# Dye infusion



## RogerC

I tried searching the forum, but nothing came up, though I figured for sure this had been discussed here before...

I just built my own vacuum chamber and was going to try to infuse some apricot wood blanks with dye.  I submerged the blanks in my dye solution and proceeded as I would if I were stabilizing: ran vacuum for 4.5 hrs, released vacuum and let sit for about 18 hrs (overnight and while I was at work the next day).

I got absolutely zero dye penetration.

The dye I was using was a fabric dye that's supposed to work on wood as well, and in fact it did dye the outside very nicely.

I was wondering if anyone here has successfully worked out a process for thoroughly infusing dye throughout the blanks.

Thanks


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## jttheclockman

www.penturners.org/forum/f178/double-dye-stabilizer-105693/

In search feature I typed vacuumed dyed wood. Took 30 seconds and there were many hits. Here is one of them.


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## RogerC

Thanks, but that thread seems to deal primarily with woods that are being stabilized as well, meaning they're softer and looser to begin with.  The wood I'm using hasn't been compromised in any way, so it's still structurally very solid.


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## jttheclockman

RogerC said:


> Thanks, but that thread seems to deal primarily with woods that are being stabilized as well, meaning they're softer and looser to begin with.  The wood I'm using hasn't been compromised in any way, so it's still structurally very solid.




It tells you what you need to do. Not all dyes work well with wood. Not all woods are meant to be dyed. Do a google search to further the search. May have to cook the wood before dying to soften and open the pores. You may ruin your equipment from the dye also so be aware of this. Good luck.


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## Brooks803

If the wood doesn't need stabilizing couldn't you just dye the turned blank prior to a sealing finish? That'd save you a lot of time and materials.


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## leehljp

jttheclockman said:


> RogerC said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks, but that thread seems to deal primarily with woods that are being stabilized as well, meaning they're softer and looser to begin with.  The wood I'm using hasn't been compromised in any way, so it's still structurally very solid.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In search feature I typed vacuumed dyed wood. Took 30 seconds and there were many hits. Here is one of them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It tells you what you need to do. Not all dyes work well with wood. Not all woods are meant to be dyed. Do a google search to further the search. May have to *cook* the wood before dying to soften and open the pores. You may ruin your equipment from the dye also so be aware of this. Good luck.
Click to expand...


1. What do you mean by "cook" the wood? That is a broad term.

2. John T. - A problem has been mentioned many times here on this forum and no one responds to that - SEARCH! I have been a member of this forum for 12 1/2 years and "Search" does not work for me on this forum. I read of others who have the same problem. Then there are the vocal ones like you who have no problem with "Search". You guys drown out those with problems and it never gets fixed. One in about 5 or 6 searches work for me. The next time, "cannot find" comes up. Then the detailed Name of user, which forum, what time frame etc. No rhyme or reason to that. It has been this way for me for ages. I cannot find my own posts by typing in a name of a pen that is the title of the thread. I get the "cannot find or does not exist" message, followed by the long detailed search list. So John, don't assume that because it works for you that the other guys haven't tried. This is not the first time that I have brought this attention up, or others who have brought it up.

3. I tried dying balsa wood a few years ago, pull a vac for hours, then put under pressure for hours (24 hour process). LESS than 1/64 penetration. I am very curious on the dye process too. I even boiled some small pieces of balsa in dye but that didn't soak in. I tried maple and it only worked about than 1/16 inch inward. Of course when I did that I used some dyes used to tint acrylic casting and the instructions were in Japanese! I think I followed the instructions well enough.

Does the wood need to be dried? to what percentage?  Does maple and other closed grain woods absorb it or does open grained wood like oak do better in the home shop process?

Thanks Roger for bringing this subject up again. Better clarification is needed.


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## KenV

You did not detail size of pieces, preparation, extent of vacuum.  All these make a difference, but none of the processes I know of is perfect for even distribution of color, especially in more dense and figured woods.


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## lyonsacc

A dye "working" on wood is one thing.  Penetrating wood is another.

I am not an expert on this, but have read and done some.
Some dyes can be mixed with a medium (i.e. cactus juice - used to stabilize wood) and they "fully" mix with the medium in such a way that the color pigment is "small" enough to penetrate the wood. Realize that to penetrate the wood, the pigment has to be small enough to get around or through the cellular structure of the wood.  My understanding is that the pigment in most dyes is not small enough, and thus can't make it past the first bit of the outer layer of what is being dyed.  Kind of like a coffee filter.  You may need to experiment with different types of dye and the medium you mix it with to find a combination that penetrates.


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## RogerC

jttheclockman said:


> www.penturners.org/forum/f178/double-dye-stabilizer-105693/
> 
> In search feature I typed vacuumed dyed wood. Took 30 seconds and there were many hits. Here is one of them.



That's odd.  I tried doing a search for "dye", and nothing came up.  Not even this thread which has the word "dye" in the title, and that took even less than 30 seconds.


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## KenV

And when the search term is "Dyes" several pages come up.


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## Marc

I have done a bit of the dying and stabilizing also.  

My input mirrors some of the others, but I will say the moisture content, wood density, strength of the vacuum, and type of dye are all factors.  As lyonsacc said, some woods cannot be dyed.  Redwood is one such wood.  

The process I used almost always involved stabilizing as well.  In a process similar to the one used with Cactus juice, wrapping the wood after it has been vacuum soaked, and then cooking until the stabilizer has crystallized works for me.

Red dyes for the most part don't turn out red, except on the surface.  The portion that has penetrated has almost always been pink.

Dying wood is a lot of fun and can produce some excellent blanks.  I found Jonathon's comment (I mean Brooks 803) to be very practical.  Just dying the surface of a finished blank can produce quick and brilliant results, even in red.  Setting the dye may require spray lacquer or other finish to keep it from smudging.

Good luck and have fun with it.


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## RogerC

leehljp said:


> jttheclockman said:
> 
> 
> 
> It tells you what you need to do. Not all dyes work well with wood. Not all woods are meant to be dyed. Do a google search to further the search. May have to *cook* the wood before dying to soften and open the pores. You may ruin your equipment from the dye also so be aware of this. Good luck.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1. What do you mean by "cook" the wood? That is a broad term.
> 
> 2. John T. - A problem has been mentioned many times here on this forum and no one responds to that - SEARCH! I have been a member of this forum for 12 1/2 years and "Search" does not work for me on this forum. I read of others who have the same problem. Then there are the vocal ones like you who have no problem with "Search". You guys drown out those with problems and it never gets fixed. One in about 5 or 6 searches work for me. The next time, "cannot find" comes up. Then the detailed Name of user, which forum, what time frame etc. No rhyme or reason to that. It has been this way for me for ages. I cannot find my own posts by typing in a name of a pen that is the title of the thread. I get the "cannot find or does not exist" message, followed by the long detailed search list. So John, don't assume that because it works for you that the other guys haven't tried. This is not the first time that I have brought this attention up, or others who have brought it up.
> 
> 3. I tried dying balsa wood a few years ago, pull a vac for hours, then put under pressure for hours (24 hour process). LESS than 1/64 penetration. I am very curious on the dye process too. I even boiled some small pieces of balsa in dye but that didn't soak in. I tried maple and it only worked about than 1/16 inch inward. Of course when I did that I used some dyes used to tint acrylic casting and the instructions were in Japanese! I think I followed the instructions well enough.
> 
> Does the wood need to be dried? to what percentage?  Does maple and other closed grain woods absorb it or does open grained wood like oak do better in the home shop process?
> 
> Thanks Roger for bringing this subject up again. Better clarification is needed.
Click to expand...

Thank you, Hank.  I appreciate that thoughtful response.  



Brooks803 said:


> If the wood doesn't need stabilizing couldn't you just dye the turned blank prior to a sealing finish? That'd save you a lot of time and materials.


The problem I see with that is the dye I'm using is water based, so the blank would have to soak in it.  It would then swell which would require additional sanding, which would then sand all the dye off. 



KenV said:


> You did not detail size of pieces, preparation, extent of vacuum.  All these make a difference, but none of the processes I know of is perfect for even distribution of color, especially in more dense and figured woods.


Good points.  I was using apricot blanks (.75" x .75" x 5.5") that were down to about 6% moisture content.  I had them submerged in the dye solution in a 94% vacuum for 4.5 hours.  I then released the vacuum and let them soak for an additional 18 hrs.



lyonsacc said:


> A dye "working" on wood is one thing.  Penetrating wood is another.
> 
> I am not an expert on this, but have read and done some.
> Some dyes can be mixed with a medium (i.e. cactus juice - used to stabilize wood) and they "fully" mix with the medium in such a way that the color pigment is "small" enough to penetrate the wood. Realize that to penetrate the wood, the pigment has to be small enough to get around or through the cellular structure of the wood.  My understanding is that the pigment in most dyes is not small enough, and thus can't make it past the first bit of the outer layer of what is being dyed.  Kind of like a coffee filter.  You may need to experiment with different types of dye and the medium you mix it with to find a combination that penetrates.


True.  Now that you mention it, I seem to remember reading something similar about particle size while doing my initial research.


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## RogerC

Marc said:


> I have done a bit of the dying and stabilizing also.
> 
> My input mirrors some of the others, but I will say the moisture content, wood density, strength of the vacuum, and type of dye are all factors.  As lyonsacc said, some woods cannot be dyed.  Redwood is one such wood.
> 
> The process I used almost always involved stabilizing as well.  In a process similar to the one used with Cactus juice, wrapping the wood after it has been vacuum soaked, and then cooking until the stabilizer has crystallized works for me.
> 
> Red dyes for the most part don't turn out red, except on the surface.  The portion that has penetrated has almost always been pink.
> 
> Dying wood is a lot of fun and can produce some excellent blanks.  I found Jonathon's comment (I mean Brooks 803) to be very practical.  Just dying the surface of a finished blank can produce quick and brilliant results, even in red.  Setting the dye may require spray lacquer or other finish to keep it from smudging.
> 
> Good luck and have fun with it.


Thanks, Marc.  I'd thought about dying and setting with a lacquer coat before final coating with CA, but I wanted to exhaust all my vacuum dying options first.  From everything I'm hearing, though, it just may not be practical.


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## leehljp

RogerC said:


> jttheclockman said:
> 
> 
> 
> www.penturners.org/forum/f178/double-dye-stabilizer-105693/
> 
> In search feature I typed vacuumed dyed wood. Took 30 seconds and there were many hits. Here is one of them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's odd.  I tried doing a search for "dye", and nothing came up.  Not even this thread which has the word "dye" in the title, and that took even less than 30 seconds.
Click to expand...


Roger,

I get the same results. For those NOT having problems, their assumption is that you (and I) are doing it wrong. It is SIMPLE, but as you wrote, we don't get the results. 

I do get results in about 1 in 5 searches. I wish someone here with authority would explain or help with this issue.


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## bmachin

Hank and Roger,

When it comes to stuff like this, I'm about as knowledgable as Winnie the Pooh and also have about as much authority.  But for what it's worth, I suspect the there is a minimum string length required for a search which would explain why "dye" doesn't work.  "Pen" doesn't work either.  I have no explanation for any other problems though.

Now excuse me while I go pick some fluff out of my ear.

Bill


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## jttheclockman

Hank and others, I can not help with your problem with the search feature. Talk to Jeff don't just post it here. Things get lost within a thread and never get seen. I will say this, in the blue heading the word search is the third button in from the right. If you click on it there are sooooooooooooo many ways to do your search. Many windows open up. You can look for a thread, a topic, a word, a name and so on. I like to use the top box and have the show thread button clicked. If I get a no response I change the wording or add words or subtract words, making sure I stay away from any symbols, contractions, or other non letter items. You can set that up many different ways. It may just be your settings that is not allowing you to do things. Again talk to Jeff. Then there is the other search feature which is on the front page on the left hand side and it is a google search within the forum.  There is a thread here that explains how to use the search feature here. 
Other question is the use of cook, which means to cook the wood in water and boil it to open the pores and then vacuum. But as I said not all woods are made to dye. Pros have much stronger vac systems to dye woods.


Let me post this too because I think people are afraid of going to the library from their younger days. But there is soooooooooo much info there.

Go to Library and click Forum INFO
Then click on General Forum FAQ and read till you get tired and then come back again tomorrow and read some more. It will explain all the functions of the site including the search features here.


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## Woodchipper

Most searches I have found need words with more than three letters.  Search with a phrase instead of one word.


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## leehljp

Just for clarification's sake:

1. I do use more than 3 letters.

Recently I was looking for my "30 pieces of Silver" pen and also my "Baron PenStripe" and it returned with the advanced search's "fill in the blanks as to who, when, which forum etc. BTW, I have the links in a database file and have to go to them on occasion as I can't get them up in "search". 

Now to be honest, on occasion it does work.

2. John, the point behind my telling folks that the search doesn't work right is not aimed at Jeff in that post, it is aimed at those that seem to think if it works for them and not the other person, then it is the other person's fault. NO, don't blame the other person necessarily as you did in your post on "do a search". That is purely condescending. Instead, you should ask, "have you done a search or searches?" Or "did you use more than 3 or 4 letters in the search." Or, "what words did you use in the search", then this helps isolate the problem instead of blaming. Kindness goes a long way!

It is very much like the car problem for some people - that goes away as soon as you drive into the dealership shop, and returns as soon as you leave. 

"Do a search!"  . . . come on guys, some and many have. What drives new people away is getting barked at for doing the right things but getting negative results and then getting condescending comments without the commenter knowing the truth behind it.


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## JohnU

I can't help you with dyes and or if that's the problem, but if it's penetration your having problems with you can also drill a small hole down through the center of your blank. When stabilizing I've drilled 7mm holes to give the juice another entry and give air another exit so the middle isn't so hard to reach.


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## jttheclockman

leehljp said:


> Just for clarification's sake:
> 
> 1. I do use more than 3 letters.
> 
> Recently I was looking for my "30 pieces of Silver" pen and also my "Baron PenStripe" and it returned with the advanced search's "fill in the blanks as to who, when, which forum etc. BTW, I have the links in a database file and have to go to them on occasion as I can't get them up in "search".
> 
> Now to be honest, on occasion it does work.
> 
> 2. John, the point behind my telling folks that the search doesn't work right is not aimed at Jeff in that post, it is aimed at those that seem to think if it works for them and not the other person, then it is the other person's fault. NO, don't blame the other person necessarily as you did in your post on "do a search". That is purely condescending. Instead, you should ask, "have you done a search or searches?" Or "did you use more than 3 or 4 letters in the search." Or, "what words did you use in the search", then this helps isolate the problem instead of blaming. Kindness goes a long way!
> 
> It is very much like the car problem for some people - that goes away as soon as you drive into the dealership shop, and returns as soon as you leave.
> 
> "Do a search!"  . . . come on guys, some and many have. What drives new people away is getting barked at for doing the right things but getting negative results and then getting condescending comments without the commenter knowing the truth behind it.



So right Hank and you are driving me away!!


Hank I do not care to hash this search stuff out again and again. If you do not like my comments do not read them please. I am who I am. If you are having a search problem and anyone else having a search problem go to the help source and that would be Jeff. I gave you the link to the library article and it explains search feature and a whole lot of other things. Doing searches is not something new. Every forum has some sort of a feature for this. So unless we have people just getting their first computer this should not come as some sort of new idea. Why is the words do a search so taboo. 

I did not say do a search In my post #2 . You took that post and made it into this. I am seriously thinking of stopping all my replys to any questions and just keep my thoughts to myself. I am getting so tired of this. People reading into my comments and twisting to suit their needs. Good luck with your search problems and please get back to the OP question.


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## RogerC

jttheclockman said:


> So right Hank and you are driving me away!!
> 
> 
> Hank I do not care to hash this search stuff out again and again. If you do not like my comments do not read them please. I am who I am. If you are having a search problem and anyone else having a search problem go to the help source and that would be Jeff. I gave you the link to the library article and it explains search feature and a whole lot of other things. Doing searches is not something new. Every forum has some sort of a feature for this. So unless we have people just getting their first computer this should not come as some sort of new idea. Why is the words do a search so taboo.
> 
> I did not say do a search In my post #2 . You took that post and made it into this. I am seriously thinking of stopping all my replys to any questions and just keep my thoughts to myself. I am getting so tired of this. People reading into my comments and twisting to suit their needs. Good luck with your search problems and please get back to the OP question.


John, when you initially posted your first comment, which was just a link to another thread, I didn't take any offense to it.  However, when you then edited that post to include a snarky comment, that was kind of like saying, "Yeah, I've thought about it, and I want to be a jerk here."

I don't know the history of the relationships or personalities around here.  I'm just calling that one like I see it.


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## jttheclockman

Roger, please do not do this. You do not know me as I do not know you. There are certain people here that just jump on every little thing I say here. I have had people go off on me because I use multiple ??? after a question. 

I edited that post to change the link I gave you. The first one was not as informative as the one I left there. I was going to give you a link to the entire page of threads but i told you the words I used to find it. Read what you want into it just like all the others. I am done commenting on threads here. Good luck to you as you continue in your pen making adventures and hope you find the answer to your question here.


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## jeff

I apologize for missing this thread.

On the menubar of every page there is a "search" pick. At the bottom of the window that comes up when that is clicked is "IAP Site Search". That is a full text index of our entire content, library and forum, maintained by Google. That is a highly reliable search, aided by our nightly upload of sitemaps. 

The other search options are, sadly, hit or miss. They offer some indexing features that Google does not, such as a date range, thread starter, etc., but it doesn't work very well. I added the Google site search in 2012, but apparently it is not well known.


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