# What do I need for a Kitless pen



## Erik831

Hi guys, I’ve been making pens for a while and I’d like to try a kit-less pen but don’t know what I need as far as material and tools. I’d greatly appreciate if someone could give me the links to where I can buy tools needed for this. Thank you in advance.


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## thewishman

What kind of a pen would you like to make? Ballpoint, rollerball, fountain?


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## ericofpendom

I think if you have a look at the library section you will find lots of info to help you on your way. Maybe take a look at the links section as well.
Eric...


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## Erik831

I’d like to make fountain pens to start.


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## thewishman

Here are three great articles with instructions:

http://content.penturners.org/library/pens/another_way_pen.pdf

http://content.penturners.org/library/pens/fountain_pen_section.pdf

http://content.penturners.org/library/pens/kitless_pen.pdf


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## eharri446

You will read a lot about needing multi start taps and dies to make a kitless pen, and many of us are waiting on our group buy to come in with those special taps and dies.

However, you can use standard taps and dies to make the threads that the cap uses to screw onto the body, as well as the threads on your section and inside the body where the section threads into. 

The only special taps that you will need will be for the nib carrier which hold the nib and ink feeder together and screws into the section. You can get those from https://www.classicnib.com/feeds-and-taps/taps-detail

You can also buy pre-assembled sections from different vendors and some do require a special tap for those as well.

Other than that, the various documents and YouTube videos on making kitless pens will provide the rest of the basic items required.


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## thewishman

eharri446 said:


> You will read a lot about needing multi start taps and dies to make a kitless pen, and many of us are waiting on our group buy to come in with those special taps and dies.
> 
> However, *you can use standard taps and dies to make the threads that the cap uses to screw onto the body, as well as the threads on your section and inside the body where the section threads into. *



You said it.


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## Curly

Not standard as in the taps and dies you have in your tool box for regular nuts and bolts but single start threads, usually metric. Victor Machinery has lots of inexpensive taps and dies suitable for pens. They don't come in sets so you buy the ones you need.


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## RobS

Also depends on the nib size.

If you are going to use a #6-Jowo, then you could use a 14mmx.75 for the cap, and 10mm x .75 for the section.  People have been known to snag sections from other kits and use a 10mm x 1, I do not recall which kit they were using for the section.

If you are using a #5, then you could use a 12mm x .75 cap and 9 x .75 for the section.  

you will also want to get a tap handle with a conical countersink in the end to use with a tap guide: Tap Guide with adjustable tension for easy, straight threading  the spring loaded tap guide helps keep everything centered.

you will also want a die holder: https://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=2314&category=  note you will also need a 1.5" die holder which I ordered from Rick (rherrell@triad.rr.com )

I would also recommend using a Beall Collet Chuck https://www.woodturnerscatalog.com/p/101/1194/Beall-Collet-Chuck

and a set of collets https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B017WQPG8A/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1


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## Erik831

eharri446 said:


> You will read a lot about needing multi start taps and dies to make a kitless pen, and many of us are waiting on our group buy to come in with those special taps and dies.
> 
> However, you can use standard taps and dies to make the threads that the cap uses to screw onto the body, as well as the threads on your section and inside the body where the section threads into.
> 
> The only special taps that you will need will be for the nib carrier which hold the nib and ink feeder together and screws into the section. You can get those from https://www.classicnib.com/feeds-and-taps/taps-detail
> 
> You can also buy pre-assembled sections from different vendors and some do require a special tap for those as well.
> 
> Other than that, the various documents and YouTube videos on making kitless pens will provide the rest of the basic items required.









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## Erik831

Sorry I still don’t understand very well the threads size. If you could give me a direct link to the tap and die for a common kit to start with? After getting my feet wet I think I’ll have an idea of what other taps and dies I need to purchase next. 


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## ldb2000

Most kit pens use special double or triple start threads in odd ball sizes so there are no off the shelf taps or dies
Kitless penmaking requires much more then just some taps and dies . 
To start you will need a chuck system of some type . a 4 jaw chuck is ok but a collet chuck will be much more useful for kitless pens . a drill chuck for your tailstock will also be quite useful , you should be drilling on the lathe for accuracy . You will need a dial or digital caliper so you cam measure things to the thousandth of an inch . and when you are ready for them a tap and die , a 12x1 metric tap and die for the cap threads and a 8x1 tap for the section , those sizes WILL change depending on allot of different factors . you will also need to make or buy things like a closed end mandrel and last (for now) a complete set of drill bits including metric/inch and letter sizes
 You can have all the tools needed and still not be able to make a kitless pen . You have to understand how a pen is made . The best way to learn is to just do it , you will fail but with each failure you will begin to understand . Don't worry about taps and dies , that will come in time . To start try modifying a few pens first , try a closed end design or try making modified slimline or cigar pens so you can become familiar how to use the tools you have accumulated . Once you have gotten good at measuring and turning to a thousandth of an inch then you can start thinking about full kitless . All the tools in the world won't make you a kitless penmaker , knowledge and understanding is the most important part of making kitless pens .


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## mredburn

Maybe this will help you. From the Library
http://content.penturners.org/library/general_reference/taps_dies_kitless.pdf


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## bmachin

Erik,

I would strongly suggest that you beg, borrow, steal, or buy a copy of "The Penturners Bible" by Richard Kleinhenz which is available from Amazon here: https://www.amazon.com/Pen-Turners-...swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1507209252&sr=1-1.

This is a great project oriented book which starts out simply with slimlines and goes on up through kitless and beyond.  The first kitless project is a clipless fountain pen that uses a readily available Churchill section.  The author provides a list of every tool needed along with options. He explains how threads stack up and gives step by step instructions on how to build the pen.  This is how I built my first kitless pen and I'm pretty sure a lot of other people around here did as well.  It is also probably the simplest and least expensive way of getting started.

Nothing wrong with the other advice that's been presented, but this puts it all in one place.

Bill


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## RobS

bmachin said:


> Erik,
> 
> I would strongly suggest that you beg, borrow, steal, or buy a copy of "The Penturners Bible" by Richard Kleinhenz which is available from Amazon here: https://www.amazon.com/Pen-Turners-...swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1507209252&sr=1-1.
> 
> This is a great project oriented book which starts out simply with slimlines and goes on up through kitless and beyond.  The first kitless project is a clipless fountain pen that uses a readily available Churchill section.  The author provides a list of every tool needed along with options. He explains how threads stack up and gives step by step instructions on how to build the pen.  This is how I built my first kitless pen and I'm pretty sure a lot of other people around here did as well.
> 
> Nothing wrong with the other advice that's been presented, but this puts it all in one place.
> 
> Bill



Highly agree with this. That book is pure gold. It boosted my skill level immensely!!!!!


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## Erik831

Ordered the book. Also I searched some of the tools you guys suggested . If someone could tell me if these would work to start practicing (before I hit the purchase button)





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## RobS

Others have chimed in that they have hit their knuckles on the knurling on the psi collet holder, and that is why I recommend the much more expensive Beall.  The smooth outer nut doesn't hurt if you get too close.

Also the hex 8mm die should be a round die.  Hex dies are traditionally used for cleaning up existing threads, round are for forming from a raw tennon.

I would hold off on your order until you buy the book, and read up more on the process.
You will still need a die holder, and I highly recommend the tap guide.

Also, are you making a #5 or #6, looks like you are going for a #6 nib, if that is the case one of the others needs to confirm if the 8mm will work for the section.  I do not know.


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## moke

Hi Erik,
I recently bought a metal lathe and I have been collecting the various needed (and some not so needed, but cool) tools.   I have had a lot of help from folks here and from a friend that is a retired machinist.

This is truly a long and complicated journey, that I have just started, but I have learned so much just this far, it is staggering, and as mentioned, you really need to get the recommended stuff and dive in.  I started making some things for jigs for my wood shop and for my wood lathe.  I have been accomplishing so much and making things useful that I had laying around, that I have not started on pens yet.  Plus I am still collecting some of the items (taps and dies) for the pen making.  

One thing I did learn, just as 10 years ago when I got my first wood lathe and started to make pens, the cost of the lathe is a minor part of the overall costs, this is almost the same!


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## ldb2000

That collet chuck is the one I use and I love it , I guess I'm lucky but I have never hit my knuckles and the savings over the beall can be put to more tools . If you absolutly insist on getting taps now I would also advise 10x1 for premade sections from kit pens . and very important is to get a caliper of some kind , kitless pens require very exact measurements . 
Now for some questions ,
What do you want to build ?
What is your skill level ?
Have you ever modified a kit pen ?
Have you ever made a closed end pen ?
Closed end pen experience is very important since almost all kitless fp pens are closed end pens and if you cant hold your work or finish a closed end you won't be able to make a kitless pen .
These are things you can do while waiting for tools to come .


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## thawkins87

This may seem like a silly question as I've never made a kitless pen, but most kitless pens I've seen are some polymer compound or another... is it possible to make kitless wooden pens? I could see threads being a long-term usage problem, but wondering if there are ways to do it.


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## bmachin

Erik,

I agree with RobS.  I would just hold off on everything for right now.  A couple of words sources of supply.

If you go with Richard's first project, the clipless fountain pen using taps and dies:

El Grande grip section and nib is available from Pen Kit Making Supplies Berea HardWoods
The El Grande section will require an M10-1 tap
Richard's book will give you several ideas for barrel to section threads.  I used 1/2x32, but there are numerous possibilities.  You will need both the tap and die.  Get 1" high speed steel round dies.  A plug tap will be sufficient.
You will need a die holder and a tap guide.
If you choose to make threaded mandrels (see below) you will also need an M10-1 die.
All of this tooling is available at a reasonable price from Victor Machinery - Metalworking tools and supplies.  Try to order it all at once as they have a $25 minimum order.

All of the tooling recommendations assume that you have a 1/2 inch jacobs style chuck for your tailstock.

Richard will tell you to make two threaded mandrels from steel to hold the barrel and cap while you shape them.  Some of the folks here use pin chucks quite successfully.  I have always made threaded mandrels from aluminum or brass (which you can do on a wood lathe).  Your choice.

Means of precision measurement (Harbor Freight or Lowes digital Caliper) is a necessity.

Workholding:

Depending upon what you already have, you may not need to spring for a collet chuck yet.  That said, I would tend to go along with RobS and hold out for the Beall.  The main reason from my point of view is that the PSI appears to rely strictly on hand strength for tightening, and sometimes that just isn't enough.

This is probably more than you wanted to know, but hope it was helpful.

Bill


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## dogcatcher

I started a different way, first I read everything that I could find on IAP.  I wasn't going to buy the extra expensive taps and dies until I had the fountain pen "mechanics" figured out.  I already had a set of metric tap and dies.  For everything except the nib holder I substituted the standard metric tap and dies.  

As I was reading I kept notes on lengths, sizes etc., and converted that info to my set of taps and dies.  I drew up my ideas with measurements etc., so that when I started I had my plan ready to go.  I first turned the blanks round to fit my collet.  I cut my lengths and did my drilling and tapping using my collet chuck.  When it came to the triple start and specialty tap and dies, I used what I had.  I did order a few of the nib holders etc., from Classic Nib, and that one tap.  

I ruined a few blanks on the way, changed what others had to make it mine, and finally had what I wanted.  It worked, it looked good and it was my design.  I was till using single threaded caps, all I needed was the triple start stuff.  I researched the selling points with past customers, who and how many were interested in fountain pens.  That was a flop, very little interest.  Not enough interest to justify the cost of the taps and dies.  So I was stuck using kits or wasting money.  

But I learned a lot, I do use the same tap and die technique to make seam rippers, just no triple start caps.  You can also make toothpick holders with the same techniques. plus a few other things.

For the tooling, the tap holder, I made my own using scrap aluminum I had, the dies holder, I turned a piece of HDPE and drilled it etc., to make it.  My collet chuck, I already had, I have both the Beall and PSI, save your money get the PSI.  Get a quart of automatic transmission fluid, it works as a lubricant when cutting threads on acrylic.  Also works for wet sanding acrylic.


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## ldb2000

The PSI collet chuck uses "Tommy bars" , not just hand strength , to tighten  the chuck which is just as good as a wrench and the savings will more the pay for a tailstock drill chuck . as far as holding a barrel for a kitless a jam chuck made from some maple works fantastically to hold a closed end barrel , and you can make it to hold the entire blank not just the threaded end .
Again the best tool is experience to successfully make a kitless pen and if you don't have the skills or knowledge you are doomed to failure . Use tutorials wisely to learn what to do but use experience to learn how to do it .
Another thing you should learn is turning between centers . While not absolutely necessary it is a skill that comes in very very handy very often in kitless penmaking 

Tim , wood can not be successfully threaded so some other material must be used to make the connectors . The most common is ebonite but any plastic can be used (some better then others) and metals like aluminum or brass which can be turned and shaped on a wood lathe .


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## bmachin

Butch,

Couldn't tell about the tommy bars from the picture.

As far as wood threads are concerned, see this page Pen 2:

http://www.penturners.org/forum/f380/kitless-contest-poll-146307/

That pen won the kitless contest this year.  You can also search on Fountain Pen Network for Pierre.  He does some amazing stuff and talks a little bit about his all-wood pens over there although he doesn't go into detail about how he does it.

Bill


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## ldb2000

Hi Bill
I didn't know about the tommy bars either , when I bought mine price was most important , it was either PSI or it wasn't . I was very happy to find them in the kit ... lol
As far as wood pens I know it can be done , I've done a few but nothing i'd risk my reputation on . Unless you are using stabilized wood the threading is not worth the time or hassle . I get very little call for fountain pens so I make very few fountain pens , wood or other wise


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## mredburn

http://www.penturners.org/forum/f56/simple-wooden-pen-81097/
http://www.penturners.org/forum/f56/simple-wooden-rollerball-pen-86571/
http://www.penturners.org/forum/f13/walnut-ebony-roller-ball-wooden-pen-91450/
http://www.penturners.org/forum/f13/mesquite-maple-pith-rollerball-87700/
http://www.penturners.org/forum/f13/mesquite-walnut-rollerball-87699/
I have also done wooden sierras.


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## Pierre---

I love wooden threads. They can be just perfect. Well, I admit, sometimes they are not.:frown: You need a good wood (hard, little or no grain, here pau rosa, lignum vitae, tulipwood, kingwood and lignum again), and to forget where your box of dies is. I use a cutter turning at high speed.


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## duncsuss

Pierre--- said:


> I love wooden threads. They can be just perfect. Well, I admit, sometimes they are not.:frown: You need a good wood (hard, little or no grain, here pau rosa, lignum vitae, tulipwood, kingwood and lignum again), and to forget where your box of dies is. I use a cutter turning at high speed.



Pierre, s'il vous plait ... can you show us a photo of your equipment configured for cutting threads? It sounds like you have a thread-cutting jig of some kind, if so could you share which make and where you bought it?


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## PatrickR

Just an observation, but the OP is just starting out and threading wood is not a beginners technique. He did ask if it could be done with wood. The answer is yes, but start with something else until you have the process down. There is a reason that threaded wood is so uncommon. Wood is going to change with the weather much more than plastic or metal and will be far less forgiving.


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## More4dan

RobS said:


> Others have chimed in that they have hit their knuckles on the knurling on the psi collet holder, and that is why I recommend the much more expensive Beall.  The smooth outer nut doesn't hurt if you get too close.
> 
> Also the hex 8mm die should be a round die.  Hex dies are traditionally used for cleaning up existing threads, round are for forming from a raw tennon.
> 
> I would hold off on your order until you buy the book, and read up more on the process.
> You will still need a die holder, and I highly recommend the tap guide.
> 
> Also, are you making a #5 or #6, looks like you are going for a #6 nib, if that is the case one of the others needs to confirm if the 8mm will work for the section.  I do not know.





I usually use a 9mm x 0.75 for the front section of a #5 nib. The smallest I've been able to use is an 8.5mm x 0.6 and only in metal. I'm surprised an 8mm would work.  With a 0.75 pitch your left with less than 0.5mm (0.020") wall between threads. 

Try some mock ups with scrap pieces drilling at thread diameters and turning to the diameters at the bottom of the external threads. Then you can test for wall thicknesses and strength before you buy your taps and dies. 

My rule of thumb has been 2mm differences minimum between section and cap threads assuming 0.75 pitch. It works for metals and acrylics. 

Danny


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## Pierre---

Yes wood is moving, so you do have to choose your blank having that in mind. I agree with Patrick, before threading wood, giving a try on acrylic with regular taps is not a bad idea. 




duncsuss said:


> Pierre--- said:
> 
> 
> 
> Pierre, s'il vous plait ... can you show us a photo of your equipment configured for cutting threads?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My jig is made of scrap, so it's a little scrappy and I'm afraid a pic would not be really clear. Here is one found on the Net, the same idea.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mine has lead screws of different pitches. The limit of this machine is the threaded bars I can find. On the other hand, unlike taps and dies, I can thread any diameter I want. The main difference with the photo is that I use a XY vice for convenience: reproduction is easier, and above all I can make double, triple, quintuple threads or whatever I like.
Click to expand...


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## duncsuss

Pierre--- said:


> My jig is made of scrap, so it's a little scrappy and I'm afraid a pic would not be really clear. Here is one found on the Net, the same idea. ..........
> Mine has lead screws of different pitches. The limit of this machine is the threaded bars I can find. On the other hand, unlike taps and dies, I can thread any diameter I want. The main difference with the photo is that I use a XY vice for convenience: reproduction is easier, and above all I can make double, triple, quintuple threads or whatever I like.



That's like the jig I was thinking of, it looks like an earlier version of THIS ONE.

But your home-made one sounds much more useful for pen making -- multi-start threading is a great advantage


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## Pierre---

duncsuss said:


> That's like the jig I was thinking of, it looks like an earlier version of THIS ONE.
> But your home-made one sounds much more useful for pen making -- multi-start threading is a great advantage



Sure, and the jig you pointed out only threads 16 tpi... too big.


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## duncsuss

Pierre--- said:


> duncsuss said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's like the jig I was thinking of, it looks like an earlier version of THIS ONE.
> But your home-made one sounds much more useful for pen making -- multi-start threading is a great advantage
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sure, and the jig you pointed out only threads 16 tpi... too big.
Click to expand...


You can make them 3 or 4 start :biggrin:


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## Erik831

Ok so just to give you guys an update, I’ve ordered the book mentioned above and I’m going to try one of the projects there. I’ve ordered the Beall chuck, drill bits , a die holder and pin chuck from Rick , a 10Mx1 Tap and die , 1/2-28 tap and die, and a tap guide and I already have a drill chuck . Now I have couple questions I’m trying to order el grande nib from Berea but I don’t know which one to get. They have the medium for $4 and the broad for $8 , which one should I  get ? Also the book calls for a “T” drill bit forgive my ignorance but where do I get that? I search amazon and no luck. And lastly where can I order some blanks for practice? I looked on eBay and very few options came up. 


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## More4dan

Erik831 said:


> Ok so just to give you guys an update, I’ve ordered the book mentioned above and I’m going to try one of the projects there. I’ve ordered the Beall chuck, drill bits , a die holder and pin chuck from Rick , a 10Mx1 Tap and die , 1/2-28 tap and die, and a tap guide and I already have a drill chuck . Now I have couple questions I’m trying to order el grande nib from Berea but I don’t know which one to get. They have the medium for $4 and the broad for $8 , which one should I  get ? Also the book calls for a “T” drill bit forgive my ignorance but where do I get that? I search amazon and no luck. And lastly where can I order some blanks for practice? I looked on eBay and very few options came up.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Penturners.org mobile app





23/64" is within a thousandths of an inch to a T. I prefer a fine tip to medium as the widest unless you want to try calligraphy look. 


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## RobS

To make your life easy I’d recommend buying some Japanese Ebonite from Vermont freehand or some round acrylic rod from him. Buying round will make life easier at first than turning square round.


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## dogcatcher

If you know someone with a metal lathe that can grind a Dremel 199 cutting bit to 60 degrees, you can use the threading jig and cut finer threads.  

Take one of these and grind both edges to the middle to make a 60 degree cutter.


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## Bubba57

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s08FMgC2kdU&t=358s&index=2&list=PLd8OGJeP3PxmPnL4pzwBqeDheKCENtnId


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