# Anyone have a brief how to on using the tap and di



## Nickfff (May 7, 2008)

Hello,
Does anyone have a brief "how to" on using the new taps and dies to go kitless. I want to begin experimienting but limited on time so wanted to tap (pun intended) into the lessons learned by others. I.e. turn down barrel to el grande size using closed end mandrel, how to clean grooves etc?

Thanks,
Nick


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## Rojo22 (May 7, 2008)

Me too, me too!


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## Paul in OKC (May 7, 2008)

In metal work, there is an id size to drill for the tap, usually based on about 75% thread depth. When with wood, it may depend on how fine the thread is. For od threads, the material should be the same size as the tap. You might be able to measure the id of the die, and the od of the tap, divide the difference by 2, subtract 20% from that, double that answer and subtract it from the tap measurement and get a drill size. How's that for simplicity!


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## leehljp (May 7, 2008)

And Paul knows what he is talking about!  I don't think I have ever seen it written as succinct and clear at the same time. But the request was for a "brief how to" was asked.

Are you aware of the prices for these kinds of taps and dies in either single or multiple threads? These are not your normal hardware store variety.


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## JeffinWIS (May 7, 2008)

For ~75% thread, the hole size should be the thread O.D. minus the thread pitch.  I don't know either number though, so can't say much more.  For a very fine thread the hole could be several thou smaller.


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## Paul in OKC (May 7, 2008)

If you give me the sizes. I'll see what I can come up with.


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## Nickfff (May 7, 2008)

Hello,
Sorry, let me clarify a bit more. I have recently received the tap and die from the group buy. I was wondering if anyone had some tips/quick how to on getting started using these tap and dies.

Thanks,
Nick


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## LEAP (May 7, 2008)

Nick,
I just received the set of dies also and here is how I intend to proceed. I plan on taking some cutoffs from various materials and glueing them to a short piece of wood and turning to the diameter for the outside thread. ( Thanks Paul for the formula, It sure beats trial and error)Then Do the same thing for the internal threads so I find what will work and what won't.  When I find out which of the materials work well I'll turn closed end pens using skiprats pin vise ( look at the tutorial on the IAP home page, Thanks again Steve for sharing that) Then I will shamelessly steal Oh borrow from Texatdurango's work for the first couple before branching out on my own designs.  The tap and die match the El Grande components so you might want to get a few of those kits to take parts from. It's sure to be a lot of fun during the trial and error phase and there will be some cussing going on from time to time but thats the best part of pen turning in my book. Hope this helps a little feel free to drop me a PM and we'll compare notes.


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## Paul in OKC (May 8, 2008)

Can some body give me the thread diameter?


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## gketell (May 8, 2008)

Cap Tap & Die: M12x0.8
Nib Tap: M10x1

Ooops  rereading your note above the probably isn't what you want.  Let's try this:

Tap thread OD: 12.0mm
Die thread ID: 11.31 - 11.34mm depending on where I measure.  (first for me, it is an Open Die (one side split) with a set screw holding it together).


THANKS Paul!!!

GK


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## Paul in OKC (May 8, 2008)

My chart shows a is 9mm drill for the 10mm tap. 9mm is .3543, a letter 'T' drill is .358, letter 'S' is .348, 11/32 is .3438. Might give any of these a try in some scrap wood.   For the 12mm tap, I would start with a 7/16 drill. I calculate a .4409 hole, so the 7/16 is just .003 under that. Depending on what wood you intend to drill, the hole size may need to vary a bit. I have found that in maple, it is best to go a little small, then drizzle CA into the hole and let it soak in.  For oilier woods like cocobolo, bocote, etc. running the right size bit works.  HTH


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## BRobbins629 (May 8, 2008)

Pretty good Paul - 7/16 is the right drill size for the cap triple thread tap.  I also drill or bore to about 0.5" for 1/8" deep or less so the threads don't start at the very bottom of the cap and it can go over the threads of the nib section.   I turn the nib holding section to about 0.475 for the triple start die.  

If using the El Grande nibs, I drill a 21/64 hole for the 1 x 10mmm tap.   You also need to expand the top of this hole by drilling or boring as these nibs have a small shoulder.  I do it by fit.  Some of the nibs are a little tight fit into this 1 x 10 thread so I got a 1 x 10mm die to chase the nib threads.  1 pass with the die and they screw in smoothly.

BTW, I would test in acrylic, PR, or ebonite - not wood.

The taps are best held in a tailstock jacobs chuck which keeps them straight.  I tried by hand and got crooked pens.  Lubricate the tap with WD40 and turn the lathe by hand to cut the threads. Tailstock should be snug but allowed to move as the threads advance.  Similar advice for the die, except get a die holder that fits in the chuck.


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## Paul in OKC (May 9, 2008)

> BTW, I would test in acrylic, PR, or ebonite - not wood.
> 
> The taps are best held in a tailstock jacobs chuck which keeps them straight.  I tried by hand and got crooked pens.  Lubricate the tap with WD40 and turn the lathe by hand to cut the threads. Tailstock should be snug but allowed to move as the threads advance.  Similar advice for the die, except get a die holder that fits in the chuck.



Good points!


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## Rojo22 (May 9, 2008)

Ok, so I dont know anything about die and tap stuff, but I am learning a bunch in here thanks to the people who know way more than I can hope to.  This die holder that fits in a chuck, is that a pretty available type item?  Thanks again for all of you who are educating us, we are very appreciative in the frustration you are saving us, and proud that you guys are willing to share the skills with us.


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## Texatdurango (May 9, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Rojo22_
> 
> Ok, so I dont know anything about die and tap stuff, but I am learning a bunch in here thanks to the people who know way more than I can hope to.  This die holder that fits in a chuck, is that a pretty available type item?  Thanks again for all of you who are educating us, we are very appreciative in the frustration you are saving us, and proud that you guys are willing to share the skills with us.



Yes the die holders are readily available in various stages of quality, one source for a holder with a MT-2 shank is shown below.  A Google search for die holder would reveal many others.

Please don't take this the wrong way as it's not meant to be critical or directed at you, just a different perspective.  Is educating really the right term here?  When I went to school my teachers discussed the subject in class then assigned me home work which was the bulk of my learning experience, not a teacher just passing out answers to everything.

I have always enjoyed digging into something new, asking only when I was stumped but felt that the frustration I encountered was part of the learning and discovery process but the frustration was usually overwhelmed by the feeling of accomplishment when I overcame obstacles I worked through.  

Personally I think it would be so boring if one were to simply post a shopping list of materials needed, links to sources of all tools and supplies, a step by step tutorial with photos showing each and every step.  Very similar to "take all parts from bag, glue part A to part B then place assembly A on mandrel B and turn to meet part C, remove then assemble, lather, rinse then repeat..."

I'd sure hate to see the advanced pen making forum turn into nothing more than a list of shopping links and tutorials.

http://www.littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=2314&category=


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## Rojo22 (May 9, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Texatdurango_
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I would like to preface my remarks with the same as you did and that is just my perspective, and nothing against what you said....

I feel like I am a member of the community here, and if there is something that I can offer any level of penturner here, I would do so with absolutely no sense of accommodation.  I give of my experience and limited expertise with no strings or attitude attached.  If it saves someone a broken tool, a busted blank, or 2 hours of frustration, I would be again happy to help them avoid those things.  It is up to that person to execute the functionality of the exercise.

I asked my questions, because I am not a gear head, and have NEVER dealt with taps, dies, or any of the terms applied to them.  I wouldnt know which end to hold, so how is that for refreshing.  If it is too much to ask a question about how common a tool is, I am sorry for wasting your time.  I can google and am pretty proficient with the internet, so my very next step was to see where and who had one.  Thanks for the link, I am very grateful that you went to the trouble for me, but I dont appreciate the condescending mode with which it was presented.

I would sure hate to see the advanced pen making thread turned into an area where the sharing of knowledge and educating us lessor pen turners is looked at as a chore or as you put it "place tab a into slot b".  I come here humbly looking for information and the knowledge to get a pen made, sorry if you feel like you are holding our hands.

For the others offering great technical advice and stuff we can really use, we appreciate it.


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## Blind_Squirrel (May 9, 2008)

> Please don't take this the wrong way as it's not meant to be critical or directed at you, just a different perspective. Is educating really the right term here? When I went to school my teachers discussed the subject in class then assigned me home work which was the bulk of my learning experience, not a teacher just passing out answers to everything.



To me, educating is the right term. I use these forums as "discussing the subject".  The homework comes in when I go into my shop and (try to) put into practice what I have gotten from the discussions here. 

I hope your teacher did more than say "go get a tap and dies set and practice.  There will be a practical test on Friday."  The teacher probably produced a tap and dies set, told you what it is, explained the uses, and gave a demonstration. To me a tutorial (written, pictorial, or video) is that explanation and demonstration.

This being an _advanced_ forum, I do see where frustration can set in when someone that may not have the technical ability (yet) comes to the forum and asks basic questions that they should already know the answer to before venturing into this area of pen making.


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## Paul in OKC (May 9, 2008)

There may also be a die holder to use in a drill chuck. Something with a 'stem' to put in the chuck and a pocket for the die.


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## Texatdurango (May 9, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Rojo22_
> 
> ...I would like to preface my remarks with the same as you did and that is just my perspective, and nothing against what you said....Thanks for the link, I am very grateful that you went to the trouble for me, but I dont appreciate the condescending mode with which it was presented.
> 
> I would sure hate to see the advanced pen making thread turned into an area where the sharing of knowledge and educating us lessor pen turners is looked at as a chore or as you put it "place tab a into slot b".  I come here humbly looking for information and the knowledge to get a pen made, sorry if you feel like you are holding our hands...


Sorry you took my comments so personal but I really don't understand why you feel I was so condescending.  I added the part about a Google search revealing other sites because 70% of the time one provides a link to a tool, someone else will come back with... "here's a cheaper one", and there are cheaper ones out there, I found several, even ordered one and what a piece of junk it turned out to be.  I don't feel like I'm holding anyones hand and I think you missed the entire point of my post if you thought that is what it was all about.  Maybe it's just me, maybe I just like figuring things out myself.

No harm, no foul, just don't get too upset.


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## desertyellow (May 27, 2008)

I had to read through it a few times before it started to sink in but I think I got it now.  Thank you for your input.  You wrote it clear and succinct.  This is new to me so I had to review it several times.  Again thanks for the help.

Tony,
Las Vegas



> _Originally posted by Paul in OKC_
> 
> In metal work, there is an id size to drill for the tap, usually based on about 75% thread depth. When with wood, it may depend on how fine the thread is. For od threads, the material should be the same size as the tap. You might be able to measure the id of the die, and the od of the tap, divide the difference by 2, subtract 20% from that, double that answer and subtract it from the tap measurement and get a drill size. How's that for simplicity!


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