# Sierra problem (UPDATE)



## alamocdc (Dec 6, 2005)

I know I'm not the only one turning Sierras, but I've discovered a problem that I don't recall seeing anything about yet. The puzzling thing about this is I consider it a major flaw. I like the pen well enough and it goes together well... sort of. Here's where I discovered the problem. On every single one I've done, regardless of the plating, the transmission screws VERY sloppily into the nib assembly. The first one I did, I thought it was just a tolerance thing since the pen seemed to work fine once I got the tranny properly seated. However, on each one since, I've had to work with the tranny to get them seated so the pen will go together correctly. If you'll take one out and examine it, you'll notice that right up until the tranny bottoms tightens up you can move it around in all directions by what appears to be several hundreths of an inch. [V] I've even had one that took me several minutes of tweaking before the barrel looked right on it. 

I really like the kit so I hope they fix it, but I'm not sure if they've even noticed. Has anyone else noticed this?

UPDATE - 12/08/05: I emailed Berea about the problem and Jim replied, thanking me for the information and suggested I give Larry a call. So I did. Just got off the phone w/him in fact. They know that the threads are loose, but feel that since the "play" goes away when "fully" tightened, and as long as the barrel is not cut too long or too short, there is no problem w/the kit. Larry said he's made about 35 of them and doesn't see any problems with them at all. No names were used, but I mentioned Ron's problem since I had him on the phone and he said he has one he carries to show people and he unscrews it and screws it back together several times a day, no problem. Long story short... and I'm paraphrasing here... literally thousands of these have been turned successfully and they see no need to change anything. Sound familiar? I'm still hopeful that this will get changed. After all, they did retool those loose bushings that there was nothing wrong with, didn't they?


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## retiredtog (Dec 6, 2005)

Hadn't noticed till now, it does move around but when tight it seems fine.


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## Chuck Key (Dec 7, 2005)

Even more annoying to me is the problem that Ron M. reported a few days ago.

If you extend the refill to writing position then twist the barrel to the right beyond the point of full extention the pen falls apart and would appear broken to the customer.  

Chuckie


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## alamocdc (Dec 7, 2005)

I guess I missed that one, Chuckie. That's not good!


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## Randy_ (Dec 7, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Chuck Key_
> <br />Even more annoying to me is the problem that Ron M. reported a few days ago.
> 
> If you extend the refill to writing position then twist the barrel to the right beyond the point of full extention the pen falls apart and would appear broken to the customer.



It would be nice if that were not the case; but I really don't see it as a big problem.  Seems to me that it is a simple matter of educating the customer at the sale??


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## Ron Mc (Dec 7, 2005)

Billy,
I have noticed this problem and hope that it is fixed withing a few months. I have a couple on my desk and have been jiggling the transmission around. It almost appears that the threads on the transmission are not the same thread type as the nib assembly. What I mean is the male threads on the transmission or spread apart farther than the female threads in the nib assembly.
Boy I'm glad someone noticed my original post! I pretty much decided that I was alone on the issue yet I knew that the problem was there.


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## Old Griz (Dec 7, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Randy__
> <br />
> 
> 
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Which is all fine and good, but should be have to instruct the customer that if they twist the pen a bit to far it will fall apart..
How about the customer that is buying the pen as a gift and does not think to tell the person they are giving the pen too.
There should be some kind of positive stop to keep this from happening.. 
For the money spent on quality kits, we should expect the kit to work properly and not have to warn the potential customer of any faults in the kit...


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## alamocdc (Dec 7, 2005)

Agreed, Griz! If we have to educate our customers about product idiosyncrasies that doesn't speak well for product quality. At least to me. So why have we put up w/Windows for so long? [}]

Ron, I just took one of mine past full extension and nothing happened. How about a link to your post so I can read the details?

EDIT: Never mind, I found it. I have 4 Sierras with me now and unscrewed all of them to get to the refill and screwed them back together with no problems. This has to be related to the same threading issue.


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## wayneis (Dec 7, 2005)

The threading is not a major issue to me, it tighten up and works just as it is supposed to without playing around.  Maybe a small problem and I suppose that eventually they will correct the threads but I'm not going to loose sleep over it untill they do.

As far as what Ron has found, I also do not see this as a problem.  I already show my people how to take each pen apart and what to do and not to do.  In fact most of us has some kind of a letter that goes with the pen that states all the "How to treat your pen" info.  Right there is where I would include how to take it apart and I would explain that if they do unscrew it by accident it really is not broke.  No biggie to me.  As far as I am concerned this is not much different than explaining fountain pens to someone who has no experence with them.

Wayne


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## Randy_ (Dec 7, 2005)

Precisely what I was thinking, Wayne.  Thanks for saving me the time of having to post that comment!!


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## Chuck Key (Dec 7, 2005)

I have heard a $90.00 selling price tossed around for Scotts piano Sierra.  So Scott has three good selling points to pitch to a potential customer.

#1.  Look at the great job I did on the fit of this pen using the beer can fix on the bushings.

#2.  DO NOT twist the pen this way it will wiggle like a loose tooth!

#3.  DO NOT twist the pen that way or drop it it is put together with a loose press fit and will fall apart if you do so.

Thank you for the $90.00

Chuckie


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## alamocdc (Dec 7, 2005)

Well at least a few of us are singing from the same sheet of music. My TN Sierras start at $55 (wood blank); Burls are $65. If I have to tell the customer, "Make sure you don't...", then I don't feel comfortable selling the pen. That's why I test everything I make first.

Again, I didn't post this to start an argument. I just wanted to know if anyone else noticed the problem I did. As yet, I have been unable to reproduce Ron's discrepancy and I hope it stays that way. However, these types of problems should not exist in the first place.


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## Randy_ (Dec 7, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Chuck Key_
> <br />.....If you extend the refill to writing position then twist the barrel to the right beyond the point of full extention the pen falls apart and would appear broken to the customer.



I haven't read Rons post; but Chuckie has it backwards.  If you twist the pen beyond full extension, you will break it!!  Actually, what happens is that when you "RETRACT" the refill, the transmission will unscrew if you go too far.  But, this also happens with the cigar pens and, I suspect, with any pen with a Parker twist mechanisms.  Wonder why no one has ever complained about the other kits??

Do you inform your customers how to use a converter if they buy a fountain pen or that they need to remove the little plastic cover on the tips of the rollerball cartridge or how to break in a FP nib??  All pens have their own operating peculiarities and I do not find it unreasonable to have to inform my customere of each pens special needs.  This sounds to me like the person who tries to set up a new VCR without reading the instructions and them moans because it doesn't work just like his old one???


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## Randy_ (Dec 7, 2005)

> _Originally posted by alamocdc_
> <br />....If I have to tell the customer, "Make sure you don't...", then I don't



Hey Billy:  I know you weren't trying to start a debate...just looking to get an answer to a question as most all of us are; but I find it impossible to understand why people are so reluctant to inform a client about how to operate a product.  Buy a car or a dishwasher or a VCR or a Jet lathe and you will get an instruction book detailing the things to do and to "NOT" do when operating the item.  I know pens are relatively common and fairly simple to operate; but it totally escapes me why everyone should be expected to instinctively know how to operate any specific individual pen.  I have heard stories about folks who ruined pens with screw-on caps when they pulled off the cap and the coupling because they didn't know the pen had a threaded cap.  Don't think mot people would consider a screw  cap as a defect; but obviously some folks needed a little education in those cases???


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## Randy_ (Dec 7, 2005)

> _Originally posted by alamocdc_
> <br />....If you'll take one out and examine it, you'll notice that right up until the tranny bottoms tightens up you can move it around in all directions by what appears to be several hundreths of an inch....I really like the kit so I hope they fix it, but I'm not sure if they've even noticed. Has anyone else noticed this?



Billy:  Yeah, mine do it too; but I'm not sure it is a defect.  I think it might be by design.  My Cigar pen has a twist-Parker mechanism; but joins the coupler with a very fine thread.  Problem with fine threads is they are somewhat delicate and are much easier to cross-thread and or strip out.  Perhaps the designers of the Sierra kit went to a coarser thread to avoid those problems??  I agree that the wiggling looks a little peculiar; but as long as the transmission is snug and straight when it is tight, I don't see it as a problem??


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## alamocdc (Dec 7, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Randy__
> I haven't read Rons post; but Chuckie has it backwards.  If you twist the pen beyond full extension, you will break it!!  Actually, what happens is that when you "RETRACT" the refill, the transmission will unscrew if you go too far.  But, this also happens with the cigar pens and, I suspect, with any pen with a Parker twist mechanisms.  Wonder why no one has ever complained about the other kits??
> 
> Do you inform your customers how to use a converter if they buy a fountain pen or that they need to remove the little plastic cover on the tips of the rollerball cartridge or how to break in a FP nib??  All pens have their own operating peculiarities and I do not find it unreasonable to have to inform my customere of each pens special needs.  This sounds to me like the person who tries to set up a new VCR without reading the instructions and them moans because it doesn't work just like his old one???



Not the same thing at all. In Ron's post he noted that in so doing you could NOT screw the tranny back on, but had to disassemble the pen to get it back together... unlike a cigar or any of the other Parker style twist pens I've done. Explain all you want. Customers will forget. And in the process either complain to the one that gave them the pen, or quit using it. They may not be able to contact the pens creator at all. I consider that a problem. Especially for something I'm charging in excess of $50 for.


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## alamocdc (Dec 7, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Randy__
> <br />
> 
> 
> ...



See last reply.


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## alamocdc (Dec 7, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Randy__
> <br />
> 
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> ...



Got any coarse thread nuts and bolts? I have a drawer full and can send you a sample. I guarantee you that if they fit as sloppy loose as this does, they are defective. On more than one of my Sierras, I've had to unscrew and rethread the tranny coupler to get it to sit so that it did look cockeyed. When you screw it on and it looks angled to the naked eye, it probably is. If they don't look right, I uncrew them and reseat them. Yes, once they are tight they APPEAR to be okay, but appearances can be deceiving.


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## wayneis (Dec 7, 2005)

Billy you are wrong, I have one right in front of me that I use every day and if I unscrew it like we are talking about it screws right back on.  I don't really know what you are doing but I've done several of them and don't have a problem with them.  

Wayne


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## Ron Mc (Dec 7, 2005)

I wanted t jump in here because I see that this seems to turned into a thread of one pen turner against another.
First off it seems to me that a typical customer will unscrew the pen regardless of what type it is to the left to replace a refill. I have now run into 4 occasions that this doesn't work due to the fact that you can't screw it back together. To date I have made somewhere about 40 Sierra's so I understand that the ratio may look good but this does bring up the question of what WE tell our customers. Do we have to explain that on a Cigar pen they can unscrew to the left but on a Sierra They have to pull the upper part off and then unscrew the mechanism? This isn't the only issue I have run into with the kit. I have also had a kit in which the mechanism was so bent that the nip looked crooked on the pen.
Don't get me wrong. I like this kit and will continue to make and sell it. I just feel that us pen turners should take care of each other and mention problems that do arise. This way we can save each other time and energy when we are making our pens.
For instance, I have told many new pen turners to check all threads both male and female before they put any pen kits together. Tonight I was on my last of a 5 pen order and I didn't check the female threads. I'll be darned if there weren't any. But because I didn't check them I had a problem on my hands. Now I wonder about all the turners out there that have headed my advise and saved themselves a major problem?
With the Sierra kit I have decided to include instructions on replacing the refill. As far as I am concerned I should not have to do this to avoid a customer complaint. Does no one else see that the threads do seem loose on this kit? This would truly surprise me. You know as darn as several of us know that these threads are loose. I say we stand together as the pen turning family that we are and ask for tighter threads.
One more note. If I was buying a car and the sales rep told me that in order to put gas in the car I had to very gently unscrew the cap and then gently screw it back on because it may not work I wouldn't buy the car.


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## alamocdc (Dec 8, 2005)

Wayne, I'm very happy for you, but you obviously didn't read all of my posts. If you had, you'd see clearly where I mentioned that I had NOT been able to duplicate Ron's problem. At least not yet. But I take Ron at his word. If he says it won't screw back together, then it won't screw back together. Period. So who's wrong here?

Thanks, Ron! That was my whole point of making this post to begin with. 

I'm sorry I called someone's sacred shrine into question. [:0] But do excuse me for not worshipping our suppliers. Any of them. They are run and owned by PEOPLE and people are fallable! Myself included. Especially me. Just not about this. []


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## wayneis (Dec 8, 2005)

My point has always been that pissing and moaning here will not accomplish a darn thing, if when we have a problem we pick up the phone and let the Company know thats how we'll get them fixed.  Out of everyone who has complained about this kit, who phoned the Company?  Did anyone call BB or do we just complain here and wait for the fix to magicly happen.  Two or three years ago we had very little choice in kits and finishes but because of several people working closely with the Companies and expressing our wants and needs look at what we have today.  That didn't happen by just complaining on an internet forum, it happened by building a relationship with these companies and working with them.  

Wayne


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## alamocdc (Dec 8, 2005)

Okay, Wayne, I just sent an email to Berea describing the problem in detail. Not as a complaint, but a concern to be brought to the attention of their QC folks just in case they were unaware. I guess we'll see what comes of it.

Update posted in my original post.


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## Chuck Key (Dec 8, 2005)

> _Originally posted by wayneis_
> <br />I have one right in front of me that I use every day
> I've done several of them and don't have a problem with them.
> 
> Wayne



Wayne,

Since this is your personal pen and nothing will be broken by doing this please try this:

Extend the refill as far as it will go.
For illustration, grasp the nib section in one hand and the barrel in the other and give the pen a firm twist as though you were trying to extend the refill further.  At the same time you might just put a bit a pressure with your hands as though trying to pull the pen apart.  No need to be aggressive here just firm.  Again, nothing will break doing this!

Now, give us as an objective report on the results of this research as possible.

Chuckie

PS Randy, you might try the same test.


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## Randy_ (Dec 8, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Chuck Key_
> <br />...PS Randy, you might try the same test....



Nothing happens, Chuckie!!  As I mentioned in a prior post in this thread, I think you have it backward.  If I do as you suggest when "RETRACTING" the cartridge rather than "EXTENDING" it, the the transmission unscrews from the coupler.  But this also happens with my cigar pen and, I suspect, any kit using a twist mechanism and a Parker-type refill.  I don't have a completed Sierra right now so I can check whether the transmission can be reattached without disassembling the cap; but the cigar pen goes right back together without any problem.  

Chuckie:  I'm not and never have suggested that the situation does not exist.  Only that a simple instruction to the buyer would eliminate the problem except for a few people who don't understand or just plain forget.  And I do wonder why this is considered to be such a big problem with the Sierra kit.  As I mentioned before, the Cigar pens do the same thing and they are a very popular kit and I have never heard this complaint about them??


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## wayneis (Dec 8, 2005)

Chuckie I don't know or care what you are getting at or trying to prove but only an idiot would try to overextend and break a pen in half.  If you want to play games with your pens have at it.  If a customer did this to a pen that I made then it would be their tuff luck.

Wayne


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## Ron Mc (Dec 8, 2005)

Well.....It looks to me like we are all in agreement that there are certain issues with the Sierra pens that need to be explained to the customers as with all pen styles. Fantastic.
Isn't it interesting how when a thread can get to a certain level if another members name is actually used to begin the thread or paragraph that it appears to be "non friendly or argumentative"?
Maybe we need a new area to post in which fellow pen turners can point out the good, bad, and ugly about kits and wood types so that everyone can learn from it. Might be a 
good idea.
Now this brings me to another issue with a different kit! LOL
BTW...I spoke with both Bill and the manufacturer in regards to the twist mechanism I believe last week and will be sending a bad one to them. This is a great selling kit and I intent to continue selling it with a few paperwork modifications for my buyers.


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## Rifleman1776 (Dec 9, 2005)

This thread has convinced me to stay away from the Sierra. I don't like problems and sure don't want to sell problems that will come back to haunt me. If pen use has to be explained, that is a design fault.


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## wayneis (Dec 9, 2005)

This is exactly why I had a problem with posting something untill you talk to the company that made it first.  This has been so blown out that now people will not make the kit.  Its BS and for no reason.  Don't all of you show every customer how to change the refill in their new pen?  Some of them pull apart, some of them unscrew and some both but unless we take a minute to explain to the customer he or she may end up breaking it and come back to us crying about it.  This to me is the same type of instance, once you show the customer the correct way to change the refill for the pen they should not have a problem.  Frank ask yourself why these people who are talking about this kit keep making them.  Who stated that he had made at least forty of them.  If there is such a big problem why would anyone keep on making the stupid things.  Go into the photo albums and you will probably see a hundred of them.  

Wayne



> _Originally posted by Rifleman_
> <br />This thread has convinced me to stay away from the Sierra. I don't like problems and sure don't want to sell problems that will come back to haunt me. If pen use has to be explained, that is a design fault.


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## Rifleman1776 (Dec 9, 2005)

Wayne, of all the items in the world, a pen is, or should be, one of the simplest things there is to operate. Enough complications and potential problems have been stated with this product that I choose to avoid it.


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## Mudder (Dec 9, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Rifleman_
> <br />This thread has convinced me to stay away from the Sierra. I don't like problems and sure don't want to sell problems that will come back to haunt me. If pen use has to be explained, that is a design fault.




So.... Your customers inherently know how to change the refill in any type of pen you sell [?][?][?]. There are two ways that I know of to change the cartridge in a cigar pen. Would they know how to change the cartridge in an executive[?], a polaris[?], a classic american[?]. I have made up a simple instruction sheet that I give out with each and every pen I sell. It is a simple write up with a couple of pictures explaining how to change the refill and exactly what refill the pen uses. You would be surprised how many folks would be lost if they were asked to change the refill in a simple slimline. I have made nearly a hundred sierra's and so far have sold 74. So far I have not had a single complaint and I know of 4 customers who have either changed out the refill for a gel or a different color ink. The reason I know of 4 is that they have called me to say thanks for the instructions.


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## Rifleman1776 (Dec 9, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Mudder_
> <br />
> 
> 
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Good for you. It's <b></b>MY decision. What's to criticize?


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## Mudder (Dec 9, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Rifleman_
> <br />
> 
> 
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Same questions can be asked of you. Why do you constantly criticize?


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## Old Griz (Dec 9, 2005)

I have a fantastic idea concerning this kit and those who have decided to make it and those who have decided to stay away from it.. 
This is really a very simple solution.... really it is.. 
To those of you who want to keep making these pens - KEEP MAKING THEM AND SELLING THEM
To those of you who have decided to not make this kit (for whatever reason) - FIND ONE YOU LIKE MAKING

See real simple and no reason to complain or torment each other...


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## jkoehler (Dec 9, 2005)

for those that have decided to not make them anymore.
please throw your "junk" my way.[]


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## wayneis (Dec 9, 2005)

No Griz its not quite that simple.  Where is the insentives for the Companies to keep making new kits when we have crap like this going on.

Wayne


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## alamocdc (Dec 9, 2005)

I posted what I percieved as a threading problem, and still do. I also spoke to the manufacturer and while they admitted the fit is loose, they do not see it as a problem. This I posted as well. If reaching out to my fellow pen turners for affirmation, or sharing an experience w/a new kit w/them is crap, then sue me.

Moderator, please lock this thread. This has gone quite far enough.


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## Ron Mc (Dec 9, 2005)

Thanks for posting what could have been a potential problem. In looks to me like several pen makers Will now be including directions with pens to there customers. I'd say that the original post was worthwhile.


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## Mudder (Dec 9, 2005)

Billy,

I have noticed the thread problem that you speak of. I apologize if my post upset you.

I would like to share a little "trick" that I learned from my days as a Quality inspector. My job required that I had to check hundreds of a particular part with a "plug gage" and sometimes the gage got stuck in a tight or undersized bore. rather that use a pair of pliers or a vise to extract the stuck gage I had to find a method to remove the gage without damage to it or the part.

I have attached two photographs of what someone had showed me. Yep, a plain old rubber band. I use this technique on all my pens to cinch up the transmission and I also put it into my "instruction sheet" that I give to my customers with every pen sold. If you have seen this method before that's fine.......Maybe there are a couple out there that have not thought of it yet and if I can give just a little hint to one person then the day is a good one.






<br /><br />


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## wdcav1952 (Dec 9, 2005)

Mudder,

Good idea.  Could you use one of those rubber sheets that improve your grip on the lid of the new bottle of dill pickle spears as well? []


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## alamocdc (Dec 9, 2005)

No, Scott, your post didn't upset me. No one else's did either for that matter. It's just that this post went every where except where I envisioned and I got tired of feeling beat up over it. And never seemed to focus on the original point... the threads are not cut right. Yes you can still tighten the mechanism up, and yes I will continue to make these as long as they sell, or until the quality gets so bad I find them no longer exceptable. And yes, I will continue to expain to my customers how to change the refills. But none of that was the original point. Nor was I trying to cast dispersions on the kit. Only what seems to be a lack of QC in a new kit. But if no one cares, so be it. The evidence is clear, at least to those willing to look at it. Some would rather blindly accept what they are given. I have no problem with that as long as they don't expect the same of me.

I have a question for you about your little trick. After using the rubber band to tighten the tranny can you still unscrew it with the barrel on? I'm not trying to be critical, I'm just thinking it might be too tight for that. Or is that the point?


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## Mudder (Dec 9, 2005)

> _Originally posted by alamocdc_
> <br />I have a question for you about your little trick. After using the rubber band to tighten the tranny can you still unscrew it with the barrel on? I'm not trying to be critical, I'm just thinking it might be too tight for that. Or is that the point?



Bingo Buddy! I tighten it up so it cannot unscrew. And it's done by design. [] I agree that those threads are not right. In fact I can find no thread standard that they adhere to. It seems that the lower section is a square thread and the twist mechanism section is some sort of modified buttres(sp?) type thread. I hope that they will be changed for the better sometime in the future. For now, my workaround will suffice for me.




> _Originally posted by wdcav1952_
> <br /> Mudder,
> 
> Good idea. Could you use one of those rubber sheets that improve your grip on the lid of the new bottle of dill pickle spears as well?



I suppose so but rubberbands are usually close at hand and they are  cheap. I'm <s>a tightwad</s> uh....thrifty.


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## pastorbill1952 (Dec 9, 2005)

I have the kits and am preparing to turn a few hopefully next week. Question - Will loc-tite help to take up the slop in the threads & then keep them tight?


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## alamocdc (Dec 9, 2005)

I'm not sure you want to do that, Bill. The customer will need to unscrew it to change the refill.


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## pastorbill1952 (Dec 10, 2005)

They don't come with neverending ink?[]


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## Mudder (Dec 10, 2005)

> _Originally posted by pastorbill1952_
> <br />I have the kits and am preparing to turn a few hopefully next week. Question - Will loc-tite help to take up the slop in the threads & then keep them tight?



Perhaps a dab of clear nail polish in the threads. Just a drop mind you.
Trick #2; I use red nail polish to put witness marks on instruments. It does exactly the same as the stuff we bought for $18.00 a bottle except that it's about $16.50 cheaper.

It will however make the pen a bear to come apart and then there is a powdery substance from the nail polish that might make some folks upset. DAMHIKT


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## Thumbs (Dec 10, 2005)

As I said before, you can learn something new here almost everyday!  Thanks, guys![]


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