# Floor wax?



## mbellek (Jul 23, 2007)

I was talking to a co-worker who does craft fairs and stuff (but he is more into stained-glass and toll (sp?) painting) about different finishes... He has done some turning in the past, so he is not totally ignorant, but his answer I found strange. 

"Go to Home Depot or Lowe's and get some hardwood floor wax. It's the cheapest, easiest to find and work with"

Really? 

BTW when he told me this I was trying to find a recommendation for a good CLEAR and waterproof finish. I do mostly hair sticks (see my photobucket page in my sig if you don't know what I mean by that) and with long hair that takes a long time to dry, waterproof is important. I want to start using some dymondwood, so I would think staying clear is important too.

Thanks!


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## wdcav1952 (Jul 23, 2007)

Melanie,

I question whether floor wax would last on your hair sticks.  Seems to me that it would wear off, but I guess you would have to try to see.  Consider Enduro, it is used for bar tops.


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## Gary Max (Jul 23, 2007)

Heck just use Johnson's Paste Wax-----if you apply this with your product on the lathe----it will never come off. 
The down side to using wax----it will never come off--- which means you can not apply anything over it.
It is made for floors ---what could be tougher???
I use it for many MANY things in my shop. Not everything needs to have a million dollar shine.
I also buff it out---you can get a nice shine with just a little work.
Plus you want to talk about a can lasting forever---this may be it----[]


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## Rifleman1776 (Jul 23, 2007)

He was probably referring to acrylic floor finishes. Very tough. Get it on right or you will have to skew to get off. If it shines enough for small projects, it might be good for your uses. OTOH, if it were the perfect finish, I have to wonder why penturners haven't taken to it's use.


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## babyblues (Jul 23, 2007)

> _Originally posted by Rifleman1776_
> <br />He was probably referring to acrylic floor finishes. Very tough. Get it on right or you will have to skew to get off. If it shines enough for small projects, it might be good for your uses. OTOH, if it were the perfect finish, I have to wonder why penturners haven't taken to it's use.


Because of the curing time.  We're an impatient bunch.  []

I've actually wondered about floor finishes.  But I can only find the stuff by the gallon.


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## gerryr (Jul 23, 2007)

4 coats of thin CA ought to more than do the job.


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## mbellek (Jul 23, 2007)

So what IS the perfect finish?

My father-in-law, who is the one who taught me how to turn (he has a lathe that he used for a while at first, and then abandoned), gave me some "gun-stock finish" called "Tru-Oil" but I am not wild about it. It doesn't give the glassy, shiny finish that I want and it adds a yellow tint to the wood. (It's an okay look in and of itself, but I want something different)

Suggestions?


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## wdcav1952 (Jul 23, 2007)

Malanie,

I reiterate that Enduro would be a good choice.  It does not, in my opinion, change the color of the wood and is a hard and durable finish.  It polishes very nicely.

Check the photo album of member wayneis.  Wayne is the resident Enduro guru.


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## gerryr (Jul 23, 2007)

There is no such thing as the "perfect" finish.  At various times, I use CA, lacquer and also Tru Oil.  I can get a very shiny finish with Tru Oil, but it does require power buffing to get it and it takes a few days.  I only use it on Bethlehem Olivewood.  CA doesn't work well on some woods, usually ones with high oil content.  I actually prefer lacquer, but it takes much longer than CA.

I would add, not to dispute Mr. Cavanaugh whom I hold in the highest ill repute[}][], but for what you are doing I think CA is probably the best finish to use.  It dries very quickly, is absolutely waterproof, produces a glass-like finish and takes a LOT less time than Enduro.


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## Gary Max (Jul 23, 2007)

And some days of the week ain't none of them going to work right.[]


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## JimGo (Jul 23, 2007)

Have you cosidered using polyester resin?  Both as a finish and as the body of the pin.


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## wdcav1952 (Jul 23, 2007)

> _Originally posted by gerryr_
> <br />There is no such thing as the "perfect" finish.  At various times, I use CA, lacquer and also Tru Oil.  I can get a very shiny finish with Tru Oil, but it does require power buffing to get it and it takes a few days.  I only use it on Bethlehem Olivewood.  CA doesn't work well on some woods, usually ones with high oil content.  I actually prefer lacquer, but it takes much longer than CA.
> 
> I would add, not to dispute Mr. Cavanaugh whom I hold in the highest ill repute[}][], but for what you are doing I think CA is probably the best finish to use.  It dries very quickly, is absolutely waterproof, produces a glass-like finish and takes a LOT less time than Enduro.



Don't blame me when your hair stick is glued to your hair!  Just remember the words of Gerry!!! [}][]


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## RussFairfield (Jul 23, 2007)

Waxes are not a finish. They are a sacrificial protective coating that is put on top of the finish, or on top of the bare wood to ofer some protection from the elements, water, wear, and exposure to sunlight. As such, they are the softest, least durable, and least wear resistant of anything you can put on a piece of wood. 

There is no way to answer the question about using floor waxes without having a specific brand name. "Floor wax" is a broad subject that covers man different waxes and products.

Johnson's and Trewax are a Carnauba based paste product with softer waxes and solvents added to make them easy to apply.  The other pastes and all of the liquid waxes have silicones and plastic resins added to make them shinier and slicker, and give the manufacturer an advertising hook.

If you want to finish with wax, you should be using the HUT wax sticks, or the pure Carnauba applied with a buffing wheel. The HUT sticks are a higher Carnauba content than any floor wax, and will last longer. In other words, if you don't think that HUT wax is a good finish, you will think even less of most floor waxes.

Pure Carnauba is among the hardest of waxes and that makes it difficult to apply. About the only way to apply it in a thin coat is with a buffing wheel.


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## gerryr (Jul 23, 2007)

> _Originally posted by wdcav1952_
> <br />
> Don't blame me when your hair stick is glued to your hair!  Just remember the words of Gerry!!! [}][]


ROTFLMAO


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## Rifleman1776 (Jul 23, 2007)

> _Originally posted by mbellek_
> <br />So what IS the perfect finish?
> 
> My father-in-law, who is the one who taught me how to turn (he has a lathe that he used for a while at first, and then abandoned), gave me some "gun-stock finish" called "Tru-Oil" but I am not wild about it. It doesn't give the glassy, shiny finish that I want and it adds a yellow tint to the wood. (It's an okay look in and of itself, but I want something different)
> ...



Birchwood Casey 'Tru-Oil' is high quality boiled linseed oil (BLO) with additives. It is very popular with gun builders. It isn't intended to give a glassy/shiny finish. Quite the opposite, it is intended to give a low to no gloss warm, natural finish and feel to the wood. It is usually applied with bare hands. The warmth of the hand causing the oil to penetrate the wood. If, after curing, the finish is shinier than desired, a gently rubbing with four ought (0000) steel wood will de-gloss it. For pens, I have read here and other pen forums, that some have had success with it. Matter of taste.


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## mbellek (Jul 23, 2007)

Well, quick is good. Now, all joking aside, will CA glue really turn back into glue?


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## wdcav1952 (Jul 23, 2007)

> _Originally posted by mbellek_
> <br />Well, quick is good. Now, all joking aside, will CA glue really turn back into glue?



Melanie, 

No, CA is a great finish, I just prefer other finishes as the CA gods often do not smile on me.


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## loglugger (Jul 23, 2007)

Does anyone know if hair spray will soften the ca?
Bob


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## DaveM (Jul 24, 2007)

Probably the only way to determine that would be to finish a piece, and let the finish fully cure.  Then expose it to hairspray over and over again.  I would guess that the length of cure would have an effect on the resistance of the finish.  Years ago, when I flew model airplanes, we rushed to fly them too soon, and melted the paint off with our nitro fuel and engine cleaners.  I remember one year, all of the parts I had painted last fall were fine, but the ones I had just painted in the spring were ruined.  Same finsh, just the difference between curing for a few days, and a few months.

I have also used tru oil.  It is a neat finish for calls and the like.  I might use it on a pen, but it would probably not be a maintainence free finish.  I would have to redo it once in a while.

Good luck,
Dave


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## mbellek (Jul 24, 2007)

I bought Minwax fast-drying Polyurethane clear gloss and also Minwax polycrylic clear gloss. 

I like the polyurethane better already. I decided to get the polycrylic because the can said that regular polyurethane will "amber" the wood and that if you want to preserve the color of a lighter wood (which I do) to use polycrylic. 

The polycrylic appears to have just seeped into the wood though. It now looks like I never sanded it after I finished turning it... Is that normal? Is that why you need to sand in between coats?

I'm sorry if these are dumb questions... Its just that I am THAT much of a noob at this!!


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## Firefyter-emt (Jul 25, 2007)

Mel, nice shape on the sticks. I made a bunch of those last year mostly for my wife and even sold a couple. My problem was that for the work that went into them, and the cost of the oversized wood (non-pen blank) I could not even break even.

I had done most of mine with a CA/BLO finish, but it's trickey with lots of coves like you have. I would think the pure Carnuba or HUT wax sysstem would work the best. You don't really want them slippery and gloss is not a reall issue. In fact, I think they look better in the hair without the gloss, but the warmth of the wood.

Your's put mine to shame here..






By the way, you may want to think about a small ball bearing style steady rest. It will keep your hand free and stop some of the flex. I made one for my lathe a while back (I have to redo it to fit the lathe now that I lifted it) The cool part is that the rest will self adjust as your turn. I have the plan as a PDF if you would like a copy.

Here is the one I am talking of:
www.yankeetoys.org/lee/steadyrest-1.jpg


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## mbellek (Jul 27, 2007)

Firefyter... I have played with HUT wax before, but it seemed I needed to put so much pressure on the piece, I'd snap it!!

I also just picked up a live center today, so I'm hoping that might help me with snappage. 

Say, how does that steady-rest work? Is it basically just like having a 3rd hand (who couldn't use one of those?) pushing back on the wood?


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## Fred (Jul 27, 2007)

Tru-Oil is a shellac based finish and should do just fine. I have used it on several larger bowls with no problem and a couple of darker woods and a few walnut pens I have turned.

Try a clear acrylic based floor finish. I use a product I get from WalMart ($5.00) and so far the finish is very acceptable. I will have to get out to the shop for the product name and re-post it in a bit since I absolutely cannot remember the name of it right now. [:0]


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## Rifleman1776 (Jul 28, 2007)

> _Originally posted by Fred_erick_
> <br />Tru-Oil is a shellac based finish and should do just fine. I have used it on several larger bowls with no problem and a couple of darker woods and a few walnut pens I have turned.
> 
> Try a clear acrylic based floor finish. I use a product I get from WalMart ($5.00) and so far the finish is very acceptable. I will have to get out to the shop for the product name and re-post it in a bit since I absolutely cannot remember the name of it right now. [:0]



Fred, Birchwood Casey Tru-Oil is a high quality linseed oil very popular with gun builders. It is best applied with the bare hands, allowing the warmth of the hand to help the oil penetrate the wood. As you have found, it does work very well on walnut and gives a pleasing no, to low-gloss surface finish.


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## mbellek (Aug 1, 2007)

I have found that HUT wax is a THOUSAND times easier to apply with a LIVE center. I have no idea why dead centers even exist....

I was thinking of pure carnauba... but I've read it is very difficult to apply. I read an article on woodcraft.com that involved boiling, turpentine, and beeswax... 

So could I simply use a bar of pure carnauba with a buffing wheel? (Probably much in the same way I do my ends on my hair sticks: what I can't taper down on the lathe, I cut off and then sand down to a fine point. Then I take a buffing wheel attachment for my dremel, pick up some wax with it, apply and use a 2nd buffing wheel to heat and remove excess) -- Would that be about the right procedure for applying pure carnauba wax with a buffing wheel?

A fellow hair-stick-turner recommended to me "Renaissance" wax? He said it was more enduring than HUT.

I can't find Enduro anywhere and I just made a really (really) big mess when I tried a CA finish. Let's just say my fingers were glued and it was just, oh it was bad.


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## Fred (Aug 2, 2007)

Back on July 27 I said something about an acrylic floor finish available from Wal-Mart.

The product is FUTURE PREMIUM FLOOR FINISH. It states it is a "Long lasting shine tough acrylic protection." It is in a 27 fl oz bottle and I believe it costs around $5.00 or so a bottle.

I turn mt blanks to finished size, sand with MM all the way from the first grit to the 12000. I then soak the blanks in the FUTURE finish for about two hours without a vacuum or about 30 minutes if I use the vacuum. I then remove the blanks, wipe off any 'extra' and stand them on end and allow them to dry. I re-mount the blanks on the mandrel and buff using the Beall three wheel system. 

Then I assemble the pen and carefully and very lightly re-buff with the carnauba wax wheel if necessary, being very careful not to remove any finish from the metal parts which can be easy to do if you are heavy handed. 

(Recommended if you are unsure of the metal finish) Sometimes I just use a soft cloth and briskly rub the pen to bring up and shine that may have been finger printed while assembling. Then set the pen aside and allow the waxes to harden, usually overnight. So far I like the results. 

I would post pictures, but my camera is suffering a melt-down these days and doesn't want to cooperate with anything I try to do with it. []


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## low_48 (Aug 6, 2007)

I don't like to put wax on any of these daily hand use items. Some of my first pens came back with a black sticky surface. I think that constant hand use transfers the body oils to the wax and softens it. Then you combine in any dirt from the hands and you have a mess! It's the same syndrome that is seen on the back of antique chairs. I use a plastic polish to put the high gloss sheen on the CA.


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## jking (Aug 11, 2007)

> _Originally posted by mbellek_
> <br />
> 
> The polycrylic appears to have just seeped into the wood though. It now looks like I never sanded it after I finished turning it... Is that normal? Is that why you need to sand in between coats?



Polycrylic is a water-based finish.  Water-based finishes will tend to raise the grain when they are applied.  The effect will be more noticeable with some woods than others, but, you will probably need to sand in between coats.  Sanding sealer applied before the finish should help some, but, the best thing to do would be sanding to high grit (&gt;600) before finishing.

I would sure recommend you keep trying the CA finish.  Polycrylic & polyurethane (even the fast-drying) will still take quite a while to completely cure.  I've had the best luck with CA when I make sure to put on thin coats.  For pens, I'll do a couple of coats with thing CA as a sealer coat & then a few coats of medium.  I'm still working on getting a smooth layer to minimize the sanding.  Someone mentioned trying several coats of thin CA; I think this would work fine.  You probably would have very minimal sanding required afterwards.


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## mbellek (Aug 12, 2007)

But what do you do about the glue flicking everywhere? Is that normal?


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## hrigg (Aug 12, 2007)

Glue flicking every where usually means your lathe speed is too fast, or you're trying to put on too much at one time, or both.  That's been my (limited) experience, anyway.


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## Fred (Aug 13, 2007)

Melanie, You MUST slow the lathe down to the point where the CA does not 'fly' off and get all over every thing. Then nwhen it has cured pseed the lather back up to your desired speed. []


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## mbellek (Aug 13, 2007)

Ohhhh so I don't want it on the same speed I use for sanding? [:0]


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## Fred (Aug 13, 2007)

Well, that depends on how you sand. I learned a long time ago that slower speeds when sanding are often better that faster speeds. The heat build-up caused by friction is far worse when using a high speed and that can be a disaster in the making. Many woods 'crack' when they are subjected to heat and that in turn leads to a destroyed project. You turn thin stock in the form of hair sticks. How many - if any - have cracked when sanding at high speeds? It does not happen all the time so you may not have experienced it - yet. Pen blanks are far thinner on the tubes and therefore often are subject to cracking easily.

Friction is OK when under control. I was "taught" that if it burns the fingers or hand when sanding, then the wood can suffer and crack or discolor." With that in mind, I always slow down the lathe when sanding and speed it back up when finishing being careful of the heat build-up. If I am pressed for time, then I will use my Festool sander to do the initial sanding, then switch to MM or steel wool. I use the tool while the lathe is spinning about 600-800 RPM.

CA does not need the heat to cure so slow down when applying it to your project. It is far, far easier to go slow than to spend a lot of extra time cleaning the lathe, not to mention the cleaning of one's hands and body of the spray from the CA. Just imagine how much time you would lose if you got that stuff in your eyes!!! []


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## bob393 (Aug 13, 2007)

Melanie; 
No once CA is cured it's about as hard and impervious as anything you can get your hands on.
And except for the smell it's really quite ease to apply.


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## wdcav1952 (Aug 13, 2007)

Melanie,

From the library, a great place to spend a bit of time:

http://content.penturners.org/articles/2006/donwardca.pdf


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