# looking to automate pen blank drilling...



## GouletPens (Nov 11, 2008)

I make about 300-400 pens a year, with my expansion this year aiming to be about 1000 pens so I'm looking to automate the parts of the process that aren't "skilled" labor. I'm wondering if there is a CNC mill setup or anything I can use to drill my pen blanks when I am doing production work of 50-100 pens at a time. Does anyone have any experience with this???


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## Rifleman1776 (Nov 11, 2008)

There are many kinds of industrial multi-head drill presses. Methinks most would represent a major dollar investment. But, worth looking into. There are several web sites that sell or broker used industrial machinery.
My first thought was drill first, cut after. e.g. drill into blocks then cut to blank sizes.
BTW, congratulations on successfully selling enough pens to make a vocation out of an avocation.


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## Skye (Nov 11, 2008)

Well, another option would be to hire it out to another penmaker. You'd just have to be sure that their work is up to snuff with your own.

Not the way I'd go about it as I'd prefer to have the whole pen only touch my hands during it's creation, but I'm not pushing the volume you are.


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## rjwolfe3 (Nov 11, 2008)

Depending on the kit style you can buy blanks pre-drilled from some of our suppliers.


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## GouletPens (Nov 11, 2008)

I've seen predrilled kits before, but I'm going to be making a lot of custom laminated acrylics and 8mm rollerball euro twists in amboyna burl...not really common stuff. I'm actually licensing some of my products through Virginia Tech (my alma mater), and I've practically sold a dozen or so pens by telling other alumni about it, before I've even taken pictures!

I might be able to source it out to another penmaker (though there aren't all that many around here). But I'm kinda with you Skye, I like to do things myself  Of course, I can always commission my wife to drill them for me. After all, she's the boss anyway!


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## Blind_Squirrel (Nov 11, 2008)

Take it in waves.  Set aside one day to measure, cut, drill and glue 50 - 100 blanks.  The next day true the ends and turn.

Also, if you get into pouring your own resins you can cast directly to the tubes.  This eliminates drilling, gluing and saves on resin.


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## alphageek (Nov 11, 2008)

I agree with Scott... If you batch your work, you'll find that you can do 1 or 2 processes (drilling and glueing for example) getting much more done in the prep work space.

I often do this, and I'm not even at the volume you are yet.   I can prep 20 pens if I batch them in the time it takes to do 1 or 2 if I'm building a blank 'from scratch' for a specific purpose.


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## ed4copies (Nov 11, 2008)

Keep in mind, 300 a year is less than one a day.

1000 per year is about 3 a day.

I easily make ten pens in an evening (3.5-4hours), during the show season.  Not tough!


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## Paul in OKC (Nov 11, 2008)

If you want a cnc mill, I'd look at a Taig set up. You could build a fixture to set up a few blanks needing the same bit and drill them. Taig cnc mill is around $1600, maybe a tad more.  If you have a good eye, you could make a fixture with some angle iron to hold blanks straight up and down, with a fence to guide (if the blanks are the same size square), and drill a few at a time that way.


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## NewLondon88 (Nov 11, 2008)

would you really want to 'automate' blank drilling, anyway?
Wouldn't heat be an issue? I can't get through half of one
pen blank without stopping to clear the chips..


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## GouletPens (Nov 11, 2008)

I agree that heat would be an issue, I know when I drill I pull the bit back at least every 1/4", more so if I'm working with burls. Them damn burls are too expensive to break, y'know what I mean? 

I know automating the drilling seems odd, but it's one of the few steps you can even consider automating. Unless you consider forcing my wife to glue the tubes to be "automation"  

Maybe I won't find an ideal solution, but all I know is I spend at least an hour a day drilling and I would love it if that was less. You can see my website and see the kind of stuff I'm making, my finishing process alone takes several hours for cure time and whatnot. 

Like most any other turner, I hate to give up any part of the process to anyone else, because "I can do it better myself", but realistically I am going to have to look at something to make the tedious parts of the process go faster otherwise I'm going to be paying myself a very cheap wage....


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## Paul in OKC (Nov 11, 2008)

The thing if you go cnc is that you can 'peck' drill. Set the amount of depth to drill for each 'peck' and it will return to a point above the blank to clear the chips.


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## OKLAHOMAN (Nov 11, 2008)

Whats all the fuss about drilling a thousand blanks? I use Paul in OKC's vise and easy drill 20-30 blanks in a couple of hours, if this is your vocation and you can avg. 10 blanks an hour and 8 hr. day would be 80 blanks and 14 days later you would have over 1100 blanks drilled. I know no one would spend two weeks just drilling I'm just saying in the course of a years working you would only spend 2 weeks drilling leaving 48 weeks for turning, assembly,merchandising  and all the other things it requires to run a business and 2 weeks well deserved vacation. BTW I made well over 700 pens this year and it's not my full time job.


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## Blind_Squirrel (Nov 11, 2008)

OKLAHOMAN said:


> BTW I made well over 700 pens this year and it's not my full time job.


 
I have made over 7 pens this year and it's not my full time job either! :biggrin:


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## OKLAHOMAN (Nov 11, 2008)

Now Scott that's impressive for a _*Bind Squirrel*_:wink: 





Blind_Squirrel said:


> I have made over _*7*_ pens this year and it's not my full time job either! :biggrin:


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## GouletPens (Nov 11, 2008)

It's not just about how many pens I make, but how many I SELL. After all, who wants to be surrounded by hundreds of their own pens? It's the same reason that I would rather use Tax software than do it on paper....it frees me up to do other things. If you actually think about drilling pen blanks for 8 hours a day for two weeks....that would be probably the most boring thing I could think of. Besides, as anyone who sells pens knows, Christmas is harvest season. And for someone like myself who sells through custom orders and corporate sales, I can't prepare very much in the off season because I don't know what people will want. I agree that if you're making a ton of pens for craft shows that you don't need to automate. You can make whatever the heck you want and people will either buy it or not. But when you're running a business you have to consider every minute of time you're spending on a task as money you're spending. That's why if I can have a machine do a brainless task for me, I will. Maybe it's just a Gen Y thing


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## alphageek (Nov 11, 2008)

First Brian, I have to say someone who says "who wants to be surrounded by hundreds of their own pens" has their avatar as just that???

I think that you'll be surprised at how close your "running a business" is to those "making whatever the heck you want".

Even those doing craft shows need to 'know their customer' and follow what is needed.

Automation is a slippery slope.... If your doing corporate sales, why not use a duplicator or cnc machine for the whole thing?   You're going to want to keep your art and uniqueness in things and I think you're going to have a tough time mixing that with automation.  Picture those 'expensive' burls... You going to trust them to an automated process?

I'm not saying your wrong or that automation is bad (trust me - I'd love the blanks to drill themselves), but I think you're going to find thats not going to be easy to solve.

I hope you don't take this the wrong way... I'm just trying to 'free your mind' to some other views on the idea.


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## Paul in OKC (Nov 11, 2008)

I do have to agree with Roy about my vise (of course, I AM just a bit prejudiced). It was sometime before I even had my own PH vise. When I had an order for 50 pens, Igot them cut up, and sat down to drill. Man was that side opening ever the greatest. No fumbling about getting the blank out from around the drill bit. Now,.........


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## GouletPens (Nov 11, 2008)

alpha....I completely agree with you....yeah and I didn't really think it through that I literally am surrounded by my pens in my picture. What a jerk I must seem like! I apologize to everyone.

It is a slippery slope, and I may not end up automating anything. The general feedback I've gotten about CNC and automation is that it's not easy, cheap, or fast. That would be the only reasons I would do it! We always have to try to push the boundaries of what's been done before, if not, then we'd all be peddling our lathes by foot. 

The real question is....at what point does something stop being "handmade"???


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## alphageek (Nov 11, 2008)

No apology necesary, Brian..    I was just harassing you about the picture   I know that humor and such is tough in written form... You'll get used to us here.   I'm still a newbie in some of this crowd.

As for the last question, I ask that of my stuff ALL the time.  I'd love to automate some pieces, but need to stay handmade and unique to be where I want to be.


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## jkeithrussell (Nov 13, 2008)

Brian -- I don't have any input on your discussion about the drilling process, but wanted to say that I like your website.


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## sdemars (Nov 13, 2008)

*I wonder . . . .*



Paul in OKC said:


> I do have to agree with Roy about my vise (of course, I AM just a bit prejudiced). It was sometime before I even had my own PH vise. When I had an order for 50 pens, Igot them cut up, and sat down to drill. Man was that side opening ever the greatest. No fumbling about getting the blank out from around the drill bit. Now,.........



I sit here wondering what it would be like to have a "REALLY NICE" vise . . . . uuuuuumm . . .

Where would someone get something like that . . .?

Steve


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## Daniel (Nov 13, 2008)

Brian, auto drilling woudl not be as much of a problem in my opinion (it free and worth every penny) but auto loading would be a bear. In my experience I can drill blanks at the rate of about one every 5 to 10 seconds when doing one right after the other. That was wood though and I would not even try that fast in acrylics or burls. The point still hold though that if yo line up 100 blanks and go to town the actual time at the press is not that much. I've drilled blanks for 100 slimlines (200 drilling actions) in less than 15 minutes. I think your time and money may be better spent elsewhere when looking to cut production time. Some suggestions I do have to time savings, do it like an essembly line as much as possible. this increases the manotany but also decreases time per piece drastically. My son and I cut, drilled, glued, turned, finished and assembled in that order 100 slimlines in two evenings. about 6 to 8 hours. the only automation we used at all was my son turned the barrels to final dia with my metal lathe. I rough turned them round on my wood lathe. it was the most non stop boring turning I have ever done though.
have a bored with nails in it to stick the turned barrels on at arms reach. this makes a quick and easy way to hold all the blanks and keep them in order if you are concerned with matching grain etc. 
Like others have said your thoughts of 1000 pens a year is really not that taxing of an idea. not trying to belittle your thinking at all, just thinking that maybe you see it as much more than it will really take. I seem to recall someone once posting that they made something like 14 or 15000 pens a year. now that would be getting into some extreme effort for me. Ed on the other hand, well he's just getting warmed up at the 12k mark. I've watched for years as he posted pictures of thos 10 pens a night or so. I still have no idea how he does it. knowing what he is doing probably has something to do with it.


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## jkeithrussell (Nov 13, 2008)

Daniel -- 10 pens a night is only 3650 pens.  If someone is making 15,000 per year, he/she is making 41 pens per day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year.  5 pens an hour for an 8 hour day, only 365 days a year.  I'm sure it's possible, but I'd have to see it to believe it.  Would that even be fun?


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## GouletPens (Nov 13, 2008)

I'd be curious to see exactly what one of these 14 or 15,000 pens looks like. Sure I can MAKE a whole bunch of pens real fast....but they will sacrifice in sanding/fit/finish the faster I go. It's all of the inspection and perfection that takes the time anyway. I'd much rather go a little slower and charge more for a high quality pen than try to shovel them out the door. It's also going to vary quite a bit whether you're working with a bunch of slims made of elm or something vs. making Jr. Statesmans out of amboyna burl...all that time filling the burl with glue and whatnot as you go so it doesn't blow up in your face. You can only go but so fast with stuff like that.

Besides, I'm a one man shop, and for every pen I make, that's time spent doing invoicing, marketing, customer interaction, shipping, packaging, etc. I'd much rather try to keep myself sane and raise my prices than crank out pens like some kind of penmaking tornado, right?


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## gatornick (Nov 13, 2008)

On the drilling automation idea.  What about a boring machine like this one.  I don't see why you couldn't make a jig to hold all the blanks, then drill all at once.  You could drill slowly and back out to clear chips, but you would be getting alot of blanks done at once.  Just an idea.


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## jedgerton (Nov 13, 2008)

*Here's the tool for you!*

If you really want to automate the process of drilling blanks, here is the tool for you 

http://austin.craigslist.org/tls/917994816.html

Add four of Paul's famous vise's and you've got one mean pen blank drilling machine.

John


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## Randy_ (Nov 14, 2008)

I'd give some thought to hiring some hungry Hokie student to do your drilling for you.


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## Daniel (Nov 14, 2008)

Brian, from what I remember he bought wood and cut blanks by the thousands with no regard to grain or figure at all. it was pure volume. I am not sure just what finish he used but I do remember pictures of baskets of blanks he had drying and that he sold the pens for something like $12.00 ea. He was trying to find a source for low cost pen kits to by a thousand at a time etc. He didn't hang around here for long that I know of. I think he realized that there was not going to be much information here for what he was doing.


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## wdcav1952 (Nov 14, 2008)

Although the numbers are a bit inflated, it sounds to me that the last few posts are referring to member jrc (Jim in Vermont).

He sells slimline pens that he makes very quickly compared to most.  Some may disagree with his approach, but it works for him and his market.

Jim was generous enough to share his philosophy with the forum some time back and was attacked by those who disagreed with him.  I do NOT post this to start an open season on him and his techniques.  I choose to believe that there is room at the pen turning table for different thoughts, turning styles and finishing techniques.


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## Randy_ (Nov 15, 2008)

ed4copies said:


> Keep in mind, 300 a year is less than one a day.
> 
> 1000 per year is about 3 a day.
> 
> I easily make ten pens in an evening (3.5-4hours), during the show season. *Not tough!*


 
Agreed.  But I bet it would get a little "old" for a lot of folks if they had to do it 365 days a year??


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## Randy_ (Nov 15, 2008)

GouletPens said:


> I make about 300-400 pens a year, with my expansion this year aiming to be about 1000 pens *so I'm looking to automate the parts of the process that aren't "skilled" labor. *I'm wondering if there is a CNC mill setup or anything I can use to drill my pen blanks when I am doing production work of 50-100 pens at a time. Does anyone have any experience with this???


 
With as many questions as there are here about problems drilling blanks, you may be dismissing that task a little lightly by characterizing it as unskilled labor??


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## george (Nov 15, 2008)

ed4copies said:


> Keep in mind, 300 a year is less than one a day.
> 
> 1000 per year is about 3 a day.
> 
> I easily make ten pens in an evening (3.5-4hours), during the show season.  Not tough!



Ok, now this is schocking to me. Is it really possible to make 10 pens in 4 hours ? That is 2 barell pen with let say CA finish ?
Are you all that fast ????
Or am I that slow ????

Oh, and regarding massive pen production. I make a lot of maple barells for school fountain pen (last year about 70.000) on automatic lathe. But I much more enjoy while working handmade pens; I think that with massive production the personal touch is soon gone. And also the fun.


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## OKLAHOMAN (Nov 15, 2008)

George most if not 95% of all of Eds pens are acrylic so the finish is not CA but MM'ing and then buff and he's been doing this since God created dirt.





george said:


> Ok, now this is schocking to me. Is it really possible to make 10 pens in 4 hours ? That is 2 barell pen with let say CA finish ?
> Are you all that fast ????
> Or am I that slow ????
> 
> Oh, and regarding massive pen production. I make a lot of maple barells for school fountain pen (last year about 70.000) on automatic lathe. But I much more enjoy while working handmade pens; I think that with massive production the personal touch is soon gone. And also the fun.


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## george (Nov 15, 2008)

OKLAHOMAN said:


> George most if not 95% of all of Eds pens are acrylic so the finish is not CA but MM'ing and then buff and he's been doing this since God created dirt.



Thanks. I almost start beliving that I must be the slowest penturner in the world.


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## MesquiteMan (Nov 15, 2008)

OKLAHOMAN said:


> George most if not 95% of all of Eds pens are acrylic so the finish is not CA but MM'ing and then buff and he's been doing this since God created dirt.


 
Well damn, you mean Ed is not OLDER than dirt?  You have now ruined my perception of him! :biggrin:


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## GouletPens (Nov 15, 2008)

George...don't fret. I don't make pens nearly that fast either. Actually, I talked to a guy from Sawmill Creek a while ago and he said he entered into some pen turning speed contest at his local club and turned and finished something like 200 pens in 2 hours....granted he already had them glued and squared but still. That's a lot of frickin' pens. I look at it like any other product out there, because that's really what they are. You have a whole lot of really cheap ones that anyone can buy, and you have fewer really nice ones that few people will buy. You just have to decide who you're going to go after. Do you want to be a Walmart selling bics to the masses, or Mont-Blanc only selling to the richest in the world? The beauty is, there's room for everyone, and we all help each other out. The cheap ones make the nice ones seem nicer, and the expensive ones make the cheap ones seem like a good deal. The only time you get in trouble is when you try to sell a certain pen to the wrong group.


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## jkeithrussell (Nov 18, 2008)

I've had a good week if I have enough time to make 5 or 6 pens, so it's hard for me to imagine people cranking them out like that.  I hope you guys who make a bunch every day have comfortable shoes and a good filtration system in your shop.


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## heinedan (Nov 18, 2008)

Hello,

I have seen Ed work his magic with just a skew. He had that blank round in about 75 seconds. I didn't get close enough to see how he was doing it, but I would sure love to know. I'm still trying to get the hang of proper skew usage. Ed is amazing with it!!!

Dan


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## sbell111 (Nov 18, 2008)

george said:


> Ok, now this is schocking to me. Is it really possible to make 10 pens in 4 hours ? That is 2 barell pen with let say CA finish ?
> Are you all that fast ????
> Or am I that slow ????
> 
> Oh, and regarding massive pen production. I make a lot of maple barells for school fountain pen (last year about 70.000) on automatic lathe. But I much more enjoy while working handmade pens; I think that with massive production the personal touch is soon gone. And also the fun.


My wife and I recently set up at a four-day show.  We started out with what we believed to be a good amount of pens to sell, but much to our surprise two of the favorite sellers sold huge.  On each day of the show, we'd get home around ten or a bit before and crank out more BOW and JD pens, usually ten or twelve pens before we crashed around 12:30.

I would prep the blanks and she would turn and finish them for me to assemble, so this wasn't one person making pens from start to finish.  On the other hand, we only worked on them for a couple hours.

Of course, the shop was a complete disaster by the end of the week.


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## Chasper (Nov 18, 2008)

LOML is in the thick of a group of selling shows, the selling tables are going to be set up for 8 consecutive days in three locations; 39 hours of showing.  Saturday evening she made a list of what I needed to make ASAP.  6 olive wood low end pens, 4 antler cartridge pens, 4 antler low end pens, 6 bottle stoppers, 10 key chains, 3 Jr. Gents/Barons; total of 33 items.

Starting 4:00 am Sunday morning I picked out the wood and matched it with the kits, cut them down to size, drilled, glued, trimmed the ends, etc.  At 9:00 am I had everything to the "ready to turn" stage and 8 items were finished.  Between 3:00 and 8:00 pm I fininished 16 more.  Last night in 4 hours I finished the rest of them.  Total of 33 items in 14 hours, average of 25 minutes and 30 seconds per item.  That is as fast as I can make them, and nearly a third of them were quick to make keychains.  

That adds up to 1000 items in 53 eight hour days.  If I allow a 50% time cushion so I can go slower and make more higher grade pens I should still be able to make 1000 in less than 650 hours or 16 hours per week for 40 weeks per year.  That is not allowing any time for ordering supplies, repairing tools or cleaning shop.  My sense of the time requirement is that I can't quite make 1000 per year and still enjoy doing this.


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## wolftat (Nov 18, 2008)

You can always try talking to the woodshop instructors at the local high schools. They are always looking for a little extra cash for the shops and it helps keep the kids occupied and at the same time teach them how boring something can actually be.


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## Rifleman1776 (Nov 19, 2008)

As long as you can maintain quality and have customers, who are we to question what you are doing? Even if your quality is lousy but you are making a profit, that's still free enterprise.


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## GouletPens (Nov 19, 2008)

*amazed...*

Wow...I'm impressed at the sheer number of people that have gotten involved in this post...and the number of views! It seems that whenever I have some sort of practical question, it always ends up turning into a philosophical discussion of some kind....

I think it's evident that we all have WAY too much time to think when we're standing at the lathe....


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## Daniel (Nov 19, 2008)

Brian, Don't take it all to seriously. There is a pretty prevalent idea here that faster and more is not better. It is also pretty much assumed that faster and more equates to lower quality. it is more the quality that is the issue than the volume. If a way to make a 5 minute slimline was developed that made a pen with the same quality as one that took an hour, it would pretty much across the board be rejected here. penmaking is something most want to spend time doing. There are those like you that want to make a business of it and so time savings is important and relavant to your goals. My advise is listen to those that seem to have your goals not theirs in mind. otherwise you know what they say about opinions.
And the issue that anything can become a philosophical  discussion. Yep pretty much wit this bunch but that is not personal either. just artists.


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## JohnLifer (Nov 20, 2008)

GouletPens said:


> alpha....I completely agree with you....yeah and I didn't really think it through that I literally am surrounded by my pens in my picture. What a jerk I must seem like! I apologize to everyone.
> 
> It is a slippery slope, and I may not end up automating anything. The general feedback I've gotten about CNC and automation is that it's not easy, cheap, or fast. That would be the only reasons I would do it! We always have to try to push the boundaries of what's been done before, if not, then we'd all be peddling our lathes by foot.
> 
> The real question is....at what point does something stop being "handmade"???



When you buy them off of the Chinese already made 

I tried the Taig lathe thing a few years back and didn't like it.  Not handmade in my opinion.
Best advice has been given, to a batch.. If you are selling 50 this month, drill all 50, glue all 50, turn and finish.  I found in past this was the best way to get quantity made.  In the early 90's when this was relatively new phenomenon, I sold several thousand a year for a couple of years.  ALL slimlines and all friction finish.  Sanded to about 1000 grit depending on wood. I could turn and finish 10 an hour depending on how small the square was and the wood.  Wasn't a lot of fun after several hundred a week done after work in the evening in a cold shop.  I do just a few at a time right now and enjoy it more.  But no money as none are sold.  If you are doing higher end pens, take your time and enjoy at least the turning.
Cutting drilling glueing are kind of mindless tasks.  Enjoyable if you've had hard day at work and need to unwind.


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## TellicoTurning (Nov 21, 2008)

Blind_Squirrel said:


> Take it in waves.  Set aside one day to measure, cut, drill and glue 50 - 100 blanks.  The next day true the ends and turn.



I agree with Scott also... I generally always work in batches... I'll set up from 10-20 pens in one session, match the blanks to kits, then mark and cut to tube size, then drill and glue the tubes.. each step takes from 30-60 minutes, depending on how dedicated I am to the task.. I prefer for the tubes to set up overnight after I glue them, even with CA.   It usually takes me longer to decide on the matching of the blank to the kit then the rest of the process.  

I do this even with peppermills, If I'm doing multiple woods/glue ups, I glue up all I'm going to work with, let them set overnight, then cut to size, rough round the blanks, then drill the blanks and set aside to turn... I turn them to shape and set aside until all are done, then start the finish process.   I generally work in half dozen increments on the PM's as my drying rack only holds that many mills.


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