# barrel trimmer injuries..fess it up!



## workinforwood (Jun 24, 2011)

Who has injured themselves with a barrel trimmer and how did you do it? Lets be honest...you might know the dangers and how to use one safely but perhaps at an earlier stage you made a mistake, or even as a veteran got lazy one day and it came back to bite you!  And..also who has tried the barrel trimmer in the drill press? I've heard the stories from many over the years here in a thread here and a thread there, but some people think they are a very safe tool ...how safe is it really? Not to say you can't or should not use a barrel trimmer. Yes there are other ways, such as me I just use collet chuck and face blanks with a chisel, but that's not what this is about, I just want to hear about barrel trimmer mishaps.

Heck...I'll go first.  I put a barrel trimmer in drill press and blank in a vise. The vise was not clamped down. I used the pilot to line up hole before clamping the vise to the blank. I turned on the drill press, no prob. Pulled down the lever..well the tube was cocked a bit as far as parallel with the trimmer..I thought it was straight, but probably off by just a fraction of a degree, the tip of the pilot bit has a bit of a tooth cut in it which dug into the tube and grabbed the vise and spun it around into the post. My hand was holding down the vise..I lost lots of skin off my knuckles.

I had a pen barrel completely finished, it was a slim line. I assembled the pen and the two barrels didn't fit together quite flush. Seems something was wrong, one of the barrels must not be square. So being in a hurry and figuring I just need a quick light zip with a barrel trimmer, I grab the nice round finished barrel in my hand. Hey..if it catches, it won't hurt me like a square blank could, so life is good. Well..that's true, but as I plunged the barrel down on to the trimmer head my hand slipped due to the pen being so slippery smooth and took some nice flesh off the side of my pinky finger.

I may have had a few other minor incidents, but those are the only two that really stuck with me. I knew both times not to do it too, but I did anyhow. Can't happen to me right?


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## TomW (Jun 24, 2011)

This thread documents my run-in with barrel trimmer, live center and CA glue in rapid succession...

Tom


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## G1Pens (Jun 24, 2011)

I do all my work on the lathe and use a barrel trimmer. No issues at all. HOWEVER. I think it was the first month I was making pens. I was a true newbie. Never make anything on a lathe before. I would hand hold the blank with the barrell trimmer in a hand held drill. Worked great the first few times. I would go nice and slow not applying a lot of pressure. One day it wasn't "trimming" as fast as I thought it should, so I pushed a little harder with the drill....better....until it caught. Of course it twisted the square blank in my hand, which was holding that blank very tightly. I let go pretty quick but not before I lost a little skin off my palm. Nothing really serious. Took off enought that I'll never do it again though, not even if desperate. Other than that, I've had no issues...but then again I've only been at this for about 9 months.


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## ohiococonut (Jun 24, 2011)

Before I found this site I "learned" from watching your tube videos. Just hold the blank in your hand and use a hand drill. Tried that the first month I started turning until one day it grabbed. I had a tight grip on the blank so I lost some meat on my palm. I use a centering vise on my drill press and have had no problems.


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## JimB (Jun 24, 2011)

Uh oh, I'm going to disappoint you. I use the same method as Gary - cordless drill in one hand and blank in the other hand. The thing is, I wear a leather glove. I've had a few blanks spin due to a catch but didn't even feel it with the glove.

I'll try to have a better story next time...


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## workinforwood (Jun 24, 2011)

Uh yea Gary, an injury is an injury even if u don't need bandaids


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## TomW (Jun 24, 2011)

workinforwood said:


> Uh yea Gary, an injury is an injury even if u don't need bandaids



Or CA...


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## Mapster (Jun 24, 2011)

Once in Woodcraft I actually went to use a blank drill centering dingy on a drill press... Not my forte, I use a hand drill. Didn't have it clamped down, whole thing started shaking violently, jumping, spinning in a circle, couldn't move my hand to shut it off very quick and once I did, I put my other hand down on the top of a drill bit with a nice point on it. I think it counts as a squaring injury


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## Drstrangefart (Jun 24, 2011)

I just always used a clamp. The clamp is basically handheld and portable, and feeling it tug on the clamp told me barehanded was bad news.


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## truckfixr (Jun 24, 2011)

I've always used a barrel trimmer in my drill press. I hold the blank with a pair of channel locks. I've screwed up a blank here and there, but never had any injuries doing so. I think the biggest problem is carelessness. Pretty much every tool we use can cause injury if we aren't watching what we are doing. Doing the same thing over and over can bring a false sense of security, and we get careless. That's when blood flows.


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## w5brw (Jun 24, 2011)

I have a small drill press setup with the barrel trimmer (7mm) and normally don't have any issues.  Well...  Till I tried to square a blank that i had used a "repurposed" brass on, the brass was about 1/2" shorter than normal since it was from an experiment that went wrong.  Anyway...  Long story short I wasn’t thinking and held the blank in my bare hand and supported the bottom with the edge of my finger.  Began pushing it up on the trimmer and it cleanly squared up the blank, then the bit came out of the bottom and sliced into the side of my finger. :doctor:  
 
Nice half-moon cut on the side of the knuckle...    Little black tape and paper towel for a band-aid and back to work we go...:biggrin:


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## scroller99 (Jun 24, 2011)

I usually hold the blank with a pair of pliers and a drill but many moons ago I did the blank spin in my palm not fun H


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## Drstrangefart (Jun 24, 2011)

w5brw said:


> I have a small drill press setup with the barrel trimmer (7mm) and normally don't have any issues.  Well...  Till I tried to square a blank that i had used a "repurposed" brass on, the brass was about 1/2" shorter than normal since it was from an experiment that went wrong.  Anyway...  Long story short I wasn’t thinking and held the blank in my bare hand and supported the bottom with the edge of my finger.  Began pushing it up on the trimmer and it cleanly squared up the blank, then the bit came out of the bottom and sliced into the side of my finger. :doctor:
> 
> Nice half-moon cut on the side of the knuckle...    Little black tape and paper towel for a band-aid and back to work we go...:biggrin:



It's been a rarity for me to encounter someone else that knows Band-Aid ingredients. Had to do that ALL THE TIME as a kid (don't ask why). No one understood how it worked. Nice!


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## PaulDoug (Jun 24, 2011)

I've had several, all my fault, but I don't worry the little cuts, abrasions, drills through the leg stuff. When I was a kid scabs and scars were badges if honor.  I guess I never out grew it.


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## DSurette (Jun 24, 2011)

I use a cordless drill in my right hand and a heavy leather glove to hold the blank in my left hand.  So far no problems.


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## Mason Kuettel (Jun 24, 2011)

truckfixr said:


> I've always used a barrel trimmer in my drill press. I hold the blank with a pair of channel locks. I've screwed up a blank here and there, but never had any injuries doing so. I think the biggest problem is carelessness. Pretty much every tool we use can cause injury if we aren't watching what we are doing. Doing the same thing over and over can bring a false sense of security, and we get careless. That's when blood flows.


 
Same method I've used since day one.  Takes a little extra time since I only have one drill press, but I think it is worth it.  I tried using the drill a time or two to see if I could save time, but didn't like the feeling of pushing sharp blades toward my hand while they were spinning!!


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## Smitty37 (Jun 24, 2011)

*vise grips*

I hold the blank with vise grips and use the lathe.  No problems ever if it grabs It's the blank or the tube that takes the hurt.


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## hehndc (Jun 24, 2011)

I most always put the blank in a vise and use the trimmer in the drill press.  If the end needs a light touch, I hold it in my hand.  Maybe I've been lucky, no injuries (yet).

steve


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## Nikitas (Jun 24, 2011)

Like a dumb A$$ I held the blank in my hand and well.....I ripped my thumb up just a bit....That was the last time I did that!!!!


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## boxerman (Jun 24, 2011)

I have held the blank in my hand and torn some skin off my hand done it a couple times. Now i use a vise to hold the blank.


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## its_virgil (Jun 24, 2011)

Seems to me if a drill or drill press coupled with pliers is needed to square the ends of a pen blank then way too much wood is needing removed. Could the blanks be cut way too long? It also seems to me that a pen mill is a tool to be used with a handle as a hand tool. But, I seem to be in the minority here. Have I used a pen mill in a drill? a drill press? in a collet chuck on a lathe? Yes to all three but I didn't like it. Only done out of necessity when in someone else's shop. 

Oh, the question was about injuries....for me only a few minor ones in someone else's shop using a pen mill as a power tool. No injuries from a pen mill used as a hand tool in my own shop. Actually, most of my squaring is done on a disc sander.

Do a good turn daily!
Don


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## sbwertz (Jun 24, 2011)

I square my blanks on the sander until they are ALMOST down to the brass, then use a barrel trimmer in a pin vise and turn it by hand to do the last bit of squaring up.  The barrel trimmer has never bitten me, but I've sanded the end off my finger on the disc sander TWICE (I'm a slow learner.)


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## PenMan1 (Jun 24, 2011)

I try to completely avoid the pen mill. Many of the alternative materials that I use (Casein , immediately comes to mind) do not like the trimmers. I do always cut the barrels longer than the tubes. But I use a sanding mill or a squaring jig on my disc/belt sanding machine. 

Sometimes I just face the ends with a skew tip. 

Those things just work better for me than pen mills.....those things are dangerous


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## Alexanderpens (Jun 25, 2011)

All I can say is that long hair and a drill press with rapid bending over is never a good combination. Similar stories include a lathe and a dremel.


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## clapiana (Jun 25, 2011)

Never had issues I use my disk sander until I just hear the "brass" and I finish off by hand with a barrel trimmer which is mounted in a wooden handle.   The disk sander with  my mounted "jig" (that being a piece of pine clamped 90 deg to the disk) works well for me


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## RHossack (Jun 25, 2011)

I very rarely ever use one of those things anymore since I have my disk sander. 

I hold the blank in my hand and use my 19V drill when I do.   What you don't want to do is use it cupped in your hand with a blank that is shorter than shank.  

Makes a neat perfectly round hole in your palm.


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## Bellsy (Jun 25, 2011)

I now use either a two flute or a four flute carbide end mill versus the pen mill. The sander is used before the final assembly.

Dave


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## workinforwood (Jun 25, 2011)

ok..so far we have 12-13 injuries. I know there's tons more than that happened out there.  Of course we all know there's a right and wrong way to use one and we know there's alternatives to using one at all.  I figure even the guys that wear gloves, it's just a matter of time you have a piece of wood with a loose corner like a splinter that will do some nice damage through that glove! Just a theory but sounds logical to me.

I like hearing especially from people that have been making pens a long time, because I figure it's like riding a motorcycle...there's guys that have fallen off the bike and guys that will eventually fall off the bike, and in the end pretty near everyone falls off the bike! I got a 2 count on that one too! :wink:

Of course none of this means don't use a barrel trimmer if you want, or don't ride a motorcycle, it just means there's a definite danger involved that is possibly  a bit higher in occurrence than some other things you might use, and we are all human so even having common sense doesn't mean you won't throw it out the window on occasion.


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## Florida Marine (Jun 25, 2011)

I just use my hand and the drill...  

When I had the Penn State Carbide set - it ripped my palm up once or twice and ruined a blank or four, but since I sent it back, the HSS ones does not catch like the two blade carbide POS did.

Guess I must have manly hands, it really doesn't bother me much.


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## GColeman (Jun 25, 2011)

RHossack said:


> I very rarely ever use one of those things anymore since I have my disk sander.
> 
> I hold the blank in my hand and use my 19V drill when I do.   What you don't want to do is use it cupped in your hand with a blank that is shorter than shank.
> *
> Makes a neat perfectly round hole in your palm.*



That's my story too.  I was trimming Sierras no problem.  Switched to slims and ran the pilot through the blank and into my palm.  Perfect round hole with no CA to clean out.


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## jttheclockman (Jun 25, 2011)

Just like with all tools and especially ones that can cut there are injuries and if you do something for a long time a repeticiously I am sure an injury will occur. But just like all tools when modified or used improperly I am sure the injury level will go up. 

Using the sanding disc is an alternative but to me is a slow process and I use this for finicky blanks and for finese. 

I do use a carbide trimmer and do use a handheld drill and do hold the blank in my bare hand. But here is my secret. I use a multitorque drill. This is one where you can set the torque of the drill and I set it just so that the trimmer does its cutting but will disengaged when a catch has occurred so no spinning out of my hand and dropping. I have found I need to both hear and feel the trimmer touching the brass tube and this is accomplished very easily with a multispeed and multitorqued drill motor. I have yet to injure myself using this method ( I did say yet). No need to run a drill full speed when using a trimmer. I find the trimmer to give me a perfect 90 degree relation between the tube and the edge of the blank and being I do alot of metal blanks I need this. 

So be careful out there.


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## trickydick (Jun 25, 2011)

When I first started making pens I used the drill press and stupidly held the blank with my hands......until I slipped...ouch.   

Today, I still use the drill press but use channel locks to hold the blank.


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## jasontg99 (Jun 25, 2011)

Ive never had a blank grabbed by the trimmer because I keep them very sharp...which leads me into how I sliced my finger.  I had just trimmed a blank and saw the teeth were full of material so I stupidly tried to clean out the gunk with my finger.  Blood everywhere.  I have not made that mistake since.


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## sbwertz (Jun 26, 2011)

jasontg99 said:


> Ive never had a blank grabbed by the trimmer because I keep them very sharp...which leads me into how I sliced my finger. I had just trimmed a blank and saw the teeth were full of material so I stupidly tried to clean out the gunk with my finger. Blood everywhere. I have not made that mistake since.


 
What do you use to sharpen yours?  I have been using a small diamond hone with mixed results.


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## jasontg99 (Jun 26, 2011)

I use a small diamond hone with a little sharpening oil.  Trick is to keep the angle consistant.  Once you master that, it is extremely quick and simple.


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## JimB (Jun 26, 2011)

jasontg99 said:


> I use a small diamond hone with a little sharpening oil. Trick is to keep the angle consistant. Once you master that, it is extremely quick and simple.


 
You avoid the angle problem by not sharpening on the angle. The proper way is to sharpen on the flat side. You can find instructions in the library. I also use one of those small diamond files.


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## sbell111 (Jun 28, 2011)

workinforwood said:


> ok..so far we have 12-13 injuries. I know there's tons more than that happened out there.  Of course we all know there's a right and wrong way to use one and we know there's alternatives to using one at all.  I figure even the guys that wear gloves, it's just a matter of time you have a piece of wood with a loose corner like a splinter that will do some nice damage through that glove! Just a theory but sounds logical to me.
> 
> I like hearing especially from people that have been making pens a long time, because I figure it's like riding a motorcycle...there's guys that have fallen off the bike and guys that will eventually fall off the bike, and in the end pretty near everyone falls off the bike! I got a 2 count on that one too! :wink:
> 
> Of course none of this means don't use a barrel trimmer if you want, or don't ride a motorcycle, it just means there's a definite danger involved that is possibly  a bit higher in occurrence than some other things you might use, and we are all human so even having common sense doesn't mean you won't throw it out the window on occasion.


There is inherent danger involved with every single tool that lives in our shops.  With each and every one, that danger is mitigated by following the 'rules'.  

Table saws have cut peoples fingers right off.  That doesn't mean that we don't use table saws.  It merely means that we ensure that our fingers never go near the spinning blade o' death.

The same goes for barrel trimmers.  As I stated in the thread that spawned this one, "I cannot think of a single safety issue associated with properly using a drill press to trim a securely held blank."  The responses to this thread reinforce this thesis as no one has reported an injury involved with a barrel trimmer chucked into a drill press and used on a properly secured blank.  

In my mind, this thread adequately counters your earlier position:





workinforwood said:


> Looks a bit dangerous to me, and if you put it in a drill press then you definitely have reached the danger factor! Never ever ever ever do barrel trimming in a drill press.


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## monark88 (Jun 28, 2011)

I'm probably gonna get booed here for my opinions/statements, but I don't wonder some people are experiencing injuries. Using a pair of pliers with a hand held drill, or especially a drill press!?

Little wonder indeed. I use only a drill press, blank vise. I keep my hands away from the business end of the pen mill. Use the right tool for the job. And gloves? Gloves have no place in the workshop to be used on any machine that goes round and round. 

Of course, My opinions, but........

Russ


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## workinforwood (Jun 28, 2011)

You mean nobody but ME has so far reported injuring themselves using a barrel trimmer and drill press together. So we do have one and there is more out there that haven't said so is all.  Of course, like you say, any tool is dangerous, but what I am saying is there's ways to make tools even more dangerous, be it by how you use it or be it your mental state at that time.  A table saw blade goes in a table saw. It's real dangerous there, but that's the proper use and there is guards to assist safety. You can also mount a table saw blade on the end of a weed wacker...but is that a good idea? I think the proper tool for using a barrel trimmer is a hand held drill  and the blank held in a vise. The vise makes the blank not able to move. The hand held drill is able to free float in the tube at any angle, where as a drill press can not float it can only go straight up and down. This is just my opinion though, as the inventor of the barrel trimmer doesn't specify it's proper use, just fills his pockets with money.  There are better ways to trim blanks than a trimmer, and more accurate too, but that's besides the point.


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## sbell111 (Jun 28, 2011)

workinforwood said:


> You mean nobody but ME has so far reported injuring themselves using a barrel trimmer and drill press together.


As I recall, your injury was due to your not properly securing your vise. You made my point rather than refuting it.


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## jttheclockman (Jun 29, 2011)

The one thing I would caution when putting the blank in a vise is not too much pressure or else you will deform the thin brass tube. Does not take much force and if one is using those resin saver molds then there is not much meat to protect the tube. I disagree with better ways to trim ends. There are other ways but better is not the way I see it. 

We all find our confort zones when working with power tools. Safety should always be the top concern. If it does not feel right it probably is not right.


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## HSTurning (Jun 29, 2011)

+1 added the glove after lossing some skin on my left hand


JimB said:


> Uh oh, I'm going to disappoint you. I use the same method as Gary - cordless drill in one hand and blank in the other hand. The thing is, I wear a leather glove. I've had a few blanks spin due to a catch but didn't even feel it with the glove.
> 
> I'll try to have a better story next time...


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## jcm71 (Jun 29, 2011)

I haven't used a barrel trimmer for months now.  I found my barrel trimmer was getting too dull too fast and was therefore dangerous..  I square my blanks using a disc sander with homemade jig permanently set at 90 degree.   Just got to make sure I don't get too aggressive with the sanding.

Burlman

http://www.wellturnedpens.com



> It just goes to show that wherever you go, there you are.


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## workinforwood (Jun 29, 2011)

jttheclockman said:


> The one thing I would caution when putting the blank in a vise is not too much pressure or else you will deform the thin brass tube. Does not take much force and if one is using those resin saver molds then there is not much meat to protect the tube. I disagree with better ways to trim ends. There are other ways but better is not the way I see it.
> 
> We all find our confort zones when working with power tools. Safety should always be the top concern. If it does not feel right it probably is not right.



it's just a difference of opinion on whether other ways are better or not..an argument that likely can never be won. The upside to my way though is no matter what the size, it's all the same tool. Long before barrel trimmers where invented, facing existed and it will exist long after. The amount of time it takes is definitely a little longer but hardly much,  the end result is absolutely dead nuts as it can ever be, .0002 on my lathe, barely any heat is generated, never any tear out and the brass is always completely visible so it's impossible not to know you are there. The blank is secure, the cutter is secure and your hands are nowhere near by to get injured either.  Since obtaining the equipment and know how to face anything, I'd never even think about using a barrel trimmer again. Like you think of the barrel trimmer, I think the opposite! :biggrin:


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## ctubbs (Jun 29, 2011)

First off, there is no such thing as a perfectly safe tool that works.  We all have our ways to get the job done.  Me, I have a 2 X 4 resting on the DP table with the trimmer in the chuck.  The blank is held with ChannelLox in an ungloved hand(gloves are not allowed around moving equipment in my shop).  The DP speed is set near the low end and the blank end is squared resting on the 2X.  Once in a fit of idiocy, I tried to hold the blank barehanded for trimming.  That was an Ouchie!  Never again!  No blood flowed and no parts were hanging that time.  Got lucky.  Before doing anything in the shop, stop and use your head for something besides holding your hat.  The more urgent the action, the more important to thing before doing something.  I have seen way too many dangerous actions, minor accidents and even fatal ones in my years of working construction.  Nothing is so important in our hobby as to get yourself injured or even killed because we were in a rush for some reason.  THINK!  DANG IT, JUST THINK!
Charles


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## jttheclockman (Jun 30, 2011)

workinforwood said:


> jttheclockman said:
> 
> 
> > The one thing I would caution when putting the blank in a vise is not too much pressure or else you will deform the thin brass tube. Does not take much force and if one is using those resin saver molds then there is not much meat to protect the tube. I disagree with better ways to trim ends. There are other ways but better is not the way I see it.
> ...


 

Jeff
  I looked at your post and you talked barrel trimmer and also
I looked back at your post and no where did you mention how you trimmed your pens ( except for some mishaps)but from this post I am guessing you face them off using your lathe when mounted in some sort of chuck. You say you can get within .0002 and I like to know how you measure that one but none the less there can also be a down side to your method if I read what you are doing right. Maybe you should explain more and I can be totally off base here. But when squaring an end using a lathe can present problems because you need to square both ends. Both ends need to be at exact opposites. If using square blanks there can be a difference in relation to the outside of the blank to the end when turning around to do opposite end. This also can occur even using a collet chuck. Yes facing has been around as long as the lathe and is the best way to join 2 pieces of material before turning. 


When using a lathe I see no way to reference the tube sides 90 degress to the ends except if using a sanding disc and even that is subjective to equipment tolerances. 

Would appreciate more info as to your method of squaring your blanks if you don't mind. Thanks.


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## workinforwood (Jun 30, 2011)

First thing you do is trim blank nice and close to the tubes. Then you mount the blank between centers. You turn on the lathe, engage the cross action and go back and forth across the blank until it is round and not only is it round but it is now round and totally parallel with the tube. You then put the round blank in a collet and you pull up the tail to make sure the blank is sitting perfectly in the collet.  You then engage the facing wheel and the machine runs forward pealing off the face of the blank making it perfectly straight and perfectly square with the tube.  To verify, I can use a test guage with a magnetic base..this is how I get my .0002 number...not that I need test every blank I do but this is how I know how accurate. I stick the meter in the tube and watch it bounce. If it pretty much doesn't move, then I know the blank is dead straight in the chuck. Then put the ball on the face of the blank, and read it again, and the average I generally have is .0002.  Facing the opposite end is exactly the same, just flip blank, pull up the tail to align it, push the trigger forward and the lathe faces off the front.  It's perfect every time, regardless what size of a tube goes in. I can't say there's zero danger involved, but darn near any danger there could be would be user stupidity...something I posses like anyone else at times too. Like one time I was wearing a large flannel shirt and it dangled down and got wrapped up in the screw...no damage to me, just the shirt, but that was stupidity on my part...otherwise, I'm not sure how you can get injured when you basically just push a lever and stand there.  The amount of material being removed is minute and doesn't fly across the room anywhere, just peals back and falls down the chip tray.  If I was using a wood lathe, I'd do everything the same, but I'd have to use a parting tool. As it is, I just use a carbide parting bit and it takes forever for it to get dull but when it does, it's $2 to replace and takes about 3 seconds to change out.


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## jttheclockman (Jun 30, 2011)

workinforwood said:


> First thing you do is trim blank nice and close to the tubes. Then you mount the blank between centers. You turn on the lathe, engage the cross action and go back and forth across the blank until it is round and not only is it round but it is now round and totally parallel with the tube. You then put the round blank in a collet and you pull up the tail to make sure the blank is sitting perfectly in the collet. You then engage the facing wheel and the machine runs forward pealing off the face of the blank making it perfectly straight and perfectly square with the tube. To verify, I can use a test guage with a magnetic base..this is how I get my .0002 number...not that I need test every blank I do but this is how I know how accurate. I stick the meter in the tube and watch it bounce. If it pretty much doesn't move, then I know the blank is dead straight in the chuck. Then put the ball on the face of the blank, and read it again, and the average I generally have is .0002. Facing the opposite end is exactly the same, just flip blank, pull up the tail to align it, push the trigger forward and the lathe faces off the front. It's perfect every time, regardless what size of a tube goes in. I can't say there's zero danger involved, but darn near any danger there could be would be user stupidity...something I posses like anyone else at times too. Like one time I was wearing a large flannel shirt and it dangled down and got wrapped up in the screw...no damage to me, just the shirt, but that was stupidity on my part...otherwise, I'm not sure how you can get injured when you basically just push a lever and stand there. The amount of material being removed is minute and doesn't fly across the room anywhere, just peals back and falls down the chip tray. If I was using a wood lathe, I'd do everything the same, but I'd have to use a parting tool. As it is, I just use a carbide parting bit and it takes forever for it to get dull but when it does, it's $2 to replace and takes about 3 seconds to change out.


 

Well now you are in a whole other league my friend. Not all of us have a metal lathe. Didn't see that one coming. Good for you and continued success with it. What you describe could not be done as accurately with a wood lathe but I will stick with the barrel trimmer. Thanks for the reply and keep up the great work.


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## workinforwood (Jun 30, 2011)

Is that cheating? :biggrin:

I think you can do just as good with a wood lathe, collet and parting tool. You add the danger factor of holding a chisel in your hands, but the accuracy doesn't have to be less. you tune your collet chuck and you can make a jig like Malcom Tibbets uses to face his bowl blanks..basically just a little wood sliding device to hold your chisel straight and even. I bet he produces better square on his huge bowls from a wood lathe than any barrel trimmer can produce on a pen. Barrel trimmers have some slop in the tube, as not all tubes are exactly the same diameter inside and out and the sleeves get worn down..it's generally pretty minimal and has little effect for your average kit pen, but if you were making a metal pen and metal parts and putting them together flush, the difference would then become very noticeable between a trimmer and facing on a lathe.


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## sbell111 (Jun 30, 2011)

workinforwood said:


> ...otherwise, I'm not sure how you can get injured when you basically just push a lever and stand there.  ... As it is, I just use a carbide parting bit and it takes forever for it to get dull but when it does, it's $2 to replace and takes about 3 seconds to change out.


The interesting thing is that the two points you just made are the same ones that I would have made for using a barrel trimmer.  

1)  How can I get hurt?  I'm just standing there pulling a lever that is a good foot or two from the action.

2)  Barrel trimmer head gotten dull?  Throw it out.  They only cost a couple bucks to replace, after all.



workinforwood said:


> Barrel trimmers have some slop in the tube, as not all tubes are exactly the same diameter inside and out and the sleeves get worn down.


I'm not sure what you mean by 'sleeves'.  Now days, you can buy trimmer shafts for just about every size tube we use.  There is little reason to 'sleeve' trimmer shafts to account for different size tubes.  Right now, in a small rack next to my drill press, I have seven or eight barrel trimmers of various sizes ready to go.  I can't think of a pen that I don't have a shaft to fit.

Also, it should be noted that using a drill press you can reasonably guarantee that you are trimming the blank square to the tube (both because you maintain your drill press table to be square to the drill and because you are trimming on the same plane as you drilled).



workinforwood said:


> it's generally pretty minimal and has little effect for your average kit pen, but if you were making a metal pen and metal parts and putting them together flush, the difference would then become very noticeable between a trimmer and facing on a lathe.


I disagree for the reasons above.  Few machines are better at drilling a hole perfectly 90% to the table than a drill press.  That's the #1 thing it's designed for, after all.  Drilling the hole and then trimming on the same axis is not a very complicated procedure.  The fact that the same thing can be done with more steps on other machines does not prove that the drill press is a poor tool for the job.


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## workinforwood (Jul 1, 2011)

Steve, when I say sleeve, I mean shaft. The rod sticking into the brass. 

Otherwise though..I am sorry for insulting your drill press and barrel trimmer. I am tired of arguing about it, it's getting ridiculous. You believe what you want, and I'll do the same, and so we can agree to disagree I'm sure.


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## sbell111 (Jul 1, 2011)

workinforwood said:


> Steve, when I say sleeve, I mean shaft. The rod sticking into the brass.


How would the shafts wear out?  If they ever did, they would be cheaply replaced just like the trimmer heads and any piece of equipment that you use in your method.


workinforwood said:


> Otherwise though..I am sorry for insulting your drill press and barrel trimmer. I am tired of arguing about it, it's getting ridiculous. You believe what you want, and I'll do the same, and so we can agree to disagree I'm sure.


I don't consider this an argument.  It's a disagreement, sure.  Like any disagreement, the best way to sort it out is to delve into those positions to find the actual points in question.  That is what I have attempted to do.

Frankly, when looking at the reasons that you keep bringing up to explain why your way is better and my way is too dangerous, I'm not actually seeing any evidence to prove that either assertation is true.

Of course, this doesn't mean that your method is wrong.  The only thing that it means is that you haven't proven your theses that my method is dangerous or your method is technically 'better'.  In reality, your method is likely just different.


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## Daniel (Jul 1, 2011)

I hold the blank with slip joint pliers and use the barrel trimmer in the drill press. never had an issue. I do know of one turner that ended up with a broken finger from holding the blank with her bare hands. the way your trimmer bit the tube and spun the blank is exactly why you do not hold the blank in a vice. The pilot needs to be square with the tube not the blank. it's a spinning sharp object and it does not take a lot of imagination to know it can grab. if you think your bare hand is enough to overcome what might happen. well good luck to you. you would never think of holding a blank in your hand to drill it. well okay maybe it wasn't a pen blank, but I have been there and done that. Maybe that is why I've never tried to hold a pen blank while facing it. I got my boo boo's in other ways. trying to hold a block of wood while I put a quick hole in it. trying to hold a smallish board while drilling, etc. sooner or later you just figure it out or work with really sore hands.


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## louie68 (Jul 1, 2011)

(I have always use vise grips to hold the blank & use my drill press "Knocking on WOOD" no injuries !!!! been pen making for 2yrs. When using my barrel trimmer.)


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## sbwertz (Jul 1, 2011)

I used to put the pen mill in the drill press, before I got the disc sander setup.  What I did was to put the blank in my pen vise on the drill press, close it down to center it, then open it back up just enough that the blank had some "play" to center itself on the mill shaft, but was still deep enough in the "v" not to spin.  Worked for me.


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## workinforwood (Jul 1, 2011)

sbell111 said:


> Frankly, when looking at the reasons that you keep bringing up to explain why your way is better and my way is too dangerous, I'm not actually seeing any evidence to prove that either assertation is true.



A trimmer will wear down the shaft while spinning in a tube, even though the tube is a softer metal. Any body that spins between centers will verify that fact as the soft tube will wear down a hard steel center.

Far as evidence that my method is the best and right way..walk into absolutely any factory on the planet. Show me rows of drill presses drilling away and facing whatever they are drilling. The only drill press you will find will be the one in the shop mechanics room where he drills an occasional hole in something like a bracket to fix one of the factory machines. All the pen parts you purchase are spun with lathes and they are squared with lathes. If a drill press was more accurate, they wouldn't spend all that money on their swiss lathes, they'd just pay some cheap labor to pull the lever on the drill press and be way ahead. If you walked into a professional pen shop, like Mont Blank, you wouldn't find a drill press or barrel trimmer working on their plastics either. They couldn't afford the workers comp. A barrel trimmer was probably invented by some guy with a lathe that wanted to increase his production without introducing a new lathe into his shop so that he didn't have to take the few minutes of flipping a blank and facing it, and if using square pieces, he would have to round them parallel to the tubes first as well, so he came up with this little contraption which does make things much faster and does a good enough job on the average pen or game call, sold the rights or something and got rich...and along the way non-machining type people forgot about the original way which was far more accurate and safe to do. 

The drill press is the most accurate tool for drilling a 90 degree hole right?
http://www.efunda.com/processes/machining/turn_elathe_tail_stock.cfm


                    The tail stock of an engine lathe is used to provide a fixture at  the end of the part opposite from the chuck. The tail stock can be used  to support a long, thin part so that more radial cutting force can be  applied and higher rotational speeds can be attained without a  "whipping" instability effect. Below is illustrated another use for the  tail stock. Drill bits  can be fixtured in the tail stock to cut axial holes in a turned part.  These central holes are more accurate than a drill press or mill could  provide since the lathe is dedicated to operations in which an  axially-symmetric part is rotated about its central axis. The fixturing  is more accurate since all fixturing is based upon surfaces of  revolution about the central axis, and the machining is more rigidly  supported for the same reason.









*Boring*




              Boring can be accomplished on a mill or even a drill press, but is  most accurate on a lathe. The boring tool is fixtured in the tail  stock. Again, since all fixturing is relative to the central spindle  axis, boring on a lathe is more accurate than most other boring methods,  an exception being jig boring on a dedicated jig boring machine. The  length of the boring bar is of critical importance because of its  tendency to bend. The figure below illustrates a boring tool which is  double-ended so that it is less prone to the cantilever "diving board"  effect.

You can read tons of articles about how much more accurate a lathe is to a drill online, especially in/from machinist magazines such as popular mechanics or machinist magazine, or American Machinist, or go to CNC zone..the list goes on and on. The lathe is the most accurate drilling machine and the safest way to square something is to face it.


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## Woodlvr (Jul 1, 2011)

All I know is that after blowing the ends off of a few beautiful blanks, both acrylic and wood, and hearing about it happening to others I have switched to the sanding method for me, the way that my hands shake some times I should not be holding a tool anyway.


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## jttheclockman (Jul 1, 2011)

As always topics get off course and here is no exception. Jeff started this by asking about injuries while using a barrel trimmer. He mentioned he had some and I am guessing he found another way and this requires another not so cheap tool. Good for him he can afford this and has chosen to do his trimming his pens this way.

But where did we go wrong with now trying to defend the use of an industry standard barrel trimmer??? There are a ton more people using a barrel trimmer than a metal lathe so the injuries will be greater. Of course. 

Now the use of a drill press or not is again subjective. A very good pen turner that we all know( Yo Yo Spin )does it this way. The key here is to realize the injury possibilities and to take precautions. I mentioned I use a handheld drill motor and I listed the precautions I use and I find them to work very well. I have on occasion done the sanding thing but again I explained why I don't much. 

There is no exact way to trim the ends. You have options and learn to work within your means and also your abilities. Every method has built in safety concerns as well as set up concerns and weather one way is faster or not is not in the equation and if it is, you need a better hobby. 

For my use I choose the carbide barrel trimmer with any sleeve I need along with a handheld drill motor and both parts held in my bare hands with no gloves. 

I hope for the sake of the OP's beginning intent there is some insight gained as to how to avoid those injuries with this simple tool.  Good luck and work safely. No need to defend the use of barrel trimmers. They are here to stay and who knows will even be improved further.


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## GregHight (Jul 1, 2011)

I often do the same thing and use a carbide tipped trimmer in a cordless drill and for heavier grinding I use a 12" benchtop grinder with a modified squaring jig.

I have had several nasty barrell trimmer injuries since I'm not a fast learner. While I was doing hundreds of alligator jawbone pens, I would get in a hurry and just hold the piece in my hand and bump it up to the cutter heads with the drill press already on. I had several times where the bit jerked and my thumb slid up the piece and got hit by a carbide tip.

I finally wised up an started doing the heavy grinding on the benchtop grinder for the heavier jobs and a carbide trimmer in a cordless drill or a 6 head trimmer and do it by hand.


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## sbell111 (Jul 1, 2011)

jttheclockman said:


> As always topics get off course and here is no exception. Jeff started this by asking about injuries while using a barrel trimmer.


Actually, Jeff started this in another thread where he made the statement that barrel trimmers were inherently dangerous and should never, ever be used in a drill press.  This thread was a failed attempt to prove his thesis.


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## sbell111 (Jul 1, 2011)

workinforwood said:


> sbell111 said:
> 
> 
> > Frankly, when looking at the reasons that you keep bringing up to explain why your way is better and my way is too dangerous, I'm not actually seeing any evidence to prove that either assertation is true.
> ...



That was some post, but it didn't counter my position that a drill press can accurately be used to trim a pen blank.  Also, while I suppose it is true that trimmer shafts can hypothetically wear out, In thousands of uses, I have not experienced this happening.  If you did wear one out, you would just 'chuck' it in the trash and use a new one, as I previously explained.

One wonders why drill presses are even made since they are completely useless, junky machines.


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## Phunky_2003 (Jul 1, 2011)

Both of y'all are starting to remind me of when my kids were small and needed the last word on something.
:biggrin::beat-up::biggrin:

The smilies are for entertainment  purposes!


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## workinforwood (Jul 1, 2011)

Phunky_2003 said:


> Both of y'all are starting to remind me of when my kids were small and needed the last word on something.
> :biggrin::beat-up::biggrin:
> 
> The smilies are for entertainment  purposes!



James..I'm the real idot for responding.


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## Phunky_2003 (Jul 1, 2011)

No your not an idiot.  And I was just joking around trying to lighten the mood.  Easy to get caught up in something you feel strongly about.  One of the big reasons I try to stay out of "hot topics"

Look at it this way.  Lots of people have read this thread.  If it helps one person to at least be more careful while working it's served it's purpose.  I've not been hurt using a barrel trimmer but I don't use one often either.  I am looking into other alternatives due to the thread.

No I'll intentions meant.


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## sbell111 (Jul 1, 2011)

workinforwood said:


> Phunky_2003 said:
> 
> 
> > Both of y'all are starting to remind me of when my kids were small and needed the last word on something.
> ...



It wasn't 'that' you responded.  It was 'how' you responded.


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## underdog (Jul 1, 2011)

sbell111 said:


> jttheclockman said:
> 
> 
> > As always topics get off course and here is no exception. Jeff started this by asking about injuries while using a barrel trimmer.
> ...


 
 For the life of me, I can't see how. I've always used a vice, v-blocks, and a barrel trimmer on my pen blanks, and never even had a hint of a problem. Had a few blanks get split because of some gnarly grain though...

Course I've not made hundreds or thousands of pens either...

By this logic though, perhaps we shouldn't ever use a drill press for anything, even drilling....


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## ossaguy (Jul 2, 2011)

For me,I've had the best luck with rounding my blanks all to 3/4,then putting the rounded blank in the PSI collet chuck after glueing the tubes in and bandsawing the real excess material off the nib & cap ends so I don't have as much to trim.

  Then I set the indexing lock so it stays put,& then use my cordless drill & the barrel trimmer so I can trim & see exactly where the tube is easier than on the press.The bonus is being able to have the dust collector going with the hood on so I can see better.I like the "controllable feel" i get when using the cordless VS drill.

  Lastly I'll put my faceplate that has a wood base with adhesive backed sandpaper on the lathe,then use the exact-fitting Harbor Freight transfer punch in the drill chuck in the tailstock,and finish sand it lighty on the ends.

 This works the best for me..........except I have to make a magnet with a red ribbon on it to drape over the on-off switch as i occasionally forget the unlock the indexing lock pin and hit the switch & hear the belt squeel....I hate it when I forget!!!!

So no injuries here,yet ......knock on wood!

Steve


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## Fatdawg (Jul 2, 2011)

When I first started turning pens, I like many others used a cordless drill and held the blank in my bare hands and  had  countless catches tearing up my hands. I tried using my drill press then my lathe, but kept taking off too much just couldn't get the hang of it or the correct viewing angle. My solution was that I made a hand chuck. I turned a maple handle and mounted a 3/8 keyless drill chuck on the end. I cut all my blanks super close and trim then by hand using a pen mill mounted in my hand chuck. This has been working great and I'm not being over aggresive taking too much off. I touch up my mills with a card file after 20 -30 blanks.


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## TellicoTurning (Jul 3, 2011)

I haven't done any serious injury YET!... but I square up the ends using the drill press... I put the mill in the arbor and slip the shaft through the tube... I then hold the blank while I pull the arbor/mill down to try and shave the ends of the blank square.... on occasion I've either not been gripping the blank tight enough or it's a tougher blank than I can hold, especially the antlers, it'll slip and before I can move away, the blank will snag on the cutter blades spin in my hand and usually raps my thumb nails and cuticle to the point of a sever bruise or sometimes tear it a bit... hence a lot of my pens have blood in the work....


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## Bree (Jul 3, 2011)

Like some others I hold em in my hand.  I use a very heavy leather glove with winter lining.  I set the drill to slip at low resistance.  

Once I got the glove and slipped the drill, I never had the slightest problem.  I have tried the drill press, and disk sander as well as setting the drill in a horizontal boring rig.  Each one had it's own issues and sometimes very nasty ones.  

Hand holding it is the fastest way and the glove reduces the risk dramatically.  As well as being ready to release power at a moments notice helps make it one of the safest ways as far as I am concerned.

Also remember that clamping the blank in a drill press or the like means that you have locked onto a surface that isn't necessarily parallel to the tube.  You might be introducing inaccuracy on the cut because there is no give.  Once you clamp you have to be certain that you have the tube and the drill press in EXACT alignment.  Not really all that easy to do.

My $.02


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## sbwertz (Jul 3, 2011)

Fatdawg said:


> When I first started turning pens, I like many others used a cordless drill and held the blank in my bare hands and had countless catches tearing up my hands. I tried using my drill press then my lathe, but kept taking off too much just couldn't get the hang of it or the correct viewing angle. My solution was that I made a hand chuck. I turned a maple handle and mounted a 3/8 keyless drill chuck on the end. I cut all my blanks super close and trim then by hand using a pen mill mounted in my hand chuck. This has been working great and I'm not being over aggresive taking too much off. I touch up my mills with a card file after 20 -30 blanks.


 
I use a pin vise

http://www.amazon.com/General-Tools-93-Vise-0-25/dp/B000COYPG4


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## rsulli16 (Jul 5, 2011)

http://www.penturners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=76377

i did it too

Sulli


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