# Nibs



## Mac In Oak Ridge (May 19, 2005)

First to set the rules.

A nib is the little metal pointed thing that puts the ink on the paper when you are using a fountain pen.

A nib is not the whole end of a fountain pen that has a threaded end to screw into the pen body. That is the nib holder with the nib installed in it.

If Craft Supplies can sell nib holders with the nib in them for $4.50 each, the nib would be less than half that price. I am thinking in the $1.50 or less range.

I have looked for quite a while for nibs.  I can find web sites that sell nibs for $50, $60 $100+, mostly antique or rare ones.  Someone somewhere must sell the nibs, the little metal pointy thing without the nib holder.  I am talking about the nibs that we get in standard pen kits.  I wouldn't mind putting even a $10 nib on a $15 pen kit to improve the writing ability.  I cannot put a $60 nib on a $15 pen kit.  

I haven't seen every fountain pen kit out there but every one I have seen uses the same nib.  No matter what plating or what source of the kit they all have the same nib in them.

Where can you get the nibs? I'd by 10-12 of each grade F, M, L if I could find the dang things.


----------



## driften (May 19, 2005)

Anthony is having some made by a company in Germany that makes nibs for most of the high end pen companies in the world. He said in his thread he might sell some of them. Check out his post on his Jack Knife pen in the show off your pens area...


----------



## btboone (May 19, 2005)

Mac, also check with Richard Binder of www.richardspens.com  He is very knowledgeable about this stuff and has quite a collection of them.


----------



## woodscavenger (May 19, 2005)

I am by no means an expert but in the reading I have done (much of it here a few months back) and in taking apart a few of my own nibs/holders it appears that the nib needs to be matched to the holder in size, curvature and location of the slit (forgot the term) in order for the ink flow to be precise.  That would make it difficult unless there are only a few sizes out there and our pens happen to have those sizes.


----------



## DCBluesman (May 19, 2005)

Mac--I understand your point BUT believe me when I tell you that there are many of us who have made some pretty exhaustive research on this.  

Tony Turchetta found ONE manufacturer who was willing to make ONE nib size that will fit ONE nib adapter.  This manufacturer is taking a risk by allowing a small run (anything under 500 is a small run in the nib world).  These nibs will be in the $50-75 range--nib only.  

I spoke with Namiki who doesn't want to talk about anything less than a 500 nib run per nib width and at that price they indicated that the price would probably run about $100 per nib.  Pelikan will sell us (or anyone) their nibs for $137 each.

Russ Fairfield discusses this at length, including his discussions with Richard Kleinhenz (head honcho of the Yahoo penturners and of the Pen Makers Guild) in this link.  http://www.penturners.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4182&SearchTerms=fountain,pen  

If CSUSA or Berea or the others could find a great nib for us at $10 each, I believe they are smart enough to seize the opportunity.  None of this is meant to stop anyone from looking and talking, but I think the search will be a very long and difficult journey based on results to date.


----------



## PenWorks (May 19, 2005)

I have looked at allot and talked to allot of pen companies concerning finding gold nibs for our pens. My original quest was to find a gold nib that could be marketed to penmakers. But by doing this, you really narrow the playing field. As the feed system has to mate the specific nib housings we use. It would be far easier to obtain just the gold nib, or just the gold nib with a feeder housing and custom make your pen to it. I have done this with several nibs. But as I said, I wanting something in the way, where if you were marking a Gentlemens/Statesmen pen with a steel nib and your client said he wanted a gold nib, you could just unscrew the nib and feeder and screw in the gold nib and feeder. I was albe to put this together in regards to the two pens mentioned above.

The whole problem with the Jr/Baron pen, was finding a feeder system that would work. Getting the gold nib is possible, but finding a feeder and nib combo to screw in the current housing was not. I am still researching this. No company is going to custom make me a feeder housing for the quanity I want. Another idea I had was to get the Bock company to make me some good steel nibs, they had a 5,000 minimum quanity  for steel!

Also, there are few nib companies in the world. Bock makes nibs for allot of companies, I heard Lou throw out a figure like 70%, I would believe this. I have looked at feeders from France, Asia & Germany. I still have more leads to follow up on.

But the size of the Gent nib is a more standard nib size in the pen world, (if there is such a thing as standard) So by having a gold nib allready mated to the feeder is a start. We allready have a housing it will screw into. I am trying to work on some other housings where you can use the same nib and feeder and screw it into housings for other style pens. 

So there is my speel for now and I'm sticking to it. I can't give no pricing details yet, because I donot have the final costs. There were allot of variables as well, the spot cost of gold the day the order is placed, the Euro conversion ,shipping and duty, I am hoping to have them for the Provo event. Also, I think my bigger market for these nibs are the pen repair folks, as they are limited to a few dealers for gold nibs.


----------



## btboone (May 20, 2005)

Lou,
I did get some Pelikan gold nibs from Richard Binder for $50 each.  He had some steel ones for $18 if I remember.


----------



## DCBluesman (May 20, 2005)

Wow!  I'll have to get in touch with him.


----------



## Mac In Oak Ridge (May 20, 2005)

OK, we have basically three major suppliers of pen kits in the US.  Each one of them sell fountain pen kits.  All those kits from all three sources have nibs in them that if not identical are obviously from the same source.

Where ever the three major suppliers get their pen kits from has barrels of fountain pen nibs sitting there for production.  All they need to do is dip a scoop into one of those barrels, dump it in a plastic bag and put it in someones shipment of pen parts.

If you figure that the place you are buying your pen kits is marking up those kits by 50% and a kit can sell for $10 that means that they are paying $5 for the kit.  ALL of the kit, all of the parts and pieces the bags and the shipping cost to them.  

At the original source of the kit that guy is marking up the kit 50% to sell it to the US supplier, that means the whole kit is costing them $2.50.  ALL of the kit, all of the parts and pieces.

The nib cost to the original source of the kit is less than $0.25.  There is no reason to pay $60 for it.  All we need is one of the major suppliers of pen kits in the US to contact their source of kits and ask for a coffee mug full of nibs.  There should be no reason that one nib would sell for more than $2.


----------



## PenWorks (May 20, 2005)

Thanks, Mac, you made me try something last night. Take a close look at this pen, rather NIB. (but the pen did come out nice for just a quikie thought). Notice it is a steel Conklin nib. writes pretty good, for just the little test I did from last night. So here is your custom steel nib pen. 

I can get all the custom steel nibs you want for .75 cents (nib only) 
Problem.......To have the stamping die made for the nib , about 800.00
Quanity needed to place the order, 5,000 per writing grade  (about 4K) 
If you want the matching feeder, nib & feeder & housing assembled for you, add 5.00 to that. The feeder & housing actually cost more than the steel nib,

The gold nib I have coming, will now fit the Ligero as well, you have Mac to thank for that one [] I will try the conversion for the El Grande this weekend.

Mac, why do you want a coffee cup full of the same nibs we allready can get from the kit suppliers? I thought we wanted to improve on this.

One of the biggest trade shows for pen suppliers (pens, parts, kits) is in Hong Kong in October, that's the place to be. But unless you don't plan on ordering 1000's, don't bother going.


----------



## Mac In Oak Ridge (May 20, 2005)

Anthony,  As usual the pen is beautiful.  I really admire your workmanship.

Years ago you could go into any Rexall Drug Store and somewhere on the counter was a display of pen nibs.  You could hook your thumb nail on the little ball on the end of the nib of the pen in your pocket and pull the nib out.  Choose another style, or width of line and slide it in, pay $0.50 or less and walk out the door with your pen and a new nib in it.

Fast forward to today.  You now buy a fountain pen kit.  You make the pen and find a customer.  The customer says, "Gee Wiz, this has a medium point on it and I want a fine point."  You hook your thumbnail on the little knob on the point of the pen and pull the nib out.  Then you stand there with a dumb look on your face cause you can't slide a fine point nib back in.  

You can tell your customer to go to one of the neat web sites that you can find on the net and pay $50-$150 for a nib and then have the person selling you that nib custom fit it to your $50 hand made pen for another $35.  

I am sure that you won't sell that pen to the customer when he does a little math that tells him that a $50 pen will cost him as much as $240 plus postage both ways to get it to write a fine line.

Craft Supplies has nib holder/ink feed sections with nibs in them for $4.50.  The nib part of that assembly likely is around 20% of the value.

All I want to do is:

If I drop the end of the pen when assembling it, be able to replace the nib.

If I want to sell a fine line instead of a medium line or a broad line nib to be able to change the nib.

A fountain pen nut will pay big bucks for a solid gold or antique nib.  Your normal customer that will walk by a pen display won't.  But I you could accommodate that customer for a reasonable price you may be able to sell another pen.

Right now my only choice is to pay $4.50 for a nib holder and pull the nib out and toss it. Or to buy a second pen kit pull the nib out of it and toss the rest of the kit in the parts box.  Both options are not reasonable for a $1.00 item.


----------



## PenWorks (May 20, 2005)

Mac, it all comes down to numbers. If I had an extra 15K to order steel nibs in three writing grades, I could sell them to you all day long for .75-1.00 and even make a dime.
But I would end up holding an extra 14,900 nibs I couldn't get rid off. [B)]

I stock all the writing grades CSU has, for the money 4.50 and having the option to buy just one and the ability to just screw out the old and screw in the new, their price is right. I do not charge my client any extra to swap the nib out. In fact, they ussually will take the medium nib that comes with the pen and I sell them an extra nib with a converter so for only 12.00 nib - 5.00 for the converter, 17.00 the have an extra pen!

The steel nibs you spoke of above, went away with Rexall [] I haven't heard or seen a Rexall store for years.


----------



## DCBluesman (May 20, 2005)

I think $.50 nibs have gone the way of penny candy. []


----------



## Mac In Oak Ridge (May 20, 2005)

And to continue the stroll down memory lane. 

Easterbrook had a pen called the Model J.  With it you could grasp the nib and feed assembly section between two fingers and unscrew it.  It came right out of your fountain pen.  You could go to their nib display and choose among 33 different nib styles that would fit your pen.  You chose the one you wanted and screwed it into the feed assembly holder and you had another style of pen or replaced the one that you dropped point first on the floor.

Thirty three different nibs and you could change to any one of them in about 20 seconds.  I have one of those pens in my pocket right now.  It has the Style 1551 nib in it, called the "Student" grade.  There were accountant, italic, music broad, extra extra fine, casual writing, formal writing, flexible, extra flexible nibs and so on.

The pen was not expensive and still isn't expensive if you look around.  You can still get the nib/feed assemblies on ebay.  I don't know exactly when they quit making them but I suspect in the late 1950's or so.


----------



## RussFairfield (May 20, 2005)

This is a topic near to my heart, but I have some philosophical differences of opinion on the topic of fountain pens, their nibs, and the use of gold vs. steel as the material to make them. I see a greater challenge than just finding a better nib to put in the pens that we are already making. 

Everyone is looking for a gold nib to put into a "Kit Pen". The problem is that it is still a pen that was made from a kit, and it is easily recognized as a "kit pen" by anyone knowledgable in fountain pens. The only thing that separates one "kit" pen from another is the craftsmanship, the plating, and the wood or other material that was used for making the barrel. Other than that, they are all the same.

The nibs that are available from our suppliers are a good quality steel nib for a good quality "kit" pen that sells in the $75 price range. We are competing with a Waterman that I can buy at Office Depot for about $35. The writing quality is almost the same. Adding a gold nib will not make either of them into something they are not. 

There is another problem. Most of the buying public have never used a fountain pen, and they find that writing with one can be a challenge. Adding the gold nib does nothing to make learning to use a fountain pen an easier task.

Here is the problem. The market for the gold nib are those folks who have experience with and know how to use a fountain pen. These people who are willing to pay the price for a good quality gold nib also want and expect something more than a pen that was made from a kit. Adding the gold nib will not make the "kit" pen into a $250 pen, regardless of how much we paid for the nib. 

Bottom line. Putting a gold nib in a "kit" pen is like putting racing stripes on a Chevette and trying to make everyone think it is a Corvette. It doesn't work. A pen with a gold nib has to look like a pen that has a a gold nib. It has to be something special, and that means it has to be something unique that distinguishes it from the "kit pen" that sells for $75.  

Once we accept that the custom pen with the "gold nib" is something special, we will have to start making pens that do not have the apearance of a kit. The next logical step is making our own parts. Once we get to that point in our pen making there are no restrictions on the sources for nibs and reservoirs that we can use. It also removes the upper limit that we can charge for our creations. 

That is how I see the custom pen and gold nibs. 
Feel free to disagree.


----------



## btboone (May 20, 2005)

I agree with your sentiments Russ.  I brought my two titanium pens to the Atlanta Pen Show to get feedback from the people that live this stuff, and every one of them said, almost in unison, that my nib NEEDED to be a gold nib instead of the kit pen nib I had for the prototype.  They didn't bother to try it out or look very closely at it; they just stated what the customer would expect.  Whether or not it actually makes a difference, they certainly drove home the fact that there's an implied difference in customer perception.  There is certainly some anti "kit" bias amongst the show folks, and from the sounds of it, from their customers as well.  

They've psyched me into trying to think so far outside the box on designs that I'm shooting myself in the foot because the designs are so complex that I don't have time to make them.  I wonder if I should be trying to do "normal" pens and actually sell a few or continue to try for strange high end ones and try to find time to work out the designs.


----------



## Old Griz (May 20, 2005)

I have to agree with Russ on this... putting a $50+ nib on a $12.50 kit is not going to make it a custom pen.. it is just going to be a kit pen with an expensive nib... 
Will it write better?? Maybe to someone who really knows and uses fountain pens a lot... but in all probability the person who is not a fountain pen junkie will probably not know the difference... 
Tony has been doing some absolutely fantastic things with parts from kits to create truly one of a kid custom fountain pens... putting a gold nib in this type of work is right and good.  The market he is aiming at is the person who truly loves a fountain pen and can appreciate the custom quality of the work..
Personally, I have never written with a fountain pen with a high quality gold nib, so I probably would not see a whole lot of difference right now... maybe later on when I get to Tony's level of expertise in customizing pens and use a FP all day instead of occassionally I will appreciate it... 
But I know that the vast majority of my clients would not know the difference... even if I told them and allowed them to try one against the other..


----------



## Mac In Oak Ridge (May 20, 2005)

Thank you Russ, well said.  

Boone, why not both? Time, I know!

All that is said so far still doesn't resolve why we can't purchase the dang nibs that are furnished with the pen kits we all use.  That is all I want to do, purchase the same nib that comes with the kit. The nib by it's self, fine, medium and broad.  I just want a little variety to be able to offer with the pens and a way to repair one should the nib get damaged.  They are cheap steel nibs, the look nice, for the pen we are making and selling they are correct.  Why the heck can't the kit suppliers get some from their sources and offer them?  Nils?


----------



## btboone (May 20, 2005)

Yup, time's the main thing, but I also need to consider what my niche might be.  Is it $1500 collector pens that most people can't machine or $75 pens that are easy to do?  I can probably do one or the other, but doing both side by side probably won't work.

One of the catalog offers the nibs for El Grande.  Maybe it's Berea?


----------



## JimGo (May 20, 2005)

Bruce, you could always do your "normal" pens under a pseudonym, or a "down-line" brand, this way people don't get confused.  You can use those to help finance the development of the other pens.


----------



## btboone (May 20, 2005)

That may be a good option Jim.  It would be very hard to get the quality and reputation up to the point needed to sell the high end pens, and I wouldn't want people to do price or feature comparisons with the easier "kit" pens.


----------



## wdcav1952 (May 20, 2005)

> _Originally posted by btboone_
> <br />Yup, time's the main thing, but I also need to consider what my niche might be.  Is it $1500 collector pens that most people can't machine or $75 pens that are easy to do?  I can probably do one or the other, but doing both side by side probably won't work.
> 
> One of the catalog offers the nibs for El Grande.  Maybe it's Berea?



Bruce, it is Berea.  Beartoothwoods.com is one of their resellers.  Ernie has always done well by me, and he does offer the different size nibs for the El Grande.  I know that this is not what the original post asked for, but it does give the flexibility for changing nibs.  With the El Grande, I will occasionally buy roller ball kits and purchase a few fountain pen nibs to give me some flexibility with respect to what the buyer may want.

BTW Bruce, go with the $1500 market.  At that, some of the work you have produced it likely underpriced.


----------



## woodscavenger (May 20, 2005)

Bruce, good to see you back. I wondered where you went.  After your comment about complex designs it made sense.  I'll bet you have so many cool CAD drawings cooking that you can hardly sleep.[] 
Does anyone know for sure if the Craft USA nibs fit in the Baron?


----------



## PenWorks (May 21, 2005)

Shane, the CS Jr type nibs will fit the Baron. You can buy the other writing grades from CS, unscrew the housing cover, the part that is plated and put it on the other CS nib to make it match. I like using the Baron nibs on the Statesmen Jr pen, because I think the two tone nib on the Baron is sharp looking.

Russ is right, but it still doesn't change the fact, that any time you can improve on the kit pen, you have a better product. A Statesmen is not your typical 12.00 kit. It does make a very nice formable pen when done right. Now turners who make and sell this pen get from 95 to 125 for this pen. Investing 50-75 for a gold nib, puts this pen in the 250.00 range. Compared to other pen companies offerings in this price range, I think for 250.00 we are putting out a product that more than competes with them, if not passing them by.


----------



## DCBluesman (May 21, 2005)

Between Tony and Russ, I believe they are pointing us on the right path.  Component (kit) pens will always have their detractors... regardless of the nibs... regardless of the barrel material... regardless of the workmanship.  The trick here is to recognize that we still have a product that is perceived as having excellent value when executed properly.  In all likelihood I will try a few gold nibs on some customized component kits, but I think my market will still be (in order) ballpoints and rollerballs followed by fountain pens.  I will let folks know that a quality steel nib is still an excellent device for applying ink to paper and I will encourage them to "try, then compare".  Dollar for dollar, we can hold our own.

In taking this back to the original intent of the thread, I ordered replacement nibs from CSUSA and some Lamy pens (through Tony).  I wrote with all of these different nibs for over an hour this morning.  The quality of the Lamy steel nib is slightly better than the Baron nib or the CSUSA nibs, but all of the nibs did extremely well for me...and I most often use gold-nibbed fountain pens.  I can ajust and adapt the Lamy and the CSUSA nib holder/nib combinations to give me plenty of different feels to the fountain pen.  All it takes now is the imagination to adapt these additional components to create new designs that move away from the traditional "kit" look.


----------



## woodscavenger (May 21, 2005)

Lou has nailed it.  I think the comments about our cheap kits being the downfall may be a little overstated.  Why?  Many of the people shooting for that higher market are not just taking a Baron kit, turning bushing to bushing, throwing on a couple of coats of friction polish and calling it good.  We have some people doing some amazing work. Most of the pens appear to be headed to the desk jockeys which means the clip can come off (i.e. losing another "cheap trim part") and all that a cusomter really sees is the pen blank material (wood or otherwise), the writing nib, and the threads. Everything else is gone in most of the closed end pens that a lot of guys seem to be doing.  I think if you nail the nib/nib holder and you have smooth feeling threads your good to go.


----------



## ed4copies (May 23, 2005)

Great thread, lots of you obviously know about nibs.

Can you tell me, then, if there is a compatibility chart (or if one of you can make one up).  I can't believe kit pens use a completely different threading system from everyone else.  If I unscrew the nib assembly from a Gentlemen's pen, I have the nib and some plastic in my hand (call it whatever is appropriate).  Is the dimension and thread on this plastic piece the same as Schaeffer, Lamy, Mont Blanc, or anything else?  I don't have to have this assembly with me, but if I can tell the customer, yes YOU can replace this nib assy, easily, with a nib you buy off E-Bay, here is the compatible, I will sell more pens. Not many more, but there are collectors who know exactly what type of nib (18kt gold is popular) they want.  They will, I believe, be willing to go buy their own.

I have been successful in selling the concept that my pen body is hand-made (All those high-end companies have to make at least HUNDREDS of one design, I may make 50-which product is more exclusive to own?)

I differ with the Chevette analogy, I prefer to think of and refer to my pens as the Excalibur-each one hand made.  If you as a customer would feel better giving me a thousand dollars for it, I will graciously accept.  Because I have no advertising (as the high-end pens do), nor do I have import tariffs, nor distributors, nor retailers-I am ABLE to sell high quality for less-and I prefer to give you an unbelievable pen BODY.  As for pen nibs-because of the high number needed for economical production quantity-buy them from a nib expert!

One other aside on cost of gold (one of the postings refered to cost of gold on the "spot market").  We have all our stained glass items gold plated after they are produced.  The cost of this process for a 4" suncatcher is a couple dollars.  This is 24kt "pure" gold.  Barrel plating a nib should cost CENTS, not dollars.  Would a gold-plated steel nib be useful?

Once again, I am NOT a fountain pen user, so sorry I am so ill-informed.  I hope to learn from all of you and thank-you for taking the time to read this.  [][]


----------



## driften (May 23, 2005)

> _Originally posted by ed4copies_
> <br />
> One other aside on cost of gold (one of the postings refered to cost of gold on the "spot market").  We have all our stained glass items gold plated after they are produced.  The cost of this process for a 4" suncatcher is a couple dollars.  This is 24kt "pure" gold.  Barrel plating a nib should cost CENTS, not dollars.  Would a gold-plated steel nib be useful?



What people are talking about is not gold plated steel nibs but nibs made from solid gold. That is why the "spot" price matters.


----------



## PenWorks (May 23, 2005)

Ed, there is no compatibility chart, and if one was made up, it would be a real short list, maybe 4 pens might be on it from the kits we buy.

Same with major pen manufactures, there is no interchanging between parts, they all have there propietery sytems. Some even design the feed to take only their cartridges and converters so you have to buy THEIR refills. [xx(]


----------



## driften (May 23, 2005)

I also like the idea of having an adapter so that we can thread in other companies production nibs. That gives the buyer the ability to use any nib from that company. The problem there is so many manufactures that don't use cartridges and it could be hard to build piston (or other) fill versions of our pens. It would be cool though to be able to support Pelikan nibs (or something like them) that go from vintage to modern with the same threads. Many modern companies do use cartidges (and converters) so that would be the place to start.


----------



## ed4copies (May 23, 2005)

Jeff,

Racine, WI used to be a hub of activity for metal jobs.  Now, the numbers are down greatly.  However, if you nib guys can determine which one to five manufacturers make the nicest selection of nib assys, your idea sounds like a winner.   

I would be happy to do some research on having an adapter made.  Most of the shops are "job shops" now, many specialize in prototyping.  Give me direction on the optimum result and I will go to work on run length, pricing and general feasibility. It sounds like an interesting project.


----------



## RussFairfield (May 23, 2005)

> _Originally posted by ed4copies_
> <br />
> I can't believe kit pens use a completely different threading system from everyone else.  If I unscrew the nib assembly from a Gentlemen's pen, I have the nib and some plastic in my hand (call it whatever is appropriate).



Whether by accident or design, you are holding a nib assembly that is unique and unlike any other in the world. The issue here is "Direct Replacement", unscrew one and screw in another. There have been several people looking for several years, and nobody has found one, the manufacturers have not been willing to make one, and I doubt that there are very many kit makers who would be willing to buy them. 

There are two issues that make a direct replacement possible. One is the threads. The other is the reservoir or cartridge. Both must be the same for them to be interchangeable. There are several nib assemblies available with the same threads, Pelikan as an example, but they all use a different reservoir assembly that will not fit into the kit pen. There are also commercial pens that use the same universal reservoir and cartridge as the kits, but they all use a different thread. There would also be several nib options if the kit pen used a bladder and lever reservoir.

There are several solutions to providing a gold nib on a kit pen if we are able and willing to either modify the nib to fit the kit, or modify the kit to fit the nib. All of the discussions on these forums have been around making a nib that fits the kit, and having someone else provide that that for us.

The other solution is to modify the kit to fit the nib and reservoir. I have been doing that by machining a new fitting for the end of pen barrel with threads that will accomodate the upgrade nib that I have selected. I have adopted a pen style that makes this an easy modification, and with the addition of a custom clip there is no visible resemblance to a kit pen. 

There are also many different reasons for wanting to fit a better nib into a kit pen. I have made a personal choice to provide a pen for a customer who is willing to buy a unique pen at a price that allows me to make them at a profit. And, that is getting me into making a pen whose only resemblance to the kit is that it uses brass tubes inside of turned wood barrels.

There is nothing wrong with making a kit pen that is of superior quality, whether it be with a stock steel nib or a custom gold one. But, we shouldn't forget that the superior quality of fit and finish has to come before using the gold nib.


----------



## Efletche (May 23, 2005)

I don't know if this is helpful to anyone, but this site is offering 25 Vintage Nibs Assortment for $19.95 US. The link is:
http://hans.presto.tripod.com/store/nibs0001.html
Hope it is helpful.


----------



## ed4copies (May 23, 2005)

Russ
I agree with your position-here is my "dilemma".

Two shows lately, different collectors have seen my Statesman pen with gold-love it, etc.  But they are fountain pen collectors.  THEY have preferences for 18kt nib.  

Both have said, $200 is fair for the pen (stabilized water buffalo, all black, no marks), they will happily buy their own nib (they feel the pen is worth over $500, so the nib added to $200 is still OK).  NOW, I want to give them a good answer.  I have always had difficulty with "It's Impossible!"  I CAN accept, "It's really, really hard!!"  And, carrying your answer with me in a print-out WILL help.

Thanks!!


----------



## Rifleman1776 (May 23, 2005)

This is digressing off-topic a bit. But following this thread is on one hand interesting, but on the other hand depressing. You guys are talking about meeting the $250.00 to $1500.00 market while other, me for one, are still trying to find a way to sell $20.00 pens to our local market. In the store that has my display, folks "Ooh-Aah!" over the beauty of the pens, then go buy Bics at Wal-Mart. Oh, well.


----------



## RussFairfield (May 23, 2005)

I understand your problem. I was asked the same question several years ago, and I had no answer. Now I am getting closer, and the only difference is in how we chose to find the answer. I have chosen to make a pen with the 18k gold nib, put the $500 price tag on it, and offer no options. 

It was also my choice to make a pen that didn't look like it started its life as a kit. There is never any doubt that this is a custom pen. The words "kit pen" are never any part of the conversation with a potential buyer.


----------



## ed4copies (May 23, 2005)

Frank,

The craft (Art) show market is very diverse.  I see thousands of mid-aged women to every pen collector.  But, when that chance comes along, I'd like to be knowledgeable.  The expertise on this forum seems like a great way to get there from here.

I certainly don't know ANYTHING about your marketing-but I can tell you I would wait much longer for prospects if I stayed in Wisconsin, that's why I am willing to pay a ton to do shows in Chicago (see today's post in marketing for this weeks sad story).  So, I am trying to move upscale.  I have sold maybe 4 pens in excess of $100 and ALL of them have been as a result of knowledge gained here put to work at shows, in the last 2 months.  Before that, I also never sold a pen over $50.

Thank-you to everyone who has helped me hone my skills, both selling and pen-creating!

This does NOT mean I know what YOU should do, only meant to relay information on how MY sales have changed.


----------



## driften (May 23, 2005)

Rich, I for one would be happy to make the pen around the nib. I feel the less "kit" like our product is and the more "useable art" the better. It is a diffrent market then kits market but its one I want to enter some day.

Your cartridge based Bexley should make some nice pens. What do you have to do to thread those nibs into the pen bodies you make? What size pen work it work with? Does it work on a body the size of a Baron or does it need to be a larger size of pen?


----------



## PenWorks (May 23, 2005)

Frank, it's just like your gorgous fiddleback long gun stock. How many folks are going to spend 500-1,500 for a rifle stock? There isn't a huge market out there, but it is still there. As far as your pens in the store...pens don't allways sell themselves,  they have to be SOLD. []


----------



## Rifleman1776 (May 23, 2005)

Ed, Anthony
I understand your perspective. And I know life has it's trade-offs. By choice I left the Chicago area in 1970 when money-making opportunities were falling in my lap (fashion photog for Women's Wear Daily, marketing and promotion manager for Chicago Bulls, etc.) for a life in the Ozarks where some folks were still earning only $3.00 a day (not hour, day). We are in different markets. I may start doing some of the craft show circuit but only after I determine that, after expenses, a profit will be turned. We all make choices. Money didn't keep me in Chi Town and it will never lure me back. Choices have consequences. Not being able to sell $20.00 pens may be one of them. I have local friends who gave up pen making and other wood working crafts for that same reason. I'm sure most here  would recognize a couple names if I posted. That's life.


----------



## arehrlich (May 23, 2005)

RussFairfield,

I would certainly appreciate information on the Bexley nibs - where to get in contact with them, as well as how you attach the nib to your pen body.

Any info would be very much appreciated.

Alan


----------



## woodscavenger (May 23, 2005)

Russ, we all appreciate your insights.  What are the chances of us seeing a photo of one of your unique pens?


----------



## nilsatcraft (May 25, 2005)

Ed4Copies let me know about this thread so I thought I'd give a brief update. We have heard our customers saying that they'd like more varieties of fountain nibs, including higher end nibs.  As our line of high end pens grows, so does the demand for nicer nibs.  At the moment, we're awaiting a shimpment of samples of higher end nibs to investigate.  We anticipate carrying more nibs in our Fall Catalog but for now we're just doing our homework.  If I find out anything new, I'll let everyone know.


----------



## Old Griz (May 25, 2005)

Thanks Nils, I figured you guys were going to try to help.. you always do... 
I for one would definately be interested in seeing what you come up with... please keep us informed..


----------



## DCBluesman (May 25, 2005)

Not intending to steal anyone's thunder, but Arizona Silhouette is also adding replacement nibs for the Baron to it's online catalog.  They should be there real soon!


----------



## driften (May 25, 2005)

Really cool Nils! I am also been waiting for BB's Baron replacement nibs.
I am also looking for any way to put other high end nibs into pens like the Bexley nibs.

Nils, anything CSUSA can do to help us sell to the collector market as well as the current market would be great!


----------



## RussFairfield (May 25, 2005)

Who says these Vendors don't listen? When the volume is sufficient for them to see the prospect of some $$'s, they will do something. There are other folks who are also looking at the same market, so we may have multiple choices in a few months. 

Several of you have asked me about the Bexley nibs. The Bexley nib has a thread that is 8mm dia. X 0.7mm pitch, and that doesn't match any kit that is available on the market, and it not a common metric tap size in any of the tool catalogs. I would suggest waiting for the nibs from Craft Supplies or whoever else chooses to supply them because they will be sized to fit the kits that they are selling. 

We just returned from being away from home for 11-weeks, so give me a couple weeks before asking any personal questions about pens. I holding off on everything in the shop intil the trees are trimmed, the weeds are dead, the grass is cut, and the motorhome is washed and cleaned. Then I have to remember where I was in the shop when we left.


----------



## ed4copies (May 25, 2005)

Russ,

Having sold my motorhome (in Wisconsin, upkeep is STUPID), I would really LOVE to help you wash one, But, alas, it's a bit of a trip to Idaho.[8D][8D]

Thanks for the info and good luck on the lawn!


----------



## JimGo (May 25, 2005)

Russ, where are your priorities???? []  Thank for all the great contributions you make, both here and on your site.

I'm an electrical engineer by training, so this mechanical stuff is kinda Greek to me, but I wonder if one of our metalworking guys might not be able to make an appropriate tap and re-sell it here.


----------



## arehrlich (May 25, 2005)

Russ, welcome back. Sounds like a long time on the road.  We'll look forward to your insight.

Alan


----------



## scubaman (May 25, 2005)

> _Originally posted by JimGo_
> <br />I'm an electrical engineer by training, so this mechanical stuff is kinda Greek to me, but I wonder if one of our metalworking guys might not be able to make an appropriate tap and re-sell it here.


You can make taps for use on plastic fairly easily with a metal lathe.  You can also get custom taps ordered.  Check out e.g. etaps.com  But just having the tap is not all that's necessary - it's one necessary piece.  Plenty of more opportunities or challenges to incorporating e.g. a Bexley nib into a pen.  I sort of suspect that you will not have a complete solution offered up on a silver platter any time real soon - and I'm sure it's not unwillingness to share.  Even for a supplier it's not just a simple matter to just order a part and be done. If you're looking for a quick solution you gotta put in the hours...  I've had a Bexley nib for a while, in fact I steered Russ there, I tried making a section to fit it and failed with my first attempt - and simply have not had the time for the next iteration yet.  Of course it can be done - but it requires development


----------



## btboone (May 25, 2005)

Sounds like it is an interesting challenge Rich.  What are the issues that needed to be overcome on that one?


----------



## esheffield (May 25, 2005)

Here's a guy I came across making custom pens using Bexley nibs. Looks like he's making/having made everything else in the pens e.g. clips, finials, etc. Interesting stuff.

http://www.onlyonecreations.com/


----------



## btboone (May 25, 2005)

I met that guy at the Atlanta pen show.  I recognized the cow pen complete with udder.


----------



## DCBluesman (May 25, 2005)

I'm fairly certain he was at the DC show last year.  As I recall, he takes the nib assembly from damaged pens and builds his pens around them.


----------



## scubaman (May 25, 2005)

> _Originally posted by btboone_
> <br />Sounds like it is an interesting challenge Rich.  What are the issues that needed to be overcome on that one?


Bruce, with your background in mechanical design and machining this is not a problem.  For someone to think all you need is a tap and you can use that nib is just not realistic.  What are you going to cut that thread into?  The Bexley assembly is a complete assembly of nib, feed and a houseing - but it still needs to go into a grip section.  You need to make that section, plus something with the right internal and external threads.  And you still want to use a cap somehow.  It's not a simple drop-in assembly, that's all


----------



## DCBluesman (May 25, 2005)

> _Originally posted by scubaman_
> It's not a simple drop-in assembly, that's all


Tap.  Tap holder (to get the tap straight).  Die.  Die holder (to keep the die straight).  Pressure fitting for nib.  Cap seal.  There's a lot more to this than I expected when I started out.  And I STILL don't have a working model!


----------



## btboone (May 25, 2005)

I see what you mean.  Yup.  Lots of stuff to think about and dial in.


----------



## Mac In Oak Ridge (May 26, 2005)

I have been kind of amazed at how long this thread has held up and the contributions to it.  It sounds like our craft is heading somewhere and we just need to go with the flow.

However, it has gone way away from what I started out with and I sure would like Nils or some other supplier comment on what I have asked.

The little metal tip of a fountain pen is called the "nib".  Pen kits come with the nib installed in a nib holder with the feed assembly.  I want to buy the nib alone.  Just the little metal part that has the slit in it and applies ink to paper.  If you damage or a customer damages the nib, the only way to solve the problem right now is to waste an entire pen kit to get the dang nib.  I would like to be able to change the nib from medium, all of them we get are medium, to fine or broad.

From the price that pen kits sell for the part of that price that represents the nib is less than $1.00 more like $0.25.  Why can't a pen kit supplier go to their supplier and get 10 packs of nibs of the different line width?  The 10 packs of nibs alone would sell, least ways I would buy them.  I would guess that they could be sold for a profit at $5.00 per pack but most would pay more, I would.

All it takes is a drop on the floor of a fountain pen that lands on the point and the nib is gone.  Again, right now the only cure is to trash a pen kit to change the nib.


----------



## nilsatcraft (May 26, 2005)

In answer to your question, Mac, the nibs are currently sold sepparately for most of our pens.  We don't neccessarily have the nibs only (just the tip without holder or assembly) but it's an entire replaceable piece that can be easily threaded on and off.  We carry these nibs in Extra Fine, Fine, Medium, Broad and Caligraphy for just $4.50-$5.99 each.  We also carry the replacement Medium Fountain nibs for Gents and Jr. Gents pens and they range from $8-$12 dollars each.  It's true that we don't have all varieties of all nibs but we're trying to stock a better variety so that you can replace damaged nibs for a relatively low cost or upgrade a nib for a higher cost.  I don't think we're likely to carry the nib tip only in the very near future but it is a possibility.  I also believe that the tips would cost a lot more than 50 cents or a dollar each.  The tips are not so simple that they can be sold for that little.  We appreciate the feedback we get from these discussions and I'll be sure that this information is brought to the attention of the product specialists here.  We're trying to accomodate the requests of our customers but it's a 'little by little' process  [].  Everyone here is so talented that we have a hard time keeping up! []


----------



## PenWorks (May 26, 2005)

Nils, the quality of your replacement nibs in the 5.00 range are an excellent value. I personally use the fine & calligraphy with no problems at all. 

Now my question to you is....will the replacement nibs offered in the 5.00 range fit into the new Jr. II  ???


----------



## woodscavenger (May 26, 2005)

I have been watching this thread and this forum with amazement.  The craftsmanship that I have seen develop just in the last four months is amazing.  It reminds me of another hobby I was into about two years ago.  I got into RC airplanes, specifically SPADS (Simple Plastic Airplane Design) which basically means that guys got tired of spending 100s of hours on balsa planes and started to make planes of alternative materials (corrugated plastic, aluminum, etc).  I watched that hobbly develop from very simple SPADs to very complex airplanes that were literally undetectable from balsa products.  For any of you interested go to www.spad.org


----------



## nilsatcraft (May 26, 2005)

Anthony, the standard nibs we sell aren't fitted to the Jr. Gents but we sell the Jr. Gent nibs for $3.99 and $4.99 for 10K and Platinum respectively.  They don't have product numbers but you can order them by phone.  They'll fit either the Jr. Gent or Jr. Gent 2.  We also have those for the full size Gentlemen's Pen but they're priced at $8.99 and $9.99 each.


----------



## RussFairfield (May 26, 2005)

Nils,
The question that has been asked but not answered - 

Does your definition of an "Upgrade" nib include an 18k solid Gold??

Or, does "upgrade" just mean a greater variety of widths and platings on the steel nibs that you already have available??


----------



## PenWorks (May 26, 2005)

> _Originally posted by woodscavenger_
> <br />   I got into RC airplanes, specifically SPADS (Simple Plastic Airplane Design) which basically means that guys got tired of spending 100s of hours on balsa planes and started to make planes of alternative materials



OT: Shane I built a Spitfire balsa plane, can't remenber the scale, but it is big. The last thing I would do, is to stick a motor in there and crash it. [B)]  100s of hour, is about right [] I have 3 others that are unfinished after years of laying around [V] Never flew anything, just enjoyed building them.


----------



## PenWorks (May 26, 2005)

> _Originally posted by nilsatcraft_
> <br />Anthony, the standard nibs we sell aren't fitted to the Jr. Gents



They may not be fitted or made for them, but they work []


----------



## driften (May 26, 2005)

> _Originally posted by nilsatcraft_
> <br />Anthony, the standard nibs we sell aren't fitted to the Jr. Gents but we sell the Jr. Gent nibs for $3.99 and $4.99 for 10K and Platinum respectively.



The nibs in the catalog says they are brass. What are these nibs made out of?


----------



## DCBluesman (May 26, 2005)

> _Originally posted by penworks_
> <br />
> 
> 
> ...


Close your ears, Nils. []  
They also fit the Baron/Navigator.


----------



## ed4copies (May 26, 2005)

Nils can listen, BB may not be too happy.

Although, this also means if BB gets his nibs for the Baron, they will probably fit the Jr. Gent (All-in-all, there appears to be light at the end of this tunnel if ANYONE develops an 18kt nib)[][]


----------



## ed4copies (May 26, 2005)

Woodscavenger, 

Years ago I found myself in an art & craft show, exhibiting in competition with Dick Sing.  Since he started this industry (in my mind, I had read his books to learn how to do it), I apologized and tried to find a different avenue rather than head-to-head competition.  I will never forget Dick's response.  Essentially, he said, Keep competing with me, head-to-head, it will make BOTH of us better.

As I look back, I was no competition to him at that time.  But that attitude was certainly refreshing.  We were in shows together for a few more years and I always consider him a pleasant acquaintance.  You'll never meet a nicer gentleman.

So much for reminiscing (sp?)!! His philosophy is certainly prevalent on the IAP site.  Everyone tries to improve with each posting-it has to create better end products and more expertise!!

Back to making pens.


----------



## PenWorks (May 26, 2005)

Competition is good for business, I think most parties do benefit by it.
Unless your Walmart []


----------



## PenWorks (May 26, 2005)

> _Originally posted by ed4copies_
> <br />  (All-in-all, there appears to be light at the end of this tunnel if ANYONE develops an 18kt nib)[][]



Be carefull what you wish for Ed, [] This is a glimpse at at the 14K gold nib in Fine writing grade that will fit the Jr/Baron/Navigator. I will probablly be ordering these within the month []


----------



## RussFairfield (May 26, 2005)

Doing something to customize a kit pen can lead to some interesting challenges. Here are mine.

Replacing the nib was easy. All that took was machining a new fitting for the end of the pen barrel with a thread that matched the nib.

Since I was machining the fitting, I could now attach it directly to the pen barrel without using the brass tube.

Since I am machining the fitting from Sterling, I now have to use a Sterling clip. Making and attaching the clip requires another series of trial and errors.  

However, I am trying to modify a snap-cap pen, and that requires the little bead on the end of the nib that locks into the nylon cup that is inside the cap. The new nib doesn't have this bead. What follows has been a lot of trials and errors to add a bead to the nib I am trying to use, or find a new way to attach the cap. A different way to attach the cap is winning.

And that leads to removing the brass tube inside the cap, and finding another way to attach the clip.

What started with modifying a "kit" will now use none of the kit parts. 

This journey has taken me far from making a "kit pen" but it is an enjoyable trip. The advantage that I have is that I served an apprenticeship as a machinist many years ago,  worked in the trade for several years, still have a tool box full of presision tools, and recently purchased a lathe that will cut any metric thread I want. The Silversmithing skills are something that I am learning. 

The final risk is being able to sell this pen at a price that will recover my time and materials. If that doesn't work out, I will have some nice personal pens and an investment in Sterling.


----------



## Mac In Oak Ridge (May 26, 2005)

> _Originally posted by nilsatcraft_
> <br />In answer to your question, Mac, the nibs are currently sold sepparately for most of our pens.  We don't neccessarily have the nibs only (just the tip without holder or assembly) but it's an entire replaceable piece that can be easily threaded on and off.  We carry these nibs in Extra Fine, Fine, Medium, Broad and Caligraphy for just $4.50-$5.99 each.  We also carry the replacement Medium Fountain nibs for Gents and Jr. Gents pens and they range from $8-$12 dollars each.  It's true that we don't have all varieties of all nibs but we're trying to stock a better variety so that you can replace damaged nibs for a relatively low cost or upgrade a nib for a higher cost.  I don't think we're likely to carry the nib tip only in the very near future but it is a possibility.  I also believe that the tips would cost a lot more than 50 cents or a dollar each.  The tips are not so simple that they can be sold for that little.  We appreciate the feedback we get from these discussions and I'll be sure that this information is brought to the attention of the product specialists here.  We're trying to accomodate the requests of our customers but it's a 'little by little' process  [].  Everyone here is so talented that we have a hard time keeping up! []



Nils,
Thank you for the response.  I don't reply to argue with you,just to point out something.

You sell the end assembles for pens.  The most expensive one you mention sells for $5.99.  I don't know your costs nor do I wish to but it wouldn't be out of the ordinary to figure that your cost is in the $3.00 range for that part, perhaps even less than that.

That part consists of the metal nib, feed assembly and holder with a thread on it.

Whom ever you buy it from is most likely making the plastic parts, or metal if they are metal and buying the nibs from some company that makes nibs.  They then assemble the unit, put it in a package and ship it to you.

They, in turn have a cost of around half of what they are selling to you for and that would make the complete assembly cost him around $1.50.  If you figure that in that cost to him the most of it is for the more complex parts that need to have molds made and threads machined or cast in the molds and plating if needed. You can figure that 75% of that $1.50 is for the parts he is making, 25% (I suspect it is even less than 25%)for the cost of that nib that he is buying in.  That comes out to his cost of the nib of around $0.38.  So he scoops up a coffee mug full of them out of the barrel he gets them in and has someone count them out, just like he does with all the other parts.  

Double that price to you and he sells to you for $0.76 each. And double that price to me and you sell for $1.50.  That is a whole lot less than $5.99 to fix a dropped pen.


----------



## DCBluesman (May 26, 2005)

Mac--I think your analogy breaks down along the way.  If this were the case, I could buy a replacement engine for my Cutlass for about $300.  As long as there are economies of scale for distribution networks between the original manufacturer and the end customer there will be sizable markups.  Many of those on this site that sell fountain pens increase the price to our customers by significantly more than the increased cost of the components.  

In a relatively free market, those costs are only incurred if they are less than the cost of direct distribution.  If the elusive $1.50 nib were something that manufacturers could sell profitably without hurting their other business, they would still be in existence.  The same can be held for my customers.  If they could by a rollerball pen from me for $50 and upgrade it to a fountain pen for $6 I doubt I would sell many $75 fountain pens.


----------



## Mac In Oak Ridge (May 26, 2005)

Well Lou, If you made a Baron Rollerball, sold it and your customer can buy a nib, feed assembly, nib holder for $6 you can do just that.


----------



## woodscavenger (May 26, 2005)

Anthony, you are such a tease!  That is fantastic looking!  Is that only in fine?  I am a lefty and my paper looks like it has been attacked by a swarm of termites if I write with a fine point.


----------



## PenWorks (May 27, 2005)

> _Originally posted by woodscavenger_
> <br /> I am a lefty and my paper looks like it has been attacked by a swarm of termites if I write with a fine point.



Sorry Shane, the first batch is just a fine writing grade. Due to the quantity neded to order, I had to draw a line someplace. I noticed, most fine writing grades are so close to a medium, you really cant't tell the difference.

Some other suggestions, you can start practicing writing righty [] or take a hammer and smash the nib till it looks like a broad []


----------



## ed4copies (May 27, 2005)

Anthony,
Will this nib be available for sale to us, or is it for your retail customers only? Or do you know, yet?


----------



## PenWorks (May 27, 2005)

Ed, they will be offered for sale. ( the Jr nibs are 2 months out) I just recieved the large 14K gold nibs from Germany that will fit into the Gent/Statesmen pen. I will be offering these as well within the next week. Look for my post Monday [] I have to figure my costs over the weekend.


----------



## ed4copies (May 27, 2005)

Anthony,

Sounds great!!  Monday being Memorial Day, I won't be on-line, but I will get on here Tues-look forward to the info!!!


----------



## arehrlich (May 27, 2005)

Anthony,

There are a number of us interested.  Please keep us advised on your progress.

Alan


----------



## wdcav1952 (May 27, 2005)

> _Originally posted by penworks_
> <br />
> 
> 
> ...



Anthony, I don't know how many women you dated before you were lucky enough to get your wife to marry you, but suggesting that someone use a hammer and smash a nib until it looks like "a broad" is really not a proper idea to propose here. []


----------



## nilsatcraft (May 27, 2005)

I'm actually not sure about the 18K nib.  It wasn't mentioned so I don't know if they're being considerred but I think the nibs we're looking at are steel nibs.  Also, like DCBluesman said, if it were profitable to sell the nibs for $1.50 then we would- but it's just not something we carry.  Sorry, Mac!


----------



## driften (May 27, 2005)

> _Originally posted by nilsatcraft_
> <br />I'm actually not sure about the 18K nib.  It wasn't mentioned so I don't know if they're being considerred but I think the nibs we're looking at are steel nibs.



A selection of steel nibs is fine if they are good nibs, but what the "real" FP collectors want is 14k if they are writing with them. The 18k nibs just cost more but don't peform better. I would say steel is fine for many customers. I also think part of the problem is that if we are trying to enter the $200+ market we have to have solid gold nibs.


----------



## Mac In Oak Ridge (May 27, 2005)

> _Originally posted by nilsatcraft_
> <br />I'm actually not sure about the 18K nib.  It wasn't mentioned so I don't know if they're being considerred but I think the nibs we're looking at are steel nibs.  Also, like DCBluesman said, if it were profitable to sell the nibs for $1.50 then we would- but it's just not something we carry.  Sorry, Mac!



Nils, Thank you for the response.  I hope that suppliers reading this thread get the impression that there is a big interest in expanding the repertoire of available nib choices.  And of course when I say big, pen makers live in a small universe.

What I cannot figure out is, why there are no less expensive nibs are out there.  You can go to several dozen web sites and buy antique nibs, gold nibs of various degrees of gold content.  You can send a pen to someone and have an antique nib fitted to it or a new nib fitted to it.  But you can't simply purchase a inexpensive steel nib, gold plated, that come in the very inexpensive pen kits that we use.

There is some company, some place making the dang things by the barrel full but you can't purchase them. It makes no sense at all.


----------



## RussFairfield (May 27, 2005)

These gold pen nibs aren't the golden business opportunity they might appear to be. 

What would it take to get started?? The math isn't all that difficult. From what I have researched, we would need a minimum order of 300 nibs in any size. To fit all of our various needs, they would have to be available in 4 different widths that fit at least 3 different feeders. That adds up to an order of 3600 nibs at about $8 each, and an initial investment of almost $30,000. 

I'm not willing to risk that kind of money based on the few people who tell me they might buy a few nibs. I don't think the Verdors are either.


----------



## Mac In Oak Ridge (May 27, 2005)

Now Russ, that makes a whole lot of sense.

That still leaves me wondering why I can't buy some inexpensive gold plated steel nibs like the ones that come in pen kits.  They are stamped as made in Germany there isn't more than one or two major makers of pen nibs in Germany.  For the pen kit trade, as I have said, they must make them by the barrel full.  But unless you buy a pen kit you can't get one and that just doesn't make any sense.

Not talking about any special made pen nib just a few of the ones that are already being made.


----------



## scubaman (May 27, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Mac In Oak Ridge_
> <br />That still leaves me wondering why I can't buy some inexpensive gold plated steel nibs like the ones that come in pen kits.


I don't mean this to sound patronizing, but maybe you need to take a step back and look at the market with a broader mind.  One pen turner does not constitute a market.  I can't see all that many people buying just steel nibs.  Especially, when they _<b>are</b>_ available, in a slightly higher level assembly, and for the kind of money most people can afford.  I can tell you where you can buy steel nibs from the OEM in Germany.  But, it takes a $500 minimum order to get them into the US.  That's a fair number of nibs.  But not enough for a company to set up distribution, and at the low markup you're looking for.  Maybe you want to invest $500+ to get your hands on a few nibs, and sell the rest.  You won't get rich form that []  Believe me, you can't sell them for $0.50-$1 if you are ordering in the small quantities $500 implies.  I bought some steel nibs from Germany, to practice with.  They cost considerably more.  And the $ has taken a nosedive since then...


----------



## Mac In Oak Ridge (May 27, 2005)

Perhaps you are right Rich.  

Take a look at Item Number 6534790631, currently on Ebay.  

It is a fountain pen. It has a buy it now price of $3.00 on it. It has the very same nib in it that is on the Baron pen that is in my pocket.  If that whole pen can be sold for $3.00 the nib can't be worth more than a few cents.

If you will look at all of the items that seller has listed you will see quite a few $3.00 fountain pens, listed with ink converters included.  Check out what just ink converters cost from our suppliers.  

And no, I wouldn't spend $500 for nibs.  I only want about 10 of three different line sizes.  But a company that sells pen making supplies has a much wider market than I do and it might just be a profitable item for one of them.


----------



## scubaman (May 27, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Mac In Oak Ridge_
> <br />Take a look at Item Number 6534790631, currently on Ebay.
> 
> It is a fountain pen. It has a buy it now price of $3.00 on it. It has the very same nib in it that is on the Baron pen that is in my pocket.  If that whole pen can be sold for $3.00 the nib can't be worth more than a few cents.


That's a dumping price, Mac.

And you must grant the supplier some profit.  Without that there's be no supply at all...  The smaller the item, the higher the profit has to be, because they do not sell millions.


----------



## DCBluesman (May 27, 2005)

I've been writing all night with my Baron (Berea nib) and have exchanged the nib with the quite reasonably priced CSUSA Jr Gent nib assemblies (fine, medium, broad and calligraphy).  A very simple screw-in, screw-out.  If I thought this eBay supplier was as reputable as CSUSA, I'd take a bunch at that price.  Dump away.  I like that we have choices from our suppliers...not perfect yet but a far cry from what we had last July!


----------



## Old Griz (May 28, 2005)

> _[Originally posted by Mac In Oak Ridge
> <br />
> Take a look at Item Number 6534790631, currently on Ebay.
> 
> It is a fountain pen. It has a buy it now price of $3.00 on it. <b>It has the very same nib in it that is on the Baron pen</b> that is in my pocket._



How do you know this is the same nib that is on the Baron pen.. the seller just gives his description of the nib (for what it is worth on eBay), but at that price and the price of the other items he is selling, I really have a hard time believing those are quality pens with quality parts... 
Like Lou said, If I thought they were of the same quality as CSU or Arizona Silhouette, I would buy a bunch and resell them... but I really doubt they are of the same quality..


----------



## Mac In Oak Ridge (May 28, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Old Griz_
> <br />
> 
> 
> ...



Tom,
I looked at it.  It is plated exactly the same way, two color.  It has exactly the same stamped design on it that is on the Baron nib.  It has the exact same words, in the exact same font in the exact same place.
Mac


----------



## Mac In Oak Ridge (May 29, 2005)

Now I know what that guys deal is.  I bought the pen for $2.99.  With shipping and handling the total is $8.95.  I asked if he would sell me five more for $2.99 and include in one shipment.  He declined.  Said if I wanted any more they would be $8.95 each.

There is no ebay commission on the shipping and handling charge.  So you drop the price on the item and make it up on the S&H cost. Interesting but still not the solution to the problem of plated steel nibs.


----------

