# knife question



## glycerine (Jan 10, 2011)

Are knife blades normally made from a certain type of steel, or could I take a piece of sheet metal from the local hardware store and cut/sharpen to make a knife???


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## Drstrangefart (Jan 10, 2011)

Most knives are made from stainless steel. You CAN make your own out of sheet metal, but you gotta temper it. The fast and dirty way to temper is heating it until it's good and glowing. Use one of those mechanic's magnet-on-a-stick deals to touch the glowing steel. If it's no longer ferrous, it's ready to be dropped in oil or water, whatever you wanna temper it with. Use some plate steel and an angle grinder to make the blade. Just cut it to shape and temper. It may not be the greatest knife ever made, but I've used the process and it works. Forged my own mini skews with the big 18 inch galvanized spikes they sell at home depot. Hold a respectable edge and sharpen easily.


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## KenV (Jan 10, 2011)

Yes you can -- but it will not hold an edge (or hold it well).   Sharp steels that hold edges are special steels with heat treatment.  High Carbon Steel is the most traditional and is still common for many conventional uses with sharp edges (knives, plane blades, chisels, etc) but more exotic alloys and heat treat are used also.

Your hardware store may have "spring steel" or "Oil Hardening Steel" or you may need to order it.

The old "Cement Nails" have some good carbon steel that you can work with.   There are several good internet sources on hardening and tempering high carbon steel.  

Mystery metal from the Home Depot has little chance of doing anything but being a blundt instrument.


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## ThomJ (Jan 10, 2011)

Last one Imade (years ago) was from a file


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## purplehaze (Jan 10, 2011)

*knives*

Ive never made one but wanted to so I read a bit about the process.  Old files are supposed to be good steel for a knife as well as old leaf springs.  Check e-bay for knife blanks they have ones made from damascus steel that look pretty cool.

Here is the address of a knife tutorial with lots of info

http://www.northcoastknives.com/northcoast_knives_tutorials_hints_tips2.htm

Search the net there are even videos on youtube.


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## Dudley Young (Jan 10, 2011)

I use to make them when I owned a machine shop. I use large old saw mill blades. That's the best steel for knives. I would rough cut them out with the plasma ark and go from there.


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## ThomJ (Jan 10, 2011)

we used to make them in the shop from power hacksaw blades also


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## FireMedic4Christ (Jan 10, 2011)

If you live around any farming areas, old plow shearers work well too.

Brian


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## BKelley (Jan 10, 2011)

Knife steel?? There are about as many knife steels  as there are knife makers.  For years the cutlery factories both here and abroad used 1095 steel.  Properly hardened and tempered it's about as good as you can get.  There are a lot of fancy steels out there, D2, AU8, 440C,.  If I were going to make a knife, I would use either the 1095 or 0-1.  Both are good to work with and both will hold an edge.  Take either of these steels and heat to a cherry red, quinch in 20 weight motor, polish out, heat till the steel turns between straw and purple, let it sit until cool.  World renown knife maker Randall uses swedish 0-1.   I*XL  and Joseph Rodgers both English companies used an
equivalant of 1095.  At one time one of the English cutlers hardened their blades with the urine of red headed boys, I don't advise this.  Have fun


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## ssajn (Jan 10, 2011)

The knives I've made have been made using 01 tool steel. Hardened in a heat treating oven, quenched in oil then tempered. 01 is easy to work with until it's treated then forget it. Keeps an edge a really long time.


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## KenV (Jan 10, 2011)

Peanut oil smells better for the quench --


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## glycerine (Jan 10, 2011)

What's the best way to heat treat?  I have a charcoal foundry that get's pretty hot.  Can I use that?


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## robutacion (Jan 11, 2011)

*Knife making story...!*

Oh yeah, knife making...! a fun and exciting project...!:wink:

When I was younger I've made knifes and machetes out of anything I could get my hands on, some worked better than others but generally all done its job.  In the end they all end-up hanging in my bedroom wall as a collection which I admired and kept in good order (condition), for many years...!

Probably one of the materials that will allow the easiest, quickest and very efficient knife making blade is the old blades from the circular saws once used to cut wood (mainly firewood) in many of the properties all over the world.

Australia has a long history on these and certainly a good supply of these blades that one can find in many property farms and old sheds.  Most are discarded and put among the "junk" yard, other are dumped and many are left where they where last used.  I remember to have seen many of these old rusty blades on dozens of properties I visited or worked on and never gave it a second though, they were of no use to me and many were still attached to their old motors, shafts, etc, which would require some heavy duty equipment to get them out or in worse possible scenario a gas torch to cut them out, none of that equipment was at my disposal so I ignored them.

Many years later I met an old retired fellow "Barry" that loves making knifes using nothing else than a 4" grinder and a drill and a belt sander, all he can afford...!:frown:  He found me and wanted some of my She/Bull-Oak and Olive wood for some handles, these here his 2 preferred woods but something he hadn't seen for sale or able to afford for a long time so we got talking and I send him (Brisbane) some of these 2 woods for him to work on.

He has also his own "signature" or should I say "personal touch" on all the knifes he makes as he puts lots of little Opal and other stones as part of the handle making.  Barry has a lady friend at one of the major Opal mines that sells him these bags of little left-overs from the Opal processing plant.

Anyway, last year Barry asked me if I knew where to get one of these old circular saw blades, one of his preferred materials also but unable to find one of those blades for many, many years so, and without thinking I said, yes mate no problems I will get you one...! Was only after I said this that I realise that all the places I knew where to find them are/were, are thousand a miles away...!

Anyway, I though to myself, sure this is an area where people have been using firewood for ever so, I should find some soon, somewhere...!
Amazing what one can find when looking for, and sure in one of the places close to town where I have been before, I spotted a metal frame on the tall green grass, not far from an old shed and at closer examination, there it was, the blade still attached to its shaft, as part of a frame from a tractor power supplying source, commonly used in those old says...!

Lukely for me the shaft was already detached from the metal frame and I needed to take the whole thing home as the large size nut was very rusted out, requiring some elbow grease and heavy tools to get it undone or cut off, which end-up what I had to do...!

Cut the blade in half, kept one half and send the other half also cut in half again for easy posting and said nothing until I've heard from Barry.:biggrin:

Was he happy or what, he didn't thing that I would give it a second tough as he has been promised some of those before and nothing ever happened so he was over the moon with these 2 quarters of a very large circular saw blade which he end-up cutting 16 knifes from (all shapes and sizes...!):biggrin:

Little I knew, he himself decided to make me a "special" knife as a Christmas (2010) present surprise, and surely a few weeks before Christmas, I received this box from Barry and inside was this very interesting large hand made knife which he made for my hunting's.  Considering what he had to work with, in materials and tools, I was certainly pleased with his surprise, as he also use some of the She/Bull-Oak I sent him...!:biggrin:

I have seen his work on another couple of knifes I made and send me, one also for my wife made with Majestic Olive in the handle.  This large hunting knife he made me, would be and ideal "sticker" knife the days I was chasing feral pigs, nevertheless, it will be a knife that I will admire for many years to come.

After spending so much time  writing and talking with Barry about knife making, I got somehow excited about the idea of making a couple for myself but using already the blades (blanks) made from the US, there are many places on eBay where they are found at very affordable prices so, I got to one of these sites and let myself lose for a little while and before I knew it I had $300 worth of gear in my "basket"...!

This was about 18 months ago, and everything still in the box it came from, all my projects planned for last Winter, as a indoor stuff while the weather isn't inviting to be out there working on trees (woods), were in fact good plans but somehow they were all changed as a lot of outside work was required and the weather did allow me to do it so all the under cover jobs had/have to wait...!

I end-up ordering some more stuff, knife making related from the same people but I'm attaching a pic of what I got the first time I went on their site...!
Oh..., I even bough some stones from eBay also for decorating my handles but the idea was to use one piece embedded in the wood, instead of crushed stuff.  One of the stones I got was a nice blue stone (I forgot what they're called) and when I got it I realise that was bigger than what I tough and one side of it had a perfect heart shape so, I cut split it in half and glued it to the outer skin of a piece of She/Bull-Oak, spraying the whole lot with some Floorseal varnish.  Made a little hole on the back and hanged it up in the wall as a present to my wife, Merissa.  The things we do...!:wink:

I will attached also some pics of this blade and the hunting knife Barry made for me...!

Enjoy...!:biggrin:

PS: Sorry *glycerine*, I know this is a teaser but, if this doesn't get you in the mood for making a knife, nothing will...!:wink:
Good luck.

Cheers
George


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## PenMan1 (Jan 11, 2011)

*Knife Answer!*

Don't ever bring one to a gun fight, no matter what kind of steel it is made from


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## KenV (Jan 11, 2011)

Charcoal was used for centuries.  It is not a hot as coal -- Hard coal is traditional in recent centuries, and gas forges (propane commonly, or LNG) are currently widely used.  

You want the metal heated pretty quickly and want to avoid loss of carbon from the steel,  MAPP gas torches (2 or 3 commonly) work too

Try it -- O1 Steel is not a huge expense.


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## jskeen (Jan 11, 2011)

Well, the short answer is yes and no   You can make a knife shaped object out of just about any metal.  Given enough time and patience you can learn to make good knives out of steel that you can scrounge.  But I will promise, it will take LOTS of time and effort to get there.  You will make literally dozens of blades out of old saw blades, leaf springs, files, ect, before you get good enough to make a knife that will take and hold an edge by anything other than luck. 

The best, easiest, and in the long run, cheapest way to minimize the failures is to start out with a KNOWN, good quality steel, like O1 or 1080 bar stock.  It's really just a few bucks per foot, and with that as a starting point, you will be able to make a knife that will take and HOLD an edge as well or better than any case, buck or uncle henry blade from the hardware store within your first half dozen attempts.  Now making them pretty, that's a whole 'nother story.  But if you can make a pen, you can finish a knife as nicely as you have the patience for on your first try.  

Your charcoal foundry should be perfectly capable of making all the heat you need to heat treat your blade, and charcoal is the best fuel for blade work, better than propane or hard coal.  

Now, since It's early and the wife is still watching "real housewives of somewhere I don't give a crap about", I've got time for a little knifemaking 101.  There are two main types of blade steel's.  Carbon steel and Stainless steel.  Carbon steel is the simplest of the "tool steels" in that it is basicly just iron with most of the impurities removed and carbon added.  It is usually designated by a number like 1095 or 1050.  The last two digits indicate the relative amount of carbon left in the steel when it's processed.  The more carbon in the steel (up to a point) the harder it will get when heat treated.  So, in theory 1095 will get harder than 1080, which will get harder than 1050, ect.  But in practice, all steels need to be hardened to their maximum, then softened a little, in a controlled manner, called tempering, to keep them from being too brittle.  So, maximum hardness is not necessarily a valid method of choosing your steel.  As long as you are working with a commercial quality known tool steel, there will be a published table of temps for tempering for it, and all you have to do is follow the recipe.  Other tool steels have different designations, like O1 or "oil quenching, variant 1" or A2 for air hardening, variant 2 or D2 for D2 for "durability, variant 2" (which means abrasion resistant) and are made to meet different needs.  The more complicated the formulation of the steel, the more complicated the heat treating it needs.   Anything beyond the basic carbon 10 series and O1 is probably beyond the new blademaker.  Personally I recommend either 1080 or 1075, or O1, whichever you can get cheapest.  They are probably the simplest to work with and give excellent results.  

Second thing you have to decide is, how are you going to shape the blade, and what size do you want.  There are two basic methods of shaping a blade.  The first is forging to shape, and the second is stock removal.  Forging is the basic blacksmithing technique.  Get it hot, bang on it till it is the shape you want.  Stock removal starts with a bar that is larger in all dimensions than your final blade, and grinding away all the excess.  For forging you can start with a thicker, narrower bar, like maybe 1"x1/4" for the average knife, and you can draw the blade down to as much as 2 inches tall pretty easily (relatively speaking)  For a stock removal, you will probably want to start with something in the area of 1/8x1 1/2 bar, or possibly 3/16x2 if you want to make big knives.  

That should get you started.  The other half of blade making involves "stainless steels" or in reality "rust resistant" steels.  They have elements like chromium, molybdenum, vanadium, ect added to make them stain and rust less easily.  These elements almost always make the steels unforgeable, and make the heat treating process much more complicated, to the point that it is done in computer thermostatic controlled electric ovens.  Probably not what you are going to be jumping off into first rattle out of the box.  

Anyway, that's some basics to hopefully help you decide where you want to go.  For more details, feel free to pm me and I'll point you to some very helpful forums online that are set up much like IAP with libraries and articles of actual procedures to follow.


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## robutacion (Jan 11, 2011)

Oops... I forgot to add the pics from my latest approach to knife making (well..., knife handle making to be correct...!)

Cheers
George


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## blade.white (Jan 11, 2011)

*good luck*

Knife blades are made from a variety of steels. The best resource for knife blanks and knife steels are 1) Jantz knifemaking supply, 2) Texas knifemakers supply, 3) K&G knifemakers supply and 4) Sheffield knifemakers supply. The first two companies also offer professional heat treating services. They have some dvds and good books on the subject as well. I recommend that you start by buying a knife blank and practice working on the handle first.
My first knife was a piece of 1/8 sheet metal cut out with a hammer and chisel when I was 12. Crude but effective.


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## glycerine (Jan 11, 2011)

Ok, a few more questions.  
Do sawmills still use those huge blades?
For shaping, I do NOT plan on forging, but cutting out the shape and then grinding.  I figured a combination of bandsaw, hacksaw, dremel, files, disc/belt sander and bench grinder would get me most of the way there.  But as far as heat treating, should this be done after I cut out the general shape that I want or before I cut the steel at all?


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## ThomJ (Jan 11, 2011)

best knife I have ever had I carry now, made by AG Russell, I couldn't come close to making one like it


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## dl351 (Jan 11, 2011)

Oh!  Knife making!

I've looked into this quite a bit myself.  I've done knife rehandles, ground a couple pre-cut blanks, and fully shaped and ground a knife.  The ones I've ground are going to go out for heat treating.  I found a maker who will do it for $10 a piece.  I decided to send them out because the steels I used are more picky when it comes to heat treating.

I've read that 0-1 is about the most forgiving steel to heat treat.  Some say to heat it until it's non-magnetic, let it "soak" in the "fire" for 60 seconds, then quench in (I think) transmission fluid.  I've seen several recommend against starting with 1095 unless you have a heat treating furnace.  Someday when I get my knives heat treated, I'll post pictures here.  Good luck, and have fun!

For steel you can check Admiral Steel and Alpha Knife Supply.  If you want pre-cut unground blanks, check out USA Knife Maker Supply.  These are a few that I've found and like.


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## jskeen (Jan 11, 2011)

glycerine said:


> Ok, a few more questions.
> Do sawmills still use those huge blades?
> For shaping, I do NOT plan on forging, but cutting out the shape and then grinding.  I figured a combination of bandsaw, hacksaw, dremel, files, disc/belt sander and bench grinder would get me most of the way there.  But as far as heat treating, should this be done after I cut out the general shape that I want or before I cut the steel at all?



Nope, sawmills use bandsaws now.  and Anyway, modern blades would be mild steel with carbide teeth or somesuch.  Again, you never really know what your working with with salvaged steel.  As for the heat treating, you do that after you have your blade 99% finished, lacking only the polishing.  You don't shape anything OR DRILL ANY HOLES after it's been heat treated.  So, get it pretty much how you want it first.  
And, heat treating is a two step process, the first step is the hardening, which involves heating the steel until the carbon goes into solution in the steel, (which is indicated in many steels by it's becoming nonmagnetic)  then quenching it in it's prefered medium.  Most simple steels, along with O1 use oil.  Mystery metals usually try this as a first step.   After this step the steel is as hard as it it will probably get, but also brittle and has lots of unreleased stress.  It next needs to be tempered.  Depending on what steel you use, there will be a published temperature and soak time to get to a desired rockwell hardness.  In the absence of that, you can attempt to judge the temper by the color, but it's a bit of a trick.  
After all that, you can start polishing your blade, and mounting the rest of the hardware and the handles.   

Fun Stuff!


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## glycerine (Jan 11, 2011)

Ok, so I'll heat it up, quench it in oil (or water) and then heat it again?  I don't have any type of thermometer to tell how hot my foundry is when tempering.  Any easy way of knowing...?


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## jskeen (Jan 11, 2011)

Tempering temperatures are usually within oven range.  I've used a toaster oven with a good thermometer.  

If you try to quench most hi carbon steels in water, they will shatter like glass.  Oil is much gentler on the metal.


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## glycerine (Jan 11, 2011)

jskeen said:


> Tempering temperatures are usually within oven range. I've used a toaster oven with a good thermometer.
> 
> If you try to quench most hi carbon steels in water, they will shatter like glass. Oil is much gentler on the metal.


 
Ok, good to know.  Thanks!


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