# Will TBC become msinstream?



## Dan Masshardt (Jun 16, 2013)

Turning between centers seems to be popular in this forum.  I use this method 90% of the time myself.  

Why haven't any of the major suppliers caught on?   It would be so convenient to be able to order tbc bushings along with the kits. 

I know someone's going to jump in and say you don't need bushings.  I realize this but I like them and I think most people do.  I also realize that you can use regular  bushings and I do but tbc bushings - steel and delrin) are nice. 

Is it only a matter if time until the suppliers catch on or will it be a fringe niche?


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## turncrazy43 (Jun 16, 2013)

The suppliers can sell a lot more bushings using the old material. Therefore, $$ make the difference.


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## Jim Burr (Jun 16, 2013)

I think overall, BTC is only used by a small amount of turners around the world. Yes...many of us use it on IAP, but when you consider all the pen turners everywhere...I don't think it adds up to a large percentage. I use it on every pen. Having picked up a ton of kits from a guy getting out of the business. First thing I did was call John and get bushings for all the new types I picked up. 
It could be the expense...lots of people on fixed incomes, or maybe just folks that make the random pen here and there. All of this is of course...JMHO.


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## jttheclockman (Jun 16, 2013)

The need or demand is definetly not there and no not as many people use that method than you think. You read about many of the same people preaching the use of tbc. Nothing wrong with turning with a mandrel if done properly and is a whole lot cheaper. With the invention of a Mandrel saver that also has changed the pen turning landscape. So TBC is just another weapon in the arsenal but not the only weapon. There are many ways to turn a pen. Now will any of the big companies start offering the bushings will probably depend on their studies and market research. I know whenever I buy kits I always buy at least 2 sets of bushings so that would not be a savings for me. Just an opinion.


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## skiprat (Jun 16, 2013)

Ssssshhhhhh !!!! Don't tell the suppliers or they will just charge more for them.:biggrin:

Just use your existing bushings and use a centre drill on the outside end. 
Dead centre in the headstock and a live centre in the tailstock and Bob's your uncle!!:wink:


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## Dan Masshardt (Jun 16, 2013)

So far I'm hearing all 'no's to the question of becoming mainstream.  

Interesting.  Thanks for commenting.


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## Charlie_W (Jun 16, 2013)

Lazerlinez is making TBC bushings for their stainless kits as well as for some some other kits. These are also drilled and can be used on a mandrel or between centers.

Marksman also is supplying TBC bushings. I would need to go check downstairs to see if they are for mandrel as well...naa, another day.

I use these 95% of the time. I like my pens to be round. Sometimes, I will use a standard mandrel bushing and then go totally between centers to get the finish size and check with calipers.
I CA between centers only...no bushing what so ever. Then just touch up the ends where the CA has rolled over.


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## GaryT45 (Jun 16, 2013)

Dan Masshardt said:


> Turning between centers seems to be popular in this forum. I use this method 90% of the time myself.
> 
> Why haven't any of the major suppliers caught on? It would be so convenient to be able to order tbc bushings along with the kits.
> 
> ...


 
If everyone started doing TBC, sales of mandrels would dry up.


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## Dan26 (Jun 16, 2013)

I started TBC about two years ago. I don't even use bushings now. I have several kits that I never bought bushings for. If someone were to ask me about pen turning, I'd jump right in to TBC and save them some $$$.


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## Holz Mechaniker (Jun 16, 2013)

I find for issues with bushing than I do the mandrel...  and either mandrel size is a joke..
Thin parting tool for the outside edges of the blank and set of calipers all I use anymore.
Pens are skill builders nothing more than that. that make TBC more inline with Traditional wood turning.


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## low_48 (Jun 16, 2013)

skiprat said:


> Ssssshhhhhh !!!! Don't tell the suppliers or they will just charge more for them.:biggrin:
> 
> Just use your existing bushings and use a centre drill on the outside end.
> Dead centre in the headstock and a live centre in the tailstock and Bob's your uncle!!:wink:



You can do that, if the bushings are worth modifying. Some are poorly machined from the start.


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## LagniappeRob (Jun 16, 2013)

I use the bushings between centers only for getting it close. Just saves me from having to check a lot at the beginning of turning a pen. Can't tell you the last time I used the mandrel to turn something. Too often the bushings left me with a non-concentric turn. Soon as I started pulling the bushings and going straight TBC, my concentricity issues disappeared. Looking at some of the TBC specific bushings, the area that goes inside the tube looks longer. Plus I'm sure they're better made than the mass produced ones. I've gotten noticeably non-concentric bushings - meaning the hole was WAY off of center out of the package.  I've been tempted to buy some of the TBC bushings from our member/vendors just to see if that's the case that they are longer & tighter - but I'm so used to not using them except to get close not sure I'd use them for anything more than getting close anyway.


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## Dale Allen (Jun 16, 2013)

Take a good close look at the pens pictured in the 'well distributed' suppliers catalogs.   Many of them look like the first one I turned.  I don't think that most of the people turning out a lot of pens are that interested in the precision that TBC offers.
And, most(not all) who start this addiction start out with a mandrel. Maybe because it is a place to start before you 'see what you are getting into'! I know I did and never could get a satisfactory pen made with it.  True, I am my own worst critic but it really was a piece of crap, even with the mandrel saver.
Think about the mandrel bushing this way.  Using a mandrel the ID of the bushing is fitted onto a shaft and the OD of the bushing is fitted inside of the tube.  Both need some measure of gap.  With the TBC bushings the only gap is between the bushing OD and the tube.  A well made TBC bushing keeps this to a minimum so there is far less chance of getting an OOC condition.
What we need are brass tubes that are tapered on the ends and bushings that taper there too.  Then all gaps are covered!:biggrin:


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## mikespenturningz (Jun 16, 2013)

I really don't have anything against using a mandrel and have owned several of them. I rarely use them now though. I either get the TBC bushings if they are available of use a centering drill to add the 60 degree angle to a commercial set. I really have fallen in love with turning the 10.5 and 12.5 drill sized hardware sets and only need the one set for right now!


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## edstreet (Jun 16, 2013)

I think if you really looked at 'mainstream' you will find that TBC is probably more common than not.  Many turners dont post and not active.  Also the more advanced, skilled, etc users will more apt to TBC.


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## alphageek (Jun 16, 2013)

edstreet said:


> I think if you really looked at 'mainstream' you will find that TBC is probably more common than not.  Many turners dont post and not active.  Also the more advanced, skilled, etc users will more apt to TBC.



I think you're being self biased here.   I don't think TBC vs mandrel is a proof of skill or advancement.  I think its a preference and I know of some amazing turners on both sides of the fence.

I agree that many turners don't post, aren't active, or don't even know about IAP.   If you truly look at "mainstream", I think you'd find there is a LOT that we know here that the mainstream doesn't.   As big as the IAP is, there is multitudes of turners out side of it.  Given that all of the major suppliers sell bushings (many times in a 'starter kit' with drill bit too) - I believe that TBC is still in the minority compared to mandrel/bushings.


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## edstreet (Jun 16, 2013)

Er ok check this out.

More advanced/silled/etc as in those coming to pen turning from other areas who already have a lathe and doing other turnings, those who have been turning for some time and getting into the more advanced areas i.e. kitless, closed end and the like will mostly be forced into TBC setups and lack of a mandrel.

Also your more experienced turners knows you can do makeshift items to avoid having to shell out $ for specialized equipment.

It, TBC, may indeed be in a minority (less than 50%) but I am saying it is probably more common than we are giving it credit to be.


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## Jim Burr (Jun 17, 2013)

alphageek said:


> edstreet said:
> 
> 
> > I think if you really looked at 'mainstream' you will find that TBC is probably more common than not. Many turners dont post and not active. Also the more advanced, skilled, etc users will more apt to TBC.
> ...


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## Jim Burr (Jun 17, 2013)

edstreet said:


> I think if you really looked at 'mainstream' you will find that TBC is probably more common than not. Many turners dont post and not active. Also the more advanced, skilled, etc users will more apt to TBC.


 
Unfortunately...you're right. Taking quality pic's, putting up with the "better pic!" crap and the "Why Bother" attitude relegate many to not bother posting. After all...it's just another pen :frown:...just an observation and MHO!!!


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## jttheclockman (Jun 17, 2013)

I consider myself an advanced turner. In fact just the other day I made 2 wedding pens Used my mandrel as I always do and to me they came out perfect. So many things go into making a simple pen and just because you are using a so called true set of bushings does not by any means make you have a perfect round blank. So this notion of using those type bushings will solve all OOR problems you are kidding yourself.


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## skiprat (Jun 17, 2013)

There seems to be some confusion every time this subject comes up...

Turning between centres WITH bushings or WITHOUT bushings??. Some answer it differently.

I would never call anyone a liar, but I believe that it is impossible to get a sharp square edge that matches the hardware without bushes of some sort, especially a wood blank with a finish on it.

I also can't see the point of *not* using them. Some say that the bushes from vendors are crap and out of round etc etc. But when a thin tube is placed between two 60deg centres then there is no guarentee that it will sit perfectly central to the centres. 
If the bushes really are crap, then send them back. The quality won't improve if we don't complain. Jeesh, the latest statement to glue in the loose parts of the kit from a vendor here was ludicrous. If the refill spring that was mentioned could actually push the kit apart then it should be sent back. 

Sometimes I really believe that many folks say stuff because they think they should. Maybe they think it's not macho to admit you still use a mandrel and bushes? 
Hey, I'm not too proud to admit that I use bushes. :biggrin: I do make most of my own though and I use them between centres. But I do use them :wink:
I've shown pics of how I mod stock bushes.

Same issue with a skew. Most real turners will tell you that a skew is a FINISHING tool. This is your prized tool and you want to protect the delicate edge. Why would you use it to make a square blank to round and then have to sharpen it a few times before you finish? What's wrong with admitting you use a gouge?

Guys, it's the FINAL product that impresses your peers or makes the sale, not how you got there. :wink:

OK, off my soap box now. :biggrin:


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## mikespenturningz (Jun 17, 2013)

I always use bushings between centers. I really don't care how anyone else does it. There is no wrong way among the ways that have been presented here. We are all pen turners not almost pen turners because we choose to do it one way or another. The way I do something is just the way I do it and that is OK.


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## jyreene (Jun 17, 2013)

Dan, I wouldn't know the statistics on them but is venture to say that the production cost of the TBC bushings just isn't worth the squeeze yet. For my part it's something I looked at doing because I was getting big fit issues. I ended up going with the mandrel saver and it got rid of most of if not all my fit problems. I might someday go TBC but for now there are other things I'm concentrating on. At least until I have fit problems that I can't solve again. 

I also think the statistics would be hard to capture unless you only stayed within the micro community if those that turn pens on this site and would answer that question. Just my 2 bits.


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## Dale Allen (Jun 17, 2013)

I hope there never is mass produced TBC bushings.
The quality of something that would come out of such a source may be no better fit than the ones made for a mandrel.  Some are good...some not so good.
I doubt you would get the tight tolerances that JohnnyCNC makes.

Also, since we have all seen how the tube specs vary from one source to the next there would need to be way too many variations of the same bushings.


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## mredburn (Jun 17, 2013)

I dont use a mandrel, I turn between bushings,but I dont have bushings for any kit rather I have bushings for each tube size. I simply make a bushing that will barely fit in the tube and then a small shoulder to catch the tube.  One pair of bushings for each tube size.


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## sbell111 (Jun 18, 2013)

edstreet said:


> Er ok check this out.
> 
> More advanced/silled/etc as in those coming to pen turning from other areas who already have a lathe and doing other turnings, those who have been turning for some time and getting into the more advanced areas i.e. kitless, closed end and the like will mostly be forced into TBC setups and lack of a mandrel.
> 
> ...


I would bet that it's far less than you are giving it credit for, even among experienced pen makers active on this site.


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## hard hat (Jun 18, 2013)

Is it going mainstream? No. Is it gaining popularity? Yes. TBC came about as a product of a small group of turners desiring a better end product than what the commercially available products at the time could offer. 

The ~2500 active members on this site cannot be seen as an adequate core sample of all pen turners so, to say that something that is being commonly done here is common equally common everywhere would be incorrect. 

As far as what is better? are YOU happy with the quality of your product and proud for the recipient to tie your name to it? If so, then congratulations you have been successful. 

The only wrong way is the unsafe way


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## jttheclockman (Jun 18, 2013)

skiprat said:


> There seems to be some confusion every time this subject comes up...
> 
> Turning between centres WITH bushings or WITHOUT bushings??. Some answer it differently.
> 
> ...


 

Liked your speach and I second everything you said. Too much thinking goes on here for such trivial things. There are many many many ways of doing pens and anything else that is produced in this world. No right or wrong way. If it works for you continue to do it. Why not.


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## jyreene (Jun 18, 2013)

I think I've found many wrong ways! Mainly involved getting hit in be chest with something!


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## Dale Allen (Jun 18, 2013)

jyreene said:


> I think I've found many wrong ways! Mainly involved getting hit in be chest with something!



OOOOOUUUUUCCCCCHHHHHH!


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## jyreene (Jun 18, 2013)

Dale Allen said:


> OOOOOUUUUUCCCCCHHHHHH!



Half the reason I stopped trying to make bowls and haves bunch of bowl blanks lying around!


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## Dale Allen (Jun 18, 2013)

jyreene said:


> Dale Allen said:
> 
> 
> > OOOOOUUUUUCCCCCHHHHHH!
> ...



Hehe...I just have to ask what the other half is?

Wait...let me guess.  It's because nobody seems to appreciate bowls as much as you do and they have no idea how much time and effort goes into one.   That's my story anyway!


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## jyreene (Jun 19, 2013)

Dale Allen said:


> Hehe...I just have to ask what the other half is?
> 
> Wait...let me guess.  It's because nobody seems to appreciate bowls as much as you do and they have no idea how much time and effort goes into one.   That's my story anyway!



The other half was getting hit in the face. Well maybe third. The final third is I have to learn how to cut it round with a hand saw until I can follow all the great advice here bad fix my bandsaw!


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## Smitty37 (Jun 20, 2013)

If a demand grows for TBC bushings the big suppliers will start stocking and selling them - very likely they will be drilled for a mandrel as well and will be no more expensive and no better than the stock bushings today - to turn a stock bushing into a TBC bushing takes one more operation in the manufacture and when you're turning them out like McDonald turns out hamburgers, that is a nit.


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