too! I told him that I feel a little bad for my customers a year ago. My skills, technique, and education have increased dramatically...in no small part to you folks here! Instead of how many can I turn today...it's how good can I make this one look. I was using a Sierra type kit from an online vendor. I just had a 3rd one fall apart. Even though I use these for give aways...those generate a lot of sales! I tossed them and depend on a sole vendor for the "real deal" kits now. It sucks to put all that effort and heart into a pen to have it fall apart later.


I'm starting to get closer to that point. I have noticed some differences in the quality of component sets (however slight they may be), but really haven't been in this long enough to be able to rely on customer feedback for the quality of my pens (the first pens I sold were probably a little less than two years ago). 

Quality is important, however I've yet to buy a component set that cost over $30. Most of what I've been buying are less than $10. I was spending much less than that for a while, and have pretty much "stocked up" on the less costly kits however, I'm gradually starting to get away from that, and am looking more toward purchasing less quantity, and more quality per/amount spent. 

I'm still new to this, so that may even change eventually and I go back to the less expensive kits depending on my personal experience. As I'm not made of money, the cost of the kit has bearing on which kits I buy. Because of this, I'm really not able to give much more of an answer than that. 

I do have some observations. I initially gravitated toward the lower priced kits because of cost. However, there are other factors. THE example for me is Smitty's Elegant Le Roi's. AFAIK, there really isn't anything with the same features out there. The Areo is close, but it's smaller. Before he came out with those sets, I was wanting something in the single tube (Wall Street/Sierra/Diplomat/etc...) style that came with a flattened finial, and a finial twist operation.  So, I was grateful when he offered them. Still, if they had been $10 per set, I probably would not have been able to justify buying one, much less five+ at one time. 

What I want? "The best quality kits, for the price of the cheapest ones."
Barring that, I wish I could be more helpful.


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## ctubbs (Jun 19, 2012)

I have been working on a passell of slims this year and several last year for the troops.  My first slims were purchased from a catalog vendor to remain unnamed for now.  they worked mostly and I was proud of them.  Last year I received form two(2) vendors here many kits, all of much better quality than the ones from the first vendor.  Both the local vendors will know of whom I speak.  they both strongly support the program and offer quality products and service.  Alright, thanks to Smitty and Exotics.  This year I got behind in making my pens. they will not make the shipment date for this year, sorry about that to both the great guys that help out so much.

Back to the question at hand, there is a tremendous variation in the quality (standardization) of components found in supposedly the same kits and price is not always a perfect indicator.  Find a vendor or two or three you can depend upon to provide parts that can be depended on to remain within the specs you need for your standards.  I have found my selected few and will continue to support them with my few dollars.
Charles


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## glycerine (Jun 19, 2012)

Smitty37 said:


> glycerine said:
> 
> 
> > You can make a high quality pen with no kit at all!
> ...


 
Excuse me?  It has EVERYTHING to do with the topic of this thread.  The topic of the thread is "Quality" and more specifically the statement ''to make a high quality pen you need a high quality kit".  And I'll say it again, you don't need a kit at all to make a high quality pen.  Therefore that statement is false.  Therefore I have given my opinion on the TOPIC OF THIS THREAD.
Here's a suggestion, if you don't want a response, then don't make a post.


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## Smitty37 (Jun 19, 2012)

glycerine said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > glycerine said:
> ...


And here is my suggestion, don't be so presumptive as to tell the original poster what the topic of the thread is....the topic of this post is what constitutes "quality"....not what is needed or not needed to make a quality pen.


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## glycerine (Jun 19, 2012)

Smitty, stop being an @$$.  You know I'm right.


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## Smitty37 (Jun 19, 2012)

Try reading the initial post again - I don't think you read it the first time through.    

Today I saw a post that said ''to make a high quality pen you need a high quality kit" 

*One of my pen peeves is: While I have no issue with that statement - I'd say the same thing myself - but, I would not mean the same thing the person making the statement meant*. 

In the context of what he was illustrating he meant "high priced" and *with his definition of "quality" he is right*. You won't make expensive pens from inexpensive kits. 

*My definition of high quality is a high degree of conformance to specification regardless of price*. 

*Hence, under my definition a slimline can be excellent quality and an Emperor can be poor quality.* The slimline would still cost a lot less. 





glycerine said:


> Smitty, stop being an @$$. You know I'm right.


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## Andrew_K99 (Jun 19, 2012)

I have two rings, one is made of 22kt gold and 1ct. in diamonds and the other is made of 10kt gold and 1ct. in cubic zirconias.  Both are identical in fit and finish and as close in appearance as the materials allow.  Both meet the exact standards.

Based on what you claim, you think these are of the same quality.  My opinion is they are not, far, far from it in fact.

Also, for the record you've assumed incorrect, I did not say you need a high priced kit to make a high quality pen.  I said, and still believe, you need a high quality kit to make a high quality pen

AK


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## Smitty37 (Jun 19, 2012)

Andrew_K99 said:


> I have two rings, one is made of 22kt gold and 1ct. in diamonds and the other is made of 10kt gold and 1ct. in cubic zirconias. Both are identical in fit and finish and as close in appearance as the materials allow. Both meet the exact standards.
> 
> Based on what you claim, you think these are of the same quality. My opinion is they are not, far, far from it in fact.
> 
> ...


 Assuming they both conform to specification they are.  
 
The cost of the materials is not a factor in whether or not they are quality items.  Conformance to their specification is the determining factor.  If the diamond is specified to be pear cut and it is square cut it is out of spec and hence poor quality.  It could still be worth a great deal of money.
 
Thats what I said you said....and I said I had no issue with that.  But in the context in which you said it, it seemed to me that you were comparing a low priced kit to a high priced kit, so I took it to be related to price.  
 
Reading it again, I still take it that way, if you meant something other then that such as a high quality low priced kit then I misunderstood. 
 
But my point was that while we both might use the same statement about needing a high quality kit to make a high quality pen, as your first paragraph above makes clear, we wouldn't mean the same thing.


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## glycerine (Jun 19, 2012)

Smitty37 said:


> Try reading the initial post again - I don't think you read it the first time through.
> 
> Today I saw a post that said ''to make a high quality pen you need a high quality kit"
> 
> ...


 
Yes, I read the ENTIRE post, not just what you highlighted in red...


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## Displaced Canadian (Jun 19, 2012)

To answer the question can you make a high quality pen from a low quality kit I would say no because no matter what your definition of quality is it's the details that matter. I have a friend who is a pen snob, I handed him one of my pens a while ago he wrote with it and told me that it didn't write well and felt cheap. He also said I should look into getting better stuff to make them out of. Needless to say that bit of feedback has caused me to rethink how I make pens.
 Smitty, I gather that your definition of quality is what we called where I'm from "within spec." And what what we called quality you would call fine craftsmanship.


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## Displaced Canadian (Jun 19, 2012)

By the way, the pen snob and I are still friends. :biggrin:


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## carpblaster (Jun 19, 2012)

Smitty, I took one of your creckline,and i can make it anysize i need for my son and the navy clip,due to the clip being so small and has to have a screw in round top for his rank insignia, also took your euro designer and made 2 and love them, You always got my business if you carry it,no matter the price thanks for your help before
Rodney


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## LL Woodworks (Jun 19, 2012)

The quality of a "kit" regardless if it is a 24kt gold slimline or Rhodium plated Statesman may be a quality product (as defined by Smitty) while it is in the bag, but that quality can be lost in turning and assembly process (fit & finish).  Also, as per Smitty's definition of quality, do you consider a 24kt gold slimline - or any 24kt gold kit -  a "quality" product when the finish wears off a year or so after being sold?  It met the specs when manufactured... does that make it a quality product???


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## leehljp (Jun 19, 2012)

I have noticed that "quality" takes on different meanings for different people. In my small hometown, the old money folks and blue bloods can spot fake and cheap plating no mater how precise it is. Cheap thin plating that is real is still called "fake" plating to these folks. It doesn't matter how well the fit and finish of a pen is, some people can spot plating and quality of plating by color and know where to look for the stamp that reveals its quality. 

My highschool physics/chemistry professor, in his '80s (and one who has some MIT connections) can spot the differences and has a book on all the tiny stamps that reveal the manufacture of origin and plating methods. If a pen, piece of jewelry or item does not have these stamps, then they can be properly presumed to be "not of quality". 

I took one of my pens in to him about 4 years ago and he really liked it, then said, "Hank, you won't sell many of these to the old folks here because there is not enough real gold on it. They will spot the thin plating and no matter how great of an artist you are with the pen, your artistry is greater than the quality of the components" - in reference to the gold/silver quantity, not the mfg quality and specs.

I grew up where people talked about real silver dining wear vs plated silver. In this area, the quality is in the precious metal content. Sure you "can" have poor quality construction, but when something has real gold/silver quantity content, the price is going to be such that the maker will "usually" have high quality construction and artistic standards to match!

For this very reason, I am progressing towards kitless and looking at good quality/quantity plated silver fittings. I am not quite ready for this as I am still getting my shop in order but this is the direction that I want to go. (Good quality platings don't rub off even under moderately heavy wear!)


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## Smitty37 (Jun 19, 2012)

LL Woodworks said:


> The quality of a "kit" regardless if it is a 24kt gold slimline or Rhodium plated Statesman may be a quality product (as defined by Smitty) while it is in the bag, but that quality can be lost in turning and assembly process (fit & finish).
> 
> Also, as per Smitty's definition of quality, do you consider a 24kt gold slimline - or any 24kt gold kit - a "quality" product when the finish wears off a year or so after being sold? It met the specs when manufactured... does that make it a quality product???


If a wear factor is specified - which it can be (PSI guarantees some of their 24Kt gold kits for life), then premature wear would disqualify the kit as conforming to spec. 
 
Not really - keep in mind that once you turn and finish you have a different product that has its own specification (implied or written),


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## Smitty37 (Jun 19, 2012)

Andrew_K99 said:


> I have two rings, one is made of 22kt gold and 1ct. in diamonds and the other is made of 10kt gold and 1ct. in cubic zirconias. Both are identical in fit and finish and as close in appearance as the materials allow. Both meet the exact standards.
> 
> Based on what you claim, you think these are of the same quality. My opinion is they are not, far, far from it in fact.
> 
> ...


Based on what I claim I think that both can be in full conformance with their specifications and that in the case you describe means both would be of excellent quality.

Now is an excellent quality diamond ring the same as an excellent quality Zerconia?  Obviously not, but that does not mean that both can not be of excellent quality.

You're saying (I think) that because a diamond is a better (more expensive) stone that the diamond ring is better quality.  Not so - even if the diamond ring is badly made with obvious flaws it will still be more expensive but it won't be better quality.


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## Smitty37 (Jun 19, 2012)

glycerine said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > Try reading the initial post again - I don't think you read it the first time through.
> ...


 And I *wrote* the entire post. The first sentence is simply stating why I was posting, it is obviously not the topic of the post.


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## Smitty37 (Jun 19, 2012)

Displaced Canadian said:


> To answer the question can you make a high quality pen from a low quality kit I would say no because no matter what your definition of quality is it's the details that matter. I have a friend who is a pen snob, I handed him one of my pens a while ago he wrote with it and told me that it didn't write well and felt cheap. He also said I should look into getting better stuff to make them out of. Needless to say that bit of feedback has caused me to rethink how I make pens.
> Smitty, I gather that your definition of quality is what we called where I'm from "within spec." And what what we called quality you would call fine craftsmanship.[/quote] My definition of quality would cover both....fine craftsmanship can still not meet spec.
> 
> As an example lets say you specify a pen, the materials etc. and also say it may not exceed 7/16th inch in diameter.  You receive an very well made pen, excellent blank, great fit and an out of this world finish but it is 1/2 inch in diameter.  It does not conform to spec and therefore is not acceptable quality.  It can still be a great pen.


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## bitshird (Jun 19, 2012)

If this were simply a discussion of Quality, (not necessarily about pens) It would be a very quick and easily answered question, Quality and Specifications are in no way connected. I can make 2 parts out of  Stainless Steel, Both may look the same work the same and be in spec. suppose the parts had a +/- .005 tolerance on two parts that work in conjunction.
 Longevity /quality of the piece is dependent how many hundreds of thousands of times another part also having the same machining tolerances will slide back and forth before wearing out. I make one the first part has the slot -.002 deep and the slide part is -.001, the width of the slot on the body is .+.0025 and the slide part is +.002, part 2 is all right at .+004 straight across the body and -.004 both dimensions on the slide, Both parts are well within tolerances which mean the are as specified by the persons paying for the job.
One set will outlast the other many many more times, That is the one I would call Quality.
In way too many years as a machinist, I've worked in the QC lab a couple of years. and there have been contracts where EACH and EVERY part had to be fully inspected, after we got them back from X-ray there were hole locations, gasket and O ring surfaces, thickness every possible dimension that were checked with a Coordinate Measuring Machine, But the old Brown & Sharpe I last worked on wasn't that precise it could only handle up to 5 decimal places. But did have full computer interface. Besides the gantry floating on columns supported by air it had a Ruby sensing tip that was impervious to wear. But there is no way this post can be considered any thing other than one more waste of bandwidth much like the last three pages of typographical sparing between Jerry and Smitty. 
If I need a Gold toned Pen, I try and buy Gold TI  at least then I know the Plating won't wear off before the first refill runs out!!!! 
Quality is a thing that can best be determined by time, but of course as Einstein postulated; Time is not a lineal thing, there is no past there actually is no present, for when you consider it, it has already become a thing of the past which the universe all ready has disposed in quantum theory of course; the only thing we can look forward to is a future.
 So will the damn pen still look good in the future!!! If so, then it was a Quality product when constructed.
And that alone should put an end to this silly squabble over semantics!!!!


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## Smitty37 (Jun 19, 2012)

bitshird said:


> If this were simply a discussion of Quality, (not necessarily about pens) It would be a very quick and easily answered question, *Quality and Specifications are in no way connected.* I can make 2 parts out of Stainless Steel, Both may look the same work the same and be in spec. suppose the parts had a +/- .005 tolerance on two parts that work in conjunction.
> Longevity /quality of the piece is dependent how many hundreds of thousands of times another part also having the same machining tolerances will slide back and forth before wearing out. I make one the first part has the slot -.002 deep and the slide part is -.001, the width of the slot on the body is .+.0025 and the slide part is +.002, part 2 is all right at .+004 straight across the body and -.004 both dimensions on the slide, Both parts are well within tolerances which mean the are as specified by the persons paying for the job.
> One set will outlast the other many many more times, That is the one I would call Quality.
> In way too many years as a machinist, I've worked in the QC lab a couple of years. and there have been contracts where EACH and EVERY part had to be fully inspected, after we got them back from X-ray there were hole locations, gasket and O ring surfaces, thickness every possible dimension that were checked with a Coordinate Measuring Machine, But the old Brown & Sharpe I last worked on wasn't that precise it could only handle up to 5 decimal places. But did have full computer interface. Besides the gantry floating on columns supported by air it had a Ruby sensing tip that was impervious to wear. But there is no way this post can be considered any thing other than one more waste of bandwidth much like the last three pages of typographical sparing between Jerry and Smitty.
> ...


Ken, as a guy who spent most of my 32 years with IBM working in the quality control arena.....I will assure you that Quality and Specifications are connected.  Quality is conformance to specification.  

If you want to make a pen with a long lasting plating you spec the plating to be applied to the kit parts and find a way to test that it meets spec.  The test might be destructive in which case you will not test every part but you will sample test and use statistical methods to acertain whether or not the items meet spec.  It works, and it is the reason the Japanese were kicking our butts in quality for so long - we invented but they perfected it and used it well.


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## glycerine (Jun 19, 2012)

Smitty37 said:
			
		

> And I wrote the entire post. The first sentence is simply stating why I was posting, it is obviously not the topic of the post.




Stop arguing long enough to THINK about what I posted...  I was actually agreeing with you.  You and others are going on and on about the quality of a pen and the quality of pen kits.  My point is, forget the "kit".  As I said, a quality pen can be made without a kit, meaning that the quality of a pen doesn't necessarily lie in the components that are used.  Now get on with your life...


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## Smitty37 (Jun 19, 2012)

glycerine said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
As I said, the focus of the discussion is "What IS (or should be) the meaning of Quality" not what is needed to make a quality pen.  

Hence, you were not agreeing with me because I wasn't not talking about making a 'quality' pen. 

*The personal comments are not necessary.*


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## greenmtnguy (Jun 19, 2012)

Quality should mean conformity to high standards.  Meeting a low standard is producing low quality. Somehow it seems so simple to me.


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## glycerine (Jun 19, 2012)

Smitty37 said:


> glycerine said:
> 
> 
> > Smitty37 said:
> ...


 
Seriously?  Pens is an EXAMPLE.  The same example YOU used:
"Hence, under my definition a slimline can be excellent quality and an Emperor can be poor quality."  So, yes, you were talking about making a quality pen and this is where we agree, quality has nothing to do with the kit.  
And honestly, I'd say there is no focus to this discussion.  I'm quite tired of you arguing with my every word, so I'll make this my last response.


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## Smitty37 (Jun 20, 2012)

glycerine said:


> Smitty37 said:
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> 
> > glycerine said:
> ...


 I was not arguing with your every word....just the ones where you were and still are wrong.  I certainly hope that is your last response.


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## Andrew_K99 (Jun 20, 2012)

Smitty37 said:


> ...As I said, the focus of the discussion is "What IS (or should be) the meaning of Quality" not what is needed to make a quality pen...


Smitty, you have stated that quality IS conformance to specifications.  You haven't started a discussion, your defending your opinion.

We are going in circles as we don't agree what the definition of quality is.  You believe it is measurable (as in quality assurance in a manufacturing process) and others believe it is quite subjective (as in my ring example).  If you can't accept that our definition is valid then there is no discussion to be had and this will continue to go in circles.

AK


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## Smitty37 (Jun 20, 2012)

Andrew_K99 said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > ...As I said, the focus of the discussion is "What IS (or should be) the meaning of Quality" not what is needed to make a quality pen...
> ...


That is exactly my point - we don't agree on what quality is: therefore if you say you want a quality product there is no way for me to know what you mean.

btw nearly all manufacturers agree with my definition - and you and I are fortunate that they do.


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## azamiryou (Jun 20, 2012)

It's not so unusual that a word is a "term of art" with a specific meaning in one industry, and also a much looser meaning in lay language. And possibly also conflicting specific meanings in other industries.

To the typical pen buyer, I'm sure that "high quality" means it looks good, works well, and doesn't fall apart. This has nothing to do with whether the pen component manufacturing was on-spec; it has everything to do with whether the pen looks good, works well, and doesn't fall apart.


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## leehljp (Jun 20, 2012)

Smitty37 said:


> That is exactly my point - we don't agree on what quality is: therefore if you say you want a quality product there is no way for me to know what you mean.
> 
> btw nearly all manufacturers agree with my definition - and you and I are fortunate that they do.



quality |ˈkwälətē|
noun ( pl. qualities )
1 the standard of something as measured against other things of a similar kind; the degree of excellence of something: an improvement in product quality | people today enjoy a better quality of life.
• general excellence of standard or level: a masterpiece for connoisseurs of quality | [ as modifier ] : a wide choice of quality beers.
• archaic high social standing: commanding the admiration of people of quality.
• [ treated as pl. ] archaic people of high social standing: he's dazed at being called on to speak before quality.
2 a distinctive attribute or characteristic possessed by someone or something: he shows strong leadership qualities . . . 

IF you will notice, ALL of those give credence to a relative position. There is no "absolute" in this sense, but it seems like that (an absolute) is what is being requested in the OP. Somethings are absolute and some are not. A relative quality word like "quality" can not be turned into an absolute without distorting the meaning of the word itself. And it is the nature of language is to change word meanings over decades or centuries.


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## Smitty37 (Jun 20, 2012)

azamiryou said:


> It's not so unusual that a word is a "term of art" with a specific meaning in one industry, and also a much looser meaning in lay language. And possibly also conflicting specific meanings in other industries.
> 
> To the typical pen buyer, I'm sure that "high quality" means it looks good, works well, and doesn't fall apart. This has nothing to do with whether the pen component manufacturing was on-spec; it has everything to do with whether the pen looks good, works well, and doesn't fall apart.


How about the typical pen component set buyer?  I sell component sets to typical turners as do most of my competitors - the turners might or might not sell completed pens to typical pen buyers.  Wouldn't they like to know what I and my competitors mean when we say "This is the best quality component I sell." ?


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## Andrew_K99 (Jun 20, 2012)

You're fixed on a manufacturing definition because of your background in QA/QC.

The definition of quality is "The standard of something as measured against other things of a similar kind" [reference]

By definition you can compare kit A and kit B and one can be considered better quality even if the both meet specification.

As Einstein said the definition of insanity is doing the same thing twice expecting different results, with that I will no longer take part in this discussion.

AK


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## GaryMGg (Jun 20, 2012)

I see a quality failure within. Too many typos and misspellings in these posts. :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:
:wink:


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## Smitty37 (Jun 20, 2012)

leehljp said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > That is exactly my point - we don't agree on what quality is: therefore if you say you want a quality product there is no way for me to know what you mean.
> ...


 The first definition is pretty close to what I'm saying.  If you as a buyer want to buy high quality components, seller's ought to know what you mean by high quality.  If I tell you that "xyz pen kit is of excellent quality" you should know what I mean.  Here we are not talking in general terms most of the time.  We are talking about pretty specific products mostly pens or pen components so when we say "quality" we should all try to be on the same page.


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## Timebandit (Jun 20, 2012)

Smitty37 said:


> azamiryou said:
> 
> 
> > It's not so unusual that a word is a "term of art" with a specific meaning in one industry, and also a much looser meaning in lay language. And possibly also conflicting specific meanings in other industries.
> ...



WE already know what you and your competitors mean by it Smitty.....this is where you are beating a dead horse. Everyone knows that you sell Quality kits by YOUR standard and no one is arguing that. You trying to make people understand your point of view, and they already do. The problem is that you dont want to except there point of view. Everyones point of view is right. There are many different definitions of the word. Your trying to be the absolute winner by being right. You are...Your a winner. You sell quality components. What are you trying to make people realize? Whats left to talk about? Let it go.....................................................


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## Smitty37 (Jun 20, 2012)

Andrew_K99 said:


> You're fixed on a manufacturing definition because of your background in QA/QC.
> 
> The definition of quality is "The *standard* of something *as measured* against other things of a similar kind" [reference]
> 
> ...


 I am fixed on a manufacturing definition because my customers are buying a manufactured product and if I say it is of good quality they should know what I mean.  If, as quite a few do, they ask me about the quality of various kits, I should know what they are asking so I can give them an honest answer.

Then you don't get the last word --- even though as usual you tried:biggrin:


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## Timebandit (Jun 20, 2012)

Smitty37 said:


> leehljp said:
> 
> 
> > Smitty37 said:
> ...



The problem is that you want everyone to be on your page, and if they arent they are wrong. Your definition is the only right one. Why cant there be something other than your definition of it? Which there is as shown in the posts above. Yours isnt the absolute right one that all penturners should be describing. You dont even sell pens, so let it go with what the people buying pens are hearing is quality from the person they buy from, they say what they want. Quite trying to be God!


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## Timebandit (Jun 20, 2012)

Smitty37 said:


> Andrew_K99 said:
> 
> 
> > You're fixed on a manufacturing definition because of your background in QA/QC.
> ...



And your customers Know what you mean.......so what are you saying? you act like people here dont know what you mean or that you sell quality products.............


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## Smitty37 (Jun 20, 2012)

Timebandit said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > azamiryou said:
> ...


 Granting that you are right Justin.....Do I know what you mean by it?  No I don't.


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## Timebandit (Jun 20, 2012)

Smitty37 said:


> Timebandit said:
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> 
> > Smitty37 said:
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Really?????????? You have already beat it into our heads many times over with many different threads. How could WE NOT know what YOU mean by it? Its quite obvious. No need to explain it again. I know your definition and that you sell Quality kits. So you should know what i mean by it. If not, i have no clue how to make you understand.

Let me ask you a question, and i want a one word answer....No More....This is a Yes or No question. Do you think that anyone who has a different definition of Quality on this matter is wrong if there definition isnt the exact same as yours? Again save your long winded explanation, just YES or NO.


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## Smitty37 (Jun 20, 2012)

Timebandit said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > Timebandit said:
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NO.
 
How it the world can you say that unless your definition is the same as mine? 
Quality:  I know you think you heard what I said but I'm not sure you know that what you heard is not what I meant.:biggrin:


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## Timebandit (Jun 20, 2012)

Smitty37 said:


> Timebandit said:
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Who said it wasnt??????  So i have to have your same definition to know your definition???????????????? Absurd!!!! Your definition is clear, do i need to copy/paste it??? Im not going to give my definition.....why...its not whats important. Whats important, is to not try to make everyone think the same thing as you. Just because someone deosnt, doesnt mean that there definition is wrong. Yours is right to YOU because you spent most of your life conforming to this one definition of the word Quality, when in REALITY, there are many different definitions of the word, and they are all right, not just yours.


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## jasontg99 (Jun 20, 2012)

DEAD HORSE.


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## pianomanpj (Jun 20, 2012)

Displaced Canadian said:


> By the way, the pen snob and I are still friends. :biggrin:



Yeah, but does he now have a "cheap-feeling" pen sticking out of his temple? :biggrin:


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## Smitty37 (Jun 20, 2012)

Timebandit said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > Timebandit said:
> ...


 
You spell the highlighted word wrong almost every time you use it, as you did above...correct spelling is "their"...but have I ever suggested that I don't know what you mean?  No because I do know what you mean.  Have I ever suggested you change your spelling?  No. 

Unlike that example though.  I do not know what you mean if use the word "quality"....now you say you do know what I mean when I use it, but you also say it might not mean that when you use it.  If it means something else when you use how am I to know what you mean?  I am not a mind reader.


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## Smitty37 (Jun 20, 2012)

Just so you understand - I do know there are many ways to use the word "quality" and I do use most of them myself.  I talk about spending "quality" time with my grand kids.  I talk about the "quality" of life and  the "quality" of my TV picture, just like almost everyone else does.  The word used like that is very subjective and we all know that.

If you say you had some quality time with your kids or grand kids, I can only generally assume that you probably enjoyed it, nothing else - but that's all I need to know in that instance. 

On the other hand if you say "XYZ is a quality pen kit." it ought to mean something more than that you like the kit.  So I think the meaning (in the context that the word is usually used here) should be a bit more precise than in the first example.  

Member's here make a lot of inquiries regarding quality of components and if we are not using a fairly precise definition they get a lot of meaningless answers.  I personally get asked about quality lots of times and I do like to be able to give honest answers.  

Someone suggested that because I don't sell pens (I do, just not very many) I let people define quality for their pens in their own way because they are selling them.  I do - I have never suggested to anyone how to describe their pens or taken issue with anyone's description. 

To those who say this is beating a dead horse, I would say we get probably a few hundred new members a month here, so the fact that many members have seen something before doesn't mean everyone has.  

We don't throw out the arithmetic course because last years class has already taken it....we do get asked the same questions repeatedly and always will so long as we accept new members.


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## leehljp (Jun 20, 2012)

Smitty37 said:


> On the other hand if you say "XYZ is a quality pen kit." it ought to mean something more than that you like the kit.  So I think the meaning (in the context that the word is usually used here) should be a bit more precise than in the first example.
> 
> Member's here make a lot of inquiries regarding quality of components and if we are not using a fairly precise definition they get a lot of meaningless answers.  I personally get asked about quality lots of times and I do like to be able to give honest answers.
> 
> Someone suggested that because I don't sell pens (I do, just not very many) I let people define quality for their pens in their own way because they are selling them.  I do - I have never suggested to anyone how to describe their pens or taken issue with anyone's description.



While I don't think you are necessarily beating a dead horse, you ARE flirting with an exercise in futility! :wink: 

I learned a long time ago that the same word(s) mean different things to different people and I "ain't gonna change them" with my meaning.  "Use a light touch" is one such phrase. To a 100LB person they never will get something turned using their concept of "light touch". Conversely, to a 250lb person, they will drive a scraper all the way through soft wood using a "light touch". To a small person, moderate pressure is lighter than light pressure to a large person.

Time is another. It only takes a few seconds for CA to dry/cure. To some, if it is more than 3 seconds that is too long. To others, 30 seconds is about right. Lightly coating with CA is another. To some this is a few swipes of CA with Paper Towel, to others, it means uniform, consistent and total but minimal thickness as measured by calipers. 

With as many members as we have here and with the varied personnel and interests, you will never get everyone on the same page. I just posted a comment on another thread and mentioned "TBC". One fellow who is active and been on this daily forum for 3 years asked "What is TBC?" Can't tell you how many threads that that in it, and articles in the library mention it including some dedicated to that subject only. 

My definition of Quality is the amount of gold or silver in it and that the degree of fit and finish of the blank and components match - as the content (gold/silver quantity) goes up. $500 to $1000 artistic aesthetics on a $50 - $100 component pen just don't sit right to me. It is kinda like putting a finely made soft pine frame around a Rembrandt.


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## Smitty37 (Jun 20, 2012)

leehljp said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > On the other hand if you say "XYZ is a quality pen kit." it ought to mean something more than that you like the kit. So I think the meaning (in the context that the word is usually used here) should be a bit more precise than in the first example.
> ...


I agree with that.  But, people are now aware that the issue exists.  
 
What bothers me more than people disagreeing with me is that so many take it personal and don't seem to recognize that they are as adamant and arbitrary in their opinion as I am in mine.  Someone makes a bunch of posts disagreeing with me and not changing their opinion one iota than tells me that I'm being unreasonable because I didn't change mine to agree with them.


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## Timebandit (Jun 20, 2012)

Smitty37 said:


> What bothers me more than people disagreeing with me



Here lies the problem................


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## Smitty37 (Jun 20, 2012)

Timebandit said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > What bothers me more than people disagreeing with me
> ...


  Explain?


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## Timebandit (Jun 20, 2012)

Smitty37 said:


> Timebandit said:
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Your bothered that people disagree with you..........need a picture


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## Smitty37 (Jun 20, 2012)

Timebandit said:


> Smitty37 said:
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> > Timebandit said:
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 :biggrin:And you of course are not bothered by people who disagree with you???????:biggrin:


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## Timebandit (Jun 20, 2012)

Smitty37 said:


> Timebandit said:
> 
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> > Smitty37 said:
> ...



Nope, we all are our own people and have opinions. Im not botered because we disagree. We actually have the same opinion, in regards to Quality Control, thats two words not one. On the matter of Quality, we disagree, as you see them as the same and i (and many others)see them as different. Your opinion, or disagreeing with me bothers me not one bit. It is your trying to make everyone else say the exact thing as you and if they disagree with you, you get bothered, that bothers me. Thats not your opinion that im bothered by, that is your personality.

Il let you have the last word on this one......................


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## Smitty37 (Jun 20, 2012)

Timebandit said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > Timebandit said:
> ...


 Yes, I am trying to get everyone to agree on a common definition of quality as it applies to pen kits.  So that when we talk about quality among different kits and manufacturers we are on the same page....I don't think that is at all unreasonable. 

It does not bother me that people disagree with me - I've been married for 50 years and have 4 feminist daughters - I'm used to being disagreed with and being outnumbered.:biggrin:


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## azamiryou (Jun 20, 2012)

Smitty37 said:


> azamiryou said:
> 
> 
> > It's not so unusual that a word is a "term of art" with a specific meaning in one industry, and also a much looser meaning in lay language. And possibly also conflicting specific meanings in other industries.
> ...



Of course they'd like to know, but what's interesting is that _they think they do know._ They have their own opinion of what the word means, and the base assumption is that you're talking about the same thing.

For me, a high-quality pen kit is one that (if assembled properly) looks good, works well, and doesn't fall apart. Your "highest quality" kit is the one that in your judgement has the best combination of good looks, functionality, and durability. I also accept implicitly that this is a matter of opinion, experience, and quite likely marketing goals - and not based on objective measurements.

If this is not what you mean, then I will be mislead by your statement. In which case, you can:


Try to educate your buyers as to what _you_ mean by "quality". To which I say, good luck with that.
Change your wording so that you aren't using words in ways that the general public does not. Instead, use "plain English" to say what you mean.
You are not alone in this battle - it's a notorious problem for scientists, who use many words with very specific meanings that are quite different from how the public at large uses them - "theory", "bias", "error".


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## GaryMGg (Jun 20, 2012)

leehljp said:


> I learned a long time ago that the same word(s) mean different things to different people and I "ain't gonna change them" with my meaning.


 
Ahem. I beg to differ :biggrin:

I was taught that when meaning matters, it is necessary to "Operationally define" the terms being used for the foundation of the discussion.
Thus, one might define a specific color using the Pantone Matching System (PMS) and everyone would know what shade of green Pantone 7725 U is.

Meanings do change and that's why, I believe, the terms must be defined so we can agree what they mean in the context of the user(s) on this forum.
So, when someone starts a thread about a term like "Quality" and they also define the term, in that specific thread, that's the meaning which should be discussed unless they're asking for a debate about their definition.
But, if they want to define the term for all threads on the IAP, they're going to have a lot of discussion, disagreement, and they'll likely have to sell a lot of Girl Scout Cookies to make it stick. :biggrin::biggrin:


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## leehljp (Jun 20, 2012)

Smitty37 said:


> I agree with that.  But, people are now aware that the issue exists.



Contrary to what you "think":
1. even those that started reading this thread in the beginning have given up on this thread,
2. The majority are nowhere near the theme you want, which is "awareness of the issue". 

3. Awareness of ANY issue is only relevant to any one person at the very time the issue happens. And no matter if the issue has been discussed 1000 literal times on this forum, an average person in 7 years of regular checking in - will NOT have read the previous 1000 posts (of that issue, in this case "quality") because it did not concern them previously.

Again - making "all" regulars (people) aware is an exercise in futility. IF you want to be successful at all in this matter - Think of it as if you are a school teacher and each year, you have to teach the same thing over and over again. And Good Teachers know this and accept this as who they are and what they do. 

One time posting on what quality "should be" - for awareness sake - is lost deep in past posts come next week. That is life.


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## Smitty37 (Jun 20, 2012)

azamiryou said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > azamiryou said:
> ...


Sure they do...but why should they have to be "surprised" to find out they don't.


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## Timebandit (Jun 20, 2012)

leehljp said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > I agree with that.  But, people are now aware that the issue exists.
> ...



http://www.penturners.org/forum/f18/quality-98458/

http://www.penturners.org/forum/f18/quality-92955/

http://www.penturners.org/forum/f14/quality-vs-luxury-65400/

Second class this year


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## Smitty37 (Jun 20, 2012)

leehljp said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > I agree with that. But, people are now aware that the issue exists.
> ...


 You'd be surprised at how many people here can call up a thread from an earlier time. At least I am.


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## NewLondon88 (Jun 20, 2012)

I hate to do this


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## Timebandit (Jun 20, 2012)

NewLondon88 said:


> I hate to do this



LOL!!!!! I laughed loud on that one!!!


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## leehljp (Jun 20, 2012)

GaryMGg said:


> leehljp said:
> 
> 
> > I learned a long time ago that the same word(s) mean different things to different people and I "ain't gonna change them" with my meaning.
> ...



I agree with you that it would be great, its just that the masses will not read or adopt the defined. You mentioned Pantone, and that is a great standard for defining, however in the case here we are not under any authority that makes people conform to a norm, and besides that gray here is not gray somewhere else. They use "grey" and they are right.

There is a HUGE difference when you work for a company or organization that can fire you (clients drop out) if you don't conform to standards versus being in a community that features the differences and individuality. When people don't have to change wording they won't.

Colonel is pronounced kur - nal. Why? because the educated and organized of England chose to name the leader of a column "colonel" and on documents over the years wrote it as "colonel". However, the masses of the people kept using the spoken word that was previously used which was "kurnel". Over the course of a century, Colonel was spoken phonetically as kurnel.

You can't change some events with "orders" or "awareness" only. That can only be accomplished through their "values" system.

In your "beg to differ" you added a value that will cause change, and that value is - that they can get fired or client will quit if a standard is not conformed to. (Sorry for ending with a preposition.) People will value their jobs, so they will conform most of the time or quit or get fired.

On this forum there is no incentive values to change what people have been holding onto for most of their life. I will not change mine, as I value precious metal content in the basis for determining what quality is. And this is not a company that will fire me so, no that won't work for me, nor will it (IMHO) change others. 

IF people want to find a standard to conform to voluntarily, there needs to be a common value presented for them to want to do it.

One other thing I learned a long time ago: In voluntary situations - You can't change most people's lives by arguing truths and standards, - you only push most people away doing that. You have a MUCH better chance at changing them through their value system - i.e. what they value. 

When you work in an "industry" and are under authority, that is a different story!


NOW, If Smitty were to propose a kind of standard so that we could all be on the same page, - that is a value to come together. To throw it out for discussion and opinion, that is an argument, which is usually divisive, as if we didn't already know.


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## Smitty37 (Jun 20, 2012)

Nah! you love it.:biggrin:





NewLondon88 said:


> I hate to do this


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## NewLondon88 (Jun 20, 2012)

leehljp said:


> In your "beg to differ" you add a value in that will cause change, and that value is that they can get fired or client will quit if a standard is not conformed to. (Sorry for ending with a preposition.)



Hank.. whenever I run into a situation where I'm about to end
a sentence with a preposition, I just add the word 'Poopoohead' at the
end. Even if it isn't correct, it stops people from noticing my foe par :tongue:


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## NewLondon88 (Jun 20, 2012)

Smitty37 said:


> Nah! you love it.:biggrin:



I admit it.


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## Smitty37 (Jun 20, 2012)

NewLondon88 said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > Nah! you love it.:biggrin:
> ...


If I had that picture available I think I would too.


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## leehljp (Jun 20, 2012)

Obsessive-compulsive: 
• Those who won't quit posting to this thread,
and
• Those who won't quit reading it even if they don't like it! 

:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

Hey, we could be the subject of a college student's psychology study!  :biggrin:


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## dbledsoe (Jun 20, 2012)

NewLondon88 said:


> leehljp said:
> 
> 
> > In your "beg to differ" you add a value in that will cause change, and that value is that they can get fired or client will quit if a standard is not conformed to. (Sorry for ending with a preposition.)
> ...




Now that's funny, I don't care who you are - and bless the pygmies in New Guinea...........................


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## jasontg99 (Jun 20, 2012)

leehljp said:


> Hey, we could be the subject of a college student's psychology study!  :biggrin:



    It has been done before.  Something about women feeling intimidated on IAP if I remember correctly.


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## jasontg99 (Jun 20, 2012)

NewLondon88 said:


> I hate to do this



Charlie is back!


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## pianomanpj (Jun 20, 2012)

Listen, now... I love you guys... but this thread is getting nuttier than a port-a-potty at a peanut festival! :tongue:


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## terryf (Jun 21, 2012)

Leroy,

If it really is awareness you're after and to inform all the newbies of the potential pitfalls in this great hobby of ours - instead of starting a new thread each week (which is mostly full of pictures of dead horses :biggrin and causing people to start other threads about your thread ultimately creating more tension than can be held in a 1 farad capacitor.....








....why not write an article for the library on quality vs quality control?

 :bananen_smilies035: :bananen_smilies035: :bananen_smilies035: :bananen_smilies035: :bananen_smilies035: :bananen_smilies035: :bananen_smilies035: :bananen_smilies035: :bananen_smilies035: :bananen_smilies035: :bananen_smilies035: :bananen_smilies035:


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## TellicoTurning (Jun 21, 2012)

I've read through about 90% of this thread... until I got tired of all the nitpicking... in the end I as the buyer will decide whether the kit I buy is of "quality" to me, without regard to the price of the kit... I've bought kits that were quite expensive, put them on a very nice high quality blank (in my opinion) and had good craftsmanship on the pen and in the end felt the pen was either gaudy and overly ornate and not necessarily a "quality" pen.


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