# Is CA REALLY that good?



## Texatdurango (Jul 9, 2007)

Been travelling around the past few weeks and have been carrying around a closed end pen I made a few months back and finished in CA.

Usually I keep a pen in my shirt pocket but seldom wear pocketed shirts while RV'ing so keep the pen in my pants pocket and have noticed that it has suffered several tiny indentions, knicks, marks, or whatever you want to call them.

I asked my wife to see the pen she carries in her purse and is looks about the same, which brings me to my question....

These CA finishes may look spectacular when new BUT does anyone ever check to see how they "weather" when in real world use?

I'm beginning to think that the CA is not the great finish it's been made out to be afterall.

Just an observation, any thoughts?


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## ed4copies (Jul 9, 2007)

George,

If you put a pen in your pocket and it hits your keys repeatedly, I don't think ANY finish will do well.

I make my key chains out of diamondwood and faux marble, just for this reason. 

FWIW!!


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## Czarcastic (Jul 9, 2007)

I've never liked CA as a finish. 

Although the GLOSS you can get is superb, it is highly over-rated in my opinion.
CA can be very brittle - and when it chips or breaks it is not repairable.
It can also cloud, and can be a demon to clean off your pen-making components... and your lathe.
There are numerous other finishes that can provide a beautiful finish, and I have always prefered them.

Then again, I'm not a huge fan of the "looks like its covered in plastic" finish that I see on most of the pens here, anyway, and that - happily - puts me in the minority.


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## Jerryconn (Jul 9, 2007)

I carry my pens in my pants pocket as well and I like the CA finish very much. It will get dings and dents if you carry pen like in your pants pocket.  The CA finish is repairable/replaceable (at least on a pen that can be taken apart) you just have to take it back down to the wood and start over.  Perhaps Russ Fairfield will comment but I think that CA is one of the hardest finishes you can use, but I don't any finish is bullet proof.   Just my $.02 worth


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## wdcav1952 (Jul 9, 2007)

George,

Put it this way:  If you sold someone a beautiful amboyna burl pen would you want them to treat it like you are treating your pen?  No finish will stand up to being abused as you describe.  It is also good to let your CA finish harden for a day prior to assembling the pen to avoid early damage. 

FWIW,


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## Dario (Jul 9, 2007)

I've had a few CA finished pens abused the way you described and still looking good.  I believe not all CA finish are made equal  []

My carry pen is a "reject" figured cherry chrome baron using an experiment treated blank then Tung oil.  It is in my pocket for more than 2 years now with my car keys and some coins...not the best looking but considering the treatment I gave it, it really held well.  I believe the Tung oil is all gone now.

It almost have a "mood" finish wise....there are days it is dull and there are days that it shines almost like the day I finished it.  All it needs is a wipe with cloth and looks good as new.


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## RussFairfield (Jul 9, 2007)

I was going to avoid this question because it isn't worth answering, but it has come too often in recent weeks to be avoided. 

I have absolutely no sympathy for people who carry a pen in their pants pocket, and no solution to the problem of damaged finishes other than recommending carrying a plastic Bic throwaway pen.  Carrying a wood pen in a pants pocket with keys and coins is no different from banging on the dining room table with a claw hammer. I can't understand why someone would do either, and then complain that the finish wasn't any good. The bottom of a womans purse is nothing but a bigger pocket. 

There is nothing you can put on a pen that is permanent. There is nothing that will withstand the abuse of putting the pen in a pants pocket with keys and coins, just as there is nothing that will protect the table from the claw hammer.  Even a solid plastic pen will show scratches and dents from sharp keys.  

It has nothing to do with the hardness of the finish. The softest finish you can put on a pen is wax, followed by shellac, or you can leave the wood bare. Given the same treatment the wood itself will be scratched and dented, and that too will be permanent and definitely not repairable.


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## Ligget (Jul 9, 2007)

If you must carry a pen in your pocket, put it into a leather wallet or velvet pen pouch.


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## thewishman (Jul 9, 2007)

Not even the hardest finsih can totally protect a pen made of soft wood. I made a cherry pen for a customer who carried the pen in his pants pockets, the plexi finish held up but the wood under it got dented. 

I carry a Swiss army knife on my keyring, the keys do severe damage to the plastic case. Pockets with keys and coins are not safe for nice pens.

Chris


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## rd_ab_penman (Jul 9, 2007)

> _Originally posted by RussFairfield_
> <br />I was going to avoid this question because it isn't worth answering, but it has come too often in recent weeks to be avoided.
> 
> I am sorry, but I thought on this form ALL questions were worth answering? Is that not part of the learning experience? I feel, and have told people that I used to supervise, that in order to learn "there is no such thing as a dumb question, just stupid answers!"
> ...


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## gerryr (Jul 9, 2007)

Russ is correct, carrying a pen in a pants pocket or loose in a purse is just begging for the finish to be ruined, no matter what it is.  I never carry a pen in a pants pocket, except if I'm wearing cargo pants or shorts and I don't have a shirt pocket.  I tell my customers not to do that also.  Same thing with being carried loose in a purse.  If you subject something to abuse, don't be surprised or complain when it looks abused.


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## wdcav1952 (Jul 9, 2007)

Les, you are of course entitled to your opinion, just as those who disagree are entitled to theirs.


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## Ron in Drums PA (Jul 9, 2007)

But Russ is right Les.

This reminds me of the age old problem
"If I sit on cold porcelain it must be your fault the lid is up!"

Sometimes you just have to look before you sit.

I always felt stupid questions deserve stupid answers.[]


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## vick (Jul 9, 2007)

I will start out by saying CA is my favorite finish I think it the most durable and best looking of the things I have tried.
Wood is wood nothing will make it indestrictible.


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## EeyorIs21 (Jul 9, 2007)

Can't we all just get along?


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## leehljp (Jul 9, 2007)

George: _<b>I'm beginning to think that the CA is not the great finish it's been made out to be afterall.</b>_

George, Look at it this way - What kind of "other" finish do you think would be better, last longer, protect better, withstand more abuse than CA? If you discover it, please share it here.

A few people say that lacquer does, if applied right - but that takes a week to finish for the right kind of curing. A few people have suggested that acetone/plastic melt would, but that is a "make your own" finish.

In the end, you still wind up with the same problem when putting a pen in your pants pocket. As a woodworker (as a serious hobby) and as part of my "responsibility" on our farm as a kid, I learned what that there is no "absolute" in finishes, only "relative" finishes - depending on who is using and abusing and what one expects and respects concerning the finish.The same applies today with more modern finishes.

AS to Russ, I appreciate Russ's straight forward answers always! When expecting truthful answers from a master craftsman with a lifetime of experience, expect critiquing.

There are dumb people in this world  . . . Famous last words of a red neck: "Hey y'all, watch this!"


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## mdburn_em (Jul 9, 2007)

I purchase the clear tubes and include them with the purchase if there is an indication the lady will carry it in her purse.  They seem to think they can find it easier and it takes the abuse not the pen.

As much as I would like to respond to something else in this post, I won't give in to the provocation.

My thought to the original post is that I feel you've abused the pens.  I don't think the finish is at fault, the pens are in situations they shouldn't be and the finish is doing the best it can.  I have a pen I carry and I do abuse it.  I drop it against the edge of tables and other things.  I want to see how much abuse it actually can take.  I think, you've probably learned what you needed/didn't want to.

If I was going to carry something in my pocket, I would find some nice resins that will still look nice after the abuse.


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## Tuba707 (Jul 9, 2007)

If you must carry in your pocket, you most likely have two pockets, so one can be for your keys and one can be for your pen.  If that doesn't work, like Russ said, get a Bic =)  Every finish has its limitations.  I supposed you could make a pen out of hardened drill rod and coat it with TiN.  That would possibly damage the keys, though []


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## thewishman (Jul 9, 2007)

> _Originally posted by Tuba707_
> I supposed you could make a pen out of hardened drill rod and coat it with TiN.  That would possibly damage the keys, though []



[][][][][]

What brand of sandpaper would you recommend for that kind of a pen?

Thanks for making me laugh!

Chris


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## Tuba707 (Jul 9, 2007)

Cloth-backed diamond grit, of course []

Well, I thought this thread needed a laugh.


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## Texatdurango (Jul 9, 2007)

> _Originally posted by mdburn_em_
> My thought to the original post is that I feel you've abused the pens.


Actually Mark you are correct, this was an experiment of sorts and carrying it around in my pants pockets was on purpose.  To be fair though it wasn't glumped in with car keys, change or any of the other items mentioned in the above posts, nor was it rolled around in the gravel parking lots daily, it was just used daily with no special treatment or special caring.

The pen I have been carrying around was the second closed end pen I made and I got a little too close to the brass at the bottom so the pen was basically a reject so no big deal.  I've always been curious to see how well the CA finish would hold up to normal use witout being coddled.  

Wow, lots of interesting replies, looks like some nerves have been touched, didn't mean to get everyone upset... I thought this was a forum for sharing ideas!


And Russ... I won't come down to your level other than to say your reply was the most childish I have read on this forum since joining.

If you thought my question was so out-of-place in a pen making forum, you should have been adult enough to just hit the back button rather than wasting your precious time with writing such a reply.

George


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## wdcav1952 (Jul 9, 2007)

Sorry, George, but the latter part of your post was at a lower level all by itself.


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## RussFairfield (Jul 9, 2007)

It doesn't surprize me that there was a "rest of the story" that wasn't included with the original question?  That happens all to often, and is often the cause of misunderstandings.

I answered a question that has been often asked by someone who has abused a piece of wood and then complained about the finish. If my wording offended you, I am sorry. If the truth hurts, thats life.


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## DCBluesman (Jul 9, 2007)

George - Let me start by responding to your initial post.  Yes, I have monitored pens that I have finished with CA, lacquer, friction polish and other products.  In terms of durability, CA is very hard and does not wear much in typical use.  I use it on occasion when I need a quick and durable finish.  I have never had a CA finished pen returned due to excessive wear.  With my experience and your comment that it has "indentions (sic), knicks, marks, or whatever you want to call them" these could only have come from contact with something harder than your finish.  I cannot begin to guess what that might have been since you do not carry hard things in your pockets.  I also can't tell you what is in your wife's pocket book that may have cause the damage, but I can tell you that I'm not sure if a titanium pen could stand to be rattled around with the junk my ex- used to carry in her purse.

Since we cannot identify a source of the damage, it is possible that your finishing method is poorly done.  It is also possible that you had some bad CA.  It is possible that you had a contaminant on the surface that you finished.  The least likely response is that CA is not a durable finish.  It is used by too many turners with excellent and durable results to think that the CA finish is the culprit.  I would strongly advise that you try other finishes and see what produces a more durable finish for you.

Now, in response to your latest post in the thread, this site does not tolerate personal attacks.  Period.  It's in the rules for forum conduct.  You asked for opinions. Russ gave you his opinion along with an understandable analogy.  To turn his reponse around and indicate that Russ's answer is "childish" is not appropriate.  Beyond it being inappropriate, it shows a lack of understanding of the merits of discussion.  A reasonable thought before making such an inflammatory post would be "Am I faulting the opinion or the person?"  If it is the former, that is what open debate and discussion on a forum is all about.  If it is the latter, it is better left unwritten.

Just my two cents worth.


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## GaryMGg (Jul 9, 2007)

Lou,

Your command of the english language is eloquent.
I slightly _modified_ your statement:



> A reasonable thought before making an [opinionated] post would be "Am I faulting the opinion or the person?" If it is the former, that is what open debate and discussion on a forum is all about. If it is the latter, it is better left unwritten.



That's the quintessential essence of communication in a public forum.
Thanks for reminding us and following your own advice. Well done! [^]

Gary


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## Texatdurango (Jul 10, 2007)

> _Originally posted by RussFairfield_
> <br />It doesn't surprize me that there was a "rest of the story"...



OK, before this thread gets too carried away let me re-post a few things to clear the air before the thread is locked.

For startersâ€¦ the title of the threadâ€¦

<b>Is CA REALLY that good?</b>

That was the topic and what I hoped to get answers or opinions aboutâ€¦ NOT weather I was STUPID enough to carry a pen around in my pants pocket.  

My comment below was meant to give you an idea of how the pens were handled in â€œReal worldâ€ useage.  

"Usually I keep a pen in my shirt pocket but seldom wear pocketed shirts while RV'ing so keep the pen in my pants pocket and have noticed that it has suffered several tiny indentions, knicks, marks, or whatever you want to call them.

I asked my wife to see the pen she carries in her purse and it looks about the same, which brings me to my question...."

And finally to the questionâ€¦.

"These CA finishes may look spectacular when new BUT does anyone ever check to see how they "weather" when in real world use?"

Pretty simple question really, just wanting to know if others had a chance to look at their CA finishes a few months down the road, not trying to knock the finish itself or get in to a debate over the PROPER way of handling a pen.

As I have stated in almost every post I have ever made on this forum (you can go look it up)â€¦ â€œall constructive comments, pro or con, are welcomeâ€.  And I mean just that because I donâ€™t ask a question, not to hear answers.

You folks take all the pot shots you care to BUT, when someone starts their reply withâ€¦. 

<b>"I was going to avoid this question because it isn't worth answering,"</b>

I donâ€™t care if they are the grand poobah of the entire pen making world, president of the IAP, pen makers guild, or whateverâ€¦ that comment was clearly out of line, not constructive, it was inappropriate and uncalled forâ€¦ period!  And <b>THAT</b> is what I got upset about, NOT him stating his opinion.

Russ, I have visited your website many times, watched your videos and have learned a lot from you and appreciate that you have taken your time to help others and I donâ€™t have a thing against you stating your opinion, either pro or con to anything I post.  I just donâ€™t think the first sentence in your post was appropriate, called for or deserved.  I didn't think my question was that far fetched and had no idea of what has been discussed the past few weeks since I have been offline.  Perhaps with your position within the IAP as a revered senior member, you feel you can make such comments and everyone will overlook them but I really donâ€™t think you needed to start your thread that way just to make a point.

Well, thatâ€™s it, I just wanted to clear the stage before things got too carried away with folks jumping in after only reading some of the posts and turning this into a witch hunt.

George


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## Texatdurango (Jul 10, 2007)

> _Originally posted by DCBluesman_
> <br />...You asked for opinions. Russ gave you his opinion along with an understandable analogy.  To turn his reponse around and indicate that Russ's answer is "childish" is not appropriate.  Beyond it being inappropriate, it shows a lack of understanding of the merits of discussion.  A reasonable thought before making such an inflammatory post would be "Am I faulting the opinion or the person?"  If it is the former, that is what open debate and discussion on a forum is all about.  If it is the latter, it is better left unwritten.
> 
> Just my two cents worth.


Lou, Thanks for the reply, I hope after reading my post above you and others can appreciate where I was coming from with my comments.  You are correct, I did ask for opinions and am fully able to deal with any and all comments pertaining to my question.

As I stated in my post above, It was not his entire post I had a problem with and I stand by my comments about how he started out his post.

If you honestly feel the first sentence in his post was appropriate, then we will just agree to disagree and let it go at that.... I'm going fishing!

George


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## Mudder (Jul 10, 2007)

Where is the pickle pen when we need it?


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## ahoiberg (Jul 10, 2007)

let's get back to the question at hand here folks. 

i carry my pen around in my pocket quite often when i can't hang it in my button up area in a collared shirt. i just hang the clip on the outside of my pocket and, quite frankly, the finish hasn't damaged one bit. it's an afzelia burl with thin ca finish. i also carry my keys in the same pocket. i've probably carried it in my pocket 50+ days and have yet to see a scratch on it. i guess it depends on how you carry it. plus, who cares if it gets a few scratches on it?? i guess some would, but that shows a pen that gets used IMHO.

on the other hand, just the other night, the bottom of the pen came unscrewed from the cap hanging on the outside of the pocket and i ended up with a nice, big ink stain on my jeans pocket... whoops! hairspray gets that out pretty well BTW.

maybe an epoxy finish would hold up better?? []


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## Texatdurango (Jul 10, 2007)

> _Originally posted by ahoiberg_
> <br />let's get back to the question at hand here folks.
> 
> i carry my pen around in my pocket quite often when i can't hang it in my button up area in a collared shirt. i just hang the clip on the outside of my pocket and, quite frankly, the finish hasn't damaged one bit. it's an afzelia burl with thin ca finish. i also carry my keys in the same pocket. i've probably carried it in my pocket 50+ days and have yet to see a scratch on it. i guess it depends on how you carry it. plus, who cares if it gets a few scratches on it?? i guess some would, but that shows a pen that gets used IMHO.
> ...


Like yourself, I haven't gotten any scratches on my pen either and it is still just as shiny as the day I made it.  But now, that shiny "gloss line" when held to the light is interrupted by several litle "dents", a few of which I did with my thumbnail just to see how hard the CA finish was.

A comment several posts above got me to thinking... Could the toughness of the CA finish or "dent resistance" vary with the age, brand or thickness of the CA used?  Or... could the wood itself play a larger role than I am thinking?  The particular blank I used on this pen was a non-stabalized buckeye burl, rather soft in it's own right.  

It was suggested that my problem might be in my application of the CA but I don't think that's it because several (more learned) pen turners have commented on the quality of my finishes and all my pens look and feel the same to me.


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## ahoiberg (Jul 10, 2007)

george,

the piece of wood definitely plays an important role. i've got a friend whom i gave a CA finished pen made of yew and that thing dented like mad. he uses a pen more than anyone i've ever met and he carries it around in his pocket. i've refinished it 3 times for him so far. but it's a slimline and easy to do so on. and like i said, the afzelia burl hasn't been affected a bit yet. so i think you're line of thinking is correct here.


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## Thumbs (Jul 10, 2007)

Whew!  Well, George, I guess you can see what happens when you take exception to anything voiced by the Gods of penturning here at IAP. 

I think the "facts" presented by many exhibited and offered valid points in the question of a pen finish. The question of finish, however, seemed to become one of a question of character and intelligence of the questioner.  Apparently, you are not allowed to differ under any circumstance or situation with the common interpretation of "The Word."  NO QUESTIONS! GOT THAT?  Early on, I thought most responses were reasonable and only a few a bit churlish but forgiveable for the information contained therein.  

If the conversation were personal, over the fence as it were,I'm sure it would have meant nothing between two guys; BUT it seemed to be taken as an attack signal by the horde!

The Mighty Minions and Sycophants will attack without mercy or quarter!  Of course, some of them also think they are gods of penturning, too. I guess that's why their own hypocrisy is so forgiveable when they demean others.  Let them congratulate each other and pat themselves on their winged backs.  

I only hope their poor behavior does not intimidate either you or new members from trying to enjoy this association and learning from each other.  I think this behavior and the other recent threads used to assassinate your character can only diminish the participation of the newer members and a goodly number of older members of this forum.  

This "clique" of "superior members" has a history of hypocrisy (word for the day) that is appalling........  They seem to enjoy "ganging up" like sharks in a frenzy to gorge on the ones chosen to be their "daily feast."  I apologize to you and our newer members for this disgraceful behavior.  I suppose they'll wish to "chew" on me for a bit, now.  Good Luck! [][V]


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## wdcav1952 (Jul 10, 2007)

For what it is worth, I have asked Jeff to consider locking this thread as it seems determined to flame back up and cause problems.


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## jeff (Jul 10, 2007)

Thanks for the heads-up, Mr. Cavanaugh. You're right, this is going nowhere, fast.


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