# Trying something new



## NewLondon88 (Jul 3, 2010)

Been dying to try this out for a while now, but couldn't find shop time.
I don't think I'll try it again.. took 2 hours to laser!
6063 Aluminum with ceramic marker. Creative Dimensions blank
called Renaissance. Ok, I tried it .. now I'm over it. :tongue:

.


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## David Keller (Jul 3, 2010)

It looks great.  What's the problem with two hours of laser time?  Do you have to pedal the entire time to keep the laser up and running?


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## skiprat (Jul 3, 2010)

David Keller said:


> It looks great. What's the problem with two hours of laser time? Do you have to pedal the entire time to keep the laser up and running?


 

ROTFLMAO!!!!!:rotfl:


Well, I think it was time well spent Charlie and it looks damned cool!!!:biggrin:


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## wizard (Jul 3, 2010)

Beautiful Pen !!!


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## PenMan1 (Jul 3, 2010)

Charlie! Come on! Whining about LASER time. Most of us would give up selected anatomy just to HAVE a laser!

IT IS a brilliant pen, though


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## ldb2000 (Jul 3, 2010)

Absolutely stunning pen Charlie . Your two hours was very well spent .


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## NewLondon88 (Jul 3, 2010)

David Keller said:


> Do you have to pedal the entire time to keep the laser up and running?



Not normally, but Alton took the day off.  

.. that slacker.. :tongue:

I was hoping to try it in anodized aluminum, but my anodizing skills are ..
... um .. sub par. So I was hoping that with a highly polished aluminum
blank and a ceramic marking spray I'd get the high contrast I wanted.
This is the closest I got, after sanding off the marker several times. (you
can see that the bottom is over-sanded by now)

I might try it one more time, oversanding again and then casting in clear.
That way I could build up a clear coating to protect the ceramic marker.
Might need to try a different marking spray, too .. but they get almost
$100 for one of those 12 ounce spray cans!   (with shipping)

I was hoping to make these available, but for that 2 hours the laser can't
be unattended, and I can't use any other equipment because of the
power fluctuations. Watching the laser beam with your remaining eye is
only interesting for the first few minutes. So they're not commercially
viable.

Thanks for the comments, guys!


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## Bree (Jul 3, 2010)

A real stunner!  Great job!
:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:


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## Ligget (Jul 3, 2010)

Amazing, time well spent indeed!


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## Sylvanite (Jul 3, 2010)

It takes a few tries with each new metal (and thickness of metal) to get the laser settings dialed in for a successful Cermark (or Thermark).  It looks like you managed to get a very nice mark in the end, though.

Stainless steel marks much more easily than aluminum, and brushed aluminum easier than polished aluminum.  If you really want a challenge, try brass.  The mark will hold up better (and show higher contrast) if you clear-coat it afterwards.

If you can find the high-tack Cermark in a 12-oz spray can, please let me know where.  My regular source only has it in 250g paste that must be thinned before spraying.  Also, it's classified as a "hazardous material", so that adds an extra $25.00 to the cost.

Regards,
Eric


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## skiprat (Jul 3, 2010)

Is a ceramic marker just a marker that can write on ceramics, or is it something else? 
If it's just a permenant marker, then why did you choose that instead of paint? A metallic blue or red spray paint would look cool. 

I'm embarrassed to admit that I recently ruined two cool 3D Creative Dimension blanks:redface: I oversanded a 'Split Infinities' and had a catch while trimming the one with the 'diamond grip' and the stag on it. ( can't remember what it was called)

My daughter ( that is very arty) is doing a great job on an 'Aloha' and a 'Grapevine' though. ( I'll take the credit though!!!:devil: :biggrin: ) I'll post pics once she finishes them.


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## NewLondon88 (Jul 3, 2010)

Sylvanite said:


> If you can find the high-tack Cermark in a 12-oz spray can, please let me know where.  My regular source only has it in 250g paste that must be thinned before spraying.  Also, it's classified as a "hazardous material", so that adds an extra $25.00 to the cost.



I'll take the paste over the spray can, considering that the can stops
spraying after about 1/10th of a can is used..  With the paste, I can
mix it with DNA and spray with an airbrush. No hazmat charges. But a 250g
jar must still be close to $150 or so.  ouch.

Clear coat is needed, yes. I used some lacquer just to get the photo. But
the Cermark will come right off. 30W, 100% power and .5 speed.
At 2% speed, it RINSED off  at .5 I'll need to wipe. .but it isn't bonded.


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## NewLondon88 (Jul 3, 2010)

skiprat said:


> Is a ceramic marker just a marker that can write on ceramics, or is it something else?



Sorry..   here's a link. http://www.cermarc.com/    It is a ceramic powder
suspended in some super duper secret formula and patented out the
wazoo. In fact, if you laser metal using your own concoction, they'll
come after you. Worse than the Mattress Police.



skiprat said:


> I'm embarrassed to admit that I recently ruined two cool 3D Creative Dimension blanks:redface: I oversanded a 'Split Infinities' and had a catch while trimming the one with the 'diamond grip' and the stag on it. ( can't remember what it was called)



I'll take a look .. might have some blanks left. I was in the middle of
trying to mix a fluorescent pigment powder with CA to make a paste
and cram it into the nooks-and-crannies of the Split Infinities blank.. 
and I forget where it went or what happened to it. It was curing too
fast, though.. and besides, the resulting paste left voids..and I wanted
to paint the wood black. I thought that blank would look cool in Day-Glo
pink or orange with black wood. Far out, man.



skiprat said:


> My daughter ( that is very arty) is doing a great job on an 'Aloha' and a 'Grapevine' though. ( I'll take the credit though!!!:devil: :biggrin: ) I'll post pics once she finishes them.



She has more patience than I do .. Alton does, too. My eyes start to
cross when I try to look at that fine detail while I hold a big honkin paint
brush. I can see it fine on the monitor, but not so much in my hand.
Then again, I have to photograph my pens so I can blow them up on the
monitor to see them. :tongue:

Go ahead.. take credit. We'll know the truth..:biggrin:  You going to cast or CA?


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## GaryMGg (Jul 3, 2010)

Two hours on a laser. Why don't you just carve it by hand?!? :biggrin:
That's a mighty fine looking piece of work! Very


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## btboone (Jul 3, 2010)

It doesn't work well on aluminum.  It does work fine on stainless and titanium.  I run my 130 watt at 90% power and 100% speed.  I use the can.  I also dip the nozzle in my ultrasonic cleaner after each spray.  Just soaking it in water is better than not doing anything.


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## Pioneerpens (Jul 3, 2010)

Stunning Pen Charlie!


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## skiprat (Jul 3, 2010)

NewLondon88 said:


> I'll take a look .. might have some blanks left. .....................
> ................. You going to cast or CA?


 
Charlie, please don't worry, I am already seriously indebted to you anyway:wink:

I'm thinking of clear casting because I'm not really a big fan of the Sierra. I'm not trying to blow smoke up your skirt, but I honestly believe these blanks deserve better than a Sierra. :tongue:


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## BRobbins629 (Jul 3, 2010)

Looks nice to me.  2 hours on a machine is a small price to pay.


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## Sylvanite (Jul 3, 2010)

NewLondon88 said:


> I'll take the paste over the spray can, considering that the can stops
> spraying after about 1/10th of a can is used..  With the paste, I can
> mix it with DNA and spray with an airbrush. No hazmat charges. But a 250g
> jar must still be close to $150 or so.  ouch.


The spray can must be kept well shaken, or else it tends to clog up.  If you let it sit for a day or so, it will often start spraying again.  I usually get about 3/4 of the way through a can before it starts misbehaving.

When using the paste, be sure to stir it up before mixing a batch with DNA.  I'm told the pigment can settle out even in paste form.  Also, I've found that airbrushing puts on a much thinner and wetter coat than the spray can.  With brass, that can be a problem because it tarnishes the metal.  It can take a few coats to equal the application thickness of the spray can.  It's very important for the cermark coating to be fully dry before engraving (I let the piece sit for an hour after spraying).

The can is much more convenient, and is an ORM-D material (no hazmat charge).  The paste is classified as a paint and does incur a hazmat fee (at least from laserbits).



> Clear coat is needed, yes. I used some lacquer just to get the photo. But
> the Cermark will come right off. 30W, 100% power and .5 speed.
> At 2% speed, it RINSED off  at .5 I'll need to wipe. .but it isn't bonded.


What DPI are you using?  I get much better results at 1000dpi.  If your registration is repeatable, it also helps to engrave more than once.  I have a 60W laser and have gotten a good, durable mark on solid aluminum at 75% power, 25% speed (with one pass).

Regards,
Eric


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## NewLondon88 (Jul 3, 2010)

Sylvanite said:


> What DPI are you using?  I get much better results at 1000dpi.  If your registration is repeatable, it also helps to engrave more than once.  I have a 60W laser and have gotten a good, durable mark on solid aluminum at 75% power, 25% speed (with one pass).
> 
> Regards,
> Eric



ouch .. I don't even want to know how long it would take at 1000dpi!
Cermark says to run at 100% power and use your laser power as your speed.
(25W laser, use 25 speed..  50 watt, use 50 speed etc.) but that hasn't
worked for me.

I stir, shake, thin with DNA and spray lightly. Just till I can't see the
reflection of the aluminum. They say that a thicker coating will inhibit
the laser's ability to reach the metal.
FWIW, I have both the spray and the paste, but they seem identical
except for the drying time.


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## Sylvanite (Jul 3, 2010)

NewLondon88 said:


> ouch .. I don't even want to know how long it would take at 1000dpi!


If you double the dpi and double the speed, you should wind up with the same amount of laser time (twice as many lines, but each one is twice as fast).  I get much better results - particularly for large black areas and horizontal lines - at 25% speed and 1000dpi than i get at 12% speed and 500dpi.  For highly conductive metals (such as aluminum and especially brass), you need to generate a lot of heat.  Higher dpi seems to do that better than slower speed.  

Perhaps it's just my cheap airbrush, but when I thin the paste enough to flow well, I need 2 or 3 coats to equal the application thickness of the spray can. 

Regards,
Eric


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## JohnU (Jul 4, 2010)

Tried?..... Success!


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## NewLondon88 (Jul 4, 2010)

Sylvanite said:


> For highly conductive metals (such as aluminum and especially brass), you need to generate a lot of heat.  Higher dpi seems to do that better than slower speed.



Have you had any trouble with the heat spreading out to areas that you
don't want marked? I had some areas of fine detail that seemed to suck
in the heat from the laser pointing near/next to it. And since (so far) I'm
not getting a good bond, I can't scrub anything because it will come off
of the areas where I DO want it.

For instance, if I do lettering on a black background area, the entire block
turns black. Rinsing and washing with a paint brush will display SOME of
the lettering, but as the lettering gets clearer, the surrounding black area
starts to wash away, too. This means that .5 speed still is too fast for
the marker to 'take'. Had no trouble with steel, but tungsten, chrome
and aluminum are making me tear my hair out. But for this blank, I just
need it to stick long enough to cast in resin.
Nothing is open today, so I should get some shop time in :biggrin:


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## johncrane (Jul 4, 2010)

Well worth the time Charlie! looks great from here.


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## kruzzer (Jul 4, 2010)

It dosen't get much better than that... great job...


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## workinforwood (Jul 4, 2010)

I don't know about all the technical jargin, but it's a killer looking blank that was totally worth 2 hrs of time!  What you need now is to ditch that kit and build a new one out of aluminum!


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## NewLondon88 (Jul 4, 2010)

I dont' really have any way to make metal parts .. no tools or knowledge. But I did
try Skip's idea of doing the ceramic marking on a Jr. 2:02:30 PER TUBE!
(that's on top of the time to make the aluminum blank.)

gently washed them off, rinsed in DNA and gently put them in a ResinSaver and poured.
Even then, I think I wiped off some of the marker..


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## corian king (Jul 4, 2010)

Beautiful Pen!! Well worth the time spent..
JIM


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## phillywood (Jul 4, 2010)

I sthis some new technique from out of space or was i not born on time?
some one bring me to the right page plz? 
Now $100.0 for the spray then how much you sell the darn thing for to make up for the initial cost?


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## NewLondon88 (Jul 4, 2010)

phillywood said:


> I sthis some new technique from out of space or was i not born on time?
> some one bring me to the right page plz?
> Now $100.0 for the spray then how much you sell the darn thing for to make up for the initial cost?



LOL ..  not all that new, but I haven't seen anyone doing it on pens yet.
I'm using the same pattern we use for some of the 3D blanks, but I'm
making aluminum pen blanks, spraying on a ceramic marker that turns
black and bonds to the metal when you hit it with a laser. and yeah, the
spray is outrageously expensive.

Can't sell these.. they'd be prohibitively expensive. $75 for the spray, a few
bucks for the aluminum, about two hours to cut, drill, turn and sand two
tubes, 4 hours to laser two tubes, overnight to cast in resin, then turn
the blanks, $20,000 for a decent laser .. :tongue:


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## Sylvanite (Jul 5, 2010)

NewLondon88 said:


> Have you had any trouble with the heat spreading out to areas that you
> don't want marked? I had some areas of fine detail that seemed to suck
> in the heat from the laser pointing near/next to it. And since (so far) I'm
> not getting a good bond, I can't scrub anything because it will come off
> of the areas where I DO want it.


I've noticed that effect when marking steel and compensate by making white areas a little larger.  On brass, it hasn't been a problem for me so far.  When I went from 300dpi to 500dpi, my image detail improved.  Going from 500dpi to 1000dpi on brass, I got better adhesion and more solid blacks.  The dpi made a difference when power and speed didn't.

It took me a lot of experimenting (and a lot of cermark) to get a good mark, but it is strong enough to withstand polishing.  Text comes out durable enough to resist steel wool.  On brass, ammonia-based polishes (such as Brasso) damage the mark, so I still powder-coat over it.

Regards,
Eric


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## Sylvanite (Jul 5, 2010)

workinforwood said:


> ...it's a killer looking blank that was totally worth 2 hrs of time!



Well, it's not uncommon to see laser-time billed at $1.00/minute or more, so that makes things pretty expensive.

Regards,
Eric


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## Sylvanite (Jul 5, 2010)

NewLondon88 said:


> ...  not all that new, but I haven't seen anyone doing it on pens yet.


Yours is the first full wrap-around mark on an aluminum barrel that I've seen, but I have offered laser-marking (flat and rotary) on my bullet pen kits for a couple of years.  The cost of the spray, the engraving time, and the fact that I have to do a special production run (to laser before powdercoating) lead me to price it at $10.00 and up.

Regards,
Eric


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