# more elephant ivory - just for Roy!!



## terryf (Apr 23, 2011)

Two Sierras I turned with smaller off cuts. Nice pattern to the blank.
The one I turned a bit on the fat side for bigger hands.

Thanks for looking Roy :biggrin::biggrin: and all others that took the time


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## maxman400 (Apr 23, 2011)

They came out Nice.


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## wiset1 (Apr 23, 2011)

Excellent looking!  Terry, your pens are true works of art and look great


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## skiprat (Apr 23, 2011)

Cool !!  The top one, with the black hardware was always going to look classy because of the classic colour combo, but I'm also impressed with the Ti colour combination. I wouldn't have thought it would work, but it obviously does. Not a big fan of the boerewors shape though:tongue: ( actually had some on the braai yesterday :biggrin: )


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## BRobbins629 (Apr 23, 2011)

Nice stuff Terry.


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## wizard (Apr 23, 2011)

You did it again! Great job! Both versions look good! Turning it all the way down seems like a waste of ivory..I like the way you turned it. Shows more of the ivory. You are truly torturing Roy! Doc


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## OKLAHOMAN (Apr 23, 2011)

*Mommy, the man from South Africa is teasing me, make him stop!*​


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## bobjackson (Apr 23, 2011)

Both nice pens. Great job.


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## terryf (Apr 23, 2011)

Thanks for the compliments guys!

Sorry Roy but I couldnt resist - do you want to see the others???

Skip, the boerwors shape is for the tannies with the fingers so thick they press once on their BB's and type qwerty 
Glad you can get boerewors over there!!


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## Jim in Oakville (Apr 23, 2011)

Is this REAL elephant Ivory?


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## Russell Eaton (Apr 23, 2011)

Very cool pen. I was wondering if it has a odd smell when it is turned? Thanks for showing.  Russell


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## OKLAHOMAN (Apr 23, 2011)

terryf said:


> Thanks for the compliments guys!
> 
> *Sorry Roy but I couldnt resist - do you want to see the others???*
> 
> *See, Mommy I told you and he's doing it again.*


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## drgoretex (Apr 23, 2011)

Nice perk to live in SA.  Beautiful pens there..

Ken


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## Jim in Oakville (Apr 23, 2011)

Elephant ivory comes from an elephant...still shaking my head that anyone thinks this okay.....am I missing something here?


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## OKLAHOMAN (Apr 24, 2011)

Jim as has been stated many times here in the US any Ivory imported after 1989 is not legal, in countries like South Africa it is legally harvested from Elephants that die of natural causes... Is pouching still done, I'm sure it is but don't lump the legally obtained ivory with pouches as most pouched ivory goes to China.


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## terryf (Apr 24, 2011)

OKLAHOMAN said:


> Jim as has been stated many times here in the US any Ivory imported after 1989 is not legal, in countries like South Africa it is legally harvested from Elephants that die of natural causes... Is pouching still done, I'm sure it is but don't lump the legally obtained ivory with pouches as most pouched ivory goes to China.


 
Thanks for jumping in here Roy 

Actually Jim, the legal sale of harvested ivory supports *anti poaching* and other "green" initiatives. 

People use all sorts of alternative materials - snake skins, antler, buffalo horn etc - I dont see this as being any different other than the elephant died of natural causes


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## Jim in Oakville (Apr 24, 2011)

OKLAHOMAN said:


> Jim as has been stated many times here in the US any Ivory imported after 1989 is not legal, in countries like South Africa it is legally harvested from Elephants that die of natural causes... Is pouching still done, I'm sure it is but don't lump the legally obtained ivory with pouches as most pouched ivory goes to China.



I don't think the elephants read the rules nor do the family member who lost the member of the herd care for what man decides, to me, it's still blood on the hands of any use of such material. 

I was actually sleepless last night with upset over this..  1989....2011, 1921 what ever, a wild gentle animal was lost to the hands of man, and aging his or her ivory does not make it it any more right in my mind to use the spoils of the kill....  I am still deeply upset with this, ....  Man can make rules to control and make them selves feel better about this, but was wrong then, will always be wrong today in my feeling....  This ivory is no different.  Sorry for making an opinion on this, I have been a member here since 2004 and I have seen a lot, this is the first time I have been upset like this and I can't sit here and miss the point of what I see.


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## Jim in Oakville (Apr 24, 2011)

terryf said:


> OKLAHOMAN said:
> 
> 
> > Jim as has been stated many times here in the US any Ivory imported after 1989 is not legal, in countries like South Africa it is legally harvested from Elephants that die of natural causes... Is pouching still done, I'm sure it is but don't lump the legally obtained ivory with pouches as most pouched ivory goes to China.
> ...



Written with respect Terry,

I don't see the balance here.  Buffalo are like cattle, there are many many many thousands and are harvested by those for either consumption or to feed other wild life.  Snakes, again populations exceed what is considered an endangered level.  Elephants are well documented in their plight, and with the recent efforts they are under protection to some limited degree.  I do read about poaching that still to this day exists, that is a fact that hurts us all.  What I have a very hard time with is the use of the ivory no matter how it is harvested.  Maybe I should just ignore the fact that an animal under extreme duress has had part of it's body cultivated for this type of use.

Terry, I don't live in SA, nor have I ever been there.  I respect that you made a nice pen, but you certainly must have thought that given the history of what has happened in the past that this can also go to stir conversation.  I am still upset, these are my sincere and honest feelings.


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## OKLAHOMAN (Apr 24, 2011)

Jim I respect your view on the subject of Elephant Ivory, we must keep this as friendly as possible. I am not a hunter but I enjoy a deer back-strap or sausage but I pull the trigger on Bambi, but I know that if the herds of deer are not thinned they will be no more deer in the future as there is not enough forage to support unlimited growth of the herds. Since CITES in 1989 the Elephant heard in South Africa has grown by a large percentage. The only ivory that is harvested is by the government and harvested from elephants that died from natural causes and the money from those sales are used to control pouching.
So in effect the use of legal ivory gathered and sold is helping the elephant.  
Jim I still am glad that even though we differ on this we can still do it in a friendly manner.


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## terryf (Apr 24, 2011)

Jim

You are entitled to your opinion, as we all are!! Yes, I live here, I am an avid conservationist and photographer. I do not participate in any form of hunting. I do, however, understand, as a conservationist, the need for things like culling. It is a world recognised practice.

Our country is not a rich country by international standards but certainly by African standards.

The process of selling off ivory that has been harvested from natural deaths and culling processes serves to fund conservation. 

Your argument regarding Buffalo in the thousands is not applicable in South Africa or Southern Africa for that matter - this may be different in the States.

Don't forget that, like Buffalo, Elephants were once in the millions in Africa. Any species can fall to the same fate that became the Elephant - anyone who does not believe that is a fool!

The fact that I support legal trade in ivory means that I support conservation, for each and every piece of ivory that I purchase, helps fund conservation.

What would you have us do with all the ivory recovered from culling and deaths by natural causes?

This is my opinion, to which I am entitled - it is not one of ignorance but rather education.

Please never ignore your your beliefs or principles and I respect your opinion but at the same time, we live in a democratic world, one which allows us to make such choices, to live by certain principles and enjoy the freedom of such beliefs.

Lastly, it was never my intention to cause controversy over a pen. We have so much else in the world to focus our energy on I certainly wouldnt want to be the cause of anyones emotional distress and to that end I shall refrain from any further postings containing ivory.

My sincerest apologies for any offense I may have caused you Jim!

Respectfully
Terry



Jim in Oakville said:


> terryf said:
> 
> 
> > OKLAHOMAN said:
> ...


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## Jim in Oakville (Apr 24, 2011)

OKLAHOMAN said:


> Jim I respect your view on the subject of Elephant Ivory, we must keep this as friendly as possible. I am not a hunter but I enjoy a deer back-strap or sausage but I pull the trigger on Bambi, but I know that if the herds of deer are not thinned they will be no more deer in the future as there is not enough forage to support unlimited growth of the herds. Since CITES in 1989 the Elephant heard in South Africa has grown by a large percentage. The only ivory that is harvested is by the government and harvested from elephants that died from natural causes and the money from those sales are used to control pouching.
> So in effect the use of legal ivory gathered and sold is helping the elephant.
> Jim I still am glad that even though we differ on this we can still do it in a friendly manner.



Thank you Roy,

I am only stating my feelings in the friendliest way I feel, I am not condemning Terry (a very good guy) , but I do have strong feelings about the history of any type of poaching of any animal for the purposes we are all familiar with, age and rules do not change that for me.

I will share some of my own history with you.  I was a geologist for 10 years, working towards a PhD.  My field area of study was in the remote regions of the Canadian arctic.  I was typically remote for 4-5 months with limited human contact, living in a tent with the very basics.  In those days there were no cell phones, GPS or tracking methods, I mapped with topographic maps and flight lines of B&W photo's taken in the 1950's.  The most dangerous part of my work aside from isolation and being many many many hundreds of miles from any rescue support were Polar Bears.  My daily work invovled walking 25-30 miles a day and I saw a lot of wild life.  I saw on average about 200 bears a summer, they might have had cubs with them or been lone males out hunting, either way I had been trained how to move with them, being awre of their needs, where I was in the wind and avoiding conflict.  At the end of the last summer I studied in the arctic I was confronted by a polar bear, this had happened before and I usually was able to hit them with the blast of a rubber bullet and they would leave quickly, this last event did not turn out that way.  I was forced to kill to save my life, an animal that is also protected from poachers by government rules.  It was devastating to hear the animal struggle and then loose it's life.  I realized it was to save my own life, but I am to this day haunted by the event, will probably go to my grave with it.  What I went through afterwards was equally devastating, as a government employee I was forced to save the body and protect it.  Polar bears are carnivores who will eat their own, so within hours of the event I had bears swarming my camp area looking for the body.  It was three days before the RCMP was able to arrive via helicopter, they brought a biologist with them, they took my deposition, measured the bear (aprox 18 yrs, male, 12 feet from nose to tail, 1200 lbs), then skinned and destroyed the body.  I still think to this day I was on his land, and, if I had not been there he might have lived.   

My point is, there is a lot of imbalance in this world, sometimes it's unavoidable, sometimes there are choices.  I believe that poaching fro the sake of exploitation is not only avoidable, but an avoidable crime.  I praise those in SA who now are doing their best to make this change, I still think it is wrong to use the materials, be it a polar bear rug or elephant ivory, just my feelings...  perhaps I am alone in this sentiment, maybe I'm just a Canadian suck, but I can tell you having shot and killed an animal on a list that is protected, even to save my own life, has given me the reason to respect the past and not endanger the future.   Nuf Said


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## Jim in Oakville (Apr 24, 2011)

terryf said:


> Jim
> 
> You are entitled to your opinion, as we all are!! Yes, I live here, I am an avid conservationist and photographer. I do not participate in any form of hunting. I do, however, understand, as a conservationist, the need for things like culling. It is a world recognised practice.
> 
> ...



Terry, as I have said, I respect you and wish you to know that, this has triggered some deep feelings that I share,  I am glad we can discuss this as we have, I have learnt from your words and value your patience and teaching to me.  Thank you, I have no bad feelings towards you my friend, I just need to express my concerns to clear the air, you have done so and I thank you


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## bitshird (Apr 24, 2011)

Terry, Both pens are beautiful, I'm saddened to see this wind up in a P.E.T.A. (which to my way stands for People Eating Tasty Animals,  Jim there are several places to buy Legally obtained Elephant Ivory, while I considered CITIES to be just one mor bunny hugger group, through their management and assistance many endangered species, (all except the American middle class families) have made some inroads towards a recovery, Many of the tusks, pelts, and bones that are recovered for illegally taken animals are auctioned off and that money goes back to help the vanishing species. It's noit enough to stop the poaching, but it does help considerably. Were it not for the protection programs, several species would be gone. I notice you live in Canada, What about the Polar and Grizzly bears not to mention the common Black Bears that have no place to hunt other than city dumps, and then your garbage cans. They are a definite risk to the humans that have encroached on their territory, I imagine it's the same in the areas of Africa where the Elephant herds roam. and like us some of the poor things die of natural causes, so why not do the green thing and utilize what's left of the carcase! I would hope they could do the same with mine. That would cut down on the human remains dumps, (Cemetery's) eventually that hallowed ground will be needed to sustain the living population in the future. 
What about the wood that we use, some of these timbers are on an extreme danger list.


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## Tanner (Apr 24, 2011)

Beautiful pens!!  I have some Mammoth Ivory I need to use up.  Now you've inspired me to make a couple pens with it.


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## Jim in Oakville (Apr 24, 2011)

bitshird said:


> Terry, Both pens are beautiful, I'm saddened to see this wind up in a P.E.T.A. (which to my way stands for People Eating Tasty Animals,  Jim there are several places to buy Legally obtained Elephant Ivory, while I considered CITIES to be just one mor bunny hugger group, through their management and assistance many endangered species, (all except the American middle class families) have made some inroads towards a recovery, Many of the tusks, pelts, and bones that are recovered for illegally taken animals are auctioned off and that money goes back to help the vanishing species. It's noit enough to stop the poaching, but it does help considerably. Were it not for the protection programs, several species would be gone. I notice you live in Canada, What about the Polar and Grizzly bears not to mention the common Black Bears that have no place to hunt other than city dumps, and then your garbage cans. They are a definite risk to the humans that have encroached on their territory, I imagine it's the same in the areas of Africa where the Elephant herds roam. and like us some of the poor things die of natural causes, so why not do the green thing and utilize what's left of the carcase! I would hope they could do the same with mine. That would cut down on the human remains dumps, (Cemetery's) eventually that hallowed ground will be needed to sustain the living population in the future.
> What about the wood that we use, some of these timbers are on an extreme danger list.



Ken,

I did not condemn nor address Terry with any personal condemnation, I speak with respect for what I felt is important to me to consider when choosing materials, be they be part of an endangered list or not.  As we all know there is injustice globally in this light, so selecting any one cause to support with concern does not address all.  Terry has been more than kind to share his knowledge here and I appreciate that.  My opinion is just that, my own.  I have learnt from what Terry shared and I can feel less distress knowing that there are efforts with legitimate focus working against those who choose to exploit these animals.   

I am not sure if you read what I wrote or understand what I said, but to be clear, I don't choose to use materials that go against my conscience.  I spoke with the gallery owner today who I sell my pens with about the ivory issue within her business and those she knows.  She clearly said to me, that she will not sell or market anything with ivory in it, no matter it's provenance or paper documentation.  
She said it is too uncomfortable and unclear an issue for her to have to deal with and many of her friends in the same type of businesses also will not sell it either.  I can see where there maybe a market for this, I hope Terry has access to them, he makes beautiful pens, I only speak from what I know and what I have learnt.

I am aware of the plight and exploitation of animals globally, some with my own personal experience working in the far north, but mostly via the internet.  Ken, I don't need a label for what I care about with group names nor assign my support to any one casue, but I do make Life choices in all aspects of what I do/use that I feel are in the best interests of making the least impact to this world and the nature that supports it's healthy well being...call me what you like.


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