# General Wood Turner's Finish and General's Enduro-Var for CA Replacement Testing



## Shibumik (Feb 3, 2015)

*General Wood Turner’s Finish vs. General Enduro-Var...*

I, like many others out there, have been looking for an alternative to CA finishing. While I appreciate the look and feel of natural wood, many woods like burls do not hold up well to active and dirty hands, and people who purchase pens have very different ideas about the beauty and value of shine. To satisfy their needs, I began finishing with CA to develop the lustrous shine they expect. Like many of you, I don’t enjoy working with CA, it’s nasty and inconvenient stuff. However, its properties of being fast drying and durability are pretty difficult to beat.

So, my challenge was to discover a finishing process that could usurp my CA workflow. Having been familiar and a great fan of the former Water-Borne Finishes in California, I was pleased to hear they had been purchased by General Finishes. After years of working with water-based finishes, I have come to love their properties. They are different because they are colorless, which does take some getting used to. However, they are simple to work with and, once dried, their toughness and ability to withstand some pretty nasty stuff is difficult to beat. I determined it was logical for me to explore a water-based workflow. My two weapons of curiosity are General’s Wood Turner’s Finish and General’s Endur-Var water-based urethane.

*What I was looking for…*
My goals were to discover a new finish protocol, understand the nature of the finishes and the steps required for a successful finished product.

_Questions I needed answered:_
1.	Ease of application
2.	Appearance of finish at application, finishing process and final preparation points
3.	Sanding ease and technique
4.	Workability of the finish
5.	Final look of finish
6.	Is the finish a CA replacement?

*Preparation...*
I turned a piece of hard maple to test the two finishes side by side. I parted the respective test areas and labelled each with a red Sharpie; WTF for Wood Turner’s Finish and END for Enduro-Var. The raw wood was sanded to 1000 grit. The wood’s temperature was 68 degrees F. at the time of testing.

Each segment was sealed using General’s water-based Sanding Sealer using 5 coats applied by a Bounty pad allowing each coat to dry to the touch before adding another. Once dried for about an hour, the segments were sanded with 400 grit automotive dry sandpaper.

*The Finish…*
I applied 15 coats of Wood Turner’s Finish to one side because of its thinner viscosity, and 10 coats of Enduro-Var to the other segment due to its higher viscosity. Each coat was applied using an absorbent Bounty paper pad doubled over to the respective sides. 

Each side had finish applied while turning on the lathe at about 1800 RPM. I waited until the finish was dry to the touch before the next coat was applied. The Wood Turner’s Finish routinely dried within 60 seconds of application, while the Enduro-Var sometimes required up to 2 minutes between coats. Once the finish layers were complete, the test piece was removed to a 73-degree house environment for a period of 24 hours to cure.

*Answering the questions…*
*Ease of application *– Both finishes were extremely simple to apply. The WTF dried to a more satin-like finish and generally required less working than the EV. That said; it was also extremely fragile until fully cured, and was far more fragile and more permeable by water than the EV after Curing. Due to its increased viscosity and shininess, the EV proved to be a rougher finish prior to and after cure, but was dramatically more workable than WTF.

*Workability *– Here is where it gets interesting. The WTF is extremely workable due to its relative softness, which can lead easily to over working. In other words, it’s easy to sand completely off, even after curing. The EV, on the other hand, was more difficult to work, but quite workable. Naturally, this is an indicator of how each will hold its final finish – sort of.

*Appearance of finish at various stages of application *– Throughout the application phase, WTF appeared to have more of a satin finish than the EV , which remained clear and highly specular. Cloudiness was never noted in either sample. After the 24-hour curing period, the WTF and EV maintained their prior appearances with no visible cloudiness.

*Sanding testing *– I tested both dry and wet sanding techniques. The WTF readily absorbed water even after curing in my experiments. I recommend dry sanding for the WTF. On the other hand, the EV in uncured and cures states held up well to even aggressive sanding and benefitted from wet sanding more than dry. I recommend wet sanding for EV finishes on pens. All finish sanding started at 1000 grit and ended at 12,000 grit using Micro-Mesh pads.

*How workable was the finish?*– As indicated above, my weapon of choice was Micro-Mesh 1k-12k grits. I finalized the finish using Novus #2 scratch remover. At the end of this process, the WTF had a poor-looking appearance likely unsuitable for most pens. The EV displayed a spectacular finish at this point along with impact resistance clearly superior to WTF. 

*Final look of finish *- As a final finish, each piece was buffed on a Beall buffing system with fine and ultra-fine compounds acquired from Caswell. This brought the ETF to life - or at least back from the dead. While noticeably thinner than the EV, the WTF exhibited a beautiful finish what would likely benefit from Carnauba wax or other surface protectant. When the EV was buffed, the buffing tended to flatten the finish surface and polish it to a higher higher sheen. The end result was a more “plasticy” finish appearance virtually indistinguishable from CA.

*Are these finishes CA replacements? *- Yes and no. The WTF, when buffed, displays a very nice finish although I question its ultimate durability over time. The EV finish is spectacular and certainly one to consider for a CA replacement.

*Final observations…*
The General Finishes products are both excellent, each having its own benefits and constraints when it comes to pen construction. When compared to traditional CA approaches, the General water-based finishes do require greater drying time, but the overall working time of each is so similar they are indistinguishable. While I cannot recommend WTF without further testing due to its lack of robustness in my tests, General’s Enduro-Var water-based urethane is a clear winner for pen makers and more than worthy of your consideration for a viable CA replacement in your finishing workflow.


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## magpens (Feb 3, 2015)

Thanks for this review.  There are, however, a coupla typos you might like to correct, most notably on the third picture ... don't you mean WTP (lower -*left*) ?


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## Shibumik (Feb 4, 2015)

*You're right!*

Sorry about that. Yes, you are correct! Thanks for pointing that one out, Mal.

Kevin


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## Wildman (Feb 4, 2015)

No ten woodturners follow exact same finishing procedures. Do have few problems with your comparison & procedures. 

If want same plastic look of a CA finish, Enduro will give you that without pesky fumes. At one time GF provided 2 oz. bottles of Enduro to pen turners.  

If want a more natural wood look try WTF.  You are comparing apples to oranges. A comparison/test between WTF and Craft coat would prove more meaningful.  Also with or without sealer! 

Not sure where to find Ed's video using this product and talked about wait time between coats.  Instructions say for friction finish wait 30 to 45 seconds between coats.

Exotic Blanks :: Tools, Glues & Finishing :: Finishing Supplies :: Craft Coat Finish - 6 oz Size
http://www.ecoadvanceproducts.com/images/MSDS/Craft-Coat-Application.pdf

There is a difference between sanding sealer & sealers or wood conditioners.  Knowing the difference and when to or not to use can save you time and money when staining & finishing.  My way of saying could easily skip the sealer on a woods like Maple but consider using it on wood like Poplar.

Depending upon GF sealer used one recommends on one coat, other recommends no more than one or two coats. Wait 30 minutes to two hours before sanding & apply top after sanding. Enduro, wait two hours before sanding and recoating and no more than two to four coats.  

Point like to make is more coats do not equal durability of a finishing product if previous coat(s) not dry.  Each additional coat increases actual curing time.  Fully cured time always much longer than dry to the touch, recoat time, and use time.  

Another point Urethane, Polyurethane and Varathane although each finish has different chemical properties and pros & cons you must sand between coats in order for the next coat to adhere to previous coat.  That is not true for Shellac or Lacqure.


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## Shibumik (Feb 4, 2015)

*Just for Testing*

Wildman, I agree with you regarding the differences between application techniques among individuals. This experiment, however, was designed to explore the capabilities and characteristics of each finish material in comparison to CA in a relatively controlled environment and to see if they were replacement candidates for the CA workflow, as opposed to a definitive pen finishing protocol per se.

Based on the results of this experiment, I stand by my assertion that General's WTF is likely not a durable finish for pens over the long term, and therefore not a replacement for CA. In my experiment, WTF absorbed water after cure. I suspect this is a tradeoff for designed-in faster drying times. Your mileage may vary, of course.

As far as the Enduro Var is concerned, there are many benefits like wonderful durability and workability in addition to mitigating the nasty fumes as you correctly stated. I have never experimented with Craft Coat, but will likely play with it in the future; it does sound interesting. I used the sealer only to keep water-based grain lift considerations out of the performance evaluation of the finishes themselves and to provide a barrier coat for experimentation. That being said, I did like the results sanding sealer provided.

The number of coats were due to the thin mil application and material viscosity I used for the experiment. Once again, your mileage may vary depending on technique.

Other than these points, I agree with your assertions. There are many variables with application techniques, including processes like immersion I have seen illustrated here. In short, everything matters when it comes to finishing. When you consider finishing is one area most are uncomfortable with, materials and techniques matter most. While far from an exact science, water-based finishing is something that's here to stay and I suspect will be adopted by more pen makers in the future as more is learned. However, not all materials are created equally, which is clearly the case with WTF and EV based on my analysis.

Kevin


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## KenV (Feb 4, 2015)

Thanks for the careful process comparison.   Back about 5 + years ago there was an advocate of using Enduro - especially with a dip method -- by Wayne Swindlehurst.   Pen Makers Guild Articles Page and scroll down a bit.   Have not heard from Wayne for a long time and he was having medical issues then so suspect he is turning pens on a different plane.    

Your application technique seems to be getting similar results.

My less structured  outcome observations tend to follow your experience.   I have been tending to use WTF as a first coat/sealer because of the ease of use, and tend to use other finishes after that.   I have Enduro but not the sealer and continue to use it to good effect.  

Again thanks for stepping into the finishing mud puddle --


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## Band Saw Box (Feb 4, 2015)

I've been using WTF for about a year now and I'm very pleased with the results I get ( I had many people here ask if I had used CA) I think it hold up very well. When I sand my blanks after I have applied 5 coats I only use 3600 mm. My WTF method does take  bit of time maybe 30 minutes for 20 coats I feel it time we'll spent.


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## Shibumik (Feb 4, 2015)

*WTF...*

Hi Dan, thanks for yours and all other responses to this post! 

Because of its delicacy, I can see why 3600+ sandpaper is essential to WTF finishing and my technique certainly is not appropriate as a finishing protocol based on my results. Are you using a sealer? What is your WTF application method? Do you wet or dry sand? Have you ever noticed water absorption in your pens after curing? Are you waxing or finishing in a special way? (without giving away trade secrets anyway!) 

While I loved the ease WTF was worked with, I agree a delicate touch is an essential component of every WTF strategy. I just found the performance problematic in my particular scenario an would enjoy hearing alternative approaches that might mitigate some of my experiences - and I suspect the experiences of others trying to decide the "perfect" finish as well. 

Kevin


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## Wildman (Feb 4, 2015)

Think a comparison between Craft Coat & WTF already posted here, just cannot remember the poster or his preference.  I can make lacquer, shellac, and other film finishes look better than CA, but my picture taking skills fail to demonstrate my finishing skills.  I can also make CA look less plastic looking without sacrificing durability, but stopped using CA years ago.

Have a lot of experience finishing & refinishing your definition of cure time lhas me LOL.  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wuqu66GKrE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmqGiHTS3w8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=keG6jpexRqk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhsR9XpES-8

At one time Enduro was considered here by many the best finish for pens! Cannot tell you when CA became a better finish to people here. JHMO, only advantage CA has over other finishes is ease and speed.


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## Band Saw Box (Feb 4, 2015)

Kevin, I don't use sanding sealer, I dry sand starting at 150 grit and finish with 12000 mm. I have not noticed any water absorption. If I wasn't to bring out a higher shine I let the blank cure for 24 hours and polish with 6000 to 12000 mm. If you have any other questions please ask.


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## CoastalRyan (Feb 4, 2015)

I use WTF 90% of the time. I do agree that in moderation its more of a flat or hand rubbed type of finish. 

You can acheive the CA look but it requires upwards of 20+ coats and needs a minimum of 5 days cure time before buffing. Those 5 days of cure time will give you the hardness you're looking for.

I've never tried Enduro-Var but it sounds promising. Will definitely try it out based on your testing. Anyone selling it in smaller easier to use dispensers like WTF? Thanks.


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## conandy (Feb 19, 2015)

*1st time pen turner...*

Hey, all.  I am in the midst of turning my very first batch of pens, and actually this thread led me to try out a couple different finishes for my first batch to see what I like.  I was convinced I'd really like the Enduro-Var so that is what I am doing 3 pens with.  I decided at the last minute to do a 4th pen with CA finish.  

I was conflicted between the procedures I've seen here where many coats of EV are applied as soon as the previous coat is dry with no sanding, as opposed to following the traditional directions to wait an hour or two between coats and sand in-between.  I wonder about a) ability of the coats to bond to previous coat and b) what that does to the cure time and how long to wait before final sanding/buffing.  I got nervous after 4 coats applied back to back, and decided to let those sit for a few hours before leveling with 1000 grit and adding 4 more coats (very thin coats).  I plan to final sand/buff those tomorrow.  Doing this with 3 pens in process meant a lot of removing pens from the lathe and letting them sit while I worked on the next pen.  That actually works OK in a production setting where there is minimal downtime,  but that procedure really kind of bites if you are working on just one pen.

The pen I did with CA turned out amazing and it was very satisfying to complete it as soon as it came off the lathe.  The fumes were a tad annoying, but not too objectionable. I'm sure doing 10 pens in a day, though, would get pretty obnoxious. I noticed the smell lingered all day. 

Philosophically, I like to stick with shellac and water based finishes as much as possible. I tend to shy away from oil-based finishes due to long dry times and obnoxious fumes, and by extension, the CA finish.

So, I guess I am asking for advice on the practicality and effectiveness of essentially putting on "all" of the coats of Enduro-var at once (like the OP did, and like the instructions for WTF say to do).  And, if others have had good experience doing that,  how long before coming back to sand out the finish. 

Thanks for any advice.


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## conandy (Feb 20, 2015)

*follow up*

As a follow up to my previous post.  2 of the 3 pens that I put 8 coats of EV on ended up as fails because the micromesh final sanding went all the way through the finish.  I think maybe this was because I spent too much time leveling it with 1000 grit to leave enough left to buff out.  I think my paper towel application could be improved to have fewer ridges.  Regardless, the build per coat of EV is massively less thick than with medium CA.  

Soooo...those two pens got 6 to 8 coats of Wood Turners Finish, which is curing for a final sanding tonight.  I did not sand between coats.  Before sanding out, these actually look great, quite glossy.  Hope they buff out nicely.  

The one EV finished pen that I did manage to get sanded out OK actually ended up with a very "close to the wood" feel, as opposed to the fully encapsulated with clear plastic look of the CA finish.   I think both looks have their merit, depending upon the ultimate customer. 

I also watched the video for WTF on the GF site, and the demo guy actually does hit the piece with abrasive pad in between each coat of WTF.  I am wondering if folks here actually do that, or if you generally coat without sanding between.  He also buffs it out after only 30 minutes of drying time.  I wonder if experience here thinks that is long enough.  

Trying to find a good solution so I can start cranking out some pens.  

Thanks for any insight!


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## Shibumik (Feb 20, 2015)

*On the Right Tack...*

Conandy,

Like most of us, pen finishing is a process of sorts, albeit one filled with failure at the beginning. I was encouraged by Band Saw Box's success and continued testing based on his positive results with WTF. In my case, I used 25 coats of WTF and followed CoastalRyan's guidance and allowed it to "cure" for a week. The results, after sanding lightly with 3600 grit pads was exceptional and I noticed no water permeation after that point. That being said, the WTF appears to me to be a less robust finish than EV - but I could be wrong over time. In other words, sand carefully! However, if you're patient, the WTF can turn out very nicely as I found out thanks to the advice of others here.

As far as EV, I used 15 coats. I started with 3 coats applied after I felt no drag in the finish on my finger. I then wet-sanded lightly to even everything out using 600 grit and touched up with 100 grit sanding in BOTH directions. Once that was done, I waited 30 minutes and applied the next 12 coats to build the finish. Each layer was added as soon as the previous layer was no longer tacky. In my environment, this was no more than 2 minutes between coats. Your mileage may vary. After the final coat, I set then aside in a warm area for a minimum of 24 hours to dry and set very well. I then came back and finished them like I do acrylics, ending at 12,000 grit and polishing out with Novus.

What I have learned from others here and my own experimentation so far is my first goal is to seal the wood and create a bond between the finish and the wood itself. That means starting clean. Before finishing anything, I wipe the wood with acetone (not DNA) and allow that to evaporate completely before continuing. My second goal is to provide a good base for the finish coats that will follow. I do three coats of EV and sand lightly after the third to accomplish these goals. Finally, I want to create a finish I can process exactly like the acrylics I do. In other words, I want to create an _acrylic-like_ finish I can work with using known and predictable processes. So far, so good. EV is working for me well to this point.

Hope this helps,
Kevin


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## Shibumik (Feb 20, 2015)

*Correction*

That was 600 grit and touched up with *1000* grit.


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