# Jr. Gent and Jr. Statesman Concerns



## ericatcraft

I wanted to post a reply to many of the concerns that have come to our attention regarding the Jr. Gentlemen and Jr. Statesman pens.  First I want to thank all of you who have brought these issues to our attention and I also want to assure everyone that we are currently hand checking every single pen in our inventory to make sure that from here on all pens that are shipped are not defective.  If anyone has a pen that is defective or that you are not happy with for any reason please call our customer service center and weâ€™ll arrange for either an exchange or a complete refund.  

First, there has been a problem with some of our roller ball nibs and the ink refills.  The refill wonâ€™t quite fit through the nib.  We have determined that a step was skipped in the manufacturing process, the nibs were not polished before they were plated, consequently the inside diameter of the nib is slightly too small on some of the pens so the refill does not fit through.  We are happy to replace any nib that has this problem, a simple phone call to us and weâ€™ll mail you for free a replacement nib that you can thread on the pens you have.  If you already have a pen assembled and do not want to wait for a replacement part you can use a 3/32â€ drill bit to fix the problem.  Simply insert the bit and rotate it lightly by hand to ream the inside edge of the nib and the refill should fit just fine.  

Second: On a recent batch of Jr. gentlemen pens we found that a small percentage of them have had a problem with the nib coupler- it is a little too loose in the brass tube (can be inserted by hand).  This was a problem when this particular batch was machined and we are checking every pen before shipping so new pen orders should be free of this problem.  If you have a pen with this problem we are happy to send you a new coupler that will fit better.  Again, if you donâ€™t want to wait it is a simple fix to glue the part into the tube, we recommend using a thick CA glue and applying a very small amount to the inside of the tube before assembling the pen (with a toothpick, for example).  I know that many professional turners recommend gluing any part that has threads or tension from a spring to ensure that parts donâ€™t become loose over time- Dick Sing recommends this in his book Pens From The Wood Lathe.  

Third: We have also received feedback that the 27/64â€ drill bit is too large a bit for these pens and I wanted to address this as well.  This is the best drill bit we can find for this pen kit and here is why: as you know all species of wood drill slightly differently, some softer woods and materials drill slightly larger than a dense hardwood even with the exact same setup and drill.  If you get a smaller bit than the 27/64â€ bit we have found that harder woods, Cocobolo for example, may drill too small but the 27/64â€ is right on.   It is a matter of the best fit possible, with all materials possible to turn we feel it is best to recommend a bit that will slightly over drill some materials (and it is very slightly) than a bit that will leave the hole too small with other materials. I have personally made about a dozen of these pens (I realize that is very small time compared to most of you!) and have encountered no problems at all with this bit.  If the hole is a little large I have just used a drop or two more of glue and had no problem after that.  If you find that all the materials you use are ending up with a hole that is too large we can recommend a 10.5mm drill bit as the best fit for the tube.  I know this is a hard size to find but I have heard that MSC (www.mscdirect.com) sells them. 

Fourth:  Regarding the design of the roller ball nib for the Jr. Gentlemen and Statesman pens, I want to explain the reason for the change.  Before I do that I apologize that our website has not been updated with the new photo before today, that was a major oversight on our part and I understand that it is frustrating to order something and then get a different product than was pictured.  We are happy to give anyone an exchange for a different pen or a complete refund for any pens that you do not want due to our mistake- just call our customer service staff and theyâ€™ll take care of it for you.  I believe weâ€™ll have a new photo online today.  The reason the nibs were changed is largely due to the threading issues with earlier versions of the pen, the new nib lines up better and the cap is easier to thread onto the nib.  That is the main reason for the change- we wanted to improve the functionality of the pen by making the nib slightly larger.  The design is similar to other high end pens on the market.  In such publications as Penworld many high end pens are featured with a nib similar in style to our new nib.  Again I apologize for the web not being current as it should have been, please call us if you no longer want the pens you received and weâ€™ll either exchange or refund the pens no questions asked.

We appreciate all that forum members do to support Craft Supplies USA and assure you that we will continue to find ways to improve our products and services to you, our valued customers.


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## JimGo

Eric,
I have two words for you:  Thank you.  Thank you (and the rest of CSUSA) for the professional manner in which the feedback was received and handled, but most of all thank you for actually LISTENING.  Let's face it, although I'm sure CSUSA sells a LOT of pen kits every year, that market, compared to wood turning as a whole, consumer products, etc., is still relatively small.  I work with companies MUCH larger than CSUSA, most of whom do not have a designated indivdual (or individuals) who monitor and/or contribute to the various discussion forums that might discuss their products.  

Although some may not agree with design decisions, drill bit recommendations, etc., I appreciate that you are willing to come and discuss them with us.  I also really appreciate that you are willing to refer your customers to alternative sources for products that you could easily carry yourselves.

So, again, thank you!


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## Dario

Well said Jim.  I agree.


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## Randy_

Eric:  Can you tell us what the ODs are for the Jr Gent/Statesman pens, please?  As I recall, the recommended drill bit size by turners on this forum was for a 13/32" bit.

As to your recommendation of a 10.5mm drill bit, I am wondering if you guys tried a "Z" letter drill bit?  It is only 0.0004" smaller than a 10.5mm bit and many folks already have that particular size in their drill bit sets.

You might also note that there is a thread running on TPS that suggests a 10.6mm bit is a better choice for the Sierra kit so don't think that CSUSA is the only manufacturer to have this type of problem.


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## bob393

Well said.


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## DCBluesman

Eric - this reply is not aimed at you as you are just the messenger.  What I'm hoping is that you will make sure that Ben and the executives see that all is not happy in pen turner land.  

Ok, there's one like me in every crowd.  Did everybody drink the Kool-Aid this afternoon?  First off, the pictures are still wrong.  Next, these kits are far too expensive and have been out for a while, so I'm not thrilled to hear that you are having to go back through a quality check.  Also, and this part sounds like the Rex and Ben story, that nib doesn't look much like anything I see in the past three issues or Pen World, including the Preview Issue, or in Stylus.  Bullet-shaped, yes, but these holders have a coronal ridge for crying out loud!  Come on, guys.  Don't pee on my shoes and tell me it's raining.  

The only part of this answer that is the least bit satisfying is that I can get my money back.  I'll be going through my kits and calling customer service, all of whom are delightful to deal with.


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## gerryr

I appreciate your response and, like Lou, understand you are only the messenger.  Take it for what it's worth, but I will not be purchasing any more Jr. Gentleman or Jr. Statesman or Jr. Emperor rollerballs as long as the nib looks like it does.  Fountain pens yes, rollerballs no.  That means of course that I will be purchasing more Baron rollerballs.  I feel like we've all been blind-sided by the design change.  We are the customers and it seems to me that it would have been better for everyone if we had been given an opportunity to comment on the new design before we suddenly started getting them without any warning whatsoever.  As far as the threading issue leading to the design change, I don't buy that.  I have made quite a few Jr. Statesman rollerballs and never had one single problem with the threads on the nib coupler.  The threading issue could have easily been corrected without changing the design.


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## Firefyter-emt

And yet, the only part I have had break on my Jr. Statesman is the thread coupler. [!] I sure hope the replacement come's in before Christmas..

I mentioned the photos in my post about the fountain pen nibs being wrong too. There are probably well over a hundred pen turners here that could take photos good enough to be in the catalogs and would be thrilled beyond belief to have "their" photo in the next issue. Heck, a "new kit give away" to the best photo would even be a cool PR move, but to have the same old wrong photos print after print is just wrong. I realize that we may not have a big say in the design change itself, but there is a vast resource you guys could tap into to make the photos AND descriptions to reflect what is in print, and without excuse, on the website. I understand that you can't recall magazines because there was a change, but the website should reflect the proper kit.

Funny thing, the refrence to the nib style has been mentioned to my wife before too. (who has a purple Corian Jr. Gent herself.)


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## Ron Mc

Eric...First I would like to say that I am impressed that you posted your post.

Now in regards to the new nib. Neither my customers or I had any problems with the threading issue on the JG II or JS II threads. The problem had already been solved with the insert.

Please let the decision makers know that they have made an error in the new design. To me it almost looks like they wanted to create a new nib that resembled the "cartridge" fad that hit about 6 months ago.

[edit in]
One more question. When CSU decided to no longer offer the posting (threaded) bottom for the JGII as a separate SKU # this eliminated to opportunity to sell the JSII with the posting bottom. You may want to consider offering the JSII the same way that the JGII is offered. Either with a tapered or threaded bottom. Or let us purchase the threaded bottoms again.[]


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## Monty

Eric,
First I would like to echo the statements above about CSUSA listening to our complaints and your taking the time to answer. 
Second, I would offer the same statement that Ron Mc posted about a posting bottom for the  JSII. I've had lost several sales because the customer wanted a pen that posts. Please consider to at least offer the option of purchasing the the threaded bottom for the JSII separately.


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## Mikey

Ron, gotta agree there. Each time I order something, I always tried to order a few extra ends just in case someone wanted something different.

As far as the other stuff goes, I don't know why any changes because the original ones worked fine as far as I could tell. I didn't have any problems with mine.

If anything, i'd like to see CSUSA offer barrel trimmers for all these different tube sizes they now have. It's a total PIA trying to get CA out of the tube when the reamer is undersize.


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## Skye

Man, you guys rock.

All I want to know is; When will you start <b>chrome plating</b> the Jr Gents for monetarily challenged folks like myself?


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## Ligget

I have to agree with all of the above statements too, I used to think of CS USA as one of the best.
But the are steadily getting worse.[V]


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## TAld

Skye - you mentioned "monetarily challenged" but I have lost a couple of sells because the customer wanted chrome and it was unavailable for that item. Pen and Pencil were available in chrome but not the letter opener or perfume atomizer (all for the wife) for gift. I wish ALL "kits" came in all the different plating. Would it be that difficult or expensive for a company to provide?


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## Randy_

> _Originally posted by TAld_
> <br />Would it be that difficult or expensive for a company to provide?



Short answer is yes.  One of the major expenses that most businesses have to deal with is that of inventory  Simply put, they are only going to stock what sells......in sufficient quantity for them to make a profit.     Inventory that just sits on the shelves is a big problem.  

I'm sure CSUSA would put out a chrome version if they thought there was sufficient demand.......for example everyone wanted a really nice high end kit and out came the Emperor.  Send your emails to CSUSA and let them know what you want.  If enough people do that, I'm sure you will see a response.


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## Skye

> _Originally posted by TAld_
> <br />Skye - you mentioned "monetarily challenged" but I have lost a couple of sells because the customer wanted chrome and it was unavailable for that item.



I think we're talking about the same thing. I cant afford Rhodium plating on a JrGent, so I think chrome would be a nice, affordable alternative and more durable than 24 or 10K gold.


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## rtgleck

Eric,

  Thanks for acknowledging responses and comments here are being heard and taken into consideration.  Hopefully the information above will also be passed on, but wanted to at least thank you for ensuring comments here are being addressed.


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## Firefyter-emt

Honestly, this is one kit I would rather not see in chrome. Only because there would be ones out there "cheaper" but look just the same as the rhoidum to the standard user. That alone could drive the higher sales market down. Lower price would be nice though.



> _Originally posted by Skye_
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> _Originally posted by TAld_
> <br />Skye - you mentioned "monetarily challenged" but I have lost a couple of sells because the customer wanted chrome and it was unavailable for that item.
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> I think we're talking about the same thing. I cant afford Rhodium plating on a JrGent, so I think chrome would be a nice, affordable alternative and more durable than 24 or 10K gold.
Click to expand...


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## LanceD

> All I want to know is; When will you start <b>chrome plating</b> the Jr Gents for monetarily challenged folks like myself?



Why not try the chrome Baron ? On sale from AS is around 6.80. Not a bad price considering all of the issues with thr Jr Gents.


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## TAld

Skye----Your right, we are on the same page with this one.[^]


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## gerryr

I agree with Lance, chrome Barons are not expensive and good looking pens.


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## Jim in Oakville

Thanks Eric,
I appreciate the well written post and I support many of the comments here on the design changes and also the issue with the 27/64 drill.

All Said Life moves on, I only use the rhodium kits, they sell well, I have had issues with new and old stock mixed in a pen kit package ... it's  pain to call for replacement parts but I am glad that you get them to me quickly..
Thumbs Up Buddy!


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## Mikey

> _Originally posted by gerryr_
> <br />I agree with Lance, chrome Barons are not expensive and good looking pens.



There's a reason that some people would rather not buy the Baron pens. If you've been reading long enough here, you know why.


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## LanceD

> _Originally posted by Mikey_
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> _Originally posted by gerryr_
> <br />I agree with Lance, chrome Barons are not expensive and good looking pens.
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> There's a reason that some people would rather not buy the Baron pens. If you've been reading long enough here, you know why.
Click to expand...


It's a little hard to keep track of who doesn't get along with who around here.


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## bradbn4

The real funny part of this mess - when I bought my first Baron - I thought it had the same tip as the Jr. Statesman. Because I had already picked up 50 Barons - I was holding off the the Jr Gent / Jr Statesman until I used up more of my extras. 

Now I wish I had bought my JGII/JSII a few months ago for these issues came up with the redesign.  I jumped in on the group order - picked up 24 pens + extra bushings, bunches of tubes so I could go whole hog.  I guess that money could have better spent on buying more Baron pen kits when they were on sale.

If I were to rate tip design â€“ I like the the old style JSII, second would be the Barons.  The new design of the Jr Gent reminds me of one of the pen tips from a Fisher space pen â€“ but only uglier - and it would rate a distant 4th. (Yes I know that there was no 3rd place)

 I find that the chrome plating works well and I have found that the Baron Satin Nickel is another good finish that fits in with  tiger maple wood.  Both are on the Baron's low end price scale â€“ but are durable finish.

Bradbn4 - having fun in Colorado


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## airrat

> _Originally posted by LanceD_
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> _Originally posted by Mikey_
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> _Originally posted by gerryr_
> <br />I agree with Lance, chrome Barons are not expensive and good looking pens.
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> There's a reason that some people would rather not buy the Baron pens. If you've been reading long enough here, you know why.
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> Click to expand...
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> It's a little hard to keep track of who doesn't get along with who around here.
Click to expand...


LOL


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## les-smith

> _Originally posted by bradbn4_
> <br />I jumped in on the group order - picked up 24 pens + extra bushings, bunches of tubes so I could go whole hog.  I guess that money could have better spent on buying more Baron pen kits when they were on sale.



Hey bradbn4, are you planning on sending them back.  I'm kind of in the same boat.  And, as it stands now, I think I'm going to send them back and go with the Baron.


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## KC

I just put together the last two 'old' JrStatesman II kits I had.  I'd forgotten how much I like the looks of it. []

I'm kind of curious as to why people are looking for 'cheaper' alternatives for the high-end kits... especially when I see some of the prices folks are getting for them.  If you can get a chrome JSII kit for $5 less than rhodium, are you gonna drop your asking price by $5, or put the $5 in your pocket?  I know the margin on a slimline can be 'slim' and you might go chrome to increase volume... but is anybody selling JSIIs cheap enough that $5 is going to make or break a purchase?

KC


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## Rifleman1776

Eric, like the others, I thank you and the CS staff for responding. It is certainly helpful to have a link with one of our major suppliers.
However, I must respond to your comments.
Items # 1 & 2: These are quality control issues and by your words, CS admits the defects. Kits with these defects should never have been shipped. These are premium kits and very costly. Many here are familiar with manufacturing costs and understand that the profit margin for CS is quite substantial. We (and any customer) deserves better. Shipping defective merchandise does not speak well for the company.
Item #3: There may be disagreement on this issue. But I, for one, disagree with the finding. A hole is a hole is a hole. Like others, I've drilled a bunch of holes in different woods, if I want a certain size hole I use the drill of that size. If the situation is as you (CS) states, why don't we have one or two, or three, different bits reccomended for each kit? Filling an oversize hole with glue is not craftmanship, it is sloppy and unnecessary, or should be. CS needs to revisit this issue. I, for one, am not happy with this deliberate incorrect reccomendation.
Item #4: I think the new nib is ugly, not worthy of a premium pen kit. But, I guess we are stuck with it. Sales will dictate it's future.


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## Skye

> _Originally posted by KC_
> <br />I just put together the last two 'old' JrStatesman II kits I had.  I'd forgotten how much I like the looks of it. []
> 
> I'm kind of curious as to why people are looking for 'cheaper' alternatives for the high-end kits... especially when I see some of the prices folks are getting for them.  If you can get a chrome JSII kit for $5 less than rhodium, are you gonna drop your asking price by $5, or put the $5 in your pocket?  I know the margin on a slimline can be 'slim' and you might go chrome to increase volume... but is anybody selling JSIIs cheap enough that $5 is going to make or break a purchase?
> 
> KC



It's also a matter of giving pens away. When you are like me and have given away 75% of your pens, every dollar counts.


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## ed4copies

Frank,

Relative to margins, BOY, DO I AGREE WITH YOU!!!

Related to drill bits, I decided long ago - Instructions are suggestions, not commandments.  Mike the tube, pick the bit, drill the hole and test.  REPEAT.

While I could write a long diatribe about these kits, face it CSUSA handles their disasters as they arise.  They will have no reason to LISTEN to these threads UNLESS SALES GO DOWN, precipitously would be good!

They are profit-driven!  This is NOT a condemnation, it's a statement of fact.  And they are very well versed in public relations, and problem-"solving".  They can make you feel really good cause they solved all your problems, WHICH THEY CREATED IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!  The fact they are so experienced at this indicates they repeatedly allow crap to be shipped.

So, continue to praise them.  My feeling is they have far too little competition.  If there were better alternatives, MANY of their kits would be abandoned.  THEN, quality control would improve.

FWIW (I only buy a couple hundred kits a year).[:0]


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## Randy_

> _Originally posted by Rifleman1776_
> <br />.....I, for one, am not happy with this deliberate incorrect reccomendation.....



I don't have any particular attachment to CSUSA and we all know Frank has a bug in his..#### about the issue of drill sizes.  That being said, Frank, I think it is pretty irresponsible to state that CSUSA is deliberately recommending incorrect drill sizes unless you have some proof to back up the charge.  There is no doubt that a few of their drill bit recommendations might not be the best; but to suggest that they made deliberately erroneous recommendations is pretty disrespectful(maybe even libelous) unless you can back up your charges with proof.  I'm pretty sure Eric won't want to "call" you on the charge for obvious reasons; but I am under no such limitation.  I, for one, think an apology is in order.....again.....unless you have proof of wrong doing. [V][V]


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## bradbn4

> _Originally posted by KC_
> <br />I just put together the last two 'old' JrStatesman II kits I had.  I'd forgotten how much I like the looks of it. []
> 
> I'm kind of curious as to why people are looking for 'cheaper' alternatives for the high-end kits... especially when I see some of the prices folks are getting for them.  If you can get a chrome JSII kit for $5 less than rhodium, are you gonna drop your asking price by $5, or put the $5 in your pocket?  I know the margin on a slimline can be 'slim' and you might go chrome to increase volume... but is anybody selling JSIIs cheap enough that $5 is going to make or break a purchase?
> 
> KC



Simple - the tip design - but I am being a bit funny.  While I like the JSII old tip design better than the Baron - I love the many platings that the Baron is offered in...and I discovered the Baron before I found out about the JSII. . .

I may make 100 pens a year - I don't try to sell them - most I give away as gifts.  The few that I do sell them - well - it keeps me in new sharp lathe tools.

Not to get into why you price something like that - I use a rule of 3x the cost of goods + 20 dollars. .. so if the hardware cost 15 - I would price it at 45+20 = 65

So if the hardware cost another 5 dollars - I charge an extra 15 - more from the stocking of the more expensive pen kits. (or - this was the only way I could figure out what I should charge other than because I liked that number  [8D] )

This rule is for simple designs, simple lathe & finish work.  If the work is complex and takes me 3 or 4 pen blanks to get the job done - that cost and labor needs to be accounted for.  

Bradbn4


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## mdburn_em

Very interesting thread.  I definitely appreciate a company that at least communicates with it's customers.  I was thinking about trying some of the jr kits and now I'm glad I read this.  I'll probably stick with the Barons until I see more of a thumbs up from this savy, rowdy, crowd.  As far as competition goes, I'm very interested in the new, high end pen that PSI is bringing out.  Has anyone else seen the pictures for this?  If PSI starts tapping into the high end pen kits, we may have a viable alternative when one or the other (organization) thumbs its nose at it's customers.


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## woodpens

Eric - Thank you for addressing our concerns. I have a lot of respect for CSU for maintaining this contact.

Like Frank, I am disappointed in the accuracy of the recommended drill bits. I would take it a step further and state that kits should be designed around normal standards, whether it be standard, imperial or metric sizes. Needing a 10.5 or 10.6 mm bit just makes no sense to me.

The Jr. Statesman was my favorite kit before the nib change. The Jr. Gent was my second favorite. I can tell you, without a doubt, I will not purchase another one of either kit with this ugly nib. The Baron beats them hands down since the nib was changed. I sell between $25k and $40k worth of pens per year. If CSU returns to a non-bullet shaped nib, my business will return. I realize my business doesn't put much of a dent in the market, but there are a lot of people who feel as I do.

Please give us a nib that doesn't look obscene. Thanks.


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## Mikey

> _Originally posted by Rifleman1776_
> <br />Item #3: There may be disagreement on this issue. But I, for one, disagree with the finding. A hole is a hole is a hole. Like others, I've drilled a bunch of holes in different woods, if I want a certain size hole I use the drill of that size. If the situation is as you (CS) states, why don't we have one or two, or three, different bits reccomended for each kit? Filling an oversize hole with glue is not craftmanship, it is sloppy and unnecessary, or should be. CS needs to revisit this issue. I, for one, am not happy with this deliberate incorrect reccomendation.




I would have to disagee completely with this statement and go with Eric's. There have been many times where I would be making several of the same type of pen at one time in both acrylic, wood, and resin. I have found that the holes even when drilled with the same bit will be of different sizes when you insert the tubes. In fact, i have found that I need to use thick CS when glueing resin tubes for Sierras, (even after painting the tubes and inside of he blank) but can only use a medium or thin when doing blanks like Cocobolo because the tube has little clearance to start with. This is also true with every other pen that I have made in different combinations. 

Also as said before me, you are a penmaker and yu should be the one sizing your drill bit to fit the material. CS can give us all a starting point, and that is normally just fine for the person who makes a few pens for fun, but if you are going to sell them or make a living off of them, you should know enough to do some leg work yourself and make notes of what works well in what material.


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## Rifleman1776

> _Originally posted by Randy__
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> _Originally posted by Rifleman1776_
> <br />.....I, for one, am not happy with this deliberate incorrect reccomendation.....
> 
> 
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> 
> I don't have any particular attachment to CSUSA and we all know Frank has a bug in his..#### about the issue of drill sizes.  That being said, Frank, I think it is pretty irresponsible to state that CSUSA is deliberately recommending incorrect drill sizes unless you have some proof to back up the charge.  There is no doubt that a few of their drill bit recommendations might not be the best; but to suggest that they made deliberately erroneous recommendations is pretty disrespectful(maybe even libelous) unless you can back up your charges with proof.  I'm pretty sure Eric won't want to "call" you on the charge for obvious reasons; but I am under no such limitation.  I, for one, think an apology is in order.....again.....unless you have proof of wrong doing. [V][V]
Click to expand...


They know their reccomendation makes an oversize hole. That is deliberate.
Their other kits generally reccomend a proper bit size.
No apology needed from this end.


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## Rifleman1776

> _Originally posted by Mikey_
> <br />
> 
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> _Originally posted by Rifleman1776_
> <br />Item #3: There may be disagreement on this issue. But I, for one, disagree with the finding. A hole is a hole is a hole. Like others, I've drilled a bunch of holes in different woods, if I want a certain size hole I use the drill of that size. If the situation is as you (CS) states, why don't we have one or two, or three, different bits reccomended for each kit? Filling an oversize hole with glue is not craftmanship, it is sloppy and unnecessary, or should be. CS needs to revisit this issue. I, for one, am not happy with this deliberate incorrect reccomendation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I would have to disagee completely with this statement and go with Eric's. There have been many times where I would be making several of the same type of pen at one time in both acrylic, wood, and resin. I have found that the holes even when drilled with the same bit will be of different sizes when you insert the tubes. In fact, i have found that I need to use thick CS when glueing resin tubes for Sierras, (even after painting the tubes and inside of he blank) but can only use a medium or thin when doing blanks like Cocobolo because the tube has little clearance to start with. This is also true with every other pen that I have made in different combinations.
> 
> Also as said before me, you are a penmaker and yu should be the one sizing your drill bit to fit the material. CS can give us all a starting point, and that is normally just fine for the person who makes a few pens for fun, but if you are going to sell them or make a living off of them, you should know enough to do some leg work yourself and make notes of what works well in what material.
Click to expand...


I have made a total of 3 1/2 non-wood pens so can't speak to sizes varying with synthetics.
I do sell mine but not to the point of making a living, for whatever that is worth or means.
I drill holes for things other than pens. I choose the drill bit size for the size hole I want without regard to the material. Have never had a problem with over/undersize holes in different materials.
Usually, with CS kits, and those from other manufacturers, the drill bit size reccomended is the correct one.
That they reccomend an oversize bit for just one kit then excuse it off with a "different materials" story is simply not right. It is inconsistent with their normal polcies and emerges as hogwash.
What they are doing is casting doubt on all their reccomendations as well as those of all other pen kit and tool suppliers. As it stands now, with their highly debatable reccomendation, when starting with a new kit, we must now buy a kit, or several, measure the tube then make a drill bit size choice before making pens. A beginner does not know this and gets stuck with oversize holes that need to be glopped up with glue and, perhaps, unsatisfactory results.
I belive that a test would be interesting. Choose a drill bit, almost any size used for pens, and drill into a variety of materials and woods then measure very carefully the ID. I suspect the differences would be so infinitesimal as to be near zero. In fact, CS, as the supplier, should do this before reccomending a bit size if they had such a concern.
BTW, I'm not happy with them about this issue but I still am a fan of the company in general and will continue to do business with them. Including buying kits of the style under discussion.


----------



## Firefyter-emt

BTW.. unless you have mic'd your bits to see if THEY are what you think, it's hard to go off saying that THEY are wrong. Try it sometime, drill holes and measure, and measure your bits too. Mine are from Woodcraft and they are no where near the exact size listed.


----------



## Randy_

How is this for an idea??  

Lots of folks have bitched about the issue of pen kits "apparently" being designed without regard for how well they "fit" with existing, commonly available fractional drill bits and how it seems that every new kit requires some new size bit.  But I am not sure anyone has ever put the question "DIRECTLY" to a manufacturer??  Think that after the holiday rush has passed, I will formulate a question on the subject, send it directly to each of the 3 big pen manufacturers and ask them to reply, publicly, on IAP.

By the way, has anyone else ever noticed that Berea kits mostly require letter bits, CSUSA requires mostly fractional bits and PSI requires mostly metric bits. Not sure if it has any significance; but it interesting.  I also noticed that PSI seems to require fewer different sizes of bits than the other guys relative to the number of different kits available.  After the first of the year, think I will count the kits and count the bits and see who really does have the most commonality as far as bit sizes.....might be interesting.....might just be busy work?? 

One thing that everyone should remember is that a wide variety of bit sizes implies a wide variety of types of kits.  If we limited our kits to tubes that required only three or four drill bit sizes, the selection of kits might be pretty limited...and boring??


----------



## Rifleman1776

> _Originally posted by Firefyter-emt_
> <br />BTW.. unless you have mic'd your bits to see if THEY are what you think, it's hard to go off saying that THEY are wrong. Try it sometime, drill holes and measure, and measure your bits too. Mine are from Woodcraft and they are no where near the exact size listed.



I have a wide varitey of bits from an equally wide variety of sources. Many I inherited that are 50-70 years old. This would make an interesting exercise. After the holidays, I will measure a couple of the more widely used sizes. I suspect near zero variation.


----------



## DCBluesman

Randy - I think it's a question worth asking, BUT, I actually think the newest additions to the Berea and CS USA product line have been fairly startard.  (Not singling out PSI but I don't have enough experience to comment on them.)The Sedona uses the same tubes, bits and bushings as the Baron.  The Sierra Vista uses the same tubes and bits as the Sierra, required only the purchase of a new set of bushings.  The Junior's (Gent, Statesman, Emp) all use the same tubes and bits and several share the same bushings.

I agree that the older kits tend to suffer from the problem, but retooling for these styles, particularly when we are clamoring for them to invest in new designs, is probably not a practical matter.

There is a partial solution to this problem and it is not terribly expensive.  Harbor Freight has a set of bits that covers most of our needs for metric, SAE and letter bits.  The exceptions that cannot be handled with one of these bits can probably be counted on the fingers of one hand.  I'm just not following the problem with "wierd" bit sizes.  After all, most of us tell folks that our pens are "custom" and "one of a kind".  Well, it takes some tools to really DO that.  In my (never) humble opinion.


----------



## woodpens

I'm glad CSU's customer service department is not made up of IAP members. We'd all be screwed.

I agree that the material can make a difference in the clearance of a hole. For example, using the recommended bit size for the cap of the Havana rollerball pen commonly requires me to ream out the hole some with a round file. However, if the wood is Cocobolo or another rosewood, the tube slips through the hole with no problem. Maybe this is a result of the wood expanding inside the hole after drilling. This problem is seen in a handful of different kits from CSU and Berea. 

My preference would be that the manufacturers use a given wood type or material to determine the recommended drill bit size. That way we would know what kind of clearances to expect when we buy a new kit and the recommended bit for it. I realize that I work for an industry with high standards, but this is not rocket science. If you can actually hear the tube rattle inside the barrel when shaken, you have an unacceptable clearance.


----------



## redfishsc

The Jr Gent instruction sheet I just recieved earlier in the month indicated using a 25/64th drill bit (too small). The Catalog indicates a 27/64th. Both are WRONG I don't care what they say.

I drilled several types of woods with that bit and they were all too tight to fit the tube in, so I had to redrill them. I blew up a VERY NICE manzanita root burl. I called them and recommended to them that a Z drill bit, as Randy noted, will do the trick very nicely. They also are replacing the blank with an amboyna. 

I had the same problem with the Big Gent--- the instruction sheet had me use to big of a drill bit and I wound up blowing through the blank at the end when turning. That was a while back. I also had a problem with the ONLY TWO GENTS I ordered, one of them was missing parts. 

Good customer service, pathetic logistics in the instructions, kit packaging, and consistency. They are trying. I'm sure part of the problem is the fact that the kits are all imports, and we all know that China only makes QUALITY AND CONSISTENT products now don't we?[!]. If we ever wind up going to war against them I hope all their ammo is Grizzly ammo and all our ammo is good ol' MADE IN........ Germany or Japan.


Moral of the story: check all your parts to make sure you got them all before proceeding, make sure the drill they recommend is the right size, and call them and tell them politely but frankly when you find a problem, they will take care of you.


----------



## Randy_

> _.....There is a partial solution to this problem and it is not terribly expensive.  Harbor Freight has a set of bits that covers most of our needs for <b>metric</b>, SAE and letter bits....._


_

Last time I checked, HF did not sell metric drill bits??  They do sell a 115 bit set for about $80 which, I suspect, is the set Lou is alluding to.  That set has fractional bits in 1/64" increments to 1/2", number bits 1-60 and letter bits A-Z.  Think you will have to go elsewhere for metric bits._


----------



## bradbn4

One thing I try out on pen kits I have not made before is to use a scrap lumber and test drill - pull out a tube and check the fit.  

Also as I drill out each blank - I take a tube - and see how it fits.  I don't use CA (I use a poly glue) - so I want a bit loser fit to allow the glue to expand when drying.  I have found that doing back to back drilling out different wood - one time of wood would always be tight - while the other had no issues.  Same drill bit, same tube.  Right now I have the Bill B AS special - picked up the monster can of Norseman drill bits - I also have the HF bit set just encase I needed in a off size.


----------



## Mudder

> _Originally posted by Rifleman1776_
> <br />
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Originally posted by Mikey_
> <br />
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Originally posted by Rifleman1776_
> <br />Item #3: There may be disagreement on this issue. But I, for one, disagree with the finding. A hole is a hole is a hole. Like others, I've drilled a bunch of holes in different woods, if I want a certain size hole I use the drill of that size. If the situation is as you (CS) states, why don't we have one or two, or three, different bits reccomended for each kit? Filling an oversize hole with glue is not craftmanship, it is sloppy and unnecessary, or should be. CS needs to revisit this issue. I, for one, am not happy with this deliberate incorrect reccomendation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I would have to disagee completely with this statement and go with Eric's. There have been many times where I would be making several of the same type of pen at one time in both acrylic, wood, and resin. I have found that the holes even when drilled with the same bit will be of different sizes when you insert the tubes. In fact, i have found that I need to use thick CS when glueing resin tubes for Sierras, (even after painting the tubes and inside of he blank) but can only use a medium or thin when doing blanks like Cocobolo because the tube has little clearance to start with. This is also true with every other pen that I have made in different combinations.
> 
> Also as said before me, you are a penmaker and yu should be the one sizing your drill bit to fit the material. CS can give us all a starting point, and that is normally just fine for the person who makes a few pens for fun, but if you are going to sell them or make a living off of them, you should know enough to do some leg work yourself and make notes of what works well in what material.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I have made a total of 3 1/2 non-wood pens so can't speak to sizes varying with synthetics.
> I do sell mine but not to the point of making a living, for whatever that is worth or means.
> I drill holes for things other than pens. I choose the drill bit size for the size hole I want without regard to the material. Have never had a problem with over/undersize holes in different materials.
> Usually, with CS kits, and those from other manufacturers, the drill bit size reccomended is the correct one.
> That they reccomend an oversize bit for just one kit then excuse it off with a "different materials" story is simply not right. It is inconsistent with their normal polcies and emerges as hogwash.
> What they are doing is casting doubt on all their reccomendations as well as those of all other pen kit and tool suppliers. As it stands now, with their highly debatable reccomendation, when starting with a new kit, we must now buy a kit, or several, measure the tube then make a drill bit size choice before making pens. A beginner does not know this and gets stuck with oversize holes that need to be glopped up with glue and, perhaps, unsatisfactory results.
> I belive that a test would be interesting. Choose a drill bit, almost any size used for pens, and drill into a variety of materials and woods then measure very carefully the ID. I suspect the differences would be so infinitesimal as to be near zero. In fact, CS, as the supplier, should do this before reccomending a bit size if they had such a concern.
> BTW, I'm not happy with them about this issue but I still am a fan of the company in general and will continue to do business with them. Including buying kits of the style under discussion.
Click to expand...


Gee Frank,

I see you've done your research again.

Here is a little quote from Precision Twist Drill.

(By the way folks, they make drills and I would bet they speak with much more authority that Frank does)

{quote}

 Drills will normally cut a hole larger in diameter than the drill itself.The amount depends upon the rigidity of the equipment, stiffness of the drill, accuracy of the point, the material being drilled, and many other contributing factors. However, averaging all factors, the charge below shows what might be expected with standard drills without guide bushings in steel or cast iron using good drilling practices and reasonable care in the resharpening of the drills.

Drills as received from our factory will usually drill hole sizes between the minimum and mean lines. Reconditioned drills, however, may produce hole sizes between the minimum and maximum lines depending upon drill wear, margin pick-up, and accuracy of resharpening. {end quote}

http://www.precisiontwistdrill.com/techhelp/help_pages/diameter_of_drills.asp

There is a nice little chart at the bottom that gives you a rough ides of what to expect but it has been said that wood WILL drill differently; just as steel and aluminum drill differently.

Drill bits are mass produced and even though quality control is tight there is rarely two bits produced side by side that will drill the exact same hole diameter. That's why tolerances were introduced.


----------



## Randy_

Very interesting link, Scott!!  Thanks.  

I found this particular comment very germane to the discussion:


> It must be remembered that a twist drill is a roughing tool that may be expected to drill slightly oversize and that some variations in the size of the tapping holes are almost inevitable. When a closer control of the hole size is required it must be reamed. Reaming is recommended for the larger thread diameters and for some fine pitch threads.



Also noted that for bits in the size range we use for pens, the mean of the oversized holes is 6.5-8 thousandths.  (I assume those figures are for steel or some other matal and can't be sure they apply to wood?)  That is a pretty large difference in light of the fact most drill bit recommendations are already about 0.01" over the tube diameter.

Just for grins, I visited the shop and measured up a few of my most commonly used pencrafting drill bits.....not cheap Wal-Mart or HF  bits,  BTW.  I don't know what size holes they produce; but I can tell you the bits all measured 2-3 thousandths under their stated sizes.     

Guess what I am beginning to realize is the drill bits I assumed were highly accurate and precise tools, really aren't!![:0][:0]


----------



## Mudder

> _Originally posted by Randy__
> <br />
> Guess what I am beginning to realize is the drill bits I assumed were highly accurate and precise tools, really aren't!![:0][:0]



A machinist will tell you that if you need an accurate hole it is either reamed or bored.


----------



## gerryr

I never look at the instructions for recommended bit size.  I measure the tube with calipers and select a drill bit that's as close to being .005" larger as I have.  Why does everyone get so upset about recommended bit size when it's easy to measure the tube?


----------



## redfishsc

> _Originally posted by gerryr_
> <br />I never look at the instructions for recommended bit size.  I measure the tube with calipers and select a drill bit that's as close to being .005" larger as I have.  Why does everyone get so upset about recommended bit size when it's easy to measure the tube?



Gerry, good philosophy that, in light of this entire thread, I am adopting. 

But to answer your question as to why our underwear is all in a wad over the issue is that most rookies, like myself only being a pen maker for a year or two, will _order a specific pen kit, which invariably has some odd-freakin drill bit size, and then order that drill bit(s) the same time._ Ie, it's a way for the mfrs. to make more cash. I personally think this is part of the reason why they make kits that use such freakish sizes--- so those without large drill collections or are plum lazy[:I] will just order their bit along with the kit. And then end mill sizes, specific mandrel sizes, yadda stinkin' yadda.  


Mind you, I did buy the HF 115 bit kit which will suite pretty much EVERY pen kit out there that uses a bit under 1/2". 

And again, I will be adopting your practice of just measuring the tubes and using whatever bit looks right--- thanks for the .005" suggestion.


----------



## woodpens

> _Originally posted by gerryr_
> <br />I never look at the instructions for recommended bit size.  I measure the tube with calipers and select a drill bit that's as close to being .005" larger as I have.  Why does everyone get so upset about recommended bit size when it's easy to measure the tube?



Maybe it is because not all of us are retired or have unlimited time on our hands. If I order a new style of kit and go to the expense of adding the recommeneded accessories (bushings and bits) from the manufacturer, I am of the belief that I should be able to go to the shop that evening after work and make a pen. If I drill the hole and the tube is significantly smaller than the hole or won't even fit into it, I'm not a happy customer. Then, if I look at my 120+ different sized bits (1/2" and smaller) and find that the needed size is something like 10.6 mm, I am more than unhappy. This isn't rocket science, guys! It is simple quality control.


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## gerryr

I am neither retired nor do I have unlimited time available.  I only measure the tubes for any given kit once and I write it on a chart by my drill press.  The amount of time it takes to measure the tubes once is microscopic in the long run.


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## woodpens

> _Originally posted by gerryr_
> <br />I am neither retired nor do I have unlimited time available.  I only measure the tubes for any given kit once and I write it on a chart by my drill press.  The amount of time it takes to measure the tubes once is microscopic in the long run.



I agree that it takes no time to measure the tubes. The time I am referring to is from the time I have the kits in hand till I am able to actually start making that kit. Do you REALLY think that the manufacturers should not be accurate in their recommendation abd the bit they include in their accessories kits?


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## gerryr

I'm not saying they shouldn't be accurate, I just don't pay any attention to their recommendations.


----------



## Trapshooter

> _Originally posted by Randy__
> <br />
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _.....There is a partial solution to this problem and it is not terribly expensive.  Harbor Freight has a set of bits that covers most of our needs for <b>metric</b>, SAE and letter bits....._
> 
> 
> 
> _
> 
> Last time I checked, HF did not sell metric drill bits??  They do sell a 115 bit set for about $80 which, I suspect, is the set Lou is alluding to.  That set has fractional bits in 1/64" increments to 1/2", number bits 1-60 and letter bits A-Z.  Think you will have to go elsewhere for metric bits.
> _
Click to expand...

_
/
/
Santa may bring this to me[]http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=528_


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## woodpens

It is a great drill bit set to have.


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## redfishsc

You don't necessarily need a metric drill bit set if you have the 115 bit set, there should be one in there that will work for you. 


I follow Russ Fairfield's advice on drilling and glueing--- I use urethane glue since it expands. I do not think it's as strong as CA or epoxy but a bit better at gap filling and "centering" a blank in a slightly oversized hole. I haven't found a kit yet that I couldn't use a letter drill bit or a 64th fractional and work just fine.


----------



## Monty

I've been following this thread closely but one thing I haven't seen yet is just how much oversized the hole should be from the tube to give maximum holding power for the glue. Now I know it can vary depending on which type of glue you use, but in MHO, if the tube and hole are too close to the same, then the glue would be wiped off the tube when inserting the tube and this would lead to inadiquate bonding leading to blowout. 

Also as several have stated, I have started miking my tubes and selecting a bit just oversized to use. Yes, it takes time, maybe a minute or two, but I normally do my glueups in groups of the same style pen at one time. 

Someone also mentioned looking for a set of metric bits. I just got a set of these brad points for around $15. http://www.alloutind.com/ Look under liquidation for the 25 piece metric bradpoint set or what looks like the same set here http://www.mlcswoodworking.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/smarthtml/pages/drlbrad.html 
The only diference I can see is one includes shiopping and one doesn't


----------



## bradbn4

> _Originally posted by les-smith_
> <br />
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Originally posted by bradbn4_
> <br />I jumped in on the group order - picked up 24 pens + extra bushings, bunches of tubes so I could go whole hog.  I guess that money could have better spent on buying more Baron pen kits when they were on sale.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hey bradbn4, are you planning on sending them back.  I'm kind of in the same boat.  And, as it stands now, I think I'm going to send them back and go with the Baron.
Click to expand...


Based on the high res photo's I have seen - I hate to say it - I will have to return it.  Not sure what if anything I will get in it's place.  I have heard rumblings - but no hard facts that other pens that they sell will have the new tip.  

Given a choice - I would love the old style; not sure if I want to try to find anyone who is willing to trade - - right now there is no pens that I like in the price / point / plating / style  - with a photo of the tip that craft supplies http://www.woodturnerscatalog.com/catalog/pen_kits.html
sells.

What I would like for what is worth - that the pen style for RB - show that pen style in a RB tip.  And to be picky - I would also like to see a photo of the plating to match the the tip.  A group photo is fine - but each platting should be ID - I guess I can figure out the difference between a RB & FP - but it might be hard to figure out between RB & ball point.

I can handle my simple drill size selection - put the tube in the index for my drill bits - test drill - - and find a drill size that will work with the tube & wood.


----------



## herper62

could someone please post a pic of the new, old and Baron styles? I am a newbie of 6 months, so this would help in my post holiday purchasing. also I worked in a precision sheet metal shop that did helicper,medical high end audio etc. ya want an accurate hole indifferent materials, and thicknesses, us the mentioned equipment, fixtures etc and use a reamer. also clamp down whatever you use to hold your blank. 
Herper


----------



## LanceD

> _Originally posted by herper62_
> <br />could someone please post a pic of the new, old and Baron styles? I am a newbie of 6 months, so this would help in my post holiday purchasing. also I worked in a precision sheet metal shop that did helicper,medical high end audio etc. ya want an accurate hole indifferent materials, and thicknesses, us the mentioned equipment, fixtures etc and use a reamer. also clamp down whatever you use to hold your blank.
> Herper



It's the Jr Gent and Jr Statesman kits that has the issues about the nib design, not the Baron. Click on the link below and scroll down to the bottom of the page for a couple of pics of the old and new nibs.

http://www.penturners.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=20004


----------



## airrat

> What I would like for what is worth - that the pen style for RB - show that pen style in a RB tip. And to be picky - I would also like to see a photo of the plating to match the the tip. A group photo is fine - but each platting should be ID - I guess I can figure out the difference between a RB & FP - but it might be hard to figure out between RB & ball point.



Brad are you referring to CSUSA's web site here.  When you click on a RB pen and the picture shows a FP, actually under emperor its one picture for everything listed.   If so yeah that bothers me too.  They are making enough money to post actual pictures for each kit.  If I want to see what a Emperor RB looks like I should be able to click on the link from their site and not get a picture of a rollerball.   Makes me wonder if their web designer really cares about proper representation.


----------



## Randy_

As I mentioned earlier, I spoke to Eric about this problem and he tells me that they are in the process of correcting this situation.  Folks are going to have to be a little patient, however.  You don't take a bunch of new pictures and get them on the web site and in the catalog over night.[^]


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## ed4copies

> _Originally posted by Randy__
> <br />As I mentioned earlier, I spoke to Eric about this problem and he tells me that they are in the process of correcting this situation.  Folks are going to have to be a little patient, however.  You don't take a bunch of new pictures and get them on the web site and in the catalog over night.[^]





Why not???

If your bread & butter is catalog sales, CHANGE the catalog to represent your ACTUAL product!!!

In this case, "overnight" can be measured in MONTHS.  What unit of measurement is REASONABLE????


----------



## Rifleman1776

> _Originally posted by gerryr_
> <br />I never look at the instructions for recommended bit size.  I measure the tube with calipers and select a drill bit that's as close to being .005" larger as I have.  Why does everyone get so upset about recommended bit size when it's easy to measure the tube?



That is obviously the only safe and correct way to do things, pen wise. The downside is that most folks order what the company reccomends then suffers with the problems of ill fitting tubes. Not everyone, especially beginners, have large sets of drill bits. And if they do, those are probably fractional sized not metric. For a hobby or avocation, one should not have to go through such gymnastics to just get started.


----------



## Rifleman1776

> _Originally posted by gerryr_
> <br />I'm not saying they shouldn't be accurate, I just don't pay any attention to their recommendations.




At risk of repeating.....that is what it has come to. The manufacturers reccomendations may not be reliable.


----------



## Rifleman1776

> _Originally posted by Randy__
> <br />As I mentioned earlier, I spoke to Eric about this problem and he tells me that they are in the process of correcting this situation.  Folks are going to have to be a little patient, however.  You don't take a bunch of new pictures and get them on the web site and in the catalog over night.[^]



Correcting which situation? Will they be re-reccomending drill bit sizes?


----------



## airrat

I agree with Ed, Randy.   They knew they were changing the nibs, why didnt they prepare?  Eric?


----------



## Rifleman1776

I posed the issue of differences in hole sizes when drilled in different materials on another forum. Several responses came back but a few were right on target with our issue here. Two agreed that there is a variance. But, make that <b></b>BUT <b></b> both independantly stated the variance was very tiny. Each said the same thing. When measured to the fifth decimal point (e.g. .00001)[hundreth thousandths) the variance from extreme materials was half of that last figure. (e.g.  .000015), not enough to worry about for our purposes and frequently not enough for many machining operations. As to variances in drill bits, others stated that if there were variances they would create oversize holes rather than undersize. Same was true going from machine to machine with the same bit. Oversize was more of a problem than undersize.
An earlier post said something about varying sizes of drill bits from one manufacturer. While it might be possible, it is unlikely. The rods for bits are drawn, or forced, through a sizing hole while in a near-molten state. The rod would be consistently sized.


----------



## Ligget

I still cannot believe the changed the nib without telling anyone, all they had to do was post a picture of the suggested new nib on the IAP (in one of Erics posts) to measure response.[V]


----------



## gerryr

> _Originally posted by ligget_
> <br />I still cannot believe the changed the nib without telling anyone, all they had to do was post a picture of the suggested new nib on the IAP (in one of Erics posts) to measure response.[V]



Unfortunately, I can understand it.  After all, where else are we going to buy the kits that use that monstrosity?  At least we have the Baron as an alternative to the Jr. Gentleman, but we have no alternative for the Jr. Statesman or Jr. Emperor.  The whole business sends a message about just how important we are to them.


----------



## ed4copies

> _Originally posted by gerryr_
> <br />
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Originally posted by ligget_
> <br />I still cannot believe the changed the nib without telling anyone, all they had to do was post a picture of the suggested new nib on the IAP (in one of Erics posts) to measure response.[V]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unfortunately, I can understand it.  After all, where else are we going to buy the kits that use that monstrosity?  At least we have the Baron as an alternative to the Jr. Gentleman, but we have no alternative for the Jr. Statesman or Jr. Emperor.  The whole business sends a message about just how important we are to them.
Click to expand...



I believe you are getting the picture!!!


----------



## jodoidg

Disgusted, frustrated, how could they?  I hate the new nib!  A lot of market research went into this bonehead decision.  Why it cost a small fortune to poll people and determine that 85% donâ€™t like it!  They clearly donâ€™t care about our opinion.  I have never turned a Barron because I didnâ€™t like the nib, but I like it a lot more now.  CS can fix this problem by bringing back the old nib style, heck Coke did.  Until then I agree with the others, I will buy no more.  As a business this is the only message they will hear $$$.  Remember the customer is always right.  Wll it's time to go to AS and scope out some Barrons.

John

 I wonder if BB picked out this new style for CS??? Heâ€™s got to be loving this [:0]!


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## Mudder

> _Originally posted by Rifleman1776_
> <br />I posed the issue of differences in hole sizes when drilled in different materials on another forum. Several responses came back but a few were right on target with our issue here. Two agreed that there is a variance. But, make that <b></b>BUT <b></b> both independantly stated the variance was very tiny. Each said the same thing. When measured to the fifth decimal point (e.g. .00001)[hundreth thousandths) the variance from extreme materials was half of that last figure. (e.g.  .000015), not enough to worry about for our purposes and frequently not enough for many machining operations. As to variances in drill bits, others stated that if there were variances they would create oversize holes rather than undersize. Same was true going from machine to machine with the same bit. Oversize was more of a problem than undersize.
> An earlier post said something about varying sizes of drill bits from one manufacturer. While it might be possible, it is unlikely. The rods for bits are drawn, or forced, through a sizing hole while in a near-molten state. The rod would be consistently sized.




I see that Frank has done his research again.

A 1/64" bit is .0156
A .4mm bit is .0157
A #78 drill is .016
A #77 bit is .018
A .5mm bit is .0197 and 
A #76 bit is .020

Are you really going to try to tell me that they have a sizing die for each bit?

http://www.king-tool.com/drills.htm

A quote from their page:

"Drill blank production
M2 High Speed Steel wire received on spools is
processed at a critical atmospheric controlled
temperature for straightening and hardening.
The wire is then cut to stock lengths and drawn
for several hours. Draw temperature and time
differentials will produce specified hardness
and temper characteristics. After being drawn,
the stock lengths are cut down into rough drill
blanks. Centerless equipment is used to grind
the rough drill blanks down to a specified
diameter, and RMS surface finish. The normal
tolerance on the outside diameter is +0/-.0002
after this production phase."

BTW;

some of the less expensive bits that come from China and Taiwan are manufactured by a rolling process similar to thread rolling.


----------



## arioux

Hi,

There is a CSU open group buy going on.  I wonder how many of those disgiusting nibs pens will be ordered.  Maybe they will understand.  The one thing i'm afraid of (and this is just my how opinion, don't go overboard),is that CSU don't really design theit kits.  I'm more an more convince that they just buy kits from a Taiwan or China manufacturer and resells them.  They are now stuck with this change and can't do sweet nothing about it unless they convince the manugfacturer to change it.  Also due to the fact that many other models got the same nib, i see it as an effort to reduce produciton cost by normalizing the nibs.  That is the only explanation i can come with, due to their attitude of modifiyng their catalog, without even mentionning a serious effort about getting back the old nib..


----------



## Rifleman1776

Rather than string out a bunch of quotes, I'll just reply.
Mudder: My research is only beginning. I hope to post some meaningful findings later. What I posted is good information but it was second hand.
As to drawing, I once saw one of those shows on TV about how things are made and got my 'drawing' information from that. I do believe, however, that centerless grinding would be much more accurate.


----------



## Rifleman1776

Airoux, when Nils was still the contact here for CS, I believe he once said that the kits are designed by their own people. In fact he complimented them for all the thought that went into the efforts. He explained that "weirdo" drill bit sizes came about from consideration to feel in hand, balance, appearance, etc. When the pen design was completed, the drill bit size they ended up with was the result of those considerations. Nils, is a nice guy, but I think some one fed him a bunch of hooey on that issue. The companies like to sell extras and weirdo drill bit sizes are profitable extras.


----------



## DocStram

You talk with your wallet. I'll be purchasing Barons.  Maybe, one day, CSUSA will finally get it.


----------



## Mudder

> _Originally posted by Rifleman1776_
> <br />Rather than string out a bunch of quotes, I'll just reply.
> Mudder: My research is only beginning. I hope to post some meaningful findings later. What I posted is good information but it was second hand.
> As to drawing, I once saw one of those shows on TV about how things are made and got my 'drawing' information from that. I do believe, however, that centerless grinding would be much more accurate.



I would hope that a person with the literary background that you want us to believe you have would have at least checked his facts.

I hope you can post some meaningful findings too.[B)]


----------



## Rudy Vey

> _Originally posted by DocStram_
> <br />You talk with your wallet. I'll be purchasing Barons.  Maybe, one day, CSUSA will finally get it.



I don't think they really care, if they would, there should have been more response to all these messages posted here. When Nils was still around here, he did respond much faster and often. I just participated in the last group buy for CSUSA, and have Statesman jr on order. This was my first CSUSA order after the screwed up threads on the Gent Jr some two years ago. Guess, I return them if I don't like the nib, but I just want see it close up.


----------



## redbulldog

Frank
Who has determined that the drill sizes are weird? You or the designers?


----------



## Rifleman1776

> _Originally posted by Mudder_
> <br />
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Originally posted by Rifleman1776_
> <br />Rather than string out a bunch of quotes, I'll just reply.
> Mudder: My research is only beginning. I hope to post some meaningful findings later. What I posted is good information but it was second hand.
> As to drawing, I once saw one of those shows on TV about how things are made and got my 'drawing' information from that. I do believe, however, that centerless grinding would be much more accurate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I would hope that a person with the literary background that you want us to believe you have would have at least checked his facts.
> 
> I hope you can post some meaningful findings too.[B)]
Click to expand...


Mudder, I believe it was meaningful. It came from qualified folks and I do not doubt the information or it's accuracy. I was only stating, for the record, it was not originated with me and came from others.


----------



## Rifleman1776

> _Originally posted by redbulldog_
> <br />
> Frank
> Who has determined that the drill sizes are weird? You or the designers?



The manufacturers determine the drill sizes needed.
I determine if they are weird. I am the official weirdo drill size designator. Ask anyone. []


----------



## Mudder

> _Originally posted by Rifleman1776_
> <br />
> Mudder, I believe it was meaningful.



Then you are in the minority.


----------



## Rifleman1776

> _Originally posted by Mudder_
> <br />
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Originally posted by Rifleman1776_
> <br />
> Mudder, I believe it was meaningful.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then you are in the minority.
Click to expand...


I don't want into another rock throwing contest.
Maybe the kinder and gentler you could edit that post to call it your opinion that I am in the minority. Stating that as an absolute fact without supporting evidence is so harsh I'm in pain. []


----------



## Mudder

> _Originally posted by Rifleman1776_
> <br />
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Originally posted by Mudder_
> <br />
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Originally posted by Rifleman1776_
> <br />
> Mudder, I believe it was meaningful.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then you are in the minority.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I don't want into another rock throwing contest.
> Maybe the kinder and gentler you could edit that post to call it your opinion that I am in the minority. Stating that as an absolute fact without supporting evidence is so harsh I'm in pain. []
Click to expand...


It's information I received second hand so I believe it to be accurate []


----------



## wdcav1952

Now, now boys, play nice!! []


----------



## Ron Mc

I understand your post, but one thing doesn't make sense. Why would the company overseas go through the expense that is involved with changing the molds needed when they didn't have to?
I have personally shown the new nib and old nib to several people and everyone chooses the old nib. So...What is it going to take? The majority of end users and turners agree that the new nib just isn't cosmetically appealing.


----------



## Geo in Winnipeg

> _Originally posted by Ron Mc_
> <br />I understand your post, but one thing doesn't make sense. Why would the company overseas go through the expense that is involved with changing the molds needed when they didn't have to?
> I have personally shown the new nib and old nib to several people and everyone chooses the old nib. So...What is it going to take? The majority of end users and turners agree that the new nib just isn't cosmetically appealing.


A very large loss in sales ($$$$). Nothing short of that will get the message across or change their minds IHMO.


----------



## gerryr

George is right.  If everyone who dislikes the new nib style stops buying kits with it, they will get the message.  I will still buy the Jr. Statesman, but only the fountain pen.  I do plan to buy some full size Statesman and Gentleman rollerballs to see how they sell.  But, I will be buying a lot more Barons than in the past.


----------



## airrat

Actually if we really want to get their attention.  Stop buying ALL the kits until they say Uncle.  Obviously this thread has not gotten their attention.


----------



## woodpens

Who knows? Maybe Eric is fighting tooth and nail with management over the issue. [] My guess is they now know how we feel, but they have invested a lot in the change and don't want to accept the loss. Only time will tell if they change course based on our buying habits. I can assure you that I am done buying these rollerball kits until the bullet nose is gone. The Baron is a completely acceptable substitute.


----------



## herper62

since the tooling probably still exists, they should offer both nibs for sale and after a reasonable amount of time, either keep both or winner take all depending on sales totals only.personally I like the Baron nib followed by old style and dislike the new offering.
Herper


----------



## DocStram

I called CSUSA and told them how I felt. Who knows if they'll even remember the call?  But, maybe if we all make a quick phone call they'll get the message.  It doesn't have to be an ugly phone call. Why not just politely let them know how you feel?


----------



## Mikey

> _Originally posted by Ron Mc_
> <br /> The majority of end users and turners agree that the new nib just isn't cosmetically appealing.



Does anyone seriously think that the only people who buy from them are posting in this thread? To make a statemnt like the majority of users agree would be a far fetched statement unless you actually have access to some sort of survey that would include a cross section of all their customers, not just the few who have posted in this thread. Heck, how many different people have posted in this thread vs the number of members on IAP? How about the number of posters in this thread vs the number of CSUSA customers who purchased these kits in the last year?


----------



## Ron Mc

Mikey,
Your absolutely right. I should have stated:
"The majority of my end users and turners, that have posted in this specific thread, agree that the new nib just isn't cosmetically appealing." []


----------



## Rifleman1776

> _Originally posted by airrat_
> <br />Actually if we really want to get their attention.  Stop buying ALL the kits until they say Uncle.  Obviously this thread has not gotten their attention.



Because of this forum, and others, we are the most vocal. However, it is unlikely that in numbers we represent the bulk of their sales.


----------



## Rifleman1776

> _Originally posted by Ron Mc_
> <br />I understand your post, but one thing doesn't make sense. Why would the company overseas go through the expense that is involved with changing the molds needed when they didn't have to?
> I have personally shown the new nib and old nib to several people and everyone chooses the old nib. So...What is it going to take? The majority of end users and turners agree that the new nib just isn't cosmetically appealing.



It is my understanding that the designs come from the companies here and the overseas factories only make what they are told to do.


----------



## Rifleman1776

> _Originally posted by woodpens_
> <br />Who knows? Maybe Eric is fighting tooth and nail with management over the issue. [] My guess is they now know how we feel, but they have invested a lot in the change and don't want to accept the loss. Only time will tell if they change course based on our buying habits. I can assure you that I am done buying these rollerball kits until the bullet nose is gone. The Baron is a completely acceptable substitute.



As you say, Jim, "who knows?". Eric has been quiet lately.


----------



## wdcav1952

> _Originally posted by DocStram_
> <br />I called CSUSA and told them how I felt. Who knows if they'll even remember the call?  But, maybe if we all make a quick phone call they'll get the message.  It doesn't have to be an ugly phone call. Why not just politely let them know how you feel?



If we have to be polite, does that mean we can't tell them what the new rollerball nib really looks like?[]


----------



## ericatcraft

Hey everyone,

First, thanks to everyone for your comments- I want to assure you all that I have read every single one and I am not the only person in the company to do so.  We take what you say seriously, we really do want to offer the best pens possible and feedback is invaluable to us in doing so.  I have not replied to the group as a whole because I wanted to see where the comments would go, the group is a great community and I know that you will all let your opinions be heard.

Personally I still like the new nib much more than the old.  All of the talk here has been about asthetics, and I agree that the old nib looks marginally better than the new, but when it comes to functionality I think the new nib wins hands down.  After writing with the new one I can't stand using the old ones anymore- the main reason is the diameter of the nib, I think the old one tapered too much.  I have one of each here at my desk and every single person I ask to hold one in each hand picks the new nib everytime.  No one has ever picked the old nib as a better pen nib.  I don't even want to use the old one anymore.  Has anyone else reviewed the nib on it's functionality rather than the way it looks?  I understand that a large part of selling pens is the way the pen looks, but it seems to me that is mostly determined by the material and the turning job.  The other half of selling a pen is the heft, balance, etc. of the pen and I think that selling the new nib should be easier than the old if you can get one in the customer's hand.  I must admit ignorance here, I don't sell pens so I could be totally off my rocker.  

These are my personal thoughts and feelings feelings and I am just curious if you all hate the new nib (well, the 86% who have voted against it!) just because of looks or if you have even compared the two when writing?

That being said, we are in meetings constantly about our pens, among other things, and we'll use your comments and other feedback from customers not active in this forum, to help us decide what to do with this pen.  We will seriously be considering changing our nib, either back to the old one or perhaps a new design that looks like the old one but functions more like the new.  We appreciate all of your input and I wanted to let you all know that we are not ignoring you, or any of our customers.

Also, I am curious, many of you say that the baron's nib is the best roller ball nib (even better than our old nib), I have actually never turned a Baron and I wonder why you think so.  From the photos the nibs look identical to our old nibs.
Thanks for your help, I do appreciate it!


----------



## leevis

> _Originally posted by Mikey_
> Does anyone seriously think that the only people who buy from them are posting in this thread?


I'd be willing to bet that the majority of people who buy from them have never even <b>heard</b> of this website, much less posted here. Most customers probably won't even know there was a change until after purchase, and they surely won't know about the "controversy" surrounding them. Most of those folks will just accept the change (even if they don't like it) because they don't know any better. I know that I bought from them for a long time before I knew this place existed.


> _Originally posted by ericatcraft_
> I understand that a large part of selling pens is the way the pen looks, but it seems to me that is mostly determined by the material and the turning job. The other half of selling a pen is the heft, balance, etc. of the pen and I think that selling the new nib should be easier than the old if you can get one in the customer's hand.


Actually, I'd say it's more like 90% of selling a pen is the way it looks. Has anyone ever actually tried to use, long term, a pen that has decorative beads and coves turned on it? I have, and I can say they are darned uncomfortable to work with over the long term. However, they sell pens because they look good. It's all about the "Wow!" factor. It doesn't matter how much more functional it is, the customer is almost always going to go on looks. Besides, I shouldn't have to "talk" a customer into liking a pen. It should speak for itself.


----------



## Rifleman1776

Thanks for commenting, Eric. The nib design is a matter personal taste. I don't like the new one either. Even though I have switched to the Statesman and Jr. Gent II from the Baron, I admit, the Baron has a certain elegance missing from the S&G pens. My personal carry pen is a Baron and the nib feels nice in the hand. The faceted appearance is what sets it off.
Have you (your company) decided to not revisit the drill bit issue with the Gent II ? I believe the conclusion about varying materials is miles off base. If it were correct, you would reccomend an (apparently) oversized bit for every kit. You don't. As far as I know, all the others are properly sized and work just fine in a variety of woods and materials.


----------



## sandking

I am completely new to pen turning and don't know what the old style is like, but I turned my first Jr. Gentleman last week and like it.  with the exception of the rollerball getting stuck in the nib I like the design of it.  Reminds me of a round nose bullet.


----------



## TAld

Eric,
Why not sell BOTH styles and let you customers make the decision? [?].  I know stocking inventory is a concern; however, over time one of the two will win out or both will sell equally and the company will still be profitable. Isn't it always a win-win situation when ALL customers are satisfied? Case in point, when Coca Cola came out with their "New Coke" they did not stop offering "Coke Classic". What ever happened to "New Coke"? People want a choice!

Respectfully submitted,
Tom


----------



## woodpens

Eric, your response is much appreciated. I think you are absolutely correct about functionality of the nib regarding the taper. There is too much room on the old nib that often results in cross-threading when screwing the cap on. If the new nib solves that problem, that's great. It is just the tip of the nib that bothers many of us. A new design that combines the new functionality with a straight tapered tip would be ideal in my opinion.

Thanks again for listening to your customers.


----------



## Jim in Oakville

Hi Eric ,
Thanks for the feedback.  Okay I feel like the odd ball now,  I am one of the few who like the new nib and I have had no problem with my sales, go figure.  Actually I have had no repeat customer make any comment on the nib change other than, it looks unique and that most of the people who buy pens of this quality from me want something unique.

As nibs go, I do like the Baron nib in the tapered look, it felt better in my hand, but that was the only thing I liked about the Baron and they are not commonly available in Canada.

The last thing I want to see Eric is a Flip Flop by CSUSA on hardware, I am still finding VI Jr Gent hardware in my supply and it has gotten mixed with my V II stock.  I also know that on a few occasions quality and fit problems lot to lot in some kits have cost me a kit or two, not happy about that.

I want to commend CSUSA for making the pens kits of choice for me, I seriously would have not gotten into pen sales with out having the quality of hardware on my work that you sell.  My expectation is that CSUSA will listen to the voices out here that have the experience of knowing what sells a pen and also what makes a great design.  CSUSA has worked hard to develop a great reputation and I have confidence that they will follow through.

I also know that it takes time to make changes and it costs money....what I would like to continue to see is a few new interesting kits annually available in the top plating.  What I do not want to see is variation within a kit without notification or the opportunity to exchange what I have for hardware improvements as they happen.  You can look at my purchase records and see I do spend a fair amount with CSUSA, and that I burn down my hardware at a fair rate, but having changes between lots in a particular design without notification causes me more problems than what the nib looks like.

I will say and support you in that every single time I have called regarding a quality issue CSUSA has come through and supported my request 100% every time.  I have to say for me aside from the quality of the hardware in the kits I purchase , the level of over the phone customer service is added confidence in using your products.
Thanks Eric and CSUSA

Jim on Pen Street[]


----------



## arioux

Hi,

Leevis, please don't take my post personnal as probably many unconditionnal CSU defender will do but where is the market study, where is the consultation on their custommer.  Did you see any comment or warning or their site telling that the nib was changing?.  How many of those receive a kit that don't correspond to what they ordered.  Anywhere where their non IAP custummer where warn about anything?  <b>They did not care about us nor anyone else</b>. Even the photo on their web site did not show the change and i think that a little "photo is not representative of the kit" is very very easy to put. We are not all their pen business but I think this group is very well representative of the whole penturning community and 87% did not liked it. 100 % of my custommer did not liked it. The worst of all is that many of us just fell like we are bullsh..ted on this whole matter.  Good try Eric, but no i don't see any problem with the old nib and it did write dam well.  People don't like it period and by the sound of your post, i don't think you really want or <b>CAN</b> bring back the old nib (wich i'm more and more certain).  I have never see anyone here complaining about the old nib and as i say we are pretty representative so why (really why) the change?. When you have a busines, appologies and listening is something, care and respect for your cutommers is an other thing.  Last post for me on this subject as i'm tired of loosing my time on a sterile discussion, i prefer go in my shop and turn pens,unfortunately with your competitor kits.

Alfred


----------



## ericatcraft

Frank,

The drill bit issue is not in my hands at the moment.  I know that Rex (our resident professional and vice president of the company) is looking into it and the part of my original post regarding the bit is me paraphrasing him; I hope I did not misrepresent his thoughts when I made my post.  I know that we try and find the best drill bit for the job and one that we can easily maintain in stock or allow customers to find locally.  The 10.5mm bit is one I have heard him talk about but it is hard to find a reliable supply of such and odd size bit... basically I don't know what will happen with the issue but I know that we (the company) are thinking about it.  I can't guarantee that we'll change our recommendation but I can guarantee that we will recommend the bit that we truly believe is the best all around fit.  Your feedback, and that of others regarding the issue, has been helpful and Rex is aware of the sizes you've all quoted.  Hope that helps, sorry I don't have any hard answers for you at this time.


----------



## leevis

> _Originally posted by arioux_
> <br />Leevis, please don't take my post personnal as probably many unconditionnal CSU defender will do but where is the market study, where is the consultation on their custommer.


I think you misunderstood my post. It was not a "defend CSUSA" post (if you re-read the last part of my post, you'll see I actually disagree with their assertion that function and aesthetics weight equally). My point was that, even though the overwhelming majority of those posting here do not like the change (myself included), realistically, it will probably have little impact on CSUSA's volume of sales.


----------



## sandking

> _Originally posted by arioux_
> <br />Hi,
> 
> Leevis, please don't take my post personnal as probably many unconditionnal CSU defender will do but where is the market study, where is the consultation on their custommer.  Did you see any comment or warning or their site telling that the nib was changing?.  How many of those receive a kit that don't correspond to what they ordered.  Anywhere where their non IAP custummer where warn about anything?  <b>They did not care about us nor anyone else</b>. Even the photo on their web site did not show the change and i think that a little "photo is not representative of the kit" is very very easy to put. We are not all their pen business but I think this group is very well representative of the whole penturning community and 87% did not liked it. 100 % of my custommer did not liked it. The worst of all is that many of us just fell like we are bullsh..ted on this whole matter.  Good try Eric, but no i don't see any problem with the old nib and it did write dam well.  People don't like it period and by the sound of your post, i don't think you really want or <b>CAN</b> bring back the old nib (wich i'm more and more certain).  I have never see anyone here complaining about the old nib and as i say we are pretty representative so why (really why) the change?. When you have a busines, appologies and listening is something, care and respect for your cutommers is an other thing.  Last post for me on this subject as i'm tired of loosing my time on a sterile discussion, i prefer go in my shop and turn pens,unfortunately with your competitor kits.
> 
> Alfred



Not to be negative but I don't think you can throw out that 87% don't like it and that represents a large portion of the pen turning community.  First off even if you wanted to say that all the IAP members are a large representation of turners, that survey you quote only has 77 respondants so far (there are over 3,300 IAP members according to the member list) which means a mind blowing 2% of the IAP members have voted.  The 100% of your customers that you asked, how many is that (5, 10, 100, 1,000)?  When I say 100% of my customers that would be like a whopping 20 at the moment (just started turning last month).  Did you give them an option between the new an old, did you point out the difference, did you possibly influence their comments by showing how you felt about the new kits?

From a business perspective you don't retool a factory or change molds because 77 people aren't pleased.  If they fixed the issue with the cartridge sticking eventually this noise will blow over.  It would probably cost them more to get rid of the new stock they have purchased than the decreased sales from the members who aren't happy.  What would make them change are returns and lower sales, because if they can't move the stock than something will have to give.  Every day more and more people are getting into pen turning and they won't even know the difference between the old style and new.  I for example have never seen or used the old sytle, but I do like the fact that the new style is thicker on the bottom (based on the catalog picture), makes it easier for me to hold.

You can please some of the people some of the time but not all the people all the time.  I commend Craft Supply and Eric for even posting on this forum.  How many other organizations do that?  I know I can't even get a phone call back from PSI.  Just my $0.02.


----------



## Mikey

I thank Eric for posting once again. I will say this about the Baron pen. I like the nib because it is faceted and I can get a better grip on it because it is what I would consider a small pen. That being said, it is still every skinny to me and more worthy of being a woman's pen. I think it is far from being the perfect nib. I actually like the nib shape on the Gents pens, probably because it is a lot bigger.

What I don't understand about all the hype here is that from the pictures I have seen, the Lotus pen looks more like the &lt;cough&gt; symbol than does the new Jr Gent look. yet I don't see anyone adding that kit into this conversation at all.


----------



## GreggR

Sorry, gotta do the annoying engineer thing.... 

Actually SandKing, any sample in excess of 30 data points is considered statistically sound, regardless of the eventual population size. 77 respondants is good enough for me. The question should be "what is the Confidence Level for the mean of 87%?" So what I think we're missing is the margin of error in the 87% statement. Of course all this assumes we all agree on what the words "like" and "dislike" mean, and the responses all mean the same thing... [] But 30 results is all it takes statistically.

As for the rest of you coots.... You know what? I enjoy pen turning. No, I love it. It feels, smells, looks and sounds right to my heart and soul. It is quick reward, artistic yet technical. I can choose to whine about just darn near anything (and sometimes do!), but I exercise my choices when I buy something. If I don't like it, I stop buying it. Enough of us do that and the supplier will not be in business or will change the way they do business. As the customer we are in control. Period.


----------



## sandking

If I remember correctly from my stat classes the sample size could be considered statistically sound, but within that sample size of 30 you would really need a good spread of people/users.  A 2% response rate is pretty poor and I would tend to argue that this sample can be skewed.  It may very well be that most users of this kit really hate the new nibs, I just think that the margin of error could be large.  That being said, I've been wrong before and will be wrong again!!![]


----------



## arioux

Hi,

Since i started this, let me get in again.  For the statistic purpose, we should not take all IAP user, but assume that 100 % of the poll respondant are using this kit and that 87% of the kits user that respond to the poll did not like it.  As for my 100% custummer, i sell between 1000 and 1500 pens a year.  Just did a big show here in Montreal, sharing a space with a bowl turner.  I had 50 jr gent (old nib) 6 (new nib)in my display.  Trafic for the last  4 days before christmas was around 30,000 (215,000 for the 17 days of the show).  Sold 37 jr (old nib) sold 0 that's zero (new nib).  Everyone ( i estimate close to 1000 that stopped by our boot) that took both in their hand quickly put back the one with the new nib back on the table.  This is fact, not statistics.  Did not want to go into my personnal business but i just wanted to add some credibility to my post. I know it seem like i'm kind of bashing CSU and mabe i put a little too much on but i'm dam frustrated about them right now and this is the best place to ventilate.  Going back to the shop turning bottle stopper, at leat the nib still the same[}]

Alfred


----------



## sandking

Gotcha Alfred.  Congrats on your success, I applaud the sales. I hope to be as successful as you some day so I can quit the day job!!!  Seems like a rough day in the shop beats a good day at work lately.  I find myself spending lots of time on this website during working hours []  I can't get over the traffic at that show, was there a lot of pen competition? I would say that you're a good sample of the end users and what they may like.  It might be a little skewed b/c of how many of the old kits you had, but I would agree that the end user may not like this new style.  It also can do with the pen itself (weight, color, wood selection, etc) but you would be the person who would know b/c I'm sure they commented.  I hope Eric is paying attention to that as well and not just IAP members unsatisfied with the style.


----------



## herper62

ok, I just did as Eric suggested and tried the new nib just for feel and comfort. I have arthritis in my hands so I use a variety of pen shapes and sizes, depending on how I feel. This was done on an ok feeling day and yes the feel was better on the new nib. I do think that if they can put that feel nto a nib that looks like the old old they would have a true winner that could please more people.
Herper


----------



## Rifleman1776

> _Originally posted by ericatcraft_
> <br />Frank,
> 
> The drill bit issue is not in my hands at the moment.  I know that Rex (our resident professional and vice president of the company) is looking into it and the part of my original post regarding the bit is me paraphrasing him; I hope I did not misrepresent his thoughts when I made my post.  I know that we try and find the best drill bit for the job and one that we can easily maintain in stock or allow customers to find locally.  The 10.5mm bit is one I have heard him talk about but it is hard to find a reliable supply of such and odd size bit... basically I don't know what will happen with the issue but I know that we (the company) are thinking about it.  I can't guarantee that we'll change our recommendation but I can guarantee that we will recommend the bit that we truly believe is the best all around fit.  Your feedback, and that of others regarding the issue, has been helpful and Rex is aware of the sizes you've all quoted.  Hope that helps, sorry I don't have any hard answers for you at this time.



Eric, thanks again. The below is from a friend who is a master, really a master's-master professional woodworker. I haven't done my tests yet but I suspect my findings will correspond to what is said below.
  &lt;&lt;&lt;frank, the guys are correct about being able to get different sized holes from a given bit.....but for such things as pilot holes, clearance holes, dowel holes,ect. in wood it`s not really relevent.....doing a "test" on a woodshop grade drillpress(under 5k) and testing with a set of calipers you`re most likely not going to see a difference in hole diameter.......if you do wait an hour the check again, you`ll get a different reading......if like bruce you`re building rocket ships out of weird alloys then it`ll matter but for joe building cabinets or furniture no&gt;&gt;&gt;


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## Fangar

UH OH...  




> _Originally posted by ericatcraft_
> Thanks to those of you who brought this poll to my attention, I am still new at this and sometimes don't realize there are polls, etc. that require my attention. I am one of the few who actually like the new nib as much as the old nib (I don't really prefer one over the other)- I think that it is much easier to write with.
> I have passed your suggestions along to the people here who are in charge of what we sell and make the decisions regarding our pen kits and I will post a thread if I find out anything new. Thanks again.



SOURCE: http://www.penturners.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=20004&whichpage=2#207324




> _Originally posted by ericatcraft_
> <br />Hey everyone,
> 
> ...Personally I still like the new nib much more than the old.  All of the talk here has been about asthetics...



SOURCE:  http://www.penturners.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=20257&whichpage=7#211013

[]

I am from the school, if it ain't broke, take it apart and figure out how it has lasted so long, but in this case... I have a hard time believing that this new nib was produced for any reason other than a manufacturer change or machining process change.  I have the inkling Something is the supply area of the kit was modified to force the adjustment of the nib.  

I am a major fan of the quality of the CSUSA kits.  They are very well made and feel substantial.  However, I have had way too many problems with mismatched kits, threading issues, and inconsistancy between kits that I am hesitant to make them a sole staple in my line.  

Remember the evolution of the Jr's.  From the beginning... Baron sized bits and tubes, to larger... New bits and bushings required... numerous complaints about caps that wouldn't thread... new coupler created that fixed the issue... misdrilled nib holes requiring "roadside" maintenance to get the refill to fit.  Drill bit sizes in question... Now new nib that looks like a weenie.  I ain't never seen no weenie pens in Stylus or similiar.  And all this a higher price than that of the competitor...

I just want to make pens with the little free time that I have.  I don't want to mess with ordering an item that needs to be modified, altered, sent back, called about, or causes someone to be aroused [:0]

Phew... Glad that's over.

Fangar


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## Jim in Oakville

> &lt;&lt;&lt;frank, the guys are correct about being able to get different sized holes from a given bit.....but for such things as pilot holes, clearance holes, dowel holes,ect. in wood it`s not really relevent.....doing a "test" on a woodshop grade drillpress(under 5k) and testing with a set of calipers you`re most likely not going to see a difference in hole diameter.......if you do wait an hour the check again, you`ll get a different reading......if like bruce you`re building rocket ships out of weird alloys then it`ll matter but for joe building cabinets or furniture no&gt;&gt;&gt;



Good post Frank,

A few years ago I conducted a Design of Experiment (DOE) on hole drilling (aerospace application).  The results indicated that the most important factors were Feed, Speed, Drill Sharpness and Coolant.  

While this experiment was conducted on 7071 aluminum it's lessons were consistant with any material.  We measured our critical quality features of hole drilling, surface finish quality of the drilled holes and hole diameters.  

We found a strong interaction between Feed and Speed of the drilling process on hole diameter and surface finish.  We also found in 7071 coolant was critical.  

What I will take away from this DOE in wood is also just that, the interaction of feed and drill speed are important, so is the effect of heat on materials.  Some materials respond differently to heat, and as you mentioned given time for some materials to cool after drilling you will get different diameters.  

We also noted as a drill dulled that holes became larger and our heat sensors measured up to 30% greater hole temperatures.  


So, Feed and Speed have an impact on hole quality as does Heat and Drill Shapness also has an impact on hole quality and heat generation.  So what are the right Feeds and Speeds for Wood, what is the definition of Drill Sharpness?  I don't know, but a repeatable and controlled process has a better chance of reproducing a hole of a quality that meets what you want, if you know how to control the input drilling factors.

Overkill perhaps for pen making[], but useful to know... given pen making a hole that is sufficent to allow a tube to be bonded is fine. 


I have been using the CSUSA recommended drill for this size, I use epoxy for the bonding and I have made 25-30 of these pens (mostly stabilized wood and some acrylics)...I have not had a single failure...Just what I know, Just what I have experienced.[]


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## DocStram

I hate to sound "harsh" (as The Designer Guys would say on HGTV .... ask your wifey) but the reality is that we can't worry about whether or not CSUSA or any other retailer worries about what we think.  Nor can we fret about whether they value our opinion, or our input or our thoughts. The hard cold reality of a capitalist society is that retailers worry about their profit margins.  

Gotta go add my order to that Baron group buy.   []


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## PenWorks

Not one to kick a dead horse around or kick a guy while he is down, but.....
A. The clip you get on the Havana is not the one pictured, and it is not for the better.
B. The woodworkers pencil is clearly a 1/2 shorter than the original version, it is now the same size as
the Sketcher pencil, no news or mention of this change, you find out when you recieve your order.
C. The same thing happened when they changed from the black thread coupler to the all platinum coupler.
There needs to be a disclaimer on the website site or a better attempt to have accurate photos or keep turners informed of these changes.
It doesn't take much, just another little heading to click on the left hand side bar that may say production changes.
I have always enjiyed the quality of products and service from CSU, but what has been coming down the pike lately leaves me pondering alternative sources.


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