# 'CA debonder', acetone, Meth, laws and our hobby.



## edstreet (Aug 13, 2013)

First let me start off by saying I do not advocate recreational drugs in any shape or form.  I would also like to add please be civil for this thread.

However, with meth production affecting how we buy many products, i.e. Pseudoephedrine, a.k.a. sudafed being 'behind the counter' and a national registry of buyers being checked with each and every purchase and a quantity limit imposed monthly.  It seems to be this is the future, where many things we buy is highly regulated, controlled and we must prove we need it.

There is some new products trying to be added to this discriminating practice.  This one happens to be acetone but I can assure you there are others as well.

This was a news article that I was made aware of about it.

CVS pharmacy screens buyers of nail polish remover



> Add nail polish remover to the list of consumer items now being screened in the battle against meth. CVS, the nation’s second-largest pharmacy chain by number of stores, is rolling out a policy at all of its 7,500 locations requiring that ID be shown when buying acetone-based nail polish remover — and limiting how many bottles may be bought at once.
> 
> “We are in the process of implementing this chainwide, beginning a few weeks ago,” CVS spokesman Michael DeAngelis told WBUR-TV in Boston.
> 
> ...



The quote is a direct copy/paste from the article.

Essentially what is of note is many of us use acetone, be it CA debonder or just raw acetone to clean metal, wood and the like with.  What would really suck is heavy regulation that affects our market due to these 'feel good laws'

I have bad allergies and I practically live on claratin-D.  Because of this I have had more grief, harassment and other similar problems over the years.  One recent case we had to involve the police to check the 'registry' to find out if someone was using my license fraudently (turned out to be an in store error).  If our industry is put under wraps like this there will be serious damage done.


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## LouF (Aug 13, 2013)

In my town Home Depot has stopped selling acetone, paint tinner,Naptha, MEK and a few others I asked why they said to much paper work. I asked my buddy that works there he says big brother is at it again all they carry is mineral spirits. 


Lou


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## PaulDoug (Aug 13, 2013)

I see in Oregon they keep spray paint and such locked up. You have to get an "Associate" to get it for you and they log it and I believe you may have to sign for it.  So far in my part of Washington that is not the case.  But I'm sure we will end up that way.  And the youngsters wonder why us old guys long for the "good old days".  You said keep it nice so I will end here...


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## ed4copies (Aug 13, 2013)

As a local radio personality said, "I never knew HOW to make drugs.  Now, I just have to have a list  of the things I can't buy and cruise the internet to see what ratio----that was smart????"

Did you know you can make "stink bombs" from match heads????  (One of my childhood pastimes).   Just wait, you will have to rub sticks together---in the name of progress, of course!!!

Foolishness!


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## Smitty37 (Aug 14, 2013)

Well It's our fault --- we voted in the turkeys who are doing this stuff.  All those regualtors need something to regulate.


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## bruce119 (Aug 14, 2013)

Hey Ed I know the PIA of buying Claratin-D. I use it daily to breath...I recently got denied at Walmart. They (the Gov.) has a site that keeps track you can sign into that shows you your last years history and limits. They got it rite down to a one-a-day. But I was not over the limit. Turns out Walmart has it's own yearly limit about a 7 month supply. I got my wife to buy a pack for my work-around.

Guess I will head out to Home Depot and stock up on some acetone...


.


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## edstreet (Aug 14, 2013)

Careful with that bruce, the law also says you can not buy it for others.  However I do agree with you that we should be able to.  This is just another example of good intentions being 'illegal' and one of those things where people can be burned.

I do know that other stores also has some type of limit as well like you mentioned on the 7 month thing.  I just had to switch to another pharmacy for that very reason which is grossly absurd.  Being able to goto one pharmacy and obtain everything and not having to sneak around to others just to buy something over the counter is insane. 

They are forcing everyone to get a prescription which means a doctor visit about 2-3 times a year just for some over the counter meds.  Not only does that become expensive but extra burden on the medical community when there is a doctor shortage.  May as well goto the auto mechanic every quarter just to be able to fill up the vehicle with fuel.

As for acetone goes the human body produces it.



> Acetone is produced and disposed of in the human body through normal metabolic processes. It is normally present in blood and urine. People with diabetes produce it in larger amounts. Reproductive toxicity tests show that it has low potential to cause reproductive problems. Pregnant women, nursing mothers and children have higher levels of acetone.
> 
> Since it is a byproduct of fermentation, acetone is a byproduct of the distillery industry.




In light of this the whole thing seems very silly and pointless but it's more reality than fiction which makes the whole of society seem mad.


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## JayLo (Aug 14, 2013)

Smitty37 said:


> Well It's our fault --- we voted in the turkeys who are doing this stuff.  All those regualtors need something to regulate.



Amen!


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## Tieflyer (Aug 14, 2013)

Punishing the law abiding for the crimes of law breakers doesn't even begin to touch the problem. Here's my real question though...if someone is smart enough to mix cold medicine, cat pee and gasoline to make a recreation drug, why don't we have cures for cancer and drive flying cars?


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## thewishman (Aug 14, 2013)

About 25 years ago in Illinois, the legislature was trying to pass a law that one could not buy a knife, larger that a steak knife, sharpened. Each knife, including kitchen knives, had to be purchased dull and taken to a separate business to have it sharpened. No "one stop" knife and sharpening stuff - two separate businesses.

This was supposed to allow people to cool off and reduce crimes of passion.

Imagine how safe Illinois would be if this law had been enacted.


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## Ed McDonnell (Aug 14, 2013)

You have to wonder whether the efforts to shut down the retail purchase of acetone (and other meth components) has more to do with protecting the profits of the big illegal drug cartels than stopping overall production of meth.  

Thinking like a drug lord "Why hire hit men to kill off all the little mom and pop meth labs and get law enforcement all up in my business, when I can get the government to eliminate my competition for less money (small bribes ... err .... campaign contributions) and no legal blow back on me?".

Not surprisingly, the EPA and various other regulatory agencies are making a push to get industry to switch to acetone from other solvents that are more damaging to the environment.  This will mean increased acetone production.  No problem for a drug lord to get a couple rail cars of acetone delivered right to their lab facilities.

Ed


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## StephenM (Aug 14, 2013)

Tieflyer said:


> Punishing the law abiding for the crimes of law breakers doesn't even begin to touch the problem. Here's my real question though...if someone is smart enough to mix cold medicine, cat pee and gasoline to make a recreation drug, why don't we have cures for cancer and drive flying cars?




Make them both illegal and we'd have them within a year.


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## Chasper (Aug 14, 2013)

I wasn't aware that acetone was a potential illegal drug ingredient.  I use acetone often.  Now that I am aware of the possible illegal use I feel compelled to say I support any and all reasonable efforts to regulate the precursors to illegal drug protection.  It is somewhat of an inconvenience to have my access to acetone limited or eliminated entirely,  but I'm more that willing to deal with that if it helps reduce access to illegal drug production.


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## ed4copies (Aug 14, 2013)

thewishman said:


> About 25 years ago in Illinois, the legislature was trying to pass a law that one could not buy a knife, larger that a steak knife, sharpened. Each knife, including kitchen knives, had to be purchased dull and taken to a separate business to have it sharpened. No "one stop" knife and sharpening stuff - two separate businesses.
> 
> This was supposed to allow people to cool off and reduce crimes of passion.
> 
> Imagine how safe Illinois would be if this law had been enacted.




Wow!!!  You suppose that would have stopped all the shootings in Chicago (highest in the country, they say)??
(The city with the most restrictive gun laws of all the major cities)


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## keithlong (Aug 14, 2013)

Yeah, I see it coming, stores are already announcing the pull off here too. Gotta stock up on acatone while we can still get it. What is going to be next?


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## The Penguin (Aug 14, 2013)

Chasper said:


> I wasn't aware that acetone was a potential illegal drug ingredient.  I use acetone often.  Now that I am aware of the possible illegal use I feel compelled to say I support any and all reasonable efforts to regulate the precursors to illegal drug protection.  It is somewhat of an inconvenience to have my access to acetone limited or eliminated entirely,  but I'm more that willing to deal with that if it helps reduce access to illegal drug production.


really?

how about we rigorously enforce the laws we already have instead of adding additional "feel good" laws to the books?


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## ed4copies (Aug 14, 2013)

Locally, we have an industrial supplier of many of the regulated chemicals.  You may be able to find such a place in your area.

We can buy nearly anything in gallon or five gallon.  Yes, we need to sign a paper saying what our legitimate use is (often cleaning copiers), but we CAN get it.


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## keithlong (Aug 14, 2013)

Back when I was working, retired in 2004, I was an offset press operator, done all the printing for a school system, bought mineral spirits and other cleaning products by the 5 gallon buckets. Used a lot of lacquer thinner in the cabinet shop as well. Never had an inkling that these would be used to make drugs with.


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## walshjp17 (Aug 14, 2013)

Acetone.  $10.25 a quart at Woodcraft.  No license needed -- just pay shipping or sales tax at your local store. :wink:


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## edstreet (Aug 14, 2013)

Chasper said:


> I wasn't aware that acetone was a potential illegal drug ingredient.  I use acetone often.  Now that I am aware of the possible illegal use I feel compelled to say I support any and all reasonable efforts to regulate the precursors to illegal drug protection.  It is somewhat of an inconvenience to have my access to acetone limited or eliminated entirely,  but I'm more that willing to deal with that if it helps reduce access to illegal drug production.



Interesting you said that.   Lets see what else can be used.

Soil in your backyard, by your very same logic you are in favor of denial of property ownership due to soil regulation to remotely 'help' curb the drug problem.

Your vehicle can also be used so by the same logic that would yield denial of auto purchases for the same reason.

Some other items that could fall under the same blanket statement you are willing to part with:

Internet and computer usage
Many cleaners on the market
many clothing on the market
rubbing alcohol
all drain cleaners
lithium batteries
rock salt
iodine
matchbook matches
Lye
Paint thinner
Aluminum foil
Glassware
Coffee filters
Propane tanks
Starter fluid (ether)
Gas additives (methanol)
Any product with HCL, yes Hydrocloric acid.  i.e. eye drops.
Sulfuric acid
phosphorus
brake fluid
most forms of fertilizer


All these strong swift stiff regulation and denial of freedoms because 0.1% of the population is doing something they should not. (national survey on drug and health 2010 statistics) 

Truth be known is drug users will still be drug users regardless of what law is passed or how many liberties is taken away.  Where there is a will there is a way.  Trampling on everyone's liberties does nothing to reduce the crime.

Wise man once said "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."


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## Russianwolf (Aug 14, 2013)

I can understand moving items that are "direct components" of a drug behind the counter and restricting the amount purchased/tracking purchases of those items. 

Tangentially related items. No.

So if Meth can't be made without Acetone, I could understand this. If its simply a solvent that they are using (and many other solvents could be used) then I don't understand it.


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## edstreet (Aug 14, 2013)

Russianwolf said:


> I can understand moving items that are "direct components" of a drug behind the counter and restricting the amount purchased/tracking purchases of those items.
> 
> Tangentially related items. No.
> 
> So if Meth can't be made without Acetone, I could understand this. If its simply a solvent that they are using (and many other solvents could be used) then I don't understand it.



That's just it.  It can even be made without pseudoephedrine from what I have been reading.  The justification for all these 'control laws' is to force retail outlets to work with police in identification of home made drug labs.  However many retail outlets have went well above and beyond and alienated the public with things like the previous mentioned 7 month supply / year.

Also I found this on acetone.


> In 2010, the worldwide production capacity for acetone was estimated at 6.7 million tonnes per year.[9] With 1.56 million tonnes per year, the United States had the highest production capacity,[10] followed by Taiwan and mainland China.


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## JerrySambrook (Aug 14, 2013)

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. This was written by Franklin, sometime shortly before February 17, 1775 as part of his notes for a proposition at the Pennsylvania Assembly, as published in Memoirs of the life and writings of Benjamin Franklin (1818). A variant of this was published as: Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. This was used as a motto on the title page of An Historical Review of the Constitution and Government of Pennsylvania. (1759); the book was published by Franklin; its author was Richard Jackson, but Franklin did claim responsibility for some small excerpts that were used in it.


An earlier variant by Franklin in Poor Richard's Almanack (1738): "Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor Liberty to purchase power."
 Many paraphrased derivatives of this have often become attributed to Franklin: They that can give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
 They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
 Those Who Sacrifice Liberty For Security Deserve Neither.
 He who would trade liberty for some temporary security, deserves neither liberty nor security.
 He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither.
 People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.
 If we restrict liberty to attain security we will lose them both.
 Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.
 He who gives up freedom for safety deserves neither.
 Those who would trade in their freedom for their protection deserve neither.
 Those who give up their liberty for more security neither deserve liberty nor security


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## jsolie (Aug 14, 2013)

For some reason, I really like this quote. While at the same time, not liking this quote.  But it seems appropriate given the penchant of our government regulators looking for things to regulate. For our own good, of course.



> “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.”
> -- C. S. Lewis, English essayist & novelist (1898 - 1963)


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## Janster (Aug 14, 2013)

*Acetone?????*

Just bought a gallon today at Home Depot. A quart of DNA too. FWIW, I am in Nevada.


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## Teeball (Aug 14, 2013)

And now our Attorney General wants to reduce jail time for people who sell drugs. Is something wrong here or is it just me.


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## Penultimate (Aug 14, 2013)

Ed and Bruce
I used to buy OTC generic allergy pills from Canada for about 1/4 the cost. The Canadian online pharms have cross references to the name brands.


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## LouF (Aug 14, 2013)

I don't want to get anyone started but have any of you noticed the Ammo shortage here in California and Nevada the most popular sizes are hard to get even 22cal there is none to sell. I better shut up big brother may be around.


Lou


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## edstreet (Aug 14, 2013)

Ammo shortage is not just in one area, it is nation wide.  Currently there is something over 1 billion primers made per month. most all of that is going into manufacturing of live ammunition on the commercial scale.  This is why the reloading sector has taken a serious hit.  12 billion domestic made for consumer use, 2 billion for war effort, something like 2 billion for gov usage (per year), 3-4 billion imported for consumer use.

With the recent near doubling of the number of consumers there has been a very serious demand increase for these items.


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## Jerryz (Aug 14, 2013)

I'm in favor of legalizing almost all drugs for adults. If an adult wants to become a meth head or a tweaked... Have at it! Who am I to day no? Now, if they steal, commit some other crime to support their habit, then enforce that. And no I don't do drugs.


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## Smitty37 (Aug 14, 2013)

Chasper said:


> I wasn't aware that acetone was a potential illegal drug ingredient. I use acetone often. Now that I am aware of the possible illegal use I feel compelled to say I support any and all reasonable efforts to regulate the precursors to illegal drug protection. It is somewhat of an inconvenience to have my access to acetone limited or eliminated entirely, but I'm more that willing to deal with that if it helps reduce access to illegal drug production.


A little incovenience for this, a little inconvenience for that and sooner than one might think life is totally controlled by Big Brother.


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## PaulDoug (Aug 14, 2013)

Jerryz said:


> I'm in favor of legalizing almost all drugs for adults. If an adult wants to become a meth head or a tweaked... Have at it! Who am I to day no? Now, if they steal, commit some other crime to support their habit, then enforce that. And no I don't do drugs.



Yes and tax the heck out of it.  Might as well get something out of them.


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## maxwell_smart007 (Aug 15, 2013)

Discussion of drugs, legalization of drugs, voting, snide political comments, and items of a similar nature are not appropriate for the IAP.  

Andrew
assistant moderator


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## Ted Smith (Aug 15, 2013)

"Discussion of drugs, legalization of drugs, voting, snide political comments, and items of a similar nature are not appropriate for the IAP. 

Andrew
assistant moderator"

In that case please cancel my account.


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## Dan Hintz (Aug 15, 2013)

There's no cancellation, Ted... just stop logging in.


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## BradG (Aug 15, 2013)

I use ALOT of chemicals which are restricted to most. Albeit I know what im doing with them and store them under lock and key, separated by organics & inorganics ... poisons & toxins ... the Cyanide gets its very own locked box too. I wont be silly enough to post my sources here... but with the way of the world being now of a digital era, it doesn't take much searching to find someone who is willing to post it to you. The majority of the time it comes by a standard courier too... which I do frown upon. If one of these packages were to be crushed by a heavy item and a courier got it all over his/her hands... dread to imagine.


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## edstreet (Aug 15, 2013)

BradG said:


> I use ALOT of chemicals which are restricted to most. Albeit I know what im doing with them and store them under lock and key, separated by organics & inorganics ... poisons & toxins ... the Cyanide gets its very own locked box too. I wont be silly enough to post my sources here... but with the way of the world being now of a digital era, it doesn't take much searching to find someone who is willing to post it to you. The majority of the time it comes by a standard courier too... which I do frown upon. If one of these packages were to be crushed by a heavy item and a courier got it all over his/her hands... dread to imagine.



This is the very reason why there is a 'hazmat' shipping.  If you have not seen the setup they have specialized equipment and training to deal with hazardous materials like you mentioned.  

As for standard shipment goes if it's well enough to ship that route then it's not that 'bad' overall.  Also worth noting is that 'lock and key' will not stop what you are trying to prevent.


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## BradG (Aug 15, 2013)

With all due respects,  how do you know what im trying to prevent? I think you will find a lock and key will stop children opening the cabinet.

I am the recipient, not the dispatcher. If I were dispatching I would be using hazmat courier though its out of my control.

Furthermore I can assure you 93% fuming sulphuric acid what burns your skin in less than 20 seconds shouldnt come by standard post.

Sorry ed but found your post extremely patronising.


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## CHARLES STOPCZYNSKI (Aug 15, 2013)

*Bought it today in Lawrenceville, GA*

I was all set to go to Lowes and buy some.  Had a friend come to town for a Dr visit and asked to go to HD to pick something up while he was here.  I took him, and while we were in the paint dept I took a look.  Had acetone in quarts and gallons.  

Bought a quart to de bond permanent magnets from a steel crescent where they are mounted in computer hard drives.  You do not need the acetone to remove them from the drive.  Only the plate that they are mounted on, which removes with a screw or two.

If you need some really powerful, small magnets and don't mind taking apart an old hard drive you will get 1 or two from each.  You only need a mini torx driver, which HD also sells.  

PLEASE USE CAUTION AAROUND THESE NEW RARE EARTH MAGNETS!  THEY'RE EXTREMELY POWERFUL.  EYE PROTECTION MUST BE USED!!! THEY ARE METAL PLATED, LOOK LIKE SANDBLASTED CHROME FINISH (LIGHT FLASH PLATING).  Caution about pinching yourself.  MORE IMPORTANTLY DO NOT ALLOW THESE TO SLIDE TOWARDS ONE ANOTHER OR SOME STEEL.   They impact hard and can shatter.  After some time the old 3/4 " diameter magnet I purchased in a set many years ago that I park the chuck key for my drill press upon has managed to peel.  The scaly peels are also sharp.

Charlie
30043


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## Haynie (Aug 15, 2013)

I've not had an issue purchasing any wood working related equipment around here.  All of the stores have also removed the lock from the spray paint.  Photo chemicals, on the other hand have required forms listing intent of use and extra shipping costs.  Price of doing what I want to do.  All my chems are either not in the house at all, but up at the shop, or under lock and key.  With children in the house it is the smart thing to do.


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## edstreet (Aug 15, 2013)

BradG said:


> With all due respects,  how do you know what im trying to prevent? I think you will find a lock and key will stop children opening the cabinet.
> 
> I am the recipient, not the dispatcher. If I were dispatching I would be using hazmat courier though its out of my control.
> 
> ...



Sorry was not meant to sound patronizing at all.  I was simply pointed out that a lock/key does not keep people out, that goes with kids and thieves.  Sure if the kid is a toddler then a locked door would likely work but kids getting into locked doors is very trivial.  My point was don't over exaggerate the usefulness of a lock as that is very low.  A lock is simply to keep an honest person honest, nothing more.


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## Smitty37 (Aug 15, 2013)

edstreet said:


> BradG said:
> 
> 
> > With all due respects, how do you know what im trying to prevent? I think you will find a lock and key will stop children opening the cabinet.
> ...


I have some locks that I'd give a lot to see a kid defeat...In the Navy we used to call a heavy duty set of bolt cutters "the master key" I've had some locks since then that you won't cut with bolt cutters and you'd have to be a lot better than the average kid to pick them as well.  Locks are used because they work.  Locked doors won't keep someone out who is determined to get in but they do keep some theives out because the thief won't take the time required to beat the lock.


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## Dan Hintz (Aug 16, 2013)

Locks do not keep "honest people honest" as an honest person wouldn't need the lock in the first place... they keep lazy thieves out.


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## Smitty37 (Aug 16, 2013)

Dan Hintz said:


> Locks do not keep "honest people honest" as an honest person wouldn't need the lock in the first place... *they keep lazy thieves out*.


 True, when we lived in a small town in upstate NY we never locked our doors - the only breakin we ever had was was a couple of the boys in our youngest daughters' class came in after they'd been drinking at a graduation party .... actually one of them "broke out" he'd come in through an open back door, but "escaped" out the window of our son's bedroom breaking the window.


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## THarvey (Aug 16, 2013)

I buy acetone at beauty shop supply stores (Sally's, Salone Supply).  Last I bought was $3.99 a quart in plastic bottles.  No license needed and they keep it in stock.


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## Scruffy (Aug 16, 2013)

*I wonder...*

1.  Is Colorado going to legalize medical acetone?

2. Is California going to make sure Home Depot cards you for buying light bulbs?


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