# comments on finshing techniques? (loongish)



## mbower (Jul 13, 2008)

I've read a number of the threads here and even tried some of them.

Below is what I normally (I actually have two methods).  I'm sure I'm doing something that I shouldn't be doing so I'd like the collective wisdom of this group.  You folks have a LOT more experience than I do.

Method one (all done while on the mandrel but lathe not always on):

1) lathe until just proud of the bushings (lathe on of course)
2) sand with 120 grit until even with the bushings (on)
3) continue sanding through 400 grit (on)
4) MM through 12,000 (on)
   a) first 5 grits for a count of 10 each
   b) last 4 grits for a count of 20 each
5) paper bag paper (on)
6) apply SS (off)
   a) apply evenly
   b) wipe until dry
   c) usually one coat
7) apply EEE (off then on)
   a) apply evenly
   b) lathe off excess until paper towel is clean
8) apply friction polish (on)
   a) apply with one paper towel
   b) use second paper towel to wipe off and polish (hold until warm)
   c) apply 2-3 times
9) apply Ren wax (mostly off)
   a) apply evenly (off)
   b) let dry 30-45 seconds (off)
   c) wipe off and polish (off)
   d) apply second coat (off)
   e) let dry (off)
   f) wipe off and polish (sometime turn on lathe for buffing affect)

10) Done

All of this is one the mandrel.  Once done, I remove and assemble the pen.

Method two:

1) lathe until just proud of the bushings (lathe on of course)
2) sand with 120 grit until even with the bushings (on)
3) continue sanding through 400 grit (on)
4) apply blo/ca (on)
   a) fold paper towel over so I have 8 thicknesses
   b) paper towel size will be approx 4" wide by 8" tall
   c) apply THICK CA line/bead to lower 1/3 of towel in my hand
   d) apply to pen moving back and forth quickly (on)
   e) add large pool of BLO to middle third of paper towel
   f) quickly apply to pen blank moving quickly over entire blank (on)
   g) quickly wipe with top/dry third of paper towel
   h) (sometimes) 'sand' with steel wool
      (this is done if I feel a build up anywhere on the blank)
   i) repeat above for 3-4 times but don't use steel wool last time
5) MM through 12,000 (on)
6) apply EEE (off then on)
   a) apply evenly to blank (off)
   b) turn on lathe and wipe off excess with paper towel (on)
   c) continue wiping until paper towel stays clean (on)
7) apply friction polish (on)
   a) apply FP to paper towel and apply to blank (on)
   b) use second paper towel to polish until warm (friction) (on)
   c) do this 2-3 times
8) apply Ren wax (off then on)
   a) apply evenly (off)
   b) let dry 30-45 seconds (off)
   c) wipe off excess and polish with soft cloth or paper towel (off)
   d) apply second coat (off)
   e) let dry 30-45 seconds
   f) wipe off excess and polish with soft cloth (off)
   g) sometimes I 'buff' with the soft cloth (on)
      (I don't have a buffing system yet)
9) remove from lathe/mandrel and assemble pen

So based on the above:

1) what should I be doing differently?
2) can I eliminate anything?
3) have I got it all in the wrong order (based on my mis-knowledge)

Any other comments?

(Sorry it is long.)


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## brez (Jul 13, 2008)

Michael,

What has been your experience with the results of these two approaches? Has one or the other given you a better finish? Has one or the other proven to be a longer lasting finish? Sorry to not give you any answers, just questions, but I have not known anybody to combine the CA/BLO finish with the Friction Polish finish as you described.

Thanks
Mike


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## JimB (Jul 13, 2008)

Hi Michael - You don't say if you are having an actual problem with your finish, are just trying to improve on an alreay good finish or just trying to reduce the number of steps to get the same end results. If you are not getting the finish that you want you might want to tell the group what you don't like about your finish or what problem you are having.

I'm not going to comment on your process since I am also new at all this and not qualified to give advice on your process and still trying to perfect my finish. I'm sure others with much more experience will help you out. I'll be watching your thread since I'm always looking for advice on finishing to make mine better.


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## randyrls (Jul 13, 2008)

> _Originally posted by mbower_
> 
> I've read a number of the threads here and even tried some of them.
> Any other comments?



&gt;&gt;1) lathe until just proud of the bushings (lathe on of course)

Michael;  I will advise you to *NEVER TRUST BUSHINGS!*  I have found bushings that are up .014" smaller than fitting size.  
I use digital calipers to measure the fittings of the pen and then press the zero button on the calipers to show how much I need to remove from the blank.

&gt;&gt;4) apply blo/ca (on)

The CA finish will be much more durable than a friction finish.
Some advise using CA without the BLO.  Which ever you decide, develop one that produces a good finish and then stick with it.


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## mbower (Jul 13, 2008)

Answers:

1) I don't trust bushings when they get older.  When they are fairly new, I do.  I guess I shouldn't assume anything.  I, too, have digital calipers.  Man, what a difference from the analog calipers I was using.  (I learned my lesson one day when I turned 3 pens and then found the bushings were so warn I almost threw the pens away.)

2) I'm asking for general advice and more for "you dummy, if you do this, here is the result".  I also see some people who let their pens dry and so it takes them a lot longer and was wondering if that is necessary.

I haven't been turning pens long enough to know how the finish will last.  And I've turned so many pens just for myself, I don't use the same pen every day.

The only difference I've really noticed is that lighter woods turned with BLO/CA will darken slightly.  Not over time but in doing the finishing, I get a slightly darker tone to the wood.  I noticed this the most on some Olive wood that I did.  Pens finished with method number 1 turned out more natural looking finish.  With BLO/CA, they are slightly darker.  This is not bad, just different.

I do want my pens to last as I hope to sell a lot more than I have so far.  (Got 2 orders on Friday.  Yippee.  And the one show I've done, I sold 3 pens and got three more orders.)  I think I've sold maybe 10 so far.  I guess I better keep my day job (computer programmer for the intelligence community here).


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## mbower (Jul 13, 2008)

CA finish vs friction finish?

Do I have the wrong notion?  I consider the CA finish a way of putting a 'coating' on that will protect the pen.  Someone at the woodstore basically likened it to turning the surface to more like a plastic surface (generic term) rather than a wood surface.

But I consider the friction polish a polish after the protectorant.  It is for polishing.  Not for protecting.

BTW, the end of method number 1 (steps 6-8) is a modification of what I got from the guys at Woodturners Catalog.  I liked that method but then started trying the CA/BLO as it was also fun.


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## rherrell (Jul 13, 2008)

STOP at #5 with method two. Lose method one. That's just MY opinion Michael.


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## BobBurt (Jul 13, 2008)

My two cents worth...

Stick with one method, if not, it will drive you crazy. I was having a heck of a time, but, worked through it.

My advise....Don't over complicate it.....I had a hard time following your steps in both methods, you have a lot going on


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## JimB (Jul 13, 2008)

Some aditional thoughts for you (reminder, I don't have a lot of experience)...

I have found more coats of Friction Polish gets better results. I apply it by rubbing it on with lathe off. Just takes about 15 seconds. Do not put it on to thick. Then turn up the rpm as much as I can and do as you are doing. I get it as hot as I can. I do 5 coats as I have found coats 4 and 5 really improve the finish. BTW I am moving away from using FP as I am now getting better with CA finish.

From what I understand from other people it is the BLO that is darkening your wood. It does it more with open grains and will be more apparent with lighter woods. You can apply the CA without the BLO. I think, but am not sure, if you apply the CA first then the BLO it will lessen the darkening. If you go through some older threads in the Finishing forum you will find several about CA/BLO, BLO/CA, CA only.

Also, I didn't see in either process that you are wiping down your blanks between each sanding grit. This can help eliminate scratches in the wood.


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## RussFairfield (Jul 13, 2008)

A few comments -  

If you are starting sanding at 120-grit, you either need to spend more time learning to get a better turned finish or use sharper tools. Some claim they start at 400, but 220 is a reasonable expectation. The problem is that 120 leaves some very deep sanding scratches that can be hard to remove.

You didn't mention stopping and sanding with the length of the barrel, or did I miss that. This will get rid of those circular sanding scratches and can be very important at the coarser grits.

You should be sanding by looking at the results on the wood, and not counting. Depending on the wood and the grit you are using, counting to 10 or 20 can be either too long or insufficient.

You need an inspection step somewhere in that schedule between the 400, 600, or steel wool and starting with the Micro-Mesh. Use a bright light and hand-sand until there are absolutely no blemishes in the surface. No dimples, no bright spots, and definitely no sanding scratches. Then you can go on to the MicroMesh.

The only other comment I can make is that, after all of that long finishing schedule, you shouldn't be in a hurry to get it off the lathe and assembled. More good finishes are ruined during the 1st minute after removing the barrels from the lathe than at any other time, especially when the finish is a lacquer or shellac friction polish. All finishes are soft when they are warm. Wait until the barrels have cooled to room temperature before touching them, and then handle carefully. It is a good idea to wait until the next day to assemble the pen.


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## Larry Gottlieb (Jul 13, 2008)

I had used friction polish after CA as you do. I then read that the polish I was using (Shellawax) was meant to be used on "raw timber" and applying it to CA finished wood did not help. 

I then tried a Shellawax finish on one barrel and CA an the other. I assembled the pen and handled it with a lot of rubbing to simulate a lot of use. The Shellawax did not last as long as the CA.

I also use EEE after letting the BLO/CA finish sit overnight and then apply Renaissance wax. I don't handle the pen until the Ren wax is on.

Larry


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## Larry Gottlieb (Jul 13, 2008)

I should have added that I sand vertically through 400. I inspect the pens using a dissecting microscope to check for sanding scratches and using 600 and up doesn't leave scratches even without vertical sanding.

Larry


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