# Unsafe



## 08K.80 (Mar 1, 2014)

I considered entering the casting contests after several members contacted me about doing so. However, I realized I was not eligible to enter based on the rules. The specific rule I'm referring to is the one requiring the member to have their full name and location listed in their profile. I choose not to post this information publicly after I've seen on the news and other media along with friends and family saying that is very unsafe. 

Naturally you will say..... only the members of IAP can see this information.
This may be true, but what is the screening process of becoming a member? There are those people out there that would, could, and probably do sign up to gather information for unethical intentions. What guarantee do I, as a member, have that every member is a honest and good hearted individual that would never use my information for ill-will towards me or someone else? Who is responsible of insuring my safety? I do not want some delusional criminal showing up at my home, work, or calling because I wanted to join the fun of a contest.

I don't spend much time here lately, but I just happened to read the post about "owning up" and this is an example of what my post is speaking of.
It's true that the member didn't use another persons information, but they still had unethical intentions. This is even after being a member since 2008 and having the trust of you. This is proof that you do not know the person or people on the other end of your keyboard or what their intentions may be. 

If this rule was removed from the contests, I would have participated and had I won.... the board member that was responsible for getting my prize to me, would have received that information through an email or other private connection. Otherwise, how would I receive the prize?

I guess I just don't understand, in the world today, how people can be so trusting in humanity and still give the benefit of the doubt. I know there are good people out there and there are many here, but I still prefer to be on the cautious side.

Sorry for the rant, but I wanted to voice my position after reading the above mentioned post.


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## Pete275 (Mar 1, 2014)

Seems to me there isn't anything unsafe about putting a name and city on this site. Shoot they may even allow you to just list first name and city. Think about that, your work is worthy of several of the bash contests and should be there.

Wayne


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## Ambidex (Mar 1, 2014)

I, for one, still have faith overall in humanity and think the vast majority of people are good willed and well intentioned. That may make me seem naïve and/or too trusting, but I can live with that. I'm well over fifty and have lived in a smaller rural community all my life but have been around the world a few times. I tend to give the benefit of the doubt to people and have a very good memory for people that have burned me in the past. Like the saying goes, fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. The other benefit to living in an area like this is like the song says.."that door right there has never been locked and I guarantee it never will". Now I respect your stance as I don't know you or anything you've been through. The other thing is I've seen some of your creations and they were, in a word, incredible! I really miss your posts and was sorry to see you say you were getting out of turning.


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## buttonsHT (Mar 1, 2014)

Irrational paranoia


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## eranox (Mar 1, 2014)

I happen to agree that the "real identity" rule is probably unnecessary.  Although I choose to share this information for purposes of meeting turners local to me, I can understand that disclosing personal information of any kind can be risky.  At the least, I don't know why disclosure is required to enter contests--although I can understand disclosure in certain cases, such as hosting a group buy.  I'm not sure if it is feasible, but including an option to keep personal info hidden from all except moderators could help mitigate the risk.


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## 08K.80 (Mar 1, 2014)

I won't mention names, but I have illustrated my point.

The internet is a powerful tool and also a dangerous one. It just depends on the individual as to how they choose to use it.


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## Twist-Ed (Mar 1, 2014)

Just because your paranoid
Doesn't mean they are still not out to get you


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## walshjp17 (Mar 1, 2014)

While I added my full name and location, I fully understand Kelly's unwillingness to do so.  

Having spent over 20 years in the cyber security world, I know how easy it is to develop a profile of personal info from a tidbits here and there on the Internet.  A photo and name on Facebook + a location from a Tweet + a name and location on IAP + Mom's maiden name on a G+ post and suddenly you are pwned!


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## Buzzzz4 (Mar 1, 2014)

Both in September and January you were moving on, then you were making blanks and polling for interest in them. Now you are ranting about not trusting people. Either you like this place and want to participate or you don't. Time to make up your mind. 

There is information on the internet about most of us. If someone really wants my information, they are going to get it whether I want them to or not.


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## eranox (Mar 1, 2014)

I'll come out and say it.  After my initial post, it took one member less than 5 minutes to PM me with my home address and phone number.  That scared the heck out of me.  The user did this with no malicious intent, but presumably any person could do the same to any one of us, just by signing up for an account.

I'm not saying the sky is falling.  I have no reason to think that any person with criminal intent would think that I have anything of exceptional value, but this is still of significant concern to me, as I imagine it is to many of you.  I want to participate in events and group buys, but for now, I'll be taking my personal information down.


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## Dan Masshardt (Mar 1, 2014)

My opinion : my address is public info, not private info.  

I don't know what the iap ask for but you could probably give your area and not even exact town. 

Ie south central pa or Chicago area. 

Regarding the internet - if total privacy is ones goal, you should stay off the net completely.  


These are just MY opinions.   

I can see why others disagree.


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## plantman (Mar 1, 2014)

I watched a program a couple of weeks ago. They had on a super hacker who  had goten into the goverment files as well as Mrs, Obama's  personal accounts and emails. The goverment was so impresed with his knowledge they suspended all charges and hired him to work for them. The host asked him if anyone was safe against identity theft. His answer was no. To prove his point the show randomly picked 5 people out of the audience to take part in a demonstration. He could only ask them questions that the answers could be found in a phone book or on a mailing address. By the end of the show, less than an hour, He had all there social security numbers, licence numbers, Federal and State tax numbers, bank account numbers, all  their historys, and even had arranged loans and withdrawels from their personal bank accounts and investment accounts. He had all user names, id's, and passwords. You are never 100% safe even if you don't go on the internet at all. If your worried about people with unethical intentions, look into becoming a doomsdayer. Don't go outside, turn your home into a fortress, arm yourself to the teeth, stock up on ammo, food and water, and trust no one. The choise of what and how you choose to share you personal information is yours alone, but keep in mind that someone out there knows more about you than you do about yourself, and anyone out there with the correct knowledge can find it if they want to without you supplying it or even knowing about it.  Jim  S


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## Joe S. (Mar 1, 2014)

If someone actually is trying to piece  together information from your IAP account, you have MUCH bigger problems to worry about.


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## Ed McDonnell (Mar 1, 2014)

eranox said:


> I'll come out and say it.  After my initial post, it took one member less than 5 minutes to PM me with my home address and phone number.  That scared the heck out of me.  The user did this with no malicious intent, but presumably any person could do the same to any one of us, just by signing up for an account.
> 
> I'm not saying the sky is falling.  I have no reason to think that any person with criminal intent would think that I have anything of exceptional value, but this is still of significant concern to me, as I imagine it is to many of you.  I want to participate in events and group buys, but for now, I'll be taking my personal information down.



I guess I just don't see the issue with people having access to information that they could get out of a phone book.  But if it bothers you, then don't provide the info.  If that means you can't participate in certain things then that's a choice you have to make.

Ed


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## NittanyLion (Mar 2, 2014)

I do believe everyone has the right to protect their identity and live a sheltered life, but if you are on this site, I personally wouldn't buy any blanks, kits, etc from a "private" member.   When these private members come on here and market their pens and products, it should cause folks to reconsider why they choose to not reveal their identity.  Too many people hide behind a keyboard....proof after the bash mug incident. If you are not happy with the rules, sorry....they are there to protect the other 99%.


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## eranox (Mar 2, 2014)

I see your point, and I'm probably overreacting.  I'm curious about your opinions on the info disclosure rule.  I myself am undecided, being that I can see the benefit in certain situations, such as a group buy participant forgetting to add his IAP handle to a PayPal payment or such.


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## Displaced Canadian (Mar 2, 2014)

I had a friend who lived in a commune in Alaska. Someone moved there from Georgia. They just packed up and left without telling anyone specifically where he was going. When he crossed the border at Beaver Creek he tried to be vague with customs about where he was going. The customs official said, "You're going up to join that group of hippies up by Dry Creek aren't you?" And he admitted he was. About 2 months after he got there he received his first piece of mail. It was addressed to general delivery, Dry Creek. It was his phone bill from his previous address. That happened in the 1970's


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## jeff (Mar 2, 2014)

I don't know that the number of people uncomfortable with providing their information would make it worth the investment of time and money required to provide additional security. Maybe we'll run a poll to see how many people are really concerned about this.

If you feel that winning a contest or saving a few pennies in a group buy or being able to use the classifieds puts you at risk because you have to provide your name and location, then by all means please don't provide it!

You know, the reason we started asking for name and location was just to give everyone a small warm feeling that we're dealing with people who have nothing to hide about their reputation. Is it foolproof? Of course not, but getting rid of some anonymity when money and merchandise was changing hands seemed to be a reasonable thing to do.


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## Band Saw Box (Mar 2, 2014)

I'm sure most of us have give out our address, phone number to people we don't know and never give it a thought. We have phone, cable, insurance and so on those people should be trustworthy but we really don't know that someone may use that information for their own gain, Some may have had yard/garage sales or put ad's in our local papers and give out our location. We try to be careful with our personal information but there is always someone out there that can get it if they want. Just because one member did something wrong it does not mean we need to think this site is now unsafe and special security software. Let's put what has happened behind us and stop looking over our shoulder with every post we make.


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## 08K.80 (Mar 2, 2014)

Buzzzz4 said:


> Both in September and January you were moving on, then you were making blanks and polling for interest in them. Now you are ranting about not trusting people. Either you like this place and want to participate or you don't. Time to make up your mind.


 
For your information and ALL of those that liked your little condescending post...

I was going to quit making pens and was then convinced by some of the members HERE, to try to stick with it, so I did. The second time I did quit. Have you seen a pen made by myself? And the post about the blanks was just to use up my remaining resin, which I did and the blanks WERE sold.
Have you seen me selling ANY other blanks?
You get on the bash committee and take it literal, like you are elite.


Just because I stated I wasn't making pens any longer, didn't mean I wouldn't come back (sorry to break you and your likers feelings), I do enjoy looking at the creations that others make.


BUT, apparently I'm not wanted around here, so I guess I will leave just to make you and your likers happy.


I made a post to raise awareness. Yes, a lot of information is public domain and is readily available, but why give a malicious person a jump start? I also know IF someone wanted to gain access to my information, they could, but I won't help them gain it. You people are very naïve! You are unaware of the world around you as it is today. As the above post states... these people don't just stop at your address and you are willing to help them on their path. You post on here about your personal life, family, friends, medical problems, religious beliefs, and the equipment you have in your shop/garage. You share pictures of you, family, your shop because you feel you are safe. I didn't say that anyone is out to get you or are even interested in you. But, all of this gives the criminal an upper hand. What do you do if they show up at your home?

How many people claim they have had their Paypal accounts, bank accounts, and even email hacked? Do you think it's just a coincidence? Do you think it stopped with just that?


If purchasing a product from someone, I choose ONLY those that have a long standing and good reputation. That is why I choose the places with an actual website and not individuals. Yes, their data base could be hacked (and several companies have had it happen....see Target and now it's costing them millions), but is much less likely than with an individual with that specific intention.

You can continue to degrade myself and my post, I won't be back to read it. You are WELCOME. However, I will continue to be diligent in the safety of my family and I hope none of you discover first hand, the purpose of my post.
AND, NO I do not live a sheltered life, but yes I do look over my shoulder. I am conscious of my surroundings at all times. I realize the world we live in.

Be well and safe!


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## Buzzzz4 (Mar 2, 2014)

You probably won't see this, but I am sorry for the way I came across. I never want to come across as elitist. Being part of the bash team is something anyone can do. There is no prestige to that.

The reason I spoke up is because it looked to me like you are seeking attention. One month you say you are leaving and then you post blanks indicating you are selling them, but not really cause they aren't in the classifieds. Then you say that there must not be any interest in them. Then people feel sorry and speak up about them. And you say they would just be too expensive.
Now you say you would participate in a contest but won't because of safety reasons indicating you are back to pen turning. 

My rant was about your inconsistent behavior which appeared to be attention seeking. I really don't know what else you could be looking for with those kinds of posts.


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## Janster (Mar 2, 2014)

*08K.80*

....I somewhat agree with your thoughts but this is the world we all live in today! What I admire even more than your craftsmanship is your "Gumption to stand your grounds". I for one one will miss your postings.
Be well........Jan


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## Jim Burr (Mar 2, 2014)

I've had about all the negative crap I need awhile. Shall we lock this thread?


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## low_48 (Mar 2, 2014)

Ease up there Mr.08K.80. We've had people leave their swan song post on here many times, MANY TIMES. But when you do it twice, it puts you in a new class. This is a forum about penturning, get it? Buck up there cowboy, a lot of us were thinking the same thing as Eric!


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## jeff (Mar 2, 2014)

I think this discussion has run its course. 08K.80 has asked that her account be deactivated, which I did, so he won't be back to comment.


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## edstreet (Mar 2, 2014)

08K.80 said:


> I considered entering the casting contests after several members contacted me about doing so. However, I realized I was not eligible to enter based on the rules. The specific rule I'm referring to is the one requiring the member to have their full name and location listed in their profile. I choose not to post this information publicly after I've seen on the news and other media along with friends and family saying that is very unsafe.
> 
> Naturally you will say..... only the members of IAP can see this information.
> This may be true, but what is the screening process of becoming a member? There are those people out there that would, could, and probably do sign up to gather information for unethical intentions. What guarantee do I, as a member, have that every member is a honest and good hearted individual that would never use my information for ill-will towards me or someone else? Who is responsible of insuring my safety? I do not want some delusional criminal showing up at my home, work, or calling because I wanted to join the fun of a contest.
> ...



(I do realize this person's account is not able to reply but this reply not only addresses the original poster but all IAP members.)

Perhaps I can shed some light on things for a minute or two.

One of the things mentioned is something I have wondered about but never brought up, that is with the location.  In the profile we have not one but *TWO* entries that shows location.  That is "location" and "zip code".  'location' is public so any person on the open net can see that information, yet however 'zip code' is private and only a few can see that listing.  I have wondered if 'zip code' would be just as viable for things like this.



> "Who is responsible of insuring my safety?


The answer to this is crystal clear and very distinct.  *YOU  ARE ! ! !*  But please do not take my word for it, go look up and READ the us supreme court case Gonzalez VS Castle Rock, it is a landmark case and it covers this very issue.

Online privacy and security should be a concern for everyone.  With viable details being leaked every day all over the place I think that the bulk of people have became numb to the fact.  Even still I have to point out that by using the 3 model system (i.e. white hats, grey hats and black hats) and the open model systems teaches us that when you find concerns, potential areas or even specific areas you have a sacred duty to report them.  The concern that I have here is this sat quietly unreported while some arrangements could have been made had just one PM been sent out or one post made.


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## Ambidex (Mar 2, 2014)

jeff said:


> I think this discussion has run its course. 08K.80 has asked that her account be deactivated, which I did, so he won't be back to comment.


 
+1..love the multi-sexual coverage also:wink:


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