# Kitless Pen Thread Pitch



## WineWorkerAdamC

I'm going to start my first kitless or semi-kitless pen this weekend, and was wondering what thread pitch a few items were.  I saw on another thread that the El Grande nib is 10x1.  If anyone can confirm this, that would be great.

The other thing I'd like some confirmation on is the fountain and rollerball nib for a Woodcraft Navigator pen.  I tried putting it into my tap/die set, and think it's a little smaller than 3/8x24.  Before I go turning a blank and threading it, though, I'd like to know exactly so I don't mess everything up completely and waste my time.  

Is it possible to use a drill chuck rather than a collet chuck?  I saw this post earlier, and was wondering if a drill chuck would be a suitable replacement (http://www.penturners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=51646).  I have a drill chuck already, and the collet chuck is out of my price range right now.  I also have the Arizona Silhouette closed end pen mandrels for the Navigator/Sedona and El Grande pens If that information helps.

Thanks and cheers,

Adam


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## BRobbins629

Confirm that the EL Grande nib is 10 x 1.  Virtually all the cap threads on the kit pens are multi-start, so off the shelf taps and dies to replicate them are quite expensive.  There have been a few groups buys, but the sets of 1 tap and 1 die are still about $200 in quantity.  Many choose to start with single start and if you are doing both internal and external cap threads, it really doesn't matter if they match the kit, only that they fit one another.  12mm or 1/2 inch taps will work with a pen using the ElGrande nibs (which BTW can be purchased separately).

A drill chuck can work in the short term, but I would save up for the collet.  The drill chucks are not designed for stressing in that direction and you will soon find your pens off center due to wear.


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## soligen

I did my first kitless last month.  For the nib section, the M10x1 to match the el-grande is what I used - seems a good choice.  I choose to use the single start stadard threads for the cap.  I used 1/2" 20 TPI.  Works fine, but a M12x1 I think would be a better choice in a standard inexpensive tap/die.  The 1/2 x 20 TPI is a bit course, and the diameter is a little big for the readily available tubes.  The M12 is a bit smaller and should enable use of a smaller tube size, giving a bit more flexibility in design.

BTW, for comparison, the TPI on the M12x1 is about 25.  For visual comparison in your set, it will be the same TPI as the M10x1.  Based on past threads, the M10x.75 could be an option, but I haven't considered it becasue the local suppliers dont have it stock

Disclaimer:  I have not used the M12x1 -its just where I'm thinkng of going becasue teh tap/die is reasonable priced at a local supplier.  IF someone more experienced can chime in, it would be great.


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## mredburn

I use the 12x.75 for the cap threads I make. Both the tap and die are available from victor machinery. they also carry 10mm in different pitches both taps and dies and they run about 10.00 each +/-.
http://www.victornet.com/
Mike

Let me add that I started with 12x1 but the thread depth meant the material had to be thicker. I found the .75 was a comfortable range without having too many twists of the .5 pitch threads.  Also a .75 works just fine with 2 threads for posting the cap.


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## Texatdurango

soligen said:


> I did my first kitless last month. For the nib section, the M10x1 to match the el-grande is what I used - seems a good choice. I choose to use the single start stadard threads for the cap. I used 1/2" 20 TPI. Works fine, but a M12x1 I think would be a better choice in a standard inexpensive tap/die. The 1/2 x 20 TPI is a bit course, and the diameter is a little big for the readily available tubes. The M12 is a bit smaller *and should enable use of a smaller tube size,* giving a bit more flexibility in design.
> 
> BTW, for comparison, the TPI on the M12x1 is about 25. For visual comparison in your set, it will be the same TPI as the M10x1. Based on past threads, the M10x.75 could be an option, but I haven't considered it becasue the local suppliers dont have it stock
> 
> Disclaimer: I have not used the M12x1 -its just where I'm thinkng of going becasue teh tap/die is reasonable priced at a local supplier. IF someone more experienced can chime in, it would be great.


 
I think you will find that when you stop relying on kits to make a pen, the need for brass tubes will go away.  I see the brass tube as nothing more than a piece to attach the metal pieces to.  Once you stop using the metal pieces, the need for tubes pretty much goes away.

I wouldn't let tube size compatability be a consideration when designing a pen and deciding on which thread sizes to select.

Start thinking true kitless and your design possibilities soar!


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## soligen

George, that is where I started - using your tutorial thread from some time ago, but I was using PR (self cast), after several threading failures, I made a metal coupler and I decided the PR would not be strong enough on its own.  Maybe I was just being over cautious.  Either way, I think the 1/2 X 20 was ok for learning,but there are better options moving forward.  

I agree the tubes limited my design,  With a 1/2 tap, I had to go with a KS engineering 9/16 tube, which made the cap a little thicker than I would have perferred.


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## soligen

mredburn said:


> Also a .75 works just fine with 2 threads for posting the cap.


 
I assume you mean 2 rotations to post. Is 2 rotations also enough for capping? (I dont know why it would be different).

I'm happy with a 2 rotation cap, but I dont really want to go higher than that.


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## skiprat

soligen said:


> I'm happy with a 2 rotation cap, but I dont really want to go higher than that.


 
There is *always* another route. How about only a quarter turn, either direction to 'screw' on a cap?

If people really want to go kitless, then why not go 'unique' at the same time?  If threads are a pain, then leave them off:biggrin:

Here is a spring loaded bayonet type cap. 

The other thing that has my interest at the moment is that good modern rollerball refills don't dry out any more so caps are not needed unless for fountain pens, and there are even capless fp's out there too:biggrin:

Why spend a ton of money and loads of effort to copy a kit pen design?:biggrin:


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## soligen

HAHA Skip - baby steps - I'll get there!!


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## skiprat

soligen said:


> HAHA Skip - baby steps - I'll get there!!


 

Dennis, I have absolutely no doubt that you will indeed get there, and in style too........just don't waste your time re-inventing the wheel along your journey:biggrin:


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## workinforwood

Yes, kitless rollerballs..no caps necessary.  I have a really cool rare vintage one in my shop that I'd like to duplicate with my own flare when I get a bit more tooling..and it doesn't use a tranny either..until then, well I'm not telling about it's unique design...yea, I like to tease! :biggrin:

If you ever have the chance to go to a pen show..do it.  It's a great place to examine all kinds of ideas past and present to adapt into your own repertoire. There's thousands of ways to make a pen.


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## witz1976

workinforwood said:


> Yes, kitless rollerballs..no caps necessary.  I have a really cool rare vintage one in my shop that I'd like to duplicate with my own flare when I get a bit more tooling..and it doesn't use a tranny either..until then, well I'm not telling about it's unique design...yea, I like to tease! :biggrin:
> 
> If you ever have the chance to go to a pen show..do it.  It's a great place to examine all kinds of ideas past and present to adapt into your own repertoire. There's thousands of ways to make a pen.



No kidding, just visit Skiprat's site:biggrin::biggrin:


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