# Product Reference Rules



## jeff (Nov 4, 2011)

Please read my entire post before you vote or reply.

As part of the classifieds overhaul, the Product Reference Rules were put in place to help keep advertising out of the open forums. Some vendors were perceived as taking more than reasonable opportunity to push their products in general discussions. 

Vendors themselves also motivated the development of these rules because they feel entitled to "a level playing field." When money is at stake, people don't like subjective rules. We had many, many situations where one vendor would complain because they perceived that we were "easier on the other guy" than on them. That's the nature of subjective rules, or the attempt to enforce things like "reasonable" and "tasteful". Sometimes it goes one way, sometimes it goes another. Our moderators are human beings. The result: hard and fast rules.

I've spoken to a number of members and vendors recently, and I am wondering if we've actually gone too far with these rules, or if vendors are simply being overcautious for fear of violating rules they don't fully understand. Some vendors have simply stopped posting anything, and I get too many PMs asking "can I post this?"

Personally, I miss some of the discussions centered around products. I don't miss the pile-on shouting matches between vendors, distributors, and members aligned behind them, and I don't miss thread which turn into billboards for particular products and vendors.

How about you? Do you like the new, "quieter" forum?
If you sell stuff here, what do you think the rules mean?

I'm looking for thoughtful discussion and opinion on this subject. 
Please don't argue with each other,  and please let me answer questions about interpreting the rules.

THANKS!!


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## steeler fan1 (Nov 4, 2011)

Jeff,

Very good question. I have noticed things are much quieter since the new rules. I miss some of the open discussions we used to have about different products. At the same time I didn't like the piling on that would occur. Now it appears people are hesitant or afraid to express opinions, ie blank by xxx, kit from yyy, etc. 

I see pros and cons, but that is the nature of opinions. Its too bad we can't just all get along. Agree to disagree as it were. We should be able to voice an opinion without feeling the wrath of those who disagree. 

I guess I'm saying act and reply in a civil manor. Sorry for the rambling and good luck with this project. 

Thanks for opening this up, a good topic for tweeking.

Carl


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## Justturnin (Nov 4, 2011)

I didnt vote because I was not here long enough before the rules so I don't know if things are better or worse. 

That said the one thing I might like changed would be the fact that someone cannot acknowledge the fact they sell something that someone is looking for. I have a post out now asking about a Flash Drive and 1 other person posted interest in buying that as well. What if someone on the site sells them? Are they are locked down and can't tell us? If so now I am left w/out what I am looking to buy and they miss a sell. I do feel it should remain tasteful like you stress but I think thay should be able to say something along the lines of 'I sell those on my site and have 4 options/finishes to choose from' amd let that be it.

That'sjust my thoughts. Jeff thanks again for giving us a voice.


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## OKLAHOMAN (Nov 4, 2011)

As a vendor I sometimes feel that I'm walking on egg shells, trying not to offend or break rules. I have had in the last few weeks hesitated posting in certain threads even though I'm the only importer of an Item for fear of having other vendors hit the golden triangle and members thinking I'm advertising. For example member x asks which size watzit will fit my thing-a-ma-jig and I answer well the #123 Brand w will fit and make your thing-a-ma-jig work better than the watzit that came with it.
I do this and then get an email from a member complaining that I am pushing my product, so for that reason, I let others suggest what will work even though at times they (yes it happen) will tell the OP that they can get the watzit from vendors that don't have it, giving that impression to all members that the mentioned vendor has this item. Again I do not correct the poster where to get it as that would be again advertising in some of the members and mods view with the new rules.
Frankly as a whole the new advertising format has cleaned up the forum and will never please all but if I really want to be honest it has made a level playing field for all. Will some stretch the rules, sure but the job of the mods is to make sure that they are kept by all so they have to be hard and fast not open to interpretation.


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## Texatdurango (Nov 4, 2011)

jeff said:


> ...
> How about you? Do you like the new, "quieter" forum?...


 
I think things are fine, members making pens and discussing ideas and sharing thoughts.  I like visiting the forums and seeing and reading about penmaking without seeing a few vendors names/ads in every third post even when they weren't relevant to the threads.

As for the vendors who quit selling..... it's their loss not ours.


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## jeff (Nov 4, 2011)

Justturnin said:


> I didnt vote because I was not here long enough before the rules so I don't know if things are better or worse.
> 
> That said the one thing I might like changed would be the fact that someone cannot acknowledge the fact they sell something that someone is looking for. I have a post out now asking about a Flash Drive and 1 other person posted interest in buying that as well. What if someone on the site sells them? Are they are locked down and can't tell us? If so now I am left w/out what I am looking to buy and they miss a sell. I do feel it should remain tasteful like you stress but I think thay should be able to say something along the lines of 'I sell those on my site and have 4 options/finishes to choose from' amd let that be it.
> 
> That'sjust my thoughts. Jeff thanks again for giving us a voice.



That's an excellent point. That annoys me too. The rules require that previous customers or someone who knows the answer make the post. For little known things, we lose out.

HOWEVER, there were vendors who would troll the forum looking to post in threads where something they sell is being discussed. If it's a popular thing, then competing vendors will be chiming in with "I sell it too, and I have it for a nickel less."  THAT annoys me even more. We seem to have been at a point where selling a dollar's worth of stuff overruled any sense of restraint or good taste. 

So the question is, how to encourage the former and discourage the latter.

THANKS for your thoughts!


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## Timebandit (Nov 4, 2011)

jeff said:


> Justturnin said:
> 
> 
> > I didnt vote because I was not here long enough before the rules so I don't know if things are better or worse.
> ...



Jeff, the former can be fixed by the person that does have said items sending a PM to the member looking for the item. As in the example above. If someone on here sold flash drives, and decided not to PM the person and let them know they had flash drives, then thats the vendors fault. Posting in a thread is not the only way to let a potential buyer know that you have a product they seek. I think its a shame if a vendor decides not to make a sale just because they cant post it in the forum for all the other members to see. For this to work, you, Jeff, dont have to do anything. You already have the rules set up for this to work. For the latter, well again do nothing, you have already fixed the problem.


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## nativewooder (Nov 4, 2011)

I am not a vendor, but if I have a question about a type of product, say fountain pen hardware, I would expect to be able to receive PMs from vendors replying to my question.  Is this allowed?  If not, I think the rules are too tight.


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## NewLondon88 (Nov 4, 2011)

there's a lot of things I don't miss, but I see a lot of questions that
can't be answered by people who have any sort of business relationship
with a vendor. That means that sometimes the people who are qualified
to answer questions aren't allowed to do so. 
If I sell widgets to Joe's Country Store and Joe also sells thingamabobs, 
and someone has a question about where to get a thingamabob, I can't
tell them because I sell widgets to Joe. And Joe certainly can't answer
because .. well because. This often leaves the answering to people with
less experience with thingamabobs. (not that vendors have all the
answers, either .. but they don't usually become vendors by knowing
nothing..)
I don't envy you guys.. constantly greasing the squeaky wheel. Left to
me, I'd probably have decided long ago to throw out the wheel and 
learned to ride a trike.


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## DozerMite (Nov 4, 2011)

Doesn't really matter at this point. What has been done... has been done. Now you want to change the rules yet again and increase the confusion. Why not restrict it to only posting a pic of your pen, bowl, or whatever and no listing what was used, proceedure, and no comments?
This was predicted...


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## Fibonacci (Nov 4, 2011)

I miss some of those converstations as well.

I see it as a trade off.  Before the change, there were a couple of vendors who would enter almost any conversation about the quality/durability of a product and completely derail it by going off on how great their stuff was.  That was super annoying to me, and I refuse to purchase supplies from them due to it, even though their prices are competative.

The flip side is that in many cases here, the vendors are people who made pens for a long time and started selling supplies later.  Because of that, they tend to be VERY knowledgeable and helpful.  Under the new rules, I don't see many of them responding to questions the way they used to.  In my opinion, this has hurt the forum as a place to come and learn.

The ideal case would be one where vendors are free to comment and give information, but do not use that ability to pimp thier wares at every turn.  People being what they are, that is highly difficult to moderate.  Some people will take advantage of any percieved loophole, no matter what.

Given the choice between the current rule and the old rule, I would prefer the old one where I can choose to ignore those people who are obnoxious and make informed decisions about them as people.

That said, this is your forum to do with as you see fit, and even under the new rules, it is the still the best source for information and fellowship that I am aware of.  I also really like the new system in the classifieds.


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## OKLAHOMAN (Nov 4, 2011)

Your right and I did send a PM both to the OP and the poster that gave wrong info, but did not feel right as per the rules to let all the other readers of that thread know the product was not avalible at the vendor mentioned.



nativewooder said:


> I am not a vendor, but if I have a question about a type of product, say fountain pen hardware, I would expect to be able to receive PMs from vendors replying to my question. Is this allowed? If not, I think the rules are too tight.


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## Justturnin (Nov 4, 2011)

jeff said:


> That's an excellent point. That annoys me too. The rules require that previous customers or someone who knows the answer make the post. For little known things, we lose out.
> 
> HOWEVER, there were vendors who would troll the forum looking to post in threads where something they sell is being discussed. If it's a popular thing, then competing vendors will be chiming in with "I sell it too, and I have it for a nickel less." THAT annoys me even more. We seem to have been at a point where selling a dollar's worth of stuff overruled any sense of restraint or good taste.
> 
> ...


 

I think a Vendor should only be allowed to make this type of post if the OP requested that info, not if someone posts later on 'wow great kit where did you get it?' a Vendor should not be allowed to respond to that.  The OP is the only relevent post and should not be threadjack by others looking to buy that item.  If they want it, do like I see many other do, start a new thread asking where to get it.


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## Timebandit (Nov 4, 2011)

Justturnin said:


> jeff said:
> 
> 
> > That's an excellent point. That annoys me too. The rules require that previous customers or someone who knows the answer make the post. For little known things, we lose out.
> ...



Or PM the OP and ask them where they got the item.


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## Justturnin (Nov 4, 2011)

I agree with Roy on Post #4.  Many times a Vendor is going to have the most experience in a matter.  If They know how to fix something and make a post telling them how to fix it, even if the fix requires a part they happen sell, they should be able to post.  If at no point do they say 'now click the link in my signiture and buy one' it should be fine.  It's a loss to the forum to restict there experience and knowledge due to the fact they sell something.

Just $.02 more for you.....


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## Justturnin (Nov 4, 2011)

Or PM the OP and ask them where they got the item.[/quote]

Misread this.  Yes they could PM the OP, you are correct, and that would make a whole lot more sense.


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## Curly (Nov 4, 2011)

*Shilling....the other currency.*

 My case is a bit different than the of the majority on the forum and it has to do with the shilling rules. 

Because I live with a supplier to a couple vendors (one that posts here and one that doesn't) with two more soon to be selling different products, I have to be extremely careful on what I say or show. If I show or mention anything made of a material or product any of these five I will be in hot water for being perceived as shilling for them and be banned or if lucky just having my post/thread deleted. 

I fully understand the difficulty in keeping the forum operating smoothly, but I do feel somewhat muzzled. Whatever the rules are I do my utmost to follow them.

Perhaps a SOYP section in the market area would let vendors and "associates" show off their work with some freedom.


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## doddman70 (Nov 4, 2011)

Fibonacci said:


> Given the choice between the current rule and the old rule, I would prefer the old one where I can choose to ignore those people who are obnoxious and make informed decisions about them as people.
> .



That pretty well sums up how i feel also. I never saw any vender post anything that i felt was in bad taste as far as trying to push their product, granted i could have missed a thread or 2 but from what i have seen i never had any issues with them.


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## penmaker56 (Nov 4, 2011)

As a vendor, basically I've stopped, ads do not pay for themselves; posts, because I sell a product that is being discussed, no one knows that I sell it, and if I answer, it might be construed as promotional.


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## jeff (Nov 4, 2011)

DozerMite said:


> Doesn't really matter at this point. What has been done... has been done. Now you want to change the rules yet again and increase the confusion. Why not restrict it to only posting a pic of your pen, bowl, or whatever and no listing what was used, proceedure, and no comments?
> This was predicted...



Maybe I want to change the rules and decrease the confusion. :biggrin:

Sorry, but I make adjustments based on data I collect. Maybe it's because of my profession, but improvement by definition requires change.


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## Don Wade (Nov 4, 2011)

Too many rules in the world already.


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## jasontg99 (Nov 4, 2011)

DozerMite said:


> Why not restrict it to only posting a pic of your pen, bowl, or whatever and no listing what was used, proceedure, and no comments?


 
Yeah, that would be......BORING. People come here to learn. If it were not for this site I would have no idea about the multitude of vendors. I would have never figured out I can use CA or plexiglass melted in acetone as a finish. I would never have learned about turning between centers. Why would people ever come back to a site you just described???


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## workinforwood (Nov 4, 2011)

NewLondon88 said:


> there's a lot of things I don't miss, but I see a lot of questions that
> can't be answered by people who have any sort of business relationship
> with a vendor. That means that sometimes the people who are qualified
> to answer questions aren't allowed to do so.
> ...



yep. There's a small level of fear that you are doing something wrong, and not sure what is right and walking on egg shells for sure.  What is being learned here is that the more rules you make, the more rules and amendments you have to make. It starts like a constitution and ends up being the library of congress and then even the rule makers don't know the rules anymore. :smile-big:


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## johnnycnc (Nov 4, 2011)

jeff said:


> Please read my entire post before you vote or reply.
> 
> >snip<
> 
> ...



I'm sorry Jeff, but I'm turned off by it all.


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## ed4copies (Nov 4, 2011)

Quoting Jeff:

_Sorry, but I make adjustments based on data I collect. Maybe it's  because of my profession, but improvement by definition requires change. _

Any time you CHANGE, there will be a general resistance.  After a period of time, you have to make a judgement whether the change is better or worse.  Seems perfectly reasonable to do so---whether now is that time, or not could be debated.  

In any event, the forum has reacted to each method and it is perfectly reasonable to attempt to find the right "mix".  Not every experiment is a "success", but every experiment should provide more DATA for analysis.

Thanks Jeff, for taking the time to TRY to achieve a better forum.  Good luck!!


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## rej19 (Nov 4, 2011)

First I have never posted about issues like this. After trying to read some of the rules about posting ads etc I can see why some may say it's not worth the effort. Of course it is not my source of income so my view is different from those who rely on sales from this site as part of their livelyhood. If something becomes so watered down with rules and regulations it tends to be to restrictive and people give up and move on. I believe that is the case here. I realize there are occasional disputes and upset people due to some vendors sprinkling in their product advertising during postings. But I think creating rules that try to stop every possible violation of this type is like throwing out the baby with the bath water. I have no problem ignoring something I don't want to read.


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## dogcatcher (Nov 4, 2011)

I sell non pen making equipment on another site, with the rules on here I wouldn't even want to try.


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## steeler fan1 (Nov 4, 2011)

Timebandit said:


> jeff said:
> 
> 
> > Justturnin said:
> ...


 

Justin,
While I understand your point send the OP a pm doesn't do anyone else any good. I quite often read a thread because I had the same question. Or I'm just curious and simply file the info for future use. 

Food for thought.

Carl


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## Andrew_K99 (Nov 4, 2011)

rej19 said:


> First I have never posted about issues like this. After trying to read some of the rules about posting ads etc I can see why some may say it's not worth the effort. Of course it is not my source of income so my view is different from those who rely on sales from this site as part of their livelyhood. If something becomes so watered down with rules and regulations it tends to be to restrictive and people give up and move on. I believe that is the case here. I realize there are occasional disputes and upset people due to some vendors sprinkling in their product advertising during postings. But I think creating rules that try to stop every possible violation of this type is like throwing out the baby with the bath water. I have no problem ignoring something I don't want to read.


I've noticed other sites are busier with pen related threads since the rules came into effect.  Seems those that didn't like it did go elsewhere.

AK


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## jeff (Nov 4, 2011)

Andrew_K99 said:


> rej19 said:
> 
> 
> > First I have never posted about issues like this. After trying to read some of the rules about posting ads etc I can see why some may say it's not worth the effort. Of course it is not my source of income so my view is different from those who rely on sales from this site as part of their livelyhood. If something becomes so watered down with rules and regulations it tends to be to restrictive and people give up and move on. I believe that is the case here. I realize there are occasional disputes and upset people due to some vendors sprinkling in their product advertising during postings. But I think creating rules that try to stop every possible violation of this type is like throwing out the baby with the bath water. I have no problem ignoring something I don't want to read.
> ...



I repeatedly heard EXACTLY the same complaint when we had way *fewer* rules. 

The gripe was "you are letting people do whatever they want and it's ruining the site!"

Hard as we might try, we'll never be all things to all people.

People come and go to any organization. Trying to keep everyone happy at all times is a recipe for failure.


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## Texatdurango (Nov 4, 2011)

Andrew_K99 said:


> .......I've noticed other sites are busier with pen related threads since the rules came into effect. *Seems those that didn't like it did go elsewhere.*
> AK


 
And that's a bad thing how? 

I haven't noticed anyone dropping out of any of the conversations around here lately. Actually I've noticed MORE participation in some of the discussions. Seems like a lot of members are getting involved in the kitless pens for example and are talking it up more than ever before! I see that as a positive not a negative.


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## philb (Nov 4, 2011)

I don't know whether rules need changing or just clarifying clearly?

I know don't mention what pen supplies I use, tools I've purchased or parts Ive used. I don't know whether I'm allowed to say this is a pen made from a blank by ****? Or to recommend a supplier or person I know and have bought similar items from, but know they are ideal for the situation.


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## NewLondon88 (Nov 4, 2011)

Texatdurango said:


> I haven't noticed anyone dropping out of any of the conversations around here lately. Actually I've noticed MORE participation in some of the discussions.



The two aren't mutually exclusive. I have noticed more participation in
some threads, but less in other threads and less from people who
used to post more. Also seeing a new crop of turners chiming in for
the first time. Ch-ch-ch-ch-changes...


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## DozerMite (Nov 4, 2011)

jeff said:


> Maybe I want to change the rules and decrease the confusion. :biggrin:
> 
> Sorry, but I make adjustments based on data I collect. Maybe it's because of my profession, but improvement by definition requires change.


 

Yes, improvement requires change. Changing every few weeks is not improvement. After trying to read and understand the new rules, people gave up trying to understand them. Now changing (improving) them again, how many more will leave or stop posting? From the majority of the responses, it doesn't appear to be improved. There has been a big decrease in activity. Used to have to read a few pages a day when I logged in. Now there is maybe a page/page and a half.

I will admit, I spend more time on my wifes forums than here anymore. They have nothing to do with pens and the members consist of primarily women, but I can post something without it being taken as an ad.


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## rej19 (Nov 4, 2011)

Jeff, I was not complaining. Just saying what I believe to be the case as stated in my comment.


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## greenmtnguy (Nov 4, 2011)

It seems quite simple to me concerning classifieds and other sections. Allow a vendor to answer a direct question with a direct answer. "Yes, I make it. Do this to use it or fix it." Do not allow follow ups in classifieds such as "I got them, they are great"= shill posting. I like the mandated reply limit as you need to save your usage for legitimate replies or additions such as price reduced or only eight left.


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## jeff (Nov 4, 2011)

nativewooder said:


> I am not a vendor, but if I have a question about a type of product, say fountain pen hardware, I would expect to be able to receive PMs from vendors replying to my question.  Is this allowed?  If not, I think the rules are too tight.



Yes, they can PM you.


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## hunter-27 (Nov 4, 2011)

Justturnin said:


> jeff said:
> 
> 
> > That's an excellent point. That annoys me too. The rules require that previous customers or someone who knows the answer make the post. For little known things, we lose out.
> ...


:good: 


 If a vendor has the knowledge to share, they should do so. (Might be the only way to get the CORRECT info)  If this means they need to tell everyone that they can provide something, so be it.  On the other hand, if the vendor cannot do this tactfully, and without sounding like a "billboard", then the mods need to "manage" the vendor, not the rules.


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## jeff (Nov 4, 2011)

hunter-27 said:


> If a vendor has the knowledge to share, they should do so. (Might be the only way to get the CORRECT info)  If this means they need to tell everyone that they can provide something, so be it.  On the other hand, *if the vendor cannot do this tactfully, and without sounding like a "billboard", then the mods need to "manage" the vendor*, not the rules.



I agree, but here's the problem.

"Tactfully" and "without sounding like a billboard" are subjective. So from day to day, mod to mod, and post to post, you are going to have somewhat different decisions. 

If Vendor A feels that he was treated differently than Vendor B in a situation HE FEELS is the same, here's what happens:

Vendor A feels he's not getting equal treatment and demands it
Vendor A complains that Vendor B is getting favorable treatment
Vendor A complains that the mods are out to get him
Vendor A musters his pals for a post reporting or PM campaign
Vendor A sends me and mods insulting PMs
Vendor A pushes the envelope on his next thread just to "get even" so when vendor B complains, he's ready to say "Well you let B do it!"

This happens every day. Less now, but still happens EVEN WITH the detailed rules we have. 

I would love to depend on TACT and COURTESY and TOLERANCE and CAMARADERIE and RESPECT, however when there is money to be made, those things go out the window. It's a shame, isn't it?


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## hunter-27 (Nov 4, 2011)

jeff said:


> hunter-27 said:
> 
> 
> > If a vendor has the knowledge to share, they should do so. (Might be the only way to get the CORRECT info)  If this means they need to tell everyone that they can provide something, so be it.  On the other hand, *if the vendor cannot do this tactfully, and without sounding like a "billboard", then the mods need to "manage" the vendor*, not the rules.
> ...



Maybe only one mod to handle the issue--1 less variable in methodology

Maybe publicly post why the thread was moderated--this way everyone sees the standard used and understands that no one is "out to get" anyone and no one will be "favored"

Lock any threads that become a "post reporting or PM campaign", especially if the OP has had the question answered--should stop the reporting

Insulting PM's are already covered by the TOS I think--take needed action


Pushes the envelope on his next thread just to "get even" so when vendor B complains, he's ready to say "Well you let B do it!"--the previously mentioned "out in public" stuff should make this clear as to how it happened.

Just some thoughts that may or may not work but might be able to be applied in some aspects of it.


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## Bree (Nov 4, 2011)

I like it the way it used to be.  I think the volume of ads has dramatically diminished to the detriment of the average subscriber.  Many products that we used to see are gone now.  We lost something valuable IMHO.

Respectful conduct is something that is definable and enforceable.  It really should be self policed by the members with input from mods in extreme cases.  Vendors are privileged to be able to reach a highly targeted market here.  They should recognize that privilege and be on best behavior or expect disciplinary action... even in the case of paid ads.  There is no place for disrespect in a forum like this.

That said, the loss of free classifieds for non-commercial transactions is really quite painful.  I was very sorry to see it go.  I hope that you guys will one day reconsider.

My $.02


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## jeff (Nov 4, 2011)

Bree said:


> That said, the loss of free classifieds for non-commercial transactions is really quite painful.  I was very sorry to see it go.  I hope that you guys will one day reconsider.
> 
> My $.02



We have the FREE Deals, Trades, Gifts, and Wanted forum for selling personally owned items. Is that what you mean?


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## jeff (Nov 4, 2011)

Bree said:


> Respectful conduct is something that is definable and enforceable.  It really should be self policed by the members with input from mods in extreme cases.  Vendors are privileged to be able to reach a highly targeted market here.  They should recognize that privilege and be on best behavior or expect disciplinary action... even in the case of paid ads.  There is no place for disrespect in a forum like this.



I'd love to hear your thoughts on how to implement this. PM if you have time.

If by self-policed you mean that any member could call someone out on disrespectful or tasteless conduct, I don't see that working. There are nearly an equal number of people on both sides of most issues.


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## OOPS (Nov 4, 2011)

There were two things that bothered me as a frequent reader of this site.  One of them I believe you have made substantial progress on solving.

1.  I just hated those ads with 25 or more "PM sent."  Thank you for getting rid of that nonsense!  However, (to me, anyway) it seems still too difficult to determine which of the 20 lots of blanks are still for sale, and which are still available.  If I read your new rules correctly, it would cost a vendor more to make several different posts, than one large one, which contributes to the clutter.  It would be easier for the potential buyers perspective if the items were listed separately, then the whole ad can be pulled once the item is sold.  Just my two cents here.

2.  I don't mind other members offering solutions, suggestions and help, then having their web site links in their signature area.  After all, if they are willing to take the time to help those who are less experienced, we might want to visit their website and thank them for their kindness by making a purchase.  What I really object to, however, is the billboard-sized signatures that take up way too much space.  One member (who I won't identify) seemed to take great delight in his new billboard and couldn't wait to display it over and over.  Each new post had a reply from this individual, which basically said "nice pen" or "great idea" followed by this giant ad for his website.  Now, this individual has calmed down substantially since then, and I just decided I wouldn't purchase from this person.  But it would be nice if they could say that they make blanks, sell kits, etc, without having a huge multi-colored display ad on their signature line.  

Finally, I know that many people in this day and age can't wait to complain about something.  If you tried to fix every problem based upon a complaint or two, you'd do nothing but change the rules back and forth.  I tend to prefer less regulation instead of more, as people who are offended by some posts can always decide to move to the next one, instead of read it and report it to the moderator as offensive.  

Overall, I think this site is really quite good, much better than most sites with this many members.


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## BRobbins629 (Nov 4, 2011)

I voted don't care as what ever changes there are will not significantly affect what I read and what I post.  My wishes would be that the apparent pettiness among some of the vendors would stop.  I don't know specifically who they are but they would be the ones continually pressing the yellow triangles and sending pms to the mods.  If that stopped, than maybe the rules could be relaxed a little and some of the silliness would abate.  So tell me when that happens and I will change my vote to "relax the rules".


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## jeff (Nov 4, 2011)

philbaldwin said:


> I don't know whether rules need changing or just clarifying clearly?
> 
> I know don't mention what pen supplies I use, tools I've purchased or parts Ive used. I don't know whether I'm allowed to say this is a pen made from a blank by ****? Or to recommend a supplier or person I know and have bought similar items from, but know they are ideal for the situation.



I don't know what would lead you to believe that you cannot do either one of those things. Point me to that section of the rules and I will remove or clarify it because BOTH of those things are perfectly fine. :biggrin:

Thanks for the comment!


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## Texatdurango (Nov 4, 2011)

jeff said:


> ........I agree, but here's the problem........
> 
> Vendor A feels he's not getting equal treatment and demands it
> Vendor A complains that Vendor B is getting favorable treatment
> ...


 
*Jeff, With ALL due respect, what the hell is vendor A still doing here?* 

To actually have someone continually send you insulting PM's then to let them stay on to continue causing problems is beyond me. Why? Is one individual THAT important to the well being of the forum that you and the mods have to put up with this petty nonsense every day? 

I can remember a time when the ONLY thing I can recall being sold on the forum was was TSW (remember that stuff, that was about as controversial as it got! ) and the forum did just fine, now several people would have us believe the forum would fold like a house of cards if a vendor or two were to leave or be ejected. This forum wasn't built on the ability to buy from fellow members and it won't be the downfall for the lack of buying oppurtunities either. I don't think members will suffer for the lack of having a place to buy their supplies, there's ALWAYS a place to buy anything!

I think if the one or the few who are giving you the most grief were let go and word got around, then perhaps the others would look at the money they are making and think....... being a pain in the butt isn't worth loosing this income, I think I'll straighten up.

You're constantly searching for answers, this hasn't been tried yet, perhaps it might just work! Now it's my turn to get a few nasty PM's for rocking the boat! :biggrin:


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## Smitty37 (Nov 4, 2011)

*Don't answer*

Some of you may know that I am a vendor. I do not respond at all to questions such as "what is the best..." "who has the lowest prices on ..." or "where can I get..." even if they involve a product that I am the only seller for. Generally speaking I've even quit reading them.

I am not willing to spend a whole lot of my time trying to figure out if I can give an answer that will pass muster. I get more than enough "moderation" to suit me without going into any of that.

With regard to whether or not I can answer .... I don't think that can be fixed by rule.  Who is a vendor?  One who supports IAP by advertising?  One who has been listed as a vendor (I'm not by the way)?  One who ran a few ads and sold some blanks last year?  One who sells but does not advertise?  Sellers of opportunity who find a great piece of wood every now and then and share?  All of the above?


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## Bree (Nov 4, 2011)

jeff said:


> Bree said:
> 
> 
> > That said, the loss of free classifieds for non-commercial transactions is really quite painful.  I was very sorry to see it go.  I hope that you guys will one day reconsider.
> ...



Ooops  I never really noticed this.  I just kinda naturally look for the classifieds.  Of course the fact that I missed it is significant in some way though I am not totally sure what it is!  LOL!  Sorry about that.


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## Bree (Nov 4, 2011)

jeff said:


> Bree said:
> 
> 
> > Respectful conduct is something that is definable and enforceable.  It really should be self policed by the members with input from mods in extreme cases.  Vendors are privileged to be able to reach a highly targeted market here.  They should recognize that privilege and be on best behavior or expect disciplinary action... even in the case of paid ads.  There is no place for disrespect in a forum like this.
> ...



Self policing occurs when subscribers "remind" people acting poorly that they are outside the boundary of good conduct and the rules.  Happens under the mod radar for the most part though mods can see it.  Minimizes mod time and makes the mod job easier.  They really only interject when situations start getting out of control.

As for methods to enforce good conduct on vendors... $$$ is what they understand... that is their language.  Act disrespectfully or violate rules of fair play... your next x number of ads are surcharged.  EZ to publish a basic list of surcharges and for extraordinary situations Mgmt can zing you extra as befits the situation.  You are paying the bills and you have the right.  

When the cost of ads is bumped because of stupid behavior one of two things is going to happen... the stupidity stops quickly or they go act stupidly somewhere else.  In either case, you have solved your problem and done so in a relatively painless way.

Anyhoo that is one idea that might have some traction.


PS  Long time subscribers with excellent behavior can be "rewarded" for sensible self policing efforts.  Good for them and good for you.


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## Displaced Canadian (Nov 4, 2011)

If we were all exactly the same this would be easier. :biggrin: I think it would be good if a vendor could answer questions about a product because they are kinda the experts on it. However finding a way to do this that all would see as helping and not advertising is a more difficult issue. I think the new format is cleaner looks more like a newspaper and no longer like a bulletin board.


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## avbill (Nov 4, 2011)

jeff,  there was a discussion about  taps & die  in relationship to kitless pens.  Some one answered the question with a private email to the author of the question.    It left me in out in the cold-- about the answer of the question.  Some how it needs to be revisited [the rules] that is.


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## MesquiteMan (Nov 5, 2011)

I think some folks are reading too much into the rules.  There is nothing there that prevents a vendor from answering questions related to something they sell.  They just can not answer questions about where to get something with a reply that they sell it.  If someone has a question about stabilizing, I am permitted to answer that question.  If someone has a specific questions about my brand of stabilizing resin, I can also answer the question.  I just can not turn my answer into an advertisement.


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## Russianwolf (Nov 5, 2011)

If I have a question, or an answer, I'll post it. I;ll leave it to the mods to decide if it fits the rules. delete it and move on. I'm not going to waste too much time on it.

I don't sell directly much, but do sell in bulk to a vendor.


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## trickydick (Nov 5, 2011)

I think the rules should stay as is for a little longer.  Let them settle in for another month or so.

The forum does seem quiet and I do think members are worried about breaking the rules and we may be missing out on important information from some folks.  Not sure how to make it better without going back to where we started.

I do know that I can always PM some of our excellent vendors and get answers to questions I may have.


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## mtgrizzly52 (Nov 5, 2011)

Russianwolf said:


> If I have a question, or an answer, I'll post it. I;ll leave it to the mods to decide if it fits the rules. delete it and move on. I'm not going to waste too much time on it.



I normally refuse to get involved in these discussions because it can become a "he says-she says" waste of time, but I really didn't find any problems with the previous rules. I'll be honest, there are some vendors that I really like and are more than willing to do business with, and there are others that...well not so much. For those that I generally don't buy from, I normally don't look at their ads. 

I feel like Mike (Russianwolf) that if I have a question, need an answer, or want to make a general comment, I'm going to do it, keeping in mind the importance of respecting all members of the forum. If the modulators take exception to my post, I fully expect to hear from them in private what their objections are, and they have the right to delete my post.

The most important thing that has to be remembered here is, we are all adults, we need to treat each other with the utmost respect at all times (which by the way is what makes IAP the best forum I've ever been associated with) and yes, rules are important and need to be followed, but not be so strict, or complicated that those rules restrict the wonderful interactions that occur on IAP.

Rick (mtgrizzly52)


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## hehndc (Nov 5, 2011)

To me, things seem too quiet.  PMs keep others out of the loop.  Some folks just seem bitchy to me and I guess the Mods just got tired of it (can't blame they/you for the changes.

Anyway, I liked it better the other way, but I don't have to put up with all the behind the scenes. 

Do what you think is best for IAP and all will be well.

Just my two cents.

Jeff. thanks for asking.

Steve


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## jeff (Nov 5, 2011)

My sincere thanks to you all for your thoughtful comments.

As much as I'd like to instantly turn a switch and make things better, the best I can do is tell you that I will ask the manager and mods to put their thinking caps on and we'll see what tweaks might be appropriate.

In the meantime, I'd encourage everyone to reread the rules for product reference before you assume that something is not allowed! Feel free to PM me if you have a question about the rules as well.

Keep in mind that what we INTENDED was to throttle back on the behavior of 0.001% of the members and make things more pleasant for everyone, not squash conversation in general. As they say, "the road to hell is paved with good intentions" so I apologize if we've missed the mark. We'll get there!

Everyone have a great weekend.


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