# Site Support



## jeff

Which of the following would you prefer be used to support the site?
(Read the poll comments for more info...)


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## jeff

Here's why I ask... Our bandwidth costs are going through the roof. We are now well over 150GB of transfer per month. This isn't surprising, as we have so much great content, thousands of photos, and all this great discussion. However, it was not something I expected to happen so quickly.

If you've priced bandwidth lately, you know this is not cheap. It far exceeds the basic hosting costs. If the trend continues, the amount of donations coming in will not cover the cost. Actually, our cash flow is currently negative and has been for some time. We don't receive enough donations every month to cover the cost. We have money in the bank from previous donation drives which is being drawn down to meet expenses, and donations do trickle in (thanks to all!!), so we're ok for a while.  In six months, though, we've got a real problem.

So I'm forced to consider other options. The ones's I've considered are noted in the poll, but perhaps you have other ideas. I have absolutely no intention of ever shutting the doors and turning out the lights, but something has to give. We either need more income, or I have to find a way to keep the bandwidth within reasonable limits. Maybe that means limiting the number of photo or article downloads per user per day, or providing certain content only for supporting members.

Let's discuss! I'm anxious to hear your ideas, posted here or by email.


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## Jim15

I think a reasonable membership fee is fine.


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## rtjw

Jeff I dont see how you do it. The Iap has a lot of content. You and I have talked about it alot and the answer is still the same. I dont know. I am lucky that the company that I have hosting TPS does not charge for bandwidth. But just the server space can get high. Getting a dedicated server is 395.00 a month.
Members of both forums have been great with donations. But like you said, they dont come enough to pay everything.
I have thought about membership fees and advertising also. But the bad part of that is that I dont think there are enough members to support a membership fee and the advertising wouldnt help much either because most people dont want a lot of ads on the site. I have one small ad that comes with web wiz guide on there right now. I have to pay to have it removed and I am thinking of doing that soon.
I am lucky right now that I dont have to worry about it. I set aside a certain amount of money that I am willing to put on TPS. It should last a long time if I dont have to go to a dedicated server to soon. 
So in a round about way, I have no answer for you. Of course you already knew that.[]


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## vick

I will admit that I am not good at donateing but will try to be better now that the problem has vome to my attention.  I have tried to do my part by making and organizing tutorials.  Any way you decide is fine with me but I might suggest another alternative is maybe membership fee to view the tutorials content while general posting remaining free.  I assume that the large tutorial files being downloaded adds quite a bit to the bandwith.


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## thetalbott4

A membership fee is reasonable. It's no different than donations, except that each person using the site is donating equally and on a regular basis. Maybe it could be set up so that some things could be used by visitors for free (to get them interested) but full participation would require a small membership fee that coveres the basics of what you incur. If you then forsee any shortfalls, I'm sure putting the word out would spark donation drives to cover the situation.


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## DFM

If you charge a membership fee, then I am outta here.  Perhaps, you can have a fee for posting photos into the photo gallery.

You may also look at cleaning up deleted photos in the gallery.  I have deleted some old pens, but it appears that the photos are still on the server.  That may save some bandwidth.


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## gerryr

I certainly wouldn't have any problem with a membership fee.  What does AAW charge and I don't think they have anything like this at all.  I pay $25/year to belong to my local woodturning club, we have monthly demos, a little mentoring(not much), a decent library and tool grinder that members can borrow.  The amount of information I get here far exceeds the value of what I get from the local club.  Would people really leave if the cost was $10-15?  Two people can barely go to the movies for that anymore and all you get there is a couple hours of entertainment.


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## dubdrvrkev

What about requiring images to be hosted by poster. There are plenty of sites that will host images for free. Or maybe decreasing the amount allowed in albums or the time they are allowed to stay. 
Like Mike, I am bad about donations, I just forget. 
Would it be beneficial to you if I (we) linked our images to another site? I'm not all that net savvy so I don't know what impact that would have. 
Other than that, an acceptably sized header or footer advert can be expected these days.


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## reed43

There is a saying nothing in life is free. I enjoy this forum very much, and as such I will gladly pay a membership fee.


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## Rudy Vey

I am all for a small membership fee, you may loose a few members/users but that always happens when something costs money (TANSTAAFL).
Donations are also always a good way. The question for me is: how much money is needed to keep IAP running now. These numbers could be the base for a membership fee. Increasing costs of the site can be funded by new memberships, i.e. we always have increased our member number in the last two years.


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## DCBluesman

Jeff - I hope you don't mind me diggin out this "old chestnut".  A year or so ago I suggested that each of us set aside a pen per year and that the proceeds, yes the GROSS proceeds go towards keeping the doors open.  We have a ton of members, even if you discount some who may no longer visit.  Of that large number, if each of us donated one pen's worth of sales we would probably cover the costs pretty well.  In that way we don't have to exclude turners who really may not be able to afford "dues".  Also, we allow guests...which should be to the group's benefit.  

In terms of housekeeping, I do believe that non-registered guests shouldn't have downloading privileges.  Also, the DONATE button on the homepage should probably be made more prominent and, if you are using CSS, you could even have it appear on the forum pages.  

What do the rest of you think???


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## rtjw

I agree with Lou. Guests should not have downloading privileges. If you dont want to become a member, then you dont get the benefits.
How do you consider GROSS PROCEEDS though. Is it a slimline or an emperor.


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## dfurlano

Bottom line is that you need to have a reliable source of revenue. Also I would suggest that you really look at what are the the top three or four activities using the most bandwidth and create a plan to reduce the need.  We found on another site that avatars and posted images were the real issue.  So we limited avatars to a very small size and all images that were posted clickable thumbnails.  

I am willing to donate more or pay a membership and I like Lou's suggestion but you need to keep the issue in front of everyone.


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## jeff

> _Originally posted by rtjw_
> <br />...I am lucky that the company that I have hosting TPS does not charge for bandwidth.


Johnny, what does TPS transfer a month? I believe what you say, but it's hard to imagine a host not charging for bandwidth of the magnitude we're running. A generous hosting plan would include 10GB. Maybe they have not caught up with you yet []

I ran an ISP for three years, so I'm very familiar with the cost of bandwidth. One of the issues is that in a first class hosting facility (where this server is) you're paying for redundant, uncapped bandwidth, firewall management, etc.

To respond to the email I received that "a $10 a month package should do what you need", I'll say this. Consider just a plain vanilla T1, the basic business class circuit. 1.544 MBit/sec. That'll transfer about 500GB in a month. Price a T1 from a good provider and you'll see that's anywhere from $500-$2000 a month depending on circuit-miles. So if we're using a third of that capacity, you'd pay $150 at the least. We have uncapped bandwidth up to 45Mbps, and multiple redundant paths to the Internet.

I'd be very interested in hearing about ANY legitimate web host who will tolerate a couple hundred gigs of transfer for $10 a month. That just isn't a business model that works.


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## rtjw

Well, Jeff i think I get a special deal.[]


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## Mudder

> _Originally posted by DFM_
> <br />If you charge a membership fee, then I am outta here.  Perhaps, you can have a fee for posting photos into the photo gallery.
> 
> You may also look at cleaning up deleted photos in the gallery.  I have deleted some old pens, but it appears that the photos are still on the server.  That may save some bandwidth.



A photo on the server eats 0 bandwidth. It's when your browser call for that picture that bandwidth is used.


I think a membership fee is a good idea and I also think setting aside 1 pen's proceeds is a good idea. Maybe a choice? I do agree with Lou that non registered guests should not be allowed to download. Non obtrusive ads would not be a problem for me either but I hope that all other avenues are exhausted before the ads appear.

My vote for the poll would be a button that is not there "all of the above"


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## jeff

> _Originally posted by DFM_
> <br />If you charge a membership fee, then I am outta here.


I can certainly understand that option would be distasteful to some people. It's the very least attractive option as far as I'm concerned.

Even if I have to foot the difference out of my own pocket, I'm never going to be "outta here". This is just way too satisfying and rewarding to me. 

As an aside, I've had three offers to buy this web site, two from commercial outfits and one from an individual. I could have walked away with a sizeable wad of cash, but it's not something I considered for even a moment. I actually don't feel that it's "mine" to sell. This site really belongs to all of you, I'm just flipping some bits and pulling the levers behing the curtain. But it's quite amazing what a site like this with documented visitor traffic is worth []  



> _Originally posted by DFM_
> You may also look at cleaning up deleted photos in the gallery.  I have deleted some old pens, but it appears that the photos are still on the server.  That may save some bandwidth.


Those don't cost bandwidth, just disk, which is dirt cheap.


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## jscola

A membership fee is fine with me. I think this a great & informative site!


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## woodpens

Jeff - You've done more than anyone could ask. I believe you should be reimbursed for all expenses plus something for your time. I personally don't like ads. My suggestion would be for an annual membership fee that covers all costs. There could be a free basic access level and full access for those who support the site. I would like to see it where a benefit auction would be used toward your access fee. For example, if the fee were $50 per year (just an example) I could auction off some pen blanks. If they sell for $50 or more, I am covered. Obviously, administering whatever method you choose is going to require more of your time.

Whatever you choose, I will support you. Nobody should be expected to do this out of their own pocket.


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## DCBluesman

> _Originally posted by rtjw_
> <br />...How do you consider GROSS PROCEEDS though. Is it a slimline or an emperor.


There's no real answer for that, Johnny.  In fact, many folks don't sell their pens at all.  A challenge for them would be to find $20 (a low slimline price) once a year to pay for the value of the site.  

I don't remember all of the statistics that Jeff posted a couple of months ago, but I'm sure we have a few hundred folks that are on the site at least weekly.  Multiply $20 (or more, hopefully) times 300 very active members and you quickly get to $6,000.  $500 a month may not pay all of the bills, but it's a lot more than we're collecting today I'd bet!


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## airrat

Jeff I am willing to pay a membership fee or donate more (which I need to do btw).  If you dont mind and maybe it will help some understand more.  Can you tell us approx how much a month or year this runs.  I don't really have a clue.


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## Ligget

I would gladly pay a membership fee, whatever it costs.
For all the brilliant content that is in the IAP forum and that helps us make better pens after all!!
But I really think under NO circumstances should Jeff ever have to dip into his own pockets!!![:0][]


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## wood-of-1kind

How about a donation of one(1) pen per member and auctioning off the pens right here on the IAP site. I for one would gladly participate and 'talk' with real dollars. I'm also fine with the donation drives that are currently in place, it's a shame that we are unable to generate greater revenue.

How about a proceed from classifieds going back to IAP? I've sold some items here and would be willing to offer a reasonable percentage of my proceeds.

-Peter-[]


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## its_virgil

My thoughts on this is to charge a membership fee and even have levels of membership. I love this place and would pay for membership. Many will and many will not. Those of us who enjoy this site, who get lots of worthwhile info from it and who are givers to the site in both pen knowldedge and $$ will continue to do so. 

I would give a pen for auction, but someone has to auction it, someone has to buy it, and someone has to run it, and someone has to collect the money....mdmbership fees seem like a such a better way. When my kids were in youth soccer and othere sports, I refused to sell the normal stuff they sell to raise money. I would much rather give an equal amount of money that the candy, etc would raise instead of having my kids and me trying to sell the stuff. Same with pens....Just how many pens can we sell? How often....? Membership has its privlidges and those privledges cost $$$$.
Do a good turn daily!
Don


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## Ron in Drums PA

There is a good chance I'm missing something here, so don't shoot me!

http://ipower.com/

250Gig BW per month 10gig HD space for $7.95 a month
500Gig BW per month 15gig HD space for $12.95 a month


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## jeff

Well, I'll contact them. I'm guessing it's not guaranteed, uncapped.


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## dfurlano

Lets shoot Ron anyways...[]


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## rtjw

Ron, the thing about those web hosting plans is that most of them suck. They have their own ways they want your databse to be done, they have their own way to upload files, they have their own way to back up etc. It may sound cheap, but when you are dealing with a lot of information, it just isnt worth it.


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## Ron in Drums PA

I like the idea of a memebership fee, even though I cast my vote for donations

I really think the greatest thing about IAP is the easy access that everybody has to this site. Start charging a membership and the personality of IAP will change. I just not sure if it the change will be for better.


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## jeff

Some notes about our needs... 

The reason you can buy hosting packages so cheaply (not considering bandwidth for a sec...) is because they are shared server environments. It's not unusual for a host to put several hundred sites on one server. 

This is not really much of an issue when most of the sites are serving up static content. However, sites like ours use active scripting, which is an entirely different server load profile. Every time you load a page, hundreds to thousands of lines of code execute to query the database, run back-end logic, check permissions, and so on, ad nauseum. Our site started out in a shared environment, butwe quickly had to move to a dedicated server.  Last month we had almost 1.2 million page views. That's dedicated server territory.

These shared server environments also play tricks with DNS and mail servers. Instead of giving you a dedicated IP address, they use host headers. I won't go into the gory details, but it's just not the best way to do things. 

Then there is the issue of the database. For performance and stability reasons, we use Microsoft SQL Server. Yes, MySQL is free, and we do use it for some things (such as the Y! search databases), but for our purposes, MSSQL is the best choice and just that service is $50 a month. Most shared host environments don't provide this. In fact, the one Ron recommended says this on their web site: "iPower servers do not provide MSSQL (Microsoft SQL) Database capability. We do not anticipate supporting this in the near future."

We also use "server components". These are specialized tools that run on the server and are use by the active scripts to do certain things more efficiently than they could be done otherwise. Things like resizing and manipulating images, generating thumbnails, handling your photo uploads, etc. These things cost money to buy and license yearly, but without them things run a whole lot slower. These are sometimes available on shared plans, but when they are, they're expensive.

Finally, there is tech support. I can pick up the phone 24x7 and talk to our server administrator. These $10 a month joints host so many web sites that they depend on automated systems to create and administer sites, FAQs and knowledge bases to provide tech support, and they are hell to get on the phone.

So while there are other options out there, some of which look good at first, you'll have to trust that I've done my best to balance the cost of our hosting needs with availability, stability, tech support, etc.


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## Woodnknots

Why not charge a fee (maybe a percentage of sale price) for all those that advertise items for sale, whether individual or business?  Obviously group buys should be exempt, because everyone benefits, and it's not for profit, but why should we be able to profit (monitarily) from all Jeff's hard work and not have to give some back to the "Godfather"?  We could do it on the honor system, but it wouldn't be 100% honor system, since the add is there for everyone to see...


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## gerryr

I'm not sure if this would work, but would there be a way to charge for each post?  If there are 1.2 million page views I would think posts must be at least 200,000 per month.  At 1 cent each, that would be $2,000 a month.  Of course, Dario and JimGo might have to take out a loan.[]


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## woodpens

> _Originally posted by gerryr_
> <br />I'm not sure if this would work, but would there be a way to charge for each post?  If there are 1.2 million page views I would think posts must be at least 200,000 per month.  At 1 cent each, that would be $2,000 a month.  Of course, Dario and JimGo might have to take out a loan.[]


Personally, I don't think anything should be done to discourage participation. That would impact the quality of content.


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## jeff

> _Originally posted by airrat_
> <br />If you dont mind and maybe it will help some understand more.  Can you tell us approx how much a month or year this runs.  I don't really have a clue.


Tom - Here's the whole story. The total bill for the dedicated web server, access to the MSSQL database server, and excess bandwidth is approximately $350 a month. I've been drawing $250 a month out of the donations PayPal account. I pay the $100 difference.


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## Jerryconn

I would be willing to pay a reasonable membership fee. I also believe that the classifieds should pay a small percentage or amount for the listings here. Definitely keep the donations coming in. I also agree with others, you should not have to pay for this out of your pocket. There is a large amount of great info. here and I have improved the quality of my pens dramatically by picking up tips/ideas available. It is a great place and I want the flow of info. and ideas to continue, I will do my part to assist with that.


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## jeff

> _Originally posted by gerryr_
> <br />I'm not sure if this would work, but would there be a way to charge for each post?  If there are 1.2 million page views I would think posts must be at least 200,000 per month.  At 1 cent each, that would be $2,000 a month.  Of course, Dario and JimGo might have to take out a loan.[]


There were 8191 posts in April. 

One thing to remember is that while some of the ideas are good, their implementation is difficult. There is no canned mechanism to charge for posts, or ads, or the like. Making that work fairly and smoothly would be a big job.

With very very few exceptions, the "big number" posters have already donated way more than a penny a post. 

Interesting statistics: On an average day: 250 <b>members</b> and 300 <b>unregistered guests</b> visit. Since we started accepting donations, 187 individuals have contributed. Some of those 187 have donated multiple times, some more than a dozen times.

The point is that 187 people (well, 188 if you include me) support this site. I'm not griping about that. Not everyone is in a financial position to donate. The whole purpose of this site is the free and open exchange of ideas and education, and that includes people who can't or choose not to donate.

Great discussion!


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## PenWorks

Well about the only bandwidth I know, is the width of a centerband []

I am all for an annual membership. I like Virgil's idea of level of membership.
Several sites do this for those that help support sites.

This is a great place to hang out, Jeff and the members have made it that way.
It still is a shame, that this place is supported by less than 5% of the membership.


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## Dario

> _Originally posted by woodpens_
> <br />
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Originally posted by gerryr_
> <br />I'm not sure if this would work, but would there be a way to charge for each post?  If there are 1.2 million page views I would think posts must be at least 200,000 per month.  At 1 cent each, that would be $2,000 a month.  Of course, Dario and JimGo might have to take out a loan.[]
> 
> 
> 
> Personally, I don't think anything should be done to discourage participation. That would impact the quality of content.
Click to expand...


Gerry, 

This will be counter productive...before you know it no one will be posting anything "meaty" anymore (not that I do []). 

Anyway, it is a shame that only 188 members donates/support this site! [:0]  I know that some really can't even if they want to, but I can't believe it will be this low percentage wise to the member count.

I am for an annual membership and classifieds fee (or percentage).  Pop-up ads will be the last option for me.


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## Dario

> _Originally posted by DCBluesman_
> <br />I do believe that <b>non-registered guests shouldn't have downloading privileges.  Also, the DONATE button on the homepage should probably be made more prominent</b> and, if you are using CSS, you could even have it appear on the forum pages.
> 
> What do the rest of you think???



I agree with Lou.


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## gerryr

I agree with Lou also.


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## its_virgil

It is the same way for every organization that is financed by voluntary contributions. Less than 10% of the members contribute the dollars needed to support the organization. It's true in most churches as well as similar organizations with which I belong. Everyone who visits here, posts here, downloads from here and uploads to the IAP can afford a computer and the monthly internet charges, a digital camers to take the pictures, and a lathe to turn pens. We all have $$ to buy wood, kits, gold nibs(nothing personal Anthony), and $20 snake skin blanks. I really think we can afford to pay a membership fee. I'll give up one diet coke per day and send in $182.50 for a year.. It's worth it to me. I'm really not trying to step on any toes. But this is just the way it works. 10% foot the bill for the entire 100%. Most of us are willing to pay for all of the other things that we consider important.
Do a good turn daily!
Don
[/quote]
The point is that 187 people (well, 188 if you include me) support this site. I'm not griping about that. Not everyone is in a financial position to donate. The whole purpose of this site is the free and open exchange of ideas and education, and that includes people who can't or choose not to donate.
[/quote]


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## RussFairfield

Jeff needs a steady income rather than the hand to mouth barely staying alive not knowing how next months bills are going to get paid operation that is now the IAP.  A reliable and forcastable income means either access fees or advertising. 

I have always been against any kind of fees for Web site access or posting messages. That would be completely at odds with the goals of the IAP to provide an open access for the education of ALL pencrafters. 

All of this talk about membership fees makes me ask a larger question. Has anyone given any thought to what that entails? Membership fees means a treasury, accounting, and administrative costs. Somebody has to receive the mail, handle the money, and keep the books. We can't expect Jeff to take on that work load for free.

Back in the olden days (2 years ago) we attempted to make the IAP into a virtual organization with members, Directors, Officers, and meetings. We even wrote a set of By-Laws that included the provisions for membership fees should they be required at a later date when the IAP had a larger operating budget. If it didn't get into the By-Laws, we sure talked a lot about it. That effort died in its infancy, and for a lot of reasons that can be avoided should there be a next time.

Is it time to revisit the IAP as a organized effort?? We might even get Lou to run for President again under the right conditions, and a more reasonable possibility for success.[][] 

The only other source, and the easiest way to achieve an income, is through advertisement. Why is everyone so set against advertisements?? We need to face the fact that this site needs sponsors who can provide a steady income to keep it operating. It isn't like there will be ads for virility enhancements or hemorrhoid cures. These will be ads for the same people who we buy our stuff from and whose Web site address are linked in messages on this site every day. The banner ads on WoodCentral aren't intrusive, and they keep the place alive. It seems to me that 10 ads at the $75 or whatever their cost per month would be a simple solution to the problem.

There are now 2 places for advertisements on the IAP site, and they are both available without charge. I would be in favor of the individual ads remaining without cost, but why is the IAP providing free space for commercial advertisements?? As a minimum, there should be a monthly fee per word of commercial advertising. There is a per/word fee for classified ads in the back of the AAW Journal and other woodturning and woodworking magazines. I have to ask why this service is free on this site?? That is another source of income that hasn't been tapped.

There are a lot of ways to achive a steady income that should be exploited before considering an access fee to the IAP site.


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## KingBubbaTruck

I don't have any problems with Advertisements.  Personally, I think that if you did have a fee to join the site, you might see a significant drop off in traffic.

I use Google all the time.  It's a great search engine, and they have a lot of useful, un-obtrusive advertisements...

Heck, I even buy from their advertisers sometimes.

Too tell the truth, I've made a wallet-load of purchases from companies that were either direct advertisers on this site, or recommended by users, since I joined here....

That being said, this thread did raise my awareness of the issue and I did make a donation to help out...


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## jhop

> _Originally posted by jeff_
> <br />
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Originally posted by rtjw_
> [br
> To respond to the email I received that "a $10 a month package should do what you need", I'll say this. Consider just a plain vanilla T1, the basic business class circuit. 1.544 MBit/sec. That'll transfer about 500GB in a month. Price a T1 from a good provider and you'll see that's anywhere from $500-$2000 a month depending on circuit-miles. So if we're using a third of that capacity, you'd pay $150 at the least. We have uncapped bandwidth up to 45Mbps, and multiple redundant paths to the Internet.
> 
> I'd be very interested in hearing about ANY legitimate web host who will tolerate a couple hundred gigs of transfer for $10 a month. That just isn't a business model that works.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> check out oneandone.com   500gb/mo $4.95 with 50 mb storage
Click to expand...


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## Ron in Drums PA

> _Originally posted by RussFairfield_
> The only other source, and the easiest way to achieve an income, is through advertisement. Why is everyone so set against advertisements?? We need to face the fact that this site needs sponsors who can provide a steady income to keep it operating. It isn't like there will be ads for virility enhancements or hemorrhoid cures. These will be ads for the same people who we buy our stuff from and whose Web site address are linked in messages on this site every day. The banner ads on WoodCentral aren't intrusive, and they keep the place alive. It seems to me that 10 ads at the $75 or whatever their cost per month would be a simple solution to the problem.
> 
> There are now 2 places for advertisements on the IAP site, and they are both available without charge. I would be in favor of the individual ads remaining without cost, but why is the IAP providing free space for commercial advertisements?? As a minimum, there should be a monthly fee per word of commercial advertising. There is a per/word fee for classified ads in the back of the AAW Journal and other woodturning and woodworking magazines. I have to ask why this service is free on this site?? That is another source of income that hasn't been tapped.
> 
> There are a lot of ways to achive a steady income that should be exploited before considering an access fee to the IAP site.




Bingo! Give that man a kewpie doll.


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## Daniel

Selling advertising space is my number one favorite idea. without stopping the fund raisers or donations. some info on how the group is financially would go a long way in getting others to donate as well. I think many members never think of it simply because they have no idea of the cost the site generates. I also like dues for members that give them greater access such as a photo album or the ability to view photos or something like that. this way we do not cut new members or the just curious out. but there is an incentive to become a paying member.


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## Deere41h

I have to agree with Russ.  IAP needs a better stream of revenue than can be received from donations.  I fear that memberships would seriously limit the great flow of information we currently have.  If Don is correct and only 10% would join that too becomes a very limiting factor.  With that said I voted for donations but am convinced that that by its self will not support the need of this site.  That really only leaves ads to provide the constant cash stream that is required.  I have been opposed to ads in the past as their nature tends to be overbearing.  But if they can be done discreetly and in  good taste and can help keep this forum alive than I say give it a try.

Maybe IAP should be like NPR and consider a couple of fund raisers a year to keep we members informed of the financial needs.  I know for myself I only donate when asked and was not aware of the costs to run this site.  Perhaps that is a way that donations might bring in a more constant revenue stream.


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## JimGo

The proble with Russ's suggestion is where to draw the line between individuals and companies.  For example, I can think of at least four members, all of whom regularly post pens they've made and contribute to the various forums, who also regularly sell blanks; are they companies or individuals?  It's going to be tough to enforce that line between individual and corporate advertisement, and you're likely to annoy those who are paying to advertise simiar goods when others can advertise for free.  In that case, you drive away the source of revenue, and drive away access to good sales, discounts, etc.  If we charge for ads in one forum, then we really should charge for ads in all forums, and I think most will agree that charging in the individual classifieds will really limit how much we're able to buy/sell/trade with each other.  Banner ads are a better idea, and I have no real objection to them.

That being said, my personal preference is for a membership fee.  It's worth AT LEAST $20 a year to be able to pick the brains of people like you Russ, as well as Anthony, Don, Lou, Bruce, Alice, Bev, Paul, Fred, and many, many others, especially about relatively esoteric topics.  My proposed solution is that we leave the forums open to the public to read, except the library and archives, that we charge for membership, and that we require (as we currently do) that you become a member if you want to post in the forums.

Oh, and Gerry, there are actually a few members who have had their post counts reset, and I think they'd be payin' even more than Dario and me!!! []


----------



## Randy_

> _Originally posted by JimGo_
> <br />.....My proposed solution is that we leave the forums open to the public to read, except the library and archives, that we charge for membership, and that we require (as we currently do) that you become a member if you want to post in the forums.....



Only thing I would add to Jim's proposal is that photos should also be off limits to non-members.  From what Jeff says, apparently they are a significant contributor to the band width costs and are a feature of the site that, presumably, are of interest to many people.

If I understood Jeff's figures correctly, if we get a dollar a month from the folks who are currently posting and some additional income from the lurkers who wish to preserve their ability to access the archive, library and photo gallery, that should cover most if not all of the current operating budget??  Add in a little income from ads and classified and the balance sheet should be in pretty good shape.

One thing that hasn't been fully discussed is that taking in money is going to cost money.  Unless IAP is set up as a corp or a non-profit business, all of the fees are going to end up on Jeff's 1040 on April 15th.        

I don't know what the final answer is going to be; but whatever it is, it isn't going to be simple!!


----------



## ldimick

> _Originally posted by RussFairfield_
> <br />
> All of this talk about membership fees makes me ask a larger question. Has anyone given any thought to what that entails? Membership fees means a treasury, accounting, and administrative costs. Somebody has to receive the mail, handle the money, and keep the books. We can't expect Jeff to take on that work load for free.



I know of one group where the webmaster is paid $500 per month and does less than Jeff currently does.

Then there is the issue of disagreements - If I don't like a policy and make a suggestion to change it is there a vote for reformation, and if so, is it based upon dollar contribution like a a stockholder?

I know it sounds silly but it does happen.

I don't mind a set fee for membership - but I think it would be a bad idea because we would drive people away. The stated goal is to share information and to promote our passion.

I think that the IAP should solicit contributions in the form of pledges and then ask for the money. I try to give when I know of a need but I am not always aware of a need.

I also would not mind if ONE of the major sellers of kits or blanks were to be allowed to have a single ad on the home page that all must enter per month. $350 per month is a cheap cost for reaching a focused audience that has the buying power that this group holds. The downside is that we may lose our objectivity about vendors or kits. 

Perhaps one of the big vendors could offer a bulk buy of several kits at the 25-35% off level and then sell them to the members at the 20% level. Donate the difference to the IAP.


----------



## rtjw

> _Originally posted by ldimick_
> <br />
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Originally posted by RussFairfield_
> <br />
> All of this talk about membership fees makes me ask a larger question. Has anyone given any thought to what that entails? Membership fees means a treasury, accounting, and administrative costs. Somebody has to receive the mail, handle the money, and keep the books. We can't expect Jeff to take on that work load for free.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I know of one group where the webmaster is paid $500 per month and does less than Jeff currently does.
> 
> Then there is the issue of disagreements - If I don't like a policy and make a suggestion to change it is there a vote for reformation, and if so, is it based upon dollar contribution like a a stockholder?
> 
> I know it sounds silly but it does happen.
> 
> I don't mind a set fee for membership - but I think it would be a bad idea because we would drive people away. The stated goal is to share information and to promote our passion.
> 
> I think that the IAP should solicit contributions in the form of pledges and then ask for the money. I try to give when I know of a need but I am not always aware of a need.
> 
> I also would not mind if ONE of the major sellers of kits or blanks were to be allowed to have a single ad on the home page that all must enter per month. $350 per month is a cheap cost for reaching a focused audience that has the buying power that this group holds. The downside is that we may lose our objectivity about vendors or kits.
> 
> Perhaps one of the big vendors could offer a bulk buy of several kits at the 25-35% off level and then sell them to the members at the 20% level. Donate the difference to the IAP.
Click to expand...


Some good opinions. I have heard of at least one story of memberships that were sold and then a member got kicked off and sued the site. It wont be the members of IAP that get sued, it will be jeff.

Also, who do you select to have the ad. It would drive away sellers if you limited who can advertise.

Everyone has brought up ideas that are really good. But the main thing that everyone is missing is that eveyone is throwing something more on Jeff. Trust me it takes a lot to run the site. Whether you agree or disagree with me about TPS. I am still a member here and still support the site. But do we want to add more responsibilities to Jeff, like, maiking sure who can view the photos and who cant, membership fees and when they are due, advertisers ads, etc, etc, etc, etc,. 

Again Jeff, the answer is who knows.


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## blacksmith2461

I have  no problem with an annual fee . but how will it affect jeff as far as tax goes,and will jeff be able to handle this extra work [xx(] I presume jeff would like to make a pen on the odd ocasion [] and also how would fees affect members not in the US . donating pens for sale is not a bad idea , but then we are back in the same boat as fees will jeff have to handle the sale of the pens. and will non US members be able to send a pen to the USA . at least with an annual fee everybody knows where they stand . this is a great site for us in AUS it would be a crime to see it close decause of the lack of finances []


----------



## Ron in Drums PA

> _Originally posted by JimGo_The proble with Russ's suggestion is where to draw the line between individuals and companies. For example, I can think of at least four members, all of whom regularly post pens they've made and contribute to the various forums, who also regularly sell blanks; are they companies or individuals?



That would be simple. Individuals can only post a classified once a month. If an individual is selling pen/bowl blanks on a regular basis, it's a business. If an individual is selling a pen/bowl blank on a one time basis because he has more he can use it is individual sale.


----------



## jeff

A few comments based on the discussion so far...

There are tax implications for every dollar collected in donations. I run the donations through my S-Corp, which of course generates a personal tax liability for me. Fortunately (or unfortunately!) for the last couple years that Corp has posted a loss, so the tax consequences of donations have been minimal.

18 months ago when we were heading toward becoming a non-profit, and more recently, I've looked into the issues of becoming a 503C organization. It's something I'll work toward. Not impossible, but not trivial either.

I'm happy to see that the gist of the discussion pretty well matches my own thoughts. I hate the thought of a membership fee. It squashes the free and open flow of information and education. As others have noted, If we're an open group, 10% of the membership will provide support. If membership costs money, we'll be 10% the size we are now. 

Some members-only content is a possibility. Even though it's free, requiring membership might motivate some to actually become participants and get motivated to support the site. Maybe viewing more than a couple pages of the photo album, or getting to the article archive will require membership. I'll conduct a poll before I do that.

Limited, tasteful, targeted advertising is a possibility. There are several places this could work... a spot on the front page, here and there on the forum pages, and maybe even a text link in subscription emails. I don't know how many of you shop at Amazon or some of the other on-line mega joints, but referral links pay too. That worked pretty well on another site I ran. One thing that will never happen the sale of member lists. Guaranteed.

I have a feeling that donations would significantly drop off if there was revenue coming in from advertisement. As long as the ad revenue was sufficient to cover costs, that's OK, but if that doesn't happen, donations would still be needed. I think I'd begin publishing a financial statement so everyone knows exactly where we stand.

I kind of like the classified proposals for businesses. I'd define a business as having employees, or more than $10,000 annual revenue, or reselling purchased goods. The last thing I want to do is shut off our friends who sell us great blanks on the cheap, but for the larger organizations who can afford it, maybe a small charge is the way to go.

Thanks again for all the great ideas.


----------



## jeff

> _Originally posted by ldimick_
> <br />I know of one group where the webmaster is paid $500 per month and does less than Jeff currently does.


[:0] I'm happy with the occasional box of blanks that shows up in my mailbox from time to time, the nice emails I get almost every day, and the great friends I've made here.


----------



## mick

I will echo several others here and say that I'd be willing to donate some of my profits from sales back to this site. After all without the IAP I wouldn't be making the quality of pens I am now. I'm like Don, I love this site and am a daily viewer and poster. I've learned so much this past year and am always amazed at the quality of work as well as the inovations some of you come up with. I did a very small show yesterday and only sold two perfume pens ....but I'm going to go ahead and send Jeff the proceeds from one of them and in the future I'll donate from other shows as I can. I challenge other penturners here to do the same, if able. We all know the time and costs we have in any given pen and IMHO it doesn't hurt me, or any of us to donate at least one of them periodically. So come on folks all of you who do shows, think about what this site means to you and what you've learned here and send a little of your profits Jeff's way. Let's help him support this site and keep spreading the knowledge!!!!!


----------



## airrat

wow Jeff I didnt know it cost that much a month.  If the advertisments were reguarding woodworking I am all for it.  I am always looking for a sale or a deal.  I have not donated in a few months its time to do it again.  Sorry I didnt know it was so much.

This site provides alot of valuable information.  Maybe you can put something on the home page showing how much is needed to run the site.


----------



## airrat

My wife is a member of a site that allows members to be sponsors for the month and promote something.  Not sure if that is an idea that works for advertisement.  It will not cover the entire cost but would help.


----------



## Blind_Squirrel

How about a hybrid approach?  Make the front page and active topics free.  For a nominal membership fee have access to things like the archived (past years) articles and the search function.

This would allow people to come onboard and get a good look to see what things are like.  If they decide to become serious about turning pens and want to learn more they can help promote this great site.


----------



## Jim Boyd

How about subscriptions? I donate here but only when reminded, like now[] But if I had the ability to subscribe with a paypal payment once a month I would not feel bad about having to be reminded. Some of us have CRS bad[] This is what I do at BT3Central and even though I'm not a rabid pen builder as some of you guys, I'm logged on here at least 4 times a day[8D]


----------



## rtjw

Jeff, I was thinking about this today and remembered that this is one of the reasons why everyone should support The Penturners Almanac. I have said already that the profits from the sale of the almanac will be split between the IAP and The Pen Shop. Hopefully that will help both sites out.

Okay, I am finished with my plug. BTW Jeff, we need to finish the website so we can start taking subscriptions.


----------



## pete00

My late two cents worth.
I would pay for membership if so decided.

A couple of suggestions i agree with, limit access for non members.
Sell advertising space. Charge for classified ads, much like a newspaper. 

A couple times a year we promote a fund/donation raiser for IAP.
Mabey IAP could work a deal with a vendor(s) to sponser a group buy, IAP get a % of sales.

We need to be reminded to donate. Otherwise we all get caught up in our daily lives. Then we think Jeff is fine and running the site from Bermuda sipping cool ones.[][]

pete


----------



## DCBluesman

> _Originally posted by rtjw_
> <br />Jeff, I was thinking about this today and remembered that this is one of the reasons why everyone should support The Penturners Almanac. I have said already that the profits from the sale of the almanac will be split between the IAP and The Pen Shop. Hopefully that will help both sites out.
> 
> Okay, I am finished with my plug. BTW Jeff, we need to finish the website so we can start taking subscriptions.


This belongs in the classifieds!


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## rtjw

Lou, no it doesnt. It belongs here because we  are talking about ways to support the site. I bet myself you would be the one to say something negative about that post. I was right.


----------



## thewishman

Congratulations to the donors who already are contributing over 70% of the costs of running the IAP website. The rest of the members and guests owe you many thanks. Thank you Jeff and those who have given money and support to this site.


The topic is Site Support. It takes about $350 per month to pay the bills, for a total of $4200 per year at current levels. The issue is how to get the $4200 - not "so-and-so should have to pay for ads" or "some content should be restricted to supporters" or "it's not fair that just 5-10% contribute."(Besides, memberships, ad fees and the like add tremendously to administrator responsibilities.) The issue is how to get the $4200. 

A counter, prominently displayed on the homepage and/or the discussion page, with the caption "THE IAP NEEDS $XXXX.XX TO CONTINUE FOR THE NEXT 12 MONTHS" (or two months, or whatever) with the donation button right below. Everyone will know what is needed, and those who didn't previously think about the costs will be reminded. The only work, beyond setting up the counter, is updating the tally.

(I'm sure I saw the counter idea in a previous post, but I couldn't find it again. I apologize to the poster.)

Jeff, you have established a great fun and educational forum. I have been coming here at least daily for a few months and I never noticed any mention of the need for monetary support except for the tiny PayPal support button. I doubt that many people ever thought about the money that was required to keep the doors open. Thanks for letting me (us?) know that more was needed.


----------



## Johnathan

The amount of information, useful tips, and friendships I have made here beats any amount I've ever spent on a yearly magazine. I've tried to support where I can and have no problem paying a monthly fee. I would leave the information for everyone to use, with paying members able to post. What you offer here is so worth it! Anyone that has been here for any amount of time will know that they have stumbled upon a jewel worth every penny of a membership fee. You might just create an icon next to the names of paying members, that should put some pressure on those that are not helping out. Come on People!!![:0][8D]


----------



## Jerryconn

I have a possible idea about the classifieds for both  individual and business.  They add $1 to their prices for each purchase (i.e. you buy $20 worth of blanks the total sell is $21) with the $1 going the the IAP site.  I realize that there is no way to monitor this but from what I have seen of members on this site the chances of this being takem advantage of would be small. Like I said earlier, I have only been here about a month but what I have learned here has advanced my abilty 10 fold. My donation has also been sent. And thanks to all that share and the effort that is made by Jeff and others.


----------



## Jim15

I have only been here a matter of months and I just didn't realize how much it takes for Jeff to do this. Now that I know I am willing to do what is necessary to keep the site going, and at no money out of Jeff's pocket. I will donate, pay monthly fees, look at advertising etc. This site is a real treasure for a person like me. Learning from experts and people who really know what they are doing is invaluable to me.

Thank you,
jim


----------



## Johnathan

Another comment is that many have the IAP "Active Topics" page on their "favorites" section of their computer. So, many don't look at the front page, and don't see the donate button, or the "Behind the Lathe" article lol. I think this reminder should be placed at the top of every page right under the logo. 

I think this site should be run by member donations alone. Advertising is good but this site is not costing that much. The members should be supporting it. 

I agree that classifieds should have a payment along with it, not much, but something. You would never expect to get free classified space anywhere else. []

I do think there needs to be some type of reward for those working hard to do something for IAP. Possibly limit the posts per day of non payers or no posts at all.


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## Dario

Okay I'll budge on the advertisement issue.  The posts are very enlightening/educational.  I now believe it is alsoa  good idea IF done in good taste.  Don't want all pages to be runned over by advertisement []

Maybe put another star system for the donors?  Similar to the post count star system.  Maybe it will encourage others to donate more []


----------



## JimGo

I really like the star idea Dario, especially if it couldn't be hidden.


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## wade

Just a thought, but how about having a fund rasing pen auction?  You could have everyone who want's to donate make a pen and send it to whomever, then, once the pens are received, you could put each of them up on ebay and auction them off.  It could be a nice fund raiser.

I don't know if this is an acceptable idea, but hey, I thought it might be worth a suggestion.

Wade in MN


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## wayneis

I've been giving this quite a bit of thought and I believe that the adds could stay basicly with what we already have in a way.  Any one who advertises in the Business section would pay a fee for that right.  Anyone who advertises on the Individual section should pay a smaller fee.  I also think that anyone who places ads on a steady basis should place those in the business section.  This would in my opinion place the least amount of work on Jeff because we already have those areas set up, all he would have to do is lock them so that no one can post ads until they pay.  This way we would not have ads all over the site and no one would have to spend the time to create anything new or spend the time making up fancy ads.  In my opinion, the individual section should only be for someone who has an occasional sale, like some one who desides he/she has extra kits or kits they don't want or need any more.  Also for those once in a while blank sales when someone happens to purchase a board for themselves and has a few extra blanks that they want to get rid of.

In a way I have a problem with memberships, to me that is like making the teacher pay to teach.  What makes this site great is all the help that everyone gives.  The articles, the photos, the questions that we answer are all what makes this site what it is.  If you stop and think of all the people and Companies that make money from us who have in the past been allowed to advertise for free, well to me its just wrong if Jeff has to pay to build and update the site, that we have to pay to help and teach and all of these individuals and Companies continue to make money from us without putting any back in to the site.

Just my opinion,

Wayne


----------



## Bev Polmanteer

Well, I guess it's better late than never!  I am in favor of membership, advertising, donations, and anything else that will keep Jeff from having to foot ANY of the bill.  Goodness nows he does enough work on the site without having to put $$ into it also!  You know, sometimes it takes something like this to really open the eyes of us that just take some things for granted. Yes, I have donated but not nearly as much as I have received in friendship, knowledge and entertainment! Jeff, may God lead you in the proper direction to take, I'll be praying for it and you!


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## chitswood

"I hate the thought of a membership fee. It squashes the free and open flow of information and education. As others have noted, If we're an open group, 10% of the membership will provide support. If membership costs money, we'll be 10% the size we are now."

Exaclty, and the problem with a premium membership is I can't think of anything to offer that shouldn't already be free.

I have made ample use of the business classifieds. But when I joined, if I had seen a listing fee, I would've avoided it like the plague.

Now that I've interacted with you guys, sold stuff, and seen the value of this site, I'll be happy to donate whole truckloads of wood. -no kidding

I'm afraid donating money directly is something I'll avoid, I get killer deals on the wood we buy in bulk, so thats how I can help in the biggest way, I know my dollar can make more money for this site if I spend it on wood first. 


Offer advertisement on this site, "chitswood" may be a buyer. As long as the site is still here and free, I'm a happy goober. 
We advertise our woods in the classifieds don't we? Why is anyone against a business advertising for pay?

I think the idea of a pen donation is cool, but we need to find out how to sell them all.

MOST importantly should be the donations, LET US KNOW HOW MUCH YOU NEED SO WE CAN HELP, a counter on the main page or at the beginning of all pages is fine, put it everywhere so everyone can see it.

If this site has enough devoted pen turners, the members can support it. 
We have to love the site to want to help though, so whatever attracts us, keep it there. 
Fees our gonna hurt, it'll defeat the purpose of this site. 

What are the possibilities of Jeff (or one/a few of us) running a site specifically for us to sell our wares? 
Like a community site that people go to for buying pens. 
Most of us here aren't interested in a pen, but if we could get a site that people go shopping on, donating pens to jeff can be a big boom for support, especially if it turns out like this site.

Keep up the good work Jeff, let us know what you want need.

-Darick


----------



## alamocdc

Jeff, I've only been involved with IAP for a little over a year. In that time I've made a few donations, but probably not as much as I could have. Would I still belong to IAP if you charged for membership? Absolutely! The amount of information gleaned from this site is worth every penny it would take. Am I in favor of more generosity from myself and others? Most definitely. Would I take offense or be upset at paid advertisers? Only if they were pop-ups and could bypass my pop-up protection. Would that cause me to leave the IAP? Certainly not!

Bottom line - You run the show, so you tell us what you want or need to do and I'll support it. Sorry, but you're stuck with me; like it or not.[]


----------



## Pipes

I voted for donations BUT I think a fee would be fine also with donations also what ever it takes to keep us up and running Ima a NEWBIE here BUT I LOVE this Forum and the folks here and have donated a little since I been here and be glad to do what ever I can !! Thou I think dealers outa pay to advertise IMHO only now [:I]
specialy BIG ones ...


----------



## guts

Jeff,i'm like lots of folks on here, have no idea what the buisines end of operating something like would be,i have not donated anything and i apolize for that,don't use pay pal but i think the (pay your dues is probably the best thing to do)i don't sell pens i like to give them away but whatever you decide will work for me,all that matters is this site does not go away,thanks much for the effort.


----------



## Dario

> _Originally posted by guts_
> <br />Jeff,i'm like lots of folks on here, have no idea what the buisines end of operating something like would be,i have not donated anything and i apolize for that,don't use pay pal but i think the (pay your dues is probably the best thing to do)i don't sell pens i like to give them away but whatever you decide will work for me,all that matters is this site does not go away,thanks much for the effort.



OR...you can join the RAFFLE [:I][]


----------



## DocStram

Jeff
I only joined IAP a couple of months ago. I apologize for repeating what's already been said, but, I had like zero of an idea about IAP's financial situation. It just never occured to me how expensive it is to run this place. Oh sure, I saw the ads for donations and raffles, but I thought those things were just to give you a little extra "pin" money.  For the sake of brevity, here are my suggestions:

A. Unless you spell it out for us, we're not going to be aware of   IAP's financial needs.

B. The dollar amount of knowledge that I have gained from IAP members far surpasses anything close to what I have paid for Penturning books and videos.

C. As a last ditch effort to save IAP, I would be fine with paying a membership fee. But, I bet that almost everybody here first did a "fly-by" before joining. If you have to resort to a membership fee there needs to be levels of membership so that first timers have a chance to get addicted before being asked to pay up.

D. There is definitely an untapped source of revenue in the businesses that advertise here. "Word of mouth" from the members carries a whole lot of weight at IAP. If somebody says, "Hey, I found a great deal on bla bla bla" then off we go to check out the deal. Plus, businesses like Ryan's, Nils', Darrick's, even Andrea's and others have the luxury of us being a focus group for their penmaking supplies. We should capitalize on their profiting from IAP. Just think about how much moola is generated from our group buys! I'm for unobtrusive advertising if it keeps IAP afloat.

E. Finally, please consider the idea of making IAP a nonprofit corporation. A huge advantage would be our donations becoming legitimate tax deductions.

F. As for businesses listing classified ads ..... we should remember that in addition to a listing fee, ebay charges a commission of something like 5.25% ... why don't we?  I think we should continue to encourage individuals to list free or at least donate a buck or two.

G. I like the idea of auctioning a pen a month. I have a feeling that the artisans here don't have a clue as to how much we admire their (each other's) work. 

Finally, now that I know our financial situation, I'm going to step up to the place and start helping out financially.
One of the great things about IAP is that we all have a "seat at the table" when it comes to expressing our ideas ... even us rookies.

Best wishes to all.
DocStram


----------



## Dario

> _Originally posted by DocStram_
> <br />Jeff
> I only joined IAP a couple of months ago. I apologize for repeating what's already been said, but, I had like zero of an idea about IAP's financial situation. It just never occured to me how expensive it is to run this place. Oh sure, I saw the ads for donations and raffles, but I thought those things were just to give you a little extra "pin" money.  For the sake of brevity, here are my suggestions:
> 
> A. Unless you spell it out for us, we're not going to be aware of   IAP's financial needs.
> 
> B. The dollar amount of knowledge that I have gained from IAP members far surpasses anything close to what I have paid for Penturning books and videos.
> 
> C. As a last ditch effort to save IAP, I would be fine with paying a membership fee. But, I bet that almost everybody here first did a "fly-by" before joining. If you have to resort to a membership fee there needs to be levels of membership so that first timers have a chance to get addicted before being asked to pay up.
> 
> D. There is definitely an untapped source of revenue in the businesses that advertise here. "Word of mouth" from the members carries a whole lot of weight at IAP. If somebody says, "Hey, I found a great deal on bla bla bla" then off we go to check out the deal. Plus, businesses like Ryan's, Nils', Darrick's, even Andrea's and others have the luxury of us being a focus group for their penmaking supplies. We should capitalize on their profiting from IAP. Just think about how much moola is generated from our group buys! I'm for unobtrusive advertising if it keeps IAP afloat.
> 
> E. Finally, please consider the idea of making IAP a nonprofit corporation. A huge advantage would be our donations becoming legitimate tax deductions.
> 
> F. As for businesses listing classified ads ..... we should remember that in addition to a listing fee, ebay charges a commission of something like 5.25% ... why don't we?  I think we should continue to encourage individuals to list free or at least donate a buck or two.
> 
> G. I like the idea of auctioning a pen a month. I have a feeling that the artisans here don't have a clue as to how much we admire their (each other's) work.
> 
> Finally, now that I know our financial situation, I'm going to step up to the place and start helping out financially.
> <b>One of the great things about IAP is that we all have a "seat at the table" when it comes to expressing our ideas ... even us rookies.</b>
> 
> Best wishes to all.
> DocStram



Al,

Well said.  

I specifically like the last sentence [^].


----------



## OSCAR15

> _Originally posted by jeff_
> <br />
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Originally posted by gerryr_
> <br />I'm not sure if this would work, but would there be a way to charge for each post?  If there are 1.2 million page views I would think posts must be at least 200,000 per month.  At 1 cent each, that would be $2,000 a month.  Of course, Dario and JimGo might have totake out a loan.[]
> 
> 
> 
> There were 8191 posts in April.
> 
> One thing to remember is that while some of the ideas are good, their implementation is difficult. There is no canned mechanism to charge for posts, or ads, or the like. Making that work fairly and smoothly would be a big job.
> 
> With very very few exceptions, the "big number" posters have already donated way more than a penny a post.
> 
> Interesting statistics: On an average day: 250 <b>members</b> and 300 <b>unregistered guests</b> visit. Since we started accepting donations, 187 individuals have contributed. Some of those 187 have donated multiple times, some more than a dozen times.
> 
> The point is that 187 people (well, 188 if you include me) support this site. I'm not griping about that. Not everyone is in a financial position to donate. The whole purpose of this site is the free and open exchange of ideas and education, and that includes people who can't or choose not to donate.
> 
> Great discussion!
Click to expand...




Jeff:  This is a dilema indeed.  Many good ideas have been posted.  First off, I oppose ads from commercial interests. This forum is for turners to share info.  While I applaud what you have done, and your wish to keep  dues or donations on a voluntary basis, you should not have to foot the costs. Here is my two cents worth (for what thats worth): 
<h1><center>Membership Dues</center></h1> 
1 ) If you can afford to buy a lathe, pen kits, blanks etc, you can certainly afford an annual member fee. The sharing of info here far exceeds the info obtainable in books and other medium. Rather than the "authors" way of doing something, you have a multitude of opinions, comments, critiques  etc. We have a large membership.  Even a small fee from each, say 10-15 bucks a year would provide enough to keep the site afloat. <b>Pennies a day ! </b> This is cheaper than one book or one video per year. We could still accept donations in addition.  
2 ) For those that cannot afford a contribution, permit them site access, but limit  those features which consume a lot of bandwidth.
They can still take advantage of this great site, however, on a lesser 
level.
3 ) A couple of folks have suggested donating proceeds from a pen <b>they</b> sell. One poster asked "a slimline or emperor". _ How about donating a pen to IAP to be sold at auction?  It could be done from E-bay.  This would not only raise cash, but provide <b>FREE advertising for the IAP website</b> as well ! _
4 ) Members selling through classifieds should pay a small percentage fee. That is certainly NOT unreasonable, as they would pay to post their ad in a local newspaper. Or they can pay a set fee for posting ads on IAP.[8D]
5 ) I have posed questions on this forum as to recommendations on equipment, for example, a cheap way to press pens. The responses I received (DeStaCo clamp or Harbor Freight Arbor Press) provided cheaper options. The dollar amount this <b>ONE</b> suggestion saved for me would <b>MORE</b> than cover a modest membership fee. This is just one example. As for those that say "I am outta here" I doubt very much that they are contributing information to the membership anyways. I say let them be "outta here". If they cannot appreciate the wonderful resource they have here, let them try to find it elsewhere.
6 ) Putting commercial ads here will definately have a negative impact on what this site has achieved. For one thing, no one can give an honest opinion about a product paying to advertise.  It would certainly not please a paying sponsor to have their product described as junk. Not to mention that it cheapens the overall forum. Any solution at all is preferential to ADS! 

Jeff: Keep up the great job. You have all the support you need right here!


----------



## epson

Jeff,
I voted for donations, but I would be very happy to pay a membership fee for this site to ensure its health.


----------



## Randy_

> _Originally posted by OSCAR15_
> <br />.....1 ) If you can afford to buy a lathe, pen kits, blanks etc, you can certainly afford an annual member fee......
> 
> 2 ) For those that cannot afford a contribution, permit them site access, but limit  those features which consume a lot of bandwidth.
> They can still take advantage of this great site, however, on a lesser level.....



As to #1:  not to mention the expensive computer system and monthly access fees to the Internet.  To repeat an earlier comment, give up one Coke per day(or half a beer) and you would have it covered.  $12 memberships from the 350 posting members would generate $4200 per year!!!

As to #2:  Sounds like a perfectly logical and fair suggestion to me!!


And a few thoughts about implementation....

1.  Give one free month of full access for new folks so they can decide what to do.  You don't wan to scare off a bunch of new folks by insisting on a membership up front.

2.  Prorate the first year's membership to an annual renewal date.  Having a few renewals every month may seem more convenient; but in actual fact, it is a real pain!!  DAMHIK

3.  It occurs to me that software may not be available to keep up with memberships, renewals, limited access etc.  Anyone out there willing to write some code if Jeff decides to go this route and needs/wants some help??


----------



## chitswood

As long as the members will donate enought to the site to keep it running, there is no need to change the spirit of the site through admission fees.

Just let us know what you need Jeff!


----------



## RussFairfield

It makes me feel good to know that nobody wants to see a convenient link to Bill Baumbeck, Ryan, me, Craft Supplies, Berea, or the several other folks who would be buying the advertising space to provide this site with a steady income.[][}]


----------



## blodal

I voted for donations, but would not object to dues if that is what it takes. I am new the this site and pen turning, and have thoroughly enjoyed it. I have learned a tremendous amount in a very short time. 

There have been a lot of very good suggestions, but some would lead to an administrative burden. Someone mentioned software to track members. The billing and collection of payments could be quite an effort. My thinking is, if donations will work, and maybe classified fees and some other types of charges, you will keep the admin efforts and costs down.

I agree with the others, whatever it takes to keep this site going, I will support.

Thanks for what you do!


----------



## chitswood

Yup[]


----------



## DocStram

> _Originally posted by RussFairfield_
> <br />It makes me feel good to know that nobody wants to see a convenient link to Bill Baumbeck, Ryan, me, Craft Supplies, Berea, or the several other folks who would be buying the advertising space to provide this site with a steady income.[][}]



Russ,
With the utmost respect to you, please note that quite a few of these posts are in support of advertising (which would probably, of course, include links). On the other hand, I think you would have to agree that IAP members show a significant amount of $$$upport, in the way of steady income, for those same businesses.  All one needs to do is take a quick look at the Group Purchases Forum to see what I mean.


----------



## TexasJohn

I messed up and checked off "Donation" before I gave it too much thought. I really think an annual fee would be much better. If you do it on a monthly basis it would be too difficult to keep track of. Like others have stated, with a set fee (or whatever you want to call it) everyone would be contributing the same amount and it would be equal for all. I have not read all the post on this string but this is IMHO.


----------



## OSCAR15

> _Originally posted by RussFairfield_
> <br />It makes me feel good to know that nobody wants to see a convenient link to Bill Baumbeck, Ryan, me, Craft Supplies, Berea, or the several other folks who would be buying the advertising space to provide this site with a steady income.[][}]


Russ...It is NOT the "convenient links" I find objectionable. I support these firms with every purchase I make to them. LINKS are fine!  I feel that accepting paid advertisement will change the forum for the worst.
I think that it will act to censor comments about specific companies and/or products.  How can the membership give candid and truthful comments? As to Randy's idea of implementation, I agree. It will be difficult. Software may be needed to implement this.  AS I SAID AT THE START OF MY ORIGINAL POST:  This is indeed a difficult situation.  There are no easy answers.  What I cannnot understand however, is people that use and benefit from this site <b>(SOME EVEN USE THE IAP LOGO ON THEIR SITES TO PROMOTE SALES)</b>, moanin and groanin over ( a minimal ) annual fee.  A couple of cents a day is a small price to pay!  If you   are able to screw up ONE LESS pen from the info you get here, it is well worth it!  
I belong to another web forum (free) but paid users there  get another URL (more features)and a password to access it. They charge 10 bucks a year, and I gladly paid it.  It offers a wealth of info. When you fill out the form with credit card info, it sends a reply e-mail with the "paid" url and password.
I believe they set this up as an auto-reply once credit card is accepted. <b> The sitemaster claims to have 60,000 + paid members. Do the math ! And cost to subscribers is a MERE .83 cents a month. I guess some folks here will say they are outta here cause of this high expense.  </b>

<b>P.S.  along with ads, do you want spyware, spam, and pop-ups too?  That usually  is the price you pay for banner ads!</b> OSCAR


----------



## Daniel

Actually one of my reasons for favoring advertising, is for the convenient links. I started to mention that in my original post but it started getting to long so I deleted a lot of it including some of the benefits I see in having ads around. banners with links to the businesses web site is a big one. businesses being able to run ads with links to specific pages is anouther. It could help stream line a lot of things and hopefully even incourage specials for the I.A.P. as well. gives more reason to belong to this group. It could help suppliers be more responsive to what is happening in the group as well. if the hot topic of the month is acrylics. hopefully suppliers would be able to respond to that with ads right here on the group.
sort of bring the turner, supplier relationship a step or two closer.


> _Originally posted by RussFairfield_
> <br />It makes me feel good to know that nobody wants to see a convenient link to Bill Baumbeck, Ryan, me, Craft Supplies, Berea, or the several other folks who would be buying the advertising space to provide this site with a steady income.[][}]


----------



## OSCAR15

Daniel...We already have links from home page...We can add more....Paid advertising has its own set of issues...Convenience is great don't get me wrong. BUT can any member give a negative (although truthful) review of a product, if that product is made by a paid advertiser?


----------



## Daniel

> _Originally posted by chitswood_
> <br />"I hate the thought of a membership fee. It squashes the free and open flow of information and education.
> 
> Exaclty, and the problem with a premium membership is I can't think of anything to offer that shouldn't already be free.
> 
> One thing that is missing in this comment is that the interaction is not "Free" that is the reason for this thread. it costs Jeff around $10 a day to provide me with the ability to interact here.
> 
> I'm afraid donating money directly is something I'll avoid, I get killer deals on the wood we buy in bulk, so thats how I can help in the biggest way, I know my dollar can make more money for this site if I spend it on wood first.
> 
> I understand the take money convert to wood to then convert to money again. but aren't you back where you started? not trying to be sarcastic here. but at that point you are still faced with either giving the money after one rotation or converting yet again.
> sooner or later you have to face that what is needed is money to pay the monthly bills. In my experience a person is willing to give or they are not. all the rest is just a song and dance they make up to justify there decision. the givers have to do it as well. be there when I explain it to my wife.
> 
> 
> Offer advertisement on this site, "chitswood" may be a buyer. As long as the site is still here and free, I'm a happy goober.
> We advertise our woods in the classifieds don't we? Why is anyone against a business advertising for pay?
> 
> You hit on a deeper train of thought I've had here. look at who gets what from this group. should the people that are giving info free be expected to pay to be able to do that? should those that make money selling there goods here be able to do so free of charge? it fits my way of thinking that those that are doing the giving should get the getting. and those that are making the money should support the site.
> above all this makes the most since to me.
> 
> hope you don't think I'm picking on your comments cause it was not my intent, your post jsut brought up some other thinking for me.


----------



## Daniel

The one comment I have read that concerns me about paid advertisers is. could the group remain unobjective about the suppliers knowing that one is a bigger supporter than anouther. I think it woudl be inevitable that the big advertisers woudl tend to be shown favoratism and that would not be good. ont he other hand. look at CSUSA and Nils actually posting and interacting with the group. I think it puts CSUSA in a much better light than other suppliers to be doing that. so be it, let them be all they can be is where I finally end up with that thought. Convenience was mentioned as only one aspect of the whole picture. I still think paid advertising is the way to go though. for many reasons. to many to be able to express through these posts.


> _Originally posted by OSCAR15_
> <br />Daniel...We already have links from home page...We can add more....Paid advertising has its own set of issues...Convenience is great don't get me wrong. BUT can any member give a negative (although truthful) review of a product, if that product is made by a paid advertiser?


----------



## OSCAR15

Daniel..I respect your opinion, as well as everyone elses.  I am merely presenting mine. I do not want to get into a shouting match with anyone.... I think it is great that CSUSA is participating, and I wish Berea, PSI and others would also.  I agree that it would bring us closer to the vendors, and give vendors more insight on what we as turners want. But putting the dollar sign in front of this though may change the very thing that you  (and me as well) see as a possible benefit from their participation!


----------



## OSCAR15

> _Originally posted by chitswood_
> <br />"I hate the thought of a membership fee. It squashes the free and open flow of information and education. As others have noted, If we're an open group, 10% of the membership will provide support. If membership costs money, we'll be 10% the size we are now."
> 
> Exaclty, and the problem with a premium membership is <b>I can't think of anything to offer that shouldn't already be free.</b>
> 
> I have made ample use of the business classifieds. But when I joined, <b>if I had seen a listing fee, I would've avoided it like the plague.</b>
> 
> 
> -Darick



I don't understand the logic here...Maybe I am stupid.  Why should it be free? You are being provided a service here! Second, this service isn't free at all.  If you are following this forum, you should realize the problem here. It is in fact very costly!  Are you suggesting that membership should be free while others foot the tab?
Why "avoid it like the plague? You run a business. Can you name<b> just one other</b> place where you can advertise (to a hand picked group of people interested in what you are selling)?  I think paying a modest fee for this would indeed be a bargain.  If you sell blanks, what better place to advertise? Everyone here is looking to buy blanks!
[]Please correct my convoluted thinking if I am wrong here.[]
Classified "SHOULD" be paid for, whether it is individual or businesses. I am against BANNER ADS!
Daniel, I have thought about your last comments.  I can in fact see some benefits to what you suggest.  I just am not sure if the benefits will in fact outweigh the possible lessening of this site as a resource. It is pretty much perfect as it is.  Our main concern (all of us) should be to keep it status quo if possible.  If that means paying 15 bucks a year, I am all for it.


----------



## DocStram

Jeff,
I have a suggestion. After some 215 posts we now have a pretty broad range of ideas and opinions. All of this has been very enlightening. I've even had my mind changed about a few things. 
Since we've all had the opportunity to read the wide array of opinions, maybe it's time for you to run the poll again.  You might want to reword it and add few ideas, but let's take a vote and see where things stand.
The survey may need to be expanded to include several different questions.  Or, maybe we can set up a Lickert scale with a statement and then a range of answers, for example:

"Read each statement and then mark it according to the following scale:
      Strongly Agree   Agree   No Opinion  Disgree  Strongly Disagree
1. IAP Should have an annual membership fee
2. IAP Should allow paid advertising
3. Classified ads should be free for all IAP Members
4. Classified ads should be free for everybody.
5. There should be levels of membership.
6. IAP should be funded solely through donations and fundraisers.
7. IAP members should be charged a fee for each post. 

The advantage of the five point scale is that we aren't forced into a Yes/No situation. Instead we are given a range to choose from.  Then, after the poll is closed, we can tally up the responses.
This is just my advice, sometimes I give real good advice .. other times it pretty much sucks.


----------



## chitswood

> _Originally posted by OSCAR15_
> <br />
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Originally posted by chitswood_
> <br />"I hate the thought of a membership fee. It squashes the free and open flow of information and education. As others have noted, If we're an open group, 10% of the membership will provide support. If membership costs money, we'll be 10% the size we are now."
> 
> Exaclty, and the problem with a premium membership is <b>I can't think of anything to offer that shouldn't already be free.</b>
> 
> I have made ample use of the business classifieds. But when I joined, <b>if I had seen a listing fee, I would've avoided it like the plague.</b>
> 
> 
> -Darick
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't understand the logic here...Maybe I am stupid.  Why should it be free? You are being provided a service here! Second, this service isn't free at all.  If you are following this forum, you should realize the problem here. It is in fact very costly!  Are you suggesting that membership should be free while others foot the tab?
> Why "avoid it like the plague? You run a business. Can you name<b> just one other</b> place where you can advertise (to a hand picked group of people interested in what you are selling)?  I think paying a modest fee for this would indeed be a bargain.  If you sell blanks, what better place to advertise? Everyone here is looking to buy blanks!
> []Please correct my convoluted thinking if I am wrong here.[]
> Classified "SHOULD" be paid for, whether it is individual or businesses. I am against BANNER ADS!
> Daniel, I have thought about your last comments.  I can in fact see some benefits to what you suggest.  I just am not sure if the benefits will in fact outweigh the possible lessening of this site as a resource. It is pretty much perfect as it is.  Our main concern (all of us) should be to keep it status quo if possible.  If that means paying 15 bucks a year, I am all for it.
Click to expand...


Hmmm, I better be careful answering this.

We're all in this together, this isn't about are own luxury, its about finding suitable funds for this site while mainting what it is, so keep in mind lets not get in an argument, lets find a solution, too bad typing is so much slower than talking![][]

This site is a social area devoted to penturning, there is no charge for the great information here, thats why the members are happy and willing to donate.

The site costs Jeff money to run, but if he starts charging us for the service it provides, it becomes a business site, thats why a members fee should be avoided - does this make sense[?]

I'm not very creative, maybe there is something Jeff can charge access to, I just couldn't think of anything that wouldn't do what I stated above about this becoming a business site.

I think donations from this, our community, should be sufficient to support jeff's social site, Like Dario has shown, we are more than willing to contribute.


----------



## OSCAR15

Hey Chit...
  I agree we all need to be working together on this.  I agree FULLY in that "This site is a social area devoted to penturning, there is no charge for the great information here, thats why the members are happy and willing to donate."
If contributions fill the need I say GREAT!  If a membership is required, I say a small fee is well worth what we get out of it.  When I say I am against ads, I do <b>NOT</b> mean your business (or any other memeber) running classifieds.  In fact, I am for it!  I would MUCH rather do busines with the other members here than with large commercial interests...I have seen what you offer! Your stock is awesome, and at a great price! I think I am being misunderstood on my opinion. I DO NOT WANT to see ROCKLER,PSI,BEREA,CSUSA and others plastering banner ads!
I have no objection to the forum putting in links to them as a convenience.
You and others that have posted want to see a continuing exchange of free ideas.  I think we need to re word it to OPEN.  The site cost money, no getting away from this fact.  I think 10% contribute because it is on a voluntary basis.  I believe a small fee from members would<b>  not </b>mean that the other 90% would quit.
And yes you are right...membership fees would be "commercial" .  BUT wouldn't it be less comercial to have the forum members pay rather than except large ads from major players? It  is IAP.ORG (organization)  <b>not</b> IAP.COM (commercial).  I believe the folks running this could make a tidy profit selling it. They have chosen NOT to....They recognize this is one terrific forum...Best on the net.  Better we foot the bill (IF NEED BE) than major companies. 
LETS KEEP IT OURS!


----------



## JimGo

Jeff,
Thanks for the opportunity to even voice an opinion in all of this!  

It amazes me that some people are so dead set against paying a fee to be a member.  You mentioned early on that it costs you personally at least $100 per month (assuming a decent amount of donations) to keep this place running, yet apparently some aren't even willing to contribute $10 a year to help keep the forum available.  That's disappointing to me.  

I really appreciate your generosity, and will try to do better about making contributions.  Periodic reminders, including a private E-mail in my case (I'm NOT advocating this for others), wouldn't be a bad thing.  And I'm content to leave the running of this site in your capable hands, unless it gets to be too much for you.


----------



## chitswood

> _Originally posted by OSCAR15_
> <br />Hey Chit...
> I agree we all need to be working together on this.  I agree FULLY in that "This site is a social area devoted to penturning, there is no charge for the great information here, thats why the members are happy and willing to donate."
> If contributions fill the need I say GREAT!  If a membership is required, I say a small fee is well worth what we get out of it.  When I say I am against ads, I do <b>NOT</b> mean your business (or any other memeber) running classifieds.  In fact, I am for it!  I would MUCH rather do busines with the other members here than with large commercial interests...I have seen what you offer! Your stock is awesome, and at a great price! I think I am being misunderstood on my opinion. I DO NOT WANT to see ROCKLER,PSI,BEREA,CSUSA and others plastering banner ads!
> I have no objection to the forum putting in links to them as a convenience.
> You and others that have posted want to see a continuing exchange of free ideas.  I think we need to re word it to OPEN.  The site cost money, no getting away from this fact.  I think 10% contribute because it is on a voluntary basis.  I believe a small fee from members would<b>  not </b>mean that the other 90% would quit.
> And yes you are right...membership fees would be "commercial" .  BUT wouldn't it be less comercial to have the forum members pay rather than except large ads from major players? It  is IAP.ORG (organization)  <b>not</b> IAP.COM (commercial).  I believe the folks running this could make a tidy profit selling it. They have chosen NOT to....They recognize this is one terrific forum...Best on the net.  Better we foot the bill (IF NEED BE) than major companies.
> LETS KEEP IT OURS!



Obviously I'm a newb when it comes to running a website[]

I agree then, no banner adds, lets keep it ours.

Lets resort to membership fees as a last resort though, things are pretty nice the way they are. Let's see if it can continue to run off donations, perhaps %10 donating is enough people to keep this site running?

Like I said, fees scare me, if it costs money I have to be REALLY convinced that I like it. ( which I am in this case[])


----------



## Ron Mc

Jeff....Have you looked into your hosting options for better rates? I have several websites up and running and the rates are extremely reasonable.
If you are interested in my host let me know because they can easily handle this forums broadband and hard drive use.


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## Ron Mc

I don't agree with levels of membership at all. This totally defeats the purpose of this forum. I thought that the forum was here to learn from. If a new member has to pay to learn I believe the world will loose potentially wonderful pen turners.
I remember when I first found it. If I would have had to pay a membership fee at that time I would not have.


----------



## ldimick

Wow! It just keeps on going. Which is good.

A few thoughts and observations.

1. Subscriber only sections will not work. First of all the purpose of IAP is to foster growth and education of our hobby. By charging for this inforamtion we are blocking off access to it. I know all about the argument of economics. If you do offer one month free access to new members then they pillage the honey pot and disappear. Next month they reappear with a new name, IP, etc.

2. What is to prevent someone from taking the information provided in the subscriber section, reformatting it, and putting it back on the web? While there are a LOT of great articles here there is really nothing that can't be found elsewhere. That's the good/bad thing about the Internet - lots of sources for information.

3. I suspect that if membership fees are charged that the tone of the posts here will get ugly. Simply because the attitude of "I PAID FOR IT AND I CAN DO WHAT I WANT" tends to appear. Discipline of inappropriate members is dificult because now they think they have bought the right to behave inappropriately.

4. There is a lot of merit to be said for not allowing paid advertisements. I read some British motorcycle magazine for that very reason. They do not accept advertising from the motorcycle makers, only from resellers. They are beholding to no one and they are not afraid to tell it like it is.

5. The IAP, up to this point, seems to be functioning through the honor system. We have some great articles that have been written that could be viewed as detrimental to the author as it creates competition. Many articles contain, for lack of a better term, trade secrets. The group buys succeed because of the trust and honor system that has been developed here. Some of those deals involve thousands of dollars. 

I would prefer to have a note on the top of every page that tells us how much money the IAP needs for the current month. I don't mind helping Jeff out but unless I am reminded I don't understand the entire need and I get lax in my donations.

6. The problem with charging a surcharge for business transacted on the site is that there are many deals that do not come across the web. There arer a lot of offline deals. While I am sure everyone here is above board I think this method is a little shakey.

Let the flaming begin![}]


----------



## OSCAR15

Problem here guys is that there are many good arguments indeed.  
WE need to reach a consensus here. Jeff asked for members opinions.
Only one will be implemented. After reading all comments here, I realize several things.
1) It seems everyone wants things to stay the same.  This is good.
2) It seems the majority favor donations.  This is ok too.
3) It seems to me most will contribute, but prefer not to have "fixed" fees. I understand what Chitwood and others mean here.  Keeping it voluntary keeps it "as is". This is good too, as long as enough money is raised.

Botton line here is that the site keeps going as is! It is a fantastic resource! Keeping it as is is critical.  Few here want to see <b>HOME DESPOT</b> or <b>Crapsman</b> ads plastered over our site.  
If I hadn't "stumbled" onto this forum, I would have NEVER known of the issues here. 
 Lynn (ldimick) made the comment "I would prefer to have a note on the top of every page that tells us how much money the IAP needs for the current month. I don't mind helping Jeff out but unless I am reminded I don't understand the entire need and I get lax in my donations".
To me, this is the <b>BEST</b> idea yet! Truth here Jeff....I didn't even realize you took donations (or I would have gladly contributed).
Instead of burying this somewhere, why not put it on home page, or every page as Lynn suggests? Also, post the address to which to send contributions!  I have been a member for a few months, and had no idea! If folks don't know, they cannot help! 
From all the participation in this forum, and from all the differing opinions, one thing is certain. The majority of people here want to keep this going as is.  They will do what it takes to help.  Prominantly posting the needs of the organization will keep us informed.  
P.S.  WHERE DO THOSE OF US WHO DO NOT KNOW MAIL IN OUR DONATIONS ?????


----------



## lwalden

I prefer Don's recommendation- for membership, with tiered rates. I also like the thought of tying access to membership level- non-members (guests) may be restricted from downloading, which seems to be one of the issues- bandwidth consumed having an associated expense. Basic entry level membership may not provide ability to post items for sale in the business classifieds section. Have several levels of annual membership rates for folks to select from- Member, Supporter, Patron, etc....which could be an alternate to the slimline vs. emperor discussion on setting aside gross proceeds of a pen sold each year. I've only been accessing this site actively for three or four months now, and I can't put a value to the wealth of knowledge I have gained in that time (though I'll be making a donation via Dario's current raffle, now that I'm a little more aware of the issues involved). I for one would be more than happy to subscribe for an anuual membership if that ends up the preferred option. 



> _Originally posted by its_virgil_
> <br />My thoughts on this is to charge a membership fee and even have levels of membership. I love this place and would pay for membership. Many will and many will not. Those of us who enjoy this site, who get lots of worthwhile info from it and who are givers to the site in both pen knowldedge and $$ will continue to do so.
> 
> I would give a pen for auction, but someone has to auction it, someone has to buy it, and someone has to run it, and someone has to collect the money....mdmbership fees seem like a such a better way. When my kids were in youth soccer and othere sports, I refused to sell the normal stuff they sell to raise money. I would much rather give an equal amount of money that the candy, etc would raise instead of having my kids and me trying to sell the stuff. Same with pens....Just how many pens can we sell? How often....? Membership has its privlidges and those privledges cost $$$$.
> Do a good turn daily!
> Don


----------



## Ron in Drums PA

> _Originally posted by OSCAR15_
> <br />
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Originally posted by RussFairfield_
> <br />It makes me feel good to know that nobody wants to see a convenient link to Bill Baumbeck, Ryan, me, Craft Supplies, Berea, or the several other folks who would be buying the advertising space to provide this site with a steady income.[][}]
> 
> 
> 
> Russ...It is NOT the "convenient links" I find objectionable. I support these firms with every purchase I make to them. LINKS are fine!  I feel that accepting paid advertisement will change the forum for the worst.
> I think that it will act to censor comments about specific companies and/or products.  How can the membership give candid and truthful comments? As to Randy's idea of implementation, I agree. It will be difficult. Software may be needed to implement this.  AS I SAID AT THE START OF MY ORIGINAL POST:  This is indeed a difficult situation.  There are no easy answers.  What I cannnot understand however, is people that use and benefit from this site <b>(SOME EVEN USE THE IAP LOGO ON THEIR SITES TO PROMOTE SALES)</b>, moanin and groanin over ( a minimal ) annual fee.  A couple of cents a day is a small price to pay!  If you   are able to screw up ONE LESS pen from the info you get here, it is well worth it!
> I belong to another web forum (free) but paid users there  get another URL (more features)and a password to access it. They charge 10 bucks a year, and I gladly paid it.  It offers a wealth of info. When you fill out the form with credit card info, it sends a reply e-mail with the "paid" url and password.
> I believe they set this up as an auto-reply once credit card is accepted. <b> The sitemaster claims to have 60,000 + paid members. Do the math ! And cost to subscribers is a MERE .83 cents a month. I guess some folks here will say they are outta here cause of this high expense.  </b>
> 
> <b>P.S.  along with ads, do you want spyware, spam, and pop-ups too?  That usually  is the price you pay for banner ads!</b> OSCAR
Click to expand...


First - I'll bet Russ said this "tongue in check" but he also mentions he is willing to pay for advertising his wares.  Do you really think Russ is going to invade your computer with malware?

Second - There are numerous ways of dealing with spyware, spam, and pop-ups. Only children have these problems, adults get antivirus software, anti pop-up software and anti spyware software. Adults use them regularly and keep the software updated.

Click on the link below and you will see a great way to advertise without the problems you as so concerned about
http://www.woodcentral.com/cgi-bin/turning.pl?noframes;read=110587


----------



## OSCAR15

Whatwoodido: (Drew)  You may be right in your assumption that everyone will not pay...
I <b> never</b> meant to say that paying dues was the way to go, only that<b> IF</b> it came down to it, it might be the lesser of evils.  
I did not know about board of directors, or that it self destructed.  Once again, I agree that not everyone will be happy.  I guess that all of us having different viewpoints, and being so varied,  is what makes this forum so great.  
Trying to "please" everyone won't work , as you say....
After reading comments here in this forum, my opinions have gone back and forth.  Bottom line is it is whatever Jeff thinks best. This is his baby.  No I am not against auctions raising money either.  My only desire is that the forum continues as is. 
As to only 85 members voting on the issue....Could be that the poll page isn't visited as much.  Drew, I was not only UNAWARE that the site takes contributions, but I am unaware that auctions are done to raise money...Money is Money!  The ONLY agreement that will be achieved here is that we need to continue on.  I would suggest Jeff E mails the membership asking for help.  That would eat still more bandwidth!
Why not do what Lynn suggested, i.e. ask on each page for contributions, auctions, etc. POST WHERE TO SEND IT.
Many members may just be unaware! I was until I stumbled onto this poll.
If a notice for help was posted on the main page (or all pages in forums) it would be interesting to see what would happen.  I do believe that there are a terrific group of folks here that would pitch in to do what it takes!  EVEN IF THEY CAN NEVER AGREE ON ANYTHING 

[][][]


----------



## chitswood

[][][]


----------



## OSCAR15

Ron: You are taking my comments in a way I <b>never</b> meant them!
I did not mean to imply that Russ would put malware on anyones machine. What I did mean is that IF we take (ANY) ads, we will become a commercial site and not be too particular who we accept advertising dollars from! As for how "adults" handle spyware etc...It will please you to know my machine IS well protected and updated regularly.  
I wonder if the "adults" you speak of are the same ones groaning about paying a few dollars to help keep this site up!
This forum is supposed to be of help to Jeff, not a p**sing contest! ADULTS do not do that! With that said, I have voiced my last opinion in here!


----------



## Ron in Drums PA

> _Originally posted by OSCAR15_
> <br />IF we take (ANY) ads, we will become a commercial site and not be too particular who we accept advertising dollars from!




Click on the link below and you will see a great way to advertise without the problems you as so concerned about
http://www.woodcentral.com/cgi-bin/turning.pl?noframes;read=110587


----------



## Kemosabe62

I regret that I'm one who hasn't donated. Whether this is neglect or ignorance, I don't know, but feel it is both. And I am sorry for this. after making this post I'm gonna find that donate button after making this post. But may I mention that maybe doing this the way the "sawmill creek" forum does it. As some of you are members/contributors there also. It's free to all. Once a year there's a member( I don't think he's a moderator/ more like a cheerleader) who starts a thread each year saying more or less "OK guys it's time to pony up." He sates a dollar amt. that someone figures each member should contribute to pay the bills. And it is a very nominal fee. This may be due to the fact they have more contributing members, I don't know. But in doing so your title goes from being a "member" to a "contributor". This feel puts in the "guilt" factor and makes folks pony up. Although this won't work for folks who "takes up 3 parking spaces" to quote Dario. I don't know if the way they do it puts them in the black or red, or if everyone is fairly compensated. But I feel if they or you go to a membeship fee only, you'll lose a few if not alot of members and will never be able to reach people who want to learn. Speak with Keith Outten at "Sawmill Creek" ( I hope he doesn't mind the plug), see if it'll work for IAP.


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## Dario

Anthony,

If you do hit that donate button...don't forget to sign up for the RAFFLE

We are at <b>$925.00</b> right now and I am hoping to hit <b>$1,000.00</b> [][}] before it ends.

I know it is very ambitious and I would have never dreamt it a few days ago...but our generous members made it all possible.

Thank you!!!


----------



## jeff

Let me check in here with a couple of comments.

First, for those who feel the donate button is buried... it has been on the front page for almost a year. It's under the logo in the content nav box. Per your suggestions, I'll be putting it elsewhere on the site also.

There will never be gaudy or annoying flashing banner ads or popups. IF advertising is ever accepted, it will be unobtrusive and tasteful. 

At this point, it's unlikely that we'll have membership fees anytime soon. Donations have been coming in nicely since we started this discussion, which tells me that when folks are aware that there is a need, they'll step up. I probably have not made our needs clear enough, and I'll remedy that soon.

Thanks for all the thoughtful discussion.


----------



## pssherman

> We are at $925.00 right now and I am hoping to hit $1,000.00  before it ends.


Way to go Dario.

Paul in AR


----------



## chitswood

Thanks for a great site Jeff!


----------



## GBusardo

Jeff,  I would have no problem with a  membership fee of say 10 dollars a year as well as limit the amount of photos in the gallery.  One other thing I thought of, what if everyone  turned a pen and mailed it to IAP. The pens could then be sold and the IAP could then keep all of the profits. I have no clue what the cost is of running this site or how much the shortfall is.   100's???  1000's???
Gary


----------



## blodal

What about an annual (or more often) fund raising drive. Like Public TV sort of. A week of special activities; auctions, raffles, prizes, more online chats with special contributors on special subjects. Lots of possibilities that would really catch everyone's attention.

This is basically what has happened in the last few days since Jeff made the need known.


----------



## Dario

> _Originally posted by blodal_
> <br />What about an annual (or more often) fund raising drive. Like Public TV sort of. A week of special activities; auctions, raffles, prizes, more online chats with special contributors on special subjects. Lots of possibilities that would really catch everyone's attention.
> 
> This is basically what has happened in the last few days since Jeff made the need known.



Bill,

I do intend to do that [].  

Cannot promise how often I can do this but I will try to do it every 6 months.  Darick (Chitswood) and I are actually in contact planning/sharing ideas for the next "gimick" [].  The next blitz will be a fun filled one!!!  Don't want to spill too much info for now so just watch out for it.

Of course we are hoping other ideas (and sponsors) will surface as we get along with this []


----------



## blodal

I will be sitting on Pens and needles waiting.


----------



## Ron in Drums PA

I see allot of people willing to donate a pen to be raffled or sold with the proceeds going to IAP, but not one person willing to step up to the plate to do the work required to make this idea a success.

This does not happen by magic folks, there is allot of work involved.

Any volunteers?


----------



## Dario

> _Originally posted by Ron in Drums PA_
> <br />I see allot of people willing to donate a pen to be raffled or sold with the proceeds going to IAP, but not one person willing to step up to the plate to do the work required to make this idea a success.
> 
> This does not happen by magic folks, there is allot of work involved.
> 
> Any volunteers?



Ron, 

If I have more time I will do it but I am spread too thin as it is.  If there are no takers, I may re-consider but hoping I won't have to.

Which venue will the sales be done...eBay???


----------



## Dario

I think the best things is...HONOR SYSTEM.  

1. Make a pen for IAP
2. Sell it
3. Send proceeds to Jeff as donation.

Simple and easy.

Maybe we can make a thread just for it...show off the piece you will sell and update later for how much it sold for (=donation). []


----------



## Dario

The goal is to generate funds for IAP...it doesn't have to be through pen sales []


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## thewishman

Dario,

Thank you for stepping up and doing the raffle. While so many of us are trying to decide what "should" be done, you have sparked a slew of donations - almost $1000! Your offer to credit donations from the prior few days was also an inclusive idea. Thank you for making something happen, while we're all just yappin'.

Chris


----------



## gerryr

I am not willing to step up and run an auction because I have a pretty good idea that it would be a mountain of work.  In addition, I would not be willing to donate a pen to be auctioned on eBay.  I haven't looked at pens on eBay for a long time but the couple of times I did, what I saw wasn't up to the quality of most of the pens posted here, plus the prices were cheaper than dirt.  I don't think any of us want see a Baron we made sell on eBay for $20 or $30 or not sell at all.


----------



## Ron Mc

I believe the honor system would be much better than selling on eBay. I don't sell pens on eBay and don't intend to. Even better I'll just send the profits in from a sale and call it a day.
I've spent some spare time in the last few days reading this thread and am kind of disheartened by the fact that there are a couple posts that include apologize for not donating. Something is seriously wrong with that. No one should ever have to apologize for not making a voluntary donation![] I for one would like to let the members that felt this necessary know that, <b>"Yes, You do contribute to this forum on a regular basis with your posts and your pens. To date this was more than enough and I believe it will be more than enough for some time."</b>
I personally feel like this whole fundraising issue is getting out of hand and will begin to do more damage to this site than any good it will do. I also feel that a lot of artists will leave the site if it starts to charge a fee. Not because of the fee but because it will no longer have the sharing environment that it used to. As far as fundraisers every 6 months that's fine. Just don't post comments about it all over the forum.


----------



## Dario

> _Originally posted by Ron Mc_
> <br /><b>I personally feel like this whole fundraising issue is getting out of hand and will begin to do more damage to this site than any good it will do</b>. I also feel that a lot of artists will leave the site if it starts to charge a fee. Not because of the fee but because it will no longer have the sharing environment that it used to. As far as fundraisers every 6 months that's fine. <b>Just don't post comments about it all over the forum.</b>



So you think it is wrong for me/us to mention it here or at the casual conversation? [?]


----------



## Dario

> _Originally posted by Ron Mc_
> <br />I've spent some spare time in the last few days reading this thread and am kind of disheartened by the fact that there are a couple posts that include apologize for not donating. Something is seriously wrong with that. No one should ever have to apologize for not making a voluntary donation![] I for one would like to let the members that felt this necessary know that, <b>"Yes, You do contribute to this forum on a regular basis with your posts and your pens. To date this was more than enough and I believe it will be more than enough for some time."</b>



I agree...that is why it is called VOLUNTARY.

However, there is a time when people NEED to respond.  Failure to do so may force some changes that will require changing VOLUNTARY to MANDATORY.

We are trying to avert that if possible...but know that 200 people rowing the Titanic won't cut it.  Even if those 200 won't tire, I don't think it is fair.  You don't want this ship to sink do you?

A small assistance/help goes a long way. []


----------



## Kemosabe62

Dario, too late. Already hit the donate button. Will participate in another raffle later if I can.

Ron Mc, I am only  appolgetic in the fact I have benefitted from what I've learned here and not returned the favor to whom I've learned it from. But saying that, I've stopped buying my blanks from e-bay and have begun purchasing them from some of you here, feeling I'm benefiting a brotherhood sort of. Also I've jumped on some kits, gotten a Drill Dr(thanks to Dario's post) all before I donated.

Without this site being available the way it is I would not be doing this post. I am appreciative of what you guys have done and are doing. As now and may be in the future, I'll need a reminder to contribute to whom I'm learning from. Others may not, but that's just me.


----------



## Ron Mc

Dario,
Of course I don't want this ship to sink. That is why I assist/help in my own way.[]
I don't think that there should ever be a time when a member should feel that they need to apologize for not making a donation though. I'm all for the raffle and believe that it's a good idea and a great way to raise funds for the stability of the site. I also believe there is a lot more going on in the background that members aren't even aware of that happens to help the site. That's good as well. I just don't want anyone to feel that they must feel bad for wanting to learn or share yet they can't make a donation. That's all.


----------



## Randy_

> Dario,
> 
> Thank you for stepping up and doing the raffle. While so many of us are trying to decide what "should" be done, you have sparked a slew of donations - almost $1000!



Dario's effort is tremendous!!  And this comment is in no way meant to diminish his effort; but I would like to point out that what he has encouraged people to donate is only 25% of what is needed to keep IAP afloat for a year.  Meaning, of course, that we will have to go through this exercise every three months forever if we are to keep IAP in the black using donations.  Think you will get the same response if you are hitting up people for donations every 3 months??  I seriously doubt it!!  Donations are very nice and very idealistic; but my cynical guess is that it will take a "LOT" more than voluntary donations to keep IAP on a sound financial footing.  I could be wrong, of course; but I doubt it??


----------



## Randy_

> Dario,
> 
> Thank you for stepping up and doing the raffle. While so many of us are trying to decide what "should" be done, you have sparked a slew of donations - almost $1000!



Dario's effort is tremendous!!  And this comment is in no way meant to diminish his effort; but I would like to point out that what he has encouraged people to donate is slightly less than 25% of the amount required to keep IAP afloat for a year.  Meaning, of course, that we will have to go through this exercise every three months "FOREVER" if we are to keep IAP in the black using donations.  Think you will get the same response if you are hitting up people for donations every 3 months??  Sadly, I doubt it!!  

Donations are very nice and very idealistic; but my cynical guess is that it will take a "LOT" more than voluntary donations to keep IAP on a sound financial footing.  I could be wrong, of course; but I doubt it??


----------



## chitswood

C'mon Randy, join the sunshine club...

we can keep the wagon rolling[]


----------



## Randy_

How much does it cost to join??[][]


----------



## Dario

> _Originally posted by Ron Mc_
> <br />Dario,
> Of course I don't want this ship to sink. That is why I assist/help in my own way.[]
> I don't think that there should ever be a time when a member should feel that they need to apologize for not making a donation though. I'm all for the raffle and believe that it's a good idea and a great way to raise funds for the stability of the site. <b>I also believe there is a lot more going on in the background that members aren't even aware of that happens to help the site.</b> That's good as well. I just don't want anyone to feel that they must feel bad for wanting to learn or share yet they can't make a donation. That's all.



I agree..can I quote myself from the RAFFLE thread? []



> _Originally posted by Dario_
> <br />Jim,
> 
> Thank you [:I]
> 
> I am just "chatty" so I am more visible than others.  <b>Rest assured that there are a lot who are helping behind the scenes and others helping in their own ways.  In a way this thread will expose some but I know there are those who really would rather remain anonymous...they are the unsung heroes of the site </b>[]
> 
> Remember too that this is only the financial aspect...the posters who selflessly share their knowledge (tirelessly repeating maybe a thousand times), are the real foundation of this community.
> 
> IAP has become my home...if I can help keep it up, I would gladly do so...as I know you would too [].
> 
> 
> (end speech) LOL
> 
> Just bumping this thread up actually LOL [}]


----------



## its_virgil

I don't think pen raffels or pen auctions will raise enougn funds to make it worth the effort. Who will be bidding on the pen(s)? We will. Who will be buying a raffle ticket? We will. I would just as soon send Jeff some $$$$. I would hope that more members here would voluntarily send Jeff some money...what ever can be afforded. Just a little from most of us would add up to more that what a few are doing. 

I was told by a Red Cross Exec that if each person who gave blood for the first time last year would give again this year, their blood supply would be in excellent shape. But, most of the first time givers will not give again and the Red Cross has to continually spend time and resources to find new first time givers. Lots of people give blood regurarly, but those are not enough to keep the blood supply in good shape. I think this is the case for most non profit orgainzations.

I am not really in favor of a membership fee although I have advocated it in the past. I really think this site shoud continue to be the way Jeff and Scott envisioned it...free for all and a place where penturners can come and share their craft. But in reality, that only happens if the bills get paid.

I really believe that each person who benefits from this site should voluntarily contribute to keep it up and running. As I've said before, we all can afford computers, digital camers or scanners to take the pictures, internet service, CA glue, sandpaper, other supplies, and pen kits. Surely we can afford to send Jeff contributions to keep the knowledge freely flowing. Just my thoughts.

Do a good turn daily!
Don

PS: Thanks Dario for the wood raffle. I would rather have a chance at winning some of Darios's wood than bid on a pen or buy a raffle ticket for a pen. Again, just my thoughts and no one has to agree.


----------



## ashaw

Jeff
I have been with this for almost 2 years.  I subscribe to a number of magazines but most of my information and contacts comes from here and also from The Pen Shop.  i have no problem with being charged with a resonable fee.  You have done a fine job with the site and you should not have to foot the cost even with the auctions I am sure you are still footing a part of the bill.
I also believe The Pen site should also charge a fee.  
Let a guest come in a tryout some functions and if he likes what he sees then have a fee to join.


Alan


----------



## GBusardo

Morning Everyone,
Jeff, I been really reading and trying figure out what the best course of action would be to keep the IAP afloat. I know lots of people do tons of work to try and raise money for the site and do the administrative tasks to keep the site going. I applauded all of you. From what I understand, the site needs over $4000 a year to run. Not a lot of money for an organization with over 2000 registered members. For me personally, I live paycheck to paycheck and have a hard enough time convincing my wife that I "need" this new tool or ten more pen kits, blanks and some glue.  hahaha . Having said that, after really thinking about it, I think a $10 per year membership fee to be able to post and download is more than reasonable.  Maybe a decal and pen blank can be included in the membership fee. Just think of how much fund raising that would cut out. Doing this will probably not hurt the total membership and will ease some of the guilt I sometimes feel by not hitting the donate button. I, personally, would not have any problems seeing advertising on this site either, just no pop ups please.  Maybe some of the real companies that make a profit from this site can kick in to the kitty, too.  Maybe they already do, I do not really know. Just a for instance, how maybe people here would have never heard of some of the suppliers if it were not from this site? I probably would still be buying all my supplies from PSI.  This site has about the nicest, most helpful group of people I have ever "chatted" with.  One more thing, some of the pen turners here just have to be some of the best of what they do in the world, some of the work here is incredible. 
Thanks for listening
Gary


----------



## fuzzydog

Gary, well said and ditto

David


----------



## Dario

Gary,

Another paycheck to paycheck guy here...don't know how I got myself in too deep this money pit of a hobby [B)][V][}].

Too late for me now...it got a good hold of me (and my wallet) already. [xx(]


----------



## Skye

I think the continual fundraising makes the site look like it's circling the drain. Is some fundraising necessary, sure, but when it get's to be this common, it makes it look like there's trouble keeping a float.

Just my POV.


----------



## jscola

I agree with Gary also.         Joe


----------



## Huzzah

I think it might help donations if we knew what the target is, and how close we are to the target.  Someone would have to decide whether it's a monthly goal, quarterly, or annual, but if you have ever watched a PBS fundraiser they don't just say we need to raise this much money.  They say we need to raise this much total, have already raised this much, so we have this much more to go.  

It seems to me a goal is much easier to meet when you know where you stand against it.


----------



## lwalden

Jeff- ever consider the thought of providing a recurring ACH donation/membership fee option? Kind of the way PBS offers this option for contributors? You know, the option where your donation amount is spread out in monthly payments over a year? Overhead to acquire an ACH origination application is minimal- and I know I'd never miss the $2.50 a month that a $30 a year donation would break down into. Shoot, that's less than the cost of one of BB's blanks, and I manage to mess up two or three of those a month....or the cost of stopping at the wrong ATM, given some of the bank charges these days...
If you're interested, I can get in touch with the folks in our Bank that provide ACH origination software and get more details for you...
And whether you call it a donation or voluntary annual membership doesn't much matter, seems like it would be a viable option for providing recurring funding/cashflow that addresses some of the concerns expressed so far with selling advertising or too much time spent running frequent fund raising efforts.
Let me know if there's an interest in pursuing this option.


----------



## epson

I think that we could raise money if we charge for posting pictures on the busines clasifieds.  These people are making money from the web site, and are causing the use of excessive resourses.  As an example, Chistwood makes several posts a week with multiple pictures.  Bigrob777 updates his pricelist several times a week with pictures.  Are these costing the site money?  I am not saying the entire site should be paid by the classifieds, but it could be a supplimental income for those that post more than one picture per week.  

I think the classifieds were meant as an occasional post for a member.  If it becomes a daily feature post then I think that it should be a paid service, especially if pictures are involved.


----------



## gaturner

Jeff:

Just a few thoughts:

First, thanks for all you do to make this site great.  There arenâ€™t very many sites dedicated to one hobby-let alone penturning in general-that are as well organized and as helpful as this one.  Reading some of the posts that have been left it is obvious that even the forum admin duties can be a real headache sometimes[}], let alone the techno â€œnuts and boltsâ€ stuff that most of us never even see.  So, thank you.

Second, I voted for the donation route, even though I knew when I voted that way that you wouldnâ€™t even be putting the poll up if you already had enough donations coming in to keep everything running smoothly.  That being said, I too would be okay with a membership fee.  As has already been said, we all probably spend more money on movies, pizza, and other stuff that donâ€™t bring us as much enjoymentâ€¦or lasting value.

Third, I like the idea of a â€œtieredâ€ membership system.  Maybe make some parts free, like reading the posts (lots of info can be gleamed from just this area, I know).  Other areas, like posting comments or viewing pictures or PDFâ€™s could be for paying members only.  As far as the â€œselling one pen and donating the profitsâ€ is concerned, Iâ€™ve been turning for about a year, and Iâ€™ve yet to sell any.  Maybe I donâ€™t do enough turning, maybe they are not that good, maybe Iâ€™m giving away what I should be selling, I donâ€™t know.  I think that a paid membership-spelled out in black and white-will be more fair across the board.  If some can make donations above and beyond that, all the better.  I would like to suggest discounts for seniors and students.  That would make it a lot easier for one certain graduate student!  I know that probably opens a whole other can of worms that you would probably rather keep on the shelf.  Just a thought.

Thanks again.


----------



## justinrl

First, I am new to this site and a great one it is. Lots of details and technical how-to. 

Having read much of this thread, I went and made a donation to help keep things going for now, but I really think the membership fee is a good way to go.

If there is a pass made for forming a non-profit org, there are several things that need to be organized and spelled out prior to a formal IRS application, (based on the last 10 years working with one of the larger 501C-3 non-profits) membership is but one of the issues that needs to be spelled out.

Incorporation and designation as a non-profit takes a lot of the personal risk off an individual and places it with the whole group.


----------



## Jim in Oakville

Hi Jeff,

I am in support of either a donation or fee.  I like the idea of a fee with priveldges...seeing images, downloading files etc.

I think you do a great job here, I love being able to be a member here and I would pay for that priveldge.

[][][]


----------



## guts

jeff,if it comes down to donations how do we go about donating without using pay-pal,i know it was probably posted but i'm not going to read all 11 pages to see how,please post or e-mail me with instructions,thanks for all the hard work.


----------



## CameronPotter

Hi,

I haven't had a chance to read all the replies, but my feeling on this is: 

1. A website needs to be open to the public - that is the point.  Thus, charging a membership fee wouldn't work.

2. Donations are sporadic and probably can't be relied upon.

3. Not everyone sells their pens (although I would guess that most do) and so asking for donations of that order may or may not be appropriate.

4. Advertising is fine, but too much and the site becomes awkward to use, too little and you don't make enough money (there may be no overlap between these two extremes).

THEREFORE I suggest (as I notice that a few others have):

A. Remove the site's capability for albums.  Let people put their main photo albums elsewhere... 

B. Charge small fees for article downloads.  That will stop people from downloading an article several times for convenience as they will need to pay a small fee each time...

C. Restrict photo posting in each article to a limited amount/size...

BUT

Then to counteract this, have a membership option where you can be a fee paying member - and you get all of these nice extras.  Free album, free article downloads, less limited photo posting capability.

Finally, a yearly pen drive mightn't be a bad idea, much like the pen swap, but it costs a little bit to participate in the pen swap, thus effectively you are selling the pen to another forum member, but all proceeds to go keeping the site alive. [8D]

I hope that I haven't simply echoed what everyone else has said...  Better get back to work. [8)]

Cam


----------



## BigRob777

Hi All,
Well, I have the idea that we should try to support the site voluntarily (sp?).  If that doesn't seem to be working, then we should look at other means.  Dario had a great idea with his raffle.  It appears to have taken in enough money to keep this forum afloat for 3 months or more.  Kudos to you Dario and all who contributed.  

The bottom line is that we need to have enough cash coming in to maintain this forum.  If donations are not enough, then maybe we should administer some minor fees.  The folks here profit in many ways.  Some of us profit financially and everyone profits in learning and fellowship with other pen turners.  I know I won't be very popular with this, but if the donations don't work, I wouldn't mind paying a percentage of my sales to this site.  In fact, even if it doesn't become compulsary, if this forum keeps losing money, I would recommend that all sellers pay a small percent of their sales.  I'm willing to do that even though I'm on a tight budget.  I'm not trying to brag.  I just think that we need to do whatever it takes to keep this awesome forum afloat.  

I don't like to bring attention to myself, which is why I seldom post in topics like this, so please be gentle.[]

Your friend in turning,
Rob


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## low_48

Kinda late coming into this post, haven't been reading the polls section lately. I would like to see the classifieds carry a fee. Something like 10% of sales kicked back into the IAP. I would also suggest that certain discussion subjects can be sponsored by a business. They would be able to put their logo on that discussion (Say something like the finishing section sponsored by Minwax, just an example). We could also add another topic that would be sponsor news. This would be the only place their names show up. This would not hit us over the head with advertisement, but would also benefit the newbies with sources of supply. This would make a nice place for Nils to list his sales.Here's a link to another group that I am a member. It shows how this can work.
http://www.forestryforum.com/


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## opfoto

I voted for the donations. 
I have donated in the past, will continue to donate in the future as I can. But as another paycheck to paycheck survivor, I try to do what I can when I can. I am not a business, there is no tree in my yard. There is only so much to give. SO if a membership fee becomes required then obviously even my donations will eventually dwindle. Sorry.[V]


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## johncrane

Im only a new kid on the block but the way I see it .there is 2712 members shouldnt cost that much for a membership.down at local pub here its COST $2.60 for a pot of beer and we pay  $4.00 for one acrylic pen blank. and ninety bucks to fill the tank with petrol.we can go on and on forever but. at the end of day if you dont pay;your screwed. you will lose a great web  site , just my thoughs.  SUCH IS LIFE .from JC DOWN UNDER.I must go now to watch footy.cheers for now/ good luck with the out come.


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## timdaleiden

With as much traffic as you have here, it seems that targeted advertising would be the answer. There is no reason for you to foot the costs, unless you feel a compulsion to do so.

Charging fees seems wrong to me. There are other free sites that someone could just as easily visit instead. Most people can deal with ignoring ads that donâ€™t interest them. As long as the advertisers donâ€™t try to interfere with free exchange of opinions and information, I donâ€™t see a problem.


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## mdburn_em

Sometimes a guy (or a gal) has to be hitupside the head to cause them to pay attention to what's going on.  You're poll question did that to me.  I'm sorry to say I had not donated before but I did donate right before writing this post.  I'm going to digress a little.  Often preachers do not preach/teach about tithing because there have been a few (ok, alot) that just stuck the offering plate out every chance they got and that's all they care about.  By a preacher not teaching about a fundamental truth, he robs his parishners of becoming the Christians they are intended to be.  The analogy applies here because I passed over the donate link because I just didn't know.  Your post made me aware and I will regularly support this site.  I have gained so much in knowledge from you fine people, words cannot describe.  I will donate, or I will subscribe if that's what's decided...I <u><b>WILL</b></u> continue to be a part of this forum.  (Now if all you fine turners could just stop procrastinating and decide once and for all, what the best finish is, I would be happy.)
Sorry this is so long


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