# mandrel choice



## HeatherA (Jan 15, 2006)

Hello, 
I bent my berea precision mandrel and was wondering if the High precision set is that much better.  I can get just the shaft for the one that I have which is the cheaper way to go but I also do not mind getting the other one if  it is better. Also, how do the berea mandrels compare to the craft supply ones.  I was just about to get the adjustable one from AS when they were on sale but I guess he ran out because it was removed from the sale page before the time was out.

Thanks,
Heather


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## Borg_B_Borg (Jan 15, 2006)

I have not had luck with the adjustable one I bought from Woodcraft several years ago.  It has terrible runout.  I can't tell you where BB of AS gets his, but I have yet to read good feedback from anyone on any so-called universal-type adjustable mandrel.

As for the Berea "high precision" mandrel, I vaguely recall mine had low runout (&lt;0.002" or so) when it was new, whereas the cheaper Berea "precision" mandrel had slightly higher runout (0.003" or 0.004" so).    If you want very low runout, use a collet chuck system, which costs a lot more, but gives much less aggravation in the long run, and its length is adjustable!

Berea B is more rigid than other mandrels by virtue of it being thicker and supposedly hardened.  I can't tell whether Berea's A or other mandrels are similarly hardenend or not, but you can use a Berea B only with certain Berea kits that are made for it.

Steve


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## wayneis (Jan 15, 2006)

I have both styles of mandrels from Berea and for my money I would say yes they are better, they have been hardened I'm told.  I use them now with a Beall collet chuck and have very good luck and results.  I'm sure that some others with come on and say that there is no difference but this has been my experence and I'm sticking to it.

Wayne


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## Rudy Vey (Jan 15, 2006)

In my opinion, the Berea mandrels, A and B, held with a Beall collet chuck is the best way to go. I have had others, including the Woodcraft adjustable mandrel  (which is not good and cannot be recommended due to too much runout, and I also think that the MT on mine was not ok) but nothing comes near. Before I bought my Beall, I used the Berea drill driver mandrel holder, a very good solution to hold a mandrel.


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## HeatherA (Jan 17, 2006)

Thanks for all the responses.  My other question is what exactely IS a drill driver.  It looks just like the other kind which just fits into the morse taper.  Also, if you use a collet chuck, what do you buy for the mandrel part.

Thanks again,
Heather


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## Borg_B_Borg (Jan 17, 2006)

You must be referring to Berea's "Drill Driver Mounting System", also known as their "high precision" system.  It's just a morse taper with a slot cut partially through the axis.  To use it, a mandrel(that long, thin steel rod) is inserted into the hole of the morse taper(the thing that looks like a popsicle) and the morse taper is then inserted into the spindle hole in the headstock of your lathe.  Due to the tapered profile of a morse taper, the slot in the morse taper is compressed and holds the mandrel tightly as the morse taper is pushed deeper into the headstock.  

This compares with a regular morse taper mandrel system, where the mandrel rod is threaded into the morse taper by machine threads, whereas in the "drill driver" system, there are no threads because compressive force grips the mandrel rod in the drill driver system.

If you opt for the much more expensive collet chuck option, in addition to a collet chuck and a collet, you will also need to buy a mandrel rod.  Remember that long, thin rod mentioned above?  Oh, almost forgot, you'll need a nut to thread on tailstock side of the mandrel also!  If you buy just a rod, the chances are the nut will need to be purchased separately.

Steve




> _Originally posted by HeatherA_
> <br />Thanks for all the responses.  My other question is what exactely IS a drill driver.  It looks just like the other kind which just fits into the morse taper.  Also, if you use a collet chuck, what do you buy for the mandrel part.
> 
> Thanks again,
> Heather


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## HeatherA (Jan 17, 2006)

Thanks Steve, I got it now.

Heather


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## wood-of-1kind (Jan 17, 2006)

Lee Valley has a very nice adjustable mandrel, I've been using it for a year now. It is not cheap and is imported from Britain. Works very well for me and don't mind recommend it.

-Peter-


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## txcwboy (Aug 3, 2006)

I am having chatter issues. I have replaced my mantel and not impressed with the WC mandrel. I was in the area and they were close so I bought it. I see some are using a collect system. So the collect holds the mandrel rod ? Will a collect system fit my Carbatec ? What would one expect to pay for a collect setup ? I see that some are $$$ but is there any others that would work as good but cheaper ?

thank you

Dave


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## Kaspar (Aug 3, 2006)

I have no trouble with the universal mandrel.  But then I do one barrel at a time too, keeping it very short.  If there bushings for every pen with tube diameters 8mm or bigger, I'd use the Berea B mandrel on everything.  Who da thunk 1mm would make such a difference in stability.


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## Rudy Vey (Aug 3, 2006)

> _Originally posted by txcwboy_
> <br />I am having chatter issues. I have replaced my mantel and not impressed with the WC mandrel. I was in the area and they were close so I bought it. I see some are using a collect system. So the collect holds the mandrel rod ? Will a collect system fit my Carbatec ? What would one expect to pay for a collect setup ? I see that some are $$$ but is there any others that would work as good but cheaper ?
> 
> thank you
> ...



I assume you mean a "collet" chuck system, like the Beall Collet Chuck.
It is, in my, as well as a lot of other penturners, opinion the most precise way of holding a mandrel. The next best thing would be the Berea Drill Drivers, available for both the "A" (7mm) and "B" (8 mm) mandrels. My experience with an adjustable mandrel, like the one from Woodcraft, and other companies is not very good, and so have others reported here.

There is also another collect chuck out there, the Axminster, but the sizes are much more limited than the Beall - I recommend to go with the Beall.


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## Rudy Vey (Aug 3, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Kaspar_
> <br />I have no trouble with the universal mandrel.  But then I do one barrel at a time too, keeping it very short.  If there bushings for every pen with tube diameters 8mm or bigger, I'd use the Berea B mandrel on everything.  Who da thunk 1mm would make such a difference in stability.



Well,you are right, but one should not look at the increase of the diameter, but the cross-section increase - it is quite tremendous!!
The increase in diameter is only about 15%, but in cross-section it is 30%. I remember that came up once before and Don Ward, who is a math teacher, had pointed this out as well.


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## wdcav1952 (Aug 3, 2006)

First, I have tried several different ways to turn, and the Beall Collet chuck is the most accurate method I have used.  Check with member TangBoy5000 at this link for the collet chuck. http://www.woodchipshome.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=WC&Product_Code=CCBEALL&Category_Code=CHU

If you use only the "A" mandrel, buy the 1/4" collet.  If you use the "B" mandrel, you will need the 5/16" collet as well.

The mandrels I use are the Berea  mandrels from their High Precision set.  They cost $5 each, and by golly the nut comes with the mandrel at no extra charge.  I get mine from Beartoothwoods.com at this link http://beartoothwoods.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=35_42&products_id=115

Remember that you need a mandrel with no threads on the headstock end.

More expensive than other options, yes.  No more out of round pens, priceless. []  (Sorry, I don't know how to do hyper-links. [])


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## DocStram (Aug 3, 2006)

And, too add my two cents .... when thinking about collet chucks there is a very strong competitor sneaking up on the Bealls' dynasty.  Take a look at WC's Turner's Collet Chuck.  Eight collets (count 'em 8!) and the chuck for $79.99.  That's half the price of Bealls (with only 5 collets). I just bought one and am very impressed by its quality.


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## txcwboy (Aug 3, 2006)

I have a no.1 morse taper though. Will the Beall fit on my Carbetech ok ? So  need chuck, 2 collets and 2 mandrel rods and I am set ? What about live centers no.1 taper also? The Beall is cheaper than I saw online.

Dave


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## txcwboy (Aug 3, 2006)

I think that my Carba Tec is 3/4 16 tpi ?  Wood Chips sells a 8 tpi.

Dave


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## Randy_ (Aug 3, 2006)

It seems to me that no one has addressed the root issue, here??  Heather,  if you are using the proper turning techniques, you should not bend a mandrel, even a cheap one. And conversely, if your technique is not correct, you will probably bend even the best mandrels.  

Do you have any idea how you bent the mandrel?  In fact, how exactly, did you determine that it is bent?  A mandrel can appear to be bent if the arbor is not accurately seated in the spindle.  A little dirt in the spindle taper or a small burr somewhere could cause the arbor to seat improperly.  We need to get first things first......simply buying a new mandrel may not solve the problem.


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## Rudy Vey (Aug 4, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Randy__
> <br />It seems to me that no one has addressed the root issue, here??  Heather,  if you are using the proper turning techniques, you should not bend a mandrel, even a cheap one. And conversely, if your technique is not correct, you will probably bend even the best mandrels.
> 
> Do you have any idea how you bent the mandrel?  In fact, how exactly, did you determine that it is bent?  A mandrel can appear to be bent if the arbor is not accurately seated in the spindle.  A little dirt in the spindle taper or a small burr somewhere could cause the arbor to seat improperly.  We need to get first things first......simply buying a new mandrel may not solve the problem.



Randy, I think the problem Heather was having was addressed.
The point is that someone hijacked (in August) an old topic from January and totally re-directs it into something different. This is a problem I see always on these boards, and it happens all the time.


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## wdcav1952 (Aug 4, 2006)

Dave,

I ran the point mission on that question.  I have a MT1 CarbaTec.  Yes, it is 3/4 x 16 tpi.  Check with Charles at WoodChips, and he will fix you up with the right chuck.  Just make sure ALL the cosmoline or whatever is thoroughly cleaned off the threads and it will work like a dream.



> _Originally posted by txcwboy_
> <br />I think that my Carba Tec is 3/4 16 tpi ?  Wood Chips sells a 8 tpi.
> 
> Dave


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## txcwboy (Aug 4, 2006)

HiJacked is to take over with force. Didnt mean to step on anyones toes for resurrecting a dormant article on the SAME SUBJECT. Call the internet police !! 

Thanks Will

Dave


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## cozee (Aug 4, 2006)

> Didnt mean to step on anyones toes for resurrecting a dormant article on the SAME SUBJECT.



Sometimes one is put into the position of when trying to help out, no matter what they do some feel it is the wrong thing. I personally have asked questions that were met with the "search the site or archives. This has been asked before and you'll find your answers there" reply. Kinda the damned if ya do and damned if ya don't thing!! []


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## kenwc (Aug 4, 2006)

What size Beall chuck would be best to use for the 1/4 Collet for pen turning?


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## txcwboy (Aug 4, 2006)

Hey Kenwc, are you trying to highjack MY highjacked topic ? []


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## DocStram (Aug 4, 2006)

And here I was driving home this afternoon ... and thinking to myself ... man, there hasn't been a good flare-up at IAP since at least a couple of months ago (I think it had to do with Darricks snakewood blanks) .....  and here we go!


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## Rudy Vey (Aug 4, 2006)

> _Originally posted by kenwc_
> <br />What size Beall chuck would be best to use for the 1/4 Collet for pen turning?



That would be the "Beall" chuck, there is only one, but you must select the one that fits your lathe thread. The collet, i.e. inserts, for the Beall chuck come in different diameters for clamping down on the work to be held. Please, note that the clamping range is very limited. The collets that fit the Beall chuck are so-called ER-32 spring collets, and they come in 1/32" steps. The complete holding range for the ER-32 collets is 0.08" to 0.787".
For example the 1/4â€ collet has a range of 0.236 - 0.275".

The whole range looks like this:
        Size 	Range
 	3/32â€ 	0.08 - 0.12"
 	1/8â€ 	0.12 - 0.16"
 	3/16â€ 	0.16 - 0.20"
 	7/32â€ 	0.20 - 0.236"
 	1/4â€ 	0.236 - 0.275"
 	5/16â€ 	0.275 - 0.316"
	11/32â€ 	0.316 - 0.354"
 	3/8â€ 	0.354 - 0.393"
 	13/32â€ 	0.393 - 0.433"
 	7/16â€ 	0.433 - 0.472"
 	1/2â€ 	0.472 - 0.511"
 	17/32â€ 	0.511 - 0.551"
 	9/16â€ 	0.551 - 0.590"
 	5/8â€ 	0.590 - 0.629"
	21/32â€ 	0.629 - 0.669"
 	11/16â€ 	0.669 - 0.708"
 	23/32â€ 	0.708 - 0.748"
 	3/4â€ 	0.748 - 0.787"


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## Rudy Vey (Aug 4, 2006)

> _Originally posted by txcwboy_
> <br />HiJacked is to take over with force. Didnt mean to step on anyones toes for resurrecting a dormant article on the SAME SUBJECT. Call the internet police !!
> 
> Thanks Will
> ...


You didn't step on anyones toes, it is common practise on these boards to call it "hi-jacking" if a thread is resurrected and then pushed/deviated, or what ever it will be called, towards something different. It is sometimes much better to create a new topic, though. Makes it clearer, too, for most of us.


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## Dario (Aug 4, 2006)

I final turn and finish my pens now WITHOUT a mandrel []...I just turn them between centers.  I found it much more accurate.

Got the style from a fellow IAP member a few months ago who stopped visiting.

Ofcourse I still do the rough turning with a mandrel. []


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## Rudy Vey (Aug 4, 2006)

> _Originally posted by DocStram_
> <br />And here I was driving home this afternoon ... and thinking to myself ... man, there hasn't been a good flare-up at IAP since at least a couple of months ago (I think it had to do with Darricks snakewood blanks) .....  and here we go!



Believe me, I am not one of those who participates in the"flare-ups" you mentioned here. I am always trying to help others here and share my knowledge on topics I think I know a bit about or have experience with.
Remarks like in some of the replys above in this thread, have led to "flare-ups" in the past, and most of them have not been positive for our IAP. We have lost good people through this, and I miss some of the more experienced and better pen turners lately here, too, like DCBluesman and Wayne Swindlehurst. Both have not much posted in the last weeks. 
Well, I could also be quiet and go/stay away, too....


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## Kaspar (Aug 4, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Rudy Vey_
> <br />
> 
> 
> ...



My last sentence was rhetorical, and I understand the math perfectly.  It's a matter of "interior volume."  When I get my metal lathe later this year, I am going to make bushings for kits 8mm and above for use on the Berea B mandrel.


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## its_virgil (Aug 4, 2006)

Hey Dario,
What did you do to make him "stop visiting"[][}][]

Tell us more about this between center finishing. Sounds intriguing.

Do a good turn daily!
Don


> _Originally posted by Dario_
> <br />
> Got the style from a fellow IAP member a few months ago who stopped visiting.
> []


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## KenV (Aug 5, 2006)

Taig,Klein, Carb-Tech, and Royobi all have a 3/4 by 16 NF thread on the headstock.  Beal just happens to fit that thread.  The WC Turners Chuck is #2 MT only on the on line catalog.  

Little tool shop is a good source for a set of ER 32 collets at a nominal price; but you should get just the bare beall chuck if you are going to get the set.  

While shopping, look for a 3/4 by 16 tap - drill a block with a 11/16 bit and tap it for direct fit on the headstock.  Makes for easy friction mandrels with maple or similar wood blocks.


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## Randy_ (Aug 5, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Kaspar_
> <br />.....When I get my metal lathe later this year, I am going to make bushings for kits 8mm and above for use on the Berea B mandrel.



Kaspar:  Have you considered simply drilling out your 7 mm bushings on your wood lathe to fit the "B" mandrel??


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## Dario (Aug 5, 2006)

> _Originally posted by its_virgil_
> <br />Tell us more about this between center finishing. Sounds intriguing.



Don,

It is very simple really.  Mount a dead center at the head stock and a live center at the tail stock.  Turn between centers with the bushings still on the barrel.  

That is it!!!

I saw it on the pics of the fellow member and I though  that should work...no deflection no getting out of round....SIMPLE, CHEAP, and EASY.  What else can I say?


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## bonefish (Aug 5, 2006)

Randy:

All the bushings I have are very hard. I don't think a drill 
bit will cut them. 

Another problem--Using a drill bit to drill something that is supposed to be a precision fit is the most un-precise way of doing it.

A reamer would work, but then, there is the problom of the hardened steel bushing.

Bonefish


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## Kaspar (Aug 5, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Randy__
> <br />
> 
> 
> ...



How does one go about doing that?  Isn't it about impossible to drill a hole larger with the kind of accuracy we'd want?  Or is there some special bit one could use?  I'd be happy to burn an old bushing set trying.


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## wdcav1952 (Aug 5, 2006)

Kaspar,

I have heard that people with a metal lathe can do this with accuracy.  I think it would be folly to try to drill out bushings without specialized equipment and knowledge.

Perhaps Scubaman will chime in on the subject.  I think I recall that Rich has done this before.


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## DocStram (Aug 5, 2006)

Rudy ..... ohhh man, I'm sorry.  I was just kidding about the flare up. None of us took any of the comments as offensive.  I was just trying to be funny.


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## Randy_ (Aug 7, 2006)

> _Originally posted by bonefish_
> <br />Randy:
> 
> All the bushings I have are very hard. I don't think a drill
> bit will cut them.....A reamer would work, but then, there is the problom of the hardened steel bushing.



I don't know if any or all pen bushings are hardened.  With so many posts about dust from sanded bushings corrupting the color of pen blanks, I would the guess the bushings are not hardened; but that might be an interesting question to ask the manufacturers?? 




> _Originally posted by bonefish_
> <br />.....
> Another problem--Using a drill bit to drill something that is supposed to be a precision fit is the most un-precise way of doing it.



Maybe, maybe not??  I recall some old posts by folks who have done this very thing.  I don't know the details of how the job was accomplished nor the accuracy of  the end result.  Maybe they were just lucky or maybe they had very good equipment??  Considering that a set of bushings is only 5 or 6 bucks, it would be a cheap experiment to find out if you could successfully accomplish the task.


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## Randy_ (Aug 7, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Kaspar_
> <br />How does one go about doing that?  Isn't it about impossible to drill a hole larger with the kind of accuracy we'd want?  Or is there some special bit one could use?  I'd be happy to burn an old bushing set trying.



I can think of a number of ways that this might be accomplished.  It would depend upon what kind of equipment you have available and the amount time you are willing to invest.  If you were going to try this on a lathe, you would need a a good scroll chuck or a collet chuck and a Jacobs chuck.  If you were going to use a drill press, you would need a good vise.....either one like Paul Huffman sells or a standard machinists vise.  I'm not sure that you couldn't chuck the bushings in an electric drill and open up the hole with some sandpaper wrapped around the "chuck end" of an appropriately sized drill bit; but that might take a while. Or as suggested earlier. you could try to ream them our with a properly sized reamer if you can find one.


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## txcwboy (Aug 7, 2006)

You dont want your bushings harden too much . If they were harder than your tool they would ruin the edge of the tool when touched against it.

Dave


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## bonefish (Aug 7, 2006)

I made some bushings one time, to fit the 7 m/m mandrel.

I drilled a hole in the steel rod, I don't remember the size, for a 7 m/m tube to go through. I then soldered the tube inside the roughed out bushing.

Next, I mounted the bushing between centers, much the same way Dario described turning the pen body between centers.

Turning between centers insures that the tube and hole are in the exact center of the bushing. 

I then turned the outside of the bushing to the correct size. It works, if you want to go to the trouble. You could also do the same thing with an 8 m/m rod.

Bonefish


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