# BAKELITE question for "kitless folks"



## wood-of-1kind (Dec 5, 2012)

This question is directed towards our "kitless pens" folks here at IAP. Can you offer your comment(s) regarding the use of BAKELITE for making your components for your kitless pens. Body, cap, section for fountain pen. 

I personally know that it "machines" well but I have never used taps and dies on this type of material. Does it hold a thread well? Can you use "regular" taps and dies as you would on say acrylic, ceboplast, poly resin?

Any input from you (user) is appreciated.


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## Dalecamino (Dec 5, 2012)

Peter, in the near future I intend to find out the answers to your question. I still have ONE blank of the Bakelite from Ed & Dawn I bought a few years ago. I am VERY confident that threading will not be a concern, having already made an Emperor with it. I say this with confidence, BUT I will not know for sure until I try it. Sorry, not much help, but at least I'm with you on this one.


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## hewunch (Dec 5, 2012)

I have heard that it is incredibly brittle and I have experienced that first hand. Thus, one way around that is to use ebonite or alumalite inserts.


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## PenMan1 (Dec 5, 2012)

IF you can manage to DRILL Bakelite, you can thread it, tap it, turn it and shine it. REGARDLESS of the type of pen you are making, Bakelite IS A WITCH to drill.

If you can still find some of the pre-drilled rods, they are less prone to cracking. if not, drill slowly for 1/2 inch, withdraw and cool the bit, then go again. Too much speed or too much heat will cause it to crack in a perfectly straight line, rendering the rod useless. DAMHIKT!

For threading, PAM cooking spray helps Bakelite to make nice smooth threads, IF you go slowly. Otherwise the threads could get "chippy".


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## wood-of-1kind (Dec 5, 2012)

Thanks to the responses so far. I am very much encouraged with the use of this material and have just finished a Euro style pen. Drilling the blanks was not difficult and I just used my regular 7mm brad point bit. Heats up and smokes a bit but nothing too unusual. Turning was a bit of a challenge but somewhat like turning antler. The Bakelite stuff has a pungent odor and the smell still lingers in the shop, even after ample time to ventilate. As a precaution I wore a respirator since this stuff turns into 'powder". No shavings or curls whatsoever. And yes, I did turn it using a fresh carbide insert.

A lot has been mentioned that it is a brittle material. I did not find this to be the case. Would really like to try and see if regular taps/dies will work on Bakelite. As much as I have searched for 'vintage' pens that were made of this material, there really aren't a lot of these pens out there. Down the road I plan on doing a fancier style of pen and hopefully it will be show worthy.

Please keep your comments coming if you have turned with Bakelite, I really want to hear more of your experiences.


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## chriselle (Dec 5, 2012)

Drilling a 7mm hole is much less stressful than drilling a ~14mm one....  Bakelite has a huge pucker factor for anything kitless.  I'm at about a 50/50 for drilling larger bores and the ones that were successful I just made inserts for.  Also, I'm not sure this in the best time of year to be trying it....if you have an unheated shop like mine...:frown:


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## wood-of-1kind (Dec 5, 2012)

chriselle said:


> Drilling a 7mm hole is a lot different than drilling a ~14mm one....  Bakelite has a huge pucker factor for anything kitless.  I'm at about a 50/50 for drilling larger bores and the ones that were successful I just made inserts for.  Also, I'm not sure this in the best time of year to be trying it....if you have an unheated shop like mine...:frown:




Yah, I start small (7mm) and work my way up (bigger). Will try a Jr. Series next (10 and 12.5mm) and see if drilling is a challenge. Will heat in the shop be a factor? My shop is also unheated but anything above 40 degrees Fahrenheit is almost 'balmy" weather for me. Only in Canada, eh?


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## chriselle (Dec 5, 2012)

Ya....I don't know but it just seems to make sense to me that the warmer a brittle material is the better chance of not breaking it.  Bust out the wife's hair dryer and give the bakelite a blast..:biggrin:  That 12.5 drill should get our heart pounding....:tongue:


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## PenMan1 (Dec 5, 2012)

My shop is heated and I live in a hot, humid area of the world, too. I agree with Chris, that a warm Bakelite is much more manageable than cold.

As for drilling, I wouldn't even attempt drilling a 12.5 mm or bigger hole without first pre-drilling with a 7mm and SOMETIMES followed by a 10 or 10.5 mm.

A GOOD, inexpensive "test" to see if your skills will allow you to thread Bakelite is to practice threading on an AA blank. Bakelite threads similarly to Acrylic A or Polyester resin. All of these materials CAN be threaded, but again, I'm NOT SURE that adding threading sleeves isn't the better solution.


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## PenMan1 (Dec 5, 2012)

Additionally, Bakelite is a darn good reason to start ANY SIZED HOLE with a center bit. Even with the most advance "holding and drilling" set up, I've noticed more "bit drift" in Bakelite than any material other than knotty "pitch" pine.


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## mrburls (Dec 6, 2012)

I've done pretty many full size Emperor pens in bakelite and drilled with proper size bit and no pre drilling with smaller bits first. But I did use the Colt 5 Star pen drill bits with pam cooking spry. This is about the only bits I use and have very good succes drilling all my materials with these bits. And if I don't have a bit quiet big enough I will go in with a regular twist bit to clean up hole to proper size after using a Colt bit. 
I've only cracked one bakelite blank that I recall out of many drilled.

I do agree that if you have one of the blanks that was molded with the 3/8" hole already in blank, that is the way to go. There were some nice blanks like that avaible a while back in caramel swirl, lemon swirl and solid black that I know of.

Keith "mrburls"


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## OKLAHOMAN (Dec 6, 2012)

I have made many Emperor, Lotus and Majestic sized component sets with Bakelite and drilled with the proper sized bits. Make sure the bits are sharp, drill slow, use a lubricant, I have not tried threading Bakelite but back in the 30's many pens were made of Bakelite and were threaded so I would think it can be threaded but again go slow, use lubricant and make sure your taps and dies are clean. I have a good amount of Bakelite and hope to get into the shop soon and attempt a few custom pens with it so I hope it will thread.


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## wood-of-1kind (Dec 6, 2012)

Thanks Roy and others for some rather informative responses.

Roy, have you actually seen many of these "30's" produced Balelite pens? I believe that the term Bakelite is sometines confused with "celluloid" or some other "plastic" material when in fact is quite different. The awful stink that Bakelite produces is what gives it away including the "clothlike" pattern of layered stacks.

Would love to hear your feedback when you have time for making your pen(s) and how well the "threads" are turned.

Best regards,


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## OKLAHOMAN (Dec 6, 2012)

Peter most of the 20's and 30's Bake-lite pens used an Ebonite section but it was screwed into the Bake-lite barrel. From all the reading I've done on Bake-lite pens it seems that the treads do ware, here is an example of a 20's Bake-Lite pen showing the threading, it is a Parker Jack-Knife Safety: rare baby Bakelite-barreled ring top eyedropper-filler.
click 6218
6218


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## rstought (Dec 6, 2012)

That's a very interesting example. I have been very successful at creating female threads in bakelite, both fine triple start (cap) and slightly more coarse single start (usually 10x1, for the section). However, I have been far less successful with male threads - although much better with the section threads when compared to the barrel threads (I think I'm currently batting .000 with the latter) - so maybe there is a reason this manufacturer (and perhaps others?) chose to do the barrel threads in ebonite.


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## skiprat (Dec 6, 2012)

I have a few wonderful bits of Bakelite but I think perhaps that it may dry out a little and become more brittle with age. Either that or I dried it out with the chemicals in the polish, I dunno. 
Although the pen below isn't kitless it does have it's issues. This pic is old but there are sections on the pen that have 'flaked' off. Almost like it has de-laminated along it's pattern. But luckily only in a small spot or two. 

I think I've only threaded one baketlite pen part and it wasn't the threading that failed, but my own stupidity when I took it to the buffing wheel.......:redface:

Fragile material and especially segmented pen blanks can IMO be more safely 'drilled' by using a boring head instead of a drill bit. It doesn't get warm ( let alone hot ) and you can sneak up on the exact size you want. So even though it may cost more than a drill bit, it's size range is infinite ( well, upto 38mm dia for my one ):biggrin:


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## wood-of-1kind (Dec 6, 2012)

Beautiful pen Skippy. And I have to check out your boring head tool, not familiar with this type of 'toy' especially if it is effective with segmented blanks.


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## airborne_r6 (Dec 6, 2012)

I'm not sure that you can effectively use a boring head on a wood lathe, I thought they required the slides and what not that are found on metal lathes.

Has anyone used one on a wood lathe? There are several things that I think would be considerably easier to do with one.


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## panamag8or (Dec 6, 2012)

wood-of-1kind said:


> As much as I have searched for 'vintage' pens that were made of this material, there really aren't a lot of these pens out there.



Bakelite wasn't the material of choice for pen manufacturers back then. Celluloid  is the dominant material on most "between the wars" vintage pens. Before that, they used hard rubber. After WWII, there were a variety of plastics to choose from.


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## skiprat (Dec 6, 2012)

airborne_r6 said:


> I'm not sure that you can effectively use a boring head on a wood lathe, I thought they required the slides and what not that are found on metal lathes.
> 
> Has anyone used one on a wood lathe? There are several things that I think would be considerably easier to do with one.


 
 If you can drill on a wood lathe then you can use a boring head on a wood lathe. If you think you can't do something, then you probably won't be able to do it. 
My boring head works just fine in my wood lathe AND in my metal lathe AND in my drill press. It doesn't need any slides or what not. 
Oh, AND it works just fine as an offset tailstock centre for taper turning too. :wink: When I get a chance, I'll make it do other stuff too. :biggrin:


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## airborne_r6 (Dec 7, 2012)

skiprat said:


> airborne_r6 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not sure that you can effectively use a boring head on a wood lathe, I thought they required the slides and what not that are found on metal lathes.
> ...



I'm glad I posted that comment, I thought that boring heads were fixed and that it could only be advanced with the tail stock and required a slide for the lateral adjustment. Now that I see the lateral adjustment is in the boring head I see how it can be used in a wood lathe, and it is the perfect solution to something I have not been able to figure out how to do.  Thanks Skip!


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