# Yet some more questions about segmenting



## aggromere (May 25, 2009)

Well I got my new byrnes table saw and have made a few segmented blanks from scraps and such.  I still can not get a perfectly straight segment running lengthwise.

Only thing i can figure is that the blank is not perfectly square when I start or my hole is not perfectly centered.  

Do you guys square up all sides of a blank before you start segmenting?  Or am I just not doing it right.  For example, if i want to put lengthwise strips of a contrasting material I cut down the middle of the blank and then glue it.  Then I cut down the center of the side 90 degrees from the first one and then insert and glue.  Once I drill and turn down to pen size the inlays run at a slight angle.

When i do cross ways segments they line up okay.  I haven't tried any angles yet, wanted to get the lenghtwise right before I move on.

Any suggestions or tips would be greatly appreciated.


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## mickr (May 25, 2009)

drill on you lathe..has helped my work immensly


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## leehljp (May 25, 2009)

From my point of view and from experience, straight for the length of the blank - is the hardest cut. One straight cut is fine, two most of the time, but 4, 6 and 8 - one usually comes out off center. Angles and parallel angle cuts are much easier. 

From my perspective, straight cuts on each side of the blank come with considerable experience or very skilled hand/eye coordination for placement. Square, and I do mean "squared" blanks really help.


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## VisExp (May 25, 2009)

Eagle always used to tell me, "you need to drill through the center of the design, not through the center of the blank". 

When you're done with your glue ups put the blank on the lathe between centers. You can put the centers right in the center of the x's on either end of the blank. Turn the blank down to 3/4", use a 3/4" wrench as a gage. Cut the blank for the upper and lower barrels. Then mount it on the lathe in a Colet chuck and drill on the lathe.

You'll then be drilling through the center of the design.


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## leehljp (May 25, 2009)

> Eagle always used to tell me, "you need to drill through the center of the design, not through the center of the blank".



That is what I do, once I get a series of straight cuts down the length of the blank on each side.


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## jttheclockman (May 25, 2009)

aggromere said:


> Well I got my new byrnes table saw and have made a few segmented blanks from scraps and such. I still can not get a perfectly straight segment running lengthwise.
> 
> Only thing i can figure is that the blank is not perfectly square when I start or my hole is not perfectly centered.
> 
> ...


 

Pictures would help as to what you are trying to do. Segmenting is such a broad term. I am going under the assumption you are putting strips down the length of a blank because you mention straight lines. The blank needs to be perfectly square and the ends need to be perfect 90 degrees to the sides. Starting with an accurate blank will help in the end. The cuts you make must be equally spaced all around. Your fence must be perfect parrallel to the blade. Here again we do not know the pattern you are after. But if you are cutting all the way through the blank they must be glued back together exactly. Drilling on the lathe will be very helpful in drilling down the center of the pattern. Like I said a photo would help in explaing better.  When measuring always measure to the center of the kerf of the blade. Good luck


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## workinforwood (May 25, 2009)

Yes, what Keith says is so true.  Most of my custom blanks, you must locate the center if I do not do so for you.
Far as cutting straight, well the blank needs to be straight and square.  The saw needs to be tuned properly.  The distance from the edge of the blade to the fence must be the same at the front and the back of the blade.  If the back is closer than the front you get the squeeze kickback, so many people will make the back of the blade a bit further from the fence, which is incorrect also..the distance is to be the same.  Clean your blade if it is an old one. A dull or dirty blade will deflect during a cut.  Drive the wood through the saw with a moderate speed, not too slow but not pushing too fast either, a steady even pace, with a push stick of course.

I drill everyting on a drill press.  The vise is squared.  The lathe is then squared to the vise.  Going back to what keith says..the center may not be the center. Therefore you must use a drill press to drill the blank...that is if it is a square blank of course.  I've seen some people like Keith use centers and a spur to counter that problem.


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## devowoodworking (May 25, 2009)

VisExp said:


> Eagle always used to tell me, "you need to drill through the center of the design, not through the center of the blank".
> Turn the blank down to 3/4", use a 3/4" wrench as a gage. Cut the blank for the upper and lower barrels. Then mount it on the lathe in a Colet chuck and drill on the lathe.
> 
> You'll then be drilling through the center of the design.


 
You can't buy better tips than that!


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## Paul in OKC (May 26, 2009)

I agree with Eagle.


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## bdonald (May 26, 2009)

Paul in OKC said:


> I agree with Eagle.



No kidding! So simple, yet so GENIUS!  I gave up on getting it straight, but am going to revisit it with this in mind now.  Thanks!


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## ngeb528 (May 27, 2009)

If all that doesn't work, tell everyone you meant to make it look like it came out. :wink:


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## aggromere (May 31, 2009)

*Segmenting with Byrnes Table Saw*

Here is a pic of the first blank I finished into a pen that was made using my new Byrne Table saw.  Nothing fancy but I think it looks sharp.

It is Black Knight Poly resin from Dawn with four white pickguard lines running the length of both barrels.  I got them lined up pretty good when the pen is closed, but not perfect.

Instead of doing a true segment I simply squared the blank on the table saw and then set the fence so I would cut down the middle of each side of the blank.   Rather than cut all the way through the blank I cut just deep enough to be inside the diameter of the smallest tube.  The kerf of the small saw blade was exactly the width of the pickguard.  I put a line of CA in the cut and inserted the pickguard.

Just curious if that is the way you advanced pen makers do this or do you cut all the way through the blank.

It was odd turning and sanding it.  I was getting some vibrations I don't normally get.  I hand sanded back and forth with the lathe off and concluded that it was from the pickguard.  Although the pen is perfectly smooth throughout I think the pickguard is a tiny bit higher than the resin and that was what was causing the vibration.

Looking for any tips or suggestions that could help me continue to advance my pen making.  Thanks.


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## VisExp (May 31, 2009)

aggromere said:


> Here is a pic of the first blank I finished into a pen that was made using my new Byrne Table saw.



You mean there were blanks that didn't make it into a pen :wink: :biggrin:  Just kidding Peter.  I have more blanks that didn't make it, than I have completed pens.  It's part of the game and your completed pen looks great.  Well done.



aggromere said:


> Instead of doing a true segment I simply squared the blank on the table saw and then set the fence so I would cut down the middle of each side of the blank.   Rather than cut all the way through the blank I cut just deep enough to be inside the diameter of the smallest tube.  The kerf of the small saw blade was exactly the width of the pickguard.  I put a line of CA in the cut and inserted the pickguard.



That is pretty similair to the way I make my this pen The only difference was I made all six cuts, then inserted the inlays and lastly smothered it with thin CA.  The thin CA will wick into the smallest of joints.  I know if I applied the CA first I would get the inlay stuck when it was half way into position.





aggromere said:


> It was odd turning and sanding it.  I was getting some vibrations I don't normally get.  I hand sanded back and forth with the lathe off and concluded that it was from the pickguard.  Although the pen is perfectly smooth throughout I think the pickguard is a tiny bit higher than the resin and that was what was causing the vibration.


 

I would guess that is caused by the inlay material being harder than the main pen blank.  Once I started using a 1 1/4" Lacer skew all those vibration problems disappeared.  The large skew looks pretty silly next to a little pen blank, but it works great.  The guys in my local chapter tease me about my skew.  They say I just show it to the pen blank and blank gets so nervous the wood starts to fall off. 

Looking forward to seeing what you come up with next!


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## leehljp (May 31, 2009)

aggromere said:


> Just curious if that is the way you advanced pen makers do this or do you cut all the way through the blank.
> 
> It was odd turning and sanding it.  I was getting some vibrations I don't normally get.  I hand sanded back and forth with the lathe off and concluded that it was from the pickguard.  Although the pen is perfectly smooth throughout I think the pickguard is a tiny bit higher than the resin and that was what was causing the vibration.



Yes, that is the way that I did it too. 

For turning and sanding it, I did like one pict that Eagle posted some time ago - I wrapped it with thread and CA'ed the thread. I guess Eagle was afraid that the segments would separate when the knife hit the ridges. (. . and I was too.) Call it being overly cautious on a delicate blank, but too much work had been put in on the blank to chance it having a blow out.


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## aggromere (Jun 2, 2009)

*Zen Pen using byrnes tablesaw*

Here is my next blank that I used for a pen. Several went in the scrap heap between the last one and this one, but not as many as the first try.

It is a zen pen (first one I made) with Rambutan wood and two pick guard inlays on two sides. I can't quite get the hang of two on all four sides. It seems that more often than not the dimensions are such that the second line on one side cuts into the line on the adjacent side. 

There is a woodworkers source near me and they always have a lot of Rambutan cut offs for sale cheap that I can make into blanks. Not a very interesting grain, but it finishes up very nice and I think makes a good background for inlays and such.

I have been buying pickguard from some web site that sells to guitar makers. They don't have any really interesting layered ones, just some version of black/white.

If anyone knows where you can get flashy pickguard that is layered let me know. Like yellow, red and blue layered with white or just plain. 

I'm sending this pen to my oldest sone who lives in Ft. Worth.  A while back I made my grand daughter (age 3) a magic wand (was bored) out of a long piece of the Rambutan and segmented a pointy piece of antler on the end.  I wrote a little story about it how a little girl in a village saved everyone from a dragon with the wand.  My son says almost every nite she likes to hold the wand while he reads her the story right before she goes to sleep.  So I thought he would like a pen with the same wood.  Oh well, that's just how boring my life is, lol.

Thanks


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## VisExp (Jun 3, 2009)

aggromere said:


> I can't quite get the hang of two on all four sides. It seems that more often than not the dimensions are such that the second line on one side cuts into the line on the adjacent side.


 
Peter, it sounds like you are trying to make a pen with eight stripes.  The method you are using is not working because the blade is not cutting towards the center of the blank, so when you turn the pen the sides of the inlay are being exposed instead of just the top of the inlay.  Hope that made sense.

Try this.  Prepare a blank with four inlays, one on each side, the same way you have been doing.  Then make a jig/sled for you table saw that has a v shape on the front and back of the sled.  Place the blank in the v's and make the cuts for the inlays.  You are effectively rotating the blank 45 degrees to make that cut.  

You will need to raise the blade a bit to account for the thickness of the sled as well as the fact that you are cutting through the "diagonal" of the square so the distance to the center of the blank is greater.  

I don't know if your table saw has a miter slot or not.  If it doesn't you can just run the the sled along the table saw fence.  Make sure the blank sits securely in the v's and does not rock from side to side at all.


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## tdibiasio (Jun 5, 2009)

I am navigating the same waters that Peter is lately as I think he received his Byrnes saw about 2 or 3 days before me.  So I have been watching this thread very closely, and have a comment and a question to add:

After mis reading the technique for making a "pin stripe" blank I simply cut a kerf almost all the way through one side, approximatly 7/8 of the way through the blank.  I then presssed  the inlay into the kerf and made sure it was seated properly and then put the thin CA to is like there was no tomorrow.  After sitting over night I repeated this procedure on the adjacent side and glued that in.  I then simply trimmed the excess inlays and cut the blanks to size for tubing.  After drilling the blank and putting the tubes in, I fitted the blank with the bushings and a found out that I was very lucky on the cap end of a Jr gent.  There is just enough of the inlay showing outside the bushing, but not enough to make me want to do it again.  I now understand the four cut method as explained.  It is weird how you read something without picture and imagine something completly different in your mind.

I have not turned these blanks yet, will most likely get to it this weekend.  My question is before I turn or more to the point - assemble the kit - is there any guidance or help you can give me on how to make the inlays line up from the barrel to the cap.  I have never done this before so any suggestion would be great.

Also - I was thinking that to do a 6 or 8 stripe segment, is is possible to knock the corners of the blank down by 45 degrees after doing the original 4.  This would give you a flat surface to register the blank on the table and against the fence.  The only issue I have with doing it the way suggested above is that with the Byrnes saw I dont think I will have the clearance needed to use a "V" sled.

Thanks

Tom


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## aggromere (Jun 5, 2009)

after i turn thr blanks to pen size i assemble the upper barrel.  I then fit the threads for the lower barrel into the upper.  Like the pen is together but the lower blank isn't assembled yet.  I then experiment with hand pressing the lower barrel onto the fitting while it is screwed into the upper barrel until it lines up.  I hand press the blank as tight as i can get it in the lined up position.  I unscrew the fitting from the top barrel and transfer it to my pen press while still hand pressed and complete the assembly of the lower.

It's a good idea to mark the sleeves so you can put the two ends that you had when you cut the blank to size.  There might be a slight variation in the inlays so it makes it easier if you have those two ends together.

Hope that helps.

Another thing I learned is to mark each end of the blank in the center of the inlays as opposed to the center of the blank.  If cut properly that's not an issue but I very seldom do things properly.

VisExp told me the way he does the 6 inlays is to cut the blank to a hexagon shape (like a stop sign) and then do inlays on all 6 sides.  The byrnes saw doesn't have a tilt table so I am unable to use that method, and as you mentioned, the depth of the blade isn't big enough to use some sleds.

VisExp and Rherrell are great sources for info on how to do these things.  Rherrell has some nice photos posted of his byrnes saw and some jigs he uses.  I asked him to make me some jigs and he did so at a very reasonable cost.  You might want to send him a message and ask.


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