# What is the deal with Fountain Pens



## John Eldeen (Aug 3, 2019)

So, as I continue in my journey making fine writing implements, I felt it was time to make a fountain pen. Just to be clear I have no experience with making or even using a fountain pen. Nevertheless, I ordered a Vertex Supreme Fountain Pens kit being familiar with the kit as I already have made several in the rollerball versions. Everything went great on the build and upon testing it wrote okay little scratchy but okay another success or so I thought. I posted the pen up in my Etsy shop and moved on to the next project. As luck would have it in this case a couple of months later my wife and I tried are hand at a craft show. When doing are setup it came to are attention the that fountain pen had expelled all the contents of the refill into the cap. As one might imagine there may have been a few choice words expressed. After the show and everything else was taken care of, I came here to IAP for answers on what when wrong. So far after scouring through hundreds (maybe not that many) of threads and following links to different articles and videos I have learned a lot. My concern now is the upkeep of the completed pen such as the storage and maintenance. Maybe I have armed myself with too much information on the downside and not enough of the upside.
This is what brings me to the real question. As a maker that sells my work what is the allure of the Fountain Pen. At this point it really appears that the finicky nature of the fountain pen would be setting myself up for a potentially unhappy consumer. Quite possibly tarnishing the reputation I am trying to build.

Thank You in advance for your insights and information,
John


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## jttheclockman (Aug 3, 2019)

Well John have to say you hit on a subject that I have little knowledge not from trying but from some of the points you bring out. I can tell you fountain pen users and buyers are finnicky and picky. They are a rare bread in that they know what they like and they pretty much know what to look for. They are usually the collectors of this hobby sort of speak. When you hear of people collecting pens it mostly fountain pens. I never got into making them for fear of I have no idea what I am talking about when asked questions. I try not put myself in this position at any time. You do need to know what you are doing and know the product you are selling. The technical ends of selling a fountain pen are far greater than selling ball point or rollerball pens. Need to know how to tune a fountain pen, what the different feed types are and why each is used, the different inks used, and so on and on. 

I am sure there will be someone here who can answer your question but they probably will need to know the feed system used on this pen in question and how it was stored. Good luck down this path.


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## TonyL (Aug 3, 2019)

Hi. FPs are wonderful IMO...I even use then for work,. I love the style and magnetic cap of the vertex supreme. My only struggle with the VS is the nib. Mine have been very scratchy despite all of the tuning, light sanding, etc.. I brought it to two professionals at the Atlanta Pen Show - without success or the ability to find a replacement nib - so in its pouch it sits until I find a solution because I do love the pen.  As far as an answer to your question, I do not sell the because of the possibility of what you presented. I do find the higher end Jr Gents to have an excellent nib - even the Citizen and Harold . However, there are many turners here and elsewhere that I am sure sell many FPs of all qualities with little trouble.  Much success regardless
 of your decision.


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## philipff (Aug 3, 2019)

I have to ask: has anyone tried to replace the factory nib with one from Goulet Pens, or some other vendor?  The other option is to find a top-notch FP craftsman who would find out and fix the problem.


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## John Eldeen (Aug 3, 2019)

jttheclockman said:


> Well John have to say you hit on a subject that I have little knowledge not from trying but from some of the points you bring out. I can tell you fountain pen users and buyers are finnicky and picky. They are a rare bread in that they know what they like and they pretty much know what to look for. They are usually the collectors of this hobby sort of speak. When you hear of people collecting pens it mostly fountain pens. I never got into making them for fear of I have no idea what I am talking about when asked questions. I try not put myself in this position at any time. You do need to know what you are doing and know the product you are selling. The technical ends of selling a fountain pen are far greater than selling ball point or rollerball pens. Need to know how to tune a fountain pen, what the different feed types are and why each is used, the different inks used, and so on and on.
> 
> I am sure there will be someone here who can answer your question but they probably will need to know the feed system used on this pen in question and how it was stored. Good luck down this path.





TonyL said:


> Hi. FPs are wonderful IMO...I even use then for work,. I love the style and magnetic cap of the vertex supreme. My only struggle with the VS is the nib. Mine have been very scratchy despite all of the tuning, light sanding, etc.. I brought it to two professionals at the Atlanta Pen Show - without success or the ability to find a replacement nib - so in its pouch it sits until I find a solution because I do love the pen.  As far as an answer to your question, I do not sell the because of the possibility of what you presented. I do find the higher end Jr Gents to have an excellent nib - even the Citizen and Harold . However, there are many turners here and elsewhere that I am sure sell many FPs of all qualities with little trouble.  Much success regardlessView attachment 223336 of your decision.





philipff said:


> I have to ask: has anyone tried to replace the factory nib with one from Goulet Pens, or some other vendor?  The other option is to find a top-notch FP craftsman who would find out and fix the problem.


Thank you all for your comments but to be clear with my question I am not concerned with the particular kit issues as much as the fountain pen issues as a whole. I am not sure if I have researched the problems so much that all I can see is problems. Or am I over complicating the whole thing.


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## jttheclockman (Aug 3, 2019)

John Eldeen said:


> Thank you all for your comments but to be clear with my question I am not concerned with the particular kit issues as much as the fountain pen issues as a whole. I am not sure if I have researched the problems so much that all I can see is problems. Or am I over complicating the whole thing.



Again

I am sure there will be someone here who can answer your question but they probably will need to know the feed system used on this pen in question and how it was stored. Good luck down this path.


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## monophoto (Aug 3, 2019)

John Eldeen said:


> This is what brings me to the real question. As a maker that sells my work what is the allure of the Fountain Pen. At this point it really appears that the finicky nature of the fountain pen would be setting myself up for a potentially unhappy consumer. Quite possibly tarnishing the reputation I am trying to build.



I've been using fountain pens for probably 40-50 years, so let me take a shot at answering the question.

Fountain pen users like the experience of writing with a pen that glides smoothly over the paper, and requires little or no physical pressure to make a mark.  They like the sharpness and clarity that a fountain pen can create, the choice of nibs (both width and feel), as well as the enormously broad choice of inks.  And I for one like the elegance of a fountain pen - there are so many things in the modern world that are designed for ultimate convenience and speed, while a fountain pen is naturally inconvenient, takes time to master and maintain, and sometimes is messy - but that's OK because the elegance factor more that compensates. 

Fountain pen users understand that they are sometimes messy, and that occasionally nibs need to be 'tuned' by a specialist 'nibmeister'.  That's all part of the experience of using fountain pens.  For example, I have a collection of inks that I use in my EDC pens, and I keep a pair of nitrile gloves with the inks because I know that if I don't use the gloves, I'm likely going to wear ink for a day or so.  And I have an ear syringe that I use for flushing pens, a blunt syringe that I use to refill cartridges, and  even a supply of brass shim material that is used to 'floss' pen nibs.

I have turned a number of fountain pens (although I don't turn many pens today), and I have a few pens that I have turned or that were purchased from other turners that are part of my EDC rotation, and I have to say that most kit fountain pens are mediocre at best.  I enjoy my wooden fountain pens as much for the beauty of the wood as I do for their elegance and utility as fountain pens, but I have a number of commercial pens that are simply better pens.

I think you need to separate pen users from pen collectors - fountain pen collectors usually specialize in vintage fountain pens, and often they don't actually write with their collectible pens.  They are probably not potential customers for fountain pen turners.  And they may not actually use any of their pens.   They simply collect pens - just like people collect baseball cards, match boxes, or teaspoons. 

I think that there are actually two kinds of pen users.  There are those (like me)  who are more into the writing experience, and will purchase everything from bespoke kitless pens, kit pens, cheap Chinese pens - - - and often will have 6-8 that are inked at any one time that they rotate for daily carry.  Pen users are also often into journaling, and are as equally fanatic about the paper they choose to write on.  But there are also users for whom a fountain pen is mainly a status symbol - they have one or two expensive pens that are mainly intended for show - either when creating a bold signature, or else showing the pen manufacturer's logo in their shirt pocket.


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## leehljp (Aug 3, 2019)

I made my first fountain pen back in 2006 for my youngest daughter's wedding. I made a pen stand so the people could register at the wedding.
Click the link and look:








						Imported Photo from leehljp
					

Imported Photo from leehljp. Please edit title and description.



					www.penturners.org
				




That was before I had a good camera to take good pictures. When I posted that picture, I got some great advice from several people - Do not stand the fountain pens with the nib end down. That is OK for ball point and some roller ball pens, but not fountain pens. I took that to heart.

Second part - notice how I had the thinking of the roller ball and fountain pen as similar. Well, in the fountain pen world, they are not. That is also the reason that fountain pens will sell 2x on the lower end and 10x on the high end than ball point/roller ball. Fountain Pen aficionados or enthusiasts are a different breed and treat their pens with a different kind of respect than do ball point/roller ball buyers.


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## John Eldeen (Aug 3, 2019)

monophoto said:


> I've been using fountain pens for probably 40-50 years, so let me take a shot at answering the question.
> 
> Fountain pen users like the experience of writing with a pen that glides smoothly over the paper, and requires little or no physical pressure to make a mark.  They like the sharpness and clarity that a fountain pen can create, the choice of nibs (both width and feel), as well as the enormously broad choice of inks.  And I for one like the elegance of a fountain pen - there are so many things in the modern world that are designed for ultimate convenience and speed, while a fountain pen is naturally inconvenient, takes time to master and maintain, and sometimes is messy - but that's OK because the elegance factor more that compensates.
> 
> ...


Louie thank you for you very insightful comments this is the exact kind of information I am looking for. I will definitely take your insight into consideration as I continue my journey. 
Thanks again John


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## John Eldeen (Aug 3, 2019)

leehljp said:


> I made my first fountain pen back in 2006 for my youngest daughter's wedding. I made a pen stand so the people could register at the wedding.
> Click the link and look:
> 
> 
> ...


As I researched the fountain pens tuning, care, and maintenance I noticed that most of the end users where definitely a different user than most. That group definitely was aware of the pros and cons but, the group that was looking for status or just thought it looked cool was the group that truly gave me concern as a seller.


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## edman2 (Aug 3, 2019)

Just one thought...I never ink my fountain pens before they are sold.  If a potential customer wants to write with it I dip the nib in a bottle of ink and let them try it. After they leave (if they do not buy it) I immediately wash the ink from the feed and nib.  Cuts down on the mess and keeps people from playing with the pen.


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## John Eldeen (Aug 3, 2019)

edman2 said:


> Just one thought...I never ink my fountain pens before they are sold.  If a potential customer wants to write with it I dip the nib in a bottle of ink and let them try it. After they leave (if they do not buy it) I immediately wash the ink from the feed and nib.  Cuts down on the mess and keeps people from playing with the pen.


Thanks for the tip that would probably be one of my frirst questions if I decide to go forward with making fountain pens. I would also make the assumption if you were to ship it you would also do that without ink?


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## Bryguy (Aug 4, 2019)

I have been a fountain pen user since the 1950s. A fountain pen is more than a pen. It is more like a pet and needs the same level of TLC. I started in this pen hobby as a fountain pen collector, then restorer of antique pens and as a result of that experience, a make. A good fountain pen gives the writer much more control over the line width. There is an infinite variety of nibs which give each writer a distinct personality. I prefer a 1.1 stub nib, others like fine or flex nibs. The nibs that come with the lower end kits often aren't worth having. When I sell a fountain pen I always include a letter explaining the feeding and care of the pen. As a fountain pen seller you need to tune the nib before you sell the pen. For more info on this check out Richard Binder's website. You'll learn more about fountain pens than you ever thought possible!


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## DrD (Aug 4, 2019)

I love fountain pens!  Have been collecting them and using them my entire professional life.  In my experience, I found it much easier to attach a higher price to a fountain pen than say a comparable roller ball.

Fountain pens sales tend to be quite different from other types of pen sales.  Frequently the fountain pen buyer will take out a loupe and examine the nib, looking for uniform separation of the tines at the nib, and to ensure one tine is not higher than the other.

So, in successfully selling fountain pens for big bucks, you need to tune the nib - if necessary, many kit nibs come just fine as they are.  This is determined by first checking ink flow - does the pen skip in going from bottom to top as in writing a capital G.  Is it scratchy?  It must write smoothly.  There are numerous videos that show how to do all this.

The next thing is storage.  Typically is not a good idea to store a fountain with ink in it's system.  Remove the converter or cartridge - thoroughly clean the converter or dispose of the cartridge; dis-assemble the nib and feed from the section; thoroughly clean and dry each before re-assembly.

Lastly bring an ink well and quality writing paper with you to where you are selling pens, and if the customer requests charge the pen with a little ink and let them write.  The quality paper goes a long way in translating the pen's smoothness to the writer's hand.  You are now positioned to close the deal on a $100 to $300 writing instrument.   Just my 2 cents.

Don


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## duncsuss (Aug 4, 2019)

DrD said:


> Frequently the fountain pen buyer will take out a loupe and examine the nib, looking for uniform separation of the tines at the nib, and to ensure one tine is not higher than the other.



And this, of course, means that you must buy a loupe and examine it before putting it out for sale. (If you don't, a serious fountain pen buyer might decide to take their business elsewhere without looking at any other pens you may have.)

On Richard Binder's advice, I bought the "Belomo 10x triplet" loupe, available on Amazon or directly from https://belomostore.com/


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## John Eldeen (Aug 4, 2019)

Thank you to everyone for you input!! 
If I am understanding everything correctly, first, the research I have done though it is obviously just the tip of the iceberg is correct. The Fountain pen is finicky and requires some TLC to stay in good working order. Secondly the potential clientele for a well crafted and appropriately tuned fountain pen that is priced accordingly will be mostly aware of it's needs. 
If all of this is correct then my actions should be as follows; First, alot more research and education on my part. Second, build a couple, tune, then use to gain some personal experience with the usage and maintenance. 
Once again Thanks for everyone's input and experience in helping along in my journey. 
John


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## duncsuss (Aug 5, 2019)

Another option: buy a handful of very cheap pens from eBay and practice tuning the nibs on them. These are the ones that Richard Binder give the students in the tuning/smoothing classes he teaches - $1.60 each, including postage - https://www.ebay.com/itm/jinhao-599...c-color-calligraphy-Fountain-Pen/153094975741 (They might not need tuning - he de-tunes them before the class so there's guaranteed some work to do getting them right!)

As I mentioned earlier, you'll also need a 10x loupe. Richard Binder's website, http://www.richardspens.com/ has more information about pens than any sane human being should need - quick link to his "how to ship a fountain pen" - http://www.richardspens.com/ref/care/ship.htm If you do Facebook, Richard posts there as @NashuaPenSpa -

If you find yourself in a city where Richard is teaching his 90 minute tuning/smoothing workshop, I highly recommend it - though they sell out quickly, he usually allows more folks to sit and watch from behind where the participants work. The kit of smoothing weaponry can be bought from the good folks at Indy-Pen-Dance here: www.indy-pen-dance.com/Fountain-Pen-Nib-Smoothing-Kit.html

I'm not sure if Richard makes his class notes freely available. If I find out he does, I'll post a link in a follow up message on this thread.


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## darrin1200 (Aug 5, 2019)

John Eldeen said:


> Thank you to everyone for you input!!
> If I am understanding everything correctly, first, the research I have done though it is obviously just the tip of the iceberg is correct. The Fountain pen is finicky and requires some TLC to stay in good working order. Secondly the potential clientele for a well crafted and appropriately tuned fountain pen that is priced accordingly will be mostly aware of it's needs.
> If all of this is correct then my actions should be as follows; First, alot more research and education on my part. Second, build a couple, tune, then use to gain some personal experience with the usage and maintenance.
> Once again Thanks for everyone's input and experience in helping along in my journey.
> John



 Be careful John. This is how the second rabbit hole opens. I “practiced” with one of my first fountain pens, and now that’s all I use. I have a rotation of about 6 pens. Two of my own build, two vintage and two new.


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## DrD (Aug 5, 2019)

duncsuss is right on.  In my advancing age, I find it useful to use headband 6x magnified (from Lee Valley) with led light + a 20x loupe.  Again, he gives sage advise on buying several cheap pens and using those to enhance your nib tuning prowess.  While I've been doing this for some time, I learned from this forum that a first and sometimes final approach is to use a brown paper bag.  There is enough grit on the surface of the bag to smooth out some minoe, but irritating imperfections in the nib.

Just another source that I found helpful in getting back into the swing of things with tuning is a series of 3 You Tube videos by the Pen Habit (penhabit.com) titled Adjusting your fountain pen Parts 1, 2 & 3..  My biggest takeaway from these was the use of 0.001 thru 0.005 in brass shim stock to get good ink flow.

Although I had been using fountain pens through undergraduate and graduate school, the business impact of a fountain pen was never more clear than the day in New York City when I sold my company to a Foutune 50 company.  At the time of contract signing, EVERYONE pulled out their fountain pens:  some were old Schaffers, there was a beautiful yellow DuoFold, and many Mont Blanc 149s.  Welcome to the joys of building, owning and writing with a fountain pen.


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## monophoto (Aug 5, 2019)

DrD said:


> I learned from this forum that a first and sometimes final approach is to use a brown paper bag.  There is enough grit on the surface of the bag to smooth out some minoe, but irritating imperfections in the nib.



Interesting point - nibmeisters frequently use kraft paper to polish the end of a fountain pen nib.  Just casually draw a series of figure 8 patterns - don't press down hard, just draw casual figure 8's.  That pattern brings almost all of the key surfaces of the pen nib into contact with the kraft paper where the very fine abrasive can polish the metal.  But be careful - there is such a thing as 'too much'.

But a point that I picked up somewhere is that kraft paper can also be used by turners, as a final polish after sanding through the grits to a desired level of shine - the slightly abrasive surface of the kraft paper serves as a final step in that finishing process.[/QUOTE]


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## bmachin (Aug 5, 2019)

I know that I'm probably going to open up a can of worms here, but Richard Binder will tell you that although kraft paper makes a pen write smoother it does so by filling in rough spots with bits of paper, not by removing material from the nib which is an incredibly hard alloy.

Even if you don't buy into this, your easiest route is to buy into this nib smoothing kit From Indy-Pen-Dance that Duncan mentions above.

It's much more efficient and predictable than a paper bag and gives you all the abrasive sizes you need.

FWIW,

Bill


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## DrD (Aug 5, 2019)

I don't take issue with either bmachin or momophoto.  I will say that with at least 2 nibs I have had success with the brown paper bag, and using the magnification that I indicated I use, there was no evidence of any paper inclusions.  Following "sanding" I dis-assemble the nib from the feed and the section, soak the components in at least 91% IPA, usually overnight, air dry and reassemble.  Before the pen is sold, it is once again inked and tested on something like 100% cotton letterpress to ensure there are  no issues.  I've never had a pen come back.

As for the assortment of grits used, Anderson sells a nice package of Micro Mesh, which I use for finishing CA pens.  For tuning I use only true 12000 grit paper I get from the auto parts store.  It takes longer, but you do not risk removing too much metal - which cannot be replaced.


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## seaclanky (Aug 6, 2019)

A word of warning chaps;  fountain pens are addictive.  First you get one for Christmas.  Suddenly you have a dozen, and are actively looking for more.  Then you feel the need to practice your handwriting. Maybe buy some nice writing paper.  However when you try a dip pen or two, that's a different level of crazy. When your EDC includes a bottle of ink and blotting paper you'll  know you're in too deep.  At this stage, one is generally considered beyond redemption.  However, organisations such as IAMPETH can help, and I commend them to your attention.


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