# SHOW OFF YOUR PENS -new category?



## BradG (Sep 9, 2015)

Hello Chaps
I know this conversation has come up before, and there was a lot of debate about it, but im digging it up again :redface:

As much as I love browsing through the SOYP category, its too busy. Given the influx of new members. It feels like once in a while a pen pops up which is evident that this person put a lot more time into it compared to the average joe, and it's lost in a sea of conventionally made pens.

There's no telling how many works of art I've missed because of this because its dropped off the first page as I don't get to browse the listings every day.

I would like to see a Kitless Show off your pens category, and here are my reasons why.


Beforehand, we debated an advanced SOYP category. This raised alot of questions, as to what would actually qualify as an advanced pen when you get down to the nitty gritty, possibly leading to confusion as to where people can post. who would police it etc. a Kitless category is exactly that. Kitless. no pens which are made using pieces from kits, internally or otherwise, maybe with the exception to a key component if it's felt it would be beneficial to the vast majority. Cutting threads with taps & dies isn't difficult regardless. Some may see that as unfair, but the truth of it is I would love to push more people over the edge into the world of kitless. 

Wouldn't you rather have a category of pens being showcased where you know each one which has been made has had a considerable amount of time & effort put into it? This new category, seeing as going kitless is considered advanced in itself, should be full of jaw dropping pens in an easy to find location.



So there you have it.. that's me getting the topic off my chest, and clearly my two cents 

Your thoughts?


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## PenPal (Sep 9, 2015)

How about a section for you and Skippy and the Japanese crafted urushi finished and Jonathons castings and on and on call it one offs or very special much like the hardly used tag of Penwizard that has hung in there so long.

Mind you everything fits in the Show us your pens far as I can make out they all are used to write with.

Advanced Pen Making does fit.

I am a fan of your work and that of so many others.

Kind regards Peter.


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## skiprat (Sep 9, 2015)

I'm not so sure that another 'elitist' forum is needed. We already have the Advanced forum. I used to post stuff there but stopped when I realised that I just 'assumed' the stuff I had done was advanced in some way. I dont use it anymore.

What message does it send to our members if there was a forum where all the kitless pens were shown, so that we didn't have to waste time scrolling through the regular stuff? I think a negative one. 
I love looking through the SOYP forum. In fact most of my inspiration comes from there. Truth be told, more kitless pens are identical than kit pens. Also, there are many many far better kit pens than some of the kitless monstrosities we see.

If a new forum were needed, the I would actually like to see one on CNC, or your specialty, chemical etching and even one for PC.  But only to group the threads, not to make it a special club where only certain people could post. 
We have had new forums.....segmenting......Beall Wizard....ghost towns.
If you think a forum for kitless pens would be well used, then take a look at the Pmg forum. You could hear a mouse fart, it's so quiet.:wink:

You can customise your setting to view just the forums you like and ignore the rest. I dont see the Marketplace or most of the vendor forums, for instance

LOL, in fact if I could make one change here it would be a ' reverse ignore' function, where I could make my posts invisible to some...:biggrin:


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## BradG (Sep 9, 2015)

The message I would hope it would send is up your game. Negative? perhaps. inspiring motivation to push their skill sets further? questionable.

We have the advanced forum yes, but to me I've always viewed that as somewhere to ask questions relating to advanced methods, not a place to show the pens off. Besides from that you're machining one of the toughest metals lol... if that's not advanced with the finish you get I don't know what is :biggrin:

Sorry skip, I just don't enjoy flicking through loads of basic pens anymore. If there was a filter I could apply so I could only see pens which floated my boat I would do.

I understand your views that it may be a ghost category. good point, maybe there wouldn't be enough being submitted to it, but if we don't try these things it will never evolve.

Perhaps a category no members can post to, like a hall of fame. If a pen pops up which gets multiple pages of comments and likes, a moderator/admin could move it to that "Hall of fame" category. I think that would group all of the excelling pens together without creating the divide of an advanced/kitless category.

Jeff, im guessing it would be over stretching to alter the site to do that automatically....  if likecount>50 then move post.


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## jttheclockman (Sep 9, 2015)

Hello Brad

 This is going to be long so have a cup of JO handy.
We sort of had this conversation before but i will put my thoughts here too being you started the thread. I know you are looking to try to separate the elite pens from the, don't know how to gently say it, everyday done that pens. To use kit-less as the basis would in my eyes do a disservice to others. I have seen plenty of kit-less pens here that are just as plain and simple. Take a piece of acrylic and put some threads on it and call it a fountain pen. Yes it takes some skill to do this and yes you need taps and dies. But in the end there is no WOW factor.

There are very few members still here who are the extreme pen makers that whenever they post a pen you just know it will be special. You are in that category. There are those that make pens using tools and techniques that not many people here can afford and again you are in that category. Don't get me wrong, this is a great thing. It shows us mortals what can be achieved and shows us things that we would be hardpressed to accomplish. This is why those pens are elite and stand out as much.

But here is my side of this. I think you over look the fact that a kit can be used as a tool to make that special pen also. You talk about time making the pen. Well it can take just as much time to make a blank that sits on a kit pen too. Myself and many others have proven that over the years here. I try to make blanks that just about any pen maker can do given they have some basic tools and knowledge to use them. My tools are not extreme cnc machines, not even metal lathes and for sure no acid was used. But like others i think we get there.

The next point and I think this is where we both agree and want to stress to so many others that you too can come up with that special pen. Weather it is with a kit, or kitless. All it takes is imagination and we all have that in us. Think outside the box. Take the pens you see here and improve them or design a pen around the idea. There is no one here taking out patents that I know of. There is nothing proprietary here that I have seen in all my years here and that includes the watch part pens. But most of all try to make pens with your own ideas. This is what makes this hobby grow and it has grown in leaps and bounds since I first turned a stick of wood some 10 years ago. There were many innovators and artisans that passed through these halls and have moved on. You Brad would have enjoyed them. 

My last point and i have beaten this horse to death but to me it is relevant in this topic. I too would like to archive those elite pens  and save them for those that follow can easily find them and enjoy the eye candy. These are pens that jump off the page and are always front page worthy. These are the pens with the WOW factor. Yes you are correct when you say a fantastic pen can get lost in the pages real quick because of so many others wanting to show their work and there is nothing wrong with that. But the problem is they get lost for good. I have brought up many examples of pens that just got lost that were over the top pens. I tried to bring them to life again but some times I had to do some extensive research just to find them. This brings me to my point and here is the bad words again"Hall of Fame" pens. To me this is the way to save and preserve those special pens that make us use the word WOW when we see them. It has been discussed and debated here as to the problems setting this up and egos that would be hurt. But to me this all harkens back to what you Brad are trying to achieve. Maybe I am off base here but these are my thoughts on the subject.

OK we now return to our regularly scheduled programing Thanks for reading.


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## maxwell_smart007 (Sep 9, 2015)

You'd still miss the posts from humble people who don't think that their work is special enough...

You'd also miss posts from people who made an amazing blank, or adapted a kit, and just didn't meet the 'kitless' criteria. 

There'd also be a big issue regarding how often it gets used.  I think you'll find it turns into the Bealle Pen Wizard sub-forum scenario...

I do like a "hall of fame" - but I don't know how you'd maintain/determine/create consensus on what gets put into it.  

Just my personal opinion.


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## Curly (Sep 9, 2015)

Would todays wow pen be removed when it becomes commonplace and ho hum next season?


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## jttheclockman (Sep 9, 2015)

Curly said:


> Would todays wow pen be removed when it becomes commonplace and ho hum next season?



Not sure why you posted that question Pete and or if you were trying for humor, but I am guessing it was directed at me. The simple answer is never. It shows the evolution of pen making. Every pen made has been some descendant of another pen. If you read my post you will see where I encourage others to take the pens we see and improve on them or add their own ideas. It is what pen making is all about. There is just too little of the thinking outside the box here and elsewhere. That is why pens become commonplace or HO-HUM so fast.


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## BradG (Sep 9, 2015)

jttheclockman said:


> H
> I too would like to archive those elite pens  and save them for those that follow can easily find them and enjoy the eye candy. These are pens that jump off the page and are always front page worthy. These are the pens with the WOW factor. Yes you are correct when you say a fantastic pen can get lost in the pages real quick because of so many others wanting to show their work and there is nothing wrong with that. But the problem is they get lost for good.



That hits it on the head. the popular wow pens need to be grouped together from the masses.



maxwell_smart007 said:


> I do like a "hall of fame" - but I don't know how you'd maintain/determine/create consensus on what gets put into it.
> 
> Just my personal opinion.



After speaking with a couple of people I agree that a "hall of fame" approach would be a better approach for grouping them as that way everyone is still posting in the SOYP category. Id hope it could be determined by a bit of common sense. If the post is overly popular (they stick out like a sore thumb with multiple pages of comments, dozens of likes, and comments to suit) Move a copy of the thread to the preserving category. who does it? yes I appreciate thats something yourself & Jeff would need to figure out and not an easy answer im sure.



Curly said:


> Would todays wow pen be removed when it becomes commonplace and ho hum next season?


If a pen is that good, then it won't be boring a year later. besides, it's a forum. why remove them? they will just increment the page count just the same as it does in the SOYP category now.


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## Kenny Durrant (Sep 9, 2015)

I debated responding and I hope I don't upset anyone. I'm hoping I just misinterpreted what you were saying. At first I thought you had a good point that sometimes pens were pushed through quickly because of newer post being added. Then in you last post you said you were tired looking at basic pens then mentioned a hall of fame category. I thought the Home Page Featured Photo was sort of a hall of fame spotlight. As far as basic pens I thought that was were most of us started so we should look back at ourselves and maybe mentor the new turners when we can. I also believe we all have different capabilities and some will never be able to do things others can no matter how hard they try. Also we all have different amounts of money we can spend on equipment so some can't afford to turn what other turn. Once again I don't want to offend anyone but I hate to see people forget where they started and start to look down on the ones they leave behind. If I misread your thoughts  I apologize. Thanks


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## BradG (Sep 9, 2015)

Kenny, no offence taken it's a public forum and everyone;s welcome to pitch in their two cents 

I'm trying to rock the boat a bit and shake things up so I wouldn't be suprised if a feather is ruffled along the way.

This site is fantastic and has everything on it. It's also growing pretty rapidly so perhaps revisiting how things are organised for the sake of being able to find things in the long run should be considered.


My first and last point are related. yes they are pushed through quickly and I don;t feel that sometimes they are given the exposure they deserve. The second point about a hall of fame is just throwing out ideas trying to find a solution. In an ideal world I would like to see a new category for these pens to be grouped together. if someone can come up with a better idea im all ears.

In your comment, you mention lots of people have lots of different capabilities though I don't quite agree with that. I could make a kitless pen without a metal lathe and etch it just the same. it's not our tools what limit us but the will to attempt and learn new methods. Of course if the said craftsman is quite happy with what he or she is doing then who am I to say otherwise


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## Curly (Sep 9, 2015)

Curly said:


> Would todays wow pen be removed when it becomes commonplace and ho hum next season?



My question wasn't directed at anyone in particular nor meant as a joke. What I was trying to get at is that the pens that are innovative now become commonplace here as others make their own versions, copies if you will, and they no longer generate the same intrest. 

When the first watch part pens hit the screen they wowed everyone. Now they are made by many and would new versions warrant continued inclusion in a special section? Same goes for the metal tape pens. At the moment there is a cool pen shown with pen drawn art on it. Will people still want to see them in a special section when there are 5 or 10 blank makers selling them and those pens are being posted in the "special" section? 

The same would apply a Custom/Kitless or even Themed Pen area. There are going to be pens posted that while now, are rare, and get overlooked by occasional lookers, (that would be Brad :wink: ) in the future there may be dozens a day that are of less interest, making it hard to find the gems. I would love a reverse filter that I could set to clean out the stuff I don't want to see but then I would likely miss those hidden gems.

So I have to say that I don't want to see the SOYP subdivided. I have no objection of a section where select and inovative work is shown but that would be up to the mods to populate.


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## plantman (Sep 9, 2015)

Brad; I see your point, but you are among the top 1 or 2 % of the pen makers on this site. The other 98% of us will never achieve this stature. Not that we shouldn't try, but as John T stated, many of us don't have the tools, knowledge, skills, or money to produce the quality of pens that you and others in your group can. This division of talent reminds me of the debate we had a while back as to who or what makes a "master" pen maker. Or who qualifies as being good enough to be excepted as a "guild"  member ?? A "master" is a highly skilled person in an art, craft or some other form. A "Guild", is an organization with related interests or goals, and should have no limits as to ones ability or skills for someone to join !!. I think Mark has one of the better ideas with the IAP collection. You can go on site and look at the photos and read how these pens were made. They all may not be "WOW" pens of advanced design, but they all have something different to offer. We all have different tastes in the things we think have beauty, art, and skill, so therefor you will never please everyone every time. I can see divisions in contests. This allows more people the chance to show their skills at a level they feel comfortable with, and those with the most skills to work a little harder if the want to be the best.    Jim  S


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## BradG (Sep 9, 2015)

the terms master penmaker and all that Jazz just feeds Ego's, and id rather steer away from all that labelling if I can.

Not quite in agreeance with the top 2% part.. theres LOADS of highly talented people on here for various different reasons which warrant being in there.

Competitions are another issue. Doesn't seem fair having everyone in the same pot so to speak, but I wouldn't even like to begin to speculate what the answer is to that problem. sounds like a big mess discussing that one.

Marks project with the IAP collection is a fantastic idea and I'm sure it's a privilege to be stood infront of all those wonders on display, but with regards to the original post here, I don't think that encompasses it, seeing as only one pen from each creator is likely to be included etc.


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## jttheclockman (Sep 9, 2015)

Curly said:


> Curly said:
> 
> 
> > Would todays wow pen be removed when it becomes commonplace and ho hum next season?
> ...



Well Pete in the last part of your post you sort of answered the first part.

A section for the innovative pen. When a pen is a WOW pen it usually is an innovative pen. I do understand and this is why it has been beaten to death that each person's definition of a WOW pen is subjective. But to me when you see a WOW pen you know it. You use the watch part pen as an example. When it first was done it did hit the scene as a WOW pen and now it has become everyday practice until someone takes it to a new level and believe me there is a new level. But it should be archieved because it was an idea that was launched. Same goes for poly clay pens. Same old flowers and butterflies but when first came out that was innovative. You can say this about every pen. The circuit board pen, the braided pens, the CF pens, the feather pens and so on. When they first hit the scene they should have been saved to that special file. Today they do not make the file because the concept is there already.  

But lets take segmenting as another example. Just because a pen is segmented does not mean it does not go to the WOW file because it has been done before. The look of the pen is what determines that. 

What I am trying to say is take the idea of segmenting, take the idea of watch parts, take the idea of casting on a tube and run with it and stretch the imagination. Or you can go another route such as what Skip and Brad do and go entirely kitless and create. These type pens need to be preserved. If everyone starts making bolt pens then they too will become mundane and boring but until that happens they are innovative. 

This is the way i look at this.


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## BradG (Sep 9, 2015)

Innovative pens. Nicely said. 

Anything new and refreshing or out of the box which John said, would suit it well.


I was corrected earlier that just because it's kitless doesn't mean it's worth preserving, and I agree with that. Pens which are deemed innovative would fit well. For sure flicking through that category would show you a lot of unique pens


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## BJohn (Sep 9, 2015)

OkI have read most of the post's, and have avoided adding my tcw. But here it goes. 

*1st *The comment about one may never have or develop the abilities in pen turning as some others is HOG WASH. And to say that, to me is a defeatist attitude. A lot of the time all it may take is $$$. To add the threading jig, The addition of the right tools to turn stone. We have no idea what that persons talents are and limitations holding them back.

*2nd  *John there is a place for you to go and look at what you may consider worthy of you time. It's Called The Pen turners Guild. And you don't have to be a member to look at their galleries. And John I looked at the pens in your members gallery and make no mistake they are nice. But I may have missed one or two but they all appear to be made from kit's.
*
3rd and last *I have stood up before, for the new comer to pen turning and this forum. As I am one of them (being here for just under a year, and will admit I learn some thing every time I log on. I have seem people belittled for just asking a question. This to me is just another attempt to segregate those every day guy's, a lot of which are new turners from those that think they are to good AND I WILL QUOTE "WEED"  through the every pen's that by far the vast majority guy's & lady's put up here. These people put them selves and their work out there at the risk of being looked down upon.

Enough said and I will close with this and it is the truth, I have seen people leave this forum because of the elitist attitude show to them. I will not mention their good names or the names of the people with the attitudes. It is a shame this has happened we as a body have no idea what we may have missed out on.

Instead of thinking of it as WEEDING through, why not take the time and create ourselves a chance to mentor some one. Now that would be different.


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## mark james (Sep 9, 2015)

When I see a pen posted or appears in the random shots on the left of the Home screen that really impresses me (whether I can make something similar now/may eventually be able to make it/or will most likely never attempt), I save the address in a separate "Word" file.

So I have my own "Hall of Fame" File (none of mine are in it yet :tongue.  No, this is not as convenient as having a separate IAP Forum, but it does work for me.

Currently there are 45 individual pens, and the Photo Albums of 32 IAP members.  So, I probably have reasonably quick access to over 300+ pens that I feel inspired by viewing.

Many would never be considered by the PMG, some are in the PMG, some are well within my current skill set, many will never be - but they are MY favorites.

I fully appreciate taking inspiration from the work of others to make something unique that I needed to attempt myself.


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## jttheclockman (Sep 9, 2015)

BJohn said:


> OkI have read most of the post's, and have avoided adding my tcw. But here it goes.
> 
> *1st *The comment about one may never have or develop the abilities in pen turning as some others is HOG WASH. And to say that, to me is a defeatist attitude. A lot of the time all it may take is $$$. To add the threading jig, The addition of the right tools to turn stone. We have no idea what that persons talents are and limitations holding them back.
> 
> ...




Hello John

I had to look back just in case there was another John you were referring to. Since I do not see one I assume it is me. I would like to make this point, never did I say I made kitless pens and on the contrary that is all I use. I even made a point about it in my post if you read it carefully. i also am well aware with the Guild and I can point you to other sites if you would like that you can see some fine pens. You do not even have to go to any forum, just use google search and click on images. Man there are a ton of pens. 

Now one thing I do not like reading and it has been written before, segregate. How in the world is this segregating. It is weeding as you call it and yes there are a handful of people that qualify but that does not mean each and every person can not put out something spectacular. I think every time one of those special pens show up it should be celebrated moreso than the average pen. Yes i feel that way. But when you archieve it you now make it more readily available for others to view. So many new members join here each day. Do you think they go through the many number of pages of show your pens. ??? No those special pens get lost. These pens should be a benchmark for others to look at. I think it gets lost here that there are members that are beyond the everyday pen making skills and want to have their say also. So maybe this is segregating. 

I do something similar to what Mark does and i have a few pens that are on my bucket list to try and I would do this to honor the people who first did them, not to copy and sell. 

I strongly feel that the evolution of pen making needs to be archived and somehow preserved. 

John, there have been many people that have left here for many reasons and yes it is ashame some of the more talented people have chosen to move on but we are here and it is the next generation that shines the light. No reason the next great artisan can not emerge from the ranks. The thing that holds people back is afraid of failure. Again I sound like a broken record but try new things. Experiment. jump all in the water is fine.


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## jondavidj (Sep 9, 2015)

maxwell_smart007 said:


> You'd still miss the posts from humble people who don't think that their work is special enough...
> 
> You'd also miss posts from people who made an amazing blank, or adapted a kit, and just didn't meet the 'kitless' criteria.
> 
> ...




Maybe do a "Hall of Fame" where people vote for you to be in, sort of like a Pen Makers Guild.....think that will work? You could use the poll....let it run for a week.  Just an idea...


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## plantman (Sep 9, 2015)

*1st *The comment about one may never have or develop the abilities in pen turning as some others is HOG WASH. And to say that, to me is a defeatist attitude. A lot of the time all it may take is $$$. To add the threading jig, The addition of the right tools to turn stone. We have no idea what that persons talents are and limitations holding them back.

This is not HOG WASH or meant to be a defeatist attitude, it is a common fact known to all. Man may be created equal in God's and the government's eyes, but that is where the similarity ends. To me a defeatist attitude is when you tell yourself you can't do something and never try. And to think that money or tools will make you a better craftsman if you don't have the basic skills to begin with is far fetched. I could buy the best surgical tools in the world, study all the best books, talk to all the best surgeons, and still never be even a good brain surgeon. Seeing and learning from others will make you good, better, but not always the best.     Jim  S


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## mark james (Sep 9, 2015)

jondavidj said:


> Maybe do a "Hall of Fame" where people vote for you to be in, sort of like a Pen Makers Guild.....think that will work? You could use the poll....let it run for a week.  Just an idea...



http://www.penturners.org/forum/f11/members-best-forum-38925/

http://www.penturners.org/forum/f18/hall-fame-113146/

Many pros/cons were voiced.  Very "lively" discussions...


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## Skie_M (Sep 9, 2015)

We already have an IAP collection forum that showcases the best of what the IAP has to offer ....  

We already have a Library that can help people get down to the nitty gritty on how to make some fabulous blanks ....


We still need some tutorials on polyclay, stone working, some types of metalworking, and possibly some of the newer casting techniques and segmenting techniques ...

We possibly need a set of basic tutorials describing, in detail, finish sanding and finishing techniques for a wide array of pens and materials ...

We could probably use a great tutorial for basic kitless pen making ... what you could use to get started, what's essential, what's optional, ect ...


After all that stuff, we might be able to use an archival page where members could vote a pen into, as an example of WHAT WE WANT THE NEXT TUTORIALS TO COVER.



I'ld love to see this place grow even more ... not as an elitist affair, where only the top dogs hobnob and show off their super-secret results and hide their techniques to protect their product line ....  but as a center of learning, sharing, and friendship, where people come to learn from the best and bring some wonder into the lives of everybody around them.


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## jttheclockman (Sep 9, 2015)

mark james said:


> jondavidj said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe do a "Hall of Fame" where people vote for you to be in, sort of like a Pen Makers Guild.....think that will work? You could use the poll....let it run for a week.  Just an idea...
> ...




Thanks Mark for digging those links out. Many things were discussed there and the pros and cons. If I may be so bold to say this was one of the leading factors to you starting the project that you did. Your project has been an instant hit and will only continue to grow. No reason this could not happen here as well.


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## CREID (Sep 9, 2015)

Wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I am sorry I don't make kitless pens. 
I am sorry you have to wade through post of mine to get to the elite people.
Actually, i'm not sorry, well I am sorry that you would actually think the rest of us aren't posting something worthy of you scrolling through.
Here is a suggestion. Go to wordpress.com and there you can start a site, blog or whatever for free and you can sit there and marvel at all your own pens and not bother with us lower folks.
You know I just thought of something, I really appreciate the craftsmanship, the imagination and time spent on the kitless pens. But to be honest, I like the kit pens better, the craftsmanship, the imagination and the time to do a great job turning, selecting just the right blank and even rejecting turned blanks because they are just not right. I enjoy the pride that people have in the pens they make from their kits. I really think you need to sit back and think.
Curt


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## bobleibo (Sep 9, 2015)

Why do we need to start segregating people into groups based on skill level? This site is not designed to be that way. For as long as I have been around, it has been a place where ANYONE could come and learn new things and show off their pens to others who can offer praise or constructive critiques - positive ones. Who am I to decide if a pen qualifies for some self-professed wow factor or skill level? If I don't have the time to look at what I feel are lessor quality works of art, that's my problem, not theirs. I don't think it encourages anyone to "step up to the next level" by dangling the proverbial carrot in this particular environment and let us not forget that not everyone has the time, resources or desire to do so. Some people just want to turn a nice pen, make some new friends and enjoy the hobby side of it. 

Never forget, at one time each of us turned our very first pen~


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## JimB (Sep 9, 2015)

I've made 'BIC' pens. Since they are kitless would they go in the new SOYP forum if it's created:biggrin:


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## BJohn (Sep 9, 2015)

Your Signature is "John T" I made the assumption.

My whole point being I don't think segregating the more experience turners from every one else is not fair toany one. I would be willing to say that you have seen something from a new guy that gave you a AH-HUH moment.

Do I think a Hall of Fame archive is a good idea (yeah). entries can be entered once a month or 12 each year. Voted on by all the membership (in a straight up vote) no runners up or run offs for a tie. We already have something similar to that with the pens that tour around.

Also like the earlier post and like your statement this a public forum and no direct rude or mean comments are made or should be applied toward anyone. As my bride and I will be touring Europe again in the next couple years, and since we did not get to Great Britain on the last trip. We will for sure be on the next and the possibility of meeting some turners from all of Europe is high on our list. Maybe we can meet for some fish and chips and a pint.


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## liljohn1368 (Sep 9, 2015)

As a new pen turner this makes me feel really welcome here.


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## maxwell_smart007 (Sep 9, 2015)

Please note that this is just a suggestion from a member - no need to get upset or annoyed. 

We all have our own ideas - that's what make these sorts of Forums work!


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## liljohn1368 (Sep 9, 2015)

Im not going anywhere. I love it.


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## H2O (Sep 9, 2015)

I've only made a few pens, one of which I believe I posted a picture of. So, I doubt I would ever make it into an elitist club or have the ability and/or money to do what some people have shown they can do.
I started this pen thing, just to try something new. It's nothing more than a hobby and I don't foresee myself investing a bunch of time or obscene amounts of money into something I will never recover.

I apologize for forcing anyone to take a few seconds to scroll past my inadequate submission. I _was_ slightly proud of my accomplishment.


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## CREID (Sep 9, 2015)

bobleibo said:


> Why do we need to start segregating people into groups based on skill level? This site is not designed to be that way. For as long as I have been around, it has been a place where ANYONE could come and learn new things and show off their pens to others who can offer praise or constructive critiques - positive ones. Who am I to decide if a pen qualifies for some self-professed wow factor or skill level? If I don't have the time to look at what I feel are lessor quality works of art, that's my problem, not theirs. I don't think it encourages anyone to "step up to the next level" by dangling the proverbial carrot in this particular environment and let us not forget that not everyone has the time, resources or desire to do so. Some people just want to turn a nice pen, make some new friends and enjoy the hobby side of it.
> 
> Never forget, at one time each of us turned our very first pen~


I think we should be able to hit like as many times as "I" want. "I" want to like this post 7 times.
Curt
ps "I" am a mere mortal, I once turned my very first pen.
"I" also posted my first photo once and although my photography was horrible, "I" really appreciated the comments from the people here.


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## mark james (Sep 9, 2015)

Skie_M said:


> We already have an IAP collection forum that showcases the best of what the IAP has to offer ....



Hi Greg:

Actually, that is not the intent of the IAP Collection (partially yes, but not as a whole).  While it does and will in the future preserve what I and others consider some of IAP's Best, it is more of a physical preservation of "what we do."

An example (sorry to pick on you Jim...:tongue

The pen that Plantman made is an example of "thinking outside of the box" and was an effort to show how a very respectable pen could be made while you waited for your new lathe to arrive!  Is it a world famous pen in respect to kit/materials/finish, etc?  No, but it represents an element of IAP - Innovation.  And, in 10 years, it can be an example to newer penturners to THINK!  And TRY!

So back to the OP:  The IAP Collection is not a "Hall of Fame."  That is a topic that as we can see has been discussed previously, and has many pros and cons.  And I suspect will be debated again.

To Be Clear:  IAP Collection - A Physical archive of what IAP does (well, some of it!!!)

                   A Hall of Fame Forum - A different topic.


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## mark james (Sep 9, 2015)

jttheclockman said:


> Thanks Mark for digging those links out. Many things were discussed there and the pros and cons. If I may be so bold to say this was one of the leading factors to you starting the project that you did. Your project has been an instant hit and will only continue to grow. No reason this could not happen here as well.



*Hi JT:*

Yes, it was an impetus.  And not only why, but how.  Yes, there is overlap, but this topic from Brad and you and Lee is still to be debated.  I see both sides of the reasoning, and that is one reason I structured the IAP Collection to be more inclusive - It can be whatever the membership makes it into.  I am now replaceable and the Collection will grow on it's own.

*Brad:*  I wanted to clarify this simply to keep the IAP Collection OUT of the discussion you have started!!!  Especially since it is actually a different animal (one is physical, the other can be online) - and evidently not easy to be tamed!  

Cheers!


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## BradG (Sep 9, 2015)

If you have somehow been offended by me I apologise, that's not my intention 

But I believe in free speech and feel part of a community where I can speak freely. 

These are my opinions. I'm entitled to them. By sharing them I will either be told I'm wrong, or someone will come along and steer it into a better idea. Keep in mind the ideology behind a forum.


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## Skie_M (Sep 9, 2015)

BradG said:


> If you have somehow been offended by me I apologise, that's not my intention
> 
> But I believe in free speech and feel part of a community where I can speak freely.
> 
> These are my opinions. I'm entitled to them. By sharing them I will either be told I'm wrong, or someone will come along and steer it into a better idea. Keep in mind the ideology behind a forum.



I don't care who's opinion it is or what it's about, if it's an opinion, it is NEVER WRONG.  Your opinions may help serve others to change their opinions or ways of thinking, and that's a great thing.  Their opinions may do the same for your thoughts and thinking ... that's also a great thing.  Forums are for sharing. 

Your opinions are how you feel or think about something, and sharing your opinions is what a forum is all about.  I like many of the opinions around here, and I like the new ideas and things that I've seen and imagined since joining up.

I have the opinion that we shouldn't force people to believe that one thing is better than another simply because they can't do it yet or haven't succeeded at doing it yet, or haven't even tried to do it yet.  

I don't think that "keeping the newbies out of the cool kid's club" by picking and choosing certain pen types or styles to showcase is the way to go at all ....  

But I do think that showing and teaching new techniques and styles could go a very very long way towards making this forum last forever.  And by asking our membership what they think we should focus on figuring out how to do next, I think we could make such things happen faster and more dynamically, by getting input from many people to solve the issues and problems faced by just a few who are trying it out.



Crowdsourcing ... the application of a large number of people to find solutions to a few problems at a time .... just like running a supercomputer compared to a simple personal computer.  The size of the problem will no longer matter.


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## builtbybill (Sep 9, 2015)

Skie_M said:


> ...We could probably use a great tutorial for basic kitless pen making ... what you could use to get started, what's essential, what's optional, ect ...



I would LOVE to see a tutorial/video on how to get started in the kitless world.  I keep wanting to make the leap but honestly have no idea where to start (i.e. basic tools, shapes, measurements etc.).  

So for all of the people that think kitless is the ONLY way to make pens worthy of display how about helping those of us that would like to learn.  All you have to do is take some photos, or just record to whole process, and then we too can "feel proud" of our pens.  

I am not trying to upset anyone with my comments but us noobs are not trying to compete with the "elite" pen makers we just want to try and emulate your accomplishments.  Some of us just need a little push and some help along the way. I am sorry, though, if it does upset anyone but I am just of the personality that I have never said ""ha ha I can do this (fill in the blank) and you can't", I am of the personality that I say "I noticed you are having a hard time with this, would you like me to show you how I do it?"  

I have received a reputation as being pretty good with photography (not that you can tell from my photos posted here since I do not have a light box, yet, since I usually do outside work and I am new to the pen photo world...never knew it would be so artistic).  I cannot even begin count how many times I have been at events and had people stop me to ask for help on anything from technique to equipment, and EVERY single time I stopped and talked with them to the point that I was sure I had helped them.  Never once did I say, or imply, that I had to learn on my own so you do too, and I have never had an elitist attitude that any of my photos, or equipment, were any better than anyone elses, except my wife but that is a whole other story. 

Again, sorry for rambling but I came to this site for the sole purpose of learning, and hopefully making friends along the way, but lately there have been too many posts that make me feel like us average/beginning penmakers are not worthy.  Please do not get me wrong there have been tons of people here that have been very supportive (Roy, Marla, Smitty and Ed for example) but I have also seen my fair share of "stop asking for help and figure it out, the only way to learn is to make mistakes and not duplicate them again, eventually you will figure out what works" and "why don't you do a search before you ask, this question has been asked too many times and the answers are out there if you search."  If someone can take the time to write these comments then why not just use that same amount of time and typing to help someone.

Thanks for "listening".

Bill


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## mredburn (Sep 9, 2015)

In the Library with the candle stick..... no wait thats a different Forum
IN the Library under Taps and dies for kitless pens
http://content.penturners.org/library/general_reference/taps_dies_kitless.pdf
This should give you a place to start.


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## mredburn (Sep 9, 2015)

By the way, we do have Advanced Pen Making Forum for kitless pens. http://www.penturners.org/forum/f56/
 We have a Fountain Pens Forum http://www.penturners.org/forum/f50/


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## mredburn (Sep 9, 2015)

We dont have a special photo gallery for the Bash Pens and the gallery for the Feature Photo archive for  Front page pens hasnt been updated since 2008  These things have had some discussion but it takes a lot work to keep them up much less bring the back log current.


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## plantman (Sep 9, 2015)

mark james said:


> Skie_M said:
> 
> 
> > We already have an IAP collection forum that showcases the best of what the IAP has to offer ....
> ...



Thank you Mark: The object of that pen was not to WOW anybody with design, skill, or uniqueness, only to show newer members that you didn't need $10,000 worth of equipment to make a respectable looking pen using the simplest methods and least amount of tools. For those of you that don't remember this pen, it was an octagon made with a 3/8 inch bolt, a few nuts and washers, and a disk sander. No lathe !! The pen need not be round to be attractive to people. I have been making pens for about 30 years, and still learn and see new ideas every day on this site. Many from newer members !!! I also admire and respect the many people who display much more talent and skills than I ever hope to achieve   in my lifetime, but that doesn't mean that I won't continue to try to advance my knowledge and skills.


Brad; You are correct in bringing up my mistake about you being in the top 1 or 2% of pen makers. I should have stopped at the top 1%. Your pens are fantastic, and take pen making to the very top level !!!  Jim  S


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## jeff (Sep 9, 2015)

mredburn said:


> We dont have a special photo gallery for the Bash Pens and the gallery for the Feature Photo archive for  Front page pens hasnt been updated since 2008  These things have had some discussion but it takes a lot work to keep them up much less bring the back log current.



The pre-2008 front page photos were archived in threads in this forum.

Since July 2008, the front page pics are in an album.

Both of those links are under the front page photo.


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## Dale Lynch (Sep 9, 2015)

builtbybill said:


> Skie_M said:
> 
> 
> > ...We could probably use a great tutorial for basic kitless pen making ... what you could use to get started, what's essential, what's optional, ect ...
> ...



Here is a link to the IAP library on making kitless pens.http://content.penturners.org/library/pens/kitless_pen.pdf

It's pretty thurough,so please understand why they won't just take the time and type it all up every time someone asks.It take you 2 clicks to get to it.


----------



## builtbybill (Sep 9, 2015)

Spanx said:


> builtbybill said:
> 
> 
> > Skie_M said:
> ...




Thanks,  I don't think that I have seen this one yet, I saw another one that did not have photos.  I am only human so I must have overlooked this one in the library, my apologies.  Do you you know if the tutorial for the section (the one mentioned in this tutorial) was ever completed?  Anybody know of any "hidden gem" videos on the subject?  This is the one that is always referenced https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DQna36uThA and I am searching through youtube but just thought I would ask if anyone knew of something on some other sites.

Thanks,

Bill


----------



## Dale Lynch (Sep 9, 2015)

here's a video of a front section being done.Custom Pen Turning - Making a Section. - YouTube
here is another tutorial from the library.http://content.penturners.org/library/pens/bulbfiller.pdf


----------



## Skie_M (Sep 9, 2015)

Awesome ... so most of the kitless tutorial stuff is already done! 


I'ld love to dig into that sometime in the future ....

But there's still a lot of other stuff on my list back there ...


----------



## builtbybill (Sep 9, 2015)

Brad,

I owe you an apology, actually multiple, my comments were in no way directed toward you at all.  I truly admire all of your work and would love to get anywhere near the same level, never gonna happen!!  Second of all I never thought my comment would hijack your thread, not my intention.  I do not feel sorry for what I said, however, just where I said it.  I just got frustrated at some of the comments that were going back and forth, I actually typed the post and waited a few minutes to see if I still wanted to speak my mind and not post impulsively and after a few minutes I decided I wanted to say it.  Unfortunately I said it in "your" thread instead of just starting my own.

For those of you that suffered through my rant, and still managed to offer the links - THANKS!!!!

Please accept my sincerest apologies, (in the morning when you wake up)

Bill


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## Lucky2 (Sep 9, 2015)

Yep, more segregation, that's what's needed. It's not as if some of you more advanced pen turners, don't look down on some newer turners work already. I'm not familiar with your work, and from the vibe that I'm getting from your question; I'm not to sure that I want to. I firmly believe that all pens should be placed in the SOYP forum, that way all pens can be viewed without having to check out different sections of the forums. It's to sad that you can't take or make enough time to remark on a regular pen turners pen, It must be awfully nice to be so good, that you don't want to be bothered checking out others pens. Is that the way you were treated when you first started out, or, did others not praise your work and encourage you to carry on? I think you should offer the same, oh right, your to busy, or good for the rest of us!!
Len


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## BradG (Sep 10, 2015)

Lucky2 said:


> Yep, more segregation, that's what's needed. It's not as if some of you more advanced pen turners, don't look down on some newer turners work already. I'm not familiar with your work, and from the vibe that I'm getting from your question; I'm not to sure that I want to. I firmly believe that all pens should be placed in the SOYP forum, that way all pens can be viewed without having to check out different sections of the forums. It's to sad that you can't take or make enough time to remark on a regular pen turners pen, It must be awfully nice to be so good, that you don't want to be bothered checking out others pens. Is that the way you were treated when you first started out, or, did others not praise your work and encourage you to carry on? I think you should offer the same, oh right, your to busy, or good for the rest of us!!
> Len



Ok, enough bashing.
My original post asked for a kitless category.

It was commented in more or less the words "Just because its kitless doesnt mean its good"

The conversation then switched to "What about a forum where pens can be moved to preserve unique ideas.


Now all of a sudden a few of you have jumped on the elitist bandwagon.

*AGREED* - any form of segregation is not good.

*GET BACK ON TRACK* - preserving all unique pens which pop up, regardless of how they're made. if they're unique, preserve them.

Len, this is aimed directly at you, just to rule out any confusion.

Actually my early days work was slated for being under or over turned, cut to wrong sizes and all sorts of little issues. Yes I don't have as much time as I would like to sit here reading every single post what pops up, but I work two jobs, and generally get to come on here on my breaks to catch up.

Secondly, another half of that spare time is spent helping new turners learn how to anodise, etch and plate. I receive alot of messages every day about these topics from different places. I've submitted enough tutorials via PDF & Youtube to say I've done my share to support the community and I still do.

As for the sarcasm throughout your post, put your toys back in your pram. Furthermore since you have posted one pen, and that was back in 2012, I fail to see how you are offended by me not looking at your pens what you've not even posted.


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## Cwalker935 (Sep 10, 2015)

Brad, sorry that you have been bashed and accused of being an elitist. While I enjoy looking at everyone's pens, I suspect that there are a lot of nice and creative work that does not get shared.  This may be for competitive reasons which is perfectly understandable for those that actually make money from this endeavor.  I would like to see more postings by those who push the envelope be they a pen wizard, master, or a newbie and really could care less if it's in the SOYP pen forum or somewhere else.  The problem is how to create an acceptable place that does not create some level of classism.  

Brad you put your work out there and I appreciate that.  There are a lot of very active members here who have not posted a pen since I have been a member.  I wish they would share more.


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## Ironwood (Sep 10, 2015)

I have followed this thread throughout the day, but haven't replied as I have been on a work computer up until now.
I like to look at well executed pens of all types and I think its good to keep all in one SOYP forum, BUT, I agree with whoever said they eventually fall off the end once they fall behind a page or two, then they are gone, which is a shame.

I always open the forum on the front page to see the front page pen and check out the random photos, and occasionally check out the archived front page pen photos. 
The biggest issue I have is its slow to look at them, they all need to be clicked on to enlarge, my internet connection is fairly slow at best and it takes time.

Going through the SOYP forum is also slow, and it doesn't help that about 98% of the photos are posted as thumbnails, which need to be clicked on to enlarge and wait to load, because of this I skip over a lot of pens because it takes too long to look at them all. 

I think the forum could be so much better if more photos were posted at a size which is good for viewing and at a file size which doesn't take ages to load.

I have been a member here for 5 years now and posted quite a few of my pens, but it was only a week or two ago that I finally discovered how to post a larger photo here, thanks to Mike Redburn who described the process in another thread.

OK, it feels like I have been rambling on too much, so in a nutshell, what I am trying to say is, if the photos were displayed better it would be quicker and more enjoyable to view.  800 to 1000 pixels on the long edge, and 100 to 150kb I think should suit most everyone. 

Sorry if I have gone off track Brad.


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## jttheclockman (Sep 10, 2015)

Your Signature is "John T" I made the assumption.

My whole point being I don't think segregating the more experience turners from every one else is not fair toany one. I would be willing to say that you have seen something from a new guy that gave you a AH-HUH moment.[/quote]


BJohn said:


> Do I think a Hall of Fame archive is a good idea (yeah). entries can be entered once a month or 12 each year. Voted on by all the membership (in a straight up vote) no runners up or run offs for a tie. We already have something similar to that with the pens that tour around.
> 
> Also like the earlier post and like your statement this a public forum and no direct rude or mean comments are made or should be applied toward anyone. As my bride and I will be touring Europe again in the next couple years, and since we did not get to Great Britain on the last trip. We will for sure be on the next and the possibility of meeting some turners from all of Europe is high on our list. Maybe we can meet for some fish and chips and a pint.





John

I am not quite sure where you are going with this. But let me say I have been a member here for over 10 years. I have contributed my share of knowledge, voiced my opinions, and contributed to discussions of all sorts. I have answered any and all questions ever asked to me. I was instrumental in getting the Segmentation Forum on line. I even posted a full length thread in there explaining how I make some of my pens. Not quite sure what other qualifications I need to satisfy you for making comments in this thread.

Brad brought up a simple request to have a subdivision of a forum that is now in existence. I was met with this same kind of resistance when we discussed the Segmentation Forum. And here it is and does well. Not as well as i would like and it has been brought to my attention a few times it may be because I have not partaken in it for quite some time. This is due mainly because of some health issues I am currently going through and I have not been able to be in my shop for almost 2 years now. Hopefully this will change. I have a ton of ideas I want to share with all. 

As this discussion has evolved I think Brad's thought process has changed somewhat and (I am not speaking for him) he has realized that kit pens too can be extremely well received when enhanced well. Then the conversation took us back to an old post that has been brought up before here which was pointed out by Mark. It was also pointed out from that discussion of the Hall of Fame that the saplings of the now popular IAP Pen Collection was born. The roots are there. 

What I fail to understand is these so called Newbies and others want to discourage the growth of this Forum once again. This age old argument about separating the elite from the rest of the field is a deterrent is just truly nonsense. It is so stupid it is mindnumbing. Yes we are all in this together and yes we all should look to those that are better at this and learn from them. Having a seperate forum for certain kinds of pens is beneficial to ALL. It helps keep things uniform and neat. It helps as someone put it WEED out those pens that stand alone. The more we alienate the better pen makers the more that list drops and no one wins. Who do we then look to for those new ideas. I have said it over and over again. Take what you see here and run with it. There is no limits. People do extraordinary things with far less than what we have so if you use that as your crutch then shame on you. 

Tired of reading about mistreatment to Newbies when they ask questions. This site is monitored daily and any and all mistreatment is dealt with so stop with that nonsense already too. 

As far as tutorials go for every new idea that comes along or any new thing added to a pen.  Impossible Impossible Impossible and with that said I have not seen someone turned away from info provided by said pen makers. When someone is working a a special pen they are not obligated to stop and take photos of every step in the making of that pen. Who are we to ask such things???

This brings me to the Hall of Fame item. Weather it happens or not is not going to make or ruin my day. I just felt and still do that a place for those special never seen before pens need to archieved and saved for future pen makers that come through here. It symbolizes what this site is about. It tells a story as to the evolution of the so called pen maker here. 

Just one other thing I would like to mention to the naysayers here. How do you like it when Jeff picks a few pens a month to be on the front page???  I have seen many pens that i thought should be there but for restrictions they can not be.  No fault of anyone's but that is the rules. Yes those are now archieved but that is such a small sample of what should be. 

OK I am done with this discussion. I have stated my point and hopefully the conversation can continue with good intentions. Happy Turning All.


----------



## BradG (Sep 10, 2015)

jttheclockman said:


> As this discussion has evolved I think Brad's thought process has changed somewhat and (I am not speaking for him) he has realized that kit pens too can be extremely well received when enhanced well.



Correct, at the beginning I knew I wanted to separate the finer pens from the masses so they can easily be found. The only way I could think of to do that was to pick an advanced area, such as kitless, to isolate those pens. it was then brought to my attention that just because its kitless doesn't mean its a good pen, and I was reminded just how many beautiful pens there are turned from various blanks on various kits which would also warrant being preserved. John hit the nail on the head with an pen which is unique & inspiring.



> you like it when Jeff picks a few pens a month to be on the front page???  I have seen many pens that i thought should be there but for restrictions they can not be.  .



Not quite sure what the criteria is for that but I've not managed to make one worthy of the front page yet :biggrin:


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## BradG (Sep 10, 2015)

builtbybill said:


> Brad,
> 
> I owe you an apology, actually multiple, my comments were in no way directed toward you at all.  I truly admire all of your work and would love to get anywhere near the same level, never gonna happen!!  Second of all I never thought my comment would hijack your thread, not my intention.  I do not feel sorry for what I said, however, just where I said it.  I just got frustrated at some of the comments that were going back and forth, I actually typed the post and waited a few minutes to see if I still wanted to speak my mind and not post impulsively and after a few minutes I decided I wanted to say it.  Unfortunately I said it in "your" thread instead of just starting my own.
> 
> ...



Bill, honestly, not required  You haven't spoke out of turn at all.  It's an oppressive world when you can't voice what's on your chest.


----------



## BradG (Sep 10, 2015)

BJohn said:


> Maybe we can meet for some fish and chips and a pint.



The meeting part is always welcome though il take a raincheck on the fish & chips + pint. I don't like anything made from potato which rules out chips, not a lover of fish unless its Sushi, and I don't drink beer :redface: (Rum & whiskey). I also cant stand football or sports in general which don't involve snow. Think I may be the worst Englishman ever!


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## Katya (Sep 10, 2015)

What if we combined a few of these ideas.. post all pen pics in a larger format- I agree, sometimes it takes a while to click on each pen. 

 And then create a "favourites" folder that we each have.  That way we can each store our favourites online where we can access them easily.

And every month, we could nominate a favourite for "Members' Choice of the Month" or something...


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## builtbybill (Sep 10, 2015)

jttheclockman said:


> What I fail to understand is these so called Newbies and others want to discourage the growth of this Forum once again. This age old argument about separating the elite from the rest of the field is a deterrent is just truly nonsense.
> 
> Tired of reading about mistreatment to Newbies when they ask questions. This site is monitored daily and any and all mistreatment is dealt with so stop with that nonsense already too.




I am not opposed to the growth of the forum, nor am I opposed to the "hall of Fame" but I am not a fan of the "Elite" forum.  The difference that I see here is that in a "Hall of Fame" your pen would get voted in, and in the "Elite" forum you make your own entries so you are the one making the determination that you believe your pen is above and beyond.  How would you control what is posted there?  Who decides what really is above and beyond.  I love coming here and seeing all of the great pens, especially the "different", notice I did not say better. pens.  I still look at almost all of the new pens, though, who knows where the next inspiration might come from?

As far as my comment about the "mistreatment" (I don't recall using that term but maybe you thought it was implied) let me start by saying this was never done toward any of my questions.  I have always received positive feedback when I have asked for help.  This was in response to some comments I have read when others have asked for help, maybe there was prior history between the participants that I do not know of.  I will say though that there are a few people here that I have seen almost nothing but rude and condescending remarks from.

Here is an idea, probably stupid, what if there was a meeting each year, by the moderators and other admins, about making changes to the forum.  Here is my vision of how it would work:  

1.  A new thread would be started in June asking for suggestions to forum improvements.  

2.  After 30 days worth of suggestions a poll would be created, using the suggestions in this thread, asking for your choice for the top 3 improvements you would like discussed by the admin team.

3. After the poll runs for 30 days the top 3 from the poll will get discussed by the admin team for inclusion into the forum next year.  You can even set a policy that at least one of these must be included next year, but all can be if the team can support.

This would in fact guarantee growth and actually give us participants at least some say in the process.


Thanks again for your time,

Bill


----------



## jttheclockman (Sep 10, 2015)

builtbybill said:


> jttheclockman said:
> 
> 
> > What I fail to understand is these so called Newbies and others want to discourage the growth of this Forum once again. This age old argument about separating the elite from the rest of the field is a deterrent is just truly nonsense.
> ...




Here you go Bill


*Site Help, Tips, How-To* 			(2 Viewing) 		
 		Get and give help for using the FORUM SOFTWARE.
*Sub-Forums*: 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



Suggestion Box, 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


Forum How-To, 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


Testing 1 2 3


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## builtbybill (Sep 10, 2015)

Ironwood said:


> I have followed this thread throughout the day, but haven't replied as I have been on a work computer up until now.
> I like to look at well executed pens of all types and I think its good to keep all in one SOYP forum, BUT, I agree with whoever said they eventually fall off the end once they fall behind a page or two, then they are gone, which is a shame.
> 
> I always open the forum on the front page to see the front page pen and check out the random photos, and occasionally check out the archived front page pen photos.
> ...



Whether it is the SOYP forum or some other new forum the pens will eventually all fall pages behind, granted in something like a "hall of Fame" forum it will take much longer for them to fall off the grid.


How do we post larger pictures?  I have seen some people do it but I cannot figure out how, and I agree it makes it faster to browse through the new pics.  Using firefox I can at least use the "thumbnail zoom plus" add-on so that when I scroll over a photo it automatically zooms a preview image without having to open the photo.


----------



## builtbybill (Sep 10, 2015)

jttheclockman said:


> builtbybill said:
> 
> 
> > jttheclockman said:
> ...



John, 

Were you you just hinting that I add a thread to the Suggestion Box, which I am in the process of doing right now.  Or are you telling me there is already something like I suggested, in which case I will not start a new thread?

Bill


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## jttheclockman (Sep 10, 2015)

Bill

You do what you want. I merely suggested there is a forum that is designed for future site changes. The suggestion box can be a useful tool. There have been examples of changes to the site that came out of that subforum. 

Have fun.


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## builtbybill (Sep 10, 2015)

jttheclockman said:


> Bill
> 
> You do what you want. I merely suggested there is a forum that is designed for future site changes. The suggestion box can be a useful tool. There have been examples of changes to the site that came out of that subforum.
> 
> Have fun.



Here is the link to my suggestion: http://www.penturners.org/forum/f11/forum-evolvement-134965/


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## Skie_M (Sep 10, 2015)

builtbybill said:


> How do we post larger pictures?  I have seen some people do it but I cannot figure out how, and I agree it makes it faster to browse through the new pics.  Using firefox I can at least use the "thumbnail zoom plus" add-on so that when I scroll over a photo it automatically zooms a preview image without having to open the photo.



When pics are added as attachments, they automatically get thumbnailed ....

When pics are added using the image tags, they are displayed at full size.

here's the difference:   (edit - the images are of a recent pen I did .... Comfort pen with upgrade gold cross clip in 24kt gold in orange/peach with cream marking alabaster.)




This first one is "linked BB code".  If you click it, it will take you offsite to Imgur.com to view my pic and see details on it.




This second one is just with image tags.  You can't click on it for a larger view, it just shows what I put there.


Lastly, I included an attachment here:   You can click on it to view it larger.


----------



## mredburn (Sep 10, 2015)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYEjSoirG9Y


----------



## builtbybill (Sep 10, 2015)

mredburn said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYEjSoirG9Y




Awesome!,  thanks


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## jeff (Sep 10, 2015)

builtbybill said:


> 1.  A new thread would be started in June asking for suggestions to forum improvements.
> 
> 2.  After 30 days worth of suggestions a poll would be created, using the suggestions in this thread, asking for your choice for the top 3 improvements you would like discussed by the admin team.
> 
> ...



Bill

Thanks for the suggestion. I've tried for the ~12 years we've been here to take each and every suggestion seriously. I've always tried to consider the needs of the community in every important decision. 

I've implemented a lot of ideas which came from members, and when I have not been able to, I believe I've always had a good technical or logistical reason.  I've also not done some things because when I presented the idea, it was not well received. 

The most recent example is this thread. Brad suggested that we create a new forum section for kitless, and even though I knew it was a very polarizing topic, I encouraged him to kick off a discussion. 

I'm not opposed to formalizing the suggestion process, but I don't know if it's feasible to require that at least one suggestion be implemented if it requires involved forum mods, etc. Some things are doable in a few clicks (like creating a new sub forum) and others take many hours of coding (like the image zoom implementation). 

We recently created the "New Member Advocate" position, and Mr. Edgar Dohmann is that person. Even though the title says "New Member", Edgar and I have had discussions that he can be a conduit to keep management aware of a wide variety of topics. So perhaps Edgar would be interested in facilitating a "forum improvement" discussion at some regular interval.

MY PM box is always open to suggestions!


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## Ironwood (Sep 10, 2015)

builtbybill said:


> How do we post larger pictures?


 


mredburn said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYEjSoirG9Y


 
Thanks Mike.


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## builtbybill (Sep 10, 2015)

jeff said:


> builtbybill said:
> 
> 
> > 1.  A new thread would be started in June asking for suggestions to forum improvements.
> ...




Jeff,

Thanks for the response, I fully understand the complexities that can be involved with upgrades to the forum.  This is where the admin team would still contain the power, in my example at least, when you assess the suggestions from the original thread you only add the feasible changes into the poll.  That way no matter what the results of the poll are you know that it would be something that is capable of being accomplished


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## BradG (Sep 11, 2015)

Are we in agreeance unique pens which have pushed the envelope should be preserved as a copy in a seperate category. If it has been done before, it wouldn't qualify. Turners would still post their work in SOYP as normal, and if it's a pen which is an evolutionary step in the world of pen turning, a copy of it is made into the archive category (whatever that's decided to be called).

I appreciate there would still be alot of debate about how it's managed, but can we confirm if we at least agree on the goal.


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## Skie_M (Sep 11, 2015)

Still needs a bit more discussion, I think, Brad ...


Like ... first of a kinds only?  Or do significant improvements on the process/results count too?

Should we include past examples that are already archived?  (that would double our efforts in some areas, and may not be desirable.)

Should we include any pen that should qualify based on appearance, or only ones who's techniques are laid out so that we can follow their footsteps?


How and when should we archive such examples?   What will be the guidelines for addition or removal from this archive?


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## jttheclockman (Sep 11, 2015)

Skie_M said:


> Still needs a bit more discussion, I think, Brad ...
> 
> 
> Like ... first of a kinds only?  Or do significant improvements on the process/results count too?
> ...



The HOW is the question and there should never be a reason for removal.



I know I am on board.

I think the main questions are how, not what. 

As I see your questions I put in red. Again just my opinion.


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## magpens (Sep 11, 2015)

*Slimline Click Pen - Eligible for "Elite" Categorization ?*

I don't believe in this egotistical, elitist idea.

There is a place for pens that are really pushing the envelope and that's in the Pen Turners Guild - let them go there.

I believe it was stated in the OP that the Gold Ribbon Boys and Girls don't have time to wade through all the "garden variety" pens displayed in the mainstream SOYP category.

Well, surely the Gold Ribbon Boys and Girls know who their compatriots are, so they could just ignore threads by all but those penturners.

Whatever happens to this idea, I would be strongly opposed to the mainstream penturners being excluded from viewing and talking to the "elite".

But I would like to see the elitist idea die ... right  now.

OK, so I have done something that I think no one else has done ... I have made two versions of a slimline click pen, one is in acrylic and one is in wood. The OD is 0.33" - 0.35" and they use 7mm tubes and Parker refills.  I am not at this point going to tell how I did it. But I will say that I used readily available kit parts. 

My question is this: Am I eligible to join the "elite" ?  Is this a feat of such magnitude that warrants my entry into the Gold Ribbon club ?

Please, somebody who is in the "elite" category give me an answer ... I am serious !


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## CREID (Sep 11, 2015)

magpens said:


> I don't believe in this egotistical, elitist idea.
> 
> There is a place for pens that are really pushing the envelope and that's in the Pen Turners Guild - let them go there.
> 
> ...


 Ok, I should have learned my lesson but here I go again. In the OP it was stated "It feels like once in a while a pen pops up which is evident that this person put a lot more time into it compared to the average joe, and it's lost in a sea of conventionally made pens." and then "This raised alot of questions, as to what would actually qualify as an advanced pen when you get down to the nitty gritty, possibly leading to confusion as to where people can post. who would police it etc. a Kitless category is exactly that. Kitless. no pens which are made using pieces from kits, internally or otherwise, maybe with the exception to a key component if it's felt it would be beneficial to the vast majority." and then "Wouldn't you rather have a category of pens being showcased where you know each one which has been made has had a considerable amount of time & effort put into it? This new category, seeing as going kitless is considered advanced in itself, should be full of jaw dropping pens in an easy to find location."
Kitless, kitless, kitless. That is what this is about. You have insulted the masses, whether they feel insulted or not. How dare you state that in order for a pen to be advanced and have more time put into it, it has to be kitless. I think you should take a look at more of those average joe pens. Like the segmented pens which I certainly believe that they took more than a few minutes to make and which I think just because they used a kit, that it can't be advanced is absolutely INSANE! What about all the people doing casting and just because they use a kit to show it off, they are just an AVERAGE JOE!!! What about the person that took the time to do a beautiful job of designing what shape they turn a blank that looks absolutely fabulous????? I think this should be taken off the table for the simple reasons that, first it was obvious that what the person was after was a kitless forum, that they tried to justify this new forum by being an elitist and let's not forget how insulting the OP was to us AVERAGE JOES. The original poster stated in a later post that it was not his intent to offend anyone, well YOU DID. If you really believe that you did not intend to offend anyone, then take down your OP and go make your ELITE pens.
Curt


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## Ed McDonnell (Sep 11, 2015)

I really don't understand the emotional outbursts.  Somebody made a suggestion.  If you don't like the suggestion then just say so.  No need to go all postal.

Ed


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## CREID (Sep 11, 2015)

Ed McDonnell said:


> I really don't understand the emotional outbursts.  Somebody made a suggestion.  If you don't like the suggestion then just say so.  No need to go all postal.
> 
> Ed


 To outright state that if you didn't make a kitless pen, you didn't spend any time on it and it isn't worth being an elite pen just because it isn't kitless is INSULTING!


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## CREID (Sep 11, 2015)

If it had been brought up that someone thought there needed to be a kitless forum, without putting everybody else underneath the so called Elite. I would have some respect for that. But I don't have respect for how this was done.
Curt


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## maxwell_smart007 (Sep 11, 2015)

Can I please ask everyone to take a deep breath?  Everyone has different ideas, and we all look at things from different vantage points...There's no reason to get upset, insulted, or otherwise flustered by a forum suggestion.  If you don't like the idea, please respond without venom...there's just no reason why it should result in such angst, especially as it was a suggestion that was offered constructively.  

To respond to the above posts, there's definitely a place for everyone here, and I don't think there will be a "restricted elite" section that would divide the membership.   

I do like the idea of showcasing amazing pens - and we already do that to a very limited extent with the front page and the IAP collection.  

But, I do have a suggestion that may help those who don't want to look at every post in the SOYP section.  If you want to see a pen that's causing a lot of talk, and don't want to contribute by offering critiques or support for pens that don't meet your personal criteria, simply look for posts in the SOYP section that have multi-page responses.  If you want to save them for later viewing, perhaps you could use the bookmark feature of your browser. 

Personally, I don't make amazing pens, but I do like to look at them...but it's also important to have others respond to my pens and tell me how I can improve.  

I like looking at all the SOYP threads, as it's neat to see how the craft is evolving, and how trends are developing.


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## CREID (Sep 11, 2015)

maxwell_smart007 said:


> Can I please ask everyone to take a deep breath?  Everyone has different ideas, and we all look at things from different vantage points...There's no reason to get upset, insulted, or otherwise flustered by a forum suggestion.  If you don't like the idea, please respond without venom...there's just no reason why it should result in such angst, especially as it was a suggestion that was offered constructively.
> 
> To respond to the above posts, there's definitely a place for everyone here, and I don't think there will be a "restricted elite" section that would divide the membership.
> 
> ...


 I like to look at amazing pens too, and I certainly don't think what I have made so far are amazing (maybe someday). But recently the IAP has become somewhat negative, and somewhat elitist. I do have to take responsibility for some of the negativness from what I have posted in this thread, but eventually you have to stand up and do what you can to keep the integrity of this forum from deteriorating further. Just look at some of the negative stuff that goes on here, especially lately. I have learned a lot here and want to learn more. I want to make better pens than I do now. I want to get better than I am. Just to let you know, I used to shoot competitive archery and became quite good at it, by asking questions and listening to everybody including the average joe archers that were quite knowledgeable, surprisingly the ELITE in archery were just naturally good at archery, they had no idea why, but at every chance they would tell everyone how good they were and give out information that was so horrible that many people quit the sport before they got the chance to enjoy it. I don't want that to happen here. I do apologize for ranting on this thread, but as I said, I've seen it happen before and all you have to do is take a look at this forum to see it happening here, and that will be a sad day.
Curt


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## CREID (Sep 11, 2015)

Oh, and I am done commenting on this thread in the interest of peace.
Curt


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## jttheclockman (Sep 11, 2015)

Hello Curt and Mal

Just wanted to make a comment on your comment. You are indeed entitled to your opinion. But may I ask you to read the entire thread before making the accusations you made??? As with most threads and suggestions things evolve. The statement about kitless only has changed by the OP. After a few members have brought to his attention that, and i will use the word WOW pens can be made with kits as well as kitless, he has agreed to this and encourage them to be included. 

You use the word ELITE. What would you call those pens that are above and beyond what you see here everyday??  Attach that word to them. This idea of this thread is not to single out anyone especially as you call them ellitists. The idea of this thread is try to get a sub category in the forums and I am not sure where you would put it (but to me it makes sense in the show your pen). It is an attempt to preserve and archive those special pens that stand out because of technique, looks, odd materials used, shape or form or whatever quaifications that are agreed upon. How this happens will take some thought. Weather it is a member vote or a committee vote or a combination remains to be seen.

As far as making them and entering into the guild is not what this site is about. You want the members to stay here and share their work here. It benefits everyone. There is no down side to this. When you were growing up and went to school, did it not occur to you that the teacher was smarter than you???  Lets make these our teachers. Lead by example and that is what you want the better pen makers to do. Not everyone can be expected to make that special outstanding pen but it is not for lack of info here or ideas. It is up to each and every one of us to do the best we can and be thankful for it. Enjoy the ride man. 

I mean you have these contests in so many catagories and so few people enter compared to the membership. But there is always a winner. Nothing holding anyone back from entering except you and you alone. 

I do not want to put words in the OP mouth but these last 2 comments are bit on the bashing side.


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## Ironwood (Sep 11, 2015)

I think if this is done properly, it will not divide or cause division in the forum. It should not be tailored to exclude any member.

I don't know what this new thing could called, but I hope it would give everyone inspiration when browsing through it. There is so much talent in this group I think it would be a shame not to highlight that and help to preserve it, just like the library is used to preserve, achive, and just plain make it easier to find stuff.

There is already a thread rating system in the SOYP forum, though it doesn't get much use. I was only made aware of it just recently when some kind person rated one of my pens with 5 stars. When I saw this I checked and there were a few other threads that someone had rated as well, it is not used as often as it should be though, a lot of worthy pens slip through unrated.
Maybe this system could be utilised better to help here, though I can see how this could be abused, it would still require moderation to keep it fair.


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## BradG (Sep 12, 2015)

lol wow. if you can get that wound up over a suggestion on a wesbite you may want to wear underwear what isn't so tight :biggrin:

In management, bad ideas are welcomed. it's a starting block. someone has the balls to speak up with an idea. The brighter people who read the bad suggestion take inspiration from it to come up with a better idea. Through evolution the end result seldom resembles the original concept.

The personal attacks you made on me for how you interpreted the post to be frank is laughable. We're all friends here, just sharing ideas. They won't always be pearlers.


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## magpens (Sep 12, 2015)

I like Katya's idea that we all have a FavoUrites folder (love the Canadian spelling !!) . That way we all can preserve what we personally really like. . Brilliant idea !!

I wonder if it would be difficult to adapt the site software to offer this feature.

And also the idea of nominating a FavoUrite of the Month !!

Forgive me for going off topic ... you have forgiven others, so forgive me too ! :biggrin::biggrin:



Katya said:


> What if we combined a few of these ideas.. post all pen pics in a larger format- I agree, sometimes it takes a while to click on each pen.
> 
> And then create a "favourites" folder that we each have.  That way we can each store our favourites online where we can access them easily.
> 
> And every month, we could nominate a favourite for "Members' Choice of the Month" or something...


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## Smitty37 (Sep 12, 2015)

*A few questions and a statement*

These questions are Rhetorical and don't require an answer, they're just asking you to think. 

How many truly unique pens do we see in the course of a Year?

Of that number, how many are unique only because of the pen blank?

Of those unique because of the blank, how many are simply someone found a new item to cast around.

Of those unique because of the blank, how many are unique because someone found a new material to make into blanks whether it looks different than other materials or not.

How many 'kit-less' pens are unique meaning they don't look like a pen that might be a kit.

Now the statement of opinion. I have seen no good reason presented to make any change to SYOP or have a hall of fame or to have any kind of elite showings.


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## jttheclockman (Sep 12, 2015)

Smitty37 said:


> These questions are Rhetorical and don't require an answer, they're just asking you to think.
> 
> How many truly unique pens do we see in the course of a Year?
> 
> ...




Those are all good questions to ask if this comes to surface.

Now let me ask you a question in regards to your opinion and by no means am I demeaning it. But food for thought.

How can this hurt??? (Please do not say feelings will be hurt I am tired of that one).  It is another tool to use. A place to go to see archieved some of the very special pens that stands head and shoulders above many that are shown here. You know you have seen pens here that fit that bill. Man I can think of quite a few that I remember. To find them now I would have to do an extensive search. Not remembering who made them or what the thread was called or what the pen was called can be daunting. 

Here is just one example  
http://www.penturners.org/forum/f17...ow-never-blow-up-blank-while-drilling-131424/

But more-so it just create a small place on the site to go look for the special pens if you truely want to see eye candy. 

Remember back when there were so many fights about vendors muddying up the threads with unsolicited adds?? 
Remember back when the Vendor forums were created???  Remember all the negativity???  Now look at them.  

Just saying How can this hurt???  You will never please everyone and that is proven over and over here. I hope it at least gets tried. If it does not work out then pull it.


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## Smitty37 (Sep 12, 2015)

jttheclockman said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> > These questions are Rhetorical and don't require an answer, they're just asking you to think.
> ...


I didn't say it would hurt JT.


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## Dale Lynch (Sep 12, 2015)

I'm with JT and others about having a special place for special pens.This discussion has happened before and will happen again.To all the objectors I ask why shouldn't these http://www.penturners.org/forum/f18/hall-fame-113146/index4.html#post1563624 pens be saved for posterity in a single place?Do you have any idea how hard and time consuming it was to go through all those threads to find these few truly unique pens.


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## jttheclockman (Sep 13, 2015)

Spanx said:


> I'm with JT and others about having a special place for special pens.This discussion has happened before and will happen again.To all the objectors I ask why shouldn't these http://www.penturners.org/forum/f18/hall-fame-113146/index4.html#post1563624 pens be saved for posterity in a single place?Do you have any idea how hard and time consuming it was to go through all those threads to find these few truly unique pens.




Oh yea, I remember that little experiment. Thanks for bringing that back. Yes those are more examples that just meet the criteria if you ask me. No one remembers them. They are not talked about. And yet they are pens that are above the norm you see here and no one can dispute that. Why shouldn't they be in the archives somewhere??? 

That little experiment just proved back then that with all the pages of SOYP pens not many stood out. We are not talking alot of pens in the course of a year. 

Well I am done with this thread. I voiced my opinion enough and I wish Brad all the luck with his attempt at this. Mine have failed over the years and maybe he will have better success. Good luck to all. Happy Turning.


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## PenPal (Sep 13, 2015)

Brad I am glad you raised the points you have the discussion has been as always an opportunity to voice thoughts its called loosely democracy.

Thank you for the stimulation your beaut creations have provided for me.

Peter.


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## Smitty37 (Sep 13, 2015)

Spanx said:


> I'm with JT and others about having a special place for special pens.This discussion has happened before and will happen again.To all the objectors I ask why shouldn't these http://www.penturners.org/forum/f18/hall-fame-113146/index4.html#post1563624 pens be saved for posterity in a single place?Do you have any idea how hard and time consuming it was to go through all those threads to find these few truly unique pens.


On the other hand, if a pen is really that good, it is worth a little time and effort to hunt up the picture.  Is it not?


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## mredburn (Sep 13, 2015)

Smitty37 said:


> Spanx said:
> 
> 
> > I'm with JT and others about having a special place for special pens.This discussion has happened before and will happen again.To all the objectors I ask why shouldn't these http://www.penturners.org/forum/f18/hall-fame-113146/index4.html#post1563624 pens be saved for posterity in a single place?Do you have any idea how hard and time consuming it was to go through all those threads to find these few truly unique pens.
> ...



Newer Members wont even know they exist.
If you dont know they exist you dont know where to find them much less what to look for.  For older members that have seen the pen and can vaguely remember who made it, yes they can probably find it. Or at the least ask in a thread if anyone else remembers the pen and pen maker.


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## Dale Lynch (Sep 13, 2015)

Give it a shot smitty.It's not a little time needed,it's alot of time.Go through thread after thread,no computer wizardry shortcutting the process.See how long it takes you to probide the threads that they are in.Afterwards come back and tell me how many members do you think are going to go through with all that to find them.


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## Smitty37 (Sep 13, 2015)

I'm not advising Jeff not to do it.  I don't see any good reason to do it but frankly, I don't really have a dog in the hunt either way.  

In almost 6 years I've never felt the need to go looking back for a specific pen picture myself.  Although I do admit to going back to the worlds top 10 most expensive pens.

If the feature is added I will be unlikely to use it if it is not added I won't feel like I've missed anything, so I'm really OK with any outcome of this debate.


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## maxwell_smart007 (Sep 13, 2015)

The question becomes 'what is feasible' - any change involves Jeff doing some coding - some of which can become extensive coding...so it has to be a feasible, warranted change, and it may only happen if and when Jeff has time to devote into making sure it works well...

That is, if it's a feasible, warranted change - so convince Jeff that you have an idea that will work!


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## BradG (Sep 13, 2015)

Id have said a tiled gallery would be great. 4 or 5 thumbnails in rows across, multiple down. The picture enlarges when clicked. Perhaps a link to the original thread under the picture

Pretty sure there's precoded forum addons for that to save Jeff the work.


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## magpens (Sep 13, 2015)

Smitty, where and how do you do that ....... ???



Smitty37 said:


> In almost 6 years I've never felt the need to go looking back for a specific pen picture myself.  Although I do admit to going back to the worlds top 10 most expensive pens.


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## GaryMGg (Sep 13, 2015)

LIL
I read this entire thread.

Raise your hand if you think these are WOW:


> Just finished these three Slimline pens.
> 
> Snakewood with Corian bands.
> Ivory inlays.
> ...









Now, try to find them without using the URL.
Good luck.


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## mark james (Sep 13, 2015)

GaryMGg said:


> LIL
> I read this entire thread.
> 
> Raise your hand if you think these are WOW:
> ...



My hand is raised...

Took about 15 seconds...  (You gave me a head start).  I did a search for "Snakewood with corian pens" 

http://www.penturners.org/forum/f56/three-new-slimline-pens-66208/

The issue as Mike said, is that newer members will have never seen these great pens.

For what it's worth, I support a forum photo album that has brilliant pens to view...  But as the above discussion indicates, there are issues...


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## Smitty37 (Sep 13, 2015)

magpens said:


> Smitty, where and how do you do that ....... ???
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I usually just google "worlds most expensive pens" or something similar.  There are at least two lists that show up.


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## magpens (Sep 13, 2015)

The direction this thread is now going is quite different from how it started in the OP.

I have reread this whole thread more than twice. I like what Spanx and Mike Redburn have said above.

I really liked looking at the group of excellent pens that Spanx previously found and posted in an earlier thread of a similar theme.

I have been enlightened to the point where I have decided that I would really like to have a gallery of such pen pictures readily available.  It would be really fun and inspiring to occasionally browse those pictures AND find out who made them and how.
I am sure that newbies would love to look at such a gallery and view what they could aspire to.

I have come to see that this is not an elitist pursuit.  I apologize for using the word previously - (noting that I was not the first poster to do so in this thread) - before I was aware that the thread was taking a different direction from the OP.

I do not like the term "Hall of Fame" because it draws the focus to the maker rather than the pen, although I admit that there is really nothing wrong with acknowledging an especially gifted/skilled/equipped maker - we all do that, e.g. Russ Fairfield.

The term "Gallery of Excellence" might be more appropriate but an even better term may emerge.

An important point to me is that it is not left up to the maker of the pen to choose to post his creation in such a Gallery from the beginning.

I don't know how the selection process/criteria should be formulated but we can discuss that and consider some suggestions that have been made in this thread.

I agree with others, including Skiprat on the first page, that creating a forum for kitless ONLY may not be the thing to do at this stage. Many of us aspire to doing kitless but right now I can think of only a dozen or less who post kitless pens regularly. 

So there it is, folks - I, along with this thread, have changed my direction ! 

I support the idea of starting a Gallery of Excellence within the compass of the IAP.


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## Smitty37 (Sep 13, 2015)

mark james said:


> GaryMGg said:
> 
> 
> > LIL
> ...


Which one would make the "hall of fame".  Why would they make it?  And how would they be chosen?


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## GaryMGg (Sep 13, 2015)

How about this: probably one of the first of its kind:

http://www.penturners.org/forum/f13/one-kind-23933/
?!?


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## Smitty37 (Sep 13, 2015)

GaryMGg said:


> How about this: probably one of the first of its kind:
> 
> http://www.penturners.org/forum/f13/one-kind-23933/
> ?!?


First let me say this...I am in no way faulting the pens or the workmanship or the design - all are great and they are lovely pens.  

Having said that First of it's kind in what way?  Slimline without a center band? Mixing man made and natural materials?  Segmenting? Making use of inlays?  I think all of those techniques were probably used earlier.

Selection for a Gallery of Excellence or anything similar, whatever it's called, becomes highly subjective.  And what does not get included can cause as much grief and what does get included causes joy.


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## GaryMGg (Sep 13, 2015)

Smitty37 said:
			
		

> Selection for a Gallery of Excellence or anything similar, whatever it's called, becomes highly subjective.  And what does not get included can cause as much grief ...



True.
Should we stop having contests?--not everyone can win.
Best of breed is subjective in an art/craft activity.
It's still valuable to see what subjective opinions deem something best, wonderful, spectacular, innovative OR whatever name is given.
I think people feel hurt too easy and often.


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## Dale Lynch (Sep 13, 2015)

Smitty,if feelings are hurt for not having a pen selected for the gallery they can rest easy.Any pen in the gallery is still not in the same league as the big boys.Top 10 Most Expensive Pens in The World 2015

I would hope still that pens selected would be an inspiration to other artists.Maybe one day an artist would rise up to compete with the bog boys.


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## Smitty37 (Sep 14, 2015)

GaryMGg said:


> Smitty37 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So do I but that's the world we live in.


----------



## Smitty37 (Sep 14, 2015)

Spanx said:


> Smitty,if feelings are hurt for not having a pen selected for the gallery they can rest easy.Any pen in the gallery is still not in the same league as the big boys.Top 10 Most Expensive Pens in The World 2015
> 
> I would hope still that pens selected would be an inspiration to other artists.Maybe one day an artist would rise up to compete with the bog boys.


 See my post #94 and also post #100 - I know about that site.


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## Ironwood (Sep 14, 2015)

There are some great pens archived in these threads, http://www.penturners.org/forum/f55/

I doubt there were any objections when they were singled out and included here.

There are a couple of beauties by Jay Pickens in there, he doesn't seem to have left a very big footprint on the forum, does anyone remember him ?


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## Ironwood (Sep 14, 2015)

Here are a couple more worthy to be added to any list.....

http://www.penturners.org/forum/f13/aluminum-acrylic-homemade-clip-80171/

http://www.penturners.org/forum/f13/titanium-twist-fountain-pen-12693/

I think Bruces pen could rival a few in that top 10 list just quietly. 
I know it is not a pen that most could not even dream of making, but hey, look at the collective talent that this forum has.


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## Dale Lynch (Sep 14, 2015)

Yes those are great pens and worthy of cosideration.When it comes to past members no longer visiting,if they made similar designs,multiple times I would recomend selecting the best one.


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## jttheclockman (Sep 14, 2015)

OK I just got home this morning and see that Smitty is still playing Devils Advocate which he is always good at. I say this Smitty as you said yourself you will find no interest in this,than maybe step away from this conversation. As far as pointing to the most expensive pens. What is the point there???  This is not about how many diamonds are used or gold cast on a pen. That is what those pens are and there are plenty more examples of them. I can show you sites that have tons of expensive pens. We are talking strickly this site. The pen makers of the past present and future should have a forum where they can go to and look at some of the extreme pens displayed HERE. Has nothing at all to do with cost of pen or money spent making it. 

I see people are digging out old pens that they remember which is great and hope if this come to light that we have the opportunity to include them. Some of those bring back memories especially when you start showing some of Eagles creations. I think that will be somewhat of a challenge to go back and relive some of these pens. It will be easier from this point on. But who knows maybe someone ten years from now may look back at a pen and ask the question why such and such pen did not make it??? So this can be an ever evolving forum..

I am getting a sense that it may be time to start another thread and start getting some ground rules established and or  ideas as to how this can take place. We also may like to choose a Title for this. One thing I agree with Brad on is we need to let the photo be the center point. Weather it is full size or thumbnail photos is something maybe Jeff would have to decide. But somewhere under the photo a link to the thread should be included in case someone wants to check that pen out further. Now of course certain people here are going to have multiple pens displayed but that is to be expected because they may work with many mediums and designs. It should be the pen honored and not the crafter. I highly think if we as adults leave the dirty politics out of this that this can be a great idea. Yes I have fought for this idea before and will any time someone brings it to light.  I think it has some momentum so lets keep it going.


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## Smitty37 (Sep 14, 2015)

jttheclockman said:


> OK I just got home this morning and see that Smitty is still playing Devils Advocate which he is always good at. I say this Smitty as you said yourself you will find no interest in this,than maybe step away from this conversation. As far as pointing to the most expensive pens. What is the point there???  This is not about how many diamonds are used or gold cast on a pen. That is what those pens are and there are plenty more examples of them. I can show you sites that have tons of expensive pens. We are talking strickly this site. The pen makers of the past present and future should have a forum where they can go to and look at some of the extreme pens displayed HERE. Has nothing at all to do with cost of pen or money spent making it.
> 
> I see people are digging out old pens that they remember which is great and hope if this come to light that we have the opportunity to include them. Some of those bring back memories especially when you start showing some of Eagles creations. I think that will be somewhat of a challenge to go back and relive some of these pens. It will be easier from this point on. But who knows maybe someone ten years from now may look back at a pen and ask the question why such and such pen did not make it??? So this can be an ever evolving forum..
> 
> I am getting a sense that it may be time to start another thread and start getting some ground rules established and or  ideas as to how this can take place. We also may like to choose a Title for this. One thing I agree with Brad on is we need to let the photo be the center point. Weather it is full size or thumbnail photos is something maybe Jeff would have to decide. But somewhere under the photo a link to the thread should be included in case someone wants to check that pen out further. Now of course certain people here are going to have multiple pens displayed but that is to be expected because they may work with many mediums and designs. It should be the pen honored and not the crafter. I highly think if we as adults leave the dirty politics out of this that this can be a great idea. Yes I have fought for this idea before and will any time someone brings it to light.  I think it has some momentum so lets keep it going.


*JT why do you feel the need to get personal?* 

My casual mention of the most expensive pen list was obviously in passing - a member who didn't seem to know it existed asked how I found and I told him.  *Someone else posted a link to it, *and I referred him back to the first couple of posts so it would not become a subject of this thread.

Check my posts and you'll find that my position has always been neutral. Not once have I said don't do it.  I said that I had seen no good reason offered to do it as it was originally presented, which is not the same as saying "don't do it." 

Once the thread had moved to where most of the posts were talking about implementing it and someone posted a picture they felt represented the kind of pens they thought should be included.  I asked why they thought they should be included. After I clearly stated I thought they were beautiful pens and the workmanship of the maker was great.

When the answer to my question came back - I asked a couple of more questions pertaining to the reason given as to why they should be included.  

Actually they are the kind of questions that will have to be answered about every pen you include in such a gallery.  Unless  entry is made so easy that it will be meaningless, there will have to be a reason why each pen chosen.  

If asking hard questions intended to make people think a little is playing the devil's advocate then I am guilty.


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## Carl Fisher (Sep 14, 2015)

I've been on the forum for quite a few years now and there are still a ton of WOW pens that I know I've never had the pleasure of seeing. Either because I can't keep up with the forum every day or because they were posted before I really got started.

A gallery that can be browsed would be wonderful. If you find a particular person who made a pen that made you go WOW, odds are they have made others and I'd love to be able to click on their album and see the pens they've made.

There is a "gallery" associated with each user already, but that requires people actually using it and knowing who to search out, especially if they are not an actively posting member anymore.

SOYP is a great place, but it definitely doesn't lend to visually browsing historical entries.


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## jeff (Sep 14, 2015)

BradG said:


> Id have said a tiled gallery would be great. 4 or 5 thumbnails in rows across, multiple down. The picture enlarges when clicked. Perhaps a link to the original thread under the picture
> 
> Pretty sure there's precoded forum addons for that to save Jeff the work.



Every album category has a gallery view.

Such as this for the featured pens album.

Edit: I intended to say that I can create an album into which anyone can upload.


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## southernclay (Sep 14, 2015)

Carl you just hit on something I've been thinking. The historic aspect more so than the right now thinning down of the heap so to speak.

I liked the OP's point. The kitless category doesn't quite cover it but how do you narrow down the field? The quantity of likes that Brad mentioned is the simplest way to do it going forward. That may turn into some politics and strategic bumps but nothings perfect. So how many likes sends this pen into WOWdom? I would think 30, 40 or 50? I don't know that I have ever received that many likes on a post, I've made some decent pens but none that I would feel need to be pushed into a special section so that's why I think start around 30-40. 50 happens on a rare occasion it seems.

The downside with the "like" election is the past pens that occasionally pop up and are fantastic. Again nothing's perfect but it would be a cool thing to have a special gallery.


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## Ed McDonnell (Sep 14, 2015)

I wonder how hard it would be to implement the ability to search the SOYP forum based on a specified  number of likes.  For example, if you could search SOYP for posts with more than 50 likes it would show you a pretty good selection of popular pens.  Want to see more, search for 25+ likes.  Want to see fewer search for 100+ likes.  Want to see every pen, just go thread by thread like many do now.

I have no idea how hard a "like" search criteria would be to implement, but it would eliminate many of the concerns expressed in this thread.  No pens would be singled out as more or less awesome than another, other than the expression of "likes" that already takes place.  Those interested could find the more popular pens whenever they want.  Nobody needs to make a decision on what to add to a gallery or what to exclude from a gallery.  And there would be no separate gallery for anybody to maintain.  It's all in the SOYP and people can choose to view it however they want.  


Ed


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## jeff (Sep 14, 2015)

Ed McDonnell said:


> I wonder how hard it would be to implement the ability to search the SOYP forum based on a specified  number of likes.  For example, if you could search SOYP for posts with more than 50 likes it would show you a pretty good selection of popular pens.  Want to see more, search for 25+ likes.  Want to see fewer search for 100+ likes.  Want to see every pen, just go thread by thread like many do now.
> 
> I have no idea how hard a "like" search criteria would be to implement, but it would eliminate many of the concerns expressed in this thread.  No pens would be singled out as more or less awesome than another, other than the expression of "likes" that already takes place.  Those interested could find the more popular pens whenever they want.  Nobody needs to make a decision on what to add to a gallery or what to exclude from a gallery.  And there would be no separate gallery for anybody to maintain.  It's all in the SOYP and people can choose to view it however they want.
> 
> ...



That would require custom code and isn't something I believe should be done at this point. The forum is so heavily customized now that the looming upgrade will be a nightmare. I don't want to make it any worse.

Thread rating is already turned on in that forum, and that's a sortable field.


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## BradG (Sep 14, 2015)

jeff said:


> Every album category has a gallery view.
> 
> Such as this for the featured pens album.
> 
> Edit: I intended to say that I can create an album into which anyone can upload.



Would there be a way of hiding all of the file information? just it kinda looks like a file browser more than one of those swish photo galleries.




Ed McDonnell said:


> I wonder how hard it would be to implement the ability to search the SOYP forum based on a specified  number of likes.  For example, if you could search SOYP for posts with more than 50 likes it would show you a pretty good selection of popular pens.  Want to see more, search for 25+ likes.  Want to see fewer search for 100+ likes.  Want to see every pen, just go thread by thread like many do now.
> 
> I have no idea how hard a "like" search criteria would be to implement, but it would eliminate many of the concerns expressed in this thread.  No pens would be singled out as more or less awesome than another, other than the expression of "likes" that already takes place.  Those interested could find the more popular pens whenever they want.  Nobody needs to make a decision on what to add to a gallery or what to exclude from a gallery.  And there would be no separate gallery for anybody to maintain.  It's all in the SOYP and people can choose to view it however they want.
> 
> ...



Would be good if attributes were possible when posting a pen such as stating material type, so for arguments sake I could search for metal pens. I appreciate that would be alot of coding, and can understands Jeff's concerns about trying to integrate more with an update looming.

Jeff, just a thought... but rather than touching the forum, would hosting a photography gallery on the web server be possible? it could be integrated into the site just by links being placed on the forum which direct to it or opens it in a sub frame, if that's the correct wording.

Granted this one is a hosted online service, but serves as an example as to how they might be displayed.

Pixieset - Example

I quite like the design of the gallery on my website too, which is hosted by Wix. Not sure where we would find such a gallery as server side software though


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## jttheclockman (Sep 14, 2015)

Smitty I am not going to turn this into a battle of words with you because from the past I know where it goes and it is not pretty. 

One thing has to be remembered when bringing up photos of the past that there was no "like" system in place. That was something that came across within a few years ago and Jeff could tell you when exactly. 

I am thinking this project would require 2 parts. The first part would be a place to store the photos which I vote for in the Photos forums under its own heading. The second part where you can post a photo of a pen to be considered in the first part. There it can be voted on or discussed. My thoughts would be to have such pens posted  and the like system can be implemented. Each  pen starting from zero.  A time limit of say 1 year and  have a target number of likes it must reach to be accepted. 60 or higher seems logical. If it is truely a WOW pen that should not be a problem. Gives plenty of time for members to view as long as you can only vote once. At the end of the year those that make the grade are transfered and then the post is removed from the request thread. 

Now here comes the technical stuff though. Is it possible to to do this automatically with software or would it have to be done manually with a person(or persons) chosen to oversee the entries and remove them.  Each pen needs to be seen for that designated time such as 1 year. 

Now in all fairness the "Request thread" would probably be too busy unless we limit it somehow for a short period of time. You do not want to overwhelm people right away and discourage them from looking and voting. It will eventually slow down and become more managable as time passes. Not many pens get that WOW look of approval during the year.

OK That is some of my thoughts. This will be an ongoing discussion and I see this as a changable event also. As time goes by things may change and criteria may have to change.


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## jeff (Sep 14, 2015)

BradG said:


> jeff said:
> 
> 
> > Every album category has a gallery view.
> ...



Brad - we have a photo gallery - what are its shortcomings?

EDIT: (I gotta stop hitting post so fast!)

I really don't want to add another component into the mix. Importing and integrating get complicated.

Also, I can minimize the amount of data shown on the album page.


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## BradG (Sep 14, 2015)

Jeff
Good to hear the one already in place is tweakable. Mainly just hiding what's crossed off here. I guess it's not really a big issue if the info is there, so long as the thumbnails are larger.








I like the three across view, but perhaps increase the size of the thumbnail x 3?

Just my thoughts..

Edit: I notice when you click the link it displays further info about the picture, which is where we could put the link to the actual thread and the name of the pen maker etc. As the same is loaded when you click on the picture itself, this link could be hidden too.


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## Smitty37 (Sep 14, 2015)

jttheclockman said:


> Smitty I am not going to turn this into a battle of words with you because from the past I know where it goes and it is not pretty.


Then stick to the subject and refrain from personal comments.


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## Skie_M (Sep 14, 2015)

BradG said:


> Would be good if attributes were possible when posting a pen such as stating material type, so for arguments sake I could search for metal pens. though



That sounds like a nice upgrade option ...

You could allow searches by tags that describe the target style of pens ...


Metal / Wood / Acrylic / Composite / Segmented / Cast

And further describe the type of components for the barrels:

Brass / Copper / Silver / Stainless Steel / Aluminum ect ...

For wood, what ever species ... for acrylic, whatever the item was named and by it's predominant color ... for composite, what items were included with the resin ... for Segmented, the major wood components or style (Celtic Knots, ect) and for Cast, the subject matter (sea life, thin blue line, stamps, ect)


When you upload a photo into your gallery, setting the appropriate keywords would make your pens more easy and friendly to find, and this would also encourage people to take the time to become more familiar with the forum software.


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## Smitty37 (Sep 14, 2015)

I have no input regarding if or how this should be implemented and incorporated into the site. I assume that some way something could be done.  I still have a couple of questions that will need to be answered regarding the basic idea.

There are hundreds, if not thousands of pens submitted to SOYP each year.

How will the decision be made to consider a pen for inclusion?  Nominations? Pulling names out of a hat?  Including every pen submitted to SOYP. 

Once the decision is made to consider an pen for inclusion - who will make the decision on whether a pen should be included or not.

If a pen is suggested for inclusion and not included - will there be an explanation of why not?  Who will make the explanation, will it be public or private?

Don't take this as opposition to the idea - I have already said I am neutral on that.   But things being done without thinking them thru often wind up with unintended consequences that do more harm than good and I want this site to avoid them.


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## BradG (Sep 14, 2015)

As everyone had made pretty clear its not a hall of fame as the focus is on the pen not the artist, I suggest all pens what receive 50+ likes. No arguments. If it got 50 plus likes it was clearly popular for one reason or another and is worth flagging.

I would take it a step further with the other suggestions for first of its kind limiting it to unique pens, but I'm foreseeing alot of arguing and sniping. Most probably best to keep it at 50+ likes unless someone has another number in mind.


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## Smitty37 (Sep 14, 2015)

BradG said:


> As everyone had made pretty clear its not a hall of fame as the focus is on the pen not the artist, I suggest all pens what receive 50+ likes. No arguments*. If it got 50 plus likes it was clearly popular for one reason or another and is worth flagging.
> *
> I would take it a step further with the other suggestions for first of its kind limiting it to unique pens, but I'm foreseeing alot of arguing and sniping. Most probably best to keep it at 50+ likes unless someone has another number in mind.


It seems that the criteria is changing from unique or special to popular.

How long do you think it will be before we are discussing how to "limit" the number of pens in the 'special' gallery?  M;y guess would be about a year, possibly two.  I could be wrong but I think that there will be a lot more "likes" given. 

I have one of your pens BradG, that if such a site existed I would think belonged there because it is unique I don't know if it ever even was put in SOYP.


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## BradG (Sep 14, 2015)

Popular generally is unique and special. Not always but usually.

Smitty apologies if I've got this wrong, but wasnt it the Egyptian themed pen you have?
http://www.penturners.org/forum/f13/life-ra-kitless-105286/

So this one wouldn't have gone in based on the 43 votes 
When I mentioned average joe pens these are the ones I was meaning.. referring to their shape. tubular in design, body and a lid. an average joe pen. 

This is one I posted later, which received 100 likes.
http://www.penturners.org/forum/f13/maybe-you-need-change-spark-plug-108476/
Unique in design - received a lot of likes. sure the odd one will slip through the net, but if it's truely that eye catching it will receive them.

Yes the thought of lots more likes in a year crossed my mind too, but we can play devils advocate until the cows come home. it's also a non brainer... if that happens we would just increase the threshold to a number everyone agrees on in the future, but we'l worry about that when we get to it. 

By all means if anyone has another idea as to how it could work I'm all ears but the strongest suggestion I've heard so far is by like count.


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## Smitty37 (Sep 14, 2015)

BradG said:


> Smitty apologies if I've got this wrong, but wasnt it the Egyptian themed pen you have?
> http://www.penturners.org/forum/f13/life-ra-kitless-105286/


 Yes that's the one.


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## H2O (Sep 14, 2015)

BradG said:


> Popular generally is unique and special. Not always but usually.
> 
> This is one I posted later, which received 100 likes.
> http://www.penturners.org/forum/f13/maybe-you-need-change-spark-plug-108476/
> Unique in design - received a lot of likes.



Based on the date of this post...http://www.penturners.org/forum/f13/nova-picnic-pen-47321/

It's not unique at all. Was done six years ago.:wink:


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## jsolie (Sep 14, 2015)

Okay, I kinda glossed over page four and the last part of page 3.

At the bottom of each post is a "like" button.  Many times when someone posts a really nice pen, there are both a lot of "likes" and a lot of posts about the pen.  Usually there are more "likes" than posts.  Note I said usually.

At the bottom of the SOYP forum (and at the bottom of every one, I would imagine) is a drop-down where you can specify a sort order.  This drop down's options are currently "Last Post Time", "Thread Start Time", "Number of Replies", "Number of Views", "Thread Starter" and "Thread rating."

Of these, Number of replies, number of views and thread rating all give clues as to thread with a particularly nice pen.

I'm not sure what the limitations of the forum software are, but it'd be pretty neat to be able to have "Number of Likes" as one of these sort options.

That way, if you want to see pens that a lot of people like, there you go.  Maybe some magic number could be derived by adding likes, views, replies and rating to provide some sort of nearly anonymous community ranking of a particular thread.


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