# Getting a few "nice" tools



## SCustom (Nov 10, 2010)

So far for all of my turning, I've been using relatively inexpensive tools.

I use an 8 piece kit I got at Harbor Freight. http://www.harborfreight.com/8-piece-high-speed-steel-wood-lathe-chisel-set-47066.html






Description of Windsor Design  47066                                                                           

High speed steel stays sharp longer than carbon steel
Smooth Ashwood handles with lacquer finish
Brass ferrules prevent handles from splitting under pressure
Wood case
16-15/16'' long
                                                                              1'' & 3/4'' roughing gouges, 1/8'' parting  tool, 1/2'' & 1'' skew chisels, 1/2'' round nose scraper, 1/2"  beveled scraper, 1/4'' spindle gouge                                                             Shipping Weight: 6.44 lbs.

I also bought on the same day (because with a coupon I had it was basically free) this set: http://www.harborfreight.com/8-piece-wood-lathe-turning-tool-kit-3793.html






                      Description of Pittsburgh  3793                    
                                                             Made of heavy duty triple tempered tool steel, the 4-1/2" long  precision ground tips let you to turn out work like a master craftsman.


Includes 1/4", 1/2" and 3/4" gouge
1/2" and 1" skew
1/2" spear point
1/2" parting tool
and 1/2" round
10" hardwood handles minimize operator fatigue
                                                                                    Shipping Weight: 3.24 lbs.


I didn't realize how little work I would be able to do without constantly sharpening it every couple of minutes.  It also just generally was not a pleasant set for me to use, so I'm thinking of selling it at the local flea market or a garage sale, or something.

The last set of tools I bought was this:

http://www.grizzly.com/products/HSS-Lathe-Chisels-5-pc-Set/H7941





*Description*
        These beading scrapers make spindle turning and bowl beading  easy and precise. Each high speed steel chisel measures roughly 13-1/2"  long with beefy 3/16 - 1/4" thick blades and 83/4" ash handles. The tool  tip design allows single beads or closely stacked beads for creative  flexibility. The set includes 1/8", 1/4", 5/16" and 3/8" diameter bead  scrapers and 3/8" diameter skewed double bevel beading tool. The chisel  set is protected in a fitted wooden box. 


Basically, I wanted my beads on things like candlesticks to be perfect and consistent.  I still have a lot of practice to do to before I think I'm ready for an expensive high quality set for my regular chisels, BUT when it comes to pen turning, I've done enough of them down that I feel I've got enough practice to warrant an upgrade to a nice "Pen Set".

I've seen pen sets advertised that were made by Robert Sorby, Pinnacle, etc.  I have no idea if these high priced tools are worth the money, or if you're just paying for the name?

For example: 

From http://www.grizzly.com/products/Micro-Pen-Turning-Set/H9080






*Description*
        These [Robert Sorby] micro turning tools were specifically designed for the pen  turner. Each has a handle length of 6-1/4" with an overall length of  10". Roughing Gouge comes with a 5/16" blade, the Parting Tool with a  1/16" and the Spindlemaster with a 1/2". Buy all 3 and save! 

From Woodcraft: http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/2020989/25248/Pinnacle-Cryogenic-3-pc--Pen-Set.aspx





*Product Information:*
         Set contains a 1/4" Bowl Gouge, a 1/2" Oval Skew Chisel and a 1/8" Parting Tool.

Whether  you are a professional production turner or a hobbyist with limited  shop time, these cryogenically treated tools stay sharp two to three  times longer than standard M-2 high-speed steel tools so you are turning  more and sharpening less! Manufactured in Sheffield exclusively for  Woodcraft, these cryogenically treated turning tools offer many of the  characteristics of powdered metal tools without the cost of powdered  metal tools. The cryogenic treatment process uses sub-zero temperatures,  down to -300 degrees F, to modify the micro-structure of the steel into  a more uniform grain structure that allows you to hone to a fine edge  without chipping. Also, your cutting edge is more durable and more  resistant to wear. Each tool is mounted in a European ash handle. The  pen turner's set is the perfect set for turning small projects like pen  and bottle stoppers. Appropriately sized (approximately 9" long) so you  won't get worn out doing a lot of small turning like you might if using  standard tools. The cryogenic blade durability will come in handy  turning almost anything you can drive a pen blank into from the toughest  plastics to the hardest woods. Three-piece set contains a 1/4" bowl  gouge, a 1/2" oval skew chisel and a 1/8" parting tool.

<li style="margin-left: 20px;">Sub-zero cryogenically treated blades<li style="margin-left: 20px;">Manufactured in Sheffield, England<li style="margin-left: 20px;">European ash handles<li style="margin-left: 20px;">Woodcraft exclusive design<li style="margin-left: 20px;">9" Length         


...
So How are these different or perhaps better than say this set: http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/2003974/9193/3-Piece-Pen-Turning-Set.aspx






*Product Information:*
         Specifically designed for pen turning, these scaled-down High  Speed Steel (HSS) tools are the perfect size for all your small turning  projects. Tools are approximately 11" long with 8" handles, complete  with wooden case.  

High speed steel (often abbreviated HSS, sometimes HS) is a material  usually used in the manufacture of machine tool bits and other cutters.  It is often used in power saw blades and drill bits. It is superior to  the older high carbon steel tools used extensively through the 1940s in  that it can withstand higher temperatures without losing its temper  (hardness). This property allows HSS to cut faster than high carbon  steel, hence the name high speed steel. At room temperature, in their  generally recommended heat treatment, HSS grades generally display high  hardness (above HRC60) and a high abrasion resistance (generally linked  to tungsten content often used in HSS) compared to common carbon and  tool steels. 



<li style="margin-left: 20px;">Set includes: 3/8" gouge, 1/2" skew, 1/8" parting tool<li style="margin-left: 20px;">High Speed Steel<li style="margin-left: 20px;">Designed and scaled down for pen turning<li style="margin-left: 20px;">Complete with a wooden case<li style="margin-left: 20px;">The perfect size for all of your small turning projects

OR THIS

http://www.pennstateind.com/store/LCPM3.html






Sharp and long lasting, this M2 High Speed Steel set is designed specifally for pen turning,. These tools are all you need to quickly cut your pen blanks with ease and precision. All three are 11" long. Set includes:


Spindle Gouge for rough cutting: 3/8" wide and 3 1/2" long  blade.
Parting Tool for tenons: 1/16" thick and 3 1/2" long blade
Skew Chisel for smooth cuts and finish turning: 1/2" Wide and 3 1/2" long blade
 

Basically, I'm looking to upgrade when it comes to pen working.  I want something nice, but I don't know what nice is. 

Thanks for any advice you can offer,


----------



## stolicky (Nov 10, 2010)

I don't have experience with all of the tools you listed above, but here is my opinion and experience.  First, sharpening is part of turning.  It is, unfortunately, a necessary evil.  If you don't like to sharpen, the carbide tools are an option, but are not really the same type of tools you show above.  Plus, you can get a finer/sharper edge on HSS than you can on carbide.

Now, to the tools.  I started with the PSI "Pen Turning" set.  I basically used the oval skew and parting tool the most.  These tools were subjected to my sharpening learn curve.  I have evolved to using a Thompson spindle gouge (3/8", 1/2", and 5/8") to rough down a blank.  I then use either a Sorby 1/2" or 3/4" oval skew to finish turning it.  I like using oval skews for pen turning.  They are more difficult to sharpen though.

I find that the Thompson tools hold an edge for a relatively long time.  I also simply use a flat diamond home on the oval skews several times before I actual 'sharpen' them.

Good luck.


----------



## gketell (Nov 10, 2010)

You already have HSS tools.  What don't you like about them?  Or what do you feel needs to be improved on the ones you have?  Really, the next step up from HSS is the cryogenically treated tools.  In that arena you really can't beat the Thompson Lathe Tools for quality.  Not only are they cryo tools but they are made from powdered steel so they have a finer grain to them.   They keep their edges for a VERY long time.  Not cheap, but with how seldom you will be sharpening I think the extra $$ are easily "earned" back in how long they last.

As for "size", a pen set is just a "normal" set that has been shortened down:  shorter handles and shorter steel.  Why buy a dedicated pen set that you then have to buy duplicated of "the same" 3/8 spindle gouge when you start doing bigger stuff.  If you find a group of tools you use a lot, just buy the full sized set of the upgraded tools.  Then you can use them on pens but  also on bowls, vases, and whatever else you might make.


----------



## snyiper (Nov 10, 2010)

I think you will find every one is different in reguards to tools they use. I my self use a 1/4 skew 1 in skew and Carbide tool. I have others but these are my go to tools. The Skews are craftsman and the Carbide is home made. If possible try the tools you think you may like and just get the ones you may need.


----------



## monophoto (Nov 10, 2010)

Our local TV stations are running a commercial in which various people say "I've got gas".  Now, they are actually advertising a propane service, but when I hear the ads I can't help but think about the alternate meaning of the term - gas = gear acquisition syndrome.

Unfortunately, gas is one of the characteristics of any adult hobby - the desire for more gadgetry.  That's why adult hobbies are so expensive.

I started out with a no-name 'starter set' that came with my lathe.  A 1/2" spindle gouge, 1/4" parting tool, and 1/2" skew.  They need frequent sharpening, but that's mot a bad thing - I needed to learn how to sharpen.  Incidentally, I use an oil stone to 'tune up' the tools prior to starting each session, and periodically 'sharpen' them using a sanding disc.

Over time, I've added a 1/16" narrow parting tool, 1/4" spindle gouge, 1/2" round nose scraper, and 1/2" bowl gouge.  All high-speed steel that require far less frequent sharpening.  I don't think I really need anything else.

Eventually, I would like to replace the starter tools with high-speed steel - but there's entirely too much useful life left in them to ditch them at this point.


----------



## SCustom (Nov 11, 2010)

The Pittspurgh set is not HSS.  That's why I had to sharpen it too much.

I guess what this comes down to is that I have to wonder - why did the total amount I pay for both of my sets equal the amount for 2 basic Sorby tools?  I mean, I paid less than $100 for all of my current lathe chisels.  While I'm sure that some of it is paying for the name, but I also have to wonder if there are different quality standards.

As for why I am pondering getting a pen chisel kit, I think I might have more control and precision with the smaller size of the tools.

I'm just thinking out loud here.  There's not really all that wrong with what I've been using --- but then again, I wouldn't really know without having a basis for comparison.  If I had tried my inexpensive lathe chisels AND a "high end" lathe chisels of identical type, it would make figuring this out easier   On the other hand, I'm not going to spend $50+ just to run my little experiment

One thing you guys will soon realize about me, is that I through out a lot of thoughts to discuss.  I find that collaborating with others on my thought process helps me explore angles I wouldn't have otherwise explored.


----------



## SCustom (Nov 11, 2010)

I was sleepy last night (I actually just kind of passed out from exhaustion minutes after posting the above post) and make a large number of errors, grammatical, typographical, and otherwise.  I just wanted to apologize for how poorly written the post is, and I hope that everybody was able to figure out what I was trying to say.


----------



## holmqer (Nov 12, 2010)

I don't know if the high end tools are really worth it even though I own them! I have mostly Sorby and Thompson tools and like them both. Most of the folks I know around here who do lots of larger turnings have a tool mix like I do. I turn a few dozen bowls and platters a year plus a variety of odds and ends several dozen pens a year. I know that my 1/2" Thompson V Bowl Gouge works fantastic for me to the point where I use my Sorby 1/2" for roughing cuts then switch to the Thompson for all finish work. I get much cleaner results with the Thompson.

On the other hand, I see little difference in results between my Sorby 3/4" Oval Skew and my Thompson 1" Skew, both give me great results. I get equal great results with my $3 homemade 1/4" round skew, I just took a piece of round HSS and ground a skew.


----------



## SCustom (Dec 15, 2010)

I replaced the Harbor Freight set with another Harbor Freight set, but the best that they sell.

As far as cheap tools, I'm going to use that set, and the Grizzly Industrial beading set, but I recently started getting Robert Sorby micro tools.  Eventually, I hope to replace the Harbor Freight and Grizzly sets with Sorbys (Sorby's beading selection seems much nicer than my beading set anyways.)  I'm basically just following through with my original plan.  When I bought the first set of Harbor Freight tools, I intended to use them to get started and learn but get nicer tools when I new what I was doing.  I've learned a lot since then and the only reason I got a second set of Harbor Freight tools was because they were on sale and I had 2 20% off coupons and the lady who was the cashier was really nice and somehow put them both on (compounded them) the sale price, so I got them for about what it would cost me to buy a mediocre sit down lunch.

FYI - the old tools are for sale, but I doubt any of you are interested.   They're all used and have been sharpened with a bench grinder freehand a lot.  I'll probably just sell them on Craigslist, or donate them to some place that teaches wood turning and needs cheap tools to lend to beginners if nobody in the end buys them.


----------



## Padre (Dec 15, 2010)

You've gotten a lot of great advice so far.

HSS will entail less sharpening than most of the less expensive tools.

You can then step up into the powdered metal tools, cryogenic tools, etc.

I think there is a HUGE difference in quality between a Harbor Freight tool set and the higher end tools.  Sorby, Thompson, Pinnacle, Monster, Robust, Crown, Taylor......... and on and on.

I personally have Pinnacle and Sorby and love them.

If you have a local club you could talk to the members there.  

But be warned, as my Mama used to say "Opinions are like bellybuttons, everyone has one."


----------



## PenMan1 (Dec 15, 2010)

I own and have used almost all of the tools you mentioned in your post.
I am not a Sorby fan, simply because the tiny handles get lost in my gorilla sized hands. I've either traded, sold or given away all of the Sorbys.

I do keep some larger handled HSS tools but my pen making has basically turned to 4 tools: a Woodchuck Pen Pro carbide cutter, a file for use on brass and aluminum, a parting knife made from a Lennox reciprocating saw blade and a $21 carbide tipped Benjamin's Best skew chisel.

I hate sharpening tools! The combination above keeps me making pens and not agonizing over a grinder wheel.


----------



## Mapster (Dec 15, 2010)

The only tool I know of that makes a large difference is a carbide tipped tool like the woodchuck pen pro. I turned an aluminum jr gent without sharpening once.


----------



## jskeen (Dec 16, 2010)

Turning tools sell by the same rules that most any other mass produced item does.  It will sell for what people will pay for it.  The thing that probably 75 percent of people will pay for is a name that has a reputation for quality.  That reputation is often based on one good idea somebody had at some point in the past, and might be totally unrelated to anything else they sell, but the reputation will still support a premium price.  Enough of my somewhat jaded view on marketing.  

As for steel in and of it's self.  I made custom knives for many years, and spoke and corresponded with lots of people in the field of metallurgy.   I don't remember all the details, but I do know something about this.  There are 3 basic functional classifications of tool steel.  There is the cheap stuff, and you never really know what is in it.  The reason it is cheap is not always that it is poor quality, but that it is inconsistent.  Quality control is expensive.  The next classification is the consistent high quality normal tool steel.  This is what 95 percent of name brand tools are made from.  Then there are the exotics, specialty steels that are designed and produced for specific applications and or qualities.  These are expensive not just because they are necessarily superior to the others, but also largely because they are not produced in large quantities.  These would include specialty process steels like CPM or powdered metal steels, ultra abrasion resistant steels like BG 42 and ats34.  Cryogenic treated steels sorta fall into this class functionally too.  

What does that translate into for the turning tool buyer?  There is a pretty big difference in useability between the first and second groups, the mystery metal no name stuff is usually pretty poor in performance.   But the next step up is not as high as you might think.  Any company that is willing to pay for decent quality tool steel can get very high quality tools, consistently, and at a very reasonable price.  So there is going to be a big difference between that 8 dollar set from harbor freight and the 40 dollar set.  But the difference in performance between the 3/4 gouge from that set and a 3/4 gouge from sorby or crown or benjamin's best is going to be surprisingly small, nowhere near the difference in price.  In order to get a substantial improvement in performance over these tools, you are going to have to spend a big chunk of money on materials.  These would be the small market name brand tools, often made to specification for a turner to sell under his own name.  
So, if you have $30 or $40 to spend, you will probably get more use out of a couple of less expensive tools than one medium to high price one.  But if you can afford to spend $100 on a specific tool, You can probably get a significant increase in performance over the medium price tools.  

Of course that's just my opinion, and you know what they say about those.


----------



## aggromere (Dec 17, 2010)

I have experimented with a wide variety of insert tools in an attempt to avoid sharpening.  They all work well, for me, in removing material but do not work well for delicate work or final shaping.  I have an easy rougher and a mini easy finisher from easy wood tools.  the rougher takes a square blank to round really fast and the finisher can clean it up and shape it, but I have issues with high and low spots due to its round cutter insert.  I also have the insert tool available here on the forums but still have trouble using it.

when I first started I bought a cheap 4 piece mini tool set for pen turning.   I used the set for a good long while and then gradually begin buying full size tools one at a time.  Now, my favorite tools by far is a 3/4 inch Sorby oval skew.

However, it would be close to impossible for me to get a good result without using an oval skew of which I have several.  having a sharp edge is essential.  I have been hand sharpening them and only occassionally get the edge I need, so I just broke down and purchased the Tormek T3.  I also like using a large gouge and when sharp can comfortably remove material and shape the blank.  All of them are HSS.


----------



## jskeen (Dec 17, 2010)

aggromere said:


> However, it would be close to impossible for me to get a good result without using an oval skew of which I have several.  having a sharp edge is essential.  I have been hand sharpening them and only occassionally get the edge I need, so I just broke down and purchased the Tormek T3.  I also like using a large gouge and when sharp can comfortably remove material and shape the blank.  All of them are HSS.



Even with a tormek, it's still a bit of a trick to get an oval skew consistently sharp and with the same angle every time.  I saw somewhere a nifty little sled somebody had made, about 1/4 thick with a shallow groove to match the radius of the oval in the top.  it was about 3 inches long and the back (handle) end had been cut off and glued on top so that there was an oval hole that fitted the blade pretty closely.  the business end of the skew overhung the end of the sled about 3 inches, and by sliding the chisel through the hole and resting the flat bottom on the tool rest, he was able to consistently reproduce the angle on both sides of the skew every time.  I could see that saving a lot of steel by eliminating multiple grinds trying to match the two bevels.


----------



## randyrls (Dec 17, 2010)

SCustom said:


> The Pittspurgh set is not HSS.  That's why I had to sharpen it too much.
> 
> As for why I am pondering getting a pen chisel kit, I think I might have more control and precision with the smaller size of the tools.




There was an article in a magazine where they tested different tools from all kinds of suppliers.  AAW I believe or  Woodturning Design?

The PSI set didn't rate as high in metallurgy as some of the others but seemed to do better on the usage tests.

I would not get a pen set.  A standard tool set of medium good quality and good sharpening technique and PRACTICE is more important than getting the best tools available.  Check the American Association of Woodturners (AAW) web site for a club near you and if you think your technique could use some help, ASK!

Our Woodturner club visited a woodturner named Mark Supik.  I learned a lot because hands-on from an experienced woodturner is the only way to go.


----------

