# Advise on Plating Options



## Donnie Kennedy (Aug 29, 2013)

I got into penturning long after I began woodturning, so I didn't go through that phase that a lot of people go through where they buy the less expensive components to practice with until they get into the swing of things. Up until this point all I've ever bought are kits with fittings plated with black & gold titanium, platnium, rhodium, and combinations of those platings. For me it's a matter of making pens with parts that will last a long time without showing signs of wear with normal use.

Now that I'm getting more serious about the aspect of selling pens I've been thinking about making some pens with components that are a little less expensive just to have some offerings at a lower price point. As I'm building up inventory for Christmas sales this is weighing heavily on my mind and I would like some feedback from some of you that have been on the pen making scene for a while.


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## 1080Wayne (Aug 30, 2013)

Chrome should wear as well or better than those mentioned , and be cheaper , except maybe some of the mixed bright/satin chrome ones . Guess I would tend to using plainer blanks for a lower price point rather than equally durable cheaper platings .


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## Donnie Kennedy (Aug 30, 2013)

1080Wayne said:


> Chrome should wear as well or better than those mentioned , and be cheaper , except maybe some of the mixed bright/satin chrome ones . Guess I would tend to using plainer blanks for a lower price point rather than equally durable cheaper platings .




Funny you should mention that... I just added a couple of 2 tone chrome Sierra kits on an order last night to check them out. Oooops.


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## mrcook4570 (Aug 30, 2013)

Chrome is a good option.


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## Dan Masshardt (Aug 30, 2013)

I believe both chrome and gun metal hold up just fine and are widely available.


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## Donnie Kennedy (Aug 30, 2013)

Thanks for the replies. What about black chrome?


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## OKLAHOMAN (Aug 30, 2013)

Donnie, please take this as just my opinion and not to demean lower end pens. . Why would you want to down grade your inventory with less expensive product. There is nothing wrong with chrome  other then when talking to customers and you've talked to them about the plating on your higher end pens and the benifits of Rhodium, Titanium  and now you tell them they can get a pen in chrome (plated just like the $4.95 papermate they can get at Wally world). Instead why not have lower end blanks for your less expensive pens but keep the plating as a selling point. When customers hear chrome they don't think long wearing they think of their Dads peeling bumper on his old car. Yes I will agree that today's chrome is OK it's just not a good talking point.


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## ed4copies (Aug 30, 2013)

Counterpoint:
Suppose you bought a Bentley.  The car is handmade, money is no object and the front end, which will hit the insects and take the beating is made of .......rhodium??  NO,
CHROME!!!

So the best of the best use chrome---Bentley, Cadillac, Harley----because it is unsurpasssed for durability!!  (Under the toughest of conditions!!)


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## dwarmbrodt (Aug 30, 2013)

I'm gonna guess that some people when they hear chrome think of vehicle trim finish that is meant to look good first, functionality is secondary. In my hot rod days I chromed anything I could..... So, when it comes to pen finishes, I refer to a chrome finish as chromium, which is the proper name. Sounds so much better in my humble opinion.


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## Dan Hintz (Aug 30, 2013)

ed4copies said:


> Counterpoint:
> Suppose you bought a Bentley.  The car is handmade, money is no object and the front end, which will hit the insects and take the beating is made of .......rhodium??  NO,
> CHROME!!!
> 
> So the best of the best use chrome---Bentley, Cadillac, Harley----because it is unsurpasssed for durability!!  (Under the toughest of conditions!!)


Counter-counterpoint:
If you offer a Rhodium bumper option for $20k, I'd bet you'd get plenty of people lining up to purchase it... because it sounds cooler to say you have one when trying to play keep-up-with-the-Joneses.


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## ALexG (Aug 30, 2013)

I have my Pen/pencil combo for my daily use since 4 years ago, is a 24K, nothing fancy and not a single scratch, and believe me I use it a lot and I dropped it innumerable times, I believe less expensive kits are good as well, as you know there is always people that buys them and keep doing it because they are more affordable than expensive rhodium/titanium plating, you have to have a wide range of pens as for cars, some people buys Fiats and they are as happy or more than the ones who buys a cadillac


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## BSea (Aug 30, 2013)

I think chrome is a good option, along with upgrade gold.  I have to disagree with AlexG on the 24K gold.  My wife has a gold euro that she keeps in her purse.  After a year, it looks pretty bad.  Same thing with a gunmetal sierra. 

I made myself a keyring with chrome.  It's showing brass after being in my pocket for almost 3 years.  But I'd think a keyring would get much more abuse than a pen.


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## ed4copies (Aug 30, 2013)

Dan Hintz said:


> ed4copies said:
> 
> 
> > Counterpoint:
> ...



Sorry Dan!!

If I ran into you at a show and you used that line, I would simply ask the customer if he thinks the design teams at Bentley, Cadillac and Harley have not already evaluated the profit potential of YOUR idea.  Their designers are paid millions---if you have ideas they have missed, might want to apply for a job---I suspect it will pay MUCH BETTER than art shows!!:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

By using chrome, I can price my pens about 20% lower.  When you use the pen at the board meeting, the rest of the people in the room cannot see a difference----why pay MORE for something that has no real benefits?


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## ed4copies (Aug 30, 2013)

BSea said:


> I think chrome is a good option, along with upgrade gold.  I have to disagree with AlexG on the 24K gold.  My wife has a gold euro that she keeps in her purse.  After a year, it looks pretty bad.  Same thing with a gunmetal sierra.
> 
> I made myself a keyring with chrome.  It's showing brass after being in my pocket for almost 3 years.  But I'd think a keyring would get much more abuse than a pen.



One clarification, please Bob.

Berea JUST started offering the sierra in gunmetal about 2 months ago.  So, although your pen IS a SIERRA---it is NOT a BEREA SIERRA.  

Calling a plating "gunmetal" is not defining it, at all.  This is a case where the company making the product can make a world of difference in the durability of the product that is produced.!

FWIW,
Ed


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## OKLAHOMAN (Aug 30, 2013)

Point and Counterpoint, Bentley and Rolls no longer use Chrome bumpers but steel covered with composite material and there is NO chrome as the wheels are billet as are the interior handles so if you use them as and example your wrong and will be pointed out by someone who might be a car buff. 
Also I never said chrome was not a good plating just that it's not as marketable as Rhodium or Titanium. and the plating on Harley is much thicker plate but your right it is chrome.


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## kovalcik (Aug 30, 2013)

I think you have to realize there are at least 2 different markets we cater to. One is the pen aficionado who is going to pay more money if you say words like rhodium and titanium. They want to know all the details and are willing to pay for better quality and materials. They will add it to their collection and treat it with care and keep it for a long time, so are willing to pay a premium price.

The other group is the "ooooh, pretty!" market who want something that looks nice and impressive, don't really care about what it is made from, and are not willing to pay for rhodium if chrome looks just as good. They also realize that, at some point, they will probably lose it which also makes them shy away from a very high price tag. 

My market is largely the second group. If I only stocked pens for the first group, it would not be worth my time to do the shows I do. Having the lower priced tier is necessary for the shows I choose to do which are shows that benefit our local school music programs. 

YM(arkets)MV


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## ed4copies (Aug 30, 2013)

"_The side feature line runs along the car from the rear wheel arch in  parallel with the low roof, down to its __hand-fitted chrome front grille!_"

Sorry Roy, I ALWAYS do research before making a statement!!

Source document here:
Bentley Motors Website : Models : New Flying Spur : Exterior Design


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## Dan Hintz (Aug 30, 2013)

ed4copies said:


> If I ran into you at a show and you used that line, I would simply ask the customer if he thinks the design teams at Bentley, Cadillac and Harley have not already evaluated the profit potential of YOUR idea.  Their designers are paid millions---if you have ideas they have missed, might want to apply for a job---I suspect it will pay MUCH BETTER than art shows!!:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:





kovalcik said:


> I think you have to realize there are at least 2 different markets we cater to. One is the pen aficionado who is going to pay more money if you say words like rhodium and titanium. They want to know all the details and are willing to pay for better quality and materials. They will add it to their collection and treat it with care and keep it for a long time, so are willing to pay a premium price.


kovalcik is where I'm pointing to (we could also add in Barnum's "a sucker is born every minute").  If you offer an expensive option that is not common, plenty of people will line up to be the first and/or only to have it.  I wouldn't push it in that manner to someone who's looking at a $100 pen, but I might use it if I think someone just has money to burn.


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## Donnie Kennedy (Aug 30, 2013)

OKLAHOMAN said:


> Donnie, please take this as just my opinion and not to demean lower end pens. . Why would you want to down grade your inventory with less expensive product. There is nothing wrong with chrome  other then when talking to customers and you've talked to them about the plating on your higher end pens and the benifits of Rhodium, Titanium  and now you tell them they can get a pen in chrome (plated just like the $4.95 papermate they can get at Wally world). Instead why not have lower end blanks for your less expensive pens but keep the plating as a selling point. When customers hear chrome they don't think long wearing they think of their Dads peeling bumper on his old car. Yes I will agree that today's chrome is OK it's just not a good talking point.



Roy, I have a strange situation in my location. I sell a lot of pens for more than other pen makers (if there were any) would get in this area because of networking... for example, my land lady owns a high end beauty salon so that generates a lot of sales, BUT I am also missing more sales because I can't lower my price. It's a matter of what the market will bear, so I have to split the market into 2 segments.

I harvest or trade for 90% of the blanks I use, so I can't lower my overall cost with them. My only option is to use less expensive kits. Using my pricing formula, a chrome Sierra kit would end up retailing for about $13 less than the same kit in Platinum, and that puts me into a whole other market.


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## CharlesJohnson (Aug 31, 2013)

If in a high end market only, I would stay with the higher cost pen sets.  But I enjoy the time spent with the lower end customer as much as the high end customer.  And I feel sure their are many more lower end folks than higher end folks.  And I wouldn't want to tell either I don't care for them.  But of course this doesn't have to pay my bills.  I do have a lot of fun. Plus extra!!


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## OKLAHOMAN (Aug 31, 2013)

Ed as you know we all sometimes go on the information that we either read or were told and about 6 months ago I had read in the Haggarty classic insurance  Magazine I get that Bentley was using dark tinted aluminum as their garish moldings and billet as their grills,with composite bumpers, seems it was only on their higher end "Speed Continental series models , so yes my Statement was wrong, that will teach me to use blanket statements. 




ed4copies said:


> "_The side feature line runs along the car from the rear wheel arch in parallel with the low roof, down to its __hand-fitted chrome front grille!_"
> 
> Sorry Roy, I ALWAYS do research before making a statement!!
> 
> ...


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## Smitty37 (Aug 31, 2013)

Dan Hintz said:


> ed4copies said:
> 
> 
> > Counterpoint:
> ...


I'd take that bet Dan.  Everybody is NOT selling to high end collectors that might 'think' that Rhodium will make a big difference in the pen.  I think a typical buyer: 1) Is buying a gift for someone who probably doesn't know what Rhodium or Titanium is.  2) Would be far more impressed if you said 'platinum' (they've at least heard of that) rather than Rhodium.

Rhodium might be a selling point in some venues but certainly not in all venues.  It doesn't (in my opinion) make enough difference in either looks or wearability to justify it's price.


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## Smitty37 (Aug 31, 2013)

BSea said:


> I think chrome is a good option, along with upgrade gold. I have to disagree with AlexG on the 24K gold. *My wife has a gold euro that she keeps in her purse. After a year, it looks pretty bad. Same thing with a gunmetal sierra. *
> 
> I made myself a keyring with chrome. It's showing brass after being in my pocket for almost 3 years. But I'd think a keyring would get much more abuse than a pen.


I'm not sure anything could stand up to a tour of duty in my wife's purse.  Even Zippo lighters canceled their warranty when they heard she was putting hers in her purse.


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## Dan Hintz (Aug 31, 2013)

Smitty37 said:


> I'd take that bet Dan.  Everybody is NOT selling to high end collectors that might 'think' that Rhodium will make a big difference in the pen.  I think a typical buyer: 1) Is buying a gift for someone who probably doesn't know what Rhodium or Titanium is.  2) Would be far more impressed if you said 'platinum' (they've at least heard of that) rather than Rhodium.
> 
> Rhodium might be a selling point in some venues but certainly not in all venues.  It doesn't (in my opinion) make enough difference in either looks or wearability to justify it's price.



I'm not saying everybody will line up, just that there will always be plenty of people willing to part with extra money to be the cool kid on the block.  Even if they don't understand why it does (not) really make them cool.


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## Smitty37 (Aug 31, 2013)

Dan Hintz said:


> I'm not saying everybody will line up, just that there will always be plenty of people willing to part with extra money to be the cool kid on the block. Even if they don't understand why it does (not) really make them cool.


 My point is this. Most people wouldn't even know which is "cool".  They need to take the seller's word for it.


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## fernhills (Sep 1, 2013)

Nobody ever said to me, hey! you got any titanium under there.. Carl


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## Dan Hintz (Sep 1, 2013)

fernhills said:


> Nobody ever said to me, hey! you got any titanium under there.. Carl


Ever been to a "car enthusiast" (i.e., teenager) meet?  If you don't have carbon fiber, you're car is slow.  They have no idea what about carbon fiber makes a car fast other than really expensive cars often use it, but they know they want it, and they're willing to spend the money on it.  They'll pay $4k for a wet carbon fiber hood that weighs more than what they had on the car because it's carbon fiber.  Of course, you really need to pay $8k for a dry carbon fiber hood if you want to save weight, but hey. it's CF, so who cares, right?  And that's one of many examples I could use.


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## avbill (Sep 1, 2013)

i did a small research study about plating. I elected to go through a process of 1 through 5  points.  5 being the best finish   this is my results:

gold  plating
titanium gold  = 4.66 
10kt gold        =  3.0
up-graded gold  = 2.0 
24kt gold        =  1.5 

Chrome plating
Platinum      =  4.75
Rhodium      =  4.5
Sterling Silver = 4.0
Chrome          = 3.83
silver plating   = 3.83*
satin chrome   = 3.16
Satin Nickel     = 2.0 

Black Chrome plating 
Black Titanium  = 5.0
Gun Metal        = 3.3
Black Chrome   =  2.33
black enamel    =  2.25


I did this research  so could find out what was the hardest  finish. most durable.  I needed to know what finish  would be the less problem.   Anything under 3.0  I don't use period.  I have  replaced the finishes on several other turners pens.  I have created new customers for it!

hope this  helps


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## OKLAHOMAN (Sep 1, 2013)

Me either, but I ALWAYS somewhere in the sales pitch will tell them :biggrin:





fernhills said:


> Nobody ever said to me, hey! you got any titanium under there.. Carl


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## Smitty37 (Sep 1, 2013)

Dan Hintz said:


> fernhills said:
> 
> 
> > Nobody ever said to me, hey! you got any titanium under there.. Carl
> ...


 
I have a fairly large "hot rod" show (about 250 - 300 cars) about a mile from my house every fall.  And I can say confidently that if there are more than 2 or 3 teenagers there with cars it would be a lot.  There are people there willing and able to spend a lot of money on hobby cars, but they aren't teenagers. 

So while I don't know where there are many teenaged car enthuiasts any more (lots more when I was young and having a car was a big deal) you are still saying "it makes the car go faster."  When I was a young man and teens populated the drag strips, that you need to be rich to compete at now, that would have been a selling point but even today when teenagers have lots of money to spend - you could easily go broke waiting for kids who have $4000 to $8000 to spend on making their car go faster .

Also you can't say anything similar to "it makes the car go faster" about Rhodium - it doesn't make the pen write better - it really doesn't even make the pen look better and under normal use it won't really last longer.

.


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## edstreet (Sep 3, 2013)

ed4copies said:


> One clarification, please Bob.
> 
> Berea JUST started offering the sierra in gunmetal about 2 months ago.  So, although your pen IS a SIERRA---it is NOT a BEREA SIERRA.
> 
> ...





OKLAHOMAN said:


> Me either, but I ALWAYS somewhere in the sales pitch will tell them :biggrin:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Speaking of sales pitches and 'gun metal'  The truth about the 'gun metal' finishes is that they are *NOT* using true 'gun metal', 4140/4150.  The 'look' is *NOT* even remotely close to 'gun metal' which correctly would be blue and/or parkerizing.

I suppose one could theorize that the term came about to capture one market like with gold/painted and the rhodium/chrome.


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## Smitty37 (Sep 3, 2013)

edstreet said:


> *Speaking of sales pitches and 'gun metal' The truth about the 'gun metal' finishes is that they are *NOT* using true 'gun metal',* 4140/4150. The 'look' is *NOT* even remotely close to 'gun metal' which correctly would be blue and/or parkerizing.
> 
> *I suppose one could theorize that the term came about to capture one market like with gold/painted and the rhodium/chrome*.


*Frankly, I have never heard of bluing or parkerizing on guns called "gun metal" but military arms have (or used to have) a finish that had a flat and more grayish look than sporting arms.*

*I think it more likely that it is derived from 'gun metal gray' which is an automotive metalic paint color that the color of gun metal finish resembles..*


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## edstreet (Sep 3, 2013)

Smitty37 said:


> edstreet said:
> 
> 
> > *Speaking of sales pitches and 'gun metal' The truth about the 'gun metal' finishes is that they are *NOT* using true 'gun metal',* 4140/4150. The 'look' is *NOT* even remotely close to 'gun metal' which correctly would be blue and/or parkerizing.
> ...



WW2 park vs post war park is different in chemicals used.  Both types are Phosphate based but post WW2 era used manganese in the mix.  There are 4 basic color, none of which is even remotely close to the 'gun metal' colors.  It is also a matte finish, unlike the 'gun metal' finish.

Even traditional blue is not even close, nor is the exotic blue mixes.

Perhaps I should do some shots of 'gun metal' pens next to real firearms for compare.


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## Smitty37 (Sep 3, 2013)

Why not google on "gun metal gray" and see what the auto paint color is. That will probably tell you more about how gun metal as a finish got it's name.





edstreet said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > edstreet said:
> ...


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## edstreet (Sep 3, 2013)

Smitty37 said:


> Why not google on "gun metal gray" and see what the auto paint color is. That will probably tell you more about how gun metal as a finish got it's name.



So you are claiming that 'gun metal' plating is paint?


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## Smitty37 (Sep 3, 2013)

edstreet said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > Why not google on "gun metal gray" and see what the auto paint color is. That will probably tell you more about how gun metal as a finish got it's name.
> ...


 We both know better than that, so why do you ask?


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## edstreet (Sep 3, 2013)

Smitty37 said:


> edstreet said:
> 
> 
> > Smitty37 said:
> ...



Because you keep bringing up auto paint. If it is indeed reflective of auto paint then therefor likely that paint is used, i.e. enamel.

But the real questions is this.  
*) Is there any series that offers gun metal *AND* black titanium?  
*) Does anyone know what process is used to make the gun metal plating?


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## Dan Hintz (Sep 3, 2013)

Smitty37 said:


> *I think it more likely that it is derived from 'gun metal gray' which is an automotive metalic paint color that the color of gun metal finish resembles..*


Agreed.  I have always considered any mention of "gun metal" to give an idea of color, not plating material/method.

Door knobs, faucets, railings... all kinds of household products listing "gun metal" in their description.  Never once did I stop to wonder if these things were being plated or made in the same manner as a weapon.


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## Smitty37 (Sep 3, 2013)

edstreet said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > edstreet said:
> ...


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## edstreet (Sep 3, 2013)

Smitty37 said:


> *There are several that offer both.  I think you can easily find Sierra Style kits offering both.*
> 
> *I have read that it is a Black Nickel alloy (it is not enamel)but have never asked my supplier about the formula.  The plating process is probably the same as for most finishes.  My supplier says they use the same process for all finishes except for the Titaniums, Rhodium and the enamels and some of their antique finishes.*



So same manufacture, same kit offered in Black Ti AND gun metal?  With sierra's there are more than one manufacture of them and one may call it 'black Ti' while another may call it 'gun metal'


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## Smitty37 (Sep 3, 2013)

edstreet said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > *There are several that offer both. I think you can easily find Sierra Style kits offering both.*
> ...


 I don't think that is.  Black TI is a ceramic plating and gun metal is metal plating.  There is enough difference in the color that people would notice.  I personally think Black TI has a considerably more flat look and gun metal a brighter look.  BTW I can get all series kits from the same manufacturer in either finish if I want them.


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## edstreet (Sep 3, 2013)

Smitty37 said:


> I don't think that is.  Black TI is a ceramic plating and gun metal is metal plating.  There is enough difference in the color that people would notice.  I personally think Black TI has a considerably more flat look and gun metal a brighter look.  BTW I can get all series kits from the same manufacturer in either finish if I want them.




It would appear that I may have been under some false impressions from incorrect/bad information etc about the two.  It was more they were identical and more marketing than anything else.  From what you just said it is more metal vs ceramic.


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## avbill (Sep 3, 2013)

why has this subject about plating turned into  hot rods!


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## Dan Hintz (Sep 3, 2013)

avbill said:


> why has this subject about plating turned into  hot rods!


Did you remember to change the oil in your Gent Jr.?


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## Smitty37 (Sep 3, 2013)

edstreet said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > I don't think that is. Black TI is a ceramic plating and gun metal is metal plating. There is enough difference in the color that people would notice. I personally think Black TI has a considerably more flat look and gun metal a brighter look. BTW I can get all series kits from the same manufacturer in either finish if I want them.
> ...


 That's right.  

Black TI (which I used on my original Le Roi kits) was actually available in both black and the gray seen now.  My supplier stopped doing it in black so I switched to black chrome.  My supplier switched because getting the black color caused problems (cracks in the plating) they couldn't overcome.

PSI had a slimline that was black titanium and was black they now offer that kit in black enamel but have the standard black TI also.  They don't offer GM in that line of slims but they do in their funlines where they don't offer either TI.


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