# Stick Fast CA "Broken Glass Look"



## reddwil (Oct 19, 2012)

I posted a couple weeks back about the problem I was having with the Stick Fast Ca Finish and the broken glass look. Several others also said the same thing. Well today I think we may have found the culprit. STICK FAST. I stopped by my local Woodcraft today and talked with the Manager. Just so happened he had 3 pens in his hand that had done the same thing. After much discussion we determined that it could not be the CA, and the only thing that was common  was new cans of Accelerator. 
He called Stick Fast. And we were right, Apparently they changed the formula on the accelerator after one guy(yes one) complained that it was not setting up fast enough for him. So they made it hotter. He was aware that there was some chatter on different forums regarding the issue and told Woodcraft they would change it back. The difficult part for us now is determining what batch of accelerator we have. The unscientific way to tell as explained to me, Look at the lot Number on the bottom of the can. If the stamp is small say 1/8 its the old, if its bigger and easy to read, its the new(hotter).  Not sure what the "New" old formula will be.  Stick Fast solution to the current formula was smaller sprays from a further distance????? Its a CA - accelerator reaction. Not sure what difference it would make?


----------



## 76winger (Oct 19, 2012)

I use Stick Fast and that's happened to me on a couple pens I've made recently, but not all pens I've done. Hmmm. 

Also, it didn't show up on my until a couple days later, not sure what's up with that...


----------



## Mike D (Oct 19, 2012)

Thanks for the heads up. I'll look at mine. So far I've used the stick fast system on 5 pens and haven't had any problems.


I looked and mine is from the old batch. Will there be any way to tell the reverted formula from the problematic ones?


----------



## Wright (Oct 19, 2012)

Bought a can of Stick Fast accelerator last week and so far so good!!


----------



## edstreet (Oct 19, 2012)

I have been saying for some time now you do not need accelerator


----------



## reddwil (Oct 19, 2012)

edstreet said:


> I have been saying for some time now you do not need accelerator



That's the route I'm going. that way you don't have to guess whats good and whats not.


----------



## reddwil (Oct 19, 2012)

Mike D said:


> Thanks for the heads up. I'll look at mine. So far I've used the stick fast system on 5 pens and haven't had any problems.
> 
> 
> I looked and mine is from the old batch. Will there be any way to tell the reverted formula from the problematic ones?



Not sure Mike. I don't think they know. The guy didn't even know the batch numbering had been changed on the new cans until we talked to him.


----------



## MobilMan (Oct 21, 2012)

I agree 100% with you Ed.  There's no need to use it during the finishing stages.  Just take you're time & just CA only.  Why, I've wondered so often reading the forum, do people want to get in such a hurry.


----------



## eliasbboy (Oct 21, 2012)

MobilMan said:


> I agree 100% with you Ed.  There's no need to use it during the finishing stages.  Just take you're time & just CA only.  Why, I've wondered so often reading the forum, do people want to get in such a hurry.



I've been using accelerator only because it was used in every video I watched to learn it.   I JUST purchased a new can yesterday at Woodcraft and had to sand off 3 first coats because the finish was odd.   It did resemble the broken glass look other had.   I thought it was something I was doing since I'm rather new to CA.

It looked great as I applied the CA, but as soon as I hit it with the accelerator I could see issues.   I'll stop immediately now I see that's it.

What is the wait time to expect between coats without it?  A minute or two I'd assume?


----------



## plano_harry (Oct 21, 2012)

eliasbboy said:


> What is the wait time to expect between coats without it? A minute or two I'd assume?


 
You can lay down 15 to 20 coats of thin virtually nonstop.  By the time you toss the old paper, pick up a new one, drop of CA on, and apply it should dry enough to not grab the paper.  Thin is also much less likely to from ridges that have to be sanded out.  If you don't over sand, that should be plenty of thickness


----------



## eliasbboy (Oct 21, 2012)

plano_harry said:


> eliasbboy said:
> 
> 
> > What is the wait time to expect between coats without it? A minute or two I'd assume?
> ...



Much appreciated!


----------



## azamiryou (Oct 22, 2012)

plano_harry said:


> eliasbboy said:
> 
> 
> > What is the wait time to expect between coats without it? A minute or two I'd assume?
> ...



That is highly variable. It depends on temperature, humidity, applicator, technique, and probably the surface you're putting it on. The thinner the layer of CA, the faster it cures. Some applicators will tend to "kick off" the curing quicker than others, possibly even too quick.

I've also found that if I lay new CA over partially cured CA, it slows down the curing. If I lay down layers without stopping, it works fine at first but starts getting gummy around the third or fourth layer.

Try it and see how things go for you.

If you do want to use accelerator, some are hotter than others. A mild accelerator will tend to cause fewer issues. I generally let a coat of thin CA cure for 5 seconds or so, then hit it with a mild accelerator to finish it off before the next coat of CA.


----------



## eliasbboy (Oct 22, 2012)

I'm living in hell.   I just finished a new kit for me and also used my first piece of Amboyna.   I used the CA and accelorator and had the issues.   Sanded that off.   Applied it without accelorator and it looked great.   This kit requires a tenon for the cap section.   When I placed the piece on the tenon, it was crooked.   I probably didn't have the tenon square because of the CA.   

I tried as gently as I could to get the piece back off and now I've scratched the CA and have to do it again.


----------



## mhbeauford (Oct 22, 2012)

I agree with Harry with one minor exception. I mist with aerosol accelerator about every 3-4 coats, helps to insure that all layers harden and shortens the cure time for the next 2-3 coats. I touch the surface with my finger before each coat to make sure it's not sticky before applying the next coat.  I use an aerosol, not pump accelerator, from about 8-10 in away and very light mist. A pump makes then surface rougher. 

For information, I use thin CA and the build is approximately .00025 per coat for a total or .005  or a diameter change of .010 in for 20 coats.  I use this number to over cut/sand to about .01 under size before applying the CA. I check diameter and if needed apply 3-4 more coats.  Usually the finish is smooth enough that I finish with only the last 4  grits of micro-mesh wet and a final polish with Plastix. Upon the rare occasion when it is too rough (like I wipe too long and the paper towel sticks, etc!) I just sand back until smooth and start again.


----------



## underdog (Oct 31, 2012)

*@#$%^&!*

Durn!

The last two pens I finished had this problem. Didn't think much of it on the first one as it was my daily user with cross grain Wenge. I figured I just got the Wenge too hot both in the drilling and the buffing. But now it's cracked even worse as the days have gone by.

Then I got to practising on my PITH project, and noticed the practice piece had a bunch of cracks in it. I figured it was a fluke because I put a really thick coat in two passes just to see what it would look like.

And then I forgot about it until tonight when I looked at the finished PITH project, and saw.... cracks starting on what _was_ a pretty good finish. I'm afraid I'll have to start all over again.

I used medium StickFast from their finishing system, and a different brand accelorator. I can't remember the brand at the moment. I'll pop up to the shop in a moment and jog the memory. ***Edit*** 2P-10 Activator marketed by FastCap. ***Edit***

Now I'm afraid of the finishing medium Stickfast... and I can't sand it off and refinish this project due to the nature of it....

$#%@!:at-wits-end:


----------



## panamag8or (Oct 31, 2012)

underdog said:


> I used medium StickFast from their finishing system, and a different brand accelorator.



That could be the problem. I've seen here where some people say that different brands don't play nice with each other.


----------



## underdog (Oct 31, 2012)

Perhaps. But the common denominator seems to be the medium Stickfast finishing formula.

I never had ANY trouble with the non-finishing formula.


----------



## Haynie (Nov 1, 2012)

Welcome to pen turning.  Maybe SWMBO was just trying save your sanity by telling you to quit.




eliasbboy said:


> I'm living in hell.   I just finished a new kit for me and also used my first piece of Amboyna.   I used the CA and accelorator and had the issues.   Sanded that off.   Applied it without accelorator and it looked great.   This kit requires a tenon for the cap section.   When I placed the piece on the tenon, it was crooked.   I probably didn't have the tenon square because of the CA.
> 
> I tried as gently as I could to get the piece back off and now I've scratched the CA and have to do it again.


----------



## ghostrider (Nov 1, 2012)

underdog said:


> Perhaps. But the common denominator seems to be the medium Stickfast finishing formula.
> 
> I never had ANY trouble with the non-finishing formula.


I've got a bottle of Stickfast medium that I'm pretty sure is bad, as well as a can of accelerator that doesn't seem to do much accelerating. 

I put the Medium glue on one piece, and it took over night to dry (let alone cure). When I first tried it on a finish with that accelerator, it made a mess. I had to re-do it twice before figuring out that it was the glue. Then when I tried the accelerator on a different glue, again the problems. Now I just use that glue for filling gaps and gluing tubes. I was fortunate that exotics was able to get me my order fast enough. That Stickfast medium wouldn't stay on the blank.


----------



## Lenny (Nov 1, 2012)

Perhaps they can re-market it as a special "broken glass look" pen kit finishing system! :biggrin:


----------



## Lenny (Nov 1, 2012)

To those of you who recommend using no accelerator all I can say is "oh yee of too much patience"!


----------



## 76winger (Nov 1, 2012)

I make my own medium CA by blending thin and thick together, and I've seen the crackling effect a only a couple of times. Not sure if it was too heavy a coat or spraying accelerator too close, but I'll be wary of both going forward.


----------



## underdog (Nov 1, 2012)

Lenny said:


> To those of you who recommend using no accelerator all I can say is "oh yee of too much patience"!


 
I have to agree. It takes me a long time to get a good CA glue finish anyway, and waiting on the glue to dry between coats just adds to that.

And in cooler and dryer weather, it takes even longer.


----------



## underdog (Nov 1, 2012)

Would it be possible to start a poll about this subject? Or would that be against TOS to mention brand names?


----------



## Carl Fisher (Nov 10, 2012)

FYI, it's not a brand specific issue.

I use E-Z Bond exclusively and as we were looking through our inventory for a pen last night, we ran across one that this happened to.  It was a pen that was done easily 8 months ago that just now is showing this issue.

I can only assume it didn't agree with the sun during our last show or it somehow got smacked pretty good in the case to trigger the shattered look.


----------



## edstreet (Nov 10, 2012)

Honestly I do not understand what everyone's beef is in not using accelerator, time wise we are not talking but a few seconds here at most.


----------



## ed4copies (Nov 10, 2012)

plano_harry said:


> eliasbboy said:
> 
> 
> > What is the wait time to expect between coats without it? A minute or two I'd assume?
> ...




Hey Harry!!  This is probably the case in Texas, but in Wisconsin (much higher humidity), you will watch your towel spin, caught on the blank after the second coat.

The long-term reliability of CA is still much in doubt, which is why I think there is merit to using WTF!! (Woodturners Finish, of course)


----------



## flippedcracker (Nov 30, 2012)

I just found this happening to a bunch of stuff I turned this past week. I tried 2 new things, so I'm not sure which caused it. First is a new bottle of Stick Fast accelerator since my old one ran out. Second is the Stick Fast thin finishing formula. I previously had been using Titebond Medium. Looks like I need to go back to what I was doing and see if I can figure out the actual cause.


----------



## el_d (Nov 30, 2012)

Im not using Stickfast but still end up getting the Broken glass effect. Even without accelerator I have seen it on some finishes I applied.

I was thinking it was the wood that wasn't stabilized and "moving" depending on humidity and Temp.


----------



## mywoodshopca (Nov 30, 2012)

ed4copies said:


> The long-term reliability of CA is still much in doubt, which is why I think there is merit to using WTF!! (Woodturners Finish, of course)


 
I agree. I lost all faith in CA.. I can apply it easy, turns out and looks great.. BUT for how long?

Seems a few pens turn foggy after awhile (1-12 months or so). Heck, had one sierra that had a dymondwood blank, looked at it the other day, turning foggy now. That finish was done well over a year ago and didnt look like that a few months ago. Stored in a dry area and not in sunlight.

I got some WTF, but never had a chance to try it yet.


----------



## 76winger (Dec 9, 2012)

This discussion started out mentioning the change in formula of Stickfast CA as a likely cause of the crackling issue and I noticed yesterday that one mine that was made just right after I got a new can of CA had crackled. It did not show up for several weeks, but as I was inspecting it prior to shipping to a purchaser I saw it (OH NO!!!) so I disassembled it and sanded the finish off to redo. I applied about 14 coats of thin CA and after every two or three let it set for a few minutes to set up and loose the "gummyness" before applying the next 2 or 3. Then I let it dry over night and will polish up this afternoon when I get back home. Hopefully it will be OK now, unless something in the glue has changed as well. 

My question though is has anyone heard if their changes have been reverted or is the same formulation still in circulation? Their product has always worked great for me until the latest batch so I hope they make corrections to fix the issue. If not I'll have look for alternatives like WTF or different brands of CA or something.


----------



## underdog (Dec 9, 2012)

I have an update also.

I thought it was the new bottles of finishing Stickfast causing the problem.

I finally did some testing.

I made several different samples; Stickfast finishing thin, Stickfast finishing medium, SP10 thin, SP10 medium, and one old bottle of Stickfast medium.

All were used with the SP10 accelerator.

The old bottle of standard Stickfast medium was the culprit.

I haven't looked at the other samples since then, but that old CA looks like shattered windshield glass...


----------



## George417 (Dec 9, 2012)

edstreet said:


> I have been saying for some time now you do not need accelerator




I don't use it and never have had any problems

:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:


----------



## 76winger (Dec 9, 2012)

George417 said:


> edstreet said:
> 
> 
> > I have been saying for some time now you do not need accelerator
> ...



On many layers of thin I think you're correct. However it's pretty much a necessity with medium CA, which has always worked for many of us in the past, but now seems questionable.


----------



## underdog (Dec 12, 2012)

Last time I put a finish on, it was dry and quite cool. I couldn't get the stuff to cure without accelerator. I'd have been there all day just for the one pen.

Now in the summer months with heat and humidity, I have to get off the pen with the towel, or it'll be sticking it cures so fast.


----------



## Lenny (Dec 12, 2012)

This is why you will often hear advice given as "what works for me" and "use what works for you" ...

Too many variables to tell someone THIS is how to do it! 

Jim, I agree with you, I have found accelerator is the great equalizer for me ... a cheap insurance for avoiding that stuck paper towel! 

Your mileage may vary! Do what works for you and your location/conditions!


----------



## 76winger (Mar 11, 2013)

Sorry to bring up this old thread, but I'm wondering if anyone has heard any new info on this. I'm closing in on time to re-order some CA and may try something new of the problem hasn't determined. 

Any thoughts/recommendations?


----------



## bobs pens 1 (Mar 20, 2013)

Last night I made two blanks using CA over my wood. I let them sit overnight for about 10 hours. I have been going right on and sanding them down but have read lately that many wait till the next day to sand. Is it Necessary to wait or do you get better results doing latter say 12 hours?

Also, if you use thin CA glue how many applications does it take to get one of Medium about Four?

I have been waiting about 45 seconds to air dry on thin CA and have been using the can on the Medium CA. So far no cracks or fogging on the pens I have done in the past two months.

I also have been working on decals over Maple Blanks. I have applied a good coat of CA glue then apply the decal where I want it come back the next moaning and then apply a few coats of thin glue then four coats of medium glue. So far this has turned out pretty good.

By the way I went to Hobby Lobby and bought some of their Thin CA Glue and it seems to work fine. As a rookie I thought CA glue was all the same.

If you use Medium CA glue how long should you wait if you don't spray? Also, would you turn you speed up to say 2000 to help it dry faster? I have also put my lamp bulb near the blank to give it some heat to help it dry faster I wonder if that is a good or bad idea. So far I have no complaints but hate to see failures show up six to 12 months down the road like some have seen.

I often wonder if a spray can or a old fashion squeeze bottle is better to use to cure the glue. Does one have a finer spray or is it not much difference. bob


----------



## azamiryou (Mar 20, 2013)

bobs pens 1 said:


> So far this has turned out pretty good.



This is the key thing, everyone has different experiences with CA, so you should do what works for you. If you want to get a nice-looking pen, do what works for you. If you want to learn about CA, try what someone else suggests and/or do some experiments, but don't expect to get good results.



> I have been going right on and sanding them down but have read lately that many wait till the next day to sand. Is it Necessary to wait or do you get better results doing latter say 12 hours?


While CA sets very quickly, it takes time to fully cure. (Ever seen "fogging" of metal components or nearby objects? That indicates the CA is still outgassing, and therefore still curing.) It gets a lot harder as it cures, so if you sand right away, you're sanding a softer coat of CA than if you sand a few hours later or the next day.

There's nothing "wrong" with sanding the softer CA, but it scratches pretty easily. I find it's very easy to get a big scratch in it during sanding, and have to back up to a coarser grit to get it out. So I prefer to wait, polish the harder surface that doesn't scratch as easily.



> Also, would you turn you speed up to say 2000 to help it dry faster?


I don't think higher speed helps it cure faster. It does encourage uncured glue to flow to "high spots", which increases any unevenness.

The "right" speed is fast enough that uncured CA doesn't slump to the bottom, and slow enough that it doesn't get pushed up any high spots. For application, you need a speed that gives an even coat with your application technique. If you're lucky, the right application speed and cure speed are the same, so you don't have to change speed after application.



> I often wonder if a spray can or a old fashion squeeze bottle is better to use to cure the glue. Does one have a finer spray or is it not much difference.


In my experience, a spray can has a much finer mist. I've found some pump bottles ("atomizers") with an extremely fine mist, but haven't tried one with accelerator. I don't know if the plastic will be compatible. I have a reusable spray can that you pressurize with an air compressor. It works great as long as there's plenty of pressure inside it.

Hope this helps. Unfortunately, CA is different for everyone, so there are no definite answers - just things to try and see how well they work for *YOU*.


----------



## Justturnin (Mar 20, 2013)

I have never use the Stick Fast but the only accelerator I use is the Woodcraft Satellite City.  I have tried others but this is the only one that gives me perfect results every time, the others seemed oily.  I use it with Ez Bond CA.  I only use it with Med CA.  Once I apply the coat I allow it to cure for about 30 seconds so it is not runny.  I hold the can at about 18 inches and flank the blank.  One or two quick sprays and it is set.  Often times that same spritz will also make the next coat dry quicker as well.  

It's pricey but lasts.

Buy Aerosol Accelerator 6 Ounces at Woodcraft


----------



## bobs pens 1 (Mar 20, 2013)

Satellite City Super T Instant CA Glue, Med, 2 Ounces

I also use the Same Can as you posted and the Satellite City Super T Instant Glue in Med.

My son has been using it for years and likes it.

I just finished two blanks I let them dry overnight about 10 hours. I wet sanded them and I have mixed feelings about it. I see some scratches in the final product. I used a 600 grit on it first wet then went with the pads all with water. Then a polish. It has a nice shine but I have done better.

Here is a good question.  When you start to sand your blank down what grit do you start with?

What speed to you put your lathe on?

When you go to your pads do you use all of them? How fast of speed and for how many seconds per pad.

These are things that go through my mind when I am doing it.

Excellent thread and great advice as usual. Thank you.


----------



## Rick_G (Mar 20, 2013)

I tried accelerator for a while and didn't like the results I got so gave up.  I now do my finishing in the evening.  My shop is in the basement next to the tv room.  I put on a coat of medium CA go watch tv till the next commercial go back and put on another.  
For those wondering how long the CA finish lasts, my daily carry is a Black Ti. Fishers of Men pen about 4 years old.  The finish on the wood is like it came off the lathe when I made it.  The finish on the metal parts is wearing off.


----------



## bobs pens 1 (Mar 21, 2013)

That's a great idea. When I watch my favorite TV shows like tonight on CBS I can put the CA Glue on during commercials  thanks for the tip.


----------



## Sylvanite (Mar 27, 2013)

Well, I'm hesitant to blame Stick-Fast brand CA or Accelerator.  I've only used E-Z Bond brand, and the same thing just happened to me.

I made this pen last summer as a demonstration of how to do "Eagle Feathers" for the local IAP chapter.  I know it hasn't been dropped or left in the sun because I've kept it in a pen binder indoors.  About a week ago, I took it out and saw this:







Six months later, the finish has shattered like safety glass.

I don't know why it happened.  I suspect that the problem was caused by movement of the wood (although you'd think that the maple would be pretty stable).  The finish is cracked around all the blackwood inlays as well.  I have many other pens, however, that were exposed to the same temperatures without issue.  The finish is fairly thick, so that may have contributed to the fractures.

I might consider going back to using BLO, as that might make the CA more flexible.  A thinner finish might also be less brittle.

Regards,
Eric


----------



## Dave Turner (Mar 27, 2013)

+1 on the Satellite City accelerator spray can and their Super T Medium CA.  I've used these for several years and have never had a problem with clouding or cracking.  I tried using a less costly accelerator from a pump bottle - what a catastrophe.  Other brands of CA don't seem to work as well for me either.

I've tried using thin CA, but it just doesn't give me the "depth" that I'm after. With the medium CA, I definitely need accelerator, otherwise I'd be waiting at least 30 to 60 seconds between coats, and I put on 12 coats. With the accelerator, I can go immediately to the next coat after a quick spray. I use about 200 rpm for CA application.

I often sand the blanks within 10 or 15 minutes of CA application. I start with 320 grit to quickly knock off the ripples-ridges left by the paper towel application of the CA. (I never thought much about sandpaper brands until I tried Norton 3X. It makes sanding fun - I even like it better than Abranet.) You've got to use a light touch with the 320, especially towards the ends. I sand at 300 to 400 rpm and always end each grit by sanding along the axis with the lathe off. I then sand with 400 and 600 grits before moving on to wet sanding with MicroMesh pads.


----------



## tumbleweed676 (Mar 27, 2013)

Have always used the ca and accelerator from Craft Supplies and never had a problem


----------

