# Feeling the squeeze!... regrets



## SCR0LL3R (Feb 27, 2012)

Maybe I will get flak for talking such heresy here but oh well...

Today I noticed another very big price jump (33%) in yet another component I regularly use and it has really left me feeling regretful of getting so invested in this hobby. I haven't been making pens for a year yet and I have seen prices go up by big percentages on many kits, blanks, supplies and a moderate hit even in shipping rates to Canada. (Much more than the national rate increase in the US) Pens are already a hard sell in at the price I need to charge and it's only getting worse... fast!!! Pretty soon, I'm only going to be able to make streamlines.

I tallied up all my supplies and tools for the year 2011 and was near $9000!!! I know I have a lot of inventory that I expect to sell over time but I doubt I will ever break even. 

If I could go back in time and do it over again, I wouldn't have started... Not if I knew what it was going to cost me. Think what I could have done $9000! I am looking at furniture now and thinking to myself, I could have gotten a beautiful hand made bedroom set and a living room set and still had money to spare! Until now, I just kept saying, "what's another $100 at this point, etc..." but today's increase has really got me ruffled!

We are the real pen enthusiasts, and we are being charged accordingly. The only thing different about us, is that we put them together ourselves.

/end rant

signed,
Negative Nelly


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## Ruby pen turning (Feb 27, 2012)

Hmm .... The only squeeze i am feeling is the 220 pens I have for sale at descent prices and no one is buying. I sold maybe 2 pens this month WOW!!!


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## PTsideshow (Feb 27, 2012)

Get ready, as the prices will jump again, and again etc as the price for fuel goes up and up. And they don't ever seem to lower the prices once they get an increase. 
I know of only one hobby that doesn't cost money! Had a Dentist years ago who's hobby was pronouncing peoples last names. :biggrin:
So if you want to move on you won't have much trouble selling your hobby related items on this forum.  Or just hang in there like they say, this too shall pass!.
:clown:


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## Haynie (Feb 27, 2012)

I have noticed this as well and that is why I am venturing-slowly, very slowly-into componentless pens.  

When folks in these parts hear how much a certain pen will cost their eyes bug out, the local market is not going to support my hobby so I plan to start making more complicated pens so it takes longer from design to finish.  At least there will be more time between part orders.  At least my wife hopes that is the way it will be.:biggrin:


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## SCR0LL3R (Feb 27, 2012)

PTsideshow said:


> ...
> So if you want to move on you won't have much trouble selling your hobby related items on this forum...
> :clown:



Since I am in Canada, the cost of this stuff crossing the border and high shipping costs would mean I would take a big hit if I wanted to resell... Stuff coming in from the US gets 30% in extra charges with taxes and shipping by the time I get it... Not worth it to resell really. I just have to stop buying and slowly but steadily sell... eventually I should make most of it back. More than if I resell my supplies.

The hard part is to draw the line and STOP SPENDING. I like to collect and I like to shop!


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## LeeR (Feb 27, 2012)

"Nel",

I feel the pain for you all the sellers who have mentioned slow sales, either here, or in other posts. I do not sell my pens, I mostly provide pens as gifts to family and friends, so I am somewhat less sensitive (or aware) of increases in kit prices, at least from the small vendors here on IAP. I do not make anywhere near the volume that many of you do. (I started turning in the Fall of 2010, and I've only made about 35 pens, and I have maybe 50 kits still in my inventory. Some of you make in a week more than I would make in a year!)

I have a number of kits I bought back in 2010, mostly from places like Woodcraft or Lee Valley. I have a local Woodcraft I visit occasionally, and I am shocked at how much prices have gone up for kits from them. I mail order less frequently from Lee Valley, but I do not think they have raised prices as much as Woodcraft. However, now I buy exclusively from IAP vendors, and tend to only buy a few kits here and there, enough to get some discount, and primarily to get newer kits, or better plating than the 24K gold and chrome kits that made up most of my earlier purchases. 

I was considering selling some pens, and have decided not to, based on what I am hearing. I have made some nice wine stoppers, even from my own segmented blanks, and have had my wife take some to her work to show. Everyone thinks they are beautiful, but nobody wants to spend $25-30 for one. I refuse to cut prices and settle for maybe $10 profit or so for one - it just isn't worth the time and effort.


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## Haynie (Feb 27, 2012)

Me and someone I got hooked on the hobby were just talking about this very thing.  He is moving back to Oklahoma.  He makes slims and some euros and wants to sell some just to cover hobby expenses.  He could not sell a slim here for 15 dollars to save his life.  He went back to Oklahoma a week ago and sold what he had and took some orders for more.  He makes some nice pens too.

As several here have said Location location location.

Sounds like our soon to reach 55 mph gusts are here.  Spring in the desert.  Got to love it.


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## vthowe (Feb 27, 2012)

What a bummer to hear as a newbie!  Though at this point, I'm doing it more as a hobby but I'd like to make some sales at some point.

I have to wonder...and ask.  Given all the great things I've seen here at IAP, I wonder if we all work together if there is anything we can do about these prices?


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## SCR0LL3R (Feb 27, 2012)

vthowe said:


> What a bummer to hear as a newbie!  Though at this point, I'm doing it more as a hobby but I'd like to make some sales at some point.
> 
> I have to wonder...and ask.  Given all the great things I've seen here at IAP, I wonder if we all work together if there is anything we can do about these prices?



Well there are group buys for Craft Supplies USA and sometimes Bear Tooth Woods which helps to get the kits a little cheaper. Last time I ordered from Bear Tooth, I got the 50 kit discount on my own since they do sell most of the cheaper kits I use. This is how I spent $9000 in a year... Making big orders to get discounts and to save on shipping and border fees. A bigger than normal issue for me since I'm in Canada.

I don't want to discourage a newbie too much... Just be aware... tally up your costs. $20+ kits and $10+ blanks add up fast. Don't get carried away like I did. Sure I like making pens... I like collecting them... but they are very hard for me to sell and I am feeling that my money could have been better spent. Of all the hobbies to get into... this can be a very expensive one.


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## jmbaker79 (Feb 27, 2012)

Thats why I collect Coins, only hobby that when your broke you still have money! Best Wishes!


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## wood-of-1kind (Feb 27, 2012)

Can you imagine how worst off we will if the loonie slides down against the American greenback?


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## vthowe (Feb 27, 2012)

wood-of-1kind said:


> Can you imagine how worst off we will if the loonie slides down against the American greenback?



Yeah...well, that's another story all together that is much worse than this...

Thinking maybe I should just post all my stuff for sale here and go sit in front of the computer or tv...or go collect coins.


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## SCR0LL3R (Feb 27, 2012)

wood-of-1kind said:


> Can you imagine how worst off we will if the loonie slides down against the American greenback?



Yes, In a way I guess we are lucky that our dollar has been holding relatively close to the US dollar so far. Of course for me, since most of my income from my day job is in $US, I might gain more than I lose :wink:


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## bitshird (Feb 27, 2012)

Haynie said:


> I have noticed this as well and that is why I am venturing-slowly, very slowly-into componentless pens.
> 
> When folks in these parts hear how much a certain pen will cost their eyes bug out, the local market is not going to support my hobby so I plan to start making more complicated pens so it takes longer from design to finish.  At least there will be more time between part orders.  At least my wife hopes that is the way it will be.:biggrin:



Mark, even doing component less pens is going to go up, unless you make your own nibs and clips, until we get some relief on Fuel prices, EVERY THING that has to be delivered or shipped is going to cost more, even growing your own vegies is going to cost more, and you don't want to buy any Silver for clips nor Gold for nibs.  
And as far as selling pens in a prime retirement area it's beyond hard, how many neighbors do you have under 65??


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## weasel1219 (Feb 27, 2012)

I hear your pain also and it is getting tougher and tougher to sell.  Had table at a local gun show and it had approx. 80 pens to sell half of which were bullet pens. Could only sell three of those puppies.  I too can not lower my prices.  I am retired and this is a hobby that I can do with out, only if I go back into the work force, something I am not planning to do. I had enough in the 35 years I was there.  Loved my job and the people I worked with, but not the hassles.  My biggest sales come from business people who want gifts for their clients, that is where I make enough to break even.
Hang in there, it can't get any worse...I hope!!!!


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## ed4copies (Feb 27, 2012)

In any business, it is a reasonable idea to WALK before you RUN!!

Buy "sierra-style" (from the vendor of your choice) for under $10, sometimes SUBSTANTIALLY under.  Put a half blank on the pen and sell it for $30ish.  I sold a LOT of slimlines that didn't look like slimlines--near $20 a piece (you can now buy this kit for less than $2--I can turn one in less than five minutes).

The point is, I MADE a bit of money in my first years, then reinvested and became a BETTER turner and salesman and moved UP.  I had learned to walk in the industry and TALK the vocabulary, so I was convincing and could get a better (spelled more expensive) product line.

A business plan that starts with selling Cadillacs is usually NOT the best beginning.

FWIW,

Ed


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## reiddog1 (Feb 27, 2012)

If I were in the pen making business as sole income, then yea, I think I would be pretty upset too.  I turn pens, because I love the hobby.  If I sell a pen, then it's a bonus.  To me it's kinda like golf.  People spend a lot of $ hitting a little ball around in some grass.  I would rather spend my time making pens.  Every hobby costs money whether fishing, golf, et ., at least with this one, I may make a buck or two.  Then again, I may not.  I guess, I will just have a lot of cool looking pens for myself.  My 2 pennys.

Dave


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## SCR0LL3R (Feb 27, 2012)

A Sierra cost me $14 or so to make and get to the retailer, I sell them to my couple retailers for $25... That makes me only $11, and that makes an expensive $50 slow-to-sell Sierra. Whatcha-gonna-do :/


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## JamesB (Feb 27, 2012)

ed4copies said:


> Buy "sierra-style" (from the vendor of your choice) for under $10, sometimes SUBSTANTIALLY under.  Put a half blank on the pen and sell it for $30ish.  I sold a LOT of slimlines that didn't look like slimlines--near $20 a piece (you can now buy this kit for less than $2--I can turn one in less than five minutes).


  Nice point Ed.

I gotta buy more Sierras, that's a good return.  Around here the PSI 50 cal pens do OK.  I sold some at $15 and then upped the price to $20 and sales dropped off. So $15 is my price point I guess. I try to keep it in $5 increments, maybe that's not the best thing to do.  I don't really want to make alot of 50 cals since the local market will get saturated eventually, but it's the only thing the Marines buy around here. I have a 30.06 with antler for $15 that I expected to fly out the door...not even a nibble.  One good thing is that pens make great gifts and don't most cost alot to make.
Oh yeah, and I just spent $100 last night on pen stuff too.


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## Haynie (Feb 27, 2012)

bitshird said:


> Mark, even doing component less pens is going to go up, unless you make your own nibs and clips, until we get some relief on Fuel prices, EVERY THING that has to be delivered or shipped is going to cost more, even growing your own vegies is going to cost more, and you don't want to buy any Silver for clips nor Gold for nibs.
> And as far as selling pens in a prime retirement area it's beyond hard, how many neighbors do you have under 65??



This is a tourist town so right now there are the retired and the starving.  Actually not that bad but the cost of living is very high due to location, just not a market for pens.  Bass lures yes, pens no.

I know costs will go up but with componentless pens I will be ordering nibs and feeds.  Not a component kit and blank.  Who knows I will probably eat my words the next time I go to the IAP market place.  Speaking of which, I need to go pay brooks for a some blanks.  I am such a slut.


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## Smitty37 (Feb 27, 2012)

*Hmmmm*

I don't know what went up 30% but I do know where you didn't buy it.  I wish I could raise my prices.  At any rate here is a secret --- I can send a small number of most of my lower cost kits to Canada for not much more than USA shipping and the value might even be under the trigger for your sales tax so you don't need to buy big quantities if you buy from people who will look for lowest cost shipping for you.


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## Timebandit (Feb 27, 2012)

Haynie said:


> I know costs will go up but with component-less pens I will be ordering nibs and feeds.  Not a component kit and blank.  Who knows I will probably eat my words the next time I go to the IAP market place.  Speaking of which, I need to go pay brooks for a some blanks.  I am such a slut.



So your going to make a pen with just a nib and a feed? You still need a blank, then if you want a clip, you will need to buy a clip, then you will need a converter, and if you want to make bulb or button filler, add a few more dollars in there. I have between $26-$75 worth of material into every pen i make depending on the material that i use. Sound like about how much you put into a component pen? Then add in your time, which for component-less pens is usually in the 2.5-5 hour range per pen. Then add in the extra tooling that you will need if you do not already own it. It is not cheaper to go component-less.............dont be fooled


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## ed4copies (Feb 27, 2012)

THANK YOU, Justin!!!

Good to hear someone finally say that!!!

You have EVERY RIGHT to be PROUD of your magnificent creations!!!  But, you still have to be a SALESMAN to make them make money.

For every advantage you can cite for a "kitless", I can cite an advantage of the factory made, durable metal components!!  

To each his own, but kitless is NOT the panacea some have tried to make it.


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## Haynie (Feb 27, 2012)

Timebandit said:


> Haynie said:
> 
> 
> > I know costs will go up but with component-less pens I will be ordering nibs and feeds.  Not a component kit and blank.  Who knows I will probably eat my words the next time I go to the IAP market place.  Speaking of which, I need to go pay brooks for a some blanks.  I am such a slut.
> ...



The point was to save money in the *long run* by buying less because the time between idea and completion will take much longer and using what I had on hand.

If I was going the common road traveled by most on this site who go kitless, and I may at some point, then all of what you said would apply, except for the time, but I will get to that later.  But, the time between orders would be greatly increased as the time from design to completion would *still* be longer.

I may fail horribly on my journey but what the hell an alternate road is often bumpy and takes longer to travel. I am fortunate enough to have a LOT of my chosen material just lying around waiting to be used.  When I sat down to figure this out I calculated over 200 attempts to get it right.  Since I am not inventing the light bulb that should be more than enough. 

Ok, you got me on the converter. forgot that on my list. At this point in my adventure, a nib, feed, and converter is all I need to order supply wise.  Tooling is another story but I have most of that already.  once again fortunate enough to have it hanging out not being used anymore business wise.  What I need, except for the proprietary tap, I need to complete another job set that actually pays. Pen making will be its secondary use.  I would not have even considered this if the business need did not arise first and then get me thinking.  in fact I was going to pack in the pen making all together.  Sometimes it is funny how things work out.

As for time, unlike some, this is a hobby for me and I work at my leisure. Leisure time is not charged time.  If it were, that would make this a job and I would stop doing it.  So for me my time is not a monetary factor.


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## Haynie (Feb 27, 2012)

ed4copies said:


> THANK YOU, Justin!!!
> 
> Good to hear someone finally say that!!!
> 
> ...



The problem Ed is you and Timebandit missed my point.  Sorry it was not clear.  the point was saving money in the long run.  As for being a sales man, this is a hobby.  In this area the pens aren't going to sell so I will just make fewer and put a lot more thought into design.  The thought of making a pen in 5-10 minutes seems a little silly to me.  Too much hurry for a hobby.  Yet, as a business it makes perfect sense and I commend you folks who did/do this as a business.  I was a salesman in a former life and I hated every minute of it.


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## Displaced Canadian (Feb 27, 2012)

I don't make pens for the money, I do it for fun and a way to exercise my artistic side. I also realized that for me the best value for my penmaking money was to build a better more artistic pen. It would take longer but I would get more enjoyment out of my penmaking money. About 1 or 2 months ago I decided to try to not make pens like everybody else was doing. I would also stop "sliding into third" with my pen designs. My new mantra is, less pens, better pens.


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## ed4copies (Feb 27, 2012)

Haynie said:


> ed4copies said:
> 
> 
> > THANK YOU, Justin!!!
> ...



To each his own!!

I have sold for 35 years, and enjoyed the last 20 of them.  For the first 15 years, I did it to make a living.  Then I learned to ask what the customer wanted and try to find the "perfect" solution.  Life got much better!!!  When I started doing shows, I brought this attitude to the "craft booth".  Didn't get rich, but had a LOT of fun and met some REALLY NICE people!!
I will always remember one lady who visited our booth at nearly EVERY show---never bought a thing.  Great conversation, though.

Just as much as MAKING the pens, I enjoyed getting to know the people who stopped to chat.  SOME bought---that paid the cost of the kits.+some.


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## Elvee61 (Feb 28, 2012)

My $.02:

I've just started selling, but only my "non-pens" have sold.  I sold 2 short iphone styluses (quite literally) right out of my hand at a coffee shop.  They were both made out of some "funky" acrylic cutoffs I had left over from other things.  The coffee-shop hipsters snatched them right out of my hand.  They had zero interest in my pens, though.  Who the heck actually writes these days?  It's all done on mobile phones.  

I like turning wood, but if customers only want to buy ugly styluses, then, by George, that's what I'll make.  I'm going to load up on hideous acrylic blanks and the long and short stylus kits.  I have a feeling that camo may sell well here. 

This may be a good way to unload those trimline/slimlines I have.  I'll take the clip off, slap on a stylus tip and call them "i-Pens".


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## Justturnin (Feb 28, 2012)

I really can't give you good advice here but I hope you didnt start turning pens w/ the expectation of making a living. Most strive to break even which is tough. I understand your point about higher shiping and I too add that into the cost of the kit and try to buy as many kits as I can get for the same shipping cost. 

My thoughts on the price increase may be like this and I may be WRONG so vendors set me staight.

A Vendor wants to sell a kit so they go to the maker. Maker tells them they are $X but the min order is 1000. Vendor says ok and buys them. It takes the Vendor 2 years to sell the 1000 kits and since they paid $X the price stays the same. When they are out they go to the maker for more, only this time Inflation has caught up with them and now the kits are $XX each. The Vendor buys but has to mark up the price or they will be taking a loss on each kit.

It's a sad reality and a direct result of a weaker dollar and Materals being at an all time high. As said before everything is affected by Gas prices all the way down to Mining the metals used to make the kits.

I do sell kits but not a lot nor do I really try. I maybe make 2-3 pens a month and when I do it takes me a few days total to complete one. I want everything to be perfect and take my time in every aspect I have control over. Maybe you should do like Haynie advised, move into more complex blanks, segmenting, WW Cast and other things that will actually give your pens more of a Wow factor and help to justify the cost. This will also slow your production rate down so you do not need 50 kits month to stay busy.

Also, look into making bowls, hollow forms, tops and other toys using your lathe. I make stuff like this just as busy work and use wood that I scavenge off the side of the road for it. Again, I dont make pens to make money I make them becasue I enjoy time in my shop. I work from home so being in the house 24x7 will make me crazy so I need a release and my shop is it.

Just my thoughts.  I really hope you find a balance.


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## shadrach1944 (Feb 28, 2012)

Just hang in there and try different designs on you Slim's, I started back in Oct. 2007 and have sold over 400 writing instruments(Mostly Slimlines) and started my prices @ 18.00 each and now I sell no Slim under 37.00. I assign them as "Modified SL"

Sincerely,

Raymond


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## SCR0LL3R (Feb 28, 2012)

Justturnin said:


> A Vendor wants to sell a kit so they go to the maker. Maker tells them they are $X but the min order is 1000. Vendor says ok and buys them. It takes the Vendor 2 years to sell the 1000 kits and since they paid $X the price stays the same. When they are out they go to the maker for more, only this time Inflation has caught up with them and now the kits are $XX each. The Vendor buys but has to mark up the price or they will be taking a loss on each kit.



I am sure that this is the issue at times. I also think that we are paying higher prices because the manufacturers and distributers realize how much we are willing to spend... 

For example look at the raw price of gold. Now compare that to the extra cost of an entire set of titanium nitride coated drill bits vs regular HSS bits. Titanium nitride is cheap! Yet we sometimes pay over $10 extra for 3 tiny titanium nitride plated pieces vs the same 24k gold pieces. This is just one example. 

I have seen chinese made pens that look identical to a kit that we would pay $10 for (just for the kit) and the finished pen sells to the store for $2-$3. (in very small quantities)



Justturnin said:


> .... Maybe you should do like Haynie advised, move into more complex blanks, segmenting, WW Cast and other things that will actually give your pens more of a Wow factor and help to justify the cost. This will also slow your production rate down so you do not need 50 kits month to stay busy.
> 
> Also, look into making bowls, hollow forms, tops and other toys using your lathe...



Two very good ideas and I will certainly be doing more of this!


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## scotian12 (Feb 28, 2012)

Keith...I understand where you are coming from as I sell in the same Nova Scotia market. However, I don't focus on the cost of the pen ( yes, I have to keep expenses in line with sales) but my focus is on marketing. I buy in bulk to get the discounts so my per pen cost is as low as the vendor market dictates. It has taken me 10 years to get the market I am comfortable with but like a stock portfolio the key is diversification. I sell at craft markets, have a website, sell to corporate and government buyers, sell from home and show my product to who ever sees it in my shirt pocket. I sell nothing under $30.00 in a pen and beyond $500. You have to follow the trends in our market....coffee bean and currency pens have had their day but those cute little stylus pens are in vogue now.As someone suggested,take those slim lines and sierras and convert them over to stylus. You might not make a ton of profit on them but you will decrease your inventory to make way for something current.Don't give up, just think outside the box.  Keith ...take a look at my youtube video and see how I approached the market in terms of the Bluenose II wood. Regards Darrell Eisner


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## ed4copies (Feb 28, 2012)

A word on the "cost of kits":

It is my contention that any kit we use could be made for under $5---

Here's the "catch":  Materials are cheaper in metric ton purchases, machines run for days, after the initial setup.  So, you are paying for the right to buy SMALL quantity!!

IF I go to China or Taiwan (or even the USA) and agree to purchase enough to get to the 2200 pounds of pen "material", it appears, to me that it will make about 50,000 pens.  So, if I have achieved the "economy of scale" and I can buy them for $5 ea. it will require an investment of a quarter million dollars.  AND, at my projected "best" rate, those will last me a decade or more.  

Anyone who has that kind of money and wants to become a "silent partner", let me know!!  I sure don't!!

FWIW!!!!


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## ed4copies (Feb 28, 2012)

SCR0LL3R said:


> Justturnin said:
> 
> 
> > A Vendor wants to sell a kit so they go to the maker. Maker tells them they are $X but the min order is 1000. Vendor says ok and buys them. It takes the Vendor 2 years to sell the 1000 kits and since they paid $X the price stays the same. When they are out they go to the maker for more, only this time Inflation has caught up with them and now the kits are $XX each. The Vendor buys but has to mark up the price or they will be taking a loss on each kit.
> ...



I have made exactly this argument in conversations with a major pen manufacturer!!

Again, the question comes down to volume.  IF we could sell as many pen kits (all one kind) plated in Titanium as they sell DRILL BITS (millions) plated in titanium---we could enjoy the SAME "economy of scale".

That's not gonna happen---so we have a much DIFFERENT cost structure.

(If you follow some of the threads here, you will know that at least ONE Chinese manufacturer had over a 50% failure rate when they made "titanium plated" pens--- apparently, it is NOT as "easy as it looks".)


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## SCR0LL3R (Feb 28, 2012)

"Any kit can be made for under $5"... yet some are $50+... that's a pretty steep increase to be able to buy small quantities seeing as the production runs are still probably at least in several thousand at a time... Also the raw materials used are the same for most of these kits so the manufacturers are buying big amounts. And this of course is not just on kits. 

Of course that's how the free market world works. I'm sticking to what I said earlier: We are all pen enthusiasts and we pay accordingly.


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## SCR0LL3R (Feb 28, 2012)

ed4copies said:


> I have made exactly this argument in conversations with a major pen manufacturer!!
> 
> Again, the question comes down to volume.  IF we could sell as many pen kits (all one kind) plated in Titanium as they sell DRILL BITS (millions) plated in titanium---we could enjoy the SAME "economy of scale".
> 
> ...



Yes but 10 cents (for say 3 drill bits - I'm rounding up here) vs 10 dollars (for 3 pen pieces) is absurd.


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## ed4copies (Feb 28, 2012)

SCR0LL3R said:


> "Any kit can be made for under $5"... yet some are $50+... that's a pretty steep increase to be able to buy small quantities seeing as the production runs are still probably at least in several thousand at a time... Also the raw materials used are the same for most of these kits so the manufacturers are buying big amounts. And this of course is not just on kits.
> 
> Of course that's how the free market world works. I'm sticking to what I said earlier: We are all pen enthusiasts and we pay accordingly.



You're thinking like an American.

Chinese and Taiwanese buy materials only AFTER the pen kits are sold, when you buy in "bulk".

Now, if you  would like to partner with me and YOU buy several thousand--we will see what I can achieve with the manufacturer--
I know tens of thousands of dollars in an order does NOT impress them, if we get to HUNDREDS of thousands, maybe we can get their attention!!!

I've got the time and inclination, if you have the money!!!

Even in the USA, a ten time markup for manufacturing to "retail" is not unusual.  On "very small runs", it is common.


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## diamundgem (Feb 28, 2012)

I just don't know what to say about the situation except I think gas , taxes and insurance has caused a lot of our inflation.
I remember when I got $59 for a cigar pen. I'm happy now if I can even sell one at $29.
I have several homes that I rent and even those have become unprofitable because tenants can't afford the rent; because they are spending so much on gas. My own home payment has increased $200 Mo. because of taxes and insurance.
People have told me (the one's that haven't lost their jobs) that they simply don't have money to buy anything other than gas and food.  It's really a sad situation we are in now but I can't offer any fix for it, unless it would be the gas issue.  I think lowering that back to $2.00 a gallon would help the most.  I spend $400.00 a month and I am retired.   Also, lets vote a little smarter this time


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## jd99 (Feb 28, 2012)

I started this for more or less a hobby first and to makes some cash second, My wife does jewelry so we do the craft and art show bit; so i have seen what the market is at the majority of the shows.

I decided to start making pens to sell in these shows, and knowing what price range I need to meet to sell the product, I set a maximum amount for investment of inventory, I shopped around and bought in quantity for discounts, and to keep my cost low so I make some profit for my time.

I have mostly low and mid range inventory cause I know that's what will sell right now (where I live people are hurting and not going to throw $100 at a pen), and I have a few high end pens, mainly to put on my web site and to bring to the show for that one or two customers that want that.

This appears to be working for me, I think anyone that looks at some of these web sites, and sees $300.00 pens and thinks I can do that, and sets out in that kind of mind frame will ever make it.

You first have to know your market and if the market is the low and mid range stuff figure out a way to make a profit in that range, if it is the high end stuff then good for you and I hope it works.

Ask Amazon how many $1,400.00 pens they sold. I bet none if any.
Amazon.com: Graf von Faber-Castell Elemento Limited Edition Fountain Pen: Office Products


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## ed4copies (Feb 28, 2012)

diamundgem said:


> I just don't know what to say about the situation except I think gas , taxes and insurance has caused a lot of our inflation.
> I remember when I got $59 for a cigar pen. I'm happy now if I can even sell one at $29.
> I have several homes that I rent and even those have become unprofitable because tenants can't afford the rent; because they are spending so much on gas. My own home payment has increased $200 Mo. because of taxes and insurance.
> People have told me (the one's that haven't lost their jobs) that they simply don't have money to buy anything other than gas and food.  It's really a sad situation we are in now but I can't offer any fix for it, unless it would be the gas issue.  I think lowering that back to $2.00 a gallon would help the most.  I spend $400.00 a month and I am retired.   Also, lets vote a little smarter this time




While what you say is completely true, I bought my home during the Carter administration (just for a timeline).  Got a "land contract" at 10.5 percent!!!  After all, mortgages were 16 percent.  When we speak in hundred thousand purchase, that means my "bargain" monthly payments were about $500 (old dollars) more than you are paying today.

See what that does to your "discretionary spending"!!


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## SCR0LL3R (Feb 28, 2012)

Economy issues aside. I guess I have to set myself up with some rules regarding spending on this hobby, and stick to them.

Here's a good one for me:

Rule #1: Until I sell at least 50% of any pen style I currently carry, I can NOT buy ANY more kits in that style.

I am already rationalizing 1 exception to this rule. I am doomed! This is how the addict's mind works!


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## ed4copies (Feb 28, 2012)

Dawn and I used to joke about this at the end of nearly every show!!!

We had hundreds of pens and pieces of stained glass to pack and put BACK INTO the trailer----they had come OUT of the trailer several days earlier.

WHY DIDN'T WE JUST SHOW THE PRODUCTS THAT WERE GOING TO SELL!!!

It would be SO MUCH easier!!!


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## Smitty37 (Feb 28, 2012)

*Scale volume*

Economies of Scale are much larger than some of you seem to think. My vendor can probably make 5,000/10,000 kits for the same fixed costs as he can make 100 for.  1500 to 2000 is a "small" quantity.  I believe they can do production runs of up to 30,000 at once.

The big problem with pen kits is that nobody (even those we call the "big boys") is really big and really producing in large quantities.  

With respect to the sales of finished pens...they are factory made.  If they can sell Bic's for about what it would cost me to buy the tips in 1000 lot quantities why wouldn't they be able to produce wood pens cheap.  It is like being a tailor (and there are still a few around) he'll never be able to produce a suit cheaper than the off the shell variety from Blair and you'll never produce a pen cheaper than Bic or Papermate - both you and the tailor have to give customers some reason other than price to buy from you.


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## studioso (Feb 28, 2012)

jd99 said:


> Ask Amazon how many $1,400.00 pens they sold. I bet none if any.
> Amazon.com: Graf von Faber-Castell Elemento Limited Edition Fountain Pen: Office Products




more thank you think

this pen ranks 215,819 in sales in office supplies. out of 1'745'223 items in that category.


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## Smitty37 (Feb 28, 2012)

*But what does the number mean....*



studioso said:


> jd99 said:
> 
> 
> > Ask Amazon how many $1,400.00 pens they sold. I bet none if any.
> ...


 I have seen numbers like that from Amazon but have not figured out what they mean....if all items are ranked it could indicate that it sold one item and the only items ranked below it didn't sell any and it could be "tied" with 1,500,000 other items that also sold one item.  We've all seen the lists that go 1,2,2,2,5,5,7,8,9.....


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## ed4copies (Feb 28, 2012)

Do they rank by dollars sold or units sold?

Not likely to have "ties" in dollars, VERY likely to have "ties" in units.


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## Pens By Scott (Feb 28, 2012)

I hear you, but when you compare the prices of the limited amount of supplies available up here and the prices as well, buying from the US is still cheaper than buying the same items locally.





SCR0LL3R said:


> PTsideshow said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...


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## Smitty37 (Feb 28, 2012)

*Oh.....*



ed4copies said:


> Do they rank by dollars sold or units sold?
> 
> Not likely to have "ties" in dollars, VERY likely to have "ties" in units.


 I think we disagree here Ed - with nearly 2 million items on the list, there are sure to be a lot that sell at or near the same price so a tie in units sold would probably translate to a tie in dollar volume.  Also, I would imagine a lot of that 2 million are duplicates....I can't think of anyone who could dream up 2 million completely different items (even allowing for many different brands of paper, paper clips, pens, erasures etc.) of office supplies.


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## SCR0LL3R (Feb 28, 2012)

writeitdown said:


> I hear you, but when you compare the prices of the limited amount of supplies available up here and the prices as well, buying from the US is still cheaper than buying the same items locally.


 
It's pretty close in price... I order mostly from exoticblanks.com, beartoothwoods.com and penblanks.ca . All three of which have some overlap in the products they sell as well as selling some items that the others don't. I just try and optimize each order when it's made. Quantity discounts make more price difference than anything.


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## pens by david (Feb 28, 2012)

Keith,

Sorry you are having bad luck, I started one year ago ,had to buy a lathe ,tools, kits, bushing, finishing stuff,sand paper several diff kinds ,etc,etc,etc.

If you are looking at this as a business your out lay to start is high no matter what business you go into. In my own personal business it took 3 years before we showed a profit, second business we started took 5 years to show a profit. Now both daughters and son in laws work for us  I started playing golf and have never even broken even!!!

Point being this.. if you enjoy doing what you are doing It is not the money it is the joy of creating .

I guess my take on my hobby / business is don`t try so hard. Set your price and stay with it , I have been fortunate I have made over 150 pens 100 bottle stoppers and right now down to almost nothing . Did give away I would say 10 to 15 pens and same on bottle stoppers ,from that I have gotten lots of orders for pens bottle stoppers ,this does not count the 20 I made for the troops. I now sell pens etc all over the world all buy word of mouth. 



Remember it is more gracious to give then to receive, or what goes round comes round .

Keep it fun, Hope this helps,

David In beautiful Coeur d Alene,Idaho


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## ed4copies (Feb 29, 2012)

Smitty37 said:


> ed4copies said:
> 
> 
> > Do they rank by dollars sold or units sold?
> ...



Heck, Smitty, there have to be 2 million types of copier toner!!! :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:


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## Smitty37 (Feb 29, 2012)

*Hmmm*



ed4copies said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > ed4copies said:
> ...


You might be right but who stocks all of them - not even Amazon can do that.:biggrin:  and of course 1999872 have the same price.


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