# IAP Classifieds, Marketing, Advertising



## jeff (Jul 1, 2008)

Hello All,

I've heard from several members lately who are concerned about the way we handle marketing, advertising, and the classifieds at penturners.org. The comments included: 

"Some people are using the IAP as their personal sales site"
"There are too many posts related to selling things"
"Every other post seems to be about buying or selling something"
"When I ask a question, someone tries to sell me something"
"Some people come to the IAP just to sell to us and make money"

I went back over a few weeks and did a quick look at posts. Around 35% of the posts were either classified ads, responses to those, or some other flavor of buying or selling.

So, it's true that a lot of our traffic is related to buying and selling, but I don't know if that's a real problem or not. A good deal of the fun of a pursuit like pen making is buying stuff. I know that I just like to stand back and look at my stash of stuff, and there always seems to be room for more! I think if we like accumulating stuff, and we want access to the really nice things that the mainstream suppliers don't offer, we need to tolerate some amount of this, but maybe we have crossed some line. 

Perhaps the volume of buy/sell posts has gotten to the point where it's annoying and we need to change the way we do things. I don't think we all want to buy less, and I am positive that the sellers don't want to sell less, but maybe we need to somehow change the way we handle it here. There might be a better way to give us all the same access to the goodies, let the sellers continue to offer us good stuff, but better integrate all that with the primary purpose of the site: "... to give penturners a place to enhance their skills, share experiences, and promote the art of penturning."

I would like to hear your opinion. Is this a problem, and if so, what do we do about it? Thanks for you time! (As always, if you prefer not to post here, email me!)

PS: I hate to have to mention this, but please let's not take this topic into the weeds. Focus on the problem and solutions. If you really want to vent about something, email me!!


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## marcruby (Jul 1, 2008)

There is a lot of buying and selling, but I like that.  There seems to be less discussion of how to than there is in the past, but there still is a lot to learn from idle thread watching.  What I find irritating is when the line gets crossed and I can't tell if someone is providing good advice or promoting their own self interest. That does happen, but not all that often.  Just as everywhere else, I have a couple of people on my 'do not trust' list.  But I have a lot of people here on my 'pretty trustworthy' list.  And I learn every day.


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## GoodTurns (Jul 1, 2008)

I buy too much and don't sell enough...probably a common problem in this group.  I have no problem with the volume of classifieds, however would suggest that the posts, like they do for the Members in Need forum, not post in the "Recent Posts" section.  If I want to go shopping, I can go to the buy/sell/swap area and look at what is available or recently posted there, however, I don't need to know each time I log in, that Joe wants to buy X from Bob or that Jim's package arrived safely.  This would control a large part of the visible transactions and allow those who are not interested in buying to avoid the adverts.

ching ching $0.02 (now worth less than a pence, I believe)


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## marcruby (Jul 1, 2008)

> _Originally posted by marcruby_
> 
> There is a lot of buying and selling, but I like that.  There seems to be less discussion of how to than there is in the past, but there still is a lot to learn from idle thread watching.  What I find irritating is when the line gets crossed and I can't tell if someone is providing good advice or promoting their own self interest. That does happen, but not all that often.  Just as everywhere else, I have a couple of people on my 'do not trust' list.  But I have a lot of people here on my 'pretty trustworthy' list.  And I learn every day.
> 
> I have seen cases where the accusation of 'marketing' was applied in one case, and not in another, based on who was the object.  What good is any practice if it isn't applied to everyone equally?  I don't mind someone posting that they have something I want when I'm asking about it, but I do mind a thread being coopted and closed by fiat.


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## gketell (Jul 1, 2008)

I would love it if there was a way to post an ad to classifieds and not have all the "I want to buy XXX" in the post, or the "I received mine today and they are gorgeous" in the thread.  And even more so, I don't want to see it in the email sent out.  I subscribe to the classifieds so I can see the stuff coming up for sale but it gets lost in all the "stuff" after the posting.

GK


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## keithkarl2007 (Jul 1, 2008)

i feel i contribute to that. Someone recently asked if there was someone on here selling bog oak blanks and i said i would try and get some. Next thing i know a few more people asked. I was kinda worried that someone would think i'm only out to make money but i offered to exchange for kits and other blanks [:I]


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## karlkuehn (Jul 1, 2008)

> _Originally posted by GoodTurns_
> 
> I buy too much and don't sell enough...probably a common problem in this group.  I have no problem with the volume of classifieds, however would suggest that the posts, like they do for the Members in Need forum, not post in the "Recent Posts" section.  If I want to go shopping, I can go to the buy/sell/swap area and look at what is available or recently posted there, however, I don't need to know each time I log in, that Joe wants to buy X from Bob or that Jim's package arrived safely.  This would control a large part of the visible transactions and allow those who are not interested in buying to avoid the adverts.
> 
> ching ching $0.02 (now worth less than a pence, I believe)



There's a need for a public record of who bought what, otherwise sellers receive a backlash of 'ugly' emails when something gets double-sold. The only way to avoid that is to constantly monitor your listing for purchases and update immediately, which is pretty tough to do.

I completely agree, though, that it's silly for a seller to respond to every customer's post when a PM will work just fine. There are ways for a seller to post update information without bumping their own ads to the top, and every extra post adds to the bandwidth usage of the site. I was guilty of that before I knew the strain that it puts on the server, and usually my listings are pretty Spartan with very few posts from me aside from one of the recent ones where Johnnie wouldn't leave me alone. [}] 

The only time I can think of that a seller needs to respond to a post (with another post) is when it's in question form, and the answer might be beneficial for everyone to know. For example, someone asked in my most recent listing, "What are the Bruschetta blanks?" I responded publicly so I wouldn't have to answer the same question multiple times.


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## GregMuller (Jul 1, 2008)

Jeff,
I don't see it as a problem. As always if you do not want to see the buy and sell posts don't view them. I on the other hand like looking what the members have up for sale. And once in a while i can even afford some of the stuff and get to buy. As you say alot of what gets sold here is not offered by the mainstream suppliers. Had it   not been for Johnnycnc I would still be turning on a mandrel. My vote is don't change a thing.


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## markgum (Jul 1, 2008)

I agree with most of the comments the 'received mine' and 'I'll take xx of whatever' does get overwhelming in the posts. When I'm in a shopping mood, I come here and see what is being offered.   trading/selling/buying between members helps us get to know one another, build friendships, and expand our skill set.


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## mikemac (Jul 1, 2008)

Thats why there's a classified section.. if you don't to read it, no one is forcing you...
I like them.. just browsing the ads often gives me inspiration.  

Just my opinion, worth exactly what you paid for it. [^]


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## edman2 (Jul 1, 2008)

I will speak only for my self...BUT
I think most regulars on the forum appreciate the "buy/sell" opportunities the forum offers. So, I would vote to keep it a part of the forum. I have not really seen any postings that I considered abuse where someone was unfairly pushing their own products. I have seen salesmanship at work as would be expected if you are offering to sell something.
I do agree we could probably eliminate the "I got Mine" type of responses although I have been guilty of that myself. If each seller could track what has been sold and let the group know quickly that would be good. Otherwise, seeing what has been bought by others sure saves a lot of time in ordering. If we elimate the "I want x,y,z" then we have to have a way to know what is still available. Of course if I'm not interested in buying or selling, I don't have to read those threads at all.
With 5400+ members and growing,a new look at what changes that might require is wise. Shows we have a wise leader!


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## arjudy (Jul 1, 2008)

I think the sellers should limit their posts to the classified forums already on the site. Don't try to sell products in the other forums. I don't have a problem with individuals trying to sell a product. That's what we call free enterprise in the United States. Without it our economy is in the dumper.


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## IPD_Mrs (Jul 1, 2008)

When Linda and I came to IAP we had no intention of selling or anything other than learn and become friends with some wonderful people.  With IAP, at least with us, it was a little different as far as selling.  It was not about making money but more about being able to use the buying force of IAP members so that we are all able to get a product much cheaper.  Novus is a good example of that.  We were selling 8oz bottles for what our local Rockler sold a 2oz bottle.  Kind of like a group buy but for a small percentage we will front the investment and stock the product.  Yes there are some people that only come to IAP to sell, but they provide a service that I think is overlooked.  

Think of it this way....
If there were no products available through IAP where would your sources be for your addiction?  For many of us it would be Rockler and WoodCraft as well as a couple of the bigger well know pen importers.  Not many on here would know of Nolan and would be buying crap off of eBay or forking out $17 a pound for burl chunks at Rockler.  With the exception of the super rare stuff your price and quality is far superior.  How many on here would be playing with alt. ivory or vintage Bakelite?  Not everyone has the equipment to make a Cancun blank like Eugene, so without him offering his creations we would never get to turn something like that.  The same can be said for Karl's wild blanks.  There are many more fine examples of what we would miss out on if products were not offered through here.  If you cut out the marketing on IAP then what is next, group buys?

It is not a perfect world and you will never be able to please everyone.  I do not believe there is a perfect answer to this.  Personally I block out post as easy as I do our daughter's chatter box.    I like to look through what is offered.  I like to build up a little stash so that I can make a special order.  The only thing that I can think of that would be a reasonable compromise would be to offer a control that would allow a member to turn on or off the classified section of the forum.  With that all sales, offer of sale, suggestion of sells or anything else that falls into this would be restricted to the classified sections of the forum.  By doing it this way you as a member have control.  It is kind of like the Sunday paper.  You don't have to look at the supplements to read the sports section, but it is there if you so desire.

Mike


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## PenWorks (Jul 1, 2008)

Being a seller, I really appreciate the way IAP handles it. I would like to see ALL classified posts left off the main board or recent posts. There is no reason other folks need to read our wheeling and dealing. If they want to read about it, then they can in the classifieds under the appropiate forum. I also like to see the wide variety of stuff we can buy here, I like the one stop shop site. I can pretty much buy anything I want here and know who I am buying it from and feel comfortable doing business with them.


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## Russianwolf (Jul 1, 2008)

while I agree with in large part, I think the genesis of this thread is coming from perceived marketing outside of the classifieds sections,.

I've seen many threads such as "what do you do for sharpening" than can have some marketing/selling  type opinions in them. In some others like the BOW threads that frequently pop up, Nolan and other vender-members are mentioned or mention that they have stock themselves. That is marketing or selling in either form. I've picked up the undercurrent that some members have problems with other specific members, but not others when they are mentioned.

Also I see a problem with getting rid of the "Got my stuff, looks great" posts. How are we supposed to figure out if a vendor is good? Those posts provide information on the reliability and quality of the vendor. Would people have been willing to send nearly $6000 to me (one person over $400 by himself) if I had not posted in threads where I bought something saying "got it" which tells people that I fulfilled my part of the deal also.

I don't see this as a problem and if it were a problem I don't see an aimicable solution that would  not alienate members.


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## alphageek (Jul 1, 2008)

Jeff,

Put me in the don't change anything camp.  Is there alot of selling here? Sure - I've bought only a little, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't buy more from the sellers here if I could.  

The sellers that are on here - well they also tend to be the higher volume posters, thus among the most helpful even when they aren't selling.  I know that I continue to "live by" this site for my turning habit.   Even in the SOYP - where "a photos worth a 1000 words", alot of the time you'll see "blank from xyz" which is also a good thing.

So far this is by far my #1 destination on the web - I'd hate to see that change.  So a little tweaking about being sure things are in the right groups may be necessary, but overall I'd hate to see things more locked down.


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## badger (Jul 1, 2008)

I like the classifieds section, I love looking at the wood and buying stuff that fits my ideas/ethos.

badger


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## arioux (Jul 1, 2008)

Well,,,,

I personnaly think that all those sellers here are a BIG BIG BIG problem.......

Too many great deal and not enough money to get them all.

Seriously, i love coming in here and go to the classified.  I think everyone here have experience the frustration of missing a great deal on blanks because they where all gone. Always someone getting rid of some kits at a give away price, all those nice and exclusive  casting and tools that people make, Paul vise is the best exemple.  Plus most of those vendor are part of the familly so no rip off, always honest and willing to give you more than your money's worth.

Yes,,,, a BIG problem....well at least for my wife.[)]

Alfred


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## flcad2000 (Jul 1, 2008)

I would vote for leaving it the way it is - I like having the sale ads in the recent posts - I may not buy much now, but I can see what is available.


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## greenmtnguy (Jul 1, 2008)

I buy and sell and go to the classifieds first. My shortcut on my desktop is set to forums, so I bypass home and go straight to where I want to be. This way, I read only what I want and I expect two way communication in the classifieds. Keep the posting as it is. I have seen items sell with seconds between replies and the time posting ends any doubt as to who is first. Would the annoying traffic be easier to avoid if all forums was the entrance, and as you enter,pick the direction you want to go? I like it as it is.


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## GoodTurns (Jul 1, 2008)

bien dit, Alfred (and thanks for pulling that out of 10th grade!)

the vast majority of our vendors (and yes, we do think of them as "ours") provide above grade product to this community, and many of us are better for it, yet poorer at the same time[) I cannot imagine a group waiting months for a single item and cheering to be on the list</u> for a PHDVise (and I think he posts about 2x a month when he comes out, covered in metal shavings, to name his next child's parent) and yes, I'm on that list and have picked a special place to raise my child) I "sell" from time to time (when I cannot walk through the room in front of the shop) and love to do trades for whatever someone else wants to get rid of ****light just came on, watch the swaps and trades forum![8D] 

I stick by my initial post, the re-posts to an offering should not be in the main window recent posts scroll box.  I am on the computer most of the day and when that window refreshes, I check it out, hoping for some bit of information or stray fire from ED CAV and Co...only to find out that Jimmy's real happy with Ed'd delivery!  Jimmy's post should</u> be in the Sales Forum, but not in the "Breaking News" scroll box....


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## ericw95 (Jul 1, 2008)

I agree with GoodTurns.  I visit the classifieds every time I visit to see if there is something I must have.  Most times the diamond in the ruff that I am interested in is not even on the recent posts listing.  It would be nice to have the posts related to classifieds not in the most recent posts section.


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## Russianwolf (Jul 1, 2008)

> _Originally posted by GoodTurns_
> 
> 
> I stick by my initial post, the re-posts to an offering should not be in the main window recent posts scroll box.  I am on the computer most of the day and when that window refreshes, I check it out, hoping for some bit of information or stray fire from ED CAV and Co...only to find out that Jimmy's real happy with Ed'd delivery!  Jimmy's post should</u> be in the Sales Forum, but not in the "Breaking News" scroll box....


But I don't think they can puck and choose which posts will show in the "breaking news" from a specific forum. So while you might not like to see that Jimmy got his purchase, I bet you would like to see "Fresh batch of Cocobolo Burl up for grabs". That initial post can be very important.

I don't know that the mods/jeff can make the first post show without all the others following. I think it's either all or nothing for a specific forum. Much like the Members in Need forum. I was disappointed to find that it didn't show in the recent posts (as well as it's not on the drop down menu under "forums". Someone may want to fix that). I didn't know about the raffle for Johnny until I saw a post in Casual Conversations about it.


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## GoodTurns (Jul 1, 2008)

thank you Mike...[:I]  them's the words I was looking for...it's like being in the shop, I know it's here, just can't find it!  Initial post in the "Current Posts" , replies out.


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## DCBluesman (Jul 1, 2008)

Thirty-five percent of the posts relating to buying and selling is a bit much.  I don't think we need to change much other than a couple of behaviors.  

First, posts like "Harry, I got my package.  Thanks!" are of no value to the forum as a whole.  Neither are posts like "Beatrice, your total is $796.20."  Those communications can be handled through the forum email.  In the new forum (when it is launched), we will have real "private messaging" which will also easily accommodate these posts.  

Second, in terms of posts like "The blanks look great!", perhaps we buyers could post a photo of a completed project and acknowledge the source.  I think thoses posts would add more value than "The wood looks better in person."

I'm not unhappy with things the way they are, but we could tighten it up just a little.


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## IPD_Mrs (Jul 1, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Russianwolf_
> 
> Also I see a problem with getting rid of the "Got my stuff, looks great" posts. How are we supposed to figure out if a vendor is good? Those posts provide information on the reliability and quality of the vendor. Would people have been willing to send nearly $6000 to me (one person over $400 by himself) if I had not posted in threads where I bought something saying "got it" which tells people that I fulfilled my part of the deal also.
> 
> I don't see this as a problem and if it were a problem I don't see an aimicable solution that would  not alienate members.



This is an excellent point.  I think things are ok the way they are.  I believe that most of us sell to each other as "family" and do so at pretty low cost.  However, as is pointed out above we are only going to learn which members are good to deal with and those that there are issues (which we should at least be aware of so that we can make informed decisions, when we decide who we want to send money to) if we can see posts such as these.  Of course, I do tend to be a little conservative about those I let get their hands in my pockets!
If there are people who come here "only" to sell, or people who sell "only" to make a huge profit then I also believe that most of our members are smart enough to figure out for themselves -_*given the current system*_- where the better deals are and which deals are simply rip offs.  If someone wants to make a purchase from anyone of these individuals that is their choice to  make ... and their money to spend.  On the other hand, I want to be able to see who is selling what as soon as it is posted and who has bougth what *leave it in the active topics because when I have a spare minute at work I can't always come into the classifieds and go through every topic*.  As another member stated sometimes items sell almost within seconds of their being posted.  I would rather not waste mine, nor the sellers time, contacting them when the item they listed has been sold for 2 hours or even more.

Just my 2 cents....

Mrs.


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## Randy_ (Jul 1, 2008)

I like the ads.  There is lots of neat stuff available out there and IAP is about the only convenient way to hear about it??  What I don't like is all of the "personal" posts that go along with the ad.  Messages like:

email sent
thanks
package received
what is your PP address
shipped yesterday  
etc.

don't need to be taking up my time or IAP bandwidth.  IMO, all of that type of stuff should be accomplished through email channels off forum between the buyer and seller.  I don't see any need for it to be on the forum.

I would like the see the ads locked after they are posted so that all individual business between the buyer and seller is directed to off forum email.


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## JayDevin (Jul 1, 2008)

I like it as it is.


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## wicook (Jul 2, 2008)

Hi Jeff...I don't see it as a problem, either. If I don't want to read about stuff for sale, it's  easy to skip over it.


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## Tea Clipper (Jul 2, 2008)

It seems to me, the people who complain about the extra posts in the classified are the people who subscribe to that forum.  They are the ones that get an email sent to them whenever someone posts something under that category.  Their goal is to know asap when a new item is listed but are complaining about the chatter that follows.  Sounds to me like a case of 'you can't have your cake and eat it too'.

Rather than subscribing, one solution is to swing by and visit the active topics here at IAP more often. []  This way, you won't get emails about stuff you're not interested in.  Why do people want to make things more complicated than they really are?


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## nava1uni (Jul 2, 2008)

I like things as they exist at the moment.  I can go to the classified section if I am looking for something.  I like reading that what someone is selling is nice, that they are quick to respond and that  they deliver in a timely manner.  Is something pops up in another thread I can either read it or skip it.  I like this site for the most part, but sometimes find it difficult that people get so upset and vent, in what appears to be an inappropriate manner.  Selling and buying things seem to upset some people, but I agree with both Mikes above and don't really want to see major changes to the site in this regards.


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## Texatdurango (Jul 2, 2008)

I guess I'm one of those who do see a bit of a problem.  I think there are some problems popping up and it isnâ€™t as easy to solve as â€œIf you donâ€™t want to read the ads, stay away from the classifiedsâ€  I think there is some fairly aggressive marketing going on and itâ€™s spilling out into the other forums so you see it whether you want to or not.

Within the past few weeks there have been a few very volatile threads that had to be shut down and guess what was at the root of all of themâ€¦ selling, how much was being charged and how items were being marketed and there were some pretty strong opinions on both sides. Last month a moderator had to put out a plea for members to stop disrupting people selling things as it seemed that several members thought the sellers were a bit excessive in their prices.  I even remember seeing the term â€œgougingâ€ mentioned a few times.

So while there is not a meltdown, obviously all is not well in Mayberry!

Linda of MLKWoodWorking made some good observations that I would like to add to.   I am not picking on anyone; Iâ€™m just using blanks as an example since so many are being sold making them an easy target! 

Some members are indeed selling things at some pretty darn good prices, better than can be found anywhere else but we also have those who unfortunately arenâ€™t!  

I think I see where some people were coming from recently when they made comments in advertising threads.  Some see fellow members almost as family and try to watch their brothers back.  It seems like only yesterday that $4 or $5 was a lot for a really nice stabilized blank or $7 to $10 was the upper limits for a killer blank and $20 for the very unique labor intensive hand crafted blanks.  And many of the â€œoutsideâ€ vendors selling blanks still charge roughly those same prices but lately $15, $20, $25 and up is quite common for blanks around here.  Whatâ€™s going on?  Could it be because of a captive audience?  Are the prices based on the â€œrarityâ€ of the item?  If they are so rare, why are they always available?  Iâ€™ve seen some real â€œfeeding frenziesâ€ and couldnâ€™t understand why.

Sorta reminds me of the gas situation in a way.   In February I paid $3.10 for diesel, today I paid $4.70.  Is fuel really worth $1.60 more a gallon in four months or are we being taken advantage of?

Keep in mind, this is just an opinion and is not directed towards anyone.


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## rlharding (Jul 2, 2008)

I don't have a clue why the present system is a problem? This is a site about everything to do with penturning or not, i.e., casual conversations. Can someone please explain why it is a problem to post that an item has been received and that it looks great? 

Is this complaining for complaining sake?


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## mitchm (Jul 2, 2008)

I am also on the "leave it the way it is" side. If I don't like what I see, I don't read the post/for sale listing. The for sale items on this site have allowed me to learn what is "out there" and what blanks etc can be produced by the sellers! The "received my blanks and they are stunning" has shown me that a fellow PENTURNER feels he got a good deal and that the product is good, these would not have been bought if the goods were not priced right. It also gives an indication of service by the seller! Just my opinion.


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## THarvey (Jul 2, 2008)

I like seeing the classifieds.  There are a lot of things offered here that I cannot find elsewhere.

I would like to see a seperate forum for "wanted to buy" so the classifieds are easier to read though.


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## rincewind03060 (Jul 2, 2008)

I don't think it's broke, so don't fix it.


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## fyrcaptn (Jul 2, 2008)

At times I don't mind reading the "classified ads". Sometimes I WANT to. I like others, wish I could buy more! I know without a lot of the mentioned type posts, my 'knowledge' would be much less than the low level it is now.
I don't think the buying/selling is much of a problem for me. 
I wonder if there might be some way to mark or better mark a thread as an offer to sell. There may be - I am pretty new here and just may not know. 
Thnk you to all who make this site the wealth of information that it is!


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## ctwxlvr (Jul 2, 2008)

IMHO I think several had good ideas, 

Limit selling and marketing of items to the classified forums (but if some one asks a question and a "vendor" has what is needed to "fix" the problem link the vendor's post in the classifieds and don't try to sell in the regular forums).

Restrict the classified forums appearing in the recent items to first post only(not sure if this can be done)

Restrict the type of post replying to an item/s for sale to I want xxx send invoice, and received xxx,  also any questions about the item/s.

Require the seller to keep the listing up to date at least once a day.

Attempt to get some of the retail vendors active in the classifieds offering specials for IAP members maybe set up a preferred vendor  listing (retail vendors who support IAP)


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## Mudder (Jul 2, 2008)

> _Originally posted by rlharding_
> 
> I don't have a clue why the present system is a problem? This is a site about everything to do with penturning or not, i.e., casual conversations. Can someone please explain why it is a problem to post that an item has been received and that it looks great?
> 
> Is this complaining for complaining sake?



I agree with Ruth.

We have the choice to look or not to look and if someone wants to sell something we have the choice to buy or not to buy.

If we want to cut out all of the "received my item" posts then we should also cut out all the "nice pen, good job" posts in the SOYP forum.


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## IPD_Mrs (Jul 2, 2008)

Even after my lengthy response yesterday, I have to admit that Scott and Ruth are short to the point and accurate.

Mike


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## Sylvanite (Jul 2, 2008)

As a member who also sells to others, I've become a bit concerned.  I enjoy the IAP greatly, and I certainly don't want to abuse the priviliges of membership.  I have, however, done some of the things that are now forbidden - such as test marketing (but I won't anymore).

I also respond when people ask where they can buy what I sell, I complment pens made from similar materials, and I have a weblink to my sales page in my signature.  Those things show up outside the classifieds section.  Should I stop?

My post count is not extremely high, as I usually only post when I feel I have something worthwhile to say, and I limit my ad posting to when I have something new to sell.  I conduct the vast majority of my sales through my website so that traffic doesn't clutter up the IAP forums.

In other words, I'm trying to be a good IAP citizen.  I'm just not sure where the boundaries lie.  I'd like to make the Most Valued Vendors list someday, but more than that I want to be an upstanding member of this group I respect highly.  

Jeff, if the acceptable practices are changing, can you provide some guidance to help us avoid inadvertently breaking the rules?

Thanks,
Eric


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## airrat (Jul 2, 2008)

I agree with alot of what I am seeing.  Maybe we should cut down on the the "extra" post everyone is talking about.


When a thread reaches 10 pages it get real hard to follow it.   But if it just lists the items, questions pertaining to the item and orders, that will make it easier.   All the PM sent, paypal address, WOW this looks great, ect ect... post can be limited to Private messages.   I too am guilty of this and to tell you the truth its probably because I am too lazy to click on another button and type it in.   I know I will cut down on this.



Edited to add
As to all the compliments of the items purchased, naturally all the good comments will be posted.  But, posting something negative toward another members sale items could raise problems.   Last thing we need is more negative/flame threads.


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## monkeynutz (Jul 2, 2008)

Just one guy's opinion, of course...  Thinking that PMs or emails should be used to let a "vendor" know you received (or did not receive) an order, or to make an order in the first place.  No problem for the sellers to use the proper place(s) in the forums to advertise what they have, and to update availability as items are sold out.  One of the valuable things about the forums for me is to find out where I can get things I want or need, and if the source is a member here, so much the better.  If we police ourselves to keep these things in their proper places in the forums, then nobody can be upset, as they don't even have to enter those areas if they are not in the market for something.

It has been my experience that no forum is any better than the members' own willingness to keep within the framework of the rules.


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## Nolan (Jul 2, 2008)

Here is my 2 cents even though I normaly try to stear clear of these post, but seeing how I am a big part of this issue I will offer my take on this. One problem I see with cutting down with all the post about "got it" and things of that nature is "emails get lost". It is nice as a seller to let folks know in two places (PM and Post) whats going on. I will also add a couple other comments as I am part of this quote "problem". When the MVV area was started I also got my website up and going (thanks to an awesome member). So I bacially just posted a list of what I had and their respective prices and a referance to my website. I then stopped posting in the classified sections and just let folks buy off the site or from the one listing in MVV. And of course would respond to other posts of "do you know where I can get this" or "try Nolan". I did this to try and simplify the saleing and also not tax the IAP forum as much. Plus I could spend more time in the other forums and not be tied to my listings in the classified. Well soon I started seeing alot of post for stuff for sale that I sell and they were alot more expensive than I sell them for. I hate to see this and have even talked privately to members about it. How do I offer my products without flooding the forum with sales post? How do other members inform the new folks of a fair price for blanks without poluting another members post? We have new members here all the time and I know when I started out I had no idea the price of blanks or who to get them from. I sell products and strive to be know for only the highest quality blanks available and stuff you cant get anywhere else. At the same time I also want to offer the best possible price on the standard stuff. I also would really like to know if somebody is selling something of the same quality cheaper than me, that way I dont need to carry something that I cant offer at the best price. The finding, milling and selling of burl for me has become as big a passion as turning is and selling them allows me to continue doing it.


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## bitshird (Jul 2, 2008)

I think the classifieds, is pretty good as it stands, I would like to make sure that the adds are updated daily, I also think that a member linking to an add when answering a question regarding where can I find XXX is OK.
 I think some of the quibbling over one member charging this and I'm charging this is a disservice to the entire community, especially in a non commercial forum such as Casual Conversation.
 And the pouting of another members add should be a matter for censure, with the polluting member not allowed to use the classifieds for selling their goods.


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## Nolan (Jul 2, 2008)

> _Originally posted by bitshird_
> 
> I think some of the quibbling over one member charging this and I'm charging this is a disservice to the entire community,



Couldnt agree more and I think what ever is done should keep this in mind. I dont think there is an easy solution to this, but providing a service to the membership should be the ultimate goal.


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## stevebuk (Jul 2, 2008)

FWIW, i dont mind people advertising and replying to orders bought or sold, but i would like to see the signatures of some people cut down by half, there is half a page of total crap in some of them and i find this distracting to say the least.
thank you.


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## Daniel (Jul 2, 2008)

Even from doing Bulk buy I always think about just how long a thread gets. over a dozen pages in a lot of cases. I have often wanted the entire thing to move to PM but do not really see an organized way to do that unless an offer was simply locked after ti was made. then people have to PM you to get in.
As for for profit sellers. Think of this as well. We have suppliers right here that actually interact with the members of the group. they are not only familiar with what we want but what we want to do with it. If not I have seen many times they will take the time to find out what the use will be and will go out of there way to get suitable materials tools or what have you. That is pretty custom service and what sort of value can you put on that. IF so and so sells something and somebody pasts questions about it I see no problem in them being able to make the sale. It has to work both ways, You can't expect suppliers to stay around and bend over backwards to meet the need and then put them down for trying to stay in business. I was around before all the bulk buys and interaction with the suppliers. And I would not want to go back to that.


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## Russianwolf (Jul 2, 2008)

On the group buys, since I did just organize one, I can say that I would NOT want to have to send out 50+ emails everytime I needed to update people on the status. Or have to keep track of 50+ emails coming in for orders. It's too easy for something to fall through the cracks in my email.

I guess we could do as Paul did and set up a free email account specifically to run the buy, but that doesn't get away from the updates.


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## gwilki (Jul 2, 2008)

Jeff: Since we're now at page 4 of this thread, there is really nothing that I can say that hasn't been said. However, since you asked for input, mine is to stay the course. I don't sell, but I've bought plenty using the classifieds here. When I am not looking for anything, I don't look at the classifieds. (Well, maybe some times, I can't resist.  ) But, I don't see how someone can be offended when I haven't seen anyone here pointing a gun to their head and forcing them to look.


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## Gary Max (Jul 2, 2008)

Jeff-- I have a question-----I just posted a tread under penturning----Inlay--how I do it--am I selling or is the post just helping answer  questions ???????? I did include where the wood came from and the info on the kit also---is that marketing or just added info.


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## Scott (Jul 2, 2008)

Hi Jeff!

I know I have been quiet on this issue.  That's not because I have some strong opinion on the subject, rather it's because I don't know what to think!

We didn't envision this place as a big commercial enterprise.  Yet, one thing we all have in common is the buying of "stuff" to support our habit!  We knew that buying and selling would, naturally, need to take place here, and we hoped that it would remain orderly.  For the most part, it has.

But there have been two alarming trends recently that have pushed the boundaries of congenial commerce:  1) Marketing off of the classifieds forums, and 2) outlandish claims and prices.  As for the first, there is nothing wrong with reminding people to keep their marketing efforts on the appropriate forum.  If they refuse, and continue to violate the rules, there are sanctions available.  As to the second, I have to say that for the most part we are all grown-ups around here.  If you are buying something off the Internet, you had best be doing so with your eyes open!  And if you buy something and feel that it does not live up to your expectations, deal with the vendor.  We are not the police.

As much as we all get along here at the IAP, we are generally an open forum, and as such there is the potential for abuse.  Sometimes we forget that this site is all part of the big, wide-open Internet.  We all need to have a caution with our dealings here.

I have to say I like the idea of keeping the classifieds posts off the "Recent Posts" section of the front page.  But then, I rarely look at that section anyway.  As a matter of fact, I was not particularly aware of most of this problem until just recently because I choose not to look at those things that don't interest me.  Even when reading a thread, if some post wanders into areas I have no interest in, I skip it.

I guess what this post comes down to is that, as always, you know you have my support, and I am glad to help if there is anything I can do!  Oh, and there are these blanks I have been thinking of selling . . .   

Scott.


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## ed4copies (Jul 2, 2008)

Well,

As one of the "guilty parties" of moving "advertising" out of the Ad house, I can only say, I will do whatever you wish.  I'm not HERE to start trouble. So, assimilation would be the mode of the day.

HOWEVER, I don't want to get in a car with any of you who can't tell an ad from a street sign.  When you read the billboard that tells you the restaurant you are seeking is a mile ahead, take a right and look for the SIGN, does that also offend you?  No point in paying attention to it -- DO THE MANLY thing!!!  GET LOST!!!!

Although the statistics are not at my fingertips, each day an "average American" encounters THOUSANDS of ads (more if you listen to the RADIO while you drive or are at work)  In fact, we play the radio at our office.  Is it reasonable to assume NO one here gets anything done, cause they can't resist LISTENING to all the ads???

If I make materials available as prizes or as IAP benefit auction materials, IS that an AD????  You Betcha!!!!  SO, you want to ban that too???  OR move it to "classifieds"???   I should put in the IAP benefit, Ed4copies donated something, please see the classifieds for more information, but BUY your DONATION tickets HERE?????   Won't this be a LITTLE confusing, when Lou adds his nibs and Nolan a nice burl and Mike a "lot" of brass ager........well, I hope I am making my point.

If not, here it is: 

WE ALL ENCOUNTER ADVERTISING EVERY DAY, THOUSANDS OF TIMES AND WE SURVIVE IT, JUST FINE.  BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU WISH FOR. THOSE WHO SELL PRODUCTS HERE ARE ALSO THE FIRST TO *DONATE* PRODUCTS.  THIS MAKES SENSE, SINCE WE ARE, GENERALLY, THE ONES WHO *HAVE PRODUCTS*.

<center>*
DUH*</center>[:0][:0][:0]

Make whatever policy you wish, I will comply.  But, the whole question exhibits the epitome of naivete. It seems most of the respondents here don't mind the "advertising" or product placement, you suppose they have become unresponsive to advertising --- what a surprise!!! 

BTW, can I still call it a "Beall collet" in a thread, or will that be an ad for Beall products???[8D][8D][8D][8D]

This opinion, like all my opinions, is worth every penny you paid for it!!!  Only this time, some of you HAVE paid for my products for which I AM grateful.  THANK YOU.   

(Soapbox placed under arm, and he walks "off-stage".)


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## IPD_Mrs (Jul 2, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Russianwolf_
> 
> On the group buys, since I did just organize one, I can say that I would NOT want to have to send out 50+ emails everytime I needed to update people on the status. Or have to keep track of 50+ emails coming in for orders. It's too easy for something to fall through the cracks in my email.
> 
> I guess we could do as Paul did and set up a free email account specifically to run the buy, but that doesn't get away from the updates.



I think this is a good point.  I also think this would drastically cut down the number of people Willing to run group buys.  I know the time and effort involved in doing a LARGE group buy and I also know that if that time and effort were increased even buy 25% due to having to send out emails most of us would have to SERIOUSLY consider if it would be worth the time taken away from our family, friends, businesses, turning, pets, lives ... etc in order to do something that is basically done to help others.  I think what this would lead to is a few people getting together outside the forum and making "smaller group buys" which would effectively leave the bulk of the members without the ability to make purchases at the better rates obtained when someone jumps in and offers to donate their time to this particular cause.

On another note.... Jeff indicated that 35% of our posts have been related to sales in some way.  We have aprox 5000 members?  If there are an average of 2 posts per day per member that is 10,000 posts per day .. I don't have access to any statistics so I am simply throwing out some numbers here ... 

I am wondering .. what percentage of complaints are there?  Is this something that 4 or 5 people find annoying or is it something that 25% of the general active population of IAP has complained about?

I guess I just would hate to see a good group of people, who for the most part do try to provide other members with reasonable prices on items that they can't get elsewhere - or cheaper prices than they can get elsewhere whenever possible, miss out because a few of our clan might be able to just look the other way, or be given a tool to block something out .. etc.   I don't think we can ever please every one - no matter how hard we try.

Mrs


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## BRobbins629 (Jul 2, 2008)

Seems to me this thread and others like it take more bandwith and storage space than most of the ads.  Keep em coming for me.  Some of my best pen materials have come from our IAP suppliers and I want to know if someone is happy or unhappy with a product and how good the service is.  It doesn't take a long time on this forum to determine who's opinions you feel comfortable with.  Haven't been burned yet on a purchase here and that's more than I can say for other internet sites.


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## Monty (Jul 2, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Daniel_
> 
> Even from doing Bulk buy I always think about just how long a thread gets. over a dozen pages in a lot of cases. I have often wanted the entire thing to move to PM but do not really see an organized way to do that unless an offer was simply locked after ti was made. then people have to PM you to get in.
> As for for profit sellers. Think of this as well. We have suppliers right here that actually interact with the members of the group. they are not only familiar with what we want but what we want to do with it. If not I have seen many times they will take the time to find out what the use will be and will go out of there way to get suitable materials tools or what have you. That is pretty custom service and what sort of value can you put on that. IF so and so sells something and somebody pasts questions about it I see no problem in them being able to make the sale. It has to work both ways, You can't expect suppliers to stay around and bend over backwards to meet the need and then put them down for trying to stay in business. I was around before all the bulk buys and interaction with the suppliers. And I would not want to go back to that.





> _Originally posted by Russianwolf_
> 
> On the group buys, since I did just organize one, I can say that I would NOT want to have to send out 50+ emails everytime I needed to update people on the status. Or have to keep track of 50+ emails coming in for orders. It's too easy for something to fall through the cracks in my email.
> 
> I guess we could do as Paul did and set up a free email account specifically to run the buy, but that doesn't get away from the updates.


This is exactly why I set up a web page for the Box Buys I run. That way no one has to post "I want x number of boxes, PM me an invoice"
They place the order through PayPal and I get an order from them with exactly how many of each and the total. I have the few that prefer to pay by check or MO PM what they want. 

As for advertising, I try to keep it in the correct forums although I may be guilty of mis posting some times. I'll try to keep from doing that, but as has been pointed out numerous times, if you don't want to buy anything, don't read the classified.

Or are some offended that I have my web sites in my sig line? I know I'm not the only one guilty of that.


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## JimB (Jul 2, 2008)

I find it very helpful when some selling or marketing info is in another forum.  For example when sameone posts in the Penturning forum and someone responds with an answer, it sometimes involves a "gizmo" that they can get from an IAP member that will help them. Or the response may tell them of a great resource (service or cost savings) that is available from another member. I find these little reminders very helpful. I don't think I have ever felt I was getting a hard sell from anyone in one of the other forums. Longer term members may remember who sells what but for myself, a newer member (or mybe just my memory isn't what it was), it is great info.

As far as the "got mine" posts, generally i like to see them as it speaks to the quality and service they are getting. If I don't want to know I just don't read it.

As far as people who may be here only to sell us stuff, that's OK. Personally I won't buy from someone on here unless I see they are an active memeber (I can see how many posts they have) and I have seen other members buying from them... but that's the same I do everywhere... buyer beware.

I don't see the need for any major changes.


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## DCBluesman (Jul 2, 2008)

> _Originally posted by jeff_
> 
> ...I've heard from *several members* lately ...


(emphasis added)

A quick count of the two days of responses indicates that a huge majority of folks do not believe there is too much buying/selling/advertising going on.  There are a lot of thoughts on ways to tweak the system (moving things off the "Recent Posts" listing, reducing the rote acknowledgements, etc.), but by my count count it is at least 10 to 1 believing that the problem doesn't exist or isn't burdensome.

It doesn't appear that the membership thinks it is broken.  Until we have a significantly better way of handling it, why change a thing?


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## IPD_Mrs (Jul 2, 2008)

> _Originally posted by DCBluesman_
> 
> It doesn't appear that the membership thinks it is broken.  Until we have a significantly better way of handling it, why change a thing?




I bow to your wisdom and insight.


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## GaryMGg (Jul 2, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Mudder_
> If we want to cut out all of the "received my item" posts then we should also cut out all the "nice pen, good job" posts in the SOYP forum.


Nice post, good justification.

[}]


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## OKLAHOMAN (Jul 2, 2008)

I don't sell much but I buy alot and 1/2 of what I buy here dosen't come from the classified, some comes from the SOYP when I spot a blank that X sells and  the poster acknowledages the supplier of the blank. Am I guilty of posting in SOYP and giving credit to a supplier of the blank,kit etc. yes, and if some want to call that advertising I will plead guilty as charged, I'm also guilty of posting sometimes that this cactus,snake,worthless blank ect, I poured and the few people that are complaning might see even that as marketing well folks, I've never sold a single castus,snake or impregnated wood blank on this forum but have given for auctions,raffles,bashes many, many blanks. I guess what I'm trying to say is that if you decide that acknowleding others on post is to much marketing we'll all have to comply but thats not going to be any help to members who are new or don't know another member has something that they might use. I think its time for the few to stop trying to rule the many......


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## GaryMGg (Jul 2, 2008)

As a seller who, of recent, has been mostly selling and not really contributing to further the education and benefit of the main membership, I feel compelled to respond more seriously than I did to Mudder.

When I first started participating here, I tried to order via PM and was told via PM to make my wishes known with a post to the thread. The justification I was given was the public communication served as a display by which all could judge the interaction and therefore each involved (buyers & sellers) would earn their reputations.
The idea made sense to me then and still does and I believe it's served the members of this forum well.
The idea of removing follow-ups to a classified Original Post from the "Recent Posts" scroll box is a good one provided it's easily accomplished and doesn't take Jeff's time away from accomplishing his larger goal of rolling out the new forum software.
Other than that, I'm a member of the `Ain't broke' bandwagon. I don't see a major issue crying for lots of attention within the classified section.

BTW, now that I've returned from vacation and Jenn's wedding, I'll be offering more stuff for sale --- so, stay tuned


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## altaciii (Jul 2, 2008)

Page 4 (continued) When I first got into the addiction all of my supplies came from Woodcraft.  Until I found this site I was throwing my money away on overpriced items and never realized they were a reseller.  I guess I was just blinded by what I wanted and they were the only ones I knew that carried the stuff I just had to have.  Thanks to you and the members on IAP it is a very rare occasion that I go back to them.  Without this site I never would have had the opportunity to turn some of the nicest pens I've ever made.  I'm down here in deep South Texas and besides mesquite theres not a lot of variety on what I can turn, so about the only place I can go to without wearing out google or any of the other search engines is right here.  My regular customers are all quite amazed at the variety of different materials available to me.  Karls blanks, mesquitemans cactus just to name a couple.  I enjoy scanning the assortment of items the latest posts show.  If I see something I like, I buy it.  If I see something that doesn't appeal to me, I just go on.  My vote is to leave it the way it is.  For those that think theres too much marketing on the lastest post, my feeling is just don't open it and go on.


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## wdcav1952 (Jul 2, 2008)

> _Originally posted by ed4copies_
> 
> Well,
> 
> ...



Dawn had to help with this post as Ed doesn't know that many big words!! [}]


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## dalemcginnis (Jul 2, 2008)

Keep it like it is.  I like the ads showing up in the recent posts list and if the title of the ad doesn't seem to be something I'm interested in at the time I don't open it.  Just because a topic shows up in the recent post list doesn't mean you have to read it.


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## Malainse (Jul 3, 2008)

The only thing that I would change is make it mandatory that the price and quantity is listed.


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## JohnU (Jul 3, 2008)

I like the fact that I can buy from people who use their products.  I think we get better items and a great test site review by seeing the finished products.  I say, dont change a thing.


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## fernhills (Jul 3, 2008)

Hi, I sell blanks, I buy blanks, I sell blanks, I buy blanks, I sell blanks, I buy blanks, in ind. classified.
 I donate about 10 per cent of gross to forum,in the last couple of months since i have been selling. Is that not a good thing? (as Martha would say.)   I would not change a thing.  Carl


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## sbell111 (Jul 3, 2008)

I don't think the classified area is broken.  However, I think too many threads in other areas of the furoms get derailed by people pushing products, whether it is their own products or that of their buds.


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## ed4copies (Jul 3, 2008)

> _Originally posted by wdcav1952_
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That word was, entirely, my own, Cav!!!

IMPRESSED??????


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## roddesigner (Jul 3, 2008)

Still being fairly new here I know one change I would like to see in the most valuable vendor list, for someone perhaps not familiar with who sells what,I went a little wacky trying to find who carried CA couldn't remember the name finally found it by going through the extra member submitted links.
I would like to see a little more info re the vendors on the the MVVL not just the names, what they normally sell even a simple wood-burls- CA or Acrylics and perhaps a link to a web page if available, just think it would make life a little easier for the new guys like me


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## IPD_Mrs (Jul 3, 2008)

> _Originally posted by ed4copies_
> 
> That word was, entirely, my own, Cav!!!
> 
> IMPRESSED??????



I think Cav is dumbfounded! [:0]


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## ed4copies (Jul 3, 2008)

> _Originally posted by MLKWoodWorking_
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Sometimes!???!!


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## mdburn_em (Jul 3, 2008)

Simply put, I like the classifieds.

If I could, I would buy everything for my hobby here.

My most frequented forums are 
1. Casual Conversation
2. MVV
3. Business Classifieds


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