# CA and BLO



## kiddo (Aug 8, 2006)

CA and BLO

I have this discussion re using CA and BLO as a finish.

My friend is petrochemical engineer at the local refinery. He has PhD in biochemistry and his job is designing with long chain hydrocarbon molecules.

He see one of my nice pens and is intrigued by the CA finish. This starts the discussion as he asks if all pen makers use CA for finish. I say some do but often mix or apply it with BLO or other â€œsecretâ€ ingredients. I ask his opinion on this and he says â€œlet me think about it a whileâ€. 

I see him a few days later and this is what he say. (technical mumble-jombo deleted).

CA is like a mass of long, sleeping worms. They flex and slide over one another without getting entangled. This represents CA in its liquid state.

The worms are woken up (catalyzed) by being hit on the head by hydrazine ions stripped from moisture (water) in the environment. Catalyst sprays (like NCF)  contain hexaclorofloroethane that has the property of stripping hydrazine ions from H2O.

Anyway, when the â€œwormsâ€ are woken up, they begin to thrash around quite violently. This does two things. Heat is generated by friction from the thrashing molecules, and they start entangling themselves into one massive knot. This is called curing. As the worms thrash around and become more and more entangled, they get so twisted up that they can no longer move and the reaction slows and stops.

In its liquid form, the CA molecules are rather far apart and slide over each other easily. But when it cures into one big molecular knot, they are much closer together. This is what causes an uneven surface or â€œorange peelâ€ effect as the glue cures and contracts.

Now for the BLO part.

Adding BLO to the mix is like adding dead worms to the mix. They do not dance and thrash around during the cure like the surrounding CA molecules. They do not contribute to strengthening the molecular â€œknotâ€ of CA molecules. They inhibit, slowdown and weaken the resulting knot. This leads to a softer final cure.

Some mention that BLO is a catalyst. This is not true. BLO contains a small amount of moisture that contributes hydrazine ions to the process, but is not a catalyst itself.

Some say using BLO is a lubricant to spread out the finish more easily and have better control over finished product. In a nutshell, to do this is accepting an inferior (hardness-wise) finish for the convenience of ease and control of application.

These are not my thoughts, but I thought the group may find this discussion interesting. I believe my friend has the knowledge to analyze this correctly and would give me the straight poop.

Submitted for what its worth.

Kiddo


----------



## wood-of-1kind (Aug 8, 2006)

Kiddo, this is one of the most interesting explanations about CA to date. I actually 'understand' the concept much better now. As an aside, I did a CA/BLO finish on the weekend and it came out better than when using CA on its own. The shine is there w/ the BLO although I understand that it may compromise on the hardness. Thanks for your input.

-Peter-


----------



## RussFairfield (Aug 8, 2006)

We have two choices regarding finishes - we can either listen to the scientists or ignore them. If I had listened to the scientists over the years, I would be using latex paint because they will tell us that nothing works like we say it does. For myself, I will keep on using CA glue and Boiled Linseed Oil because it works. No scientific explanation needed. 

If you really want to drive this guy nuts, tell him about mixing Shellac, alcohol, and Boiled Linseed Oil. According to the scientists, a friction polish is an impossibility.

As for compromising the hardness of the CA. Give the pen a hardness test by trying to scratch it with a lead pencil. In my tests, the CA finish passes a 5H scratch test with or without the BLO.


----------



## mrcook4570 (Aug 8, 2006)

Very interesting.  Love the analogies.


----------



## its_virgil (Aug 8, 2006)

I must agree with Russ on this one. CA alone or CA used with boiled linseed oil is equally hard. After Russ introduced us to the pencil hardness test (at least it was my first time to learn about the test) a month or so back, I did the test on some CA finished pens. I too got a hardness of 5H on CA finishes with and without boiled linseed oil...but, since CA and boiled linseed oil should not work together, I'll put it in the cabinet with my vacuum pump, air compressor, polyester resin, and pressure tank, since, according the the pHd physist in another thread, the pressure and vacuum don't  work either to make my snake blank any clearer or better. I think if we listen to any more pHd's we'll all turn off our lathes and sell our kits and find another hobby.[][][] <b>NOT to all of the above, except that CA with or without boiled linseed oil works. I'll keep my CA oiled. [8D][8D]</b>

Do a good turn daily!
Don


> _Originally posted by RussFairfield_
> <br />We have two choices regarding finishes - we can either listen to the scientists or ignore them. If I had listened to the scientists over the years, I would be using latex paint because they will tell us that nothing works like we say it does. For myself, I will keep on using CA glue and Boiled Linseed Oil because it works. No scientific explanation needed.
> 
> If you really want to drive this guy nuts, tell him about mixing Shellac, alcohol, and Boiled Linseed Oil. According to the scientists, a friction polish is an impossibility.
> ...


----------



## wdcav1952 (Aug 8, 2006)

This used to fire up my parents and two of my brothers who teach. (One has a PhD.)  "Those who can, do.  Those who can't, teach."  Don, I know you taught for 30 plus years, but I regard you as a "doer" in the craft of penturning who, like Russ, chooses to share their practical knowledge.


----------



## its_virgil (Aug 8, 2006)

Thanks William. That little saying can raise the hackle on my neck too, and has through the years. When I hear someone say that, I tell them to write down two three digit numbers and lets multiply them. I can have the answer quicker mentally than they can with pencil and paper....and I tell them not only do I teach math, but I can actually do it also. I'm kinda weird like that at times. I'm getting weird today waiting for tomorrow when I'm heading to New Mexico to DO some fly fishing...[][8D][][8D][}]
Do a good turn daily!
Don


> _Originally posted by wdcav1952_
> <br />This used to fire up my parents and two of my brothers who teach. (One has a PhD.)  "Those who can, do.  Those who can't, teach."  Don, I know you taught for 30 plus years, but I regard you as a "doer" in the craft of penturning who, like Russ, chooses to share their practical knowledge.


----------



## kiddo (Aug 8, 2006)

Seems I upset the Priesthood...

So I add pen turning to my list of controversial subjects not to discuss.

On second thought, scratch that. I really not care whos apple cart I jostle.

Kiddo
[]


----------



## RussFairfield (Aug 8, 2006)

The problem with discussing finishes with a scientist is that finishing is 88% Witchcraft and Alchemy, and the other 12% is science. That leaves the Phd on the short end of the discussion.


----------



## its_virgil (Aug 8, 2006)

There is no Priesthood here....and no controversial subjects...and my apples are neatly stacked in the cart.  I'm so sorry you took offense to my comments. I could act the same way and not answer or comment on any posts for fear of hurting others feelings...but on second thought I'll keep on commenting and hope that my comments are useful and not taken too personally. But it is true...lots of things we do defy the laws of scientific thought.
do a good turn daily!
Don


> _Originally posted by kiddo_
> <br />Seems I upset the Priesthood...
> 
> So I add pen turning to my list of controversial subjects not to discuss.
> ...


----------



## rtparso (Aug 8, 2006)

So if I add worms to my CA it will work better????[8D][8D]


----------



## its_virgil (Aug 8, 2006)

Dunno...I'm happy and pleased with my resluts. Try'em and report back to us.[][]  Looks like every time the CA or other finishing techniques surface, or casting polyester resin, or....the worm can is opened.[8D]
Do a good turn daily!
don


> _Originally posted by rtparso_
> <br />So if I add worms to my CA it will work better????[8D][8D]


----------



## leehljp (Aug 8, 2006)

Jumping in on this conversation, I have learned that finishes on pens are done in a completely different environment than in the world of normal woodworking. The speed, heat, stress forces (within the finish itself) and friction from doing a pen on a lathe turning at 500 RPM (at the least) or higher - causes different reactions than what most scientific testing and theories stake their findings on. Baking cornbread at 120Â° for an hour creates a different texture and flavor than baking it at 400Â° for 12 minutes. []

Very few scientific testings ( with BLO, CA, Acrylics, Lacquer, urethanes, etc) are done with finishes intermixed under the specific extreme conditions and situations in which pens are created. This is one field in which the layman/professional pen turner are doing things and finding results faster than the exacting scientific community can keep up with or have the funds to verify or falsify. While a scientist might want to comment on it, until he or she can scientifically test the finished products, his or her comments are still opinions conditioned on previous assumptions rather than in pen turning situations.


----------



## wood-of-1kind (Aug 8, 2006)

> _Originally posted by kiddo_
> <br />Seems I upset the Priesthood...
> So I add pen turning to my list of controversial subjects not to discuss.
> Kiddo
> []


Kiddo please do not be discouraged to sharing your views. The beauty of the IAP members is that everyone's opinion matters. There may not be a right nor wrong way of doind a CA finish. We must all do what we think is 'right' regardless of different opinions.
-Peter-


----------



## rgundersen (Aug 9, 2006)

I must say I like the interaction of the discussions on the site and I hope nobody takes offense at anyone elses opinions or preferences on the hobby.

I like Hanks response with regards to the scientific theory vs. actual tested results.

As to the original post on the hardness issue the PhD may be accurate but the amount of "hardness" lost due to the addition of BLO is irrelevant for our purposes as penturners, and in fact that lost hardness may help the finish from being as brittle as it may otherwise be.

In general I appreciate this type of information and take it as that more information with which I can go out and test things to see if I care or not.

-Robert


----------



## beaverfsu (Aug 10, 2006)

Kiddo-Thank's for the information, I appreciate.  It is nice to have theory even though we may not see it in the real world.


----------



## bradh (Aug 10, 2006)

I do not pretend to understand all the chemistry, but I do recognize that the comments on the BLO are theory, not fact. Educated theory, and better than I can do, but they do not change the fact that CA/BLO is a hard finish. I remember reading another chemist's analysis and he stated that the BLO is actally active in the curing process and it modifies the type of final bond in the curing. I can not find the entry in the yahoo penturners group, but I remember it was by a chemist from Europe who's name is Henk Verhaar. If I find his posting, I will paste it here.
Brad


----------



## bradh (Aug 10, 2006)

Found the message - sorry for the formatting mess.
Warning: this is pretty technical stuff, way over my head, for a simplified summary, The BLO is active in the curing and links to the CA at a molecular level:

====paste======

On 14 Apr, 2005, at 2:28, &lt;a href="/group/penturners/post?postID=KAM25RlrmYZ6APWl8LbFaLsIwcXaxMHeFIgfe0zCh6T19BvfPwN9YNPzNYZNx_dI2FgBrd3H6nHlK_QCQ9aHvA"&gt;penturners@yahoogroups.com&lt;/a&gt; wrote:&lt;br&gt;
&lt;br&gt;
&gt; Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 03:46:50 -0000&lt;br&gt;
&gt; From: &quot;chatterwc&quot; &lt;&lt;a href="/group/penturners/post?postID=9TDPAkMmv-cg9xMTwy8DxAuWhr0__exNzNagyc8n2cEX9PNgDfANAChbnft3X7A_me3nYUbGCNLPtKvhdQ"&gt;chatterwc@yahoo.com&lt;/a&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;
&gt; Subject: BLO&lt;br&gt;
&gt;&lt;br&gt;
&gt;&lt;br&gt;
&gt; I was at a demonstration by Steven Russell on pen turning this past&lt;br&gt;
&gt; weekend. He stated that BLO will turn black over time. Has anyone else&lt;br&gt;
&gt; had this problem? I have just figured out how to put on a nice finish&lt;br&gt;
&gt; using BLO and CA and am not sure I want to have to change. But I do&lt;br&gt;
&gt; not want my pens to all turn black either.&lt;br&gt;
&lt;br&gt;

Linseed oil, a (semi-)drying oil, will polymerize under influence of &lt;br&gt;
oxygen/radicals. The double bonds in the linseed oil fatty acids &lt;br&gt;
'connect' to each other, and because there are three fatty acids in &lt;br&gt;
each molecule, this creates a 3D network of polymer molecules, i.e. a &lt;br&gt;
resinous 'plastic'.&lt;br&gt;
&lt;br&gt;
BLO, a linseed oil with catalysts added, polymerizes a lot faster, but &lt;br&gt;
yields basically the same resin. Since (B)LO is yellow to begin with, &lt;br&gt;
the resin also is. Due to light influence over time, LO resin will &lt;br&gt;
yellow some more. Can't think of anything that will turn it black, &lt;br&gt;
other than fire, sulfuric acid, or maybe a wrong catalyst (or way too &lt;br&gt;
much of it).&lt;br&gt;
&lt;br&gt;
That being said, the CA/BLO resin is a completely different resin. In &lt;br&gt;
BLO, the cross-links occur between individual fatty+G2008 acid residues, so &lt;br&gt;
the triglycerides (the BLO molecules) are attached to one another, &lt;br&gt;
creating a true resin. In CA, the cyanoacrylate molecules attach to one &lt;br&gt;
another, creating a polyacrylate linear polymer. In CA/BLO, the &lt;br&gt;
cyanoacrylate monomers and oligomers (short chains of CA molecules in &lt;br&gt;
the process of becoming a polyacrylate) basically act similarly to the &lt;br&gt;
catalysts in BLO, in that they accelerate the activation of the fatty &lt;br&gt;

acid double bonds. In contrast to the normal BLO reaction though, the &lt;br&gt;
CA mono/oligomers actually attach to a fatty acid, then attach another &lt;br&gt;
CA or BLO molecule on the other end of their chain. You basically get a &lt;br&gt;
resin in which CA mono/oligomers form bridges between the LO molecules, &lt;br&gt;
so you get a copolymer resin.&lt;br&gt;
&lt;br&gt;
Interestingly, it should be possible to control the average CA chain &lt;br&gt;
length in the bridges, thereby influencing the properties of the resin. &lt;br&gt;
Whether that can be done by time control, temperature, additives, or &lt;br&gt;
choice of CA (thin, thick; methyl, ethyl, octyl, etc), I have no idea. &lt;br&gt;
Don't even know whether any research on CA copolymers exists. Haven't &lt;br&gt;
found it yet...&lt;br&gt;
&lt;br&gt;
Cheers&lt;br&gt;
&lt;br&gt;
Henk&lt;br&gt;
&lt;br&gt;
====================Heisenberg was right!=========================&lt;br&gt;
| Dr. Henk J.M. Verhaar | |&lt;br&gt;
| Principal | e-mail: &lt;a href="/group/penturners/post?postID=1e1JeOsTNNdRxssNnCp9-9DjF0fsyXFT4fsIxaOxR8E5Y8uS2714ExsDlciMI3xYxABZnWuOADaYA5hhyLu6XC2T"&gt;hverhaar@environcorp.nl&lt;/a&gt; |&lt;br&gt;
| Ecotoxicology specialist | home: &lt;a href="/group/penturners/post?postID=U6T67FLGHEnKnOcs92VFvoBkbJ-sliposMZ_yQU3WBbB8Lc6dUAP5j7T3OoenTITep4Jwfym54yxHlsISR51pp7s"&gt;henk@stichtsend.xs4all.nl&lt;/a&gt; |&lt;br&gt;
| ENVIRON Netherlands B.V. | |&lt;br&gt;
| Zeisteroever 17 | phone: +31 30 698 6218 |&lt;br&gt;
| NL-3704 GB Zeist | fax: +31 30 698 6239 |&lt;br&gt;
| the Netherlands | |&lt;br&gt;
====================Uncertainty happens!==========================&lt;br&gt;


----------



## alparent (Aug 15, 2006)

Why don't we ask the CA finish goods for some wisdom?

FANGAR! Come out and talk to us! Oh, great one!

Do you apply your CA with or witout BLO?


----------

