# Scroll chucks versus Collets



## skiprat (Jan 13, 2010)

First off, I really don't want to start a fight and I absolutely agree that, all things being equal, collets are infinately more accurate than any type of scroll chuck. 
But......let's discuss the merits of each before we decide what is best for each of us and also before we tell someone that they really need collets if they want a round pen. Some people really don't have a lot of money and often need tooling that can perform more than one function.

I don't have collets but I am saving to get a set for my metal lathe. But we are generally talking about using them on wood lathes.

My scroll chuck came with two sets of jaws. One set is still in the box as I rarely turn stuff that require them. The pin jaws have been in it since I got it. 
I just did a test.... I removed the jaws and lightly clamped a transfer punch in the chuck just with the jaw holders ( is there a proper name for them? ) I don't have a proper Test Rod
I mounted a dial indicator and was very impressed with the result.
I got a difference of 0.06mm ( 0.002 in ? ) Now that isn't bad by any standards.
Now I replaced the jaws making sure the numbers on them matched.
Mmmm...0.26mm ( 0.010 in ? ) Pretty poor by machine standards and if that was on a metal lathe, I'd be worried.
But lets think about that for a minute. Just how much *IS* 0.26mm? 
And let's not forget that the actual 'out of round' is half that. So how much is 0.13mm? I hunted around to find something that we all are familiar with.....a sheet of paper from my printer. Bang on almost at 0.14mm.
Now as John so clearly showed in his great video, if the blanks isn't squared perfectly to the tube then it will be out of round. Can you really get that accurate with a pen mill? Home made sander jig? MMmmmm

I took a pic of my jaws and I'm sure you will agree that they are not pretty and have had a lot of abuse.  But I will dress them up with a Dremel this weekend for sure. I will use my metal lathe to do this, but there are methods on the web that show you how.

My wood lathe is the worst type in the world.....a pipe lathe. This is the type that has a a round tube as the bed and the tailstock can swivel from 11 to 1 oclock position without a problem. ( cool if you need a nice taper:redface: ) So you can see that it would be a complete waste to fit a precision collet chuck to this lathe. 

But I have also yet to see *any *wood lathe where the tailstock can travel and remain perfectly aligned to the headstock. To get any benifit from collets, the TS must always be equally or better accuracy than the headstock. If you have a nice collet chuck and your TS quill flops around like a fish out of water then you have wasted your money. No doubts.

So what can a collet chuck do in a wood lathe that a half decent scroll chuck can't? In my opinion, absolutely nothing.
A scroll chuck on the other hand can do lots. With only two sets of jaws against a large full set of collets there is just no contest. You can hold virtually any irregular shape from round to oblong. 

I've waffled enough and it's obvious where I stand, but I'd like to hear from the other side too. If you can state a good case for collets in a wood lathe then please do so.:biggrin:


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## rjwolfe3 (Jan 13, 2010)

I'm not sure but I had a hard time drilling straight down the center with my scroll chuck but it could just be me. I just know that ever since I switched to a collet chuck no more off center holes. It is my understanding that doing bullets is easier with a collet chuck but I havent tried those yet.


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## ed4copies (Jan 13, 2010)

Skippy,

I agree with your conclusion--if I have only one, the scroll chuck will be it.

So why do I have both?  When drilling a large hole in a blank, leaving little material remaining, the collet gives 360 degree support and the scroll chuck doesn't.   I was made MOST aware of this when I blew up a blank Eagle made for me.  It was polyresin with an inset.  He had drilled them successfully on his collet, I did not have a collet, so I used the scroll jaws.  

However, most of the time, this is not a factor.  So, I remain in agreement with you-if I only have ONE, it will be the scroll chuck.

I AM, however, glad to have both  (only took fifteen years to get  the collet, so it's not indispensable!!)


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## ed4copies (Jan 13, 2010)

rjwolfe3 said:


> I'm not sure but I had a hard time drilling straight down the center with my scroll chuck but it could just be me. I just know that ever since I switched to a collet chuck no more off center holes. It is my understanding that doing bullets is easier with a collet chuck but I havent tried those yet.



This is also true, I marred many bullets with my scroll chuck jaws.  Turn quick and easy on collet.


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## mredburn (Jan 13, 2010)

IF you have something you have to grip in the lathe that is very thin and or soft, the collets will grip it better by compressing on the entire piece than the chuck jaws which can crush or oblong the piece as you tighten the jaws.


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## rjwolfe3 (Jan 13, 2010)

Let me add that if I add a decent scroll chuck maybe I would get more use out of it. I have a small one and while it works ok, it is not very versatile.


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## skiprat (Jan 13, 2010)

Ok, I always thought that a bullet was tapered How does one hold it in a collet so that it stays straight? I would have thought that it would be held by the end that gets clamped by the casing. In which case why does it matter if it gets marred? 

As for blowing a segmented blank, surely the 360 grip of a collet only supports the blank for the length of the collet which is similar to the length of pin jaws? The part of the blank either side of the collet is no more protected or supported than any other method of holding.

I can appreciate the 'thin' material holding excuse even though I would rarely need that:biggrin:


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## ed4copies (Jan 13, 2010)

Skippy,

I don't have true pin jaws.  I use, what I believe are termed, #1 jaws??

And my shooting semantics are terrible.  I hold the brass part that turns into the pen---call it whatever you wish.  It spun in the scroll chuck.  The collet, positioned immediately below the part I am going to drill (which is the "back" of the projectile) will hold it while I drill.  And I don't want marks on it, because it will become a pen ( I KNOW that term), ballpoint version!!!


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## skiprat (Jan 13, 2010)

Ed I'm not trying to teach you to suck eggs but I only found out that the casings are tapered as well after you sent me the bag full of them:biggrin: I use electrical tape in my shop like it's going out of fashion. In the pic below ( one jaw removed for the pic ) I used two layers on the wide end and 4 on the narrow end. That sorts out the taper holding and prevents marring too. I even use this method when boring a polished item in my metal lathe. Don't wrap the item in a spiral fashion though, make two 'rings' like I have. You can also use o-rings, lots of grip and no marring:biggrin:


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## hunter-27 (Jan 13, 2010)

Generally on about any bullet component there is a section that is not tapered and this is where the collet will grip.  It is really the only application I have that it is needed over the scroll chruck(scroll chuck mars the bullets).


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## ed4copies (Jan 13, 2010)

skiprat said:


> Ed I'm not trying to teach you to suck eggs but I only found out that the casings are tapered as well after you sent me the bag full of them:biggrin: I use electrical tape in my shop like it's going out of fashion. In the pic below ( one jaw removed for the pic ) I used two layers on the wide end and 4 on the narrow end. That sorts out the taper holding and prevents marring too. I even use this method when boring a polished item in my metal lathe. Don't wrap the item in a spiral fashion though, make two 'rings' like I have. You can also use o-rings, lots of grip and no marring:biggrin:



Which proves what we all know here:  You are infinitely RESOURCEFUL!!!  And very CLEVER!!

I whip it into the beall collet, no tape on, drill, 20 seconds later remove (using long nose pliars, so I don't burn myself) with hole in it and move on to the next one.  In fifteen minutes, I can have about a dozen drilled.  No tape to remove (which would have gotten hot and will be "baked on")

Both methods WILL work, I agree.  I am lazy, and I PRODUCE.  You are patient and you make one-ofs, BEAUTIFULLY!!  Especially StarTrek related!!!  (No, she did not bribe me).  People would much rather have YOURS!!!


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## VisExp (Jan 13, 2010)

I agree with you for the most part Steven, but I do prefer the 360 degree support that a collet chuck offers when drilling segmented blanks.


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## Jim Smith (Jan 13, 2010)

I think that given the choice, most people would have both as they each meet a different need.  That being said, I consider you to be one of the most resourceful, creative and meticulous pen turners on this site and I am consistently amazed at the pens you create.  I just got a Bealle collet chuck and a full set of collets for Christmas (from me!) and I can only hope that it helps me get a bit more accurate with my pen making.  

P.S. I was over in your neck of the woods (sort of) all last week and I must say, the weather left a bit to be desired.  Eight inches of snow, no roads plowed and temps in the low teens (F).  We were stuck in our hotel for four days in Farnborough.  

Jim Smith


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## NewLondon88 (Jan 13, 2010)

I had (briefly) a collet chuck, but didn't see it as better for anything I was doing
with the exception of the bullet casings. On a metal lathe, I can definitely see
the advantage .. even necessity in some cases.

I've had the pin jaws on my scroll chuck pretty much forever unless I'm turning
something other than pens. I drill blanks with the pin jaws and the biggest
problem I have is making sure that the blank is square. otherwise, it could
pivot somewhat on irregular shaped woods. Square blanks get held by all four
jaws. Rectangle blanks are only held by two jaws.

The electrical tape would make me worried about runout. Do you have any
trouble making sure that the thickness is the same around all of the blank?


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## skiprat (Jan 13, 2010)

Jim, you should have said that you were in the UK, I would have made a detour on my travels to join you for a pint in the pub at Farnborough.
LOL, Farnborough airbase was the first place I 'Skip-Dived' :biggrin: I got about twenty meters of aluminium rod that used to be an military antena (sp?):biggrin:
8 inches of snow is a lot for the UK. Anymore than 1 inch and the UK grinds to a halt. We have about 2 - 3 inches at the moment where I live in North Wales.


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## skiprat (Jan 13, 2010)

NewLondon88 said:


> The electrical tape would make me worried about runout. Do you have any
> trouble making sure that the thickness is the same around all of the blank?


 
Charlie, I wouldn't use it where I need precision or wasn't worried about marring a polished part. That is why I apply the tape in bands and not spirally.
I would also bet that the tape would have less adverse effect than a sloppy wood lathe TS quill. 
Although I do round 90% of my blanks first, I haven't had a problem drilling an oblong in my scroll chuck. I also often drill in an oblong blank using my 3 jaw chuck in my metal lathe.  It's actually pretty easy to get a square in the middle of three jaws.


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## Texatdurango (Jan 13, 2010)

I won’t get into which is better because I really don’t see that one is necessarily better than the other, they both serve their purpose and the buying decision is really personal because more often than not, the decision is based on affordability rather than functionality. 

To me, it’s all about convenience and comfort. I use my scroll chucks on my larger wood lathe 100% of the time while using the collet chuck on the mini lathe 80% of the time and the metal lathe is probably split 50/50.

I find that using the collet chuck allows me to do things I couldn’t do with a scroll chuck regardless how accurate it is so I tend to use collets more.

The main reason I like a collet chuck is when I make a pen from scratch I’ll chuck it up in a collet and that is where it lives until it comes off the lathe… a finished pen. That includes all turning, drilling, tapping, sanding and polishing and I have just gotten into a routine that I am comfortable with. I can take a blank out, flip it over end for end, stick it back in and continue working without having to worry if the blank is wobbling or not or of if the jaws are digging into the blank. I can’t imagine sanding a blank to 1000 grit then polishing it, flipping it end for end in a scroll chuck to finish the other end because the jaws would surely leave their mark, yet I do it all the time in a collet without so much as leaving a mark. 

But to someone who only turns kit blanks on their lathe or making pens is only a portion of what they use their lathe for, listening to my rationale doesn’t make much sense to them and only serves to prove how personal tool decisions really are. 

I just hope everyone is having as much fun as I am! :biggrin:


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## BigguyZ (Jan 14, 2010)

I think Skippy's post is great, and I agree that scroll shuck are more versatile and someone who uses one shouldn't feel pushed into a collet chuck because they're not as accurate as the collet.  I have a scroll chuck, and I use the pin jaws for everything.  But when I need to use my "pin" chuck for closed end pens, I switch to my jacobs chuck to hold it.  I just get less wobble.  I don't have a collet chuck yet, but I plan to get one for the same reason Ed and George have noted.  The collet chuck isn't necessarily better overall, but it may be better for some tasks.  When I get to segmented pens, I'll definitly want to remove any chance of misalignment.

So yeah, the scroll chuck is fabulous, and I'm glad I bought mine first (even though I wasn't really aware of the collet chuck at the time).  But I definitely want the collet chuck now for some more advanced possibilities.


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## skiprat (Jan 14, 2010)

OK, I concede on some of the points made for collets but still not convinced about others. While collets offer almost 360 support, they only do so for the length of the collet. Just like scroll chucks they offer zero support for the rest of a ( segmented ) blank.
Try a little test....with a drill bit in a jacobs chuck in the TS, extend the quill say about 2 1/2 inches ( average blank drilling depth) now hold the end of the drill bit and see how much movement you have. *For me*, that kind of movement defeats the object of collets.

Although I don't have one yet, I'm very surprised that someone hasn't pointed out another ( possibly the best ) reason to get one?

All the ones I've concidered buying are very smooth with no protrusions and are unlikely to catch hold of a chisel or knuckle. As my metal lathe chucks are pretty accurate ( well, more than my abilities anyway :frown: ) this will be my main reason for getting one. I won't bother on my wood lathe.

But thanks for the civil replies so far.:biggrin:


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## skiprat (Jan 14, 2010)

BigguyZ said:


> ........ I don't have a scroll chuck yet, but I plan to get one for the same reason Ed and George have noted. .....


 

I think you meant you don't have a collet chuck yet?:biggrin:


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## jleiwig (Jan 14, 2010)

skiprat said:


> All the ones I've concidered buying are very smooth with no protrusions and are unlikely to catch hold of a chisel or knuckle. As my metal lathe chucks are pretty accurate ( well, more than my abilities anyway :frown: ) this will be my main reason for getting one. I won't bother on my wood lathe.
> 
> But thanks for the civil replies so far.:biggrin:


 
I will tell you that the knurl on the PSI version can heat up some knuckle skin right quickly to the point you wonder where the fire was.   :biggrin:


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## skiprat (Jan 14, 2010)

LOL Justin. One of the sad things I find about getting old is that it takes longer for my dumb brain to register pain. I dripped some CA onto my lap once and it took for ever to figure out why I was jumping around the shop!!! It wasn't fun un-sticking my jeans from my leg:biggrin:


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## dogcatcher (Jan 14, 2010)

The collet chuck is more efficient for some jobs, as is the scroll chuck for others.  If I could only have one I would choose the scroll chuck with all of the jaws.  I have both and both get used all of the time.


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## Texatdurango (Jan 14, 2010)

I am reminded of a discussion several months ago when I was visiting a fellow turners shop to show him how to do a CA finish. We got to talking about chucks and I asked him if he had a collet chuck and he didn't know what I was talking about!

This gentleman is considered one of the finest wood turners in the area if not the entire state and does seminars throughout the year and yet he had never even heard of a collet chuck, but then again, he probably never had a need for one making his masterpieces.

This just further illustrates that unless you have a definate need for one there is no sense in getting one just because others have them or use them.  We were never meant to have identical setups, that's what makes this group so diverse.

And as far as the knurled nut on the PSI chuck, I wouldn't mind a little skin loss now and then to have one. There are days that my arthritus plays hell with me trying to loosen the nut on my Beall nut.

I've been thinking of buying a knurling tool for my metal lathe to see if I could cut my own knurls!


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## Daniel (Jan 14, 2010)

I have both a collet and scroll chuck. My scroll chuck is a Nove2 so it is not a cheap limited one. Actually I own 3 collet chucks and one scroll chuck. sort of tells the story right there. 
My first response tot he question has been to say. For pen turning I prefer the collet chuck hands down. But then immediately this brings up nagging points like. Just what is involved in "Penturning"? sheesh. well for me this means you need to cut drill glue a tube mount to a mandrel and turn to finished shape and finish. no segmenting issues. no getting blanks round issues, no oversize blanks or alternative materials or?????

So immediately I see the situation that I have a square blank that I need to be able to drill accurately on the lathe. how do I get it round so that the collet chuck can hold it so accurately. well in my shop the answer is the scroll chuck. Sorry I don't have any other answers than that at the moment cause I have never needed one.
So now I am at a position with your question of having a blank I can drill but not accurately enough or having a blank I cannot drill at all because it will not fit in my chuck. Along comes the trusty whittling knife to save the day. well maybe kinda sort of.

I turn peppermills, tool handles and even things like candle sticks on my scroll chuck. pens are pretty much only with a collet chuck. turning square things round is done with the scroll chuck with the exception of pen blanks that are drilled and mounted on a mandrel. 
bullets are drilled only with the collet, blanks requiring high degree of accuracy are also drilled with the collet. pendants are also mounted to lathe with a collet chuck, while large square blanks would be rounded and even parted off to be pendant blanks with the scroll chuck.
with a broader idea of what is involved in penturning I can only say, I am more grateful than ever before that I have both.

I do find this general rule to work for me. smaller and more detailed go with the collet, bigger, odd shaped items and stronger hold go with the scroll chuck.
the difference it is a bit like the difference in a framing hammer and a sledge hammer.


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## jleiwig (Jan 14, 2010)

Daniel said:


> So immediatley I see the situation that I have a square blank that I need to be able to drill accuratley on the lathe. how do I get it round so that the collet chuck can hold it so accurately. well in my shop the answer is the scroll chuck. Sorry I don't have any other answers than that at the moment cause I have never needed one.
> So now I am at a positon with yoru question of having a blank I can drill but not accurately enough or having a blank I cannot drill at all beause it will not fit in my chuck. Along comes the trusty whittling knife to save the day. well maybe kinda sort of.


 
Me thinks that if you round your blanks first and then stick them in the collet chuck for drilling you don't need to use your scroll chuck. No need for a whittling knife!

I no longer own a scroll chuck because 99% of my work is handled by the collet chuck, and the scroll chuck was collecting dust.


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## NewLondon88 (Jan 14, 2010)

skiprat said:


> LOL Justin. One of the sad things I find about getting old is that it takes longer for my dumb brain to register pain. I dripped some CA onto my lap once and it took for ever to figure out why I was jumping around the shop!!! It wasn't fun un-sticking my jeans from my leg:biggrin:



Where was I when the tickets went on sale??


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## Emaxx3 (Jan 14, 2010)

Interesting topic guys... one question though... my understanding is that pin jaws are designed to be expanded into a recess / hole rather than clamping like shown in some previous posts. Because the jaws only are maintained by one screw rather than 2.  If it is fine to clamp with pin jaws as shown (duh - otherwise there wouldn't be such a hot topic) than I am ordering the pin jaws from Grizz this week.  The #2 jaws are fine for bowls but do not hold my pen blanks so good


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## skiprat (Jan 14, 2010)

I believe that we are all in agreement that collets will hold a round blank more accurately centred than a scroll chuck. No doubt about it.
We also agree that it will support a fragile rounded segmented blank better, but  only the part actually in the collet.
We also all seem to agree that a collet will be less likely to mark a bullet, for example.  Cool  that's good.

But how does this relate to the TS fitted with a drilling chuck and a drill bit?  I can only use mine as an example and have already said it is far too loosely ( poorly ? ) fitted to offer any degree of accuracy while being cranked. I can make it perfect while the quill is clamped, but not while moving.

How about someone being honest and seeing how much slop they have and on what type of lathe?
When you drill a deep hole, does the drill bit squeal like a banshee? 
If you need to move the TS further to make a very deep hole ( like for a long click pen ) with the lathe off, can the TS slide the bit cleanly in and out of the hole without binding? The point I'm trying to make is, is the TS / chuck / bit a match for the accuracy of the collets? 

If for arguements sake we accept that a collet is 100% accurate and  scroll chuck is say only 90% then the TS assembly would need to be higher than 90% accurate to get the any benifit from the collet. I think.
If the TS assembly ( quill, morse taper adaptor, jacobs chuck, bit ) is less than 90% while moving then surely it defeats the object of the collet.

I also want to point out that with pin jaws, there are actually 8 points of contact on a square or round blank, the same as a collet:wink: In fact some collets only have 6.


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## Texatdurango (Jan 14, 2010)

skiprat said:


> ......I also want to point out that with pin jaws, there are actually 8 points of contact on a square or round blank, the same as a collet:wink: In fact some collets only have 6.


 
Yep, there may only be 8 points of contact on a collet _*BUT...*_ look at the WIDTH of those points! :biggrin: I would guesstimate that close to 90% of the surface of the blank is in contact with the metal surface of the collet... AND it has that amount of contact for 1.6" in case you are using an er-32 collet. That's a lot of even gripping power and for a 2" long blank, almost the entire length of the blank!

Not bad eh!


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## dogcatcher (Jan 14, 2010)

It all boils down to convenience, each chuck has points that are better than the other for particular jobs.  In reality to make a pen you don't need either chuck.  But I prefer to make a pen as easy to as possible while getting the best pen as the end result.  So I use both my scroll and collet chuck.  Do I need them?  No, but I won't give them up.


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## Chuck Key (Jan 14, 2010)

skiprat said:


> But how does this relate to the TS fitted with a drilling chuck and a drill bit? I can only use mine as an example and have already said it is far too loosely ( poorly ? ) fitted to offer any degree of accuracy while being cranked. I can make it perfect while the quill is clamped, but not while moving.


 
It tells me that the lathe is a poor substitute for a drill press. This can also be judged by comparing the late tail stock quill to even the lowest cost drill press. If accuracy is important maybe the drill press is the tool to use.

Chuckie


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## jleiwig (Jan 14, 2010)

I think my tailstock advances just fine.  As long as you keen the locking lever tight, but not so tight that it can't move, I've never had any accuracy problems.  If you run the locking lever all the way out, then yeah, your going to get a lot of slop.


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## philb (Jan 14, 2010)

Well I can't even get my tailstock to line up with headstock! So I couldn't tell you which as more accurate for drilling!! 

I can see how a collet is better for segment and fragile blanks. But for drilling of normal or square blanks then a scroll is fine! Especially if you your tailstock is even a 1mm or less sloppy. 

Phil


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## Daniel (Jan 15, 2010)

jleiwig said:


> Me thinks that if you round your blanks first and then stick them in the collet chuck for drilling you don't need to use your scroll chuck. No need for a whittling knife!
> 
> I no longer own a scroll chuck because 99% of my work is handled by the collet chuck, and the scroll chuck was collecting dust.



Turning blank round, between centers I presume. I don't do that often but it would be an answer that allows me to get by with just the collet chuck.


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## Daniel (Jan 15, 2010)

skiprat said:


> .
> 
> But how does this relate to the TS fitted with a drilling chuck and a drill bit?  I can only use mine as an example and have already said it is far too loosely ( poorly ? ) fitted to offer any degree of accuracy while being cranked. I can make it perfect while the quill is clamped, but not while moving.
> 
> ...



I have not taken any actual measurments but can if you really want them. So this is nothign more than me looking at my lathes and giving it a good enough or not good enough rating.
I own three lathes, two of which get a pass for drilling with and the third a non pass.
Lathe 1 is a mini metal lathe that I actually do have measurments on. it has 0.001" run out from the tail stock to the head stock with the tail stock set 12 inches from the head. There is not even that much play int he tail stock quill when it is not locked down so I always have it in my head that I have less then 0.002" of play with anything I am drilling with that lathe.
lathe 2 is an old pre Harbor Freight, Harbor Freight quality pipe bed lathe. My guestimate is that the tail stock can have as much as 1/4 of play in it and jsut where it lines up depends on jsut what part fo the pipe it is setting on. this is the inno way shape or form are you gonna drill with this thing lathe.
Lathe 3 is a new HF knock off of a Jet lathe. flat bed, good tail stock with no noticable play or offset to the head stock and tail stock. this lathe has been used to drill often but if I need to know exactly where a hole will be I go to the mini lathe.

No chuck is going to help a bad tail stock.

Oh by the way my collets and chuck are rated as being accurate to within 0.001" as well. these are the cheap ones if you want 0.0001 accuracy you will pay pretty steeply for it.


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## workinforwood (Jan 16, 2010)

Well Steve..I'm following all you are saying and can't find anything I disagree with.  This is why I sold my collet chuck on my wood lathe.  On my metal lathe however, the collet chuck is sweeeet!!!  Almost as good as my wife, but not quite!:tongue:


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## Texatdurango (Jan 16, 2010)

workinforwood said:


> Well Steve..I'm following all you are saying and can't find anything I disagree with. This is why I sold my collet chuck on my wood lathe. On my metal lathe however, the collet chuck is sweeeet!!! Almost as good as my wife, but not quite!:tongue:


 
Jeff, How are you using your collet chuck on the metal lathe and how were you using the collet chuck on your wood lathe?  I'm just curious since I've had my metal lathe now for almost a year and I rarely use my collet chuck on my metal lathe.

Maybe there are some tasks easier performed on the metal lathe that I'm overlooking.  Come on... share the knowledge!


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## workinforwood (Jan 16, 2010)

Well George, you would need to see my metal lathe to truly understand the nature of the beast.  It uses a bolt on system instead of a typical thread on system.  Because things have to be bolted on, you are quite limited by the accessories available and when using the accessories, it is very time consuming to align them when they are installed.  You have a big plate with 3 holes in it that bolts go it, so a chuck of any kind has to have bolt holes in it in the same position.  But, you can't just tighten the bolts and expect that the chuck is in the center..that would be too easy!  So you have to mess with that, and then you have to mess with the fingers on the chuck, so you have double the alignment work to do.  That is only a small part of why though, because once it is set up right, you are good to go as long as you don't make changes.  The biggest reason for the collet chuck is the safety aspect.  Those huge fingers flying around are not too friendly on a jaw chuck!  The collet chuck allows me to get the alignment more precise..although I know the number difference is extremely small.  Marring is pretty much non existant, and I know with a chuck it can still be minimal, but every little bit helps.  The 5C chuck I use is super simple and quick to change collets.  Because I am using 5C collets, I can pull the entire collet and the pen out of the machine and I can transfer it to a collet fixture which would allow me to index and mill the side of something using the lathe or a mill, while not needing to purchase more collets.  A collet fixture can be purchased for as low as $30.  You can just mount that to a table and pull out a router and start milling that way if desired.  Versatility, speed, accuracy.  Plus, there are a ton of other types of collets I can purchase, like expanding collets and there are mini pin chucks that all are designed for the 5C system.  I do not necessarily own all of these pieces of equipment, but some day down the road I would like to, and so I like to use a system that allows room for growth.
  On the wood lathe, I would use the collet chuck to drill certain blanks that required the hole be very precise.  I would also use it for closed end pens, and that was it.  But every time I used it, I had to mess with my alignment and even then it could change in an instant because the tail stock has a tiny bit of slop on the wood lathe.  Every time you move the tail stock and lock it, it is in a different spot.  The movement isn't a huge movement, but it is there and if it is off by 2 hairs, when you extend out the drill bit 3 inches, it then is amplified into 8 hairs or whatever..you know what I mean.  I find that if I always pull towards me as I slide the tailstock and lock it, that helps alot, but still isn't fool proof.  I love my little jet mini, but it isn't tight and tolerant like the metal lathe and the adjustablility of the jet mini kinda sucks.  I can sit there for 20 minutes and get it all sweet, and tighten the crap out of it, but after a couple pens, the head will have moved a couple mil's from the vibration of a spinning blank pounding against a chisel.

So these are my reasons.  I love my metal lathe.  I do wish I had known about the spindle type though before I bought it.  That would have changed my mind.  I would still rather use the collets over the jaws in the metal lathe, but there are times I wish I could just pull the collets off so I can simplify down to a dead center.  As it is, I do all my dead center work on the wood lathe.


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## Texatdurango (Jan 16, 2010)

Wow, that sounds complicated, what kind of metal lathe did you get?


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## workinforwood (Jan 16, 2010)

I bought it from Bolton Hardware.  I got a steal of a deal, 12x30, $1400 or something like that and it included the shipping and a few accessories.  Great working machine, runs smooth, threads great, gears change easy, top slide has a secondary lead screw for automated facing...It's just the type of spindle head that sucks.  I'd like to meet that genius!  Probably the same guy that put that little wall inside some of the jet mini spindles so that you have to cut your dead center to make it fit.  Machinery should have standard features that make them able to use most accessories universally with no mucking around..that's what I think..but life is just not that easy.  My machine actually can't take collets.  I had to have it modified by the cat in order to do so.


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## Sylvanite (Jan 16, 2010)

I have both, and I use both.  I couldn't get by with just one or the other.  Neither one is required for penturning.  I made lots of pens before I owned either kind of chuck.

Scroll chucks will hold square pieces, and larger pieces.  I often drill square blanks on the lathe -- held only on one end by the scroll chuck.  Bowls and boxes often start on a faceplate, but usually only until I turn a spigot and mount a scroll chuck.

A collet chuck will hold small-diameter round pieces on-axis without marring.  In my experience, it does yield better concentricity.  I use one when I need to drill a centered hole.  I often drill rounded blanks and turn other parts held in a collet chuck.

Before I bought a collet chuck, I made my own wood collets and used them in the scroll chuck.  They worked, but not nearly as well as the metal collets in a collet chuck.  I won't go back.

As I'm sure many know, I make and sell "bullet pen" kits.  I couldn't do that without a collet chuck.  A scroll chuck just doesn't hold the shellcase (not casing - "case") or bullet well enough.  Bullets are generally not tapered along the bearing surface.  Many rifle cases are tapered, but can still be held by a collet.

Both scroll chucks and collet chucks serve me well - for different purposes.  Someday, I'll get a metal lathe.  I might find the collet chuck less useful when all the processes I use it for switch lathes.  Until then, however, it's a necessary tool in my collection.

Regards,
Eric


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## skiprat (Jan 16, 2010)

Jeff, your lathe sounds the same as mine. Did you have to machine the flange to fit the chuck(s)?  Mine came with the 3 jaw chuck pre-fitted and I had to machine the adaptors for the 4 jaw independent and self centering ones though.
Even though it has a fixed flange on the headstock, surely the bore is a morse taper? Mine is a MT3 on HS and MT2 on TS. 
I think your lathe is a little bigger than my 10 x 21.5?


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## workinforwood (Jan 16, 2010)

The plate or flange was pre machined, but you know you have to machine it again when you get it because it was not machined using this lathe.  Does come with 3 jaw chuck which is "machined to fit" as they say. The bore is a morse taper, MT5, but back behind the spindle in the gear box there is not enough room for a drawbar because the pully's would be in the way, thus the need for a collet chuck instead.  The plate on the machine is sort of like a brake disk on a car.  It has a step up in the middle, and that step is supposed to center the 3 jaw chuck and helps hold it in place when you bolt it into place.  I had to surface the plate and I also had to shave some of the "step" away because after the collet chuck or even a 3 jaw chuck is bolted to it, you still need to wiggle it about and I couldn't get enough wiggle to get it centered until I shaved a hair off that step.  I tapped and turned on that chuck for a couple hours before I finally got it down to .ooo2 and then I celebrated!  The collet chuck is mounted to a face plate which was already designed for this machine.  So I had to again, center the faceplate to the lathe and then center the chuck to the faceplate...therefore I am not interested in removing the collet chuck unless I have no choice. I could see myself buying a second machine before I want to take that on again! Now I am trying to figure out what's going on with my drill chuck.  Fortunately CaptGary gave me one, but the hole in his only 3/8 or something small like that.  I bought a bigger 5/8 one on ebay, MT3 for the tailstock.  It shows up 9 days later, I stick it in the tail and it is an MT2.  So I contact her and say hey..I bought MT3 and you sent MT2.  The person says not a problem, I send you out a new rod that goes in the back of the chuck that is MT3.  Now 2 days ago that finally arrives, so I go down to the shop, wrestle the rod out of the chuck, try and stick in the MT3 rod...it doesn't fit in the back of the drill chuck.  So now I have an MT2 Keyless drill chuck with taper rod and a useless MT3 taper rod and no reply yet from the vendor.  I can't believe the vendor didn't check before sending me that rod.  I know I can just buy an MT2-3 adaptor..but I paid for MT3 and don't have it.  I'm frustrated!


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## skiprat (Jan 16, 2010)

Well whatever you do, don't settle for the MT2 - 3 adaptor. Even if aligns perfectly, you'll waste valuable bed length.

When I skimmed my flange and other chuck adaptor plates, I was told that they must be a tight fit and I *shouldn't* be able to remove or fit them by hand. I must have got them right as I need to use a plastic mallet to get them on or off. I hope you didn't take too much off!!

Once you have it mounted, do you need to tap around the chuck to get it central before tightening the nuts? I really hope not, as you are now relying on the studs and nuts to keep it aligned. I reckon it will move if you do anything but light cuts. That will be a serious and costly disaster!!!!


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## workinforwood (Jan 17, 2010)

You would probably be correct Steve.  It's on there pretty damn tight, but a hard catch could still possibly move it.  It would never fall off, but yes it could move off by several hundred thousands and had to be tapped into place with a mallet.  It will have to be something for me to come back to down the road and re-machine when I am more comfortable with the machine. As it was, the factory setting made the chuck really wobble..including the factory 3 jaw chuck, and I only know some fundamental basics for metal turning, nothing more.


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