# EEE vs MM



## greenchicken (Jan 27, 2012)

I have never used EEE Ultra Shine it but it sounds like an alternative to MM for final sanding.

MM is expensive, I have to clean it often, and occasionally it damages a pen when MM that has embedded itself on the wood.  

opinions please.


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## ctubbs (Jan 27, 2012)

First a question, are you using MM wet or dry?  You mention you are having trouble keeping the MM clean and that it is coming apart and embedding into the wood.
Just a few guesses.  First I never use MM on bare wood, only on the finished wood blank or a freshly sanded acrylic blank that needs no other finish and even then NEVER dry.  My initial set of MM have finished many pens and are still working very well.  Using water to keep the MM wet acts as both a lube for the MM and blank and removes the swarf from the blank.  A light wipe with a clean towel between sizes prevents the swarf from getting on the next smaller grit (alright, I know it is not really grit on MM).  I have not used EEE for some time as once I use the MM all the way through, I then polish with Plastix polish using a clean wool cloth for a buffing pad.  From info I have found somewhere, the grit in EEE is larger than the 12,000 of MM, so it would be going backwards to go to EEE after using the last MM pad.

If you try to go straight from sand paper to your polish, eee or other, you will be polishing for a very long time.  The reason for progressively smaller grits, for lack of a better word, is to remove the scratches of the previous grit size and replace those with smaller scratches.  Even the best and finest polishing compound simply replaces the previous scratches with even smaller ones.  By that theory, one can never achieve a 'perfectly' smooth surface, we just get close enough for all practical purposes.  As always, YMMV.
Charles


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## raar25 (Jan 27, 2012)

I use EEE on everything pretty much these days. The only exception is wood if I am not going to use CA for a final finish.  If I am using shellac or some other friction polish or I have some stubborn small scratches than I use MM dry moving and flipping it alot.  After EEE on everything but wood I use plastic polish.  Lastly you are probably pushing a little hard on the MM and and not moving it around enough.  Be gentle and let the pad do the work.  The guidline I heard recently is if you can feel the object surface through the pad you are pushing too hard.  So flip and tap the pad frequently to keep it cool and unloaded.  MM does get too hot and fail easily.

Hope this helps.


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## Monty (Jan 27, 2012)

raar25 said:


> I use EEE on everything pretty much these days. The only exception is wood if I am not going to use CA for a final finish.  If I am using shellac or some other friction polish or I have some stubborn small scratches than I use MM dry moving and flipping it alot.  After EEE on everything but wood I use plastic polish.  Lastly you are probably pushing a little hard on the MM and and not moving it around enough.  Be gentle and let the pad do the work.  The guidline I heard recently is if you can feel the object surface through the pad you are pushing too hard.  So flip and tap the pad frequently to keep it cool and unloaded.  MM does get too hot and fail easily.
> 
> Hope this helps.


As stated previously, use MM wet.


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## greenchicken (Jan 27, 2012)

Raar25, I only work on wood so I guess EEE is not the answer.  I will give it a try wet tonight.


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## patmurris (Jan 30, 2012)

I had the same thought about using EEE instead of MM and it gives a rather nice glossy finish, but it does not last. 

In fact what you get is a waxed surface and it will dull out rather quickly. After a few month, some pens i finished with EEE over the CA where mate and feeling sort of sticky. I spent quite some time removing the wax rubbing hard with my bare fingers and eventually managed to clean them. The underlying CA is very decent though, so the EEE paste did some work on it, but the wax was an ugly mess after some time.

If you want to drop the MM, then consider using some polishing compounds like Tripoli, then white diamond, then buffing with blue paste. You may also try a plastic polish like HUT or Novus #3 and #2.


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## Smitty37 (Jan 30, 2012)

*Hmmmmm*



patmurris said:


> I had the same thought about using EEE instead of MM and it gives a rather nice glossy finish, but it does not last.
> 
> In fact what you get is a waxed surface and it will dull out rather quickly. After a few month, some pens i finished with EEE over the CA where mate and feeling sort of sticky. I spent quite some time removing the wax rubbing hard with my bare fingers and eventually managed to clean them. The underlying CA is very decent though, so the EEE paste did some work on it, but the wax was an ugly mess after some time.
> 
> If you want to drop the MM, then consider using some polishing compounds like Tripoli, then white diamond, then buffing with blue paste. You may also try a plastic polish like HUT or Novus #3 and #2.


Isn't EEE designed to go before a shelac based wood finish?  At least that is the way PSI recommends using it.


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## greenchicken (Jan 30, 2012)

Smitty,

Yes, EEE as an alternative to MM.  After which you would proceed with friction polish or CA, or whatever you like.


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## ragz (Jan 30, 2012)

If MM is embedding on the blank it sounds like you need to slow down on the lathe as well. Sounds like you are burning the MM onto the blank. Sanding wet will help but think about slowing down a tad as well


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## Ulises Victoria (Feb 1, 2012)

I used CA to finish some wooden pens. I would like to know other people's thoughts on this matter. Why turn a wooden pen and then cover it with CA, which makes it look like plastic? I just finished turning ten pens in Bethlehem Olive Wood. I dry sanded them down to 600 and then used 0000 steel wool. Applied 3-4 coats of BLO and lastly 3-4 coats of Hut friction polish. These look and feel like wood. The ones I did with CA... yes they look bright and shiny but they don't seem to be wood.


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## Smitty37 (Feb 1, 2012)

*I wonder*



Ulises Victoria said:


> I used CA to finish some wooden pens. I would like to know other people's thoughts on this matter. Why turn a wooden pen and then cover it with CA, which makes it look like plastic? I just finished turning ten pens in Bethlehem Olive Wood. I dry sanded them down to 600 and then used 0000 steel wool. Applied 3-4 coats of BLO and lastly 3-4 coats of Hut friction polish. These look and feel like wood. The ones I did with CA... yes they look bright and shiny but they don't seem to be wood.


 I've wondered about that myself.  I have some really nice wood barreled pens and I personally like the ones that used a regular wood finish better than the CA finished ones.  I believe it is a fad to use CA because it works very well on the plastics and poly blanks.


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## Carl Fisher (Feb 2, 2012)

I don't mean to encourage the left turn off topic, but just wanted to add that I see benefit both ways.  The CA finish often lends to the wow factor of someone looking for a high end looking pen.  However to those who appreciate craftsmanship and the warmth of wood, the CA detracts from that so it's really a toss up.  I've been making both so I can offer both.

My only concern is the allergy factor for some of the natural finished woods.  Cocobolo, BOW, Rosewoods, etc... that have known allergic reactions for some people.


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## Smitty37 (Feb 2, 2012)

*Hmmm*



Carl Fisher said:


> I don't mean to encourage the left turn off topic, but just wanted to add that I see benefit both ways. The CA finish often lends to the wow factor of someone looking for a high end looking pen. However to those who appreciate craftsmanship and the warmth of wood, the CA detracts from that so it's really a toss up. I've been making both so I can offer both.
> 
> My only concern is the allergy factor for some of the natural finished woods. Cocobolo, BOW, Rosewoods, etc... that have known allergic reactions for some people.


 Ya know Carl, I'd almost wager that if you looked hard enough you'd find some folks allergic to CA too - you can almost everything else, natural or man made.


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## GoatRider (Feb 2, 2012)

Smitty37 said:


> Carl Fisher said:
> 
> 
> > I don't mean to encourage the left turn off topic, but just wanted to add that I see benefit both ways. The CA finish often lends to the wow factor of someone looking for a high end looking pen. However to those who appreciate craftsmanship and the warmth of wood, the CA detracts from that so it's really a toss up. I've been making both so I can offer both.
> ...



There are actually a lot of people allergic to CA. I hear about it a lot on model airplane forums. With our heavy use of CA, I'm surprised I don't hear about it more here.


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## Carl Fisher (Feb 2, 2012)

Good point


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## mhbeauford (Feb 2, 2012)

I use EEE for wood. Sand to 600-1500 then polish with EEE ( except very light woods) then apply Shellawax or CA depending upon the desired finish. I use Shellawax on bottle stoppers and low end pens, some form of CA on high end pens. I use the plastic polishing kit pads for plastic and CA polish using Meguiar's Plastx. Buff with white diamonds if necessary, but rarely so for plastic or CA.

On some woods that are difficult I use mm.


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## Rob73 (Feb 2, 2012)

It really depends what and for whom I'm turning.  If I'm doing a (wood) pen for myself I sand to 400 or 600 - Hit with EEE and then do mulitple coats of Mylands polish.  If I have a 'friend' that wants a 'cheap' pen it will be EEE + Mylands.  If  I want to 'sell' midrange and higher end pens I would use CA simply because the majority of people seem to like that finish.


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## Smitty37 (Feb 2, 2012)

*Question*



Rob73 said:


> It really depends what and for whom I'm turning. If I'm doing a (wood) pen for myself I sand to 400 or 600 - Hit with EEE and then do mulitple coats of Mylands polish. If I have a 'friend' that wants a 'cheap' pen it will be EEE + Mylands. If I want to 'sell' midrange and higher end pens I would use CA simply because the majority of people seem to like that finish.


 
I have not seen it mentioned here but I used EEE for quite awhile and always seemed to me that it changed the color (especially lighter woods) of woods a bit.  Am I wrong?


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## mhbeauford (Feb 2, 2012)

Smitty37 said:


> Rob73 said:
> 
> 
> > It really depends what and for whom I'm turning. If I'm doing a (wood) pen for myself I sand to 400 or 600 - Hit with EEE and then do mulitple coats of Mylands polish. If I have a 'friend' that wants a 'cheap' pen it will be EEE + Mylands. If I want to 'sell' midrange and higher end pens I would use CA simply because the majority of people seem to like that finish.
> ...



Nope. It contains tripoli which is light brown and it will stain very light woods, maple, holly, etc. But it works great on medium and dark toned woods. Also has a slight pore filling effect which helps on some woods.


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## tim self (Feb 2, 2012)

I've always MMed wood.  One thing I've learned is if it's burning, you're pressing to hard.  
Friction causes heat and pressing to hard causes more heat.  Lighter touch is a must.

And as to why CA on wood, the other finishes tend to wear off.  I like the feel of wood as much as the next guy but hate the oils change the tone of the wood.

Just my opinion.


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## raar25 (Feb 21, 2012)

*It Depends But CA Usually Is Preferable*



Ulises Victoria said:


> I used CA to finish some wooden pens. I would like to know other people's thoughts on this matter. Why turn a wooden pen and then cover it with CA, which makes it look like plastic? I just finished turning ten pens in Bethlehem Olive Wood. I dry sanded them down to 600 and then used 0000 steel wool. Applied 3-4 coats of BLO and lastly 3-4 coats of Hut friction polish. These look and feel like wood. The ones I did with CA... yes they look bright and shiny but they don't seem to be wood.


 
As a rule my customers and my boss (wife) generally prefer the CA final finish.  Humans typically prefer smooth and shiny.  I recently finished a bowl with a glued on base and the top was a slightly less glossy softer shine and the bottom was a glassier shine using laquer.  Everyone that has looked at the bowl really loves the shine on the base.  So that being said I have sold some pens that people want to feel the wood and want a softer finish so I use a friction polish.  Otherwise the CA is much more durable and will last the HUT like all friction polishes and waxes will rub off fairly quickly.  I guess if a glass like finish is good enough for the finest furniture in the world I want to have my pens with the same finish.

So it really depends on the recipient.


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## thewishman (Feb 21, 2012)

If your MM is embedding itself into the wood - lighten your touch! A set of MM lasts me for years. When you are sanding with MM, it should never get more than slightly warm. 

Wet or dry, your MM should last through many, many uses.


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## SCR0LL3R (Feb 21, 2012)

thewishman said:


> If your MM is embedding itself into the wood - lighten your touch! A set of MM lasts me for years. When you are sanding with MM, it should never get more than slightly warm.
> 
> Wet or dry, your MM should last through many, many uses.



I have gone through a few sets now...always wet sanding. I got about 80 pens or so out of the first set but they were working very poorly for quite awhile at that point. After being reminded of how much better a new set works, I wanted to replace the next set after maybe 35-40 pens. Now I have switched away from MM and find finishing to be quicker without them and the results just as good in my opinion. This way I can replace my sandpaper every 4-5 pens so it's always fresh.

With the MM I had to pre-sand with 400 grit paper and then use all the colored pads, then polish with HUT and buff after. Now I just sand with wet/dry paper in 400,600,1000 & 1500 grit, then HUT and buff. That's a lot less sanding steps. I find the MM scratches are harder to get rid of than the regular sandpaper scratches and I also had to go back and repeat grits more often with the MM pads.

I am happy to not be using them now

Just my .02


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## ghostrider (Feb 22, 2012)

SCR0LL3R said:


> thewishman said:
> 
> 
> > If your MM is embedding itself into the wood - lighten your touch! A set of MM lasts me for years. When you are sanding with MM, it should never get more than slightly warm.
> ...


That's what I do.

Works for me, and I've got a bag with the left over MM that I had when I cut the large pads down to small.


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## LeeR (Feb 22, 2012)

When I started turning about a year ago, I never thought I'd want to use CA, preferring a "natural" finish.  But I do almost all my wood pens with CA, for the durability.  For something like a wine stopper or pizza cutter, they aren't getting handled as much as a pen (hopefully!), and I like using EEE, followed by friction polish. I sand thru about 320 or so, preferring the small flexible sanding pads, then I find that EEE really puts a decent final sanding on the wood prior to the final finish.  Although I tend to use friction polish, I've also used shellac and polyurethane over EEE, with good results.

As far as MM wearing out, I do not use them on bare wood, I only use them to smooth a CA finish, or to polish acrylic blanks.  I am amazed at how long they last if you keep them wet, and soak them a bit when done.  I'll occasionally use a bit on dishwashing liquid in the soak, and scrub them by hand, if they seem to have any build-up, and then let them dry.  I have a small wire basket that hangs over my soaking bucket, but even laying them on an old towel or paper towel is fine.

I honestly am wondering if my most recent set of pads will ever wear out.


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## mikespenturningz (Mar 13, 2012)

I had never used MM wet until last night after reading in forums about it. I don't think I will ever use it dry again! Wow what a finish.


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