# Tap and Die Advise



## greenchicken (Apr 16, 2012)

So I am now inspired to attempt a kitless pen.  I am overwhelmed by the choice of tape & die sets.

Anyone care to share their opinions of which set I should buy?


----------



## mredburn (Apr 16, 2012)

Are you asking about the individual sets we use on pens or the sets that have all the common sizes that dont fit pen amking well.  THe reason we use matched sizes and not the generic 40 piece ets you buy in a store is pen threads are usually finer than the standard sets have in them. And fountain pen feeds are specialty sizes.  YOu can use a standard set if your going to use it around the house for other things than pen making and you can make pens with it just with coarse threads.  Some choose to go that route.   There are several threads that recomend which sizes are prefered for pen making if you search for them.


----------



## greenchicken (Apr 16, 2012)

Well then... I glad I asked.  I would like to explore kit-less pen making so I guess one of those 40-pcs sets is not for me.  

I figure I need one set for the cap and body and one set for the tip and body.  

What would recommend I buy for my first attempt?


----------



## mredburn (Apr 16, 2012)

What kind of pens do you want to make? Roller ball or fountain pens, click?  The roller ball and fountain pens for the caps, start with m12 unless you want a fatter pen than 14mm (9/16) od.   I would get a single point tap and die in 12mm and wait to see if you need the triple lead sets. The triple lead sets are 10 times the cost. the nose cone or front section I like 10 x .75 but several others prefer 9 x .75 or 9 x 1  your choice. If your going to make fountain pens you will have to decide whether you will rob kits of the pieces and get taps toamtch their pieces or if you will buy from a vendor and need thier propiatary sized taps.


----------



## greenchicken (Apr 16, 2012)

Thanks you.  If there a specific manufacturer and or supplier you recommend I buy these parts from?


----------



## mredburn (Apr 16, 2012)

Not really. Indy Pen dance carries some of them, misc metric, triple tap  and Bock, I carry the triple thread taps and Miester nib as well.  Classic Nib carries Bock, Richard Greenwald may have some.
 Some other links for tap and dies
Victor Machinery - Metalworking tools and supplies
Enco - Guaranteed Lowest Prices on Machinery, Tools and Shop Supplies

 also check ebay.


----------



## yort81 (Apr 16, 2012)

I too would love to learn this art... But I must confess... I am totally ignorant on taps and dies.... And when to use what when etc.  Are there any videos on you tube or any pdf's with pictures and info to learn from?

Trou


----------



## greenchicken (Apr 16, 2012)

OK, forgive all the questions...but

is m12 all the information?  That covers both the diameter and the thread size?


----------



## mredburn (Apr 16, 2012)

M12 is- metric- or 12mm, I like the m1`2 x .75 The .75 is the thread pitch. In metric threads thats the distance from point to point. Thread pitch in inches (imperial) is number of threads per inch. 16 tpi - 16 threads per inch.

Ask away thats the way you learn.... and keep from buying stuff you dont need.:biggrin:


----------



## rherrell (Apr 16, 2012)

Don't get the hexagon shaped ones, get the 1" o.d. round ones so you can put them in a die holder. LMS makes a great little die holder at a fair price....I have two of them!:biggrin::wink:


----------



## lorbay (Apr 16, 2012)

rherrell said:


> Don't get the hexagon shaped ones, get the 1" o.d. round ones so you can put them in a die holder. LMS makes a great little die holder at a fair price....I have two of them!:biggrin::wink:


  Stands for Little Machine Shop for the newbies.
Lin.


----------



## greenchicken (Apr 16, 2012)

Something like this?

Enco - Guaranteed Lowest Prices on Machinery, Tools and Shop Supplies


----------



## TerryDowning (Apr 16, 2012)

greenchicken said:


> Something like this?
> 
> Enco - Guaranteed Lowest Prices on Machinery, Tools and Shop Supplies



Is an example of what NOT to get.

You want round dies. Generally better quality and can be used with die holders.

A die holder ensures accuracy of the threads and makes sure they are not crooked on the cylinder. Very easy to do with a standard hand held die holder.  Trust me, I know.

I made my own die holder.  Search Die Holders on this site for several examples.


----------



## greenchicken (Apr 16, 2012)

OK, do you have a link to a set you would buy?


----------



## TerryDowning (Apr 16, 2012)

Fortunately, I have a set of standard 1" round dies in the normal set sizes.

If you are just starting out and do not currently have taps and dies (and therefore no use for them other than pen making at present) It may be better to purchase the finer threads 1 or 2 at a time to get the feel for what you are doing and whether you want to continue or not.

My amazon wish list has the following sizes from victor machinery through amazon
for caps
12 mm x 0.75 Die $9.90 
12 mm x 0.75 Plug Tap $9.60
for section 
10 mm x 0.75 Die $8.50 
10 mm X 0.75 Plug Tap $12.90
Alternate
10 mm X 0.50 Die $9.50
10 mm X 0.50 plug tap $6.50
for roller ball nose cone to section
8 mm x 0.5 die $9.50
8 mm x 0.5 plug tap $4.50

If doing fountain pens, you will need to search for custom taps to fit the numerous converters and what not by manufacturer.  I don't do fountain pens so I'm no help here.

I already own several tap handles, and a drill chuck can be used for tapping on the lathe.
as stated, I made my own die holder for cutting threads.

Hope this clarifies/helps a bit, others may chime in with differing opinions/ideas, that's what a forum is all about. Keep in mind, I'm a relative newcomer to componentless pen making. Heed the advise of those more experienced than I.

Currently I use the following with decent results

for cap to body
1/2" x 20 or 7/16" x 20

for sections to pen body
7/16" x 20, 3/8" x 24, or 5/16" x 2? I can't remeber if it's 24 or 28?

for rollerball nosecones to section 
1/4" x 2? or 5/16" x 2?
I may try a fine thread (don't know the TPI off the top of my head) 3/16" in the future

Terry


----------



## greenchicken (Apr 16, 2012)

Thanks I am searching Amazon right now and I can only find 12mm x 1.75


----------



## TerryDowning (Apr 16, 2012)

sorry, these are on victornet.com
They're just on my amazon wish list (for friends and family)
Dies Metric High Speed Round Adjustable Dies - millimeter sizes.
Taps Metric Taps - Taper, Plug, Bottoming, and Spiral Point - millimeter sizes. plug taps are desired.  Bottom taps can be difficult to start, taper taps, can take a lot of tube to get the threads to the desired depth of cut, the plug tap is a good compromise between the two.


----------



## wizard (Apr 16, 2012)

If you are determined to get everything as a set you might want to look at this:
Maryland Metrics: 110 PC. TAP & DIE SET


----------



## chriselle (Apr 16, 2012)

Terry,
   What nose cones are you referring to?  Right now I'm exploring which nose cone to use for my kitless front sections.  




TerryDowning said:


> Fortunately, I have a set of standard 1" round dies in the normal set sizes.
> 
> If you are just starting out and do not currently have taps and dies (and therefore no use for them other than pen making at present) It may be better to purchase the finer threads 1 or 2 at a time to get the feel for what you are doing and whether you want to continue or not.
> 
> ...


----------



## mredburn (Apr 16, 2012)

For  a roller ball nose cone, I drill a 1/4 hole (.250) for the refill,  then cut a tennon down to apx .300 drill a brass piece to match and cut the outside threads with an 8mm x1. A 5/16-24 fine thread tap would work as well.  I can use this setup inside a 10mm cap thread. If you use 12mm cap threads you could make the brass insert either 9mm or 10mm depending on your design.  by the way here is a tap guide for both metric and imperial 
Tap Size Chart


----------



## chriselle (Apr 16, 2012)

Mike you are far too ambitious for me..:wink: I just want something simple that's already plated like Brian Gray's rollerball nose cones.

Rollerballs - edisonpenco's Photos | SmugMug


----------



## watch_art (Apr 16, 2012)

I have several sets for three different size pens.

My smallest ones use a 1/2" x 28tpi for cap to barrel.
Section to barrel is 10mmx1, but I'm going to get a 10mmx.75, which is something like 32tpi.  The finer threads cut so much easier than the coarser ones, from my experience, especially when threading PR, which most people seem not to like for kitless pens.

These are two pens made with those taps/dies.  The blue has a #5 Bock nib, the dark purple a #6 Jowo nib.  If you want to do full custom like this, a tap for each different nib unit is necessary.  They're each $35-40 and can be found at a couple different places.  

This page has many of these specialty taps listed.
silverpenparts.com - TOOLS - Taps and dies

Classic nib has them as well:
CLASSIC NIB - FEEDS

Small/Medium






The next size up uses larger threads for barrel to cap.
This one is comparable in size to a MB 146.
9/16" x 28tpi.  I would never go lower than 28tpi for cap to barrel threads as I think it's just too coarse.  People don't like sharp threads under their fingers.  I know I don't.  
It uses 11mmx.75 tap and die for section to barrel threading.  Bigger pen - so more meat around the converter.

Large pen.





Last, my oversize, MB 149 size.     Or bigger...
I use 5/8" x 28tpi for cap to barrel threads, and 12mmx.75 for section to barrel.  Lots of meat there.  On these bigger ones I can even run a tap through the section so it will accept a Pelikan M1000 nib unit.  I haven't done one of those yet, I've got so many orders to fill I can't really play around much.  which is a good thing!


----------



## greenchicken (Apr 17, 2012)

Well I guess for now I will put this adventure on hold.  Definitely seems to be a much large start-up investment that I expect.


----------



## TerryDowning (Apr 17, 2012)

greenchicken said:


> Well I guess for now I will put this adventure on hold.  Definitely seems to be a much large start-up investment that I expect.



I was fortunate and had much of the tooling (Taps and Dies mostly) already.  I have not yet purchased the metric ones.  I figure I can practice with what I have and get the process/technique down first.


----------



## TerryDowning (Apr 17, 2012)

Like Mike,

I make my own nose cones.  What the heck kitless means no kit parts right??

I have included the nose cone right onto the section as I build the section. I started that way, one less piece to build and less threading to do.

Terry



chriselle said:


> Terry,
> What nose cones are you referring to?  Right now I'm exploring which nose cone to use for my kitless front sections.
> 
> 
> ...


----------

