# Attention: DC Bluesman; Penworks Maybe Others



## Fangar (Jul 24, 2006)

Hey guys,

On of our members (Bdar) directed my attention to an ebay listing on Ebay Australia where the seller used all of work in his listing.  he does not claim it as his own, but I did not give him permission to use mine.  I am thinking the same goes for you.  Anyway I thought I would make a post here as there are a few others that I don't recognize.  Maybe some of our members too.  I notified Ebay and the seller.  We will see what happens. To be honest, I really wouldn't care too much I guess other than this comment made in response to a question levied by I believe, Alamocdc (Billy):



> Q: 	For your information, I recognize four of the six examples of pens you used to show what this workstation can do, and you didn't make any of them. I also know the four individuals who did. This is copyright infringement and will be reported to eBay. Respectfully, an20
> 
> A: 	For your information, if you read my listing correctly you will note that nowhere in the wording does it state that I made the pens used as examples of the craft, nor does it infer that I made them on the said equipment. Also the photos are clearly labled as Examples of Turned Pens and Woodcraft. It DOES NOT STATE examples of MY turned pens and woodcraft. To the best of my knowledge there is no copyright infringement as these photos were obtained from the public domain. However if I knew who the copyright belonged to, I would give them credit. Regards, CalliaConnection



I normally don't link back and forth between any two forums, but in this instance, I wanted to keep others informed:

Pen Shop Thread.

Cheers,

Fangar


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## Dario (Jul 24, 2006)

Can anyone please post the eBay usename or a sample listing?

The link says it is only for registered users...though I am one, I think it is not fair to force others to join just to check this out.  Below is the error message I got:

=========================================================
Access Denied 
 The Pen Shop : Access Denied

Sorry, only members with sufficient permission can access this page.
=========================================================

Thank you,


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## vick (Jul 24, 2006)

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250011041716&ru=http%3A%2F%2Fsearch.ebay.com.au%3A80%2Fsearch%2Fsearch.dll%3Ffrom%3DR40%26satitle%3D250011041716%26fvi%3D1


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## mrcook4570 (Jul 24, 2006)

It looks like they may have used another service to generate the ad.  You may want to contact them as well.  All of their pictures are being hoseted by spoonfeeder.com


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## Dario (Jul 24, 2006)

The nerve of that seller!!! [!]


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## Fangar (Jul 24, 2006)

Sorry about the penshop issue.  

Thanks Vick for the link.

Fangar


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## gerryr (Jul 24, 2006)

My god, do we need to start putting a copyright statement on all photo postings on this site?  If he copied them the individual websites, then he is breaking copyright law.  Then again, he's in Australia so who knows what their laws are about that.


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## JimGo (Jul 24, 2006)

Gerry, their laws are pretty much the same as ours with respect to copyrights.


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## alamocdc (Jul 24, 2006)

James is correct, the question posed was mine (my ebay user name is an20) after Darren (aka bdar) brought this to our attention. As you can tell, he really doesn't think he is in error here, but both James and I also reported this infringment to ebay.


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## PenWorks (Jul 24, 2006)

Thanks for the heads up. I guess nothing is sacred no more.
I sent him an e mail asking him to remove my pic.
that is unless he can sell them for more than me []


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## wdcav1952 (Jul 24, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Dario_
> <br />The nerve of that seller!!! [!]


Dario, you are just like me.  I'm upset too that he didn't like any of mine enough to steal the pix!  [][][][][][][][]

p.s. In case someone doesn't realize it, the above is a joke.


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## wood-of-1kind (Jul 24, 2006)

> _Originally posted by gerryr_
> <br />My god, do we need to start putting a copyright statement on all photo postings on this site?  If he copied them the individual websites, then he is breaking copyright law.



Ron Mc is doing this at the bottom of his postings but I very much doubt that it will stop people like this guy on e-bay. Some people believe that copyright laws are there to be violated. Attorney JIMGO, your comments are now welcomed.

-Peter-[]


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## timdaleiden (Jul 24, 2006)

> _Originally posted by PenWorks_
> <br />Thanks for the heads up. I guess nothing is sacred no more.
> I sent him an e mail asking him to remove my pic.
> that is unless he can sell them for more than me []



Maybe you should ask him to use this pic instead...






<br />


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## Dario (Jul 24, 2006)

> _Originally posted by wdcav1952_
> <br />
> 
> 
> ...



LOL.  Good one William!!!

I guess you can look at it that way and the ones he used the pics should be "honored" []


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## penhead (Jul 24, 2006)

I was just reading this thread, checked out the ebay link, and he has closed his auction already (early it states at ebay).




> _Originally posted by timdaleiden_
> <br />
> 
> 
> ...


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## Fangar (Jul 25, 2006)

You guys crack me up.  He did end the listing.  He started a new listing and put a rude little disclaimer in it.  What a turd...

http://tinyurl.com/hnjo2

Fangar


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## jaywood1207 (Jul 25, 2006)

Turd Fangar.  I bet that's not the word you wanted to use.[]  Does the fact that he changed his auction indicate him admitting he was wrong.  I think so.  It's too bad he had to slam everybody that brought it up as a concern though and indicate that it was as a result of the "USA ebay users".


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## RogerGarrett (Jul 25, 2006)

The seller's claim, and his ebay lister's claims that they did nothing wrong because they used disclaimers is absolutely incorrect.

Copyright law prevents a person from taking something off of the internet and using it for their own financial gain.  In fact, you can't legally take someone else's work without permission from the copyright holder.  No one needs a disclaimer on their picture to allow them to successfully win a lawsuit, but the disclaimer that some people add to their pictures is a good preventitive measure to remind a person not to take and use the picture without apporpriate permission.

When I first started out on the internet with a website, I had a student set it up for me through my personal account provided by my university.  I liked the final results.  Unbeknownst to me, the student had stolen some background (he didn't know that what he was doing was wrong) from another baton maker's site, and I was eventually contacted by that attorney to give me the opportunity to remove that wallpaper from my website.  My response was - "I will contact the party who designed and installed the website and let him know of the concern.  I do not know how he designed the site, nor do I know his sources for the artwork for the site.  I will let you know what he says."

The background was replaced, and the attorney thanked me.  I wasn't ticked at the guy - I was grateful that he contacted me at all before filing a legal complaint.  

James did the right thing - and their disclaimer on the new eBay ad really does demonstrate one thing........

The guy is a turd.[}]


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## alamocdc (Jul 25, 2006)

> _Originally posted by RogerGarrett_
> <br />James did the right thing - and their disclaimer on the new eBay ad really does demonstrate one thing........
> 
> The guy is a turd.[}]



Yeah... a big smelly one! Even though ebay thought it wrong enough to have him relist it, he tries to defend his errant position with a slam those who took offense.


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## rtjw (Jul 25, 2006)

I think THE MAFIA ought to put a hit out on him![]


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## johncrane (Jul 25, 2006)

I agree Fangar he'is a turd and most likely too dumb to make a pen thats why he'selling up.maybe Im wrong after all he did pickout some of the best pens.


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## johncrane (Jul 25, 2006)

Fangar I would send e/bay a bill.


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## Dario (Jul 25, 2006)

I thought we have one on the forum who "<b>takes care of FAMILY business</b>"  Is that Ron? [}] LOL


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## Fangar (Jul 25, 2006)

I just received an email from him.  Obviously he sniped the photos from this forum and reads it.  His email stated:



> "There was nothing rude about the disclaimer. Get over it."



You are right after all.  Sometimes my ethics and due respect for the intellectual property of others gets in the way of my judgment. []

I should be flattered that you felt that my work was nice enough for you to thieve without permission.  Unfortunately your listing was in error  as  your toy bandsaw would not have made it halfway through the burl that I used to make the desk set base.  I also donâ€™t see a router in the listing.  But not knowing about tools and woodcraft in general, we can only appreciate your naivety.  

I should have also known in advance that your uneducated response to my inquiry regarding MY work and MY photos would have been as such.  Using my powers of insight and observation, I must only derive from the fact that you pulled your original listing from Ebay that you now realize your lapse in judgment. [:I]

I should have also known that you would have only responded to the original questions from myself and others by re-listing your item with a large one sided red disclaimer.  Your wording shows evidence of your misunderstanding of laws and insecurities to stand by your decisions, however wrong they might have been.  

The main issue in this instance was never really the photos.  Anyone here knows that if you had only asked permission, I would have likely allowed the use of my work.  My only issue arises out of your pompous responses to the inquiries made by myself and others.  

I am sorry that after only 3 months of use that you realized your tools would be better off with someone that knows how to at least turn them on. [B)]  

Cheers,

Fangar


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## alamocdc (Jul 25, 2006)

DOH!


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## gerryr (Jul 25, 2006)

Great shot, James.


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## RogerGarrett (Jul 25, 2006)

WARNING - VERY LONG POST



> _Originally posted by Fangar_
> <br />I just received an email from him.  Obviously he sniped the photos from this forum and reads it.  His email stated:
> 
> 
> ...



To respond to the fellow who wrote the original email to James with the quote above, I think many would agree with me when I say that rudeness is determined primarily by those in a group who can agree or disagree as to how they interpreted the allegedly rude comment or comments.  Rudeness is not a judgement that often comes prior to a decision to say something - by the person who says it.  It is most often determined by the party or parties who were offended .  Therefore, the "Turd" can't actually have a qualified or objective  opinion compared to the collective group which was offended and angered by the "Turd's" inability to see that he made an ethical, moral, and legal mistake.  His designation as a "Turd" is based completely upon his response to James - not the fact that he made a mistake.  We all make mistakes - it is how we deal with them in life that defines who and what we are.

I'll give two examples:

Last month, a fellow from CA emailed me with a single sentence that read, "May I purchase a piece of Graphite from you for a baton?"  I responded that I didn't sell just the graphite.  He responded several days later with a single sentence that said, "Can I hire you to make a baton from graphite with a cork handle?"  I responded that I only worked with batons with wood handles.  He eventually asked for my graphite supplier, and I responded that I couldn't provide that name - that I had invested a large amount of money in developing graphite shafts in varying sizes and thicknesses for my batons and that he should contact fishing pole suppliers to do some research.  He responded by sarcastically implying that I wasn't much of a colleague.  I noticed that he is a professional conductor of a professional symphony orchestra in CA, so I responded with a factual account of what it takes to build a multi-faceted business - the capital involved, and the time commitment to create products that people can use and will recommend to others.  I expected him to blow me off - but he apologized and offered to purchase a baton.  I told him I would not only make him a baton to specs but that I would make an additional  freebie with a wood shaft - and I apologized for my long-winded (who thinks I am long winded??????) response to him.  End result - he loved the baton and recommended it to others. 

Second story - I remember being on a listserv for musicians who specialize in my particular instrument that included a world-wide professional in the field.  He was from England (not that his country really matters - the  Brits are great!) - so perhaps he felt protected whenever he drank too much and made comments about Americans, Aussies, etc.  I gave away the CDs I had of his performances to students, and I chose not to engage conversation with a person who was obviously so poorly schooled on manners, ethics, and basic civil respect for others.  Eventually I (and many others) left that listserv because of this fellow's behavior - and I would expect that this guy has made a mess of his reputation in many ways.  

But - I digress.  I guess I was just trying to make James feel ok for running into this guy - and to be happy that all that happened was that they guy was so indignant that he couldn't simply say, "I'm sorry - I didn't know - but I will make up for it."  []

Best,
Roger Garrett (a former Turd who sometimes forgets)


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## GBusardo (Jul 25, 2006)

Guy has got brass.......   If the guy played his cards right, I am sure someone in this forum would have allowed the use of their pictures for maybe a payment of some advertising of their site.  Anyway, if it were me, I got to say I would be proud if someone had used my pens as an example,   but i would want credit for making the pen, at least.
Gary


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## DCBluesman (Jul 25, 2006)

There are many sides to a story.  There are many misunderstandings and interpretations along our paths.  My treatment by this seller was exceptional. (Note:  _Emphasis added_.)  





> Dear Lou,
> 
> Unfortunately yours was the only kind response I received and I have to thank you for that. I intended no malice towards the others but they responded so harshly from the outset (some whose photos were not even used) that it shocked me. _My only reason for using the photos to begin with was because I thought they were such beautiful examples._ I certainly did not intend to try and pass the work off as my own.
> 
> ...



Just another side to consider.


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## gerryr (Jul 25, 2006)

There are some people who are so egotistical that no matter what any number of other people may think, they believe they can say or do anything and it should just be accepted as perfectly OK.  These same people are really so insecure that they feel the need to justify their poor behavior with statements like "get over it," which really means "please don't remind me that I screwed up again."  I think this individual fits that, after all look at the toys he bought to try to make pens.[:0]


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## wpenm (Jul 25, 2006)

Lou, Thank you for posting this response. It gives a better picture of what happened.I applaud the way you handled this.


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## RogerGarrett (Jul 25, 2006)

> My only reason for using the photos to begin with was because I thought they were such beautiful examples. I certainly did not intend to try and pass the work off as my own.



This is a great start!  He should tell this to the person whose work he copied and used.  He seems to recognize the mistake - just say this kind of stuff.  



> Yes, it was probably wrong to not ask permission first, but I really didn't think anyone would mind that much. I certainly did not expect the vitriol I received and some of the remarks on the forum are bordering on defamatory.



The problem here is that, once informed it was copyright infringement, he should have taken care of it in a way that showed that he was concerned - rather than wait for someone to be nice after the fact.  Ignorance of the law...............

I'm trying to imagine the scenario:

Judge - I know that I should not have used someone else's work to demonstrate possible artwork that could be created from equipment that I sell, but I just didn't think they would mind if I didn't take the time to find out who to credit or if there were any laws that I should know about.

Judge responds:  I understand.  I appreciate your concerns and your sincerity.  Pay the plantiff $1000.00.



> I would have gladly given everyone credit, but since most were threatening litigation and demands of removal from the start, I had no choice but to pull the listing.



Oops - and then relist and say rude things.........



> It is an unfortunate circumstance that I think has been blown out of all proportion. I would have much preferred to give credit captions on the photos and promote the makers work had they simply asked like yourself.



Two things - first, the fellow needs to assume some of the responsibility for blowing it out of proportion by responding in an inappropriate way.  Secondly, he wrongly assumes that giving credit is the answer.  If he profits from the use of copyrighted material, the ethical, moral, and responsibly legal thing to do is to offer a percentage and hope that they person whose work was "stolen" (even without understanding) would simply offer to allow for credit to be given rather than payment.  That assumption is not reasonable.



> It's getting to be a very harsh world we live in these days, people tend to shoot first and ask questions later, and everyone gets aggravated. The Internet and Ebay are a minefield of rules and regulations.



With good reason.  Despite good intentions of many, there are lots of people in the world who will steal someone's work and profit from that work.  Napster comes to mind.  Being a professional musician and educator, I become a bit non-plussed when people want to copy my commercial CD instead of purchase a copy.  Imagine my surprise to receive a copy of a Music Education Quarterly that contains an article I wrote and submitte online - without permission.  Worse - I get kind of crabby when folks plagerize my writings, articles, etc. without giving credit or, worse, a percentage of any profit that they might make from my work.  Our university kicks studenets out of school for serious plagerizing.  Someone has to let these folks know what is right and wrong.  If they still don't get it - there are laws that exist specifically for these reasons.  

If I get caught doing 85 in a 65 and I was doing it purposefully (which of course, I would never do []) and I was pulled over by a cop, I wouldn't get mad and be short with the cop for doing his job. Despite the larger ticket I might receive, it just isn't mature! 



> I thought my explanation was reasonable in the disclaimer and did apologise in the new listing, apparently it was not good enough for some and they are still baying for blood.



Not baying for blood - but there isn't anything wrong with discussing on a list such as this that some poor, uninformed soul was wrong and should take responsibility and make ammends.   I'm looking for an, "I'm very sorry - I made a mistake."  No judge or jury is going to do anything to someone who acts that way - and most people would say - hey - thanks for recognizing the problem - I'll look for you to take care of it online.

BTW - this isn't a rant - but I might go jump in a lake anyway.  

Best,
Roger Garrett


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## rtjw (Jul 25, 2006)

I'd like to see the letter Lou wrote to him. Could you post that lou?


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## alamocdc (Jul 25, 2006)

I was one of the first to question him (James references it in the first post of this thread). Was I harsh? I didn't think so. I've long been an ebay seller (not my pens BTW) and a violation is a violation. However, in retrospect I suppose I could have simply contacted those who's pens I recognized and let them deal with it. Would it have changed anything? I doubt it.


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## Fangar (Jul 25, 2006)

Here is mine.  I don't see it as harsh.  You decide.  I think it is to the point, and non threatening other than I would report it to Ebay.  Keep in mind that this was sent after Billy emailed him, and with his response to Billy in mind:



> I made the desk set and another of the pens that you have used in this listing. You definately used my work without my permission. I will be contacting Ebay regarding this. Just so that you know, there is definately an issue with you using photos that do not belong to you. It is also prohibitted by Ebay's user policy. Cheers. Fangar



Fangar


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## rtjw (Jul 25, 2006)

Thanks Fangar for putting up your letter. Maybe Billy will also.
Since Lou was the only one that said the opposite of everyone else, I just wanted to see his letter to see what changed the guys attitude. Of course, Lou is more knowledgeable about issues like this![]


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## DCBluesman (Jul 25, 2006)

> Dear Sir or Madam:
> 
> In the body of this sale you use a photograph of a pen which was made by me. The photograph appears on my website, www.heritagepens.com . I usually prefer to be contacted for permission to use my photographs, but I don't stand on a lot of ceremony. In order to keep things on the up and up, would you mind labeling my pen. It is the one on the extreme right hand side of the top row.
> 
> ...


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## ed4copies (Jul 25, 2006)

Once again showing that Lou always tries to be a gentleman!  Even answers questions from those whom a lesser man (like me) would have ignored.


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## rtjw (Jul 25, 2006)

> _Originally posted by ed4copies_
> <br />Once again showing that Lou always tries to be a gentleman!  Even answers questions from those whom a lesser man (like me) would have ignored.







<br />


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## RogerGarrett (Jul 25, 2006)

> <br />



I know it is off subject, but can someone tell me how to get and use graphics such as the laughing picture above???  I have not had any luck with these in regular email, but I would sure like to be able to use them sometimes........

Best,
Roger Garrett


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## vick (Jul 25, 2006)

[?img] http://www.penturners.org/olduploads/rtjw/2006725222130_Laughing.gif[/img?]
I added ? in the img tags so that the code would show.  I would not recomend linking to Johnny's up load but loading a picture your self.

You should just be able to upload a picture in your post no coding necessary, but this example would show you how to link to a stored picture.


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## rtjw (Jul 25, 2006)

Okay, first you have to download what ever smiley you want to post. Make sure it is a gif file. the just upload it like you would a picture.

Most of the smiley's here are the small smileys. You can download a lot from smiley central. It makes it easier for you to express yourself and have a little fun at the same time. Although, some will take offense to some smiley's so you have to watch out. 





<br />


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## Thumbs (Jul 26, 2006)

How do you copyright something?  Is there a legal process or do you just say that's mine first?


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## rtjw (Jul 26, 2006)

http://www.copyright.gov


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## JimGo (Jul 26, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Thumbs_
> <br />How do you copyright something?  Is there a legal process or do you just say that's mine first?


Bob, the simple answer to your question is "yes".  At a very high level, and oversimplifying things a bit, copyrights inure to the author/creator of a work the moment the work is reduced to a tangible form.  Thus, the first time you write your memoirs, create a sculpture, take a photograph, etc., you have the right to protect others from copying the unique aspects of that work.  However, to get into court, you need to take the extra step of registering the work with the Copyright office.

Johnny's link to the U.S. Copyright Office has a lot more specific info.  Their site is pretty well set up and is fairly understandable (which is a surprise!).


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## RogerGarrett (Jul 26, 2006)

> _Originally posted by rtjw_
> <br />Okay, first you have to download what ever smiley you want to post. Make sure it is a gif file. the just upload it like you would a picture.
> 
> 
> ...



Where do you download from?  I recall asking Scott about his turning graphic that shows a remarkable likeness of him in cartoonish form turning at a lathe........but the graphic has to come from somewhere.....

Sorry if I'm not quite up to date on computer stuff - it isn't my strength......

Best,
Roger[]


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## rtjw (Jul 26, 2006)

www.smileycentral.com


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## DFM (Jul 26, 2006)

If anyone has any questions regarding copyrights and the protections granted should contact their lawyer.  A brief and simple discussion with a lawyer in advance will save a lot of heart burn later.  

I don't think a pen is copyright-able because a patent is the better protection for an object of ordinary use. The photos we take of our pens are protected by the copyright legislation.


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## alamocdc (Jul 26, 2006)

> _Originally posted by rtjw_
> <br />Thanks Fangar for putting up your letter. Maybe Billy will also.
> Since Lou was the only one that said the opposite of everyone else, I just wanted to see his letter to see what changed the guys attitude. Of course, Lou is more knowledgeable about issues like this![]



Johnny, mine is the quote that James used in the first post of this thread.


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## RogerGarrett (Jul 27, 2006)

> _Originally posted by rtjw_
> <br />www.smileycentral.com



Thanks.

Couldn't get it to work here, but I got it to work in Mozilla Thunderbird email.

Best,
Roger Garrett


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