# Stabilizing pen blanks



## chgrjim

Okay, I bought some very nice buckeye burl from a vendor I trust on ebay.  Much to my delight, they were every bit as beautiful as they appeared in the picture.  However, they are extremely lightweight.  I am a little concerned that they will tend to shatter on the lathe.  

I have never stabilized my own blanks before and I was hoping for a little guidance or, at least, some opinions on which product works the best and what the procedure may be.

Thank you to anyone who can help.

JIM


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## jeff

Some folks were talking about "Nelsonite".
http://www.penturners.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=174


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## Rick Prevett

Jim, you might read through the thread I started (in this folder), titled 'Spalted Maple Blank Prep', or something like that.

rick


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## Rudy Vey

I called Nelsonite yesterday and asked for a small sample to try it out, but they sell it only in 5 gal pails or 55 gal drums. Just too much for some pen blanks to be stabilized. Would be interesting to find out if we can get together and buy a 5 gal pail and split the stuff and the costs, too.

Rudy


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## Scott

Hey Rudy!

We have begun supporting group buys here at Penturners.org.  Daniel Yourdon is our quartermaster for group buys at this time.  But maybe you can let him know the specifics, and he can determine if it is feasible.  He's been doing a great job on the CA Glue group buy!

Scott.


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## jeff

I think you can buy empty quart paint cans at Home Depot.  
I'm in for a quart if someone wants to coordinate this!


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## Daniel

I am willing to coordinate such a buy. but I need soem info to give at least a rough price per ??? for it. e-mail me and we can get the nuts and bolts figured out. 
an idea of just some of what i need.
contact info for the manufacturer or supplier. this has to be interactive contact to be sure about shipping restrictions and repackaging issues.
pricing and shipping costs. reshipping requirements. any hazzards in handling the product. that's just the short list. 
But I am very much the type to ask the question no matter how likely the answer is to be no just to absolutly hear the no.


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## Rudy Vey

Dan,
I just send you an e-mail with some of the info I gathered, not quite sure if it came through, though. let me know.

Rudy



> _Originally posted by Daniel_
> <br />I am willing to coordinate such a buy. but I need soem info to give at least a rough price per ??? for it. e-mail me and we can get the nuts and bolts figured out.
> an idea of just some of what i need.
> contact info for the manufacturer or supplier. this has to be interactive contact to be sure about shipping restrictions and repackaging issues.
> pricing and shipping costs. reshipping requirements. any hazzards in handling the product. that's just the short list.
> But I am very much the type to ask the question no matter how likely the answer is to be no just to absolutly hear the no.


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## Daniel

Rudy,
  Got the e-mail and will find out what i can and get back to you. and hopefully the rest about what can be done.


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## Scott

Hey Daniel,

Thanks for looking in to this!  I'd be up for a quart or two.  Another thing to think of is if we have a group member in the vicinity of were this stuff is shipped from - maybe they could pick it up and do the divvying and shipping.  If they're willing.  It would save on shipping cost!

Scott.


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## Daniel

Scott,
  I will keep that in mind as I find out the rest of the details.
the first issues that ahve to be know are.
1. will they sell to just anyone or only a business?
2. are their any shipping restrictions, the most likely woudl be ground shipping only.
3. any homeland security issues type things,
4 availability of the MSDS. in the case of the CA Bulk Buy the MSDS is available on line at teh e-zbond web sight. I can also copy it and mail it with any order that requests it. 
5. containers and availability of them to repack it in.
6. any hazards to be awair of in handling it.
7. remailing materials needed. boxes etc.
8 and at least a good guess at reshipping costs. I like to give just one price that will cover everything. 
so far quarts are what are being requested so for now it looks like it would be best to just get a price set per quart and then order a bucket for every 20 quarts that are requested. 
having someone that would will call the 5 gals and repack it etc. would be great. saving the shipping on what I guess woudl be a 40 pound container would be huge.
the address I have for them is
2320 Oak Industries Dr NE
Grand Rapids, MI
anyone in that area willing to bite???


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## Old Griz

I just received my free sample of Nelsonite today... they sent me a gallon for free... I will be trying it on a couple of different pen blanks this weekend... some box elder, walnut, spalted black locust and some regular black locust... all are nice and dry... 
The directions say that full cure is 72 hours... I will post back as soon as I see what it does..


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## Daniel

Tom,
  Please let me know what you find out, in a much detail as you can spare the time for. the more information I can include with the offer will help get others to take part. I still need to call them. it's been a very busy week for me. tonight is recouperating


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## Old Griz

Well so far I have soaked a spalted black locust, a regular black locust, a redwood and a red box elder in the solution for 10 minutes (the directions say 3 minutes, but I forgot the time).. they are now drying.  I did notice an appreciable difference in the weight of the blanks, especially the spalted one... I did not see any real difference in the color of the blanks.. 
The stuff is a dark amber color has a very heavy petroleum distillate smell and I definately recommend you not do this in the house.  Your significant other will not be happy.. in fact mine asked what the hell I spilled in the garage... LOL  
Now all that remains is to see what they are like when dried...


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## Andy Ryan

I asked Bill Baumbeck this very same question, this is His reply. Many thanx Bill. I just copyed his reply, 

Andy



A note on stabilization:

The best stabilization process utilize vacuum, expensive resins, pressure and heat.  We don't know the actual specifics of the process (how much vacuum is applied, what chemicals are used, and so on). The chemical's penetration is totally dependent on the wood itself.  Some woods will triple in weight while others may only gain 25% to 90%.

It has been our experience that wood soaked in some sort of chemical, which is completely different than what the commercial companies use, does not produce the same qualities as the product I offer.  "Home brews" may harden the surface of the wood but once you cut through that outer layer you are back to natural wood.  The money you spent on this inferior process is in now lying on the floor and is no use to you what so ever.



BB

----- Original Message ----- 
From: webmaster@arizonasilhouette.com


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## wdcav1952

I tried a technique using heated MinWax Wood Hardener and sealing the blanks in a canning jar.  I agree with Bill.  The outer surface was hard, the smell was that of a stabilized blank while turning, the material did not penetrate to, shall we say, finished pen depth.  Either stabilize with thin CA as you go, or shell out for professionally stabilized blanks.
William


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## Daniel

I read the instructions for using the hot water and minwax. If this stuff penetrates better I am wondering if the jar and hot water would help even more. It doesn't cover the vacume part that Bill talks about but it does get the heat and pressure step into it. I have read in other places tips on the vacume phase. Actually the stabalization process is used in many fields. so it is not an impossible process to learn in detail. the hardest thing is figuring out just what resin to use or acrylic or whatever. what I am looking for is that my plain wood pens will not crack. I like to make lower priced pens from just ordinary woods but they tend to crack alot over time. some not for a year or more. to find the quality of wood that Bill regularly has is way out of my zone of interest. but I am given local woods all the time that would simply split unless they are treated in some way. hopefuly the Nelsonite will be a product that will fit that need. Actually the Mason jar and hot water produce the vacume when the jar lid is tightend and cooled.


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## Old Griz

Nelsonite is used in the custom pool cue industry to stabilize the maple foreshafts of pool cues.. and it is also used by custom bamboo fly rod makers to impregnate the bamboo.  The way I look at it is... if this stuff can soak into a solid maple pool cue shaft before it is turned, it should work OK on pen blanks... when I spoke to the manufacturer, he said that it will soak 3/4" into the maple of the pool cue... and since our blanks are rarely over 3/4" square he saw no reason it would not soak to the middle of a pen blank... he said if you didn't think it would.. just drill the blanks first and then soak them. that way the stuff soaks from both side...


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## Daniel

Tom, I read the stuff on the Rods. then did a search for nelsonite on google. It looks like it is a pretty standard item for finer Pool Ques.
I need to call them and see if I can get my own sample as well. as many testamonies I can get the better. if I try and convince people to buy 5 gal of this stuff i want some idea what it will do for them.
Keep the updates coming and I am rooting for the outcome. I just re read the messages on pyntavryl. minwax wood hardener, adn others. non of them came out with alot of promise but I also see the potintial for their to be something lacking in the application. one other product that was mentioned but never tried was Resinal 90. real expensive at $70.00 per gal. I don't think this is what we are looking for. but you are right. I read several tests for nelsonite on th epool ques and penetration and if it penetrates maple that well their aren't alot of woods we use that it wouldn't penetrate. the next question is how solid does it get the wood.


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## leenollie

Good morning all,

I'm going to try an experiment using vacuum and FUTURE floor polish to stabilize some spalted Pecan. I am going to try both drilled and undrilled blanks. I figure if I can fully marinate meat in fifteen minutes at 10 inches of vacuum, I can get the acrylic to fully penetrate the punky wood in the same amount of time pulling 15-20 inches of vacuum. Once I get the vacuum jar set up and connect it up to my pump, I'll let you know how my experiment turns out.

Lee Biggers
The ever curious pen turner


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## pen-turners

thought I would post a little on this subject.  I tried the Future Floor Polish and it was pretty much a disaster.  Although it penetrated the Buckeye Burl quite well (because it is 90% water), it didn't seem to want to dry out.  I let it set for 2 weeks and it was still "gummy when I tried to turn it".  It also smelled really strong.  I am pretty much convinced using Future floor polish is a lost cause!!!!


On another note, I have learned a new way to stabalize that actually works!!!!!   I have turned 2 spalted buckeye burl blanks so far and they were comparable to turning a soft acrylic.  It is reletively cheap and easy although the chemicals used are dangerous.  I am in no way recommending anyone try this at home.  If you do - I urge you to be careful because acetone is very flammable!!!!  Thought I would pass this on.

STABILIZING WITH PLEXIGLAS!!!!!!

Break up a piece of Plexiglas into pieces small enough to put in a small jar.  Add enough acetone to cover the Plexiglas.  Let it stand for a few days.  If the amount is small, it will turn to a clear Karo syrup looking mass in a couple of days. Enough for two or three gallons takes a mite longer.  Just stir or shake often and you will get the clear "syrup".  Dilute to a milk or light cream like consistency.  Thinner penetrates quicker. Then just soak your wood in it - the longer the better.  I pre-drilled my blanks before soaking to let them soak from the inside also.  After you remove your wood, the acetone will evaporate off and leave the clear plexiglas compound embedded in the wood.

Thought I would pass this on.  It worked for me and I hope it works for you also!!!![8)]



<b>Image Insert:</b><br />


<br /> 82.38&nbsp;KB


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## Old Griz

Interesting concept on the plexiglass... how long did you actually soak it and how long did it take to dry completely... I might want to try this on some real punky spalted black locust...


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## Scott

Chris,

This is a great idea!  But I have to ask you, whatever prompted you to try dissolving plexiglass?   [8D]

Scott.


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## Rick Prevett

Chris, I have another question.  You don't say explicitly, but do you thin it with more acetone? If not, then what?

thanks,

rick


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## leenollie

Good morning all,

Well, I just want to confirm pen-turners posting for FUTURE floor polish. I was a disaster. I cut a blank last night to check the penetration (which wasn't very far) and if it was dry to turn (which it wasn't.) The good news is that I had only pulled the vacuum for 30-minutes and was a little surprised by the depth of penetration for such a short time. My next experiment is to try it with polyurethane or Nelsonite when I get it. More postings later.

Lee Biggers
THe ever curious pen turner

"Without imagination...life stagnates."
Anon.


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## its_virgil

> _Originally posted by chgrjim_
> <br />Okay, I bought some very nice buckeye burl from a vendor I trust on ebay.  Much to my delight, they were every bit as beautiful as they appeared in the picture.  However, they are extremely lightweight.
> 
> 
> I have had good luck soaking penblanks in polyurathane for a week or so and then letting them air dry for 4-5 days. Just cut, drill and put in a can of polyurathane. not like stabilized wood from BB but it did make some lightweight spalted stuff hold toghether and turn nicely.
> Do a good turn daily!
> Don


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## wdcav1952

Can we jump back to the plexiglass idea?  I put two precut and drilled wormy hickory, and two OLD air dried precut and drilled figured mahogany blanks into the acetone and plexiglass solution.  I put two precut pieces of cypress at the top of the bottle to hold the other two under.  Overnight, one of the wormy hickory blanks had sunk to the bottom.  Is this a good thing, or should I wonder why wood sinks?  Thanks in advance.

William


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## Scott

Hi William,

Just guessing, but I would think the sinking would be a positive thing, indicating that the solution had soaked all the way through!  I don't think it would hurt to leave it in there until the others are ready.  Anybody else?

Scott.


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## dw

Why not use celluloid instead of plexiglass? CSUSA offers celluloid blanks...so it must be a suitable material for pen bodies--turning and finishing up nicely. So...there is a product called celluloid cement which is essentially celluloid acetate in acetone. It has been used in the shoemaking industry for years. It is thick, like honey, but is easily thinned with more acetetone.  I wonder how it would do with Bethlehem Olive? I am pretty certain cut-offs from celluloid blanks could be dissolved in acetone, for that matter...although you might get into trouble with the different colors. Anyone have any thoughts as to why plexiglass is to be prefered?


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## Daniel

the way I see it, Plexiglass is what was finally found that actually works. 
Following it up with other plastics as you mention may very well be worthwhile. being acetone base it sounds like the celluloid might work just as well. adn coudl even be better. But better is usually a personal decision ayway.
If anyone tries the Celluloid Camant let ua all know how it works out.


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## jeff

I saw mentioned over on Yahoo! Penturners that QUARTS of Nelsonite are available HERE.


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## wdcav1952

I let my wormy hickory sit at the bottom of the jar of acetone/plexiglass for three days.  When I turned it, by the time I got close to slimline size, the plexiglass was gone.  I tossed the blanks back into solution and will check them this weekend.

BTW, is Nelsonite really as good as people say?  Does the wood really approach the feel and results of stabilized blanks?

William


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## pen-turners

William,
Did you drill the blank before soaking??  I always drill the blank first so it soaks from the inside out also.

Chris


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## Rick Prevett

Jeff, I checked out the Nelsonite site, and while quarts are actually on sale ($12.95, I think), there is a down side.  There is a minimum $50 order.  Now, they do have some tremendous looking 1.5 x 1.5 x 18(?) sized blanks for sale, so it might not take long to reach that $50 minimum, but it's there.

rick


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## jeff

Rick, I missed the minimum order info!  They do have some gorgeous wood, but the stuff I like works out to about $10 a pen blank when cut from their larger stock. []


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## Rick Prevett

Jeff, I hadn't done the math for pen blanks from those pieces, but I did think the prices were a bit high, compared to what's available at my local wood store.  

Where's Ol'Griz?  He needs to keep us updated on his experiments, since he was able to get a free sample of Nelsonite (probably before every pen turner in the US called them for their 'free sample' [] )

If the stuff works, maybe I could talk our club into buys $50 worth (in quarts) for re-distribution.

rick


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## wdcav1952

Chris,
Yes, I did pre-drill the blanks.  My solution had about 1/3 inch of gooey plexiglass at the bottom of the jar.  Should I pour off the liquid acetone/plexiglass and use that to soak the blanks in?  How long should I leave the blanks?  I have two pre-drilled very old and dry mahogony (air-dried for 15 years or more in a deserted shop) still in the original solution.
Thanks, William


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## Old Griz

Old Griz is waiting for his pen trimmer to arrive... I have 4 blanks (2 heavy spalted and 2 normals) that soaked overnight all mounted with tubes, the real badly spalted ones look like they might still need a shot of CA (but they had some real soft spots anyway) but for the most part it looks like the stuff works... the insides of the blanks had a real smooth appearance when cut, not like normal wood.. and they were appreciably heavier.. I could feel the difference


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## Daniel

IF someone is willing to do a bulk buy for the nelsonite in quarts. I would be interested in helping fill the min. also If I can find the time I will help them get set up to keep track of the orders and make at least a guess at mailing costs etc. Sory I have simplly been to busy to follow through on this one folks. adn it ain't gonna get beter soon. I will be most of the summer building myself a new shop.


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## leenollie

Good afternoon all,

Just wanted to give everyone an update on my stabilizing experiments. I used some polyeurathane to stabilize soem spalted Pecan. From what I've read in this and other forums, once the piece sinks, it should be ready once it dries. I've also read that it can take days for the piece to sink. Well, I put some cut and drilled planks of spalted Pecan in a small jar of polyeurathane Saturday night and placed it in a vacuum. The poly foamed up a bit, but the next morning, before I went to church, I checked on the blanks and saw that they had sank to the bottom of the container. I released the vacuum and when I pulled the blanks out, there was a considerable weight difference. I am waiting for them to dry so that I can tube and turn them. I will let you know how that turns out in a couple of days.

Lee Biggers
The ever curious pen turner []


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## wdcav1952

Lee,
Just curious, since you mentioned vacuum.  How do you apply vacuum to the solution?  I had, shall we say, almost scary results when I heated the Minwax wood treatment and it boiled over. (Outside, no open flame!)  I refilled and heated it less then sealed the bottle like home canning with a mason jar.  My results were not very good.  I am trying the plexiglass solution, but am interested in the vacuum idea.

Thank you, William


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## leenollie

Good morning William,

I set up a vacuum chamber box and placed the pint can of polyurethane with the wood blanks within it. I have a  gauge / shutoff valve setup that allows the box to maintain about 20-inches of vacuum within indefinitely. I started with a glass jar that originally held a desiccant that was shipped from the manufacturer vacuum sealed. The box I use now was made by the company my uncle works at and has been used there for many years. I'm going to tube and turn the blanks tonight and see if my experiment worked. Wish me luck.

Lee Biggers
The ever curious pen turner []


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## wdcav1952

Lee,  Any chance you could show us some pictures or write up a tutorial for your process?  It sounds interesting.  I am going to turn some extremely dry crotch mahogany that I soaked for a week in the acetone/plexiglass solution tonight, and am eager to see how it turns out.  I didn't notice as much weight increase as I had hoped for, though.

William


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## leenollie

William, I will put together something tonight and put it under the "Tips" forum after I turn the pieces I have already prepared. I will also take the pictures using my jar canister because the box does has only a very small window and very little lighting. I think the jar will give a better view of what happens.

Lee
The ever curious pen turner []


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## wdcav1952

Thanks Lee,  Good Luck!

William


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## leenollie

Good afternoon all,

I was reading the responses to my post under the "Show off your pens" forum, and Scott thought that my idea might make a good article. I sent him what I had. He emailed me back saying that he liked what he saw, made 2 adjustments to the flow, and sent the revised version back to me as well as to Jeff so that he could upload it. I am very excited to be published. Thanks for the help, Scott and Jeff.

Lee Biggers
The ever curious pen turner []


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## jeff

I hope to get the article up as part of the new site layout. Look for it this weekend! Lee, thank you very much for taking the time to document your work so nicely.


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## wdcav1952

Jeff and Lee,
Be assured I will be glued to the site (Not CA) this weekend.  I am looking forward to this tutorial.  Congratulations, Lee, should we ask for your autograph now, before you start to charge for it?!
William


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## leenollie

Sure, I can give you my autograph, but my autograph and $1.89 will buy you one gallon of unleaded gas. [] Thanks for the compliment.

Lee Biggers
The ever curious (and soon to be published) pen turner [8D]


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## leenollie

Well, I turned some more stabilized Spalted Pecan last night. After the blanks sunk from the vacuum treatment, I left them in the can for 36 hours and let them dry for 48 hours again. They turned really well - I only had to make one very small patch, more of a preventative step. Unfortunately, the piece did blow up after all. Upon inspection, I found that the blank did not adhere well to the tube - no glue was present. Oh well, regardless of how well one prepares, Murphy still makes his law known. 

Lee Biggers
The ever curious pen turner [B)]


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## Evan

Thanks for the nice article Lee.  Need to try this out with some of the spalted blanks in the future.

Evan


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## leenollie

Good morning all,

I got a request from Tim Daleiden for more information concerning the physical setup for my vacuum chamber. Well, here it is:

As stated in the tutorial, the chamber is a one-gallon pickle jar. The vacuum gauge is one that was given to me by my uncle, which he had gotten from work. He was the one who also gave me the vacuum pump. I'm pretty sure that they are available from any good hardware store. If not, they should know where they could be gotten.

The toggle needle valve is one I scrounged from work. Any good sealing valve (needle, toggle, ball, etc.) should work in this situation. It is important, though, to attach the valve to the chamber with the flow going _outward._ These types of valves can be gotten from a reliable hardware store. The black iron fittings are 1/4-inch black pipe and I used Teflon tape on the pipe threads. 

I hope this answers some of your questions, everyone. If not, please feel free to let me know and I will try to answer them as best I can.

Lee Biggers
The ever curious pen turner []


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## leenollie

Oops, I'd like to make a correction. In my tutorial, I said that I used a one pint can of polyurethane. I just looked at the can again (I'm still using it.) _It is a 1/2 pint can._ Sorry for the mixup, everyone.

Lee Biggers
The ever curious pen turner []


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## wayneis

If anyone still wants to buy Nelsonite I heard about a company that sells it,  The company, cue components, sells everything a person needs to make pool cues.  Not only do they sell Nelsonite but all of the woods that they sell and use is treated with it.  It sells for $12.95 per Qt and $49.95 Gal.  I ordered a Qt myself along with a few other assorted things.  I could not resist their wood and ordered a nice piece of amboyna burl.  I like how they sell their woods, you actually pick out the piece you want from pictures on their web site, just like Gilmore lumber company who also sells premiem woods.  
Another thing that they sell and I'm also going to try is an epoxy finish they sell.  Very interesting site, www.cuecomponents.com they even have tutorials.

Hope this helps somebody,
Wayne Swindlehurst


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## wdcav1952

Lee, I do not mean this to intrude on your wonderful article at all, but here is a link for those who may want to try your technique and don't have a vacuum pump.  I have not attempted to make the pump described, but it looks like it should work with your technique.  I am saving the link and will try to make the pump when I get moved and settled in Pennsylvania.  Anyone who can try this now, let us know how it works.  http://www.scitoys.com/scitoys/scitoys/aero/vacuum/
Since I don't know how to do links very well, you may have to do a cut and paste to the address bar to go to the site.
William


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## leenollie

William - I took a look at the site...very interesting. I think that anyone following the instructions should be able to make this pump, and at a relatively low cost. I think the most expensive part would be the check valve. Overall, a person might be able to pull about 10 inches with it. The only thing I would add ( at the chamber side) would be a shutoff valve of some sort to hold the vacuum once it is created.

Lee Biggers
The ever curious pen turner []


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## leenollie

William, I looked at the site more closely and am very impressed by this pump...23-26 inches of vacuum is mighty heavy vacuum, especially in a small area. The PVC check valve can be gotten at Lowes or Home Depot for less than $10. I may make one of these just for the heck of it.

Lee Biggers
The ever curious pen turner []


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## leenollie

Good morning all,

Just a little update on my experiment...I tried to stabilize an undrilled 5-inch long blank of Spalted Pecan using polyurethane. It took 24 hours for the blank to completely sink, with me turning the blank over and reapplying the vacuum. After letting it completely dry, I cut it in half. The poly completely permeated the wood. I am going to try Polycryl as a stabilizer as soon as I use up the polyurethane I have.

Lee Biggers
The ever curious pen turner []


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## Daniel

Incouraging,
  Post a pick of the pen when you get that far


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## tipusnr

The big thing stopping me from making one of these vacuum units is the vacuum pump.  I don't have enough patience for a hand pump so that leaves a low-cost electric version.  Would my shop vac pull enough vacuum for the "pickle jar" unit?

One of the guys at work mentioned a vacuum pump used for bleeding brake lines that, he thinks, goes for around $25.00.

Any advice?[?]


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## Doghouse

http://www.boatus-store.com/webapp/...=20002&classNum=170&subdeptNum=169&storeNum=6

This is a topsider oil change pump.  I used it and you can pull enough vacuum to cause the can to start to dent.  You would need a way to seal off the vacuum as it will slowly deminish due to all the friction fittings.  I used a mason jar and fish tank gang valve.  It works to not only set the vacuum, but allows you to open the other valve and release the vacuum to "rest" the wood.  I will be cutting a couple of the blanks tonight and will photograph the result.


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## tipusnr

Thanks for the input but that's a bit more than I want to pay for a pump.  It's also a manual pump and I saw someone post that to get the level of vacuum needed took 90 PUMPS.  Not for me!!

Tried auto parts websites but don't know quite how to explain that I want to draw 20 inches of vacuum in a large pickle jar!! There's an invitation to analysis!!!


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## Doghouse

No, 90 pumps started to cause the pump to colapse upon itself.  At 95 the poly itself started to bubble.  I have been able to get the blanks to foam within the first 10 pumps.  I just wanted to see if I could get the glass to implode.  Never figured the metal would start to cave in first.  After 2 sets of pumping and letting it sit, I no longer had any bubbles comming from the blank.  I may use laquer next time as although the spalted maple is now hard as a rock, it no longer is as white, it has taken on the golden color of poly.  

Any chemists out there that can tell me if it is safe to put high vacuum pressure on laquer?  It is fun to play with this stuff, but I don't want to see it explode!


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## ilikewood

It is not the lacquer that is dangerous in vapor form, but the solvent it is in.  The label on the jar should let you know if it is flammable or not.  Anytime you have an electrical circuit that could spark (eg. motors), there is always the possibility for it to ignite a vapored solvent.  The only way to totally avoid this is to buy a "explosion" proof system...and unless you have money to burn, most people can't afford it.  

I personally would not run a motor near a vaporizing solvent (lacquer under vacuum), but if you did...do it outside where the vapors can be vented away.

Bill in Idaho (R&D chemist...wanna be woodworker)


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## Doghouse

Thanks.  I'll clean everything out this week and try laquer this weekend.


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## leenollie

Let us know how that turns out, John. I might try the laquer as well.

Lee Biggers
The ever curious pen turner []


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## wayneis

Someone else posted this also but I am also wondering if a shop vac will draw enough.  Also I have had a couple of air pumps that are used to pump up bike tires air mattresses etc that also have a vacume for pulling air out of a mattress, do you think that something like this would work?  Some of these small pumps are around ten bucks.

Wayne


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## pecartus

Bill - This may sound stupid, How does one vent fumes from a enclosed vacuum chamber?


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## leenollie

I've been thinking about different types of vacuum pumps out there on the market. Granted, the more vacuum you can pull, the faster the air can be removed from the blank. I would think that any amount of vacuum will do the trick; It would just take a little longer to do. I've seen that the Spalted Pecan blanks I use start to foam at about 12 inches of vacuum.

On the air mattress pump, That might work if you hooked it up to a one-way valve.

Lee Biggers
The ever curious pen turner []


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## woodman928

I have been lurking in the back round for a few days and reading posts. Lee I have been trying to find your article on vacuum stabilizing wood but cant figure out where it is at can you point a newbie in the right direction.
Thanks 
Jay


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## Daniel

Patrick,
  YOu woudl be drawing fumes along withthe air as you create the Vacume. Plus it is not a perfect vacume. what is left is loaded with fumes and more than you woudl without the vacume as well.


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## ilikewood

Sorry Patrick about not answering this one sooner....been a bit busy.  How does one vent fumes from an enclosed chamber?  When you pull a vacuum, you are basically removing the air from the chamber with a pump.  When the pump pulls the air out, it has to send it somewhere and it is just ususally vented to the atmosphere outside the pump.  A check valve prevents the air from coming back in.  Most systems are virtually impossible to keep perfectly sealed, so air eventually will seep back in....then you must pump the air back out.  If you want me to explain how the solvent boils, I'll have to write you a separate letter as it gets a bit more lengthy.

Imagine yourself digging a hole with a shovel (you and the pump and the hole you are going to dig is the can you are going to pull a vacuum on).  When you start shoveling, the dirt (which represents the air/fume mix) has to go somewhere.

Hope that helps a bit...I am trying to write this real quick cause I am late for work already. 
[8D]


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## pecartus

Thanks Bill,

I have some Olive Wood Burl blanks that arent stabilized I would like to try this out on, have digested all the information given here and hopefully nothing blows up on me. Any other words of advise not posted here[?]


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## leenollie

> _Originally posted by woodman928_
> <br />I have been lurking in the back round for a few days and reading posts. Lee I have been trying to find your article on vacuum stabilizing wood but cant figure out where it is at can you point a newbie in the right direction.
> Thanks
> Jay



Hi Jay,

If you to the home page here and click the "Articles" link, my article is the fourth one down. 

Lee Biggers
The ever curious pen turner []


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## woodman928

Thanks Lee
 I came here from Ed's stopper group and bookmarked it to come to the discussion page and looked everywhere but must have had a Senior Moment and never did hit HOME ( DUH) Thanks again will check it out tonight
Jay


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## Doghouse

I just posted a cigar pen with the results of the above described method.  A little yellow hew was introduced by the poly, but it does not look bad.


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## pecartus

Thats a nice looking pen, I like the way the light yellow hue contrasts the black rings in the pen bands. I havent built up the courage yet to try this, I'm getting there. I need to do this on some olivewood blanks I got a few weeks back.


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## leenollie

Very nice pen, John. Poly does the same to the Spalted Pecan I have been using a lot of. I think it dramatizes the color differences, brings them out quite a bit. I haven't yet, but I'm going to try BLO and Tung oil as stabilizing agents as well. Later, I'll try Laquer. Good luck and "keep stabilized." []

Lee Biggers
The ever curious pen turner []


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## pen-turners

Am halfway through an experiment.  Have a couple of Spalted Buckeye Burl blanks soaking in Minwax wood hardener with red dye added and will turn them in a few days.  Will let everyone know the outcome good or bad.  I also have a batch soaking in plexiglass acetone mixture and will compare the results.

Chris


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## Guest

I picked up a hand vacuum pump at Harbor Freight for $26.00 on sale.
My local Lowes has a wood stabilizer made for rotted wood put out by Bondo.
Will give that a try today.


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## tipusnr

We have two Harbor Freights in town and neither carries the hand pumps in stock.  I'm starting to obsess over making one of these vacuum chambers even while scared about getting it wrong and wasting money.


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## jrc

I used the wood hardner for some elm, cherry burl, and maple burl.  I let them soak for a day or two and after I turned them I could tell that they soaked all the way thru.  I'm not sure if you need a vacum but it does not hurt to try.


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## Doghouse

Ok, I tried a pressure cooker with laquer.  It worked ok until the pump blew (air conditioner) then the rubber seal let go from the laquer thinner.  Hmmm... Back to the drawing board.  I may have to try making a new seal of some kind...


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## Guest

Tried the HF hand pump.USed quart mason jar with fitting on the top.
The blanks were corn cob.
The gauge got up to about 22-22 lbs.( I guess that's what you call it)Cobs bubbled.Within 1/2 hr they sank.The down side is the fumes from the hardner melted teh pump.
I can still pull a vacuum but I have to unscrew the gauge to release the pressure.
I'll let them dry overnite and turn them tomorrow.


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## pen-turners

Just pulled my blanks out of the Minwax hardner and red dye mix.  Will cut them later and check to see how saturated they are.  I didn't do the dye for looks but rather to judge saturation of the hardening medium.  Will update later.  I did some spalted buckeye burl and box elder burl.

Chris


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## Guest

In a earlier post i reported I had a qualified success with the Harbor freight Hand pump.
I then went back and picked up the venturi vacuum pump.It was on sale at my local store for $9.99.
<b></b>BELIEVE IT OR NOT IT WORKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This pump works on a compressor.
The suction fitting supplied is  the type that goes on refrigeration lines but once removed, standard 1/8 pipe fittings can be used.
I recommend removing the bottom and holding the venturi fitting while making the necessary modifications.

To those who are using a hand pump in no way should it take 90 pumps to pull a vacuum. If it does you must have a leak somewhere.
I also recommend using Ball type jars and lids.You can mount the fitting in the lids and if the seal gets ruined  the fitting can be reapplied to another lid which are replaceable.I have "stripped the outer screw ring on my setup but once the vac is pulled the outer ring doesn't really matter.
THis is the pump at Harbor Freight.
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=3952


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## SAK

Hey guys,  This is new for me.  I'm the GM at Nelsonite Chemical Products, Inc. Grand Rapids, Michigan.   We would be more than happy to supply sample quarts for your group trial.   We have been making Nelsonite for 70+ years and have enormous faith in it's performance.   Give me a call and I'll make sure it's shipped at no charge.
(616)456-7098 or fax (616)456-6632


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## wayneis

SAK, I have to say that this really suprises me.  Many of us here and at the other penturners site tried to purchase your product and several were treated pretty badly.  I at last found and purchased Nelsonite from a Company that makes pool ques.  It may be good for some uses but I was not at all impressed in it for stabilizing wood blanks for pen turning.  In fact I have a half gallon that I don't know what to do with.

Wayne


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## DCBluesman

I contacted Scott Knutsen of Nelsonite.  He seems genuine and sincere in wanting us to see if their products are a good fit for our craft.   He has agreed to supply me with a quart each of three products which he believes might be useful in stabilizing penblanks.  I will test it against a number of species and let the group know my results.


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## Daniel

I would like to thank both Lou and Scott Knutsen. for seeing whatever they see in this group to have threre products tested by us. it was one of the things I hoped to see begin to happen in this group. thank you for your respect in our opinions. and the time you have taken to allow us to see if your products will benefit our craft. I take it as an honor.


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## wayneis

Why don'y you ask some of the people here that have already tried it.  It seems as though my opinion is'nt worth listening to so ask Tom (old Griz)  If you do a search you'll find that a few of us  Tom and I included, tried and reported that we were not impressed and I think that there was one or two others that also reported the same thing.  Unless they have a new product out, it is not the type of stabilizing agent we are looking for.  When the pool que companies use it they start out with wood that is stable, we do not.  What pen turners need to have stabilized is pretty soft woods, spalted woods and burl wood.  
Wayne


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## DCBluesman

Wayne...I actually spent half an hour reading every single post on this site that had the word Nelsonite in it.  In my reading, what I found were apocryphal references with few facts. What I proposed to Scott Knutsen is that I try a variety of woods in each of the three separate products that he thinks might be worth our while.  I will lay out the test much as I layed out the test I recently did on kit parts.  I will report back to this forum with the results.  I explained to Scott K. that I would send him a copy, but that I would post the results here...good or bad.  He was VERY comfortable with that idea.  

This is not an attempt to lessen the value of anyone's opinion. You're opinion, as well as Tom Mullane's, are very much worth listening to.  This is simply a test with a bit more structure in the reporting.  If you have already gathered this data, I'd love to see it shared here.  I will gladly call Scott back and let him know the results and that I do not feel further testing is necessary.  Just let me know.  Thanks!  [8D]


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## dougle40

I personally haven't done any stabilizing but if they do have some different products , and maybe improved , I think it's worth a shot .
Couldn't hurt !!!


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## Daniel

Wayne,
  I read this entire thread. I have also seen comments about nelsonite in the past. I have also been awaire of your experience with them.
 1. I have not seen anything that indicated to me the results of having used the nelsonite.
 2. the attempts to use it seemed to get lost in either the difficulty of locating it, the cost of it or quantities it had to be gotten in.
the presute headed in the direction of polyurethane and nelsonite seemed to be forgotten.
 3. even then I recall the nelsonite was "Given" away and still no real report of it was made.
 4. it was only one product not three that was even tried.
 5. your bad experience does not convince me to not evaluate there product.
Personally I want to go back and try the Plexiglass and acetone idea but use vacume with it. it has been clear to me right from the start that whatever is used needs a vacume. it also needs to be put under pressure afterwards. I am going to try with just the vacume. if you go back and read my previous comments in this thread. I am interested in something that will stabalize every piece of wood I use. Your bad experience doesn't cancel my desire to find that. I have made pens out of unstabalized, hard tight grained woods ony to have them crack weeks, months even up to a year later. this is not the sort of results I want from my work. if people that are making items that sell for thousands of dollars, like pool ques and fly rods do, use this stuff. that is a pretty powerful comment to me.


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## Fred in NC

Daniel, I fully understand your reasoning.  Further testing and research are in order.  I am willing to help.

Vacuum is the way to exhaust the air so the liquid can be absorbed into the wood.  The atmospheric pressure forces the liquid in IF the blank is submerged in the liquid.  If the atmospheric pressure is not sufficient, then pressure will be needed.  I have both a vacuum pump and a compressor, and I am willing to help if needed.


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## Daniel

Fred,
 this may be better discussed through e-mail or evem a phone conversation.
I can call you cheap if I have your number. 
basically the plexiglass in my mind offers the most solid medium. just my gut feeling about it. there are two different types of plexiglass. Acrylic which is what i wanted to try first. and Polyecetate or something like that.
I am looking for info on safely handeling Acetone and what mixture you are getting when you desolve Plexiglass in it. basically I have found that you need Goggles, rubber gloves and a resporator that will stop gas vapor for the acetone. nothing on the possible gases that coudl be created with the combination yet. Acetone is volatile and would have a
catch on fire issue. but venting to the atmosphere is not a problem. i.e. just sending it out to the neighborhood with a fan. 
basicaly this is the same thing that they do in nail salons with acrylic nails. just a very fine grade and expensive acrylic that they use.
I can help with cost. If you can conduct the trials.
plexiglass and acetone look like all we would need if you have the vacume pump. be sure the acetone will not eat your pump though. 
thanks


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## Fred in NC

Daniel, I will be in contact soon.


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## wayneis

Daniel I do agree with most everything you said.  We do need something similar to the plexiglass to stabilize the woods that are used in our applications.  I went back and did a search because there is two different threads talking about this and found a few posts from you, Tom and I.  What both Tom and I found and reported back were that the certain Nelsonite product that we tested was water thin, had a very strong patrolium smell, and did nothing to stabilize burl or un-stable woods.  If Nelsonite has another product, then maybe it is something new, then I'm all for trying it.

I've purchased wood from que components and like you stated in a much earlier post, the wood that the pool manufacturers use is a stable wood to begin with.  The woods that are used in making pool que's and fishing rods are much different, all of the woods that QC offer are pretty tight grain woods, maple, pink ivory, black wood, and so on.  I don't think that thats the types of wood that we are trying to stabilize. I bought two different types of amboyna burl from them and there was no difference in the structure of their's and the amboyna that I've bought from Gilmer or several other companies that had non-stabilized amboyna burl.

Wayne


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## Daniel

Hot Dog,
 I can't believe how many times this issue has been descussed, pondered,
attempts of one sort or anouther have been started. etc. and there is still no defenitive answer to it. Can we stabalize our own wood from home??? I would love for this to be beaten to a definitive death or figured out. there is so much work to be done that somehow it has to be coordinated, and documented. this group has the coordination and preservation of conversation ability to get it done. 
thank you for helping Fred.


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## wayneis

Lou do a search because there are two threads.  I the other thread is where both Tom and I believe my reports are located.  If they have two other products then maybe one of them would be better than what we tested.  The information that was available at the time said nothing about three different products.  There is a big difference in the woods that we need stabilized and the woods that are used in pool ques and fishing rods.  

Wayne



> _Originally posted by DCBluesman_
> <br />Wayne...I actually spent half an hour reading every single post on this site that had the word Nelsonite in it.  In my reading, what I found were apocryphal references with few facts. What I proposed to Scott Knutsen is that I try a variety of woods in each of the three separate products that he thinks might be worth our while.  I will lay out the test much as I layed out the test I recently did on kit parts.  I will report back to this forum with the results.  I explained to Scott K. that I would send him a copy, but that I would post the results here...good or bad.  He was VERY comfortable with that idea.
> 
> This is not an attempt to lessen the value of anyone's opinion. You're opinion, as well as Tom Mullane's, are very much worth listening to.  This is simply a test with a bit more structure in the reporting.  If you have already gathered this data, I'd love to see it shared here.  I will gladly call Scott back and let him know the results and that I do not feel further testing is necessary.  Just let me know.  Thanks!  [8D]


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## wayneis

Daniel in a conversation with a friend last night that is setting up a stabilizing process, he said that heat is also involved along with vacume.  The stabilizing product is baked into the wood from what I understood.  Another thing for you to ponder.

Wayne


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## Daniel

Wayne,
 You are correct in that we use many woods that are not structurally there enough for just coating with some material that does not lend a strangth to the material. crumbly burls etc. I hope that a couple or even three or four different pricess can be discovered that will work for various applications. in a perfect world the ones for harder woods would be cheaper and simpler. withthe harder more expensive methods being for the soft puncky or simply crumbly type woods. of course lets nto forget the it would be best to just find one dip it and it is done fantasy. who knows it may eventually be found. one thing that cannot be replaced is the ability to consistantly find the quality of woods that say Bill form AS provides. but hte ability to stablize say even redwood. well who will ship off redwood and pay the price to have ti done? if they could get a can of nelsonite or polyurethane or whatever and do it themselves. well it might bring redwood pens to a whole new level.
I just simply think htis is a topic that eventually needs an answer. this group has by far gone the furthest in answering it. I think it is great that you can go back and actually find something I said way back when. it is what I see will make this whole thing possible.
I knew the conversation had gotten split up but hadn't goen and found the pieces myself. hopefully we will find something that works, and then have to gather up all the parts and put them in one place.


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## Daniel

Wayne,
I am awaire that teh process used by the companies use Heat at some point in the process. this is how it all fits together in my understanding.
Blank is submerged in a bath of the stabalizing medium and a vacume is applied. the blanks is then removed from the bath and placed under pressure to furter force the material into the wood. then the whole thing is heated to cure the stabalizing material. I think the heat is applied while the blank is still in the pressure stage as well but never been entirely sure. I hope to find a process that eleminates some of these steps. an acceptable compromise method.


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## danf

Gentlemen

Having read this entire thread I am more than a little surprised that no one has mentioned an old fridge or freezer compressor for the vacuum cource.As it was very simply explained to me,(and I need it simple) one side sucks and the other blows. A friend and myself are about to build a small version of a Vacuum Kiln that we saw on this link            http://carverscompanion.com/Ezine/Vol2Issue4/LynnDiel/LynnDiel.html

It looks as though it would dry small amounts of wood for turning very quickly without or with minimal checking. Just thought I'd mention this to supplement the wealth of information here..

DanF


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## Fred in NC

Dan:  Link did not work.  This one did:

http://www.carverscompanion.com/Ezine/Vol2Issue4/LynnDiel/LynnDiel.html


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## danf

Thanks Fred

I went back and changed it but you were to quick for me.

Seasons greetings to you and yours

DanF


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## Rifleman1776

Chris, I couldn't find your posting with the results. Please update us. Thanks.








> _Originally posted by pen-turners_
> <br />Am halfway through an experiment.  Have a couple of Spalted Buckeye Burl blanks soaking in Minwax wood hardener with red dye added and will turn them in a few days.  Will let everyone know the outcome good or bad.  I also have a batch soaking in plexiglass acetone mixture and will compare the results.
> 
> Chris


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