# More of a proof of concept than



## alamocdc (Mar 27, 2008)

anything else really. And why I didn't put it in SWOP. I hobbled together a few jigs for an idea I "copied". I've been wanting to try this for a few years now, but just haven't taken the time. Now I'll build some better jigs so the things I want to do are more repeatable. This one has more flaws than I care to mention, but I Just had to show it. It actually incorporates a few different ideas. Like multiple cuts, and filling voids w/resin (in this case, black). I just used some scrap Walnut and Cherry for the woods.


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## thewishman (Mar 27, 2008)

Looks sweet, Billy!

Chris


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## thewishman (Mar 27, 2008)

Or should I say, "tweet"?!


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## avbill (Mar 27, 2008)

Bill 

 was your jig for a table saw  or bandsaw?

Bill


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## alamocdc (Mar 27, 2008)

Table saw, Bill.

FWIW, this pen is NOT segmented. The walnut is still in one piece.


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## rjwolfe3 (Mar 27, 2008)

Tutorial?


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## Russianwolf (Mar 27, 2008)

are we going to have to change your name to eaglette?

nice look from what I see.


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## alamocdc (Mar 27, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Russianwolf_
> 
> are we going to have to change your name to eaglette?



Heheheh, I knew someone would recognize where I got it.

Rob, I'm sorry, but there is no tutorial... until and unless the originator of this "style" writes one. To date only he has done blanks this way, to my knowledge. IF, and that's a big if, I even did it the way he does. I'm not really sure b/c I don't know that he's ever posted much about his technique. Regardless, I just wouldn't feel right about writing one up.

I will tell you the same thing he told me a few years back. If you think you have an idea of how to accomplish it, try it. It'll either work or it won't. I will also share that this rather crappy version was my fourth try.


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## GaryMGg (Mar 27, 2008)

Well done Billy. Glad to see you continue to ignore the lack of guidance to build what you want to build. 
But, since there's no tutorial, are you gonna do a youtube video [)][][}][}]


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## rincewind03060 (Mar 28, 2008)

Very pretty!
The pattern in the wood has a nice Art Deco look (a style I really like), but I think it would look even better with a plain center band. CB is too busy in my opinion.


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## Rifleman1776 (Mar 28, 2008)

Neat. Is your new nickname "Knuckles"?


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## sbell111 (Mar 28, 2008)

> _Originally posted by alamocdc_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


First, let me make it perfectly clear that it is completely your decision to not do a tutorial and I support that decision.  That being said, I wouldn't not do the tutorial simply because this is a style of blank that someone else made first.

I would not have a problem doing a tutorial on how to make an RTV mold, for instance, even though Gadget made the first ones (for our purpose, on this board).  Gadget hasn't shared any secret techniques with me, so I wouldn't have a problem explaining my method to anyone else.

Similarly, I wouldn't have a problem with explaining how I would create a PR bottle stopper with a whatchamacallit cast inside, since Ed hasn't shared any of his secrets with me and I wouldn't have a problem explaining how I would use my laser engraver to make a flag or puzzle pen since Ken hasn't schooled me on his method.

It's great that some people have been the first to do some really cool things, but after a while, we have to feel free to share what we know or the forum gets stagnant real quick.  In my opinion, we're all here to get better at what we do.  By sharing ideas and constantly building on what has come before, we can create some amazing pieces of craftmanship.


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## MikeInMo (Mar 28, 2008)

First off, I think that pen is really cool looking.  

However, I am confused.  

Billy - In the original post, it says the pen i walnut, cherry and resin.  In a later post, you say the walnut is in one piece.  Even without a full tutorial, could you or someone else give a quick explanation of the basic concept or link to the original post this is based on?  Thanks.


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## loglugger (Mar 29, 2008)

> _Originally posted by sbell111_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Steve, I would agree with you except these people are still selling their idea as a product, if you did a tutorial on one of them then you are depriving them of selling their product as every one would be selling. If they quite selling that product then it would be ok to do the tutorial. If every time some one showed  some thing new and the next day some one did a tutorial on it then pretty soon people would quit showing their new stuff and things and the fourm could dry up. If you come up with a idea and want to share thats fine but it is not right to share some ones elses idea, that is theirs to share. If you can make thier product fine show it, use it, but keep the know how to your self.
Bob


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## redfishsc (Mar 29, 2008)

Steve, I would agree with you except these people are still selling their idea as a product, if you did a tutorial on one of them then you are depriving them of selling their product as every one would be selling. If they quite selling that product then it would be ok to do the tutorial. If every time some one showed  some thing new and the next day some one did a tutorial on it then pretty soon people would quit showing their new stuff and things and the fourm could dry up. If you come up with a idea and want to share thats fine but it is not right to share some ones elses idea, that is theirs to share. If you can make thier product fine show it, use it, but keep the know how to your self.
Bob 

[/quote]

Agreed, but with a twist. Personally I am not out to make a buck with my inventions, unless it happens to be a nice side benefit. Anything that CAN be made by the average joe, while having fun and saving money, is in my opinion fair game for all. The only difference is if there are copyright laws in effect, which there seem not to be in these cases. To me, if it is 1) possible, 2) possibly fun, 3) possibly money/time saving, 4) legal, then everyone could see it as fair game. 

With the creativity I have seen on this forum, let us all know that "Imitation is the best form of flattery".


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## sbell111 (Mar 29, 2008)

> _Originally posted by loglugger_Steve, I would agree with you except these people are still selling their idea as a product, if you did a tutorial on one of them then you are depriving them of selling their product as every one would be selling. If they quite selling that product then it would be ok to do the tutorial. If every time some one showed  some thing new and the next day some one did a tutorial on it then pretty soon people would quit showing their new stuff and things and the fourm could dry up. If you come up with a idea and want to share thats fine but it is not right to share some ones elses idea, that is theirs to share. If you can make thier product fine show it, use it, but keep the know how to your self.
> Bob


I would certainly agree with you if alamocdc was privy to Eagle's methods, but he isn't.  In my opinion, the fact that he was able to create the blank without Eagle's help means that the method is no longer a secret and could be shared.  

It should also be mentioned that I shared how I make molds similar to Gadget's a few weeks ago.  As far as I can tell, this hasn't stopped him from selling molds.

The way I see it, people may or may not buy a blank like the one discussed in this thread.  Their decision to buy a 'needed' item will always balance cost against difficulty/expense of making their own.  I don't believe that this decision is greatly altered by a tutorial.


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## GaryMGg (Mar 29, 2008)

> _Originally posted by sbell111_
> ...The way I see it...


[V]
The way I see it, you're trying to convince Billy to write a tutorial when he's already explained why he believes it's the wrong thing to do. Back off and let him be.


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## alphageek (Mar 29, 2008)

My 2 cents... Not knowing how Eagle did it and not knowing how Billy did it either----  They are perfectly right in keeping the exact to themselves if they so desire.   One of these days I want to try and create something like this too.   If you want a tutorial - start with Woodturning design magazine issue 14, page 36.  This is the first step a blank like this.


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## Ron in Drums PA (Mar 29, 2008)

http://woodturningdesign.com/issues/summer07.shtml


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## Tanner (Mar 29, 2008)

Great looking pen Billy!  Excellent craftsmanship!  I've seen on other posts where people poke and prod until the person shares his procedure. Poke...poke.


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## sbell111 (Mar 29, 2008)

> _Originally posted by GaryMGg_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If you believe that, you both missed my first post to the thread and missed the point of the other one.

As for whether I want the OP to write a tutorial, I could care less.  While I recognize the skill it likely took to create such a blank, I don't care for the look.  Therefore, I wouldn't make a similar pen even if a tutorial was shared.  

The point of my posts was to comment on the reasons to or not to share our techniques.


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## Tanner (Mar 29, 2008)

Hey Steve, I'm with you. I'm not a big fan of those blanks either.  It just seems a lot of people drool and fall all over themselves whenever they see one.  So why not share the process. I don't believe there is a patent on the process. There are three different tutorials in the library on Hidden, Recessed and Countersunk clips.  There are a few tutorials on PR casting and Segmenting Pens.  Warren is doing an awesome PR casting on Youtube.  From what Iâ€™ve seen this forum is for sharing ideas.  Many people have shared some really great ideas here, and I thank them for that.  If someone wants to keep secret their procedure, that's fine, it's their prerogative.  I do however thank the people that share their ideas and procedures to help us all get better at this craft.  I can't imagine where Iâ€™d be in pen turning if not for the tutorials I read from Don Ward and DVD's I purchased from Russ and BB, besides the huge wealth of information Iâ€™ve picked up here.  Thanks to many sharing their procedures I can make a pretty darn nice pen.


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## alamocdc (Mar 29, 2008)

Just to be clear, I never said I didn't have Eagle's help. I just didn't have it directly. I've read literally hundreds of his posts and we've communicated on a number of things in the past. If one pays close enough attention during these reads and encounters, little hints are "dropped out" here and there. This effort was simply derived from adding up the tidbits along the way.

FWIW, Ron's article in WTD will get you started concerning some of what I did. I'll leave it there and stand on my original reply concerning the current debate.

I will add one more note. And I feel it is rather important. One of the posters mentioned selling blanks such as this. To my knowledge, only Eagle sells them, and it will remain so. I have no intent to sell a blank of this nature... ever! And that too is my perogative.


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## GaryMGg (Mar 30, 2008)

I don't get it. Perhaps I've lost my reading comprehension ability.
First this:


> _Originally posted by Tanner_
> 
> Great looking pen Billy!  Excellent craftsmanship!...


Then this:


> _Originally posted by Tanner_
> 
> Hey ... I'm not a big fan of those blanks either....


[?] Did you like it or not? 

And Steve wrote this elsewhere when he first joined the IAP:


> _Originally posted by sbell111_
> ... You see, I don't consider us to be in direct competition with any of the other participants on this site.  *If we go to a big show and notice that someone is selling a pen that we don't have or has a popular wood that we don't, I'm going to suggest to Cathy they we get on that bandwagon and I'm not going to feel a darn bit bad about it *_emphasis added_.



I don't abide with that. I guess we live by a different code of ethics. To me, when you go to a big show and copy someone's idea for your shows you will see them again at the next big show and you will be in direct competition.
We don't have to agree; I'm confident we won't.

I've written tutorials albeit only one for the IAP. They're a lot of work.
Before someone asks someone else to write a tutorial, I'd like them to try this:
Start a time clock.
Take something in a pen you already make -- no matter how simple -- and write a full blown tutorial with photos. Get it ready for publication. Reread it and fix all the flaws. Repeat 'til someone else can replicate your work.  
Stop the clock.
Now, think about that effort before asking, "Where's the tutorial?"

I guess more than anything else, what's getting under my skin is the ubiquitous requests I see for tutorials wherein the poster seems to suggest it's an expectation rather than a gift someone presented.
Does anyone here regularly ask others for gifts, like at holidays or birthdays?!?
Does anyone go to work and say, "Hey, it's my birthday, where's my gifts?"
Well, that's how I perceive tutorials -- they're gifts from those who've made the EFFORTS.
Stick a fork in me, I'm done.


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## ed4copies (Mar 30, 2008)

As time has marched on, there are theories that the Electric light was made BEFORE Edison, some say Bell was NOT the first to create the telephone. In more than a few instances, patents have been granted to ONE inventor, while another applied just a few days later.  So, INDEPENDENT thinkers who like to tinker CAN come up with the same design INDEPENDENTLY.

In this case, no doubt Billy SAW Eagle's work and made every attempt to copy the result.  I saw Billy's pen yesterday, I immediately said, "Eagle sent you a blank??"  Since Eagle SELLS these blanks to other guys like us who MAKE pens, I think Billy has every right to make them for himself (as we all do), but I admire (and would emulate) Billy's ethics in keeping his methods to himself.

Eagle was undoubtedly the first (in this community) to SHOW this design.  In our own little way, he has the "copyright".  He certainly does NOT have the monetary ability to DEFEND his right.  But, I think MOST of us will grant him his right to SELL his blanks, without competing.  

Having SEEN Billy's pen, I can only say it is a great TRIBUTE to the work of Eagle.  And, that's the way Billy presented it.  Billy is PROUD of being able to produce a COPY for HIS OWN USE.  In my opinion, he GAINED in stature yesterday (I have never KNOWN Billy very well, so this is not meant to "slam" any prior behavior). I believe if we all live by the ethical standard being shown here, there will be squabbles, but there is no REAL harm done to whatever market Eagle (or any of the rest of us) enjoys.  

I hope this is clear--

Just in case: Billy, you're a class act, in my opinion.  AND the pen is really well done (but the woods are boring and you knew that!!)

FWIW


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## wolftat (Mar 30, 2008)

I like the pen, you did a nice job creating it. I will continue on with making my own pens my way and I hope you continue to do what makes you happy. All the rest of this is senseless arguing over nothing. I'm going to my shop now to make some of my own pens,instead of arguing over nothing. Keep making your pens your way Billy, like I said, nice job.


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## Tanner (Mar 30, 2008)

Hey Gary, just so you know, I said the same thing about a Gisi pen here awhile back.  They look great, excellent craftsmanship, a little too busy for my taste.  I believe I can say a pen looks good and not like it right?  I think Pamela Anderson looks good but I don't like her.  Roy posted a pen made from a blank Eagle made a few weeks back and I said he did a great job with it, however I felt it was a little busy for my taste.  I got a nice email from Eagle a few days later saying that's the first thing he said about the Gisi pens.  He said he changed his opinion when he saw them in person.  He seems like a real nice guy.

Sorry Mike, got my seems wrong.  I'll have to be carefull of that in the future.


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## IPD_Mrs (Mar 30, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Tanner_
> He seams like a real nice guy.



We are not too sure about Eagles seams, not sure he has any other than on his blanks, but he more than seems like a great guy to us.  We will probably get blasted for this but under that gruff surface,he is really a teddybear.

Ed you nailed it on the head with Billy.  The blank to us is bland because of the woods used.  He used scrap to learn the process as he said this was number four.  I am sure once Billy gets his technique down he will use complimentary contrasting colors, which is something that Eagle is very good at.  Kinda makes him an artist![]

Mike & Linda


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## Sfolivier (Mar 30, 2008)

I think this really boils down to why we are on this forum. I know it seems a simple question but it's rare we take the time to think about why we are posting and reading on this forum.

Personally, I'm here to share, to see other pens and try to apply new ideas to my designs. To learn tricks so I don't want to reinvent the wheel and can spend my time thinking about something new instead. There's nothing about my little workshop that I wouldn't explain and if one day I stop feeling this way. I'll leave the IAP. You can't be part of a discussion group if you don't want to discuss.

There are two "excuses" I consider valid to hold information back: the first is being a professional and making a living off pen making, the second having to tell about techniques that are not yours. It would be unfair to expect professionals to damage their income. It would also be unfair to hold professionals spending at least 8 hours a day making pens accountable to dilettantes who spend 2 hours a week doing so. And it would be unethical to spread secrets that aren't yours.

In this case, "Alamocdc" thinks he got enough from "Eagle" that he doesn't have the freedom to share his new trick. It's fine.

The only word of caution is that eventually, XYZ will start making the same blanks. It's only a matter of time, like everything else. And then everybody will forget those posts and know them as XYZ's blanks .

PS: And like many other, I appreciate the craftsmanship but have mixed feeling about intricate designs, beads, etc... I'm very spartan and like to let the trees make all the patterns  This style of blanks is nevertheless truly ADMIRABLE.


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## Ron in Drums PA (Mar 30, 2008)

> _Originally posted by alamocdc_
> 
> FWIW, Ron's article in WTD will get you started...



That's the whole idea, to get people started on an idea in hopes that they can take off from there and add to the concept. 

I used the same technique on jewelry boxes and picture frames to join miters and decorate the corners. I learned how to do this from reading a book. The only real difference on the pen is I used a lathe to make it round.  

Eagle's pen are in a class all by themselves. Just like there are millions of artists that have placed paint on a canvas and only a rare few who can turn paint and canvas into a masterpiece.


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## sbell111 (Mar 30, 2008)

> _Originally posted by GaryMGg_
> 
> I don't get it. Perhaps I've lost my reading comprehension ability. ...
> 
> ...


So, you're taking the position that you shouldn't take steps to improve your practices?  You shouldn't learn from others that are doing things better?  I guess we don't agree.

BTW, a better place to discuss this would have been in the original thread, not off-topic in this one.

Let me know if you have trouble with any of my other posts.  (Did you reaally go back and read all of them?)





> _Originally posted by GaryMGg_I've written tutorials albeit only one for the IAP. They're a lot of work.
> Before someone asks someone else to write a tutorial, I'd like them to try this:
> Start a time clock.
> Take something in a pen you already make -- no matter how simple -- and write a full blown tutorial with photos. Get it ready for publication. Reread it and fix all the flaws. Repeat 'til someone else can replicate your work.
> ...


I don't understand where you are coming from.  It appears that you are (purposely or not) mistating our posts.  No one has taken the position that anyone should HAVE to write a tutorial.

The OP appeared to originally be taking the position that he was not privy to Eagle's methods, but would not explain his method because Eagle was using the method.  (I found this logic to be faulty and stated as much.)  As it turns out, the OP was privy to Eagle's method.  Therefore, his decision makes much more sense.


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## sbell111 (Mar 30, 2008)

I just wanted to add that when people ask for a tutorial, they are complimenting the person on a job well done.  Apparently, some members (who do not wish to learn from others, apparently) believe that these requests are not a compliment, but are some kind of insult.  Strange.


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## ed4copies (Mar 30, 2008)

Steve,

The "tutorial" debate raged long ago.  It degenerated into several personal attacks.  Some of us are very sensitive to the possibility of a "rerun" and would really LOVE to AVOID it.

So, what you SAY may not be nearly as pointed as what SOME of us READ!!!

Just a FWIW.  Let's not over-react. OK???


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## alamocdc (Mar 30, 2008)

Ed, I think I know Eagle just well enough to know that he is actually laughing at all of this. And in some strange and twisted way that actually puts a smile on my face. Oh, and I was actually quite humbled when you told me what you did when you first saw it. As for the bland woods, wait for the next one.[8D]


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## GaryMGg (Mar 30, 2008)

Lessee,



> _Originally posted by Tanner_
> ...I think Pamela Anderson looks good but I don't like her....


Point well made; I'll buy that. I suppose I expected `nice work but not for me' to be in the same post. I took your follow-up for backpedaling. Mea culpa. I apologize.

--------


> _Originally posted by sbell111_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No, I'm taking the position that you ARE in direct competition with the other turner at a show you're both at, and I'm NOT taking a competitor's work and competing with him on it when he's present.
I would use the idea in a different venue wherein he isn't present because I don't see that as direct competition.



> _Originally posted by sbell111_
> BTW, a better place to discuss this would have been in the original thread, not off-topic in this one.


I think it's related.


> _Originally posted by sbell111_
> ...Did you really [sic] go back and read all of them?


I didn't have to; I remembered that post.
I simply looked it up to be certain NOT to take it out of context.

_Stuff about tutorials elided ..._


> _Originally posted by sbell111_
> I don't understand where you are coming from.  It appears that you are (purposely or not) mistating our posts.  No one has taken the position that anyone should HAVE to write a tutorial.


Now I believe you've misread me. Perhaps I should've started with


> I guess more than anything else, what's getting under my skin is the ubiquitous requests I see for tutorials wherein the poster seems to suggest it's an expectation rather than a gift someone presented


 and then given the illustration about how much time is involved and that it's a present.
The tone * I read into it* was more one of expectation. It may not be what you intended to communicate; it may just be what I got out of it.

Be that as it may, I'm not alone in the feeling that lots of folks ask for a tutorial everytime they see something new to them. I've had several members, new and old, communicate to me about it -- and, not in a positive manner.

It's my *opinion* asking someone to write a tutorial puts them on the spot.
It's a lot of work and is something that should result from their choice only.
The request for tutorials should come from Jeff and the moderators and should be done in private or as a general reminder to all of us. In the final analysis, the decision to write one should be a voluntary act attained without any coercion.
I believe it's fine to write one on anything that isn't someone else's work -- I expect we're in agreement on what's reasonably one's own idea to share and what isn't.
For instance, someone posts a gorgeous inlay cross similar to Eagle's. That person has clearly figured out what it takes to make the inlay and cross with exacting, repeatable accuracy. If they decided to write a tut., so be it. As a woodworker I know how it's done and I've discussed it with Eagle, thus I'll never ink it.

I've probably read every tutorial posted.
I've only written one because I don't do anything terribly different than others.
In fact, I've copied or modified numerous works others have made available here.
I've edited several written by others -- that in itself is a good bit of work. I'd do it again because it's good for the members here.
I've only made one pen that's probably really unique; it's in my album and anyone can copy it if they want to go to the effort. It's not rocket science.



> _Originally posted by sbell111_] ...
> Apparently, some members (who do not wish to learn from others, apparently) believe that these requests are not a compliment, but are some kind of insult. ...


That's childish.
I may hold an unpopular opinion regarding the _requests for tutorials_. I stand by my opinion. However, I'll let my post history speak for itself when it comes to sharing ideas, techniques, tools, and tips.


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## ldb2000 (Mar 30, 2008)

Hi All
My 2 cents on this is that the tutorials are wonderful and helpful but only as a guide...I want to make MY pens . If I see a pen at a show that I like I will admire it and try and use the ideas to make my own version but not to copy it ... the last thing I want to do is make XYZ's pen I want my Own creation .
There are enough ways to make a pen that we can all have original creations that our customers will come to know as OURS , remember ... most of the pens we make are still based on the same handfull of kits that everybody else uses so it all comes down to craftmanship and originality and that can only be gained by thought and practice .
If you really like the blank ....look at it and figure out how it was made then try it your way


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## sbell111 (Mar 31, 2008)

> _Originally posted by GaryMGg_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by sbell111_
> ...


If I understand your post, you are stating that it's completely OK to learn from other people at a show, but at future shows, you'll have to remember to leave out certain items so that you are not in competition with that person on the chance that they are at the same future show?  I'm sorry, but that makes no sense to me.





> _Originally posted by GaryMGg_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by sbell111_
> ...


So what?  We are all adults.  We are still free to share or not share, either in the thread or in a tutorial.





> _Originally posted by GaryMGg_
> It's my *opinion* asking someone to write a tutorial puts them on the spot.
> It's a lot of work and is something that should result from their choice only.


No one is making any effort to take anyone's choice away.





> _Originally posted by GaryMGg_
> The request for tutorials should come from Jeff and the moderators and should be done in private or as a general reminder to all of us. In the final analysis, the decision to write one should be a voluntary act attained without any coercion.


I'm sorry, but that is something I don't agree with.  In order to further probe our difference in opinion, please explain the difference between these three posts:

Wow!  Nice pen.  How did you make it?
Wow!  Nice pen.  How about a tutorial?
Help!  I racked my brain without success and searched everywhere.  Can someone explain how to XXX


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## sbell111 (Mar 31, 2008)

&lt;I split this out into it's own post, since the forum software did something strage with the really long reply.&gt;


> _Originally posted by GaryMGg_
> I believe it's fine to write one on anything that isn't someone else's work -- I expect we're in agreement on what's reasonably one's own idea to share and what isn't.
> 
> For instance, someone posts a gorgeous inlay cross similar to Eagle's. That person has clearly figured out what it takes to make the inlay and cross with exacting, repeatable accuracy. If they decided to write a tut., so be it. As a woodworker I know how it's done and I've discussed it with Eagle, thus I'll never ink it.


So basically, you are in complete agreement with me.  It would have made a cleaner thread if you had just stated so rather than to pick arguments.





> _Originally posted by GaryMGg_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by sbell111_]
> ...


I'm childish, but you're trying to pick arguments with someone you actually agree with is not?  Some would call that childish and trolling.


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## broitblat (Mar 31, 2008)

Well... You never know what's going to generate a whole lot of discussion, do you? 

All I can say is that I appreciate the designs and ideas I see here with whatever amount of detail folks are willing to share.  When I see something I consider interesting, I may try and figure out how it was done.  If there is a tutorial, I may or may not read/follow it because, for my personal entertainment, I consider figuring it out to be part of the fun.

Admittedly, there have been plenty of cases where I didn't manage to figure it out on my own (and even more where, even having figured it out, I wasn't able to execute the design satisfactorily), but that doesn't make me feel any less appreciation for the person that posted the picture(s) in the first place.

So thanks to everyone for thought provoking designs, techniques, and discussions!

  -Barry


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## sbell111 (Mar 31, 2008)

> _Originally posted by GaryMGg_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by sbell111_
> ...


 Since you believe it to be related, you should have posted my statement in it's original context, rather than parsing it down until it lost all meaning.

Here's more of that same post:





> _Originally posted by sbell111_
> Regarding 'stolen ideas', if a person is concerned about that, they shouldn't post their work online. Personally, if I see that someone has made a cool pen, I'm going to think about how we could make something similar. If I figure it out and Cathy can make it, we'll sell the thing and not feel bad about it.
> 
> You see, I don't consider us to be in direct competition with any of the other participants on this site. If we go to a big show and notice that someone is selling a pen that we don't have or has a popular wood that we don't, I'm going to suggest to Cathy they we get on that bandwagon and I'm not going to feel a darn bit bad about it and I would totally expect anyone else to do the exact same thing.


Since you are so interested in that post, let's discuss it further.

1)  I don't consider any other participants on this site to be in *direct* competition with us. -  I'll stand by this statement.  Your sales don't affect mine, in any way, and mine doesn't affect yours.  In fact, I'll take this statement one step further.  In general, I don't think of other pen makers at a show to be our direct competition.  The way most people shop at a show, they will either buy or not when they get to your booth, but they will rarely come back to you once they pass you.  (It happens, but not often.)  Therefore, the crafter next to us selling scroll sawed chotchkies is more of a direct competitor to us than the pen maker across the way.  My conversations with other pen turners at shows make me believe that my opinion on this is shared.

2)  If we notice that someone is selling a pen style that we don't have or materials that we don't use, we might look into getting that style or material and we would have no guilt in doing so.  -  I'll stand by that one, also.  Who wouldn't???


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## gerryr (Mar 31, 2008)

The way I view tutorials may or may not be the same as others.  I think there are a very few instances where a tutorial is really necessary, like how to set up a pressure pot or how to do powder coating.  Beyond that I view the requests for tutorials as nothing less than someone wanting to profit from someone else's effort.  I also think the statements like "I don't want to re-invent the wheel" are just excuses for not wanting to put any effort into creating something or even the exploration.  They want to arrive at the destination without actually making the journey.


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## ed4copies (Mar 31, 2008)

Reflecting on tutorials and shows:

When I started making pens over a decade ago, the "tutorial" was a book, usually by Dick Sing (for me).  IF I attempted and failed, I bore the cost of that failure - kit costs were about $7 and materials another $3 or so.  So, every ruined pen added $10 to my "education cost".

NOw, I turn a pretty decent pen.  In contributing to this site, I am already relieving others of the mistakes I made to GET to this level, and the cost I bore in that journey, which was, at least HUNDREDS of dollars in wasted pens.

So, when I make an outstanding pen, it results from my "education" and has a cost that is attached.  SO, IF I choose to tell you how to avoid that cost, you should consider the VALUE of the gift you are getting........OR, if I choose NOT to tell you how, you will, most probably have a number of unsuccessful attempts that will make the resulting product more VALUABLE to YOU&gt;  In other words, we will BOTH see the resulting pen as being HIGHER PRICED.  That means I won't run into you at a craft show, selling it for half my price, cause it HAD no PAIN, to you!

While this is WAY off this thread:  I see LOTS of people return to my booth. The "craft show professional shoppers" come early the first morning, SEE every booth (rapidly) and take booth NUMBERS. (I have my business cards available with my booth number on the back-I've played this game!)  Those people RETURN to the booths they consider the "best" and buy there.  Sorry, if you don't "make the cut".

As always, I PRESENT this as a logical reason, IF you read it as an attack, I truly apologize. It is not my intention to belittle ANYONE!


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## GaryMGg (Mar 31, 2008)

> _Originally posted by alamocdc_



Billy,
My most sincere apologies to you for posting my opinion and opening the floodgates, dragging your wonderful work into a guttered thread.
That's the last thing I'll say in this thread.
Kind regards.
G


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## alamocdc (Mar 31, 2008)

Gary, you owe me no apologies. You simply stated your opinion concerning my decision not to do a tutorial. Others have made their opposing opinion quite plane. And that's okay too. I actually knew that this thread would open a can of worms... Yes, I enjoy stirring the stick on ocassion.[}] Saturday, Ed and I had a discussion concerning some of the issues that have been debated here in the last two days. And his post above details some of the rationale we talked about. There are those who feel no guilt in taking the ideas of others and "competing" with them. More power to 'em, but I cannot function that way. Let's say for example that Dawn actually shared with me how she makes her dichroic glass pen blanks (she hasn't, and I would never ask). Now let's say I find myself in the same show as Ed and Dawn. How would I NOT be competing with them? Denying that is pure rationalization. Period. Ed doesn't want that kind of competition. It takes food off the table. And I don't blame him a bit. 

Let me take a moment to share a personal business experience that proves this point. Ten years ago I was one of about 18 miniature custom diecast shops in the country that produced QUALITY diecast customs. Most of us couldn't afford the cost of our own domain back then, but eBay provided us a great place to reach our customers (collectors). This lasted several years until more and more people tried to capitalize on our success. Each shop WAS in competition with the other, but we each had our specialties that appealed to the collectors so things were good. We did real body work on the vehicles, removing casting lines, filling pits, etc. We used rivets quality automotive paints, real rubber tires and rivets to reassemble the vehicle so it was as close to "factory" as possible. But the new kids on the block (so to speak) were producing cheesy computer generated graphics, not changing the tires & wheels, and using epoxy (JB Weld at best) to hold the vehicles together. It only took about three months before the collectors quit buying customs on eBay. The death of the custom shop reaching the collecting multitudes was nearly immediate. Even if they'd dealt with us before, they had been "burned" by the "copiers" and were not willing to risk their hard earned cash for further gambles (in their eyes).

Please note: The point of my example here deals is meant to deal more with competition, than the lack of quality by others that was our demise. AND this is not to say that other penturners who copy something they've seen produce a lesser quality product. My point is that even though the 18 or so shops were competing with each other, we each had our area of specialization that drew in some of the same collectors. For example, one guy was a graphics artist at Disney and produced some of the most awesome flames I've ever seen. Another specialized in the VW Bus. Another specialized in led sleds, etc. The same holds true for SOME penturners. Some have their areas of focus... Ed, Jonathan, Chris Thompson, the Gisis, Eagle, Anthony... the list goes on. And if you replicated what they did and entered the same show you WOULD be competing with them. Would it hurt them? Maybe not, but it might and it could.

Some don't care. They're only in it for themselves. But I can't operate that way. I like to be able to sleep at night and I have to look at my mug every morning when I wash my face and brush my teeth (Hah! You thought I was gonna say shave, didn't you?).


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## ed4copies (Mar 31, 2008)

Nah,

I've seen you.  SHAVE isn't in the cards!!

Thanks Billy!


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## wdcav1952 (Mar 31, 2008)

This thread has had some interesting twists and turns.  One leaves me confused.  Why is a non-turner so passionate about the subject of tutorials?

http://www.penturners.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=32301


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## gerryr (Mar 31, 2008)

Very well said Billy.


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## DCBluesman (Mar 31, 2008)

> _Originally posted by wdcav1952_
> 
> Why is a non-turner so passionate about the subject of tutorials?
> 
> http://www.penturners.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=32301



It should be obvious from these two statements, William.  





> If I figure it out and Cathy can make it, we'll sell the thing and not feel bad about it.
> 
> If we go to a big show and notice that someone is selling a pen that we don't have or has a popular wood that we don't, I'm going to suggest to Cathy they we get on that bandwagon and I'm not going to feel a darn bit bad about it and I would totally expect anyone else to do the exact same thing.



It's all about the money and making a return on someone else's work.  I find this attitude to be enough to cause me to lose my lunch.  *Whatever happened to integrity?*  I guess it's now for sale at craft shows in certain parts of the country.  Sheesh!


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## Tanner (Mar 31, 2008)

I for one appreciate the tutorials on this site.  I surely don't feel anybody asking for a tutorial is doing anything wrong.  If they never asked for a tutorial, we wouldnâ€™t have any in the library.  It is however the persons perogative whether to do one or not.  My job keeps me working long hours.  I get the time to make one maybe two pens per week.  I also donâ€™t sell my pens, I just give them away.  The tutorials are highly valuable to me.  I appreciate every effort that goes into each tutorial.  If not for the tutorials all my pens would look like my first one.  For me it truly is a valuable gift.  Please keep them coming.  

Gerry, you really shouldn't be so hard on yourself.[:0]



> _Originally posted by gerryr_
> 
> Beyond that I view the requests for tutorials as nothing less than someone wanting to profit from someone else's effort.  I also think the statements like "I don't want to re-invent the wheel" are just excuses for not wanting to put any effort into creating something or even the exploration.  They want to arrive at the destination without actually making the journey.



http://www.penturners.org/forum/topic.asp?ARCHIVE=true&TOPIC_ID=9659


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## Ron in Drums PA (Mar 31, 2008)

There are allot of naive comments in this thread.

Here is a challenge

Name one profitable idea that has not been copied.


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## gerryr (Mar 31, 2008)

That was 3 years ago and since then I have done exactly one such pen.  Last I checked, it was still acceptable for people to change their mind based on whatever reason they choose.


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## sbell111 (Mar 31, 2008)

> _Originally posted by wdcav1952_
> 
> This thread has had some interesting twists and turns.  One leaves me confused.  Why is a non-turner so passionate about the subject of tutorials?
> 
> http://www.penturners.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=32301


Actually, I have turned a couple of pens since that post, but Cathy and her pop are always going to turn more.

I also wouldn't say I'm passionate about the issue, but I think we all participate on this site to get better and to help others, therefore, we should all be 'passionate' about helping one another, in my opinion.

Also, I've never had a problem with a person not sharing information and wouldn't have an issue if any individual decided not to create a tutorial.  My only issue in this thread is that the OP's logic seemed off, based on his initial few posts.


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## sbell111 (Mar 31, 2008)

> _Originally posted by DCBluesman_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Tanner (Mar 31, 2008)

Gerry, all Iâ€™m' saying is that some of us that don't have your knowledge and experience may need a little help.

You must have changed your mind in the last 1 1/2 years.

http://www.penturners.org/forum/topic.asp?ARCHIVE=true&TOPIC_ID=18959&whichpage=2#193659


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## gerryr (Mar 31, 2008)

Sometimes those comments are meant as a joke.  I have even said the same to Eagle, because he knows it's a joke.


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## ed4copies (Mar 31, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Ron in Drums PA_
> 
> There are allot of naive comments in this thread.
> 
> ...



Ron,
You are correct, kind of.

Give me the nearly two decades that Xerox enjoyed a monopoly, due to the patents they held.  THEN, you may steal all my technology (as many companies did)!  By then, I think I can "live happily ever after" on the several hundred billion in profit.

Penmaking has far fewer "barriers to entry" than copier-making, but the premise is similar.  Backward engineering is MUCH EASIER than original thought and creativity.  There SHOULD be a reward for the "creative" above and beyond the "copier". (BTW, I am not creative)


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## sbell111 (Mar 31, 2008)

> _Originally posted by ed4copies_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think that everyone respects your work and the position that you are taking.  I don't believe that anyone is taking the position that anyone should have to post a tutorial for any method that they'd rather keep to themselves.  That being said, I think that you would agree that if a person posted a tutorial, others would be free to learn from it and sell any future work that benefitted from that tutorial.  I'm not sure why this idea makes some individuals want to rolf, but I think that they are lying to themselves.


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## Ron in Drums PA (Mar 31, 2008)

> _Originally posted by ed4copies_
> 
> 
> 
> ...



But who should give "The Reward"?
What should the reward be? 15 minutes of fame? A million dollars?

Look at MP3 players, iPod wasn't the first player on the market and the company that sells iPods was started by three kids in a garage that took off-the-shelf electronic parts and hobbled them together on a circuit board. 

Every picture that we post of something we turned will be copied, its a fact of life. And almost all of the "New" ideas where created from old ideas.

Bottom line is this: 
Woodturners of all kinds are the most generous people I know when it comes to sharing ideas, more generous than any other vocation/hobby around. Even if turners don't write tutorials, they will still will help other turners figure things out. How great is that?


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## DCBluesman (Mar 31, 2008)

> _Originally posted by sbell111_
> 
> You clearly don't understand our motivations for turning pens or selling them.





> I'm not sure why this idea makes some individuals want to rolf, but I think that they are lying to themselves.



Well, Steve, you are as entitled to an opinion as any one.  

I understand your motivation in starting pen turning *may have been* to give your father in law something to do, but your words since then have proven that you absolutely intend to take ideas that are profitable and not yours and to then profit from them.  Whether or not you are capable of producing a profit a profit does not change your motive.   Your double-talk does not change your words or the meaning.  I don't pretend to understand your wife's reasons or your father-in-law's reasons, but your words tell their own story.  As for my comment regarding losing my lunch, I stand by it.  You motivation to copy from others for your own personal gain and/or aggrandizement is nauseating to me.  

As for tutorials, I would dare say I have contributed plenty to this community in terms of tips and tutorials.  I do not mind sharing and, in fact, I enjoy it.  I do mind the sulf-indulgent attitude of a *few* mis-directed individuals who think *copying* the work of another is an acceptable practice.  I further mind the all-too-common attitude that tutorials are somehow a right.  The prevalent attitude of a *few* over-zealous proselytizers is a large reason for many of our seasoned veterans ceasing to post.  We get sick and tired of reading the rantings from a *tiny but vocal minority* of self-important individuals who feel that membership comes with entitlements.


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## wdcav1952 (Mar 31, 2008)

> _Originally posted by Tanner_
> 
> Gerry, all Iâ€™m' saying is that some of us that don't have your knowledge and experience may need a little help.
> 
> ...



Tanner, I am sure you just forgot to read the first page of the thread you posted the link to.  On that page you would note that Curtis, the original poster stated that he was working on a tutorial.  That puts Gerry's comment in a somewhat different context as he was commenting on a tutorial already promised rather than the way you spun the reference.


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## sbell111 (Mar 31, 2008)

> _Originally posted by DCBluesman_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Clearly, you have chosen to read more into my posts than is actually there.  I suspect that you already had a chip on your shoulder and now you are trying to mold my posts to fit your preconceptions.  I suggest that rather than doing this, you simply read the posts.  There's no hidden meaning.

Also, before you call other people self-important, over-zealous, misdirected, et al, I suggest that you read your own posts.  You probably will need some compazine after wading through that dreck.


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## ldb2000 (Mar 31, 2008)

Can't we all just get along [}]


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## Sfolivier (Mar 31, 2008)

Listen, at this point, I barely remember who made the pen. I totally don't remember who's accused of being selfish, who's accused of stealing ideas or who is what. Unless you really have an outcome in mind, could you just stop this discussion? Before you pick a fight, you should always ask yourself why you're doing so and what you are fighting for. I don't see any point to this thread anymore and would even like to see it closed.

It's pretty clear that nobody's idea will prevail, that nobody will look worse than the other and that nobody will have an epiphany. Can't we just *stop this B.S.* now? You're *all* starting to look bad. If anything, you owe it to our host who is trying to run a forum about woodworking. Not a forum about pointless arguments between people of the same trade, or at least with the same hobby.


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## alamocdc (Mar 31, 2008)

This has now become the thread that just wouldn't die. Everyone who has posted has their opinions and that isn't about to change any time soon. You all know where I stand. And after receiving a phone call from an old friend tonight, I'm even more steadfast. To that end, I'm requesting that the moderators lock this thread. Further rattling of swords will not bring anything but more rhetoric and useless banter.


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## MesquiteMan (Mar 31, 2008)

Some folks just don't know when to stop.  I am sorry I am having to lock another thread here at IAP.


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