# Are you people nuts?? Some questions deserve to be ignored.



## RussFairfield (Feb 9, 2010)

And the recent thread on using live ammunition to make a pen is one of them. 

I can't believe that anyone is serious when they want to take live ammunition apart to make a pen out of it; and then come into a public forum to ask directions because they don't have a clue what they are doing. 

This an accident waiting to happen, and anyone responding to such a question is taking personal responsibility for the persons injury. I can hear their lawyer now, "but you said this was safe in your internet message."

I have no idea what the liability and responsibility of the IAP would be, but prudence tells me that proceedures that are dangerous and could cause personal injury or loss of life should be no part of the IAP. People who are Hell bent on killing themselves, either from ignorance or on purpose, should be ignored, and such questions as this should be removed from the IAP by those who can do that. 

I know that a lot of the things we do can be dangerous when not done properly, but I think it is insanity to go out of our way to ecourage someone to do something that has a good chance of causing personal injury, when there are other ways to get around the problem. There are any number of members here who would gladly send the person asking the question some empty cartriges that are safe and harmless. Handling old live ammunition is neither safe nor harmless, and the IAP should be no part of it.

Off the soap box.


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## Robert Taylor (Feb 9, 2010)

i totally agree with you. i was amazed that someone would even attempt using "live" ammo without any experience/knowledge


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## mredburn (Feb 9, 2010)

I believe in his first post he stated he bought them under the assumption they were dummy rounds and only upon starting to disassemble them did he realize they were actually live rounds. Then he request assistance and advice and decided to forgo trying to finish using those rounds. As for liability by IAP, Jeff would need to consult a lawyer for advice on his /IAP liabilities for content. The members under good intentions are trying to help. Different people have different judgments upon what are acceptable risks based on their own life experience.  Mike


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## RDH79 (Feb 9, 2010)

I too was wondering, why would you even think of trying this. After reading that post I was going to reply  but didnt want my name anywhere near that post. If they need a couple casings. I have already fired ones from hunting and I have gone to the sportinggoods store and bought a bag of brass. Being cheap is one thing but stupid (Sorry) is another.  Thank You Russ for starting this.


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## ed4copies (Feb 9, 2010)

From a slightly different perspective:

IF you KNOW how to take apart live ammunition, you KNOW the risks and are UNLIKELY to tell a novice, for fear they will get hurt and sue you.

If you only THINK you KNOW, you are more likely to chime in.  

So, if I were asking the question I would be very concerned that the person answering COULD know No MORE than I do.  

As to the IAP, we have attorneys who participate here, I'd love to hear their opinions of any "forum liability".  Seems to me, Jeff would have to have the ability to READ EVERY thread, otherwise he certainly can't be held liable in any way.

Even I don't read every thread and I LIVE on the site.  Jeff has a real job!!


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## wolftat (Feb 9, 2010)

If it's on the internet it must be fact.


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## snyiper (Feb 9, 2010)

I am sure no one intended to do anything wrong or even realized there was any danger until he saw powder in a "dummy" shell. I do applaud him for coming here for advice rather than forging ahead. I do not think he nor anyone who tried to help has done anymore than inform him of the dangers and guide him in the proper way if he were to pursue it.  How bad would anyone feel if he asked the question and was ignored and tried on his own not knowing? Lord forbid something dramatic happened, would there be liability there as well? I think the original poster got enough info on the subject to make a educated decision not to do it, why? Because he WAS answered. I disagree Mr Fairfield we should all be able to share information and there are enough adults in this forum to make sure no outlandish answers went out. I think the choice to do it was not good but because of what people here said he made the right decision, why stop the progress of knowledge?


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## KenV (Feb 9, 2010)

That one was almost as much fun as one recently on another forum about 220volt wiring and the National Electric Code requirements.   

There was a similar discussion about info and what to believe and not believe after that one.   

This one was more interesting because of the assumptions of availability of services and opportunities in France, and many were not catching the international flavor.


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## mtgrizzly52 (Feb 9, 2010)

I hope those that think they know, read and heed Russ's comments. Liability aside for the forum and the individual for the moment... how would you feel if you gave someone bad information and they got hurt or worse? How would you respond to their loved ones?

If you are not an expert, then excuse me for being direct....SHUT UP! If you think you're an expert, well Shut up just because it's not you following your advice, it's an innocent person who doesn't understand how dangerous it is; and I mean that in the nicest possible safety terms.

Rick (mtgrizzly52)


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## Scoots (Feb 9, 2010)

Just my 2 cents, but it seems like the best course would be for those with knowledge on the topic to chime in and say, pretty strongly, "Don't do that!"  To just ignore a topic like that in my opinion risks someone getting hurt - either the original poster or someone who reads the thread and picks up the idea.  The live ammo thread is just one example, but there are also plenty of other dangerous things that people think up that aren't obviously dangerous.  If threads are just ignored, knowledge of the particular threats will not be spread to the poster or other readers of the forum.

As for personal liability on the forum, it's not my area of the law, but I've never heard of a forum being liable for bad advice from its participants.  To impose such liability, IMO, would be a stretch of the causation element as well as the duty element.


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## Minotbob (Feb 9, 2010)

Disassembling loaded ammo is very safe and easy if you're a reloader and have the tools. If you don't and you still want to disassemble, find someone who is a reloader and ask them to do it.


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## NewLondon88 (Feb 9, 2010)

well.. I guess I can't ask for help making my C4 pen ..


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## rlofton (Feb 9, 2010)

Depends on what you're gonna use it for, Charlie.


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## altaciii (Feb 9, 2010)

well said Russ.


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## papaturner (Feb 9, 2010)

altaciii said:


> well said Russ.



Amen


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## Russianwolf (Feb 9, 2010)

While I agree that this may not be the place for a discussion of that type.....

How does someone learn such a skill if the "experts" don't share their knowledge? 

You can't become an expert reloader if someone isn't willing to teach you.

While not comparable, where would our individual pen making abilities be if we didn't share our successes and failures?


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## wolftat (Feb 9, 2010)

NewLondon88 said:


> well.. I guess I can't ask for help making my C4 pen ..


 Just keep it in your pocket and light your pants on fire.


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## greenmtnguy (Feb 9, 2010)

Neil,
Don't say things like that. He listens to you. :biggrin:


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## witz1976 (Feb 9, 2010)

Russianwolf said:


> While I agree that this may not be the place for a discussion of that type.....
> 
> How does someone learn such a skill if the "experts" don't share their knowledge?
> 
> ...



There is a place for people who want to learn how to reload and disassemble rounds of ammunition.  I don't think a pen turning forum is the place. While we all share in our knowledge of pen turning, I have yet to hear of a failure that results in an explosion, loss of limbs and or death...actually I am sure if I look deep enough someone may have lost a finger but that is typically from a saw.  Anyway you get my point.


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## Mac (Feb 9, 2010)

Russianwolf said:


> How does someone learn such a skill if the "experts" don't share their knowledge?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## bobleibo (Feb 9, 2010)

Russianwolf said:


> While I agree that this may not be the place for a discussion of that type.....
> 
> How does someone learn such a skill if the "experts" don't share their knowledge?
> 
> ...



Learning how to turn a pen over the internet is one thing...they don't go  B O O M  like a live round does. I suggest that learning how to handle live rounds is something done in the actual presence of a trained expert, but that is just my opinion. 
Next thing will be someone asking how to do surgery by email.....
Cheers
Bob


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## helgi (Feb 9, 2010)

Have to get in to this,let me tell you first that I totally agree with Russ regarding the sharing of info that could harm someone. But being from Europe and the petitioner was from spain if i'm not mistaken,I can understand the draw that such a pen would have for a turner from there, it is almost impossible to get your hands on any ammo or empty shells they are not sold in stores so you can hopefully see the draw to this turning media.
The best reply in that treath was a suggestion that the men approach any of the members of IAP, to send out some casings I do not know if this has happend as yet. Just my thoughts on this.

helgi.


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## leestoresund (Feb 9, 2010)

*boom*

The major problem with doing surgery over the internet is the loss of blood between posts.  
Anesthesia is second.

Lee


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## its_virgil (Feb 9, 2010)

I agree with you Russ. Also, I don't understand why some ask about doing something potentially quite dangerous and are given several warnings not to but they report back they did it anyway. Maybe it was OK this time but what about next? I just don't understand...I really don't.
Do a good turn daily!
Don


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## Russianwolf (Feb 9, 2010)

Wow, I usually don't do this, I just ignore it, but this time I'm not.

3 people quoted my post, but I don't think they actually read it in its entirety.

I pointed out first that I agreed that this wasn't the best place for a conversation on reloading. A gun forum would be much better I think, but I also don't complain about those that show off their guns on here even though I don't enjoy it. While we are all pen makers we have a diverse group of people with just as diverse interests and professions. I wouldn't be surprised to find that we have several reloaders on the site, if not I could always ask my neighbor for advice as he is the expert around here. 

My next 2 points went to the initial complaint of this thread, that no one on this site  should share this kind of knowledge with someone else here. We all started out as novices in everything. If it weren't for those with more knowledge than ourselves we would still be crawling instead of walking. Even if it's through the web, people can give good advice on dangerous topics. Sometimes I agree that that advice should be "go to a professional", but if an expert feels that the advice can be related through the web adequately, then they should be free to do so.

My last point, As I mentioned was not really comparable to reloading. The fact that some chose to compare it after I stated that, well... 

I personally approach everything I do in my shop as dangerous and potentially life threatening. Likely this is one of the reason why a couple splinters is the worst "accidents" I've ever had.   Yes, saws can cut off fingers. Lathes can grab clothes and pull fingers and arms out of socket, as well as throw chunks of wood at high speeds around the shop. Eye protection is a must on any tool for obvious reasons. I respect my tools to the point that I won't use them when I'm tired or have any chance of being distracted by something I can control. I actually haven't been in the shop for two months due to hurting one hand, then spraining my other wrist.

If you don't have a weak stomach, go to the posted site in the first post here http://www.shopfloortalk.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-14208.html

Maybe I'm just in a mood or maybe it's time for me to visit less often and ignore anything I'm not interested in. Who knows. [shakes head in frustration]


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## jeff (Feb 9, 2010)

OK, without passing judgment on the thread in question, let me make this general comment.

Although the attorney-reviewed Terms Of Service here provide some measure of insulation from liability, the cost to defend even a frivolous lawsuit can be enormous. Not a risk I'm able or willing to take personally, nor do I wish to expose members, the volunteer managers, or anyone else with any association to our site to that sort of liability.

So, anytime you see a post which describes processes, materials, or procedures which you feel might involve dangers beyond what a reasonable person would consider to be normally involved in the craft of pen making or woodworking, please alert me to the post. I know that's a fuzzy gray line, but since it's my rear end on that line, I'd appreciate the opportunity to at least make the call.


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## MesquiteMan (Feb 10, 2010)

It would have been better to use the yellow triangle to report the thread in question than to start a pile on.


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