# Meltdown



## keithkarl2007 (Oct 28, 2009)

Ok, has anyone seen a post in another forum running down the IAP site? I can't remember what forum i seen it on but they were commenting on it saying that as members, we aren't as helpful as we once were with other members. It was also suggested that we keep our ideas to ourselves and when someone asks how we made such a pen we don't share what we have learned.
They used the Herringbone 360 (how-to) as an example saying nobody would give away much, that they'd sooner keep it to themselves. It's driving me mad thinking which forum it was on because they also stated it's not a friendly site anymore and that many of them would't use the forum anymore.
I haven't made many pens, but with all the knowledge and wisdom that is shared on the site, I feel i'd never be stuck if i needed any advice.


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## Jgrden (Oct 28, 2009)

They're pissed because they couldn't find out how to make them from us. They aren't part of our underground.


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## keithkarl2007 (Oct 28, 2009)

The funny thing is the members on it probably started off on this forum and could be still on it


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## wdcav1952 (Oct 28, 2009)

Keith,

Just remember "_Non illigitamus carborundum._"  There exists a segment of the population, here on the IAP, and nationwide here in the US, who feel that they are entitled to receive whatever they desire.

I firmly believe that learning something or earning something is far better than being given things.  Those of us with initiative don't understand those who wish to be spoon fed their every desire/need; nor do they comprehend initiative.

At the risk of sounding redundant:

*"Non illigitamus carborundum"*


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## maxwell_smart007 (Oct 29, 2009)

I guess they don't believe in the principle of learning by doing...or to put it in Cav's terms: 

Discere faciendo! (Unless I've conjugated that incorrectly!) 

Andrew


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## leehljp (Oct 29, 2009)

I am not running to their defense by citing diverse opinions and personalities with my 2 yen/cents. But I will cite some differences in view points.

I agree that at some point, people should learn from their own trial and efforts with maybe some hints and ideas from others. But be given cart blanche instructions on complicated things like herringbone - no.  We have a diverse group - many PMG members, great artists and free thinkers when it comes to creating. AND we have many many beginners as well as many in between.


In thinking this over for months since our "herringbone" discussion, it finally dawned on me that with this wide of a gap, there has to be at least two kinds of instructors/mentors/helpers/teachers here.

1. Those that like to help the beginners get on their feet and become productive;
. . . and
2. Those that take obvious talent and skill and turn them into Olympic Gold winners.


I am in the category of #1 above. I enjoy helping people stand, get started and being productive. And generally if someone asks me, I will give a detailed list of how to do something I know. This does not develop them into creative artists, only copy artists.

In honesty, it often takes restraint to "hold back" crucial information which will thwart creative inventiveness. Eagle was the epitome of this. You guys that would NOT write up a detailed explanation of the herringbone did this well. (I know some of you did this for different reasons but then I am a idealist and state it from that perspective. :wink: )


IAP is a great organization with very diverse group of people from rank beginners to Master Artists and Businessmen/women. It has a great balance of teachers/mentors on both ends of the spectrum.


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## mickr (Oct 29, 2009)

Just want to put my 2 cents in...Mr Lee is a gentleman..I have never seen a post that wasn't thoughtful and knowlegeable...hooray for you Mr Lee...There are a few others also that are always polite and give out good info...but as a person who has done woodworking since the great depression, I too cringe at the attitudes of some people on the forum..we had no books, no mentors, no internet, back in the day...today info is everywhere, and people expect EVERYTHING to be available...people will ask this forum " if I turn a banana, what will happen? If I have a piece of roadkill, how do I attach it to a faceplate?"  People today seem to ask first and try for themselves much much later...I always want to write back: Try it & let us know how it works out...But I now just move on to the next post...what do others think???.


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## GoodTurns (Oct 29, 2009)

keithkarl2007 said:


> They used the Herringbone 360 (how-to) as an example saying nobody would give away much, that they'd sooner keep it to themselves.



probably Penn State...PO'd 'cause they can't figure it out and sell them cheap :biggrin:


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## DennisM (Oct 29, 2009)

GoodTurns said:


> probably Penn State...PO'd 'cause they can't figure it out and sell them cheap :biggrin:


 

LOL thats a good one!

i for one, have to say, would I like to have someone show me a hint on the HB360? Heck ya! BUT am I not going to try to figure it out myself utill that time? NOPE! You only get better by doing, one can never learn to think outside the box if they are always handed the answer.

Ideas are great to share, even mentor other on, but at some point eveyone has to be able to step up to the plate and try swinging the bat..

Do I see a lack of help here on IAP? No. being a new guy myself I get a lot of help when I ask. But then again I am not asking for the world either. Some things have to be discovered on your own... (ebony and maple NOT a good mix for finishing!)


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## jkeithrussell (Oct 29, 2009)

My general rule in life is that I don't care what other people say about me.  I would view this the same way.


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## Seer (Oct 29, 2009)

Here it is I think or maybe another one
http://ukpenkits.com/catalog/forums...ghlight=&sid=8115cbe2faa5bbfcebeb2b5c22186314


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## DocStram (Oct 29, 2009)

mickr said:


> "If I have a piece of roadkill, how do I attach it to a faceplate?"  People today seem to ask first and try for themselves much much later...I always want to write back: Try it & let us know how it works out....




Interestingly enough, my herringbone attempt ended up looking like roadkill.  I never thought about trying to attach it to my faceplate.  Maybe that is the missing step?


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## Munsterlander (Oct 29, 2009)

I think this forum is awesome - people are incredibly helpful, encouraging, and, as you'll see when I finally get the pictures posted from the Muscular Dystrophy Association event for which several of you donated pens, giving.


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## Seer (Oct 29, 2009)

I have learned as stated earlier some people want it handed to them on a Silver platter.  I like to learn as much as the next person but I also like to figure out how some things are done.
What people say about me or think about me is no concern of mine and those that think they know what you should do or say need to butt out of my life and live their own.


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## Daniel (Oct 29, 2009)

Well now, (rubs chin in deep thought) If that is the impression a person could get out of the 360 issue, then just possibly they are not the sort of person suited to this site. there is not intention of inferring a good or bad with that comment either. Birds of a feather flock together. I see the 360 issue being handled in the spirit of Eagle, that being there is much to be gained in not having something just handed to you. I like to put it this way, "You get out of something what you put into it". 

I also like the P.S.I. comment and would have laughed even harder had I not thought it could just be true. In that regard I also believe that if you kick the dog long enough he will eventually snarl.

at least to me you all are alright, I don't care what they say.


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## Rojo22 (Oct 29, 2009)

I have benefited from the most generous woodworking folks on the planet.  I have two rules in my own shop.  The first is, have fun but be safe.  The second is that I have NO secrets.

My woodworking skills are far and away ahead of where I would be if I had been pounding my head against a wall trying to figure stuff out by myself.  The reason I have associated with the folks in my life is they are willing and ABLE to share their experiences, both bad and good.  I constantly hear from woodworking friends that are much older than me, that they wish they had started earlier and tried different things with other woodworkers sooner, because they see all of the time they took to get where they were.

I personally have only one debt to pay the folks who have shared their knowledge in woodworking, and that is to pass the knowledge along willingly and freely.  If for some reason my limited experience helps someone stay safe, have fun, or make them reach for something higher, I have done a good thing, and honor those woodworkers who I wish I could still go to and ask questions but cannot, because they are no longer with us.

If you look around, the average age for woodworking in clubs is way over 60.  I am a member of 5 woodworking oriented clubs in the Atlanta area, and they are trying to figure out why they cannot get younger people involved.  The reasons are numerous, but a nice person, showing somebody how to do something goes a long way in creating interest and pride in a young person.  If you dont feel that way, please stay in your own shop and do your own work, and dont be bothered by the rest of us, who feel like we are raising the bar for EVERYONE, not just ourselves.  If we dont share our knowledge, woodworking will be a dead art.


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## Seer (Oct 29, 2009)

I agree knowledge is powerful and sharing knowledge can change a life but don't completely give it away give hints and let them work through and once they figure it out regardless of what it is that person will appreciate the end result even more.
I worked as a Slot Machine Technician in a shop where we all shared our knowledge and this made all of us better Techs and actually we were paid higher than most in Reno.  I believe in sharing but I also believe in learning I like learning the basics and then moving off on my own



Rojo22 said:


> I have benefited from the most generous woodworking folks on the planet. I have two rules in my own shop. The first is, have fun but be safe. The second is that I have NO secrets.
> 
> My woodworking skills are far and away ahead of where I would be if I had been pounding my head against a wall trying to figure stuff out by myself. The reason I have associated with the folks in my life is they are willing and ABLE to share their experiences, both bad and good. I constantly hear from woodworking friends that are much older than me, that they wish they had started earlier and tried different things with other woodworkers sooner, because they see all of the time they took to get where they were.
> 
> ...


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## jedgerton (Oct 29, 2009)

Here is my two cents.  Most of the things we learn could be described as an evolutionary process.  Once we see how to do something, we try to find better ways or we add our own unique twist to make it a little different.

Regardless of what others say on other sites, the members on this site do share their experiences.  I would hate to think that we all independently have to go through the same trial and error process to learn the same techniques.  I will speak for myself, but without the ideas and techniques shared on this site, my work wouldn't be nearly as nice or enjoyable (and I probably would have sold my tools on craigslist by now).

My opinion is, embrace the power of sharing information on a forum such as this.  Learn all that you can from others and then try to go a step further and freely share that knowledge once you have it so that others can repeat the same process.  If we all retreat to our own shops and solve our problems independently, our progress will be diminished and it just won't be as much fun.

John


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## maxwell_smart007 (Oct 29, 2009)

Ok, we've gone and done it again...another ideological discourse centred on the illusive herringbone!  

But seriously - I don't think that worrying about what others think about us, or our forum, is a healthy topic for discussion.  We obviously like it here, or we wouldn't be here posting...

Let's just move on, shall we?  Hey, I hear that Ed4copies is giving out gift certificates to anyone who promotes his products - what's up with that? :biggrin: :biggrin: 
(and yes, I'm kidding about Ed! )


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## Trevor (Oct 29, 2009)

While I do not post nearly often as I should, there are some topics for which I simply cannot remain silent.  I can say with complete honesty that my pen crafting skills would be no where near the level they are now without the wonderful men and women of this organization.

Like many people I took up penturning because it looked like an enjoyable way to express my creative side, and I was quickly sucked into the vortex.  I found myself never satisfied with my results because I knew that pen I just finshed could be a little better.  When I needed help with a problem I was having I came hear for direction and guidance.

This has been a fantastic experience for me, and I have reached a level where I can actually sell a few pens.  That being said, for me at least, the destination is never as important as the journey itself.  While the help I have received from the memebers here has been invaluable, my time in the shop and the effort I have put forth to advance my skills is ultimately what I value the most.  I cannot express the pride I feel when I look at a newly finished pen and think "I made that." 

I would never expect or ask anyone on this forum to spoon feed me directions or to reveal to me there secrets.  To do so would ruin the journey.  Unfortunately, some people do not get it.  Those people will never get it, and, sadly, will never experience the joy of being able to say "I made that."

sorry for the rant.


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## mtgrizzly52 (Oct 29, 2009)

And...hopefully the last thing said on this subject...even though I have been turning pens for about two years, I still consider myself a beginner. The custom blanks, and wild beautiful pens that are created on this site allow me to stretch myself while trying to figure out how to do some of the creative things done by the members of this forum.

I love the 360 herringbone pen, but I am not ready to take something like that on. If someone had let the cat out of the bag, I'm sure I would have attempted it, more than likely failed, and gave up in disgust. Sometimes too much information can create a situation for those not ready for it, and may cause those beginners to give up in frustration.

Other than one minor incident when I first came on board, the members here have been wonderful with advice, and challenges to figure it out on my own, with helpful hints. Petty differences don't seem really prevalent like I see on other forums I belong to, and I do detect a real sense of community with this sometimes overlooked group of woodturners.

Thank all of you for that as I genuinely appreciate that fact I have a place I can go that has the potential of improving what little skills I have.

Rick(mtgrizzly52)


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## Jim15 (Oct 29, 2009)

Other people can say what they want, but I think this is on of the best websites on the internet!!!


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## jkeithrussell (Oct 29, 2009)

jedgerton said:


> Here is my two cents. Most of the things we learn could be described as an evolutionary process. Once we see how to do something, we try to find better ways or we add our own unique twist to make it a little different.
> 
> Regardless of what others say on other sites, the members on this site do share their experiences. I would hate to think that we all independently have to go through the same trial and error process to learn the same techniques. I will speak for myself, but without the ideas and techniques shared on this site, my work wouldn't be nearly as nice or enjoyable (and I probably would have sold my tools on craigslist by now).
> 
> ...


 
You're right, John.  Even if you tell someone how to do something, they still don't really know until they have tried it.  Tutorials work like that for me.  I read them and get a general idea of what to do, and then experiment to learn the rest.  The CA finish is a perfect example.  I could write out my CA process in fine detail, but it's not really going to help someone as much as a few hours of practice would.  Any woodworker should be willing to share general information with other woodworkers, but no one should expect someone to wrap it all up in a box with a bow on top.  Even having said that, there are people on the forum who will bend over backwards to help you out with personal demonstrations, free supplies, and much more.  I have never been turned away when I've asked for help.  Even with the 360, when I asked someone how it was done, I was told to work on it and try to figure it out first -- and I think that is perfectly reasonable.  Anyone who would lash out at this forum based on the 360 HB is just a knucklehead in my book.


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## Mark (Oct 29, 2009)

Jim15 said:


> ...I think this is one of the best websites on the internet!!!



*I agree*. I'm a newbie here, but I've found the organization very helpful and always willing to give advice. 

If all you folks were being paid to answer questions, write articles and post diagrams of your work, then "buttercup" has a right to be mad that they didn't get the answers they were looking for. But...... Since you are not paid for the answers, any info you give freely should be more than enough for a forum member.

I have drawings of several designs I've seen here. I'm still trying to figure out how to create them. One day I will and I have a few projects that I'm working on with my own designs. Pretty cool (if I say so myself).

I believe it was a case of giving them the fish or teaching them to fish. 

Me, I want to learn on my own. Trial and error. That way I'm proud of what I've created and not copied from someone else's hard work.

I'm done... Thanks for listening. :biggrin:  -Mark


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## OKLAHOMAN (Oct 29, 2009)

Seems to me some here want to be spoon fed, as I remember the 360 thread it was a challenge to the members , I bet that in an avg. week here there is more shared than in 6 months on all the other sites together. Do we have disagreements on some topics...yes but remember we have over 8,000 members with more than 50,00 threads and over 600,000 post  and some are bound to have opinions that differ, not just 139  cozy members like the site in question, let them grow as we have and then lets see how "cozy" they stay, on second thought they will never grow as we have, we have a world wide selection of great sharing folks but remember doing for yourself and the satisfaction of seeing "your" creation just can't be beat. Eagle would help anyone as long as they put in the effort, he made you think and I guess that some folks want their soup put on the spoon for them placed in their mouth and then a someone with napkin to wipe the drippings off their chin...


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## kevin miller (Oct 29, 2009)

my biggest proplem is i am not artistic and do not have an imagination. i need the basics and then i can go from there. i have only been here a  month, but have already been given ideas and guidence to  give me a fantastic start. i appreciate every bit of  help i get here. thanks kevin


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## BigguyZ (Oct 29, 2009)

OK, I'll start off by saying I've been doing pens on and off for 3 years.  I enjoy it, and am working every time I'm in the shop to do better each time.  For me, it's a hobby.  I enjoy making things- whether it's projects in the home or making speakers (how I got into WWing in the first place).  However, I don't have the time or the patience to figure out how to do a lot of the segmenting stuff people do on here- including the HB360.  Would I try it?  Maybe.  But it's not something I yearn to do.  So frankly, I don't care about the HB360.

However, in concept, I've always felt that in a community like this, everyone should share their ideas.  I started out doing computer case modding, and there was always detailed how-to pictorials on everything people did, and never did someone say that they weren't going to tell people how to do it.  Maybe because it was still a very niche market at the time (this was when the standard computer case was still beige/ gray).  But even with people telling everyone how to do everything, new ideas would emerge and show up.  Never did providing information stifle the real creativity.  

Then, I moved onto speaker building, and again- people were free to offer their assistance.  Some were doing it for money, but even so, people were always open to offering advice and techniques.  The same for woodworking.  I found a site that has some of the most friendly people ever, and people have always been willing to share information and help when asked.

From there I found out about pen making, and came to the IAP.  People are very friendly here, and generous with their time, among other things.  I don't have any issues with the current feel of the site overall, and I don't have a beef with any members.  However, I can't say I haven't thought that some people's comments are derogatory towards the hobbyists of the group.  Or those people who haven't invested as much money and time into pen making as they have.  I understand that people make money, and even their living off of this.  But I don't think that a community venue is the place for you then.  I believe in an open market of ideas.  I get annoyed when people talk about people wanting to be spoon fed information- but probably because I'm one of those people.  I work a full time job, and work with my brother rehabbing houses.  I don't have that much time in the day (or money) to do experiments with materials and techniques.  Call me lazy, I guess.  But until I do have that block of time, it would seem I'm not deigned worthy to try the more advanced techniques of penmaking.  At least, that's the feeling I get from some.  

I also think that there's an arbitrary line here too.  People have no problem giving advice on how to do a CA finish.  If you're still using a friction polish or HUT's, this is an advanced technique.  But something like how to make a new/ exotic kind of blank?  Oh, keep that a secret!  What's the difference?  People can make money from the latter, and not the former.  So it seems like a double standard to me.  

OK, that's my rant.  I'm sure I PO'd enough people with what I've said already (not my intention, BTW), so I'll stop here.

Thank you to the moderators and all of the forum members for the opportunity to provide my thoughts.  Without *everyone's* generosity, I wouldn't even have the motivation to bother with a post.  I'll now go back to my day, and tomorrow, I'll be taking a day off to continue my persuit as a pen craftsman- since I guess I'm not good enough to be considered a pen _artist_.  And you know what?  I'm fine with that.  I just wouldn't mind _crafting_ higher quality pens.


EDIT:  I would like to clarify something- I don't have an issue with members making money by offering their products to members.  I just think it needs to be kept to certain areas.  I try to use IAP vendors when time allows, and think the vendor areas are great. I haven't seen anyone go over the line, but I think there are limits.  

OK...  NOW I'm done.


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## Scott (Oct 29, 2009)

There are a lot of different people in the world.  No one place will be perfect for all of them.  The IAP is not perfect for all people.  I can't imagine how bland a place would be if it were even "acceptable" to all people!  So, to those who wish to be here - welcome!  And to those who do not wish to be here, I wish you good luck!

BTW, thank you to all of you who wish to be here!  You brighten my day every time I visit!

Scott.


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## jkeithrussell (Oct 29, 2009)

OKLAHOMAN said:


> remember we have over 8,000 members with more than 50,00 threads and *over 600,000 post*


 
About 90% of those are from Ed.


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## OKLAHOMAN (Oct 29, 2009)

My replies in red to your thoughts in purple!




Biggies said:


> OK, I'll start off by saying I've been doing pens on and off for 3 years. I enjoy it, and am working every time I'm in the shop to do better each time. For me, it's a hobby. I enjoy making things- whether it's projects in the home or making speakers (how I got into WWing in the first place). However, I don't have the time or the patience to figure out how to do a lot of the segmenting stuff people do on here- including the HB360. Would I try it? Maybe. But it's not something I yearn to do. So frankly, I don't care about the HB360.However, in concept, I've always felt that in a community like this, everyone should share their ideas.
> In other words spoon fed.
> 
> 
> ...


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## HSTurning (Oct 29, 2009)

I have not read all the post but I wanted to post.
I have only been a mamner for 10 months but I have been turning and reading this forum for 19 months.  For the most part this forum is very helpful.  I feel that some information should be learn first by trying.  Once a new pen design is figured out there a people that just want to know how to do it as quick as possible so they can make them and make money off the design that they didnt invent.  I dont agree with this at all.  I would like to know how to make a 360 HB but I have not had the time to try and figure it out.  I am not going to ask how having not even tried yet, but thats me.  I dont like giving away my time if people are going to make money off my time.  In my eyes that is being taken advantage of and im tired of it.  I may only be 34 but it has happened to often in the past.  I have friends that have homes and I will only help them work on the homes if they are living in it and dont plan on moving soon.  I am not going to give my time for free if the are just out to flip a house for profit.  I look at the designing of a new pen the same way.  The least I can do is buy a pen/blank from the person the has the design.  Maybe I will figure it out maybe not.

Giving infomation out on the web is not even close to getting information or instructions first hand.  If you know someone that is willing to show you how to make or do something you want to learn that is great.  If you dont, you have to pay.  If I want to learn how to make a bowl I can hack away on my own or I can PAY to take a class at one of the local wood working stores.  I see a new pen design(most things in general) the same way.


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## wolftat (Oct 29, 2009)

BigguyZ said:


> OK, I'll start off by saying I've been doing pens on and off for 3 years. I enjoy it, and am working every time I'm in the shop to do better each time. For me, it's a hobby. I enjoy making things- whether it's projects in the home or making speakers (how I got into WWing in the first place). However, I don't have the time or the patience to figure out how to do a lot of the segmenting stuff people do on here- including the HB360. Would I try it? Maybe. But it's not something I yearn to do. So frankly, I don't care about the HB360.
> 
> However, in concept, I've always felt that in a community like this, everyone should share their ideas. I started out doing computer case modding, and there was always detailed how-to pictorials on everything people did, and never did someone say that they weren't going to tell people how to do it. Maybe because it was still a very niche market at the time (this was when the standard computer case was still beige/ gray). But even with people telling everyone how to do everything, new ideas would emerge and show up. Never did providing information stifle the real creativity.
> 
> ...


I work a full time job too, I have recently been forced to take some time off because I was found to have put in just over 200 hours in 2 weeks (salaried, no overtime). That doesn't mean that I can't think for myself and need to have instructions written out for me so I can make a blank that I claim isn't important to me. When you have the time and THE PATIENCE then you will be able to make whatever type of pen you would like, until then you do just as the rest of us do, we do the best job we can at whatever we are doing and try to actually work at something instead of whining that life isn't fair.


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## BigguyZ (Oct 29, 2009)

When did I ever complain that someone hasn't told me what I want?  I've asked for some information, yes, but I've never complained?  And frankly, I'm good with what I know now.  My point was, some people don't want to bother with playing around with that kind of stuff.  I know that I find segmentations interesting, and I'm in awe of some of the work done here.  I'm interested in how people do it- mostly on an intellectual level- but I don't really have much of an interest in taking hours to do that sort of thing.  I enjoy the actual turning, and the crafting of the pen.  Design: I find that insteresting, but that's not my thing.  Some people here I guess think everyone should relish every step of the process, and if you don't, you're not fit to do something.

It's a value statement, if you can understand that.  I value my time more than I value the knowledge of how to do some of these things.  (again, to reiterate: I don't care about making a HB360 design).  

However, if I or someone else who's new asks how to do things, I don't understand why someone would be so self rightous as to call them lazy or say they need to be spoon fed (which implies that they are infantile, and is a insulting term to use).  Personally, I'm of the mindset that people should share ideas, and those who don't want to share should then just keep their opinions to themselves.


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## wolftat (Oct 29, 2009)

I spent about 3 month of my free time playing around with it in order to learn all that I could about it. I know it's hard to sit there and fail when trying to make something that someone else makes look easy, but that person that is making it look easy was sitting there frustrated and throwing things at one point too. And no, noone should be called lazy for asking a question just as noone should be called names for telling them to try it first.


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## DozerMite (Oct 29, 2009)

I think some of these comments, especially the last couple pages, are what people are talking about. There is no reason to be an a$$ because someone has an opinion. Everyone is entitled to an opinion whether you agree with it or not.
People like to bring up that there are 8,000 members. Where are they?? How many are actually active?? Where did they go and why?? Did they leave because this is such a great and friendly place?
If you read the comments about IAP on other sites, you have to agree, some are valid points.


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## wolftat (Oct 29, 2009)

DozerMite said:


> I think some of these comments, especially the last couple pages, are what people are talking about. There is no reason to be an a$$ because someone has an opinion. Everyone is entitled to an opinion whether you agree with it or not.
> People like to bring up that there are 8,000 members. Where are they?? How many are actually active?? Where did they go and why?? Did they leave because this is such a great and friendly place?
> If you read the comments about IAP on other sites, you have to agree, some are valid points.


When I first came around this site, I was warned by some people that this was a rough site, but I was also told that it was the best site to learn more about penmaking and that you just had to learn what to listen to and what to ignore. I have now been here for over 2 years and have seen a lot of different things happen here, but I have seen more happen here than on any other site. I happen to like this site and have met many people that I respect and would be proud to call a friend. I have also met some that I would be fine never having to deal with again. This is life and if someone feels that things aren't what they expect here then they may be on the wrong site for them. There is no way to keep everyone happy no matter what you may do.

By the way, I am still on page one of this thread....LOL It all depends on how you set things up in your control panel.


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## ed4copies (Oct 29, 2009)

DocStram said:


> Interestingly enough, my herringbone attempt ended up looking like roadkill.  I never thought about trying to attach it to my faceplate.  Maybe that is the missing step?



Boy could WE USE your sense of humor, here lately.

Nice to see you post Doc!!


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## DozerMite (Oct 29, 2009)

wolftat said:


> When I first came around this site, I was warned by some people that this was a rough site, but I was also told that it was the best site to learn more about penmaking and that you just had to learn what to listen to and what to ignore. I have now been here for over 2 years and have seen a lot of different things happen here, but I have seen more happen here than on any other site. I happen to like this site and have met many people that I respect and would be proud to call a friend. I have also met some that I would be fine never having to deal with again. This is life and if someone feels that things aren't what they expect here then they may be on the wrong site for them. There is no way to keep everyone happy no matter what you may do.
> 
> By the way, I am still on page one of this thread....LOL It all depends on how you set things up in your control panel.


 

There is also NO REASON to intentionally be derogatory or condescending.
Do you like it when someone treats you like an idiot just because you don't know something. How about casting a photochromic blank?


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## keithkarl2007 (Oct 29, 2009)

I just hope this discussion doesn't prevent some of the great penturners to continue sharing what they have learned since they started pen turning. I just hate to think that members will keep to themselves in fear of educating other penturners in the same area or state.
Kinda sorry i brought it up, I feel it will change the attitudes of many members


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## PenPal (Oct 29, 2009)

*Hi*

As a penmaker from 8000 miles away I was attracted by the name of the site International.
Result was I joined and have made efforts to introduce some Australian traditions such as fair play,honesty and downright sharing. When I make a pen I have tried to say the name of the timber, where it grows especially if it is Australian for no other reason than to share. My Avatar was prompted by the huge number of people I have met who have no concept of where we live, language we speak, our accent etc in my travels around the world. We can be misunderstood one with another over basic English expression.

We have a daughter living with her family in the United States who teaches middle School there was recently asked by a parent to say something in Australian waiting for some strange utterance.

Basically we all crave kindness and understanding. My observation is there are a tremendous number of members of the IAP who are Professional Pen Makers who are extremely generous. I have had incredible dealings purchasing timber from the ads placed
on our forum indeed have been able to source timbers much nearer to Australia.

Our Australian dollar has fluctuated from down to 50 odd cents on the US up now to 92 cents in the US dollar so our sense of value is coloured by our experience.

It is everyones privilige to share or not I choose to share and will continue to do so. My means ie age pensioner dictates my choice of kit Slimline now with Streamline bands and I am never fazed when comments are made such as what a waste of beautiful timber on such
a cheap kit etc. I live within my means and capabilities seeing through my 75 year old body with 15 yr old perception through to maturity. My family that is my wife and I with our children, grandchildren and 16 gg children now total 66 of us so I have a broad spectrum of experiences.

Finally I have made some great friendships on the forum and claim equal rights to my own opinions as do you. Have fun.  Peter.


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## wolftat (Oct 29, 2009)

DozerMite said:


> There is also NO REASON to intentionally be derogatory or condescending.
> Do you like it when someone treats you like an idiot just because you don't know something. How about casting a photochromic blank?


 James, I wasn't aware I was being derogatory or condescending and I meant what I wrote in a friendly way. Maybe this is part of the reason the reason people are so upset, things are being taken out of context. If I offended you with something that I said, it wasn't meant that way.


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## OKLAHOMAN (Oct 29, 2009)

James PM sent!




DozerMite said:


> I think some of these comments, especially the last couple pages, are what people are talking about. There is no reason to be an a$$ because someone has an opinion. Everyone is entitled to an opinion whether you agree with it or not.
> People like to bring up that there are 8,000 members. Where are they?? How many are actually active?? Where did they go and why?? Did they leave because this is such a great and friendly place?
> If you read the comments about IAP on other sites, you have to agree, some are valid points.


 


DozerMite said:


> There is also NO REASON to intentionally be derogatory or condescending.
> Do you like it when someone treats you like an idiot just because you don't know something. How about casting a photochromic blank?


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## Constant Laubscher (Oct 29, 2009)

Just to spice things up, how about a laser cut 360 Herringbone kit? No special skills needed just assemble and finish.


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## DozerMite (Oct 29, 2009)

Neil,
wasn't offended. It just seems that when a discussion gets past a couple pages, it goes south fast and everyone is quick to jump on someones opinion and bash them. 

All I'm saying, is maybe these types of threads, are what they are speaking of.


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## Jgrden (Oct 29, 2009)

*You*



pwhay said:


> As a penmaker from 8000 miles away I was attracted by the name of the site International.
> Result was I joined and have made efforts to introduce some Australian traditions such as fair play,honesty and downright sharing. When I make a pen I have tried to say the name of the timber, where it grows especially if it is Australian for no other reason than to share. My Avatar was prompted by the huge number of people I have met who have no concept of where we live, language we speak, our accent etc in my travels around the world. We can be misunderstood one with another over basic English expression.
> 
> We have a daughter living with her family in the United States who teaches middle School there was recently asked by a parent to say something in Australian waiting for some strange utterance.
> ...


You are a fine example of what we all should be like and strive to do. I have noticed a little sensitivity to releasing "secrets" but it doesn't bother me. I'd rather be up front and disclose all I do. The chances of anyone hurting my business by knowing how I do things is very unlikely. I'd rather be open, share and kid around with people a little. 
John, in Texas, Northwest of Australia


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## philb (Oct 29, 2009)

If you actually read all the comments posted on said website, not everyone's being so derogatory of IAP or of the 360experiment not handing out how-to's!

Although I do think this site has a tendency to jump on a thread, this works in positives and negatives! Many will jump on a thread for a very nicely made pen, but also many will jump on a thread that is even slightly critical. But with 8000 members its gotta be expected!

For the record ill still be using both sites! And have received many tips and advice that I wouldn't of got with IAP or a few members Ive met through! And am very grateful for this!

PHIL


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## Jgrden (Oct 29, 2009)

philbaldwin said:


> If you actually read all the comments posted on said website, not everyone's being so derogatory of IAP or of the 360experiment not handing out how-to's!
> 
> Although I do think this site has a tendency to jump on a thread, this works in positives and negatives! Many will jump on a thread for a very nicely made pen, but also many will jump on a thread that is even slightly critical. But with 8000 members its gotta be expected!
> 
> ...


What other site??


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## NewLondon88 (Oct 29, 2009)

DozerMite said:


> It just seems that when a discussion gets past a couple pages, it goes south fast and everyone is quick to jump on someones opinion and bash them.
> 
> All I'm saying, is maybe these types of threads, are what they are speaking of.



That has been happening on every forum in the world as long as there
have been forums. It's the nature of communication without contact.

One person says something, someone asks a question or makes a point a
little off to one side, and an answer comes back from the other side. A
comment gets made that is even further off to one side, an answer comes
back even further from the other side. 

And so the pendulum swings.

Part of it is that the question or followup might give the impression that
there's a lack of understanding, so the reply might over-emphasize a
point. And someone might take that the wrong way and respond from
even further afield. And feelings get trampled.

Were the conversations to happen face to face .. or even via telephone,
most of the mis-communications would cease. Then again, the threads
would be shorter..

For the record, I don't think everything should just be handed to anyone
who asks for it. 

Only to me. 

And Neil is still out of my will. I figured out MY OWN 359 degree herringbone


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## philb (Oct 29, 2009)

Jgrden said:


> What other site??



The one the whole thread started over!


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## philb (Oct 29, 2009)

Have to say newlondon speaks a lot of sense!!


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## NewLondon88 (Oct 29, 2009)

philbaldwin said:


> Have to say newlondon speaks a lot of sense!!



Don't let that get around.. I have a reputation, you know :tongue:


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## Seer (Oct 29, 2009)

Constant Laubscher said:


> Just to spice things up, how about a laser cut 360 Herringbone kit? No special skills needed just assemble and finish.


 
Would be nice but I think I will try to figure it out and have more pride in the kit so that it will have it's flaws, no offence intended


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## Rojo22 (Oct 29, 2009)

Constant

Can I advance purchase 10 of the kits?  I would like them in the colors that you have dyed, all mixed up in the segments!

Robert



Constant Laubscher said:


> Just to spice things up, how about a laser cut 360 Herringbone kit? No special skills needed just assemble and finish.


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## Rojo22 (Oct 29, 2009)

If anyone is interested in the Herringbone 360 blank, please see the Southeast Chapter section, there is a thread there that will show you how to create Herringbone 360 blanks......


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## traderdon55 (Oct 30, 2009)

I can't see any reason for anyone to put down this site. If someone comes up with a new idea I don't blame them for not telling everyone how to do it for a while. Just look into the offerings many companies are selling now that were originally ideas that someone on here came up with. If someone comes up with a new idea they might as well profit from it for a little while before it gets copied. As far as sharing information I have to thank everyone on here for the information they share because just about everything I know about penmaking I learned on here. If I had not found this site the way I started making simple slimlines with a friction polish finish would have gotten old real fast. Thanks to everyone on here giving me so many ideas to try. I enjoy making pens more now than I did when I started two years ago. I especially enjoy passing on things I learn on here with other local turners and maybe one day I can come up with an original idea to pass on here. I know some people may read the banter going back and forth though these posts and think everyone is upset with each other but I don't feel that is the case. If everyone reads close enough I think they will this group is like a bunch of close friends that feel comfortable enough with each other to express their own opinion and at the end of the day still be friends.


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## NewLondon88 (Oct 30, 2009)

traderdon55 said:


> I think they will this group is like a bunch of close friends that feel comfortable enough with each other to express their own opinion and at the end of the day still be friends.



True enough, but if one of them says 'Pull my finger'   RUN!


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## Rojo22 (Oct 30, 2009)

Is pull my blank ok?


LOL




NewLondon88 said:


> True enough, but if one of them says 'Pull my finger'   RUN!


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## cnirenberg (Oct 30, 2009)

Rojo22 said:


> Is pull my blank ok?
> 
> 
> LOL



For those of us with minds in the gutter, that was pretty funny.  Does your blank make a funny sound when you pull it?


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## RichB (Oct 30, 2009)

I started on the IAP learning pens now I have spread the knowledge to my sons.  It is great to be on a site that is helpful and not bringing up copyright laws all the time.  I am on another site(which isn't pens) and it seems to be in the back ground all the time.  This is a hobby and I can't think of a hobby you can make a full living on it.  Thanks IAP


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## KenV (Oct 30, 2009)

Last night my wife, the weaver, shared with me a Peter Collingswood pub, The Journal for Weavers, Spinners, and Dyers.  Peter died a year ago.  He was a notable British Weaver who moved from being a Doctor to being amongst the foremost weavers in the world.  His son Jason provided an opening to this small book  - a quote is appropriate here

"He was always there to answer any question and rather annoyingly he knew the answers to all of them.  Even more infuriating was the fact that he'd never just tell me the answer but guide me through the process of figuring it out.  The more I think about it, the more I can appreciate his presence and influence on me growing up as a child".

Peter did put all his publications into the public domain before his death.  His writing are detailed and complex - none are tutorial.  I get to understand them then translate them to my wife.  Interesting work opportunity between our personalities.

I know I am frustrated with teachers who make me learn how to make it work, rather than teach a process that I can copy, but I like the outcome of learning to think it thorugh rather than just following a process.   

Then again the world is divided between the polar positions of outcome oriented and process oriented people.   

I started with figuring out 4 sided, then figured and calcualted the 6 sided and the 8 sided tiled herringbone patterns.  The pieces get smaller and smaller as the number of sides gets larger, but they can make some nice bottle stoppers with larger number of sides.

Blessings to all and may the process followers find peace in patterns.


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## jleiwig (Oct 30, 2009)

I think that the problem is that the hobby has progressed.  From a first few basic offerings supplied by major vendors that eventually we all tried to duplicate (ie PR blanks kitless pens etc...) and then master to where the industry is now duplicating what many hobbiests are producing in their shops on meager means.  

Some people obviously take offense to industry "stealing" our ideas and products as a community and others could really care less as long they can either A). get the item at a cheaper price or B). learn how to do it on their own.  The people in the first group tend to get mad and get secretive with their new processes versus the way they used to share, and the people in the second group get mad because they can't satisfy A or B stated above, so the cycle starts over again with B asking and A denying and this forum having a post like this.


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## DurocShark (Oct 30, 2009)

Ratty laughs at the other boards.


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## jimofsanston (Oct 30, 2009)

*As a semi beginner.*

I love this forum. I for one like to see what other have done and everyone is will to give some info but I don't expect to be told step by step how things are done. If i see something that has been done i will try and figure it out and give it a try (that is part of learning hands on) or think of something of my own and show pictures of it and get advice from everyone on how to improve it.  I still am waiting on the step by step procedures on the cat s**t pen and needs to have the hazmat steps too.:biggrin:


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## GoodTurns (Oct 30, 2009)

jimofsanston said:


> I still am waiting on the step by step procedures on the cat s**t pen and needs to have the hazmat steps too.:biggrin:



step one...wait behind cat....


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## MesquiteMan (Oct 30, 2009)

step 2, scoop.  Step 3, put in toaster oven,.....now I am getting sick just remembering all that I went through for the glory of making the most disgusting pen of 09!  What the hell was i thinking!


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## DurocShark (Oct 30, 2009)

MesquiteMan said:


> step 2, scoop.  Step 3, put in toaster oven,.....now I am getting sick just remembering all that I went through for the glory of making the most disgusting pen of 09!  What the hell was i thinking!



That it was an achievement that nobody will ever match.

Until the roadkill faceplate pen, that is.


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## Rick_G (Oct 30, 2009)

DurocShark said:


> That it was an achievement that nobody will ever match.
> 
> Until the roadkill faceplate pen, that is.



Or even try!!


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## gvanweerd (Oct 30, 2009)

i'm a new member. and i haven't turning pens very long. when i come to this site. I'm inspired by what you folks are doing here.  i see the 360 and WOW! But  I don't what to be told how to do it. But i sure whould like to figure it out, and make my own version of it. just my 2 cent worth.  Now all i have to do is make a good enough pen to post.   Gary


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## Jgrden (Oct 30, 2009)

It won't be long before you are showing me how it is done. Glad you found such a rewarding occupation.


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