# How to Make Watch Pens



## Tomspens

Does anyone know how to make a watch pen (please explain steps in detail)


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## aggromere

what is a watch pen, do you have a link to one


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## fernhills

Do you mean pocket watch.  If so Russ Fairfield has a tutorial on it.


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## rjwolfe3

Are you referring to a cast watch part pen?


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## Skye

rjwolfe3 said:


> Are you referring to a cast watch part pen?



Thats my guess.


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## Gary Max

Well heck---that's a easy one.
Buy a bunch of old watchs and take them apart.
Then you stick the parts on a tube---cast over it--- then turn it to match the bushing.
Nothing to it.
I have been working for two weeks on one blank after spending months taking watches apart.


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## Russianwolf

Gary Max said:


> Well heck---that's a easy one.
> 
> I have been working for two weeks on one blank after spending months taking watches apart.



Or you could go the easy route.....

http://cgi.ebay.com/Steampunk-Watch...421689595?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0#ht_649wt_1026

It's called Steampunk jewelry, they love watch parts and keys and what not found objects.


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## jtdesigns

I would write a tutorial but...............I don't want to start any crap.:biggrin:



Anyone can PM me I will give you some insight!!


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## PenMan1

I'd tell you...but it's trademarked.


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## glycerine

Gary Max said:


> Well heck---that's a easy one.
> Buy a bunch of old watchs and take them apart.
> Then you stick the parts on a tube---cast over it--- then turn it to match the bushing.
> Nothing to it.
> I have been working for two weeks on one blank after spending months taking watches apart.


 
Have you tried the hammer method?!


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## johnnycnc

jtdesigns said:


> I would write a tutorial but...............I don't want to start any crap.:biggrin:
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone can PM me I will give you some insight!!



Awesome pen!!!


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## sgimbel

I agree. Awesome pen!


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## jttheclockman

I agree, that is an awesome pen. I have to try this for sure. Thanks for showing.


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## arioux

glycerine said:


> Gary Max said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well heck---that's a easy one.
> Buy a bunch of old watchs and take them apart.
> Then you stick the parts on a tube---cast over it--- then turn it to match the bushing.
> Nothing to it.
> I have been working for two weeks on one blank after spending months taking watches apart.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Have you tried the hammer method?!
Click to expand...


This is how i take the watch apart


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## aweiss44

technically i think this post violates trademark law.:bulgy-eyes:


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## Fred

aweiss44 said:


> technically i think this post violates trademark law. ...


 
Be really quite on this as I am sure that the government is keeping an eye out for this type of thing! So, don't be giving them any more ideas ...


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## ROOKIETURNER

This very subject caused a huge upset months back. Ya better not mention selling the thing or you'll be sorry! Just a friendly piece of advice.


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## jeff

ROOKIETURNER said:


> This very subject caused a huge upset months back. Ya better not mention selling the thing or you'll be sorry! Just a friendly piece of advice.



Can someone send me a PM and fill me in on this? I'd like to know the details of why it's such a taboo subject.


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## Nikitas

Dont let you know who find out......


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## capcrnch

I had an idea, but as I thought of it, I trademarked it, so I can't share it anymore.
I can tell you make a ... wait... nope, trademarked that too.

Sorry.

On a serious note, watch pens are one of my favorite creations to see made. I'd really like to cast a few one of these days.

Not for sale of course, because those are.. well, you know.


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## Rifleman1776

PenMan1 said:


> I'd tell you...but it's trademarked.



Trademarked?
Not sure how that affects creative endeavors.
Seems anyone with casting equipment and skills could make something similar. After all other kinds of 'stuff' have been cast and shown here.


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## glycerine

jeff said:


> ROOKIETURNER said:
> 
> 
> 
> This very subject caused a huge upset months back. Ya better not mention selling the thing or you'll be sorry! Just a friendly piece of advice.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can someone send me a PM and fill me in on this? I'd like to know the details of why it's such a taboo subject.
Click to expand...

 
Talk to Jeff Tate!  He started it!! :biggrin:  I'll send a PM...


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## Russianwolf

jeff said:


> ROOKIETURNER said:
> 
> 
> 
> This very subject caused a huge upset months back. Ya better not mention selling the thing or you'll be sorry! Just a friendly piece of advice.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can someone send me a PM and fill me in on this? I'd like to know the details of why it's such a taboo subject.
Click to expand...


This is what started it

http://www.penturners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=58871&highlight=time+series&page=4

and this is what it turned into

http://www.penturners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=59012&highlight=complexity+time&page=3

But also spawned this

http://www.penturners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=59017&highlight=complexity+time

Long story short, A person thinks he has a copy right on all watch part cast in resin pens (among others). I personally think he'd have a very hard time defending it as steampunk jewelry has been around a lot longer than his design .


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## GaryMGg

Russianwolf said:


> Long story short, A person thinks he has a copy right on ....


 
Is Barry the same guy who invented the internet?!?


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## glycerine

GaryMGg said:


> Russianwolf said:
> 
> 
> 
> Long story short, A person thinks he has a copy right on ....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is Barry the same guy who invented the internet?!?
Click to expand...

 
No, silly!  ...That was ME.


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## Mark

Admittedly, I'm foggy in the TM industry. 

It would seem to me publishing the "how to make it" of the pens creation is simply "inviting" people to infringe on the TM. Kind of like entrapment...


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## Nikitas

I thought Tipper's husband did that???


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## Steve Busey

Nikitas said:


> I thought Tipper's _husband _did that???



That would be "soon to be ex-husband"...


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## mick

GaryMGg said:


> Russianwolf said:
> 
> 
> 
> Long story short, A person thinks he has a copy right on ....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is Barry the same guy who invented the internet?!?
Click to expand...

 
He may not have invented it but I'll bet he thinks he has a copy right on it! :biggrin:


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## jtdesigns

I am waiting to here from someone but I will probably start writing a tutorial.  Stay tuned.


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## mick

jtdesigns said:


> I am waiting to here from someone but I will probably start writing a tutorial. Stay tuned.


Good I've got the watches apart, tubes painted and CA glue in hand.....after that I'm still scratching my head(not with the same hand holding the CA)


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## jtdesigns

Now you know how I feel when I look at Jeff Powell's scrolling of pen tubes.  Wish he would do a tutorial.....hint..hint:biggrin:


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## Skye

mick said:


> jtdesigns said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am waiting to here from someone but I will probably start writing a tutorial. Stay tuned.
> 
> 
> 
> Good I've got the watches apart, tubes painted and CA glue in hand.....after that I'm still scratching my head(not with the same hand holding the CA)
Click to expand...


Should be the same as making snakeskin blanks. Just suspend the tubes horizontally with the parts stuck on them, get rid of the bubbles, pour, get rid of bubbles, pressurize, wait. I would think that's the gist of it.


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## darrin1200

I do not want to get stomped on, but I am fascinated by this pen style. Although I have not yet learned to make my own castings, the watch pen is the style that I am aspiring to. Since I first saw it, one of my goals was to make my own. That being said, I make and *sell* pens.
I do not wish to infringe on Copyright, but I do wish to make pens in this style in the future.

In my research into these pens, I found a company that produced a limited edition watch pen a year before Mr. Gross.

Caran d'Ache of Switzerland launches the Limited Edition
"Haute Horlogerie 1010" in October 2007
Here is a link to any article about the launch:
http://home.watchprosite.com/show-forumpost/fi-17/pi-2311946/ti-384306/s-0/

Does this mean he is infinging on copyright. (I don't believe so)

I would never lay claim to coming up with the idea of putting watch parts in a pen, but I would lay claim to my own efforts in creating the one that I am selling. The same goes for the Celtic Knot pens I create, and the Herringbone 360's. 

What is copywritten, the pieces that are cast, the name watchpen, the concept of using watch parts or is it the title "Eco-Friendly Pens"
If I took all the parts from an old tiny music box (gears, pins, springs etc) and cast them in resin, it would look the similar.

I do believe that if I was to cast one of these pens and sell it as an "Eco-Friendly Pen" or as a Barry Gross pen then I would be breaking through extremely thin ice.

A good analogy might be found in a painting.
If I painted an oil painting of a young italian girl with long dark hair wearing a black dress and smiling with her lips closed I could easily sell this as my own.
However if I made a copy of the Mona Lisa and sold it as a Divinci, I would be immediately thrown in jail.

This has just been my 2 cents. I am still looking forward to the day when I have the skill to create a work of art like this.


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## jeff

Barry Gross was granted a copyright on this pen and several others.

After a little research on my own and a short conversation with my attorney, I'll tell you that this is a VERY thorny issue. It's _probably_ legal to _tell_ how to make the pen, just not to make one, even for private use (although one could probably "get away with it" as they say in the legal literature). Wacky, I know...

Here's an interesting article I was pointed to by another copyright professional which discusses how "substantially similar" something must be to be considered infringing.  Here's a little snip from the article:

"In fine art cases, the courts usually adopt what is known as the "ordinary observer or audience test." Under this test, a judge or jury would ask the question whether the copyist took from the original artist something which would be identified as similar by the audience for whom the work was created--art buying public, not the experts. Under this test, one does not present expert witnesses and testimony providing detailed analysis, or dissection of the artwork to determine whether a work is substantially similar. Instead, what is used is an immediate visceral reaction to the two works when looking at them. The reaction of the public in these matters is their spontaneous and immediate reaction. This test is not universally followed by courts and has not been without its critics."

I've shown a photo of the Barry Gross pen and the Jeff Tate pen to multiple people. Their reaction is that they are similar works. Although it would take a lawsuit to sort this out, it might be reasonable to believe that Barry Gross has a reasonable claim. 

It doesn't take a lot of digging to find very similar work that predates the Gross copyright, so his could be challenged as derivative work also. His copyright is also for "2-dimensional" artwork, so I'm not sure how that jives with the fact that a pen is a 3-dimensional object. Those are expensive questions for the legal profession. 

I am not arguing for or against copyright of pen designs. This is one of the biggest issues in the art world and there have been and always will be plenty of people gnashing teeth over it. What I am simply saying is that based on a brief professional analysis and my own research, there does seem to be some substance to the whole issue surrounding Jeff's pen. 

What are we going to do about it? Probably nothing, until and unless the copyright holder notifies us as described in our Copyright Policy.

And that is how I shot my afternoon


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## Mark

Thanks for the post Jeff. That was very informative.

I guess a person could make a living, just enforcing several copyright's like that.

It sounds like even a label (picturing watch parts) would be considered infringement.


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## rjwolfe3

Does that mean that if he notified you then you would have to remove any photos of pens that he holds copyrights to? That would include watch part, cigar label, beer cap, and fly fishing pens. Sounds crazy to me.


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## glycerine

rjwolfe3 said:


> Does that mean that if he notified you then you would have to remove any photos of pens that he holds copyrights to? That would include watch part, cigar label, beer cap, and fly fishing pens. Sounds crazy to me.


 
Not if Barry himself posted the photos:

(from the TOS)
_When you post messages and upload photos, you grant Penturners.org the perpetual, irrevocable, non-exclusive, world-wide, royalty free license to publish, modify and use such content solely for the purpose of displaying such content._


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## darrin1200

Thanks for the informative response Jeff. This seems to be a very sticky subject.
I am not going to wrack my brain over this until I actually create one. That could be some time.


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## rjwolfe3

glycerine said:


> rjwolfe3 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Does that mean that if he notified you then you would have to remove any photos of pens that he holds copyrights to? That would include watch part, cigar label, beer cap, and fly fishing pens. Sounds crazy to me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not if Barry himself posted the photos:
> 
> (from the TOS)
> _When you post messages and upload photos, you grant Penturners.org the perpetual, irrevocable, non-exclusive, world-wide, royalty free license to publish, modify and use such content solely for the purpose of displaying such content._
Click to expand...


Correct, I meant everyone else, lol. For instance all of the cigar label pens I have been seeing recently as well as the fly fishing lure ones. Truthfully, I think its a crappy thing but got to respect the law I guess.


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## Skye

Not to start this hubub up all over again, but he registered (was he awarded like they do patents?) for a *Copyright*, not a *Patent*.



> The copyright *protects the form of expression rather than the subject* matter of the writing. For example, a *description* of a machine *could be copyrighted, but this would only prevent others from copying the description*; it would *not prevent* others from writing a description of their own or *from making and using the machine*. Copyrights are registered by the Copyright Office of the Library of Congress.



So, while I'm no lawyer, it seems to me he hold the Copyright on the idea of a watch blank but he can't prevent someone from making them.


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## mick

rjwolfe3 said:


> Does that mean that if he notified you then you would have to remove any photos of pens that he holds copyrights to? That would include watch part, cigar label, beer cap, and fly fishing pens. Sounds crazy to me.


 
When's he going to register a copyright for air?


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## Russianwolf

The copyright office also says this:



> What is copyright infringement?
> As a general matter, copyright infringement occurs when a copyrighted work is reproduced, distributed, performed, publicly displayed, or made into a derivative work without the permission of the copyright owner.



So if he didn't obtain permission from the original manufacturers, he could be in trouble himself.

and they also say this



> When is my work protected?
> Your work is under copyright protection the moment it is created and fixed in a tangible form that it is perceptible either directly or with the aid of a machine or device.



Which would say to me that PSI and CSUSA and others who are selling blanks gleaned from artist of this site are infringing on their unregistered copyrights.


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## DCBluesman

I just got off the phone with my intellectual property rights lawyer.  He's the one I used for my patent and my trademarks.  I showed him the copy of Barry's copyright.  According to my lawyer, Barry has rights in copy (that is the origination of the term copyright) to his 2-D image of that watch parts pen and work that is derivative of that 2-D image Note that the copyright notice specifically says that what is copyrighted is *2-dimensional artwork*.  The pen cannot be copyrighted.  The pen cannot be trademarked. The pen may be able to qualify for a design patent BUT patents do not exist from the moment of creation, they must be applied for and issued. If Barry writes instructions, his instructions are protected under copyright. Anyone else can write their own instructions, as long as they are not derivative of Barry's instructions, and not violate copyright. FWIW, this counsel just cost me $400...almost as much as a good plumber would have been worth to Roy!


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## rjwolfe3

So are we free to make our own then?


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## jeff

rjwolfe3 said:


> Does that mean that if he notified you then you would have to remove any photos of pens that he holds copyrights to? That would include watch part, cigar label, beer cap, and fly fishing pens. Sounds crazy to me.



That's the theory, but it's not that simple. 

Technically, he needs to prove he is the lawful copyright holder for every item to which he claims copyright. So, I could be a real pain about it, and ask for individual infringement notifications and proof for every item he claims. 

For each item, I can just agree with his claim and remove the material, or deny his claim and wait for legal action. If he provided clear proof of ownership for something on our site which was a dead nuts copy of his stuff, then I guess I'd probably avoid the hassle and remove it. 

If we get into the issue of "substantial similarity", and I wasn't satisfied that it was similar enough to be infringing, then I guess we'd find out who has the deeper pockets, Barry Gross, or the IAP members who decide to contribute to the legal defense fund :frown:


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## Mark

Sounds like you can make one, but not create a picture of it. :question:


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## jeff

DCBluesman said:


> I just got off the phone with my intellectual property rights lawyer.  He's the one I used for my patent and my trademarks.  I showed him the copy of Barry's copyright.  According to my lawyer, Barry has rights in copy (that is the origination of the term copyright) to his 2-D image of that watch parts pen and work that is derivative of that 2-D image Note that the copyright notice specifically says that what is copyrighted is *2-dimensional artwork*.  The pen cannot be copyrighted.  The pen cannot be trademarked. The pen may be able to qualify for a design patent BUT patents do not exist from the moment of creation, they must be applied for and issued. If Barry writes instructions, his instructions are protected under copyright. Anyone else can write their own instructions, as long as they are not derivative of Barry's instructions, and not violate copyright. FWIW, this counsel just cost me $400...almost as much as a good plumber would have been worth to Roy!



Lou just made his Birthday Bash contribution :biggrin:

Thanks, Lou. 

Interpreting this relating to the IAP, we can't post a photo of Barry's pen, at least the one he has on his site. If I buy one and photograph it, I can post that image.


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## DCBluesman

Actually, Jeff, you probably CAN! According to 
*Copyright Law of the United States of America*

*and Related Laws Contained in Title 17 of the United States Code*

Circular 92

*§ 107. Limitations on exclusive rights: Fair use40*

Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include — 
(1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;
(2) the nature of the copyrighted work;
(3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and
(4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.
The fact that a work is unpublished shall not itself bar a finding of fair use if such finding is made upon consideration of all the above factors.



jeff said:


> DCBluesman said:
> 
> 
> 
> I just got off the phone with my intellectual property rights lawyer. He's the one I used for my patent and my trademarks. I showed him the copy of Barry's copyright. According to my lawyer, Barry has rights in copy (that is the origination of the term copyright) to his 2-D image of that watch parts pen and work that is derivative of that 2-D image Note that the copyright notice specifically says that what is copyrighted is *2-dimensional artwork*. The pen cannot be copyrighted. The pen cannot be trademarked. The pen may be able to qualify for a design patent BUT patents do not exist from the moment of creation, they must be applied for and issued. If Barry writes instructions, his instructions are protected under copyright. Anyone else can write their own instructions, as long as they are not derivative of Barry's instructions, and not violate copyright. FWIW, this counsel just cost me $400...almost as much as a good plumber would have been worth to Roy!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lou just made his Birthday Bash contribution :biggrin:
> 
> Thanks, Lou.
> 
> Interpreting this relating to the IAP, we can't post a photo of Barry's pen, at least the one he has on his site. If I buy one and photograph it, I can post that image.
Click to expand...


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## DCBluesman

rjwolfe3 said:


> So are we free to make our own then?


 
I'm not a lawyer, so I won't give YOU legal advice, however, I intend to start making such a pen immediately and I will offer it for sale.  If someone claims I have violated their rights in copy, they can call or email me and I will refer them to my attorney.


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## alphageek

DCBluesman said:


> rjwolfe3 said:
> 
> 
> 
> So are we free to make our own then?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not a lawyer, so I won't give YOU legal advice, however, I intend to start making such a pen immediately and I will offer it for sale.  If someone claims I have violated their rights in copy, they can call or email me and I will refer them to my attorney.
Click to expand...


Interesting approach!   I'll be very curious where this goes.   You're taking this in a completely different direction than the previous thread.   Are you gonna share your results here, Lou?  (like in SOYP?)


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## DCBluesman

Yes, I will.


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## arioux

jeff said:


> DCBluesman said:
> 
> 
> 
> I just got off the phone with my intellectual property rights lawyer.  He's the one I used for my patent and my trademarks.  I showed him the copy of Barry's copyright.  According to my lawyer, Barry has rights in copy (that is the origination of the term copyright) to his 2-D image of that watch parts pen and work that is derivative of that 2-D image Note that the copyright notice specifically says that what is copyrighted is *2-dimensional artwork*.  The pen cannot be copyrighted.  The pen cannot be trademarked. The pen may be able to qualify for a design patent BUT patents do not exist from the moment of creation, they must be applied for and issued. If Barry writes instructions, his instructions are protected under copyright. Anyone else can write their own instructions, as long as they are not derivative of Barry's instructions, and not violate copyright. FWIW, this counsel just cost me $400...almost as much as a good plumber would have been worth to Roy!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lou just made his Birthday Bash contribution :biggrin:
> 
> Thanks, Lou.
> 
> Interpreting this relating to the IAP, we can't post a photo of Barry's pen, at least the one he has on his site. If I buy one and photograph it, I can post that image.
Click to expand...



Yes you can and you will be the owner of the copyright of this photo.


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## darrin1200

Thanks Lou

Your lawyers explanation seems to be the same as I understood copyright.

I can't wait to see the piece of art that you create.


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## OKLAHOMAN

I've got the parts coming and I'll be posting one and putting it on my web-site.


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## mick

DCBluesman said:


> rjwolfe3 said:
> 
> 
> 
> So are we free to make our own then?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not a lawyer, so I won't give YOU legal advice, however, I intend to start making such a pen immediately and I will offer it for sale. If someone claims I have violated their rights in copy, they can call or email me and I will refer them to my attorney.
Click to expand...

 
But will you take a picture of it? :biggrin:


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## Gary Max

Yup Roy--------------your package went out in todays mail.

We could always have a site wide contest-----SOYWP
Show off Your Watch Pen.

There was a company in Italy that made something like this years ago------would they be the folks to get permission from?


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## GaryMGg

Gary Max said:


> Yup Roy--------------your package went out in todays mail.
> 
> We could always have a site wide contest-----SOYWP
> Show off Your Watch Pen.
> 
> There was a company in Italy that made something like this years ago------would they be the folks to get permission from?


 
Count me in!
I'm copyrighting my idea right now:
I'm going to get a bunch of old watches, smash 'em to pieces, have one of you cast the parts with acrylic for me and call it "Time stands still" or, "The day the earth stood still."
:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:


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## Gary Max

Just to help out-------MVV-----Super nice old watches for sale--:biggrin::biggrin:


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## Russianwolf

I had a cool idea thinking about this, and I'll share it as I would love to see it come to life faster than I'll be able to get to it.

Take the watch parts and heat them enough to stretch out of shape. Then make the pen. Kind of a "persistence of Memory" pen. :biggrin:

Have fun guys.


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## alphageek

Russianwolf said:


> I had a cool idea thinking about this, and I'll share it as I would love to see it come to life faster than I'll be able to get to it.
> 
> Take the watch parts and heat them enough to stretch out of shape. Then make the pen. Kind of a "persistence of Memory" pen. :biggrin:
> 
> Have fun guys.



I LIKE that... That would be a neat twist on the idea.... The funny thing is I could picture the painting, but didn't know its name.


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## rjwolfe3

I wonder if I can get $425 a watch part pen like he does???


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## penhead

I must say, that after having read most all of the posts relating to this today, what started it, where it went, etc...that after having read thousands of posts on IAP over the last few years, that these are (in my opinion) two of the most interesting, satisfying posts of any that I have ever read.

Mental note to self: Send Jeff/IAP extra funding next b'day bash or when needed.!!!





jeff said:


> DCBluesman said:
> 
> 
> 
> I just got off the phone with my intellectual property rights lawyer.  He's the one I used for my patent and my trademarks.  I showed him the copy of Barry's copyright.  According to my lawyer, Barry has rights in copy (that is the origination of the term copyright) to his 2-D image of that watch parts pen and work that is derivative of that 2-D image Note that the copyright notice specifically says that what is copyrighted is *2-dimensional artwork*.  The pen cannot be copyrighted.  The pen cannot be trademarked. The pen may be able to qualify for a design patent BUT patents do not exist from the moment of creation, they must be applied for and issued. If Barry writes instructions, his instructions are protected under copyright. Anyone else can write their own instructions, as long as they are not derivative of Barry's instructions, and not violate copyright. FWIW, this counsel just cost me $400...almost as much as a good plumber would have been worth to Roy!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lou just made his Birthday Bash contribution :biggrin:
> 
> Thanks, Lou.
> 
> Interpreting this relating to the IAP, we can't post a photo of Barry's pen, at least the one he has on his site. If I buy one and photograph it, I can post that image.
Click to expand...


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## jpr28056

rjwolfe3 said:


> I wonder if I can get $425 a watch part pen like he does???



Or $295.00 for a Mickey Mouse watch dial pen?  Or for that fact does he have Disney's permission to use Mickey Mouse's likeness?  Or Rolex's?  I couldn't find anywhere on BG's site who owns those trademarked names.


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## Gagler

Russianwolf said:


> Take the watch parts and heat them enough to stretch out of shape. Then make the pen. Kind of a "persistence of Memory" pen. :biggrin:
> 
> Have fun guys.



I wouldn't put too much heat on it as it might "blue" the metal!


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## jtdesigns

Started writing tutorial today.  And yes, you can get $425 but that is too cheap.  I got $800 for the one I pictured.


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## Gary Max

I plan on casting my first one today------I figure it's going to be a Fugley and will end up in the trash---pics to come---hopefully.


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## GaryMGg

jtdesigns said:


> Started writing tutorial today. And yes, you can get $425 but that is too cheap. I got $800 for the one I pictured.


 
That's one of the most outstanding pens I've seen.
I personally think it's more attractive than the Caran d'Ache pictured in the link provided in an earlier post.


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## OKLAHOMAN

Just a heads up, I just looked at one of my wifes old watches insides....WOW some of the smallest screw heads I've ever seen both straight and Phillips (make eyeglass screws look like deck screws). Long ago I had a set of watch screwdrivers and I've spent the morning looking, guess it's ebay time and while I'm at it I might as well get a 10X loop that attachés to my glasses.


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## Gary Max

Roy we are going to need a Tool  "How To Sharpen Screwdriver Tips" tutorial also.


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## Willee

jtdesigns said:


> Started writing tutorial today.  And yes, you can get $425 but that is too cheap.  I got $800 for the one I pictured.




And whoever bought it for $800 got a deal.
Just think what Mont Blank would have charged for that pen.

Absolutely one of the finest pens I have seen.


----------



## hanau

Nice pen. I hope to beable to do a pen like that some day.


----------



## DozerMite

I too think I'll make one. I need to find an old watch first.

I will then wait to be contacted by Gary himself or his attorney...


Then direct them to Lou's attorney. :biggrin:

I will be making one though.


----------



## razor524

Can't wait for the tutorial!!  These are very interesting and even if I never make one, I'd love to know how it is done.  Good work!!


----------



## penfancy

In the Watch magazine on the stand as we speak, A Sierra pen in posted in an add." You send me your watch parts and I'll make a pen for the low price of $79.99. Value $300.USD." I believe it does have the Barry Gross Signature in the resin.


----------



## avbill

Barry Gross copyright states "2-dimensional"  A pen with watch parts in it are 3-dimensional.


----------



## Chief Hill

I think after reading all of this I will make one too. Then I will sell it.   Good luck proving it let alone suing someone in a different country for copyright issues. Its simple a good lawyer can drag a case in court for years and it costs the person suing too Much money.  He does not have enough money to sue for a few pens made and sold    So have fun everyone make them, sell them, and have fun. Try to prove it in court. Lol. What pen??


----------



## papNal

After reading all the legal stuff I got all fired up and decided to break in my new HF pressure pot by casting one of them timex blanks! However I had to give up when I couldn't figure how to wind it up or with a newer model get the battery changed;( So guess I'll try a grasshopper instead.John  (Hope they ain't protected!)


----------



## its_virgil

So, I'm taking notes watching the TV show "How Its Made" and I now think I will go out and infringe on some of the TMs ... they did show us how its (many things) made. I think I will also infringe on Walmart's marketing idea and sell all of the products I can now make that once belonged to someone else.  Wow! I've learned a lot in this thread (and the other one also)I saw another show outlining Walmart's marketing strategy. I will have time now that  "The Adventures of Chuckleberry Flinn" is almost finished.
Do a good turn daily!
Don



Mark said:


> Admittedly, I'm foggy in the TM industry.
> 
> It would seem to me publishing the "how to make it" of the pens creation is simply "inviting" people to infringe on the TM. Kind of like entrapment...


----------



## seamus7227

LMAO!!!:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:Go get em tiger! Don, headin' to the other thread now to play catch up!



its_virgil said:


> So, I'm taking notes watching the TV show "How Its Made" and I now think I will go out and infringe on some of the TMs ... they did show us how its (many things) made. I think I will also infringe on Walmart's marketing idea and sell all of the products I can now make that once belonged to someone else.  Wow! I've learned a lot in this thread (and the other one also)I saw another show outlining Walmart's marketing strategy. I will have time now that  "The Adventures of Chuckleberry Flinn" is almost finished.
> Do a good turn daily!
> Don
> 
> 
> 
> Mark said:
> 
> 
> 
> Admittedly, I'm foggy in the TM industry.
> 
> It would seem to me publishing the "how to make it" of the pens creation is simply "inviting" people to infringe on the TM. Kind of like entrapment...
Click to expand...


----------



## alphageek

its_virgil said:


> So, I'm taking notes watching the TV show "How Its Made" and I now think I will go out and infringe on some of the TMs ... they did show us how its (many things) made. I think I will also infringe on Walmart's marketing idea and sell all of the products I can now make that once belonged to someone else.  Wow! I've learned a lot in this thread (and the other one also)I saw another show outlining Walmart's marketing strategy. I will have time now that  "The Adventures of Chuckleberry Flinn" is almost finished.
> Do a good turn daily!
> Don



Don, just to play devils advocate since I've seen you post several places about this recently... I'm just curious how you really feel about this (since I believe that you are against the watch pens).   I've been taking a sideline to this overall... but your recent posts really raise my curiosity.  

If truly you are saying that these shouldn't be made because Berry has a trademark, then I'm confused because that same document trademarks cigar label pens (which you have one on your website) - as well as you have  a OSU pen and a pen with a picture of the Mona Lisa.

I'm not really stating which side of this "flamewar" I'm on.  So I'm not really looking to join the battle.   I firmly believe that we have to make each live with our own decisions (or live with the law if it comes to that) - but I also feel that there is a fine line of some things... For example, there is a possibility that Barry has a valid ownership of these.   However, it is also possible that due to the wording or prior art from someone else, it is possible that what he has doesn't apply to whats being made here.   Thats not my judgement (and nor is it the judgement of alot of the people on both sides of this).

So... This was longwinded, on the fence, and probably didn't lead anywhere.   If anything was gotten from this post, I hope that it makes people think.  Don, please don't take this as an attack on you - I'm also not judging any of your pens.   Your series of recent posts seems to be pointing to people as stealing trademarks and I'm curious how you judge the line.   If you wonder why I chose you specifically to ask this... its a combination of the fact that your one of the 'best known' names (to me at least) that I've seen in this topic and because of the recent posts you made, specifically the "adventures of post".


----------



## srf1114

the immortal words of Rodeny King comes to mind.  "Can' t we all just get along?"


----------



## its_virgil

alphageek said:


> Don, just to play devils advocate since I've seen you post several places about this recently... I'm just curious how you really feel about this (since I believe that you are against the watch pens).   I've been taking a sideline to this overall... but your recent posts really raise my curiosity.


 
I've posted in just two threads. How I really feel?  I suppose you are asking my opinion. I think you know what it is. I am not against watch part pens....as long as Barry Gross is making and selling them. I am not a lawyer (and I was advised to not attend law school:biggrin: nor quit my day job) but as of now I consider the watch parts pen to be the property of Barry Gross. I may make one myself but I will first obtain Barry's permission and it will be just for me and my collection and not be made to sell. That's how I feel.  




alphageek said:


> If truly you are saying that these shouldn't be made because Berry has a trademark, then I'm confused because that same document trademarks cigar label pens (which you have one on your website) - as well as you have  a OSU pen and a pen with a picture of the Mona Lisa.


The OSU pen was made as a gift for my daughter who graduated from OSU and no money exchanged hands. The cigar label pen was made for a friend who smokes that cigar brand. It was made in 2004 (if I recall correctly and I think I do) which was before Barry was making them (I think) The Mona Lisa pen was made from a blank made for me and the pen is in my collection, and not sold nor was it ever given to the art teacher. The teacher resigned and left before I had the chance to present the pen as a gift.



alphageek said:


> I'm not really stating which side of this "flamewar" I'm on.


*But you asked me to state which side I'm on? So, I'm asking you...which side are you on?*  I don't consider my participation to be a flame war. I have not flamed anyone nor have I intended to do so.



alphageek said:


> So I'm not really looking to join the battle.


I have no battle to pick and I have no horse in this race. Until I find out the (legal) opinions I will not be making and selling any of the pens that Barry makes. I ignore all of the "I think" and "my opinion is" posts from the several non-copyright-lawyers posters who are posting. What I think really does not matter but I think Barry has a legitimate claim and I will not infringe on that.




alphageek said:


> *I firmly believe that we have to  each live with our own decisions* (or live with the law if it comes to that) - but I also feel that there is a fine line of some things... For example, there is a possibility that Barry has a valid ownership of these.   However, it is also possible that due to the wording or prior art from someone else, it is possible that what he has doesn't apply to whats being made here.   Thats not my judgement (and nor is it the judgement of alot of the people on both sides of this).


As do I. and my decision is that I will not be making any of these pens without the permission of Barry. I have no authority over others but I do like to sleep at night.



alphageek said:


> So... This was longwinded, on the fence, and probably didn't lead anywhere.   If anything was gotten from this post, I hope that it makes people think.  Don, please don't take this as an attack on you - I'm also not judging any of your pens.   Your series of recent posts seems to be pointing to people as stealing trademarks and I'm curious how you judge the line.   If you wonder why I chose you specifically to ask this... its a combination of the fact that your one of the 'best known' names (to me at least) that I've seen in this topic and because of the recent posts you made, specifically the "adventures of post".


Fence riders only get sore crotches. I hope you climb of the fence and  onto the right side and only you can determine which side that is for you. It sounds like you understood the "Adventures of Chuckleberry Flinn" post. I think my point was made...with you at least.

(you asked)...and I'm curious how you judge the line. Do you mean how I judge the line or how one judges the line?  I interpret the facts as I have them and then make my judgment. If the decision is not totally clear I err on the side of caution and the fact that I like to sleep at night. Thanks for asking. you are the first to ask for my opinions and I appreciate that. One of the best known names.....wow! Thanks for that.
Do a good turn daily or as Dr. laura would say...Now, go do the right thing.
Don


----------



## alphageek

srf1114 said:
			
		

> the immortal words of Rodeny King comes to mind.  "Can' t we all just get along?"



Obviously not!  

Seriously, for some of us this is about trying to do the right thing but to also be able to try variations on other ideas that have been shared.   But it does make our head hurt as to where the line of 'ok' stands.


----------



## Snorton20

So a little question to add to this wonderful thread.  If you take labels off of a bottle and then cast them in resin, can the beer companies come after u for selling there labels?


----------



## alphageek

its_virgil said:
			
		

> ...trimmed...
> 
> But you asked me to state which side I'm on? So, I'm asking you...which side are you on?  I don't consider my participation to be a flame war. I have not flamed anyone nor have I intended to do so.
> 
> .... Trimmed...
> 
> (you asked)...and I'm curious how you judge the line. Do you mean how I judge the line or how one judges the line?  I interpret the facts as I have them and then make my judgment. If the decision is not totally clear I err on the side of caution and the fact that I like to sleep at night. Thanks for asking. you are the first to ask for my opinions and I appreciate that. One of the best known names.....wow! Thanks for that.
> Do a good turn daily or as Dr. laura would say...Now, go do the right thing.
> Don



Thanks for the reply... I'll try to be short in mine.  Realize that I don't mean to put words into your mouth, just how I interpret what you wrote. 

- I didnt mean to imply you were flaming, just that this is a hot topic with both sides having strong opinions of their point. 
- I will say that your post makes it very clear to me that there will be many peoples versions of the "truth" as each sees it.   I read into your reply that you feel Barry has a valid ownership of the watch pen but you feel you predate him with the cigar you made. I know others feel there is prior art to both. 
- You also seem to be ok with some copyright concerns (osu is my example here) depending on the usage.   Would you go to Barry to create a watch pen for your own collection or family member? (rhertotical -- just a thought more than a question)

You asked about my side.   I say I'm on the fence.  Not because I dont want to pick a side.  I'm on the fence because I dont know that I have enough information to get off the fence without falling face first into horse poo.  What I read of the copyright links is that you can't compyright ideas.   If I were to make a pen with parts places just exactly like Barry I know I'm in the wrong.  If I use the idea of placing parts my own way, I don't think it's wrong.  But like you I am not a lawer.... I'm an engineer and work with computers - I'm much better when the rules may be hard to understand rather than hard to interpret. ( that is a difficult distinction for some people).  Code and laws can be both hard to read, but code isn't open to interpretation.


----------



## Billman

> as Dr. laura would say...Now, go do the right thing.



I think she is better known for saying something else these days.


----------



## maxwell_smart007

Perhaps because this conversation is largely taking place between two people, it might be better suited to private messaging?  

Just worried it might get out of hand...they usually do!


----------



## alphageek

Snorton20 said:
			
		

> So a little question to add to this wonderful thread.  If you take labels off of a bottle and then cast them in resin, can the beer companies come after u for selling there labels?



IMO ( again not a lawer) I think they can (trademark and all)... Actually looking at barrys watch pens I'm surprised by the number of trademarked names on it... Again part of why my head hurts on these topics.


----------



## its_virgil

I do feel that Barry has a claim to the watch parts pen. I do not know the legalities and I will not pursue them. There are so many other pens to make and for me I just feel that is would be wrong to make and sell a watch parts pen. I cannot speak for others. Others seem to have their own opinion and they obviously disagree with mine. But, I must do what I discern as the correct thing for me to do. 

I have no claim to the cigar label pen. I just noted for your info that I made the cigar label pen several years ago and I don't think Barry had made them yet. I don't know for sure if he had or not. Neither the cigar label nor the OSU pen were sold.  So, I suppose I feel that it was OK to make them since no money was involved and no damages were inflicted to either the univ or the tobacco company. I could be totally wrong and off base. If so, so then I must live with those two decisions.

Would I ask Barry for permission to make a watch parts pen for myself of a family member? Yes, I would seek permission from Barry before I would make one for my personal collection or as a gift to a family member. Barry could say no and if so I would honor that. That is how I feel and it fits into my moral grid.

Thanks for asking and for listening. I appreciate your attitude in this matter. 
Do a good turn daily!
Don





alphageek said:


> its_virgil said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I read into your reply that you feel Barry has a valid ownership of the watch pen but you feel you predate him with the cigar you made. I know others feel there is prior art to both.
> - You also seem to be ok with some copyright concerns (osu is my example here) depending on the usage.   Would you go to Barry to create a watch pen for your own collection or family member? (rhertotical -- just a thought more than a question)
Click to expand...


----------



## its_virgil

I think the conversation is in line with this thread. Alphageek and I will not let our conversation get out of hand.  We can't control what others may allow themselves to do. thanks,
Don






maxwell_smart007 said:


> Perhaps because this conversation is largely taking place between two people, it might be better suited to private messaging?
> 
> Just worried it might get out of hand...they usually do!


----------



## its_virgil

I have no idea what she is saying these days. I've not listened to her in a couple of years. 

Don



Billman said:


> as Dr. laura would say...Now, go do the right thing.
> 
> 
> 
> I think she is better known for saying something else these days.
Click to expand...


----------



## Billman

its_virgil said:


> I have no idea what she is saying these days. I've not listened to her in a couple of years.
> 
> Don
> 
> 
> 
> Billman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> as Dr. laura would say...Now, go do the right thing.
> 
> 
> 
> I think she is better known for saying something else these days.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

LOL... No worries Don, I was just makin' a joke.


----------



## Grizz

I had no idea who Barry Gross is/was.  (I'm so in the loop of things).  So I checked out is website and noticed that he has these watches for sale and is using Micky Mouse.

Pardon the interruption, but isn't that a trademark infringement?


----------



## MesquiteMan

its_virgil said:


> Would I ask Barry for permission to make a watch parts pen for myself of a family member? Yes, I would seek permission from Barry before I would make one for my personal collection or as a gift to a family member.



That exact scenario is what started this whole thing here on IAP.  A person asked Barry for his permission to make a couple for himself and his family member.  This person even asked Barry for help and advice.  Said help and advice was given, as long as it was for his personal use.  Next thing we know, said person is posting their new line of pens and offering to do a tutorial on said pens.  Then said person goes on to say they sold one of the pens for a LOT of money.  

Now, Barry is being made out to be the villain for defending his idea against the person who gave his word.  Really sad the way a lot of folks have jumped him.


----------



## its_virgil

Read about derivative works. I think the Mickey Mouse watch pen falls into that category...as does the beer caps pen and the cigar label pens...but I'm no expert and am not giving advice...just thinking out loud. 
http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ14.pdf
Do a good turn daily!
Don



Grizz said:


> I had no idea who Barry Gross is/was.  (I'm so in the loop of things).  So I checked out is website and noticed that he has these watches for sale and is using Micky Mouse.
> 
> Pardon the interruption, but isn't that a trademark infringement?


----------



## Grizz

ah... that's right falls under the Derivative clause.  I remember over in the scrollsaw world  Jeff Zafino was sued by some artist for using his drawings.  Jeff lost the case and owed around $100,000 in damages.



its_virgil said:


> Read about derivative works. I think the Mickey Mouse watch pen falls into that category...as does the beer caps pen and the cigar label pens...but I'm no expert and am not giving advice...just thinking out loud.
> http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ14.pdf
> Do a good turn daily!
> Don
> 
> 
> 
> Grizz said:
> 
> 
> 
> I had no idea who Barry Gross is/was.  (I'm so in the loop of things).  So I checked out is website and noticed that he has these watches for sale and is using Micky Mouse.
> 
> Pardon the interruption, but isn't that a trademark infringement?
Click to expand...


----------



## Lenny

I honestly don't know where I fall in on this, but I thought I would share this for consideration...

I remember reading about someone who asked whether or not it was ok to make a project that had been published in a woodworking book or magazine, with the intent to "market' the item. As I recall, the publisher replied that you can make the item for your own personal use but to sell the item you would need permission. 

Like I said I'm not really clear how I feel about this, but what keeps coming up in my mind as I read these threads is .... If things in this world were FAIR, Bruce would be getting royalties for every Computer Circuit board pen that is sold!


----------



## Skye

And it's also one of the time when quality comes into play. More or less the same thing happened with both the cactus blanks and the computer blanks. Right after Curtis wrote the how-to someone else jumped in and started producing and promoting the sale of the blanks here even though it was Curtis' baby. Unfortunately it's just the way the hobby goes but the good thing is the blanks were far inferior to Curtis' and every cactus blank pen I've seen that's been truly amazing was always with one of his blanks.

When an idea is mentioned here you may as just plan on it being copied. It's the nature of the trade. If you have a secret you want to stay hidden, don't mention it. If you produce a new type of stock, be the best at it so when it comes time for the board to jump on the idea and go looking for a source, you're quality puts you at the top of the list.


----------



## rjwolfe3

I am really surprised that the watch part pen is the only one out of the four that Barry Gross owns that people are upset about. I have seen quite a few cast cigar labels and cast fly fishing lure pens and cast blanks out there and some of them are for sale. Yet the watch part pen is the one that is getting the most attention. If the same principles apply to each and every situation then where is the uproar over those ideas that Mr. Gross holds a copyright over?


----------



## OKLAHOMAN

I've always respected Don and now I have a new respect for Dean. Thank both of you for showing how to post your opinions without flaming ....Don thanks for all your help  when I started casting snake and Curtis for yours with cactus.


----------



## Grizz

rjwolfe3 said:


> I am really surprised that the watch part pen is the only one out of the four that Barry Gross owns that people are upset about. I have seen quite a few cast cigar labels and cast fly fishing lure pens and cast blanks out there and some of them are for sale. Yet the watch part pen is the one that is getting the most attention. If the same principles apply to each and every situation then where is the uproar over those ideas that Mr. Gross holds a copyright over?



Probably because that is the one that Barry got upset about?


----------



## jtdesigns

Well that makes my mind up.  I am setting the watch pens aside out of respect for this forum and members.  

Curtis, there are two sides to every story regarding my interaction between Barry and I.  Somewhere in the middle lies the truth and I know what I perceived to hear in that "said" conversation with Barry.  I am quite surprised since he sells and has laid claim to the cactus pens that I believe you originated.  Now, maybe he got your permission but I am not privy to that info but is interesting none the less.

Jeff


----------



## Willee

Lenny said:


> Like I said I'm not really clear how I feel about this, but what keeps coming up in my mind as I read these threads is .... If things in this world were FAIR, Bruce would be getting royalties for every Computer Circuit board pen that is sold!



Why do you keep saying this knowing that Bruce himself admits he was not the first to do that? That he got the idea from someone else?

Does your opinion apply to everyone else that really was the first one to do something different making a pen?


----------



## Willee

I sure hope all you fellas have the copyright or permission for all the artwork you are copying and using as your personal avatar.

Some are outright violations.


----------



## Skye

Willee said:


> I sure hope all you fellas have the copyright or permission for all the artwork you are copying and using as your personal avatar.
> 
> Some are outright violations.



(I see a Shiner Bock bottle in yours. You paying royalties? :wink: )


----------



## MesquiteMan

Grizz said:


> rjwolfe3 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am really surprised that the watch part pen is the only one out of the four that Barry Gross owns that people are upset about. I have seen quite a few cast cigar labels and cast fly fishing lure pens and cast blanks out there and some of them are for sale. Yet the watch part pen is the one that is getting the most attention. If the same principles apply to each and every situation then where is the uproar over those ideas that Mr. Gross holds a copyright over?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Probably because that is the one that Barry got upset about?
Click to expand...


Please read post #95 above and please, let's not keep vilifying Barry.


----------



## MesquiteMan

jtdesigns said:


> I am quite surprised since he sells and has laid claim to the cactus pens that I believe you originated.  Now, maybe he got your permission but I am not privy to that info but is interesting none the less.
> 
> Jeff



I don't make or sell Cholla pens or blanks.  I did show the first Cholla pen here on IAP 4-5 years ago though, before Barry did one.  That is not the point of this discussion, though.


----------



## Lenny

Willee said:


> Lenny said:
> 
> 
> 
> Like I said I'm not really clear how I feel about this, but what keeps coming up in my mind as I read these threads is .... If things in this world were FAIR, Bruce would be getting royalties for every Computer Circuit board pen that is sold!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why do you keep saying this knowing that Bruce himself admits he was not the first to do that? That he got the idea from someone else?
> 
> Well, first of all, I think this is the first time I ever said this..:biggrin:
> however, I stand corrected, I did not know that.
> 
> Does your opinion apply to everyone else that really was the first one to do something different making a pen?
Click to expand...

 
Honestly, I would HOPE that most would be willing to share their ideas freely (as most do here), immitation being the sincerest form of flattery.


----------



## Gary Max

Remember---- At this time I am not offering to sell any type of Cast blanks here at IAP---but I do have permission from Curtis to sell cactus Blanks. It was his ideal and I asked him before I sold any. I do have the email saved on file off site.
Steampunk Art has been around for more years than most of us have been alive.
There is a big difference.


----------



## its_virgil

I know, as was I?:biggrin:
Don



Billman said:


> its_virgil said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have no idea what she is saying these days. I've not listened to her in a couple of years.
> 
> Don
> 
> 
> 
> Billman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> as Dr. laura would say...Now, go do the right thing.
> 
> 
> 
> I think she is better known for saying something else these days.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> LOL... No worries Don, I was just makin' a joke.
Click to expand...


----------



## jttheclockman

Now I know Barry comes to this site and does see what has been going on. The entire thing started with what Curtis meantioned about JTDesigns talking with Barry and getting help and all about making so called watch pens. Then he decides to mention he is selling these and was going to make a tutorial. Now that is what has ticked Barry off from what I am understanding. 

I think because this is a well known site in the pen industry it has drawn the attention of pen makers around the world. This thing about selling these look alike pens because that is what they all are, are being sold around the world by others. Just look at etsy and ebay. Why Does Barry not go after them??? Who knows how many people are making them and maybe have been making them for many years before Barry but just because they are not a member here showing off their work does not mean they do not exist?? We are a small drop in the bucket here for the amount of people turning pens. Look at some of the pen sympossiums and other turning sympossiums and your head would spin. 


What I would like to see being Barry is a member here and has appeared here before, to come here and to set the record straight as to his stance. State what he thinks his copyright projects mean to him from what he understands to be true. I am sure he looked into this before he filed. Explain to us all what he thinks we can and can not do?? It would make for an interesting read. Hopefully this will stand out enough so he will read it and give it some serious thought. There is alot of grey area in interpretting these things.

Now I have read posts such as Don Wards and finally he came out and stated what his thoughts were instead of beating around the bush and things like Curtis who are big names here and are influential in their voices, and I understand their thoughts. I understand the concept of coming up with an idea and calling it your own and then putting some cocamamie copyright on it. What do you think "EAGLE" would have said about this???? How many copyrights do you think he should have taken out??? My opinion is and it means absolutely nothing but we all grew into this hobby by learning from others. We did so by our predecessors sharing their ideas and techniques. The idea of casting items in resin is nothing new, it has been around for a long time. Coming up with another item to cast in resin is just that, another item cast in resin. The concept is still the same. So to be able to copyright that item is just plain wrong in my opinion. He may have a better shot at copyrighting the phrase ECO-FRIENDLY PENS. 

Someone mentioned quality is what sells pens and this is true. Just because someone makes a watch pen does not make it the same quality as Barry's. I just do not get this whole concept of copyrighting an idea such as casting an item in resin. Maybe SkipRat better start contacting the copyright office because his ideas are truely one of a kind. Barry needs to think back when he started doing this hobby and who he borrowed his ideas from. Give me a break. OK I am off the soap box and thanks for reading my novel.


----------



## BRobbins629

jttheclockman said:


> What I would like to see being Barry is a member here and has appeared here before, to come here and to set the record straight as to his stance. State what he thinks his copyright projects mean to him from what he understands to be true. I am sure he looked into this before he filed. Explain to us all what he thinks we can and can not do?? It would make for an interesting read. Hopefully this will stand out enough so he will read it and give it some serious thought. There is alot of grey area in interpretting these things.


 
Why not send him a pm and ask him to post his position if he chooses?


----------



## Snorton20

So do we have to come on here and find out what we are allowed to cast before we do so?  I would like to cast pencil shavings has that been done already? Will I get sued? How can anyone get in trouble for casting something in resin? Anything and just about everything has been attempted to be cast with some good results and some without.  So should I be afraid and not cast anything?  When does the line get drawn?


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## rjwolfe3

Lol that's what I was trying to find out in the thread that I put out.



Snorton20 said:


> So do we have to come on here and find out what we are allowed to cast before we do so?  I would like to cast pencil shavings has that been done already? Will I get sued? How can anyone get in trouble for casting something in resin? Anything and just about everything has been attempted to be cast with some good results and some without.  So should I be afraid and not cast anything?  When does the line get drawn?


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## Skye

jttheclockman said:


> .........What I would like to see being Barry is a member here and has appeared here before, to come here and to set the record straight as to his stance......................................




Because to me it wouldn't matter.  I know my interpretation of what a copyright entails and if he were to say otherwise or say that he's highly offended people are copying his idea.... I wouldn't really care to be blunt. If he posted his approval or disapproval is of no relevance to me. In that case, why bother kicking up more dirt?


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## RAdams

I have stayed away from posting to any of these debates because I have been caught up in my own storm with a very similar situation. 

I heavily agree with alot of JT's post above. I think copyrighting your work in this particular field is all but insane. Especially if it is something that can/has been done by others. I do not mean any disrespect to Barry, or anyone else. This post is just my opinion, and we all know about opinions... As i was recently told by an attorney, and i think has been posted here before, "A copyright or trademark is only as good as your ability to protect it." 

If the copyrighted or trademarked materials are already questionable by just the general penmaking community, Just imagine what a decent attorney could do to defend such a case, and with numerous sources for amazingly similar products that pre-date the trademarks, or copyrights, it seems like an open and shut situation. 

I do not know Mr. Gross' stance on his copyrights... Maybe he just wants to protect the name that he uses. Maybe he thought he was protecting himself, and got dooped by an attorney, or more likely it is something completely different... I don't know.

 I do know this..... As a blank caster, I am always on the lookout for the next big thing. My hope is to purely find it, start it, and release it to the public for open use, as a small payback to everyone that helped me out, and continues to do so. I also believe that copyrights like these stifle (sp) the penmaking community. 

If only Curtis made cactus blanks, then penmakers would be limited to only what Curtis decides to make. No doubt his blanks are top shelf, but I know of several people that are doing some REALLY neat stuff with skeletons. They just don't post them here out of fear of incredible backlash. So the penmaking community never sees these innovative ideas because the creator is afraid to share. It isn't a lack of want... Trust me, they would love nothing more than to show their work, and let everyone here continue the innovation. 

I think this applies to all the ideas that are shared in our community. In reality some people depend heavily on their turning, or blank making skills to keep the lights on. These people will be much faster to defend their ideas. Some are just in it for the fun of seeing amazing pens, and the feeling of being seen as a mentor (Speaking of Skiprat...)

Plain and simple, this mix of "hobbyists" and "production workers" causes a difference in opinion on protecting these works. The hobbyists feel that all these designs and ideas should be public domain, and the production crew want to protect their revenue source. I understand both points of view, and could easily set my opinion to the side and debate either side of the argument. 

Thanks for reading my post.

Ron


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## dogcatcher

RAdams said:


> As i was recently told by an attorney, and i think has been posted here before, "A copyright or trademark is only as good as your ability to protect it."
> 
> Ron



One thing to think about is that if you are sued you will have to get an attorney, that costs money, and that can be *lots of money*.  The second thing to think about is that a jury can rule either way, that can also cost a * lot more money*.

The best rule in these circumstances if you think you may be crossing the line, it is best to step back and go somewhere else.


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## Willee

Skye said:


> Willee said:
> 
> 
> 
> I sure hope all you fellas have the copyright or permission for all the artwork you are copying and using as your personal avatar.
> 
> Some are outright violations.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (I see a Shiner Bock bottle in yours. You paying royalties? :wink: )
Click to expand...


You bet ... every time I buy and drink one I pay the royalties.
Actually they should be paying me for promoting their product ... or at least some free product once in a while.

Nothing goes better with pool cue or pen making than Shiner Bock Beer ... IMHO.


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## Willee

Lenny said:


> Willee said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lenny said:
> 
> 
> 
> Like I said I'm not really clear how I feel about this, but what keeps coming up in my mind as I read these threads is .... If things in this world were FAIR, Bruce would be getting royalties for every Computer Circuit board pen that is sold!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why do you keep saying this knowing that Bruce himself admits he was not the first to do that? That he got the idea from someone else?
> 
> Well, first of all, I think this is the first time I ever said this..:biggrin:
> however, I stand corrected, I did not know that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I thought I read a post from you before stating the same thing.
> Could be mistaken ... probably am ... at my age it happens a lot.
Click to expand...


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## Dudley Young

I made on, but I didn't leave a battery access so when it went dead the watch stopped. Dead watch.


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## Skye

Willee said:


> Nothing goes better with pool cue or pen making than Shiner Bock Beer ... IMHO.



I dunno, I had a Thomas Creek Dopplebock recently that was hard to beat!


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## Lenny

Willee said:


> I thought I read a post from you before stating the same thing.
> Could be mistaken ... probably am ... at my age it happens a lot.


 
And at my age I COULD have said it before and have forgotten !


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