# Where is innovation?



## ed4copies (Nov 5, 2010)

As Jeff is attempting to write TOS that will allow for peace and tranquility on the ol IAP, I'd like to introduce this topic for conversation:

How do we encourage innovation on IAP?

Years ago, new ideas were posted regularly.  I believe the small IAP community had a few guys who were competitive with each other (RonMc and Eagle come to mind) and the process drove each to the next higher level of complexity in laminated blanks.

Neither wanted to COPY the other, they both wanted to OUTDO the other.  (For those who don't know, this got rather unfriendly, but I met them both and they were both gracious to me!!)

As they competed, newer, more complex patterns emerged.  The "art" of pen-making was advanced for the whole forum.

Since then, when a new pen design is presented, the clamor is NOT to try to "one-up", but to demand a tutorial and copy.  Typically, innovators are not writers and a tutorial is the furthest thing from their intention.  So, they stop presenting new ideas.

Anyone got a constructive idea on how to write the IAP rules to ENCOURAGE innovation and the competition that once made the IAP a "daily read" or you'd miss something???

Thanks!


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## Gary Max (Nov 5, 2010)

Heck every time I log on all I see new is a Super Sellers talking about the newest products they have for sale. Of course they want you to leave IAP and go to thier web site and place a order. This is not directed at any one person or business.
I don't understand how this is good for the site.


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## Smitty37 (Nov 5, 2010)

*Tough question*



ed4copies said:


> As Jeff is attempting to write TOS that will allow for peace and tranquility on the ol IAP, I'd like to introduce this topic for conversation:
> 
> How do we encourage innovation on IAP?
> 
> ...


 
This is a tough question Ed....One basic problem is that so much has been done already by the likes of the fellows you mention above and others.  There are some limits to what can be done with a pen barrel.  When the site first opened I think few of them had been done, now there are countless things that have been introduced into the barrels.
 
Here is an idea, whether it is constructive or not remains to be seen.  Perhaps a new forum for the purpose of introducing new ideas, it could cover "pen making" or it could be aimed at just the final product.  It would gather into one place things we try that work for us and we think they are worthy of sharing.


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## alphageek (Nov 5, 2010)

Smitty37 said:


> This is a tough question Ed....One basic problem is that so much has been done already by the likes of the fellows you mention above and others.  There are some limits to what can be done with a pen barrel.  When the site first opened I think few of them had been done, now there are countless things that have been introduced into the barrels.
> 
> Here is an idea, whether it is constructive or not remains to be seen.  Perhaps a new forum for the purpose of introducing new ideas, it could cover "pen making" or it could be aimed at just the final product.  It would gather into one place things we try that work for us and we think they are worthy of sharing.



I agree that a tough question and I really hope we come up with some good ideas.

Smitty, as for the 2nd paragraph... I'd love to understand what your proposing?  I don't get it.  I don't understand what would be different than either one of the specialty forums or the generic "penturning" forum that we have now??  Feel free to PM if you don't want to respond here.


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## jttheclockman (Nov 5, 2010)

This has been discussed before and the problem is as mentioned there is just so much one can do with a pen barrel. Some have an advantage because they can work with metals and have the tools to do so and they change the shapes easily. Others like myself look for different things to embedd in a casting and that is how I change my pen looks. We have found some new materials over the years such as stones and casein that is in reach of us price wise. This will probably continue along with items we put under resins. There have been many strides made in this area. Jeff has taken us to a new level with scrolled pen blanks. I think the introduction of the Pen Wizard was a major break through. You don't see much pens shown with the use of this tool though and why is that. I remember when it was first introduced the waiting list was long and it was all the rave.

We are all starving for that new innovation to come along. I am sure it will happen.


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## Padre (Nov 5, 2010)

It is a tough question Ed, but a fantastic one.

I for one see pens on the site and will readily admit that if I see one that really tickles my fancy I will try to do it.  That is what happened with my leather pen.  

However, I made that pen MY way.  I ordered plain vegetable tanned leather from Ebay.  I ordered punches.  I ordered leather dye.

Then I punched, dyed, punched again, glued, compressed, glued again, trimmed and turned.  MY way.  It probably looks just like all the other leather pens out there, but to me it was unique because, as Frank sang "I did it my way."

Another way we can support innovation is to not jump into the COPYRIGHT argument every time someone posts something new, or a version of what someone else has done.  Give credit where credit it due when you do 'copy' someone, but I think that some become rather reluctant to post new ideas for fear of this whole copyright fiasco that keeps coming up.


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## Smitty37 (Nov 5, 2010)

*one forum*



alphageek said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > This is a tough question Ed....One basic problem is that so much has been done already by the likes of the fellows you mention above and others. There are some limits to what can be done with a pen barrel. When the site first opened I think few of them had been done, now there are countless things that have been introduced into the barrels.
> ...


 
I'm just suggesting that new ideas in any one of a half dozen possible places might be getting lost in the smoke and might be more visible if there was one forum where members could keep their eye on what is going on that's new or different.


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## pianomanpj (Nov 5, 2010)

How about something akin to the Nobel prizes? I'll explain myself when you're done laughing... :laugh:

Seriously, though. During the course of a year, if you find what someone has done to be innovative, you can nominate him, her or the team for the "Innovation of the Year Award". Of course, you could not nominate yourself.

Who would be the judges? Well, I have a couple of thoughts there. First, anyone! However, it would require a small, financial contribution like five dollars, or something (more on that later). Personally, I'd be in for five bucks if I could have the opportunity to vote for the best innovation of the year! If that angle isn't feasible, than maybe the Council Members of the Penmakers Guild could select the winner. Of course that wouldn't admit you into the guild, but what a thrill it would be to be selected most innovative by that group!

What's the incentive (read "prizes") for the award winner? Well, if there is cash involved, than half would go to the winner as prize money, and the other half to support the IAP. If the Guild were to be involved, than again, just the distinction of being selected is quite an honor.

Other prizes could include a permanent sticky in the library of the award winner's innovation. Also, a glyph (designed like a medal, or something) that read "Innovator of the Year" next to the winner's avatar so that it would be displayed each time they posted. I'm sure there are other ideas.

Anyways... I'll shut my cake hole and watch to see what shakes out. Please feel free to take ANY or NONE of my ideas and run with them! Just remember Jeff's new TOS when you do!!


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## 1080Wayne (Nov 5, 2010)

Ban tutorials !! As Padre described , some of us prefer to do it our way . That is what drives innovation . The segment of the membership which clamours for tutorials on any new idea doesn`t seem to understand that they too would be more valuable members if they adopted that approach .

Roger`s ideas are well worth considering .


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## ldb2000 (Nov 5, 2010)

1080Wayne said:


> Ban tutorials !! As Padre described , some of us prefer to do it our way . That is what drives innovation . The segment of the membership which clamours for tutorials on any new idea doesn`t seem to understand that they too would be more valuable members if they adopted that approach .
> 
> Roger`s ideas are well worth considering .


 
1+ Flame suit on :beat-up:


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## MatthewZS (Nov 5, 2010)

That is a tough question....but a good one.  The first thing that pops to mind is that some of my best new (to me) discoveries have come trying to copy someone else's design so I don't think you CAN expect to have innovation without imitation.  But this is good, I'm equating innovation to flattery (roughly).  Now I realize however that you're not looking for ideas that are new and whizzbang to me cause just a few weeks ago, TBC was new and whizzbang.  You're looking for new and whizzbang to everyone, to the world at large.  But still........

I like the awards idea come up with some categories, some sort of formalized system, and some sort of reward that's worth it to attain (ie. a badge we can put on our website/blog/whatever, a permanent stickey, something).  Of course in doing this it'd be cool to take into consideration the fact that some of the best innovations in pen making came from knitting, small engine repair and ice sculpture among others so maybe an expansion of the "other things we make" forum somehow..... or a tie in or something.


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## ldb2000 (Nov 5, 2010)

The copy cat fever that has swept over the IAP has been one of the biggest reasons for not posting any innovations here . It's one thing to take an idea or inspiration from someone else's work but don't just copy it , take it in a new direction or to a new level .


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## IPD_Mrs (Nov 5, 2010)

We had a member that when asked how to do something he would respond with, "well show me how you would do it, I might like your way better."  

This all kind of goes back to my idea (for possibly a bash contest).  Have someone do a segment.  Do not show the pen but describe it.  Now have ten or more people try and duplicate what was described.  Have the original designer show show what he described after everyone posts their creation.   I bet you very few will look alike and many new ideas and designs would come from the one contest.


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## BRobbins629 (Nov 5, 2010)

I think if you took a close look you would find more ideas posted here lately rather than less.  Just to mention a few in the post Eagle/Ron days:  Toni's polymer clay, kitless of many varieties, feather blanks, casein, aluminum, steampunk, scorpions, cast silver components, more laser designs - both fill-ins and piece parts, Greeneyedcat's ammo pens, Skippy's bolts, herringbone, decals, stanhopes, circuit boards, worthless wood, etc.  (Sorry if I missed someone's favorite).  I disagree with those that think there is only so much you can to with a few inches.  If that were true in every field, artists, writers, and musicians would have become extinct long ago.


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## OKLAHOMAN (Nov 5, 2010)

Bruce, I agree wholehartedly we've seen new ideas almost weekly, weather it's as amazing as Skip's or Cat's or just a new way to apply a decal.


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## aggromere (Nov 5, 2010)

Yep.  And I think one idea can lead to another.  Don't know if it happened that way or not.  but i saw a lot of post about Toni's PC blanks and then (can't remember who it was though) posted those great pens with golf ball patterns and we all tried to figure out how he skinned a golf ball to make them and lo and behold it was a PC blank he made.  Now that's innovation!  Roy's gator jaw bone pens is another great new idea.  Some of the things I see I can only dream about making.  I was so happy to see a post recently from the greeneyedblack cat.  Remember all the weird stuff he would make?  

As for the tutorials, when I first started turning pens I bought a lathe, some tools, blanks and kits from Rockler (was a store near me)  and a book by barry gross.  All i could do was turn a pen on a mandrel.  Although I'm not anywhere the level of a lot of the members I make a much better pen a completely different way than I started.  Had it not been for the forums and the tutorials I would probably would have lost interest in the hobby or still be making rockler kits on a mandrel (not that there is anything wrong with that, I just like to get as good as I can get at something).  Maybe tutorials could be limited to technics as opposed to how to make a specific pen, but I like them.   That's my two cents worth.

Also, think about the new people.  The value they get from the forums is directly related to how much the experienced turners share.   

That reminds me, what ever happened to Lee in Japan, remember how willing he as to always help the new people.  He was extremely helpful to me when I first joined the IAP.  And actually, for the value I have received their wasn't much of an entrance requirement.  Just a username and password that literally changed my life.  It turned my passing interest in pen making into a permanent hobby, turned my hobby into a business (kinda) and has me having a lot of fun.  I think that is a big payback for a user name and password.  And even though I have never met another member face to face and only talked to a very few on the phone, I feel like I have made some friends. (man I sound crazy)!!!!


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## bitshird (Nov 5, 2010)

I'm right behind butch on the ban tutorials, Granted there have been some brilliant suggestions and articles on machine modifications, how to do simple segmenting, even some complex segmenting and inlay work, and seeing some of the more active minds doing some incredible work is quite a bit of inspiration. Also it would be a nice thing to have some award on the innovation of the year, but should not the award it's self be recompense enough??


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## ldb2000 (Nov 5, 2010)

Before I get the PM hate mails I got the last time I said something like this , I should add that the "Basic tutorials" on turning pens are not what I'm talking about . I am talking about the advanced penmaking techniques like the HB 360 and the more advanced kitless techniques . These are things that are better learned by doing so you gain an understanding of why you are doing what you are doing . A tutorial will show you how to do something but not why you are doing it a certain way . Nothing is really learned by a laundry list , no innovation will ever be made by being told to put flap A into slot B . Innovation is something that can only be created by being creative .


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## Glenn McCullough (Nov 5, 2010)

I have cabinets full of resin savers, silver casting and soldering supplies, snake skins, dyes and stains, pine cones, antler, kit parts, tubes, silver rings as centerbands, etc. All because I saw someone do it and wanted to try it. Most have been tried and I moved on to something else, new. The copiers will still be copying and the innovators will still be creating something new.  If a tutorial is done, let it help those who cant originate the idea themselves. Do not stop encourraging them to try new things, some have broken out and created some fine pens. After 7 years making pens, the new ideas have slowed down, but I still dont have time in the day to try all the possibilities that pop into my brain. Eagerly awaiting retirement to find the time.


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## Jmhoff10500 (Nov 5, 2010)

I Highly Disagree with banning tutorials. 6 days from now marks my one year anniversary on IAP and for those first few months i relied on the tutorials and they are the top reason i am where i am today. If i would have not had the tutorials, i would have not pushed myself and would have fallen into the trap of making one jr gent and thinking thats the best i would do because as a person starting out, i have absolutely no idea how to mount a blanks for a closed end pen, let alone all of the other information in the forum. Also, as some of you have said throughout the forum, for those new members that badger you about how you do stuff, you would now have nowhere to point then and ALL of our ideas/knowledge would have to be transfered through threads or PM's...


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## keithkarl2007 (Nov 5, 2010)

Jmhoff10500 said:


> I Highly Disagree with banning tutorials. 6 days from now marks my one year anniversary on IAP and for those first few months i relied on the tutorials and they are the top reason i am where i am today. If i would have not had the tutorials, i would have not pushed myself and would have fallen into the trap of making one jr gent and thinking thats the best i would do because as a person starting out, i have absolutely no idea how to mount a blanks for a closed end pen, let alone all of the other information in the forum. Also, as some of you have said throughout the forum, for those new members that badger you about how you do stuff, you would now have nowhere to point then and ALL of our ideas/knowledge would have to be transfered through threads or PM's...



Can't you see people are fed up with others taking their ideas and promoting them as their own. Well thats the way they feel. Its just as it was already said we don't give credit where it is due. If i had a really unique idea for a pen I'd have it splashed all over this place to see what others could do with it that I couldn't. Why build up all this great knowledge and not share it. Eagle Lord have mercy on him shared all of his ideas freely and his knowledge lives on today. What a waste it would be not to share the knowledge we have with each other but to take it to the grave instead.


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## ericw95 (Nov 5, 2010)

Charge for advanced tutorials to support IAP.  Also a few months ago a member, (sorry don't recall screen name) ran a turning "challenge" to expand all of our abilities.  I planned to participate but life got in the way.  Anyway, I read the posts with interest and plan to complete the challenge some day.  

Maybe if we had a series of challenges for turners that they could complete and then send to "someone" to evaluate.  Upon successful evaluation, you would earn a designation.


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## keithkarl2007 (Nov 5, 2010)

ericw95 said:


> Charge for advanced tutorials to support IAP.  Also a few months ago a member, (sorry don't recall screen name) ran a turning "challenge" to expand all of our abilities.  I planned to participate but life got in the way.  Anyway, I read the posts with interest and plan to complete the challenge some day.
> 
> Maybe if we had a series of challenges for turners that they could complete and then send to "someone" to evaluate.  Upon successful evaluation, you would earn a designation.



Don't get me wrong but that would seem like the more advanced penturners would benefit more. What happens to the newbies who are just starting out? Would that not discourage them from participating in the forum as a whole? I just feel the forum is kinda focused on the more advanced penturners and we have no time for the little guys. Give them a break we all had to start somewhere. Anytime a newbie posts a photo very few of the well known penturners critique their work.


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## ldb2000 (Nov 5, 2010)

ericw95 said:


> Charge for advanced tutorials to support IAP. Also a few months ago a member, (sorry don't recall screen name) ran a turning "challenge" to expand all of our abilities. I planned to participate but life got in the way. Anyway, I read the posts with interest and plan to complete the challenge some day.
> 
> Maybe if we had a series of challenges for turners that they could complete and then send to "someone" to evaluate. Upon successful evaluation, you would earn a designation.


 
That was me who ran the challenge . I have no problem with sharing the knowledge but I won't just give it away . I willingly help out and give ideas but don't just give a laundry list of how to do something . If someone wants to put some effort into improving their abilities I will help all I can . By doing it this way we all learned some new techniques and improved the way to do things . We learned WHY things are done a certain way , what the advantages were for using certain techniques and all of this learning was done without a tutorial to copy from .


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## Brooks803 (Nov 5, 2010)

BRobbins629 said:


> I think if you took a close look you would find more ideas posted here lately rather than less. Just to mention a few in the post Eagle/Ron days: Toni's polymer clay, kitless of many varieties, feather blanks, casein, aluminum, steampunk, scorpions, cast silver components, more laser designs - both fill-ins and piece parts, Greeneyedcat's ammo pens, Skippy's bolts, herringbone, decals, stanhopes, circuit boards, worthless wood, etc. (Sorry if I missed someone's favorite). I disagree with those that think there is only so much you can to with a few inches. If that were true in every field, artists, writers, and musicians would have become extinct long ago.


 
Don't forget those awesome scrolled pens by our master scroller!:biggrin:


Yes I agree that the copycat fad/fear is spreading like wildfire. I don't think the tutorials should be deleted though. I agree with butch that they should be tools to take the next step instead of a somewhat "turn by numbers" approach to pen making. They do give several people, myself included, the SAFE steps to take when trying out a new technique. I have see all the cool and crazy pens that have been shown here and it only makes me want to surpass that point myself. Whether I'm adding to a method or using their technique to totally make something different, the steps written for us are helpful. It's up to US to use the information for what it is, help. When I started casting resin I took the basic idea/intruction of how it's done and the rest has been my own experiments. I've wasted gallons of resin trying to master the swirling effect or a color shade (and several gallons more to waste trying to get pressure casting down pat:redface. Learning by making mistakes has been the MOST important lesson I'll ever learn and I think that's what creates innovation. I feel everyone has a right to their privacy, whether that's how they did something or where they got something it doesn't matter. If they want to share something they will. That's my 10cents for the night (i've been reading the forum etiquette thread while typing this so i think i get off track easily).


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## ldb2000 (Nov 5, 2010)

keithkarl2007 said:


> ericw95 said:
> 
> 
> > Charge for advanced tutorials to support IAP. Also a few months ago a member, (sorry don't recall screen name) ran a turning "challenge" to expand all of our abilities. I planned to participate but life got in the way. Anyway, I read the posts with interest and plan to complete the challenge some day.
> ...


 
Actually the last challenge brought several new turners and lurkers into the active group of penmakers and they are now participating members who have since given back to the group some of the things they learned .


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## Jmhoff10500 (Nov 5, 2010)

Are we (the banning tutorials issue) talking tutorials as in Library articles, or just concepts that are posting in threads? If it is library article, i think we should not ban them but still leave the option open. If they were to be banned, we would practically ruin the point of a penturning forum that is there for the betterment of the hobby...



keithkarl2007 said:


> Jmhoff10500 said:
> 
> 
> > I Highly Disagree with banning tutorials. 6 days from now marks my one year anniversary on IAP and for those first few months i relied on the tutorials and they are the top reason i am where i am today. If i would have not had the tutorials, i would have not pushed myself and would have fallen into the trap of making one jr gent and thinking thats the best i would do because as a person starting out, i have absolutely no idea how to mount a blanks for a closed end pen, let alone all of the other information in the forum. Also, as some of you have said throughout the forum, for those new members that badger you about how you do stuff, you would now have nowhere to point then and ALL of our ideas/knowledge would have to be transfered through threads or PM's...
> ...


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## Brooks803 (Nov 5, 2010)

[/quote]Actually the last challenge brought several new turners and lurkers into the active group of penmakers and they are now particpating members who have since given back to the group some of the things they learned .[/quote]

I totally agree there and have been anxiously awaiting level 3! I think more people should try to do this maybe in different areas of penmaking. btw, hope your back is doing better Butch!:bye:


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## skiprat (Nov 5, 2010)

I don't think banning tutorials is a good idea. That's like saying get rid of all the libraries and fire all the school teachers. 

I've written one or two tutorials and posted a few 'pictorials' and my style is to leave a bit out that needs a little bit of additional thought by the reader. 

But on the other hand, I really don't like it when someone virtually demands full and comprehensive instructions for something, without even attempting it first. 

Butch's recent threads were utterly fantastic. These weren't designed to show you how to do something but were cleverly created to make you think things out for yourself. Butch, I hope you continue these. They were a lot of fun.:wink:

Of course, I think there are some topics that should never be made into tutorials too. The HB360 was one where I was dead against it being revealed, and that was before I eventually figured it out. 

Contrary to what has been written, Eagle actually never 'freely' shared anything. If you figured something out most of the way, then he would certainly take you by the hand the rest of the way. But he wouldn't do your thinking for you. I miss that man!!


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## keithkarl2007 (Nov 5, 2010)

Jmhoff10500 said:


> Are we (the banning tutorials issue) talking tutorials as in Library articles, or just concepts that are posting in threads? If it is library article, i think we should not ban them but still leave the option open. If they were to be banned, we would practically ruin the point of a penturning forum that is there for the betterment of the hobby...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



1+ Agreed


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## ldb2000 (Nov 5, 2010)

I also agree that "Banning" tutorials is not a good idea but the people who DEMAND a tutorial and then send a nasty PM or email when one is not forthcoming should be at the very least called to task for their actions . Sharing information and techniques has to voluntary or people will stop sharing their knowledge .


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## Displaced Canadian (Nov 5, 2010)

This is an interesting thread. I don't cast, use clay, or own a scroll saw, I just cut up pieces of wood into little pieces of wood and glue them back together. My wife says I'm a quilter . I like the innovator of the year idea. I will copy an idea so I can see how to make it mine and to see what else can do using the same construction technique. Maybe a forum to discuss design ideas?


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## jfoh (Nov 5, 2010)

No one makes you either write or read a tutorial. If you do not want your work copied then do not share information if it is that important to you. I can understand that those who make and sell items for us to use on making pens, like molds, cast blanks. etc... have a right to get annoyed by other who just copy their items and under sell them. But the nature of this site is the exchange of ideas and the natural increasing knowledge base of pen making. You share, read or see and try new things. That is why many come here. 

I would agree that hard work and increases in pen making art and science should be advanced and recognized. Maybe the best tutorial gets a prize. How many free things have you gotten with order from suppliers that ended up being more appreciated than the stuff you paid for? Maybe a few out of the blue gifts or posting a picture of the best of kind tutorial, or best of kind pen, or pen making improvement ideal. Guys it is a hobby for most of us not real work to feed our families.


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## Russianwolf (Nov 5, 2010)

If memory serves there is a calculation for innovation, something like:

From Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory 





> Invention, my dear friends, is 93% perspiration, 6% electricity, 4% evaporation, and 2% butterscotch ripple.



in other words if you aren't working, and failing regularly, you aren't trying to invent/innovate. If you go back and look, half of my pen related posts recently have been reporting that I failed. I failed to accomplish what I was after. But it leads me in a new direction each time. I'll try a different technique, or see something promising and go off on a tangent. You just never know where you'll have your next breakthrough.

I've had long phone discussions with Dawn about ideas that I've had, and we would bounce them around and make suggestions to each other and you never know what will come out of it. I've also had PM discussions with people more knowledgeable than myself in certain areas that I've been playing with just by mentioning offhand a target in a post here. It's happened several times. 

And yes, so far my success rate in still 0%, but soon it'll be 1%. Then maybe 2%. And if I ever get it above Butterscotch Ripple, I'll be happy.


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## robutacion (Nov 5, 2010)

Yes, the "original" question is far from having a easy or simple answer, very much like getting the magic recipe for "pleasing everyone...!) just not possible!
However, there are the right and wrong ways to go about pretty much every thing we do in life, being a active and willing member of this forum, is no different.

One of the first things I was told about IAP even before I joined in, was that, this forum provides a lot more information than any other, people here like to share their knowledge and experiences and they do so freely and willingly.  People here would be direct and truthful with their opinions and comments when asked and that you would find a diverse and always growing number of vendors within the members that will do anything they can to provide you with the best, unique and most economical products they can, pretty much like a self sufficient group...!

What do I thing that is "poisoning" this forum...???

My first thoughts are about the copyrights issues and similar, they have scared and pushed a lot of people away, some forever.

Don't post something if you don't want people to ask questions and "copy" or try to, what you did.  Everyone should accept that from the moment you post something, that will become "public" in all aspects.  If you are in the business of selling pens, having pics taken of your "creations" as soon as they are finished and have them posted in this sort of international public domain, is certainly not a good business decision, wouldn't you agree...!!!

Another thing that could be improved is the fact that while some members get too much recognitions, many others no less successful, helpful and deserving, get none...! In fact, the "cycle" or should I say the natural process of "descend" is that the older members "forum duties" (not aged related) get replaced progressively as newer members climb up to the "ranks".  Ranks is this case are all the normal doings we all do as members, answer questions, explain things, share experiences and coach someone up to the walking stages BUT, don't be so surprised and annoyed if the student gives to his master, a run for his money...!!! that's just life folks...!:wink: 

So the question of *"How do we encourage innovation on IAP?"* as much to do with the way we all handle the issues and points I've made above.  

There has been some very good thoughts/opinions made by other members, here and, I believe, one of the best ways to get the optimal answer to the question is to, listen to what people say and that put it all in a blender to get the true juices...!!!:biggrin:

These are my thoughts, and I stick with them...!

Cheers
George


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## RAdams (Nov 5, 2010)

I believe i mentioned a "inspirator of the year, or Idea of the year" type scenario right after the last birthday bash when it felt like the bash coordinators were trying to make up ways to give away donated prizes. It was quickly shot down. I am sure the thread is archived somewhere, but i am lazy, so i won't be posting a link. I do still think it is a sweet idea. Make it a members only vote, nominees could collect votes, and the winner could get the best gift, or a choice of gifts, or a gift package. It would be a good motivation for alot of people to push the edge more, and post the results.


I have actually talked with several members of IAP that are not "regulars". They may login every day, but rarely post, and never post pictures of their work. I have asked them all the same question after seeing pictures of their work in emails, or website links they gave me personally (Some of wich would rival our top members). They all had the same answer. 

DRAMA

It is inevidable that the idea is not original, and no matter how much props are given to the originator, there are almost always posts in the negative tone. "You stole that idea", or "You are gonna get sued" etc. etc. etc. 

I also think there should be a comprimise for the tutorials and such. They should be allowed, but only by certain members. Following a tutorial by Skiprat, or Butch is just as they described. An explanation of the basic concept and idea. The rest is trial, error, and maybe a push in the right direction through a helpful PM reply. But at the same time, When i PM someone like Butch, or Skip, I try to keep the ettiquite (sp) in mind. First, I do not ask for a tutorial, I don't want to be told how exactly. I want to be inspired to figure it out. A good tutorial is worth its weight in gold is all i am tryin to say. I don't want your fish... But you can show me how to catch my own!


That and $2 will get you a cup of coffee at the local cafe!


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## Phunky_2003 (Nov 5, 2010)

Wouldn't this innovative idea of the year be the same effect as the front page drawing/voting during the birthday bash?

I will give one thought on the tutorials.  For example, If Joe Turner posts a pen design.  Then along comes Peter Remaker.  Peter should have no right to post a tutorial on the design.  I have been here for a little over a year and have seen 2 members quite posting due to that reason.

Theres been enough debate on the pros and cons of tutorials, so I wont comment any further.


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## greenmtnguy (Nov 5, 2010)

Ed,
You asked where is innovation. Innovation is hiding from imitation. I wonder what the cost in man hours and dollars is on some of the novel ideas. I pretty well know on a couple of ideas and the concept is the hard part to come up with. Reverse engineering comes to mind and most software expressly prohibit the practice. It is fairly easy to copy, but difficult to innovate. Unless you soar where Eagles fly and then it takes another Eagle to fly with you.


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## jttheclockman (Nov 6, 2010)

Man I have to say today has been a very active day here trying to keep up with a few of these popular topics and some of them are actually running into each other. 

There is some disturbing things to me being said here though and that has to do with tutorials. There have been numerous tutorials done about similar subjects and case in point is CA finishes and the bullet pen and casting. No one person has jurisdiction over writing a tutorial about a particular pen or design or method. Even though when all said and done both pens look the same. People get to the final results differently and then you make a choice to use what method suits you. I am thankful for the many bullet pen tutorials and discussions here because that is how I learned. I copied yes I copied and those that frown on copying are kidding themselves because they copied in their life time too. When you are a kid growing up you copy the adults and this is how we learn. Yes we may then add our own touches or find a better way that suits us but to say copying is bad is stupid in my opinion. We all copy. Get over it. This site is based on sharing ideas and I have said this time and time again if you do not want your design copied then please stay away from here and don't show it. Keep it to yourself and be proud. 

Tutorials are a great way of teaching. Some people are gifted in that they can convey their thoughts and actions into words that are tutrial worthy. I am not one. But I will try my best to explain something when asked. 

Innovation is not a simple thing. It takes a certain kind of mind to be able to think outside the box. As I said in an earlier post I think there are advances being made and have been made and that new invention is right around the corner. Be positive. Keep tutorials and encourage more.


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## ctubbs (Nov 6, 2010)

The tutorial should inspire inovation.  I prefer to use the information as a starting point toget by a place that I could not see around the corner, grab a running start and go somewhere else.  Unfortionly some find it eaiser to use it as a end all be all.  That will occur anywhere people feel incapable to see their own self worth.  Please do not ban the tutorial.

The inovator of the year is a grand idea.  $5 to vote on the inovation is also a very good and fund raising idea.  My $0.02.  Add about $5 and a cup of coffee can be yours.

Charles


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## Fat Boy (Nov 6, 2010)

immatation is the biggest form of flattery! so you came up with a great new idea, you post it, someone copies it. BIG DEAL! maybe if you all worked together on something you can perfect it and make it better! half the people that have posted on this thread sound like selfish little kids!

I completly understand that you have an original idea and do not want it copied, but if that were the case than we would all be driving the same car from 1924. think about it, someone else built another car that was similar but had better features and eventually it lead to what we have today. think of what kind of pens will be made in 10 years!

i am sure that no one on this forum is the person that invented a pen kit so in a way you are all copying some one anyways.

The whole reason i finally joined this forum after months of lurking is because the willingness to share your work and how to do it. I fell in love with JT's braided wire pens, i tried to make my own and failed a few times, i asked him advice and he was more than willing to help! much like i would be if someone asked me a question that i could answer.

taking down the tutorials would just make this site half as valuable to new members (like myself) that may later on develop a new latest and greatest design. i would not have known how to do a segmented pen without the tutorials section, i am still reading the photography section and am close to getting my pictures down so that i can post some of my work too.

well thats all for my rant, but some people need to take a step back and relax, to 90% of the people on here this is a hobby, so get your panties out of a knot and enjoy it! go make some new pens and be willing to share your knowledge with a great bunch of people!

Chris---aka fat boy


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## IPD_Mrs (Nov 6, 2010)

Re tutorials: remember guys not everyone LEARNS the same way as everyone else either.  No one has a RIGHT to DEMAND a tutorial.  If you are one of the persons who learns best by WATCHING and you see an idea that you really do love and want to try to learn - there may not be a tutorial we (all of us who have ever turned a pen, done an inlay etc etc) have a right to decide NOT to make a tutorial at any given time. We may make time to answer your questions once you have tried this that and the other and gotten to point V and need help the rest of the way (The way Eagle helped many of us along in the processes)  But if you absolutely must have hands on visual education, drive out and visit someone who is willing to provide it - pay for it, take a class or two or three.  There are lots of ways to accomplish these things without hurting IAP, the members or your own reputations.  The tutorials that are needed by the new turners are pretty well established .. if they aren't I would suggest that we all pitch in and provide those as it was well stated by another member that if not for those they might not have even continued in the hobby.


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## LarryDNJR (Nov 6, 2010)

I agree about the fact people need to not demand tutorials.  Asking for them nicely is ok. 

As for copying or imitating another persons idea or work has been over discussed so much.  My thoughts are as such as others have probably mentioned.  Don't want it seen don't show it here.  I myself had looked on this forum and other places for something similar to the "Springtime" pens I've done.  Using actual springs for the body over the brass tubes.  I've done a few of them now it required a little effort, nothing outrageous or genius.  I'm not really worried if someone else wanted to try it.  If they did I would be flattered.

This place is about sharing ideas and helping others as has been mentioned many times before.  I visit this site many times throughout the day for one to enjoy reading what most people have to say, but mainly to learn, grow and become inspired by others.

People are going to get upset, and butt heads etc.  Everyone needs to just sit back and relax and go along for the ride and have fun.  I'm trying to. 

Done rambling, seems somewhat inconsistent at this point.


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## alphageek (Nov 6, 2010)

Guys... Lets please get back to Eds question and off the debate of the value of tutorials. 

I really like the "innovator" award.   Kinda like the home page photo.. Its an honor to be there.   I havn't thought of a better way to innovate, but I agree some variation of this thought could be a really cool one.


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## jttheclockman (Nov 6, 2010)

alphageek said:


> Guys... Lets please get back to Eds question and off the debate of the value of tutorials.
> 
> I really like the "innovator" award. Kinda like the home page photo.. Its an honor to be there. I havn't thought of a better way to innovate, but I agree some variation of this thought could be a really cool one.


 

If you did do something like that would it require a TUTORIAL? Oh that word again.:biggrin:


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## alphageek (Nov 6, 2010)

jttheclockman said:


> alphageek said:
> 
> 
> > Guys... Lets please get back to Eds question and off the debate of the value of tutorials.
> ...



Maybe, maybe not!  No-one ever said a tutorial was necessary for innovation.  Depending on the complexity it may not be needed.   Sometimes innovation is so mind blowing, that just the introduction of the idea inspires more inspirations/innovation.


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## bitshird (Nov 6, 2010)

Gary Max said:


> Heck every time I log on all I see new is a Super Sellers talking about the newest products they have for sale. Of course they want you to leave IAP and go to thier web site and place a order. This is not directed at any one person or business.
> I don't understand how this is good for the site.



Gary, since the IAP has no function for processing payment and certainly doesn't have the bandwidth to allow selling directly on the site the seller has to conduct the sale off site, what's the difference whether they have to send a PM then go to PayPal to pay or they go to the "super sellers" site where they can find some great stuff that they would never see any where else and buy there?? 
The innovation is going to come through the extremely artistic turners NOT THE ONES THAT COPY Someone else's original work and reproduce it in mass, come back to the site and give some ideas, then it's up to us to take it from there, NOT by copying it, but trying to better it this is just my humble not so well informed opinion but it's mine and I like it !!!!!


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## arioux (Nov 6, 2010)

I'm kind of lost on this topic and i'll try to comment as best as my knowledge of the english writing permit in a long post.  

I started turning pens when i stumble on Russ Fairfield site one night, looking for something to when i retire.  Wow, lots of information and the way he explained things was clear and easy (well looks like

Searching further, i found IAP.  Wow, lots of stuff, info and how too.  I was amazed at what Eagle made, Ron, Yoyo spin and all the older ones.  And they where all shearing their knowledge (Yes, Eagle did wrote tutorial, just think about the lite brite pen).  These tutorial pushed me further into pen turning.  But i'm no artist, cretivity is limited (yes, a stroke can limit some of your mental habilities) and i pushed the top of my capacity whith the help of those tutorials.

Then some new idea came along, always pushing the limits and people started to think more about protecting and marketing their idea than sharing.

I see more and more blanks for sale, and it's normal, people whant to make money.

If tutorial, sharing of idea and all this stop, then rename the forum to IAP market place.

For me, it's simple:  You want to share, than do it.  You don't want to than don't , I for one wont blame you, it's your right. But don't blame or try to block those that whant to.  Minus well ban Russ Fairfield, Ed Davidson an all the links to their  sites and videos from the site.!

If you don't want you work to be copied (and i understand that also), then don't post it anywhere on the net, not just here. 

What mix me the most, i when i see all the comment about tutorial and copying work and that many of those person where all agaist the "watch part pen" copyright claim.  Funny

Please stay polite if you want to PM me about my position.

Well that was my two Canadian cents


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## ldb2000 (Nov 6, 2010)

I have come up with one or two innovative ideas over the years and even a few lately but the newest ones were never shown here , because the first few times I was hounded for tutorials and told that my not wanting to give a tutorial was selfish and wrong (using nasty language) so people who made no effort to even try to figure it out could copy what took me many hours to design and build . Heck even the Microadjust saw that I use for making my shell blanks got me several nasty PM's when I wouldn't give step by step directions on it's design . I have always answered questions and given guidance on how to do something when asked for it as long as an effort is made to figure it out first . 
Why even bother to show an innovative design under these conditions and the attitude that has been expressed in this thread of "If you don't want people to copy , don't bother showing your work" I think is appalling and just reinforces my lack of desire not to show things that I come up with . I don't have a problem with someone copying my work but I don't think I should be harassed if I don't want to just give it away .


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## maxwell_smart007 (Nov 6, 2010)

I've noticed something over the years - the truly innovative designs don't get copied and sold in the classifieds....that's because they're too hard to make! 

The second you get a design that's easily replicated, however, you'll see a dozen people jumping on the bandwagon and selling that design in the various classified sections.  How many Skiprat or Greenmountain designs have you seen sold in the classifieds?   Other blanks that just involve putting a different item in clear resin - while really cool and unique - are going to be stolen and sold every time - it's just the nature of commerce and different people's views on what is ethical....

The lesson here - if you're going to innovate, go whole hog!


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## Smitty37 (Nov 6, 2010)

*What's new*

I'm not even sure what innovation is...is taking an idea you see in a tv add and coming up with a tooth brush/pen so you can have both handy whenever you need either innovation? I suppose in a sense it is but then, does the innovater have some great right to that idea such that no one should copy it? Why?  He didn't come up with the idea for either the tooth brush or the pen just the idea of combining them into one item. 


I used that illustration because a lot of what's "new" that I've seen is just something different bedded in resin and once you have the basic idea of bedding something in resin to make a pen blank embedding something different is not terribly innovative even if it is unique.


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## DCBluesman (Nov 6, 2010)

Splitting hairs, I innovate with almost every pen I make. You see, innovation really means to renew something that exists. It is infrequent that I duplicate my process exactly from one pen to the next. My innovations may not be as obvious as some people's, but they are, nonetheless, innovative for me.

As for making pens, I feel I make pretty wood pens. If someone else disagrees, that is their prerogative. Opinions abound. Some add value to my life, some do not.


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## arw01 (Nov 6, 2010)

An excellent thread and one that takes a bit of thinking and introspection.

A recent book just out: Where Good Ideas Come From: The Natural History of Innovation by Steven Johnson



> Innovation, he notes, arises from simple processes, beginning with exploration of “the adjacent possible.” Neither species nor ideas develop from huge leaps. Rather, their evolution consists of exploring adjacent rooms in a mansion whose extent is unknown. Only after a sometimes aimless trip through several doors does life or technology produce an innovation.



Building from another's ideas is the nature of human innovation.  The guild system was employed for centuries to carefully guard and control the skilled crafts.  Some countries, Germany comes to mind, still require apprenticeships and certification before you are allowed to conduct business.

Copyright threating posts should be closed or deleted, the lawyers can debate such things in the manner of commercial exploitation.  The recent FIJI blanks certainly present such a ripe topic for discussion.

There was a post or two in the thread on perhaps charging for the more advanced tutorials.  I think that might be an excellent idea for 1/2 to go the author of the idea and 1/2 to go to IAP for it's upkeep.

Maybe some of the most innovative, the 360hb, could be priced in a higher range.

No matter where you are in life, except maybe in the deep of the wilds, you will always have to deal with or suffer the presence of rude people.  Should they pm you a "demand" reply simply you are being rude.  A master teaching an apprentice may have NEVER taught them specifically how to do certain techniques, but the end product was always freely shared.

Alan


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## 1080Wayne (Nov 6, 2010)

Excellent quote Alan . All of the casting work definitely falls into the `adjacent room` class . Not quite so sure about some of Eagle`s work . 

Will add the book to my Christmas wish list .


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## ed4copies (Nov 6, 2010)

alphageek said:


> Guys... Lets please get back to Eds question and off the debate of the value of tutorials.
> 
> I really like the "innovator" award.   Kinda like the home page photo..  Its an honor to be there.   I havn't thought of a better way to  innovate, but I agree some variation of this thought could be a really  cool one.



Dean (and Curtis and Andrew)
This thread shows that concepts  and policies are inter-related.  Yes. I would like to see innovation  greatly encouraged on the IAP.  When I came here, segmentation was "the  rage".  A couple years later SOMEONE (I have no recollection of who)  started talking about pouring resin.  Look at what has happened now that  everyone can pour their own blanks.

But I know some members  (including me when I was doing shows) don't show EVERYTHING they make.   For ME, the clamor for tutorials had a lot to do with my reluctance.  

Two  subjects merge here---if a thread has to "stay on topic", there will  rarely be humor inserted and some folks have, over the  years, sent me  PMs and emails about how much they enjoy the "little diversions" that  some of my threads (and sometimes other folks') become.  Rigid "stick to  the point" rules will eliminate that.

2  The other  subject--innovation--merges with the DEMAND for tutorials.  We need to  recognize that folks post their pens because they are PROUD of them.   Reinforce that pride a little, congratulate the poster, comment on the  unique features---let him or her bask in some deserved praise.  Several  days in, ask (if you must) how a certain aspect was created---"How did  you thread the inside of that, John-do you mind telling us??"  A simple  question opening the OPTION of tutorial tidbits.  OR, if so inclined  "John" may decide to do a tutorial.  Also try to remember JOHN has a  talent that you probably don't have.  I feel I can make nearly any pen,  but I have little imagination---Dawn has LOTS.  Different people.  But  those who MAKE these innovations, for the most part, enjoy making NEW  things.  Once it is made, it is BEHIND them and they are off to the next  project.  They are THINKERS and TINKERERS, not EDUCATORS or  WRITERS---to them the tutorial is a pain.  So, if we DEMAND they show  the tutorial, their next innovation will not be posted here.  Not  because they wish to keep it secret, but because they wish to move on  and create their NEXT piece, NOT go back and review, step by step how  THIS piece was made.  

AS you may be able to tell, Dawn is  instrumental as a "sounding board" to an innovator or two.  As a result,  I have had the opportunity to talk with them on the phone.  This is how  I have come to the opinion expressed above.  

To conclude; a  "thread" should be seen (I believe) as the "introduction of a topic".   If we were gathered at a table, in a local IAP meeting and that topic  came up, the conversation would cover related thoughts.  It would even  go "off topic" for a while, then return.  That's what I see as the  purpose of a thread---it's a written conversation.


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## alphageek (Nov 6, 2010)

ed4copies said:


> To conclude; a  "thread" should be seen (I believe) as the "introduction of a topic".   If we were gathered at a table, in a local IAP meeting and that topic  came up, the conversation would cover related thoughts.  It would even  go "off topic" for a while, then return.  That's what I see as the  purpose of a thread---it's a written conversation.



Ed,

I'm not in disagreement with that statement.  We understand that threads are living things... The statement that I made there, I would very possibly have made even before being a moderator.

You've talked with me enough to know that I can sometimes go into left field in conversations myself.   However, I will also try and "drag" a conversation back into the original topic at times too.

I was doing the same thing here.  The only reason to look at it from a moderation view is to point a thread in a better direction if it goes south (piling on or too much negativity).  My post was a nudge in that direction, but more because your topic had merit and I was hoping we'd get back on that.   

And it has bumped into other cool directions... I have to say I don't read enough these days, but Alan just put a book on my reading list and hope to get to it right after thanksgiving.


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## ed4copies (Nov 6, 2010)

That author should be paying Alan.

I thought the same thing!!!


So, if Alan WERE the author, this would be an AD and not allowed.  Do you see a problem there???  I do.


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## Padre (Nov 6, 2010)

ctubbs said:


> The tutorial should inspire inovation.  I prefer to use the information as a starting point toget by a place that I could not see around the corner, grab a running start and go somewhere else.  Unfortionly some find it eaiser to use it as a end all be all.  That will occur anywhere people feel incapable to see their own self worth.  Please do not ban the tutorial.
> 
> The inovator of the year is a grand idea.  $5 to vote on the inovation is also a very good and fund raising idea.  My $0.02.  Add about $5 and a cup of coffee can be yours.
> 
> Charles



I agree that the tutorials here aid in innovation, not hinder it.  To learn how to do a CA finish, then take it to the next level is one thing I can think of.

This site is a teaching/learning/social network site.  Let's keep it that way.


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## Padre (Nov 6, 2010)

ed4copies said:


> SNIP
> 
> If we were gathered at a table, in a local IAP meeting and that topic  came up, the conversation would cover related thoughts.  It would even  go "off topic" for a while, then return.  That's what I see as the  purpose of a thread---_*it's a written conversation.*_



Absolutely correct.  Well said.


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## bruce119 (Nov 6, 2010)

maxwell_smart007 said:


> I've noticed something over the years - the truly innovative designs don't get copied and sold in the classifieds....that's because they're too hard to make!


 
I like this statement. I had a few over the years I don't know if I am the subject of any of recent discussions. But to the subject of copying work I will take one that is related to me directly. The steampunk art pen blanks also known as the watch parts. Now I have started to offer some of these to members here. It is not mass production I don't claim the idea never did. But as was said it is hard to do and took me a long time to figure it out I came up with my own process and style. Now I am offering them to members that was by demand yes it was someone else's idea (although steampunk art has been around a long time) other members where starved for this type of work. 

Now what is wrong with offering to others something that they can not get anywhere else and can not do themselves. Now just speaking for myself I am no way even close to mass producing. I make one of a kinds that take an immense amount of time because I like to do it not to make money just cover cost.

I think this is something good about our classifieds. There are unique items here that you just can not get anywhere else.

Just a few of my thoughts.


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## ctubbs (Nov 6, 2010)

Ed's post  12,821 strikes a cord with me in several ways.  First let me say that I do not have an inovative bone in my body.  Once upon a time, I was a photographer.  I even made some money from the work.  I found that almost all the 'fun' was producing the first viewing of the shot taken.  REguardless of how well received or wonderful the photo, once I saw it, I was done with it.  Throw it in a box or away, I could care less.  Yes Ed, i fully understand Dawn's feelings about her crationns.  The fun is in the production of the original.  I would have absolutly no intrest in generating a 'how to' for someone else to do this.  What's worse, I most likely could not even come close to doing it the second time due to all the missteps taken the first time through.

Ed, let me say one more thing about you, Your post are almost allways well thought out and elequent.  I like your idea of 'inovater of the year' award.  The charge fee to vote for the best is also a great idea.  This whole thread is a good example of inovation.  Thank you to all the members that are willing to take their time to share with thoes of us that are still trying to learn how to take a piece of something and turn it into a useable device.
Sorry for the ramble
Charles


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## Smitty37 (Nov 6, 2010)

*Inovation*

Here is a little food for thought...you know if I personally came up with some novel idea regarding penturning or pen blanks or almost anything related to pen making....I would probably not even know that it was a novel idea.  Why not?  Because I don't know enough about the craft and its history to be cognizent of what has been done before and what hasn't.

Almost all new comers are in that position, a lot of them have never even used a lathe before they take up pen turning and they take up pen turning because it takes a lot less wood than turning table legs and seems a lot less daunting than turning bowls.  We just don't know if something we do is novel or not.  That being the case I also don't know if what someone here does is novel unless they tell me.  

I was a test equipment/test engineer for years - I was very well versed in my field and I knew when something came along whether it was really new, whether or not it was something warmed over trying to be passed off as new and whether it was likely to work the way it was described.  I often developed novel concepts...I had to to do my job and I had the right background and experience to do it.

With pen making I don't have that background or experience and probably never will.  Yet I see things here I'd like to try some time.  Do I want to try them bad enough to spend hours or days figuring out how the first guy did it...not on your life.  Do I intend to go into competition for sales with the first guy that did it?  Again, not on your life.

So  before condeming the "copiers" you might want to ask yourself what this place is for...if it is intended to be an exclusive "old boys" network, so be it - change the qualifications for joining.  If it's intended to be for turners of all skill levels from the lowest to the highest, then expect everything you do and put on here to be copied.


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## Mr Vic (Nov 7, 2010)

*Innovation Promotion*

Ed,

I'll answer the original question directly before branching off. Set up a nomination forum. During each month the membership may nominate which post they thought most Inovative. The inovation could be pen design, material, technique or new tool. The nomination would include a brief(100 words or less) reason they think it's great. The nominess would then be voted on the following month. Give the members to say the fifth so as not to drag on. Winners would receive an Anniversary Mug and qualify for Innovaqtor of the year. The twelve winners would then go head to head in January with the winner announced in February and crowned King/Queen of the Bash. They would also win a pair of Anniversary Mugs (I really like them).

Now....We need to make it understood that most of us are willing to be "Mentors" but not "Teachers". We had this deiscussion at the local turners meeting this week. A mentor gives you tips and guidence free of charge and with a minimal time commitment. A teacher teaches you how to complete a process from square one and has a large investment of time and as such should be compensated. Equate a Mentor = tips/hints and a Teacher = Tutorials. Now the publishing of the tutorial itself may be considered compensation.

In conclusion I'd like to nominate myself for the Inovator of the month! Did I mention I love the IAP Anniversary Mugs?:wink:


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## GaryMGg (Nov 7, 2010)

I don't have an answer to the questions posed in this thread, but I'll share some of my thoughts and perhaps some innovative thinking will arise from it.
(NB -> be forewarned, you get what you pay for, maybe less!) :wink:

With respect to Eagle and Ron and innovation:
Eagle was a woodworker, Ron was not. And, I was friends with both so this is not to disparage either of them.
Ron's innovations were "restricted" by the tools he had access to. 
For instance, the `Morning After' pen begins life as a 4-piece checkerboard blank, which Ron acquired from another maker.
Ron had a good eye for design; had he been a woodworker, who knows what he'd have produced? 
One day, I hope to see his Stained Glass. I'll bet it's quite well done.

Eagle was a mad-scientist; his envelope was huge and he constantly ramrodded the edge. 
His philosophy, to paraphrase, was `each failure is a step to success.'
On the one hand, Eagle hated tutorials [other than the most basic how-to].
On the other hand, he'd spend hours and hours on the phone with someone talking around the subject trying to get someone to figure out 
how to produce one effect or another.

One of the reasons he had such a strong objection to tutorials is the fear someone would hurt themselves.
And, rightfully so!
The first time Ron visited my shop and I was still fairly new to pen making, he set up his chop saw and stops, 
then proceeded to put on heavy duty work gloves to hold the blank while he cut it! 
I stopped him immediately and we talked. He didn't know it was unsafe to do that.

The other big reason Eagle hated tutorials is he believed it makes people lazy thinkers; he truly believed if someone would exercise their mind, 
they'd figure out how to make something and that specific experience would lead them to further innovations of their own design.
He proved again and again the truth of his theory in the magnificent pens he produced! :biggrin:

Ron and Eagle fought over the _idea_ of sharing ideas; their personal experiences and unique talents sent them down very different roads which 
were really headed to the same location:
both wanted others to learn and grow, but each saw a different means to that end.
Ron was 100% favorable of specific, detailed tutorials. Eagle not.
Ron believed someone might learn from a tutorial, then grow from that experience.
Eagle believed the complex pen tutorials were harmful to the development of a clever mind *and* he was *rightly* concerned someone would fail to 
grasp the safety requirements involved in the making of such difficult items.

Eagle and I disagreed on a principle aspect of his philosophy and often debated a point:
He believed everyone has a clever mind and can figure things out for themselves. I don't. 
Further, I'd argue with him that some folks may have the ability but not the desire to innovate; 
some folks are very skilled technicians who can follow a good set of instructions but they're not innovators.

So, where does this lead us?
I believe there are two basic roads available:
One road is the innovator's path -- that person will disappear into their shop and fiddle with ideas, until they've produced the thing their mind saw. 
When the appropriate time comes, they may (or may not) share it here. They may produce a tutorial or blueprint for making the piece.

The other road is the technician's path -- that person will take a blueprint into their shop and make a finely honed workpiece.

Do these roads ever cross? Do they intersect? And, does the traveler on one ever wind up on the other?
Clearly, yes on all counts.

My personal observation, and it is *merely* my own personal *opinion*, travelers on the technician's road should not jump on innovators to post a 
blueprint for how the innovation came about. 
This is a thing which must be freely offered when the offerer is ready. If that never happens for some particular innovation, so be it.

I still abide with Eagle's concern regarding the safety aspect of our craft. All too often, I read here how someone injured themselves. 
When offering a tutorial, please include guidance for safe production. 
Remember, not all here are woodworkers; some will not be aware of the dangers inherent in certain tool uses.

We should help one another to be as good as we each can be.
We should encourage one another to be as good as we each can be.
However, the most important thing we can do is look inward and encourage ourselves to do all we can to be as good as we can be.
If you're an innovator and you choose to share some or all of your ideas and designs, that's great for technicians and less experienced future innovators.
If you're a great technician, share the means and methods for the safe and accurate making you use in your production.
If you're looking to learn to be an innovator, seek a mentor rather than a tutorial.
If you're a great innovator, answer the call from someone looking for a mentor.
If you have no desire to innovate but want to be a better technician, seek a mentor who is a great technician.
If you're a great technician and see someone wanting to improve their production skills, see if they want you to be their mentor.

My $.02 and worth most of what'cha paid for it.


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## OKLAHOMAN (Nov 7, 2010)

Gary very well said and just makes me miss both. I also was friends with Eagle and spent countless hours on the phone arguing (discussing) pen design. I'm one of the non innovators and he also knew that my preference was man made material.And toward the end he started using more and more of them. Ron and I never talked but he knew I admired his work and sent me one of his segmented pens which sets next to my Eagle collection of pens and blanks.
As I said I miss both of them, miss Ron's Post's and Eagles Calls.


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## scotian12 (Nov 7, 2010)

Gary...I would like to thank you for your response. It was a great summation of both sides of the argument. I am clearly on the side of those that need the tutorial. I cannot visualize a concept in my mind but I can relate to it if I see a visual of it in a tutorial. There is a parallel here to the computer industry. There are many computer people who are innovators and who make the apps for us to buy. Perhaps this is a road we should travel and allow those of us who need a tutorial to pay a small amount for that information. This would be a giant leap for this site as we have always shared our penmaking concepts. Gary, I would agree with your statement on the safety aspect of our craft which most times are overlooked and which can be reinforced in a proper tutorial. I was fortunate early on my penturning career to be to learn from the great pioneers of our craft on Penturners Org,among then Russ Fairfield, Pickens, Richard Kleinhertz, Kurt Hertzog, Don Ward  and Ron Mckinley. Many of these educators are still supporting new penturners today.I do remember Ron and his beautiful segmented turnings. I was concerned about how to cut those tiny pieces on a chop saw and wrote him for directions. He came back with a comment that he cut them free hand close to the blade. That was not for me. I would also point out that Ron was a pioneer in page placement on google and the other search engines. His site was always in page one of google and I too wold like to see what he is doing in stained glass. Many thanks to the innovators on this site and to those that provide the tutorials which help a lot of us to rise further in our craft. Darrell Eisner


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## jttheclockman (Nov 7, 2010)

Well Gary I think we should just close this thread right here. You said it all and said it with great enthusasuim and truth. You summed up or put into words what 2 great minds were like that graced this site with each's own ideas. ( not so good grammer ). I remember reading all the ideas getting tossed and the heated topics back then. I did not even sign up to this site at first because I, even though I was intrigued with the lathe still did not own one let alone make any pens. But I was referred here by some friends and sure enough became more facinated and I blame this site for the financial outcome that followed.

As for myself I guess I fall in the middle of those 2 portrails. I like the plans and the tutorials to follow but I will also branch out on my own or a combination of the two. I am not afraid of failure which I have had many many times and will continue. But I do learn from my mistakes. I also learn from others mistakes and that is why discussions and tutorials I feel are a necessity to the growth of this business. There have been huge strides that have taken this business to new hights and there will be more in the future. Just maybe there is a very tiny spot for me in that climb. Hopefully we all jump on board and take this pen making stuff to those new heights. 

Thanks for writing that post.


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