# the new cheap crapola grade pen lines bother me



## redfishsc (Oct 25, 2007)

These new "lines" of pens by PSI ("funline) and "Artisan" (CSA) bother me. 


Mind you, I have never bought a single one and never will. I do not, and refuse to, sell anything 24K plated or something a company is not willing to back with a guarantee (such as the PSI funlines, they do not back the platings). 

So now why does CSA offer a cheaper grade of pen and claim it to be the same quality as the other pens? If the price is HALF of it's more costly counterpart (ie, the non-"artisan" 24K slimlines and euros), I can assure you it's NOT as good a quality pen. Something was sacrificed. Perhaps the plating is the same with CSA pens (still 24K trash) but **something** somewhere went down the drain, just simple economics. 



But I think what worries me more is the number of people who sell lousy grade 24K pens just because they can get the pens cheaper. I have had several people look at the slimlines I offer and say something about one they bought a few years ago from someone else and all the plating rotted off of it. I have to assure them that Ti gold won't (though it can be scratched, it won't rub off).

So maybe this is a rant, but I would prefer these companies understand that it is in THEIR best interest to sell only top-notch pen kits, because the more pen makers selling dumpster-grade pens for $30+ is going really tarnish the image of kit pen makers, as I have seen already.

Just to lay all my cards on the table, I simply do not and will not sell pens that are plated with 24K or 10K or any "upgrade gold"--- I ONLY and I mean ONLY sell Ti gold if they want "gold". I do also use black ti, chrome, rhodium/platinum, and even jet black and satin nickel, but the latter two come with an exhortation to take care of them since they can be scratched, but still nothing compared to the way the 24K pens deteriorate. This policy has really bolstered my product image and give me peace of mind that a customer won't be calling me back about how decrepid his pen plating looks, and peace of mind that all those gift pens I gave away last year at Christmas still look good a year later.


......



Ah.... I feel much better now!!!


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## ctwxlvr (Oct 25, 2007)

I have to say I have some TI gold pens where I have had to replace the tip due to the "gold" wearing off, so far the company I have purchased them from has warrantied them ... one looked like defective plating, the other was pure wear, and had only been made 2 months and in use one.


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## alparent (Oct 25, 2007)

I'm on the same page as you are. The 24k pens I purchased when I first started are only given as gifts and with an explanation on the plating. Same thing go's for people that want special clips. The only pen I do sell in 24k are the one's that don't come in better plating. But I always inform my clients of what to expect.

I wish all pen models where offered in good plating.  If they keep making the kit....they must be selling them? Why not make them also in better plating?


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## rherrell (Oct 25, 2007)

Amen, Brother Redfish! I agree!


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## GBusardo (Oct 25, 2007)

I am not sure what to think. The gold plated pen (not sure if its 10K or 24K) I have been using for months and months (quite a few) does have some scratches but no real wear.  I am not easy on my pens. 
I have some Rhodium plated pens that looked bumpy right out of the bag and some chrome pens that have had their issues. 
As far as platings, I have some real questions. What really concerns me is that since the advent of the cheaper plated pens, whose to say that the cheapy pen kits have not infiltrated  the more expensive the bins of sellers. The sellers may not even be aware of what they are selling. 
Am I nuts?  Am I the only one who has started to notice a quality difference in the platings of kits?


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## arioux (Oct 25, 2007)

Hi,

I'm having the same question.  We all know that 24k or 10k gold wont usuall last, altough i had some PSI 24k that were surprisingly resistant.  A good point for PSI, they say and admit that their funline is cheap (no garantee).  As CSUSA with their apprentice line.  What really woory me, is the fact that there are more and more resellers, with slim pen in the $1.50 - $1.75 price range with supposely high plating (black Ti and Rhodium).  This is the price range of the PSI "funline" and CSU apprentice.

Something is wrong, terribly wrong.  I sell a lot a slimline around here and i really start to feel "unconfident", as to when will it come back with problems because i bought some of those "hey wow, nice bargain price" kit.

How can i know if my Ti gold pen is really TI gold?
How can i make the difference between black TI and gun metal or black chrome
Chrome or rhodium?

Psi migh not have the best kit around but at least you know you have two grade.
CSU made it clear too with their apprentice line.

What grade do we get from the others ?

More and more reseller are having their hown line of exclusive plating, to try to grab their part of the market.  Many of them deal directly with the plan in china or wherever they will get the cheaper cost to atttract us.

Quality control?  no way at $0.81 a kit (That Reizling co.)

Rhodium at $1.59....I say no way 
Black TI at $1.59 ....I say no way

Now why PSI and CSU goes to this market?  Because someone ask for them and buy them or their market study said got for it, there is a market out there.

Ouf.......  i need my prosac and sorry if i offended anyone that like and use those kit but i really don't think they will last.

Hey,,, I just made my first real rant on IAP [}]

Alfred


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## ed4copies (Oct 25, 2007)

Can you spell 

<center>PROFIT MARGIN!!</center>

CSUSA, Berea and PSI have had NO competition for years.  They have all made a nice living buying pens at $1 and selling them to us for $5.  NOW, there are Chinese suppliers going AROUND them.

The future will be interesting (An ancient Chinese curse, I am told, is "May you live in interesting times!").  But don't kid yourselves.  There most certainly IS the possibility that YOUR favorite suppliers have been marking the product UP 500%!!   WHICH, I believe, is a DROP IN THE BUCKET compared with the markup on the Emperor and it's ilk.

PSI has always been the "budget line".  Notice how long their Majestic held it's $50 price tag???  YOU THINK THE PEN HAS CHANGED????  NO, they want to MOVE them, so the PRICE is changed!!

Next year the Chinese will be offering "Majestics and Emperors" to Woodnwhimsies and the other resellers (MY OPINION) and we will all have the opportunity to buy them for $10.ish.  I, for one, will be ordering!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## wood-of-1kind (Oct 25, 2007)

> _Originally posted by ed4copies_
> I, for one, will be ordering!!!!!!!!!!!!



OK, Ed, I want in your GROUP BUY when you're ready to go.[]

-Peter-[]


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## ed4copies (Oct 25, 2007)

Well, Peter, they will be expensive in Canada, still!![][][][][]


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## jcollazo (Oct 25, 2007)

Ed, you are somewhat correct about the profit margin. Lately I've sourcing products from China and Taiwan for my little web store to sell. Almost every time I've inquired about prices the first thing I'm asked is "How much do you want to pay?" Quality control is directly tied to the price of the product. The more I (the importer) am willing to pay, the better the quality. Top dollar goes to the company that exclusively  manufactures for a specific seller. 

I found this out this week when one of our high end vendors contacted me after I contacted a company in Taiwan. The message was clearly "they make kits on for us!". This vendor has spent major money for a quality product and expects a return. That's fine with me. It's when vendors (me included) sets a price, as you said, 500% because they feel that's what the market (us) will pay. Also, that markup includes 500% on their import costs per item. 

I hope when the Majestics and Emperors sell for $10ish that I'll be one of the vendors selling them.


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## gerryr (Oct 25, 2007)

One thing you need to remember is that the people here represent probably a minority stake in overall pen kit sales.  I know quite a few "real" woodturners locally who, although they look down their nose at me because I only turn pens, will turn 20-30 pens a year for gifts and there's even one guy who sets up shop in his church near Christmas and sells his junk, and I do mean junk.  These people all buy their kits from PSI, cheapest they can get, because "it's just a pen."  There are also countless schools around the country that offer woodturning courses and the students make a pen or two, also cheap slimline kits from PSI.

I'm not sure I understand what difference it makes if companies sell these cheap kits or not.  If you don't like them, you don't have to buy them.


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## splinter99 (Oct 25, 2007)

I recently purchased some fancy chrome slimlines from a well known supplier (I wont mention who) at $2.00 each only to find they now make the nibs out of plastic..


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## arioux (Oct 25, 2007)

Hi,

Interesting point Ed and you have a lot more experience than me in retail and selling and mabe i'm way out in the right field. So the $1.59 rhodium would be really rhodium with the same quality plating as the higher end kits. That means we could get chrome for $0.75 or even less.  Where is it?

And the $1.65 PSI funline gold plating  is the same pen as their $2.75 golf plating one but they just lower their profit margin on it to get the market and make us beleive that there is two type of plating? Could be but I doubt it. 

Altough you make some very interesting observation concerning the higher end (and i agree somehow with you, except that when you mass produce an item, it usually cost less thus price reduction on a new product that was a hit ), i still think that the market have been flooded with really low end cheap plating kit, but only time will prove me wrong (wich i honestly and sincerly hope so)because i have some of those pen in the field.  

Alfred


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## redfishsc (Oct 27, 2007)

> _Originally posted by GBusardo_
> <br />As far as platings, I have some real questions. What really concerns me is that since the advent of the cheaper plated pens, whose to say that the cheapy pen kits have not infiltrated  the more expensive the bins of sellers. The sellers may not even be aware of what they are selling.
> Am I nuts?  Am I the only one who has started to notice a quality difference in the platings of kits?



You are spot-on. I have had a ton of trouble (meaning 10 pens or so) with Rhodium and Ti gold from CSA, it gets little pits in it. I am using an Imperial that is pitted insanely, but only on the nib end. The clip and end finials look superb.


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## redfishsc (Oct 27, 2007)

> _Originally posted by gerryr_
> <br />and there's even one guy who sets up shop in his church near Christmas and sells his junk, and I do mean junk.  These people all buy their kits from PSI, cheapest they can get, because "it's just a pen."  There are also countless schools around the country that offer woodturning courses and the students make a pen or two, also cheap slimline kits from PSI.
> 
> I'm not sure I understand what difference it makes if companies sell these cheap kits or not.  If you don't like them, you don't have to buy them.




Guys like this, selling things in the church, are the kind that Jesus had a big problem with extorting people at the Temple in Jerusalem. The vendors (selling doves/pigeons and similar "sacrificial" animals) were swindling people big time. Jesus came along with a whip he hand-made[] and cleared house. 


As far as why cheapo kits bother me, I'd rather cheap kits become much, much harder to get so that jokers like the one above selling things in a church will quit selling lousy grade work with cruddy platings and giving you and me a bad name.


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## workinforwood (Oct 27, 2007)

I guess I have to disagree.  I buy and sell the cheap kits and have a need for them.  I mostly make bigger better pens, but I have customers that want cheap $10 pens.  I toss on a small chunk of wood and spin it out for them and I make them aware it's a cheapo pen that wears off, but they don't care because they just want an el-cheapo pen that they can use and not be afraid of losing it.  This is not the majority of my customers, but it is enough of them that I have to carry some.  It's not giving me a bad name when I am making sure the customer understand they are buying crap.

And then, there is the starter people, like at the woodshow in town every year where they get to spin their own pen for $10.  It's an el-cheapo and they do tell you that, but it's not about the quality of the pen, it's about finding out if your interested in pen turning.  You can argue both sides of the fence, I'm just saying there's a place for everything.  I think the real issue isn't the cheapo kit but the dis-honest pen maker.


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## redfishsc (Oct 27, 2007)

> _Originally posted by workinforwood_
> <br />I guess I have to disagree.  I buy and sell the cheap kits and have a need for them.  I mostly make bigger better pens, but I have customers that want cheap $10 pens.  I toss on a small chunk of wood and spin it out for them and I make them aware it's a cheapo pen that wears off, but they don't care because they just want an el-cheapo pen that they can use and not be afraid of losing it.  This is not the majority of my customers, but it is enough of them that I have to carry some.  It's not giving me a bad name when I am making sure the customer understand they are buying crap.
> 
> And then, there is the starter people, like at the woodshow in town every year where they get to spin their own pen for $10.  It's an el-cheapo and they do tell you that, but it's not about the quality of the pen, it's about finding out if your interested in pen turning.  You can argue both sides of the fence, I'm just saying there's a place for everything.  I think the real issue isn't the cheapo kit but the dis-honest pen maker.



Your last statement hit the nail on the head, and there are seemingly more dishonest ones out there considering the number of cheap grade kits I see sold at prices that are inflated. I honestly don't think I have even seen ONE pen for sale in my area (a fairly large city by Southern standards) that was anything other than cheap 24K, and they were the same price I sell my ti-golds and such for. (I know they are the 24K by subtle clues, such as pens that are sold that ONLY come in 24K, and the pens I've seen that were bought and used looked like they had road rash when they ought not have). 

As far as selling 24K pens, I personally don't bother b/c of my own personal philosophy. I do not in the least believe in making a product I know is inferior even if "the price is right" for me and the customer. Now, I'm also not making pens to make a huge cash flow. I'd personally rather sell one $80 Ti-gold fountain pen than 15 24K slimlines for $15 each. I'd just rather not make something that comes with a disclaimer that essentially says "this pen will self destruct in 30 days". To me it's just an issue of integrity, though I am not trying to downplay yours-- you are honest and upfront with them about the durability. While you say it doesn't hurt your image, and perhaps it truly doesn't, I'd personally prefer not to spend time making a $10 pen (I would go broke making $10 pens in a hurry). I want every pen that comes from my lathe to be durable, dependable, and elegant. A 24K pen can, at best, score only 1 of those 3. 

The one big exception is Chrome. It's nice and tough (though I do NOT trust "funline" chromes simply b/c their own manufacturer does not trust them). Though I charge about $20-ish for them, especially if they are wood (time spent on finishing). I also don't sell a lot of slimmies, which is fine b/c I don't like making them. I would rather make and sell the Streamlines, especially the flat-top (Berea) and they come in all sorts of nice platings. Excellent pens.


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## bitshird (Oct 28, 2007)

I understand your comitm3ent to not using a cheap plating, and I understand that except for the Titanium gold, all gold plating will wear faster than either Platinum, Rhodium, Chrome and about the only thing that will wear as fast or faster than Gold would be Sterling Silver or Copper plating
What about the 18 Kt Swiss plating or the so-called upgrade Gold plating, these only seem top be offered by one supplier.
 I just started turning pens, and have been using mostly Rhodium, Satin pearl, which I suspect to be nickel or a brushed chrome, and a so-called Titanium, which actually is pretty durable, I tried buffing the plating off a pen nib that I had ruined.
 I have some buffing compounds that are more aggressive than white diamond that are used on Stainless and Chrome, the Chinese titanium held up pretty well, I wish I hadnâ€™t bought any Gold plated kits, and probably wonâ€™t buy any more, Iâ€™m not sure the market around me will stand the extra cost of Ti Gold .
 Other than a set  I did on an order Iâ€™ve only been asking 20.00 for slim lines in wood and 30.00 in antler and 25.00 for euros and cigars, so I really donâ€™t think Iâ€™ve been cheating any customers, Iâ€™ve only sold 4 pens other than an order for a set of Olivewood. 
Is the â€œUpgrade Goldâ€ worth the extra money?  
Ken Ferrell


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## Texatdurango (Oct 28, 2007)

I keep seeing the term "<b>higher quality kits</b>" mentioned in reference to the "<b>cheaper kits</b>".  Personally I think a whole lot of us are being duped into believing that the "higher quality" kits are actually better quality platings rather than just being "higher priced"!

I had my fill with the $12 - $15 Sierras with their "upgraded" titanium platings, showing wear spots within a few months.  Who is to say the $4 kits aren't just as durable and we're just paying triple for the kits because of a few fancy terms!

Sure would be sad for some of you folks that are looking down your nose at those using "cheap kits" to find out that your kits are just as cheap... but you're just paying more! [:0]


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## Geo in Winnipeg (Oct 28, 2007)

Ken, If you're talking about "18 Kt Swiss Rose Gold" plating - be aware that it tarnishes faster than you can imagine. It will look like crap very quickly and I don't think there is anything you can do to prevent it. When it's new and shiny it looks beautiful but that only lasts a week or so (even if you don't touch it). I tried waxes and TSW. That's been my experience with it.[V]


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## bitshird (Oct 28, 2007)

George,
That's kind of what I was thinking, with the description of binding copper, which is a rapid oxidizing metal with gold, I've had to polish a lot of "Rose Gold" and â€œHamilton Goldâ€ both of which are alloyed with a higher copper content same with purple gold which is alloyed with iron, which also oxidizes quickly, Iâ€™m really getting about ready to CNC some wax patterns and cast some sterling parts for kits like the Euro/Mont Blanc, and Cigar.
There are two new sterling alloys that are pretty tarnish resistant, trying to figure the clip though, there isnâ€™t any way to sufficiently harden sterling to stand the stress, I guess just order the kits in Chrome, and use that clip. Figuring out the rate of shrinkage is the main thing holding me up.
Still using the PVD Gold Titanium seems like the best solution on orders that want gold, 
Ken Ferrell


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## wood-of-1kind (Oct 28, 2007)

> _Originally posted by ed4copies_
> <br />Well, Peter, they will be expensive in Canada, still!![][][][][]



No problem Ed. The way our dollar is escalating against the greenback, I like my chances.

-Peter-[]


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## wolftat (Oct 28, 2007)

I have seen a lot of expensive pens at shows that are garbage just because the maker turns out 50 a day or 10 an hour (actual brags)and the fit and finish are garbage. I take pride in what I do and don't buy junk , but I do test out as many pens from as many suppliers as I can. I decide what is junk by my own testing, not by price. Open your minds and don't think a pen is any better because it cost more, otherwise someone will become a real scumbag and just make a killing on junk kits. Or has it already happened?


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## bitshird (Oct 29, 2007)

OK so what is the verdict on the kits that have upgrade gold?? Not the mechanical parts, just the plating!
Ken Ferrrell


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## wood-of-1kind (Oct 29, 2007)

> _Originally posted by wolftat_
> <br /> Open your minds and don't think a pen is any better because it cost more, otherwise someone will become a real scumbag and just make a killing on junk kits. Or has it already happened?



My belief only and reflects a personal opinion. There is somewhat a false sense of relief that because one uses a 'certain' plating that the lifespan of the pen will be greatly extended or that it can be subjected to 'rougher' treatment than say 10K gold plating. I do not question that Ti is much more durable than regular gold plating. But based on some personal observations I maintain that the so called "superior" and hence higher priced kits may be somewhat based more on perception rather than reality. The price variance between kits with different platings is more of a marketing ploy rather than a true reflection of actual wear and tear.JMO
-Peter-[]


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## gerryr (Oct 29, 2007)

> _Originally posted by bitshird_
> <br />OK so what is the verdict on the kits that have upgrade gold?? Not the mechanical parts, just the plating!
> Ken Ferrrell



If you want a gold color that will last, you MUST use gold titanium.


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## JWW (Oct 29, 2007)

> My belief only and reflects a personal opinion. There is somewhat a false sense of relief that because one uses a 'certain' plating that the lifespan of the pen will be greatly extended or that it can be subjected to 'rougher' treatment than say 10K gold plating. I do not question that Ti is much more durable than regular gold plating. But based on some personal observations I maintain that the so called "superior" and hence higher priced kits may be somewhat based more on perception rather than reality. The price variance between kits with different platings is more of a marketing ploy rather than a true reflection of actual wear and tear.JMO



Amen!


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## cdcarter (Oct 30, 2007)

I wasn't even aware of the PSI low-end line, since I rarely look at them. I had seen the Apprentice series and assumed it was crap. 

Sure hurts my profit margins to pay $8 for a Ti Gold cigar kit when some guys are knocking out a pen every 10 minutes with a $3 24k euro.

But I notice the TG cigars from Berea have been cut to the $6 range. What's that about?


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## redfishsc (Oct 30, 2007)

I have made more than two dozen of the Ti gold cigar kits from Berea in the past two  months, and so far there seems to be no compromise. They all look great and seem to wear like tigold should. I will say that I intentionally use CSA bushings even on Berea cigars simply b/c they seem to last a bit longer and are more consistent. Just an observation. I make more cigars than anything.


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## Rifleman1776 (Oct 30, 2007)

I don't understand why their offerings should "bother" you, or anyone. If you don't like it, don't buy it and move on. Those of us here represent a very tiny percentage of the pen kit buying market. I would love to see sales figures from these companies. I'm surmising that low-end 24K Slimlines are the major mover. These companies are simply filling a niche in their catalogs to satisfy a market they see out there. And, we ain't it.


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## cdcarter (Oct 30, 2007)

Reasonable point, Rifle. Why should beginners have to ruin a bunch of $8 kits while they're learning?



> _Originally posted by Rifleman1776_
> <br />I don't understand why their offerings should "bother" you, or anyone. If you don't like it, don't buy it and move on. Those of us here represent a very tiny percentage of the pen kit buying market. I would love to see sales figures from these companies. I'm surmising that low-end 24K Slimlines are the major mover. These companies are simply filling a niche in their catalogs to satisfy a market they see out there. And, we ain't it.


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## winpooh498 (Oct 30, 2007)

> I have had a ton of trouble (meaning 10 pens or so) with Rhodium and Ti gold from CSA, it gets little pits in it. I am using an Imperial that is pitted insanely, but only on the nib end. The clip and end finials look superb.



I have been reading this thread for a while and I have a question. There has been a lot of talk about the quality of the finishes we get on the different kits, and every once in a while someone brings up body chemistry. Now it seems to me that body chemistry has a lot to do with the issue. Redfishsc says that the only place that he is having issues is on the nib end, well where does the pen components come in most contact with his skin? What makes me think that body chemistry is most of the issues is because we had to replace Shane's wedding ring, it turned his finger black and the silver stated pitting.[V] I can't ware Sterling Silver I get a nasty rash with in minutes of having it on [xx(], so I know that I would not buy a pen in that finish for my use. I use an "upgrade gold" Sierra daily, it is in my purse, diaper bag and even my 2 yr olds mouth [:0] [B)] at times and the finish show no signs of wear.  Now I know that the finishes on the kits is thin and wear away easy, but I think that body chemistry has a lot to do with how fast the corrosion happens. I agree with the above statement of "If you do like it, don't buy it and move on". And instead of blaming the supplier, the we need to think about the other possibilities. 
We only use a product that we are will to put our names on, if it isn't something we feel comfortable with putting our names on then we don't use it, but we don't bad mouth the product or the seller either. 
 I am not trying to cause a flame up here, but I had to ask. Maybe someone will tell me to "shut the heck up, and go back to my shop".  Ok then, I will. [][]

Have a wonderful day


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## JWW (Oct 30, 2007)

> I don't understand why their offerings should "bother" you, or anyone. If you don't like it, don't buy it and move on. Those of us here represent a very tiny percentage of the pen kit buying market. I would love to see sales figures from these companies. I'm surmising that low-end 24K Slimlines are the major mover. These companies are simply filling a niche in their catalogs to satisfy a market they see out there. And, we ain't it.



AMEN Again!


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## bitshird (Oct 30, 2007)

> I have been reading this thread for a while and I have a question. There has been a lot of talk about the quality of the finishes we get on the different kits, and every once in a while someone brings up body chemistry. Now it seems to me that body chemistry has a lot to do with the issue


 You are absolutely correct, Body chemistry does play a major part of plating durability, I was a jewelry manufacturer for many years, and have come across many instances of metals reacting with people in different ways, The main culprit in allergic reactions to Gold and Silver is not the basic metal it's self, rather the metals it is alloyed with, namely copper! I am now around ground and polished steel in a machine shop, we have several people that can touch a piece of freshly precision ground and lapped tool steel and with in an hour or two there are signs of corrosion where they have touched it.
Some folks just have more acid in their systems than others, in some this is caused by medications they are using, I can handle metal all day and no ill effect on the product, so can most of the others in the shop, Two guys have to wear gloves while they handle it. 
As a Jeweler I have even seen reactions to Surgical Stainless Steel, this is usually impervious to bacteria and acid secretions from our bodies, As it currently stands there are only Two metals that have shown no trace og any one ever displaying any allergic reaction to them and both are extremely resistant to acidic corrosion, these are Titanium either pure or in the T6 4AL alloy (used for jewelry) and Niobium also used for jewelry.
Even the guys that have to handle the tool steel with gloves canâ€™t mar the surface of the Titanium; we just use the pure alloy in the shop.
Perhaps this is the reason the TI gold holds up so well, not only is it highly resistant to abrasion, cutting, oxidation and heat, it is resistant to acid, Not all acid, but perhaps this is why it has become a significant part of the jewelry trade.
I think a better place to concentrate complaints about low cost kits is addressed in a thread I started this morning about the quality of the refills that are supplied with kits, and my guess is they are all about the same. (Garbage) unless you go for the name brands like the Schmidt roller balls I believe is what they are called, other than that I too think it a matter of perceived value and not a true standard, surly one or more of the manufacturers and or resellers/marketers have read this thread, yet none have jumped to the defense of their product, I wonder why???
Ken Ferrell


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## redfishsc (Oct 30, 2007)

> _Originally posted by bitshird_
> <br />
> 
> 
> ...




Bitshird, 

Great info from someone who should know. I don't tend to have a bad effect on platings-- sterling does not bother me nor corrode more than it would sitting in a box, and I have a gold-plated Citizen watch that I have used for 8 years now, and it shows about the amount of wear you would expect for something worn 100-200 days out of the year (which, btw, is a good bit of wear). 

I had thought about whether my body chemistry is causing the pitting, but I discarded the thought b/c NONE of the platings from Berea do this (and I use several Berea pens as often as the CSA).

I will keep this in mind if I have customers that seem to destroy pens with corrosion issues (aside from the predictable pitting).

Thanks again for the info.


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## redfishsc (Oct 30, 2007)

> _Originally posted by redfishsc_
> <br />
> 
> 
> ...


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## bitshird (Oct 30, 2007)

Redfishsc,
Based on that, my suspicion would be a low standard of cleanliness in the plating plant, 
I think in the old days it was called QUALITY CONTROL, even the mighty have fallen though,  for the first time in many years Toyota has suffered a loss of owner reliability ratings[] lesssee 30,000.00 car 30.00 pen kit, Could there be a conspiracy ?? or just a general attitude of lets see how far we can drop standards and the suckers will still buy the stuff??[}]
I think it all goes back to the thing about a chain is only as strong as it's weakest link[][:0]
Ken Ferrrell


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## redfishsc (Oct 30, 2007)

> _Originally posted by bitshird_
> <br />Redfishsc,
> Based on that, my suspicion would be a low standard of cleanliness in the plating plant,
> I think in the old days it was called QUALITY CONTROL, even the mighty have fallen though,  for the first time in many years Toyota has suffered a loss of owner reliability ratings[] lesssee 30,000.00 car 30.00 pen kit, Could there be a conspiracy ?? or just a general attitude of lets see how far we can drop standards and the suckers will still buy the stuff??[}]
> ...




Ya got that right! Unfortunately for us....[!]


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## carelg (Oct 31, 2007)

i followed this thread with interest as i am a "new kid in the block".  I have turned a few pens using 10K gold kits, but wiyh what i have read and experiance, i will not use it again.  I agree with redfishc that i want my pens to be durrable, dependable and elegant.

What strike me is the difference in price for the same type of kit between the different suppliers. Is this because some suppliers have a bigger profit margin or are the mechanisms of lower standard? (Remeber the plating option should be titanium gold for all kits.)

i can't just get one or two pens from the different suppliers to test the quality as i have to import all my kits.  Shipping cost, duties and taxes add few dollars to the cost of pens.


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## cdcarter (Nov 1, 2007)

Dawn,

I haven't thought of body chemistry re: platings so much as I have regarding finishes. There is no question that the area around the nib receives the most wear, and this is where the finish will go bad if it isn't compatible. For example, my daughter has sweaty hands, and she can't use a pen with friction polish -- goes dull after two days. On the other hand,I can use one for months, especially if it's Mylands with sanding sealer beneath it. Go figure. I'm sure her finishes are more likely to go bad as well, but haven't examined them.


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## Mikey (Nov 1, 2007)

Just replying to last:

On my first page, someone mentioned that you will pay for the quality you get. In speaking with someone yesterday who works for a company that we all buy from (even other retailers) I was told that these copies and other products coming out now look similar and have the same plating, but that the prep that goes into the product before the plating has a lot to do with how well the plating stands up. Applying a nickel base before the platinum plating yields a longer lasting finish. Maybe some of these companies are skipping a step for cost savings? Maybe they are cleaning parts with different chemicals that don't work as well? Don't know for sure, but it's something to think about.


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## GBusardo (Nov 1, 2007)

I am trying to get a grip on the whole situation in my mind, not an easy thing to do [B)]
A lot of people seem to be having problems with different plating and the cost of the platings, me included. The price of the metal would have to play a very minor roll in the cost. Just as an example, in one  catalog, CS I think, a copper kit is 2 dollars more than a gold kit. Now, Copper sells for about 3.50 a pound and gold sells for 700? dollars an ounce, maybe. Quite a difference!! Also, copper would probably wear about the same as gold, I would think. What it comes down to is that we need more education from the ALL the suppliers on why the cost differential. It maybe to the advantage of the people who sell a TN kit for the same price as gold to keep us in the dark on why their kit is so much cheaper. On the other hand, it might be to their advantage to tell us the process of their kit is the same as CS  or PSI's. If we got the education, we could pick which kits suits our needs. I am believing that just because the catalog says its rhodium, gold, or whatever, it is not giving the whole story. 
We need to be educated, will we get it?


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## Daniel (Nov 1, 2007)

Forgive me now for the stir this may cause.
I got offered to go in on a group buy the other day. we can buy slimline kits for .78 ea. and make pens all day long and sell them for $10 bucks ea.
anyone interested? (retorical question)
although there would not be many in this group that would be interested in this. sadly there are plenty of others out there that are. Cheap kits will always be made as long as people will buy them.
I'm not so sure that the plating material has as much to do with the price of a kit as we might think. it is important to us and that may be blinding us a bit to other factors that effect kit cost. demand being one of those. that could explaine the copper versus gold price.


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## bitshird (Nov 1, 2007)

Daniel, 
I agree the cost of the metal used in the plating has little to do with the problems that are being discussed on this thread and several others, the pitting that was shown on one pen is reminiscent of what I would get if the electro-cleaning or ultrasonic bath wasn't done completely, that type of pitting is just from quality control in the plating shop/factory, I know because I'VE HAD THE SAME PROBLEM I used to do a lot of jewelry repair and re-plating. The reason that the cost keeps dropping is competition and in that respect we all loose.
The first time I saw a hand made pen was at a flea market in Canton Texas, The guy was turning right there and had a line waiting to buy, he was using a Sherline lathe and worked from daybreak to sunset and was getting 20.00 a pen, this was about 20 years ago
convert that to todayâ€™s dollar.
So now I made a pretty bad mistake, I'm getting retired the end of march, so I started turning pens, OK I admit I had no Idea what I was buying, but I didn't want to drop a lot of money on the kits to basically practice on, I bought 20 slim lines for about a buck sixty five and went to work, Well my first pen went dry a couple days ago, (let's not rehash that!!!) but I asked in good faith, and really got an earful from the 100.00 fountain pen guys. 
I agree we need to be educated, when ever a car manufacturer comes out with the be all end all revision we get shown it's advantages, same with software of vitamins or Medicines  then brand W says NO that's bad. But at least there is some dialogue so we have some Idea what to look for or what we are up aginst
I think it's wonderful that some of the suppliers will replace the lousy plated parts, but what do our customers think, after all they didn't buy from supplier X they bought from You and Me and the other guy, we are the ones with the egg on our face, but why would any one buy a product that the company doesn't guarantee at all, what does that say about that company, OK some of our stuff is OK but some is Crap. where is this line drawn or is it a partially obscured line, like "well some of the parts are OK but some ain't." I don't think I'll do business with them at all. JMHO
Ken Ferrell

PS. For gods sake donâ€™t say any thing about the refills[}][}][:0]


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## cdcarter (Nov 2, 2007)

Problem, as I see it, is that you can't tell what a kit is by looking at it. Only way I can tell is by reading the label the baggie. How do I know it's correct? I make a pen, I sell it. If it's a $3 kit (that I paid $6 for), the pen is probably long since out of my sight before it goes south. Most are given as gifts. The recipient isn't going to complain to the giver, so it'll never come back to me. 

So I think the cause of our discomfort is the knowledge that there's no real control on the cheap stuff. I pay for TG, and trust that I'm getting it. I can tell customers the difference, but they glaze over, because they aren't comparison shopping anyway. 

So why pay the premium? I think it comes down to self respect. I do it because I want to give people a quality pen. What others do is none of my business. The money is nice, but it's mad money. I can live without it. I do pens because I enjoy doing them. Making junk takes the joy out of it, so why bother?


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## GBusardo (Nov 2, 2007)

> _Originally posted by cdcarter_
> 
> So why pay the premium? I think it comes down to self respect. I do it because I want to give people a quality pen. What others do is none of my business. The money is nice, but it's mad money. I can live without it. I do pens because I enjoy doing them. Making junk takes the joy out of it, so why bother?



The problem for me is that how do you know you are making junk? A supplier sells a Rhodium Cigar for 3.50 and another sells one for 6.50, is there a difference?


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## ed4copies (Nov 2, 2007)

yep, Three bucks, your cost!

That's the extent of what you KNOW, you can speculate about anything else.


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## wolftat (Nov 4, 2007)

I can buy gold or chrome cigars for $1.85 each retail($.85 wholesale if I order 2000) if I wanted to. I think I will stick with Arizona.At least when I call I can understand him and get reliable information. You have to decide for yourselves who you can trust or you will get 50 different opinions from 50 different people.


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## airrat (Nov 5, 2007)

I use a 24k gold cigar for my daily use.  Actually a couple of different ones.   They are both almost a year old and still look great for the finish.  Dropping them on their nibs is a different story.  I don't sell that many of them with the 24k plating but I do some for people that want to use them at work (in a harsh environment).   I talk to these guys daily and none of the plating on those has wore off either.   

On the other had I made myself a couple slimlines and they wore off in a week.   Those ended up in a drawer and now I just use the cigars.

Not sure why the difference in the 2 kits .


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## gwilki (Nov 5, 2007)

This is a very interesting thread. I have a question for the jewellers and ex-jewellers who have already provided a lot of good information. I am wondering if the finishes that we are using can have a prolonged effect on the plating. For example, is CA off-gassing after we've pressed the pen, and the gas affecting the plating? The same may hold true for lacquer or friction polishes. When we hear that some people have great luck with kits that others refuse to use, I would think that there must be an external problem. It may well be body chemistry. I'm just curious about other possible causes.


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## loglugger (Nov 5, 2007)

24K Slimline pens are all lumped into one, instead of A company slimline, B company and so on. I have used and have people useing PSI 24K slimeline kits for over 3 years and with no wear to speak of. Has anyone else kept track of 24K from the different companys. 
Bob


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## Daniel (Nov 5, 2007)

As for CA off gasing and the effects on the plating. I can tell you for sure do not let uncured CA any where near platinum / Rhodium. it will look like aluminum when it is done. I have adopted the thinking that any CA needs time to gas out before it goes near any plated parts.


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## skiprat (Nov 5, 2007)

We could of course flood the big suppliers with questions or invite them to speak here.[}]

If we just asked the simple question; YOU charge $6 for that kit, THEY charge Â£3, please say why your pen is more expensive. How is your plating better than theirs? Let them fight it out, then vote with your feet.

I think you could get as much knowledge from the replies as you could from the lack of them.

The real issue, I think, is just how much are you (we) prepared to pay for a kit with an everlasting finish. Would you be happy to sell one 'high-end-everlasting-finish' a week for say $300 or 30 cheap slims for $10 each?
If you would rather go the high end route, then buy a decent metal lathe, make your own custom kits and then get them plated yourself.
I will use up all my 'bought' kits soon, thereafter ALL of my pens will be made from A4 grade Stainless Steel. Once I can make a decent clip ( consistantly ) I'm going to start selling. 
If you don't want to compete with the rubbish being sold that has been talked about, then don't. 

If I had half the skills that some of you guys do, with wood and wood finishes, then I know I could make a killing with custom pens.
I'm afraid that the fact that your 'fit and finish' while infinitely better in OUR eyes, than the rubbish being sold, just isn't enough to guarantee that sale anymore.[]


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## CrazyBear (Nov 6, 2007)

I find that you pay more for the 'Name'.

On a slghtly different product.

I once bought two jackets for winter wear. one was a $400 'Berghausse' outer skin and fleece lining. The other was a cheap $60 'Regatta'outer skin and fleece lining. Guess which one lasted the longest by far. It was also the warmest( It wasnt the Berghausse)

So the price of the item doesnt mean to say that it is going to be the best quality. it is simply an indication of how much money that company has spent advertising their product and how much they have 'convinced' you to pay


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## wolftat (Nov 15, 2007)

I have just received an email from the company in china that has the very low priced kits and.........they claim to be the supplier for PSI and Woodturningz. Now lets figure out what is going on with the pricing and quality. This just seems to be a profitable business and someone has to do it. I was quoted a retail price of $1.85 for black titanium (or any other finish) cigar kits. Anyone want to go in on a group buy? We only have to hit a $5000 minimum. I'm going to keep buying from my suppliers in the USA for now.


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## bitshird (Nov 15, 2007)

> _Originally posted by gwilki_
> <br />This is a very interesting thread. I have a question for the jewellers and ex-jewellers who have already provided a lot of good information. I am wondering if the finishes that we are using can have a prolonged effect on the plating. For example, is CA off-gassing after we've pressed the pen, and the gas affecting the plating?


 I would imagine that CA off gassing would have an effect on most precious metal plating, 
 I used to use a technique called 'Cyanide Bombing' when working on gold and silver castings that had areas that were not accessible to polishing brushes , the process dissolved the impurities on the very surface layer of the piece,  modern practice does not advocate this procedure any longer because it was and still is
 [xx(] EXTREEMLY DANGEROUS [xx(]it also involved adding Technical grade Hydrogen Peroxide to the Cyanide egg , but the Hydrogen Peroxide was just as a catalyst.
 Also bear in mind that until about 20 years ago nearly all plating solutions were Cyanide based, so there would also prove a harmful link to CA off gassing and degradation of plated surfaces as the Cyanide was able to keep the dissolved solids of the metal in suspension, []
Ken Ferrell


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## jrc (Nov 16, 2007)

Bad Kits.  I got 100 kits the other day and when ordering I ask where they were from, china he said yes. I ask if he had any others, he said no. So it was to late to shop around so I got them.  The nib where it meets the wood is to large.  Size should be .330 but all of them were .336
I think my days are numbered making slimlines and comfort kits if all you can get is kits like this from china.
I should watch what I saying about china because in twenty years china will be the richest and most powerful country in the world and they might come after me.
If we keep buying these cheapo kits china then the people making the better ones will stop making them and the cheapo kit from chine will get worse and worse.  I do not know about you but I can not feel very good selling pens made from these kits.


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## Stacker (Nov 16, 2007)

> _Originally posted by jrc_
> <br />Bad Kits.  I got 100 kits the other day and when ordering I ask where they were from, china he said yes. I ask if he had any others, he said no. So it was to late to shop around so I got them.  The nib where it meets the wood is to large.  Size should be .330 but all of them were .336
> I think my days are numbered making slimlines and comfort kits if all you can get is kits like this from china.
> I should watch what I saying about china because in twenty years china will be the richest and most powerful country in the world and they might come after me.
> If we keep buying these cheapo kits china then the people making the better ones will stop making them and the cheapo kit from chine will get worse and worse.  I do not know about you but I can not feel very good selling pens made from these kits.



<b></b>
I suppose that there could be some bad kits from China,perhaps due to a bad mould or someone having a bad day. I for one have bought numerous kits,well over 500 from Berea and have found some problems also. For one the nib on the cigar pens,the pen works fine right up until the customer takes delivery then it is sent back to me because the refill will not retract. I replace the nib and everything works fine. Soft metal who knows.
I have on hand about 4750 pen kits from China,soon enough my website will be ready and I will be the next major Canadian supplier. I tried to get my kits from what is listed as G.E. products in Taiwan but was only met with a phone call from some bigwig at Berea(don't remember his name,John perhaps)that told me they didn't need any more dealers. He also told me not to buy kits from China because they are now what Berea was 10 years ago. I told him of my plan to buy from China no matter what he said. That being said, I have yet to see any plating problems with ANY of the kits I have used or sold. 
Note: Don't worry Ed, if I can get majestics and emperors at a reasonable cost I will definitely pass the savings on to you.

FYI,
I have bought kits from PSI,something called a traditional Fountain pen and I have yet to see it in the Chinese manufacturers catalogue. I doubt they make them only special order for PSI,obviously they are not getting them from this manufacturer.

Who knows maybe you work for the other guys.


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## wolftat (Nov 16, 2007)

Stacker, was that remark going my way?


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## MArruda (Nov 16, 2007)

Okay... I'magonna get flamed. 
I suppose I'm what you would all consider a bottom feeder loser. I just started turning pens and want to try to use it to augment my regular woodworking business. As such, I just bought a bunch of funline kits from Augum's Pen Works. I needed to try to ge tin to it with the lowest cash outlay possible, but my plan is to upgrade kits and start selling other pens when business starts going somewhere. I'm currently only doing slimlines, to sell for $25 a piece. I use purpleheart, redheart, zebra, bocote, curly maple, cherry, walnut, poplar and mahogany for now, some ebony and other woods... just depends on what I find or have as off cuts. I use either bare wood with a carnauba wax, renwax, or CA, depending on the wood and how it wants to be finished. We all have to start somewhere.

On a side note, I compared the funline 24k, augum's 24k and a 24k my dad got from rockler. What's kinda funny is that the funline had the best finish of them all. I don't know if the plating is a few microns thinner, but it was buffed out better nad had a much better sheen and feel than the other two. 

-Michael


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## wudnhed (Nov 16, 2007)

I don't see any reason you would get flamed and I sure don't consider someone a bottom feeder because they're using an inexpensive kit.  People have different taste and people have different ideas on how to do things.  Like you said, "we all have to start somewhere."


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## wolftat (Nov 16, 2007)

I have also bought slimlines from Woodturningz and have had good luck with them. I just want to know who in America actually makes pen kits and not just rebagging foreign stuff. I'm not trying to knock anyones stuff, but I am a Marine and I want to support my country in more ways than by going back to Iraq again and sweating my *** off. I think I need to just retire and relax, someone tell congress to chill out and stop picking fights so I can get some rest already.


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## DCBluesman (Nov 17, 2007)

Currently there are no U.S. manufacturers of pen kits.


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## Stacker (Nov 17, 2007)

> _Originally posted by wolftat_
> <br />Stacker, was that remark going my way?


No,no offence intended. I apologize if I did. Just wanted to get my 2 cents in.


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## wolftat (Nov 17, 2007)

Stacker, 
 No problem, I am just a little sensitive due to my job and the up coming trip.
  I think this is just getting us all a little too worked up. We all need to realize that the problem is basically the same as the fuel problems. Maybe we need to accept the fact that if we had thought of buying direct and reselling for a nice profit ,we would. It is the American way after all, free enterprise. I am going to keep buying from Arizona, Woodturningz, and Woodnwhimsie. These are the folks that have been taking care of ME and keeping my customers happy, after all, isn't that what it is all about anyways. I started turning pens for fun and relaxation and I am still doing it for fun and relaxation, and I will continue to do it for those reasons. Cheap kits or expensive kits are all trash when you run them over with a truck anyways.[]


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## goodwood (Nov 17, 2007)

Boy you folks surely use some descriptions of different companies and their products with abandon.  PSI taught me how to make a pen with a personal free class in Phila and I have been loyal to them since.  I really was tempted by the above posts and bought some 10's  from another top grade company.  They came their nice they also are not as bright as PSI and since they are of lower luster to begin with the wear problem is negligible.  I've never seen one of PSI's that lost it's plating
including mine and the family. If their appearance at manufacture is not of equal luster why such bad mouthing. Harry


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## its_virgil (Nov 17, 2007)

Which kits are cheaper looking; which platings are better looking; which mechanisms are better; which kits I like and which kits someone else likes; which platings are shinner than others. We all have our personal preferences and opinions. What one person really likes others think is the worst of all. In the end we all make what we like or what sells for us....I've never stopped making a particular kit nor started making some other kit or stopped buying from one company and started buying from another because of others opinions. I try most kits and purchase from all of the pen suppliers and make my own decisions. Life is too short to let the choice of pen kits upset me. Oh well, I'll shut up now. Your're welcome.
Do a good turn daily!
Don


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