# CA finish vs Friction polish



## JRK (Mar 1, 2019)

I was wondering which finish is better.  CA or Friction Polish?  

I am very new to this and I've been following a finishing technique that I saw on you tube.

150, 240, 320, 400, 600 sandpaper.  EEE Ultra shine.  Micro Mesh from 1500 to 12000.  Sanding sealer, two coats of friction polish, and carnuba wax.

I am not a fan of CA.  I used it in model airplane construction.  Using CA has caused a burning sensation in my nose and eyes.  

I have a lot of scrap maple that I have been using to make blanks.  I was wondering if there is way to make it darker on the lathe before applying the finish.

Thanks

Jerry


----------



## JimB (Mar 1, 2019)

That depends on what you mean by 'better'. In general terms, many Friction Polishes don’t hold up very well to the constant handling of the pen. A CA finish will last many many years. On the other hand many people feel a friction polish leaves a more natural feel and a CA finish feels like plastic. There are also other choices for finishes.

When using CA you should either use a dust collector to pull the fumes away or have a fan to blow them away. You should not be breathing the CA fumes. Most people have the same issue you describe. There are also odorless brands of CA that help reduce these issue.


----------



## Lenny (Mar 1, 2019)

There are CA glues available with low odor, such as BSI.  I did a few pens with a friction polish. Potential customers would pick them up and ask why they looked dull compared to the other ones. 
Have you had any issues using EEE (Tripoli) under a sanding sealer? 
Another method you could try is Les Elm's dipping method.


----------



## monophoto (Mar 1, 2019)

"Better" is a subjective term.  Everyone has a different idea of what is better.


I don't especially like the usual high gloss appearance and plasticy feel associated with CA.  Instead, I prefer a softer gloss and the tactile feel of wood - which I get with a friction polish.


But I don't use a shellac-based friction polish.  Shellac can look nice when it is first applied, but it degrades over time.  Instead, I use a lacquer-based friction polish.  I make my own from lacquer, lacquer thinner, and tung oil, but there are a few commercial products on the market including PSI's house-brand friction polish (which is actually a William Woodwrite product).


----------



## leehljp (Mar 1, 2019)

Friction Polish and wax - they wear OFF. regular re-application of  waxing is necessary. If you like that look, that is OK. 

Most people who get into pen turning from flat work or bowl turning do not see a difference between those arts vs (wood) pen making. But there is a fundamental difference between flat work, bowl turning vs pens that requires some examination/thinking.

Do you want your pens to have stained hand grim on it 6 months to a year down the road? Bowls and furniture are not handled 5 to 10 times a day, often with caustic sweaty palms, placed in caustic humid shirt pockets, or into pants pockets with change or a purse with loose whatever. They are not left in vehicles that get 130° heat in the summer or taken from a warm environment to freezing temps in a matter of seconds. Pens ARE!

That is the difference that pens go through that bowls and fine woodworking / flat furniture do not. Do not expect the same finishes to protect pens the same way they do bowls and flatwork. 

That said, French polish, other finishes, waxes look good on pens. But don't expect it to do the same - different friction polishes give different results too. There are people here that keep their pens exquisite and keep them clean. This happens more with the more expensive pens and particularly with fountain pens - when the prices begin to sell above the $500.00 - $1000.00 range. (People who pay those prices value their pens and will usually go to the trouble of cleaning them at least weekly and often daily., but people with lesser priced pens very rarely do.)


There are other finishes, but they take time - some polyurethanes, some epoxies, some lacquers, and others. Each has its own positive characteristics and its own drawbacks. 

CA is a fast finish and is hard and durable. And you have run into the problem with CA that many have - CA allergies. I applied CA for 2 years and suddenly I developed a severe allergy within a matter of a few weeks. I tried other lasting finishes. I loved that I could make a pen in an hour or so and finish it in 15 - 30 minutes with a hard glass shine with CA, but with the other finishes, suddenly it was 30 - 45 minutes on a pen and 24 hours to finish. The disproportion made me re-think my finish. Some finishes cure/dry enough in 30 minutes to touch, but require 24 hours to cure enough to handle regularly.

There are several people here, and one in particular (Manupropria), who takes about a month on the "finish" of a pen, but he starts maybe six or a dozen or so a day. 

As for me, I tried different finishes and finally came up with the need for a respirator and a Dust Collection system on my lathe. Between those two, I circumvented the CA allergies and could continue my CA finish. I still like lacquer in some circumstances, mainly when I get a whim to do it that way. :wink:

It comes down to what YOU want to do and the results that you are willing to accept. I am offering some very basic insights on the positives and negatives of different finishes.

I second what Louie and Lenny wrote above and I didn't cover those. They are right on!


----------



## JRK (Mar 1, 2019)

Lenny said:


> There are CA glues available with low odor, such as BSI.  I did a few pens with a friction polish. Potential customers would pick them up and ask why they looked dull compared to the other ones.
> Have you had any issues using EEE (Tripoli) under a sanding sealer?
> Another method you could try is Les Elm's dipping method.



Sorry, I have only made four pens so far.  I don't know enough to answer your question.

Can you elaborate on Les Elm's dipping method?

Thanks

Jerry


----------



## wood-of-1kind (Mar 1, 2019)

JRK said:


> Lenny said:
> 
> 
> > There are CA glues available with low odor, such as BSI.  I did a few pens with a friction polish. Potential customers would pick them up and ask why they looked dull compared to the other ones.
> ...




See Library article below:
http://content.penturners.org/library/techniques/pen_finish_dipping_method.pdf


----------



## DENO (Mar 1, 2019)

*pen (arrow) dip*

https://youtu.be/p5hljaZd1Zw much more time effect & finish


----------



## monophoto (Mar 1, 2019)

Jerry 

CA and Friction Polish are types of finish.  Dipping is a method of applying a finish.  

CA and friction polishes are typically (perhaps always) applied by wiping the rotating piece with bit of paper towel that has had a drop or two of the finish on it.  This results in a very thin, but relatively smooth application of finish.  To build up a finish that can withstand handling, it is necessary to use repeated applications.  And in the specific case of a friction polish, heat from friction causes the additional applications of finish to bond to earlier applications.

Dipping is an alternate way to apply a finish that puts a lot of finish on the turning in one step.  As the name implies, the turning is dipped into a container of finish.  In the case of pens, one end of the turning is plugged to prevent finish from getting inside the tube, and a dowel is inserted into the other end that acts as a handle.  Using the handle, the turning is then dipped into a container of finish - I think this is most often done with polyurethane or some other form of varnish.  Obviously, the causes a lot of finish to be applied to the turning, and to prevent drips and other undesirable localized buildup, the turning is inserted through a hole in a sheet of rubber that acts as a squeegee to smooth the finish and remove any excess before it is hung up to dry.

Another application method is rotisserie finishing.  In this case, a finish such as polyurethane is applied with a brush to a rotating turning.  This puts a lot of finish on the turning, but rather than wiping or squeegeeing off the excess, it is left on the turning.  However, the turning is also left on the rotating lathe where the continuous rotation and minor vibration has a self-leveling effect on the finish to prevent drips.  This approach is sometimes used by pepper-mill turners, but I have experimented with it on pens.  A key requirement is that the lathe used in finishing must be capable of operating at fairly slow speeds - typically in the 10-50 r/min range.  Some people build specialized contraptions to serve as finishing rotisseries.

My suggestion is that if you are just starting the pen turning journey, you should stick with wipe-on methods using CA, friction polish or WOP.  Dipping and rotisserie finishing are advanced methods that take specialized equipment, and a lot of practice to learn.


----------



## Edgar (Mar 1, 2019)

I put a few drops of teak oil a paper towel & apply that to the blank when I want to darken it’s texture a little. You can use other oils such as walnut oil or boiled linseed oil (BLO).

Sometimes I use a very light coating & sometimes I use a heavier coating, just depends on the effect I want.

I sand first, then apply oil, let it dry, the.n apply whatever finish I want.


----------



## dogcatcher (Mar 1, 2019)

I will answer the dye question.  Maple can be dyed with just about any type of dye, I prefer Fiebings Leather dye, it comes in all colors and if you mix colors the colors are unlimited.  The pic is an example.


----------



## TonyL (Mar 1, 2019)

> https://youtu.be/p5hljaZd1Zw much more time effect & finish



This looks like a excellent process and alternative to CA.


----------



## JRK (Mar 1, 2019)

leehljp said:


> Friction Polish and wax - they wear OFF. regular re-application of  waxing is necessary. If you like that look, that is OK.
> 
> Most people who get into pen turning from flat work or bowl turning do not see a difference between those arts vs (wood) pen making. But there is a fundamental difference between flat work, bowl turning vs pens that requires some examination/thinking.
> 
> ...



So it seems that CA is best at least in my mind based on your reply.   I was hoping not.  lol

I guess it comes down to what each person finds important.   To me the most important thing is the durability, and secondly how long it takes to apply.  Sounds like CA is the best for this.  So I will give it a try soon.

Just hope I don't get myself glued to the pen like I did with a RC plane wing years ago.

I may at some point try the dipping and arrow finish methods as well.

Thanks

Jerry


----------



## Timber Ripper (Mar 1, 2019)

TonyL said:


> > https://youtu.be/p5hljaZd1Zw much more time effect & finish
> 
> 
> 
> This looks like a excellent process and alternative to CA.



I like this dip and squeegee off the excess idea but does it remove to much of the coating? Kinda like when you squeegee water from your windshield and its 99% dry?
Is it recommended to punch out a larger hole for larger diameter pen bodies?
Typically, how many coats are needed to achieve a deep luster? 
Curious as I'd like to give this method a try.

-Anthony


----------



## leehljp (Mar 1, 2019)

Oh the conundrums of pen turning. Making a pen is rather quick and gives rather quick self satisfaction in accomplishment! Then climbing the hill to close to perfection is like golf: the harder you try the worse you get! :biggrin:

Making a pen is rather quick, but waiting 24 hours for a finish is a horrible pill for most in the early stages of pen turning. Waxes are quick but wear off quickly! Polishes take time to cure, as do others. 

Basically this is like wanting your cake and eating it too. 

*Quick (an hour or so): Waxes or CA, but Long lasting CA

24 hours: most finishes. Louie has a good recipe for a good polish. 

Deep shine: CA, Lacquer, some epoxies or plastic resin. Epoxies and plastic resins need to be cast on the turned blank.*

I do finish some with no shine, but usually when someone wants that. 

As Louie mentioned earlier, lacquer polish has a great sheen without the overt shine. There is a way to do that with CA - use steel wool.

The thicker the finish, the better the protection. 

Back to your basic question: An hour or two at the most: - CA or wax polish.


----------



## dogcatcher (Mar 1, 2019)

There is no answer one that is good for everyone.  Some people do not like the plastic looking shine of CA, they prefer a natural look on wood.  

The rules of finishes is easy, it starts with a perfect sanding job, it ends when you are happy.  I have never met a woodturner that is happy with his finish, he/she is always looking for a better finish.  If you are looking for perfection, you will never quit looking.  

My choice of material was wood, in my area people preferred the look of wood, and preferred a natural looking finish.  For them the best finish for a wood pen with a natural look and feel is a multiple application of one of the oil finishes.  Research "Frank Whiton Classic Gunstock Finish".  That is a version of what my method was.


----------



## Miss Lucinder (Mar 1, 2019)

You pays yo money and takes yo choice


----------



## BKelley (Mar 1, 2019)

This ole horse has been ridden almost to the glue factory, but then we’d have to decide what type glue to make.  CA and friction finnishes both have good and bad points.  One thing not mentioned is brittleness.  A pen with CA out in cold weather and  dropped on hard concrete might crack.  On the other hand a friction finish might become grimely and grundgy with time.  Repairing the CA finish will be quite a job.  Restoring the friction finish is a matter of only cleaning up the pen with a high quality wax.  Will the CA finish ever crack,  will the friction finish ever become grimely?  It depends on the customer and how he uses & cares for his pen.  That’s where we as the seller come in.  Advise the customer of what type finish the pen has and instruct him accordingly

Ben


----------



## monophoto (Mar 2, 2019)

Miss Lucinder said:


> You pays yo money and takes yo choice






Exactly - they make Fords and Chevys so buyers have a choice.  Personally, I drive a Subaru.


Or saying it differently - boxers versus briefs.  :wink:


----------



## Henry (Mar 2, 2019)

Has anyone tried UV cured finishes on pens? I’m interested as to how. Thanks


Sent from my iPhone using Penturners.org mobile app


----------



## madara (Mar 2, 2019)

Lenny said:


> There are CA glues available with low odor, such as BSI.  I did a few pens with a friction polish. Potential customers would pick them up and ask why they looked dull compared to the other ones.
> Have you had any issues using EEE (Tripoli) under a sanding sealer?
> Another method you could try is Les Elm's dipping method.





Where can I learn more about this dipping method?


Sent from my iPad using Penturners.org mobile app


----------



## leehljp (Mar 2, 2019)

madara said:


> Lenny said:
> 
> 
> > There are CA glues available with low odor, such as BSI.  I did a few pens with a friction polish. Potential customers would pick them up and ask why they looked dull compared to the other ones.
> ...



http://content.penturners.org/library/techniques/lacquer_dipping.pdf

(It is in our Library here: Library Index - International Association of Penturners  under "Finishing"


----------



## rd_ab_penman (Mar 2, 2019)

Updated version of my Pen Finish Dipping Method.

Les


----------



## Lenny (Mar 2, 2019)

monophoto said:


> Miss Lucinder said:
> 
> 
> > You pays yo money and takes yo choice
> ...



One could interpolate from that ^^^ that you are going commando.  ??? :wink:


----------

