# I'm done with wood pens!...



## chriselle (Jan 6, 2009)

A month or so ago I posted in the finishing forum about the CA finish cracking on wood pens I made last summer.  Two more have developed fine cracks; one padauk and a mallee burl.  These also were made in the summer.  We go from awful, dripping humidity in the summer to 28% relative humidity in the winter months.    I'm tired of looking in the showcase wondering which pens are going to be the latest victims.  Argh!!  I haven't had any customer returns but I wouldn't be surprised if a few showed up.

Acrylics and more recently tru-stone out sell wood 4 to 1 anyway.  

Just a little peeved..


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## DCBluesman (Jan 7, 2009)

Precisely why I use lacquer!


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## chriselle (Jan 7, 2009)

DCBluesman said:


> Precisely why I use lacquer!



Yes, we've hinted at this before in other threads regarding Urushi.  I'm experimenting right now with Cashew and the new kid on the block Washin thinner based lacquer.  Washin is great to work with as it sets up about twice as fast as Cashew and 4 or 5 times faster than Hon.  And...I don't have to have projects curing in my onsen with my wife freaking out about our daughter (possibly) having a reaction..lol. 

 Lou, what are you using for regular lacquer?


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## MobilMan (Jan 7, 2009)

Is just the CA cracking or the wood, causing the CA to crack.  CA is some brittle stuff.


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## Skye (Jan 7, 2009)

In the couple years I've been using a CA finish, I've never had a single pen crack. Are you using a sealing layer of thin? I don't know that it would matter but thought it may help a little with the swelling of wood. Don't take this the wrong way, but if you can't solve your CA problems, I wouldn't jump into learning Urushi.

I've also dropped plenty of pens over the year and I wouldn't label a good CA finish as brittle either.

I'm not sure what I'm doing differently or how I'm treating my pens differently, but I'm having neither of these problems.


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## Daniel (Jan 7, 2009)

A couple of personal conclusions I have made over the years,
1. use only stabilized woods. Stabilization removes the woods tendency to contract and expand with changes in humidity.
2. that although very nice woods can be gotten, they are still in my mind fancy novelty. truly top quality pens are not made with wood. There are always exceptions.
3. using acrylics or other cast materials is far more consistent in what look you will end up with than wood. which I prefer.

I have had pens crack later being stored for months. I have never considered this to be the CA finish though. it is the wood. Ebony being one of the worst, even Buffalo horn has cracked months after I have turned a pen from it. Tagua nut is another one I have had problems with. I don't use any of them unless a customer asks for them specifically, in which case I give them warning about the problems with it. for some reason they never seem to mind that horn might crack.


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## workinforwood (Jan 7, 2009)

I have not had any CA cracking either.  I have however had CA pens with cloud spots that look like the CA litterally is bubbling like a countertop, and I believe it to be storage related, like doing a show outside at 100 degree temps maybe.  I'd say I have a future issue show up on a ca pen maybe 1 in 40 pens.  I want to switch over into a catalysed acrylic, but have to wait for the wife to get back to work.  I gave her all my money for the new spray equipment and supplies to pay the mortgage.


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## mrcook4570 (Jan 7, 2009)

Was the padauk pen cross-cut?


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## jkeithrussell (Jan 7, 2009)

workinforwood said:


> I have however had CA pens with cloud spots that look like the CA litterally is bubbling like a countertop


 
I know this has been kicked around a lot, but my personal belief is that CA clouding is caused by using accelerant when applying the CA finish. Every time that I've tried to use accelerant -- even just a little bit -- I've had clouding. On the flip side, I've never had clouding when I did not use accelerant.


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## DCBluesman (Jan 7, 2009)

chriselle said:


> Lou, what are you using for regular lacquer?


 
I probably have a couple of dozen different lacquers in the basement.  On most woods, deft will do a fine job.  I also use Watco, Enduro, Unaxol, Piano Lac, Oxform Ultima, as well as roiro and uwasuri.


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## mrcook4570 (Jan 7, 2009)

jkeithrussell said:


> I know this has been kicked around a lot, but my personal belief is that CA clouding is caused by using accelerant when applying the CA finish. Every time that I've tried to use accelerant -- even just a little bit -- I've had clouding. On the flip side, I've never had clouding when I did not use accelerant.



Try holding the accelerator farther away from the blanks when spraying it.  If too much is in contact with the CA, then it will foam, bubble, cloud, etc.


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## chriselle (Jan 7, 2009)

Skye said:


> In the couple years I've been using a CA finish, I've never had a single pen crack. Are you using a sealing layer of thin? I don't know that it would matter but thought it may help a little with the swelling of wood. Don't take this the wrong way, but if you can't solve your CA problems, I wouldn't jump into learning Urushi.
> 
> I've also dropped plenty of pens over the year and I wouldn't label a good CA finish as brittle either.
> 
> I'm not sure what I'm doing differently or how I'm treating my pens differently, but I'm having neither of these problems.



Thanks for all the input fellas.

Let me stress that this problem is only appearing on pens that I turned in the summer when the humidity is high...and I mean unbearable..lol.  I noticed the problem from previous summers as well.  It is ONLY the CA that is cracking and the cracks are concentric around the blank. 

 If I may be so bold I will state that my CA finish is "perfect".  The CA isn't the problem.  The wood contracting underneath it is.  

The paduak blank was cross cut and not stabilized so it was doomed from the start. The Mallee burl blank was stabilized BUT not very well and the cracks in it are exactly where the resin didn't penetrate thoroughly.  

The few pens that I still have on display which were made in the dry season are fine.



Skye,  For your or anyone else's interest in Urushi.

I've been "playing around" with Urushi for about 10 years.  An artisan in Hokkaido gave me some valuable lessons way back when, but I only recently started getting back into it.  The drummer in my band is a cashew specialist who makes Urushi fishing rods.  We're planning a "mini" one week urushi apprenticeship trip to Ishikawa in the spring....wax on,,wax off..:biggrin:
In the mean time I am slowly building a setup for small batch production of urushi finished pen barrels using a number of slow turning rod finishing motors inside a furo box that conveniently will sit on the window ledge in my onsen.  I should be able to do 20 or so barrels per batch.

Also, until I get setup, I'm tentatively working on an arrangement with an artisan in Kanagawa to do the Urushi on my pens for me.  I send him 40 or 50 turned and prepped blanks and get them back 6 months to a year later.  We are still discussing urushi formulations, designs, types of artwork and costs of course.  

No one is going to get rich but it's good fun.


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## mrcook4570 (Jan 8, 2009)

Both cross cut woods and burls feature a relatively large amount of end grain on the surface, which translates into greater wood movement.  Even with a good film finish, the wood will still move.

Lacquer is not immune to this problem.  I have seen these same cracks develop in lacquer finished pens.  It is a problem with wood selection.


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## Skye (Jan 8, 2009)

chriselle said:


> I've been "playing around" with Urushi for about 10 years.



Cool, I'd like to see the rods!

Someone here was recently asking about Urushi finishing and they sounded like they had never dabbled with it before, so I must have confused you with him.

Yeah, I'm no stranger to horrible humidity here. Sometimes in the summer you feel like you have to work to breathe here. Sucks.


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## GouletPens (Jan 8, 2009)

You're right about most high-end pens not being made of wood. The fact is, like anything made of wood, it's a pain to deal with!!! You can put whatever finish you want on your wood, but it's never going to stop moving completely. Any finish will allow at least some moisture to penetrate and it's simply a fact of life. If I were you I would switch to only using professionally stabilized woods and otherwise use acrylics and stone.

I'm the opposite of you, the majority of my customers want wood pens. The reason is because you don't see them often and they are unique, mainly b/c they are such a pain to work with!!! That's a lot of the appeal, and the frustration of working with natural materials is exactly why none of the "Brand names" want to deal with wood. But I think the appeal is there and the dollars are there if you can get it right.


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## Russianwolf (Jan 8, 2009)

One solution is to turn the wood substantially smaller than the bushings. then cast the in PR (etc.) and return to final dimensions. 

That seal the wood about as completely as possible. Especially if you do something on the ends so that the wood is completely enclosed.


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## GouletPens (Jan 8, 2009)

Russianwolf said:


> One solution is to turn the wood substantially smaller than the bushings. then cast the in PR (etc.) and return to final dimensions.
> 
> That seal the wood about as completely as possible. Especially if you do something on the ends so that the wood is completely enclosed.


 If you get it professionally stabilized, that's basically what is being done. If you see some of the pressure chambers and whatnot they use, you'll be as convinced as me that it's better left to the pros on this one! :hypnotized:


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## GouletPens (Jan 8, 2009)

Chris, I don't know if this will really apply to you b/c you said the wood itself isn't cracking, just the finish, but what type of glue are you using? A number of people suggest drilling the holes larger and using epoxy or a "flexible" adhesive to allow the barrel and wood to expand and contract at different rates. like I said, might not apply to you here b/c you're dealing with the wood moving and the finish not. Also, I've seen your pictures and its clear you know what the heck you're doing with your pens so please don't take my comments as "advice for the ignorant". I still suspect it's a weather/stabilized wood issue.


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## bitshird (Jan 8, 2009)

I was going to try Unaxol, on some IBO but Moby Dick is no longer the U.S. distributor for it and got no response from the manufacturer as to a US  seller, this was last week. So Delft Lacquer it is, Our summer humidity is pretty bade being between two of the largest rivers in the country, and I have a couple of pens from a year ago that dont show any cracks, I guess I'm just lucky.


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## Dario (Jan 8, 2009)

Daniel said:


> truly top quality pens are not made with wood. There are always exceptions.





GouletPens said:


> You're right about most high-end pens not being made of wood.
> 
> I'm the opposite of you, the majority of my customers want wood pens. The reason is because you don't see them often and they are unique, mainly b/c they are such a pain to work with!!! That's a lot of the appeal, and *the frustration of working with natural materials is exactly why none of the "Brand names" want to deal with wood.* But I think the appeal is there and the dollars are there if you can get it right.



I agree 100% with Brian on this one.


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## GouletPens (Jan 8, 2009)

Dario said:


> I agree 100% with Brian on this one.


 Thanks Dario!! Here's a case and point: I have a Paradise Pen store locally here in Richmond, Va. and they have all the top brands. I don't remember who it was that had a "parquet" type design on here, but I know I've seen it. Check out this pen from Graf von Faber-Castell at Paradise Pen's website http://www.paradisepen.com/paradise...er-Castell+Pen+of+the+Year+2008&dept_id=21095

$3,000!!!!!!!!!!!!! Granted, Faber-Castell is a name know much more than any of ours, but DANG!!!!  That's what I'm saying though, you do the wood right and charge up the wazoo for it if you're gonna be a real pro. Keep your eyes out everyone, one day you'll see my ugly mug up in one of these fancy stores with a $3,000 pen:wink::wink::wink:


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## Russianwolf (Jan 8, 2009)

GouletPens said:


> If you get it professionally stabilized, that's basically what is being done. If you see some of the pressure chambers and whatnot they use, you'll be as convinced as me that it's better left to the pros on this one! :hypnotized:



What I'm describing isn't exactly stabilization, and won't need special equipment to do it. I know I've seen the term double cast on here a couple times, and that's what I'm describing. The goal I'm describing isn't impregnating the wood with the plastic, but just encasing the wood in the plastic. Like the snake skins we love. With the visual effect of the plastic, the wood will still look like it is right below the surface. 

Some have used this instead of CA to finish pens. Although it obviously takes more time, they don't have to worry about the fumes, burned fingers, etc.

Here's a double cast by Stevers
http://www.penturners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=5725&highlight=double+cast


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## rick_lindsey (Jan 8, 2009)

I wonder what effects you'd get from shallow beads and coves in the wood, under a much smoother PR surface?

-Rick


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## wizical (Jan 8, 2009)

bitshird said:


> I was going to try Unaxol, on some IBO but Moby Dick is no longer the U.S. distributor for it and got no response from the manufacturer as to a US  seller, this was last week. So Delft Lacquer it is, Our summer humidity is pretty bade being between two of the largest rivers in the country, and I have a couple of pens from a year ago that dont show any cracks, I guess I'm just lucky.



i just called Moby dick supplies and they are still selling Unaxol, im about to place an order for it.


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## chriselle (Jan 8, 2009)

GouletPens said:


> Chris, I don't know if this will really apply to you b/c you said the wood itself isn't cracking, just the finish, but what type of glue are you using? A number of people suggest drilling the holes larger and using epoxy or a "flexible" adhesive to allow the barrel and wood to expand and contract at different rates. like I said, might not apply to you here b/c you're dealing with the wood moving and the finish not. Also, I've seen your pictures and its clear you know what the heck you're doing with your pens so please don't take my comments as "advice for the ignorant". I still suspect it's a weather/stabilized wood issue.



Hey Brian,

 This post is a little long..sorry.

 I only use 5 min epoxy for gluing.  About 95% of the wood blanks I use are stabilized.  Other than the one mallee burl blank that was poorly stabilized and cracked I haven't had any problems.  I guess I'm just whining because these three with the problems were damned near perfect...:frown:

I enjoyed reading your take on the "defense" of wood pens.  I certainly do have a like/dis-like, double edged sword relationship with wood pens in general.  I agree they are unique.  Most are very beautiful if the maker is experienced.  Of course they are natural and thus require a degree of special care in production and daily use.  That's all great.

But....

I always wonder....What is the public's image of wood pens?   Now, I'm talking about non-collectors and collectors alike. 
 The majority of peoples exposure to our wonderful little world is via craft fairs and other such local events.  Some of the artisans offer excellent craftsmanship, a very attractive display with prices that reflect their expertise.  However, The next guy down is selling out-of-round, waxed finish, boring wood slimlines strewn all over the table like so much kindling..for 20 bucks a piece(I've seen it).  
  Even a non-collector can determine the difference in quality but their image of wood pens still subconsciously screams...."WEEKEND CRAFT FAIR!!"  
  If I go to a pen specialty shop in Tokyo or even my local stationary store that carries a fine range of brand names..the only wood you are going to find in there is the pine 2x4's holding the place up.  The consumer subconsciously concludes that wood pens (even the nice ones) are somehow different which I read as inferior or amateur.  Most people have no idea why the major brands don't offer wood pens.   I have collectors come to my shop now and then...and the wood pens generally aren't of too much interest to them.....UNTIL they are educated to the actual facts that we all as penmakers know.  And when I mention that Nakaya only recently started offering a briar with clear urushi finish pen I see a shift in their perception.  And that is what it all comes down to....Perception. That's a monumental fight.
  I don't want all this to be inflammatory it's just my personal bias and push/pull struggle with offering wood pens. 

Cheers,

Chris


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## GouletPens (Jan 9, 2009)

Chris, I don't think wood can be lumped together in such a category like that. If you go to those same craft fairs, you'll also see handmade bags and paintings selling for $20 or less. Heck, one show I went to I was sitting next to an 87 year old woman who knits dish towels and sells them for $2 each!!! My point is though, that although you CAN buy cheap items like that at craft fairs, it has more to do with the venue than the product. If you went to a craft show and said "handbags and paintings are percieved as cheap" because they are cheap by amatures at craft shows, that's not true in all cases. Go buy a Birkenstock handbag or go to an art gallery and buy a painting. Not cheap at all!! People with the money will know that there is a difference between your really nice wood pens and the kindling you see at some shows. Like any product there's a market for everyone. I will never go back to the show with the towel lady, and I won't even consider another 'craft' show again. It's not a good market for me and I sold almost nothing. But I will look into juried shows like the Washington D.C. Pen Show.

Wood is a pain to deal with at times, and to sell high end pens to very discriminating customers that demand perfection is very challenging. You have to REALLY know what you're doing, from the marketing, design, wood selection, customer service, etc. But keep in mind, you're in a whole different "class" of customer when you're dealing with 'discretionary' pens like the ones most of us sell. 

I have to respectfully disagree with your statement about wood being percieved as inferior. I actually have the opposite experience with my customers. My exotic wood pens are more in demand than the acrylics (though it depends on the gender....men like wood more I've found!). If you think about the really high end Mercedes, Bentley, etc, a lot of times what make the interior so nice is the wood burl trim pieces they put in the cars. The discriminating customer will recognize that in order to harness the natural beauty of wood it takes a great deal of skill and craftsmanship. And since most brand name pens out there are not dealing with wood, it makes it all that much rarer. 

Enough rambling. There is no hard fast rule here, and your customers are on the opposite side of the globe than mine, so we're bound to have different experiences!! I fully and completely sympathize with the problems you're having with wood pens. But I have a passion for them, and to me the wood has an intrinsic value that you can't find from man made materials so I keep coming back to them. And in the end, the passion you have for your products will sell them as much as the product themselves. My passion is what literally got me into the pen business in the first place, so I will follow my own passion which is for wood, even with all of its imperfections:biggrin:


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## chriselle (Jan 9, 2009)

GouletPens said:


> Chris, I don't think wood can be lumped together in such a category like that. If you go to those same craft fairs, you'll also see handmade bags and paintings selling for $20 or less. Heck, one show I went to I was sitting next to an 87 year old woman who knits dish towels and sells them for $2 each!!! My point is though, that although you CAN buy cheap items like that at craft fairs, it has more to do with the venue than the product. If you went to a craft show and said "handbags and paintings are percieved as cheap" because they are cheap by amatures at craft shows, that's not true in all cases. Go buy a Birkenstock handbag or go to an art gallery and buy a painting. Not cheap at all!! People with the money will know that there is a difference between your really nice wood pens and the kindling you see at some shows. Like any product there's a market for everyone. I will never go back to the show with the towel lady, and I won't even consider another 'craft' show again. It's not a good market for me and I sold almost nothing. But I will look into juried shows like the Washington D.C. Pen Show.
> 
> Wood is a pain to deal with at times, and to sell high end pens to very discriminating customers that demand perfection is very challenging. You have to REALLY know what you're doing, from the marketing, design, wood selection, customer service, etc. But keep in mind, you're in a whole different "class" of customer when you're dealing with 'discretionary' pens like the ones most of us sell.
> 
> ...




Right on.  Very well said and all points taken.  In more ways than not I think we are on parallel tracks in the expression of our passion for penmaking.  It is fellows like yourself and many others around here that keep me stoked and positive and in line with my user signature...lol. 

 BTW,, that's a pretty spiffy website you have there.  Only one problem though...you're missing a "1" or preferrably a "2" in front of your prices...better fix that:biggrin:  Nice pens.

Cheers,

   Chris


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## pipecrafter (Jan 9, 2009)

chriselle said:


> I always wonder....What is the public's image of wood pens?   Now, I'm talking about non-collectors and collectors alike.




I won't claim to understand collectors.  However, I've sold (and given away) pencils to artists who pretty much demand wood.  I guess it provides a much more tactile feedback to them than synthetic materials.  And to boot, they want a very thin finish.

YMMV.

Personally, I'm not a fan of plastics, and I really like wood.  However, in a lot of designs, I don't think they work really well - like kitless fountains of the type I've been making.  In those cases, I think some materials work better than others - ebonite probably being the bar to which others are held.  

Dare I say it - it might be the BLING factor?  Brightly colored composites and plastics have a much higher "Oooh, shiny!!" appeal than most woods - which may seem rather pedestrian by comparison.


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