# Teacher not allowed to use red ink!



## sbwertz (Dec 28, 2013)

My daughter is a teacher and I thought I would make her a teacher's pen.  When I asked her about it, though, she told me she was not allowed to use red ink, because it was not good for the students' self esteem to get back a paper covered in red ink!  

Did I mention that she teaches tenth and twelfth grade International Baccalaureate English classes?


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## skiprat (Dec 28, 2013)

Sounds crazy, doesn't it? My wife is an A level teacher ( also English ) and they are also not permitted to use red ink for marking. 
She uses purple mostly


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## Ambidex (Dec 28, 2013)

Sooooooo...that's what happened to my self-esteem??:biggrin: My mother was a teacher and the only thing red ink was bad for was my bottom.:wink:


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## maxwell_smart007 (Dec 28, 2013)

Marking is as much about giving constructive feedback and positive comments as it is about marking things as 'wrong'.  Red has a connotation of 'error' and negativity...

I've actually noticed that when I put comments in red, students tend to read them less than if they're green (which sometimes looks like I've squashed bugs all over the page).   

Red means stop, or wrong - which is not what I tend to be noting on a student's paper.


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## MichaelD (Dec 28, 2013)

I've got to really hold my tongue on this one.  I had visions of being an educator when I started school but began to see early on there was serious movement to psychology and politics in education and not student learning.  But that's just my opinion.  I will not be coming back to this discussion.


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## maxwell_smart007 (Dec 28, 2013)

MichaelD said:


> I've got to really hold my tongue on this one.  I had visions of being an educator when I started school but began to see early on there was serious movement to psychology and politics in education and not student learning.  But that's just my opinion.  I will not be coming back to this discussion.



Teaching does not occur in a vacuum - without using psychology, it's tough to develop effective teaching methods.


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## ctubbs (Dec 28, 2013)

I don't know, Andrew.  Just possibly Mr. Rodgers' (my HS Principle) paddle really was a psychological device after all, but it sure felt like a but busting every time I was the on the receiving end.  Whatever it was, there was never any doubt that my attention was attained and held.  Often, especially in college, my papers resembled the results of an abstract artist's brush cleaning session.  I did learn to own my errors, admit they were mine and strive to correct them.


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## ElMostro (Dec 28, 2013)

My wife was a teacher (I asked her to quit and she reluctantly did), she loved teaching but the hardest parts was dealing with the admin and the parents.  Kids today have to be treated with silk gloves or they will run to mommy and then MOMMY runs to the admin whining about how little Joey was whining...I mean expressing how he was mistreated by the teacher bec he got an B on a test but the teacher needs to give him an A bec if not it will affect his GPA wha, wha, wha.  Too much of a headache if you asked me...and then having to do more work when she got home to get ready for the next day, she really cared about the kids but the political correctness requirements were  just crazy. And for the most part the admin would throw the teacher under the bus just to make whinny parents happy. 
Back in my day parents actually worked WITH teachers today its a constant battle.  Yea, I have some pretty strong feelings on this topic...so I'll stop here.


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## maxwell_smart007 (Dec 28, 2013)

Just remember - don't paint all admin, all teachers, and all parents with the same brush...


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## BKelley (Dec 28, 2013)

I wonder if George Washington, Jefferson, Roosevelt or any of our great leaders esteem was damaged by red marks or is it just the kids of today.  I greatly suspect that the child of today could stand a little of old fashion learning.  Reading, Writing, Rithmatic and a taste of the hickory stick should the occasion arise.   Enough said.

Ben


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## Kretzky (Dec 28, 2013)

Yeah! let's _not_ tell kids they're underachieving or when they get things wrong.
Let's leave it till they get out into the big wide world where of course EVERYONE will make allowances for their shortcomings & their fragile egos. Gimme a break & get over it!


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## JP61 (Dec 28, 2013)

The color red, does not seem to bother them much when playing video games, as a matter of fact, the more blood and guts the better.


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## sbwertz (Dec 28, 2013)

Her students are IB students....the cream of the crop....and will be going to college next year.  They are not grade school kids, or  underprivileged kids.   Believe me, college professors are not going to spare the red pencil!  What are their tender psyches going to do the first time a college professor tears their precious prose to shreds and hands it back to redo?  Is it fair to the kids to send them into the lions' den unprepared?  And, yes, she gets the parents screaming at her door when she fails one of them for not turning in the assignments.  I will give her department chair credit for standing behind her, though.  

Last year she had two seniors who didn't graduate with their class because they didn't bother to do all the assignments.  They thought, mistakenly, that their social status and bank balance would force the school to let them graduate with their class.  They had been told, explicitly, that they would not be able to graduate if they didn't make up the work, but chose not to do so.  So they had to go to summer school to make up the missed assignments and got their diploma, but didn't get to go through the graduation ceremony.


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## Teeball (Dec 28, 2013)

Not to worry the real world has a way to even things out. Everyone deserves a trophy for participation, NOT.


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## Ambidex (Dec 28, 2013)

I'm with the real world adults that understand the more you mollycoddle kids the more you damage them in the long run. I've only gone through 3 daughters and 3 grandkids and I'm a dinosaur but if people can't remember how good life was in the day when we were taught right from wrong, then they are either in denial or so short-termed memory or so young they don't know the difference. Unlike the older and wiser in this thread I'm adamant about the psychological crap they preach these days is bullcrap and the laziest way out for parents and others( teachers are off limits because they are hog-tied) seems to be the way the new generation is tilting. I understand every generation comes out with a smarter and better way of doing things but has anyone noticed it's not getting better, just different? Sorry about the rant but someone has to stand up and say enough of this crap..


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## Smitty37 (Dec 28, 2013)

How come, when I went to school having my error's marked/corrected in red never did a darned thing to my self esteem? It indicated only that I'd missed a question/problem. When did it start to mean that the student was inadequate? Red was used only because it was easy to see where the mistakes were, no other reason. If the teacher uses purple or green for the same purpose how long will it be before purple or green become associated with failure and "damages" the childs self esteem?? 

I also didn't get smiles when I got a problem/question correct - that was just doing what was expected of me, doing what you should do is no great reason for reward.





maxwell_smart007 said:


> MichaelD said:
> 
> 
> > I've got to really hold my tongue on this one. I had visions of being an educator when I started school but began to see early on there was serious movement to psychology and politics in education and not student learning. But that's just my opinion. I will not be coming back to this discussion.
> ...


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## Brian G (Dec 29, 2013)

Copy editing used to be done in blue pencil.  Then "blue penciling" became synonymous with censoring.  Somewhere, out there, some copy editor is probably lamenting that right now.

We don't use chalk and slates anymore either, although a stylus and tablet are the same concept.

When I graded college exams, I used green or purple.  It had nothing to do with sparing feelings.  It had more to do with an accidental discovery that I had fewer arguments seeking "partial credit" than if I used red ink.


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## Holz Mechaniker (Dec 29, 2013)

> "They want more for themselves and less for everybody else, but I’ll tell  you what they don’t want. They don’t want a population of citizens  capable of critical thinking. Smart enough to run the machines and do the paperwork and dump enough to accept the lousy paycheck..." - George Carlin.



This is not meant to be political or anything but a quote of the Late George Carlin that seems to hold a truism of the current status of public education in the United States.


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## jimjam66 (Dec 29, 2013)

What an interesting thread!  Clearly the problem is not just in the US - we have decided to home-school our kids because as far as I can make out schooling in the UK is simply a form of long-term childminding so that parents can get back to contributing to the economy as soon as possible.  It certainly doesn't seem to be about education anymore - teachers threaten to go out on strike when the government suggests testing the kids at various stages ... what are they scared of?  That the kids will be revealed as inadequate or that the teaching will be revealed as inadequate?  

Steven will remember (as do I) that in South Africa we sat exams every year, got them marked in red ink and got held back a year if we failed.  I may have self-esteem issues but NONE OF THEM have anything to do with getting a proper education ...

{DEEP BREATH}{RANT OVER}


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## PWL (Dec 29, 2013)

A spanking at school meant another one when I got home. Teachers did their jobs and parents supported them!

PW


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## Chatham PenWorks (Dec 29, 2013)

PWL said:


> A spanking at school meant another one when I got home. Teachers did their jobs and parents supported them!  PW



Yeah. Nowadays, a spanking at school means a fight and or police and a big $$ lawsuit. And the kid does the same dumb crap the next day. The modern day laser focus feelings and safety (regarding little to no physical activity/play) is a great disservice to the long term success of both the children and the country as a whole.


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## Penultimate (Dec 29, 2013)

I have a pen on the lathe that is specifically for red ink for correcting test reports and specs. I use red ink when editing on my own work so it stands out from all the black and white on the page. 

My boss often edits (corrects) my work with a black pen, I don't think he's concerned about my self esteem though. I think it's tougher to find all the corrections (edits).


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## alankulwicki7 (Dec 29, 2013)

It seems like many of todays kids are being set up for failure. My wife works in HR for a large US company and the kids that never see 'red ink' will be the same ones that don't understand what a bad review is. A couple of bad reviews and it's out the door. Maybe then they will understand...

These kids are also raised by 'helicopter parents' who hover over every move their kids make. A few years back our neighbor girl wanted to see what my wife did at work and 'interview' some of my wife's co-workers for a school project. Every appointment had to come thru the mother and not the girl herself.

I can understand the 'every kid gets an award' for some activities because it will keep them interested (vs losing all the time) but at a certain point you have to reward them based on results.


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## turncrazy43 (Dec 29, 2013)

It seems to me that political correctness has contributed to the dumbing down of society. We are more interested in making everyone feel warm and fuzzy instead of doing the right thing.
_________________________________________________________
Everyday I'm vertical is a great day


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## sbell111 (Dec 29, 2013)

Good grief.  Put a green refill in the pen and move on with your life.  I don't understand why people get so up in arms about issues like this.


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## sbell111 (Dec 29, 2013)

turncrazy43 said:


> It seems to me that political correctness has contributed to the dumbing down of society. We are more interested in making everyone feel warm and fuzzy instead of doing the right thing.
> _________________________________________________________
> Everyday I'm vertical is a great day



How is marking a paper in some color other than red dumbing anyone down?


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## Chatham PenWorks (Dec 29, 2013)

sbell111 said:


> How is marking a paper in some color other than red dumbing anyone down?



It's not the color change. It's  the reasoning behind it, and the trend behind that.


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## turncrazy43 (Dec 29, 2013)

Steve, my comment said nothing about the color red. I stand by my opinion that political correctness has gone too far! 
___________________________________
Everyday I'm vertical is a great day


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## maxwell_smart007 (Dec 29, 2013)

Deep breaths, everyone - it's a pen colour.  

Life goes on.


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## JP61 (Dec 29, 2013)

maxwell_smart007 said:


> Deep breaths, everyone - it's a pen colour.
> 
> Life goes on.



It should be as basic as "it's a pen colour" but, obviously it is not. In combination with the rest of the *STUPID *ideologies, they have an effect on society and since we're all part of it, it has an effect on life.


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## Smitty37 (Dec 29, 2013)

Brian G said:


> Copy editing used to be done in blue pencil. Then "blue penciling" became synonymous with censoring. Somewhere, out there, some copy editor is probably lamenting that right now.
> 
> *We don't use chalk and slates anymore either, although a stylus and tablet are the same concept.*
> 
> When I graded college exams, I used green or purple. It had nothing to do with sparing feelings. It had more to do with an accidental discovery that I had fewer arguments seeking "partial credit" than if I used red ink.


 
What does that have to do with red correction markings?  The switch away from chalk boards to whiteboard with dry markers was made long whatever they do now was from that.  No baring at all on why they are 'banning' red correction today.

That's an ad hoc observation and might or might not represent reality.
 
Children learn what we teach them, and if chilcren associate red with failure or less than adequate performance and the lack of a smiley face when they do something right as a slight, it is because that is what they were taught -- they were not born thinking that way.  So if children are becoming more sensitive to such things it is because and only because that is what they are being taught to do.


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## 1080Wayne (Dec 29, 2013)

Smitty37 said:


> Brian G said:
> 
> 
> > Children learn what we teach them, and if chilcren associate red with failure or less than adequate performance and the lack of a smiley face when they do something right as a slight, it is because that is what they were taught -- they were not born thinking that way.  So if children are becoming more sensitive to such things it is because and only because that is what they are being taught to do.
> ...


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## Kretzky (Dec 29, 2013)

As Smitty said earlier, red was used simply so that teachers' comments & marking stood out from the students' work. In my schools, (& I suspect many others too) red comments could be positive & not just negative! Students often got "Well Done!" "Good Effort!" & "See Me!" didn't always mean a dressing down & all written in red ink. It seems that the modern trend is that we reward people now simply for turning up! I was delighted to see that the OP's daughter was actually able to fail kids & got the backing of her seniors!
Let's face it a future boss (if one succeeds in finding a job) isn't going to be polite or 'nice' at performance reviews, if you've turned in a poor performance.


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## John Den (Dec 29, 2013)

I correct my own work in red, because it stands out, It doesn't demoralise me in the slightest!
John


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## Smitty37 (Dec 29, 2013)

Kretzky said:


> As Smitty said earlier, red was used simply so that teachers' comments & marking stood out from the students' work. In my schools, (& I suspect many others too) red comments could be positive & not just negative! Students often got "Well Done!" "Good Effort!" & "See Me!" didn't always mean a dressing down & all written in red ink. It seems that the modern trend is that we reward people now simply for turning up! I was delighted to see that the OP's daughter was actually able to fail kids & got the backing of her seniors!
> *Let's face it a future boss (if one succeeds in finding a job) isn't going to be polite or 'nice' at performance reviews, if you've turned in a poor performance*.


 Oh I was polite enough....but the employee didn't walk out of my office thinking he/she had gotten kudos for just showing up for work.


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## Brian G (Dec 29, 2013)

Smitty37 said:


> What does that have to do with red correction markings? . . .
> 
> That's an ad hoc observation and might or might not represent reality.
> 
> Children learn what we teach them, and if chilcren associate red with failure or less than adequate performance and the lack of a smiley face when they do something right as a slight, it is because that is what they were taught -- they were not born thinking that way. So if children are becoming more sensitive to such things it is because and only because that is what they are being taught to do.


 
It has less to do with red ink corrections than my comment about blue pencil edits, but to point out that some things change with time. My observation about green and purple causing fewer arguments about seeking partial credit represented my reality, and I'm not assigning it as a solution for universal applications, so I disagree that it's an ad hoc observation.

I think this is one of those things people get worked up about because they can, not because it matters. If it's wrong, it's wrong, no matter the color of ink.

I'm hopeful 1080Wayne can fix his post above to correct the comment incorrectly attributed to me.


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## Smitty37 (Dec 29, 2013)

Brian G said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > What does that have to do with red correction markings? . . .
> ...


 Your reality is no different than anyone elses reality.  Reality is reality - what's real is real.  The way you describe your "personal reality exactly fits the definition of ad hoc when used as an adverb i.e. ad hoc observation. "For the specific purpose, case, or situation at hand and for no other:"  ​


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## sbell111 (Dec 29, 2013)

Since people believe that changes like this will have some effect on the children's future employment (even though it is unlikely that they are even aware of the issue), I'll give my opinion on decisions made and how I expect my employees to accept a decision.

When decisions must be made, I try to find out as much about the issue as practical and then I make the decision.  I communicate the decision to the affected employees and give them a brief explanation of why I made that decision.  They don't have to like my decision, but they do have to implement my decision as I direct them to.  If I learned that my employees were whining about that decision online or otherwise, it would not reflect well on them or their future employment.

Just saying.


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## sbwertz (Dec 29, 2013)

It is not the color of the ink that is at issue here, but the assumption on the part of educators that teachers must put a student's "self esteem" above their acquisition of knowledge.


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## Smitty37 (Dec 29, 2013)

*Main Point*

*My main point is that children are born a blank sheet and they respond to things they way they are taught to respond. * 

They are not born thinking in any particular manner about anything.  

If they begin to associate red marks on paper as representing "negative" feedback, it is because they have been taught to make that association.  

Just as they learn from us to say "please" and "thank you" at certain times and to avoid using some words they learn from us when to have their feelings hurt by what others say and do.  

If a child feels "down" because they didn't get a smiley face and Johnny did it's because we taught them to feel that way. 

By just observing my grandchildren I can see that they are very sensitive to any number of things that wouldn't have bothered me in the least and wouldn't even have bothered their parents but they have been taught to be bothered by them.


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## Smitty37 (Dec 29, 2013)

sbell111 said:


> Since people believe that changes like this will have some effect on the children's future employment (even though it is unlikely that they are even aware of the issue), I'll give my opinion on decisions made and how I expect my employees to accept a decision.
> 
> When decisions must be made, I try to find out as much about the issue as practical and then I make the decision. I communicate the decision to the affected employees and give them a brief explanation of why I made that decision. They don't have to like my decision, but they do have to implement my decision as I direct them to. If I learned that my employees were whining about that decision online or otherwise, it would not reflect well on them or their future employment.
> 
> Just saying.


Holy Mackerel Steve---you're doing something that I agree with whole heartedly. Although, if I disagreed with my boss's decision I would tell him "You're the boss and I'll do as you say, but I don't think this is the right way to go" or something like that. He/she would usually ask what my thinking was. Once in a blue moon they might modify their decision a little.


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## Brian G (Dec 29, 2013)

My other ad hoc observation is that this is just another GOFT.

Out, and I'll stay of the lawn.


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## sbell111 (Dec 29, 2013)

sbwertz said:


> It is not the color of the ink that is at issue here, but the assumption on the part of educators that teachers must put a student's "self esteem" above their acquisition of knowledge.



The problem is, that's an assumption that doesn't hold up to reality.  After all, the teacher wasn't told not to be critical of students' work.  She was merely told not to use red ink.


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## sbell111 (Dec 29, 2013)

The thing that gets me is that the reason that the teacher was told might not be the actual reason for the decision.  All too often, people answer questions regardless of whether they actually know the answer.  Perhaps the 'self-esteem' answer was given by such a person.

Would you people be up in arms if the answer was 'red doesn't photocopy well'?


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## Smitty37 (Dec 29, 2013)

sbell111 said:


> The thing that gets me is that the reason that the teacher was told might not be the actual reason for the decision. All too often, people answer questions regardless of whether they actually know the answer. Perhaps the 'self-esteem' answer was given by such a person.
> 
> Would you people be up in arms if the answer was *'red doesn't photocopy well*'?


Actually at one time it didn't....Our local food pantry still requires volunteers to do some things in red because they think it won't copy - or at least they did until I showed them one day that it copies just fine and in red on their latest copier.

I think I have heard the "self esteem" explaination from enough different sources (from sports, to recess play ground games, to class room operations) to be convinced that it is often the reason things are done. It is often even applied to some adult situations now days.


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## sbell111 (Dec 29, 2013)

Smitty37 said:


> sbell111 said:
> 
> 
> > The thing that gets me is that the reason that the teacher was told might not be the actual reason for the decision. All too often, people answer questions regardless of whether they actually know the answer. Perhaps the 'self-esteem' answer was given by such a person.
> ...


I noticed that you decided not to actually answer the question.


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## Chatham PenWorks (Dec 29, 2013)

Sbell111

You asked a question that'd already been answered, several times over.


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## Smitty37 (Dec 29, 2013)

sbell111 said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > sbell111 said:
> ...


I thought I did - no and I am no up in arms because some schools don't allow teachers to correct papers with red pencil or ink either.  I think it is a world of dumb, but I'm not up in arms about it.


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## Carl Fisher (Dec 29, 2013)

Common sense in the world has checked out with no expectations to return.  Red ink is crushing self-esteem?  What a crock. Teachers can't correct the kids or the parents are down there screaming at the school about their precious little perfect children. I have 3 kids, please use red ink to call out mistakes so they learn from them! You'll never find me arguing with a teacher because they corrected an incorrect answer.

BLUE
GREEN
RED
YELLOW


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## sbell111 (Dec 29, 2013)

Chatham PenWorks said:


> Sbell111
> 
> You asked a question that'd already been answered, several times over.



Really ???  Where?


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## Daju (Dec 29, 2013)

Well, in the real life of facilities construction engineering, the designers mark up the drawings repeatedly using red for items needing correction and yellow for correct items. That's why we call checking documents red-lines. Green, purple and black have different connotations and meanings.  These procedures are industry wide,  established and recognized in our ISO quality certification documents and followed strictly. Guess that's OK when your working driven, creative, and caring ADULTS!  Get used to it cause it ain't never gonna change.


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## Smitty37 (Dec 29, 2013)

One of my daughters' elementary teachers started putting smiley stickers on good papers....she later was a coach for the same daughters in high school sports and remains friends with my daughter who still lives near her.  She confessed to me a couple of years ago that she, after a couple of years, was sorry she'd ever started doing it.  It seems that the children who got stickers began to mock those who didn't get a sticker and get upset if they turned in a paper and didn't get one.  So she had to start putting them on all the papers to keep peace in the classroom.


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## rd_ab_penman (Dec 30, 2013)

My grade 3 teacher used red ink, never hurt mt self esteem.

Les


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## Waluy (Dec 30, 2013)

I agree that red ink never hurt my self esteem but my wife is a licensed teacher (she stays at home and runs a daycare to be with our children now) but she was taught in college red ink was not to be used because it damaged children's self esteem so I don't think that was just one schools answer. Personally I think we need to teach children not to let other people affect their self esteem.


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## Smitty37 (Dec 30, 2013)

Waluy said:


> I agree that red ink never hurt my self esteem but my wife is a licensed teacher (she stays at home and runs a daycare to be with our children now) but she was taught in college red ink was not to be used because it damaged children's self esteem so I don't think that was just one schools answer. Personally I think we need to teach children not to let other people affect their self esteem.


I agree -- I have three daughters who were educated to be teachers and they were all taught the same thing this goes back to the late 80s and early 90s.


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## sbell111 (Dec 31, 2013)

So basically, what you are saying is that this isn't some wacky, granola eating administrator making a decision.  This is something that has been taught to teachers for a quarter of a century and the admin was simply making sure that his teachers were complying with known good practices.  That certainly puts a different face on this thread, in my opinion.


Note:  if you wish to challenge whether I've properly used every word in this post, don't bother.  I probably haven't and don't much care.


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## TellicoTurning (Dec 31, 2013)

PWL said:


> A spanking at school meant another one when I got home. Teachers did their jobs and parents supported them!
> 
> PW



In my elementary grades I mostly went to small schools where the teachers all knew my parents and would call them and tell them if there was a spanking at school.  And I was more afraid of that spanking at home than the one in  school.... so I didn't get them at school... I did toe the line very  carefully....


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## lorbay (Dec 31, 2013)

rd_ab_penman said:


> My grade 3 teacher used red ink, never hurt mt self esteem.
> 
> Les



I'm with Les on this one. Plus it was easy to see at the top of the page.

Lin.


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## TellicoTurning (Dec 31, 2013)

Smitty37 said:


> sbell111 said:
> 
> 
> > Since people believe that changes like this will have some effect on the children's future employment (even though it is unlikely that they are even aware of the issue), I'll give my opinion on decisions made and how I expect my employees to accept a decision.
> ...



This particular post is about employees, but as the original opening post was about children... when I was raising my son, I was a single parent and made a number of arbitrary decisions, based on my opinion or perception of the situation, but I also allowed him to discuss - not back talk - the situation and if he came up with a convincing argument as to why or how the situation could be changed, I also listened and did on occasions change my mind... but if I perceived a danger to him in the situation, then I stuck to my guns.   Today he is a very confident, self employed and highly motivated young man who is and will be very successful in his life.


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## sbell111 (Dec 31, 2013)

TellicoTurning said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > sbell111 said:
> ...


I read the opening post as being about employees.  An employer gave an instruction to an employee not to use a particular color pen.


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## sbell111 (Dec 31, 2013)

sbwertz said:


> It is not the color of the ink that is at issue here, but the assumption on the part of educators that teachers must put a student's "self esteem" above their acquisition of knowledge.



I feel like this post didn't get the attention that it deserved.

I question as to why some people believe that it has to be one or the other.  I am not seeing how changing the color of a grading pen degrades a student's acquisition of knowledge.  If fact, I can imagine that doing so would enhance this acquisition if it is true that the red in was truly negatively effecting a child's self esteem.  Avoiding that negative effect would presumably enhance the teacher's ability to cram more knowledge into that child's brain because the child would be more focused on what the teacher wrote and not the color with which it was written.


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## juteck (Dec 31, 2013)

Wow.  In the workplace (or at least the place that signs my paycheck), red is still used for reviewing and marking and editing.  It's really great when they use a fat red in-your-face sharpie.  When I first started this career, there was a time when I believe the reviewer should have just had me re-print it on red paper.  I'd much rather see a big bold edit or comment than a tiny little chicken scratch pencil marking that I'm likely to miss in the rush of a deadline.


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## Leatherman1998 (Dec 31, 2013)

If they don't like red ink don't let them join the military. If you make a mistake in the USAF you will see red ink on every little thing.

Sent from my Galaxy Tab 3 using Forum Runner


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## sbell111 (Dec 31, 2013)

A google search turned up this very interesting blog post.  I can't seem to copy and paste big chunks of it as I am on my ipad, but I encourage anyone who is actually interested in this issue to pop over and read it.


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## Kaspar (Dec 31, 2013)

Caveat:  I live in a town with excellent public schools.  I know many superb educators at all levels.  I imprecate no one specifically, but rather the whole system.  



maxwell_smart007 said:


> MichaelD said:
> 
> 
> > I've got to really hold my tongue on this one.  I had visions of being an educator when I started school but began to see early on there was serious movement to psychology and politics in education and not student learning.  But that's just my opinion.  I will not be coming back to this discussion.
> ...



True.  But the current system doesn't even bother to take the psychology of boys into account.  In some cases, it's openly hostile to them.  The schools have been, for want of a better term, feminized, that is oriented toward feminine goals and concerns (safety, getting along).  Schools are nigh unto prisons for boys, and if they get out of line, we go Soviet on them, and drug them into quietude.  To understand the differences between boys and girls, one might read this.  Or if you like it with the bark on, this and this.

As for the rest, my educational policy can be summed up thus.  Compulsory no further than grade 8.  It is not necessary to teach math until grade 5 or 6, and unless you really have an aptitude for it, you should never have to take algebra or any other higher maths.  It should be heavy on reading, writing and civics.  By grade 8 you should be able to write a coherent paragraph, make change and know who your government representatives are.  After that, education is a luxury for which you should pay for yourself.  70% of the people in college have no business being there.  Anyone with the aptitude, but boys especially, should be given vocational training.  (Boys learn well, hands on.)  You should be able to start work when you're 14.  Begin saving right away, be disciplined, develop a smart investment plan, and you'll retire a millionaire by 45 or 50.  After that, if you want to learn a foreign language, study Goethe, computational hydrodynamics, music theory, Renaissance history, or basket weaving, hire a tutor.   You'll have the money, and there'll be plenty of debt-saddled, wannabe professor college grads who'd love to teach you.  

(And I just used the word "college"?  Sorry, I meant "Academic Theme Parks.")


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## Mason Kuettel (Dec 31, 2013)

As a teacher I have heard many different discussions about this very topic.  Do I agree with the "self-esteem" reasoning, NO.  Do I agree with the idea that I should do my best to boost a child's self-esteem, NO.  What I do agree with is that it is a very little thing for me to pick up a blue marker (which stands out rather nicely from the black writing) instead of a red pen just to keep from having this conversation once or twice a year with a "helicopter parent."

Kids are handled very differently now than they were when I was in school (I'm only 32) but, with that being said, I was handled very differently than when my parents were in school.  Things change...we ALL must get over that and move on.  I, for one, will choose to worry about things much more important than ink color or "self-esteem" issues.


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## Smitty37 (Dec 31, 2013)

sbell111 said:


> So basically, what you are saying is that this isn't some wacky, granola eating administrator making a decision. This is something that has been taught to teachers for a quarter of a century and the admin was simply making sure that his teachers were complying with known good practices. That certainly puts a different face on this thread, in my opinion.
> 
> 
> Note: if you wish to challenge whether I've properly used every word in this post, don't bother. I probably haven't and don't much care.


 
1. I can't speak for anyone else but NO that is not what I am saying. 

2. Nor have I said anything that implies that's what I think. 

3.Nor would I agree that because something is taught in college it is a "known good practice". In fact, I think that most colleges conferring degrees in education are following a lousey method using "How to teach XYZ" rather than teaching XYZ. leaving us with too many teachers not really knowing the subjects they are teaching. This is not a reflection on or a critism of the teachers, it isn't their fault.

And No I don't agree that it puts a different face on the thread. Other than that I don't see much wrong with your response.

BTW what I think is that if seeing papers corrected in red ink "hurts" the self-esteem of students it is because we (we being society) have taught them to be hurt by it. They were not born with the thought in their head that red marks on a paper makes them a lesser person. 

I also think some of our school systems have put in place policies that are just flat stupid and if they have any impact on education it is negative.

I also believe that like war being too important to be left in the hands of generals, education is too important to leave in the hands of educators - which includes most administrators of education (at all levels) who if you talk to them will tell you they are educators.

And I don't think there is anything to indicate that employees of the Federal Government (read regulators) are smart enough to improve education by imposing their ideas on all of us.


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## anthonyd (Dec 31, 2013)

I have been a teacher for over 25 years and still use red ink. I use a fountain pen to grade papers and I also use other ink colours (Canadian spelling). The arguments about red ink make me laugh. I choose the colour that I feel like choosing and have never had a complaint.

Tony


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## sbell111 (Dec 31, 2013)

Smitty37 said:


> BTW what I think is that if seeing papers corrected in red ink "hurts" the self-esteem of students it is because we (we being society) have taught them to be hurt by it. They were not born with the thought in their head that red marks on a paper makes them a lesser person.


Why does it matter how the thought 'entered their heads'?  If red ink has that effect (or is even believed to have that effect on a few), what's the problem with simply using a different color ink?  Did you happen to read the blog post that I linked?  I really feel that there was good stuff there that would add to this conversation for those that are truly interested in this subject.  I especially like that he took a basic psychological look at the issue.

I didn't reply to the stuff that seemed that you were just disagreeing with me to disagree with me and the stuff that wasn't really on topic to this thread in order to not get the conversation bogged down.


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## Smitty37 (Dec 31, 2013)

sbell111 said:


> Smitty37 said:
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## sbell111 (Dec 31, 2013)

Smitty37 said:


> sbell111 said:
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> 
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Given that the OP never suggested that teachers not fairly and accurately mark down papers, None of that has anything to do with this thread or matches what I have actually witnessed.  All of your opinion as to the general state of education and whether your grand kids were passed when they deserved to fail seems off topic to this thread.

It should also be noted that I apparently misread the OP initially.  I took it to be that an administrator told the teacher not to use red pen and that the teacher disagreed with the decision.  Instead, it appears that the teacher agrees that red ink aught not be used and may or may jot have been told that by an admin, read about it in the literature, learned either in college or via continuing education, et al.


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## maxwell_smart007 (Dec 31, 2013)

The idea that old concepts must be rigidly followed, regardless of the reasons behind them, flies in the face of innovation.  

What's the harm in trying a different pen colour?  I think many Asian cultures dislike red ink, as it's considered offensive.  Since Asia consistently scores higher than the US in education standards and scores, it's not so radical a concept as it's being made out to be in this thread.   (granted, that's not the only difference in the education standards - but it's a valid point)


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## Smitty37 (Dec 31, 2013)

maxwell_smart007 said:


> The idea that old concepts must be rigidly followed, regardless of the reasons behind them, flies in the face of innovation.
> 
> What's the harm in trying a different pen colour? I think many Asian cultures dislike red ink, as it's considered offensive. Since Asia consistently scores higher than the US in education standards and scores, it's not so radical a concept as it's being made out to be in this thread.  (granted, that's not the only difference in the education standards - but it's a valid point)


 I did not say that trying a different pen color had any harm associated with it.  What I said is: If students think that the pen color used implies something about them (students) it is because we taught them to think that.  I have also said that I believe we (in too many cases) are making things like the color of the ink used and the smiley faces more important to the students/parents than the comments. I think both are relavent to this discussion. 

I have referred to the past because when I was being educated most teachers used red pencil to correct papers, mark grades and make comments on assignments.  If I got an A it was in red, if I got an E it was in red, if the teacher said "excellent paper" it was in red, if the teacher said "not acceptable rewrite" it was in red.  Students knew that everything they saw on their paper was going to be red and it meant nothing other than it was easy to spot what the teacher had added to the paper.  It could have been green, blue, or about any other color (except #2 or 3 pencil color) and accomplished the same thing.  It is not a dedication to red or an opposition to change of color that is affecting my thinking.  It an opposition to the change in attitude that says the color of the comments has become more than just a method to make the comments stand out and easily found it has become more important to many people than the comments themselves.

I am certainly not opposed to to innovation, I made my living and enjoy my retirement because I was a part of the most innovative industry that has ever existed.  But I also recognize that all change is not innovation.


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## JP61 (Dec 31, 2013)

Some teenagers just simply do not like being corrected and the red ink just makes it seem worse. If they would spend more time studying, they would get less red on their papers and hence a higher self esteem.


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## sbell111 (Dec 31, 2013)

It's not just a 'self esteem' thing.  How we perceive the color red is ingrained in us.  Please read the page that I linked earlier.  It will only take a minute of your time.


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## sbwertz (Dec 31, 2013)

sbell111 said:


> A google search turned up this very interesting blog post.  I can't seem to copy and paste big chunks of it as I am on my ipad, but I encourage anyone who is actually interested in this issue to pop over and read it.



The following quote from that blog illustrates what I have been trying to say.

" The idea that grading work should be about  spotting mistakes and correcting errors is a very narrow one. "


This is what my daughter is having to deal with.  Not just that she is not allowed to use red ink, but that somehow it is WRONG to point out errors.  It is not just that she is not supposed to use red ink, but that she is discouraged from indicating errors in her student's writing.


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## sbell111 (Dec 31, 2013)

sbwertz said:


> sbell111 said:
> 
> 
> > A google search turned up this very interesting blog post.  I can't seem to copy and paste big chunks of it as I am on my ipad, but I encourage anyone who is actually interested in this issue to pop over and read it.
> ...



But that isn't what you stated.  If she is being told not to actually correct her students' work, that's a real issue.  If she has simply been told not to use red, as the thread's title and the OP stated, that's not.  I hope that it's not just the impression that you have gotten because she has been asked not to use red.


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## sbwertz (Dec 31, 2013)

No.  We have discussed this in depth.  She is not to use red ink, her corrections are to be couched in "non critical terms," she is told that it is more important that they "express themselves" than to have correct grammar, punctuation, and spelling.  These are HONOR students, about to enter college.


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## sbell111 (Dec 31, 2013)

sbwertz said:


> No.  We have discussed this in depth.  She is not to use red ink, her corrections are to be couched in "non critical terms," she is told that it is more important that they "express themselves" than to have correct grammar, punctuation, and spelling.  These are HONOR students, about to enter college.


I'm thinking that if they are honor students about to go to college, that they are probably pretty set as far as grammar, punctuation, and spelling are concerned.


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## www (Dec 31, 2013)

My wife teaches High school and she asked me to make one for her, they use red ink there. Sometimes I think this world is getting to politically correct.


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## Cmiles1985 (Dec 31, 2013)

My wife and I just removed our fourth grade son from public school to teach him ourselves due to reasons like the OP mentions. When my ten year old son asks "what comes after Thursday?" there is a real issue. The "educators" are forced to instill a culture, not an education, into our children's minds. I recently wrote a very concise letter to the principle, superintendent, and my congressman wondering why the school system was so much more worried about the quality of my child's diet (whether or not he shares or brings a snack for after school) rather than the quality of my child's education. I received a poor response blaming government administration and generalization of needs/wants. While the response I received was accurate, the sense I got was that the "educators" have similar feelings to myself. Why have fear of noncompliance? I'm not saying revolt, but if you feel something is better for your child, class, etc., go for it! 
Some of you may think I'm horrible for this, but when it came to my son doing homework, he was not allowed to leave the table until it was done in reasonable penmanship with all words spelled correctly. He has had to cry it out a few times, but this is what it takes. Educators should not have to fear the students and their parents, but it is an unfortunate reality. I fear the quality of American culture when my kids are grown.

Just remember: every kid deserves to pass and get an award just because they're there. That is the "new" thought. How will this make their work ethic (or lack thereof)? It's bad enough that not many people my age will work hard (especially when "entitled" with a college degree). It's easier to get food stamps and other forms of "benefits."

I apologize for the off-topic rambling, but I strongly feel that things as simple as "hurting a child's self esteem" are the roots of this nation's many current problems.


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## sbell111 (Dec 31, 2013)

I think the problem is more that some parents believe that schools should be a child's sole source of education.  This attitude leaves the school to handle a huge number of kids that are behind from day one.  Every child suffers while the schools do the best to drag those kids up to the bare minimum.

BTW, my four year old knows the days of the week.  She hasn't stepped into a school yet.


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## Cmiles1985 (Dec 31, 2013)

Had "my" son been a part of my life from birth that would likely be the case. He's my stepson, and these are things we continue to work on. The days of the week deal is an example. Mom tends to baby him a lot more since that's the way she was raised. It's a learning curve for her to encourage independence. I'm not making excuses for either, but I can guarantee that with her and I being the sole educators of our child, he will be far better off than with people that follow the rules of the educational system.


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## Smitty37 (Jan 1, 2014)

sbell111 said:


> It's not just a 'self esteem' thing. *How we perceive the color red is ingrained in us.* Please read the page that I linked earlier. It will only take a minute of your time.


 I see people of all ages wearing red clothes, driving red cars, eating red apples and red & green symbolize the joy of Christmas to most people in this country.  It seems to me that it isn't the color red per se.  Trust me, when teachers use a different color, in time that color will get the same treatment as red because it will be associated with criticism.


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## sbell111 (Jan 1, 2014)

Smitty37 said:


> sbell111 said:
> 
> 
> > It's not just a 'self esteem' thing. *How we perceive the color red is ingrained in us.* Please read the page that I linked earlier. It will only take a minute of your time.
> ...


You continue to respond to the issue with your feelings and limited experience.  That's not so useful to these discussions, in my opinion, since our personal experiences are going to differ from that of the kids most affected by this issue.  It's sort of like people who rail against new car safety features with the argument that their parents drove a '62 Rambler and they turned out just fine.  

That's why I posted the link earlier and absolutely begged for you and others to read it.  Unfortunately, you can lead a horse to water...

If you don't want to read what my googling turned up, that's fine.  Do your own research, but please don't continue to discuss the issue out of ignorance because that doesn't bring the discussion forward, at all.


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## SDB777 (Jan 1, 2014)

sbwertz said:


> My daughter is a teacher and I thought I would make her a teacher's pen.  When I asked her about it, though, she told me she was not allowed to use red ink, because it was not good for the students' self esteem to get back a paper covered in red ink!
> 
> Did I mention that she teaches tenth and twelfth grade International Baccalaureate English classes?


 

So what color did you make her teachers pen?



Scott (inquiring minds must know) B


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## sbwertz (Jan 1, 2014)

SDB777 said:


> sbwertz said:
> 
> 
> > My daughter is a teacher and I thought I would make her a teacher's pen.  When I asked her about it, though, she told me she was not allowed to use red ink, because it was not good for the students' self esteem to get back a paper covered in red ink!
> ...




I didn't.  I made her a mulberry and turquoise Le Roi Elegant and a pepper mill.  You can't get the small refills for the teacher's pen in other colors, that I could find, anyway.


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## Smitty37 (Jan 1, 2014)

sbell111 said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
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 I read the link Steve and was less impressed by it that you were.

Perhaps my experience is limited but I had 6 children in public school from 1978 to 1989 and college (both public and private) from 1981 to 1993 and we were active parents and our children were active students.

We did check their work to see what they were doing, we talked to their teachers and administrators.  

We were social friends with several school administrators and teachers and still are in contact with a couple of them although both they and we have moved so we our contact isn't frequent anymore.  

Our children were also in cub scouts, brownies, blue birds, and 4-H and we were active in those things working with children as well.  I coached little league baseball teams, worked with Pop Warner style football, and elementary school basketball.  Both my wife and I were leaders of various 4-H projects for many years...our children were in 4-H from 1973 to 1989. 

We had dozens of children, rich, poor and middle class, visit our home during the summer to swim in our pool and had more house guests than you can imagine during the winter for "over nights". 

We took in Freshair children from NY City for a few weeks for several years.  

We took a foreign exchange student from Mexico for one school year and we had a student spend a semester with us when his parents transferred because of a work move and he wanted to graduate with his class. 

In addition, I have more than one related college course on my transcript. And I'm pretty well read on a lot of subjects including this one.

I suggest we've had more experience with school age children (ranging from babies to College graduates) than most so, while my observations are ad hoc, I am not speaking completely off the cuff. 

Perhaps I should state that the central tenent of my point should be directed at "Why, are we teaching our young people that it matters what color is used to grade their papers."  Or perhaps "Why did we teach the parents of youngsters that red marks on papers were derogatory?'  and the next question is "Why don't we just stop doing that?"


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## sbell111 (Jan 1, 2014)

sbwertz said:


> SDB777 said:
> 
> 
> > sbwertz said:
> ...


Office Depot carries them in nine different colors.  This thread will definitely result in my buying a few green and purple refills as we sell a number of teacher pens just before Christmas and the end of the school year.


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## sbwertz (Jan 1, 2014)

sbell111 said:


> sbwertz said:
> 
> 
> > No.  We have discussed this in depth.  She is not to use red ink, her corrections are to be couched in "non critical terms," she is told that it is more important that they "express themselves" than to have correct grammar, punctuation, and spelling.  These are HONOR students, about to enter college.
> ...



She teaches international baccalaureate sophomore and senior English.  The sophomores' papers are pretty bad.  If she is lucky enough to get them again as seniors, they do a lot better, but certainly not as well as I did as a senior in high school in 1961.  Papers they do at home on the computer are better  because they have spell and grammar checkers.  But papers written in class are still full of spelling and grammar errors, and punctuation is completely erratic.  Commas appear more or less at random, and semicolons don't even exist!  

Their vocabulary is quite good, and they are well-read.  They can analyze and explicate a piece of poetry, or a passage from a play. (They have to do that in the mandatory oral exams.)  But their writing is pretty awful.  Most of them have problems constructing a well crafted thesis statement, let alone a properly organized essay.


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## sbell111 (Jan 1, 2014)

Smitty37 said:


> sbell111 said:
> 
> 
> > Smitty37 said:
> ...


If you had actually read that link, you wouldn't ask those questions because you would know that it isn't the fact that teachers use red ink that makes the color red the problem.

It should also be noted (or probably not) that you appear to still be abusing the term 'ad hoc'.  I should start a thread on this serious abuse of our language.


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## sbell111 (Jan 1, 2014)

sbwertz said:


> sbell111 said:
> 
> 
> > sbwertz said:
> ...


One wonders how they made it into the honors class.  If I were a teacher or parent in that district, I'd be pretty upset.

While it's true that I am completely unimpressed when people go nuts over schools not teaching cursive or teachers not using red ink, underperforming schools really bug me.  I understand the challenge that public schools have in working with fewer dollars and more students and having to deal with kids that start out well behind and/or don't have any interest in learning, when I hear about schools that have honors programs, but aren't even properly preparing those kids for college, it drives me a little bonkers.


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## Smitty37 (Jan 1, 2014)

sbell111 said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > sbell111 said:
> ...


 
Kindly refrain from suggesting that I lied Steve I did read the blog.  I just didn't find it as convincing as you seemed to.

In the context ad hoc is used to mean exactly what you know it was used to mean.

I gave an number of examples that you should have understood were showing that it is not the color red that is the problem.  

Red Delicious Apples are among the most popular varieties found in supermarkets.

I checked a site that listed high school team colors for most of the schools in Nebraska and red was very well represented...red is also included in the team colors of many colleges.

In 2012 red was the 5th most popular color for automobiles according to Forbes.  

That at least suggests that it is not the color red itself but the context, we don't seem to be teaching our children that red is bad, just that red on school work is bad.  Red cars are nice, red bows are nice Christmas decorations, red hearts are lovely Valentines --- but red marks on a school paper tell Johnny that the teacher hates him and that he'll never amount to anything.  That seems to me to be a world of dumb.


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## BayouPenturner (Jan 1, 2014)

In my opinion the Red ink noting my mistakes in school drive me to do better and made them easier to find on my papers.  I grew up in the public schools were the taught and did not worry if the teacher hurt my feelings when they told me I made a mistake.  they wanted their students to do better and excel.  now days my grand kids are too sensitive and wimpy.  if they don't toughen up and learn they will not compete in the world markets.

Our society is too liberal and are loosing in the world overall.  We have dome people in the military who are not deployed for various reasons, over weight, social issues,  I think you should be engaged or get out, our country depends on all our great troops.

Also, Thank You to all our servicemen and women.


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## Cmiles1985 (Jan 1, 2014)

What the red ink thing directly boils down to is that there is no consequence for actions, thus no need to take accountability of your actions. This lifestyle is ingrained in our school-aged children. Then, when they actually get disciplined, they think that they're the victim. This cultural style has run rampant through our country. Look at nearly all politicians and celebrities for examples. What do our kids learn when they are brought up to think they can do no wrong?


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## Smitty37 (Jan 1, 2014)

*Ad Hoc*

One authority gives this definition and while others define it separately for the adjective and adverb use they support that ad hoc used as either an adjective or an adverb has essentially the same meaning.
​ad hoc (æd ˈhɒk)
_adj_, _adv_*1. *for a particular purpose only; *lacking generality or justification*: _an ad hoc decision_; _an ad hoc committee_.

FYI Steve, green is the context in which I used ad hoc....*an ad hoc observation, or to be more specific "my observation is ad hoc*...*"*

​


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## sbell111 (Jan 1, 2014)

Smitty37 said:


> One authority gives this definition and while others define it separately for the adjective and adverb use they support that ad hoc used as either an adjective or an adverb has essentially the same meaning.
> ​ad hoc (æd ˈhɒk)
> _adj_, _adv_*1. *for a particular purpose only; *lacking generality or justification*: _an ad hoc decision_; _an ad hoc committee_.
> 
> ...


that's interesting, because the only way it really worked in your context is the other half of your stated definition, but that's not very flattering to you.


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## sbell111 (Jan 1, 2014)

Cmiles1985 said:


> What the red ink thing directly boils down to is that there is no consequence for actions, thus no need to take accountability of your actions. This lifestyle is ingrained in our school-aged children. Then, when they actually get disciplined, they think that they're the victim. This cultural style has run rampant through our country. Look at nearly all politicians and celebrities for examples. What do our kids learn when they are brought up to think they can do no wrong?



What is the difference in accountability if papers are graded in some other color than red?


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## maxwell_smart007 (Jan 1, 2014)

I think we've bludgeoned this topic enough, don't you think?  10 pages on ink colour is probably plenty!  

Andrew
assistant moderator


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## Smitty37 (Jan 1, 2014)

sbell111 said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > One authority gives this definition and while others define it separately for the adjective and adverb use they support that ad hoc used as either an adjective or an adverb has essentially the same meaning.​
> ...


Regardless of the relationship to my stated definition, you and I both know my use was correct. My error was not the use of ad hoc. It was later, where I erred by calling a noun a verb. 

I might well think that you write things unflattering to you also Steve, including your compulsive making of personal comments when your ideas don't hold water. Can you ever accept when you've been shown to be wrong?


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## maxwell_smart007 (Jan 1, 2014)

That last post just after I posted settles it in my mind - it's become just a bickering thread, and I'm closing it.   

Andrew 
assistant moderator


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