# 10k Gold Plating???



## Hugob (Feb 13, 2006)

I've turned and sold this 10k Gold Softgrip Pen lastyear in November.
After 4 months, this is what the platting looks like.......
Not to good in my books, 'they' say it will last for years.

Any comments???


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## Borg_B_Borg (Feb 13, 2006)

This is similar to my experience with 10k gold plated kits from CSUSA, although mine was slightly less worn, but wear it did.  In a matter of months, the high spots turned silvery looking.

Steve


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## mrcook4570 (Feb 13, 2006)

It will last for years sittimg untouched in a box [].  The only gold that will last is titanium gold.


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## Rudy Vey (Feb 13, 2006)

This is pretty much what happens to any gold coating, call it 24 K, 10 K or upgrade (my experience is with CSUSA and Berea/Woodcraft kits only, no idea how PSI holds up, I don't make these). My experience is that only Titaniumnitride coatings, i.e. TiGold will last for ever. Platinum and Chrome platings will also last.


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## Hugob (Feb 13, 2006)

Txs guys,
My problem is, than they(CSUSA) musn't say on there website, 'that it will last for years'. Because that is what I'm telling my clients aswell.........


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## Old Griz (Feb 13, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Hugob_
> <br />Txs guys,
> My problem is, than they(CSUSA) musn't say on there website, 'that it will last for years'. Because that is what I'm telling my clients aswell.........



Call Nils, and explain the problem, I am sure you will get satisfaction.... they are fantastic that way.. 
I am surprised about the statement about lasting for years....


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## Hugob (Feb 13, 2006)

off the website - 

10k Gold
 Wear Resistance:  
This popular plating blends hard nickel and the beauty of gold together to form a brilliant plating that is durable and affordable.  10k Gold is guaranteed to last for years and is our recommendation for those who want maximum durability for the least amount of money.


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## Rifleman1776 (Feb 13, 2006)

Rudy, PSI won't say what their plating is. They do guarantee it. I wrote them stating that a replacement on a kit was worthless compared to having an expensive pen returned by a customer. Knowing what the plating is allows us to make an informed decision as whether or not we want to buy it. I don't buy pen kits from PSI. Pity because they have one unique to them I would like to make, but won't.


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## gerryr (Feb 13, 2006)

Maybe we should all swamp Berea and CSUSA with emails requesting that they also offer Gold Ti plating on all the kits where it isn't currently available?  CSUSA has a number of nice looking kits where the only gold option is 10K.


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## Geo in Winnipeg (Feb 13, 2006)

Good point Gerry. The Havana and Ligero are higher end pens - why are they only available in 10k??


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## nilsatcraft (Feb 13, 2006)

Hi guys and gals,
  The amount of time a plating will last depends on quite a few factors so we have changed the description on the website so that the 10k and a couple others don't mention any sort of time frame.  The best way to compare the platings is by how many stars they have.  Another thing to keep in mind is that you get what you pay for.  The Titanium and Rhodium cost more but they're definitely worth it.  We will change our Pens and Plating 101 in our next catalog to reflect the changes you see on the website.  
  As for offering certain pens in Titanium, we would love to be able to offer all pens in Titanium but we base their plating upgrades on the sales of the pen, so not all pens will be available in Titanium, Rhodium and/or Black Titanium.  
  Hugob- We apologize for the condition of the parts that you have.  We would be more than happy to replace those parts for you.  Please contact either myself or a member of our customer service team and we'll quickly get that taken care of.


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## Murphy (Feb 13, 2006)

http://www.woodturnerscatalog.com/catalog/plating101.html
Hi, If you follow this link it explains about the different plating.  10K is a better plating and more durable than 24K.  That is probably why the higher end pens only come in this.


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## Rudy Vey (Feb 13, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Rifleman_
> <br />Rudy, PSI won't say what their plating is. They do guarantee it. I wrote them stating that a replacement on a kit was worthless compared to having an expensive pen returned by a customer. Knowing what the plating is allows us to make an informed decision as whether or not we want to buy it. I don't buy pen kits from PSI. Pity because they have one unique to them I would like to make, but won't.



Frank, I agree with you.  I never made knowingly a PSI kit, but I always read the same that they guarantee their plating (supposedly they have a clear powder coating over it) and will replace a kit if the gold wears. Yeah, right. Here starts the crap! What do you tell a customer that paid $20, $30 or $40 and up for a pen and some one, two or three month later the gold is gone??? Been there - done that and learned my lesson. I sold in my early pen making days a pen to my Chiropracter and since I was going there once a week, I saw how fast the gold on the clip wore away. After four weeks he asked me why the clip got so rough, I guess sweat had gotten through the gold plating and started to corrode the base metal, a week later the gold was all gone. I replaced the clip for free, i.e. tore apart another kit and after five more weeks, the clip was looking the same again.  I had heard about "Titaniumgold", i.e. Titaniumnitride coatings for pen kits and immediately I switched to them (I knew from my job how tough TiN is, it is used for plating of forging tools). I made him a free replacement pen in Ti-gold and never heard him say a word regarding wear.

Gold is a very soft metal and will disappear over time, depending on how thick the plating is, how much the pen is handled and how "corrosive" your hands are. Personally, I have had "upgrade" gold plating on my pen start to disappear within five to six weeks and being gone completely within two to three months, but I am a "pen handler", I play always with my pens. I have seen the 10K gold on pens I have made (the model was then not available in TiAu) disappear within 3-4 months, but I am not sure how much it was handled.

But as I said in my earlier post: Titaniumgold is the way to go, if you sell your pens and want happy, returning, customers use this. I have pens with this plating in use for over three years and do not see any wear. Use Platinum, Rhodium and Chrome platings, too. I have not have anyone complaining about them - here or on other sites and from my customers.


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## Murphy (Feb 13, 2006)

Where do you buy titaniumgold pen kits?


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## arioux (Feb 13, 2006)

Hi,

What i would like to know is why the CSU web site stated that 10k would last years.  Did you made any testing? did you made pens and used them on a regular basis.  When we are dealing with a supposely serious company we expect the information that they disclose to be accurate.  Then 24k should say WILL LAST FOR WEEKS.  I find it very hard to read post like this, when i just sold 5 10k pens ,because i beleived that 10k was going to last.

For PSI pens, i have one in my pocket (24k confort)for over a year and daily used and still looking good.  I made many of them and gived away many without any problems (i dont usually sells pen, it's a hobby for me). They where the only kits i was making until i started to read about 24k plating that wont last and figured that i should swith to something more durable (according to their honest web site) .  So i switched to CSU 10k.  I really feel safe now [] 

PSI i'm back.

Alfred


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## Rifleman1776 (Feb 13, 2006)

For the record, I am not boycoting PSI. I do buy other products from them and I like the company. It's just their pen kits I avoid.


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## Rudy Vey (Feb 13, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Murphy_
> <br />Where do you buy titaniumgold pen kits?



Flattops, PerfectFit Convertible and Slimlines I buy in larger quantities from Berea; my Barons come from Arizona Silhouette.
I found that Berea's Titaniumgold has a real gold-look, others TiAu has a brassy look. Guess the reason is that Berea has a thin gold coating on top of the Titaniumnitride.


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## Rudy Vey (Feb 13, 2006)

> _Originally posted by arioux_
> <br />Hi,
> 
> What i would like to know is why the CSU web site stated that 10k would last years.  Did you made any testing? did you made pens and used them on a regular basis.  When we are dealing with a supposely serious company we expect the information that they disclose to be accurate.  Then 24k should say WILL LAST FOR WEEKS.  I find it very hard to read post like this, when i just sold 5 10k pens ,because i beleived that 10k was going to last.
> ...



Alfred, I am not sure if you know, but you can buy PSI kits in Montreal directly from 
Jacques Coulombe, 6815 Belanger St. East, Montreal, (Quebec) H1M 3E9
Tel.:  (514) 255-9769 - Fax.:  (514) 253-0681

Jacques is a very nice guy. I visited him on one of my busines trips to Montreal and bought some very good priced 2060 steel Hamlet gouges and skews, as well as grinder wheels. Call him before you stop by, he travels a lot to shows.


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## jkoehler (Feb 13, 2006)

I only use PSI kits ( I am just beginning and can't afford the more expensive kits as gifts).
The first pen i made ( almost a year ago ) was the PSI Power pen in gold.
I have used the pen and pencil extensively every day since then. I have not noticed the gold wearing at all. 
so far. I have not had any complaints from anyone that i have given the kits to. 
I have read many people comment on PSI having the guarantee the gold finish. i would say that is better than others that wont stand behind their products at all with a guarantee. 
if i was a customer and someone told me that the finish was guaranteed for life. i would feel a little more comfortable about it than if there was no guarantee. 
i see it that the vendor stands behind their product better. 

this is just my 2 cents for what it is worth.

Jeff


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## arioux (Feb 13, 2006)

Hi,

Rudy, i take all my PSI kits and tools at JC.  It's about 10 min from my house.

Thanks for the info anyway.  Appreciate it

Alfred


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## Geo in Winnipeg (Feb 13, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Murphy_
> <br />Where do you buy titaniumgold pen kits?


Almost all of Arizona Silhouette's kits are available in Gold Tn. CSUSA has a lot of pens available in it but I wish more were. I buy Gold Tn Comfort pens (PSI) from Woodturningz (they have a sale on now). I still have some 10k pens left but am not buying any more. I'll spend the extra little bit and get the better plating.
I have no affiliation with any supplier other than being a customer.


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## Hugob (Feb 14, 2006)

TXS GUYS!!!!!!
My conclusion to this...........  We know NOW that any 10k or 24k won't last.  My request to CSUSA will be, were ever you sell a Platinium kit in a range, just make sure that you have a Tit Gold aswell. Example in the Softgrip range, there is only a 10k and then the Platinium.


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## Borg_B_Borg (Feb 14, 2006)

What worries me is not that 10k, 24k, upgrade gold, cobalt gold, etc. won't last.  This much I already knew and I have already stayed clear of them accordingly.  The bigger worry comes from not knowing how the 22k gold plating on the expensive Emperor and Statesman kits will last.  How do you explain to someone who just paid you $100 to $200 for an Emperor pen when the gold plating wears off in a few months?  The Emperor is one of those instances where it makes no sense not to use TiN, unless it's technically impossible to put a TiN coating on the intricately engraved parts.

Steve



> _Originally posted by Hugob_
> <br />TXS GUYS!!!!!!
> My conclusion to this...........  We know NOW that any 10k or 24k won't last.  My request to CSUSA will be, were ever you sell a Platinium kit in a range, just make sure that you have a Tit Gold aswell. Example in the Softgrip range, there is only a 10k and then the Platinium.


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## Hugob (Feb 14, 2006)

GOOD point .......Steve


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## Rifleman1776 (Feb 14, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Borg_B_Borg_
> <br />What worries me is not that 10k, 24k, upgrade gold, cobalt gold, etc. won't last.  This much I already knew and I have already stayed clear of them accordingly.  The bigger worry comes from not knowing how the 22k gold plating on the expensive Emperor and Statesman kits will last.  How do you explain to someone who just paid you $100 to $200 for an Emperor pen when the gold plating wears off in a few months?  The Emperor is one of those instances where it makes no sense not to use TiN, unless it's technically impossible to put a TiN coating on the intricately engraved parts.
> 
> Steve
> ...





Steve said, "it makes no sense not to use TiN". Steve, understand this, if you are the manufacturer/supplier and the product is selling, then it would make no sense at all to change the product. If people buy it, defects and all, for the seller, it makes sense to just keep selling.


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## ed4copies (Feb 14, 2006)

PSI has a tn slimline you all might want to consider.  Have sold hundreds of them and people keep coming back to buy more.  Have used them for at least 5 years.

You can buy them thru Ryan (woodturningz), he's a little cheaper than PSI and I like his service better-but the contact I liked at PSI left a year or so ago.
FWIW


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## nilsatcraft (Feb 14, 2006)

We appreciate all of the input that has been given here.  I will discuss these topics with our management to see about getting more plating availability for more pens.  Please understand that we are not able to offer every pen in every plating.  We offer certain platings and then make decisions based on the response we get.  Obviously there is a demand for better platings in more pens so we will certainly look into this.  



> How do you explain to someone who just paid you $100 to $200 for an Emperor pen when the gold plating wears off in a few months? The Emperor is one of those instances where it makes no sense not to use TiN, unless it's technically impossible to put a TiN coating on the intricately engraved parts.



Gold was used on these pens because it is brighter than the Titanium.  The gold plating used on the Emperor and Statesman pens is by no means a thin or weak plating. It is plated much thicker and is guaranteed for life.  Simply put, you won't have any explaining to do because there won't be any problem.  I have not even heard of anybody returning a Statesman or Emperor pen due to plating issues.  That being the case, we have no reason to change to Titanium as there are no defects with the gold that is used.


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## Borg_B_Borg (Feb 14, 2006)

Time will tell.  []  The problem is not that any gold plating is "defective" (we all know none of the gold platings are defective) but that gold plating is inherently fragile.  There are only two types of gold parts I have faith in, rolled-gold(or gold-filled) and solid gold.  For anything else that's gold-plated, no amount of "guarantee" is worth the weight of the paper the guarantee is printed on.

Steve



> _Originally posted by nilsatcraft_
> 
> Gold was used on these pens because it is brighter than the Titanium.  The gold plating used on the Emperor and Statesman pens is by no means a thin or weak plating. It is plated much thicker and is guaranteed for life.  Simply put, you won't have any explaining to do because there won't be any problem.  I have not even heard of anybody returning a Statesman or Emperor pen due to plating issues.  That being the case, we have no reason to change to Titanium as there are no defects with the gold that is used.


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## airrat (Feb 15, 2006)

Thanks Nils maybe they can use the IAP members to decide some more kits to offer the Titanium, Rhod/plat ect in.  Ask which ones we want it on more.  I am to the point I will not buy 24k or 10k kits anymore.  I have replaced more clips and nibs for those coatings then they were worth.

I actually have a platinum kit that is wearing off.  However, it is my pen and I use it daily.  Not sure if that is why but I was amazed to see it.


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## TomServo (Feb 16, 2006)

What I would like to see is a company take some initiative on this - say, introduce new kits ONLY in Ti gold (as far as gold platings). If mass production is an issue, releasing a kit only in the coating should result in a lower net cost with the higher overall volume. Not a lower cost than straight 24k but it could make it more competitive in the long run. Having to figure out what plating and which where and stuff and see that a simple TiN plating doubles the price can really get to us hobby turners.

Does CS use a gold over TiN or is it just TiN?


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## nilsatcraft (Feb 16, 2006)

Tom- Our TN Platings are straight TN, no gold on top.  About using a TN only line of pens, the reason we wouldn't be too anxious to do that is because regardless of how many TN, Rhodium or other platings we offer on a particular pen, if it's available in 10k then it's the 10k that will outsell the rest by far.  A lot of the penturners on this and other penturning sites advance quickly- largely due to the amount of information here on the sites- so of course you and I will only want to make pens from the higher end platings but we don't represent the majority.  I'm always amazed at how many 24k twist pens we sell.  At $1.75 per pen, a lot of folks don't care how long the plating lasts as long as it doesn't cost much up front.  I don't think that way but again, different strokes for different folks.


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## Rifleman1776 (Feb 16, 2006)

Nils said, "I'm always amazed at how many 24k twist pens we sell. At $1.75 per pen, a lot of folks don't care how long the plating lasts as long as it doesn't cost much up front."
Nils, at one time, I made the comment that I 'guessed' that to be the case. I was taken to task for saying that. Most detractors respondes saying "I would never.....". What they don't seem to realize is that pen kit customers, for the most part, are home hobby guys that do a lot of things and are not avid pen turners. The members of my wood turning club who make pens only do 24K slims. The kits are cheap and it is cheap to get started. On the down side, when I began this I was enthused about buying 24K kits. The advertising in the catalog made it sound elegant and a lasting item. "epoxy coating for added durability". I did not realize that really meant a soft, quick wearing finish that would be unattractive with little use despite the epoxy coating. Very misleading, as I now know. But, I'm sure it sells lots and lots of slim 24K cheap kits.


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## ed4copies (Feb 16, 2006)

Axiom #1: You get what you pay for.

Usually correct[]

However, I would like to see TiN kits from  more suppliers, since I don't think the cost of the plating is anywhere near as high as the existing sources are demanding-perhaps it's time to look at Europe.

Just a thought!


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## RussFairfield (Feb 16, 2006)

There is one thing missing in this conversation, and that is the thickness of the plating. Gold plating is not inherently bad. It has been used for 100 years on fountain pens that cost a lot more than our kits. The thickness of the plating was important to these old pens, and it is important to us for the kits we buy.

At the price of gold, we are not going to get very much gold on a pen kit that sells for less than $2. It doesn't matter whether it is 10k, 24k, or something else; when the plating is only molecular in thickness, it doesn't take much to remove it. 

We have to keep things in perspective when we talk about platings. We shouldn't expect too much from a kit that cost us less than $2, just as the customer shouldn't expect more than we can offer from a pen that sells for less than $20. The suppliers shouldn't put meaningless guarantees of their kits, and we shouldn't make unreasonable claims about durability.

Personally, I prefer the Gold plating because of its lighter and brighter color than any substitute; and I have come to the conclusion that all gold plating is not the same because all plating is not the same thickness. There is a difference in the plating between similar kits from different manufacturers, there are differences between the kits from the same manufacturer, and there are differences in the plating process that was used. Some kits have a thicker plating on them and they last longer, and I have some personal opinions on which those are. I never share these opinions because I have no proof should anyone want to argue the merits of the various kits and platings; and there will always be someone whose experience is different from mine.

I always feel that I have been trapped by the manufacturers of pen kits and their goal of least cost. If they were to offer a thicker more durable Gold plating now, it would cost more, and I would have to charge more for the same pen if I were to use it. Therein lies the problem. Nobody could tell the difference. My pens would look exactly the same as those in the next booth with thinner cheaper plating that are selling for $10 less than mine. Guess who will sell the most pens?? 

We should always match the quality of the finish to that of the plating we are using. We get into trouble when we put a $50 finish on a $20 pen. It gives us false expectations, and it gives our customer false expectations. It isn't unreasonable to me that the plating and the finish should deteriorate at the same rate and at the same time. When the finish still looks good after the plating has worn off, everyone is upset because we see the plating as being inferior. When they deteriorate at the same rate, there is no problem because we see that as being what we would expect from a $20 pen that was made from a $2 kit.

And, that's my opinion on plating. We get what we pay for, and shouldn't expect any more than that.


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## gerryr (Feb 16, 2006)

I would really like to see the manufacturers offer platings similar to what's used by fishing rod component makers.  Check this link and you'll see what I mean.
http://www.americantackle.us/docs/sfguides.htm 
Remember that in some cases there is very abrasive line running through these guides over and over and the coatings hold up extremely well.  I think it would be really cool to have a kit with holographic plating available as another option.  Knife makers are now offering this kind of stuff on scales and blades.


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## JimGo (Feb 16, 2006)

I see the advantages for beginners to having inexpensive kits, which inherently means lesser quality platings.  When I started, I was mostly concerned about the cost of each kit.  But as I've progressed, I've realized that if I'm going to be putting all this time and effort into creating a quality pen that will hold up for a long time (which is my goal with each pen I make), I want components that will hold up as well.  I have thus moved on from the 10K kits generally, and have started buying TiGold and other, more durable platings for the various kits.  

My concern is similar to what Russ expressed; imagine that I'm at a show and my pen is held next to someone else's.  Let's take Russ, for example.  Now, I'm sure Russ's pens are at least as well crafted as mine in every respect - in fact, I have a great deal of respect for Russ and his craftmanship and artisanship, and hope to reach his level some day, so in reality I would expect his to be better than mine.  But, let's say that I had a REALLY good day, and Russ has a REALLY bad day, so the pens were comparable, and that the materials were inherently equally beautiful as well.  But, let's say Russ used a 10K gold finish kit, whereas I am using my TiGold.  My kit cost more, so unless I'm willing to charge less for my time, I've got to pass that extra cost on to my customers, and thus my pen will be priced higher than Russ's.  When the customer holds the pens next to each other, I would like there to be a subtle difference between my kit and Russ's (other than the color), so the buyer can see the difference between the kits.  This way I can point to the differing style and explain what that means with respect to platings and their durability.  Then the customer can make an informed choice about which pen is worth the price to them.  Some may still choose the less expensive pen, and that's fine, but where the kits all look the same except a barely distinguishable color change (the TiGold kits actually look to me like they have a thinner gold plating, because of the lighter color), it's hard to get the customer to believe you.


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## Rifleman1776 (Feb 16, 2006)

A factor not mentioned is that gold is not even necessary to get a gold appearance. There are some great alloys available that are a beautiful gold color and very durable. A friend bought a fraternal ring several months ago for $35.00. Wears it constantly, still shiny, new looking gold color. Hasn't turned his finger green either. High school and college class rings are now offered in a variety of alloys that are beautiful, more durable than gold and a whole whoop cheaper.  Appearance and durability are what count. Howzzaboutit suppliers, a gold-looking beautiful, reasonably priced, durable alloy?


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## RussFairfield (Feb 16, 2006)

I saw a "quality" lesson at an outdoor show last summer. There were 2 guys with booths devoted to pens and similar things that we can make from kits. One was selling those he had made himself at reasonable prices. The other was selling imported pens and things that looked the same, but were selling for less than 1/2 the price. Guess who had the booth that was crowded with people for all 3 days, guess who sold the most pens, and guess who didn't didn't sell enough to recover their show fee? 

It had nothing to do with quality because, other than the wood grain, they looked the same. It had everything to do with one selling the same thing for 1/2 the price of the other.


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## huntersilver (Feb 16, 2006)

I offer both to my customers.  I have 10K pens, Ti, Platinum and 22K.  I try to steer them towards the Ti or Platinum pens, and I point out the advantages of the superior plating.  But at the end of the day they do have the choice.


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## huntersilver (Feb 16, 2006)

I also only apply to well juried shows that have a commitment of quality by the promoter; as to avoid the comment made by Russ.


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