# Quality of your finish



## DozerMite (Apr 17, 2011)

I realize that most are excited about completing a pen and especially the newer turners.
However, doesn't anyone consider the final finish on their masterpiece or is it not important? I see pens that are posted in SOYP that have a beautiful fit but, the ball is dropped on the finish. Radial scratches are the most common and are extremely visible. This for me, detracts from the quality and over-all appearance of the pen.
The finish is about 75% of the impression that your work receives after the initial material attraction.
I strive to obtain a flawless finish without any defects. This is only to the naked eye without magnification. Perhaps others don't feel this is important or realize that their finish has issues. Of coarse it might just be me.

Am I just being over critical?

Discuss...


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## wouldentu2? (Apr 17, 2011)

I  do not feel you are being over critical, it is the next step in perfecting the craft.
I found it took about ten pens until I was able to get all the parts to the point I found they met my standards.

The reasons I found the rings persisted in the first pens was that I was skipping grades of sandpaper I did not possess. (Since then I have used Micro-mesh) and not stopping the lathe and sanding longitudinally.) I figured you know this since you don't have the ring problem but thought I would flesh it out in the thread.


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## ctubbs (Apr 17, 2011)

I learned in the body shop that the surface must be right for the paint to be right.  Paint never hides imperfections, it can only amplify them.  for a finish to be correct, the underlying surface must be correct first.  It is impossible to remove all scratches from a surface, but they must be made small enough and close enough together to blend into a smooth surface to be invisible to the eye or too small to feel.

Are mine always that good?  Probably not always, but that is what I strive for.  When I have been at it way too long, I may let one slip by.  I try not to, but it possibly does happen.

Turn as smooth as possible, correctly apply the necessary abrasive, then make the finish slick.  Wax will not make a poor surface great.  It will hide it for a bit, but the wax will wear off and then where are you?

Yes Dozer, I do my best to get a finish so slick tht a fly landing on it will break all 6 legs.
Charles


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## G1Pens (Apr 17, 2011)

Having only been at this for a few months, I used to concentrate on the fit and an adequate finish. But as I have gotten better with the fit, the finish is becoming more and more a focus. Often I think I have a good finish and then take my pictures of the pen and enlarge them on screen only to find a multitude of radial scratches. I go back and look at the pen in better light and sure enough I can see them with my naked eye. I recently started using a buffer and it is making a big difference.

The "perfect" finish is now my holy grail. I will continue my efforts until I find a procedure that works. I have a ways to go but I will keep trying.

To me the best fit in the world is ruined by a less than "perfect" finish.


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## seamus7227 (Apr 17, 2011)

ctubbs said:


> I do my best to get a finish so slick tht a fly landing on it will break all 6 legs.



Now thats funny! I dont care who you are!!LMAO:biggrin:


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## seamus7227 (Apr 17, 2011)

In my opinion, the finish is the "make or break" factor that may sell or not sell a pen. It says something about the artist attention to detail all the way to the end. I had been working on a "masterpiece" submission pen for the PMG for over a year. On the day of completion, I was assembling the pen and noticed hair line cracks in the resin from where something was off just enough that it bowed the blank and caused the resin to crack in certain areas around the quarter. I was sick about it. Now the average person may not have seen or noticed those flaws, but i did, and therefore could not go any further with the submission of that particular pen. So a years worth of work down the drain. But in the end, it was the learning experience that was most valuable and it pushed me to create the pen that ended up being the design of my new submission. I guess my point is, you should strive to make every pen flawless, from the fit all the way to the finish. Just my rambling .02


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## ghostrider (Apr 17, 2011)

I'm a newb, and I know that I just recently posted a pen in SYOP that fits the above description.

At my stage in the game, to me, it's a learning process. I get so annoyed when it doesn't come out right, but then I'm still learning, so I see it as a learning experience. I've been working on my finish, and am learning things. On the last pen I posted, it was not only part of my learning process for finish, but also for carving grooves in the piece, and it was mainly that part that gave me a problem (not to mention that it was my first Longwood done on a drill press that only has about 7" between the table and chuck). Considering all the new challenges I gave myself with that piece, I can live with the radial scratches, especially since it was a result of one of those challenges. 

Before that pen, I was concentrating on the finish. This time I threw in another challenge, and while the problems it caused show in the work, I still learned for the next time.

The pen I just finished tonight was simply another step in the process. I paid more attention to keeping those radial scratches out of it, but then I added trying to do more with the skew, and it caused problems that also show. 

Am I happy about it? Of course not. However, I accept it as part of the learning process, and strive to improve. 


I suppose I could go back and redo it, but then one must ask how long one wants to spend on a project that is mainly for one's own enjoyment, as well as education and skills development. There also comes the point where I have to decide if the risk of making it worse is greater than the chance of making it better. 


I'm probably going too fast. I should just get some MDF and glue some tubes in the to turn. But then, I'm having fun doing what I am. Even with some of the mistakes I make, I see most people overlooking them simply because I like to select nice pieces. When I get better, I'll select nicer pieces. 

Something else to consider is that it is a testament to how much skill is put into a pen that doesn't suffer these indignities, and it's true worth. 

I see some selling slimlines for $15, and some for $35.  I definitely won't be selling one with radial scratches for $35, and I won't be selling one with a good FnF for $15..


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## RHossack (Apr 17, 2011)

James ... don't think you're being over critical in the least.

The finish is everything to me ... it has to look good ... fit be right or it's just not going to sit right with me.


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## firewhatfire (Apr 18, 2011)

I am pretty new to this place and pen turning also(less than 2 months).  What I have learned from this place has taken years off of my learning curve to achieve a decent finish.  I have and will continue learning as much from those here willing to share secrets to the perfect product.  

It took looking at pics of 3 sold pens to really solidify my need to perfect my finish procedures.  It was scratches so much as a haze.  Which turned out to be moisture under the finish from applying to soon after cleaning the blanks between sanding and finishing.  I replaced the said 3 pens and have a customer that will be a many returns customer.

Phil


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## EricJS (Apr 18, 2011)

Radial scratches on the pen, no matter how small, have the same effect on most people as scratches on the hardware plating. That's exactly how I see them.

To me the most critical part of the production is removing all the scratches. And I'm getting better with each pen I make, thanks to a little advice I got from a pro....:biggrin:


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## PenMan1 (Apr 18, 2011)

Making a pen without adding a durable, lifetime finish is like going potty and not doing the paperwork. You can do it and it does save time. BUT, sooner or later you will regret the decision, and in the end people are going to be laughing at you.


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## OKLAHOMAN (Apr 18, 2011)

PenMan1 said:


> Making a pen without adding a durable, lifetime finish is like going potty and not doing the paperwork.
> 
> ROTFLMAO:biggrin:!


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## dgelnett (Apr 18, 2011)

When I was a kid growing up my dad was teaching me to lay bricks. Being a kid my goal was to lay the brick as quickly as my dad, I had to go faster. My dad's goal for me was to lay a straight brick. He would say don't worry about speed, that will come just do each step correct over and over. He said this to me over and over.
I think doing pens are the same, just do each step correctly, don't worry about the time. Some pens I am working on shape because the last pen did not look right. Each step is a learning experience towards a good looking pen.
Some day I could be a fast as my Dad, kinda doubt it.


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## Andrew_K99 (Apr 18, 2011)

I am pretty new around here but have noticed the same thing.  I have even seen people trying to sell them!!  I just thought I was being too much of a perfectionist or something.  I had some radial marks on my first few pens but I still have those hidden away and have written those off as practice; i'd never sell them or even give them away unless I was happy with them.  I wouldn't want to start off with a bad reputation of having poorly finished pens out there.

AK


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## Russianwolf (Apr 18, 2011)

PenMan1 said:


> Making a pen without adding a durable, *lifetime* finish is like going potty and not doing the paperwork. You can do it and it does save time. BUT, sooner or later you will regret the decision, and in the end people are going to be laughing at you.



So what have you found that the rest of us haven't. Even CA wears, nothing lasts a lifetime.

As far as finishing goes. A glossy, perfectly smooth finish looks great on some pieces, but detracts from others. I hate it when I see an Irish Bog Oak done like that. It hides the texture or the wood too much in my opinion. Also couldn't imagine putting a CA finish (or even my lacquer finishes) on an Ivory pen.


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## nativewooder (Apr 18, 2011)

Any scratches that you see in the finish are due, usually, to a half-a$$ed attempt at sanding.  Read some of the late Russ Fairfield's pieces on proper sanding and you'll be surprised how easy that slick, shiney, mirrored finish is to attain.


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## JimB (Apr 18, 2011)

I'm going to take the other side and say yes, you are being a bit overly critical. SOYP is not just for the perfect pens. There is a wide range of experience and skills represented here on IAP and SOYP is for everyone. Just because someone has mastered the 'fit" part of pen making doesn't mean they have mastered the 'finish' part. The finishing is a learning experience just like everything else and is learned with time and experience. 

I think some of the comments in this thread will only discourage less experienced folks from posting in SOYP.


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## Nick (Apr 18, 2011)

JimB said:


> I'm going to take the other side and say yes, you are being a bit overly critical. SOYP is not just for the perfect pens. There is a wide range of experience and skills represented here on IAP and SOYP is for everyone. Just because someone has mastered the 'fit" part of pen making doesn't mean they have mastered the 'finish' part. The finishing is a learning experience just like everything else and is learned with time and experience.
> 
> I think some of the comments in this thread will only discourage less experienced folks from posting in SOYP.



Jim you are spot on with your comments. New turners are proud of their work as well they should be. New turners are posting so all could see their work, the finish may not be up to what it could be but that will come with time and experience. We should be encouraging them. Dosermite, IMHO you are being far too critical with your comments. Possibly you could share your process of getting to the perfect finish, new turners would benifit from your input.


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## jttheclockman (Apr 19, 2011)

When someone comes up with the perfect finish I want to see it 

Don't see the point in the question. I would think everyone strives for a great finish but as some have said finishing is a learning experience and it comes with time. Some people are better at it than others but does not mean they are not trying. Hopefully some of the pointers here will help those. Finishing acrylics and finishing wood have some similar characteristics but are also worlds apart. So the learning curve is great. That is great if you can achieve what you call perfection. Us others are trying to get there for sure.


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## ctubbs (Apr 19, 2011)

John, I have stated before and say it again, If I ever do make the perfect finish/pen, That is when I'll pull the plug on all my equipment, frame the pen and just watch it for the rest of my life.  Just because that is what I strive for has nothing to do with what I expect to do.
Charles


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## jttheclockman (Apr 19, 2011)

ctubbs said:


> John, I have stated before and say it again, If I ever do make the perfect finish/pen, That is when I'll pull the plug on all my equipment, frame the pen and just watch it for the rest of my life. Just because that is what I strive for has nothing to do with what I expect to do.
> Charles


 

I tell you what, I will bring the beer and we both can watch it. :biggrin:


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## ctubbs (Apr 19, 2011)

jttheclockman said:


> ctubbs said:
> 
> 
> > John, I have stated before and say it again, If I ever do make the perfect finish/pen, That is when I'll pull the plug on all my equipment, frame the pen and just watch it for the rest of my life. Just because that is what I strive for has nothing to do with what I expect to do.
> ...


Deal!!!!:biggrin:  However, with my talent, I wouldn't hold my breath!:frown:
Charles


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## ghostrider (Apr 19, 2011)

JimB said:


> I'm going to take the other side and say yes, you are being a bit overly critical. SOYP is not just for the perfect pens. There is a wide range of experience and skills represented here on IAP and SOYP is for everyone. Just because someone has mastered the 'fit" part of pen making doesn't mean they have mastered the 'finish' part. The finishing is a learning experience just like everything else and is learned with time and experience.
> 
> I think some of the comments in this thread will only discourage less experienced folks from posting in SOYP.


I guess people are going to take it the way they want.

Is it being "snobbish", or is it, "raising the bar"?

I know there were terrible radial scratches on the last one I posted, but considering the other accomplishments in that pen, it didn't bother me because I knew that I'd eventually get around to learning that part of the art. 

I think there is an underlying point to this whole thread. Those pics of lesser quality only emphasize the better quality of the others.


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## G1Pens (Apr 19, 2011)

I think what matters is whether the artist posting their pen thinks they have a perfect pen or not....and only they know that. I believe that most of us who post our pens know the finish and sometimes the fit can be improved. However, I am proud of the pens I do. Each one is a step forward and I want to share. I also want input (but that's a whole other thread). Anyway its SOYP not SOYPP (Show Off Your Perfect Pen). I will continue to post my pens as I complete them and I hope everyone else will as well. I like seeing the progress us newbies make and I like to see the pens that the experienced pros make.

As long as we realize that our pens are not perfect, I think it is all good.


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