# Need help with final sanding!!



## Acornelius (Feb 14, 2011)

I'm new to pen making, and this is about the best finish I can get.  I'm starting with 150 grit, then 220, 320, 400, 500 and 800.  I do a final polish with 0000 steel wool.  Then CA 6 times, re-sand with 2000 grit paper and use a friction polish.  
What do I need to do, or what am I missing?

Thanks, 

Hope the image uploads!


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## NewLondon88 (Feb 14, 2011)

The CA is going to be a lot harder and longer lasting than a friction polish, 
so you may want to eliminate that step. If you're going to apply a finish, 
you might want to stop after the 400 so that you don't seal the wood. 
This gives the finish a chance to penetrate the wood and bring out any
figure, as well as allowing the finish to get inside and bond to the wood 
fibers rather than reside on the top where it can flake off.

After the 2000, I would probably go to a plastic polish.

BUT .. there's probably as many techniques as there are pen makers..


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## Lenny (Feb 14, 2011)

Just my personal opinion ....
Sand with the various grades up to 800 (and even higher, 1000, 1200, 1500) but before going on to each next grit, stop the lathe and hand sand in the direction of the grain. Eliminate the steel wool! Others MAY disagree but I have never been a fan of steel wool on bare wood! Apply several coats of CA .. I like to use thin for the first 3 coats then medium until I'm happy with the thickness of build up. Don't be afraid to give it a squirt of excellerant between coats. Now, use micro mesh pads (I like the large ones froM WoodnWhimsies ... I cut them in half and have a spare set in waiting) ... they last a long time. Use them to wet sand your CA finish going through all the grits. When you are done you should have a nice smooth pen. Next I use Novus 2 then Plastx .... you could also use Plastic Polish OR Buff on a buffer, (See Texatdurango's article on buffing) 
hth


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## hunter-27 (Feb 14, 2011)

My only thing to add would be to get better with the tools and throw out the 150 and 220 grit.  It is very hard to get those deepscratches out no matter what you do next.  Don't get me wrong that is not to be mean, just reality.  I've been there, done that as well.  Add that to the previously mentioned stuff and you will be way better off.


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## Acornelius (Feb 16, 2011)

took all 3 advices, and the results have been by far the BEST.  I Spent more time with the skew, started to sand with 320 then went to 400, 500, 800.  I then put 3 coats of thin CA followed by 5 coats med CA, MM to 12,000 and then used Shellwax Friction Polish.  
I'm going to attend a local chapter meeting in a couple of weeks, and I'll be able to see what a proffesional pen looks like.  It will let me know how far off I am.  

Thanks for the help.  It's worked wonders.  I'm so excited I'm ready to turn another one, but it's too late to get started.  At least the weekend is coming up.


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## Texatdurango (Feb 16, 2011)

I would further suggest getting even better with the skew and eventually toss the 320 grit as well, it leaves pretty deep scratch patterns!

Another thing (a touchy subject to some), you don't HAVE to use micro mesh to get a killer finish! I haven't used micro mesh on my pens in two years and will gladly sit my pens next to anyones, and I stop sanding at 1000 or sometimes 1200 grit then buff. One of the tricks is to start sanding with as fine a grit as you can so you introduce the least amount of scratches that you have to remove with the next finer grit.

After sanding and before applying the CA, try wiping on a coating of "Mylands sanding sealer", you will be amazed at how the colors just jump out at you!  The CA goes on immediately after the sanding sealer will no ill affect.


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## crabcreekind (Feb 16, 2011)

i sand to 600 grit then use that plastic wool stuff, then use the micro mesh sanding pads to 12000 grit which makes it shine alot.i use mylands sanding sealer which covers up most scratches and then i put on high friction polish then canauba wax


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## monophoto (Feb 17, 2011)

I suggest not doing a friction finish on top of the CA - for two reasons.  First, the old woodworker's rule of thumb is that you should only use one kine of finish on a piece.  Putting a shellac or lacquer based friction polish on top of CA doesn't add anything.  And second, while I don't think there will be an interaction, why take the chance if it's not going to contributed anything to the final product.

Second, after wet-sanding with the Micromesh, I suggest using a plastic polish - Novus 2 is a good brand, but you can find several others at any autosupply store.


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## LeeR (Feb 17, 2011)

hunter-27 said:


> My only thing to add would be to get better with the tools and throw out the 150 and 220 grit. It is very hard to get those deepscratches out no matter what you do next. Don't get me wrong that is not to be mean, just reality. I've been there, done that as well. Add that to the previously mentioned stuff and you will be way better off.


 
Dittos on the sandpaper. Befriend, and tame, your skew. I am now gettin much better results using a skew, so much so that I ditched the sanding with typical sandpaper grits (150 or 220 up to 600 ot 800), and I go straight to MicroMesh. I have not done CA finishes so far, but the friction polishes or lacquer coats look much better now.


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## galoot_loves_tools (Feb 19, 2011)

When I used CA, I sanded the wood to 600, sealed with SealCoat, sanded that with 600 or 800 and went on to several coats of medium CA. I did not sand between coats of CA. After it cured, I sanded the ridges down, you have to do this with the grain. I used 600 grit sparingly, typically staying with 1500 or 2000. After sanding down the ridges, I would micromesh to 12000 and then polish with Hut plastic polish or Brasso. My finishes were glass smooth at that point. Forget the friction polish - throw it out or give it away so you won't be tempted to use it again.

Now, I dip twice in Enduro, micromesh a little, if I have to and go straight to Hut polish.


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## Fat Boy (Feb 19, 2011)

What RPM are you applying the CA at? i know when i first started the CA finish it was not coming out well because i was applying it at to high of a RPM, i now apply it at around 1100 rpms and have not had an issue since.


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## lorbay (Feb 19, 2011)

monophoto said:


> I suggest not doing a friction finish on top of the CA - for two reasons. First, the old woodworker's rule of thumb is that you should only use one kine of finish on a piece. Putting a shellac or lacquer based friction polish on top of CA doesn't add anything. And second, while I don't think there will be an interaction, why take the chance if it's not going to contributed anything to the final product.
> 
> Second, after wet-sanding with the Micromesh, I suggest using a plastic polish - Novus 2 is a good brand, but you can find several others at any autosupply store.


 + 1 on this, why put friction polish ontop of CA. Plastic polish sometimes.  (JM2C)

Lin.


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## bgio13 (Feb 19, 2011)

Not to hijack the thread but I remember reading somewhere on Russ Fairfields website where he writes that the finish you put on is only as good as the surface prep.  He suggests sanding to 600 and then MM to 12,000.  I start with 400 and after sanding with 600 still notice some scratches, but after MM the surface has more shine to it. Does this mean the finish will be any better? Russ also states that these scratches will be magnified if they are not removed. So for those that only sand to 400 or 600, do you notice any scratches? If so, will your finish of choice (CA, Minwax Poly, or Lacquer) fill in the scratches and hide them, or make them more noticeable? Learning to use the skew and starting to sand at 400 has definitely improved my finish.

Bill


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## Great Googly Moogly (Feb 19, 2011)

my 2 cents...I sand with 120, 220, 400 then 600.  At least 3 coats of medium CA.  Buff with tripoli and then white diamond...DONE.  I couldn't get a better, more durable finish.


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## Acornelius (Feb 19, 2011)

Man, the responses have been great.   I think, from the general response, I need to throw away the friction polish.  After doing some more turning I think some of my problems have been not getting the ridges off the CA after it cures.   Have done a couple since and seem to have turned out better.  
If I wanted more of a matte finish how would I achieve that?


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## termitepenman (Feb 19, 2011)

I agree about the sandpaper.  I always start at 400 grit.  I was not very competent with a skew so I tried a Sorby Spindle Master and my results really improved.


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## 76winger (Feb 19, 2011)

I can't suggest anything not already mentioned, however I disagree about throwing the friction polish out. I still use it on some of the really hard woods (ebony for example)  instead of CA. I tend to think of CA as not only glue & finish, but a hard protective coating for softer woods that might dent easily. I also don't think EVERYTHING has to have the ultra high shine that you get with acrylics and CA finishing, so the friction polish works good on harder woods for a lower sheen, and stopping at a lower number of MM when working with CA leaves a lower "sheen" on that material. 

But to build your skill, keep striving make the best you can. Then one you're proficient you can back off as desired to get the results you want.


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## 1nfinity (Feb 19, 2011)

NewLondon88 said:


> The CA is going to be a lot harder and longer lasting than a friction polish,
> so you may want to eliminate that step. If you're going to apply a finish,
> you might want to stop after the 400 so that you don't seal the wood.
> This gives the finish a chance to penetrate the wood and bring out any
> ...



I've always been curious about what level of grit to sand to.  From the responses here, some sand to 400, some to 600, some to 12000, and so on.  How does one know when a surface becomes too smooth from sanding that lack of adherence of finish to a wood surface will lead to flaking issues?  Does this apply to hardwoods only?  Does it apply to certain finishes (polyurethane, CA, etc.) only?
I generally sand from 320 to 12,000 grit.  At this point, I'm hoping the pens and stoppers I've finished with CA and sold aren't returned for flaking.
This is a good post!  It's made me rethink my sanding technique.  Thanks for any insights.


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## NewLondon88 (Feb 19, 2011)

1nfinity said:


> I've always been curious about what level of grit to sand to.  From the responses here, some sand to 400, some to 600, some to 12000, and so on.  How does one know when a surface becomes too smooth from sanding that lack of adherence of finish to a wood surface will lead to flaking issues?  Does this apply to hardwoods only?  Does it apply to certain finishes (polyurethane, CA, etc.) only?
> I generally sand from 320 to 12,000 grit.  At this point, I'm hoping the pens and stoppers I've finished with CA and sold aren't returned for flaking.
> This is a good post!  It's made me rethink my sanding technique.  Thanks for any insights.



First, I am not a know-it-all. I just play one on the internet.
But I'll take a stab at some of it. I'm no authority.. these are just the
way things are working in my head. If someone shows me a better way,
I'm all over it.

I know that like many other things, we have a tendency to fall into the
"More is better" syndrome. If 400 is good, 800 must be better. If 300dpi
is good, 28,880dpi must be better. But you reach a level of diminishing
returns at some point. For instance, the human eye can't discern over
about 600 dpi (true dpi, not Epson dpi) so having a printer with 28,000
resolution doesn't gain you anything.
I look at sanding the same way. If I can't see the scratches by eye (and
I use a magnifying visor because my eyes aren't so good) then I don't
see the need to go much further before applying a finish.

With the sanding, I might go to 12,000 on something I don't plan on 
putting a finish on. For instance, oily woods and really dense woods can
polish up nicely without a finish. And I like that soft sheen it gives.

But if you plan on putting a finish on the wood, you might try some
experimenting with wood scraps (same type, preferably same piece) and
see if sanding to a higher grit stops the wood from accepting the finish.
Sanding to too high a grit can close the pores and stop the finish from
being absorbed. If you've ever over-sanded a piece of end grain (which
ought to suck up stain like a sponge) and found that the stain just won't
take, you know what I'm talking about.

I like finishes that seep into the pores, especially oils. They get into the
grain and light it up.. sort of like creating an optical channel for the light
that hits the wood. If you don't get penetration, you just see the surface
grain. (which can also be great, don't get me wrong!) But more importantly,
if the finish doesn't penetrate the wood grain, it will simply reside on the
surface. It can peel off, chip. flake etc..  because there's nothing for it
to hold on to.

If you use a penetrating finish, the liquid goes into the wood, works its
way around the wood fibers and then cures. It hardens there, locked to
the wood grain. You might scrape off the outside if you scratch hard
enough, but the finish is now part of the wood. It isn't coming off on its
own. 
For a finish to be stable, it has to have something to grab onto.. something
to grip.. something to 'bite' into. Baby smooth shiny slippery smooth wood
might not be the best choice if you want a finish to adhere well.
That's also a good reason for scuffing up a coat of poly before applying the 
next coat.. it gives the new coat something to hold onto.
Shellacs and lacquers melt into the previous coat, so this isn't necessary


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## Acornelius (Feb 19, 2011)

NewLondon88,
Thanks.  What would you consider an oil that will get into the grain and lighten it up to get that dazzling appearance that I see on so many pens that are shown here?
I have tried BLO before the CA and it seems to work okay.  Is there something else you would recommend? 
I finished a piece of Bocote, I think, and I thought it would have looked better with a dull finish not the high gloss CA.   I sanded the CA, but have not polished it in any way.  It has that dull look not the high polish and I like it for this piece.  So, will the finish be okay like it is, or do I need to add something on top of the CA?

Also, tried the Brasso polish after a CA finish.  what's your opinion?


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## NewLondon88 (Feb 19, 2011)

Alex.. the BLO can work wonders, but doing it as part of the CA finish
might not give you that look. It needs some time and some thinner.
The thinner helps the oil penetrate further into the wood where it
will harden and become part of the blank.

Try mixing up some BLO and mineral spirits, maybe 50/50 and flooding the
blank with that. After about 45 minutes, wipe it down and put the blank
away for a few days to cure. Then you can continue with your CA finish.

Some people also do this with tung oil or danish oil

For a satin looks (or semi-gloss) polish it up to a high gloss as you normally
would, then cut back the finish with some 0000 steel wool. Going up to
the high gloss first will allow you to see any flaws under he finish so you
have a chance to fix them first. Plus, it just makes for a better finish to
go all the way and then back down a step.

You shouldn't need anything on top of the CA unless you want to use
something like a conservator's wax (ex. Renaissance Wax) to keep off
fingerprints. The CA makes a fairly durable finish on its own.

Some people swear by the Brasso, but they're often talking about the
Brasso paste, which isn't available here anymore. (if they even make it)
But it is a polishing compound, like PlastX, Hut, Novus etc. They are all
abrasives suspended in a liquid. Its just another way of sanding, really.
Some use paste like EEE, some use bars like Tripoli, Rouge, White Diamond.
They're all doing the same thing.. using fine abrasives to bring up the shine.
What you use is up to you.. the finer the particles, the higher the gloss.


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## Texatdurango (Feb 19, 2011)

Acornelius said:


> Man, the responses have been great. I think, from the general response, I need to throw away the friction polish. After doing some more turning *I think some of my problems have been not getting the ridges off the CA after it cures*. Have done a couple since and seem to have turned out better.
> If I wanted more of a matte finish how would I achieve that?


 
While everyone is just tossing around different ideas, here is one I have.

When I apply CA, I don't try to get it on "scarry thin", I just spread it on, usually on the thick side so I wind up with a look that adds the illusion of depth.  When I do this I usually wind up with some ridges and found that a quick way to eliminate the ridges was to use a skew to smooth the blank.  Once "skew smooth" I can quite often start with much finer grits and eliminate a lot of sanding.

In the library, there is an article called "turning between centers" and can quickly be found by visiting the home page and looking to the right side of the screen for the link.  I happen to agree with everything this guy says! :biggrin:

If you look at photo 17 in the tutorial you will see some pretty healthy ridges, in photo 20 you will see the skew making quick work of the ridges and creating a VERY smooth surface on which to start final sanding.

This way, you wind up with a very nice round blank with no ridges so when another pen maker asks to SEE your pen and "feels it up" with his fingers while talking with you, he won't feel any tiny ridges!

By the way....... my goal is NOT to argue processes, methods, what sandpaper works better or what liquid provides the best shine, I just would like to see a lot of pen makers make nicer pens!  I didn't arrive at what I like to do by following someones "process" to the letter so would reconmmend new turners to EXPERIMENT with ideas rather than looking for a process to follow.


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## bowtiebird12 (Feb 19, 2011)

Id say use more ca and then hit it with grantmicro mesh


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## Acornelius (Feb 19, 2011)

Newlondon88, 
Thanks again.  I think I'm going to run out now at 10:00 PM and give it whirl.  I happen to have some MS and BLO and a piece of wood that is just dying to become a pen.   I'll let you know the results.  

textadurango,
Unfortunatley I don't have the skills to use a skew like you suggest.  I've only turned 4-5 pens so far, and I tend to do more tearing and gouging than finish cutting.  I did see your article about turning between ctr's.  I wonder why the suppliers don't have bushings available as a solid with a 60° ctr for TBC.  I think it's a great idea.  I've spent numerous years running and programming CNC and manual lathes. I completely understand the advantages.  The People that don't understand the advantages of this are really missing out. 
I plan to make some of my own bushings and other misc tooling, and TBC is pretty high on my list.  But with just starting out, there's only so many new processes and procedures I can try at a time.   

As I get better I'll post some pens, but right now the only one I show them off to is my dog.  Nothing I have done today is worthy of the wow factor.


Thanks for all your help again.


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## Aussiedean (Feb 19, 2011)

*Finish a pen*

I do most of what you all say, except.
After polishing with the sanding pads after the CA, I finish by polishing using Brasso.


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