# Not everyone is politically correct!



## Texatdurango (Nov 29, 2008)

In this day and age where people are afraid to say "Merry Christmas", where some offices actually go so far as to pass around memos encouraging the use of the phrase "the holidays" and discouraging using the word Christmas at all.

I got an email yesterday and the title caught my eye.  It was refreshing just seeing the word in print (_other than in a memo banning its use_) that I thought I'd share it....

_*From:* XiaoVera [mailto:vera-lnv@hotmail.com] 
*Sent:* 11/29/2008 1:05 AM
*To:* george
*Subject:* Drill bits-*Christmas* promotion

_

_In order to reciprocate our cooperated and potential customers on the corner of *Christmas* and New Year......_

It's a shame it had to come all the way from China!


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## TellicoTurning (Nov 29, 2008)

I got that email too... if I needed 500 drill bits, I could have gotten a 10 or 15% discount.. 

You're right about the "politically" correct... if you want to be "politically correct" go into politics... 

Merry Christmas George.


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## ed4copies (Nov 29, 2008)

George, I could not agree more!  Not only do we have to be "politically correct", more and more things are falling under "politics" and "religion".

In short, the minority has the ability to muzzle the majority simply by declaring a subject "political".

This is, of course, MUCH easier than developing a well-reasoned logic to defend a person's position.

Yet again, the lazy have made THEIR way the ACCEPTED way,   And we wonder why we are losing competitive edge on the world stage.

MERRY THANKSGIVING ALL!!!


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## LEAP (Nov 29, 2008)

I'm with you guys if someone is offended by my wishing them a Merry Christmas they will have to get over it. Our troops all over the world are defending the rights and freedom of all to celebrate however they want.


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## GouletPens (Nov 29, 2008)

Talk about politically correct...did anyone watch the Macy's T-day parade? I thought I was in PC land....all this stuff about "believing in the inner joy of our community and sharing in the hopes of our future". Our forefathers started this country for everyone to express what they believe, not poo poo what others believe. I say believe whatever you do with conviction, and don't worry at all about what I do!!


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## Skye (Nov 29, 2008)

Yeah, but the Rick Astly thing was too friggin funny. Everyone know the inside joke with that?  One word "Rickroll".


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## cozee (Nov 29, 2008)

Funny thing is, political correctness came about to supposely protect the rights (feelings!!) of some. Funny thing it, it takes the rights of the rest to do so!


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## LostintheWoods (Nov 29, 2008)

I would much rather be RIGHT than POLITICALLY CORRECT!!!!


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## jack barnes (Nov 29, 2008)

I'd like to be the first person to wish everyone Merry Chirstmas and Happy New Year. 
How is that for being politically correct.
God Bless each and everyone here

Jack


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## papaturner (Nov 29, 2008)

I rather enjoy questioning those that wish me happy holidays.......I just won`t let it go until they tell me exactly what Holiday they are referring to.
By the way Merry Christmas to all!


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## leehljp (Nov 29, 2008)

It is ashamed that the country that introduced and brought democracy to the modern world has basically gone PC, squelching the freedoms that democracy brings.

There is a "introduction for teachers" guide circulating on Thanksgiving that totally distorts, twists the real historical Thanksgiving in order to diminish its meaning. PC thrusts can be seen all through it. However, many of the "facts" presented are in fact lies and not true. The REAL truth IS out there, if it is seriously wanted! :wink:

Shucks, in some ways, I see more and hear more freedom here in Japan concerning Christmas than in the US (Christmas displays on government property!) 

An early Merry Christmas to all, and hoping you had a great Thanksgiving!


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## marcruby (Nov 29, 2008)

So who is going to be the first person to wish me Happy Hannukah this year?

Marc


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## leehljp (Nov 29, 2008)

marcruby said:


> So who is going to be the first person to wish me Happy Hannukah this year?
> 
> Marc



Happy Hannukah! Happy Hannukah!


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## SuperDave (Nov 29, 2008)

marcruby said:


> So who is going to be the first person to wish me Happy Hannukah this year?
> 
> Marc



Happy Hannukah, Marc!

ברוך אתה ה' א‑לוהינו מלך העולם, אשר קדשנו במצותיו וצונו להדליק נר של יום טוב.‏


... Merry Christmas to the rest of you...

D


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## dullbroadhead (Nov 29, 2008)

Agree with all.


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## SherryD (Nov 29, 2008)

One of our local towns stopped the Christmas parads, now have to call it a holiday parade.  Maybe nest year it will just be called a late in hte year parade, to go with the eary in the year parade and the mid year parade.  They have probably totally banned the Veterans day parade


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## PenPal (Nov 29, 2008)

*Xmas*

Been reading with interest feelings on the festive season. In my church we are given the overbake at a Bakery once a week, this can vary from week to week but the minimum allows me to distribute to a number of people. On one occasion we had a real excess so I doorknocked and met and established a real friendship with thirty Iraq people all related either by blood or marriage. They left everything ,houses businesses etc following the shooting early this year of one man working as a senior management in engineering in the capital of Iraq together with the American manager in their car. They have limited but learning English and are wonderfull people.
So here we have Mormon me and Muslim them, all the woman and girls shake hands with my wife and me and last evening we talked with them about Xmas and we respect Ramadan for them as well.
So I am for absolute respect for respectful folks as well.
In our school system tolerance has become PC etc, sad really.

Enjoy your new President.
Regards Peter


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## TellicoTurning (Nov 29, 2008)

Here in America we have a very bad habit of labeling people.. we have African Americans, Black American, Latino Americans, Mexican Americans, Asian Americans, Native Americans, and on into adnauseam.  

I hate the labels.. many of the so called African Americans roots can be traced back to the beginning of the United States... they haven't been "Africans" for 10+ generations.  And in Texas they refer to the Mexican Americans... there were "Mexican Americans" in Texas long before there was a Texas.. You will find people in Texas with a supposed latin surname that are no more latino than I am.  I have a close friend whose last name is Alvarez... very latin.. he's blond headed, blue eyed and was born in Memphis, TN.  Yet he's classified as a Latin American... totally ridiculous.  
Our new president was born in the state of Hawaii, of a white mother from Kansas (nearly the center of this country), and the closest he will ever be to being an African is the fact that his father was born in Africa, but to me he's only an American whose ancestry happens to be a mix of African and European.   

My ancestry is of Irish, English, German, Scot and American Indian.  My first marriage I married a woman of English and Italian descent, so my son has become an Irish, English, German, Scottish, Italian and Native American American.  How insane can we get.  

Merry Christmas, Happy Hannakah, Happy Kwanza, Happy New Year, and finally Happy any religious holiday I may have missed... or just deal with it.


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## ed4copies (Nov 29, 2008)

Chuck,

Take a prozak, you'll be ok.


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## titan2 (Nov 29, 2008)

cozee said:


> Funny thing is, political correctness came about to supposely protect the rights (feelings!!) of some. Funny thing it, it takes the rights of the rest to do so!


 
There is NO constituational protection for your or anyone else's feelings!  Go ahead and site us chapter and verse so we can all read it.....it's not there!  There are very specific and enumerated rights.....protecting my feelings from being hurt is not there.  Just as there is NO Seperation of 'Church & State'........only states that 'Congress' will make no law pertaining to the 'Establishment of Religion'......(that's an official state sanctioned church that we all must support with tax contributions).  It does NOT forbid the expression of faith in the 'Public Square'.  This country was founded for exactly this very purpose.....the freedom to worship as we please.  You can worship exactly however/whomever or whatever you may please and I respect your right to do that......I on the other hand, also reserve my right to the same!

Wish you all a belated 'Happy Thanksgiving'.........and for an upcoming 'Merry Christmas' and a 'Very Happy New Year'!!!

Hang onto your chairs........it'll be a wild ride from January 20th!!!


:bananen_smilies022: Signing off for now..........Barney


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## leehljp (Nov 29, 2008)

Barney,

I think Cozee was taking aim at what PC is doing, not that it was instituted by Congress or is a law.

Laws are specific and have consequences if not followed or obeyed. It does not deal with "feelings" and there are generally no laws specific to that - except in law suits.

Political correctness on the other hand is a type of "badgering" that tries to tell people that their feelings are horrendous if not in alignment with a minority opinion. PC is used for the purpose of squelching opinions and feelings, and bringing said people into a wanted behavioral alignment from a certain controlling group. PC focuses its work on people where laws (currently?) does not go - their opinions, feelings, and personal philosophies - something once deemed the cornerstone of democracy.


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## GouletPens (Nov 29, 2008)

Skye,

Clearly, no one gets the reference. Not too many Youtubers sending each other Rickrolls I guess....


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## cozee (Nov 30, 2008)

leehljp said:


> Barney,
> 
> I think Cozee was taking aim at what PC is doing, not that it was instituted by Congress or is a law.
> 
> ...




Yep!!!



> There is NO constituational protection for your or anyone else's feelings! Go ahead and site us chapter and verse so we can all read it.....it's not there! There are very specific and enumerated rights.....protecting my feelings from being hurt is not there. Just as there is NO Seperation of 'Church & State'........only states that 'Congress' will make no law pertaining to the 'Establishment of Religion'......(that's an official state sanctioned church that we all must support with tax contributions). It does NOT forbid the expression of faith in the 'Public Square'. This country was founded for exactly this very purpose.....the freedom to worship as we please. You can worship exactly however/whomever or whatever you may please and I respect your right to do that......I on the other hand, also reserve my right to the same!



I fully wholeheartedly agree with what you have said. But as Lee observed in my statement, PCness is eroding the rights we have to worship freely as you have claimed. We have seen prayers in school be removed because of PCness. We Have seen the Ten Commandments removed from public buildings because of PCness. PCness does forbid the expression of faith in public simply because it may offend (hurt their feelings) another who believes differently. And this action of forbidding the freedom to worship is pointed almost solely at Christianity and no other religion. So besides stifling the right of one's freedom to worship, it is done in such a manner to discrimnate and segragate simply because of one faith alone. 


Say it ain't so!!!!:wink::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:


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## jedgerton (Nov 30, 2008)

I agree with the point that being "PC" takes rights away from many to protect the feelings of few.  I also question why someone who observes other holidays would be offended.  If someone wished me a happy whatever, I would appreciate the sentiment.  There is no need to feel threatened by someone's kind wishes.

Merry Christmas to all!

John


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## Daniel (Nov 30, 2008)

I've been watching this thread for a couple of days now, and just trying to come up with a good way to state my thoughts on it. and i finally found a good way to do it.
My general reaction to anyone that would get upset by me or anyone else wishing them a Merry Christmas actually has my heart felt sympathy. It has probably been pretty difficult putting up with themselves all their lives.
Sorry but if you are so hell bent to be miserable, you deserve all of it you can get.
having said that I don't think anyone should get offended by being told have a happy anything.
There are a lot of Muslims where I work. and I have had several pick a prayer location in a room that I needed into. It does not take long to know where they pray and at what times. so you simply do not go into that room during those times. I have other workers that will call the administration and make some big freakin deal about somebody praying while they are trying to work etc. etc. etc. It is called 
"Respect", not agreement, not involvement, not even correct. I think our society could use a big movement in Respect.


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## TellicoTurning (Nov 30, 2008)

Daniel said:


> I've been watching this thread for a couple of days now, and just trying to come up with a good way to state my thoughts on it. and i finally found a good way to do it.
> My general reaction to anyone that would get upset by me or anyone else wishing them a Merry Christmas actually has my heart felt sympathy. It has probably been pretty difficult putting up with themselves all their lives.
> Sorry but if you are so hell bent to be miserable, you deserve all of it you can get.
> having said that I don't think anyone should get offended by being told have a happy anything.
> ...



Well said Daniel,  I think that was what I was trying to say in my little tirade.


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## bitshird (Nov 30, 2008)

I think we can all give a tip of the Ax to the ACLU, for the advent of the buzz term Politically Correct. it's a load of crap. I want to wish you all a Merry Christmas, Feliz Navidad,Y` Prospero Anno Felicidad, as well as Shalom, Gutten Chaunaka und Gut Shabbos.
I'll wish everyone a good Ramadan in February. Y'all can shove PC where the Sun don't shine. JMHO


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## randyrls (Nov 30, 2008)

marcruby said:


> So who is going to be the first person to wish me Happy Hannukah this year?
> 
> Marc




Marc;    Happy Hanukkah!

PS.  I have no problem with someone wishing me a Happy Kwanzaa.  My response is always "And the same to you!"


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## randyrls (Nov 30, 2008)

*MUSINGS*
When I was a Boy Scout, our troop in a Methodist church joined with a fellow troop in a local Catholic church that was closing.

The Scout leaders decided to have the entire troop, in uniform, visit both churches and attend the services.

The Priest met with us before the service and explained the order of service and the meanings behind the symbols.

Our Pastor did the same two weeks later.

To tell the truth, except for a few different words and different emphasis, I found both services to be almost identical.

After we had attended both services, our Scout Master asked us what we thought of the experience.  Everyone enjoyed (appreciated) going and said it gave them a greater appreciation of how similar religions are.  We later went to a local synagogue, and did the same thing, but we had to sit in a separate section.  We asked a Muslim mosque if we could do that, but they declined.


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## Rifleman1776 (Nov 30, 2008)

Blow their minds.
Just wish them "Happy Holy Days".  That's what 'holiday' means.
If that offends someone, they need the Christ-mas greeting.


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## redfishsc (Nov 30, 2008)

bitshird said:


> I think we can all give a tip of the Ax to the ACLU,




Tip of the Ax, my FOOT! I'd like to do things that involve giving them 5-gallon buckets of ex-lax, 80-grit sandpaper, and a Hara-kiri knife..... let your imagination take care of the rest.


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## Russianwolf (Nov 30, 2008)

1) I'm surprised that this thread has lasted this long.

2) can someone explain how PC has taken ANY rights away from anyone?

As I understand it, you can chose to be PC or not. No penalty if you don't. You can use the "N" word all you want. Publicly or privately and legally, no one can stop you. You may loose some respect and friends in many eyes, but they can't stop you. You can pray in school or any government building (Publicly funded schools just can't mandate a prayer time or lead it officially), you can wish someone an "Merry Christmas" and a cop can't write you a ticket for it. You can carry the holy book of your choice around all you want, no one can arrest you for having it anywhere in this country to my knowledge.

Businesses can chose to be PC as to not alienate customers or for other reason. Their choice, not yours. If you don't like their choice, stop doing business with them. Some businesses chose to promote their beliefs/feelings candidly. their choice, not yours. Do or don't do business with them as you want. No one is forcing you to accept anything that you don't want to.

The Government is supposed to represent ALL Americans. In that it is difficult to represent the belief's and feelings of all, I think they came to the conclusion that it's much more simple to represent none. I mean, how can you justify spending tax dollars on Christmas decorations and telling a (insert religion)ish person that you don't have the budget to buy decorations to represent their beliefs in the county square also. Is their religion less important than others? That is what you would be saying to them.

What I find sad is people claiming that something affects them in such a profound way, when the reality is that it has no effect on them except for the  perceived effect in their own mind. 

I have a very open mind, if someone can find any way they their rights have been impeded by PC, please share so that I can understand this better.


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## cdbakkum (Nov 30, 2008)

Merry Christmas everone.  Carl Bakkum-  Mesa, Arizona


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## Skye (Nov 30, 2008)

I guess I can see both sides of the fence.

I mean, if someone walked up to me and said "Happy Samhain!", I don't know how I would respond. I personally don't believe in Samhain, just as someone else may not believe in Christ. So, I guess I can understand where both sides are coming from.

I also think that while I'm personally a "Merry Christmas" person, I'm sure not to use it as an 'in-yo-face-unbeliever!' sort of way. I see a lot of people come out of the woodwork who get all up in arms over the idea of 'the reason for the season' who I rarely see in church or never get upset over anything else regarding religion.

I think one thing to remember is to take anything you hear from stores with a grain of salt. Most of them are to sell as much as they can and to not upset anyone and keep them from buying from them. Not to mention, I really doubt Jesus would be upset that a merchant peddling overpriced crap to people who can't afford it in the first place, even further slandering the season, would really be offended. I think He'd be more offended if the celebration of His birth was affiliated with 3/4 of the things we burden it with.


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## redfishsc (Nov 30, 2008)

Skye said:


> I think He'd be more offended if the celebration of His birth was affiliated with 3/4 of the things we burden it with.





Oh yeah! That's the truth. I think he'd also take an ax to the tree since it's origins are in pagan seasonal ritual anyhow.



Now, I personally don't get offended at the "happy holiday" thing, although I do think it's about as pitifully petty as you can get to _forbid _your employees from saying it. 

But if it's your standard non-Christian saying it, well that's fine with me, since I don't expect them to celebrate the birth of someone they don't worship to begin with. Now, as a Christian it's my honor and duty to give them the chance to follow Christ, but again, it's their choice and if they tell me to shut up talking to them, I can do that too.


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## titan2 (Dec 1, 2008)

Russianwolf said:


> 1) I'm surprised that this thread has lasted this long.
> 
> 2) can someone explain how PC has taken ANY rights away from anyone?
> 
> ...


 

:bananen_smilies022: This can go on forever......no time or desire to go  further......better things and more fun things to do!

Signing off now.......Barney


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## titan2 (Dec 1, 2008)

leehljp said:


> Barney,
> 
> I think Cozee was taking aim at what PC is doing, not that it was instituted by Congress or is a law.
> 
> ...


 

Oh.....It's not lost on me!  I fully understand the concept and the affects of the PC crowd and what happens when being PC is more important and being right/correct on a given subject.  People have a nature and tendency to want to be accepted and fit in and in a PC environment they will more than likely let a lot of things slid.......for the sake to 'Getting Along!'  That can go too far and once you're on that slippery slope....it goes down hill fast!!!!
 
There is a saying......."Evil flourishes where good men do nothing!"  You won't loose your rights "wholesale"........you'll loose them one tiny bit at a time.  As the story goes about the camel wanting to just stick his nose in the tent on a cold night to keep warm........little by little the camel was in the tent and the owner was outside in the cold!
 
:bananen_smilies022: Signing out once again.........
Barney


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## leehljp (Dec 1, 2008)

Russianwolf said:


> 1) I'm surprised that this thread has lasted this long.
> 
> 2) can someone explain how PC has taken ANY rights away from anyone?



Politically correct is the subtle badgering arm of ACLU mentality. No one wants to get sued but it happens when someone in retail doesn't conform to subtle and then overt pressures. No one wants to lose their job but non-PC conformity can cost a person their job - and you can bet the ACLU will fund the lawsuit.

Did you know that you can say GD to the US of A from a pulpit and support a member of said church by name for national elections and that is OK. But if you name a person of another gourp that supports certain belief principles - it is labeled as not PC and lambasted by the press.  And the US government HAS in fact notified major church denominations that in national elections they can support principles but can NOT name a person by name from the pulpit? Why is it OK for one group that pushes PC but not OK for the other?

Did you know that you can own a mom & pop business and if you are open to the public, in some places, you can be sued to hire another worker for at least minimum wage for all of the hours that you are open - to speak another language if you, as the owner are not bilingual? 

Did you know that one member here who worked for the State of  . . asked for diagonal cutters by saying "hand me the dikes" and was given a letter of reprimand by the State?

Did you know that another person, an online friend from another forum - well I will quote him here: "I too came under the gun about that word (dike) and the word "peckerhead". I am a retired electrician and got myself jammed up with the people in the office one day when I told them that the peckerhead was missing on one of the grove pumps. A peckerhead is the termination box cover on the side or end of large electrical motors. Monkey wrench also is taboo as well as some other words and phrases used in the fields. Political correctness, is . . 

Did you know that I was reprimanded by a store owner once for saying "Boy, its hot today!" while standing by a black fellow, a friend. He laughed at the stupidity of the reprimand! I shook my head and left - with my friend.

And you asked - explain how PC has taken ANY rights away from anyone? Can't talk without someone taking offense at innocent words and expressions. 

I am respectful of ethnos and and am well aware of different ethnos and cultures far more than most people would guess. I get to see the insides of cultures that vacationing visitors, and short term workers never see. I don't meet these people on the governmental and commercial interaction level but rather at the point of their basic value system - who they are, who they wish to be. As a counselor too, I see the inside to this.

I do not see in other cultures except Euro/North American doing the PC stifling. Differences are noted in countries outside of those just mentioned without exploiting the differences and there is no insistence on generic commonality for PC purposes. 

I was disappointed of you the bringing of the "N" word into the fold. No one was referring to that, unless I missed something. I grew up on a farm in the middle of the south where my closest white neighbor was about 4 miles away. So my childhood friends were black and they are still my friends. No one else brought this up. Were you trying to equate anti-PC people and prejudice as one and the same? That kind of implicating is wrong! If someone does bring it up, pounce on them! I will. But to suggest that anti-PC and prejudice are the same is plain wrong.

PC - DOES badger people and can causes some to lose jobs.


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## johncrane (Dec 1, 2008)

I'm with you Frank happy days :wink::biggrin:


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## babyblues (Dec 1, 2008)

Like Hank said, political correctness tries to create this generic commonality across the board, but it actually DIVIDES people instead of bringing them together.  Instead of acknowledging that differences exist and learning to live with each other in spite of conflict, we've tried to create an environment where there are no differences and there is no conflict.  SORRY, THAT WORLD DOES NOT EXIST!!!  There is truth but people have to come to a knowledge of it of their own FREE will.  You can't force it.


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## leehljp (Dec 1, 2008)

Back to the original post in this list - Tonight I drove back home by the Toyota City stadium (Toyota City pop: 575,000) and there were 4 Christmas trees that I could see on one side - all lit up. There were some other Christmas scenes there too. Go figure!

Diversity recognized is freedom gained;
Diversity celebrated is strength gained;
Diversity squelched is freedom lost;
Diversity abused is strength lost.


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## marcruby (Dec 1, 2008)

I have to admit that I have yet to know anyone who has been fired, axed, ex-laxed, or stabbed because they were politically incorrect.  I do know of several who got steaming mad when someone stood up to them when they did so.  This is a complicated subject, because few people are consciously prejudiced.  But I think it's better for people to speak up when they feel stepped on for no other reason than the ensuing discussion may raise consciousness a bit.  Keeping silent will never resolve an issue.  That means that if I have to let you say something irritating then you have to let me complain about it.  And if we're both open to discussion maybe a little more light will escape into the world.  If I had to choose between a world where there was social pressure to be polite and one where someone can say silly things that are calculated to offend a group of people I'd pick the former every time.

Marc


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## Russianwolf (Dec 1, 2008)

leehljp said:


> Politically correct is the subtle badgering arm of ACLU mentality. No one wants to get sued but it happens when someone in retail doesn't conform to subtle and then overt pressures. No one wants to lose their job but non-PC conformity can cost a person their job - and you can bet the ACLU will fund the lawsuit.
> I've seen them boycott a company, and put pressure on them. But what legally can they do to force a company to conduct business in a certain way? I don't see any case of that nature being able to make it through the courts. If I own a company, I can make policy. If you as an employee go against that policy, I can fire you. That's legal in most states that I'm aware of. My employment contract say they can fire me at any time with or without cause.
> 
> 
> ...


 Yes, PC can be badgering when people insist on it to extremes, just as religion itself can be badgering when it is pushed towards someone in extremes. It can cost  people their jobs if they dismiss corporate policy in their following or lack of following of it. In government jobs as was pointed out, it cost someone their job because the person in charge thought it had legal backing that is DOES NOT. The person was reinstated.

As I said in my original post, Legally no rights have been taken or impeded by PC. The only thing it can effect is the way you are viewed by other individuals.  

Some companies have also started saying that to remain employed by them, that the person can not smoke. They are doing this due to the increased health insurance costs related to those individuals. Now, this is fully legal and the employee has the simple choice of don't smoke and keep their job with the company, or smoke and leave the job. The government can not make this policy however.


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## Russianwolf (Dec 1, 2008)

titan2 said:


> :bananen_smilies022: This can go on forever......no time or desire to go  further......better things and more fun things to do!
> 
> Signing off now.......Barney



So how does a administrator being stupid and a teacher being reinstated prove that PC impeded rights? You kinda just made my case for me.

I never said that PC couldn't hurt you, only that it can't LEGALLY take or impede your rights.  Heck, if you chose not to be PC, your own mother may be embarrassed by you and not invite you to certain events, but she can't take away your rights because of it.

As far as the Christmas tree. As was already mentioned it's has nothing to do with Christmas in reality. It was borrowed from Pagan religion. Santa Clause also has no origins in the religious holiday of Christmas. But here in the States people don't seem to know how to not equate one with the other. If the person doesn't take down their decorations, what happens? Has anyone pushed this? Tell them to put a Crucifix up in their cubicle and see if they can be forced to take it down.

The Duke Rape Case. You mean the one where the prosecutor that pushed it has been disbarred and can not longer practice law. The one where the boys were invited back to Duke after everything came out? Do you think the administrator was wrong for removing them from campus when they were indicted (regardless that it was by an overzealous prosecutor)? What if they had been left on campus and actually did rape the girl, and raped another while waiting for the trail? Administrators are charged with protecting the student body, I think he did the right thing given the information he had at the time. 

Again, I don't see where anyone has legally had their rights taken away in anything you've mentioned above as a result of PC. Except for that prosecutor that took it too far.


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## Skye (Dec 1, 2008)

Duke rape case? Good grief this thread is really getting off the tracks.


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## titan2 (Dec 1, 2008)

Skye said:


> Duke rape case? Good grief this thread is really getting off the tracks.


 

Just shows you where PC can led you........it is indeed a slippery slope!!!!


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## cozee (Dec 1, 2008)

marcruby said:


> I have to admit that I have yet to know anyone who has been fired, axed, ex-laxed, or stabbed because they were politically incorrect.
> 
> Marc





> I never said that PC couldn't hurt you, only that it can't LEGALLY take or impede your rights.


A few years back a local mechanic asked out loud in the shop he worked in if anyone had seen his dikes, otherwise known as side cutters. A woman who has chosen to live an alternative life style just happened to be in the shop and overheard his reference. She immediately went to his employer and threatened him with a "sexual discrimination" law suit. To avoid the law suit, the mechanic was laid off for an indefinent amount of time. He had to seek employment elsewhere.

Perhaps PC itself did not directly cause this mechanic to lose his job but it sure played a major role in it. PCness is a tool used by those who are seeking to push a certain agenda. Even though PCness itself isn't instituted by law, those who weild it, do so in such a way as to manipulate the law!

And yes, PCness can impede one's rights. Because of PCness, where I work, one must be cautious of what they say. PCness keeps some from expressing themselves as they would freely like to. So much for their right to freedom of speech. PCness keeps some from hanging the calenders they would like. PCness keeps me from even hanging a decoration that says "Merry Christmas" on my tool box or in my office window. Again, there goes freedom of speech/expression. And PCness will scream the loudest if their right to freedom of speech has been impeded or stiffled.


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## cozee (Dec 1, 2008)

titan2 said:


> Just shows you where PC can led you........it is indeed a slippery slope!!!!


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## leehljp (Dec 1, 2008)

Mike,

Technically legally in most cases you are right, but "in reality" most people can't stand up to lawsuits or risk of being firing by their bosses. People who feel slighted by a breach of PCness can often and will get pro bono or ACLU lawsuit support. Win or lose, no money out of their pocket. BUT the worker or mom & pop store owner make juuuust enough money that they can't get a pro bono lawyer and they certainly can't hire a competent lawyer with their own funds. So, in reality they loose their job or conform to PCness.

On the Mom & Pop business - When we were home (stateside) in the early spring or '06, passing in the area of Louisville to Cincinnati, and back down to Lexington, we listened to several local news and one account that made the news on several stations for the day was about a small restaurant in Ohio that put up a sign saying "we only know and speak English here". They were being sued or made to provide an employee who could speak at least bilingually. The report mentioned that the owner said he was barely making ends meet and this would force him to shut down rather than financially comply. Some from Ohio might remember this and enlighten us. As we came back to Japan, I did not hear any more of this. But in reality, law suits such as this, while probably weak and unenforceable can not be defended by many people who cannot get a "pro bono" defense and can't afford anything else. 

The same thing applies to workers who use words like "dike" for side cutters and have been for many many years. Yes they can get fired, and yes they can sue and probably be re-instated, but the reality is that they can't afford that down time and are thus forced to conform.

On my post about government preventing churches from publicly  endorsing specific candidates - I have a request in to my organizations (largest US protestant denomination) Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission for the specifics. However, for a quick clarification here are the basics: Religious organizations are (in the US) tax exempt and donations to them are tax deductible. When public officials are endorsed, the _IRS_ deems it stepping over the bounds of Separation of Church and State. Tax exemption can be lost on this issue. I remember about 8 years ago this happening but a good lawyer and lots of wrangling kept the church tax exempt, IIRC.  Is it a law? - depends on how you define it, but in reality the US government can enforce the separation of Church and State through this issue.

The Link concerning Churches and what can be said from the pulpit is here: http://ivotevalues.com/legals/
and here: http://ivotevalues.com/legals/church


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## sbell111 (Dec 3, 2008)

Good grief.  Let it go.

Happy Holidays to all.


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## marcruby (Dec 3, 2008)

Oh the heck with it.  This is a discussion fated to make enemies out of people.  I'd rather be PC and respect everyone's right to have an opinion.  That way I can use this board without they being political overtones to whatever I happen to be saying.

Marc


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## cozee (Dec 3, 2008)

marcruby said:


> Oh the heck with it.  This is a discussion fated to make enemies out of people.  I'd rather be PC and respect everyone's right to have an opinion.  That way I can use this board without they being political overtones to whatever I happen to be saying.
> 
> Marc



Uh, one doesn't have to be PC to respect one's right to have an opinion!!!! :biggrin:

In fact, as it can clearly be seen, those who are not PC seem to be doing far more of the respecting in this ol' world!!!!!:angel::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:


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## titan2 (Dec 3, 2008)

cozee said:


> Uh, one doesn't have to be PC to respect one's right to have an opinion!!!! :biggrin:
> 
> In fact, as it can clearly be seen, those who are not PC seem to be doing far more of the respecting in this ol' world!!!!!:angel::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:


 
Amen.......brother!!!!:bananen_smilies022:


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## leehljp (Dec 3, 2008)

I am at a total loss about one particular thing - those who want to see this thread let go - keep coming back, reading and commenting that they just want to see it stopped. 

We have three groups here: 
1. those that like PCness
2. those that don't like PCness
3. those who don't like discussions on subjects in which they don't like either side.

In my experience, 1 & 2 can come to a mutual "agree to disagree," But, number 3 is the one to cause the greatest harm because they wish to squelch freedom from all sides! PeaceMAKERS dialog. PeaceKEEPERS squelch.

Shucks, when a thread comes up on the number of threads in a tap and die set or a lacquer finish which I don't use - I don't keep going back a reading and reading and reading. I let it go for "myself", not badgering others to quit!

Reminds me of the post back in the summer of a newly purchased handgun. Some didn't like it and kept coming back to it anyway. Are we that much of a control freak that we have to come back and complain about both sides? I don't read every single post and no one else has to either.


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## marcruby (Dec 3, 2008)

leehljp said:


> But, number 3 is the one to cause the greatest harm because they wish to squelch freedom from all sides! PeaceMAKERS dialog. PeaceKEEPERS squelch.



So you want people to disagree with you the way you want them to or go away?    So much for diversity.  I think you just made my point for me.

Let me make it another way.  There is no such thing as PC.  It's a term invented by the conservative movement so they could have something to blame what they felt was any erosion of their rights, or any action that meant that really different opinions had to be shown respect.  Most of the nonPC claims I've heard quickly dissolve into urban legends on close examination.  Diversity does exist however, but giving people who already have most of the say more of the say isn't it.

Marc


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## leehljp (Dec 3, 2008)

marcruby said:


> So you want people to disagree with you the way you want them to or go away?    So much for diversity.  I think you just made my point for me.
> 
> Marc



Marc,

Didn't make your point at all - You are mixing apples and oranges. You are moving from "a disagreement" in a discussion on PCness to suggesting I am moving to a dictator process. You can't have disagreements when you are not allowed to discuss. Freedom welcomes discourse, Strength will come to Freedom when discourse is allowed - even freedom to say that one is tired of it and they wish it would stop. BUT the ACT of actually squelching dialog becomes the cornerstone of autocratic, undemocratic, totalitarian, authoritarian, . . . 

In other words:
The constant "wanting a discussion to stop" by a third party - of two other parties is a "right" of free speech for sure. But when that _becomes enforced_ then the focus changes from "a disagreement dialog" to dictatorship by the third party. The third party isn't required to read this post at all. They can comment as a right, but the attitude of squelching has as its 'core intent' the prohibition of your and my discourse. I say you have that freedom and I do too, and the third party does too but the third party's wishes is basically a ideology of squelching.

I support your right to speak out your beliefs even if I disagree with it. I just don't think third party people realize their squelching ideology is best handled by them not coming to this thread. I am FOR speaking out - right or wrong, but "squelching ideologically" is mutually exclusive to both parties.

I know this is not the US of A and is IAP. I think Jeff has all right to close it and I, along with probably you and others would not mind it. However, as a Freedom issue, I don't think many people realize the squelching of freedom of speech is the cornerstone of democracy lost. It is not about one side trying to ban another, it is a LACK of understanding what Freedom IS and its core principles. 

It is not about who gets their way, but the continued right to speak - versus the prohibition of speaking. The US of A was established to allow the freedom of speech, not the squelching of speech. People don't know what they are doing when they say they wish a post would be stopped or slam it for flogging a dead horse. The killing for Democracy begins here because it begins with an attitude in individuals.


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## flyingmelon (Dec 3, 2008)

*WOW*

Work a couple extra shifts, take a vacation to see the family, work a couple extra shifts and miss the longest debate I have seen on this list since I joined. 

To those that celebrate Christmas. Merry Christmas. To those that don't. Merry christmas. Please send your greeting on to another and if they don't understand what you are saying please educate them in your seasonal greeting. I think the only way for everyone to get along is to try and teach and learn what you are a believer in. Most people and most religions follow the do onto other rule in some form. All we have to do is figure out the form.

Hope everyone has a great pen giving season.
Russ


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## marcruby (Dec 4, 2008)

You're being extremely unclear.  I'm not accusing you of anything except misusing the terms PC and diversity.  And I find the athletic intensity of your comments in response alarming.  The idea that there is some creeping PC plot to disenfranchise the rights of... well, who exactly?  I don't get it.  My rights certainly aren't being eroded that way.  I can stand proudly in more places now than I ever could in the years right after I was born.  I've been beaten up for being Jewish -- I hope you've never had a similar experience.

The first amendment, after all, doesn't guarantee freedom of expression, it guarantees that Congress won't pass a law limiting freedom of expression.  And this is often applied in turn to the states.  The irony is that there are any number of laws limiting what freedom of speech means, but most of them aren't about being PC, they are about responsible citizenship.  So you are never exempt from the results of whatever you might say, and you may very well feel that the quid pro quo is a limitation on your rights.  It isn't, though, it's justice.

However, I see no signs that Democracy is under attack just because people have to think twice before they dump their religious or political attitudes on anyone and everyone.  What's happening is that achingly slowly this country is opening up to groups other than the mainstream.  We are going through the growing pains of becoming a truly diverse society.  Democracy is growing, not shrinking, despite every effort of the current administration.  That's both frightening and exciting, but we need to embrace the change, since it will either happen with us or without us.

PS - I don't think conservatives are 'moving toward a dictator process.'  But I don't think liberals are 'squelching dialog' either.

Marc



leehljp said:


> Marc,
> 
> Didn't make your point at all - You are mixing apples and oranges. You are moving from "a disagreement" in a discussion on PCness to suggesting I am moving to a dictator process. You can't have disagreements when you are not allowed to discuss. Freedom welcomes discourse, Strength will come to Freedom when discourse is allowed - even freedom to say that one is tired of it and they wish it would stop. BUT the ACT of actually squelching dialog becomes the cornerstone of autocratic, undemocratic, totalitarian, authoritarian, . . .


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## leehljp (Dec 4, 2008)

Ughh, the English language sure is hard to understand sometimes!  :biggrin: :biggrin:

OK, so we didn't have the same "English" teacher, (or philosophy teacher)  . . :biggrin:

Marc,
You do great work and I enjoy your input on this forum's purpose! We CAN agree on this.  If you look back, you will see I was the first one to wish you a Happy Hannukah!

Happy Hannukah to you and Merry Christmas to all!


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## Blind_Squirrel (Dec 4, 2008)

marcruby said:


> I have to admit that I have yet to know anyone who has been fired, axed, ex-laxed, or stabbed because they were politically incorrect.



Two high-profile examples:

- Bill Maher for being politically incorrect on his ABC show "Politically Incorrect" (Can you say "irony"?)

- Don Imus after he called members of the Rutgers team "nappy-headed hos"


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## babyblues (Dec 4, 2008)

marcruby said:


> So you want people to disagree with you the way you want them to or go away?    So much for diversity.  I think you just made my point for me.
> 
> Let me make it another way.  There is no such thing as PC.  It's a term invented by the conservative movement so they could have something to blame what they felt was any erosion of their rights, or any action that meant that really different opinions had to be shown respect.  Most of the nonPC claims I've heard quickly dissolve into urban legends on close examination.  Diversity does exist however, but giving people who already have most of the say more of the say isn't it.
> 
> Marc


Let's just clarify here...the term 'politically correct' actually has been credited to Mao Tse Tung.  IT COMES FROM COMMUNISM.  True, in the 1990s the political right used it to try to discredit the left, but it certainly wasn't invented by the 'conservative movement'.  What's more, there are those who propose that if you can change the way people speak, than you can change the way they think.  So, political correctness is NOT just a way to preserve anyone's rights, but to CONTROL.  Mao Tse Tung was a master of control, so let's just keep that in mind here.

What I find interesting is how we seem to hear 'politically correct' and 'diversity' in the same argument.  That doesn't do much to make me take the argument seriously because those two concepts just don't mix.  PCness tries to strip away our differences and make us all the same.  How can we 'celebrate diversity' unless we are willing to accept that there are differences and learn to get along inspite of them?  Take offense when neccessary, but don't look to take offense.  We can take offense to just about anything, but that rarely means that the object of our offense is in deed offensive.  There is a difference.

Oh, and free speech doesn't mean that we have the right to just say whatever we want.  Slander and libel laws prove that.  Also, try standing up in a crowded restaurant and shouting "Fire!" when there is no fire and see where that gets you.


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## marcruby (Dec 4, 2008)

Oh piffle.  If it's necessary to resort to red-baiting this argument has dissolved into fantasy.  It's impossible to have a discussion with someone who believes there is a vast liberal conspiracy to control the minds of conservatives.  For what reason, I can't imagine.  Some in the right have simply seized on the term as a straw man to have a shibboleth to point at.  Despite the fact that its impossible to find a party, movement, or organization with 'political correctness' as one of its goals.

The irony of this is that the nonPC argument is often being used in an attempt to limit discussion and control what people say or think in much the same manner as PCness is accused of.  In an interesting reversal, antiPCness and PCness have switched roles.  'Happy Holidays' is hardly anti-Christian any more than 'Merry Xmas' is anti-semitic.  I don't find either term the least bit offensive.  I can conceive of situations where the former might be less appreciated, but most people understand the sentiment and accept it on face value.

Oh, and thank you for re-affirming what I said about freedom of speech.

Marc



babyblues said:


> Let's just clarify here...the term 'politically correct' actually has been credited to Mao Tse Tung.  IT COMES FROM COMMUNISM.  True, in the 1990s the political right used it to try to discredit the left, but it certainly wasn't invented by the 'conservative movement'.  What's more, there are those who propose that if you can change the way people speak, than you can change the way they think.  So, political correctness is NOT just a way to preserve anyone's rights, but to CONTROL.  Mao Tse Tung was a master of control, so let's just keep that in mind here.
> 
> What I find interesting is how we seem to hear 'politically correct' and 'diversity' in the same argument.  That doesn't do much to make me take the argument seriously because those two concepts just don't mix.  PCness tries to strip away our differences and make us all the same.  How can we 'celebrate diversity' unless we are willing to accept that there are differences and learn to get along inspite of them?  Take offense when neccessary, but don't look to take offense.  We can take offense to just about anything, but that rarely means that the object of our offense is in deed offensive.  There is a difference.
> 
> Oh, and free speech doesn't mean that we have the right to just say whatever we want.  Slander and libel laws prove that.  Also, try standing up in a crowded restaurant and shouting "Fire!" when there is no fire and see where that gets you.


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## Russianwolf (Dec 4, 2008)

babyblues said:


> Let's just clarify here...the term 'politically correct' actually has been credited to Mao Tse Tung.  IT COMES FROM COMMUNISM. No, it comes from a dictator, not Communism. Communism is a socio-econonic system where people work for the good of the group (The Amish are an example of a communist society that no one even blinks an eye at, as long as you aren't stuck behind them on the road). But that's another lesson.
> 
> What I find interesting is how we seem to hear 'politically correct' and 'diversity' in the same argument.  That doesn't do much to make me take the argument seriously because those two concepts just don't mix. I don't understand this. Midget is a non-PC term, but Dwarf is PC (as the condition is called Dwarfism). How does Dwarf not point out the differences between "Normal" people and someone with Dwarfism? Or African-American as opposed to Black, Or Asian as opposed to Oriental (which I still don't understand why that term is non-PC, but according to my Asian wife it is).
> 
> Oh, and free speech doesn't mean that we have the right to just say whatever we want.  Slander and libel laws prove that.  Also, try standing up in a crowded restaurant and shouting "Fire!" when there is no fire and see where that gets you.


 On this last part we agree.


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