# ? Dead Center for Beall Chuck ?



## kirkfranks (Dec 14, 2009)

Ok so I am thinking about making the switch to Turning Between Centers.
I will need a dead center but would rather have one with a straight back end to use in the Beall Chuck instead of a morse taper.  On my lathe I notice much better "trueness" using the chuck vs. the taper.  
So does anyone make such a dead center?

I would also like a small steb center with the same arrangement if possible.

So send me your suggestions and links.


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## johnnycnc (Dec 14, 2009)

I have a parallel situation in that I don't like to remove my 3 jaw chuck from my metal lathe, as it is used most every day, and takes a while to dial back in
once reinstalled.
I discovered that the Beall collet chuck with 1"-8 threads will go in the three jaw, and runs pretty true. 
so, I faced the same question, and here is what I found..
My dead center, MT2, has a cylindrical portion behind the point angle. 
This was a bit of a aha moment for me, I did not realize this until recently.
it is not very long, but long enough to register reasonably true for me. 
The next issue was collet size, i looked and found a Parlec 18mm at MSC that is just the right size for this.It is marked ER32-0708.
I really like this arrangement, as it gives me maximum flexibility.:biggrin:
You may consider trying a good dead center directly in the spindle taper socket, it may be better than your mandrel arbor..


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## leehljp (Dec 14, 2009)

Kirk,

Is it possible for you to try making your own from Aluminum or Brass? My first Dead Center three years ago was from Aluminum and it was not even 60°. It was made for a Drill chuck but making it for a Beall would not be much different.

http://www.penturners.org/photos/images/940/1_Dead_drive_1.jpg

If I had taken a little more time, I could have cleaned it up and made it look nicer. But it still worked much better than the mandrel for me.


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## kirkfranks (Dec 15, 2009)

Hank,
Your first mandrel was already in my mind as a backup plan.  So far it looks like it may be the way to go.  My only concern was durability, but at least I will be able to see if I like TBC.

My thinking is that if I use a 3/4 shaft then I can turn the blank to round and drill with the Beall chuck, and the dead center will use the same ER insert so I won't have to change out all the time.


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## leehljp (Dec 15, 2009)

Hey,

When are you coming back? It was a year ago last week when you were last here!


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## jleiwig (Dec 15, 2009)

kirkfranks said:


> Hank,
> Your first mandrel was already in my mind as a backup plan. So far it looks like it may be the way to go. My only concern was durability, but at least I will be able to see if I like TBC.
> 
> My thinking is that if I use a 3/4 shaft then I can turn the blank to round and drill with the Beall chuck, and the dead center will use the same ER insert so I won't have to change out all the time.


 
That is so freaky!  I was just thinking about this last night.  What about someone taking an MT3 dead center and turning it down straight? The smallest diameter on an MT3 dead center is .778 inches, so you could theoretically turn it down to .75 inches straight across, and then you could still have a carbide tipped dead center.   How much John?


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## jleiwig (Dec 15, 2009)

http://www.grizzly.com/products/Carbide-Tipped-Lathe-Center-MT3/H7968

That's the MT3 carbide tipped dead center.  It's only 9.95 plus shipping.  Not sure if it's hardened, but if not it should be easy for someone with a large metal lathe to turn into a straight 3/4" dead center.


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## kirkfranks (Dec 15, 2009)

OK Johnny you have been challenged :wink:
I don't know how you would hold this to turn it down but if you want to try I will be your tester customer.



jleiwig said:


> http://www.grizzly.com/products/Carbide-Tipped-Lathe-Center-MT3/H7968
> 
> That's the MT3 carbide tipped dead center.  It's only 9.95 plus shipping.  Not sure if it's hardened, but if not it should be easy for someone with a large metal lathe to turn into a straight 3/4" dead center.


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## arioux (Dec 15, 2009)

Wonder if this could be adapted?
http://www.pennstateind.com/store/LCENTQC58.html


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## kirkfranks (Dec 15, 2009)

Hank the way the company thinks about travel this year I think you will retire back to the states before I get back to Japan:frown:



leehljp said:


> Hey,
> 
> When are you coming back? It was a year ago last week when you were last here!


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## johnnycnc (Dec 15, 2009)

kirkfranks said:


> OK Johnny you have been challenged :wink:
> I don't know how you would hold this to turn it down but if you want to try I will be your tester customer.



I concede.:biggrin: 
I don't know how, and not sure I want to know, how to hold it !
(looks like a big pain..)


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## jleiwig (Dec 16, 2009)

johnnycnc said:


> I concede.:biggrin:
> I don't know how, and not sure I want to know, how to hold it !
> (looks like a big pain..)


 
Lathe dog and a steady rest maybe?


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## Paul in OKC (Dec 16, 2009)

kirkfranks said:


> OK Johnny you have been challenged :wink:
> I don't know how you would hold this to turn it down but if you want to try I will be your tester customer.



I'll do it, if you want to give it a go.


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## jleiwig (Dec 16, 2009)

Paul in OKC said:


> I'll do it, if you want to give it a go.


 
PM with a price and we can talk.  In another thread I offered to send two.  One for me and one for who ever turned them down to keep.


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## rjwolfe3 (Dec 16, 2009)

Paul if you do one - let me know and I will either pay for one or provide you a few to experiment with.


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## kirkfranks (Dec 16, 2009)

Hey this is my thread. I should get automatic to front of the list.
Lord knows how long his lists can get
Yes Paul I would be interested.  You can PM me a price if you don't want to get public yet.


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## leehljp (Dec 16, 2009)

I am behind Kirk! I am behind Kirk! :biggrin: I would like one or two! I always like to have a backup on hand!


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## dennisg (Dec 16, 2009)

I would like to be on the ground floor of this historical happening. Please add me to the list.


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## Paul in OKC (Dec 17, 2009)

kirkfranks said:


> Hey this is my thread. I should get automatic to front of the list.
> Lord knows how long his lists can get
> Yes Paul I would be interested.  You can PM me a price if you don't want to get public yet.



Email sent. Let's see what it takes to get one done before going public:wink:


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## kirkfranks (Dec 17, 2009)

:bananen_smilies104:


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## Jim Smith (Dec 17, 2009)

Count me in at well please.  Carbide tipped if there is a choice.

Jim Smith


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## titan2 (Dec 17, 2009)

Yep, you can put me down for one also if this takes off!!!


Barney


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## Paul in OKC (Dec 30, 2009)

OK. I am jumping the gun a smidge here, but I will be sending Kirk's center out today. Doable, yes. Very simple, not. I will do some checking on ordering centers and the shipping to me and all that to come up with a price, but it will be in the $35-40 range. That is for a #3 center (carbide tipped) turned down to 3/4 diameter.  So...........


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## rjwolfe3 (Dec 30, 2009)

Paul I will be looking for one in Feb with my tax return. Have we figured out the Steb center yet to go into the collet chuck?


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## Paul in OKC (Dec 30, 2009)

*pic*

Here is a pic. Kirk, I will send you another email before sending this. I have one main concern in that the length of the shaft even at turned diameter will only go back to the end of the spindle. Nice to have a long center, but if there is any runout in the collet chuck, it will be magnified the farther out the center is. That said, it can be shortened. If I use a #2 taper, it will go in as far as it is turned, maybe increasing versatility. It would end up at about 1/2" diameter. Just my thoughts.


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## kirkfranks (Dec 30, 2009)

Ok Paul
On my setup I measure about 2.6" from the "face" of the collet chuck nut to where the center will bottom out on the spindle.
Actually on my lathe with a #1 size spindle and I use an adapter in the chuck which is a PSI chuck so that may be different than other folks would get with a Beall and #2 spindle.


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## Paul in OKC (Dec 30, 2009)

Thanks, Kirk. (email replied) With a #2 it wont be much different because the mouth of the taper is around .7-ish. I will get this on the way tomorrow and we'll see what it looks like!


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## jack barnes (Jan 2, 2010)

Paul this is what I use, it was given to me an I can't find another one, can you duplicate it. It is 1/2" SS 

Jack


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## Paul in OKC (Jan 2, 2010)

jack barnes said:


> Paul this is what I use, it was given to me an I can't find another one, can you duplicate it. It is 1/2" SS
> 
> Jack



I had a thought about making some like that with drill rod and heat treating the tips.


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## hunter-27 (Jan 2, 2010)

Can't you all just keep doing it the hard way and quit costing me money? :biggrin::wink:


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## jack barnes (Jan 2, 2010)

Paul if you do I'll gladly take a couple off you hands.

jack


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## leehljp (Jan 2, 2010)

Paul,

When you finalize the design and decide to offer them for sale, please post a note about this.

Thanks!


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## BigguyZ (Jan 4, 2010)

I don't even have a collet chuck (yet), but I'm definitely interested in this once I do!


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## fernhills (Jan 6, 2010)

I would be interested as well.  Carl


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## Paul in OKC (Jan 8, 2010)

Ok, just trying to find that spare time I misplaced! Got a couple of other projects to finish, and then........................................


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## turbowagon (Jan 8, 2010)

Since there seems to be a big interest for these, wouldn't it be more cost effective to have them CNC machined?  The shape is so simple, and they could be made in several diameters to fit the different collet sizes:  5/8" and 3/4" for example.


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## JeffinWIS (Jan 10, 2010)

Although not carbide, it's relatively easy(metal lathe) to turn a 60* point on a hardened dowel pin.  Cheap, and they last quite a while.  Simple to return the point when needed.


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## workinforwood (Jan 10, 2010)

JeffinWIS said:


> Although not carbide, it's relatively easy(metal lathe) to turn a 60* point on a hardened dowel pin.  Cheap, and they last quite a while.  Simple to return the point when needed.



That's what I keep thinking.  I'm not understanding the entire need in the first place.  Sure the Beall is good, the PSI is good, but if you simply clean  your taper and insert a proper center in the spindle you should have less run out than with a chuck, because the chuck sticks out from the head.  The further it is out the more run out, and you can never get the run out to zero because the simple fact that a mass of metal spinning way out there off the head is going to cause a centrifical wobble, even if the wobble is miniscule it will be more than a center in a spindle.  The whole idea to me makes me think of using scissors to cut holes in paper to go in a binder when you could use a 3 hole punch.  But..if you just insist you have to do it, 3/4 tool steel seems like the only good choice.  It's cheap and it's heavy duty and it's already pretty straight, so you just need a little truing cut and then to cut the point.  If you drop a carbide point it will break.  If you drop a steel point you can re-tune it even with just using a file on your wood lathe. So..I don't understand why the sudden need for trying to re-invent an existing tool with something that requires more labour and has potential for more error.


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## Texatdurango (Jan 10, 2010)

In my mind, it's all about convenience and fun! 


I enjoy making pens and enjoy trying different things. I started turning pens with a Jet mini lathe, a pen mandrel, a few gouges and a couple of kits from Woodcraft and had never heard of a closed end mandrel. Now I have two wood lathes, a metal lathe and a ton of lathe accessories and tools, many of which are highly specialized and have been looking at a CNC mill. If one were to see my shop they would ask... WHY do you have all these tools..... just to make pens? (Actually, my wife asks that very question now and then after the UPS truck leaves) :biggrin:

When everyone was happy drilling their pen blanks on a drill press, someone started drilling their blanks on the lathe claiming better accuracy and convenience and the “battle lines” were drawn and ever since, everyone has been busy *convincing others why their method is the “correct” way and that the “new way” is just a waste of time and requires more tools to do the simple task of drilling a hole.*

When everyone was happy turning their pen blanks on mandrels, someone came up with the idea of just modifying the bushings and turning the blanks themselves between two 60 degree centers and doing away with the mandrels all together. Again, “battle lines” were drawn and some people spend their time trying to *convince others that their method is the “correct” way and that the "new way" is just a waste of time and requires more tools to do the simple task of turning blanks.*

The way I see it, if one wants to square a blank using a hand saw and a hand plane to smooth it up then drilling the blank using a hand drill with the blank held between their knees or in a table vice or simply held with a pair of pliers then that is their business. *BUT, there are more convenient ways of doing the job, it just requires a few more tools!*

If one wants to mount their blanks side by side on a mandrel then turning them using “standard” bushings, then that is their business. *BUT, there are more convenient ways of doing the job, it just requires a few more tools!*

If one wants to keep their Beall chuck mounted from start to finish, the entire time they are turning a blank round, drilling the blank on the lathe, turning the blank between centers, then sanding and finishing the blank by simply using a few extra tools then so be it, it’s their business. *It’s just a matter of a more convenient way of doing the job, it just requires a few more tools!*

But as usual, lines are being drawn in the sand once again as some are trying to *convince others why their method is the “correct” way and that the "new way" is just a waste of time and requires more tools to do the simple task of turning blanks between centers.*

Why can’t all of the above situations be just a simple matter of choice with no right way and no wrong way? Why can’t it be just because some of us like gadgets, we like tools and we enjoy making pens…. Our own way?

I just don’t get why some people worry so much about how others make their pens and what tools they use to get the job done. I’m sure if someone would post about a new spray booth they installed in their shop to apply nice lacquer finishes, some would argue that they can apply just as good of a finish using CA and a paper towel!


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## hunter-27 (Jan 10, 2010)

Texatdurango said:


> In my mind, it's all about convenience and fun!


 
My guess is that, in your mind, there all these crazy monsters running around looking for a way to escape and start raising havoc with all the rest of us. :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::wink:


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## workinforwood (Jan 10, 2010)

It's a reasonable argument and discussion George, up until the implied point that I would be worried about the choices that someone else would make.  I did not say that you can't do it this way.  I do not have sleepless nights over how anyone makes whatever they might make. I only speak up because the conversation towards a difference of opinion doesn't happen, then people come along and have only one side of the story.  I would not say it can't be done any way you want to do it, but I would say to think about all your options and weigh all the facts through before you decide wether you need to jump into a new thing.  Spending money on a tool that you don't need is certainly a persons right, but people have the right also to know that they may be wasting their money too.


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## Texatdurango (Jan 10, 2010)

Jeff, My post was not directed AT YOU so don't take everything I say as personal because several comments and examples may not apply to you at all. I posted my comments based on what was said in the 39 posts in this thread as well as comments made elsewhere and over the years about almost any change to the established way of doing things.

The only thing I would say to you directly in regards to a comment in your previous post... _"I'm not understanding the entire need in the first place"_ is that perhaps you don't need to understand something just because somoene else wants to try it.

I have heard similar arguments to yours when someone starts a thread about buying a metal lathe. Eventually someone will pop up with something similar to_...."I'm not understanding the entire need in the first place, you can buy all the parts you need to make a pen, why make your own, lathes are just an added expense"._

By the way, in the past few days I have turned three pens so far from start to finish with my Beall chuck mounted and I like the convenience of not swapping tools in and out a dozen times so for me your comment... _"Spending money on a tool that you don't need"_ doesn't apply.  See how this works, not every comment is directed at an individual as I'm sure you didn't direct that comment to me!

It's all good, we just see things differently.


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