# Getting started kitless



## Joe S.

I would like to start kitless pen making, but I have NO idea on how taps and dies work. Could someone help a beginner and tell me some sample sizes for a kitless pen. Just so I know which taps and dies to get.

Plus: any hints on making a "section"?


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## LL Woodworks

The library has several articles on making sections and "kitless" construction, Within those articles, several sizes are referenced.  Some I've seen referenced are;

M12 x .8 triple
M9 x .075
M10 x 1.0
M10 x 0.75

I use 1/2-28;  M10 x 1.0; M9x 0.75; M12 x 1.0; a few others,  plus the Bock feed taps for #5 and #6 Feeds.

Do your research; some guys use different sizes and there are more for larger pens.  Good Luck!


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## Andrew_K99

What YOU need depends on what size pens YOU want to make and what feeds you'll be using (#5 or #6).

One thing I have taken from George's comments is that there is not one right way to make a kitless pen, there may be incorrect ways, but not one right way.

My first kitless pen (which is in progress) uses M12x.75 cap/body threads and M9x.75 for the section/body threads.  The body will be a closed end and the clip will held on with a finial threaded M12x.75.

AK


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## BSea

Here are a few links to get you started.  But there really isn't a true starters list because "kitless" really means custom.  So you really need to pick what style you want to do 1st.  The main reason is that different feed housings require different taps.  So pick one to start with, and go from there.

Different Housings:
CLASSIC NIB - FEEDS
Nibs - Indy~Pen~Dance
Meisternibs - Blog


Taps & Dies:
silverpenparts.com - TOOLS - Taps and dies
http://www.classicnib.com/feeds.html 

IAP Threads:
http://www.penturners.org/forum/f56/looking-go-kitless-95068/
http://www.penturners.org/forum/f56/kit-less-starter-guide-101423/
http://www.penturners.org/forum/f56/my-kitless-kit-96750/

There is also an article in the library on making a section.
http://content.penturners.org/library/pens/fountainpensection.pdf

That should at least get you pointed in the right direction.


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## Joe S.

My problem is I don't know what those numbers mean...


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## Jim Burr

I'm right along with you Joe. Go to Youtube and look up Steve4948 and his video "Making kitless pens on a wood lathe". That combined with Bigshed's tutorial on the front page should be more than enough to get going. I bought some 3/4" acrylic rod (ebay) to practice with. As a thought, think about buying your sections to start then work your way up. Just jump in and go for it!!


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## Andrew_K99

Joe S. said:


> My problem is I don't know what those numbers mean...


Then READ, READ and READ some more before spending any money. There is a LOT of information on here. I'd also suggest making a few sketches of pens that you see in SOYP's and mentally build them, figure out how many threaded connections actually exist on the pens, then start piecing together what you need.

Just be warned, if you are starting from scratch is can be expensive. I bought a collect chuck, collet set, drill chuck, tap holder, die holder, a few taps, a few dies, a few drill bits, etc., etc. just to get started. You also have to consider that each pen requires a nib and feed and likely a clip, these plus blank material will cost $20+ per pen.

AK


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## BSea

Joe S. said:


> My problem is I don't know what those numbers mean...



For metric taps & dies it's pretty easy.

 a 12mm X .8mm means that the outer diameter is 12 MM, and the pitch (space between the threads) is .8mm.  And a good rule of thumb is that the hole you drill is the diameter of the tap minus the pitch.  So to use the 12mm X .8 tap, you'll drill a hole about 11.2MM. It doesn't have to be exactly 11.2mm, just something close.

About the best recommendation I have is to go through the library.  There are tap & die charts to show what bit to use with each.  

Kitless requires some homework. :wink:


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## IPD_Mr

And when you are ready to start buy some cheap clear acrylic rod to practice on.  The clear is a great choice because it is cheaper and it allows you to see what is going on inside of the material.


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## azamiryou

Tap: cuts threads on the inside of a hole.
Die: cuts threads on the outside of a rod.

Taps and dies are specified with two numbers: the outside diameter and the thread pitch. For example, M7 x .75 means a metric tap/die that's 7mm in diameter and threads are .75mm apart. For imperial units, the pitch is usually given in TPI, and if the major diameter is less than 1/4", it's given as a standardized number. So 4-40 means #4 size (=0.112") and 40 TPI.

The "diameter" here is the diameter for the outside of the male part, so an M7x.75 die will work on a 7mm rod, but the tap needs a hole smaller than that (so there's material to cut the threads out of). With metric, you can get the target hole size by subtracting the thread pitch from the outside diameter, so this tap requires a 6.25mm hole. It's okay if the rod is a hair small or the hole is a hair big, in fact that can make for easier operation.

For custom pens, you'll need taps/dies that match any commercially made parts you are using. For threads where you'll be cutting both the male and female side, you can choose any size and pitch you want.


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## Texatdurango

Joe,  As an aid in helping you get started, here is a list of every drill and tap I use to make one particular pen. With this pen you have five pieces to make and the order you make them in isn't really important but just relax, sit back and think about how the pieces fit together and before you know it, you have a mockup of your pen.  Remember.... you are NOT trying to make a functional pen the first few go rounds, just practicing making the parts then seeing how they will fit together.

As you make the pieces, keep in mind the clip you want to use as it will determine the thread sizes used for the finial and the overall diameter of the pen.

The pen shown below was made by using these drills, taps and dies and nothing else.  I use a lot of metric drills but if you don't have them, don't worry, just use something similar in size and it might work.  If my counting is accurate, you will use 10 different drill bits, 3 taps and two dies.

Sources I used for the tools:

Center drill, general taps and dies - Victor tools  www.victornet.com/index.html

14mm multi-start tap and die set - Mike Redburn www.silverpenparts.com/ 

For the clips, Bock taps and Bock nibs and feeds I use both Mike Kennedy www.indy-pen-dance.com/ and Roy Robaldo  CLASSIC NIB - FEEDS
So, here ya go, the tools and basically where they are used.......... HAVE FUN!

 [FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]*Upper Finial*[/FONT]
[FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]Turn rod to .630” dia then turn a .395” tenon then cut 10mm x 1mm threads with a die
[/FONT]
[FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]*Lower Finial –*[/FONT]
[FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]Turn rod to .520”[/FONT][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif] dia then turn tenon .250” wide x .375” dia to fit snugly into a 9.5mm hole, part off leaving exposed finial .300” long, with a total finial .550” long.[/FONT] 

 [FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]*Body – *[/FONT] 
[FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]Turn rod to .5[/FONT][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]75” dia[/FONT][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]at [/FONT][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]least 3.1"long [/FONT]*[FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]then c[/FONT]*[FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]enter drill and square up one edge[/FONT]
[FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]Drill 9.5mm hole then glue in silver ring and finial [/FONT] 
[FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]Cut 14mm M/S threads with die[/FONT]
[FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]Drill 6.4mm to 3.00” depth for converter clearance[/FONT]
[FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]Drill 8mm to 2.4” depth for converter clearance[/FONT]
[FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]Drill 9mm to .500” depth[/FONT] 
[FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]Tap 10mm x 1mm threads [/FONT] 

[FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]*Cap – *[/FONT] 
[FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]Turn rod to .640” dia at least 2.4” long then center drill and square up one edge[/FONT]
[FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]Drill 9.7mm to 1.9” depth[/FONT]
[FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]Drill 1/2” to 1.25” depth[/FONT]
[FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]Drill 33/64” to 1.0” [/FONT] 
[FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]Tap to cut 14mm M/S threads [/FONT] 
[FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]Flip blank, then square edge and center drill[/FONT]
[FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]Drill 9mm hole to .5” depth[/FONT]
[FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]Tap 10mm x 1mm threads [/FONT] 

[FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]*Section for #6 Bock feed *[/FONT] 
[FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]Turn blank to .490” diameter[/FONT]
[FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]Drill 6.4mm hole 1.3” deep[/FONT]
[FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]Turn a .210” wide tenon to .390” diameter, thread with 10mm x 1mm die[/FONT]
[FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]Drill 7.0mm hole to .100” depth for converter lip clearance [/FONT] 
[FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]Part off to 1.185” long then flip around in chuck[/FONT]
[FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]Drill 7.3mm hole to .820” depth for tapping [/FONT] 
[FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]Drill 8.2mm to .550” for feed housing then tap with Bock large tap (for 6mm nib/feed) [/FONT]


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## mredburn

I would add that Indy Pen Dance also carries the triple lead tap sets as well. We work together in that. But I stress to new custom kitless pen makers, buy the m12 x .75 single thread tap and die set from Victornet.com first. Practice with that and if you decide you have a use for the triple lead taps then buy a set. The cost Difference is $20.00 for the single lead set versus $130 for the triple lead set minimum.  And If you decide that this venture isnt for you your not out a Hundred dollars on  a single tap set.


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## Dalecamino

Texatdurango said:


> Joe,  As an aid in helping you get started, here is a list of every drill and tap I use to make one particular pen. With this pen you have five pieces to make and the order you make them in isn't really important but just relax, sit back and think about how the pieces fit together and before you know it, you have a mockup of your pen.  Remember.... you are NOT trying to make a functional pen the first few go rounds, just practicing making the parts then seeing how they will fit together.
> 
> As you make the pieces, keep in mind the clip you want to use as it will determine the thread sizes used for the finial and the overall diameter of the pen.
> 
> The pen shown below was made by using these drills, taps and dies and nothing else.  I use a lot of metric drills but if you don't have them, don't worry, just use something similar in size and it might work.  If my counting is accurate, you will use 10 different drill bits, 3 taps and two dies.
> 
> Sources I used for the tools:
> 
> Center drill, general taps and dies - Victor tools  www.victornet.com/index.html
> 
> 14mm multi-start tap and die set - Mike Redburn www.silverpenparts.com/
> 
> For the clips, Bock taps and Bock nibs and feeds I use both Mike Kennedy www.indy-pen-dance.com/ and Roy Robaldo  CLASSIC NIB - FEEDS
> So, here ya go, the tools and basically where they are used.......... HAVE FUN!
> 
> [FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]*Upper Finial*[/FONT]
> [FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]Turn rod to .630” dia then turn a .395” tenon then cut 10mm x 1mm threads with a die
> [/FONT]
> [FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]*Lower Finial –*[/FONT]
> [FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]Turn rod to .520”[/FONT][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif] dia then turn tenon .250” wide x .375” dia to fit snugly into a 9.5mm hole, part off leaving exposed finial .300” long, with a total finial .550” long.[/FONT]
> 
> [FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]*Body – *[/FONT]
> [FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]Turn rod to .5[/FONT][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]75” dia[/FONT][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]at [/FONT][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]least 3.1"long [/FONT]*[FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]then c[/FONT]*[FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]enter drill and square up one edge[/FONT]
> [FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]Drill 9.5mm hole then glue in silver ring and finial [/FONT]
> [FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]Cut 14mm M/S threads with die[/FONT]
> [FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]Drill 6.4mm to 3.00” depth for converter clearance[/FONT]
> [FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]Drill 8mm to 2.4” depth for converter clearance[/FONT]
> [FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]Drill 9mm to .500” depth[/FONT]
> [FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]Tap 10mm x 1mm threads [/FONT]
> 
> [FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]*Cap – *[/FONT]
> [FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]Turn rod to .640” dia at least 2.4” long then center drill and square up one edge[/FONT]
> [FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]Drill 9.7mm to 1.9” depth[/FONT]
> [FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]Drill 1/2” to 1.25” depth[/FONT]
> [FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]Drill 33/64” to 1.0” [/FONT]
> [FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]Tap to cut 14mm M/S threads [/FONT]
> [FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]Flip blank, then square edge and center drill[/FONT]
> [FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]Drill 9mm hole to .5” depth[/FONT]
> [FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]Tap 10mm x 1mm threads [/FONT]
> 
> [FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]*Section for #6 Bock feed *[/FONT]
> [FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]Turn blank to .490” diameter[/FONT]
> [FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]Drill 6.4mm hole 1.3” deep[/FONT]
> [FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]Turn a .210” wide tenon to .390” diameter, thread with 10mm x 1mm die[/FONT]
> [FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]Drill 7.0mm hole to .100” depth for converter lip clearance [/FONT]
> [FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]Part off to 1.185” long then flip around in chuck[/FONT]
> [FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]Drill 7.3mm hole to .820” depth for tapping [/FONT]
> [FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]Drill 8.2mm to .550” for feed housing then tap with Bock large tap (for 6mm nib/feed) [/FONT]


Thanks George! :biggrin:


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## Joe S.

Thank you everyone! It might be a little bit before I have all the parts, but at least now I have some direction!


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## Texatdurango

dalecamino said:


> .......
> Thanks George! :biggrin:



Hey, that wasn't for you, it was for Joe!  Please shred any hard copies you might have already printed out. :wink:

I think you already have my recipe for my smaller pen, this is for one of my larger pens that feels really nice to write with and I seem to be selling more of this size.


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## nava1uni

You can also start making kitless pens using kit parts.  Making pens that use parts, but are different from what they were originally meant to look like.


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## Joe S.

Did a search on home depot's website for acrylic. I didn't see any thing that looked useable. I know it isn't clear, but would hard maple be a good practice material?


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## MartinPens

My understanding is that wood is not a good material for threading.
If I find it, I will post it.... but do a search on "clear acrylic rod" and there is a source mentioned here on the forum.

Sent from my iPad using Forum Runner


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## Andrew_K99

Joe S. said:


> Did a search on home depot's website for acrylic. I didn't see any thing that looked useable. I know it isn't clear, but would hard maple be a good practice material?


I did a quick search and found these guys in your city. I'd give them a call and get a 3/4" dia. x 4' rod.

Welcome To EDS PLASTIC CO.

Their website isn't good but they're located at 10630 N. Rushton Rd. South Lyon

AK


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## Gilrock

Use the plastic rods that go by the name of "Delrin" or "Acetal".  I like buying them from Enco because they make it to my house within 1 to 2 days of the order.  Here's a link to a 5/8" rod...back up to the catalog to select a different length and diameter.

Enco - Guaranteed Lowest Prices on Machinery, Tools and Shop Supplies


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## RickLong

thx you for the posts..


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## MartinPens

I found this site for delrin rods. It's fairly local for me and the prices seemed decent.
I do have to pay tax since I'm in the same state. The only down side for me is the fact that they don't use Paypal as a checkout option. Credit card only. 

www.eplastics.com


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## glycerine

Dang, George, you always go above and beyond!

Joe, I get my clear rod from here: www.usplastic.com
I usually get my nibs/feeds from Classic Nib because I like Bock.  (But I have also gotten a few directly from Bock by simply asking for them!)


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## Texatdurango

glycerine said:


> Dang, George, you always go above and beyond!
> 
> Joe, I get my clear rod from here: www.usplastic.com
> I usually get my nibs/feeds from Classic Nib because I like Bock.  (But I have also gotten a few directly from Bock by simply asking for them!)


Well Jeremy I got to thinking (and that's usually dangerous :wink............

It seems like there are a lot of members looking into making their own custom pens but don't know where to start.  Whenever these members post asking for a little help, the usual replies are very generic and broad in nature or just referring them to the library, youtube to watch a video or a few links where pen making is being discussed.

That's all well and good but I think more times than not, the user is just swamped with information overload and honestly, some of the links aren't all that useful and just add to the confusion, but maybe that's better than nothing at all.

This is why I posted what I did.  If Joe or anyone wants to make a pen they can gather around the drills, taps and dies I mentioned and a little thinking about how and where to use the drills and what to thread, they will be producing a pen from scratch similar to the one shown after a little practice.  I believe that once they make their first pen they will have an idea of what it takes to make others, either smaller, longer, wider, etc.  I look at this as a simple head start primer.


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## airborne_r6

Texatdurango said:


> ...That's all well and good but I think more times than not, the user is just swamped with information overload and honestly, some of the links aren't all that useful and just add to the confusion, but maybe that's better than nothing at all...



You know, the funny thing is I don't think there is enough information, and there definitely is not an organized source.  I have been looking at it for a couple months now and have watched, I think, all the videos and read all the tutorials at least once and several times in many of the cases, but there is still some things that are in your step-by-step above that I have not been able to pick up on.  

So, thank you very much.


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## Jgrden

airborne_r6 said:


> Texatdurango said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...That's all well and good but I think more times than not, the user is just swamped with information overload and honestly, some of the links aren't all that useful and just add to the confusion, but maybe that's better than nothing at all...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You know, the funny thing is I don't think there is enough information, and there definitely is not an organized source.  I have been looking at it for a couple months now and have watched, I think, all the videos and read all the tutorials at least once and several times in many of the cases, but there is still some things that are in your step-by-step above that I have not been able to pick up on.
> 
> So, thank you very much.
Click to expand...


You are right. Need specs. for each style pen. The guy that put together the specs. for all bushings would be the ideal candidate. 

John


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## Texatdurango

airborne_r6 said:


> Texatdurango said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...That's all well and good but I think more times than not, the user is just swamped with information overload and honestly, some of the links aren't all that useful and just add to the confusion, but maybe that's better than nothing at all...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You know, the funny thing is I don't think there is enough information, and there definitely is not an organized source.  I have been looking at it for a couple months now and have watched, I think, all the videos and read all the tutorials at least once and several times in many of the cases, but there is still some things that are in your step-by-step above that I have not been able to pick up on.
> 
> So, thank you very much.
Click to expand...

Wayne,

I have a suspicion that some members are looking for or sitting back waiting for someone to post....

1. take a 6.4mm bit and drill a hole 3.1" deep in the lower body for the converter clearance.

2. take a 8mm drill and drill the lower body 2.35" for the converter body clearance

3. take a 9mm drill and drill a hole for the 10mm x 1mm threads which will......

And I just don't think that's going to happen.  Even the tutorials are deliberately left vague to spur the imagination of the readers.

My post above is not intended to be a step by step set of instructions, it is simply a list of particular drill bits, taps and dies used to make the pen in the photo.

I'm thinking if one were to look at the photo then look at the list which has the tools used on each part of the pen they could probably figure out how to make that part where it will line up with the other parts.

As an example, the [FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]*Upper Finial*[/FONT] says....
[FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]"Turn rod to .630” dia then turn a .395” tenon then cut 10mm x 1mm threads with a die[/FONT]"

With that information, one would chuck up a blank, turn it down to .630" Dia then turn a tenon to .395" dia then run the die up to the tenon and cut the male threads which will eventually thread into the top of the pen cap.  I'm leaving little things like tenon length, finial length of the finial and parting off the finished finial to the imagination of the pen maker, after all, they have to have some fun with this just like I did when I started doing these.

I may be wrong but I think several members are willing to help out, just not hand out step by step worksheets to things they themselves spent months figuring out with a lot of trial and error.


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## Texatdurango

Jgrden said:


> .......
> 
> You are right. Need specs. for each style pen. The guy that put together the specs. for all bushings would be the ideal candidate.
> 
> John



John, why not make a few pens yourself, keep some detailed notes then when you finish, we can compare notes to see how close our specs are. :wink:

I've got some scale Auto-cad drawings complete with parts lists and illustrated assembly steps for sale if interested.  Just kidding, that would take all the fun out of it!


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## Dalecamino

George, I went ahead and shredded those hard copies as you suggested.:biggrin:


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## MartinPens

*Half the fun is figuring it out!*

George, I think some day someone will spell it all out in fine detail with step by step instructions and photos... don't know when and spelling it out can be fun.
But as I dive in with all the info and work out all the little things I am finding that I am having FUN! I like figuring things out. I have been working on making a functional section with a #5 Bock feed and so far I have just cracked and snapped some clear acrylic rod. But in the process I'm learning something new and today I got some pretty darn good looking threads and a few nice fitting parts!!  

I would encourage those waiting for it to be spelled out to collect what info you can. Read and reread the threads and tutorials - watch and rewatch the videos and dive in.

The confusing part is the variety!  One tutorial is for a particular pen - another is for a different pen - one video has details for a #5 Bock feed and another has info with metric bits instead of lettered bits or fraction bits. Yikes!  It's very daunting!

Hang in there.  One thing I found helpful was the conversion chart which is here. This chart really did it for me. It helped me understand the correlation between all the different info people were throwing out.

Since I am so visual, I was really helped by the Youtube video that is out. I gave it a try and have had to make adjustments and figure out the little fine tuning things. Thanks George, for your help and the information. I'm still trying to wrap my brain around it - but it's coming slowly and I'm going to stick with it - because that's where half the fun is!

Martin


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## mredburn

Part of the problem is that people are over thinking some of it, a lot of it in fact. The best way is to just try and make a piece of it and if you fail you have learned something. Along the way you will go "AH HAH" thats what that meant.


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## Jim Burr

I'm with Martin. We have been swaping notes, ideas, and collecting stuff. But!!!...I really think pen making is a long process; I look at the pens I made 3 months ago and think "That really sucks!" I about fell out dead seeing some I'd made 3 years ago!! All the learning and experience leads up to kitless, but...and it's just my opinion...if you're just making slims, a bit more experience could be useful! 
I can assure you though...Martin and I will be having a ton of fun!


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## Andrew_K99

I am in the process of making my first kitless pen, it is not complete yet, but I am working through all the bugs. The point of kitless IMO is making a pen that is DIFFERENT than others are making. George laid out enough information to make an almost idential pen to his, and I'll admit it's tempting to make it, but I won't, that's not why I started with kitless. I want to make MY pens that may be slightly bigger/smaller, shorter/longer, use different nib/feed or use a different filling system.

For those wanting to go 'kitless' spend the time to sketch out a few pens that you want to make. Order a nib/feed and a piston convertor and start measuring them, those 2 simple pieces make up the business end of the pen (you could actually write with just that), you just have to make a holder for them. The basic tap/die sizes have been repeated ad nauseum you will never get the answers to build YOUR pen.

IMO kitless is NOT for everyone and it's not a cheap thing to experiment with. That's not saying it is hard, it just a LOT different than making a kit pen. You are 100% in control of the outcome, there are no instructions, some people just don't work well like this and will never complete a pen.

FWIW I have currenly made:
- 2 bodies, 1 that was not long enough to hold a convertor and 1 that is quite good IMO
- 2 1/2 caps, none good, the first the threads were messed up, the second (the half) was a test and corrected the thread issue but was too short and the last was going well but was over turned at the body/cap connection and the finial threads were stripped due to the mandrel I made to hold it (the finial was actually pushed out!).
- 2 sections, neither are shaped/finished, 1 that is very tight (even though I used the same drill bits) and doesn't quite fit the feed, the other works but isn't great IMO.

I'm having a lot of fun though. The research and design aspects of kitless is right up alley!

AK


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## dbledsoe

I have made three kitless/custom pens, but I have re-made each of them several times. The final product is hard to visualize in the beginning and my dimensions are usually wrong and have to be re-done. I'm making them because I want to, and because I want to use them. Someday I may make one good enough to show off, but it has not happened yet. Every time I re-make a part of one I learn some more about what works and what doesn't, and that's what I am looking for at this time. The biggest lesson I have learned so far is that the triple start threads will make a huge difference in the using experience. I really need to get better in a hurry because my PITH pen has to be done relatively soon. Hope I don't have to re-do it more than three or four times.


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## airborne_r6

Texatdurango said:


> airborne_r6 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Texatdurango said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...That's all well and good but I think more times than not, the user is just swamped with information overload and honestly, some of the links aren't all that useful and just add to the confusion, but maybe that's better than nothing at all...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You know, the funny thing is I don't think there is enough information, and there definitely is not an organized source.  I have been looking at it for a couple months now and have watched, I think, all the videos and read all the tutorials at least once and several times in many of the cases, but there is still some things that are in your step-by-step above that I have not been able to pick up on.
> 
> So, thank you very much.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Wayne,
> 
> I have a suspicion that some members are looking for or sitting back waiting for someone to post....
> 
> 1. take a 6.4mm bit and drill a hole 3.1" deep in the lower body for the converter clearance.
> 
> 2. take a 8mm drill and drill the lower body 2.35" for the converter body clearance
> 
> 3. take a 9mm drill and drill a hole for the 10mm x 1mm threads which will......
> 
> And I just don't think that's going to happen.  Even the tutorials are deliberately left vague to spur the imagination of the readers.
> 
> My post above is not intended to be a step by step set of instructions, it is simply a list of particular drill bits, taps and dies used to make the pen in the photo.
> 
> I'm thinking if one were to look at the photo then look at the list which has the tools used on each part of the pen they could probably figure out how to make that part where it will line up with the other parts.
> 
> As an example, the [FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]*Upper Finial*[/FONT] says....
> [FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]"Turn rod to .630” dia then turn a .395” tenon then cut 10mm x 1mm threads with a die[/FONT]"
> 
> With that information, one would chuck up a blank, turn it down to .630" Dia then turn a tenon to .395" dia then run the die up to the tenon and cut the male threads which will eventually thread into the top of the pen cap.  I'm leaving little things like tenon length, finial length of the finial and parting off the finished finial to the imagination of the pen maker, after all, they have to have some fun with this just like I did when I started doing these.
> 
> I may be wrong but I think several members are willing to help out, just not hand out step by step worksheets to things they themselves spent months figuring out with a lot of trial and error.
Click to expand...


Oh I totally agree with you and I think I should clarify what I meant.  Your list showed me that the were several other places in making the pen that I needed to account for. For instance, you have more than twice as many drill bits listed as I have worked out that I needed.  I have spent enough time doing the research that I can see exactly where they are used, I just hadn't realized that I needed them.  Your list is nice because it will hopefully keep me from getting half way through a section and going, "Crap, I need another drill bit!", and not because I am going to use your list, but because I realize I need to do more research, there are still a few things I haven't figured out. Outside of that your list is almost worthless to me as I am planning on starting with a #5 nib and feed. :biggrin:  

I definitely understand why there is not more specific information about making kitless pens.  There are too many people who are only interested in copy someone else's hard work and for that matter their identity as a penmaker.

I would never want a step by step here is how you do it, and I hope that others embarking on the process do not either.  That is what kit pens are for.  I feel that the making of kitless pens is not necessarily about becoming a more advanced pen turner.  I have seen kit pens that are so far advanced in their skill level that I will most likely never attempt them.  I think making kitless pens is about developing your own identity as a pen maker, and that is not to say that it is the only way to do it. There are many penmakers who have created a very distinctive identity using kit pens; the makers of the polymer blanks come to mind.

For me, I like classic things and tradition.  I have my office decorated in an Americana theme.  I shave with a badger hair brush and a double edge safety razor.  When it comes to pens I love the old ebonite fountain pens, and that is what I want to make. However, I don't want someone to tell me how to do it. I want to make pens that are mine, that I developed and that speak to me.

As I work towards developing my own identity as a penmaker I appreciate all the help that people have given, through tutorials and here on the forum.


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## azamiryou

I think there is room for projects with specific step-by-step instructions and tools and material lists. Someone learning new skills may not be ready to design their own project. Outside of penmaking, woodworking is rife with project plans. Someone may want plans for, say, a desk for several reasons. They may be less creative or design-minded, and just want to make something nice without a lot of thought. They may use it as an opportunity to learn how a typical desk is built, or to work on their furniture-making skills without having to go through a long design process first. With no desk-building experience, designing a desk is quite a challenge! Not everyone wants to meet that challenge before they can build a desk. The plan is also valuable as a starting point you can modify for your own purposes.

In a similar way, if you take a woodworking class, you and all the students will most likely build the same project - not one of your own design.

This extends to other crafts as well. Check any jewelers' magazine and you'll find specific projects and plans, often in great detail. Someone could use these instructions to duplicate the original piece, or use the techniques and ideas from it in their own designs.

So why not plans and instructions for making a particular pen? I'm not saying these plans should necessarily be given away free, but I do wonder at the fact they don't seem to exist at all.


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## BSea

mredburn said:


> Part of the problem is that people are over thinking some of it, a lot of it in fact. The best way is to just try and make a piece of it and if you fail you have learned something. Along the way you will go "AH HAH" thats what that meant.


[FONT=&quot]I agree. There is way too much "thought" going into a kitless pen.  Just try to make something & learn what works, and what doesn't.  There is more than enough information to get started, so just go for it.  What's the worst that could happen?  Part of the learning is reading, but most of it hands.  If someone wants to make a kitless/custom pen, I'd tell them go to your shop & learn there.  

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]


dbledsoe said:


> I have made three kitless/custom pens, but I have re-made each of them several times. The final product is hard to visualize in the beginning and my dimensions are usually wrong and have to be re-done. I'm making them because I want to, and because I want to use them. Someday I may make one good enough to show off, but it has not happened yet. Every time I re-make a part of one I learn some more about what works and what doesn't, and that's what I am looking for at this time. The biggest lesson I have learned so far is that the triple start threads will make a huge difference in the using experience. I really need to get better in a hurry because my PITH pen has to be done relatively soon. Hope I don't have to re-do it more than three or four times.


I've made 4, and each one had a piece or two (or 3) redone.  But I'm proud to show each one, although they each have their faults. Even though I had a clear plan when I started, I had to adjust along the way because I either didn't have the right tool, or because I didn't have enough information when I started.  But I learned more from doing these 4 pens than all the kit pens combined. Enen though each pen has taken much more time to make, I have more fun making them.  I hate doing production pen making.  This is so much more fun. 
[/FONT]



Texatdurango said:


> I may be wrong but I think several members are willing to help out, just not hand out step by step worksheets to things they themselves spent months figuring out with a lot of trial and error.


 True, if someone asked me what diameter hole I use for the cap, then that's an easy answer (even though there is more than 1 answer).  But when someone asks "What do I need to go kitless?", there are 50 answers.  Just ask 50 people.:bulgy-eyes:  
[FONT=&quot]
 [/FONT]


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## mredburn

Maybe we do need a beginners introduction to kitless pens.  A "kitless kit" with instructions and all the stuff they will need to complete it, feed assembly, Nib, drill bits. taps and dies. Along with a list of other tools and materials  they will need to complete the project. You usually buy plans for soemthing you have never attempted or made before and dont want to reinvent the wheel.  But unlike chairs or tables or complex shapes the parts of a pen are pretty simple, most of them are round.  Plus if your trying to make kitless pens your probably not a rank beginner that has never made a pen.


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## Gilrock

I think we need a committee to decide the exact steps someone must take to undergo the kitless journey so we can guarantee they will experience the same amount of pain and suffering as pen makers before them.  We need to prevent stiffling their creativity by letting them know any more than a vague description of how to get started.  It must involve hours upon hours of searching the forums and library articles and waiting days for new tools as their need is discovered.  They must follow the path we want them to take...


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## mredburn

? followed by seppuku if they fail?


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## MartinPens

They must survive "The Pit of Despair" and have one year of life sucked out of them by "The Machine." (reference to 'The Princess Bride). Ok, maybe that's a bit much. : )

Sent from my iPad using Forum Runner


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## Joe S.

SCORE!!! My grandpa had this set of tap/dies he never uses anymore. Now all I need is the acrylic rod and a way to hold the dies on the lathe.


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## Dalecamino

Joe S. said:


> SCORE!!! My grandpa had this set of tap/dies he never uses anymore. Now all I need is the acrylic rod and a way to hold the dies on the lathe.


Right on Joe! Just need a die holder and tap guide. I would bet one of our members has them and NOT using them.:wink:


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## Joe S.

dalecamino said:


> Joe S. said:
> 
> 
> 
> SCORE!!! My grandpa had this set of tap/dies he never uses anymore. Now all I need is the acrylic rod and a way to hold the dies on the lathe.
> 
> 
> 
> Right on Joe! Just need a die holder and tap guide. I would bet one of our members has them and NOT using them.:wink:
Click to expand...


Tap guide...? Won't a drill chuck work?


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## Dalecamino

Joe S. said:


> dalecamino said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Joe S. said:
> 
> 
> 
> SCORE!!! My grandpa had this set of tap/dies he never uses anymore. Now all I need is the acrylic rod and a way to hold the dies on the lathe.
> 
> 
> 
> Right on Joe! Just need a die holder and tap guide. I would bet one of our members has them and NOT using them.:wink:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Tap guide...? Won't a drill chuck work?
Click to expand...

Yes, it will work. Although I've never tried tapping that way myself. I've read that others have done it this way. But, for the money I chose the guide. It was worth it to me.


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## azamiryou

Joe S. said:


> Tap guide...? Won't a drill chuck work?



The tap has to advance into the work as it cuts, following the threads. You _can_ do this with a drill chuck, leaving the tailstock loose and applying some pressure as you turn the tap, so the tailstock moves in. Then when you back up the die (which you need to do a lot to break the chips), you have to get the tailstock to slide back, too. You can't really use the tailstock wheel... the tap has to advance/retreat at its own rate.

A tap guide is spring-loaded so the tap can advance/retreat at its own rate. Also, they are pretty cheap. You're looking for something along these lines: Tap Guide - LittleMachineShop.com You can get one to fit a taper or with a straight shank for use with a chuck.


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## BRobbins629

I use a drill chuck for taps with the tail stock loose all the time. Works for me.

A good project that goes hand in hand with kitless is to make a die holder.


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## Robert111

*Gentlemen! Gentlemen!*

Why are you sitting there talking about this? It's not that difficult. 

Tortoise (new IAP member) retired from teaching English this past June. She's always liked pens. She decided she wanted to make them herself and last August 30 she took delivery of a Jet mini.

She learned to operate it and use the carbide pen making tool. Now she has made three tubeless fountain pens, and she is getting pretty good. She is going to make to wonderful pens. 

Meanwhile, you'll still be talking about it.


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## Joe S.

Robert111 said:


> Why are you sitting there talking about this? It's not that difficult.
> 
> Tortoise (new IAP member) retired from teaching English this past June. She's always liked pens. She decided she wanted to make them herself and last August 30 she took delivery of a Jet mini.
> 
> She learned to operate it and use the carbide pen making tool. Now she has made three tubeless fountain pens, and she is getting pretty good. She is going to make to wonderful pens.
> 
> Meanwhile, you'll still be talking about it.



1: I don't have everything I need yet, and need help getting the right stuff.

2: I don't have the slightest idea on how to use the tools I'm getting.
(but I'll figure it out soon enough.)

3: I'm having fun with other turning and other pen projects!


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## Joe S.

No acrylic rod yet, but I had a leftover bit of corian to try a die on. Worked nice but I think the threads would look a little better with a bit of mineral oil on them. Next step is using a tap to make something to screw onto it. 
PS: hard maple didn't work too well... I might try again when I have more experience.


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## Dalecamino

Some of us use cooking oil when cutting threads. I use Pam. Good start.:wink:


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## dogcatcher

I already had both SAE and metric tap and die sets in my shop because of other things I work on.  I took the "guts" of what I wanted to use and then played with it until it all fit together to make a pen.  

I use the same method when I am trying to create a tool for my other businesses to save time, I fly "solo" using trial and error.  If and when it comes together it is a great feeling.  Some times an idea just won't float a boat, then I made scrap, but during the process I will learn what works and what doesn't.  With trial and error, a tradesman and artist will improve their skills.  If they have complete guidance you may never really figure out how it all works.  Penmaking would almost be like being a factory worker.  Dive in head first and find the answer, or find out there is no answer.


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## Joe S.

Played around again a little earlier, tapping is pretty easy for me, but getting the right size tennon for a die is still a challenge. The mineral oil made the first piece look better.


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## Texatdurango

Joe S. said:


> Played around again a little earlier, tapping is pretty easy for me, but *getting the right size tennon for a die* is still a challenge. The mineral oil made the first piece look better.


Take a few moments and scroll back through past threads in the advanced pen making forum.  There are lots of threads about sizing tenons for dies and hole sizes for taps.  Probably every size used on pens has been mentioned over the past few years.  That forum is a good source of information.


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## Tortoise

Joe S. said:


> Played around again a little earlier, tapping is pretty easy for me, but getting the right size tennon for a die is still a challenge. The mineral oil made the first piece look better.



Joe, here's a formula another member gave me:

Tenon size for threading with the die is always about .2mm subtracted from the nominal die size. 

Example -- For a 14 x 1 die, the tenon should be 13.8


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## glycerine

Joe S. said:


> SCORE!!! My grandpa had this set of tap/dies he never uses anymore. Now all I need is the acrylic rod and a way to hold the dies on the lathe.


 
I made my own holder by cannibalizing a cheap "handheld" die holer.  I cut off the wings, drill an appropriate sixed hole into a piece of wood.  Drill a smaller hole all the way through that piece of wood so that it could slide back and forth and spin on a piece of steel rod (which is held in place with a jacobs chuck in the tail stock).
The holder can be seen here: http://www.penturners.org/forum/f56/im-tired-justin-88552/


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## Joe S.

Thanks! So far I've been destroying acrylic, but learning all the way!


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## MartinPens

The acrylic rod is a catch 22. It's good and cheap to learn on, but it's so easy to crack when putting that last little snug turn on the die. I'm learning the limits. I've used the ebonite twice. Great stuff to work with. I also have black delrin, but don't plan to use it for anything but mandrels. I'm going to have to spend a couple more bucks on a couple specific metric drill bits. I'm having fun and I hope to be posting my first custom kitless soon.

Sent from my iPad using Forum Runner


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## Joe S.

MartinPens said:


> The acrylic rod is a catch 22. It's good and cheap to learn on, but it's so easy to crack when putting that last little snug turn on the die. I'm learning the limits. I've used the ebonite twice. Great stuff to work with. I also have black delrin, but don't plan to use it for anything but mandrels. I'm going to have to spend a couple more bucks on a couple specific metric drill bits. I'm having fun and I hope to be posting my first custom kitless soon.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Forum Runner



That's like saying "please pre-pay in advance." :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

I hope to make somthing writable soon, I might break down and use an atrax section for the first one. Just gotta keep trying!


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## Jim Burr

Got all my taps and dies in the mail yesterday:biggrin:!! But I'm working way out of town until Sunday:mad-tongue:. I have a Snap-on (bluepoint) Tap and Die set, but it's all standard...everyone is using metric...going to have a lash with some standard sizes except the nib/section...buying those for now! Any legit reason fractional sizes won't work?


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## Andrew_K99

Jim Burr said:


> Got all my taps and dies in the mail yesterday:biggrin:!! But I'm working way out of town until Sunday:mad-tongue:. I have a Snap-on (bluepoint) Tap and Die set, but it's all standard...everyone is using metric...going to have a lash with some standard sizes except the nib/section...buying those for now! Any legit reason fractional sizes won't work?


The main reason 'standard' sets won't work is they are too coarse for some of the threading.

For metric, 0.75mm pitch (distance from thread to thread) is commonly used; this works out to ±34 TPI (teeth per inch, the way standard threads are measured).

For the cap/body connection 1/2" (12.7mm) would be the closest match to the commonly used 12mm. 1/2" fine threads are 20 TPI or 42% coarser than what is commonly used. This isn't saying that won't work, but it may 
cause issues.

AK


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## Jim Burr

Andrew_K99 said:


> Jim Burr said:
> 
> 
> 
> Got all my taps and dies in the mail yesterday:biggrin:!! But I'm working way out of town until Sunday:mad-tongue:. I have a Snap-on (bluepoint) Tap and Die set, but it's all standard...everyone is using metric...going to have a lash with some standard sizes except the nib/section...buying those for now! Any legit reason fractional sizes won't work?
> 
> 
> 
> The main reason 'standard' sets won't work is they are too coarse for some of the threading.
> 
> For metric, 0.75mm pitch (distance from thread to thread) is commonly used; this works out to ±34 TPI (teeth per inch, the way standard threads are measured).
> 
> For the cap/body connection 1/2" (12.7mm) would be the closest match to the commonly used 12mm. 1/2" fine threads are 20 TPI or 42% coarser than what is commonly used. This isn't saying that won't work, but it may
> cause issues.
> 
> AK
Click to expand...

 
Thanks Andrew...I was wondering why always metric, that sums it up. My order from Victor is in and I ordered my sections and nibs today. Monday I start making a kitless...don't get home until then. Have tons of acrylic and PR rods. 
To change it up a bit...other than ebony, what woods are good for kitless...rosewood family I'd guess. Does stabilized wood matter?


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## Joe S.

Andrew_K99 said:


> Jim Burr said:
> 
> 
> 
> Got all my taps and dies in the mail yesterday:biggrin:!! But I'm working way out of town until Sunday:mad-tongue:. I have a Snap-on (bluepoint) Tap and Die set, but it's all standard...everyone is using metric...going to have a lash with some standard sizes except the nib/section...buying those for now! Any legit reason fractional sizes won't work?
> 
> 
> 
> The main reason 'standard' sets won't work is they are too coarse for some of the threading.
> 
> For metric, 0.75mm pitch (distance from thread to thread) is commonly used; this works out to ±34 TPI (teeth per inch, the way standard threads are measured).
> 
> For the cap/body connection 1/2" (12.7mm) would be the closest match to the commonly used 12mm. 1/2" fine threads are 20 TPI or 42% coarser than what is commonly used. This isn't saying that won't work, but it may
> cause issues.
> 
> AK
Click to expand...


THANK YOU!!! This might help some of the issues I'm having!


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## BSea

Jim Burr said:


> Got all my taps and dies in the mail yesterday:biggrin:!! But I'm working way out of town until Sunday:mad-tongue:. I have a Snap-on (bluepoint) Tap and Die set, but it's all standard...everyone is using metric...going to have a lash with some standard sizes except the nib/section...buying those for now! Any legit reason fractional sizes won't work?


You can get SAE tap & dies with finer threads.  Look at Victor  machinery.  They have 1/2" taps with as many as 80 TPI.  Not that I  would recommend that.  Granted, these aren't going to be found in a  "SET", but you have the same problem with a metric set.  Most of the  threads are too coarse.  

It's much better to buy the individual  taps & dies rather than to buy a set.  I bought a metric set at HF  just to get started.  I use 1 tap out of the entire set.  All the rest  of my taps & dies I bought individually.


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## Gilrock

Actually I've used my set that has 6-32, 10-32, and 1/4-20 taps all the time for my kitless pen making.  Those are the sizes I use for all the set screws in the tap and die holders I've made.


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## rogerwaskow

Hi

Could one get all the sizes in metric as we here in nAussie don't use the inch system.

Many thanks


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## mredburn

m12 x.75
m14 x1
m10 x.75
m9 x.75
m8 x.75
m7 x.75
These in single threads will allow you to build pens with the exception of the feed assembly taps which are dedicated sizes to the manufacturer of the feed. Miester Nib or Jowo and Bock are different thread pitches and so different taps.   A m10 x 1 will work with some of the kit feed assemblies front sections.


----------

