# Where have all the flowers gone



## OKLAHOMAN (Apr 24, 2013)

A few days ago I was listening to an oldies station on the radio and a song by Peter Seegar, sung by The Kingston  Trio  “Where have all the flowers gone” was on and it made me think of “Where have all the turners gone”.  Don’t get me wrong I know we have 14,500 members but have you noticed  that we’ve not heard from members like “Doc” (Wizard) Justin (Timebandit), Toni,   just to name a couple and in the last few months we’ve seen very few custom or kitless pens and we’re seeing more and more post that will get 40-50 reply’s that have absolutely  nothing to do with pen making . We’re losing a lot of talented pen makers and their knowledge. 
  In the past we lost Members like Gerry Rhodes not only a talented pen maker but also a photographer that showed us how to photograph pens, Lou Metcalf another great pen maker and was our expert on fountain pens,   William Cavanaugh who was our comic relief and our spelling police, Ed Davidson who wrote many of the tutorials in the library, Keith Larrett  another great pen maker and disciple of Eagle,
  Steven Jackson  and George Butcher both have left us but thankfully came back, let’s find out why they left and came back, maybe in that way we can stop others from leaving. I know we will lose some as they just get tired of the hobby and go onto other things but if some have other reasons  that could be avoided, let’s find a way to keep them and their knowledge


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## BRobbins629 (Apr 24, 2013)

I couldn't agree more Roy.  Been thinking the same thing.  Some have moved on to different interests, some busy with their jobs or life changes, some didn't like the rule changes, some felt they were over moderated, etc.  Perhaps some liked it more when the membership was smaller and we felt like we knew the active ones.


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## jttheclockman (Apr 24, 2013)

Roy that list is just the tip of the iceberg as they say. There was so many talented pen makers here through the years. To find out why they left will be difficult because they are no longer here. I, myself left here for about a year (not that anyone noticed and I do not have 1/4 of the talent some of the past members here have) but came back after a talk with Steve(Skiprat). I started to write this big long list of reasons and deleted it. I deleted it because I am sure you are well aware of most of the reasons why people leave here. Alot are personal and each individual dealt with different aspects of them. So i will leave them to others.

What I can say and mention are some observations.

I think alot of people lose the desire to make pens or just give up on the hobby for various reason such as illness, family matters, or just plain lose of interest (bored). Some people find out quickly it is not a cheap hobby so they cut their losses and get out.  Some people tried this because turning in the 90's was the big rave and people are all about fads. That fad has stepped back. I still think though you see with the influx of so many Newbies joining here that some of this is still lingering but they too will quickly quit and try other things. It takes a purist to stay with a hobby and continue to want to improve and invent and try new things. I think today's world has taught us it is OK to be a quitter. Things may not feel or go the way we planned so lets sell off the lathe and move onto other things. You will not stop that attitude.  

It takes a certain person to want to make this a hobby just to make a few dollars and then it takes someone totally different who wants to take it to a career thing. I think there needs that balance so that you do not get burned out and give up on a great relaxing hobby such as this. 

I do not see the varience of talent here that you once had. Don't get me wrong, there are people here that have talent and some are showing us some new things but not nearly as many when this site first started. Granted so many things have been invented so to speak over the years that alot of people keep asking what else is there to do with a pen???  That frame of mind is a defeated attitude that will not keep your interest at all. What made some of the better penmakers that came through here was the attitude of what can we do to make things better or new. This is the same throughout life. Sometimes invention is the root of needs. Making a pen is not a need. 

I am starting to ramble and probably did not answer your question. But I can say that I came back because I still have that burning desire to create pens. I still have a few pens in my saved album from members here that surely I want to try to duplicate to honor them and to say I figured out how they did them. Time will tell on these. I also would like to pass on any knowledge that may help others in the field of segmenting and along the way accumilate more knowledge. 

Hopefully some of the Newbies will become the old Guard and pass the torch and keep this hobby alive and growing. I still believe we have just touched the tip of what a pen can look like.


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## theidlemind (Apr 24, 2013)

I really miss the three you mentioned, Roy. 

I still look through Wizards pictures of his custom pens and hope to get to his level someday. 

Still buying drills and taps, still reading and looking at pictures........


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## Displaced Canadian (Apr 24, 2013)

Few thoughts, I think some buy a book on pen making and check a few websites and think they can make all kinds of money in their spare time and soon find out it isn't true. Some probably make pens for a while and then move on to other things. Someone once mentioned that pen makers have a "shelf life" of about 3 years. I think over moderation is an excuse not a reason. I'm sure that if membership was canceled after 3 years if inactivity we would find our numbers in the hundreds. With 14000 members you would think when we have a pen exchange there would be more than 300 people to sign up. 
 It would be nice to know why. Maybe there is something that can be done to keep them here, maybe not. Roy asked where have all the flowers gone? I think of the song who is gonna fill their shoes?


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## monark88 (Apr 24, 2013)

I like the question and I'll answer My 'why'.
I started turning pens, probably about 2003, after a fellow teacher gave my wife a slimline pen(she still has it and it still works as new). I felt I could do this, especially since I had turn on a rod machine for many years. Similar process especially with turning wood handle/reel seat parts.

I joined in 2010 and found this site to be overflowing with info, plus. I started selling pens almost immediately, slthough believe it or not, I just wanted a nice hobby to relax with in my retirement. I had retired early at 59 and I was unbelievably bored. 

I started building a plane and that was stopped in the middle of the build because of a saw accident. That also stopped my rod building because of the need for dexterity with the small threads.

Then in 2010, the same year I joined IAP, my daughter was diagnosed Cancer. After losing her later that year, I had little desire to continue with pens, but pushed myself to do so, on a smaller basis. I no longer would sell pens. I made them to give away. And gave away many.

I had an accident last year that prevented my standing and little walking. I have just recently, with physical therapy began to stand and am setting rearranging/cleaning out out my shop(garage). New equipment.

In the meantime, I have hung out here, voicing my opinion/commenting occasionally when something touched my interest. I have discovered much here on IAP and would feel very bad if anyone felt that I was not as interested as some of the more vocal and experienced folks here

OK, OK, I know TMI, but the question was presented and I felt I had to answer, hopefully according to the spirit of the question,
Russ


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## DaveTTC (Apr 24, 2013)

BRobbins629 said:


> I couldn't agree more Roy.  Been thinking the same thing.  Some have moved on to different interests, some busy with their jobs or life changes, some didn't like the rule changes, some felt they were over moderated, etc.  Perhaps some liked it more when the membership was smaller and we felt like we knew the active ones.



What rule changes were there.


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## broitblat (Apr 24, 2013)

FWIW, I'll give my example.

I've never been one of the top contributors, but I used to be a lot more involved/engaged with the site.  I'm still very interested, but work (and occasionally other distractions) has just really been a lot more consuming lately.  I've had only limited occasional time to get in the shop and have tended to keep my projects less ambitious which means the few pieces I've turned out are usually not very interesting to post, either.

  -Barry


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## Texatdurango (Apr 24, 2013)

No doubt there have been many fine pen turners and pen makers who no longer visit the forum but none of the ones I can think of or have spoken to left because things at work got busy or they got bored with pen making, they got tired of or bored with the forum because it no longer offered anything of interest to them!  Like many others I come here to discuss pen making and when pen making becomes secondary to all the e-commerce going on, I see little that holds my interest.  

I joined six years ago and the difference between the forum then and now is daylight and dark!    

 In my mind, one of the main changes was the commercialization of the forum which started a couple years ago.  For a while it seemed that every other post was about someone selling kits or blanks and so many people were out to make a buck from their fellow members that actual pen making became secondary.  Quite a few heated threads erupted and all the bickering got so bad that Jeff made some drastic changes regarding how and where vendors could advertise but a lot of damage was already done and I know of a few folks who left because they came here to enjoy pen making discussions NOT to buy things!   

The SOYP forum was once a place where members showed off their work which often started discussions about how the pen was made and quite often spawned related discussions which were generally very informative.  I can remember some threads where simply posting a photo of a pen invoked a dozen pages of good discussions.  Anymore the SOYP forum is used more for showcasing  new kits and hand made blanks and of course... where they can be purchased, than simply showing a nice pen with a few details on how it was made.

 I come here to see what others are making, engage in some discussions about the tools we use, how we use them and to share what I have learned over the years and could care less who is selling what kit and who is making the latest blanks but the vendors will convince you that members like me are in the minority and maybe they are correct since most of the members like me have already left!

 When a forum ceases to interest people it will slowly dwindle and when all the newbies have their fill of kits and blanks and find there is nothing else going on but buying more kits and blanks, they too will slowly lose interest and leave.

So there you have it............

Edit: I just read my own post and it sure seems that I am really down on vendors.  A good friend is one of the member/vendors here and I wish him all the best but that said, some of the vendors need to realize that just because their main reason for being here is to make money, many members main reason for being here isn't buying!


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## Displaced Canadian (Apr 24, 2013)

George does make a good point With the " When all the newbies have their fill of kits and blanks....." About 8 months ago I was sitting watching TV and I said to said to myself that I should go out to the shop and make a pen. And I realized that I was bored with the whole pen thing. I thought about the whole thing and realized that putting kits on blanks wasn't exciting anymore. I started making blanks and working without kits and discovered that what was exciting about making pens was the innovation and experimenting. You could blow up 3 or 4 blanks trying something and at the end of the day you smile and say," I'll have to try something different tomorrow." I don't make nearly as many but have a lot more fun with the ones I do. And when you make your own blanks the explosions don't cost as much. :biggrin:


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## Smitty37 (Apr 25, 2013)

Well, if I weren't a vendor I wouldn't be here - because I can't do much turning anymore because of personal medical reasons.

As far as the site being commercialized....it seems to me that there is far more discussion "commercial" discussion put forward by turners than vendors.  Vendors do most of our commercializing in ads that we pay for and others can visit or not visit at their pleasure. 

Also, one of the most active forums is the deals and trades - dozens of items changing hands every day much of it is selling I suspect there is more changing hands there than at most of the vendors sites.  I frequently go there myself.

On the other had there are hundreds of turners who are asking advice on how to price their product, market their product, select their venue, close sales, set up their business, handle tax issues and the list goes on. I have seen as many a 3 discussions going on at the same time discussing pricing.  I might be wrong about this but that often sounds more like someone trying to find a way to make money than someone wanting to quietly enjoy the hobby and enhance their skills.

In addition, to that - a lot of the very things that used to bring on good discussions about the hobby and how to do things are now in the library and a question that a couple of years back would have invoked a good discussion will now get in one of the first two or three responses a link to a library item - end of discussion except for the OP's "Thanks Folks".

I'm not sure any of the 8 or 9 people who contacted me and invited me to come to this forum are still here.  Some used to post fairly often and I haven't seen them for a long time.

What we are seeing will happen in any organization...we have 14500 members - I believe when I joined the number was around 10000 so even though there are some long time members leaving, new members are coming faster.  That will have an impact as every new member brings something to the table.

Many of the "old" members have changed - a couple of them who used to spend all their time doing and getting ready to do shows, no longer go to shows, some of them have become, or spend a lot more time being, vendors.  Some have taken their shoes off put their feet up and relaxed, turning a pen now and then.

The rules have also had an impact - more specifically the enforcement of the rules has changed.  "Heated" discussions get turned off much quicker - debates between members and moderators about the rules are almost never conducted in public now where in the past they sometimes were.  

Yes, a lot of names I used to see regularily are gone...but a lot of names I never saw until maybe 4 or 5 months ago are participating regularily.  I sort of think that's normal.

I'm reminded of my work years.  I was hired in 1960 and worked with a bunch of guys around the same age I was.  I retired the last day of 1991 and didn't even know where more than one or two of the people I worked with were or what they were doing.....Same here.


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## OOPS (Apr 25, 2013)

There are undoubtedly a number of reasons for people dropping into and out of a forum such as this. One reason that hasn't been discussed, and could be a reason for the feeling of commercialization, is that many equipment dealers are selling this hobby as a money-making enterprise. When you combine this sales pitch with the fact that so many have seen their incomes dwindle in the current economic climate, you have the makings for a lot of people who will enter this hobby more as a business venture, because so many are desparate to increase their incomes. I have often heard dealers say that pen turning is one hobby that pays for itself! I haven't actively attempted to sell pens, but I am A LONG WAY from break even, as I expect most of you are. 

I have been looking closely at some of the member-generated ads (as opposed to those who are well known vendors) and I find it sad to see a number of people who joined the IAP after me and are now posting ads such as "cleaning out the shop" "getting out of pen turning" etc. It is hard to believe that they have burned out on the hobby in two years or less, unless they were sold on the money-making aspect which just didn't pan out. If the economy were better, more pens would be sold, and those who were only marginally successful wouldn't be selling off their stock and equipment.


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## Alzey (Apr 25, 2013)

Let me add a perspective from a fairly new turner.

I never touched a lathe until late 2011.  I was looking for way to work with with wood often that did not involve make large pieces of furniture.  I started looking around at lathes and stumbled upon IAP. I trolled here for about 3 month before I ask SWMBO to let me try this.  Took a bit of convincing, but I finally made the purchase of a Delta Lathe. I have now turned over 200 pens. Sold a few, gave a few away and sent many to Freedom Pen Project.

My shop is not conducive to working in when it is below 40 or above 90 outside.  So I turn and work in spurts.  All my pen stuff is currently boxed up as I needed the room to build new cabinets and a new lathe bench in my shop.  Once that is complete, I will be back to tuning but not on the scale that I was before.  I have also experimented with bowls and grinders.

Before I was satisfied with just turning a wooden pen.  Now I need more.  The work in the segmenting section really has be excited to get my shop finished.  I also know that I need to upgrade some of my other tools and there are additional tools that I need to build or buy.

Even after all the pens, I still find it frustrating that my success rate on CA finish is somewhere below 70%. 

I have found that what I like best about turning is the machining process.  If my computer career had not taken off, I have found that I would have been happy being a machinist and tool maker.

Well, enough rambling from a noob.


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## Smitty37 (Apr 25, 2013)

One other thing has crossed my mind - It seems that about once a year since I have been here there's been a similar discussion about the "old stalwarts" leaving and how the forum is "just not the same" anymore.   People change hobbies for good reasons, bad reasons and no reason.

Looking at my own life.
I have collected stamps as a teenager.
I collected coins, bred standardbred horses, raised breeding holstine bulls, raised some exotic chickens, bowled, tried golf, did a lot of shooting, owned and showed an antique car, hunted, fished, took up boating, walked (hiked), built furniture, and turned pens.  I also dabbled in bridge until recently.

That's a lot of hobbies, and I know people who changed hobbies even more often than I did.

Next year we'll be having another conversation wondering where all the 'good old guys and gals have gone'....


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## Justturnin (Apr 25, 2013)

I stopped coming by a while back and have slowly started coming back on and trying to contribute to the forum.  I don't get time to make a lot of pens but when I do I get pretty excited about it.  Before I left I would make a pen, be excited, set up, snap some pics, write out a post and share it.  Then nothing.  No feedback, no opinions, no advise......nothing.  But, at the same time there was a slight clickish mentality where someone from one of the "clicks" could post a similar pen and get numerous posts leaving feedback and opinions.  That was a bit discouraging so I quit posting.  I still like to try and share what I know, even though it is limited, but I do not think I will be posting many pens because all I do is the mundane pen kits w/ nothing fancy, no mods but I like the pens I make and will continue to make them as I like, just may not share many.


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## TellicoTurning (Apr 25, 2013)

I joined in 2006 and have watched a lot of changes, we don't seem to have as much personality conflicts now as I've seen in the past and I think that some of those drove away some of the older members... and as has been pointed out, I think people change their interests... 

I don't do as many pens as I used to, I've found other things I prefer to turn and I can't/don't sell as many pens as I did once... plus the prices of pen kits has sky rocketed and on my fixed income, price plays a really big part in what I do.  I can turn a bowl for a lot less outlay expense than I can a pen.... my bowl wood is local harvest that only costs me a little sweat equity and maybe a little gas to go and pick it up.... 

I still come here to read the posts and enjoy the camaraderie of those posts... but that said, I only read a few of the threads... Casual Conversation, Other things we make, Marketing, and maybe a couple of others... rarely go into the classifieds and commercialize threads.

This is the only pen turning forum I frequent now and one other woodworking forum... I've effectively canceled all the others I used to go to....


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## BW Design Works (Apr 25, 2013)

*Things have changed*

I am still relatively new to IAP but have been absent for a bit. My work in Southern California was keeping me on the road more and more to where I finally said enough and moved my family up to Mill Creek Washington. One of the clients I took care of had offered me a job to where I could be home every night to be with my family and get back to doing things I love, one of them being making pens! When I came back here to the site I noticed that some of the names that were always posting great pens and advise were gone :frown:. 

It's good to see you posting again George and I hope you stick around and share some of your incite on things for all of us. You bring so much to the table that helps all of us work through problems from your nudging in the right direction to even making jigs for us ( I bought one of your die holders). 

I would always log onto the IAP like a kid on Christmas Day hoping to see something new that Justin, Seamus, Jonathon and many other talented turners here came up with. Then the discussion of how it was made and what tap and die set was needed or how to improve on the steps taken to create it would in sue. This always inspired me to always try new things and ways in making my pens. 

Anyway I seem to be long winded here but the point is I hope to see it continue as I had seen it when I joined a few years back. I will still be here looking at all of the great work, and also looking for new tips and tricks to elevate my skill.


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## Paul in OKC (Apr 25, 2013)

I have been a pen turner for near 15 years. Guess I should say I started that long ago. Don't think I have posted a pic of a pen in near 5 years or so, haven't turned one in 2+ years. Still hang out because it is fun to see what is going on, and contribute once in a while. But life, kids, job changes, job changes back, and the like, my interest in getting out to the garage has dwindled. Not gone, just done to where it tends to be more of a thought to get out there than actually getting there these days =8^). I have collected stuff and thoughts to make some custom pens, and will some day. Some times it has been all I can do to not just sell out and go on to something else, but making things for the hobby is more fun than the pens at times, so...........anyhoo, my thoughts.


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## Smitty37 (Apr 25, 2013)

Justturnin said:


> I stopped coming by a while back and have slowly started coming back on and trying to contribute to the forum.  I don't get time to make a lot of pens but when I do I get pretty excited about it.  Before I left I would make a pen, be excited, set up, snap some pics, write out a post and share it.  Then nothing.  No feedback, no opinions, no advise......nothing.  But, at the same time there was a slight clickish mentality where someone from one of the "clicks" could post a similar pen and get numerous posts leaving feedback and opinions.  That was a bit discouraging so I quit posting.  I still like to try and share what I know, even though it is limited, but I do not think I will be posting many pens because all I do is the mundane pen kits w/ nothing fancy, no mods but I like the pens I make and will continue to make them as I like, just may not share many.


 Don't get discouraged Chris...Just my personal approach, I seldom look at SYOP unless something really catches my eye. When I do look, I seldom comment (although I will fairly often click on like) because I comment only when I am really impressed and given the pens I have in my collection that isn't too often.  I don't consider myself enough of an expert to offer advice on how to turn and in selection of blanks beauty is in the eye of the beholder and I see any number of pens raved over that I don't even like but I'm never gonna tell anyone that I don't like what they worked hard to produce.


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## Joe S. (Apr 25, 2013)

I've thought this for a while, but never said it. So here it goes:
These "what happened to the good old days" are really depressing to a newer member like me. This site may have been a penturners utopia before, but there are still people using this site for all of the great info it has, and its a great group of people to talk to, too. It's because I never experienced what it was like before, but I have _never_ thought of the IAP as being "commercialized".
Just an opinion.


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## LL Woodworks (Apr 25, 2013)

Justturnin said:


> I stopped coming by a while back and have slowly started coming back on and trying to contribute to the forum.  I don't get time to make a lot of pens but when I do I get pretty excited about it.  Before I left I would make a pen, be excited, set up, snap some pics, write out a post and share it.  Then nothing.  No feedback, no opinions, no advise......nothing.  But, at the same time there was a slight clickish mentality where someone from one of the "clicks" could post a similar pen and get numerous posts leaving feedback and opinions.  That was a bit discouraging so I quit posting.  I still like to try and share what I know, even though it is limited, but I do not think I will be posting many pens because all I do is the mundane pen kits w/ nothing fancy, no mods but I like the pens I make and will continue to make them as I like, just may not share many.



Well said Chris - Most here will deny any "clicks" or "good ole boys" but they do exist within IAP and are alive and well, it just isn't recognized or admitted by them that are.  I realize every pen posted cannot be commented on, we simply do not have the time to do so, but the "clicks" and "good ole boys" always get the consistent comments, regardless of the quality or aesthetics.

 This  is exactly why I stopped posting as well, although I do follow various forums and make occasional comments, I try to solicit and contribute help through PMs.  There is a ton of valuable info here with extremely talented and  knowledgeable turners, most of who are willing to help.  IAP has contributed to the  improvement of my pen making skills which includes, CA finish, turning between centers, advanced and complex segmenting and even kitless FP construction - all in less than two years; and that is exactly why I joined IAP.  Thanks for the help everyone.


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## mredburn (Apr 25, 2013)

I have not known some or barely knew at all some of the members Roy mentions.  Its my understanding That Doc is very busy working. I know that in all endeavors that there is a rate of attrition. Jobs, Health, Death, Divorce. Money,Boredom. They can all take their toll on people causing them to move on or fade away. I feel that right now there is a tremendous talent still  on the forum. Old and new. We continue to  have new members show up and their new designs with old materials or techniques still produces outstanding new work. It may be that we the older members just don't feel the connection we once had before time and tribulation thinned the ranks of our friends.  As in any social group it can be harder to develop new friends to replace those that have moved on.
 Most of the "good ole boys" and clicks are groups that formed because they started commenting on each others work and in return had their work commented on.  They formed bonds of friendship and vocally support each other.  I feel the"like" button has had a profound impact on that aspect of the Forums. Yes we no longer have a "ditto"  or +1 responses  but the like feature does not put your pen/ thread back on top, only a comment left in the thread will. Those with the most comments keep to the top and get more reviews. Hence more comments etc. The other threads with few comments  sink to the back pages quickly.  That can leave you wondering why no one likes you or your pen.  My advice suck it up.  I have posted pens that have had only 7 or 8 comments but they were by my peers that I respect not just "attaboy" posts and they went to the back quickly. Those replies mean something more than GJGP regardless of the lack of overall response.  Even your top pen makers have had pens that met a deafening silence.
  We have had members that seemed to delight in making inflammatory comments just to cause problems. They were the ones that cried "Im over moderated" on several occasion. Most have faded away.

Most of us do not want to be Bombarded with ads. But we do want to be able to have the ability to explore new vendors and products both to increase our base of suppliers for the best prices and for new products to keep this activity fresh.  A lot of the newer turners have not yet found all the vendors and products we take for granted. That is just one of the advantages this forum offers. I do not see the down side to members developing small businesses to take advantage of that as long as its not constantly shove down your throat.


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## skiprat (Apr 25, 2013)

I returned to IAP because I love the damned place!!!:biggrin:
The 'Ignore' function is a wonderful tool and saves me getting involved in many disputes and probably has saved me from getting banned for voicing my opinions.:biggrin:
But I would like to see it even more refined. Not just to ignore names but phrases too. I would also like to be able to put my self on others ignore lists too.


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## SteveJ (Apr 25, 2013)

skiprat said:


> The 'Ignore' function is a wonderful tool



What?? There is an ignore button?  Now I have to search on where to find it.  A few times it would have been handy.  Is there also a "Always Notify Me" button?  That would be handy as well!


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## sbwertz (Apr 26, 2013)

Because of some health problems, I haven't done much turning for a year.  It is complicated by the fact that I share the shop with my husband who is making me new kitchen cabinets.  This has severely restricted my working space around my lathes.  I can't turn at all when he is applying finish (unless I want pebble textured cabinets LOL).  The kitchen project is almost done, and I am soon going to have my workspace back.  I'm itching to try some new kits I bought.  I turn more than pens, as well.  But the pens are really my first love.  I love taking a gnarly piece of wood and making something beautiful from it.  

Sharon


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## Timebandit (Apr 29, 2013)

Hey Roy, and everyone else. I didnt leave due to anyone or anything here, and in fact i never really left, just in the wings hiding, ive just been through many trials and tribulations, ups and downs, great times and horrible times over the last year and just lost some of my gusto and gumption. Life has been difficult and i just lost my drive to do anything or even comment on anything. I got divorced, had to change jobs, lost my house (almost to foreclosure) am moving at the end of May, not sure where yet:frown:, had a horrible case of poison ivy/oak, got bitten by a pitbull which messed up my nice tattoo, one of my aunts has breast cancer, and someone i care about very much, may go to prison(wrong place, wrong time:frown I still love turning, but my shop is half packed for the move and i just dont have the time to get out there right now. I had some big things planned for the Pen World contest and then all of this started and i just lost it and couldnt get back to it. Ive got so many huge things planned but no time to do it. Might sound big headed, but i think i would have given the Gisi's a run for their money in the contest. I just have confidence in my work. Dont care if anyone else does, i do. I really miss making pens:frown: Thought about selling everything, but something inside tells me not to. I still visit almost everyday and go through the new posts, just dont say much. There are some great pens being shown, congrats Twissy on the front page!! and im sorry i havent been of any encouragement. I will try to post more and participate again, just realize that im still dealing with a lot right now, so if im not around much, or dont post much, its not because of anyone here. I love this place and everyone has been a great encouragement to me. Everything i learned came from the great people of this site. My second family. Im always willing to answer questions, but im not sure if i even remember how to make a pen anymore:frown: its been 6 months or more:frown: feels like forever.

As for my dear friend Doc, hes is an extremely busy, hard working, devoted doctor and im sure he just hasnt had the time to do anything either. Im sure we will here from him before to long.

Justin


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## BW Design Works (Apr 29, 2013)

*Good to see ya back Justin*



Timebandit said:


> Hey Roy, and everyone else. I didnt leave due to anyone or anything here, and in fact i never really left, just in the wings hiding, ive just been through many trials and tribulations, ups and downs, great times and horrible times over the last year and just lost some of my gusto and gumption. Life has been difficult and i just lost my drive to do anything or even comment on anything. I got divorced, had to change jobs, lost my house (almost to foreclosure) am moving at the end of May, not sure where yet:frown:, had a horrible case of poison ivy/oak, got bitten by a pitbull which messed up my nice tattoo, one of my aunts has breast cancer, and someone i care about very much, may go to prison(wrong place, wrong time:frown I still love turning, but my shop is half packed for the move and i just dont have the time to get out there right now. I had some big things planned for the Pen World contest and then all of this started and i just lost it and couldnt get back to it. Ive got so many huge things planned but no time to do it. Might sound big headed, but i think i would have given the Gisi's a run for their money in the contest. I just have confidence in my work. Dont care if anyone else does, i do. I really miss making pens:frown: Thought about selling everything, but something inside tells me not to. I still visit almost everyday and go through the new posts, just dont say much. There are some great pens being shown, congrats Twissy on the front page!! and im sorry i havent been of any encouragement. I will try to post more and participate again, just realize that im still dealing with a lot right now, so if im not around much, or dont post much, its not because of anyone here. I love this place and everyone has been a great encouragement to me. Everything i learned came from the great people of this site. My second family. Im always willing to answer questions, but im not sure if i even remember how to make a pen anymore:frown: its been 6 months or more:frown: feels like forever.
> 
> As for my dear friend Doc, hes is an extremely busy, hard working, devoted doctor and im sure he just hasnt had the time to do anything either. Im sure we will here from him before to long.
> 
> Justin


 

Hey Justin, sorry to hear all the bad things going on right now with ya. I just went through a move so I know about packing up the shop :frown:. I hope things turn around for ya and you can get back to some good times in the shop where ever that may be. I always liked what you were posting up and started buying up the propper taps and dies to try my own. Hopefully that will be very soon :biggrin:. Hope to see ya more on the site.


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## thewishman (Apr 29, 2013)

skiprat said:


> I returned to IAP because I love the damned place!!!:biggrin:
> The 'Ignore' function is a wonderful tool and saves me getting involved in many disputes and probably has saved me from getting banned for voicing my opinions.:biggrin:
> But I would like to see it even more refined. Not just to ignore names but phrases too. I would also like to be able to put my self on others ignore lists too.




I love this place, too! The ignore button kept me from leaving about 18 months ago. The idea of a "Hide me from _____" button sounds interesting...


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## PenMan1 (Apr 29, 2013)

Just a little different take, (maybe, maybe not).  When the yahoo penturners group began, the site grew beyond a "manageable" group . YPG, realized that many, if not MOST of the seasoned membership grew weary of constantly answering the same redundant questions. In that vein, they created the PMG. The guild was created as a device for advanced pen makers to communicate WITHOUT "being bothered" with newbie question, but instead a place where "advanced makers" could communicate without giving away "secret processes".

In today's world, the Yahoo Penturners Group, is FAR MORE ACTIVE than the PMG. As a participating member of YPT, I feel an obligation to help new makers with "fundamental" question. I DO sometimes look at articles and "how to's" at PMG. I may be wrong, but I haven't seen ANYTHING new or exciting ADDED to PMG in some time. In fact, IMHO. the PMG site has become stoic and irrelevant to today's pen maker.

As I feel it "is my duty", I do visit the Yahoo group and contribute. I am always amazed that Don Ward is there regularly.

The IAP, by ANY MEASURE, has been far more successful than either YPG or PMG.
By the very nature of "the way things are", the IAP has basically merged into 3 or 4 categories. IMHO, these groups have morphed into "social outreach", "new pen makers", "vendors" and "veteran- or commercial makers".

As membership in IAP has grown in leaps and bounds (as opposed to YPG or PMG), interest has fallen in activity in "registered users" has fallen almost as much as membership has grown. Perhaps it is time for IAP to deversify in a manner similar to PMG? 

PERHAPS, NOT. Today, people who "do what I do" are a free phone call away...this WAS NOT the case just a few years ago. Today, when I'm having an "issue", I make a cell phone call to a friend (many who WERE virtual friends, but now "3D" friends " doing what I do, in a different market) and discuss our markets, products , and private "group buys).

Respectfully submitted.


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## Timebandit (May 1, 2013)

BW Design Works said:


> Timebandit said:
> 
> 
> > Hey Roy, and everyone else. I didnt leave due to anyone or anything here, and in fact i never really left, just in the wings hiding, ive just been through many trials and tribulations, ups and downs, great times and horrible times over the last year and just lost some of my gusto and gumption. Life has been difficult and i just lost my drive to do anything or even comment on anything. I got divorced, had to change jobs, lost my house (almost to foreclosure) am moving at the end of May, not sure where yet:frown:, had a horrible case of poison ivy/oak, got bitten by a pitbull which messed up my nice tattoo, one of my aunts has breast cancer, and someone i care about very much, may go to prison(wrong place, wrong time:frown I still love turning, but my shop is half packed for the move and i just dont have the time to get out there right now. I had some big things planned for the Pen World contest and then all of this started and i just lost it and couldnt get back to it. Ive got so many huge things planned but no time to do it. Might sound big headed, but i think i would have given the Gisi's a run for their money in the contest. I just have confidence in my work. Dont care if anyone else does, i do. I really miss making pens:frown: Thought about selling everything, but something inside tells me not to. I still visit almost everyday and go through the new posts, just dont say much. There are some great pens being shown, congrats Twissy on the front page!! and im sorry i havent been of any encouragement. I will try to post more and participate again, just realize that im still dealing with a lot right now, so if im not around much, or dont post much, its not because of anyone here. I love this place and everyone has been a great encouragement to me. Everything i learned came from the great people of this site. My second family. Im always willing to answer questions, but im not sure if i even remember how to make a pen anymore:frown: its been 6 months or more:frown: feels like forever.
> ...



Thanks Byron, hopefully im able to get a place where i can even set up shop. Not sure if it will be an apartment, duplex, house?? I really need a garage and a back yard for my two large dogs. Just moving the shop alone is gong to be a great task, with a 600 pound metal lathe and all


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## Gilrock (May 2, 2013)

I don't know where all the flowers have gone...but I can tell you where one weed has gone. I don't sell pens so it's hard to just keep making them with no real purpose. What I do make money at on the side is writing software and I took on two significant software side jobs in the past six months. One of them involves writing a GUI application to control the focuser motors, mirror covers, dome shutter, temperature sensors, and other items on a 1.6 meter telescope targeted to be installed in Chile. Below is a couple pics of the scope at the site where it was constructed and where I can test my code. After it's working it will be taken apart and shipped to Chile I believe. They are making 3 of these so that's why the destination is a guess...I know one of the 3 will go there. It will be a network of 3 telescopes that collaborate.

The other thing I got into was instead of making a pen I decided to make a "pin". So even when I'm not making pens sawdust is still hitting the floor. This is not completed yet and I was trying to wait till I was completely done before showing it off but its hard to keep a secret. This is a virtual pinball machine. I got the ideas from other guys who have done similar machines from the arcade emulation websites. Basically the playfield on mine is a 40" Samsung LED TV and the backglass is done by a 28" Viewsonic monitor. I have an orange LED DMD display that will be installed between the speakers on the back panel. Inside an open frame PC drives it all and there is a car stereo amplifier. I've got most of the exterior finished but there are a lot of extras to install and wiring cleanup to do inside. The final cabinet will have Siemens contactors that provide force feedback and that knock sound when flippers or bumpers are activated. There are 5 leds that will flash various colors in the back. And there will be vibration and shaker motors inside. All the output is driven by the original ROM code that was inside the original pinball machines. I've only got about 15 tables running right now but there are over 200 tables that can be installed and emulated.

For me the challenge of building it is almost more fun that playing it. Below are just a few pics. The first is my design in Google SketchUp. Then a couple pics that show initial cabinet construction. The playfield monitor is mounted to a wooden carriage that slide on a rail using garage door wheels. The inside shot was just a test to see everything work. I hope to better organize it later. I designed the artwork and found someone that could print it out. The last photo shows about everything I've done except that I've installed the back cabinet artwork since that photo.

Thanks,
Gil


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## Haynie (May 2, 2013)

Justturnin said:


> But, at the same time there was a slight clickish mentality where someone from one of the "clicks" could post a similar pen and get numerous posts leaving feedback and opinions.



I think this was a problem for a while.  I have not seen it lately.  What you call cliques I usually thought of as Churches.  In fact I would see that pastor ______ posted a pen and their followers rained praises, while ignoring other pens that IMO were as good if not better, just not posted by the right person.  It has been nice not having this happen as much.

I have not posted a pic here because I have not made a pen that met my standards but I have seen many get discouraged by the lack of notice.


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## Smitty37 (May 2, 2013)

Haynie said:


> Justturnin said:
> 
> 
> > But, at the same time there was a slight clickish mentality where someone from one of the "clicks" could post a similar pen and get numerous posts leaving feedback and opinions.
> ...


I sort of think that is normal in any large group.  There are 14500 or so members 14000 of which I don't know at all.  There are also hundreds of posts every day and I can't take the time to view all of them.

That being the case, I am more likely to look at posts or threads where I feel like I know the poster.  That holds true with SYOP as well as other forums.  I am not snubbing people I don't know so much as just not looking at as many of their contributions.


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## ttpenman (May 2, 2013)

I have read this forum every day for years along with the Yahoo pen group.  Don't post very often as I usually don't have much to add.  I have been making pens since 1996 and in the first years, custom wood pens were somewhat unique, at least in my market.  So I made, and sold a lot of pens, all wood as I worker for and sold through, a specialty hardwood mill.  I always tried to use better than the cheap kits and I think I made a lot of decent pens.  Not many that were real great (but a few) but all were well made and worked well.  Many hundreds were made back then.  Then the pen making hobby went crazy.  Everybody and their brother were making pens.  Kits became much more widely available, I even have seem kits in larger hardware stores.  Pen sales dropped off and for me, never recovered.  Even now, I have a full time storefront location for my laser business and I sell a selection of gift items.  I have a couple dozen very nice wood and acrylic pens on display, all in the $40-50 price range.  In the last year, I've only sold 2 or 3.  Lots of people looking but no buyers.  The economy up here in the boonies has hit hard with no signs of improvement in the near future.

I enjoy making pens but I can only give away so many.  I make them mostly to sell and with sales so slow I have a hard time getting in the shop to make more.  Doesn't help that I'm getting older and standing at the lathe is hard on my body.

Sorry for the rant.

Jeff in northern Wisconsin


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## MikeL (May 2, 2013)

Interesting conversation, I am not a seasoned pen turner but I am a fairly seasoned citizen.  No matter what the occupation or club or forum, it seems the old guys wonder about the good-ole days and the young guys wonder what the old guys are talking about.  I am an old guy at work within a couple of years of retirement.  I’ve observed these dynamics for quite a while.  It’s kind of like being in a family where my kids listen to their grandparents reminisce over the good ole days and my kids are thinking this is the good ole days.  What I have seen so far in my short time as an IAP member is family type dynamics.  I think that is a good thing.  As mentioned, I am close to retirement and think I have found a new hobby that I want to improve upon.  I have learned much from IAP.  I will continue to read what I am interested in and ignore what I feel is not value added (haven’t seen much of that yet) all for my desires to become better and learn and interact.  I also expect this new passion will be my excuse not to have to do yard work because there is a new method I just learned on IAP and I have to try it!   It appears the seasoned pen turners that used to be more active are still hanging around observing and providing calculated/reflective input when they feel necessary, just like my kids grandparents.   I appreciate IAP and its members.    Just one more opinion.


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## dogcatcher (May 2, 2013)

Maybe they enjoy turning a lot more than typing???


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