# Props to CSUSA



## Firefyter-emt (Oct 29, 2007)

OK, I tend to be a bit of a critic, but I just have to chime in here.  Tonight while putting a fresh coat of Ren wax on my favorite pen, I noticed just how far gone the pitting really was on the rhoidum plating.  This pen is at least a year old and used a lot, but still well kept. It's either carried in my pocket or kept in my stroage case when not in use.

Edit to my original post:  

After thinking a bit more, I just want to say that CSUSA was great when I called them and took care of the issue without hassle.  The more I thought about my full message made me wonder if the info could be abused so I decided to edit my post.


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## Brewmeister35 (Oct 29, 2007)

Have to agree with you on their service.  CSUSA has done some pretty awesome things for me and I don't like to repeat it so it doesn't get abused.  They are great people with a great customer service department.  []


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## redfishsc (Oct 30, 2007)

My experience is the same with their service, but there is one HUGE ELEPHANT in the room that needs to be slayed. 


STOP SELLING RHODIUM AND TIGOLD KITS THAT PIT! 

I do NOT consider it good consumer relations to always replace a defective product with a cheerful smile, and then SELL ME 10 MORE THAT I WILL HAVE TO CALL AND COMPLAIN ABOUT. 


I am using a tigold Jr GentII that is beginning to pit. Not as fast as some of the pens I've used from them, but it's pitting--- especially around the nib coupler area.

I do not want a single customer to have to call me and ask why his pen is pitting....prompting a phone call to CSA and a new kit in the mail...which I have to remake spending another hour or three...and then have to worry if the new kit is going to pit. 


Rant? You better believe it! I refuse to buy, make, and sell a product I cannot trust.


I would like to see a CSA Rep get on our forum and ASSURE US that this pitting issue is OVER AND DONE WITH. I am purposely holding back on my orders from CSA as much as I possibly can until I hear otherwise.


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## ed4copies (Oct 30, 2007)

CSUSA and all the other "manufacturers" can only assure YOU they are doing THEIR best.  They DON'T MAKE this stuff.  The supplier tells THEM that all is well and they have no testing facilities to confirm.

We deal with BIG WHOLESALERS!!!  THEY BUY, import, sell to us and make profit. Nothing wrong with that, but understand THEIR limitations.


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## louisbry (Oct 30, 2007)

My experience with CSUSA has always been the same.    Gee I thought it was safe to go back into the water.  I guit buying 24k and buy 10k only when I have to for a particular kit but now I find out the the rhoidum and TL plating pit after a while.  Has anyone had this problem with the other suppliers?


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## Texatdurango (Oct 30, 2007)

> _Originally posted by redfishsc_
> <br />...I am using a tigold Jr GentII that is beginning to pit. Not as fast as some of the pens I've used from them, but it's pitting--- especially around the nib coupler area.....
> 
> I would like to see a CSA Rep get on our forum and ASSURE US that this pitting issue is OVER AND DONE WITH. I am purposely holding back on my orders from CSA as much as I possibly can until I hear otherwise....


You have a camera don't you, why not take a few shots of the pen you are talking about?  They say a photo is worth a thousand words so let's see the pen!

Seven months ago I was having a problem with a Sierra who's plating was wearing off but since then I have turned almost exclusivly Jr Gents and Jr Statesmen pens with Rhodium and Black or Gold titanium finishes and haven't noticed a thing.  I use two or three of them everyday.

And thank you for holding back on your orders... that way I won't face any back orders when I place my orders! []


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## ericatcraft (Oct 30, 2007)

Hey everyone,

After reading this post I am concerned about the pitting issue that has been brought up.  First of all: if any of you have a pen in rhodium or a titanium finish that is pitting please call our customer service department (1-800-551-8876) and they will replace it for free, no questions asked.  

I assure you that this concerns us greatly and we will look into it right away.

It would really help if I could see a pen that has these pitting issues, if anyone can post a picture of a pen with pitting I would appreciate it .  Also, if would be extremely helpful if I could get a pen from someone so that I can send it to our platers and show them what the problem is.  I will of course replace it as we would any pen that has plating issues.


If anyone has a pen that has pitting issues that they are willing to give up please contact me through this forum or at edorman@woodturnerscatalog.com


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## rherrell (Oct 30, 2007)

There you go! Anybody have one? Let's get this show on the road!!!


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## redbulldog (Oct 30, 2007)

Now the ball is not in Craft Supplies court!!


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## drayman (Oct 30, 2007)

eric, this also worries us in the united kingdom. although i have not had the pitting issues.regards colin.


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## workinforwood (Oct 30, 2007)

I know it's a bit off topic, but how about them junk click pens and on top of that, the fact that they come in one color only, a cheap gold plating.  Just in case that is an actual CSUSA person, I'd like that to be addressed too.  I don't know about other people what they do with the pen when it is assembled but won't funcion.  I sent the kit and the blank, the whole deal back to you.  I'm hoping you replace my beauty of a blank btw.  I tryed every alteration/modification to get that kit to work, including dissassembly of the pen about 5 times and trying to install another kit, then tried lengthening the blank, then shortening the blank.  So much wasted time and it still malfuncions.  Lets stop with the crummy design that is the same design all other companies are selling to, and lets redesign a click that works and comes in at least chrome if not something better.  That gold doesn't make it a week in my pocket being a trucker and having my pen pass through every customers hands to sign their bills.

Haven't had a pitting problem on other pens, lets hope it's a rare case of bad batch of metal under the plating.

I still use CSUSA, the service is great, but I boycott their click pens like the black plague.


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## Texatdurango (Oct 30, 2007)

> _Originally posted by workinforwood_
> <br />I know it's a bit off topic, but how about them junk click pens and on top of that, the fact that they come in one color only, a cheap gold plating.  Just in case that is an actual CSUSA person, I'd like that to be addressed too.



workinforwood, 

A <b>_bit off topic_</b>, no, actually I think it's a LOT off topic!  If you have a gripe, why not start your own thread or contact the company in question yourself and vent away to your hearts content?

Personally, I think it's sad that somoeone can't post something nice about a vendor on this forum anymore without a few having to jump in, hijack the thread and turn it into their own bully pulpits! 

And just FYI, Eric is an employee of Craft Supply as he states in his posts, so if you _"want something addressed"_, why not ask him a question directly or better yet, start your own thread! 

Geeze, some people!


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## workinforwood (Oct 30, 2007)

Sorry I happen to dissagree that it is not way off topic, just a little bit, as it relates to quality issues not dissimilar to your pitting issues, just on a different one of their pens.  And as I stated as well, I do like CSUSA and have great results from their service.  Some of their pens are so awesome and their own exclusives, which is so great to see, that it's difficult to understand when they have poor quality at the same time.  I understand the obvious poor quality slims that are purposely meant to be that way in order to offer them at the cheapest possible price, like a practice pen, but I don't understand a more expensive pen like a click being poor quality.  More expensive, relative to what a cheapo pen is.  And I've spoke with them in person calling them out on it.  If he's following this thread, can't hurt to add to the list of what is great and what is not.  The more CSUSA people that hear about the issues, the better the chances of the problems being solved, and I believe this is the type of company that does want to fix their downsides.  I can't say that about some of the other big supply houses.


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## Rmartin (Oct 30, 2007)

All platings will wear. Period!

The best of the best will not last under the conditions pens are put through.

Rmartin


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## redfishsc (Oct 30, 2007)

Eric--- photos here per your request. 

This pen actually is a Black Ti Jr Gent II in trustone. 

The Black Ti is virtually spotless and pristine. Whatever metal the cap is plated with, however, is deplorable. It looks like maybe rhodium or chrome? I dunno. But you can plainly see what pits I am talking about. As they begin to form, they are barely noticeable and only seen if the lights catch the surface at an "angle of incidence", but as the pitting gets worse, the mess gets uglier. This pen is about 6 months old.


When I took the pic, I had already sent off the worst pen--- a Rhodium Jr Gent II-- to Rex, so I wasn't able to get a pic. I decided to keep this pen since I used it personally and am kinda attached to it[].

Personally I think that what these pens cost ME and my customers should assure us that this isn't going to happen.


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## redfishsc (Oct 30, 2007)

> _Originally posted by rherrell_
> <br />There you go! Anybody have one? Let's get this show on the road!!!




This show has been on the road for a LONG time, just mostly between me and CSA. 

Close to a year ago I called about the first Ti Gold Gent I ever made, and it pitted (come to think of it, I still have it--- need to get pics)....

The tech rep said that they had been having some problems with it, he seemed to know exactly what I was talking about, and they replaced it no questions asked. Great service. 

Then I start getting it on all sorts of pens. I sent CSA two rather ugly pitted pens (an Americana FP and Jr Gent II RB, both rhodium). They have only had them a couple of months, I don't think they have had time to properly diagnose the problem. 

Really all I am asking them to do is find the problem, fix it, and tell me when it's OK for me to buy their stuff again so I won't have to waste time making more pens just to send them back.


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## Firefyter-emt (Oct 30, 2007)

Eric, this is the pen in question. The photo was not taken to show the pitting, but it really showed up on the post end. The worst places was the post end and the nib holder. I have a fine pitting on the clip, the rest of the parts appear pretty good. The post end, clip and nib have the feeling like paint overspray and if you scrap along the clip with your fingernail you can hear it.

Strangly the black ti centerband is flawless, which was my main worry.


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## redfishsc (Oct 30, 2007)

> _Originally posted by Firefyter-emt_
> <br /> The post end, clip and nib have the feeling like paint overspray and if you scrap along the clip with your fingernail you can hear it.



That is the perfect description of the problem. I am a bit embarrassed since I am a professional cabinet finisher that I didn't pick up on the similarity. But the problem does look a lot like overspray from something, but upon close examination, the pits are concave, well, like a pit.


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## Firefyter-emt (Oct 30, 2007)

Well, if it makes you feel better, I was a professional auto painter for a long time before I went into the insurance industry.


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## redfishsc (Oct 31, 2007)

Here is a pic of the Tigold Gent rollerball. The nib on this one is the main problem but there is also pitting elsewhere. CSA did replace this pen for me, nearly a year ago.


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## ericatcraft (Oct 31, 2007)

Thanks for the photos, they will definitely come in handy.  I will make sure that the manufacturer sees these photos and that they look into the problem.
Also, please call our customer service if you haven't already and get the pens replaced for free, I can't guarantee that the new ones won't have the same problem but as we have not heard from very many people about this I don't think the problem is widespread.
I will try to let you know as soon as I get any answers.  If you have any more photos please post them as well, the more the better.

Thanks to you all for your patience.


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## IPD_Mrs (Oct 31, 2007)

We have some plating done locally on the restoration hardware we sell.  We do rack and barrel plating in mostly nickel.  We have some items that have been on a display board for 20 years and the plating is not pitting just tarnishing with time and sunlight.  Nickel is a pretty durable alloy and is also available in a dark almost polished gun metal look.  That might be an option, although it does not sound as expensice as rhodium.  The other coment that I must make is that as this is not a widespread problem, I would have to say that a majority of it is most likely human chemical related.  Everyone's hands have natural oils and varing degrees of Ph and acids.  This may play a large role in the pitting when you get just the right combination of Ph, acid and oils which would explain why is is not a common occurance.

Just my 2 cents so take it for what it is worth.

Mike


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## workinforwood (Oct 31, 2007)

It's ugly, but the finish on the wood is spectacular.  I sure hope you can get the pen disassembled and save that beauty.


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## Firefyter-emt (Oct 31, 2007)

Jeff, are you talking about mine??  If so, thanks..  That's straight CA after about a year. It does have a crack in the wood where I took the body end off. It was originaly made with a thread post from a Jr. Gent, but to be honest, I did not like the look and I replaced it with the fancy post end from the kit. However I put a minor crack in the wood that did not really show, but I will not tear it apart for that. I have another Cocobolo blank that I will try to make one just like it because I love the blank that's on the pen. 

The CA was applied straight and wet sanded until I had a perfectly flat finish and it was polished from there.  That finish was done with plastic bags and took me three tried, with Joe's Derlin strips I pretty much finish every kit without a redo every time.  I think it comes from my auto painting days, I want a glass finish like a car when it's done.


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## workinforwood (Oct 31, 2007)

Me too, I go straight CA only.  Most times without fail, sometimes though they get stubborn and takes a few re-do's.  I too love the glass coated look.  I have a pen I use that I made, straight CA, use it every-day and it gets major use and lots of hands on it, but still looks perfect.  I have a pen that was a gift, CA/BLO, looked great at first but over a few months looked very dull to the point that the finish looked almost totally worn away.  I am suspicious that the BLO weakens the CA strength.  Could be another example of more haste makes more waste.  The straight CA takes longer for sure.  Have found that if I get a bad one with slight cloud in it, and I just leave it alone, within a week the cloud will go away too.  I do not know what a Derlin strip is, where you get it or how you use it...appreciate it if you expanded on that, thanx.


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## Firefyter-emt (Oct 31, 2007)

Jeff, here is a link where you can find some info and contact Joe.  These are strips of plastic that are used by placing a bead of CA (I go about 3mm wide and the width of the strip) Then with the lathe on low, you apply the CA back and forth on the blank. You can smooth it out goiing back and forth and even add a bit more CA as you go. I normaly apply 3 coats, dry overnight and then 2 or three more coats the next day if it needs it.

http://www.penturners.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=28079&SearchTerms=derlin


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## Randy_ (Nov 1, 2007)

> _Originally posted by Rmartin_
> <br />All platings will wear. Period.....



Can't argue with that statement at all.




> _Originally posted by Rmartin_.....The best of the best will not last under the conditions pens are put through.



On the other hand, the fact that the companies are willing to offer lifetime warranties on certain platings is, to me, an implicit statement on their part that their pens "WILL" last.  When the pens don't live up to their implied quality, that is a serious issue.  My customers depend upon me so I can't have suppliers I cannot depend upon.

I don't know how big CSUSA is nor how many pens they sell nor what kind of a QC budget they can support.  Despite what Ed said in an earlier post, I would think CSUSA might want to check on their suppliers, rather than trusting them blindly, and take a few pens every month and send them out to a testing lab to be sure they were getting what they were paying for in the way of platings.  To me, it is sort of analogous to the Toys-R-Us lead scare.  seems like they should have been testing their toys to be certain they were fit to sell.  It is hard for me to understand why big companies would want their customers to be their QC department??


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## Ligget (Nov 1, 2007)

What about kits being kept in a cold workshop, maybe the pen components have been put into a metal tin/box .
Would this cause pitting over a period of time?


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## alparent (Nov 1, 2007)

> _Originally posted by Randy__
> It is hard for me to understand why big companies would want their customers to be their QC department?



They are all following Microsoft's example! 
Anybody already installed Vista on their PC's yet?


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## redfishsc (Nov 1, 2007)

> _Originally posted by ligget_
> <br />What about kits being kept in a cold workshop, maybe the pen components have been put into a metal tin/box .
> Would this cause pitting over a period of time?



I doubt temperature would cause plating issues unless your nightly low is Antartica and your daily high is Death Valley. And even there, is only seems to me that the problem would be a difference in the thermal expansion of the two metals (the "brass" or whatever they use vs. the Rhodium). Now, epoxy-coated items might be a different story (like 24K pens) as I could easily see cold temps making the epoxy brittle.

As far as the use of a metal tin box, are you supposing the pens to be taking a beating from the metal? I'd certainly consider that a good way to nark up a pen. Or chemical reaction with the metal box? I would hope not-- most of the pen platings available are fairly chemically stable (with the big exception of silver and copper).


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## Firefyter-emt (Nov 1, 2007)

Just to update, the new kit came in today with a rather odd problem. First off, let me state that again CSUSA is great on this problem and are, much to thier credit, sending a new kit in the mail.  The kit came as a "posting" kit, partly my fault because I did not say it was a non-posting pen, but they didn't ask either. That is not a big deal, in fact the cap is not bad looking, but I don't post my pen.  Second, and my real reason for this update... The centerband was not plated at all??!!  I am sure this is just a slip in the production line and you may never see another, but somewhere someone had to slip the centerband togather with the bare ring, right?? 

Take a peek.  Might want to check your kits just in case.





Oh, and I have not made one of these kits in a while, but I see a redesigned thread coupler (very nice!) I also note that not only did it come with a 2-tone nib [] but it has a Schmidt ink pump! That's a great improvement compared to how it came when I bought it.  The good news is that I can at least make the pen body, that will take a couple of days so when the new kit comes in I should have a nice set of replacement cocobolo tubes ready to go on it.


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## redfishsc (Nov 1, 2007)

> _Originally posted by MLKWoodWorking_
> <br />We have some plating done locally on the restoration hardware we sell.  We do rack and barrel plating in mostly nickel.  We have some items that have been on a display board for 20 years and the plating is not pitting just tarnishing with time and sunlight.  Nickel is a pretty durable alloy and is also available in a dark almost polished gun metal look.  That might be an option, although it does not sound as expensice as rhodium.  The other coment that I must make is that as this is not a widespread problem, I would have to say that a majority of it is most likely human chemical related.  Everyone's hands have natural oils and varing degrees of Ph and acids.  This may play a large role in the pitting when you get just the right combination of Ph, acid and oils which would explain why is is not a common occurance.
> 
> Just my 2 cents so take it for what it is worth.
> ...



Mike, that's an opinion worth quite a bit. I have considered this possiblity a LOT, but I have personally ruled it out as a *likely* culprit for a couple of reasons. 

1) I wear a lot of sterling (mostly a couple rings) and I do not tarnish it any faster than you would expect. Also, I have a Citizen watch that I have worn for many years that only has an "expected" amount of wear. Ie, nothing else metal I use seems to corrode. 

2) I do not have even the least of these problems with -----any------ kit from Berea (the only other supplier I use). Not one pit I have found in their Ti gold or platinum. And I use both. I also use a few satin nickel, black titanium, black chrome, and standard chrome. None of which do I corrode. (yes, btw, I have and use a LOT of my own work....I just can't help myself[]).


So, my conclusion is that _even if_ my "hand acid" is partly to blame, the kits ought to withstand that easily since so many other "lesser" platings withstand it, and that I also think that I am no more "caustic" than the average person.

Now if you will excuse me from the forum, I have a bowl of tabasco sauce with a little chili in it that I need to finish. [8D]


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