# Wondering why



## MuddyWater (Jan 29, 2009)

I know there have been posts in the past concerning pen kits and the quality of one versus the other.  People have posted about caps coming off of kits such as the Jr. Gent. and Baron etc.  What I like about this forum is the ideas people are willing to share in order to fix the problem, so I am glad when someone has the idea to put an o-ring on the pen, that is a good idea that I will file for future use.  

But here is my rub.  Why should I?  When I am paying good money for a pen kit that I hope to sale for anywhere from $50 and up, I don't feel like putting a little rubber o-ring on it.  I mean, you don't hear people complaining about the cap on their Mont Blanc coming off in their pocket do you?  

I just feel that the qaulity of my product that I offer to my customer should be better.  I also dislike having to take the refills that come with the rollerballs and throw them in the trash and upgrade or risk having someone complain about them.  Is it just me?  Does anyone else have any thoughts on the overall quality of the kits?


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## Pen Maker (Jan 29, 2009)

I'm picking up what your laying down there Muddy! I got two pens in the mail today, one wrote like a dream the other wrote like chalk! Today I ordered one of each kit. As soon as I get them I'll give you a buzz on which one is the top dawg!


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## Nickfff (Jan 29, 2009)

Muddywater,

I totally agree! I suggest that we highlight some of these known issues as a group and send note on behalf of the group (petition?)to the mfr and resellers asking if they can fix these issues (letter sent in a respectable manner). We should include the issue and reccomendations for improvement.

1) Baron top should be mfrd slightly larger so it fits with compression fitting correctly like most kits. If the top is glued with ca it can ruin the writing point(which i have done). Also, epoxy is an additional expense and requires additional time. 

2) Jr gent and Jr statesman should be built with some sort of o ring or nylon on the final portion where screwed in-this would avoid the pen exploding in a pocket.

What else needs to be corrected by the mfrs? i.e. glaring issues?


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## rjwolfe3 (Jan 29, 2009)

Statesman - part coming loose because of overtightening of cap.  Have to buy threadlock at extra expense and possibly o-ring.


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## chriselle (Jan 29, 2009)

OK, I'll bite. 

 Buy the best kit with the best plating available.  Couple it with the best quality blanks in the world and sell it for $250.  That will guarantee the pen is always in a proper case or pouch when not in use avoiding the "rolling around in the pocket" which is in fact the real problem.  Mont Blancs rarely share the same space as car keys, loose change, and little balls of lint.

As for the refills.....well..

I also build high end tube guitar amplifiers and they all ship with cheap yet robust vacuum tubes.  99% of the time the customer will swap in better or prefered tubes.  I equate cheap refills to cheap tubes....they're just to get you going.

Good rant though!


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## rlharding (Jan 29, 2009)

Did we ever definitively find the cause and solve issue of round scratches on the nib end of Jr Gents?


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## altaciii (Jan 29, 2009)

I'm with you Chris.  If your going to ask for all the money then get the best hardware to begin with.  To often penturners want to purchase a $3.00 kit turn some wood and want to sell it for $50.00 or more.  Then those same turners complain when the cust comes back with a plating that has rubbed off or other complaint.  Then they blame it on the manufacturer.  You get what you pay for and I, for one, would rather pay more up front and have clients that not only come back but come back with friends and more sales.  Now that was my $0.02.






chriselle said:


> OK, I'll bite.
> 
> Buy the best kit with the best plating available. Couple it with the best quality blanks in the world and sell it for $250. That will guarantee the pen is always in a proper case or pouch when not in use avoiding the "rolling around in the pocket" which is in fact the real problem. Mont Blancs rarely share the same space as car keys, loose change, and little balls of lint.
> 
> ...


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## rjwolfe3 (Jan 29, 2009)

So explain to me why a customer is returning a Black Ti/Rhodium Statesman because I just found out that I should have used threadlock and an o-ring to prevent the cap from being overtightened.  Is this not the best kit out there with the best plating?


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## jttheclockman (Jan 29, 2009)

chriselle said:


> OK, I'll bite.
> 
> Buy the best kit with the best plating available.  Couple it with the best quality blanks in the world and sell it for $250.  That will guarantee the pen is always in a proper case or pouch when not in use avoiding the "rolling around in the pocket" which is in fact the real problem.  Mont Blancs rarely share the same space as car keys, loose change, and little balls of lint.
> 
> ...




Now from what I have been reading over the past few months, the problems being talked about has no bearing on the plating or the blank. Pens have been made with blanks that are quite expensive and they come back to sellers because of cracks due to maybe the use or maybe to the maker or maybe to the wood characteristics itself. Platings that wear off are a product of the kit yes. But a kit where the cap unscrews, or you need to glue parts on even on high end kits should not be acceptable. People buy pens to use and not store in a case I would think. Yes you have collectors but then again they are the minority. I think if you make a pen and charge $50 or $60 it should be a quality pen. 

I think if there is enough complaints the manufactorer needs to make changes but if we do not tell them what do they care. I think the rant has merit.


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## jimofsanston (Jan 29, 2009)

*Ok*

Why don't we make a form room for each pen Manufacture and sub room for each pen type to put complaints and suggestions. Then either forward them to the manufacture or advise them of the link and have them put recomendations or solutions. Maybe we become procuct testers for Them?


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## MuddyWater (Jan 29, 2009)

chriselle said:


> OK, I'll bite.
> 
> Buy the best kit with the best plating available.  Couple it with the best quality blanks in the world and sell it for $250.  That will guarantee the pen is always in a proper case or pouch when not in use avoiding the "rolling around in the pocket" which is in fact the real problem.  Mont Blancs rarely share the same space as car keys, loose change, and little balls of lint.
> 
> ...



The truth is, that for someone who is going to spend $50 or $60 for a pen, I don't think they are going to let it roll around in the car with the keys and loose change.  Granted they may not take care of it as well as someone who spent $250 for a pen, but I still don't want someone who paid $50 to have a pen that is coming apart on them.  I know that some, for example sale barons for upwards of $100.  Not something that I want to have issues with if I were making the pen.

Now, I'll be the first to admit that I don't know everything about making pens.  Perhaps it is something I am doing wrong.  I had the opportunity to meet Lou last year when in Washington D.C. and talked about some of these issues.  Maybe he will chime in here, but the point I got from him was that many of the problems that people have are due to incorrect assembly.  Maybe so, but I can't rull out the fact that I am looking for something better.  

Maybe, it just comes down to I want other choices in my pens.  Perhaps this is the year  I buy a metal lathe and start working on my own designs.


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## chriselle (Jan 29, 2009)

Hey guys,  My post really had absolutely nothing to do with plating or blanks.  But everything to do with a "$50 or $60" dollar pen. I'll bet that if  Mont Blanc or any other high end pen maufacturer were to make their lines of pens in the $50 range they would notice a dramatic jump in claims of malfunctions simply because of how the pen is used or rather misused.    I wasn't talking about collectors who put their pens under glass either but rather a simple protective carrying case.  

I agree there is a design flaw in the kit.  In fact a large number of kits with threads are far too delicate for a heavy careless hand that risks overtightening or cross threading.  When I sell a pen of this design I warn the customer about these hazards and emphasize that care must be taken even though there is a lifetime warranty.  If a petition were to be circulated about this current flaw to be passed on to the manufacturer I would certainly sign it. 





jttheclockman said:


> Now from what I have been reading over the past few months, the problems being talked about has no bearing on the plating or the blank. Pens have been made with blanks that are quite expensive and they come back to sellers because of cracks due to maybe the use or maybe to the maker or maybe to the wood characteristics itself. Platings that wear off are a product of the kit yes. But a kit where the cap unscrews, or you need to glue parts on even on high end kits should not be acceptable. People buy pens to use and not store in a case I would think. Yes you have collectors but then again they are the minority. I think if you make a pen and charge $50 or $60 it should be a quality pen.
> 
> I think if there is enough complaints the manufactorer needs to make changes but if we do not tell them what do they care. I think the rant has merit.


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## chriselle (Jan 30, 2009)

MuddyWater,

Don't get me wrong.  Your rant and frustrations are justified.  My disagreement is a perceptual one.  For me, ESPECIALLY being in Japan $50 is the covercharge for getting into the local club to listen to a set of live music (when my band's not playing there of course:wink  It's 3/4 a tank of gas.  It's a cheap video deck that's going to die a week out of warranty. It's nothing. 
 Your accumulated overhead cost you way more than half of that $50 sale and that's not including your time.  At best your sales might be covering your hobby which may be the ultimate goal for many.  But still your time as a skilled craftsman translates to the equivalent of pulling a few hours shift on the line at your local fast food joint.  

BTW,, Double that Baron price, too.





MuddyWater said:


> The truth is, that for someone who is going to spend $50 or $60 for a pen, I don't think they are going to let it roll around in the car with the keys and loose change.  Granted they may not take care of it as well as someone who spent $250 for a pen, but I still don't want someone who paid $50 to have a pen that is coming apart on them.  I know that some, for example sale barons for upwards of $100.  Not something that I want to have issues with if I were making the pen.
> 
> Now, I'll be the first to admit that I don't know everything about making pens.  Perhaps it is something I am doing wrong.  I had the opportunity to meet Lou last year when in Washington D.C. and talked about some of these issues.  Maybe he will chime in here, but the point I got from him was that many of the problems that people have are due to incorrect assembly.  Maybe so, but I can't rull out the fact that I am looking for something better.
> 
> Maybe, it just comes down to I want other choices in my pens.  Perhaps this is the year  I buy a metal lathe and start working on my own designs.


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## its_virgil (Jan 30, 2009)

We can't do anything about these problems. But the manufacturer can...if they know about them. It has happened. Give the PSI, Berea, and CSUSA a call and explain your concerns. They will listen.
Do a good turn daily!
Don



Nickfff said:


> Muddywater,
> 
> I totally agree! I suggest that we highlight some of these known issues as a group and send note on behalf of the group (petition?)to the mfr and resellers asking if they can fix these issues (letter sent in a respectable manner). We should include the issue and reccomendations for improvement.
> 
> ...


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## MuddyWater (Jan 30, 2009)

Chriselle,

I agree with you on many points.  I'll admit that if I charge $50 or $60 for a baron that is on the low side of what many others charge.  However, I have only been making pens for a little over a year and am still working on perfecting my craft and I am still learning what the market will pay where I am.  I suppose that ultimately what it comes to is that I am looking for more control in the product I use and that is why I would like to see better quality in the products we use.  I try to make every pen to the best of my ability and I know that as  I gain more knowledge the quaility will get better.  Perhaps my frustration is driven in part by my desire to have more control in the types of pens I make.


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## mrcook4570 (Jan 30, 2009)

With regards to the issue of parts coming loose, ALL press fit parts WILL work loose with use.  The only way to prevent this is to glue the parts in place.  The major manufacturers do not have this problem because they do not use press fit parts.


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## GaryMadore (Jan 30, 2009)

jimofsanston said:


> Why don't we make a form room for each pen Manufacture and sub room for each pen type to put complaints and suggestions. Then either forward them to the manufacture or advise them of the link and have them put recomendations or solutions. Maybe we become procuct testers for Them?



Great idea.

A forum where grumbles (but not rants) can be posted for the manufacturers to view and, hopefully, use the information to improve their product lines.

I wouldn't expect miracles overnight, though, as it would presumably take time for the problem reports to get from reseller to wholesaler to distributor to other distributor to other distributor to manufacturer (which will invariably be an offshore company who would have to be convinced to make a change). I would also suspect that all players would have to agree, because requesting an improvement to one company's "Euro" means requesting the same change to several other companies' "Euros" - which are the same pens sold under different names. I would imagine that the quality of high-end kits (those that that sell for $50++) would improve through such a forum, though, for sure, because the shotgun-effect wouldn't be a factor.

Yikes: I'm babbling!

Cheers

Gary


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## jttheclockman (Jan 30, 2009)

I wonder if you buy this pen does it have any little rubber grommets or glue holding it's cap on???

http://www.anniemayhem.com/cgi-bin/wordpress/?p=907


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## Texatdurango (Jan 30, 2009)

MuddyWater said:


> ....I also dislike having to take the refills that come with the rollerballs and throw them in the trash and upgrade or risk having someone complain about them....


 
Don't take this personally but I think this is the craziest thing I ever heard of.  Rather than throwing perfectly good refills in the trash, send them to me, I'll be more than glad to use them... in the pens I sell!  I have yet to have a reciepient of one of my pens complain about a simple refill!  

I think this nonsense got started last year during a few similar rants with several members bashing one thing after another and when the dust settled most thought just about everything was too inferior for their pens and the oem refills were pure garbage.  I made the offer then and I'll make it again, send me the garbage refills from your kits, I'll even pay the postage!

I've had oem refills that didn't last a month and I've had oem refills that I'm still using over a year later.  I've had a Schneider "Gelion" refill stop writing after a week and I had a Parker "Gel" refill skip and smudge horribly right out of the package so there is no gaurantee with any refill, OEM or name brand!  

I don't think the consumer is dumb enough to fault you or your pen if the refill goes bad, I think if they are an adult they are probably used to the idea by now that ink pen refills do go bad and they just deal with it.  

I think Don had the right idea, rather than expect the manufacturers to visit our forum and listen to us, why not write them and voice your concerns?


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## MuddyWater (Jan 30, 2009)

Texatdurango said:


> I've had oem refills that didn't last a month and I've had oem refills that I'm still using over a year later.  I've had a Schneider "Gelion" refill stop writing after a week and I had a Parker "Gel" refill skip and smudge horribly right out of the package so there is no gaurantee with any refill, OEM or name brand!



You are probably right about the refills.  But it is frustrating when I sold a pen last week and was contacted by the customer this week and his pen has stopped working.  Granted, it is the only refill I have had problems with lately.  As I don't make a large number of pens at any one time I might not be the best person to speak to the quality of the refills.  This is just my observation.  Maybe others who have a lot more experience with the refills can chim in here.


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## Texatdurango (Jan 30, 2009)

MuddyWater said:


> You are probably right about the refills. But it is frustrating when I sold a pen last week and was contacted by the customer this week and his pen has stopped working. Granted, it is the only refill I have had problems with lately. As I don't make a large number of pens at any one time I might not be the best person to speak to the quality of the refills. This is just my observation. Maybe others who have a lot more experience with the refills can chim in here.


 
OK, here I am chiming in  Here's what I do.....

I have little "care and handling" sheets made up for all the pens I sell.

On the sheet I include with a fountain pen I state in part: _"I have included extra refill cartridges to allow you to sample a few colors of quality ink that I carry.  Refills as well as bottle ink is available on my website if you have trouble finding ink locally."_

When I sell a rollerball or ballpoint the sheet states in part:  _"There is no way of knowing how long a refill will last, that is why I include an extra refill for your convenience, to tide you over until you can purchase a replacement.  I carry several brands and colors on my website if you have trouble finding replacements locally"_
__ 
I also state which type of refill is required for each type of pen.  Perhaps it is this up front approach that keeps me from hearing complaints.  May not a perfect solution but it works for me.


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## rjwolfe3 (Jan 30, 2009)

George,
What do you do to keep the customer from overtightening the caps on the rollerballs and fountain pens?


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## djz9 (Jan 30, 2009)

I agree with almost everything above. The only exceptions would be no matter how much we pay for a kit, be it $2.00 or $50.00, what they say it is, it should be. I sell a lot of slim line pens, $29.00. If I pay $3.00 for a kit, $3.00 for a quality fill, and 3.00 for a blank, plus add the finish and a box, then add my time. I can't have it coming back to me because someone cheaped out on the plating or the laquer. I market my pens as something that can get passed from generation to generation, but if it can only be used for 3 years or so before the finish is gone, then I look like I made it cheaply. One quality pen can get you 10 sales from happy customers, 1 poor quality pen can cost you 50 sales. We need to stand firm, why not use the power of the group to better our product. Today it is hard enough to get people to spend money for a pen when everything costs so much, so we need to make sure that what we offer is the best, or just loose customers for quality issues that we did not do anything about. Together how much do you think we spend with our suppliers. They need our money, we need them to stand behind the products they offer, just as we do.


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## Texatdurango (Jan 30, 2009)

rjwolfe3 said:


> George,
> What do you do to keep the customer from overtightening the caps on the rollerballs and fountain pens?


 
I've sold and given away hundreds of pens now, mostly capped pens and had only one customer mention this problem a few weeks back so I looked into it, bought a few o-rings and mailed them to him so it's not a big deal for me.  What do you tell your customers?
 
Personally, I think this problem is blown out of proportion here on the forum.  Makes for a good discussion though!


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## NewLondon88 (Jan 30, 2009)

altaciii said:


> To often penturners want to purchase a $3.00 kit turn some wood and want to sell it for $50.00 or more.  Then those same turners complain when the cust comes back with a plating that has rubbed off or other complaint.  Then they blame it on the manufacturer.  You get what you pay for and I, for one, would rather pay more up front and have clients that not only come back but come back with friends and more sales.  Now that was my $0.02.



And I'd rather not start paying $40 for Slimline kits..
Seems to me that someone ought to be able to put a good quality plating
on a Slim .. Cross has been doing it for some time now


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## rjwolfe3 (Jan 30, 2009)

> I've sold and given away hundreds of pens now, mostly capped pens and had only one customer mention this problem a few weeks back so I looked into it, bought a few o-rings and mailed them to him so it's not a big deal for me. What do you tell your customers?


Well, so far my first Baron (that my wife stole) hasn't kept its lid on yet.  Granted she keeps it in her purse and not in a case.  She is always finding the cap somewhere in the bottom of her purse.  The first and only Statesman that I sold is coming back because the metal part below the nib holder has become loose. I am told that this is a problem with the customer repeatedly overtightening the cap. I am going to try the threadlock and an o-ring to see if that fixes it. I was asking because I haven's sold that many high end kits and would rather not have to do this to every one I send out. As far as a case, I wouldn't want to have to carry around a bulky case for my everyday pen and I can't expect my customers too just to prevent this problem with the cap coming off. There has to be a better solution.



> Seems to me that someone ought to be able to put a good quality plating
> on a Slim .. Cross has been doing it for some time now


I have some original Cross pens that are more then 20 years old that the plating looks terrible on and these were expensive pens.  My dad uses a lot of high end Cross pens and his are mostly worn.


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## MuddyWater (Jan 30, 2009)

Don't get me wrong.  For the most part I am happy with the quality of the kits.  However, there are some areas that I do think need to be looked at.  One of the problems we as a community have is that we are relying on companies that for the most part are in china or Tiwan to produce what we use.  When we try to compare the quality to companies like Cross or Mont Blanc, they have far greater control over the quality or their product.  Would it be better if a company in Europe or the United States were making our kits.  Perhaps, but then the price would more likely be more.  

People have posted about contacting the manufactures with specific issues.  I think it would be interesting to document how many kits we as a community buy each year from the manufactures and what is the dollar amount we are spending with them.  I suspect it would be an interesting study to debate about.


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## mrcook4570 (Jan 30, 2009)

MuddyWater said:


> When we try to compare the quality to companies like Cross or Mont Blanc, they have far greater control over the quality or their product.



Because they use NO kit parts.  They make all of their parts and their pens do not use press fit parts.  All components are an integral part of the pen.


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## NewLondon88 (Jan 30, 2009)

rjwolfe3 said:


> I have some original Cross pens that are more then 20 years old that the plating looks terrible on and these were expensive pens.  My dad uses a lot of high end Cross pens and his are mostly worn.



I've got some that are in the 60+ year range that still look good. Granted, 
they don't see everyday use either.

But I'd be happy with a 20 year plating ..


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## jttheclockman (Jan 30, 2009)

Texatdurango said:


> I've sold and given away hundreds of pens now, mostly capped pens and had only one customer mention this problem a few weeks back so I looked into it, bought a few o-rings and mailed them to him so it's not a big deal for me.  What do you tell your customers?
> 
> Personally, I think this problem is blown out of proportion here on the forum.  Makes for a good discussion though!



I do not think it is a blown out of proportion thing at all. You may have had good luck or maybe your customers do not want to bother you with something they think is just part of owning a screw type pen. But as more and more people are getting into pen turning each day you see more and more the same questions asked. One of them is has anyone had problems with such and such kit???  

Not everyone is privy to this site and sees how others correct problems they run into. Maybe the manufactorers should put some sort of disclaimer or maybe instructions or warnings that such things can happen and here is what to do. Or the dealers that deal with these kits should have this pasted on their web sites. We have become aware of the plating ratings and though this is unfortunate but when you do pay $25 for a kit I would think that all flaws are worked out. Comparing our kit pens to Mont Blanc and other big name companies is not fair because of what was mentioned in the way they are constructed and the strict guidelines they must have to follow. Who is controlling the people making our kits???? I think we do have a say and yes you can just stop buying them but is that the answer???  In numbers there is power. 

Do problems come through with the kits yes by all means. I just sent back 5 Sierras because of flaws. But if there is an inheirited flaw then the companies should be made aware of it. I think that is the jist of this post. Maybe I am off base here and am reading it wrong but that is my 2 cents.


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## bitshird (Jan 30, 2009)

One of the "worst" problems that has been resolved has been the plastic coupler on the Churchill and the El Grande, I believe it was Berea, but with enough complaints from the IAP members this plastic part got changed to metal, SO if enough people tell the importers, they will take notice and will correct the problem. If it's just refills, that's kind of a weak complaint, like George said they all go bad, Plating issues, yes some are nothing but trouble.
The Baron threading problems is a pain and could be fixed by the manufacturer or the importer, just include the O ring in the kit. Most of the major players in the field realize where they have problems, they will try and tell an individual they haven't heard of that particular complaint, but they have,  When one of the members started a thread concerning the Churchill problem and a hundred or so responded, next thing you know, the problem was fixed, I think all the Importers and Manufacturers of kit's watch this site to some degree, they will get the drift and if they are any good will do something to fix the problem. Also try and consider their profit margin it may not be quite as large as we think it is. give them a chance to fix the problem, they may have several or tens of thousands of a kit already in stock, so it may take a while to remedy the situation, just be realistic. As far as some heavy handed  customer stripping threads, I'm afraid that is a hard one for the  pen maker.  or the Manufacturer to control


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## Daniel (Jan 30, 2009)

I do agree that if the pens where sold at a higher price they would be treated better. I also expect one level of quality from a slimline or even an Euro style pen kit and an entirely different level of quality from the Statesman on up (Price Wise) for what they are selling those kits for I don't think defects should be tolerated at all. at least not on an ongoing basis. We can either address it, put up with it or stop buying the kits. that is pretty much the list of possible reactions that are within our power. a serious and professional comment to the suppliers would probably go a lot farther than just ranting and bad mouthing the product. I have seen problems get fixed in the past. The whole Jr. Gent II is an answer to a whole list of problems the first version had.
I believe threads have been changed on other kits as well. the comments do not fall on deaf ears.


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## Texatdurango (Jan 30, 2009)

jttheclockman said:


> I do not think it is a blown out of proportion thing at all. You may have had good luck or maybe your customers do not want to bother you with something they think is just part of owning a screw type pen. ...
> 
> Do problems come through with the kits yes by all means. I just sent back 5 Sierras because of flaws. ....


 
John we'll just have to agree to disagree I guess, nothing I can say will sway your opinion so I won't try, I was simply sharing my experiences with selling a few hundred pens not trying to say what's right or wrong. I still believe that it's an overblown problem though. 

For every one person on this thread or forum saying their is a problem with the caps coming loose, there are hundreds of others who sell thousands of these pens a year... without any problems, they just choose to stay out of these threads since they really accomplish very little other than everyone letting off a little steam! So please don't think you are hearing from the majority of folks on this issue.

You said you just returned five Sierras for having defects, out of how many?  I have in excess of 100 Sierra kits on hand, have 46 assembled ready for sale and have easily sold 50 or 60 so far, all while encountering only one problem with bad plating.   You said that I was probably just lucky, I guess I am!

Hang in there.


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## DCBluesman (Jan 30, 2009)

Going back to the initial post, there are a few cases where the components being sold are not very good.  There are a few designs which are relatively poor.  Yes, there are things to complain about.  
 
Being even mildly reasonable about it, we need to keep in mind that the explosive growth of the hobby is really only about five years old.  If you go back much further, you get into the time when there were 3-4 resellers with 3-4 styles of each and maybe a couple of different platings for each style.  The average set of components was less than $5.00, sometimes a lot less.  Spalted oak or curly maple was about as exotic as woods got.  Friction polish (shellac) was the gold standard for finishing a pen.  I would estimate that we now have thousands of component combinations available from numerous suppliers, we have wood from the most distant corners of the earth offered daily and there are more finishes than I have room to store in my basement.  In terms of quality, can you spell “growing pains”?  In the past year or two I have seen a number of suppliers cull their product line and try to eliminate the problem kits.  That’s a good start.  Suppliers have also sent their product line upscale (Emperor, Majestic, etc.) and downscale (fun line) in order to try to accommodate the majority of the hobbyists.  Are there glitches?  Yes.  And we can help address the problems.
 
Along with the explosion of upscale components, I have watched the explosion of problems.  Folks who have never used a fountain pen now want to make and sell high-end fountain pens, then wonder why there are so many defects in the components…defects that seem to be far less common with experience pen makers.  Along with the increase in the “bling” value of the components, there has not been an equal increase in the attention the hobbyist pays to learning the craft.    Do all Churchill’s or El Grande’s break at the coupler?  No.  Is CA bloom caused by accelerant?  No. Do all Baron’s and Sedona’s need o-rings?  No.  How is a pen maker to know?  By experimenting with and learning the craft.  No amount of sharing on a website will make up for actually making something!
 
For some reason, the average hobbyist is no longer content to make a few bucks with the extra products he produces, but he now wants to be paid “shop rates” and “artistry markups”.  And, of course, this hobby should be able to produce a comfortable income for the average hobbyist.  One last thing, average quality is the new fantastic.  Where is the reality in this line of thinking?  What percentage of bass fisherman make a living at it?  What percentage of bead stringers make a living at it?  What percentage of kite flyers make a living at it?  Across the board, the answer is a tiny percentage.
 
Buried in this thread are some good ideas.  Let’s not throw the baby out with the bath water.  Perhaps we should have a forum dedicated to documenting factual problems with components, tools, supplies and the like.  It would need to be moderated such that it does not become a rant-on forum.  Then, if a particular problem appears time and again, a hobbyist can compile the comments and forward to a supplier.  Or invite the supplier to joins us.  
 
Seems like there should be a more productive way of addressing this recurring issue rather than just compiling 50 comments every 3-4 months.


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## jttheclockman (Jan 30, 2009)

George

I guess we will have to agree to disagree because you say alot of people stay out of it. Look how many people you have as members and look at how many people actually particiapate in the discussions. You have this on all sites. So to say they do not have problems just because they do not speak up is not right. Maybe they just chose to fix it with any means they see fit. But does that make it right. I don't think so.

Hey believe me I am just looking at this from someone who is just getting into this. I have not sold many pens at all. I did have one returned because the clip started spinning. I replaced it and now I glue the clips on. Is that part of the kit???  I don't think so and it should not be. Is that my fault, I don't think so because I read many times of this problem. Now because it is a cheap slimline makes it OK???  I don't think so. To me it is a manufactorers flaw. Who would I complain to??????????? We just deal with it. I think there are now some slimlines that come with the cap and the clip as one unit. Why because they heard the complaints. 

The 5 Sierras that had flaws were out of 20 bought. The dealer is taking care of it with no problem. But things like that are more quality control issues than things like caps unscrewing, or clips spinning and inserts not writing nibs spinning and so forth. 

Well like you said it makes for a good conversation and just maybe someone in the right position is reading it. So no you or anyone else can sway me to say this is not an important topic.


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## jttheclockman (Jan 30, 2009)

I was typing while Lou was posting and have to say well done on the post Lou!!!!! I agree 100%


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## wdcav1952 (Jan 30, 2009)

mrcook4570 said:


> With regards to the issue of parts coming loose, ALL press fit parts WILL work loose with use.  The only way to prevent this is to glue the parts in place.  The major manufacturers do not have this problem because they do not use press fit parts.




THANK YOU, Stan.  You beat me to it.  If you want parts to stay tight, use red Loctite, epoxy, or CA.  Remember to allow several days for the CA to degass.


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## wdcav1952 (Jan 30, 2009)

jttheclockman said:


> George
> 
> I guess we will have to agree to disagree because you say alot of people stay out of it. Look how many people you have as members and look at how many people actually particiapate in the discussions. You have this on all sites. So to say they do not have problems just because they do not speak up is not right. Maybe they just chose to fix it with any means they see fit. But does that make it right. I don't think so.
> 
> ...




John, 

I cannot speak for the quality of parts in clocks which I assume from your user name that you have experience with.  However, when it comes to pen kits, you need to realize that we are dealing with a hobby craft.  If you have ever assembled models, you know that certain parts need to be touched up to have a good fit.  To expect a 2 buck slim line to fit together like a Swiss watch is simply unrealistic in my view.  Yes, we expect a higher level of quality in the higher end kits, and in my view we get it.  If someone wishes to have kits with as few parts to assemble as possible, perhaps this is not the hobby for them.

If a turner desires to improve on the hobby, and make a pen worth a nice price, he cannot simply turn an acrylic to shape and snap the kit together any more than a hobby painter can finish a paint by numbers kit and expect an artist price for his masterpiece.


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## thewishman (Jan 30, 2009)

rjwolfe3 said:


> The first and only Statesman that I sold is coming back because the metal part below the nib holder has become loose. I am told that this is a problem with the customer repeatedly overtightening the cap.



Rob, I over-tighten the caps myself to find where that "metal part below the nib holder" (whatever it is called) should be. When I get the cap tight enough that it actually stays on, I remove the cap and take a tiny dab of CA and glue the part in its new lower location. That way the cap has enough room to lock in place. 

The over-tightening pulls the nib section out of the lower barrel just a tad. Someone had a measurement for that position, but I cannot remember who it was.


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## kirkfranks (Jan 30, 2009)

*caution mini rant*

I don't normally get into these discussions but I want to offer MY opinion on one of the topics here. You are allowed you have your own opinion.

On the issue of needing to use glue on a press fit part.

From an engineering/manufacturing standpoint I think it is ALMOST unreasonable to expect our kit components to fit 100% of the time (if any) without use of glue or locktite...
First of all the tolerances that would be typical for machined parts (+/- 0.005") as opposed to "high precision machined parts (+/- 0.001 or less) would not lead me to expect that all parts would fit perfect. 

In the case of our pens the fact that we push a machined part into a drawn tube (sorry don't know the tolerances there) and we don't want it so loose that the part might get loose, but we also don't want it so tight that it might make our very thin acrylic or wood blank crack really just seems like we are asking too much.

I have had some parts too loose and the clip spins or the finial seems like it would pop off later. I just take those ones back apart and add 1 drop of epoxy and re-assemble.
I have also had my share of parts that seemed tight enough (learned from experience as suggested by someone above) that it might make my corian pen crack so I stop and sand the part a little to get a slip fit and go for the epoxy again.

How many of us would expect to be able to drill a blank (with even the highest quality bit) and be able to install the brass tube without glue? Yes wood moves so we have that excuse. How about Acrylic blanks? It would not be a reasonable expectation.

I for one don't think a drop of epoxy on the metal parts is that big of a deal. Sure is better than having to solder the parts together.


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## Daniel (Jan 30, 2009)

Lou's post as well as a couple of others got me to thinking back just a few years.
when I started turning pens it was pretty much considered a craft for those that wanted to turn or work with wood that really had no skill at either. It was also pretty common for "Real" woodworkers and turners to think that we had no desire to gain any real skills.
In the past few years it has been demonstrated, Not at all by accident, that penturning can and does demonstrate a well honed level of skill. many Woodworking magazines have contained articals specifically on pens in the last few years. and the craft has gained a completely different reputation.
It is growing at an astounding rate. changes are comeing faster than anyone could be expected to keep up with them. This does not mean that improvments cannot or shoudl not be made. corrections in defects identified and fixed. if that fix is lock tight, then so be it. if it is informing a manufacturer of a weak link in a design. this is a better answer in my opinion. either way we are the crafts people. we are the ones that take a material and construct a product. the quality in the end falls on us.


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## jttheclockman (Jan 30, 2009)

wdcav1952 said:


> John,
> 
> I cannot speak for the quality of parts in clocks which I assume from your user name that you have experience with.  However, when it comes to pen kits, you need to realize that we are dealing with a hobby craft.  If you have ever assembled models, you know that certain parts need to be touched up to have a good fit.  To expect a 2 buck slim line to fit together like a Swiss watch is simply unrealistic in my view.  Yes, we expect a higher level of quality in the higher end kits, and in my view we get it.  If someone wishes to have kits with as few parts to assemble as possible, perhaps this is not the hobby for them.
> 
> If a turner desires to improve on the hobby, and make a pen worth a nice price, he cannot simply turn an acrylic to shape and snap the kit together any more than a hobby painter can finish a paint by numbers kit and expect an artist price for his masterpiece.



William

I hear what you are saying. I will tell you of an instance with an American clock insert maker. Not long ago this company was making clock inserts which are used for hobby work such as fret work clocks. The motors they were making, after a short period of time became very loud and became an annoyance to people. Now I and alot of other people have used these motors and were getting complaints about the noise level they made. At first I would take them back and replace with a motor made in Taiwain. Well I called the company on this and as well as others for they got quite afew complaints. They did a redo on their motors and to this day I say they are as good as any Taiwain made motor. My point is if people did not complain nothing would have been done and maybe these would still be on the market today and maybe people would have just stopped buying them and who knows what would have happened to the business. 

There are other stories I can tell of instances where complaints have made a difference. Because there are hobby clock parts just like pen parts. So how do you know when a pen kit is flawed???  Do you go on the assumption all are flawed or wait for people to complain. To me people complaining is not good for business. 


Well I guess if I want to further myself in this hobby I better start paying more attention to people's complaints and mishaps here so I know what to look for when I run into them and how to go about fixing them. I sure hope more people continue to post their findings and their fixes in the future. Hope my $25 kits get here soon so I can start gluing them up.


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