# High End Kits



## keithkarl2007 (Oct 2, 2010)

Are all of our high end kits slowly disappearing? Been browsing through all the vendors and can't find the kit i want in the right plating. It was going to be my own personal pen but in carrying it would probably get some interest in them. I guess the regular suppliers won't be restocking them. 
After looking here i was wondering if it would be possible to buy directly from them and if the regular vendors ever had kits damaged from shipping?


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## Ankrom Exotics (Oct 2, 2010)

My main question is why does it take 3-4 weeks for them to ship after payment is received?


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## witz1976 (Oct 2, 2010)

Ankrom Exotics said:


> My main question is why does it take 3-4 weeks for them to ship after payment is received?



Perhaps they only make the product when the order is received?


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## keithkarl2007 (Oct 2, 2010)

Or maybe they want the money in their pockets before sending anything


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## ed4copies (Oct 2, 2010)

3-4 weeks is what they QUOTE.

What will you do if it's SIX weeks----or never!!  International, they have your money----good luck with that.


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## arw01 (Oct 2, 2010)

Is that really THE Dayacom that makes a lot of the pen kits every vendor resells?

Ask Aaron at Lau Lau, he buys in large enough quantities from them and would know the legit site.  They USED to require 1000 pc quanties, seems suspect they are down to 30 at a time now!


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## ldb2000 (Oct 2, 2010)

arw01 said:


> Is that really THE Dayacom that makes a lot of the pen kits every vendor resells?
> 
> Ask Aaron at Lau Lau, he buys in large enough quantities from them and would know the legit site. They USED to require 1000 pc quanties, seems suspect they are down to 30 at a time now!


 
It is THE Dayacom , they are going to start selling direct . There have been several threads here about it in the past couple of months . They will have a minimum order of 30 kits and shipping will be included in the price . Search the forum for more info .


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## ed4copies (Oct 2, 2010)

But we don't know if they will start manufacturing when they get an ORDER, or when they have 500 ordered, which they have always said they NEED to start production.  Have THEIR needs changed???  Or are YOU going to wait for them to decide it is time to make the 500 run?  

We DO know they will take your money, right away!!

(I would recommend you buy them from the Australian suppliers---seems more "predictable" to me.)


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## Smitty37 (Oct 2, 2010)

ed4copies said:


> 3-4 weeks is what they QUOTE.
> 
> What will you do if it's SIX weeks----or never!! International, they have your money----good luck with that.


 
Pay with PayPal and the buyer can recover the payment if they don't deliver, just as they can from you or me if we don't deliver and they paid with paypal.


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## Smitty37 (Oct 2, 2010)

*Shipping*

I suspect the prices on 30 and 50 piece orders are a lot higher than 500....you can probably check that out.  

Three to four weeks to ship...that tells me they are not shipping from stock, but does not seem long enough to be starting production from scratch and 30 to 50 would not be an economic quantity for production... unless -- they have set up a vendor to produce specifically in small job shop quantities.  They might very well be buying from someone else and reshipping.


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## jttheclockman (Oct 3, 2010)

ed4copies said:


> But we don't know if they will start manufacturing when they get an ORDER, or when they have 500 ordered, which they have always said they NEED to start production. Have THEIR needs changed??? Or are YOU going to wait for them to decide it is time to make the 500 run?
> 
> We DO know they will take your money, right away!!
> 
> (I would recommend you buy them from the Australian suppliers---seems more "predictable" to me.)


 

Boy Ed you really have something against this company from all the responses I read about this on all the threads.   If these are the same people selling to the other vendors than why not spread their wings and offer to a more populated venue which is us. Now I have not sat down and did the calculating but maybe it is better to order from one of the established vendors or maybe you could cut out the middle man and save a few dollars. When you are talking about these highends kits that are tough to purchase because of price. They also have kits that we do not even get a chance to buy because no vendor carries them. There was talk of a group buy and maybe that would be something in the future that we all could share in.

I am sure you have alot more experience ordering from companies overseas than I. So I am just stating an observation from your posts so please don't read any more into it:biggrin:


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## hilltopper46 (Oct 3, 2010)

jttheclockman said:


> ...If these are the same people selling to the other vendors than why not spread their wings and offer to a more populated venue which is us. ...



I have no facts to prove this but I do not believe the people on this forum constitute the vast majority of pen turners. The people that I know in this area in no way supports the stock of pen making supplies that the local Woodcraft and Rocklers carry, and that does not include those of us who never buy from them.


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## alphageek (Oct 3, 2010)

jttheclockman said:


> ed4copies said:
> 
> 
> > But we don't know if they will start manufacturing when they get an ORDER, or when they have 500 ordered, which they have always said they NEED to start production. Have THEIR needs changed??? Or are YOU going to wait for them to decide it is time to make the 500 run?
> ...



JT ...  I've talked to Ed quite a bit... And what I believe he is warning you about is this:

You can cut out the middleman if you'd like..  and yes, if you do you also cut out all the risk that that middleman has taken for you too - things like:
- Delays
- Quality concerns
- Replacement parts
- Etc...  

So each person has to decide if the reduced price is worth it.   I'd also like to note that he didn't say "come buy from me" but rather go to another vendor if you'd like for those.   That should tell you something.   There is some experience talking and its a really nice thing to say so - not many vendors would give us the 'lowdown' of real experiences like this.

I am very curious to see who is the first to order a small qty like this and give some real feedback to their results.


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## ed4copies (Oct 3, 2010)

JT,

Let me keep this very short and to the point---I state my "reservations" openly, knowing that the vendors overseas can see it too.

I HOPE it will motivate them to a better plan.

I am intriqued by Smitty's suggestion, since the transaction (ONE) I had with a Chinese vendor requested payment by PayPal's "friends and family" program, avoiding their percentage (which I consider unethical).  As I analyze that, I would guess it also voids the protections to which Smitty refers----NOW I understand!!!!

Yes, I am VERY cautious, but I do deal in much larger numbers than the average penmaker.  So, you are welcome to send them your money and say your prayers.


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## jttheclockman (Oct 3, 2010)

hilltopper46 said:


> jttheclockman said:
> 
> 
> > ...If these are the same people selling to the other vendors than why not spread their wings and offer to a more populated venue which is us. ...
> ...


 

Tony

I am sorry I do not follow what you are saying. Could you explain abit more???

Woodcraft and Rockler are just other resellers. By "us" I mean the small one or two kit buyer guy. Not the 1000 kit buyer guy.


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## bitshird (Oct 3, 2010)

Keith, I would be willing to invest in 5 or so if we could get a group by situation, Dayacom is dropping their minimum orders since they are not selling as many of their high end pens through CSUSA any longer, but I sure would like to have a few Emperors and Jr Emperors for stock, I just can't afford 30 or 50, but like Ed has said these shipping times could be a optimistic statement, and I would suspect that on many of the high end kits they have some in stock or can call the parts in since most are made in different factories/ back porches. but I sure would like to give it a go if someone would take the lead, I would even do that but I'm strapped with my Woodchuck sales, and that's getting to be a 10 to 12 hour a day job. (so much for a peaceful retirement)


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## hilltopper46 (Oct 3, 2010)

jttheclockman said:


> hilltopper46 said:
> 
> 
> > jttheclockman said:
> ...



I might be the one who misunderstood here, but what I thought your meaning was that they would be selling to a much wider audience by selling into IAP than selling through their (Dyacom's) traditional resellers. I thought about adding a disclaimer to my original post about "If I have misunderstood what you are trying to say, please forgive me" but it required a lot more typing to do so. :wink:

I don't think selling into (or through) IAP will increase Dyacom's total sales by much, if any.   In the long run, it could 1) reduce the overall number of pen kits available and 2) increase prices, because the of the reduced volume the current suppliers would experience.  That reduced volume could make the existing suppliers reduce their offerings or stop carrying pen supplies altogether because the potential profit drops too much.

Again, if I have missed your point and started this thread off on another rabbit track, I apologize.


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## keithkarl2007 (Oct 3, 2010)

Has anyone contacted CSUSA to find out why they have discontinued them?


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## JerrySambrook (Oct 3, 2010)

Smitty,
    As for using Paypals recovery process, the party may not get the money back, depending on how the vendor answered certain questions. This I know thru experience.

As for why does CSUSA drop items? Simply because the items are not being sold at a reasonably fast enough rate for them to keep it in stock.
It took then over three years to get rid of 100 pens of a certain style, but when they made the motion to discontinue the pens, we here got up in arms about them discontinuing.  And this has been said during discussions with them.


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## Smitty37 (Oct 3, 2010)

*Small Fry*

Perhaps they noticed a change or changes in the market place. 

1) *Some companies they have traditionally sold to sending their kits to be copied by low cost suppliers.*  I am dead certain that both CSUSA and PSI are buying at least some kits from Rizheng...either might deny it but a lot of their labels now say "Made in China" 

2)*500 MOQ on $35.00 wholesale kits is a big piece of change for even what we call the "big" guys.*  Particularily if they aren't especially fast moving items.  Selling 10 a week would take a year to go through 500 kits and nobody likes a year rollover on inventory.

3) *Competitive pressure from the Chinese who have been offering retail quantities for at least 2 years.*  There is an old axiom that says watch what the competition is doing...and the Chinese are selling retail, not just to the USA but all over the world.

Ed might very well be right on the PayPal statement, I don't know for sure that you lose protection by calling it personal, but if you are uncomfortable calling it personal....the Chinese will accept commercial but will charge you about 4% more to cover additional PayPal charges.


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## chrisk (Oct 3, 2010)

Sorry to disturb this thread but maybe we should give a try to a small... comparison between the Dayacom link given above (http://www.dayacom.com.tw/daya_brand.php?m=catalog) and CSUSA.
Respectively, they sell the JR Emperor Fountain pen with Rhodium + 22k Gold @ US $ 54.00/pc × 30 pcs; CSUSA sells the same kit @ $US 54,99 with a 15% rebate for 20-49 kits. That means you'll pay $US46,75 a kit with CSUSA...

Sorry again but where is the benefit????


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## DurocShark (Oct 3, 2010)

Smitty37 said:


> ....the Chinese will accept commercial but will charge you about 4% more to cover additional PayPal charges.



Which is still against PayPal's TOS.


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## Smitty37 (Oct 3, 2010)

*Almost Total agreement*



ed4copies said:


> JT,
> 
> Let me keep this very short and to the point---I state my "reservations" openly, knowing that the vendors overseas can see it too.
> 
> ...


 
To be fair...the chinese will accept regular paypal payment BUT they will charge more if you pay that way.

But, Ed is totally accurate when he voices concerns about the average guy dealing directly with an overseas vendor.  You better understand the risk(s).  

A group buy might work, if there is someone here who is willing to take on the chore of handling up to $10,000/$20,000 of other peoples money and a lot of work at no profit..... 50 guys each buying just 5 $50 kits is $12,500 plus domestic shipping.


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## keithkarl2007 (Oct 3, 2010)

So what would be the most popular kit and plating? Emperor, Jr  Emperor, Lotus, Imperial, fountain or rollerball?


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## ldb2000 (Oct 3, 2010)

My guess is that the most popular higher end kit would be the Jr Gent II in either Gold or Ti Gold due to a good price and kit quality .


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## keithkarl2007 (Oct 3, 2010)

ldb2000 said:


> My guess is that the most popular higher end kit would be the Jr Gent II in either Gold or Ti Gold due to a good price and kit quality .



From the above kits, Emperor, Lotus or Imperial?


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## ldb2000 (Oct 3, 2010)

Just those 3 ?   Emperor . I always liked the Lotus best but I think the Emperors are more popular .


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## keithkarl2007 (Oct 3, 2010)

Yeah, specially for rare woods. I've been trying to decide what to put Bog Oak Burl on and I liked the look of the Emperor's and Imperial's. The Lotus kits look a bit overkill at the centre when assembled.


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## jttheclockman (Oct 3, 2010)

hilltopper46 said:


> jttheclockman said:
> 
> 
> > hilltopper46 said:
> ...


 

I got what you are saying. My point is they right now were selling to a select few who could handle the volume that the company wanted to see. Not many dealers can lay out that kind of cash. With the economy the way it is I bet their sales are down because lets face it that is big money for a kit that will now demand a high resale price on our part. ( Again I am speaking as a pen turner not an IAP member per-se) I have said this many times here we as IAP members are a mere small portion of pen turners throughout the world. 

With their decrease in sale to large companies it may be apperent to them if they sell at a smaller amount demand they can make up for the lost sales to big companies and still supply our desire for the kits. If we continue to see companies like CSUSA drop the expensive line because of slow sales where will we get them.  Maybe I am being a little too optimistic and would like to see this happen to keep those kits around and offered to the small pen turner at a resonable price.

Not sure if I am making sense any more now either.


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## jttheclockman (Oct 3, 2010)

chrisk said:


> Sorry to disturb this thread but maybe we should give a try to a small... comparison between the Dayacom link given above (http://www.dayacom.com.tw/daya_brand.php?m=catalog) and CSUSA.
> Respectively, they sell the JR Emperor Fountain pen with Rhodium + 22k Gold @ US $ 54.00/pc × 30 pcs; CSUSA sells the same kit @ $US 54,99 with a 15% rebate for 20-49 kits. That means you'll pay $US46,75 a kit with CSUSA...
> 
> Sorry again but where is the benefit????


 

The problem with this thinking it is one highend kit. ( Aren't these going away also) There are others that in my opinion are better looking and are just tough to get. Yes the shipping cost is a huge factor and I do understan Ed's point on reliability and being able to return and the other factors that he mentioned. Just think there needs to be an avenue to aquire some of these kits. Maybe wishful thinking on my part.


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## Smitty37 (Oct 4, 2010)

*True but......*



JerrySambrook said:


> Smitty,
> As for using Paypals recovery process, the party may not get the money back, depending on how the vendor answered certain questions. This I know thru experience.


 
If the buyer signed for delivery, recovery can indeed be difficult but if they didn't deliver at all you have a pretty good case.


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## Smitty37 (Oct 4, 2010)

*Indeed it is*



DurocShark said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > ....the Chinese will accept commercial but will charge you about 4% more to cover additional PayPal charges.
> ...


 
Absolutely true. Yet, like the personal use policy it is difficult to enforce. 

Generally speaking it is also against policy of Credit card issuers (or it used to be) for sellers to charge a higher price for accepting credit card payment, but recently I have been seeing Gas Stations with different prices posted for credit card and non-credit card transactions...actually posting on their signs the non-credit card price and surprising you with the credit card price when you pull in.


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## jttheclockman (Oct 4, 2010)

Smitty37 said:


> DurocShark said:
> 
> 
> > Smitty37 said:
> ...


 
This happens in NJ all the time. It is the norm here.


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## DurocShark (Oct 4, 2010)

I remember there was a time when every retailer did that. Like in the 80's. But I haven't seen credit card surcharges in years. Maybe in California and Colorado it doesn't happen?


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## ed4copies (Oct 4, 2010)

Credit card agreements typically do not allow you to ADD for credit card fees.  You CAN allow CASH discounts.

So, post your price with credit card fees included, then discount to cash customers.


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## hilltopper46 (Oct 4, 2010)

1. Please don't take this as an argument

2. This sounds good, but in my venue, the first impression is of the priced item.  There is nothing worse than a person who deliberates over a $5 key ring, then after you have talked her into it hands you the card and says (with a bright smile), "here, I' saving my points for ________(fill in the blank)." She wouldn't have even looked at it if it had been a $10 key ring (or prolly even a $7.50 key ring).

3. This is kinda off topic for this post, but I would like to see it explored further in a dedicated post. How bad will I get beat up if I change my credit card sign to read "Cheerfully accepted for sales over $20.00."



ed4copies said:


> Credit card agreements typically do not allow you to ADD for credit card fees.  You CAN allow CASH discounts.
> 
> So, post your price with credit card fees included, then discount to cash customers.


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## Russianwolf (Oct 4, 2010)

hilltopper46 said:


> 1. Please don't take this as an argument
> 
> 2. This sounds good, but in my venue, the first impression is of the priced item.  There is nothing worse than a person who deliberates over a $5 key ring, then after you have talked her into it hands you the card and says (with a bright smile), "here, I' saving my points for ________(fill in the blank)." She wouldn't have even looked at it if it had been a $10 key ring (or prolly even a $7.50 key ring).
> 
> ...


1) why not, I like arguing. Just ask my wife. :tongue:

2) What do you think would happen if you have a sign that says "10% discount for cash purchases" prominently displayed? Would the $5 keychain still get attention if it was priced $5.50?

3) You won't get beat up, just walked by by more people.


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## ed4copies (Oct 4, 2010)

Tony,

Welcome to the world of craft shows---Dawn and I commisserated OFTEN about that lady you had.  Then, when you get your credit card statement, she is on a special plan and YOU get charged MORE for her than most---YOU are paying for her special plan, as you credit card agreement says you MUST!!

NO you cannot put up your $20 sign!!!  Violates your terms with MC and Visa.  

We tried the "Welcome for payments over $20" and had FEW who objected.  My fear was always that we are such small potatoes, MC would use Dawn as an example--which would just about shut down our booth.

They (MC and Visa) have trained people not to carry cash--unless your venue has a "cash machine" you are out of luck---we never found a good solution to this issue.


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## jttheclockman (Oct 4, 2010)

ed4copies said:


> Credit card agreements typically do not allow you to ADD for credit card fees. You CAN allow CASH discounts.
> 
> So, post your price with credit card fees included, then discount to cash customers.


 

I am guessing this is how this is allowed then. I pay cash anyway.


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## ed4copies (Oct 4, 2010)

Also, MC is unlikely to "cut off" Shell oil---they do a few more dollars than "the Glass Lass" did.


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## Smitty37 (Oct 4, 2010)

*Big Guys*

Well the gas stations were advertising their cash price.  But I doubt that the credit card companies would have much incentive to do anything about it if I bothered to complain.

I was thinking that state laws might be trumping MC/Visa T&Cs.  I've also thought that the Chinese who are pretty blatant about dodging PayPal fees might have local law on their side.  The credit card companies must comply with the law in every nation where they operate and the rules can vary from country to country.  Small and Poor countries might need to adjust their laws to suit the credit card companies but larger, richer nations will not.

I'd also be surprised if places like Wal-Mart and Target don't have their own negotiated terms and conditions and not just lower fees...my guess is they have fewer hoops to jump through as well.  I know that when IBM gave most of their employees Carte Blanche and American Express cards a long time ago we did not have the same T&Cs as the general public.


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## OldReg (Jan 3, 2011)

ed4copies said:


> Also, MC is unlikely to "cut off" Shell oil---they do a few more dollars than "the Glass Lass" did.



What is The Glass Lass? I got a charge on my credit card from them and I don't remember going to "The Glass Lass"


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## wood-of-1kind (Jan 3, 2011)

OldReg said:


> ed4copies said:
> 
> 
> > Also, MC is unlikely to "cut off" Shell oil---they do a few more dollars than "the Glass Lass" did.
> ...




It's an 'affectionate' name for Dawn (PR Princess) if I'm not mistaken.


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## Dudley Young (Jan 3, 2011)

What I can't understand is:
1- Dayacom has lowered their minimum. That means they are not selling many.
2- That means the venders are not buying many because the pen turners are not buying them.
3- The turners are buying them because they are not selling.
4- My question is, WHY DO YOU WANT ANY OF THEM???


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## ed4copies (Jan 3, 2011)

I suspect that, for a hand-full of guys who have positioned the pens properly and have the right market, these pens are VERY profitable, even at $70 to buy them.

Unfortunately, there are not enough of this type of penmaker to justify FOUR pen bodies and RB and FTN, a total of EIGHT configurations (this ignores PSI's and Bereas, just CSUSA) then, in two platings, makes 16 configurations!!

If you all adopted ONE body, ONE plating, you'd have eight times as many people and the buy would be much easier----but, trust me, that won't happen!!!


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## jttheclockman (Jan 3, 2011)

Dudley Young said:


> What I can't understand is:
> 1- Dayacom has lowered their minimum. That means they are not selling many.
> 2- That means the venders are not buying many because the pen turners are not buying them.
> 3- The turners are buying them because they are not selling.
> 4- My question is, WHY DO YOU WANT ANY OF THEM???


 

Dudley

There are those that would like to take their pen turning to the next level instead of being stuck in a rut with the same old kits. There are some such as myself that have never done any of these $70 kits because they are or were out of my price range and did not think I had a market. But as I go through this hobby I have improved and want to try that next step. You can't be afraid to fail. The worst case scenerio is that they sit on the display shelf forever and become my props for other sales. As someone said that $300 pen makes that $100 pen look like a better deal. 

Some people find all that extra bling is distractive. I happen to like some of these kits and would be proud to own one and use it and show it off. My biggest concerns when buying these kits and I have expressed this with some of the mid priced kits also that the components and platings stand the test of time and are not just all show. That would annoy the hell out of me and does. When someone has to improvise a method to keep caps from unscrewing and other things is annoying. That can ruin ones reputation and your back to selling $25 slimlines again. 

If there is a chance to have a group buy and take advantage of numbers then why not. This is a penturning site and we should be able to get some kind of discounts. Sites like this is where it all starts and has helped launch these so called ellite companies. I hope somewhere down the road that a special discount is available to all IAP members to be used at any of the dealers. Ed has taken on some of Berea kits and offers discounts throughout the year. But I would like to see a discount program that is standard for this site. Until anything like that happens then we have to try to take advantage of any deals that come along. That is why we buy. My 2¢


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## JerrySambrook (Jan 3, 2011)

jttheclockman said:


> The worst case scenerio is that they sit on the display shelf forever and become my props for other sales. As someone said that $300 pen makes that $100 pen look like a better deal.



John is absolutely spot-on with this comment.
I did not believe it either, but then brought two pens, (as the vendor I go through wants two of each style) that were $250.00 each.
Suddenly, all of the midprice (65-100) that were the high end pens before and were not sell, were going good.
I used to think that was a bunk myth, but I absolutely agree with it now

Jerry


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