# Going Into Kitless



## Rolandranch (Mar 23, 2017)

I would like to know what size range of taps/dies is generally used for making kitless pens. Can I just pick up a set at Home Depot to start with or would it be better to buy specific ones online? I think I have everything else I need... at least to get started.

Any advice is appreciated.


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## lyonsacc (Mar 23, 2017)

Mike Redburn wrote an article in the library that you may find helpful

http://content.penturners.org/library/general_reference/taps_dies_kitless.pdf


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## Rolandranch (Mar 23, 2017)

Thank you. That was very helpful.


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## skiprat (Mar 23, 2017)

Seth, are you looking at joining the plastic fountain pen clones or considering ballpoints/rollerballs? 
. 
With so many fantastic new types of rollerball and even ballpoint refills on the market, I personally think fountain pens are no longer needed to make a good writing pen. I think they have had their day and now are just a fashion statement. ( I can see the purists looking for a tree and a rope already )

Although most kitless fountain pens here are indeed superbly made, I struggle to see any difference in them anymore. Clipless plastic sticks with a decent nib. 
Unfortunately they are all starting to look like clones to me. I could only name two unique fountain pen makers. Bruce Boone's stunning work and our friend with the unpronounceable name, MarioproperiaUrishiYokahomaOrSomething from Switzerland. 

The tooling and cutters required for any kitless work is proportional to the depths of your pockets. 
You can join the bandwagon ( like I did ) and buy every group buy tap and die available, and then wish you hadn't or you can do it sensibly ( like I didn't ).

To me, multi start cutters served only one real purpose and had several 'justificational' happy coincidences. ( see that other recent thread ) 
I don't need the physics advantage of multi start threads because I don't make weak threaded plastic parts that aren't supported at least by a trim band. I therefore use off the shelf standard single lead Metric Fine taps and dies. M10 x 1mm is my go to set. I may use M8 x 0.75 for a skinny pen or M12 x 1 for a fatty. I often wish I had never bought all those fancy cutters. 

99.99% of all my kitless pens are rollerballs or ballpoints. There aren't that many RB or BP makers around much that these days. I think the nib making is probably the sticking point. A metal lathe does really help but is absolutely not essential.  
To me, the only thing that really is needed is the ability ( tooling and skill ) to drill holes to an exact depth.
You have proven here that you are pretty well skilled and I'm confident you could attach a digital vernier to your wood lathe tailstock to drill accurate holes and a decent set of files will shape any external surfaces that your normal chisels can't. 

Please look up my Rat's Tale to see what a set of files can do. I hope it inspires you. :biggrin:

If you do join the Dark Side and have a go with RBs or BPs then I'll I'll gladly help any way I can. Join the Clones and your on your own kiddo. 

Ok, now try read that last sentence like it was Obi One Kenobi speaking to Luke.....:biggrin:

Good luck.:wink:


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## leehljp (Mar 23, 2017)

Steven, I am jumping in here as I have written on the issue of fountain pens being the highest priced. I am glad you are more observant that I am, and I know the pendulum swings from time to time. Thanks for your insights on the BP & RBs. I appreciate it, even if this isn't my thread!


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## AWLogue (Mar 23, 2017)

I wouldn't recommend investing a lot of money immediately, in case you don't enjoy it or can't get the hang of it.

After reading and researching a lot, I ended up selecting m12x0.75 for cap/body and m9x0.75 for section threads. They're rather cheap from Victornet, and are good for rollers, ballpoints, and fountains. After making a few successful ones, figuring out procedures, and deciding to stick with kitless, I made the move up to the more expensive tooling and triple-start threads.





skiprat said:


> Although most kitless fountain pens here are indeed superbly made, I struggle to see any difference in them anymore. Clipless plastic sticks with a decent nib.
> Unfortunately they are all starting to look like clones to me. I could only name two unique fountain pen makers. Bruce Boone's stunning work and our friend with the unpronounceable name, MarioproperiaUrishiYokahomaOrSomething from Switzerland.



I don't want to derail the thread, but I'd like to think that my kitless work has become more than some cheap ripoff of someone else's ideas. In the beginning, when I didn't have clips or metals to add accents, I could see the "plastic stick" argument. We all have to start somewhere!


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## BradG (Mar 24, 2017)

skiprat said:


> Unfortunately they are all starting to look like clones to me. I could only name two unique fountain pen makers.



How dare you :biggrin:


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## Pierre--- (Mar 24, 2017)

skiprat said:


> I personally think fountain pens... have had their day and now are just a fashion statement. ( I can see the purists looking for a tree and a rope already)



No Sir, I can't agree with you. :tongue:

You exert pressure on a ballpoint, and the ink flows, if you don't it doesn't. This is the only feedback this stuff can give you. You can write in black, blue, red and even green if you have a good stationary shop. You usually use a medium point, you can find fine or bold after some research. 
With a rollerball, it is worse : you can press or not, hold it this or that way, up, down, on the left or on the right, it's just all the same. Absolutely no feedback. Schmidt can provide 12 colors (only M sized). You can find F or B point in black, sometime blue. 

If you write with a fountain pen, you can sense the paper. You can feel the flexibility of the nib and its elasticity (two different things a RB or BP are light years from), you can use steel or gold nibs, from superflex to rigid. You can have FFF, FF, F, M, B, BB, BBB, round italic, crisp italic, architect, stub, combined with oblique left or right, from 10 to 40° or more if you like. You can choose from say 500 different inks, different colors, different fluidities. 
So you can play with inks, papers, nibs according to your writing, your mood, the season, the recipient, the contents. It is much more richer than the RB or BP world. 

I know quite a few people (including myself) who sometime just sit and write some lines with a fountain pen just for feeling, pleasure, quietness, a return to themselves, sort of a meditation. I know nobody doing that with RB or BP. 

As a FP maker, smoothing the nib and sometimes shaping it to the customer's specs is a pleasure and an interesting skill to learn. 

So, I am a pacifist and will not look for a tree and a rope (hmm, well, does anybody has a mousetrap though? :cat: ), but please allow me to say that your opinion on fountain pens is not shared by the whole word. Even if I agree with the rest of your post. 

**   *   *   *   **​ 
Seth, I wish you plenty of pleasure with kitless. Do not listen to old rodents :biggrin:: RB, BP, FP, all are very interesting, and I suspect the latter is playing in a richer world.


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## Jgrden (Mar 25, 2017)

Bt, but, but .....  I cannot wait 'till night when sitting in my Mission Style chair, grabbing my sketch pad and my fountain pen and start sketching. My fountain pen has its place. It is not in my pocket. It floats between my desk and my easy chair. I love my Steampunk, all brass, custom made, hand crafted, kit-less fountain pen. If I ever get my hands on a metric tap and die set watch out !!!








The pen had been torn apart, sliced, diced, modified to the point that I could not offer it for sale. The I wrote with it and it was fantastic. so it is my keeper.

P.S.:  To show it how much I appreciate thepen, tomorrow it gets a real heavy plated 24 kt gold finial, left over from another pen.


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