# Public Apology



## jtdesigns (Mar 5, 2010)

After being called out for claiming the "work" as my own by Mr. Gross (I actually did make the pen from watch parts) I must formally acknowledge that my pen ("my" being the pen I made not my idea) is not of an original idea by me. Apparently, while there is no patent on pen, there is a copyright by Barry Gross, since he is the first person to put watch parts on a pen and cast in resin. There is also a copyright on casting cigar labels, bottle caps, and flies (fishing) by Mr. Gross. I have unintentionally caused damage to the livelihood of Mr. Gross. Out of respect, I will not be sharing any pictures of pens that I make that might infringe on someone's livelihood or claim any work as my own original idea. I really thought that in regards to pen making, there are very few original ideas. I just wonder if segmenting, resin casting, and bullet cartridge pens are copyrighted because I have made and sold these too. 

Thank you all for your compliments, I do appreciate it and feel that is a just reward for a lot of time spent on these watch pens (about 8 hours each one.......but not my idea). Thanks again, and I really do feel bad for stirring this hornet's nest.

Jeff Tate


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## Scoots (Mar 5, 2010)

That's interesting about the copyright, because he was at the AAW symposium and told us how to make those pens and sell them.  I don't remember him mentioning anything about a copyright on the pen or warning us not to post pictures of the pens if we make them.  He seemed pretty open about it.


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## Glass Scratcher (Mar 5, 2010)

Barry strikes again...


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## bobjackson (Mar 5, 2010)

Jeff
The pens you made were beautiful. I cannot see how you infringed upon anyone. There's room, in this big world for more than one of anything, and some people just have to get over it.

Bob


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## islandturner (Mar 5, 2010)

jtdesigns said:


> Apparently, while there is no patent on pen, there is a copyright by Barry Gross, since he is the first person to put watch parts on a pen and cast in resin. There is also a copyright on casting cigar labels, bottle caps, and flies (fishing) by Mr. Gross. I have unintentionally caused damage to the livelihood of Mr. Gross.


 
It would be interesting to hear from someone who is knowledgable about patent law. What if someone tried to patent the process of applying oil based paint with brushes to a canvass, in a representation of a landscape scene with a nice mountain in the background? Or of the process of melting bronze and pouring it in its molten form, into presculped molds? It wouldn't fly.

These pens are art, and I can't think of any other type of art where the process of creating it is copyright. Obvioulsy, it should be illegal to make an exact forged copy of any valuable piece of art, and to represent it as another person's work. 

Interesting....


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## USAFVET98 (Mar 5, 2010)

If that is true, I have to say it is pretty messed up. Especially somebody like Barry Gross who writes books about this. if he is really like that, I will be very disappointed. 

Why would he copyright an idea that he shows people how to make? Just makes no sense to me! ?????


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## Jmhoff10500 (Mar 5, 2010)

I ask this with respect, but how in the heck can you have the copyright of an idea!?!?!? Does that mean we should all start copy writing everything so we can make a squak about it whenever anyone else does something that you get on a forum to share? Isn't Pen turning a Community? If there is such a Copyright in place, i would like to see it, because not only your clock pen would be on that list, but 20% of every pen posted in the SOYP Forums would be... 

And by the way, If you have a copyright on cast cigar labels, and bottle caps, you are stealing the label copyrights of those companies who produce the bottle caps and cigar labels, so this whole accusation seems contradictory. If in any way, i don't understand, please explain to me, because it seems like we all kind of partake in someone else ideas at one time or another... 

The Absolute only way i could see Gross having a problem with this is if:
1. You obtained a kit he made, and passed it off as your own, or
2. You Copied exactly his , parts utilized, processes, and the final product was indistinguishable, then maybe then..

But YOU Cast the blanks, YOU obtained the parts, YOU took the time to Make the work of art, and this dude, (i haven't heard of him) should get over it!

It take a strong man to apologize, but just because one person crushes your ideas, don't be afraid to share your creations!


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## RAdams (Mar 5, 2010)

Yeah, i also think that kinda sucks. I wonder how he gets around using the labels of other companies in his copywrited idea??!!


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## USAFVET98 (Mar 5, 2010)

I can understand a copyright  on the photos and exact wording in his books as the book has a copyright. If you are using your own photos of work you have done based on someone elses idea of it, that has to be legal. Now if you use his photo and say its yours, thats illegal.

I have a questions......   Why would anyone in their right mind advertise an item that they made and cite someone else as the design originator? Isnt that advertising for him?


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## chriselle (Mar 5, 2010)

Jeff, ....I was going to write a long post on this but....na,  all I have to say is..I just don't get it.  

Glad I got to see your pens.  :good:


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## RAdams (Mar 5, 2010)

A quick search of the copyright website didn't show anything about pens being copyrighted by Barry Gross. Doesn't mean he isn't the copyright owner... Just doesn't prove he is.


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## bgray (Mar 5, 2010)

Here's Barry's pen...






This is the pen in question...




They are hands down identical, and one is copyrighted.  Whether we like it or not, this seems simple.


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## Jmhoff10500 (Mar 5, 2010)

They have a different layout, pen kit, clock face, and clock pieces!!! There may be a copyright on that one pen, but there is no way that the idea is copyrighted!!!


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## bgray (Mar 5, 2010)

I'm not defending either side.

The fact is - the idea of using recycled watch parts is unique enough to be granted a copyright.


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## Penl8the (Mar 5, 2010)

I just went over to his site also, this page (http://www.bgartforms.com/Finished_Gallery_of_Pens.htm). There is this "Beer Lover's Pen - recycled beer caps". Take a closer look - I can recognize the Coor's beer cap. I wonder what "Molson Coors Brewing Company" would think of that?

I wish I could decipher what it says on watch face on the "Tempus Fountain or Roller Ball Pen". I wonder if that is/was a Timex watch. I wonder what Timex (http://www.timex.com/) would think of that?

The cigar band pen, you can clearly see the Ashton Cigar band (see here http://www.ashtoncigar.com/Ashton-VSG.jsp). I wonder that Ashton Distributors Inc. would think of that?

I can understand he has a copyright on the name "Eco-Friendly Pens" (vs. all the other pens are not eco-friendly).

I wonder which part of his watch pen his has "copyright" on? The process of painting the tube black, using CA to glue the little gears/cogs, casting a blank using PR, turning a blank with glued up watch parts encased in a small quantity of cured polyester resin? But that would be a patent, according to Wikipedia:

the term patent usually refers to a right granted to anyone who invents or discovers any new and useful process, machine, article of manufacture, or composition of matter, or any new and useful improvement thereof.​But surely he didn't mean - a patent?


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## jttheclockman (Mar 5, 2010)

I think he may have to look these people up if he is going to claim a cpyright on the idea. Heck $19,000 he could own one too.

http://www.slipperybrick.com/2008/10/19k-pen-with-watch-parts-that-dont-work/



And another  http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=3789000&id=48120638195


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## Canedriver (Mar 5, 2010)

LOL good luck to that individual enforcing that so called copyright.

The following is copied directly from the copyright laws.

_"Copyright does not protect ideas, concepts, systems, or methods of doing something. You may express your ideas in writing or drawings and claim copyright in your description, but be aware that copyright will not protect the idea itself as revealed in your written or artistic work."_

_"You CANNOT copyright works consisting entirely of information that is common property and containing no original authorship (for example: standard calendars, height and weight charts, tape measures and rulers, and lists or tables taken from public documents or other common sources)"_

I am not an attorney but the argument can be made that setting pieces in resin is common property as it applies to a whole array of ideas and products other then pens. 

What this means is if nobody owns a copyright on the "set pieces in resin" idea then he is going to have one hell of a time enforcing the copyright on that pen. He would have to prove that he is the original author of the idea to set pieces into resin. If he could prove that then it it not considered "common property" and he wouldn't be going after you, he would be going after the big pen sites who have the money.


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## junosdad (Mar 5, 2010)

The pens in question (thanks for the photos) appear to be more than 10% different as noted above, which is the commonly accepted determinator for 'identical'.

As for the process of casting watch parts in acrylic and turning it into a pen....likely not sufficient to claim as one's own.

This entire thread makes me sad.

As I deal with these issues in another portion of my life, I will offer this advice:  Infringement applies only to the sale of the items.  (Which is interesting in light of the Molson/Ashton discussion above)
Copyright does not apply to posting photos of items you have made, as you properly represented (and gave due credit for the concept).  The original post merely showed its creator's handiwork (which was exceptional - well done).

Equally, you would be free to gift the items.  The sticky issue (and although I don't beleive that this is a case of infringement, since I'm not an attorney that deals with these issues, I cannot intelligently make that decision) applies only should you have received something of value from the exchange.

It is sad to me that Mr. Gross would elect not to play with others.  While that is his perogative, it is a bit disappointing, as to my way of thinking, it is working with each concept, and trying to take them to the next level that causes progress in our endeavors.

I heartily congratulate both pen makers on having created something that is breathtaking.

Worth everything you paid for it,
Sam


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## Jmhoff10500 (Mar 5, 2010)

Even then, it's extremely unlikely that a copyright would be taken out on an individual pen because with the rising charge of copyright/ patent expenses rising, the expenses would make the useless. If one were to be a louse enough to copyright a single pen, the documentation would read as such:

" object is made from a jr gent pen blank with 2 32mm gears, 17 risers, 1 balast spindle, 1/2 gear ratio reducer.../ in the upper rude vicinity at exactly 12degrees rotation from the clip..." And so on for every piece and orientation throughout the pen... It is absolutely impossible to replicate a pen to the point where it would be witheld under that pattent.

It's a sad day when anything like this happens because it would become impossible to do penturning! 

It's like saying " you can't use the color blue in your blank because I have a copyright on that color in all applications of penturning" 

Or "Noone can put the word elephant in the title of their next book because I have that word copyrighted in the whole world of books!!!"

Or even, " you can't put a green sky in your painting because I have a copyright on green skies"

I can go on and on...

That's not how it works!!!


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## jtdesigns (Mar 5, 2010)

Apparently it doesn't matter if labels, watch parts, etc. are used, it is considered a "derivative" work which is able to be copyrighted.  I will take him at his word on this.  I really did not mean for this to be a slam against Barry......just an apology.  Sorry for getting everyone upset.


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## 2bgross (Mar 5, 2010)

Jeff apologized and I accepted - here are my thoughts - Intellectual Property can be copyrighted.  When I publish my books the publisher and I both enjoy a copyright for that book or DVD.  I did extensive research on the idea of placing watch parts, beer caps, cigar labels and fsihing fly lures on pen tubes and casting them in clear acrylic.  This is call a "derivative work" and as such I can use watch parts, beer caps, cigar labels etc, because I am NOT selling a brand name watch, or beer or a cigar.  I am using discarded material and creating a piece of art.
Yes, at the AAW I explainded how to make some of these pens and if you looked closely at the powerpoint presentation, there was a copyright symbol on the Eco-Friendly pens.  I also said that I did not mind nor do I mind if you choose to make one for yourself but I do mind if you commercially market the pens as your own creation. 
Jeff and I met in Ohio at the pen show and we did speak on the phone several timesa since the show. I coached him on how to make the watch pen because he told me he wanted to make one for his father and himself and when I saw the posting on this site stating  "My Latest Creations--Complexity of Time"  and "This is from my Complexity of Time Series." Which implies that its his idea, and certainly states that he has made more, and will continue - by saying it's a series. That is where I have to draw a line in the sand to protect my intellectual property! - Barry Gross


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## jtdesigns (Mar 5, 2010)

I have to be honest, I did make one for my father and one for myself.  Everyone who saw this pen encouraged me to continue and poor judgement clouded reason and logic.  I did not mean to imply "my Complexity of Time  series" was a watch pen of my idea.  I simply thought it would be a catchy title for my interpretation/evolvement of an idea by Barry.  Anyway, I will try and come up with something to cast in resin that is unique enough I can exhibit and share with others.......maybe nose boogers glued to a pen tube.:tongue.  Yes, I have no class whatsoever.


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