# Who here uses spray lacquer?



## Dominic Greco (Sep 19, 2005)

Anyone here use spray lacquer as a finish for their pens?

After some success with bottle stoppers, I decided to try this finish out on some pens. However, I ran out of PSI spray lacquer and the can I bought to replace it was defective (it spurted out all over my hands! So back to PSI it goes for a replacement).

I was wondering if those of you that have tried this finish have any tips they'd like to pass along.


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## Randy_ (Sep 19, 2005)

Ken Nelson(Stars & Stripes Pen Kit) at www.kallenshaanwoods.com recommends the Deft Spray Lacquer which you can pick up at most Home Depots or Lowe's for about half of what PSI charges.  He recommends the semi-gloss or satin variety and warns against using the glossy version; but I don't remember why?  I've got a can of the satin in my shop; but haven't tried it yet.


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## Doghouse (Sep 19, 2005)

Deft is OK, but I find it can orange peel very easily, that and many of the spray cans have been *()*.  
I found it is ok if you mix it 60/40 with thinner and spray with HVLP, multiple thin coats. 

I have heard there are better out there, I am using the Sherman Williams brand now and like it much better.


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## Old Griz (Sep 19, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Doghouse_
> <br />Deft is OK, but I find it can orange peel very easily, that and many of the spray cans have been *()*.
> _I found it is ok if you mix it 60/40 with thinner and spray with HVLP, multiple thin coats_.
> 
> I have heard there are better out there, I am using the Sherman Williams brand now and like it much better.



That is a wonderful idea, IF you have a HVLP system and/or the funds to purchase one... some of us don't..
I used Deft for a long time before changing to Enduro and as long as I kept the coats thin I never had an orange peel problem... I applied it with the lathe running at the slowest speed and waited about 10 minutes between coats... I would apply 5-6 coats over an hour then put the blank on my holding rack and allow it to cure for 5-6 days before buffing... I have also used the Watco brand with good success... 
However, since using Enduro, I doubt I will go back to the fumes of lacquer... I am getting the same results without the potential health problems


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## Czarcastic (Sep 19, 2005)

I use Deft Spray lacquer on some pens and bowls.  I've used both the gloss and semi-gloss with similar results. As Tom said, orange peel can be avoided by using THIN coats and SLOW spinning.  I usually don't spray finish "on-lathe", but when I do, it's either at the slowest speed or even turning by hand.  
One of the other tricks I've learned with using lacquer spray is to "burnish" between coats.
Spray a thin coat, let it sit for about 10-15 minutes, then crank up the speed of the lathe to 2000+RPM, grab a handful of shavings, and burnish the finish.  The heat helps the lacquer to set and won't scratch or leave marks.  
Then wait another 10-15 minutes and repeat the whole spray/set/burninsh procedure five or six times.


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## nilsatcraft (Sep 19, 2005)

I've always a been a big fan of the spray lacquers.  I use Masters Magic Spray Lacquers (both Gloss and Satin).  My method of application is just to turn the lathe off and spray the pen lengthwise (L-R or R-L) with a nice thick coat, rotate a bit and spray that side, and continue until the whole pen is coated.  I then slowly rotate the pen by hand with the handwheel for 3-5 minutes.  Just long enough for the finish to set up.  Then I set the blank aside (usually on the mandrel) for it to cure for a little while.  I've messed up some blanks by over applying the finish but usually they come out great.  

Randy: Just FYI, Ken's last name is actually Nelson (or is it Nelsen?). []


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## ilikewood (Sep 19, 2005)

Spray or dip lacquers are my choice of finishes.  Their ease of use and toughness are a real benefit.  Like all finishes though, there is a good sized learning curve to do the best.  I have used Deft, and as long as thin coats are used, it seems to work well.


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## William Young (Sep 19, 2005)

Tom;
You mentioned Enduro and said you wouldn't go back to the fumes of lacquer. Is Enduro a Water Base Lacquer? I have used WB lacquer for years on a lot of things I make including pens. I have a HVLP gun that hooks to my air compressor and it works very well. I would never go back to the old fashioned solvent based lacquers. I sprayed that for enough years and it can and will cause irreversible neurological problems if not used with TOTAL  ventilation. Back when I was building and restoring and spraying guitars with solvent based laquers I had a proper spray booth and if it wasn't for that even the couple brain cells I have left would be gone. 
I too would never go back to conventional solvent based laquer.
W.Y.


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## Ryan (Sep 19, 2005)

I used the Deft spray until I ran out[] I also had a gal of Deft and was too cheap to go buy a can of thinned laq. I now wipe on my own mixture and with some practice I am getting better results than when I sprayed.

Ryan


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## Ron in Drums PA (Sep 19, 2005)

I've used Deft and Masters Magic Spray Lacquers

Masters Magic Spray Lacquer is a far superior product.


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## MDWine (Sep 19, 2005)

I've been using the gloss spray Deft.  I love it.
I put my blanks on a 'threaded-rod-mandrel' after sanding down to 1000 grit.
I then spray on three coats of lacquer, spinning the blank slowly by hand.
I wait for 15 or 20 minutes between coats.
I do the same thing on day two.
6 coats total;
after NO LESS than one week (depends of temp and humidity), I carefully and lightly MicroMesh the finish down to 12000.
A bit time consuming, and it takes patience.  It's getting easier to wait the week to finish the pen, but it sure is worth it.  The finished product looks like wood under glass, and has a very smooth warm feel.  I really REALLY like it!!

I have used ONLY Deft gloss.  I have some satin, but haven't used it on a pen yet.
Hopefully I can find some time and PATIENCE to take some better quality shots of the finished pens to show you.


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## MDWine (Sep 19, 2005)

Ron, You got in just before me!!!

What makes Master's a superior product.  As I mentioned, I've only used Deft, but if something else promises to be better, I'm willing to give it a whack!  (I have some enduro, but haven't use it either.... yet!)


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## Old Griz (Sep 19, 2005)

> _Originally posted by William Young_
> <br />Tom;
> You mentioned Enduro and said you wouldn't go back to the fumes of lacquer. Is Enduro a Water Base Lacquer? I have used WB lacquer for years on a lot of things I make including pens. I have a HVLP gun that hooks to my air compressor and it works very well. I would never go back to the old fashioned solvent based lacquers. I sprayed that for enough years and it can and will cause irreversible neurological problems if not used with TOTAL  ventilation. Back when I was building and restoring and spraying guitars with solvent based laquers I had a proper spray booth and if it wasn't for that even the couple brain cells I have left would be gone.
> I too would never go back to conventional solvent based laquer.
> W.Y.



Yes Bill, Enduro is water based... I agree about the brain cells.. I need all I have left to deal with my little one..


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## Ron in Drums PA (Sep 19, 2005)

> _Originally posted by MDWine_
> <br />Ron, You got in just before me!!!
> 
> What makes Master's a superior product.  As I mentioned, I've only used Deft, but if something else promises to be better, I'm willing to give it a whack!  (I have some enduro, but haven't use it either.... yet!)



Mike, I've only used Masters on boxes and goblets, and so far, not on pens. I also spray off the lathe.

Nothing scientific why I like Masters better.

I just found Masters was easier to apply, never had problems with orange peel, and never had a run.

Deft seems to take more coats and cloud easier. Every time I used Deft I always got a run. I hate sanding down runs!

JMO.


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## MDWine (Sep 19, 2005)

I have gotten a run or two, but I feel it is more my error than the product.  I also get orange peel, but the MM gets that gone pretty quick.

I'll have to try the Masters, though.  Thanks!


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## DCBluesman (Sep 19, 2005)

> _Originally posted by William Young_
> <br />Tom;  Is Enduro a Water Base Lacquer? I have used WB lacquer for years on a lot of things I make including pens.
> W.Y.


The Enduro that most folks on this site use is the polyurethane.  It is not a comparable product to their lacquer.


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## Old Griz (Sep 19, 2005)

> _Originally posted by DCBluesman_
> <br />
> 
> 
> ...



DUH!!!!!! was not thinking when I typed that... It is water based but not a lacquer... Sorry Bill... 
Thanks Lou


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## Dominic Greco (Sep 19, 2005)

Thanks for the input. I will have to give the Deft a try.

I'm also curious about the Enduro. I tried to look up that name using Yahoo and found a ton of references to the "Enduro" Car Race!

From what I see in your responses, it is important to have the blank spinning slowly when you are applying the finish. Since I tend to "batch" work, I need a solution to spray at least a couple of pens at once. Maybe I could do as someone suggested here at fabricate some type of mandrel from a straight piece of all-thread.

Thanks again!


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## William Young (Sep 19, 2005)

When I refer to WB laquer I am using this one. The Oxford Ultima WB lacquer.
http://www.woodessence.com/Targetdefault.html
W.Y.


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## Randy_ (Sep 19, 2005)

> _Originally posted by nilsatcraft_<br />Randy: Just FYI, Ken's last name is actually Nelson (or is it Nelsen?). []



Nils:  I knew that!!  My apologies to Ken.  Guess I sniffed a littlr too much lacquer last night??  []


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## Randy_ (Sep 19, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Doghouse_
> <br />Deft is OK, but I find it can orange peel very easily, that and many of the spray cans have been *()*....



I assume that *()* means no pressure??(never seen that symbol before) Would be hard to buy a can that was empty as they would feel light.

The first can I bought was missing the spray nozzle.  Didn't notice it until I got home...GRRRRR!![!]  You can check them at the store; but you have to look close as the cap is an opaque white plastic and the nozzle is difficult to see.  Yeah......I know....I could just remove the cap so the comics out there can save their humorous comments!![]


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## DCBluesman (Sep 19, 2005)

> _Originally posted by William Young_
> <br />When I refer to WB laquer I am using this one. The Oxford Ultima WB lacquer.
> http://www.woodessence.com/Targetdefault.html
> W.Y.


That's what I use as well, Bill.  In fact, I think I got the idea from you! []


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## William Young (Sep 19, 2005)

You are not alone Lou . A lot of people that are using that product got the idea from me.
It's great stuff.
W.Y.


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## Doghouse (Sep 20, 2005)

[teal]I assume that *()* means no pressure??(never seen that symbol before) Would be hard to buy a can that was empty as they would feel light.

No, that would be insert own expletive.  

If you have an air compressor of any size, you can pickup the HF drip HVLP sprayer for around $20.  It is extremely easy to use, and for the most part if you clean it, you will have no problem for years.  Is it the best gun, no.  Will it work for pens, and other small items yes.  The important things are to use light coats, and watch the humitidy.  (blushing) 

The primary difference is that with laquer you have a drying time, not a cure time.  If you make a mistake or a drip, you can melt it off with thinner, where as with poly you must sand / scrape it off.


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## woodguy1975 (Sep 21, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Dominic Greco_
> <br />Thanks for the input. I will have to give the Deft a try.
> 
> I'm also curious about the Enduro. I tried to look up that name using Yahoo and found a ton of references to the "Enduro" Car Race!
> ...



Hey Dominic, good to see you on this forum.  Dominic really helped me out when I was first getting started turning bowls and such.  I got my 1642 soon after him and followed him with the tressel.  Still haven't built that balast box though. 

I just wanted to point out one thing for Lacquer on pens.  It will turn black with use from the oils in your hand.  If a pen is really going to be used lacquer isn't a good solution.  For a collector that doesn't use his pens, it would be fine.  DAMHIKT  I learned the hard way on this one.  Enduro is a good solution that is an alternative to the CA finish.  You can get it at Compliant Spray Systems.

http://www.compliantspraysystems.com/

Good Luck Dominic and stick around. 

John


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## Old Griz (Sep 21, 2005)

> _Originally posted by woodguy1975_
> <br />I just wanted to point out one thing for Lacquer on pens.  _It will turn black with use from the oils in your hand_.  If a pen is really going to be used lacquer isn't a good solution.  For a collector that doesn't use his pens, it would be fine.  DAMHIKT  I learned the hard way on this one.  Enduro is a good solution that is an alternative to the CA finish.  You can get it at Compliant Spray Systems.
> 
> http://www.compliantspraysystems.com/
> ...



John, interesting observation... I have had customers using lacquer finished pens for a year and have never seen this happen... my wife's pen is a lacquer finished BOW Euro and it looks as good as the day I made it over a year ago.... 
What time frame are you talking about...


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## woodguy1975 (Sep 22, 2005)

> John, interesting observation... I have had customers using lacquer finished pens for a year and have never seen this happen... my wife's pen is a lacquer finished BOW Euro and it looks as good as the day I made it over a year ago....
> What time frame are you talking about...



Griz,

It depends on use.  I made a daily user and it turned in about 2 months for me right where I hold the pen while writing.  When I first started selling I was using an instrument lacquer.  Very high quality stuff from Behlen and got back about 1/2 the pens I sold because of this phenomena within the first 6 months.  It might depend on the particular persons chemistry.  Some folks who touch tool steel cause it to rust immediately where they touched and others don't.  Could be something along those lines.  I don't know.  I have talked to other pen makers that have seen the same thing in my woodturners club and local woodshop.  

I love the look and feel of the lacquered finish, but won't use it.  I don't want to have to worry about whether that customer will have a problem with it turning black or not.

I'm surprised this hasn't been heavily noticed here.  I guess most of us are using CA. 

Thanks,

John


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## Ryan (Sep 22, 2005)

That is interesting! I have never had any complaints on any of my lacquer pens. I wonder if it was the type of lacquer you were using?

Ryan


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## Old Griz (Sep 22, 2005)

[quoteWhen _I first started selling I was using an instrument lacquer.  Very high quality stuff from Behlen and got back about 1/2 the pens I sold because of this phenomena within the first 6 months_.[/quote]

This especially I find very interesting, since the lacquer mentioned it made to be use on a musical instrument that is handled as much or more so than most pens...


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## William Young (Sep 22, 2005)

I have never had one back and never a complaint. My own pen that is in my shirt pocket every day for 14 months now and used a lot still looks like brand new. Of course that is WB laquer that I use which is an entirely different formulation so that may have something to do with it.
Something else to consider is that laquers have a shelf life. Not necessarily how long we have had it but how old it was before we got it.
W.Y.


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## DCBluesman (Sep 22, 2005)

I've never heard of lacquer turning black from the oils in our skin.  I have lacquer-finished pens that are over 80 years old, that have been heavily used, which do not show this phenomenom, nor do any of my guitars, which get played regularly (some of which are 30 years old or older).  Do you have any data or references on this or is the report merely apocryphal?


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## RussFairfield (Sep 22, 2005)

Lou asked me if I had anything to say on this topic, and I do. 

The short answer is that there should be no reaction, that I know of, with any body oils or acids and any lacquer after the solvents have totally evaporated. There are several reasons for problems with a lacquer finish, including it turning "black"; and all of them have to do with the solvents not being totally evaporated.

We use lacquer because most of the time it is the easiest finish to use, but when there are problems with it, we realize that it is the most difficult of finishes to do well. The reason for most of these problem is the high solubility of almost everything in the solvents

There is always the possibility that the thinners in the lacquer are reacting with something in the wood, something we have put on the wood, or the wood itself. We can't do anything about the wood itself, but we can control what we put ON the wood. 

Sanding dust is always something that can be absorbed back into the surface film before the solvents have evaporated. This becomes more of a problem as we sand to a finer grit because the particles are smaller. 

Some will advocate cleaning the wood with lacquer thinner or Acetone to remove sanding dust and any excess natural oils before application of the finish. However, this solvent must also be allowed time to evaporate before application of the lacquer. Not allowing this solvent to evaporate can be worse that not using it at all, because it will bring thecontaminates to the surface where they are held in suspension and easilly absorbed into the finish that is applied. And, that can happen to other finishes that are applied after cleaning the wood with lacquer thinner. 

The best approach is that there should be nothing on the wood under a lacquer finish other than a CA glue used as a grain filler; and we can get away with using CA glue only because it cures quickly. Everything else can cause a problem if it isn't fully cured or the thinners and solvents have not evaporated. The rule here is that, if you can still smell it, it hasn't evaporated yet.

The rule for lacquer is, wait at least a day before assembling the pen and then do it carefully and protect the pen with a soft flannel cloth or soft cotton gloves, wait at least a week before buffing the pen, and wait at least a month before using the pen. Double these times if the surface film is thick, such as from a dipping application or multiple spray coats. 

Unevaporated thinners can absorb acids and oils from our fingers into the lacquer. This can darken the surface film, and the oils will soften the surface film and make it more easilly damaged during use and handling. 

Fine surface scratches can be imprinted into the surface of the lacquer if it is handled too soon after it has been applied. These scratches will then become filled with body oils and grime where they can react with any unevaporated thinners. 

Buffing the lacquer finish too soon will create even more surface scratches than handling. 

Lacquer should be a hard and durable finish. If you have a lacquer finish that is soft and easilly damaged, you are not waiting long enough before handling or using the pen. If you are having a problem with a darkening of the lacquer, it is because you didn't wait long enough before handling, or there is something under the lacquer that is causing the problem. I know of no other reason for a lacquer turning black with age and use.


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## woodguy1975 (Sep 22, 2005)

Perhaps there was another issue, but I know of 3 people who have seen the same thing.  Perhaps we all got a bad batch of lacquer since we all buy from the same place.  I wouldn't think so.....

Guess I'm out there on this one. []

John


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