# TBC Bushings are comming



## OKLAHOMAN (Feb 11, 2014)

Didn't want to steal another thread here. We at Classic Nib within the next 30 days will be listing most of the bushings all are looking for. We have joined forces with Lazerlines and will become the exclusive distributor of all their products and we  will be expanding their line of bushings to all the popular component sets. If you have a set you think we should have please let us know here, we will be placing our first order this week. Also do you want  the bushings made with a 7MM hole so they can be used on a mandrel also or with just  60 degree drilled ends.


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## Charlie_W (Feb 11, 2014)

This is great Roy! I am doing a pen / CA demo at out woodturning club next week and now there will be a source with more bushings coming available.

60 degree for me!


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## Dan Masshardt (Feb 11, 2014)

Very cool. 

Just 60 degree ends please.  The more contact area with the centers the better.


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## sschering (Feb 12, 2014)

Jr Gent II for me! 60° is all I need.


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## toddlajoie (Feb 12, 2014)

I thought I had seen a set that was done both ways, or is that too radical? May not be ideal on some of the smaller kits (7m obviously, but 8mm would have practically tin-foil left on the insert) but on the bigger kits I don't see why you couldn't drill the 7mm hole through AND still get a decent amount of 60 deg taper on the end...

Of course, it that were to significantly increase the price, then it may not be worth the effort...


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## Dan Masshardt (Feb 12, 2014)

toddlajoie said:


> I thought I had seen a set that was done both ways, or is that too radical? May not be ideal on some of the smaller kits (7m obviously, but 8mm would have practically tin-foil left on the insert) but on the bigger kits I don't see why you couldn't drill the 7mm hole through AND still get a decent amount of 60 deg taper on the end...  Of course, it that were to significantly increase the price, then it may not be worth the effort...



Laxerlinez bushings currently ave both.  They are ok, but lower surface contact area.


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## toddlajoie (Feb 12, 2014)

I turn quite a bit between centers with no bushings, just the 60 deg centers on the tube, without any significant problems, so I have to imagine that any amount of 60 deg taper on these bushings is going to have a huge amount of surface area by comparison... 

I'm not 100% familiar with the intricacies of the 60 deg taper drilled in the bushings, but I would doubt that the tip of the centers is in much contact anyway, as any slight differences between the bushing and the center would then cause a wobble if the outer edge of the bushing did not stay firmly in contact with the bushing....

If it was Laserlinez that I remember seeing like this, I'm sure they would know far better than I would both the positive and negatives of this approach, but it seems all positive to me..


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## longbeard (Feb 12, 2014)

I have and use both styles, i dont see a difference in either style. I also only use the bushings to get close to size then remove them and go directly between the centers, use calipers for final measurements.


Harry


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## Dan Masshardt (Feb 12, 2014)

toddlajoie said:


> I turn quite a bit between centers with no bushings, just the 60 deg centers on the tube, without any significant problems, so I have to imagine that any amount of 60 deg taper on these bushings is going to have a huge amount of surface area by comparison...  I'm not 100% familiar with the intricacies of the 60 deg taper drilled in the bushings, but I would doubt that the tip of the centers is in much contact anyway, as any slight differences between the bushing and the center would then cause a wobble if the outer edge of the bushing did not stay firmly in contact with the bushing....  If it was Laserlinez that I remember seeing like this, I'm sure they would know far better than I would both the positive and negatives of this approach, but it seems all positive to me..



I think it prob has more to do with dual functionality than better design.

    I think more contact area is better and the best chance of proper alignment and maximum drive.   I know tbc with no bushings works and stock bushings can work as well.  

   I like the lazerlinez bushings just fine, but I and many of the people I've talked with here prefer the bushings from penturners products - or that design rather.  I find the quality of both to be good.   It will be interesting to hear more feedback from other turners and see the poll.


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## skiprat (Feb 12, 2014)

Roy, will the 7mm hole variant ALSO have the 60 deg?  If so, then that surely would be the best option? 
I would guess that if they don't have a through hole then the 60 deg variant would be made using a centre drill, ( leaving the pilot dimple) thus avoiding the tip of the centre from possibly bottoming out in the hole? 
What material are you going to make them with?


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## Indiana_Parrothead (Feb 12, 2014)

Hi Roy that is great. I would like to see Fill Size Gent/Majestic/Statesman bushings, 3/8" bolt action, Aero and maybe Imperial. 

So you will be carrying the entire Laserlinez products? Does that include the laser cut blanks and the old Marksman line of pen kits? 

Thanks, Mike


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## Krudwig (Feb 12, 2014)

I am new to this but have been turning between centers using the standard bushings with the 7mm hole except for slim lines ii use the mandrel. The idea of a 60 degree taper with the 7mm hole seams to be a great solution to me ! It should serve most everybody's needs with the exceptions of some. If you want both why not make the 7mm hole with the 60degree taper and the non hole 60 degree taper and everybody is happy!


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## edstreet (Feb 12, 2014)

As said in the other poll on TBC bushings by numerous people etc it really depends heavily on design. 

One other post that I did make recently on quality variations among manufactures was quite drastic and I do have more postings on that to update indicating weight and material differences.  These can be very large differences and make a very big impact on life span and how they hold up among a good variety of other issues.

I would like to ask what is the hardness of these bushings?


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## JohnGreco (Feb 12, 2014)

majestic line, cigars, Statesman would be my top picks for TBC only.


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## OKLAHOMAN (Feb 12, 2014)

Ed, the bushing are made from 303 stainless, here is a link to it's properties:
Stainless Steel - Grade 303 (UNS S30300)


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## OKLAHOMAN (Feb 12, 2014)

Yes, I will be carrying the entire line including component sets and laser cut blanks.:biggrin: The bushings will be an exclusive Classic Nib product.   





Indiana_Parrothead said:


> Hi Roy that is great. I would like to see Fill Size Gent/Majestic/Statesman bushings, 3/8" bolt action, Aero and maybe Imperial.
> 
> So you will be carrying the entire Laserlinez products? Does that include the laser cut blanks and the old Marksman line of pen kits?
> 
> Thanks, Mike


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## edstreet (Feb 12, 2014)

So exclusive means Lazerlines will no longer be selling bushings on their website or direct?


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## OKLAHOMAN (Feb 12, 2014)

Yes, that is the deal we worked out yesterday.





edstreet said:


> So exclusive means Lazerlines will no longer be selling bushings on their website or direct?


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## Smitty37 (Feb 12, 2014)

OKLAHOMAN said:


> Yes, I will be carrying the entire line including component sets and laser cut blanks.:biggrin: The bushings will be an exclusive Classic Nib product.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Hmmmm....I don't intend to stop selling bushings for the Liberty Line that I currently market...


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## Dan Masshardt (Feb 12, 2014)

Smitty37 said:


> Hmmmm....I don't intend to stop selling bushings for the Liberty Line that I currently market...



Woodcraft will have to carry bushings too if they continue to sell.  

But if Roy carries TBC only bushings,   He fill certainly be the only one carrying then from lazer linez. 

This whole deal will add a huge product line.  Very cool.  

I don't know what products you consider to be in or outside if your business purpose, but I'd suggest that carrying dead and possibly high quality live centers would make it an easy stop to get outfitted with everything needed.   

It wouldn't be bad to carry drill bits for the kits you sell either.


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## OKLAHOMAN (Feb 12, 2014)

Let me clear something up. I will be the only distributor of bushings made for imported component sets, Lazerlinze will still carry the bushings for the stainless componens that he makes.


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## Indiana_Parrothead (Feb 12, 2014)

Dan Masshardt said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > Hmmmm....I don't intend to stop selling bushings for the Liberty Line that I currently market...
> ...


 
The Liberty bushing are only TBC with a hole thru them there is no mandrel only same for the Desire. I think that R&B Crafts also carries the Laserlinez SS component sets and bushings.

Thanks Roy your last post cleared this up


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## OKLAHOMAN (Feb 12, 2014)

Here are the bushing I will be ordering, if you have any that you think would be added to this  list let me know here:
Sierra series,Elegant beauty,Aero,Art deco,Artist Sketch pencil,Bullet Cartridge twist, Bullet Cartridge Click,Cigar twist,Baron-Sodona,Zen,Vail,Jr series from CSUSA, Jr. Majestic, Full sized Gent-Statesman, full sized Majestic.


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## kovalcik (Feb 12, 2014)

Does PSI's bolt action fit any of the above bushings?  If not, that would be a nice one to add.


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## edstreet (Feb 12, 2014)

May as well toss in the celtic, knights armor and victorian as well.  With PSI selling 2,700 Victorian kits in 2 weeks time and another 9,000 kits on order there should be ample demand for bushings ....

One of those, forgot which one off hand, uses elegant beauty bushings.


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## Smitty37 (Feb 12, 2014)

Dan Masshardt said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > Hmmmm....I don't intend to stop selling bushings for the Liberty Line that I currently market...
> ...


 I was just saying you don't have to buy the kits from me and go elsewhere for bushings. *I do.*

The Lazerlinez bushings for the Liberty and Desire lines are duel purpose.


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## Dan Masshardt (Feb 12, 2014)

OKLAHOMAN said:


> Here are the bushing I will be ordering, if you have any that you think would be added to this  list let me know here: Sierra series,Elegant beauty,Aero,Art deco,Artist Sketch pencil,Bullet Cartridge twist, Bullet Cartridge Click,Cigar twist,Baron-Sodona,Zen,Vail,Jr series from CSUSA, Jr. Majestic, Full sized Gent-Statesman, full sized Majestic.



I make and see many many more bolt actions that any other bullet pens.   

Also, I feel as though you should consider carrying bushings for every kit that you sell - so roman harvest and pristina - unless you plan to stop carrying those kits. 

I don't see very many Vails. 

Otherwise, good list.


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## OKLAHOMAN (Feb 12, 2014)

Dan, or anyone do you have the dimensions for the bolt action bushings?


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## Smitty37 (Feb 12, 2014)

For the PKCP80XX (standard bolt action) PSIs instructions list the bushing size - same for both bushings - as: Bushing 0.466 Shaft 0.433 the bushing PN is PKCP3000BU and they are also used for some of PSI's other Cartridge kits like 30 caliber bullet cartridge twist, mini 30 cal bolt action, and the longwood 30 caliber


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## Indiana_Parrothead (Feb 12, 2014)

Roy Constant already has the bolt action bushings, it is his product # MTBC08

Mike


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## Constant Laubscher (Feb 12, 2014)

I have the 8mm and the 3/8 sizes for the bolt action.


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## MarkD (Feb 12, 2014)

OKLAHOMAN said:


> Here are the bushing I will be ordering, if you have any that you think would be added to this  list let me know here:
> Sierra series,Elegant beauty,Aero,Art deco,Artist Sketch pencil,Bullet Cartridge twist, Bullet Cartridge Click,Cigar twist,Baron-Sodona,Zen,Vail,Jr series from CSUSA, Jr. Majestic, Full sized Gent-Statesman, full sized Majestic.


How about bushings for the Majestic Squire and the Executive kits?


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## OKLAHOMAN (Feb 12, 2014)

Mark, the Majestic squire is the same as the Art Deco so that is covered, I will give thought to the executives if enough call for them. 





MarkD said:


> OKLAHOMAN said:
> 
> 
> > Here are the bushing I will be ordering, if you have any that you think would be added to this  list let me know here:
> ...


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## thewishman (Feb 12, 2014)

Sketch pencil bushings - HOORAY!


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## RODNEYBREAN (Feb 12, 2014)

ANY TBC BUSHINGS FOR SLIMLINE KITS ?


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## Constant Laubscher (Feb 12, 2014)

RODNEYBREAN said:


> ANY TBC BUSHINGS FOR SLIMLINE KITS ?


 

I would need the sizes for those but that was one of the things on my list to run.


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## walshjp17 (Feb 12, 2014)

I'd be interested in Stratus clicks (nice smooth mechanism) and Civil War Bullet Pens (assuming one or another of the ones you have decided to do already won't work).


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## edman2 (Feb 12, 2014)

How about the long click?


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## OKLAHOMAN (Feb 12, 2014)

Guy's and Gal's I will be sending Constance a list with sizes this evening so if anyone has the size for the slim, the bushing and the shaft let me know.


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## The Penguin (Feb 12, 2014)

long click - I would buy those.


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## edstreet (Feb 12, 2014)

Sounds like a megga poll is in order that includes all the pen kits.


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## southernclay (Feb 12, 2014)

OKLAHOMAN said:


> Guy's and Gal's I will be sending Constance a list with sizes this evening so if anyone has the size for the slim, the bushing and the shaft let me know.


 
Here is Penn State's
http://www.pennstateind.com/library/PKM-BUSH3.pdf

They say outside diameter of .330". CSUSA has .335"


Jr II series would be good to have too, thanks and congrats to both of you


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## Band Saw Box (Feb 12, 2014)

I'll be looking to buy a few set's.  I was hoping to have a few TBC pens done by now. But I guess things done always work as we hope.


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## OKLAHOMAN (Feb 12, 2014)

*Order placed*

The order is placed and we should have stock in 30 to 45 days, it looks like you want 60 degree recesses instead of a .248 hole through the bushing and that is what we will do. You speak we listen:biggrin:


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## edstreet (Feb 12, 2014)

Weather providing and the like ...


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## Smitty37 (Feb 12, 2014)

You just gotta move farther north Ed.





edstreet said:


> Weather providing and the like ...


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## edstreet (Feb 12, 2014)

Smitty37 said:


> You just gotta move farther north Ed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I am 110 miles south of Atlanta and right now they are under nasty while it's just a cold rain going on here.  However that's 1-2 zones away as well...


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## PenMan1 (Feb 12, 2014)

I'll buy them either way. The ones I got from JohnnyCNC years ago are getting tired.

I would prefer them with 7mm holes, but I can drill holes in the few that I use that way. GOOD JOB! It's about time we have these back in the market place!


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## lorbay (Feb 12, 2014)

PenMan1 said:


> I'll buy them either way. The ones I got from JohnnyCNC years ago are getting tired.
> 
> I would prefer them with 7mm holes, but I can drill holes in the few that I use that way. GOOD JOB! It's about time we have these back in the market place!



Has Johnny stopped making them since his mishap. .???
Linv


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## Dan Masshardt (Feb 12, 2014)

lorbay said:


> Has Johnny stopped making them since his mishap. .??? Linv



He has slowed way down from before but is still making some and some others on request as time allows.


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## OKLAHOMAN (Feb 12, 2014)

Lorbay, Johnny has always made terrific bushings but his other activities have slowed his making of them to almost a standstill, what we are trying to do is give a constant supply of TBC bushings. If Johnny was able to do this we would not , but  the call for them has been overwhelmingly good to our entering the marketplace with them.


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## Charlie_W (Feb 13, 2014)

MarkD said:


> OKLAHOMAN said:
> 
> 
> > Here are the bushing I will be ordering, if you have any that you think would be added to this  list let me know here:
> ...


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## Constant Laubscher (Feb 13, 2014)

Charlie_W;1629590
Does this include the Sierra Vista/Wall Street III?[/quote said:
			
		

> Yes, it would


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## OKLAHOMAN (Feb 13, 2014)

Skippy, yes the 7MM hole also has a 60 degree recess, and frankly that's the way I would prefer but in the voting it's almost 3 to one with now drill through and just a 60 degree recess so we will do what the majority wants.



skiprat said:


> Roy, will the 7mm hole variant ALSO have the 60 deg?  If so, then that surely would be the best option?
> I would guess that if they don't have a through hole then the 60 deg variant would be made using a centre drill, ( leaving the pilot dimple) thus avoiding the tip of the centre from possibly bottoming out in the hole?
> What material are you going to make them with?


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## Smitty37 (Feb 13, 2014)

OKLAHOMAN said:


> Skippy, yes the 7MM hole also has a 60 degree recess, and frankly that's the way I would prefer but in the voting it's almost 3 to one with now drill through and just a 60 degree recess so we will do what the majority wants.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's not clear to me why, I've used both and both work equally well.  While the drill through will have a little less gripping area, surely no one is thinking that's going to make a difference in the turning? Or in the amount of pressure needed for a good safe hold by the live center?


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## OKLAHOMAN (Feb 13, 2014)

Smitty37 said:


> OKLAHOMAN said:
> 
> 
> > Skippy, yes the 7MM hole also has a 60 degree recess, and frankly that's the way I would prefer but in the voting it's almost 3 to one with now drill through and just a 60 degree recess so we will do what the majority wants.
> ...



LeRoy I totally agree that the through hole would not effect the turning as there is enough meat that the 60 degree recess is more than actually needed, but as been often said "When in Rome do as the Romans ask us to do" or something like that. :wink:
BTW as to why I would prefer the through hole, as a supplier I have customers that want accuracy in a better bushing that most imported bushing but do not TBC  so this gives them the best of two worlds and when or if they do decide to try TBC they are tooled up with the proper bushings.


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## edstreet (Feb 13, 2014)

OKLAHOMAN said:


> Skippy, yes the 7MM hole also has a 60 degree recess, and frankly that's the way I would prefer but in the voting it's almost 3 to one with now drill through and just a 60 degree recess so we will do what the majority wants.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The 'hole' removes approximately HALF the weight of the bushing.  Also removes at least half, possibly more, structure strength of the bushing from outside forces.  The 'hole' also removes the surface contact to the live center and dead center.

For some materials this may be workable but I can see a need for heftier work loads there could be problems.


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## Constant Laubscher (Feb 13, 2014)

Bushings with 60 degree and no thru hole & one with a thru hole.
TBC ( *T*urn *B*etween *C*enters ) &  MTBC ( *M*andrel & *T*urn *B*etween *C*enters)

Material is 303 Stainless steel

Bushing type is for the Executive Pen from PSI

*60 Degree with No thru hole*
Weight  = 12.04 g
60 degree Surface area = .046 square inches

*60 Degree with Thru Hole*
Weight  =  7.65 g
60 Degree surface area = .046 square inches

I agree less material will make a part weaker but for pen turning it would be insignificant.
There are many ways around the problem using different materials like tool steel or other, heat treatment of the materials but it all add cost to the product in many ways. Probably more than double or triple, but yes it can be done if the demand is there and people are willing to pay a higher price.

BTW   All bushings using mandrels has holes thru them and that is what has been used for years. TBC & MTBC is an improvement on that with better quality materials and tighter tolerances.


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## kovalcik (Feb 13, 2014)

Maybe the poll asked the wrong question. Maybe a better question is "Would you object to making the bushings MTBC?" Could be many TBC turners just don't envision ever using a mandrel again so voted with that in mind hence the 2+ to 1 split.

From Constant's pictures it does not seem that the bearing surface is a big issue either way due to the relief hole. As for the "structure strength" of the bushing, I don't think I would want to use a pen made from material that was heavy enough to cause a structural bushing failure! 

//Geek alert
As far as the weight difference, that is pretty much a wash also since you are removing the mass from the center of the bushing.  The mass at the center contributes much less to the angular momentum than the mass at the outer edge, so the net effect of the weight loss is much less thatn the actual weight difference.  (Solving the integral to prove this is left as an exercise for the student.) 
end Geek alert//

For full disclosure, I voted for the MTBC choice. I like to keep my options open. If most of the 45 voters would still buy the MTBC version plus you pick up the other 19 voters (using the current poll numbers) seems that would be a better solution for everybody.


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## OKLAHOMAN (Feb 13, 2014)

edstreet said:


> OKLAHOMAN said:
> 
> 
> > Skippy, yes the 7MM hole also has a 60 degree recess, and frankly that's the way I would prefer but in the voting it's almost 3 to one with now drill through and just a 60 degree recess so we will do what the majority wants.
> ...



Ed, point well taken if we were talking about a bolt on a back hoe stress factor but we're talking about the force it would take to bend, distort, or otherwise harm a bushing on a lathe making a pen blank round. These are made from 303/316 aircraft approved stainless steel. Sometimes we over think quality and strength in a product which can be good some times but not in this case. We can agree to disagree. See this post to also see that there is no difference in contact on the 60 Degree thru drilled and non drilled thru.
TBC Bushings are comming - Page 6 - International Association of Penturners


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## Dan Masshardt (Feb 13, 2014)

Smitty37 said:


> It's not clear to me why, I've used both and both work equally well.  While the drill through will have a little less gripping area, surely no one is thinking that's going to make a difference in the turning? Or in the amount of pressure needed for a good safe hold by the live center?



What does the hole gain though for those turning between center?   

The extra weight and grip surface may or may not make a real difference but I don't see a thing to be gained by having the hole through for those turning between centers   

Personally I like overkill    beefier the better!


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## Dan Masshardt (Feb 13, 2014)

OKLAHOMAN said:


> LeRoy I totally agree that the through hole would not effect the turning as there is enough meat that the 60 degree recess is more than actually needed, but as been often said "When in Rome do as the Romans ask us to do" or something like that. :wink: BTW as to why I would prefer the through hole, as a supplier I have customers that want accuracy in a better bushing that most imported bushing but do not TBC  so this gives them the best of two worlds and when or if they do decide to try TBC they are tooled up with the proper bushings.



That is good reasoning   It would make sense to offer those bushings especially for the kits you sell


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## Constant Laubscher (Feb 13, 2014)

Dan Masshardt said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > It's not clear to me why, I've used both and both work equally well.  While the drill through will have a little less gripping area, surely no one is thinking that's going to make a difference in the turning? Or in the amount of pressure needed for a good safe hold by the live center?
> ...


 
That way we can serve both the people who want to use a mandrel and the once who just turn between centers. 
Kill two birds with one stone:biggrin:


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## Dan Masshardt (Feb 13, 2014)

Constant Laubscher said:


> That way we can serve both the people who want to use a mandrel and the once who just turn between centers. Kill two birds with one stone:biggrin:



I agree    The question is, will mandrel turners who already have bushings buy these to continue mandrel turning?   I'll guess the number is much less than those who want them for strictly tbc   

It seems that first time bushing buyers would be the big target for the dual purpose bushings  

These are all just hunches though   I'm likely mistaken   

All I know for sure is that I have no need for a hole through   Yes, If I need one and the dual purpose is what's available, I would buy it  

Roy -since you sell the Jr. Series, maybe run some of both for this series and see what sales do?  That would give you an economic survey rather than just opinions without $$


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## OKLAHOMAN (Feb 13, 2014)

Tom, great point on how I phrased the poll. You very well might be right as the numbers are now 70-30 where yesterday they were 40-11.


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## OKLAHOMAN (Feb 13, 2014)

*You have the right to change your mind.*

Since the debate came up to the reasons for and against a thru hole, I'll ask this to the proponents of no thru hole. As we most agree that there is no real lost of strength in pen turning and the contact area on the 60 degree surface is the same would you object to the thru hole as this would give those that are looking for TBC and those that are mandrel turners but want a better bushing than what is supplied by our overseas manufactures. When I made the poll I should have had a third listing saying would you object to a bushing that suits both needs.


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## kovalcik (Feb 13, 2014)

I like the MTBC option for a couple of reasons.  Sometimes I just want to be able to see both barrels of a pen while turning to shape.  Sometimes I have a pen on each lathe so one is TBC and the other is on a mandrel. Sometimes I am just lazy and decide to leave the mandrel set up.  I personally do not see much difference between mandrel or TBC turning except in the quality of the bushings. My main reason to get the TBC bushings is for bushings with tighter tolerances than the standard imports whether I use them on a mandrel or between centers.

I think what it should come down to is that if the TBC only turners are not adversely affected by a mandrel hole and you could sell 30% to 50% more bushing sets by adding the hole, why wouldn't you?  If it makes no difference quality wise, it makes more sense to provide a single, flexible solution than to ignore a portion of the market or to provide two redundant solutions.


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## Jim15 (Feb 13, 2014)

I change my vote from no hole to the ones that have a hole. I really had no reason other than the ones I have have no hole. When I think about it it makes sense to make them with the hole to accommodate both types of turners.


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## Donovan (Feb 13, 2014)

I turn up my own bushings for TBC. So not having a hole does not bother me at all

Donovan


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## Dan Masshardt (Feb 13, 2014)

1. I already have most of the bushings I need for the time being - I will prob still buy a couple sets. 

2. In the interest of others, I will still buy with the hole, but I prefer no hole and would still vote that way for what I like most. 

For comparison, here are Jr. Series bushings.  One is Constants, the other Johnny's.  

Interestingly, with the hole, the bushing contacts the center higher with the hole.   Hopefully the picture show how much and where is the contact area. (This is not to prove any point, just an FYI.


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## Smitty37 (Feb 13, 2014)

Dan Masshardt said:


> 1. I already have most of the bushings I need for the time being - I will prob still buy a couple sets.
> 
> 2. In the interest of others, I will still buy with the hole, but I prefer no hole and would still vote that way for what I like most.
> 
> ...


Of course that is exactly what one would expect the point of the live center has a hole to go into and it will go in farther than if you have just a tiny point hole as John Goodin's do.


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## edstreet (Feb 13, 2014)

Always been 70% + in favor of no holes, always will be regardless.

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner


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## OKLAHOMAN (Feb 13, 2014)

Actually Ed it makes no big difference as the 30% who voted a thru hole did for a reason, and the 70% who voted no thru hole did it because that's what they are used to and the way I framed the poll left them no other choice. As a vendor I think 99% of the voters who voted no thru hole would still buy them and all 30% who voted thru hole would also buy them, so the sound business decision would be to accommodate all at this point. We are going to keep the cost down as much as possible so making one style at this time would accommodate the most customers and help us have the lowest final price available. As always appreciate your input.


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## Dale Allen (Feb 13, 2014)

Dan Masshardt said:


> For comparison, here are Jr. Series bushings.  One is Constants, the other Johnny's.
> 
> Interestingly, with the hole, the bushing contacts the center higher with the hole.   Hopefully the picture show how much and where is the contact area.




Well of course it will sit higher, or farther into, the 60 degree center.  The hole is larger.  It has nothing to do with the taper of the hole.
If you look closely at the one from John Goodin, it is drilled with a center bit.  That is to make sure the point of the center never bottoms out.

I suspect that the ones made with the mandrel hole were purposely drilled deeper to give the extra contact surface.


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## Smitty37 (Feb 13, 2014)

Dale Allen said:


> Dan Masshardt said:
> 
> 
> > For comparison, here are Jr. Series bushings. One is Constants, the other Johnny's.
> ...


You are right. The live center is a cone - going into a slightly less than 7mm hole with a taper machined at the entrance, the live center  has to go in until the diameter of the cone is equal to the diameter of the hole which should be when the cone contacts the tapered edge of the hole.


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## thewishman (Feb 13, 2014)

44% lighter means 44% cheaper - right?:wink:

Why not just start a new poll and phrase it the way you want?

I'd be willing to vote again.


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## mywoodshopca (Feb 13, 2014)

Well, I have both constants and johnny's bushings. I do prefer them with the hole for the mandrel.  

There is PLENTY of contact left on the 60s that the tip wouldn't matter that much IMO. I never read all the way through the threads past the first 1.5 pages, But I would love to upgrade all my bushings to 60s with a mandrel hole for some kits that I still want to turn the tubes together.


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## edstreet (Feb 13, 2014)

OKLAHOMAN said:


> Actually Ed it makes no big difference as the 30% who voted a thru hole did for a reason, and the 70% who voted no thru hole did it because that's what they are used to and the way I framed the poll left them no other choice. As a vendor I think 99% of the voters who voted no thru hole would still buy them and all 30% who voted thru hole would also buy them, so the sound business decision would be to accommodate all at this point. We are going to keep the cost down as much as possible so making one style at this time would accommodate the most customers and help us have the lowest final price available. As always appreciate your input.



Sorry, dont get offended but you are going with the hole regardless of what the 70% majority voted for?  What was the point of having the vote in the first place other than a marketing ploy?  Did I read that right?

Also one last question on this, been bugging me for a very long time now.  What end user advantage is there to having a TBC bushing with a hole in the middle of it?  I can think of no advantages at all from the end users standpoint.  The only advantage I can think of is perhaps to push one product to multiple groups while skimping on machine time to increase profits.


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## OKLAHOMAN (Feb 13, 2014)

Chris, I wish I could but the rules forbid me from doing another pole for a month and only 6 in a year.
*Rules:*

You may start one market research thread per month, six per year maximum
You may post up to five photos with your post or poll
Polls may run for a maximum of 10 days
Poll results may be hidden, but must be set to reveal when the poll closes
Do not reference competing products in your original question
Do not post links to outside web sites
Market research threads are closed in the same manner as for-sale threads; report the post
Market research threads are subject to closure after 30 days if prodctive input is essentially concluded


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## LeeR (Feb 14, 2014)

My head is spinning over what actually is being proposed.  

If the contact area is going to be the same for TBC and MTBC, then I don't care if you do MTBC bushings.  In fact, I'd prefer it, since I now use a collet check with pen mandrel, and would do so for some pens, and acquire new bushings over time.  My thought originally was that MTBC bushings would have less contact area.

BTW -- if anyone does not have a dead center, Amazon has carbide-tipped ones (Grizzly product, but stocked at Amazon). I just got one. Drilled out a set of bushings with a center drill and will try it out on my next pen.


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## shortz1lla (Feb 14, 2014)

As a relatively new penturner coming at this from callmaking, it is always better to have more than one way to reach the desired end. The structural integrity of the bushings is a non-issue. Forcing 303 Stainless to fail by turning softer materials, whether or not there is a hole simply will not happen. Anyone here ever break a diamond with a cheeseburger? Didn't think so. In response to Dan Masshardt: I think beginners, or individuals not presently TBC, also want better bushings... and would pay for them. I just got a 60° dead center, but I have a few sets of bushings that are terribly manufactured and would still like to get better ones for specific kits. Another reason having a through-hole is wise would be for those who make a lot of single barreled pens to rough shape multiples more quickly.


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## OKLAHOMAN (Feb 14, 2014)

edstreet said:


> OKLAHOMAN said:
> 
> 
> > *Actually Ed it makes no big difference as the 30% who voted a thru hole did for a reason, and the 70% who voted no thru hole did it because that's what they are used to and the way I framed the poll left them no other choice.* As a vendor I think 99% of the voters who voted no thru hole would still buy them and all 30% who voted thru hole would also buy them, so the sound business decision would be to accommodate all at this point. We are going to keep the cost down as much as possible so making one style at this time would accommodate the most customers and help us have the lowest final price available. As always appreciate your input.
> ...



Here is the reason, read my words in red.This was indeed never intended to be anything other than a way to find the best way to serve my customers. I freely admit I framed the poll wrong which I think skewed results as I also believed as most others did that there was less contact with the thru hole until Constance showed us that there was the same. You ask what is the end user advantage, the advantage is the end user can use them either way and there is no disadvantage unless you can show me that in turning a pen drilling a thru hole in 303/316 stainless has weakened the product to the point of making it unsuitable for *PEN TURNING*, maybe for jet aircraft but not *PEN TURNING*. The pen turning public has been using bushings from the time the first slim line bushing was shipped with the first mandrel with thru holes, this is an improvement on that as it will they are made with a better quality steel and much closer tolerances and can be used between centers and on a mandrel both ways giving a better end product, a nice round pen. 
You speak of profits as though that is a bad thing, sorry to disappoint you but yes we at Classic's do think of making a profit for both us and our vendor partners but never at the expense of our customers. We could make these both ways and our inventories would cost us more and our investment would be much higher so in the long run the end user, you the customer will pay more because of our extra expense, when it is not needed.


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## Dan Masshardt (Feb 14, 2014)

So at this point are we assuming that those who took the pole thought that there was a difference in that's not there or misunderstood the question?

It would be interesting (but we may never know) if people would or wouldn't vote differently with a differently worded poll. 

Lots of votes but relatively few comments (from more than a handful of conversation partners).


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## edstreet (Feb 14, 2014)

Interesting to note the rules posted was for the market research forum and not for the vendor forums.  So a new one could be opened there and 'worded properly'.  However it is very highly unlikely you will see any big changes to the results unless you did some heavy baiting to swing the super majority.


Also worthy of note is since glut like behavior it might also be highly beneficial for a group type buy.  There is afterall a new forum section for just this type of thing.


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## Smitty37 (Feb 14, 2014)

edstreet said:


> OKLAHOMAN said:
> 
> 
> > Actually Ed it makes no big difference as the 30% who voted a thru hole did for a reason, and the 70% who voted no thru hole did it because that's what they are used to and the way I framed the poll left them no other choice. As a vendor I think 99% of the voters who voted no thru hole would still buy them and all 30% who voted thru hole would also buy them, so the sound business decision would be to accommodate all at this point. We are going to keep the cost down as much as possible so making one style at this time would accommodate the most customers and help us have the lowest final price available. As always appreciate your input.
> ...


*Where is there any 'skimping' on machine time by drilling all the way through the bushing instead of just part way??* 

There is an obvious advantage to the end user who wants to do both mandrel turning and TBC.  This migh manifest itself more with two barrel kits where the user sometimes may want to turn both barrels at the same time.


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## OKLAHOMAN (Feb 14, 2014)

edstreet said:


> Interesting to note the rules posted was for the market research forum and not for the vendor forums.  So a new one could be opened there and 'worded properly'.  However it is very highly unlikely you will see any big changes to the results unless you did some heavy baiting to swing the super majority.
> 
> 
> Also worthy of note is since glut like behavior it might also be highly beneficial for a group type buy.  There is afterall a new forum section for just this type of thing.



You just can't help yourself can you ? Do you actually think members here can be baited into switching their votes and that I have the ability to do so?
As to a group buy, we'll see.


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## OKLAHOMAN (Feb 14, 2014)

Dan, you are right we have had lots of votes but few comments if any at all on why they voted the way that they did. If I was to run another poll in the Vendor forum would it would smack of commercialism?


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## thewishman (Feb 14, 2014)

OKLAHOMAN said:


> Dan, you are right we have had lots of votes but few comments if any at all on why they voted the way that they did. If I was to run another poll in the Vendor forum would it would smack of commercialism?



I think it would be welcomed as a bit of clarity.


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## Dan Masshardt (Feb 14, 2014)

OKLAHOMAN said:


> Dan, you are right we have had lots of votes but few comments if any at all on why they voted the way that they did. If I was to run another poll in the Vendor forum would it would smack of commercialism?



Well, the vendor forum is made for commercialism - in the best sense.  

My opinion is that if you as the business owner are convinced as to what you want to do, you should do it as it's your prerogative.  

If you want to make the bushings that the majority of people want most, doing another poll wouldn't be a bad idea.  

I don't think people would fault you for it if the explanation is that you are seeking clarity.  

You are going to make the bushings one way or the other it seems.  

The vendor forum seems like the place to talk about products and potential products to your hearts content.


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## OKLAHOMAN (Feb 14, 2014)

*Will give some thought*

I have a number of orders to fill so after I get them out I will give some thought to maybe running a poll in the Vendor Forum.


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## OKLAHOMAN (Feb 14, 2014)

Guys and Gals I see no way if I do another poll that I won't be accused of skewing that poll with the knowledge  I now have of the 60 degree contact being the same.


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## Smitty37 (Feb 14, 2014)

OKLAHOMAN said:


> Guys and Gals I see no way if I do another poll that I won't be accused of skewing that poll with the knowledge I now have of the 60 degree contact being the same.


Roy, a poll is to gain information and based on the results(or not) you can take (or not take) any action you want.  In the end it is a business decision that only you can make....


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## Curly (Feb 14, 2014)

I have no bone in this now fight as I didn't vote,,,,,,,,but if you want to justify the thru hole.  :tongue: It is needed because it lets the air out of the tube when the piston fit, close tolerance, bushings are put in the tube. :biggrin: :wink:


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## OKLAHOMAN (Feb 14, 2014)

*Can't please them all but we try*

*OK after talking this over with Constance we have come to a FIRM  decision. When this poll is over whatever % is on each side we will  manufacture the bushings in that number. Now lets stop this debate and  we look forward to supplying you our customers with a much needed  product at a fair price. 

So if you want a solid bushing or a drilled thru bushing you will have a  choice. Constance assures me this will not present a problem and we can  keep the cost the same.  			  			 			*


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## Tom T (Feb 14, 2014)

Thank you,  looking forward to really good and true bushing.


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## Constant Laubscher (Feb 23, 2014)

The material for the bushings will be in on Thursday and I shall post a list of what will be done in the first run.


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## OKLAHOMAN (Feb 23, 2014)

Thanks for the update!


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## hcpens (Feb 24, 2014)

How do we order the TBC bushings from you?


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## DWulf (Feb 24, 2014)

Fingers crossed that Jr. Gent 1 and Cigar will be in the first run - I'm in need of both


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## Lenny (Feb 24, 2014)

Roy, count me as one who voted for the tbc version but would like to change my vote. 
I think the version with the hole through it would often be handy ... Such as when using a mandrel in the collet chuck. best of both worlds.

I'm just happy you are going to be providing them .... whatever way you go!


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## 64Stang (Feb 24, 2014)

*I'm a buyer!*

I am very pleased to see this movement afoot, I have found also that it  is a much needed service.  I even thought of venturing in it myself at  one point.  I am in desperate need of some slimline TBC bushings along with some others!


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## OKLAHOMAN (Feb 24, 2014)

hcpens said:


> How do we order the TBC bushings from you?



Richard when they arrive in about 3 more weeks I will be listing them on my site Welcome to The Classic Nib I will also letting all know they are in stock and ready for shipping here on the IAP.


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## hagemierj (Mar 23, 2014)

I am trying to find TBC bushings for PSI Graduate twist rollerball pens.  They may also go under a different name, but I don't know it.  I was just at the 'Nib site and didn't find them there.  Any suggestions?

Thanks!

J


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## Dan Masshardt (Mar 23, 2014)

hagemierj said:


> I am trying to find TBC bushings for PSI Graduate twist rollerball pens.  They may also go under a different name, but I don't know it.  I was just at the 'Nib site and didn't find them there.  Any suggestions?  Thanks!  J



You mean twist ballpoint?   Rollerball is the magnetic cap.


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## hagemierj (Mar 24, 2014)

Yup, said rollerball, meant ball point.  The Graduate is a ballpoint twist style pen.

Bought these one sale:
6 Graduate Pen Kit Starter Package at Penn State Industries


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## Dan Masshardt (Mar 24, 2014)

hagemierj said:


> Yup, said rollerball, meant ball point.  The Graduate is a ballpoint twist style pen.  Bought these one sale: 6 Graduate Pen Kit Starter Package at Penn State Industries[/QUOTE
> I have a set for the magnetic but have never seen any for the twist.
> 
> Honestly, I don't know if there would be the market for them.  My observation is that the majority of folks here shy away from cross style refills in favor of Parker's.
> ...


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## hagemierj (Mar 25, 2014)

Will take a look at the magnetic!  Where did you get the bushings you have?  One thing I am wondering is if the kit I got from PSI goes under a different name...

Thanks!

J


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## Edward Cypher (Mar 25, 2014)

Got my bushings today plus a nice acrylic surprise.  Thanks so much and as soon as it warms up here in Colorado I am going to try them out.  Great people to do buisness with.


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