# Some Have Difficulty Understanding



## W.Y. (Nov 4, 2011)

. . why  I  cannot get much for my turnings in my particular area  . This vase is displayed for sale in a local coffee shop and the price tag on it is $40.00.  Last week there was one for $25.00 with a much nicer feature ring and is now sold . This one will likely be there much longer  because it will be considered overpriced from  residents of the area. 

No, it is not one of mine at all . It was made by another local woodworker  and I got permission to take the picture  this afternoon. 

I tried to accurately count the number of pieces in it and came up with 414 but I believe I missed some with his production  of the feature ring . It has a beautiful hard film finish . Probably lacquer or polyurethane. It is approx 12" tall and about 6" diameter at the widest point. 

From all the segmented  bowls and vessels I have made myself, this is about the going price around  here. . It is either sell it or give it away or keep it forever. 

When I was doing the craft sale scene for many years  it looked like I was doing very well when bringing home $300.00 to $350.00  from a sale  but in order to do that I had to have two to three tables packed full of all kinds of turnings  and other forms of woodworking and sell in volume at very low prices. 
Doing production turning  got me into basically a full time job situation and when figuring ALL expenses , it was actually costing me money to do it. I have been retired for about 15 years and just don't need  a full time job that operates at a loss . 

Then when I started running across ones that were selling pens  for just the price of the kits and bowls for $5.00 I figured it was time to slow down and  just do it  for gifts for friends and relatives and to give away to charities and local fund raising auctions. 

I still  immensely enjoy all forms of woodworking but now do it just when I feel like it and at a more leisurely pace  rather than having to make hundreds of items  just to keep up to  inventory  for upcoming sales. 

Only ones that have actually experienced this can truly appreciate what I am saying but hopefully this will shed some light on ones that have  found it difficult to understand.


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## seamus7227 (Nov 4, 2011)

well, first of all, the guy selling this piece is crazy. He might as well give it away at that price. I would think a piece like that would go for well over 100-200. Just because his prices are that low doesnt mean you cant compete, just find that niche with your design that sets your work apart from his and price it where you think it will sell! You need to take more pride in your work and people need to realize that this stuff takes time and talent and If they dont like it then they can try to go get the same thing at wally world. this is no different than the people that would rather buy a cheap bic pen than spend (on a low end, $30 for a pen).


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## cnccutter (Nov 4, 2011)

Bill I am astounded that the pot is only 40 bucks. I would guess there are a lot of hours invested in the making of it and I don't think it can be make quick enough to even get to minimum wage at that price.

I have said for a long time that we have become a Walmart society and expect everything to be sold at a cheap price. 

I have the same trubles in my area about people not wanting to pay a fair price for a quality product. I dont see it changing any time soon. I have stopped doing any craft fairs because to this idea that thing are cheap there. 

Erik


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## steeler fan1 (Nov 4, 2011)

William,

Thanks for the very informative post. When I first started doing turnings I had the idea that I would venture into the sales arena. Having been turning for awhile now, reading posts like this and many others like yours I concur. Beleive I'll just continue making things for gift and giveaways. If someone request I make a custom project  then I'll charge appropriately, otherwise it will stay a very enjoyable hobby.

Carl


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## drGeek (Nov 4, 2011)

It would be hard to buy the wood for forty bucks!!!


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## ed4copies (Nov 4, 2011)

William, that piece is certainly a showpiece of workmanship.

Knowing absolutely NOTHING about your town, I can only generalize.  I would not try to sell anything at a coffee shop, in MY town.  They sit all day drinking the "bottomless cup" for $1, then decide whether a quarter is too large a tip.  

Is there a jewelry store, or a fine dining restaurant in or NEAR there??  

Raise the price to $150 or more and see if one of them will display it.

FWIW!!!
Respectfully suggested,
Ed


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## W.Y. (Nov 4, 2011)

ed4copies said:


> William, that piece is certainly a showpiece of workmanship.
> 
> Knowing absolutely NOTHING about your town, I can only generalize.  I would not try to sell anything at a coffee shop, in MY town.  They sit all day drinking the "bottomless cup" for $1, then decide whether a quarter is too large a tip.
> 
> ...



Ed.
As stated , it is not my piece of work and most places want at least 40% commission for placing articles.

I knew a lot would not understand the situation and I have heard so many times over the years about people saying double or tripple the price and it would sell. Not a chance around here. Tried it many times .  It only makes people avoid your display like the plague once they have seen prices that they think are exagerated  (even if thet are not).

It is like real estate . Location . . . location . ..  location.

I know some that do real well with their sales in areas where there are lots of  good wage earners.

In my area here  in the Rocky mountains  all we have is two saw mills and a small brewery and some fruit farmers. Can pick out at least a dozen stores on the only four block long  main street in town at any given time. Many take their place and they too are gone within three or four months.


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## ed4copies (Nov 4, 2011)

I certainly believe you.

We did most of our selling in Chicago--50 miles away, but a completely different financial setting.  We were lucky to be so near it.


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## Rob73 (Nov 4, 2011)

That's less than a carton of smokes here.  Way to cheap.


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## W.Y. (Nov 4, 2011)

Rob73 said:


> That's less than a carton of smokes here.  Way to cheap.



That low for a carton of smokes ?      That's only 4 packs here. 


I don't smoke but three of my sons do and they have been complaing about a carton being around $80.00 here in Canada.

I quit when they got over $1.00 a pack many moons ago :wink:.


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## jaywood1207 (Nov 5, 2011)

Location doesn't matter.  We have this thing called the internet where you can reach the people willing to pay what it is worth and websites are very cheap.


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## robutacion (Nov 5, 2011)

William,

We know each other from Internet forums wood turning related for some time now, and I'm disappointed to hear that you did get caught out in the very wrong perception that turning plenty of stuff will make you money.

I remember well, when you finished some shows and come home over the moon with the amount of money you had "grossed", that is a big trap that many of us learn the hard way...!

I wonder then, how many hours of sleep and rest you could have had in the 7 days week, when you so proudly showed us all the items you had just finished for the next show, in many cases, just finished with some hours to spare.  I kept wonder, how long would take for you to feel that it was becoming a damn crazy full time job, when you are retired and suppose to enjoy your free time and not just getting another job, that was just inevitable, sorry.

The pleasure of turning wood, totally fades away in situations like yours and as yourself admitted, in the end of the day, and with all factors taking into consideration, you were losing money, contrary to what you always thought and that is no good, my friend.

I have been there done that, even though I never done shows but had plenty of shops/places where my items were displayed on commission.  Just the amount of fuel and time I spend everyone week going through them all, was hardly covered by any sales much less any of the materials used, the labor and or any profit...!

I love my wood turnings but, the day I feel that is becoming a job, I will stop immediately, absolutely no questions about it.  

I have also discovered that, and this was quite a surprise to me that, when I just finished a piece, I would put a high value on it, either because was still fresh in my mind, all time and work involved creating it or just because I was feeling attached to my last creation...!

Bringing home all those boxes full of my turned pieces I had displayed everywhere, after I had enough of trying to cover at least my expenses, creating them, I filled the house with them, every corner, crevasse, shelve, either above of at floor level, the place was looking more a display shop that a house where we live in...!

But what I discovered was that, looking at those pieces everyday, they become not so important, and most certainly not with the high value I had put on them, just after finish them.  People start to come around and show an interest/curiosity about at least one of the pieces and becoming aware of that, I made sure that, that piece was rapped/bagged and in their hands as a "gift" as they would leave.

It gives me great satisfaction to have something done that people feel interested for, without any obligations of any kind and all of a certain, all those boxes of stuff started to be put into good use, in my view anyway...!

I started to enjoy to take my time to turn my stuff, bit by bit with no pressure of needing it finished unless, is a special order which I get one every so often.  

It is important to give to younger/new turners, a real and correct perspective of what wood turning is all about, those with the intention to get involved with wood-turning just for the money side of it, may need to reconsider seriously and ask to themselves, if they want just to become an statistic on having all the their priorities upside-down...!

However, I would recommend wood-turning pleasures and experiences to anyone that is prepare and willing to have a relaxing pastime /hoby...!:wink:

Well William, you invested lots of money in your wood-turning toys so, play with them and enjoy your time away from those stresses and deadlines of the pass...!

Best of luck...!

Cheers
George


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## dankc908 (Nov 5, 2011)

William -

I totally agree with what you are saying.  Due to some medical issues (like a knee replacement) we have quit doing the craft show scene.  I've seen prices so low that it wouldn't make any sense to even try to return to the craft shows and compete.  I am much happier with my 'turning' and 'scrolling' since making the same decision you did.  Gifts for family and friends is great but I am glad to return from 'production mode' to my truly enjoyable *hobbies*!  Like you, I now do what I want and like.

Dan


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## dexter0606 (Nov 5, 2011)

Just because a piece doesn't sell right away doesn't necesarilly mean that it's priced too high. Hang on to it and someday it will find the right person.
Bowls and vase woodturnings are directed at a smaller group of would be customers in my opinion. Craft shows that sell everything from soup to nuts are not the places to be showing this stuff


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## seamus7227 (Nov 5, 2011)

dexter0606 said:


> Just because a piece doesn't sell right away doesn't necesarilly mean that it's priced too high. Hang on to it and someday it will find the right person.
> Bowls and vase woodturnings are directed at a smaller group of would be customers in my opinion. Craft shows that sell everything from soup to nuts are not the places to be showing this stuff



I couldnt agree with this comment more! Going to a craft show is like going to a garage sale in my opinion. People want stuff for dirt cheap


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## philb (Nov 5, 2011)

Id be looking for at least $200 for that, and id rather have it up for more!

The man hours in a piece like that are ridiculous, at $40 hes getting about £2/hr


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## JohnU (Nov 5, 2011)

Thats a beautiful vase deserving a lot more than $40.  People have no idea what time invested is. A couple years ago I was asked to make some pens by people at work for Christmas gifts.  Cigar wood segmented pens were their choice. After making about 15 of them with a price of $10 per pen ( giving my friends a price break and being nice) I had one person tell me they would buy some but I'm too expensive.  I gave up selling to them after that.


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## Rick_G (Nov 5, 2011)

William O Young said:


> It is like real estate . Location . . . location . ..  location.



I think you said it all right there.  I live in a small town of 900 mostly retired or working for low wages on the farms in the area.  After mortgage/rent, utilities and food there just isn't the disposable income for "pretty" stuff.  Like you I have given up on pushing the sales and just make things for me, or as a gift to someone I like.  
The VON nurses for example that are looking after the wife as the infection from her latest surgery heals will each get one along with my business card.  Occasionally someone sees one I have made for someone else and comes to me and I sell them one.


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## bitshird (Nov 5, 2011)

William, the part of Tennessee I live in is rather like your situation, although it's getting better, Fortunately we have a couple of monied areas not too far away, But also, I would recommend trying and selling some of your items on Etsy, it's inexpensive, and when I was selling pens there, I was able to get a better price than I could locally, a far better price. Around here the best I could do at local shows was 30 or 40 dollars for a Sierra pen on Etsy I was able to get 50 and better. Your bowls are beautiful, and I think would sell for considerably more than you are or were getting Locally, And with your skill and talent, you should be compensated. but it's tough when you live in an area that most of the money has to go for vital necessities and little or nothing for art work.
I'm just glad to see you posting here again. I've been lurking a lot more on woodworking friends, lately, Nice bunch of folks!!!


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## W.Y. (Nov 5, 2011)

bitshird said:


> William, the part of Tennessee I live in is rather like your situation, although it's getting better, Fortunately we have a couple of monied areas not too far away, But also, I would recommend trying and selling some of your items on Etsy, it's inexpensive, and when I was selling pens there, I was able to get a better price than I could locally, a far better price. Around here the best I could do at local shows was 30 or 40 dollars for a Sierra pen on Etsy I was able to get 50 and better. Your bowls are beautiful, and I think would sell for considerably more than you are or were getting Locally, And with your skill and talent, you should be compensated. but it's tough when you live in an area that most of the money has to go for vital necessities and little or nothing for art work.
> I'm just glad to see you posting here again. I've been lurking a lot more on woodworking friends, lately, Nice bunch of folks!!!



Thanks Ken.
Now that I am out of high production mode and my lungs are thanking me for it in spite of overkill on dust collection apparatus,  I have  time to enjoy life more  and check out some of the sites I have been a member of for the last ten or fifteen years but never had time to participate much .

I have  tried  etsy a couple times as well as a sales site of my own . I found it so time consuming  puting in 75 to a 100 photos and managing my space there that for me it wasn't worth the three or four  sales a year  when considering the shipping and paypal and all that was required.
I do understand that some have good luck with etsy but I was not one of them. Lots of way under priced stuff in there too .  I only tried for a year and a half at one time  and gave up and then gave it ago for a year at another time. Perhaps a person has to be in there longer than that for best results and keep updating  offerings to make it more attractive. 

My hat is off to ones that have great success there as well as ones that live in higher populated  areas where there are good wage earners that can afford to buy what us woodworkers have to offer at fair and reasonable prices. 

I have actually sold off  nearly all my many hundreds of backup stock items in 13 consecutive  Saturday craft sales just before Christmas last year .What didn't sell , I gave away.  It is rather nice to just go out in the shop now whenever I feel like it and make gifts for friends and relatives and  local charities . :wink:

  What amazes me at those blind auctions some of us donate to  is how high some will bid. A couple years ago I put three small juniper bowls in a fund raising auction for an addition to our local village  community center.  . They were  only about 4" diameter and would be lucky to bring five bucks each at a craft sale but they went for $35.00 each at the auction.


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## W.Y. (Nov 5, 2011)

Rick_G said:


> William O Young said:
> 
> 
> > It is like real estate . Location . . . location . ..  location.
> ...




Yes, you do understand the situation Rick.

Exactly the way it is here  with the retirement situation. . The vast majority of town people here are retirees that come from all over Canada because  it is one of the most beautiful locations in BC with moderate temperature and fantastic scenery with valleys surrounded by mountains. (Yes they are snow capped already but still look beautiful) :wink:
The orchard farmers cannot even find locals young enough to work for minimum wage to pick their cherries, peaches, apples, pears etc.  They hire people from Mexico or Quebec  or wherever they can get cheap labour and some even pay for their transportation here  (one way)  so the fruit doesn't rot on the tree. That results in quite an expense for the farmers and leaves them little to spend on our woodworking items and things that they can very well do without. 
Feel sorry for the ones that come so far to work for minimum wage  too because they have to save up enough from their earnings  in order to get back home.


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## tim self (Nov 5, 2011)

I understand exactly what you mean.  There is absolutely no industry in my town and most are farmer/ranchers, minimum wage or travel out of town to work.  A piece like that properly priced would take forever to sell and at that price someone would think it's imported.  Screwed both ways IMO.


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## Smitty37 (Nov 5, 2011)

*Time spent is not a factor*

Guys and gals how much time and effort you spend making something has little to do with how much it will sell for UNLESS you are taking a specific custom order.   

Assume that your customers are a lot like yourself, they want to get the best value for their dollar and they don't care if you make a profit or not.  Nor should they.  

If you sell your pens at the local thrift shop, they'll bring thrift shop prices.  That isn't the fault of the buyers,  if they had lots of money they'd be shopping elsewhere.  If you are furtunate enough to live in an area where there is an 'artsy' crowd and you get an upscale boutique to carry your pens you'll get better prices.  From what I just read somewhere if you live in China where a top notch fountain pen is a status symbol you'd be happy as a pig in mud because they pay big money for them.

If you can make a pen in 10 minutes and it looks custom and you can get to the right venue where either collectors or status seekers (often neuveau rich) gather, you can probably sell it for big bucks.  Just because you are selling it there.  Stand on the street corner with a tin cup and a hat full of your pens and you'll get a lot of 100 cent notes.

It is location and venue.  When I was in real estate I had a year when I had 13 sales and made $9000.  A friend who sold real estate in a different location had the same number of sales and made $85,000.  We both sold what was on the market for the going prices.  I was in a small town/rural area in the north east - she was in a resort area about 120 miles away and resort home sales were booming.


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## W.Y. (Nov 5, 2011)

> It is location and venue. When I was in real estate I had a year when I had 13 sales and made $9000. A friend who sold real estate in a different location had the same number of sales and made $85,000. We both sold what was on the market for the going prices. I was in a small town/rural area in the north east - she was in a resort area about 120 miles away and resort home sales were booming.



Exactly .:wink:

Location and venue are what makes it work. Ones that are not close enough to those two factors and are far enough away  to make it not  practical to travel  to better areas   of sales will experience what many of us have  gone through  and many more will . .

It is the pleasure and satisfying aspect of it that makes us to want to keep  making things in our shops.

I was fortunate about 6 or 8  years ago when the Canadian dollar was very low (around 75 cents) against the US dollar. We had American tourists coming up north here in droves and bought 75 % of what I was making . I even had European  toursts coming through here with their big rented motor homes grabbing up some of my stuff that was priced  way higher than I can get now. It was a bargain for them with their strong dollar.  I could hardly keep up to production. I was actually making money back then and it covered all the  shop expenses including the price of all the tools I bought. In recent years with the dollar  about par we seldom ever  see a US vehicle  north of the border anymore. 
Now that I still have most of those tools  I don't want to put them into heavy production anymore to sell things at a loss due to the downturn in the economy . With proper care and maintenance they will probably last as long as I will and I will still have the pleasure of using them whenever I feel like it. 

Its a wonderful hobby. Some make money with it, some break even and some loose . If a person can make a buck along the way , more power to them  because of all the thousands  of different  kinds of hobbies that people embark on  many can well afford it and don't care how much it costs simply because they enjoy doing it . They are not interestied in selling anything to recoup expenses.  It is the ones that really can't afford to keep loosing money on it after considering ALL expenses that need to re-think how far they want to go with it.


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## Ironwood (Nov 5, 2011)

Rob73 said:


> That's less than a carton of smokes here. Way to cheap.


 
I sell packets of 50 cigarettes in my shop for $28.60, of that the government gets the lions share with their taxes.

William, here in Australia there are small towns similar to how yours is The people there would also baulk at paying what they would consider high prices.
Where I live, we are in a high income area, due to being close to the Coal mining areas.  But the population is to a large extent transient. They cant see the point in buying (for example) a handcrafted dining table made of local timber for $2500 when they can go to Super A Mart and get a Chinese import for $250. Its no wonder our landfills are overflowing.


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## W.Y. (Nov 5, 2011)

Ironwood said:


> Rob73 said:
> 
> 
> > That's less than a carton of smokes here. Way to cheap.
> ...



We have basically the same thing here except it is called WalMart.:wink:


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## Haynie (Nov 5, 2011)

It sounds like you might have rediscovered the reason you started woodworking to begin with.  I have never sold a piece I built and not sure I care if I ever do.  On the other hand I had flirted with making a hobby into a money making venture.  I love doing darkroom work.  I decided I wanted to get paid to do darkroom work.  I got a job in a darkroom where I was the sole printer.  I was more than good too, but that was not enough.  My love for the hobby disappeared and I gave myself an ulcer.  When I left the darkroom JOB I rediscovered the pleasure of the HOBBY.


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## Smitty37 (Nov 5, 2011)

*Hmmmm*

Love your job and you never work a day in your life.  I felt that way about mine for 28 of the 32 years I held it.

On the other hand, when I first started turning I was making pens so fast I wondered how I'd ever get rid of them all.  You run out of places to give them away long before you run out of pens.  I imagine bowns, vases and other items are about the same.  To get really good at making them you need to make a few....then you need to get rid of them or start a collection of things you made.


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