# I do...Yes I REALLY REALLY do - Hate CA Finish



## bubbamorse (May 4, 2012)

After much trial and even more error, I've decided that CA Finishes are a Unicorn. You know, that mythical creature that only a rare few have ever seen and an even rarer few have achieved!


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## hilltopper46 (May 4, 2012)

Keep searching for the light, Grasshopper, and some day when you least expect it, the light will find you.


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## 76winger (May 4, 2012)

Focus on the force Luke, let it flow through you. You can't control it, but only focus it. 

Seriously. Have you ever seen anyone do it? I watched two people do it and It's been a piece of cake.


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## jlord (May 4, 2012)

bubbamorse said:


> After much trial and even more error, I've decided that CA Finishes are a Unicorn. You know, that mythical creature that only a rare few have ever seen and an even rarer few have achieved!


How do you go about your finish process?


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## bubbamorse (May 4, 2012)

jlord said:


> bubbamorse said:
> 
> 
> > After much trial and even more error, I've decided that CA Finishes are a Unicorn. You know, that mythical creature that only a rare few have ever seen and an even rarer few have achieved!
> ...



A very talented turner talked me through his approach in detail, which I've been using now for better than a week And it has (by far) worked the best out of everything I've tried, but..I just can't get it to an even finish, there are always some ripples in it. So I sand out the ripples in between coats, but trying to get it to the point where there is little sanding required. Perhaps, I'm just getting impatient...but I just get the feeling that I'm missing something. How long does it take to get a good finish? I usually am able to get to the point where I can sand in a day. I put on multiple coats throughout the day. using accelerator helps speed the process, but I still take a day to apply multiple coats (8~10 coats of Medium/Heavy CA). Is this normal? Or am I moving too apprehensively in between coats?


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## renowb (May 4, 2012)

Bubba son, keep the faith. How do you get to Carnegie Hall? Practice, Practice, Practice!


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## wouldentu2? (May 4, 2012)

If you apply too much CA and move it too quickly from end to end you will leave ripples in it. Don't worry about the rag sticking, move it back and forth three times at a moderate pace. I complete the pen with 6 to 10 coats in less than 2 hours. I use Accelerator by wetting a 1 1/2 " square rag, wet it with 5 squirts of accelerator and lightly wipe it across the pen with the lathe turning. On the first coat let it lightly touch the blank on its way across or it will stick. The smoother the blank is the more pressure you can put on the blank. After that apply your coats and sand as needed.


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## Dorno (May 4, 2012)

I am sorry to hear that you are having so much trouble with the CA finish and I have to agree I was having so much trouble and just could not get to where I was happy doing it BUT then I switched to THIN CA and have never looked back it has reduced the chances of the lines on the blank to virtually ZERO. So give that a try before you give up on the idea and also I believe alot of guy just start with thin CA to give it a couple of coats but I prefer to thin CA the whole way.

I hope it helps a little

Cheers    Ian


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## Haynie (May 4, 2012)

I've been using the stickfast stuff.


Seriously If I can get a good finish any body can.


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## Daniel (May 4, 2012)

I still can't figure out jsut where the idea that a CA finish is applied with no rough surface and no need to sand it smooth. I do know that for years people have been frustrated with trying to achieve a CA finish. This is after years of everyone doing them with little to no problem. SOmewhere along the line the whole CA BLO thing got started and I think people started getting told you can apply CA as a smooth shining finish. I was never told that when I started. It is a mess, a big mess and you then sand and polish it.
Apply the CA then sand it down. sand it down with Micro Mesh and it should shine like a sheet of glass. It just seems to me somebody tried to reinvent the wheel and broke it badly.


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## bubbamorse (May 4, 2012)

Daniel said:


> I still can't figure out jsut where the idea that a CA finish is applied with no rough surface and no need to sand it smooth. I do know that for years people have been frustrated with trying to achieve a CA finish. This is after years of everyone doing them with little to no problem. SOmewhere along the line the whole CA BLO thing got started and I think people started getting told you can apply CA as a smooth shining finish. I was never told that when I started. It is a mess, a big mess and you then sand and polish it.
> Apply the CA then sand it down. sand it down with Micro Mesh and it should shine like a sheet of glass. It just seems to me somebody tried to reinvent the wheel and broke it badly.



OK, I'm being a little impatient and required this attitude adjustment. Thanks!  I seriously thought I was losing it for a while.....mucho gracias mis amigo!


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## jlord (May 4, 2012)

I use the spray activator not the pump & very little spray of it. My first coat is thin CA then switch to Med. Small amount on folded paper towel (till it's about 1" wide) swipe back & forth a couple times & that's it. You can see that it is covered. Then switch to med Ca. & apply 7 coats of med. 

Then start wet sanding starting with 600 then move to wet sanding mm till 12000. I start sanding with the lathe running (1240 on my jet) then turn off & sand lenghtwise turning the lathe by hand for each grit. After I see no more circular marks I wipe off & go to next higher grit. 

I do not sand between ca coats. After I start with mm it takes about 10 min or less to go thru the pads to 12000. Very quick. Turn up speed (2630) & hit it quickly with a two wheel buffing system & assemble.

Acrylic Pen Buffing System at Penn State Industries


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## Ulises Victoria (May 4, 2012)

Bubba. I am new at this pen making thing, so my advise is far from expert. But I will tell you how I do it and get a super shiny smooth finish in a few minutes.
I just sand up to 600 grit. I then put one of those small plastic bags in which your pen parts come in on my index finger... like a glove. With my lathe at minimum speed, I let a few drops of Medium CA fall on the blank, while spreading it underneath with my plastic covered index finger. I only do 3 max 4 coats, applying accelerator between coats. I let the CA cool for about a couple of minutes, then WET Micro Mesh from 1500 to 12000. I spend more time with the 1500 grit as this is the one that gets rid of rough spots. To be honest, I don't like applying CA to wood. I think that covering a nicely turned piece of wood with a plastic surface kills all the purpose of turning wood, but that's only my opinion. I use CA finish only on certain and very specific situations. Hope this helps. Keep at it if you really want to learn how to do it.


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## jlord (May 4, 2012)

There is also some info in the library section at the top of the page.


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## bubbamorse (May 4, 2012)

jlord said:


> I use the spray activator not the pump & very little spray of it. My first coat is thin CA then switch to Med. Small amount on folded paper towel (till it's about 1" wide) swipe back & forth a couple times & that's it. You can see that it is covered. Then switch to med Ca. & apply 7 coats of med.
> 
> Then start wet sanding starting with 600 then move to wet sanding mm till 12000. I start sanding with the lathe running (1240 on my jet) then turn off & sand lenghtwise turning the lathe by hand for each grit. After I see no more circular marks I wipe off & go to next higher grit.
> 
> ...



I'm almost doing the same thing, except sanding in between coats. OK, I'll forego that step and see if it helps. Thanks!


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## OOPS (May 4, 2012)

Hey Bubba:  How about a contrarian viewpoint here?  Have you considered trying other types of finishes, instead of CA?  I learned how to dip my pens in water-based polyurethane and I really like the results.  To me, this results in a more natural finish, less "plastic" looking.  Some woods prefer an oil-based finish, and after having good, but largely inconsistent results with dipping oil-based poly, I am now trying wipe-on poly.  It's too soon for me to report results with this method, but I know now that I doubt I will ever do much with CA finishes again.  It is something to consider.  Good Luck.


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## tomas (May 4, 2012)

bubbamorse said:


> Daniel said:
> 
> 
> > I still can't figure out jsut where the idea that a CA finish is applied with no rough surface and no need to sand it smooth. I do know that for years people have been frustrated with trying to achieve a CA finish. This is after years of everyone doing them with little to no problem. SOmewhere along the line the whole CA BLO thing got started and I think people started getting told you can apply CA as a smooth shining finish. I was never told that when I started. It is a mess, a big mess and you then sand and polish it.
> ...


 

I sand up thru 600, wipe thoroughly with DNA, apply 6-8 coats of medium CA with accelerator sprayed in between.  If the finish is a little wavey, I smooth it with an extremely light touch with my PenPro carbide tool.  I then apply 6-8 more coats of medium CA and accelerator. Finally, I wet sand with the full range of MM up thru 12000.  The entire process takes me about 30 minutes.  To apply the CA, I use Brawny paper towels and drip the CA on to the towel and apply from the bottom.

Tomas


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## stevo81 (May 4, 2012)

Not too sure if im allowed to post this here, i watched this tutorial before i attempted my frist CA finish. made it very easy to get a great finish. 

Woodwork Forums
good luck with it. 

stevo


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## robutacion (May 4, 2012)

Oh yes, this is an old issue and everyday someone new, will be "trapped" on it, regardless...!

What are the most common errors people starting using the CA finish, do...???

1- Lathe turning too fast (about 1.000rpm is ideal) law of physics say that spinning over a certain speed, the coating material will simple be "spatted" all over, leaving ridges/undulations on the wood, as a result...!

2- Don't put enough CA (layers) on the wood and them sanding the CA off, trying to smooth the surface.  There are ways to apply the CA (either thin or medium and even thick) with minimal ridges, expecting the CA to look like a mirror after the coatings, is just madness.

Half if not more, of the CA thickness you cover the wood with, will be removed by the sanding to get it smooth for the polishing so, forget about sanding in between coats, as you are just sanding out what you just put on so, forget about it. Put enough CA thickness on the wood and you will be finding that your sanding will get it to where you want...!

3- Applying CA is just what the word means "APPLYING" and not "POLISHING or BURNISHING", you apply the CA with an applicator (paper towel, whatever...!) and 1 quick pass is good and 2 (coming back to where you started, with the applicator) is OK if you are fast enough, any more than that, you have a good chance of getting the applicator stuck...!

I'm not a BLO "believer" not for CA finishes I use BLO for a lot of other old type finishes, in my view, one has a lot more chances to achieve a good CA finish, using CA only, as keeping it simple as often the best way...!

Practice is the secret of this finishing process, so much so that, often pen makers with lots of experience, step way from pen making for some time and when they return to it, they find themselves struggling with the CA finished, something that they done hundreds if not thousands of times before so, is no point in stressing too much about it, you will get there...!

Good luck.

Cheers
George


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## Ruby pen turning (May 4, 2012)

Once you get it it is very easy. There is no need to sand or skew between CA coats. I am not saying that I am super CA applier man but it takes me 5 minutes from start to polished. You will and do get ripples that need to be sanded out. That is why we do 10 coats or more, so we don't sand through to the wood. I use medium CA for most everything.

1 fold piece of paper towel. With paper towel over blank, move forward behind the bottle and wipe on blank.

2 same thing.

3 quick spritz of accelerator and wipe with finger to spread evenly and get rid of access accelerator.

4 do this about every 4-5 wipes then a quick accelerator until you have applied the amount that you desire.

5 wet sand lightly with 220. Then wet sand with a used piece of 220

6 sand with 9 micro mesh pads.

7 polish


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## paintspill (May 4, 2012)

try thin ca. thick ca will give you ridges. but that still is not all bad just knock it down with some 400 grit. and keep building. but i think thin ca is a good place to start. thin with accelerator you can lay down 10 coats in 10-15 minutes


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## keithbyrd (May 5, 2012)

I have finally got a system that works for me and the only time I have a problem is when I try to cut corners:
1. Sand to 600 - wipe off dust and blow of with compressor - gotta get the dust our of the grain!
2. Fold 1/2 paper towel till it is about 1" wide
3. Drop 4-5 drops of thin ca on blank and wipe back and forth quickly 2-3 times and put 6-10 coats depending on grain. Use aerosol accellerator - quick spritz - on each coat.
4. Switch to med CA. (probably need a new paper towel)
5. put large drop (1/4" wide) on towel and wipe on blank- I start in the center and wipe both directions usually 2 times - Use aerosol accellerator - quick spritz - on each coat.
6 Put 6-10 coats of med CA.
7. Sand with 400, 600 
8. MM 1500-12000. I do wet sand but I use very little water - just enough to moisten the surface of the blank. Rub each MM until the finish shines. I don't use water on the last 2-3 MM pads - rub lightly!
9. Polish with hut liquid plastic polish
10. Polish with Ren wax.

Last night I was in a hurry and tried to cut corners. I only put 3 coats of thin and 3 coats of med on a piece of Padauk and didn't get the grain filled and made a mess.
Note to self - DON'T CUT CORNERS!

Good luck!


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## Justturnin (May 5, 2012)

Lots of good advise.  Here is what I do.  Please not you will always have ridges.  The goal is to try to smooth them out before te CA cures.  W/ Med CA I will go back and fort 2-3 times to smooth it.  If you put it on too thick and the CA can move it will run to the highest spot in your blank and make a tall ridge on it.

1. Turn the piece down to .10mm below the finished size.
2. Build up with CA, I use 4 coats thin to seal then move to Med to finish the build.  I apply about 3 drops of Med on my napkin and rub it on the blank while spinning at a low speed.
2.5 If you are going to use accelerator use an aerosol not a pump
3. Build back to .1 - .15mm above the finished size.
4. Allow to cure for 24 hours.  My opinion and many others is that CA outgases for a while.  Allowing it to cure will make sure it is fully cured.  Also if you had low spots that the CA is thicker if you polish it right away the CA will continue to cure and, again my opinion, will shrink and give you a low spot in your CA a few days later.
5 - Wet sand w/ 600 to about .05 of the finished size.  When you pull the 600 off rub it against itself.  That way if there is a rogue piece of silica that wants to gouge your work you flatten it as well as the rest so it will not be as aggressive.
6 - Make sure there are no shiny spots left on the piece.  If there are allow it to dry for a few hours and apply a few more coats of CA.  Repeat 4 & 5 after this.
7 - Once the shiny spots are gone w/ the 600 move to the MM through 12k wet.
8 - Your choice on a finishing polish.  I use Huts Ultra High Gloss but many use Auto polish and such.

What ever you do don't give up.  We all have botched many pens working on CA.  If anyone says they haven't they have only done one and it was beginners luck or they need to go back and look at some of their first attempts that were rated successful.


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## underdog (May 5, 2012)

> I am not saying that I am super CA applier man but it takes me 5 minutes from start to polished.


 
Really? Applied, sanded, and polished? Only five minutes, tops?


Sorry, but I'd have to see it to believe it. Video that process with a timer in the background, and I'll believe it.

Now, I'm no expert, and I've had my share of problems with CA finish, so I'm not saying you can't, but I know how long it takes me, (about an hour now) and five minutes sounds like an exaggeration... just sayin... I might believe 10 minutes...

Otherwise it just seems like you're rubbing it in... :frown:

Hell, if I could do it in five minutes, I'd turn 20 pens a day....


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## okiebugg (May 5, 2012)

*Ichabod Crane*



bubbamorse said:


> After much trial and even more error, I've decided that CA Finishes are a Unicorn. You know, that mythical creature that only a rare few have ever seen and an even rarer few have achieved!


 
It's all because you live in Ichabod Crane country. Most of you will be too young to remember this mythical creature. Google!


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## Ruby pen turning (May 6, 2012)

underdog said:


> > I am not saying that I am super CA applier man but it takes me 5 minutes from start to polished.
> 
> 
> Really? Applied, sanded, and polished? Only five minutes, tops?
> ...



haha ... its true. I don't know how I would do the timer but I guess I can set up my tripod and use the video on my camera or use my I phone some how. Next pen I do I will try and capture it on film. :biggrin:
By the way. On the 5 minutes start to finish, I am talking single barrel not a capped pen.


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## okiebugg (May 6, 2012)

Ruby pen turning said:


> underdog said:
> 
> 
> > > I am not saying that I am super CA applier man but it takes me 5 minutes from start to polished.
> ...


 
Hell man, it takes me 10 minutes to get ready.

I have sped up the process with 5 coats and 3000 RPM application though. Questions?


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## beachlover (May 6, 2012)

bubbamorse said:


> After much trial and even more error, I've decided that CA Finishes are a Unicorn. You know, that mythical creature that only a rare few have ever seen and an even rarer few have achieved!



Firstly, I here your frustration/discouragement.

Secondly, I thot there was something in the myth about having to be a virgin to ride a unicorn. :wink:

When I was infected with the addiction I thot I could just plow in and everything would work. Hahaha. Then after a few carefully chosen words to relieve the frustration I came back inside and watched a few u tube videos put up by timberbits. I found them to be enlightening, seeing it as it happens.
I've since read other threads here about how humidity levels can and will affect drying/curing time and now that fall has truly set in here I am finding the enlightenment to be increasing.

Probably most if not all here have suffered as you. If you persevere and overcome you will be among the truly addicted. Don't give up.

Regards


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## underdog (May 6, 2012)

> Hell man, it takes me 10 minutes to get ready.
> 
> I have sped up the process with 5 coats and 3000 RPM application though. Questions?


 

Yeah... howd'ya get the CA off yer face after that RPM? :biggrin:

And yeah, I figure it takes me that long (5 min) just to get a couple coats to cure...

I'll keep working at it. One of these days I'll have figured out all the mistakes and their solutions... 
(The latest was gluing a plastic baggie to the blank... sigh.)


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## robutacion (May 6, 2012)

I can see how some possible's to some, can look impossible to others, and in most cases, all is due to factors that I not mentioned or simply forgotten when talking about issues, such as the CA finish.

There is the CA application with the CA put on an applicator and than rub on the blank and there is the CA application where the CA is dripped from the top of the blank while the applicator follows from underneath...!  

These 2 systems have a lot to do with how much CA you get in your face and how fast you have your lathe on.  Which is best...??? both are equality efficient and are used among pen turners, which one leaves a thicker coat of CA behind if done right....??? the CA dripping on top of the blank, does. (the system I use)...!

And this is where people go wrong without realising what is happening.  What I mean is, if dripping the CA on the rotating blank leaves more CA behind, regardless of the CA thickness, the time in between coats vary tremendously depending of lots of factors, one of the most importance is the ambient temperature of the location where you are doing the job.

We have people talking about CA finishes from all over the Globe and that alone can make the difference in between having success and or failure.  This relates to the relationship in between the CA thickness application and drying time in between coats, and the difference that it can make if the accelerator is used on both cases/extremes.  While most people in the USA and Canada have to endure cold temperatures, the exact temp at the moment of application, makes all the difference in between being in any of those countries and places like Australia and many others.

Why is that, people making pens in Alice Springs and many of the desert areas, including large areas of WA, and also experienced in any state in Australia where temps can reach 40°C++ regularly, do not need accelerator...???  how quick you have to be to void the applicator to stick to the blank, just running it once on the blank...???  Why is that, the same wood, the same CA, same lathe speed, same applicator but done in cold temperatures, makes people wait 10 minutes before they can give it another coat...???? even the accelerator reaction varies considerably in these extreme situations, where some time is require before the next coat even if the accelerator was used...!  Why is that, people in cold places, get faster results by using thin CA instead of medium...???

While temperatures play a crucial role in the CA application success and speed, we can not ignore the humidity levels that play also a very important role on the whole CA coating methodology...!

This explain why the CA coating has develop so many application variations and why what works for some does not work for others, period...!:wink::biggrin:

I believe, all application methods have its merits, you just have to find the one that works for you but and before you can achieve that, you need to understand what the CA finish works, and there is, you need to cover the wood with enough thickness, before you can smooth it out and polish it, loosing at least, half of the CA thickness in the process and that is the only rule that will need to be accomplish, CA thickness...!

So next time you see a CA finish that you like, instead of asking how many coats of CA were applied on, ask where this person is located and what temps he/she experience when doing a CA finish...!

Good luck...!

Cheers
George


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## underdog (May 6, 2012)

I believe you're dead right on the thickness of the CA...

When I first tried this finish, I thought I was done after a couple of coats, and since I didn't have any 600 grit, used 325... and whoop! sanded right through. Gave up and used lacquer instead.... Now I think you need a minimum of 5 coats of medium.

In addition, if you put a thick coat of CA on, then blast it with accelerator, then you'll get spots of white "bloom".... It's best to just let it cure by itself, but sometimes it's just takin' too long, y'know? So you spray it. And then you wind up taking it all back off anyway to get rid of the white spots... Just can't win.


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## leehljp (May 6, 2012)

robutacion said:


> So next time you see a CA finish that you like, instead of asking how many coats of CA were applied on, ask where this person is located and what temps he/she experience when doing a CA finish...!
> 
> Good luck...!
> 
> ...



WELL DONE! WELL SAID! Not just that quote above, but the whole write-up! Most people don't realize what the temp difference can make, and also in my experiences humidity plays a role at certain temps also.


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## leehljp (May 6, 2012)

underdog said:


> I believe you're dead right on the thickness of the CA...
> 
> When I first tried this finish, I thought I was done after a couple of coats, and since I didn't have any 600 grit, used 325... and whoop! sanded right through. Gave up and used lacquer instead.... Now I think you need a minimum of 5 coats of medium.
> 
> In addition, if you put a thick coat of CA on, then blast it with accelerator, then you'll get spots of white "bloom".... It's best to just let it cure by itself, but sometimes it's just takin' too long, y'know? So you spray it. And then you wind up taking it all back off anyway to get rid of the white spots... Just can't win.



LOL! At least you have gained experince, knowledge and wisdom! :biggrin:

I finally got my part of my shop up and running a few weeks ago - been working on it since the move from Japan 16 months ago. Been 2 years since I made a pen. For my first ones, I am making 8 for graduation now. Last week, in a hurry, I used some accelerator. No problem worked beautiful. Finish looked like liquid glass, pure smooth. Next morning there was that white stuff between the layer of wood and the CA! ARGH!


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## okiebugg (May 6, 2012)

*Face?*



> Hell man, it takes me 10 minutes to get ready.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
I use Loctite CA. Its consistency is somewhere between thin and medium CA. Costs a little more, but to me, worth it.

CA bottle tip on the blank while spinning, with paper towel (brand doesn't matter) under blank (touching)
lathe running at about 3000 RPM.
apply CA to blank while spreading with paper towel....Not slow, not fast, just do it.
When I get to the end of the blank, I take the paper towel (not the CA) back against the blank to the starting end in a smoothing motion. I do this on every coat.
Three coats about 10 to 15 seconds apart.
Accelerate after the 3rd coat.
2 or 3 more coats (depending on my mood and how much CA I have) smoothing again at the end of each coat.
Accelerator again.

Wait 1 minute minimum


The CA is still soft, so no heavy pressure on the blank. I can usually start wet sanding with 600 at this point as long as I remember that the CA is still soft.

If you do use too much pressure,  sand lightly and start over with the CA

With the application and smoothing, I seldom have to start at a higher grit than 600, but occasionally 320-400-600=MM to 4000. Have a day.

If I left anything out, PM me or use your imagination.


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## fernhills (May 7, 2012)

The last few pens i made, i used WTF from General Finishes. It worked out well, no sticky mess to deal with. Dries real quick, it was a pleasure to use. I do not know how long it will last, but we shall see.   Carl


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## joefrog (May 7, 2012)

I learned what I do from youtube.  I haven't tried applying the CA while the lathe is running -- but I admit I do get some spots that need to be filled on occasion, especially with large-pored woods (oak, laminated pieces, etc).

Here's the guy that taught me, and yes, it takes less than five minutes:

Pen Turning: Super Glue Finish - YouTube


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## joefrog (May 7, 2012)

joefrog said:


> I learned what I do from youtube.  I haven't tried applying the CA while the lathe is running -- but I admit I do get some spots that need to be filled on occasion, especially with large-pored woods (oak, laminated pieces, etc).
> 
> Here's the guy that taught me, and yes, it takes less than five minutes:
> 
> Pen Turning: Super Glue Finish - YouTube



And oh yes, on occasion, the paper towel DOES stick and I have to sand down and start all over.  But it's few & far between!


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## Kaspar (Jun 9, 2012)

I have gotten excellent results from this stuff on my last two pens.  Now I already knew how to do a CA finish (I used triple distilled Thin) and so maybe that helps, but this took twenty minutes. 

I'm also thinking of trying this.  But the durability of CA is proven to me and I'd have some questions about that stuff that could only be answered after years of seeing how it does.  Sure looks easy to put on though.


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