# Lacquer finish question



## leehljp (Apr 12, 2009)

I just discovered dipping and the "speed" that it offers . . i.e. turn many blanks, dip and hang many in a short time. I am trying this (dipping) with medium CA to see how it works. I will report on this later.

My lacquer question:
About a month ago, I took a Starbucks travel mug, took the outer plastic cover off and turned a wood (keyaki/JPN elm) cover for it. It worked well, but I had one lacquer problem - and that might the the "kind" of lacquer that I am using.

I sealed it initially with a coat of thin and then a coat of medium CA and sanded that back to the wood. I thought the two coats of CA would seal the pores reasonably well. 

Over the course of a week, I put about 11 or 12 coats of straight lacquer on it. Once in the morning and once in the evening. But even then, each coat dryed so thin that the grain pattern was evident as though it had one or two coats of thin at best. I was hoping to build up a smooth coat of Japanese lacquer, but it never happened. 

When applying the lacquer coats, they were reasonably thick, but dried to levels thinner than gold leaf. 

Does normal (USA) lacquer dry out this thin? Or should I expect to put 20 to 30 coats if I try this on pens - for a thicker coating.


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## xmaddchillx (Apr 12, 2009)

I just did 2 coats dipped on a purpleheart pen and i could still see some of the pores on the grain. I am no expert though


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## chriselle (Apr 12, 2009)

Hank,

   What are you using for lacquer?  There really is only ONE real kind of Japanese lacquer.:biggrin:  
  Aside from my bias....you should get try a can of Washin synthetic urushi.  "neoclear" is amber but is relatively clear in the number of layers we use.  The stuff dries to touch overnight and can be finish wet sanded in a week or so.  It's quite "urushi-ish" without the drama.:wink:


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## DCBluesman (Apr 12, 2009)

In my experience, 6-8 coats of a good lacquer is equal to about .1mm of finish.


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## KenV (Apr 13, 2009)

Lee -- sounds like you may need to level the surface -- sand with a firm block to support the sandpaper.   You should see the high spots dull and the low spots shinny.   

If you have very fine tool control, use a medium or thick CA coat and then use shear scrape the surface to get a smooth level finish.   I have to have the "mag eyes" on to even come close -- and often have to finish with the sandpaper block.


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## leehljp (Apr 13, 2009)

KenV said:


> Lee -- sounds like you may need to level the surface -- sand with a firm block to support the sandpaper.   You should see the high spots dull and the low spots shinny.
> 
> If you have very fine tool control, use a medium or thick CA coat and then use shear scrape the surface to get a smooth level finish.   I have to have the "mag eyes" on to even come close -- and often have to finish with the sandpaper block.



Actually it was still on the lathe when I put the finish on. I did wipe the lacquer on with a "good" brush all the way around and hand rotated the lathe for about 5 - 7 minutes to let the finish set evenly.

It was sanded up to 800 SP before applying the first coats of CA and then the CA was sanded with 1800 and 2400 MM. 


Lou, if what you said is true (and I don't doubt it at all) then that means I have about .15mm of finish, or .006" - That sounds about what it looks like.


Chris, I purchased it at a local home center. Forgot the brand but it was ra ka – ! :wink:


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## rudya7 (Apr 13, 2009)

There are different thicknesses of lacquer that can be used for pens. Padding lacquer is the type that you can apply with the blanks while they are still on the lathe and spinning. I used this early on when I started turning pens due to the speed of application, deep shine and fast drying time. The downside is the thin coating doesn't last very long for (abused) everyday use pens. I now have gone to a process of finishing the pen blank with one coat of either thin or medium ca, depending on the grain of the wood, and then dip with the PSI Dipping Lacquer. It's called Hi-Gloss Wood Project Finish. It has very thick consistency. The deep shine is unbelievable and it lasts for years of everyday use. I've been giving pens to co workers for the last 10 or 15 years so I get to see what holds up in long term use. This finish is so consistent that I've now used this as a standard for the last 5 years of so. One pint will last for close to 100 pens with this type of application.


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## leehljp (Apr 13, 2009)

Thanks for that info Rudy. I will keep that in mind. I would like to get some of that but I know it doesn't exist over here and I won't chance bringing back in my suitcase. 

But in two years, I will be back to stay!


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## johncrane (Apr 13, 2009)

Interesting Rudy! any problems with UV rays:biggrin:


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## aggromere (Apr 13, 2009)

*dipping solution*

When you use the dipping solution as a finish on pens, does it get inside the tubes and mess up the fittings for assembly or do you plug them or it doesn't matter.


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## rudya7 (Apr 13, 2009)

johncrane said:


> Interesting Rudy! any problems with UV rays:biggrin:


 It doesn't seem to hurt or help much. I haven't seem the laquer yellow with age, but you still get the color change with woods like Pink Ivory, Paduak and Cocobolo, they just seem to darken with time and exposure to light.


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## rudya7 (Apr 13, 2009)

aggromere said:


> When you use the dipping solution as a finish on pens, does it get inside the tubes and mess up the fittings for assembly or do you plug them or it doesn't matter.


 
I don't plug them up. I hang them on a slighly bent wire inside the tube and let the laquer drip out. It takes about an hour to be fully dry if its warm, longer if its cold. ( the can says 1/2 hour but I like to be safe) I use a reamer to clean out the laquer inside the tubes once its dry. It's about the same as cleaning out the CA when gluing the wood to the tunes, just a couple of quick turns and its done.


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## leehljp (Apr 13, 2009)

I have some rubber stoppers of different sizes here and decided to use them. The tubes inside were clean and the rubber stoppers are re-usable. I have a pack of hook screws that I screwed into the rubber stoppers and it worked well for my 4 trials.


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## Dvoigt (Apr 16, 2009)

Lacquer is really that thin that it would take 10+ coats for a decent finish?  I was thinking about trying lacquer because CA gives me a headache at times, both figuratively and literally but it doesn't seem like alot of people go that route.


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## Russianwolf (Apr 16, 2009)

Dvoigt said:


> Lacquer is really that thin that it would take 10+ coats for a decent finish?  I was thinking about trying lacquer because CA gives me a headache at times, both figuratively and literally but it doesn't seem like alot of people go that route.



I'm one of the ones that goes the opposite of everyone else. Most of my pens have a lacquer finish with only a very few with CA (mainly because they needed stabilizing to turn). I love the look and feel of a lacquer finish and they hold up well when allowed to cure properly. CA's only advantage is speed as far as I can see.


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## Rmartin (Apr 16, 2009)

When I can't get a good finish with CA/Blo (some very oily woods), I go to my fall back laquer finish. 5 or 6 coats sprayed every 15 minites or so (depends on atmospheric conditions). After each coat, I let stand on a bed of wood with nails. Let cure overnight, then micro-mesh on the lathe. Occasionally, a stray pen needs one recoat. The finish is fantastic, but it should be given at least a week if not a month before put to daily use. That's the rub, and why I switched to CA/BLO.


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## workinforwood (Apr 16, 2009)

If you are looking for that corner table glass look, you need to level the grain.  Sure, you can use 20 coats of laquer and keep sanding it down, but what makes the most sense is to simply purchase a bottle of pore filler.  Pore filler is thick and crystal clear.  Once the pores are full, you build that finish with 15 coats of laquer or more depending on the depth you want to achieve.  You don't have to sand between each coat of laquer, just the first couple coats.  Sanding between coats removes pretty much the entire coat prior to sanding, so that defeats the purpose, but the first couple coats should be lightly sanded to remove any raised grain.  Otherwise, each coat of laquer will soften the previous coat which allows the coats to chemically bond to each other, unlike a polyurethane which must be scuffed up if another coat is applied several hours later.


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## leehljp (Apr 17, 2009)

workinforwood said:


> If you are looking for that corner table glass look, you need to level the grain.  Sure, you can use 20 coats of laquer and keep sanding it down, but what makes the most sense is to simply purchase a bottle of pore filler.  Pore filler is thick and crystal clear.  Once the pores are full, you build that finish with 15 coats of laquer or more depending on the depth you want to achieve.



Living in the land of "lacquer" - pore filler is hard to come by at most stores. Sanding sealer also. I will be filling the pores with CA though and trying lacquer over the sanded CA - to see what happens.

Thanks for the post and tip.


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## xmaddchillx (Apr 18, 2009)

So my two coat finish is too little? Ok next one ill try 10+ my patience isnt that good though! lol


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## bitshird (Apr 21, 2009)

Using Lacquer brings back memories of a mis-spent youth, 30 coats of Black Lacquer hand rubbed on a 54 Olds 88 2 Dr. hard top. I've only done 4 or 5 pens with lacquer, I used an extra CNC stepper motor, and wrote a program that turned it at 20 RPM , about every 4 or 5 minutes I sprayed a coat of Deft Gloss Lacquer.
 They turned out great, after letting them set for two weeks, I didn't sand between coats ,I just used 1 coat of thin CA to seal, dry sanded back to wood  up to 800 and used the CA as a sealer, most of the pens had somewhere around 10 or 15 coats, fairly heavy ones but no runs, the finish is beautiful, I'm not sure how the durability will be, but they sure look good on darker wood, Not so great on light color wood though.


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## dbriski (Apr 21, 2009)

I think a big difference on the thickness of the lacqur is its intended use. If it is spraying lacqur, it is quite thin and you will get thin coats, ment for multiple coats spraying.  If it is brushing lacqur it is a lot thicker and has retardants in it to slow the drying for more leveling.


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## makaiolani (Apr 21, 2009)

You have to fill in the pores first.  I work with Koa a lot and it is very open.  You need to use a grain filler or CA.


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## RussFairfield (Apr 22, 2009)

You are learning something about all lacquers - they are the easiest finish to apply, but the most difficult finish to apply well. 

Lacquers will telegraph and magnify every flaw in the wood surface more than any other finish. That leads to 2 Rules for the lacquer finish.

The first is that the surface has to be smooth and flawless before the 1st coat of lacquer is put on the wood.

If you didn't get the surface smooth before you started, you will have to sand the surface at some point to make it flat and smoooth.


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## leehljp (Apr 22, 2009)

RussFairfield said:


> You are learning something about all lacquers - they are the easiest finish to apply, but the most difficult finish to apply well.
> 
> Lacquers will telegraph and magnify every flaw in the wood surface more than any other finish. That leads to 2 Rules for the lacquer finish.
> 
> ...



I appreciate this info Russ. I don't have "sealer" in Japan and have been spoiled by the pore quick fill properties of CA. Actually in Japan, They use lacquer and get SMOOTH results. I must find out their method. I have never seen sanding sealer in the paint stores near the lacquers.


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## DCBluesman (Apr 22, 2009)

You can make a sanding sealer from the same thing you use for a top coat by just adding a compatible solvent to make a thinner version.  Most sanding sealers have an additive that reduces clogging while sanding, such as talc or stearic acid (powder).  While the lubricating additive is not required, I have found that a tablespoon per quart does a fine job.

Remember that a sanding sealer is just a thin coat of finish that will penetrate deeper and provide a more level surface while hardening the wood fiber such that your final sanding effort produces a near-perfect substrate for your top coat(s). Any grain raising is taken care of as you sand down this sealer coat. The key is do your final sanding lightly, with fine grit paper, trying not to sand through the sealer back into bare wood .


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## holmqer (Apr 22, 2009)

leehljp said:


> I appreciate this info Russ. I don't have "sealer" in Japan and have been spoiled by the pore quick fill properties of CA. Actually in Japan, They use lacquer and get SMOOTH results. I must find out their method. I have never seen sanding sealer in the paint stores near the lacquers.



I usually use clear Shellac as a sealer before applying Lacquer. After the Shellac cures, I use 0000 steel wool on it just to the point where the shine goes off the Shellac before applying the Lacquer and have excellent results.


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## JohnU (Apr 22, 2009)

Ive been using PSI Dipping Lacquer for about two years and I brush it one.  Its thicker than the lacquer I buy at the local hardware store and self leveling.  Ive never had a problem with wood grain and lacquer because I apply thin CA between all my coats of sanding up to 600 grit.  I brush six coats of lacquer but it goes on thinner when you brush than if you dip.  Five to six days later I spin with EEE and it smooths out like glass.


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## RussFairfield (Apr 25, 2009)

Thin CA glue is a good sealer and grain filler under a lacquer finish.


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## JerrySambrook (Apr 27, 2009)

Russ,
       I purchased a copy of your DVD set and would like to say;

THANK YOU:good:

Sincerely
Jerry Sambrook

p.s.  anyone that can get a copy, it would behoove you to do so!
jms


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