# What finish



## ryannmphs (Sep 30, 2004)

OK, I'm new to penturning (and fairly new to woodturning period) and I need to find out some options for finish on pens (and items like letter openers, key chains, etc.).

I know about CA, and I will prolly not use this as a finish.  I don't know if I would ever develope a reaction to it like Chuck does, but I don't want to chance it .  

I have heard of BLO, friction polish and a few others but I was wondering if a standard wood finish, like wipe on polyurathane (sp?) or stains can/will work for these items.

TIA
(Should be posting pics of my 1st 2 pens either tomorrow or friday )

Ryan


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## DCBluesman (Sep 30, 2004)

I'll leave it to others to argue the merits of their favorite finish, but I will tell you that stain offers no finish.  It merely places colored pigment between the cells.  Polyurethane will definitely work as a final coat.  Aniline dyes can actually penetrate the cell walls.  It's a small difference, but as you grow in experience, you will learn to value the difference.  Also, in reading the responses, make sure you understand that no one finish is best on all woods.  Oily woods like cocobolo need a different finish than others.


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## C_Ludwigsen (Sep 30, 2004)

Hey man, you are holding out on me!  I want to see your pens!!!

Regarding the staining...  I have not used stains because you know how I like each wood for its unique color.  But I don't see any reason you couldn't stain the barrels.  I would sand it through at least 320 or 400, then wipe on the stain evenly.  Then wipe away any excess.  Let it dry according to the directions.  Also, a stain will raise the grain a bit, so you may have to follow that with more sanding.

I see no reason you couldn't use Poly, and plan to try it as well.  I'm not sure how durable it will be, so we'll need the opinions of the group on that.

If anyone uses a Polyurethane as part of the finish regimen, let us know your techniques and results.

Thanks, Chuck.


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## DCBluesman (Sep 30, 2004)

Poly is fabulously durable when applied right.  It's used on LOTS of furniture as about the most durable protection there is.  And why not?  It's plastic.


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## wayneis (Sep 30, 2004)

The right kind of Poly works fine and will last a long time, probably as long as CA will.  I Use a Commercial grade water based Enduro Poly and William is using another kind but I'm not sure if its is comercial or not.  The Enduro is made to be used on table and bar tops so it is very hard.  As for technique, both William and I have posted ours but basicly for mine I do it just like I do CA.  I use a sanding sealer from the Violin Company that has the deals on Micro Mesh (several coats)and then sand from 3200 to 12000 with MM.  I then use Viva paper towel and apply the pole just like ca.

Wayne


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## pecartus (Sep 30, 2004)

Well you are right about it being durable and thats about the only advantage it has in use on pens, the disadvantages really outweight the advantages;
Poly has tendency to run before it drys on rounded surfaces.
Poly needs a sealer prior to application, poly especially on pourous woods, dips and gets a wavy look thats requires sanding to even out the last coat applied and then reapplication of poly sometimes up to three or four coats before it gets a even look to the finish.
Poly has a bad habit of leaving fish eyes in the finish, this probaly has to do more with a pourous wood, but have had the same effects on a tighter grain wood as well, but not as much.
Poly tends to blue the wood, especially the water based poly.
Poly takes a long time to dry, fastest time I have seen it dry has been 4 hours. Takes it a very long time to dry on oily woods i.e. Cocobolo, Bethlehem Olivewood, etc. if a sealer has not been used.
Poly shows every mistake made during the finishing process and is generally not fun to work with and can discourage a person learning how to turn pens.
Now that being said, I use poly on a lot of my flatwork I do for the durablity and the finished plastic look that a lot of my clients like. If you are starting out learning to turn pens, I would suggest an easier finish to use such as 2lb shellac, it will leave a nice finish look to the pen, plus its easier to repair the shellac finish than other popular finishes you will hear about. Notice I did'nt mention crystal coat, its a tung oil and shellac based product. It has durability problems because of the way the tung oil is used within the shellac. Shelf life is very limited, 1 year due to seperation issues of the denatured alcohol (a thinner)from the shellac.

Again I get wordy, I apologize.


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## wayneis (Sep 30, 2004)

Clearly Patrick you have not used Enduro Poly because it has non of the bad trates that you stated.  Enduro dries as fast as Lacquer, I put it on pretty heavy and its dry enough to recoat within three or four minutes.  After I have two or three coats its dry to the touch in the same.  I get a perfectly even coat on every type of wood that I have tried it on, including Cocobolo and Olive wood.  It is made to be sprayed and has a completely different make up than regular poly.  I am fifty four years old and have been doing woodworking for many of those and I don't make a habit of recomending something that I have not tried and used regularly myself with good success.  If you had read my post I said clearly, that the right kind of poly, "Enduro" (I did spell that out), works fine and I meant that.  I get an extremely high gloss shine, just like I did with CA and I don't suffer with a lot of frustration doing so.  In fact, its a pleasure because I don't get ill when using it as its not toxic and does not smell bad.  It would have been nice if you had tried the Enduro before you called me a liar.  

Is it the full moon, I've seen more nasty posts tonight than I have in a long time.

Wayne


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## Gary (Sep 30, 2004)

Wayne...where can one get the Enduro Poly?


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## pecartus (Sep 30, 2004)

Wayne,

When I replied your response had not been posted so I could read it, In my defense, I would have responded differently or most likely not responded at all, due to not being familiar with the Enduro product, but I will stick to my orginal statements about polyies in general that are sold through hardware stores, lumber yards and craft stores. Now in response to the "Lair" statement in your reply back to me, I apologize to you, that was not the intent of my response to posts before yours, again your post came in while I was in the process of replying.  I did learn something from this, and believe it or not I will try the Enduro product.


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## Mac In Oak Ridge (Sep 30, 2004)

Wayne,
Do you use the Enduro reccomended sanding sealer before the poly or just the poly right onto the blank?
Mac


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## Mac In Oak Ridge (Sep 30, 2004)

Wayne,
Never mind I see that you mentioned sealer in a post further up the page.  Looking at the Endoro information on the Compliant web site they reccomend their sanding sealer, did you try it and reject it?  

They have an offer of a quart of poly, quart of sealer and some sanding pads for $25.  Do you just buy the poly alone or to get a quart do they make you buy the sealer with it?
Mac


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## ryannmphs (Sep 30, 2004)

Wayne, thanks for the info on Enduro, I think I'm gonna give them a try.

Now for the next newbie question.  What is the difference between Lacquer and Poly?  Would one be preferred over the other for pen s (and what about other turnings)?

Wayne I look forward to your responses about the sanding sealer.

Thanks to all.

Ryan

P.S. Chuck, I haven't left you out of anything.  If you check my first post I didn't say that I had any pens complete yet.  Don't worry, you'll see my pens (I may need to come over tonight for you to do that but hey, we need a game night don't we?)


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## DCBluesman (Sep 30, 2004)

Hi Ryan.  Check out this link and the succeeding messages.  It will give you a reasonable answer to the "what is the difference" part of your question.  As for preference, the membership is all over the map on that.  I'd give em all a try and see what works best for you.  http://www.penturners.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1050&SearchTerms=laq

Chuck...feel free to move that to Finishes if you find it worthy...or make it sticky. [8D]


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## wayneis (Sep 30, 2004)

Patrick, apology excepted and you have mine in return.  I did not read the time of your post (as I should have) or I would have known that you did not have the time to read mine.

Now as for the sanding sealer, I ordered a qt of poly, a qt of sanding sealer, a bottle of the recomended Meguires Mirror Glaze and then they gave me a choise of either a sample of their stain (huge sample, about half qt.) and sanding pads.  Like I said I took the stain.  Actually I believe that their ss and the ss from the violin Co. is similar and I can't really tell you why I prefer one over the other, in fact when this little bottle runs out I'll probably go back to the other because it works fine also.  Another tip, I had bought several empty bottles in the last CA bulk buy and I used one of those to put the Poly into and drip down onto the spinning blank with the folded up towel behind just like we do when applying CA.  I do usually let the blanks sit over night before the finale sanding and polishing with Meguires.  I have also found through experimenting that using the poly directly onto the wood blank does not work as well.  If I left anything out, please feel free to ask away.

Wayne


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## wayneis (Sep 30, 2004)

Ryan I'm not a chemist and cannot tell you the difference between lacquire and poly.  I will tell why I chose one over the other though, it was the fact that it is non-toxic, no smell, I wanted to find a way to get a strong and lasting fisish with a high gloss that didn't make me sick every time I used it.  When I saw the water based poly I jumped, and I cannot take complete credit for this as someone else recomended it and I just checked it out and liked it.  It did take me awhile to find a good way to apply it.  The other thing is the cost, where else can you get everything to finish about a thousand pens for twenty five dollars?  I think that a qt will go a long way.

Wayne


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## wayneis (Sep 30, 2004)

Gary go to www.compliantspraysystems.com

Wayne


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## ilikewood (Sep 30, 2004)

Simply put, polyurethane is a thermo plastic combined into a solvent base (in this case water).  I am mostly acquainted with the oil based version so I am not sure of the base chemicals it is reacted with to create the liquid coating using water as the solvent.

Lacquer is nitrocellulose based (cotton or wood fiber) and then dissolved in a solvent as well.  Usually an alkyl resin is added to enhance its properties such as non-yellowing or durability. Considering nitrocellulose is also gunpowder, this coating is very flammable, especially in it's liquid state. 

Both coatings are fairly long chained molecules that provide a very tough coating...kind of like interwoven fibers.  Hope that helps a little bit.


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## Mac In Oak Ridge (Sep 30, 2004)

Wayne,
How long after applying do you have to wait before you can handle the blank and get it off the arbor so you can start on another pen?


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## DCBluesman (Sep 30, 2004)

Bill...not to offend you, but lacquer is not necessarily nitrocellulose-based.  In fact, most lacquer is NOT nitro.  Nitrocellulose lacquer IS highly volatile and I recommend against its use by anyone who does not have an OSHA compliant shop, with excellent air handling and plenty of fire prevention efforts.  As a frustrated former chemist, I refer you to my "Finishes 101" post of a month or so ago.  As for the difference between solvent-based and water-based poly or lacquer, neither are really water-based. They are better described as water-borne.  They ALL have solvents in then, but the water-based or water-borne versions are "green" as they do not contain significant quantities of EPA listed volatile or hazardous materials.  If the EPA has its way, in a few years there will be no solvent-based products.  If you don't believe me, check out some of the new restrictions in California and Canada.  Automakers are already moving 'en masse' to water-borne.  I suspect we will be forced there in the next couple of years.


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## ilikewood (Sep 30, 2004)

Actually I am a "frustrated current chemist"[]  I worked several years in the cellulose industry in acetylations and soluble cellulose forms.  I am currently working in research on projects related to hydrolyzing cellulose for biomass recovery.

As far as lacquer goes, most current literature (merck, condensed, CRC, etc) still list nitro as the main component of lacquer.  Considering I have been out that field for 13 years now, I am sure they modified the ingredients to a more friendly mixture.  Thank you for your corrections.

I just found a neat little article from the Professional Finishers Magazine.  I think everyone in the group should take a look!
http://www.alan.net/prgfeat/rrlacquer.pdf

This article describes the Cellulose Acetate Butyrate lacquer.


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## DCBluesman (Sep 30, 2004)

Thanks for the link to that article.  It's highly informative...a must read for those of you addicted to trying various finishes!


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## C_Ludwigsen (Sep 30, 2004)

WOW, That is a very cool article, DC.  Much appreciate it.


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## ryannmphs (Sep 30, 2004)

Thanks for the article, great info. 

Looks like I will be ordering some Enduro (prolly the starter kit).

Thanks for the input.

Ryan


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## wayneis (Sep 30, 2004)

Mac I try to wait for ten or fifteen minutes and then I just try to be kind of gentle.  Then like I said earlier that I also try to wait overnight before I MM it and give it the final polishing with either the Meguires or whatever plastic polish I have handy.  Lately my coats are getting much smoother so I use the Hut Ultra Gloss, its doesn't seem quite as abrasive as the Meguires.  As far as the MM goes, where I start also depends on how smooth it is.  If its comes out like it has lately then I start at 3200 and go to 12000 and then go for the Hut or Meguires.  I have been experimenting for a while and have just recently started to drip on the slow turning blank while I hold a folded up Viva paper towell under it.  I use a thin coat for the first then the second I put it on pretty thick.  I have been stopping after the second.  I have tried a whole boat load of different ways and am very happy with my latest method.  Don't worry if it looks like you have a couple of little air bubbles as they seem to be gone by the time I MM.  Right after each coat of both the sanding sealer and the poly I turn off the lathe and turn it slowly by hand just for a couple of minutes to let it settle and even out.

Wayne


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## ryannmphs (Oct 1, 2004)

Well, as I mentioned in another thread, I have finished my first 2 pens (black walnut and an unknown).  I just wanted to give a brief report on what happened with the finish.  For the more experienced this may be nothing new, but for the novice woodworker it's just more knowledge.

1st Pen: Black walnut:  I used wipe-on ploy (don't know the exact brand, but it was purchased from the HD).  Ugh, shoulda used some sanding sealer first.  This wood just absorbed the poly and never really got a good finish.

2nd Pen: Unknown, but slightly spalted: Again I used the wipe-on poly.  This wood took the finish nicely, nice and even distribution. After 3 coats, sanding between each coat and after the 3rd, I applied paste wax.  I really liked the way this finish turned out.

My conclusion (please correct me if I am wrong here) always use sanding sealer.

Thanks for all the info in this thread.  I hope to be posting more pens next week.

Ryan


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## C_Ludwigsen (Oct 2, 2004)

Anyone else had trouble with Poly on woods like Walnut?


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## DCBluesman (Oct 2, 2004)

A quick tip on walnut.  It's another oily wood.  Hit it with some rubbing alcohol, then seal with sanding sealer.  After that you should be home free.


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