# Lighting options?



## PenAffair

Hey folks,

I have a Canon EOS450D, and one of those cheap Ebay light tents & two small energy efficient lamps (forget the wattage, the gear is a few hundred km away).

I'd prefer to be using the tent outside in the daylight, but where I live is always windy and it blows around, so I have to take pictures indoors. 
I've tried using light near a window, but it is either too harsh from being direct, or too dull, and casts shadows. The end result when I can get a decent shot seems to be a granulated picture.

What I'm wondering is whether throwing more light on the subject indoors would would reduce the ditherings, or whether I'm expecting too much. I'm using the kit 18 - 55 zoom lens, and have considered the EF-S 60mm Macro lens for better optics, but the $600-$700 price tag for the lens limits this option.

I'm probably being picky, as I'm looking at the 100% crop of a 12Mp image. But assuming I can improve the result, what lighting do people use to get well defined, high res images of their pens?

Thanks. Russell.


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## Bree

PenAffair said:


> Hey folks,
> 
> I have a Canon EOS450D, and one of those cheap Ebay light tents & two small energy efficient lamps (forget the wattage, the gear is a few hundred km away).
> 
> I'd prefer to be using the tent outside in the daylight, but where I live is always windy and it blows around, so I have to take pictures indoors.
> I've tried using light near a window, but it is either too harsh from being direct, or too dull, and casts shadows. The end result when I can get a decent shot seems to be a granulated picture.
> 
> What I'm wondering is whether throwing more light on the subject indoors would would reduce the ditherings, or whether I'm expecting too much. I'm using the kit 18 - 55 zoom lens, and have considered the EF-S 60mm Macro lens for better optics, but the $600-$700 price tag for the lens limits this option.
> 
> I'm probably being picky, as I'm looking at the 100% crop of a 12Mp image. But assuming I can improve the result, what lighting do people use to get well defined, high res images of their pens?
> 
> Thanks. Russell.


 
I saw this tent which is not cheap but looks great to me.  The 12" tent would be perfect for taking pen PIX and would allow you to use natural light since it protects the pen from the wind.

http://www.ezcube.com/index.html

:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:


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## alphageek

Personally, If you are trying to fix things by optics - I'd consider a cheaper alternative.   A prime lens is going to get you a better image overall.   A 50mm f1.8 is going to be very cheap... You might have to back off a little bit for minimum focus, but with the 12 MP camera, you have a TON of room to crop in.   You can find this one new for less than $100 and it will let in a lot more light.

Just a thought.


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## Mikey

I bought a photo cube last year from Harbor Freight for like $20. It is awesome, although a little large. i was using some 500 watt halogen work lights for lighting but those got really hot. So, the other day I was at the discount store and found desk lamps for $5 each. Bought a few daylight flourescents and the pics I took came out amazing. I did realize that placing the camera very close as I had done with the 500 watt bulbs yielded a darker picture, but moving the object back allowed more light to get in and the photos are bright and crystal clear. 

This pic was taken using two 13watt daylight flourescent bulbs in my $5 desk lamps.


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## Greg O'Sherwood

Good post Mikey. 
I am using daylight bulbs in clamp lights I bought at Harbor Freight for about $2 each.

You can occasionally find the daylight bulbs on sale for around $30 for four on amazon.


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## PenAffair

Bree said:


> I saw this tent which is not cheap but looks great to me.  The 12" tent would be perfect for taking pen PIX and would allow you to use natural light since it protects the pen from the wind.
> 
> http://www.ezcube.com/index.html
> 
> :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:



Sorry maybe I didn't explain properly, but the tents are mst of the problem with the wind. This one is much the same as what i have. Their light as a feather and have a big surface area - can anyone say "Sail"? So I'm afraid they contribute to the problem, not help it.

Russell.


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## PenAffair

Mikey said:


> So, the other day I was at the discount store and found desk lamps for $5 each. Bought a few daylight flourescents and the pics I took came out amazing. I did realize that placing the camera very close as I had done with the 500 watt bulbs yielded a darker picture, but moving the object back allowed more light to get in and the photos are bright and crystal clear.
> 
> This pic was taken using two 13watt daylight flourescent bulbs in my $5 desk lamps.



I'll have to check the wattage on mine when I get home, but this may be similar to my lamps already. As I said, maybe I'm being a bit picky. When I got home on the weekend, I'll have to try and take some pictures and post my areas of concern and see what people think.

Russell.


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## Mikey

Wow, that is a ton. The discount store has them for a 2 pack for $2.69 LOL! They are nothing special, just 13w flourescent spiral bulbs. 

I will have to look for the clamp lights as I think I may want one more lamp to use either in the rear or on top. It seems bright enough for me to see clear, but for whatever reason, my camera skills are nowhere near my meager turning ability. Though I probably have 1k photos I will never use because they came out too dark, bright, fuzzy, etc.


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## PenAffair

Mikey said:


> Wow, that is a ton. The discount store has them for a 2 pack for $2.69 LOL! They are nothing special, just 13w flourescent spiral bulbs.



You do have to be careful that you try and get lights with a temperature of 5500K to match daylight. Of course these days with a referenece card it's easy to adjust the white balance in post-processing if needed.

Russell.


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## Mikey

Well considering the fact that they are outside the white cube, the color really doesn't matter so much as the light I am sending in. Like I said before, I was using 500w halogen work lights. Those are nowhere near daylight, but they threw enough light through the white cube that my pics always came out fine and with the right colors.

JMHO.


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## Whaler

Here is a picture of my set up. The tent is 12X12 the reflectors are 8" diameter and hold 26 watt photo correct fluorescents. I take a meter reading off of a photo grey card and set the camera manually. The camera is a Nikon D70 with the Nikon 18 to 70 mm zoom lens. I have thought about a macro lens but haven't been able to justify the cost.


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## dgscott

How about bouncing some of that daylight from your windows? You can make bounce boards by covering cardboard with the dull side of aluminum foil, and getting someone you love to hold it reeeeaaalllll still (cheaper than a light stand!).
Doug


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## Sylvanite

What ISO setting are you using?  Low-light situations tend to yield pixelization, especially if you try to compensate with high ISO settings.  Long exposures are not ideal for digital sensors either.  Wide apertures will give you very short depth-of-field, which is not usually what you want in a pen photo.

Solution?  More light.  There's a reason professional studios have big bright lights.

I started out with 13w 5500k bulbs, and then upgraded to 23w 5500k bulbs with metal reflectors.  My photos are better, but I'm looking to upgrade again.   I'd really like to have studio lights with fabric reflectors (and maybe a couple of spots too).  Then I'd lose the light tent altogether.

I'd suggest trying clamp lights (or articulated desk lights) with 23w 5500k CFL bulbs.  They are fairly inexpensive and will give you good bang for the buck.

Regards,
Eric


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## PenAffair

I'm home and just checked. My bulbs are 26W, which is funny as the lamp they are in, both supplied with the tent, are max 22w 

I was looking at these couple of items as maybe's, but once again, is it worth the money is the question?

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/425W-softbox...ries?hash=item20ad8adf57&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/2000w-Photog...ries?hash=item20ad3ba048&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

Russell


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## glycerine

I would start with your camera settings.  Are you using manual or auto?  Make sure that your ISO is set to it's lowest (100-200).  A higher ISO will cause "grainier" pictures.  Then take a look at adjusting the shutter speed and aperture so that you get more light in.  
If you still don't get good pics, then I would definitely add a few more lights.  I have a fairly large homemade tent and I have 5 fixtures shining through it when I do my photos, one from the top, 2 from the sides on the front end and 2 from the sides on the back end.  Of course with a smaller tent, you may not have room for all of this...


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## PenAffair

glycerine said:


> I would start with your camera settings.  Are you using manual or auto?  Make sure that your ISO is set to it's lowest (100-200).  A higher ISO will cause "grainier" pictures.  Then take a look at adjusting the shutter speed and aperture so that you get more light in.



Yeah I've tried all of the best quality settings with little difference. The lighting is about the only thing left that I haven't varied I think. I'm just about to start setting up for some sample pictures, so I'll post again soon.

Russell.


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## PenAffair

OK well here's two sample pictures from under my light tent, with the 26W 5500K lights I have.

The first is the image as I'd normally process it and post. The second is a 100% crop of the centre of focus, saved as a 100% jpeg image. 

Other shots have come up worse than this, although without using the lights.

The exposure info is

Aperture: F16
Shutter Speed: 0.4 sec
ISO: 100
Lens: EF-S18-55mm, Focal Length 45mm
Camera sharpness set at default level of 3, no other compensation made.

What do you think, am I being too picky?

I'll try and find a calm spot outside and see if I can get a daylight shot.

Russell.


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## PenAffair

Oops, forgot to attach the images originally. They are now there.

These shots are with the tent, but outside, between the wind gusts. I'm not sure if they are better, or worse. I had to do some white balance adjustment, but the image looks a little flat still to me.

Changed settings are shutter speed 1/160, due to the extra light, and focal length 49mm, the rest is the same.

Russell.


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## dow

PenAffair said:


> OK well here's two sample pictures from under my light tent, with the 26W 5500K lights I have.
> 
> The first is the image as I'd normally process it and post. The second is a 100% crop of the centre of focus, saved as a 100% jpeg image.
> 
> Other shots have come up worse than this, although without using the lights.
> 
> The exposure info is
> 
> Aperture: F16
> Shutter Speed: 0.4 sec
> ISO: 100
> Lens: EF-S18-55mm, Focal Length 45mm
> Camera sharpness set at default level of 3, no other compensation made.
> 
> What do you think, am I being too picky?
> 
> I'll try and find a calm spot outside and see if I can get a daylight shot.
> 
> Russell.



Hey Russell,

A couple of things come to mind (with a disclaimer: I'm not a professional.  I'm not even that good of an amateur ).

First, are you using a flash with your light tent?  I'm guessing that with your slow shutter speed you aren't.

Which brings me to question two:

Why are you shooting at f/16?  A faster aperture will let more light in, which will give you a faster shutter speed.  The only down side to this change is a shallower depth of field.  You'll have to play with that to determine whether it makes a significant difference with your shots or not.  

Third, are you shooting in RAW format, or jpg?  I'd recommend shooting with RAW if you're not.  The canon DPP software that came with your camera will let you do a lot of stuff if you shoot RAW, and it's non destructive, meaning that you can mess around with your shot and then reset it all to play with other effects (I'm pretty sure it ships with the 450D, it does with the XXD and XD lines).  If you don't have this software, you can download it from Canon's website.

Fourth, have you tried it without applying the in-camera sharpening?  I shoot a 20D, and don't do ANY in-camera processing other than AWB.  I get pretty good shots when I do the rest of it right.

Fifth, I'd agree with the whoever mentioned going with a prime lens.  Sure, you can spend the bucks on the 60mm macro, but that's a big chunk of change just to try it.  You can get the 50mm f/1.8 for under $100 US, and if you don't like it, you can get most or maybe all of your money back when you sell it.  Also, if you DO decide to go with a macro lens, take a look at the 100mm f/2.8 USM macro.  That's what I've got, and not only is it a great macro lens, it's also a dandy telephoto.  They've got a new one out with IS, but it's gobs more than I paid a year ago for mine.  Another plus for the 100mm is that it will work on any EOS camera, whereas the 60mm is an EF-S mount, so you're limited to crop cameras with it (might be an important consideraton if you ever decided to sell it or to go full frame).

Well, I've rambled along long enough here.  Hope some of this helps.

Dow

Oh yeah, take a look at http://photography-on-the.net/forum/index.php.  There are folks over there who've forgotten more about shooting canon cameras than folks like me will ever learn :biggrin:


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## PenAffair

Thanks Dow,

1. Nope, no flash. Don't like the harsh shadows, or investing in a better one.

2. Trying to keep DOF max without losing image quality. I've read a few articles that say F8-F11 is best fr resolution, but I tried F11 first and noticed some fuzziness.

3. Yup, always RAW and using DPP.

4. No, I haven't tried. Several of the 450D reviews I read before purchase said sharpening was needed for the best images. May be worth a try without though.

5. No I haven't considered a prime. I like Macro photography of other things besides pen, which is probably more my driver than the pens  Given I'm not looking for wide apertures anyway, I'm not sure whether it'd actually be of any benefit. I'll look into it a bit more.

The EF 50mm F1.8 II best price is AUS$125 .
The EF-S 60MM Macro USM best price is AUS$625
The EF 100M F2.8 Macro USM best price is AUS$799

You're right, the 100mm is probably better value at only $174 more, but realistically, I'm probably pushed to justify more than $400-$500 for a lens, which I guess gives me a bit of a dilemma.

Russell.


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## dennisg

>>4. No, I haven't tried. Several of the 450D reviews I read before purchase said sharpening was needed for the best images. May be worth a try without though.<<

Try experimenting with sharpening in post processing. Let your desk top computer do the heavy work not the little one in the camera.


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## dow

Now why couldn't I have said it that way... it makes more sense like that.  Thanks Dennis!
:biggrin:

Russell, you might look at the used market. One thing about camera equipment, most used stuff that I've seen is very lightly used.  I don't know if there's a Craig's List or equivalent on your side of the world or not, but keep an eye out.  Camera people seem to get caught up in the "better-bigger-newer-faster-slicker-gotta-have-it-now" thing and then end up having to sell because nobody told them that if they spent all their money they'd be broke.  Another place you might try is http://www.keh.com.  They ship internationally, althought I don't know if that's cost-effective for you or not, but they've got gobs of used lenses, both from Canon and the third party guys, and they've got a stellar reputation.  They've got one in LN- condition right now for about $569 ($629 AU): http://tinyurl.com/yh7e35y

I've almost bought a lens from them on two different occasions, but ended up buying from an individual instead.


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## stolicky

I have the XS (1000d) and find that I have taken decent shots with the kit lens and also the 50 1.4.  Make sure you adjust the white balance.  No matter which lens I use, I usually find myself sharpening up the pics after wards.  That's it though.

A couple of things I didn't see, or may have missed:

Are you using a tripod?
Are you using either a shutter release remote or the 2-second delayed shutter?  Manually pressing the shutter release can impact picture quality.


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## jleiwig

stolicky said:


> Are you using either a shutter release remote or the 2-second delayed shutter? Manually pressing the shutter release can impact picture quality.


 
This was my biggest problem.  The camera had a slight movement due to pressing the button down, remote..no problems!


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## PenAffair

dow said:


> Another place you might try is http://www.keh.com.  They ship internationally, althought I don't know if that's cost-effective for you or not, but they've got gobs of used lenses, both from Canon and the third party guys, and they've got a stellar reputation.  They've got one in LN- condition right now for about $569 ($629 AU): http://tinyurl.com/yh7e35y
> 
> I've almost bought a lens from them on two different occasions, but ended up buying from an individual instead.



Looks interesting. A 60mm is all I see there currently, for a not bad price. Postage could add up to another $50-$100 though I suspect. It does get expensive when there's weight or volume involved.

Russell.


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## PenAffair

stolicky said:


> A couple of things I didn't see, or may have missed:
> 
> Are you using a tripod?
> Are you using either a shutter release remote or the 2-second delayed shutter?  Manually pressing the shutter release can impact picture quality.



Yup, Velbon Tripod, Mirror-lockup engaged, and 2 second timer.

Russell.


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## bitshird

Russell, the one thing I noticed was a difference in the color of the background, which leads me to think your white balance is a bit off or you're using auto white ballance, or possibly a difference in exposure, actually ad the sensor, your camera looks nice reflected in the one center band shot:biggrin::wink:


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## glycerine

PenAffair said:


> 1. Nope, no flash. Don't like the harsh shadows, or investing in a better one.
> 
> 2. Trying to keep DOF max without losing image quality. I've read a few articles that say F8-F11 is best fr resolution, but I tried F11 first and noticed some fuzziness.


 
Have you used a diffuser of any kind with your flash? I use Gary Fong's "Puffer". Works wonderfully. And then if you still get shadows that you don't like, set the pen on top of a sheet of plexiglass (raised up a few inches) so that the shadows will be drowned out by the rest of the lighting.
Also, maybe try overexposing and then backing it back down in Photoshop or whatever software you have. You'll get more light in for the details, but can tone it down in your post processing.


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## PenAffair

No I haven't used a diffuser, but it's very rare I use a flash at all. I always try for natural lighting, or the lamps through the tent.

Russell.


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