# Anybody get the email from DAYACOM?



## jcollazo (Dec 14, 2007)

It looks like they're going direct!
http://www.dayacom.com.tw

Dayacom is Crafts Supplies supplier. They're even going to be putting an ad in the AAW Journal.

It looks like the minimums for everything is 500 pieces.

Let the comments begin.


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## Tuba707 (Dec 14, 2007)

This could be good news.... Anyone up for a big group buy? =)


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## Geo in Winnipeg (Dec 14, 2007)

Sounds interesting. I'd be interested.


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## TowMater (Dec 14, 2007)

Any idea on the pricing structure? I'd sure be interested in participating in a group buy in Jan/Feb.


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## PenWorks (Dec 14, 2007)

How cool is that. I did not see any prices on the web site or regards to minimum orders.
So why are these companies dumping the distribution chain?
They have some nice new styles as well.


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## ed4copies (Dec 14, 2007)

500 kits should not be a problem.  No rush, but let's look this over carefully.  Their products have always been good quality.


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## jcollazo (Dec 14, 2007)

i sent an email to them requesting prices for the kits and platings. I'll let ya'll know what's happening. 

BTW, moq=minimum order quantity


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## IPD_Mrs (Dec 14, 2007)

It is going to depend on overall savings.  I am trying to get a contact now for a price quote on a couple of high end kits and also see if the box can be put in one of our containers from our hardware manufacturers.  Would be a couple months down the road.  If savings is minimal then I say continue with CSUSA as their customer service is top notch.  But if we are talking about a 75% savings then this could be good.  The bigger picture problem is the dollar is sliding on the global market, thus the constant price increases from overseas.  You also have to consider the price of metals (raw steel, brass, copper, aluminum) have been climbing on the global market due to China buying a good chunk of the global supply.


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## Rifleman1776 (Dec 14, 2007)

Depending on pricing, this could be an opportunity for others to get into the pen kit supply business.


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## ashaw (Dec 14, 2007)

I e-mailed them for price I need 1,000 statemans for next year.  I will see what the Pricing will be.  I know how our suppliers treat us.  Will we have the same level of service from the manufactor? Some new pens there not available to us.  So want happens to our suppliers when the manufactors begin selling direct?  Daycom also supplies Bereahardwood and PSI.


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## SuperDave (Dec 14, 2007)

I assume they will not do a "mix-n-match" like CSUSA, but you never know without asking.

I could see keeping a "rolling" inventory request, where we input into an on-line database, how much we want of a given product and when the database reaches the minimum, the order is ready to be placed... members are e-mailed to pay into the appropriate account... when everyone has paid, the order is placed.

The database would need to allow people to edit/cancel their request(s) and generate real-time totals so members can monitor the progress and decide if they want to remain on the list. If the savings are worth the effort, it could have some possibilities. 

Any of you database programmer types willing to work on an open source project (assuming buying direct as a group gains any traction?) I can assist in the design and work with the supplier. Who knows, this might even evolve into a Group Buy management tool for all group purchases.

Just thinking out loud...

Dave


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## GaryMGg (Dec 14, 2007)

To me, it fits with Ed's question about blanks growing on trees yesterday http://www.penturners.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=30945.
I didn't post a reply 'cause I thought it was too obvious but my answer was going to be that the 'net
makes it easier because it puts buyers and sellers in touch with one another no matter where they're physically located. The supply chain is different today. The business model has changed.
This is partly why American manufacturers need to get in the game -- Americans aren't the only buyers in the market.


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## Rudy Vey (Dec 14, 2007)

Thats a good opportunity for us!! Competition is always good and should give us better pricing. Never liked that we were depending on one sole supplier for certain kits. I think that many of the pen kits are way overpriced anyways. Look forward to see the first group buy, they have some nice new pens on their site (like the variation of the Sierra, the elegant Beauty).


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## OKLAHOMAN (Dec 14, 2007)

Some nice looking High-end pens, sure would be intrested in a large group buy.


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## jcollazo (Dec 14, 2007)

I just wanted to add that originally I thought the information was specifically for me. The link was in a reply to an inquiry I made about a month ago. When I saw that they were putting an ad in the AAW Journal I felt the cat was out of the bag and ready for human consumption (you figure it out).

Of course, the killer question is going to be the shipping costs.


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## jcollazo (Dec 14, 2007)

I just read the ad going into the Journal. The only interesting thing about it is the "For wholesalers only" verbage. I could run this as a group buy through Turncrafts. I get some stock, you get the group buy prices.

We'll see.....


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## IPD_Mrs (Dec 14, 2007)

Actually shipping is no big deal if you bring in a large order via container.  But you are talking about a major order ($20K minimum and most likely $40-$50K)If your shipping is $2500 for the container, and you have 75000 items in the container, then your shipping cost per item is .033.  Even better is if you can share a container with another local importer!


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## CrazyBear (Dec 14, 2007)

obviously it would help enormously if they let us see the prices


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## pianomanpj (Dec 14, 2007)

I found some prices (at least for now) on the SEDONA Type Fountain/Rollerball pen (131-6039). I have no idea if they are accurate or not. All prices are per and in US dollars. They are listed below. We could have something here!!
Chrome Rollerball           $4.25
Chrome Fountain Pen         $4.50
24K Rollerball              $4.35
24K Fountain Pen            $4.65
Black Titanium Rollerball   $5.00
Black Titanium Fountain Pen $5.25


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## pianomanpj (Dec 14, 2007)

Found this one also - Elegant Americana Ballpoint (131-6044)
Chrome $1.80
24K $1.90

There may be more prices hiding in there somewhere![8D]


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## pianomanpj (Dec 14, 2007)

Okay, enough from me already! [:I] If you look at a lot of their medium to lower-end models it will list platings and prices. Maybe someone would like to compile all the ones that are on this site? :::hint, hint:::[]


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## jcollazo (Dec 14, 2007)

I start compiling


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## vick (Dec 14, 2007)

Anyone notice they also list gold nibs
http://www.dayacom.com.tw/product_02.php?product_id=472&class_item_id=6


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## wood-of-1kind (Dec 14, 2007)

> _Originally posted by pianomanpj_
> 
> I found some prices (at least for now) on the SEDONA Type Fountain/Rollerball pen (131-6039). I have no idea if they are accurate or not. All prices are per and in US dollars. They are listed below. We could have something here!!
> Chrome Rollerball           $4.25Chrome Fountain Pen         $4.50
> ...



Food for thought. Why is the price variance so reasonable on the two types of plating? If titanium is so much more superior than gold, why is there such a small price gap from DAYCOM? I do not see this analogy with CSUSA nor BB's pricing. Has the wool been pulled over the penmakers' eyes long enough as I've tried to mount my arguement for so long?

Without further highjacking this thread, I invite a discussion based on "reason" from any and all members. Spit in my face off-line if you can muster up an arguement. "I won't take this supplier cr*p any more"[8]

-Peter-


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## rickstef (Dec 14, 2007)

I really like their Sierra "clone" and the Cloisonne Pens, no bushing to be found(just in case those are needed)

Rick


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## Ligget (Dec 14, 2007)

WOW! This is going to be very sore on our resellers![:0]


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## Daniel (Dec 14, 2007)

Dave,
If you come up with a program that can run a bulk buy. Let me know I will buy a copy to baby set my niece and nephew.
seriously I would try something like this on something limited until the bugs get worked out.
The way I picture this would be extremely confusing. Example:
I want to order 5 different pen kits. Four of them are popular so they reach there limit and are ordered at various but acceptable time limits. but Item 5 is not so popular and may be weeks or even months in reaching a limit. I will have to keep my funds available for this period of time. With my experience with the confusion that is involved in normal group buys. this could get truly unimaginable.



> _Originally posted by SuperDave_
> 
> I could see keeping a "rolling" inventory request, where we input into an on-line database, how much we want of a given product and when the database reaches the minimum, the order is ready to be placed... members are e-mailed to pay into the appropriate account... when everyone has paid, the order is placed.
> 
> ...


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## jcollazo (Dec 14, 2007)

It looks like only about a quarter of their pen kits currently have pricing. As I mentioned earlier, I do have an email to dayacom requesting the full price list, shipping info ( I do have a shipping company in China that I've worked with before) and if we can mix and match the kits.

This is the pricing so far (sorry for things not lining up):

Part Number	Description	Finish	Price
131-6043/CR	PK Purse mini Purse Pen	Chrome	$2.50
131-6043/24K	PK Purse mini Purse Pen	24K Gold	$2.55
131-6040/CR/R	Churchill RB	Chrome	$3.95
131-6040/CR/F	Churchill FP	Chrome	$4.25
131-6040/24K/R	Churchill RB	24K Gold	$4.05
131-6040/24K/F	Churchill FP	24K Gold	$4.15
131-6040/BlkTi/R	Churchill RB	Black Ti	$4.50
131-6040/BlkTi/F	Churchill FP	Black Ti	$4.60
131-6051	Teacher's Pen	24K	$1.80
131-6048/CR	2-Way & Combo Pen	Chrome	$2.45
131-6048/24K	2-Way & Combo Pen	24K Gold	$2.60
131-6039/CR/R	Sedona RB	Chrome	$4.25
131-6039/CR/F	Sedona FP	Chrome	$4.50
131-6039/24K/R	Sedona RB	24K Gold	$4.35
131-6039/24K/F	Sedona FP	24K Gold	$4.65
131-6039/BT/R	Sedona RB	Black Ti	$5.00
131-6039/BT/F	Sedona FP	Black Ti	$5.25
131-6044/CR	Elegant Americana BP	Chrome	$1.80
131-6044/24K	Elegant Americana BP	24K Gold	$1.90
131-6047/CR	PK-Long Pen	Chrome	$1.30
131-6047/24K	PK-Long Pen	24K Gold	$1.35
131-6046/CR	Convertible Pen/Pencil	Chrome	$3.50
131-6046/24K	Convertible Pen/Pencil	24K Gold	$3.60
131-6045/CR	7mm Streamline BP	Chrome	$1.30
131-6045/24K	7mm Streamline BP	24K Gold	$1.35
131-6042/CR/R	Cigar Americana Ink Ball	Chrome	$3.00
131-6042/CR/F	Cigar Americana FP	Chrome	$3.60
131-6042/24K/R	Cigar Americana Ink Ball	24K Gold	$3.25
131-6042/24K/F	Cigar Americana FP	24K Gold	$3.70
131-6042/BT/R	Cigar Americana Ink Ball	Black Ti	$3.80
131-6042/BT/F	Cigar Americana FP	Black Ti	$4.40
131-6041/CR/R	Flat Top Americana RB	Chrome	$2.70
131-6041/CR/F	Flat Top Americana FP	Chrome	$2.90
131-6041/24K/R	Flat Top Americana RB	24K Gold	$2.70
131-6041/24K/F	Flat Top Americana FP	24K Gold	$2.90
131-6041/BT/R	Flat Top Americana RB	Black Ti	$2.85
131-6041/BT/F	Flat Top Americana FP	Black Ti	$3.10
131-6038/CR	Sierra BP	Chrome	$2.70
131-6038/24K	Sierra BP	24K Gold	$2.80
131-6038/BT	Sierra BP	Black Ti	$3.25


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## rlharding (Dec 14, 2007)

If they can make a profit at these prices I wonder what CSUSA has been paying for large orders, assuming there must be discounts the more one orders.

I think this is a good thing even if 'we' don't do bulk orders with them because others will get in the business and we should see prices being reduced, by the looks of it, drastically.

I saw a kit the other day for over $100.


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## PenTurnerJohn (Dec 14, 2007)

Joe,

If the quality is good I would be interested in joining the Group Buy.


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## jcollazo (Dec 14, 2007)

> _Originally posted by PenTurnerJohn_
> 
> Joe,
> If the quality is good I would be interested in joining the Group Buy.



OK! Let's wait till we get more info. The one thing that this company has going for it is that the basic quality is a known factor. We've used most of these kits for years and know what to expect.


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## Monty (Dec 14, 2007)

It will be interesting to see what their shipping charge is.


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## gerryr (Dec 14, 2007)

> _Originally posted by rlharding_
> 
> 
> I saw a kit the other day for over $100.



Are you talking about the Limited Edition Statesman from CS?

If not, where and what supplier?


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## maxwell_smart007 (Dec 14, 2007)

Given the substantial savings on some of those kits, the shipping charge should not be a huge factor - provided it's reasonable...


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## Jim in Oakville (Dec 14, 2007)

Group Buy[:0][:0][:0], I'm in!![][][]


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## ed4copies (Dec 14, 2007)

Realize that the Canadians add a new dimension to your shipping horrors, which will get worse as you do further investigation.  (Just a warning).


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## jcollazo (Dec 14, 2007)

> _Originally posted by ed4copies_
> 
> Realize that the Canadians add a new dimension to your shipping horrors, which will get worse as you do further investigation.  (Just a warning).



Since I've been using Endicia for my shipping needs, international shipping is no longer a nightmare. I just fill in the address and what I'm shipping and Endicia generates the label, postage and customs form on one label in about 5 seconds.


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## SuperDave (Dec 14, 2007)

> _Originally posted by Daniel_
> 
> Dave,
> ...I would try something like this on something limited until the bugs get worked out.
> ...



Obviously the design process needs to address the most critical components of the program. No program will be able to offer all things to all people. Unpopular kits would not fit this program and would, in most cases, be better served if purchased through traditional channels. This program is best served with the more popular items, or new item launches where inventory levels normally ramp up in a reasonable time frame.

The ability to change your orders in real-time on-line and to check the rolling inventory, allows you to maintain your commitment only as long as it meets your current circumstances. If I were in a pinch for specific kits and could not afford to wait, I would buy from traditional sources. 

If I could not reserve the funds for buying the most popular kits (or new kits) at a deep discount, then I should not place the order. Bottom line is, I would have spent more money through traditional channels, so if I have the funds to buy the kits and I am not under time constraints, I order, wait and save. 

We could also do an escrow account where funds are pre-paid and held pending order processing. The escrow account would secure the funds and return them if the orders were canceled.

In any event, a lot has to happen before any of us venture down this road. Any suggestions or recommendations need to be reserved for if and when we find out all the salient facts necessary to facilitate direct purchasing as a group, such as cost justification.

Let's see what happens over the next few weeks... who knows, we might see some significant price reductions in the traditional channels once they see their market share possibly threatened.


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## wood-of-1kind (Dec 14, 2007)

> _Originally posted by ed4copies_
> 
> Realize that the Canadians add a new dimension to your shipping horrors, which will get worse as you do further investigation.  (Just a warning).



Ed (and other skeptics) this is simply not correct. George (TXDURANGO) proved this with a recent shipment that he made to me from Texas. A &lt;2 lb. package shipped from Texas to Toronto, Canada was a mere $6.67 (first class mail). I just want to emphasize that this fallacy, that it's a 'nightmare'to ship to Canada just isn't correct. Once again, as  Canucks, we're appreciative whenever we're included with the US driven GROUP BUYS.  No greater effort to make a shipment to Canada as opposed to shipping to California.

-Peter-


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## johncrane (Dec 14, 2007)

I will keeping a eye on this one and if there is a 'group buy' count me in,
lam also wondering why' the Asian pen Manufacturers are going down this path.[^]


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## Daniel (Dec 14, 2007)

First I want to agree with Peter that shipping to Canada and many other foreign contries is not a big deal. It amounts to some extra paper work more than anything.
saying that I am interested in what Endicia is as 5 seconds is much faster than I can do that paper work.

Since I've been using Endicia for my shipping needs, international shipping is no longer a nightmare. I just fill in the address and what I'm shipping and Endicia generates the label, postage and customs form on one label in about 5 seconds.
[/quote]


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## MesquiteMan (Dec 14, 2007)

I really do not understand why people say that international shipping is a pain.  I do it all the time with my cactus blanks and it is BARELY any more work than US.  Now of course I am using Paypal almost exclusively and am doing USPS Priority Mail.  It is just a matter of choosing what method you want to ship with and then filling in what is in your package.  The insert the self adhesive Click-n-ship compatible label and print away.  Now stick the label on the package and drop it in your mail box or a postal box.  Nothing more to it at all.


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## Daniel (Dec 14, 2007)

Here are my thoughts on it.
 there have been questions asked as to just where what kits come from for a long time. DAYCOM's add strikes more as an effort to answer that than anything. they seem to be focused on quality and I suspect want there name associated to that quality. I also wonder if this is an attempt to make sure there kits are not associated with that other company.

as for the other company, they seem to be focused on low cost to attract demand for there products. the fall of the U.S. Dollar would make keeping there product low cost more challenging.
trying to establish a more direct to the consumer method of moving the items would both keep the prices low and possibly increase the demand. I do not see they are getting great attention from the major suppliers here in the U.S. so it may also simply be an attempt to get around that.

Also DAYCOM's add is coming on the heels of Rehzings attemtpts to promote themselves. may be something in that but not to sure.
just some thoughts



> _Originally posted by johncrane_
> 
> 
> l am also wondering why' the Asian pen Manufacturers are going down this path.[^]


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## DCBluesman (Dec 14, 2007)

The international shipping question is being incorrectly addressed.  Yes, there are ways to make it relatively painless to ship to Canada, BUT if you are selling to Canada, you have a lot more responsibilities than you might imagine.  And if you are taking someone from Canada's money and sending them products, you are selling to them.  You have exporter requirements.  You have customs requirements.  You have tax authority requirements.  Now I'm not the Postal Police and have no interest in "telling" anyone how to ship internationally, but it is incorrect to say that it is just as easy as it is to ship to the States.  The next time you use any of the services, including PayPal and eBay, take time to read the check boxes.  You are making a lot of LEGAL assertions.


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## jcollazo (Dec 14, 2007)

Before I started Turncrafts in earnst, I availed myself in a free Global Logistics couse provided by the State Dept., Dept. of Commerce and a local Adult School program. The first thing we learned was that importing was relatively easy. Exporting is where we needed to spend much of out time on. And we have. Our teacher (35 years world trade experience and still working in all aspects of the business) seems to be on a holy crusade that we know the issues involved in exporting. I'm still no expert but I know where to find the answers.


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## Firefyter-emt (Dec 14, 2007)

Ok ok... enough talk about canuck shipping. Have you SEEN that Cloisonne pen!!!  I LOVE it!

My pet peeve latly is that all the kits were starting to look the same. Center band with a black stripe...  Eye candy I tell you, that pen is just plain eye candy!  I want one...


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## Geo in Winnipeg (Dec 14, 2007)

The Cloisonne pen looks beautiful ... but ... I noticed in the description the words Rose Gold. I hope it's not like the Swiss Rose Gold on Berea's flat top American - it tarnishes in no time at all.


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## alamocdc (Dec 15, 2007)

> _Originally posted by Firefyter-emt_
> 
> Ok ok... enough talk about canuck shipping. Have you SEEN that Cloisonne pen!!!  I LOVE it!
> 
> My pet peeve latly is that all the kits were starting to look the same. Center band with a black stripe...  Eye candy I tell you, that pen is just plain eye candy!  I want one...



I really like it too, Lee. It caught my attention right away and I thought the same thing, "When and HOW can I get one... or six?"


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## maxwell_smart007 (Dec 15, 2007)

I think their pictures really show off the kits better than the pics at CSUSA...

I'm really hoping that something works out for a group buy sometime...

Andrew


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## DCBluesman (Dec 15, 2007)

Folks, check out their website and their ad.  They are NOT looking to do group buys. They are looking for additional DISTRIBUTORS.  Why would they deal directly with us and shaft there existing distributors?  Now if we want to form a joint venture, invest capital, take risks, and so on and so on, I'm sure they would LOVE to sign us up as a new channel.


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## MesquiteMan (Dec 15, 2007)

Hmmmm...looks like Dayacom makes the Majestic for PSI.


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## IPD_Mrs (Dec 15, 2007)

> _Originally posted by DCBluesman_
> 
> Folks, check out their website and their ad.  They are NOT looking to do group buys. They are looking for additional DISTRIBUTORS.  Why would they deal directly with us and shaft there existing distributors?  Now if we want to form a joint venture, invest capital, take risks, and so on and so on, I'm sure they would LOVE to sign us up as a new channel.



Bingo!


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## thewishman (Dec 15, 2007)

> _Originally posted by alamocdc_
> 
> I really like it too, Lee. It caught my attention right away and I thought the same thing, "When and HOW can I get one... or six?"



How 'bout 500? 

The "Dayacom Pen w/ Threaded End Cap" is my favorite. The "Elegant Beauty Twist Ball Pen" is funky, but is starting to grow on me.

Chris


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## arioux (Dec 15, 2007)

> _Originally posted by MesquiteMan_
> 
> Hmmmm...looks like Dayacom makes the Majestic for PSI.



Most of PSI kits coms from them.  As a matter of fact, most of the quality kit comes from them.  I got over 300 bags here that says Taywan - Dayacom, either from PSI or CSU. 

Alfred


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## Daniel (Dec 15, 2007)

I'm thinking that maybe, just maybe, wholesaller means you are willing to meet the MOQ.
Also notice in the CSUSA catalog along with the Gentlemen's, jr. Gentlemen's, Statesman, jr. Statesman, Emperor, jr. Emperor, jr. Retro, Lotus, Ligero, and Imperial are the Logo Exclusive.
If you look on the dayacom site under company you will see they have been working with CSUSA since 1989. this coupled with the statement farther down that page that says "If you would like a price quote on kits of your design, please feel free to contact us". This tells me that although this is the source of the higher end kits, they are owned exclusivly by CSUSA. of course the design could be altered enough to then make it our own. 
Just connecting some dots but may very well be drawing the wrong picture.


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## airrat (Dec 15, 2007)

> _Originally posted by jcollazo_
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Sadly for those of us that dont mail every month, Endicia charges a monthly fee after the trial period.   Unless I missed something.


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## maxwell_smart007 (Dec 15, 2007)

Has anyone contacted them to see if this is, indeed, possible, or is it just a pipe dream?


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## jcollazo (Dec 15, 2007)

> _Originally posted by maxwell_smart007_
> 
> Has anyone contacted them to see if this is, indeed, possible, or is it just a pipe dream?



I have already contacted them.


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## jcollazo (Dec 15, 2007)

> _Originally posted by DCBluesman_
> 
> Folks, check out their website and their ad.  They are NOT looking to do group buys. They are looking for additional DISTRIBUTORS.  Why would they deal directly with us and shaft there existing distributors?  Now if we want to form a joint venture, invest capital, take risks, and so on and so on, I'm sure they would LOVE to sign us up as a new channel.



In one of my posts in this thread I mentioned that I realized the email was specifically for me. I had originally contacted Dayacom in regards to carrying some of their non-pen kit items. They replied, then, that I should look to CSUSA for my purchasing needs. I thought that was the end of that. Yesterday I get this email from them with the link to the website. I was going to keep the info to myself until I saw the ad they were putting in AAW. 

I am a wholesaler who didn't want to get into selling pen kits. But, if I could run the purchases as a GB then it COULD be a win win for both pen turners and Turncrafts. There are still a number of unanswered questions and some logistical issues to be ironed out. Monday or Tuesday we should know more.


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## ed4copies (Dec 15, 2007)

> _Originally posted by wood-of-1kind_
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Peter,

At the risk of sounding argumentative, I have never had to fill out a customs form to ship to California.  On the other hand, EVERY shipment to Canada has demanded this form.  As I do it more often, I have the computer reject my calculations LESS often, but it is still an extra step that makes shipping to Canada a pain in the a$$.

I like you guys, so I still do it, but I sure understand why some of the American suppliers won't bother.  Many orders are $20ish - profit about $3.  IT ain't worth the trip to the Post Office.  Make your orders $100 plus and there is motivation - but few hit this mark (vent completed)   Back to my regularly scheduled positive mental attitude!!


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## rlharding (Dec 15, 2007)

I just composed a letter, a long one, then lost the darn thing when I went to post it.

In summary, I was having a rant about the comments related to potential Canadian customers. The negative comments are driving me bonkers!

Where do you think we live?  We are right here, we share the worlds largest undefended border.

Canada supplies more crude oil to the US than Saudi Arabia and Iraq combined.

Canada supplies 85% of American imports of natural gas.

Canada supplies 1/3 of the uranium used in commercial reactors in the US.

Canada buys four times as much from the US than China.

One in 25 American jobs depends on free and open trade with Canada.

When I first joined this board I asked for the link to the web sites of members whom are also suppliers (Such a list still doesn't exist).

Do I have to get my supplies from the you?  NO

Do we have pen kit suppliers in Canada?  YES

DO we have Canadian suppliers for pen turning wood/acrylics and what have you?  YES.

Do we pay Canadian taxes on our orders? YES, MUCH MORE THAN OFTEN.

So you see, we really don't need to shop from you at all.  I do it because you are my community and I would rather put my money with 'my community'  than someone else.

Some of you are talking as if Canadian customers are just not worth any amount of work.  Goodness, you may have to line up at a post office,  or worse, you may have to fill out a customs form, or last but not least, you may have to do more solid packaging for Canadian orders.

Someone mentioned that if we ordered in the $100 range it would be different.  I guess our money isn't good enough for you.  I recently tried to place an order in the range of $200 and the supplier berated me for even asking if he would ship to Canada.

All told my bits of money has amounted to almost $1000 of supplies in the last two months, a large part of that money went to suppliers who are members of this forum.  During this year alone I have spent over $10,000 on wood turning tools, supplies, kits and wood/acrylic.  I also bought a lathe so the figure is high for this year.  But think of it?  Canadians have money we prefer to send to some of you folks than buy here in Canada.  

Please don't insult us by talking as if we are nothing but a pain in the a**.


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## doddman70 (Dec 15, 2007)

Very well said 

Shane


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## jcollazo (Dec 16, 2007)

I have sent packages to Canada, the U.K., Japan and Australia. For me, the extra minute or two it takes to fill out a customs form is just part of the job. I have always thought that the person purchasing from me could have easily spent their money somewhere else. They chose me. That's an important fact for me to remember. I try to give a quality product at a fair price and if that includes spending a few moments filling out an easy form... I will do it ... whether it's for $20 or $200. I guess that's just the way I'm wired. Setting up Turncrafts legally (tax and business permits) took some effort. This stuff is cake compared to that mess.


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## Monty (Dec 16, 2007)

I too have no problem shipping to Canada or anywhere else internationally. My problem is trying to get a straight answer from USP. Still trying to find out if I can ship debonder and accelerator to Canada.


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## PostalBob (Dec 16, 2007)

have been searching this company and trying to find the source of what they will offer above our normal sources? But if the price is right i would greatly buy into a group lot buy
Thanks Bbo


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## Daniel (Dec 17, 2007)

I got a reply to my e-mail. I am copying it here.
Dear Daniel,

Thanks your email received here.

Our offer are for wholesaler only.  We do not supply with complete price lists
only offer with specific items and enquiry.

Please indicate items numbers, so that we can quote prices accordingly.

Shipment within 50-60 days after receipt of buyer's wire payment in advance.
At present our production schedule are a little tight because many orders are
reached here.

Thanks and best regards,

Angus Lee

My e-mail had asked what requirements needed to be met to be recognized as a wholesaler. for a complete price list, and for information regard cost of shipping to the U.S.
Not exactly a complete answer. bit i will give it another shot.


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## nvillerod (Dec 17, 2007)

Guys/ladies:

This could be a blasphemous type post on this website...but here goes!

I have been a customer of our pen suppliers on and off for about 15 years.  Generally speaking, they all provide excellent service and the small suppliers seem like nice guys to deal with.  

Here comes the however...if they have been charging us, in some cases, 3 times (or more) their cost on a kit, my "price gouging" radar begins to go off.  Let me preface these statements with the fact I have never been in business for myself, so I am not intimately familiar with the day to day costs of running a business, but it seems that a possible 300% profit margin is excessive.  

I do not begrudge someone from making a fair profit, just as I would like to do from selling one of my pen masterpieces. I believe there is difference in creating a product vs. taking a plastic bag off the shelf and putting it in an envelope, thus percentage of profit should be higher for the hand made product.  I know our suppliers have shipping costs to get the products from Asia, other overhead costs, etc., but come on...

If the Daycom website is accurate on some of the price listings, at least in my mind, I believe we deserve a justification for the prices we have been charged.


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## DCBluesman (Dec 17, 2007)

Ok, let's back it up a second.  Are you really upset because our suppliers mark the product up 3X?  Isn't that about what those of you who sell pens use as a multiplier to get your "wholesale" price?  And then you know your wholesale price is doubled?  So your retail price is really 6X your costs?  And don't some of you strive to mark up your pens even more?  Should our suppliers work on less margin than we want to?  If the kits you purchase from our suppliers are not worth the markup, by all means, arrange for a $250k loan and stock your own.  By the way, that only works out to 500 units each of 10 kits in 5 plating choices if you include shipping and other fees.  Get real on this, folks.  If there was really a ton of money to be made on these parts, don't you think there would be more than a handful of distributors?  Don't get me wrong, I think the markups on the components is substantial, but excessive?  I'm not convinced.  And, by the way, I also don't have the $250k to start the business. [8D]


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## great12b4ever (Dec 17, 2007)

> _Originally posted by nvillerod_
> 
> Guys/ladies:
> 
> ...



Rod, if you don't mind lets just look at this for a moment.  Say a kit costs them $5 and they charge $15 for it.  that is a 300% charge over their original cost.  Yes they have shipping.  They also have to pay for a wharehouse, web-site, business license, occupation license, sign permits, computers, web-sites, constantly changing sales situations.  They (for the most part) also have to have replacement parts for the times their customer service people send out a replacement kit.  In most states they have to pay an inventory tax once each year for the total inventory they carry, and realize this isn't just for 20 or 30 kits, but 500 is the minimum order quantity.  Now they also, or at least most of them, have to pay for competent help which ain't cheap.  If they are paying someone $10.00 per hour, then they will have to make $16.-18.00 per hour just to cover the cost of that one person, when you figure in FICA, FUTA Social Security that must be paid (SS at 7.63matching funds from employer.  Then business insurance, health insurance, Do you pay for the holidays?, and vacations?, jury duty?  So that $10 per hour is closer to $18.00 per hour, not counting training time. Then you must realize that you usually pay for these kits when it is ordered, and as one post said, that is wire transfer 50-60 days BEFORE the kits are ready to ship, then 30-60 days shipping time.  So your money is tied up for 90 to 120 days before the kits arive.  Then you have to advertise the kits, sort, catalog, warehouse, etc.  It may easily be 6 months before you sell the first kits and your money is already spent.  Now you have to project how long it will take to sell enough of the kits to get your money back, cover overhead, cover labor costs, cover taxes, insurance etc.  After that number is reached and all of your costs are covered. THEN can you start making a profit.  That is if the kits sell well, and you do not have to discount them to move them as they are dogs.
Sorry for the length, but it ain't cheap to be in business for small items.  It is not unusual for these items to be marked up 4, 5 or even 6 times tehir cost.  Because $1. cost with a $400 % MU just gives you $4.00 to cover everything.

Rob


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## IPD_Mrs (Dec 17, 2007)

Rod you really need to take into account the cost of getting the merchandise to the purchaser in the actual price of the pen.  I know you are a little cold today up there in Nobletucky, but think it through.[]

Besides it is not a 300% profit margin, but a 300% markup from their initial cost.  Most likely, by the time they pay for shipping to them, someone to unpack and stock the merchandise, some sweet gal to take your order on the phone, an IT geek to make you a web site if you prefer to do business that way, another person to pull your order and then yet a seperate person to pack (same person cannot pull and pack, reduces errors), all their bennifits, the cost of the warehouse, utilities, office and packing supplies and anything else I forgot, do you honestly think they are making 300% proffit, or did I just justify part of their expense for you?

Mike


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## great12b4ever (Dec 17, 2007)

Lou, Mike, looks like we were all three on the same page for once
Rob


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## Woodlvr (Dec 17, 2007)

I would just like to know where the prices are listed on DAYACOM, does Rod have a different website page that I cannot see? I am just curious if it is like that other website that showed prices.

Mike


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## jcollazo (Dec 17, 2007)

This may not be popular, but I've started a blog regarding doing a pseudo group buy from Dayacom. My reasons are listed on the blog and the main one is that this may become a commercial operation for Turncrafts.com and I don't want to utilize IAP bandwidth for Turncrafts business discussions. I hope I have the blog set up correctly so that you can read my thoughts and comments without having to register. To comment you will have to register.

Also, to get to the site, please PM me and I'll send out the link. You can give the link to any other pen turner but please don't publish it for the immediate world.

Now..... release the hounds!!!


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## jcollazo (Dec 17, 2007)

> _Originally posted by nvillerod_
> 
> Let me preface these statements with the fact I have never been in business for myself, so I am not intimately familiar with the day to day costs of running a business, but it seems that a possible 300% profit margin is excessive.



I have started and ran a few businesses. What you call a 300% profit margin I call maybe, If I'm lucky, a 30% profit margin with a 270% cost of doing business. I know that statement will make any business person shake their head, but to the layman who doesn't see the fees, taxes, utilities, employees, insurance and other monies that must be paid before a product can be put up for sale It can look like someone is making a ton of money. Any vendor will price according to their costs. Importing has some many hidden fees that the rule of thumb is that the price on any item will double just to get it to a US port of entry. Sometimes it's less, sometimes it's more.


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## nvillerod (Dec 17, 2007)

I'm reading all your information.  Like I said, I have not been in business for myself.  I am interested in all opinions...keep the justifications coming.


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## ed4copies (Dec 17, 2007)

As a founder and business owner for 35 years, let's just say there is no reason anyone has to "justify" a price.

They made the product available and told you the pricing structure.  For years, I have said the margin on the kits over $12 is ridiculous.  HOWEVER, I have purchased these kits, nonetheless.  If you have too, that was YOUR choice.  Complain if you like, but the only way they will stop charging these prices is competitive pressure (which MAY develop with DAYACOM) or lack of consumer acceptance, which WOULD develop if all of us and the other thousands of hobbyists stop BUYING their product.

That's the way it is!! (Quoth Charles Kurault, I believe)


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## Daniel (Dec 17, 2007)

I have also ran businesses. note more than one. I am also one of those that preach the 3X rule for pricing pens. this pricing system is intended for the home hobbiest and is intended as a way to actually come away with more in your pocket than when you started. You take material costs times three and then add the cost of your time. Why three times materials? 1. is to recover the cost you paid for them 2. is a good rough way to pay for all the extras you never think about, like the electricity you paid for to turn the pen, the tools you used, fees for the shows you will take it to, a pen box and all the other extra doo dads (Overhead) 3. your shop itself has to be looked at like an employee and it has to be paid, this pay lets you expand, get the new timesaving tool or whatever you need to keep your shop up to date. Finally you need to add an hourly wage for you, that will be whatever it is worth to you to make and sell pens. If you want to make 20/ hour and it takes 30 min to make a slimline. you take the cost of the slimline kit+ blank X 3 + $10.00 = selling price.
the above system was never intended for a business with the massive overhead they have. The above system also takes into consideration taking cost of raw materials and converting into goods. By basic thought about retailers is that they double the cost of there items to resell it. but even that is not an ironclad system.


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## nvillerod (Dec 17, 2007)

Ed, you are correct; I've purchased the kits at their prices because I had no choice.  A business has a better chance of getting my money if I feel their prices are justified (we differ on that one).

Actually, Walter Cronkite used that quote as his news program sign off (damn I'm old).


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## Daniel (Dec 17, 2007)

I knew it was Walter Cronkite, and can remember hearing him say it. but i'm not old yet. seasoned maybe but not old.
Anyway anouther thought. recall the shipping charges from Rizheng? I really don't think shipping from DAYACOM is going to be drastically different. so there is easily anouther 30% to the cost.


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## thewishman (Dec 18, 2007)

I am willing to pay for the convenience of ordering a single kit or 100 kits on my terms, when I need it. $3.59 or $3.75 for a cigar pen that I sell for $45.00? That is a no brainer. $50.00 for a kit I sell for $195.00 - I wish I could do that more frequently.

If you buy a candy bar at the convinience store - $.89
If you buy 500 from Hershey - $.21

I seldom need 500 candy bars.

My pens sell for a significant profit - even after paying for a kit that is priced to earn my supplier a profit. I want my suppliers to make a sufficient profit that allows them to continue to be my suppliers.

Chris

That doesn't mean I won't participate in a group buy, but most of my purchases will continue to come from my existing suppliers.


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## SuperDave (Dec 18, 2007)

It's all about Supply and Demand. Limit the supply and increase the demand and you make more profits. There is a reason that only a few companies are able to offer the quality kits you enjoy making... 

There is a difference between Mark Up and Profit Margin.

Typically, Mark Up is a percentage applied to a fixed cost to determine the selling price. Some industries refer to this as "cost plus" pricing.

Typically Profit Margin is a ratio of the "profit" that is in the selling price. A good rule of thumb to calculate your "Profit Margin" is: (selling price - cost)/Selling Price.

So:
A $1.00 item Marked Up 300% and you have a $4.00 selling price.
A ($4.00 selling price - $1.00 cost) = $3.00 /$4.00 selling price = 75% Margin... not 300%

Now remember, that "Profit Margin" is referred to more correctly as "Gross Margin" which means that you still have to deduct ALL of your associated costs of doing business from the "Gross Profit" to arrive at your "Net Profit."

You can see where the 75% Gross Margin can easily be reduced as low as single digit Net Margin when you factor out ALL the costs. For instance, a grocery chain store will "Gross" 30%-40% but the average retail grocery chain store will net less than 1%. How do they stay in business? VOLUME, VOLUME, VOLUME.

Labor can be roughly calculated as Salary (hourly too) x 1.45 to cover benefits, etc. So, you have to pay your $10.00/Hour employee $14.50 to cover their benefits and labor costs.

Then there are CPA's, Attorneys, Insurance of all kinds, advertising and marketing, debt service on loans, inventory costs, quarterly estimated taxes, payroll and payroll taxes, and on and on it goes... eating away at your "Gross Margin." Sounds like fun... let's all go into business for ourselves!!  The little "business in the garage" cannot begin to compare to what it takes to run a real business on the scale of a CSUSA, nor should the "Garage Enterprise" compare their "perceived profits" with what they "perceive" a CSUSA is making.

Cash flow is the life blood of EVERY business. A successful business will find ways to preserve their cash. When you tie up money in inventory, you have less cash to operate your business. Many, many "successful" businesses have failed because they had too little cash flow.

In dealing with overseas suppliers, it is typical to use an SLOC (standby letter of credit) so you do not have to tie up your cash for 90-180 days. Not every business can get an SLOC.

As for businesses making unseemly profits, what about Insurance Corporations? They are some of the single largest "Institutional Investors" (buying stocks in blocks of 100,000 shares or greater) on Wall Street... using the "profits" from your premiums. Remember that the next time your rates go up for some petty reason.

The next time you get your "FREE glossy four color CSUSA catalog delivered to your door" to peruse while sitting on the porcelain throne, remember that it was brought to you by a company that spent some of their "Gross Profits" to provide you some reading materials.


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## btboone (Dec 18, 2007)

Very well said Dave.  Also, any time the product has lots of variations of colors or finishes, you can be assured the public will want a different ratio that you planned for.  You're stuck with a lot of colors or variations that nobody wants and run out of the popular ones.  You have to throw more money at the issue to get it right.  It's all about catching back up to $ zero.  I used to do that a lot, and I've changed some of my business practices this time around.


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## dfurlano (Dec 18, 2007)

http://www.dilbert.com/comics/dilbert/archive/dilbert-20071217.html


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## SuperDave (Dec 18, 2007)

> _Originally posted by btboone_
> 
> Very well said Dave.  Also, any time the product has lots of variations of colors or finishes, you can be assured the public will want a different ratio that you planned for.  You're stuck with a lot of colors or variations that nobody wants and run out of the popular ones.  You have to throw more money at the issue to get it right.  It's all about catching back up to $ zero.  I used to do that a lot, and I've changed some of my business practices this time around.



Bruce,

There is also the value of the long-term relationship between CSUSA and their over-seas supplier. Their combined volume with this supplier will dwarf any group buy. You can rest assured that CSUSA is watching this closely and contacting the manufacturer to make sure they know where they stand. CSUSA has not been in business for 25 years by standing by and "letting business happen."

Then you have the Robinson-Patman Act of 1936 which enforces anti-pricing discrimination. In a nutshell, any distributor that buys in volume, is entitled to the same pricing offered to any other distributor, provided they purchase at the same volume bracket. This creates a separation between the big dogs and the wanna-be's. The big dogs can always buy at the most preferred bracket pricing because they can buy at the required volume. The wanna-be's get around this with buying co-ops that buy at the higher volume requirements and then split up the shipments AFTER they are delivered.

There is a lot involved in this proposed venture and can be a challenge for the faint of heart.


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## CharlesSharp (Dec 26, 2007)

Please let me know if this ever gets off the ground.


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## Daniel (Dec 26, 2007)

Charels, and others,
Joe started a blog on this. If you e-mail him he will send you a link to it.


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## MrWoody (Jan 4, 2008)

Lots of good points for both sides.  I have been on both sides of the coin, as an owner of the business and as an end user.

As for the owner, I learned a long time ago that the profit is made on the purchase not on the sale.  The better I was able negotiate the price the higher my profit would be.

As for the end user, I am looking for the lowest price without sacraficing quality and service.

Bottom line, I want to save as much as possible on an item when I purchase it.  I may be happy with the supplier I am using but if a better price comes along I am obligated (as a good business man) to investigate it.  That is why this type of discussion is so important.

Happy Turning


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## makaiolani (Jan 7, 2008)

Hello guys,

This is a very good thread on Dayacom.  I have begun dealing with dayacom directly and have already started to receive my shipments.  Hopefully this will help all of you considering lowering your costs.

Shipping on two pallets weighing 750kg costs me 1500.00 just to Hawaii.
Customs comes out to be about 6% of total invoice.  (my last invoice was for 20k.)
Then there are fowarding agent fees totaling 400.00
Wire transfer fees for wiring money to them.

I have begun to sell dayacom's kits at a price that is very affordable while at the same time covering my costs of bringing them in.  My main business is to make the pens.  So I am trying to pass on the savings to others that are interested in the kits I bring in.

Please let me know if you all have any questions.  I will continue to post more kits on my website as well as in the forums here.

Aaron Lau


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